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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 02, 2019, 11:57:02 PM

Title: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 02, 2019, 11:57:02 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gozalim on April 03, 2019, 03:00:17 PM
please let's not fool ourselves that there's anything religious or spiritual in it.

just enjoy the trip
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: yzj on April 03, 2019, 03:25:46 PM
Do you really want to experience what for some is a life changing event and not necessarily in a positive sense?


“Many users describe profound, life-changing experiences such as visiting other worlds, talking with alien entities known as "DMT elves" or "machine elves," and total shifts in the perception of identity and reality.”

“Rabbi” Zalman Schachter-Shalomi was originally highly regarded by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Partially as a result of his experience with LSD he went completely off the deep end. He was the originator of the rainbow tallit and he preached that if you enjoy gardening on shabbos it’s a mitzvah. He ended up running off with a Goya and was accused of some sordid stuff in the guise of his new religion.

In his own words:

“The most serious challenges to Judaism posed by modern thought and experience are to me game theory and psychedelic experience. Once I realize the game structure of my commitments, once I see how all my theologizing is just an elaborate death struggle between my soul and the God within her, or when I can undergo the deepest cosmic experience via some minuscule quantity of organic alkaloids or LSD, then the whole validity of my ontological assertions is in doubt. But game theory works the other way too. God too is playing a game of hide-and-seek with himself and me. The psychedelic experience can be not only a challenge, but also a support of my faith. After seeing what really happens at the point where all is one and where God-immanent surprises God-transcendent and they merge in cosmic laughter, I can also see Judaism in a new and amazing light.”

Reflecting on his first acid trip many years later, Schachter said:


“I realized that all forms of religion are masks that the divine wears to communicate with us. Behind all religions there’s a reality, and this reality wears whatever clothes it needs to speak to a particular people.”

The hallucinogenic experiences are not innocuous. They can permanently alter one’s perception of reality.

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: ADG on April 03, 2019, 03:55:27 PM
Do you recognize that Pot, Hashish ect is in fact assur (referring to the famous R' Moshe F psak)? Do you recognize LSD is Assur? If so why should this be any different? If not you are clearly already off the deep-end.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Lou Bob on April 03, 2019, 06:37:50 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
DDF and Google are not your
A: Doctor
B: Rabbi
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 03, 2019, 07:08:16 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: doodle on April 03, 2019, 08:25:37 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: gingyguy on April 03, 2019, 08:53:10 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
this is possibly the first post you made that I agree with! Maxes tic!
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:57:23 PM
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?

(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)
First of all, ask your LOR for halachic advice, not an anonymous internet forum.
Second of all, at least spell the drug correctly.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:58:12 PM
Do you really want to experience what for some is a life changing event and not necessarily in a positive sense?


“Many users describe profound, life-changing experiences such as visiting other worlds, talking with alien entities known as "DMT elves" or "machine elves," and total shifts in the perception of identity and reality.”

“Rabbi” Zalman Schachter-Shalomi was originally highly regarded by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Partially as a result of his experience with LSD he went completely off the deep end. He was the originator of the rainbow tallit and he preached that if you enjoy gardening on shabbos it’s a mitzvah. He ended up running off with a Goya and was accused of some sordid stuff in the guise of his new religion.

In his own words:

“The most serious challenges to Judaism posed by modern thought and experience are to me game theory and psychedelic experience. Once I realize the game structure of my commitments, once I see how all my theologizing is just an elaborate death struggle between my soul and the God within her, or when I can undergo the deepest cosmic experience via some minuscule quantity of organic alkaloids or LSD, then the whole validity of my ontological assertions is in doubt. But game theory works the other way too. God too is playing a game of hide-and-seek with himself and me. The psychedelic experience can be not only a challenge, but also a support of my faith. After seeing what really happens at the point where all is one and where God-immanent surprises God-transcendent and they merge in cosmic laughter, I can also see Judaism in a new and amazing light.”

Reflecting on his first acid trip many years later, Schachter said:


“I realized that all forms of religion are masks that the divine wears to communicate with us. Behind all religions there’s a reality, and this reality wears whatever clothes it needs to speak to a particular people.”

The hallucinogenic experiences are not innocuous. They can permanently alter one’s perception of reality.
One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 08:58:27 PM
Do you recognize that Pot, Hashish ect is in fact assur (referring to the famous R' Moshe F psak)?
Not so pashut, read the tshuva.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:00:11 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
If you're going to do it, just do it, don't make believe that there is anything inherently spiritual or kabbalistic about it. If you were holding on a certain level and felt it was a tool to be used to gain something then maybe but you're not there so don't kid yourself.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:02:23 PM
Please go for help . Don’t look for excuses or make it into a “religous” thing .
Have pity on Yourself! No one else cares about you like you do .
Please ! Get the help you need
You're just being dismissive and putting him down, that accomplishes nothing and just makes you look like a fool. If you have something intelligent to say then say it, if not then kindly take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 09:02:34 PM

+1
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: good sam on April 03, 2019, 09:14:01 PM
DDF and Google are not your
A: Doctor
B: Rabbi
WebMD and Stack Exchange on under the other hand
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2019, 09:26:06 PM
DMT is a category of its own, natural pyschedelics have been used by some of the biggest Kabbalists in their attemts to reach high meditative states.
The pineal gland is one of the most misunderstoon or just simply not studied parts of the body, with referances in Kabbalah with some sources tying in the placement of the Tefillin directly above the pineal gland is not a coincedence..but to simply say that trying DMT is the same as a drug seeker using his acid is simply uneducated.
Tell me more about the kabbalists who used drugs?
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: joey89 on April 03, 2019, 09:31:00 PM
Should I Take LSD to Attain Spiritual Heights?
By the Grace of G‑d,
20th of Marcheshvan, 5725
[Oct. 26, 1964]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Greeting and Blessings:

I am in receipt of your letter of October 18th, which you write in the name of your friends and in your own behalf, and ask my opinion regarding the new drug called L.S.D., which is said to have the property of mental stimulation, etc.

Biochemistry is not my field, and I cannot express an opinion on the drug you mention, especially as it is still new. However what I can say is that the claim that the said drug can stimulate mystical insight, etc., is not the proper way to attain mystical inspiration, even if it had such a property. The Jewish way is to go from strength to strength, not by means of drugs and other artificial stimulants, which have a place only if they are necessary for the physical health, in accordance with the Mitzva to take care of one’s health. I hope that everyone will agree that before any drugs are taken one should first utilize all one’s natural capacities, and when this is done truly and fully, I do not think there will be a need to look for artificial stimulants.

I trust that you and your group, in view of your Yeshiva background, have regular appointed times for the study of Torah, and the inner aspects of the Torah, namely the teachings of Chassidus, and that such study is in accordance with the principle of our Sages, namely “The essential thing is the deed,” i.e., the actual conduct of the daily life in accordance with the Torah and Mitzvoth, prayer, Teflllin, Kashruth, etc., etc. This is only a matter of will and determination, for nothing stands in the way of the will. I trust that you are also using your good influence throughout your environment.

With blessing,

Link: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/3190865/jewish/Should-I-Take-LSD-to-Attain-Spiritual-Heights.htm
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: joey89 on April 03, 2019, 09:35:30 PM
The Problem With Drugs
By Adin Even-Israel (Steinsaltz)July 4, 2010 6:56 PM
I once heard from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of righteous memory, in a private audience, an observation about drugs.

He was speaking about the effect on a person taking drugs. He was, incidentally, very careful about not saying anything negative about anybody. He said that the opinion of the Torah in general is that the person should be the master over his or her self, and enslavement of any sort is wrong.

Can a person still be the master over himself when involved with drugs and other addictive substances?

The problem with using any kinds of drugs or almost anything that has a little bit of psychoactive material is the same. Indeed, almost everything is psychoactive, including bread. If one fasts and then takes a piece of bread, it is possible to see how many changes are made in one's psyche.

The specific problem, however, with drugs is that people come relatively fast to a point of no return. In truth there is never a point of no return; but one quickly reaches a point from where it is very hard, almost impossible, to return...

Link: https://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/1171699/jewish/The-Problem-With-Drugs.htm
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Denverite on April 03, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
Should I Take LSD to Attain Spiritual Heights?
By the Grace of G‑d,
20th of Marcheshvan, 5725
[Oct. 26, 1964]
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Greeting and Blessings:

I am in receipt of your letter of October 18th, which you write in the name of your friends and in your own behalf, and ask my opinion regarding the new drug called L.S.D., which is said to have the property of mental stimulation, etc.

Biochemistry is not my field, and I cannot express an opinion on the drug you mention, especially as it is still new. However what I can say is that the claim that the said drug can stimulate mystical insight, etc., is not the proper way to attain mystical inspiration, even if it had such a property. The Jewish way is to go from strength to strength, not by means of drugs and other artificial stimulants, which have a place only if they are necessary for the physical health, in accordance with the Mitzva to take care of one’s health. I hope that everyone will agree that before any drugs are taken one should first utilize all one’s natural capacities, and when this is done truly and fully, I do not think there will be a need to look for artificial stimulants.

I trust that you and your group, in view of your Yeshiva background, have regular appointed times for the study of Torah, and the inner aspects of the Torah, namely the teachings of Chassidus, and that such study is in accordance with the principle of our Sages, namely “The essential thing is the deed,” i.e., the actual conduct of the daily life in accordance with the Torah and Mitzvoth, prayer, Teflllin, Kashruth, etc., etc. This is only a matter of will and determination, for nothing stands in the way of the will. I trust that you are also using your good influence throughout your environment.

With blessing,

Link: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/3190865/jewish/Should-I-Take-LSD-to-Attain-Spiritual-Heights.htm

Wow, as usual, beautiful and timeless wisdom.



One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.

I totally agree with you. I think though that @yzj was more trying to tell the OP to have a true and honest reckoning with himself (this seems like a guy asking) :) about the both the upsides along with possibly profound and permanent downsides?



@Philosophypsychologypsych I totally agree with others that you must ask an actual Sheila to someone who knows you well. Since you did ask here and since it is anonymous, can I ask how old you are? A fifty-year old solidly established family man, who studies Torah, experiencing something like this would be very different than a 25 year old single guy seeking his place in the world. I don’t understand the appeal of drugs and alcohol but since I live in Colorado, I know way more than I want about Marijuana. It seems that each day they are discovering more about how detrimental it is to use it before the age of 26 and that it literally arrests your brain development irreversibly, for life. Did these tribes that used this drug have strict taboos that only allowed its use amongst their elders (like we have taboos about learning Kabbalah outside of certain contexts)? Did they have other taboos around it that you may also not know about?

Just some other things to maybe think about...
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: yzj on April 03, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
One person going off because of something doesn't make that thing assur.

I didn’t say that made it assur. I simply pointed out that as fascinated as OP is by the idea, it’s known to cause altered perceptions of reality that is sometimes a permanent life changing experience.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306889.php
 
To give an idea of how radically it can permanently change one’s perception of reality I cited Shachter-Shalomi and his LSD and acid trips,
which took him from being one of the rebbes closest and most valued shluchim to the guy who took the renewal movement perhaps lower than reform judaism. The fact that DMT is known to do this ought to give any thinking person pause before going on that journey....
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: 12HRS on April 03, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Must be on something already because its not friday
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: mmgfarb on April 03, 2019, 11:04:20 PM
Must be on something already because its not friday
Lol
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Philosophypsychologypsych on April 04, 2019, 01:25:46 AM
The people that keep comparing LSD to DMT simply dont even know what DMT is but feel super confident about their responses...
Let me explain a few pivotal diffrences, when a person takes DMT they are totally unconcious and appear to be in a sleep like state, when they wake up its effects are gone, nobody walking around like lunatics on DMT the way LSD used.
DMT is not addictive (Physically or pyschologically) or habit forming, studies taken from people that use it found no results of negative side effects, but most users found an increase positive effect in their search for self actualization.
DMT is NOT like acid that gives many people permanent altered perceptions of reality, but rather is only said to sometimes cause issues in users who previously suffered from mental illness but has not been found AT ALL to cause it in the first place.
Synesthesia is something you can experience on DMT which is super fascinating, and being that all negative effects of LSD are eliminated with DMT I thought it maybe worth considering, as someone who does not use drugs and never has used drugs.
Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: bb1836 on April 04, 2019, 10:59:14 AM
Once we're on the subject, this conversation happened yesterday (I wonder if the OP had listened to this and that's where he got the idea for this thread).....viewer discretion advised....skip to minute 33:43

Title: Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
Post by: Suave on April 04, 2019, 02:17:39 PM
Has anyone here read the book Cannabis Chassidis? Written by an acquaintance of mine... He discusses some relevant topics.

https://www.amazon.com/Cannabis-Chassidis-Ancient-Emerging-Torah/dp/157027262X