Post by: chevron on March 06, 2020, 01:35:18 AM
When these events happen, they help me become aware of precautionary measure that can help overall.
I've seen many shulls not take soap seriously.
Many people won't use soap on Shabbat etc..
What has your shull done?
Post by: yuneeq on March 07, 2020, 09:25:32 PM
Post by: yitzgar on March 07, 2020, 09:30:23 PM
The 2 Lakewood shuls I go to have done absolutely nothing. Nothing in regards to awareness or better policies. Everyone shaking hands, no sanitizer to be found, no disinfecting commonly touched surfaces, no telling people that are sick or coughing to stay home. OTOH I heard in that in Brooklyn and Long Island they arent shaking hands and taking it far more seriously.Hand sanitizer I hear, but shaking hands is on the people, not the shul.
Post by: ckmk47 on March 07, 2020, 11:10:23 PM
Hand sanitizer I hear, but shaking hands is on the people, not the shul.By my husband, the Rov got up at kabolas Shabbos and said no handshaking.
Post by: yitzgar on March 07, 2020, 11:29:54 PM
By my husband, the Rov got up at kabolas Shabbos and said no handshaking.That's fine but I wouldn't have anything against a shul that doesn't announce it. It's up to people to take care of themselves if they are nervous.
Post by: yuneeq on March 08, 2020, 03:11:25 AM
Hand sanitizer I hear, but shaking hands is on the people, not the shul.
Doesnt matter what people want to do, the rabbi shouldnt allow it. Ignoring the people that are uninformed or selfish, think about how quickly the shul will get shut down when a member is confirmed to have the virus.
Post by: yitzgar on March 08, 2020, 08:35:11 AM
Doesnt matter what people want to do, the rabbi shouldnt allow it. Ignoring the people that are uninformed or selfish, think about how quickly the shul will get shut down when a member is confirmed to have the virus.The virus doesn't generate from shaking hands. Someone has to have it first, in which case the shul will be closed regardless.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 08, 2020, 10:08:18 AM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 08, 2020, 10:10:10 AM
The 2 Lakewood shuls I go to have done absolutely nothing. Nothing in regards to awareness or better policies. Everyone shaking hands, no sanitizer to be found, no disinfecting commonly touched surfaces, no telling people that are sick or coughing to stay home. OTOH I heard in that in Brooklyn and Long Island they arent shaking hands and taking it far more seriously.people wont take it seriously until it comes to their community, than it will hit home
Post by: yuneeq on March 08, 2020, 10:26:04 AM
The virus doesn't generate from shaking hands. Someone has to have it first, in which case the shul will be closed regardless.
Good point but I think a shul with 30 cases will be shut far longer than a shul with 1. Any rabbi has the right to decide if people shake hands in shul, look out for the uninformed...you dont like it pray elsewhere.
people wont take it seriously until it comes to their community, than it will hit home
Its in their community already, we just dont know about it yet...
Post by: avromie7 on March 08, 2020, 01:18:52 PM
Good point but I think a shul with 30 cases will be shut far longer than a shul with 1.In westchester it was just 1 person when they closed the shul.
Post by: Yonah on March 09, 2020, 01:50:54 PM
- Most of our Yeshivas (WDS, WTA, Lefell, Carmel, SAR) are now closed and operating virtually for at least the next week. (Some were already closed last week as well)
- Several Shuls in the Area - 1 in NR, 1 in Scarsdale, and 2 in White Plains (1 Orthodox, 1 conservative) have canceled davening for purim.
- I know for a fact that the NR shul has several confirmed cases, and the two White Plains shuls are sharing space while the orthodox shul is under construction, and there is at least one confirmed case. The scarsdale shul has enough overlap with NR/WP that there is likely to be a confirmed case already if not soon.
- AFAIK, all of those shuls are livestreaming megilla tonight and tomorrow
- The remaining shul in White Plains is also livestreaming the megilla, and is expecting to lain megilla outdoors in its parking lot. They have also recommended that people in High-risk situations not come to shul.
I was out of the country for a wedding in E"Y last week, my shabbos host had to ask about permission for me to attend davening on shabbos as the vaad of his shul prohibited visitors from outside Israel and anyone who'd been overseas from coming to shul. The Rav of that shul was not only adamant about hand-washing, but he also stood by the door and asked everyone walking in the door to purell their hands as he wished them good shabbos.
Post by: as2 on March 09, 2020, 02:21:06 PM
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 02:22:23 PM
Still not sure why people will take these precautions now, but not during flu season.
Still not sure why people are still comparing this to the flu
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 02:24:51 PM
Still not sure why people are still comparing this to the fluBecause it's very similar to the flu in many ways. It's really not all you're hyping it up to be. All the panic I'm seeing is a fear of the unknown.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 02:26:14 PM
Because it's very similar to the flu in many ways. It's really not all you're hyping it up to be. All the panic I'm seeing is a fear of the unknown.
Lol
Post by: as2 on March 09, 2020, 02:30:34 PM
LolElaborate. Why is this so much worse (or worse at all) and why is this attention not given to the flu?
Post by: Yonah on March 09, 2020, 02:32:21 PM
Still not sure why people will take these precautions now, but not during flu season.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/can-a-face-mask-stop-coronavirus-covid-19-facts-checked
The bottom line - we do take precautions in the flu season, including flu shots, which lowers (but doesn't eliminate) risk of getting the flu, and can also decrease the symptoms and length of the flu.
While more people die from the flu each year, significantly more people get the flu. I believe that the flu has a fatality rate of 0.1% - or if there was a shul that had 1000 people, 1 would die from the flu.
So far COVID19 has a fatality rate of about 3% - about 3500 fatalities on ~ 110K infections. So the same shul that has 1000 people - at least 30 would die from Corona - 30x more deadly than the regular flu. (Based on the shady accounting by some countries, scientists estimate that the actual fatality rate is more like 1% - but still 10x greater than the common flu).
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 02:32:29 PM
Elaborate. Why is this so much worse (or worse at all) and why is this attention not given to the flu?
How about we start backwards.
If it's just the flu, why is the entire world, starting with China, shutting down their economies?
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 02:34:42 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/can-a-face-mask-stop-coronavirus-covid-19-facts-checked
The bottom line - we do take precautions in the flu season, including flu shots, which lowers (but doesn't eliminate) risk of getting the flu, and can also decrease the symptoms and length of the flu.
While more people die from the flu each year, significantly more people get the flu. I believe that the flu has a fatality rate of 0.1% - or if there was a shul that had 1000 people, 1 would die from the flu.
So far COVID19 has a fatality rate of about 3% - about 3500 fatalities on ~ 110K infections. So the same shul that has 1000 people - at least 30 would die from Corona - 30x more deadly than the regular flu. (Based on the shady accounting by some countries, scientists estimate that the actual fatality rate is more like 1% - but still 10x greater than the common flu).
Let's add - none of these estimates take the hospitalization rate into account - already in Italy they are using triage to decide who gets treatment. Same happened in Wuhan, and will happen elsewhere.
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 02:37:00 PM
How about we start backwards.fear of the unknown. While it's not exactly the same as the flu, all this fear mongering doesn't do us any good.
If it's just the flu, why is the entire world, starting with China, shutting down their economies?
Post by: as2 on March 09, 2020, 02:40:08 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/can-a-face-mask-stop-coronavirus-covid-19-facts-checked (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/can-a-face-mask-stop-coronavirus-covid-19-facts-checked)I hear that. From what I'm seeing, the main reason we are trying contain this, and not the flu, is because there's actually a chance we can contain this. The death rate is higher, but with the number of cases there are way more fatalities from the flu as there are way more cases.
The bottom line - we do take precautions in the flu season, including flu shots, which lowers (but doesn't eliminate) risk of getting the flu, and can also decrease the symptoms and length of the flu.
While more people die from the flu each year, significantly more people get the flu. I believe that the flu has a fatality rate of 0.1% - or if there was a shul that had 1000 people, 1 would die from the flu.
So far COVID19 has a fatality rate of about 3% - about 3500 fatalities on ~ 110K infections. So the same shul that has 1000 people - at least 30 would die from Corona - 30x more deadly than the regular flu. (Based on the shady accounting by some countries, scientists estimate that the actual fatality rate is more like 1% - but still 10x greater than the common flu).
How about we start backwards.Precisely my question.
If it's just the flu, why is the entire world, starting with China, shutting down their economies?
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 02:54:49 PM
fear of the unknown. While it's not exactly the same as the flu, all this fear mongering doesn't do us any good.
Actually, there is no fear of the unknown. But there is fear of the known. It is known to be at least 10x more fatal than the flu. It is unknown if it is 30-40x worse than the flu. It is known to be far more contagious than the flu. It is known that 20x more patients are hospitalized vs the flu. It is known that there is no vaccine and no cure. It is known that there are not nearly enough hospital beds to treat a majority of the severely ill, or any person that gets sick at the wrong time. It is known that the incubation period makes it impossible to catch early. It is known that the summer weather is not going to fizzle it out. It is known that the US has very few test kits to track the spread. It is known that the US doesn't have enough PPE or proper procedures in place. It is known that containment is impossible without massive quarantines.
The only unknown that I am afraid of, and it scares me more and more each day - how long will it take the ignorant and uninformed to start taking it seriously - because only then will we be able to start creating effective measures in curtailing it. And the longer it takes, the more people will die.
Post by: yelped on March 09, 2020, 04:08:25 PM
It is known that the summer weather is not going to fizzle it out.Where did you see that?
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 04:40:51 PM
Where did you see that?
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/03/06/its-a-false-hope-coronavirus-will-disappear-in-the-summer-like-the-flu-who-says.html
Post by: yelped on March 09, 2020, 04:44:48 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/03/06/its-a-false-hope-coronavirus-will-disappear-in-the-summer-like-the-flu-who-says.htmlThanks. So they're not saying it's known that it won't dwindle in the summer. Just that we can't assume that.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 04:50:08 PM
Thanks. So they're not saying it's known that it won't dwindle in the summer. Just that we can't assume that.
From what I read and understand, studies show that they expect it to dwindle in the summer but it won't just fizzle out like the flu.
I think this article is a better read:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3074131/coronavirus-highly-sensitive-high-temperatures-dont-bank-summer
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 05:08:52 PM
From what I read and understand, studies show that they expect it to dwindle in the summer but it won't just fizzle out like the flu.As I said it's all unknown. Just like this is unknown, pretty much everything else you claim is known is actually very much unknown.
I think this article is a better read:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3074131/coronavirus-highly-sensitive-high-temperatures-dont-bank-summer
Post by: Ergel on March 09, 2020, 05:13:06 PM
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 05:14:08 PM
What is known is what is going on in Italian hospitals. And it's not prettyThat doesn't mean we should start making everything up and claiming it as fact.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:14:17 PM
As I said it's all unknown.
Not anything like you said. It is known that it doesn't just die in the summer, the study shows that. Keep burying your head in the sand. There is studies behind everything I wrote, but at least you have the President on your side. The actual numbers aren't set in stone but the range of variance is way beyond anything in the range of flu.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:15:24 PM
That doesn't mean we should start making everything up and claiming it as fact.
Like the fact that it's no worse than the flu? Lol
Will be funny (actually sad) to look back at your posts in a month or 2.
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2020, 05:17:36 PM
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:18:44 PM
Because it's very similar to the flu in many ways.
Let's hear all the facts.
How is this similar to the flu, with sources.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:20:05 PM
Is there 100% correlation between anti vaxxers and people downplaying COVID-19 after looking at Italy?
They're just doing it for attention. They're in cahoots with China and pretending they need hospital beds, doctors, respirators.
It's all FAKE NEWS!
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 05:27:35 PM
Let's hear all the facts.You're the one coming here claiming the world is coming to an end, but your first source actually says we don't know.
How is this similar to the flu, with sources.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:29:17 PM
Because it's very similar to the flu in many ways. It's really not all you're hyping it up to be. All the panic I'm seeing is a fear of the unknown.
Let's hear all the facts.
How is this similar to the flu, with sources.
Got your back
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 05:29:57 PM
You're the one coming here claiming the world is coming to an end
[Citation needed]
Post by: avromie7 on March 09, 2020, 05:33:21 PM
[Citation needed]just a few posts up
Actually, there is no fear of the unknown. But there is fear of the known. It is known to be at least 10x more fatal than the flu. It is unknown if it is 30-40x worse than the flu. It is known to be far more contagious than the flu. It is known that 20x more patients are hospitalized vs the flu. It is known that there is no vaccine and no cure. It is known that there are not nearly enough hospital beds to treat a majority of the severely ill, or any person that gets sick at the wrong time. It is known that the incubation period makes it impossible to catch early. It is known that the summer weather is not going to fizzle it out. It is known that the US has very few test kits to track the spread. It is known that the US doesn't have enough PPE or proper procedures in place. It is known that containment is impossible without massive quarantines.
The only unknown that I am afraid of, and it scares me more and more each day - how long will it take the ignorant and uninformed to start taking it seriously - because only then will we be able to start creating effective measures in curtailing it. And the longer it takes, the more people will die.
Post by: yuneeq on March 09, 2020, 06:10:10 PM
just a few posts up
I never said anything about the world coming to an end and will never say so. It's a serious pandemic that needs to be treated more seriously than the flu otherwise it will get more serious the more we delay. If you care about the old and immunocompromised people in your life, you'd be very concerned.
Now, I'm waiting for the flu similarities, with sources.
Post by: Joel on March 09, 2020, 06:39:35 PM
Post by: Ergel on March 10, 2020, 04:00:29 AM
Got your backDon't worry, he probably doesn't know that 50 million people died from Spanish Flu. So he doesn't need to worry
Post by: yuneeq on March 10, 2020, 08:21:21 AM
Don't worry, he probably doesn't know that 50 million people died from Spanish Flu. So he doesn't need to worry
Yeh but some estimates say 100m died, so no one really knows how deadly it was, its just fear of the unknown. Stop fear mongering.
Post by: User6669 on March 10, 2020, 11:22:35 AM
Post by: Yehudaa on March 10, 2020, 11:57:39 AM
Saw a few shuls took down the big towels near the sinks, and replaced them with towel paper. It's about time for that in general...
Yes, they say those towels are next to the sink so you can wash your hands after you dry them.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 10, 2020, 12:23:37 PM
Post by: ejb123 on March 10, 2020, 12:30:30 PM
Yes, they say those towels are next to the sink so you can wash your hands after you dry them.
Saw those hanging communal towels at a shmura matza factory a few years ago and wondered how the mashgiach allowed it (ignoring what the health department would say)...
Post by: Yonah on March 10, 2020, 02:13:16 PM
https://abc7ny.com/health/new-york-governor-orders-containment-zone-in-new-rochelle-national-guard-called-in/5999358/
Post by: Yard sale on March 11, 2020, 10:46:53 AM
Post by: yelped on March 11, 2020, 11:32:05 AM
Governor Cuomo is brining in the National Guard to put a containment zone in New Rochelle with a 1-mile radius of YINR. This includes most of the frum community that davens in that shul, as well as two conservative shuls - Temple Israel NR, and Beth El - but doesn't quite reach to neighboring shuls in Scarsdale or other parts of New RochelleI find it so strange that it basically started with the Frum Jews first in the US. Does anyone know yet how and where the lawyer who nebech has it got it from?
https://abc7ny.com/health/new-york-governor-orders-containment-zone-in-new-rochelle-national-guard-called-in/5999358/
Post by: Yonah on March 11, 2020, 12:00:39 PM
I find it so strange that it basically started with the Frum Jews first in the US. Does anyone know yet how and where the lawyer who nebech has it got it from?
I live two towns over. From what I understand, he got the virus most likely on a trip to Florida in mid February. He also attended a Bat Mitzvah and Levaya at his shul the weekend of 2/22-24.
Because of this, at least 3 local yeshivas were closed - SAR High School (where one of his kids go) and Westchester Day School and Westchester Torah Academy (both elementary schools that have a lot of kids from that shul - YINR).
Post by: yuneeq on March 11, 2020, 12:35:22 PM
I live two towns over. From what I understand, he got the virus most likely on a trip to Florida in mid February. He also attended a Bat Mitzvah and Levaya at his shul the weekend of 2/22-24.
Because of this, at least 3 local yeshivas were closed - SAR High School (where one of his kids go) and Westchester Day School and Westchester Torah Academy (both elementary schools that have a lot of kids from that shul - YINR).
He was in FL the weekend of Feb 15th, and started having symptoms shortly after on the 22nd. Id agree it was most likely from that trip.
Post by: yelped on March 11, 2020, 12:49:13 PM
Post by: Proisrael on March 11, 2020, 12:52:33 PM
I find it so strange that it basically started with the Frum Jews first in the US. Does anyone know yet how and where the lawyer who nebech has it got it from?
It started in NY from Frum Jews....plenty of people had it already in WA and CA before it got to NY.
We are special but not that special :)
Post by: avromie7 on March 11, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
Wow. Was there even confirmed cases in Florida at that time?It may have been somewhere on the way like the airport.
Post by: CS1 on March 11, 2020, 12:59:20 PM
Because of this, at least 3 local yeshivas were closed - SAR High School (where one of his kids go) and Westchester Day School and Westchester Torah Academy (both elementary schools that have a lot of kids from that shul - YINR).
Any updates from Monsey?
Any shul or school policies?
I am aware of a nursing home that is not allowing family visitors now.
Post by: Yonah on March 11, 2020, 01:04:24 PM
Any updates from Monsey?
Any shul or school policies?
I am aware of a nursing home that is not allowing family visitors now.
All I know from Monsey is that apparently there was a person (supposedly a waiter) who was infected that had worked a simcha at the atrium.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 11, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
Any updates from Monsey?which nursing home?
Any shul or school policies?
I am aware of a nursing home that is not allowing family visitors now.
Post by: Yonah on March 12, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
I believe most shuls in westchester are closed as well.
Post by: stooges44 on March 12, 2020, 03:47:34 PM
Thursday Afternoon, Parshas Ki Sisa.
Dear Parents,
The safety and security of our precious children has always been our highest priority, and that remains the case today as the world grapples with the outbreak of COVID-19, known as the Coronavirus.
Baruch Hashem, Yeshiva Darchei Torah has not had a single case of the disease. We daven that this should remain the case until the outbreak is over.
We have been engaged in discussions about this challenge for the last few weeks, and are taking all appropriate precautions throughout our campus.
When it came to scheduling the Mesivta's annual Purim chagigah, I consulted with four respected doctors - from branches of medicine as varied as pulmonology, infectious disease, and pediatrics - and their unanimous decision was to proceed with the event as usual, but to instruct the talmidim to be careful. I then asked Maran Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita for his Da'as Torah, and he advised us to proceed as planned.
There has been somewhat of a tumult of late about closing yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs on a broad scale. At an urgent telephone meeting today of the Vaad Roshei HaYeshiva of Torah Umesorah - a council comprised of the senior Gedolei Yisrael in America - this matter was discussed at length. On the phone were gedolim such as the Novominsker Rebbe, Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, Rav Aryeh Malkiel Kotler, and several other roshei yeshivos, including myself, in addition to a prominent doctor. A representative of Rav Dovid Feinstein was on the call as well, whose position conformed to the unanimous decision: that all yeshivos remain open, with proper precautions. (Torah Umesorah will be publishing a statement on this matter shortly.)
Here at Yeshiva Darchei Torah, we have been following the guidelines of the CDC and the New York State and New York City Departments of Health. Among many of the actions that we are taking on campus: All water fountains are being disconnected, so we encourage parents to send water bottles from home - which can be refilled from the regular sink faucets (our entire main building is filtered, as is the Mesivta). Purell dispensers have already been ordered and will be placed throughout the buildings.
On a personal note: I see no reason for a wholesale closure of yeshivos. (It goes without saying that any school dealing with a case of this virus is in a different category.) The public schools and most businesses are staying open - why should yeshivos close?
We urge you to keep any child who is not feeling well at home. We have also instructed all of our devoted staff members to be vigilant and to take off if they suspect that they may be ill.
The achrayus of the Torah learning and well-being of nearly 2500 talmidim weighs heavily on my mind, as it should for all mechanchim. As ma'aminim we know that the Torah learning of our children is the greatest form of protection for Klal Yisrael!
Let us remain vigilant, and let us redouble our tefillos, our learning, and our chesed.
My message is relevant to the current situation, and we will keep you posted with any significant updates.
Rabbi Yaakov Bender
Post by: Abebee on March 12, 2020, 03:49:31 PM
which nursing home?Fountainview not allowing visitors.
Post by: chevron on March 12, 2020, 03:50:45 PM
Post by: stooges44 on March 12, 2020, 03:54:18 PM
TORAH UMESORAH'S VAAD ROSHEI YESHIVA
IN REGARD TO HOW YESHIVOS AND DAY SCHOOLS SHOULD RESPOND TO THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC
We have been asked, in light of the pandemic spread of the terrible coronavirus, whether yeshivos and day schools should close down until the danger of infection has passed.
It is our opinion, at least as of now, and at least in cities or municipalities where public and private schools are not required to close, that yeshivos and day schools should remain open. The koach haTorah generated by tinokos shel bais rabban is inestimable, and is urgently needed in times like these.
The general consensus among health officials at this time appears to be that schools may remain open, as evidenced by the fact that most local health authorities have not at this point ordered the wholesale closing of schools, neither public schools nor private schools. We do not think that yeshivos and day schools need to hold themselves to a different standard than that determined appropriate for neighboring public or private schools.
Of course, yeshivos and day schools must do all in their power to minimize any risk of students or staff becoming infected by the coronavirus. Large gatherings should be avoided. Good hygienic habits must be observed. Schools should have local doctors with whom to consult as any issue may arise. Most importantly, children or adults who do not feel well or who have compromised immune systems should stay home.
Finally, in light of the extraordinary medical dangers posed by the coronavirus challenge, and the tremendous negative economic impact the spread of the virus is having on individuals and industries, we strongly urge all yeshivos and day schools to add special tefillos for rachamei Shomayim. The Gemara in Maseches Shevuos, 15b, refers to Tehillim 91 as "Shir shel paga'im" or "Shir shel nega'im" - a special tefilla for protection from such plagues. This is a tefilla especially fitting for today.
May the zchus of maintaining hevel pihem shel tinokos bais rabban even in these difficult times be a source of protection for all of Klal Yisroel.
Vaad Roshei Yeshiva of Torah Umesorah
ט"ז אדר, תש"פ- March 12, 2020
Post by: hvaces42 on March 12, 2020, 03:56:17 PM
Fountainview not allowing visitors.https://www.cms.gov/files/document/qso-20-14-nh-revised.pdf
Post by: Yonah on March 12, 2020, 05:08:32 PM
a) Confirmed cases of Corona - either students, staff and/or parents
b) Have been ordered or recommended by their local government/health dept. to close
To that point, I agree with Darchei/Torah U'mesorah's stance - we definitely need to take precautions in their schools before considering closing - i.e. no water fountains, purell, etc.- but I honestly think it's inevitable that they will need to close Yeshivos - it just might take another week or two.
We're fortunate in my kids schools that they have the opportunity to learn via video conference (both Limudei Kodesh and Chol). I am curious if other yeshivos have that capacity.
Take Darchei as an example - I think that the letter said that they have 2500 students. Do they even have the capacity? Are their rebbeim tech savvy enough? Do enough households have Internet and devices to make it feasible?
Post by: yuneeq on March 12, 2020, 05:25:14 PM
It is our opinion, at least as of now, and at least in cities or municipalities where public and private schools are not required to close, that yeshivos and day schools should remain open. The koach haTorah generated by tinokos shel bais rabban is inestimable, and is urgently needed in times like these.
The general consensus among health officials at this time appears to be that schools may remain open, as evidenced by the fact that most local health authorities have not at this point ordered the wholesale closing of schools, neither public schools nor private schools. We do not think that yeshivos and day schools need to hold themselves to a different standard than that determined appropriate for neighboring public or private schools.
It sounds nice, but it is ignoring the reality that frum people have been disproportionately affected, and our lifestyle naturally attributes to it. If the public school system had a similar outbreak they would all be shut.
Post by: avromie7 on March 12, 2020, 05:25:48 PM
To @stooges44 's posts from Torah U'Mesorah and R' Bender of Darchei - almost all of the shul's and schools that I've listed as being closed are all schools that have:It may be possible in Darchei, but it's definitely impossible in Lakewood.
a) Confirmed cases of Corona - either students, staff and/or parents
b) Have been ordered or recommended by their local government/health dept. to close
To that point, I agree with Darchei/Torah U'mesorah's stance - we definitely need to take precautions in their schools before considering closing - i.e. no water fountains, purell, etc.- but I honestly think it's inevitable that they will need to close Yeshivos - it just might take another week or two.
We're fortunate in my kids schools that they have the opportunity to learn via video conference (both Limudei Kodesh and Chol). I am curious if other yeshivos have that capacity.
Take Darchei as an example - I think that the letter said that they have 2500 students. Do they even have the capacity? Are their rebbeim tech savvy enough? Do enough households have Internet and devices to make it feasible?
Post by: mercaz1 on March 12, 2020, 05:27:13 PM
they can do teleconferencing
Post by: Yonah on March 12, 2020, 05:30:20 PM
they dont need to do video learning
they can do teleconferencing
Fair enough, but it's still a logistical nightmare - that works out to something like 60 conference calls daily (5 classes per 12 grades).
Post by: aygart on March 12, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
they dont need to do video learningHow many children can teleconference in a home at a time?
they can do teleconferencing
Post by: CountValentine on March 12, 2020, 06:09:13 PM
How many children can teleconference in a home at a time?How many TV's do they have? :)
Post by: Yonah on March 12, 2020, 07:30:01 PM
Understand that about half of the current confirmed cases in NY state are in Westchester county, and the vast majority of them are in the frum community.
Quote
Dear friends,
We write to you in unprecedented times that have brought great upheaval to the world around us, to our region and has hit the heart of our Jewish community, in a very real way. In fact, no community has, arguably, been impacted more (and, God willing, no one else will in the future) than our greater Westchester community. There are many people that have not only tested positive to COVID-19 in our collective communities, but there also several who are currently hospitalized in area hospitals and are in serious condition.
Therefore, due to the unknown and dangerous nature of this highly communicable disease, with the awareness that our hospitals are already filled with COVID-19 patients, and acknowledging that this is an ever-changing reality, we, the Orthodox Rabbis of Southern Westchester, have come together - for the protection and safety of our community so that it not spread further - and decided to adopt directives similar to those wisely adopted by the Rabbinical Council of Bergen County. These are our adapted directives that are in effect immediately and will remain in place, indefinitely, until further notice:
1. All community members are strongly encouraged to work from home, if possible, and to stay home whenever possible. It is critical for adults to set the right example.
2. As most schools are currently closed and many are in quarantine, we strongly discourage children having playdates with different families, even if they are not under quarantine. It also goes without saying, that it is against the law, against Halacha and a tremendous Chillul Hashem to allow children under quarantine to have playdates with other children, in their homes or at other homes.
3. Shuls will be closed for all minyanim and shiurim effective immediately until further notice. There should be no house minyanim. All of the rabbis will be davening alone in their own homes. Please daven at home, individually.
4. There should be no public celebrations for Semachot.
5. People should not have gatherings for Shabbat meals.
6. Shiva visits should be replaced by phone/video calls.
7. Funerals should be restricted to a small group of family members and a minyan.
8. Refrain from contact sports.
9. Restaurants should not seat customers. People should order for pick-up and delivery only. Please consider ordering from local Westchester eateries, as they depend on our business, especially at a difficult financial time for them like this one.
10. The Mikvaot will remain open, by appointment only (YIS is open; YINR TBD), at the guidance of the CDC and local health authorities. Both Mikvaot have been cleaned and sanitized appropriately. Women under quarantine or who are experiencing symptoms of illness, or have a family member whos tested positive for COVID-19, may not use the mikvah at this time. Please consult your Rav for further clarification or for specific questions.
We urge you to adhere to these directives until further notice. Of course, at this time, we should continue davening, learning and performing Mitzvot as much as we can - even if it is at home. And, with these merits, may Hashem send a Refuah Sheleimah to all of the Cholim of our County, our Country, in Israel and across the world.
Respectfully,
The Orthodox Rabbis of Southern Westchester:
Rabbi Yaakov Bienenfeld, Young Israel of Harrison
Rabbi Reuven Fink, Young Israel of New Rochelle
Rabbi Craig Glasser, Northeast Jewish Center
Rabbi Shmuel Greenberg, Young Israel of White Plains
Rabbi Evan Hoffman, Congregation Anshe Sholom
Rabbi Chaim Marder, Hebrew Institute of White Plains
Rabbi Jonathan Morgenstern, Young Israel of Scarsdale
Rabbi Daniel Rosenfelt, Fleetwood Synagogue
Rabbi Mitchell Serels, Magen David Sephardic Congregation
Post by: flatbush guy on March 12, 2020, 07:41:19 PM
Because it's very similar to the flu in many ways. It's really not all you're hyping it up to be. All the panic I'm seeing is a fear of the unknown.Wonder, whether u have changed your mind ?
Post by: chevron on March 13, 2020, 12:35:49 AM
Stop kissing the Torah!!!!
Wash hands with soap!! So many people don't do this on Shabbat even though shull soap is ok... I've been pushing my shull to hang up signs!
Stop shaking hands
Our shull cancelled kidushim untill further notice
Move daily minyan to large sanctuary to minimize exposure and contact
Mikvah?!? For chasidim this is a problem
There are endless reasons why our society is so at risk!
Post by: zale on March 13, 2020, 12:45:18 AM
Post by: grodnoking on March 13, 2020, 12:57:28 AM
A perhaps larger concern here is why people are spelling shull with a double L.Shul [shool]
Shull [shuhl]
Two different "havaros"
Post by: yungermanchik on March 13, 2020, 08:33:41 AM
Post by: gingyguy on March 13, 2020, 08:42:06 AM
Stop kissing the mezuzaSays who?
Stop kissing the Torah!!!!
Wash hands with soap!! So many people don't do this on Shabbat even though shull soap is ok... I've been pushing my shull to hang up signs!
Post by: stooges44 on March 13, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
Post by: mercaz1 on March 13, 2020, 10:42:10 AM
https://mailchi.mp/bknw.org/bknwcovid19rabbilebowitzmessage-462413
none of the other 5 towns shuls have cancelled yet
Post by: stooges44 on March 13, 2020, 11:08:45 AM
none of the other 5 towns shuls have cancelled yet
Looks like YINW also.
Post by: danR on March 13, 2020, 11:19:27 AM
The fear is we are two weeks behind Italy where there are no enough vent beds which is needed for people with pre existing conditions. And can take weeks for someone to recuperate. In Italy they do not have enough vent beds and doctors are forced to decide who lives and who does not. Extremely sobering
On the grounds of pikuach nefesh these measures were taken and not taken lightly
We need to remember saving one life trumps everything
Post by: Yonah on March 13, 2020, 12:05:59 PM
In a shul in unsdorf, yerushalayim, before megilla reading, the following announcement was made by the Rav: "if you are supposed to be in quarantine, and you came anyway to hear the megilla, the baal koreh has in mind NOT to be motzie you!"
What he should have said - "If you are in quarantine, and you've come to shul against the law, you have the din of a Rotzeach! Leave Now!
Post by: stooges44 on March 13, 2020, 12:13:12 PM
https://mailchi.mp/bknw.org/bknwcovid19rabbilebowitzmessage-462413
Update:
Dear Friends
Many Rabbis in our community spent several hours last night considering the question of our shuls remaining open during this tumultuous time. We examined the issue from the perspective of the expert doctors in the field of infectious diseases from our local hospital systems (who were present), our poskim (who were there throughout the duration of the meeting) and with the heavy responsibility of the welfare of every one of our dear mispallelim in mind. We are writing to inform you that we have made the excruciating decision that our shuls will be closed for all services, shiurim, classes, children's and adult's programming effective today, Friday, March 13th, until further notice. We recognize and respect the decision of other neighborhood shuls in taking a different course of action.
We recognize the importance of our institution to the lives of our members of all ages. It is heartbreaking for us to have to come to this difficult decision, and it was made after days and hours of very careful deliberation. New reports this morning concerning the nature of communal spread, have contributed to our painful decision.
Because the situation is fluid, we will reevaluate these decisions on a regular and on-going basis. We will communicate with you as changes take place. Please take these days as a critical opportunity to intensify your prayers that all those who are not well, will be healed and that our community will be shielded from any further harm.
Let us together rise to the challenge of these difficult times and ensure that the most vulnerable in our community are well looked after and taken care of. Let us all actively pray for a speedy resolution to this pandemic.
We must try our best to stay home with only our immediate family and avoid unnecessary contact with others, and particularly avoid contact with substantial groups. We should only leave home when it is truly necessary. Thus:
We implore our members not to attend other minyanim and not form private minyanim in households. This will undermine our communal effort to stop the spread of coronavirus. Our Rabbis will lead by example and daven alone in their private homes.
All community members are strongly encouraged to work from home, if possible, and to stay home whenever possible.
People should not have gatherings for Shabbos meals.
We recommend our members use restaurants for take out only.
Sick and Shivah visits should be conducted by telephone or video calls. Shiva minyanim will not be meeting. The Avel should try to arrange for someone to recite kaddish on their behalf.
Funerals should be restricted to a graveside service with a small group of family members and a minyan.
We recommend minimizing Smachos to family and small amounts of guests and not attending large Smachos. Weddings (kiddushin) should not be canceled. The party should be limited or planned for a later date.
While the local Mikvaos will remain open, women under mandatory quarantine or who are experiencing symptoms may not use the Mikvah. Please feel free to call with any questions.
As you can see, these represent significant changes to our lives and many detailed questions will certainly emerge. The brief outline above cannot guide every particular situation. We will have to address each circumstance as it comes up based on professional expertise and religious guidance.
We recommend everyone take in Shabbos at least 5 minutes early this week and say Tehillim 91 and 142 as a zechus for our protection.
It is our deep and sincere hope that this unparalleled decision brings safety and health to our community. We are closing because social distancing is critical to preventing the spread of COVID-19. We urge all of you to do what you can to prevent the spread of this disease. Older individuals and those with underlying medical conditions should remain at home. Everyone should continue to vigorously wash hands with soap, and cover properly while sneezing and coughing.
It is our hope and prayer that our physical distance from one another will ultimately bind us to each other in our hearts, and inspire us to better appreciate the spiritual bond that we share.
We pray for a speedy recovery for all who are not well, and continued strength and vitality, spiritual and material success for all.
Wishing you a Shabbos of good health, introspection and happiness!
Rabbi Shalom Axelrod, Young Israel of Woodmere
Rabbi Hershelshy Billet, Young Israel of Woodmere
Rabbi Aaron Feigenbaum, Irving Place Minyan
Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt, Young Israel of Woodmere
Rabbi Kenneth Hain, Congregation Beth Sholom
Rabbi Simcha Hopkovitz, Young Israel of Hewlett
Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz, Beis HaKnesses of North Woodmere
Rabbi Avi Miller, Congregation Beth Sholom
Rabbi Yehuda Septimus, Young israel of North Woodmere
Rabbi Shay Schachter, Young Israel of Woodmere
Rabbi Moshe Teitelbaum, Young Israel of Lawrence Cedarhurst
Rabbi Yaakov Trump, Young Israel of Lawrence Cedarhurst
Rabbi Eliyahu Wolf, Young Israel of Woodmere
Rabbi Akiva Willig, Beis Medrash of Woodmere
Post by: skyguy918 on March 13, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 12:59:59 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0nZ4LS/E581-AE07-6-CB0-4-FED-B8-F7-0640-B371-F012.png) (https://ibb.co/Y0nZ4LS)
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 01:01:39 PM
Creative. These gloves were given out at a wedding and everyone wore them for dancing....and that protects everyone from airborne particles how. CANCEL THE DAMN CELEBRATION!!!
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0nZ4LS/E581-AE07-6-CB0-4-FED-B8-F7-0640-B371-F012.png) (https://ibb.co/Y0nZ4LS)
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 01:06:34 PM
...and that protects everyone from airborne particles how. CANCEL THE DAMN CELEBRATION!!!Ill tell the State government to consult you next time for gatherings restrictions...
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 01:10:05 PM
Ill tell the State government to consult you next time for gatherings restrictions...How about one consult their own common sense. ::)
I guess Jews treating Jews better than others means giving them the virus?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
How about one consult their own common sense. ::)not sure where your coming from but I dont think its your place to tell people to cancel their weddings. Anyone who wishes to not attend is entitled to do just that. States government limits to how many people can attend events.
I guess Jews treating Jews better than others means giving them the virus?
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 01:43:40 PM
not sure where your coming from but I dont think its your place to tell people to cancel their weddings. Anyone who wishes to not attend is entitled to do just that. States government limits to how many people can attend events.They are entitled to attend the weddings just as I am entitled to say they are selfish and reckless for doing so. We all know more than limits are needed and we all need to do our part.
Post by: Yef on March 13, 2020, 02:29:53 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on March 13, 2020, 02:42:41 PM
I was really enjoying these forums until this count valentine dude came back. He ruins every conversation with his crum hashkofos and drivel.
Just tune him out
Post by: shwarmabob on March 13, 2020, 02:49:34 PM
I was really enjoying these forums until this count valentine dude came back. He ruins every conversation with his crum hashkofos and drivel.try not to get personal. Many were missing him already ;D It's good to have people with different viewpoints.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2020, 03:16:51 PM
Post by: Yef on March 13, 2020, 03:23:24 PM
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 03:25:55 PM
I would actually love to do that. Please let me know how to block someone. Everyone else just keep getting a hashkafa not online with yiddishkeit vomited out to you every second, because its so important to hear different perspectivesProfile>Buddies/Ignore List>Edit Ignore List>Member:CountValentine>Add
Post by: yungermanchik on March 13, 2020, 03:26:23 PM
I would actually love to do that. Please let me know how to block someone. Everyone else just keep getting a hashkafa not online with yiddishkeit vomited out to you every second, because its so important to hear different perspectivestry this: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;sa=ignore;u=32038
Post by: moko on March 13, 2020, 03:35:23 PM
...and that protects everyone from airborne particles how. CANCEL THE DAMN CELEBRATION!!!says the man who's wife tried going to a crowded market today
DW just went on her regular shopping trip. Could not find a spot to park in a massive parking lot. ::)stay home. Order online. Unless of course course she's just a selfish Jew who needs her regular routine
It seems everyone has their version of what they believe is right or wrong and if you do anything different your either crazy or selfish
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 03:40:05 PM
It seems everyone has their version of what they believe is right or wrong and if you do anything different your either crazy or selfishNope you can have your opinion just like me. If you think going out to get food for your family and going out to party/celebration is the same then so be it.
Post by: moko on March 13, 2020, 03:49:30 PM
Nope you can have your opinion just like me. If you think going out to get food for your family and going out to party/celebration is the same then so be it.I don't think it's the same but there are other options and yet you chose what you believed to be more convenient ( I presume- could be wrong) not necessarily the safest option
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 03:52:50 PM
I don't think it's the same but there are other options and yet you chose what you believed to be more convenient ( I presume- could be wrong) not necessarily the safest optionI didn't choose anything. Your beef is with my wife, she is one that went out to get me crab legs for dinner. No meat today during Easter. :)
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 13, 2020, 04:09:01 PM
Post by: TimT on March 13, 2020, 04:26:06 PM
Mikvah?!? For chasidim this is a problemAs a gathering place or it can be passed through water ?
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 13, 2020, 04:29:51 PM
As a gathering place or it can be passed through water ?
Not sure the actual Mikva is a problem (chlorine goes a long way) as much as in the room before and after.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 04:38:29 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/j4gVsCy/DE183-F9-A-34-B8-4441-B94-B-CFB8-D52-C8-F9-B.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 04:48:02 PM
Nope you can have your opinion just like me. If you think going out to get food for your family and going out to party/celebration is the same then so be it.Not an opinion. Matter of Jewish law. Sorry.
Post by: aygart on March 13, 2020, 04:50:57 PM
Not an opinion. Matter of Jewish law. Sorry.Source?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 04:52:30 PM
Source?source for what? I havent said anything other that this is a matter of Jewish Law
Post by: TimT on March 13, 2020, 04:54:13 PM
Anyone see this?Just about everyone
(https://i.ibb.co/j4gVsCy/DE183-F9-A-34-B8-4441-B94-B-CFB8-D52-C8-F9-B.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Post by: yungermanchik on March 13, 2020, 04:56:12 PM
Anyone see this?
(https://i.ibb.co/j4gVsCy/DE183-F9-A-34-B8-4441-B94-B-CFB8-D52-C8-F9-B.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
from YWN
The following letter was written by Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita regarding protection from the Corona Pandemic. It was translated and annotated by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for the 5TJT.com.
Rav Kanievskys words are in boldface. Rabbi Yair Hoffmans additions are in italics and in plain type. Rabbi Hoffmans additions are the background that is necessary to understand Rav Chaims words. May we all have yeshuos. YH
BSD
Adar 5780
Regarding the concern of transmission of the Corona Virus Pandemic
Everyone must be mechazek to refrain from Lashon Harah and rechilus as it states in Arachin 15b: [Why is a leper so different, that the Torah states: He shall dwell alone; outside of the camp shall be his dwelling (Vayikrah 13:46)? He (Rabbi Chaninah) answered: By speaking badly] he separated between a husband and wife and between one person and another; therefore he is punished with tzaraas, and the Torah says: He shall dwell alone; outside of the camp shall be his dwelling.
They must further strengthen themselves in the midah of humility and to be maavir al midosav as the pirush haRosh on the side of the page says explicitly in the end of Horios [14a],
The Gemorah there cites a debate between Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and the chachomim as to who is preferable a Sinai, one who is extremely knowledgeable or an Okair Harim One who uproots mountains, one who is extremely sharp.
The Gemara explains that this is not just theoretical. Rav Yosef was a Sinai; Rabba was one who uproots mountains. They sent a message from Bavel to Eretz Yisrael: Which takes precedence? They sent in response: Sinai is preferable, as the Master said: Everyone requires the owner of the wheat, i.e., one who is expert in the sources. And even so, Rav Yosef did not accept upon himself the appointment of head of the yeshiva. Rabba did accept it upon himself and he reigned for twenty-two years, and then Rav Yosef reigned. The Gemara relates that in all of those years that Rabba was in charge, Rav Yosef did not even call a bloodletter to his home. Rav Yosef did not assume even the slightest authority, in deference to Rabba.
The Rosh explains in the name of the Ramah that since Rav Yosef lowered himself and did not wish to lord over Rabbah, his humility protected both him and his household members that not any of them became ill all of those years that Rabbah ruled and even an expert bloodletter was not needed to be called to his home.
Whoever strengthens himself in these the merit will protect him and his family members that not one of them will be sick.
[Rav] Chaim Kanievsky
Post by: aygart on March 13, 2020, 04:57:25 PM
source for what? I havent said anything other that this is a matter of Jewish LawThat going to a wedding at risk of health is the same as going to get food? What is your source in Jewish Law that they are the same? Am i misunderstanding you?
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 04:59:01 PM
Not an opinion. Matter of Jewish law. Sorry.What is a matter of Jewish law?
Post by: Dan on March 13, 2020, 05:00:35 PM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:01:25 PM
That going to a wedding at risk of health is the same as going to get food? What is your source in Jewish Law that they are the same? Am i misunderstanding you?Yes you are misunderstanding me. My point is, the question of going to a wedding in this circumstance is not something someone with zero knowledge or understanding of Jewish Law should have any authority to attempt to make any call on.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:01:58 PM
What is a matter of Jewish law?going to a wedding
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:04:03 PM
going to a weddingSorry I am clueless what Jewish law requires about weddings. Who must go? Must there be a public celebration with a large group?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:05:10 PM
Sorry I am clueless what Jewish law requires about weddings. Who must go? Must there be a public celebration with a large group?exactly my point. And like everything else in Jewish Law, its not simple to answer lol
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:07:25 PM
Interesting. Rabbeinu Yonah adds that performing this mitzvah protects one from yissurin, pain (Sharei Teshuva 4:11).
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:07:55 PM
exactly my point. And like everything else in Jewish Law, its not simple to answer lolThen help me out. If Jewish law requires a large celebration or any celebration after the wedding then my opinion would change. Isn't that a good thing?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:09:26 PM
Then help me out. If Jewish law requires a large celebration or any celebration after the wedding then my opinion would change. Isn't that a good thing?your opinion changing is neither good or bad. Its just that. Your opinion. Situations like these are an example of what many Jews engage in learning and analyzing Jewish Law. E.G. Does the mitzvah of going to a wedding override the inherent possible danger of health in doing so or not. Its definitely something to be looked at in depth but only with knowledge of the facts pertaining to this question.
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:11:48 PM
your opinion changing is neither good or bad. Its just that. Your opinion.It is not a good thing if a non-Jew understands more (no matter how small) about Jewish law/rules/life?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 13, 2020, 05:14:07 PM
It is not a good thing if a non-Jew understands more (no matter how small) about Jewish law/rules/life?good in what sense? If good will come out of it, I presume it is a good thing.
Post by: aygart on March 13, 2020, 05:15:25 PM
your opinion changing is neither good or bad. Its just that. Your opinion. Situations like these are an example of what many Jews engage in learning and analyzing Jewish Law. E.G. Does the mitzvah of going to a wedding override the inherent possible danger of health in doing so or not. Its definitely something to be looked at in depth but only with knowledge of the facts pertaining to this question.I am not sure what the 2 sides to the supposed question are.
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
good in what sense? If good will come out of it, I presume it is a good thing.I feel it is always good if someone understands where the other person is coming from.
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:18:42 PM
I am not sure what the 2 sides to the supposed question are.1 - it overrides it
2 - it doesn't override it.
Have no idea what the answer is but wouldn't that be the two sides?
Post by: cmey on March 13, 2020, 05:18:56 PM
Post by: CountValentine on March 13, 2020, 05:21:28 PM
Post by: yitzgar on March 13, 2020, 05:32:22 PM
Shuls in CLE are either closing or asking women and kids to daven at home.Which ones are closing?
Post by: Dan on March 13, 2020, 05:36:18 PM
Which ones are closing?I don't have a full list.
I saw GRS and BK are closed and Chabad and our breakaway Chabad are asking women and kids to daven at home.
Feel free to post others.
Post by: TimT on March 13, 2020, 05:39:14 PM
Chabad and our breakaway Chabad are asking women and kids to daven at home.Is it in order to move half the men there ?
Post by: yuneeq on March 13, 2020, 05:39:50 PM
Post by: yitzgar on March 13, 2020, 05:42:19 PM
I don't have a full list.Bk?
I saw GRS and BK are closed and Chabad and our breakaway Chabad are asking women and kids to daven at home.
Feel free to post others.
Post by: Dan on March 13, 2020, 05:43:03 PM
Bk?Beachwood Kehila.
Post by: yitzgar on March 13, 2020, 05:43:10 PM
I don't have a full list.Zaz is splitting minyan into 2
I saw GRS and BK are closed and Chabad and our breakaway Chabad are asking women and kids to daven at home.
Feel free to post others.
Post by: Jellybelly on March 13, 2020, 05:57:09 PM
Can't verify this is legit (don't see it on TLS site), but if real, it is quite perplexing.Whats perplexing about it?
Seems like theyre trying to be cautious without telling anyone not to come to shul
Post by: cmey on March 13, 2020, 06:00:17 PM
Post by: Yikes2179 on March 13, 2020, 06:00:51 PM
Post by: momo on March 13, 2020, 06:01:35 PM
All Far Rockaway shuls closes as per psak of Rav Dovid FeinsteinNot all. Sulitz is open. Members only. Horowitz in Lawrence is open as well.
Post by: yuneeq on March 13, 2020, 06:03:42 PM
Whats perplexing about it?
Seems like theyre trying to be cautious without telling anyone not to come to shul
Verified that it was on TLS status.
1. Someone that suspects they have the virus should go to shul?
2. The most common symptoms arent listed - dry cough, shortness of breath.
3. A non-symptom is listed first.
Post by: cmey on March 13, 2020, 06:10:40 PM
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 13, 2020, 06:28:42 PM
There is a VERY wide gap between Lakewood and the others. Shuls are wide open and people are still making kidushes and Shalom zachors like usual...
I defer to da'as taroah when it comes to psak, so I will not state my opinion. However it is worth noting that Lakewood has also yet to a have a single confirmed case. We will see how long that lasts, however until then i would be surprised if anything changes.
Post by: flyingace on March 13, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
Post by: chevron on March 14, 2020, 08:47:07 PM
I defer to da'as taroah when it comes to psak, so I will not state my opinion. However it is worth noting that Lakewood has also yet to a have a single confirmed case. We will see how long that lasts, however until then i would be surprised if anything changes.
That's only because they don't eat Chinese food 🙄
It's a global pandemic It's going to reach them within a couple of days.
If anything that by exercising caution and precautions they could avoid this but they're not!!
I have been implementing extreme cautions in my shull for 3 weeks now, this In Miami.
As of Friday, known members only, required hand sanitizer when entering building..
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2020, 10:00:31 PM
We will see how long that lasts, however until then i would be surprised if anything changes.
The TLS actually just updated it after shabbos and it's better now but not great. Makes me wonder who is involved in putting out this notice in the first place.
Post by: CountValentine on March 14, 2020, 10:02:52 PM
The TLS actually just updated it after shabbos and it's better now but not perfect. Makes me wonder who is involved in putting out this notice in the first place.If they are showing signs they should self quarantine.
Post by: yesitsme on March 14, 2020, 10:09:29 PM
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 14, 2020, 10:16:43 PM
Heard from a friend in West Hempstead that shuls will close down there as well.I know someone who had recently returned from Italy and developed a cough and fever. A few of his kids had fever too, and THEY DID NOT GO TO THE DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO QUARANTINE. Highly irresponsible. Extremely selfish as there are many many people who this virus can be deadly for. His claim was that its no big deal, his family all recovered from it, and they did not get very sick. People need to realize that this is not about you. Its about all other people you are potentially KILLING because you did not want to quarantine. Sickening.
What he should have said - "If you are in quarantine, and you've come to shul against the law, you have the din of a Rotzeach! Leave Now!
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
Didn't look like anyone was taking things too seriously. Kiddushim were held, no increased availability of tissues and paper towels.
Post by: Onefishtwofishredfishblue on March 14, 2020, 10:35:26 PM
770 posted signs before Shabbos that occupancy will be limited to 500 people. However I no one seemed to be checking for פרשנדתא and beyond. It was definitely less crowded and main minyan was moved to 9:30am so a second "main" Minyan could take place.
Didn't look like anyone was taking things too seriously. Kiddushim were held, no increased availability of tissues and paper towels.
Honestly downstairs 770 hasn't had soap or paper towels in weeks during the weekdays. As a daily davener I'm honestly disgusted about the managements response. Honestly the health department should close it until someone takes proper charge. PS. To be clear I'm not a benshimon fan at all.
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2020, 10:51:26 PM
Honestly downstairs 770 hasn't had soap or paper towels in weeks during the weekdays. As a daily davener I'm honestly disgusted about the managements response. Honestly the health department should close it until someone takes proper charge. PS. To be clear I'm not a benshimon fan at all.
I guess you are one of the צדיקים דומין לבוראן. And therefore אלף שנים בעיניך כיום אתמול כי יעבור. AFAIK it has been several years since they made paper towels available during weekdays (with a few exceptions).
Post by: googwallet on March 14, 2020, 10:57:55 PM
The TLS actually just updated it after shabbos and it's better now but not perfect. Makes me wonder who is involved in putting out this notice in the first place.This is truly unbelievable. People with symptoms should "try" to davin with a smaller minyan and "try" to stay 6 feet away from others? This is simply irresponsible to a whole new degree.
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2020, 11:07:23 PM
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2020, 11:37:48 PM
The TLS actually just updated it after shabbos and it's better now but not great. Makes me wonder who is involved in putting out this notice in the first place.This does not look like the typical letter they put out.
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2020, 12:48:41 AM
I guess you are one of the צדיקים דומין לבוראן. And therefore אלף שנים בעיניך כיום אתמול כי יעבור. AFAIK it has been several years since they made paper towels available during weekdays (with a few exceptions).
Stay home
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 15, 2020, 02:47:13 AM
People should be Machmir on Pikach Nefesh.
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2020, 03:05:41 AM
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר שְׁמוּאֵ֗ל הַחֵ֤פֶץ לַֽיהֹוָה֙ בְּעֹל֣וֹת וּזְבָחִ֔ים כִּשְׁמֹ֖עַ בְּק֣וֹל יְהֹוָ֑ה
People should be Machmir on Pikach Nefesh.
Not if it infringes on their frumkeit 🤦♂️🙄
Post by: moko on March 15, 2020, 06:04:55 AM
Post by: good sam on March 15, 2020, 06:13:00 AM
I don't understand why they didn't establish a ta'anis tzibur. If it's a dire enough mageifah to close shuls and schools, it would seem clear cut to warrant a ta'anis tziburBeing quarantined at home AND not eating is a recipe for disaster
Post by: cmey on March 15, 2020, 06:21:10 AM
I don't understand why they didn't establish a ta'anis tzibur. If it's a dire enough mageifah to close shuls and schools, it would seem clear cut to warrant a ta'anis tzibur
Not a good idea as mentioned but they should enact the equivalent: eating meat, drinking wine, luxury food items, fine dining, etc.
I dont think the full import of this has registered yet and that is part of the issue.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 15, 2020, 08:01:15 AM
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2020, 09:46:23 AM
I don't understand why they didn't establish a ta'anis tzibur. If it's a dire enough mageifah to close shuls and schools, it would seem clear cut to warrant a ta'anis tziburWe have not met the guidlines of the gemara in taanis
Post by: Eliyohu on March 15, 2020, 09:52:17 AM
The TLS actually just updated it after shabbos and it's better now but not great. Makes me wonder who is involved in putting out this notice in the first place.I just got a bit of clarification, that there was an emergency meeting right before Shabbos. And someone on behalf of the Roshie Yeshiva, quickly typed up a sign to hang up, basically just acknowledging that a meeting taken place and there were discussions held. It was not done by the actual Yeshiva, The person supposedly wasn't giving much instructions what to write, and clearly didn't use any common sense.
Post by: Eliyohu on March 15, 2020, 10:22:35 AM
Post by: Moshe123 on March 15, 2020, 12:01:08 PM
Dear Mispallelim,
I was unfortunately just informed that Two of our members were exposed on Purim to an individual that has tested positive for the virus, COVID-19. Both members Davened all the Teffilos in Heichal Tzvi this past Shabbos. Although they have not yet been tested, as of this morning they are exhibiting symptoms. I am currently in touch with Daas torah and Medical professionals dealing with the situation at hand. Currently we were told that the shul most be closed immediately and be sanitized by professionals. I will update as soon as I get a response from the Doctor on necessary precautions for all that were exposed.
May they have a Refuah Sheleima Bmeheira!
Besuros Tovos,
Yanky Mashinsky
Post by: Yard sale on March 15, 2020, 12:16:01 PM
I just got a bit of clarification, that there was an emergency meeting right before Shabbos. And someone on behalf of the Roshie Yeshiva, quickly typed up a sign to hang up, basically just acknowledging that a meeting taken place and there were discussions held. It was not done by the actual Yeshiva, The person supposedly wasn't giving much instructions what to write, and clearly didn't use any common sense.
Not exactly
Post by: TimT on March 15, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 15, 2020, 12:29:44 PM
Chicago Rabbinical Council calling on all shuls to close.
Telshe Yeshiva was planning on closing Tuesday. Wonder how this will affect.
Post by: Eliyohu on March 15, 2020, 01:02:16 PM
Not exactlyCare to share the version of events your aware of? My source for this was very reliable..
Post by: Jellybelly on March 15, 2020, 02:36:02 PM
Telshe Yeshiva was planning on closing Tuesday. Wonder how this will affect.FWIW theyre not always on the same page
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 15, 2020, 02:42:31 PM
FWIW theyre not always on the same page
What I mean is if they don't close, will they open as a shul?
Post by: User6669 on March 15, 2020, 02:43:15 PM
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 15, 2020, 02:59:45 PM
What I mean is if they don't close, will they open as a shul?
Agudah didn't join CRC on closing shuls just yet.
Post by: Jellybelly on March 15, 2020, 03:00:48 PM
What I mean is if they don't close, will they open as a shul?Not sure what your asking, but I wonder if all shuls will closed because the CRC said to
Post by: Jellybelly on March 15, 2020, 03:01:07 PM
Agudah didn't join CRC on closing shuls just yet.Not surprised
Post by: yuneeq on March 15, 2020, 03:08:51 PM
https://www.nj.gov/education/topics/
Does Torah Mesorah still follow public school system or not anymore?
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 15, 2020, 03:31:50 PM
According to the New Jersey Department of Education, all school districts in Ocean County will be closed starting tomorrow, Lakewood included. https://t.co/huMjLMPj3z
https://www.nj.gov/education/topics/
Does Torah Mesorah still follow public school system or not anymore?
BMG said they will go along with whatever the state does (in regards to public schools).
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 15, 2020, 03:33:15 PM
BMG said they will go along with whatever the state does (in regards to public schools).Source?
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 15, 2020, 03:35:07 PM
Source?
very well sourced.
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 15, 2020, 03:40:59 PM
very well sourced.
There are reports that schools will be closed tomorrow.
Post by: yuneeq on March 15, 2020, 04:12:28 PM
Urgent Update from the Agudahhttps://t.co/lmhznOutAj pic.twitter.com/KsiGhFcL5f
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) March 15, 2020
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 15, 2020, 04:17:04 PM
There are reports that schools will be closed tomorrow.
Murphy said 99% chance they announce tomorrow so not sure if that includes tomorrow.
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2020, 07:03:19 PM
Post by: moko on March 15, 2020, 07:52:00 PM
Effective as of today we are closed . Shull and mikvah.men's mikvah or all mikva'os
Post by: googwallet on March 15, 2020, 07:56:45 PM
Too little, Too late.Urgent Update from the Agudahhttps://t.co/lmhznOutAj pic.twitter.com/KsiGhFcL5f
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) March 15, 2020
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2020, 08:21:12 PM
men's mikvah or all mikva'os
Aren't mikva'os heavily chlorinated to kill אלערליי מזיקים?
Post by: CountValentine on March 15, 2020, 08:23:03 PM
Aren't mikva'os heavily chlorinated to kill אלערליי מזיקים?Google failed. :)
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2020, 08:24:25 PM
Aren't mikva'os heavily chlorinated to kill אלערליי מזיקים?
And what about all the surfaces? The railings etc
Our shull doesn't have a woman's mikvah.
This is huge but it's the facts we were having a hard time just getting hand sanitizer alone not to mention the fact that we have 3 daily shacharis minyanim and many shiurim
We're going to have various small minanim around town, weather is good for outdoor stuff
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2020, 08:49:50 PM
And what about all the surfaces? The railings etcNot really touching my face after touching those without first washing.
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2020, 09:42:24 PM
Post by: avrohomgelb on March 15, 2020, 09:46:19 PM
Post by: stooges44 on March 15, 2020, 10:29:33 PM
2 people in our shul all Shabbos minyanim were exposed to a positive patient and now showing symptoms
Which neighborhood?
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 15, 2020, 10:35:26 PM
Which neighborhood?
I believe he is referring to Prospect Square
Post by: gingyguy on March 15, 2020, 10:38:29 PM
2 people in our shul all Shabbos minyanim were exposed to a positive patient and now showing symptoms
I believe he is referring to Prospect SquareNeither one of those 2 people in prospect square, were in the shul (or I think even in lakewood) over shabbos.
Post by: avrohomgelb on March 15, 2020, 10:44:12 PM
Which neighborhood?Beacon Ridge
Post by: Yard sale on March 15, 2020, 10:52:48 PM
Care to share the version of events your aware of? My source for this was very reliable..
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1840182/breaking-in-lakewood-yeshiva-told-to-prepare-for-shutdown.html
Much closer to what happened Friday
Post by: Eliyohu on March 15, 2020, 11:22:12 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1840182/breaking-in-lakewood-yeshiva-told-to-prepare-for-shutdown.htmlWhat does this article have anything to do with a meeting on Friday afternoon of Roshie Yeshiva of BMG
Much closer to what happened Friday
Post by: Yard sale on March 15, 2020, 11:27:12 PM
What does this article have anything to do with a meeting on Friday afternoon of Roshie Yeshiva of BMGMedical experts were not aligned with decisions
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2020, 11:27:44 PM
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 15, 2020, 11:33:08 PM
There are so many rumors from "ultra super duper reliable sources" that I know first hand to be untrue.My reliable sources tell me that you're wrong
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2020, 11:36:06 PM
My reliable sources tell me that you're wrongI am not trying to convince anyone. I don't feel the need to have the scoop.
Post by: bestwatchman on March 15, 2020, 11:41:59 PM
Post by: yelped on March 15, 2020, 11:53:15 PM
Post by: EliJelly on March 16, 2020, 12:07:59 AM
Just saw a video going around of Rabbi Shiff, the Ruv of Antwerp regarding Covid19. If someone could post a link here would be great. He acts like a classic "Shtat's Rav" and takes responsibility for his congregants.Of the few remaining kehilos with an official Shtut's Ruv who's really in charge.
Post by: EliJelly on March 16, 2020, 01:10:50 AM
https://ahblicklive.com/post.php?id=1821
Post by: ad120 on March 16, 2020, 01:15:35 AM
There are so many rumors from "ultra super duper reliable sources" that I know first hand to be untrue.I guess your source is a Sooper Sekrit.
Post by: ad120 on March 16, 2020, 01:20:42 AM
See you all in SoFL this weekend!
#ThankYouCovid19
Post by: aygart on March 16, 2020, 07:49:50 AM
I guess your source is a Sooper Sekrit.First hand is not a source.
Post by: yelped on March 16, 2020, 11:28:31 AM
אלעס גייט אהן ווי געהעריג אין ב.פ. די וועלט איז אונגענצען איינגערעט און מענטשען זענען געווארען גוט משוגע איבער דער נארישקייט.:o :o :o
See you all in SoFL this weekend!
#ThankYouCovid19
Post by: Abc1234561 on March 16, 2020, 12:28:02 PM
Post by: avromie7 on March 16, 2020, 12:35:33 PM
See attachedIs this spam?
Post by: Dan on March 16, 2020, 12:38:55 PM
Is this spam?Legit.
Post by: Abc1234561 on March 16, 2020, 12:42:49 PM
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2020, 01:15:33 PM
See attached
Very stupid and misguided
Post by: stooges44 on March 16, 2020, 01:22:25 PM
See attached
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=32704.msg2211882#msg2211882
Post by: Proisrael on March 16, 2020, 01:28:07 PM
Choteh umechateh
His claims are perfectly valid. Instead of calling him names. If people are shopping in packed stores (THEY 100% ARE) Going to restaurants and weddings (THEY 100% ARE) there is no reason to close a shul (assuming people can wash hands and there is an abundance of soap)
Post by: Abc1234561 on March 16, 2020, 01:32:04 PM
Post by: aygart on March 16, 2020, 01:32:20 PM
His claims are perfectly valid. Instead of calling him names. If people are shopping in packed stores (THEY 100% ARE) Going to restaurants and weddings (THEY 100% ARE) there is no reason to close a shul (assuming people can wash hands and there is an abundance of soap)1. They will not be going to restaurants anymore and most likely not most weddings either
2. Stores are not the same rsk level since it is not sustained exposure.
3. מי שאכל שום וריחו נודף, יחזור ויאכל שום אחר ויהא ריחו נודף?
Post by: Proisrael on March 16, 2020, 01:37:28 PM
1. They will not be going to restaurants anymore and most likely not most weddings either
2. Stores are not the same rsk level since it is not sustained exposure.
3. מי שאכל שום וריחו נודף, יחזור ויאכל שום אחר ויהא ריחו נודף?
True. However how many people were first to drop minyan before going to restaurants. And people are still going shopping regardless of how many people are there.
Post by: CountValentine on March 16, 2020, 01:40:21 PM
True. However how many people were first to drop minyan before going to restaurants. And people are still going shopping regardless of how many people are there.But officer he was speeding to.
Post by: moko on March 16, 2020, 01:40:25 PM
2. Stores are not the same risk level since it is not sustained exposure.To be clear, I'm not advocating for shuls to be open but this is probably incorrect. Being in this situation, I've been monitoring our local stores and have come to realize it's an unmitigated disaster in term spreading the virus.
You have virtually no control over who walks in. getting customers to follow protocols in place is nearly impossible. Countless unknown individuals are handling products and putting them back on the shelf for the next person to handle a minute later.
I've seen up close and personal how all this is going on after monitoring stores for many hours. All this despite the employees and mashgichim following strict protocols.
Post by: Proisrael on March 16, 2020, 01:46:15 PM
But officer he was speeding to.
If you understood the meaning of prayer you wouldnt say that.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 16, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
Choteh umechatehMoron is more appropriate.
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
If you understood the meaning of prayer you wouldnt say that.
So people need to pray and not eat ?
I am not hoarding but as I mentioned in the other thread that I have enough supplies to tide me.
I have cut down all contact that is not urgent.
We stopped going to our parents, our bubby is keh 95.
I needed to pick something up and my father would only let me do it from the porch.
People should have stocked up well in advance. People should be ordering online for delivery etc.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 16, 2020, 01:59:16 PM
Post by: skyguy918 on March 16, 2020, 02:02:17 PM
Schools unfortunately would be impossible to do something similar.
ETA: Before anyone jumps on that, I fully realize that most places that are open aren't actually doing all these things. But that begs the questions, why not? And why can't places that are closed institute such things and stay open?
Post by: aygart on March 16, 2020, 02:08:11 PM
True. However how many people were first to drop minyan before going to restaurants. And people are still going shopping regardless of how many people are there.So because of these people everyone should ignore the dangers?
Post by: TimT on March 16, 2020, 02:10:23 PM
Can really go a long way toward stopping the panic also.Im afraid that would have the reverse effect. In a bad way
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 02:18:50 PM
I defer to da'as taroah when it comes to psak, so I will not state my opinion. However it is worth noting that Lakewood has also yet to a have a single confirmed case. We will see how long that lasts, however until then i would be surprised if anything changes.
Update: still no confirmed cases in Lakewood. And yes there is testing in Chemed. Koach Hatorah!
Post by: gingyguy on March 16, 2020, 02:24:30 PM
I begged one of the people I know that are partners in one of the bigger groceries this morning to limit number of people and limit amount of time to shop. Got no response. This is so simple. 25 people in the store at any given time. 20 minute max shopping. Can really go a long way toward stopping the panic also.25 people in the store at a time , means that there will be 100s of people a day that have no access to a store. there are no where near enough groceries to maintain such a rule and still have everyone able to shop for their neccessities
Post by: TimT on March 16, 2020, 02:32:38 PM
Post by: CountValentine on March 16, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
If you understood the meaning of prayer you wouldnt say that.I can pray all by myself.
Post by: flyingace on March 16, 2020, 02:47:31 PM
Update: still no confirmed cases in Lakewood. And yes there is testing in Chemed. Koach Hatorah!Very limited testing. Only if you've been exposed to a positive case. MANY people with symptoms are being denied testing. It's all there but not tested, including in Yeshiva.
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 02:51:32 PM
Very limited testing. Only if you've been exposed to a positive case. MANY people with symptoms are being denied testing. It's all there but not tested, including in Yeshiva.
where is there not limited testing??? South Korea has a 96 percent negative test rate. just because someone is feeling symptoms, it doesn't mean they have the virus.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 16, 2020, 02:54:01 PM
25 people in the store at a time , means that there will be 100s of people a day that have no access to a store. there are no where near enough groceries to maintain such a rule and still have everyone able to shop for their neccessities25 people on a rolling basis with numbers and time limits. I dont see why not.
Post by: mochjas on March 16, 2020, 02:54:17 PM
Update: still no confirmed cases in Lakewood. And yes there is testing in Chemed. Koach Hatorah!so Yerushalayim has no koach Hatorah? Neither does Brooklyn? only Lakewood? Cut the non sense please.....
Post by: flyingace on March 16, 2020, 02:54:46 PM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 16, 2020, 02:58:21 PM
Look what a voice note about water caused.And shoprite had plenty of water today. They didnt anticipate that. You can schedule orderly lines with security. They do it for every other stupid event with Shomrim and Shmira. Maybe its time they did it with this. Or, time for all the groceries to band together and pool resources in one open place. 18th Avenue Park for BP. Set up tents with staples and ration cards. Like the pesach distribution but for profit.
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 03:02:09 PM
You cannot say there are no cases if the testing is no available. As soon as NYC made tests available the numbers rose.
It is available. Just limited. Just like everywhere else. Bli Ayin Harah. Which is pretty remarkable if you consider the circumstances.
Post by: Yard sale on March 16, 2020, 03:05:00 PM
Update: still no confirmed cases in Lakewood. And yes there is testing in Chemed. Koach Hatorah!
Thats because there were almost no tests available earlier last week. The test given more recently take several days to come back.
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 03:07:50 PM
so Yerushalayim has no koach Hatorah? Neither does Brooklyn? only Lakewood? Cut the non sense please.....
I don't ch"v intend to belittle Yerushalyim, Brooklyn etc. Just pointing out a fact that considering the all the circumstances is incredibly impressive.
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 03:08:36 PM
Thats because there were almost no tests available earlier last week. The test given more recently take several days to come back.
the high profile cases that i am aware of have come back negative.
Post by: flyingace on March 16, 2020, 03:08:50 PM
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 03:10:17 PM
Lakewood health officials expecting a spike in positive cases once test results come back over 100 tested at local clinic takes 3-5 days for results.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit. Source?
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2020, 03:16:22 PM
I really don't see why shuls can't be open, as long as appropriate precautions are put in place, and someone is put in charge of actually enforcing them in each shul. Is it so crazy to force everyone to wear gloves and mask if they want to come in? Direct people to specific seats so as to spread people out? Everyone bring their own siddurim? No one over a certain age, and no one experiencing any symptoms? No one who needs to be quarantined due to necessary contact with elderly/immunocompromised people? Etc, etc.
Schools unfortunately would be impossible to do something similar.
ETA: Before anyone jumps on that, I fully realize that most places that are open aren't actually doing all these things. But that begs the questions, why not? And why can't places that are closed institute such things and stay open?
We tried that... over a 1-week period we implemented more and more extreme measures what we had to give up.
We have a minyan in the parking lot now.
P.s. we couldn't get hand soap in sufficient quantity and 0 hand sanitizer.
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 03:45:06 PM
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 04:04:47 PM
Post by: Mootkim on March 16, 2020, 04:08:11 PM
Breaking: BMG just shut downAny idea when it is going into effect?
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 16, 2020, 04:10:52 PM
Post by: ari3 on March 16, 2020, 04:17:15 PM
Any idea when it is going into effect?I would assume Wednesday as per the governors order.
Post by: yungermanchik on March 16, 2020, 07:29:32 PM
25 people on a rolling basis with numbers and time limits. I dont see why not.Costco does it now with 50 people in the store at a time
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 16, 2020, 07:46:08 PM
Costco does it now with 50 people in the store at a timeIs it helping? As person one leaves and person 51 goes in, person 1 can infect person 51 and so on. How is this helping contain the virus?
Post by: yesitsme on March 16, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
Post by: yesitsme on March 16, 2020, 08:55:54 PM
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2020, 09:28:44 PM
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 16, 2020, 09:34:00 PM
P.s. we couldn't get hand soap in sufficient quantity??? For real?! First time I heard that!
Post by: TimT on March 16, 2020, 09:35:56 PM
Do people actually follow these guidelines?Yes. Theyre very strict there
Post by: yesitsme on March 16, 2020, 09:36:26 PM
Do people actually follow these guidelines?In our shul yes, I enjoyed the roomy tefilos but שלש סעודות felt like tisha b'av.
Post by: TimT on March 16, 2020, 09:45:18 PM
these are the outdated guidelinesDown to 20 from what I hear.
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2020, 09:47:19 PM
??? For real?! First time I heard that!
I tried Uline, webstaurant etc..
Post by: yesitsme on March 16, 2020, 09:47:35 PM
Down to 20 from what I hear.Correct
(https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=114678.0;attach=34546;image)
Post by: yungermanchik on March 16, 2020, 10:14:06 PM
Is it helping? As person one leaves and person 51 goes in, person 1 can infect person 51 and so on. How is this helping contain the virus?they are wiping down the carts with lysol wipes in between
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2020, 12:55:39 AM
Post by: brooklyndan on March 17, 2020, 01:03:51 AM
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2020, 01:29:35 AM
I don't get why landau's in Flatbush is still open. They have thousands of Mispalelim a day in a small shul, from all different walks of life. Much worse than a strictly chassidish shul whose mispalelim are relatively self contained.
Don't try to understand anything here!
I
Post by: yesitsme on March 17, 2020, 02:08:53 PM
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2020, 02:18:03 PM
770 is ripe for a coup, as the Gaboim, Rabbonim and Shamesh are not allowed in. The carpenter (who IMHO is over 65) is there despite signs saying no-one over 65 allowed. Again I needed to discard whatever I saw in the coffee station myself, as no-one else seems to care.
Post by: CountValentine on March 17, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
(https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=114678.0;attach=34567;image)I bet no one seen that coming. ::)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 17, 2020, 02:21:19 PM
I don't get why landau's in Flatbush is still open. They have thousands of Mispalelim a day in a small shul, from all different walks of life. Much worse than a strictly chassidish shul whose mispalelim are relatively self contained.They wipe down and disinfect every night if thats any consolation to you.
Post by: aygart on March 17, 2020, 02:24:55 PM
They wipe down and disinfect every night if thats any consolation to you.only daven there vasikin
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2020, 02:26:05 PM
They wipe down and disinfect every night if thats any consolation to you.
For about 10 seconds sure...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 17, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
only daven there vasikinYoure too late...Terach's minyan already infected it again. Although that minyan will get smaller and smaller each day as the old folks start dropping...
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 17, 2020, 03:04:47 PM
I tried Uline, webstaurant etc..Rite Aide's website is still listing plenty Dial and other hand soaps for $1.50 and under, shipped with cde FREESHIP.
Post by: YossieW on March 17, 2020, 05:55:12 PM
“Extraordinary times call upon us to take extraordinary measures.”
— Chief Rabbi Mirvis (@chiefrabbi) March 17, 2020
Following further consultation today with the Office of the Chief Medical Officer, the Chief Rabbi concludes that we have a ‘Halachic imperative to suspend all activity at all of our synagogues’. pic.twitter.com/eGjOfxxvpi
Post by: Eliyohu on March 17, 2020, 07:28:11 PM
I'm sure @aygart can probably comment on the meeting that led to this letter, not that it says much anyway..
Post by: aygart on March 17, 2020, 07:32:28 PM
FTFY
I'm sure @aygart can't comment
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
Post by: googwallet on March 17, 2020, 08:38:45 PM
Beis Din of Crown Heights ruled all shuls and men mikva'os shut effective immediately.Wow. Finally.
Post by: TimT on March 17, 2020, 09:06:38 PM
Beis Din of Crown Heights ruled all shuls and men mikva'os shut effective immediately.Do they control 770 ?
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2020, 09:12:15 PM
Do they control 770 ?
To the extent that someone will lock the doors on order.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 17, 2020, 09:38:41 PM
Do they control 770 ?Thanks for the unintented comedy.
Post by: TimT on March 17, 2020, 09:40:46 PM
Thanks for the unintented comedy.You'll need to explain this one. Google translate isnt much help. :)
Post by: Joel on March 17, 2020, 09:40:54 PM
Post by: flatbush guy on March 17, 2020, 09:45:38 PM
Post by: Joel on March 17, 2020, 09:51:37 PM
WOW.the oilem has chapped whats going onnot all but hopefully more will follow..
Post by: TimT on March 17, 2020, 09:56:16 PM
.Trump probably gets credit for this
Post by: CountValentine on March 17, 2020, 09:58:21 PM
Trump probably gets credit for this>:(
Post by: TimT on March 17, 2020, 10:01:36 PM
>:(https://mobile.twitter.com/JakeTurx/status/1240083061057994752
Post by: Joel on March 17, 2020, 10:16:49 PM
Trump gets credit for thisFTFY
Post by: flatbush guy on March 17, 2020, 10:21:49 PM
Watch: Police sending out everyone from Satmar Bhm"d in Monsey and closing it!#CoronaChaos pic.twitter.com/3VtfO9dUOp
— 𝐇𝐞𝐢𝐦𝐢𝐬𝐡𝐞 𝐌𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚 (@HeimisheMedia) March 18, 2020
Post by: CountValentine on March 17, 2020, 10:23:04 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/JakeTurx/status/1240083061057994752I thought you were joking. Give credit where credit is do!!!
Post by: gingyguy on March 17, 2020, 10:29:13 PM
I thought you were joking. Give credit where credit is do!!!
Not even gonna bother with a FTFY , just gonna say OUCH!!!I really dont expect this from you
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2020, 07:29:05 AM
I really dont expect this from youI barley made it out of scholl.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 18, 2020, 07:36:48 AM
Trump probably gets credit for thisIt's all Avi Berkowitz.
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 18, 2020, 08:18:20 AM
They are opening a new bein hazmanim minyan for Shacharis and Mincha. They do ask that you soap your hands on the way in and only come if youre 100% fine. I imagine it will be rather crowded and the regulations not adhered to.
Also, they are serving as an off-site classroom for a local school that was forced to close. They must still see it as only a legal inconvenience, as opposed to a measure designed to save lives.
Disclaimer: I would still go to shul if there was a proper protocol in place.
Post by: Mordyk on March 18, 2020, 10:33:10 AM
From the Shul next door:
They are opening a new bein hazmanim minyan for Shacharis and Mincha. They do ask that you soap your hands on the way in and only come if youre 100% fine. I imagine it will be rather crowded and the regulations not adhered to.
Also, they are serving as an off-site classroom for a local school that was forced to close. They must still see it as only a legal inconvenience, as opposed to a measure designed to save lives.
Disclaimer: I would still go to shul if there was a proper protocol in place.
so many unfortunately so
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 18, 2020, 10:35:24 AM
From the Shul next door:
They are opening a new bein hazmanim minyan for Shacharis and Mincha. They do ask that you soap your hands on the way in and only come if youre 100% fine. I imagine it will be rather crowded and the regulations not adhered to.
Also, they are serving as an off-site classroom for a local school that was forced to close. They must still see it as only a legal inconvenience, as opposed to a measure designed to save lives.
Disclaimer: I would still go to shul if there was a proper protocol in place.
This is crazy. Are they waiting for people to die? Doesn't saving lives come before all?
Post by: yesitsme on March 18, 2020, 10:49:46 AM
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2020, 11:32:11 AM
Post by: gingyguy on March 18, 2020, 12:21:55 PM
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2020, 12:23:20 PM
Post by: mochjas on March 18, 2020, 12:24:00 PM
How can there still be some open?There are a bunch still open
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
There are a bunch still openThere isn't one church open in my area.
Post by: Mordyk on March 18, 2020, 12:31:27 PM
Post by: gingyguy on March 18, 2020, 12:32:50 PM
Post by: TimT on March 18, 2020, 12:35:57 PM
Rabbi of our shul said he is only closing if a government official tells us to close the shuls. did anyone say to close the shuls? looking for back up to show him. he is not on whatsapp lolIs he letting old people in ?
Post by: Mordyk on March 18, 2020, 12:41:34 PM
Is he letting old people in ?No. Only members and splitting every minyan so we have social distance
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 01:05:22 PM
No. Only members and splitting every minyan so we have social distanceWe have the same thing, including other precautions like
The doors being propped open
Disinfectant wipes to wipe down your place/seforim
All the chairs are stacked up except for 1 per table (as it is our shul is very spacious, we can easily fit double the amount of tables and still have more room than many other shuls)
No congregating before/after davening (yes, the rav is enforcing it)
No children under Bar Mitzva
Post by: hvaces42 on March 18, 2020, 01:08:53 PM
Post by: momo on March 18, 2020, 01:09:45 PM
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 01:09:58 PM
Anyone have a list of shuls in BP that are closed. The obstinate shoiteh rav of a big shul with an elderly population of members need "evidence" before he closes his shul. Maybe its time to start naming names...Start with Shomer Shabbos being closed for the first time in 102 years.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 18, 2020, 01:11:46 PM
Start with Shomer Shabbos being closed for the first time in 102 years.He said thats not enough "evidence" Hes an absolute Rotzeiach.
Post by: TimT on March 18, 2020, 01:12:08 PM
did anyone say to close the shuls? looking for back up to show him.Depending on your location there might not be such a rule. They were shutting down public shuls that werent following the guidelines.
Post by: gingyguy on March 18, 2020, 01:12:27 PM
Anyone have a list of shuls in BP that are closed. The obstinate shoiteh rav of a big shul with an elderly population of members need "evidence" before he closes his shul. Maybe its time to start naming names...i have no idea who you are talking , but Just going to say that you can to believe whatever you want, but you had better watch the way you talk about talmidei chachamim . The repercussions can be a lot worse than coronavirus
Post by: ExGingi on March 18, 2020, 01:13:22 PM
Start with Shomer Shabbos being closed for the first time in 102 years.770 closed for the first time in 80 years.
Post by: TimT on March 18, 2020, 01:13:44 PM
Anyone have a list of shuls in BP that are closed. The obstinate shoiteh rav of a big shul with an elderly population of members need "evidence" before he closes his shul. Maybe its time to start naming names...Has nobody in that shul tested positive or in quarantine ?
Post by: stooges44 on March 18, 2020, 01:13:57 PM
Anyone have a list of shuls in BP that are closed. The obstinate shoiteh rav of a big shul with an elderly population of members need "evidence" before he closes his shul. Maybe its time to start naming names...
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=113531.msg2213234#msg2213234
Have Dr. Bennett give him a tour.
Post by: Yonah on March 18, 2020, 01:14:28 PM
He said thats not enough "evidence" Hes an absolute Rotzeiach.
Is there a bal habayis or two that can influence him? Is there even one doctor in the shul?
Post by: ExGingi on March 18, 2020, 01:14:36 PM
Has nobody in that shul tested positive or in quarantine ?
Who's testing?
Just assume everyone is positive.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 18, 2020, 01:16:01 PM
The president of the shul who is a medical professional cant seem to convince him!!!
Is there a bal habayis or two that can influence him? Is there even one doctor in the shul?
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 18, 2020, 01:18:03 PM
The president of the shul who is a medical professional cant seem to convince him!!!
People should just stop showing up.
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
People should just stop showing up....and boycott them when it is all over.
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2020, 01:21:07 PM
The president of the shul who is a medical professional cant seem to convince him!!!So what kind of evidence would possibly convince him?
Post by: AsherO on March 18, 2020, 01:21:30 PM
Anyone have a list of shuls in BP that are closed. The obstinate shoiteh rav of a big shul with an elderly population of members need "evidence" before he closes his shul. Maybe its time to start naming names...
Someone just has to scare his constituency from showing up. He can isolate himself in Shul if he prefers.
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 18, 2020, 01:21:52 PM
So what kind of evidence would possibly convince him?Someone dying. Or everyone being too sick to come.
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 01:23:37 PM
Someone just has to scare his constituency from showing up. He can isolate himself in Shul if he prefers.Why do so many here think his constituency will stop showing up? They all think the same AND they have rav to rely on.
Post by: AsherO on March 18, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
Why do so many here think his constituency will stop showing up? They all think the same AND they have rav to rely on.
If we cant get through to him we can try to speak sense into them. Chip away at the weakest link, once people start buying in the tides can turn.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 18, 2020, 01:25:52 PM
So what kind of evidence would possibly convince him?A verifieable list of local shuls. He doesnt want to hear about Lakewood or 770 hes keeing up with the Jonses' there is a shteibel on the next block.
Someone dying. Or everyone being too sick to come.This will probably need to happen unfortunately.
Post by: TimT on March 18, 2020, 01:28:28 PM
A verifieable list of local shuls. He doesnt want to hear about Lakewood or 770 hes keeing up with the Jonses' there is a shteibel on the next block.Shomer shabbos, Stolin, probably Bobov 48
Ill try to find more
Post by: US on March 18, 2020, 01:33:30 PM
Shomer shabbos, Stolin, Bobov 48FTFY,
Ill try to find more
Bobov 45
All Belz Shtiblech
Satmer 53
Post by: AsherO on March 18, 2020, 01:46:41 PM
This will probably need to happen unfortunately.
Pious fools RL.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 18, 2020, 01:49:05 PM
Pious fools RL.Youre too kind. Stubborn Mules. There is no piety in this decision. Its a game of chicken. So if you're playing a game for animals...you can be called one too.
Post by: AsherO on March 18, 2020, 02:00:17 PM
Youre too kind. Stubborn Mules. There is no piety in this decision. Its a game of chicken. So if you're playing a game for animals...you can be called one too.
Even worse. Theyre not doing it to workship G-d, theyre doing it out of vanity and peer pressure. Herd mentality backfiring in a really ugly way. How sad, sheep to the slaughter RL.
Post by: TimT on March 18, 2020, 02:08:27 PM
Cant fix stupid
Post by: chevron on March 18, 2020, 02:20:19 PM
Sadly this is simply not going to hit till it explodes.
And then they will claim to weren't warned
They will claim they didn't see it coming
They will blame the internet, gay parades, link shaitels red lipstick, Pink toe nails...
So sad...
Post by: Yonah on March 18, 2020, 02:35:06 PM
The president of the shul who is a medical professional cant seem to convince him!!!
Then maybe the President of the shul and board should overule the Rav!
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
Then maybe the President of the shul and board should overule the Rav!It doesn't work that way in a shteibel.
Post by: Yonah on March 18, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
Then maybe the President of the shul and board should overule the Rav!
To qualify my statement - I am not g-d forbid, suggesting that the Board should overrule the Rav in halachic matters. What I am suggesting is at some point this becomes a business/compliance matter, and maybe we word a statement like - 'While the Rav insists that we keep the shul open, we are required to state that the vast majority of health professionals have urged people not to congregate at this time'.
Post by: Yonah on March 18, 2020, 02:42:50 PM
It doesn't work that way in a shteibel.
So then what is the president in charge of? Kiddush?
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 02:44:57 PM
So then what is the president in charge of? Kiddush?Operations & Finance. The rav owns the shteibel, so he has all the power.
Post by: chevron on March 18, 2020, 03:30:34 PM
How do we get one of those animated videos made? The ones that explain in simple science terms how this epidemic works and how spreading it and not staying home will cause untold numbers to die
Post by: Luvisrael on March 18, 2020, 03:38:17 PM
From the Shul next door:If its true that your lost contagious when you are asymptomatic , its absolutely ridiculous to say come if your %100 fine
They are opening a new bein hazmanim minyan for Shacharis and Mincha. They do ask that you soap your hands on the way in and only come if youre 100% fine. I imagine it will be rather crowded and the regulations not adhered to.
Also, they are serving as an off-site classroom for a local school that was forced to close. They must still see it as only a legal inconvenience, as opposed to a measure designed to save lives.
Disclaimer: I would still go to shul if there was a proper protocol in place.
Post by: Mootkim on March 18, 2020, 04:51:45 PM
Post by: israshot on March 18, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
Filmed in Crteil, France.
מי כעמך ישראל!
Post by: stooges44 on March 18, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
https://soundcloud.com/user-659614314/r-oelbaum-covid-19-shuls/s-QVCQD6fCe74
Post by: ExGingi on March 18, 2020, 10:21:48 PM
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 18, 2020, 10:23:09 PM
As of this evening Beis Din of Crown Heights ordered all outdoor minyanim to cease. Everyone should daven at home.Wow.
Post by: avromie7 on March 18, 2020, 10:58:22 PM
We have the same thing, including other precautions likethis changed pretty quickly, as of tonight our shul is closed.
The doors being propped open
Disinfectant wipes to wipe down your place/seforim
All the chairs are stacked up except for 1 per table (as it is our shul is very spacious, we can easily fit double the amount of tables and still have more room than many other shuls)
No congregating before/after davening (yes, the rav is enforcing it)
No children under Bar Mitzva
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2020, 11:43:38 PM
The changes stated from this although they were more gradual than I expected. The shul s which closed earliest made a lot of sense.
I expect Lakewood to look very different within a day or two.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 18, 2020, 11:44:40 PM
The changes stated from this although they were more gradual than I expected. The shul s which closed earliest made a lot of sense.That's because they're catching on earlier than we assumed.
Post by: aygart on March 19, 2020, 12:14:31 AM
That's because they're catching on earlier than we assumed.I expected quicker than this. It took one day longer than I thought.
Post by: yitzgar on March 19, 2020, 12:37:37 AM
Post by: stooges44 on March 19, 2020, 05:55:25 AM
Listen to this! R' Noach Isaac Oelbaum
https://soundcloud.com/user-659614314/r-oelbaum-covid-19-shuls/s-QVCQD6fCe74
Now you can see him say it as well!
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=105366
Post by: AsherO on March 19, 2020, 08:08:29 AM
As of this evening Beis Din of Crown Heights ordered all outdoor minyanim to cease. Everyone should daven at home.
This is way overdue. The CH Beis Din seems to have a delay in their guidance.
Was there ever any substantiated expert guidance advising that outdoor gatherings were not a problem?
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 08:17:23 AM
This is way overdue. The CH Beis Din seems to have a delay in their guidance.
Was there ever any substantiated expert guidance advising that outdoor gatherings were not a problem?
Well, in EY when they announced the 10 person limit they said to maintain 2 meter distance. I think totally banning minyanim is an extreme measure taken due to the severity of the situation on one hand, and the fact that it was not being taken seriously enough on the other hand.
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 08:22:51 AM
Well, in EY when they announced the 10 person limit they said to maintain 2 meter distance. I think totally banning minyanim is an extreme measure taken due to the severity of the situation on one hand, and the fact that it was not being taken seriously enough on the other hand.The reason they did so is because ppl were going to the 770 backyard and it was also full. They are closing the main dorm for bochurim from Monday on, hopefully they will all go back to Israel (quarantined).
Post by: skyguy918 on March 19, 2020, 08:29:36 AM
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 10:31:24 AM
Rabbi Chaim Druckman: 'No reason not to pray with minyan' (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277522)
Quote
"we needn't be more strict about Health Ministry guidelines precisely when it comes to sacred matters. If the Health Ministry wouldn't allow one to leave the house, we wouldn't say to leave the house to go pray with a minyan.
"But since there is no such provision, and for certain events, congregations of up to ten people - such as weddings, etc. - are allowed, there's no reason not to pray with a minyan of ten. In Rami Levy Supermarket even 100 people were allowed at one time, in other places they allow up to ten, and there's no reason to be stricter than the Health Ministry."
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
The reason they did so is because ppl were going to the 770 backyard and it was also full. They are closing the main dorm for bochurim from Monday on, hopefully they will all go back to Israel (quarantined).
If I'll manage I will post later on a video that is going around on WhatsApp of the bochurim that arrived in Israel being told their status. They are basically all being moved to isolation at a hotel in Jerusalem. Each getting their own room. Anyone presenting symptoms will be moved to a medical facility. Health ministry is assuming anyone arriving from Crown Heights is positive.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 10:41:18 AM
This is way overdue. The CH Beis Din seems to have a delay in their guidance.Why be more machmir than official government requirements (not suggested "guidelines")?
Was there ever any substantiated expert guidance advising that outdoor gatherings were not a problem?
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:44:38 AM
Why be more machmir than official government requirements (not suggested "guidelines")?
See Rambam הלכות דעות פרק ב הלכה ב.
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2020, 10:45:06 AM
Why be more machmir than official government requirements (not suggested "guidelines")?To save lives?
Post by: Chapshnell on March 19, 2020, 10:46:15 AM
Now you can see him say it as well!
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=105366
thanks!
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:50:36 AM
See Rambam הלכות דעות פרק ב הלכה ב.
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Human_Dispositions.2?lang=bi
Post by: mochjas on March 19, 2020, 10:51:45 AM
If I'll manage I will post later on a video that is going around on WhatsApp of the bochurim that arrived in Israel being told their status. They are basically all being moved to isolation at a hotel in Jerusalem. Each getting their own room. Anyone presenting symptoms will be moved to a medical facility. Health ministry is assuming anyone arriving from Crown Heights is positive.Free Hotel? Not bad!
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:53:11 AM
Free Hotel? Not bad!Worthy of a DDMS post - get a free hotel stay in Israel (for Israeli citizens only) all meals included.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 10:53:16 AM
See Rambam הלכות דעות פרק ב הלכה ב.
To save lives?Please explain what the issue would be when they are
in very small groups
outdoors
practicing "social distancing"
all young and healthy individuals
who are not in any contact with at-risk (older and underlying conditioned) populations?
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 10:54:18 AM
Worthy of a DDMS post - get a free hotel stay in Israel (for Israeli citizens only) all meals included.Ocean view IINM!
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 10:55:34 AM
Please explain what the issue would be when they are
in very small groups
outdoors
practicing "social distancing"
all young and healthy individuals
who are not in any contact with at-risk (older and underlying conditioned) populations?
The reason they did so is because ppl were going to the 770 backyard and it was also full.
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:55:59 AM
Please explain what the issue would be when they are
in very small groups
outdoors
practicing "social distancing"
all young and healthy individuals
who are not in any contact with at-risk (older and underlying conditioned) populations?
Did you look up the Rambam? (I posted a bi-lingual link above) Especially the last sentence. They are taking these extreme measures because the Oilom wasn't taking restrictions seriously.
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:56:29 AM
Ocean view IINM!
Wrong. Not much of an ocean view from Jerusalem...
Post by: mochjas on March 19, 2020, 10:57:23 AM
Please explain what the issue would be when they arehttps://www.facebook.com/100000998495476/posts/2933557926687462/?d=n
in very small groups
outdoors
practicing "social distancing"
all young and healthy individuals
who are not in any contact with at-risk (older and underlying conditioned) populations?
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 10:58:20 AM
Wrong. Not much of an ocean view from Jerusalem...I thought I read somewhere that the government started a Corona hotel in Tel Aviv as well...
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2020, 10:58:27 AM
Please explain what the issue would be when they areIf they can follow those precautions nothing but do you really believe they will?
in very small groups
outdoors
practicing "social distancing"
all young and healthy individuals
who are not in any contact with at-risk (older and underlying conditioned) populations?
Right now it is a mindset. We have to change how we act and think right now before it is to late.
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 10:59:05 AM
I thought I read somewhere that the government started a Corona hotel in Tel Aviv as well...That was for locals.
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2020, 11:02:25 AM
https://www.facebook.com/100000998495476/posts/2933557926687462/?d=nOUCH! Talk about laying it all out there.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 11:18:39 AM
If they can follow those precautions nothing but do you really believe they will?In (most) groups that I saw, people were behaving in a correct manner.
Right now it is a mindset. We have to change how we act and think right now before it is to late.
Post by: chevron on March 19, 2020, 11:30:09 AM
Post by: chevron on March 19, 2020, 11:31:47 AM
If they can follow those precautions nothing but do you really believe they will?
Right now it is a mindset. We have to change how we act and think right now before it is to late.
It doesn't really work because your mentality is so ingrained That's why you have to take such extreme measures including total isolation
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 11:33:49 AM
If I'll manage I will post later on a video that is going around on WhatsApp of the bochurim that arrived in Israel being told their status. They are basically all being moved to isolation at a hotel in Jerusalem. Each getting their own room. Anyone presenting symptoms will be moved to a medical facility. Health ministry is assuming anyone arriving from Crown Heights is positive.
All #Israelis coming from #CrownHeights are taken to the @DanHotels for a #COVID19 test. If they are positive they go to the hospital.
— Israel Scholte (@Israshot_) March 19, 2020
They might send them home if they test negative.
Video #1 pic.twitter.com/QTiaZzKd68
All videos with the hotel tour...
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
In (most) groups that I saw, people were behaving in a correct manner.Then it is a failure. "Most" is not good enough.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 11:43:19 AM
Then it is a failure. "Most" is not good enough.The exceptions (hence the "most") don't adhere to rabbinic authorities in any case (anarchists*). The majority who do listen, were also obeying the rules.
(*which may help you understand why some were arrested by NYS Sherrifs/NYPD last night. I'm not providing more details.)
Post by: TimT on March 19, 2020, 11:49:29 AM
The exceptions (hence the "most") don't adhere to rabbinic authorities in any case (anarchists*). The majority who do listen, were also obeying the rules.Those few will infect the ones obeying the rules.
(*which may help you understand why some were arrested by NYS Sherrifs/NYPD last night. I'm not providing more details.)
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 11:52:50 AM
Those few will infect the ones obeying the rules.Very unlikely.
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2020, 11:56:11 AM
Very unlikely.How do you think this virus is spreading? These same people taking the precautions you are talking about may already be infected and not know it.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 12:02:27 PM
How do you think this virus is spreading? These same people taking the precautions you are talking about may already be infected and not know it.FWIU the going assumption in Brooklyn is that you most likely already have it anyway. That's why everyone without exceptions should have absolutely no physical contact/closeness with anyone at risk (over 60 yo, and those with underlying conditions), who should be completely isolating themselves anyhow.
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 12:04:14 PM
FWIU the going assumption in Brooklyn is that you most likely already have it anyway. That's why everyone without exceptions should have absolutely no physical contact/closeness with anyone at risk (over 60 yo, and those with underlying conditions), who should be isolating themselves completely.
Indeed. I have no reason to assume that the vast majority of the community has not already been infected.
Post by: mochjas on March 19, 2020, 12:37:31 PM
Update: still no confirmed cases in Lakewood. And yes there is testing in Chemed. Koach Hatorah!https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1841216/ny-nj-update-another-300-cases-in-bp-kiryas-yoel-dr-makes-frightening-prediction-ny-cases-surge-past-4000-dozens-in-lakewood.html
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 12:40:05 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1841216/ny-nj-update-another-300-cases-in-bp-kiryas-yoel-dr-makes-frightening-prediction-ny-cases-surge-past-4000-dozens-in-lakewood.html@dealfinder11 will tell you that it's because they closed the shuls and yeshivas...
Post by: zh cohen on March 19, 2020, 12:44:47 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1841216/ny-nj-update-another-300-cases-in-bp-kiryas-yoel-dr-makes-frightening-prediction-ny-cases-surge-past-4000-dozens-in-lakewood.html
Yesterday someone proudly told me they didn't have a single case in KJ...
Post by: RewardsAddict on March 19, 2020, 12:48:18 PM
Yesterday someone proudly told me they didn't have a single case in KJ...Of course they didnt. It takes two days for the tests to come back.
Post by: chevron on March 19, 2020, 12:53:36 PM
Post by: EliJelly on March 19, 2020, 12:55:57 PM
Yesterday someone proudly told me they didn't have a single case in KJ...From Dr. Zelinka, A long time practitioner in KJ.
https://ahblicklive.com/post.php?id=1863
Post by: skyguy918 on March 19, 2020, 01:09:57 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/03/19/dr-ditchek-declares-dont-go-to-shul-if-you-go-you-are-a-sinner-and-potential-murderer/Wow, was gonna comment on what a dumpster fire the comments are (as usual), but there's a gem in there too, with some interesting mareh mekomos:
Quote
Physician March 19, 2020 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm
Dr. Ditcheks statement is in line with what world-renowned medical experts have been saying.
I was a resident when Dr. Ditchek was chief resident at SUNY Downstate. He is very bright. I trust him.
I know Rabbi Aaron Glatt MD, an infectious disease expert who was one of the brightest fellows at SUNY Downstate in the 1980s, and became a national expert in infectious diseases. I trust him.
I did a rotation in 1987 at the National Institutes of Health under Anthony Fauci decades ago. He is one of the best infectious disease experts in the world. I trust him.
I have watched a recent interview with Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, a world-renowned epidemiologist. I trust him.
I have studied medical halacha for decades, including at the annual Yarchei Kallah on Medical Halacha [www.j-c-r.org], which has featured the most prominent halachic authorities, and this sugya has been covered at length; indeed, there are clear-cut marei mekomos on this.
For example, see:
Baba Kamma 60b, including the Rashash, and see Shmiras haNefesh, perek 184, for a relatively lengthy discussion about plague, citing the Remo, Mishnah Berura, and other sources; see also Rav Tvzi Gutmans chapter on rodef in Arzei haLevanon, wherein he classifies an unintentional person who endangers others as a rodef who may be stopped via extreme means; see Rav Akiva Eigers teshuva on the plague in 1831, and the harsh measures he took to stop the plague, earning him commendation by the King of Prussia.
This plague is unique in history.
It is apparently much more deadly than seasonal flu [which typically kills up to 300,000 people every year]. Data so far suggest this virus can kill at least 10 times and perhaps 35 times that number, ie 10 million people. Furthermore, it can kills over 20% of elderly people who contract it, and 5% or more of individuals with medical conditions like heart disease, lung disease, and diabetes.
After someone contracts the virus, he/she may not show any symptoms for several days, perhaps up to 2 weeks. During that time, anyone who comes within several feet of that person, as well as someone who may touch an item or counter-top which the carrier has touched, can get infected.
As noted, going to any crowded location, such as a supermarket, can expose dozens of people to the virus.
Each infected person typically infects 2 or more others. Do the math, and youll see that someone who goes to a large minyan indoors will almost certainly infect several other people, these will infect several other people, and within 10 days or so one person may have caused infections in well over 100 people.
These are the facts as we know them.
Once informed of the facts during a White House conference call, over a dozen chassidic rebbes took action [Satmar Rebbe, Gerrer Rebbe, Belzer Rebbe, etc], essentially closing their shuls and almost all yeshivas].
The Eidah Chareidis is working with the State of Israel to deal with this.
This is a worldwide crisis, with international experts trying to prevent what has happened in countries like Italy, where a lackadaisical response has led to the death of thousands.
What is the danger? With such high numbers of people becoming sick, hospitals may be overwhelmed. There are simply not enough ICU beds nor enough ventilators for the number of people expected at present to become seriously ill. Ask people working in hospitals or ask Hatzolah members to verify the increasing number of members of our community who have to be hospitalized.
When many people do not follow directives, the ratio will only grow, and more people will die, chas vsholom.
Is it worth it for people to die because you want to go to minyan?
If someone needs food, there are people who are not infected or who have recovered who might be able to help. There are delivery services. Food is a necessity to stay alive. Davening in a minyan is not a necessity to stay alive. We would not steal food from someone to stay alive, would we? Yet, we are willing to cause the death of someone so that we can go to a minyan?
Finally, articles in the NY Times about supposed defiance by the chassidic community have gone viral. Millions of people are being taught that frum Jews do not care about their very lives, and are willfully spreadling a fatal disease. This is beyond a chillul HaShem. This is creating a sakanah for Yidden that makes the phrase mipnai aivah inadequate, and recall that we are mechalel Shabbos mipnai aivah.
Dont let speculation, ignorance or a false frumkeit [see Alei Shor on frumkeit] stand in the way of protecting your life, the lives of your friends and neighbors, and the lives of our elderly and those with medical conditions.
Post by: shwarmabob on March 19, 2020, 01:51:32 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/new-jersey-cops-break-up-two-large-weddings-amid-coronavirus-restrictions/
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 02:30:54 PM
Post by: chbochur on March 19, 2020, 02:36:27 PM
Has anyone heard any guidance about what happens to קריאת התורה of ויקהל-פקודי and פרשת החודש? Will they be lumped together with ויקרא (assuming by then we will be allowed to congregate)?From your local rabbonim
https://asktherav.com/tashlumin-of-krias-hatorah-due-to-the-coronavirus-outbreak-forcing-shuls-to-close/
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 19, 2020, 03:53:25 PM
Post by: YaDrebin95 on March 19, 2020, 04:10:25 PM
Has anyone heard any guidance about what happens to קריאת התורה of ויקהל-פקודי and פרשת החודש? Will they be lumped together with ויקרא (assuming by then we will be allowed to congregate)?
I received this on a WhatsApp chat, written by R' Kelinman:
Please be aware of the following halachic considerations which arise in this unique situation (reviewed by Maran Harav Shmuel Kamenetsky, Shlita).
1. It is preferable daven shacharis kvasikin (some poskim compare the zechus of tefilla kvasikin to tefila btzibbur).
2. As there are no time constraints and no need to keep up with a minyan, you should say Korbanos including pittum haketores - especially during this precarious time.
3. It is preferable to daven shmone esrei by a wall. In general, one should daven in a quiet, designated place, with shoes & proper attire, as is appropriate for kavod hatefilla. Remember - WE NEED THE TEFILLOS NOW MORE THAN EVER.
4. Tachnun is to be said seated, but without nefilas apayim.
5. Since you will be davening byechidus, once Zman Mincha Ktana has arrived, eating more than 2 kzaysim of mezonos, engaging in work or napping, is forbidden, until you daven Mincha. If you appoint a shomer to remind you, then you may eat & work.
6. Upon Tzeis Hakochavim, eating more than 2 kzaysim of mezonos, engaging in work or napping, is forbidden, until you say krias shma & daven Maariv. If you appoint a shomer to remind you, then you may eat & work.
7. On Shabbos you should read the Parsha & Haftorah from a Chumash. This can count as one of the two times of Mikra for the obligation of Shnayim Mikra Vechad Targum.
8. On Shabbos you should only say the Yekum Purkan which pertains to the individual, not the one pertaining to the tzibbur.
9. On Shabbos Mincha you should say vani tefilasi etc. even though there is no krias hatorah.
Wishing everyone all the best, & with tefillos for yeshuas Hashem bkarov,
Daniel Osher Kleinman
Post by: dealfinder11 on March 19, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
@dealfinder11 will tell you that it's because they closed the shuls and yeshivas...
We all got doomed by purim. And head-in-the-sand mentality. Clothing stores were jammed as of yesterday. I spoke to a mohel today who told me he had 3 brissim today. @ one of them, it was business as usual. Hashem yishmor. Let's hope there is some substance behind this potential cure.
To be clear, i was never dismissive of the need to take measures to prevent the disease. I personally have been ahead of the curve in Lakewood (though admittedly and unfortunately that's not saying much).
Post by: good sam on March 19, 2020, 04:20:09 PM
Don't daven maariv before tzeis.
Don't say baruch hashem leolam by maariv.
Post by: avromie7 on March 19, 2020, 04:54:19 PM
Some other important things to keep in mind:Source for #2?
Don't daven maariv before tzeis.
Don't say baruch hashem leolam by maariv.
AYLOR because there are different shitos, the post above says to say tachnun without nefilas apayim, however R' Moshe holds not to say tachnum unless it's in a shul or a minyan kavuah
Paging @aygart
Post by: Tomy on March 19, 2020, 04:58:48 PM
The reason they did so is because ppl were going to the 770 backyard and it was also full. They are closing the main dorm for bochurim from Monday on, hopefully they will all go back to Israel (quarantined).
Why you seem so angry at chabad students?
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 05:28:08 PM
Why you seem so angry at chabad students?Chabad students are perfectly fine in general. Some of them didn't follow the rules because of their personal believes. I'm writing 'hopefully' because they can't technically stay all day in a small room on their bed (they have nowhere else to be), they are involuntary spreading the virus even more. By being in Israel with their families, they can have a proper quarantine or any special care they need.
Post by: Galitzyaner on March 19, 2020, 05:46:37 PM
Chabad students are perfectly fine in general. Some of them didn't follow the rules because of their personal believes. I'm writing 'hopefully' because they can't technically stay all day in a small room on their bed (they have nowhere else to be), they are involuntary spreading the virus even more. By being in Israel with their families, they can have a proper quarantine or any special care they need.No different than students of any other group.
Post by: israshot on March 19, 2020, 05:48:37 PM
No different than students of any other group.Did I contrast them to anyone else? What's your point?
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2020, 05:53:58 PM
No different than students of any other group.
Which other yeshiva is fully operational on Pesach under normal circumstances? You are talking about hundreds who had no plans of leaving Crown Heights before ראש חודש חשוון ה׳תשפ״א.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 20, 2020, 10:47:50 AM
Post by: ExGingi on March 20, 2020, 01:22:03 PM
http://jpress.org.il/Olive/APA/NLI_heb/SharedView.Article.aspx?href=HMZ%2F1892%2F10%2F03&id=Ar00301&sk=F2A606D5
Post by: shwarmabob on March 20, 2020, 01:32:27 PM
Yesterday someone proudly told me they didn't have a single case in KJ...
Post by: Tomy on March 20, 2020, 02:15:32 PM
Chabad students are perfectly fine in general.
At this time there is no point on blaming others which is very easy to do, be calm and accept the situation, you do not have the power to change their minds of those who are not behaving especially they're still in early 20's
I don't know if you consider yourself a Chabad chossid, but if yes just show the example of Chabad..
Post by: israshot on March 20, 2020, 02:17:58 PM
At this time there is no point on blaming others which is very easy to do, be calm and accept the situation, you do not have the power to change their minds of those who are not behaving especially they're still in early 20'sI don't know why you think I'm blaming anyone. You should read what I've wrote before.
I don't know if you consider yourself a Chabad chossid, but if yes just show the example of Chabad..
Post by: zale on March 20, 2020, 02:30:44 PM
This is okay in theory. However, since people cant be trusted to keep their distance properly, I am against this. But then again, Im just a פשוטע איד, so what do I know?
In any case, it seems like Satmar is running a week behind everyone else.
Post by: ah giten on March 20, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
עס וועט נישט זיין מינינם קריאת התורה אין קרית יואל pic.twitter.com/wFBOAoUhtY
— Hasidic2 (@hasidic_1) March 20, 2020
Post by: shwarmabob on March 20, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
BH they changed their mindעס וועט נישט זיין מינינם קריאת התורה אין קרית יואל pic.twitter.com/wFBOAoUhtY
— Hasidic2 (@hasidic_1) March 20, 2020
Post by: Luvisrael on March 20, 2020, 03:40:36 PM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/03/urgent-message-from-lakewood-rabbonim-dont-make-any-indoor-or-outdoor-minyanim.html
Post by: dovy2 on March 21, 2020, 11:43:04 PM
Post by: etech0 on March 21, 2020, 11:43:44 PM
Now that I'm nearing the 72 hour fever-clean mark, and based on leading US consensus that one doesn't get it twice, can we open a "survivors" minyan?Where does the 72 hour rule come from?
Does it also depend on if you still have other symptoms?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 21, 2020, 11:51:18 PM
Now that I'm nearing the 72 hour fever-clean mark, and based on leading US consensus that one doesn't get it twice, can we open a "survivors" minyan?
No.
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 12:24:04 AM
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 12:27:52 AM
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 12:29:31 AM
The frum thing to do is to listen to the rabbonim who are saying not to make these minyanim.
my neighbor usually has all Shabbos minyanim in his dining room, this week he sent a message that he is closed, someone came Shabbos morning to borrow the sefer torah, he said no with a aleph
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 12:31:12 AM
The frum thing to do is to listen to the rabbonim who are saying not to make these minyanim.This was my point. As Rav Uren Reich said, "be machmir on hatzalas nefashos"
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 12:33:46 AM
my neighbor usually has all Shabbos minyanim in his dining room, this week he sent a message that he is closed, someone came Shabbos morning to borrow the sefer torah, he said no with a alephA neighbor of mine made and invited friends and family. I didn't join even though I could have stayed on my own deck. This is even though I am a chiyuv. Had it just been everyone from their own yard I would have joined from my deck. The zchus for the neshama is to listen to the rabbonim.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 12:38:10 AM
A neighbor of mine made and invited friends and family. I didn't join even though I could have stayed on my own deck. This is even though I am a chiyuv. Had it just been everyone from their own yard I would have joined from my deck. The zchus for the neshama is to listen to the rabbonim.Why not join from your deck? You won't change people anyway.
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 12:39:30 AM
A neighbor of mine made and invited friends and family. I didn't join even though I could have stayed on my own deck. This is even though I am a chiyuv. Had it just been everyone from their own yard I would have joined from my deck. The zchus for the neshama is to listen to the rabbonim.It seems that right now for some reason G-d wants us praying and learning in the home....who knows, maybe the purpose is to strengthen our families in davening and learning.
Post by: yelped on March 22, 2020, 12:39:47 AM
Why not join from your deck? You won't change people anyway.People shouldn't learn from him. It's not a joke.
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 12:40:39 AM
Why not join from your deck? You won't change people anyway.שמוע מזבח טוב
Hashem wants us to listen to the rabbonim. I will have nothing to do with a minyan made in defiance. That is not frumkeit. It is hefkerus. That my children see that I listen to what every Rov in town said to do is much more important than tfila "btzibur".
This is besides that joining from different places is only bshaas hadchack. Once the rabbonim say not to do it then it can no longer qualify.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 12:40:45 AM
People shouldn't learn from him. It's not a joke.Staying each on their own deck is not a problem.
Post by: israshot on March 22, 2020, 12:40:50 AM
Now that I'm nearing the 72 hour fever-clean mark, and based on leading US consensus that one doesn't get it twice, can we open a "survivors" minyan?What are they saying about this case?
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/484942-japan-confirms-first-case-of-person-reinfected
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 12:43:58 AM
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 22, 2020, 12:44:03 AM
Staying each on their own deck is not a problem.Yes it is. You're playing with people's lives.
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 12:46:59 AM
Staying each on their own deck is not a problem.See what I added after you posted this.
שמוע מזבח טוב
Hashem wants us to listen to the rabbonim. I will have nothing to do with a minyan made in defiance. That is not frumkeit. It is hefkerus. That my children see that I listen to what every Rov in town said to do is much more important than tfila "btzibur".
This is besides that joining from different places is only bshaas hadchack. Once the rabbonim say not to do it then it can no longer qualify.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 12:52:13 AM
Yes it is. You're playing with people's lives.People might jump off the deck, I got you.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 12:54:15 AM
See what I added after you posted this.Aha, makes sense.
Post by: good sam on March 22, 2020, 12:55:31 AM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 22, 2020, 12:55:35 AM
People might jump off the deck, I got you.Stupid jokes like these really dont help. This isnt one big joke . This is serious. If its not the rabbanims clear psak to not hold minyanim period that will do it for you, maybe take a look at whats happening in the hospitals. Maybe that will wake you up.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 12:57:24 AM
Stupid jokes like these really dont help. This isnt one big joke . This is serious.::) ::)
We are talking of people staying on their own decks, not gathering together.
Post by: ah giten on March 22, 2020, 01:03:15 AM
שבת ביינאכט אין וויליאמסבורג pic.twitter.com/aZZNCEk2CV
— Hasidic2 (@hasidic_1) March 22, 2020
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 01:03:17 AM
::) ::)We are talking about joining with people who are gathering together.
We are talking of people staying on their own decks, not gathering together.
Post by: Eliyohu on March 22, 2020, 01:05:08 AM
This is besides that joining from different places is only bshaas hadchack. Once the rabbonim say not to do it then it can no longer qualify.
Please question is purely להגדיל תורה ... (Mostly) Not practical purposes...
Do you have sources for such a situation as to what would be considered tefillah b'tzibur as far as distance from each other? Is porches considered a diff room?
What Kol Chai with minyanim on the radio to be considered bzman shatzibur mispallim etc..
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 01:14:20 AM
Please question is purely להגדיל תורה ... (Mostly) Not practical purposes...
Do you have sources for such a situation as to what would be considered tefillah b'tzibur as far as distance from each other? Is porches considered a diff room?
What Kol Chai with minyanim on the radio to be considered bzman shatzibur mispallim etc..
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 01:15:42 AM
We are talking about joining with people who are gathering together.Interesting, because I'd say the opposite is true. They aren't playing with a full deck while you are....
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 01:17:45 AM
Interesting, because I'd say the opposite is true. They aren't playing with a full deck while you are....OMG Miscommunication at its best, need to activate zoom
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 01:17:58 AM
Rav Heineman says there is no point in davening the same time as others if you aren't together halachicly. (You don't have to worry, as among the thousands of Jews in the world, you are certainly davening at the same time as many others)
Please question is purely להגדיל תורה ... (Mostly) Not practical purposes...
Do you have sources for such a situation as to what would be considered tefillah b'tzibur as far as distance from each other? Is porches considered a diff room?
What Kol Chai with minyanim on the radio to be considered bzman shatzibur mispallim etc..
Post by: yuneeq on March 22, 2020, 01:18:32 AM
Staying each on their own deck is not a problem.
The problem is that you tell your friends how you made you minyan, and your neighbor sends a whatsapp picture - "look! we were still able to make a minyan!". The next guy thinks we will also do outdoors, but doesn't realize you shouldn't be within 6 feet, or after davening goes to shmooze with his buddies. You don't need to theorize about this, there are still dozens of pictures and videos of people on top of each other that have no idea how the virus transmits, or perhaps they simply don't care. People dancing with interlocked arms - at least they're not touching hands they're all good!
The rabbonim are not stupid. They know that it is physically possible to make a safe minyan. Yet they banned even safe minyanim due to the huge outbreak of idiocy that has overcome Jewish communities. No minyan is a safe minyan.
Post by: chevron on March 22, 2020, 01:21:24 AM
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 01:37:36 AM
if you have extra time on hand you can read the comments too
Quote
אני לא מחזיק שני מכשירים, שקרן, אני מגיב ממחשב ולא מסמארטפון או אייפון טמא, שאפילו עם סינון יש הבדל גדול בין איפון קטן שנכנס לכיס וממכר כי אתה עם זה 24 שעות ולמחשב שאתה נמצא שם רק מספר שעות ביום, זה הבדל גדול,
Post by: chevron on March 22, 2020, 01:47:43 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/352150.html
if you have extra time on hand you can read the comments too
That made me laugh
Post by: TimT on March 22, 2020, 02:04:38 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/352150.htmlWhy isnt every rabbi ordering this ?
if you have extra time on hand you can read the comments too
Post by: yesitsme on March 22, 2020, 02:09:37 AM
Post by: CountValentine on March 22, 2020, 07:31:44 AM
Is that @Dan and @jj1000
Post by: good sam on March 22, 2020, 08:22:01 AM
Is that @Dan and @jj1000That joke has been banned
Post by: CountValentine on March 22, 2020, 08:35:39 AM
That joke has been bannedI thought it was the @Dan joke that was banned?
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2020, 08:43:16 AM
Siman 55 13-20
Please question is purely להגדיל תורה ... (Mostly) Not practical purposes...
Do you have sources for such a situation as to what would be considered tefillah b'tzibur as far as distance from each other? Is porches considered a diff room?
What Kol Chai with minyanim on the radio to be considered bzman shatzibur mispallim etc..
Post by: Tomy on March 22, 2020, 11:45:22 AM
I don't know why you think I'm blaming anyone. You should read what I've wrote before.
Maybe read again what you wrote before?
You're acting like someone that he's father has tested positive, you're taking it too personal
Post by: israshot on March 22, 2020, 11:48:56 AM
Maybe read again what you wrote before?Not only my father, but my mother also and 3 siblings.
You're acting like someone that he's father has tested positive, you're taking it too personal
Post by: Tomy on March 22, 2020, 11:52:00 AM
Not only my father, but my mother also and 3 siblings.
So it is very personal, that's the reason why you're acting the way you act
Post by: chbochur on March 22, 2020, 11:53:50 AM
טזבַּמֶּה דְּבָרִים אֲמוּרִים? כְּשֶׁהָעוֹמְדִים בַּחוּץ אֵינָם נִרְאִים לְהָעוֹמְדִים בִּפְנִים,קיב אֲבָל מִי שֶׁמַּרְאֶה פָּנָיו לְהָעוֹמְדִים בְּבֵית הַכְּנֶסֶת, אֲפִלּוּ הוּא עוֹמֵד אֲחוֹרֵי בֵּית הַכְּנֶסֶת וּמַרְאֶה לָהֶם פָּנִים דֶּרֶךְ חַלּוֹן שֶׁבֵּינֵיהֶם, אֲפִלּוּ גָּבוֹהַּ כַּמָּה קוֹמוֹת, אֲפִלּוּ אֵינוֹ רָחָב ד' מִצְטָרֵף עִמָּהֶם לַעֲשָרָה.
Please question is purely להגדיל תורה ... (Mostly) Not practical purposes...
Do you have sources for such a situation as to what would be considered tefillah b'tzibur as far as distance from each other? Is porches considered a diff room?
What Kol Chai with minyanim on the radio to be considered bzman shatzibur mispallim etc..
אֲבָל מִי שֶׁאֵינוֹ מַרְאֶה פָּנִים לָהֶם, אֲפִלּוּ עוֹמֵד עַל גַּבֵּיהֶן מִלְמַעְלָה עַל גַּג בֵּית הַכְּנֶסֶת אֵינוֹ מִצְטָרֵף עִמָּהֶם,קיד בֵּין שֶׁעוֹמֵד עַל הַגָּג מַמָּשׁ בֵּין שֶׁעוֹמֵד עַל עֳבִי הַכְּתָלִים שֶׁל בֵּית הַכְּנֶסֶת, שֶׁגַּם עֳבִי הַכְּתָלִים אֵינָם נִגְרָרִים אַחַר תּוֹכָם לִהְיוֹת נִדּוֹן כִּלְפָנִים אַף עַל פִּיקטו שֶׁאֵינוֹ מַרְאֶה פָּנָיו לָהֶם:
שוע"ר סי' נה סעי' טז
Post by: israshot on March 22, 2020, 12:15:47 PM
So it is very personal, that's the reason why you're acting the way you actDon't open a new username just to bash me here.
@ Admin please check his IP for a duplicate account.
Post by: CountValentine on March 22, 2020, 12:18:32 PM
Don't open a new username just to bash me here.All the post quote you. @Tomy that is pretty low.
@ Admin please check his IP for a duplicate account.
Post by: EliJelly on March 22, 2020, 01:41:54 PM
Call 911I really hope no one is taking this route without consulting first a competent Ruv.
Post by: Tomy on March 22, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
Don't open a new username just to bash me here.Why would anyone do this to you?
@ Admin please check his IP for a duplicate account.
Admin will check, this is not a duplicate account
Ok, you have found a way to protect your behavior
All the post quote you. @Tomy that is pretty low.I think he realized that, but this isn't personal
Post by: CountValentine on March 22, 2020, 03:29:11 PM
I think he realized that, but this isn't personalYou make an account to go after one member and it is not personal? ::)
Post by: israshot on March 23, 2020, 10:26:52 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/8YLWHZN.jpg)
Post by: AsherO on March 23, 2020, 10:31:40 AM
In Williamsburg, on Skillman btwn Park & Myrtle.
1. Wheres the rest of the minyan.
2. Are they deluding themselves thinking theyre practicing social distancing? The degree of cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.
Post by: israshot on March 23, 2020, 10:34:18 AM
1. Wheres the rest of the minyan.It's raining, there were 2 on a balcony and 2 under a minivan tailgate.
2. Are they deluding themselves thinking theyre practicing social distancing? The degree of cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.
Post by: SamCan on March 23, 2020, 01:09:25 PM
Post by: chevron on March 23, 2020, 01:10:16 PM
Regardless if its dangerous or not from the corona standpoint, these outdoor minyanim will cause people to get sick with colds or worse
Good luck getting that taken care of with this pandemic
Post by: chevron on March 23, 2020, 01:10:47 PM
Post by: aygart on March 23, 2020, 01:11:10 PM
It's raining, there were 2 on a balcony and 2 under a minivan tailgate.The ones on the balcony may not count for a minyan if they can't see each other.
Post by: YitzyS on March 23, 2020, 02:04:33 PM
I think this minyan has a few key necessities:
- It's held outdoors, with everyone on (or in front of) their own property, so there is no danger of contamination from the chairs/tables/door handles
- Parents were told not to allow any children to be outside at the time, to avoid children walking back and forth between the adults
- The distance between each person was 20-40 feet, far enough to keep the virus away, and far enough that even should a journalist show up, there would be no angle in which it would seem that people are too close to each other
- It's not a gathering, as each person is merely standing in front of their property. Thus, it is not in violation of the law
- Most importantly, it has the approval of the local rov. Without this, I believe that all justifications would be moot
Post by: Dan on March 23, 2020, 02:07:20 PM
I've seen one minyan that I - a critic of perverted chumros - was comfortable with its existence. 12-14 individuals who live in houses around a central square all walked out of their homes at predetermined times, and joined the minyan from the front of their own properties. No one was ever within 20 or 30 feet from the next-closest person. The rov of the area, after seeing the setup, gave his approval, given that the minyan remain small and would disband should it grow beyond that very-safe manner. He did not join, though. I assume because he has told most of his neighborhood to daven at home, and he would want to be in the same boat as them.What happens on Mo/Th?
I think this minyan has a few key necessities:What do you think about such a minyan. And please don't say "stop being stupid" or some other generic remark. I would like sensible feedback on this minyan.
- It's held outdoors, with everyone on (or in front of) their own property, so there is no danger of contamination from the chairs/tables/door handles
- Parents were told not to allow any children to be outside at the time, to avoid children walking back and forth between the adults
- The distance between each person was 20-40 feet, far enough to keep the virus away, and far enough that even should a journalist show up, there would be no angle in which it would seem that people are too close to each other
- It's not a gathering, as each person is merely standing in front of their property. Thus, it is not in violation of the law
- Most importantly, it has the approval of the local rov. Without this, I believe that all justifications would be moot
Post by: yesitsme on March 23, 2020, 02:10:42 PM
the 1st day my kids wanted to know what these boxes and ropes are
the 2nd day they wanted to play with it
Post by: SamCan on March 23, 2020, 02:13:36 PM
I've seen one minyan that I - a critic of perverted chumros - was comfortable with its existence. 12-14 individuals who live in houses around a central square all walked out of their homes at predetermined times, and joined the minyan from the front of their own properties. No one was ever within 20 or 30 feet from the next-closest person. The rov of the area, after seeing the setup, gave his approval, given that the minyan remain small and would disband should it grow beyond that very-safe manner. He did not join, though. I assume because he has told most of his neighborhood to daven at home, and he would want to be in the same boat as them.
I think this minyan has a few key necessities:What do you think about such a minyan. And please don't say "stop being stupid" or some other generic remark. I would like sensible feedback on this minyan.
- It's held outdoors, with everyone on (or in front of) their own property, so there is no danger of contamination from the chairs/tables/door handles
- Parents were told not to allow any children to be outside at the time, to avoid children walking back and forth between the adults
- The distance between each person was 20-40 feet, far enough to keep the virus away, and far enough that even should a journalist show up, there would be no angle in which it would seem that people are too close to each other
- It's not a gathering, as each person is merely standing in front of their property. Thus, it is not in violation of the law
- Most importantly, it has the approval of the local rov. Without this, I believe that all justifications would be moot
Not sure where you are geographically, but eventually people will get sick from the weather.
Post by: yesitsme on March 23, 2020, 02:16:38 PM
and stay home one way or the other
Not sure where you are geographically, but eventually people will get sick from the weather.
except those that tovel their baby's in the מקוה ארי before the bris will continue to daven outside
Post by: YitzyS on March 23, 2020, 02:17:02 PM
What happens on Mo/Th?There is no kriyas haTorah. On shabbos, they had a 40 minute break for everyone to go inside and lein.
Obviously, this is weather permitting. The point is to maintain the minyan only if it is 100 percent safe to do so. Not 99. 100.
Not sure where you are geographically, but eventually people will get sick from the weather.
Post by: zale on March 23, 2020, 02:37:49 PM
I was told to be makpid to daven at home, so I'll do just that
the 1st day my kids wanted to know what these boxes and ropes are
the 2nd day they wanted to play with it
(Unfortunately?) my kids know very well what those boxes and ropes are.
Post by: ah giten on March 23, 2020, 02:43:23 PM
What happens on Mo/Th?the picture above had a juge minyan shabos. shachris was from porches and קריאת התורה they had someone screaming the קריאה and 1 making sure the distancing is kept, and not allowing the kids out.
Post by: zh cohen on March 23, 2020, 02:44:57 PM
the picture above had a juge minyan shabos. shachris was from porches and קריאת התורה they had someone screaming the קריאה and 1 making sure the distancing is kept, and not allowing the kids out.
Did they give out aliyos?
Post by: zale on March 23, 2020, 02:45:50 PM
I've seen one minyan that I - a critic of perverted chumros - was comfortable with its existence. 12-14 individuals who live in houses around a central square all walked out of their homes at predetermined times, and joined the minyan from the front of their own properties. No one was ever within 20 or 30 feet from the next-closest person. The rov of the area, after seeing the setup, gave his approval, given that the minyan remain small and would disband should it grow beyond that very-safe manner. He did not join, though. I assume because he has told most of his neighborhood to daven at home, and he would want to be in the same boat as them.
I think this minyan has a few key necessities:What do you think about such a minyan. And please don't say "stop being stupid" or some other generic remark. I would like sensible feedback on this minyan.
- It's held outdoors, with everyone on (or in front of) their own property, so there is no danger of contamination from the chairs/tables/door handles
- Parents were told not to allow any children to be outside at the time, to avoid children walking back and forth between the adults
- The distance between each person was 20-40 feet, far enough to keep the virus away, and far enough that even should a journalist show up, there would be no angle in which it would seem that people are too close to each other
- It's not a gathering, as each person is merely standing in front of their property. Thus, it is not in violation of the law
- Most importantly, it has the approval of the local rov. Without this, I believe that all justifications would be moot
My opinion is that if our rabbonim of all walks of life have ruled that we need to daven alone, then we need to daven alone.
We criticize women who learn Daf Yomi or put on Tefilin under the guise of "they are not obligated", yet we see no problem with outdoor minyanim when we are not obligated?
Post by: Ergel on March 23, 2020, 02:46:21 PM
What happens on Mo/Th?Major problem at the outdoor minyan I davened at this morning. Considering not going back :(
Post by: ah giten on March 23, 2020, 02:48:07 PM
Did they give out aliyos?yes. they didn't have 3 ppl standing closely around. just בעל קורא, and עולה.
and they stood as far as possible, covered face with טלית
Post by: yesitsme on March 23, 2020, 02:49:57 PM
yes. they didn't have 3 ppl standing closely around. just בעל קורא, and עולה.Permitted by?
and they stood as far as possible, covered face with טלית
Post by: chevron on March 23, 2020, 02:51:24 PM
Post by: chevron on March 23, 2020, 02:52:17 PM
Permitted by?
Eh they make up the rules as they go...
Post by: Dan on March 23, 2020, 02:59:02 PM
Major problem at the outdoor minyan I davened at this morning. Considering not going back :(That's what I was afraid of.
Post by: ah giten on March 23, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Permitted by?Im not saying its perfect. but its better than what you thought...
let's face it. most people break the rules here and there. My cahier just sneezed on all my gorceries...
But I can't just not go to the grocery.... Correct?
so I guess these people feel the need to break the rule, once a week, for younger poeple, and taking the most precautions possible.
I wouldn't of wanted to be called up, and need to refuse being עולה.
Post by: ah giten on March 23, 2020, 03:02:01 PM
That's what I was afraid of.we have minyan from porches every day. we don't have a sefer torah.
Post by: Yehuda_H on March 23, 2020, 03:35:21 PM
1. Preparation can potentially expose non-participants
(ex. My neighbors grandparents have a sefer torah in their house - when you take it out for the minyanim, you are putting the elderly at risk)
2. Setting a bad example:
Other people see a minyan, and want to join. Or do their own, but without the proper social distancing.
3. Goes against psak
Virtually every single posek in every affected country all around the world are saying "no minyanim at all!" Once you start making exceptions for one, you are inviting other people to make exceptions; and not everyone is going to be as careful as you.
4. Affects other household members
If you are davening on your porch with your neighbors on their porches, you are preventing the people inside your houses from taking socially distant walks etc. Although if early enough I guess that's not really a problem.
All else being equal, if you live in a small bungalow type community, davening with each other and no one else on your front porches while being socially distant, I *guess* you're ok. In larger urban areas, such as NYC (including Boro Park) I can't see this is being feasible. By the time you're three houses away you can't hear anything unless you're shouting.
Post by: ah giten on March 23, 2020, 03:37:50 PM
[/quote]
backyard. works great.
Post by: lakewood34 on March 23, 2020, 03:49:41 PM
Major problem at the outdoor minyan I davened at this morning. Considering not going back :(
WHAt problem halachic problem or social distancing problem
Post by: Yehuda_H on March 23, 2020, 03:52:22 PM
By the time you're three houses away you can't hear anything unless you're shouting.Those are pretty rare in Queens and Brooklyn ;)
backyard. works great.
Post by: yesitsme on March 23, 2020, 03:52:59 PM
WHAt problem halachic problem or social distancing problemhalachic problem
הוראת שעה
Post by: Ergel on March 23, 2020, 03:59:40 PM
WHAt problem halachic problem or social distancing problemSocial distancing
Post by: Ergel on March 23, 2020, 04:00:05 PM
Post by: YitzyS on March 23, 2020, 04:14:33 PM
3. Goes against psakListening to the recording of Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen that was circulated, he implies that this situation would be okay, as he ties minyanim specifically to gatherings. I'm not saying for sure, but it could be that this would not be included in his message.
Virtually every single posek in every affected country all around the world are saying "no minyanim at all!" Once you start making exceptions for one, you are inviting other people to make exceptions; and not everyone is going to be as careful as you.
Post by: YitzyS on March 24, 2020, 02:45:46 PM
Minyan in Williamsburg pic.twitter.com/ye0AtBToKi
— Jacob Kornbluh (@jacobkornbluh) March 18, 2020
Invalid Tweet ID
Post by: YitzyS on March 24, 2020, 02:47:58 PM
The minyan I saw was more spread out than these, and each person was davening on their property, so they didn't have to pass each other on the way in or out.Minyan in Williamsburg pic.twitter.com/ye0AtBToKi
— Jacob Kornbluh (@jacobkornbluh) March 18, 2020
Invalid Tweet ID
Post by: Luvisrael on March 24, 2020, 03:28:28 PM
Listening to the recording of Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen that was circulated, he implies that this situation would be okay, as he ties minyanim specifically to gatherings. I'm not saying for sure, but it could be that this would not be included in his message.he says no minyanim anywhere. Inside or outside. Period.
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/03/urgent-message-from-lakewood-rabbonim-dont-make-any-indoor-or-outdoor-minyanim.html
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 12:51:07 AM
Post by: yesitsme on March 29, 2020, 12:53:54 AM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 01:02:58 AM
I opened my door today in the morning to find people davening on my front porchyou mean a minyan ?did u yell bloody murderers?!
Post by: cmey on March 29, 2020, 01:04:53 AM
you mean a minyan ?did u yell bloody murderers?!
Hatzolah ran out of ambulances tonight. How can people still be in denial?
https://veltnews.com/lakewood-hatzolah-ran-out-of-ambulances-more-calls-than-ever-stay-inside/
Post by: yesitsme on March 29, 2020, 01:07:34 AM
you mean a minyan ?did u yell bloody murderers?!my neighbor had a minyan so some were standing on his porch, some on mine, some on his steps to the basement and some on mine
they lained ויקהל פקודי And ויקרא
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 01:08:48 AM
my neighbor had a minyan so some were standing on his porch, some on mine, some on his steps to the basement and some on mineidk , I would try to break up the minyan on the spot.
Post by: EliJelly on March 29, 2020, 01:37:32 AM
my neighbor had a minyan so some were standing on his porch, some on mine, some on his steps to the basement and some on mineMany reasons not to read ויקהל פקודי this week, (separate sefer, and 3 Parshiyos total), given the importance of social distancing, everybody could rely on that.
they lained ויקהל פקודי And ויקרא
Post by: zale on March 29, 2020, 01:50:05 AM
The minyan I saw was more spread out than these, and each person was davening on their property, so they didn't have to pass each other on the way in or out.
No means no means no.
Rabbonim said no. It makes no difference how far apart everyone is or where they are standing.
NO MEANS NO.
Post by: EliJelly on March 29, 2020, 01:55:14 AM
No means no means no.Fyi, יש ויש
Rabbonim said no. It makes no difference how far apart everyone is or where they are standing.
NO MEANS NO.
Post by: danR on March 29, 2020, 02:24:47 AM
Maykil on pikuach nefesh
What is wrong with people
Post by: Luvtotravel on March 29, 2020, 03:18:02 AM
Post by: yuneeq on March 29, 2020, 03:38:54 AM
joined minyan today. everyone on own porch. whats wrong with that? how is it different than the italian viral singing clip?
The problem is that you tell your friends how you made you minyan, and your neighbor sends a whatsapp picture - "look! we were still able to make a minyan!". The next guy thinks we will also do outdoors, but doesn't realize you shouldn't be within 6 feet, or after davening goes to shmooze with his buddies. You don't need to theorize about this, there are still dozens of pictures and videos of people on top of each other that have no idea how the virus transmits, or perhaps they simply don't care. People dancing with interlocked arms - at least they're not touching hands they're all good!
The rabbonim are not stupid. They know that it is physically possible to make a safe minyan. Yet they banned even safe minyanim due to the huge outbreak of idiocy that has overcome Jewish communities. No minyan is a safe minyan.
Post by: cmey on March 29, 2020, 05:08:48 AM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 10:27:10 AM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 10:34:27 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/p3kMVR9/7-C25-CF80-B2-EA-4488-95-A8-BD1-D3-F2-B754-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FBdyZ0j)Everyone asking the same question...does he or any other rav or Rebbe who banned minyanim have a minyan? The answer is most definitely yes. So its do as I say, not as I do.
Bobov 45 Rebbe banned minyanim One of his dayanim is my next door neighbor who has Corona and has been quarantined in his house for the last 10 days for sure. His brothers have been hospitalized with it. Yet, this morning I found him on his back porch davening with a minyan behind our houses. Yes he was more than 6 feet away from the next guy. But as Rabbi Freundlich said all bets are off when youre outdoors.
What is wrong with these people?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 10:38:37 AM
Everyone asking the same question...does he or any other rav or Rebbe who banned minyanim have a minyan? The answer is most definitely yes. So its do as I say, not as I do.please dont make things up. Definitely doesnt help the situation.
Bobov 45 Rebbe banned minyanim One of his dayanim is my next door neighbor who has Corona and has been quarantined in his house for the last 10 days for sure. His brothers have been hospitalized with it. Yet, this morning I found him on his back porch davening with a minyan behind our houses. Yes he was more than 6 feet away from the next guy. But as Rabbi Freundlich said all bets are off when youre outdoors.
What is wrong with these people?
Post by: MisterHock on March 29, 2020, 10:44:17 AM
Everyone asking the same question...does he or any other rav or Rebbe who banned minyanim have a minyan? The answer is most definitely yes. So its do as I say, not as I do.Please post his name and a picture of this minyan. This Rabbi is a hypocrite and sick.
Bobov 45 Rebbe banned minyanim One of his dayanim is my next door neighbor who has Corona and has been quarantined in his house for the last 10 days for sure. His brothers have been hospitalized with it. Yet, this morning I found him on his back porch davening with a minyan behind our houses. Yes he was more than 6 feet away from the next guy. But as Rabbi Freundlich said all bets are off when youre outdoors.
What is wrong with these people?
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 10:45:05 AM
please dont make things up. Definitely doesnt help the situation.What did I make up?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 10:46:00 AM
What did I make up?any other rav.Thats a huge gross slander. Please stop this.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 10:47:47 AM
any other rav.Thats a huge gross slander. Please stop this.OK. I will qualify the question...Do any of these rabbanim have their own minyan? Yes MANY do. Does that make you feel better?
Post by: lubaby on March 29, 2020, 10:50:43 AM
OK. I will qualify the question...Do any of these rabbanim have their own minyan? Yes MANY do. Does that make you feel better?#NotMyRav
Post by: yitzgar on March 29, 2020, 10:51:22 AM
Post by: yuneeq on March 29, 2020, 10:55:32 AM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 10:57:28 AM
That post from R' Chaim doesn't say anything about those who haven't been sick or in contact with someone sickDid anyone read the irresponsible article from Yonason Rosenblum in this weeks Mishpacha? https://mishpacha.com/a-journal-of-the-plague-year/
Lets now say it out loud...NOTHING THAT RABBANIM (OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER) ARE SAYING IN E'Y APPLIES TO THE CURRENT SITUATION IN THE USA
Post by: yitzgar on March 29, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
Did anyone read the irresponsible article from Yonason Rosenblum in this weeks Mishpacha? https://mishpacha.com/a-journal-of-the-plague-year/What's irresponsible about this article?
Lets now say it out loud...NOTHING THAT RABBANIM (OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER) ARE SAYING IN E'Y APPLIES TO THE CURRENT SITUATION IN THE USA
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 11:06:45 AM
What's irresponsible about this article?And the decisions are being made in a climate of hysteria. CNN, for instance, proclaims a pandemic unprecedented in modern times. Modern times would include the Spanish Flu of a century ago, which is estimated to have claimed 20 to 50 million lives worldwide. And yet today, total deaths from COVID-19 worldwide number less than 7,000, and of those all but a thousand have been in three countries --China, Italy, and Iran. (The epicenters in the latter two countries were in areas where large numbers of Chinese workers were employed on Chinese funded projects.) Chinas apparent success in bringing the rate of new infections down to near zero is the most optimistic news of all.
Post by: VacationLover on March 29, 2020, 11:07:13 AM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 11:07:32 AM
What's irresponsible about this article?Did you even read it? or TL;DR
Post by: yuneeq on March 29, 2020, 11:13:18 AM
And the decisions are being made in a climate of hysteria. CNN, for instance, proclaims a pandemic unprecedented in modern times. Modern times would include the Spanish Flu of a century ago, which is estimated to have claimed 20 to 50 million lives worldwide. And yet today, total deaths from COVID-19 worldwide number less than 7,000, and of those all but a thousand have been in three countries --China, Italy, and Iran. (The epicenters in the latter two countries were in areas where large numbers of Chinese workers were employed on Chinese funded projects.) Chinas apparent success in bringing the rate of new infections down to near zero is the most optimistic news of all.
When was this written? Death count already 4.5x higher.
But yes hes a fool for writing all this, no need to read further.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
When was this written? Death count already 4.5x higher.Mishpacha came out on Wednesday.
But yes hes a fool for writing all this, no need to read further.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:42:52 AM
There is cognitive dissonance until it hits.
Reb Chaim coming out strongly now sounds nice but it's BS. It's 2 months too late.
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on March 29, 2020, 12:01:20 PM
Reb Chaim coming out strongly now sounds nice but it's BS. It's 2 months too late.
Dont you think you may be crossing a line by saying that?
Post by: MisterHock on March 29, 2020, 12:02:34 PM
Reb Chaim coming out strongly now sounds nice but it's BS. It's 2 months too late.Too late or late?
Post by: good sam on March 29, 2020, 12:09:40 PM
When was this written? Death count already 4.5x higher.
But yes hes a fool for writing all this, no need to read further.
Mishpacha came out on Wednesday.How on earth can anyone be pointing to the "low" death count BEFORE THE PANDEMIC IS OVER??
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:11:13 PM
Dont you think you may be crossing a line by saying that?
I'm not attacking him personally I'm attacking this mentality. I personally think he has no idea of what's going on. His inner circle is controlling everything.. or they were at least..
Now I get ads from kupat hair showing Reb Chaim etc with "it's like they saw it coming"
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 12:11:33 PM
How on earth can anyone be pointing to the "low" death count BEFORE THE PANDEMIC IS OVER??Hes pointing to...CHINA?!?!?!
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:12:00 PM
@CountValentine
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 12:12:23 PM
I'm not attacking him personally I'm attacking this mentality. I personally think he has no idea of what's going on. His inner circle is controlling everything.. or they were at least..
Now I get ads from kupat hair showing Reb Chaim etc with "it's like they saw it coming"
I have not posted on dansdeals in a very long time. But your post most made it a must!
SHUT UP. Dont spread this kind of talk. If you have an issue with god DONT BRING IT HERE NOW.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:13:26 PM
Hes pointing to...CHINA?!?!?!
A lot of people here have quoted China as if the country is being honest?!? LMAO
My mother was telling me that she found an older hamodia and some shliach In Hong Kong is quoted as saying it's not as bad as the flu.
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
Dont you think you may be crossing a line by saying that?Bashing gedolim won't get you anywhere. Unfortunately, we often don't have clear access to Rav Chaim's real opinions, so he is the last person one should be bashing in this crisis. If someone has an issue with the response of a rov of a certain shul or community - which he is not - that would maybe make sense. But talking down about rabbonim has never gotten anyone anywhere (besides for gehenim...)
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:15:25 PM
I have not posted on dansdeals in a very long time. But your most made it a must!
SHUT UP. Dont spread this kind of talk. If you have an issue with god DONT BRING IT HERE NOW.
What's God got to do with it ?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1839949/showdown-despite-police-visit-to-harav-chaim-kanievsky-the-rav-says-that-yeshivas-chadarim-cannot-be-closed.html
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 12:15:32 PM
I have not posted on dansdeals in a very long time. But your post most made it a must!You didn't read what he said.
SHUT UP. Dont spread this kind of talk. If you have an issue with god DONT BRING IT HERE NOW.
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 12:16:45 PM
You didn't read what he said.
You want me to link other posts that he said. I know where this is leading to. He starts with R' Chaim then....
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 12:17:33 PM
What's God got to do with it ?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1839949/showdown-despite-police-visit-to-harav-chaim-kanievsky-the-rav-says-that-yeshivas-chadarim-cannot-be-closed.html
Get the point I will stand up against you when it comes to bashing rabanim or the torah for that matter
Post by: shaulyaakov on March 29, 2020, 12:18:01 PM
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:19:40 PM
Bashing gedolim won't get you anywhere. Unfortunately, we often don't have clear access to Rav Chaim's real opinions, so he is the last person one should be bashing in this crisis. If someone has an issue with the response of a rov of a certain shul or community - which he is not - that would maybe make sense. But talking down about rabbonim has never gotten anyone anywhere (besides for gehenim...)
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 12:21:48 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/03/29/situation-in-bnei-brak-is-like-italy-nearly-every-chareidi-who-is-checked-is-positive/You need to be much more careful about the way you talk about rabbonim.
There is cognitive dissonance until it hits.
Reb Chaim coming out strongly now sounds nice but it's BS. It's 2 months too late.
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 12:21:56 PM
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
I will say it again SHUT UP! SHUT UP.
Stop now dont ask any more questions your posts here a disgusting.
You are not welcome in this thread.
SHUT UP
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 12:22:03 PM
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.Your statement implied that you were putting some blame on Rav Chaim for this. Always recheck your post when you write Rav Chaim and BS in the same sentence...
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:22:18 PM
You want me to link other posts that he said. I know where this is leading to. He starts with R' Chaim then....
I'm not bashing anybody personally. Maybe I did in the past and I backtracked.
Because it accomplished nothing.
I'm frustrated.. when your friend tells you about how much the grandmother suffered before she passed away.
I'm frustrated because people keep saying we didn't see this coming it's snuck up on us and then they had warning for weeks
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:22:53 PM
I will say it again SHUT UP! SHUT UP.
Stop now dont ask any more questions your posts here a disgusting.
You are not welcome in this thread.
SHUT UP
Are you senile ? I started this thread 🤣
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 12:24:07 PM
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
You can make your point with talking like a toilet.
Post by: yaakov35 on March 29, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.So stay at home say tehillim and do mitzvas. You coming here and try to change the world, yelling and getting angry will change 0. And the unnecessary שנאת חינם, I really can't imagine its doing any good.
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 12:25:05 PM
Are you senile ? I started this thread 🤣I was wondering who the guy was who spells shul with two 'L's (shull???)
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:25:56 PM
You need to be much more careful about the way you talk about rabbonim.
Ok my bad, I didn't use punctuation.
I was talking about it hand in hand with the article that I posted I don't remember if it was this thread or the other one (sometimes I just use speech to text and there's no punctuation)
The VIN article saying every chareidi tested in bnai brak came back positive etc.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:26:53 PM
I was wondering who the guy was who spells shul with two 'L's (shull???)
Is that the best you can do? I also detest cholent and don't shuckle when I daven... I'm definitely adopted.
Post by: yuneeq on March 29, 2020, 12:27:17 PM
How on earth can anyone be pointing to the "low" death count BEFORE THE PANDEMIC IS OVER??
It's sick that people need to see thousands of community members die before they are allowed to start being concerned.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
I am not bashing anybody maybe I didn't use proper grammar or punctuation.forget gihennim, maybe help your friends out in the ICU by watching what you say on a public forum! Minyanim can kill but so can disrespecting rabbanim, lashin hara and Rechilus as well!! We all agree that we are in a terrible predicament. Let us focus on doing what we can to help ourselves.
I said it's BS. Meaning this whole steps now 2 months after the virus started is late, perhaps too late I dunno.
Are you going to defend rabbanim who cause outright shfichas damim by keeping their shulls and yeshivas open ?
Now they say you have a din rodef if you go to minyan, 2 weeks ago it was "keep the yeshivas open!! It's yihareg v'al yaavor"
I have friends in ICU fighting for their lives, let me worry about my gehinom!!
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:28:24 PM
Get the point I will stand up against you when it comes to bashing rabanim or the torah for that matter
So it's assur to post links you don't approve of ? @jj1000 add this guy as a mod
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 12:29:52 PM
Ok my bad, I didn't use punctuation.Some anonymous doctor on VIN. Great source.
I was talking about it hand in hand with the article that I posted I don't remember if it was this thread or the other one (sometimes I just use speech to text and there's no punctuation)
The VIN article saying every chareidi tested in bnai brak came back positive etc.
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 12:30:04 PM
So it's assur to post links you don't approve of ? @jj1000 add this guy as a modYes Must get FDA approval.
You got my point many other people pointed out the same thing. Please Stop now is not the time we need this kind of talk.
May hashem bentch you and your friends all the best.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:30:29 PM
forget gihennim, maybe help your friends out in the ICU by watching what you say on a public forum! Minyanim can kill but so can disrespecting rabbanim, lashin hara and Rechilus as well!! We all agree that we are in a terrible predicament. Let us focus on doing what we can to help ourselves.
I'm not gonna start, you are incapable of 2 dimensional conversation.
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 12:30:46 PM
So it's assur to post links you don't approve of ? @jj1000 add this guy as a modIt is not the link. It is the way you are talking like a toilet. The same point can be made talking like a mentch. Others have managed.
Post by: yaakov35 on March 29, 2020, 12:30:52 PM
It's sick that people need to see thousands of community members die before they are allowed to start being concerned.I think your agenda is making you miss the point. Everyone here is concerned. Everyone is trying to social distance as much as possible. But some people are obsessed with death and how were all gonna die, and some are trying to Have a more positive outlook.
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 12:31:09 PM
Is that the best you can do? I also detest cholent and don't shuckle when I daven... I'm definitely adopted.Wasn't trying to get petty, just to inject some humor to lubricate this friction-heavy conversation. I do think that your comments implied Rav Chaim was at fault, but you already clarified that it was not your intention...
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:31:29 PM
Some anonymous doctor on VIN. Great source.
Maybe maybe not but it's nice of you to point that out on the other hand I've seen people argue that the Corona virus wasn't so bad at least on some anonymous stuff too on the internet and anonymous WhatsApp forwarding.
So at least people are starting to look into things
Post by: shaulyaakov on March 29, 2020, 12:33:18 PM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 12:33:41 PM
I'm not gonna start, you are incapable of 2 dimensional conversation.sorry I will not get dragged into a personal back and forth. I made my point. I sincerely hope you take it to heart.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:35:12 PM
If I were a president of a shul, I would ban those who davened at private minyanimin definence of orders from shuls for an equivalent number of weeks once shuls are back.
A friend was raving that our Rav should put them in cherem.
I said they should not be allowed back.
If the Rav paskens that you cannot make or daven with minyanim, And you violate him in public I don't think you should be allowed back
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 12:37:03 PM
Post by: yitzgar on March 29, 2020, 12:41:48 PM
A friend was raving that our Rav should put them in cherem.Yup
I said they should not be allowed back.
If the Rav paskens that you cannot make or daven with minyanim, And you violate him in public I don't think you should be allowed back
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:46:00 PM
I think your agenda is making you miss the point. Everyone here is concerned. Everyone is trying to social distance as much as possible. But some people are obsessed with death and how were all gonna die, and some are trying to Have a more positive outlook.
Why do you think I have an agenda How can you have an agenda here unless you own funeral homes?
I'm supposedly a clear embodiment of Satan.
You are like a yekke in the library , he sees a fire but you can't raise your voice in the library so he whispers that there's a fire.
When I see a danger I scream.. himmel geshray!
I also had a major fight with a close friend who said I'm not being melamed zechus on yidden who are Moser nefesh to daven and learn.
That's not the case and it's easy to judge on the internet, it's easy to take my prior expressed hashkafa and use it against me.
Personally I don't care, I cry for the niftarim.
I cry for the hundreds on life support
I had 30 surgeries and "shelo teidu od tzaar" I know the pain they are going through and 2 years ago I had to be put to sleep because I fought off the respirator.
I'm not here to disparage the rabbanim.
When I pointed this stuff out at the begining, I was mocked and shouted down.
We all erred, I'm frustrated yes.
I'm not trying to find reasons for this mageifa.
I'm not blaming anyone on purpose, I'm trying to get people to take this seriously, there are many who do not.
I pointed out repeatedly that many communities were saying that it went from 0 to 60, meanwhile many people were not taking it seriously because the community is not affected seemingly
Post by: Lurker on March 29, 2020, 12:47:06 PM
Second, @chevron made clear that his opinion is that information coming to and from Reb Chaim is being controlled by his inner circle. He also believes that coming out against minyanim today, when 2 weeks ago strong statements were made against c"v shutting schools, yeshivos, and shuls, is tantamount to shutting the barn door after the horses are running away. It's not the Rov who's being criticized, it's the information flow. You cannot rationally argue that the announcement to keep the status quo 2 weeks ago didn't have extreme repercussions.
I understand Kavod HaTorah and talking appropriately about Rabbonim and Gedolei HaDor. It's time we listened to the Torah and actually listen to doctors about what we should do, instead of waiting for Daas Torah to come out and say something. There are countless (hundreds) of letters from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, telling people that God gave the doctors the ability to heal, and it is our responsibility to listen to them. You shouldn't have to wait for your Rov to tell you to wash your hands.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 12:52:58 PM
First of all, to say everyone on this thread is doing all they can in they can in the effort to advance social distancing is garbage, considering how many people have organized or joined minyan in the last few days.
Second, @chevron made clear that his opinion is that information coming to and from Reb Chaim is being controlled by his inner circle. He also believes that coming out against minyanim today, when 2 weeks ago strong statements were made against c"v shutting schools, yeshivos, and shuls, is tantamount to shutting the barn door after the horses are running away. It's not the Rov who's being criticized, it's the information flow. You cannot rationally argue that the announcement to keep the status quo 2 weeks ago didn't have extreme repercussions.
I understand Kavod HaTorah and being talking appropriately about Rabbonim and Gedolei HaDor. It's time we listened to the Torah and actually listen to doctors about what we should do, instead of waiting for Daas Torah to come out and say something. There are countless (hundreds) of letters from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, telling people that God gave the doctors the ability to heal, and it is our responsibility to listen to them. You shouldn't have to wait for your Rov to tell you to wash your hands.
Thank you for separating my opinions and emotions and forming a concise outlay
Post by: yitzgar on March 29, 2020, 12:56:32 PM
Post by: israshot on March 29, 2020, 01:04:16 PM
Can anyone show me where R' Chaim said not to have minyanim? All I saw that he said was about people who are either sick, or in contact with someone sick or who is supposed to be in quarantine by the health ministry. It doesn't seem that he has changed his opinion.He didn't. Or to be more clear, no one asked him...
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 01:07:26 PM
Can anyone show me where R' Chaim said not to have minyanim? All I saw that he said was about people who are either sick, or in contact with someone sick or who is supposed to be in quarantine by the health ministry. It doesn't seem that he has changed his opinion.according to this article this was for a Bnei Braq. I dont know how reliable this is to begin with though...
https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1090634
Post by: Dan on March 29, 2020, 01:13:28 PM
Hes pointing to...CHINA?!?!?!This place?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-27/stacks-of-urns-in-wuhan-prompt-new-questions-of-virus-s-toll
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 01:19:42 PM
Its story's like these that frustrate me
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 01:22:57 PM
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5703520,00.html
Post by: hvaces42 on March 29, 2020, 01:24:21 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/03/29/hundreds-attend-bnei-brak-funeral-amid-criticism-of-lack-of-adherence-to-social-distancing/There was just a huge levaya in Bobov for a young person. No social distancing either. People just dont get it. I drove by and could not fathom what these people were thinking.
Its story's like these that frustrate me
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 01:27:11 PM
There was just a huge levaya in Bobov for a young person. No social distancing either. People just dont get it. I drove by and could not fathom what these people were thinking.wow. Just wow!
Post by: AsherO on March 29, 2020, 01:32:44 PM
#NotARealRov
FTFY
This is classic do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do. Real Rabbi should be more machmir on himself and not daven with a minyan.
Post by: CountValentine on March 29, 2020, 02:11:38 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepagepaywall
@CountValentine
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 02:17:50 PM
Why do you think I have an agenda How can you have an agenda here unless you own funeral homes?I have a neighbor that is busy yelling abt the minyanim but he is out smoking all day with friends and showing them videos on his phone, while in close contact. that's not a problem I guess.
I'm supposedly a clear embodiment of Satan.
You are like a yekke in the library , he sees a fire but you can't raise your voice in the library so he whispers that there's a fire.
When I see a danger I scream.. himmel geshray!
I also had a major fight with a close friend who said I'm not being melamed zechus on yidden who are Moser nefesh to daven and learn.
That's not the case and it's easy to judge on the internet, it's easy to take my prior expressed hashkafa and use it against me.
Personally I don't care, I cry for the niftarim.
I cry for the hundreds on life support
I had 30 surgeries and "shelo teidu od tzaar" I know the pain they are going through and 2 years ago I had to be put to sleep because I fought off the respirator.
I'm not here to disparage the rabbanim.
When I pointed this stuff out at the begining, I was mocked and shouted down.
We all erred, I'm frustrated yes.
I'm not trying to find reasons for this mageifa.
I'm not blaming anyone on purpose, I'm trying to get people to take this seriously, there are many who do not.
I pointed out repeatedly that many communities were saying that it went from 0 to 60, meanwhile many people were not taking it seriously because the community is not affected seemingly
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 02:20:08 PM
But it should come from Rabbanim, not from lowlifes.
Post by: good sam on March 29, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
I was speaking to our shuls rav and he said that anyone who arranges a minyan etc, Will have to answer in shamayim for undermining the psak and efforts of the rabbanim in this crisis.I assume this applies with even greater force to rabbanim who shut down their shul and continued making private minyanim.
I know of one personally, his wife is currently in the ICU. She should have a refuah shleima.
I won't name him because I'm dan him lecaf zchus that he didn't understand the severity because he's so removed from this world.
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 02:39:52 PM
paywall
https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome
https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox
Post by: mlight on March 29, 2020, 05:53:00 PM
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:18:18 PM
Shame on you for judging others. Yes it should come from rabbis, but how many rabbis had wrong judgement? They kept shuls open and now people died because of it.
You are going to get flamed for that...
Everyone knows that rabbanim can never be wrong... Like ever.. if you take a rabbi to task for sheltering and protecting a molester, yok gonna burn! Your Mama gonna burn! Your cats gonna burn!
My issue I have here is that in most recent comment points it out.. no one can question rabbanim.
Listen @mlight I'm not here to question anybody but I'm going to tell you that the way this crisis goes down.
I dunno what frum Judaism will look like the day after.. and yes I worry!!
What happens lo aleinu when yesomim grow up and someone tells them how the father died because the Rav didn't close the shull.
Do you think they will just accept it as a gezeira milmala or be angry at rabbanim?
now, you can reply to this post in two ways A you can attack me, that's fine.
B as @ah giten explained in the past, his father was mostly clueless not because he didn't care but because the advice he was given wasn't up to snuff And there were problems in the information supply chain logistics.
For that I am okay, obviously we're going to need to make changes in the future about how the frum community gets its information.
Post by: yakov116 on March 29, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
You are going to get flamed for that...
Everyone knows that rabbanim can never be wrong... Like ever.. if you take a rabbi to task for sheltering and protecting a molester, yok gonna burn! Your Mama gonna burn! Your cats gonna burn!
My issue I have here is that in most recent comment points it out.. no one can question rabbanim.
Listen @mlight I'm not here to question anybody but I'm going to tell you that the way this crisis goes down.
I dunno what frum Judaism will look like the day after.. and yes I worry!!
What happens lo aleinu when yesomim grow up and someone tells them how the father died because the Rav didn't close the shull.
Do you think they will just accept it as a gezeira milmala or be angry at rabbanim?
now, you can reply to this post in two ways A you can attack me, that's fine.
B as @ah giten explained in the past, his father was mostly clueless not because he didn't care but because the advice he was given wasn't up to snuff And there were problems in the information supply chain logistics.
For that I am okay, obviously we're going to need to make changes in the future about how the frum community gets its information.
We hear your concern.
However, Let me say what issue we had with what you said very simply.
Don't mix your feelings with how you look at rabbanim.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:30:17 PM
We hear your concern.
However, Let me say what issue we had with what you said very simply.
Don't mix your feelings with how you look at rabbanim.
Let me give you an example
https://collive.com/this-past-shabbos-in-crown-heights/#comments
Read this comments in the figure out why we have a pandemic.
How many people quoting rabbanim?
Are they making it up? I dunno.
I can tell you that personally in my community that they did not want to close the shulls.
Every doctor in Miami begged them to.
And this is where I'm going to shut up, yes maybe you would understand me more if you understand what I'm coming from.
But actually because of my respect for rabbanim I'll stay silent.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:31:31 PM
What happens if there was a second wave of infections?!?!
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:33:42 PM
People have this type of logic.. I really sometimes wonder how we ever sent a man to the moon..
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:36:29 PM
Post by: mlight on March 29, 2020, 07:36:40 PM
Going on a public forum, speaking negatively about anyone, let alone those whose lives are dedicated to Hashem, His torah and His people will not bring about any remedy or change. If that's your goal, you're getting nowhere close to it.
To the contrary, think of Miriam merely "questioning" Moshe. Think of Korach and his qualms with Moshe, which BTW were unfortunately accepted by the public. Look throughout history at those that rejected and even questioned gedolei yisroel and the destruction it brought us. Which side of those sentiments would we have taken? Can we say we would have always, with our limited vision, taken the correct side? I humbly propose we yield to the rabbanim.
Again, let me reiterate, your vices and questions are difficult ones. However, rather than accomplish nothing constructive venting in this forum I would suggest having a conversation with your trusted rabbinic/hashkafic authority.
Nothing but love my man!
Post by: TimT on March 29, 2020, 07:37:58 PM
People make up stuff about being immune, they go make up stuff about allowed minyanim.Second wave ? Im glad youre so optimistic about us getting through round one. The gabbai of shomer shabbos is still out there asking passers-by to join a minyan. I told him to jump in the lake. Somebody has to get through to him that he has blood on his hands & needs to shut the damn thing down already.
What happens if there was a second wave of infections?!?!
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 07:40:57 PM
@chevron, I respect the challenge you are facing. I dont have the answers, definitely not the ones you want to hear.
Going on a public forum, speaking negatively about anyone, let alone those whose lives are dedicated to Hashem, His torah and His people will not bring about any remedy or change. If that's your goal, you're getting nowhere close to it.
To the contrary, think of Miriam merely "questioning" Moshe. Think of Korach and his qualms with Moshe, which BTW were unfortunately accepted by the public. Look throughout history at those that rejected and even questioned gedolei yisroel and the destruction it brought us. Which side of those sentiments would we have taken? Can we say we would have always, with our limited vision, taken the correct side? I humbly propose we yield to the rabbanim.
Again, let me reiterate, your vices and questions are difficult ones. However, rather than accomplish nothing constructive venting in this forum I would suggest having a conversation with your trusted rabbinic/hashkafic authority.
Nothing but love my man!
There was not a universal consensus there were many rabbanim from day 1 saying close everything etc etc.
They may not be your rabbanim But it doesn't change the situation so maybe the rabbanim you follow chose one derech. My Rav closed the shull at the beginning.
As the facts on the ground show and the comments will tell you it's still an issue right now.
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 07:47:23 PM
There was not a universal consensus there were many rabbanim from day 1 saying close everything etc etc.
They may not be your rabbanim But it doesn't change the situation so maybe the rabbanim you follow chose one derech. My Rav closed the shull at the beginning.
As the facts on the ground show and the comments will tell you it's still an issue right now.
There is a concept we find in Chazal that Hashem deliberately hid things from tzadikim so that they should not sense impending danger.
Post by: flyingace on March 29, 2020, 08:07:13 PM
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 08:28:00 PM
Post by: 12HRS on March 29, 2020, 08:59:22 PM
What happens lo aleinu when yesomim grow up and someone tells them how the father died because the Rav didn't close the shull.
Hmm, how about that the father died because Hashem wanted it . You are letting your bitterness towards rabbis impact your view on this situation.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 10:11:21 PM
Hmm, how about that the father died because Hashem wanted it . You are letting your bitterness towards rabbis impact your view on this situation.
What makes me bitter ? My Rav took incredible proactive protective measures very early on.
As for hashem hidding stuff from tzadikim, so all the rabbanim who did see the danger are not the tzadikim ?
How about rabbanim meant best, they are to be commended for their dedication to Torah and yiddishkeit.
Unfortunately they got it wrong.
This generation is certainly not as great as the rabbanim in ww2 who also didn't get that right.
I have emunas chachamim. Just not all of them.
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 10:17:30 PM
China is lying to the world—again.
— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) March 30, 2020
They say COVID-19 has only killed roughly 3,300 of its’ citizens
But new reports out of Wuhan, where the virus began, claim that 3,500 urns of remains are being distributed every day
That would put the death total above 42,000#ChinaIsLying
This makes me sick.
— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) March 30, 2020
The left is twisting and outright LYING about the president’s words
When he said “you people” he was clearly referring to the journalists who fight so hard to divide this country
Watch and decide for yourself
RT to spread the TRUTH https://t.co/afAa8AMmpv
Nancy Pelosi:
— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) March 29, 2020
“As the president fiddles, people are dying”
Remind me again, what every Democrat in DC was pre-occupied with in January, when the virus began to spread?
Maybe instead of impeaching the President, they could have joined him in the fight against this virus
🤔
Pelosi this morning on Trump’s Virus response:
— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) March 29, 2020
“What did he know & when did he know it? That’s for an after-action review”
Even during a pandemic, Democrats are still talking about leading America through ANOTHER investigation of this President
Their only focus is hating Trump
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 10:35:24 PM
Man the crap I heard about the Rebbe in my youth..
Such big tzadikim all of you..
And me I'm such a terrible guy for questioning whether everything was done the right way
Post by: 12HRS on March 29, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
And me I'm such a terrible guy for questioning whether everything was done the right way
You just dont get it.
Let me give you an example
I dunno what frum Judaism will look like the day after.. and yes I worry!!
Hopefully one where we can be more respectful of
Post by: miles lover on March 29, 2020, 10:54:28 PM
And all of you people bashing me I bet that if you were around in the 80's And are litvaks and didn't like what the lubavitcher rebbe said..
Man the crap I heard about the Rebbe in my youth..
Such big tzadikim all of you..
And me I'm such a terrible guy for questioning whether everything was done the right way
People that bashed the rebbe was because their rabbi did. Is your rabbi bashing the other rabbis that didnt close their Shul earlier ?
On a side note, is its really pikuach nefesh to go to Shul why are groceries opened regularly ? Shouldnt we all just wait curb side by a store and get a box of essentials for the week ? Or maybe just eat beans the whole day ? Im not saying I disagree that its pikuach nefesh but why isnt it more strictly enforced in all areas ? ( news reporters by the briefing today, like wth!)
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 10:57:30 PM
And all of you people bashing me I bet that if you were around in the 80's And are litvaks and didn't like what the lubavitcher rebbe said..There have been plenty who criticized and did not get the reaction that you did.
Man the crap I heard about the Rebbe in my youth..
Such big tzadikim all of you..
And me I'm such a terrible guy for questioning whether everything was done the right way
You can make your point without talking like a toilet.
It is not the link. It is the way you are talking like a toilet. The same point can be made talking like a mentch. Others have managed.
Post by: flyingace on March 29, 2020, 11:00:37 PM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 11:06:04 PM
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 11:10:13 PM
the question is to what level you wanna take it.
Post by: TimT on March 29, 2020, 11:17:02 PM
everyobdy agrees with @chevron, monyonim are a problem.How are minyanim still taking place ? People are dropping like flies, hatzolah is going nonstop. Anybody still joining a minyan should give everybody there a heartfelt goodbye as theres a chance some of them will be gone in a week.
the question is to what level you wanna take it.
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 11:20:07 PM
How are minyanim still taking place ? People are dropping like flies, hatzolah is going nonstop. Anybody still joining a minyan should give everybody there a heartfelt goodbye as theres a chance some of them will be gone in a week.we heard this outcry over and over again.
no need to hear this again.
everybody agrees.
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 11:21:30 PM
everyobdy agrees with @chevron, monyonim are a problem.Who wouldn't dial it up to 11??? People are dying!
the question is to what level you wanna take it.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 29, 2020, 11:21:56 PM
we heard this outcry over and over again.agree. I think at this point, the best thing would be to do something outward to the general public if we are hoping to accomplish something. Some sort of emergency PSA effort
no need to hear this again.
everybody agrees.
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 11:22:42 PM
Who wouldn't dial it up to 11??? People are dying!How does it help to use foul language about some of the greatest talmidei chachomim of our generation?
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:26:15 PM
People that bashed the rebbe was because their rabbi did. Is your rabbi bashing the other rabbis that didnt close their Shul earlier ?
On a side note, is its really pikuach nefesh to go to Shul why are groceries opened regularly ? Shouldnt we all just wait curb side by a store and get a box of essentials for the week ? Or maybe just eat beans the whole day ? Im not saying I disagree that its pikuach nefesh but why isnt it more strictly enforced in all areas ? ( news reporters by the briefing today, like wth!)
I have not gone into a store in 2 weeks
And personally was trying that method but man I got bored of eating the same stuff always.
For me it's rough because every day I used to go out to the coffee shop different ones and I would work from there and read from there and just sit in the window and watch people etc.
I started making coffee at home again.
I'm sad to pass my shul(l) daily and see it closed. I spent many years of my life working to get it built.
Sure I would love if everyone here pledged never to talk in shull as a plea to God to once more merit to pray in the mikdash me'aat.
I would love to hear everyone who has kids to pledge that they will teach their kids "da lifnei mi ata omed" and "umikdashai tirau"
But yeah listen, a lot of ahavas yisrael going around now and it's great.
I really am super impressed at the guys in my shul in doing the 5:30am daf on zoom 🤣 When they could easily sleep in and watch it later on YouTube, no 6:30 minyan anyways .
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 11:26:22 PM
Who wouldn't dial it up to 11??? People are dying!#1, what can you do abt it?
#2. everybody goes out for what they seem essential. some see minyan as essential. and the minyonim I see are upholding to the rules pretty well.
The people here feel that these minyonim also need to stop.
BTW, I do not attend those minyanim.
Post by: Dan on March 29, 2020, 11:28:40 PM
#2. everybody goes out for what they seem essential. some see minyan as essential. and the minyonim I see are upholding to the rules pretty well.Speak for yourself. We haven't.
Unreal to see people so maykil in sakanos nefashos. So much for being a smart people.
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 11:30:54 PM
How does it help to use foul language about some of the greatest talmidei chachomim of our generation?It doesn't, but I don't see the same energy spent on an outcry about the minyanim taking place. @chevron is right to pull the alarm bells, and so should everyone. No should sit on their laurels and say, "what should I do?". "Who will listen to me?" "They know already." Etc.
Everyone has a responsibility to do whatever they could to save a life.
Post by: ah giten on March 29, 2020, 11:31:05 PM
Speak for yourself. We haven't.I also didn't leave for quite a few days.
Unreal to see people so maykil in sakanos nefashos. So much for being a smart people.
despite the fact, that its hard to get basics delivered in Brooklyn.
but theres no outcry for people going to grocery, just about minyanim.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:32:58 PM
#1, what can you do abt it?
#2. everybody goes out for what they seem essential. some see minyan as essential. and the minyonim I see are upholding to the rules pretty well.
The people here feel that these minyonim also need to stop.
BTW, I do not attend those minyanim.
My father went to the mikva every day since he became frum, minyan 3 times daily. He hasent gone in 2.5 weeks
Post by: TimT on March 29, 2020, 11:33:30 PM
I also didn't leave for quite a few days.I hope youre not going to grocery 3 times a day.
despite the fact, that its hard to get basics delivered in Brooklyn.
but theres no outcry for people going to grocery, just about minyanim.
Post by: avromie7 on March 29, 2020, 11:34:22 PM
It doesn't, but I don't see the same energy spent on an outcry about the minyanim taking place. @chevron is right to pull the alarm bells, and so should everyone. No should sit on their laurels and say, "what should I do?". "Who will listen to me?" "They know already." Etc.I don't know what his motive is, but if you think disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador will save lives, I have news for you.
Everyone has a responsibility to do whatever they could to save a life.
Post by: S209 on March 29, 2020, 11:34:31 PM
#1, what can you do abt it?I certainly dont attend the minyanim. I have mixed feelings towards them but in general harshly discourage anyone who asks me about going.
#2. everybody goes out for what they seem essential. some see minyan as essential. and the minyonim I see are upholding to the rules pretty well.
The people here feel that these minyonim also need to stop.
BTW, I do not attend those minyanim.
Still, my brother in law who HAS been attending mentioned that at the minyan he attends the one who organized it got up in the beginning and said that anyone who attends this minyan must be mekabel to never miss a minyan again in their life- or else they dont deserve to daven.
Couple points: I have since convinced this bil to stop attending, although he said they daven outside with minimum 10 feet between mispallelim and less than 15 per minyan always, and zero interaction with each other. Also, he hasnt missed minyan until now in many many years, sacrificing much money, effort, and sleep at times to make it, including arranging and paying for minyanim on stopovers when he travels etc. Still, he has finally come around and has stopped, though it is heartbreaking for him.
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 11:35:18 PM
Speak for yourself. We haven't.It comes from having zero education in the basics of Yiddishekeit. Everything is כמצוות אנשים מלומדה. Do they even think for a second if that is what Hashem wants? Did they even ever open a Shulchan Aruch to see where Safek Pikiach Nefesh ranks and where making a minyan ranks? Did they ever stop to think even for a second that if there is even a miniscule chance that they are causing someone's death, then it's Assur to make that minyan, כל שכן that it's much more than that and they are רשעים גמורים who will go first class to גהינם? I guess they never opened a Tanach and saw the admonitions of Yeshaye Hanuvie.
Unreal to see people so maykil in sakanos nefashos. So much for being a smart people.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:35:33 PM
I also didn't leave for quite a few days.
despite the fact, that its hard to get basics delivered in Brooklyn.
but theres no outcry for people going to grocery, just about minyanim.
There is and was.. grocery store owners on the one hand are businessmen and the other hand they are providing a necessary amenity.
Some stores got very strict between social distancing between allowing only a few people in the store at once between forcing people to wear gloves and a mask
You sound like my friend "texting and driving is more dangerous than drinking and driving"
It's not a and or option, neither should be done. I just made an order from Costco with instacart
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 11:36:47 PM
I don't know what his motive is, but if you think disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador will save lives, I have news for you.You didn't understand what I wrote.
Post by: avromie7 on March 29, 2020, 11:40:15 PM
You didn't understand what I wrote.Which part? That everyone has a responsibility to do whatever they can to save a life?
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:42:17 PM
I don't know what his motive is, but if you think disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador will save lives, I have news for you.
Send me an email with your info.. maybe I'll tell you my motive
Or maybe I'll just tell you about my friend who's wife is on immunosuppressants and She was very lucky cuz she got the milder form of coronavirus but now she's going to be sick still for about 6 to 8 months.
If she got the more severe one...
or hearing from my friend how much her grandmother who just passed away at 99 suffered the last few days
I am holding people with authority and responsibility accountable when they should speak up..
Post by: ben89 on March 29, 2020, 11:42:56 PM
I have not gone into a store in 2 weekswho spells it shull besides you? i thought the title was a mistake but i guess it was on purpose
And personally was trying that method but man I got bored of eating the same stuff always.
For me it's rough because every day I used to go out to the coffee shop different ones and I would work from there and read from there and just sit in the window and watch people etc.
I started making coffee at home again.
I'm sad to pass my shul(l) daily and see it closed. I spent many years of my life working to get it built.
Sure I would love if everyone here pledged never to talk in shull as a plea to God to once more merit to pray in the mikdash me'aat.
I would love to hear everyone who has kids to pledge that they will teach their kids "da lifnei mi ata omed" and "umikdashai tirau"
But yeah listen, a lot of ahavas yisrael going around now and it's great.
I really am super impressed at the guys in my shul in doing the 5:30am daf on zoom 🤣 When they could easily sleep in and watch it later on YouTube, no 6:30 minyan anyways .
Post by: avromie7 on March 29, 2020, 11:44:50 PM
Send me an email with your info.. maybe I'll tell you my motiveYet again, you missed the boat.
Or maybe I'll just tell you about my friend who's wife is on immunosuppressants and She was very lucky cuz she got the milder form of coronavirus but now she's going to be sick still for about 6 to 8 months.
If she got the more severe one...
or hearing from my friend how much her grandmother who just passed away at 99 suffered the last few days
I am holding people with authority and responsibility accountable when they should speak up..
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:45:18 PM
who spells it shull besides you?
My auto correct decided it's the correct way to spell shul (I'm legit serious 🤷)
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:50:52 PM
Yet again, you missed the boat.
What boat ?
Listen Einstein, today one who davens with a minyan supposedly is a rotzeach.. last week he was a tzadik.
Meanwhile I'm evil for daring to State the obvious.
In NY everyone says it went from 0-60.
When it was at 0 and I said shut it down they said oh no worries it's not gonna hit us...
That's the whole frikking point.. the virus spreads rapidly at 0!!!
Then boom 60!
I'm really not interested in arguing over every point you may have found offensive
As stated here 10 days ago by some members "it It's going to take many sacrifices and many people dead before people wake up"
Post by: yelped on March 29, 2020, 11:51:29 PM
Which part? That everyone has a responsibility to do whatever they can to save a life?That @chevron is doing whatever he could to save a life, and I see a ton of energy spent on trying to get him to elucidate his thoughts in a proper fashion, but I don't see the same energy being spent on saving a life. Pick up the phone. Call your friends who might be joining such minyanim. Speak to your local Rav. Have him publicly speak out against such minyanim. Etc. Use all resources available to you to save a life.
Post by: avromie7 on March 29, 2020, 11:54:05 PM
That @chevron is doing whatever he could to save a life, and I see a ton of energy spent on trying to get him to elucidate his thoughts in a proper fashion, but I don't see the same energy being spent on saving a life. Pick up the phone. Call your friends who might be joining such minyanim. Speak to your local Rav. Have him publicly speak out against such minyanim. Etc. Use all resources available to you to save a life.He's doing just the opposite by disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador.
Post by: YitzyS on March 29, 2020, 11:54:45 PM
I certainly dont attend the minyanim. I have mixed feelings towards them but in general harshly discourage anyone who asks me about going.It's not enough to daven outdoors standing 10 feet away from each other.
Still, my brother in law who HAS been attending mentioned that at the minyan he attends the one who organized it got up in the beginning and said that anyone who attends this minyan must be mekabel to never miss a minyan again in their life- or else they dont deserve to daven.
Couple points: I have since convinced this bil to stop attending, although he said they daven outside with minimum 10 feet between mispallelim and less than 15 per minyan always, and zero interaction with each other. Also, he hasnt missed minyan until now in many many years, sacrificing much money, effort, and sleep at times to make it, including arranging and paying for minyanim on stopovers when he travels etc. Still, he has finally come around and has stopped, though it is heartbreaking for him.
Aside from the sakana of the virus (which seems to be avoided in this scenario), there is another real and present danger. All you need is one delivery driver to pass by and take a picture and post it on social media, or call the police who in turn may release a press release even if they don't deem it criminal (this has happened), and suddenly you have fueled the flames of bigotry and created a real danger of a modern-day pogrom.
It's not enough to stand far enough that the virus cannot transmit. One must be far enough that no matter which angle a photographer may try to take a picture, no gathering will be apparent.
This is real danger that many don't account for.
Post by: chevron on March 29, 2020, 11:56:27 PM
He's doing just the opposite by disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador.
You keep parroting this line..
Post by: aygart on March 29, 2020, 11:57:26 PM
You keep parroting this line..It is the truth.
It would be much more effective to say that everyone should listen to what every single Rov is now saying to daven at home than to start using foul language about them. How will that get purple to actually listen?
Post by: avromie7 on March 29, 2020, 11:57:50 PM
It's not enough to daven outdoors standing 10 feet away from each other.I dont think it's our job to not daven with a minyan because people dont like it, but when the rabbanim (more specifically, your rav) says dont make a minyan you have no business trying to outsmart him.
Aside from the sakana of the virus (which seems to be avoided in this scenario), there is another real and present danger. All you need is one delivery driver to pass by and take a picture and post it on social media, or call the police who in turn may release a press release even if they don't deem it criminal (this has happened), and suddenly you have fueled the flames of bigotry and created a real danger of a modern-day pogrom.
This is real danger that many don't account for.
Post by: yelped on March 30, 2020, 12:00:09 AM
He's doing just the opposite by disparaging rabbanim and gedolei hador.I think a lot of people misunderstand @chevron. I didn't see all his posts, but it seems to me that he is bothered that many Rabbanim did not speak out until it was too late. His personal Rav and others did. His frustrations are not being brought out in the most positive way, but his intentions are gold. Take the energy you're spending on mending the way he expressed his frustrations and fix the cause of them and save a life and most likely, many lives.
That's all.
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 12:01:26 AM
I also didn't leave for quite a few days.Like what?
despite the fact, that its hard to get basics delivered in Brooklyn.
but theres no outcry for people going to grocery, just about minyanim.
I get emails from many Brooklyn groceries offering delivery.
There's instacart, doordash, Amazon, etc.
What do you really need to go out for, that's worth risking your life for?
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 12:04:47 AM
Like what?I can't speak for elsewhere, but in Lakewood ordering groceries is a disaster.
I get emails from many Brooklyn groceries offering delivery.
There's instacart, doordash, Amazon, etc.
What do you really need to go out for, that's worth risking your life for?
Post by: ah giten on March 30, 2020, 12:05:10 AM
Like what?putting myself aside.
I get emails from many Brooklyn groceries offering delivery.
There's instacart, doordash, Amazon, etc.
What do you really need to go out for, that's worth risking your life for?
People in the community do not use these services. Fact.
so they are anyway in the street. fact.
so if they make a minyan, its just the 1 time in the day, they do something justifiable. (talking abt the minaynim upholding to the guidelines)
I passed a few parks Friday, full with people (goyim).
wheres the outcry?
Post by: ah giten on March 30, 2020, 12:06:55 AM
I can't speak for elsewhere, but in Lakewood ordering groceries is a disaster.It's worse in Brooklyn. I bet you that.
beside, when you need certain products for pesach that aren't available with these delivery services.
so now we can talk if to drop all חומרותfor this year, but thats another discussion.
Post by: yelped on March 30, 2020, 12:08:00 AM
putting myself aside.It's not justifiable. They are not doing a mitzva period. They are just doing it because that's what they're used to. If they thought into it, they would never do it, because it's not a mitzvah.
People in the community do not use these services. Fact.
so they are anyway in the street. fact.
so if they make a minyan, its just the 1 time in the day, they do something justifiable.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:08:04 AM
That @chevron is doing whatever he could to save a life, and I see a ton of energy spent on trying to get him to elucidate his thoughts in a proper fashion, but I don't see the same energy being spent on saving a life. Pick up the phone. Call your friends who might be joining such minyanim. Speak to your local Rav. Have him publicly speak out against such minyanim. Etc. Use all resources available to you to save a life.
I'm very assertive and have the ability and capacity to express my thoughts and feelings.
You get my raw emotions. The attacks don't bother me.. I have friends working 16-18 hours a day.
I hit a low point at 5am 8 days crying from frustration because they wouldn't close the shulls. Watching this pandemic spread.
So yeah I'm frustrated then yeah I mean I'm sorry to disparage everyone... Maybe one day they'll apologize at my 2 weeks of not sleeping..
I'm frustrated because I care! Because these are human beings we can save!
people like you and me with family and friends with hopes and dreams, people who desperately want to live.. and maybe their biggest desire in life is to wake up every day and go to bed at night and no matter what happened to them will say "ve'ahavta es hashem elokecha.. bechol levavecha.."
I was never scared of surgery..I'm only scared of one thing, that I could not repent before I died and not be able to say shema like I really mean it.
It's devastating to see people in the hospital go in and just get sedated and gone.
אהרן אליהו בן לאה should have a refuah shleima.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 12:09:08 AM
Like what?To actually get an instacart delivery in Brooklyn these days is nigh impossible. It doesn't include kosher foods and will take a week.
I get emails from many Brooklyn groceries offering delivery.
There's instacart, doordash, Amazon, etc.
What do you really need to go out for, that's worth risking your life for?
Loads of delays on Amazon for many essentials that they don't deem essential.
In Crown Heights, they limit how many people are allowed in the store, every single shopper and store employee must wear a mask and gloves. It's not risking your life to go shopping.
There are a bunch of whatsapp groups, a hotline and email addresses for seniors and people in isolation who cannot shop to have volunteers do shopping for them. So those at higher risk don't have to go shopping at all.
Keep in mind that many in Brooklyn are in isolation in tiny apartments with a bunch of kids. Going shopping may save someone's life
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 12:11:31 AM
Pro tip: Make orders every couple days and edit the order as needed closer in.
Post by: S209 on March 30, 2020, 12:11:51 AM
It's not enough to daven outdoors standing 10 feet away from each other.100% agree, this is what finally got him to capitulate. Was just posting some softeners before @chevron and @yelped jumped on me for not calling the police on him :P
Aside from the sakana of the virus (which seems to be avoided in this scenario), there is another real and present danger. All you need is one delivery driver to pass by and take a picture and post it on social media, or call the police who in turn may release a press release even if they don't deem it criminal (this has happened), and suddenly you have fueled the flames of bigotry and created a real danger of a modern-day pogrom.
It's not enough to stand far enough that the virus cannot transmit. One must be far enough that no matter which angle a photographer may try to take a picture, no gathering will be apparent.
This is real danger that many don't account for.
Btw- I fully agree with them on this in theory
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:18:17 AM
It's worse in Brooklyn. I bet you that.
beside, when you need certain products for pesach that aren't available with these delivery services.
so now we can talk if to drop all חומרותfor this year, but thats another discussion.
I forced my parents to quarintine indefinitely.
Well I didn't force them but I basically told them that either I will provide for them indefinitely but they have to stay indoors or b I'm going to come over and tell my bubby how much I love here and apologize she won't make it to my wedding c'v
That's her biggest dream at 95 and now I'm only 34 hitting 35 lol
At the beginning my family got upset at me stop scaring everybody etc etc
But they listened bh
My mother texted me that they are out of yogurts and milk and can I go to the store and get and when I told her that it was not on the agenda she said oh well then I will go to the store in the morning and they have senior hours..
I'm like, look its not 2019... You don't go to the store anymore because you run out of milk or yogurts nobody ever died because they didn't have milk and yogurts..
You need to take stock and you need to have supply for 10 to 14 days obviously that doesn't mean hoarding so everybody else can't get.
But it means being practical
I think that unfortunately so many people I don't want to take it on people from like New York and New Jersey but so many people are used to everything and the whole life evolves around routine
For like 2 weeks I've been craving half sour pickles. That's my thing in life I usually get them at whole foods but I can't get delivery from whole foods and I'm not willing to go into the store so I found another vendor that I buy from and uh yeah I bought 2 containers and paid $10 shipping.. oh well.. I don't need them
It's unfortunate that businesses in the heimish community don't deliver.. community pressure can fix that, good 'ol capitalism
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 12:19:18 AM
I guess I'm spoiled with Instacart having plenty of kosher here.We've done that. But we also used Instacart before Corona and are familiar with it. You can't expect the entire Brooklyn to figure out Instacart in a week, besides the fact that Instacart wouldn't be able to handle it anyway.
Pro tip: Make orders every couple days and edit the order as needed closer in.
Post by: Shmobaum on March 30, 2020, 12:23:33 AM
Post by: S209 on March 30, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Rav Mechel Zilber Shlita from yerushalayim said that if someone who has the virus leaves his house hes a ROTZEACH BMEIZID!!!Please post the source I want to share with someone
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
We've done that. But we also used Instacart before Corona and are familiar with it. You can't expect the entire Brooklyn to figure out Instacart in a week, besides the fact that Instacart wouldn't be able to handle it anyway.
I never used instacart or Uber eats before. Well Uber eats once.
My mother figured out how to order from Publix (Florida's premier grocery)on instacart.
2 married siblings live here besides me, all 3 of us in apartments, different building's different blocks
If I order delivery for something I include whatever my siblings want and send it all to my parents house and then they leave anything on the porch etc for whoever needs to pick something up
At the beginning of the pandemic I texted my good friends at Krudo And I ordered to go an enormous amount of fish
We basically all share etc.. like last night I was craving pizza so I ordered a pie kept two slices and dropped the rest at my brother's apartment building.
I have been observing social distance of the 6 to 10 ft for the last 2 weeks...
It's the small stuff.. Shabbat I was reading on my couch, My porch door was open And then I thought I heard my name being called.
I went on my porch and saw my brother and his wife and the little ones outside.. and we chatted from 30 feet away for a couple minutes and that really made my day.
I think we can do this, we need to be determined.
Anybody who does not respect your space does not respect you.
Post by: Shmobaum on March 30, 2020, 12:29:31 AM
Please post the source I want to share with someoneI have the video on my phone that I took from his shiur on kol Halashon. Plz pm me your WhatsApp or email
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:30:53 AM
Yes I miss hugging my neices and nephews etc
I have friends whose brothers are Lakewood yeshivish.. all married with kids and insist on going to their parents for pesach..
Neither the two siblings or the parents see anything wrong with it
Post by: S209 on March 30, 2020, 12:39:15 AM
I have the video on my phone that I took from his shiur on kol Halashon. Plz pm me your WhatsApp or emailThanks!
Post by: YitzyS on March 30, 2020, 07:46:15 AM
I dont think it's our job to not daven with a minyan because people dont like it, but when the rabbanim (more specifically, your rav) says dont make a minyan you have no business trying to outsmart him.I didnt mention that point because, as I posted upthread, I know of a minyan backed by a rov. That minyan is basically 10-12 people, each one davening on their own property, but all the properties are open to one square so everyone can hear the shouting Baal tefilla. Minimum 20-25 foot separations and absolutely no leining.
Post by: Lurker on March 30, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 08:39:01 AM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/03/audio-dr-shanik-stay-home-for-pesach.html
I have friends whose brothers are Lakewood yeshivish.. all married with kids and insist on going to their parents for pesach..
Neither the two siblings or the parents see anything wrong with it
Post by: AsherO on March 30, 2020, 10:09:36 AM
Pro tip: Make orders every couple days and edit the order as needed closer in.
Love it! The best posts are often in the topic where they dont get noticed.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
Essentially, an invisible cloud is created within the atmosphere (both an inside atmosphere and an outside atmosphere) that can hit neighboring people up to 27, yes, 27 feet away.
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 11:48:39 AM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 12:03:10 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/278006Yawn..
This circulated last week. Still hasnt done a darn thing to stop minyanim. In EY there are minyanim as of right.
Post by: israshot on March 30, 2020, 12:06:52 PM
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 12:07:12 PM
Boro Park. Miamonidies Hospital
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 12:16:33 PM
I saw today so many ppl walking in Williamsburg with their Talis/Tefilin' bag... I saw more than a 100!How are people so ignorant?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 12:18:28 PM
How are people so ignorant?these video trucks thats ere going around these neighborhoods should show the videos of bodies at the Chevra kadisha ..
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 12:25:18 PM
How are people so ignorant?As someone here once said...you need to get out more. This is what happens when religious education trumps all. You get practical ignorance to a level unheard of before. Every person that took part in a minyan during this time should be barred from shuls that were closed during this time...forever.
This is also the sad outcome of hagiographic biographies of the personages of the previous generations where stories are told of mesirus nefesh for [fill in the blank] when in fact those stories never happened or are embellished beyond any truth. The mesirus nefesh in the concentration camps was by individuals not hundreds or thousands.
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 12:26:36 PM
As someone here once said...you need to get out more. This is what happens when religious education trumps all. You get practical ignorance to a level unheard of before. Every person that took part in a minyan during this time should be barred from shuls that were closed during this time...forever.
This is also the sad outcome of hagiographic biographies of the personages of the previous generations where stories are told of mesirus nefesh for [fill in the blank] when in fact those stories never happened or are embellished beyond any truth. The mesirus nefesh in the concentration camps was by individuals not hundreds or thousands.
Suddenly all of these chassidim are ignoring their Rebbes?
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
Suddenly all of these chassidim are ignoring their Rebbes?Thats the astonishing part. My next door neighbor is a DAYAN in Bobov45 forget about a chusid...a DAYAN!!! and he has been inside his house with hi sentire family for the better part of 2 weeks. They (Bobov45) were the first chasidim to get hit hard. His 2 brothers were hospitalized. I came out the back of my house and hes on his back porch davening with a minyan in the backyards behind our houses. Yes they were separated by gates etc. He is less than 6 feet from my porch though. Astonishing!!1
Post by: ltttc on March 30, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
This is also the sad outcome of hagiographic biographies of the personages of the previous generations where stories are told of mesirus nefesh for [fill in the blank] when in fact those stories never happened or are embellished beyond any truth. The mesirus nefesh in the concentration camps was by individuals not hundreds or thousands.Hey, hey. This isn't a private venting forum. I don't know where your grandparents are from or why you are so mad, but I still have Holocaust surviving grandparents and hear 1st hand accounts from them which completely contradict what you wrote above. Their situation and mesiras nefesh can in no way compare to today's "minyan mesiras nefesh"...
Post by: ah giten on March 30, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Thats the astonishing part. My next door neighbor is a DAYAN in Bobov45 forget about a chusid...a DAYAN!!! and he has been inside his house with hi sentire family for the better part of 2 weeks. They (Bobov45) were the first chasidim to get hit hard. His 2 brothers were hospitalized. I came out the back of my house and hes on his back porch davening with a minyan in the backyards behind our houses. Yes they were separated by gates etc. He is less than 6 feet from my porch though. Astonishing!!1it's bad enough that ur bashing a Dayan, no need for details.
Post by: skyguy918 on March 30, 2020, 12:46:31 PM
The study found that viral droplets expelled both in coughs and sneezes travels at speeds that range between 22 miles per hour to 68 miles an hours. This translates to 33 feet per second and 100 feet per second. The speed rate depends upon the strength of the original expulsion and how warm and moist the atmosphere is. The study can be viewed at https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852. The corresponding author of the study is Lydia Bourouiba, PhD, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.Worth watching the whole thing, but the part about aeresolization starts around the 7 min mark:
Essentially, an invisible cloud is created within the atmosphere (both an inside atmosphere and an outside atmosphere) that can hit neighboring people up to 27, yes, 27 feet away.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Hey, hey. This isn't a private venting forum. I don't know where your grandparents are from or why you are so mad, but I still have Holocaust surviving grandparents and hear 1st hand accounts from them which completely contradict what you wrote above. Their situation and mesiras nefesh can in no way compare to today's "minyan mesiras nefesh"...
There was a guy from Chicago lypshitz, brilliant easy going warm yid, he used to come to Miami on vacation in the winter. This was probably about 23, 24 years ago.
I don't know where he grew up but I know that he was in the warsaw ghetto.
He said one winter Chanukah, his brother and he snuck out of the ghetto to go to the mikva.
I'll believe that, but these are different times, no one is taking away your tefillen.
we have not had a pandemic like this in 100 years and so it's entirely impossible for us to comprehend this but I can let you know certainly that God forbid in the future they are going to look back at us and history may not be so kind.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:56:35 PM
Worth watching the whole thing, but the part about aeresolization starts around the 7 min mark:
I don't know what if he's proven wrong?
Post by: yaakov35 on March 30, 2020, 12:57:29 PM
I saw today so many ppl walking in Williamsburg with their Talis/Tefilin' bag... I saw more than a 100!Saw same thing in ch yesterday, as if nothing is going around them.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 12:58:07 PM
As someone here once said...you need to get out more. This is what happens when religious education trumps all. You get practical ignorance to a level unheard of before. Every person that took part in a minyan during this time should be barred from shuls that were closed during this time...forever.
This is also the sad outcome of hagiographic biographies of the personages of the previous generations where stories are told of mesirus nefesh for [fill in the blank] when in fact those stories never happened or are embellished beyond any truth. The mesirus nefesh in the concentration camps was by individuals not hundreds or thousands.
The stories of the guys running under the Russian soldiers who were beating him and one of their yarmulkas fell off and he went to retrieve it.
In certain generations that was critical that they would not waiver and that they stand farm in today's generation I think it's just stupidity
Post by: shaulyaakov on March 30, 2020, 01:00:32 PM
The stories of the guys running under the Russian soldiers who were beating him and one of their yarmulkas fell off and he went to retrieve it.Moreover, if the attacks are on a religion, piety is understandable. In this case, it's an external force.
In certain generations that was critical that they would not waiver and that they stand farm in today's generation I think it's just stupidity
Post by: Jolu on March 30, 2020, 01:03:27 PM
How are people so ignorant?
Corovidiots. FTFY
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 01:08:53 PM
Moreover, if the attacks are on a religion, piety is understandable. In this case, it's an external force.
That's why I've been frustrated from day one. The virus may be because of a gezeira, And the answer is not keep minyanim going to counter gezeira.
Maybe the gezeira is to close the shulls?
Post by: yelped on March 30, 2020, 01:09:19 PM
How are people so ignorant?Unfortunately, they're bred to be ignorant. Missing essentials of Yiddishekeit. This should be the lesson of this pandemic. To take a good look on how we are educating the next generation. But instead they're going to bash me for saying this. ::)
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 01:16:30 PM
Unfortunately, they're bred to be ignorant. Missing essentials of Yiddishekeit. This should be the lesson of this pandemic. To take a good look on how we are educating the next generation. But instead they're going to bash me for saying this. ::)
No I am the designated bashee ;)
Post by: shaulyaakov on March 30, 2020, 01:19:46 PM
Post by: yakov116 on March 30, 2020, 01:21:25 PM
It's also unfortunate that every shul in the NYC metro area should have been closed for zachor and purim as well in retrospect, but I think the Halachic imperative combined with the delay of information proved dangerous.Your point. Every one can say that...
i say we should have been in quarantine since chanuckah
Post by: shaulyaakov on March 30, 2020, 01:25:58 PM
Your point. Every one can say that...It should have been evident that the community spread from New Rochelle would reach all corners of the frum world in NY in days. I'm sure zachor and Purim accelerated the spread. Unfortunately, all levels of leadership failed to understand.
i say we should have been in quarantine since chanuckah
Post by: Luvtotravel on March 30, 2020, 01:27:22 PM
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 01:30:40 PM
Hey, hey. This isn't a private venting forum. I don't know where your grandparents are from or why you are so mad, but I still have Holocaust surviving grandparents and hear 1st hand accounts from them which completely contradict what you wrote above. Their situation and mesiras nefesh can in no way compare to today's "minyan mesiras nefesh"...You misread what I wrote. And I had holocaust grandparents too. What I'm saying is the mesirus nefesh was real by many individuals. Not fake wholesale whatever you want to call this. This is NOT mesirus nefesh.
it's bad enough that ur bashing a Dayan, no need for details.I'm bashing my next door neighbor who is a roidef and should know better. The fact that he is a dayan, for me is meaningless. Mind your own business.
Post by: avromie7 on March 30, 2020, 01:32:04 PM
This is NOT mesirus nefesh.Of course it is, being moser someone elses nefesh.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 01:35:49 PM
Of course it is, being moser someone elses nefesh.So he is being makriv karbanos on his own mizbeach zar. New meaning to רק הבמות לא סרו
Post by: yakov116 on March 30, 2020, 01:36:45 PM
Unfortunately, all levels of leadership failed to understand.
Really? No one?? There were MANY!
my Issue is that I dont like when people make across the boards statements
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
Saw same thing in ch yesterday, as if nothing is going around them.Really? The few times I have been out in ch in the past couple of weeks it has been a ghost town.
Post by: lubaby on March 30, 2020, 01:59:14 PM
it's bad enough that ur bashing a Dayan, no need for details.
I'm bashing my next door neighbor who is a roidef and should know better. The fact that he is a dayan, for me is meaningless. Mind your own business.One thing if he was just a "regular Am Haaretz" that was interpreting things however he wanted, for his own "Chassidishe Yetzer Horah".
The fact that he's a Dayan makes it all the worse. When you're a public community figure that people trust and respect, any misguidance is
Post by: MeirS on March 30, 2020, 01:59:33 PM
Saw same thing in ch yesterday, as if nothing is going around them.I didn't go out yesterday but on Shabbos afternoon I had to go check up on someone.
Walking from Albany and Empire to Kingston and Union, I saw less then 10 Jews each way.
What I saw past Kingston and Union is a different story
על אלה אני בוכיה
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 02:02:01 PM
I didn't go out yesterday but on Shabbos afternoon I had to go check up on someone.Ultimate Chosid shoteh :(
Walking from Albany and Empire to Kingston and Union, I saw less then 10 Jews each way.
What I saw past Kingston and Union is a different story
Post by: Abebee on March 30, 2020, 02:13:25 PM
just trying to be melamed zchus here. i know of dozens of shuls open. mayb they r full of those post virus? i myself although im over am still locked in but my grown sons have been itching to goWho said you cant catch it again?
Post by: cmey on March 30, 2020, 02:21:07 PM
He says doctors in the area hospitals are prioritizing non frum patients for respirators RL because they say the frum people are bringing it upon themselves by gathering together.
Post by: zh cohen on March 30, 2020, 02:25:52 PM
(Maybe I should post this in the FakeNews thread)
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 02:29:29 PM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/03/audio-lakewood-posek-rabbi-forscheimer-anyone-making-gatherings-must-stop-immediately.htmlouch!
He says doctors in the area hospitals are prioritizing non frum patients for respirators RL because they say the frum people are bringing it upon themselves by gathering together.
Post by: yelped on March 30, 2020, 02:30:15 PM
Is there anything from official (NYS) sources on mikvahs? Someone (sincerely) told me that he saw that the NYSDOH said Mikvahs can't transfer the virus.The Mikva itself (if maintained properly). Everything else surrounding is the problem. Items, people etc.
(Maybe I should post this in the FakeNews thread)
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 02:31:25 PM
Is there anything from official (NYS) sources on mikvahs? Someone (sincerely) told me that he saw that the NYSDOH said Mikvahs can't transfer the virus.There is no evidence that COVID-19 can be spread to humans through the use of pools and hot tubs. Proper operation, maintenance, and disinfection (e.g., with chlorine and bromine) of pools and hot tubs should remove or inactivate the virus that causes COVID-19.
(Maybe I should post this in the FakeNews thread)
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/water.html
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 02:35:19 PM
Is there anything from official (NYS) sources on mikvahs? Someone (sincerely) told me that he saw that the NYSDOH said Mikvahs can't transfer the virus.Sell to a goy. Oh wait.
(Maybe I should post this in the FakeNews thread)
Post by: moko on March 30, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Sell to a goy. Oh wait.his wife? ;)
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 02:44:47 PM
Is there anything from official (NYS) sources on mikvahs? Someone (sincerely) told me that he saw that the NYSDOH said Mikvahs can't transfer the virus.I heard this from the Chair of epidemiology at Jersey Shore, but that was referring only to the mikvah itslf.
(Maybe I should post this in the FakeNews thread)
Post by: zh cohen on March 30, 2020, 02:46:35 PM
Sell to a goy. Oh wait.13th amendment made that illegal
Post by: zh cohen on March 30, 2020, 02:47:14 PM
his wife? ;)
He was actually trying to convince me to open the men's mikvah
Post by: EliJelly on March 30, 2020, 02:47:40 PM
This is also the sad outcome of hagiographic biographies of the personages of the previous generations where stories are told of mesirus nefesh for [fill in the blank] when in fact those stories never happened or are embellished beyond any truth. The mesirus nefesh in the concentration camps was by individuals not hundreds or thousands.Among the chilul hashem that is going on on this thread, the above one is on a total different level of low. Very sad to see how some emerge with their true colors in this crisis.
Post by: israshot on March 30, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
How are people so ignorant?Another story I just heard from a client, he ordered on Friday some platters for his son's bar mitzvah so I asked him today how it went... He told me that there were 63 ppl in the shul and the Rov didn't wanted more than 50 because that's the limit from the government (WHAT???) so the Rov asked a few ppl to go out. I told him that no gathering is allowed according to the law and he couldn't believe me.
One of the lessons, Rabonim Rabonim but make sure they have the story straight first.
Post by: israshot on March 30, 2020, 03:23:15 PM
1. Back then it was שעת השמד where the Gemara says אפי' ערקתא דמסאנא (Google it).
2. They weren't putting other ppl in danger without their knowledge (today they spread the virus beyond the Minyan)
Post by: doodle on March 30, 2020, 03:27:53 PM
There are 2 main differences between the FAKE 'Mesirus Nefesh' of today's Minyonim and the mesirus nefesh in Russia and the Holocaust (besides the fact that it's against the Rabbonim and so against the torah).They definitely were putting other people in danger . Try to read a little
1. Back then it was שעת השמד where the Gemara says אפי' ערקתא דמסאנא (Google it).
2. They weren't putting other ppl in danger without their knowledge (today they spread the virus beyond the Minyan)
About Nazi and NKVD techniques before posting stupidity
Post by: shapsam on March 30, 2020, 03:35:25 PM
That's one funky looking Hasidic wedding/Minyan https://t.co/WJZf6XZsda
— The Meturgeman (@HaMeturgeman) March 30, 2020
Post by: keepsmiling123 on March 30, 2020, 03:58:09 PM
Many peoples Pesach plans are upended as a result of this virus, but if we don't adhere to the recommendations who knows how long we will have too live like this.
Unless you an essential employee (healthcare/first responder) or you need to leave for essentials like food and medicine don't leave your house. Is it comfortable? No. And if leaving for essentials it should only be one designated person. Limit the spread and flatten the curve. Hospitals are overloaded, there are literally pop up morgues in NYC, why would anyone want to add to the death toll?
Rant over.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 04:13:23 PM
Guys, stay home and stay safe. Stop the minyanim, mikvas, and gatherings. My BIL just named his baby over zoom, was it ideal? no. Was it necessary at this time? yes.
Many peoples Pesach plans are upended as a result of this virus, but if we don't adhere to the recommendations who knows how long we will have too live like this.
Unless you an essential employee (healthcare/first responder) or you need to leave for essentials like food and medicine don't leave your house. Is it comfortable? No. And if leaving for essentials it should only be one designated person. Limit the spread and flatten the curve. Hospitals are overloaded, there are literally pop up morgues in NYC, why would anyone want to add to the death toll?
Rant over.
They are waiting until they see the pictures of all the bodies
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 04:47:23 PM
Among the chilul hashem that is going on on this thread, the above one is on a total different level of low. Very sad to see how some emerge with their true colors in this crisis.Yes Rav Moshe learned shas 400 times you dolt! The Kotzker (CMIIW) said It best...If you believe all the stories about the Baal Shem happened youre a fool...so much more so for all the drivel that is written in these "biographies". You dont like to hear the truth that your hero wasnt perfect...too bad.
Thats not chilul Hashem. Chilul Hashem is seeing mothers taking walks with their 6 kids and carriages throughout Boro Park when yidden are dying because this disease keeps being spread. (Yes I have changed my tune on kids) Seeing FAKERS ROTZCHIM MENUVALIM hiding behind false piety to bow at the alter of todays Baal.
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 04:54:45 PM
Yes Rav Moshe learned shas 400 times you dolt! The Kotzker (CMIIW) said It best...If you believe all the stories about the Baal Shem happened youre a fool...so much more so for all the drivel that is written in these "biographies". You dont like to hear the truth that your hero wasnt perfect...too bad.What in the world does one have to do with the other?
Thats not chilul Hashem. Chilul Hashem is seeing mothers taking walks with their 6 kids and carriages throughout Boro Park when yidden are dying because this disease keeps being spread. (Yes I have changed my tune on kids) Seeing FAKERS ROTZCHIM MENUVALIM hiding behind false piety to bow at the alter of todays Baal.
Post by: ah giten on March 30, 2020, 04:59:41 PM
What in the world does one have to do with the other?I guess we should open a poll.
מצוה
מצוה הבא בעבירה
מסירת נפש
מסירת נפש של אחרים
רוצח
רודף
Idiot
none of the above.
I prefer to not voice my opinion.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 05:02:09 PM
Post by: Dan on March 30, 2020, 05:04:07 PM
It's incredible that the spread of Coronavirus just so happens to be caused by all the things I personally disapproved of before the virus existed.This needs to be memed.
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 05:09:14 PM
I guess we should open a poll.
מצוה
מצוה הבא בעבירה
מסירת נפש
מסירת נפש של אחרים
רוצח
רודף
Idiot
none of the above.
I prefer to not voice my opinion.
Anyone davening with a minyan against the directions of the rabbonim is showing the intentions of going to shul really is (and I don't mean that it is lshem shomayim)
Post by: ah giten on March 30, 2020, 05:12:38 PM
Anyone davening with a minyan against the directions of the rabbonim is showing the intentions of going to shul really is (and I don't mean that it is lshem shomayim)some here are against ANY sort of minyan.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 05:14:11 PM
This needs to be memed.
You mean someone needs to take a screenshot and add their own watermark to it?
Post by: yelped on March 30, 2020, 05:18:22 PM
some here are against ANY sort of minyan.That's not true. You are just saying that because you're trying to paint those who are trying to save lives as anti frum. שטן על מה חייב? משום צובע.
Post by: Something Fishy on March 30, 2020, 05:24:19 PM
Thank you.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 30, 2020, 05:25:20 PM
Okay ladies and gents, I don't want to have to babysit this thread and its posters. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks, and don't name individuals or communities unless there's a to'eles.everyone thinks theres a toeles for everything they say...
Thank you.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 05:35:40 PM
to'eles.
Toeles
Toy-eh-less
adjective
1) Meets an individual's personal agenda
"My post that @Something Fishy is a liar and a cheat was not gossip, it was l'toeles; so that no one goes on his trips. It had nothing to do with my ongoing feud with his mother in law."
Post by: lubaby on March 30, 2020, 05:41:24 PM
ToelesIt's also important to mention that if you do go on one if his trips, you may come back toeles(s).
Toy-eh-less
adjective
1) Meets an individual's personal agenda
"My post that @Something Fishy is a liar and a cheat was not gossip, it was l'toeles; so that no one goes on his trips. It had nothing to do with my ongoing feud with his mother in law."
..but still cold enough to lose a toe or toe...
Wanna go hunt for Aurora Borealis? I still have a couple toes left ;)
How about an intense 3 days or so of running around and chasing the aurora interspersed with hours of standing out in the cold hunched over a camera, that should be good for losing a toe or two :)
Post by: aygart on March 30, 2020, 05:42:32 PM
some here are against ANY sort of minyan.
That is correct. The rabbonim are against making any sort of minyanim. Originally we had a minyan between 4 families each on their own porch. Based on the advice of local rabbonim my family will no longer be participating.
Post by: Something Fishy on March 30, 2020, 05:48:36 PM
Toeles
Toy-eh-less
adjective
1) Meets an individual's personal agenda
"My post that @Something Fishy is a liar and a cheat was not gossip, it was l'toeles; so that no one goes on his trips. It had nothing to do with my ongoing feud with his mother in law."
Leave my shvigger out of this, you pathetic peripatetic.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 05:50:23 PM
Leave my shvigger out of this, you pathetic peripatetic.Hey easy on the ad hominem attacks.
Post by: zh cohen on March 30, 2020, 05:56:07 PM
The Kotzker (CMIIW) said It best...If you believe all the stories about the Baal Shem happened youre a fool...
You forgot the second half of the quote "if you don't believe them, you are a kofer"
Post by: yitzgar on March 30, 2020, 05:57:55 PM
Okay ladies and gents, I don't want to have to babysit this thread and its posters. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks, and don't name individuals or communities unless there's a to'eles.Thank you
Thank you.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 30, 2020, 05:58:51 PM
Leave my shvigger out of this, you pathetic peripatetic.
Oh, you want to go the alliteration route? I'd rethink that with your names beginning with an S and an F.
Post by: mme on March 30, 2020, 06:00:38 PM
You forgot the second half of the quote "if you don't believe them, you are a kofer"and it finishes "so you have to believe that i could have happened"
Post by: hvaces42 on March 30, 2020, 06:05:23 PM
You forgot the second half of the quote "if you don't believe them, you are a kofer"Correct. i didnt think this sophisticated crowd needed me to finish a well know vort. ;D
So somewhere in between is a good balance.
So when you look in the mirror after this is all over and you didnt go to a minyan and followed psak halacha does that make you a bad Jew? NO. Does that make you someone who wasnt moiser nefesh for a mitzvah? No.
My whole point is that this vision that has been cultivated in these biographies of what mesrius nefesh looks/looked like is now coming home to roost in what is clearly not a situation that requires mesirus nefesh. Everyone wants to look in the mirror and see themselves as having done the right thing. The right thing is not to be doing something that has been banned. Going lifnim meshuras hadin in tying to circumvent the ban is not mesirus nefesh. Someone please post the quote for our resident shabbos goy about fooling our G-d
Post by: ltttc on March 30, 2020, 06:15:46 PM
Okay ladies and gents, I don't want to have to babysit this thread and its posters. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks, and don't name individuals or communities.+100
Thank you.
Post by: ExGingi on March 30, 2020, 06:17:44 PM
Minyan in EY of COVID-19 positive people offering to say Kaddish for others.
Post by: S209 on March 30, 2020, 07:07:44 PM
Moreover, if the attacks are on a religion, piety is understandable. In this case, it's an external force.This is the main point people are not understanding. There is a major difference between shaas hashmad and shaas hamageifa. Thats why I actually do understand some people in Meah Shearim, they believe its just a ruse by the Tzionim. But who do you think youre getting by being machmir now?
Post by: yitzgar on March 30, 2020, 07:31:33 PM
This is the main point people are not understanding. There is a major difference between shaas hashmad and shaas hamageifa. Thats why I actually do understand some people in Meah Shearim, they believe its just a ruse by the Tzionim. But who do you think youre getting by being machmir now?I think this is a good point, but it is worded wrong. There is not necessarily a difference between shaas hashmad and shaas hamageifa (unless it has a din of mesiras nefesh in a very literal sense). At both times one should be pious. The difference is that what constitutes piety in he former situation, is not pious in the latter situation. People need to realize that staying home and not making minyanim is avodas Hashem, because of pikuach nefesh, sakana of aiva and ועשיתה ככל אשר יורוך (even if you think you are "smart" enough to know how to bypass the first two concerns)
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 08:08:33 PM
This is the main point people are not understanding. There is a major difference between shaas hashmad and shaas hamageifa. Thats why I actually do understand some people in Meah Shearim, they believe its just a ruse by the Tzionim. But who do you think youre getting by being machmir now?
So this is a different problem, part of that has to do with being sheltered.
Again I'm not attacking anybody's way of life or derech..
It's why I read the NY times,
It's also the problem with the yellow flag guys in crown heights.
Post by: chevron on March 30, 2020, 11:02:04 PM
Post by: ari3 on March 31, 2020, 12:27:28 AM
So this is a different problem, part of that has to do with being sheltered.When all you hear from someone is continuous criticism of rabbonim and of people davening with a minyan when they should not be one starts to wonder if there is an underlying disdain for these people and not just being so concerned about his fellow jews. Do we have a cat or a housewife here?
Again I'm not attacking anybody's way of life or derech..
It's why I read the NY times,
It's also the problem with the yellow flag guys in crown heights.
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 12:59:12 AM
When all you hear from someone is continuous criticism of rabbonim and of people davening with a minyan when they should not be one starts to wonder if there is an underlying disdain for these people and not just being so concerned about his fellow jews. Do we have a cat or a housewife here?
Take your pilpul and shove it ;)
If there was an underlying disdain, the mods would have banned me.... @jj1000 knows who and what I'm dealing with.
Yes absolutely I get ahead of myself.. have you spoken to wife's of doctors working 18 hours a day who don't know when they will next if ever see their husband ?
Agenda!! Oh this guy hates minyans.. spends 10 years building a shull, really hates minyanim...
I have no agenda being being frustrated, beyond feeling and seeing the pain of humans suffering .
I was very lucky that I was able to forge lifelong friendships and relationships with some of the top doctors in the world.
Their feelings, fears, emotions etc are what I project here.
I don't care if I'm being baited or mocked, it's a message of urgency I'm preaching.
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 01:12:14 AM
When all you hear from someone is continuous criticism of rabbonim and of people davening with a minyan when they should not be one starts to wonder if there is an underlying disdain for these people and not just being so concerned about his fellow jews. Do we have a cat or a housewife here?
Also what I wrote that you quoted has nothing to do with agendas It has entirely to do with what people perceive is going on.
As was mentioned, in meah sheaarim they see this a clash with the Medina
Yerushalayim had many plauges over time as @hvaces42 very well stated, just read legends of Jerusalem or many other such books.
in some circumstances we are actually criticizing people who know better but refuses to listen
In other cases people just simply are not seeing the whole picture this has nothing to do with them It's just the circumstances.. just as the fire burns in them, the fire burns in me
I see the directive by hashem "v'chaim bahem" you need to be alive to do the mitzvahs
It's a mitzvas asei mi'deoraisai to do all one can to stay alive (see rambam regarding one who can save his life but instead insists on dying Al Kiddush hashem)
So that people miss minyan for 6 months and are then zoche to 60 more years of minyan.
Does that make me so terrible?
And to go to minyan, get sick and not be able to eat matza, where's the logic in that?!! It's hepech kol hatorah!
I keep getting criticized by people who claim I feel I'm smarter than rabbanim
Are you smarter than God? The Torah says "vehigadata levincha" How are you going to tell your children the story of yetzias mitzraim while in ICU..
Post by: Shmobaum on March 31, 2020, 01:18:04 AM
Then theyll wonder how come theyre kids dont have respect for Chachomim...
Post by: Chapshnell on March 31, 2020, 01:24:13 AM
Also what I wrote that you quoted has nothing to do with agendas It has entirely to do with what people perceive is going on.
As was mentioned, in meah sheaarim they see this a clash with the Medina
Yerushalayim had many plauges over time as @hvaces42 very well stated, just read legends of Jerusalem or many other such books.
in some circumstances we are actually criticizing people who know better but refuses to listen
In other cases people just simply are not seeing the whole picture this has nothing to do with them It's just the circumstances.. just as the fire burns in them, the fire burns in me
I see the directive by hashem "v'chaim bahem" you need to be alive to do the mitzvahs
It's a mitzvas asei mi'deoraisai to do all one can to stay alive (see rambam regarding one who can save his life but instead insists on dying Al Kiddush hashem)
So that people miss minyan for 6 months and are then zoche to 60 more years of minyan.
Does that make me so terrible?
And to go to minyan, get sick and not be able to eat matza, where's the logic in that?!! It's hepech kol hatorah!
I keep getting criticized by people who claim I feel I'm smarter than rabbanim
Are you smarter than God? The Torah says "vehigadata levincha" How are you going to tell your children the story of yetzias mitzraim while in ICU..
Thank you
Post by: Shmobaum on March 31, 2020, 01:40:12 AM
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 02:18:02 AM
The only solace I have is that this is what the gemara means - בעוקבתא דמשיחא חוצפא יסגי...
What, that they no longer will listen to the rabbanim?
I guess, I sure hope techiyas hameisim comes soon, we will be out of live ones
Post by: YitzyS on March 31, 2020, 07:43:13 AM
Take your pilpul and shove it ;)This forum is hardly a religious one, so no one cares what you believe or who you hate. But just as the non-Jews on this tread don't try to peddle their religion to the Jews, and vice versa, it is wrong to rant about rabbonim when the vast majority of this thread will get very offended by it.
If there was an underlying disdain, the mods would have banned me.... @jj1000 knows who and what I'm dealing with.
Yes absolutely I get ahead of myself.. have you spoken to wife's of doctors working 18 hours a day who don't know when they will next if ever see their husband ?
Agenda!! Oh this guy hates minyans.. spends 10 years building a shull, really hates minyanim...
I have no agenda being being frustrated, beyond feeling and seeing the pain of humans suffering .
I was very lucky that I was able to forge lifelong friendships and relationships with some of the top doctors in the world.
Their feelings, fears, emotions etc are what I project here.
I don't care if I'm being baited or mocked, it's a message of urgency I'm preaching.
That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 07:57:37 AM
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
Post by: yuneeq on March 31, 2020, 08:23:31 AM
Some are making the argument,
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
Is this the bad humor thread? The shuls closed because the hospitals were getting flooded!!!
PIKUACH NEFESH ABOVE ALL, THAT IS RATZON HASHEM!!
Post by: yitzgar on March 31, 2020, 08:33:47 AM
Post by: good sam on March 31, 2020, 08:38:01 AM
Some are making the argument,I hope you aren't one of those people
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
Post by: hvaces42 on March 31, 2020, 09:04:51 AM
Some are making the argument,This?
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 09:17:45 AM
Some are making the argument,This is so ignorant and misguided I have no words.
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
Post by: israshot on March 31, 2020, 09:19:36 AM
Some are making the argument,
from the day the Schools and Synagogues were shut ,
Deaths in the religious community have heartbreakingly soared.
Because people are not learning and praying,
they are no longer protected . !
posting stupidity
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 09:21:55 AM
This?https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=114678.0;attach=34889;imageYes !!
This is what it says .
I did not make this up .
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 09:25:51 AM
This is so ignorant and misguided I have no words.It may be wrong , but you should know that there
way more ignorant and misguided things posted here.
Read some of the disgusting rants posted in this thread ?
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 09:27:31 AM
Learn and pray in your housePraying and Learning with Ten is way more powerful.
See Talmud Berachot .
Post by: Baglach on March 31, 2020, 09:28:59 AM
Yes !!Many of these things are 100% fake news and i highly doubt he ever said that, we are seeing now the effect of purim, if everything would still have been open we would have seen 5x that amount in 2-3weeks RL.
This is what it says .
I did not make this up .
Besides the fact learning at home is always a possibility
Post by: yesitsme on March 31, 2020, 09:29:34 AM
Praying and Learning with Ten is way more powerful.+Keeping Shabbos, cant be better then that, I hope Hatzalah stops operating on Shabbos
See Talmud Berachot .
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 09:29:58 AM
Praying and Learning with Ten is way more powerful.
See Talmud Berachot .
Words are also pretty powerful. Here's one for you: Rotzeach. Powerful word.
Post by: israshot on March 31, 2020, 09:31:49 AM
Praying and Learning with Ten is way more powerful.Please also explain how shabbos is powerful. Then go on explaining פיקוח נפש. Then go on explaining how going against all the Rabonim is powerful.
See Talmud Berachot .
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 09:32:58 AM
Words are also pretty powerful. Here's one for you: Rotzeach. Powerful word.Correct . Read the Rebbes words . He is saying
YOU are a Rotzeach for closing the Shuls .
YOU are the cause the Many People are dying .
If the Shuls are opened people will live .
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 09:34:36 AM
Please also explain how shabbos is powerful. Then go on explaining פיקוח נפש. Then go on explaining how going against all the Rabonim is powerful.
Enough with this! Show me a Gadol HaDor, a Gadol BaTorah, a Rov, a community leader who isn't willing to be moichel on their kavod in order to save Jewish lives, and I'll show you a person who doesn deserve their title or position.
Post by: yesitsme on March 31, 2020, 09:34:52 AM
Correct . Read the Rebbes words . He is sayingI guess you're lucky you're only on screen.
YOU are a Rotzeach for closing the Shuls .
YOU are the cause the Many People are dying .
If the Shuls are opened people will live .
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 09:35:55 AM
Correct . Read the Rebbes words . He is saying
YOU are a Rotzeach for closing the Shuls .
YOU are the cause the Many People are dying .
If the Shuls are opened people will live .
#NotMaRabbi
Post by: israshot on March 31, 2020, 09:38:22 AM
Enough with this! Show me a Gadol HaDor, a Gadol BaTorah, a Rov, a community leader who isn't willing to be moichel on their kavod in order to save Jewish lives, and I'll show you a person who doesn deserve their title or position.You got me wrong. We are both saying the same thing. I was responding to @doodle that he's going against all the Rabbonim.
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 09:43:15 AM
You got me wrong. We are both saying the same thing. I was responding to @doodle that he's going against all the Rabbonim.
My apologies. I'm just tired of people willing to shout for kavod but not for lives. If our education system hasn't instilled the importance of a Jewish life over all else, we're doing this wrong.
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 09:49:20 AM
My apologies. I'm just tired of people willing to shout for kavod but not for lives. If our education system hasn't instilled the importance of a Jewish life over all else, we're doing this wrong.Very true .
But has zero relevance to the subject at hand .
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 10:00:05 AM
Very true .
But has zero relevance to the subject at hand .
When a Rebbe says the reason people are dying is because they closed the schools and shuls, then he is literally playing with lives. And when people call him out on it, and others shout them down because how dare they disagree with Daas Torah and Tzaddikim, then it's relevant.
Post by: yelped on March 31, 2020, 10:05:44 AM
*בעניין תפילה בימי הקורונה ה"י*
אור ליום שלישי פרשת צו אור לו ניסן תש"פ
במענה לשאלת רבים
בענין השאלה האם לארגן מניינים בהתר בגניבה על הגגות ובחדרי המדרגות ובכל מקום היכול להביא לאינטרקציה וקירבה פיזית בין אנשים אפי ביותר משני מטר.
עד כמה שידוע לי מהמציאות כעת נראה לענ"ד דיש להיזהר ולהישמר בכל היכולת שלא לפגוש אנשים גם לא במרחק שני מטר. והמזלזל בכך קרוב להיות שופך דמים ח"ו בשוגג הקרוב למזיד ודמו ודם חביריו תלויים בראש המזלזל ומיקיל בזה השם ישמרינו.
זכינו למצוה נדירה של פעם בכמאה שנים
מצוות הצלת נפשות כפשוטה ע"י כולנו לא רק חברי הצלה לא רק מנתחי לב
והוא סגולה הכי גדולה לקבלת התפילות
כל השומר את עצמו מלצאת מחוץ לבית שלא לצורך חיוני כקניית מצרכים ופרנסה הרי הוא עסוק בהצלת נפשות בפועל ממש וזכותו גדולה עד אין לשער.
יש בתפילה בציבור ב' חלקים
א. מצוה. וכעת המצוה להתפלל ביחידות.
ב. סגולה. וכעת הסגולה הכי גדולה נרכשת על ידי שמירה מלהיות בגדר רוצח [וכמעט שאפשר לומר בצחות אפרומער חסידישער רוצ... רח"ל] ח"ו.
וע"י הלב נשבר שיש לכולנו בבחינה מסוימת מהמצב.
כל השומע לענ"ד ירחק נפשו בימים אלו מתפילה בציבור אפי בשטח פתוח.
זה בלתי אפשרי שלא להתקרב זה לזה.
ועל פי חכמת המתמטיקה והסטיסטיקה כל פגישה בודדת כהיום שוות ערך לפגישה עם יותר ממאות אנשים לפני שבועיים.
בימים אלו מתחילים לראות את זרעי המוות והפורענות שנזרעו בפגישות זה עם זה לפני כשבועיים אמנם בעיקר בחו"ל אבל זה בדרך לכאן על כל שונאי ישראל והלוואי והשיי"ת יחוס וירחם עלינו שאתבדה.
התורה מעידה עלינו רק עם חכם ונבון וגו' ואיזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד.
התפילה ביחידות בימים אלו אינו קולא אלא חומרא. ולא חומרא להידור אלא חומרא וחובה מעיקר הדין. בשביל להינצל מאיסור רציחה הקרוב למזיד ח"ו.
כל המתפלל ביחידות בבית יקבל על זה שכר השמור למציל נפש אחת ונפשות רבות מאד מישראל.
כאשר יתחילו רח"ל ההלויות של [ששהשיי"ת שלא יהיו כי אם רק אצל שונאי ישראל ח"ו] כל שונאי ישראל רח"ל כבר יהיה מאוחר מדאי
עלינו לתפוס את עצמינו כעת לפני שיופיעו אצל שונאי ישראל התמונות בהמודיע שרואים כעת מאחינו בבורו פארק ויליאמסבורג ומונסי ולייקווד וקראן הייטס וכו' עם הזקנים הלבנים המשובצים בזקנים שחורים.
כעת מוטל עלינו לזכור איך שהם הם המזכירים לנו את דברי יהודי אונגרין בשלוותם היחסית כאשר הגיעו איליהם פליטי פולין וגאליציה היו לא תהיה.
כמובן שלא מדובר במספרים כ"כ גדולים ואין ליכנס לפאניקה מוגזמת אבל בכל זאת מדובר בחיים של שלנו ושל חברינו לאורך ימים ושנים טובות ונעימות.
וכל המשים אל ליבו כעת להישמר ולראות את [שאינו רוצה שיהיה] הנולד הוא זה שיוכל לומר בעז"ה ידינו לא שפכו את הדם וגו' ומכלל הן וכו' ומידה טובה מרובה.
דעה זו היא דעת רבים המתריעים על כך מזה כמה שבועות. ולדעתם של רבים אלו ברור שכל או כמעט כל האומרים ומפרסמים דיעה שונה הרי זה משום שלא הביאו להם את כל נתוני האמת בדבר סכנה זו.
אלא שעד עתה היתה דעתם של המתריעים כקול קורא במדבר.
אולי יש שמסתכלים עליהם בענין זה כתמהוניים והזויים וזה מרתיע ולא נעים לדבר באופן כל כך חריף אבל אני הקטן כשלעצמי אינני יכול לטמון את ראשי בחול.
הסכנה ברורה!
הכתובת רשומה על הקיר !
והמצב ש[לא]יהיה כאן בעוד שבועיים פלוס ג"כ ברור........ לכל מי שאינו מנסה להשלות את עצמו!!!
חוסו על נפשותיכם והתפללו בבית ואל תצאו איש מפתח ביתו
וכל המתפלל בבית מציל נפשות ויבא על שכרו.
אלא שיש לעשות זאת ברוגע בלי פאניקה כי בכל זאת ברוך השם האחוזים מאד נמוכים ואינם מצדיקים בהלה ופאניקה.
פשוט שראוי לכוון את הילדים ואת עצמינו לעשות זאת באופן חינוכי. כגון להקצות פינת תפילה ולהתפלל בשעה שידוע שיש בו רבים המתפללים ויה"ר שנצליח לעשות זאת בחכמה ובאופן חינוכי.
ב"ה שריחם עלינו ומזה כמאה שנה ויותר לא היתה מגיפה רצינית.
אבל כל מי שקרא בספרי קדמונינו יודע שבכל הדורות נהגו כן בעת מגיפה להסתגר בהסגר אין יוצא ואין בא.
אין זה חידוש של דור זה אלא בכל דור בעת מגיפה היו בהסגר כמובן שהכל תלוי לפי חומרת המגיפה ואם המגיפה היתה חזקה היו מקיימים הפסוק בישעיה כפשוטו וכפשט רבי ישעי' מטראני
לֵ֤ךְ עַמִּי֙ בֹּ֣א בַחֲדָרֶ֔יךָ וּֽסֲגֹ֥ר דְּלָתְךָ֖ בַּעֲדֶ֑ךָ חֲבִ֥י כִמְעַט־רֶ֖גַע עַד־יַעֲבָר־זָֽעַם: (ישעיהו פרק כו פסוק כ)
.
חביבה מצוה בשעתה נאמר גם על מצווה גדולה כתפילה בציבור.
ויה"ר שלא נהיה כמו
האוכל חמץ בסוכה בליל פסח משום שאוהב מאד את מצוות סוכה
והאוכל מצה בבית בחג הסוכות משום שאוהב מאד את מצוות מצה
החביבות של תפילה במנין הוא רק מפני שהקב"ה צווה עליה
והוא זה המעצאוה שציוה עלינו כעת להישמר מהסכנה ולחוס ולרחם על חיינו חיי חברינו.
הנני חוזר וכופל בזה את הנראה לענ"ד כי ממהר האלוקים לעשותו על כל שונאי ישראל ליזהר בכל היכולת שלא לצאת כלל מהבית ללכת ליד ובסמוך לאנשים. הוא, בניו, בנותיו, ובני ביתו. כי אם לצורך קניית מצרכים חיוניים שיהא לגוף ולמערכת החיסון כוח ע"י אכילה ושתיה ברווח כל אחד לפי צרכו.
או לצורך פרנסה שעל זה התירה התורה להסתכן.
וחוץ מלצורך מצרכים חיוניים ופרנסה יש להיזהר מאד להיות סגור בבית עד כמה שאפשר.
אי"צ לציין לחסידישע יידן את הגלוי וידוע לכולנו שיש להיזהר מאד מאד שכאשר די וועלט וועט צוריק זיין וועלט חזרה מצווה למקומה ביתר שאת וביתר עוז להתפלל בציבור עם כל העניינים הגדולים שבמצוה גדולה זו שיש ליזהר ולהתאמץ מאד בעבורה הן מצד עצם גדלות המצוה והן מצד הסגולה.
מיותר לציין שצריך לעשות כל מאמץ להיות בשמחה ובנחת וברוגע ובשלוה ביותר מבימים כתיקונם. וכדברי מר"ש במכתב קדשו. ומי שמרגיש בעצמו צורך להתאוורר להרחיב דעתו ייצא לשוח בשדה וברחוב לבד במאה מטר הסמוך לביתו.
ובזכות מצוה גדולה זו המכרעת את כל מצוות התורה נזכה לכל הברכות שהבטיחה התורה בגשמיות וברוחניות ולאריכות ימים ושנים רבות טובות ונעימות נשמה בגוף בהאי עלמא לנחת רוח לפניו יתברך מתוך שמחה הרחבה וכל טוב סלה.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 10:09:27 AM
Very true .It is very relevant when 99.99% of rabbonim and gedolim are saying to daven at home and people still feel that the frum thing is to make minyanim.
But has zero relevance to the subject at hand .
Post by: Abebee on March 31, 2020, 10:10:47 AM
It is very relevant when 99.99% of rabbonim and gedolim are saying to daven at home and people still feel that the frum thing is to make minyanim.Those with proper guidance are davening at home for at least 2 weeks already.
Post by: flyingace on March 31, 2020, 10:18:09 AM
מכתב מאת הדומ"ץ הגאון רבי אשר ישעיה זלפריינד שליט"א:Who is this letter from?
*בעניין תפילה בימי הקורונה ה"י*
אור ליום שלישי פרשת צו אור לו ניסן תש"פ
במענה לשאלת רבים
בענין השאלה האם לארגן מניינים בהתר בגניבה על הגגות ובחדרי המדרגות ובכל מקום היכול להביא לאינטרקציה וקירבה פיזית בין אנשים אפי ביותר משני מטר.
עד כמה שידוע לי מהמציאות כעת נראה לענ"ד דיש להיזהר ולהישמר בכל היכולת שלא לפגוש אנשים גם לא במרחק שני מטר. והמזלזל בכך קרוב להיות שופך דמים ח"ו בשוגג הקרוב למזיד ודמו ודם חביריו תלויים בראש המזלזל ומיקיל בזה השם ישמרינו.
זכינו למצוה נדירה של פעם בכמאה שנים
מצוות הצלת נפשות כפשוטה ע"י כולנו לא רק חברי הצלה לא רק מנתחי לב
והוא סגולה הכי גדולה לקבלת התפילות
כל השומר את עצמו מלצאת מחוץ לבית שלא לצורך חיוני כקניית מצרכים ופרנסה הרי הוא עסוק בהצלת נפשות בפועל ממש וזכותו גדולה עד אין לשער.
יש בתפילה בציבור ב' חלקים
א. מצוה. וכעת המצוה להתפלל ביחידות.
ב. סגולה. וכעת הסגולה הכי גדולה נרכשת על ידי שמירה מלהיות בגדר רוצח [וכמעט שאפשר לומר בצחות אפרומער חסידישער רוצ... רח"ל] ח"ו.
וע"י הלב נשבר שיש לכולנו בבחינה מסוימת מהמצב.
כל השומע לענ"ד ירחק נפשו בימים אלו מתפילה בציבור אפי בשטח פתוח.
זה בלתי אפשרי שלא להתקרב זה לזה.
ועל פי חכמת המתמטיקה והסטיסטיקה כל פגישה בודדת כהיום שוות ערך לפגישה עם יותר ממאות אנשים לפני שבועיים.
בימים אלו מתחילים לראות את זרעי המוות והפורענות שנזרעו בפגישות זה עם זה לפני כשבועיים אמנם בעיקר בחו"ל אבל זה בדרך לכאן על כל שונאי ישראל והלוואי והשיי"ת יחוס וירחם עלינו שאתבדה.
התורה מעידה עלינו רק עם חכם ונבון וגו' ואיזהו חכם הרואה את הנולד.
התפילה ביחידות בימים אלו אינו קולא אלא חומרא. ולא חומרא להידור אלא חומרא וחובה מעיקר הדין. בשביל להינצל מאיסור רציחה הקרוב למזיד ח"ו.
כל המתפלל ביחידות בבית יקבל על זה שכר השמור למציל נפש אחת ונפשות רבות מאד מישראל.
כאשר יתחילו רח"ל ההלויות של [ששהשיי"ת שלא יהיו כי אם רק אצל שונאי ישראל ח"ו] כל שונאי ישראל רח"ל כבר יהיה מאוחר מדאי
עלינו לתפוס את עצמינו כעת לפני שיופיעו אצל שונאי ישראל התמונות בהמודיע שרואים כעת מאחינו בבורו פארק ויליאמסבורג ומונסי ולייקווד וקראן הייטס וכו' עם הזקנים הלבנים המשובצים בזקנים שחורים.
כעת מוטל עלינו לזכור איך שהם הם המזכירים לנו את דברי יהודי אונגרין בשלוותם היחסית כאשר הגיעו איליהם פליטי פולין וגאליציה היו לא תהיה.
כמובן שלא מדובר במספרים כ"כ גדולים ואין ליכנס לפאניקה מוגזמת אבל בכל זאת מדובר בחיים של שלנו ושל חברינו לאורך ימים ושנים טובות ונעימות.
וכל המשים אל ליבו כעת להישמר ולראות את [שאינו רוצה שיהיה] הנולד הוא זה שיוכל לומר בעז"ה ידינו לא שפכו את הדם וגו' ומכלל הן וכו' ומידה טובה מרובה.
דעה זו היא דעת רבים המתריעים על כך מזה כמה שבועות. ולדעתם של רבים אלו ברור שכל או כמעט כל האומרים ומפרסמים דיעה שונה הרי זה משום שלא הביאו להם את כל נתוני האמת בדבר סכנה זו.
אלא שעד עתה היתה דעתם של המתריעים כקול קורא במדבר.
אולי יש שמסתכלים עליהם בענין זה כתמהוניים והזויים וזה מרתיע ולא נעים לדבר באופן כל כך חריף אבל אני הקטן כשלעצמי אינני יכול לטמון את ראשי בחול.
הסכנה ברורה!
הכתובת רשומה על הקיר !
והמצב ש[לא]יהיה כאן בעוד שבועיים פלוס ג"כ ברור........ לכל מי שאינו מנסה להשלות את עצמו!!!
חוסו על נפשותיכם והתפללו בבית ואל תצאו איש מפתח ביתו
וכל המתפלל בבית מציל נפשות ויבא על שכרו.
אלא שיש לעשות זאת ברוגע בלי פאניקה כי בכל זאת ברוך השם האחוזים מאד נמוכים ואינם מצדיקים בהלה ופאניקה.
פשוט שראוי לכוון את הילדים ואת עצמינו לעשות זאת באופן חינוכי. כגון להקצות פינת תפילה ולהתפלל בשעה שידוע שיש בו רבים המתפללים ויה"ר שנצליח לעשות זאת בחכמה ובאופן חינוכי.
ב"ה שריחם עלינו ומזה כמאה שנה ויותר לא היתה מגיפה רצינית.
אבל כל מי שקרא בספרי קדמונינו יודע שבכל הדורות נהגו כן בעת מגיפה להסתגר בהסגר אין יוצא ואין בא.
אין זה חידוש של דור זה אלא בכל דור בעת מגיפה היו בהסגר כמובן שהכל תלוי לפי חומרת המגיפה ואם המגיפה היתה חזקה היו מקיימים הפסוק בישעיה כפשוטו וכפשט רבי ישעי' מטראני
לֵ֤ךְ עַמִּי֙ בֹּ֣א בַחֲדָרֶ֔יךָ וּֽסֲגֹ֥ר דְּלָתְךָ֖ בַּעֲדֶ֑ךָ חֲבִ֥י כִמְעַט־רֶ֖גַע עַד־יַעֲבָר־זָֽעַם: (ישעיהו פרק כו פסוק כ)
.
חביבה מצוה בשעתה נאמר גם על מצווה גדולה כתפילה בציבור.
ויה"ר שלא נהיה כמו
האוכל חמץ בסוכה בליל פסח משום שאוהב מאד את מצוות סוכה
והאוכל מצה בבית בחג הסוכות משום שאוהב מאד את מצוות מצה
החביבות של תפילה במנין הוא רק מפני שהקב"ה צווה עליה
והוא זה המעצאוה שציוה עלינו כעת להישמר מהסכנה ולחוס ולרחם על חיינו חיי חברינו.
הנני חוזר וכופל בזה את הנראה לענ"ד כי ממהר האלוקים לעשותו על כל שונאי ישראל ליזהר בכל היכולת שלא לצאת כלל מהבית ללכת ליד ובסמוך לאנשים. הוא, בניו, בנותיו, ובני ביתו. כי אם לצורך קניית מצרכים חיוניים שיהא לגוף ולמערכת החיסון כוח ע"י אכילה ושתיה ברווח כל אחד לפי צרכו.
או לצורך פרנסה שעל זה התירה התורה להסתכן.
וחוץ מלצורך מצרכים חיוניים ופרנסה יש להיזהר מאד להיות סגור בבית עד כמה שאפשר.
אי"צ לציין לחסידישע יידן את הגלוי וידוע לכולנו שיש להיזהר מאד מאד שכאשר די וועלט וועט צוריק זיין וועלט חזרה מצווה למקומה ביתר שאת וביתר עוז להתפלל בציבור עם כל העניינים הגדולים שבמצוה גדולה זו שיש ליזהר ולהתאמץ מאד בעבורה הן מצד עצם גדלות המצוה והן מצד הסגולה.
מיותר לציין שצריך לעשות כל מאמץ להיות בשמחה ובנחת וברוגע ובשלוה ביותר מבימים כתיקונם. וכדברי מר"ש במכתב קדשו. ומי שמרגיש בעצמו צורך להתאוורר להרחיב דעתו ייצא לשוח בשדה וברחוב לבד במאה מטר הסמוך לביתו.
ובזכות מצוה גדולה זו המכרעת את כל מצוות התורה נזכה לכל הברכות שהבטיחה התורה בגשמיות וברוחניות ולאריכות ימים ושנים רבות טובות ונעימות נשמה בגוף בהאי עלמא לנחת רוח לפניו יתברך מתוך שמחה הרחבה וכל טוב סלה.
Post by: Yehudaa on March 31, 2020, 10:21:15 AM
Who is this letter from?
הדומ"ץ הגאון רבי אשר ישעיה זלפריינד שליט"א
אחד מחשובי הדיינים בחסידות בעלז
Post by: flyingace on March 31, 2020, 10:22:33 AM
אחד מחשובי הדיינים בחסידות בעלזThanks. I wonder if the Amshinov poster is real?!
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 10:24:39 AM
It is very relevant when 99.99% of rabbonim and gedolim are saying to daven at home and people still feel that the frum thing is to make minyanim.You took a poll ?
Who said its 99.99 % ?
Every Frum Yid who disagrees with you
is from the .01 % and you are from the 99.99% ??
You sound very arrogant.
I hope its just from being locked up .
Post by: hvaces42 on March 31, 2020, 10:29:06 AM
Thanks. I wonder if the Amshinov poster is real?!Even if it isnt its a sentiment that is echoed by those who still insist on making minyanim clandestinely.
Post by: Lurker on March 31, 2020, 10:29:20 AM
You took a poll ?
Who said its 99.99 % ?
Every Frum Yid who disagrees with you
is from the .01 % and you are from the 99.99% ??
You sound very arrogant.
I hope its just from being locked up .
I'm going to keep on engaging you, because I hope the longer I keep you online, the less time you have to be putting people's lives at risk.
How many Rabbonim do you know that are currently advocating to disregard the medical consensus and open schools and shuls?
Post by: flyingace on March 31, 2020, 10:32:22 AM
Even if it isnt its a sentiment that is echoed by those who still insist on making minyanim clandestinely.The Amshinover is a very holy person. I wouldn't change anything in how I am behaving, though. As far as I know he is also very into people doing the best medical hishtadlus possible. Interesting to know, that's all. Most of the people doing it are going AGAINST their Rabbonim.
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 31, 2020, 10:34:07 AM
I'm sure he doesn't actually daven with a minyan, as doing that would require friends to inform you where such minyanim are taking place.
Post by: hvaces42 on March 31, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Every Rov who has not locked the doors to his shul so that no person may enter for any reason is a someone who is disregarding the rules. Plenty of shuls that are "closed" yet minyanim going on in or around them with the rov or hanhalah turning a blind eye towards it.
How many Rabbonim do you know that are currently advocating to disregard the medical consensus and open schools and shuls?
On a side note: When I told my Rov 3 weeks ago that he allowed a kiddush to happen in shul and that it was irresponsible and selfish of the baal simcha to have made the kiddush he looked at me like I was nuts. P.S. He's laid up in bed for a week already because he was too slow to close the shul and it still remains accesible.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 10:38:25 AM
You took a poll ?
Who said its 99.99 % ?
Every Frum Yid who disagrees with you
is from the .01 % and you are from the 99.99% ??
You sound very arrogant.
I hope its just from being locked up .
So how about you give us some names who are advocating it besides one poster in the name of the Amshinover (still unclear as to its authenticity)
A list of those calling those making minyanim things like rodfim and rotzchim is very easy to compile and will be very long without being nearly comprehensive.
Post by: good sam on March 31, 2020, 10:41:09 AM
You took a poll ?I would like to hear the rabbanim still advocating for minyanim say that they are expressly taking achrayis for anyone who dies as a result.
Who said its 99.99 % ?
Every Frum Yid who disagrees with you
is from the .01 % and you are from the 99.99% ??
You sound very arrogant.
I hope its just from being locked up .
Post by: Baglach on March 31, 2020, 10:41:49 AM
The Amshinover is a very holy person. I wouldn't change anything in how I am behaving, though. As far as I know he is also very into people doing the best medical hishtadlus possible. Interesting to know, that's all. Most of the people doing it are going AGAINST their Rabbonim.Its probably fake, I live in Israel and probably 90% of these stuff is fake, precisely because he is holy they put his name
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 10:42:07 AM
I would like to hear the rabbanim still advocating for minyanim say that they are expressly taking achrayis for anyone who dies as a result.First find out who may be advocating for them other than one thing going around Whatsapp.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2020, 11:28:46 AM
Considering his posting history, it's the least surprising thing ever that doodle would be willing to sacrifice as many people as it takes to maintain his personal perverted frumkeit.You have been Best Of'd
I'm sure he doesn't actually daven with a minyan, as doing that would require friends to inform you where such minyanim are taking place.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=53386.msg2221230#msg2221230
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 31, 2020, 11:30:19 AM
You have been Best Of'dHeh, I had half a mind to report my own post to the mods for its personal attack against another member
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=53386.msg2221230#msg2221230
Post by: CountValentine on March 31, 2020, 11:35:12 AM
Heh, I had half a mind to report my own post to the mods for its personal attack against another memberI did it for you. ;)
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 31, 2020, 11:36:32 AM
I did it for you. ;)Thank you, slave. Now if you don't mind to come upstairs to turn on my faucet, I need to wash my hands.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2020, 11:37:05 AM
Heh, I had half a mind to report my own post to the mods for its personal attack against another memberRules don't apply to doodle, he said so himself.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 31, 2020, 11:37:30 AM
Post by: Yammer on March 31, 2020, 11:52:56 AM
This?
Yes !!
This is what it says .
I did not make this up .
Correct . Read the Rebbes words . He is saying
YOU are a Rotzeach for closing the Shuls .
YOU are the cause the Many People are dying .
If the Shuls are opened people will live .
Thanks. I wonder if the Amshinov poster is real?!
Its probably fake, I live in Israel and probably 90% of these stuff is fake, precisely because he is holy they put his name+1000
According to 2 of his Chassidim it's lie.
Post by: EliJelly on March 31, 2020, 11:59:23 AM
Post by: doodle on March 31, 2020, 12:01:28 PM
Rules don't apply to doodle, he said so himself.As usual , You want this forum to be all similar opinions,
boring and average.
Brilliant Marketing.
Ok , I wont post here .
Win For You ...
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 12:01:45 PM
Who used foul language on the previous page?? Of all of DDF my filter will only block that page :(Shouldn't be hard to guess
Post by: yesitsme on March 31, 2020, 12:04:52 PM
Quote
Yes we are keeping the world alive with our tefilas
We are keeping to all laws
Houses of worship are not ordered closed
https://esd.ny.gov/guidance-executive-order-2026
UPDATED: MARCH 27, 2020 at 11:00 AM
ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES OR ENTITIES, including any for profit or non-profit, regardless of the nature of the service, the function they perform, or its corporate or entity structure, are not subject to the in-person restriction
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2020, 12:18:36 PM
As usual , You want this forum to be all similar opinions,If I wanted that I'd have banned you long ago. Healthy debates make DDF great.
boring and average.
Brilliant Marketing.
Ok , I wont post here .
Win For You ...
But I'm not about to enforce protections for people advocating and justifying murder.
Post by: yelped on March 31, 2020, 12:36:08 PM
I asked a shul why they still have minyanim I got this responseAnd what was your response to them?
Post by: yakov116 on March 31, 2020, 12:39:30 PM
And what was your response to them?Whatya think, he was there at the next one :) /s
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 01:00:22 PM
I'm upset that many waited too long / too late.
I'm upset at people's misguided frumkeit
I'm equally upset at people out there partying or gathering etc but #1 that's not my environment #2 people aren't partying in the name of Judaism (save for weddings)
And I agree with @PlatinumGuy is minyan etc the new l'havdil Baal and Molech?
Our entire religious belief is based on staying alive to serve God.
Kol zman sheha'ner dolek.. ..
That's in regards to the individual... Listen there are many people who do not understand what's going on still and it's easy to manipulate zealous people..
The sick people printing the fake posters should be arrested
Post by: Chapshnell on March 31, 2020, 01:12:26 PM
I asked a shul why they still have minyanim I got this response
Its a wrong response. Deblasio ordered all halls of prayer shut. I believe that was on Motzai Shabbos. If you want to talk about it from a legal perspective
Post by: zale on March 31, 2020, 01:15:36 PM
Our entire religious belief is based on staying alive to serve God.
Ah, but many people don't think too much into why they are religious in the first place. They do it because their Totty brought them to Shul ever since they were a child and their Cheder Rebbi taught them to Daven and learn. They do it because it's the only thing they know. We don't turn on the light on Shabbos because we have it ingrained in our head since we were children.
As we get older, we are supposed to learn the how's and the why's of Judaism, but by then most of us are not paying attention. So we are left with a rigid understanding of Judaism from childhood without context. When you tell people that they shouldn't go to minyan, it's like saying don't blink. They don't know why they go to minyan in the first place, all they know is that they go every day and that is what they are supposed to do. It's a huge shock to their systematic routine to not go to Shul. I saw a guy writing in a comment that he will go crazy if he can't go to Shul for Tefilas Tal.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 01:17:42 PM
Why am I the rabbanim basher ?
I'm upset that many waited too long / too late.
I'm upset at people's misguided frumkeit
I'm equally upset at people out there partying or gathering etc but #1 that's not my environment #2 people aren't partying in the name of Judaism (save for weddings)
And I agree with @PlatinumGuy is minyan etc the new l'havdil Baal and Molech?
Our entire religious belief is based on staying alive to serve God.
Kol zman sheha'ner dolek.. ..
That's in regards to the individual... Listen there are many people who do not understand what's going on still and it's easy to manipulate zealous people..
The sick people printing the fake posters should be arrested
Because you used foul language about R Chaim Kanievsky.
Post by: yelped on March 31, 2020, 01:45:05 PM
Because you used foul language about R Chaim Kanievsky.Ok ok, we heard that. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
And I think he was referring to Rav Chaim's Shlita surrounding people who filter the information fed to him, not himself.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
Ok ok, we heard that. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.He asked a question and I gave him the answer. Apparently he didn't hear it enough yet.
And I think he was referring to Rav Chaim's Shlita surrounding people who filter the information fed to him, not himself.
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 02:18:39 PM
Because you used foul language about R Chaim Kanievsky.
I was referring to the circumstances.
I did say I am frustrated by his inner circle, nothing and no one gets to Rav Chaim without getting past his inner circle.
Maybe that's the meaning of God blinding tzadikim, they are mislead and not told the situation I dunno.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
I was referring to the circumstances.This is much better. Just make your point without the expletives.
I did say I am frustrated by his inner circle, nothing and no one gets to Rav Chaim without getting past his inner circle.
Maybe that's the meaning of God blinding tzadikim, they are mislead and not told the situation I dunno.
Post by: chevron on March 31, 2020, 02:22:25 PM
This is much better. Just make your point without the expletives.
I did clarify before and I also stated that it was using speech to text, which I often do and it was missing punctuation.
Post by: aygart on March 31, 2020, 02:41:22 PM
I did clarify before and I also stated that it was using speech to text, which I often do and it was missing punctuation.It wasn't the punctuation.
Post by: Luvisrael on March 31, 2020, 05:17:28 PM
Post by: CountValentine on March 31, 2020, 05:37:20 PM
As usual , You want this forum to be all similar opinions,Not that is funny. :)
Post by: 12HRS on April 02, 2020, 10:20:22 PM
Post by: chevron on April 02, 2020, 10:30:33 PM
The guy dancing... ,🤣
Post by: shapsam on April 02, 2020, 10:50:22 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/04/02/watch-queens-rabbi-throws-man-out-of-shul-for-asking-why-hes-open/
The guy dancing... ,🤣
Quote
QUEENS (VINnews) This story has been removed since the Shul in question has been closed
Post by: ltttc on April 02, 2020, 11:12:16 PM
Cross posting hereNice. Amen!
Post by: skyguy918 on April 03, 2020, 10:43:15 AM
Where was it? I don't think anything has been open here for a while already.
Post by: yaakov35 on April 03, 2020, 10:55:01 AM
Where was it? I don't think anything has been open here for a while already.
KGH
Post by: skyguy918 on April 03, 2020, 11:29:04 AM
Lol, that I got. I meant which shul, though on reflection it's probably better not to ask or be answered.
KGH
Post by: chevron on April 03, 2020, 12:38:29 PM
Post by: israshot on April 05, 2020, 08:11:41 AM
The Ohel in Queens for the 11th of Nissan.
(https://i.imgur.com/nuAU0dB.jpg)
Post by: AsherO on April 05, 2020, 09:21:07 AM
The Ohel in Queens for the 11th of Nissan.
(https://i.imgur.com/nuAU0dB.jpg)
Hoping too many people dont go. Its a hard choice to make but if were cancelling minyanim for this reason then we can cancel visiting kivrei tzaddikim en masse on special days.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 05, 2020, 09:35:33 AM
Hoping too many people dont go. Its a hard choice to make but if were cancelling minyanim for this reason then we can cancel visiting kivrei tzaddikim en masse on special days.
No matter how many lines they paint, I don't see it being possible to ensure no one touches any surfaces and maintains social distancing. No one should be going.
Post by: israshot on April 05, 2020, 09:38:10 AM
No matter how many lines they paint, I don't see it being possible to ensure no one touches any surfaces and maintains social distancing. No one should be going.Interesting that collive and crownheightsinfo deleted the post about Ohel guidelines. I see already from my window ppl going with babies to the ohel...
Post by: momo on April 05, 2020, 10:01:07 AM
Interesting that collive and crownheightsinfo deleted the post about Ohel guidelines. I see already from my window ppl going with babies to the ohel...This is extremely important! Huge kiddush hashem🤬
Post by: ari3 on April 05, 2020, 02:47:58 PM
When will shuls start to reopen?
What will it take for them to reopen (i. e. I assume things won't reopen until the govt stay at home orders are lifted)?
In what form will they reopen (limited with distancing? full throttle?)
These questions are premature but hope springs eternal.
Post by: chevron on April 05, 2020, 03:01:50 PM
What do people here think
When will shuls start to reopen?
What will it take for them to reopen (i. e. I assume things won't reopen until the govt stat at home orders are lifted)?
In what form will they reopen (limited with distancing? full throttle?)
These questions are premature but hope springs eternal.
I think possibly in 1 month and only people under 60. No kids.
We will see a very different davening, no one kissing the Torah.
I wonder if we will even have people on sides of bima during kriah
It's possible that everybody will be required to cover their face
Post by: chief_mag on April 05, 2020, 03:22:33 PM
We will see a very different davening, no one kissing the Torah.
I wonder if we will even have people on sides of bima during kriah
No more Baal koreh. Everyone lains their own Aliya like back by in the day. :)
Post by: CountValentine on April 05, 2020, 03:34:14 PM
What do people here thinkWay to early to even think about that. What if those infected are not immune for any period of time? What if a second strain pops up? How about both of those and a second more deadly wave hits?
When will shuls start to reopen?
Plan on them remaining closed for the rest of the year. If they open before that it will be a pleasant surprise.
Post by: yaakov35 on April 05, 2020, 03:47:03 PM
Plan on them remaining closed for the rest of the year. If they open before that it will be a pleasant surprise.
LOL
Post by: yesitsme on April 05, 2020, 03:49:09 PM
בכל דרכיך דעהו והוא יישר ארחתיך
I don't even feel like i'm doing it בדיעבד
Post by: lubaby on April 05, 2020, 03:55:10 PM
LOLThis is not a joke.
Stay at home. Enjoy being safe. Save lives.
Post by: farmbochur on April 05, 2020, 04:01:13 PM
What do people here thinkhttps://www.aei.org/research-products/report/national-coronavirus-response-a-road-map-to-reopening/
When will shuls start to reopen?
What will it take for them to reopen (i. e. I assume things won't reopen until the govt stat at home orders are lifted)?
In what form will they reopen (limited with distancing? full throttle?)
These questions are premature but hope springs eternal.
Post by: yitzgar on April 05, 2020, 04:16:40 PM
I'm living my life as usual with zero change,Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't want to be able to go back to shul when you can. Same way we want Moshiach and Bais Hamikdash.
בכל דרכיך דעהו והוא יישר ארחתיך
I don't even feel like i'm doing it בדיעבד
Post by: EliJelly on April 05, 2020, 04:43:10 PM
I'm living my life as usual with zero change,How about the closure of schools and Yeshivos and the reduction in Torah as a result??
בכל דרכיך דעהו והוא יישר ארחתיך
I don't even feel like i'm doing it בדיעבד
IDK, I grew up hearing from my Holocaust surviving grandfathers how in agony they were not having the ability to eat matzo or do the rest of the mitzvos.
Post by: mochjas on April 05, 2020, 06:10:44 PM
How about the closure of schools and Yeshivos and the reduction in Torah as a result??this is a different situation stop comparing it
IDK, I grew up hearing from my Holocaust surviving grandfathers how in agony they were not having the ability to eat matzo or do the rest of the mitzvos.
Post by: YitzyS on April 05, 2020, 06:50:34 PM
What do people here think
When will shuls start to reopen?
What will it take for them to reopen (i. e. I assume things won't reopen until the govt stay at home orders are lifted)?
In what form will they reopen (limited with distancing? full throttle?)
These questions are premature but hope springs eternal.
I'm living my life as usual with zero change,Guys, you have to stop. That writing format of putting a few words on a line with spaces in between the lines is copyrighted by @chevron.
בכל דרכיך דעהו והוא יישר ארחתיך
I don't even feel like i'm doing it בדיעבד
Post by: AsherO on April 05, 2020, 06:56:19 PM
Guys, you have to stop. That writing format of putting a few words on a line with spaces in between the lines is copyrighted by @chevron.
Its almost Sefira time and RL the magaifa is already here, lets work towards נהגו כבוד זה לזה so that we can immediately experience פסקו מלמות
Post by: chevron on April 05, 2020, 07:11:57 PM
You can text me at 4am if you need access to the world's top ENT surgeons, eye surgeons, neurosurgeon etc
If you would know the pain that I go to on behalf of others, you would see why I tear down the walls.
For my self... Eh I'm just a drunk.. but man it's real bad what some people go through.
Post by: YitzyS on April 05, 2020, 10:56:22 PM
Its almost Sefira time and RL the magaifa is already here, lets work towards נהגו כבוד זה לזה so that we can immediately experience פסקו מלמותI meant no disrespect. I was trying to make a light observation. As I've mentioned previously, this line format is typical of Conservative Charlie Kirk on Twitter. https://twitter.com/charliekirk11
Post by: chevron on April 06, 2020, 12:07:58 AM
I meant no disrespect. I was trying to make a light observation. As I've mentioned previously, this line format is typical of Conservative Charlie Kirk on Twitter. https://twitter.com/charliekirk11
I write the way I do because I like to keep to narrative open.
All to often, people's writing resembles a telegram =stop=
I don't like the conversation to be bunched up. I like to leave it open with space, room for introspection and elucidation.
Post by: neveryou on April 06, 2020, 12:56:18 AM
I see how some people are really listening to the Rabanim about no minyanim, closing the shul....
Do these same people listen to the Rabanim with the same zealoutness when it comes to other things?
Post by: miles lover on April 06, 2020, 12:57:44 AM
Just wonderingJust wondering if your bored
I see how some people are really listening to the Rabanim about no minyanim, closing the shul....
Do these same people listen to the Rabanim with the same zealoutness when it comes to other things?
Post by: avromie7 on April 06, 2020, 01:12:48 AM
Just wonderingAre you saying people shouldnt listen to rabbanim?
I see how some people are really listening to the Rabanim about no minyanim, closing the shul....
Do these same people listen to the Rabanim with the same zealoutness when it comes to other things?
Post by: yuneeq on April 06, 2020, 01:39:41 AM
Are you saying people shouldnt listen to rabbanim?
No hes saying that if sometimes you talk in shul, you should be fine with murdering people.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 06, 2020, 01:50:22 AM
Just wondering
I see how some people are really listening to the Rabanim about no minyanim, closing the shul....
Do these same people listen to the Rabanim with the same zealoutness when it comes to other things?
Absolutely. We're all about zealoutness. The thing I'm most zealout about is bed time. Did your parents know you were still up?
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on April 07, 2020, 11:21:34 PM
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
Post by: mme on April 07, 2020, 11:23:33 PM
Just out of curiosity, globally, where are there still minyanim?and in meoras hamachpaila
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
Post by: SamCan on April 07, 2020, 11:24:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, globally, where are there still minyanim?
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
Probably in some basements and backyards all over like by the inquisition.
Post by: zh cohen on April 08, 2020, 12:07:41 AM
Just out of curiosity, globally, where are there still minyanim?
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
An old age home in SA
Corona hotels in Eretz Yisroel
Post by: yaakov35 on April 08, 2020, 12:07:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, globally, where are there still minyanim?Lol, all over the tri state area. Lakewood, Brooklyn,monsey the list goes on and on
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
Post by: ari3 on April 08, 2020, 01:35:49 AM
Just out of curiosity, globally, where are there still minyanim?There are some porch minyonim in NY and Lakewood as well. You just need 10 people living in close proximity and someone with a loud voice.
Ive heard they have in Israel from porches and at army bases, plus three daily ones at the Kosel.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 08, 2020, 02:05:48 AM
There are some porch minyonim in NY and Lakewood as well. You just need 10 people living in close proximity and someone with a loud voice.Not so simple. According to the Aruch HaShulchan (which Rav Wosner Also held) 10 men on 10 different porches cannot be metzaref as a minyan.
Even according to the shita of the the Mishna Berura, Rav Moshe Shterbuch says that the shaliach tzibbur needs to be able to see nine other mispalelim when standing to mizrach...
Post by: good sam on April 08, 2020, 02:31:18 AM
the shaliach tzibbur needs to be able to see nine other mispalelim when standing to mizrach...Say what now
Post by: ExGingi on April 11, 2020, 10:22:44 PM
Even according to the shita of the the Mishna Berura, Rav Moshe Shterbuch says that the shaliach tzibbur needs to be able to see nine other mispalelim when standing to mizrach...Can't really understand that. But in any event our shliach tzibbur was west of most of the minyan so I'm sure he could see most.
Post by: Shkop on April 12, 2020, 11:12:42 PM
Just wonderingThe answer should be obvious. We are discussing a case of Pikuach Nefesh. Yes, that calls for special zealousness.
I see how some people are really listening to the Rabanim about no minyanim, closing the shul....
Do these same people listen to the Rabanim with the same zealoutness when it comes to other things?
But you need to use your brains. If a guy would miss a minyan for something non-essential (e.g. travel for pleasure) than his zealousness is meaningless.
If a guy is zealous about making a minyan, against rabanim, but can't get up in time for netz (which is better than tzibur) than he isn't legit.
But B"H thousands of Jews who are serious about davening bzibur are davening at home due to the situation.
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:15:41 PM
The answer should be obvious. We are discussing a case of Pikuach Nefesh. Yes, that calls for special zealousness.Oh the minyan behind my house didn't even make zman tefila on Yom tov.
But you need to use your brains. If a guy would miss a minyan for something non-essential (e.g. travel for pleasure) than his zealousness is meaningless.
If a guy is zealous about making a minyan, against rabanim, but can't get up in time for netz (which is better than tzibur) than he isn't legit.
But B"H thousands of Jews who are serious about davening bzibur are davening at home due to the situation.
Post by: Shkop on April 12, 2020, 11:16:19 PM
Oh the minyan behind my house didn't even make zman tefila on Yom tov.Unreal
Post by: yitzgar on April 12, 2020, 11:16:25 PM
Oh the minyan behind my house didn't even make zman tefila on Yom tov.Alol!
Post by: yakov116 on April 12, 2020, 11:16:41 PM
Oh the minyan behind my house made their own zman tefila on Yom tov.FTFY :)
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:17:42 PM
UnrealYup. Sad.
Post by: yungermanchik on April 12, 2020, 11:24:16 PM
Oh the minyan behind my house didn't even make zman tefila on Yom tov.For people like these, davening was always a cultural thing, G-d never had anything to do with it.
Kinda like the people who have chometzdike matzah-balls on the seder night because the seders got to have matzah-balls.
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:26:02 PM
For people like these, davening was always a cultural thing, G-d never had anything to do with it.There was one person who I was surprised that his family was there.
Kinda like the people who have chometzdike matzah-balls on the seder night because the seders got to have matzah-balls.
Post by: yakov116 on April 12, 2020, 11:42:15 PM
For people like these, davening was always a cultural thing, G-d never had anything to do with it.
Kinda like the people who have chometzdike matzah-balls on the seder night because the seders got to have matzah-balls.
It's called I don't want to babysit
Post by: SamCan on April 12, 2020, 11:45:37 PM
1) the smart-alek type that think its not dangerous and no one knows what they are talking about.
2) the people that feel this is the only way they are Jewish.
3) the people that need to socialize.
4) the people that dont care too much about others.
Its like we have our own ארבעה בנים.
Post by: RewardsAddict on April 12, 2020, 11:47:49 PM
That is a big problem. Many people are going out of their minds....
3) the people that need to socialize.
Post by: EliJelly on April 12, 2020, 11:49:25 PM
Oh the minyan behind my house didn't even make zman tefila on Yom tov.Was nusach sfard or ashkenaz? :)
Post by: chevron on April 12, 2020, 11:57:17 PM
Crazy
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:58:01 PM
Overalll there are I think four types of people by these minyanimI only see one of them in that list.
1) the smart-alek type that think its not dangerous and no one knows what they are talking about.
2) the people that feel this is the only way they are Jewish.
3) the people that need to socialize.
4) the people that dont care too much about others.
Its like we have our own ארבעה בנים.
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:59:01 PM
Was nusach sfard or ashkenaz? :)Shhhh
Post by: yaakov35 on April 13, 2020, 12:01:37 AM
Look at the beginning of this post when I started on March 6th and most people did not implement anything.Crazy that you think posting here would have had that outcome.
Crazy
Post by: yelped on April 13, 2020, 12:08:52 AM
Crazy that you think posting here would have had that outcome.:o
I could tell you that @yuneeq, @chevron, and others saved a lot of people through posting here.
Post by: Dan on April 13, 2020, 12:11:21 AM
:oYup, I lobbied in CLE because of them.
I could tell you that @yuneeq, @chevron, and others saved a lot of people through posting here.
Post by: yelped on April 13, 2020, 12:16:39 AM
Yup, I lobbied in CLE because of them.Yup. And many lobbied to their own families, neighbors, and Rabbanim.
Post by: Shkop on April 13, 2020, 12:20:13 AM
Overalll there are I think four types of people by these minyanimLove it. I bet most of these types during regular times will miss minyan for non-essential needs (e.g. travel for pleasure)
1) the smart-alek type that think its not dangerous and no one knows what they are talking about.
2) the people that feel this is the only way they are Jewish.
3) the people that need to socialize.
4) the people that dont care too much about others.
Its like we have our own ארבעה בנים.
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2020, 12:21:05 AM
:o
I could tell you that @yuneeq, @chevron, and others saved a lot of people through posting here.
+1
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 12:29:02 AM
@CountValentine I believe that's from Chicago.
Early intervention and constant hand washing making it a force of habit is the key.
I feel like these days I wash my hands as much, less sanitizer, more gloves but rarely touch face.
You got to be practical 65% of Americans did not wash their hands after going into the bathroom before this pandemic started.
I'm not sure what anybody in the right mind would use a gas pump. Even gas stations offered gloves 2 years ago saying how hundreds a day touch the pump.
I'm happy I could raise an early cry. Im not hysterical by nature but I saw that we needed to stop!
Do you know how much tzaar this is? Accross from my parents, one rabbi lost his father, down the block, another Rabbi lost his father and mother.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 13, 2020, 12:42:37 AM
Crazy that you think posting here would have had that outcome.
Couldn't be more wrong. I was educated by @yuneeq and in turn many people I spoke to influenced others. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that lives were saved from this forum
Post by: yelped on April 13, 2020, 12:49:20 AM
Love it. I bet most of these types during regular times will miss minyan for non-essential needs (e.g. travel for pleasure)Could you stop with the missing minyan thing? We all know you wouldn't go anywhere where there isn't minyan three times a day and you wouldn't take any flight that makes you miss a Minyan.
Post by: good sam on April 13, 2020, 12:51:44 AM
Couldn't be more wrong. I was educated by @yuneeq and in turn many people I spoke to influenced others. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that lives were saved from this forumNo doubt about it. I think we all had a period of time when we knew things were getting serious but hadn't yet internalized it enough to change our actions. Yuneeq and Chevron definitely helped speed up the process for me. I was one of the most vocal advocates to shut down our shul and stopped sending my kids to school five days before they closed.
(p.s. my family has not had the virus so far as I know)
Post by: Dan on April 13, 2020, 12:59:40 AM
Could you stop with the missing minyan thing? We all know you wouldn't go anywhere where there isn't minyan three times a day and you wouldn't take any flight that makes you miss a Minyan.There might still be someone that hasn't seen his last 3 posts about it ::)
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2020, 01:06:59 AM
Couldn't be more wrong. I was educated by @yuneeq and in turn many people I spoke to influenced others. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that lives were saved from this forumBecause of @yuneeq I personally influenced the owner of a very large school in Lakewood to shut down 2 full days before the whole of Lakewood followed suit despite very heavy pushback from his staff. There are currently two teachers from the school battling corona, one on a ventilator and one at home, but each of those is a Rav and probably contracted it in that position.
Other than that, the school has largely been spared what most schools in Lakewood are going through as far as staff with corona. Im not saying its everything but the difference between being closed Monday or Wednesday after Purim probably played the role in much more than a handful of deaths in Lakewood thus far.
Of course, on a family level, I have kept my entire family including my semi-elderly in-laws and high-risk parent on their toes a lot earlier and a lot more serious than they would have been if they would have stuck around waiting for Lakewood to wake up.
Its not an exaggeration at all. This forum DID save lives. BH! Thanks @yuneeq for keeping us on our toes!
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2020, 01:09:16 AM
There might still be someone that hasn't seen his last 3 posts about it ::)It just looks like he has some type of auto-respond feature on this forum that the rest of us dont have access to >:(
(e.g. non essential travel)
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 01:10:45 AM
I don't want to know what he went through in deciding to close the shul.
I can tell you that wasn't something I brought up. But from already mid to late February the virus was discussed between myself and the Rabbi and others.
I think we took basically a very aggressive approach early on. From hand sanitizer pumps installation March 3.
We had protocols to wipe down surfaces already then. We installed high level ac filters that would help the air filtering of anything
But at Shabbat after Purim with BH no confirmed cases even, after Shabbat, the Rabbi decided the risk was too big
At some point you need to say, look we are trying to do xx and yy and zz but we need to be practical, If we need to do x and y and z just to avoid this mageifa, we are asking for trouble.
That's when the shul was closed.
I contribute even more know. We don't have minyanim but we operate as a community.
I was there when the community started 27 years ago. If you think I just wash my hands on the whole affair, no way.
I'm not Yona, I'm not going to cry better I should be dead than alive.
Of course this hurts me, I spent 10 years of my life to see this shul be built.
I pass it now as I did before it was finished and pray that we should merit praying In it soon.
Post by: Yehudaa on April 13, 2020, 01:17:42 AM
Couldn't be more wrong. I was educated by @yuneeq and in turn many people I spoke to influenced others. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that lives were saved from this forum
+1. I personally made changes to the way I was doing things as a result of @yuneeq's posts here.
Post by: SamCan on April 13, 2020, 01:19:59 AM
My Rav gives 👍 to your comments.
I don't want to know what he went through in deciding to close the shul.
I can tell you that wasn't something I brought up. But from already mid to late February the virus was discussed between myself and the Rabbi and others.
I think we took basically a very aggressive approach early on. From hand sanitizer pumps installation March 3.
We had protocols to wipe down surfaces already then. We installed high level ac filters that would help the air filtering of anything
But at Shabbat after Purim with BH no confirmed cases even, after Shabbat, the Rabbi decided the risk was too big
At some point you need to say, look we are trying to do xx and yy and zz but we need to be practical, If we need to do x and y and z just to avoid this mageifa, we are asking for trouble.
That's when the shul was closed.
I contribute even more know. We don't have minyanim but we operate as a community.
I was there when the community started 27 years ago. If you think I just wash my hands on the whole affair, no way.
I'm not Yona, I'm not going to cry better I should be dead than alive.
Of course this hurts me, I spent 10 years of my life to see this shul be built.
I pass it now as I did before it was finished and pray that we should merit praying In it soon.
What's going on, is a test of each communities strength.
Post by: Dan on April 13, 2020, 01:22:04 AM
Diverse thought, even when you need to filter out the absurd, is worth hearing. Especially when organized into threads.
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2020, 01:24:37 AM
This thread shows the advantage of a forum over a WhatsApp group.FTFY
Diverse thought, after digging and finding the normal, is worth hearing. Especially when organized into threads.
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 01:27:55 AM
Because of @yuneeq I personally influenced the owner of a very large school in Lakewood to shut down 2 full days before the whole of Lakewood followed suit despite very heavy pushback from his staff. There are currently two teachers from the school battling corona, one on a ventilator and one at home, but each of those is a Rav and probably contracted it in that position.
Other than that, the school has largely been spared what most schools in Lakewood are going through as far as staff with corona. Im not saying its everything but the difference between being closed Monday or Wednesday after Purim probably played the role in much more than a handful of deaths in Lakewood thus far.
Of course, on a family level, I have kept my entire family including my semi-elderly in-laws and high-risk parent on their toes a lot earlier and a lot more serious than they would have been if they would have stuck around waiting for Lakewood to wake up.
Its not an exaggeration at all. This forum DID save lives. BH! Thanks @yuneeq for keeping us on our toes!
Agreed... My mother is keh 60 . She was at first beffudled and offended
I was like mom, look, you're 60, my father is 62. (back in the beginning they were saying 65)
But my grandmother lives with them and 90+. I went from rational pleading to morbididity.
I basically said once, fine.. either allow me to order everything online or tell me when bubby levaya is.
I'm not proud. I have to respect my parents... But I couldn't allow that to happen.
It's funny too, like the instacart order I made from Costco, my mother says "can You add two cases of water" So I checked and I was able to add them and then the next day we get two orders delivered basically the exact same order except one had water and one did not from two different drivers ;)
My mom was like oh well we have lots of apples and bananas.
I know I need to ask my parents for mechila and I will. But I don't regret what I did.
I keep saying, it's a once in a hundred years pandemic. All you need to do is be safe for a couple of months if even most likely just a couple weeks...
Hashem said to Adam, wait a couple of hours .. you know what happened in the end?!
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 01:34:44 AM
This thread shows the advantage of a forum over a WhatsApp group.
Diverse thought, even when you need to filter out the absurd, is worth hearing. Especially when organized into threads.
But I'm the first to acknowledge that I run my mouth endlessly ;)
My close friend Rabbi Dany Cohen in Chevron says to me "be a Baruch omer v'oseh," and I said once " I think some people feel they are boruch gozer umekayem"
I never had any answers. I can tell you that I worry..
I'm worried now that people are going to feel that everything is over..a false sense of security.
I grew up to Holocaust survivors and books. The ones that survived were the ones constantly worried and willing to fight for freedom.
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2020, 01:54:13 AM
This thread shows the advantage of a forum over a WhatsApp group.
Diverse thought, even when you need to filter out the absurd, is worth hearing. Especially when organized into threads.
Why not both? ;D
Like many things 2 months ago, I was embarrassed to open a coronavirus chat, but there were definitely advantages in the back and forth conversations, and even when it included voice notes :o
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 02:00:16 AM
Why not both? ;D
Like many things 2 months ago, I was embarrassed to open a coronavirus chat, but there were definitely advantages in the back and forth conversations, and even when it included voice notes :o
I'll the first to admit that the js thread about the virus mildly interested me till mid February.
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2020, 02:06:37 AM
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2020, 02:08:11 AM
Post by: chevron on April 13, 2020, 02:17:25 AM
Many of you that have said my posts here have made an impact, I want to say thank you for expressing this, theres a lot satisfaction, my obsession with the impending coronavirus completely took over my life for a while so Im glad its actually making a difference. But even more so, if I realized beforehand how much 1 person can make an impact, I would have done so much more...Im not a doomsday type of guy like @chevron and I feel we have an extremely different background but Im glad we did whatever we did.
Maybe because we are not similar or that our differing messages being at the same thing is what affects others
Post by: CountValentine on April 13, 2020, 06:32:26 AM
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2020, 09:01:45 AM
If those who acted early saved lives is the opposite also true (not talking about our government before anyone goes there)?
If by the opposite you mean - those who acted later than most others, yes. Hard to blame the people in between despite what they ultimately caused.
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2020, 09:23:08 AM
Regarding @CountValentine's question, the answer is yes, to a certain degree. "With great power comes great responsibility." Those who wield influence and power need to be cognizant of the ramifications of their words and actions. That means taking the time to properly research a topic before speaking authoritatively on it. By the same token, people need to take individual responsibility in vetting who they respect and who they get their information from. They need to verify information they hear and not just accept things blindly.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:16:15 AM
Nebech, acc to DDF everyone here should be shot cv.
So lets hear. Is this allowed according to DDF? And If so is there a difference between this and a well maintained porch minyan?
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2020, 11:17:36 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/04/12/birchas-kohanim-kosel/
Nebech, acc to DDF everyone here should be shot cv.
So lets hear. Is this allowed according to DDF? And If so is there a difference between this and a well maintained porch minyan?
First of all, I don't think you'll find a single person on DDF with a problem with this.
Second, go away. Enough already.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:21:14 AM
Post by: Vesko on April 13, 2020, 11:22:08 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/04/12/birchas-kohanim-kosel/
Nebech, acc to DDF everyone here should be shot cv.
So lets hear. Is this allowed according to DDF? And If so is there a difference between this and a well maintained porch minyan?
Instead of asking DDF, maybe you should ask your Rav.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 13, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
Lets hear, whats the difference?What's the difference between a fish?
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2020, 11:25:32 AM
Lets hear, whats the difference?
A) There's a Rov who is putting his name and face to this, and is personally inspecting and enforcing the criteria he set.
B) There are other minyanim no one has a problem with. One in a quarantined old age home in South Africa, on one base by Nachal Chareidi, a few in hotels of corona-positive people in Israel, and others like those.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:26:07 AM
Instead of asking DDF, maybe you should ask your Rav.I did!!!!! And everyone here has a problem with the answer. Because they get their info only from blogs.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:27:06 AM
A) There's a Rov who is putting his name and face to this, and is personally inspecting and enforcing the criteria he set.Ok, so if we make those rules for minyan here, you are ok with it?
B) There are other minyanim no one has a problem with. One in a quarantined old age home in South Africa, on one base by Nachal Chareidi, a few in hotels of corona-positive people in Israel, and others like those.
Post by: Yehudaa on April 13, 2020, 11:28:39 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/04/12/birchas-kohanim-kosel/
Nebech, acc to DDF everyone here should be shot cv.
So lets hear. Is this allowed according to DDF? And If so is there a difference between this and a well maintained porch minyan?
Do you really need our help in figuring out what the difference is, or are you just trying to stir the pot and create machlokes?
Post by: Vesko on April 13, 2020, 11:28:45 AM
I did!!!!! And everyone here has a problem with the answer. Because they get their info only from blogs.
So you're listening to your Rav, and they are listening to their Rav. שלום על ישראל.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:33:00 AM
So you're listening to your Rav, and they are listening to their Rav. שלום על ישראל.I wish everyone here agreed with that statement.
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:37:35 AM
Do you really need our help in figuring out what the difference is, or are you just trying to stir the pot and create machlokes?I personally dont think there is a difference, in a place where it is done properly.however The way people were talking yesterday, that minyan is against everything the torah in every which way. I would like to understand why they would think this is different. Unless a minyan by the Kosel is important to them, but 10 hidden saying yehei shmei raba from their porches is not important and is obviously assur
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2020, 11:44:43 AM
I did!!!!! And everyone here has a problem with the answer. Because they get their info only from blogs.What in the world its your source that anyone here gets info only from blogs!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Now you are being motzi shem ra too?
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2020, 11:45:26 AM
I wish everyone here agreed with that statement.You don't believe it yourself. You are acting like a piece of garbage.
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2020, 11:47:53 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/04/12/birchas-kohanim-kosel/I have seen porch minyanim and not one has kept to being well maintained. Some which were originally sanctioned by a Rov were then spurred by that same Rov.
Nebech, acc to DDF everyone here should be shot cv.
So lets hear. Is this allowed according to DDF? And If so is there a difference between this and a well maintained porch minyan?
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:51:56 AM
I have seen porch minyanim and not one has kept to being well maintained. Some which were originally sanctioned by a Rov were then spurred by that same Rov.Not disagreeing with that
Post by: Yef on April 13, 2020, 11:52:18 AM
You don't believe it yourself. You are acting like a piece of garbage.Control yourself
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 13, 2020, 11:58:59 AM
Post by: Chapshnell on April 13, 2020, 12:00:58 PM
Guys, please don't respond to someone who thinks congregating is fine as social distancing will only lessen the amount of souls we lose rather than stop all death.
95% of the people understand the severity of the situation & take proper precautions, however there will always be the 5% or so that are not mentally well, in every aspect of life/decision making.
Its the nature of humans
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2020, 12:04:58 PM
Control yourselfWhen in one post you say that everyone here is getting only from blogs then say that you wish everyone would listen to rabbonim this IS controlling myself. Without control it would have been MUCH stronger.
Post by: EliJelly on April 13, 2020, 01:24:53 PM
Post by: ExGingi on April 13, 2020, 10:13:24 PM
However, he did say that name calling is wrong. He ended by saying that if someone believes that he can make a minyan in a totally safe manner he should know that it is עליו ועל צווארו.
Post by: CountValentine on April 13, 2020, 10:15:51 PM
However, he did say that name calling is wrong. He ended by saying that if someone believes that he can make a minyan in a totally safe manner he should know that it is עליו ועל צווארו.Don't leave me hanging. It is?
Post by: ExGingi on April 13, 2020, 10:17:45 PM
Don't leave me hanging. It is?I thought you have a thread for that.
Though the pun is appropriate.
עליו ועל צווארו = it is his own risk and responsibility. (Lit. It lies on him and on his neck).
Post by: Luvisrael on April 13, 2020, 11:38:09 PM
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2020, 11:44:28 PM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/breaking-lakewood-poskim-ban-all-minyanim-including-on-porches-visits-within-lakewood-also-banned.htmlThis is powerful but everyone is still going to say doesnt apply to ME.. cant win
Post by: Chapshnell on April 13, 2020, 11:49:03 PM
I think people are starting to believe that the worst has passed & everyone in BP has been exposed to it by now. My opinion
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 12:09:36 AM
Boro Park shuls are loaded with minyanim. Not all of course but plenty!They rely on the attached....no comment
I think people are starting to believe that the worst has passed & everyone in BP has been exposed to it by now. My opinion
Post by: yossig on April 14, 2020, 12:10:28 AM
These threads popping up daily bashing everyone that doesnt follow your Rov, or your way of thought, are just ugly looking for this forum.
Everyone should please consult with there own LR and follow as hes told.
Please keep your posts clean and remember that דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים, and hopefully with some extra אהבת חינם well get over this horrible מגיפה fast.
Post by: avromie7 on April 14, 2020, 12:16:44 AM
They rely on the attached....no commentwith or without a rav's approval?
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 12:18:27 AM
This is powerful but everyone is still going to say doesnt apply to ME.. cant winYou have it wrong. They say "ich veis besser"
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 12:18:55 AM
They rely on the attached....no commentAll you need is a keyboard and a printer...
There's no signature so it's worthless.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 12:19:55 AM
guys, EVERY point can be made without name calling, degrading, or ניבול פה.Read the last paragraph of the Hebrew version on the Lakewood scoop.
These threads popping up daily bashing everyone that doesnt follow your Rov, or your way of thought, are just ugly looking for this forum.
Everyone should please consult with there own LR and follow as hes told.
Please keep your posts clean and remember that דברי חכמים בנחת נשמעים, and hopefully with some extra אהבת חינם well get over this horrible מגיפה fast.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 12:20:22 AM
All you need is a keyboard and a printer...Except for the people who know better anyhow.
There's no signature so it's worthless.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 12:21:57 AM
All you need is a keyboard and a printer...Did you read it? Its a psak from X years ago related to the only answer to a mageifah. X being I dont know how many years ago R' Chaim Palagi lived or for that matter who that is.
There's no signature so it's worthless.
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 12:25:24 AM
Did you read it? Its a psak from X years ago related to the only answer to a mageifah. X being I dont know how many years ago R' Chaim Palagi lived or for that matter who that is.Sure, then there's that Gmara etc etc. The question is not about bringing sources but rather from a rav that give a psak for the current situation.
Post by: myi on April 14, 2020, 12:28:04 AM
Post by: EliJelly on April 14, 2020, 12:32:25 AM
Post by: yesitsme on April 14, 2020, 12:33:40 AM
Post by: yossig on April 14, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
Read the last paragraph of the Hebrew version on the Lakewood scoop.read
Whats your point?
Post by: yitzgar on April 14, 2020, 12:40:42 AM
Are these the leading Rabbonim in Lakewood? Anything from the ראשי ישיבה?Yes. When these Rabbonim put out a statement like this, a statement from the Roshei Yeshiva would be basically superfluous, as they are the Yeshiva poskim.
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 12:50:52 AM
Did you read it? Its a psak from X years ago related to the only answer to a mageifah. X being I dont know how many years ago R' Chaim Palagi lived or for that matter who that is.
Haim Palachi was a Jewish-Turkish chief rabbi of Smyrna and author in Ladino and Hebrew. His titles included Hakham Bashi and Gaon. He is likely a descendant of Samuel Pallache of 16th-century Fez and early 17th-century merchant, diplomat and pirate. Wikipedia
Born: January 28, 1788, Smyrna
Died: February 10, 1868, Smyrna
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 12:54:24 AM
Post by: myi on April 14, 2020, 12:57:08 AM
Lakewood bans all minyanim includes porches etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/MgFXr02/IMG-20200414-WA0008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNH3tjf)In big for you>>
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 12:57:15 AM
If something from 150 years ago fits their narrative then that's what they're going to do.
Chayei olam v'chayei shaa means nothing to these clowns!
It boggles my mind in how they manipulate this.
Post by: yesitsme on April 14, 2020, 12:58:50 AM
This goes back to the original discussion in the original problem that everybody can custom here of what they want from Torah.its all propaganda
If something from 150 years ago fits their narrative then that's what they're going to do.
Chayei olam v'chayei shaa means nothing to these clowns!
It boggles my mind in how they manipulate this.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 12:59:58 AM
Haim Palachi was a Jewish-Turkish chief rabbi of Smyrna and author in Ladino and Hebrew. His titles included Hakham Bashi and Gaon. He is likely a descendant of Samuel Pallache of 16th-century Fez and early 17th-century merchant, diplomat and pirate. WikipediaOk so my 150 year old psak guesstimate wasnt that wrong. Lets start using the Rambams medical solutions as well. Oh we already are putting garlic in the ears and blowdrying our throats.
Born: January 28, 1788, Smyrna
Died: February 10, 1868, Smyrna
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 01:43:42 AM
Ok so my 150 year old psak guesstimate wasnt that wrong. Lets start using the Rambams medical solutions as well. Oh we already are putting garlic in the ears and blowdrying our throats.
Their logic can outwit facts.. I can't wrap my mind around it.
In bnai brak they followed an ancient minhag and had a wedding in the cemetery.
I read that at least one of them got sick covid19.
Post by: ari3 on April 14, 2020, 02:00:54 AM
its all propaganda
Ok so my 150 year old psak guesstimate wasnt that wrong. Lets start using the Rambams medical solutions as well. Oh we already are putting garlic in the ears and blowdrying our throats.
While you can disagree with the application of that psak to the current situation have some respect for the geonim of previous generations.
הזהרו בגחלתן שלא תכוה
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 10:19:05 AM
While you can disagree with the application of that psak to the current situation have some respect for the geonim of previous generations.
הזהרו בגחלתן שלא תכוה
The only people disrespectful and distorting the leaders of past generations are those that purposefully use words of the rabbi's to fit their perverted version of halacha
https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%92_%D7%99%D7%90
וְהַמְּגַלֶּה פָנִים בַּתּוֹרָה שֶׁלֹּא כַּהֲלָכָה, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ בְּיָדוֹ תּוֹרָה וּמַעֲשִׂים טוֹבִים, אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 10:19:22 AM
readבמקום חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד
Whats your point?
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 10:28:15 AM
While you can disagree with the application of that psak to the current situation have some respect for the geonim of previous generations.Where do you see disrespect for previous generations. The psak was not a psak for generations. It was Horoas sha'a. As was any practical application of medical advice. It is the perversion of piskei halacha from 150 years ago to fit the current situation that is disrespectful to them.
הזהרו בגחלתן שלא תכוה
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 10:37:09 AM
There was a pedophile arrested in Israel who justified his actions lehavdil .. said he didn't actually have sex with the boys so it wasn't mishkevey zachar.
Post by: CountValentine on April 14, 2020, 10:38:13 AM
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 14, 2020, 10:41:15 AM
Please stop. PC Friday is getting upset.Since Purim no one knows what day it is anymore.
Post by: CountValentine on April 14, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
Since Purim no one knows what day it is anymore.I hope no one retires then since they will never know what day it is. ;)
Post by: Dan on April 14, 2020, 10:42:43 AM
Since Purim no one knows what day it is anymore.
DDF is Yom Shekulo Erev Shabbos.
Post by: EliJelly on April 14, 2020, 10:45:49 AM
Please stop. PC Friday is getting upset.
Feel free to revive the Friday PC thread, no one keeps track on what day it is anyway.
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
It's interesting to denote how these piskey halacha were made.
Rama insists that with certain limited exceptions, no diseases are actually contagious, for Hashem is the Smiter and the Healer, and that is why we find no distinction in the laws of visiting the sick between contagious and noncontagious diseases.[8] Rav Azulai, too, insists that in times of plague, one must visit the sick and bury the dead. He agrues that arguing that as outbreaks of plague typically lasted several months, inattention to the victims will result in grievously unsanitary conditions. He explains that the level of risk involved is acceptable; that Hashem watches over fools; and that He does not place the world in intolerable situations. He recommends that one trust in Hashem and avoid sin (particularly gazing at the faces of women).[9] R Chaim Palagi, however, strongly disagrees, asserting that plague most definitely is contagious, as evinced by both empirical evidence as well as various comments of the Rishonim,[10] and that flight and avoidance are certainly the prudent course.[11] The Shulchan Gavoa also strongly rejects the position of Rama, declaring that the custom is that ordinary members of the public do not visit plague victims, and only special groups who are well compensated for doing so visit them.[12]
One would have to accept based on Rabbi palagi opinion of avoidance that minyan is forbidden.
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 10:50:06 AM
Since Purim no one knows what day it is anymore.
It's erev chag, I actually thought it was Friday.
Reminds me of tishrey, Shabbat - chag - Shabbat etc.
At some point I went to the bank thinking it was Friday, turns out it was Sunday .
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 11:20:57 AM
Are these the leading Rabbonim in Lakewood? Anything from the ראשי ישיבה?
Yes. When these Rabbonim put out a statement like this, a statement from the Roshei Yeshiva would be basically superfluous, as they are the Yeshiva poskim.Dear BMG Parents, Talmidim and Friends,
A Gut Moed,
I hope this email finds you and your family safe and well.
Attached please find critical updated Psakim from the 4 BMG Poskim about Minyanim, socialization, shopping, travel and more.
Note kindly that their definitive clear Psak bans all Minyanim including so called porch Minyanim.
Wishing you a safe Yomtov and Yeshuos for all of Klal Yisroel,
Rabbi Aaron Kotler
President and Chief Executive Officer
Beth Medrash Govoha
Post by: good sam on April 14, 2020, 11:25:03 AM
Dear BMG Parents, Talmidim and Friends,
A Gut Moed,
I hope this email finds you and your family safe and well.
Attached please find critical updated Psakim from the 4 BMG Poskim about Minyanim, socialization, shopping, travel and more.
Note kindly that their definitive clear Psak bans all Minyanim including so called porch Minyanim.
Wishing you a safe Yomtov and Yeshuos for all of Klal Yisroel,
Rabbi Aaron Kotler
President and Chief Executive Officer
Beth Medrash Govoha
People who start their email with the outdated and irrelevant "I hope this email finds you well."
(got one today, inspired this thread)
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 11:30:11 AM
This is an updated version
Post by: moish on April 14, 2020, 11:31:17 AM
Post by: chevron on April 14, 2020, 11:38:17 AM
Maybe I missed it, but whats the concern with porch minyanim?
💨
Post by: ExGingi on April 14, 2020, 11:45:01 AM
Maybe I missed it, but whats the concern with porch minyanim?Start with לא פלוג and לועג לרש.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 11:46:44 AM
Maybe I missed it, but whats the concern with porch minyanim?That old gag
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 11:51:34 AM
Please stop. PC Friday is getting upset.
(https://i.gyazo.com/3acdd00eb9a0d5f717751e2491670a3f.png)
Post by: yuneeq on April 14, 2020, 11:56:37 AM
This is powerful but everyone is still going to say doesnt apply to ME.. cant win
I know people that changed their plans because of it
Post by: Vesko on April 14, 2020, 12:28:30 PM
Maybe I missed it, but whats the concern with porch minyanim?
אסור משום איבה
I'm not sure if that means from goyim or other Jews.
Post by: Chapshnell on April 14, 2020, 12:31:09 PM
אסור משום איבה
I'm not sure if that means from goyim or other Jews.
do you want a pogrom? do you understand were in galus? Hisgarus b'umos isnt only the zionim. Can be in the USA too.
Post by: Luvisrael on April 14, 2020, 12:31:46 PM
do you want a pogrom? do you understand were in galus? Hisgarus b'umos isnt only the zionim. Can be in the USA too.relax. He was just trying to clarify
Post by: Chapshnell on April 14, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
relax. He was just trying to clarify
:D
Post by: ExGingi on April 14, 2020, 12:38:37 PM
relax. He was just trying to clarify
You're telling someone called Chapshnell to relax? ::)
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
אסור משום איבה
I'm not sure if that means from goyim or other Jews.
I should hope from Jews too.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 12:44:02 PM
Read the last paragraph of the Hebrew version on the Lakewood scoop.Hebrew version below. Highlights are mine.
(https://i.gyazo.com/8bff32fcea84e928f9cc97e7c6441706.png)
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 01:16:03 PM
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 01:21:52 PM
During Kinus Torah (over Zoom) Rabbi Braun of the Crown Heights Beis Din addressed the issue. He mentioned various arguments made, and said that the Beis Din unanimously decided to forbid all minyanim, indoors and outdoors, without mentioning any reasoning, so that no one could say that the reasoning isn't relevant to him. He did mention several arguments that can be made against making minyanim, but the bottom line is that (sofek) pikuach nefesh trumps everything and is a sufficient reason.
However, he did say that name calling is wrong. He ended by saying that if someone believes that he can make a minyan in a totally safe manner he should know that it is עליו ועל צווארו.
The audio (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEcA3K0qy0eORG1laXyR1s1IzKVhWj4N/view?usp=sharing)
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 01:22:47 PM
Listen to the audio of Rabbi Forscheimer: https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/new-audio-message-from-lakewood-posek-rabbi-yaakov-forscheimer.html
Cant get clearer than this
"May fall into the halachos of a rodeif"
WOW!!
Post by: Luvisrael on April 14, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
Post by: EliJelly on April 14, 2020, 01:33:37 PM
Can someone post the audio here of Rabbi ForshimerJust look one post above.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 01:33:53 PM
Can someone post the audio here of Rabbi ForshimerThe link is in my post above yours.
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 01:35:32 PM
Can someone post the audio here of Rabbi Forshimerhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1WObjD_u8eedm7Rcg26AWJfc6vG7cq9CB/view?usp=drivesdk
Post by: Luvisrael on April 14, 2020, 01:38:48 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WObjD_u8eedm7Rcg26AWJfc6vG7cq9CB/view?usp=drivesdkthanks
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 14, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
Post by: EliJelly on April 14, 2020, 01:48:48 PM
Beautiful initiative in Crown HeightsWhile you are at it, grab a mincha together ;)
Post by: Yard sale on April 14, 2020, 02:00:59 PM
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 02:04:36 PM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/lakewood-rov-regretfully-and-tearfully-rescinds-letter-in-light-of-new-psak.htmlGood.
Now are tefillos "miskabel" or "niskabel"?
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 02:11:27 PM
A Williamsburg shul is allowing the shul to stay open only asking not be more then 50 people no kids and keep a distance..
Edit: got a few private msg to remove this post.
I will let DDF community be the judge and leave this post.
Post by: ExGingi on April 14, 2020, 02:16:25 PM
Saw on someone status.
A Williamsburg shul is allowing the shul to stay open only asking not be more then 50 people no kids and keep a distance..
Well intentioned but misguided. I think the overriding factors of the guidance we are hearing and seeing in the last 24 hours from Lakewood and Crown Heights are:
1. Sofek Pikuach Nefesh.
2. לא פלוג.
and possibly 3. לועג לרש.
Post by: S209 on April 14, 2020, 02:35:52 PM
Saw on someone status.Are you sure this is current?
A Williamsburg shul is allowing the shul to stay open only asking not be more then 50 people no kids and keep a distance..
Edit: got a few private msg to remove this post.
I will let DDF community be the judge and leave this post.
Post by: Yard sale on April 14, 2020, 02:38:52 PM
Saw on someone status.
A Williamsburg shul is allowing the shul to stay open only asking not be more then 50 people no kids and keep a distance..
Edit: got a few private msg to remove this post.
I will let DDF community be the judge and leave this post.
This is almost certainly old. A couple weeks ago the guidance was 50 people. Unless you can verify that this is current is is completely irresponsible to post.
Post by: S209 on April 14, 2020, 02:51:04 PM
This is almost certainly old. A couple weeks ago the guidance was 50 people. Unless you can verify that this is current is is completely irresponsible to post.Thats what I suspect too. If its not true please provide proof that its current.
I dont want to believe this is happening, and Im not convinced.
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 02:58:41 PM
Are you sure this is current?
[/quote]
This is almost certainly old. A couple weeks ago the guidance was 50 people. Unless you can verify that this is current is is completely irresponsible to post.
Thats what I suspect too. If its not true please provide proof that its current.
I dont want to believe this is happening, and Im not convinced.
Confirmed 100% picture was taken today!
Post by: S209 on April 14, 2020, 03:01:58 PM
Are you sure this is current?Can you prove it? How do you know?
Confirmed 100% picture was taken today!
Post by: yungermanchik on April 14, 2020, 03:04:47 PM
Are you sure this is current?Even if the picture was taken today it doesn't prove that the rules are current. Many places that suddenly closed did not send anyone back to take down the old sign of rules.
Confirmed 100% picture was taken today!
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 03:06:30 PM
Can you prove it? How do you know?My word isn't enough 😜.
I confirmed with the original poster.
Alternatively we can ask a DDF member who lives in WB to check the shul... or you can take a trip and confirm for yourself. This is happening all over nothing to be shocked i know plenty of other shuls open in Brooklyn.
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 03:07:57 PM
Even if the picture was taken today it doesn't prove that the rules are current. Many places that suddenly closed did not send anyone back to take down the old sign of rules.You must be a great person for having Dan l'chaf zechus
Post by: ExGingi on April 14, 2020, 03:14:25 PM
The audio (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEcA3K0qy0eORG1laXyR1s1IzKVhWj4N/view?usp=sharing)
Video. Specific ruling starts at 36:12.
Post by: Luvisrael on April 14, 2020, 03:54:50 PM
Video. Specific ruling starts at 36:12.who are these people?
Post by: Dan on April 14, 2020, 04:49:38 PM
Video. Specific ruling starts at 36:12.Well said!
Post by: Dan on April 14, 2020, 04:51:00 PM
who are these people?Rabbi Braun is on the Crown Heights B"D.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 05:24:58 PM
Hebrew version below. Highlights are mine.Posted copies of this on the gate outside my house surrounding my yard with a request for people to not daven at the gate.
(https://i.gyazo.com/8bff32fcea84e928f9cc97e7c6441706.png)
Post by: Joel on April 14, 2020, 05:33:01 PM
Posted copies of this on the gate outside my house surrounding my yard with a request for people to not daven at the gate.Maybe we can get this trending... great 👍
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Posted copies of this on the gate outside my house surrounding my yard with a request for people to not daven at the gate.Intrestesting, your hanging up a sign with signitures with Lakewood rabonim in what looks like to be NYC.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 05:51:52 PM
Intrestesting, your hanging up a sign with signitures with Lakewood rabonim in what looks like to be NYC.And your point? Halacha is Halacha.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:04:46 PM
And your point? Halacha is Halacha.Every one should seek their own halachik guidance from their posek. Even in Lakewood their are some that differ in pesak.
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.
Why is it so hard for some to live with the fact that others will make decisions in life [even life threatening] that you don't necessarily agree with.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 06:06:40 PM
Every one should seek their own halachik guidance from their posek. Even in Lakewood their are some that differ in pesak.Most if not all of those in Lakewood have since retracted.
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.
Why is it so hard for some to live with the fact that others will make decisions in life [even life threatening] that you don't necessarily agree with.
Post by: EliJelly on April 14, 2020, 06:06:46 PM
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 06:06:47 PM
Every one should seek their own halachik guidance from their posek. Even in Lakewood their are some that differ in pesak.The guy had ppl in his front yard coming. He can at least have a say on his property...
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.
Why is it so hard for some to live with the fact that others will make decisions in life [even life threatening] that you don't necessarily agree with.
Post by: Chapshnell on April 14, 2020, 06:08:27 PM
Every one should seek their own halachik guidance from their posek. Even in Lakewood their are some that differ in pesak.
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.
Why is it so hard for some to live with the fact that others will make decisions in life [even life threatening] that you don't necessarily agree with.
Because when it comes to pekiach nefesh we need to err on the side of caution.
Im not going to change your mind & I am not trying to but we are allowed to scream & yell if peoples recklessness is potentially causing deaths. I dont care what any meikil might say. How can he be meikil on my blood?!
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:08:46 PM
He can still post on his gate whatever he wishes, definitely easier than sending people away.100%
The guy had ppl in his front yard coming. He can at least have a say on his property...It's not his property. In NYC anyone can walk on the sidewalk. That's where the signs are directed.
Post by: yochiek93 on April 14, 2020, 06:12:28 PM
It's not his property. In NYC anyone can walk on the sidewalk. That's where the signs are directed.people came into his yard which is gated that is definitely his property.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:14:34 PM
Because when it comes to pekiach nefesh we need to err on the side of caution.
Im not going to change your mind & I am not trying to but we are allowed to scream & yell if peoples recklessness is potentially causing deaths. I dont care what any meikil might say. How can he be meikil on my blood?!
If your staying home and keeping all social distancing then it's not "my blood".
Many times in life people make reckless decisions that can impact someone's life, think driving. I, usually dont see people taking it that seriously.
Post by: yochiek93 on April 14, 2020, 06:15:52 PM
If your staying home and keeping all social distancing then it's not "my blood".2 wrongs don't make a right
Many times in life people make reckless decisions that can impact someone's life, think driving. I, usually dont see people taking it that seriously.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:16:28 PM
people came into his yard which is gated that is definitely his property.Post a private property sign with a clear warning describing what Gezel is.
Post by: yochiek93 on April 14, 2020, 06:18:31 PM
Post a private property sign with a clear warning describing what Gezel is.does it really make a difference what the sign says if it will keep people out?
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 06:19:12 PM
Every one should seek their own halachik guidance from their posek. Even in Lakewood their are some that differ in pesak.Why is it so hard for people to understand those protesting against them and trying to save lives?
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.
Why is it so hard for some to live with the fact that others will make decisions in life [even life threatening] that you don't necessarily agree with.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 06:19:49 PM
Post a private property sign with a clear warning describing what Gezel is.Why is he not allowed to protest them risking lives?
Post by: israshot on April 14, 2020, 06:21:24 PM
It's not his property. In NYC anyone can walk on the sidewalk. That's where the signs are directed.Read, it's written black on white.
I'm ready to become an anti-semite too. I walk out my front door, I live in middle of the block, and a guy who lives across the avenue on the next block is davening in my front yard with a street minyan!!! They brought out a table for kriyas hatorah. I just cant anymore. I ask him to leave and he starts pacing back and forth on the sidewalk right in front of the house...which I of course dont own or control. Yesterday, one of these idiots was davening under a porch on someone elses property due to the rain, knowing that those people werent home for yom tov. Yes I am ready to go full blown anti semite.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:25:51 PM
Why is it so hard for people to understand those protesting against them and trying to save lives?
Why is he not allowed to protest them risking lives?
He may protest.
I totally understand his point of view, but just picture, videos of protesters you've seen and think to yourself what they have achieved. You can think of Neturei Karta or other extremist, in the eyes of those praying outside you are most likely looked upon in that same way. Remember, many of them either dont seek halachik guidance or do and have received a pesak to do so. Why do you think they will listen to you?
How about finding out who these people are and call them by phone and try having a civil discussion explaining your point of view and see if they will listen.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Read, it's written black on white.I think in general of someone enters your property you have a right to do something about it.
Seek halachik guidance how to handle it, maybe a lock on the gate?
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 06:28:13 PM
I never said it was an effective way of going about it.
He may protest.
I totally understand his point of view, but just picture, videos of protesters you've seen and think to yourself what they have achieved. You can think of Neturei Karta or other extremist, in the eyes of those praying outside you are most likely looked upon in that same way. Remember, many of them either dont seek halachik guidance or do and have received a pesak to do so. Why do you think they will listen to you?
How about finding out who these people are and call them by phone and try having a civil discussion explaining your point of view and see if they will listen.
Post by: KSMH on April 14, 2020, 06:30:51 PM
I never said it was an effective way of going about it.
So we are on the same page!! GYT.
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2020, 06:31:48 PM
So we are on the same page!! GYT.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 14, 2020, 06:59:46 PM
I have tried nicely, not so nicely and very not nicely. This is the last resort after this mornings incursions on my property. I am well aware of what I can do legally. To equate my actions to Neturei Karta is laughable...but what you think of me is none of my business anyway.
He may protest.
I totally understand his point of view, but just picture, videos of protesters you've seen and think to yourself what they have achieved. You can think of Neturei Karta or other extremist, in the eyes of those praying outside you are most likely looked upon in that same way. Remember, many of them either dont seek halachik guidance or do and have received a pesak to do so. Why do you think they will listen to you?
How about finding out who these people are and call them by phone and try having a civil discussion explaining your point of view and see if they will listen.
They are in the main chasidim of a Rebbe who has not davened with a minyan for 4 weeks already...confirmed. The schizophrenia of chasidim disregarding the directives of their own rebbe and trying to be more frum than him is astonishing. If their own rebbe has no sway over them I doubt I will. But at least this psak is now available to them for consideration. If it saves one life or even one person from getting sick it was worth it all.
A healthy Gut Yom Tov to all!
Post by: Abey on April 14, 2020, 07:07:45 PM
Post by: Dan on April 14, 2020, 07:09:25 PM
Just gonna drop this here... https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0To show what?
Liquor stores are also open.
Post by: Abey on April 14, 2020, 07:15:56 PM
To show what?adding context and the legal opinion to this discussion. Personal views of safety and gov regulations should not be conflated
Liquor stores are also open.
Post by: CountValentine on April 15, 2020, 05:16:12 PM
Imagine someone would force you to listen to their rabbi or church leader.Now there is a radical idea. Have one voice for a religion.
Post by: avromie7 on April 16, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
Now there is a radical idea. Have one voice for a religion.Who gets to decide who that one voice should be? The last time we had that was over 2,000 years ago. The saying "2 Jews 3 opinions" didn't come from nowhere.
Post by: KSMH on April 16, 2020, 11:45:06 PM
radical
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2020, 12:21:49 AM
Who gets to decide who that one voice should be? The last time we had that was over 2,000 years ago. The saying "2 Jews 3 opinions" didn't come from nowhere.Eventhen it wasn't one voice
Post by: yesitsme on April 17, 2020, 12:29:35 AM
Post by: EliJelly on April 17, 2020, 12:52:10 AM
we had a lot of fun with the porch minyan some joined some didnt but once the prayer was over everyone came out to "Hock" at each other, true simchas YTשמחת יו׳׳ט is a דאורייתא versus תפלה which is a דרבנן, or perhaps it's the דין מנין -getting together- which makes it so contagious ;D
Post by: CountValentine on April 17, 2020, 07:51:23 AM
Who gets to decide who that one voice should be? The last time we had that was over 2,000 years ago. The saying "2 Jews 3 opinions" didn't come from nowhere.Sarcasm.
Some religions have one voice.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 17, 2020, 10:07:38 AM
Sarcasm.Even as we crossed the Red Sea, there was 12 different tubes in that tunnel for the 12 different tribes.
Some religions have one voice.
Post by: ari3 on April 17, 2020, 02:07:35 PM
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2020, 04:03:36 PM
Post by: EliJelly on April 17, 2020, 04:09:47 PM
New letter from the Lakewood Poskim attachedWhat bad hefseidim happened during the ban that it needed to be revoked?
Post by: simple26 on April 17, 2020, 04:13:56 PM
What bad hefseidim happened during the ban that it needed to be revoked?from what I understand people joined IN houses instead of porches
Post by: Luvtotravel on April 17, 2020, 04:14:46 PM
New letter from the Lakewood Poskim attachedenglish synopsis?
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2020, 04:17:17 PM
english synopsis?Make porch minyanim if EWVERYONE keeps to the exact guidlines mentioned (stayin in their OWN private porch and the like) and that the shliach tzibur should stop if anyone not following.
Post by: yelped on April 17, 2020, 04:21:37 PM
What bad hefseidim happened during the ban that it needed to be revoked?Same question here. Davening past the Zman is not as bad as Pikiach Nefesh, so it can't be that.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 17, 2020, 04:40:25 PM
english synopsis?
Lakewood Rabbanim guidelines for "Porch Minyanim." pic.twitter.com/TQrLW7TETd
— The Meturgeman (@HaMeturgeman) April 17, 2020
Post by: KSMH on April 17, 2020, 04:43:13 PM
New letter from the Lakewood Poskim attachedLooks like many more Rabonim signed on this one than the ones in the past. Intrestesting!
Is there a reason why Rabbi Spitzer added his own line at the end?
Now this letter has been released, Rabbi Spitzer was Matur Minyanim on porches all along.
Its past due for people to realize there are many different opinions in Halachik Matters.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 17, 2020, 04:50:08 PM
Looks like many more Rabonim signed on this one than the ones in the past. Intrestesting!Dayan Spitzer davened in his home this yom tov by the screen door to his porch
Is there a reason why Rabbi Spitzer added his own line at the end?
Now this letter has been released, Rabbi Spitzer was Matur Minyanim on porches all along.
Its past due for people to realize there are many different opinions in Halachik Matters.
Post by: KSMH on April 17, 2020, 04:51:19 PM
Dayan Spitzer davened in his home this yom tov by the screen door to his porchI think this was due to the original letter before YT.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 17, 2020, 04:52:57 PM
I think this was due to the original letter before YT.Correct. Now Rabbi Chaim Meir Roth Shlita also said today that porch minyanim are kosher.
Post by: Dan on April 17, 2020, 04:54:06 PM
Its past due for people to realize there are many different opinions in Halachik Matters.This is very different than the porch minyanim that have been talked about until now.
Post by: KSMH on April 17, 2020, 04:54:56 PM
Correct. Now Rabbi Chaim Meir Roth Shlita also said today that porch minyanim are kosher.Nice to hear what I've been posting is accurate.
There was tremendous pressure on some to rethink thier pisakim, on both sides of the isle. It's a long story so it's for a verbal discussion, no time to write.
Post by: Crazy tools on April 17, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
I still don't see how this helps for Aiva, the whole reason why they assured was because of Aiva and stupid people and never because of legality. I dont understand how this changes anything besides make some people look they were forced into making the first letter ...
Post by: Dan on April 17, 2020, 05:03:55 PM
English versionIf everyone follows those rules, where is the aiva?
I still don't see how this helps for Aiva, the whole reason why they assured was because of Aiva and stupid people and never because of legality. I dont understand how this changes anything besides make some people look they were forced into making the first letter ...
But like you said, it's probably unlikely that people won't bend the rules, which is a sakana and aiva problem. That slippery slope argument was the reason for the original psak.
Post by: Crazy tools on April 17, 2020, 05:14:28 PM
If everyone follows those rules, where is the aiva?The way I understand the Aiva problem was not that the anti semites would see 10 people on porches and be ok with it but the 2 in a parking lot were the problem.
But like you said, it's probably unlikely that people won't bend the rules, which is a sakana and aiva problem. That slippery slope argument was the reason for the original psak.
Even if all 10 are on their porches just like this letter suggests the fact that they are wrapped in their Tallis is what's causing the issue.
Correct that the original set of rules was made because it's a slippery slope. Maybe now that it's public with a clear set of regulations will help as the minyan goers will feel empowered to kick the other guy away.
In my opinion either the first letter was never about Aiva or now they said heck with Aiva as I don't see how this takes care of the issue.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 05:14:47 PM
If everyone follows those rules, where is the aiva?So let me see if I have this right. Hatzolah can respond to an emergency call on shabbos to a sofeik pikuach nefesh even if you know its a goy because of aiva. We can have minyanim, in front of a goy's house (this is going on on my block every minyan and has caused the goy to come out cursing and call the police several times) and we dont worry about aiva. What is going on in Boro Park is not porch minyanim It is street minyanim with people congregating from half a block away standing six feet apart sometimes. Strolling back and forth most times. Congregating way less than 6 feet when there is kriyas hatorah. But @KSMH was right all along. I wish I could video what goes on here and what went on here all yom tov.
But like you said, it's probably unlikely that people won't bend the rules, which is a sakana and aiva problem. That slippery slope argument was the reason for the original psak.
On my block alone 3 neighbors lost their fathers (one of whom davened outside with a minyan and has his bar mitzvah age kids strolling all over the block), one lost his brother (He serves as baal tefillah of the second minyan on the block that goes on at the same time as the first one) and an old lady died at home this morning from presumed COVID. We also have sectarian minyanim...Gur chasidim, whose Rebbe has by all accounts been quarantined for at least 4 weeks davening alone insist on davening with their own minyan becuase "we dont say all the things that are said by other people."
THIS IS JUST SHEER INSANITY!!!
Post by: yesitsme on April 17, 2020, 05:15:38 PM
Post by: Dan on April 17, 2020, 05:19:07 PM
So let me see if I have this right. Hatzolah can respond to an emergency call on shabbos to a sofeik pikuach nefesh even if you know its a goy because of aiva. We can have minyanim, in front of a goy's house (this is going on on my block every minyan and has caused the goy to come out cursing and call the police several times) and we dont worry about aiva. What is going on in Boro Park is not porch minyanim It is street minyanim with people congregating from half a block away standing six feet apart sometimes. Strolling back and forth most times. Congregating way less than 6 feet when there is kriyas hatorah. But @KSMH was right all along. I wish I could video what goes on here and what went on here all yom tov.Clearly that's insanity.
On my block alone 3 neighbors lost their fathers (one of whom davened outside with a minyan and has his bar mitzvah age kids strolling all over the block), one lost his brother (He serves as baal tefillah of the second minyan on the block that goes on at the same time as the first one) and an old lady died at home this morning from presumed COVID. We also have sectarian minyanim...Gur chasidim, whose Rebbe has by all accounts been quarantined for at least 4 weeks davening alone insist on davening with their own minyan becuase "we dont say all the things that are said by other people."
THIS IS JUST SHEER INSANITY!!!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
Clearly that's insanity.Obviously the Rabbanim got it wrong...
Will the truth come out how thisadministrationmade blunder after blunder?
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2020, 05:21:59 PM
Nice to hear what I've been posting is accurate.
There was tremendous pressure on some to rethink thier pisakim, on both sides of the isle. It's a long story so it's for a verbal discussion, no time to write.
For the record, I did not discuss
So let me see if I have this right. Hatzolah can respond to an emergency call on shabbos to a sofeik pikuach nefesh even if you know its a goy because of aiva. We can have minyanim, in front of a goy's house (this is going on on my block every minyan and has caused the goy to come out cursing and call the police several times) and we dont worry about aiva. What is going on in Boro Park is not porch minyanim It is street minyanim with people congregating from half a block away standing six feet apart sometimes. Strolling back and forth most times. Congregating way less than 6 feet when there is kriyas hatorah. But @KSMH was right all along. I wish I could video what goes on here and what went on here all yom tov.@KSMH do you really not see the difference between the 2? There needed to be the blanket to hopefully ensure keeping to guidlines. There are developments where the Rov became a policeman keep it to everyone only on porches. There were others where the Rov had stopped it sionce it became apparent that the porch only rule couldn't be enforced. If it can be kept to then great! I myself had joined and davened for the amud at a minyan from porches as long as it was kept to. As soon as it was not I left. The issue is where it is not kept to!
On my block alone 3 neighbors lost their fathers (one of whom davened outside with a minyan and has his bar mitzvah age kids strolling all over the block), one lost his brother (He serves as baal tefillah of the second minyan on the block that goes on at the same time as the first one) and an old lady died at home this morning from presumed COVID. We also have sectarian minyanim...Gur chasidim, whose Rebbe has by all accounts been quarantined for at least 4 weeks davening alone insist on davening with their own minyan becuase "we dont say all the things that are said by other people."
THIS IS JUST SHEER INSANITY!!!
Post by: aygart on April 17, 2020, 05:23:22 PM
Obviously the Rabbanim got it wrong...There were definitely blunders on the part of some askonim.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 05:25:12 PM
@KSMH do you really not see the difference between the 2? There needed to be the blanket to hopefully ensure keeping to guidlines. There are developments where the Rov became a policeman keep it to everyone only on porches. There were others where the Rov had stopped it sionce it became apparent that the porch only rule couldn't be enforced. If it can be kept to then great! I myself had joined and davened for the amud at a minyan from porches as long as it was kept to. As soon as it was not I left. The issue is where it is not kept to!Where are we at setting gedarim in other areas of halacha? I think I'm ready to drop some of those too. Any good suggestions? If we can drop gedarim on vaddai pikuach nefesh some of the others are just chayvei krisus...meh...we can drop those easily. >:( >:( >:(
Post by: simple26 on April 17, 2020, 05:26:07 PM
Obviously the Rabbanim got it wrong...What did they get wrong ?(using your words)
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 05:26:10 PM
There were definitely blunders on the part of some askonim.Yes they went into hiding because there were no cameras around.
Post by: Dan on April 17, 2020, 05:31:02 PM
Obviously the Rabbanim got it wrong...If they weren't listened to and people created in-home minyanim, they must be hoping they'll be listened to now.
Whether that happens remains to be seen.
But IMHO it's an education problem. We're taught the value of a minyan and how our grandparents had misiras nefesh, but there's not enough focus on the value of your life and the life of your fellow and when is the right time for misiras nefesh.
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 17, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
These threads are so freaking depressing.
Post by: ExGingi on April 17, 2020, 05:56:19 PM
This is very different than the porch minyanim that have been talked about until now.
There's a minyan across the street from me that I could join from my front porch. When some neighbors saw how it was getting out of hand, a back porch minyan was established, where many of the חששות raised don't exist. No one is on a property other than their own where they can carry on Shabbos without an eiruv. Furthermore, it is not exposed to a public street, so only neighbors know about it.
The BIL of one of my neighbors lost his father on Chol Hamoed (age 96 IINM) and asked the Rov about kaddish. He was told that he may not join this minyan, but that he could ask someone from the minyan (his BIL) to say kaddish for him.
Another block has the most influential doctor in the community participate in front porch minyan. He constantly polices it for proper distancing.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 17, 2020, 05:56:48 PM
Der Basherfer Zul Inz Upheetin!!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
You know whats a wee bit more depressing...opening this site every few hours and seeing another person in my life gone because of something that may have been totally preventable. Besides the aforementioned 4 neighbors losing parents and a sibling and the 1 neighbor who actually died today, I have 3 friends who lost fathers, 2 childhood friends who died in the last week one 43 the other 50, 2 cousins in their low 50s and more.
I dont profess to know that minyanim killed any of them, but not taking any of this as seriously as it should have been taken couldnt have been a good thing. Of course it is the ratzon Hashem...but you cant just walk around and not do any hishtadlus.
Post by: S209 on April 17, 2020, 06:13:58 PM
You know whats a wee bit more depressing...opening this site every few hours and seeing another person in my life gone because of something that may have been totally preventable. Besides the aforementioned 4 neighbors losing parents and a sibling and the 1 neighbor who actually died today, I have 3 friends who lost fathers, 2 childhood friends who died in the last week one 43 the other 50, 2 cousins in their low 50s and more.It is debatable if you can call it Ratzon Hashem
I dont profess to know that minyanim killed any of them, but not taking any of this as seriously as it should have been taken couldnt have been a good thing. Of course it is the ratzon Hashem...but you cant just walk around and not do any hishtadlus.
Post by: yitzgar on April 17, 2020, 06:15:17 PM
You know whats a wee bit more depressing...opening this site every few hours and seeing another person in my life gone because of something that may have been totally preventable. Besides the aforementioned 4 neighbors losing parents and a sibling and the 1 neighbor who actually died today, I have 3 friends who lost fathers, 2 childhood friends who died in the last week one 43 the other 50, 2 cousins in their low 50s and more.+1million
I dont profess to know that minyanim killed any of them, but not taking any of this as seriously as it should have been taken couldnt have been a good thing. Of course it is the ratzon Hashem...but you cant just walk around and not do any hishtadlus.
Post by: yossig on April 17, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Obviously the Rabbanim got it wrong...Again?
Please keep them out!!
Everyones frustrated no need to bash again and again.
Post by: Toasted on April 17, 2020, 06:31:55 PM
Oh Askanim..... I personally cringe when I see/hear that word. FECH.If a family member needed a favor at a hospital, don't think you'll reach out to DDF. They're assisting many people in tremendous ways.
Der Basherfer Zul Inz Upheetin!!
They're human too and don't get so excited every time they make a mistake in the fog of war.
Post by: hvaces42 on April 17, 2020, 06:40:53 PM
Again?Gonna bash you now because you obviously dont get tongue in cheek humor or sarcasm. Read the thread before you accuse someone.
Please keep them out!!
Everyones frustrated no need to bash again and again.
Post by: neveryou on April 18, 2020, 08:54:19 PM
On friday we had a shacharis minyan and hopefully it will continue
Once they have 10 for the minyan, no one else is invited to the minyan
Post by: israshot on April 18, 2020, 08:57:55 PM
In my city there are people sitting shiva, we spoke to a rav and the local health inspector and they said we could only do a minyan outside, only 10 people with social distancingWhy are there ppl sitting shiva for?
On friday we had a shacharis minyan and hopefully it will continue
Once they have 10 for the minyan, no one else is invited to the minyan
(Sarcasm)
Post by: neveryou on April 18, 2020, 08:59:19 PM
Why are there ppl sitting shiva for?Believe it or not, people don't only die from corona
(Sarcasm)
Old age kills alot of people
Post by: israshot on April 18, 2020, 09:00:20 PM
Believe it or not, people don't only die from coronaOh then sure, the minyan can keep going. We are looking for Corona only.
Old age kills alot of people
Post by: mme on April 18, 2020, 09:59:38 PM
Oh then sure, the minyan can keep going. We are looking for Corona only.
In my city there are people sitting shiva, we spoke to a rav and the local health inspector and they said we could only do a minyan outside, only 10 people with social distancing
Post by: ari3 on April 18, 2020, 11:13:50 PM
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
Post by: S209 on April 18, 2020, 11:17:53 PM
A legal question.Location matters greatly in this question
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
Post by: hvaces42 on April 18, 2020, 11:19:23 PM
A legal question.In NY it is illegal to hold any non-essential gathering period. Social distancing capability is not the measure of compliance. Its whether the gathering is essential or not. Houses of Worship have been deemed non-essential.
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-signs-new-york-state-pause-executive-order
Post by: Luvisrael on April 18, 2020, 11:20:41 PM
A legal question.based on your location in your profile
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/nj-information/general-public/can-i-attend-any-in-person-gatherings-or-ceremonies-for-ramadan-passover-easter-or-other-religious-observations
Post by: Shmobaum on April 18, 2020, 11:33:16 PM
A legal question.Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringement
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
Post by: ari3 on April 18, 2020, 11:40:44 PM
Location matters greatly in this questionNJ (would be curious about NY as well)
Post by: ari3 on April 18, 2020, 11:44:40 PM
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringementWhat he wrote was that they cannot disallow something for a religious purpose if they are allowing it for a nonreligious purpose. In MS religion was deemed essential. I'm not sure if it was here.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
Post by: avromie7 on April 18, 2020, 11:45:53 PM
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringementWhat is similar and allowed to remain open? All the examples given in the statement you linked are closed in NY and NJ.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
Post by: KSMH on April 18, 2020, 11:54:56 PM
A legal question.
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
In NJ its 100% legal.
based on your location in your profile
https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/nj-information/general-public/can-i-attend-any-in-person-gatherings-or-ceremonies-for-ramadan-passover-easter-or-other-religious-observations
This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.
You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.
I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.
This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 12:05:27 AM
In NJ its 100% legal.
This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.
You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.
I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.
This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.
We went through this and I agree that it allows for travel for religious purposes. I realized that I don't think that was an exception for gatherings.
Post by: KSMH on April 19, 2020, 12:11:22 AM
We went through this and I agree that it allows for travel for religious purposes. I realized that I don't think that was an exception for gatherings.There is more then just this to legally allow it.
Post by: CountValentine on April 19, 2020, 12:19:30 AM
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringementExcept he does not consider this a religious infringement.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
Post by: ari3 on April 19, 2020, 12:29:06 AM
In NJ its 100% legal.I agree that Q&A are not legally binding and sometimes contain misinformation. I read thru the executive orders before I posted the question and could not find anything clear on this although I may have missed it. From what did you interpret that it is permitted?
This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.
You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.
I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.
This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 12:48:19 AM
There is more then just this to legally allow it.Such as?
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 12:55:28 AM
As a PS, I want to share a story.
My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said dont worry about it its overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.
A few days later, the guys mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.
Tonight, we received news of the petirah.
Hamakom yenachem kol haaveilim biyisroel
Post by: Luvisrael on April 19, 2020, 01:09:44 AM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/an-open-letter-from-dr-howard-lebowitz.htmlunfortunately Im hearing a bunch of these types of stories .
As a PS, I want to share a story.
My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said dont worry about it its overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.
A few days later, the guys mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.
Tonight, we received news of the petirah.
Hamakom yenachem kol haaveilim biyisroel
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 01:10:57 AM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/an-open-letter-from-dr-howard-lebowitz.htmlThis story doesnt fit the it happened in shul theory cuz as you
As a PS, I want to share a story.
My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said dont worry about it its overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.
A few days later, the guys mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.
Tonight, we received news of the petirah.
Hamakom yenachem kol haaveilim biyisroel
said the same guy who had the fever his own mother got ill RL.
But the point is well taken. Frightening. Dr. Shanik unfortunately made a costly mistake with grave consequences.
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 01:12:14 AM
This story doesnt fit the it happened in shul theory cuz as youCan you explain this please?
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 01:15:53 AM
Can you explain this please?Since the same person who had fever lost his mother RL. In other words had he quarantined and not stayed in shul it wouldnt of changed the story. But maybe there are 2 guys in the story above. Anyhow its sad.
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 01:21:12 AM
Since the same person who had fever lost his mother RL. In other words had he quarantined and not stayed in shul it wouldnt of changed the story. But maybe there are 2 guys in the story above. Anyhow its sad.Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.
Post by: ah giten on April 19, 2020, 01:24:34 AM
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 01:24:48 AM
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.
This is exactly my point, in addition to that his mother should probably done all in her power to stay away from him as well.
The attitude that may have caused his mothers death in this story (will stop short of outright blaming it on him, there were many people infected in Lakewood) also likely caused it to travel to other people who davened with him, and we dont have any direct tracing ability but Rl may have (can we say probably?) had other grave consequences.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 01:25:10 AM
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.Yeye. If I continue making my point Itll have impeachment trial flavor.
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 01:25:20 AM
His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.Definitely at that point.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 01:25:46 AM
His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.Youre definitely not completely wrong, though even after all of the Dr.s came out in unison there were unfortunately loud dissenters that exacerbated things
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 01:41:41 AM
Youre definitely not completely wrong, though even after all of the Dr.s came out in unison there were unfortunately loud dissenters that exacerbated thingsI dont think we can easily blame the hamon am. Number 1, the overwhelming majority of ppl heeded the advice. Number 2, there wasnt a unified voice in Lakewood ever about the minyanim/stay at home etc etc... I would sadly blame the askanim וכו׳ וכו׳ והמבין יבין...
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 01:46:58 AM
I dont think we can easily blame the hamon am. Number 1, the overwhelming majority of ppl heeded the advice. Number 2, there wasnt a unified voice in Lakewood ever about the minyanim/stay at home etc etc... I would sadly blame the askanim וכו׳ וכו׳ והמבין יבין...I dont like the fact that the hamon am need a definitive psak to use common sense and not endanger themselves and others. I have witnessed and heard numerous things from people in the last few weeks that have made me alternately laugh, cry, wince, and/or shudder.
As @aygart posted a few weeks ago (paraphrasing), I dont like the fact that my life and health is linked to the common sense of others
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 01:49:57 AM
I dont like the fact that the hamon am need a definitive psak to use common sense and not endanger themselves and others. I have witnessed and heard numerous things from people in the last few weeks that have made me alternately laugh, cry, wince, and/or shudder.In many of our communities there are many who are not equipped on many levels to have been able to understand the severity of this
As @aygart posted a few weeks ago (paraphrasing), I dont like the fact that my life and health is linked to the common sense of others
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 01:53:29 AM
In many of our communities there are many who are not equipped on many levels to have been able to understand the severity of thisYou right, however if every family physician has a different take and protocol on how to deal with this then its very confusing. I wasnt referring to rabbanim... thats a rabbit hole Ill stay out of
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 01:54:49 AM
You right, however if every family physician has a different take and protocol on how to deal with this then its very confusing. I wasnt referring to rabbanim... thats a rabbit hole Ill stay out ofAlways thought you seemed smart
Also, at some point, most physicians came around to exhorting people to be super cautious on every level
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2020, 01:57:27 AM
Always thought you seemed smartSome were way too late with tragic consequences.
Also, at some point, most physicians came around to exhorting people to be super cautious on every level
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 02:01:05 AM
Some were way too late with tragic consequences.I had a sharp conversation with someone who went in to Dr. Shanik that Sunday about corona and repeated what he said to me. I dont want to repeat it because I think hes a real tzadik and fantastic doctor who unfortunately made a terrible mistake, but suffice it to say I very strongly suggested he switch doctors immediately and insinuated the presence of senility.
Im also aware of a small mutiny in his practice that was brewing among the other doctors before he came over to their side.
Post by: Shmobaum on April 19, 2020, 02:09:08 AM
I had a sharp conversation with someone who went in to Dr. Shanik that Sunday about corona and repeated what he said to me. I dont want to repeat it because I think hes a real tzadik and fantastic doctor who unfortunately made a terrible mistake, but suffice it to say I very strongly suggested he switch doctors immediately and insinuated the presence of senility.Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnt hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who dont have symptoms.
Im also aware of a small mutiny in his practice that was brewing among the other doctors before he came over to their side.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 02:12:41 AM
Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnt hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who dont have symptoms.Someone asked a poignant question upthread.. lesson over here is though, even doctors can make mistakes.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I bh did my part and managed to have a school closed early which likely resulted in some lives being saved.
Post by: YitzyS on April 19, 2020, 02:24:49 AM
A legal question.On this subject - from http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2020/04/news-updates-friday-isru-chag-pesach.html#more
Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.
I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
-Fox News Tucker Carlson presses N.J Gov. Phil Murphy on why he allowed the arrests of 15 men at the funeral of a rabbi in Ocean County in early April and why religious services are be part of coronavirus quarantine enforcement. "The Bill of Rights protects Americans' rights enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?" "That's above my pay grade, Tucker," the governor responded. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights watch video HERE
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/16/nj_gov_phil_murphy_vs_tucker_carlson_by_what_authority_did_you_nullify_the_bill_of_rights_in_issuing_this_quarantine_order.html
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 19, 2020, 02:29:43 AM
Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnt hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who dont have symptoms.
This is terrifying. For all the blaming of individuals and rabbis for minyanim and whatnot, the main issue was a lack of guidance and clear communication from the federal and state level. How many lives were jeopardized because a local doctor didn't have/give proper information?
Post by: yuneeq on April 19, 2020, 05:14:23 AM
Deep in the background could hear the chazzan screaming from around the corner, as neighbors hopped from porch to porch to coordinate and discuss logistics. Post davening all had a nice schmooze together in the street. Corona guy went door to door to try to find a sefer torah and a basement guy found a place on upstairs porch to shelter from rain.
Rule #8 is the only one we didnt break. But then again the sefer torah was too far for me to hear.
Post by: YitzyS on April 19, 2020, 08:59:45 AM
My friend joined a porch minyan after the new guidance came out from the Lakewood Poskim.So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??
Deep in the background could hear the chazzan screaming from around the corner, as neighbors hopped from porch to porch to coordinate and discuss logistics. Post davening all had a nice schmooze together in the street. Corona guy went door to door to try to find a sefer torah and a basement guy found a place on upstairs porch to shelter from rain.
Rule #8 is the only one we didnt break. But then again the sefer torah was too far for me to hear.
People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.
End rant.
As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.
Post by: CountValentine on April 19, 2020, 09:34:49 AM
On this subject - from http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2020/04/news-updates-friday-isru-chag-pesach.html#moreTucker is nothing but a political hack but I watched it anyway. That wasn't the smartest line but he did go on to say lawyers look at everything he does.
-Fox News Tucker Carlson presses N.J Gov. Phil Murphy on why he allowed the arrests of 15 men at the funeral of a rabbi in Ocean County in early April and why religious services are be part of coronavirus quarantine enforcement. "The Bill of Rights protects Americans' rights enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?" "That's above my pay grade, Tucker," the governor responded. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights watch video HERE
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/16/nj_gov_phil_murphy_vs_tucker_carlson_by_what_authority_did_you_nullify_the_bill_of_rights_in_issuing_this_quarantine_order.html
Post by: Dan on April 19, 2020, 09:35:50 AM
So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??Much of what we do are gedarim on top of gedarim as those Rabbis knew that we would falter otherwise.
People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.
End rant.
As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.
If people won't listen to protect their own lives and the lives of others then more gedarim are needed.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 09:46:33 AM
This is terrifying. For all the blaming of individuals and rabbis for minyanim and whatnot, the main issue was a lack of guidance and clear communication from the federal and state level. How many lives were jeopardized because a local doctor didn't have/give proper information?
Actually, its worse. Dr. Shanik in Lakewood is the true Posek Acharon on all medical related matters for the Yeshivish community, so he holds more sway than most ordinary doctors.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 09:50:07 AM
So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??Youre right about the local Rabbanim enforcing but a major problem is that no matter how clear cut and strong the wording is many just excuse disregard of the details by saying its Hatzala and askanim overreacting and applying pressure and not really a psak
People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.
End rant.
As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.
Tucker is nothing but a political hack but I watched it anyway. That wasn't the smartest line but he did go on to say lawyers look at everything he does.It was embarrassing and although I dont a