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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 06:32:04 PM

Title: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 06:32:04 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1700431/mailbag-wealthy-people-making-out-of-control-purim-parties-why-are-we-silent.html

(really might deserve it's own thread, as it's a discussion likely to turn into PC...)
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 06:41:54 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1700431/mailbag-wealthy-people-making-out-of-control-purim-parties-why-are-we-silent.html

(really might deserve it's own thread, as it's a discussion likely to turn into PC...)

What is the relevance of "wealthy people" to his point that these parties are out of control? He has valid points, but it can sure use a rewrite.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: joey89 on March 24, 2019, 06:45:28 PM
What is the relevance of "wealthy people" to his point that these parties are out of control? He has valid points, but it can sure use a rewrite.
The implication is that these parties are allowed to go on for while all these terrible things are happening the ďgevirrimĒ that are throwing these parties are writing checks to the mosdos at the party.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 06:46:22 PM
The implication is that these parties are allowed to go on for while all these terrible things are happening the ďgevirrimĒ that are throwing these parties are writing checks to the mosdos at the party.
And there are no Rabbis are willing to stand up to them?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
What is the relevance of "wealthy people" to his point that these parties are out of control? He has valid points, but it can sure use a rewrite.
Probably because those are the ones "making" the parties. I haven't been in the NY Purim for nearly a decade, but even back then, there were many "check-writers" who were hiring one-man-bands and low scale catering with a bar, at their Purim Seudos (in their homes - no tents etc.). But I can just imagine, what it spiraled into with all the ridiculous peer pressure...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Probably because those are the ones "making" the parties. I haven't been in the NY Purim for nearly a decade, but even back then, it was there were many "check-writers" who were hiring one-man-bands and low scale catering with a bar, at their Purim Seudos (in their homes - no tents etc.). But I can just imagine, what it spiraled into with all the ridiculous peer pressure...

Is there really peer-pressure to make an over the top party? That's just sad.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: joey89 on March 24, 2019, 06:52:00 PM
And there are no Rabbis are willing to stand up to them?
Heís alleging that they are all on the take.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 06:52:44 PM
Is there really peer-pressure to make an over the top party? That's just sad.
Unfortunately. Maybe someone can post the Avi Fishoff video that's running around in WhatsApp now, regarding the tens of thousands wasted because of peer pressure. I don't know how to do it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 06:53:17 PM
Heís alleging that they are all on the take.
Strains credulity.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: joey89 on March 24, 2019, 06:59:27 PM
Strains credulity.
Agreed, however I donít live in those circles.
On a side note Simchas Beis Hashoeva in Crown heights has some of these issues and not much is said about it either. The environment by some on the streets are very far from what the Rebbe intended.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: cmey on March 24, 2019, 07:03:51 PM
And there are no Rabbis are willing to stand up to them?

They are donating several times what they spent on the party to Mosdos and the fact is that the venue is not ostensibly problematic; they arenít promoting mixed genders interacting outside in the surrounding area any more than Chaim Berlin, which had the same issue, nor are they out to intentionally intoxicate underage bochurim. Itís likely that most of these bochurim would get their hands on alcohol at one of the hundreds of othe venues where there is limited supervision, so to ask rabbonim to condemn these specific events is tough. To condemn every venue where there is limited supervision is as useless as yair Hoffman suggesting that everyone give out Snapple....

I find the over the top indulgence and gluttony and craving for status and recognition  that are a focus at many of these events distasteful and something that Achashverosh might be more comfortable with than Mordechai but I can say the same about indulgence and gluttony  with many pesach hotel programs, and a good chunk of the DDF trip reports, so letís keep this in perspective....

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 24, 2019, 07:14:16 PM
Someone from the Five Towns told me a friend of his had to get his Charcuterie Boards and meat boards from Lakewood because they havenít yet really made it in the Five Towns but you can order them all over Lakewood. We are talking of massively sized boards that can go for hundreds of dollars. The over the top gluttony is already trickling down to the masses...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 24, 2019, 07:14:51 PM
They are donating several times what they spent on the party to Mosdos and the fact is that the venue is not ostensibly problematic; they arenít promoting mixed genders interacting outside in the surrounding area any more than Chaim Berlin, which had the same issue, nor are they out to intentionally intoxicate underage bochurim. Itís likely that most of these bochurim would get their hands on alcohol at one of the hundreds of othe venues where there is limited supervision, so to ask rabbonim to condemn these specific events is tough. To condemn every venue where there is limited supervision is as useless as yair Hoffman suggesting that everyone give out Snapple....

I find the over the top indulgence and gluttony and craving for status and recognition  that are a focus at many of these events distasteful and something that Achashverosh might be more comfortable with than Mordechai but I can say the same about indulgence and gluttony  with many pesach hotel programs, and a good chunk of the DDF trip reports, so letís keep this in perspective....
Well said
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 07:20:33 PM
but I can say the same about indulgence and gluttony  with many pesach hotel programs, and a good chunk of the DDF trip reports, so letís keep this in perspective....
It's one thing to indulge oneself in flying F, Pesach programs, etc. It's another thing when the main purpose of the party is to show off just how awsome you are.... And especially when it's affecting the "ruach" of a community.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 24, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
It's one thing to indulge oneself in flying F, Pesach programs, etc. It's another thing when the main purpose of the party is to show off just how awsome you are.... And especially when it's affecting the "ruach" of a community.

No different than driving a Tesla. Sure it drives nice but everyone (honest) will tell you its about the image...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 07:32:16 PM
Why is a $30,000 car an image??
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 07:42:53 PM
No different than driving a Tesla. Sure it drives nice but everyone (honest) will tell you its about the image...
Seems like you've never taken a stroll in BP in the high 50's - low 60's (streets).... ;D
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 24, 2019, 07:43:50 PM
Why is a $30,000 car an image??

Iím referring to Lakewood where people tell me that itís a status symbol that implies being successful, avant-garde, and above the plebeian masses driving camrys. In other locals a Tesla might not count for much....
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 07:44:59 PM
Sure there are Teslas that cost $130K.
But a Camry can cost more than a Model 3, so unless you know what's what and not what people tell you, that's the epitome of foolishness.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: gingyguy on March 24, 2019, 07:48:47 PM
Sure there are Teslas that cost $130K.
But a Camry can cost more than a Model 3, so unless you know what's what and not what people tell you, that's the epitome of foolishness.
quite a few people in lakewood hat made it are driving a tesla (NOT the base Model 3 ), the same way a few years ago they were driving a genesis
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: elimmm on March 24, 2019, 07:51:53 PM
Tesla is soooo last year


Lol
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yandmk on March 24, 2019, 07:53:07 PM
quite a few people in lakewood hat made it are driving a tesla (NOT the base Model 3 ), the same way a few years ago they were driving a genesis
They don't drive the oversized SUVs like they do in BP?
Seriously, you have 25 years olds in BP driving Suburbans and Escalades....
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 07:54:51 PM
We've crossed over to the jealousy thread, as I suspected from the title of the article.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: gingyguy on March 24, 2019, 07:55:18 PM
They don't drive the oversized SUVs like they do in BP?
Seriously, you have 25 years olds in BP driving Suburbans and Escalades....
seems like i see more teslas than big suvs
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 24, 2019, 08:04:20 PM
We've crossed over to the jealousy thread, as I suspected from the title of the article.

The point is that many people have status symbols. If itís not a Tesla it may be a 1400 dollar bugaboo stroller (I know Iím behind the times). Why single out these uber wealthy folks and their status symbols. I had a purim that could not have been more perfect with kids, family, neighbors, and topped off with an amazing purim seudah with friends with lots of wine, divrei torah, and roving bands of collecting bochurim and lively dancing. It was amazing (at least the parts I can remember :) ). So, no jealousy of over the top purim parties and my kids couldnt care less about what people who are wealthier than us did on purim. There are things that money canít buy. Are there over the top luxuries in Lakewood? Sure. Is it limited to the uber rich? I donít think so. Should we get all worked up about it? Live and let live.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 24, 2019, 08:05:13 PM
We've crossed over to the jealousy thread, as I suspected from the title of the article.
Yeah. The whole thing doesn't seem to bother me that much. And it's not because I'm not a zealot lol.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: nucheiner on March 24, 2019, 10:18:47 PM
Rav Moshe Feinstein's opinion was to never tell a wealthy individual not to splurge on himself, as going cheap on oneself will lead him to being stingy with others.

Nevertheless the popping everyone's eyes out is ridiculous and pathetic. However most of these individuals do such events for max 3 years then they burn out. So no point extinguishing a fire that will burn out in its own.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 24, 2019, 10:38:37 PM
It could be worse

https://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=49702
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yesitsme on March 24, 2019, 11:08:59 PM
Why is a $30,000 car an image??
for what ever reason I couldn't put my hands on one yet.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 24, 2019, 11:17:14 PM
I don't understand why everyone else has to tell people whether to indulge or not. However terrible it might be, it's their own business and they should be working on themselves and their taavos, just like we should all be working on ourselves and not others.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 11:20:57 PM
I don't understand why everyone else has to tell people whether to indulge or not. However terrible it might be, it's their own business and they should be working on themselves and their taavos, just like we should all be working on ourselves and not others.
+1
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 24, 2019, 11:27:13 PM
I don't understand why everyone else has to tell people whether to indulge or not. However terrible it might be, it's their own business and they should be working on themselves and their taavos, just like we should all be working on ourselves and not others.
People need to be aware of whatís going on these days to know what to prepare their children. The older generation doesnít have a clue of what teenagers are upto these days.....
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2019, 11:28:49 PM
People need to be aware of whatís going on these days to know what to prepare their children. The older generation doesnít have a clue of what teenagers are upto these days.....
Ugh. Why are we conflating inappropriate Purim parties with wealthy people and fancy cars. Like I said, the title of the post destroyed the main issue.

Can we decide what exactly the beef is here.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: JACKBLUE on March 24, 2019, 11:29:38 PM
Ugh. Why are we conflating inappropriate Purim parties with wealthy people and fancy cars. Like I said, the title of the post destroyed the main issue.
+1
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 24, 2019, 11:31:40 PM
Ugh. Why are we conflating inappropriate Purim parties with wealthy people and fancy cars. Like I said, the title of the post destroyed the main issue.

Can we decide what exactly the beef is here.
Good way of putting it
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 25, 2019, 06:03:41 AM
Ugh. Why are we conflating inappropriate Purim parties with wealthy people and fancy cars. Like I said, the title of the post destroyed the main issue.

Can we decide what exactly the beef is here.
The article itself directly targets Rabbis. They are the problem according to him..
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 25, 2019, 06:04:38 AM
Ugh. Why are we conflating inappropriate Purim parties with wealthy people and fancy cars. Like I said, the title of the post destroyed the main issue.

Can we decide what exactly the beef is here.
There are plenty of inappropriate Purim parties amongst the 99% as well.. shhh
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 09:15:10 AM
And there are no Rabbis are willing to stand up to them?
Why would they be taking a public stand against something they are doing in their house?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
It's one thing to indulge oneself in flying F, Pesach programs, etc. It's another thing when the main purpose of the party is to show off just how awsome you are.... And especially when it's affecting the "ruach" of a community.

I haven't seen the ruach of the community affected by someone bringing in MBD for a purim party.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 09:18:26 AM
People need to be aware of whatís going on these days to know what to prepare their children. The older generation doesnít have a clue of what teenagers are upto these days.....
THat has nothing to do with this letter at all.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
There are plenty of inappropriate Purim parties amongst the 99% as well.. shhh
And at those the inappropriate aspects can be much more intentional.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 10:56:14 AM
I don't understand why everyone else has to tell people whether to indulge or not. However terrible it might be, it's their own business and they should be working on themselves and their taavos, just like we should all be working on ourselves and not others.

I do not think you are correct here.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
The article itself directly targets Rabbis. They are the problem according to him..

The articale was written by a women INHO
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 25, 2019, 01:08:05 PM
I do not think you are correct here.
With regard to what specifically
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 04:34:56 PM
Yeah. The whole thing doesn't seem to bother me that much. And it's not because I'm not a zealot lol.

It would be fun if you could finagle about why the whole issue of wealthy people creating wild parties doesn't bother you much considering your own admission of zealotry. 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 04:39:06 PM
It would be fun if you could finagle about why the whole issue of wealthy people creating wild parties doesn't bother you much considering your own admission of zealotry. 
Or it does bother him but he is not bothered by the rabbonim not "banning" it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 04:41:22 PM
I love how easy it is for everyone to be such a kanoi about something that they wish they had the nisayon of not doing.

"Oh no, not me, I don't want to be wealthy and if I was I would just give the tzedaka anyway without the other stuff" Sure sure, keep telling yourself that.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 04:43:10 PM
Go educate your children about what you feel is right or wrong, that will do a lot more good in the world than constantly complaining about all the wrong things everyone else is doing. Stop trying to get other people to do what you consider to be the "right" thing, it's never going to work and honestly, it's not your place anyway.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 04:44:58 PM
With regard to what specifically

Civilization and jewish culture specifically are strongly based on, and influenced by coexistence within a community. Throwing a big party for everyone to attend is very much everyone's business. It affects our community and everything about it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: stooges44 on March 25, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
Go educate your children about what you feel is right or wrong, that will do a lot more good in the world than constantly complaining about all the wrong things everyone else is doing. Stop trying to get other people to do what you consider to be the "right" thing, it's never going to work and honestly, it's not your place anyway.

Maybe this is part of the parents plan? "Look son/daughter, I even made a public protest"
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
Why is a $30,000 car an image??
The price tag isn't the only factor in creating an image, and a cheap Tesla is a good example of that. Regardless, nobody is saying that a Model 3 Tesla (or Audi or Alfa Romeo Giulia etc.) is exclusively for image, but in most cases, if someone claims that image did not play a role, they are lying or deluding themselves. 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2019, 04:48:12 PM
The price tag isn't the only factor in creating an image, and a cheap Tesla is a good example of that. Regardless, nobody is saying that a Model 3 Tesla (or Audi or Alfa Romeo Giulia etc.) is exclusively for image, but in most cases, if someone claims that image did not play a role, they are lying or deluding themselves. 
OK then.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 04:48:59 PM
Go educate your children about what you feel is right or wrong, that will do a lot more good in the world than constantly complaining about all the wrong things everyone else is doing. Stop trying to get other people to do what you consider to be the "right" thing, it's never going to work and honestly, it's not your place anyway.

Not only are you wrong but you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing other people of doing, namely telling people how to act. 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 04:50:26 PM
OK then.
Feel free to elaborate.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: jj1000 on March 25, 2019, 04:53:02 PM
Feel free to elaborate.
You are assuming that most people that did something are "lying or deluding themselves", yet you likely never even tried out that thing.

I don't think a response is warranted in this case.

No need to defend what other people say your intentions are...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 05:05:53 PM
You are assuming that most people that did something are "lying or deluding themselves", yet you likely never even tried out that thing.

I don't think a response is warranted in this case.

No need to defend what other people say your intentions are...

It seems safer to assume self image is involved rather then not.

Self images can be of all shapes and sizes. The Environmentalist or the guy that tries new things, or the guy that enjoys an awesome new car... Point is self image plays into everything.

Not sure what test driving a tesla has to do with anything here.

( I really care about the other conversation, I am just commenting here because you are in the thread related to purim parties...)
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:06:54 PM
You are assuming that most people that did something are "lying or deluding themselves", yet you likely never even tried out that thing.

I don't think a response is warranted in this case.

No need to defend what other people say your intentions are...

The fact that I probably never tried out a Tesla does not preclude me from stating an opinion.
 
Let's say you had two choices: A Camry or a Tesla. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the cost was pretty similar.

Granted there are good reasons to opt for Tesla over the Camry. One of them is performance. Another one is fun.

Do you honestly believe that image is not a factor in most cases?

Even Tesla would disagree with you.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 05:10:51 PM
Not only are you wrong but you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing other people of doing, namely telling people how to act.
I don't give a damn what you or anyone else does, that's the difference, I'm only saying what will be more effective than complaining about other people, focus on the things in your control rather than on the things outside of your control.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ExGingi on March 25, 2019, 05:11:16 PM
I love how easy it is for everyone to be such a kanoi about something that they wish they had the nisayon of not doing.

"Oh no, not me, I don't want to be wealthy and if I was I would just give the tzedaka anyway without the other stuff" Sure sure, keep telling yourself that.

When I see Over The Top Weddings/Bar Mitzvah's or even Brissn, I say I wish I would have the ability to afford such an event along with the brains not to make such an event.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 05:14:05 PM


It seems safer to assume self image is involved rather then not.

Your problem is that you assume that you have to assume anything in the first place.

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: jj1000 on March 25, 2019, 05:15:41 PM
It seems safer to assume self image is involved rather then not.

Self images can be of all shapes and sizes. The Environmentalist or the guy that tries new things, or the guy that enjoys an awesome new car... Point is self image plays into everything.

Not sure what test driving a tesla has to do with anything here.

( I really care about the other conversation, I am just commenting here because you are in the thread related to purim parties...)
The fact that I probably never tried out a Tesla does not preclude me from stating an opinion.
 
Let's say you had two choices: A Camry or a Tesla. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the cost was pretty similar.

Granted there are good reasons to opt for Tesla over the Camry. One of them is performance. Another one is fun.

Do you honestly believe that image is not a factor in most cases?

Even Tesla would disagree with you.

Ridiculous. If you buy anything it is about self image, when you build a sukka it is about self image, where you send your kids to school, where you eat out, the clothes you wear and the house you live in.

In that case I agree. Every single thing you have ever done in your life is for self image.

Next.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:17:24 PM
Or it does bother him but he is not bothered by the rabbonim not "banning" it.

Is "banning" in quotes to indicate that rabbonim are not capable of banning wild parties because people won't listen anyhow? Or are you saying that they can't ban anything in the first place?

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 25, 2019, 05:20:14 PM
I don't give a damn what you or anyone else does, that's the difference, I'm only saying what will be more effective than complaining about other people, focus on the things in your control rather than on the things outside of your control.

Having control over something is not the barrier for being something to be "my business". Nonetheless when the community speaks out they exert much control (influence) over others and their wealth.

 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:20:43 PM
Ridiculous. If you buy anything it is about self image, when you build a sukka it is about self image, where you send your kids to school, where you eat out, the clothes you wear and the house you live in.

In that case I agree. Every single thing you have ever done in your life is for self image.

Next.

Oh please. You got to be kidding me. I think it is obvious that we are talking about inappropriate image.

Yes, wearing clothing is about image. Good image. Self-respect.
Then there is another type of image. Let me think....let's say someone spends 5k on a suit. Do you view that form of image the same way as wearing, say, a Brooks Brothers suit?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: jj1000 on March 25, 2019, 05:27:28 PM
Oh please. You got to be kidding me. I think it is obvious that we are talking about inappropriate image.

Yes, wearing clothing is about image. Good image. Self-respect.
Then there is another type of image. Let me think....let's say someone spends 5k on a suit. Do you view that form of image the same way as wearing, say, a Brooks Brothers suit?
So we are assuming a tesla is inappropriate.

And a spending 10x the price on a suit is the same as spending the same money on a car you enjoy more. Ok then...

I'm sorry but as said from the start this really doesn't deserve a serious reply. You don't know what someone's reasons are.

And implying a $5,000 suit instead of a $500, is the same as a $30,000 car instead of a $30,000 is ridiculous. If you want to talk about a $300,000 Ferrari you may have a point to make.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 25, 2019, 05:30:06 PM
To all the complainers out there letís try this: you spend multiples of what you spent on yourself for purim to sponsor kollel yungerleit and then you can kvetch about others. Deal?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:39:57 PM
So we are assuming a tesla is inappropriate.

And a spending 10x the price on a suit is the same as spending the same money on a car you enjoy more. Ok then...

I'm sorry but as said from the start this really doesn't deserve a serious reply. You don't know what someone's reasons are.

And implying a $5,000 suit instead of a $500, is the same as a $30,000 car instead of a $30,000 is ridiculous. If you want to talk about a $300,000 Ferrari you may have a point to make.

Note: I wrote "inappropriate image" not "inappropriate". Not qualifying what inappropriate means leads to things never intended. We are talking about image. I wrote specifically about inappropriate or unhealthy image.

Anyway, you agree about a 300k Ferrari. So it's just a question about where to draw the line.

I assert that for most "regular" people a Tesla or a $5000 suit is partially about unhealthy image, as did someone upthread. Feel free to disagree. 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:42:11 PM
To all the complainers out there letís try this: you spend multiples of what you spent on yourself for purim to sponsor kollel yungerleit and then you can kvetch about others. Deal?

One thing has nothing to do with the other.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2019, 05:43:07 PM
Note: I wrote "inappropriate image" not "inappropriate". Not qualifying what inappropriate means leads to things never intended. We are talking about image. I wrote specifically about inappropriate or unhealthy image.

Anyway, you agree about a 300k Ferrari. So it's just a question about where to draw the line.

I assert that for most "regular" people a Tesla or a $5000 suit is partially about unhealthy image, as did someone upthread. Feel free to disagree. 

I'm with JJ here. This is so dumb it does not merit a response.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:45:34 PM
I'm with JJ here. This is so dumb it does not merit a response.

Is that an attempt to get out of discussing the finer details of the argument?
I don't see why a discussion on what forms of spending are healthy is any dumber than a million discussions on this amazing forum.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2019, 05:48:34 PM
Is that an attempt to get out of discussing the finer details of the argument?
I don't see why a discussion on what forms of spending are healthy is any dumber than a million discussions on this amazing forum.


The only fine details I am seeing in anything you are writing is that you are very jealous. Of the three items which are motzi'in es ho'odom min haolam jealosy is first. Kovod is third.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:50:13 PM
The only fine details I am seeing in anything you are writing is that you are very jealous. Of the three items which are motzi'in es ho'odom min haolam jealosy is first. Kovod is third.

I am simply continuing a discussion I find interesting and attempting to argue my position.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 05:51:18 PM
Is "banning" in quotes to indicate that rabbonim are not capable of banning wild parties because people won't listen anyhow? Or are you saying that they can't ban anything in the first place?

And by the way, you put the word banning in quotes. Could you explain?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2019, 06:20:29 PM
The only fine details I am seeing in anything you are writing is that you are very jealous. Of the three items which are motzi'in es ho'odom min haolam jealosy is first. Kovod is third.
Jealousy so strong that it blinds common sense R"L.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 06:21:22 PM
Having control over something is not the barrier for being something to be "my business". Nonetheless when the community speaks out they exert much control (influence) over others and their wealth.
Yea yea, gives your money for my all important moisid. Oh also let me tell you how you should and shouldn't spend the rest of your money.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 25, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
Jealousy so strong that it blinds common sense R"L.
As do the other two
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 06:49:08 PM
As do the other two

100%. And to the point of this thread, throwing a retardedly expensive Purim party with singers, bands, waiters, expensive booze, bouncers, etc. is a glorious example of kavod seeking that causes kinah and taavah. What a colossal shame.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
100%. And to the point of this thread, throwing a retardedly expensive Purim party with singers, bands, waiters, expensive booze, bouncers, etc. is a glorious example of kavod seeking that causes kinah and taavah. What a colossal shame.
Why do you propose to know why all of these people make these parties? Besides for the fact that somebody else's "struggle" with kavod is, quite frankly, none of your business.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 25, 2019, 07:17:04 PM
It would be fun if you could finagle about why the whole issue of wealthy people creating wild parties doesn't bother you much considering your own admission of zealotry.
Or it does bother him but he is not bothered by the rabbonim not "banning" it.
As I posted already, inappropriate Purim parties are not at all restricted to the 1%.

I know of regular middle class couples who celebrated in a way that I would deem to be very inappropriate as well. And this all does technically bother me. Would you really like a 1000 word essay/rant against the new shallow culture of materialism? Meh, I don't have the energy..

So what exactly is the big deal if some rich dude throws a ridiculous party? To me personally it does absolutely nothing to impress, I basically couldn't care less.. I may shake my head and mutter something about kids these days...

Whoever wrote that OP letter though is despicable. They obviously hate rabbonim and we're just looking for an excuse to disparage them. It has nothing to do with the writers great pains about the party. I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.. this whole crises has nothing to do with the poor loser who needed to show off his success... Let them enjoy it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 25, 2019, 07:18:42 PM
As I posted already, inappropriate Purim parties are not at all restricted to the 1%.

I know of regular middle class couples who celebrated in a way that I would deem to be very inappropriate as well. And this all does technically bother me. Would you really like a 1000 word essay/rant against the new shallow culture of materialism? Meh, I don't have the energy..

So what exactly is the big deal if some rich dude throws a ridiculous party? To me personally it does absolutely nothing to impress, I basically couldn't care less.. I may shake my head and mutter something about kids these days...

Whoever wrote that OP letter though is despicable. They obviously hate rabbonim and we're just looking for an excuse to disparage them. It has nothing to do with the writers great pains about the party. I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.. this whole crises has nothing to do with the poor loser who needed to show off his success... Let them enjoy it.
+100
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dave321 on March 25, 2019, 08:15:22 PM
I was by 2 such parties in Lakewood on Purim. One allegedly spent upwards of 250k for one night. We are talking mbd, full bar, massive band a whole team of bouncers and the list goes on and on. The other was prob in the 100k range. These are young guys that have something to prove. They want to show they are in the big leauges. Remember rechnitz used to do this every year until he stopped.

Not sure why we need rabbonim to shut it down. Everyone should watch their own kids.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yard sale on March 25, 2019, 09:05:25 PM
I was by 2 such parties in Lakewood on Purim. One allegedly spent upwards of 250k for one night. We are talking mbd, full bar, massive band a whole team of bouncers and the list goes on and on. The other was prob in the 100k range. These are young guys that have something to prove. They want to show they are in the big leauges. Remember rechnitz used to do this every year until he stopped.

Not sure why we need rabbonim to shut it down. Everyone should watch their own kids.

My kids like to show off their purim fireworks. Who cares?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: cozmohoot on March 25, 2019, 09:29:22 PM
When I see Over The Top Weddings/Bar Mitzvah's or even Brissn, I say I wish I would have the ability to afford such an event along with the brains not to make such an event.
Like.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: 12HRS on March 25, 2019, 10:23:31 PM
100%. And to the point of this thread, throwing a retardedly expensive Purim party with singers, bands, waiters, expensive booze, bouncers, etc. is a glorious example of kavod seeking that causes kinah and taavah. What a colossal shame.


It seems safer to assume self image is involved rather then not.

All I can assume here is that you both have no clue what the others reasoning is.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 25, 2019, 11:52:49 PM
Why do you propose to know why all of these people make these parties? Besides for the fact that somebody else's "struggle" with kavod is, quite frankly, none of your business.


All I can assume here is that you both have no clue what the others reasoning is.

Actually, somebody else's struggle for kavod is everyone else's business when it is clearly directed at everyone else. Is the public only entitled to attend the wild ultra expensive disco party but not to formulate an opinion about it? That's juvenile.

And the reason I gave is the same one you did. A struggle for kavod. The sad part is that some people have zero control over said struggle.

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 25, 2019, 11:57:34 PM
Actually, somebody else's struggle for kavod is everyone else's business when it is clearly directed at everyone else. Is the public only entitled to attend the wild ultra expensive disco party but not to formulate an opinion about it? That's juvenile.

And the reason I gave is the same one you did. A struggle for kavod. The sad part is that some people have zero control over said struggle.
Why I don't I give you $20MM and see how you "struggle with kavod." This is besides for the fact that you can assume why people make these parties from today till tomorrow, and you may even be right about some of them, but you definitely won't be right about all of them.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 12:05:20 AM
Actually, somebody else's struggle for kavod is everyone else's business when it is clearly directed at everyone else. Is the public only entitled to attend the wild ultra expensive disco party but not to formulate an opinion about it? That's juvenile.

And the reason I gave is the same one you did. A struggle for kavod. The sad part is that some people have zero control over said struggle.
We aren't talking about formulating an opinion. Everyone is free to have an opinion about anything under the sun. We are talking about public bashing including bashing rabbonim who may not agree with said opinions, and trying to interfere with other peoples personal decisions.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:05:51 AM
Why I don't I give you $20MM and see how you "struggle with kavod." This is besides for the fact that you can assume why people make these parties from today till tomorrow, and you may even be right about some of them, but you definitely won't be right about all of them.

You make a valid point. Do not judge a man until you stand in his shoes. Maybe if I made millions I would also be tempted to throw an insane 250k Purim party (or whatever it costed).

That said, I don't understand your thing about other reasons. Clearly, such people are trying to prove themselves. They want to show the world that they made it in the big leagues. Just read all the comments of the people who were actually there. So what's your point? That these guys have other reasons too? OK great.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:10:12 AM
You make a valid point. Do not judge a man until you stand in his shoes. Maybe if I made millions I would also be tempted to throw an insane 250k Purim party (or whatever it costed).

That said, I don't understand your thing about other reasons. Clearly, such people are trying to prove themselves. They want to show the world that they made it in the big leagues. Just read all the comments of the people who were actually there. So what's your point? That these guys have other reasons too? OK great.
Even if that's true, so what? Since when did it become your job to tell someone that he shouldn't do anything to "show the world they made it" are you these people's spiritual advisor?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 12:13:02 AM
The fact that I probably never tried out a Tesla does not preclude me from stating an opinion.
 
Let's say you had two choices: A Camry or a Tesla. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the cost was pretty similar.

Granted there are good reasons to opt for Tesla over the Camry. One of them is performance. Another one is fun.

Do you honestly believe that image is not a factor in most cases?

Even Tesla would disagree with you.
Note: I wrote "inappropriate image" not "inappropriate". Not qualifying what inappropriate means leads to things never intended. We are talking about image. I wrote specifically about inappropriate or unhealthy image.

Anyway, you agree about a 300k Ferrari. So it's just a question about where to draw the line.

I assert that for most "regular" people a Tesla or a $5000 suit is partially about unhealthy image, as did someone upthread. Feel free to disagree. 


Image was literally 0% of the equation. I was perfectly happy driving around a $500 beater until it broke down and my wife said I needed to buy a car. I was perfectly happy driving a $19K Altima for 8 years and then flipping it before it started needing maintenance.

Along came a car that's a complete paradigm shift in driving. You don't need to waste time filling it up with gas imported from countries that want to destroy us. You don't need to worry about losing the key as there is no key. You don't have to worry about wasting time on oil changes and engine maintenance as those don't exist. And it's more like piloting an awesome rocketship than driving a car. And the government offered me a $7,500 handout to go green and buy it.

So you're saying it's better for "regular people" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean?!?) to spend $30,000 on an inferior Camry than $30,000 on a Tesla because in your mind it's giving off an "image."

I have a newsflash for you. The only one thinking about what image it's giving off is you sir. And it sure isn't pretty.

Feel free to elaborate.
Stop worrying about what other people spend and what other people do and start worrying about how you can be a better Jew. You will never be happy always worrying about what someone else is doing wrong as you can never fix that. When you see image problems in others take it as a mirror from above to look inward. That's what I strive to do at least when I see something that bothers me.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:14:08 AM
Even if that's true, so what? Since when did it become your job to tell someone that he shouldn't do anything to "show the world they made it" are you these people's spiritual advisor?

Yes, it is a Jew's job to tell the world to do the right thing, especially when a huge chillul Hashem is being made.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:16:18 AM
Yes, it is a Jew's job to tell the world to do the right thing, especially when a huge chillul Hashem is being made.
Methinks need to learn a little more and talk a little less.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:16:51 AM
Stop worrying about what other people spend and what other people do and start worrying about how you can be a better Jew. You will never be happy always worrying about what someone else is doing wrong as you can never fix that. When you see image problems in others take it as a mirror from above to look inward. That's what I strive to do at least when I see something that bothers me.
+1 Well said.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:22:08 AM
stop worrying about what other people spend and what other people do and start worrying about how you can be a better Jew.

Good point, but this thread is about the article on The Yeshiva World about people all over New York and New Jersey throwing over the top Purim parties. And a lot of people there and here agree that it's a problem. Are you saying they all these people should stop worrying about things that negatively affect the youth and just worry about themselves?

I think they should do both. They should worry about themselves and worry about issues that affect the Jewish community. It isn't mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 12:25:53 AM
I think the bottom line is that there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with making these parties. The only taanah mentioned so far is that they could've spent money better on other things, and that the motivation isn't good. But bottom line, it isn't any of our business to tell people how they should be spending their money (especially considering many spend a lot more on what even the complainers consider good), and what their motivation should be, or how they should be working on themselves.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 12:27:20 AM
Good point, but this thread is about the article on The Yeshiva World about people all over New York and New Jersey throwing over the top Purim parties. And a lot of people there and here agree that it's a problem. Are you saying they all these people should stop worrying about things that negatively affect the youth and just worry about themselves?

I think they should do both. They should worry about themselves and worry about issues that affect the Jewish community. It isn't mutually exclusive.
The parties aren't negativly affecting youth any more than a pizza shop affects youth by being open and youths hanging out there
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 12:27:23 AM
Good point, but this thread is about the article on The Yeshiva World about people all over New York and New Jersey throwing over the top Purim parties. And a lot of people there and here agree that it's a problem. Are you saying they all these people should stop worrying about things that negatively affect the youth and just worry about themselves?

I think they should do both. They should worry about themselves and worry about issues that affect the Jewish community. It isn't mutually exclusive.
Good deflection, but you were the ones making this about Teslas and why it's better to spend $30K on a worse car than a $30K Tesla due to "image."
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Denverite on March 26, 2019, 12:30:18 AM
You make a valid point. Do not judge a man until you stand in his shoes. Maybe if I made millions I would also be tempted to throw an insane 250k Purim party (or whatever it costed).

That said, I don't understand your thing about other reasons. Clearly, such people are trying to prove themselves. They want to show the world that they made it in the big leagues. Just read all the comments of the people who were actually there. So what's your point? That these guys have other reasons too? OK great.

@Shkop we can be concerned about something we see without maligning others intent.  Iím horribly guilty of that myself and try to be careful not to do it.. Many people probably may want to show that they ďmade itĒ but there can also be other positive reasons  as well. I remember being flabbergasted at one of my first Simchas I attended with my husbandís Persian family. It was a bar mitzvah that cost MANY multiples of my (very nice) wedding. I made some kind of rude comment about why they needed to waste so much money and show off to this extent, and what a horrible example they were setting for the bar mitzvah boy. One of my in-laws explained that the parents never got to have a proper wedding as they were leaving Iran as refugees and now decades later they HAD ďmade itĒ and it just made them so happy to be able to celebrate, and really share the simcha with everyone, have a huge Jewish party that the Mullahs in Iran would despise and finally get to enjoy after working so hard. Obviously, many of these kinds of events are meant to be statements but we shouldnít assume what that statement is and we definitely shouldnít assume it comes from a negative character trait.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:31:00 AM
Good deflection, but you were the ones making this about Teslas and why it's better to spend $30K on a worse car than a $30K Tesla due to "image."

I only brought that up because someone else used a Tesla as an example of something purchased for image to which you argued vehemently.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:33:54 AM
I think the bottom line is that there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with making these parties. The only taanah mentioned so far is that they could've spent money better on other things, and that the motivation isn't good. But bottom line, it isn't any of our business to tell people how they should be spending their money (especially considering many spend a lot more on what even the complainers consider good), and what their motivation should be, or how they should be working on themselves.

I beg to differ.

Here is a small part of the letter:

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.


Is there nothing intrinsically wrong with endangering kids so that Hatzolah needs to be called multiple times, boys and girls mingling, and little boys getting toasted on all types of hard liquor? I think there is a lot wrong.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:35:30 AM
The parties aren't negativly affecting youth any more than a pizza shop affects youth by being open and youths hanging out there

Please read the letter (assuming all points are true). I kind of am beginning to think you never actually read it...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:35:39 AM
I beg to differ.

Here is a small part of the letter:

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.


Is there nothing intrinsically wrong with endangering kids so that Hatzolah needs to be called multiple times, boys and girls mingling, and little boys getting toasted on all types of hard liquor? I think there is a lot wrong.
Do you honestly think that's not going to happen at all if we "shut down" certain parties?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:36:31 AM
Please read the letter (assuming all points are true). I kind of am beginning to think you never actually read it...
You're just deluding yourself as to who and what is to blame for the kind's of behavior that the writer of the letter says is happening at these parties.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Definitions on March 26, 2019, 12:37:31 AM
Image was literally 0% of the equation. I was perfectly happy driving around a $500 beater until it broke down

Along came a car that's a complete paradigm shift in driving. You don't need to waste time filling it up with gas imported from countries that want to destroy us. You don't need to worry about losing the key as there is no key. You don't have to worry about wasting time on oil changes and engine maintenance as those don't exist. And it's more like piloting an awesome rocketship than driving a car. And the government offered me a $7,500 handout to go green and buy it.
+1

 the moshol with the Tesla being about image is for sure not by all people.

I would gladly buy a Tesla that has a Camry shell. (as long as I like the way it looks) Nothing to do with the head turning I'd get. If anything I get more of a image boost thingy out of my current jalopy of a car due to it's uniqueness.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 12:37:38 AM
I beg to differ.

Here is a small part of the letter:

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.


Is there nothing intrinsically wrong with endangering kids so that Hatzolah needs to be called multiple times, boys and girls mingling, and little boys getting toasted on all types of hard liquor? I think there is a lot wrong.
There are plenty of inappropriate Purim parties amongst the 99% as well.. shhh
The only reason to pick on the 1% parties is because it's an easy target for the 99%.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Denverite on March 26, 2019, 12:40:03 AM
The only reason to pick on the 1% parties is because it's an easy target for the 99%.

+1000
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:40:20 AM
Do you honestly think that's not going to happen at all if we "shut down" certain parties?

While nobody is capable of literally preventing such parties, raising awareness is certainly a good thing!
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 12:41:38 AM
+1

 the moshol with the Tesla being about image is for sure not by all people.

I would gladly buy a Tesla that has a Camry shell. (as long as I like the way it looks) Nothing to do with the head turning I'd get. If anything I get more of a image boost thingy out of my current jalopy of a car due to it's uniqueness.
There's definitely a certain image that having a Tesla portrays to the public, regardless of the price. That doesn't mean that image had anything to do with anyone's reasons for purchasing their car though.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:44:03 AM
You're just deluding yourself as to who and what is to blame for the kind's of behavior that the writer of the letter says is happening at these parties.

I don't think anyone is deluding themselves by saying that there is room to blame the people that actually pay for events that result in kids getting so slammed that Hatzalah needs to constantly be dashing into the place. It's a super logical conclusion.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 12:44:47 AM
There's definitely a certain image that having a Tesla portrays to the public, regardless of the price. That doesn't mean that image had anything to do with anyone's reasons for purchasing their car though.
Only because people don't realize that they can go buy one today for $30K. Within a year or 2 at the most, everyone and their mother will have one.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 12:47:15 AM
I think they should do both. They should worry about themselves and worry about issues that affect the Jewish community. It isn't mutually exclusive.
Jealousy isn't a pretty image. Do you also protest teens mingling at pizza shops on motzash?

The whole concept of worrying about what others spend is just so strange.

Someone in shul this past Shabbos was saying how nobody should spend more than $20 on all their shaluch manos combined as anything more than $20 should be allocated to better causes.

I said I spent $4 each (A box of P"Y Oreo thins and a small bottle of chocolate milk) on 50 that we gave out and don't regret that at all, in fact many people commented how nice it was to having something they weren't going to dump right into the trash while others commented how this was the first time in their life they had ever gotten to eat Oreos.

To which the person responded, but why not allocate the $180 towards tzedaka. I said what I gave to tzedaka is quite frankly none of your business, but I gave generously to many causes on Purim and that the number would be no different had I spent $20 or $200 on Shaluch manos. So why kvetch about what others spend on it?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:56:02 AM
Jealousy isn't a pretty image. Do you also protest teens mingling at pizza shops on motzash?

The whole concept of worrying about what others spend is just so strange.

Someone in shul this past Shabbos was saying how nobody should spend more than $20 on all their shaluch manos combined as anything more than $20 should be allocated to better causes.

I said I spent $4 each (A box of P"Y Oreo thins and a small bottle of chocolate milk) on 50 that we gave out and don't regret that at all, in fact many people commented how nice it was to having something they weren't going to dump right into the trash while others commented how this was the first time in their life they had ever gotten to eat Oreos.

To which the person responded, but why not allocate the $180 towards tzedaka. I said what I gave to tzedaka is quite frankly none of your business, but I gave generously to many causes on Purim and that the number would be no different had I spent $20 or $200 on Shaluch manos. So why kvetch about what others spend on it?

I agree that in many instances people shouldn't care. Keeping up with the Cohens is stupid. Who cares about what the next guy spends on his shaluch manos?

BUT that doesn't mean we should ignore it in all instances. If someone decides to throw a wild, expensive Purim party that results in little kids getting hammered, inappropriate mingling, Hatzolah needing to haul away stone drunk kids ....then I'm sure the Torah wants us to care. And the point about mingling at pizza shops is probably something we as a community should care about, but it wasn't the topic of this thread.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:02:24 AM
Who cares about what the next guy spends on his shaluch manos?
I'd guess people like you. Once you care about what car someone drives or how nice their bar mitzvahs are, it becomes an obsession and you can about it all.

I agree that in many instances people shouldn't care. Keeping up with the Cohens is stupid. Who cares about what the next guy spends on his shaluch manos?

BUT that doesn't mean we should ignore it in all instances. If someone decides to throw a wild, expensive Purim party that results in little kids getting hammered, inappropriate mingling, Hatzolah needing to haul away stone drunk kids ....then I'm sure the Torah wants us to care. And the point about mingling at pizza shops is probably something we as a community should care about, but it wasn't the topic of this thread.
Back to my original problem with the article. Decide what exactly the beef is, Rabbis, fancy parties, or unsupervised kids?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 01:05:08 AM
Only because people don't realize that they can go buy one today for $30K. Within a year or 2 at the most, everyone and their mother will have one.
Wasn't saying it had any basis in reality, just that the image that Tesla built up around themselves is still there even when you're driving a base model 3.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 01:08:45 AM
I'd guess people like you. Once you care about what car someone drives or how nice their bar mitzvahs are, it becomes an obsession and you can about it all.
Well, you would be wrong. I care about parties that are atrocious like in the letter and somebody used Tesla as a comparison to which I agreed. You became defensive because you blog about owning one. But if you are right that Tesla is a bad comparison, then I'm all for using another example. Rolls Royce. There we go. Now we can all sing the Kumbaya.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:09:45 AM
Wasn't saying it had any basis in reality, just that the image that Tesla built up around themselves is still there even when you're driving a base model 3.
The image was built based on years of selling 6 figure cars and falcon doors.

There's no way they keep that image as the Model 3 and Y go mainstream. There's nothing luxurious about a Model 3 other than it being high-tech and fun to drive.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 01:11:10 AM
Well, you would be wrong. I care about parties that are atrocious like in the letter and somebody used Tesla as a comparison to which I agreed. You became defensive because you blog about owning one. But if you are right that Tesla is a bad comparison, then I'm all for using another example. Rolls Royce. There we go. Now we can all sing the Kumbaya.
If someone handed out millions of dollars in checks from his Rolls on Purim I wouldn't care about that either. I don't understand why you care so much about what other people spend their money on at all, it's non of your business. As Dan said, pick which part you actually care about and we can address it but you're just all over the place spewing nonsense.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 01:14:23 AM
If someone handed out millions of dollars in checks from his Rolls on Purim I wouldn't care about that either.

If only that was the issue. Again, you probably never read the letter or don't care about what it said. It was about wild Purim parties that were dangerous, and more. I hope that isn't difficult to comprehend.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yesitsme on March 26, 2019, 01:14:29 AM
@Dan could I redeem my HT for a DO in your tesla?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: EliJelly on March 26, 2019, 01:15:46 AM
I'm with JJ here. This is so dumb it does not merit a response.
Pure suburban Clevelander soul.. You sure have no image intentions.. but here in the "city" (Brooklyn,Lakewood etc) there is surely an image factor of driving a Tesla when the rest of the people didn't gave up yet the Siennas and Oddesys..
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:15:57 AM
If only that was the issue. Again, you probably never read the letter or don't care about what it said. It was about wild Purim parties that were dangerous, and more. I hope that isn't difficult to comprehend.
Maybe you wrote the article as you are just as confused about pointing out what exactly you are outraged about.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:18:28 AM
Pure suburban Clevelander soul.. You sure have no image intentions.. but here in the "city" (Brooklyn,Lakewood etc) there is surely an image factor of driving a Tesla when the rest of the people didn't gave up yet the Siennas and Oddesys..
My wife drives a 6 year old Ody and it's a very practical family car and will hopefully last another 6 years. But it also happens to cost more than a Model 3.

Maybe in NYC you can get away with sharing one car, but you certainly can't OOT.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 01:19:11 AM
If only that was the issue. Again, you probably never read the letter or don't care about what it said. It was about wild Purim parties that were dangerous, and more. I hope that isn't difficult to comprehend.
I did read the letter, if you want to pick which of the "problems" mentioned in the article you actual care about we can address them. So far I think we've established that other people's money isn't your business but that you still think it is.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:19:28 AM
@Dan could I redeem my HT for a DO in your tesla?
You can redeem 0 HTs for a free 8 day rental directly from Tesla :)

Last time I loaned out my car it came back totaled  >:(
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 01:22:06 AM
Maybe you wrote the article as you are just as confused about pointing out what exactly you are outraged about.
Haha. Strike and a miss. Never wrote it.
I didn't find the letter confusing. It was actually pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2019, 01:23:29 AM
Haha. Strike and a miss. Never wrote it.
I didn't find the letter confusing. It was actually pretty straightforward.
Good lord. http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=tongue+in+cheek

As I said before, the letter conflates multiple issues. Therefore it's not effective.

Good night sir.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 01:26:17 AM
I did read the letter, if you want to pick which of the "problems" mentioned in the article you actual care about we can address them.

Ok so have at it. Here are two of the paragraphs from the article. I bolded some of the problems. Feel free to address them.

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 01:42:32 AM


As I said before, the letter conflates multiple issues. Therefore it's not effective.
Agreed

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: eyj on March 26, 2019, 04:23:40 AM
Good lord. http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=tongue+in+cheek

As I said before, the letter conflates multiple issues. Therefore it's not effective.

Good night sir.

After reading this thread I have to say the letter writer missed the main issue: social media. Before the days of WhatsApp and online forums, only yentas and those with their noses in everyone elseís business would know or care what someone else in a different social circle spent on his purim party. Today itís everyone elseís business to discuss, analyze , and write letters to complain about. I wish it were still the 1990ís so I would have my 20 wasted minutes back.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Moshe123 on March 26, 2019, 07:09:38 AM
Thanks for the popcorn.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 08:17:40 AM
Ok so have at it. Here are two of the paragraphs from the article. I bolded some of the problems. Feel free to address them.

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.

It has already been pointed out many times that there is no reason to blame the 1 percenters for unsupervised kids. If you want to increase awareness of not having alcohol available for teenagers, that is something which is not remotely limited to party throwers, and again, would probably be more effective if parents dealt with their kids about.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sky121 on March 26, 2019, 09:08:56 AM
Hard to comment on this thread when it's been taken in many different directions.  I agree that focusing on the wealth aspect ruined the article. Hard to know what the writer really has issue with. The drinking and things that go on is a problem every year. In the name of religion we do lots of things year round that I personally don't agree with and many that cause major chillul Hashem. 

In regards to the money aspect- at the end of the day everyone will choose how to spend their money.  My problem with excessive spending is the peer pressure and the standards it seems to cause others the need to follow. And unfortunately people putting themselves in bad positions because of it.


But you're not going to stop people from spending their money.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sky121 on March 26, 2019, 09:14:03 AM
Jealousy isn't a pretty image. Do you also protest teens mingling at pizza shops on motzash?

The whole concept of worrying about what others spend is just so strange.

Someone in shul this past Shabbos was saying how nobody should spend more than $20 on all their shaluch manos combined as anything more than $20 should be allocated to better causes.

I said I spent $4 each (A box of P"Y Oreo thins and a small bottle of chocolate milk) on 50 that we gave out and don't regret that at all, in fact many people commented how nice it was to having something they weren't going to dump right into the trash while others commented how this was the first time in their life they had ever gotten to eat Oreos.

To which the person responded, but why not allocate the $180 towards tzedaka. I said what I gave to tzedaka is quite frankly none of your business, but I gave generously to many causes on Purim and that the number would be no different had I spent $20 or $200 on Shaluch manos. So why kvetch about what others spend on it?
I actually have no problem with people being reminded about what Purim is all about.  Everyone is free to spend what they want. But the reminding that giving Tzedaka is important and efforts should be put into that too just like mishloach manos is something I think we all could use. That being said, I would never presume to say that specifically to any individual directly assuming I know what that person gives or what he spent on his Mishloach Manos.  You don't know what people give. Or if people already cut back on their spending.



Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: username on March 26, 2019, 09:19:11 AM
Ok so have at it. Here are two of the paragraphs from the article. I bolded some of the problems. Feel free to address them.

 Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

 Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquorwhile the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.[/i]
These two issues have NOTHING to do with $250,000 parties. They can and unfortunately do happen even at poshute parties.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 09:47:53 AM
I beg to differ.

Here is a small part of the letter:

One party in the Ir Hatorah of Lakewood, a party that likely cost around $250,000 (including a full band, massive tent, multiple superstar singers, tons and tons of food, open bars) caused more damage than any possible good. Taaruvos galore, with boys and girls mingling all over the nearby streets.

At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor. Of course, the wonderful Baalei Batim of this Shul were writing checks while the 13 year old boys got hammered on as much liquor as they wanted.


Is there nothing intrinsically wrong with endangering kids so that Hatzolah needs to be called multiple times, boys and girls mingling, and little boys getting toasted on all types of hard liquor? I think there is a lot wrong.
I haven't seen anyone defend the party. Only the rabbonim who you are attacking for not having "banned" it. (I put that in quotes because anyone who uses the word banned in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what rabbonim do)

Your premise is that everything an individual does which is disapproved of should be met with a ban. That is the premise which apparently the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva disagree with you about.

A couple of questions for you.

1. were the amount of people needing the care of Hatzolah more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)
2. Was the amount of boys and girls mingling more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 09:59:03 AM
I haven't seen anyone defend the party. Only the rabbonim who you are attacking for not having "banned" it. (I put that in quotes because anyone who uses the word banned in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what rabbonim do)

Your premise is that everything an individual does which is disapproved of should be met with a ban. That is the premise which apparently the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva disagree with you about.

@Shkop Also, why does this issue only reflect poorly on the Roshei Yeshiva and the people making the party? How about the parents that are letting their kids go collecting unsupervised and obviously haven't taught them about drinking in moderation? Moreover, even if Roshei yeshivos/Rabbanim "banned" parties, would that really stop people?



A couple of questions for you.

1. were the amount of people needing the care of Hatzolah more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)
2. Was the amount of boys and girls mingling more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)

People use words like countless and numerous but there arent actual numbers to evaluate the issue.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: gingyguy on March 26, 2019, 10:26:13 AM
Only because people don't realize that they can go buy one today for $30K. Within a year or 2 at the most, everyone and their mother will have one.
definitely not my mother! ;D
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 10:29:29 AM
@Shkop  the Roshei Yeshiva and the people making the party?
Wait, there were Roshei Yeshiva making the party?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 10:30:45 AM
Wait, there were Roshei Yeshiva making the party?
Basically. Let's tar and feather them!
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 10:34:57 AM
Wait, there were Roshei Yeshiva making the party?

Lol. Rabbeim do make parties btw.
My point is that parents will blame Rabbeim/Roshei Yeshivos but wont look at themselves as part pf the problem
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yzj on March 26, 2019, 10:59:53 AM
Here is what is flawed with these letters and discussions that come up every so often:
There are always going to be people doing over the top things with their money. I think most of us want one thing; we want our kids growing up valuing what the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva do more than the decadent lifestyle of those living it up. The only way to do that is to stop hyperfocusing on the wealthy. I get nauseous when I hear people talking and every 3rd sentence has the word ďgvirĒ. Even if itís bashing them your kids will grow up knowing that you pay a lot more attention to ďthe gvirimĒ than to Rabbonim. Negative attention is also attention. You can be learning and even be mechaber seforim, but if your kids get the sense that you are not perfectly happy with your lifestyle and instead are focused on ďthe gevirĒ nothing you say to them will change that perception.  You are modeling for them with your behavior, and actions always speak louder than words.

If you want your kids growing up being machshiv torah and learning as a priority in life, talk about it constantly. Ignore the wealthy and their lifestyles. Your kids will learn to do the same. If you want to broaden their hasagos beyond learning talk about the neighbor who gives hours of his time to deliver for tomchei shabbos. The guy who volunteers to put away the seforim in shul.  The gemach down the block. The countless other baalei chessed that your kids can emulate without writing a six figure check. And you will be modeling for your kids what excites you. What you are machshiv. And most importantly, if you can show your kids that you are truly happy with the lifestyle you have youíre kids will want the same.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 11:04:16 AM
we want our kids growing up valuing what the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva do
"calling out" the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva for not "banning" something does not lead to this.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yzj on March 26, 2019, 11:05:36 AM
"calling out" the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva for not "banning" something does not lead to this.

Correct
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 11:23:45 AM
I haven't seen anyone defend the party. Only the rabbonim who you are attacking for not having "banned" it. (I put that in quotes because anyone who uses the word banned in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what rabbonim do)

Your premise is that everything an individual does which is disapproved of should be met with a ban. That is the premise which apparently the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva disagree with you about.

I never attacked rabbonim for not banning any parties.
There was no premise from me that everything someone does that is disapproved should be met with a ban.
It's amazing how you make things up.

But you do state clearly that anyone who uses the word "banned" in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what they do. Now you are speaking in very general terms. You seem to be saying that rabbonim can answer shaylos. They can help someone's shalom bayis. They can give a hechsher to a restaurant. But they can not get together and prohibit something (Definition of Ban is to officially or legally prohibit). Actually they can.

I think you have an intrinsic misunderstandig of what rabbonim are entitled to do. 




Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 11:40:23 AM
@Shkop Also, why does this issue only reflect poorly on the Roshei Yeshiva and the people making the party? How about the parents that are letting their kids go collecting unsupervised and obviously haven't taught them about drinking in moderation? Moreover, even if Roshei yeshivos/Rabbanim "banned" parties, would that really stop people?

I did not state that I agree with every single argument that letter makes (I actually do not).
What I did was agree strongly to the facts presented (obviously assuming those facts to be accurate).

For example, this is a presentation of fact on the part of the writer:
At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor

Now to another point. Is the writer correct in his assertion that The Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim should ban every one of these parties.
I never discussed that.

But now that I mention it, I am not convinced that such bans will be effective in such cases.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 11:47:44 AM
But you do state clearly that anyone who uses the word "banned" in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what they do. Now you are speaking in very general terms. You seem to be saying that rabbonim can answer shaylos. They can help someone's shalom bayis. They can give a hechsher to a restaurant. But they can not get together and prohibit something (Definition of Ban is to officially or legally prohibit). Actually they can.

I think you have an intrinsic misunderstandig of what rabbonim are entitled to do. 
LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 11:49:06 AM
I never attacked rabbonim for not banning any parties.
There was no premise from me that everything someone does that is disapproved should be met with a ban.
It's amazing how you make things up.

What other aspect of the letter did anyone dispute? I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: joey89 on March 26, 2019, 11:53:54 AM
Only because people don't realize that they can go buy one today for $30K. Within a year or 2 at the most, everyone and their mother will have one.
If they can ever figure out the production side
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 11:57:55 AM
I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.

I have yet to see that too. But I did see a lot of arguments that it is none of anyone's business if someone throws a 100k Purim party bash. Actually, it is everyone's business to get the word out that such parties that result in Hatzaloh having to be called in numerous times to haul out stone drunk kids and improper mingling of the sexes is wrong. I am not sure why this is such a difficult point to accept.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 11:58:52 AM
LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.

That may well be the case. It does not, however, mean you are correct in your assertion that rabbonim have no right to prohibit things.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: good sam on March 26, 2019, 12:00:42 PM
What other aspect of the letter did anyone dispute? I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.
Oh I'll go on record with that. The parties are a good thing.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 12:06:06 PM
I did not state that I agree with every single argument that letter makes (I actually do not).
What I did was agree strongly to the facts presented (obviously assuming those facts to be accurate).



The facts do seem a bit exaggerated but I digress. The fact that kids/teenagers are drinking too much on Purim and getting into trouble is not a new problem as its been happening for as long as I can remember. There are no facts to actually prove that the issue is more rampant now than before.

Alcohol is very accessible especially in the Frum world.  Its more of a societal issue than anything else. Blaming certain sects or individuals for a much bigger issue is not really fair.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 12:07:18 PM
LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.

What are the odds? lol
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: gingyguy on March 26, 2019, 12:13:10 PM
What are the odds? lol
paging @ChaimMoskowitz .. :D
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:15:09 PM
The facts do seem a bit exaggerated but I digress. The fact that kids/teenagers are drinking too much on Purim and getting into trouble is not a new problem as its been happening for as long as I can remember. There are no facts to actually prove that the issue is more rampant now than before.

Alcohol is very accessible especially in the Frum world.  Its more of a societal issue than anything else. Blaming certain sects or individuals for a much bigger issue is not really fair.

Fair general point but I disagree with your last assertion. The blame in the letter wasn't about the general issue of societal drinking. The blame was directed at individuals who create parties that result in such things.

In fact, the blame is even more appropriate in light of your valid point that such issues very much exist. Since we know that kids can seriously abuse alcohol (and mingle inappropriately) then we can blame people who use their money in ways that bring that about.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 12:27:56 PM
Fair general point but I disagree with your last assertion. The blame in the letter wasn't about the general issue of societal drinking. The blame was directed at individuals who create parties that result in such things.

In fact, the blame is even more appropriate in light of your valid point that such issues very much exist. Since we know that kids can seriously abuse alcohol (and mingle inappropriately) then we can blame people who use their money in ways that bring that about.

But its not about the parties per se. Everyone drinks on Purim and some parties just create a more fun and exciting setting for people to drink. Unless the general attitude towards alcohol changes, most the issues described in the article will not change. For example: Purim in Israel

Also, the idea of banning parties because there are parties that get out of control is ridiculous. Many people have very enjoyable parties/seudas with their friends and family that is fun and does not result in "countless" people in the hospital.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yzj on March 26, 2019, 12:31:42 PM
What are the odds? lol

Aygart has shimush from some of those Rabbonim whom shkop wants to enact a ban and has seen a thing or two about how they do or donít operate....

There are sugyos that actually deal with the Rabbonim banning certain practices and when the Rabbonim will not push a ban despite their dissaproval. There is a vast body of teshuvos that relate to this subject. And there is the fifth shulchan aruch that can only be acquired through substantial shimush chachamim. To suggest that the Rabbanim can simply ban anything that doesnít meet their approval and be effective is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamic of how the Rabbanim operate...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:37:06 PM
But its not about the parties per se. Everyone drinks on Purim and some parties just create a more fun and exciting setting for people to drink. Unless the general attitude towards alcohol changes, most the issues described in the article will not change. For example: Purim in Israel

Also, the idea of banning parties because there are parties that get out of control is ridiculous. Many people have very enjoyable parties/seudas with their friends and family that is fun and does not result in "countless" people in the hospital.

I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 12:39:12 PM
I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.
Which brings us to these 2 questions which you very conveniently erased when replying to this post.

A couple of questions for you.

1. were the amount of people needing the care of Hatzolah more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)
2. Was the amount of boys and girls mingling more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)

Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 12:44:16 PM
I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.

Incorrect. You dont make gezairos and bans based on specific instances as you are suggesting there should be. Those parties should be addressed individually by a local Rabbi or leader of community. If other parties are not experiencing these issues that is certainly relevant.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 12:47:25 PM
Aygart has shimush from some of those Rabbonim whom shkop wants to enact a ban and has seen a thing or two about how they do or donít operate....

Ok but what are the odds  :)

There are sugyos that actually deal with the Rabbonim banning certain practices and when the Rabbonim will not push a ban despite their dissaproval. There is a vast body of teshuvos that relate to this subject. And there is the fifth shulchan aruch that can only be acquired through substantial shimush chachamim. To suggest that the Rabbanim can simply ban anything that doesnít meet their approval and be effective is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamic of how the Rabbanim operate...

I wasnt arguing to the contrary
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:47:45 PM
I ignored them because I have no idea how to answer such bizarre questions. I don't keep a tally on what the rates of Hatzolah's involvement on Purim are from year to year nor the rates of boys and girls mingling on Purim from year to year. And the whole "adjusted for growth" is even weirder.

I was just commenting on facts presented in the letter according to the writer. I am not making calculations like an accountant would during an audit.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 12:51:26 PM
Incorrect. You dont make gezairos and bans based on specific instances as you are suggesting there should be. Those parties should be addressed individually by a local Rabbi or leader of community. If other parties are not experiencing these issues that is certainly relevant.

Amazing. Do you actually read the threads that you comment on or do you just blindly respond? I just finished saying that I don't think a ban would be effective. Let that sink in.

Great point. those parties should be addressed individually. I think that is spot on.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 12:59:42 PM
I ignored them because I have no idea how to answer such bizarre questions. I don't keep a tally on what the rates of Hatzolah's involvement on Purim are from year to year nor the rates of boys and girls mingling on Purim from year to year. And the whole "adjusted for growth" is even weirder.

I was just commenting on facts presented in the letter according to the writer. I am not making calculations like an accountant would during an audit.
THose questions are very relevant about whether or not these parties had any effect. If hatzolah responded to the same number of people who drank too much as any other year then these parties were nothing more than a change in location regarding that specific issue.

Adjusting for growth is because the extent of the general issue with Hatzolah can only be measured as a percentage of overall population. If the number of cases went up by 5% but the population grew by 10% then we did better than last year.

All said, I am not sure what you want anyone to do different than they already did. I don't think you really know either. It sounds to me like you are just enjoying complaining about the parties but are not advocating any specific action.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 01:00:20 PM
Great point. those parties should be addressed individually. I think that is spot on.
Maybe they are.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Yitzshpitz on March 26, 2019, 01:06:51 PM
Amazing. Do you actually read the threads that you comment on or do you just blindly respond? I just finished saying that I don't think a ban would be effective. Let that sink in.

Great point. those parties should be addressed individually. I think that is spot on.

So what exactly is your point- that crazy, out of control parties where people are doing the 3 aveiros chamuros are bad and inappropriate?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Naftuli19 on March 26, 2019, 01:14:25 PM
The fact that I probably never tried out a Tesla does not preclude me from stating an opinion.
 
Let's say you had two choices: A Camry or a Tesla. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the cost was pretty similar.

Granted there are good reasons to opt for Tesla over the Camry. One of them is performance. Another one is fun.

Do you honestly believe that image is not a factor in most cases?

Even Tesla would disagree with you.
im not sure if your see how many Tesla's are out, there but anyone with a open mind would understand that it has nothing to do with image i enjoy driving this car and happens to be your seeing it  doesn't give one a image im just doing what i njoy, and you prob do the same but happens to be people dont see it things that you enjoy
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Naftuli19 on March 26, 2019, 01:28:42 PM
If someone handed out millions of dollars in checks from his Rolls on Purim I wouldn't care about that either. I don't understand why you care so much about what other people spend their money on at all, it's non of your business. As Dan said, pick which part you actually care about and we can address it but you're just all over the place spewing nonsense.
+1000
Do u make a big fuss when they drop 200k on tzdukeh?!?! if not that dont make a fuss when they do it on a party etc...
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ExGingi on March 26, 2019, 02:06:25 PM
I'm not sure why anyone is assuming that people that sponsor Over The Top parties do it in order to show off or outdo anyone.

I can very well see that it is done out of benevolence. They know that not everyone will come to them for a donation, and might find this as a way to give to everyone, even those that don't come for a donation. They might not even go into the details of what's done, but rather employ a party planner, and then they might or might not get involved in approving or disapproving certain details. If anyone is trying to outdo or show off, it's usually only the party planners.

As someone posted upthread, it's a matter of personal choice and education as to whether to participate in these parties or not. Based on my personal background, I wouldn't be attracted one bit to any such party (big or small). I'd much rather be at a meaningful farbrengen (or at a party where I can take my young kids and they would enjoy).
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:18:26 PM
So what exactly is your point- that crazy, out of control parties where people are doing the 3 aveiros chamuros are bad and inappropriate?
That an open letter about it is appropriate to raise awareness rather than saying everyone should just mind their own business.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:20:03 PM
+1000
Do u make a big fuss when they drop 200k on tzdukeh?!?! if not that dont make a fuss when they do it on a party etc...
-1000

Dropping 200k on tzedaka - good thing.

Throwing a Purim party where Hatzalah needs to repeatedly haul off stone drunk kids - bad thing. 
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 02:25:20 PM
Let's ban cars because there are immature teenage drivers and people who use cars to drive to inappropriate places
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 02:26:51 PM
That an open letter about it is appropriate to raise awareness rather than saying everyone should just mind their own business.
What do you expect the open letter and awareness to accomplish?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 02:30:03 PM
Throwing a Purim party where Hatzalah needs to repeatedly haul off stone drunk kids - bad thing.
Do you honestly think that wouldn't happen without these parties and didn't happen before these parties were as big as they are?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:30:34 PM
Let's ban cars because there are immature teenage drivers and people who use cars to drive to inappropriate places

DUI is the issue, not general driving.
Similarly, problematic parties are the issue, not general parties with family and friends.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ExGingi on March 26, 2019, 02:31:05 PM
Do you honestly think that wouldn't happen without these parties and didn't happen before these parties were as big as they are?

Unfortunately happens all the time, with or without the lavish parties.

@Shkop may I suggest that you pause for a minute, rather than following the urge to argue your side, and try to write a coherent post arguing the other side. It might actually affect how you argue your own side.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
DUI is the issue, not general driving.
Similarly, problematic parties are the issue, not general parties with family and friends.
That is exactly the point. A wealthy person spending a lot on an extravagant party is not the issue at all.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:32:00 PM
What do you expect the open letter and awareness to accomplish?
More than keeping mum.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: stooges44 on March 26, 2019, 02:33:22 PM
Is that an attempt to get out of discussing the finer details of the argument?
I don't see why a discussion on what forms of spending are healthy is any dumber than a million discussions on this amazing forum.

Of all the million discussions why did you choose this one?

Just curios, you've been here a while and you're only speaking up now and on this particular subject.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 02:33:41 PM
It seems that shkop is finally maskim that the issue is the underage drinking and irresponsible teens/adults. That is unrelated to these parties per se, and is an issue that has been addressed already, although perhaps not enough, and was clearly not the underlying theme of the letter
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Naftuli19 on March 26, 2019, 02:33:46 PM
DUI is the issue, not general driving.
Similarly, problematic parties are the issue, not general parties with family and friends.
so problematic party's is ur issue not that rich people are making party's ???
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:34:18 PM
That is exactly the point. A wealthy person spending a lot on an extravagant party is not the issue at all.

Good point. But the article was not about wealthy people living lavishly. I bet you never read the letter, or have comprehension issues.
For example, it said this:
At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ExGingi on March 26, 2019, 02:34:43 PM
More than keeping mum.

But as @Dan so eloquently pointed out way upthread, when various issues are conflated, there's actually no message that comes across coherently. One needs to decide what the real issue is, and coherently focus on that. So the "more" that you are writing about is actually a case of "more is less".
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
so problematic party's is ur issue not that rich people are making party's ???
By the way, one of my issues is people jumping into conversations without reading the thread. You have no idea what my position is, but that does not stop you from arguing against it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:43:20 PM
Of all the million discussions why did you choose this one?

Just curios, you've been here a while and you're only speaking up now and on this particular subject.
Because I found it interesting. I took a position which I still stand by and am happy to defend it.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 26, 2019, 02:44:06 PM
This thread has dissolved into "he said, she said" and bickering about stupidities and for that reason, I'm out.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: stooges44 on March 26, 2019, 02:48:39 PM
This thread has dissolved into "he said, she said" and bickering about stupidities and for that reason, I'm out.

You sound like the guys on shark tank
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yitzgar on March 26, 2019, 02:48:56 PM
Good point. But the article was not about wealthy people living lavishly. I bet you never read the letter, or have comprehension issues.
For example, it said this:
At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor.
I read the article, and I don't think I have comprehension issues, thanks for your concern. The article gave a clear negative connotation towards the wealthy party makers for making parties and towards Rabbonim for not banning, not towards the drunken kids. It was as though the gvirim and rabbonim were at fault for irresponsible teenagers, which I think pretty much everyone on this thread doesn't agree with. i think these points have been made enough times on this thread, so I wish you luck with your campaign.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
This thread has dissolved into "he said, she said" and bickering about stupidities and for that reason, I'm out.
Sounds like Shark Tank. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 02:49:54 PM
More than keeping mum.

More of what?
I took a position which I still stand by and am happy to defend it.

I think half the issue is that you don't even know what you are trying to accomplish or how what you are advocating would accomplish anything.

Why would a Rov or Rosh Yeshiva or anyone write an open letter sure to embarrass someone when it has no clear and meaningful purpose? How would that even be mutar to be mivayesh someone birabim like that?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 03:01:34 PM
I read the article, and I don't think I have comprehension issues, thanks for your concern. The article gave a clear negative connotation towards the wealthy party makers for making parties and towards Rabbonim for not banning, not towards the drunken kids. It was as though the gvirim and rabbonim were at fault for irresponsible teenagers, which I think pretty much everyone on this thread doesn't agree with. i think these points have been made enough times on this thread, so I wish you luck with your campaign.
Actually, the article wasn't a clear negative connotation towards wealthy party makers in general. It pinpointed specific issues, like lavish over the top parties that result in Hatzaloh being called in, inappropriate mingling, smashing windows of homes, marijuana, and more. And yes, it was as though certain wealthy people are at fault for irresponsible teenagers assuming they are the ones creating the problem in the first place. 

I'm happy to continue arguing my position as long as you present yours.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 03:10:24 PM
More of what?I think half the issue is that you don't even know what you are trying to accomplish or how what you are advocating would accomplish anything.

Why would a Rov or Rosh Yeshiva or anyone write an open letter sure to embarrass someone when it has no clear and meaningful purpose? How would that even be mutar to be mivayesh someone birabim like that?

I am not trying to accomplish anything. I am just presenting my view.

Your second question is a new one. It's interesting that you point it out here because this forum is full of people bringing up issues of all kinds, as do many periodicals and websites. It's a general question that applies to thousands of letters and articles and blog pieces. I bet that some of them are assur and some aren't.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: aygart on March 26, 2019, 03:32:16 PM
I am not trying to accomplish anything. I am just presenting my view.

Your second question is a new one. It's interesting that you point it out here because this forum is full of people bringing up issues of all kinds, as do many periodicals and websites. It's a general question that applies to thousands of letters and articles and blog pieces. I bet that some of them are assur and some aren't.
I would expect rabbonim to care about that before writing an open letter.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: Shkop on March 26, 2019, 03:42:13 PM
I would expect rabbonim to care about that before writing an open letter.

Where did you get that rabbonim wrote that open letter? Maybe it was by a non-rabbinic individual.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: doodle on March 26, 2019, 03:58:32 PM
What do you expect the open letter and awareness to accomplish?
Is this the standard you use ??
 Is this the standard most Rabbinical letters are held to ??
This is a way more important issue than most of the nonsense people get inundated with
On a daily basis .
You know this as well ! What is your agenda?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sguitarist18 on March 26, 2019, 03:58:58 PM
One more point - the letter/article does not deign to mention any names or actually call anyone out, but it wants OTHER people do so.

#hypocrite?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: doodle on March 26, 2019, 04:00:52 PM
One more point - the letter/article does not deign to mention any names or actually call anyone out, but it wants OTHER people do so.

#hypocrite?
No it does not . Read it slowly and carefully.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2019, 04:27:13 PM
One more point - the letter/article does not deign to mention any names or actually call anyone out, but it wants OTHER people do so.

#hypocrite?
He does call out Rabbis
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sguitarist18 on March 26, 2019, 04:32:43 PM
No it does not . Read it slowly and carefully.

I did. Here are some sample quotes:

Quote
and not a word from the Rabbonim...The Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim should ban every one of these parties.

Translation: I'm not going to actually call anyone out, that seems a bit risky for my own taste, I'm going to write an anonymous letter. But I would like all rabbanim to take a public stance against all the things I think are wrong with the world.

An added note - he's basically disrespecting all daas torah, despite the fact that there may be many rabbanim who do make statements to their kehillah about what they should or should not be doing. But because it's not loud enough for this letter-writer, he saying that "all rabbanim" (a heterogeneous group, as we all know) are culpable.

He does call out Rabbis

LOL. How about calling out specific people making parties that horrify him so?
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: doodle on March 26, 2019, 04:43:17 PM
I did. Here are some sample quotes:

Translation: I'm not going to actually call anyone out, that seems a bit risky for my own taste, I'm going to write an anonymous letter. But I would like all rabbanim to take a public stance against all the things I think are wrong with the world.

An added note - he's basically disrespecting all daas torah, despite the fact that there may be many rabbanim who do make statements to their kehillah about what they should or should not be doing. But because it's not loud enough for this letter-writer, he saying that "all rabbanim" (a heterogeneous group, as we all know) are culpable.

LOL. How about calling out specific people making parties that horrify him so?
He is asking the Rabbonim to get involved.
Thatís the right way to do it . Why are you bashing the Shliach/messenger??
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: gingyguy on March 26, 2019, 05:16:17 PM
He is asking the Rabbonim to get involved.
Thatís the right way to do it . Why are you bashing the Shliach/messenger??
seems like you're confused on the methodology of asking a Rav to get involved. You seem to think that writing an anonymous letter on a website is the way to do it, as opposed to speaking to said Rav  in person..
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: yzj on March 26, 2019, 05:51:57 PM
This is evolving into one of the most pointless threads Iíve seen in a while- even for JS
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: doodle on March 26, 2019, 05:55:41 PM
seems like you're confused on the methodology of asking a Rav to get involved. You seem to think that writing an anonymous letter on a website is the way to do it, as opposed to speaking to said Rav  in person..
Thatís terribly naive . I would assume you have limited experience in this area .
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sguitarist18 on March 26, 2019, 06:55:38 PM
My point is that he's asking "rabbanim" to do something he himself is not willing to do - actually call people out by name.

Ergo, #hypocrite.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: doodle on March 26, 2019, 07:50:58 PM
My point is that he's asking "rabbanim" to do something he himself is not willing to do - actually call people out by name.

Ergo, #hypocrite.
He, as a layman can not call people out by name . He technically can , but than will have to deal with all the holier than thou types shouting Lashon Hora !
So He correctly turns to Our Rabbonim to deal with this . Since He has past experience , He knows nothing will happen unless he makes ď big issue ď out of it .
Look how many pages this has created ! How many comments on the original website!
Hopefully our Leaders will now speak up and deal with the issue .
Is this the nicest way to deal with the issue ? No
But this is what works !
Use common sense or ask people with experience before you whine about this method.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: sguitarist18 on March 26, 2019, 08:59:37 PM
Whoever calls people out by name will have to deal with the fallout - which is why he doesn't want to do it, even in an anonymous letter.

BTW, I'd point out that if it's genuinely an issue of pikuach nefashos, with "countless" young boys being taken to the hospital, then the letter writer should have called the cops.

But you seem to feel that my responses are validating the letter writer, and for that reason, I'm out.
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: zh cohen on March 26, 2019, 10:01:26 PM
Ok but what are the odds  :)

31.9%

HT: @TimT
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: ADG on March 27, 2019, 10:54:19 AM
@Dan I am shocked that you let him bait you- what happened to not warranting a response?

Not to mention that your discussion and every other comment (stopped reading at page 9) has been about condoning or deflecting the main topic, responsibility of the community to stand up for what is not acceptable. Its not about money, image, flamboyant behavior, tzedaka, rabbonim, rich people poor people, kavod, tayvos. Its about what is appropriate and what isn't, and the community's responsibility and obligation to condemn that which deserves condemnation, in face of the shaming from people who say "how dare you speak, until you gave, until you made money. How dare you tell people how to live ect. ect. How dare you attempt to control something outside of yourself ect. ect. (see previous pages for the well articulated horse extrements)
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: jye on March 30, 2019, 09:01:59 PM
There's definitely a certain image that having a Tesla portrays to the public, regardless of the price. That doesn't mean that image had anything to do with anyone's reasons for purchasing their car though.

I walked out of shul in Lakewood to use the bathroom towards the end of mussaf today and there were a bunch of upper 20s- lower 30ís age working guys in the hall talking about teslas- range, battery performance etc. I can tell you that if someone would have brought up a Camry in that conversation it would not have gone well....

If having a Tesla is not a status symbal, being conversant in all things Tesla definitely is....
Title: Re: Over The Top Purim Parties
Post by: mmgfarb on March 30, 2019, 09:25:49 PM

If having a Tesla is not a status symbal, being conversant in all things Tesla definitely is....
Lol