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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: IGBES on January 03, 2019, 09:22:35 AM

Title: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: IGBES on January 03, 2019, 09:22:35 AM

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 03, 2019, 09:40:36 AM
Crazy
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cmey on January 03, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
Crazy

I’ve heard this before but אינו דומה שמיעה לראיה. This is one video that ought to go viral...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: tzifanya54 on January 03, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
Is it only a problem on the low end? Or is this potentially a problem even for $100-$150 ones?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: stooges44 on January 03, 2019, 10:20:39 AM
I know I'm opening a can of worms here but how can they publicly name the stores that are selling the pasul ones?

The message and point of the video/investigation is clear but why the public shaming?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 10:20:39 AM
Is it only a problem on the low end? Or is this potentially a problem even for $100-$150 ones?

Fwiu, low end only. Even an untrained eye can quickly see the difference
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: tzifanya54 on January 03, 2019, 10:23:45 AM
I know I'm opening a can of worms here but how can they publicly name the stores that are selling the pasul ones?

The message and point of the video/investigation is clear but why the public shaming?
To save others from the same fate....
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 03, 2019, 10:40:15 AM
To save others from the same fate....
#ButTheyAreYidden
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
I know I'm opening a can of worms here but how can they publicly name the stores that are selling the pasul ones?

The message and point of the video/investigation is clear but why the public shaming?

I am happy he did it. When I was purchasing mezuzahs for myself, not mivtzoim, I was unable to spend too much money. I went to one of the places in the video and ordered one expensive mezuzah and the rest mivtzoim mezuzahs. The salesman tried to dissuade me from buying the cheaper ones. He said they were 100% kosher, l'chatchilah, only that they were cheap and not good quality. In that situation, my plan was to buy the cheap ones and in time replace them with better ones.

The first time I got them checked, they were all pasul. Not kosher b'dieved, not some of them ok, some not. All pasul. I was furious. As much as I was at fault for cheaping out on the mitzvah, and I certainly should have splurged, he did assure me they were 100% kosher l'chatchilah.

The "expensive" mezuzah (~$150 IIRC) was impeccable. It has been checked by 3 different sofrim over the years, and they have not found even the tiniest blemish.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yitzgar on January 03, 2019, 11:09:41 AM
#ButTheyAreYidden
As are the victims
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: coralsnake on January 03, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
I once lived in an apartment building in Brooklyn and noticed one day that my clear mezuzah cases looked like something other than a mezuzah was in them. So I opened it up and low and behold someone had stolen the mezuzah and replaced it with a piece of white cardboard paper.

I told my non religious Israeli neighbors accross the hall to check theirs (since their cases were non transparent) and theirs had been stolen as well.

I knew it was likely the other neighbors nasty teenager who did it.

Such a shame.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yitzgar on January 03, 2019, 11:15:53 AM
I once lived in an apartment building in Brooklyn and noticed one day that my clear mezuzah cases looked like something other than a mezuzah was in them. So I opened it up and low and behold someone had stolen the mezuzah and replaced it with a piece of white cardboard paper.

I told my non religious Israeli neighbors accross the hall to check theirs (since their cases were non transparent) and theirs had been stolen as well.

I knew it was likely the other neighbors nasty teenager who did it.

Such a shame.
Unfortunately a common issue especially in apartment buildings, especially in NY
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: gingyguy on January 03, 2019, 11:23:59 AM
Seems like a whole lot of mekach taus...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 03, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
I can kinda understand the places like Judaica World and Hamafitz Judaica, they can say they trusted their supplier(s) and didn't know better. But a place like Hasofer where safrus is their main business should've known better.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 12:24:55 PM
Many other sofrim have reviewed these pictures and (taking into account the limitations of the pictures) said that many of those he said are passul, are actually kosher (bedieved).

Having said that, when you pay $30 for a mezzuzah, you are going to get, at the very best, a questionable product.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ushdadude on January 03, 2019, 12:29:06 PM
#ButTheyAreYidden
so was that butcher in monsey
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 12:39:07 PM
Many other sofrim have reviewed these pictures and (taking into account the limitations of the pictures) said that many of those he said are passul, are actually kosher (bedieved).

Having said that, when you pay $30 for a mezzuzah, you are going to get, at the very best, a questionable product.

Oh come on. Even if ALL were kosher, but only b'dieved, it's still awful. When I'm buying a mezuzah, I'm looking for a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. Don't tell me it's my fault for only spending $30. If $30 is not enough to get a kosher mezuzah, don't sell mezuzahs for $30. How is a SOFER selling a mezuzah that is not 100% kosher l'chatchilah not theft?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 03, 2019, 12:47:27 PM
Oh come on. Even if ALL were kosher, but only b'dieved, it's still awful. When I'm buying a mezuzah, I'm looking for a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. Don't tell me it's my fault for only spending $30. If $30 is not enough to get a kosher mezuzah, don't sell mezuzahs for $30. How is a SOFER selling a mezuzah that is not 100% kosher l'chatchilah not theft?
Although I am hesitant to bash mochrim in general, this is a pretty valid point.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 12:52:35 PM
Oh come on. Even if ALL were kosher, but only b'dieved, it's still awful. When I'm buying a mezuzah, I'm looking for a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. Don't tell me it's my fault for only spending $30. If $30 is not enough to get a kosher mezuzah, don't sell mezuzahs for $30. How is a SOFER selling a mezuzah that is not 100% kosher l'chatchilah not theft?

If the guy told you it is kosher l'chatchila then he stole from you, but when people ask for the cheapest possible mezzuzah, then it is going to be b'dieved (and anyone who didn't know that before now was burying their own head in the sand). The fact that one sofer who checked them said they are passul does not mean that the one who sold them agrees.

Again, I agree that passul mezzuzas being sold and the ones who sell them should answer for their actions, but this video went to far to the other extreme by using a sofer that is more machmir.

I'm just calling for a little bit of nuance.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 03, 2019, 01:03:08 PM
If the guy told you it is kosher l'chatchila then he stole from you, but when people ask for the cheapest possible mezzuzah, then it is going to be b'dieved (and anyone who didn't know that before now was burying their own head in the sand). The fact that one sofer who checked them said they are passul does not mean that the one who sold them agrees.

Again, I agree that passul mezzuzas being sold and the ones who sell them should answer for their actions, but this video went to far to the other extreme by using a sofer that is more machmir.

I'm just calling for a little bit of nuance.
Also a valid point! Bravo!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 01:10:10 PM
If the guy told you it is kosher l'chatchila then he stole from you, but when people ask for the cheapest possible mezzuzah, then it is going to be b'dieved (and anyone who didn't know that before now was burying their own head in the sand). The fact that one sofer who checked them said they are passul does not mean that the one who sold them agrees.

Again, I agree that passul mezzuzas being sold and the ones who sell them should answer for their actions, but this video went to far to the other extreme by using a sofer that is more machmir.

I'm just calling for a little bit of nuance.
Firstly he says a second sofer checked them.

See upthread - I 100% was expecting a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. I even discussed it with the salesman (who is a sofer) and he made no mention that they would not be 100% kosher.

If you tell me it costs $35, that's what I think it should cost. Don't accuse people of burying their heads in the sand when you're not telling people that if you only spend $35 the mezuzah is not going to be kosher l'chatchila.

Machon Stam charges $42 for their cheapest mezuzahs. (according to their website) They were all kosher, even according to this extremely machmir sofer.

I'm all for nuance. But this is theft. Plain and simple.

ETA: apparently he is not willing to have these mezuzahs checked by independent sofrim. But I stand by claim that they all selling these mezuzahs under false pretenses based on personal experience.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yitzgar on January 03, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
Firstly he says a second sofer checked them.

See upthread - I 100% was expecting a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. I even discussed it with the salesman (who is a sofer) and he made no mention that they would not be 100% kosher.

If you tell me it costs $35, that's what I think it should cost. Don't accuse people of burying their heads in the sand when you're not telling people that if you only spend $35 the mezuzah is not going to be kosher l'chatchila.

Machon Stam charges $42 for their cheapest mezuzahs. (according to their website) They were all kosher, even according to this extremely machmir sofer.

I'm all for nuance. But this is theft. Plain and simple.
The mocher should tell buyers whether it is lechatchila or bdieved, but buyers should ask if he doesn't.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ushdadude on January 03, 2019, 01:37:21 PM
what's more concerning to me is that a lot of these cheaper mezuzos have eraser marks. a mezuza has to b written in order. there is no way to know if a mistake was corrected as it was written (kosher) or if it was noticed later and corrected (pasul)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 01:40:11 PM
Firstly he says a second sofer checked them.

ETA: apparently he is not willing to have these mezuzahs checked by independent sofrim.

And many sofrim have questioned those sofrim based on the pictures.

I agree with you for the most part.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2019, 02:21:25 PM
And many sofrim have questioned those sofrim based on the pictures.

I agree with you for the most part.
No self respecting sofer would give a real opinion based on a low quality picture like what you can pull from the video.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: gozalim on January 03, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
apparently the 'psulim' he mentions might be so according to AR but not necessarily  according to all poskim.

but the mocher should not have agreed to sell to 'anash' personal use...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2019, 03:37:19 PM
apparently the 'psulim' he mentions might be so according to AR but not necessarily  according to all poskim.

but the mocher should not have agreed to sell to 'anash' personal use...
Where are you getting your apparently? Which of the psulim?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 03:51:20 PM
Where are you getting your apparently? Which of the psulim?

Lubavitch WhatsApp today is using up all of the available bandwidth in the world on voice notes.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: bestwatchman on January 03, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Lubavitch WhatsApp today is using up all of the available bandwidth in the world on voice notes.
and don't forget the video itself. 60mb. Being forqarded on every group... Wish there was a way to see how many times a whatsapp video was viewed.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2019, 04:14:37 PM
Lubavitch WhatsApp today is using up all of the available bandwidth in the world on voice notes.
Nu, so someone can probably share what it is that apparently the velt is arguing with the video on specifically.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 04:19:08 PM
No self respecting sofer would give a real opinion based on a low quality picture like what you can pull from the video.

I acknowledged the limitations of a picture here -

Many other sofrim have reviewed these pictures and (taking into account the limitations of the pictures) said that many of those he said are passul, are actually kosher (bedieved).


Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 04:42:23 PM
Nu, so someone can probably share what it is that apparently the velt is arguing with the video on specifically.
In short, the issues described in the video do not pasul the mezuzah. Some issues are problematic according to the Alter Rebbe, but there is plenty to rely on that they are kosher.

This is not from examining the exact mezuzahs in the video, but from experience checking mezuzahs from the same sources.

My issue remains that it is dishonest to sell such a mezuzah to a Lubavitcher without informing the buyer that it is likely not kosher according to the Alter Rebbe.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: googwallet on January 03, 2019, 05:25:59 PM
Seems like this guy has an agenda. I'm not sure exactly what it is, maybe to make his name known? Maybe to boost sales for Machon Stam?
He goes way too far by listing the name of each sofer behind the stores and showing the pictures of each. He's a total fraud in my opinion.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2019, 05:42:54 PM
In short, the issues described in the video do not pasul the mezuzah. Some issues are problematic according to the Alter Rebbe, but there is plenty to rely on that they are kosher.

This is not from examining the exact mezuzahs in the video, but from experience checking mezuzahs from the same sources.

My issue remains that it is dishonest to sell such a mezuzah to a Lubavitcher without informing the buyer that it is likely not kosher according to the Alter Rebbe.
Letters touching is not a universal psul?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 03, 2019, 05:51:56 PM
Letters touching is not a universal psul?

IANAS, but according to one sofer I heard, not a psul according to the Rashb"a, Rada"ch and others.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 06:29:28 PM
Letters touching is not a universal psul?

I'm not a sofer, but the alter Rebbe brings an opinion that if the letter would still be kosher after scratching out the part that connects, the mezzuza is kosher even before it's fixed.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 03, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
IANAS, but according to one sofer I heard, not a psul according to the Rashb"a, Rada"ch and others.
lchatchila?
I'm not a sofer, but the alter Rebbe brings an opinion that if the letter would still be kosher after scratching out the part that connects, the mezzuza is kosher even before it's fixed.
lchatchila?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: hvaces42 on January 03, 2019, 07:11:01 PM
How does one correct a mezuzah? Doesnt it have to be written כסדרם? Or is that tefillin? Or does Chabad have a different view of that?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 08:01:38 PM
lchatchila?

No
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 08:02:30 PM
How does one correct a mezuzah? Doesnt it have to be written כסדרם? Or is that tefillin? Or does Chabad have a different view of that?

Certain psulim can be fixed (maybe those that are kosher bedieved?)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 03, 2019, 11:17:48 PM
No
These mezuzah were sold as kosher lchatchila
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 03, 2019, 11:22:53 PM
These mezuzah were sold as kosher lchatchila

I don't think that is true (at least for some of the stores).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2019, 11:26:08 PM
I'm very curious to hear some actual mareh mekomos. Mukaf gvil is a gemara, and is paskened l'halacha as a psul by tur, shu'a, rambam and others.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Emkay on January 04, 2019, 02:25:08 AM


Seems like this guy has an agenda. I'm not sure exactly what it is, maybe to make his name known? Maybe to boost sales for Machon Stam?
He goes way too far by listing the name of each sofer behind the stores and showing the pictures of each. He's a total fraud in my opinion.

Of course he has an agenda, why can't it be that it's simply to raise awareness and make sure people get what they pay for and have mezuzas that are kosher lchatchila? Not everyone has an  ulterior motive.
I found it pretty humorous that your retort for him calling out a fraud is to go ahead and call him a fraud.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 04, 2019, 03:03:45 AM

Of course he has an agenda, why can't it be that it's simply to raise awareness and make sure people get what they pay for and have mezuzas that are kosher lchatchila? Not everyone has an  ulterior motive.
I found it pretty humorous that your retort for him calling out a fraud is to go ahead and call him a fraud.
To be fair I don’t know if he needed to name actual names to make his point, in which case he’s playing with 🔥
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dr Moose on January 04, 2019, 09:01:31 AM
I was recently in the market for a new mezuzah. I went to my local seforim store to inquire, they showed me different options, this one for $50 the other for $70. As I was weighing my options, I saw a whole stack that he didn't even mention. I asked him what the price on those mezuzahs were, he's like "Oh, those? You can't afford them. They're for kollel yungerleit."
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: IGBES on January 04, 2019, 11:42:50 AM
Response from Oraita, Rabbi Gad Sebag:

Quote
In light of the latest video that was published I was asked to respond.

In my 26 years being a sofer I tried very hard to stay away from מחלוקת especially one that is not לשם שמים. However in this case… I have to respond to clarify.

I would like to mention that each mezuzah sold by Oraita is carefully checked by one of our certified magihim in our office.  And while we try our very best שגיאות מי יבין And There is always room for improvement.

And to the report.

I showed to many magihim in the US and Eretz Yisroel the issues mentioned by the report and they were puzzled.

The letters צ showed in the reports are not even questions. (clear space between the 2 heads. Kosher lechatchila.

The disconnect parts of letters that are reported as posul are not ניכר להדיא (visible enough) and therefore kosher as is even without repair.

As for the spacing between letters in the same word a couple of them could have been closer but not posul.

I do have to notice that those same issues appear in the others report that for some reason was kosher there.

דרשני?

I also notice new concepts in halocho such as שאלת תינוק in spacing issues…? Not mentioned in shulchon oruch.

And that brings me to one conclusion.

A good כוונה might have been there perhaps but ניקיון ידיים איו כאן.

Relying on a single unknown magiah to do a character killing of many people and people’s livelihood is wrong.

The poor choice of how to do this and the public shaming of sofrim is wrong.

The refusal to have a multiple neutral hagoho performed of these mezuzos and then review the outcome is screaming foul.

Putting the rebbe’s name and mivtsoim as a preface to this is unacceptable.

Saying that hundreds of thousands of mezuzos used by yiden around the globe are posul is wrong.

Taking this to YouTube and out to the world with WhatsApp is so wrong.

What yeshiva and which mashpia or parent taught you that. The bitterness and anger of this individual and lack of בנחת נשמעים…. is disturbing.

The purpose here was not to educate customers and to have sofrim improve.

It’s wrong to hide behind איצטלא דרבנן and Holy causes when הידיים ידי עשו.

I see a קנאות but no pinchus. However, korachs name and his מחלוקת is all over the place.
The damage caused by these individuals is irreversible and may hashem have rachmunus on them and forgive them.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the dozens of customers that contacted me in past day showing their support and love.

It’s heartwarming and I thank hashem for such great clientele. No infomercial or money can buy that.

We all the sofrim are unified (a miracle) and will do everything to protect ourselves and families.

I will conclude with hope and pray of ברכינו אבינו כולנו כאחד with achdus. And we should be zoche to the coming of moshiach speedily in our days.

Sincerely.
Oraita Inc.
Rabbi Gad Sebag
Sofer stam.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 04, 2019, 12:20:37 PM
.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 04, 2019, 12:44:47 PM
.
Good!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 04, 2019, 12:46:50 PM

Of course he has an agenda, why can't it be that it's simply to raise awareness and make sure people get what they pay for and have mezuzas that are kosher lchatchila? Not everyone has an  ulterior motive.
I found it pretty humorous that your retort for him calling out a fraud is to go ahead and call him a fraud.
It was probably quite assur and wrong of him to name names just based off of his personal sofrim, and now let’s see what bes din decides. I don’t know if calling him a fraud is wrong.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 04, 2019, 12:50:02 PM
apparently the 'psulim' he mentions might be so according to AR but not necessarily  according to all poskim.

but the mocher should not have agreed to sell to 'anash' personal use...

that's a good point - he holds to the standard of the expected customer (in this case, I believe the expected customer is the shaliach who originally ordered them, not his 'mispallel' that he might have been ordering on behalf of).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 04, 2019, 12:51:30 PM
Obviously l'chol hadeios these are not mehudar mezuzahs, but to say that they're straight-up passul and to name and shame stores -without getting their side of the story- when it's apparently not so cut and dry, when there are many differing opinions, seems pretty inappropriate.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yitzyul on January 04, 2019, 01:08:39 PM
[quote Relying on a single unknown magiah to do a character killing of many people and people’s livelihood is wrong.

The poor choice of how to do this and the public shaming of sofrim is wrong.

The refusal to have a multiple neutral hagoho performed of these mezuzos and then review the outcome is screaming foul]
[/quote]
+1
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 04, 2019, 01:13:24 PM
This whole story is interesting. I definitely think that there is more backstory here. Why would someone go out and spend 3-4000 of their own money to do this? If I give him (R'Wolf) the benefit of the doubt that he truly is doing this l'shaim shamayim, why go this route? Did he try to go to Bes Din before making the video?

I hope that the Din Torah, or at least him appearing before bes din will shed some light on the matter

while I appreciate R' Sebags response, and the fact that all of the sofrim in the video have taken him to a din torah, one quote stuck out more than the rest:

Quote
We all the sofrim are unified (a miracle) and will do everything to protect ourselves and families.

I hope that this 'everything to protect ourselves' turns out to be that R'Wolf is bending the truth,  and not that the sofrim are willing to sell mezuzos that are pasul.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: coralsnake on January 04, 2019, 01:16:21 PM
Did he try to go to Bes Din before making the video?

I hope that the Din Torah, or at least him appearing before bes din will shed some light on the matter


I know nothing about this particular case but all I can say is that unfortunately the Bes Din situation in CH is extremely messed up.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: avromie7 on January 04, 2019, 01:25:53 PM
I know nothing about this particular case but all I can say is that unfortunately the Bes Din situation in CH is extremely messed up.
I know nothing about the Bais Din situation in CH, but everywhere else that I know of it's pretty messed up.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 04, 2019, 01:28:42 PM
I know nothing about the Bais Din situation in CH
Consider yourself lucky :)

I know nothing about this particular case but all I can say is that unfortunately the Bes Din situation in CH is extremely messed up.
This is not the CH BD
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: avromie7 on January 04, 2019, 01:45:22 PM
Consider yourself lucky :)
Meh, I doubt it's any worse than anywhere else.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yuds70 on January 04, 2019, 02:07:28 PM


spend 3-4000
He mentioned in the comment section of the YouTube video that he spent over $7k on this.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: 12HRS on January 04, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
He mentioned in the comment section of the YouTube video that he spent over $7k on this.

Wonder who hes planning on selling them to :P
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 04, 2019, 03:05:29 PM
He mentioned in the comment section of the YouTube video that he spent over $7k on this.
The 3-4k is just on cost of Mezuzas. The rest is cost of having them checked (once on camera and he says again after) and his video crew.

Wonder who hes planning on selling them to :P
Amex return protection?  :D
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 04, 2019, 03:09:39 PM
http://shmais.com/chabad-news/latest/item/shmaiscom-exclusive-wolf-turns-down-offer-for-independent-checking
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 04, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
I don't think that is true (at least for some of the stores).
how can you lchtchila sell a mezuza thats only kosher bdieved?
v'ikar, do you know any store that sells such a thing?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 04, 2019, 03:23:41 PM
v'ikar, do you know any store that sells such a thing?

Yes, at least 7 of them... ;-)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yuds70 on January 04, 2019, 03:25:19 PM
http://shmais.com/chabad-news/latest/item/shmaiscom-exclusive-wolf-turns-down-offer-for-independent-checking
Shmais is still around?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 04, 2019, 03:36:11 PM
Shmais is still around?

I'm as surprised as you...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 04, 2019, 03:43:02 PM
This whole story is interesting. I definitely think that there is more backstory here. Why would someone go out and spend 3-4000 of their own money to do this? If I give him (R'Wolf) the benefit of the doubt that he truly is doing this l'shaim shamayim, why go this route? Did he try to go to Bes Din before making the video?

I hope that the Din Torah, or at least him appearing before bes din will shed some light on the matter

while I appreciate R' Sebags response, and the fact that all of the sofrim in the video have taken him to a din torah, one quote stuck out more than the rest:

I hope that this 'everything to protect ourselves' turns out to be that R'Wolf is bending the truth,  and not that the sofrim are willing to sell mezuzos that are pasul.
Quote
We all the sofrim are unified (a miracle) and will do everything to protect ourselves and families.
He says we're all unified, but notably it seems like the one that got 10/10 kosher is not on the hazmana.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 04, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
He says we're all unified, but notably it seems like the one that got 10/10 kosher is not on the hazmana.

That guy suffered no damages. Why would he bring him to a Din Torah?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 04, 2019, 04:06:21 PM
That guy suffered no damages. Why would he bring him to a Din Torah?
Right. I guess I'm not saying he should bring him to a din torah, but then where do we see they're all unified? Maybe he means just the seven of them?
Response from Oraita, Rabbi Gad Sebag:
Not saying he needs to go point by point per se, but he doesn't address all of the alleged psulim - even just in his mezuzahs alone. And if you go through the nearly 50 labeled pasul, there are many more psulim that are alleged.
Quote
The bitterness and anger of this individual and lack of בנחת נשמעים…. is disturbing.

The purpose here was not to educate customers and to have sofrim improve.
I think the guy clearly went about this the wrong way (unless there's more to the story), but I don't see the bitterness/anger, nor that the purpose was anything other than to educate customers.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: coralsnake on January 04, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Shmais is still around?
That may be the most surprising thing about this thread.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 04, 2019, 04:24:17 PM
@Sofer770, care to weigh in?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 06, 2019, 12:40:45 PM
Nu what's the latest ?!?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Essen est zich on January 06, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
https://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=53858&alias=lone-crusader-riles-sofer-stams

290 comments and counting...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 06, 2019, 01:08:40 PM
https://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=53858&alias=lone-crusader-riles-sofer-stams

290 comments and counting...
Interesting. In the comments, multiple people say that Raskin (10/10 Kosher mezuzos in the video) is Wolf’s cousin..  interesting.

Where did the 7K come from again?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Essen est zich on January 06, 2019, 01:10:02 PM
Interesting. In the comments, multiple people say that Raskin (10/10 Kosher mezuzos in the video) is Wolf’s cousin..  interesting.

Where did the 7K come from again?
That's because half of lubavitch is related to each other. Imo it makes nothing changes because of that.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 01:40:44 PM
Apparently 4th cousins but I may be wrong.

The Raskin family is one of the biggest families in Lubavitch. I think they're up to 6th and 7th (fully traceable) generation now.
2 people will have the name Raskin but they're only 5th cousins so they're easily identifiable but not necessarily close.
Just to give you an idea, my brother's kids and my sister's kids are 5th cousins through their Raskin sides.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 02:00:30 PM
I recently bought many mezuzos for myself. There is a reason I spent over $1,000. This was a well known issue and I'm really glad that he named names and took no prisoners. They are מחללי שם שמים of the highest level. I didn't think the situation was THIS bad and am shocked that there were supposed frum Jews selling mezuzos that were all pasul and likely intentionally. It's so easy to see a difference when looking.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:04:46 PM
I recently bought many mezuzos for myself. There is a reason I spent over $1,000. This was a well known issue and I'm really glad that he named names and took no prisoners. They are מחללי שם שמים of the highest level. I didn't think the situation was THIS bad and am shocked that there were supposed frum Jews selling mezuzos that were all pasul and likely intentionally. It's so easy to see a difference when looking.
There definitely is an issue, the extent of which, and whether the vendor it consumer have the responsibility to educate themselves/the other, seems to be up for debate.
You seem to be buying right into his version of the story.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 02:31:36 PM
There definitely is an issue, the extent of which, and whether the vendor it consumer have the responsibility to educate themselves/the other, seems to be up for debate.
You seem to be buying right into his version of the story.

By a restaurant it's also the customer's responsibility that the meat is kosher? Of course, many people knew about the issue and avoided them entirely, as is the case with some restaurants. But to knowingly sell pasul mezuzos to the unwitting?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:41:45 PM
By a restaurant it's also the customer's responsibility that the meat is kosher? Of course, many people knew about the issue and avoided them entirely, as is the case with some restaurants. But to knowingly sell pasul mezuzos to the unwitting?
YES! That's exactly my point!

Commercialised Judaism and relying on agencies and organisations, "they say this is a good Hechsher" and "they say this Hechsher is no good" is a concept which started about 100 years ago as people were leaving the Shtetel life where they knew they're Rabbi and relied on what he said was good/kosher/Tahor/allowed.
About 100 years later it's become a business and enterprise and this is a huge WAKE UP CALL that people need to take responsibility for their Judaism.
Don't eat in a restaurant unless YOU make sure it's Kosher by relying on people YOU know and YOU trust. Same for Tefilin, Mezuzos and everything else!
/end rant
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 06, 2019, 02:52:35 PM
It's why I no longer buy an esrog, such a dishonest business, same for kapores chicken.

My tefillen were stolen in SF, my father paid 2k(!!!) For gasos from machon stam just Rashi..

I thought that was a lot,but I see why.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 02:54:30 PM
YES! That's exactly my point!

Commercialised Judaism and relying on agencies and organisations, "they say this is a good Hechsher" and "they say this Hechsher is no good" is a concept which started about 100 years ago as people were leaving the Shtetel life where they knew they're Rabbi and relied on what he said was good/kosher/Tahor/allowed.
About 100 years later it's become a business and enterprise and this is a huge WAKE UP CALL that people need to take responsibility for their Judaism.
Don't eat in a restaurant unless YOU make sure it's Kosher by relying on people YOU know and YOU trust. Same for Tefilin, Mezuzos and everything else!
/end rant

100% true, but this doesn't make these vendors any less culpable.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:56:31 PM
Crazy stuff. Probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?
Or is this only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2019, 02:59:12 PM
only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos
This, supposedly.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Essen est zich on January 06, 2019, 03:01:22 PM
Crazy stuff. Probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?
Or is this only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos?
The whole issue is Mivzoim mezuzahas. That the vendors receive them from outside sources and say they're kosher bdieved. Regular mezuzas purchased l shouldn't have any issues.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 03:09:12 PM
Crazy stuff. Probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?
Or is this only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos?

Should likely be mehudar for that price.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Fish Tank on January 06, 2019, 03:12:37 PM
I recently bought many mezuzos for myself. There is a reason I spent over $1,000.
$1000 doesn't have any significance if you don't specify whether you bought 10, or 20  ;)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 03:14:03 PM
$1000 doesn't have any significance if you don't specify whether you bought 10, or 20  ;)

I think they were around $115 a mezuzah.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: tzifanya54 on January 06, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
I just brought a bunch of mezuzahs I got pictures of the kissav first. I think people should ask for that, even to the untrained eye it should be pretty obvious what kind of Kisav it is.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: eliteflyer on January 06, 2019, 03:29:58 PM
Crazy stuff. Probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?
Or is this only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos?
didn’t you buy them from Raskin?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 03:49:50 PM


Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?
Or is this only for the "mivtzoim" mezuzos?

There are a few factors to take into consideration.
1. The price. While this seems to be a good indicator to detect the quality of Mezuzos, if there is indeed fraud in the industry, price may not be a guarantee.
2. Name. Do you know the name of the Sofer who wrote your Mezuzos? This seems to be a good indicator that your goods are legit.
3. Trust. Sometimes we feel with industries which we're not familiar with and sometimes we don't even have friends in the industry. If you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who WROTE the goods, as long as you know the names of all the people in between and each one has a LOT of trust in the next person, them you should be okay.

Otherwise, you should probably get them checked ASAP.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2019, 04:12:42 PM
Always get your Stam computer checked as well.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2019, 04:16:07 PM
I had my Stam computer, checked. The IT guy said it was good, just a little slow.
What version?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 06, 2019, 05:35:06 PM
What about matza? Or anything Jewish for that matter that's been turned into a huge industry?

Re: wolf and raskin related, that's a joke. Same comments say that Shapiro from vaad rabinei lubavitch bais din is Uncle of Klein son in law who runs business.

Everyone in chabad is related, even me as a child of baalei teshuva's, I'm related to half of chabad by marriage.

Btw I'd wager that wolf is also related to many in the Stam industry he is waring with.

With that said, I would love more background, I thought the use of the term fraud was too far fetched but maybe it really is known fraud ?

Problem with stuff like this is often there's no blow back fear, no class action lawsuits.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 05:39:44 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 05:45:11 PM


What about matza? Or anything Jewish for that matter that's been turned into a huge industry?
Same! Don't buy unless you know who you're buying from. You don't want to know what's going on in some of these bakeries with some "high standard Hechsherim".
Re: wolf and raskin related, that's a joke. Same comments say that Shapiro from vaad rabinei lubavitch bais din is Uncle of Klein son in law who runs business.
Indeed.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 06, 2019, 05:48:38 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
If that's what horrified you on COL, I don't even know what to say.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 06:00:58 PM
If that's what horrified you on COL, I don't even know what to say.
Maybe it’s an old problem. I hope not .
Either way , it’s a Massive Chilul Hashem to remove Hashems name and insert Lubavitch. Are the Rabbanai Chabad ok with this ? As far as I know no other group of Yidden do this , not Sefardim , Litvaks , any other Chassidus , or Modox.
It’s literally a Chilul Hashem . May Hashem have mercy on his people .
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2019, 06:06:47 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
LOL
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 06, 2019, 06:13:26 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
relax
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 06:33:09 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
Who made the word Chilul holy and exclusive?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Essen est zich on January 06, 2019, 06:53:53 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
I know that there are others who use the words Ben Torah instead to describe behavior that shouldn't be happening.

For example, "That's not a what Ben Torah would do.. "

Same thing.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 07:11:00 PM
relax
How can I relax on Hashems Honor ?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 07:11:39 PM
Who made the word Chilul holy and exclusive?
Because it’s used in all Jewish circles to refer to the honor of God ??
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 07:13:37 PM
I know that there are others who use the words Ben Torah instead to describe behavior that shouldn't be happening.

For example, "That's not a what Ben Torah would do.. "

Same thing.
Torah is not a Litvish thing , or a Sefardi/ Chasidic thing .
It’s Hashems Torah !!
Besides The word Hashem is being removed and replaced with Lubavitch . It’s shocking.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Essen est zich on January 06, 2019, 07:14:39 PM
Torah is not a Litvish thing , or a Sefardi/ Chasidic thing .
It’s Hashems Torah !!
Besides The word Hashem is being removed and replaced with Lubavitch . It’s shocking.
Lol. I think it's about time you get out of your bubble.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2019, 07:15:04 PM
Torah is not a Litvish thing , or a Sefardi/ Chasidic thing .
It’s Hashems Torah !!
Besides The word Hashem is being removed and replaced with Lubavitch . It’s shocking.
Wake up and smell the coffee
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 07:21:41 PM
What does "This doesn't make frum Jews look good" mean?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
What does "This doesn't make frum Jews look good" mean?
It’s not the same as Using the term Chilul Hashem, and removing the word Hashem and inserting Lubavitch. I can’t believe the Rebbe or the Rabbonay Chabad are/were ok with this .
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 07:41:54 PM
It’s not the same as Using the term Chilul Hashem, and removing the word Hashem and inserting Lubavitch. I can’t believe the Rebbe or the Rabbonay Chabad are/were ok with this .
I hope in Chabad when things go well they don’t say It’s a Kiddush Chabad .
Please Please someone tell me that’s not true   : ( : (
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 06, 2019, 07:50:36 PM
Because it’s used in all Jewish circles to refer to the honor of God ??
I just want to make sure I get this. You want to know if rabonei Chabad approve of anonymous comments on the internet using the phrase "chilul Lubavitch."

Nevermind the site itself would never be approved of by any rabonim.
Never mind the site is based on lashon hara, heipach hatznius and and denigrates and arguably does more than any other ill to tear at the fabric of true Jewish life.
Nevermind that the story in question involves the possibility of either tens of thousands of pasul mezuzos, libel against dozens of Yidden who stand to lose their parnasa, or both.

All of that was fine. What horrified you is the use of the word "chilul" without being joined to "Hashem". What's your feeling here, the commenters are saying Lubavitch is Hashem? Lubavitch is Judaism? Is the issue that Lubavitchers cannot feel someone is descerating the name of the movement because you aren't familiar with anyone with enough self pride to be bothered by such a thing?

Is it only that you've never heard the expression used before? Should the rabonim come out against the use of the word kvort?

I'm just so confused.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2019, 07:54:42 PM
I hope in Chabad when things go well they don’t say It’s a Kiddush Chabad .
Please Please someone tell me that’s not true   : ( : (
You seem to know very little about chabbad. Lets just say that their worldview is very drastically different then yours. You can dig deeper if you really want...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 07:56:03 PM
I just want to make sure I get this. You want to know if rabonei Chabad approve of anonymous comments on the internet using the phrase "chilul Lubavitch."

Nevermind the site itself would never be approved of by any rabonim.
Never mind the site is based on lashon hara, heipach hatznius and and denigrates and arguably does more than any other ill to tear at the fabric of true Jewish life.
Nevermind that the story in question involves the possibility of either tens of thousands of pasul mezuzos, libel against dozens of Yidden who stand to lose their parnasa, or both.

All of that was fine. What horrified you is the use of the word "chilul" without being joined to "Hashem". What's your feeling here, the commenters are saying Lubavitch is Hashem? Lubavitch is Judaism? Is the issue that Lubavitchers cannot feel someone is descerating the name of the movement because you aren't familiar with anyone with enough self pride to be bothered by such a thing?

Is it only that you've never heard the expression used before? Should the rabonim come out against the use of the word kvort?

I'm just so confused.
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be @Yehuda57's job around here.  :)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 06, 2019, 08:01:04 PM
I hope in Chabad when things go well they don’t say It’s a Kiddush Chabad .
Please Please someone tell me that’s not true   : ( : (
What you seem to be thinking of is a Chabad kiddush, where there's usually more Smirnoff involved. If there is parev cholent though, it is indeed a chilul Lubavitch.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 08:14:13 PM

This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 06, 2019, 08:40:05 PM
This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )

Can't tell if he's serious or trolling.

And the million times you hear " that's now how a bais Yakov girl acts" etc...

It takes little brain power to realize that avoiding a chillul hashem is the main goal, however the comments in specific instance is regarding chabad specifically.

And yes the term "bnai Torah " etc does or doesn't etc.. who gave them a monopoly on the Torah?!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 08:43:12 PM
I liked a comment by chevron. Wow
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: gingyguy on January 06, 2019, 08:46:53 PM
This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )
Can. You. Just. Stop.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 06, 2019, 08:49:08 PM
This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )
Is it heartbreaking to you that Rabbi Lichtenstein calls his podcast ישיבה של מעלה? (I just happened to refresh my feed...)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yammer on January 06, 2019, 09:02:43 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted
This is a Chilul DDF...

But seriously the response below should have answered you question..
I just want to make sure I get this. You want to know if rabonei Chabad approve of anonymous comments on the internet using the phrase "chilul Lubavitch."

Nevermind the site itself would never be approved of by any rabonim.
Never mind the site is based on lashon hara, heipach hatznius and and denigrates and arguably does more than any other ill to tear at the fabric of true Jewish life.
Nevermind that the story in question involves the possibility of either tens of thousands of pasul mezuzos, libel against dozens of Yidden who stand to lose their parnasa, or both.

All of that was fine. What horrified you is the use of the word "chilul" without being joined to "Hashem". What's your feeling here, the commenters are saying Lubavitch is Hashem? Lubavitch is Judaism? Is the issue that Lubavitchers cannot feel someone is descerating the name of the movement because you aren't familiar with anyone with enough self pride to be bothered by such a thing?

Is it only that you've never heard the expression used before? Should the rabonim come out against the use of the word kvort?

I'm just so confused.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 06, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )
😂
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: doodle on January 06, 2019, 09:40:08 PM
Can't tell if he's serious or trolling.


I am serious.
 I am sad to see that everyone here is so jaded and doesn’t care less .
May God inspire each of us to achieve our personal best!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 06, 2019, 09:52:38 PM
Oh come on. Even if ALL were kosher, but only b'dieved, it's still awful. When I'm buying a mezuzah, I'm looking for a kosher mezuzah l'chatchilah. Don't tell me it's my fault for only spending $30. If $30 is not enough to get a kosher mezuzah, don't sell mezuzahs for $30. How is a SOFER selling a mezuzah that is not 100% kosher l'chatchilah not theft?

Don't think you are correct, the mezuzah's in question are considered kosher 100 lchatchila. Hopefully when the beis din will hear the case we will all see how such a fraudulent complain this was
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 06, 2019, 09:55:51 PM
Fwiu, low end only. Even an untrained eye can quickly see the difference

True but that difference does not make it not kosher. Every little increase in price will have a better look to it.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Moshe123 on January 06, 2019, 09:56:38 PM
Ok 0 poster to add to the discussion...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 06, 2019, 10:04:05 PM
I am happy he did it. When I was purchasing mezuzahs for myself, not mivtzoim, I was unable to spend too much money. I went to one of the places in the video and ordered one expensive mezuzah and the rest mivtzoim mezuzahs. The salesman tried to dissuade me from buying the cheaper ones. He said they were 100% kosher, l'chatchilah, only that they were cheap and not good quality. In that situation, my plan was to buy the cheap ones and in time replace them with better ones.

The first time I got them checked, they were all pasul. Not kosher b'dieved, not some of them ok, some not. All pasul. I was furious. As much as I was at fault for cheaping out on the mitzvah, and I certainly should have splurged, he did assure me they were 100% kosher l'chatchilah.

The "expensive" mezuzah (~$150 IIRC) was impeccable. It has been checked by 3 different sofrim over the years, and they have not found even the tiniest blemish.

I am uncertain your exact circumstances of the above story. However I can tell you that there seems to be a divide on how to call a mezuzah kosher lchatchila some sofrim are rushed to call something non-kosher and others have the opinion that they are kosher kist not mehudar. (Seems needs to be explained that means kosher lchatchila and obviously kosher bdieved)
Imagine every time someone goes to a Rav for a Sheila and the Rav will say it's not good. Obviously not because the Rav knows the importance of this matter and would look to make it good to upmost ability. Regarding in safrus there is opinions that hold these mezuzahs are kosher and certain people cannot take that
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yesitsme on January 06, 2019, 10:06:21 PM
I am serious.
 I am sad to see that everyone here is so jaded and doesn’t care less .
May God inspire each of us to achieve our personal best!
It really depends where you're coming from if you view Chabad as a pathway to get closer to hashem, Chillul Hashem and Chillul Lubavitch = Expand "Chillul Getting closer to hashem" aren't to far from each other, however if you view chabad as a international convenience shop you're right.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yelped on January 06, 2019, 10:33:35 PM
I am uncertain your exact circumstances of the above story. However I can tell you that there seems to be a divide on how to call a mezuzah kosher lchatchila some sofrim are rushed to call something non-kosher and others have the opinion that they are kosher kist not mehudar. (Seems needs to be explained that means kosher lchatchila and obviously kosher bdieved)
Imagine every time someone goes to a Rav for a Sheila and the Rav will say it's not good. Obviously not because the Rav knows the importance of this matter and would look to make it good to upmost ability. Regarding in safrus there is opinions that hold these mezuzahs are kosher and certain people cannot take that
If you bothered to join and make an account, please try to post something coherent that we simple people we could understand. I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 10:50:09 PM
I am uncertain your exact circumstances of the above story. However I can tell you that there seems to be a divide on how to call a mezuzah kosher lchatchila some sofrim are rushed to call something non-kosher and others have the opinion that they are kosher kist not mehudar. (Seems needs to be explained that means kosher lchatchila and obviously kosher bdieved)
Imagine every time someone goes to a Rav for a Sheila and the Rav will say it's not good. Obviously not because the Rav knows the importance of this matter and would look to make it good to upmost ability. Regarding in safrus there is opinions that hold these mezuzahs are kosher and certain people cannot take that
That indeed seems to be the case here. Everything in life has 2 ways of looking at it. Especially safrus.
I understand that many have a hard time with the concept.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2019, 11:22:09 PM
This has Nothing to do with any particular website . Look at the comments . They refer to Chilul Chabad . What a terrible Chilul Hashem . To switch Hashem for Chabad ! It’s heartbreaking.
Is this unique to that website ? Or is this a systematic problem ? If so , Are the Rabbonim of Chabad able/ willing to do something about this ?? Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )
You're right. It's terrible how people can act like this. It's mamesh a chilul Lubavitch.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cmey on January 06, 2019, 11:43:16 PM
I just went to check the aforementioned website to read the comments.
I am horrified !! When Chabad people talk , They write “this is a Chilul Lubavitch”
How low of a people to switch the term Chilul Hashem for Chilul Lubavitch.
You switch Hashems Honor for Lubavitch ?? 
Of course Moshiach won’t come ! I am disgusted

Snags will never get it...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 06, 2019, 11:45:33 PM
Did this happen during the years of the Rebbe ??
 ( there is no way it could have  , He was A Tzadik Yesod Olam ! )

If it did, would you consider that maybe you are the עם הארץ here?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 06, 2019, 11:56:42 PM
That indeed seems to be the case here. Everything in life has 2 ways of looking at it. Especially safrus.
I understand that many have a hard time with the concept.
When I buy a mezuzah, I'm no expert, I'm relying on the sofer. If he's relying on opinions which are not widely accepted, he should explain that.
The sofrim have not been explaining that at all. Not even close. It's not necessarily "mezuzah Fraud" but it's dishonesty.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 06, 2019, 11:57:17 PM
If it did, would you consider that maybe you are the עם הארץ here?
Because he definitely did, multiple times
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 07, 2019, 12:02:27 AM
This conversation is so odd
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 07, 2019, 12:03:22 AM
Because he definitely did, multiple times

Right. Here's one example -
http://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/tm/29/24/index.htm

Quote
כי, אע"פ שבעניני מצוה יש חילוק בין גדול לקטן, הרי, כשמדובר אודות קידוש שם ליובאוויטש, אין חילוק בין גדולים לקטנים, ואדרבה, לפעמים יכולים הקטנים לפעול עוד יותר
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 12:14:28 AM
What you seem to be thinking of is a Chabad kiddush, where there's usually more Smirnoff involved. If there is parev cholent though, it is indeed a chilul Lubavitch.
That really depends on whether it's שחיטת ליובאוויטש or not.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 12:15:20 AM
That really depends on whether it's שחיטת ליובאוויטש or not.
The parve cholent?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 12:17:18 AM
That really depends on whether it's שחיטת ליובאוויטש or not.
The main thing is to ensure that there's Bartenura for kiddush as I only drink ליובאוויטשער סחיטה.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 12:19:48 AM
The parve cholent?
Obviously!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 12:21:04 AM
The main thing is to ensure that there's Bartenura for kiddush as I only drink ליובאוויטשער סחיטה.

So only Tropicana orange juice, never Lakewood or New Square?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 12:24:51 AM
Quite a few relevant issues raised here:

https://t.me/YiddisherHumor/102
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 12:27:22 AM
So only Tropicana orange juice, never Lakewood or New Square?
Never!
As those don't make it to CLE :)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 12:32:28 AM
Never!
As those don't make it to CLE :)

I guess the fact that I don't drink any juices or flavored drinks (bar an occasional Heineken) fits well with Parve cholent.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 12:33:38 AM
You're right. It's terrible how people can act like this. It's mamesh a chilul Lubavitch.
ALOL
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cmey on January 07, 2019, 12:38:59 AM
I’ve seen the term chilul lubavitch/ חילול שם חבד and the term חילול שם הרבי used in conjunction with chilul Hashem, not as a substitute. I don’t really see the problem...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 12:39:12 AM
Waiting for one of the 7 soferim / stores to own up, apologize, offer recall / testing, advise steps taken to ensure this won't repeat.

In absence of the above, I wouldn't buy anything from any of the merchants.

Another question might be, is your tzitzis and talis kosher ?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Shmuli11 on January 07, 2019, 01:11:08 AM
I bought my talis, tzitzis and gartel from these merchants. Is my gartel kosher?

When can I sign on for the class action suit? Will anyone who bought anything from Judaica World qualify?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 01:13:45 AM
I bought my talis, tzitzis and gartel from these merchants. Is my gartel kosher?

When can I sign on for the class action suit? Will anyone who bought anything from Judaica World qualify?

Back in the day there was some sort of silk "custom" gartel controversy/scam.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 08:29:00 AM
Do you know that most restaurants and even more factories rely on minority opinions to ensure your food is certified kosher?
I still stand by what I said before that at this point this is an issue which boils down to consumer awareness, and it's not limited to סת''ם.

This is in response to Yehuda57 from 11:56pm. For some reason it's not allowing me to quote.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 09:24:33 AM
Back in the day there was some sort of silk "custom" gartel controversy/scam.
I don’t think I ever paid more than $15 for a gartel, if that  (except for the one I bought for someone else at his request).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
I don’t think I ever paid more than $15 for a gartel, if that  (except for the one I bought for someone else at his request).
Let me guess, you actually pay 75c per gartel. You buy a 1.50 gartel and cut into 2.
 
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 07, 2019, 09:31:21 AM
How can I relax on Hashems Honor ?

I'm sure you get just as worked up when people use נפלה עטרת ראשנו about a person who passes away?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cmey on January 07, 2019, 09:47:13 AM
I'm sure you get just as worked up when people use נפלה עטרת ראשנו about a person who passes away?

How about צהלי ורוני יושבת
———
 ‏כי  ‏גדול בקרבך קדוש ישראל

 Whenever an Admor of just about any chassidus comes for a visit.....
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 07, 2019, 10:13:41 AM
מסכת בבא בתרא
דף עה עמוד ב
אמר רבה אמר רבי יוחנן, עתידין צדיקים שנקראין על שמו של הקב"ה, שנאמר (ישעי' מג, ז) "כל הנקרא בשמי ולכבודי בראתיו יצרתיו אף עשיתיו". ואמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני א"ר יונתן, ג' נקראו על שמו של הקב"ה, ואלו הן: צדיקים ומשיח וירושלים, צדיקים - הא דאמרן, משיח – דכתיב (ירמי' כג, ו) "וזה שמו אשר יקראו ה' צדקנו", ירושלים דכתיב (יחזקאל מח, לה) "סביב שמונה עשר אלף ושם העיר מיום ה' שמה" - אל תקרי שמה אלא שמה. אמר רבי אלעזר, עתידין צדיקים שאומרים לפניהן קדוש כדרך שאומרים לפני הקב"ה, שנאמר (ישעי' ד, ג) "והיה הנשאר בציון והנותר בירושלים קדוש יאמר לו.

:הירושלמי בכורים ג, ג
 "'וה' בהיכל קדשו' (חבקוק ב, כ), הא ר' יצחק בר לעזר בכנישתא מדרתא דקיסרין'

מגלה יח.: "אמר רבי אחא אמר רבי אלעזר, מנין שקראו הקב"ה ליעקב א-ל, שנאמר (בראשית לג, כ) 'ויקרא לו א-ל אלקי ישראל

 רבינו בחיי עה"פ בפר' כי תשא (לג, ז) "והיה כל מבקש ה' יצא אל אהל מועד אשר מחוץ למחנה". וז"ל: "והיה הכתוב ראוי לומר 'כל מבקש משה', אלא מכאן שנקרא משה בשם המיוחד, וכן מצינו שנקרא יעקב בשם א-ל שנאמר 'ויקרא לו א-ל אלקי ישראל'... וכן מצינו ב'שם' הצדיק שנקרא בשם המיוחד, הוא שכתוב (בראשית כה, כב) 'ותלך לדרוש את ה'', וכתיב (שם, כג) 'ויאמר ה' לה', ודרשו חז"ל (ב"ר כ, ו) על ידי שם, כי השם המיוחד לא דיבר עמה כלל וכו', וטעם הדבר בכולם, כי הדבק בדבר נקרא על שם הדבר שידבק בו, ונקרא השליח בשם השולח

"המו"ל שו"ת הרב הגדול מהר"ד ברוך אנגיל, כתב בדברי ההקדמה שלו על הגאון המחבר: "רבינו הגדול והקדוש ברוך הוא

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: eyj on January 07, 2019, 10:14:11 AM
Reminds me of the kid who was overheard saying that he is careful never to do any aveiros. When asked why not he replied that he is terrified that if he does an aveira Hashem might tell the Rebbe!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 10:15:40 AM
Let me guess, you actually pay 75c per gartel. You buy a 1.50 gartel and cut into 2.
1. I rarely buy a gartel, as I don't lose them often.

2. I don't buy extra slim fit suits, so half a gartel won't do the job.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 07, 2019, 10:19:43 AM
When I buy a mezuzah, I'm no expert, I'm relying on the sofer. If he's relying on opinions which are not widely accepted, he should explain that.
The sofrim have not been explaining that at all. Not even close. It's not necessarily "mezuzah Fraud" but it's dishonesty.

Which begs the question - do you buy your mezuzos from a Sofer, or do you buy them from a judaica store salesman?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 10:23:31 AM
Which begs the question - do you buy your mezuzos from a Sofer, or do you buy them from a judaica store salesman?
I bought from a sofer that is highly recommended and regarded.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
Snags will never get it...
+10
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 07, 2019, 10:28:58 AM
in general the word חילול is just that - a word. it means desecration. you can not "desecrate" hashem name, you can not "desecrate" shabbos. you can not "desecrate" a jewish grave. you can not "desecrate" a shul. you can not "desecrate" the name of lubavitch. you can not...
nothing to get excited about
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
Reminds me of the kid who was overheard saying that he is careful never to do any aveiros. When asked why not he replied that he is terrified that if he does an aveira Hashem might tell the Rebbe!
"making the rebbe proud" is a huge part of lubavicheh chinuch.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 07, 2019, 10:38:44 AM
"making the rebbe proud" is a huge part of lubavicheh chinuch.
"so mammy, tatty and hashem will be so proud of me"
im sickened by the fact that they inserted mammy and tatty into such a sentence, and specifically in that order...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 11:46:18 AM
in general the word חילול is just that - a word. it means desecration. you can not "desecrate" hashem name, you can not "desecrate" shabbos. you can not "desecrate" a jewish grave. you can not "desecrate" a shul. you can not "desecrate" the name of lubavitch. you can not...
nothing to get excited about
Thanks. That's what I wanted to say but you put it in words for me.
Which begs the question - do you buy your mezuzos from a Sofer, or do you buy them from a judaica store salesman?
What's the difference?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 11:52:57 AM
When I buy a mezuzah, I'm no expert, I'm relying on the sofer. If he's relying on opinions which are not widely accepted, he should explain that.
The sofrim have not been explaining that at all. Not even close. It's not necessarily "mezuzah Fraud" but it's dishonesty.

You did say that he tried to dissuade you and tell you it's not good quality but when you insisted that that's what you wanted as long as it's Kosher he confirmed that it was Kosher Lechatchila. Do you really expect a seller to tell you something he's selling is not Kosher Lechatchila when according to some opinions it is.
I think at some point, if a seller is telling you that something is Kosher Lechatchila but giving you every reason why not to buy it, the consumer has some responsibility to use his intuition and not to count to much on the statement that it's "Kosher Lechatchila".
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 12:16:43 PM
When I asked sofrim about A"R ksav mezuzos one told me that his range from $100 to $500 and to buy the best you can afford.
Shkoyach.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 12:18:19 PM
You did say that he tried to dissuade you and tell you it's not good quality but when you insisted that that's what you wanted as long as it's Kosher he confirmed that it was Kosher Lechatchila. Do you really expect a seller to tell you something he's selling is not Kosher Lechatchila when according to some opinions it is.
I think at some point, if a seller is telling you that something is Kosher Lechatchila but giving you every reason why not to buy it, the consumer has some responsibility to use his intuition and not to count to much on the statement that it's "Kosher Lechatchila".

It's hard to describe a conversation that happened 8 years ago. I wasn't insisting while he was trying to valiantly to stop me. Again, a simple explanation like "Would you eat chalav stam knowing there are opinions that say it is halachically acceptable, but according to Lubavitch custom, it is not?" Conversation would have been over.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 12:21:36 PM


Again, a simple explanation like "Would you eat chalav stam knowing there are opinions that say it is halachically acceptable, but according to Lubavitch custom, it is not?" Conversation would have been over.

True, but you're forgetting that while he is recognised as a ירא שמים, you can't forget that he's also a salesman. There are some things that he'd rather not say about his merchandise
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 07, 2019, 12:31:25 PM
What's the difference?

There is a huge difference - both in the knowledge of the person selling it, as well as the presumption of kashrus we assign to their opinion. Yes, there are 'bad' sofrim, and sales people of STAM that know more than your average sofer from experience. Generally speaking, if I buy a mezuzah from a Sofer, and ask him about the kashrus, I expect that he is a)being honest, and b) answering via his knowledge of hilchos STAM, that he learned on his way to becoming a sofer. As opposed to some random guy working in a seforim store, that despite his best intentions, knows little of safrus and is relying on the hashgacha of the mezuzah of his supplier.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 12:48:39 PM

True, but you're forgetting that while he is recognised as a ירא שמים, you can't forget that he's also a salesman. There are some things that he'd rather not say about his merchandise
The weird thing is, had he been honest about his products, I would have sprung for more expensive mezuzos. We both would have ended up happier.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: 12HRS on January 07, 2019, 01:01:05 PM
"so mammy, tatty and hashem will be so proud of me"
im sickened by the fact that they inserted mammy and tatty into such a sentence, and specifically in that order...

Mammy before Tatty?  :P

I dont think its so crazy. If you cant learn to tell the truth to your parents you think you are going to be dover emet with h
Hashem
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 07, 2019, 01:05:42 PM
Not sure if this is relevant, but

(http://2r72hl2o7aau2n03cc3evb5b.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/4a98be56-8618-4ac4-b9b4-31885b8530ad-740x931.jpg)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 07, 2019, 01:29:50 PM
Mammy before Tatty?  :P

I dont think its so crazy. If you cant learn to tell the truth to your parents you think you are going to be dover emet with h
Hashem
And of course the words fit better in the song in that order.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 01:30:44 PM
And of course the words fit better in the song in that order.
They fit better or you're used to hearing them that way?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
Not sure if this is relevant, but

(http://2r72hl2o7aau2n03cc3evb5b.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/4a98be56-8618-4ac4-b9b4-31885b8530ad-740x931.jpg)

Why wouldn't it be relevant? The question is whether the merchants (and sofrim), many of which weren't in the business when these standards were set 32 years ago, adhere to these standards.

Inquiring about the name of the sofer who wrote the mezuzah (or tefillin) will go a long way (same regarding asking for the name(s) of shochtim for the meat you consume).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 07, 2019, 01:40:14 PM
They fit better or you're used to hearing them that way?
The former. Mommy and Tatty are typical spoken מלעיל while Hashem is typical spoken מלרע. Move Hashem to first or second and see how it sounds.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cholent on January 07, 2019, 01:44:10 PM
"so mammy, tatty and hashem will be so proud of me"
im sickened by the fact that they inserted mammy and tatty into such a sentence, and specifically in that order...
You can feel better, you got the order wrong. It's actually "Tatty, Mommy, and Hashem"
(Or "Abba, Ima, and Hashem" in the next repetition)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 01:58:57 PM
You can feel better, you got the order wrong. It's actually "Tatty, Mommy, and Hashem"
(Or "Abba, Ima, and Hashem" in the next repetition)
Thank you!
The amaratzus here is astounding.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 02:01:09 PM
Thank you!
The amaratzus here is astounding.

Is that song as old as the letter from the CH Beis Din regarding STaM standards?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Kosher meat in today's day and age is a business, whomever gives the hechsher and hires the shochtim is a different story. I'm sure some meat operations exist solely to provide a higher standard in kashrut and some in quality and some both (love bakar)

Maybe some stam places too are just a business, it's a business like selling daled minim or kaparos, few do it l'shem shamayim. That's why a guy who is passionate about mivtzoim would be angered.

Are the cheap daled minim mivtzoim / chinuch sets kosher ?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 02:04:00 PM
You can feel better, you got the order wrong. It's actually "Tatty, Mommy, and Hashem"
(Or "Abba, Ima, and Hashem" in the next repetition)

What if they have a Abba and a tatty?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 07, 2019, 02:05:05 PM
What if they have a Abba and a tatty?
Hashem might not be so proud of them (the Abba and Tatty that is).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 07, 2019, 02:05:39 PM
Is that song as old as the letter from the CH Beis Din regarding STaM standards?
Didn't see a date on the letter, but MMM1 is from 1984 acc to Amazon.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 07, 2019, 02:07:26 PM
Didn't see a date on the letter, but MMM1 is from 1984 acc to Amazon.
Date is on the last line before signatures. 12/26/1986.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 07, 2019, 02:11:42 PM
It's hard to describe a conversation that happened 8 years ago. I wasn't insisting while he was trying to valiantly to stop me. Again, a simple explanation like "Would you eat chalav stam knowing there are opinions that say it is halachically acceptable, but according to Lubavitch custom, it is not?" Conversation would have been over.

the difference is lubavitch considers that milk trief vs these parshios of stam can be called 100% kosher according to some opinions. many eiruvim around the world are not according to the baal hatanya opinion and yet lubavitchers don't curse out others who rely on the other opinions that allow certain eiruvim. this is the case here in your own home try to be more mehudar. however, to go and try to get someone to put up mezuzahs who does not usually follow most of the shulchan aruch to put up a $120 mezuzah on each door is crazy
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: zh cohen on January 07, 2019, 02:16:43 PM
When I asked sofrim about A"R ksav mezuzos one told me that his range from $100 to $500 and to buy the best you can afford.
Shkoyach.

This is an issue whenever someone buys something about which they are not educated, from cars (especially used), to computers, to wine.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 02:18:31 PM
Didn't see a date on the letter, but MMM1 is from 1984 acc to Amazon.

MMM1?

Amazon?

(https://i.imgur.com/ni1cLIc.png)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 02:20:06 PM
the difference is lubavitch considers that milk trief vs these parshios of stam can be called 100% kosher according to some opinions. many eiruvim around the world are not according to the baal hatanya opinion and yet lubavitchers don't curse out others who rely on the other opinions that allow certain eiruvim. this is the case here in your own home try to be more mehudar. however, to go and try to get someone to put up mezuzahs who does not usually follow most of the shulchan aruch to put up a $120 mezuzah on each door is crazy

I appreciate that you created an account to respond only to my comments, it's great for my ego. Anyhow, you're making my point. Chalav stam is treif for us. Even though there are plenty of people who are matir it, it is treif for us. Same thing with these mezuzos. They are relying on obscure/not-relied-upon opinions to say it is kosher l'chatchila. But for a Lubavitcher, it is not acceptable. If he would have said, "would you use a non Alter Rebbe eruv to carry?" I would have had my answer.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 07, 2019, 02:20:19 PM
Hashem might not be so proud of them (the Abba and Tatty that is).

Dan L'kav Zchus - Abba is his father and tatty is his step father (or vice versa).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 07, 2019, 02:23:56 PM
Dan L'kav Zchus - Abba is his father and tatty is his step father (or vice versa).
Obviously. You can’t biologically have both an Abba and a Tatty. The closest you can get is if one of the parents identifies as an Abba and one as a Tatty. Parent dysphoria.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: lubaby on January 07, 2019, 02:25:45 PM
many eiruvim around the world are not according to the baal hatanya opinion and yet lubavitchers don't curse out others who rely on the other opinions that allow certain eiruvim.
Way to bring back up this topic  ::)

Not entirely true. Although to be fair, their reason being:
this is the case here in your own home try to be more mehudar.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 07, 2019, 02:30:39 PM
Date is on the last line before signatures. 12/26/1986.
My bad. I stopped at the end of the list and was looking at the top for the date.
MMM1?

Amazon?
Marvelous Middos Machine Episode 1, the album the song being quoted is from. Amazon lists the original release date as March 5, 1984 on the product page.

Not sure I get why you asked which is older, but it seemed like you though the letter was older.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 02:33:23 PM
My bad. I stopped at the end of the list and was looking at the top for the date.Marvelous Middos Machine Episode 1, the album the song being quoted is from. Amazon lists the original release date as March 5, 1984 on the product page.

Not sure I get why you asked which is older, but it seemed like you though the letter was older.
Which explains

Thank you!
The amaratzus here is astounding.

Some people 'round here are just too young to posses this important knowledge.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 07, 2019, 02:38:22 PM
Which explains

Some people 'round here are just too young to posses this important knowledge.
Too young? My 7 and 5 year olds know most of the words to that one, and much of the rest of the album and series.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 02:44:44 PM
Too young? My 7 and 5 year olds know most of the words to that one, and much of the rest of the album and series.

Marvelous Middos Machine is indeed a wonderful classic for all ages.

However, I just noticed that the aforementioned letter from the Beis Din of Crown Heights was issued a very short while before Hey Teves 5747, its impact might have been drowned in the Mashke.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 03:09:42 PM
Marvelous Middos Machine is indeed a wonderful classic for all ages.

However, I just noticed that the aforementioned letter from the Beis Din of Crown Heights was issued a very short while before Hey Teves 5747, its impact might have been drowned in the Mashke.

Can we stay on topic??????? whats the latest? is wolff responding to VRL? who is his to'ein?!

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 03:11:47 PM
Can we stay on topic??????? whats the latest? is wolff responding to VRL? who is his to'ein?!

This is DDF! I was referred to this thread by a link posted by @Dan  in the Popcorn master thread. HOW DARE YOU?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 03:11:54 PM
Quote
336
Bigger problem
A bigger problem (only because it isn’t as known) is Keter size 20 tzitzis. While most people assume they are 100% kosher but they are not (according to the alter rebbeh) because they are not 1 amoh from the bottom of the neckline


Shaygetz all of you!! go burn your keter tzitis
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 03:14:15 PM
This is DDF! I was referred to this thread by a link posted by @Dan  in the Popcorn master thread. HOW DARE YOU?

Reminds me of how off topic they get in the gemara.

Where is Rav Heller on this?

I know my brother is very close to Machom Stam and they advertise in his publications. I think the live mezuzah walkthrough is my brother though it's my cousin in the video lol

Basically, when it comes to stam I let my brother / father do what they want, I just hand over my tefillen and mezuzos when they want to check and my father is always on my case about replacing retzuos and the kesher and ugh..

I am curious if they should invent weatherproof mezuzah cases?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: S209 on January 07, 2019, 03:40:17 PM
Reminds me of how off topic they get in the gemara.

Where is Rav Heller on this?

I know my brother is very close to Machom Stam and they advertise in his publications. I think the live mezuzah walkthrough is my brother though it's my cousin in the video lol

Basically, when it comes to stam I let my brother / father do what they want, I just hand over my tefillen and mezuzos when they want to check and my father is always on my case about replacing retzuos and the kesher and ugh..

I am curious if they should invent weatherproof mezuzah cases?
Aren’t most mezuzah cases weatherproof?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 03:57:46 PM
Aren’t most mezuzah cases weatherproof?
Some are, but it's not 100%. Heat, cold, and direct sunlight will affect the Mezuzah.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 04:06:07 PM
Some are, but it's not 100%. Heat, cold, and direct sunlight will affect the Mezuzah.

I have had it damaged by rain. I mean if you invest $150+  on a good mezuza, cases should be westberproof and even theft proof
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 04:13:48 PM
I have had it damaged by rain. I mean if you invest $150+  on a good mezuza, cases should be westberproof and even theft proof

Was your klaf wrapped in wax paper? Did you specify to the seller that this mezuzah is to be placed outdoors and you want a waterproof case?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: avromie7 on January 07, 2019, 04:35:48 PM
Shaygetz all of you!! go burn your keter tzitis
Keter is an issue for everyone.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 05:03:32 PM
Keter is an issue for everyone.
I see a new scandal video coming out on this one. I've got my PC ready!
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 05:10:17 PM
Some are, but it's not 100%. Heat, cold, and direct sunlight will affect the Mezuzah.
Direct sunlight burned my mezuza a few years ago. In a water proof case
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 05:13:14 PM
Direct sunlight burned my mezuza a few years ago. In a water proof case
Whoa. They should make cases out eclipse glasses.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 05:21:58 PM
Whoa. They should make cases out eclipse glasses.
It was a metal case.. was really bad - the plastic wrapping melted into the klaf and half the mezuza was browned and a solid hard mass.
Pretty disturbing...
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 05:48:25 PM
It was a metal case.. was really bad - the plastic wrapping melted into the klaf and half the mezuza was browned and a solid hard mass.
Pretty disturbing...

Plastic wrapping? They didn't use wax paper, or parchment paper? In any event, it is always recommended to tell the sofer (or merchant, if they're knowledgeable and experienced) where the Mezuzah will be placed, so that it's wrapped and placed in the most optimal way for the setting.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 05:50:04 PM
Quite a few relevant issues raised here:

https://t.me/YiddisherHumor/102

For those that don't have Telegram, I've uploaded it to youtube.

https://youtu.be/rl3KfakH198?t=394
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: avromie7 on January 07, 2019, 05:50:59 PM
Plastic wrapping? They didn't use wax paper, or parchment paper? In any event, it is always recommended to tell the sofer (or merchant, if they're knowledgeable and experienced) where the Mezuzah will be placed, so that it's wrapped and placed in the most optimal way for the setting.
The Sofer I got my mezuzos from used plastic like saran wrap.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 07, 2019, 06:04:07 PM
Sorry for the language, the two posts below were posted on a WhatsApp group by a good friend who owns a Judaica store that caters mostly to not "frum" yidden.

Quote
גילוי נאות: אני מוכר מזוזות. אני מניח שאילו הצדיק משיקגו היה בודק מזוזות שאני מוכר הוא היה מגיע לאותן מסקנות עגומות. אבל רגע לפני שתצמידו אותי לעמוד הקלון ותסקלו אותי -בצדק- באבנים, הנה כמה עובדות:
א) רבים מהקונים של הסחורה הזאת הם למרבה הצער אנשים שהיו מסתפקים במזוזת נייר פסולה בחמש דולר. הסכום המקסימלי שהם מוכנים, לאחר שכנוע, לשלם על מזוזה, וגם אז הם יתלוננו, (כי אפשר אולי לברוח מהיהדות אבל קשה יותר לאבד כמה מהתכונות שמאפיינים את היהודים), על כמה זה יקר להיות יהודי, נע בסביבות ה-$40.
ב) בניגוד לצדיק הזה, שכוונותיו בעליל לשם שמים, ודעתו המלומדת נחרצת וחד משמעית, לא חסרים פוסקים ומגיהים שסבורים שמזוזות אלו כשרות, לא רק בדיעבד. אם כי אף אחד לא יטען שהן מהודרות.
מי שרוצה מזוזה מהודרת מוזמן לשלם עליה.
האם הצדיק הזה יהיה מוכן לעזור לשלוחים שחלקם הגדול לא מצליח לגמור את החודש לשלם את הפער שבין עלות מזוזה כזאת למזוזה מהודרת?
ג) הסוחרים ובעלי החנויות לרוב אינם אנשי מקצוע. הם סומכים על הספקים שלהם, סוחרים מהארץ שקונים ישירות מהסופרים, והם מעבירים את המזוזות הללו בדיקת מחשב והגהה שמעלה את מחיר המזוזה ומותירים רווח מינימלי בלבד, ובכך הם חשים שהם מורידים את האחריות מעל גבם.
ד) אם הרב הלר אכן חושב שהמזוזות הללו פסולות קטגורית ובאופן גורף, שיתכבד נא למלא את תפקידו, שהרי זה נמצא תחת אחריותו, ויוציא בבקשה קול קורא בעניין.
 ועם הפסק הזה נלך אנו לספקים שלנו, שילכו מצידם לרבנים בארץ, כולל בית הדין של הרב וואזנר המאשרים את כשרות המזוזות, ושיריבו ביניהם עד שיתלבנו הדברים.
ה) כל עוד זה לא קורה, המעשה הזה של פרסום הוידאו מבלי להזהיר מראש את בעלי החנויות, גובל בקנאות פסולה והיא פוגעת ישירות, לכאורה בניגוד מוחלט לשולחן ערוך, בכל בעלי העסקים שמופיעים שם.
ו) נראה שהנזק כבר נעשה, אולי באופן בלתי הפיך, של מעוות לא יוכל לתקן.
ז) טוב, את הסעיף הזה הוא החדיר עמוק. מקווה שהוא מרוצה עכשיו.

One of the group members, who happens to be an attorney, was pushing back, to which the response was:

Quote
אולי בעריכת דין הדברים הם ברורים; שחור ולבן, חייב או זכאי, בלי גווני ביניים. בחיים עצמם הדברים קצת יותר מורכבים. רצוי שאף אחד, גם לא חנויות יודאיקה, ימכרו מזוזות פסולות. ואם הם לא מסוגלים, שילמדו עריכת דין, שם היושר המקצועי הולך לפני המחנה.
השאלה היא מה עושה את המזוזה פסולה ומה מכשיר אותה. ובכך נחלקו הפוסקים. ויש גם מזוזה פסולה לכתחילה, וכשרה בדיעבד.
אותן מזוזות שוולף קובע בנחרצות שהן פסולות, הן כשרות בעיני רבים אחרים.
ובדיוק כמו שאדם, שליח בבית חב״ד נאמר, המחמיר עם עצמו, מקפיד על רמה מסוימת של כשרות, אבל מקל יותר על הציבור המגיע אליו, ולכן, למשל, בבית יקבע מזוזות עם כתב אדמה״ז, יאכל רק הרב לנדא, ידרוש ממשפחתו ללבוש רף מסוים, מוקפד, של צניעות, ובפסח לא יכנס אל ביתו, נגיד, שוקולד או מוצר מאכל כזה או אחר, אבל יחלק לציבור מצות כשרות אבל מהודרות פחות, כך גם בעניין המזוזות. אין חולק על כך שמזוזה שהיא פסולה לכתחילה אסור שתמכר. אבל בעלי החנויות בקינגסטון תובעים את וולף בבית הדין בטענה שאותן מזוזות כשרות הן.
 ורק כדי להמחיש קצת את מורכבות הדילמה. אמש אכלה בביתי אשה מוכת גורל, בת להורים חב״דיים. היא הגיעה עמוק בתוך הארוחה, ברכבת, עם ילדה הקטן. ובין היתר סיפרה, שבדירתה בניו ג׳רסי, לא היו מזוזות. הרב הקונסרווטיבי שהיא ובעלה החולה משתייכים לקהילתו, הציע לה לפנות לשליח חב״ד המקומי שקבע בשמחה מזוזות על מפתן ביתה ובשאר הדלתות. הסכום המירבי שהיא יכלה לשלם לו, בקושי, על המזוזות הסתכם ב$25. למזוזה. מה השליח הזה אמור היה לעשות? מגבית שכונתית לכתב אדמה״ז? הוא קנה מזוזות שעלו לו בסביבות $40 כל אחת. הן לא אמורות היו להיות מהודרות והוא לא התיימר להציג אותן ככאלה, ועשה את מה שבוודאי גרם לרבי נחת.
אחרי הארוחה, אגב, (ולאחר שהצענו לה להשאר ללון פה), היא שבה לביתה. יתכן שעל פי ההלכה, בנסיבות כאלה יהיה מי שיגיד לה: אל תבואי. אני לא נמנה עם אלה. ולא חסרים רבנים, ושלוחים, שיסכימו עם הדרך הזאת.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Luvisrael on January 07, 2019, 06:14:34 PM
YES! That's exactly my point!

Commercialised Judaism and relying on agencies and organisations, "they say this is a good Hechsher" and "they say this Hechsher is no good" is a concept which started about 100 years ago as people were leaving the Shtetel life where they knew they're Rabbi and relied on what he said was good/kosher/Tahor/allowed.
About 100 years later it's become a business and enterprise and this is a huge WAKE UP CALL that people need to take responsibility for their Judaism.
Don't eat in a restaurant unless YOU make sure it's Kosher by relying on people YOU know and YOU trust. Same for Tefilin, Mezuzos and everything else!
/end rant
very well said
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 06:55:57 PM
Plastic wrapping? They didn't use wax paper, or parchment paper? In any event, it is always recommended to tell the sofer (or merchant, if they're knowledgeable and experienced) where the Mezuzah will be placed, so that it's wrapped and placed in the most optimal way for the setting.
Never seen wax paper. It's always been plastic Saran wrap. (Only time I've seen paper wraps was for tznius).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
Look I get the opposing logic of kosher bedieved for cheap mezuzot where someone may otherwise not have a mezuzah.

This trend seems to be the cause of upwards economic mobility. No reason a quality sofer working l'shem shamayim should make less.

Machon Stam $40 entry level mezuzot passed muster, it just means the rest of the players need to get their act together.

My father wholly supports Rabbi Wolf and as much as my father is a kanoi and oh boy is my father machmir, he generally would find such a video expose to be grub and lashon Hara.

In this case my father while not lauding the style and method, agrees it was necessary.

Also from what I'm hearing, Rav Heller advises machon Stam and so can't really comment on this.

But if you read machon Stam site

Quote
The Sofer
The most essential element of any written parchment is thesofer. In addition to his individual integrity —being G-d-fearing and conscientious — it is imperative that thesofer is tested thoroughly and receives ksav kabbalah— certification from a reliable Rabbinic authority, ensuring that he knows the many detailed and complex laws of STa”M. This is of utmost importance because a sofer who is not completely fluent in the halochos of safrus could innocently and unknowingly invalidate a mezuzah or tefillin without anyone’s, even his, knowledge. When purchasing an item from a sofer with a reliable Rabbinic certification, the consumer can rest assured that his or her STa”M conforms strictly to all the laws and details of Shulchan Aruch,and all the customs of the different ksavim.

The Ksav
Of equal significance to the sofer’s integrity is the quality of his writing. There are many halachos pertaining to the writing of STa”M — as explained at length in Shulchan Aruch(The Code of Jewish Law)1 — and it is essential that the sofer be skillful and accurate in his writing of the letters from a halachic standpoint. Aesthetically, a “beautiful ksav” is a hiddur mitzvah that is cherished by many.

As stated on our Welcome Page, our number one priority is examining the reputations and qualifications of prospective sofrim to find those who, in addition to being honest and G-d-fearing, have received ksav kabbalah — certification from noted Rabbonim — and have handwriting of superior quality. This ensures the highest level of kashrus of every mezuzah, pair of tefillin and sefer Torah sold through MachonStam.

After each mezuzah and tefillin scroll is computer checked, it is then carefully hand-examined to ensure that all the tagim(crowns on the letters) are intact and proper. It is of utmost importance to us that we do not compromise on our standards.As an example of this, according to halachah, the letter lamed is written with two tagim. Kabbalah explains that the tag on the right side corresponds to kindness, and the one on the left, to severity. Consequently, it is of utmost importance that the right tag be taller than the left one, ultimately drawing down kindness from Above over the individual. Our customers appreciate the fact that even on our least expensive STa”M, we don’t compromise on the tagei lamed.

Whether you are looking for ksav AriZal, Alter Rebbe, Beis Yosef,or Sefard, MachonStam insures that the quality of your STa”M will be of the highest quality, from the least to the most expensive items in each category
.


Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 09:04:26 PM
I get in trouble here for my misunderstood views. I respect and support those who work l'shem shamayim even when I don't agree with their views. I would however rather go without arba minim etc than buy from dishonest people.

There's plenty of talmudic,shulchan aruch and rishonim shu"t that support this.

Now, my father would much rather people not come to shull at all than come and talk.. or as we say, if it were up to my father, it would be impossible to get a minyan.. but I'm not extreme.. I just don't see how worship of God and observance of mitzvot negates human decency.

I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Emkay on January 07, 2019, 09:20:41 PM


I would however rather go without __________ etc than buy from dishonest people.

Can you say the same about non religious paraphernalia? About every non necessity?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2019, 09:30:43 PM



I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..

+1
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: 12HRS on January 07, 2019, 09:45:54 PM
I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..

Can you not fathom that their יצר הרע is different then yours?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 10:00:18 PM

Can you say the same about non religious paraphernalia? About every non necessity?

Yes, sure. But it's not related. Rav JB soloveitchik took on the shechita cartel in Boston and many rabanim simply did not eat meat, there were rabbanim who called on people not to buy matza for various reasons.

These mitzvos are fullfiled by taking a physical object and elevating it into spiritual realm and serving God.

How can you serve God when people are turning this into a for profit unholy scam?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 10:07:08 PM
Can you not fathom that their יצר הרע is different then yours?

In "all for the boss" ruchama shain tells how her father one Shabbat saw the new talmud Torah teacher get an Aliyah and not look in Torah during kriah, he followed him out after to see him buy cigarettes and smoke on Shabbat

I don't hang up a mezuza because I follow the law blindly. I hang up a mezuza because God says so and I want to do God's commandment and be close to him..yes there are times where just kosher is good enough for me.

But how can you buy a mezuza etc which is supposed to be written by a yirei shamayim and the guy talks where shulchan aruch forbids.

Would you eat at a restaurant if the mashgiach goes to strip clubs (I know a few of these as does @ExGingi  I bet )
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: MeirS on January 07, 2019, 10:23:15 PM
In "all for the boss" ruchama shain tells how her father one Shabbat saw the new talmud Torah teacher get an Aliyah and not look in Torah during kriah, he followed him out after to see him buy cigarettes and smoke on Shabbat

I don't hang up a mezuza because I follow the law blindly. I hang up a mezuza because God says so and I want to do God's commandment and be close to him..yes there are times where just kosher is good enough for me.

But how can you buy a mezuza etc which is supposed to be written by a yirei shamayim and the guy talks where shulchan aruch forbids.

Would you eat at a restaurant if the mashgiach goes to strip clubs (I know a few of these as does @ExGingi  I bet )
There was a Mashpia in Tomchei Temimim of old, his work in Yeshiva was his side job. Footing the day the was involved in business. During one particular Farbrengen he was directions his words to one particular student encouraging him to improve in a certain area.
After a short while, the Bochur couldn't handle it anymore and he called out "who are you to tell me where and what to improve! I myself saw you shaking hands with a woman!"
The Mashpia turns to him and tells him, "Listen here, in life, you'll meet a lot of people, each have מעלות and חסרונות, you can choose how to see things, either you can see all the good that people have which you can learn from and you'll end up in a good place, or you can see all the negative that people have which you can learn from and you'll end up in..."
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 07, 2019, 10:26:23 PM
in a certain city in europe there is an orthodox shul run by a rabbi who previously practiced as a reform rabbi in america.
unfortunately, he does conversions and weddings in his reform style.
when confronted; he replied: if we (orthodox) wont do it for them, they'll go to reform.
so he does reform work for them.

if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 07, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
Look I get the opposing logic of kosher bedieved for cheap mezuzot where someone may otherwise not have a mezuzah.

This trend seems to be the cause of upwards economic mobility. No reason a quality sofer working l'shem shamayim should make less.

Machon Stam $40 entry level mezuzot passed muster, it just means the rest of the players need to get their act together.

My father wholly supports Rabbi Wolf and as much as my father is a kanoi and oh boy is my father machmir, he generally would find such a video expose to be grub and lashon Hara.

In this case my father while not lauding the style and method, agrees it was necessary.

Also from what I'm hearing, Rav Heller advises machon Stam and so can't really comment on this.

But if you read machon Stam site
.

Nice glad your father is pro this, perhaps he should also go a make a video about the disgusting things rabbi raskin says about the other sofrim. Maybe then you will see the truth how some sofrim all they care about is making their own name by putting down everyone else.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Mendyweiss on January 07, 2019, 10:51:07 PM
I appreciate that you created an account to respond only to my comments, it's great for my ego. Anyhow, you're making my point. Chalav stam is treif for us. Even though there are plenty of people who are matir it, it is treif for us. Same thing with these mezuzos. They are relying on obscure/not-relied-upon opinions to say it is kosher l'chatchila. But for a Lubavitcher, it is not acceptable. If he would have said, "would you use a non Alter Rebbe eruv to carry?" I would have had my answer.

Glad you are happy that I made the account took time to figure out how to use this forum
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: justaregularguy on January 07, 2019, 10:55:33 PM
Glad you are happy that I made the account took time to figure out how to use this forum
are you really  @ChaimMoskowitz  ??😳😳
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 10:57:54 PM
if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.

Brilliant. The whole "mivtzoim" excuse is a red herring anyway. Sure, they may be a handful of people who wouldn't buy a kosher mezuzah  if they had to spend more than $30 on a mezuzah. By all means, have a few on hand for that eventuality. But thousands upon thousands of these mezuzos have been sold to people in our community who would have spent more had they been better informed.

How many people buy Kfar Chabad esrogim vs yanover? That's even more Halachically acceptable and more of a matter of "hiddur" than these mezuzos.
Nice glad your father is pro this, perhaps he should also go a make a video about the disgusting things rabbi raskin says about the other sofrim. Maybe then you will see the truth how some sofrim all they care about is making their own name by putting down everyone else.

What Wolf did was terrible, so you're going to copy him?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 11:11:11 PM
Nice glad your father is pro this, perhaps he should also go a make a video about the disgusting things rabbi raskin says about the other sofrim. Maybe then you will see the truth how some sofrim all they care about is making their own name by putting down everyone else.

Machon Stam didn't / doesn't need any pr and has nothing to do with Wolff's video.

Maybe the other sofrim need to own up rather than run to a din Torah?

I don't have a horse in this race and don't give a hoot, but this is in general is as the native Americans would say "bad medicine"

If the other 7 stores were / are an issue, bais din is not an answer. You follow corporate America practices and apologise, recitify and fix
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Eliyohu on January 07, 2019, 11:23:39 PM


Another question might be, is your tzitzis and talis kosher ?

People pay alot of money for Niputz L'ishma, and will either tie it themselves or someone who they personally know a d trust.. pretty standard in the litvish B'nei Torah community..
Particularly for those who wear Techelis there's supposedly alot of fraud..

"would you use a non Rambam eruv to carry?"

Ftfy
JK

in a certain city in europe there is an orthodox shul run by a rabbi who previously practiced as a reform rabbi in america.
unfortunately, he does conversions and weddings in his reform style.
when confronted; he replied: if we (orthodox) wont do it for them, they'll go to reform.
so he does reform work for them.

if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.

*WE DON'T BEND THE TORAH!*
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 11:30:37 PM
I feel like I've been going back and forth way to much on this and tried to summarize my thoughts here, if anyone has any interest in reading for longer than 3 seconds:
https://medium.com/@Squilled/mezuzah-fraud-or-baseless-conspiracy-5b60f335a15b
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: BerB on January 07, 2019, 11:41:09 PM
I feel like I've been going back and forth way to much on this and tried to summarize my thoughts here, if anyone has any interest in reading for longer than 3 seconds:
https://medium.com/@Squilled/mezuzah-fraud-or-baseless-conspiracy-5b60f335a15b
You make it sound like you are done with commenting in this thread, but we all know you'll be back.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 11:43:57 PM
You make it sound like you are done with commenting in this thread, but we all know you'll be back.
Go back to the buyer's group thread.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: BerB on January 07, 2019, 11:46:54 PM
Go back to the buyer's group thread.
Wow, they were right when they said the DDFers are aggressive against newbies.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 11:48:41 PM
Wow, they were right when they said the DDFers are aggressive against newbies.

I've been here for years and they will throw me under the bus ;)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: BerB on January 07, 2019, 11:49:44 PM
I've been here for years and they will throw me under the bus ;)
I feel much better now.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 07, 2019, 11:51:02 PM
Wow, they were right when they said the DDFers are aggressive against newbies.
Wow, they're right when they say the people on DDF are not welcoming. SMH.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Emkay on January 07, 2019, 11:53:34 PM
in a certain city in europe there is an orthodox shul run by a rabbi who previously practiced as a reform rabbi in america.
unfortunately, he does conversions and weddings in his reform style.
when confronted; he replied: if we (orthodox) wont do it for them, they'll go to reform.
so he does reform work for them.

if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but this is the silliest thing I've read in this thread so far.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 11:56:26 PM
I feel like I've been going back and forth way to much on this and tried to summarize my thoughts here, if anyone has any interest in reading for longer than 3 seconds:
https://medium.com/@Squilled/mezuzah-fraud-or-baseless-conspiracy-5b60f335a15b

Great points though I generally don't like prose written as theater.

My issue is that machon Stam baseline mezuzos are $40 and 10/10 held up. Maybe lone Wolff point is, you can make cheap but good ? I dunno.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 07, 2019, 11:57:20 PM


Be nice or I'll pick on you  :P ::)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: BerB on January 08, 2019, 12:09:17 AM

You made me go underground for over a year and now again you go after me.

You know what's worse than the Chilul Lubavitch of being caught selling Posul Mezuzos to unsuspecting buyers? Embarrasing someone in public.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 08, 2019, 12:23:27 AM
*sigh* we are all passionate but why get nasry? Anyways I'm done here, can we sing kumbaya and get along?!  Or some uncle moishy ?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 08, 2019, 12:25:59 AM
*sigh* we are all passionate but why get nasry? Anyways I'm done here, can we sing kumbaya and get along?!  Or some uncle moishy ?
We're brothers. We're kidding around.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 08, 2019, 12:28:23 AM
We're brothers. We're kidding around.

Don't be nasry! Lol
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 08, 2019, 06:46:35 AM
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but this is the silliest thing I've read in this thread so far.
true story. i spoke to the rabbi.
regarding the mezuzas, that seems to be the excuse that i keep on hearing from these vendors: "obviously they are not the best, but if not for these they would have nothing".
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2019, 10:01:09 AM

if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.


disgustingly wrong
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2019, 10:10:27 AM
if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.

What is the difference between a pasul one and a paper one?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 08, 2019, 10:18:46 AM
What is the difference between a pasul one and a paper one?
That's exactly his point! Like the guy doing reform conversions to stop people from going to reform.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 10:40:21 AM
Bottom line though, do I need to have my 1 year old ~$200 A"R Ksav mezuzos checked?

IIRC you inquired about the sofrim that wrote your mezuzos. That should in most cases keep you safe.

I wonder if anyone buying cheap mezuzos even inquired as to which ksav this is, or asked to see them prior. Some of the samples Wolf brings look almost like they were written with something other than a quill.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 10:49:04 AM
Would you eat at a restaurant if the mashgiach goes to strip clubs (I know a few of these as does @ExGingi  I bet )

Huh?

Unlike quite a few around here, I don't know that you know me personally. I definitely don't know you, other than your DDF persona. Why in the world would you think that I know anyone, let alone a mashgiach, that goes to strip clubs?

FTR, I agree that seeing how a person acts in Shul and davens might be an indication of their Yiras Shomaim. I can tell you with almost absolute certainty that the owner of Judaica World would not talk during davening, definitely not during Kadish, and I'm pretty sure that the same hold true for his son-in-law (even before his recently assumed position of 11 months community service).
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 08, 2019, 11:12:35 AM
That's exactly his point! Like the guy doing reform conversions to stop people from going to reform.
+1
i was wondering if its just me or is everyone stupid  ???
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: shwarmabob on January 08, 2019, 01:02:29 PM
When I asked sofrim about A"R ksav mezuzos one told me that his range from $100 to $500 and to buy the best you can afford.
:o Were they on sale?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 01:20:24 PM
Familiar with any of these?
http://machonstam.com/store/mezuzas

Two interesting observations:

1. No Beis Yosef (and seemingly none of the merchants sell any of those, based on the images posted by Wolf).
2. Lowest cost mezuzah by NAMED sofer is $80, UNNAMED have 5 categories ranging from $42 to $130.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 08, 2019, 01:44:28 PM
Another interesting observation: how many of the sofrim still have the cheap mezuzos available?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 01:53:19 PM
Another interesting observation: how many of the sofrim still have the cheap mezuzos available?
Oh. There's no doubt in my mind that the bar will be raised by this fiasco, and sub $42 will no longer be available.

Writing STaM isn't a profitable occupation from what I understand. The money is with the merchants and in checking. It's a huge challenge. Writing also requires a very specific personality and abilities. I know a yungerman who used to frequent my Shabbos table when he was a bochur in 770. He told me (several years ago) that he was learning to become a Sofer. He told me that a big part of the learning was holding the קולמוס and writing techniques that would enable hours of writing without becoming disabled.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2019, 03:06:57 PM
That's exactly his point! Like the guy doing reform conversions to stop people from going to reform.
really now....
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: koplonko on January 08, 2019, 04:45:36 PM
Oh. There's no doubt in my mind that the price will be raised by this fiasco, and sub $42 will no longer be available.
Ftfy
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: cholent on January 08, 2019, 05:50:02 PM
Wow, they were right when they said the DDFers are aggressive against newbies.
Absolutely. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 08, 2019, 05:50:19 PM
Huh?

Unlike quite a few around here, I don't know that you know me personally. I definitely don't know you, other than your DDF persona. Why in the world would you think that I know anyone, let alone a mashgiach, that goes to strip clubs?

FTR, I agree that seeing how a person acts in Shul and davens might be an indication of their Yiras Shomaim. I can tell you with almost absolute certainty that the owner of Judaica World would not talk during davening, definitely not during Kadish, and I'm pretty sure that the same hold true for his son-in-law (even before his recently assumed position of 11 months community service).

You mentioned mashgichim of pesach programs that ate chametz on pesach.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 06:16:56 PM
You mentioned mashgichim of pesach programs that ate chametz on pesach.
I did?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 08, 2019, 06:44:49 PM
I did?
That may have been me. (I know I mentioned it, I don't whether or not you did as well.)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: chevron on January 08, 2019, 08:32:03 PM
That may have been me. (I know I mentioned it, I don't whether or not you did as well.)

Someone mentioned #1 mashgichim in pesach programs eating chometz (bread?) Someone definitely mentioned vodka.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2019, 09:02:31 PM
Someone mentioned #1 mashgichim in pesach programs eating chometz (bread?) Someone definitely mentioned vodka.

You didn't answer the question:

You mentioned mashgichim of pesach programs that ate chametz on pesach.
I did?

Vodka can be 100% Kosher L'Pesach.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: whYME on January 09, 2019, 06:33:45 PM
You didn't answer the question:


Vodka can be 100% Kosher L'Pesach.
In the context of the post it was clearly chometz (iirc vodka was not the word used but I'm not 100% sure on that)
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yesitsme on January 10, 2019, 01:23:26 AM
Torah is not a Litvish thing , or a Sefardi/ Chasidic thing .
It’s Hashems Torah !!
Besides The word Hashem is being removed and replaced with Lubavitch . It’s shocking.
Take your hashkafos, and go to JS !!! stop clogging a nice, beautiful TR.......
Done
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: yakrot on January 10, 2019, 03:23:30 PM
Coincidental choice for Halacha of the day email?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 10, 2019, 03:42:10 PM
Coincidental choice for Halacha of the day email?
Not one bit of a coincidence. I also saw their letter. People like to suggest solutions that sound grandiose when the solution lies in plain view!

If EVERYONE, starting from the merchants, and continuing through the consumers, would insist on having the NAME of the sofer that wrote whatever they are buying, 99% of problems would never exist in the first place. (A similar solution applies to many other areas ואכמ"ל). But unfortunately, that requires a drop more sense of personal responsibility, and since עולם גולם, as long as we can show a certificate, and the person behind the certificate has the right look, everything is OK.

I am quite friendly with a few of the merchants/sofrim in the "expose". I spoke to one of them, and he told me that he thinks it's a good solution to have every Mezuzah inspected by an independent sofer right after purchase. I asked him if he knows the names of the sofrim that write every Mezuzah he sells, as required by the letter from 32 years ago. He said that he generally does for Mezuzos $50 and higher. I then proceeded to ask him how much he charges to check a Mezuzah. $6 was his response. So why buy a Mezuzah from an unnamed Sofer for $42 and spend another $6 checking it for a total of $48, when one can spend $50 and get presumably a nicer Mezuzah with a named source?

People have to wake up, see through the marketing smoke and mirrors, and just ask simple questions that require simple answers. All of the sudden things will fall into line.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: skyguy918 on January 10, 2019, 05:11:30 PM
Not one bit of a coincidence. I also saw their letter. People like to suggest solutions that sound grandiose when the solution lies in plain view!

If EVERYONE, starting from the merchants, and continuing through the consumers, would insist on having the NAME of the sofer that wrote whatever they are buying, 99% of problems would never exist in the first place. (A similar solution applies to many other areas ואכמ"ל). But unfortunately, that requires a drop more sense of personal responsibility, and since עולם גולם, as long as we can show a certificate, and the person behind the certificate has the right look, everything is OK.

I am quite friendly with a few of the merchants/sofrim in the "expose". I spoke to one of them, and he told me that he thinks it's a good solution to have every Mezuzah inspected by an independent sofer right after purchase. I asked him if he knows the names of the sofrim that write every Mezuzah he sells, as required by the letter from 32 years ago. He said that he generally does for Mezuzos $50 and higher. I then proceeded to ask him how much he charges to check a Mezuzah. $6 was his response. So why buy a Mezuzah from an unnamed Sofer for $42 and spend another $6 checking it for a total of $48, when one can spend $50 and get presumably a nicer Mezuzah with a named source?

People have to wake up, see through the marketing smoke and mirrors, and just ask simple questions that require simple answers. All of the sudden things will fall into line.
How does the name alone help? I can know the sofer's name and have no idea if he does good work or not - and more importantly, whether what I'm buying is a rare instance of that sofer not doing good work. If the seller is not doing their own checking, and the buyer is not bringing it to be checked immediately, why does a name help?
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: ExGingi on January 10, 2019, 05:16:53 PM
How does the name alone help? I can know the sofer's name and have no idea if he does good work or not - and more importantly, whether what I'm buying is a rare instance of that sofer not doing good work. If the seller is not doing their own checking, and the buyer is not bringing it to be checked immediately, why does a name help?

Try it, and you'll see it works wonders. Let me know the next time you buy STaM of a NAMED sofer that is found posul (in a way that didn't happen after purchase, such as letter cracking due to weather or folding).

It creates accountability and a level of transparency.

The fact is that all the "problems" turned up in Mezuzos where the Sofer who wrote them cannot be immediately named.
Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Yonah on January 11, 2019, 09:33:50 AM
I am quite friendly with a few of the merchants/sofrim in the "expose". I spoke to one of them, and he told me that he thinks it's a good solution to have every Mezuzah inspected by an independent sofer right after purchase. I asked him if he knows the names of the sofrim that write every Mezuzah he sells, as required by the letter from 32 years ago. He said that he generally does for Mezuzos $50 and higher. I then proceeded to ask him how much he charges to check a Mezuzah. $6 was his response. So why buy a Mezuzah from an unnamed Sofer for $42 and spend another $6 checking it for a total of $48, when one can spend $50 and get presumably a nicer Mezuzah with a named source?

The short answers to this question:
- People are pennywise and pound foolish
- If someone is buying one mezuzah, it's a no brainer, but if someone has moved into a new home (or has just become frum, and wants to outfit their existing home) - they could be buying 5-10 mezuzos - so that $6-8 dollar difference is one or two extra mezzuos - a hard sell, especially when you're selling someone on becoming frum. I imagine that a fair amount of sluchim get the mivtzoim mezuzos for their mispallelim knowing that they can only get them to commit so much and under the assumption of being kosher l'chatchila, even to a lower standard.

Title: Re: Mezuzah Fraud
Post by: Ergel on September 01, 2019, 02:28:32 PM
What happened with this din torah?