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Title: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 02, 2019, 11:57:02 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on April 03, 2019, 03:00:17 PM
please let's not fool ourselves that there's anything religious or spiritual in it.

just enjoy the trip
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: yzj on April 03, 2019, 03:25:46 PM
Do you really want to experience what for some is a life changing event and not necessarily in a positive sense?


“Many users describe profound, life-changing experiences such as visiting other worlds, talking with alien entities known as "DMT elves" or "machine elves," and total shifts in the perception of identity and reality.”

“Rabbi” Zalman Schachter-Shalomi was originally highly regarded by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Partially as a result of his experience with LSD he went completely off the deep end. He was the originator of the rainbow tallit and he preached that if you enjoy gardening on shabbos it’s a mitzvah. He ended up running off with a Goya and was accused of some sordid stuff in the guise of his new religion.

In his own words:

“The most serious challenges to Judaism posed by modern thought and experience are to me game theory and psychedelic experience. Once I realize the game structure of my commitments, once I see how all my theologizing is just an elaborate death struggle between my soul and the God within her, or when I can undergo the deepest cosmic experience via some minuscule quantity of organic alkaloids or LSD, then the whole validity of my ontological assertions is in doubt. But game theory works the other way too. God too is playing a game of hide-and-seek with himself and me. The psychedelic experience can be not only a challenge, but also a support of my faith. After seeing what really happens at the point where all is one and where God-immanent surprises God-transcendent and they merge in cosmic laughter, I can also see Judaism in a new and amazing light.”

Reflecting on his first acid trip many years later, Schachter said:


“I realized that all forms of religion are masks that the divine wears to communicate with us. Behind all religions there’s a reality, and this reality wears whatever clothes it needs to speak to a particular people.”

The hallucinogenic experiences are not innocuous. They can permanently alter one’s perception of reality.

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: ADG on April 03, 2019, 03:55:27 PM
Do you recognize that Pot, Hashish ect is in fact assur (referring to the famous R' Moshe F psak)? Do you recognize LSD is Assur? If so why should this be any different? If not you are clearly already off the deep-end.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Lou Bob on April 03, 2019, 06:37:50 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
DDF and Google are not your
A: Doctor
B: Rabbi
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 03, 2019, 07:08:16 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: doodle on April 03, 2019, 08:25:37 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gingyguy on April 03, 2019, 08:53:10 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
this is possibly the first post you made that I agree with! Maxes tic!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:57:23 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
First of all, ask your LOR for halachic advice, not an anonymous internet forum.
Second of all, at least spell the drug correctly.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:58:12 PM
Do you really want to experience what for some is a life changing event and not necessarily in a positive sense?


“Many users describe profound, life-changing experiences such as visiting other worlds, talking with alien entities known as "DMT elves" or "machine elves," and total shifts in the perception of identity and reality.”

“Rabbi” Zalman Schachter-Shalomi was originally highly regarded by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Partially as a result of his experience with LSD he went completely off the deep end. He was the originator of the rainbow tallit and he preached that if you enjoy gardening on shabbos it’s a mitzvah. He ended up running off with a Goya and was accused of some sordid stuff in the guise of his new religion.

In his own words:

“The most serious challenges to Judaism posed by modern thought and experience are to me game theory and psychedelic experience. Once I realize the game structure of my commitments, once I see how all my theologizing is just an elaborate death struggle between my soul and the God within her, or when I can undergo the deepest cosmic experience via some minuscule quantity of organic alkaloids or LSD, then the whole validity of my ontological assertions is in doubt. But game theory works the other way too. God too is playing a game of hide-and-seek with himself and me. The psychedelic experience can be not only a challenge, but also a support of my faith. After seeing what really happens at the point where all is one and where God-immanent surprises God-transcendent and they merge in cosmic laughter, I can also see Judaism in a new and amazing light.”

Reflecting on his first acid trip many years later, Schachter said:


“I realized that all forms of religion are masks that the divine wears to communicate with us. Behind all religions there’s a reality, and this reality wears whatever clothes it needs to speak to a particular people.”

The hallucinogenic experiences are not innocuous. They can permanently alter one’s perception of reality.
One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:58:27 PM
Do you recognize that Pot, Hashish ect is in fact assur (referring to the famous R' Moshe F psak)?
Not so pashut, read the tshuva.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
If you're going to do it, just do it, don't make believe that there is anything inherently spiritual or kabbalistic about it. If you were holding on a certain level and felt it was a tool to be used to gain something then maybe but you're not there so don't kid yourself.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:02:23 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
You're just being dismissive and putting him down, that accomplishes nothing and just makes you look like a fool. If you have something intelligent to say then say it, if not then kindly take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:02:34 PM

+1
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: good sam on April 03, 2019, 09:14:01 PM
DDF and Google are not your
A: Doctor
B: Rabbi
WebMD and Stack Exchange on under the other hand
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2019, 09:26:06 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
Tell me more about the kabbalists who used drugs?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: joey89 on April 03, 2019, 09:31:00 PM
Should I Take LSD to Attain Spiritual Heights?
By the Grace of G‑d,
20th of Marcheshvan, 5725
[Oct. 26, 1964]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Greeting and Blessings:

I am in receipt of your letter of October 18th, which you write in the name of your friends and in your own behalf, and ask my opinion regarding the new drug called L.S.D., which is said to have the property of mental stimulation, etc.

Biochemistry is not my field, and I cannot express an opinion on the drug you mention, especially as it is still new. However what I can say is that the claim that the said drug can stimulate mystical insight, etc., is not the proper way to attain mystical inspiration, even if it had such a property. The Jewish way is to go from strength to strength, not by means of drugs and other artificial stimulants, which have a place only if they are necessary for the physical health, in accordance with the Mitzva to take care of one’s health. I hope that everyone will agree that before any drugs are taken one should first utilize all one’s natural capacities, and when this is done truly and fully, I do not think there will be a need to look for artificial stimulants.

I trust that you and your group, in view of your Yeshiva background, have regular appointed times for the study of Torah, and the inner aspects of the Torah, namely the teachings of Chassidus, and that such study is in accordance with the principle of our Sages, namely “The essential thing is the deed,” i.e., the actual conduct of the daily life in accordance with the Torah and Mitzvoth, prayer, Teflllin, Kashruth, etc., etc. This is only a matter of will and determination, for nothing stands in the way of the will. I trust that you are also using your good influence throughout your environment.

With blessing,

Link: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/3190865/jewish/Should-I-Take-LSD-to-Attain-Spiritual-Heights.htm
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: joey89 on April 03, 2019, 09:35:30 PM
The Problem With Drugs
By Adin Even-Israel (Steinsaltz)July 4, 2010 6:56 PM
I once heard from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of righteous memory, in a private audience, an observation about drugs.

He was speaking about the effect on a person taking drugs. He was, incidentally, very careful about not saying anything negative about anybody. He said that the opinion of the Torah in general is that the person should be the master over his or her self, and enslavement of any sort is wrong.

Can a person still be the master over himself when involved with drugs and other addictive substances?

The problem with using any kinds of drugs or almost anything that has a little bit of psychoactive material is the same. Indeed, almost everything is psychoactive, including bread. If one fasts and then takes a piece of bread, it is possible to see how many changes are made in one's psyche.

The specific problem, however, with drugs is that people come relatively fast to a point of no return. In truth there is never a point of no return; but one quickly reaches a point from where it is very hard, almost impossible, to return...

Link: https://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/1171699/jewish/The-Problem-With-Drugs.htm
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Denverite on April 03, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
Should I Take LSD to Attain Spiritual Heights?
By the Grace of G‑d,
20th of Marcheshvan, 5725
[Oct. 26, 1964]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Greeting and Blessings:

I am in receipt of your letter of October 18th, which you write in the name of your friends and in your own behalf, and ask my opinion regarding the new drug called L.S.D., which is said to have the property of mental stimulation, etc.

Biochemistry is not my field, and I cannot express an opinion on the drug you mention, especially as it is still new. However what I can say is that the claim that the said drug can stimulate mystical insight, etc., is not the proper way to attain mystical inspiration, even if it had such a property. The Jewish way is to go from strength to strength, not by means of drugs and other artificial stimulants, which have a place only if they are necessary for the physical health, in accordance with the Mitzva to take care of one’s health. I hope that everyone will agree that before any drugs are taken one should first utilize all one’s natural capacities, and when this is done truly and fully, I do not think there will be a need to look for artificial stimulants.

I trust that you and your group, in view of your Yeshiva background, have regular appointed times for the study of Torah, and the inner aspects of the Torah, namely the teachings of Chassidus, and that such study is in accordance with the principle of our Sages, namely “The essential thing is the deed,” i.e., the actual conduct of the daily life in accordance with the Torah and Mitzvoth, prayer, Teflllin, Kashruth, etc., etc. This is only a matter of will and determination, for nothing stands in the way of the will. I trust that you are also using your good influence throughout your environment.

With blessing,

Link: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/3190865/jewish/Should-I-Take-LSD-to-Attain-Spiritual-Heights.htm

Wow, as usual, beautiful and timeless wisdom.



One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.

I totally agree with you. I think though that @yzj was more trying to tell the OP to have a true and honest reckoning with himself (this seems like a guy asking) :) about the both the upsides along with possibly profound and permanent downsides?



@Philosophypsychologypsych I totally agree with others that you must ask an actual Sheila to someone who knows you well. Since you did ask here and since it is anonymous, can I ask how old you are? A fifty-year old solidly established family man, who studies Torah, experiencing something like this would be very different than a 25 year old single guy seeking his place in the world. I don’t understand the appeal of drugs and alcohol but since I live in Colorado, I know way more than I want about Marijuana. It seems that each day they are discovering more about how detrimental it is to use it before the age of 26 and that it literally arrests your brain development irreversibly, for life. Did these tribes that used this drug have strict taboos that only allowed its use amongst their elders (like we have taboos about learning Kabbalah outside of certain contexts)? Did they have other taboos around it that you may also not know about?

Just some other things to maybe think about...
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: yzj on April 03, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.

I didn’t say that made it assur. I simply pointed out that as fascinated as OP is by the idea, it’s known to cause altered perceptions of reality that is sometimes a permanent life changing experience.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306889.php
 
To give an idea of how radically it can permanently change one’s perception of reality I cited Shachter-Shalomi and his LSD and acid trips,
which took him from being one of the rebbes closest and most valued shluchim to the guy who took the renewal movement perhaps lower than reform judaism. The fact that DMT is known to do this ought to give any thinking person pause before going on that journey....
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: 12HRS on April 03, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Must be on something already because its not friday
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 11:04:20 PM
Must be on something already because its not friday
Lol
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 04, 2019, 01:25:46 AM
The people that keep comparing LSD to DMT simply dont even know what DMT is but feel super confident about their responses...
Let me explain a few pivotal diffrences, when a person takes DMT they are totally unconcious and appear to be in a sleep like state, when they wake up its effects are gone, nobody walking around like lunatics on DMT the way LSD used.
DMT is not addictive (Physically or pyschologically) or habit forming, studies taken from people that use it found no results of negative side effects, but most users found an increase positive effect in their search for self actualization.
DMT is NOT like acid that gives many people permanent altered perceptions of reality, but rather is only said to sometimes cause issues in users who previously suffered from mental illness but has not been found AT ALL to cause it in the first place.
Synesthesia is something you can experience on DMT which is super fascinating, and being that all negative effects of LSD are eliminated with DMT I thought it maybe worth considering, as someone who does not use drugs and never has used drugs.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: bb1836 on April 04, 2019, 10:59:14 AM
Once we're on the subject, this conversation happened yesterday (I wonder if the OP had listened to this and that's where he got the idea for this thread).....viewer discretion advised....skip to minute 33:43

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on April 04, 2019, 02:17:39 PM
Has anyone here read the book Cannabis Chassidis? Written by an acquaintance of mine... He discusses some relevant topics.

https://www.amazon.com/Cannabis-Chassidis-Ancient-Emerging-Torah/dp/157027262X
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 30, 2019, 02:55:52 PM
Wow, as usual, beautiful and timeless wisdom.



I totally agree with you. I think though that @yzj was more trying to tell the OP to have a true and honest reckoning with himself (this seems like a guy asking) :) about the both the upsides along with possibly profound and permanent downsides?



@Philosophypsychologypsych I totally agree with others that you must ask an actual Sheila to someone who knows you well. Since you did ask here and since it is anonymous, can I ask how old you are? A fifty-year old solidly established family man, who studies Torah, experiencing something like this would be very different than a 25 year old single guy seeking his place in the world. I don’t understand the appeal of drugs and alcohol but since I live in Colorado, I know way more than I want about Marijuana. It seems that each day they are discovering more about how detrimental it is to use it before the age of 26 and that it literally arrests your brain development irreversibly, for life. Did these tribes that used this drug have strict taboos that only allowed its use amongst their elders (like we have taboos about learning Kabbalah outside of certain contexts)? Did they have other taboos around it that you may also not know about?

Just some other things to maybe think about...

I believe that the general taboo against Kabbalah these days is one of the most misunderstood, people dont know the backround of when that taboo was initiated and the SPECIFICS of what parts of kabbalah it was in regards too and is simply detrimental and has almost literally caused an important and fundamental part of our holy torah to be forgotten almost in entirety.
The Chesed L`Avraham writes, that these days it is not only Muter but it`s a Mitzvah for EVERYONE young and old to be learn these Inyanim as much as possible, and he then says and i dont take this lightly "And it is in the zchus of learning this subject that will ultimately bring moshiach, and not in ANY OTHER" (his lashon, Vlo Bzchus Acher!!).
In case you are unfamiliar, the Chesed l`avraham is not a random safer, he was was very much revered by all the gedolim of his time, and was the Great-Grandfather of the Chidah.

People hear the word Kabbalah and immediately cringe, picturing names of malachim and the making of a golem, thats like someone hearing the word judaism and responding "Oh thats the thing with the long sidelocks?" from that comment you realize the misconception the person holds, I might be exaggerating a bit, but not by much.
I could go on and on, but I wont, but the mere fact that if someone today (And I mean a Yeshivah Boy like me, more or less ) starts learning the subjects and has deep fundamental questions
it is almost impossible to find any semi mainstream talmid chacham that is qualified to answer such questions, (and im saying this after seeaaarrchhing, more or less anyone in NY,NJ) and yes I listen to R` Efraim goldstein, and R` michel handler and all the current online accessible shiurim in these inyanim, and the only people well versed enough in these subjects are R"L either irreligious or at the very most modern orthodox professors teaching in the Universitys around the US, such has been my experience, and I think its a tremendous Chillul Hashem.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on December 30, 2019, 10:44:45 PM
I believe that the general taboo against Kabbalah these days is one of the most misunderstood, people dont know the backround of when that taboo was initiated and the SPECIFICS of what parts of kabbalah it was in regards too and is simply detrimental and has almost literally caused an important and fundamental part of our holy torah to be forgotten almost in entirety.
The Chesed L`Avraham writes, that these days it is not only Muter but it`s a Mitzvah for EVERYONE young and old to be learn these Inyanim as much as possible, and he then says and i dont take this lightly "And it is in the zchus of learning this subject that will ultimately bring moshiach, and not in ANY OTHER" (his lashon, Vlo Bzchus Acher!!).
In case you are unfamiliar, the Chesed l`avraham is not a random safer, he was was very much revered by all the gedolim of his time, and was the Great-Grandfather of the Chidah.

People hear the word Kabbalah and immediately cringe, picturing names of malachim and the making of a golem, thats like someone hearing the word judaism and responding "Oh thats the thing with the long sidelocks?" from that comment you realize the misconception the person holds, I might be exaggerating a bit, but not by much.
I could go on and on, but I wont, but the mere fact that if someone today (And I mean a Yeshivah Boy like me, more or less ) starts learning the subjects and has deep fundamental questions
it is almost impossible to find any semi mainstream talmid chacham that is qualified to answer such questions, (and im saying this after seeaaarrchhing, more or less anyone in NY,NJ) and yes I listen to R` Efraim goldstein, and R` michel handler and all the current online accessible shiurim in these inyanim, and the only people well versed enough in these subjects are R"L either irreligious or at the very most modern orthodox professors teaching in the Universitys around the US, such has been my experience, and I think its a tremendous Chillul Hashem.

I just jumped into this conversation now, but I definitely think you're making some good points. The taboo is definitely misunderstood, and study of kaballah is largely ignored by most Jews.

If you're writing this, you probably read it already, but if you haven't, definitely read aryeh kaplan's Jewish Meditation, and then Meditation and the Bible. (I personally haven't read the third one, but you can give it a try if you're committed to this.) It's a shame he's not around anymore, but there are definitely contemporaries who can help you with Kabbalah. I read one of Rabbi Dov Ber Pinson's books and it was amazing (even though I'm not chabad).

(As for trying DMT, I definitely wouldn't look at it as a religious experience, but certainly a discovery experience, possibly spiritual.
It definitely sounds exciting, perhaps scary, and definitely crazy. Seems like most of the people here are staunchly against it, but I'm sure that we're all curious to hear your experiences if you do try it. That'll make for some TR.)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on December 31, 2019, 12:16:05 AM
I believe that the general taboo against Kabbalah these days is one of the most misunderstood, people dont know the backround of when that taboo was initiated and the SPECIFICS of what parts of kabbalah it was in regards too and is simply detrimental and has almost literally caused an important and fundamental part of our holy torah to be forgotten almost in entirety.
The Chesed L`Avraham writes, that these days it is not only Muter but it`s a Mitzvah for EVERYONE young and old to be learn these Inyanim as much as possible, and he then says and i dont take this lightly "And it is in the zchus of learning this subject that will ultimately bring moshiach, and not in ANY OTHER" (his lashon, Vlo Bzchus Acher!!).
In case you are unfamiliar, the Chesed l`avraham is not a random safer, he was was very much revered by all the gedolim of his time, and was the Great-Grandfather of the Chidah.

People hear the word Kabbalah and immediately cringe, picturing names of malachim and the making of a golem, thats like someone hearing the word judaism and responding "Oh thats the thing with the long sidelocks?" from that comment you realize the misconception the person holds, I might be exaggerating a bit, but not by much.
I could go on and on, but I wont, but the mere fact that if someone today (And I mean a Yeshivah Boy like me, more or less ) starts learning the subjects and has deep fundamental questions
it is almost impossible to find any semi mainstream talmid chacham that is qualified to answer such questions, (and im saying this after seeaaarrchhing, more or less anyone in NY,NJ) and yes I listen to R` Efraim goldstein, and R` michel handler and all the current online accessible shiurim in these inyanim, and the only people well versed enough in these subjects are R"L either irreligious or at the very most modern orthodox professors teaching in the Universitys around the US, such has been my experience, and I think its a tremendous Chillul Hashem.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what kabala actually is, what the point of it is, and who is actually "supposed to learn it."
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on December 31, 2019, 07:40:19 AM
(As for trying DMT, I definitely wouldn't look at it as a religious experience, but certainly a discovery experience, possibly spiritual.
It definitely sounds exciting, perhaps scary, and definitely crazy. Seems like most of the people here are staunchly against it, but I'm sure that we're all curious to hear your experiences if you do try it. That'll make for some TR.)

I spent some time in the Amazon Jungle last year and was seriously considering writing a TR but I feel a big part of the audience here is not 'conscious' enough to hear me out.

As a side note, I met a (semi famous) Native Indian Chief who told me that he led a peyote ceremony for a 'group of rabbis' from LA...
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on December 31, 2019, 09:15:41 AM
I spent some time in the Amazon Jungle last year and was seriously considering writing a TR

Wow! That's something I'd really want to read
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 31, 2019, 10:54:48 AM
I just jumped into this conversation now, but I definitely think you're making some good points. The taboo is definitely misunderstood, and study of kaballah is largely ignored by most Jews.

If you're writing this, you probably read it already, but if you haven't, definitely read aryeh kaplan's Jewish Meditation, and then Meditation and the Bible. (I personally haven't read the third one, but you can give it a try if you're committed to this.) It's a shame he's not around anymore, but there are definitely contemporaries who can help you with Kabbalah. I read one of Rabbi Dov Ber Pinson's books and it was amazing (even though I'm not chabad).

(As for trying DMT, I definitely wouldn't look at it as a religious experience, but certainly a discovery experience, possibly spiritual.
It definitely sounds exciting, perhaps scary, and definitely crazy. Seems like most of the people here are staunchly against it, but I'm sure that we're all curious to hear your experiences if you do try it. That'll make for some TR.)

I have bought every one of Aryeh Kaplans stuff, including the practical guide to jewish meditation, and Meditation and kabbalah, and inner Space, he was truly a genius with a remarkable talent.
BTW, most people dont know but Aryeh kaplan wrote only 1 short safer/kuntrus in HEBREW on Kabbalah/machshavah on primarily tzimtzum and and the Yediah/Bechirah paradox every other one of his 50+ books are english, this hasnt been in print or in circulation for over 20 years, have never seen the actual safer anywhere, but I obtained a pdf file and went through it, it`s called Moreh Ohr, if anyones intrested lmk I can share the file.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 31, 2019, 11:11:45 AM
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what kabala actually is, what the point of it is, and who is actually "supposed to learn it."

Well I`m more then happy to debate it with you, although my views are in line with all the mainsteam shitos (rather then say for example, the abraham abulafian views) as I have spent a significant amount of time studying it, and I doubt you can say the same, but dont believe you know what my views are in the first place, so lets hear what my never stated views are, in regards to what kabala is, and what the point of it is, then lets see why its wrong and then please enlighten us with the/your truth?

BTW in case your intrested to hear in just a few words what the point of kabala is, the answer is the same as the other parts of torah in the sense that you can be like chasidim who would channel the kabbalah directly into how it relates to their avodas hashem, theres the ramchal that its a way of understanding hashems hanhagah of the briyah, you can use it to understand the real meaning of tfillah as im sure you know the entire davening and pesukei dzimrah was composed based on kabbalistic ideas, (Pesukei dzimra is all just about cutting out the klipos to pave a path for your actual tfilah to ascend undeterred etc..) their is no one point to any other part of torah either. Hafuch va Vhafuch va Dkulah Buh! right??
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on December 31, 2019, 03:44:50 PM
I have bought every one of Aryeh Kaplans stuff, including the practical guide to jewish meditation, and Meditation and kabbalah, and inner Space, he was truly a genius with a remarkable talent.
BTW, most people dont know but Aryeh kaplan wrote only 1 short safer/kuntrus in HEBREW on Kabbalah/machshavah on primarily tzimtzum and and the Yediah/Bechirah paradox every other one of his 50+ books are english, this hasnt been in print or in circulation for over 20 years, have never seen the actual safer anywhere, but I obtained a pdf file and went through it, it`s called Moreh Ohr, if anyones intrested lmk I can share the file.

Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: chief_mag on December 31, 2019, 04:26:08 PM
Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.


+1
There's a response from the Lubavitcher Rebbe regarding a similar question, not pro the concept of using external influences to further the study of Kaballa & chassidus. I can't find it right now, so I won't (mis)quote it.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 31, 2019, 07:32:32 PM
Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.

I have it's sitting on the table near my bed, I've read every one of his books more then just once, and don't get me wrong I'm not looking for other spiritualities whatsoever, I'm fully grounded in my yiddishkeit completely, spiritually and philosophically, I'm not actively persuing anything outside yiddishkeit, just meditation which obviously we are both aware is a very Jewish concept as portrayed so clearly by Aryeh Kaplan.
BUT I would be lying if I told you at the end of the day the idea to ACTUALLY have a transcdental experience not a acid trip but a ligit out of body experience the likes of which ppl who almost die attest too (which can be induced at DMT clinic) is still something that excites and boggles my mind to no end, and although it's not practical I keep thinking to myself that one day when I pass through a country that happens to have such clinics, I aught to try for myself just once!
Maybe you've reached the advanced levels of meditation and can reach a transcdental state on your own, if, so lucky you!
But I have not mastered that yet, and until then, this idea of having a real life truly non-physical and unexplainable purely spiritual experience is something I envy!
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 31, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
+1
There's a response from the Lubavitcher Rebbe regarding a similar question, not pro the concept of using external influences to further the study of Kaballa & chassidus. I can't find it right now, so I won't (mis)quote it.

I agree. And the original post about wanting to try DMT to have such an experience once, was a long time ago, now I was just discussing the study of kabbla but not that I believe the study of Kabbalah should be along with these foreign influences at all, I agree with what your saying 100% and the quote from the lubavitcher rabbi might have been mentioned quoted actually way back when this article was posted, a comment on the first page or two I believe.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on December 31, 2019, 07:55:05 PM
Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.

U deff seem to have researched and studied meditation perhaps still practicing as well, I'd love to hear more honestly... :)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: chief_mag on December 31, 2019, 08:26:14 PM


I agree with what your saying 100% and the quote from the lubavitcher rabbi might have been mentioned quoted actually way back when this article was posted, a comment on the first page or two I believe.

See them now.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on December 31, 2019, 10:27:23 PM
U deff seem to have researched and studied meditation perhaps still practicing as well, I'd love to hear more honestly... :)

I think you probably read more aryeh Kaplan books and about Kabbalah in general. Personally, I feel like most of Kabbalah is well over my head. I do appreciate what I understand and I'm very into meditation, mindfulness, and visualization.

That being said, Rabbi Kaplans books Jewish Meditation and Meditation and the Bible we're game changers for me.
On the practical side, I guess what originally piqued my interest was The Possible You (a seminar by Rabbi Yom Tov Glaser, pricey) which introduced me to breathing methods.
I later had a "mussar Seder" reading visions of a compassionate world. I never really got to be more than a beginner, but it was quite amazing. Im still interested in alternative methods, but anything drug-induced is honestly scary to me. (As a side note I found Ram Dass's story of a therapist who experimented with LSD to be fascinating.)

For now, when I am not in a rush, I use parts of tefillah as a meditative practice, and it makes my davening especially meaningful. I actually have entire notebooks of new pshatim in pesukim and tefillah just from these practices.
I stress tefillah to anyone who is interested in these types of things. (Hence the recommendation to reread rabbi Kaplans Jewish Meditation.) Some of my best tefillos were byechidus because I really had a chance to experience it, something that is kinda hard with a regular quick-ish minyan. (I spoke with rabbanim about davening byechidus for this purpose and got some really interesting perspectives.) For now, this is where my experiences are, although I wish I could do more. This thread inspired me to crack open Jewish Meditation again, so who knows :)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on December 31, 2019, 10:28:44 PM
Oh, and my good friend is a mindfulness expert and a very open minded and thought out Jew, so I consult with him for any questions I have
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2020, 09:13:46 AM
I have it's sitting on the table near my bed, I've read every one of his books more then just once, and don't get me wrong I'm not looking for other spiritualities whatsoever, I'm fully grounded in my yiddishkeit completely, spiritually and philosophically, I'm not actively persuing anything outside yiddishkeit, just meditation which obviously we are both aware is a very Jewish concept as portrayed so clearly by Aryeh Kaplan.
BUT I would be lying if I told you at the end of the day the idea to ACTUALLY have a transcdental experience not a acid trip but a ligit out of body experience the likes of which ppl who almost die attest too (which can be induced at DMT clinic) is still something that excites and boggles my mind to no end, and although it's not practical I keep thinking to myself that one day when I pass through a country that happens to have such clinics, I aught to try for myself just once!
Maybe you've reached the advanced levels of meditation and can reach a transcdental state on your own, if, so lucky you!
But I have not mastered that yet, and until then, this idea of having a real life truly non-physical and unexplainable purely spiritual experience is something I envy!
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.

I 'know someone' who has tried large doses of LSD, Mushrooms, Ahuywasca, MDMA and other psychedelics, psychotropics, nootropics as well as alternative healing methods... 'he' has had out of body experiences, transcended levels and had life changing revelations....all in search for a closer relationship with hashem and stronger emunah...while I admit that it has made 'him' a better person in general, I cannot say that it made 'him' a better Jew.

My advice, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you are a true believer and are constantly working on reaching higher levels and improving yourself, you have no need to search for alternative methods. Everything you need is in torah/kabbalah. Want something divine? be experiential on shabbos. Read R' Chaim Miller's translation of Kegavna (Raza D'Shabbos). Learn some Tanya, Likutei Moharan, the Bahir, Zohar, etc.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Joe4007 on January 08, 2020, 09:28:23 AM
Wow! That's something I'd really want to read
+100
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 09:54:47 AM
I 'know someone' who has tried large doses of LSD, Mushrooms, Ahuywasca, MDMA and other psychedelics, psychotropics, nootropics as well as alternative healing methods... 'he' has had out of body experiences, transcended levels and had life changing revelations....all in search for a closer relationship with hashem and stronger emunah...while I admit that it has made 'him' a better person in general, I cannot say that it made 'him' a better Jew.

My advice, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you are a true believer and are constantly working on reaching higher levels and improving yourself, you have no need to search for alternative methods. Everything you need is in torah/kabbalah. Want something divine? be experiential on shabbos. Read R' Chaim Miller's translation of Kegavna (Raza D'Shabbos). Learn some Tanya, Likutei Moharan, the Bahir, Zohar, etc.

Very interesting, I either do, or have learned all the seforim you mentioned plus many others in that category, Leshem, Mishnas Chasidim, Shefa tal, Pardes Rimonim etc on a daily basis, and although, yes, you have a point, that you can experience joy in your shabbos or avodas hashem, I just think it`s inaccurate to label it as a transcending experience, (As in a near death or out of body etc where it`s clearly non physical) so although you may get to an elevated state of happiness, perhaps even ecstatic (Which I believe is not connected to spirituality per se in any way, since one can excite themselves about whatever it is he may choose, say Art, or Math etc, but just because you choose to excite yourself in regards to shabbos, that would not label your joy as a spiritual transcending phenomenon, IMHO) , but there is a whole other concept of experiencing the devine either through Advanced Meditation or with psychoactives, I dont mean to say I want to start doing drugs, I never have and never will (Be"h) I meant as a one time thing to try Ayahusca/DMT as a one time experience to see what a real spiritual experience feels like is just very appealing to me, and was curious if anyone had anything to share from either a personal experience or their thoughts about it...
Take care!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 09:57:54 AM
I spent some time in the Amazon Jungle last year and was seriously considering writing a TR but I feel a big part of the audience here is not 'conscious' enough to hear me out.

As a side note, I met a (semi famous) Native Indian Chief who told me that he led a peyote ceremony for a 'group of rabbis' from LA...

Seems like the audience is perhaps a bit more "conscious" then you think and are genuinely interested in hearing more!
How many comments will it take for you to reconsider?!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Zalc on January 08, 2020, 10:26:04 AM


to try Ayahusca/DMT as a one time experience to see what a real spiritual experience feels like

Who is deciding that this is a "real" experience? Yourself? Your Yetzer Horah?

That sounds like real slippery slope, spiritually.

It may also be wide open door for more/different substance abuse/dependency in the future, especially as you have not experienced them yet, and this desire that you have to "just try" DMT can just as easily shift to something else C"V.

The Yetzer is VERY good at finding just the right way to "get" to you:

https://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/hayomyom.asp?tdate=06%2F15%2F2020

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15469&st=&pgnum=84&hilite=

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2020, 10:39:20 AM
That sounds like real slippery slope, spiritually.

I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.

It may also be wide open door for more/different substance abuse/dependency in the future, especially as you have not experienced them yet, and this desire that you have to "just try" DMT can just as easily shift to something else C"V.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Zalc on January 08, 2020, 10:44:07 AM
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Didn't know that.
Really interesting!

I made an uneducated observation.

Regardless, even if it isn't a "gateway drug"... It can be a spiritual gateway to places that are very detrimental, when if only in subtle ways.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2020, 10:48:40 AM
I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/

What about when it is not in a therapeudic setting?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: skyguy918 on January 08, 2020, 01:03:52 PM
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.
Maybe it's just me, but saying that Torah and tefilah, even at their highest levels of intensity, could be considered 'mundane' in comparison to literally anything else doesn't sound very grounded in Judaism. For something to be divine and truly spiritual I would think means that it makes you close to Hashem. The Torah tells us how to get close to Hashem - Torah, tefilah, chessed, etc.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 02:38:10 PM
Maybe it's just me, but saying that Torah and tefilah, even at their highest levels of intensity, could be considered 'mundane' in comparison to literally anything else doesn't sound very grounded in Judaism. For something to be divine and truly spiritual I would think means that it makes you close to Hashem. The Torah tells us how to get close to Hashem - Torah, tefilah, chessed, etc.
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 03:07:19 PM
I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/

Isn`t that a similar argument as saying one should not learn philosophical seforim like Chovos Halvavos Shaar Yichud Hamaaseh, or Moreh Nevuchim, etc since we dont know where his journey or conclusions will end?
In which usually the answer is, that if you`re grounded in your hashkafahs and are coming with an open yet closed-minded view that you aren't making conclusions based off your understanding itself, and that just because you dont understand a given answer that does not give you the right to make your own conclusions etc, which is why it is accepted to learn philosophy seforim, I would think that argument would apply to this situation as well, dont you think?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: skyguy918 on January 08, 2020, 04:06:04 PM
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 04:34:52 PM
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.

You`re missing the point, I was not suggesting one over the other, absolutely Avodas hashem is important and is not getting dropped, just saying that having a DMT experience one time can give someone something that otherwise cannot be attained through tfillah, never suggested one being a substitute for the other.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 08, 2020, 04:43:05 PM
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.
But the real truth is that you are right though, in reality, there is no spiritual level that exists somewhere else that cant be attained through  tfillah or avodas hashem.
So if you read Rabbi  Aryeh kaplan you will see that all the tzadikim of previous generations, and even the big chasidishe rabbis of the last generation DID INDEED engage themselves in very advanced forms of meditation where one can obviously attain these ecstatic states of consciousness as well.
The RAM"A Mipano one of the most famous kabbalist actually passed away from a deep meditation when his shames forgot to wake him up from his trance.
These things may seem very foreign, but it is a FACT that this was very much a central facet in yiddishkeit as any reader of R` Kaplans books would come to agree with very quickly.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?

You win. Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה

אם אסק שמים שם אתה ואציעה שאול הנך
(מ"ג תהלים קלט ח)

My translation: If I ascend to the heavens (via avodah) there you are, and if I descend to below the ground, you'll show me that I have been here all along. why did you dig so deep to find what was always with you. All you had to do was look up and see.

Further Reading:

Likutei Moharan, Part II 82:3:4
King David said: “If I ascend to heaven—You are there!” (Psalms 139:8). Even in heaven, God is there. With each and every ascent he must find God there. Yet we find that Elisha-Acher ascended on high through a Divine Name, and even so denied the essence of God (Chagigah 14b- 16a).
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 08, 2020, 05:09:04 PM
What about when it is not in a therapeudic setting?
It all depends on the set & setting. Like the Rambam says, "everything is good in it's right measure"
I have met MANY balei tshuva who credit psychedelics for their 'moment of return' - Yet on the other hand, I have spent many years volunteering with at risk teens & addicts and have seen & felt the consequences of substance abuse. I have buried friends who died due to misguided discovery attempts, and have seen friends reborn through therapeutic psychedelic journeys.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Zalc on January 09, 2020, 11:19:11 AM
You win. Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה

@Philosophypsychologypsych

And if you do, since this is DDF, please post a TR!

It will be interesting to see how your description of it will evolve after the experience, considering how much was written until now.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 09, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
@Philosophypsychologypsych

And if you do, since this is DDF, please post a TR!

It will be interesting to see how your description of it will evolve after the experience, considering how much was written until now.

If and when I do, I give you my word I`ll share my "Trip" report.
It wouldnt be in the USA I wouldnt do it illegally and not looking to join the Ayahuasca approved temples in the US lol, so would have to be when I traveled to one of the many countries that it is legal and have DMT clinics..
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Randomex on January 09, 2020, 04:34:55 PM
Are you familiar with what the Chazon Ish famously wrote about learning for long periods without interruption? : )
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on January 09, 2020, 04:43:11 PM
But the real truth is that you are right though, in reality, there is no spiritual level that exists somewhere else that cant be attained through  tfillah or avodas hashem.
So if you read Rabbi  Aryeh kaplan you will see that all the tzadikim of previous generations, and even the big chasidishe rabbis of the last generation DID INDEED engage themselves in very advanced forms of meditation where one can obviously attain these ecstatic states of consciousness as well.
The RAM"A Mipano one of the most famous kabbalist actually passed away from a deep meditation when his shames forgot to wake him up from his trance.
These things may seem very foreign, but it is a FACT that this was very much a central facet in yiddishkeit as any reader of R` Kaplans books would come to agree with very quickly.

as sure as I am that (these) tzadikim did reach הפשטת הגשמיות and transcended the limited perspective of גוף and גשמיות,
I am that much more certain that it was achieved solely by the power of focus and דביקות,

and that any 'sensation' that is achieved without that, by mere physical stimulants is not part of עבודת השם, nor an actual escape from anything phsyical.
it is another 'trip' or 'high' within the framework of גוף ונפש הבהמית albeit one that -in specific proper circumstances- can be conducive to inspiration.
if that is an experience that you're seeking
Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה
but let's not make this into a מראה הנבואה...
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 10, 2020, 11:29:00 AM
as sure as I am that (these) tzadikim did reach הפשטת הגשמיות and transcended the limited perspective of גוף and גשמיות,
I am that much more certain that it was achieved solely by the power of focus and דביקות,

and that any 'sensation' that is achieved without that, by mere physical stimulants is not part of עבודת השם, nor an actual escape from anything phsyical.
it is another 'trip' or 'high' within the framework of גוף ונפש הבהמית albeit one that -in specific proper circumstances- can be conducive to inspiration.
if that is an experience that you're seekingbut let's not make this into a מראה הנבואה...

Very, very, well said.
But believe it or not I agree with all this, and that is precisely my point, that hafshatas hagashmiyus through the real way, is pretty much out of my league, previous generations were able to reach those heights and obviously that is the real thing. But experiencing the feeling of Hafshatas Hagashmius is something I envy to at least once, be able to feel, so yes absolutely you`re right this is totally within the framework of guf and nefesh habhamius, I know very well that I wont have achieved any lofty madreiga, but is that a reason not to at least get the inspiration of the sensation of Hafshatas hagashmius, it may be non deserved and forcefully obtained, is that a bad thing though? (so yes, I`ll have the "Nahama D`kisufa that comes along with it.)

And when you say "the power of focus and dveikus" that is exactly what I said , through "Advanced meditation" it`s the same thing, meditation is just blocking out all stimuli  and directing your focus on your thought. It`s Hisbonenus with the addition of hisbodedus of the other thoughts, thats all. So yes, previous Tzadikim were able to reach those levels during Tfillah, at will, unfortuantely I personally cant get anywhere near that, .
(The Chasam Sofer was known to touch the walls while he davened Shmona esrei, he said that sometimes he feels like he is ascending to much and has to touch the walls to bring himself back to reality..)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: TonyTomson on January 10, 2020, 12:36:42 PM
Hi

SWIM has used ayahuasca and discussed with a number of rabbanim, some of who's names you will be familiar with.

If you would like to speak, send me an email youme2526@gmail.com

It has significant potential for positive results but unfortunately can have some negatives too.
I personally have had some very positive experiences with dmt, as well as with mushrooms. 
mushrooms played a big part in bringing me back to a religious life, B"H

For an extremely comprehensive understanding see https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=forum

If you want to achieve a transcendental state without the use of chemicals, check out holotropic breathing (grof breathing) you may want to ask a shayla about this too.

Possible problematic that I heard are: koisaim kesamim.  ov/yidoini,  darchei emori, among other very serious laavin (some chayvei misa skila) however depending on its use and purpose.  Look at the Rambam sefer hamitzvos for each of these.
Keep in mind that some of these would apply to cannabis as well, if they apply to dmt.

If you are going to experience this in a clinical setting than this warning would not be so important, but:  If you are using smokable or injectable dmt you should be ok, as long as it is extracted and prepared properly and has very minimal impurities.
If you are going to be using oral dmt (ayahuasca, yage) bear in mind that caapi is a reversible Monoamino oxide inhibitor (MAOI) and certainly pharmausca (which uses a pharmaceutical maoi rather than caapi and is not considered reversible)  which can have very severe interactions with many psychiatric drugs (and some non-psychiatric ones too, some cardiac drugs) interaction can lead to a possibly fatal hypertensive crisis, which is hard enough but think about going through it while tripping and you anyways feel like you are dying.  Your soul floating out of your body, and having your insides turning inside out as you vomit like you never did before from deep in your bowels.  your mind gets ripped open and all the experiences you have ever had, as well as everything that has happened since briyas haolam is poured into your mind while seeing all sorts of colors and shapes.  It can get pretty intense!!

I would be very happy to discuss further

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on January 10, 2020, 03:02:53 PM
Nahama dekisufa is generous.
I find it hard to believe that an indulgence that is squarely within גוף ונפש הבהמית Would in any way be able to escape them.

More like a 'VR' experience that is fun and may or may not stimulate one aspect (the 'excitement' aspect) of הפשטת הגשמיות

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Rick Strassman on January 10, 2020, 05:05:08 PM
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Rick Strassman on January 10, 2020, 05:14:46 PM
it's important to take DMT orany other psychedelic in the safest most supportive possible environment. They open you up to all kinds of influences, some good, some bad. You would want to be supervised by someone you know and trust, someone who won't consciously or unconsciously be working against your own beliefs and aspirations. This can happen within a medical therapeutic setting, as well as in a more overtly religious context, such as the shamanic or syncretic Latin American settings.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 13, 2020, 01:13:16 AM
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.

Hey Rick!
I have not read your book but I watched the documentary, loved it!!
I actually had some theories about the connection of the Pineal gland and DMT, and was nice to see it was mentioned in the documentary!
Great job, btw not that you implied this at all but just want to reiterate that Aryeh Kaplan writes clearly "While some writers have tried to demonstrate, that the prophets engaged in drug experiences, there is no objective evidence, either from the biblical text or from the classical literature, that such substances were involved"...
I look forward to reading your book "DMT and the soul of Prophecy"
Take care!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 13, 2020, 07:26:41 AM
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.
Holy Heavens! We have the real Dr. Strassman in the forums with us??? I am simply star struck!
There is so much I want to learn from you, I wish I could spend a shabbat with you somehow.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Rick Strassman on January 15, 2020, 10:45:58 AM
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on January 15, 2020, 05:57:58 PM
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?
I'm still figuring that out, I guess I am a nomad. At the moment I am living in Odessa, Ukraine.

If we are going to do this, let's do it right!

Who else is joining? (I bet you know most of them personally)

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 16, 2020, 02:54:28 AM
it's important to take DMT orany other psychedelic in the safest most supportive possible environment. They open you up to all kinds of influences, some good, some bad. You would want to be supervised by someone you know and trust, someone who won't consciously or unconsciously be working against your own beliefs and aspirations. This can happen within a medical therapeutic setting, as well as in a more overtly religious context, such as the shamanic or syncretic Latin American settings.
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that the clinician/Shamans beliefs can influence your experience/visions you have while on DMT, how can that be? You are not concious while under the effects of it so how would another individual have the ability of interfering in any way?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: AsherO on January 16, 2020, 07:34:59 AM
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?

2. While there might very well be therapeutic affects to psychedelics, that is only applicable to treat certain conditions. There are numerous examples of medical treatments that could kill a healthy person (R”L) but are used to treat terminal illnesses. A distant correlary of this would be (lehavdil) Mei Chatas used to purify someone who is Tmei Meis, it purifies the impure and makes Tamei the pure. What I’m saying is that while LSD might help someone who’s addicted to Opiates, that doesn’t mean it has any therapeutic benefit to a healthy person and might very well be detrimental.

3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: thaber on January 16, 2020, 09:18:55 AM
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?

2. While there might very well be therapeutic affects to psychedelics, that is only applicable to treat certain conditions. There are numerous examples of medical treatments that could kill a healthy person (R”L) but are used to treat terminal illnesses. A distant correlary of this would be (lehavdil) Mei Chatas used to purify someone who is Tmei Meis, it purifies the impure and makes Tamei the pure. What I’m saying is that while LSD might help someone who’s addicted to Opiates, that doesn’t mean it has any therapeutic benefit to a healthy person and might very well be detrimental.

3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.
So this is what it takes to revive you?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on January 16, 2020, 09:45:52 AM
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?


Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views

Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.

That's quite an accusation, can anyone prove that they're real? It would be a letdown to discover that an expert on the forum is actually not who he says he is.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: aygart on January 16, 2020, 10:10:57 AM
Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views



Speak for yourself
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on January 16, 2020, 10:39:56 AM
Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views
I think I made an objective argument upthread why it's illogical that these substances can provide any actual spirituality
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: TonyTomson on January 16, 2020, 12:27:36 PM
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that the clinician/Shamans beliefs can influence your experience/visions you have while on DMT, how can that be? You are not concious while under the effects of it so how would another individual have the ability of interfering in any way?

You are not fully unconscious either (how will you get your vomit into the bucket?  run to the toilet if you get diarrhea?)

Your mind is extremely open to suggestions both internal and external.

The guide is really a guide.

You definitely want to be sure you trust whoever you choose to participate with.

You do have the option to do it solo and then you are less susceptible to influence. 

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Randomex on January 16, 2020, 02:10:43 PM
I invited Tony, so I can vouch for his independent existence (but who can vouch for mine? :D).
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2020, 02:14:18 PM
3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.
IPs all seem to check out as legit.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 16, 2020, 03:39:46 PM
IPs all seem to check out as legit.
Thank You.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on January 16, 2020, 03:48:47 PM
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?

2. While there might very well be therapeutic affects to psychedelics, that is only applicable to treat certain conditions. There are numerous examples of medical treatments that could kill a healthy person (R”L) but are used to treat terminal illnesses. A distant correlary of this would be (lehavdil) Mei Chatas used to purify someone who is Tmei Meis, it purifies the impure and makes Tamei the pure. What I’m saying is that while LSD might help someone who’s addicted to Opiates, that doesn’t mean it has any therapeutic benefit to a healthy person and might very well be detrimental.

3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.

I have no idea why you get any of the feelings you get, and that includes this one.
I have nothing to do with anyone that has responded to this thread nor do I even know the identity of anyone who has responded.
Amazing that you think I would have an interest in creating accounts to respond to my own posts, you seem to be attempting to come up with reasons to avoid discussion.
What's bothering you about the subject, that`s making you have these suspicions?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on January 16, 2020, 08:38:41 PM
I think I made an objective argument upthread why it's illogical that these substances can provide any actual spirituality

Whether or not your argument is true, it's a bold (and slightly offensive) claim to say that it's coming from taaveh.

Unless you say everything we do is somewhat coming from our taavehs...
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on January 16, 2020, 08:58:52 PM
Whether or not your argument is true, it's a bold (and slightly offensive) claim to say that it's coming from taaveh.

Unless you say everything we do is somewhat coming from our taavehs...
where it's coming from was @AsherO's comment. I argued where it's going. noplace beyond a nice dream
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: AsherO on January 16, 2020, 09:55:06 PM
What's bothering you about the subject, that`s making you have these suspicions?

The only thing that bothers me is that you’re trying trying to suggest this is a tool to help you serve god better. Outside of that, have a safe trip and enjoy.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Rick Strassman on January 18, 2020, 10:24:59 PM
One is not asleep or in coma during a psychedelic drug experience. What goes on around you determines the nature of your experience, as does your own preparation, intent, how you manage the effects, your state of mind at the time, and so on.

There are therapeutic effects of psychedelics; e.g., treating depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, addictions (alcohol, tobacco, opiates). Explanatory models gets slippery, though. Some believe that "spiritual" experiences brought on by psychedelics are curative, whereas less theological models posit a enhancement of mainstream therapeutic processes, such as  increased contact with emotions.

More slippery are claims that psychedelics "enhance spiritual growth," like meditation practice; or somehow make people "more spiritual." I know of a Jewish congregation that uses DMT-containing ayahuasca during Shabbat services on Friday evenings to increase their concentration, visualization, emotional involvement of their davening.

What is suspicious about my contributing to this thread? I'm neither supporting nor rebuking OP. I'm trying to enlarge the discussion because I've studied it for so long, performed hands-on clinical research with these drugs, and worked hard to understand how psychedelics may contribute to explicating the metaphysics of prophecy.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: JuryDuty on January 18, 2020, 10:28:50 PM
Thank you Dr. Strassman for your professional perspective.
And thank you mods for reopening and cleaning up the thread to focus on the relevant discussions.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: chevron on January 21, 2020, 12:44:10 AM
One is not asleep or in coma during a psychedelic drug experience. What goes on around you determines the nature of your experience, as does your own preparation, intent, how you manage the effects, your state of mind at the time, and so on.

There are therapeutic effects of psychedelics; e.g., treating depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, addictions (alcohol, tobacco, opiates). Explanatory models gets slippery, though. Some believe that "spiritual" experiences brought on by psychedelics are curative, whereas less theological models posit a enhancement of mainstream therapeutic processes, such as  increased contact with emotions.

More slippery are claims that psychedelics "enhance spiritual growth," like meditation practice; or somehow make people "more spiritual." I know of a Jewish congregation that uses DMT-containing ayahuasca during Shabbat services on Friday evenings to increase their concentration, visualization, emotional involvement of their davening.

What is suspicious about my contributing to this thread? I'm neither supporting nor rebuking OP. I'm trying to enlarge the discussion because I've studied it for so long, performed hands-on clinical research with these drugs, and worked hard to understand how psychedelics may contribute to explicating the metaphysics of prophecy.

Lehavdil, was Just watching the Netflix documentary world war II in color

They say that the German soldiers were taking the equivalent of crystal meth.

Simcha gottleib could shed much on this subject.

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: chevron on January 21, 2020, 12:47:14 AM
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?

Shushan 2
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: skyguy918 on January 21, 2020, 11:05:49 AM
Lehavdil, was Just watching the Netflix documentary world war II in color

They say that the German soldiers were taking the equivalent of crystal meth.

Simcha gottleib could shed much on this subject.
Those were amphetamines, which aren't necessarily hallucinogens
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen
Although hallucinations are a common symptom of amphetamine psychosis, amphetamines are not considered hallucinogens as they are not a primary effect of the drugs themselves. While hallucinations can occur when abusing stimulants, the nature of stimulant psychosis is not unlike delirium.

Re WWII, everyone used them in some capacity, but no one as much as the Nazis. Each part of their military had a different nickname for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetamines#Military_use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetamines#Military_use)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Eliyohu on January 22, 2020, 10:32:36 PM
Is Ayahuasca, the same thing being discussed here?
I was just speaking to someone who asked R Dovid Fienstien if it's Avoda Zara, which he said he's not familiar with it. However R Heinman was familiar with it and told him it's not..
The reasoning iiuc is that a root of a plant can't become Assur and also those who worship it are worshipping the spirit/snake behind it not the actual plant
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: enwhycee on January 22, 2020, 11:39:05 PM
Is Ayahuasca, the same thing being discussed here?

those who worship it are worshipping the spirit/snake behind it not the actual plant

FACT

Let’s go ahead and close this thread now.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: johnshek on January 23, 2020, 02:03:43 AM
The weird side of the internet comes to DDF...