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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ExGingi on July 06, 2019, 10:43:52 PM

Title: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2019, 10:43:52 PM
http://beismoshiachmagazine.org/articles/chabadnikim-know-everything-they-have-an-explanation-for-eve.html
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 06, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
http://beismoshiachmagazine.org/articles/chabadnikim-know-everything-they-have-an-explanation-for-eve.html

Undiluted kefira
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2019, 11:58:52 PM
Undiluted kefira
Just because you say so?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: joey89 on July 07, 2019, 12:24:11 AM
How does one mute a thread for 24 hours
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 07, 2019, 12:25:03 AM
Just because you say so?

Its kefirah. Take my word for it.

Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism

But it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 07, 2019, 12:39:06 AM
Can you post the text?
filter blocks it
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2019, 12:42:58 AM
Its kefirah. Take my word for it.

Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism

But it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila
I take the Rebbe's word.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 07, 2019, 12:48:34 AM
Its kefirah. Take my word for it.
lol
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 07, 2019, 12:50:38 AM
Can you post the text?
filter blocks it
Quote
An interview with R Zushe Posner is not a conventional interview. Its more like a farbrengen-style conversation. When R Zushe shares whats on his mind and heart, he lays it out on the table, even if what he says might annoy someone. Its not that hes looking to anger anyone. Its that it hurts him and his sometimes-shocking style is the way he chooses to cry out, as the Rebbe says, When it hurts, you cry out.

This might be the reason he is the perfect person for this interview, held days before Gimmel Tammuz, a day that shakes up every Chassid, a day of supernatural occurrences, from Be silent, sun in Givon in the time of Yehoshua, and down to our days, the hechste tzait on the one hand, and an utterly unconventional situation on the other hand.

From the deepest recesses of his heart and soul he screamed and still screams, using the same words, for fifty years. Tmimim who learned by him in Lud and Bnei Brak in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, heard and hear the very same words.

He asked and asks that we care about the Rebbe, that the Rebbes state should be something that we care about, that we understand that we exist for the Rebbe and the Rebbe does not need us, but he wants us. That we put our head into the maamer and not the maamer into our head. To him, the Rebbe is the Rebbe, and not, G-d forbid, some tzaddik, kadosh and tahor.

You dont understand? That is also part of the multifaceted personality of R Zushe. A Lubavitcher knows that he does not understand everything and he doesnt have an answer to every question.

What is he himself? Im a Lubavitcher; not a Chabadnik.

A REBBE WITHOUT A BODY IMPOSSIBLE

How are you, R Zushe?

There are a few times a year that I am completely crazy. One of them is now, the days before Gimmel Tammuz. I often ask people, Tzimtzum kpeshuto (literal) or tzimtzum lo kpeshuto (not literal)? In Chassidus it explains that the tzimtzum (constriction) that Hashem made in the Ohr Ein Sof (Infinite Light) so there would be room for worlds, is not a literal tzimtzum; it just seems that way to created beings.

I get a variety of answers, including clever wisecracks and plays on the words, but they are afraid to say what it says in Tanya, that tzimtzum lav kpeshuto. Why? Because then I will ask, and what happened on Gimmel Tammuz? He will have to say, I dont know! And a Chabadnik who grew up on chochma, bina, and daas, cannot say he does not know!

Tell me, is it possible to live in a world without a physical Rebbe? Because if its possible, if I dont need a Rebbe in a physical body, then I have Moshe Rabbeinu, so what do I need the Rebbe for in addition?

So how do you explain the situation we have today?

On 12 Tammuz 5717/1957, I was in yeshiva in Lud. It was a Thursday night, and I had nothing to do I saw a booklet about what happened the week of Yud Shevat 5710 after the funeral. It said that when they returned from the cemetery, they davened Maariv and the Rebbe said that Chassidim dont eulogize but they tell stories. So, after every tefilla I will tell something from the Rebbe [Rayatz]. One of the things said there, and I havent found it since, because they left it out due to instructions from above (I dont see it in the Hisvaaduyos but there are other versions in other places):

Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism

What is Atzmus? There is the story of R Zalman Moshe who was sitting next to R Moshe Gurary, the great maskil, and asked him to explain Atzmus. R Moshe said it was impossible because if you give an explanation, it is no longer Atzmus. But when R Zalman Moshe latched on to something or someone Half an hour later, R Moshe gave in and he wanted to explain something. So the story goes that R Zalman Moshe gave him a slap, You want to give an explanation about Atzmus?!

So what is a Rebbe and how can we explain what happens with him? I cannot explain what a Rebbe is because a Rebbe is not a tzaddik, kadosh and tahor, although those are lofty things. But a Rebbe, if I could explain it, well then thats not a Rebbe.

There is a famous story about R Shmuel Gurary who was in some town where everyone told the miracles of his Rebbe and they asked him to tell a story too. He said that he wanted to travel to a certain city and the Rebbe told him to go to a different city and he went and lost all his money. The miracle was that he remained a Chassid of the Rebbe. I ask says R Zushe whose miracle is it, his or the Rebbes?

On Shabbos Parshas BHaaloscha we read about the 600,000 raglei haam (people) in whose midst I am. We, the people, are the feet of the Rebbe, and maybe we dont want this, but the Rebbe says, in whose midst I am I wont let you go. That we have a beard, tzitzis, tfillin etc., is a miracle of the Rebbe, the people in whose midst I am.

NOT TO WANT MOSHIACH BECAUSE I WILL BENEFIT

Talmidim who learned by R Zushe in yeshivos Tomchei Tmimim Lubavitch, know his style and remember his heartfelt farbrengens, even if at the time they did not fully appreciate the message. There is something he regularly says, Yechi anachnu (may we live). He quotes what the Rebbe said on 28 Nissan 5751, that if they cried Ad Mosai genuinely, Moshiach would have come already.

When do you cry out? he asks. When it hurts. And if you dont cry out, that shows that it does not hurt. It doesnt hurt anymore. What hurts most people is a problem at the bank or a problem with the kids. Moshiach doesnt hurt. And if it hurts that we dont see the Rebbe, its because of the giluyim that we miss.

I personally need two things that have no connection to one another. I need my wife to be well and I need Moshiach. Two unconnected things.

Then what is your reason for wanting Moshiach?

It should be good for every Jew, without any connection to Moshiach. And Moshiach doesnt need to wait so we have it good. Thats not Moshiach. You need to want Moshiach because the Rebbe wants Moshiach, because that is what we should want, because the world was created for Moshiach. For the same reason I put on tfillin. Because that is what is written.

After the Rebbe said all the birurim were taken care of, some people asked me, What do we need to do now (i.e., what is the purpose of our mitzvos if we are not involved in refining the world anymore)? I said, two things: First, there is the story of the Baal Shem Tov who was told from heaven that he has no share in the World to Come and he was satisfied, because that allowed him to serve Hashem without an agenda. Also, it says And bind them as a sign on your arm, and not because of all sorts of reasons. You say the bracha because you need to do so, because thats what it says in Shulchan Aruch, but you need to know there is a G-d. All the holiness of the Shulchan Aruch is that there is a G-d and this is the Torah of G-d.

They say that when the Rebbe Rashab sat with the Chafetz Chaim, the Chafetz Chaim said that he saw eidele faces on the Tmimim. The Rebbe Rashab said it was because they learned Chassidus. The Chafetz Chaim said he would bring Chassidus into his yeshiva and the Rebbe smiled. The Rebbe Rayatz asked him why he smiled and he said, because if there is no Rebbe, there is no Chassidus. That means, there is no Chassidus without the Rebbe.

Because its the same thing. The holiness of Chassidus is that there is a Rebbe. Just like if there is no G-d, there is no Torah. Because the Rebbes essence is Atzmus, so its the same thing.

THE PROBLEM IS MINE, NOT THE REBBES

There are those who treat Gimmel Tammuz like Yud Shevat

After 3 Tammuz 5754, they came to me and asked, what now? I told them, if you say that 3 Tammuz is like 10 Shevat, then its on one condition, that you go all the way and that means you need to find another Rebbe.

And what about when bachurim from yeshiva and people from the community and people you were in touch with outside of Chabad asked you, what did you explain to them?

I didnt explain anything. I had nothing to say. One of the bizarre things is that Chabadnikim know everything. They have an explanation for everything. I dont! In Chabad, everything is black and white, they have an opinion and explanation for everything. I dont belong to that. I belong to Lubavitch and know how to say that I dont know.

Still, what did you tell the bachurim?

I cant tell anyone what to think or feel.

If youll say that what happened is exactly what occurred on 10 Shevat 5710, I was there in 770. They sent me to announce the histalkus in Brownsville, where most Chabad Chassidim lived at the time. I knew Chassidim who were there on 2 Nissan 5689 (the passing of the Rebbe Rashab), who knew Chassidim who were there on 13 Tishrei 5643 (the passing of the Rebbe Maharash), and I can tell you and guide you in just what you need to do.

Or, 3 Tammuz was not like 10 Shevat, 2 Nissan, and 13 Tishrei, and then, we have a problem. 3 Tammuz is the personal problem of every one of us. I dont know and I dont understand, but its not the Rebbes problem! The Rebbe has no problem. I have a problem with the situation, I dont know what happened, I dont know exactly how to explain it, because I never experienced anything like this before.

But it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila

THE REBBE KNOWS EVERYTHING BUT WANTS TO HEAR FROM US

When did Chassidim start writing to the Rebbe did the Chassidim of the Alter Rebbe write to him?

It says so, in the introduction to Tanya. And there are many stories about Chassidim who went to the Rebbe and brought letters of Chassidim with them.

In the Rebbes letters we see that he encourages writing to him.

I once got a letter from the Rebbe in which the Rebbe writes, Although I havent received a letter from you in a long time, sometimes by not writing one can know more than from the writing

Meaning?

You need to write to the Rebbe even though he knows everything. Due to the normal order of things, you need to write. There is a system of nature in place, and Hashem wants us to write letters to the Rebbe.

WRITING TO THE REBBE IN RUSSIA

Someone who keeps the shiurim and does whatever he is supposed to, goes on mivtzaim, conducts himself according to halacha etc., what does he lack if he doesnt write to the Rebbe regularly but just once or twice a year?

When and how much are up to the individual. There are many things the Rebbe said about writing a lot, and as far as the Rebbes time, we are not to worry about that. Just write. That doesnt mean that I write; writing is hard for me.

You need to write and the Rebbe wants us to write. The problem is where to send the letters. Thats also a matter of hergesh.

Those who want to write to the Rebbe and put the letter into the Igros Kodesh have a precedent. In Russia, they would put letters into sifrei Chassidus.

My grandson, Mendy Naparstek, whose wife is the great-grandchild of R Chaim Shaul Bruk, told me after we did the shidduch with them, that she writes to the Rebbe through the Igros Kodesh about everything she does. The first answer she got about the shidduch was the letter sent to me. In the Igros its published without my name. And in that letter it says to look into shidduchim.

If someone were to ask you now whether to ask the Rebbe about medical matters, when some say to ask a rofeh-yedid and others say to write to the Rebbe and there are dozens of stories for both approaches, what do you say is the right thing to do?

To write to the Rebbe the good things too, but you need to write everything. What should you do with the letter? Put it wherever you want, in the Igros Kodesh, in a Tanya, wherever you want, the main thing is the writing. They say that as soon as you write the letter, the Rebbe receives it. The act of mailing it is just part of the normal way of the world, because from our perspective tzimtzum kpeshuto and its what the Rebbe wants. In any case, as far as nowadays, everyone should do according to his hergesh.

WRITING TO THE REBBE IS AN INHERENT PART OF BEING A CHASSID

So the focus should be on the writing and not necessarily on the response?

In 5727, I had yechidus and the Rebbe asked me: Did you place a tzetel on the tziyun?

I said, I gave a letter to the Rebbe.

The Rebbe asked: Were you at the tziyun?

I said yes.

Did you read the maaneh lashon?

I said yes.

Then the Rebbe said, in the maaneh lashon it says that you need to read the note at the tziyun.

I said, I brought the note to the Rebbe!

The Rebbe looked at me and asked when I was returning to Eretz Yisroel. When I said I was flying in two days, the Rebbe said: Fine, you wont manage to get it done by the day after tomorrow, but submit the note to the secretaries and when I will be at the tziyun, I will take the note and read it.

What are you telling us with this story?

That I went to the tziyun because youre supposed to go, but I gave the note to the Rebbe. I submitted a note to the secretaries did the Rebbe read the note at the tziyun or not, I dont care. You need to write because a Chassid needs to write, its an integral part of the hiskashrus of a Chassid to the Rebbe.

True, you want an answer from the Rebbe, but the main thing is to know there is a Rebbe, not to make the insertion into the Igros Kodesh conditional on receiving an answer. We are in a difficult, bitter state, the Rebbe should come already! These are such subtle issues that whatever you will say will never be totally correct

THE HISGALUS WILL HAPPEN RIGHT ON TIME

Dont we have traditions about how Chassidim dealt with things in the past? This is not the first time that Chassidim are dealing with things like these

There is the story about R Mendel who wrote to the Rebbe Rayatz in his mind and the Rebbe sent an actual letter saying he received his letter. But then, whoever was near the Rebbe, saw the Rebbe, but now, nobody sees the Rebbe. Its a problem. There was never such a problem.

Chassidim in the past knew how to cope. What do we do today? When will the Rebbe come?

Ill tell you when. I dont know exactly which day, but I think I can tell you in what situation When did the Jewish people leave Egypt? It was the last second before entering the fiftieth level The Rebbe is looking at us and watching us play on, and the moment that our situation becomes critical then it will stop

In our current situation, the main thing we need to concern ourselves with is that it should happen now, because the current situation is intolerable. And the Rebbe will reveal himself

How does one mute a thread for 24 hours
Lol
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Boruch999 on July 07, 2019, 02:51:45 AM
I take the Rebbe's word.

The Rebbe said he was Aztmus ein sof?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2019, 02:10:33 PM
Its kefirah. Take my word for it.

The only words I can take from you, not knowing who you are or what your background is, are those that reflect on you.

When you come out with a blanket statement saying
Undiluted kefira

on an interview with someone who is probably more than twice your age, has been involved in Chinuch for more than 5 decades and has hundreds of talmidim that look up to him, quote his Rebbe who is probably the most influential Torah Yid (with that influence being in spreading and increasing Torah and Mitzvos amongst Yidden, and Tikun Oilam amongst non-Jews - as recently as within the last 2 weeks at the UN general assembly) to walk on this earth in the last 70 years, without even bothering to offer your own arguments (are you trying to argue that Tzimtzum is כפשוטו?), gets me to wonder where you might have learned such.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 07, 2019, 03:55:17 PM
The only words I can take from you, not knowing who you are or what your background is, are those that reflect on you.

When you come out with a blanket statement saying
on an interview with someone who is probably more than twice your age, has been involved in Chinuch for more than 5 decades and has hundreds of talmidim that look up to him, quote his Rebbe who is probably the most influential Torah Yid (with that influence being in spreading and increasing Torah and Mitzvos amongst Yidden, and Tikun Oilam amongst non-Jews - as recently as within the last 2 weeks at the UN general assembly) to walk on this earth in the last 70 years, without even bothering to offer your own arguments (are you trying to argue that Tzimtzum is כפשוטו?), gets me to wonder where you might have learned such.

The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.

90% of those reading this probably dont know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: doodle on July 07, 2019, 04:09:37 PM
The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.

90% of those reading this probably dont know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....
Well Said !!
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 07, 2019, 04:26:37 PM
The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.

90% of those reading this probably dont know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body-

You are putting words into Rabbi Posner's mouth. Nowhere in this article did he say the bolded part. What he said is that the situation we are in now doesn't make sense and that he doesn't know the answers.

There is plenty to criticize my dear Uncle for, but don't blame him for what other people say.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 07, 2019, 04:34:01 PM
You are putting words into Rabbi Posner's mouth. Nowhere in this article did he say the bolded part. What he said is that the situation we are in now doesn't make sense and that he doesn't know the answers.

There is plenty to criticize my dear Uncle for, but don't blame him for what other people say.

 Thats what he seems to be saying. When he is saying it doesnt make sense, what he seems to be referring to is not the possibility of the Rebbe no longer being in a physical  form, but rather the fact that the Rebbe is in a physical body yet we do not see any physical body, and we know he was buried. Here is the full quote:

But it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: doodle on July 07, 2019, 05:04:11 PM
I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid (died) then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila
From an intellectually  honest point of view, we need to entertain the possibility that
They lied to us
Otherwise you are having only half the conversation
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2019, 07:23:35 PM
The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.
Why do you think this isn't relevant to צמצום לאו כפשוטו. While this is not the proper forum or format to delve into it, and there are plenty who are much better versed than I am. Or that can explain things better than myself, I will attempt to do so on a very simplistic level (without actually trying to explain what the Rebbe is). Once we understand that צמצום לאו כפשוטו, and we understand that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it). And since a Rebbe is in complete ביטול to his creator, his existence reveals the creator rather than conceal it, and as a result

(https://i.imgur.com/yJDTlc9.png)

90% of those reading this probably dont know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....

I have no idea whatsoever about christian beliefs, and find it unfortunate that people might be better versed in those than in Jewish beliefs and traditions.

And again, your contention that something is "big time kefira" without presenting an argument or sources to that, doesn't make you sound very credible.

As for Rabbi Posner, and the article, let's first pay attention to the article headline:

Quote
CHABADNIKIM KNOW EVERYTHING. THEY HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR EVERYTHING. I DONT.

And in the paragraph just before the one you quote, he says:
Quote
Or, 3 Tammuz was not like 10 Shevat, 2 Nissan, and 13 Tishrei, and then, we have a problem. 3 Tammuz is the personal problem of every one of us. I dont know and I dont understand, but its not the Rebbes problem! The Rebbe has no problem. I have a problem with the situation, I dont know what happened, I dont know exactly how to explain it, because I never experienced anything like this before.

I agree (and I'm pretty certain that Rabbi Posner would agree) with @doodle that

From an intellectually  honest point of view, we need to entertain the possibility that
They lied to us
Otherwise you are having only half the conversation

And while a chosid will entertain that "possibility" only in one way - as an "impossibility" (given the quote I posted above בכתי"ק), this fact has managed to penetrate even in גדרי העולם, where judge Sifton declared it to be an impossibility, EVEN WHEN HE HAS NO EXPLANATION FOR THE FACTS.

Quote
So what is a Rebbe and how can we explain what happens with him? I cannot explain what a Rebbe is because a Rebbe is not a tzaddik, kadosh and tahor, although those are lofty things. But a Rebbe, if I could explain it, well then thats not a Rebbe.

There is plenty to criticize my dear Uncle for,

Go ahead, spill the beans, tell us all your criticism. I'm sure you know that your dear uncle isn't afraid of any criticism.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 07, 2019, 07:36:17 PM

Go ahead, spill the beans, tell us all your criticism.

Let's start with the fact that he did an interview with the Beis Moshiach magazine...

I'm sure you know that your dear uncle isn't afraid of any criticism.

Indeed
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Menachem613 on July 07, 2019, 08:03:37 PM
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2019, 08:21:42 PM
Let's start with the fact that he did an interview with the Beis Moshiach magazine...
::)

Toeing the party line with that criticism.

Let me respond to that with a quote from your dear uncle: אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 07, 2019, 09:03:15 PM
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.

The term is often loosely used where people really mean דעות כוזבות and the like. However,  when it comes the idea that the Rebbe may be in some corporeal form as Moshiach waiting to reveal himself,  those who adhere to the belief are convinced that it is the only true path while those who are opposed to the movement are for the most part claiming that it is indeed no less than kefira/shituf.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Boruch999 on July 08, 2019, 01:56:23 AM
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.

He writes "Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism presumably about the Rebbe when he was still alive.

The Rambam considers belief in Hashem's Oneness an ikar and one who denies it a kofer b'ikar.  He also says that Hashem is ein sof and that saying that anything else is ein sof is incompatible with Hashem's Oneness.  See Yesodei Hatorah perek 1 and 2.

 
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 07:27:29 AM
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Menachem613 on July 08, 2019, 07:57:31 AM
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

Why is a new leader necessary? Things are running as planned. 
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 08:11:17 AM
Why is a new leader necessary? Things are running as planned.
Sounds like everyone here is saying there's an issue not having a living rebbe. Besides, it's very hard to believe that things run as smoothly with a manhig as without.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Menachem613 on July 08, 2019, 08:15:52 AM
Sounds like everyone here is saying there's an issue not having a living rebbe. Besides, it's very hard to believe that things run as smoothly with a manhig as without.

I think the Rebbe planned things very well so that the org can run even better in the future. I dont know the stats, but I would imagine Chabad is even stronger these days by any metric. 
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2019, 11:27:40 AM
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2019, 11:31:28 AM
He writes "Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism presumably about the Rebbe when he was still alive.

The Rambam considers belief in Hashem's Oneness an ikar and one who denies it a kofer b'ikar.  He also says that Hashem is ein sof and that saying that anything else is ein sof is incompatible with Hashem's Oneness.  See Yesodei Hatorah perek 1 and 2.

If you had even a passing understanding of achdus hashem as explained by Chassidus or Kabbalah you would realize that your second paragraph proves the first.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: skyguy918 on July 08, 2019, 12:46:50 PM
Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 08, 2019, 01:00:48 PM
I don't understand ... Please explain for the non-chassidim
I think that pretty much sums up this whole "discussion"
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 01:25:42 PM
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.
+1
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2019, 02:44:56 PM
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.

A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 08, 2019, 03:14:41 PM
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2019, 03:29:28 PM
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?

Huh? What does that have to do with I said?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 08, 2019, 03:33:32 PM
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
This is, of course, based on the premise that there is no such person alive physically. How would someone know that?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 03:40:27 PM
This is, of course, based on the premise that there is no such person alive physically. How would someone know that?
Included in this question is how does one know if someone that is called a rebbe, actually is one. And if it's based on the previous rebbes say so, how was the first one identified?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 08, 2019, 03:41:53 PM
Huh? What does that have to do with I said?
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 03:42:48 PM
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.
I think he meant that when one dies, they are usually replaced
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 08, 2019, 03:46:57 PM
I think he meant that when one dies, they are usually replaced
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 08, 2019, 03:47:48 PM
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.
Ok. I was not aware.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: username on July 08, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 08, 2019, 04:05:39 PM
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.
But does that mean that no other person will ever have that type of neshoma?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 08, 2019, 04:10:07 PM
But does that mean that no other person will ever have that type of neshoma?
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 08, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?
Lol of course there is only one.

They also believe in achdus......... Just more like the trilogy version
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 08, 2019, 09:56:20 PM
The term is often loosely used where people really mean דעות כוזבות and the like. However,  when it comes the idea that the Rebbe may be in some corporeal form as Moshiach waiting to reveal himself,  those who adhere to the belief are convinced that it is the only true path while those who are opposed to the movement are for the most part BASELESSLY (and probably rooted in something I'd rather not mention) claiming that it is indeed no less than kefira/shituf.
FTFY.

The Gemorah has a few stories about apparent death and burial followed (or preceded) by events or statements statements which are incongruent with such.  (יעקב אבינו לא מת, ר אלעזר ב״ר שמעון, רבינו הקדוש).
Anyone raising the kefira/shituf claim there?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 08, 2019, 10:06:26 PM
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

I'll give you the גראב גערעדט answer: With the plurality of opinions, interpretations, etc within Lubavitch, this is one thing that is agreed upon across the board (with few outliers). (You might have heard the joke about the difference between Lubavitch on the one hand and Satmar or Bobov on the other).

Though I believe the true answer is, that regardless of nuances, I think almost everyone אשר בשם ליובאוויטש יכונה agrees that the Rebbe continues to actively lead just like before ג תמוז תשנד (though the form might be different), and therefore the thought doesn't even cross anyone's mind (not that it would matter one bit if it did).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 08, 2019, 10:15:14 PM
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.

Your dear uncle definitely didn't phrase such a question. And based on your explanations given in this thread, would term you a Chabadnik rather than a Lubavitcher. 😉

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 08, 2019, 10:31:47 PM
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?

Let's start by requoting Rabbi Posner (with emphasis added):

Quote
So what is a Rebbe and how can we explain what happens with him? I cannot explain what a Rebbe is because a Rebbe is not a tzaddik, kadosh and tahor, although those are lofty things. But a Rebbe, if I could explain it, well then thats not a Rebbe.

There are more quotes from Rabbi Posner around this specific question, often quoting his father. You're more than welcome to come to a farbrengen where those will be shared with you.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: doodle on July 08, 2019, 11:33:24 PM
Your dear uncle definitely didn't phrase such a question. And based on your explanations given in this thread, would term you a Chabadnik rather than a Lubavitcher. 😉

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.
Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnt . Time to move on . Like Yidden did when The Baal Shem Tov was Niftar , when The Baal HaTanya The Noam Elimelech , Meor Vshemesh etc all were Niftar.
Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important.

Absolutely!!!

Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway .

So let's be intellectually honest, and approach things with openness of thought.

How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?

How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 12:11:16 AM
Absolutely!!!

So let's be intellectually honest, and approach things with openness of thought.

How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?

How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 12:22:43 AM

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):

(http://i.imgur.com/zj6Ly84.png)

Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

Dug it up for contrast :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 12:25:26 AM
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?

Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 12:33:44 AM
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".
I'm understanding you're of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 09, 2019, 12:36:22 AM
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".

I believe he said
"רבי הוא עצמות ומהות כפי שהלביש עצמו בגוף".

Which leads some mishichistin to this:
https://www.chabad.fm/141/10073.html

What he likely meant was:
הרה"ח ר' שלום פלדמן מכפר חב"ד (לשעבר משפיע בישיבת תות"ל חולון) קירב מישהו לחסידות. שמע היהודי לאחר זמן מה כי חסידי חב"ד מדברים שהרבי הוא עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף - למרות כל ההסברים ששמע- הוא התעצבן נורא והלך.

ר' שלום רץ אחריו והתחנן אליו כי יסע וישאל את הרבי בעצמו. כעבור זמן מה הזדמן לאותו יהודי לנסוע לארה"ב, ואיך שהוא ובהשג"פ יצא לו להכנס עם עוד חסיד חב"ד ליחידות ושאל את הרבי על זה.

ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 12:37:33 AM
I'm understanding you're of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?
Yes and yes.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: joey89 on July 09, 2019, 12:38:39 AM
Mods can you split this thread.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 12:38:47 AM
Yes and yes.
If R' Akiva could be wrong about who was Moshiach, why not the Rebbe too?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 09, 2019, 12:43:09 AM
Mods can you split this thread.
Then it will get locked shortly afterwards :)

Just look at the other threads on this topic. It never ends well
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 09, 2019, 12:54:08 AM
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: joey89 on July 09, 2019, 12:59:25 AM
Then it will get locked shortly afterwards :)

Just look at the other threads on this topic. It never ends well

Wouldnt be the worst thing
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: joey89 on July 09, 2019, 01:02:52 AM
Mods can you split this thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.

Guess its not gonna happen
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 09, 2019, 01:05:49 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.

Thank you.

In 1992, a journalist from Israel said to the Rebbe, "We appreciate you very much, we want to see you in Israel; you said soon you will be in Israel, so when will you come?" The Rebbe responded: "I also want to be in Israel." The journalist insisted, "So when, when will you come?" The Rebbe responded, "That depends on the Moshiach, not on me." The journalist persisted, "You are the Moshiach!" to which the Rebbe responded, "I am not."[51]
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 09, 2019, 07:31:14 AM

But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe

But that's nothing new...

Quote
A few months later, a few people did muster the courage to start singing at an intermission in a Shabbos farbrengen a less overt song that implied that the Rebbe was the messiah. Within a few seconds the Rebbe heard it and immediately became very grave and said: "Really, I should get up and leave [the room]. Even if some people consider it is not respectful that I need to [be the one to leave], I dont need to reckon with the views of a small number when [what they are saying] is the opposite of reality. However, first of all, it will unfortunately not help anyway. Secondly, it will disrupt the shevet achim gam yachad [brethren to dwell together in unity], for if I were to leave, others will leave, too."
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
Very interesting. @ExGingi
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: grodnoking on July 09, 2019, 09:09:29 AM
Split the tread!
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 09, 2019, 09:12:52 AM
Very interesting. @ExGingi
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 09, 2019, 09:14:10 AM
But that's nothing new...

Exactly.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 09:20:18 AM
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
I don't think Moshiach is something that gets forced on people. You either are or aren't...
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 09, 2019, 10:05:42 AM
I don't think Moshiach is something that gets forced on people. You either are or aren't...
Why would it be different than Shaul, Dovid, etc? (In those situations it wasn't people that forced it on them, it was Hashem), but I would think if they refused to accept it, they had bechira. I agree with the idea you are trying to say that it's not up to the person's followers, but I wouldn't say unequivocally that you are or you aren't.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 10:16:09 AM
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
I thought that is something from birth and people don't get appointed rebbe?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gozalim on July 09, 2019, 10:25:15 AM
http://beismoshiachmagazine.org/articles/chabadnikim-know-everything-they-have-an-explanation-for-eve.html
journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock
and that's probably half the answer to
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 09, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Very interesting. @ExGingi
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about
what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication
we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 09, 2019, 10:59:36 AM
journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock

Journalistic integrity is an oxymoron, but insomuch as it exists, it wouldn't be expected from the interviewer, the interviewee or OP. This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gozalim on July 09, 2019, 11:01:02 AM
evidently he's smarter than
Quote
One of the things said there, and I havent found it since, because they left it out due to instructions from above (I dont see it in the Hisvaaduyos but there are other versions in other places):
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yelped on July 09, 2019, 11:19:58 AM
Journalistic integrity is an oxymoron, but insomuch as it exists, it wouldn't be expected from the interviewer, the interviewee or OP. This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).
Your puns are awesome.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: username on July 09, 2019, 11:22:23 AM
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?
Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.





















[...] To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.

???
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 09, 2019, 11:49:24 AM
I thought that is something from birth and people don't get appointed rebbe?














???


In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
The Rebbe is the Neshomoh Klolis of the generation he leads. What @Dan is referring to is the Rebbe's reluctance to accept that the generation of which he was the Rebbe had started (which is why, when approached to do "Rebbe things" he referred people to the Freidiker Rebbe).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 09, 2019, 11:56:16 AM

He became rebbe while the previous rebbes was alive?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 01:25:31 PM
In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
The Rebbe is the Neshomoh Klolis of the generation he leads. What @Dan is referring to is the Rebbe's reluctance to accept that the generation of which he was the Rebbe had started (which is why, when approached to do "Rebbe things" he referred people to the Freidiker Rebbe).

There is a lot here which really looks like twisting into a pretzel to meet some preconceived notions and some interpretations which are only being interpreted that way in order to make them mean what you want them to and not really based on intellectual honesty.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 09, 2019, 02:50:06 PM
There is a lot here which really looks like twisting into a pretzel to meet some preconceived notions and some interpretations which are only being interpreted that way in order to make them mean what you want them to and not really based on intellectual honesty.

I thought I was clear when I wrote
In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
that I was not responding to you.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 02:55:03 PM
I thought I was clear when I wrote that I was not responding to you.
That depends on what you mean by honestly wants to understand. If you mean that everything needs to begin with the premise that it is this way and we are only trying to understand how then you are correct. I would say that I am honestly willing to understand if there is an explanation which makes sense . Meanwhile I haven't seen one. Maybe that is because I am missing some concepts of chassidus, but I am willing to listen. I am not looking to davka understand as opposed to rejecting it. If it is only understandable to those looking to davka understand and not potentially reject the whole premise then that says a lot.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 09, 2019, 03:34:44 PM
He became rebbe while the previous rebbes was alive?
No, a year after his histalkus.

https://youtu.be/tKVGhweTrk8?t=2m4s
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/96058/jewish/The-Histalkus-of-a-Rebbe.htm
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 09, 2019, 05:08:31 PM
No, a year after his histalkus.
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/96058/jewish/The-Histalkus-of-a-Rebbe.htm
Ok. So based on what was said before, there was one year without a (living) rebbe. So this is not the first time.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
Very interesting. @ExGingi
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about
what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication
we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).

journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock

I don't think a disclaimer is needed. I posted the article because I saw it on Shabbos, and (unlike most of those related to him, even more closely than myself or for a longer time than myself) I like his style (always did). I do agree that my judgment as to how and what to respond to has been clouded by my emotions (nothing to do with the interview, but rather some of the responses in this thread that were written by people who attended תומכי תמימים). I should have stuck to insisting that blatant accusations made without any source or backing, are just those, and should be valued as such, while disclaiming any responses to questions addressed to me that were written by others.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 05:36:07 PM
Is it OK to post this?



(There are some errors in the subtitles, most notable is at 1:59 הגיע instead of הגיה).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 09, 2019, 06:50:59 PM
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.


I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
If R' Akiva could be wrong about who was Moshiach, why not the Rebbe too?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 07:08:49 PM
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.
I wasn't referring to you. And no, I didn't say the Wikipedia story isn't true, I am asking for a source, other than hearsay.

What would be your response to this?
I am waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 09, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?

Why don't you ask the author of that letter? Or ask JEM, the named source? Or is it easier to cast aspersions and pretend like searching a site that does not (or should not) publish anything owned by JEM means anything?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 09, 2019, 07:35:16 PM
Yes and yes.
Meh, that was an easy one.. Guys watch ExGingi evade this one. He won't answer yes or no.

Do you believe the rebbeh is a god?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 07:41:45 PM
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did (https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/קטגוריה:משלי_כו_ד).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 09, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did (https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/קטגוריה:משלי_כו_ד).
LOL I won.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 07:58:32 PM
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
He means me.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yelped on July 09, 2019, 08:07:31 PM
This thread is absolutely mind boggling.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 08:10:03 PM
He means me.
I most definitely did not. I didn't see any evidence of you being anything but intellectually honest in this thread.

I erred in making my statement about those invoking intellectual honesty, as I have now gone back through this thread and didn't see that explicitly invoked by those I was alluding to.

I would hope that everyone here be intellectually (and otherwise) honest. Though unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the rule.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 08:17:08 PM
ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

How is this any different than what I wrote here (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=105050.msg2110233#msg2110233)?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 08:40:55 PM
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 09, 2019, 08:54:57 PM
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
You do understand though what they mean when they say that the mitzvos are dependent on his existence, right?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 09, 2019, 09:12:04 PM
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".

Whether he claimed to be Moshiach or not is besides the point, the problem is why he didn't make it crystal clear that he isn't.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 09, 2019, 09:55:25 PM
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
Did those people stop putting on tefillin? Maybe, just maybe, and I have never asked the people quoted myself, but perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later? I dunno, just spitballing here.



Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 09, 2019, 09:57:37 PM
Whether he claimed to be Moshiach or not is besides the point, the problem is why he didn't make it crystal clear that he isn't.
Glad this forum has such a giant so as to have the cojones to point out problems with the Rebbe.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 10:30:33 PM
Did those people stop putting on tefillin? Maybe, just maybe, and I have never asked the people quoted myself, but perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later? I dunno, just spitballing here.
I understand the answer that maybe it wasn't meant that way or taken out of context, but that is only a partial answer for something of such magnitude. It is also not the reaction that there has been in this thread about those who took it at face value and found it problematic. Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic. Until your post, I have not seen any "Lubavitchers" concede that it any way at all. Do you concede that?

Was this really typed now about an interview from 30 years ago? Maybe I missed it, but I saw no indication of that.

This that they are all still wearing Tefillin he seems to be explaining by saying that what seems to have occurred isn't really as it seems but that he doesn't understand how rather than that the entire premise that it would be a reason to stop wearing Tefillin is incorrect.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2019, 10:32:22 PM
You do understand though what they mean when they say that the mitzvos are dependent on his existence, right?
I understand how you are interpreting it and note that no other explanation has been offered other than @Yehuda57 seeming to say that it wasn't meant that way at all.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 09, 2019, 10:58:38 PM
Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic.
Well said.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 09, 2019, 11:04:54 PM
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did (https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/קטגוריה:משלי_כו_ד).

You might want to look up the exception that the gemarah gives to that advice
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 09, 2019, 11:14:07 PM
If Wikipedia is right about the Rebbe's response, why did Rav Yoel Kahan, (whom R' Manis Friedman (in last week's Ami) described as the most brilliant man to live in the past few generations), think the Rebbe was Moshiach?

(Someone I know asked Rav Yoel when the Rebbe was sick, what's he gonna say if the Rebbe dies? He responded "if after 6000 years the world doesn't end, what are you gonna say? The answer is it's not gonna happen - the world will end, the Rebbe won't die.)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 09, 2019, 11:22:29 PM
If Wikipedia is right about the Rebbe's response, why did Rav Yoel Kahan, (whom R' Manis Friedman (in last week's Ami) described as the most brilliant man to live in the past few generations), think the Rebbe was Moshiach?

עמי מאגאזין אוויקיפעדיא קשיא.  ::)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 09, 2019, 11:40:04 PM


I understand the answer that maybe it wasn't meant that way or taken out of context, but that is only a partial answer for something of such magnitude. It is also not the reaction that there has been in this thread about those who took it at face value and found it problematic. Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic. Until your post, I have not seen any "Lubavitchers" concede that it any way at all. Do you concede that?

Was this really typed now about an interview from 30 years ago? Maybe I missed it, but I saw no indication of that.

This that they are all still wearing Tefillin he seems to be explaining by saying that what seems to have occurred isn't really as it seems but that he doesn't understand how rather than that the entire premise that it would be a reason to stop wearing Tefillin is incorrect.

I should follow my gut instincts and stay out of these threads. Suffice to say that if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 09, 2019, 11:45:22 PM
עמי מאגאזין אוויקיפעדיא קשיא.  ::)
lol
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 10, 2019, 06:42:27 AM
I understand how you are interpreting it and note that no other explanation has been offered other than @Yehuda57 seeming to say that it wasn't meant that way at all.
There is no other explanation. The whole moshiach thing is a diversion from the real issue. They very seldom clearly articulate their beliefs. You have to pin them down like we did to exgingi or read between the lines and understand what they are really saying.
Definitely let's not keep our heads in the sand and make as if this all doesn't exist.
This comment in the article is clear as day to whoever wants to see what's really happened.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 07:47:53 AM

I should follow my gut instincts and stay out of these threads. Suffice to say that if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss.
So should I.

Great. Happy to hear that. So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2019, 08:17:03 AM
So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?

Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 10, 2019, 09:05:58 AM
So should I.

Great. Happy to hear that. So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?
I'm the wrong person to ask, I couldn't care less about it. I barely skimmed through the article and only did that because of this thread. It doesn't affect my life.

Had you walked into the gimmel tammuz farbrengen I was at, you might have heard a line like, "and if you're going to daven without sending a tweet first, you might as well marry a shiksa."

Now no amount of context will ever make that statement unproblematic. But, I have full confidence that you would have walked away from the farbrengen inspired, and your davenning the next day would have been immeasurably better.

But even had I not been at the farbrengen to hear the context and had just walked by for a second and heard that line, I would know the person wasn't advocating using twitter at all, let alone during davenning, and even if twitter is done sort of weird metaphor for a tool to improve davenning, he still wouldn't be advocating intermarriage for those who don't daven "properly" - or even at all. Mind you, this person is a Shliach on campus and devotes much of his life to preventing intermarriage. Because I know this person is a frum Yid who lives by the shulchan aruch.

If your baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs. I mean the Rebbe literally made yafutzu maaynosecha chutza a life mission for every chossid, and Lubavitchers will jump at every opportunity to teach you even one word of chassidus. But if you treat Chabad like any other group, a problematic statement might raise an eyebrow, sure, but you'll move on with your day.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 09:13:48 AM
Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.

One second, are you (and @Yehuda57)  really understanding the issue to be one about wearing tefillin? I assure you that, as terrible as פושעי ישראל בגופן would be, it is totally ancillary to the theological issues with such a statement. Meanwhile, unfortunately, @churnbabychurn is absolutely correct that there has been nothing but beating around the bush and still no real explanation for the theology behind such a statement other than the one presented by him or that it wasn't meant that way at all (which would bring us back to my earlier comment). Meanwhile, any attempts to understand what is going on have been met with obfuscations.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 09:42:28 AM
If your baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs. I mean the Rebbe literally made yafutzu maaynosecha chutza a life mission for every chossid, and Lubavitchers will jump at every opportunity to teach you even one word of chassidus. But if you treat Chabad like any other group, a problematic statement might raise an eyebrow, sure, but you'll move on with your day.
I assure you that this is not my baseline. I fully understand that there was no advocating not wearing tefilin just like there was no advocating of intermarriage.

To be honest, @churnbabychurn has expressed similar concern about statements along similar lines by groups other than Lubavitch as well.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 10, 2019, 09:51:15 AM
How is this any different than what I wrote here (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=105050.msg2110233#msg2110233)?

The issue was not with what you wrote, but rather with the context in the article that took things to the point that most would consider kefira.



Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism

But it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I dont need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid then we can stop putting on tfillin, chalila
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2019, 10:22:52 AM
One second, are you (and @Yehuda57)  really understanding the issue to be one about wearing tefillin? I assure you that, as terrible as פושעי ישראל בגופן would be, it is totally ancillary to the theological issues with such a statement.

No. I think we have decent reading comprehension. While I can only speak for myself, I can still read @Yehuda57's post and see there that he and I are saying the same thing, even if not explicitly spelled out ברחל בתך הקטנה.

The issue is:

Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.

Or in other words, it's a matter of certain things being אפגעפרעגט.

I can appreciate the fact that the style and talk, which is easily understood by people who have attended more chassidic farbrengens than they can count, is totally foreign to you (and others), and indeed sounds אפגעפרעגט.

But anyone who doesn't find it אפגעפרעגט to even suspect that people who are actively spreading לימוד התורה וקיום מצוות and such is done out of אהבת־ישראל to any Yid, of the type of accusations and assertions that have been raised, is simply lacking in their אהבת השם ויראת השם.

ETA: I am mostly surprised at YOU of all people, given that IIRC you have had שימוש and have acted as a מורה הוראה. CMIIW, but part of how one addresses a שאלה is related to how it is asked.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 10:46:58 AM
No. I think we have decent reading comprehension. While I can only speak for myself, I can still read @Yehuda57's post and see there that he and I are saying the same thing, even if not explicitly spelled out ברחל בתך הקטנה.

The issue is:

Or in other words, it's a matter of certain things being אפגעפרעגט.

I can appreciate the fact that the style and talk, which is easily understood by people who have attended more chassidic farbrengens than they can count, is totally foreign to you (and others), and indeed sounds אפגעפרעגט.

But anyone who doesn't find it אפגעפרעגט to even suspect that people who are actively spreading לימוד התורה וקיום מצוות and such is done out of אהבת־ישראל to any Yid, of the type of accusations and assertions that have been raised, is simply lacking in their אהבת השם ויראת השם.

ETA: I am mostly surprised at YOU of all people, given that IIRC you have had שימוש and have acted as a מורה הוראה. CMIIW, but part of how one addresses a שאלה is related to how it is asked.

I think that it may be beneficial for you to review exactly what I have posted in this thread with their nuances from the beginning and compare that with what some have assumed my opinion here has been. Also, don't leave the very real existence of confirmation bias out of the equation. Indignation will not solve that but dialogue may.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 12:01:12 PM
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 10, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.
Half the people here don't know anything about the magazine other than that it was posted here by @ExGingi . I never heard of it until now.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 12:04:10 PM
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.

What magazine is it? It was an article posted here by a member.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 12:26:30 PM
Half the people here don't know anything about the magazine other than that it was posted here by @ExGingi . I never heard of it until now.
What magazine is it? It was an article posted here by a member.
It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 01:54:10 PM
Without getting caught up in all this I'd like to mention that I asked a friend in jem who in turn asked around in the office and as of yet no one can remember of such a video where the rebbe says something so blatantly that he is not moshiach. I'm gonna move on to ask the one who wrote that article (Chaim rapoport) if he can produce the source and date/video of that encounter.

Another point (although I don't consider myself a mishechist - which in itself the term needs a proper definition) for someone who went through the rebbes Torah (not even all of it) and understands/appreciates the rebbes style and sees where he speaks about the nossi hador being the moshiach shebador, as well as where he speaks about a rebbe living a chayim nitzchiim it is (in my opinion) impossible not to see (not saying agree with) where those who believe the rebbe to be moshiach get the idea from and why they feel that way, and one must say they have a valid opinion based on the rebbes teachings (unless of course you throw out the whole Sefer hasichos in addition to other sichos which some can't explain).

As a reminder I don't consider myself a mishechist at all but I do respect those who feel the rebbe to be moshiach (not talking about the Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 02:01:40 PM
Every yid is a חלק אלו-ה ממעל ממש as the Alter Rebbe stresses in Tanya.

In some that's something that is completely concealed ch"v (though even they are willing to be moser nefesh rather than convert) and at the other end of the spectrum (in a Rebbe) it's completely revealed.

Any other questions, or can we lock this thread yet?

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 10, 2019, 02:14:28 PM
can we lock this thread yet?
Part of me says yes, otherwise at some point I'm probably going to have to go and actually read the article from the OP

Part of me also wants to respond to @chbochur but I do need to get some work done today so I don't think that's a good idea...
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 02:18:04 PM
Part of me says yes, otherwise at some point I'm probably going to have to go and actually read the article from the OP

Part of me also wants to respond to @chbochur but I do need to get some work done today so I don't think that's a good idea...
You're gonna let a little work get in the way in answering the world's greatest unanswered question?

But in full seriousness You're welcome to pm me to set up a chavrusah in the rebbes torah or if you need clarification on when learning it on your own
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 10, 2019, 02:26:33 PM
The way Dan puts it, there isn't anything controversial going on. The question is why others seem to be beating around the bush, if they agree with him, let them come out and say it clearly.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 02:34:09 PM
The way Dan puts it, there isn't anything controversial going on. The question is why others seem to be beating around the bush, if they agree with him, let them come out and say it clearly.
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some
Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)
that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 10, 2019, 02:41:03 PM
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 10, 2019, 02:41:42 PM




But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

+
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

This is what I would like to believe. Every now and then something pops up causing me to question that. When it does then the best route (with me) will be to just answer the stupid question and go on.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 02:45:19 PM


Tthere's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

Unfortunately I can't agree that they have "lost their way" I feel they were on a different path from day one (a more theoretical one as opposed to living with or visiting the (physical) rebbe often). Hence to these people gimmel tammuz really hasn't changed anything.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 03:00:07 PM
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.

You were expecting clear answers from @ExGingi. As has been mentioned before, though I can't find the exact post, @ExGingi and @churnbabychurn are basically mirror images of each other, just they do their trolling from extreme Chabad and Litvak perspectives.



I was wondering what was up with CBC. I had become used to the kinder gentler CBC. Now I see he is just hazing ex-gingi.

CBC I'll make you a deal... You stop taking the bait from every Lubavitcher who posts on ddf and I'll stop mentioning shaving and cholov akum.

All the above is meant of course in good spirit of holiday cheer.

Oh c'mon. We've been doing this every year since at least 2013. All in good spirit of the holiday cheer.

Exgingi is kinda new, and also very hard core.. so I thought it would be interesting to get in another perspective..- turns out he needs to get people to sit in his succah and have a couple of shots before he reveals the secrets.


Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
This is what I would like to believe. Every now and then something pops up causing me to question that. When it does then the best route (with me) will be to just answer the stupid question and go on.
Many people are offended by stupid questions and feel that dignifying them with an answer is giving space to the validity of said question.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 03:01:26 PM

Unfortunately I can't agree that they have "lost their way" I feel they were on a different path from day one (a more theoretical one as opposed to living with or visiting the (physical) rebbe often). Hence to these people gimmel tammuz really hasn't changed anything.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 10, 2019, 03:14:55 PM
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.
You mean this:
Why do you think this isn't relevant to צמצום לאו כפשוטו. While this is not the proper forum or format to delve into it, and there are plenty who are much better versed than I am. Or that can explain things better than myself, I will attempt to do so on a very simplistic level (without actually trying to explain what the Rebbe is). Once we understand that צמצום לאו כפשוטו, and we understand that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it). And since a Rebbe is in complete ביטול to his creator, his existence reveals the creator rather than conceal it, and as a result

https://i.imgur.com/yJDTlc9.png

And this

What he likely meant was:
הרה"ח ר' שלום פלדמן מכפר חב"ד (לשעבר משפיע בישיבת תות"ל חולון) קירב מישהו לחסידות. שמע היהודי לאחר זמן מה כי חסידי חב"ד מדברים שהרבי הוא עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף - למרות כל ההסברים ששמע- הוא התעצבן נורא והלך.

ר' שלום רץ אחריו והתחנן אליו כי יסע וישאל את הרבי בעצמו. כעבור זמן מה הזדמן לאותו יהודי לנסוע לארה"ב, ואיך שהוא ובהשג"פ יצא לו להכנס עם עוד חסיד חב"ד ליחידות ושאל את הרבי על זה.

ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

And remember
This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).

In summary, trolls gonna troll, haters gonna hate, and snarkers gonna snark.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2019, 03:18:30 PM
Many people are offended by stupid questions and feel that dignifying them with an answer is giving space to the validity of said question.
I personally would be equally satisfied with an answer via PM.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 05:03:57 PM
An interesting collection of responses of the rebbe on this matter
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nOjfaNMpC3n41yB3o2bhFflpfl3ASc4l/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2019, 05:07:13 PM
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow afternoon bez"h. If anyone wants to meet and have a civilized discussion, PM.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 05:12:21 PM
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow afternoon bez"h. If anyone wants to meet and have a civilized discussion, PM.
Fish Grill DO?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 10, 2019, 06:39:01 PM
?s=09


They have nothing on lubavich though.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gingyguy on July 10, 2019, 06:49:30 PM
Fish Grill DO?
you gonna fly in?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 10, 2019, 07:11:08 PM
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 07:15:46 PM
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
I would agree with this (but not with your previous comments mentioned earlier)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 10, 2019, 07:28:13 PM
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 10, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

I am not Chabad. And your last statement is ridiculous.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 10, 2019, 07:39:59 PM


Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

Just to mention I don't necessarily agree with this statement summarizing most chabadskers views or how many of them do or don't believe in the yud gimmel ikrim.

And I fail to understand your second point why the rest of the velt sees chabad to be contrary to the ikrim
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 07:41:56 PM
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.
Utter stupidity.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 10, 2019, 07:45:12 PM
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.
So basically "problematic" = "so far beyond the 13 ikrim" and "[cannot] be acquired על רגל אחת" = "too deep to articulate in plain English"
Yeah, seems legit.  ::)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 07:50:53 PM
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
Sounds right.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 07:51:28 PM
So basically "problematic" = "so far beyond the 13 ikrim" and "[cannot] be acquired על רגל אחת" = "too deep to articulate in plain English"
(https://oi1335.photobucket.com/albums/w667/Moishebatchy/HERSKO_zpsvn7eugbt.png)
Ftfy
Title: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2019, 10:58:16 PM
I think that it may be beneficial for you to review exactly what I have posted in this thread with their nuances from the beginning and compare that with what some have assumed my opinion here has been. Also, don't leave the very real existence of confirmation bias out of the equation. Indignation will not solve that but dialogue may.

As little as we know each other, I think I know you well enough and definitely have respect for you. Your questions and issues raised were mostly well articulated and sounded legitimate. You lost me when you gave credibility to CBC who is best ignored, as he has his mind made up and doesn't care one bit about finding out facts.

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 10, 2019, 11:07:21 PM
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah.
If there is controversy don't blame it on Christianity. Might be a good time to lock the thread.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2019, 11:15:27 PM
Without getting caught up in all this I'd like to mention that I asked a friend in jem who in turn asked around in the office and as of yet no one can remember of such a video where the rebbe says something so blatantly that he is not moshiach. I'm gonna move on to ask the one who wrote that article (Chaim rapoport) if he can produce the source and date/video of that encounter.

Another point (although I don't consider myself a mishechist - which in itself the term needs a proper definition) for someone who went through the rebbes Torah (not even all of it) and understands/appreciates the rebbes style and sees where he speaks about the nossi hador being the moshiach shebador, as well as where he speaks about a rebbe living a chayim nitzchiim it is (in my opinion) impossible not to see (not saying agree with) where those who believe the rebbe to be moshiach get the idea from and why they feel that way, and one must say they have a valid opinion based on the rebbes teachings (unless of course you throw out the whole Sefer hasichos in addition to other sichos which some can't explain).

As a reminder I don't consider myself a mishechist at all but I do respect those who feel the rebbe to be moshiach (not talking about the Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)

Finally someone who might feel he disagrees with me (though our level of agreement is probably somewhere around 99% or thereabouts) with (intellectual) honesty.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2019, 11:19:47 PM
If there is controversy don't blame it on Christianity. Might be a good time to lock the thread.
Is it Friday yet?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 10, 2019, 11:21:17 PM
Is it Friday yet?
With your post I thought you got your days mixed up. You sure got the blame mixed up.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 11, 2019, 01:07:29 AM
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.

So if R' @Dan hasn't picked one up since high school, and starts name calling (CBC style) then we should all follow his מעשה רב. Never mind that said quote is brought in the name of R' Yoel Kahan, and while I don't recall hearing it from him, having worked with him in the late 80s and early 90s, I wouldn't put the quote beyond him. Was definitely his style. (There was an Israeli TV show about the topic which starts off with an excerpt of an interview with his Rebbetzin where she makes sure that the interviewer records her response as being certain that the Rebbe is Moshiach. If I can find it, I could post it as long as @Dan will allow it).

It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?

So if there are two "factions" the other one is extremist fringe.  ::)

To quote Rabbi Posner again, he has two things to say about the political factions:
אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).  And אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 11, 2019, 08:24:57 AM

אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).

I'm not sure how political factions became part of this discussion, but in the context of this thread, great response! "Sure, you're following the Rebbe's explicit instructions, but your doing it for the wrong reasons..."
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 09:56:04 AM
As little as we know each other, I think I know you well enough and definitely have respect for you. Your questions and issues raised were mostly well articulated and sounded legitimate. You lost me when you gave credibility to CBC who is best ignored, as he has his mind made up and doesn't care one bit about finding out facts.



If I would not give credence to @churnbabychurn yet give credence to you would that be intellectually honest? He has his mind made up but you don't?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 11, 2019, 10:12:50 AM
The fun thing about *someone else's* שיטות, is that it's pronounced the same in Hebrew and English.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 10:15:06 AM
starts name calling (CBC style)
You and CBC are the DDF kanoim. Don't be shy about it.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 10:17:21 AM
So if there are two "factions" the other one is extremist fringe.  ::)

אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).  And אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
Don't forget to correct Benny that these guys are actually not extremists:
http://crownheights.info/communal-matters/590043/r-yoel-kahan-farbrengen-interrupted-hoodlums/
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 11, 2019, 11:28:40 AM
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

Its easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Its like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

There are several versions of the story, I think I saw it mentioned about the מאור עינים:

אדמו"ר התארח פעם על שולחנם של בני זוג כפריים, והחל לשוחח עימם על אודות ביאת המשיח. "הבה נתפלל יחד שהמשיח יבוא", הציע לבני הזוג. כסבור היה הרבי שתפילה זכה של אנשים פשוטים יכולה לחולל נפלאות, אבל לכפרי היו תכניות אחרות. הוא נמלך ברעייתו, ולבסוף הגיב: "רֶבֶּ'ה, המשיח זה רעיון רע. יש לנו משק מכניס, עם לולי תרנגולות שמטילות ביצים, ורפת של פרות שמניבות חלב. המשיח יאלץ אותנו לעזוב הכל ויעלה אותנו לארץ ישראל. במחילה, רֶבֶּ'ה, שיעשה טובה המשיח, ויגנוז את התכניות שלו".

הרבי נדהם. הוא ניסה לשכנע את בני הזוג בדרך אחרת: "נכון", אמר להם, "יש לכם רפת ולולים ותרנגולים. אבל מפעם לפעם מגיעים הקוזקים הגויים, והם בוזזים וחומסים לכם הכל. זה סבל גדול עבורכם. נזק של ממש. כשיבוא המשיח, כבר לא יהיו קוזקים. כדאי לכם!"

שוב נמלך הכפרי בכפריתו הנבערת, ולאחר דקות ארוכות של התלחשות, חזרו השניים אל הרבי כשבפיהם החלטה גאונית: "הרבי", אמרו, "תתפלל שהמשיח ייקח את הקוזקים לארץ ישראל וישאיר אותנו כאן עם הפרות והתרנגולות. זה הכי טוב".

אח, נאנח האדמו"ר. אני חשבתי שקשה להוציא את היהודים מהגלות עכשיו התברר לי שקשה שבעתיים להוציא את הגלות מתוך היהודים

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 11, 2019, 11:30:11 AM
Its easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Its like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

There are several versions of the story, I think I saw it mentioned about the מאור עינים:

אדמו"ר התארח פעם על שולחנם של בני זוג כפריים, והחל לשוחח עימם על אודות ביאת המשיח. "הבה נתפלל יחד שהמשיח יבוא", הציע לבני הזוג. כסבור היה הרבי שתפילה זכה של אנשים פשוטים יכולה לחולל נפלאות, אבל לכפרי היו תכניות אחרות. הוא נמלך ברעייתו, ולבסוף הגיב: "רֶבֶּ'ה, המשיח זה רעיון רע. יש לנו משק מכניס, עם לולי תרנגולות שמטילות ביצים, ורפת של פרות שמניבות חלב. המשיח יאלץ אותנו לעזוב הכל ויעלה אותנו לארץ ישראל. במחילה, רֶבֶּ'ה, שיעשה טובה המשיח, ויגנוז את התכניות שלו".

הרבי נדהם. הוא ניסה לשכנע את בני הזוג בדרך אחרת: "נכון", אמר להם, "יש לכם רפת ולולים ותרנגולים. אבל מפעם לפעם מגיעים הקוזקים הגויים, והם בוזזים וחומסים לכם הכל. זה סבל גדול עבורכם. נזק של ממש. כשיבוא המשיח, כבר לא יהיו קוזקים. כדאי לכם!"

שוב נמלך הכפרי בכפריתו הנבערת, ולאחר דקות ארוכות של התלחשות, חזרו השניים אל הרבי כשבפיהם החלטה גאונית: "הרבי", אמרו, "תתפלל שהמשיח ייקח את הקוזקים לארץ ישראל וישאיר אותנו כאן עם הפרות והתרנגולות. זה הכי טוב".

אח, נאנח האדמו"ר. אני חשבתי שקשה להוציא את היהודים מהגלות עכשיו התברר לי שקשה שבעתיים להוציא את הגלות מתוך היהודים
Why is that a litvak problem vs. everyone else?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 12:08:09 PM
Why is that a litvak problem vs. everyone else?
How do you know that even those who are busy all day with moshiach aren't simply doing more lip service? Why does some story about some villagers show anything about Litvaks anyhow? How would ypou know whether it is lipservice or sincere?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 11, 2019, 12:17:16 PM
Don't forget to correct Benny that these guys are actually not extremists:
http://crownheights.info/communal-matters/590043/r-yoel-kahan-farbrengen-interrupted-hoodlums/ (http://crownheights.info/communal-matters/590043/r-yoel-kahan-farbrengen-interrupted-hoodlums/)
So you're going with the "everyone who disagrees with me is part of the extremist fringe" argument?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 12:18:11 PM
So you're going with the "everyone who disagrees with me is part of the extremist fringe" argument?
Why would he be the only exception?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 11, 2019, 12:29:21 PM
How do you know that even those who are busy all day with moshiach aren't simply doing more lip service? Why does some story about some villagers show anything about Litvaks anyhow? How would ypou know whether it is lipservice or sincere?

There are no guarantees, and Im sure that there are many in Chabad who are just doing more frequent lip-service than non-Chabad (I didnt mean litvak), but the fact that the word moshiach is barely in our everyday lexicon is telling, and fairly disturbing. In part this may be due to the tendency among many to bash the whole movement like CBC almost to the point that moshiach becomes associated with something that we dont hold of which is a hashkafic problem in its own right.

 The story is just very relatable, as all one has to do is open up the latest glossy weekly advertising circular and see what is going on, to realize that many of us wouldnt articulate it that way, but we would also rather have our sheep and goats and chickens, and ship moshiach off to Yerushalayim.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 11, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
There are no guarantees, and Im sure that there are many in Chabad who are just doing more frequent lip-service than non-Chabad (I didnt mean litvak), but the fact that the word moshiach is barely in our everyday lexicon is telling, and fairly disturbing. In part this may be due to the tendency among many to bash the whole movement like CBC almost to the point that moshiach becomes associated with something that we dont hold of which is a hashkafic problem in its own right.

 The story is just very relatable, as all one has to do is open up the latest glossy weekly advertising circular and see what is going on, to realize that many of us wouldnt articulate it that way, but we would also rather have our sheep and goats and chickens, and ship moshiach off to Yerushalayim.
Its easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Its like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

I'm confused, is this specifically a Non-Chabad problem or not?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 12:43:41 PM
There are no guarantees, and Im sure that there are many in Chabad who are just doing more frequent lip-service than non-Chabad (I didnt mean litvak), but the fact that the word moshiach is barely in our everyday lexicon is telling, and fairly disturbing. In part this may be due to the tendency among many to bash the whole movement like CBC almost to the point that moshiach becomes associated with something that we dont hold of which is a hashkafic problem in its own right.

 The story is just very relatable, as all one has to do is open up the latest glossy weekly advertising circular and see what is going on, to realize that many of us wouldnt articulate it that way, but we would also rather have our sheep and goats and chickens, and ship moshiach off to Yerushalayim.
There is a not insignificant number of ads about how you can get sheep and goats and chickens in yerushalayim as well. Not sure why you feel that it is not in the lexicon.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 12:46:41 PM
I can't recall hearing the word Moshiach while in the litvishe elementary school I went to, other than to make fun of Chabad or the Rebbe.

I have non chabad friends who openly say that they don't beleive moshiach is a real concept. You would never hear a Lubavitcher speak like that.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 12:52:10 PM
I can't recall hearing the word Moshiach while in the litvishe elementary school I went to, other than to make fun of Chabad or the Rebbe.

Not my experience other than maybe the focus being more on גאולה שלימה than on moshiach. Every single speech at every bar mitzva and sheva brachos as well as shmoozing and events etc ends with mention of geulah. No discussion of when it will come or who it is at all other than of hope that right away. Very machmir on תפח רוחם של מחשבי קיצין
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 12:53:48 PM
I can't recall hearing the word Moshiach while in the litvishe elementary school I went to, other than to make fun of Chabad or the Rebbe.

I have non chabad friends who openly say that they don't beleive moshiach is a real concept. You would never hear a Lubavitcher speak like that.
Not sure about your friends, but I would say that even if lack of צפיתה לישועה is a problem among some Jews, it isn't a beshita. It may be partially because of reaction to those who went overboard with moshiach etc, but that isn't really the point. Either way, nobody is saying that everyone is perfect, all parts of klal yisroel have nisyonos, everyone may be different, but we are here to work on those things. The question at hand is a particular shita and whether it is institutionalized or just a fringe. Not sure why this is an opportunity to bring out other people's flaws as well.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 11, 2019, 12:59:15 PM
There are no guarantees, and Im sure that there are many in Chabad who are just doing more frequent lip-service than non-Chabad (I didnt mean litvak), but the fact that the word moshiach is barely in our everyday lexicon is telling, and fairly disturbing. In part this may be due to the tendency among many to bash the whole movement like CBC almost to the point that moshiach becomes associated with something that we dont hold of which is a hashkafic problem in its own right.

 The story is just very relatable, as all one has to do is open up the latest glossy weekly advertising circular and see what is going on, to realize that many of us wouldnt articulate it that way, but we would also rather have our sheep and goats and chickens, and ship moshiach off to Yerushalayim.

You might be on to something. I actually think that you are somewhat like minded with Rabbi Posner (despite your original responses to the interview - and take my word for it). Take my word.  ;)

As a matter of fact, in case anyone missed it, THAT seems to be his main point. He is expecting from himself intellectual honesty, and that same intellectual honesty is what leads him to say that he has no answers to certain questions. His term for those that seem to have all the answers "Chabadniks" rather than "Lubavitchers". He is not saying that he is right and others are wrong (and neither am I), what he is doing is pointing out apparent problems/conflicts in the knowledge and belief system. Unfortunately some people choose to placate those with various methods. His way (which I believe he considers the "Lubavitch" way) is to be fully honest about things, even if they are unfcomfortable. And when I have seemingly contradictory conclusions based on various baselines that I consider to be true, his choice of dealing with it is to explicitly accept what he sees and hears from the Rebbe, based on how he was brought up and educated, rather than choosing the alternative, and acknowledging that it doesn't make sense based on his (or our) limited שכל.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 11, 2019, 12:59:41 PM
I'm confused, is this specifically a Non-Chabad problem or not?

I think that Chabad makes a far greater attempt to make it real and part of their lives. Lakewood does an amazing job of making Limud Hatorah part of the average persons life, even those who have been in the workforce for many years. The sefardic community is amazing in their respect for their leaders and fidelity to mesorah. Chassidim are able to put such significance amd meaning into otherwise parts mundane tasks. There are communities that really put a focus on chessed. Others on ahavas yisroel. The point is that there is so much to learn from so many different segments of klal yisroel that it makes no sense to negate others who have different viewpoints. ( If there is a specific hashkafic issue one can and should speak out against it, but that does not give license to write off whole groups of Yidden.)We can gain so much more by learning from everyone else to improve our own avodas Hashem.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 01:03:03 PM


( If there is a specific hashkafic issue one can speak out against it, but that does not give license to write off whole groups of Yidden.We can gain so much more by learning from everyone else to improve our own avodas Hashem.
+
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 01:23:28 PM
Not my experience other than maybe the focus being more on גאולה שלימה than on moshiach.
יב - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. בְּבִיאַת הַמָּשִׁיחַ. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיִּתְמַהְמֵהַּ. עִם כָּל זֶה אֲחַכֶּה לּוֹ בְּכָל יוֹם שֶׁיָּבוֹא
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 01:32:36 PM
יב - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. בְּבִיאַת הַמָּשִׁיחַ. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיִּתְמַהְמֵהַּ. עִם כָּל זֶה אֲחַכֶּה לּוֹ בְּכָל יוֹם שֶׁיָּבוֹא
right
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gingyguy on July 11, 2019, 02:29:04 PM


I have non chabad friends who openly say that they don't beleive moshiach is a real concept. You would never hear a Lubavitcher speak like that.
While it is possible that they dont think about it enoughI have never heard any of my friends say anything remotely similar to that.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 02:39:50 PM
Its easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Its like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.


This was obviously written by someone who's מצפה לישועה, he wants it so much, yet he singles out Litvaks on a nationwide problem, last I checked שנאת חנם is what's holding back משיח
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 02:41:42 PM
Something tells me this thread will be locked real soon
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
I can't recall hearing the word Moshiach while in the litvishe elementary school I went to, other than to make fun of Chabad or the Rebbe.

I have non chabad friends who openly say that they don't beleive moshiach is a real concept. You would never hear a Lubavitcher speak like that.
Nor would you hear any believing Jew say that. Someone who says that is a Halachic Apikores.

On the trains to Auchwitz they sang Ani Maamin. It had nothing to do with Chabad. What's with this Chabad self-aggrandizing?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 02:50:56 PM
Nor would you hear any believing Jew say that. Someone who says that is a Halachic Apikores.

On the trains to Auchwitz they sang Ani Maamin. It had nothing to do with Chabad. What's with this Chabad self-aggrandizing?
Nobody is self-aggrandizing, follow the thread.
I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gingyguy on July 11, 2019, 02:53:10 PM

I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
but that does not make them in to kofrim in moshiach, (even though it is Onoas devarim)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 11, 2019, 02:56:09 PM
Something tells me this thread will be locked real soon
Please no as I am starting to understand a little bit.  :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 11, 2019, 03:06:30 PM
Please no as I am starting to understand a little bit.  :)
It's not what you think it is. :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 11, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
This was obviously written by someone who's מצפה לישועה, he wants it so much, yet he singles out Litvaks on a nationwide problem, last I checked שנאת חנם is what's holding back משיח

It is a nationwide problem. Its not exclusive to the Litvaks. Chabad happens to stand out as a group that makes it into an everyday concept. The problem is not really new and pointing it out is certainly not rooted in sinas chinam.

 ר' יעקב עמדין בהקדמה לסידורו: "שמעוני אחי ורעי המתגוררים בארץ לא לנו, על אדמה טמאה, זיכרו את ה' וירושלים תעלה על לבבכם המזכירים את ה' אל דומי לכם, תמיד לא יחשו, ואל תתנו דומי לו עד יכונן ועד ישים את ירושלים פעילה. גושו גושו, חושו ואל תחשבו להשתקע בחוץ לארץ, חס ושלום לקיים ואכלה אתכם ארץ אויבכם. זאת היתה חטאת אבותינו הראשונים שגרמו בכיה לדורות כי מאסו ארץ חמדה והיא שעמדה לנו בגלותנו המר שלא אחד עמד לכלותנו אלא בכל דור לא שקטנו ולא שלינו על צוארנו. נרדפנו יגענו ולא הונח לנו וכו' אחר ששכחנו בירת ארץ ישראל לגמרי וכו' אין איש שם על לב מבקש אהבתה דורש שלומה וטובתה ולא מצפה לראותה כמדומה לנו בהיותנו בשלווה בחוץ לארץ שכבר מצאנו ארץ ישראל וירושלים אחרת דוגמתה, על כן באו עלינו כל הרעות בשבת ישראל בארץ ספניא (גירוש ספרד) וארצות אחרות בשלוה, בכבוד גדול וכו' ושוב נתגרשו ממנה עד שלא נשאר שם ושארית לישראל בארץ ההיא. צדיק הוא ה', כי יצא מדעתם לגמרי עניין גלותם וכו' כל זאת בעטנו כי ארץ וישכחנו". שכיחת ארץ ישראל היא לא רק שורש החורבן והגלות, אלא היא השורש לצרות ישראל שבכל הדורות. רבי יעקב עמדין חוזר על זה גם בהלכות ט' באב: "וכאן הוא אומר מקום שראוי להרחיב בו הדיבור אלמלא לא היה אלא עוון זה בידינו, שאין מתאבלים על ירושלים כראוי די להאריך גלותנו והיא בעיני הסיבה הקרובה היותר גלויה עצומה וחזקה מכל ההשמדות המופלגות הגדולות הנוראות המבהילות, אשר מצאנו בגלות בכל מקומות פזורינו, על צוארנו נרדפנו, לא הונח לנו להרגיע בגויים וכו' לפי שיצא הבל הזה מליבנו בהיותנו שוקטים בארץ לא לנו, שכחנו את ירושלים וכו"

Granted his focus is on אבילות החורבן but the two are very much connected.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: stooges44 on July 11, 2019, 03:32:43 PM
Can someone bring this down to earth for the non-chabadniks here?

I'm trying to understand why this thread exploded. I tried reading the article from the op and truthfully I got lost.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 11, 2019, 05:23:56 PM
Can someone bring this down to earth for the non-chabadniks here?

I'm trying to understand why this thread exploded. I tried reading the article from the op and truthfully I got lost.
If you got lost while reading it you are just fine. I would be concerned if thought any of it made sense. No worries
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 11, 2019, 05:26:49 PM
Nobody is self-aggrandizing, follow the thread.
I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
Did any of the belief system you were taught in school penetrate?

Have you ever attempted to reconcile between the chabad belief system and the more traditional one?

You are unique that you appear to have had some real exposure to both. Many chabadskers are not so lucky, or are straight up BTs...
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 06:40:24 PM
If you got lost while reading it you are just fine. I would be concerned if thought any of it made sense. No worries
Lol
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 07:04:05 PM
Did any of the belief system you were taught in school penetrate?

Have you ever attempted to reconcile between the chabad belief system and the more traditional one?

You are unique that you appear to have had some real exposure to both. Many chabadskers are not so lucky, or are straight up BTs...
Chabad beliefs?
Like Ahavas yisroel, no matter what the yid looks like or practices?
Serving hashem not out of reward or punishment but as someone you want to be connected to?
Doing mitzvos with joy to make this world a dwelling place for hashem, which is how we can prepare for Moshiach?
Learning chassidus to know how to be closer to hashem and to fulfill what Moshiach promised the besht?
Traveling while trying to uplift the sparks in that place and realizing that there's a reason you're there?
Imbuing the mundane and our work with bechol derachecha dayayhu?

Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: whYME on July 11, 2019, 07:05:43 PM
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247 (https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247)

I just tried reading this article but couldn't make heads or tails of it. None of it makes any sense to me. Clearly something is very wrong with whoever wrote that article and anyone who understands things in that magazine.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247 (https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247)

I just tried reading this article but couldn't make heads or tails of it. None of it makes any sense to me. Clearly something is very wrong with whoever wrote that article and anyone who understands things in that magazine.
Straw man. Nobody said it doesn make sense because they don't understand it.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: th0306 on July 11, 2019, 08:43:11 PM
Chabad beliefs?
Like Ahavas yisroel, no matter what the yid looks like or practices?
Serving hashem not out of reward or punishment but as someone you want to be connected to?
Doing mitzvos with joy to make this world a dwelling place for hashem, which is how we can prepare for Moshiach?
Learning chassidus to know how to be closer to hashem and to fulfill what Moshiach promised the besht?
Traveling while trying to uplift the sparks in that place and realizing that there's a reason you're there?
Imbuing the mundane and our work with bechol derachecha dayayhu?

Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)

@Dan, Where do you send your children today's days?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 08:57:00 PM
@Dan, Where do you send your children today's days?
Unfortunately there aren't any options I'd consider to be better in CLE than HAC. It helps that the Rebbe famously gave his brocha for Chabad of CLE children to go to HAC as it is run by Yirei Shomayim.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: th0306 on July 11, 2019, 09:04:01 PM
Unfortunately there aren't any options I'd consider to be better in CLE than HAC. It helps that the Rebbe famously gave his brocha for Chabad of CLE children to go to HAC as it is run by Yirei Shomayim.
Interesting....
Are there any after school activities for such children more than in cities where there is a Chabad school, considering that they are missing much during school hours?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 09:09:00 PM
Interesting....
Are there any after school activities for such children more than in cities where there is a Chabad school, considering that they are missing much during school hours?
Education starts in the home.

I don't think the Chabad kids from CLE felt they were lacking fundamentals when they went away for mesivta/zal.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 11, 2019, 09:09:45 PM
Fish Grill DO?
Ended up staying in Lakewood longer than expected. Heading to Bingo now to check it out and pick up some cases of seltzer without bottle deposit and reduced tax. Open for a DO 'round there.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gozalim on July 11, 2019, 09:14:19 PM
Everybody said "it doesn't make sense" because they don't understand it.
FTFY
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 10:29:59 PM


Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)
I don't know about HAC, but the mainstream schools in Lakewood don't talk like that at all, and it's totally not the mehalech of Chinuch.

If I didn't respect you I'd think you're outright lying. But it probably is a mixture of exaggeration and reremembering (to fit the picture that was painted to you of non Chabad chinuch after you left HAC).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 11, 2019, 10:32:53 PM
Just got me some fresh popcorn. Please don't disappoint.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 10:34:14 PM
It is a nationwide problem. Its not exclusive to the Litvaks. Chabad happens to stand out as a group that makes it into an everyday concept. The problem is not really new and pointing it out is certainly not rooted in sinas chinam.


There's only one problem, you singled out Litvaks.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 10:34:46 PM
FTFY
Read the thread again. Literally nobody said that. Bring an example if you really think so.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 10:35:16 PM
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 10:42:27 PM
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting.


So one mussar shmooze defines non-Chabad chinuch? Basically you were exaggerating.

(BTW, IMHO they don't talk about עונש enough, שכר should be spoken about 10x more than עונש, but there's gotta be more mention of עונש, there is something called יראת העונש that I feel our דור is missing.
And like you said even more should be spoken about דביקות וקרבת אלוקים, as your בעל התניא and my שו"ע הרב said
 "איך וויל זע גאָרניסט, איך וויל ניט דיין גן-עדן, איך וויל ניט דיין עולם-הבא, איך וויל מער ניט אַז דיך אַליין")

Peace.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 11, 2019, 10:47:47 PM
So one mussar shmooze defines non-Chabad chinuch? Basically you were exaggerating.

(BTW, IMHO they don't talk about עונש enough, שכר should be spoken about 10x more than עונש, but there's gotta be more mention of עונש, there is something called יראת העונש that I feel our דור is missing.
And like you said even more spoken about דביקות וקרבת אלוקים, as your בעל התניא and my שו"ע הרב said
 "איך וויל זע גאָרניסט, איך וויל ניט דיין גן-עדן, איך וויל ניט דיין עולם-הבא, איך וויל מער ניט אַז דיך אַליין")

Peace.
No. It's a general hashkafa that is too focused on schar and onesh while losing focus on the bigger picture. That was merely what broke the camel's back.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2019, 10:52:45 PM
No. It's a general hashkafa that is too focused on schar and onesh while losing focus on the bigger picture. That was merely what broke the camel's back.
Schar and Onesh together is definitely more of a focus in non Chabad schools (btw, schar according to the Mesilas Yesharim is deveikus BaHashem). You made it seem like it's an Onesh focused chinuch.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 11, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
I don't know about HAC, but the mainstream schools in Lakewood don't talk like that at all, and it's totally not the mehalech of Chinuch.

If I didn't respect you I'd think you're outright lying. But it probably is a mixture of exaggeration and reremembering (to fit the picture that was painted to you of non Chabad chinuch after you left HAC).
+1
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
I guess this need to go in the pros and cons thread. You need to move to Lakewood.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on July 11, 2019, 11:44:42 PM
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".

Thousand apologies for you Dan, but in all honesty I believe that glorifying a goyish sports champion and yearning to get his autograph for your little boy isn't ideal for that matter. Feel free to discuss with your LOR of course.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 11, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
This has officially become the "this is my hashkafa and everyone else is wrong" thread
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2019, 12:07:06 AM
Chabad beliefs?
Like Ahavas yisroel, no matter what the yid looks like or practices?
Serving hashem not out of reward or punishment but as someone you want to be connected to?
Doing mitzvos with joy to make this world a dwelling place for hashem, which is how we can prepare for Moshiach?
Learning chassidus to know how to be closer to hashem and to fulfill what Moshiach promised the besht?
Traveling while trying to uplift the sparks in that place and realizing that there's a reason you're there?
Imbuing the mundane and our work with bechol derachecha dayayhu?

Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)
To you question - chabbad beliefs?

Yes, the things you listed are just fine. But those are not the beliefs that others will say are problematic.

You all know what I'm talking about. - Let's just say that the whole entire fundamental relationship to and with the creator that Rafi is learning in school, is radically different then the way exgingi lives and worships.  He is being taught that there is one gd that has a personal relationship with every Jew. - There is no memutza, azmus, all seeing and powerful watching rebbeh in the mix etc. Etc.

This is so very fundamental it's suprising that you seem to be so oblivious..

I know for a fact that some people just won't disclose their true belief here anyway, but I thought you were actually not playing that game... Now I don't know.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2019, 12:15:52 AM
Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".

This I have seen and heard with my own ears more than once at regular chabad mosdos.

The difference in the chinuch is just so fundamentally striking to me.. I don't even understand how a chabad kid can grow up with such mixed messages.

If the Rebbeh is the most important thing in the world at home, how can't he be worshiped at school?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 12, 2019, 01:54:01 AM
No. It's a general hashkafa that is too focused on schar and onesh while losing focus on the bigger picture. That was merely what broke the camel's back.
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 08:45:01 AM
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".
There is no way to instruct people to look down on someone while retaining respect for them. The situation got pretty out of hand in his class and I don't think it's fair to the kids to be taught that.

Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 08:46:22 AM
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
I guess that's why it's a top yeshiva.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 08:47:29 AM
To you question - chabbad beliefs?

Yes, the things you listed are just fine. But those are not the beliefs that others will say are problematic.

You all know what I'm talking about. - Let's just say that the whole entire fundamental relationship to and with the creator that Rafi is learning in school, is radically different then the way exgingi lives and worships.  He is being taught that there is one gd that has a personal relationship with every Jew. - There is no memutza, azmus, all seeing and powerful watching rebbeh in the mix etc. Etc.

This is so very fundamental it's suprising that you seem to be so oblivious..

I know for a fact that some people just won't disclose their true belief here anyway, but I thought you were actually not playing that game... Now I don't know.
Once again, you're mixing up the 99% with the 1%. But OK.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
+1
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 09:01:06 AM
+1

Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 09:05:38 AM
Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
I'd think so. All the old European Rabeim have gone to retirement and left more American ones in their place.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 09:06:23 AM
I'd think so. All the old European Rabeim have gone to retirement and left more American ones in their place.
That could explain a lot. Glad to hear things are changing.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 12, 2019, 09:08:10 AM
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(

I would tread VERY carefully there. The parent/school dynamic is a very difficult balancing act. A parent regularly  negating things that the kid hears is in school can have negative repercussions since a kid has to be bought in to his her school/teacher to a degree; otherwise they feel free to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Of course as a parent one has to guide his kids but much of that is absorbed by the child observing the parents actions and attitudes which speak even louder than words.
Ive had kids come home with statements like moshiach was about to come after the war but the ציונים drove him away when they waged the war of independence. Or goyim are..... Bale batim are... Kiddush Hashem isnt when Yidden act in a way that the goyim look up to them. Its when they do what has to be done even if it means fighting in public.״ Holding open the door for the person behind you is a שטות that the goyim invented called etiquette and theres no reason for a Jew to do it especially for a woman.״ etc.

I try to find a way to not completely negate such things to my kids while explaining that there are many different approaches in yiddishkeit and each has נקודות that are valid and can be learned from. And I will never make light of a חומרא the girls pick up in school such as how to do the eggs on Shabbos or cutting their hair short etc. as long as it does not risk being an unhealthy obsession. One of the schools I sent to has as a parent and student body that is very into the finer things in life, which I am not, but I am careful never to put it down to my child because I know that is part of sending to that school, and there were many other factors that made that school the right choice for that particular child. Of course everyone has to have their red lines, but before choosing a school I made sure as much as possible that I would be able to make my peace with it without causing conflict for my child. Otherwise I would have been forced to choose a different option.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 09:08:33 AM
Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
Because humans are flawed?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 09:13:06 AM
Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
I would tread VERY carefully there. The parent/school dynamic is a very difficult balancing act. A parent regularly  negating things that the kid hears is in school can have negative repercussions since a kid has to be bought in to his her school/teacher to a degree; otherwise they feel free to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Curious to hear how @sky121 dealt with this dilemma.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 09:13:43 AM
That could explain a lot. Glad to hear things are changing.
I remember as a little kid in 1st to 5th grade I had chassidish rabbeim (who grew up in a very sheltered environment) in a litvish school but they phased them out when they realized that the just didn't get the new generation.
It's just that the new generation is exposed to the whole wide world and telling them they will rot in hell wont help them see why they cant be like yenem. You have to explain both sides of the story and the ask "why in the world would you want what they have?"
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 09:15:51 AM
I remember as a little kid in 1st to 5th grade I had chassidish rabbeim (who grew up in a very sheltered environment) in a litvish school but they phased them out when they realized that the just didn't get the new generation.
It's just that the new generation is exposed to the whole wide world and telling them they will rot in hell wont help them see why they cant be like yenem. You have to explain both sides of the story and the ask "why in the world would you want what they have?"
Happy to hear I'm not crazy.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 12, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".

This I have seen and heard with my own ears more than once at regular chabad mosdos.

The difference in the chinuch is just so fundamentally striking to me.. I don't even understand how a chabad kid can grow up with such mixed messages.

If the Rebbeh is the most important thing in the world at home, how can't he be worshiped at school?
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 10:11:44 AM
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
+100000000000000000000......

I can't recall that I have ever once heard a schmooz focused on schar v'onesh between mesivta, bais medrash, yeshiva in EY, BMG etc. One of my rabbeim zt"l has his shmoozin published in a sefer and I don't think even one is about that. The primary focus of any schar v'onesh was how the closeness to Hashem or c"v the opposite was in itself the actual schar and onesh like the mesilas yeshorim.

I had a lubavitcher boy in a younger grade in mesivta with me in a letvishe yeshiva. He was very open about it with 770 embroidered into his tfilin bags. He may have gotten flack from other boys which was mostly regular boys teasing but I had never even once seen anything from rabbeim.
Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
+1I guess this need to go in the pros and cons thread. You need to move to Lakewood.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 12, 2019, 10:17:10 AM
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)
LOL.
But on the other hand it's not too far fetched of a thing to say. I mean why do people get brochos today? for the same reason.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: sky121 on July 12, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
Curious to hear how @sky121 dealt with this dilemma.



Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".

Thousand apologies for you Dan, but in all honesty I believe that glorifying a goyish sports champion and yearning to get his autograph for your little boy isn't ideal for that matter. Feel free to discuss with your LOR of course.

 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 12, 2019, 10:27:06 AM
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)

They don't make 'em like they used to.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 12, 2019, 10:30:02 AM

Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

Because of:

Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.

But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...

I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.

This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.

:o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: sky121 on July 12, 2019, 10:30:33 AM
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 10:31:05 AM


Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
Because I know that you and I see alike on the gentile issue hashkafikly and I was wondering how you dealt with that :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: sky121 on July 12, 2019, 10:32:03 AM
Because of:

Lol
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 10:34:03 AM
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 12, 2019, 10:34:11 AM
+100000000000000000000......

I can't recall that I have ever once heard a schmooz focused on schar v'onesh between mesivta, bais medrash, yeshiva in EY, BMG etc. One of my rabbeim zt"l has his shmoozin published in a sefer and I don't think even one is about that. The primary focus of any schar v'onesh was how the closeness to Hashem or c"v the opposite was in itself the actual schar and onesh like the mesilas yeshorim.

I had a lubavitcher boy in a younger grade in mesivta with me in a letvishe yeshiva. He was very open about it with 770 embroidered into his tfilin bags. He may have gotten flack from other boys which was mostly regular boys teasing but I had never even once seen anything from rabbeim.

There definitely is some focus on עומק הדין etc. (open up a מתנת חיים on תומר דבורה etc.)but that is geared toward those who are much more advanced and not toward your younger mesivta bochur .
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 10:35:03 AM
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".
Is all the scams Jews perpetrate on other Jews in the Jewish community the low lifestyle you are talking about?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 10:37:16 AM
Is all the scams Jews perpetrate on other Jews in the Jewish community the low lifestyle you are talking about?
That's the flipside of stressing that we are special. I certainly trusted too many Jews over the years to do the right thing because they were Jewish. But you live and learn.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 10:50:56 AM
There definitely is some focus on עומק הדין etc. (open up a מתנת חיים on תומר דבורה etc.)but that is geared toward those who are much more advanced and not toward your younger mesivta bochur .
Of course it is discussed and learned. Schar v'onesh is one of the ikarim. That wasn't the foundation of why to do mitzvos  etc. though. Not sure why some seem to want to pick and choose between their ikarim.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 11:00:00 AM
That wasn't the foundation of why to do mitzvos

It certainly was constantly stressed as a foundation with many of my Rebbeim in HAC.

Also stressed by alternate universe skinny litvak Dan ;)
https://youtu.be/mDGislwQG38?t=111
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 12, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
It certainly was constantly stressed as a foundation with many of my Rebbeim in HAC.

Also stressed by alternate universe skinny litvak Dan ;)
https://youtu.be/mDGislwQG38?t=111

I thought the schar was gonna be this skinny litvak Dan

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 11:41:46 AM
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)

They don't make 'em like they used to.

There you go. I'm surprised CBC hasn't spewed anything yet.  ;)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: flyingace on July 12, 2019, 12:18:34 PM
I think regarding children and their attitude towards non-Jews it's important to remember that kids' thinking is very black and white. So, if they learn in school about a bad non-Jew, it's going to translate to non-Jews are bad, even if the teacher never said non-Jews are bad.

It takes maturity and understanding to integrate opposing views of the same issue and kids don't have that. They have to learn that individuals need to be treated respectfully regardless of their status, even while realizing that the non-Jewish way of life is not correct for us to follow.

Also, Biblically and historically(in Europe for sure) non-Jews have been the perpetrators of great harm to the Jewish people and that collective memory runs very deep.



Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dr Moose on July 12, 2019, 12:22:50 PM
Only have reading through this read did the realization hit me: Lubabitch are the original hipsters. Love and peace and drink to be merry.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 12:23:50 PM
Only have reading through this read did the realization hit me: Lubabitch are the original hipsters. Love and peace and drink to be merry.
*Drink to come to introspection and better yourself.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on July 12, 2019, 12:30:38 PM
There is no way to instruct people to look down on someone while retaining respect for them. The situation got pretty out of hand in his class and I don't think it's fair to the kids to be taught that.

Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
I'm fine with your lenient lovely approach, but I didn't express my personal feelings at all, just what is written in every Yiddish Sefer. I won't  bombard you here with quotes of them, I'll just refer you to the famous piece in  " אור החיים הק׳ פרשת פנחס על הפסוק צרור את המדינים".
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 12, 2019, 12:54:34 PM
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.

I think the issue is far from black and white. In a general sense youre absolutely correct. You want people to judge other people based on their actions, not their religion. There are very many good goyim out there, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for them, but the fact remains that their goals, aspirations, and values are far apart from ours. There are many areas that would be considered moral and good by many goyim that to us are a moral evil. Just to take the example of euthanasia, its hard to be nuanced and convey to a kid that killing a teenage girl in the Netherlands because she wanted to die is an evil act but the people who did it are good and kind people. There are a host of other social and moral issues where the same tension would play out. The fact that the majority of western civilization considers man to be a biological creature like any other animal that roams the planet is not just a theoretical exercise. It has practical  impacts in so many moral and social constructs that it cannot be disregarded, leaving religion out of the picture.  That does not mean that the goy is bad and the Jew is automatically good. The goy may be kinder, more refined, and more honest than the Jew I just did a deal with but the two are not on the same level. Of course the non-Jews honesty and kindness is cause for me to relate to him in reciprocal fashion, which I may not do in the case of a Jew who is dishonest. But that is not the entire picture.

I am מחויב to relate to one as אחיך with all the attendant obligations but not to the better goy. Perhaps this is what is meant to be conveyed but is given over in an unnuanced and therefore grossly distorted way.

One additional point.Perhaps it was just my experience but from what I saw there is also another issue with kids having a hard time drawing the line between respecting a goy for who he is and respecting his opinions. For example, when my son and his friends were at an age where they tend to  idolize football players, they not only appreciated the talents of the particular player, they actually gave weight to his opinions, for example giving some credence to the ideas behind taking the knee because their hero did it. Other questionable or objectionable ideas espoused by political figures, sports stars, etc. were also giving credence by the boys simply because of who espoused them. Aside from the very real issue of לא תחנם which is not that easy to get around, these other potential pitfalls may be motivating mechanchim to go to the extreme. I still dont think its justifiable, and at some  point you have to give the kids a honest, nuanced, picture that doesnt label goyim vs Jews as bad vs good because you are doing a disservice to the many honest good goyim out there as well as hindering the kids ability to function in society.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: gingyguy on July 12, 2019, 01:06:16 PM
*Drink to come to introspection and better yourself.
as long as your drinking who cares why . Lchaim!
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 12, 2019, 01:19:02 PM



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.

There definitely is room for respectful disagreement but if it gets to the point where the kid is calling the teacher a liar etc. then it is time to re-calibrate the message.

In regards to chumrahs that kids bring home from school, my kids know I have gone through the relevant halachos and can pasken on my own so when they come home with something they were told I dont find it threatening.  I can tell them that there certainly are those who hold that way and if they would like to use a shinui when doing the eggs to accomodate those shittos that is great. They know there are other opinions that dont require it and they will soon know so that I can listen to other opinions without feeling threatened which is a valuable lesson on its own. And every so often something comes up that I may have learned 10 years ago and seeing now that there is a point in doing things slightly different and in that instance Ill adopt it and thank my kid for it.

I also know that I am not perfect so if my kid comes home and says based on what they learned in school they would prefer not to take a trip to Six Flags, or Manhattan, etc. I tell them I respect them for it. It doesnt mean the family wont go but they have the leeway to take what they are learning to a practical level and have their parents respect for doing so. I can think of several of my friends who came from more modern backgrounds and it was their parents respect for them and pride in their growth in areas that the parents were not holding in that allowed them to become really successful later on in life, so I always try to keep that in mind with my own kids.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: cmey on July 12, 2019, 06:00:50 PM
I think the issue is far from black and white. In a general sense youre absolutely correct. You want people to judge other people based on their actions, not their religion. There are very many good goyim out there, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for them, but the fact remains that their goals, aspirations, and values are far apart from ours. There are many areas that would be considered moral and good by many goyim that to us are a moral evil. Just to take the example of euthanasia, its hard to be nuanced and convey to a kid that killing a teenage girl in the Netherlands because she wanted to die is an evil act but the people who did it are good and kind people. There are a host of other social and moral issues where the same tension would play out. The fact that the majority of western civilization considers man to be a biological creature like any other animal that roams the planet is not just a theoretical exercise. It has practical  impacts in so many moral and social constructs that it cannot be disregarded, leaving religion out of the picture.  That does not mean that the goy is bad and the Jew is automatically good. The goy may be kinder, more refined, and more honest than the Jew I just did a deal with but the two are not on the same level. Of course the non-Jews honesty and kindness is cause for me to relate to him in reciprocal fashion, which I may not do in the case of a Jew who is dishonest. But that is not the entire picture.

I am מחויב to relate to one as אחיך with all the attendant obligations but not to the better goy. Perhaps this is what is meant to be conveyed but is given over in an unnuanced and therefore grossly distorted way.

One additional point.Perhaps it was just my experience but from what I saw there is also another issue with kids having a hard time drawing the line between respecting a goy for who he is and respecting his opinions. For example, when my son and his friends were at an age where they tend to  idolize football players, they not only appreciated the talents of the particular player, they actually gave weight to his opinions, for example giving some credence to the ideas behind taking the knee because their hero did it. Other questionable or objectionable ideas espoused by political figures, sports stars, etc. were also giving credence by the boys simply because of who espoused them. Aside from the very real issue of לא תחנם which is not that easy to get around, these other potential pitfalls may be motivating mechanchim to go to the extreme. I still dont think its justifiable, and at some  point you have to give the kids a honest, nuanced, picture that doesnt label goyim vs Jews as bad vs good because you are doing a disservice to the many honest good goyim out there as well as hindering the kids ability to function in society.

And with this we go into Shabbos parshas chukas where chazal darshen אדם כי ימות- אתם קרויים אדם, one of the claims that the anti semites brought in the Mendel  Beilis blood libel trial.

http://www.acheinu.co.il/?p=6603

אחת הטענות העיקריות של הכומר הקתולי היתה הטענה שהיהודים אינם מתייחסים עלה גויים כאל בני אדם. לשם כך הוא ציטט את דברי חז"ל במסכת יבמות דף סא'. "אתם קרויים אדם ואין עובדי כוכבים קרויים אדם". רק היהודים נקראים אדם, ולא הגויים, אם כן, אין זה פלא, כך טען הכומר האנטישמי, שהיהודים אינם חוששים לרצוח נער גוי לצורך פולחן דתי.
להשיב על הטענה של הכומר פראנייטיס הוזמן הרב מאיר שפירא שהיה חבר הפרלמנט הפולני, ראש ישיבת חכמי לובלין המפורסמת, וכן מחולל רעיון הדף היומי. כמו"כ הוזמן גם רבה הראשי של מוסקבה, רבי יעקב מזא"ה, להשיב על טענותיו של הכומר.

הרב מאיר שפירא הסביר את דברי התלמוד כך: "בלשון הקודש ישנם ארבע מילים נרדפות שמתארות יצור אנושי: "אנוש", "גבר", "איש" ו"אדם".
שלושת השמות הראשונים ניתנים לקריאה הן בלשון יחיד והן בלשון רבים, הסביר רבי מאיר שפירא. אנוש אנשים, גבר גברים, איש אישים. אבל את המילה 'אדם' אי אפשר לומר בלשום רבים, אי אפשר לומר "אדמים".

"הלוא תבין כבוד השופט", טען רבי מאיר שפירא, "הגויים מוגדרים כיחידים כל אחד לעצמו. הם יכולים להיות קבוצה של אחדים רבים, אבל העם היהודי הוא יחיד אחד גדול, העם היהודי כולו מאוחד, עם גוף אחד ונשמה אחת, ולכן התואר "אדם", מתאים רק ליהודים ולא לגויים".

רבי מאיר שפירא גם הוכיח את דבריו: "הבט נא כבוד השופט, אני רב פולני, ורבי יעקב מאז"ה הוא רב מרוסיה, שנינו גם יחד הוזעקנו מקצווי ארץ להגיע לאוקראינה כדי לסייע ליהודי ששנינו לא מכירים בכלל ומעולם לא דיברנו עמו, ושנינו לא חשבנו רגע אלא מיהרנו להגיע כדי לסייע לו. האין זאת הוכחה ברורה לטענת חכמנו זכרונם לברכה שהעם היהודי הוא אדם אחד?!".

**
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chinagel on July 12, 2019, 06:03:55 PM
Wasn't R' Meir Shapiro. Regardless, it's just one pshat...
You do see from the story to use some sense about when and where you want certain things brought up.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2019, 06:08:41 PM
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
So you were taught they are inherently good?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2019, 06:13:59 PM
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
Personally I think onesh is not discussed anywhere near enough.

Reshis chochmas Shar hagehenom is a must read every once in a while

These days it's almost taboo. Absurd.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
So you were taught they are inherently good?
Taught that everything Hashem creates is for an inherent reason and purpose.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: cmey on July 12, 2019, 07:29:44 PM
Wasn't R' Meir Shapiro. Regardless, it's just one pshat...
You do see from the story to use some sense about when and where you want certain things brought up.

Some versions have a young Rav Meir Shapiro sending a letter to the Rav anticipating the question and providing the above answer which probably makes more sense but I quoted the above for the idea regardless of who came up with it.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2019, 07:39:44 PM
Taught that everything Hashem creates is for an inherent reason and purpose.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: th0306 on July 13, 2019, 11:41:51 PM
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
Why are these a contradiction?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 13, 2019, 11:54:03 PM
Why are these a contradiction?
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.



Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: th0306 on July 13, 2019, 11:56:31 PM
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.
There you go.....

I think the conversation should be more about what is the truth and not whether it's practical or not....
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 13, 2019, 11:58:51 PM
There is no memutza, azmus
Right, because nobody else in Judaism goes to a leader to ask for brochas and advice.

Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".
Next thing you know we'll want to make mommy, tatty, and Hashem be so proud of me! Mamesh avoda zara.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 13, 2019, 11:59:39 PM
There you go.....

I think the conversation should be more about what is the truth and not whether it's practical or not....
What does that have to do with teaching kids that goyim are bad?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 14, 2019, 12:43:07 AM
Right, because nobody else in Judaism goes to a leader to ask for brochas and advice.
Next thing you know we'll want to make mommy, tatty, and Hashem be so proud of me! Mamesh avoda zara.
Of that is what you think the concept of a brocha from a tzadik is about then we truly do have very serous problems.

I am not sure what the comparison is to that song.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: th0306 on July 14, 2019, 12:44:01 AM
What does that have to do with teaching kids that goyim are bad?
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 12:50:20 AM
Of that is what you think the concept of a brocha from a tzadik is about then we truly do have very serous problems.

I am not sure what the comparison is to that song.
A Rebbe is a paternal figure, someone you go to for advice and want to make proud. There's zero confusion about who runs the world and who is the tzaddik.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 12:50:45 AM
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....
Klipas noga is not bad.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 01:02:40 AM
Can't imagine why he didn't just write the Rebbe  ::)
https://www.facebook.com/jewishmedia/photos/pb.93810675409.-2207520000.1549643304./10158026538630410/?type=3&theater
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 14, 2019, 01:03:45 AM
A Rebbe is a paternal figure, someone you go to for advice and want to make proud. There's zero confusion about who runs the world and who is the tzaddik.
Great. Time for me to pull out.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on July 14, 2019, 01:08:42 AM
Kids acting Chutzpahdig to non Jewish teachers was a big problem since I remember, causing a great C"H, plus the kid's were busy having fun and did't pay attention quite enough. I think that's why here in the tri-state they basically changed to hiring Observant Jewish teachers for afternoon which basically solved the problem.

To the basic discussion why praising our lifestyle is not just enough, The word "praising" typically means praising the excellent over the good. the extraordinary over the ordinary. What we teach our kids is the right over the wrong, yet still teaching them to respect every person, Jew or gentile.

This way of educating worked and continues to works very good. My kids smile and act respectfully to the Doctor, mailman and so on, and so were all of us raised. I don't see any of the concerns raised here by some modern thinkers should happen in real life, besides in school where kids are looking to have fun anyway, and having strangers for teachers is a good recipe for that. Again, this problem has mostly been eliminated and was a great idea.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 14, 2019, 01:18:06 AM
Klipas noga is not bad.
What about the chazakos? Hate the action not the person? Are you required to do so?

Kids acting Chutzpahdig to non Jewish teachers was a big problem since I remember, causing a great C"H, plus the kid's were busy having fun and did't pay attention quite enough. I think that's why here in the tri-state they basically changed to hiring Observant Jewish teachers for afternoon which basically solved the problem.
In my elementary all the teachers were Jewish and it didn't make the kids more respectful. In mesivta it was Jewish and non Jewish it didn't either change anything.

If the teacher was strict then there was respect and order. That was the only factor in the students behaviour.


Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: cmey on July 14, 2019, 01:49:15 AM
Personally I think onesh is not discussed anywhere near enough.

Reshis chochmas Shar hagehenom is a must read every once in a while

These days it's almost taboo. Absurd.


 
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 14, 2019, 07:57:47 AM


Another version of this story;

Quote
On another occasion he addressed G‑d: Master of the Universe, You have placed all the earthly temptations before our eyes, while the spiritual benefits and rewards for following Your will are relegated to the books we study. That is quite unfair! Reverse the situation. Serenade our senses with an appreciation for spirituality, and consign all material benefits and pleasures to the library shelves. See, then, how few people will sin!
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 14, 2019, 09:26:12 AM
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 14, 2019, 09:29:16 AM

Nice!
But that's exactly why this part of the reshis chochma should be taught in school and reviewed periodically
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 09:35:35 AM
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"
Nope. No confusion at all.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2019, 10:27:11 AM
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.
I know you understand the other side on the coin. To bad others can't understand a simple concept.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2019, 10:28:48 AM
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"
Why don't you teach your kids about what you feel is right and leave others out of it?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2019, 10:49:28 AM
Kind of funny that the same individuals that promote this garbage are the ones that cry about anti-Semitism. Hello anyone home?  :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 14, 2019, 10:50:33 AM
Why don't you teach your kids about what you feel is right and leave others out of it?
Exactly
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on July 14, 2019, 03:20:49 PM
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....
Klipas noga is not bad.
I wouldn't expect from a fiery Chabadnick to be so badly mistaken, As the Tanye himself posits, only nefesh habehamis from Yisrael is from klipas noga, .אבל נשמת אומות העולם המה משלש קליפות הטמאות

וזה לשונו בלקו׳׳א סוף פ׳׳א: וגם מדות טובות שבטבע כל ישראל בתולדותם כמו רחמנות וג׳׳ח באות ממנה כי בישראל נפש זו דקליפה היא מקליפת נוגה שיש בה ג׳׳כ טוב והוא מסוד עץ הדעת טוב
   ורע. "משא׳׳כ נפשות אומות עכו׳׳ם הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל", כמ׳׳ש בע׳׳ח שער מ׳׳ט פ׳׳ג, וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עכו׳׳ם לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמ׳ ע׳׳פ וחסד לאומים
                                                                                                                                                .חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עכו׳׳ם עושין אינן אלא להתייהר

   ובסוף פ׳׳ו ז׳׳ל: אלא שהקליפות הן נחלקות לשתי מדריגות זו למטה מזו, "המדריגה התחתונה היא שלש קליפות הטמאות ורעות לגמרי ואין בהן טוב כלל" וכו׳ ומהן נשפעות ונמשכות נפשות כל
                                                                                                                                               .אומות עכו׳׳ם ונפשות כבעלי חיים הטמאים ואסורים באכילה וכו׳
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 03:29:37 PM
Me? Fiery? LOL.
Regardless, my point still stands. The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on July 14, 2019, 03:36:24 PM
Me? Fiery? LOL.
Regardless, my point still stands. The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
That should be the approach for all Yiden. Not suggesting otherwise at all. But how "we" should know and view the truth, I think it's clearly given in my above quote, which you have seemingly missed.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 03:59:25 PM
The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.

So there are obviously exceptions (the only question is what does the poster consider to be the exception, himself or the subject).

Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines?

It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 14, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
So there are obviously exceptions (the only question is what does the poster consider to be the exception, himself or the subject).
Or when it's against the Rebbe's clear instructions?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
Or when it's against the Rebbe's clear instructions?

That might deserve a response in and of itself, but to the point in question, you seem to be saying that this is the exception to your rule stating:

The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:58:08 PM
Wiki added summarizing first half of this thread. Now I can get to offering some responses in second part, time permitting.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 14, 2019, 06:31:52 PM
Wiki added summarizing first half of this thread. Now I can get to offering some responses in second part, time permitting.
I think my summary suffices
This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 14, 2019, 07:04:06 PM
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: yitzgar on July 14, 2019, 07:45:18 PM
Am I naive if I don't believe this?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 15, 2019, 03:01:19 AM
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.
Link?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 15, 2019, 03:23:59 AM
Link?
For what purpose?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on July 15, 2019, 06:23:30 AM
For what purpose?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/E3xXqq617AaFW/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 15, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
Link?
https://www.facebook.com/992262017582234/posts/1473281526146945/
https://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=4&topic_id=3157659&forum_id=771
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 15, 2019, 07:56:35 PM
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.

I really don't think it's appropriate for anyone to get involved in the details of the מחלוקת, and hope that cool heads prevail and all will be good.

To the point of the alleged conversation, whether it happened or not, isn't the point, but for an outsider to draw any conclusions from it is foolish. The languages allegedly used, if indeed they were used, are extremes in order to make a point, not something anyone would believe could happen.

It brought to memory the story about the Rebbe Rashab (that interestingly enough came to light through an interaction with the Gerrer Rebbe at the time).

https://chabadlibrary.org/books/maharyatz/sichos/680-7/8/5/index.htm

Quote

סיפר לנו מעשה מאדמו"ר [מהורש"ב] נ"ע זי"ע:

לפני הרבה שנים התקיימה בווארשא אסיפה מוקדמת בה נוכחו האדמו"רים מגור, מראדזמין, ואבי (כ"ק אאמו"ר) נ"ע וזי"ע, ושלשתם דנו אז השאלה ע"ד ה"צענז" אשר הכריחו אז על רבני פולין.

ועוד טרם שמע אבי (כ"ק אאמו"ר נ"ע) את כל חלקי הכוונה לטוב הענין ומעלתה של ה"צענז", אמר מפורש בפיו הקדוש, כי הוא מנגד לזה.

ואחרי אשר שאלו אותו לבאר טעמיו מדוע? למה? ומפני מה אין דעתו נוחה מזה? תשובתו היתה בלשונו הזהב: עס ווילט זיך מיר ניט.

וע"ז שאל אותו הרבי מגור בזה"ל: ליובאוויטשער רבי, צי דען אויף דעם שטעלט איר?

והשיב לו אבי: יע. איך שטעל אַף מיין משקל הראשון'דיקן "ניט וועלן", כי מילדותי וקטנותי אני הרגלתי את גופי לא לרצות את האסור על פי תורה,

וגם שיחפוץ וירצה כל אבר לקיים את המצוה השייכת לו. וברוב רגילותי הוטבע ונעשה טבע, עד אשר הנני מאמין להגוף.

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: YesThatsMe on July 19, 2019, 11:44:14 AM
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.

You obviously went to an American Litvish Yeshivah. The lack of Mussar in that system is astounding, and sure helps explain your post of today.

As aygart said, get a mentor real fast.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 19, 2019, 12:05:39 PM
You obviously went to an American Litvish Yeshivah. The lack of Mussar in that system is astounding, and sure helps explain your post of today.

As aygart said, get a mentor real fast.
I think that depends on the yeshiva.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 19, 2019, 12:29:23 PM
You obviously went to an American Litvish Yeshivah. The lack of Mussar learning Chassidus in that system is astounding, and sure helps explain your post of today.

As aygart said, get a mentor real fast.
FTFY
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 19, 2019, 12:40:38 PM
RTFY
FTFY
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 19, 2019, 12:49:56 PM
FTFY

ALOL

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15658&st=&pgnum=13

 
https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/inyono/index.htm
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 19, 2019, 01:01:43 PM
You obviously went to an American Litvish Yeshivah. The lack of Mussar in that system is astounding, and sure helps explain your post of today.

As aygart said, get a mentor real fast.
What's the ideal amount in your opinion? What did your yeshiva have?
ETA ideal amount and topics
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: YesThatsMe on July 21, 2019, 09:48:46 AM
What's the ideal amount in your opinion? What did your yeshiva have?
ETA ideal amount and topics

Went to a non-American Grand Dame Litvish Yeshiva.

- Chofetz Chaim Yomi was given daily during breakfast by a rotating Bochur. This was very geshmak.
-Half hour daily Mussar bchavrusa, the classics, with hat and jackets and very serious atmosphere.
-Twice a week 45 minute Mussar Vaad. I was there for the Tomer Devorah and Pele Yoetz cycles. I will never forget these. Best hours of my life...
-Weekly Shmuez from an old time Mashgiach, went on for a good 90 minutes, peppered with lots of Machsova.
-Weekly Tanya Vaad for the Heimishe boys (non-Chabad) by the same mashgiach, who came from a Chabad family (from before the war, the real thing)

When I (re-)met the American boys in Israel, their lack of Mussar study was super obvious.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Zalc on July 21, 2019, 10:22:27 AM
-Weekly Tanya Vaad for the Heimishe boys (non-Chabad) by the same mashgiach, who came from a Chabad family (from before the war, the real thing)

I'm just going to leave this highlighted here... (Even though it ain't Friday)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Definitions on July 21, 2019, 10:58:28 AM
Went to a non-American Grand Dame Litvish Yeshiva.

- Chofetz Chaim Yomi was given daily during breakfast by a rotating Bochur. This was very geshmak.
-Half hour daily Mussar bchavrusa, the classics, with hat and jackets and very serious atmosphere.
-Twice a week 45 minute Mussar Vaad. I was there for the Tomer Devorah and Pele Yoetz cycles. I will never forget these. Best hours of my life...
-Weekly Shmuez from an old time Mashgiach, went on for a good 90 minutes, peppered with lots of Machsova.
-Weekly Tanya Vaad for the Heimishe boys (non-Chabad) by the same mashgiach, who came from a Chabad family (from before the war, the real thing)

When I (re-)met the American boys in Israel, their lack of Mussar study was super obvious.
Fair enough.
Chofetz Chaim is considered mussar?

By me we had 20-25 minutes mussar everyday. In elul it was twice a day. Up to you if you wanted a chavrusa and what the limud was. Also very serious.

A weekly shmuez for around 45 minutes.

On shabbos/motzei shabbos there was another shmuez or two (depending on who came for shabbos) as a dvar Torah but it was more or less a mussar shmuez.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 21, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
Went to a non-American Grand Dame Litvish Yeshiva.

- Chofetz Chaim Yomi was given daily during breakfast by a rotating Bochur. This was very geshmak.
-Half hour daily Mussar bchavrusa, the classics, with hat and jackets and very serious atmosphere.
-Twice a week 45 minute Mussar Vaad. I was there for the Tomer Devorah and Pele Yoetz cycles. I will never forget these. Best hours of my life...
-Weekly Shmuez from an old time Mashgiach, went on for a good 90 minutes, peppered with lots of Machsova.
-Weekly Tanya Vaad for the Heimishe boys (non-Chabad) by the same mashgiach, who came from a Chabad family (from before the war, the real thing)

When I (re-)met the American boys in Israel, their lack of Mussar study was super obvious.
Name of yeshiva?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 01:11:07 PM
What he likely meant was:
הרה"ח ר' שלום פלדמן מכפר חב"ד (לשעבר משפיע בישיבת תות"ל חולון) קירב מישהו לחסידות. שמע היהודי לאחר זמן מה כי חסידי חב"ד מדברים שהרבי הוא עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף - למרות כל ההסברים ששמע- הוא התעצבן נורא והלך.

ר' שלום רץ אחריו והתחנן אליו כי יסע וישאל את הרבי בעצמו. כעבור זמן מה הזדמן לאותו יהודי לנסוע לארה"ב, ואיך שהוא ובהשג"פ יצא לו להכנס עם עוד חסיד חב"ד ליחידות ושאל את הרבי על זה.

ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

So to use a quote from the Alter Rebbe:

(https://i.imgur.com/sr2OgBF.png)

And just like you've seen a plausible explanation to a seemingly outrageous statement, so too you should trust that other statements that seem wrong to you, do have a plausible explanation (if merely due to the fact that כל ישראל בחזקת כשרות, and especially if you see such seemingly "outrageous statements" coming from people who are obviously otherwise זהירין בקלה כבחמורה).

And now can we see an apology or retraction of sorts of your original comments about the article?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
Without getting caught up in all this I'd like to mention that I asked a friend in jem who in turn asked around in the office and as of yet no one can remember of such a video where the rebbe says something so blatantly that he is not moshiach. I'm gonna move on to ask the one who wrote that article (Chaim rapoport) if he can produce the source and date/video of that encounter.

Any update from Rapoport, or should Wikipedia (and DDF) be edited to either remove this account or seriously put it in doubt, as it seems uncorroborated.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 21, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
So to use a quote from the Alter Rebbe:

(https://i.imgur.com/sr2OgBF.png)

And just like you've seen a plausible explanation to a seemingly outrageous statement, so too you should trust that other statements that seem wrong to you, do have a plausible explanation (if merely due to the fact that כל ישראל בחזקת כשרות, and especially if you see such seemingly "outrageous statements" coming from people who are obviously otherwise זהירין בקלה כבחמורה).

And now can we see an apology or retraction of sorts of your original comments about the article?
You don't say kefira and then rationalize and explain.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 05:43:52 PM
You and CBC are the DDF kanoim. Don't be shy about it.

In the spirit of this weeks Parsha, I hereby make a public מחאה on your labeling of CBC as a קנאי. It is an insult to true קנאים like פינחס.

I am not saying that I am worthy of the title, but I have seen absolutely nothing from CBC that would merit him such.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 21, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Any update from Rapoport, or should Wikipedia (and DDF) be edited to either remove this account or seriously put it in doubt, as it seems uncorroborated.
As of yet none, however there are those at jem who have heard of it but as of yet cannot find it.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 06:06:03 PM
As of yet none, however there are those at jem who have heard of it but as of yet cannot find it.

If the only source they heard of it from is Rapoport, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 21, 2019, 06:07:33 PM
If the only source they heard of it from is Rapoport, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it.
There is speculation that the video went 'missing' and by who but it hasn't been verified in any way.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 06:12:23 PM
There is speculation that the video went 'missing' and by who but it hasn't been verified in any way.

You are way too intellectually honest to go down that route.  Let's agree to give the benefit of the doubt to Rapoport, while still finding it highly doubtful, and hence cannot be used to "prove" anything.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 21, 2019, 06:15:14 PM
You are way too intellectually honest to go down that route.  Let's agree to give the benefit of the doubt to Rapoport, while still finding it highly doubtful, and hence cannot be used to "prove" anything.
Nah if you hear the alleged story with the names you'd also think of it as possiblity together with people hearing of it.
Either way if I was a pure mishechist such a video would in no way change my mind.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 06:20:05 PM
Nah if you hear the alleged story with the names you'd also think of it as possiblity together with people hearing of it.

So why not just ask Laibel Groner. He was definitely there and for sure remembers.  :P

Either way if I was a pure mishechist such a video would in no way change my mind.
What's that? (I get the first part - go to the Mikvah and you become pure, but I don't know what a mishechist is or isn't).
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chbochur on July 21, 2019, 06:25:44 PM


What's that? I don't know what a mishechist is or isn't).
https://jel.jewish-languages.org/words/1668
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 21, 2019, 09:47:22 PM
You are way too intellectually honest to go down that route.  Let's agree to give the benefit of the doubt to Rapoport, while still finding it highly doubtful, and hence cannot be used to "prove" anything.

You accuse Rabbi Rapport of lying, based on nothing but the fact that what he said contradicts your priors, and then wrap yourself in the mantle of "intellectual honesty"...
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on July 21, 2019, 11:02:49 PM
You accuse Rabbi Rapport of lying, based on nothing but the fact that what he said contradicts your priors, and then wrap yourself in the mantle of "intellectual honesty"...

You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: zh cohen on July 22, 2019, 01:06:48 AM
You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?

Instead of channelling your inner AOC (I didn't say he's lying, I just said that the thing he said is a lie), please explain how this
If the only source they heard of it from is Rapoport, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it.
and the rest of your comments in this topic is giving Rabbi Rapaport
the benefit of the doubt

and not
calling it out as untrue
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yard sale on July 22, 2019, 01:41:26 AM
So to use a quote from the Alter Rebbe:

(https://i.imgur.com/sr2OgBF.png)

And just like you've seen a plausible explanation to a seemingly outrageous statement, so too you should trust that other statements that seem wrong to you, do have a plausible explanation (if merely due to the fact that כל ישראל בחזקת כשרות, and especially if you see such seemingly "outrageous statements" coming from people who are obviously otherwise זהירין בקלה כבחמורה).

And now can we see an apology or retraction of sorts of your original comments about the article?

The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.

90% of those reading this probably dont know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....

If that is not the opinion of the author of the article I would certainly modify the above but all indications are that that is the intention of the article in which case I would reiterate the above. Im not looking to call out any group in klal Yisroel, but at the very least, the article above conveys to the masses, possessing average intelligence and reading comprehension, concepts that would be understood as kefira. That is different than a מאמר פליאה of חזל or the בעשט that the Bal Hatanya was referring to. Therefore I still do think the above comments are justified.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 22, 2019, 09:52:24 AM
You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?

I think you need to take a step back and read over this thread. You seem to be trying to be intellectually honest with yourself yet you have barely written anything more than ad hominem and other deflections. What do you think that looks like? Here we have a statement that, at face value, many here find to be very problematic in ikrei hadas. The closest anyone came to giving any sort of explanation was that he didn't mean that people should c"v stop wearing tefillin. Even then, there has been nothing but equivocation about whether or not you consider the face-value explanation to be problematic at all. It seems that the definition of intellectually honest that some here have is to not challenge them.

Here there is someone who made a statement that a person dying and no longer having a physical presence in the world, regardless of how special his neshama may have been, would be such a question in ikrei hadas as to c"v cause one to question the whole thing. That is the face value understanding of what he said. Being dan lkaf zchus gives 2 directions. One is that maybe the premise of this being problematic is wrong. Is this what you feel? Please give a clear cut answer. If you do feel this way then there is a disagreement that can be discussed if you are willing to discuss it. To skirt around it and equivocate is NOT honest discussion. Just because someone disagrees with that doesn't mean all that someone is unwilling to have an honest discussion.

THe second is that it was not really meant that way. THis means conceding that the premise is problematic and that he may have crossed some lines in chachomim hizaharu bidvorecho. Is this your understanding? I have asked this before but have not gotten any clear answers.

You need to understand what this looks like to anyone trying to be objective over here. The most anyone can do is try to be objective. Can that be tainted by pre-conceived notions? Of course. That is fine as long as you are willing to own up to that possibility and challenge those notions. Ad hominem attacks and equivocations will not challenge those at all.  Thing of your expectations from those who went to litvishe yeshivos and how they can be expected to reasonably think after reading this thread.
If anyone wants to continue via PM I am happy to do that as well. I think I had mentioned that before but did not check to confirm. No one has attempted that.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Dan on July 22, 2019, 10:51:59 AM
Thing of your expectations from those who went to litvishe yeshivos and how they can be expected to reasonably think after reading this thread.
I've been to meshichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas, but I never heard anyone say something like that.

Which leaves:
shock jock

And why you won't find BM magazine in 99% of official Chabad Houses.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on July 22, 2019, 11:14:29 AM
I've been to meshichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas, but I never heard anyone say something like that.

Which leaves:
And why you won't find BM magazine in 99% of official Chabad Houses.
This has been the most reasonable explanation, but there are those who seem to dispute that.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on September 05, 2019, 07:41:03 PM
Its easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועה is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Its like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

Seeing the following video reminded me of this post/thread

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: a mirrer on September 08, 2019, 08:05:22 AM
Any update from Rapoport, or should Wikipedia (and DDF) be edited to either remove this account or seriously put it in doubt, as it seems uncorroborated.
I don't know if this story is true, however my grandfather z"l told me a story from when he was in T"T in the mid 60's, that one purim by the farbrengen a chasid said to the rebbe "lchaim melech hamashiach" and the rebbe ignored him. A few minutes later the rebbe said a whole sicha regarding when to bench Gomel on Monday and Thursday if before kaddish or after and he was machria that minhag Chabad is after kadish and he finished off that this chasid said Gomel a few weeks ago before kadish and just like he doesn't know when Chabad is noheg to say Gomel so too he doesn't know who is mashiach.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: EliJelly on September 08, 2019, 11:36:09 AM
This might be a backdoor to this locked thread..  https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.0
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on September 08, 2019, 11:50:40 AM
I don't know if this story is true, however my grandfather z"l told me a story from when he was in T"T in the mid 60's, that one purim by the farbrengen a chasid said to the rebbe "lchaim melech hamashiach" and the rebbe ignored him. A few minutes later the rebbe said a whole sicha regarding when to bench Gomel on Monday and Thursday if before kaddish or after and he was machria that minhag Chabad is after kadish and he finished off that this chasid said Gomel a few weeks ago before kadish and just like he doesn't know when Chabad is noheg to say Gomel so too he doesn't know who is mashiach.

Just like I am not saying that Chaim Rapoport is not saying the truth, I just have no reason to believe that whatever he stated isn't based on his clouded memory of what really transpired, so too, I am not sure that the account you heard from your grandfather z"l is accurate. At least you gave a more specific מראה מקום with additional details which help find it.

The farbrengens are nowadays available online (some in audio, some in video, some in text, or a combination of the above).

I have gone to https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2666963/jewish/-.htm and searched from 5721 to 5727 (the years from the "mid 60's" that are available online in text format) in the Purim farbrengens for the word הגומל and haven't found it.

I have also glanced through 5728 through 5729 on https://www.mafteiach.app which provides links to any format available online of the sichos, and couldn't find the topic in Purim farbrengens. When you have some time, I'd appreciate if you could find the sicha you are referring to.

It is no secret that for many years the Rebbe DIDN'T ALLOW any public direct (and possibly even indirect) reference to him as Moshiach. That clearly changed in the 1990s where the Rebbe himself allowed for publication (known in Lubavitch parlance as מוגה) of sichos which referred to himself as Moshiach.

ETA: This (https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/4291882/jewish/-.htm) is probably what your grandafather z"l was referring to. (Yud Shvat 5723, s'if 38).

Audio is here: https://ashreinu.app/#/player/parentEvent~923_event~931 (The Rebbe's specific reference to the incorrect timing of הגומל which was recited apparently after the Rebbe's עליה is at about 21:00). The Rebbe DID NOT say that said person "doesn't know who moshiach is", the Rebbe DID SAY that whatever was said wasn't with his approval. Similar protests from the Rebbe were heard throughout the years UNTIL 5751, when things changed.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: a mirrer on September 09, 2019, 05:26:44 AM
Just like I am not saying that Chaim Rapoport is not saying the truth, I just have no reason to believe that whatever he stated isn't based on his clouded memory of what really transpired, so too, I am not sure that the account you heard from your grandfather z"l is accurate. At least you gave a more specific מראה מקום with additional details which help find it.

The farbrengens are nowadays available online (some in audio, some in video, some in text, or a combination of the above).

I have gone to https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2666963/jewish/-.htm and searched from 5721 to 5727 (the years from the "mid 60's" that are available online in text format) in the Purim farbrengens for the word הגומל and haven't found it.

I have also glanced through 5728 through 5729 on https://www.mafteiach.app which provides links to any format available online of the sichos, and couldn't find the topic in Purim farbrengens. When you have some time, I'd appreciate if you could find the sicha you are referring to.

It is no secret that for many years the Rebbe DIDN'T ALLOW any public direct (and possibly even indirect) reference to him as Moshiach. That clearly changed in the 1990s where the Rebbe himself allowed for publication (known in Lubavitch parlance as מוגה) of sichos which referred to himself as Moshiach.

ETA: This (https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/4291882/jewish/-.htm) is probably what your grandafather z"l was referring to. (Yud Shvat 5723, s'if 38).

Audio is here: https://ashreinu.app/#/player/parentEvent~923_event~931 (The Rebbe's specific reference to the incorrect timing of הגומל which was recited apparently after the Rebbe's עליה is at about 21:00). The Rebbe DID NOT say that said person "doesn't know who moshiach is", the Rebbe DID SAY that whatever was said wasn't with his approval. Similar protests from the Rebbe were heard throughout the years UNTIL 5751, when things changed.
thank you for finding it because for years I tried looking for it and couldn't find such a sicha
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
If that is not the opinion of the author of the article I would certainly modify the above but all indications are that that is the intention of the article in which case I would reiterate the above. Im not looking to call out any group in klal Yisroel, but at the very least, the article above conveys to the masses, possessing average intelligence and reading comprehension, concepts that would be understood as kefira. That is different than a מאמר פליאה of חזל or the בעשט that the Bal Hatanya was referring to. Therefore I still do think the above comments are justified.

Well, if you are really interested in finding out the truth, Rabbi Posner will be arriving in NY today for the annual Kinus Hashluchim. If you make the small effort to come to Crown Heights I'm sure we can arrange for you to meet him and question him one on one (or apologize for your accusations). I don't know how long he will be staying, but I would assume he's in no great rush to leave now that unfortunately his Rebbetzin passed away.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on December 25, 2019, 10:42:11 PM
Well, if you are really interested in finding out the truth, Rabbi Posner will be arriving in NY today for the annual Kinus Hashluchim. If you make the small effort to come to Crown Heights I'm sure we can arrange for you to meet him and question him one on one (or apologize for your accusations). I don't know how long he will be staying, but I would assume he's in no great rush to leave now that unfortunately his Rebbetzin passed away.
Needless to say, none of those criticizing Rabbi Posner's quote attempted to inquire with him and seek an explanation.

However in an interesting twist someone I trust told me that he recently saw the video described by Chaim Rapoport (and subsequently heard from another trusted individual). I hope to be able to see it myself and listen carefully to the words being said (one of those who saw it said that the Rebbe's sentence seems to be interrupted). I doubt that I will be able to obtain a copy, but if I manage to view it I will bez"h report back my impression.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 25, 2019, 10:50:34 PM
Needless to say, none of those criticizing Rabbi Posner's quote attempted to inquire with him and seek an explanation.

However in an interesting twist someone I trust told me that he recently saw the video described by Chaim Rapoport (and subsequently heard from another trusted individual). I hope to be able to see it myself and listed carefully to the words being said (one of those who saw it said that the Rebbe's sentence seems to be interrupted). I doubt that I will be able to obtain a copy, but if I manage to view it I will bez"h report back my impression.
disingenuous
/ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/

noun
A post on DDF by ExGingi.

"there's another disingenuous on Just Schmooze."
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on December 25, 2019, 11:08:39 PM
disingenuous
/ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/

noun
A post on DDF by ExGingi.

"there's another disingenuous on Just Schmooze."

As long as ExGingi is disingenuous, facts don't matter.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2019, 11:32:06 PM


Needless to say, none of those criticizing Rabbi Posner's quote attempted to inquire with him and seek an explanation.


Ftr, this is only referring to this specific way of seeking explanation.

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: ExGingi on December 26, 2019, 01:07:27 AM
Ftr, this is only referring to this specific way of seeking explanation.

Indeed.

Which was suggested to those that doubted whether explanations given upthread are what was meant by him.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chevron on December 31, 2019, 12:26:57 AM
I should send this link to this thread to my brother but he will berate me for wasting his time with such shtusim.

Actually reading through such thorny, sticky, name calling and bashing thread.. I was saddened to find a lack of @CountValentine  wisdom here.. since he clearly knows everything.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chevron on December 31, 2019, 12:31:42 AM
I dont like BM articles, regardless of content. Their style of writing annoys me. They lack fluid prose.

Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on December 31, 2019, 12:36:24 AM
Actually reading through such thorny, sticky, name calling and bashing thread.. I was saddened to find a lack of @CountValentine  wisdom here.. since he clearly knows everything.
I hope that isn't your best cheap shot.
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chevron on December 31, 2019, 12:42:27 AM
I hope that isn't your best cheap shot.

Nope, I'm done engaging with you. Was genuinely supprised you didn't jump in :)

Cheers
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 31, 2019, 12:44:50 AM
Nope, I'm done engaging with you. Was genuinely supprised you didn't jump in :)

Cheers
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: CountValentine on December 31, 2019, 12:46:02 AM
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with
You can't make this stuff up.  :)
Title: Re: BM Magazine Articles
Post by: chevron on December 31, 2019, 12:59:11 AM
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with

Yep, especially a thread as juicy as this