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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: CountValentine on August 31, 2019, 07:08:33 PM

Title: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on August 31, 2019, 07:08:33 PM
We can listen to the same BS, do nothing and watch more die!  >:( >:( >:(
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-shootings-shooter-dead-after-killing-one-person-wounding-at-least-10-authorities-say/ar-AAGCmIZ?ocid=spartanntp

Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 07:01:16 AM
The definition of insanity.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-gun-laws-weapons-will-be-allowed-in-churches-and-on-school-grounds/ar-AAFsFiT?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: rrgg on September 01, 2019, 07:29:34 AM
https://reason.com/2019/08/31/he-went-for-a-big-gulp-he-ended-up-shooting-2-robbers-killing-1/
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Dan on September 01, 2019, 10:52:39 AM
The definition of insanity.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-gun-laws-weapons-will-be-allowed-in-churches-and-on-school-grounds/ar-AAFsFiT?ocid=spartandhp
Should churchgoers not be armed if they want to be?
What would have happened at Chabad of Poway if no congregants were armed?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 11:42:50 AM
Should churchgoers not be armed if they want to be?
What would have happened at Chabad of Poway if no congregants were armed?
The bigger question is do more armed individuals make us safer. We can look at individual situations that suit our viewpoint but that will not solve anything.

Texas has more mass shootings recently than any state. The ban guns side can say that is proof that more guns is not the answer.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Proisrael on September 01, 2019, 12:14:30 PM
Perhaps we should open one for mass stabbings?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-stabbing-lyon-latest-knife-attack-death-toll-injuries-metro-station-a9086751.html
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 12:22:29 PM
Perhaps we should open one for mass stabbings?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-stabbing-lyon-latest-knife-attack-death-toll-injuries-metro-station-a9086751.html
No where near the casualties as mass shootings.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 01, 2019, 02:19:05 PM
The bigger question is do more armed individuals make us safer. We can look at individual situations that suit our viewpoint but that will not solve anything.

Texas has more mass shootings recently than any state. The ban guns side can say that is proof that more guns is not the answer.
A valid point but how many of the mass shootings were cases where the gunman was legally allowed to have his gun there before this bill?
In other words, does this bill give a potential gunman an easier time getting a gun into a place where he couldn't have shot before or does it only make it easier for a potential stopper to have a gun in a place where he couldn't have before?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 02:24:15 PM
A valid point but how many of the mass shootings were cases where the gunman was legally allowed to have his gun there before this bill?
In other words, does this bill give a potential gunman an easier time getting a gun into a place where he couldn't have shot before or does it only make it easier for a potential stopper to have a gun in a place where he couldn't have before?
There is this belief that guns in more places will make you safer. The reason we are not safe is because of to many guns.
Leave the 2A out of this for a second. If tomorrow we could push a magic button and all guns in private citizens hands would disappear would we be more or less safe?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 01, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
There is this belief that guns in more places will make you safer. The reason we are not safe is because of to many guns.
Leave the 2A out of this for a second. If tomorrow we could push a magic button and all guns in private citizens hands would disappear would we be more or less safe?
While it may be true that we are not safe because of too many guns, keeping them out of the hands of people who can stop a mass shooting isn't the answer. Either you get rid of all guns or you make it possible for people to protect themselves, anywhere in the middle and you allow for bad guys to get guns and make it hard for good guys to stop them.
With regards to your magic button question- I won't bother answering it as it's not a realistic scenario and therefore a moot theoretical case which has no bearing on the real world.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Definitions on September 01, 2019, 02:49:05 PM
There is this belief that guns in more places will make you safer. The reason we are not safe is because of to many guns.
Leave the 2A out of this for a second. If tomorrow we could push a magic button and all guns in private citizens hands would disappear would we be more or less safe?
If all guns disappear we will be more safe.
On the other hand if that button magically gives everyone a gun we'll also be more safe from mass shooters. It won't stop the shootings but will significantly reduce casualties.

The downside to that is we will have more people shooting individuals due to conflicts and anger.

The easy way to counteract that would be to impose a death penalty for people who kill.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Luvisrael on September 01, 2019, 02:50:31 PM
If all guns disappear we will be more safe.
On the other hand if that button magically gives everyone a gun we'll also be more safe from mass shooters. It won't stop the shootings but will significantly reduce casualties.

The downside to that is we will have more people shooting individuals due to conflicts and anger.

The easy way to counteract that would be to impose a death penalty for people who kill.
not so sure abt the death penalty as many mass killers have also been suicidal
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 02:55:09 PM
On the other hand if that button magically gives everyone a gun we'll also be more safe from mass shooters. It won't stop the shootings but will significantly reduce casualties.
Are you saying no one in the Walmart shooting had a gun?
Giving everyone a gun would only make us much more unsafe. Can you imagine any large event where dispute/fight breaks out. What do you think is going to happen if everyone has a gun?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 02:56:35 PM
The easy way to counteract that would be to impose a death penalty for people who kill.
That has had zero effect but I am 100% for it based on different reasons.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2019, 03:05:40 PM
not so sure abt the death penalty as many mass killers have also been suicidal
I understood it to only be a solution for conflicts and anger.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
Are you saying no one in the Walmart shooting had a gun?
Giving everyone a gun would only make us much more unsafe. Can you imagine any large event where dispute/fight breaks out. What do you think is going to happen if everyone has a gun?
Do you disagree that they can reduce casualties?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 03:16:49 PM
Do you disagree that they can reduce casualties?
Yes they can but I look at the big picture. It would be a net loss.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Definitions on September 01, 2019, 03:21:26 PM
not so sure abt the death penalty as many mass killers have also been suicidal
Mass shooters (and I guess any public shooter) would be killed by the public before death penalty could come.
Are you saying no one in the Walmart shooting had a gun?
Giving everyone a gun would only make us much more unsafe. Can you imagine any large event where dispute/fight breaks out. What do you think is going to happen if everyone has a gun?
I don't know which Walmart shooting you're talking about. Yes I agree somewhat about the fights. I could be wrong about the death penalty helping.
That has had zero effect but I am 100% for it based on different reasons.
And those are?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 03:35:29 PM
And those are?
Punishment fits the crime.
In most of these cases the death penalty would not come close to fitting the crime. Something like a blowtorch comes to mind. Not bad for a bleeding heart liberal? 
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Dan on September 01, 2019, 03:44:51 PM
The bigger question is do more armed individuals make us safer. We can look at individual situations that suit our viewpoint but that will not solve anything.

Texas has more mass shootings recently than any state. The ban guns side can say that is proof that more guns is not the answer.
For better or worse we can't get rid of guns in this country.
Given that, I don't see why teachers and churchgoers shouldn't be armed if they want to be armed.

It's absurd that universal background checks aren't standard, but that's another story.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2019, 03:51:49 PM
For better or worse we can't get rid of guns in this country.
Given that, I don't see why teachers and churchgoers shouldn't be armed if they want to be armed.

It's absurd that universal background checks aren't standard, but that's another story.
There are some restrictions which make sense and can help such as restricting high capacity magazines.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Dan on September 01, 2019, 03:59:26 PM
There are some restrictions which make sense and can help such as restricting high capacity magazines.
Sure, but I don't see why allowing guns in churches is insanity.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2019, 04:19:43 PM
Sure, but I don't see why allowing guns in churches is insanity.
I hear the argument both ways, but imagine if every brawl could so easily turn into a gunfight.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: TimT on September 01, 2019, 04:27:51 PM
36yo Seth Aaron Ator. His criminal record consists of “Criminal Trespass” on August 1, 2001. A second charge for evading arrest was filed the next day.
I wonder where he was heading when he was stopped. The trooper trying to pull him over might have averted a much bigger tragedy. This was definitely more than road rage.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 01, 2019, 04:57:40 PM
For better or worse we can't get rid of guns in this country.
But we have to stop the growth. There are some guns you can make illegal to own.
Given that, I don't see why teachers and churchgoers shouldn't be armed if they want to be armed.
Very few would take the necessary training they should have.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: gingyguy on September 01, 2019, 10:47:49 PM
no bearing on the real world.
more commonly known as DDF
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 01, 2019, 10:58:08 PM
more commonly known as DDF
My work here is done.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Luvisrael on September 02, 2019, 12:16:48 AM
Sheesh this is crazy https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-walmart-shooting-1-wounded-2-custody
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: thaber on September 02, 2019, 02:34:26 AM
I just watched a video of a brawl at a Rams game. No doubt they if anyone there would have had a gun it would have been drawn.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2019, 07:22:00 AM
I just watched a video of a brawl at a Rams game. No doubt they if anyone there would have had a gun it would have been drawn.
...but if everyone had a gun wouldn't that make you feel much safer?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: thaber on September 02, 2019, 11:46:31 AM
...but if everyone had a gun wouldn't that make you feel much safer?
Not in that scenario, no. But the fact that I know there's a guy carrying two rows back in shul does.
No easy answers.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 02, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
No easy answers.
This. Anyone who thinks there is one is delusional.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2019, 04:49:46 PM
This. Anyone who thinks there is one is delusional.
If there is something which helps then why not do it even if it is an incomplete and imperfect answer?
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2019, 04:55:29 PM
If there is something which helps then why not do it even if it is an incomplete and imperfect answer?
No struggle has easy answers. It is a long and difficult road. If you don't start on that road you will never get to the end. It is easy to tell who is part of the problem and not part of the answer.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 02, 2019, 06:08:40 PM
If there is something which helps then why not do it even if it is an incomplete and imperfect answer?
Not saying we shouldn't, the question is what partial solutions will help without negative consequences. I definitely don't have the answers to any of this, I just like playing devils advocate.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2019, 06:25:09 PM
I just like playing devils advocate.
As does the OP :)
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2019, 06:27:27 PM
As does the OP :)
...but not on this one.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 04, 2019, 08:03:13 PM
Walmart takes a stand.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2019, 08:22:39 PM
Walmart takes a stand.
I would say Walmart caved inasmuch as I am happy with the decision.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 04, 2019, 08:41:47 PM
I would say Walmart caved inasmuch as I am happy with the decision.
Everyone has a breaking point. I believe Kroger is following their lead.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: mmgfarb on September 04, 2019, 11:50:48 PM
Everyone has a breaking point. I believe Kroger is following their lead.
Stopping the sale of certain ammunition is something I get but I don't understand how asking people not to open carry in your stores accomplishes anything other than political gesturing but maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 05, 2019, 07:13:12 AM
Stopping the sale of certain ammunition is something I get but I don't understand how asking people not to open carry in your stores accomplishes anything other than political gesturing but maybe I'm missing something.
Some believe that having every yahoo carrying a weapon is not a good idea. I happen to agree with them. The requirements for a carry permit in IL is a joke.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: Yonah on September 05, 2019, 09:04:31 AM
Late to the party (as usual), w/r/t to people carrying in shul - for me it's not so much as who's carrying. I'm fortunate to have several active and retired military and law enforcement people in my shul. I have no issue with them carrying, because they've been trained for many of the possible situations that might arise.

There are others that carry that have permits to do so, but I'm worried that they're more likely to cause friendly fire incidents - i.e. accidentally hitting a congregant.
Title: Re: We need a separate mass shooting forum.
Post by: CountValentine on September 05, 2019, 03:59:12 PM
Walmart takes a stand.
Everyone has a breaking point. I believe Kroger is following their lead.
Now it looks like Walgreens is following. The weakest president this country has ever seen should grow a set and show some leadership.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/walgreens-asks-shoppers-not-to-carry-firearms-openly/ar-AAGRjKO?ocid=spartandhp