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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 12:52:55 AM

Title: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 12:52:55 AM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1714627/chaos-in-lakewood-planned-kosher-event-for-yeshiva-bochrim-canceled-at-last-minute-hundreds-of-bochrim-protest-arrests-made.html
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:01:53 AM
Absolutely ridiculous how bored people are. This was supposed to be a beautiful kosher event during BEIN HAZMANIM. I'm appalled.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: KSMH on April 15, 2019, 01:02:17 AM
http://matzav.com/full-report-videos-coverage-cancellation-of-lakewood-siyum-kumzitz-followed-by-protest-in-forest-park-one-bochur-arrested/
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:03:41 AM
the one who banned it should go get a life.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:04:59 AM
This abuse of power has gotten out of hand, until now it was mostly not publicized, but now they have the gall to do so so publicly. I've never been so ashamed of Lakewood before.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:14:22 AM
Tonight's event highlights multiple issues

Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: miles lover on April 15, 2019, 01:21:51 AM
Tonight's event highlights multiple issues

  • there are way too many bored bucherim out there
  • Abuse of power by forcing your opinion on others, (Event was 100% kosher, Don't like it stay home or go to shul)
  • It's so easy to pull signatures from R"Y and manipulate others, to a point that it's very sad
One more issue.. people that are not supposed to be making events in lakewood are attempting to make.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yzj on April 15, 2019, 01:22:42 AM
Tonight's event highlights multiple issues

  • there are way too many bored bucherim out there
  • Abuse of power by forcing your opinion on others, (Event was 100% kosher, Don't like it stay home or go to shul)
  • It's so easy to pull signatures from R"Y and manipulate others, to a point that it's very sad

Who says they were manipulated? The bochurim will tell you that it was a concert in the guise of a siyum and divrei hisorerus. The latter was window dressing for the real show. Whether the bochurim should be deprived of a concert as an outlet during bein hazmanim is a different question, and Iíll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:23:22 AM
Tonight's event highlights multiple issues

  • there are way too many bored bucherim out there
  • Abuse of power by forcing your opinion on others, (Event was 100% kosher, Don't like it stay home or go to shul)
  • It's so easy to pull signatures from R"Y and manipulate others, to a point that it's very sad
  • The Shortage of פרשים  (https://www.google.com/search?q=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D+%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%94) so they need to rely on k9 units
Ironically, this event was to curb A.
One more issue.. people that are not supposed to be making events in lakewood are attempting to make.
Say wut?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:24:42 AM
One more issue.. people that are not supposed to be making events in lakewood are attempting to make.
added
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:29:14 AM
BTW the same debate is going on in BP on a different level, if you should permit the boys to go to the אונטרן plays, it's very unfortunate that some will say no just to get attention at the expense of others, and whatever you'll do to accommodate (in ruchniyus) wouldn't be enough
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Definitions on April 15, 2019, 01:36:29 AM
Am I the only one that has such mixed bittersweet feelings about this that it's too hard to explain properly? I'm on both sides if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:36:54 AM
Quote
So, letís understand,  you wanted to make a Kunzitz, with a siyum and Divrei Chizzuk and someone was AGAINST IT ? What was their problem with it ?  And why did you cave in ??
Why can Mir Yeshiva dinner have music and Bonei Olam have singing and a Time has a siyum and dancing and you cant ??
It makes no sense.
There are, sadly, many people in this town,  with too much time on their hands, who will he moche on everything. You can not give in to them.  Every fund raiser has a kunzitz.  Hatzolah had Pumpidisa,  you can go down the line.  Eatontown had Nissim Black.  I dont chap why you couldnít do a Kumzitz.   This is crazy and getting crazier.
Thanx, Rí Yosef, for all ur efforts on behalf of the bochurim of this town.  May your next event be a smashing success.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: miles lover on April 15, 2019, 01:37:09 AM
Am I the only one that has such mixed bittersweet feelings about this that it's too hard to explain properly? I'm on both sides if that makes any sense.
Lol agreed
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:40:26 AM
you have an issue its not a controlled event? sit down with the organizer identify the issues and work it out, it's not a kunz to BAN
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: miles lover on April 15, 2019, 01:42:37 AM
you have an issue its not a controlled event? sit down with the organizer identify the issues and work it out, it's not a kunz to BAN
I really donít know any details but I would assume the main issue was about the concert.. the siyum that they wrote about was just to cover up....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:44:56 AM
I really donít know any details but I would assume the main issue was about the concert.. the siyum that they wrote about was just to cover up....
TBH didn't see any siyum spoken of.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:46:11 AM
TBH didn't see any siyum spoken of.
since when do need a siyum along with a kumzitz, its not skver, (oh its lakewood never mind)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: miles lover on April 15, 2019, 01:48:52 AM
since when do need a siyum along with a kumzitz, its not skver, (oh its lakewood never mind)
Your catching on... Bh
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 15, 2019, 01:51:19 AM
Your catching on... Bh
it's just a matter of time the sides will flip
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: smart man on April 15, 2019, 02:35:32 AM
"בהשתתפות רבנים וראשי ישיבות" - anyone knows who that is?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 04:49:08 AM
Just wait till they blame it on Shlomo Carlbach having a Kumzitz in the 1950s and "see how he turned out":  :P

https://youtu.be/nt6--qk-zxI

https://youtu.be/oh2L4cjAKf0
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: TimT on April 15, 2019, 05:38:27 AM
Who was behind the protests ?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: shapsam on April 15, 2019, 07:38:08 AM
Who was behind the protests ?
Bochorim that wanted to go to the event?

BTW, it looks like to me that it was nice and peaceful.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: dealfinder11 on April 15, 2019, 07:43:02 AM
what really frustrates me is the predictable outcry, with some of the public attacking and blaming Yeshiva Bachurim. These are the same people that make noise about bachurim on purim, and every other opportunity as well. IMO these people are bigots . Bigoted against one of, if not the most, kadosh demographics in the world today. I don't need to rehash all the difficulties and restrictions that come along with being a bachur. Not that bachurim are resentful for it. But the reality is the reality. And the people criticizing are either ignorant (probably most) or just plain resentful bitter people.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 15, 2019, 08:08:39 AM
what really frustrates me is the predictable outcry, with some of the public attacking and blaming Yeshiva Bachurim. These are the same people that make noise about bachurim on purim, and every other opportunity as well. IMO these people are bigots . Bigoted against one of, if not the most, kadosh demographics in the world today. I don't need to rehash all the difficulties and restrictions that come along with being a bachur. Not that bachurim are resentful for it. But the reality is the reality. And the people criticizing are either ignorant (probably most) or just plain resentful bitter people.
Actually, from what I've seen, those people are the ones bashing those who cancelled the event.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: shapsam on April 15, 2019, 08:29:44 AM
Just to point out, an event with Isaac Honig is the most kosher event you will ever get and there couldn't have been worries that it would turn into something "non kosher".
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 09:16:20 AM
Lakewood is a pickle, the protest last night was the krach.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: TimT on April 15, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
Lakewood is a pickle, the protest last night was the krach.
YOY!!
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: VacationLover on April 15, 2019, 10:58:43 AM
TYW removed the page? Sounds suspicious   :-X
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 15, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
All they (Travis) really needed to do , was to attach it to a Tzedaka Organization
Seems to be that anytime someone wants to break boundaries in Lakewood, they just co-op an organization and then anything goes (starting with the CEO's 9 days siyum event)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: doodle on April 15, 2019, 11:16:41 AM
This abuse of power has gotten out of hand, until now it was mostly not publicized, but now they have the gall to do so so publicly. I've never been so ashamed of Lakewood before.
Lakewood is in total free fall .
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 12:40:11 PM
I know absolutely nothing about what this event was supposed to be, but something was missing on the planning side if the reactions of local rabbonim and menahalim weren't considered early in the planning stages.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 12:43:16 PM
I know absolutely nothing about what this event was supposed to be, but something was missing on the planning side if the reactions of local rabbonim and menahalim weren't considered early in the planning stages.
They were all considered, the organizer knows how they run, and planned it in a way he was confident they would approve, which they did until....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 01:06:01 PM
They were all considered, the organizer knows how they run, and planned it in a way he was confident they would approve, which they did until....
I am confused. Was it that he was confident they would approve or that they actually did? Either he didn't dot his i's and cross his t's or he isn't as familiar with how they run as you think. What is the source that they had approved?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:13:41 PM
I am confused. Was it that he was confident they would approve or that they actually did? Either he didn't dot his i's and cross his t's or he isn't as familiar with how they run as you think. What is the source that they had approved?
There were no complaints until the day of. He got it all right, it was just a new "up and coming" guy trying to make a name by putting himself where he doesn't belong that made problems.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 01:17:10 PM
There were no complaints until the day of. He got it all right, it was just a new "up and coming" guy trying to make a name by putting himself where he doesn't belong that made problems.
right, and therefore? Who had approved and what is the source?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:21:03 PM
right, and therefore? Who had approved and what is the source?
No one said it was approved before. Just it was done in a way that such problems shouldn't arise, and I'm sure many people who start these problems typically looked past it, because of the way it was done
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 01:24:06 PM
No one said it was approved before.
they would approve, which they did until....

????
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
No one said it was approved before. Just it was done in a way that such problems shouldn't arise, and I'm sure many people who start these problems typically looked past it, because of the way it was done
Ahhh so it was based on assuming they would approve without actually discussing it first. Also known as lack of planning.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 15, 2019, 01:25:50 PM
As soon as it was cancelled they should have had a Kumzitz at the Watermark, the bar in Asbury Park where a Lakewood tzedaka event was recently held instead....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 15, 2019, 01:29:07 PM
Ahhh so it was based on assuming they would approve without actually discussing it first. Also known as lack of planning.

Um, werenít Rav Yehuda Jacobs and other well known figures scheduled to be speaking there?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 15, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
Ahhh so it was based on assuming they would approve without actually discussing it first. Also known as lack of planning.
Since when is anything approved? and what would it help to be approved if the approval can be overruled or removed ?

Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 01:33:04 PM
Ahhh so it was based on assuming they would approve without actually discussing it first. Also known as lack of planning.

From what I understand numerous rabbonim were involved from beforehand.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: simplicity on April 15, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
There were no complaints until the day of. He got it all right, it was just a new "up and coming" guy trying to make a name by putting himself where he doesn't belong that made problems.
this is not true, they were told last week to call it off. and who cares who instigated this cancellation if afterwards the 'big' rabbi's joined?   
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: simplicity on April 15, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
i'm not saying i understand them totally, but isn't this where daas torah comes in?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
????
Originally I was using the word "approved" as not protesting. Later, based on the way you were asking I realized you meant a stamp of approval, so I answered to that.
Um, werenít Rav Yehuda Jacobs and other well known figures scheduled to be speaking there?
Correct, I know of Reb Mendel Slomowitz specifically. He was forced to back out of speaking all the while he was still supporting it.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 01:58:37 PM
Ahhh so it was based on assuming they would approve without actually discussing it first. Also known as lack of planning.
There are a few sets of people who play a role here.
Rabanim who approved and were involved.
Rabanim who knew nothing of it, or said nothing of it.
Bored people who attempted to persuade A and B to shut it down. Whom with some they succeeded, some they didn't.
The ones responsible for shutting it down didn't have an opinion in the first place, while other prominent Rabanim approved.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 02:29:28 PM
i'm not saying i understand them totally, but isn't this where daas torah comes in?
Just asking, do you know what Daas Torah means?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 02:30:58 PM
Um, werenít Rav Yehuda Jacobs and other well known figures scheduled to be speaking there?
I have no idea.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 02:34:06 PM
Originally I was using the word "approved" as not protesting. Later, based on the way you were asking I realized you meant a stamp of approval, so I answered to that.Correct, I know of Reb Mendel Slomowitz specifically. He was forced to back out of speaking all the while he was still supporting it.
There are a few sets of people who play a role here.
Rabanim who approved and were involved.
Rabanim who knew nothing of it, or said nothing of it.
Bored people who attempted to persuade A and B to shut it down. Whom with some they succeeded, some they didn't.
The ones responsible for shutting it down didn't have an opinion in the first place, while other prominent Rabanim approved.

Was anyone on the record as approving it? Once there is someone on the record it becomes much more difficult for the event to get canceled. If no one is ready to go on the record as supporting it then you know that it will be canceled at the end.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 02:41:33 PM
Was anyone on the record as approving it? Once there is someone on the record it becomes much more difficult for the event to get canceled. If no one is ready to go on the record as supporting it then you know that it will be canceled at the end.
Reb mendel Slomowitz was officially speaking there, he owned up to it. That's pretty much on the record.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: TheAsh on April 15, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
Aaaaaaand YWN has officially caved to censorship and remove the news item.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1714627/chaos-in-lakewood-planned-kosher-event-for-yeshiva-bochrim-canceled-at-last-minute-hundreds-of-bochrim-protest-arrests-made.html

= page not found.

Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 15, 2019, 02:46:28 PM
I have no idea.

It was rhetorical. Rabbi Jacobs and Rabbi Slomivitz were on board. If that is not good enough perhaps we should convene the Sanhedrin before each event.

One thing is certain: Donít ask marital advice from anyone who isnít married long enough to be holding by marrying off children and donít weigh in on something that involves bochurim unless you are old and wise enough to realize that issues are multi dimensional and complex, and what makes sense in theory doesnít always address the reality on the ground.

I visited Westgate almost 20 years ago and as I look around now I wonder if perhaps there arenít some parents of teens and beyond thinking to themselves ď perhaps we should have completed those basketball courts that were never finished due to those who opposed them....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: avromie7 on April 15, 2019, 02:54:34 PM
I've never been so ashamed of Lakewood before.
I have.
Just asking, do you know what Daas Torah means?
Having a long beard and inheriting a big yeshiva?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: gingyguy on April 15, 2019, 02:59:32 PM
I have. Having a long beard and inheriting a big yeshiva?
You sound bitter about something
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 03:17:23 PM
You sound bitter about something
You sound oblivious about somethings.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 03:19:45 PM
Reb mendel Slomowitz was officially speaking there, he owned up to it. That's pretty much on the record.
Source?
Speaking does not mean done in consultation with or even that he knew what it was all about. It is most likely that he did, but it still doesn't replace a full-fledged "under the guidance of"

(FTR, there is nothing I have heard about this event which disturbs me and have no clue what the opposition to it was for. I don't know much about it at all other than what is posted here. I only see some poor planning)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Definitions on April 15, 2019, 03:27:10 PM
Source?
Speaking does not mean done in consultation with or even that he knew what it was all about. It is most likely that he did, but it still doesn't replace a full-fledged "under the guidance of"
Just to add to this. Maybe he agreed to speak there only because he knew that if he wouldn't the matzav there would be worse.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 03:28:45 PM
Source?
Speaking does not mean done in consultation with or even that he knew what it was all about. It is most likely that he did, but it still doesn't replace a full-fledged "under the guidance of"

(FTR, there is nothing I have heard about this event which disturbs me and have no clue what the opposition to it was for. I don't know much about it at all other than what is posted here. I only see some poor planning)
Nothing public so I can't help you anymore.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 03:38:52 PM
Nothing public so I can't help you anymore.
So the answer to this
Was anyone on the record as approving it?
is no?
You could have just said that without all the beating around the bush.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 03:42:20 PM
So the answer to this is no?

Even if someone explicitly approved it beforehand, if it wasn't made public before the event (due to a lack of foresight or naivetť), I doubt it will be made public now.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 03:43:09 PM
Even if someone explicitly approved it beforehand, if it wasn't made public before the event, I doubt it will be made public now.
So another planning oversight?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 03:46:13 PM
So the answer to thisis no?
You could have just said that without all the beating around the bush.
No. He did approve it OTR, among others whom took it back once there were threats against the organizer for; Kol Koreis against them, guarantees that they'll never get a job, or that their kids won't get in to schools.
I think focusing on how approved it was before, or if it was planned right is the real bush we're beating around.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 03:46:31 PM
So another planning oversight?

I understand you have 999 ways to defend the ban, but the fact that a kosher kumzitz with rabbinic participation and approval needs to check off all these boxes in order not to get banned is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 03:47:28 PM
Even if someone explicitly approved it beforehand, if it wasn't made public before the event (due to a lack of foresight or naivetť), I doubt it will be made public now.
So another planning oversight?
It WAS made public to those bored souls who met with the organizers asking them to shut it down, as well as with the other Rabanim involved.  They all knew what was on the table.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 03:47:43 PM
I understand you have 999 ways to defend the ban, but the fact that a kosher kumzitz with rabbinic participation needs to check off all these boxes in order not to get banned is part of the problem.
Where did I ever defend a ban? I don't disagree with the second part of what you wrote (assuming the facts are as you present them)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 03:50:00 PM
Where did I ever defend a ban? I don't disagree with the second part of what you wrote (assuming the facts are as you present them)

I guess I understood all this line of questioning as defense of the ban. I take it back.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 03:53:29 PM
Why should someone need to do all these things to appease kanoim and rabble rousers to avoid a ban? I expect better control from Rabonnim over these false kanoim, especially when they resort to low life tactics. Rabonnim should have control over these kanoim, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: simplicity on April 15, 2019, 03:58:58 PM
Why should someone need to do all these things to appease kanoim and rabble rousers to avoid a ban? I expect better control from Rabonnim over these false kanoim, especially when they resort to low life tactics. Rabonnim should have control over these kanoim, not the other way around.
what were the "low life" tactics?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
Why should someone need to do all these things to appease kanoim and rabble rousers to avoid a ban? I expect better control from Rabonnim over these false kanoim, especially when they resort to low life tactics. Rabonnim should have control over these kanoim, not the other way around.
He shouldn't, but keep in mind that the rabble-rouser will shop for his macha'a the same way some will shop for approval. That is what causes the need to have the i's dotted and the t's crossed beforehand. Once there is public approval it helps avoid the shopping.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 15, 2019, 04:01:26 PM
I guess I understood all this line of questioning as defense of the ban. I take it back.
I guess you missed this. No problem.
(FTR, there is nothing I have heard about this event which disturbs me and have no clue what the opposition to it was for. I don't know much about it at all other than what is posted here. I only see some poor planning)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 04:03:30 PM
what were the "low life" tactics?
No. He did approve it OTR, among others whom took it back once there were threats against the organizer for; Kol Koreis against them, guarantees that they'll never get a job, or that their kids won't get in to schools.
I think focusing on how approved it was before, or if it was planned right is the real bush we're beating around.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: grodnoking on April 15, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
I just wonder what they told them in order to get the signatures, because it definitely wasn't "They are having a kumzitz and divrai torah"
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 15, 2019, 04:34:42 PM
Any update on this story today?
Anymore protests planned?
Are any askanim trying to help out the bachrim and plan a different event?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 04:35:55 PM
I just wonder what they told them in order to get the signatures, because it definitely wasn't "They are having a kumzitz and divrai torah"
Who says they actually "got" their signatures.... ::)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: as2 on April 15, 2019, 04:39:36 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but all I've been thinking reading all this is, why the heck do you need anyone's approval to make an event? What is this, 3rd grade?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 04:44:50 PM


Are any askanim trying to help out the bachrim...?
No.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 15, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
There's a audio clip of a phone call going around on WhatsApp between one of the organizers and one of the destructors (for lack of better word)..
It'll shed alot of of light on the situation..

what's the best way to upload it?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 05:04:00 PM
There's a audio clip of a phone call going around on WhatsApp between one of the organizers and one of the destructors (for lack of better word)..
It'll shed alot of of light on the situation..

what's the best way to upload it?
Not sure that's easily doable. But I'm not so sure that should be publicized on such a platform.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: LoLo on April 15, 2019, 05:04:52 PM
Dropbox/Google drive
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 15, 2019, 05:07:10 PM
How long is the clip?
just summarize it
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 15, 2019, 05:14:10 PM
Not sure that's easily doable. But I'm not so sure that should be publicized on such a platform.
Your probably right..
How long is the clip?
just summarize it
It's a 13 min clip.. basically it seems there was meetings between the rabbis and organizers.. there was alot of different opinions among the different roshei yeshiva.. some were pressured to change they're mind some didn't.. the organizers made the event with his permission etc of his rosh yeshiva... The organizers weren't really given a chance to explain and find out what false information was being spread about the event..


What I don't get is this has been going on for years in EY with strong support of R Aron Leib and many other Roshei Yeshiva, what could have possibly been different especially with the attendance of R Yehuda Jacobs and R Slomovitz before he was pressured out of it...

ETA whoever wants you can pm me for the clip
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 05:32:38 PM
I can't confirm it's true, but in the recording he mentions that some rabanim who came out against it told him it's still a good thing even tho they caved to the pressure and signed.
This if true is the most disturbing part of the ordeal.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Mordyk on April 15, 2019, 05:45:43 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but all I've been thinking reading all this is, why the heck do you need anyone's approval to make an event? What is this, 3rd grade?
its lakewood. almost like third grade, just a bit worse. they think they can control peoples movements
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: joey89 on April 15, 2019, 05:47:45 PM
The more tyrannical rabbonim become the more likely it is that people stop listening to those rabbonim.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 05:52:55 PM
The more tyrannical rabbonim become the more likely it is that people stop listening to those rabbonim.
And other Rabanim. If they mess themselves over, great. But when they start destroying the respect for the deserving Rabanim, we are screwed.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: avromie7 on April 15, 2019, 05:59:58 PM
I can't confirm it's true, but in the recording he mentions that some rabanim who came out against it told him it's still a good thing even tho they caved to the pressure and signed.
This if true is the most disturbing part of the ordeal.
Unfortunately this happens all the time.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: joey89 on April 15, 2019, 06:01:36 PM
And other Rabanim. If they mess themselves over, great. But when they start destroying the respect for the deserving Rabanim, we are screwed.
Agreed, people stop respecting Rabbonim all together, they just lump everyone in to the same group.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 06:08:06 PM
Agreed, people stop respecting Rabbonim all together, they just lump everyone in to the same group.
As long as it's not a case of 98% of lawyers give the other 2% a bad name....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: as2 on April 15, 2019, 06:08:58 PM
its lakewood. almost like third grade, just a bit worse. they think they can control peoples movements
ALOL. And people wonder why lakewood is on my do not visit list.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: joey89 on April 15, 2019, 06:19:48 PM
As long as it's not a case of 98% of lawyers give the other 2% a bad name....
If/when Rabbonim have the same reputation as lawyers....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 06:25:58 PM
If/when Rabbonim have the same reputation as lawyers....
Now we know why the Baal Shem Tov, the master of Bitachon, couldn't take it....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 15, 2019, 06:31:29 PM
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 06:35:38 PM

looks nuts, but the quality is pretty bad, can you upload on a hosting site?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 15, 2019, 06:43:20 PM
looks nuts, but the quality is pretty bad, can you upload on a hosting site?
https://ibb.co/Y2w7jkn
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 15, 2019, 06:46:41 PM
ALOL. And people wonder why lakewood is on my do not visit list.
Who wonders?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 06:52:25 PM
https://ibb.co/Y2w7jkn
Lol. I thought it was real at first
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: as2 on April 15, 2019, 07:09:47 PM
Who wonders?
You'd be surprised...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 15, 2019, 07:47:38 PM
https://ibb.co/Y2w7jkn
Alol
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: zh cohen on April 15, 2019, 08:22:34 PM
I just wonder what they told them in order to get the signatures, because it definitely wasn't "They are having a kumzitz and divrai torah"

They wrote explicitly that they are signing because Rav Shmuel signed. Which raises the question, if they didn't do their own research, what are they adding by putting their signature?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: simplicity on April 15, 2019, 10:34:58 PM
The more tyrannical rabbonim become the more likely it is that people stop listening to those rabbonim.
isn't that what they originally told mordechai in the story of purim?!! every person has to have something they conform to, in politics there are parties [reps. dems. look whats happening with A.O.C.]. it has nothing to do with elementary school you have to get that chip off your shoulder and look a bit deeper into things.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 10:36:10 PM
Round 2 going on on Park Ave now. Sigh.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 15, 2019, 10:51:48 PM
Here is the Kol Koreh. I know that at least one of the yeshivos that were signatory felt that it was wrong to prevent the event from taking place but ended up signing nonetheless.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 15, 2019, 10:52:46 PM
Round 2 going on on Park Ave now. Sigh.
why there?
Is that where another one of the kanoyim live?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 15, 2019, 11:04:31 PM
I don't understand what they possibly could have told R' Shmuel to get him to sign that unless they straight out lied to him.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 15, 2019, 11:06:07 PM
why there?
Is that where another one of the kanoyim live?
Yeps
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 15, 2019, 11:07:51 PM
I don't understand what they possibly could have told R' Shmuel to get him to sign that unless they straight out lied to him.
They probably did.
Yeps
Who?
Here is the Kol Koreh. I know that at least one of the yeshivos that were signatory felt that it was wrong to prevent the event from taking place but ended up signing nonetheless.
Why? Aren't the Rabonnim in charge?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: LoLo on April 15, 2019, 11:12:07 PM
Rabbonim also have peer pressure.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 11:46:46 PM
Round 2 going on on Park Ave now. Sigh.

IYH there should be another protest every single night until the underlying issue is properly addressed and another even larger kumzitz takes its place.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 15, 2019, 11:49:51 PM
IYH there should be another protest every single night until the underlying issue is properly addressed and another even larger kumzitz takes its place.
The underlying cultural problem has to do with the idea that we need rabanim's "signatures" in order to figure out how to run our lives.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 15, 2019, 11:59:50 PM
The underlying cultural problem has to do with the idea that we need rabanim's "signatures" in order to figure out how to run our lives.

Agree, especially whenís thereís plenty of Rabbonim that were consulted from beforehand.
But the good part is that all holier-than-though askonim are on notice, people arenít gonna take their crap anymore. They canít hide behind signatures when 1000 bochurim will show up at their door.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 12:00:55 AM
They canít hide behind signatures when 1000 bochurim will show up at their door.
Lol, it's kinda scary but I'm not sure it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mlight on April 16, 2019, 12:02:03 AM
Anything going on? Other than two short clips on matzav.com no coverage whatsoever in contrast to last nights minute by minute...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 12:02:59 AM
I'm most concerned about what this is doi ng to the kids. This is not the upbringing they deserve, or the environment the need. There is no way is good for a young innocent kids brain.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
Anything going on? Other than two short clips on matzav.com no coverage whatsoever in contrast to last nights minute by minute...
The entire area is inaccessible, kids are awake for blocks, and his home and cars are being egged.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 16, 2019, 12:05:43 AM
Anything going on? Other than two short clips on matzav.com no coverage whatsoever in contrast to last nights minute by minute...
I'm  other sure if you noticed but the ywn article is gone...

Lnn and kol haolam WhatsApp status are going strong..
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 16, 2019, 12:07:58 AM
I'm most concerned about what this is doi ng to the kids. This is not the upbringing they deserve, or the environment the need. There is no way is good for a young innocent kids brain.

That is the irony of the protests, it might not be good for them but their alternatives arenít any better.
But at least theyíre fighting for a better future for thousands of others, and they will accomplish it.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: zh cohen on April 16, 2019, 12:09:02 AM
Here is the Kol Koreh. I know that at least one of the yeshivos that were signatory felt that it was wrong to prevent the event from taking place but ended up signing nonetheless.

I just noticed the pasuk they used in the date, and I'm having a hard time not coming to the conclusion that this is an elaborate troll...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 16, 2019, 12:12:08 AM
I'm  other sure if you noticed but the ywn article is gone...

Lnn and kol haolam WhatsApp status are going strong..
Isnít LNN run by the guy that organized the kumzitz?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 12:12:32 AM
Isnít LNN run by the guy that organized the kumzitz?
Negative
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: as2 on April 16, 2019, 12:13:26 AM
Anything going on? Other than two short clips on matzav.com no coverage whatsoever in contrast to last nights minute by minute...
They're egging a house, maybe more than one. Disrupting traffic as well.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 16, 2019, 12:17:39 AM
Hopefully this will force the roshei yeshivos/menahilim/askanim to get involved
They donít need to necessarily backtrack, but they need to come up with ideas for kosher entertainment/ outlets
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Tuna Baygel on April 16, 2019, 12:17:56 AM
They're egging a house, maybe more than one. Disrupting traffic as well.
I feel for the family
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Jellybelly on April 16, 2019, 12:18:45 AM
I feel for the family
is it a random house or is he the guy that shut it down?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Tuna Baygel on April 16, 2019, 12:21:00 AM
is it a random house or is he the guy that shut it down?
??
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mlight on April 16, 2019, 12:22:54 AM
....and matzavs article is gone!
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 16, 2019, 12:33:04 AM

the guy that shut it down

^^ This
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 12:40:27 AM
Hopefully this will force the roshei yeshivos/menahilim/askanim to get involved
They donít need to necessarily backtrack, but they need to come up with ideas for kosher entertainment/ outlets
Nobody has to do anything. Rabanim have to stop signing every stupid little thing that's shoved in their face, there's a reason that people like R' Meir Stern's haskama means a lot, he never signs anything . You're not going to get people to stop taking these kol koreis seriously, especially in lakewood, what you can do however is try to get rabanim to stop cheapening the value of their haskama by giving it to every dumb thing that some "askan" decided was of the utmost importance for the future of klal yisroel.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 16, 2019, 12:47:17 AM
please add recycle feature
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=52022

Would I do it? No.
Do I care if someone else does it? No. 
#LiveAndLetLive
You're right. Time for Jihad!

I was brought up that one of the yesodos of yiddishkeit is a halacha in SH'A

בכל דרכיך דעהו (https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.231?lang=bi)

וכן בכל מה שיהנה בעולם הזה, לא יכוון להנאתו אלא לעבודת הבורא יתברך, כדכתיב: "בכל דרכיך דעהו" (משלי ג ו), ואמרו חכמים: כל מעשיך יהיו לשם שמיים, שאפילו דברים של רשות, כגון האכילה והשתיה וההליכה והישיבה והקימה והתשמיש
והשיחה וכל צרכי גופך, יהיו כולם לעבודת בוראך

it is 100% kosher to enjoy yourself as long you have the right intentions and this event was nothing short of it

of course ולואי יתפלל אדם כל היום כולו (https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.21a.13?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=bi)]
but dont forget וחי בהם ולא שימות בהם (https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.18.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en)

now this אדם חשוב feels that he could sit and learn all day, good for you and I wish everyone would be that way, but how could you asur something that does not have a כי הוא זה against halcha and these boys aren't in your jurisdiction?

the only logic that can can justify is if you come with a precedence that I control the community and hey they didn't consult with me I'll get you back.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 16, 2019, 12:56:03 AM
please add recycle feature
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=52022

I said elsewhere - we need to make a shabbos march against these bochrim, better as soon as possible before they stop keeping shabbos...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 02:08:43 AM
Another situation planned for tomorrow already. Sigh sigh....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Proisrael on April 16, 2019, 02:14:07 AM
How was a Kumsitz cancelled but Chol Hamoed trips (Blackbeards cave, Funtime America, Seaside Heights etc...) that raise money for tzedaka is OK?!?! What the heck has happened to the Lakewood of the 1990's it is really sad what is going on nowadays. If only Jersey was a more RED state we would not let in all the refugees from NY!
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 02:36:56 AM
Another situation planned for tomorrow already. Sigh sigh....

The first night the boys protesting in the streets had the sympathy of many; by now itís grow up and stop acting like overgrown toddlers. You made your point. Move on. Egging cars the next night and planning further  ďspontaneousĒ demonstrations is just juvenile and brings into question the maturity level of those who are still participating.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 02:38:23 AM


The first night the boys protesting in the streets had the sympathy of many; by now itís grow up and stop acting like overgrown toddlers. You made your point. Move on. Egging cars the next night and planning further  ďspontaneousĒ demonstrations is just juvenile and brings into question the maturity level of those who are still participating.
Uh you may not be understanding the age of these kids for starters.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 02:52:34 AM
Uh you may not be understanding the age of these kids for starters.

You mean they ARE toddlers?

IME there are two different age groups.Some people are 25 years old. Others are 4 year olds with 21 years experience.....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 02:53:29 AM
You mean they ARE toddlers?
Practically
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: User6669 on April 16, 2019, 03:50:36 AM
Letter sent to the Police by a 12 year old boy...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Proisrael on April 16, 2019, 04:14:45 AM
Letter sent to the Police by a 12 year old boy...

This letter is a bigger chillul hashem then the whole protest.....My 8 year old spells better.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: gingyguy on April 16, 2019, 07:27:36 AM
I was always taught that two wrongs don't a right make. While these so called kanoim are wrong they probably were not oiver any issurim. That's not something you can say about these bachurim protesting.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 16, 2019, 08:24:41 AM
I was always taught that two wrongs don't a right make. While these so called kanoim are wrong they probably were not oiver any issurim. That's not something you can say about these bachurim protesting.

Not sure you should be equating kids to to grown men, or ignore who started this mess.
But besides that, donít forget:

-Lying
-Lashon hara
-Rechilus
-Potential rodfim
-Making a mockery of the Torah

This list can go on and on.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: gingyguy on April 16, 2019, 08:30:54 AM
Not sure you should be equating kids to to grown men, or ignore who started this mess.
But besides that, donít forget:

-Lying
-Lashon hara
-Rechilus
-Potential rodfim
-Making a mockery of the Torah

This list can go on and on.
since I donít know what they said , I donít know if they were or were not oiver  on the issurim you mentioned. It wasnt a question of equating, nor does it matter who "started up ".  I just donít understand how anyone can condone what happened at the protests . I would have pitied my younger self had I been caught by my parents at such a protest.
 I specifically said 2 wrongs donít make a right.
And just out of curiosity how do you get to rodfim?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 16, 2019, 08:35:36 AM
since I donít know what they said , I donít know if they were or were not lived on the issurim you mentioned. It wasnt a question of equating, I just donít understand how anyone can condone what happened at the protests . I specifically said 2 wrongs donít make a right.

I say let boys be boys, better sooner than later. While wouldnít advise anyone to do any ďissurimĒ (not sure what exactly youíre referring to...Gezel sheina?) I do think the results are a huge net positive.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 08:39:18 AM
I say let boys be boys, better sooner than later. While wouldnít advise anyone to do any ďissurimĒ (not sure what exactly youíre referring to...Gezel sheina?) I do think the results are a huge net positive.
Egging houses and cars is a hezeik
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: gingyguy on April 16, 2019, 08:40:20 AM
I say let boys be boys, better sooner than later. While wouldnít advise anyone to do any ďissurimĒ (not sure what exactly youíre referring to...Gezel sheina?) I do think the results are a huge net positive.
Chinuch does not allow boys to be boys .  And yes gezel  sheina for hours. Is egging houses And cars mutar? chillel hashem?
Ends do not justify the means.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 16, 2019, 09:14:57 AM
Aaaaaaand YWN has officially caved to censorship and remove the news item.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1714627/chaos-in-lakewood-planned-kosher-event-for-yeshiva-bochrim-canceled-at-last-minute-hundreds-of-bochrim-protest-arrests-made.html

= page not found.

While my initial reaction to the page being removed was similar, after some reflection I think it was actually mature and responsible for them to remove it. Honestly, we who live in Lakewood and are dealing with a lot of people who are not exactly friendly trying to find any ammunition to use against us, do not need this out there, especially as it was relatively under reported in outlets such as the APP. Vehamayvin yavin......
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 16, 2019, 09:24:12 AM
And yes gezel  sheina for hours.
What is that?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: gingyguy on April 16, 2019, 09:24:54 AM
What is that?
stealing people's sleep
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 16, 2019, 09:30:03 AM
I say let boys be boys, better sooner than later. While wouldnít advise anyone to do any ďissurimĒ (not sure what exactly youíre referring to...Gezel sheina?) I do think the results are a huge net positive.
IMHO the worst part of this is the bringing of EY type behavior and mentality (hafgana and take to the streets in protest of anything I don't agree with) imported to America. I remember my rabbeim telling us (before a protest organized by the Agudah in the late 90s) that for us protesting in the streets is an absolute last resort (especially in galus). Unfortunately there is a whole generation growing up feeling entitled, spoiled, and immature enough to believe that if I have an issue it is my right to be "triggered" and act out against whomever "wronged me" (whether they were actually wronged or not is not something I am discussing). #sad
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 16, 2019, 09:30:27 AM
Chinuch does not allow boys to be boys .  And yes gezel  sheina for hours. Is egging houses And cars mutar? chillel hashem?
Ends do not justify the means.
+1000
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 09:45:29 AM
Where the heck are the parents of these kids?? Especially if, as insinuated earlier, many of these boys are young teens.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: grodnoking on April 16, 2019, 09:47:40 AM
Where the heck are the parents of these kids?? Especially if, as insinuated earlier, many of these boys are young teens.
The kids where "just going to shul to learn".
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 10:20:27 AM
Not sure you should be equating kids to to grown men, or ignore who started this mess.
But besides that, donít forget:

-Lying
-Lashon hara
-Rechilus
-Potential rodfim
-Making a mockery of the Torah

This list can go on and on.
This.
When they are faced with this I wouldn't be so quick to judge, these people are disgusting people, and they know it. I'm surprised more damage hasn't been done with the amount of anger these kids should be having. This man is a sick man without a life, and he clearly thinks impacting others lives negatively will make him feel good.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: TimT on April 16, 2019, 11:17:30 AM
and his home and cars are being egged.
Disgusting. Is this what weíve stooped to ?
Are these the bochurim that are sitting shteiging in yeshiva all year ?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 11:20:44 AM
Disgusting. Is this what weíve stooped to ?
Uh you may not be understanding the age of these kids for starters.
besides
When they are faced with this I wouldn't be so quick to judge, these people are disgusting people, and they know it. I'm surprised more damage hasn't been done with the amount of anger these kids should be having. This man is a sick man without a life, and he clearly thinks impacting others lives negatively will make him feel good.

Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 11:28:35 AM

-Potential rodfim

How did you get to this?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 11:29:15 AM
This.
When they are faced with this I wouldn't be so quick to judge, these people are disgusting people, and they know it. I'm surprised more damage hasn't been done with the amount of anger these kids should be having. This man is a sick man without a life, and he clearly thinks impacting others lives negatively will make him feel good.
These are probably the same people who are regularly making kashrus tumults too.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: knowitall on April 16, 2019, 11:33:39 AM
On a somewhat related note, is it currently ďassurĒ to go to a blue claws game? Meaning will going to a game get your kids kicked out of school?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 11:36:06 AM
The first night the boys protesting in the streets had the sympathy of many; by now itís grow up and stop acting like overgrown toddlers. You made your point. Move on. Egging cars the next night and planning further  ďspontaneousĒ demonstrations is just juvenile and brings into question the maturity level of those who are still participating.
Dude, you didn't just miss the boat, you mistook America for the Indies.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 11:37:17 AM
IMHO the worst part of this is the bringing of EY type behavior and mentality (hafgana and take to the streets in protest of anything I don't agree with) imported to America. I remember my rabbeim telling us (before a protest organized by the Agudah in the late 90s) that for us protesting in the streets is an absolute last resort (especially in galus). Unfortunately there is a whole generation growing up feeling entitled, spoiled, and immature enough to believe that if I have an issue it is my right to be "triggered" and act out against whomever "wronged me" (whether they were actually wronged or not is not something I am discussing). #sad
It's an outcome of the "signature" culture that is even more prevelant in EY than it is here. The two things go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: grodnoking on April 16, 2019, 11:38:06 AM
How did you get to this?
Easy:

Kumzits gets cancelled - goes to iPlayAmerica instead - meets a friend from elementary school who is not the best person to be around - becomes friends with him because he's mad at the establishment (but obviously doesn't think that the friend will have that bad of a effect on him) - slowly but surely they go lower and lower and he becomes part of that crowd - after sometime trys weed - some friends are doing other drugs - he trys other drugs - he gets addicted after some time - then the worst happens c"v.

That's how.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 11:39:33 AM
Easy:

Kumzits gets cancelled - goes to iPlayAmerica instead - meets a friend from elementary school who is not the best person to be around - becomes friends with him because he's mad at the establishment (but obviously doesn't think that the friend will have that bad of a effect on him) - slowly but surely they go lower and lower and he becomes part of that crowd - after sometime trys weed - some friends are doing other drugs - he trys other drugs - he gets addicted after some time - then the worst happens c"v.

That's how.
Let's just call that a long stretch rather than easy.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 11:40:14 AM
Easy:

Kumzits gets cancelled - goes to iPlayAmerica instead - meets a friend from elementary school who is not the best person to be around - becomes friends with him because he's mad at the establishment (but obviously doesn't think that the friend will have that bad of a effect on him) - slowly but surely they go lower and lower and he becomes part of that crowd - after sometime trys weed - some friends are doing other drugs - he trys other drugs - he gets addicted after some time - then the worst happens c"v.

That's how.
Quite the stretch there but you forgot mixed dancing, that's the real kuntz.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Something Fishy on April 16, 2019, 11:41:01 AM
Easy:

Kumzits gets cancelled - goes to iPlayAmerica instead - meets a friend from elementary school who is not the best person to be around - becomes friends with him because he's mad at the establishment (but obviously doesn't think that the friend will have that bad of a effect on him) - slowly but surely they go lower and lower and he becomes part of that crowd - after sometime trys weed - some friends are doing other drugs - he trys other drugs - he gets addicted after some time - then the worst happens c"v.

That's how.

(https://assets.amuniversal.com/f297d550deb801317193005056a9545d)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: stooges44 on April 16, 2019, 11:46:05 AM
Easy:

Kumzits gets cancelled - goes to iPlayAmerica instead - meets a friend from elementary school who is not the best person to be around - becomes friends with him because he's mad at the establishment (but obviously doesn't think that the friend will have that bad of a effect on him) - slowly but surely they go lower and lower and he becomes part of that crowd - after sometime trys weed - some friends are doing other drugs - he trys other drugs - he gets addicted after some time - then the worst happens c"v.

That's how.

Let's just call that a long stretch rather than easy.

Yes that is a long stretch and if that actually manifests then that I imagine a lot more is going on then just a cancelled event.

IMHO one of the worst parts of this whole episode is all the brewing hatred, finger pointing, he said/she said, and other non-constructive talk that will dominate all of these peoples yom tov meals. All the lashon hora that has and will be spread over the next 2 weeks is frightening.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: ExGingi on April 16, 2019, 11:50:26 AM
There's a audio clip of a phone call going around on WhatsApp between one of the organizers and one of the destructors (for lack of better word)..
It'll shed alot of of light on the situation..

what's the best way to upload it?
https://www.tunestotube.com/
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 11:50:50 AM
Yes that is a long stretch and if that actually manifests then that I imagine a lot more is going on then just a cancelled event.

IMHO one of the worst parts of this whole episode is all the brewing hatred, finger pointing, he said/she said, and other non-constructive talk that will dominate all of these peoples yom tov meals. All the lashon hora that has and will be spread over the next 2 weeks is frightening.
Welcome to the real world where actions have unintended consequences, think twice before you do things.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 11:51:42 AM
(https://assets.amuniversal.com/f297d550deb801317193005056a9545d)
There  is a Calvin and Hobbes strip for every situation in life
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 12:01:55 PM
Yes that is a long stretch and if that actually manifests then that I imagine a lot more is going on then just a cancelled event.

IMHO one of the worst parts of this whole episode is all the brewing hatred, finger pointing, he said/she said, and other non-constructive talk that will dominate all of these peoples yom tov meals. All the lashon hora that has and will be spread over the next 2 weeks is frightening.

This is why I basically quashed all conversation about it in my house. The boys seeing parents talking the way some are on this forum is much more detrimental than what actually happened. The tumult about it is the bigger problem.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 12:05:56 PM
Again, I think one of the greatest issues not discussed is why don't the parents have control over these kids? Or do they condone it?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: joey89 on April 16, 2019, 12:07:58 PM
Again, I think one of the greatest issues not discussed is why don't the parents have control over these kids? Or do they condone it?
It could be the parents are also exasperated by the kanoim. So they will turn a blind eye.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 12:12:00 PM
It could be the parents are also exasperated by the kanoim. So they will turn a blind eye.
That is a bigger issue. Bad enough that kids think it's ok to riot and damage property, worse if adults are ok with it, no matter the justification.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: joey89 on April 16, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
That is a bigger issue. Bad enough that kids think it's ok to riot and damage property, worse if adults are ok with it, no matter the justification.
Not arguing the point. Human emotions cause people to act in ways that can be detrimental.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: avromie7 on April 16, 2019, 12:30:21 PM
That is a bigger issue. Bad enough that kids think it's ok to riot and damage property, worse if adults are ok with it, no matter the justification.
The overwhelming majority (especially the first night) were not rioting or damaging property. I don't see an issue with adults being OK with their kids peacefully protesting in front of this guys house.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 12:32:57 PM
The overwhelming majority (especially the first night) were not rioting or damaging property. I don't see an issue with adults being OK with their kids peacefully protesting in front of this guys house.
I do. They were not only protesting the person who instigated it but rather also the rabbonim. That is not an appropriate way to do things.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 12:35:46 PM
I do. They were not only protesting the person who instigated it but rather also the rabbonim. That is not an appropriate way to do things.
Has anything else worked?
The protesting rabanim is the unfortunate outcome they caused with this, which is the worst of it IMHO.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 12:37:33 PM
Has anything else worked?
The protesting rabanim is the unfortunate outcome they caused with this, which is the worst of it IMHO.
That changes nothing about what I wrote.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: ExGingi on April 16, 2019, 12:39:57 PM
This is why I basically quashed all conversation about it in my house. The boys seeing parents talking the way some are on this forum is much more detrimental than what actually happened. The tumult about it is the bigger problem.

+100000000

Unfortunately, in almost every Jewish community there is some form of public מחלוקת. IMNSHO allowing involvement, even if only casually talking about it, is simply "playing with fire" and putting your kids at risk. Sometimes it is challenging, but for some reason נורא עלילה על בני אדם decided to put these kinds of challenges in our way at the time of עקבתא דמשיחא. However, we should remember that אין הקב"ה בא בטרוניא עם בריותיו, and it IS possible to overcome this נסיון.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 12:41:04 PM
+100000000

Unfortunately, in almost every Jewish community there is some form of public מחלוקת. IMNSHO allowing involvement, even if only casually talking about it, is simply "playing with fire" and putting your kids at risk. Sometimes it is challenging, but for some reason נורא עלילה על בני אדם decided to put these kinds of challenges in our way at the time of עקבתא דמשיחא. However, we should remember that אין הקב"ה בא בטרוניא עם בריותיו, and it IS possible to overcome this נסיון.
Thank you, very well said.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 16, 2019, 12:48:58 PM
That changes nothing about what I wrote.
+1000
You can't really blame kids and teens for acting out when their passions and sensitivities are inflamed, they are by nature too underdeveloped as of yet emotionally and logically to expect them to respond appropriately. That's where the adults, parents and teachers, are meant to step in and guide them. Kids coming out of this episode with the idea that this was the appropriate response to something they don't like, and that maybe it even has the tacit approval of some adults, is the worst possible outcome from a maturation and educational perspective.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 12:58:53 PM
+100000000

Unfortunately, in almost every Jewish community there is some form of public מחלוקת. IMNSHO allowing involvement, even if only casually talking about it, is simply "playing with fire" and putting your kids at risk. Sometimes it is challenging, but for some reason נורא עלילה על בני אדם decided to put these kinds of challenges in our way at the time of עקבתא דמשיחא. However, we should remember that אין הקב"ה בא בטרוניא עם בריותיו, and it IS possible to overcome this נסיון.
Which brings us to the story of מרים בת בילגה which seems very relevant here.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 01:03:59 PM
That changes nothing about what I wrote.
Just saying I agree, the outcome us horrendous, and it's the chinnuch of the rest of the kids taking the big L
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 03:32:35 PM
Let's see how this plays out
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
Let's see how this plays out
Hopefully they planned this one better.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yitzgar on April 16, 2019, 03:36:42 PM
Any haskamos for this one?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 16, 2019, 03:48:27 PM
just got this text
Due to the cancellation there will be freilach ,shira, shmueli and daskal 2morro night in willamsburg. The doors open at 645 the event starts at 730.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 16, 2019, 03:49:10 PM
Hopefully they planned this one better.
I think the plan is not to bother with Haskomos and see what happens
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
I think the plan is not to bother with Haskomos and see what happens
So it is do the same thing and expect different results? Says a lot about the organizers.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 16, 2019, 03:57:44 PM
So it is do the same thing and expect different results? Says a lot about the organizers.
Maybe someone else (chasidim?) took over?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 16, 2019, 04:00:46 PM
Maybe someone else (chasidim?) took over?
So it is do the same thing and expect different results? Says a lot about the organizers.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 04:03:12 PM

He's saying people who won't cave to the pressure (of third party organizations who dictates what should happen in this town, and who have Roshei Yeshivos scared of them)

Also there isn't much time left till this event begins
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 16, 2019, 04:12:39 PM

Maybe someone who cant be threatened and advertisers that cant be threatened
DW always says her Sem mechaneches threatened to lie on the steps of Touro (back in the day that was a thing) so that her girls wont go
maybe mr forest park and mr park ave need to do that tonight
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: zh cohen on April 16, 2019, 07:35:08 PM
Maybe someone who cant be threatened and advertisers that cant be threatened

The hall doesn't have a hashgacha that can be pulled?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 07:36:38 PM
The hall doesn't have a hashgacha that can be pulled?
I highly doubt the halls owner would go against these people TBH. So he may be blind in this, also who knows if these hooligans have a say in that field atm.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Afrages6 on April 16, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
Apparently RSBS is speaking tonight. Anyone have a chopper for me to take to Lakewood?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 16, 2019, 08:11:36 PM
Apparently RSBS is speaking tonight. Anyone have a chopper for me to take to Lakewood?
Who is that?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Definitions on April 16, 2019, 08:14:16 PM
Who is that?
First name that came to my head is r shalom ber sorotzkin. I don't know for sure though
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 08:16:42 PM
I highly doubt the halls owner would go against these people TBH. So he may be blind in this, also who knows if these hooligans have a say in that field atm.

I believe the hall owner is a non jew
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 08:18:16 PM
I believe the hall owner is a non jew
False
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 08:21:44 PM
False
Didnít it change hands several years back?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 16, 2019, 08:26:16 PM
Apparently RSBS is speaking tonight. Anyone have a chopper for me to take to Lakewood?
Reb Shimon Ben Shetach?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dan on April 16, 2019, 08:26:54 PM
So where's @Askan ?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 16, 2019, 08:28:51 PM
Reb Shimon Ben Shetach?
ZY"A.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 16, 2019, 08:42:58 PM
A major meeting of gedolei roshei yeshiva has just ended, and despite all threats, the Rabbonim have decided that the event should take place. in facet, Rav Malkiel Kotler will 100% be attending at around 9:30. All Bochrim are asked to please show proper Kavod and put all bad feelings behind them. Reb Mendly Slomowitz is going to come also, as well as the other few Roshei Yeshiva that openly are going to state that they regret what they did which caused terrible chillul hashem. Again, all Bochrim should please behave and show proper kavod to the Gedolim when they arrive. Lets make a kiddush haehm tonight!

#whatsapp Repost
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 08:45:08 PM
A major meeting of gedolei roshei yeshiva has just ended, and despite all threats, the Rabbonim have decided that the event should take place. in facet, Rav Malkiel Kotler will 100% be attending at around 9:30. All Bochrim are asked to please show proper Kavod and put all bad feelings behind them. Reb Mendly Slomowitz is going to come also, as well as the other few Roshei Yeshiva that openly are going to state that they regret what they did which caused terrible chillul hashem. Again, all Bochrim should please behave and show proper kavod to the Gedolim when they arrive. Lets make a kiddush haehm tonight!

#whatsapp Repost

Baloney. Iíll eat my hat
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 16, 2019, 08:47:27 PM
Shalom Ber Sorotzkin speaking
It's terrible resolution
https://ibb.co/mFYhHPF
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 16, 2019, 08:56:02 PM
Shalom Ber Sorotzkin speaking
It's terrible resolution
https://ibb.co/mFYhHPF

Boycott El Al, not the concert
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Definitions on April 16, 2019, 09:21:01 PM
A major meeting of gedolei roshei yeshiva has just ended, and despite all threats, the Rabbonim have decided that the event should take place. in facet, Rav Malkiel Kotler will 100% be attending at around 9:30. All Bochrim are asked to please show proper Kavod and put all bad feelings behind them. Reb Mendly Slomowitz is going to come also, as well as the other few Roshei Yeshiva that openly are going to state that they regret what they did which caused terrible chillul hashem. Again, all Bochrim should please behave and show proper kavod to the Gedolim when they arrive. Lets make a kiddush haehm tonight!

#whatsapp Repost
I guess we'll find out in a half hour if it's true. Regardless it's definitely something along these lines
Maybe he agreed to speak there only because he knew that if he wouldn't the matzav there would be worse.
and I don't like it.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 09:26:32 PM
So where's @Askan ?
MCing.
It's been a rough few days
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 16, 2019, 09:46:12 PM
Shalom Ber Sorotzkin speaking
It's terrible resolution
https://ibb.co/mFYhHPF
Wow. Very interesting. What did he speak about?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 16, 2019, 10:02:54 PM
Wow. Very interesting. What did he speak about?
The short clip I heard was divrie chizuk for bochurim...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on April 16, 2019, 11:27:32 PM
So it is do the same thing and expect different results? Says a lot about the organizers.
This didn't age well (unless they got haskomos, which weirdly is still unclear).
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 11:42:30 PM
This didn't age well (unless they got haskomos, which weirdly is still unclear).
It's quite clear, they didn't.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on April 16, 2019, 11:47:59 PM

It's quite clear, they didn't.
What about this? http://matzav.com/fake-news-made-up-robo-call-spreads-false-info-about-tonights-lakewood-kumzitz/ (http://matzav.com/fake-news-made-up-robo-call-spreads-false-info-about-tonights-lakewood-kumzitz/)
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 16, 2019, 11:48:09 PM
Can we tie this in to the take back Lakewood thread? ;D
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 16, 2019, 11:50:42 PM
What about this? http://matzav.com/fake-news-made-up-robo-call-spreads-false-info-about-tonights-lakewood-kumzitz/ (http://matzav.com/fake-news-made-up-robo-call-spreads-false-info-about-tonights-lakewood-kumzitz/)
That may be true, but they never asked them about it, and they never backed it.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2019, 12:28:37 AM
This didn't age well (unless they got haskomos, which weirdly is still unclear).
It is as applicable now as then.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 17, 2019, 01:31:03 AM
Egging houses and cars is a hezeik

Most didnít do that, and was there any permanent damage?
Donít agree with the idea, but hey, canít argue with results...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 17, 2019, 01:35:50 AM
Let's just call that a long stretch rather than easy.

Very long stretch, but are there statistics for people pushed OTD and are now spiritually or physically dead? From anecdotal evidence there seems to be plenty of cases.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 17, 2019, 08:38:32 AM
Most didnít do that, and was there any permanent damage?
Donít agree with the idea, but hey, canít argue with results...
-1
I don't think Judaism believes in the ends justifying the means.....
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: tzifanya54 on April 17, 2019, 09:13:01 AM
If I were a Lakewood Bochur my take away is let rabanim ban whatever they want, if we donít like it we will protest and get our way. Which is terrible, on so many levels.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: avromie7 on April 17, 2019, 09:21:32 AM
If I were a Lakewood Bochur my take away is let rabanim ban whatever a few "kanoim" want, if we donít like it we will protest and get our way. Which is terrible, on so many levels.
FTFY
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: mmgfarb on April 17, 2019, 09:21:41 AM
If I were a Lakewood Bochur my take away is let rabanim ban whatever they want, if we donít like it we will protest and get our way. Which is terrible, on so many levels.
And that's why you're not a lakewood bochur.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: tzifanya54 on April 17, 2019, 09:25:30 AM
FTFY
Not arguing at all on the merits of the original cancellation, it could have been dead wrong. Bottom line is I am 15-19 years old and I saw a paper that had a lot of Rabanim/Roshei Yeshivas signatures banning something. We didnít like it so we banned together three some eggs made some noise, now the party is back on.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: tzifanya54 on April 17, 2019, 09:26:59 AM
And that's why you're not a lakewood bochur.
Do you disagree, that this isnít the average brochurs take away from this situation? If yes, why?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: grodnoking on April 17, 2019, 10:04:07 AM
Let's just call that a long stretch rather than easy.
I know a person who was effected by someone who had no right to be making certain decisions (but he was able to because of Lakewoods power structure), when this person was still a young bachor. This person had a long struggle of many years after that and b"h didnt end up like my cause and effect list. But he most definitely isn't a main stream guy because of what happened. From what I know, this someone made same decisions about other kids and I dont know any of them, but I'm sure some where not as lucky as the one I know.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yelped on April 17, 2019, 10:25:25 AM
-1
I don't think Judaism believes in the ends justifying the means.....
Source? Depends on what the end is and what the means are. Concept of Aveira Lishma. Question if you're allowed to do a small averira to save someone from a big Aveira. Pikuach Nefesh (the end) turning the issur (means) into a mitzvah, etc.

My point being you can't make a point blank statement that Judaism doesn't believe in the end justifying the means.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Dawie on April 17, 2019, 10:44:27 AM
The short clip I heard was divrie chizuk for bochurim...
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/04/lnn-video-r-sholom-ber-sorotzkin-at.html
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: iwlw2 on April 17, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
Source? Depends on what the end is and what the means are. Concept of Aveira Lishma. Question if you're allowed to do a small averira to save someone from a big Aveira. Pikuach Nefesh (the end) turning the issur (means) into a mitzvah, etc.

My point being you can't make a point blank statement that Judaism doesn't believe in the end justifying the means.
You are right, I should have written "generally does not believe in the end justifying the means". That being said, I don't think that this qualified as Pikuach nefesh (despite a previous poster's attempt to wave a tale of how this could lead to that), we generally say אין אומרים לאדם חטא בשביל שיזכה חבירך even if there would have been a clear cut aveira gedola you were saving someone from here, and I really don't think you want to play around with the concept of עבירה לשמה, it is quite xomplex and beyond the scope of this forum to get into, and needless to say I think we can agree it a)does not apply here, and b) even if it did it is doubtful that there was much לשמה involved here.......
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Yard sale on April 17, 2019, 08:12:22 PM
http://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/802_3725_2.mp3

Rav Uren Reich. Very powerful kedarko.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on April 17, 2019, 09:21:33 PM
http://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/802_3725_2.mp3 (http://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/802_3725_2.mp3)

Rav Uren Reich. Very powerful kedarko.
One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true? Any shmoe probably went ahead and did this. Why make out the organizers as servants of the yetzer horah? And that this whole thing was one 'egel hazahav'?
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 17, 2019, 09:26:01 PM


One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true?
NAFAIK. Not their style...
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: Eliyohu on April 17, 2019, 11:14:03 PM
One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true? Any shmoe probably went ahead and did this. Why make out the organizers as servants of the yetzer horah? And that this whole thing was one 'egel hazahav'?
Highly unlikely.

He was very upset about the Maacha and the cops as well etc.. from what I hear it only became a matzav/ the crowd grew exponentially after the cops were called (by a certain person והמבין יבין)
..besides what makes him think the organizers of the event arranged the kumzitz... (It seemed from the videos like a mob mentality more then anything else not something you can blame a specific person..)

Being that there were differences of opinions and even changed opinions reportedly because of pressure, a real explanation is due.. not just a "you gotta believe" especially today that sadly Rabbinim are fed all sorts of information...

His explanation that in the future it's gonna be a mixed concert...

Regarding that such a thing has never happened in Klal Yisroel.. um for the last (10?) years this has been going on in EY under the name kumzing or kumtantz.. iiuc with the bracha and support of R Aron Leib..  (besides for R Meilich Beiderman, R Mota Frank's kumzitzin)

Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yuneeq on April 18, 2019, 01:50:15 AM
-1
I don't think Judaism believes in the ends justifying the means.....

I donít condone anyone throwing eggs, but if 200 people protest and 3 of them end up throwing eggs, I wouldnít discourage the 197 peaceful protestors from protesting. Itís not their problem that a couple of guys decide to do something stupid. As far as each of the 197 people are concerned, they protested peacefully and it lead to good results. Canít blame them for the action of a few.
Title: Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
Post by: yesitsme on April 18, 2019, 02:05:16 AM