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DansDeals Forum => Trip Reports => Topic started by: Matovu on January 05, 2019, 08:54:52 PM

Title: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 05, 2019, 08:54:52 PM
So what months is best time for Antarctica, December? Jan/Feb? what are your thoughts on last minute half prices buying the cruise tickets in Ushuaia last minute? I'm googling it is a big hit or miss and don't mind to sit around Ushuaia for a few days to save $5000.

And after reading some reports from SF I think Falkland Islands is not to be missed when choosing a cruise.

From the Moment it seems that they made sure to go at a time that they had a night of about 20 minutes. Some months there's no night at all making it more complicated halachacally...
Or did Innot read it correctly?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Something Fishy on January 05, 2019, 09:00:00 PM
From the Moment it seems that they made sure to go at a time that they had a night of about 20 minutes. Some months there's no night at all making it more complicated halachacally...
Or did Innot read it correctly?

There was no night at all.

The 20 minute comment was that regarding sunset, all shitos came to within around 20 minutes of each other so it was easy to be machmir.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 05, 2019, 09:02:19 PM
There was no night at all.

The 20 minute comment was that regarding sunset, all shitos came to within around 20 minutes of each other so it was easy to be machmir.

When you have time, can you please expand on this ?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2019, 11:20:09 PM
I can write a book on the research I did into the sunset issues.
@dirah was a massive help sorting things out. Would be great if he can share more.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: shapsam on January 06, 2019, 01:52:32 AM
In the article SF says he's planning to do it again.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 06, 2019, 02:00:45 AM
I can write a book on the research I did into the sunset issues.
@dirah was a massive help sorting things out. Would be great if he can share more.

Was all this discussed publically in the private threads for this trip?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:01:30 AM
Nope.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 06, 2019, 02:02:55 AM
Nope.

One shita written in the article.
6 years weekday, and 1 whole year shabbos...
So interesting.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: davidrotts63 on January 06, 2019, 02:08:23 AM


I can write a book on the research I did into the sunset issues.

If all else fails...
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: ah giten on January 06, 2019, 04:10:19 AM
Same shaala when traveling to HKG on the polar route and night doesn't fall, Summer, or the sun doesn't rise, winter, and you arrive two days later...
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Something Fishy on January 06, 2019, 05:08:13 AM
One shita written in the article.
6 years weekday, and 1 whole year shabbos...
So interesting.

That's the Minchas Elezar's shita.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: ah giten on January 06, 2019, 08:06:41 AM
One shita written in the article.
6 years weekday, and 1 whole year shabbos...
So interesting.
its not that weird when you look at the explanation.
day and night depends on sunrise and sunset, so if that only happens once a year, then a year = a day.
so yes, it'll take 7 years for a week.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: cmey on January 06, 2019, 08:52:16 AM
its not that weird when you look at the explanation.
day and night depends on sunrise and sunset, so if that only happens once a year, then a year = a day.
so yes, it'll take 7 years for a week.

Does that really only happen once a year all around the area near the pole, or does the sun make several passes skimming  below and above the horizon around the equinox in those areas away from the exact pole?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Zevi16 on January 06, 2019, 12:04:48 PM
If anyone is really interested, pm me and I’ll ask a family member for a psak. He has sforim on it and he travels the world too so he knows every zman and shita for every longitude and latitude
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 06, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
If anyone is really interested, pm me and I’ll ask a family member for a psak. He has sforim on it and he travels the world too so he knows every zman and shita for every longitude and latitude

Lot's of us, me included are interested in reading up on this fascinating halachic discussion.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 01:29:17 PM
For where we were going, the only shayla was for Lubavitchers.

R' Kotler gave a shiur and printed a booklet on the polar zmanim issue and the kula he was going to use for the fast based on the various dayos, but I noted to the group that it was all based on there not being a sunset, which there was for our entire trip.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: ExGingi on January 06, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
For where we were going, the only shayla was for Lubavitchers.


Especially since the Rebbe is a know "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar.  ;)
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 01:36:04 PM
Especially since the Rebbe is a know "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar.  ;)
The Rebbe's shita was seemingly the Ben Ish Chai or the Moadim U’Zmanim.

However the main shayla I had for this trip was a machlokes among Chabad Rabonim about the Alter Rebbe's shita with regards to Shika Haniris vs Shkia Amitis.
In the end we diverted for fuel and never wound up far enough south where we would have a Shika Haniris and not a Shkia Amitis, so it was a moot point.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 01:45:38 PM
The Rebbe's shita was seemingly the Ben Ish Chai or the Moadim U’Zmanim.

However the main shayla I had for this trip was a machlokes among Chabad Rabonim about the Alter Rebbe's shita with regards to Shika Haniris vs Shkia Amitis.
In the end we diverted for fuel and never wound up far enough south where we would have a Shika Haniris and not a Shkia Amitis, so it was a moot point.
I've been a Zmanim enthusiast for many years now and was well aware of the שקיעה אמיתית concept but it seems like it's only recently that it's becoming mainstream to use it for calculating regular Zmanim such as סוף זמן קריאת שמע and פלג המנחה Lechumra.
I'm fascinated by how it changes during the year.
According to my research the day is extended by anywhere between 7.8 and 9.2 minutes.
I'd be interested in reading more about it.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 01:50:16 PM
I've been a Zmanim enthusiast for many years now and was well aware of the שקיעה אמיתית concept but it seems like it's only recently that it's becoming mainstream to use it for calculating regular Zmanim such as סוף זמן קריאת שמע and פלג המנחה Lechumra.
I'm fascinated by how it changes during the year.
According to my research the day is extended by anywhere between 7.8 and 9.2 minutes.
I'd be interested in reading more about it.
The difference between Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis is much greater in polar regions. The zmanim varied by as much as 30 minutes IIRC.

For our purposes, the consensus from nearly everyone is that Shabbos starts at Shkia and ends at Alos on Sunday. However, what if you only have Shkia Haniris and not Shkia Amitis? For our dates this could have happened between the latitudes of 65.17 and 66.
Do you start Shabbos at Shkia Haniris? When do you switch to a Polar Model of zmanim such as the Ben Ish Chai? How does Chabad hold for the Polar zmanim?

Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 01:56:26 PM


The difference between Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis is much greater in polar regions. The zmanim varied by as much as 30 minutes IIRC.
Good point. Obviously t's by degrees and would change by location. My research was done for 11213.
For our purposes, the consensus from nearly everyone is that Shabbos starts at Shkia and ends at Alos on Sunday. However, what if you only have Shkia Haniris and not Shkia Amitis? For our dates this could have happened between the latitudes of 65.17 and 66.
Do you start Shabbos at Shkia Haniris? When do you switch to a Polar Model of zmanim such as the Ben Ish Chai? How does Chabad hold for the Polar zmanim?
That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 01:58:10 PM
Good point. Obviously t's by degrees and would change by location. My research was done for 11213.That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
Mostly correct and that was the general consensus as compiled by @dirah and the psak I got from my Rov. But some Rabbonim abstained or said not to go based on the chumra possibly being keeping polar zmanim lchumra.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:02:06 PM
It's interesting that most complications in planning in flight Zmanim are only about figuring out your precise latitude and longitude but once you have that, finding the Zmanim are (relatively) easy.
In your case, finding the exact location was simple, figuring the Zmanim for that location was the complicated part.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:04:53 PM
It's interesting that most complications in planning in flight Zmanim are only about figuring out your precise latitude and longitude but once you have that, finding the Zmanim are (relatively) easy.
In your case, finding the exact location was simple, figuring the Zmanim for that location was the complicated part.
When we were planning the trip we were under the impression there would be no WiFi, would make things complicated. With WiFi my job was a lot easier.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:08:06 PM
The story of the Alter Rebbe stopping the boat came up in regards to a shayla I asked about Kiddush Levana and I spoke about it during our Shabbos meal as a potential reason for the diversion which ensured we wouldn't make it to an area where there would be a question in what the Alter Rebbe might pasken.

@Something Fishy then informed me if I told the story one more time I would be fed to the penguins.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:09:02 PM


For our purposes, the consensus from nearly everyone is that Shabbos starts at Shkia and ends at Alos on Sunday.

Why not till Chatzos according to the AR if the sun doesn't go much below the horizon?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:09:43 PM
The story of the Alter Rebbe stopping the boat came up in regards to a shayla I asked about Kiddush Levana and I spoke about it as a potential reason for the diversion which ensured we wouldn't make it to an area where there would be a question in what the Alter Rebbe might pasken.

@Something Fishy then informed me if I told the story one more time I would be fed to the penguins.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:10:40 PM

Why not till Chatzos according to the AR if the sun doesn't go much below the horizon?
Where we were, Chatzos=Alos=Misheyakir
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Something Fishy on January 06, 2019, 02:13:54 PM
The story of the Alter Rebbe stopping the boat came up in regards to a shayla I asked about Kiddush Levana and I spoke about it during our Shabbos meal as a potential reason for the diversion which ensured we wouldn't make it to an area where there would be a question in what the Alter Rebbe might pasken.

@Something Fishy then informed me if I told the story one more time I would be fed to the penguins.

I am hereby resigning my post as mod.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 02:15:32 PM
I am hereby resigning my post as mod.
@Dan can no longer threaten to feed you to the penguins.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: aygart on January 06, 2019, 02:27:55 PM
I can write a book on the research I did into the sunset issues.
THen you should.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:28:39 PM
I am hereby resigning my post as mod.
Bing Bong
Wonderful good afternoon, lunchtime is well underway in the restaurant and the bistro. Enjoy your lovely lunch and I wish you a bon appetit. And for your reading pleasure:
https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380178/jewish/The-Moon-Over-the-River.htm
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 02:29:40 PM
THen you should.
@dirah would do a far better job than me. A real zmanim expert and very knowledgeable of all of the dayos.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: aygart on January 06, 2019, 03:04:40 PM
@dirah would do a far better job than me. A real zmanim expert and very knowledgeable of all of the dayos.
It is an opportunity for you!
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 03:48:35 PM
Good point. Obviously t's by degrees and would change by location. My research was done for 11213.That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
For example, here are the zmanim for Port Lockroy, Antarctica, with Shkia (Haniris) and Shkia Amitis zmanim enabled:

https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-64.8251,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=Port%20Lockroy&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

We kept Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis L'chumra.

That's about as far south as made it.

Had we made it down to -65.12, we would have lost shkia amitis calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.12,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.12&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

At -65.87 we would have lost all shika calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.87,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.87&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 04:06:40 PM
For example, here are the zmanim for Port Lockroy, Antarctica, with Shkia (Haniris) and Shkia Amitis zmanim enabled:

https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-64.8251,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=Port%20Lockroy&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

We kept Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis L'chumra.

That's about as far south as made it.

Had we made it down to -65.12, we would have lost shkia amitis calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.12,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.12&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

At -65.87 we would have lost all shika calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.87,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.87&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja
It's interesting how in a location where there is הנץ הנראית but no הנץ האמיתי, Sof Zman Krias Shema Shel Shachris (AR default) is the same as תחילת זמן קריאת שמע של ערבית.

It's also interesting to note that in the 3rd location you posted, on Shabbos there is a sunrise (since the sun set the evening before) but no sunset (and no sunrise on Sunday).
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 04:15:30 PM
It's interesting how in a location where there is הנץ הנראית but no הנץ האמיתי, Sof Zman Krias Shema Shel Shachris (AR default) is the same as תחילת זמן קריאת שמע של ערבית.

It's also interesting to note that in the 3rd location you posted, on Shabbos there is a sunrise (since the sun set the evening before) but no sunset (and no sunrise on Sunday).
Not all of the zmanim make sense. For example even if you held Rabbeinu Tam 72 minutes, you wouldn't actually wait until after Alos Sunday for Shabbos to be over.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: jose34 on January 06, 2019, 04:28:09 PM
Lot's of us, me included are interested in reading up on this fascinating halachic discussion.

+100;

@Dan thanks for the bit on insight if someone can write up more on this it would be amazing.

Also I did not read through the whole thing but for further reading on this topic there an journal article by Rabbi David Bleich:
http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2036/No.%203/Survey%20of%20Recent.pdf
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Naftali on January 06, 2019, 07:41:03 PM
Lot's of us, me included are interested in reading up on this fascinating halachic discussion.


For English Articles:

(1)   See the aforementioned article by R’ JD Bleich published in Tradition (http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2036/No.%203/Survey%20of%20Recent.pdf). See also the letter from Cyril Domb regarding R’ Goren opinion, and R’ Bleich’s response here: http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2037/No.%202/Communications.pdf
(2)   Here is the article that most easily shows up in the world of google scholarship: https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/515/when-does-one-pray-when-there-is-no-day/. For anyone interested, here is the more comprehsnive version that R’ Heber wrote in his Hebrew language Sefer: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53000&st=&pgnum=107
(3)   Another more simple read: http://dinonline.org/2012/06/03/halacha-talk-the-exotic-traveler/
(4)   The following is not an orthodox source but quotes an array of sources, including the opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. http://www.schechter.edu/a-responsum-regarding-space-travel/. He cited the Lubavitcher Rebbe in “Yagdil Torah, New York, 1981, No. 73.” I have not been able to locate this source.

Hebrew Articles and Resources:
(1)   R’ Boruch Simon source compilation on the topic: https://www.yutorah.org/download.cfm?materialID=517617 (this includes the article from R’ Kasher, Minchas Elazar, R’ Posen. Another compilation of Hebrew sources: http://beinenu.com/system/files/alonim/124_o.pdf?download=1 
(2)   R’ Taplin: תאריך ישראל עמוד תתמט (Can’t seem to find it online aside from Otzar Hachochma).


Between these sources, one will see addressed in regards to keeping shabbos:
(1) The preliminary question of whether the halakhic “day” requires a sunrise & sunset or a 24 hours (just about) period constitutes a day – this is largely based on proofs from Tanach, Gemaras, Midrashim (significantly a Pirkei D’Rav Elazar),
(2) Assuming a sunrise & sunset is required, is shabbos really every seven years!?!?,
(3) Assuming sunset & sunrise is not required to constitute a halakhic day (either on a d’orysa, or at least d’raban level [meaning, perhaps Shabbos on a d’orysa level is every seven years but to not “forget Shabbos” it should be kept on a rabbinic level every seven days – a similar, though not exact notion is noted when one is lost in a desert], what time does Shabbos begin or end:
(i) place where one left from [very ambiguous standard, what “place”],
(ii) lowest point of the sun is sunset, highest is sunrise (odd because lowest point is the sun’s general revolution (aka earth’s revolution) is chatzos, not sunset,
(iii) highest and lowest points of the sun are chatzos hayom and Layla, 12 hours in between each, six hours before highest point is sunrise, six hours later is sunset,
(iv) use the sunset/sunrise of the same longitude,
(v)  Just use Israel zmanim (Jerusalem?).

Note A: These times help for actual sunset (shkia); how to calculate tzeis, if there is a tzeis, may be harder. If ppl like using the somewhat arbitrary 60 (?), slightly less arbitrary 72 (or 90 !?!) this may get more complicated as to what makes sense.  If Tzeis is amount of degrees below the horizon, then it should be easy to figure out (relatively I guess) based on the sun’s descend from the mid-point from highest to lowest (after hour six) the generally assumed proper degrees.

Note B: These times are to figure out the halakhic day which relates most significantly to Shabbos. There are other questions (i.e. Krias Shema) which may require a separate analysis because these may require a halakhic “Layla/night” which would not exist when there is daylight all 24 hours (and vice versa in the winter) – see Rabbi Shternbuch in the quotes מועדים וזמנים who makes this salient point. Or perhaps because Shema is not a “night” based on mitzvah but a “sleeping/awaking” based on mitzah it will apply and be even less complicated than Shabbos question.

ותן לחכם ויחכם עוד.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: yesitsme on January 06, 2019, 08:39:35 PM
Could you please move it to zmanim thread, I get excited every time I see a new post only to find some zmanim talk ???. @Something Fishy pass it on to current mod thanks.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: aygart on January 06, 2019, 08:48:12 PM
Could you please move it to zmanim thread, I get excited every time I see a new post only to find some zmanim talk ???. @Something Fishy pass it on to current mod thanks.

ANd here I see a post and get disappointed when it is something about penguins...
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Blazer on January 06, 2019, 10:32:04 PM
Intresting post about the Baal Hatanyas zmanim.

https://kosherjava.com/2018/11/27/baal-hatanya-zmanim-added-to-kosherjava/
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: dirah on January 06, 2019, 10:47:45 PM
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
I just sent Dan an essay which lays out most of the issues. I am just making a couple of brief comments here on some of the posts above:
Does that really only happen once a year all around the area near the pole, or does the sun make several passes skimming  below and above the horizon around the equinox in those areas away from the exact pole?
At the exact Poles, it happens once a year only.
For where we were going, the only shayla was for Lubavitchers.
The bulk of the issues only affected Lubavitchers. But the issue of the absence of Tzeis would have affected everyone.
Especially since the Rebbe is a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar.  ;)
It is true the Rebbe was a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar, but on this point, he clearly disagreed. See Igros Kodesh Volume 2 page 94, Toras Menachem 5746 Vol 2 page 847.
I've been a Zmanim enthusiast for many years now and was well aware of the שקיעה אמיתית concept but it seems like it's only recently that it's becoming mainstream to use it for calculating regular Zmanim such as סוף זמן קריאת שמע and פלג המנחה Lechumra.
It has become more mainstream ever since Chabad.org has adopted it as their default option. But it is not the consensus, and ppl should consult their Rav, or adopt the stringencies of both opinions (which is generally not such a big deal, as the difference is minor unless you are near the Poles).
That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
But that would lead to problems where the two models are mutually exclusive. For example, Licht Bentchen would be close to midnight according to Standard Zmanim, but before 6pm true solar time according to the Ben Ish Chai’s Polar model. This leads to a conundrum: If you light before 6pm, this will be way too early if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Standard Zmanim. If you light shortly before midnight, this will be way too late if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Polar Zmanim model of the Ben Ish Chai.
Same shaala when traveling to HKG on the polar route and night doesn't fall, Summer, or the sun doesn't rise, winter, and you arrive two days later...
Indeed, transpolar flights are a major issue and many people don’t even realise. I am BEH working on an updated write-up about this.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 10:51:32 PM
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
We missed you!

In the good news department, it's been a long time since I was last served Cholov Stam or a Hamotzi roll on a flight  ;D
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: LoLo on January 06, 2019, 10:53:01 PM
Could you please move it to zmanim thread?
+1
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2019, 10:56:01 PM
+1
Topic split.
Title: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: MeirS on January 06, 2019, 10:56:20 PM
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
I just sent Dan an essay which lays out most of the issues. I am just making a couple of brief comments here on some of the posts above:At the exact Poles, it happens once a year only.The bulk of the issues only affected Lubavitchers. But the issue of the absence of Tzeis would have affected everyone. It is true the Rebbe was a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar, but on this point, he clearly disagreed. See Igros Kodesh Volume 2 page 94, Toras Menachem 5746 Vol 2 page 847.It has become more mainstream ever since Chabad.org has adopted it as their default option. But it is not the consensus, and ppl should consult their Rav, or adopt the stringencies of both opinions (which is generally not such a big deal, as the difference is minor unless you are near the Poles).But that would lead to problems where the two models are mutually exclusive. For example, Licht Bentchen would be close to midnight according to Standard Zmanim, but before 6pm true solar time according to the Ben Ish Chai’s Polar model. This leads to a conundrum: If you light before 6pm, this will be way too early if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Standard Zmanim. If you light shortly before midnight, this will be way too late if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Polar Zmanim model of the Ben Ish Chai. Indeed, transpolar flights are a major issue and many people don’t even realise. I am BEH working on an updated write-up about this.
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: dirah on January 06, 2019, 11:10:24 PM
We missed you!

In the good news department, it's been a long time since I was last served Cholov Stam or a Hamotzi roll on a flight  ;D
;D
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: chff on January 07, 2019, 12:56:27 PM
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
I just sent Dan an essay which lays out most of the issues.

Thanks for your help! - will a copy of this essay be posted?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Matovu on January 07, 2019, 02:05:04 PM
Thanks so much for the Main Site post.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: gozalim on January 07, 2019, 02:19:48 PM
The story of the Alter Rebbe stopping the boat came up in regards to a shayla I asked about Kiddush Levana and I spoke about it during our Shabbos meal as a potential reason for the diversion which ensured we wouldn't make it to an area where there would be a question in what the Alter Rebbe might pasken.

@Something Fishy then informed me if I told the story one more time I would be fed to the penguins.
If you look in the Rebbe's conversation with the chief rabbis regarding polar zmanim (ben ish chai was brought up there), The Rebbe says something very similar, that בהשגחה פרטית most jews don't end up in this shaila
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 02:37:57 PM
If you look in the Rebbe's conversation with the chief rabbis regarding polar zmanim (ben ish chai was brought up there), The Rebbe says something very similar, that בהשגחה פרטית most jews don't end up in this shaila
Link?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: gozalim on January 07, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
Link?
it's the same sicha from 5746. I can't seem to find it online (the hebrewbooks pdf cuts short on that volume)

ETA: here
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 03:30:18 PM
it's the same sicha from 5746. I can't seem to find it online (the hebrewbooks pdf cuts short on that volume)

ETA: here
Where did you find that? Have the next page?

Seems like the Rebbe was referring to where people live, though we can apply that to where we wound up as well :)
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: gozalim on January 07, 2019, 03:31:49 PM
from otzar hachocma
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 03:34:06 PM
Here is the letter from the Rebbe's Igros that the DDMS article references
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: chff on January 07, 2019, 03:39:42 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/

Thanks @Dan @dirah
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: gozalim on January 07, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
Have the next page?
attached
Quote
Seems like the Rebbe was referring to where people live, though we can apply that to where we wound up as well :)
indeed that was my intention
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2019, 03:56:43 PM
indeed that was my intention
Yup, very cool. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: jose34 on January 07, 2019, 04:33:55 PM

Between these sources, one will see addressed in regards to keeping shabbos:
(1) The preliminary question of whether the halakhic “day” requires a sunrise & sunset or a 24 hours (just about) period constitutes a day – this is largely based on proofs from Tanach, Gemaras, Midrashim (significantly a Pirkei D’Rav Elazar),
(2) Assuming a sunrise & sunset is required, is shabbos really every seven years!?!?,
(3) Assuming sunset & sunrise is not required to constitute a halakhic day (either on a d’orysa, or at least d’raban level [meaning, perhaps Shabbos on a d’orysa level is every seven years but to not “forget Shabbos” it should be kept on a rabbinic level every seven days – a similar, though not exact notion is noted when one is lost in a desert], what time does Shabbos begin or end:
(i) place where one left from [very ambiguous standard, what “place”],
(ii) lowest point of the sun is sunset, highest is sunrise (odd because lowest point is the sun’s general revolution (aka earth’s revolution) is chatzos, not sunset,
(iii) highest and lowest points of the sun are chatzos hayom and Layla, 12 hours in between each, six hours before highest point is sunrise, six hours later is sunset,
(iv) use the sunset/sunrise of the same longitude,
(v)  Just use Israel zmanim (Jerusalem?).


If so how do calculate? When do you start the seven years from?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: avromie7 on January 07, 2019, 04:57:43 PM
If so how do calculate? When do you start the seven years from?
Presumably year 1 since creation (5779 years ago) that's how we calculate leap years and shmitah. The bigger issue is calculating it in areas that have multiple days in a year meaning if one place has 2 days a year and you then move to a place that has 3, does it suddenly become shabbos if that's the day that place is up to?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2019, 11:06:59 AM
Presumably year 1 since creation (5779 years ago) that's how we calculate leap years and shmitah. The bigger issue is calculating it in areas that have multiple days in a year meaning if one place has 2 days a year and you then move to a place that has 3, does it suddenly become shabbos if that's the day that place is up to?

Is that any different than the dateline question?
Title: Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
Post by: Dan on October 28, 2020, 12:58:05 AM
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4168250/jewish/How-to-Observe-Judaism-in-Outer-Space.htm