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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 12:08:55 AM

Title: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 12:08:55 AM
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: YesThatsMe on March 04, 2019, 12:21:55 AM
@Victim 2008 your inbox is full.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 12:25:58 AM
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

No comment on the above but I will say that there is virtually no one on these forums that uses credit cards exactly the way the banks intend them to to be used. Not me. Not Dan. Not anyone. If you think otherwise you havenít been on these forums long enough. Whether thereís any problem with using credit cards in a legal but unintended way is a different discussion for a different thread...
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 12:59:11 AM
No comment on the above but I will say that there is virtually no one on these forums that uses credit cards exactly the way the banks intend them to to be used. Not me. Not Dan. Not anyone. If you think otherwise you havenít been on these forums long enough. Whether thereís any problem with using credit cards in a legal but unintended way is a different discussion for a different thread...

I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on March 04, 2019, 01:02:28 AM
I just got info on a hiemishe optical store in willi that was a swiping farm ( is that a good terminology?) That went bust.
Swiping farm or swiping for actual merchandise?  And are they also bankrupt and stopped paying?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 01:07:26 AM
I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.
Why are you so convinced that selling points is so shady or that much of a problem? I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 01:36:59 AM
I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.

More likely desperation coupled with lack of financial literacy is to blame  (in most cases) rather than tasting forbidden fruits.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: PSA2 on March 04, 2019, 06:30:49 AM
Swiping farm or swiping for actual merchandise?  And are they also bankrupt and stopped paying?
Swiping farm. No merchandise. And they stopped paying.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on March 04, 2019, 07:37:33 AM
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

Do you not notice the irony of criticizing and defaming people that legally sell points in the same post where you mention how the big of a problem it is to say loshon hara?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 07:38:11 AM
How long before Dan is told to hand over user name identifying info?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 07:45:59 AM
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

No.

I am willing to bet that many of the victims did NOT know that itís against the t&c and are only finding this out now. If anything, the merchants used their Jewish/Chassidic background to lure unsuspecting Jewish/Chassidic victims into the scheme. Itís called affinity fraud and has been discussed in this thread.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 07:48:20 AM
How long before Dan is told to hand over user name identifying info?

That would be a first amendment violation. They can only ask for that if someone made a direct threat or wrote something that indicates that they committed a crime.

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on March 04, 2019, 08:13:25 AM
That would be a first amendment violation. They can only ask for that if someone made a direct threat or wrote something that indicates that they committed a crime.
Lol, no.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 08:18:41 AM
Lol, no.

I hope he isn't the defense attorney :)
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 08:19:02 AM
Lol, no.

OK, do you believe that a warrant will be needed?

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on March 04, 2019, 08:37:45 AM
In a criminal case? Sure. Civil? No.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 08:40:59 AM
How long before Dan is told to hand over user name identifying info?

I'll ask my question again. Who wants to take bets?

And my second question: will @Dan let people know their anonymity is compromised :)
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: hvaces42 on March 04, 2019, 08:45:25 AM
OK, do you believe that a warrant will be needed?
Subpoena will suffice
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on March 04, 2019, 08:45:54 AM

And my second question: will @Dan let people know their anonymity is compromised :)

Would he even be allowed to let them know?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 08:47:01 AM
Why would I hand anything over without telling the person so that they could fight the order?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 08:50:14 AM
Why would I hand anything over without telling the person so that they could fight the order?

Would he even be allowed to let them know?

If it were up to you, sure. But my question is if it will be up to you.

@AJK, can someone restrict @Dan from letting people know that their posts are being reviewed???
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 08:51:31 AM
Why would I hand anything over without telling the person so that they could fight the order?
To what extent do you even have personal identifying information? I donít recall having to disclose any at DDF signup?

Is this a case of misplaced paranoia/overreaction?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Joe4007 on March 04, 2019, 09:03:08 AM
To what extent do you even have personal identifying information? I donít recall having to disclose any at DDF signup?

Is this a case of misplaced paranoia/overreaction?
Email address and IP address should go a long way.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 09:04:00 AM
If you are so paranoid sign up for an alternate email via proxy and use that to sign up for DD....
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 09:12:06 AM
Email address and IP address should go a long way.
I never use my main email address to sign up for forums.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 09:29:12 AM
I never use my main email address to sign up for forums.

Well depends how good you are at anonymizing your activity.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 09:34:57 AM
Well depends how good you are at anonymizing your activity.

I have nothing to hide. So I donít put effort into that.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 09:41:56 AM
In a criminal case? Sure. Civil? No.

I saw a civil case where a company subpoenad user info from discussion boards on Investorshub and Investorshub successfully fought it on First Amendment grounds.

But you are right that the Feds violate the First Amendment all the time so this shouldnít be any different. They can hack in without asking Dan altogether.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
I have nothing to hide. So I donít put effort into that.

If I see the feds looking for you in 770...
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2019, 10:13:23 AM
I hear. Iím very naive. Now I will never trust anyone again, even the tzaddik I believed SS was.

This is what did it? If anything this is pretty benign. The first thing he should be doing even if he fully intends (realistically or not) to pay everyone back in full is to have a competent attorney representing him. Representing him means exactly that. If he can get everyone reimbursed then great but that is secondary to working to ensure that he doesn't end up in prison. That is the way it should be. The issue is not him defending his interests now but rather how he took advantage of the victims before.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: elimmm on March 04, 2019, 10:40:07 AM
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 11:17:20 AM
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!

Guys, I asked a question. @Dan can feel free to remove my post, especially if it will harm other Jews as that was never my intention. I truly hope that people wonít fall into this trap again, end of story.

Iím sorry if I used the word shady. It wasnít consice and I didnít mean to be deragatory. My point is that selling points is clearly against the terms of all credit cards. In order to do it, you need to hide it from the banks and very lovely great people seem to be totally comfortable with it and I honestly donít understand how (hence my question about Halacha, culture, etc.).

Iím not naive about what goes on in DDF but I do try to stay away from all the threads about how to get around the rules the banks have set up because I so enjoy the trip reports and many other amazing things Iíve learned on here.


Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 11:22:31 AM
No.

I am willing to bet that many of the victims did NOT know that itís against the t&c and are only finding this out now. If anything, the merchants used their Jewish/Chassidic background to lure unsuspecting Jewish/Chassidic victims into the scheme. Itís called affinity fraud and has been discussed in this thread.

Fair enough, many probably truly didnít know. I appreciate your answer.  I know it may be unpopular, but then part of a holistic effort to prevent this type of horrible fraud in the future is having an open discussion and working to educate people about what financial Terms & Conditons of financial institutions are and the risks of breaking them in any form.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on March 04, 2019, 11:24:53 AM
My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor

"[T]hose rules of the goyim don't really apply to us?" 

What on earth?  I'm not sure if that statement is meant to echo someone else (or another community entirely), or whether that "I" is meant to actually signify you talking, but even if what you're suggesting is accurate -- and it most certainly is not, see, at the very least, dina de-malchuta dina -- I would hope (and expect) that moral, law abiding, Jews were raised in such a way that they know, even inherently, that it not OK to steal, malign, trick, or cheat anyone, regardless of religion.

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on March 04, 2019, 11:32:30 AM
My point is that selling points is clearly against the terms of all credit cards. In order to do it, you need to hide it from the banks and very lovely great people seem to be totally comfortable with it and I honestly donít understand how (hence my question about Halacha, culture, etc.).

You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 11:43:04 AM
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

I would add that sometimes a breach of contract can also be a breach of law. For example, inflating income to get a higher credit limit would be a breach of contract and law at the same time.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2019, 11:49:29 AM
I would add that sometimes a breach of contract can also be a breach of law. For example, inflating income to get a higher credit limit would be a breach of contract and law at the same time.


Thatís not a breach of contract.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 11:54:29 AM

Thatís not a breach of contract.
+1

Thereís no contract at that point.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chff on March 04, 2019, 12:05:28 PM
Now advertized in hiemish papers: Fly to lizensk for $2

Picture?

It's a raffle - not a CC scam
http://www.dvaryoim.com/images/Dvar_Yoim_3_4_19.pdf

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zale on March 04, 2019, 12:14:47 PM
I'll ask my question again. Who wants to take bets?

And my second question: will @Dan let people know their anonymity is compromised :)

To be clear, you want to bet that the feds will ask for the information, or that they will actually get the information?

https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/legal_ref.aspx

Scroll down to the section titled "For the record - past litigation involving Investors Hub" and see how many subpoenas were sent to Investorshub for user information. They all lost.

By the way, Investorshub is a cesspool of people posting derogatory/false information about public companies that actually hurt their stock and reputation.

@Dan you should consider adding a privacy policy and legal reference in similar fashion.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lunatic on March 04, 2019, 12:50:14 PM
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.


[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

Very interesting perspective
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ckmk47 on March 04, 2019, 01:01:07 PM
an open discussion and working to educate people about what financial Terms & Conditons of financial institutions are and the risks of breaking them in any form.
Do you actually read the T&C every time you sign that you did? Or are you depending on summaries of the T&C by other people?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 01:04:31 PM
Very interesting perspective

Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then itís ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Obviously, Iím putting aside the realities of the people who donít or didnít know. In general though, Iím very curious to know the answer to that question. If the answer is no then people who follow Halacha maybe should try their best to stop breaching their contracts with banks and if the answer is yes are we prepared to willingly pay the possible Chillul HaShem and other associated costs of this behavior?

Iím not casting aspersions, I want our communities to thrive and grow in the Derech HaShem and Iím worried that not addressing these core issues is harmful to us.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zalc on March 04, 2019, 01:07:04 PM
Would he even be allowed to let them know?
Semi-relevant:
 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 01:30:12 PM
Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then itís ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Mi shepara doesn't apply to a goy afaik but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitzgar on March 04, 2019, 01:38:25 PM
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!
I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law. Warranted or not, that's the stereotype.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: stooges44 on March 04, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law.

It's not that they don't care, they literally don't know.

I remember during the prior govt shutdown (not the most recent one) one of the chasiddish guys that works in the tax dept by us needed to call the irs and he kept calling and calling until someone finally said "hello, the irs is closed because of the shutdown" the poor guy looked so confused. To this day I'm not sure he knows what a shutdown is or means but he does now know that you can't call the irs when there is a shutdown.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2019, 02:12:38 PM
It's not that they don't care, they literally don't know.

I remember during the prior govt shutdown (not the most recent one) one of the chasiddish guys that works in the tax dept by us needed to call the irs and he kept calling and calling until someone finally said "hello, the irs is closed because of the shutdown" the poor guy looked so confused. To this day I'm not sure he knows what a shutdown is or means but he does now know that you can't call the irs when there is a shutdown.

Reminds me of the guy who allegedly tried to avoid tax at the DMV by paying in cash.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Something Fishy on March 04, 2019, 02:52:48 PM
Reminds me of the guy who allegedly tried to avoid tax at the DMV by paying in cash.

And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on March 04, 2019, 02:57:17 PM
Chinese snooker place in Manhattan had an 8% 'Cash discount'..
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on March 04, 2019, 03:00:36 PM
And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.

Yup. went to a geico approved mechanic in NY and they asked me to bring cash for a much better rate. Its not purely a jewish thing.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 03:07:15 PM
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 03:10:04 PM
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.

Only way to have this not happen is to go the Indian way (partially adopted in Israel) - ban Cash. (Did I hear anyone say let's start accumulating gold and silver coins?)
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2019, 03:10:06 PM
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.

He said it will be tax-free if you pay in cash?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: joey89 on March 04, 2019, 03:11:41 PM
And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.
Whatís the difference between non-Jewish and very non-Jewish ;)
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on March 04, 2019, 03:12:47 PM
Only way to have this not happen is to go the Indian way (partially adopted in Israel) - ban Cash. (Did I hear anyone say let's start accumulating gold and silver coins?)

well if you get rid of income and sales tax that would also work  :P
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 03:14:52 PM
He said it will be tax-free if you pay in cash?
He said he could knock 10% off if I paid cash.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2019, 03:17:57 PM
He said he could knock 10% off if I paid cash.

Thats totally reasonable and would hold true in any demographic. I was specifically referring to taxes.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 04, 2019, 03:23:28 PM
Yup. went to a geico approved mechanic in NY and they asked me to bring cash for a much better rate. Its not purely a jewish thing.
"not purely a Jewish thing"

I have seen plenty of fraud, theft, tax aversion etc etc by non Jews at every socioeconomic level.

People's (frum ppl!) perception that "Jews" are more dishonest is a big pet peeve... It's terrible.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 03:26:18 PM
Thats totally reasonable and would hold true in any demographic. I was specifically referring to taxes.
So it's bad to knock off 9% but totally reasonable  to knock off 10% for a cash payment demand?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2019, 03:28:13 PM
So it's bad to knock off 9% but totally reasonable  to knock off 10% for a cash payment demand?

Any discount is fine as long as taxes are charged on the (reduced) price.

Asking the Department of Motor Vehicles to not charge you tax on a cash transaction is another story. 
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 03:29:39 PM
Any discount is fine as long as taxes are charged on the (reduced) price.
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: boruchmig on March 04, 2019, 03:35:10 PM
He said he could knock 10% off if I paid cash.
Were you able to tell him  that you are getting more than 10 percent back using cc
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AsherO on March 04, 2019, 03:40:12 PM
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

So it's not illegal, but isn't it unethical? From a layman's perspective I'd suppose the contract signifies both parties' intent to move forward with the transaction. The liability stated in the contract, for when each of the parties breach their side of the agreement, is their exposure were they to renege on the agreement, and the extent to which the other party can seek recourse.

I wouldn't assume that ethically I'm 100% entitled to breach contract unilaterally and tell the other party to "sue me!".

#IANAL
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on March 04, 2019, 03:40:40 PM
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?

Sure, if you buy gas with cash
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
Mods, can we split off this thread and move all of these posts to the new topic?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 04:03:19 PM
Zev Brenner audio

http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/audio-credit-card-points-spending.html?m=1
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Alexsei on March 04, 2019, 04:15:43 PM
Zev Brenner audio

http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/audio-credit-card-points-spending.html?m=1

Or https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 04:18:37 PM
Good grief, where did they find a 16 year old picture of me?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Alexsei on March 04, 2019, 04:20:08 PM
Good grief, where did they find a 16 year old picture of me?
Just google image search "dans deals" it's the 10th result
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 04:23:57 PM
Just google image search "dans deals" it's the 10th result
Lol. But why that one?
Clearly this is the best one anyway:
https://www.google.com/search?q=dans+deals&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYrNXHtengAhUMHqwKHRLDA1IQ_AUIESgE&biw=1280&bih=621#imgrc=XuHf2Sb6guQkJM:
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on March 04, 2019, 04:25:13 PM
Good grief, where did they find a 16 year old picture of me?

you look the same
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 04:50:36 PM
A lot of Twerski seeming to want to frame the victims as ďinvestorsĒ and Dan setting the record straight that these were not investors; they were plain and simple victims. Thanks Dan for setting that straight.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ephraimh on March 04, 2019, 05:22:08 PM
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?
Maybe, maybe not, but giving a better price on cash is common practice.
I was in court last week for a speeding ticket potentially costing me 4 points on my license, after the judge agreed to settle and convert my ticket to a 0 point $250 non-moving violation, the clerk turns to me and says ďI recommend you pay with cash, because with credit card we have to charge you moreĒ.. mind you, the judge sat right there and nodded along in agreement, I doubt the judge and his clerk were colluding in some shady business..
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shapsam on March 04, 2019, 05:27:03 PM
Maybe, maybe not, but giving a better price on cash is common practice.
I was in court last week for a speeding ticket potentially costing me 4 points on my license, after the judge agreed to settle and convert my ticket to a 0 point $250 non-moving violation, the clerk turns to me and says ďI recommend you pay with cash, because with credit card we have to charge you moreĒ.. mind you, the judge sat right there and nodded along in agreement, I doubt the judge and his clerk were colluding in some shady business..
That's because there's CC processing fees, same with the IRS.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on March 04, 2019, 05:27:28 PM
Maybe, maybe not, but giving a better price on cash is common practice.
I was in court last week for a speeding ticket potentially costing me 4 points on my license, after the judge agreed to settle and convert my ticket to a 0 point $250 non-moving violation, the clerk turns to me and says ďI recommend you pay with cash, because with credit card we have to charge you moreĒ.. mind you, the judge sat right there and nodded along in agreement, I doubt the judge and his clerk were colluding in some shady business..
A CC processing fee is normal, but it ain't 10%.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Shotguns on March 04, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
Also, unlike a cash purchase a credit card transaction may be disputed later.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: eliraps on March 04, 2019, 05:29:11 PM
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

So hidden city for example, is legal. Ours just a breach of contract? Is this correct?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 05:33:14 PM
Do you actually read the T&C every time you sign that you did? Or are you depending on summaries of the T&C by other people?

I'll admit I don't necessarily read every page every time but because we own multiple businesses and need our lines of credit I do selfishly pay more attention than most, honestly simply because I don't want to cause harm to myself. I also admit that I've traded Hilton nights for Ritz nights and bought week Marriott certificates from awesome DDFers because I justified to myself that it's not "the same" as selling points, or swiping for others.  These tremendous losses we are seeing, scams, etc. have convinced me personally that even if these things are halachically allowed I want to stay far away from these other practices that have hurt so many others. 

I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law. Warranted or not, that's the stereotype.

I really didn't mean to imply this and I just didn't have the secular legal or halachic knowledge to ask the question correctly.  All things being equal, I'd always rather do business with someone who takes halacha seriously and hareidi people are very likely to do so.  Although you are correct that many people do have this stereotype and even as an OOTer sometimes we just don't understand how things go on in larger communities that just wouldn't happen here.  I'm not trying to blame the many good people who are vicitims or even knowingly just good people trying to earn a few extra dollars.  I really was trying to understand how sincere frum people discuss how to do some of the practices for hundreds of pages on here and how frum newspapers can halachically place ads for swiping and cc farms or a YESHIVA (I still can't really believe that even with posts confirming it) can ask their parents to break a contract, in return for discounted tuition.  These people care about Das Torah so then how can they advocate breaking a contract?

Again I should have used that breach of contract term from the beginning, instead of stealing and I do appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Mi shepara doesn't apply to a goy afaik but I could be wrong.

THIS is what I was trying to get at.  People can call me disgusting or judgmental or spreading bad stereotypes but if this is how the Psak falls on these issues then maybe that's how Torah based businesses and mosdos are literally advertising and promoting these practices?   And I hate to put it in writing but I guess it's the halacha, if breaking a contract with a Jew IS different than with a non-Jew and if people don't want this known in the outer world (I certainly don't, it's making me nauseous just thinking about it) then maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ephraimh on March 04, 2019, 05:48:11 PM
A CC processing fee is normal, but it ain't 10%.
That's because there's CC processing fees, same with the IRS.
I see.
Sounded from her that there are other fees involved as well (to quote the judge ďyeah, itíll be super expensiveĒ) but I might be wrong.

Ok, back on topic! Where are we with Mi Shepara?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 04, 2019, 05:49:34 PM
Wow this is without CM around..... imagine how this thread would look with CMís point of view!
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.

This is one point I would agree with. I believe there is a huge underestimation of the risks of potential chilul Hashem even with activity that is technically legal , especially when it is not just a handful of people but a much larger scale. Likewise, there is an underestimation of the spread of information in this day and age made by regular people as well as the Rabbonim. Whether Yiddish, Hebrew, a spoken recording, a small time local paper, etc. everything is out there and we need to start acting like it is.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?

And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: joey89 on March 04, 2019, 07:20:06 PM
And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
Therein lies the ďwin/winĒ, the merchant has no interest in saving you the sales tax without a benefit to him as well.
אין אדם חוטא ולא לו
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: knowitall on March 04, 2019, 07:32:02 PM
https://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=2336851&forum_id=771


Can someone please translate?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: pointer on March 04, 2019, 07:38:42 PM
Can someone please translate?
How bout google?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 07:44:10 PM
Can someone please translate?
Huh? With a name like that you need help in translation?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: knowitall on March 04, 2019, 07:44:30 PM
How bout google?
google actually did better than usual:

1. If you were told "do not tell anyone" or "it's a secret" - immediately run away from the deal.

2. All promises such as "safe profits", "zero risks", are at best imaginations.

3. Promises for "big profits" are fantasies or cheating (such things can only happen in drug deals or weapons and for that they do not need you).

4. Remember that a person who wishes to lie will distance his proposal (bless the Jews that his assets are close to the city).

5. The investments offered in the newspapers in the face of advertisements or small ads, ranked from very suspicious and certainly cheating.

6. If you find a contradiction. Hole or rendering in the words of the bargain offeror or a phrase like "You will not understand", is a cheater.

7. Never invest in a young student in the twenties.

8. Even a well-known trader who suddenly offers investments seems to find himself in trouble and exploits his record and his name.

9. Never run away from a sudden meteor that starts giving big sums to charity or driving in a luxury car.

10. If he is involved in the deal, even one dubious person, no matter what form, fled immediately. Do not think you're going to get some cheating, embezzlement, or theft with him. He'll steal you.

11. Those who need to reach small investors like you, is in difficulties.

12. Even if others have already profited from it, it is still "his investment" or in the process of entanglement.

13. If there are errors in contract writing or writing rules (also negligible) in English, there is no need to explore more.

14. There is no investment without documents, there is no Oral Law in business.

15. Do not sign a deal without a reliable lawyer on your behalf, and not an attorney that he offers.

16. Never sign before a few days pass, even if "the deal will probably run away." At least the money will stay with you.

17. Do not make a deal that your wife denies.

18. Never make a deal without consulting a person who has no interest: a rabbi, a rabbi, a good friend (he will surely invalidate 90 percent of the proposals)

19. If your rabbi is spoiled with a reason, the reason should not be correct, the very negation is correct (he can not always tell you the real reason)

20. Merchants (games, gamblers) in shares on the stock exchange - Stay away from them on any level.

21. People with "internal information" about "certain shares" are held captive by false beliefs. If it is true, do not need him and you.

22. Consider if you can be: at your investment of $ 20,000. Until the money reaches the destination, through the agent and the sub-agent, etc., ten thousand dollars remain for the investment. If the expectation is 100 percent, that is, 40 thousand dollars, is to earn 400 percent (since the business has only reached ten thousand dollars). All this is after taxes (40 to 35 percent), levies, currency swaps, office management expenses, CPAs, lawyers and profits that the 'big trader' has to earn - that is, no less than 800 percent.


At the end of the week "B'Kehila" pages 2-3-4-

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 04, 2019, 08:01:02 PM


I also admit that I've traded Hilton nights for Ritz nights and bought week Marriott certificates from awesome DDFers because I justified to myself that it's not "the same" as selling points, or swiping for others.  These tremendous losses we are seeing, scams, etc. have convinced me personally that even if these things are halachically allowed I want to stay far away from these other practices that have hurt so many others. 

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dave321 on March 04, 2019, 08:04:44 PM
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 04, 2019, 08:33:57 PM
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.
Are you following this thread?????
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Denverite on March 04, 2019, 08:52:47 PM

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.

I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.


 
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 09:07:36 PM
THIS is what I was trying to get at.  People can call me disgusting or judgmental or spreading bad stereotypes but if this is how the Psak falls on these issues then maybe that's how Torah based businesses and mosdos are literally advertising and promoting these practices?   And I hate to put it in writing but I guess it's the halacha, if breaking a contract with a Jew IS different than with a non-Jew and if people don't want this known in the outer world (I certainly don't, it's making me nauseous just thinking about it) then maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.
But you are allowed to break a contract with a jew also...It's just a matter of whether or not a mi shepara applies. It doesn't always apply by a jew either.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2019, 09:14:34 PM
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: unavailable on March 04, 2019, 09:17:02 PM
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.

Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 09:18:25 PM
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.
Again, why are you so convinced that this isn't halachically allowed or only allowed with a non-jew? You're building this entire thing based on assumptions that may or may not be correct. Making a chillul hashem is obviously not ok in any situation but you don't necessarily have to assume that a chillul hashem will come out by you doing anything under the sun. If halacha allows something and you have no reason to assume that, under normal circumstances, a chillul hashem will occur, then why would you or should you stay away from it?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 09:19:35 PM
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

Are you familiar with the term Contract of Adhesion?

Are you aware that Airlineís Contract of Carriage is such a contract, yet it obligates the airlines to virtually nothing (https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/blog/seat2B/2012/03/airline-contracts-of-carriage-fail-to-protect-passengers.html)?

Thereís no reason to feel bad for the airlines. They have a system that they abuse to their benefit, and when you beat them at their own game, thereís nothing wrong with that. At least thatís what courts have ruled when airlines tried to sue for extra airfare.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2019, 09:19:40 PM
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.


Did someone call it stealing?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 09:20:00 PM
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: unavailable on March 04, 2019, 09:22:25 PM
Did someone call it stealing?
just saying that even though ein ruach ... it is permitted.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 09:23:18 PM
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
I think that @aygart brought additional reasons, but I am not sure if those apply when the other party is not a natural person (i.e. A corporation).
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on March 04, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
Thereís also a difference between fraud and breach of contract. Probably several years of jail
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: hvaces42 on March 04, 2019, 09:25:00 PM
Wow this is without CM around..... imagine how this thread would look with CMís point of view!
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 04, 2019, 09:25:44 PM
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
No chance!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2019, 09:28:04 PM
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
@Denverite wrote that even if it is permitted is should be frowned upon and is the wrong thing to do. That seems exactly in line with what I wrote.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: unavailable on March 04, 2019, 09:34:19 PM

all stories upthread that also non-jews avoid taxes, proves nothing, as they happened with jews.  ;)
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: mmgfarb on March 04, 2019, 09:39:54 PM
@Denverite wrote that even if it is permitted is should be frowned upon and is the wrong thing to do. That seems exactly in line with what I wrote.
Does a mi shepara apply by a goy?
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: PSA2 on March 04, 2019, 09:51:04 PM
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
חיים מאשקאוויטש שרייבט אידיש?
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 04, 2019, 10:02:26 PM
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
you probably mean him? https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=profile;u=32631
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2019, 10:07:50 PM
חיים מאשקאוויטש שרייבט אידיש?
ניין. אבער ער לייענט מיט׳ן הילף פון גוגל הדור.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 04, 2019, 10:24:54 PM
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.
I don't think I was clear enough. I know you didn't mean to denigrate. You probably didn't mean to stereotype frum Jews either.

But imagine if Dan had founded Skiplagged. We can be pretty certain there would be no fawning reddit threads, but anti Semitic comments about thieving Jews.

While most of us don't have that kind of blatant bigotry, we ALL have prejudicial tendencies which cloud our judgement, albeit in a much more "eidel" way than those anti-semites.

These stories are happening across the spectrum of the frum world. From Crown Heights to Lakewood, Monsey to the 5 Towns and everywhere in between. My point is that to think that there is some kind of universal negative attitude that caused them is likely based on a hint of stereotyping than anything else.

If your takeaway is not to buy hotel certs, more power to you. If the takeaway is to always behave in a way that creates a kiddush Hashem and not ch"v the opposite, we're all in agreement. However if the takeaway is that these scams were born of some sort of communal "scam the goy" attitude, sorry, that's just wrong.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: good sam on March 04, 2019, 10:49:21 PM


You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

The idea of an "efficient breach" being morally acceptable is questionable at best. It's a new-age theory of law that takes a macro efficiency approach.

There are many problems with the theory:

1. In practice, the theory is wrong because it doesn't account for legal fees. The defendant will never be made whole.

2. There are cases where the efficiency itself derives from problem #1. A party might breach because it knows that it would be inefficient for the offended party to sue.

3. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party breaches because it thinks the offended party won't learn of the breach.

4. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party enters into the contract with intention to breach.

5. The theory doesn't account for the break-down in the moral fabric of a society resulting from people's inability to trust one another even with the presence of a binding contract.

6. The theory doesn't account for the emotional harm experienced by a party who has had his trust betrayed.

7. The theory is incompatible with the ideal of דובר אמת בלבבו.

So you as well make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate lawfulness with morality, and therefor fail to offer a complete treatment of the OP's dilemma.

In short, one can remain a "very lawful" person if they decide to breach a contract, but not a very "lovely and great" one.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Saver2000 on March 04, 2019, 11:27:13 PM
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?
Lol. Obviously not. He's trying to avoid declaring the income, so as not to pay income tax. If he pays sales tax on it, he'll need pay income tax on it as well.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2019, 11:28:18 PM
Lol. Obviously not. He's trying to avoid declaring the income, so as not to pay income tax. If he pays sales tax on it, he'll need pay income tax on it as well.
My point exactly
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Definitions on March 05, 2019, 12:53:07 AM
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
There's no problem of lying? I'm sure the contract says something along the lines of "you agree not to sell any points..."

Even if it says afterwards that "if you do your account will get shut". The first part is still a separate thing.

Assuming you plan to sell points when you sign up.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 05, 2019, 01:56:31 AM
There's no problem of lying? I'm sure the contract says something along the lines of "you agree not to sell any points..."

Even if it says afterwards that "if you do your account will get shut". The first part is still a separate thing.

Assuming you plan to sell points when you sign up.
I was talking about halachically. Then again, ianar and I could be wrong about that.
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Definitions on March 05, 2019, 01:58:15 AM
I was talking about halachically.
Me too
Title: Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on March 05, 2019, 01:59:22 AM
Me too
AYLOR
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: User6669 on March 05, 2019, 03:47:48 AM
ניין. אבער ער פלעגט לייענען מיט׳ן הילף פון גוגל הדור.

פדפי
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: aygart on March 05, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
I was talking about halachically. Then again, ianar and I could be wrong about that.
Which is somewhat of a separate conversation from @Denverite . SHe was discussing how regardless of mi shepara it is still not the right thing to do.
Does a mi shepara apply by a goy?
Not sure.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: aygart on March 05, 2019, 07:51:16 AM

The idea of an "efficient breach" being morally acceptable is questionable at best. It's a new-age theory of law that takes a macro efficiency approach.

There are many problems with the theory:

1. In practice, the theory is wrong because it doesn't account for legal fees. The defendant will never be made whole.

2. There are cases where the efficiency itself derives from problem #1. A party might breach because it knows that it would be inefficient for the offended party to sue.

3. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party breaches because it thinks the offended party won't learn of the breach.

4. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party enters into the contract with intention to breach.

5. The theory doesn't account for the break-down in the moral fabric of a society resulting from people's inability to trust one another even with the presence of a binding contract.

6. The theory doesn't account for the emotional harm experienced by a party who has had his trust betrayed.

7. The theory is incompatible with the ideal of דובר אמת בלבבו.

So you as well make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate lawfulness with morality, and therefor fail to offer a complete treatment of the OP's dilemma.

In short, one can remain a "very lawful" person if they decide to breach a contract, but not a very "lovely and great" one.
Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.

Are you familiar with the term Contract of Adhesion?

Are you aware that Airlineís Contract of Carriage is such a contract, yet it obligates the airlines to virtually nothing (https://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/blog/seat2B/2012/03/airline-contracts-of-carriage-fail-to-protect-passengers.html)?

Thereís no reason to feel bad for the airlines. They have a system that they abuse to their benefit, and when you beat them at their own game, thereís nothing wrong with that. At least thatís what courts have ruled when airlines tried to sue for extra airfare.

Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: good sam on March 05, 2019, 08:01:45 AM


Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.

Not really. I see in @exgingi's post a moral argument and a legal argument but neither applies to selling points.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Dawie on March 05, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
In case you haven't heard this story and it's not linked in any other thread
i think this thread needs some positive news
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-amazon-angel-yehuda-from-lakewood.html

Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 05, 2019, 01:47:58 PM
In case you haven't heard this story and it's not linked in any other thread
i think this thread needs some positive news
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-amazon-angel-yehuda-from-lakewood.html

Thank you, very nice story!
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 05, 2019, 01:49:28 PM
Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.


Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 05, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
I don't think I was clear enough. I know you didn't mean to denigrate. You probably didn't mean to stereotype frum Jews either.

But imagine if Dan had founded Skiplagged. We can be pretty certain there would be no fawning reddit threads, but anti Semitic comments about thieving Jews.

While most of us don't have that kind of blatant bigotry, we ALL have prejudicial tendencies which cloud our judgement, albeit in a much more "eidel" way than those anti-semites.

These stories are happening across the spectrum of the frum world. From Crown Heights to Lakewood, Monsey to the 5 Towns and everywhere in between. My point is that to think that there is some kind of universal negative attitude that caused them is likely based on a hint of stereotyping than anything else.

If your takeaway is not to buy hotel certs, more power to you. If the takeaway is to always behave in a way that creates a kiddush Hashem and not ch"v the opposite, we're all in agreement.
However if the takeaway is that these scams were born of some sort of communal "scam the goy" attitude, sorry, that's just wrong.

The bolded segment is a powerful example you gave and I probably did accidentally engage in that type of prejudice.

As far as the italicized I don't mean to say these scams were born of this type of attitude but I do wonder if they contribute to the general public shrug to them.

Putting aside points sellers, swiping victims, etc. and just focusing on some of the most egregious things that I think the vast majority of us would like to see stop, I'm truly trying to understand how a Yeshiva and very frum publications (who I know ask Shailas) could possibly allow advertisements for credit card farms or in the case of a school, actually do it themselves?  At best it's clear intent to breach a contract at worst maybe fraud or identity theft. If halacha tells us to follow secular law then are they saying it's not illegal and justifying it?

I truly can't wrap my mind around it and would love for someone to explain.

Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: avromie7 on March 05, 2019, 02:29:54 PM
Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)
michusrei = lacking
amana = trust
AKA not trustworthy / dishonest
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: aygart on March 05, 2019, 06:15:33 PM
Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 05, 2019, 06:42:08 PM

You are right, I missed that and googled Mi Shepara and think I figured that out.  I know Modern Hebrew but I don't want to mistranslate if the Torah usage is different.

Since you seem to have a deep grasp of these halachic issues, can you address what I asked about how it's halachically permissible for publications to allow advertisements for credit card farms or a yeshiva to open cards in exchange for a tuition discount.  Part of my total discomfort with so many things people are doing with credit cards and points it because it has led us to things like openly farming credit cards.
Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: chevron on March 05, 2019, 07:14:51 PM
How often do you hear "I'm sorry, we cant afford that" it's an entitlement society which somehow spending within your means is shameful?

Title: Re: Cheating Attitude?
Post by: Denverite on March 05, 2019, 07:41:09 PM
How often do you hear "I'm sorry, we cant afford that" it's an entitlement society which somehow spending within your means is shameful?

Actually in Denver, I hear it a lot.  It was part of the reason I wanted to raise my kids here instead of LA because I sure didn't hear it there.  People work together to create a nice bris, with stuff from Costco.  Even among very wealthy people its not common to go on crazy Pesach vacations or throw over the top simchas.  It's one of the biggest benefits of living here...