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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 / Wuhan Novel Coronavirus Discussion => Topic started by: monoso on March 21, 2020, 11:39:30 PM

Title: yeshivas that are open
Post by: monoso on March 21, 2020, 11:39:30 PM
Is it true that the detroit yeshivah that telz cleveland and  scrantont are still open?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: MeirS on March 21, 2020, 11:54:05 PM
Is it true that the detroit yeshivah that telz cleveland and  scrantont are still open?
Chabad Yeshiva in Detroit is closed
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: herb on March 22, 2020, 01:07:52 AM
Telshe cleveland is indeed open
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yitzgar on March 22, 2020, 01:09:12 AM
Telshe cleveland is indeed open
My understanding is that nobody is allowed to leave
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: herb on March 22, 2020, 01:19:55 AM
My understanding is that nobody is allowed to leave
allowed to leave but anyone who leaves campus is not allowed back
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: herb on March 22, 2020, 01:24:37 AM
Telshe cleveland is indeed open
i heard they had the health department of Ohio come down and said so long as they quarantine the campus, then they are good to go. Some rebeim who don't live on campus are not being allowed in
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Joel2 on April 21, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
?s=20

?s=20
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehudaa on April 21, 2020, 12:36:09 PM
Anyone want to take a guess on how long it'll take for one of these to show up as a news items in this thread? (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115005.400)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: shapsam on April 21, 2020, 12:39:02 PM
Anyone want to take a guess on how long it'll take for one of these to show up as a news items in this thread? (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115005.400)
You can't make all haters happy, if it's legal then they should open IMO.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehudaa on April 21, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
You can't make all haters happy, if it's legal then they should open IMO.

I wasn't commenting on whether they should or should not open (that's a question for the rabbanim of each of those communities, and for countless other DDF threads), just predicting that it might very well end up in that thread :(
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Traveler718 on April 21, 2020, 02:10:52 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">To Clarify: Our Tweets about opening <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Mesivta?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Mesivta</a> Is just the plan for now, it will be changing probably every few hours... <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Don?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Don</a>'tGiveUp</p>&mdash; Ichud5780news איחוד תש&quot;פ (@Ichud5780news) <a href="?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 21, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2020, 02:17:42 PM
?s=20

?s=20

Not going to happen legally by next week.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on April 21, 2020, 02:23:29 PM
?s=20

?s=20
Which mesivta is this and located where? (twitter is blocked on my browser so I cant click the link)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on April 21, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Not going to happen legally by next week.
Based on your vast expertise In Corona? Or what's going on behind the scenes in this country?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2020, 02:54:09 PM
Based on your vast expertise In Corona? Or what's going on behind the scenes in this country?

I wasnt expressing expertise on anything. Its an opinion based on what Im seeing reported. Halevai I should be proven wrong.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on April 21, 2020, 03:14:53 PM
I wasnt expressing expertise on anything. Its an opinion based on what Im seeing reported. Halevai I should be proven wrong.
You didn't say I assume, you said it with certainty.
Don't believe everything you read, plenty of yeshivas all over are getting permission to open.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2020, 03:17:56 PM
You didn't say I assume, you said it with certainty.
Don't believe everything you read, plenty of yeshivas all over are getting permission to open.

Im certain about my opinion 😊

Getting permission to open next week? In the NYC area?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2020, 03:22:47 PM
You didn't say I assume, you said it with certainty.
Don't believe everything you read, plenty of yeshivas all over are getting permission to open.
Watch them open with "permission" and be shut down by the police within the hour and be all over national news.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 22, 2020, 03:42:42 AM
You didn't say I assume, you said it with certainty.
Don't believe everything you read, plenty of yeshivas all over are getting permission to open.
Huh? Where is this? I dont believe everything I read, and Im questioning your sourceless statement which I find really hard to believe.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Onefishtwofishredfishblue on April 22, 2020, 06:31:23 AM
https://gothamist.com/news/ultra-orthodox-hasidic-yeshivas-classes-brooklyn-coronavirus?_gl=1*1nonse2*_ga*YW1wLU9xblJibENmMDlsRG1vTV9JUWNvTFE.#comments

I highly doubt the legitimacy of this article, regardless look at the comments, it's disgusting...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 23, 2020, 02:22:03 AM
https://gothamist.com/news/ultra-orthodox-hasidic-yeshivas-classes-brooklyn-coronavirus?_gl=1*1nonse2*_ga*YW1wLU9xblJibENmMDlsRG1vTV9JUWNvTFE.#comments

I highly doubt the legitimacy of this article, regardless look at the comments, it's disgusting...
The comments are horrible and I feel like a bad person for saying this but I thought this was actually really funny

Quote
Tell them you're going to take down the magic wire around the city if they keep this up.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Mordyk on April 23, 2020, 02:32:33 AM
https://gothamist.com/news/ultra-orthodox-hasidic-yeshivas-classes-brooklyn-coronavirus?_gl=1*1nonse2*_ga*YW1wLU9xblJibENmMDlsRG1vTV9JUWNvTFE.#comments

I highly doubt the legitimacy of this article, regardless look at the comments, it's disgusting...
I spoke to a Williamsburg parent that told me his boys have school. He called the principal and told him that his kids are not joining. They had to go through a special building entrance.  Each kid has a certain minute to enter so it doesn't look suspicious
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yochiek93 on April 23, 2020, 02:36:59 AM
I spoke to a Williamsburg parent that told me his boys have school. He called the principal and told him that his kids are not joining. They had to go through a special building entrance.  Each kid has a certain minute to enter so it doesn't look suspicious
🤦🏻‍♂️
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 23, 2020, 02:44:58 AM
I spoke to a Williamsburg parent that told me his boys have school. He called the principal and told him that his kids are not joining. They had to go through a special building entrance.  Each kid has a certain minute to enter so it doesn't look suspicious
Just wow.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: SamCan on April 23, 2020, 02:45:49 AM
Just wow.


Do they have dreidlich to play with for when the cops come.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on April 23, 2020, 06:56:31 AM

Do they have dreidlich to play with for when the cops come.

Better, they have smart phones.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Mordyk on April 23, 2020, 09:28:01 AM
I actually think step #1 to reopening can be smaller classes in basements.   And in Lakewood can be outdoor classes once the weather becomes better.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Iz on April 23, 2020, 09:42:48 AM
Slightly off topic:
What is the best info we now have re when mosdos will be allowed to open (even under strict guidelines) in NJ?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: grodnoking on April 23, 2020, 09:46:21 AM
Slightly off topic:
What is the best info we now have re when mosdos will be allowed to open (even under strict guidelines) in NJ?
No info is the best info you'll get.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehudaa on April 23, 2020, 09:51:14 AM
Slightly off topic:
What is the best info we now have re when mosdos will be allowed to open (even under strict guidelines) in NJ?
I don't think there's any way to know. Hard for anyone to predict.

Unfortunately, I assume you're not going to get any more useful info than this guy got: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115725.0
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Iz on April 23, 2020, 10:15:42 AM
No info is the best info you'll get.
Let's put it this way: What do we know for sure? Meaning, what is the earliest possible date?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Iz on April 23, 2020, 10:16:12 AM
Unfortunately, I assume you're not going to get any more useful info than this guy got: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115725.0 (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115725.0)
Oh no, I don't want to get that treatment! :o
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 24, 2020, 06:54:57 PM
Let's put it this way: What do we know for sure? Meaning, what is the earliest possible date?
September
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Iz on April 25, 2020, 09:22:12 PM
September
Really? Yeshivos gedolos?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: RewardsAddict on April 25, 2020, 09:42:49 PM
Really? Yeshivos gedolos?
Satmar in Monroe is officially opening this sunday. They are having all bachurim take the antibodies test first.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on April 25, 2020, 09:51:37 PM
I wonder if these ppl publicizing names ever consulted with דעת תורה to verify that its not מסירה.

I know its all in the name of G-D, but just make sure its done the right way.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: RewardsAddict on April 25, 2020, 09:52:37 PM
I wonder if these ppl publicizing names ever consulted with דעת תורה to verify that its not מסירה.

I know its all in the name of G-D, but just make sure its done the right way.
They put out a tweet about it so i doubt theyre keeping it quiet. Officially they said it will be legal as only the boys who have the antibodies will be allowed in.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on April 25, 2020, 09:57:51 PM
They put out a tweet about it so i doubt theyre keeping it quiet. Officially they said it will be legal as only the boys who have the antibodies will be allowed in.
many other names mentioned here and on many places in MSM
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Iz on April 25, 2020, 09:59:28 PM
they said it will be legal as only the boys who have the antibodies will be allowed in.
Is that correct? If yes, why aren't all the yeshivos doing that? And for that matter, shuls too.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on April 25, 2020, 10:00:17 PM
many other names mentioned here and on many places in MSM
I wonder if these ppl publicizing names ever consulted with דעת תורה to verify that its not מסירה.

I know its all in the name of G-D, but just make sure its done the right way.

Doesn't matter. Those people are going to hell for not davening with a minyan, anyway. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on April 25, 2020, 10:18:53 PM
I wonder if these ppl publicizing names ever consulted with דעת תורה to verify that its not מסירה.

I know its all in the name of G-D, but just make sure its done the right way.
Didn't Rav Chaim Kanievsky say it's mutar to give over to the government?  ;)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 25, 2020, 10:27:22 PM
Satmar in Monroe is officially opening this sunday. They are having all bachurim take the antibodies test first.
I would be shocked if this is legal. Are they also not allowing any older/at risk staff in?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yitzgar on April 25, 2020, 10:28:59 PM
Doesn't matter. Those people are going to hell for not davening with a minyan, anyway. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Lol
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: RewardsAddict on April 25, 2020, 10:29:26 PM
I would be shocked if this is legal. Are they also not allowing any older/at risk staff in?
Not sure the details, and frankly I found it hard to believe too. I got my information from someone whose brother is in the yeshiva.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 25, 2020, 10:33:20 PM
Not sure the details, and frankly I found it hard to believe too. I got my information from someone whose brother is in the yeshiva.
Sounds nutty. We will see. If they do, Im sure well be hearing more about it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on April 25, 2020, 10:42:37 PM
Doesn't matter. Those people are going to hell for not davening with a minyan, anyway. In for a penny, in for a pound.
funny how everything in your head is black and white
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 25, 2020, 11:25:05 PM
funny how everything in your head is black and white
Some things actually ARE black and white. Not here specifically, and Ive never said that davening with a minyan now/a few weeks ago is necessarily wrong across the board, but the attitude of Minyan above all else IS wrong. Pikuach Nefesh has to at least factor into the decision, no matter the outcome.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2020, 11:33:23 PM
Satmar in Monroe is officially opening this sunday. They are having all bachurim take the antibodies test first.

I agree with others that this is foolish/dangerous. Regardless, Im curious if theyre trusting rapid tests and what % of students who get tested for antibodies test positive.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on April 25, 2020, 11:58:06 PM
Some things actually ARE black and white. Not here specifically, and Ive never said that davening with a minyan now/a few weeks ago is necessarily wrong across the board, but the attitude of Minyan above all else IS wrong. Pikuach Nefesh has to at least factor into the decision, no matter the outcome.
why dont you think that it wasnt a factor? Because the decision was different of what you were expecting??
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on April 26, 2020, 12:01:27 AM
why dont you think that it wasnt a factor? Because the decision was different of what you were expecting??
Did you read what I wrote? People who didnt skip a beat, and jumped from one excuse to the next without bothering to even so much as pause and think, exhibited an attitude toward life that is unacceptable.

If someone paused, consulted doctors and Rabbanim, and then made a decision, then I may or may not disagree, but at least I can see where they are coming from.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on April 26, 2020, 12:02:12 AM
funny how everything in your head is black and white

Lol! Yep, that's me, black and white. Just like the cookie. I'm also a bit thicker around the middle. And artificially sweet. And lacking real substance... Man, this was eye opening.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 26, 2020, 03:25:15 AM
Satmar in Monroe is officially opening this sunday. They are having all bachurim take the antibodies test first.
If this is real and not just a rumor, I... I'm speechless. You'd think nothing would shock me anymore, but this forum provides a gut punch every single day.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 26, 2020, 03:26:40 AM
Lol! Yep, that's me, black and white. Just like the cookie. I'm also a bit thicker around the middle. And artificially sweet. And lacking real substance... Man, this was eye opening.
Some might say you're half baked.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yammer on April 26, 2020, 05:46:19 AM
They put out a tweet about it so i doubt theyre keeping it quiet. Officially they said it will be legal as only the boys who have the antibodies will be allowed in.
Lol...If you even think that Satmer Monroe has an official Twitter account ..
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on April 26, 2020, 06:03:43 AM
Some might say you're half baked.

Back in the day...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on April 26, 2020, 04:34:25 PM
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2020, 05:08:38 PM
That's following the rules?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on April 26, 2020, 06:01:48 PM
That's following the rules?
According to this journalist, yes.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on April 26, 2020, 07:23:55 PM
According to this journalist, yes.

I wonder what the rules are...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on April 27, 2020, 01:36:00 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/357268.html

According to this article some yeshivos in E"Y with dormitories will be able to reopen later this week.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Proisrael on April 27, 2020, 02:09:00 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/357268.html

According to this article some yeshivos in E"Y with dormitories will be able to reopen later this week.

Outside of Big Malls and Entertainment places, everything else is open. Why should Shuls/Yeshivas be different?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on April 27, 2020, 07:46:50 AM
https://m.ynet.co.il/Articles/5721569
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yfr bachur on April 27, 2020, 12:00:27 PM
I have heard (third hand) that at least one of the yeshivos in JLM affiliated with the ice tea ideology is open - under the table. and the bachurim and avreichim were told to straight out lie if anyone (even relatives) asked them about whats going on with yeshiva and shiur. (Its the yeshiva that prides itself on being on the moon)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: moish on April 27, 2020, 04:49:55 PM
Outside of Big Malls and Entertainment places, everything else is open. Why should Shuls/Yeshivas be different?
Prolonged exposure with probably no mask, at best around the chin vs very brief exposure with someone enforcing mask usage
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Joel2 on April 27, 2020, 05:30:29 PM
School in Israel

(https://i.imgur.com/N9rQMp0.jpg)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on April 27, 2020, 06:37:49 PM
School in Israel

(https://i.imgur.com/N9rQMp0.jpg)
You left out the details.

Mainly that this is what a cheder is Bnei Brak is doing in the hopes that the Health Ministry will allow them to open earlier.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on April 27, 2020, 07:17:01 PM
You left out the details.

Mainly that this is what a cheder is Bnei Brak is doing in the hopes that the Health Ministry will allow them to open earlier.
Earlier than Sunday? They should be happy with what they are getting!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on April 27, 2020, 07:39:34 PM
Earlier than Sunday? They should be happy with what they are getting!
I don't think all grades are supposed to be opening on Sunday.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: KSMH on April 30, 2020, 09:01:34 PM

Is this true?

Any one informed on pennsylvania law, just curios?

Whos getting these points and night credits?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Joel2 on May 03, 2020, 07:56:15 AM

Whos getting these points and night credits?

Probably using a debit card LOL
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: stooges44 on May 07, 2020, 02:30:28 PM
https://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/3330c7d2-1570-441e-8621-60cd5541883b.mp4?_=1
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: stooges44 on May 18, 2020, 02:37:51 PM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/tip-leads-nypd-to-bust-illicit-brooklyn-orthodox-school/2421918/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 18, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
https://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/3330c7d2-1570-441e-8621-60cd5541883b.mp4?_=1
A bunch of Yeshivos are opening (some already open) in Pennsylvania. All bachurim must be tested before coming, then once theyre in, nobody can leave the grounds.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: flyingace on May 18, 2020, 03:07:44 PM
What are the rules in PA? People are making weddings there as well.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 18, 2020, 03:20:05 PM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/tip-leads-nypd-to-bust-illicit-brooklyn-orthodox-school/2421918/

playing on the roof?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on May 18, 2020, 07:04:25 PM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/tip-leads-nypd-to-bust-illicit-brooklyn-orthodox-school/2421918/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 18, 2020, 07:10:38 PM
playing on the roof?
Many schools in Brooklyn have play areas on the roof. Regardless if you are illegally opening a yeshiva having the kids play on the roof in full view is pretty dumb.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 18, 2020, 07:12:18 PM
notice the discrepancy. NBC more than 100 children, Deblasio as many as 70 children
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on May 19, 2020, 09:05:58 AM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/tip-leads-nypd-to-bust-illicit-brooklyn-orthodox-school/2421918/
(https://i.imgur.com/RdiSlElh.jpg)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 09:38:58 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/RdiSlElh.jpg)
Anti-Semitism thread?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Ergel on May 19, 2020, 09:40:08 AM
Can I ask why that headline is anti-semetic?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yehudaa on May 19, 2020, 09:41:38 AM
(http://)
Anyone want to take a guess on how long it'll take for one of these to show up as a news items in this thread? (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115005.400)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 09:41:51 AM
Can I ask why that headline is anti-semetic?
Nope!  ;D
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on May 19, 2020, 09:43:06 AM
Anti-Semitism thread?
I believe any school with 70 children open now, can make a headline.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 09:48:35 AM
I believe any school with 70 children open now, can make a headline.

Absolutely, but the headline can be seen as saying that this is yet another way Chassidim have been a pain in the ass during this pandemic. I personally don't have a problem with it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: shapsam on May 19, 2020, 10:09:11 AM
Absolutely, but the headline can be seen as saying that this is yet another way Chassidim have been a pain in the ass during this pandemic. I personally don't have a problem with it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
So all "Chassidim" are playing stupid games?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:30:34 AM
So all "Chassidim" are playing stupid games?

No. I said it can be interpreted that way, but I don't have an issue with the headline. I think it's accurate, in line with how they would treat any headline, and doesn't generalize. Full break. Now, as Jews, if we don't want to be in the headlines, we shouldn't do stupid things. And while it's a small minority doing these things, we can't complain when they make headlines with their stupidity.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 03:21:10 PM
No. I said it can be interpreted that way, but I don't have an issue with the headline. I think it's accurate, in line with how they would treat any headline, and doesn't generalize. Full break. Now, as Jews, if we don't want to be in the headlines, we shouldn't do stupid things. And while it's a small minority doing these things, we can't complain when they make headlines with their stupidity.
From their point of view what they are doing is right and if the price of doing business is risking the headlines than they are willing to accept that risk.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 03:21:21 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862338/watch-news12-reporter-blaise-gomez-says-kiryas-joel-yeshiva-open-ny-state-police-say-its-legal.html
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 03:30:59 PM
From their point of view what they are doing is right and if the price of doing business is risking the headlines than they are willing to accept that risk.

If the price of doing business was only a few headlines...

The reality is, that while the headline wasn't anti-Semitic, it will definitely lead to a rise in anti-Semitism, and that's a price we all pay. I'm not thrilled that they are ok with that cost of doing business.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 03:44:31 PM
If the price of doing business was only a few headlines...

The reality is, that while the headline wasn't anti-Semitic, it will definitely lead to a rise in anti-Semitism, and that's a price we all pay. I'm not thrilled that they are ok with that cost of doing business.
Chassidim in general are not that into aiva, worrying that what they do is going to be perceived by the non jewish or secular world as bad etc..

For example in many communities (my own included) the main reason shuls are still closed is because of gov't regulations, by the chassidim this is much less of a consideration

Although they usually try to do things under the radar as much as possible
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: simple26 on May 19, 2020, 03:54:07 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862338/watch-news12-reporter-blaise-gomez-says-kiryas-joel-yeshiva-open-ny-state-police-say-its-legal.html
This reporting is going to be the new norm for the for seeable future......
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 04:45:41 PM
If the price of doing business was only a few headlines...

The reality is, that while the headline wasn't anti-Semitic, it will definitely lead to a rise in anti-Semitism, and that's a price we all pay. I'm not thrilled that they are ok with that cost of doing business.

A very prominent Willi/Satmar Ruv told me, his understanding is there is no Aiva in doing mitzvot. He argued that davining with a minyan or learning in a yeshiva should not be scrutinized by Aiva, rather only if it is safe.
Same as you cant use Aiva as a basis for not sitting in a sukkah in a non-Jewish neighborhood or putting on tefillin on a plane
Aiva is only when a non-jew asks you to sell him something or help him and its Shabbos...

P.S. I can understand the other way of looking at this
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Chapshnell on May 19, 2020, 04:48:57 PM
A very prominent Willi/Satmar Ruv told me his understanding is there is no Aiva in doing mitzvot. He argued that saving in a minyan or learning in a yeshiva should not be scrutinized by Aiva rather only if it safe.
Same as you cant use Aiva for not sitting in a sukkah or putting on filling on a plane
Aiva is only when a non-jew asks you to sell him something or help him and its say Shabbos...

P.S. I can understand the other way of looking at this

I dont understand 50% of this post
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 06:57:21 PM
A very prominent Willi/Satmar Ruv told me, his understanding is there is no Aiva in doing mitzvot. He argued that davining with a minyan or learning in a yeshiva should not be scrutinized by Aiva, rather only if it is safe.
Same as you cant use Aiva as a basis for not sitting in a sukkah in a non-Jewish neighborhood or putting on tefillin on a plane
Aiva is only when a non-jew asks you to sell him something or help him and its Shabbos...

P.S. I can understand the other way of looking at this
You can only be mechalel shabbos but not miss tefila bitzibur?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 06:58:06 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862338/watch-news12-reporter-blaise-gomez-says-kiryas-joel-yeshiva-open-ny-state-police-say-its-legal.html
Misleading headline by YWN as well
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 08:31:37 PM
You can only be mechalel shabbos but not miss tefila bitzibur?

You can be mechalel shabbos but not miss tfillin?

Question is is there Avia in doing mitzvos

Reminds me of a psak from Dovid Stav permitting shaking a woman's hand. As embarrassing her is a deorisa and shaking her hand is only a derabonon.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 08:45:26 PM
You can only be mechalel shabbos but not miss tefila bitzibur?
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 19, 2020, 08:46:32 PM
Reminds me of a psak from Dovid Stav permitting shaking a woman's hand. As embarrassing her is a deorisa and shaking her hand is only a derabonon.
Is it her who's embarrassed or you?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 08:49:01 PM
Is it her who's embarrassed or you?

She is hurt by me not wanting to shake her hand
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 09:00:40 PM
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 09:16:23 PM
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.
Care to explain the similarity?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 09:30:48 PM
Care to explain the similarity?

This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 09:43:12 PM
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.

Law? Backyard  with social distancing it's against the law in New Jersey

In New York up until chol hamoed shul are allowed to schedule service. currently they are allowed to be open but aren't allowed to schedule service
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 09:43:55 PM
Law? Backyard  with social distancing it's against the law in New Jersey

In New York up until chol hamoed shul are allowed to schedule service. currently they are allowed to be open but aren't allowed to schedule service

And this has what to do with opening a school?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 09:44:31 PM
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
This is disobeying laws that were instituted for public safety that at this point have as much to do with politics as with safety. If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

There is no way "to figure out how to do it like everybody else". Just like most small businesses are suffering because there is no way to "figure it out" so are bochurim and yeshivos suffering. There is no way to operate a yeshiva under lockdown just like you can't operate a clothing store under lockdown. No, phone or zoom classes is not a functioning yeshiva. Ask any mechanech trying teach right now' ask any kollel yungerman trying to learn now.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 09:44:42 PM
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.

If the law does not allowed you to put up a sukah (like Montreal) are you פטור?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 09:45:49 PM
And this has what to do with opening a school?

Avia was used in Lakewood long before schools. It was used in reasoning for disallowing backyard minyonim
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 09:47:17 PM
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
I wasn't asking about the law, just about aiva.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 09:48:30 PM


If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

The first time around seems to have taken 2 months to spike from what we now know.

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 09:52:38 PM
I wasn't asking about the law, just about aiva.

No, you asked for this to be explained:
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.

The reason it's not just "something they don't like" is because it's illegal, whereas not shaking a woman's hand, or putting on tefilin on a plane, or eating shechted meat are all legal, but some people just don't like it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 09:53:55 PM
No, you asked for this to be explained:
The reason it's not just "something they don't like" is because it's illegal, whereas not shaking a woman's hand, or putting on tefilin on a plane, or eating shechted meat are all legal, but some people just don't like it.
Look what that post was a response to.\
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yard sale on May 19, 2020, 09:54:32 PM
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
It is not equally imposed. Exceptions are carved out for essentials that people cant live without. By the non-Jews that includes grocery, home improvement centers, and beaches. Religious observance is way down on their list. If the general public was into religious services to the degree they are into their gardening, home improvement projects, and Memorial Day trip to the beach, you can bet that religious services would be prioritized because it would be politically untenable not to do so.

That being said aiva is not a catch all. The first siman in shulchan aruch says one should persist and not be embarrassed from those making fun of him performing mitzvos. Yet we know that one is allowed to put on shoes on tisha beav when he goes in non Jewish areas where he will be made fun of for going barefoot.

The answer would seem to be that if the non Jews are making fun of the mitzvah being performed one should ignore it, but if the non Jews simply make fun of the Jews lack of shoes not because it is a mitzvah that can be taken into consideration. Similarly, if the aiva is that the non Jews dont like the fact that Jews are doing mitzvos that is not something that should stop us. On the contrary, that can sometimes be considered shas hashmad requiring more sacrifice to keep doing the mitzvos. However when the not Jews have aiva not because the Jew is doing a mitzvah but because of a legitimate concern, even if it is misplaced and incorrect, that would be aiva and must be taken into account.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 09:57:17 PM
This is disobeying laws that were instituted for public safety that at this point have as much to do with politics as with safety. If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

There is no way "to figure out how to do it like everybody else". Just like most small businesses are suffering because there is no way to "figure it out" so are bochurim and yeshivos suffering. There is no way to operate a yeshiva under lockdown just like you can't operate a clothing store under lockdown. No, phone or zoom classes is not a functioning yeshiva. Ask any mechanech trying teach right now' ask any kollel yungerman trying to learn now.

We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 09:58:02 PM
We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
What are your views based on?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:01:42 PM
What are your views based on?
Mine are based on what I have seen from my rabbeim and they told me that they saw it with theirs.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:02:32 PM
Look what that post was a response to.\

Yes... he gave examples of things that are legal, but just reflect poorly on the Jew in the eyes of the goyim. The response: "Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is." Because they are not equal comparisons. As explained above.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:02:59 PM
Mine are based on what I have seen from my rabbeim and they told me that they saw it with theirs.
What are your views? Re: Opening when it's against the law.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:03:46 PM
What are your views based on?

The piskei dinim of every Lubavitcher Rov and Beis Din. And I understand that others will have different views, which is why
We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:03:51 PM
Look what that post was a response to.\
Yes and I was pointing out how the comparison is nonsensical. The aiva over here is not at all the way he wss describing. It was a bunch of purple getting reckless with lives and putting others in danger
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:04:19 PM
Yes... he gave examples of things that are legal, but just reflect poorly on the Jew in the eyes of the goyim. The response: "Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is." Because they are not equal comparisons. As explained above.
So you're saying illegal makes it Aiva? I understood you to say it's assur just if it's illegal. CMIIW
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:05:00 PM
What are your views? Re: Opening when it's against the law.
I don't think they should be ignored and definitely not in the own.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:05:47 PM
So you're saying illegal makes it Aiva? I understood you to say it's assur just if it's illegal. CMIIW

No, I'm saying illegal makes it illegal. Saying it's the same as bowing to random whims of goyim is not an equal argument. That is all I said.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:06:57 PM
Yes and I was pointing out how the comparison is nonsensical. The aiva over here is not at all the way he wss describing. It was a bunch of purple getting reckless with lives and putting others in danger
If that's the case it would be assur without the aiva. Anyone who thinks they can daven with minyanim, doesn't think they're being reckless with lives. The whole question of aiva is only if it would be muttar otherwise.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:08:42 PM
Yes and I was pointing out how the comparison is nonsensical. The aiva over here is not at all the way he wss describing. It was a bunch of purple getting reckless with lives and putting others in danger
You keep confusing aiva with danger.

I respect the rabbonim that are guiding the policies of these institutions to decide that opening a yeshiva is not getting reckless and putting others in danger more than I trust Cuomo or you on that or at least I feel that they are entitled to decide that. So that brings us back to the question of aiva.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:08:45 PM
So you're saying illegal makes it Aiva? I understood you to say it's assur just if it's illegal. CMIIW
When they are making guidelines to save lives and everyone is seeing many hidden openly ignoring it is aiva. This should not be difficult to understand. Just look at the anti semitism that it caused. As far as aiva goes it makes no difference if others are doing it to our worse.  You need to be really delusional to be unable to comprehend this. How can it not be aiva to do things which everyone rightly and reasonably understands as creating a public danger?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:08:49 PM
No, I'm saying illegal makes it illegal. Saying it's the same as bowing to random whims of goyim is not an equal argument. That is all I said.

We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
What does this mean?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:11:16 PM
When they are making guidelines to save lives and everyone is seeing many hidden openly ignoring it is aiva. This should not be difficult to understand. Just look at the anti semitism that it caused. As far as aiva goes it makes no difference if others are doing it to our worse.  You need to be really delusional to be unable to comprehend this. How can it not be aiva to do things which everyone rightly and reasonably understands as creating a public danger?
What anti semitism are you referring to? Nasty blog comments?
Again,
If that's the case it would be assur without the aiva. Anyone who thinks they can daven with minyanim, doesn't think they're being reckless with lives. The whole question of aiva is only if it would be muttar otherwise.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:11:43 PM
If that's the case it would be assur without the aiva. Anyone who thinks they can daven with minyanim, doesn't think they're being reckless with lives. The whole question of aiva is only if it would be muttar otherwise.
You keep confusing aiva with danger.

I respect the rabbonim that are guiding the policies of these institutions to decide that opening a yeshiva is not getting reckless and putting others in danger more than I trust Cuomo or you on that or at least I feel that they are entitled to decide that. So that brings us back to the question of aiva.
Wrong and wrong. It is a question of whether to make kuntzim which may make it safer but would not be understood by those seeing it and would be viewed as being reckless.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:13:01 PM
When they are making guidelines to save lives and everyone is seeing many hidden openly ignoring it is aiva. This should not be difficult to understand. Just look at the anti semitism that it caused. As far as aiva goes it makes no difference if others are doing it to our worse.  You need to be really delusional to be unable to comprehend this. How can it not be aiva to do things which everyone rightly and reasonably understands as creating a public danger?
Most people at this point don't "rightly and reasonably understands that as creating a public danger" and they definitely don't think so.The fact that a number of yeshivos have been open already for a little while and there isn't a spike in cases would seem that they aren't wrong
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:13:16 PM
What does this mean?

It means that my rabbonim have decided that opening schools in violation of the government laws is not acceptable. Other rabbonim disagree. That's what it means. Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:13:29 PM
Wrong and wrong. It is a question of whether to make kuntzim which may make it safer but would not be understood by those seeing it and would be viewed as being reckless.
When they are making guidelines to save lives and everyone is seeing many hidden openly ignoring it is aiva. This should not be difficult to understand. Just look at the anti semitism that it caused. As far as aiva goes it makes no difference if others are doing it to our worse.  You need to be really delusional to be unable to comprehend this. How can it not be aiva to do things which everyone rightly and reasonably understands as creating a public danger?
Which one?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:14:05 PM
What anti semitism are you referring to? Nasty blog comments?
Again,
Sending the police to Jewish areas. Comments by the mayor. Hospitals not treating Jews properly because they brought it upon themselves. This was specifically called out by the Lakewood rabbonim. Actual attacks against Jews. Are you blind?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:14:38 PM
It means that my rabbonim have decided that opening schools in violation of the government laws is not acceptable. Other rabbonim disagree. That's what it means. Nothing more, nothing less.
Fair enough. I thought you meant it was your personal views.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:14:54 PM
Which one?
What is your question?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:16:11 PM


The fact that a number of yeshivos have been open already for a little while and there isn't a spike in cases would seem that they aren't wrong
This is counterfactual as I have already pointed out.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:16:22 PM
Sending the police to Jewish areas. Comments by the mayor. Hospitals not treating Jews properly because they brought it upon themselves. This was specifically called out by the Lakewood rabbonim. Actual attacks against Jews. Are you blind?
The only one that's significant is the last one. Did it really happen?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:16:48 PM
It means that my rabbonim have decided that opening schools in violation of the government laws is not acceptable. Other rabbonim disagree. That's what it means. Nothing more, nothing less.
some people here have a hard time understanding that other rabbonim have opinions that are different than theirs, and that they have a right to have those opinions.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:17:14 PM
What is your question?
Is it because it's an actual public danger or a percieved one?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:17:51 PM
The only one that's significant is the last one. Did it really happen?

Yes.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:18:26 PM
The only one that's significant is the last one. Did it really happen?
Every single one is significant.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: EliJelly on May 19, 2020, 10:18:37 PM
This is counterfactual as I have already pointed out.
Isn't this just a theory as of now? The reopening criteria is definitely not based on a two month spike.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:20:12 PM
Every single one is significant.
Says who? Chilul Shabbos would be muttar for the first 2 reasons?
Yes.
I'll take your word.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:20:49 PM
Is it because it's an actual public danger or a percieved one?
Because they are skirting a rule made for public safety. It is right for someone to object to that since it will undermine the role. It is also rightly perceived as b being dangerous on its own.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:22:59 PM
Isn't this just a theory as of now? The reopening criteria is definitely not based on a two month spike.
I am not making a deduction he is. The reopening is being bungled immensely and should move much faster. The criteria they are using are not with scientific basis.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:23:31 PM
some people here have a hard time understanding that other rabbonim have opinions that are different than theirs, and that they have a right to have those opinions.

On a personal level, I'm very much disturbed by their decision and the ramifications that may come from it, and I will continue to voice my opinions about these things. But to argue with you over what your rabbonim say is pointless, just like it would be pointless for you to argue with me about what my rabbonim say.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:23:51 PM
Hospitals not treating Jews properly because they brought it upon themselves. This was specifically called out by the Lakewood rabbonim.
There is a reason the lakewood rabbonim backtracked on that one so fast. The hospital in question has been mistreating Jews well before there was Covid 19

Quote
Actual attacks against Jews
Source?

Quote
Are you blind?
You seem to be the one who has a hard time seeing others opinions. I would't be calling others blind
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:24:06 PM
Says who? Chilul Shabbos would be muttar for the first 2 reasons?I'll take your word.
Those are what led to the attacks do they are not at all disconnected.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:26:00 PM
On a personal level, I'm very much disturbed by their decision and the ramifications that may come from it, and I will continue to voice my opinions about these things. But to argue with you over what your rabbonim say is pointless, just like it would be pointless for you to argue with me about what my rabbonim say.
They are actually not my Rabbonim. My childrens schools and yeshivos are closed. I still respect these Rabbonims positions and am of the opinion that they are entitled to have them even if others don't agree
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:27:14 PM
There is a reason the lakewood rabbonim backtracked on that one so fast. The hospital in question has been mistreating Jews well before there was Covid 19
Source?
You seem to be the one who has a hard time seeing others opinions. I would't be calling others blind
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:28:00 PM
Because they are skirting a rule made for public safety. It is right for someone to object to that since it will undermine the role.
They do not view it as a rule made for public safety, unless you're judging purely on intent.
It is also rightly perceived as being dangerous on its own.
Not rightly, but still a point.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:29:25 PM
They do not view it as a rule made for public safety, unless you're judging purely on intent. Not rightly, but still a point.
The rule that there should not be gathering or that they didn't make a million exceptions for every way that it can possibly be done safely?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:29:38 PM
Those are what led to the attacks do they are not at all disconnected.
IDK what attacks you're referring to? physical? verbal?
ETA: This is also just your personal opinion.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:30:42 PM
The rule that there should not be gathering or that they didn't make a million exceptions for every way that it can possibly be done safely?
The lack of nuance in the rule ;)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:31:14 PM


There is a reason the lakewood rabbonim backtracked on that one so fast.
They were saying this for at least 3 weeks. Is that what you mean by so fast?

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
Says who? Chilul Shabbos would be muttar for the first 2 reasons?I'll take your word.
The only reason mentioned on that list that would warrant chillul shabbos is the second (maybe?) At this point I would doubt that reason would apply
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:33:07 PM
The lack of nuance in the rule ;)
Correct there is no nuance in the rule. That itself is needed for public safety. I understand that it can be viewed otherwise, but it is a sensible argument that it needs to bee blanket to be effective.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:33:55 PM
The only reason mentioned on that list that would warrant chillul shabbos is the second (maybe?) At this point I would doubt that reason would apply
They are all one. There are many cases of aiva which do not involve police.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:34:08 PM
Correct there is no nuance in the rule. That itself is needed for public safety. I understand that it can be viewed otherwise, but it is a sensible argument that it needs to bee blanket to be effective.
Except there is nuance. Just not for this.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:34:25 PM
They were saying this for at least 3 weeks. Is that what you mean by so fast?
The forbidding of all minyonim because there was an aiva that reached a level of chillul shabbos
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
Says who? Chilul Shabbos would be muttar for the first 2 reasons?I'll take your word.

https://abc7ny.com/antisemitic-attack-antisemitism-brooklyn-williamsburg/6195504/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chinagel on May 19, 2020, 10:36:08 PM
https://abc7ny.com/antisemitic-attack-antisemitism-brooklyn-williamsburg/6195504/
If anything, those have slowed down in the past few months. GN. Can continue tomorrow maybe :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:36:39 PM
The forbidding of all minyonim because there was an aiva that reached a level of chillul shabbos
Are you trying to say that it is because that hospital always mistreated Jews that they began allowing porch minyanim again? You think that was the thought process?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 19, 2020, 10:39:39 PM
If anything, those have slowed down in the past few months. GN. Can continue tomorrow maybe :)

You asked for a case, I gave you one. That's it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 10:40:41 PM
If anything, those have slowed down in the past few months. GN. Can continue tomorrow maybe :)
That and all other violent crime.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:22:09 PM
There is a reason the lakewood rabbonim backtracked on that one so fast. The hospital in question has been mistreating Jews well before there was Covid 19
Source?
You seem to be the one who has a hard time seeing others opinions. I would't be calling others blind
My sisters first cousin was treated terribly in one hospital in NY, a nurse told another nurse in his room these guys just keep praying and endangering all of us, he deserves to die. Heard directly from my sister who heard it from the patients mother.

I also know of a similar story in Jersey Shore.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: joeb1 on May 19, 2020, 11:24:28 PM
first cousin-mother-sister-to you wow must've for sure been said
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 11:25:17 PM
first cousin-mother-sister-to you wow must've for sure been said
Huh
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:25:57 PM
They do not view it as a rule made for public safety, unless you're judging purely on intent. Not rightly, but still a point.
Youve got to be kidding me. Do you not understand what hes saying?

If you are perceived to be in violation of a law that is perceived to be in place for everybodys safety that is probably a violation of the prohibition of causing of aiva.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:27:14 PM
first cousin-mother-sister-to you wow must've for sure been said
Im not understanding. Who are you calling a liar:  me, my sister, or her aunt? Her aunt was directly informed by her son who was the patient.

Mind you this aunt lost her brother and 2 cousins to COVID, as a sad footnote.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: joeb1 on May 19, 2020, 11:31:18 PM
We get it. You are emotional about the issue/schools/minyanim/covid/rabbis/drs etc . We see it on every chat regarding COVID. No need to profess it constantly.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 11:33:47 PM
We get it. You are emotional about the issue/schools/minyanim/covid/rabbis/drs etc . We see it on every chat regarding COVID. No need to profess it constantly.
Please talk like a mentch.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:39:49 PM
We get it. You are emotional about the issue/schools/minyanim/covid/rabbis/drs etc . We see it on every chat regarding COVID. No need to profess it constantly.
Aha. So that is your logical rebuttal to the factual evidence I presented? Almost as coherent as
first cousin-mother-sister-to you wow must've for sure been said
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 11:41:24 PM
Im not understanding. Who are you calling a liar:  me, my sister, or her aunt? Her aunt was directly informed by her son who was the patient.

Mind you this aunt lost her brother and 2 cousins to COVID, as a sad footnote.

I think he did not say it in proper manner

What he meant. Ppl tend not to believe third-hand stories.
not necessarily accusing anybody of lying it's just a feeling parts got changed up along the way or exaggerated

As a footnote I lost two grandmothers, one uncle and one first cousin to coved
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:45:23 PM
Aha. So that is your logical rebuttal to the factual evidence I presented? Almost as coherent as

ok officially went from 99% not respecting what he says to 110%....moving right along
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 19, 2020, 11:49:25 PM
Back on track

We all believe there is Avia by not treating a nonjew on Shabbat
We all believe there is no Avia for doing mitzvos in public

If there is imminent danger we should close shuls

We disagree if there is no imminent danger but
against the law
or not against the law but maybe perceived by a nonjew as endangering the public if we have avia
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 11:51:22 PM
I think he did not say it in proper manner
You think?


What he meant. Ppl tend not to believe third-hand stories.
not necessarily accusing anybody of lying it's just a feeling parts got changed up along the way or exaggerated

As a footnote I lost two grandmothers, one uncle and one first cousin to coved
If someone has trouble believing the accuracy and cares, feel free to PM me. I obviously have my sisters number. I was responding to a post that didnt believe such stories are true (when Rabbi Forscheimer himself publicly said it over!). When a response is an ad hominem attack on my publicly stated sources it says something about the underlying strength of said position...

I feel terrible about your loss. I dont doubt that many people on these forums have suffered horribly.

We get it. You are emotional about the issue/schools/minyanim/covid/rabbis/drs etc . We see it on every chat regarding COVID. No need to profess it constantly.

I dont recall being overly emotional, I actually thought most of my posts on these topics have been logically sound. Please do quote me where I seem to let emotion cloud reason if you disagree. PUOSU. I havent seen any substance in your posts, but then, you havent shown much knowledge on the subject as it is.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 19, 2020, 11:54:21 PM
first cousin-mother-sister-to you wow must've for sure been said
We get it. You are emotional about the issue/schools/minyanim/covid/rabbis/drs etc . We see it on every chat regarding COVID. No need to profess it constantly.
The chutzpah was supposed to stop before lag b'omer. Please stop.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yard sale on May 20, 2020, 12:03:35 AM
My sisters first cousin was treated terribly in one hospital in NY, a nurse told another nurse in his room these guys just keep praying and endangering all of us, he deserves to die. Heard directly from my sister who heard it from the patients mother.

I also know of a similar story in Jersey Shore.

I can confirm similar instances in Jersey Shore before pesach from nurses as well as admin including senior admin. That sentiment has changed significantly since pesach, however, and the the sheer number of frum patients in those medical facilities before pesach which gave rise to chashash aiva is no longer a concern.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 20, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
Back on track

We all believe there is Avia by not treating a nonjew on Shabbat
correct, this is the Halacha
We all believe there is no Avia for doing mitzvos in public- certainly not universally, there are many times we dont do a mitzvah as properly as we should for aiva concerns, one case is possibly wearing tzitzis out (MB 8-11) (disclaimer: I didnt go through the whole sugya but it a popular example)

If there is imminent danger we should close shuls nothing to do with aiva

We disagree if there is no imminent danger but
against the law or not against the law but maybe perceived by a nonjew as endangering the public if we have avia
there seems to be disagreement in a case where something is prohibited by law, believed to be in the interest of public safety, and you dont believe it is actually dangerous, despite it possibly having severe ramifications as has been occurring already. I dont understand it, but that seems to be where the argument is.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 20, 2020, 12:08:42 AM
I can confirm similar instances in Jersey Shore before pesach from nurses as well as admin including senior admin. That sentiment has changed significantly since pesach, however, and the the sheer number of frum patients in those medical facilities before pesach which gave rise to chashash aiva is no longer a concern.
Thank you for the additional DP. Agreed that regarding this circumstances have changed dramatically.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: chevron on May 20, 2020, 12:10:27 AM
https://mobile.kikar.co.il/abroad/article/360561

The minute the yeshiva's open, the virus will go away!!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ari3 on May 20, 2020, 01:20:36 AM
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/haredi-parents-in-new-york-say-yeshivas-already-holding-classes-628658
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Proisrael on May 20, 2020, 09:11:30 AM
https://mobile.kikar.co.il/abroad/article/360561

The minute the yeshiva's open, the virus will go away!!

It is beautiful to see everyone back again in yeshiva. But I dont understand the lack of masks and 2 meters? Is that something that will change now?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Jellybelly on May 20, 2020, 09:18:46 AM
https://mobile.kikar.co.il/abroad/article/360561

The minute the yeshiva's open, the virus will go away!!
I think this is the first time since this started that I actually agree with you!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 20, 2020, 09:28:48 AM
It is beautiful to see everyone back again in yeshiva. But I dont understand the lack of masks and 2 meters? Is that something that will change now?
They all isolated before in capsules for two weeks and were constantly tested. All the capsules that were corona free were allowed to all isolate together in the yeshiva and act as a regular yeshiva.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: flyingace on May 20, 2020, 09:53:35 AM
I can confirm similar instances in Jersey Shore before pesach from nurses as well as admin including senior admin. That sentiment has changed significantly since pesach, however, and the the sheer number of frum patients in those medical facilities before pesach which gave rise to chashash aiva is no longer a concern.
I can confirm first hand as well.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 21, 2020, 04:38:57 PM


https://www.charidy.com/openschools/


P.S. I know nothing about this
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on May 21, 2020, 05:03:44 PM

https://www.charidy.com/openschools/


P.S. I know nothing about this

Who is this Jehoseph (sic) Fried and what entitles him to this $250k? Whats going to be done with the money? Hes going to be a representative plaintiff in what?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 21, 2020, 06:58:10 PM

https://www.charidy.com/openschools/


P.S. I know nothing about this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxl0b9ixrc34z42/Full%20Clip-400.mp4?dl=0
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: israshot on May 25, 2020, 12:12:35 PM
Take a walk in Williamsburg's streets to hear the קול תורה and the children singing the davening...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: grodnoking on May 25, 2020, 12:37:10 PM
I know a yeshiva which plans on opening next week, with (positive) antibodies test and (negative) covid test.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 03:34:30 PM
I know a yeshiva which plans on opening next week, with (positive) antibodies test and (negative) covid test.
This describes many if not most Yeshivos in Lakewood. Some have already started with that. I think its a decent plan, though what happens to those without antibodies? They stay over the phone?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: grodnoking on May 25, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
This describes many if not most Yeshivos in Lakewood. Some have already started with that. I think its a decent plan, though what happens to those without antibodies? They stay over the phone?
That is a good question, and it's taking some figuring out. It makes things complicated.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on May 25, 2020, 04:09:10 PM
This describes many if not most Yeshivos in Lakewood. Some have already started with that. I think its a decent plan, though what happens to those without antibodies? They stay over the phone?
They move to bk for 2 weeks. Then they get their antibodies
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on May 25, 2020, 04:12:36 PM
I know a yeshiva which plans on opening next week, with (positive) antibodies test and (negative) covid test.

Or in other words: the Trump test, testing positively negative.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 04:21:01 PM
They move to bk for 2 weeks. Then they get their antibodies
Lol, I really hope not
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 25, 2020, 04:28:00 PM
Lol, I really hope not

I am curious about one point in all of this. I was talking to a friend of mine that as far as he knows he did not come into contact with anyone that was infected at any point. He told me that he is scared to go back to shul because he doesn't know what will be if he gets exposed/infected. On the other hand I do know of people that had direct exposure to one or more family members who are less worried to move forward and go into a little bit of a more high risk situation.

Do people think is a misguided approach?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 04:31:11 PM
I am curious about one point in all of this. I was talking to a friend of mine that as far as he knows he did not come into contact with anyone that was infected at any point. He told me that he is scared to go back to shul because he doesn't know what will be if he gets exposed/infected. On the other hand I do know of people that had direct exposure to one or more family members who are less worried to move forward and go into a little bit of a more high risk situation.

Do people think is a misguided approach?
Which, the first guy or the other people?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 25, 2020, 04:39:49 PM
Which, the first guy or the other people?
Other people. First guy I definitely hear.

Also Im not sure why I took this OT, just saw talk about people not having antibodies and therefore being excluded from yeshiva. Now I see people are making another level of people who were exposed but didnt get anything and are therefore less worried
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 05:03:35 PM
Other people. First guy I definitely hear.

Also Im not sure why I took this OT, just saw talk about people not having antibodies and therefore being excluded from yeshiva. Now I see people are making another level of people who were exposed but didnt get anything and are therefore less worried
I think the first guy is misguided.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 05:08:31 PM
I think the first guy is misguided.
Misguided because you have a theory that must be right?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 05:11:01 PM
Misguided because you have a theory that must be right?
No, because for a young healthy person the risk is negligible.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 05:12:41 PM
Other people. First guy I definitely hear.

Also Im not sure why I took this OT, just saw talk about people not having antibodies and therefore being excluded from yeshiva. Now I see people are making another level of people who were exposed but didnt get anything and are therefore less worried
They are definitely misguided but there is at least an argument to be made. If the theory that some people may be less susceptible to catching the virus altogether (for example, due to exposure to previous coronaviruses) is true, then strong previous exposure can be used as anecdotal evidence that this person is more likely to fall into that category.

Of course, its at best a theory, and even if the theory is true their lack of contracting the virus previously in no way necessarily means that they are of that category, it just means they failed to catch it yet for some reason, of which one may be that theyre less susceptible.

So yes, theyre definitely misguided (and likely under informed), but there is at least a scientific possibility that they have a point.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 05:14:58 PM
No, because for a young healthy person the risk of immediate death is negligible compared to some other things (though we certainly have no idea of long term potential ramifications and they can become a spreader of the virus to other more vulnerable people).
FTFY
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 25, 2020, 05:24:54 PM
They are definitely misguided but there is at least an argument to be made. If the theory that some people may be less susceptible to catching the virus altogether (for example, due to exposure to previous coronaviruses) is true, then strong previous exposure can be used as anecdotal evidence that this person is more likely to fall into that category.

Of course, its at best a theory, and even if the theory is true their lack of contracting the virus previously in no way necessarily means that they are of that category, it just means they failed to catch it yet for some reason, of which one may be that theyre less susceptible.

So yes, theyre definitely misguided (and likely under informed), but there is at least a scientific possibility that they have a point.
I dont think that its a theory. They found blood samples that could not have possibly been exposed to COVID (from 2015) and were immune to it because of the presence of T-cells.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 05:36:59 PM
FTFY
People who are afraid of the unknown to the point of not going out are usually prescribed medication for anxiety.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 25, 2020, 05:38:26 PM
Then there's also the theory that @Dan posted a few times, which posits that there are some people who are super spreaders and more contagious than others. If that theory is correct, then having been exposed to many people with light viral shedding doesn't mean you won't catch it in shul, which is more or less accepted to be a higher risk place (due to closed quarters, loud singing, extended periods in one place, etc.).
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 25, 2020, 05:39:56 PM
I dont think that its a theory. They found blood samples that could not have possibly been exposed to COVID (from 2015) and were immune to it because of the presence of T-cells.

They didn't prove that those cells conferred immunity on anyone. They found that those particular cells may be resistant to Covid.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 25, 2020, 05:41:15 PM
People who are afraid of the unknown to the point of not going out are usually prescribed medication for anxiety.

So are people who disregard all risk. What's your point?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 05:46:23 PM
So are people who disregard all risk. What's your point?
I've never heard of anyone getting anxiety medication for disregarding risk.

I think you understood my point, but you choose to keep your doomsday rhetoric going.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 25, 2020, 05:49:19 PM
I've never heard of anyone getting anxiety medication for disregarding risk.

I think you understood my point, but you choose to keep your doomsday rhetoric going.

Not anxiety medication, other meds, but you understood my point, too.

We each have our opinions, and I'm not trying to change yours, but to call someone misguided for trying to avoid a pandemic and equating it to people who are scared of the boogeyman is a bit much.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 25, 2020, 05:50:19 PM
Its really impossible to have civil discussions here these days isnt it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 06:03:36 PM
Not anxiety medication, other meds, but you understood my point, too.

We each have our opinions, and I'm not trying to change yours, but to call someone misguided for trying to avoid a pandemic and equating it to people who are scared of the boogeyman is a bit much.
Anyone should be able to understand that the risk to young healthy people is negligible.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on May 25, 2020, 06:22:35 PM
Anyone should be able to understand that the risk to young healthy people is negligible.
And then people find out that they are not actually perfectly healthy. Did you perhaps already forget how many young people died in the last 2 months?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 06:36:52 PM
And then people find out that they are not actually perfectly healthy. Did you perhaps already forget how many young people died in the last 2 months?
How many of those young people had other risk factors and were aware of them? Sure there were some who didn't, but they're rare.

Life comes with risk, as things stand for young healthy people those risk are incredibly low.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 25, 2020, 06:38:05 PM
How many of those young people had other risk factors and were aware of them? Sure there were some who didn't, but they're rare.

Life comes with risk, as things stand for young healthy people those risk are incredibly low.
Incredibly low?

Low enough to put go and in all likelihood expose yourself for the first time?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 06:48:06 PM
Incredibly low?

Low enough to put go and in all likelihood expose yourself for the first time?
I think the car analogy is appropriate.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on May 25, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
People who are afraid of the unknown to the point of not going out are usually prescribed medication for anxiety.
'2020' and 'usually' are two very different things :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 07:08:50 PM
'2020' and 'usually' are two very different things :)
I think it's very likely more people were prescribed anxiety medications that usual, although I don't have any data to back it up.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: biobook on May 25, 2020, 07:17:23 PM
Anyone should be able to understand that the risk to young healthy people is negligible.

Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on May 25, 2020, 07:23:56 PM
Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?
Does that mean that someone in that situation should try to avoid exposure? Or just that they shouldn't assume they are out of the woods?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: biobook on May 25, 2020, 07:39:18 PM
Does that mean that someone in that situation should try to avoid exposure? Or just that they shouldn't assume they are out of the woods?

It means that when a novel disease appears, everything about it is unknown.  We shouldn't pretend that we know that the risks to young people are negligible, when all of humanity has had a mere 5 months to study the disease. 

In general, I would think that טוב לאדם שלא נחלה, משנחלה
If I hadn't caught it, I would make every effort to avoid getting covid.
If I had covid and recovered, I would still make every effort to avoid re-infection.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 07:39:54 PM
Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?
There are always things we don't know, you can't live in fear all your life.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: simple26 on May 25, 2020, 07:54:00 PM
I think it's very likely more people were prescribed anxiety medications that usual, although I don't have any data to back it up.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-people-are-taking-drugs-for-anxiety-and-insomnia-and-doctors-are-worried-11590411600
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 08:08:38 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-people-are-taking-drugs-for-anxiety-and-insomnia-and-doctors-are-worried-11590411600
now that's worrisome.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: biobook on May 25, 2020, 08:17:36 PM
There are always things we don't know, you can't live in fear all your life.

You're right, there are always things we don't know, and we have to make decisions in life without perfect information about how to proceed. 

People differ in how they make those decisions.  Some ignore the lack of information, and quickly make what seems the best choice.  Others prefer to move more slowly and gather more information before deciding. 

The slow-moving, information-gatherers here are not necessarily scaredy cats suffering from acute anxiety.  They just take a different approach towards decision-making.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 25, 2020, 08:24:57 PM
now that's worrisome.

Puh-leaze. Can you stop hiding behind other people's anxiety? This isn't about saving other people's mental health. You just don't think this is a pandemic or any bigger risk than driving a car. That's as far as this argument goes. It's not even the flu, it's the common cold. Just life as usual.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 08:30:15 PM
Puh-leaze. Can you stop hiding behind other people's anxiety? This isn't about saving other people's mental health. You just don't think this is a pandemic or any bigger risk than driving a car. That's as far as this argument goes. It's not even the flu, it's the common cold. Just life as usual.
You missed the very important caveat, "for young healthy people". This discussion is not about what people should do to protect others, it's about young healthy people who are scared of getting the virus.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
You're right, there are always things we don't know, and we have to make decisions in life without perfect information about how to proceed. 

People differ in how they make those decisions.  Some ignore the lack of information, and quickly make what seems the best choice.  Others prefer to move more slowly and gather more information before deciding. 

The slow-moving, information-gatherers here are not necessarily scaredy cats suffering from acute anxiety.  They just take a different approach towards decision-making.
Your posts make my day :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yard sale on May 25, 2020, 09:30:08 PM
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. Ive done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasnt going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like Im taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the who knows what we dont know about this virus approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? Its possible. But thats not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? Thats not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? Thats life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. Im not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. Thats not where were holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 09:35:22 PM
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. Ive done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasnt going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like Im taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the who knows what we dont know about this virus approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? Its possible. But thats not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? Thats not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? Thats life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. Im not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. Thats not where were holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.
Very well said, this is exactly what I've been saying, you just explained it much better.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 25, 2020, 09:37:46 PM
Wow, @Yard sale couldn't have said it any better.

Obviously opinions will vary within that spectrum, but I definitely like the way you compartmentalized the argument.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 10:10:32 PM
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. Ive done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasnt going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like Im taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the who knows what we dont know about this virus approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? Its possible. But thats not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? Thats not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? Thats life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. Im not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. Thats not where were holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.
I agree with just about your entire post. Well said.

One thing that detracts from perfectly valid arguments is a poor analogy. Many here have been making them. Please dont compare an active threat of a circulating novel deadly virus which has ALREADY claimed the lives of tens of thousands including many in the community with the remote possibility of a war breaking out. You can compare it to a war in EXISTENCE that has claimed lives and its a question whether it has abated enough to return.

The question currently is not about getting reinfected or a mysterious unknown disease. It is about people who have not been infected willfully risking themselves and others while a virus with no innate immunity is circulating with the potential for a full on deadly second wave, which has happened in many past pandemics and in all likelihood IS going to happen. Its NOT like driving in the snow, through Manhattan, or on the Belt.

The biggest thing holding me back from lowering caution more is that the very same people who ignored and derided the risk early on are doubling down harder on the supposed lack of risk now. @Yard sale, if you stopped attending Shul before Purim due to perceived risk but now feel the risk has passed, you are an anomaly. Ashrecha. Most on here who deny any risk factor today called it the flu and stuck to their guns as people dropped all around them.

Once again, I definitely think the current risk in my community right now is far lower than it was due to a combination of factors. I also strongly support lowering or removing many of the restrictions in place.

Very well said, this is exactly what I've been saying, you just explained it much better.
Not quite
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 10:36:44 PM

One thing that detracts from perfectly valid arguments is a poor analogy. Many here have been making them. Please dont compare an active threat of a circulating novel deadly virus which has ALREADY claimed the lives of tens of thousands including many in the community with the remote possibility of a war breaking out. You can compare it to a war in EXISTENCE that has claimed lives and its a question whether it has abated enough to return.
Are you saying tens of thousands of young healthy people died?

Not quite
You've got your head stuck so deep, you can't see what's going on around you.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 10:40:27 PM



Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. .
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 10:40:58 PM
Are you saying tens of thousands of young healthy people died?
You've got your head stuck so deep, you can't see what's going on around you.
Yeah, youre right. Anyone being cautious just needs anxiety medication and should never drive cars because its exactly the same thing. And its a liberal hoax to take down Trump when its really just the flu.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2020, 10:43:10 PM
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why


New diagnosis in my community just shut down our Shavuos plans. C'est la vie.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 10:48:48 PM
Yeah, youre right. Anyone being cautious just needs anxiety medication and should never drive cars because its exactly the same thing. And its a liberal hoax to take down Trump when its really just the flu.
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between young healthy people and people who are at high risk.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 10:51:45 PM
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between young healthy people and people who are at high risk.
You seem to have trouble understanding that young people ARE at significant risk relative to other illnesses and can be carriers of a deadly virus to other more vulnerable people.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 10:52:19 PM
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between young healthy people and people who are at high risk.
Are these people with high risk for anxiety? Did they have a prior anxiety issue?


Are the more new anxiety cases or more 30-50 year old getting seriously ill?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 10:53:54 PM
Are these people with high risk for anxiety? Did they have a prior anxiety issue?


Are the more new anxiety cases or more 30-50 year old getting seriously ill?
Are the anxiety cases brought on by people who have lost loved ones or have loved ones that are severely ill?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:02:56 PM
You seem to have trouble understanding that young people ARE at significant risk relative to other illnesses and can be carriers of a deadly virus to other more vulnerable people.
Young healthy people aren't at significant risk, all the data shows this.

A young healthy person shouldn't be living in fear. Should they protect the vulnerable? Of course! but why are they living in fear?

Are these people with high risk for anxiety? Did they have a prior anxiety issue?


Are the more new anxiety cases or more 30-50 year old getting seriously ill?
  These numbers are very significant. They may very well have had prior anxiety issues, but the notion that there are no significant mental health issues due to the lockdown is ridiculous.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-people-are-taking-drugs-for-anxiety-and-insomnia-and-doctors-are-worried-11590411600
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on May 25, 2020, 11:03:47 PM
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why
we are fooling ourselves if we believe there aren't any infected people out there. The differences that stand out to me would be, that at the time we were under the illusion that this can be stopped in its tracks. and now we have a much better understanding of how there are those who are much more susceptible to this virus than others
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 11:06:24 PM
we are fooling ourselves if we believe there aren't any infected people out there. The differences that stand out to me would be, that at the time we were under the illusion that this can be stopped in its tracks. and now we have a much better understanding of how there are those who are much more susceptible to this virus than others
Are the numbers of people young enough to have harried children who were victims low enough for you to consider that am acceptable risk? How about the older people who caught it even with precautions?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:08:35 PM
Are the anxiety cases brought on by people who have lost loved ones or have loved ones that are severely ill?
Prescriptions for anti-anxiety increased by 900k, that's 9 for every death in the country. Antidepressants increased by 2.5M, or 25 for every death. Theres no way anywhere near that number is caused by people who lost loved ones.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on May 25, 2020, 11:11:20 PM
@avromie7

Why do you keep on saying that young people "shouldn't live in fear"?

Does taking precautions to not be exposed mean living in fear? I don't see why you have to be anxious about it. Just don't do foolhardy things. Being exposed to a novel virus is a foolhardy thing to do.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:14:24 PM
Young healthy people aren't at significant risk, all the data shows this.

A young healthy person shouldn't be living in fear. Should they protect the vulnerable? Of course! but why are they living in fear?

Define significant risk? Many young and healthy have died and been hospitalized, a much greater amount than other contagious illnesses cause. And as @biobook has pointed out, we have no clue how this looks long term. Why is it irrational to be cautious when facing a virus whos long term effects we know NOTHING about? See Zika. This is not some pie in the sky war possibility. This is a real and tangible threat.

You can call it living in fear and negligible risk as I can call ignoring the threat dangerous and reckless. A more proper way of describing the two sides would be as more or less cautious.

Unless, of course, youre just trying to disparage anyone who disagrees with you. You wouldnt do that after calling out others for doing that, would you? Your head isnt stuck somewhere, is it?

These numbers are very significant. They may very well have had prior anxiety issues, but the notion that there are no significant mental health issues due to the lockdown is ridiculous.
Who denied there are mental heath issues due to the lockdown? But as Ive said before, how do you know what mental health issues would arise of greater death and devastation? How do you know the anxiety is not a direct result of the hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations (and deaths)? Those people have families and friends, you know.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 11:14:42 PM
@avromie7

Why do you keep on saying that young people "shouldn't live in fear"?

Does taking precautions to not be exposed mean living in fear? I don't see why you have to be anxious about it. Just don't do foolhardy things. Being exposed to a novel virus is a foolhardy thing to do.
I don't think that he is advocating throwing away all precautions.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:14:58 PM
Are the numbers of people young enough to have harried children who were victims low enough for you to consider that am acceptable risk? How about the older people who caught it even with precautions?
Preexisting conditions were a big factor, I was just told by a family member of one of the people we were all giving money for that he had a known heart condition and the hospital put a DNR on him without the family's consent. I think such people as well as the elderly should be very careful.
@avromie7

Why do you keep on saying that young people "shouldn't live in fear"?

Does taking precautions to not be exposed mean living in fear? I don't see why you have to be anxious about it. Just don't do foolhardy things. Being exposed to a novel virus is a foolhardy thing to do.
The discussion started about someone who was very cautious and is now afraid to go out to daven with a minyan. That person is living in fear, I'm sure there are many other people who are taking precautions and not living in fear.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on May 25, 2020, 11:15:06 PM
Are the numbers of people young enough to have harried children who were victims low enough for you to consider that am acceptable risk? How about the older people who caught it even with precautions?
I don't make risk assessments for other people when it comes to their lives.
I am only pointing out that I believe this virus is alive and well and therefore not going to be eradicated anytime soon.
So whether or not there has been a confirmed case i would treat it as if there is one, and my CBA would be accordingly.   
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 11:16:29 PM
Define significant risk? Many young and healthy have died and been hospitalized, a much greater amount than other contagious illnesses cause. And as @biobook has pointed out, we have no clue how this looks long term. Why is it irrational to be cautious when facing a virus whos long term effects we know NOTHING about? See Zika. This is not some pie in the sky war possibility. This is a real and tangible threat.

You can call it living in fear and negligible risk as I can call ignoring the threat dangerous and reckless. A more proper way of describing the two sides would be as more or less cautious.

Unless, of course, youre just trying to disparage anyone who disagrees with you. You wouldnt do that after calling out others for doing that, would you? Your head isnt stuck somewhere, is it?
Who denied there are mental heath issues due to the lockdown? But as Ive said before, how do you know what mental health issues would arise of greater death and devastation? How do you know the anxiety is not a direct result of the hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations (and deaths)? Those people have families and friends, you know.
Not only family and friends. The anxiety suffered when we were hearing about how the funeral homes were overloaded is no small thing.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on May 25, 2020, 11:18:27 PM
@avromie7

Why do you keep on saying that young people "shouldn't live in fear"?

Does taking precautions to not be exposed mean living in fear? I don't see why you have to be anxious about it. Just don't do foolhardy things. Being exposed to a novel virus is a foolhardy thing to do.

Many people seem to conflate caution with fear. That people who are being cautious and safe/conservative are somehow living in abject terror.

I wonder if the 2 sides of this ongoing divide are actually just 2 sides of the personality spectrum. Cautious on one side, and the risk taking on the other.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on May 25, 2020, 11:20:29 PM
I don't think that he is advocating throwing away all precautions.
Right. I don't think I said he was. But I think that being careful and not going to an indoors minyan at this point is a valid move and we should not be casting such an individual as anxious.
The discussion started about someone who was very cautious and is now afraid to go out to daven with a minyan. That person is living in fear, I'm sure there are many other people who are taking precautions and not living in fear.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2020, 11:21:39 PM
Many people seem to conflate caution with fear. That people who are being cautious and safe/conservative are somehow living in abject terror.

I wonder if the 2 sides of this ongoing divide are actually just 2 sides of the personality spectrum. Cautious on one side, and the risk taking on the other.
Sounds like a good topic for a new thread. Go for it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:26:08 PM
Define significant risk? Many young and healthy have died and been hospitalized, a much greater amount than other contagious illnesses cause. And as @biobook has pointed out, we have no clue how this looks long term. Why is it irrational to be cautious when facing a virus whos long term effects we know NOTHING about? See Zika. This is not some pie in the sky war possibility. This is a real and tangible threat.

You can call it living in fear and negligible risk as I can call ignoring the threat dangerous and reckless. A more proper way of describing the two sides would be as more or less cautious.

Unless, of course, youre just trying to disparage anyone who disagrees with you. You wouldnt do that after calling out others for doing that, would you? Your head isnt stuck somewhere, is it?
Who denied there are mental heath issues due to the lockdown? But as Ive said before, how do you know what mental health issues would arise of greater death and devastation? How do you know the anxiety is not a direct result of the hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations (and deaths)? Those people have families and friends, you know.
You keep saying many young and healthy people have been hospitalized and died when it's simply not true. The overwhelming majority of young people who have been hospitalized have preexisting conditions, that means that those who don't have preexisting conditions shouldn't be living in fear of getting the virus.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:26:36 PM
Prescriptions for anti-anxiety increased by 900k, that's 9 for every death in the country. Antidepressants increased by 2.5M, or 25 for every death. Theres no way anywhere near that number is caused by people who lost loved ones.
I dont deny that its quite reasonable to assume that a continued lockdown is bad for mental health. But you dont know how many are due to deaths and hospitalizations of loved ones or the fear of that occurring to them. You certainly dont know what it would look like if we let hundreds of thousands more die.

I couldnt read the article so dont know what the numbers say. But itd be interesting to know how many prescribed were directly caused by friends and loved ones of hospitalized patients or deceased. Certainly youre aware that many people who suddenly lose a loved one are prescribed antidepressants and sleeping medication?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:28:32 PM
You keep saying many young and healthy people have been hospitalized and died when it's simply not true. The overwhelming majority of young people who have been hospitalized have preexisting conditions, that means that those who don't have preexisting conditions shouldn't be living in fear of getting the virus.
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.

preexisting conditions arent always known prior, and obesity is considered a significant comorbidity.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on May 25, 2020, 11:30:01 PM
You certainly dont know what it would look like if we let hundreds of thousands more die.
Who is letting?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:30:38 PM
I dont deny that its quite reasonable to assume that a continued lockdown is bad for mental health.
You were definitely denying it a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:31:02 PM
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.
Link?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: justaregularguy on May 25, 2020, 11:31:20 PM
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.

preexisting conditions arent always known prior, and obesity is considered a significant comorbidity.
maybe this is bc the older crowd have been hiding away much earlier than the rest of us so naturally got affected less? 🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 25, 2020, 11:31:39 PM
You keep saying many young and healthy people have been hospitalized and died when it's simply not true. The overwhelming majority of young people who have been hospitalized have preexisting conditions, that means that those who don't have preexisting conditions shouldn't be living in fear of getting the virus.
I think you are grossly underestimating how many people are considered to be having pre existing conditions.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:31:53 PM
You were definitely denying it a few weeks ago.
{citation needed}
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 25, 2020, 11:32:16 PM
maybe this is bc the older crowd have been hiding away much earlier than the rest of us so naturally got affected less? 🤷‍♂️

I know older people who haven't gone out since Purim.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:33:21 PM
Link?
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_5.html
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yard sale on May 25, 2020, 11:38:20 PM
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why
No , if one frum person infected ten that would not at this point bring on that level of concern. Very different at this point. At the time that attorney tested positive Wuhan had just given us a glimpse of how virulent Covid was, and cases had started popping up around the globe despite containment efforts. It was a given to anyone closely following the global pattern that the frum community with its extreme exposure to each other on so many levels, amplified by Purim, would be hit hard.

At this point even if there was a flare up of ten people you are dealing with a frum community that was as about as exposed as it could be around purim. Identical exposure would hardly replicate the wave of infections that hit then, especially considering the precautions that the vulnerable, and to some degree even most of the young and healthy among us are taking.

If you would hear of a similarly exposed population being hit with a new wave despite all, and indications were that the frum community would likely be next, then absolutely I would advocate that immediate measures be taken.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on May 25, 2020, 11:39:47 PM
I know older people who haven't gone out since Purim.
+1
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:40:20 PM
The discussion started about someone who was very cautious and is now afraid to go out to daven with a minyan. That person is living in fear, I'm sure there are many other people who are taking precautions and not living in fear.
This isnt super relevant but the OP did not specify age or condition of the person. Yes, its reasonable to assume the person is not elderly or immune-compromised but there is a big range between a twenty something perfectly fit strong man in the prime of his health with zero health conditions and a 95 year old man with a weak heart and diabetes. What about a 37 year old overweight gentleman with a slight history of hypertension? Are they living in fear if they dont want to contract the virus?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 25, 2020, 11:43:41 PM
This isnt super relevant but the OP did not specify age or condition of the person. Yes, its reasonable to assume the person is not elderly or immune-compromised but there is a big range between a twenty something perfectly fit strong man in the prime of his health with zero health conditions and a 95 year old man with a weak heart and diabetes. What about a 37 year old overweight gentleman with a slight history of hypertension? Are they living in fear if they dont want to contract the virus?

I have relatives like that, and while I respect their concerns, the necessary accommodations we have to make are extremely frustrating.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:46:01 PM
I have relatives like that, and while I respect their concerns, the necessary accommodations we have to make are extremely frustrating.
Why do you need to make accommodations for them?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 25, 2020, 11:46:30 PM
{citation needed}
Sorry, I can't sit thru all your posts now.
What about a 37 year old overweight gentleman with a slight history of hypertension? Are they living in fear if they dont want to contract the virus?
This person has something to legitimately worry about, he should definitely speak to his dr. and rabbi before letting his guard down.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on May 25, 2020, 11:47:56 PM
Sounds like a good topic for a new thread. Go for it.
Done. https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116887 (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116887)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on May 25, 2020, 11:49:06 PM
I have relatives like that, and while I respect their concerns, the necessary accommodations we have to make are extremely frustrating.
It might help to stop for a minute and appreciate that you are not in their situation. idk.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 25, 2020, 11:49:44 PM
Why do you need to make accommodations for them?

I run errands for them, and everything needs to be doused in Clorox, I need to sanitize my hands every time I open the car door, etc.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on May 25, 2020, 11:50:13 PM
I think you are grossly underestimating how many people are considered to be having pre existing conditions.
Especially in our community, where fitness and health isn't a major priority (for the most part).
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 25, 2020, 11:50:38 PM
It might help to stop for a minute and appreciate that you are not in their situation. idk.

That's all fine and well, but they're freaking out a whole lot more than many other people I know who have common health issues.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:51:56 PM
Sorry, I can't sit thru all your posts now.
Dont blame you ;)

Tbh, you hurled an accusation so you should need to either find a post where I said that or take it back. PUOSU. Ill try to find what I said somewhere, but spoiler: I never said that. I merely argued that the effect of a non lockdown (where presumably many more people would be hospitalized and die) can have equally devastating mental health effects (exactly what Im saying now) and it is therefore a wash unless you can provide evidence that one would have more damage.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2020, 11:52:39 PM
At this point even if there was a flare up of ten people you are dealing with a frum community that was as about as exposed as it could be around purim.
Ignores that 5% of people are spreading 80% of infections and why so many here have just one spouse with IgG.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:52:50 PM
Sorry but the data you referenced does not support your statement
Reread what I wrote and what you posted :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on May 25, 2020, 11:57:54 PM


Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+.

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Afrages6 on May 26, 2020, 12:02:37 AM
This isnt super relevant but the OP did not specify age or condition of the person. Yes, its reasonable to assume the person is not elderly or immune-compromised but there is a big range between a twenty something perfectly fit strong man in the prime of his health with zero health conditions and a 95 year old man with a weak heart and diabetes. What about a 37 year old overweight gentleman with a slight history of hypertension? Are they living in fear if they dont want to contract the virus?
Regular healthy 26 year old who feels that getting exposed when he doesnt have too isnt a risk worth taking.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:06:13 AM

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story
Sorry? Did I misunderstand that chart or mislead?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on May 26, 2020, 12:07:09 AM
Sorry? Did I misunderstand that chart or mislead?
Looks like a combination of both
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:07:26 AM
Sorry, I can't sit thru all your posts now.
Here you go
Correct. But in the interim the case for mental health being a reason *not* to lockdown cannot be a contributing factor to override the case for lives as you can make an equally compelling case for mental health being a reason *to* lockdown. Should research prove that itll be worse under lockdown, then it can be used as a contributing rationale.
Now do I get to hurl an accusation about something you ostensibly said and the onus is on you to prove you *didnt* say it?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:09:24 AM
Looks like a combination of both
Please explain. I skimmed through the chart, thought I understood it, and clearly described that. Unless I misread it. If I did, please explain. I took a cursory look at it earlier and then quoted it. I can go back and double check soon.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:14:45 AM

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story
What are you talking about? I see this.

Total hospitalizations for the data set:
18-49: 5,356
50-64: 6,561
65+: 9,984

What did I misread?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:16:52 AM
What are you talking about? I see this.

Total hospitalizations for the data set:
18-49: 5,356
50-64: 6,561
65+: 9,984

What did I misread?
@yaakov35
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yuneeq on May 26, 2020, 12:16:57 AM
Are you saying tens of thousands of young healthy people died?

He didn't say that tens of thousands of young people died. But you got me curious, so here's a stat I found.
Approximately 4% of NYC deaths were under age 44. If extrapolated to the US, that's 4k deaths. If extrapolated to the world, that's 14k deaths.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:22:39 AM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115050.msg2261520#msg2261520

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story

My numbers have now been questioned by 2 posters so if anybody sees a discrepancy between what I said and what the chart says please enlighten me. Im starting to doubt myself but I dont see it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:26:54 AM
What are you talking about? I see this.

Total hospitalizations for the data set:
18-49: 5,356
50-64: 6,561
65+: 9,984

What did I misread?
Heres an article that says the same thing
https://contemporaryclinic.pharmacytimes.com/news-views/cdc-55-of-covid-19-hospitalized-patients-are-64-years-old-or-younger
Im starting to think that as usual, @yaakov35 is just being a troll.. I see @yungermanchik deleted his post as well

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story
Looks like a combination of both
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:32:18 AM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115050.msg2261520#msg2261520
My numbers have now been questioned by 2 posters so if anybody sees a discrepancy between what I said and what the chart says please enlighten me. Im starting to doubt myself but I dont see it.

I must be looking at different numbers, because my totals are different:

0-49: 4294
50-64: 5304
65+: 8538


Technically, there are more hospitalizations under 65 than over 65, so you were not inaccurate. However, if you adjust the dividing age between younger and older people to 50 years old, the numbers tell a very different story. The risk of hospitalization in younger people (under 50) is much, much less.

That said, I don't like any of those numbers, because a) they are low overall and I don't believe they are representative of the actual hospitalizations, and b) because younger people are more likely to ride out lesser symptoms at home, while older people are more likely to go at the first symptom. This doesn't show who was there with serious cases and who was held for observation for precautions and comorbidities.

ETA: I refreshed the page and it gave me different graphs. I'm not gonna update the numbers, but I think my points still stand.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Yard sale on May 26, 2020, 12:39:31 AM
Ignores that 5% of people are spreading 80% of infections and why so many here have just one spouse with IgG.
The frum community was exposed to so called superspreaders purim time as well. These individuals went to purim parties, minyanim, funerals, weddings etc. Most of the frum community had exposure to these individuals. Thousands of Lakewood residents spent hours in one beis medrash in BMG purim night, to give one example. Many contracted the illness, yet others in the same setting did not. Some perhaps just lucked out. Others may have had some form of prior immunity. That leaves a relatively  smaller potential population to spread the disease to. That impacts secondary spread etc.

Then you have to factor in the precautions that even the more cavalier frum people are taking which further limits the ability of the virus to spread. So taking a guy who has infected 10 others in a vulnerable population and then plunking him down in Lakewood today is going to produce a very different result that what took place purim.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on May 26, 2020, 12:41:59 AM
What are you talking about? I see this.

Total hospitalizations for the data set:
18-49: 5,356
50-64: 6,561
65+: 9,984

What did I misread?
18-64 is 54% of hospitalizions. 18-49 is 44% of the 18-64, therefore 18-49 is 24% of total hospitalizations. I didn't read numbers on the bottom so I was off....
By grouping it all together you came out with a misconstrued statement, which is very misleading
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yesitsme on May 26, 2020, 01:36:13 AM
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 02:52:17 AM
18-64 is 54% of hospitalizions. 18-49 is 44% of the 18-64, therefore 18-49 is 24% of total hospitalizations. I didn't read numbers on the bottom so I was off....
By grouping it all together you came out with a misconstrued statement, which is very misleading
Really now. Please point to the statement that was misleading or misconstrued. I was perfectly accurate in what I said, and linked to a chart that proved my point. This is what I said
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.
Now are you going to admit your mistake and take back your garbage accusation or are you going to continue doubling down?

This is the 3rd time in the last page that I was falsely accused. Talk about
You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. Way to spin a story

Methinks that says something about the underlying strength of certain peoples arguments.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 02:58:46 AM
The frum community was exposed to so called superspreaders purim time as well. These individuals went to purim parties, minyanim, funerals, weddings etc. Most of the frum community had exposure to these individuals. Thousands of Lakewood residents spent hours in one beis medrash in BMG purim night, to give one example. Many contracted the illness, yet others in the same setting did not. Some perhaps just lucked out. Others may have had some form of prior immunity. That leaves a relatively  smaller potential population to spread the disease to. That impacts secondary spread etc.

Then you have to factor in the precautions that even the more cavalier frum people are taking which further limits the ability of the virus to spread. So taking a guy who has infected 10 others in a vulnerable population and then plunking him down in Lakewood today is going to produce a very different result that what took place purim.
Key word: MAY. You cant extrapolate from a completely unproven theory that that leaves a relatively smaller potential population. People with antibodies, yes. Everyone else must be presumed vulnerable until you have strong reason to doubt that. No, the fact that they were exposed but not infected proves NOTHING, and people should stop insisting that it does, without a shred of science to back them up. Its unreal how many people Ive heard say with a straight face that because they were exposed and didnt catch it they must be immune.

I agree with the rest of your post. *because* we are still practicing social distancing to a large extent we should produce a very different result. That goes away if we loosen many/most of the restrictions, then we will be a lot closer to the typical vulnerable population. Certainly those with antibodies should help, and the question remains what percentage they are and how exactly the immunity works.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 03:02:27 AM
I must be looking at different numbers, because my totals are different:

0-49: 4294
50-64: 5304
65+: 8538


Technically, there are more hospitalizations under 65 than over 65, so you were not inaccurate. However, if you adjust the dividing age between younger and older people to 50 years old, the numbers tell a very different story. The risk of hospitalization in younger people (under 50) is much, much less.

That said, I don't like any of those numbers, because a) they are low overall and I don't believe they are representative of the actual hospitalizations, and b) because younger people are more likely to ride out lesser symptoms at home, while older people are more likely to go at the first symptom. This doesn't show who was there with serious cases and who was held for observation for precautions and comorbidities.

ETA: I refreshed the page and it gave me different graphs. I'm not gonna update the numbers, but I think my points still stand.
My point was that many many younger people contracted serious illness. If most will ride out their illness at home that just drives my point home further.. in no way was my statement misleading. I very clearly stated that. A very significant number of people 18-49 are being hospitalized. No, its not negligible. They make up a large percentage of total hospitalizations.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 10:51:48 AM
Looks like a combination of both
In summation: You misread the chart, misled, accused me of doing exactly that, and then refused to admit it when called out. Got it.

Crazy how every thread that anything to do with corona, just ends up with bashing and belittling people. Really sad
@yaakov35

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 11:40:51 AM
Please point to the statement that was misleading
This
Technically, there are more hospitalizations under 65 than over 65, so you were not inaccurate. However, if you adjust the dividing age between younger and older people to 50 years old, the numbers tell a very different story. The risk of hospitalization in younger people (under 50) is much, much less.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yungermanchik on May 26, 2020, 11:44:07 AM
In summation: You misread the chart, misled, accused me of doing exactly that, and then refused to admit it when called out. Got it.
Nobody misread the chart. We misread your post because we didn't imagine that you would create a super-demographic to try to spin the story your way. We thought you were working with the demographics on that website.

The point remains that, that 16% (65+) of the population had over 40% of the hospitalizations.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 26, 2020, 11:45:24 AM
The point remains that that 16% (65+) of the population had over 40% of the hospitalizations.
Based on typical reporting that if only affects older people, that's a surprisingly low percentage of hospitalizations.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 11:52:09 AM
Based on typical reporting that if only affects older people, that's a surprisingly low percentage of hospitalizations.
Once you move the dividing age down to 50 it shows a much different story.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 26, 2020, 11:54:19 AM
Once you move the dividing age down to 50 it shows a much different story.
Sure, but who considers people in their 50s "old"
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 11:55:20 AM
My point was that many many younger people contracted serious illness. If most will ride out their illness at home that just drives my point home further.. in no way was my statement misleading. I very clearly stated that. A very significant number of people 18-49 are being hospitalized. No, its not negligible. They make up a large percentage of total hospitalizations.

I agree and have been pretty vocal about it. I just think that in the name of intellectual honesty, we should maybe be clearer about what defines older and younger, even if the stats look better by using the 65+ cut-off. The narrative of 50+ being higher risk is pretty much the standard now.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 11:55:41 AM
Sure, but who considers people in their 50s "old"
As far as policy goes it depends not on labels but on risks for each age group.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:02:19 PM
Sure, but who considers people in their 50s "old"

Not "old" per se, but I'm definitely less surprised to hear about medical issues in people in their 50's versus people in their 40's, especially when you look at the comorbidities that seem to make this virus more lethal.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 26, 2020, 12:05:04 PM
He didn't say that tens of thousands of young people died. But you got me curious, so here's a stat I found.
Approximately 4% of NYC deaths were under age 44. If extrapolated to the US, that's 4k deaths. If extrapolated to the world, that's 14k deaths.
How many of those 4k in the US or 14k worldwide were "healthy" and how many had preexisting conditions?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 12:06:25 PM
Not "old" per se, but I'm definitely less surprised to hear about medical issues in people in their 50's versus people in their 40's, especially when you look at the comorbidities that seem to make this virus more lethal.
Is there anywhere that the numbers are broken up more finely than these?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:06:34 PM
Not "old" per se, but I'm definitely less surprised to hear about medical issues in people in their 50's versus people in their 40's, especially when you look at the comorbidities that seem to make this virus more lethal.
But 24% of total hospitalizations were people in their 40s or lower!! There were almost as many 18-49 as 50-64!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 26, 2020, 12:08:46 PM
But 24% of total hospitalizations were people in their 40s or lower!! There were almost as many 18-49 as 50-64!
There are 3x as many people in the 18-49 age bracket as the 50-64 age bracket.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 12:10:21 PM
There are 3x as many people in the 18-49 age bracket as the 50-64 age bracket.
Also they were much more likely to be less careful to avoid catching it and the number of infections was likely much higher than even that.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:10:34 PM
Nobody misread the chart. We misread your post because we didn't imagine that you would create a super-demographic to try to spin the story your way. We thought you were working with the demographics on that website.

The point remains that, that 16% (65+) of the population had over 40% of the hospitalizations.
I noticed you deleted your post. Do you regret that now?

I literally was making the point that its *also* a threat for younger people. NOBODY ever insinuated that its as dangerous for young people as it is for old, or even close. My point was VERY CLEARLY that the risk to younger people is not negligible and my wording was VERY PRECISE. Youre doubling down on something you obviously already regretted. Sure you want to go there?

There was not one word in my post that was misleading or in accurate in the slightest (that Im aware of). If you disagree, please point to it. Again, PUOSU.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:11:47 PM
There are 3x as many people in the 18-49 age bracket as the 50-64 age bracket.
Also they were much more likely to be less careful to avoid catching it and the number of infections was likely much higher than even that.
Both good points. Both dont contradict my premise. The risk to the young is NOT negligible.

ETA: @avromie7 Is it safe to say you were surprised to see that and are trying to find a reason for why it might not be true?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on May 26, 2020, 12:12:54 PM
Both good points. Both dont contradict my premise. The risk to the young is NOT negligible.
I will speak only for myself, but I have been very clear that I don't consider the risk to be negligible for them.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:14:55 PM
But 24% of total hospitalizations were people in their 40s or lower!! There were almost as many 18-49 as 50-64!

One is a group covering 30 years, and the other 15 years. And there are still more hospitalizations in the 50-64 than 18-49. The point is, if you are over 50, you are higher risk. If you are under 50, you are by no means "safe" or "immune" and should definitely be taking precautions to make sure you don't get sick. Under 50 still accounts for about a quarter of all hospitalizations, and I think we can all agree that under 50's are less likely to go to the hospital unless things have gotten bad or that have other underlying issues.

My point is, setting the line at 50 does not take away from the severity of the situation for the people you're trying to convince to take this seriously. Setting it over 50 (at 65) may make them disregard the severity.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
The point remains that, that 16% (65+) of the population had over 40% of the hospitalizations.
The point remains, some of the chart was green and some was red.

Who was making or debating that point?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:15:40 PM
Is there anywhere that the numbers are broken up more finely than these?

Not that I've seen, but I haven't looked very hard.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:17:11 PM
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.

preexisting conditions arent always known prior, and obesity is considered a significant comorbidity.
This was my original post. If anybody feels there was anything misleading feel free to call it out factually.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: flyingace on May 26, 2020, 12:18:33 PM
Anyone have any updates on yeshivas for older guys operating in NY or NJ?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 26, 2020, 12:18:44 PM
Both good points. Both dont contradict my premise. The risk to the young is NOT negligible.
You keep missing the very important word "healthy". Of course there are young people who are at higher risk, but young healthy people are not at significant risk.
Quote
ETA: @avromie7 Is it safe to say you were surprised to see that and are trying to find a reason for why it might not be true?
I'm not sure why it's relevant, I saw the numbers you posted and said something looks wrong, so I looked again and realized you were intentionally using misleading numbers.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:19:08 PM
How many of those 4k in the US or 14k worldwide were "healthy" and how many had preexisting conditions?

Purely anecdotal, but I know of a bunch of serious hospitalizations (incubations) that were in their 30's with no known pre-existing conditions. I also know that I am not alone here with that knowledge.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:19:14 PM
One is a group covering 30 years, and the other 15 years. And there are still more hospitalizations in the 50-64 than 18-49. The point is, if you are over 50, you are higher risk. If you are under 50, you are by no means "safe" or "immune" and should definitely be taking precautions to make sure you don't get sick. Under 50 still accounts for about a quarter of all hospitalizations, and I think we can all agree that under 50's are less likely to go to the hospital unless things have gotten bad or that have other underlying issues.

My point is, setting the line at 50 does not take away from the severity of the situation for the people you're trying to convince to take this seriously. Setting it over 50 (at 65) may make them disregard the severity.
There may have been other/better arguments to be made to convince people of the dangers but that is what I wrote and there was nothing misleading about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:20:47 PM
I'm not sure why it's relevant, I saw the numbers you posted and said something looks wrong, so I looked again and realized you were intentionally using misleading numbers.
There you go again. Misleading how? Do I need to find an old post of mine again that shows you that I wasnt misleading? In what way did the chart not show EXACTLY what I posited in my post?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:22:38 PM
This
Whats your point? Thats not what I said.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 12:22:44 PM
There may have been other/better arguments to be made to convince people of the dangers but that is what I wrote and there was nothing misleading about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts.

I never disputed what you said. I don't think it was factually incorrect or misleading. I only think that it is being dismissed by some because of where the line was set.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:23:14 PM
You keep missing the very important word "healthy". Of course there are young people who are at higher risk, but young healthy people are not at significant risk.
Do I keep missing it, or did you miss the other half of my post????
preexisting conditions arent always known prior, and obesity is considered a significant comorbidity.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on May 26, 2020, 12:26:08 PM
I never disputed what you said. I don't think it was factually incorrect or misleading. I only think that it is being dismissed by some because of where the line was set.
Which is why I also made sure to note that a large percentage of those were under 50
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 26, 2020, 12:46:37 PM
There you go again. Misleading how? Do I need to find an old post of mine again that shows you that I wasnt misleading? In what way did the chart not show EXACTLY what I posited in my post?
Your post makes it sound like hospitalizations at least as prevelant in young people as old people.
Do I keep missing it, or did you miss the other half of my post????
Even if you include people who didn't know in the "healthy" group, they'll still consist of a very small percentage.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Something Fishy on May 26, 2020, 01:27:25 PM
So my daughter's school is beginning 1-hour sessions tomorrow in some girl's house, half the class at a time. I can't risk getting covid, even if I'm healthy.

I'm extremely torn.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on May 26, 2020, 01:28:31 PM
So my daughter's school is beginning 1-hour sessions tomorrow in some girl's house, half the class at a time. I can't risk getting covid, even if I'm healthy.

I'm extremely torn.
If you can't risk it then why are you torn?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Something Fishy on May 26, 2020, 01:30:36 PM
If you can't risk it then why are you torn?

Because there are plenty good reasons why she should go, and there are indications that children don't transmit.

On the other hand, nobody knows nothing and the risk might still be there.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on May 26, 2020, 01:36:06 PM
Because there are plenty good reasons why she should go, and there are indications that children don't transmit.

On the other hand, nobody knows nothing and the risk might still be there.
Discuss it with your Dr and/or Rabbi. Whichever way they tell you to go you'll know you did the correct thing.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on May 26, 2020, 02:12:24 PM
So my daughter's school is beginning 1-hour sessions tomorrow in some girl's house, half the class at a time. I can't risk getting covid, even if I'm healthy.

I'm extremely torn.
Didn't you go to shul this past shabbos; isn't that also a similar risk?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Something Fishy on May 26, 2020, 02:13:25 PM
Didn't you go to shul this past shabbos; isn't that also a similar risk?

I socially distanced in shul.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: biobook on May 26, 2020, 04:50:35 PM
So my daughter's school is beginning 1-hour sessions tomorrow in some girl's house, half the class at a time. I can't risk getting covid, even if I'm healthy.

I'm extremely torn.
I'm sure you won't be the only parent to wait longer, if that's what you decide.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on May 26, 2020, 04:58:09 PM
I'm sure you won't be the only parent to wait longer, if that's what you decide.
I wish you were right...
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 26, 2020, 05:17:16 PM
I'm sure you won't be the only parent to wait longer, if that's what you decide.

All kids in my 3 children's class are attending similar group classes. Including a Dr's children
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on May 26, 2020, 05:23:05 PM
All kids in my 3 children's class are attending similar group classes. Including a Dr's children

Hence the conflict. Not everyone is so careful, which increases his risk by X amount, which is isn't sure if he's comfortable taking.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on May 26, 2020, 05:25:16 PM
Hence the conflict. Not everyone is so careful, which increases his risk by X amount, which is isn't sure if he's comfortable taking.

Didn't disagree with your comment

I was just pointing out that relying on not everybody attending may not be accurate. For my understanding he's in Monsey And it's probably a chasidush cheder.

Fully understand that the kids want to go And he probably doesn't want them to fall back academically
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on May 26, 2020, 05:32:52 PM
While 770 isn't open (the dining room is currently providing grab and go meals to the bochurim that are here), the bochurim that stayed around are making their own sedorim. I just heard of 3 bochurim that just boarded a flight back here from EY, so I expect quite a few that left to start trickling back.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on May 26, 2020, 06:22:20 PM
This is going to be quite ironic, that the small number of families which aren't going to be attending school are the ones following mainstream medical advice. The anti-vaxxer reversal.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: shwarmabob on May 26, 2020, 06:26:41 PM
While 770 isn't open (the dining room is currently providing grab and go meals to the bochurim that are here), the bochurim that stayed around are making their own sedorim. I just heard of 3 bochurim that just boarded a flight back here from EY, so I expect quite a few that left to start trickling back.
is 1414 dorm open yet? where are they staying? Are there shiurim? or chavrusas in local shuls? Reb Yoel?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on May 26, 2020, 07:26:55 PM
is 1414 dorm open yet? where are they staying? Are there shiurim? or chavrusas in local shuls? Reb Yoel?
1414 is closed. 749 is open. Apparently one (or more) of the larger rooms was converted to a בית המדרש. In addition there are apartments.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 02, 2020, 10:09:55 PM
1414 is closed. 749 is open. Apparently one (or more) of the larger rooms was converted to a בית המדרש. In addition there are apartments.

Update:

20 bochurim are allowed in 770

https://anash.org/central-chabad-yeshiva-reopens-with-limited-participants/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 02, 2020, 10:12:55 PM
Your post makes it sound like hospitalizations at least as prevelant in young people as old people. Even if you include people who didn't know in the "healthy" group, they'll still consist of a very small percentage.
My post makes nothing sound like anything. I quoted a statistic, any further dissection of why is theory and speculation. Accusing me of being misleading is disingenuous and wrong. There was nothing misleading about my post.

You are speculating. Perhaps bring hard numbers as I have.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 03, 2020, 07:15:18 AM
Update:

20 bochurim are allowed in 770

https://anash.org/central-chabad-yeshiva-reopens-with-limited-participants/

Constant trickle of Israeli bochurim returning to 770 from EY.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Joeymc on June 03, 2020, 09:12:15 AM
Constant trickle of Israeli bochurim returning to 770 from EY.
Is the border open to foreigners with student visas?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 03, 2020, 09:34:51 AM
Is the border open to foreigners with student visas?

They are coming in. I don't know if they are coming under student visas like they originally did, or under tourist visas, but every day a few more arrive.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Joeymc on June 03, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
They are coming in. I don't know if they are coming under student visas like they originally did, or under tourist visas, but every day a few more arrive.
But definitely not us passport holders, right?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 03, 2020, 09:41:31 AM
The US has no Corona related restrictions on people traveling from Israel, but Israeli citizens always need a visa to enter the US.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 03, 2020, 09:44:08 AM
But definitely not us passport holders, right?

A few are. But most (or many) are not.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on June 03, 2020, 10:42:03 AM
Update:

20 bochurim are allowed in 770

https://anash.org/central-chabad-yeshiva-reopens-with-limited-participants/

How are they choosing which 20? Who is controlling entry and how? Doesnt 770 (not 784/788) have its own address? Cant they allow another 10 there? Minyan only the Rebbes room?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 10:51:00 AM
My post makes nothing sound like anything. I quoted a statistic, any further dissection of why is theory and speculation. Accusing me of being misleading is disingenuous and wrong. There was nothing misleading about my post.

You are speculating. Perhaps bring hard numbers as I have.
Multiple people misread and misunderstood your post, that's why they responded that it was wrong until you got upset at them that they misunderstood your convoluted post. Yes, it was misleading.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 01:46:16 PM
Multiple people misread the chart you linked to which said exactly what you posted, which is why one of them subsequently deleted his post and the other (very reluctantly) admitted he was mistaken.
FTFY
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 01:48:16 PM
Multiple people misread and misunderstood your post, that's why they responded that it was wrong until you got upset at them that they misunderstood your convoluted post. Yes, it was misleading.
Cognitive dissonance will only get one so far in life. I posted facts which proved your assertion false. You answered with speculation and accusations.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 01:54:04 PM
Nobody misread the chart. We misread your post because we didn't imagine that you would create a super-demographic to try to spin the story your way. We thought you were working with the demographics on that website.

The point remains that, that 16% (65+) of the population had over 40% of the hospitalizations.
@yungermanchik Youre lying. You misread the chart and made a stupid mistake, which is why you deleted your post (which everyone can still see where I quoted you). Its fine to make a mistake, were all human. I called you out but youre not man enough to apologize and admit you were wrong, so you deleted the post and now youre trying to double down. I was working with exactly the demographics on that website, and thats exactly what I said.

Its ok to make mistakes, but the right thing to do now would be to admit you were wrong and move on instead of trying to create new avenues to attack.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 02:04:28 PM
Instead of attacking everyone for misreading your misleading post, you should probably stop while you're not so far behind and admit your post was misleading.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:06:09 PM
Instead of attacking everyone for misreading your misleading post, you should probably stop while you're not so far behind and admit your post was misleading.
As I have shown, one deleted his post and the other admitted he misread the chart. Youve yet to show how it was misleading. Heres another chance: Please show what was misleading about my post. Go for it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 02:09:29 PM
As I have shown, one deleted his post and the other admitted he misread the chart. Youve yet to show how it was misleading. Heres another chance: Please show what was misleading about my post. Go for it.
The fact that many people misunderstood is very telling. I'm done with this petty argument.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yungermanchik on June 03, 2020, 02:13:38 PM
@yungermanchik Youre lying. You misread the chart and made a stupid mistake, which is why you deleted your post (which everyone can still see where I quoted you). Its fine to make a mistake, were all human. I called you out but youre not man enough to apologize and admit you were wrong, so you deleted the post and now youre trying to double down. I was working with exactly the demographics on that website, and thats exactly what I said.

Its ok to make mistakes, but the right thing to do now would be to admit you were wrong and move on instead of trying to create new avenues to attack.
The reason I deleted my post is because I
Reread what I wrote and what you posted :)
And I saw that is wasn't were you were talking about. But, I later realized that there was a reason that I assumed it was
Quote
We misread your post because we didn't imagine that you would create a super-demographic to try to spin the story your way. We thought you were working with the demographics on that website.
Now look at the chart that I posted (note that I only checked the boxes for 18-49 and 65+) and see if I misread your post or the chart:
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 03, 2020, 02:14:02 PM
How are they choosing which 20? Who is controlling entry and how? Doesnt 770 (not 784/788) have its own address? Cant they allow another 10 there? Minyan only the Rebbes room?

IDK how they are choosing the 20, I can only guess that it's a combination of merit and luck. Can't tell you which individual is in charge of the names, I'm assuming that Kratz/Vail/Shuchat are the one's controlling entry.

20 is because the Kingston women's section has a Kingston Avenue address, so 10 there and 10 in 770.

I have no clue about the Rebbe's room.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:22:16 PM
The fact that many people misunderstood is very telling.
Yes, its telling. Can you spell d*i*s*s*o*n*a*n*c*e?

This isnt the first time in this thread that you have falsely accused me. I have proven the first time you did it false, despite your cop-out. Naturally I didnt get an acknowledgement or an apology from you but that was expected. I think its ok to want to defend myself when youre falsely accusing me of something once more.

I'm done with this petty argument.
Ah, youre done now?

You should probably stop running up to and tripping old widows. Its unfair and mean, and can cause serious repercussions to them. So unbecoming.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:27:51 PM
The reason I deleted my post is because I And I saw that is wasn't were you were talking about. But, I later realized that there was a reason that I assumed it wasNow look at the chart that I posted (note that I only checked the boxes for 18-49 and 65+) and see if I misread your post or the chart:
For the purpose of intellectual honesty, please acknowledge that the chart you originally posted included the 50-64 bracket as well. You can revise history all you want but thats not even the chart you originally posted.

I didnt create a super-demographic. Thats you putting a spin on it once more. I very clearly delineated 18-49 and 18-64, which are the actual lines that the CDC provided. I did not choose them or decide them, they were judged relevant by the website.

So your argument that somehow anything was misleading was that I didnt specifically choose lines that *dont* prove the point I was trying to bring out? Were you following the conversation?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yungermanchik on June 03, 2020, 02:31:04 PM
For the purpose of intellectual honesty, please acknowledge that the chart you originally posted included the 50-64 bracket as well. You can revise history all you want but thats not even the chart you originally posted.

That is a complete and total lie. I only have this one chart downloaded and that is the one I posted back then. So, instead of accusing me of lying, why don't you admit that it is YOU who is being dishonest here.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:31:24 PM
The reason I deleted my post is because I And I saw that is wasn't were you were talking about. But, I later realized that there was a reason that I assumed it wasNow look at the chart that I posted (note that I only checked the boxes for 18-49 and 65+) and see if I misread your post or the chart:
Lets use just the chart you posted. Do you not see that 18-49 make up about half of the hospitalizations that 65+ do? How does that resonate with the argument that the risk to the young is negligible, and the only people affected are old people? How in any way does that not prove my point exactly? Many many young people are hospitalized. You can come up with theories to help explain it but it doesnt take away from the point I was making,
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
That is a complete and total lie. I only have this one chart downloaded and that is the one I posted back then. So, instead of accusing me of lying, why don't you admit that it is YOU who is being dishonest here.
Its possible that I am thinking of the chart @yaakov35 posted, which does show that. I apologize if thats true. I didnt screenshot it so there is no way for me to know if its true.

Now, will you answer the point? And I accused you of lying about something else. Was I wrong?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yungermanchik on June 03, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Lets go back to your original post
Per the CDC, there have been more COVID patients hospitalized between 18-64 than 65+. Almost half of those are 49 or younger.

preexisting conditions arent always known prior, and obesity is considered a significant comorbidity.
I admit, I speed-read and when I saw 18- , I assumed it was one demographic(ie 18-49) not 2 lumped together (18-49 + 50-64)
That is all that happened. My assumption is that you wrote it that way as a ploy to spin it your way because I think many others also speed-read that way. If that was not your intent, my apologies.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:42:21 PM
Lets go back to your original post I admit, I speed-read and when I saw 18- , I assumed it was one demographic(ie 18-49) not 2 lumped together (18-49 + 50-64)
That is all that happened. My assumption is that you wrote it that way as a ploy to spin it your way because I think many others also speed-read that way. If that was not your intent, my apologies.
Ill take what I can get :)

I really dont understand how it can have been interpreted like that, when I clearly delineated further along in the sentence, but I guess Ill have to take your word on it
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 03, 2020, 02:49:59 PM
My first grader started an hour and a half of in person class yesterday (hosted in a house). I happened to pass by today and heard his Rebbi instructing the kids (upon conclusion) to close the Chumoshim, and whoever wants to may also kiss the Chumash, it's optional.  :D
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 02:52:47 PM
My first grader started an hour and a half of in person class yesterday (hosted in a house). I happened to pass by today and heard his Rebbi instructing the kids (upon conclusion) to close the Chumoshim, and whoever wants to may also kiss the Chumash, it's optional.  :D
This is starting soon in Lakewood as well, though I think more outdoors. Are there any specific safety measures they are taking, or just that its done in a house instead of school?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 03:18:27 PM
Yes, its telling. Can you spell d*i*s*s*o*n*a*n*c*e?

This isnt the first time in this thread that you have falsely accused me. I have proven the first time you did it false, despite your cop-out. Naturally I didnt get an acknowledgement or an apology from you but that was expected. I think its ok to want to defend myself when youre falsely accusing me of something once more.
Ah, youre done now?

You should probably stop running up to and tripping old widows. Its unfair and mean, and can cause serious repercussions to them. So unbecoming.
I'm not going to continue having a pissing match, but I will defend myself.

You have helped me understand the gemara "kol haposel bemumo posel". I have never falsely accused you, but you have the nerve to say I falsely accused you twice! Oh, remember cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:23:04 PM
I'm not going to continue having a pissing match, but I will defend myself.

You have helped me understand the gemara "kol haposel bemumo posel". I have never falsely accused you, but you have the nerve to say I falsely accused you twice! Oh, remember cognitive dissonance.
So what would you call this? Truthfully accusing me?
You were definitely denying it a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 03:28:49 PM
So what would you call this? Truthfully accusing me?
Umm yes.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:30:16 PM
Or this?
Instead of attacking everyone for misreading your misleading post, you should probably stop while you're not so far behind and admit your post was misleading.
Remember, the other 2 people who went down that path both admitted they made a mistake
I admit, I speed-read and when I saw 18- , I assumed it was one demographic(ie 18-49) not 2 lumped together (18-49 + 50-64)
That is all that happened. My assumption is that you wrote it that way as a ploy to spin it your way because I think many others also speed-read that way. If that was not your intent, my apologies.

18-64 is 54% of hospitalizions. 18-49 is 44% of the 18-64, therefore 18-49 is 24% of total hospitalizations. I didn't read numbers on the bottom so I was off....
By grouping it all together you came out with a misconstrued statement, which is very misleading

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on June 03, 2020, 03:30:40 PM
Guys, cut it out. Go loot some stores. Will be more productive than this.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:33:09 PM
Umm yes.
Yeah, so Ive already proved your accusation was false. Talk about Kol haposel bemumo posul. Again, if you believe Ive ever said that (spoiler: I havent) please provide proof.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:33:35 PM
Guys, cut it out. Go loot some stores. Will be more productive than this.
Were in Lakewood and we dont loot on Shabbos >:(
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on June 03, 2020, 03:34:19 PM

You almost had me there.... talk about a play on words. Just shows how biased people can be, wild. 18-49 was on average 30% of the 40% of total hospitalizations 18-64 group. So that's roughly 12% of total hospitalizations this isn't even talking about deaths or people put on ventilators. Way to spin a story
@S209 I didn't delete....
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:35:08 PM
@S209 I didn't delete....
Whoops. Ok, let me go find it and edit that post.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on June 03, 2020, 03:36:01 PM
18-64 is 54% of hospitalizions. 18-49 is 44% of the 18-64, therefore 18-49 is 24% of total hospitalizations. I didn't read numbers on the bottom so I was off....
By grouping it all together you came out with a misconstrued statement, which is very misleading
And here was me saying I made a mistake
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 03, 2020, 03:36:21 PM
Yeah, so Ive already proved your accusation was false. Talk about haposel bemumo pasul. Again, if you believe Ive ever said that (spoiler: I havent) please provide proof.
You did. You completely downplayed mental illness and said something along the lines of there is no proof of any mental illness caused by lockdown. Maybe one day I'll have time to sift thru all your posts, but not today.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on June 03, 2020, 03:37:23 PM
Whoops. Ok, let me go find it and edit that post.
I really hope this doesn't effect our disagreements and we can still argue properly
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:38:34 PM
You did. You completely downplayed mental illness and said something along the lines of there is no proof of any mental illness caused by lockdown. Maybe one day I'll have time to sift thru all your posts, but not today.
Once again, YOU ARE LYING. I never ever said that. I said you have no proof that the mental illness from lockdown would be more severe than the mental illness caused from the extra deaths we are presumably preventing. I even provided a quote of mine from April where I said that.

Now will you admit you falsely accused me or stick to your guns?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 03:38:52 PM
I really hope this doesn't effect our disagreements and we can still argue properly
No no I still disagree with you strongly dont worry
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: username on June 03, 2020, 03:40:47 PM

Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: aygart on June 03, 2020, 04:21:50 PM
Guys, please. Arguments like this are only supposed to be between me and @CountValentine
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 03, 2020, 10:45:46 PM
This is starting soon in Lakewood as well, though I think more outdoors. Are there any specific safety measures they are taking, or just that its done in a house instead of school?
I'd think that 10-20 kids in one house is a considerably smaller risk pool then 1000 kids in a school building
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 03, 2020, 10:48:04 PM
I'd think that 10-20 kids in one house is a considerably smaller risk pool then 1000 kids in a school building
It sure is
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 03, 2020, 10:49:56 PM
IDK how they are choosing the 20, I can only guess that it's a combination of merit and luck. Can't tell you which individual is in charge of the names, I'm assuming that Kratz/Vail/Shuchat are the one's controlling entry.

20 is because the Kingston women's section has a Kingston Avenue address, so 10 there and 10 in 770.

I have no clue about the Rebbe's room.
I believe it was reported that the 20 students are chosen by hanhala
(as opposed to the 10 davening by kratz et al)

and I don't think he was asking about the rebbe's room. he was probably asking why can't another 10 bochurim learn in the small zal (at alternate times to the 10 people davening in the rebbe's room)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 04, 2020, 04:51:46 AM
Bochurim were notified that whoever wishes to enter 1414 (main dormitory of 770) needs to provide medical documentation that they were COVID-19 positive and recovered.

If I understand correctly, with this proof they can currently gain access to the building to retrieve or store personal items. Names are being gathered so that reopening will be possible when permitted, under permitting conditions set by authorities.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 04, 2020, 09:22:56 AM
Bochurim were notified that whoever wishes to enter 1414 (main dormitory of 770) needs to provide medical documentation that they were COVID-19 positive and recovered.

If I understand correctly, with this proof they can currently gain access to the building to retrieve or store personal items. Names are being gathered so that reopening will be possible when permitted, under permitting conditions set by authorities.

Here's the letter:

https://anash.org/israeli-bochurim-prepare-to-return-to-770/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on June 04, 2020, 11:21:56 AM
Bochurim were notified that whoever wishes to enter 1414 (main dormitory of 770) needs to provide medical documentation that they were COVID-19 positive and recovered.

If I understand correctly, with this proof they can currently gain access to the building to retrieve or store personal items. Names are being gathered so that reopening will be possible when permitted, under permitting conditions set by authorities.
DP, I know of young healthy people who were careful from the beginning, and have not contracted Covid19, who are now regretting it, because they feel they will be limited in the near future.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 04, 2020, 11:27:01 AM
DP, I know of young healthy people who were careful from the beginning, and have not contracted Covid19, who are now regretting it, because they feel they will be limited in the near future.
See the thread I just started.

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=117127.msg2268042#msg2268042
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on June 07, 2020, 05:45:01 PM
See the thread I just started.

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=117127.msg2268042#msg2268042
Thank you.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on June 10, 2020, 10:25:03 AM
Can I predict something, with the BLM slowing down We are going to see lots of news reports on open Orthodox Schools
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: EliJelly on June 10, 2020, 11:16:30 AM
Can I predict something, with the BLM slowing down We are going to see lots of news reports on open Orthodox Schools
Next level hypocrites
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on June 10, 2020, 11:19:57 AM
Can I predict something, with the BLM slowing down We are going to see lots of news reports on open Orthodox Schools

?s=20
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 10, 2020, 11:23:41 AM
Can I predict something, with the BLM slowing down We are going to see lots of news reports on open Orthodox Schools
Where are most Open Orthodox schools located? Would be nice to see some coverage on them ;)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 10, 2020, 11:54:45 AM
Where are most Open Orthodox schools located? Would be nice to see some coverage on them ;)
-1
I hope there is no coverage of them.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 10, 2020, 11:55:28 AM
-1
I hope there is no coverage of them.
Why?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:58:08 AM
Where are most Open Orthodox schools located? Would be nice to see some coverage on them ;)
Lol
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 10, 2020, 12:02:04 PM
Why?
Why would you want that in the news?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 10, 2020, 01:41:10 PM
Telshe Chicago was planning on reopening in a camp, but had to postpone plans after 8 boys tested positive for Covid.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 10, 2020, 01:56:15 PM
Telshe Chicago was planning on reopening in a camp, but had to postpone plans after 8 boys tested positive for Covid.
Wow. How do you know?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 10, 2020, 02:07:23 PM
Wow. How do you know?

Heard from a parent.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on June 10, 2020, 04:00:01 PM
Why?
exposure=closure
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on June 10, 2020, 04:43:43 PM
Telshe Chicago was planning on reopening in a camp, but had to postpone plans after 8 boys tested positive for Covid.
At least 5 of these boys have antibodies. Most of them had symptoms months ago, so safe assumption these are dead cells.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 10, 2020, 04:50:09 PM
exposure=closure
Why would an Open Orthodox school close just because they were exposed, and why is that bad?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 10, 2020, 04:57:57 PM
Why would an Open Orthodox school close just because they were exposed, and why is that bad?
They'll close because the cops come in with guns and force them to close. It's bad because then the kids won't be able to learn properly.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 10, 2020, 04:58:49 PM
They'll close because the cops come in with guns and force them to close. It's bad because then the kids won't be able to learn properly.
Its illegal to teach Open Orthodoxy?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on June 10, 2020, 05:15:46 PM
@S209 give it up, it's too subtle; grammar isn't really a strong suit around these parts.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on June 10, 2020, 05:55:22 PM
Its illegal to teach Open Orthodoxy?
on DDF it unfortunately feels that way
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on June 10, 2020, 06:30:52 PM
on DDF it unfortunately feels that way
Lol!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: EliJelly on June 10, 2020, 07:35:38 PM
on DDF it unfortunately feels that way
My friend, Google "Open Orthodoxy"..

..or better not
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yossig on June 10, 2020, 11:09:02 PM
Lol!
Theres a big world out there with many different types of people from all walks of life.
The disrespectful (nicely put) attitude towards certain Jewish communities different then yourself has become a pattern here.

They are blamed here for all problems Jews are suffering, from causing antisemitism to spreading the virus.
Those are the people that dont use there common sense.
Those are the ones that are ok killing there parents.
Those are also the same people that there un-education in medical treatment caused them to put out these false accusations on hospitals.
And so on and on and on,

Lesson for life: If you have an issue understanding different people and cultures, then you know its time you get out more, learn, and you might find out that even though theyre not like you, they are good people making your world and worthy of your praises.

And Im done here :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yelped on June 11, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
@yossig

I think you didn't understand what I meant and what the last few posts are all about.  :)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Shmobaum on June 11, 2020, 12:26:49 AM
Open Orthodoxy is a reform movement and heretics.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mgarfin on June 11, 2020, 11:26:10 AM
@S209 give it up, it's too subtle; grammar isn't really a strong suit around these parts.

If only I would have attended an Open Orthodox School I would have never sparked this conversation::)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on June 11, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
If only I would have attended an Open Orthodox School I would have never sparked this conversation::)
It's unfortunate that this seems to be a binary choice :(
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: mmgfarb on June 11, 2020, 11:37:28 AM


Theres a big world out there with many different types of people from all walks of life.
The disrespectful (nicely put) attitude towards certain Jewish communities different then yourself has become a pattern here.

They are blamed here for all problems Jews are suffering, from causing antisemitism to spreading the virus.
Those are the people that dont use there common sense.
Those are the ones that are ok killing there parents.
Those are also the same people that there un-education in medical treatment caused them to put out these false accusations on hospitals.
And so on and on and on,

Lesson for life: If you have an issue understanding different people and cultures, then you know its time you get out more, learn, and you might find out that even though theyre not like you, they are good people making your world and worthy of your praises.

And Im done here :)

*than
*their
*their
*their
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 01:55:05 PM
In my son's class (held in my house) there was an אריינפירעניש today.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: avromie7 on June 17, 2020, 01:58:29 PM
In my son's class (held in my house) there was an אריינפירעניש today.
English?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: EliJelly on June 17, 2020, 02:06:46 PM
In my son's class (held in my house) there was an אריינפירעניש today.
:( What happened??
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: etech0 on June 17, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
English?
Not a problem
(https://i.imgur.com/0OUGh7t.png)
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: AsherO on June 19, 2020, 08:36:08 AM
English?

The ritual of bringing a male child to Cheder for the first time, traditionally done wrapped in a Tallis. Amongst other things, the first verse of Vayikra is taught to the child, the child licks honey off the Alef Beis letters, candies are thrown on the child while he is wrapped in a Talis and he is told the candies are from Malach Michoel etc. etc.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Ergel on June 19, 2020, 09:26:43 AM
In my son's class (held in my house) there was an אריינפירעניש today.
This is why rules that are unrealistic and don't match reality are more harmful than good. Wouldn't this setup be infinitely better in a school or some other controlled setting rather than moving from small house to house environment?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 19, 2020, 09:28:04 AM
This is why rules that are unrealistic and don't match reality are more harmful than good. Wouldn't this setup be infinitely better in a school or some other controlled setting rather than moving from small house to house environment?
Not from a super-spreader perspective.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2020, 10:46:02 AM
This is why rules that are unrealistic and don't match reality are more harmful than good. Wouldn't this setup be infinitely better in a school or some other controlled setting rather than moving from small house to house environment?

Here you are making assumptions again.

My living room, where my son's class is learning, is a lot more spacious and ventilated than any classroom. Why would a school environment be better? (Though I wouldn't care one way or another).

Not from a super-spreader perspective.

Talking of which, there was what would probably be called a "super spreader event" in my house on Purim. That same yeshiva held a farbrengen in my house again last week (albeit with a slightly smaller crowd). How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe? It took less than 2 weeks after Purim for almost everyone to get sick to one degree or another.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: S209 on June 19, 2020, 10:48:16 AM
Here you are making assumptions again.

My living room, where my son's class is learning, is a lot more spacious and ventilated than any classroom. Why would a school environment be better? (Though I wouldn't care one way or another).

Talking of which, there was what would probably be called a "super spreader event" in my house on Purim. That same yeshiva held a farbrengen in my house again last week (albeit with a slightly smaller crowd). How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe? It took less than 2 weeks after Purim for almost everyone to get sick to one degree or another.
Wouldnt you first need to introduce a highly infectious person into a similar sized crowd to see what would happen?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 19, 2020, 10:57:25 AM
How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe?
The first step would be offering an explanation as to how those who haven't gotten Covid yet, are protected from it? So far your argument as I see it is that you don't understand it either, but even though everything we know about this virus strongly suggests they are at risk, since you haven't seen a spike in the last few weeks, it must be over even if you don't understand why, and can offer no reasoning why it may not surge again soon.

It will take years before there is sufficient evidence that asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid carriers don't have long term health impacts ch"v.

In fact the data about relapses would suggest those who already contact Covid, like yourself, should be even more careful with their health (eat healthy, exercise cautiously, get vitamin D exposure, etc).



Talking of which, there was what would probably be called a "super spreader event" in my house on Purim. That same yeshiva held a farbrengen in my house again last week (albeit with a slightly smaller crowd).
Reinforces my theory that the reason we aren't noticing a spike in NY is because those who aren't being careful now weren't being careful early on & got it already, and those who were careful early on & didn't get it yet are still being careful.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on June 21, 2020, 01:28:26 AM
In fact the data about relapses would suggest those who already contact Covid, like yourself, should be even more careful with their health (eat healthy, exercise cautiously, get vitamin D exposure, etc).
Source?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 03:58:44 AM
Source?
It's been well established... Here's the first Google result for 'Covid relapse'

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/11/coronavirus-patients-discharged-from-hospitals-report-long-struggle-some-relapse-who-says.html
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Proisrael on June 21, 2020, 05:50:30 AM
It's been well established... Here's the first Google result for 'Covid relapse'

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/11/coronavirus-patients-discharged-from-hospitals-report-long-struggle-some-relapse-who-says.html

If its so established then why have we not seen any articles since early May? There was 1 article from Vox and thats it.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 06:06:06 AM
If its so established then why have we not seen any articles since early May? There was 1 article from Vox and thats it.
There are countless articles. Here is one from June 14

https://medium.com/@shinjieyong/the-covid-19-virus-can-last-for-months-why-efb8314b2b98

Quote
There have been many cases in which discharged patients returned to the hospital with milder symptoms and positive Covid-19 status, which I detailed here. Current science agrees that it is more likely for Covid-19 to reactivate than reinfect. Reactivation means the same initial virus is replicating again (after lying dormant for a while), whereas reinfection means a new, different source of infection. For example, a Switzerland study concludes: Reinfection appears unlikely since Covid-19 infection rates were low in the region of our hospital and the trend of new infections declining at the time the patients were treated.


More shocking than arguing about a simple Google search results is that people here who spend considerable time talking about the virus don't know it's elementary details
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Ergel on June 21, 2020, 07:44:56 AM
There are countless articles. Here is one from June 14

https://medium.com/@shinjieyong/the-covid-19-virus-can-last-for-months-why-efb8314b2b98


More shocking than arguing about a simple Google search results is that people here who spend considerable time talking about the virus don't know it's elementary details
But I see with my own eyes that... who cares about data/experts or anything else. God gave me two eyes for a reason!!
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 21, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe?
The argument made by those better equipped is that high percentage of antibodies /assumed immunity combined with no new sources of infection.

What happens later this week, when 10s (or more) susceptible out of towners with your attitude decide it's OK to ignore the plea of rabbonim and doctors not to visit? Do we risk introducing new infection source to the remaining susceptible population?
Just in time for 770s superspread grand reopening
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on June 21, 2020, 10:54:50 AM
The argument made by those better equipped is that high percentage of antibodies /assumed immunity combined with no new sources of infection.

What happens later this week, when 10s (or more) susceptible out of towners with your attitude decide it's OK to ignore the plea of rabbonim and doctors not to visit? Do we risk introducing new infection source to the remaining susceptible population?
Just in time for 770s superspread grand reopening

10's? Much more than that. Hundreds have already come in for weddings.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 21, 2020, 10:57:58 AM
And I'm serious about the attitude. I get that masks are more uncomfortable for @ExGingi than for the rest of us (or is the discomfort in needing to cede some self assurance)
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Euclid on June 21, 2020, 11:22:16 AM
If its so established then why have we not seen any articles since early May? There was 1 article from Vox and thats it.
An article last night from your side of the world: https://www.timesofisrael.com/recovered-covid-19-patients-suffer-major-ongoing-physical-cognitive-problems/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 11:26:19 AM
And I'm serious about the attitude. I get that masks are more uncomfortable for @ExGingi than for the rest of us (or is the discomfort in needing to cede some self assurance)
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave

There is absolutely no excuse or reasonable explanation for you or anyone else to be heckled out of a farbrengen for wearing a mask (is there any legitimate reason to heckled out of a farbrengen, other than disruptive behavior?).

1414 set strict guidelines for re-admission. There's a list of 162 names posted on the door who are currently allowed in. While some of the requirements for re-admission are draconian (having a prior positive COVID-19 test), at least there's some reason.

I have been saying for weeks (if not months) that people who had symptoms and recovered (and now with antibody testing, add to that a positive antibody test) should be given a bracelet and allowed full integration. Anyone that doesn't fall into that category should follow whatever medical guidance he or she chooses to follow. IMHO it's the lack of such sensible action that leads to the dismissive attitude of guidelines and rules issued.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on June 21, 2020, 11:38:03 AM
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave

This, 1000 times this. This has been bothering me for a little while now, and I've been trying to find a good way to say it without sounding hypocritical.

I know I've posted a lot on the DDF Coronavirus board, to the point where people more or less know what I'm going to say when they see my name pop up. I've used some strong language at times, and I've been called out for using rhetoric that may have been shaming or guilt-laying, so I'm about to type this, I know I may be guilty of setting a double standard. I beg you to ignore the messenger in this case and just take the message at face value.

Please, please don't shame someone into lowering the safety standards they've taken upon themselves. Unfortunately, it has become extremely prevalent, and @gozalim's experience is far from the exception. I've had friends reach out privately to reassure themselves that they are not the only ones still not going to a maskless minyan or kiddush club. I've seen precautions abandoned by very high-risk individuals because of peer pressure. I've seen spouses made to feel uncomfortable for supporting their partner's desire to be more stringent than their community. I've seen rabbis pressured to lower standards in communities, causing people to put themselves in situations where they are taking risks they aren't comfortable with in order to avoid being cut off or missing out. The language used may not even be malicious. If someone hears the same "joke" about their standards a few too many times, they become uncomfortable exhibiting those standards in public. This leads to them cutting themselves off from otherwise beneficial interactions, or dropping the standards just to make the comments go away. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, please don't discourage others from trying to be as safe as possible.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 11:42:01 AM
The first step would be offering an explanation as to how those who haven't gotten Covid yet, are protected from it? So far your argument as I see it is that you don't understand it either, but even though everything we know about this virus strongly suggests they are at risk, since you haven't seen a spike in the last few weeks, it must be over even if you don't understand why, and can offer no reasoning why it may not surge again soon.
Interesting interpretation of what I've been saying.

While I believe that those that haven't gotten COVID-19 yet are more protected in a place like Crown Heights, Williamsburg and Boro Park, as a large portion of the population already had it and are not spreading it (go back to the early explanations and videos about herd immunity), I think they should definitely be more cautious (especially if they don't think that they have been previously extensively exposed around Purim time).

It will take years before there is sufficient evidence that asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid carriers don't have long term health impacts ch"v.
First thing that comes to mind when I read that is the Gemara in Sota 13a:
עד דאתי נפתלי מארעא דמצרים, יהא אבי אבא מוטל בבזיון?
What exactly are you proposing until we get the years of (what you consider) sufficient evidence you are seeking? Are you proposing the same kind of approach to vaccines?

In fact the data about relapses would suggest those who already contact Covid, like yourself, should be even more careful with their health (eat healthy, exercise cautiously, get vitamin D exposure, etc).
Sources?

Reinforces my theory that the reason we aren't noticing a spike in NY is because those who aren't being careful now weren't being careful early on & got it already, and those who were careful early on & didn't get it yet are still being careful.

Not sure how your theory gets reinforced. I was careful early on, and still got it, and I'm not careful now (other than if there's someone around that hasn't had it).
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 11:49:03 AM
I'm ashamed in myself that I'm bored enough to keep arguing but

How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe?

I think they should definitely be more cautious (especially if they don't think that they have been previously extensively exposed around Purim time).
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 12:08:10 PM
Wouldnt you first need to introduce a highly infectious person into a similar sized crowd to see what would happen?

So is it a superspreader person or superspreader even (or both) that is the key component? How would one identify a superspreader person?
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 21, 2020, 12:09:26 PM
Looks like 770 will be demanding masks for reopening.
Though choice for @ExGingi
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: yaakov35 on June 21, 2020, 12:12:02 PM
So is it a superspreader person or superspreader even (or both) that is the key component? How would one identify a superspreader person?
Extra long beard
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 12:14:59 PM
Looks like 770 will be demanding masks for reopening.
Though choice for @ExGingi

Notice just went out that 770 will reopen as of Monday from 6am to 10pm for up to 250 people and masks will be required.

Not a tough choice for me at all. I will be back in 770 on a daily basis. If it's something I need to wear that frequently, I'll probably figure out something more usable.

If masks are required so that it doesn't get shut down by authorities, then they will keep on requiring it.  Though my guess is that enforcement will be lax. Other than Shabbos I'm sure no-pone will be checking for occupancy by no more than 250. On Shabbos I'm not sure what they will do, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's no counting.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 21, 2020, 12:16:04 PM
And I'm not even talking about the silent-shaming/dirty looks/questioning 2 hours before that. Just the outright yelling/cursing/heckling that said what everyone else was thinking
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 12:18:42 PM
And I'm not even talking about the silent-shaming/dirty looks/questioning 2 hours before that. Just the outright yelling/cursing/heckling that said what everyone else was thinking

Are you sure? Or is it a case of ונהי בעינינו כחגבים and therefore וכן היינו בעיניהם?

I see no justification for that. Yes, people wearing masks are the exception rather than the rule in the community. I would guess most get asked in surprise if they didn't have any symptoms. But their own mask wearing is respected, as well as more mask compliance around if indeed a person that hasn't had symptoms is present.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: gozalim on June 21, 2020, 12:36:51 PM
Yes, people wearing masks are the exception rather than the rule in the community. I would guess most get asked in surprise if they didn't have any symptoms. But their own mask wearing is respected, as well as more mask compliance around if indeed a person that hasn't had symptoms is present.
That was 2 weeks ago for me.
I'm no grasshopper, but let's forget the silent stuff. Let's stick with the 3 comments in as many minutes that were unambiguous.
Yes your generation are more respectful. Your kids generation, in the other hand, are more self assured than you, and more black and white (and all they hear from their parents is "אוי ס'איז שווער צו זיין א איד מציל נפשות")
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 21, 2020, 01:37:17 PM
Yes your generation are more respectful. Your kids generation, in the other hand, are more self assured than you, and more black and white (and all they hear from their parents is "אוי ס'איז שווער צו זיין א איד מציל נפשות")

Maybe a significant portion of my kids' generation, but BH the schools my kids attend teach  (and to the best of my ability the attitude I try to breed at home) is one of respect.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 11:20:47 AM
Notice just went out that 770 will reopen as of Monday from 6am to 10pm for up to 250 people and masks will be required.

That lasted long...
https://collive.com/770-opens-to-joyous-singing-and-dancing/
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: ExGingi on June 22, 2020, 11:37:36 AM
Notice just went out that 770 will reopen as of Monday from 6am to 10pm for up to 250 people and masks will be required.

Not a tough choice for me at all. I will be back in 770 on a daily basis. If it's something I need to wear that frequently, I'll probably figure out something more usable.

If masks are required so that it doesn't get shut down by authorities, then they will keep on requiring it.  Though my guess is that enforcement will be lax. Other than Shabbos I'm sure no-pone will be checking for occupancy by no more than 250. On Shabbos I'm not sure what they will do, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's no counting.

My son texted me this morning that they're not counting people in 770. I told him that I was never expecting it to happen, so he replied that they were counting until 8am...

Upon entering 770, I was handed the ultimate COVID-19 protection. No, that that stupid mask people think might protect anyone, but a shot of Smirnoff from a reused cup. Just in case my IgG antibodies weren't sufficient, I gladly took the cup and said L'Chaim before gulping it down. Davening is just so much more  meaningful after a L'Chaim.
Title: Re: yeshivas that are open
Post by: Kobe bryent on June 22, 2020, 11:44:22 AM
Noticed the school buses now say "Day Care Transportation."