CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[CountValentine]

No, you never responded to the point. Will post again.

No problem. I don't look at it as a malicious slur. Rage and or vengeance would be normal human reactions.
You believe other factors explain the "why" the mistake was made. I just disagree.

Now when the term "scared" is used is when I take issue. 

[CountValentine]

But perhaps our disagreement then is talmudic in nature.

That is between you and YOUR religion.
Has nothing to do with me. 

[jj1000]

My initial wording explained why I thought the MISTAKE was made. You want to disagree with the "why" that is fair gave.

Trying to twist it as I am blaming the soldiers is not fair.

I was surprised to see @Dan join the EC some time ago. Please don't do the same. 

I think everyone is on the same page arguing about why the mistake was made.

Depending on what the why is, will lend credence to fault, and why the mistake was made.

If the why is based on vengeance it's one thing if it was based on their protocol it's another etc.

[CountValentine]

I think everyone is on the same page arguing about why the mistake was made.

Depending on what the why is, will lend credence to fault, and why the mistake was made.

If the why is based on vengeance it's one thing if it was based on their protocol it's another etc.

Fair but at no point in the conversation was I blaming the soldier's contrary to what others claim.

[EliJelly]

My issue with the EC is not so much with what is being said but with the results of it. The constant jumping on with farentfering/spinning/kvetching without leaving any time for the actual news to be consumed, discussed and digested, voids the entire thread of its intellectual and mature conversation. It has become a one sided conversation for just a few to constantly express their feelings and emotions, discouraging many others to partake and contribute.

[jj1000]

Fair but at no point in the conversation was I blaming the soldier's contrary to what others claim.

Understood.

But it's not a far leap when many people online have been blaming IDF soldiers for a lot of things, and when someone online says they killed them while out for vengeance, it can be interpreted as they are to blame.

i.e., if they weren't there for vengeance, it wouldn't have happened.

That can be true for any reason or context given.

[yelped]

My issue with the EC is not so much with what is being said but with the results of it. The constant jumping on with farentfering/spinning/kvetching without leaving any time for the actual news to be consumed, discussed and digested, voids the entire thread of its intellectual and mature conversation. It has become a one sided conversation for just a few to constantly express their feelings and emotions, discouraging many others to partake and contribute.

You're defaming here.

You can enter and say whatever you want.

If what you call spinning/jumping on etc the example you gave on this thread, then that it simply wrong.

A big component of this war is not what you would call "actual news". The primary war being fought is the propaganda war and that is what all the worldwide events being presented in the thread is about. If you want only "Israel took out this commander" style news, you have a thread for that. This thread is for the wider discussion of the war.

[CountValentine]

I bet @Yo ssi is happy this convo isn't in the random post thread. 

[Yehuda57]

The primary war being fought is the propaganda war and that is what all the worldwide events being presented in the thread is about.

What? No, the primary and only war being fought is the war to prevent Jews from being killed. Everything else is noise. Everything, literally everything, has to be seen from that lens.

Should Israel retaliate against Iran or not? What will lead to fewer of its citizens getting killed.
Should Israel allow trucks of aid to enter Gaza? Will that lead to more citizens getting killed?
Should Israel attack a military target that also has civilians without warning? Will that lead to fewer dead Jews?

That's it. everyone can tweet, holler, and yell all they want. That is the only calculus under which they should be operating. And before ya'll jump on me that it's not so simple and there are global political implications, like Golda Meir said after the Yom Kippur war, prioritizing global political good will "or whatever" instead of the prudent life saving option is a "big mistake".

Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.

Israel exists. Israel has the obligation to defend itself.

That's it.

[CountValentine]

Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.

Israel exists. Israel has the obligation to defend itself.

That's it.

?

[yelped]

What? No, the primary and only war being fought is the war to prevent Jews from being killed. Everything else is noise. Everything, literally everything, has to be seen from that lens.

Should Israel retaliate against Iran or not? What will lead to fewer of its citizens getting killed.
Should Israel allow trucks of aid to enter Gaza? Will that lead to more citizens getting killed?
Should Israel attack a military target that also has civilians without warning? Will that lead to fewer dead Jews?

That's it. everyone can tweet, holler, and yell all they want. That is the only calculus under which they should be operating. And before ya'll jump on me that it's not so simple and there are global political implications, like Golda Meir said after the Yom Kippur war, prioritizing global political good will "or whatever" instead of the prudent life saving option is a "big mistake".

Israel doesn't have the right to exist. Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.

Israel exists. Israel has the obligation to defend itself.

That's it.

I don't disagree.

[Yehuda57]

I don't disagree.

Yet you fall for the same fallacy that so many of us do. That there is a pr war. That Israel is terrible at pr. That if only we had a few more Douglas Murrays......

It's all noise.

[yelped]

Yet you fall for the same fallacy that so many of us do. That there is a pr war. That Israel is terrible at pr. That if only we had a few more Douglas Murrays......

It's all noise.

Not really. I posted this several times. There are 2 parts here. A. We should ignore all the noise and do the right thing. B. The pressure prevents Israel from doing the right thing even though it should be ignored. This is where efforts can help, to a degree.

[Yehuda57]

?

What's the question?

[CountValentine]

What's the question?

You posted Israel doesn't and I thought it should be does.

[Dan]

Yet you fall for the same fallacy that so many of us do. That there is a pr war. That Israel is terrible at pr. That if only we had a few more Douglas Murrays......

It's all noise.

I'm not sure you're right about that. Does Biden feel the same pressure to keep Bibi on a short leash if Israel was winning the PR war?
I'd say no.

[CountValentine]

Yet you fall for the same fallacy that so many of us do. That there is a pr war.

Do you believe the PR war has no influence?

[Yehuda57]

You posted Israel doesn't and I thought it should be does.

Did you read the next line?
Israel doesn't have the right to exist. It does exist.

You'll be hard pressed to find politicians using that phrase about Ukraine. I found Biden saying it at the UN, but that's about it. It's not a question to anyone (besides Putin), it's simply a matter of fact that doesn't need to be stated. Ukraine exists.

[CountValentine]

Did you read the next line?

Yes but I was confused.
First line others are saying and next line you are saying.

[Dan]

I'm not sure you're right about that. Does Biden feel the same pressure to keep Bibi on a short leash if Israel was winning the PR war?
I'd say no.

The practical difference here is obvious. The noisemakers have prevented Israel from entering Rafah and finishing the job.