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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Kabrams1618 on August 07, 2019, 10:05:18 PM

Title: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Kabrams1618 on August 07, 2019, 10:05:18 PM
I have read with great interest many post complaining about this Israeli hotel or that Israeli problem with kashrut or issues with Judaism in Israel.  I would be interested in knowing your one main reason for not living in Israel.  If you made aliyah, the main reason why.
Just so you know, I came nine years ago with three teenagers, no job and no housing so I have heard most of the excuses.
Best move I ever made for my family and I!  I am  interested in why you are all not here helping to shape the country instead of complaining about it.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: CountValentine on August 07, 2019, 10:14:15 PM
Great topic. Can't wait for the responses.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 07, 2019, 10:16:11 PM
Too far from my in-laws
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Mordyk on August 07, 2019, 10:39:21 PM
Simply dont have the courage to move away from family.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 07, 2019, 10:53:51 PM
Simply dont have the courage to move away from family.

are you my wife?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: shmoe joe on August 07, 2019, 11:09:14 PM
Too far from my in-laws
this would be first reason you should live there!!
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Z56 on August 07, 2019, 11:18:52 PM
Lived there and moved back;)
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 07, 2019, 11:51:10 PM
I have read with great interest many post complaining about this Israeli hotel or that Israeli problem with kashrut or issues with Judaism in Israel.  I would be interested in knowing your one main reason for not living in Israel.  If you made aliyah, the main reason why.
Just so you know, I came nine years ago with three teenagers, no job and no housing so I have heard most of the excuses.
Best move I ever made for my family and I!  I am  interested in why you are all not here helping to shape the country instead of complaining about it.

You are making it sound like everyone should naturally want to live there, and a reason for not doing so should be given. I would ask "why should or would I move there" first.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ludmila on August 07, 2019, 11:53:15 PM
You are making it sound like everyone should naturally want to live there, and a reason for not doing so should be given. I would ask "why should or would I move there" first.
Nice weather :)
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 07, 2019, 11:56:09 PM
Nice weather :)

Haven't found it to be significantly nicer than what I have here (and occasionally worse), though the lifestyle there would have me exposed more than I am here to weather related inconveniences (I am talking from experience).
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 12:24:13 AM
Want my kids to stay on the derech
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: jmz on August 08, 2019, 12:27:03 AM
Want my kids to stay on the derech
Interesting. Where do you live now that makes you sure that you will succeed?

Simply just wondering, this is one of my biggest concerns.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Kabrams1618 on August 08, 2019, 12:34:24 AM
Want my kids to stay on the derech

Was this your reason for not coming or for making Aliyah?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: cmey on August 08, 2019, 12:39:53 AM
https://mishpacha.com/a-response-to-too-far-from-home/
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 12:47:39 AM
Was this your reason for not coming or for making Aliyah?

I can think of a classmate of mine whoís family made Aliyah with relatively older kids and a relative who did so as well. They stand out from my classmates and relatives who did not make Aliyah in that each have multiple kids who no longer keep shabbos ( one was actually yored to Florida). Admittedly anecdotal but consistent with what I have heard from many people; making the move with kids older than infants is a risk.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Definitions on August 08, 2019, 02:12:39 AM
I can think of a classmate of mine whoís family made Aliyah with relatively older kids and a relative who did so as well. They stand out from my classmates and relatives who did not make Aliyah in that each have multiple kids who no longer keep shabbos ( one was actually yored to Florida). Admittedly anecdotal but consistent with what I have heard from many people; making the move with kids older than infants is a risk.
I suspect that the type of people that make aliyah are the type of people that regardless have a higher risk of kids going off.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 08, 2019, 07:02:09 AM
Job

And security. (Though currently the USA is starting to feel almost as unsafe as Israel. But if course it's not even comparable..)
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 07:44:15 AM
Job

And security. (Though currently the USA is starting to feel almost as unsafe as Israel. But if course it's not even comparable..)

you feel less safe there?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 07:47:20 AM
You are making it sound like everyone should naturally want to live there, and a reason for not doing so should be given. I would ask "why should or would I move there" first.

Its actually sad that you should ask this. Unless there is something about Chabad shitos that I am unaware of.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 08, 2019, 07:49:53 AM
The racist attitude against Chareidim (even highly educated and competent ones) in the Israeli business world.


Other than that thereís no better place to live.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 08, 2019, 07:55:32 AM
Its actually sad that you should ask this. Unless there is something about Chabad shitos that I am unaware of.

Your comment is even sadder. We are in the 9 days, and we must remember that we are now in Golus. We sinned and were kicked out of Israel. If we do Mitzvos and Tshuva then Moshiach will come and we will all go back. Until then, Israel is also just a Golus (a very scary one indeed, religion-wise).

So the question is: Whatís the benefit of replacing Golus USA with Golus Israel?


Yet the Zionists did a great job brainwashing people that Israel just ainít no Golus anymore...
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 08:01:43 AM
Your comment is even sadder. We are in the 9 days, and we must remember that we are now in Golus. We sinned and were kicked out of Israel. If we do Mitzvos and Tshuva then Moshiach will come and we will all go back. Until then, Israel is also just a Golus (a very scary one indeed, religion-wise).

So the question is: Whatís the benefit of replacing Golus USA with Golus Israel?


Yet the Zionists did a great job brainwashing people that Israel just ainít no Golus anymore...

Ok. so 1st things 1st. did you know you can do more Mitzvos in eretz yisroel?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 08, 2019, 08:16:07 AM
Ok. so 1st things 1st. did you know you can do more Mitzvos in eretz yisroel?

Yes of course. And in ChuĒl there are different mitzvos to. Please point me out one source which says itís a Mitzvah to impose the Mitzvos Hatluyos BaíAretz on yourself. There are none.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 08:29:14 AM

Yet the Zionists did a great job brainwashing people that Israel just ainít no Golus anymore...

Who said anything about Golus. I think you are brainwashed into fear of being put into the Zionist camp.

Yes of course. And in ChuĒl there are different mitzvos to. Please point me out one source which says itís a Mitzvah to impose the Mitzvos Hatluyos BaíAretz on yourself. There are none.

How many Mitzvos in Chu"l are there in comparison to E"Y?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: jmz on August 08, 2019, 08:32:03 AM
Who said anything about Golus. I think you are brainwashed into fear of being put into the Zionist camp.

How many Mitzvos in Chu"l are there in comparison to E"Y?

Isn't there a general mitzvah of living in e"y?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 08:34:00 AM
The Chofetz Chaim, the Gra many of our gedolim in the past have tried to make the move to EY.

For whatever reason they were unable to but they wanted to be there.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 08, 2019, 08:42:24 AM
Ok. so 1st things 1st. did you know you can do more Mitzvos in eretz yisroel?

So if that's "1st things 1st" why wasn't that your initial response to my inquiry?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 08, 2019, 08:43:22 AM
Isn't there a general mitzvah of living in e"y?

AFAIK according to most Halachic authorities there is no such mitzvah.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: stooges44 on August 08, 2019, 09:08:11 AM
I have read with great interest many post complaining about this Israeli hotel or that Israeli problem with kashrut or issues with Judaism in Israel.  I would be interested in knowing your one main reason for not living in Israel.  If you made aliyah, the main reason why.
Just so you know, I came nine years ago with three teenagers, no job and no housing so I have heard most of the excuses.
Best move I ever made for my family and I!  I am  interested in why you are all not here helping to shape the country instead of complaining about it.

Lets not turn this into another halachic discussion, got plenty of those here and just about everywhere.

Lets talk tachlus. You said you came with no job or house, mind sharing how you managed to pull it off given those circumstances?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 09:11:12 AM
So if that's "1st things 1st" why wasn't that your initial response to my inquiry?

I see @CountValentine has started to change your posting style.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: CountValentine on August 08, 2019, 09:13:00 AM
I see @CountValentine has started to change your posting style.
Even if this is in JS I am just observing. You don't want to drag me into this one.  :)
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: yoohoo on August 08, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Too late. Too comfortable with the American way of life. I think thatís a fair reason.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Mordyk on August 08, 2019, 09:51:08 AM
I can think of a classmate of mine whoís family made Aliyah with relatively older kids and a relative who did so as well. They stand out from my classmates and relatives who did not make Aliyah in that each have multiple kids who no longer keep shabbos ( one was actually yored to Florida). Admittedly anecdotal but consistent with what I have heard from many people; making the move with kids older than infants is a risk.
thats because a move with older kids is hard, regardless of the destination
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 08, 2019, 10:03:59 AM
When I left yeshiva in Israel 20+ years ago, my thought was that I'll be back soon. Then I met this girl who had no desire and no interest. It didn't help that not only did she not do a gap year in seminary, but also several of her family members who went to EY from the FSU (where she was born) ultimately came to the US because they were unhappy in EY.

Now that I am older with older kids (who at the moment have no desire) the only likely way I make Aliyah is if one or more of them does it.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 08, 2019, 10:11:17 AM
https://mishpacha.com/a-response-to-too-far-from-home/

Wow - reading this in the nine days, I can't help but think that this is the epitome of sinnas chinum. Not living in the Charedi world, I never began to consider the schooling issues raised in this article, and/or the shidduch issue as well.

Couple that with the way that the Charedim are viewed by secular and some in the Dati Leumi community, It's not hard to imagine why Charedi jews don't want to make aliyah.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: whacked1 on August 08, 2019, 10:19:06 AM
I have read with great interest many post complaining about this Israeli hotel or that Israeli problem with kashrut or issues with Judaism in Israel.  I would be interested in knowing your one main reason for not living in Israel.  If you made aliyah, the main reason why.
Just so you know, I came nine years ago with three teenagers, no job and no housing so I have heard most of the excuses.
Best move I ever made for my family and I!  I am  interested in why you are all not here helping to shape the country instead of complaining about it.
Out of curiosity, prior to you moving, did you have a good job in the US? 
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: chinagel on August 08, 2019, 10:19:35 AM
Your comment is even sadder. We are in the 9 days, and we must remember that we are now in Golus. We sinned and were kicked out of Israel. If we do Mitzvos and Tshuva then Moshiach will come and we will all go back. Until then, Israel is also just a Golus (a very scary one indeed, religion-wise).

So the question is: Whatís the benefit of replacing Golus USA with Golus Israel?


Yet the Zionists did a great job brainwashing people that Israel just ainít no Golus anymore...
This is ridiculous. The list of Gedolim who tried to live in Eretz Yisrael throughout galus is very long.

It's a mitzva according to most poskim.

Even after 1948, almost all Gedolim still encouraged people to live there (all things being equal).
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
thats because a move with older kids is hard, regardless of the destination

Itís hard when you move them to a new place where they speak the language and understand the culture. Compound that with an environment where the language and culture is foreign, and when they do eventually adapt the kids are inevitably going to look down on their parents to some degree as the immigrants who speak a broken accented ivrit (think American kids of Russian immigrants) and the risk is that much greater.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Definitions on August 08, 2019, 11:08:05 AM
Wow - reading this in the nine days, I can't help but think that this is the epitome of sinnas chinum. Not living in the Charedi world, I never began to consider the schooling issues raised in this article, and/or the shidduch issue as well.

Couple that with the way that the Charedim are viewed by secular and some in the Dati Leumi community, It's not hard to imagine why Charedi jews don't want to make aliyah.
That's sinas chinam? To me it seems like that's a very valid reason.
What I'm surprised is that I thought eretz Yisroel had the most diverse crowd of Jewish people. I imagined people would find their community
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: aygart on August 08, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
https://matzav.com/rav-avigdor-miller-why-havent-we-all-moved-to-yerushalayim-heres-why/
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 08, 2019, 11:46:31 AM
That's sinas chinam? To me it seems like that's a very valid reason.
What I'm surprised is that I thought eretz Yisroel had the most diverse crowd of Jewish people. I imagined people would find their community

I am talking about the attitudes described by the author of the letter as to his reasons for not making aliyah.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on August 08, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Too far from my in-laws
Too close to my in-laws
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Definitions on August 08, 2019, 11:56:45 AM
I am talking about the attitudes described by the author of the letter as to his reasons for not making aliyah.
So am I.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Kabrams1618 on August 08, 2019, 12:22:53 PM
Many interesting responses  and valid specific questions for me.  I did have an excellent six figure job, pension option, great health care, nice house in a beach community so I  certainly was not fleeing or leaving because I had nothing to lose.  Sold or got rid of all material things, house, cars, furniture etc.  No lift, only two suitcases/ boxes per person.  Had small amount of savings to start. Also first year government gives new olim small monthly stipend to live. Actually had all family members stuff envelopes for a charity for additional money.  Got my foot in the door of a school as an assistant in a kindergarten for a maternity leave.   You do what you need to do. Things worked out.  First apartment taken sight unseen.  Still in apartment nine years later, turned out to be a perfect location.  No car, never really missed it.  Donít miss any of the material things we dont have.
I will answer ex gingi Ďs valid question about why someone should move here in a separate post.
I really find the responses fascinating and eye opening.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ADG on August 08, 2019, 12:24:06 PM
What is the definitions of mixed emotions? Your MIL driving off a cliff with your new Cadillac. Also moving to Israel (where you have no cadillac, just overcrowded public transportation)

Is it Eretz Yisroel or Israel? sigh.

As a preface I did 3 years of IDF and my parents live there I was spent my teens and ealry 20s there and developed some horrible habits during that time.

My main reasons are a little personal but...

1. Terrible pop culture
2. Yiddishkeit is so extreme in a very strange way. Very different from America.
3. Chinuch (kids going off)
4. Inconvenient/ schleppy lifestyle


Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 08, 2019, 12:25:02 PM
So am I.

Quote from: Mishpacha Magazine
Outsiders are defined in many chareidi sectors by three factors: Are they foreigners/non-Israeli born? Do they work? Are they baalei teshuvah? If the answer to any one of these three questions about you is yes, then you may feel like an outcast and outsider. It is possible to overcome any one of these ďhandicapsĒ to some extent, although rarely completely. If more than one of these is true, you face an uphill battle and likely will never be totally accepted or welcomed by the chareidi community. You will be treated particularly badly if all three of these conditions are true.

How is this not sinnas chinnum? I am not asking tounge in cheek - but is it acceptable to look down upon other Jews if they were born elsewhere? A jew that wants to provide for his family should be looked down upon? And everything else aside - we're shunning Ba'alei Teshuva? If that's the case, what's the point of Kiruv? It's like saying - "Let's bring someone closer to hashem so that they can live in a world where they'll be ostracized because their parents aren't frum."

Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: aygart on August 08, 2019, 12:26:46 PM
Its actually sad that you should ask this. Unless there is something about Chabad shitos that I am unaware of.
That there may be an answer to the question doesn't invalidate the question. If the reason is that it may be better for frumkeit then that can be countered by how there are ways that it is worse etc.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 08, 2019, 01:51:38 PM
https://matzav.com/rav-avigdor-miller-why-havent-we-all-moved-to-yerushalayim-heres-why/

Notice he does not ask why we should move there?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: AussieMan on August 08, 2019, 01:57:58 PM
AFAIK according to most Halachic authorities there is no such mitzvah.
Incorrect.
Not a Chiyuv but most definitely a mitzvah.
I believe chabadniks confuse this because the Rebbe didn't live in E"y. However, that was clearly a matter of the Rebbe's mission. No shliach would be encouraged to move to E"y, but for a regular person living in USA - of course it's a mitzvah of yishuv E"Y.

By the way, have you ever visited E"y? Becasue that's much more of a Halachik issue, to leave once visiting.


Interesting read here - https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/97583/jewish/Reeh-Living-in-Eretz-Yisrael.htm
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: AussieMan on August 08, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
And security. (Though currently the USA is starting to feel almost as unsafe as Israel. But if course it's not even comparable..)
Not comparable as E"Y is the safest place in the world!
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 08, 2019, 02:04:27 PM
Isn't there a general mitzvah of living in e"y?

Not according to most poskim. This is all very well explained in מאמר מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל in ויואל משה.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 08, 2019, 02:06:44 PM
This is ridiculous. The list of Gedolim who tried to live in Eretz Yisrael throughout galus is very long.

It's a mitzva according to most poskim.

Even after 1948, almost all Gedolim still encouraged people to live there (all things being equal).

#FakeNewsAlert
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
Many interesting responses  and valid specific questions for me.  I did have an excellent six figure job, pension option, great health care, nice house in a beach community so I  certainly was not fleeing or leaving because I had nothing to lose.  Sold or got rid of all material things, house, cars, furniture etc.  No lift, only two suitcases/ boxes per person.  Had small amount of savings to start. Also first year government gives new olim small monthly stipend to live. Actually had all family members stuff envelopes for a charity for additional money.  Got my foot in the door of a school as an assistant in a kindergarten for a maternity leave.   You do what you need to do. Things worked out.  First apartment taken sight unseen.  Still in apartment nine years later, turned out to be a perfect location.  No car, never really missed it.  Donít miss any of the material things we dont have.
I will answer ex gingi Ďs valid question about why someone should move here in a separate post.
I really find the responses fascinating and eye opening.

I think your post begs the question. What changed in your life? Was there a cataclysmic life event that took place? Major religious awakening? What prompted you to suddenly leave it all with three grown kids? You must admit that yours if far from  a typical life change that is made, especially someone if your economic situation....
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: mmgfarb on August 08, 2019, 02:41:50 PM
How is this not sinnas chinnum? I am not asking tounge in cheek - but is it acceptable to look down upon other Jews if they were born elsewhere? A jew that wants to provide for his family should be looked down upon? And everything else aside - we're shunning Ba'alei Teshuva? If that's the case, what's the point of Kiruv? It's like saying - "Let's bring someone closer to hashem so that they can live in a world where they'll be ostracized because their parents aren't frum."
Right or wrong, it's the way the culture is. Saying that you believe it should be different doesn't change the current reality.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Dan on August 08, 2019, 02:57:00 PM
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4046155/jewish/Why-Didnt-the-Rebbe-Ever-Visit-Israel.htm/
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: CountValentine on August 08, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
Not comparable as E"Y is the safest place in the world!
#FakeNewsAlert
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 08, 2019, 02:59:24 PM
Right or wrong, it's the way the culture is. Saying that you believe it should be different doesn't change the current reality.

I agree that's what the culture is, but I can't understand how this can be "Right"?

What happened to welcoming in strangers? To the phrase - "בקןם שבעלי תשובה עומדים אין צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמוד?"

Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Kabrams1618 on August 08, 2019, 03:04:35 PM
I think your post begs the question. What changed in your life? Was there a cataclysmic life event that took place? Major religious awakening? What prompted you to suddenly leave it all with three grown kids? You must admit that yours if far from  a typical life change that is made, especially someone if your economic situation....


It was actually not a rash decision .  We went to Israel for 4-6 weeks every summer for eight years to acclimate and go with our eyes wide open.  I think the thing that finally pushed us to go was our desire not to have our family split in two countries as some of the kids would soon be of the age that their situation may keep them in the U.S., spouse etc.  Our  family was too close for the family to be split.  All The kids were also gung ho for the move which is crucial in the success.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: CountValentine on August 08, 2019, 03:05:51 PM
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4046155/jewish/Why-Didnt-the-Rebbe-Ever-Visit-Israel.htm/
Interesting read.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 08, 2019, 03:15:07 PM
It's a mitzva according to most poskim.

That's interesting. I've never seen it. Can you please post sources/quotes?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: hvaces42 on August 08, 2019, 03:29:55 PM
http://www.englishtorahtapes.com/listen/Parshas/030A_Kedoshim_Rabbi_Isaac_Bernstein_5754%20-%2002%20-%20Track%20%202.mp3

Start at 13:30

Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: AussieMan on August 08, 2019, 03:33:28 PM
That's interesting. I've never seen it. Can you please post sources/quotes?
רמב"ן
אבני נזר ועוד בדעת הרמב"ם
IIRC it was r' moshe who said its a mitzvah קיומית, which is basically the same idea as mitzvah but not chiyuv.

in @Dan article
The Rebbe: Any chassid who comes to ask about going to live in Israel, who isn't involved in education or in the rabbinate, is advised to go, and we give him our blessing for his move. The problem is for those who have vital roles in the community, and if they leave, everything will crumble. They are compared to ships' captains in stormy seas; the captain is always the last to abandon ship. First, he must save the passengers . . .

This is why Chabad never made it a thing to move. But if one isn't on shlichus, it's more a matter of culture than anything else.

And regarding visiting, which most people I know do without a question -
The Rebbe: If you would write to me a halachic responsa that according to Jewish law, I would be permitted to afterward return to the United States, not to abandon the Jews here, then I would evaluate the validity of the argument to see if it is indeed a proper conclusion according to Jewish law.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 08, 2019, 03:38:29 PM
http://www.englishtorahtapes.com/listen/Parshas/030A_Kedoshim_Rabbi_Isaac_Bernstein_5754%20-%2002%20-%20Track%20%202.mp3

Start at 13:30

Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: AussieMan on August 08, 2019, 03:47:58 PM
Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
The Ramban does count it.
All the meforshim ask why the rambam doesn't. The meggilas esther learns that the rambam held it's not a mitzvah. Most other meforshim give reasons why the rambam didn't count it, (mitzvah coileles or included in other mitzvos etc)

https://www.ou.org/torah/halacha/practical-halacha/the-mitzvah-of-making-aliyah-living-in-israel-today/
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: hvaces42 on August 08, 2019, 03:52:35 PM
Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
I didnt post in response to anything other than the topic.

The Speaker is Rav Isaac Bernstein z'l who was a Rov in Ireland and England and passed away in the 1990s. What his personal beliefs were I cannot say.

This is Audio only (not great quality) from Rav Berel Wein (yes we know someone in this thread hates him) of the Haftorah of Parshas Parah


Worth a listen too about how everything the Navi Yechezkel said would happen.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: chinagel on August 08, 2019, 03:58:14 PM
Not according to most poskim. This is all very well explained in מאמר מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל in ויואל משה.
Nice of you to quote the Satmar Rav as "most Poskim" ::)
#FakeNewsAlert
Not sure which part is FakeNews. I'll assume you aren't arguing that throughout Galus, Gedolim didn't encourage moving to E"Y.
As far as most Poskim
רמב"ן
אבני נזר ועוד בדעת הרמב"ם
IIRC it was r' moshe who said its a mitzvah קיומית, which is basically the same idea as mitzvah but not chiyuv.
Shiltei hagiborim in Nedarim says it's only a mitzva al mnas leisheiv. Chazon Ish was known and R' Chaim Kanievsky is known to strongly encourage.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: AussieMan on August 08, 2019, 04:12:48 PM
@chinagel I'm on your side here.
I think you should be quoting @ExGingi
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 04:27:28 PM

It was actually not a rash decision .  We went to Israel for 4-6 weeks every summer for eight years to acclimate and go with our eyes wide open.  I think the thing that finally pushed us to go was our desire not to have our family split in two countries as some of the kids would soon be of the age that their situation may keep them in the U.S., spouse etc.  Our  family was too close for the family to be split.  All The kids were also gung ho for the move which is crucial in the success.

Spending eight years prepping is certainly the right way to do it. Most of those on this forum likely have never taken the family for an extended trip to Israel and couldnít afford it if they wanted to. Asking them to take the plunge is a whole different story.

Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: chinagel on August 08, 2019, 05:01:18 PM
@chinagel I'm on your side here.
I think you should be quoting @ExGingi
I was guoting you to bring proof to what I said :)
Also, Chazon Ish in koveitz igros 1:175 says "mitzvas E"y huchra al y'dei harambam v'haramban u'sharei poskim @YesThatsMe
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Kabrams1618 on August 08, 2019, 05:01:38 PM
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: chinagel on August 08, 2019, 05:09:39 PM
The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.
Why should we? :P
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: mmgfarb on August 08, 2019, 05:14:05 PM
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.
You do realize that just because you live in Israel, you are still in galus, right? I'm not going to question your motives for moving to Israel but I don't think that there is any basis for saying that moving back to E"Y is going to help bring the geula any faster. You are free to CMIIW.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 08, 2019, 05:28:32 PM
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.

There are many great reasons to want to live in Israel but just to address the specific points you raised, from a purely logical perspective the future of the Jewish people actually looks a lot more bleak in Israel than in the United States. You have an existential threat from the surrounding Arab countries, a virtual certainty of Iran and others developing nuclear weapons, and Hezbolla and the like stockpiling increasingly destructive and deadly weapons that are difficult if not impossible to completely counter.

Even from a spiritual perspective the navi describing what Yerushalayim will go through prior to moshiachís arrival is terrifying.

 I personally donít believe that having a Jewish homeland to defend in the ďnever againĒ sense is worth a whole lot when it is centered smack dab in middle of dozens of nations who wish to destroy us. Iím sure many others feel the same so those are not specific factors that would motivate mass Aliyah from the US.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Definitions on August 08, 2019, 07:43:17 PM
https://collive.com/yeshiva-student-murdered-in-terror-attack/
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Proisrael on August 09, 2019, 02:12:25 AM
https://collive.com/yeshiva-student-murdered-in-terror-attack/

Do you really want to start comparing the homicide rate in Israel to the US?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Proisrael on August 09, 2019, 02:15:35 AM
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)

Hate to Charedim:

Seems to be very limited to Jerusalem. I live in Haifa and everyone I meet in the business world is very very interested and very nice.

Jobs:

Definitely is an issue, however someone in Tech/Real Estate/Teaching can definitely find jobs here. Israel has an amazing job market now.


Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 09, 2019, 02:58:52 AM
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)


You mean this?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1563665/sikrikim-vs-shabavnikim-jewish-delinquent-youth-are-terrorizing-the-streets-of-ramat-beit-shemesh.html
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yard sale on August 09, 2019, 03:28:58 AM
Here is a comprehensive article that deals with a lot of the issues that come up when making Aliyah. Itís not that recent but should still be quite relevant.

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=849&ThisGroup_ID=238&ID=Newest&Type=Article

ďRabbi Oratz estimates that between ten and twenty percent of children who make aliya in their teenage years end up going off the derech.Ē

ďRabbi Yaakov Hopfer of Congregation Sheíaris Yisroel in Baltimore is well aware of the challenges facing American families making aliya:ďThousands of people are struggling with these issues.Not hundreds Ė thousands! I would say that 50% of the kids who make aliya are getting married and settling back in America.Ē
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Proisrael on August 09, 2019, 04:18:14 AM
Here is a comprehensive article that deals with a lot of the issues that come up when making Aliyah. Itís not that recent but should still be quite relevant.

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=849&ThisGroup_ID=238&ID=Newest&Type=Article

ďRabbi Oratz estimates that between ten and twenty percent of children who make aliya in their teenage years end up going off the derech.Ē

ďRabbi Yaakov Hopfer of Congregation Sheíaris Yisroel in Baltimore is well aware of the challenges facing American families making aliya:ďThousands of people are struggling with these issues.Not hundreds Ė thousands! I would say that 50% of the kids who make aliya are getting married and settling back in America.Ē

This is a non-issue in many communities outside of RBS and JErusalem
Title: Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
Post by: YesThatsMe on August 09, 2019, 08:30:51 AM
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)

Hate to Charedim:

Seems to be very limited to Jerusalem. I live in Haifa and everyone I meet in the business world is very very interested and very nice.

Jobs:

Definitely is an issue, however someone in Tech/Real Estate/Teaching can definitely find jobs here. Israel has an amazing job market now.


Hate limited to Jerusalem? Jerusalem is a Chareidi city! And There is no business in Jerusalem! It’s just a provincial middle eastern Souk town commerce-wise.


I’m talking about a Chareidi who wants to get a job in what the media calls מדינת תל אביב, a normal finance or high tech or legal or even RE job with an established company or firm paying starting ₪12,000 to someone with a Masters Degree in the field, the Chareidim don’t make it past the lobby...
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yonah on August 09, 2019, 09:22:19 AM
.....  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here.

On many levels, I'd agree with you, but at the same time, I see a Jewish community that's so tribal and divisive, I shudder to think that that's our future.

I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I agree with you there, but clearly all Jews in E"Y don't.

The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.

I can't answer that question, but I definitely see a lot of aliyah among younger families. Someone like me with 3 teenagers and aging family that we care for it's difficult to move. But over this summer, 2 families (both with kids under 10) and a single man (recent college graduate) from my small community have made/are making aliyah.


Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 09, 2019, 09:30:13 AM
you feel less safe there?
Of course. It is a country surrounded by enemies who attack all the time. What's the question?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: Yehuda57 on August 09, 2019, 09:37:18 AM
תמיד עיני ה' אלוקיך בה מרשית שנה ועד אחרית שנה
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: mmgfarb on August 09, 2019, 10:02:59 AM
This is a non-issue in many communities outside of RBS and JErusalem
Uh, so where exactly should Americans making aliyah live?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 11, 2019, 06:43:20 AM
תמיד עיני ה' אלוקיך בה מרשית שנה ועד אחרית שנה
Should I quote the myriad of other pesukim that detail what happens to Jews who sin in the holy Land?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 11, 2019, 02:23:28 PM
Its actually sad that you should ask this. Unless there is something about Chabad shitos that I am unaware of.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Let's start with a visual (this is what I found online using Google)

(https://i.gyazo.com/6c1f77d4b696911455717de6403bee47.jpg)

Choosing where to live (as well as many other aspects of life) aren't about what feels best for me, but about what's required of me (and/or where I might have the most positive impact).

Is there anyone in today's day and age that can claim ignorance of the above being an integral part of the Chabad-Lubavitch shitta?
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 11, 2019, 02:54:58 PM
I understand the reason to stay. But I also have a premise of EY being primary all things equal which you asked if that should be the starting ground. My response was unequivocally yes unless there is some shita I am unaware of.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 11, 2019, 04:42:35 PM
I understand the reason to stay. But I also have a premise of EY being primary all things equal which you asked if that should be the starting ground. My response was unequivocally yes unless there is some shita I am unaware of.

Did I?

Here is what I wrote:

You are making it sound like everyone should naturally want to live there, and a reason for not doing so should be given. I would ask "why should or would I move there" first.

My point mainly being that when we ask questions of others, trying to find out their ideas or opinions, we shouldn't really do it with any preconceived assumptions, but rather ask straightforward question seeking explanation (or clarification). I wouldn't have written what I wrote had the OP ommited the word "yet" from the question.

But rather than directly answer (or wait for OP to respond) you proceeded with what looks like you were making assumptions (implied), projections (referencing Chabad, rather than questioning me), and value judgments ("sad").

Hence @aygart's comment

That there may be an answer to the question doesn't invalidate the question. If the reason is that it may be better for frumkeit then that can be countered by how there are ways that it is worse etc.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: 12HRS on August 11, 2019, 10:03:23 PM
Did I?

Here is what I wrote:

My point mainly being that when we ask questions of others, trying to find out their ideas or opinions, we shouldn't really do it with any preconceived assumptions, but rather ask straightforward question seeking explanation (or clarification). I wouldn't have written what I wrote had the OP ommited the word "yet" from the question.

But rather than directly answer (or wait for OP to respond) you proceeded with what looks like you were making assumptions (implied), projections (referencing Chabad, rather than questioning me), and value judgments ("sad").

Hence @aygart's comment


Now that I can respond on a full stomach  ;)


Should I assume your shitos are different the chabad shitos? I mean no disrespect just that I have never heard of anyone not having a baseline of EY is primary all things equal. Mentioning chabad was my way of saying I don't know all their shitos and would be ok with EY not being the baseline if that was the Shita. (which would also not make it sad). If however the baseline is Chutz Laretz is =/> to EY without a serious shita behind it that would be sad. One Shita I can think of would be something along the lines of "Hashem didn't bring us back yet" that would state that the baseline is not EY.

I have 0 issues with staying in chutz l'aretz for a myriad of reasons, however I am still of the belief that starting ground is EY all things equal. Responding that

If the reason is that it may be better for frumkeit then that can be countered by how there are ways that it is worse etc.

Only says to me there may be legitimate reasons to stay. Which is not my point.

A response of a map of Chabad houses all over the world only indicates that there is a major reason to stay in chutz l'aretz vs E"Y but it is surely possible without the reason (whatever it may be) that the baseline is E"Y.

I am hoping that my distinction between a baseline Shita and reasons one way or another is clear.
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: grodnoking on August 11, 2019, 11:19:03 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1772285/moti-steinmentz-backs-out-of-concert-after-court-rules-that-its-illegal-to-have-separate-seating.html
Title: Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
Post by: ExGingi on August 12, 2019, 10:57:55 AM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1772285/moti-steinmentz-backs-out-of-concert-after-court-rules-that-its-illegal-to-have-separate-seating.html

That might actually be a reason to live in EY, in order to be able to have positive influence to counter the Judenrein efforts by those that created the laws upon which the judge in the case ruled.

I don't like the way the frum politicians have been handling this saga. I think this saga can grow on its own and have a scale tipping effect, which is why I started a separate thread for it: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=106427.0