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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Jkhein on November 08, 2011, 09:27:42 AM

Title: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Jkhein on November 08, 2011, 09:27:42 AM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4145537,00.html
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: YudiG on November 08, 2011, 11:04:15 AM
old news, just now we have proof!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 24, 2016, 10:29:44 PM
Time for a bump?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 24, 2016, 10:33:23 PM
Time for a bump?
Oh yeah. Though I applaud Netanyahu for his reaction. He doesn't care to talk nice about BHO anymore - he's out in 4 weeks. Said BHO has been the worst since Jimmy Carter and he can't wait for Trump to get in there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 24, 2016, 10:38:37 PM
He should be careful. There is still damage he can do there over 4 weeks.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 24, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
He should be careful. There is still damage he can do there over 4 weeks.

+1, like recognize a state with borders.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 24, 2016, 10:53:20 PM
Hussain was planning this for a long time. I hope all the pro-Israel Jews who voted for Obama saying "he's not bad for Israel" are burying their heads in shame now.

This is unforgivable.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 24, 2016, 10:58:25 PM
I thought once he saw that he wasn't passing on his legacy to his puppet HRC, he would let Israel go. But no, he had to stick it to them.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 24, 2016, 10:59:00 PM
This is unforgivable.
What is?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 24, 2016, 10:59:49 PM
What is?
What Obama did.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 24, 2016, 11:02:01 PM
What Obama did.
What did he do?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: thaber on December 24, 2016, 11:02:18 PM
What did he do?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/23/politics/us-israel-un-vote-donald-trump-netanyahu/index.html
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 24, 2016, 11:04:56 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/23/politics/us-israel-un-vote-donald-trump-netanyahu/index.html
Oh got it. I understand why you are all upset but Trump should keep his mouth shut until he is president.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 12:00:27 AM
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5260207465001/?#sp=show-clips
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 12:04:32 AM
Oh got it. I understand why you are all upset but Trump should keep his mouth shut until he is president.
As long as Hussein keeps his mouth shut after he's no longer president...
Oh wait he won't
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:07:16 AM
As long as Hussein keeps his mouth shut after he's no longer president...
Oh wait he won't
Who is Hussein? Are you talking about our current president?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 12:12:48 AM
http://nypost.com/2016/12/24/obamas-betrayal-of-israel-is-an-act-of-diplomatic-war/
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 12:16:43 AM
Who is Hussein? Are you talking about our current president?
Correct
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:18:39 AM
Correct
Your racist remarks are getting old.
If 2011 when he veto basically the same resolution do you know why?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 12:22:18 AM
Your racist remarks are getting old.
If 2011 when he veto basically the same resolution do you know why?
When he stops treating Israel like a racist I will consider using his full name. It's insulting for you to come on a forum full of Jews and back his actions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 25, 2016, 12:22:28 AM
Your racist remarks are getting old.
If 2011 when he veto basically the same resolution do you know why?

Yes, because in 2011 he had to win the 2012 election.

Now he has nothing to lose.

But you need not concern yourself with this, only with Trump's dirty words.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:28:12 AM
When he stops treating Israel like a racist I will consider using his full name. It's insulting for you to come on a forum full of Jews and back his actions.
Then report my posts. So anyone who feels the settlements are wrong is a racist?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 12:28:23 AM
Your racist remarks are getting old.
If 2011 when he veto basically the same resolution do you know why?
FTR I'm not sure where you're referring to that I made racist remarks. Is it because I like Trump?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:29:18 AM
Yes, because in 2011 he had to win the 2012 election.

Now he has nothing to lose.

But you need not concern yourself with this, only with Trump's dirty words.
Didn't he say back in 2011 the settlements were wrong?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:30:43 AM
FTR I'm not sure where you're referring to that I made racist remarks. Is it because I like Trump?
You liking Trump is your problem. If that fits in with your views more power to you.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 12:31:15 AM
Then report my posts. So anyone who feels the settlements are wrong is a racist?
This isnt even just about the settlements. Even the Western wall Is Illegal in Israel's hands according to the resolution.
If someone says that the western wall or Jewish holy sites in jewish hands are wrong, then i consider that person a racist.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 25, 2016, 12:33:13 AM
Didn't he say back in 2011 the settlements were wrong?
He said it more than once. Saying something and passing a law are two very different things.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:36:26 AM
He said it more than once. Saying something and passing a law are two very different things.
What law? Israel does not follow UN resolutions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 25, 2016, 12:41:29 AM
Then report my posts. So anyone who feels the settlements are wrong is a racist?

the settlements are only 'wrong' if people think that the U.S. owning and living in Louisiana (added on to US from the French) is 'wrong'.

We inhabit the areas in Israel "fair-and-square"; even above and beyond relying on what is written biblically.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 25, 2016, 12:41:38 AM
What law? Israel does not follow UN resolutions.
Anti-Israel resolutions have never been passed with a superpower member without the veto of a superpower.

This would be the first of its kind.

This is a nod to movements like BDS, giving them legitimacy to go around and say that their boycotts are not Anti-Semitic, but merely in accordance with international law.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:45:23 AM
This is a nod to movements like BDS, giving them legitimacy to go around and say that their boycotts are not Anti-Semitic, but merely in accordance with international law.
We both know the UN is a joke.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 12:49:45 AM
We both know the UN is a joke.
But they unfortunately wield power & their decisions can have consequences.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 12:52:58 AM
I have no issues with what a Muslim born president did for others Muslims. It should be expected.
What I have a issue, is with him masquerading for nearly 8 years as a friend of Israel and Jews, (while he wanted their support to be elected and re-elected), and even hosting a Chanuka party last week and pretending to be their greatest friend, and then showing his true colors. He made sure to make the party real early before Chanuka, so that he wouldn't need to deal with the fallout from his actions at the UN.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 12:55:48 AM
But they unfortunately wield power & their decisions can have consequences.
Considering all the times resolutions have been violated they are pretty much meaningless. Is Israel going change what they are currently doing based on this decision. I don't think so. They are going to do what is in their best interest just as the US will do.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 12:55:56 AM
I have no issues with what a Muslim born president did for others Muslims. It should be expected.
What I have a issue, is with him masquerading for nearly 8 years as a friend of Israel and Jews, (while he wanted their support to be elected and re-elected), and even hosting a Chanuka party last week and pretending to be their greatest friend, and then showing his true colors. He made sure to make the party real early before Chanuka, so that he wouldn't need to deal with the fallout from his actions at the UN.
Well said now we're just waiting for our in house anti-semite to justify it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:00:50 AM
Well said now we're just waiting for our in house anti-semite to justify it.
Any other insults you want to throw out there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:01:26 AM
I have no issues with what a Muslim born president did for others Muslims.
What is "Muslim born"?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:02:04 AM
Considering all the times resolutions have been violated they are pretty much meaningless. Is Israel going change what they are currently doing based on this decision. I don't think so. They are going to do what is in their best interest just as the US will do.
It could affect other nations dealings with Israel. Still too early to tell
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:03:56 AM
It could affect other nations dealings with Israel. Still too early to tell
This is like HRC/Trump. Everyone has basically picked sides and I don't see it changing.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 01:04:58 AM
Oh got it. I understand why you are all upset but Trump should keep his mouth shut until he is president.

As long as Hussein keeps his mouth shut after he's no longer president...
Oh wait he won't
Replace Hussein with Barack and respond.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:06:07 AM
This is like HRC/Trump. Everyone has basically picked sides and I don't see it changing.
Wouldn't sanctions hurt Israel ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 01:06:47 AM
What is "Muslim born"?
"Supposedly" he converted to Christianity.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:08:45 AM
Wouldn't sanctions hurt Israel ?
Yes but that wasn't in this resolution was it?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
"Supposedly" he converted to Christianity.
You said he was "Muslim born" what does that mean?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:09:59 AM
Yes but that wasn't in this resolution was it?
Isn't that the next step ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 25, 2016, 01:10:08 AM
Wait a minute. Let's be clear.

JTZ is in no way an anti-semite, he is an old time troll. That's all. Now Vaytur.

He is such a talented troll that sometimes a whole thread starts taking him seriously..

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 01:10:23 AM
You said he was "Muslim born" what does that mean?
GIYF  https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/02/rush-limbaugh-on-obama-why-did-he-choose-to-become-a-christian
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:10:45 AM
Has Trump blasted Russia for their vote ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 25, 2016, 01:11:57 AM
Oh and yeah I'm ashamed from Obama as well.

Such a Suneh Yisrael. Haman. Yemach shemoi.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 01:12:00 AM
Has Trump blasted Russia for their vote ?
they never made a pretense of being allies
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:15:31 AM
Isn't that the next step ?
IMHO the US would veto something like that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:16:26 AM
IMHO the US would veto something like that.
Nothings sure anymore
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:16:51 AM
GIYF  https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/02/rush-limbaugh-on-obama-why-did-he-choose-to-become-a-christian
What part explains what "Muslim born" is. So I will ask again what do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:17:26 AM
Nothings sure anymore
Especially come 1/20.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 01:18:41 AM
Especially come 1/20.
I meant if they try rushing something through before then.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 01:19:38 AM
Yes but that wasn't in this resolution was it?
http://nypost.com/2016/12/24/obamas-betrayal-of-israel-is-an-act-of-diplomatic-war/

If you read the last few paragraphs, there would be consequences.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:20:50 AM
Wait a minute. Let's be clear.

JTZ is in no way an anti-semite, he is an old time troll. That's all. Now Vaytur.

He is such a talented troll that sometimes a whole thread starts taking him seriously..
Lets be clear here. We must demonize anyone who does not follow 100% lock step with what's best for Israel.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: grodnoking on December 25, 2016, 01:22:42 AM
Here
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:23:14 AM
Maybe there is a silver lining.

"Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-NC) said on Friday he would launch a drive to slash US funding for the United Nations as result of this resolution."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 01:33:43 AM
Lets be clear here. We must demonize anyone who does not follow 100% lock step with what's best for Israel.
No people who claim to be friends of Israel and are actually foes, I know of 2.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:35:26 AM
No people who claim to be friends of Israel and are actually foes, I know of 2.
Just two? You need to get out more.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: efflpetzel on December 25, 2016, 03:36:12 AM
I'm with JTZ here, there's no need for name calling & racist nonsense.

As a good friend of ours said

'The effect of a UN resolution can be as severe as a trending hashtag'
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: mmgfarb on December 25, 2016, 03:50:25 AM
there's no need for name calling & racist nonsense
When the day comes that those are eradicated on DDF please let me know.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Proisrael on December 25, 2016, 05:10:30 AM
Just two? You need to get out more.

Can you just come out to calm everyone down....Your Neturei Karta and support resolutions against the Jewish people living in Israel. Nothing more needs to be said.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: David Smith on December 25, 2016, 06:12:59 AM
Can you just come out to calm everyone down....Your Neturei Karta and support resolutions against the Jewish people living in Israel. Nothing more needs to be said.
Title: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: oiseli48 on December 25, 2016, 07:45:56 AM
Name calling diverts attention from the issue at hand.

If you don't support the settlements, then you surely aren't a hypocrite, and don't support the US annexation of Texas and California from Mexico. Or the entire US for that matter, founded on innocent Native American blood.

Israel won the West Bank in a defensive war against JORDAN, which relinquished their claim to the land in 1995. Anyone who thinks it belongs to anyone besides Israel, is ignorant or an anti-Semite.

(I would say IMHO, but not when people's lives are at stake)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 10:37:17 AM
But they unfortunately wield power & their decisions can have consequences.

Such as?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: bubbles on December 25, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Now Israel can basically just ignore everyone completely and build settlements wherever they want since everything is illegal anyway.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: bubbles on December 25, 2016, 10:43:11 AM
Lets be clear here. We must demonize anyone who does not follow 100% lock step with what's best for Israel.
Just curious. Are you read up on the issues? What is the reasoning in your opinion for the the western wall to be an illegal settlement?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 10:45:46 AM
Just curious. Are you read up on the issues? What is the reasoning in your opinion for the the western wall to be an illegal settlement?

I like to think I'm pretty read up. Who says the Western Wall is an illegal settlement??  Maybe start reading actual releases and resolutions rather than misleading headlines solely from publications that conform to your worldview.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: YitzyS on December 25, 2016, 10:51:55 AM
Isn't this strange: Senators Cruz and Graham are calling on the US to stop funding to the UN. I find it weird - the US had veto power and they chose not to use it. So why would the US agree to stop funding the UN - for doing something the US technocally agreed to?! I personally think that the UN should be labeled a terror organization, but from the eyes of the US decisionmakers who didn't veto the bill, the arguement should to make no sense. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 10:54:36 AM
Isn't this strange: Senators Cruz and Graham are calling on the US to stop funding to the UN. I find it weird - the US had veto power and they chose not to use it. So why would the US agree to stop funding the UN - for doing something the US technocally agreed to?! I personally think that the UN should be labeled a terror organization, but from the eyes of the US decisionmakers who didn't veto the bill, the arguement should to make no sense. Am I missing something?

International diplomacy generally only requires one decision maker: POTUS. Our budget and who we fund is determined by Congress.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 25, 2016, 10:54:57 AM
I like to think I'm pretty read up. Who says the Western Wall is an illegal settlement??  Maybe start reading actual releases and resolutions rather than misleading headlines solely from publications that conform to your worldview.
-1
Definitely time for more reading. It's a direct quote from Netanyahu that they UN is accusing the Western Wall of existing in 'occupied territory': Quote:
Israeli reaction: 'Gang-up at the UN'
Mr Netanyahu said: "Israel rejects this shameful anti-Israel resolution at the UN and will not abide by its terms.
"At a time when the Security Council does nothing to stop the slaughter of half-a-million people in Syria, it disgracefully gangs up on the one true democracy in the Middle East, Israel, and calls the Western Wall 'occupied territory'."

Source Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38425512
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: bubbles on December 25, 2016, 10:58:39 AM

1. Question wasn't directed at you. I was asking JTZ if his comments were based on knowledge

2. Is the western wall located in occupied Palestinian territory according to the resolution?

3. Replace western wall with other parts of eastern Jerusalem
I like to think I'm pretty read up. Who says the Western Wall is an illegal settlement??  Maybe start reading actual releases and resolutions rather than misleading headlines solely from publications that conform to your worldview.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 11:00:49 AM
-1
Definitely time for more reading. It's a direct quote from Netanyahu that they UN is accusing the Western Wall of existing in 'occupied territory': Quote:
Israeli reaction: 'Gang-up at the UN'
Mr Netanyahu said: "Israel rejects this shameful anti-Israel resolution at the UN and will not abide by its terms.
"At a time when the Security Council does nothing to stop the slaughter of half-a-million people in Syria, it disgracefully gangs up on the one true democracy in the Middle East, Israel, and calls the Western Wall 'occupied territory'."

Source Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38425512

Reading comprehension fail. That's not what bubbles said. And amyway, find me the language in the resolution, not in Bibi's response.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: YitzyS on December 25, 2016, 11:12:28 AM
Thanks Aaaron for the clarification regarding the funding.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 25, 2016, 11:22:27 AM
Reading comprehension fail. That's not what bubbles said. And anyway, find me the language in the resolution, not in Bibi's response.
here is resolution 2334 language: https://www.un.org/press/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

 Yes, the Western wall is in East Jerusalem, that's the point of "Yom Yerushalyim"! That we regained it in 1967. The Arabs want all pre-'67 borders, which includes the Kotel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Day
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 11:27:48 AM
here is resolution 2334 language: https://www.un.org/press/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

 Yes, the Western wall is in East Jerusalem, that's the point of "Yom Yerushalyim"! That we regained it in 1967. The Arabs want all pre-'67 borders, which includes the Kotel.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Day

I know all of that. Nowhere does it call the Kosel an "illegal settlement.". Using false, attention-grabbing terminology doesn't help any arguments.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:45:20 AM
I know all of that. Nowhere does it call the Kosel an "illegal settlement.". Using false, attention-grabbing terminology doesn't help any arguments.
That is semantics. The only reason it wouldn't be an illegal settlement is because it is not a settlement since no one lives there. The Jewish Quarter would be an illegal settlement. The point is the same.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 11:55:13 AM
That is semantics. The only reason it wouldn't be an illegal settlement is because it is not a settlement since no one lives there. The Jewish Quarter would be an illegal settlement. The point is the same.

A:  Semantics matter here.  Hyperbolic terminology just demonstrates an inherent bias.
B:  The Jewish Quarter would not be an illegal settlement, since it's not a settlement.

And no one has answered my question, what harmful effects with this resolution cause?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 25, 2016, 11:58:53 AM
So the literally entire world says that Israel is wrong, but Bibi dismisses them off hand...

Wait, is Israel a world super power or a tiny, surrounded and dependent nation?

A little humility and reality check is in order ASAP!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 12:01:44 PM
A:  Semantics matter here.  Hyperbolic terminology just demonstrates an inherent bias.
B:  The Jewish Quarter would not be an illegal settlement, since it's not a settlement.

And no one has answered my question, what harmful effects with this resolution cause?
Why is the Jewish Quarter not a settlement?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 25, 2016, 12:02:02 PM
So the literally entire world says that Israel is wrong, but Bibi dismisses them off hand...

Wait, is Israel a world super power or a tiny, surrounded and dependent nation?

A little humility and reality check is in order ASAP!

Or maybe you need some Jewish-pride, and a reality-check yourself. Israel has been standing up to the whole world for nearly 70 years now. We might be small in number, or in GDP, but that isn't where our power comes from :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 12:04:10 PM
Why is the Jewish Quarter not a settlement?

In terms of actual definition, you may be correct, that residing in them constitutes a settlement.  But for all typical intents and purposes, to be a settlement that the UN and Geneva Convention take issue with, it must be constructed on "occupied" land.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 12:06:08 PM
In terms of actual definition, you may be correct, that residing in them constitutes a settlement.  But for all typical intents and purposes, to be a settlement that the UN and Geneva Convention take issue with, it must be constructed on "occupied" land.
The buildings in the Jewish Quarter were constructed after 67 and therefore according to this resolution were constructed on occupied land.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 12:12:03 PM
The buildings in the Jewish Quarter were constructed after 67 and therefore according to this resolution were constructed on occupied land.

Wow, I didn't realize that.  Fair enough.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 12:17:32 PM
One thing the resolution certainly does is make a negotiated resolution more difficult. The worst thing to do prior to negotiations is to make the expectations of one side stronger. THis is especially if it crosses wat is almost certain to be across a red line of the opposing side. There is almost no way that Israel can agree to what this resolution gives an impression as being the starting point of negotiations. This creates a situation where a negotiated agreement is much more difficult to achieve.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 25, 2016, 12:28:10 PM



And no one has answered my question, what harmful effects with this resolution cause?
For one, lends false credence to the hypocritical and rabble rousing group BDS.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 25, 2016, 12:59:31 PM
Read this:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/unscr-2334-israeli-settlements
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Aaaron on December 25, 2016, 01:20:39 PM
One thing the resolution certainly does is make a negotiated resolution more difficult. The worst thing to do prior to negotiations is to make the expectations of one side stronger. THis is especially if it crosses wat is almost certain to be across a red line of the opposing side. There is almost no way that Israel can agree to what this resolution gives an impression as being the starting point of negotiations. This creates a situation where a negotiated agreement is much more difficult to achieve.

That's fair.  But I don't believe it will have any bearing on any concessions Israel may make if and when peace is approached.

For one, lends false credence to the hypocritical and rabble rousing group BDS.


And therefore what?

Read this:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/unscr-2334-israeli-settlements

Good article, but a lot of "mights."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 25, 2016, 01:23:27 PM


And therefore what?
Promotes, fuels, and spreads the growth of hate. Has economic repercussions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 01:46:28 PM
Read this:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/unscr-2334-israeli-settlements
+1
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 02:01:44 PM


That's fair.  But I don't believe it will have any bearing on any concessions Israel may make if and when peace is approached.
Is bearing may be limited on Israeli concessions but may have bearing on Palestinian concessions. It certainly puts them in a weaker position going into negotiations which is the entire reason the Palestinians wanted this.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 25, 2016, 02:44:52 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12/25/israel-accuses-obama-administration-helping-craft-push-un-censure.html

BHO at his best.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 03:10:06 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/is-obama-preparing-a-parting-shot-at-israel/2016/10/27/770e7fb6-9c79-11e6-b3c9-f662adaa0048_story.html?utm_term=.819cad87427f (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/is-obama-preparing-a-parting-shot-at-israel/2016/10/27/770e7fb6-9c79-11e6-b3c9-f662adaa0048_story.html?utm_term=.819cad87427f)
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/07/trump-should-challenge-clinton-on-obamas-terrible-two-state-solution-plan-debate-israel-palestine-middle-east/ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/07/trump-should-challenge-clinton-on-obamas-terrible-two-state-solution-plan-debate-israel-palestine-middle-east/)

Is he being alarmist or is this a legit concern?

Which of the two candidates would be more likely to uphold what he does or fight against it? Is there anything either of them could possibly do?

What else can Obama possibly do after the election?


First, Obama can't "do" anything, so yes, this is simply alarmist. He can try to place pressure much like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, but it's unlikely to affect anything -- not this late in his term anyway.

Hillary will likely take a middle-road, much like Obama and Bill Clinton.

With Trump, I would be very concerned. He cancelled a trip to Israel because he didn't like something that Netanyahu said. He also hesitated to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and only "clarified" his stance once under pressure. Despite his rants on Twitter about he supports Israel, he simply can't be trusted.
Why can't he do what the article says by allowing a two state through the security council? He can do that without congress.


I would be very surprised if that happened. He will likely focus on social justice issues as he has been doing all along.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 25, 2016, 10:31:42 PM
Or maybe you need some Jewish-pride, and a reality-check yourself. Israel has been standing up to the whole world for nearly 70 years now. We might be small in number, or in GDP, but that isn't where our power comes from :)
Let's talk about Bibi for a second. A mechalel shabbos befarhesya misyavenik..
If I was an average gentile I would think he's deranged. At this point he doesn't have a single friend in the world. Yet he is still defiant, and has the chutzpah to "lecture" the world... I honestly think some humility is in order.

Even ABC says he has basically nothing at all to rely on at this time. I agree that he has been humbled. But where is the humility?

This is an extremely dangerous situation.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161226/81fc9e5fbcfb3c60e3431a9c39ac7a6e.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 10:46:34 PM
This is an extremely dangerous situation.
Not sure why you would think that. He is putting his hopes in such an upstanding and stable person.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 25, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
Not sure why you would think that. He is putting his hopes in such an upstanding and stable person.
LOL and it's still a couple of week untill the savior arrives..  lots can happen gd forbid.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 25, 2016, 10:48:57 PM
Not sure why you would think that. He is putting his hopes in such an upstanding and stable person.
At least even according to you there's a chance Trump will do good even though it may depend on what side of the bed be wakes up on, with Hussein there was never a chance.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 10:53:26 PM
LOL and it's still a couple of week untill the savior arrives.. 
Funny you should use the word "savior". The way some here worship him I was thinking of another word.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 10:59:09 PM
If it is true that the US created the resolution as some are claiming this may only be a sign of things to come.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:01:17 PM
If it is true that the US created the resolution as some are claiming this may only be a sign of things to come.
Of course it is true. It was reported by FOX and they have never been wrong. Oh wait ...  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:02:37 PM
Of course it is true. It was reported by FOX and they have never been wrong. Oh wait ...  :)
That is not something you heard from me.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 11:03:41 PM
this may only be a sign of things to come.
Care to elaborate on this part ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:05:32 PM
That is not something you heard from me.
You are correct. It was from the person who claimed BO was Muslim born and his sidekick.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12/25/israel-accuses-obama-administration-helping-craft-push-un-censure.html
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:05:33 PM
Care to elaborate on this part ?
See what I quoted in this post.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:12:14 PM
Of course it is true. It was reported by FOX and they have never been wrong. Oh wait ...  :)
It is an accusation made by an Israeli spokesman and worth exactly that. He happens to have made that accusation on fox
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:15:38 PM
See what I quoted in this post.
Maybe Bibi should read that. Very stupid to attack someone who has so much power to still yield.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 11:20:20 PM
Maybe Bibi should read that. Very stupid to attack someone who has so much power to still yield.
Don't think it really matters much whether he stays quiet or not. BO has his plans
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:22:39 PM
Don't think it really matters much whether he stays quiet or not. BO has his plans
It might not but do you see any way it could help? What if it was Trump that did this and Bibi attacked him. What do you think the response would be?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 11:27:52 PM
Do you think this is revenge for Bibi's speech to congress ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 25, 2016, 11:29:35 PM
Maybe Bibi should read that. Very stupid to attack someone who has so much power to still yield.
+1
It might not but do you see any way it could help? What if it was Trump that did this and Bibi attacked him. What do you think the response would be?
Terrifying. Bibi better find his place soon. Trump is no Obama...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:30:10 PM
Do you think this is revenge for Bibi's speech to congress ?
No. It is no secret from day one BO was against any more settlements and for a two state solution.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 11:30:45 PM
No. It is no secret from day one BO was against any more settlements and for a two state solution.
Then why wait till now ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:34:18 PM
Then why wait till now ?
Your guess is as good as mine.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 25, 2016, 11:35:44 PM
Your guess is as good as mine.
IMHO this does not come from BO.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:37:05 PM
+1Terrifying. Bibi better find his place soon. Trump is no Obama...
There is nothing to worry about as long as Bibi knows his place. What a great position for Israel to be in, NOT!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:38:07 PM
IMHO this does not come from BO.
He had to sign off on it. Who is pushing it then?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:42:51 PM
No. It is no secret from day one BO was against any more settlements and for a two state solution.
That is not the same thing as a U.N.resolution.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:44:50 PM
Maybe Bibi should read that. Very stupid to attack someone who has so much power to still yield.
Agree. I have a feeling he is trying to ratchet up the pressure already from this hoping to prevent anything more.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 25, 2016, 11:45:07 PM
That is not the same thing as a U.N.resolution.
Would you agree that BO believes building more settlements makes it harder to achieve peace?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:47:13 PM
It might not but do you see any way it could help? What if it was Trump that did this and Bibi attacked him. What do you think the response would be?
Obama has been pretty ruthless against those who go up against him while we have not yet seen Trump do more than tweet. We have yet to see his bite being anywhere comparable to his bark.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 25, 2016, 11:47:56 PM
Would you agree that BO believes building more settlements makes it harder to achieve peace?

yes, BHO believes that, just like he believes that handing over the West Bank will bring peaceful responses from the Palestinians.

History has shown us otherwise -- the handover of the land of Gaza resulted in destruction of the greenhouses there and years of kidnappings, tunnel assaults, and constant rockets and stabbings. Ending settlements will have identical results.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 11:48:32 PM
Would you agree that BO believes building more settlements makes it harder to achieve peace?
Yes. I think that has been the belief of most presidents.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: grodnoking on December 25, 2016, 11:50:03 PM
Would you agree that BO believes building more settlements makes it harder to achieve peace?
Isn't Bo the presidential dog?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 25, 2016, 11:52:41 PM
No. It is no secret from day one BO was against any more settlements and for a two state solution.
This resolution is so much more than that. Every US president has been against settlements and for two states.

See here for a start:

Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 25, 2016, 11:58:35 PM
My theory is that Obama is afraid about trump working out a piece deal between Israel and the Palestinians, and he does not wanna be the biggest fool that in his 8 years he did absolutely nothing. So he does whatever he can that delays piece. He surly knows that this resolution is a "no" to piece. And that's what he wants.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:07:31 AM
Can someone start a wiki for all the different reasons BO did this? My head is spinning.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 12:07:37 AM
Funny you should use the word "savior". The way some here worship him I was thinking of another word.

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/11384a396ae248c339dc9299cc772fef.png)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:10:14 AM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/11384a396ae248c339dc9299cc772fef.png)
Trump = Jesus
Obama = Messiah
Isn't this backwards?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 26, 2016, 12:15:36 AM
Can someone start a wiki for all the different reasons BO did this? My head is spinning.
Use mine.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 12:18:09 AM
Use mine.
The only thing that made sense in your post was calling the peace process a piece process.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 12:19:37 AM
Can someone start a wiki for all the different reasons BO did this? My head is spinning.
Because he loves Muslims more than Jews. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:20:53 AM
Because he loves Muslims more than Jews. Plain and simple.
Is that why you say he is "Muslim born"?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 26, 2016, 12:22:00 AM
Because he loves Muslims more than Jews. Plain and simple.
Then why wait till now ?
He could've done it the day after winning his second term.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 12:27:24 AM
Is that why you say he is "Muslim born"?
Correct. As i wrote upthread, his father was Muslim. According to Islamic law, if your father is a Muslim, you are a Muslim.
I also wrote above that i fully understand why he did what he did, because as a Muslim, of course he should rather be a friend of Muslims rather than Jews.
My only issue was, that why pretend to be a friend of Israel and Jews for nearly 8 years, and then stick it to them. You need to be honest.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
Correct. As i wrote upthread, his father was Muslim. According to Islamic law, if your father is a Muslim, you are a Muslim.
I also wrote above that i fully understand why he did what he did, because as a Muslim, of course he should rather be a friend of Muslims rather than Jews.
My only issue was, that why pretend to be a friend of Israel and Jews for nearly 8 years, and then stick it to them. You need to be honest.
I thought you follow Jewish law? I must ask are you a US citizen? If so how about following our laws?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 12:35:30 AM
I thought you follow Jewish law? I must ask are you a US citizen? If so how about following our laws?
I think you are having trouble staying on conversation. You asked why I called him Muslim Born. I responded to you that he was indeed born Muslim.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yelped on December 26, 2016, 12:36:06 AM
He could've done it the day after winning his second term.
Didn't want to ruin Hillary's chances at getting into the white house.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:41:09 AM
I think you are having trouble staying on conversation. You asked why I called him Muslim Born. I responded to you that he was indeed born Muslim.
...but it makes no sense. You are using laws as a basis that you don't believe in. Lets try a simple one. Was BO born an American?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 12:42:55 AM
...but it makes no sense. You are using laws as a basis that you don't believe in. Lets try a simple one. Was BO born an American?
You can start another thread for that if it doesnt already exist.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:46:38 AM
You can start another thread for that if it doesnt already exist.
Simple yes or no. What's the problem or are you a birther?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 26, 2016, 12:47:44 AM
You can start another thread for that if it doesnt already exist.
But then he wouldn't be able to talk about it because he doesn't like talking about the subject at hand.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 12:48:16 AM
...but it makes no sense. You are using laws as a basis that you don't believe in. Lets try a simple one. Was BO born an American?
Of course he was-his mother was American and therefore he would be regardless of his location of birth. I never understood the whole birther thing since he is according to all scenarios a citizen from birth and not a naturalized one.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:51:52 AM
But then he wouldn't be able to talk about it because he doesn't like talking about the subject at hand.
The subject at hand is that most here believe BO is not a friend of Israel. I have no problem with that position. What I do have is a problem with your and others racist comments.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: TimT on December 26, 2016, 12:56:13 AM
Didn't want to ruin Hillary's chances at getting into the white house.
There is no love lost between the 2 of them.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 12:57:59 AM
There is no love lost between the 2 of them.
except that he was stuck with her as the best chance to protect his fragile legacy of executive action.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 01:00:14 AM
Simple yes or no. What's the problem or are you a birther?
I have no problem. Most of us aren't liberal crybabies who cant accept the outcome of an election. He was elected for 2 terms by the American people and we need to live with that whether we like it or not. I have no clue where he was born, and i dont care either. If a majority of Americans picked him to be president, he is our President.

But all that has nothing to do with this thread. This thread has to do with BHO and his treatment of Israel. Some people dont understand how he did what he did on Friday to Israel. I on the other hand understand why he chose to mistreat Israel, being that he was born an American (Nationality),Muslim (Religion).  My only issue is the two-face part, where for 8 years you claim to be the friend of Israel, but once you dont need Jewish votes (for yourself or HRC), you show your true face.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 01:11:57 AM
But all that has nothing to do with this thread. This thread has to do with BHO and his treatment of Israel. Some people dont understand how he did what he did on Friday to Israel. I on the other hand understand why he chose to mistreat Israel, being that he was born an American (Nationality),Muslim (Religion).  My only issue is the two-face part, where for 8 years you claim to be the friend of Israel, but once you dont need Jewish votes (for yourself or HRC), you show your true face.
Your issue is claiming he is a Muslim and that is why he did it. No mater what religion you believe in you can't force that on anyone else. He chooses his religion not you.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 26, 2016, 01:17:49 AM
Bibi believes that coming out so strong against Obama will create pressure on Obama not to continue down this path, from both sides of the isle. ( If he's correct is something else..)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 01:21:27 AM
 
Your issue is claiming he is a Muslim and that is why he did it. No mater what religion you believe in you can't force that on anyone else. He chooses his religion not you.


Did anyone here try to force any religion on him? ???
On the contrary, being that he is Muslim, he has everyright be more pro Muslim if he chooses to. But if he is a muslim that hates Israel, dont masquerade for  nearly 8 years to be a friend of Isreal.
 I dont think I can be any clearer with you.  Lets see if you can say, "i get your point now".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on December 26, 2016, 01:27:42 AM
Bibi believes that coming out so strong against Obama will create pressure on Obama not to continue down this path, from both sides of the isle. ( If he's correct is something else..)
that could be one possibility.
Although IMHO it is simply for his own political sake to show Israel that it's Obama's fault and he will stand up for israel. Etc.
Bibi is an excellent politician.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 01:35:00 AM
Did anyone here try to force any religion on him? ???
On the contrary, being that he is Muslim, he has everyright be more pro Muslim if he chooses to. But if he is a muslim that hates Israel, dont masquerade for  nearly 8 years to be a friend of Isreal.
 I dont think I can be any clearer with you.  Lets see if you can say, "i get your point now".
I get your point that you feel he is a fraud when it comes to Israel.
You claimed he was born Muslum (religion) which is not true. You are forcing that religion on him and it doesn't work that way.
I on the other hand understand why he chose to mistreat Israel, being that he was born an American (Nationality),Muslim (Religion). 
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 01:35:51 AM
Although IMHO it is simply for his own political sake to show Israel that it's Obama's fault and he will stand up for israel. Etc.
Bibi is an excellent politician.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 01:48:26 AM
I get your point that you feel he is a fraud when it comes to Israel.
You claimed he was born Muslum (religion) which is not true. You are forcing that religion on him and it doesn't work that way.
Even if he was born "athiest", he never liked Israel, and was just a fraud by pretending to have Israel's best interests in mind all these years, yet now when he or HRC dont need the Jewish votes in Florida, he showed his true colors.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 01:53:58 AM
Even if he was born "athiest", he never liked Israel, and was just a fraud by pretending to have Israel's best interests in mind all these years, yet now when he or HRC dont need the Jewish votes in Florida, he showed his true colors.
Fair enough and I just disagree. Will have to check the results to see if the Jewish vote changed anything.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 01:58:31 AM
Fair enough and I just disagree. Will have to check the results to see if the Jewish vote changed anything.
Which part are we disagreeing on?  You think he always liked Israel, and now he suddenly had a change of heart and liked to see the nations of the world gang up on Israel?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 02:03:22 AM
Which part are we disagreeing on?
Being a fraud. As I said before from day one he was against the settlements and for a two state solution. AFAIK he never tried to stop military aid to Israel. I guess he just wasn't Israel's BFF.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2016, 02:07:30 AM
Being a fraud. As I said before from day one he was against the settlements and for a two state solution. AFAIK he never tried to stop military aid to Israel. I guess he just wasn't Israel's BFF.  :)
I agree with you that he felt that way since day one.
He just pretended otherwise all these years, and now he was at liberty to show his true face, since he wasnt afraid of possible election consequences for himself or HRC.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 26, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on December 26, 2016, 02:27:18 AM
Politicians have to be politicians which includes playing political games. In principle, however, I agree with Bibi.
Whether or not the sttlements are in fact wrong can be debated, but there is a reason the US has not never acted in this manner. Throughout GOP and democratic presidents.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on December 26, 2016, 02:28:44 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
-1
All he has to do is look back at US policy on Israel and see that this was never done. Then he can go look and see why it's been that way. Basic logic. You don't need to be a president to figure that out.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 26, 2016, 02:31:42 AM
-1
All he has to do is look back at US policy on Israel and see that this was never done. Then he can go look and see why it's been that way. Basic logic. You don't need to be a president to figure that out.

Again, he doesn't think it's anti-Israel. He likes to consider himself a guy who got things done that others couldn't. He sees this as the same as socialized medicine and gay marriage. No particular anti-Semitism involved. Just Liberalism and a big ego.

All I'm saying is don't take it personal.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 26, 2016, 02:40:49 AM
Again, he doesn't think it's anti-Israel. He likes to consider himself a guy who got things done that others couldn't. He sees this as the same as socialized medicine and gay marriage. No particular anti-Semitism involved. Just Liberalism and a big ego.

All I'm saying is don't take it personal.
According to you why wasn't this done throughout his presidency? Because he wasn't ready to do the "right thing" and take the heat. Moreover he won't accomplish anything in the next 26 days. it's all about legacy...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 26, 2016, 02:45:36 AM
According to you why wasn't this done throughout his presidency? Because he wasn't ready to do the "right thing" and take the heat. Moreover he won't accomplish anything in the next 26 days. it's all about legacy...

Your last sentence summed it up. Correct. And that was my point as well.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 26, 2016, 05:10:00 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
+1
Title: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: oiseli48 on December 26, 2016, 06:23:20 AM
Obama's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel.

Somehow I feel that growing up listening to Jeremiah Wright's anti Israel rants actually made him a bit worse off than your average liberal Jew
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 07:50:53 AM
no thanks. I totally disagree with you on everything and I think you completely missed my point. I almost want to delete my post now that I see it being quoted by you.
Your welcome!  :P
You made the statement not me and your point was perfectly clear.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 08:00:40 AM
PSA: Be careful saying BO is not a Muslim. You will be labeled a self-hating Jew or anti-Semitic.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 08:20:52 AM
The subject at hand is that most here believe BO is not a friend of Israel. I have no problem with that position. What I do have is a problem with your and others racist comments.
Without reading the responses, 1000 times this.
Title: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: oiseli48 on December 26, 2016, 08:25:23 AM
Of course it is true. It was reported by FOX and they have never been wrong. Oh wait ...  :)

It's on CNN now too.

Netanyahu spokesman David Keyes told CNN's Dana Bash on Sunday, "We have iron-clad information, frankly, that the Obama administration really helped push this resolution and helped craft it, from sources internationally and sources in the Arab world."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/25/politics/israel-un-settlements-netanyahu-ambassadors/index.html
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 08:27:45 AM
This made anyone who ever dismissed Obama being called anti Israel - myself included, to an extent - look mighty stupid.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 08:28:46 AM
It's on CNN now too.

Netanyahu spokesman David Keyes told CNN's Dana Bash on Sunday, "We have iron-clad information, frankly, that the Obama administration really helped push this resolution and helped craft it, from sources internationally and sources in the Arab world."
Yes David Keyes is making that claim. I will hold off judgement until I see the iron-clad information.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 26, 2016, 08:52:01 AM
The irony here is that Obama (on some level) did this because he doesn't like Bibi (or to be more charitable, believes Bibi is not interested in peace) yet while this move hurts Israel it strengths Bibi and the right (politically).
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 09:19:54 AM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rabbi-uses-national-menorah-lighting-to-trash-obama-un-move/article/2610369#.WGB7EEvVL8U.facebook
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 26, 2016, 09:23:20 AM
Yes David Keyes is making that claim. I will hold off judgement until I see the iron-clad information.  ;)
Now you sound like Putins spokesman dismissing the hack...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 09:29:38 AM
Now you sound like Putins spokesman dismissing the hack...
Obamas rep denies the claim. Who is telling the truth, flip a coin.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 09:48:56 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
Bear in mind tht a resolution almost exactly like this one WAS vetoed by the US a few years ago.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 09:50:46 AM
Yes David Keyes is making that claim. I will hold off judgement until I see the iron-clad information.  ;)
One thing visible to everyone is how Egypt took the resolution off the table until AFTERWARDS the US got word out that it would not veto it and then it came back to life.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 09:52:55 AM
The irony here is that Obama (on some level) did this because he doesn't like Bibi (or to be more charitable, believes Bibi is not interested in peace) yet while this move hurts Israel it strengths Bibi and the right (politically).
But Trump is the vindictive one since he may write a tweet against someone who insulted him ::) .
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 09:55:58 AM
If you think that he is a Muslim you are probably paranoid, but if you think that his upbringing doesn't influence his worldview you are probably naive.

If you think that Wright made him hate America you are probably paranoid, but if you think that his sermons don't influence his politics you are probably naive.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Sport on December 26, 2016, 09:57:15 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
+1 although I wouldn't be certain of his motives this is by far the most reasonable. What erks me more is people who defended Obama for years saying he was the best friend Israel had in the white house.
I always felt he wasn't so great for Israel but never was able to honestly substantiate the claim without relying on biased information.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 09:59:37 AM
If you think that he is a Muslim you are probably paranoid, but if you think that his upbringing doesn't influence his worldview you are probably naive.

If you think that Wright made him hate America you are probably paranoid, but if you think that his sermons don't influence his politics you are probably naive.
Yes your upbringing affects the way you view things. Just look at the members here.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 10:01:20 AM
Yes your upbringing affects the way you view things. Just look at the members here.  :)
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:03:22 AM
Can someone explain this friends thing to me?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 10:03:24 AM
Obamas rep denies the claim. Who is telling the truth, flip a coin.
False dilemma. It is almost certain that both are partially true but grossly exaggerated.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:04:45 AM
False dilemma. It is almost certain that both are partially true but grossly exaggerated.
OK then:
I will hold off judgement until I see the iron-clad information.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Brian93 on December 26, 2016, 10:12:03 AM
Would mean so much more now if Trump moves the embassy to Jerusalem
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 26, 2016, 10:14:33 AM
Obamas rep denies the claim. Who is telling the truth, flip a coin.
While most countries tend to deny actions their spy agencies, your talking about a hostile accusation by a friendly country that needs the US. it doesn't make any sense to take the risk of a false accusation that could be disproven.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:17:13 AM
Your issue is claiming he is a Muslim and that is why he did it. No mater what religion you believe in you can't force that on anyone else. He chooses his religion not you.

If I was born in the united states, I am American. I can later denounce my american citizenship, because denouncing my american citizenship is within American Law. American Law allows me to denounce my American citizenship if I want to. But by American Law, if I was born in America, I am American, whether I choose so or not.

Why are you assuming Muslim law works the same way and gives you a choice of if you wish to have been born Muslim or not? Unless you're more familiar with those laws than anyone else here. Jewish law says if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish for life, and you cannot denounce it. You can choose to not follow any Jewish Law your entire life if you so please but that doesn't make you non-Jewish by birth. Muslim Law may be like Jewish Law or American Law. Unless you can provide information to door #3.

So BHO can be Muslim by birth, but may not practice anything Muslim, and perhaps even denounce it so long as it is allowed under the laws of Islam. Just had to clear that up even though it is probably irrelevant to this discussion.

That being said, that's probably not the reason he did it. He might have done it because he's a two-faced **** who has nothing to lose at this point. Does not need Congress to push his agendas across. Most of congress would disagree with what he just did (not least, soon to be minority leader Senator Schumer) . Had he done this 8 years ago, it would have been tougher to get them to come on his side for whatever they accomplished together. It probably would've stopped the Iran deal amongst other things. He doesn't need them anymore and HRC doesn't need them. This was a parting middle finger from him to Bibi and the rest of congress.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:19:41 AM
While most countries tend to deny actions their spy agencies, your talking about a hostile accusation by a friendly country that needs the US. it doesn't make any sense to take the risk of a false accusation that could be disproven.
It also makes no sense to attack BO so vehemently. They can pass more resolutions still. Once these resolutions get passed it will be impossible to reverse them.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:23:00 AM
It also makes no sense to attack BO so vehemently. They can pass more resolutions still. Once these resolutions get passed it will be impossible to reverse them.

I can't for the life of me understand why Bibi is taking the approach he's taking. It's not like Russia voted against it either and now they can align themselves there. Wait 26 days and then scream from the rooftops about how much of a jerk BHO was. But wait!!!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 10:23:44 AM
Wake up call. Obama talks to more Jews than to Muslims. He doesn't hate Israel. He isn't a Muslim. He's just a Liberal which means that he believes (and has probably confirmed by talking to Liberal Jews) that you can be for pre-1967 borders and still be a "friend" of Israel. He doesn't think he stabbed Israel in the back. Sure, he knows Netenyahu doesn't like what he did but he considers Netenyahu the Israeli equivalent of a Republican, in other words, he has little regard for his opinion.

In short, you are reading way too much into it. He doesn't think like you think and his actions don't mean what you think they mean.
And yet, liberals (BO included) have vetoed this resolution for decades. And this time the US pushed for it to be brought back so they could make a public show out of letting it pass.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 26, 2016, 10:23:50 AM
Remember this article? It was always the plan.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tension-between-u-s-israel-likely-to-continue-after-netanyahus-re-election-1426690031
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 10:24:46 AM
I can't for the life of me understand why Bibi is taking the approach he's taking. It's not like Russia voted against it either and now they can align themselves there. Wait 26 days and then scream from the rooftops about how much of a jerk BHO was. But wait!!!
Because it's old news by then and won't get coverage.
This lets pro-Israel Americans know how people like BO really feel about Israel...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:25:17 AM
And yet, liberals (BO included) have vetoed this resolution for decades. And this time the US pushed for it to be brought back so they could make a public show out of letting it pass.

Key words right there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 10:25:39 AM
Remember this article? It was always the plan.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tension-between-u-s-israel-likely-to-continue-after-netanyahus-re-election-1426690031
Chrome bypass:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjUsI7AlZLRAhVGPCYKHXkrC3gQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Ftension-between-u-s-israel-likely-to-continue-after-netanyahus-re-election-1426690031&usg=AFQjCNEp3cfVc0yKquY_bWMy0wHqxK1STQ&sig2=eZ-f3QiDFPfa9z9X7fAf8g

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Why are you assuming Muslim law works the same way and gives you a choice of if you wish to have been born Muslim or not? Unless you're more familiar with those laws than anyone else here. Jewish law says if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish for life, and you cannot denounce it. You can choose to not follow any Jewish Law your entire life if you so please but that doesn't make you non-Jewish by birth. Muslim Law may be like Jewish Law or American Law. Unless you can provide information to door #3.
When you say Jewish/Muslim law are you meaning religious law or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 10:26:15 AM
Remember this article? It was always the plan.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tension-between-u-s-israel-likely-to-continue-after-netanyahus-re-election-1426690031
I think it's been the plan since Bibi spoke to congress about the Iran deal.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:26:38 AM
Because it's old news by then and won't get coverage.
This lets pro-Israel Americans know how people like BO really feel about Israel...

But then he's giving BO more fuel to pass what he can get through in the next 25 days....
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:26:55 AM
When you say Jewish/Muslim law are you meaning religious law or am I missing something?
religious law
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 26, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
But then he's giving BO more fuel to pass what he can get through in the next 25 days....
He's a lame duck. He can't pass any kind of meaningful law at this point.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:29:56 AM
He's a lame duck. He can't pass any kind of meaningful law at this point.

Not in the US but UN resolutions.

Not that those mean anything anyway but he can take what he did Friday and multiply it. Everyone is up in arms about that so imagine what their reaction could be if they passed a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state. Or who knows.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:30:30 AM
religious law
Like I said you can't force your religion on anyone. Religion is a belief. That is something you choose.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:32:02 AM
Not that those mean anything anyway but he can take what he did Friday and multiply it. Everyone is up in arms about that so imagine what their reaction could be if they passed a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state. Or who knows.
At least someone gets it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 10:32:47 AM
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/311808-obama-pulls-a-bait-and-switch-on-anti-israel-security
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 10:36:10 AM
Not in the US but UN resolutions.

Not that those mean anything anyway but he can take what he did Friday and multiply it. Everyone is up in arms about that so imagine what their reaction could be if they passed a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state. Or who knows.
Agree. I have a feeling he is trying to ratchet up the pressure already from this hoping to prevent anything more.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:41:26 AM
Like I said you can't force your religion on anyone. Religion is a belief. That is something you choose.

Whether you like it or not, there are sets of laws that govern each religion. Whether the person chooses to believe or follow or worship or break those laws is irrelevant. They exist with or without his/her belief. Anyone can believe anything they want but Islamic Law dictates whether you are born Muslim. Whether he or you choose to believe he is or not later on in life, irrelevant. Let him choose not to be Muslim, for all it's worth, or you can choose for him, but under Islamic Law, he may be Muslim. So he can preach I am not a Muslim, and he scream it from a Church or Synagogue, but the reality is, we have to check Islamic Law and whether it dictates whether he was born Muslim and whether he could denounce it later. Let him convert to whatever he wants and not practice anything or everything. Irrelevant to whether he was born Muslim.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 10:47:45 AM
Whether you like it or not, there are sets of laws that govern each religion. Whether the person chooses to believe or follow or worship or break those laws is irrelevant.
You say this because you believe in your religion. This is what your religion teaches you. It is meaningless to anyone who does not follow your religion. We went off the deep end with this one so you can have the last say as I am done.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 10:58:27 AM
You say this because you believe in your religion. This is what your religion teaches you. It is meaningless to anyone who does not follow your religion. We went off the deep end with this one so you can have the last say as I am done.

Religion aside, why is it so ludicrous to believe that "Law governs the people, whether you like it or not?" Is that a religious belief? I wasn't aware that putting the Law above yourself is a religious idea. To each their own, though I hope for society's sake, you, along with everyone else, put (insert country here) Law on top, whether you choose to believe it or not.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 11:04:23 AM
What percentage of Israeli citizens approve of a two state solution?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 11:11:12 AM
What percentage of Israeli citizens approve of a two state solution?
I am pretty sure that polls place it at around 65% as long as it is negotiated and not imposed. That is Bibi's public position as well.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 11:14:33 AM
What percentage of Israeli citizens approve of a two state solution?

I'm not sure of the numbers, but such statistics would have to be taken with a grain of salt, at the very least. The results would be skewed heavily on exactly how the question was asked. For example, There would be many who would love for there to be peace between two states side by side, they just don't believe that is possible under the Palestinian leadership. So are they in favor of two states? Yes. Are they in favor of two states right now? No. Do they believe Two states is possible in the near future? Probably not.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 11:24:31 AM
What percentage of Israeli citizens approve of a two state solution?

Anecdotally, I have left wing relatives who were very much in favor of Oslo, land for peace, two states, the whole 9 yards.

They live on a kibbutz in the South, and after the disengagement found themselves just meters from the border. Hamas terrorists came out of a tunnel that was practically in their backyard. 

Suffice to say they no longer believe Israel can negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, not with their kids' playground under concrete, and the extremely real threat of being killed in their sleep.

But *ideally,* do they believe in a two state solution? Yes.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on December 26, 2016, 12:31:37 PM
Anecdotally, I have left wing relatives who were very much in favor of Oslo, land for peace, two states, the whole 9 yards.

They live on a kibbutz in the South, and after the disengagement found themselves just meters from the border. Hamas terrorists came out of a tunnel that was practically in their backyard. 

Suffice to say they no longer believe Israel can negotiate a deal with the Palestinians, not with their kids' playground under concrete, and the extremely real threat of being killed in their sleep.

But *ideally,* do they believe in a two state solution? Yes.
well put.
Left wingers who finally realize that their view of how the world should work doesn't actually work.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 12:38:48 PM
well put.
Left wingers who finally realize that their view of how the world should work doesn't actually work.
[A neoconservative is] a liberal who has been mugged by reality. A neoliberal is a liberal who got mugged by reality but has not pressed charges.
Irving Kristol
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:41:37 PM
Unless I am reading it wrong there is nothing in the resolution about sanctions or punitive damages.  So it is basically symbolic in nature. Best for Bibi to let this go for now and wait for the new guy.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 26, 2016, 12:53:54 PM
Unless I am reading it wrong there is nothing in the resolution about sanctions or punitive damages.  So it is basically symbolic in nature. Best for Bibi to let this go for now and wait for the new guy.

It changes the law which means that Israel soldiers, government officials and civilians who happen to live in the homes that they were driven out of in 49, can be prosecuted by the ICC.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Baruch on December 26, 2016, 12:55:01 PM
Unless I am reading it wrong there is nothing in the resolution about sanctions or punitive damages.  So it is basically symbolic in nature. Best for Bibi to let this go for now and wait for the new guy.
@JTZ, I'm shocked how an intelligent man like you, can make such a clueless comment
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 12:59:16 PM
It changes the law which means that Israel soldiers, government officials and civilians who happen to live in the homes that they were driven out of in 49, can be prosecuted by the ICC.
@JTZ, I'm shocked how an intelligent man like you, can make such a clueless comment
Maybe it is because I look at the UN as a joke.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 26, 2016, 01:01:27 PM
Maybe it is because I look at the UN as a joke.

Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 01:06:59 PM
Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt...
It case you haven't seen some of my comments over the years Israel is the one who decides their own faith in these situations. Not the US or the UN. To many believe because you take an opposing view on a single item that makes you anti something.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 26, 2016, 01:11:56 PM
Just Liberalism and a big ego.

Aren't those two the same thing? :D



If Obama's actions will hinder the piece (sic) process, then why is everyone here who's against that process so up in arms?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 26, 2016, 01:14:45 PM
Maybe it is because I look at the UN as a joke.
The one and only time there is influence is when it is against Israel. Then all the murderous dictators complain that a civilian may have been killed when they bombed a weapons cache.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Sammy82 on December 26, 2016, 02:26:58 PM
Reminds me of this one from a few years ago
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 02:34:35 PM
That was some painful singing.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 26, 2016, 02:50:39 PM

If Obama's actions will hinder the piece (sic) process, then why is everyone here who's against that process so up in arms?

No one is against peace (except Hamas). People are against the idea that Israel should give away land for peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 26, 2016, 03:47:07 PM
No one is against peace (except Hamas). People are against the idea that Israel should give away land for peace.

When did I say anyone is against peace?

I referred to the process, which historically has been land for "piece" (more precisely, land for nothing). And in case the reader wouldn't get it, I preferred to it as the piece process. And in case the reader thought I misspelled peace, I added (sic).

With that in mind, please go back, reread my post, and feel free to add what you'd like :D

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 04:08:53 PM
When did I say anyone is against peace?

I referred to the process, which historically has been land for "piece" (more precisely, land for nothing). And in case the reader wouldn't get it, I preferred to it as the piece process. And in case the reader thought I misspelled peace, I added (sic).

With that in mind, please go back, reread my post, and feel free to add what you'd like :D

I actually think that this might have a positive outcome if it makes negotiations a non-starter.

However, this resolution may have more far reaching effects than just negotiations. For instance, is it now the policy of the Democratic Party that the Jews have no rights to the Kosel? If you don't believe it far fetched to have IDF soldiers and Israeli politicians to be arrested for war crimes for simply guarding Jerusalem, this resolution helps redefine the parameters of those laws.

Bibi is clearly using this for local political gains, so it is very possible this is a huge over-reaction based on him blowing it out of proportion. Or it is a really bad indicator of US support for Israel, which has larger ramifications than land for peace negotiations.

Either way, the topic of this thread is not necessarily the resolution itself, but Obama's attitude toward Israel. I think it is more than fair to call it downright hostile with this resolution, and not just "liberal."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 26, 2016, 04:18:01 PM
There seems to be two different issues here. The peace process and US support for Israel. The US has always supported Israel and that will not change. Is there any other country that stands up for Israel as much as the US does?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 26, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
There seems to be two different issues here. The peace process and US support for Israel. The US has always supported Israel and that will not change. Is there any other country that stands up for Israel as much as the US does?
Well, they didn't here. And they probably wouldn't much going forward if it was up to Bo.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 26, 2016, 04:58:08 PM
There seems to be two different issues here. The peace process and US support for Israel. The US has always supported Israel and that will not change. Is there any other country that stands up for Israel as much as the US does?
It *did* change
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 26, 2016, 05:18:10 PM
When did I say anyone is against peace?

I referred to the process, which historically has been land for "piece" (more precisely, land for nothing). And in case the reader wouldn't get it, I preferred to it as the piece process. And in case the reader thought I misspelled peace, I added (sic).

With that in mind, please go back, reread my post, and feel free to add what you'd like :D

If it disrupts the "peace process" I believe that is a good thing.

The problem is that together with that it makes peace less likely because it emboldens the Arabs, by allow IMG them to think that if they continue with their terror, they will eventually get whatever they want.

Also, being that it is so clear that this will not further the "peace process" many assume that that is not Obama's objective.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 26, 2016, 05:44:24 PM
It also makes no sense to attack BO so vehemently. They can pass more resolutions still. Once these resolutions get passed it will be impossible to reverse them.
Unless



Bibi believes that coming out so strong against Obama will create pressure on Obama not to continue down this path, from both sides of the isle. ( If he's correct is something else..)

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 26, 2016, 05:52:56 PM
Now that annexation is on the table I think the right wingers (particularly ideologically zionist) are going to start realizing it's much worse.

Did Israel ever suggest a viable long term arrangement?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 26, 2016, 06:05:21 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/774212345463791616/video/1

I'd honestly like to here a response to this from a (left wing) two state solution supporter.

(The reason I'm asking for a left wing perspective is because I think the right wing supporter does not believe the Palestinians deserve a state, they just think this is the only way to stop them from killing Jews.)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 12:25:44 AM
This is why Bibi should take a break from his attacks on BO.

Israel’s government is now turning its attention to a conference planned for Jan. 15 in Paris, concerned the international community could seek to impose a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. According to a senior Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the issue is sensitive, the government fears foreign ministers in Paris will draft parameters Israel considers unfavorable, and will seek to impose them through the Security Council before Obama leaves office five days later.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 12:35:46 AM
This is why Bibi should take a break from his attacks on BO.

Israel’s government is now turning its attention to a conference planned for Jan. 15 in Paris, concerned the international community could seek to impose a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. According to a senior Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the issue is sensitive, the government fears foreign ministers in Paris will draft parameters Israel considers unfavorable, and will seek to impose them through the Security Council before Obama leaves office five days later.
Maybe he knew that was the plan all along? Kerry already said publicly they would use the security council. It's not like this resolution was a surprise attack.

I think it's fair to say Bibi is not the bumbling politician you make him out to be, even if you disagree with his opinions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 12:43:53 AM
Maybe he knew that was the plan all along? Kerry already said publicly they would use the security council. It's not like this resolution was a surprise attack.

I think it's fair to say Bibi is not the bumbling politician you make him out to be, even if you disagree with his opinions.
They should have know back with the 2011 veto vote that this resolution was a strong possibility. How times were they warned to stop the settlements? I am not playing sides here just agreeing that this was no big surprise they are making it out to be.

I have no idea what type of politician Bibi. What I do know it is a big mistake to keep attacking BO when he can do so much more. Tone it down and wait for the new guy.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 12:47:42 AM
They should have know back with the 2011 veto vote that this resolution was a strong possibility. How times were they warned to stop the settlements? I am not playing sides here just agreeing that this was no big surprise they are making it out to be.

I have no idea what type of politician Bibi. What I do know it is a big mistake to keep attacking BO when he can do so much more. Tone it down and wait for the new guy.
Or maybe he knows that BO is gonna do whatever he is going to do, and won't go down without a fight?

I don't know that he's right, I'm just saying it's not as simple as you make it
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 12:51:35 AM
Or maybe he knows that BO is gonna do whatever he is going to do, and won't go down without a fight?

I don't know that he's right, I'm just saying it's not as simple as you make it
Actually it is that simple from this side of the fence. There is zero influence or pressure he can put on BO. Now maybe there is some political reasons for him in Israel that he is doing it for. That I really can't comment on and all of you would know better.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 12:59:10 AM
Actually it is that simple from this side of the fence. There is zero influence or pressure he can put on BO. Now maybe there is some political reasons for him in Israel that he is doing it for. That I really can't comment on and all of you would know better.
If quiet diplomacy isn't gonna work, perhaps kicking and screaming will?

Even someone like you, who is surrounded by people so passionate about this subject, have you fully grasped that Obama has basically come out and said Israel has no right to the Western Wall?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 01:08:32 AM
Even someone like you, who is surrounded by people so passionate about this subject, have you fully grasped that Obama has basically come out and said Israel has no right to the Western Wall?
It is sad to say but basically no one even thinks about this other than those most effected. I have not heard a single comment about this other than here on DDF. I can ask 100 people I see every day where the Western Wall is and I would guess at tops two would know.

I would disagree that BO believes Israel has no right to the Western Wall.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 01:13:52 AM
It is sad to say but basically no one even thinks about this other than those most effected. I have not heard a single comment about this other than here on DDF. I can ask 100 people I see every day where the Western Wall is and I would guess at tops two would know.

I would disagree that BO believes Israel has no right to the Western Wall.
That is in this resolution. East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory. Palestinian territories are, and would be as a recognized state, juden rein. Even Carter's anti settlement resolution came with, "we need to figure out Jerusalem." Obama's? Nothing.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 01:20:23 AM
That is in this resolution. East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory. Palestinian territories are, and would be as a recognized state, juden rein. Even Carter's anti settlement resolution came with, "we need to figure out Jerusalem." Obama's? Nothing.
Yes that is in the resolution. With most resolutions/laws you have to take the good with the bad. This is why I disagree with those that claim the US wrote this resolution. They would never put that in there.

Some might not agree with this but BO is a man of faith.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 01:26:18 AM
Yes that is in the resolution. With most resolutions/laws you have to take the good with the bad. This is why I disagree with those that claim the US wrote this resolution. They would never put that in there.

Some might not agree with this but BO is a man of faith.
You know I agree with you on the Obama-muslim idiocy/racism, and I've defended him plenty in the past. But I'm sorry, on this he's gone off the deepend.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe they created the resolution. The highest level Israeli politicians are saying it. Reports have Kerry telling Ukraine to vote for it. Kerry threatened this recently.

Whatever faith he has, it's not in a realistic peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 01:32:02 AM
http://www.jewishjournal.com/rosnersdomain/item/no_drama_obama_you_gotta_be_kidding
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 01:36:37 AM
Its possible they were behind it but IMHO they are not.

Has anyone read the full speech of Samantha Power to the UN. Here is just a small part where she acknowledges Israel has always been singled out unfairly by the UN.

But in reality this vote for us was not straightforward, because of where it is taking place – at the United Nations. For the simple truth is that for as long as Israel has been a member of this institution, Israel has been treated differently from other nations at the United Nations. And not only in decades past – such as in the infamous resolution that the General Assembly adopted in 1975, with the support of the majority of Member States, officially determining that, “Zionism is a form of racism” – but also in 2016, this year. One need only look at the 18 resolutions against Israel adopted during the UN General Assembly in September; or the 12 Israel-specific resolutions adopted this year in the Human Rights Council – more than those focused on Syria, North Korea, Iran, and South Sudan put together – to see that in 2016 Israel continues to be treated differently from other Member States.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.761017
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 06:57:16 AM
Another part of the speech. I guess this is meaningless?

Our commitment to that security has never wavered, and it never will. Even with a financial crisis and budget deficits, we’ve repeatedly increased funding to support Israel’s military. And in September, the Obama administration signed a Memorandum of Understanding to provide $38 billion in security assistance to Israel over the next 10 years – the largest single pledge of military assistance in U.S. history to any country. And as the Israeli Prime Minister himself has noted, our military and intelligence cooperation is unprecedented. We believe, though, that continued settlement building seriously undermines Israel’s security.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 07:07:49 AM
The hits just keep on coming. If this isn't someone who supports Israel then there never will be anyone.

The United States has been sending the message that the settlements must stop – privately and publicly – for nearly five decades, through the administrations of Presidents Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and now Barack Obama. Indeed, since 1967, the only president who had not had at least one Israeli-Palestinian-related Security Council resolution pass during his tenure is Barack Obama. So our vote today is fully in line with the bipartisan history of how American Presidents have approached both the issue – and the role of this body.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 07:27:18 AM
1. The military aid money has to be spent in the USA. It's kinda like a stimulus package for us military supplies. It's a win win for Israel and America, but in no way proves Obama to be overtly pro Israel.

2. The head of the UN himself said Israel is disproportionately condemned. You have to be a blind idiotic anti semite not to see that, which must member states are.

3. As explained above, this resolution goes far beyond any previous US policy regarding settlements. It's not just east Jerusalem, it's other settlements which are not a dozen families living in ramshackle lodging. They are huge communities which have never been part of land for peace negotiations.

This resolution is one without nuance. It gives Israel no starting point for negotiations, this negating the possibility of a land for peace deal.

For me, that's wonderful. But for Obama, who supposedly wants that, it shows a level of idiotic foreign policy, and indicates his personal vendetta trumps sound judgement. Something he'd say fits more with The Donald.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 07:37:48 AM
For me, that's wonderful. But for Obama, who supposedly wants that, it shows a level of idiotic foreign policy, and indicates his personal vendetta trumps sound judgement. Something he'd say fits more with The Donald.
Is it possible you are to close to the situation to be objective?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 07:40:55 AM
Is it possible you are to close to the situation to be objective?
Of course. But I have read many a shocked take from leftist Obama supporters over the last few days that indicate I'm closer to the truth than not.

Note, you have not refuted any single claim by arguing subjectivity.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 07:48:52 AM
Note, you have not refuted any single claim by arguing subjectivity.
I say he supports Israel with the largest aid package ever. You dismiss it as a stimulus. I say he points out how unjustly Israel has been treated and you say any idiot knows that. Over 90% of the speech is in favor of Israel.

Bibi was warned numerous times to halt the settlements. There is no sane person that believes building more settlements gives peace a better chance.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 27, 2016, 08:42:29 AM
What's a settlement? What does it mean? Serious question. Please define.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 27, 2016, 09:01:24 AM
What's a settlement? What does it mean? Serious question. Please define.
67 borders
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 27, 2016, 09:02:36 AM
67 borders

Yeah, correct. I kind of wasn't asking you though.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 27, 2016, 09:07:59 AM


There is no sane person that believes building more settlements gives peace a better chance.
Although most sane people agree that stopping the "settlements" will not bring peace any closer.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 09:17:42 AM
There is no sane person that believes building more settlements gives peace a better chance.

The argument can be made that it puts pressure on the Palestinians to come to the table. The longer they wait the more Jews live in the area and therefore makes it less likely that Israel gives away that land.

Right now, (especially after their success in the UNSC), they have no incentive to negotiate, because they think they can get whatever they want unilaterally.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:25:33 AM
Now maybe there is some political reasons for him in Israel that he is doing it for. That I really can't comment on and all of you would know better.
And the most racist comment in this thread goes to JTZ.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 27, 2016, 09:27:43 AM
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/12/26/charles-krauthammer-israel-resolution-united-nations-was-us-operation-all-way
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:29:32 AM
The argument can be made that it puts pressure on the Palestinians to come to the table. The longer they wait the more Jews live in the area and therefore makes it less likely that Israel gives away that land.
I agree that is the thinking but we have seen it doesn't work. Just as the terrorist acts against Israel hasn't worked.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 27, 2016, 09:31:14 AM
What is a "settlement"?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:31:40 AM
And the most racist comment in this thread goes to JTZ.
Most of you traveled to Israel several times. Some of you live there. A lot of you have family there. Wouldn't you all understand the politics over there way better than me? How is this racist?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:35:57 AM
Most of you traveled to Israel several times. Some of you live there. A lot of you have family there. Wouldn't you all understand the politics over there way better than me? How is this racist?
I can't even.

Let me ask you. When is the last time you were speaking to a group of black people and told them "all of you would know more about African politics"...

If you would of said some of you, or the guys who live there have family there may know more, it would be one thing but to say all of you.. Is the blatant and clear racism. I for one don't follow Israeli politics for the most part and have no idea what the mood is there. You see I am an individual and I don't think it is very nice or fair to sum me up in a group of people just based on my religion.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:39:20 AM
Let me ask you. When is the last time you were speaking to a group of black people and told them "all of you would know more about African politics"...
If it was about politics in Africa and I believed most of the forum members had ties there I would have no problem making the same comment.

If I said I can't comment on the Torah and all of you would know better would that be offensive to you?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:41:21 AM
If it was about politics in Africa and I believed most of the forum members had ties there I would have no problem making the same comment.

If I said I can't comment on the Torah and all of you would know better would that be offensive to you?
Please read my edit. I added some points. You don't have to defenc this one. It's clearly racist. You like to accuse a lot of people of a lot of things, but can't seem to admit when you are guilty yourself.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:43:40 AM
If you would of said some of you, or the guys who live there have family there may know more, it would be one thing but to say all of you.. Is the blatant and clear racism. I for one don't follow Israeli politics for the most part and have no idea what the mood is there. You see I am an individual and I don't think it is very nice or fair to sum me up in a group of people just based on my religion.
You think it is fair to jump all over me without even asking me what I meant or to clarify? Do you really believe when I said "all" it meant every single member on this board?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 27, 2016, 09:44:41 AM
What is a "settlement"?
1 brick, wood, grain, and sheep.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:45:17 AM
Please read my edit. I added some points. You don't have to defenc this one. It's clearly racist. You like to accuse a lot of people of a lot of things, but can't seem to admit when you are guilty yourself.
You are 100% wrong on this one.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:49:09 AM
It's clearly racist.
If you want to falsely accuse me of something learn the difference between racist and stereotype.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:52:42 AM
If you want to falsely accuse me of something learn the difference between racist and stereotype.
Ok go ahead and learn, or do we associate the 2 nowadays just as you did...
Your racist remarks are getting old.
If 2011 when he veto basically the same resolution do you know why?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:54:14 AM
You think it is fair to jump all over me without even asking me what I meant or to clarify? Do you really believe when I said "all" it meant every single member on this board?
Feel free to clarify. I'm just pointing out that at the surface the most racist remark of this thread was you saying all Jews know about Israeli politics. Plenty of Jews are as typical American as it can get...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:55:50 AM
Ok go ahead and learn, or do we associate the 2 nowadays just as you did...
You are going to need to translate this one for me?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:57:05 AM
You are going to need to translate this one for me?
Are you going to tell me they were being racist against Muslims or for Jews?

FYI: Racism is discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Today, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition. But I imagine you want only the disctionary definition of racism as making one race superior or inferior?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 09:57:52 AM
Feel free to clarify. I'm just pointing out that at the surface the most racist remark of this thread was you saying all Jews know about Israeli politics. Plenty of Jews are as typical American as it can get...
Did you miss this post?
Most of you traveled to Israel several times. Some of you live there. A lot of you have family there. Wouldn't you all understand the politics over there way better than me? How is this racist?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 09:59:19 AM
Did you miss this post?
Most, some, all. Those are 3 things you made no distinction about and want me to have a logical discussion here?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:00:44 AM
1 brick, wood, grain, and sheep.

Very good.

Now what is a city? What is a road?  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:02:58 AM
Most, some, all. Those are 3 things you made no distinction about and want me to have a logical discussion here?
Lets see if this helps. "All" is referring to those that traveled there, live there or have family there.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 27, 2016, 10:06:42 AM
Very good.

Now what is a city? What is a road?  ;)

Exactly. I am positive that most Americans hear the word "settlement" and picture a trailer park or a tent city.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:07:52 AM
Are you going to tell me they were being racist against Muslims or for Jews?
You are probably going to think I am messing with you but I am not. I am lost, what you are talking about.

A certain member refers to our president as "Hussein". He has also made other comments about blacks. That is why I said his racist remarks were getting old.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 10:08:32 AM
I say he supports Israel with the largest aid package ever. You dismiss it as a stimulus.

Was I wrong? There is a ton of humanitarian aid given to the Palestinians, and many other nations. The Israeli package is tied to military spending within the US, the other packages are not. It is not something which is argued about. Everyone who looked at the deal, knows exactly what it is - a win win for America and Israel.

I say he points out how unjustly Israel has been treated and you say any idiot knows that.

Again, was I wrong? Did you see Ban Ki Moon's statement about Israel's treatment? Any look at the sheer number of resolutions against Israel, compared to any single issue in the world, which includes multiple genocides of tens of thousands of people at a time, and you cannot come to any other conclusion.
 
Over 90% of the speech is in favor of Israel.

"And after beating his wife, he made a speech that was 90% filled with her praise." 

Bibi was warned numerous times to halt the settlements. There is no sane person that believes building more settlements gives peace a better chance.

Firstly, plenty of sane people can make a logical and rational argument (without even my belief that the land of Israel is given by G-d to the Jewish people) that land concessions will merely lead to the destruction of Israel, and can never lead to a safe and secure two state solution.

However, even within the framework of land for peace, while you are correct that settlements would not appear to give that peace a chance, this very resolution goes against that land-for-peace goal. Jerusalem and other select settlements are non-negotiable. Obama knows that. Carter knew that. Everyone knows that. They are never included in possible land for peace deals. By including them in this resolution, and not even negating those aspects in Samantha Power's aforementioned speech, Obama gives us two choices:

1) This resolution is over a personal vendetta with Bibi, and Obama is childishly and arrogantly playing with global politics over a personal feud, which is the type of behavior you'd expect from Donald Trump.

2) Obama has decided to shift US policy on Israel radically, siding in part with BDS, and stating that ISrael has no right to the Western Wall and other major portions of its country.

The third option is that Obama is a fool. I do not believe that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 10:12:23 AM
Lets see if this helps. "All" is referring to those that traveled there, live there or have family there.


Ok. I hope you see how your original post can be taken as racism though.

In other news this thread is actually a pretty good read. Not nearly as hard to read as the election thread.

I think the main problem is when Freddie said this isn't anti-semite it's typical democratic liberal agenda, that is where the main problem is. Israel has been and I hope remains a non-partisan issue. When D's and R's start to use UN resolutions and the like to further their political agenda it becomes worrisome. If Israels fate is dependent on which party is in power they are in for some big trouble.

ETA:
You are probably going to think I am messing with you but I am not. I am lost, what you are talking about.

A certain member refers to our president as "Hussein". He has also made other comments about blacks. That is why I said his racist remarks were getting old.
I don't know what his remarks about blacks are, but what's racist about using a middle name? If that's your best proof of racism you are grabbing for straws.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 10:14:59 AM
I agree that is the thinking but we have seen it doesn't work. Just as the terrorist acts against Israel hasn't worked.

We have also seen that surrendering land to the Palestinians does not work.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:17:23 AM
ETA: I don't know what his remarks about blacks are, but what's racist about using a middle name? If that's your best proof of racism you are grabbing for straws.
...and you need to take your meds because something isn't right with you today.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:20:53 AM
Most of you traveled to Israel several times. Some of you live there. A lot of you have family there. Wouldn't you all understand the politics over there way better than me? How is this racist?

I've traveled to France more times than I've traveled to Israel. My family even lived there for 8 months when they were escaping persecution in Egypt years ago. Yet my family knows as much about French politics as it does Zimbabwe politics. 

Lumping "most everyone" on this thread together based on the amount of times we've traveled there? Or have relatives there?

What you said is fine to say to the people that live there, or to the people that follow Israeli politics on a day to day. But assuming "we all" or "most" or " a lot" follow Israeli politics because.....we've traveled there, or have family there?? You have to admit you're stretching it.

Lets see if this helps. "All" is referring to those that traveled there, live there or have family there.

Still a stretch to assume that bec I travel there means I know who's in charge and what they stand for. I get out of the airport, take a taxi to where I need to go, enjoy the atmosphere and whatever else there is to enjoy being there, and I come back. I don't go there to read newspapers.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 10:24:41 AM
ETA: I don't know what his remarks about blacks are, but what's racist about using a middle name? If that's your best proof of racism you are grabbing for straws.

You were right about his comment being racist. But JTZ is correct about the racism from that (and other) member(s). The middle name is far from the only thinly veiled racist remark.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:26:09 AM
Still a stretch to assume that bec I travel there means I know who's in charge and what they stand for. I get out of the airport, take a taxi to where I need to go, enjoy the atmosphere and whatever else there is to enjoy being there, and I come back. I don't go there to read newspapers.
Did you take my comment as racist or I made assumptions that were not accurate?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 10:27:33 AM
You were right about his comment being racist. But JTZ is correct about the racism from that (and other) member(s). The middle name is far from the only thinly veiled racist remark.
I am going by his apparent logic of Racism only going by the dictionary definition of racism. Also I can only comment on that one post, I don't know the others he's referring to.

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 10:28:54 AM
Did you take my comment as racist or I made assumptions that were not accurate?
I assumed all blacks had cousins in or travel to Africa, it turns out I was wrong. I'm not racist I made a bad assumption. Is that something you use often?

Or I assumed all Jews were rich, turns out I was wrong. I'm not racist I made a bad assumption.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:33:54 AM
Did you take my comment as racist or I made assumptions that were not accurate?

The assumption that bec someone travels there or has family there, knows politics there. It was a masked remark. Unmasked, it's racist. Masked - just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:41:07 AM
The assumption that bec someone travels there or has family there, knows politics there. It was a masked remark. Unmasked, it's racist. Masked - just plain wrong.
Do you know how many times on this forum I have been told I don't understand because I don't live there? You know how many times I have been told if I had family there I would look at it differently. So me assuming you would have better knowledge of what is going on there is somehow masked? Do you even hear what you are saying?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:48:51 AM
Do you know how many times on this forum I have been told I don't understand because I don't live there? You know how many times I have been told if I had family there I would look at it differently. So me assuming you would have better knowledge of what is going on there is somehow masked? Do you even hear what you are saying?

Loud and clear. So you've been told 20 times. 30 times. 50 times! All by different people. And now that allows you to lump everyone here into one of two categories. Either we have family there, or we live there. I would say a very fair number of everyone on this forum have neither. We've merely visited. But of course, I wake up, go get a cup of coffee and sit and read the israeli newspapers while I'm there.

This has really gone off the deep end. I really hope you can see that you lumped everyone into one bucket of "knowing israeli politics" - anyone who has basically done anything more than look at Israel on a map might fall into your bucket. But then again, it only includes only those that live there and have family there as you just said. Or, maybe you want to change your mind (again) about what you meant by "you all".

If you don't see that, then sleep on it and wake up tomorrow and, after reading the israeli newspapers with a cup of coffee, read this thread again. You might catch something.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 10:52:05 AM
I'm going to side with JTZ on this one. When I read his comment I understood it to mean that on average, someone who is Jewish is more likely to know about Israeli politics than him.
But I'm not very sympathetic to cries of "racism" in general. It could be that by the standard applied to other comments here, this one was also "racist".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:53:07 AM
Not racist at all. He's referring to the members that are engaged on this forum.

Lets see if this helps. "All" is referring to those that traveled there, live there or have family there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 10:55:29 AM
Loud and clear. So you've been told 20 times. 30 times. 50 times! All by different people. And now that allows you to lump everyone here into one of two categories. Either we have family there, or we live there. I would say a very fair number of everyone on this forum have neither. We've merely visited. But of course, I wake up, go get a cup of coffee and sit and read the israeli newspapers while I'm there.

This has really gone off the deep end. I really hope you can see that you lumped everyone into one bucket of "knowing israeli politics" - anyone who has basically done anything more than look at Israel on a map might fall into your bucket. But then again, it only includes only those that live there and have family there as you just said. Or, maybe you want to change your mind (again) about what you meant by "you all".

If you don't see that, then sleep on it and wake up tomorrow and, after reading the israeli newspapers with a cup of coffee, read this thread again. You might catch something.
Yes you are correct I lumped most here knowing more about Israel's politics the me. I believe those that travel to any place that I haven't would know more about than me. If they have family there and I don't would understand it better than me. That makes it a racist comment? Where was the malice in my comment? Where was I degrading anyone?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 10:56:24 AM


Who are therefore more likely to have more knowledge of the Israeli politics than someone who does not
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 27, 2016, 10:56:44 AM
I believe those that travel to any place that I haven't would know more about than me.
Do you know more about Polish politics than me ;D
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 10:58:28 AM
Do you know more about Polish politics than me ;D
Oh, he's definitely Polish. That's for sure.  :-X ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 10:58:34 AM
Yes you are correct I lumped most here knowing more about Israel's politics the me. I believe those that travel to any place that I haven't would know more about than me. If they have family there and I don't would understand it better than me. That makes it a racist comment? Where was the malice in my comment? Where was I degrading anyone?

Not racist - don't mean to throw jj under the bus but I disagree on the racist part. I would say stereotype.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:00:24 AM
Do you know more about Polish politics than me ;D
I have a better understanding of the holocaust by going there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:01:34 AM
I would say stereotype.
It wasn't meant that way but I understand why you would see it that way.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 11:02:15 AM
It wasn't meant that way but I understand why you would see it that way.

I'll give a handshake to that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:04:40 AM
You guys are being ridiculous. Just look at how a very large portion of people right here in this thread are very emotionally involved with the Israeli politics and the UN resolution.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:05:32 AM
I'll give a handshake to that.
So now we can get back to why BO is the biggest supporter Israel has.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 27, 2016, 11:09:29 AM
So now we can get back to why BO is the biggest supporter Israel has.  :)

At the moment, probably true. But that's not saying much with the current state of affairs.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:12:14 AM
If a land for peace deal was made what happens to the people living in the settlements now?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:12:46 AM
So now we can get back to why BO is the biggest supporter Israel has.  :)
Compared to whom?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:14:38 AM
Compared to whom?
Any other leader in the world.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:16:19 AM
Any other leader in the world.
The soft bigotry of low expectations.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 11:17:16 AM
If a land for peace deal was made what happens to the people living in the settlements now?
Search gush katif
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:19:06 AM
Search gush katif
I guess you do know about this stuff more than me.  :P
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 11:19:34 AM
Search gush katif
A city that exported $200,000,000/year had families forcefully taken form their homes, and now is a barren wasteland afaik, and we are that much closer to peace... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 27, 2016, 11:20:21 AM
I guess you do know about this stuff more than me.  :P
History and politics is very different. Anyway you know full well I didn't think you are racist. I saw an opportunity and seized it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 11:21:03 AM
If a land for peace deal was made what happens to the people living in the settlements now?

Ding ding ding we have a winner!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:24:35 AM

So there never will be a land for peace deal?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 27, 2016, 11:25:58 AM
So there never will be a land for peace deal?
Not as long as Arabs believe that Israel has no right to exist and that terrorism is a valid means to that end.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 27, 2016, 11:27:31 AM
A city that exported $200,000,000/year had families forcefully taken form their homes, and now is a barren wasteland afaik, and we are that much closer to peace... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif
And don't forget, that it was all done with Israel receiving a letter of understanding from Bush that Israel will be able to remain  in all large settlement blocks, hence they aren't illegal.
BHO refuses to even acknowledge the letter..
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 11:29:07 AM
Not as long as Arabs believe that Israel has no right to exist and that terrorism is a valid means to that end.
That's what this thread should be about instead of trashing BO. Even if I wanted to play devils advocate there is no valid response.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0sejL4VIAAt-_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:40:16 AM
That's what this thread should be about instead of trashing BO. Even if I wanted to play devils advocate there is no valid response.
Any UN resolution needs to be viewed in the context that they are always very busy about the "settlements" while paying lip service at best to these concerns.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 11:42:01 AM
So there never will be a land for peace deal?

Land concessions? In all likelihood, there will be, sadly. Land for peace? No. It has been tried, and it has not led to peace.

Palestinians have never wanted that to begin with. Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel in its entirety. This is not some hard line right wing view, this is taught by the "moderate" Palestinian Authority to their kids, it is in the charter of "democratically" elected Hamas, and I can go on and on. Any negotiations and agreements were followed up by speeches in Arabic to Palestinians - often on the very same day - saying this was just a step to eradicating Israel.

Moderate leaders have still not even taken the step to affirm Israel's right to exist. By definition, you need two sides to make peace.

I could go on and on.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 11:47:57 AM
So there never will be a land for peace deal?
One of the biggest hinderances to any land for peace deal is a resolution like this one. When the palestinian street is made to believe that pre-67 borders are what the world including the US is supporting then why would they agree to less than that. It needs to be understood that the Palestinian politicians are going to take the resolution and tout it regardless of any speech by Samantha Powers who no Palestinian has even heard of. This is more harmful to peace than any settlement.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 11:54:25 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obamas-fitting-finish-1482795381
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 11:54:51 AM
That's what this thread should be about instead of trashing BO. Even if I wanted to play devils advocate there is no valid response.

Can you agree that expecting Israel to offer consessions (stopping building) for the "right" to negotiate with such a partner is anti-Israel?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 27, 2016, 11:59:23 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obamas-fitting-finish-1482795381
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwizoOyW7JTRAhVH1CYKHRS1A6sQqOcBCBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fobamas-fitting-finish-1482795381&usg=AFQjCNFiEUb2FN5aDD3o_Atw7TPhjsif_w&sig2=j5CH95bjDxwWAu37pqWdcQ
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 12:15:50 PM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obamas-fitting-finish-1482795381 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/obamas-fitting-finish-1482795381)
Quote
Now the administration is likely being deceptive about last week’s U.N. vote, claiming it did not promote, craft or orchestrate a resolution that treats the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City as a settlement in illegally occupied territory. Yet in November, John Kerry had a long talk on the subject with the foreign minister of New Zealand, one of the resolution’s sponsors.
“One of the closed-door discussions between United States Secretary of State John Kerry and the New Zealand government today was a potential resolution by the United Nations Security Council on a two-state solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict,” the New Zealand Herald reported last month (http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11747382). “‘It is a conversation we are engaged in deeply and we’ve spent some time talking to Secretary Kerry about where the U.S. might go on this,’” the paper added, quoting Foreign Minister Murray McCully.
The Israelis claim to have more evidence along these lines. If so, it means the administration no longer bothers to lie convincingly.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 12:21:23 PM
Can you agree that expecting Israel to offer consessions (stopping building) for the "right" to negotiate with such a partner is anti-Israel?
No. What I will say if I was born and raised in Israel there is not a chance in h*ll I would agree to a two state solution. 
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: MeirS on December 27, 2016, 12:34:33 PM
2 state solution has 2 issues. The Arab residents of Israel won't agree to it and it's a danger to the Israeli residents of Israel.
1 state for 2 people won't work because you either be apartheid and not allow the Arab residents full voting rights or the Arabs will end up electing more and more of the Knesset.

הפיתרון היחיד משיח בן דוד!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 12:50:27 PM
No. What I will say if I was born and raised in Israel there is not a chance in h*ll I would agree to a two state solution.

How do you define anti-Israel?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 27, 2016, 01:03:15 PM
And now we have a 3 state solution...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwizoOyW7JTRAhVH1CYKHRS1A6sQqOcBCB8wAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fobamas-parting-betrayal-of-israel-1482795616&usg=AFQjCNFH7ERhXdn0_ukAwhyTrYpWnhaEVw&sig2=ZMUOHgcaKRpSgqH2FepqbA
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 03:07:55 PM
How do you define anti-Israel?
Think I will skip this as we don't need more racist comments from me.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 27, 2016, 04:30:47 PM
Think I will skip this as we don't need more racist comments from me.  ;)

I think without defining what anti-Israel means, this conversation is not going to go anywhere (not that after we define it, it will, but...)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 27, 2016, 05:04:14 PM
I think without defining what anti-Israel means, this conversation is not going to go anywhere (not that after we define it, it will, but...)
Isn't it all subjective?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 27, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.761741?v=8E9A556A0D3A4B42C3830D92C69C4C4E
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: good sam on December 27, 2016, 06:18:57 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0sejL4VIAAt-_3.jpg)
How many analogies can they fit into one political cartoon?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 27, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
How many analogies can they fit into one political cartoon?
infinite
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 27, 2016, 10:46:40 PM
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/12/26/charles-krauthammer-israel-resolution-united-nations-was-us-operation-all-way
The more I listen to the video, the more I feel that it might actually be better (barring any possible sanctions) that they not only made the settlements illegal, but also included everything from the Jewish Quarter to the Kosel. This way, Trump with Congress can just go ballistic on the U.N. and make radical changes there, by pointing out how crazy they are for saying the Jews holiest site is OCCUPIED territory.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 27, 2016, 11:21:06 PM
What can Trump do at this point?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 27, 2016, 11:25:36 PM
And now we have a 3 state solution...

Reminds me of the trichitza :D

On a serious note, I doubt Egypt and Jordan want those territories back. The status quo works for them; the various "Palestinian" factions continue their terrorist war of attrition against Israel, and Egypt and Jordan pretend they don't approve of it and live peacefully alongside Israel.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 28, 2016, 01:03:42 AM
Reminds me of the trichitza :D

On a serious note, I doubt Egypt and Jordan want those territories back. The status quo works for them; the various "Palestinian" factions continue their terrorist war of attrition against Israel, and Egypt and Jordan pretend they don't approve of it and live peacefully alongside Israel.

Un dort ligt der hunt bagroben.

The Palestine leadership also does not want peace, because as long as Israel is the enemy, the people won't notice where the billions in foreign aid is going...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: shulem92 on December 28, 2016, 01:11:07 AM


Un dort ligt der hunt bagroben.

Love that line. Its my grandmothers all time favorite
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yuneeq on December 28, 2016, 01:15:00 AM
I think Israel is that geeky kid with no friends, he finally finds a girl that hangs out with him.
But of course, he's such a nerd that he enters the perpetual friend zone. He's able to benefit from her company and she sticks up for him but he never gets what he really wants.

Then one day she finally abandons him, which seems really terrible for such an unliked loser. But if your in the friendzone this might turn out to be the greatest event of your life. Because what happens next, once she lets go of him, there's someone waiting in the midst that's willing to forge a relationship that goes further than ever before.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 01:21:31 AM
The more I listen to the video, the more I feel that it might actually be better (barring any possible sanctions) that they not only made the settlements illegal, but also included everything from the Jewish Quarter to the Kosel. This way, Trump with Congress can just go ballistic on the U.N. and make radical changes there, by pointing out how crazy they are for saying the Jews holiest site is OCCUPIED territory.
Like I was hoping ( dreaming ) of Trump getting Putin to veto it ( or Jan 15 )
What can Trump do at this point?
Tweet?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 28, 2016, 01:55:58 AM
Like I was hoping ( dreaming ) of Trump getting Putin to veto it ( or Jan 15 ) Tweet?
That is not happening. But even without changing the security council resolution, Trump can pretty much make up for it, by doing things in Israel's favor and bypassing the UN.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 28, 2016, 02:28:34 AM
You are probably going to think I am messing with you but I am not. I am lost, what you are talking about.

A certain member refers to our president as "Hussein". He has also made other comments about blacks. That is why I said his racist remarks were getting old.
I honestly don't know what you're referring to when you say I made comments on Blacks. I would love for you to bring one comment.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 02:42:32 AM
That is not happening. But even without changing the security council resolution, Trump can pretty much make up for it, by doing things in Israel's favor and bypassing the UN.
Of course not..It's wishful thinking (actually dreaming).

True but the Hague etc. Can still cause quite a headache.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 07:35:05 AM
The Palestine leadership also does not want peace, because as long as Israel is the enemy, the people won't notice where the billions in foreign aid is going...

I think you mean "leadership".

PA might be in it for the money; but Hamas, Hezbollah, now-defunct PLO etc. went into the the game with the intent of eradicating Israel. The money was just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 08:25:37 AM
I think you mean "leadership".

PA might be in it for the money; but Hamas, Hezbollah, now-defunct PLO etc. went into the the game with the intent of eradicating Israel. The money was just icing on the cake.
If it was money they wanted, they would start selling on Amazon.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 08:32:08 AM
I think Israel is that geeky kid with no friends, he finally finds a girl that hangs out with him.
But of course, he's such a nerd that he enters the perpetual friend zone. He's able to benefit from her company and she sticks up for him but he never gets what he really wants.

Then one day she finally abandons him, which seems really terrible for such an unliked loser. But if your in the friendzone this might turn out to be the greatest event of your life. Because what happens next, once she lets go of him, there's someone waiting in the midst that's willing to forge a relationship that goes further than ever before.
So you do think Trump will screw Israel?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 08:42:33 AM
I think Israel is that geeky kid with no friends, he finally finds a girl that hangs out with him.
But of course, he's such a nerd that he enters the perpetual friend zone. He's able to benefit from her company and she sticks up for him but he never gets what he really wants.

Then one day she finally abandons him, which seems really terrible for such an unliked loser. But if your in the friendzone this might turn out to be the greatest event of your life. Because what happens next, once she lets go of him, there's someone waiting in the midst that's willing to forge a relationship that goes further than ever before.
Or what happens next is he becomes lonely and resorts to harassing people on Twitter
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 08:43:30 AM
I honestly don't know what you're referring to when you say I made comments on Blacks. I would love for you to bring one comment.
It's not any one comment. It's a pattern of racist, bigoted comments which you've become synonymous with.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 08:53:24 AM
So you do think Trump will screw Israel?

It's definitely possible. He's (as flippant as) a tantrum-prone three-year-old.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 28, 2016, 08:55:21 AM
So you do think Trump will screw Israel?

no I think that he will use this platform to work to make more accomplishments than any other US president in the past 20+ years.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 08:58:58 AM
no I think that he will use this platform to work to make more accomplishments than any other US president in the past 20+ years.

Accomplishments is a subjective term, especially if it's disruption just for the sake of disruption.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 28, 2016, 08:59:59 AM
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/congress-moving-cut-u-s-funding-un-wake-anti-israel-vote/

Nice to read how "Bibi's friend" Biden made a special call to the President of Ukraine to force him to vote for the UN measure instead of abstaining. That is in addition to what we read yesterday of Kerry meeting and plotting this resolution with New Zealand in the first place.
It seems that it was a high priority for BHO to make sure that not only did this pass, but that it passed 14-0 instead of maybe 13-0.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 28, 2016, 09:01:22 AM
Accomplishments is a subjective term, especially if it's disruption just for the sake of disruption.

true; however with a strong message as appointing David Friedman as ambassador to Israel, he's show sincere, authentic interest in doing it for the sake of doing it right for the safe and secure future of Israel rather than just to make waves.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 28, 2016, 09:09:38 AM
It's not any one comment. It's a pattern of racist, bigoted comments which you've become synonymous with.
Post one besides for me calling Obama by his middle name.
Unless you mean because I support Trump...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 09:09:45 AM
http://forward.com/opinion/358516/actually-this-un-resolution-is-much-better-than-71-others-the-us-allowed-to/
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 09:17:02 AM
It's definitely possible. He's (as flippant as) a tantrum-prone three-year-old.
Have you seen any evidence of that in action rather than just in words and tweets?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 09:26:46 AM
true; however with a strong message as appointing David Friedman as ambassador to Israel, he's show sincere, authentic interest in doing it for the sake of doing it right for the safe and secure future of Israel rather than just to make waves.

Ambassadors can be recalled at a moments notice.

Have you seen any evidence of that in action rather than just in words and tweets?

Actions start Jan 20th, until then it's all posturing.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 09:40:08 AM
Trump will be Israel's biggest supporter as long as they never say one negative thing about him.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 09:42:23 AM
Ambassadors can be recalled at a moments notice.

Actions start Jan 20th, until then it's all posturing.
He has a long history of action outside of the political world. Is there any reason to believe that his acting the way you described is mute than posturing?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 09:51:11 AM
Trump will be Israel's biggest supporter as long as they never say one negative thing about him.
Actually as long as they keep saying positive things..
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 09:53:10 AM
Actually as long as they keep saying positive things..
That will even be better.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yuneeq on December 28, 2016, 09:58:21 AM
So you do think Trump will screw Israel?

Exactly the opposite
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 10:16:20 AM
Trump will be Israel's biggest supporter as long as they never say one negative thing about him.
Too true.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 10:21:28 AM
Trump will be Israel's biggest supporter as long as they never say one negative thing about him.

What if both Abbas and Netanyahu suck up?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 10:24:53 AM
What if both Abbas and Netanyahu suck up?
Then it goes to has the hotter wife.  :)

Israel has the inside track and it is theirs to lose.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 28, 2016, 10:27:51 AM

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 10:30:57 AM
Trump Trump he's our man
if he can't do it nobody can

Lets not forget

Red Rover, Red Rover, send Trump right over
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: username on December 28, 2016, 10:34:19 AM

Took him 6 minutes to finish the sentence?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 10:34:42 AM
Trump Trump he's our man
if he can't do it nobody can
I think the primary sentiment is more "he better than the alternative" other that for a few of them. In this thread we have seen some #nevertrumpers send a message of "Help me Donald you're my only hope"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 10:35:29 AM
Took him 6 minutes to finish the sentence?
He had to Google when he takes office.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 28, 2016, 10:35:36 AM
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 10:38:17 AM
He knows how to suck up and he better get use to it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 11:14:14 AM
He knows how to suck up and he better get use to it.

Didn't someone just say the other day "flattery will get you everywhere?"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 11:17:47 AM
Sad to see the Israel issue become so partisan  :'(
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 11:20:14 AM
Sad to see the Israel issue become so partisan  :'(
Well, Obama was criticized from both sides of the aisle.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 11:23:43 AM
Didn't someone just say the other day "flattery will get you everywhere?"

Why yes, I did indeed quote my grandmother as saying that. Though she meant it in the "Bubby your latkas are delicious" kinda way, not the "Why sir, you are an incredible human being who will make Israel and America Great Again - please-don't-let-them-take-me-to-the-Hague-for-war-crimes," kinda way.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 11:37:19 AM
The appointment of Jason Greenblatt as "special Representative for International Negotiations" is definitely a good sign for Israel in the incoming administration. He has been with the Trump Organization for over 20 years and is currently Executive VP and Chief Legal Officer. He is a cousin of my Shvigger and will definitely be fair to Israel.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 11:43:12 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0suzRzWQAATReN.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 11:44:07 AM
What if both Abbas and Netanyahu suck up?
Well Trump will be surrounded with some very pro Israel guys
The appointment of Jason Greenblatt as "special Representative for International Negotiations" is definitely a good sign for Israel in the incoming administration. He has been with the Trump Organization for over 20 years and is currently Executive VP and Chief Legal Officer. He is a cousin of my Shvigger and will definitely be fair to Israel.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 11:46:02 AM
Trump will be Israel's biggest supporter as long as they never say one negative thing about him.
I haven't agreed with you in awhile so I have to go on record here and say I sadly agree.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 28, 2016, 11:48:37 AM
I haven't agreed with you in awhile so I have to go on record here and say I sadly agree.
I think Bibi is aware of that so hopefully everything will be good.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 11:49:36 AM
I think Bibi is aware of that so hopefully everything will be good.
Yup. He is an expert.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 11:50:30 AM
Sad to see the Israel issue become so partisan  :'(
Yes, but this didn't happen over night. It's been drifting that way for years. Now it's just becoming more obvious.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: since1492 on December 28, 2016, 11:51:14 AM
why doesnt israel ban the UN?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 11:57:57 AM
why doesnt israel ban the UN?
UN is our playpen. Let them do what they want. Let them think they make the rules. In the end we all know who is in charge.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 12:00:48 PM
UN is our playpen. Let them do what they want. Let them think they make the rules. In the end we all know who is in charge.
Except billions of dollars which could go to aid truly suffering people in war torn and poverty stricken countries now goes to a circus run by a monkey.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yuneeq on December 28, 2016, 12:21:23 PM
Took him 6 minutes to finish the sentence?

1) It's a tweet which he gotta finish with 140 character limits while trying to word it correctly. I know it's taken me a few minutes to write a tweet that barely anyone reads

2) Maybe he got busy in between?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 12:39:15 PM
1) It's a tweet which he gotta finish with 140 character limits while trying to word it correctly. I know it's taken me a few minutes to write a tweet that barely anyone reads

2) Maybe he got busy in between?
WHat could possibly be more important than a tweet?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 28, 2016, 12:50:24 PM
Kerry actually said "nakba."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 12:51:28 PM
You know, hearing Kerry be so astoundingly brilliant in his assessment of the Israeli-Palestinian issue makes me wonder why he hasn't solved other issues in his tenure, like ISIS, Syria, and bakeries not putting enough filling in their Chanukah donuts.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zale on December 28, 2016, 12:54:05 PM
You know, hearing Kerry be so astoundingly brilliant in his assessment of the Israeli-Palestinian issue makes me wonder why he hasn't solved other issues in his tenure, like ISIS, Syria, and bakeries not putting enough filling in their Chanukah donuts.

WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 12:57:22 PM
Well Trump will be surrounded with some very pro Israel guys

Trump Could Be Even More Wrong on Israel (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj6l5_fppfRAhUh7IMKHUKlBrcQFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Ftrump-could-be-even-more-wrong-on-israel-1482882327&usg=AFQjCNEULpwUu5AmQWf7jSej2diyMcxZXg&sig2=60hvANp4WCNvgvMfWhVO9A)
The 2012 platform of the Republican Party contained a familiar plank: “We support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state with secure, defensible borders; and we envision two democratic states—Israel with Jerusalem as its capital and Palestine.”
In 2016, however, the reference to a two-state solution disappears. While calling for the establishment of “comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, to be negotiated among those living in the region,” the platform declares its opposition to “any measures intended to impose an agreement or to dictate borders or other terms.”
The Republican platform committee did not act on its own. According to a detailed account in the July 14 Foreign Policy (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/14/how-donald-trump-and-the-gop-dropped-the-two-state-solution-for-mideast-peace/), “The new platform language was drafted with not only the blessing but the intimate involvement of two of Trump’s closest aides, Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman. . . .” Soon after the language was approved, Messrs. Greenblatt and Friedman announced (https://medium.com/@jgreenblatt/joint-statement-from-jason-dov-greenblatt-and-david-friedman-advisors-to-donald-j-trump-on-israel-a8187a5c3f9d#.lu7gom6gb) that “We stand resolutely with Mr. Trump in his belief that no country should pressure Israel into making peace, and we are gratified that this conviction is expressed in the platform.”
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 12:59:09 PM
You know, hearing Kerry be so astoundingly brilliant in his assessment of the Israeli-Palestinian issue makes me wonder why he hasn't solved other issues in his tenure, like ISIS, Syria, and bakeries not putting enough filling in their Chanukah donuts.
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.


We need a two bakery solution.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 12:59:47 PM
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.

Heretic. Your donuts are a nakba
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 28, 2016, 01:00:41 PM
Israeli PM to deliver speech soon on the Kerry ME speech. I did not listen to the speech was it against Israel? Or not so bad?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 28, 2016, 01:01:33 PM
Maybe Bibi was not so stupid to attack Obama...

See the update to this article.
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/12/28/hoyer-to-kerry-shut-up/
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 01:02:13 PM
Israeli PM to deliver speech soon on the Kerry ME speech. I did not listen to the speech was it against Israel? Or not so bad?
It was a standard "Kerry" release.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 01:03:01 PM
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.
Only from the jelly.....
We need a two bakery solution.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 28, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Maybe Bibi was not so stupid to attack Obama...

See the update to this article.
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/12/28/hoyer-to-kerry-shut-up/
Bibi believes that coming out so strong against Obama will create pressure on Obama not to continue down this path, from both sides of the isle. ( If he's correct is something else..)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on December 28, 2016, 01:17:18 PM
Is was a standard "Kerry" release.
Oiy
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 01:17:48 PM
Israeli PM to deliver speech soon on the Kerry ME speech. I did not listen to the speech was it against Israel? Or not so bad?

There were some truths in it. He did acknowledge Netanyahu is the Prime Minister, Shimon Peres has passed away, and that his speech will not bring peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 01:30:09 PM
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.
Real ultimate popcorn about to pop up in here, boy!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: A3 on December 28, 2016, 01:30:18 PM
The trending quote is "Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic, it cannot be both"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 01:30:51 PM
The trending quote is "Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic, it cannot be both"
I literally have no idea what he meant by that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 01:31:10 PM
From Whatsapp

"John Kerry must’ve forgotten that Arafat rejected every single offer from Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert and Ariel Sharon. Those offers were basically giving them everything they ever wanted and he still rejected. John Kerry also probably did not hear the radio interview between a Hamas leader and a US talk show. The Hamas animal was asked if they would cease attacking Israelis if they reverted 100% to pre 1967 borders. His answer was- we need to wait and see. So the host pushed him to give a more concrete answer. After all the fumbling his answer was a resounding NO! There you have it Mr. Kerry, it’s the Palestinians who need to choose between remaining in misery or joining the rest of the civilized world."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Sammy82 on December 28, 2016, 01:33:11 PM
The trending quote is "Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic, it cannot be both"
WTH. I can't believe he said that. Actually I could.
Now, if he said that regarding that arab nations, then I wouldn't believe it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 01:33:44 PM
The trending quote is "Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic, it cannot be both"

That's actually a pretty deep concept.
Democracy is from the Greeks. I thought we won that battle.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 01:34:58 PM
That's actually a pretty deep concept.
Democracy is from the Greeks. I thought we won that battle.
New headlines "Kerry uses Chabad Meorah Lighting Speech to blast Israel."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 28, 2016, 01:42:39 PM
From Whatsapp

"John Kerry must’ve forgotten that Arafat rejected every single offer from Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert and Ariel Sharon. Those offers were basically giving them everything they ever wanted and he still rejected. John Kerry also probably did not hear the radio interview between a Hamas leader and a US talk show. The Hamas animal was asked if they would cease attacking Israelis if they reverted 100% to pre 1967 borders. His answer was- we need to wait and see. So the host pushed him to give a more concrete answer. After all the fumbling his answer was a resounding NO! There you have it Mr. Kerry, it’s the Palestinians who need to choose between remaining in misery or joining the rest of the civilized world."

Palestinians have already rejected the framework for peace in speech.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Boruch999 on December 28, 2016, 02:01:53 PM
Quote
Kerry says “fully ending the occupation” is the main issue for the Palestinians.

He says there are ways to secure both states with Jordanian and Egyptian assistance.

What is he smoking?  Has he forgotten Egypt's democratically elected Moslem Brotherhood govt? 
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Sammy82 on December 28, 2016, 02:04:22 PM
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/watch-live-israel-pm-netanyahu-makes-statement-842783811824
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 02:20:34 PM
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 02:21:38 PM
The trending quote is "Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic, it cannot be both"
So I actually heard the explanation of this line and it actually makes sense now.

He's saying if there is one state and all Palestinians are granted citizenship they would become the majority of voters and Israel will no longer be a Jewish state. The numbers do seem to add up by 2020 they will outnumber the Jews...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 28, 2016, 02:25:57 PM
So I actually heard the explanation of this line and it actually makes sense now.

He's saying if there is one state and all Palestinians are granted citizenship they would become the majority of voters and Israel will no longer be a Jewish state. The numbers do seem to add up by 2020 they will outnumber the Jews...

http://www.dailywire.com/news/11968/10-lies-secretary-state-kerry-told-during-his-big-ben-shapiro

Quote
2. “If The Choice Is One State, Israel Can Either Be Jewish Or Democratic. It Cannot Be Both.” This is patently absurd. There has been one state in the area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean for some 50 years. That state has been democratic. This lie rests on two absurd contentions: first, that if Israel were to annex all Judea and Samaria, Jews would be outnumbered by Arabs; second, that if Israel were to annex all lands, Israel would have to grant all Palestinian Arabs full citizenship or face status as an apartheid state. The first claim is simply false – Jews outnumber Palestinian Arabs outside of the Gaza Strip by a factor of two-to-one, and Jews now have the equivalent birth rate of Palestinian Arabs, and will soon have a higher birth rate, as Caroline Glick points out, meaning that Jewish majority status will increase, not decrease. Second, the United States does not offer citizenship to all the people living within its borders, or over territories over which it has sovereignty. Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are governed semi-autonomously, but citizens of Puerto Rico cannot vote in presidential elections in the United States. Israel could easily grant green cards to Palestinian residents while also giving them local control of their governance without a national vote.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 28, 2016, 02:27:15 PM
So I actually heard the explanation of this line and it actually makes sense now.

He's saying if there is one state and all Palestinians are granted citizenship they would become the majority of voters and Israel will no longer be a Jewish state. The numbers do seem to add up by 2020 they will outnumber the Jews...

that's incredible bs on the numbers
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 02:36:15 PM
that's incredible bs on the numbers
Why? I ran some numbers and it seemed right to me, as well as some articles on the subject.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 02:36:50 PM
that's incredible bs on the numbers
Depends if you include Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: shwarmabob on December 28, 2016, 02:40:56 PM
Why? I ran some numbers and it seemed right to me, as well as some articles on the subject.
People were scared of this a while back, but demographics have changed, Jewish birth rates increased and Arabs decreased over time.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 02:41:13 PM
Depends if you include Gaza.

That's why Ben Schapiro excluded Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 02:42:31 PM
That's why Ben Schapiro excluded Gaza.
Which is not what Kerry was talking about...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 02:49:34 PM
Which is not what Kerry was talking about...

As a practical matter that is the number which counts. Israel has no involvement in the governance of Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 02:51:10 PM
As a practical matter that is the number which counts. Israel has no involvement in the governance of Gaza.
You and I both know a one state solution with citizenship to all Palestinians would never happen, but what if it did, would Gaza not be part of that peace?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 02:53:10 PM
Another point worth making is that if the numbers ever did get close to Arabs over populating the Jews the amount of Jewish immigrants making aliya would likely skyrocket to insane numbers.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 02:53:43 PM
You and I both know a one state solution with citizenship to all Palestinians would never happen, but what if it did, would Gaza not be part of that peace?
At this point the facts on the ground have been created.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: efflpetzel on December 28, 2016, 02:55:38 PM
It was a standard "Kerry" release.
;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: shwarmabob on December 28, 2016, 03:05:51 PM
Just to put some historical prospective in these current events:
United Nations Security Council Resolution 138 was adopted on June 23, 1960, after a complaint that the transfer of Adolf Eichmann to Israel from Argentina constituted a violation of the latter's sovereignty.

United Nations Security Council resolution 487, adopted unanimously on 19 June 1981, having noted representations from Iraq and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Council condemned an attack by Israel on an IAEA-approved nuclear site in Iraq.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 03:15:19 PM
I literally have no idea what he meant by that.
You been having that problem lately.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 03:20:13 PM
You been having that problem lately.
I explained it since, so I may have spoken a little premature but when dealing with Kerry that's likely SOP for him...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 03:28:48 PM
It was a standard "Kerry" release.

Now I get it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 03:39:13 PM
You been having that problem lately.

He's been having a hard time understanding what Liberals are saying since November 8th...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 03:40:34 PM
He's been having a hard time understanding what Liberals are saying since November 8th...
Do you mean some liberals or all?  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 28, 2016, 03:50:33 PM
Now I get it.
Disappointed with you :P
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 04:01:04 PM
Disappointed with you :P

I think an edit was made to add quotation marks. Then I got it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 04:26:31 PM
I think an edit was made to add quotation marks. Then I got it.
Nope. Edit was to change the first word from "is" to "it".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 04:27:56 PM
Nope. Edit was to change the first word from "is" to "it".

did you make up this joke or you heard it somewhere?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 04:29:47 PM
Didn't listen to Kerry's speech but from reading the posts here it seems he was 100% negative on Israel. Nothing positive in it?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 28, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
did you make up this joke or you heard it somewhere?
I do not recall hearing it anywhere.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 04:34:55 PM
I'm trying to remember in my lifetime if I ever saw a lame duck get this wild in literally his last few weeks in office. I don't think I have. Not even close. And the weird thing is... there are SOOOO many things that Mr. Hope and Change got everyone whipped up about back in 2008 and that he never delivered on. THIS... THIS is his last bold move? It really shows you that in the end of the day these leaders really aren't the ones running the show v'da"l.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 04:35:07 PM
I do not recall hearing it anywhere.

You da man. Nice joke.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 04:36:38 PM
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/443391/which-american-value-dictates-jews-cant-live-judea-or-samaria
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 04:40:45 PM
I'm trying to remember in my lifetime if I ever saw a lame duck get this wild in literally his last few weeks in office. I don't think I have. Not even close. And the weird thing is... there are SOOOO many things that Mr. Hope and Change got everyone whipped up about back in 2008 and that he never delivered on. THIS... THIS is his last bold move? It really shows you that in the end of the day these leaders really aren't the ones running the show v'da"l.
You have to give him credit on delivering on some of them even if we were against them.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 04:49:09 PM
Didn't listen to Kerry's speech but from reading the posts here it seems he was 100% negative on Israel. Nothing positive in it?
In a typical speech about Israel they will mention terrorism for about 30 seconds and then lecture about settlements for 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Freddie on December 28, 2016, 05:05:08 PM
You have to give him credit on delivering on some of them even if we were against them.

Dude, get real. Israel was not one of the issues he ran on in either election. Nobody elected him to do this.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 05:08:00 PM
Dude, get real. Israel was not one of the issues he ran on in either election. Nobody elected him to do this.
Did you see the bold part? He delivered on some of his promises. His presidency did not revolve around Israel.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 05:08:28 PM
Dude, get real. Israel was not one of the issues he ran on in either election. Nobody elected him to do this.
I assumed JTZ is referring to Obamacare, et al.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 05:09:54 PM
I assumed JTZ is referring to Obamacare, et al.
Can you be my interpreter?  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Ygold on December 28, 2016, 05:14:17 PM
...and don't forget, Israel is only one one hundredth of one percent of the worlds surface.
The stage is being set for the ultimate redemption of Moshiach. You are either with the Jewish people or against...

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 05:33:24 PM
Do you really believe all those organizations claim that Israel is the only violator?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: grodnoking on December 28, 2016, 05:33:43 PM
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.
No such thing as too much custard
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: coralsnake on December 28, 2016, 05:35:46 PM
You know, hearing Kerry be so astoundingly brilliant in his assessment of the Israeli-Palestinian issue makes me wonder why he hasn't solved other issues in his tenure, like ISIS, Syria, and bakeries not putting enough filling in their Chanukah donuts.
WAT?

They put TOO MUCH filling in the donuts.


I guess he solved it!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Ygold on December 28, 2016, 05:40:15 PM
Do you really believe all those organizations claim that Israel is the only violator?
Depends, if you are a "liberal", you don't let facts and history get in the way of your naivety...
Yes its true. If it's not prove it! Don't just sit there and insinuate that it's false because it doesn't sit well with your weltanschaug.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 05:45:07 PM
Do you really believe all those organizations claim that Israel is the only violator?
While I understand these are not unbiased sources, they can be a good start:

WHO
http://www.timesofisrael.com/who-singles-out-israel-for-probe-into-health-rights-abuses/
http://www.unwatch.org/un-vilifies-israel-worlds-violator-health-rights/

ILO
http://www.unwatch.org/uns-ilo-singles-israel-violator-labor-rights/

WRC
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/03/29/can-t-make-it-up-un-names-democratic-israel-as-world-s-top-human-rights-violator.html

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 05:47:37 PM
Depends, if you are a "liberal", you don't let facts and history get in the way of your naivety...
Yes its true. If it's not prove it! Don't just sit there and insinuate that it's false because it doesn't sit well with your weltanschaug.
You are going to need to do better than that. Prove to me that it is untrue that Donald Trump is really Mark Hammil's father. Search your feelings.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 28, 2016, 05:50:23 PM
https://m.facebook.com/tedcruzpage/posts/10154780803392464
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 05:53:09 PM
While I understand these are not unbiased sources, they can be a good start:
Try starting at the sites themselves. See if Israel is the only violator listed. I am not going to waste my time. Now if someone wants to put their money were their mouth is I will be more than happy to waste some time. Lets see how many takers I get.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 05:54:48 PM
Depends, if you are a "liberal", you don't let facts and history get in the way of your naivety...
Yes its true. If it's not prove it! Don't just sit there and insinuate that it's false because it doesn't sit well with your weltanschaug.
Try using some common sense and get news from more than just one place like FOX.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 05:54:51 PM
Try starting at the sites themselves. See if Israel is the only violator listed. I am not going to waste my time. Now if someone wants to put their money were their mouth is I will be more than happy to waste some time. Lets see how many takers I get.
They link to the reports
In general I have found UN Watch to be accurate though alarmist. Spending some time there may help you understand some the attitudes here towards the U.N.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 28, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
Great response by Bibi!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 06:06:07 PM
They link to the reports
Help me out here. I trying to find one report that says Israel is the "ONLY" violator as the video states over and over. We know they are anti-Israel but it doesn't strengthen the case to make things up.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 06:08:19 PM
Help me out here. I trying to find one report that says Israel is the "ONLY" violator as the video states over and over. We know they are anti-Israel but it doesn't strengthen the case to make things up.
It doesn't say in those words but Israel is the only country they singled out as a violator.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 06:12:47 PM
It doesn't say in those words but Israel is the only country they singled out as a violator.
...because it is not true. The video is pulling a Trump. The facts make them look bad enough. No need to make them HUGH!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 28, 2016, 06:25:25 PM
...because it is not true. The video is pulling a Trump. The facts make them look bad enough. No need to make them HUGH!
I can't say I laid that much attention to the video. Who is it anyhow?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 28, 2016, 06:27:43 PM
I can't say I laid that much attention to the video. Who is it anyhow?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11159.msg1634411#msg1634411
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Brian93 on December 28, 2016, 06:36:58 PM
I do not recall hearing it anywhere.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161228/6d8e94171c4ef13636f1551e0b2bb88f.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 06:38:28 PM
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorMarcoRubio/posts/1497922303566462
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: AsherO on December 28, 2016, 06:53:40 PM
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorMarcoRubio/posts/1497922303566462

Nice! Obama is helping to unify the Rs, Cruz and Rubio looking fwd to working with Trump.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2016, 07:38:17 PM
Link to Kerry speech?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 28, 2016, 07:50:59 PM
Excerpts:



Full:
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2016, 10:35:35 PM
Excerpts:



Full:

Thanks.

He's basically saying that these equal number of Arabs living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, are entitled to a state. Either their own, or to be part of a democracy joined with Israel.

Question is, why are they entitled to anything at all?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:37:39 AM
Big difference between Kerry's anti-Israel speech (yes you are reading that correctly) and Power's speech to the UN. You think Bibi's constant attacks had anything to do with it?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 01:05:35 AM
Big difference between Kerry's anti-Israel speech (yes you are reading that correctly) and Power's speech to the UN. You think Bibi's constant attacks had anything to do with it?
No. Power is not an anti-semite. Kerry is.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 01:09:39 AM
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorMarcoRubio/posts/1497922303566462
Good morning Rubio. Its nice to finally hear from him after a whole week. Its surprising that the only 2 GOP senators who have been talking for the past week have been Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz. But better late than never. Thanks for the support.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
Good morning Rubio. Its nice to finally hear from him after a whole week. Its surprising that the only 2 GOP senators who have been talking for the past week have been Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz. But better late than never. Thanks for the support.
Don't confuse support with pandering.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 01:16:34 AM
Don't confuse support with pandering.
It's not like he has a lot of Jews in his state.

But in any case, Rubio has made some fantastically incisive speeches about Israel from the Senate floor
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 01:21:21 AM
It's not like he has a lot of Jews in his state.

But in any case, Rubio has made some fantastically incisive speeches about Israel from the Senate floor
That is true. He was also very pro Israel during the Presidential campaign. That is why I found it surprising that it took him till now to speak up, especially being from Florida. Perhaps he has mellowed a bit since losing to Trump.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 01:24:21 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 01:50:12 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)
What a lame duck President does against the wishes of an absolute majority of 435 members of congress, and 100 senators, means nothing to me.
In fact, they are the American majority, and he is the anti-American one.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 01:58:15 AM
In fact, they are the American majority, and he is the anti-American one.
Check the election results for his two elections.

You still didn't answer the question and don't make it about this one issue.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yudamaan on December 29, 2016, 02:04:38 AM
http://matzav.com/watch-what-menachem-begin-would-tell-john-kerry/
Great video!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 02:19:40 AM
Check the election results for his two elections.

You still didn't answer the question and don't make it about this one issue.
He won 2 elections fair and square.
That being said, there is a huge difference between say Obamacare and Israel. Obamacare may or may not have been popular, but he convinced a  slight majority of the House and a slight majority of the Senate to go with him, and therefore he AND Congress were the majority.
With regard to throwing Israel under the bus, the majority of the House and Senate totally disagrees with him, yet he is doing what he wants, and nobody can stop him. I call that anti-democratic and anti-american.
I understand that many would call Giuliani an extremist, and he has the famous video where he questions if Obama truly loves America?. You can agree with what Giuliani said or not, but when was the last time somebody even 'thought' of questioning if a President of the United States truly loves America?! The only President I can recall someone even questioning the love for his country, is Obama.

He has caused America to look weak to the world. He panders to terrorist states, and throws American allies under the bus.

So yes, someone who is pushing to hurt Israel and help terrorists, would be considered un-American in my eyes, specifically when he is doing it with no majority in either the House or Senate.

Maybe I am wrong, but I put much more credence in 535 members of congress, than in 1 single President. If he is trying to do something than an absolute majority of both Houses disagree with, he is acting un-American in my book.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:15:17 AM
He won 2 elections fair and square.
That being said, there is a huge difference between say Obamacare and Israel. Obamacare may or may not have been popular, but he convinced a  slight majority of the House and a slight majority of the Senate to go with him, and therefore he AND Congress were the majority.
With regard to throwing Israel under the bus, the majority of the House and Senate totally disagrees with him, yet he is doing what he wants, and nobody can stop him. I call that anti-democratic and anti-american.
I understand that many would call Giuliani an extremist, and he has the famous video where he questions if Obama truly loves America?. You can agree with what Giuliani said or not, but when was the last time somebody even 'thought' of questioning if a President of the United States truly loves America?! The only President I can recall someone even questioning the love for his country, is Obama.

He has caused America to look weak to the world. He panders to terrorist states, and throws American allies under the bus.

So yes, someone who is pushing to hurt Israel and help terrorists, would be considered un-American in my eyes, specifically when he is doing it with no majority in either the House or Senate.

Maybe I am wrong, but I put much more credence in 535 members of congress, than in 1 single President. If he is trying to do something than an absolute majority of both Houses disagree with, he is acting un-American in my book.
I hear what you are saying and you make valid points. You still have not answered my simple question.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 29, 2016, 06:33:16 AM
Good morning Rubio. Its nice to finally hear from him after a whole week. Its surprising that the only 2 GOP senators who have been talking for the past week have been Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz. But better late than never. Thanks for the support.

Rubio was on it a week ago.



Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 09:27:01 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)
Bump for the morning crowd.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Moshe123 on December 29, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
What a lame duck President does against the wishes of an absolute majority of 435 members of congress, and 100 senators, means nothing to me.
In fact, they are the American majority, and he is the anti-American one.


Bump for the morning crowd.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 09:28:25 AM
Rubio was on it a week ago.



My apologies then. I guess i didn't see anything because he didn't do any videos on foxnews for example, like Cruz and Graham.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:28:34 AM
Bump for the morning crowd.
It depends on the issues that they are siding against.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 09:29:34 AM
Bump for the morning crowd.
Check the election results for his two elections.

You still didn't answer the question and don't make it about this one issue.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:30:50 AM
Bump for the morning crowd.
We don't like in a pure democracy we live in a representative democracy and to say you don't like it or one is more valuable than another is a bit silly. It would seem you don't like the civics of the US in general. Switzerland would probably be much more in line with what you like.

If congress votes for something and the majority of citizens oppose it are you then going to discard what congress does as anti-american...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 09:32:02 AM


ETA: deleted. I wrote something stupid.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:32:25 AM
My apologies then. I guess i didn't see anything because he didn't do any videos on foxnews for example, like Cruz and Graham.
Try get news from more than just one place like FOX.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 09:34:13 AM
If congress votes for something and the majority of citizens oppose it are you then going to discard what congress does as anti-american...
No, see how easy that was to answer. Now can I get an answer (yes or no) to my question?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 09:35:24 AM

Ok. I didn't see him or hear his name mentioned on either fox, cnn, or the jewish sites.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:37:06 AM
No, see how easy that was to answer. Now can I get an answer (yes or no) to my question?
You didn't ask a specific question so you aren't getting a specific answer.

If someone opposes everything the US does that does make them anti-american.

But opposing murder being illegal will also make them anti-human.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 09:40:19 AM
You didn't ask a specific question so you aren't getting a specific answer.

If someone opposes everything the US does that does make them anti-american.

But opposing murder being illegal will also make them anti-human.
Nice tip toe dance you are trying to do. The question is if you side with a foreign governments position consistently over the US does that make you anti-American?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:41:41 AM
Nice tip toe dance you are trying to do. The question is if you side with a foreign governments position consistently over the US does that make you anti-American?
If you don't specify which positions you are talking about your question is ridiculous. There is a big difference between founding principals and current policies.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 09:43:37 AM
If you don't specify which positions you are talking about your question is ridiculous. There is a big difference between founding principals and current policies.
Your non answer is an answer. I thank you.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 09:49:23 AM
Your non answer is an answer. I thank you.  :)
Seriously.

Can we take Israel for example because it's on topic of this thread. People say that Obama is still Israel's best friend because he vetoed the most UN resolutions, but it's a ridiculous point. Bush let resolutions pass calling to halt building in the disputed areas. That isn't so much anti-Israel as a slap on the wrist, he wants to make peace, and thinks this would help make peace. On the other hand passing even one resolution that says that Israel doesn't own the western wall is completely anti-Israel and can be stretched to being anti-semetic as it denies one of the most basic principles of the Jewish faith that our temple, is simply put, ours.

If someone breaks the laws are they a bad person you may ask, well Joe jay walked a thousand times so an you may think he is a very bad person while Tim never broke a law in his life until he murdered a baby. Any rational person will realize that Tim is the very bad person and Joe may not be bad at all in fact.

Hope my analogies help you as well.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 09:50:08 AM
Nice tip toe dance you are trying to do. The question is if you side with a foreign governments position consistently over the US does that make you anti-American?
If it goes against the US President as well as against the "Absolute" majority of both houses of Congress, then perhaps it does.

In the case of Israel, as I've pointed out quite clearly in the last page, there is nobody that you can call anti American if they choose to go with Israel and the majority of 535 members of congress vs the lame duck.
If anything, a lame duck president who is trying to do what he wants against the wishes of his successor or against a majority of both houses, he might be acting un-american in my book. Presidents are not kings, he is supposed to work with congress, and sign off on them or has veto power. He should not be making world policy on how he feels when he woke up that morning, against the wishes of either party in either house
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 10:13:36 AM
Any rational person will realize that Tim is the very bad person and Joe may not be bad at all in fact.
That would only be rational if you were comparing the two. I am not comparing anything. What Tim did (very bad) has no effect on if I consider Joe a bad person for jay walking.

Your analogies do help me understand your non-answer answer.  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 10:20:58 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)
I don't see that disagreeing with a specific policy of the US is anti American even if it is consistently beneficial to a foreign government. Why should it be? That sounds very much like the anti Semitic Israel first trope.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 10:23:43 AM
That would only be rational if you were comparing the two. I am not comparing anything. What Tim did (very bad) has no effect on if I consider Joe a bad person for jay walking.

Your analogies do help me understand your non-answer answer.  ;)
I guessed, you were going to pick up on the end of his post to talk amount the imaginary Tim and joe, so you can speak in riddles, instead of adressing this thread that is specific to Israel.
 You are asking your anti-american questions on this thread instead of starting a brand new thread in the just smooze section, because your underlying opinion (in your question) seems to be (or subtly hint) that Americans that support Israel time and time again, may be considered Anti-American.
I think i have told you time and time again, that for sure as long as we have a majority in at least either party (let alone both) that chooses to support Israel, such thought of yours have no basis.
On a further note (that doesn't apply in the case of Israel), i would say that you can't call someone anti-american if even lets say only 15-20% of congress agrees with that position. The fact that 70 or 80 congress members agree with him is enough that his position is not anti-American. Its just dissenting from the majority.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 10:25:39 AM
Why should it be?
Your joking right? If I side with Russia consistently over the US I wouldn't be called anti-American?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 10:38:24 AM
I think i have told you time and time again, that for sure as long as we have a majority in at least either party (let alone both) that chooses to support Israel, such thought of yours have no basis.
The president supports Israel, congress supports Israel, AFAIK the American people support Israel and I also support Israel. For anyone to call the president anti-Israel based on this one toothless resolution is crazy.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 10:43:14 AM
The president supports Israel, congress supports Israel, AFAIK the American people support Israel and I also support Israel. For anyone to call the president anti-Israel based on this one toothless resolution is crazy.
So you think Tim is a good guy. Got it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 10:49:38 AM
So you think Tim is a good guy. Got it.
Who are you referring to as Tim.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 10:55:04 AM
Who are you referring to as Tim.
The guy who allowed a resolution to pass that states the temple isn't on Jewish land.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 10:55:40 AM
So you think Tim is a good guy. Got it.
Please don't confuse JTZ with a imaginary Tim and Joe. Try to speak directly with the issue on hand (Israel), do that he understands exactly what i am saying, and i understand what he is saying. This may we don't get confused what we each meant.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 10:56:33 AM
Please don't confuse JTZ with Tim and Joe. Try to speak directly with the issue on hand (Israel), do that he understands exactly what i am saying, and i understand what he is saying. This may we don't get confused what we each meant.
I like talking in mishalim.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 10:57:18 AM
The guy who allowed a resolution to pass that states the temple isn't on Jewish land.
So in your warped mind the baby killer. Got it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 29, 2016, 10:57:33 AM
I like talking in mishalim.
Some times its better not to :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: cholent on December 29, 2016, 10:58:09 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)
Not necessarily. It depends on the position you are siding with and whether it is harmful for the US. In this situation I think most posters to this thread agree that supporting Israel is in the US's best interest as well as consistent with its historical position. Siding with Russia that has an adversarial relationship with the US, on issues that negatively impact US standing or goals, would not be the same
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 10:59:59 AM
So in your warped mind the baby killer. Got it.
Does the Vatican belong to the church or Italy?

Curious. How would it go over if the Vatican was accused of occupation of Italy and they wanted them to declare the land the property of the Italian Government?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 11:00:17 AM
Some times its better not to :)
I like to make him speechless.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
In this situation I think most posters to this thread agree that supporting Israel is in the US's best interest as well as consistent with its historical position.
No argument from me on this one.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 29, 2016, 11:02:33 AM
The real question here is when will JTZ visit the holy land?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:03:43 AM
The real question here is when will JTZ visit the holy land?
It depends if JJ will let me visit something he claims to own.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 11:06:35 AM
It depends if JJ will let me visit something he claims to own.
Funny you should say that as a Levi I personally don't own any land as my life is dedicated to serving Hashem. *Halo emjoi*
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: alexk. on December 29, 2016, 11:11:56 AM
Just weighing in...
I think the answer to your question  is as follows:
When you say " opinion of World Leaders", you are assuming that these are objective opinions. As you can see from the "greatest" democracy in the world, a world leader does not necessarily carry the opinion of what congress (in our case), which gives a broader representation of our country feels. If our democratic leader is skewed by his own personal agendas, what does that say for the rest of the world??? The bottom line is that the Moslem population worldwide outnumbers the Jewish population by many multiples. World leaders have their own agenda, wither it is to make their constituents happy, keep their power, financial considerations of their country and own wallets, etc...

Look at Egypt and Saudi Arabia... They have to put on a front of we hate Israel, but reports show that they are absolutely scared of what would happen if Israel would be Palestine. You think the Chinese don't benefit and appreciate Israel's contribution to their economies? But the Arab world is so much bigger... Same with Russia. So, how are we to weigh public opinion? How many Arab Israelis are afraid of living in "Palestine"? They would lose their democratic rights... Israel allows Arabs to live in their country. Palestinians have said they would never allow Jews in their country.

We as jews, may be biased to Israel. But we all are biased one way or another.

However, the United States and Israel, 2 democracies that are both sworn enemies of "Radical Islam" ( don't tell BO we used those words), have a common fight. We gave land to the terrorists in the name of peace before. What did they do with it? Appeasement with land does not work with these people.

BO has taken the position, wither it was Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc... that instead of standing for what American Values are, we will try to appease them and they will like us more. What do you think the world opinion is with regard to a Nuclear Iran? It is a good idea??? But the world leaders would rather stick their heads in the sand and worry about their own countries.

American values have always been pro-democracy. Israel is a democratic country. Would Palestine be democratic??? The stance he took was against the wishes of his constituents ( congress) and against the only other democracy in the region. How can the United States turn blindly to the Terrorism that is sponsored by Palestinians? Only BO, who believes that you appease the wolf first would think that this is the best form of peace.

At best he is misguided in thinking that the only way to peace is to first give the terrorists what they want and that will stop them from their terrorist ambitions. More likely, he is just anti-american and anti-Israel. It is all about his liberal agenda.

Why no intervention in Syria? That could've been his legacy? This was just much easier for him. And if this was his policy all along, why wait until after the election, in the 11th hour to do it? Obviously he knew that the "popular opinion" is not with him...

So if the leader of the most "democratic" country does not follow the popular or sensical opinion of his country and pushes his personal Liberal agenda, what does that say for every other country? Everyone has an agenda ( as do we...).

The bottom line is we are too small of a factor of the world for the "world leader opinion" to be objective.   
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:13:59 AM
Funny you should say that as a Levi I personally don't own any land as my life is dedicated to serving Hashem. *Halo emjoi*
I was talking about the Temple you claim is part yours. You real need to get on the ball. From someone that was Ivy league educated you are getting beat up by someone who shouldn't of even graduated HS.  :P
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:21:08 AM
At best he is misguided in thinking that the only way to peace is to first give the terrorists what they want and that will stop them from their terrorist ambitions. More likely, he is just anti-american and anti-Israel. It is all about his liberal agenda.
So now not only is he anti-Israel he is also anti-American? The hits just keep on coming.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: alexk. on December 29, 2016, 11:27:35 AM
That line was a nod to many of the Republicans who have used that verbiage before.... You have to be willing to hear an answer if you want to propose a question...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
That line was a nod to many of the Republicans who have used that verbiage before.... You have to be willing to hear an answer if you want to propose a question...
The problem is a can never get an answer to what I ask. You clarified what you meant and I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 11:35:21 AM
I was talking about the Temple you claim is part yours. You real need to get on the ball. From someone that was Ivy league educated you are getting beat up by someone who shouldn't of even graduated HS.  :P
Man oh man are you lost. The temple can't even be visited during galus.

The problem is a can never get an answer to what I ask. You clarified what you meant and I appreciate that.
Because you ask ridiculously vague questions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 11:36:07 AM
The problem is a can never get an answer to what I ask.

You ask ridiculously obtuse questions to expect pointed one word answers.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:40:04 AM
You ask ridiculously obtuse questions to expect pointed one word answers.
I can ask if 2+2=4 and wouldn't be able to get a straight answer.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 11:40:30 AM
I can ask if 2+2=4 and wouldn't be able to get a straight answer.
Try me
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: alexk. on December 29, 2016, 11:41:39 AM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? - This is the question.

The short answer is: The world view is also "Anti-American". They do not hold our values. So why would siding with Foreign Governments be " Pro - American"? That would be "Anti-American".
 
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:44:06 AM
Because you ask ridiculously vague questions.
You ask ridiculously obtuse questions to expect pointed one word answers.
It seems at least one person is capable on answering.
The short answer is: The world view is also "Anti-American". They do not hold our values. So why would siding with Foreign Governments be " Pro - American"? That would be "Anti-American".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: shulem92 on December 29, 2016, 11:45:55 AM
I can ask if 2+2=4 and wouldn't be able to get a straight answer.
Did u mean 1+1=3? HT AchasVachas
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Did u mean 1+1=3? HT AchasVachas
What ever happen to him? Hope everything is OK.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 11:57:00 AM
It seems at least one person is capable on answering.
With due respect, saying the rest of the world doesn't "share our values" is equally idiotic and obtuse.

Define: anti American.
Define: values.

"Foreign governments" range from Russia, Syria, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Israel, Germany to Kenya. Do you honestly believe one answer fits all?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 11:57:55 AM
It seems at least one person is capable on answering.
His answer is very one sided. Assuming that world governments don't hold the same values as the US does.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 11:58:20 AM
With due respect, saying the rest of the world doesn't "share our values" is equally idiotic and obtuse.

Define: anti American.
Define: values.

"Foreign governments" range from Russia, Syria, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Israel, Germany to Kenya. Do you honestly believe one answer fits all?
Lol, seems we are answering the same thing here.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:00:15 PM
His answer is very one sided. Assuming that world governments don't hold the same values as the US does.
With due respect, saying the rest of the world doesn't "share our values" is equally idiotic and obtuse.

Define: anti American.
Define: values.

"Foreign governments" range from Russia, Syria, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Israel, Germany to Kenya. Do you honestly believe one answer fits all?
So you didn't like the answer?  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 12:00:58 PM
The term "anti" is used a lot in this thread so let me try one. If you consistently side with a foreign governments position over the US is that being anti-American? Should I wait until Friday for this question?  :)

I'd like to take a stab at this.

Let's start with: Define foreign govt position.

Define US position.

Define consistently.

If you're talking about the leader of each of these countries, what if the leaders' opinions don't agree with the people of that country? If BO's opinion on something is not what most of the ppl want, what then? What about if I agree with BO/American ppl on everything except one issue? Do I need to be put in my place? Should my opinions be limited to what the govt says, for fear that I am anti-American or offending someone?

If I consistently side with Bibi vs. BO on one issue, are you going to claim I am anti-American?

And what if I side with Russia on Syria vs. the American policy of "Red-Lines-Oops-They-were-crossed-and-we're-still-not-going-to-do-anything. Five-years-later-and-we're-still-clueless"? Does that make me anti-American?

Even if I don't support what our govt is doing around the world, or even in the US, am I still anti-American? I can't hold American values (see: Constitution but you can ask me to be more precise, its only fair) but disagree with our president/people?

Disagreement with the President/Ppl on foreign/domestic policy does not equal Anti-American.

You jumped up about 15 flights of stairs with that question. If you took it one step at a time, you might have been able to corner some sucker into saying "ah-uh-um-uh-5th-amendement".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 12:02:18 PM
Because you ask ridiculously vague questions.

+1
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 12:03:34 PM
So you didn't like the answer?  :)

As I said, the question is ridiculously obtuse, any one word answer you would accept would be be Kerry-level-stupid on its face.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:04:41 PM
If I consistently side with Bibi vs. BO on one issue, are you going to claim I am anti-American?
This is the whole problem. I wouldn't do that but most here are doing the reverse.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 12:09:27 PM
So you didn't like the answer?  :)
The problem was within the question.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 12:10:04 PM
This is the whole problem. I wouldn't do that but most here are doing the reverse.

I see your point. But that resolution does not contain just 1 issue of settlements.

It misses what most congresspeople and the Israeli public think is the root of not having peace. It's BO's opinion that the root is the settlements. It misses the point of the Jewish connection to Jerusalem (specifically Western Wall). It misses/disagrees with A LOT more than 1 issue.

So you're question isn't a valid question, because its not one issue. There are multiple issues on that resolution, many of which don't coincide with the opinions of the congresspeople of this fine country, nor with the Israeli govt. Saying BO is anti-israel because of settlements is not fair, agreed. But that resolution was a lot more than that.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:13:42 PM
But that resolution was a lot more than that.
That is a whole discussion by itself.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:16:10 PM
The problem was within the question.
So is that a no?  ::)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 12:18:07 PM
That is a whole discussion by itself.

And so then your question wasn't valid. So you can't really keep asking people for a one-word answer.

As I said, the question is ridiculously obtuse, any one word answer you would accept would be be Kerry-level-stupid on its face.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on December 29, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
So is that a no?  ::)
You know when your teacher told you there is no such thing as a stupid question.

She was wrong.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 12:23:55 PM
This is the whole problem. I wouldn't do that but most here are doing the reverse.

Please. I have defended Obama here plenty. With the resolution, he left a lot of people saying this:


Kerry's speech yesterday made the resolution *even worse* - it clearly revealed a fundamental lack of understanding of the core issues, and created a moral equivalence between murdering innocent children and building houses. Not to mention the lies and deceit that came along with it.

Bibi is a right winger reviled by so many on the middle and left, here and Israel. Yet, magically, on this the consensus is Obama screwed up.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:25:19 PM
And so then your question wasn't valid. So you can't really keep asking people for a one-word answer.
You keep reading a lot more into the question than what is there. Stop approaching the question as if I answer this how is he going to turn this against me.

If asked that question to 100 people on the street what do you think there answer would be?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 12:26:17 PM
You know when your teacher told you there is no such thing as a stupid question.

She was wrong.
She was right when she told me there are stupid answers.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 12:32:23 PM
Your joking right? If I side with Russia consistently over the US I wouldn't be called anti-American?
Regarding policy? Why would it be? Would it be anti american to feel that Russia has a right to Crimea? Maybe I am just not fully briefed on Crimea. If it is a question of policy then it would not be anti American if it would be to favor Russia. If it is something about which they are adversarial and it would be to the detriment of the US then it would be. That is why I specified policy yet you created a straw man.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 12:41:23 PM
You keep reading a lot more into the question than what is there. Stop approaching the question as if I answer this how is he going to turn this against me.

Well you seem to be trying to corner everybody who says anything except "Yes" to your answer so your attitude is contradictory. And I'm not really reading anything more into it, but I'd like to understand what you mean by the question before I answer it. Wasn't aware asking for definitions of some of your terms was considered avoidance.

Here's another analogy for you - "Do you want to play ball?" "What type of ball? Basketball, baseball, football..." "Stop avoiding my question and answer, do you want to play, yes, or no?"

You can't have it both ways.

If asked that question to 100 people on the street what do you think there answer would be?

You'd probably get a mix of "yes" idk" "maybe" "no".
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 12:45:42 PM
If asked that question to 100 people on the street what do you think there answer would be?

If stopping people on the street is your criteria for insightful answers, you might be disappointed (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jimmy+kimmel+street+interviews).
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 12:53:32 PM
You keep reading a lot more into the question than what is there. Stop approaching the question as if I answer this how is he going to turn this against me.
But we know how that is how we need to answer any such question from you. Just look at how you created a straw man from 3 words of my answer.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 29, 2016, 12:57:22 PM
Well you seem to be trying to corner everybody who says anything except "Yes" to your answer so your attitude is contradictory. And I'm not really reading anything more into it, but I'd like to understand what you mean by the question before I answer it. Wasn't aware asking for definitions of some of your terms was considered avoidance.

Here's another analogy for you - "Do you want to play ball?" "What type of ball? Basketball, baseball, football..." "Stop avoiding my question and answer, do you want to play, yes, or no?"

You can't have it both ways.

You'd probably get a mix of "yes" idk" "maybe" "no".
And how ironic coming from JTZ our in house master of deflection.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ExGingi on December 29, 2016, 01:05:48 PM
So now not only is he anti-Israel he is also anti-American? The hits just keep on coming.  :)
He (BHO, just clarifying as my head is spinning from trying to catch up on this thread) got elected twice as an Anti-American. Though he often lied his way through it.

For the record, I define Anti-American as opposing the values and positions of the US Constitution (originalist).
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 01:11:42 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C03OWk1XcAEGV6S.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 01:15:50 PM
The president supports Israel, congress supports Israel, AFAIK the American people support Israel and I also support Israel. For anyone to call the president anti-Israel based on this one toothless resolution is crazy.
As far as the resolution being toothless, there are reasons it may have sharper teeth than you realize as well as it being significantly worse that the resolutions previous presidents allowed to pass.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.761090
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Analysis-Will-the-UN-resolution-help-spur-a-full-ICC-war-crimes-probe-476487
http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-confidant-we-will-take-hundreds-of-idf-soldiers-to-icc-this-year/

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 02:21:33 PM
Well you seem to be trying to corner everybody who says anything except "Yes" to your answer so your attitude is contradictory.
I am not cornering anyone. If you don't want to answer the question as asked that is fine. Don't answer it and don't twist what I an saying.
Here's another analogy for you - "Do you want to play ball?" "What type of ball? Basketball, baseball, football..." "Stop avoiding my question and answer, do you want to play, yes, or no?"
Your answer is yes. See how easy that was for about the 100th time.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 02:30:25 PM
As far as the resolution being toothless, there are reasons it may have sharper teeth than you realize as well as it being significantly worse that the resolutions previous presidents allowed to pass.
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 02:33:40 PM
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Once the underlying resolution is in place it is one giant leap closer. It is very reasonable to be upset about giving that ability.

There are many factors besides the settlements. Maybe the same thing being done over and over again is how the Palestinians are being shown how they can get more without needing to make concessions?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 02:41:52 PM
I am not cornering anyone. If you don't want to answer the question as asked that is fine. Don't answer it and don't twist what I an saying.Your answer is yes. See how easy that was for about the 100th time.

I don't quite follow. I didn't twist anything, I merely asked follow-up questions to your questions so I can better understand what you meant by your vague question and respond accordingly. You didn't respond to my questions and moved along fine until I made an analogy. Do you disagree with my analogy? If yes, say "That analogy does not accurately reflect my question" and explain why, but don't accuse me of twisting your words just because I don't want to answer a vague question with a one word answer. That's not twisting. It's called debating.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 02:42:25 PM
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Let me correct that:

"I am wrong, because as of right now international law and US policy has changed. One thing we know, is that when Israel *did* enact a settlement freeze for 10 months, Abbas still refused to even sit down at a negotiating table. Moreover, Palestinians officials have already stated that Kerry's framework is not acceptable, saying the issue is Israel's very right to exist [not settlement expansion]. Further, land concessions have resulted in more Israeli (and Palestinian) deaths, not peace.

"'Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' - Albert Einstein"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 02:43:28 PM
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

And one thing we know is that withdrawing from land has not resulted in peace. See: Gaza.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 02:45:11 PM
Once the underlying resolution is in place it is one giant leap closer. It is very reasonable to be upset about giving that ability.
One has every right to be upset. Just make sure it is not misplaced. Just about everything in this thread is anti-BO. He backs the largest military aid package for Israel and that is meaningless to most here. That doesn't sound like an enemy of Israel to me. How about to you or is that stupid question to?

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 02:45:42 PM
Do you all have me on speed dial?  :)

Do I need to clarify what all means for JJ?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 02:50:28 PM
One has every right to be upset. Just make sure it is not misplaced. Just about everything in this thread is anti-BO. He backs the largest military aid package for Israel and that is meaningless to most here. That doesn't sound like an enemy of Israel to me. How about to you or is that stupid question to?

With the incitement and violence that might erupt after the UN vote, they're going to need every penny of it and probably more.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 02:55:13 PM
With the incitement and violence that might erupt after the UN vote, they're going to need every penny of it and probably more.
Hopefully that won't happen. Is it possible you can answer the question I just asked? Does supporting the largest military aid package ever for Israel sound like something a enemy would do?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: A3 on December 29, 2016, 02:56:44 PM
For y'all's enjoyment.

Check out @DiamondandSilk's Tweet: ?s=09
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: yuneeq on December 29, 2016, 02:57:10 PM
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

The Israeli's also took many showers that never resulted in peace.
Also Israeli's ate many a pizza pie and that didn't result in peace.

I guess they must stop otherwise they are insane.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:01:36 PM
The Israeli's also took many showers that never resulted in peace.
Also Israeli's ate many a pizza pie and that didn't result in peace.

I guess they must stop otherwise they are insane.
That is some great analogies there.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 03:09:08 PM
Hopefully that won't happen. Is it possible you can answer the question I just asked? Does supporting the largest military aid package ever for Israel sound like something a enemy would do?

It's not meaningless. But when you see how this past week has unfolded, and you see that aid in the context of it being a phenomenal deal for the US defense industry, then maybe he is not as pro-Israel as $38b suggests.

With all the things going on internationally and domestically, the one thing he decides to go out with a bang with is Israeli settlements? Not exactly screaming "friend."

I, for one, don't think he or Kerry are "enemies" of Israel. I think they are trying to save Israel from itself (or at least its right wing governance.) I think they they are lashing out based on personal vendettas, and the result is foolish, misguided foreign policy that will harm Israel, not help her. The effect of their actions is "anti Israel," no matter their intentions.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 29, 2016, 03:13:42 PM
Big difference between Kerry's anti-Israel speech (yes you are reading that correctly) and Power's speech to the UN. You think Bibi's constant attacks had anything to do with it?

No. There have been many reports that this is the speech Kerry has wanted to give for the past 2 years.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:20:07 PM
Are these things a enemy of Israel does?

While past presidents since Harry Truman have rallied to the Israeli cause, none has provided greater material support than President Obama. Within weeks of taking office, Obama ordered the provision to Israel of more than 50 advanced “bunker buster” bombs that would be necessary were military action necessary against Iran’s nuclear program.  In providing the bunker busters to Israel, President Obama reversed the decision taken by his predecessor, George W. Bush.

Obama more than doubled American funding for the Israeli Missile defense system known as David’s Sling—in the last year of President Bush’s term, the U.S. committed $52 million to the program; this year, that number rose to $110 million.

And only under this president’s watch has another important air-defense system, called Iron Dome, received funding. President Obama’s $205 million commitment jump-started Iron Dome in 2011, and his Administration has promised that hundreds of millions more U.S. dollars are on their way to assist with this vital defense system. These and other Obama-backed defense measures protect Israeli citizens from the threats they face every day -– threats from Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists, and from the government or Iran itself.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 03:20:45 PM
Hopefully that won't happen. Is it possible you can answer the question I just asked? Does supporting the largest military aid package ever for Israel sound like something a enemy would do?

Here's your one word answer : No.

I don't think he's anti-Israel. He's anti-Bibi and his approach and he thinks that if Bibi won't listen to him nicely, then he'll get it done in the international arena. Sounds like an Abbas tactic to me...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:23:45 PM
It's not meaningless. But when you see how this past week has unfolded, and you see that aid in the context of it being a phenomenal deal for the US defense industry, then maybe he is not as pro-Israel as $38b suggests.
Get real here. It has pro-Israel written all over it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: since1492 on December 29, 2016, 03:26:35 PM
you can see he was totally trying to play tough love on Israel in the speech, but he did a bad job
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:27:22 PM
Here's your one word answer : No.

I don't think he's anti-Israel. He's anti-Bibi and his approach and he thinks that if Bibi won't listen to him nicely, then he'll get it done in the international arena. Sounds like an Abbas tactic to me...
THAN YOU for the one word answer!!!

I sure hope he is anti-Bibi after the constant anti-US attacks from him. Bibi has Israel's best interest in mind and BO has the US's.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: springles on December 29, 2016, 03:28:56 PM
That is some great analogies there.
I do not always disagree with you or your points in these political threads but I have to say that when I read the following post I thought the same thing as yuneeq
You could be right but as of right now nothing has changed. One thing we know for a fact is building more settlements has not resulted in peace.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
His analogies are to point out the silliness in connecting two facts as one being caused by the other. And you can say what you want but that post definitely implies that continuing to build settlements is insane because it has continuously not resulted in peace (I am not going to even say that it implies that building more settlements has impeded peace but one can easily argue that your post implied that too).  So to make that point yuneeq gave two other "facts" that did not result in peace. They are as meaningful as the one you gave, which is to say not meaningful at all.
I am not sure why I posted this because I am pretty sure you are aware of all this but still felt it needed to be said. You have often said that when you have good arguments and you choose to argue bad arguments then you take away from the good points that you can make. I think your above post can benefit from that lesson.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 03:29:34 PM
This is a letter from Obama in 2010:

"Thank you for expressing your concerns to my staff about our policies in the Middle East. Since we have known each other for a long time, I am sure you can distinguish between the noise and distortion about my views that have appeared recently, and the actual approach of my Administration toward the Middle East. For over 60 years, American Presidents have believed that pursuing peace between Arabs and Israelis is in the national security interests of the United States. I share that understanding and have made the pursuit of peace, including a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a top priority from my first day in office. I am deeply committed to fulfilling the important role the United States must play for peace to be realized, but I also recognize that in order for any agreement to endure,peace cannot be imposed from the outside; it must be negotiated directly by the leaders who are required to make the hard choices and compromises that take on history. We are determined to help them, particularly because the status quo does not serve the interests of Israel, the Palestinians, or the United States. As for our relations with Israel, let me be very clear: we have a special relationship with Israel and that will not change. Our countries are bound together by shared values, deep and interwoven connections, and mutual interests. Many of the same forces that threaten Israel also threaten the United States and our efforts to secure peace and stability in the Middle East. Our alliance with Israel serves our national security interests. As we continue to strive for lasting peace agreements between Israel, the Palestinians, and Israel’s neighbors, all sides should understand that our commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable and that no wedge will be driven between us. We will have our differences, but when we do, we will work to resolve them as close allies. I look forward to continuing our work together on behalf of peace.

I accept the letter as having been written in good faith. I cannot state that it restores my absolute good faith in the President. The unique trust that I and so many others, Christians and Jews, placed in him on the issue of supporting our close alliance with the Jewish state does not exist to the same extent, so I will look more to his actions than to his words. However, his letter is a start that I hope will be followed by concrete deeds."

Seems like a lot has changed in 6 years.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 03:29:59 PM
Get real here. It has pro-Israel written all over it.

You didn't quote my entire comment, most notably its conclusion.

I also think you are downplaying the nature of "stimulus" the aid provides to the US. Would you like links to read up on it?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:35:12 PM
His analogies are to point out the silliness in connecting two facts as one being caused by the other. And you can say what you want but that post definitely implies that continuing to build settlements is insane because it has continuously not resulted in peace (I am not going to even say that it implies that building more settlements has impeded peace but one can easily argue that your post implied that too).  So to make that point yuneeq gave two other "facts" that did not result in peace. They are as meaningful as the one you gave, which is to say not meaningful at all.
I am not sure why I posted this because I am pretty sure you are aware of all this but still felt it needed to be said. You have often said that when you have good arguments and you choose to argue bad arguments then you take away from the good points that you can make. I think your above post can benefit from that lesson.
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 03:35:23 PM
THAN YOU for the one word answer!!!

I sure hope he is anti-Bibi after the constant anti-US attacks from him. Bibi has Israel's best interest in mind and BO has the US's.

Ah. So now you must explain to us how that resolution was in the US interests. And then once you do that, explain why the US ABSTAINED instead of voting in favor of the resolution, to make it unanimous 15-0, and of course, to preserve American interests. Everything Kerry has been saying the last few days is indicative of someone who voted in favor of the resolution.

Abstaining is a "woos" move and absolutely shows who was really behind it. Don't kid yourself.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:36:48 PM
I also think you are downplaying the nature of "stimulus" the aid provides to the US. Would you like links to read up on it?
No need to provide links. Lets just get BO to do this for every country. Will that balance the budget?  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: springles on December 29, 2016, 03:39:55 PM
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
But Israel has stopping building settlements in the past and it didnt help at all, so I think both pizza and the settlements have the same effect on peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 29, 2016, 03:41:39 PM
THAN YOU for the one word answer!!!

I sure hope he is anti-Bibi after the constant anti-US attacks from him. Bibi has Israel's best interest in mind and BO has the US's.
How would vetoing it be a contradiction to US interests?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on December 29, 2016, 03:42:06 PM
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

every time we stopped building and/or gave land, then the terrorism got worse and created a mess of the peace process.

Giving has the opposite affect. They want it all: Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Netanya, etc...
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 29, 2016, 03:42:22 PM
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

Well we've shown that stopping settlement building for 10 months couldn't even bring Abbas to the table so I'm not really sure why you believe that stopping the settlements will help the peace process. It's all fine and dandy to say "settlements and peace" in the same sentence but when the other side is out to destroy you, literally, then I think it should be "violence/incitement and peace" in the same sentence WAY more often than settlements and peace.

If Abbas were to agree to stop with the incitement and promote peace with the Israelis, the Israelis would kiss his feet and give him half of Jerusalem (regardless of the current rhetoric). But you know what else would happen? Abbas would be dead if he ever promoted peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 03:42:50 PM
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

That is a fair claim, but please answer these (more than one word is ok):

1) When there were settlement freezes, it not only did not lead to peace, but Abbas refused to even negotiate. Would you include settlement freezes in your definition of insanity?
2) Israel has made land concessions, both bilaterally and unilaterally. In neither instance did it advance peace. Would you include land concessions in your aforementioned definition of insanity?
3) Kerry gave a long speech, the crux being that settlement expansion is obstructing peace. He laid out a vision for the future. Palestinians have rejected it outright. If a settlement freeze won't resume negotiations, in what way is settlement expansion impeding the peace process?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: springles on December 29, 2016, 03:44:09 PM
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
Here is a yes or no question for you.
Do you believe that if Israel stopped building settlements, in fact, moved out of all existing settlements and went to pre 1967 borders, there would be peace?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 03:52:25 PM
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 29, 2016, 04:43:21 PM
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)

I know you are coming from.a very different perspective than most people here, so please answer this;

How does not vetoing (and encouraging behind the scenes) this resolution further US interests?

Before you answer, think about this; is it in America's interest to stand by their allies?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 05:01:00 PM
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)
Perfect it will give you time to answer all the questions with a clear head.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 05:30:11 PM
Here is a yes or no question for you.
Do you believe that if Israel stopped building settlements, in fact, moved out of all existing settlements and went to pre 1967 borders, there would be peace?
No. If you want to know why I will be happy to say.  :)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 05:35:59 PM
I know you are coming from.a very different perspective than most people here, so please answer this;

How does not vetoing (and encouraging behind the scenes) this resolution further US interests?

Before you answer, think about this; is it in America's interest to stand by their allies?
Going in this order 1-3-2
1 - You think.  :)
3 - Yes but not blindly
2 - Need to leave out behind the scenes part until the Israel rep produces the "iron clad" evidence he claims to have. Otherwise known as put up or shut up. IMHO BO believes that a veto would be a green light to build more settlements that he feels hinders the peace process. It is in the US interest to have peace.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 05:58:06 PM
Going in this order 1-3-2
1 - You think.  :)
3 - Yes but not blindly
2 - Need to leave out behind the scenes part until the Israel rep produces the "iron clad" evidence he claims to have. Otherwise known as put up or shut up. IMHO BO believes that a veto would be a green light to build more settlements that he feels hinders the peace process. It is in the US interest to have peace.
The behind the scenes is backed up by egyptian leaks. Had the resolution been a simple condemnation and had not beed worded to make 67 borders that would be a good answer.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 05:59:58 PM
The behind the scenes is backed up by egyptian leaks.
That's the "iron clad" information?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 06:02:04 PM
That's the "iron clad" information?
No, but it is enough to not leave it out IMHO. I can understand their not revealing full intelligence.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 06:04:20 PM
No, but it is enough to not leave it out IMHO. I can understand their not revealing full intelligence.
Until they produce the "iron clad" it is all he said she said. With that being the case I will go with the US or a foreign governments version. How about you?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 06:22:40 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/c48f693e1e964a678fad4464202f3aa3.png)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 29, 2016, 06:24:18 PM
Did you hack my email.  >:(
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 29, 2016, 06:30:36 PM
Did you hack my email.  >:(
The egyptians leaked it.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 29, 2016, 08:00:00 PM
I think Hussein realized Trump was gonna be an awesome president and wanted to throw him some curve balls hoping he'll mess up. Israel, now Russia. Let's see how many more international problems he's gonna cause before leaving office. This is not to say that his last 8 years haven't been one giant wrecking ball.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on December 29, 2016, 08:39:06 PM
Until they produce the "iron clad" it is all he said she said. With that being the case I will go with the US or a foreign governments version. How about you?

There have been multiple reports in US, Egyptian, Ukrainian Israeli and other papers confirming reports that Biden pressured Ukraine and Kerry strategized with the Palestinians. When asked, Kerry's spokesperson denied that the meeting took place, and did not respond when confronted with his schedule, which confirmed that it did.

The stories are based on multiple sources in several different governments, including the Palestinians. Even the denials are very narrowly tailored in their wording.

If you still believe the Obama administration's story after reading those articles, I can offer you a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 29, 2016, 09:56:42 PM
OBAMA RATED 5th BEST PRESIDENT IN OUR HISTORY


From a total of 44 US Presidents: Obama is rated as the 5th best. The A&M's Public Relations Office released this statement "After 8 years in office, Americans have rated President Obama the 5th best President ever."

These are the details according to Texas A&M:

1. Reagan & Lincoln tied for first,

2. Twenty three presidents tied for second,

3. Seventeen other presidents tied for third,

4. Jimmy Carter came in fourth, and

5. Obama came in fifth.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 29, 2016, 10:02:50 PM
OBAMA RATED 5th BEST PRESIDENT IN OUR HISTORY


From a total of 44 US Presidents: Obama is rated as the 5th best. The A&M's Public Relations Office released this statement "After 8 years in office, Americans have rated President Obama the 5th best President ever."

These are the details according to Texas A&M:

1. Reagan & Lincoln tied for first,

2. Twenty three presidents tied for second,

3. Seventeen other presidents tied for third,

4. Jimmy Carter came in fourth, and

5. Obama came in fifth.
Aaaaaaaand we've started with whatsapp forwards.

/thread
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on December 29, 2016, 10:05:27 PM
Aaaaaaaand we've started with whatsapp forwards.

/thread
Is that also racist?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 29, 2016, 10:43:47 PM
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/uk-criticism-us-kerry/
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Dan on December 29, 2016, 10:58:01 PM
Worth the bump
http://www.theonion.com/article/man-who-couldnt-defeat-george-w-bush-attempting-to-33149
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: good sam on December 30, 2016, 12:26:56 AM
Obama and Kerry will not make peace between Israeli and Palestinian, but they have succeeded in making a temporary peace between the two major parties in Israel—itself a major accomplishment.


(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/d6f2390005ce3f2d9d85ffac27dcb379.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 01:02:09 AM
There have been multiple reports in US, Egyptian, Ukrainian Israeli and other papers confirming reports that Biden pressured Ukraine and Kerry strategized with the Palestinians. When asked, Kerry's spokesperson denied that the meeting took place, and did not respond when confronted with his schedule, which confirmed that it did.
Let me get this straight. Kerry is trying to broker a deal between Israel and Palestine and he met with Palestine? Why in the world would he do that?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 01:10:58 AM
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/uk-criticism-us-kerry/
I am going to guess you didn't post the article because of this: “We continue to believe that the construction of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is illegal, which is why we supported UN Security Council Resolution 2334 last week. But we are also clear that the settlements are far from the only problem in this conflict. In particular, the people of Israel deserve to live free from the threat of terrorism, with which they have had to cope for too long.”
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 01:33:52 AM
Here is the part you highlighted:
peace cannot be imposed from the outside
Here is from the speech Power's gave to the UN: "Unlike some on the UN Security Council, we do not believe that outside parties can impose a solution that has not been negotiated by the two parties."

BO position has not changed in 6 years. I suggest you go and read the full text of Power's speech and not listen to all the rhetoric.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on December 30, 2016, 02:15:53 AM
That is a fair claim, but please answer these (more than one word is ok):

1) When there were settlement freezes, it not only did not lead to peace, but Abbas refused to even negotiate. Would you include settlement freezes in your definition of insanity?
2) Israel has made land concessions, both bilaterally and unilaterally. In neither instance did it advance peace. Would you include land concessions in your aforementioned definition of insanity?
3) Kerry gave a long speech, the crux being that settlement expansion is obstructing peace. He laid out a vision for the future. Palestinians have rejected it outright. If a settlement freeze won't resume negotiations, in what way is settlement expansion impeding the peace process?



@JTZ please answer Yehuda57
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on December 30, 2016, 02:34:05 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/29/rep-kinzinger-memo-to-obama-and-kerry-need-israel.html
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 03:09:42 AM

@JTZ please answer Yehuda57
For 1 & 2 I would have to do some research first to see if the statements preceding the questions are accurate. I am pretty sure no matter what answer I post will be accepted.

#3 - Kerry's speech as I have said from the beginning IMHO was anti-Israel. Also its extreme negativity was fueled in part by Bibi's recent constant attacks on the US. I believe as does the rest of the civilized world that the settlements are wrong. Most believe it does not help the peace process. If this land is going to be part of the peace would it make it easier if it wasn't inhabited? Of course!

It is Friday so lets rap this up. My beef is the attacks on BO and the US. Bibi can condemn the resolution with out the attacks on BO/US. Labeling BO Muslim, anti-Israel or anti-Semite does not accomplish anything. Not acknowledging all the support he has shown towards Israel over the years only shows how blinded one is to the facts.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 30, 2016, 03:33:55 AM
For 1 & 2 I would have to do some research first to see if the statements preceding the questions are accurate. I am pretty sure no matter what answer I post will be accepted.

#3 - Kerry's speech as I have said from the beginning IMHO was anti-Israel. Also its extreme negativity was fueled in part by Bibi's recent constant attacks on the US. I believe as does the rest of the civilized world that the settlements are wrong. Most believe it does not help the peace process. If this land is going to be part of the peace would it make it easier if it wasn't inhabited? Of course!

It is Friday so lets rap this up. My beef is the attacks on BO and the US. Bibi can condemn the resolution with out the attacks on BO/US. Labeling BO Muslim, anti-Israel or anti-Semite does not accomplish anything. Not acknowledging all the support he has shown towards Israel over the years only shows how blinded one is to the facts.
I'm trying to pinpoint where our differences are.
1) Do you genuinely believe there is a possibility of peace from the PA side? Of living side by side like they do in half of Israel or as a separate state.

2) is it your opinion that we are moving even a smidgen more towards living in tranquility if we give up the "settlements"?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 03:48:13 AM
I'm trying to pinpoint where our differences are.
1) Do you genuinely believe there is a possibility of peace from the PA side? Of living side by side like they do in half of Israel or as a separate state.

2) is it your opinion that we are moving even a smidgen more towards living in tranquility if we give up the "settlements"?
1 - NO!!! You can't live in peace when a significant number will not recognize Israel's right to exist or wants to kill every last Jew. That has to change.

2 - I believe stopping the settlements will be seen by some PA's as a positive step. That will help the peace process but #1 has to be addressed.

If you look at my first couple of comments in this thread it has nothing to do with what we are talking about now. My beef was Trump sticking his nose where it didn't belong and then defending BO against being demonized because of the UN vote.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 30, 2016, 03:59:54 AM
1 - NO!!! You can't live in peace when a significant number will not recognize Israel's right to exist or wants to kill every last Jew. That has to change.

2 - I believe stopping the settlements will be seen by some PA's as a positive step. That will help the peace process but #1 has to be addressed.

If you look at my first couple of comments in this thread it has nothing to do with what we are talking about now. My beef was Trump sticking his nose where it didn't belong and then defending BO against being demonized because of the UN vote.
So that being said. So you agree that they don't want peace with Israel but that giving land may somehow be seen as a willingness to make peace when none is wanted. How do those work hand in hand? 2 is pointless as long as 1 exists and has been shown numerous times prior, 2 does not cause 1 or help in any way.
Do you truthfully believe that a people whose very mantra screams for the destruction of us ( I believe including you) by any and all means can be calmed by peace offering in this case?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 30, 2016, 06:36:17 AM
2 - I believe stopping the settlements will be seen by some PA's as a positive step. That will help the peace process but #1 has to be addressed.

Why do you believe that, if there is "iron-clad" evidence against it? For like the 5th time in this thread, see: Gaza.

They had a chance to show the world what land for peace can do. Not only did they not show the world anything, they made it into a missile launching ground, using it's children's schools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as missile warehouses!!!! You have not really responded when Gaza gets brought up. Right now its: Land for No Peace 1 - Land for Peace 0.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 07:16:06 AM
Do you truthfully believe that a people whose very mantra screams for the destruction of us ( I believe including you) by any and all means can be calmed by peace offering in this case?
Again I will answer your questions but this isn't what I have a problem with.

Do all PA's believe this? If so then all this discussion and any resolution is meaningless as there will never be peace. Is this where it is at?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on December 30, 2016, 07:22:51 AM


Again I will answer your questions but this isn't what I have a problem with.

Do all PA's believe this? If so then all this discussion and any resolution is meaningless as there will never be peace. Is this where it is at?

No. I have met countless ones that long for peace like me and you. But all the ones who actually make decisions or have the ability to influence others decisions are all corrupt. As much as I'm hopeful there is absolutely zero chance of change under the current leadership and community arrangements.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ExGingi on December 30, 2016, 07:28:04 AM
I am going to guess you didn't post the article because of this: “We continue to believe that the construction of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is illegal, which is why we supported UN Security Council Resolution 2334 last week. But we are also clear that the settlements are far from the only problem in this conflict. In particular, the people of Israel deserve to live free from the threat of terrorism, with which they have had to cope for too long.”
So please enlighten me: has the US never occupied territory it won in a war? How about the UK, or any of the other 14 nation-states that voted for this resolution?

This is all a result of brainwashing at best, but more likely hypocrisy (and possibly some antisemitism).

When did 1967 borders become gospel? Or for that matter Sykes-Picot?

Where does the arrogance to imply that outsiders can determine or impose borders or agreements come from?

History has shown that peace isn't achieved achieved by way of appeasement and concessions by the attacked party that won. The resolution of the US-Mexico war should be used as a model for lasting peace. We won the war and captured territory, it is now ours.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 08:02:45 AM
No. I have met countless ones that long for peace like me and you. But all the ones who actually make decisions or have the ability to influence others decisions are all corrupt. As much as I'm hopeful there is absolutely zero chance of change under the current leadership and community arrangements.
This is my belief also. Hopeful this makes it perfectly clear my position on this part of discussion.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 08:04:26 AM
So please enlighten me:
That is a quote by the UK from the article that was posted. Now you want me to speak for the UK?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ExGingi on December 30, 2016, 08:32:09 AM
That is a quote by the UK from the article that was posted. Now you want me to speak for the UK?
Not one bit. That would almost be as bad as what the French, Kerry, et al are trying to do.

I was pointing out that the entire UN, France, and now Lame Duck Obama regime approach is nothing but arrogant, paternalistic, and more than anything hypocritic.

I addressed you as I got the impression that some of the brainwashing has affected you too. The bottom line is that throughout history, borders were drawn as an outcome of wars. (Where did Sykes-Picot get any authority, if not by virtue of defeating the entity that ruled over those territories for CENTURIES?) Oh, and BTW when was the last (if any) time in history that there was an Arab state, or any other forms of polity, that was governed or centered in the territory at question, which Jews refer to as Eretz Yisroel, and others refer to as Palestine? (For the record as an anecdote, I have/had a few uncles that arrived in the US with Palestinian passports).

Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 30, 2016, 09:00:29 AM




It is Friday so lets rap this up. My beef is the attacks on BO and the US. Bibi can condemn the resolution with out the attacks on BO/US. Labeling BO Muslim, anti-Israel or anti-Semite does not accomplish anything. Not acknowledging all the support he has shown towards Israel over the years only shows how blinded one is to the facts.

This is more than fair. Labeling Obama Muslim, calling him by his middle name (when you don't do so for anyone else), smacks of racism (at the least).

I think anyone looking at this with an ounce of objectivity knows that this is more about Netanyahu than Obama. He has been driving Israel more and more right wing, and whether you personally agree with that or not, progressive Americans like Obama will certainly not take kindly to it. Statements like, "there will never be a Palestinian state" when your country's position is that there should be one (given the right deal) is going to tick off the Americans.

However, Kerry's anti Israel speech is Obama's policy. Obama's *policy* is now anti Israel. The resolution is far from toothless. And the overwhelming evidence is that it was created by the Obama administration. The lies have been many, the denials weak. They could have created an anti settlement resolution without the nods to bds, occupied Jerusalem etc. Samantha Power didn't even address those in her speech.

Sure, Obama may not feel he is anti Isreal, and not intend to be, but in his lame duck final month, he is trotting out a anti Israel policy which is radically new for the US. Bibi's provocation notwithstanding, it's infuriating to us.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: springles on December 30, 2016, 09:09:06 AM
This is my belief also. Hopeful this makes it perfectly clear my position on this part of discussion.
I think your position is becoming more clear to me. So you agree with most of us here that stopping the settlements and even leaving them will not lead to peace until there is a major change in leadership and philosophy on the Palestinian side. So then what was the point of the resolution from the US side? It doesnt promote peace. It just leads to the possibility that Israel can be punished for these settlements. Is that the behavior of a friend?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 09:37:09 AM
I think we are at a pretty good point in the discussion to end on.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2016, 11:29:10 AM
Let me get this straight. Kerry is trying to broker a deal between Israel and Palestine and he met with Palestine? Why in the world would he do that?
Fact check: False-Kerry is not currently trying to negotiate a peace deal between them. No way anything of the sort is happening within 4 weeks. That is why the whole thing is nothing more than a parting shot. If it was part of a larger path to a deal then I can hear an argument for this, but considering that this will not affect anything that the current administration will do in the region it was a slap for the slap's sake.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2016, 11:39:39 AM
I think your position is becoming more clear to me. So you agree with most of us here that stopping the settlements and even leaving them will not lead to peace until there is a major change in leadership and philosophy on the Palestinian side. So then what was the point of the resolution from the US side? It doesnt promote peace. It just leads to the possibility that Israel can be punished for these settlements. Is that the behavior of a friend?
That is why many here are considering it to be a slap for the slap's sake.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: good sam on December 30, 2016, 12:02:59 PM
I think we are at a pretty good point in the discussion to end on.
+1

I think everyone has made their positions clear.

Perhaps a wiki is in order.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2016, 12:06:19 PM
I think we are at a pretty good point in the discussion to end on.
"They found a jug of oil which had enough for 1 day and lit from it for 8 days"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on December 30, 2016, 12:26:33 PM
"They found a jug of oil which had enough for 1 day and lit from it for 8 days"

We still have 2 days left... Lets get some more fire  8)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on December 30, 2016, 03:16:13 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=48901.msg1635761#msg1635761
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2016, 07:24:31 PM
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international-affairs/312253-what-is-obamas-end-game-on-israel

Maybe after all he is Israel's best friend.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ilherman on January 01, 2017, 12:26:59 AM
@IsraelBreaking: JUST IN: Trump advisors asked Netanyahu to attend inauguration. Netanyahu talking about possibly going and/or meeting before. - ny post

This is going to be a LOT of fun..
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CS1 on January 02, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
@IsraelBreaking: JUST IN: Trump advisors asked Netanyahu to attend inauguration. Netanyahu talking about possibly going and/or meeting before. - ny post

This is going to be a LOT of fun..

wow. Hatikvah tunes would be an interesting mix, too.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2017, 01:00:37 AM
It sounds like Bibi is in some real trouble. That would really throw a wrench into this whole thing
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on January 03, 2017, 01:04:43 AM
It sounds like Bibi is in some real trouble. That would really throw a wrench into this whole thing
What happen?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2017, 01:08:40 AM
What happen?
He's being questioned for fraud. Israeli media is playing it up as very serious. Police not releasing details as to specifics
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on January 03, 2017, 01:16:31 AM
He's being questioned for fraud. Israeli media is playing it up as very serious. Police not releasing details as to specifics
Ouch!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: MeirS on January 03, 2017, 02:03:16 AM
It sounds like Bibi is in some real trouble. That would really throw a wrench into this whole thing
I lost count.
Isn't this the umpteenth time we're (he's) going through this?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Emkay on January 03, 2017, 02:09:53 AM
He's being questioned for fraud. Israeli media is playing it up as very serious. Police not releasing details as to specifics
Yea, that could be bad. In America if you're accused of fraud they give you the presidential nomination, in Israel they actually lock you up.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on January 03, 2017, 02:11:01 AM
He's being questioned for fraud. Israeli media is playing it up as very serious. Police not releasing details as to specifics

Ouch!

I don't think he's stupid enough to to it. In Israel over the last 5-10 years so many politicians have been charged with bribery..He has to be insane to do it.

Sharon,Olmert, katzev, leiberman...The list goes on..
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yammer on January 03, 2017, 02:12:01 AM
Yea, that could be bad. In America if your accused of fraud they give you the presidential nomination, in Israel they actually lock you up.
+1
A Clinton email scandal would look very different
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: MeirS on January 03, 2017, 02:17:23 AM
Yea, that could be bad. In America if you're accused of fraud they give you the presidential nomination, in Israel they actually lock you up.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=344.msg1638199.msg#1638199

Yuli Edelstein says that he's alright. Most Israeli politicians, first go into politics and then they do their time. He already did his time way before he got into politics so he's not going to end up that way.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on January 03, 2017, 03:11:41 AM
Yea, that could be bad. In America if you're accused of fraud they give elect you the presidential nomination, in Israel they actually lock you up.
FTFY
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: efflpetzel on January 03, 2017, 12:39:28 PM
He's being questioned for fraud. Israeli media is playing it up as very serious. Police not releasing details as to specifics
Same old story, if anyone's an expert at getting out of these investigations it's bibi, 

And also if you think the mainstream media in America has an agenda well just look to israel, it boggles the mind how they simply represent a minority of people there
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2017, 12:30:47 AM
Same old story, if anyone's an expert at getting out of these investigations it's bibi, 

And also if you think the mainstream media in America has an agenda well just look to israel, it boggles the mind how they simply represent a minority of people there
Israeli media are also known for fake news (though for some reason or another the entire country seems addicted to the media).

You can take any Israeli newspaper and be certain that close to 90% of what is printed in it is made up. Sometimes there's a small seed of truth, often not even that.

Unlike books, where I have 0 patience for fiction, as I don't really care about other people's imagination enough to be willing to spend hours reading, when it comes to Israeli newspapers or magazines, I read it knowing that it is mostly fiction, and for entertainment purposes only.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Deal Guy on January 04, 2017, 02:11:20 AM
Don't understand why they can't pass a law of no investigations of a sitting prime minister. They have enough on their plate to worry about.
The governments are constantly passing laws where they force the majority to vote with the coalition. So why can't they force down a bill of no fraud investigations on a sitting pm?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: jj1000 on January 04, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
Don't understand why they can't pass a law of no investigations of a sitting prime minister. They have enough on their plate to worry about.
The governments are constantly passing laws where they force the majority to vote with the coalition. So why can't they force down a bill of no fraud investigations on a sitting pm?
Checks and balances are good.

You don't want a PM who can take bribes and not face trial unless he losses office
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 04, 2017, 08:19:06 AM
Don't understand why they can't pass a law of no investigations of a sitting prime minister. They have enough on their plate to worry about.
The governments are constantly passing laws where they force the majority to vote with the coalition. So why can't they force down a bill of no fraud investigations on a sitting pm?
Lemme guess, big fan of Chavez, Castro, putin, etc? You should move to North Korea, they live that kinda attitude
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: CZ60 on January 04, 2017, 01:59:43 PM
Don't understand why they can't pass a law of no investigations of a sitting prime minister. They have enough on their plate to worry about.
The governments are constantly passing laws where they force the majority to vote with the coalition. So why can't they force down a bill of no fraud investigations on a sitting pm?

Wasn't aware that some people are above the law. That would be something wouldn't it? "Hey Barack! $10 Million if you let the keystone pipeline through" "15" "Fine"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Super Speed on January 04, 2017, 08:53:08 PM
Wasn't aware that some people are above the law. That would be something wouldn't it? "Hey Barack! $10 Million if you let the keystone pipeline through" "15" "Fine"
Sounds awfully familiar to someone who recently ran for president.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 05, 2017, 03:43:48 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-said-to-have-received-cigars-and-champagne-said-to-be-focus-of-netanyahu-fraud-probe/

Cigars and champagne?!?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: zh cohen on January 05, 2017, 03:55:27 PM
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-said-to-have-received-cigars-and-champagne-said-to-be-focus-of-netanyahu-fraud-probe/

Cigars and champagne?!?!?!?!?!

The article is not that clear. It seems to jump from "many thousands" to "hundreds of thousands"
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Am on January 15, 2017, 07:52:25 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/www.si.com/nba/2017/01/12/amare-stoudemire-israel-basketball-nba-hapoel-jerusalem%3Famp%3D1?client=safari
So does this mean that Amare is now an international war criminal?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: mgarfin on January 23, 2017, 04:43:27 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/us-sent-221-million-to-palestinians-in-obamas-last-hours/2017/01/23/a8e2caee-e1af-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html?utm_term=.f7fe110432d6
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on January 23, 2017, 07:18:20 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/us-sent-221-million-to-palestinians-in-obamas-last-hours/2017/01/23/a8e2caee-e1af-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html?utm_term=.f7fe110432d6
a real bush league move
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: gubevo18 on January 23, 2017, 07:21:10 PM
Or how about this....
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/)

And you thought Russia was the only one who mingles in foreign elections.
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: mgarfin on January 24, 2017, 09:04:40 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/us-sent-221-million-to-palestinians-in-obamas-last-hours/2017/01/23/a8e2caee-e1af-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html?utm_term=.f7fe110432d6
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/24/trump-reviewing-obamas-payment-palestinians/
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 25, 2017, 07:19:36 AM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/24/trump-reviewing-obamas-payment-palestinians/

Does anyone know how this works?  It was blocked by Congress till now and then suddenly it's not?
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 07:21:59 AM
Does anyone know how this works?  It was blocked by Congress till now and then suddenly it's not?
"Congressional holds are generally respected by the executive branch but are not legally binding after funds have been allocated."
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 25, 2017, 07:31:23 AM
"Congressional holds are generally respected by the executive branch but are not legally binding after funds have been allocated."
Ah, so he's disrespectful  ;)
Title: Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 07:32:57 AM
Ah, so he's disrespectful  ;)
:-X