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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: stooges44 on July 12, 2019, 09:54:54 AM

Title: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on July 12, 2019, 09:54:54 AM
Link: https://voice.torahumesorah.org/

(https://i.gyazo.com/d2843b29097b4d05833f801581e7468c.png)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 10:00:33 AM
Link: https://voice.torahumesorah.org/

(https://i.gyazo.com/d2843b29097b4d05833f801581e7468c.png)
Students should learn secular studies. If yeshiva were willing to actually work with the government to make this happen, there wouldn't be these draconian attempts to stop the out of control yeshivas.

The yeshivas are barely willing to teach 10-15 hours of secular studies in a week.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ADG on July 12, 2019, 10:03:37 AM


Thats why your not in charge.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 10:07:15 AM
What are the secular studies they are opposed to?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 10:08:19 AM
What are the secular studies they are opposed to?
All of them, to various degrees.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on July 12, 2019, 10:11:04 AM
What are the secular studies they are opposed to?

All of them, to various degrees.

False. They are not opposed per se, they are opposed the length of time that would be required daily/weekly. 
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 10:13:47 AM
False. They are not opposed per se, they are opposed the length of time that would be required daily/weekly.
Depends on the school and the grade.

Chassidishe schools don't teach boys much past like 5th grade, certainly not in high school.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 10:19:29 AM
Depends on the school and the grade.

Chassidishe schools don't teach boys much past like 5th grade, certainly not in high school.

Notice the letter doesn’t mention 7 hours anymore but 4.4. 
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 10:20:05 AM
What are the secular studies they are opposed to?

Anything that will allow students to not be dependent upon the community.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on July 12, 2019, 10:20:34 AM
Depends on the school and the grade.

Chassidishe schools don't teach boys much past like 5th grade, certainly not in high school.

This letter is geared towards the yeshiva community, not the chassidish
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 10:22:07 AM
Are we talking Math, English, History or something else?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 10:24:02 AM
Anything that will allow students to not be dependent upon the community.
12 hours a week was plenty for me. My yeshiva was in the upper 90s percentile in NYS.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 10:25:45 AM
Are we talking Math, English, History or something else?
They care about the amount of time they will force us to teach these studies. They dont mind teaching Math, English, History and Science. They are opposed to some more extra curricular activities.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 10:27:34 AM
They care about the amount of time they will force us to teach these studies. They dont mind teaching Math, English, History and Science. They are opposed to some more extra curricular activities.
How much time is split between religious and non-religious studies?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on July 12, 2019, 10:36:12 AM
All of them, to various degrees.
Huh?  ::)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ElectricCPR on July 12, 2019, 10:36:16 AM
Are we talking Math, English, History or something else?
Gender Studies!
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Moe Ginsburg on July 12, 2019, 10:42:23 AM
Are we talking Math, English, History or something else?

Something else.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 10:43:24 AM
Notice the letter doesn’t mention 7 hours anymore but 4.4.
7 hours was never real. It was a miscalculation of the number of credits needed per year vs. over a period of several years.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 10:52:37 AM
Here comes everyone showing off the chips on their shoulders....
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 10:53:57 AM
How much time is split between religious and non-religious studies?
4/3
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 11:01:42 AM
7 hours was never real. It was a miscalculation of the number of credits needed per year vs. over a period of several years.

Agree.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
12 hours a week was plenty for me. My yeshiva was in the upper 90s percentile in NYS.

I assume you are referring to the NYS Regents. What are the stats for Satmar boys?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on July 12, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
Here comes everyone showing off the chips on their shoulders....

Yup all the kids that were forced to carry in the kiddush levana cards and now years later hate the yeshivish world.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: gingyguy on July 12, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Yup all the kids that were forced to carry in the kiddush levana cards and now years later hate the yeshivish world.
ALOL! oh the memories
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
Here comes everyone showing off the chips on their shoulders....

Here comes the ad hominem attacks.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Mordyk on July 12, 2019, 11:19:04 AM
False. They are not opposed per se, they are opposed the length of time that would be required daily/weekly.
+1! People are going to hate over here. But even Christian private schools are angry about these laws
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 11:28:51 AM
+1! People are going to hate over here. But even Christian private schools are angry about these laws
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 11:31:41 AM
Here comes the ad hominem attacks.
It was actually a very direct response to this.
Anything that will allow students to not be dependent upon the community.
and not in the slightest bit ad hominem
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 11:33:02 AM
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
Why would they. That would make the breakup from 4/3 to 2.5/4.5 which is a significant difference.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
Because once they are "in" they can start imposing exactly what can be taught etc.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I am all for improving the quality of Secular education, but think that some of these standards are a bit of overreach.

I and all of my siblings went to  Litvish Yeshivas/Bais Yaakovs (I, the black sheep, went to a Chabad HS, with a similar structure). For most of my schooling our Limudei chol was setup as follows:

- 2.5-3 hours a day
- Including Math, Science, History, English
- Nearly all of our teachers from 5th grade onward were state licensed, and had masters degrees. All of them taught the same subjects at public or other private schools in the morning.
- In HS, almost all of my Secular studies teachers had Masters or PhDs. About half of them also taught in local colleges.
- We all met or exceeded local and state standards.

By contrast, my kids are in more modern schools. The only key differences:
- There's a more balanced split between Chol and Kodesh (about 3.5 hours a day each in elementary school, vs about 4 hours each in HS).
- Based on the Judaic curriculum, my kids are about 1-2 years behind were their counterparts in more yeshivish schools would be (i.e. they start learning gemara in 6th grade as opposed to late 4th early 5th).
- While most of my Yeshivish friends college aspirations were CUNY or Touro at night, my kids' and their friends' aspirations are Ivies and State schools after their gap year.

So in order to meet this standard of 4.5 hours per day - even the most modern day schools would need to give up 1 hour of limudei kodesh in order to comply*.

I think a lot of the real complaints should be focused on Yeshivas that stop teaching limudei chol in 5th  or 6th grade altogether.  When I meet people who went to Yeshivas that taught nothing - I am a bit appalled. At the same time, there is a wide gap between nothing and 4.5 hours a day.

I wish the state would focus its efforts on quality rather than quantity. i.e. administering tests to ensure students met state standards.

*It's also possible, that modern yeshivas can use the amount of time focused on teaching hebrew as a language as part of this requirement which would help them over the hump


Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: gingyguy on July 12, 2019, 11:35:43 AM
Because once they are "in" they can start imposing exactly what can be taught etc.
+1 . In laymans terms mind your own business
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 11:38:53 AM
I assume you are referring to the NYS Regents. What are the stats for Satmar boys?
What are the stats for financial success within Satmar?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 12, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
It have to do with my education, but I wasn't sure what day of the week it was today, well, thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 11:40:28 AM


I assume you are referring to the NYS Regents. What are the stats for Satmar boys?
LSATs, Regents... any standardized tests.

But very good. Make something mandatory. Don't shove a whole pie down our throats. Cleary 3 hours is enough. Dont make us do more. Maybe make the mandatory 2 hours and see how it goes. Chances are if they actually teach it those kids will be in at least the 80th percentile.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 11:40:56 AM
I am all for improving the quality of Secular education, but think that some of these standards are a bit of overreach.

I and all of my siblings went to  Litvish Yeshivas/Bais Yaakovs (I, the black sheep, went to a Chabad HS, with a similar structure). For most of my schooling our Limudei chol was setup as follows:

- 2.5-3 hours a day
- Including Math, Science, History, English
- Nearly all of our teachers from 5th grade onward were state licensed, and had masters degrees. All of them taught the same subjects at public or other private schools in the morning.
- In HS, almost all of my Secular studies teachers had Masters or PhDs. About half of them also taught in local colleges.
- We all met or exceeded local and state standards.

By contrast, my kids are in more modern schools. The only key differences:
- There's a more balanced split between Chol and Kodesh (about 3.5 hours a day each in elementary school, vs about 4 hours each in HS).
- Based on the Judaic curriculum, my kids are about 1-2 years behind were their counterparts in more yeshivish schools would be (i.e. they start learning gemara in 6th grade as opposed to late 4th early 5th).
- While most of my Yeshivish friends college aspirations were CUNY or Touro at night, my kids' and their friends' aspirations are Ivies and State schools after their gap year.

So in order to meet this standard of 4.5 hours per day - even the most modern day schools would need to give up 1 hour of limudei kodesh in order to comply*.

I think a lot of the real complaints should be focused on Yeshivas that stop teaching limudei chol in 5th  or 6th grade altogether.  When I meet people who went to Yeshivas that taught nothing - I am a bit appalled. At the same time, there is a wide gap between nothing and 4.5 hours a day.

I wish the state would focus its efforts on quality rather than quantity. i.e. administering tests to ensure students met state standards.

*It's also possible, that modern yeshivas can use the amount of time focused on teaching hebrew as a language as part of this requirement which would help them over the hump
They can use Hebrew language. I went to a centrist Modox (all boys) high school and Hebrew was the language.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 11:55:18 AM
They can use Hebrew language. I went to a centrist Modox (all boys) high school and Hebrew was the language.

Yes but my point is that even that is a stretch. Most of the MoDox Elementary schools run from 9-4 or so. If you take away time for lunch and recess, and count Hebrew as a foreign language, you still might not get to 4.5 hours of Secular.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
Because once they are "in" they can start imposing exactly what can be taught etc.
People are fine with them being "in" to get taxpayer money.

Quite simply, I think there should be a minimum standard for state money, and if is not met, that yeshiva should get $0.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 12:00:35 PM
People are fine with them being "in" to get taxpayer money.

Quite simply, I think there should be a minimum standard for state money, and if is not met, that yeshiva should get $0.
That is not unreasonable, but there can also be a middle ground.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ckmk47 on July 12, 2019, 12:06:22 PM
There are public schools that don't meet the minimum standard.
Do we close them down?  There's controversy over charter schools and they prove that they meet the standard.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 12:06:35 PM
Should this thread be merged with the Shlichus Addiction thread?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:14:58 PM
4/3
More than half the time for religion is a bit much.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 12:17:36 PM
More than half the time for religion is a bit much.
You are somewhat clueless about the topic.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Menachem613 on July 12, 2019, 12:17:58 PM
LSATs, Regents... any standardized tests.

But very good. Make something mandatory. Don't shove a whole pie down our throats. Cleary 3 hours is enough. Dont make us do more. Maybe make the mandatory 2 hours and see how it goes. Chances are if they actually teach it those kids will be in at least the 80th percentile.

We all know that the government really has no  interest in this altogether but were forced to act when confronted with the facts that some boy’s schools do not teach any secular studies. Our focus should be on those schools that are attracting this unwanted attention rather than fighting on their behalf. 
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Dr Moose on July 12, 2019, 12:18:03 PM
More than half the time for religion is a bit much.
You're not learning about religion, you're learning religious studies such as the Talmud. Yes, there's a difference as the Talmud is very stimulating.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:18:24 PM
You are somewhat clueless about the topic.
Clueless on religion?  :P
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:25:31 PM
You're not learning about religion, you're learning religious studies such as the Talmud.
So is it half full or half empty.  ::)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: LoLo on July 12, 2019, 12:26:29 PM
People are fine with them being "in" to get taxpayer money.

Quite simply, I think there should be a minimum standard for state money, and if is not met, that yeshiva should get $0.
Ahem, they all pay tax, and save the state a fortune by not using the public school system.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 12:27:36 PM
Clueless on religion?  :P

You're not learning about religion, you're learning religious studies such as the Talmud. Yes, there's a difference as the Talmud is very stimulating.

In addition, my kids don't study any religion, they study Science and Law and are taught important life skills. It is my choice that the Science and Law that my kids are taught are the Devine ones given to us over 3,000 years ago and endured all tests of time, rather than the man made versions that people want to force upon others.

We are about to celebrate the 12th of Tammuz. Which represents the victory of the freedom to educate our kids the way we have been doing for centuries, over the Bolshevik attempt at reeducating, which was deemed a worse option than jumping into a fire.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 12:28:18 PM
Ahem, we all pay tax, and save the state a fortune by not using the public school system.
You therefore have a right to receive a portion of education funding to be used for education. If it is not education by their standards then you may not have a right to that money.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:28:59 PM
In addition, my kids don't study any religion, they study Science and Law and are taught important life skills. It is my choice that the Science and Law that my kids are taught are the Devine ones given to us over 3,000 years ago and endured all tests of time, rather than the man made versions that people want to force upon others.
Is that you KAC?  :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 12:30:38 PM
Is that you KAC?  :)
Now it's my turn to be clueless.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Now it's my turn to be clueless.
“Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave alternative facts.” — Kellyanne Conway AKA-KAC
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 12:40:01 PM
Ahem, they all pay tax, and save the state a fortune by not using the public school system.

I hate when people throw this argument around - while there's definitely validity to it, I think too many people treat it as an all or nothing proposition, it's not. Some examples:

- That money is in transportation dollars for kids who get busing to Yeshivas
- That money is in subsidizing Breakfast and Lunch in some poorer communities
- That money is in the special education services that kids with IEPs receive.

So while most Yeshiva-Heavy districts spend less on average for a Yeshiva kid in their district, they do still spend a lot, likewise, while a Yeshiva Parent that is a taxpayer probably gets less value than his neighbor who's kids go to public school, but is still getting value from their school taxes

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 12:40:28 PM
You therefore have a right to receive a portion of education funding to be used for education. If it is not education by their standards then you may not have a right to that money.
Correct, the tax money is earmarked for schools. If you want it, make an approved school.

The "middle ground" would be something like 3 hrs per day. Secular studies from 230-530 isn't crazy.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Correct, the tax money is earmarked for schools. If you want it, make an approved school.

The "middle ground" would be something like 3 hrs per day. Secular studies from 230-530 isn't crazy.
An alternative middle ground we be results on various standardized test. If they can meet standards in less time all the power to them.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 12:44:03 PM
There are public schools that don't meet the minimum standard.
Do we close them down?  There's controversy over charter schools and they prove that they meet the standard.
Those schools get into hot water. There's not an entire system of schools that doesn't even attempt to teach students.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 12:44:40 PM
An alternative middle ground we be results on various standardized test. If they can meet standards in less time all the power to them.
Because there has never been regents cheating in yeshivas...

Focusing on test scores is also a terrible approach for educational reasons but that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:44:47 PM
An alternative middle ground we be results on various standardized test. If they can meet standards in less time all the power to them.
So some kids should only have 30 minutes of religious studies while others should receive 4 hours?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 12:47:46 PM
In addition, my kids don't study any religion, they study Science and Law and are taught important life skills. It is my choice that the Science and Law that my kids are taught are the Devine ones given to us over 3,000 years ago and endured all tests of time, rather than the man made versions that people want to force upon others.
To ExGingi's point - Gemara itself, fulfills several secular subjects:
- Critical Thinking  / Critical Literacy
- Law
- Discrete Mathematics (Logic)
- Although it's a stretch, it also teaches History (via aggadata) and Social Studies (i.e. forms of government, courts, social structure of second temple society)



Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 12:47:47 PM
So some kids should only have 30 minutes of religious studies while others should receive 4 hours?
HUH?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 12:48:39 PM
Because there has never been regents cheating in yeshivas...
Standardizing times would be no different.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 12:48:45 PM
So some kids should only have 30 minutes of religious studies while others should receive 4 hours?

Jewish studies aren't there in order to pass tests. Just go to Lakewood (or countless other places, but Lakewood being the biggest example) and watch thousands studying for many hours per day, for the purpose of studying. Again, this is not religion, this is divine science and law.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Jewish studies aren't there in order to pass tests. Just go to Lakewood (or countless other places, but Lakewood being the biggest example) and watch thousands studying for many hours per day, for the purpose of studying. Again, this is not religion, this is devine science and law.
You can put all the lipstick you want on the pig but it still is a pig.
Since I am clueless let me ask a simple n00b question. Where does this divine science and law come from?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 12:56:11 PM
Standardizing times would be no different.
Because they would lie about the times?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 12:58:14 PM
HUH?
I thought your point was if they can past a standardized test the amount of time they spend each day on a subject shouldn't matter.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 01:01:06 PM
I thought your point was if they can past a standardized test the amount of time they spend each day on a subject shouldn't matter.
In order to receive funding? correct. Then the time can be divided at the will of the school and the parent body. It does make sense for education funding to be predicated on education being effective more so that it makes sense for it to be predicated on time spent.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 01:02:08 PM
Because they would lie about the times?
He claims that such cheating occurs. Why would they cheat about one thing and not the other?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 12, 2019, 01:02:21 PM
People are fine with them being "in" to get taxpayer money.

Quite simply, I think there should be a minimum standard for state money, and if is not met, that yeshiva should get $0.

Personally, I disagree with the entire system of public schooling. Why is this over bloated form of welfare available to everyone?
If someone can't afford an education, then at most there should be a tuition credit available and will vary based on income.
This tuition credit will only be able to be used at schools at that meet a certain standard. Public schooling is way too expensive per child and has a terrible track record of education.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 01:02:54 PM
It does make sense for education funding to be predicated on education being effective more so that it makes sense for it to be predicated on time spent.

And therein lies the problem. Expecting anything that makes sense as an outcome of politics.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: gingyguy on July 12, 2019, 01:03:04 PM
Jewish studies aren't there in order to pass tests. Just go to Lakewood (or countless other places, but Lakewood being the biggest example) and watch thousands studying for many hours per day, for the purpose of studying. Again, this is not religion, this is devine science and law.
i think i read your posts just to catch spelling "mistakes" ;D
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:07:11 PM
In order to receive funding? correct.
That clears it up.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:14:43 PM
i think i read your posts just to catch spelling "mistakes" ;D
Maybe putting devine instead of divine he is not talking about G-d?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
i think i read your posts just to catch spelling "mistakes" ;D

Isn't this the most appropriate thread for the task. Given that I don't even have a high-school diploma, nor do any of my children. (though oldest daughter did get a GED, and that definitely cements my opinion about it being a crime to waste time on secular studies).
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:15:58 PM
You can put all the lipstick you want on the pig but it still is a pig.
Since I am clueless let me ask a simple n00b question. Where does this divine science and law come from?
Bump as I think @ExGingi missed my clueless question.  :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 01:17:46 PM
And therein lies the problem. Expecting anything that makes sense as an outcome of politics.
Where did you see such an expectation?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 01:19:42 PM
Time is not a be all and end all, but I think a people who understand that time is an important part of the learning process for Torah could understand that spending more time on math makes one better at math etc.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:20:32 PM
Only a matter of time for JS!
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:22:52 PM
Isn't this the most appropriate thread for the task. Given that I don't even have a high-school diploma, nor do any of my children. (though oldest daughter did get a GED, and that definitely cements my opinion about it being a crime to waste time on secular studies).
No need to tell us you don't have a HS diploma as we can tell from this logic.  :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
Bump as I think @ExGingi missed my clueless question.  :)

Here's some background reading (though you'd probably need to read the entire story, not just this excerpt).

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2990/jewish/Chapter-IV-The-Interview.htm

Quote
"What is your vocation?"

"I am involved in studies, the study of the knowledge of G‑dliness known as Chassidus, and the study of Jewish Law and its observance in accordance with the Jewish religion."
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:26:32 PM
Here's some background reading (though you'd probably need to read the entire story, not just this excerpt).

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2990/jewish/Chapter-IV-The-Interview.htm
All I did was ask a very basic simple question. If you don't want to answer it I fully understand.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 01:28:20 PM
No need to tell us you don't have a HS diploma as we can tell from this logic.  :)

Wow. First time I ever heard that logical reasoning has anything to do with a high school diploma. I guess that's why some people's logic might be so flawed, as it comes from their high school diploma.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 01:32:18 PM
Wow. First time I ever heard that logical reasoning has anything to do with a high school diploma. I guess that's why some people's logic might be so flawed, as it comes from their high school diploma.
Not mine.  ;)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 01:33:45 PM
More than half the time for religion is a bit much.
The 3 hours is clearly getting more than just the job done.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 12, 2019, 01:36:41 PM
An alternative middle ground we be results on various standardized test. If they can meet standards in less time all the power to them.
A yeshiva that teaches a proper 3 hours of chol 4 days a week will ace a standardized test.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on July 12, 2019, 01:39:53 PM
I hate when people throw this argument around - while there's definitely validity to it, I think too many people treat it as an all or nothing proposition, it's not. Some examples:

- That money is in transportation dollars for kids who get busing to Yeshivas
- That money is in subsidizing Breakfast and Lunch in some poorer communities
- That money is in the special education services that kids with IEPs receive.

So while most Yeshiva-Heavy districts spend less on average for a Yeshiva kid in their district, they do still spend a lot, likewise, while a Yeshiva Parent that is a taxpayer probably gets less value than his neighbor who's kids go to public school, but is still getting value from their school taxes
-1

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 01:41:34 PM
Bump as I think @ExGingi missed my clueless question.  :)
Think you may have missed my post from earlier...

To ExGingi's point - Gemara itself, fulfills several secular subjects:
- Critical Thinking  / Critical Literacy
- Law
- Discrete Mathematics (Logic)
- Although it's a stretch, it also teaches History (via aggadata) and Social Studies (i.e. forms of government, courts, social structure of second temple society)

.. studying Talmud isn't just like reading a textbook, but rather builds logic and reasoning skills, and teaches history, math, law and social studies along the way.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 01:49:43 PM
To ExGingi's point - Gemara itself, fulfills several secular subjects:
- Critical Thinking  / Critical Literacy
- Law
- Discrete Mathematics (Logic)
- Although it's a stretch, it also teaches History (via aggadata) and Social Studies (i.e. forms of government, courts, social structure of second temple society)

Won't teach American history. But not sure how much a high school diploma would help. I would imagine DJT posses one but doubt CV would give him a passing mark.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 01:51:34 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 01:57:26 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

I'd also say that the majority of kids can't succeed with DIY education models so anecdotes aren't so useful.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 01:58:18 PM
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

Negotiating tactic?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on July 12, 2019, 01:59:49 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
It's not a negotiating tactic as there is very little communication from the education department to the yeshivos, and it was already supposed to be implemented but the court voided it.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on July 12, 2019, 02:01:01 PM
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 02:02:46 PM
-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.
What else is objectionable? It's not they're Chas vshalom requiring evolution to be taught.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 02:05:11 PM
-1


You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 02:08:00 PM
You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.
Nobody is entitled to tax money. A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.

Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim. You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 02:08:25 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?

It would seem that way - also a public posturing tactic. i.e. if we're going to take a stance, let's stand on the official guidelines.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 02:15:14 PM
Nobody is entitled to tax money.....Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim.
With you here 100%
A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.
Yes, but a 65 year old might not in NYS -https://tax.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4169/~/what-is-enhanced-star%3F
 
You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.

While I agree with you on this point, I think that the overall number of 4.5 hours is a bit much. I think a better example would be using state testing results instead.

Again, my original point about the taxes was that I hate when people make the tax value argument, because of both the argument you laid out above - there is no true entitlement- as well as the idea that "Jews get nothing for our school taxes" when that's by and large not true.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Think you may have missed my post from earlier...

.. studying Talmud isn't just like reading a textbook, but rather builds logic and reasoning skills, and teaches history, math, law and social studies along the way.
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 12, 2019, 02:37:46 PM
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
-1

Major Rabbanim and Rosh Yeshivas went to Albany to discuss, and although they had originally been assured that the new guidelines would be a joint effort, the state went back on their word.

Overall, the point is that the state can certainly set expectations of what our students should know, there's no reason for them to dictate how we teach it, and how much time we spend on it.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 02:39:53 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
-1

Major Rabbanim and Rosh Yeshivas went to Albany to discuss, and although they had originally been assured that the new guidelines would be a joint effort, the state went back on their word.

Overall, the point is that the state can certainly set expectations of what our students should know, there's no reason for them to dictate how we teach it, and how much time we spend on it.
Things like math and reading aren't just a bunch of facts you can gauge on a standardized test. They're skills that need practice.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
Did you have those?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 02:43:19 PM
Did you have those?
No. You want me to apply your logic now?  :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: jj1000 on July 12, 2019, 02:43:56 PM
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
He would prob be practicing "do you want fries with that", as many people who had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 02:47:18 PM
He would prob be practicing "do you want fries with that", as many people who had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college.
Really? I know a ton of people like that and not one practices that. I guess you get out more than me.  :P
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 12, 2019, 02:49:57 PM
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?

On a high school level of Talmud vs. high school level advanced math - no.

However:

1) It's easier to teach math later on than it is to teach critical thinking and thoughtful analysis. Furthermore, most colleges have college classes that cover both basic high school math as well as more advanced high school math. This is an important point in 2 ways - it shows that many students outside the yeshiva world are entering college without a firm grasp of these concepts, and it also shows that even if one did not get a strong math education prior to college, that need not hold them back.

2) A solid foundation of basic math, including fractions, is more important for most people than the advanced math of high school. I will accept that the problem with this perspective is that a small number of students excel at more advanced math, and without the exposure to it, there's no way for them to know if they have an aptitude for productive and lucrative careers in those fields. While this exposure can come later, I can see the advantage of earlier exposure.

Things like math and reading aren't just a bunch of facts you can gauge on a standardized test. They're skills that need practice.

Skills that need practice require homework, studying, and then you gauge how well the students have acquired those skills. Generally, the accepted way to do so is on a standardized test of some kind, although as a former teacher I can debate that as well.

Recommending more hours of classes despite students demonstrating proficiency in a subject seems like a waste of time.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 12, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?

... depends on which math course.  Obviously the Talmud isn't going to replace a calculus textbook. But for Discrete mathematics - 100%.  The talmud deals with sets, logic, exceptions and rules. As a 20+ year professional software developer, my talmudic education influenced the development of my programming skills far more than any math class I took.

Let's pick another 3 subjects - History, English and 'Critical thinking/Critical Literacy'. In all 3 of those subjects, while we do cover literature both factual and fictional, the goal is to develop the skills needed to ultimately be able to analyze information, and use that information to make formal arguments. The Talmud does that without beating around the bush. Those subjects also get students to speak publicly and present publicly and to that end, many yeshivas have students give a dvar torah, or a prepared class on a topic that they've researched.

I remember meeting with the advisor for my minor - Technical Writing - and going through my required course list. When we got to critical thinking, she asks me if I'd ever studied the talmud? I told her about 9 years to that point. She exempted me on the spot.


Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: chinagel on July 12, 2019, 02:58:22 PM
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
אין מביאין ראיה מדן
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 03:00:02 PM
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
Maybe I'd be a consultant traveling every week. Would have been my loss :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 03:07:17 PM
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?
HS math is pretty basic so I would hope most use it.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
HS math is pretty basic so I would hope most use it.
I have never used trigonometry since high school. I have never done a geometry proof since high school. What percentage of the country do you think has?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 03:17:00 PM
I have never used trigonometry since high school. I have never done a geometry proof since high school. What percentage of the country do you think has?
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2019, 03:18:27 PM
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
That's 3rd grade math.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 03:22:07 PM
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
This is a diversion. Who even came across doing it? Even some more mathematical portions of statistics and geometry the only place I came across an opportunity to use them was during Talmudic studies. And yes every single subject of HS math is touched upon in Talmudic studies, but not everyone will necessarily get to all of those places.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2019, 03:25:11 PM
That's 3rd grade math.
Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 03:33:24 PM
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?

Now you're debating the curriculum. These things matter for college readiness:

- Pre-law is going to require reading and writing
- Engineering is going to require advanced math and physics
- Pre-med is going to require background in bio and chem

Most people need some of the stuff they learn in H.S. even if few people need all of it.

Especially if so many people are going to learn for a few years post-high school and do college in their mid/late 20s, it would be very helpful for them to be able to place out of classes in college and have an easier path to a degree/grad school. It would help young families reach higher income brackets faster without compromising time learning. High school seems like a great place to acquire this background.

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: zh cohen on July 12, 2019, 03:35:43 PM
The states only interest in education is in ensuring that kids get the knowledge and skills required to be functioning adults in society. To do this, they should look at results.

The elephant in the room is the fact that they can't do that because it would serve as an indictment of the public school system that's failing in it's basic mandate.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 03:37:18 PM
The states only interest in education is in ensuring that kids get the knowledge and skills required to be functioning adults in society. To do this, they should look at results.

The elephant in the room is the fact that they can't do that because it would serve as an indictment of the public school system that's failing in it's basic mandate.
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 03:39:17 PM
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 03:40:51 PM
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2019, 03:42:13 PM
No.

https://bit.ly/2WJoQG9

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: zh cohen on July 12, 2019, 03:53:55 PM
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.

So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 03:58:03 PM
So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.
I personally have seen enough to be considered many.

Capable? Who spoke about their capabilities? I am sure they are very capable.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: zh cohen on July 12, 2019, 04:24:14 PM
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.

The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 12, 2019, 04:35:39 PM
The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: zh cohen on July 12, 2019, 04:46:39 PM
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.

The state claimed that these rules were not a change, but a clarification of the existing standard (which is "substantially equivalent"). The court ruled that this is a change and therefore had to go through the regulatory process, but did not address the question of whether the rules themselves are legal.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 15, 2019, 12:47:29 PM
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: chinagel on July 15, 2019, 01:23:54 PM
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: gingyguy on July 15, 2019, 01:36:45 PM
And shes resigning!!!
https://www.vosizneias.com/327089/2019/07/15/new-york-nysed-commissioner-maryellen-elia-unexpectedly-announces-resignation/
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 15, 2019, 01:41:30 PM
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.

That all depends where you live :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yr on July 15, 2019, 01:44:30 PM
We all know that the government really has no  interest in this altogether but were forced to act when confronted with the facts that some boy’s schools do not teach any secular studies. Our focus should be on those schools that are attracting this unwanted attention rather than fighting on their behalf.
[/b]

This is the biggest issue imo. Our organizations seem to be accommodating to the lowest common denominator, so effectively they are defending a cause (i.e. close to zero secular studies) that their core constituents don't agree with.

Obviously, at the point we are now, basically all yeshivas are under attack, especially since most have a four day week for secular studies.

It seems to me that a tiny percentage of yeshivas are dragging the entire system through this, and if those yeshivas would've shaped up 5 years ago when the issue first came up, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: chinagel on July 15, 2019, 01:51:23 PM
And shes resigning!!!
https://www.vosizneias.com/327089/2019/07/15/new-york-nysed-commissioner-maryellen-elia-unexpectedly-announces-resignation/
So it's over?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: gingyguy on July 15, 2019, 02:02:31 PM
So it's over?
i wonder if thats how it works
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: TimT on July 15, 2019, 02:07:25 PM
i wonder if thats how it works
She had a special רשעות. We'll see if her replacement has the same fighting attitude.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 15, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
[/b]

This is the biggest issue imo. Our organizations seem to be accommodating to the lowest common denominator, so effectively they are defending a cause (i.e. close to zero secular studies) that their core constituents don't agree with.

Obviously, at the point we are now, basically all yeshivas are under attack, especially since most have a four day week for secular studies.

It seems to me that a tiny percentage of yeshivas are dragging the entire system through this, and if those yeshivas would've shaped up 5 years ago when the issue first came up, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I think therein lies the problem. In broader strokes is the bigger question here do we defend the rights of private schools to control their curricula. Or do we attack the handful of Yeshivas that are giving the rest a bad name?

I think it is much easier of Yeshivas of disparate hashkafas to band together (as they have, along with non-sectarian and other faiths' private schools) to fight government intervention in their curriculum than it is to get them to band together to root out the bad apples.

What leverage do they have? Do we really think that getting Torah Vodas  and Yeshiva of Flatbush and their hashkafic buddies together to tell Bobov to teach more Secular studies that it will actually make an impact?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yr on July 15, 2019, 03:00:08 PM
I think therein lies the problem. In broader strokes is the bigger question here do we defend the rights of private schools to control their curricula. Or do we attack the handful of Yeshivas that are giving the rest a bad name?

I think it is much easier of Yeshivas of disparate hashkafas to band together (as they have, along with non-sectarian and other faiths' private schools) to fight government intervention in their curriculum than it is to get them to band together to root out the bad apples.

What leverage do they have? Do we really think that getting Torah Vodas  and Yeshiva of Flatbush and their hashkafic buddies together to tell Bobov to teach more Secular studies that it will actually make an impact?

I see your point, and it's hard to disagree.

But 5 years ago I wouldn't call it attacking. This whole issue was going on well before any lawsuits were filed, yaffed was founded more than 5 years ago. The Chasidim could've been told that the government will come after you if you don't start teaching something minimal. Instead, the response was to portray the whole thing as an attack on all yeshivas, which it's wasn't, until a year ago.

But all that is rehashing what was. In the present, it is an attack on all yeshivas, so the options are much more limited, and banding together is probably the best option.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on July 19, 2019, 01:37:09 PM
Dear Parents, Grandparents, Alumni and Friends:

As we wrote in our email last week, it is urgent that you comment (if you have not already) to the New York State Board of Regents about the proposed education regulations, irrespective of the Commissioner's resignation.

We are including a new, informative message from Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel of America:


Dear Friend,
 
You may have heard that the New York State Education Department recently published proposed Regulations about “substantial equivalency of instruction” required for students attending nonpublic schools.

This can have severe ramifications for yeshivos and day schools across the board in NYS, so we wanted to provide some answers to common questions we are receiving about this serious development.
 
Q: How might the proposed regulations affect my child’s yeshiva?
A: The Regulations, on their face, may require schools to make major adjustments to their limudei kodesh and secular programming.

For example, the proposed regulations specify 1) the number of required hours – as many as 4-5 hours per day, depending on grade level; 2) more than 12 required subjects, including, at the lower elementary level, consumer and family science, visual arts, theater, media arts, career development, occupational studies, etc.; 3) assessment of teachers to an undefined standard.

Results, grades, competencies, graduation rates, or other factors regarding equivalency to public schools are not taken into account for these purposes.

To view the proposed Regulation click here (https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/register/2019/jul3.pdf).
 
Q: Didn’t the court already strike down the SED Guidelines 3 months ago?
A: Yes, those Guidelines were thrown out by the NY State Supreme Court in response to lawsuits brought by Agudath Israel, PEARLS, Torah Umesorah, and other groups. However, the court struck down the Guidelines because the State Education Department failed to comply with the technical requirements for new rulemaking. By publishing its “proposed Regulations” in the NYS Register, SED has now started an “official” process in compliance with those requirements.
 
Q: How do the new proposed Regulations differ from the previous Guidelines??
A: The new Regulations are substantially identical to the previous Guidelines.
 
Q: What happens now?
A: There is a sixty day public comment period (until September 2) when individuals can voice their concerns regarding these proposed regulations. At the conclusion of the process, the Regulations come before the Board of Regents for a vote, expected this fall.

 Q: I heard that State Education Commissioner Elia resigned on Monday. Does that mean this is over?
A: No. The impact of Commissioner's Elia's resignation on this issue is still to be determined, but the proposed Regulations have already been published and the comment period is in place.
 
Q: What is being done to fight for parents who choose, and sacrifice dearly, for their children to attend yeshivos?
A: The Agudah has been working with organizations in the community - PEARLS and Torah Umesorah, among others - to oppose the newest incarnation of the state's attempt to control yeshivos. It should be noted that the Catholic and NYSAIS independent schools (which, together with Jewish schools, form the majority of nonpublic schools in NYS) also strongly oppose these regulations.
 
Q: Is there anything I can do?
A: Yes! SED is required, by law, to read comments submitted. While many have previously signed petitions, which is important, these comments are required to be read by law. We have set up a system, where, with just a few clicks, you can voice your opinion on this critical matter.


Q: I live in Chicago, but the overreach of these regulations concerns me. May I register my comment?
A: The regulations do not restrict comments to NYS residents.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 19, 2019, 02:09:12 PM
Interesting,

 I read the link to the abstract of the proposal - https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/register/2019/jul3.pdf - I couldn't find anything about there being a time requirement. I read the requirements:
Quote
o during grades 1 through 6, mathematics, including arithmetic, science, and technology; English language arts; social studies; the arts; career
development and occupational studies; health education, physical education, and family and consumer sciences. Instruction in these subjects may
be integrated or incorporated into the syllabus or syllabi of other courses;
o during grades 7 and 8, mathematics (two units of study); English
language arts (two units of study); social studies (two units of study); science (two units of study); career and technical education, wherein the unit
of study requirement may be initiated in grade 5 (one and three-fourths
units of study); physical education (similar courses of instruction to those
required in public schools pursuant to section 135.4 of this Title); health
education (one-half unit of study); visual arts (one-half unit of study);
music (one-half unit of study); library and information skills, which may
in incorporated or integrated into any other subjects (the equivalent of one
period per week in grades 7 and 8); career development and occupational
studies, which may be incorporated or integrated into any other subjects;
o during grades 9 through 12, instruction in English (four units of
study); social studies (four units of study); mathematics (three units of
study); science (three units of study); health (one-half unit of study); physical education (two units of study); the arts (one unit of study);


So what I think this means is:
From Grades 1 to 6: You need Math, Science, Social Studies, and English
From Grades 7 to 12:
- You need 5 years of math and science
- You need 6 years of English and Social Studies

I am under the impression that most Yeshivish schools ( Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodas, Torah Temimah) offer pretty much that - so how does this change the status quo?


Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 19, 2019, 03:34:34 PM
Interesting,

 I read the link to the abstract of the proposal - https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/register/2019/jul3.pdf - I couldn't find anything about there being a time requirement. I read the requirements:
So what I think this means is:
From Grades 1 to 6: You need Math, Science, Social Studies, and English
From Grades 7 to 12:
- You need 5 years of math and science
- You need 6 years of English and Social Studies

I am under the impression that most Yeshivish schools ( Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodas, Torah Temimah) offer pretty much that - so how does this change the status quo?

Your link mentions required units of study, which I see referenced in this link:
http://www.nysed.gov/common/nysed/files/programs/bilingual-ed/5-26-2015_unitsofstudyglossaryfinal.pdf

"Units of Study: Required number of minutes of instruction per week throughout the school year or the equivalent. One unit of study as per CR Part 100.1(a) means at least 180 minutes of instruction per week throughout the school year, or the equivalent."

I don't know how it all adds up, but I'm guessing they did the calculations and ended up at 4-5 hours.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 22, 2019, 09:31:19 AM
45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 22, 2019, 09:44:05 AM
45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.
Where do you get the requirements being 4x per week at 45 minutes per class?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 22, 2019, 10:02:37 AM
Where do you get the requirements being 4x per week at 45 minutes per class?

He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 22, 2019, 10:05:12 AM
He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?
For starters, I'm not sure why yeshivas don't teach 5 days of secular studies, other than cost. If they wanted to, they could either teach 1.5 hours each on Sunday or Fridays, or make a schedule with 2-3 hours on one of those days. 3 hours of secular studies in a Friday during DST is completely reasonable.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 22, 2019, 10:09:38 AM
For starters, I'm not sure why yeshivas don't teach 5 days of secular studies, other than cost. If they wanted to, they could either teach 1.5 hours each on Sunday or Fridays, or make a schedule with 2-3 hours on one of those days. 3 hours of secular studies in a Friday during DST is completely reasonable.

Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 22, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.
Or cancel school on Sunday?

The point is that schools are trying to argue that their 12 or fewer hours a week are equivalent in quality to 25 hours of public schools, which is a much harder case to make whe you teach 4 days a week instead of 5.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 22, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 22, 2019, 10:31:50 AM
Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?

Saturday, that's it.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: CountValentine on July 22, 2019, 10:36:45 AM
Saturday, that's it.
Ouch! What time they start/end each day?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: yuneeq on July 22, 2019, 10:39:59 AM
Ouch! What time they start/end each day?

Start - 9am

End -
Sunday - usually 1pm
Mon/Thursday - usually 4:30 pm
Friday - usually 12
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 22, 2019, 10:43:08 AM
Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?
The yeshivas in question teach Judaic subjects 6 days a week and secular studies M-TH for boys. Girls generally don't have school on Sundays.

More modern schools generally have both secular and Judaic 5x per week M-F, though even among those schools, some boys schools would follow a similar schedule regarding days per week (though by and large teach more secular studies per day - generally 4-5 hrs per day M-F and less on Fridays if they teach secular studies on Fridays.)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on July 22, 2019, 10:46:55 AM
Start - 9am

End -
Sunday - usually 1pm
Mon/Thursday - usually 4:30 pm
Friday - usually 12
My boys have almost the same schedule on Sunday as the rest of the week including secular studies.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: grodnoking on July 22, 2019, 10:47:27 AM


45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.

That's what it is currently. I think they are adding a whole slew of extra studies to teach which will add on more time.

Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.
Well said.


The yeshivas in question teach Judaic subjects 6 days a week and secular studies M-TH for boys. Girls generally don't have school on Sundays.



My sisters generally yeshivish girls school had secular studies on Friday, but no school sunday.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 22, 2019, 11:08:00 AM
He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?

The number of total days in NY needs to match the state minimum of 180 days per school year. This, in part is why we wind up with busing nightmares of things like Columbus Day, Veterans Day, etc. 

Interestingly enough, most public school systems have a vacation give back schedule - i.e. if there are a lot of snow days, they chop off vacation days from winter or spring break. I've never seen a Yeshiva do it, although it would be pretty hard to end pesach early :)
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 22, 2019, 11:20:57 AM
I think Yeshivas in the US fall into 3 basic formats:

- Modern Style day schools - (regardless of whether they're separate or co-ed) that intersperse Judaic and Secular studies throughout the day. So if there are two classes per grade, one class starts the day with Judaics, the other would start the day with Secular and then they switch midway through the day. There are many variations on this theme, but for the most part both secular and judaics teachers/rebbiem are full-time staff of the school. (for clarity, everyone starts the day with tefila, and then splits off). School is M-F, and Judaics and Secular are taught 5 days a week - even though Friday is a shorter day (9-1:30 vs 9-4:00)

- Yeshivish with serious secular studies - the morning hours are devoted to Judaic studies (9-1 or 2), and secular studies are taught in the afternoon. (2-4:30, 3-5:30) - there is a practical reason for this. The school hires secular studies teachers who teach in public or other private schools in the morning, and are looking to make some extra $$. The teacher benefits because they have a side job, the school benefits because they get qualified teachers at a lower cost. In this environment Judaics are taught either 5 or 6 days a week, and secular M-F (Sundays typically had a full judaics schedule, vs Fridays that had an abridged schedule)

- Chasidish/yeshivish without serious secular studies - I don't know much about the breakdown or how this is approached, but I do know that a lot of my friends who switched from those environments did so because the secular education wasn't taught seriously.

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 22, 2019, 11:30:21 AM
I think Yeshivas in the US fall into 3 basic formats:

- Modern Style day schools - (regardless of whether they're separate or co-ed) that intersperse Judaic and Secular studies throughout the day. So if there are two classes per grade, one class starts the day with Judaics, the other would start the day with Secular and then they switch midway through the day. There are many variations on this theme, but for the most part both secular and judaics teachers/rebbiem are full-time staff of the school. (for clarity, everyone starts the day with tefila, and then splits off). School is M-F, and Judaics and Secular are taught 5 days a week - even though Friday is a shorter day (9-1:30 vs 9-4:00)

- Yeshivish with serious secular studies - the morning hours are devoted to Judaic studies (9-1 or 2), and secular studies are taught in the afternoon. (2-4:30, 3-5:30) - there is a practical reason for this. The school hires secular studies teachers who teach in public or other private schools in the morning, and are looking to make some extra $$. The teacher benefits because they have a side job, the school benefits because they get qualified teachers at a lower cost. In this environment Judaics are taught either 5 or 6 days a week, and secular M-F (Sundays typically had a full judaics schedule, vs Fridays that had an abridged schedule)

- Chasidish/yeshivish without serious secular studies - I don't know much about the breakdown or how this is approached, but I do know that a lot of my friends who switched from those environments did so because the secular education wasn't taught seriously.
I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on July 22, 2019, 11:59:55 AM
I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.
This is not true. All groups are apposed to it including the Christian and Muslim schools.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 22, 2019, 12:42:50 PM
I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.

Based on my comments regarding the actual policy document, it would seem that group 2 would also qualify - albeit with a little creative accounting - i.e. Chumash qualifies towards history, and Gemara to Social Studies, and both qualify for foreign language.  Again - this is if the total is 12-15 hours per week as opposed to 20-25 hours per week. If it's 20-25 hours per week, even those in group 1 would have difficulty meeting the requirement.

This is not true. All groups are apposed to it including the Christian and Muslim schools.

A lot of independent schools are opposed to it, in part because its more quantitative than qualitative. It also puts the burden on the schools to do more time accounting in case they're subject to an audit. While it might be easy to see how any religious school would be opposed to time limitations, other schools that are not religious oppose it too - some of them have alternative methods of teaching or subjects other than the standard curriculum don't want the government interfering with their curricula either.

I imagine most schools would agree to a qualitative measure of their teaching (i.e. this % of students are required to pass statewide subject exams) vs. you must teach x number of hours of this subject per week. In the qualitative measures, those numbers should be driven by the public schools in their same district. Back in the days where everyone in NY was required to take regents, I'm sure that most Yeshivas had far higher averages than the overall Public School average (even if you throw out the cheaters).

Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 22, 2019, 12:54:14 PM
The question becomes how controlling  they're going to want to be in terms of the subjects taught.

And part of the reason everyone is against this is because it sets a bad precedent of being told not just what students have to know, but also what to teach, and how.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on July 22, 2019, 02:43:02 PM
The question becomes how controlling  they're going to want to be in terms of the subjects taught.

And part of the reason everyone is against this is because it sets a bad precedent of being told not just what students have to know, but also what to teach, and how.

Exactly my point - which is why even some non-religious private schools are against it. The fight isn't as much about adequacy as it is about governmental control of private schooling.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: stooges44 on August 22, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Thursday, August 22


Dear Parents of Yeshiva Darchei Torah and All Caring Yidden,

Look at the headline above; it appears on the cover one of our local Jewish newspapers today.

Dramatic, isn't it?

But it's real.

I am not a person who believes in drama and hyperbole where it is not warranted. But Klal Yisroel in the State of New York is in serious and imminent danger.

This is about a real and looming crisis facing every single yeshiva, Bais Yaakov and day school family in our state.

We sent out emails earlier in the summer about this, and many of you followed the prompts to make your voice heard in Albany. We thank you. Many of you did not. The deadline to submit comments on the NYS Education Department guidelines is Labor Day, Sept. 2 - just over a week away.

I urge you - I beseech you - stop whatever you are doing and make your voice heard, right now! This cannot wait.

Whether you are a yeshiva parent or not--
Whether you live in New York State or not--
Please submit the petition!

It's easy.
The repercussions of a negative ruling from Albany will, chas v'shalom, not be easy.

We rely, as always, on Hashem for our ultimate salvation in every crisis. But we dare not sit on our laurels. Inaction is not an option in this case.

Please, make sure that you and your spouse's voices are heard, and then forward this email to all of your relatives, close and distant, and urge them to make their voices heard as well.

The time is now.

Sincerely,


Rabbi Yaakov Bender
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on August 23, 2019, 08:41:53 AM
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on August 23, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
What's the headline?

Thursday, August 22


Dear Parents of Yeshiva Darchei Torah and All Caring Yidden,

Look at the headline above; it appears on the cover one of our local Jewish newspapers today.

Dramatic, isn't it?

But it's real.

I am not a person who believes in drama and hyperbole where it is not warranted. But Klal Yisroel in the State of New York is in serious and imminent danger.

This is about a real and looming crisis facing every single yeshiva, Bais Yaakov and day school family in our state.

We sent out emails earlier in the summer about this, and many of you followed the prompts to make your voice heard in Albany. We thank you. Many of you did not. The deadline to submit comments on the NYS Education Department guidelines is Labor Day, Sept. 2 - just over a week away.

I urge you - I beseech you - stop whatever you are doing and make your voice heard, right now! This cannot wait.

Whether you are a yeshiva parent or not--
Whether you live in New York State or not--
Please submit the petition!

It's easy.
The repercussions of a negative ruling from Albany will, chas v'shalom, not be easy.

We rely, as always, on Hashem for our ultimate salvation in every crisis. But we dare not sit on our laurels. Inaction is not an option in this case.

Please, make sure that you and your spouse's voices are heard, and then forward this email to all of your relatives, close and distant, and urge them to make their voices heard as well.

The time is now.

Sincerely,


Rabbi Yaakov Bender
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yef on August 23, 2019, 03:28:01 PM
https://www.fivetownsjewishhome.com/current-issue/
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shwarmabob on August 23, 2019, 04:35:06 PM
https://www.fivetownsjewishhome.com/current-issue/
page 82. It's a well written article. It's not about secular education but government bureaucrats telling us how to educate our children. Even when paying through the roof for private schools in order to avoid the disaster that NYC schools have become.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Moshe123 on February 07, 2020, 04:45:27 PM
We win. At least for now.

https://www.regents.nysed.gov/common/regents/files/220p12d1.pdf
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Boruch999 on February 08, 2020, 03:00:03 PM
We win. At least for now.

https://www.regents.nysed.gov/common/regents/files/220p12d1.pdf

That's a win?  Look to me like temporary reprieve.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on February 09, 2020, 07:03:14 PM
We win. At least for now.

https://www.regents.nysed.gov/common/regents/files/220p12d1.pdf

The TL;DR, IMHO - wow, a lot of people have issues with this, we need to think a little more before we can implement anything.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Boruch999 on February 10, 2020, 03:29:16 AM
The TL;DR, IMHO - wow, a lot of people have issues with this, we need to think a little more before we can implement anything.

IMHO - wow, an order of magnitude more comments than ever before, the optics of ignoring completely are really bad and don't bode well for our political future, let's pretend to take it seriously. 
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: aygart on February 10, 2020, 08:01:03 AM
The TL;DR, IMHO - wow, a lot of people have issues with this, we need to think a little more before we can implement anything.
IMHO - wow, an order of magnitude more comments than ever before, the optics of ignoring completely are really bad and don't bode well for our political future, let's pretend to take it seriously. 
How are these different?
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Boruch999 on February 10, 2020, 12:43:53 PM
How are these different?

I thought @Yonah 's summary gave the impression of genuine care and concern.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: Yonah on February 11, 2020, 05:58:23 PM
I thought @Yonah 's summary gave the impression of genuine care and concern.

Please find me a genuine politician - there aren't too many, and most are on a local level.

This is a situation where the BOE is getting it on both sides - Lawsuits on the one hand from Organizations like YAFFED, and comments on the other hand from nearly every private school demographic.

I honestly don't think that this is over, but I think that they will come back in 6 months time with either:
a) Reduced guidelines based on time of instruction
or
b) A Requirement to show proficiency - i.e. pass a test

I'm thinking more likely #b - which doesn't really impact the yeshivas that are already administering Regents tests.
Title: Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
Post by: shapsam on February 11, 2020, 06:32:27 PM
Please find me a genuine politician - there aren't too many, and most are on a local level.

This is a situation where the BOE is getting it on both sides - Lawsuits on the one hand from Organizations like YAFFED, and comments on the other hand from nearly every private school demographic.

I honestly don't think that this is over, but I think that they will come back in 6 months time with either:
a) Reduced guidelines based on time of instruction
or
b) A Requirement to show proficiency - i.e. pass a test

I'm thinking more likely #b - which doesn't really impact the yeshivas that are already administering Regents tests.
A judge ruled that YAFFED has no standing to sue.

CMIIW but I'm pretty sure all yeshiva students (K-8) already have a state test.