Post by: metsgiantsfan on April 07, 2020, 02:16:13 PM
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2020, 02:42:16 PM
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 07, 2020, 03:00:07 PM
Post by: good sam on April 07, 2020, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: metsgiantsfan on April 07, 2020, 03:43:02 PM
Doubtful
Its going to be a long summer for many
Post by: Boruch Parnes on April 07, 2020, 03:44:45 PM
Post by: hvaces42 on April 07, 2020, 04:15:34 PM
Post by: metsgiantsfan on April 07, 2020, 04:38:38 PM
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 08, 2020, 07:42:53 AM
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
Post by: jj1000 on April 08, 2020, 08:06:39 AM
1. It will be behind us by then.Just going to address 3 because the first 2 you have no idea for sure. But number 3 is certainly not true. No deliveries or guests come to camp? Have you been to a camp before?
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
Post by: Lurker on April 08, 2020, 08:11:38 AM
1. It will be behind us by then.
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
Which camp do you know of has the insurance or medical capabilities to risk an outbreak?
Post by: Lurker on April 08, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
Which camp do you know of has the insurance or medical capabilities to risk an outbreak?
Aside from this, what makes anyone think the schools won't be pushing summer school to make up missed days? How will they move kids up a year without having met minimum educational requirements?
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 08, 2020, 08:16:26 AM
Just going to address 3 because the first 2 you have no idea for sure. But number 3 is certainly not true. No deliveries or guests come to camp? Have you been to a camp before?Yes I have, and for some time running a camp behind the scenes.
1. The people making the deliveries have zero to minimum contact with people on campus.
2. For the minimum contact, there are rules that can be enacted & enforced.
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 08, 2020, 08:18:28 AM
Which camp do you know of has the insurance or medical capabilities to risk an outbreak?Ani Ma'amin B'Emuna Shelaima in the Rinbono Shel Olam that this and the Galus will end.
Post by: Lurker on April 08, 2020, 08:38:02 AM
Ani Ma'amin B'Emuna Shelaima in the Rinbono Shel Olam that this and the Galus will end.
So you don't believe there will be camp... got it.
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 08, 2020, 08:48:44 AM
So you don't believe there will be camp... got it.Just because the Galus will end, it doesn't mean life as we know it ends. Look at the (I believe it's) Rambam
Post by: zale on April 12, 2020, 12:55:25 AM
Will camps be cancelled this year? Will people be going to bungalow colonies?
Noboby knows for sure. Would be nice if someone who directs a camp would chime in here on what is going on behind the scenes.
I heard that Gan Israel Montreal, one of largest Lubavitch camps formally notified parents that they will not be opening. Canada might be more stringent than the U.S.
In general there are many unknowns at this point, to the extent where it's impossible to make preparations for camp without risking large sums of money.
As others have mentioned, schools may consider running through the summer. Even if elementary schools don't, yeshivos might want bochurim to make up for lost time and not allow them to staff the summer camps. High school students may need to take state regents in June-August. (NYS cancelled regents, not sure about others)
We may be looking at a hybrid school/day-camp situation for elementary schools if we are out of the Covid danger by summer.
As for bungalow colonies, if schools are running, bungalow colonies are not happening. This is aside from the fact that the already fiercely anti-Semitic Sullivan County will fight tooth and nail to not allow them to open this year.
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 01:01:55 AM
Yes I have, and for some time running a camp behind the scenes.What about contact with others who do come in contact?
1. The people making the deliveries have zero to minimum contact with people on campus.
2. For the minimum contact, there are rules that can be enacted & enforced.
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 01:13:57 AM
What about contact with others who do come in contact?
The only people who would be allowed to come onto campus from the outside is deliveries. In previous years they would have contact with the staff accepting the deliveries, but this can be eliminated by only allowing them to drop off the goods and sending the invoice via email. Yes deliveroes will have to be checked (when it's safe to) to male sure everything that was ordered was delivered and the company will have to honor any mistakes they made in the order (usually you would check it while receiving the goods while the truck is still there).
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 12, 2020, 01:45:20 AM
1. It will be behind us by then.1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
2. The summer won't kill the virus. We know this for a fact because it's ravaging in places where it is summer.
3. Like the cruise ships.
Post by: S209 on April 12, 2020, 02:45:01 AM
1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?1. This
2. The summer won't kill the virus. We know this for a fact because it's ravaging in places where it is summer.
3. Like the cruise ships.
2. This
3. This
I’m not saying it’s a certainty that camps won’t be opening but it’s certainly far from likely that they will
Post by: moko on April 12, 2020, 05:06:41 AM
Post by: Shmobaum on April 12, 2020, 09:29:04 AM
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 09:31:12 AM
1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?1. Because God runs this world
2. The summer won't kill the virus. We know this for a fact because it's ravaging in places where it is summer.
3. Like the cruise ships.
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Post by: Shmobaum on April 12, 2020, 09:33:53 AM
1. Because God runs this worldWe all know that my friend. I believe the people responding are coming from a practical and realistic point of view using the data and general feel that’s out there. There’s nothing wrong with that.
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Post by: avromie7 on April 12, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
Post by: Shmobaum on April 12, 2020, 09:45:16 AM
Something is going to have to open first, IMO camps would probably be high on the list because they can keep out anyone above whatever age (35, 40, 50, or 60?) who didn't test positive for COVID/antibodies, even if it means the director can't come. There will definitely have to be changes, no trips, no guests, etc.And I thought people only lie about their age when it comes to shidduchim...
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 09:47:25 AM
We all know that my friend. I believe the people responding are coming from a practical and realistic point of view using the data and general feel that’s out there. There’s nothing wrong with that.Don't mean to be a preacher or sound ignorant, but the situation- on a psychological basis- is as bad as we make it. The ones who come out of this victorious are those whose Emunah & Bittachon didn't remain stagnant, rather grew while doing what they can to 'Stop the Spread'
Post by: mochjas on April 12, 2020, 09:48:51 AM
1. Because God runs this worldwhat does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Post by: yitzgar on April 12, 2020, 09:49:25 AM
Don't mean to be a preacher or sound ignorant, but the situation- on a psychological basis- is as bad as we make it. The ones who come out of this victorious are those whose Emunah & Bittachon didn't remain stagnant, rather grew while doing what they can to 'Stop the Spread'What does this have to do with being realistic when deciding whether make plans?
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 09:52:05 AM
what does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 09:57:01 AM
What does this have to do with being realistic when deciding whether make plans?A decision to go to a Bungalow Colony or Camp this summer you it should have been already. Making backup plans, that's up to you.
Post by: mochjas on April 12, 2020, 10:01:38 AM
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'again nothing to do with anything
Post by: AsherO on April 12, 2020, 10:03:59 AM
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
[citation missing]
Post by: RewardsAddict on April 12, 2020, 10:04:13 AM
Post by: mochjas on April 12, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
Post by: herb on April 12, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
I was so close to giving a deposit for camp (day camp) before this got out of hand. So happy I waitedim sure they would have returned to you
Post by: aygart on April 12, 2020, 11:16:22 AM
1. Because God runs this worldBut why are you so confident that his will is for camps to be open?
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Post by: tzifanya54 on April 12, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
im sure they would have returned to youNot so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.
Post by: ElectricCPR on April 12, 2020, 11:20:48 AM
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.There is one camp that sent out a letter. Hamaivin Yovin
Post by: herb on April 12, 2020, 11:36:02 AM
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.ive heard of a few camps that sent back the deposits
Post by: S209 on April 12, 2020, 12:05:11 PM
im sure they would have returned to you
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.
Who says they need to return a deposit, if this is a makas medina? There is another thread about tuition so I won’t go into that here but let’s just say the Yeshivos, at least at this point, have plenty to go on when cashing those checks.
Post by: mochjas on April 12, 2020, 12:41:30 PM
im sure they would have returned to youits much easier to not give $ then to get it back
Post by: JMHO on April 12, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
ive heard of a few camps that sent back the depositsWhich?
Post by: jose34 on April 12, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
Will seminaries in E"Y be open next year ( September 2020)?
Post by: S209 on April 12, 2020, 02:08:34 PM
Another but similar thing I was wondering, should be a different thread but I'll add it here:There is another thread
Will seminaries in E"Y be open next year ( September 2020)?
Post by: Cholentfresser on April 12, 2020, 02:59:33 PM
I heard that Gan Israel Montreal, one of largest Lubavitch camps formally notified parents that they will not be opening.Any source for that? From their website it looks like it's on (so far).
Post by: zale on April 12, 2020, 03:03:15 PM
Any source for that? From their website it looks like it's on (so far).Relative of mine who was registered was called by the camp and told they are not opening. Don’t know if that’s limited to his section of camp or the whole camp.
Post by: Cholentfresser on April 12, 2020, 03:08:35 PM
Relative of mine who was registered was called by the camp and told they are not opening. Don’t know if that’s limited to his section of camp or the whole camp.Wow, okay then.
Post by: Yammer on April 12, 2020, 03:59:14 PM
1. Because God runs this world
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
what does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??
+10000000
It's good to know that have someone with inside information...
Any info about when/what to buy in the market?
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
And he camps are a go? How about schools opening? Any update on that?
Post by: zale on April 12, 2020, 04:29:58 PM
Wow, okay then.Just checked with them. They received an email that is now being rumored as inauthentic. So I take that back.
Post by: zale on April 12, 2020, 04:35:24 PM
Noboby knows for sure. Would be nice if someone who directs a camp would chime in here on what is going on behind the scenes.
I heard that Gan Israel Montreal, one of largest Lubavitch camps formally notified parents that they will not be opening. Canada might be more stringent than the U.S.
In general there are many unknowns at this point, to the extent where it's impossible to make preparations for camp without risking large sums of money.
As others have mentioned, schools may consider running through the summer. Even if elementary schools don't, yeshivos might want bochurim to make up for lost time and not allow them to staff the summer camps. High school students may need to take state regents in June-August. (NYS cancelled regents, not sure about others)
We may be looking at a hybrid school/day-camp situation for elementary schools if we are out of the Covid danger by summer.
As for bungalow colonies, if schools are running, bungalow colonies are not happening. This is aside from the fact that the already fiercely anti-Semitic Sullivan County will fight tooth and nail to not allow them to open this year.
Received an update that CGI Montreal not opening was inauthentic information.
Post by: Chapshnell on April 12, 2020, 10:15:42 PM
Post by: AsherO on April 12, 2020, 10:20:16 PM
...
How can they do that? Don’t the colonies and camps pay the same property tax as the year-round residents?
Post by: Shmobaum on April 13, 2020, 10:03:15 AM
How can they do that? Don’t the colonies and camps pay the same property tax as the year-round residents?Probably only camps are on the chopping block. Don’t think a colony receives a CO every year.
Post by: JMHO on April 13, 2020, 12:03:48 PM
Don’t think a colony receives a CO every year.Sure colonies are affected. Think day camps permits, pool permits and Shul permits.
Post by: Cholentfresser on April 13, 2020, 04:01:01 PM
Just checked with them. They received an email that is now being rumored as inauthentic. So I take that back.Thanks for the update.
Post by: Boruch Parnes on April 17, 2020, 03:12:38 PM
Post by: mochjas on April 17, 2020, 03:37:07 PM
I work for one of the big camps got a phone call today that we should start opening next weekopening what?
Post by: Boruch Parnes on April 17, 2020, 03:51:05 PM
opening what?the camp water etc
Post by: Joel on April 17, 2020, 04:24:36 PM
I work for one of the big camps got a phone call today that we should start opening next weekCan you pull permits to open the camp?
Post by: Boruch Parnes on April 17, 2020, 05:52:48 PM
Can you pull permits to open the camp?we only get CO when we pass inspection
Post by: zale on April 17, 2020, 06:04:43 PM
we only get CO when we pass inspection
Is this in Sullivan County?
Post by: coffeebean on April 19, 2020, 06:02:58 AM
Post by: moko on April 19, 2020, 06:42:58 AM
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
What happens when camp is over in middle of an outbreak?
Post by: AsherO on April 19, 2020, 06:53:06 AM
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
Without knowing herd immunity numbers, this is risky. Let’s say a camp with had 1k kids and only 10% are immune. One kid brings an infection with him to camp and it spreads slowly, keep in mind incubation period of 3-14 days. By the time the kids leave at the end of 1-2 months, they could send home 10 kids (or more) carrying an active infection out to a population that is still vulnerable.
Post by: zale on April 19, 2020, 09:03:32 AM
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?What about the bus drivers?
It’s possible that states will allow camps to open out of desperation. People’s psychological health is suddenly in the center of the conversation now.
However, it’s also possible that they will place certain restrictions, such as limits of 100 campers or so per camp, and no field trips. Would you open under such conditions?
Post by: Mo2 on April 19, 2020, 09:46:52 AM
Received an update that CGI Montreal not opening was inauthentic information.was this everyone's news source about them not opening from April 1st?
http://nwpedia.club/show/1201697/camp-gan-israel-montreal-will-not-open-this-year-do-to-the-coronavirus-65047
Post by: coffeebean on April 19, 2020, 10:17:01 AM
Without knowing herd immunity numbers, this is risky. Let’s say a camp with had 1k kids and only 10% are immune. One kid brings an infection with him to camp and it spreads slowly, keep in mind incubation period of 3-14 days. By the time the kids leave at the end of 1-2 months, they could send home 10 kids (or more) carrying an active infection out to a population that is still vulnerable.Didn't think of that, valid point.
Post by: AsherO on April 19, 2020, 01:15:44 PM
It’s possible that states will allow camps to open out of desperation. People’s psychological health is suddenly in the center of the conversation now.
I’ve seen the psychological toll mentioned, but is it really center of conversation?
Post by: fineguy on April 19, 2020, 02:16:27 PM
If camps do not end up opening they should refund the money.
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't pay camps to operate on Zoom.
If they do not operate in the usual manner, and refuse to refund, I will likely contest it with my credit card, halachically permitting.
Post by: Dan on April 19, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
halachically permitting.What does the contract say?
Post by: fineguy on April 19, 2020, 02:23:04 PM
What does the contract say?It was prior to Corona.
I simply signed up online. I don't remember the details - there may not have been any.
Note this was for day camp, not sleep away which may have more rigorous fine print.
Post by: ari3 on April 19, 2020, 02:23:23 PM
What does the contract say?Good point.
I don't think any of my children's camp contracts addressed what happens if camp doesn't open. (definitely didn't address trying to provide camp thru zoom).
Post by: fineguy on April 19, 2020, 02:26:12 PM
Good point.I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy.
I don't think any of my children's camp contracts addressed what happens if camp doesn't open. (definitely didn't address trying to provide camp thru zoom).
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along
Post by: ari3 on April 19, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
While this a nice argument in theory would you be willing to take responsibility for hundreds of children based on this? Before this all started many people said (including some doctors) that it doesn't affect young people so let's keep going and just make sure the old people stay isolated. Unfortunately we know what happened with that. While the theory has good points It's nice for DDF but practically camp is not going to happen unless the virus passes by then. (not to mention good luck trying to sell that to Sullivan County to get the permits).
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 02:40:54 PM
I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy.If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along
Post by: Yard sale on April 19, 2020, 02:46:38 PM
If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 02:48:59 PM
Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)That’s probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he won’t be able to be Motze them either.
Post by: Let3 on April 19, 2020, 03:23:54 PM
If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motzeAylor
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didn’t even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as I’ve heard) and haven’t lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 03:42:09 PM
AylorThey are taking a loss on the campus plus any deposits for trips, supplies etc. as well as maintenance and year round staff.
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didn’t even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as I’ve heard) and haven’t lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...
Besides, who says they need a loss to declare Makas Medina?
Post by: Yard sale on April 19, 2020, 07:06:38 PM
That’s probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he won’t be able to be Motze them either.
Is that so? I would think that would be tefisah shelo be reshus once it’s obvious there is an issue with opening
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 07:07:52 PM
Is that so? I would think that would be tefisah shelo be reshus once it’s obvious there is an issue with openingHow shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasn’t retracted his authorization
Post by: Yard sale on April 19, 2020, 08:03:22 PM
How shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasn’t retracted his authorization
Umdena that he doesn’t realize that his cc is still being charged/ headcheck is still being cashed. No one pays for nothing willingly.
Seem to recall one of The Rabbonim guidelines specifically addressed headchecks. I’ll try to find it later.
Post by: S209 on April 19, 2020, 08:08:39 PM
Umdena that he doesn’t realize that his cc is still being charged/ headcheck is still being cashed. No one pays for nothing willingly.They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.
Seem to recall one of The Rabbonim guidelines specifically addressed headchecks. I’ll try to find it later.
Again, the father certainly has a right to withdraw authorization to charge his card or cancel the checks, but if he does not withdraw permission, the camp would seemingly be fully within its’ rights to cash them assuming they honestly believe they will be opening.
Post by: Yard sale on April 19, 2020, 10:21:16 PM
They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.
Again, the father certainly has a right to withdraw authorization to charge his card or cancel the checks, but if he does not withdraw permission, the camp would seemingly be fully within its’ rights to cash them assuming they honestly believe they will be opening.
If they truly honestly believe they are opening, not just wishful thinking that’s a different story. There is obviously no umdina. Conversely, I would be surprised if a beis din would allow a camp to keep the deposit gratis in the event that they do open when the father is willing to send but withdrew his permission to cash the headchecks in the interim merely to protect his interest in this situation, not to be chozer...
Post by: yaakov35 on April 20, 2020, 10:48:31 PM
Post by: zale on April 20, 2020, 10:52:47 PM
Looks positivehttps://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/
I think we need to first know what the “precautions” are. Per the above article, if the rules make it impossible for the camps to function, it’s as good as closed.
Post by: Afrages6 on April 20, 2020, 11:25:13 PM
https://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp I’d imagine that social distancing wouldn’t apply.
I think we need to first know what the “precautions” are. Per the above article, if the rules make it impossible for the camps to function, it’s as good as closed.
Post by: ari3 on April 20, 2020, 11:39:58 PM
If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp I’d imagine that social distancing wouldn’t apply.It would be practically impossible to have camp with social distancing. Problem is if kids are asymptomatic it can slowly spread and they will come home with it.
Post by: Afrages6 on April 21, 2020, 12:37:50 AM
It would be practically impossible to have camp with social distancing. Problem is if kids are asymptomatic it can slowly spread and they will come home with it.So I’m assuming the hope is too test everyone before they come to camp, in two months I believe we will able to know much more clearly who does and doesn’t have the virus
Post by: Luvtotravel on April 21, 2020, 01:57:20 AM
So I’m assuming the hope is too test everyone before they come to camp, in two months I believe we will able to know much more clearly who does and doesn’t have the virusif the news regarding reinfection is true, how does that help us?
Post by: Afrages6 on April 21, 2020, 08:28:31 AM
if the news regarding reinfection is true, how does that help us?The news regarding reinfection is not yet significant and the prevalent medical theory is that you are immune to it for some period of time. But my point was more that if regular testing for the active virus could tell and guarantee that no one has the virus when they go into camp we could be at a point where it’s viable.
Post by: kaman on April 21, 2020, 08:42:18 AM
Looks positive
LOL, got a similar letter from my camp but they added "if there is no camp we will issue a full refund of monies paid" :) :) :)
Post by: Sammy82 on April 21, 2020, 08:46:19 AM
LOL, got a similar letter from my camp but they added "if there is no camp we will issue a full refund of monies paid" :) :) :)Which camp?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on April 21, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2020, 10:25:46 AM
Post by: Kobe Bryant on April 21, 2020, 10:28:09 AM
The Pesach programs also planned to open.
They planned to open Pre Covid , the camps plan to open with what is known.
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2020, 10:30:10 AM
What's the difference?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2020, 10:32:08 AM
At least one camp plans to open .I love the even better news. I was thinking a large discount or even free.
Post by: mercaz1 on April 21, 2020, 10:48:28 AM
Many were in denial long into Covid.
What's the difference?
if the camps are considered essential then they will be allowed to reopen on some level unlike the pesach programs which were not essential
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2020, 10:49:53 AM
At least we have our priorities straight.
Post by: kaman on April 21, 2020, 10:51:14 AM
if the camps are considered essential then they will be allowed to reopen on some level unlike the pesach programs which were not essential
"camps" are essential is day camp: sleepaway camps are a different ballgame IMO
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2020, 10:53:48 AM
So schools aren't essential, but camps are.I guess they are looking at camps the same as daycare.
At least we have our priorities straight.
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2020, 10:56:50 AM
I guess they are looking at camps the same as daycare.Also banned in many states.
Post by: Afrages6 on April 21, 2020, 11:01:17 AM
"camps" are essential is day camp: sleepaway camps are a different ballgame IMOWhy is day camp better then sleep away camp?
Post by: kaman on April 21, 2020, 12:10:48 PM
Why is day camp better then sleep away camp?
I would think one can be viewed as "essential" (day camp) vs. sleepaway camp is a luxury: it's a similar concept that day camps are deductible on FSA/childcare but sleepaway aren't.
Also, sleepaway camp would probably be viewed as impossible to control SD vs. day camp by gov't.
If you read the government in phase 2 they mentioned "camps"...
Post by: Afrages6 on April 21, 2020, 12:22:07 PM
I would think one can be viewed as "essential" (day camp) vs. sleepaway camp is a luxury: it's a similar concept that day camps are deductible on FSA/childcare but sleepaway aren't.I think that the sleep away camps are a much safer environment then kids going back and forth to school everyday
Also, sleepaway camp would probably be viewed as impossible to control SD vs. day camp by gov't.
If you read the government in phase 2 they mentioned "camps"...
Post by: aygart on April 22, 2020, 04:59:36 PM
ACA's Board Chair and President/CEO Update
April 15
Dear Friends,
This is a hard week for all of us.
But this is also the week when Lucia shared her fears with her counselor, John reconnected with the camp community of his childhood, Xavier played The Name Game, and Sonia stood up for herself in a Zoom campfire.
In a situation that feels out of control, camp offers comfort and a sense of belonging. Thank you for continuing to be a flashlight for so many during this dark time.
The Critical Question
As we find our way out of the darkness, the critical question for many of us has been “when should I make a decision about my camp strategy this summer?”
Indeed, helping you answer that question drives every choice the ACA will make for the foreseeable future.
The answer to that question is complex and evolving daily. We all recognize that we must put the safety of our campers and staff first, and that we need expert scientific guidance to help drive the decision-making process.
In short, our mission is to identify and offer the right information, tools, and resources to help you determine if and how camp can happen for you this year.
Awaiting CDC Guidance
Tracking CDC’s 2020 Camp Strategy
ACA has had the opportunity to connect with the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as they develop COVID-19 guidance for day and overnight camps for this summer. The CDC’s guidance will help state public health authorities and camp directors with their summer decisions, as well as utilize best practices in health management, community management, and camp operations.
Note Initial CDC Advice to Camps
The CDC advises camps to give themselves as much time as possible before making final decisions about the summer. That’s because you’ll need to use the upcoming CDC point of view in your decision-making process. Rest assured we will keep you closely informed about when the CDC will release their guidance.
Monitor Likely Variables for Camp
If you have time to wait to review the CDC guidance, expect that you’ll need to align with developments such as rapid virus testing, antibody testing, and changes in community spread.
The Way Forward
We are pleased to announce an alliance that will help all of us develop a path to move forward:
Creating an Expert-Backed Game Plan
ACA is engaging an independent team of public health experts, pediatricians, epidemiologists, and camp health experts to develop educational and operational resources for camps to assist them in adhering to CDC COVID-19 guidance. Expect to receive:
Best practices on how to be effective public health partners right now
Educational resources for day and overnight camps to use in planning for the summer, including health considerations around program, facilities, transportation, equipment, health centers, and critical supplies
Field Guides that summarize the ultimate release of CDC guidance
Taken together, the coming CDC guidance and educational resources will help you to make a knowledgeable, informed decision.
Early Signals for Camp in 2020
Evaluate Online Pivots Now
ACA recognizes the need for some camps to pivot to virtual camp programming for part or all of this summer. To support this, we have launched online virtual program resources for camps looking to provide safe, quality virtual programming this summer.
Considering Shortened or Virtual Seasons
Many camps are planning for shortened seasons. Some have very short time horizons; some serve medically vulnerable campers and staff who are at a heightened risk right now, and some are located on school campuses that cannot host programs this year. If you need to reinvent your program, we are here to help.
Every camp is unique, and ACA is here to support you as you work through the individual considerations of your programs in your decision-making.
Take the time to carefully consider your options, utilize our resources, and make the best decisions you can as stewards of your camp communities.
Whether virtual or in person, children will need camp this summer more than ever in whatever forms we can provide it.
Together, we will each find a way to be good public health partners and care appropriately for those who need us the most. ACA is here for you, as we plan for this summer and countless more.
Warmly,
Scott Brody's signature
Scott Brody
Chair, ACA Board of Directors
Tom Rosenberg's signature
Tom Rosenberg
ACA President/CEO
Post by: zale on April 22, 2020, 05:10:37 PM
https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/coronavirus/board-chair-president-ceo-update-apr-15
This is very confusing.
Post by: aygart on April 22, 2020, 05:19:25 PM
This is very confusing.It is written for camp admins.
Post by: A3 on April 22, 2020, 10:39:43 PM
Post by: 12HRS on April 22, 2020, 11:13:19 PM
Post by: yitzf on April 23, 2020, 12:36:14 AM
Post by: ari3 on April 23, 2020, 12:44:40 AM
I like that they are delaying processing of payments till there is clarity.
Post by: Yikes2179 on April 23, 2020, 01:03:50 AM
I like that they are delaying processing of payments till there is clarity.Camp Agudah is delaying as well
Post by: Denverite on April 24, 2020, 02:40:06 PM
“NYS has pulled all summer camp licenses in upstate. Period. No camps currently have the option. Whoever states that they are opening is not being forthcoming. My own program, Kids of Courage, has decided not to even consider trip or activities. Unless NYS reverses, it’s not happening.”
I don’t know the person who wrote this and if his info is correct but that is his exact quote.
Post by: aygart on April 24, 2020, 03:07:38 PM
My own program, Kids of Courage, has decided not to even consider trip or activities.
The same which had their winter ski trip right in middle of all this and arranged for kids to be pushed in the MIA marathon.
Post by: Lurker on April 29, 2020, 09:27:37 PM
Post by: ari3 on April 29, 2020, 09:34:40 PM
Per a conversation with the head of one the main Lubavitch camps, they are very optimistic about opening. I'm not sure I buy it, but it they do open, are you sending your kid to camp?Since kids don't get it bad and my family already had it I probably would send my daughter if her camp opens. (I would obviously ask my doctor first).
Post by: jose34 on April 30, 2020, 05:38:06 AM
Meaning everyone in camp will stay in camp - no visiting day, no visitors, no one coming in/out etc...
Post by: avromie7 on April 30, 2020, 07:10:01 AM
Heard from one of the NYS Camps indirectly- that if they do open camps ( talk specifically about this camp but I can't imagine it wont apply to other camps as well) it will be one big quarantine.This is definitely what will happen
Meaning everyone in camp will stay in camp - no visiting day, no visitors, no one coming in/out etc...
Post by: Boruch Parnes on April 30, 2020, 08:31:21 AM
This is definitely what will happennoone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarity
Post by: S209 on April 30, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
noone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarityhttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1854707/sullivan-county-planning-on-summer-camps-opening.html
Post by: avromie7 on April 30, 2020, 10:15:58 AM
noone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarityMaybe you misunderstood, I meant assuming they are able to open there is no way they'll be letting anyone in or out.
Post by: theyankel on April 30, 2020, 11:16:25 AM
the following is a copy and paste of the emails sent by camp:
3/23
Dear :
We are touching base regarding this upcoming summer season. As we navigate these difficult times together, we are optimistic that this will all come to an end soon iy"h. We are certainly hopeful for a regular, much needed, camp season. We will send out another update after Pesach iy"h. As of now, camp is on, as scheduled.
All post dated checks and credit card charges will not be charged for now, and will be kept on hold.
May you, your family, and all of Klal Yisroel stay safe, and have a Kosher and Freilichen Pesach!
Camp Gan Yisroel Montreal
4/22
Dear :
We trust that you enjoyed a meaningful Pesach surrounded by your immediate family.
As the summer season approaches, we are all wondering about the status of summer camps for summer 2020. As of now, we are hopeful that camp will run as scheduled. Of course, this decision is not in our hands, but rather in the hands of the minister of education and health officials. As we at CGI are actively preparing for another wonderful season, we cannot confirm anything before the government approves the opening of all camps. Rest assured, that as soon as we are given the green light, you will be the first to know.
We remind you that postdated payments will not be cashed/processed before a final decision is made.
Best of luck in these trying times and stay safe. We look forward to sharing good news iy"h.
Camp Gan Yisroel Montreal
based on the above, i have communicated with the camp on a number of occasions as to what their internal deadlines are etc... and what their expectations of payments are being that they arent charging the installments. so far, there has been no firm responses. only roundabout answers. which leaves a bad feeling... realistically, my opinion, for whatever its worth, is that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a camp to get ready on such short notice and also have the ability to get trips and programs planned etc... i understand this is the administration source of income however, they should be more forthcoming and provide options to parents including a refund if they dont feel safe/comfortable sending their child.
Post by: Lurker on April 30, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Post by: theyankel on April 30, 2020, 11:30:46 AM
CGI Montreal has the additional burden of having the Canadian border closed. Even if it does open, which I don't think is likely, it would have to be only to Canadians.another reason to be forthcoming that it is unlikely and they should propose a solution
suggestions
credit for next year (which in itself is probably worthless because they can just increase the base ask price),
refund,
a first right of refusal if it does end up opening
etc...
something to not leave people hanging because EVERYONE worldwide is dealing with covid19 on some level. not just camp or school. so all people should realize that and being in a service business provide some guidance as to what they are thinking.
Post by: AsherO on April 30, 2020, 06:57:56 PM
based on the above, i have communicated with the camp on a number of occasions as to what their internal deadlines are etc... and what their expectations of payments are being that they arent charging the installments. so far, there has been no firm responses. only roundabout answers. which leaves a bad feeling... realistically, my opinion, for whatever its worth, is that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a camp to get ready on such short notice and also have the ability to get trips and programs planned etc... i understand this is the administration source of income however, they should be more forthcoming and provide options to parents including a refund if they dont feel safe/comfortable sending their child.
If everyone is quarantined in camp, trips might not even be an option.
Anyway, why not ask to cancel your application so they don’t surprise you with charges, or at least notify them that they are no longer authorized to charge you anything further until they hear back from you. I’m sure that if they open and you want to send your kid(s), you can always reapply later, I doubt they'll be sold out this summer. Personally I doll wouldn’t be sending my kid unless things changed drastically over the next month.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on April 30, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
Personally I doll wouldn’t be sending my kid unless things changed drastically over the next month.
What would need to change for you to feel comfortable with your kid going to camp?
Post by: Therebbesbocher on April 30, 2020, 08:06:38 PM
realistically, my opinion, for whatever its worth, is that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a camp to get ready on such short notice and also have the ability to get trips and programs planned etc...I don't know about cgi Montreal, but I am involved in a different camp and we are operating under the assumption that camp will open, so planning for most programs are well underway. Obviously trips are more complicated and we aren't putting deposits on anything, but we hope to start that as soon as we have more info.
Post by: haltkup on May 03, 2020, 09:23:01 AM
Post by: SSLPhD on May 03, 2020, 09:53:31 AM
Post by: zale on May 03, 2020, 09:58:50 AM
Not camp, but my daughter's friend and her family already went up for the summer, since all the kids are doing distance learning anyway.I know some people that went up. It’s a bad idea. I don’t need to explain why.
Post by: zh cohen on May 03, 2020, 10:03:06 AM
Not camp, but my daughter's friend and her family already went up for the summer, since all the kids are doing distance learning anyway.
Yup, the year round groceries are a lot busier
Post by: Afrages6 on May 03, 2020, 10:03:17 AM
I know some people that went up. It’s a bad idea. I don’t need to explain why.Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating there
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2020, 11:12:20 AM
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating thereSeems to me that it would work better than in the tight quarters of the city.
Post by: zale on May 03, 2020, 11:16:02 AM
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating thereAre they going shopping there?
Post by: Lurker on May 03, 2020, 11:17:12 AM
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating there
They don't see a problem for themselves? Or they don't see a problem for the communities they are going to "isolate" in?
Post by: yaakov35 on May 07, 2020, 04:38:57 PM
Post by: Lurker on May 07, 2020, 04:42:18 PM
Looks like it might be happen
On the contrary. It looks like Sullivan County is disinclined to let it happen, which is why the camps are lobbying so hard.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 04:43:04 PM
Looks like it might be happenThat's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.
Post by: yaakov35 on May 07, 2020, 04:44:42 PM
That's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.I hear, but R senter got permission for his yeshiva to open in Pennsylvania, might not be so far fetched
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 04:44:51 PM
That's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.All the big camps started charging. I think its safe to say that in 2 months, things can be worked out to make it safe.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 04:45:59 PM
All the big camps started charging. I think its safe to say that in 2 months, things can be worked out to make it safe.Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.
It's the refunding that's tricky.
GL.
Post by: ari3 on May 07, 2020, 04:46:54 PM
Looks like it might be happenSome kids might not be interested in camp with no trips and other restrictions.
Post by: Afrages6 on May 07, 2020, 04:48:36 PM
Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.
It's the refunding that's tricky.
GL.
Let's hope this doesn't happen because we could be looking at situations where camps would have to go bankrupt if they started preparing for camp and had to stop abruptly at the 11th hour.
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 04:49:51 PM
Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.Most camps stopped charging and only continued now. They all are charging knowing that they may have to refund. (Heard this from 4 camp head directors)
It's the refunding that's tricky.
GL.
Side Note: I was the one to put the charges on hold and the one to restart them.
Post by: Afrages6 on May 07, 2020, 04:50:31 PM
Some kids might not be interested in camp with no trips and other restrictions.
I am sure there will be lots of kids that will jump at the opportunity to go away and be able interact with friends and play sports.
Post by: Traveler718 on May 07, 2020, 05:36:56 PM
I hear, but R senter got permission for his yeshiva to open in Pennsylvania, might not be so far fetched
If you watch his video, he says that for the first 14 days - minimum, every person will have their own room, and he is taking over an 11-building, 35-acre campus. How realistic will it be to provide every camper with his own room for 2 weeks?
Post by: AsherO on May 07, 2020, 05:47:37 PM
Let's hope this doesn't happen because we could be looking at situations where camps would have to go bankrupt if they started preparing for camp and had to stop abruptly at the 11th hour.
One more reason not to let them charge, then you’ll be guilty of bankrupting them when you demand the refund you deserve when they decide not to open.
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 05:50:15 PM
One more reason not to let them charge, then you’ll be guilty of bankrupting them when you demand the refund you deserve when they decide not to open.
Are you talking about Old camps or New Ones?
The new ones I would be wary, old ones would be stupid to loose a name over money.
Post by: Afrages6 on May 07, 2020, 05:55:08 PM
Are you talking about Old camps or New Ones?It’s not about losing a name. The costs they have to put into preparing camp every year won’t be recouped on their end. Most camp operators live off this the whole year and don’t have reserves to cover these costs and refund the parents.
The new ones I would be wary, old ones would be stupid to loose a name over money.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 06:02:34 PM
The new ones I would be wary, old ones would be stupid to loose a name over money.Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds when they had to cancel at the 11th hour.
(https://www.myinstants.com/media/instants_images/boratnot.jpg)
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:03:50 PM
Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds.
Not.
Edit: To match @Dans edit :)
(https://www.myinstants.com/media/instants_images/boratnot.jpg)Point Taken. I will ask one of the directors on Sunday.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 06:04:24 PM
Point Taken. I will ask one of the directors on Sunday.You're going to ask a nogaya b'davar. What will that prove?
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:06:51 PM
You're going to ask a nogaya b'davar. What will that prove?Asking why they started charging and what his plan is.
He was from the first to stop charging, I asked him when he started again (May 1), he said that as of now they are assuming that it should be ok to start.
If they see that in one month (June 1) that it is not going good, they will stop charging.
He also pointed out that those that were concerned, pulled the children out already.
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:09:16 PM
I will be sending to camp (and paid for some of it), but in my case its different as its a special needs child.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 06:10:06 PM
Asking why they started charging and what his plan is.They're charging because they have expenses. Just like the Pesach programs.
He was from the first to stop charging, I asked him when he started again (May 1), he said that as of now they are assuming that it should be ok to start.
If they see that in one month (June 1) that it is not going good, they will stop charging.
He also pointed out that those that were concerned, pulled the children out already.
If they have to cancel, parents will be pressured to accept a future credit or partial refund. Just like the Pesach programs.
/.02.
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 06:10:47 PM
My Point of View:These might have a better shot of getting regulatory approval.
I will be sending to camp (and paid for some of it), but in my case its different as its a special needs child.
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:13:39 PM
If they have to cancel, parents will be pressured to accept a future credit or partial refund. Just like the Pesach programs.
/.02.
Crowd he is dealing with will guaranteed disputed
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 06:14:32 PM
Crowd he is dealing with will guaranteed disputedWhat does the contract say?
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:15:40 PM
These might have a better shot of getting regulatory approval.
If I am not mistaken they got already, but it was that same approval that all camp's got. (The words were something along the lines of: no one knows whats going to happen so you can continue until we tell you, STOP!)
Post by: yakov116 on May 07, 2020, 06:15:56 PM
What does the contract say?Not sure I can check on sunday, if it says anything.
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 09:41:14 PM
Let's hope this doesn't happen because we could be looking at situations where camps would have to go bankrupt if they started preparing for camp and had to stop abruptly at the 11th hour.If they dont open They'll go bankrupt regardless if the decision is made in the 11th hour or 2 months ago. Sleep away camps are a full year business, they likely spend close to 1m on overhead and administration during the year before actual camp expenses.
Post by: Afrages6 on May 07, 2020, 09:42:28 PM
If they dont open They'll go bankrupt regardless if the decision is made in the 11th hour or 2 months ago. Sleep away camps are a full year business, they likely spend close to 1m on overhead and administration during the year before actual camp expenses.Right but they may go bankrupt with all the parents money in the bank
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 09:43:59 PM
Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds when they had to cancel at the 11th hour.Some did
(https://www.myinstants.com/media/instants_images/boratnot.jpg)
Post by: Baglach on May 07, 2020, 09:45:44 PM
They're charging because they have expenses. Just like the Pesach programs.Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?
If they have to cancel, parents will be pressured to accept a future credit or partial refund. Just like the Pesach programs.
/.02.
Post by: S209 on May 07, 2020, 09:45:58 PM
Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?LOL
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 09:47:07 PM
LOLWhat's lol? Plenty did
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 09:47:24 PM
Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?Yes
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2020, 09:47:56 PM
What's lol? Plenty didVast majority did not give full refunds.
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 09:51:43 PM
Vast majority did not give full refunds.Could be, but I know of plenty that did.
I work in that industry, we gave full refunds and we lost a significant amount of money, I dont find anything about it funny.
Post by: S209 on May 07, 2020, 09:53:31 PM
Could be, but I know of plenty that did.I know of a bunch that didn’t. I’m not judging but I thought that was representative of everyone. I’m glad to hear you and others went ahead and did the right thing at great personal cost, despite not necessarily needing to (I don’t know the Halacha).
I work in that industry, we gave full refunds and we lost a significant amount of money, I dont find anything about it funny.
Post by: dealfinder11 on May 07, 2020, 09:57:31 PM
Post by: Sport on May 07, 2020, 10:00:44 PM
I know of a bunch that didn’t. I’m not judging but I thought that was representative of everyone. I’m glad to hear you and others went ahead and did the right thing at great personal cost, despite not necessarily needing to (I don’t know the Halacha).We saw this after we had made our decision to give full refunds (not that we would have done differently), supposedly this is from rav Herchel schachter
Post by: S209 on May 07, 2020, 10:17:09 PM
from what I am hearing, it seems they have a plan to test everyone a few days before (assuming we have widely accessible rapid testing by then), and then lock the camp once everyone in side. Granted there is risk of an outbreak, and camps are ill equipped to deal with one, however the idea of sleepover camps seems more feasible and controllable than day camps. Additionally, assuming no immunocompromised kids, the camp population is extremely low risk, though you would have to make a judgement on Head Staff.I’m pretty sure we are already at the point, at least in the tri-state area, where anyone who wants a test can get a test. This is what the letter someone posted from the OJCA said, that all would be tested and then mass quarantined in camp.
Post by: avromie7 on May 07, 2020, 11:36:56 PM
from what I am hearing, it seems they have a plan to test everyone a few days before (assuming we have widely accessible rapid testing by then), and then lock the camp once everyone in side. Granted there is risk of an outbreak, and camps are ill equipped to deal with one, however the idea of sleepover camps seems more feasible and controllable than day camps. Additionally, assuming no immunocompromised kids, the camp population is extremely low risk, though you would have to make a judgement on Head Staff.In most camps I'm familiar with, there arent too many people over the age of 50 or even 40. There are also plenty of older people who already got the virus, we're left with a few people who won't be able to go this year, even if it's the director, they just won't be able to be on campus.
Post by: KSMH on May 08, 2020, 12:11:12 AM
Summer camps? Watch Sullivan County officials cautiously discussing the possibility of summer camps being open this year. pic.twitter.com/MQPz3g4BZH
— Lakewood News Network (@LakewoodNewsNet) May 8, 2020
Post by: justaregularguy on May 08, 2020, 12:28:42 AM
Gonna be pretty nutty :o
Post by: AsherO on May 08, 2020, 07:31:05 AM
I’m pretty sure we are already at the point, at least in the tri-state area, where anyone who wants a test can get a test. This is what the letter someone posted from the OJCA said, that all would be tested and then mass quarantined in camp.
What exactly are they testing for, virus or antibodies? Will they accept children with antibodies? At what threshold?
If there’s any sort of reopening in NY, say in 4-6 weeks from now, will they make an effort that kids get straight from home quarantine to camp quarantine without a quarantine lapse in between?
On a separate note, for camps still charging. Why are they charging the same amount if it’s obvious that the camp experience, if they end up opening, will be different this year (no trips, no guest entertainment) in ways that will save the camp money. Why aren’t they lowering their fees accordingly?
Post by: avromie7 on May 08, 2020, 07:39:03 AM
What exactly are they testing for, virus or antibodies? Will they accept children with antibodies? At what threshold?1) Many expenses will be higher this year
If there’s any sort of reopening in NY, say in 4-6 weeks from now, will they make an effort that kids get straight from home quarantine to camp quarantine without a quarantine lapse in between?
On a separate note, for camps still charging. Why are they charging the same amount if it’s obvious that the camp experience, if they end up opening, will be different this year (no trips, no guest entertainment) in ways that will save the camp money. Why aren’t they lowering their fees accordingly?
2) They're taking a huge risk by preparing to open, they deserve to be able to make more money for the risk.
Post by: AsherO on May 08, 2020, 07:45:04 AM
1) Many expenses will be higher this year
Which specifically? And if you say PPE then to what extent will it actually be used?
2) They're taking a huge risk by preparing to open, they deserve to be able to make more money for the risk.
Who says I should pay for the risk. If they’re continuing to charge me then they’re taking the risk with my money, can I get a discount for that risk knowing I will lose whatever they charged if they go belly up?
Disclaimer: I’m not related to anyone in the camp business, nor do I have any children of overnight-camp age.
Post by: avromie7 on May 08, 2020, 07:55:00 AM
Which specifically? And if you say PPE then to what extent will it actually be used?Many goods and services are more expensive and harder to get. They may need a larger medical team. They may also have less campers (state requirement or worried parents) so the cost per child is higher.
Who says I should pay for the risk. If they’re continuing to charge me then they’re taking the risk with my money, can I get a discount for that risk knowing I will lose whatever they charged if they go belly up?
Disclaimer: I’m not related to anyone in the camp business, nor do I have any children of overnight-camp age.
They're a business and they can charge whatever they want, if you want justification (which they are in no way required to provide) it's because of increased risk.
Post by: aygart on May 08, 2020, 08:14:50 AM
Many goods and services are more expensive and harder to get. They may need a larger medical team. They may also have less campers (state requirement or worried parents) so the cost per child is higher.The last part depends if they truly communicated with the parents with complete and accurate information.
They're a business and they can charge whatever they want, if you want justification (which they are in no way required to provide) it's because of increased risk.
Post by: Lurker on May 09, 2020, 10:11:30 PM
Post by: avromie7 on May 09, 2020, 10:18:58 PM
How much does Kawasaki change this conversation?Hopefully we'll have a better answer to this question within the next couple of weeks.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on May 10, 2020, 12:03:00 AM
Post by: Lurker on May 10, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Camps might just go out of state .
How would they do that? Are there a bunch of vacant ready-to-use campgrounds just hanging out waiting for them? With access to food? Supporting infrastructure?
Post by: aygart on May 10, 2020, 12:46:35 AM
Camps might just go out of state .That would make it much safer.
Post by: justaregularguy on May 10, 2020, 02:06:59 AM
How would they do that? Are there a bunch of vacant ready-to-use campgrounds just hanging out waiting for them? With access to food? Supporting infrastructure?yep I’ve done a lot of research on camp rentals and there are options out there. There are camping forums like ACA and others I’ve dealt with. If anyone wants details I’ll be glad to provide :) pm me
Post by: Kobe Bryant on May 10, 2020, 07:31:59 AM
That would make it much safer.
This is only in regards to restrictions by states like NY and NJ
Post by: JunkYardUnz on May 14, 2020, 04:02:46 PM
Post by: yesitsme on May 14, 2020, 04:05:19 PM
Post by: Boruch Parnes on May 14, 2020, 04:28:38 PM
Now that I pretty convinced camps won’t open. Is there a tread on above ground pools. One that is 4 ft deep but will be taken down at the end of the summer.anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure why
Post by: Afrages6 on May 14, 2020, 04:30:04 PM
anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure why
Camp operators are definitely under the impression that they will be able to open
Post by: Traveler718 on May 14, 2020, 06:04:02 PM
Camp operators are definitely under the impression that they will be able to open
They may technically be allowed to open. The question is if it will be financially worthwhile for them to do so given the draconian limitations they are likely to be subject to, which will also ruin the camp experience for many campers.
Post by: avromie7 on May 14, 2020, 07:10:38 PM
They may technically be allowed to open. The question is if it will be financially worthwhile for them to do so given the draconian limitations they are likely to be subject to, which will also ruin the camp experience for many campers.CMIIW, but most of their expenses are either already sunk (annual upkeep, taxes, etc.) or variable (if the camp is half full the food budget would be roughly cut in half) so they don't have much to lose by opening.
Post by: Afrages6 on May 14, 2020, 07:16:22 PM
They may technically be allowed to open. The question is if it will be financially worthwhile for them to do so given the draconian limitations they are likely to be subject to, which will also ruin the camp experience for many campers.You have to assume that if a camp is opening and being locked down it won’t really have to be enforcing social distancing.
Post by: mercaz1 on May 15, 2020, 11:32:33 AM
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 11:33:23 AM
wont they save money by not having trips or having to bring in expensive night activitiesUnless they have to spend more to create activities to make up for those
Post by: Kobe Bryant on May 15, 2020, 12:01:49 PM
Unless they have to spend more to create activities to make up for thoseAgreed, the cost of bringing entertainment to camp is actually more expensive than many of the trips.
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 04:01:44 PM
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 15, 2020, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: mlomni on May 15, 2020, 05:04:59 PM
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.
Where did you hear that one?
Post by: lubaby on May 15, 2020, 05:08:18 PM
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.Day camps (same as school) are obviously different situation then overnight camp. But kudos to them for being realistic and not getting hopes up for nothing.
Post by: lubaby on May 15, 2020, 05:09:59 PM
anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure whyOf course the camp operators "need" to think that way until things are official one way or the other.
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 15, 2020, 06:33:14 PM
Where did you hear that one?
Wife's really well-connected coworker.
Post by: cmey on May 17, 2020, 06:58:26 PM
https://hamodia.com/2020/05/17/state-reassessing-summer-camps-opening-light-new-inflammatory-disease-children/
Post by: ttn on May 18, 2020, 09:31:43 AM
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 12:48:47 AM
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 10:07:45 AM
Now that I pretty convinced camps won’t open. Is there a tread on above ground pools. One that is 4 ft deep but will be taken down at the end of the summer.i bought this one for $367. about a month or so ago... its not 4' deep but close...
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bestway-Power-Steel-16-x-10-x-42-Oval-Frame-Swimming-Pool-Set-with-Pump-Ladder-and-Cover/55190500
walmart also credited me the freight shipping
Post by: Kobe Bryant on May 19, 2020, 10:20:45 AM
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 12:11:56 PM
has anyone asked for and been given a refund of deposit?
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 12:17:23 PM
Connecticut's Governor Ned Lamont signed an executive order prohibiting resident camps (sleep away camps) but allowing Day camps to open not before June 22nd with Restrictions.This seems counter to science but may be responsive to daycare needs.
Post by: ExGingi on May 19, 2020, 12:20:28 PM
Connecticut's Governor Ned Lamont signed an executive order prohibiting resident camps (sleep away camps) but allowing Day camps to open not before June 22nd with Restrictions.
I just got the following in an email from a camp:
Quote
First the good news: The State of Connecticut, Office of Early Childhood (the agency that gives us our camp license) has released guidelines for summer camps to be able to open this summer. These include detailed safety procedures that the camp can put in place to operate safely.
The Even Better News: Our wonderful camp directors and staff are continuously working full steam ahead with all the camp preparations for this coming camp season to make it a truly great summer.
We are anticipating that, between now and the end of June, the OEC will have some updates and changes so we will give them a few weeks to edit and confirm the guidelines. Once they are done, we will send a follow up email to keep you informed and to provide you with any modified Medical forms and other information you need to make coming to camp this summer as smooth a process as possible.
And the following follow-up email:
Quote
Dear Parents, Shyichyu,
Yesterday, the Governor of CT signed a new Executive Order that outlines dates for reopening the state. In it, he announced that he is not allowing overnight camps to open.
This overrides the previous guidelines and permission presented by the commissioner of the OEC - the agency that licenses camps.
Along with many many other overnight camps in CT, we were fully anticipating to open prior to this order. As such, we have been moving full-steam ahead with cabin improvements, adding additional indoor space to better accommodate more stay-in-camp activities and more.
As our motto up until this point was the ruling of our Rebbeim that “tracht gut VET zein gut”, this is still our motto, and we are hopeful that this order will be reversed bezH.
We are currently reaching out to the office of the OEC, the Governor’s office, and the ACA.
We will send out any further updates as soon as they are available, and as always, our updates will be based only on verified information from the state or from the Commissioner of the OEC.
...
PS, Notably, the order does allow for summer school and day camps to open and is not in line with the CDC that overnight camps can operate safely this summer. It also ignores the American Camping Association recommendations which agree that overnight camps are safer than staying home or even going to day camps.
In light of all the above, we are hopeful that a new order will in time change the ruling to allow for overnight camps to open.
In the meantime, we encourage you to voice your objections to the governor’s office and let them know that if day camps and summer school can open safely, so can overnight camps, if not more so. Email-Governor-LamontEmail-Governor-Lamont.
Post by: beeweegee on May 19, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.If so, certainly not officially. Or even unofficially, in some cases.
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 10:48:33 PM
https://collive.com/cgi-toronto-wont-be-opening-this-summer/
i am still not sure why with all the guidelines etc that camps would want to expose themselves nor do i understand parents that are comfortable sending. i am torn between both sides
so many things can go wrong and although its great to want to "open the country back up" i think overnight camp is a luxury albeit a very beneficial one so it should be treated as such and the overnight camps should really think of a way to make the parents feel better and comfortable by just saying outright that camp wont be the same if it does open and you can get a refund etc if you so desire... why wait till a week before? how will they expect payment etc on such short notice?
just think they should be a mentch about it.... like everyone else offering deferments etc... people lost jobs, might not have money etc...do the right thing and see what the parent body also thinks and then make a decision... its not only about money this year
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 10:54:53 PM
according to this article, cgi montreal is also not opening this yearThere is a counter argument that kids have been locked up and home for two months and let them go to camp and have a carefree few weeks. I wopld love if my daughter would be able to go (although since she had symptoms i'm not that concerned from a health standpoint)
https://collive.com/cgi-toronto-wont-be-opening-this-summer/
i am still not sure why with all the guidelines etc that camps would want to expose themselves nor do i understand parents that are comfortable sending. i am torn between both sides
so many things can go wrong and although its great to want to "open the country back up" i think overnight camp is a luxury albeit a very beneficial one so it should be treated as such and the overnight camps should really think of a way to make the parents feel better and comfortable by just saying outright that camp wont be the same if it does open and you can get a refund etc if you so desire... why wait till a week before? how will they expect payment etc on such short notice?
just think they should be a mentch about it.... like everyone else offering deferments etc... people lost jobs, might not have money etc...do the right thing and see what the parent body also thinks and then make a decision... its not only about money this year
I do agree camps should try to be understanding with parents who have been adversely affected financially but keep in mind it is likely the camps are also going to take a big hit
Post by: zale on May 19, 2020, 10:54:59 PM
according to this article, cgi montreal is also not opening this year
https://collive.com/cgi-toronto-wont-be-opening-this-summer/
CGI Montreal is governed by Ontario?
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 11:02:28 PM
CGI Montreal is governed by Ontario?no
that is toronto
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 11:07:24 PM
There is a counter argument that kids have been locked up and home for two months and let them go to camp and have a carefree few weeks. I wopld love if my daughter would be able to go (although since she had symptoms i'm not that concerned from a health standpoint)agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,
I do agree camps should try to be understanding with parents who have been adversely affected financially but keep in mind it is likely the camps are also going to take a big hit
im speaking from limited experience but dont say the deposit is non refundable etc but say here is what we are thinking this is our expectations, we will decide by x date if we arent opening, etc.... something like that... camp is a month away
parents need to plan and decide too
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2020, 11:11:57 PM
agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,None of those you listed are out of the kindness of their hearts. Landlords would much rather give a tenant a discount and he pays now that need to wait until they start allowing evictions again for example.
im speaking from limited experience but dont say the deposit is non refundable etc but say here is what we are thinking this is our expectations, we will decide by x date if we arent opening, etc.... something like that... camp is a month away
parents need to plan and decide too
Post by: ari3 on May 19, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,They aren't communicating because they don't have what to communicate. They want to open and are trying to but have no concrete information
im speaking from limited experience but dont say the deposit is non refundable etc but say here is what we are thinking this is our expectations, we will decide by x date if we arent opening, etc.... something like that... camp is a month away
parents need to plan and decide too
I haven't heard anything from my daughters camp (although they haven't cashed the check for the payment from April), it would be nice to hear something but I understand why I haven't
Post by: theyankel on May 19, 2020, 11:18:59 PM
None of those you listed are out of the kindness of their hearts. Landlords would much rather give a tenant a discount and he pays now that need to wait until they start allowing evictions again for example.they were examples and there are plenty more... everyone has been impacted to some extent.
the camp wont be able to provide the service which was applied for - that is 100% certain
so whether out of the kindness of their hearts or not, they should be forthcoming with their thinking etc... not just say were not depositing checks or charging cards until.... and we'll keep you posted....
transparency
thats what i'm saying.. so parents can know what they are dealing with... then, they can discuss refunds of a deposit if they arent comfortable or wont be able to pay in full on short notice
Post by: Kobe Bryant on May 19, 2020, 11:26:27 PM
As the Jewish community awaits with anticipation on a decision if Upstate NY summer camps will be permitted to open this coming summer, at least one camp has reportedly received the green light.
Camp Oraysa, located on Todd Road in Woodbourne, NY, sent an email to the parent body of the camp stating that they have been given a permit from the Health Department.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862549/breaking-camp-in-woodbourne-reportedly-receives-permit-to-open-this-summer.html
Post by: Boruch Parnes on May 19, 2020, 11:46:22 PM
Camp In Woodbourne Reportedly Receives Permit To Open This Summer1) its boys over 18 possible they got some sort of residence permit
As the Jewish community awaits with anticipation on a decision if Upstate NY summer camps will be permitted to open this coming summer, at least one camp has reportedly received the green light.
Camp Oraysa, located on Todd Road in Woodbourne, NY, sent an email to the parent body of the camp stating that they have been given a permit from the Health Department.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862549/breaking-camp-in-woodbourne-reportedly-receives-permit-to-open-this-summer.html
2) if the state bans camp the permit is void
3) does anyone know if they actually got permits or just a promise that they will get a permit usually camps dont get permits till june
Post by: how on May 19, 2020, 11:50:04 PM
Post by: yaakovely on May 20, 2020, 08:22:49 AM
1) its boys over 18 possible they got some sort of residence permitI just spoke with the camp director and he said that as of now its only for boys over 18.
2) if the state bans camp the permit is void
3) does anyone know if they actually got permits or just a promise that they will get a permit usually camps dont get permits till june
Post by: Joel on May 21, 2020, 12:12:50 PM
Post by: etech0 on May 21, 2020, 12:14:36 PM
Breaking: Governor Cuomo announced summer school will not open for this summerDoes that mean no day camp?
Post by: Afrages6 on May 21, 2020, 12:20:10 PM
Does that mean no day camp?He didn’t say for sure but he said he wouldn’t send his kids to day camp
Post by: etech0 on May 21, 2020, 12:20:28 PM
He didn’t say for sure but he said he wouldn’t send his kids to day campHow old are his kids? :)
Post by: mgarfin on May 21, 2020, 12:55:45 PM
Breaking: Governor Cuomo announced summer school will not open for this summer
As for summer day camps, the governor said if the camps can prepare guidelines and the DOH believes they can do camps safely, there is the possibility they could happen.
However, the governor also said that until we have more information on the illness, he would not send his children to day camps.
Post by: Joel on May 21, 2020, 01:47:49 PM
As for summer day camps, the governor said if the camps can prepare guidelines and the DOH believes they can do camps safely, there is the possibility they could happen.
However, the governor also said that until we have more information on the illness, he would not send his children to day camps.
Which is a nice way of saying no
Post by: 6girls on May 21, 2020, 02:27:05 PM
How old are his kids? :)Ages 22-25
Post by: theyankel on May 22, 2020, 12:05:18 PM
the following is an excerpt of said email which seemed interesting:
Although we are forced to cancel camp, we will refund 100% of your payment. We make this offer knowing that the financial impact on camp is challenging, as we have, and continue to incur huge expenditures anticipating camp’s opening and ongoing expenses.
Attached is your record of payment to date. We take the liberty to request your support to assist us with our current cost and losses. Please consider donating the deposit and perhaps some of your payments towards camp, for a donation receipt (US receipt option as well).
Post by: Lurker on May 22, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
CGI montreal sent an email cancelling camp and issuing refunds
the following is an excerpt of said email which seemed interesting:
Although we are forced to cancel camp, we will refund 100% of your payment. We make this offer knowing that the financial impact on camp is challenging, as we have, and continue to incur huge expenditures anticipating camp’s opening and ongoing expenses.
Attached is your record of payment to date. We take the liberty to request your support to assist us with our current cost and losses. Please consider donating the deposit and perhaps some of your payments towards camp, for a donation receipt (US receipt option as well).
Smart. Get the goodwill of full refunds, avoid the costs of disputes, and maybe get some donations from those who can afford it.
Post by: lubaby on May 22, 2020, 12:29:12 PM
Smart. Get the goodwill of full refunds, avoid the costs of disputes, and maybe get some donations from those who can afford it.They should mention / give option to at minimum deduct credit card processing fees. People pay by credit card for personal gain / benefits (earn points AND avoid instant payment (cash / check / transfer).
Now the company is potentially taking extra losses due to this (if processing 100% refund).
Post by: Lurker on May 22, 2020, 12:34:24 PM
They should mention / give option to at minimum deduct credit card processing fees. People pay by credit card for personal gain / benefits (earn points AND avoid instant payment (cash / check / transfer).
Now the company is potentially taking extra losses due to this (if processing 100% refund).
Frankly, it's the cost of doing business, and a risk you run every time you charge for a service before actually providing that service.
Post by: lifetimedeals on May 22, 2020, 12:47:20 PM
https://wsvn.com/news/local/desantis-florida-summer-camps-can-open-without-restrictions/
Post by: ari3 on May 22, 2020, 02:56:12 PM
Smart. Get the goodwill of full refunds, avoid the costs of disputes, and maybe get some donations from those who can afford it.I wonder how much they will get back from parents? I would guess some but not an overwhelming amount
Many camps are privately owned and would have a much harder time asking for donations
Post by: Lurker on May 22, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
DeSantis: Florida summer camps can open without restrictions
https://wsvn.com/news/local/desantis-florida-summer-camps-can-open-without-restrictions/
Cuz FL didn't have enough OOTers already...
Post by: Lurker on May 22, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I wonder how much they will get back from parents? I would guess some but not an overwhelming amount
Many camps are privately owned and would have a much harder time asking for donations
Some is better than nothing, and it should help offset the CC processing bills and some other admin costs. A camp like CGI Montreal has many alumni who hold it in high regard, with some campers there for a third generation. I think you'd be surprised at what they can fundraise, especially on the back of this goodwill gesture.
Post by: israshot on May 24, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Post by: theyankel on May 24, 2020, 11:01:06 AM
https://collive.com/camp-chayolei-to-open-for-summer/Pocono or upstate NY?
I understand that the consortium of upstate NY camps are applying lots of pressure to get their seasonal permits but haven't heard if any actually received
It's a large group and doesn't only include frum or chassidish camps
There are many that aren't as well
Post by: israshot on May 24, 2020, 11:09:39 AM
Pocono or upstate NY?This is PA
I understand that the consortium of upstate NY camps are applying lots of pressure to get their seasonal permits but haven't heard if any actually received
It's a large group and doesn't only include frum or chassidish camps
There are many that aren't as well
Post by: JunkYardUnz on May 31, 2020, 02:13:53 PM
“We hope this update finds you and your family healthy and well.
As we have mentioned in our previous correspondence, summer camp is an ongoing saga for camps all over America.
We have been working very very hard to open MTM this summer. Our amazing head staff, and staff are eager and excited to make the MTM dream a reality for this summer. All year long we've been preparing and gearing up, and it is with tremendous siyata dishmayah that we have such a wonderful group of staff and campers. It would be with a very heavy heart if we would not have the opportunity to get to know each other personally
The current goal of AI Camps is to give as many campers as possible the summer experience they hoped for under the guidance of our rabbonim and medical advisors. The camp administration is working with the head staff members of each camp to make summer 5780 a reality for our children.
We will IYH be maintaining regular correspondence.
We wish one and all a good Yom Tov.”
Post by: yungermanchik on June 01, 2020, 09:26:11 PM
This past year Hagaon Harav Reuven Shlit”a, decided that it was time to rebuild the camp Bais Medrash. The old building was taken down immediately after the summer, and the work was moving right along until the virus started. After that, the work was interrupted, and equally important, we had to stop meeting people for financial help. Right now the shell is up, but the inside is empty and unusable. In order to get this Makom Torah to be able to get up and running as quickly as possible we need your help. Please help restart the Kol Torah in America by making this new building a reality.
https://go.thechesedfund.com/l1Ny5j/camp-yeshiva-of-staten-island
Dedication opportunities are available.
Please contact: (917)946-2974 campyeshivaofsi@gmail.com for dedication donations and/or monthly donation signup via ACH.
Post by: avromie7 on June 01, 2020, 10:38:36 PM
As Klal Yisroel is suffering from the effects and aftereffects of the virus, one thing extremely necessary, is to prepare to restart the Kol Torah. This summer we are hoping to be able to restart Yeshiva of Staten Island at its’ upstate location by the parameters set by health experts. Camp YSI has always been a yeshiva away from home where the learning continues at the highest levels, befitting the place where Rav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l would lead klal Yisroel during the summer months.I donated a few weeks ago
This past year Hagaon Harav Reuven Shlit”a, decided that it was time to rebuild the camp Bais Medrash. The old building was taken down immediately after the summer, and the work was moving right along until the virus started. After that, the work was interrupted, and equally important, we had to stop meeting people for financial help. Right now the shell is up, but the inside is empty and unusable. In order to get this Makom Torah to be able to get up and running as quickly as possible we need your help. Please help restart the Kol Torah in America by making this new building a reality.
https://go.thechesedfund.com/l1Ny5j/camp-yeshiva-of-staten-island
Dedication opportunities are available.
Please contact: (917)946-2974 campyeshivaofsi@gmail.com for dedication donations and/or monthly donation signup via ACH.
Post by: Joel on June 02, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
Day camp to open Jun 29
No word yet on sleepover
Post by: etech0 on June 02, 2020, 11:55:24 AM
As per Govwhich governor? cuomo?
Day camp to open Jun 29
No word yet on sleepover
Post by: Something Fishy on June 02, 2020, 11:57:39 AM
which governor? cuomo?
Yes. Just announced.
Post by: etech0 on June 02, 2020, 12:02:19 PM
Yes. Just announced.link?
Post by: Something Fishy on June 02, 2020, 12:03:58 PM
link?
.
Post by: etech0 on June 02, 2020, 12:16:04 PM
Post by: Zevwolf on June 02, 2020, 12:52:42 PM
As per GovCan every school open as a day camp?
Day camp to open Jun 29
No word yet on sleepover
Post by: etech0 on June 02, 2020, 12:55:37 PM
Can every school open as a day camp?June 29?
Or they can just schedule protests on school grounds every day from 9-4
Post by: Joel on June 02, 2020, 01:03:00 PM
Can every school open as a day camp?I dont see the difference
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 02, 2020, 06:30:31 PM
Can every school open as a day camp?Seems like camp may be like school anyways, possible restrictions like no swimming, no sports .... what’s else can they do? Learn
Post by: Zevwolf on June 02, 2020, 06:43:19 PM
Seems like camp may be like school anyways, possible restrictions like no swimming, no sports .... what’s else can they do? Learnso is he reversing this, https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/amid-ongoing-covid-19-pandemic-governor-cuomo-announces-summer-school-will-be-conducted-through
Post by: 6girls on June 02, 2020, 07:01:40 PM
Post by: jose34 on June 02, 2020, 07:05:48 PM
https://nj.gov/governor/news/news/562020/approved/20200601a.shtml
STAGE 2:
Restrictions are relaxed on activities that can be easily safeguarded.
Phased-in businesses and activities, with adherence to safeguarding and modification guidelines, include:
Outdoor dining (beginning on June 15th)
Limited in-person retail (beginning on June 15th)
Hair salons and barber shops (beginning on June 22nd)
Youth summer programs (beginning on July 6th)
In-person clinical research/labs
Limited fitness/gyms
Limited in-person government services (e.g. – Motor Vehicle Commission)
Museums/libraries
Post by: Mtrasb on June 03, 2020, 06:42:12 AM
CAMP GAN ISRAEL
Parksville NY.
I hope you had a good Yom Tov. In light of the news today by the NY Governor that day camps we will be permitted to open on June 29th this summer, we are hoping to hear good news on overnight camps soon.
If we are permitted to open we understand that there will be some needed changes regarding the amount of children that we can have per bunk, as well as other changes that are not clear as of yet. Under these new circumstances in order to accommodate all those that have already registered we have decided that we will only be able to offer one month to each camper instead of a full summer. In this way we don't have to turn away any camper who has already registered due to space.
For those campers that have registered for a full summer in our regular division and BMD division we are giving you first the choice of which month you would prefer to attend. Even though we are still waiting for an answer from the Governor and it may seem premature to go through this decision with your child, it is important that you let us know your choice now so we have enough time to make the change. This will allow us to start camp on time if we get the go ahead. In the event that there will be a new start date I will let you know as soon as possible.
I thank you for your understanding and working with us.
Rabbi Yossie Futerfas
Director
Post by: El Capitan on June 03, 2020, 04:06:06 PM
Dear Parents,
For the last 39 years כן ירבו, YSP has been the premier summer program for Talmidim leaving eighth grade and entering Mesivta. Bez"H this year we will be entering its Shnas Ho'arboyim! Parents, staff, and last but not least, the Talmidim, are all anxiously awaiting to for an update.
As previously communicated, we were waiting to hear from the state of New Jersey regarding whether we will be allowed to open our grounds. This week, the governor announced that as of now, only day camps will be granted permission to open.
We are therefore exploring our options, and are looking into a variety of camp grounds in locations that will allow us to operate safely and still give the full YSP experience.
The transitional time between elementary school and Mesivta has traditionally been spent in YSP and has B”H made a lasting impact on so many Bochurim. We look forward to be able to continue the tradition, no matter where we will be located.
We understand that everyone needs to know details very soon. We hope to be able to update you very shortly with good news. At this time, we need to hear from you regarding this change and your current application in order to help with planning this new development. Please complete this short form ASAP.
Post by: Joeymc on June 03, 2020, 04:08:51 PM
YSP Morristown sent this to parents:So they are hoping to open but not in NJ?
Dear Parents,
For the last 39 years כן ירבו, YSP has been the premier summer program for Talmidim leaving eighth grade and entering Mesivta. Bez"H this year we will be entering its Shnas Ho'arboyim! Parents, staff, and last but not least, the Talmidim, are all anxiously awaiting to for an update.
As previously communicated, we were waiting to hear from the state of New Jersey regarding whether we will be allowed to open our grounds. This week, the governor announced that as of now, only day camps will be granted permission to open.
We are therefore exploring our options, and are looking into a variety of camp grounds in locations that will allow us to operate safely and still give the full YSP experience.
The transitional time between elementary school and Mesivta has traditionally been spent in YSP and has B”H made a lasting impact on so many Bochurim. We look forward to be able to continue the tradition, no matter where we will be located.
We understand that everyone needs to know details very soon. We hope to be able to update you very shortly with good news. At this time, we need to hear from you regarding this change and your current application in order to help with planning this new development. Please complete this short form ASAP.
Post by: El Capitan on June 03, 2020, 04:24:06 PM
So they are hoping to open but not in NJ?I was in contact with someone from the leadership there and from the way he put it they're looking into every possible option...
Post by: Joeymc on June 05, 2020, 09:54:45 AM
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 05, 2020, 01:09:48 PM
https://collive.com/gov-cuomo-says-decision-on-sleepaway-camps-to-come-next-week/ (https://collive.com/gov-cuomo-says-decision-on-sleepaway-camps-to-come-next-week/)I thought "next week" was last week.
Post by: moko on June 05, 2020, 01:25:02 PM
I thought "next week" was last week.in general, people are very good at making firm and binding decisions to possibly discuss the matter at a later time
Post by: etech0 on June 05, 2020, 01:41:52 PM
Post by: El Capitan on June 05, 2020, 01:42:59 PM
He meant next wednesdayYou think so? I'm not so sure even he knows what he meant...
Post by: beeweegee on June 05, 2020, 03:45:49 PM
Post by: El Capitan on June 05, 2020, 05:19:43 PM
A very large day camp in Passaic (Summer Playland) announced today that they will not be opening this summer.I thought NJ was allowing day camps... Too many regulations?
Post by: etech0 on June 05, 2020, 05:22:09 PM
I thought NJ was allowing day camps...They are
Post by: beeweegee on June 05, 2020, 05:23:28 PM
They are+1
I thought NJ was allowing day camps... Too many regulations?These were the reasons she gave:
My foremost responsibility is to the safety of the campers and staff. There remains a complete lack of clarity from the government about the actual regulations that camps will need to function safely this summer. From what I have read from the CDC and ACA guidelines, it will be near impossible to ensure the safety of the campers and staff this year. The recommended guidelines thus far are impossible to produce in camp.
The health of the campers, staff, and their extended families is, of course, another determining factor. Though camps have been given the green light from the government to open as of July 6, it is with significant health restrictions that would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to replicate in camp. Though proper handwashing would be encouraged and signs posted everywhere about social distancing, the reality is that there would be hundreds of people, from different families and communities, converging daily. The responsibility of the counselors to keep the campers separate from each other would be overwhelming. Additionally, I have seen the unfortunate reality that some camps and schools, which have opened under these restrictive guidelines, have had to close soon after as cases of Covid-19 were diagnosed. It only takes ONE member of the Summer Playland family to cause an immediate camp closure.
I am confronting an unprecedented situation with less than a month until camps can open. There remains little official governmental guidelines and much uncertainty about how camp can realistically function. Trips, busing, and programs have all been upended and remain in limbo as every organization and company awaits, along with me, for more clarity. It is incredibly difficult to plan a functioning camp with so many unknowns.
As of yesterday, I have also been made aware that the pool facilities will be closed for the summer. This, too, points to the unfortunate reality that summer 2020 is far from usual, and that established businesses have been forced to re-evaluate how they can keep their customers safe and healthy. I recognize the responsibility of that decision, while acknowledging the large impact it has on the experience of my campers and the camp schedule.
Post by: etech0 on June 05, 2020, 06:18:54 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/aFZre1H.png)
Post by: aygart on June 05, 2020, 06:29:23 PM
Posted today:And what will have changed between now and then
(https://i.imgur.com/aFZre1H.png)
Post by: etech0 on June 05, 2020, 06:34:56 PM
And what will have changed between now and thenDon't ask me, I'm not the governer!
Post by: Jellybelly on June 05, 2020, 06:46:37 PM
And what will have changed between now and thenNothing,
it doesnt say that they’ll open, it just means he’s gonna decide then to make a committee to decide...
Post by: avromie7 on June 07, 2020, 12:37:28 AM
And what will have changed between now and thenIt's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.
Post by: aygart on June 07, 2020, 12:39:37 AM
It's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.My point exactly.
Post by: mgarfin on June 07, 2020, 12:09:39 PM
As most of you know, the question of summer overnight camp opening is still being debated in Albany. The date of overnight camp is fast approaching, and we still have not received the green light from Governor Cuomo to open camp. AJCO, a group of camp directors and a medical team (including top infectious disease doctors) have developed a detailed plan that will allow camps to open safely. This plan includes testing before camp and lockdown once camp begins. With COVID-19, BH, declining so rapidly, our medical board feels that camp is a safe place for our children.
OUR WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY IS VERY SMALL!
We need to contact the governor's office by Sunday night. We are enclosing the link to contact the governor's office. You will need to give your name and email address. It asks you for a topic and offers a drop-down menu. Please select COVID-19. It also asks for a subject. Please write Summer Overnight Camp. We are also including a sample message to the governor. You can copy and paste it or use your own.
Please have your emails submitted by Sunday Night, June 7th. The link is:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/content/governor-contact-form
.......................
To the Honorable Governor:
We appreciate all that you have been doing to keep the citizens of New York State safe. Under your guidance there were no Covid-related deaths in NYC on June 3 and the infection rates across the state keep dropping.
As a parent of an overnight camper, I am pleading with the Governor to allow overnight camps to open. My children have been home and isolated for so many months. They need camp desperately
We need to return to work soon. We cannot have our children home without structure. Sunshine, fresh air and friendships cannot be replaced by Zoom programming and screen time. Our children NEED the structure of camp. There they learn teamwork, resiliency and connect with nature. Camp provides opportunities for socialization and bolsters emotional health.
Camp directors along with top infectious disease doctors have put protocols in place to prevent the spread of the Covid-19 in camp. Our children will be tested before camp and then quarantined in camp - where they will not infect their grandparents.
The safe and logical thing to do is to green light the opening of summer overnight camps right away. We will certainly show our appreciation to you!
Please let overnight camps open.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 07, 2020, 12:28:14 PM
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 07, 2020, 03:56:02 PM
Cuomo said he is expecting more info on the Kawasaki virus this week and will make the decision on sleep away camps after he gets itThe standard response....
Post by: yesitsme on June 07, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 08, 2020, 06:32:25 AM
And what will have changed between now and thenInformation is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soon
Post by: avromie7 on June 08, 2020, 06:37:30 AM
And what will have changed between now and then
Information is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soon
It's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 08, 2020, 06:47:17 AM
Post by: Afrages6 on June 08, 2020, 07:14:08 AM
Information is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soonWhat do the two have to do with each other?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 08, 2020, 07:19:35 AM
What do the two have to do with each other?He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new information
Post by: aygart on June 08, 2020, 09:34:32 AM
He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new informationHis timeline is nonsensical.
Post by: avromie7 on June 08, 2020, 09:53:19 AM
You realized you and I made opposite statements?I'm well aware.
He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new informationThere is no sense in anything Cuomo or Murphy are doing.
Post by: puddles on June 08, 2020, 10:30:07 AM
...Fake.
Post by: Dan on June 08, 2020, 10:31:16 AM
Link to the Tweet or don't post IMHO.
Post by: aygart on June 08, 2020, 11:02:41 AM
I think we need to ban Twitter screenshots. Too many fake ones going around.
Link to the Tweet or don't post IMHO.
Keep in mind that many have twitter filtered.
Post by: stooges44 on June 09, 2020, 10:36:03 AM
(This is not for sleep away camps)
Post by: Luvtotravel on June 09, 2020, 01:29:23 PM
NY Child care and Day camp Requirementsseems quite restrictive.
(This is not for sleep away camps)
Post by: stooges44 on June 09, 2020, 01:50:28 PM
seems quite restrictive.
I don't care if my kids play blocks all day, they need to get out of the house. They need a change in environment. They need interaction. And we, need a break :D
Post by: etech0 on June 09, 2020, 01:57:21 PM
seems quite restrictive.At least the kids don't need to wear masks like they will in NJ
Post by: shapsam on June 09, 2020, 04:05:02 PM
At least the kids don't need to wear masks like they will in NJYou think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.
Post by: etech0 on June 09, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
You think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.Exactly. It means that either the camps decide not to open, or decide to open knowing that the rules will not be followed
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2020, 04:16:35 PM
Exactly. It means that either the camps decide not to open, or decide to open knowing that the rules will not be followedWhich one will depend on location.
Post by: Ergel on June 09, 2020, 04:18:02 PM
You think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.My kids wear masks at school. Obviously not the preschoolers, but my 2nd and 4th graders do.
Post by: etech0 on June 09, 2020, 05:37:31 PM
Which one will depend on location.And on the people in charge
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2020, 06:12:13 PM
And on the people in chargeMostly the same thing.
Post by: etech0 on June 09, 2020, 06:28:04 PM
Mostly the same thing.Not necessarily though
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2020, 07:14:09 PM
Not necessarily thoughIn a minority of the time.
Post by: cholent on June 10, 2020, 09:52:05 AM
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
Post by: avromie7 on June 10, 2020, 10:01:43 AM
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openThis will be a disaster.
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
Post by: coffeebean on June 10, 2020, 10:13:58 AM
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openWow!!!
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
Post by: mochjas on June 10, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
This will be a disaster.Anyone who expected them to open wasnt being realistic. There was a very good chance from a long time ago that this would be the case.....
Post by: Afrages6 on June 10, 2020, 10:22:22 AM
Anyone who expected them to open wasnt being realistic. There was a very good chance from a long time ago that this would be the case.....There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into something
Post by: mochjas on June 10, 2020, 10:25:40 AM
There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into somethingMaybe, but even if they let them open, there will be tons of regulations and camps most likely wont have time to prepare to meet their standards. So even if he lets them open, no guarantee that they will open. Day Camps in Flatbush still have not decided if they are opening or not and they got the green light already for more then a week.
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 10:37:22 AM
Wow!!!
Doubtful
Post by: avromie7 on June 10, 2020, 10:39:48 AM
Post by: aygart on June 10, 2020, 10:40:33 AM
I wonder how many camps will open in PA and never go back to NY.
Not the ones who own their property in NY
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 10, 2020, 10:44:44 AM
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't open
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
I really hope you're wrong.
Post by: yesitsme on June 10, 2020, 10:47:34 AM
I really hope you're wrong.he is right
Post by: cholent on June 10, 2020, 10:52:11 AM
I really hope you're wrong.Believe me, me too
Post by: mochjas on June 10, 2020, 11:07:52 AM
I really hope you're wrong.Schools are officially supposed to be shut in BP and they are still open so Im sure you will have underground camps if you are desperate....
Post by: mgarfin on June 10, 2020, 11:12:59 AM
Schools are officially supposed to be shut in BP and they are still open so Im sure you will have underground camps if you are desperate....
Schools in BP aren't so undercovered. I think the BLM issue moved the focus from the press away. I expect it to return in the next few days.
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 10, 2020, 03:03:42 PM
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openI have heard that the camp directors will be officially letting folks know this evening that overnight camps are closed.
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
I really really hope this is not the case m.
Post by: mochjas on June 10, 2020, 03:04:57 PM
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openWhat happened to the announcement?
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 03:06:32 PM
Or where can we see more?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 03:06:56 PM
What happened to the announcement?Its bs. There was a vn going around that someone spoke to a head counselor of a camp and he said they won't be able to open... but its 100% uncertain at this point. Speak to agudah and romimu, they are very involved and are still fighting.
Post by: mochjas on June 10, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
Was there a secret announcement to camps?There was no announcement... Cuomo didnt say anything in his Press Conference
Or where can we seen more?
Post by: Barryg on June 10, 2020, 05:00:09 PM
Was there a secret announcement to camps?maybe it was in sign language
Or where can we seen more?
Post by: mercaz1 on June 10, 2020, 05:24:27 PM
Post by: ab613 on June 10, 2020, 06:45:43 PM
rumor i heard is that a bunch of the camps are scrambling to find grounds outside of NY to open this yearNow is very late in the game
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 10, 2020, 07:36:25 PM
Post by: ah giten on June 10, 2020, 07:43:13 PM
Theyr'e looking for places like PA or VT. Some already booked.
Post by: El Capitan on June 10, 2020, 08:10:02 PM
YSP Morristown sent this to parents:Update: they're opening in PA
Dear Parents,
For the last 39 years כן ירבו, YSP has been the premier summer program for Talmidim leaving eighth grade and entering Mesivta. Bez"H this year we will be entering its Shnas Ho'arboyim! Parents, staff, and last but not least, the Talmidim, are all anxiously awaiting to for an update.
As previously communicated, we were waiting to hear from the state of New Jersey regarding whether we will be allowed to open our grounds. This week, the governor announced that as of now, only day camps will be granted permission to open.
We are therefore exploring our options, and are looking into a variety of camp grounds in locations that will allow us to operate safely and still give the full YSP experience.
The transitional time between elementary school and Mesivta has traditionally been spent in YSP and has B”H made a lasting impact on so many Bochurim. We look forward to be able to continue the tradition, no matter where we will be located.
We understand that everyone needs to know details very soon. We hope to be able to update you very shortly with good news. At this time, we need to hear from you regarding this change and your current application in order to help with planning this new development. Please complete this short form ASAP.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 09:38:07 PM
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: cholent on June 10, 2020, 11:24:55 PM
Was there a secret announcement to camps?More time for us to daven for a different outcome!
Or where can we see more?
But I still want my first HT for today's post on the matter
Post by: justaregularguy on June 10, 2020, 11:29:30 PM
Source? My brother who goes there. We’ll see if he’s right
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 11, 2020, 01:01:46 AM
Update: they're opening in PA
Camp Agudah is reportly renting somewhere in new Hampshire
Source? My brother who goes there. We’ll see if he’s right
Camps might just go out of state .
Post by: TexasTotty on June 11, 2020, 01:36:21 AM
But as I wrote on DDMS, this might just be a very elaborate color-war breakout...
Post by: Boruch Parnes on June 11, 2020, 07:47:04 AM
I heard from the son of a camp director that Cuomo told them Tuesday (I think morning) that he will announce within 48 hours that they can't open. Seemed pretty certain then but maybe something changed since. This director is already looking for private individuals to rent space in his camp over the summer.Cuomo didnt tell them anything by the meetings they were just assuming
But as I wrote on DDMS, this might just be a very elaborate color-war breakout...
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 11, 2020, 01:16:32 PM
Post by: stooges44 on June 11, 2020, 01:31:38 PM
Another day camp conversion.
:'(
Post by: mochjas on June 11, 2020, 01:36:23 PM
Post by: Boruch Parnes on June 11, 2020, 01:43:22 PM
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....thats when the cuomos guys walked out of the meeting... when they started arguing about this
Post by: flyingace on June 11, 2020, 01:50:06 PM
thats when the cuomos guys walked out of the meeting... when they started arguing about thisTotally nuts! Let's remember all this when it comes time to vote.
Post by: yungermanchik on June 11, 2020, 01:53:22 PM
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....Hence,
Cuomo (all of them)
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 11, 2020, 01:55:31 PM
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....Welcome indeed.
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
Totally nuts! Let's remember all this when it comes time to vote.They don't need your vote.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 11, 2020, 02:12:52 PM
They don't need your vote.They need the money that all the Jewish people donate to Cuomo year after year and they continue to do even after rent control. But at this point all the politicians know that no matter what they do the money will still pour in, so they aren’t really worried about alienating anyone.
Post by: ari3 on June 11, 2020, 02:22:56 PM
Post by: stooges44 on June 11, 2020, 02:28:18 PM
if everyone are so sure the decision has been made why isn't cuomo announcing it yet?
He's waiting till just before candle lighting tomorrow.
Post by: avromie7 on June 11, 2020, 02:36:16 PM
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....This has been the story for almost every single COVID related regulation in NY & NJ since the beginning.
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 02:53:07 PM
if everyone are so sure the decision has been made why isn't cuomo announcing it yet?Classic PR move is to announce bad news on Fridays. Less news coverage/backlash.
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2020, 03:14:20 PM
He's waiting till just before candle lighting tomorrow.
Taking a cue from the Lakewood Rabbonim?
Post by: Yehudaa on June 11, 2020, 03:22:18 PM
(Not directly related to camp, but I didn't know where else to post it...)
Quote
*BREAKING:* Tonight at 6:30pm all kids with BIKES AND SCOOTERS will gather in front of CONTINENTAL HALL, the kids will make a left on Bedford Ave. BLOCKING TRAFFIC till Taylor, they will make a right on Taylor and a right on Lee Avenue till Flushing Avenue.
Please bring along signs
*"KID LIVES MATTER"*
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 04:05:47 PM
I this true? Received from someone in Williamsburg.I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.
(Not directly related to camp, but I didn't know where else to post it...)
Post by: Afrages6 on June 11, 2020, 04:40:18 PM
I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.Protests don’t help with Cuomo. If he publicly caves then it bruises his ego. So he’s likely to give in to public pressure then any behind the scenes work
Post by: justaregularguy on June 11, 2020, 04:56:23 PM
There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into something
Protests don’t help with Cuomo. If he publicly caves then it bruises his ego. So he’s likely to give in to public pressure then any behind the scenes workwell which one is it? he will cave or wont ? :o
Post by: Afrages6 on June 11, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
well which one is it? he will cave or wont ? :oI’m just saying that protests aren’t gonna help. He won’t cave publicly, there is more of a chance they will open now then there would be if 10k people showed up to protest about it.
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 11, 2020, 06:56:58 PM
Post by: flyingace on June 11, 2020, 07:18:41 PM
They need the money that all the Jewish people donate to Cuomo year after year and they continue to do even after rent control. But at this point all the politicians know that no matter what they do the money will still pour in, so they aren’t really worried about alienating anyone.Seems to be pure politics at this point.
Post by: ah giten on June 11, 2020, 07:21:38 PM
I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.
lets see the huge media coverage...
Post by: Euclid on June 11, 2020, 07:43:02 PM
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.They're protesting for parks, not for camps.
lets see the huge media coverage...
Post by: grodnoking on June 11, 2020, 07:43:44 PM
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.I love it.
lets see the huge media coverage...
They can do that but not go to parks. It sends a great message of how messed up this is.
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2020, 07:53:09 PM
They're protesting for parks, not for camps.That depends which heimishe twitter account you check.
That there are so many not wearing helmets does not help the cause.
Post by: ushdadude on June 11, 2020, 08:02:49 PM
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.2 dozen kids isn't as media grabbing as 10k+
lets see the huge media coverage...
Post by: Euclid on June 11, 2020, 08:03:25 PM
That depends which heimishe twitter account you check.Let's be honest, why wouldn't chassidishe camps open? Their schools have been open for close to 2 months despite the EO.
That there are so many not wearing helmets does not help the cause.
Post by: Abebee on June 11, 2020, 08:12:46 PM
Let's be honest, why wouldn't chassidishe camps open? Their schools have been open for close to 2 months despite the EO.Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.
Post by: Euclid on June 11, 2020, 08:13:46 PM
Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.Good point. I stand corrected.
Post by: avromie7 on June 11, 2020, 09:21:30 PM
Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.
Post by: lubaby on June 11, 2020, 09:29:24 PM
Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.How difficult?
Wait outside on day 1 when a bunch of full busses roll in the front gate (don’t need a warrant to stop and enter the busses right outside), then don’t see the busses leave that night (or leave but are all empty).
Post by: avromie7 on June 11, 2020, 09:35:33 PM
How difficult?So they need to stake it out and know when to expect buses, as well as keep watch of all the exits all day long to see if cars leave. They also need to track all the cars that go in and out and try to count kids. Most camps also have a day camp on campus, so there will be kids leaving in the evening, again they would need to be counting kids.
Wait outside on day 1 when a bunch of full busses roll in the front gate (don’t need a warrant to stop and enter the busses right outside), then don’t see the busses leave that night (or leave but are all empty).
Basically, if the FBI wanted to get evidence they can, but regular cops would have a very difficult time finding evidence.
Post by: etech0 on June 11, 2020, 09:36:29 PM
Post by: avromie7 on June 11, 2020, 09:38:42 PM
What about all those huge duffel bags?They come in on a truck and unload out of view of the road. I'm not saying it's impossible, but they'd have very difficult time staking out hundreds of camps that could potentially be open and they don't know which day they're opening.
Post by: etech0 on June 11, 2020, 09:43:04 PM
They come in on a truck and unload out of view of the road. I'm not saying it's impossible, but they'd have very difficult time staking out hundreds of camps that could potentially be open and they don't know which day they're opening.I 100% hear what you're saying, but if I was a camp director I still wouldn't want to risk it.
Post by: Abebee on June 11, 2020, 09:51:32 PM
I 100% hear what you're saying, but if I was a camp director I still wouldn't want to risk it.-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.
Post by: Yehudaa on June 11, 2020, 09:55:41 PM
Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.-1
Wouldn't there be dozens (or hundreds) of delivery trucks, repairmen, etc over the summer who would all enter camp and see exactly what's going on? And not to mention neighbors and people from the surrounding towns being on high alert- they'll know in a second.
It'll be all over social media in no time, in the press shortly thereafter (news-hungry reporters at the camp entrance eager for a juicy story), and on a desk in whatever police dept enforces this stuff not too long after. And then can't the police just get a warrant?
I think it's highly unlikely (practically impossible) that any camp can stay under the radar for more than a few days with hundreds of kids.
Post by: avromie7 on June 11, 2020, 10:33:12 PM
-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.
-1All of this can easily be excused as day camp. I heard camps are planning on having full days including night activities Sunday-Friday.
Wouldn't there be dozens (or hundreds) of delivery trucks, repairmen, etc over the summer who would all enter camp and see exactly what's going on? And not to mention neighbors and people from the surrounding towns being on high alert- they'll know in a second.
It'll be all over social media in no time, in the press shortly thereafter (news-hungry reporters at the camp entrance eager for a juicy story), and on a desk in whatever police dept enforces this stuff not too long after. And then can't the police just get a warrant?
I think it's highly unlikely (practically impossible) that any camp can stay under the radar for more than a few days with hundreds of kids.
Post by: etech0 on June 11, 2020, 10:37:34 PM
All of this can easily be excused as day camp. I heard camps are planning on having full days including night activities Sunday-Friday.Depending on the neighbors, it can be very risky
Post by: flyingace on June 11, 2020, 10:38:37 PM
-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.This seems to be why they don't have permission to open. Big pressure from the locals.
Post by: Yehudaa on June 11, 2020, 11:29:51 PM
All of this can easily be excused as day camp.-1. When a non-Jewish employee posts on Facebook that it's running as a sleepaway camp, or when the electrician or plumber or building inspector sees a bunkhouse full of kids' stuff, or when the non-Jews in town talk about how they never see kids leaving the campus after night activities end, or when the UPS guy hears an announcement on the PA about early wakeup tmrw, or when the angry-at-the-system cousin rants on social media about his relatives in sleepaway camp, or when the neighbor's surveillance cameras capture the staff families driving up with a month's worth of stuff tied down on top of their Oddeysey.... it's gonna be pretty clear what's going on.
Sorry, there's just no way to slip under the radar with something this big in 2020.
Post by: ah giten on June 11, 2020, 11:31:56 PM
hope it'll work for them.
PS. I have no clue whatsoever the legal terms, so don't ask me.
Post by: El Capitan on June 12, 2020, 12:43:19 AM
Some boys camps (older boys) operate as TR (temporary residence) and are planning to open undisturbed.Any idea which camps?
hope it'll work for them.
PS. I have no clue whatsoever the legal terms, so don't ask me.
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 01:02:04 AM
run it as TR, rent it out for 1 family
that family will invite many guests with social distancing of course....... problem solved
Post by: EliJelly on June 12, 2020, 10:18:22 AM
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 12, 2020, 10:40:48 AM
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 12:21:59 PM
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/06/camp-machane-yehuda-director-theres-still-hope-for-ny-camps.htmlthis article doesn't add anything
we all believe what he believes
we all hope for what he hopes
and reality is still the same
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2020, 12:26:49 PM
this article doesn't add anything
we all believe what he believes
we all hope for what he hopes
and reality is still the same
This is TLS.
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2020, 12:27:01 PM
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 12:56:50 PM
Quote
the rumors aren't confirmed while I'm not saying chances of opening are highthat confirms the rumor, but doesn't make it into a fact
even if he will allow camps to open, they need time to prepare you cant [its vary hard to] hire/fire the last minute
Post by: ah giten on June 12, 2020, 01:00:15 PM
The hire/fire part is the easiest. All staff is ready to work, nobody has anything else.
even if he will allow camps to open, they need time to prepare you cant [its vary hard to] hire/fire the last minute
Preparation is a problem, but ok, so there won't be money spent on all garbage, and unnecessary trips, never worse.
Post by: ari3 on June 12, 2020, 01:20:03 PM
even if he will allow camps to open, they need time to prepare you cant [its vary hard to] hire/fire the last minuteCamps have mostly been hoping and preparing for the best and also preparing for the worst. Most are ready to open if they are able
Post by: flyingace on June 12, 2020, 01:29:07 PM
(https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/75690E8A-B1BA-4912-BAA1-2124A3552EC1.png)Not simple. Daycamps have already paid non-refundable deposits for many parks, trips etc.
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2020, 01:31:07 PM
Not simple. Daycamps have already paid non-refundable deposits for many parks, trips etc.
Okay, why does that change anything? Do you really think that the BD did not think of that possibility?
Post by: flyingace on June 12, 2020, 01:38:27 PM
Okay, why does that change anything? Do you really think that the BD did not think of that possibility?Don't know if they did, but would they be required to lose that money more than the parents?
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2020, 01:46:38 PM
Don't know if they did, but would they be required to lose that money more than the parents?
It is not a partnership but rather a service.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 12, 2020, 02:37:57 PM
Wonder if NY will still hold out...
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 12, 2020, 02:53:16 PM
Post by: username on June 12, 2020, 02:55:05 PM
Post by: yaakov35 on June 12, 2020, 05:08:38 PM
Guess there goes that
Post by: El Capitan on June 12, 2020, 05:12:11 PM
Post by: mgarfin on June 12, 2020, 05:15:35 PM
News: New York health officials will block summer sleep away camps this year, as per Health Commissioner Howard Zucker.
— Nick Reisman (@NickReisman) June 12, 2020
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 05:15:39 PM
1271547389317468169[/tweet]]mazel tov it's official[/URL](http://[tweet)
NEW: sleepaway camps canceled for 2020 in New York. @NYGovCuomo and his Health Dept made the decision today. #NBC4NY pic.twitter.com/nlBqoipRwv
— Andrew Siff (@andrewsiff4NY) June 12, 2020
Post by: mgarfin on June 12, 2020, 05:20:47 PM
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sleepaway-camps-wont-open-in-new-york-this-summer/2459016/
Guess there goes that
Hours before the decision was made officials, Orthodox Jewish children took to the streets of Brooklyn Friday, asking Gov. Andrew Cuomo to allow sleepaway camps to reopen for the summer
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2020, 05:23:37 PM
All is not lost yet.Lol, so much for that.
Post by: gubevo18 on June 12, 2020, 05:26:12 PM
Post by: stooges44 on June 12, 2020, 05:26:46 PM
Is it close enough to candle lighting?News: New York health officials will block summer sleep away camps this year, as per Health Commissioner Howard Zucker.
— Nick Reisman (@NickReisman) June 12, 2020
Called it.
And yes because some are making Shabbos in an hour
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 12, 2020, 05:32:51 PM
Lol, so much for that.They can still try legal options. No idea if they would hold water.
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2020, 05:34:10 PM
They can still try legal options. No idea if they would hold water.GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.
But maybe one of these times people will realize the true cost of NY living.
Post by: Shmobaum on June 12, 2020, 05:37:01 PM
GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...
But maybe one of these times people will realize the true cost of NY living.
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 05:37:24 PM
GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.FTFY
But maybe one of these times people will realize the true cost of Democrat living.
Post by: EliJelly on June 12, 2020, 05:39:35 PM
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 05:41:25 PM
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?the will first try to setup the kids in Albany
Post by: mgarfin on June 12, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?
From what I hear there is very little options.
Still some hope for teenage camps at do not have activities other than learning.
Those can maybe operate as temporary residents in a dorm style school
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2020, 05:43:13 PM
Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...What would Georgia be like had that been the case?
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2020, 05:43:27 PM
Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...Then GA would be a blue state today.
Post by: mgarfin on June 12, 2020, 05:49:41 PM
1 decisions given out right before weekend
2 Cuomo sends DOH commissioner Howard Zucker to announce the ban
Post by: EliJelly on June 12, 2020, 05:50:59 PM
How do you know the politics is involvedWhat does he gain politically?
1 decisions given out right before weekend
2 Cuomo sends DOH commissioner Howard Zucker to announce the ban
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 12, 2020, 07:14:41 PM
FTFYWatch for a mass exodus from NY and CA.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 12, 2020, 07:15:32 PM
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?Some camps have already set up in PA.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 12, 2020, 07:35:31 PM
Post by: ah giten on June 12, 2020, 07:58:12 PM
For the agudah to release such a statement...Wow!
Post by: how on June 13, 2020, 10:26:55 PM
Post by: Afrages6 on June 13, 2020, 10:32:16 PM
Seems pretty black and white to me
Post by: how on June 13, 2020, 10:36:49 PM
https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-06-12_overnight_camps_statement.htmThanks - Thats a statement not an order
Seems pretty black and white to me
Post by: Afrages6 on June 13, 2020, 10:39:39 PM
Thanks - Thats a statement not an orderWhat order are you referring too?
Post by: yesitsme on June 13, 2020, 10:45:12 PM
For the agudah to release such a statement...https://agudah.org/summer-camps-shuttered-for-2020-statement-by-agudath-israel/
Post by: ari3 on June 14, 2020, 12:49:18 AM
https://agudah.org/summer-camps-shuttered-for-2020-statement-by-agudath-israel/what might "whatever remaining options may be available to them" be?
Also what took them till now to finally publicly say something about the sickening double standard the dictators have been applying?
They reference the government using regulations as a sword against religion. Why haven't they spoken up about that sooner? If they believe that to be the case why aren't they involved in the lawsuits against discrimination?
Post by: aygart on June 14, 2020, 12:58:43 AM
If they believe that to be the case why aren't they involved in the lawsuits against discrimination?To address this point only, this may be because those suits were all doomed to failure. That may have changed recently.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 14, 2020, 01:02:59 AM
what might "whatever remaining options may be available to them" be?It’s been the strategy of the Jews in NY forever when it came to dealing with the NYS government. Give lots of money and play nice and hopefully we get something in return. I guess the agudah has finally had enough playing nice which shows how ridiculous they think the governor is being.
Also what took them till now to finally publicly say something about the sickening double standard the dictators have been applying?
They reference the government using regulations as a sword against religion. Why haven't they spoken up about that sooner? If they believe that to be the case why aren't they involved in the lawsuits against discrimination?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 14, 2020, 01:05:17 AM
$$$. Lunch programs.... their making a killing now during corona. That's why they didn't complain
Also what took them till now to finally publicly say something about the sickening double standard the dictators have been applying?
Post by: grodnoking on June 14, 2020, 01:06:21 AM
It’s been the strategy of the Jews in NY forever when it came to dealing with the NYS government. Give lots of money and play nice and hopefully we get something in return. I guess the agudah has finally had enough playing nice which shows how ridiculous they think the governor is being.Maybe if Satmer takes the same road a Agudah we can flip this state red.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 14, 2020, 01:06:23 AM
$$$. Lunch programs.... their making a killing now during corona. That's why they didn't complainThe agudah making a killing during corona? What even...
Post by: aygart on June 14, 2020, 01:07:42 AM
The agudah making a killing during corona? What even...#facts
Post by: yaakov35 on June 14, 2020, 01:09:33 AM
The agudah making a killing during corona? What even...Not necessarily that specific organization, but their counterparts. Yes frum schools are making a killing now on various government programs and thats why they weren't making a stink. You don't bite the hand that feeds u....
Post by: Afrages6 on June 14, 2020, 01:10:10 AM
#factsThat they made a killing?
Post by: aygart on June 14, 2020, 01:11:05 AM
That they made a killing?No.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 14, 2020, 01:17:51 AM
Not necessarily that specific organization, but their counterparts. Yes frum schools are making a killing now on various government programs and thats why they weren't making a stink. You don't bite the hand that feeds u....I was referring to the agudah specifically. And you’re way overrating how much money these schools are making
Post by: shapsam on June 14, 2020, 01:22:53 AM
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
Post by: yaakov35 on June 14, 2020, 01:34:43 AM
I was referring to the agudah specifically. And you’re way overrating how much money these schools are makingSure
Post by: Toasted on June 14, 2020, 06:49:57 PM
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
Post by: S209 on June 14, 2020, 06:55:22 PM
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.You bring up a fair point but there are an awful lot of people who are desperate for their children to have a nice normal summer with friends in a sleep away environment.
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
Post by: yesitsme on June 14, 2020, 08:44:53 PM
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.I cant think about those that live in Williamsburg apartments, those that live in the outskirts okay it will pass but in the city, I'm glad i'm not there and I feel bad for them
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 14, 2020, 09:35:16 PM
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
If the seminaries shut it will be a win win situation.
Post by: mochjas on June 14, 2020, 09:38:52 PM
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.all those things were early on and it was understandable why they were shut. Those are all up and running now except school because there was no point. Most feel like we have COVID under control in NY and camp’s shouldn’t be a problem so why are they shutting?
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
If someone can’t afford it they shouldn’t send their kids. They have a great excuse not to send this year if they are worried about peer pressure
Post by: stooges44 on June 14, 2020, 10:14:54 PM
Dear Parents,
This is just a reminder that today is the last day to back out of camp for this summer and still receive a refund.
We are looking forward to implementing the amazing program that we have planned (and are in the midst of modifying and expanding due to the late notice of all things camp related…)
Although it is very hard to tie up all the loose ends if camp in just a few short weeks, we are making the tremendous effort to do so because your children and our children are in desperate need of a fun and structured summer experience. We (and many other camps in the community,) know that there is a good chance that we will be operating at a financial loss this year and will be happy just to break even. The extraordinary costs of the additional staffing for the smaller bunks, maintenance workers to sanitize the building and specialty staff to keep the campers entertained without our many trips, far outweigh the regular cost of the trips that we are not doing this year.
We are all prepared to go ahead anyway because we feel an achrayus to the children and parents of our community. All we ask of you is to team up with us in creating a positive and upbeat attitude that focuses on all the fun things we can do, with realistic expectations as to what is and isn’t feasible, while realizing that we are all in this together – Creating the best summer experience possible or our children!
Looking forward to working together towards a summer that is out of this world!!
Leeba Brisk
Elisheva Segelman
Post by: ari3 on June 14, 2020, 11:35:35 PM
If the seminaries shut it will be a win win situation.win for who?
For the seminaries? definitely not!
For the parents that want to send? also not
For the girls that are looking forward to go? also not
For the parents that don't want to send but send anyway because of peer pressure? So for these sorry people that can't do what they feel is right because of what others do you are happy if everyone else loses out?
Post by: Palm5 on June 14, 2020, 11:44:13 PM
Post by: Jellybelly on June 14, 2020, 11:49:31 PM
Isn’t Satmar going up tomorrow or was that a rumor?I also got that text, would be into watch that play out
Post by: EliJelly on June 14, 2020, 11:53:00 PM
Isn’t Satmar going up tomorrow or was that a rumor?Going up where?
Post by: grodnoking on June 14, 2020, 11:56:30 PM
For the parents that don't want to send but send anyway because of peer pressure? So for these sorry people that can't do what they feel is right because of what others do you are happy if everyone else loses out?
For those parents who are forced to send their daughter to seminary because the world decided that if the girl didn't go, there must be something wrong with her and no one will date her.
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 15, 2020, 10:24:10 AM
win for who?How many seminary age children have you been through or are you just 23 yourself?
For the seminaries? definitely not!
For the parents that want to send? also not
For the girls that are looking forward to go? also not
For the parents that don't want to send but send anyway because of peer pressure? So for these sorry people that can't do what they feel is right because of what others do you are happy if everyone else loses out?
Post by: etech0 on June 15, 2020, 10:25:17 AM
Do you know anyone who went to Seminary in the US, or skipped altogether, and still got married? I can make a list.
For those parents who are forced to send their daughter to seminary because the world decided that if the girl didn't go, there must be something wrong with her and no one will date her.
Post by: S209 on June 15, 2020, 10:30:46 AM
Do you know anyone who went to Seminary in the US, or skipped altogether, and still got married? I can make a list.My wife attended Sem in the US, as did all of my sisters and sisters-in-law. For some reason my father preferred it ;). All married :)
I can make you a list with hundreds.
Post by: stooges44 on June 15, 2020, 01:43:18 PM
Post by: shie123 on June 15, 2020, 02:49:53 PM
Just wondering is sleep away camp mostly a Jewish thing?
Post by: lifetimedeals on June 15, 2020, 03:12:05 PM
Could be it was discussed already I didn't see.No
Just wondering is sleep away camp mostly a Jewish thing?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 15, 2020, 03:16:21 PM
NoI thought most camps are jewish even if not frum and the rest are religious or boy scouts.
Post by: CountValentine on June 15, 2020, 03:34:22 PM
I thought most camps are jewish even if not frum and the rest are religious or boy scouts."Did you know that U.S. summer camps were recently estimated to be a $15 billion industry nationwide? And that figure doesn’t even take into account just how incredible they’ve become within the Millennial age."
Post by: ari3 on June 15, 2020, 08:56:56 PM
"Did you know that U.S. summer camps were recently estimated to be a $15 billion industry nationwide? And that figure doesn’t even take into account just how incredible they’ve become within the Millennial age."what did come into play with Cuomo was that most of the non Jewish and non frum camps had already cancelled by the time Cuomo made the decision so in essence he was really fighting with only the frum camps
Post by: mgarfin on June 15, 2020, 09:23:08 PM
No
Is that the case for New York too?
Post by: CountValentine on June 15, 2020, 09:27:30 PM
what did come into play with Cuomo was that most of the non Jewish and non frum camps had already cancelled by the time Cuomo made the decision so in essence he was really fighting with only the frum campsSo the others were using common sense?
Post by: etech0 on June 15, 2020, 09:28:16 PM
Post by: mgarfin on June 15, 2020, 09:35:03 PM
So the others were using common sense?
They don't see counting education through the summer a critical necessity. And yes we think camp is a part of education system.
Having kids definitely teenagers home all summer is a major problem.
Post by: CountValentine on June 15, 2020, 09:37:20 PM
They don't see counting education through the summer a critical necessity. And yes we think camp is a part of education system.I can see the education part being a major issue.
Having kids definitely teenagers home all summer is a major problem.
The teenagers being home I don't see as an issue.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 15, 2020, 09:37:46 PM
So the others were using common sense?Camp is an integral piece of development for lots of kids.
Post by: CountValentine on June 15, 2020, 09:39:42 PM
Camp is an integral piece of development for lots of kids.So is school, sports and many other things that were cancelled.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 15, 2020, 09:41:31 PM
So is school, sports and many other things that were cancelled.School can be somewhat replaced by zoom, lots of people I know who gained so much from their summers in camp wouldn’t be able to replace it with a couple zoom sessions a day.
Post by: CountValentine on June 15, 2020, 09:45:11 PM
School can be somewhat replaced by zoom, lots of people I know who gained so much from their summers in camp wouldn’t be able to replace it with a couple zoom sessions a day.I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.
Catholic camps are an integral part of their teachings. Just like when Churches were closed they might not agree but understand why.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 15, 2020, 09:47:22 PM
I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.But they had plans which were prepared and looked over by lots of different people which the governor and his team didn’t even bother to look at. That’s where all of this anger stems from.
Catholic camps are an integral part of their teachings. Just like when Churches were closed they might not agree but understand why.
Post by: gozalim on June 15, 2020, 09:58:16 PM
I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.when schools closed for a month or three in march, we shut them ahead of gov guidance, for good reason.
Catholic camps are an integral part of their teachings. Just like when Churches were closed they might not agree but understand why.
this despite the religious imperative of schools being of greater urgency than camps.
the reasons in march no longer apply logically;
they had plans which were prepared and looked over by lots of different people which the governor and his team didn’t even bother to look at. That’s where all of this anger stems from.this mayor/governor are just enjoying flexing authoritarian muscle. kinda like trump and the protests
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 10:15:54 AM
Post by: JunkYardUnz on June 16, 2020, 11:58:57 AM
Most camp announcements I've seen have included some kind of plan for prevention of infections. What I haven't seen is any comprehensive plan for how infections will be handled if they do occur during camp. Has anyone seen any plan published from any of the overnight camps, especially the new ones which have popped up to fill the void?I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 12:06:52 PM
Most camp announcements I've seen have included some kind of plan for prevention of infections. What I haven't seen is any comprehensive plan for how infections will be handled if they do occur during camp. Has anyone seen any plan published from any of the overnight camps, especially the new ones which have popped up to fill the void?Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?
I'm sure they have one and anyway what are the chances of an in camp outbreak with the iron clad rules they have?
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 12:18:16 PM
I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.
Parents would be expected to drive 24 hours each way to pick up their kids in case of an outbreak? Or is camp providing the transportation?
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 12:26:01 PM
Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?
I'm sure they have one and anyway what are the chances of an in camp outbreak with the iron clad rules they have?
A) You're assuming the rules will be kept and that they'll be effective. I think there are too many moving pieces to a camp to guarantee wholesale compliance, and that's with a situation that is more established than a virus we know little about. Given the unknowns, I have no idea what the chances of an outbreak in an overnight camp are, which is why...
B) a published emergency response plan is absolutely necessary. As a parent, why would you just assume camp has a plan? And why wouldn't you want to know what it is, in case it involves you having to pick up your kid halfway across the country?
Post by: shapsam on June 16, 2020, 12:36:06 PM
Same study looked at infection pairs from a national database to see who was infecting who.
— Alasdair Munro (@apsmunro) June 15, 2020
Almost all transmission adult to adult. Minimal child to adult or child to child.
6/9 pic.twitter.com/Ew0ysZe1dD
Post by: Jellybelly on June 16, 2020, 12:40:57 PM
I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.Who exactly does the exclude?
Anyone besides for International campers?
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 16, 2020, 12:56:35 PM
Who exactly does the exclude?
Anyone besides for International campers?
LA/West coast.
And setting an expectation that parents can then drive 24 hours there, and then somehow also drive 24 hours home in case of an outbreak is crazy.
This should be capped at 8 hrs/16 hours roundtrip if they want any feasible way to make sure kids can get out within 24 hours.
Post by: avromie7 on June 16, 2020, 01:04:12 PM
Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?The chances that it happens in an individual camp are quite low, the chances that it happens in at least 1 or frum camps nationwide is almost guaranteed.
I'm sure they have one and anyway what are the chances of an in camp outbreak with the iron clad rules they have?
I would say this is probably because people are most likely to live with someone in their age group, a 55 y/o is most likely to live with a 55 y/o. If you notice, a 55 y/o is more likely to transmit to or from a 25 y/o than to or from a 40 y/o. The most likely reason is because a 55 y/o is more likely to have a 25 y/o child living with them or visiting often than a 40 y/o. From what I see, all this chart shows (at least about adults) is who is most likely to live with whom.Same study looked at infection pairs from a national database to see who was infecting who.
— Alasdair Munro (@apsmunro) June 15, 2020
Almost all transmission adult to adult. Minimal child to adult or child to child.
6/9 pic.twitter.com/Ew0ysZe1dD
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 02:42:30 PM
The chances that it happens in an individual camp are quite low, the chances that it happens in at least 1 or frum camps nationwide is almost guaranteed. I would say this is probably because people are most likely to live with someone in their age group, a 55 y/o is most likely to live with a 55 y/o. If you notice, a 55 y/o is more likely to transmit to or from a 25 y/o than to or from a 40 y/o. The most likely reason is because a 55 y/o is more likely to have a 25 y/o child living with them or visiting often than a 40 y/o. From what I see, all this chart shows (at least about adults) is who is most likely to live with whom.If a 55 yr old most likely lives with another 55 yr old and 22 with 22 then would we have a shidduch crisis?
Post by: ari3 on June 16, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
B) a published emergency response plan is absolutely necessary. As a parent, why would you just assume camp has a plan? And why wouldn't you want to know what it is, in case it involves you having to pick up your kid halfway across the country?
having an emergency response plan is a necessity. having one publicly available for the curios anonymous people on the internet is not. I assume if a parent with valid concerns contacts them they would be glad to provide more information
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 03:38:21 PM
having an emergency response plan is a necessity. having one publicly available for the curios anonymous people on the internet is not. I assume if a parent with valid concerns contacts them they would be glad to provide more informationWell said. If it was my job to professionally design plans I would have zero interest in the internet peanut gallery picking it apart. Even if it was one as lovely as DDF
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 04:23:35 PM
Well said. If it was my job to professionally design plans I would have zero interest in the internet peanut gallery picking it apart. Even if it was one as lovely as DDF
By the same premise, if I was running a camp I wouldn't want to post my learning curriculum, my hashkafos, or my activities, because maybe people will find fault with them.
having an emergency response plan is a necessity. having one publicly available for the curios anonymous people on the internet is not. I assume if a parent with valid concerns contacts them they would be glad to provide more information
Frankly, this aren't normal times and we're not talking about posting active shooter response scenarios on the off chance a camp c"v is attacked. We're in the midst of a pandemic that no one quite understands, and every single camp should be proactive in letting parents know what the parents can expect from the camp and what the camp expects of the parents in case of an outbreak. If the camp isn't communicating that to the parents on their own, every single parent should be calling the camp office and finding out before paying the camp a penny.
From the camps' perspective, it seems inefficient to explain the plan 200-1000 times over the phone to individual parents. I'd also be concerned if parents aren't reaching out to me as a camp administrator, because it shows a lack of awareness (or caring) for the sensitive realities. There's a good chance I'll need their cooperation if kids need to be sent home or picked up earlier than planned, and parents who aren't prepared are liabilities.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 04:34:40 PM
By the same premise, if I was running a camp I wouldn't want to post my learning curriculum, my hashkafos, or my activities, because maybe people will find fault with them.Most camps don't post detailed descriptions of their heashkafos and curriculum... just enough to make it sound fun and exciting. These plans are different as you have many parents thinking emotionally instead of logically and seeing such a plan would just cause them to panic.
Frankly, this aren't normal times and we're not talking about posting active shooter response scenarios on the off chance a camp c"v is attacked. We're in the midst of a pandemic that no one quite understands, and every single camp should be proactive in letting parents know what the parents can expect from the camp and what the camp expects of the parents in case of an outbreak. If the camp isn't communicating that to the parents on their own, every single parent should be calling the camp office and finding out before paying the camp a penny.
From the camps' perspective, it seems inefficient to explain the plan 200-1000 times over the phone to individual parents. I'd also be concerned if parents aren't reaching out to me as a camp administrator, because it shows a lack of awareness (or caring) for the sensitive realities. There's a good chance I'll need their cooperation if kids need to be sent home or picked up earlier than planned, and parents who aren't prepared are liabilities.
I think they would email upon request not repeat over the phone.
As to your second point you may not have noticed but frankly many parents don't care.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 04:59:38 PM
you may not have noticed but frankly many parents don't care.
Yea... I don't understand this at all. Considering all we don't know about the long term impact of this virus, how can parents not care?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 16, 2020, 05:28:13 PM
. Most people had, my whole family had, and I'm sending my kids to camp no issue and so are all my neighbors.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 05:41:38 PM
Seems like there's a disconnect here with people who don't live in NYC area
There definitely seems to be a disconnect, but I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other. I didn't say don't send the kids to camp. Why wouldn't you want to know how the camp would react to a potential outbreak?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 16, 2020, 06:18:04 PM
Yea... I don't understand this at all. Considering all we don't know about the long term impact of this virus, how can parents not care?
They sure do care. They care enough to give their kids the opportunity to go to camp and enjoy themselves after 3-4 months of misery
There definitely seems to be a disconnect, but I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other. I didn't say don't send the kids to camp. Why wouldn't you want to know how the camp would react to a potential outbreak?
Because what's the likelihood of an outbreak? Just as much as a flu outbreak or some other virus and nobody ever wanted to know the plan for how to react to that.
Don't kid yourself but if there won't be an outbreak in day camp there won't all of a sudden be one in camp.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 16, 2020, 06:48:15 PM
There definitely seems to be a disconnect, but I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other. I didn't say don't send the kids to camp. Why wouldn't you want to know how the camp would react to a potential outbreak?Outbreak? Its really not a big deal for kids and considering they've been home for last 3 months its a risk plenty of parents are willing to take.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 06:59:25 PM
They sure do care. They care enough to give their kids the opportunity to go to camp and enjoy themselves after 3-4 months of misery
Because what's the likelihood of an outbreak? Just as much as a flu outbreak or some other virus and nobody ever wanted to know the plan for how to react to that.
Don't kid yourself but if there won't be an outbreak in day camp there won't all of a sudden be one in camp.
"3-4 months of misery" and we still have comparisons to "a flu outbreak or some other virus?"
I don't disagree about the likelihood of a day camp outbreak, but I fail to see how one exempts the other. Also, a day camp is local, so outbreak response is fairly simple. Overnight camps are a little more complex than that.
Post by: etech0 on June 16, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 07:02:10 PM
Outbreak? Its really not a big deal for kids and considering they've been home for last 3 months its a risk plenty of parents are willing to take.
Again, I'm not asking about sending or not sending. I understand the reasoning for sending, and I find myself in a situation where I'm seriously considering sending to a local overnight camp. I just want to know why taking risks means ignoring any and all responsibilities and due diligence.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 07:03:17 PM
How do we know that camps have not sent out their plan/protocol to their registered campers?
We don't. I said I haven't seen it and asked if anyone had. All I'm getting is crickets and arguments about why they either don't need to have one, or why no one should know about them.
Post by: etech0 on June 16, 2020, 07:05:51 PM
We don't. I said I haven't seen it and asked if anyone had. All I'm getting is crickets and arguments about why they either don't need to have one, or why no one should know about them.I don't have kids enrolled in sleepaway camp, but it's possible that they are still clarifying regulations and recommendations and will send something out soon. idk
Post by: iluv2travel on June 16, 2020, 07:32:20 PM
"3-4 months of misery" and we still have comparisons to "a flu outbreak or some other virus?"
I don't disagree about the likelihood of a day camp outbreak, but I fail to see how one exempts the other. Also, a day camp is local, so outbreak response is fairly simple. Overnight camps are a little more complex than that.
Glad to hear your kids had a grand time. Mine were b"h not miserable because we were able to afford leaving the city for the last 2 months, however I know loads of kids who live in cramped quarters and yes it is/was very difficult for them and their parents. They were very very much looking forward to getting a break by going to camp.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.
Post by: S209 on June 16, 2020, 07:38:27 PM
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.LOL
Post by: ExGingi on June 16, 2020, 07:40:29 PM
"3-4 months of misery" and we still have comparisons to "a flu outbreak or some other virus?"
I don't disagree about the likelihood of a day camp outbreak, but I fail to see how one exempts the other. Also, a day camp is local, so outbreak response is fairly simple. Overnight camps are a little more complex than that.
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 07:48:14 PM
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
Again, I understand the reasoning behind sending. I don't understand the reasoning for not asking for outbreak contingencies.
As an aside, the camp that was supposed to only be for kids from CH is now having kids come from PA, NJ, DE, MD, and FL (possibly more, those are just what I know). So that 70% is nowhere close to 70% anymore. You have kids from many communities, and kids flying in. Not saying that will change anything for most parents, but the facts are different than what many believe.
Post by: S209 on June 16, 2020, 07:48:49 PM
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 08:09:04 PM
Glad to hear your kids had a grand time.
Uh, what? How'd you get that from what I wrote?
Mine were b"h not miserable because we were able to afford leaving the city for the last 2 months, however I know loads of kids who live in cramped quarters and yes it is/was very difficult for them and their parents. They were very very much looking forward to getting a break by going to camp.
Great. Again, nothing to do with anything.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.
This is just patently false. I can't believe that anyone still believes this at this point in the game. There is absolutely no data anywhere that suggests that this is even remotely true.
Post by: ExGingi on June 16, 2020, 08:11:32 PM
Again, I understand the reasoning behind sending. I don't understand the reasoning for not asking for outbreak contingencies.
As an aside, the camp that was supposed to only be for kids from CH is now having kids come from PA, NJ, DE, MD, and FL (possibly more, those are just what I know). So that 70% is nowhere close to 70% anymore. You have kids from many communities, and kids flying in. Not saying that will change anything for most parents, but the facts are different than what many believe.
I'm aware. The 70%+ is for the Crown Heights kids. They aren't getting infected or infecting anyone. As matter of fact I think there's an argument to be made that an outbreak is less likely than a flu outbreak in any given year.
Post by: Joeymc on June 16, 2020, 08:15:46 PM
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.In which state is the camp your child is going to?
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
Post by: ExGingi on June 16, 2020, 08:47:18 PM
In which state is the camp your child is going to?
Was originally planned for MD. Not sure if that will actually be the location.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 09:09:44 PM
Y'all got to check out this Allan Shernan song... worst doomsday scenario with Corona can not possibly be worse than this.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.
https://youtu.be/EzErh_s62Wk
Post by: iluv2travel on June 16, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
Uh, what? How'd you get that from what I wrote?
From the quotes on 3-4 months of misery. Sorry of I misunderstood.
Great. Again, nothing to do with anything.
It does as you are arguing against having camp. Just telling you why so many are desperate to send.
This is just patently false. I can't believe that anyone still believes this at this point in the game. There is absolutely no data anywhere that suggests that this is even remotely true.
Which part is false??? That I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak? I would be. That flu or other virus has the same likelihood of breaking out as Corona? Well, what data do you have to back up stating otherwise?
Post by: Lurker on June 16, 2020, 10:22:42 PM
From the quotes on 3-4 months of misery. Sorry of I misunderstood.
The quotes were around your words, illustrating that anyone who has just gone through 3-4 months of misery should know better than to compare this to the flu or some other virus.
It does as you are arguing against having camp. Just telling you why so many are desperate to send.
I'm not arguing against having camp. Please show me what I wrote that led you to believe that. I clearly stated I understand why camps are opening and why parents are ok with the risks of sending them. I do not understand the possibility of camps lacking clear plans in case of an outbreak, nor the parents' apparent willingness to ignore the lack of plans.
Which part is false??? That I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak? I would be. That flu or other virus has the same likelihood of breaking out as Corona? Well, what data do you have to back up stating otherwise?
I don't know why you'd be concerned with a flu outbreak in the middle of the summer. I'm not saying you aren't concerned, but I don't know why you would be. What's patently false is that a Covid outbreak is as likely as the flu in the summer or "some other virus." As for data, go to Google and search "pandemic." You may get a few hits.
Post by: El Capitan on June 16, 2020, 10:43:21 PM
Quote
Dear Parents,
Over the past 24 hours we have had some inquires about a day camp option. We have a very devoted staff that feel extremely motivated to make it happen and be able to give the kids a chance to spend most of their week in Gan Yisroel.
This is a brand new idea for us and we need to know how many parents would be interested in this option. The day would start at 10:00am and end at 9:00pm Sunday through Thursday and half day on Friday giving the boys a true full day of camp. We would serve the boys 3 meals a day plus snack. Camp would start on July 6 and run through August 26. It would be for boys in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th grade.The boys would have a full program of learning classes, variety of sports and leagues, swimming, boating, biking, arts and crafts, cook outs even experience a Gan Yisroel color war and lots of in house entertainment. We are looking into offering bus transportation from 3 or 4 central locations in the Catskill area.
If there are any boys that may have non immediate family that live upstate for the summer perhaps they can stay with them. We are working feverishly on all the details of how to make a smooth transition from overnight camp to day camp. It really depends on how many families are interested in order to make it work. Again we stress how we will need a few days to see how many people get back to us and confirm that they are indeed interested and than we can open registration for Gan Yisroel day camp.
If you are interested in this please email us at: cginewyork@gmail.com
Rabbi Yossie Futerfas
Post by: iluv2travel on June 16, 2020, 11:38:12 PM
The quotes were around your words, illustrating that anyone who has just gone through 3-4 months of misery should know better than to compare this to the flu or some other virus.
I'm not arguing against having camp. Please show me what I wrote that led you to believe that. I clearly stated I understand why camps are opening and why parents are ok with the risks of sending them. I do not understand the possibility of camps lacking clear plans in case of an outbreak, nor the parents' apparent willingness to ignore the lack of plans.
I don't know why you'd be concerned with a flu outbreak in the middle of the summer. I'm not saying you aren't concerned, but I don't know why you would be. What's patently false is that a Covid outbreak is as likely as the flu in the summer or "some other virus." As for data, go to Google and search "pandemic." You may get a few hits.
All camps already said they have plans in place even before the ban was announced. The fact that they haven't made it public doesn't mean that they won't disclose it to you upon request. I would assume they would be fine to do so. Let me know if you find otherwise.
Just to correct myself, I would be concerned with flu OR any other type of outbreak. And there can be others. It just doesn't occur to us that it may happen. So perhaps seasonal flu specifically is not of concern, but that is not to say there aren't any others that MAY be of concern.
Google can be my/your friend but it is NOT my book of absolute truths and facts. Sorry but if Google tells me that there is 90% chance of coronavirus outbreak at a sleepaway camp I will not take that as a fact. A journal of science with hard data showing that would be acceptable.
In either case, my position is that we will all find out together if G-d forbid any sleepaway camp has an outbreak as there will still be thousands of kids attending in out of state camps (as well as in state but call it something else). My gut feeling is there won't be any (b"eh). But again, time will tell.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 01:05:21 AM
Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.
If you'd rather wait for a manufactured vaccine, talk to me no sooner than Trumps 2nd year of his 2nd term.
Post by: RebTuvia on June 17, 2020, 01:19:30 AM
Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
Its called "Herd Immunity" when most of the herd had the disease the chances of others contracting it is very low. Look it up.
Post by: yfr bachur on June 17, 2020, 11:50:38 AM
Its called "Herd Immunity" when most of the herd had the disease the chances of others contracting it is very low. Look it up.
Exposure≠Had the Disease≠Herd Immunity
Post by: Dan on June 17, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 12:02:18 PM
Exposure is meaningless.Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
Post by: yfr bachur on June 17, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
Exposure is meaningless.
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
I don't think that even that is enough. If the virus doesn't enter the persons body, they won't have antibodies/immunity. It doesn't matter how many people they were exposed to.
Post by: Dan on June 17, 2020, 12:46:47 PM
I don't think that even that is enough. If the virus doesn't enter the persons body, they won't have antibodies/immunity. It doesn't matter how many people they were exposed to.Exposure to someone contagious, meaning they got it and have antibodies.
Post by: Ergel on June 17, 2020, 02:20:01 PM
Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?Love how we are now defining experts
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Love how we are now defining experts
Ain domeh shmiah lere'iyah, and I saw that the oilam cancelled Covid. Null and void. And if you haven't had it yet, you're covered by (I) herd (there's) immunity, which is kinda like botul b'shishim, but for rational thoughts and facts.
Post by: EliJelly on June 17, 2020, 02:35:14 PM
Love how we are now defining experts
Ain domeh shmiah lere'iyah, and I saw that the oilam cancelled Covid. Null and void. And if you haven't had it yet, you're covered by (I) herd (there's) immunity, which is kinda like botul b'shishim, but for rational thoughts and facts.You missed the context, he didn't claim he's an expert. He questioned whether someone else is.
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 02:44:51 PM
You missed the context, he didn't claim he's an expert. He questioned whether someone else is.
Nope, @Dan got dismissed because he doesn't live in a place that was hard hit, so he must not be able to read or think rationally. I understood perfectly.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 02:58:27 PM
Its called "Herd Immunity" when most of the herd had the disease the chances of others contracting it is very low. Look it up.Right, exposure to someone with a virus means you’re immune because of herd immunity, I don’t even have to look it up. You should change your handle to DrTuvia.
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.And your source has showed you that anybody who was exposed to someone who had a virus and didn’t get it that time can’t get it from someone else with the virus? Got it. Thanks for your medical source.
If you'd rather wait for a manufactured vaccine, talk to me no sooner than Trumps 2nd year of his 2nd term.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 03:01:45 PM
Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?My bad, I didn’t realize people who live in CH are the true experts, I’ve been listening to these idiot doctors all along. Forgot they “don’t know anything”. Because Cuomo and the media.
Post by: ari3 on June 17, 2020, 03:35:21 PM
My bad, I didn’t realize people who live in CH are the true experts, I’ve been listening to these idiot doctors all along. Forgot they “don’t know anything”. Because Cuomo and the media.
Ain domeh shmiah lere'iyah, and I saw that the oilam cancelled Covid. Null and void. And if you haven't had it yet, you're covered by (I) herd (there's) immunity, which is kinda like botul b'shishim, but for rational thoughts and facts.
Exposure is meaningless.some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their life
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
hence
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.a very rational thought and fact indeed
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 03:41:02 PM
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their lifeHuh? It seems you’re doing something that’s fairly common around these parts these days and answering a question that wasn’t asked while leaving unanswered a question that was
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 03:45:26 PM
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their life
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
For everyone watching this play out on the sidelines, this sums it up perfectly. Science is being ignored because people aren't seeing it work the way they think it should immediately before their eyes.
I really thought frum Jews were smarter than this.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 03:47:51 PM
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their lifeLet’s do it your way. There are many countries around the world that have opened up far earlier and to a greater extent than NY has without having seen a significant spike in cases since b”h. Does that translate into everyone who was exposed is immune because you have eyes?
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 17, 2020, 03:52:37 PM
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 03:54:23 PM
The vulnerable people who were smart enough to self isolate early on & therfore didn't get it yet are still self isolating.Yes but they are indeed lowering their guard more now. I know of quite a few who are close to attending indoor Shul and are allowing people in their households to mingle with others. People who locked up early and did not get the virus.
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 04:00:26 PM
The vulnerable people who were smart enough to self isolate early on & therfore didn't get it yet are still self isolating.
IMO, this is the absolute biggest misconception with Covid. When you say vulnerable, you mean those with the highest risk of death. While death is the worst case scenario, we have no clue how this will impact those who survive, both short-term and long-term. To deem anyone as "safe" to get Covid is a huge fallacy which leads to the cavalier attitudes we're seeing in our communities and beyond.
Post by: ari3 on June 17, 2020, 04:01:24 PM
That is a rather condescending comment
I really thought frum Jews were smarter than this.
Why do you think that anyone who differs from your worldview lacks in his smartness? Maybe if tens of thousands of people are acting a certain way and you disagree maybe you are not smarter than all of them?
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 04:04:20 PM
That is a rather condescending comment
Why do you think that anyone who differs from your worldview lacks in his smartness? Maybe if tens of thousands of people are acting a certain way and you disagree maybe you are not smarter than all of them?
Really? This is the Jewish way of thinking? The masses are doing it a certain way so they must be right?
You yourself said what you are perceiving as reality isn't matching the science, so we should ignore the science. If that's considered a "worldview" and disagreeing with anyone who thinks that way is condescending, I'll gladly wear that hat.
Post by: ari3 on June 17, 2020, 04:24:12 PM
Really? This is the Jewish way of thinking? The masses are doing it a certain way so they must be right?referring to hundreds of thousands of frum Jews as "I thought they were smarter than that" is condescending.
You yourself said what you are perceiving as reality isn't matching the science, so we should ignore the science. If that's considered a "worldview" and disagreeing with anyone who thinks that way is condescending, I'll gladly wear that hat.
thankfully you are not the arbiter of Jewish thinking so please represent your opinions as your way of thinking and don't make representations as to what the Jewish way of thinking is
Post by: Euclid on June 17, 2020, 04:26:46 PM
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 04:29:00 PM
referring to hundreds of thousands of frum Jews as "I thought they were smarter than that" is condescending.
thankfully you are not the arbiter of Jewish thinking so please represent your opinions as your way of thinking and don't make representations as to what the Jewish way of thinking is
I think the Rambam is a pretty good arbiter of Jewish thinking. Which side of this do you think he'd be on? Science, or believe what you think you see?
Post by: avromie7 on June 17, 2020, 04:30:48 PM
IMO, this is the absolute biggest misconception with Covid. When you say vulnerable, you mean those with the highest risk of death. While death is the worst case scenario, we have no clue how this will impact those who survive, both short-term and long-term. To deem anyone as "safe" to get Covid is a huge fallacy which leads to the cavalier attitudes we're seeing in our communities and beyond.This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 04:37:40 PM
This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.
Once again, this has been reduced to binary options. There are a plethora of options between hiding in a cave and business as usual.
Post by: avromie7 on June 17, 2020, 04:40:55 PM
Once again, this has been reduced to binary options. There are a plethora of options between hiding in a cave and business as usual.Or you can argue that theoretical residual effects are not something to worry about.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 04:45:28 PM
This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.+1000000000000
Add to that being a Yid with emunah and bitachon.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 17, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
IMO, this is the absolute biggest misconception with Covid. When you say vulnerable, you mean those with the highest risk of death. While death is the worst case scenario, we have no clue how this will impact those who survive, both short-term and long-term. To deem anyone as "safe" to get Covid is a huge fallacy which leads to the cavalier attitudes we're seeing in our communities and beyond.I don't dispute that and take particular care in avoiding the virus even though I am the diametric opposite of vulnerable. My point merely was we aren't seeing spike in NY/NJ & EU hospitalizations because those who are likely to end up in the hospital either already did or are still being careful.
Those advocating for business as usual are all governed by an impulsive reckless decision making process which doesn't take facts into the equation at all, and simply cede to their primal temptations. Unfortunately they outnumber us, so one of them is sitting in the Oval Office. What's remarkable is that they utterly forgot how wrong they were in February.
Post by: avromie7 on June 17, 2020, 05:10:01 PM
I don't dispute that and take particular care in avoiding the virus even though I am the diametric opposite of vulnerable. My point merely was we aren't seeing spike in NY/NJ & EU hospitalizations because those who are likely to end up in the hospital either already did or are still being careful.I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.
Those advocating for business as usual are all governed by an impulsive reckless decision making process which doesn't take facts into the equation at all, and simply cede to their primal temptations. Unfortunately they outnumber us, so one of them is sitting in the Oval Office. What's remarkable is that they utterly forgot how wrong they were in February.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 05:15:41 PM
Post by: Yef on June 17, 2020, 05:17:26 PM
+1000000000000
Add to that being a Yid with emunah and bitachon.
This says it the best. Enough with these overly worried and overly emphasizing the greatness and infallibility of the “scientists”. The most they are doing at this point is educated guesses.
There is a bashefer of the velt!!!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 17, 2020, 05:19:23 PM
I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.No, you're the one clinging to every possible argument to justify a conclusion you reached out of laziness in wearing a mask.
Every single government in the world mandated restrictions that were either similar or more restrictive than the US & NY.
Governments the world over make decisions their citizens are incapable of making on their own - cigarette laws, alcohol laws, gambling laws, prostitution laws, seatbelt laws, and even medical prescription laws.
Of course, that's even without the potential for harming others with the coronavirus.
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I don't trust anybody blindly.
A common argument used to end intelligent debate. We know he's in control, we don't know if he wants more people to die or not, and we are obligated to use every resource he gave us to prepare ourselves appropriately.
There is a bashefer of the velt!!!
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 05:20:23 PM
I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.
They are one and the same. Vote Democrat, get government mandated restrictions. This is what happens when the frum Jewish communities of NY sell their votes for handouts and promises of favors.
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 05:26:05 PM
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?
I do not follow my doctors blindly. I do my research before and after talking to the doctor, ask the relevant questions based on my findings, and go with what the medical consensus is. Occasionally, when I'm conflicted, I take the advice of the Rebbe and consult a rofeh yedid. I don't negotiate with the doctor, because he has no power to make decisions for me. I don't ignore a doctor unless I feel I've received better medical guidance that tells me to proceed in a different direction.
Post by: avromie7 on June 17, 2020, 05:29:03 PM
No, you're the one clinging to every possible argument to justify a conclusion you reached out of laziness in wearing a mask.Which conclusion?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 05:29:26 PM
I do not follow my doctors blindly. I do my research before and after talking to the doctor, ask the relevant questions based on my findings, and go with what the medical consensus is. Occasionally, when I'm conflicted, I take the advice of the Rebbe and consult a rofeh yedid. I don't negotiate with the doctor, because he has no power to make decisions for me. I don't ignore a doctor unless I feel I've received better medical guidance that tells me to proceed in a different direction.You go to the doctor with a sore throat. He gives you antibiotics to take. You are going to research what he prescribed?
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 05:33:41 PM
You go to the doctor with a sore throat. He gives you antibiotics to take. You are going to research what he prescribed?
If it's one I'm not already familiar with? Yes.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 17, 2020, 05:55:22 PM
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 06:54:59 PM
I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.
Without reading any such articles, I can tell you that the worst thing is for doctors to have to deal with patients arguing with them based on information they found with the help of Google. And they are for the most part right.
Based on the responses I got, I guess I didn't formulate my question properly, as people seem to have latched on to the word "blindly" in their responses.
So let's use a real-life scenario and give multiple choices for answers, so we can avoid the free-form answers.
Your 9 year old daughter complains of a headache and sore throat and has fever. You take her to the doctor who does a quick Step test that shows positive. The doctor prescribes antibiotics. Luckily, this is a practice that takes two swabs for a strep test, and then also put one test for an overnight. The next morning you call (waiting for a call from the MD office might take longer, so you call first thing in the morning) to find out that the overnight test came back negative.
Do you:
A. Fill the prescription immediately and start your daughter on antibiotics.
B. Postpone filling the prescription and call the next morning for the overnight results, and let your kid's body fight off whatever they might have.
C. Ask the doctor upon receiving the prescription if their are any alternatives that don't involve antibiotics.
D. Do as in A, and upon getting a call back from the office late in the next afternoon that the overnight came back negative, ask the Dr if you should continue on antibiotics, because even though it might not be strep, but it could be something else that the antibiotics can kill.
Post by: beeweegee on June 17, 2020, 07:00:59 PM
I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.Lol this. I find it helpful when a patient has read up on his/her condition and is knowledgable about it. It makes my life easier, and shows that they care. But yes, the self-diagnosing, sometimes contrarian patients educated by Dr. Google can be frustrating at times.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 17, 2020, 08:05:08 PM
I would say D... is that correct
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Without reading any such articles, I can tell you that the worst thing is for doctors to have to deal with patients arguing with them based on information they found with the help of Google. And they are for the most part right.
Based on the responses I got, I guess I didn't formulate my question properly, as people seem to have latched on to the word "blindly" in their responses.
So let's use a real-life scenario and give multiple choices for answers, so we can avoid the free-form answers.
Your 9 year old daughter complains of a headache and sore throat and has fever. You take her to the doctor who does a quick Step test that shows positive. The doctor prescribes antibiotics. Luckily, this is a practice that takes two swabs for a strep test, and then also put one test for an overnight. The next morning you call (waiting for a call from the MD office might take longer, so you call first thing in the morning) to find out that the overnight test came back negative.
Do you:
A. Fill the prescription immediately and start your daughter on antibiotics.
B. Postpone filling the prescription and call the next morning for the overnight results, and let your kid's body fight off whatever they might have.
C. Ask the doctor upon receiving the prescription if their are any alternatives that don't involve antibiotics.
D. Do as in A, and upon getting a call back from the office late in the next afternoon that the overnight came back negative, ask the Dr if you should continue on antibiotics, because even though it might not be strep, but it could be something else that the antibiotics can kill.
Frankly, I don't particularly care what's best for the doctor. I care about what's best for the patient. And I don't argue with my doctor, I ask questions and let him explain why he feels this method of treatment is best.
As for your multiple choice, you're missing variables. If it's my kid with a history of strep throat, the answer is A. I know he's getting Amoxicillin, and I know how he'll react to it. If it's an ear infection in my toddler who has a history of ear infections, I ask my wife for the name of the antibiotic I can never remember, then ask the doctor to skip the Amoxicillin and go straight to the Augmentin, since she needs the stronger stuff. If it's the first time my kid has had strep, I ask the doctor what s/he recommends with regards to starting that night or waiting for the full culture. They've generally got a good handle on what's going on from examining my kid.
In short, I try to stay educated about the illnesses my kids may have, as well as the treatment protocols and medications available to them, with all the pros and cons. What's your point?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 17, 2020, 09:19:46 PM
You seem to agree with this: keep in mind that you need you doc to make the final diagnosis so you dont want to annoy him too much
Post by: Lurker on June 17, 2020, 09:29:18 PM
@Lurker I agree with all you examples.
You seem to agree with this: keep in mind that you need you doc to make the final diagnosis so you dont want to annoy him too much
TG, I live in a place with many options for medical care. If I don't respect a doctor, I won't trust him/her with my family's care. If I have a question I feel needs to be answered, I'm not particularly concerned with annoying my doctor. As long as I treat the doctor with the respect they deserve, they have no reason to get annoyed.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 10:06:39 PM
Without reading any such articles, I can tell you that the worst thing is for doctors to have to deal with patients arguing with them based on information they found with the help of Google. And they are for the most part right.Why don’t you answer my question first? Where have you seen any medical evidence that exposure renders you immune?
Based on the responses I got, I guess I didn't formulate my question properly, as people seem to have latched on to the word "blindly" in their responses.
So let's use a real-life scenario and give multiple choices for answers, so we can avoid the free-form answers.
Your 9 year old daughter complains of a headache and sore throat and has fever. You take her to the doctor who does a quick Step test that shows positive. The doctor prescribes antibiotics. Luckily, this is a practice that takes two swabs for a strep test, and then also put one test for an overnight. The next morning you call (waiting for a call from the MD office might take longer, so you call first thing in the morning) to find out that the overnight test came back negative.
Do you:
A. Fill the prescription immediately and start your daughter on antibiotics.
B. Postpone filling the prescription and call the next morning for the overnight results, and let your kid's body fight off whatever they might have.
C. Ask the doctor upon receiving the prescription if their are any alternatives that don't involve antibiotics.
D. Do as in A, and upon getting a call back from the office late in the next afternoon that the overnight came back negative, ask the Dr if you should continue on antibiotics, because even though it might not be strep, but it could be something else that the antibiotics can kill.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
+1000000000000-100000000000
Add to that being a Yid with emunah and bitachon.
Any precaution that feels uncomfortable or doesn’t jibe with your political views must be ignored because you’re a Yid with emunah and bitachon? We don’t listen to doctors but instead rely on our complete personal lack of medical knowledge to make decisions because we trust in Hashem? Is this a Chabad teaching?
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 10:13:02 PM
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I don’t know what I’d do in any specific situation but one thing is for sure: I wouldn’t do anything without adequate medical support for that decision.
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 10:22:10 PM
Why don’t you answer my question first? Where have you seen any medical evidence that exposure renders you immune?
In case you missed it:
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.
If you'd rather wait for a manufactured vaccine, talk to me no sooner than Trumps 2nd year of his 2nd term.
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 10:25:17 PM
In case you missed it:Did that answer my question? How? It certainly had NOTHING to do with waiting for a vaccine, and mentioning it undermines the seriousness with which I view your answer. How exactly did your eyes show you that exposure made people immune? Where did you pick that up? You ran an experiment?
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2020, 10:34:49 PM
How exactly did your eyes show you that exposure made people immune? Where did you pick that up? You ran an experiment?
What proof would you find acceptable in regards to immunity?
Post by: S209 on June 17, 2020, 10:36:43 PM
What proof would you find acceptable in regards to immunity?A peer reviewed study, for example? Even strong anecdotal evidence that stands up against obvious scrutiny and equally plausible theories would help.
Post by: yesitsme on June 17, 2020, 10:48:56 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Assemblyman-Eichenstein-Encourages-New-Yorkers-to-Call-Governor-Cuomo-on-ridiculous-reopening-plan.mp4?_=1
Post by: NTorch on June 18, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 18, 2020, 05:10:32 PM
In Germany & France courts overruled a few blanket quarantine restrictions.
Post by: Dan on June 18, 2020, 05:11:42 PM
The Association of Jewish Camp Operators filed a lawsuit earlier this afternoon seeking an injunction allowing the camps to open.Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried.
Post by: NTorch on June 18, 2020, 05:21:53 PM
Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
I don't think that this strategy will work, but what they are arguing is that the Governor relaxed (or more accurately ignored) the health concerns and public gathering restrictions in permitting people to exercise their 1st Amendment Free Speech rights while not allowing an exception to the sleep away camp closure to allow the exercise of First Amendment Freedom of Religion.
Post by: Traveler718 on June 18, 2020, 06:13:48 PM
I don't think that this strategy will work, but what they are arguing is that the Governor relaxed (or more accurately ignored) the health concerns and public gathering restrictions in permitting people to exercise their 1st Amendment Free Speech rights while not allowing an exception to the sleep away camp closure to allow the exercise of First Amendment Freedom of Religion.
This is exactly what religious institutions in California argued, only to be shot down by SCOTUS, though it was impressive that they got their case accepted and with tremendous haste. Hard to imagine the camps will fare any better, especially when time is not on their side.
Post by: lubaby on June 18, 2020, 06:18:53 PM
I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried.This is the important part. Until now all the complaints / grievances were just people posting on twitter or their blogs / news sites.
Post by: avromie7 on June 18, 2020, 06:45:56 PM
I am not aware of a single instance where a US court overturned government emergency restrictions. SCOTUS itself denied at least 1 case.
In Germany & France courts overruled a few blanket quarantine restrictions.
Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
This is exactly what religious institutions in California argued, only to be shot down by SCOTUS, though it was impressive that they got their case accepted and with tremendous haste. Hard to imagine the camps will fare any better, especially when time is not on their side.Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.
Post by: mercaz1 on June 18, 2020, 06:48:31 PM
Post by: Dan on June 18, 2020, 06:50:31 PM
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discriminationIt's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 18, 2020, 06:52:17 PM
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.+1 this would also not allow Oorah to open as they are careful not to force religion on to minors I believe for legal reasons
Post by: AsherO on June 18, 2020, 07:08:35 PM
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.
Taking בכל דרכך דעהו to a whole new level!
Post by: avromie7 on June 18, 2020, 07:23:09 PM
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discrimination
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.There's also economic freedom, the government can't pick and choose winners and losers.
Post by: Dan on June 18, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
There's also economic freedom, the government can't pick and choose winners and losers.Good luck with that argument.
Post by: CountValentine on June 18, 2020, 07:43:02 PM
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discrimination
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.I wonder what would have happened if I said this. :)
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 18, 2020, 08:20:56 PM
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 18, 2020, 08:24:46 PM
This is the important part. Until now all the complaints / grievances were just people posting on twitter or their blogs / news sites.There have been plenty of lawsuits.
Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.Did New York State ever issue a permit for a protest? Cuomo isn't NYS, so his statements are irrelevant.
Taking בכל דרכך דעהו to a whole new level!Lol
Post by: avromie7 on June 18, 2020, 09:11:09 PM
Did New York State ever issue a permit for a protest? Cuomo isn't NYS, so his statements are irrelevant.selective enforcement is picking and choosing.
Post by: ari3 on June 18, 2020, 09:13:37 PM
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.the question is if that carries weight in court
Post by: CountValentine on June 18, 2020, 09:14:36 PM
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.Everything is selective. Saying liquor stores are essential and places of worship are not is being selective.
Post by: avromie7 on June 18, 2020, 09:29:09 PM
Everything is selective. Saying liquor stores are essential and places of worship are not is being selective.Gatherings and shopping are different, and I assume the court may say the same about camps. However the encouragement of protests definitely blows a massive hole in the governments arguement.
Post by: CountValentine on June 18, 2020, 09:32:52 PM
Gatherings and shopping are different, and I assume the court may say the same about camps. However the encouragement of protests definitely blows a massive hole in the governments arguement.Are day camps allowed? Is it just sleep over camps that are shutdown?
Post by: etech0 on June 18, 2020, 09:36:09 PM
Are day camps allowed? Is it just sleep over camps that are shutdown?yes
Post by: Traveler718 on June 18, 2020, 11:49:25 PM
Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.
I don't believe this is correct. The California lawsuit that reached the Supreme Court alleged discrimination against religious institutions because the restrictions were NOT across the board, and the amount of people allowed in synagogues and churches was less than allowed in a Walmart. Yet SCOTUS upheld the government picking winners and losers on the basis of purported concerns of public health.
If they're doing this to show that they're not going down without a fight, I could hear that. But getting people's hopes up and making them think that they have any chance of prevailing (and in time to switch all camps back to sleepaway) is a fantasy.
Post by: alexk. on June 19, 2020, 12:32:10 AM
May not be about winning.
Cuomo said to “get creative” , so they are with all of these loopholes and diversions.
Post by: yesitsme on June 19, 2020, 12:56:31 AM
Orthodox Jewish kids and youth took to the streets to protest demanding summer camps to be open https://t.co/R3gPseXm3t
— Gustavo Martinez (@newsguz) June 17, 2020
Post by: Mtrasb on June 19, 2020, 02:06:41 AM
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
Post by: avromie7 on June 19, 2020, 08:17:11 AM
I don't believe this is correct. The California lawsuit that reached the Supreme Court alleged discrimination against religious institutions because the restrictions were NOT across the board, and the amount of people allowed in synagogues and churches was less than allowed in a Walmart. Yet SCOTUS upheld the government picking winners and losers on the basis of purported concerns of public health.The court kept the distinction between gatherings and shopping, at that time religious gatherings had the same restrictions as all other gatherings.
If they're doing this to show that they're not going down without a fight, I could hear that. But getting people's hopes up and making them think that they have any chance of prevailing (and in time to switch all camps back to sleepaway) is a fantasy.
Post by: RebTuvia on June 19, 2020, 09:58:20 AM
Heard this hilarious rumor:
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
Was a good joke..
From what I'm hearing, seems like a lot of camps that can survive financially without government programs are opening, and are readying to deal with the consequences.
Post by: NTorch on June 19, 2020, 10:12:46 AM
Was a good joke..
From what I'm hearing, seems like a lot of camps that can survive financially without government programs are opening, and are readying to deal with the consequences.
This has nothing to do with government funding. If the NYS Dept of Health will not allow them to open they will get shut down.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 19, 2020, 10:35:08 AM
My understanding of the strategy was to get a judge to give an injunction to allow them to open until this is settled. If they do, this drags past the summer.
May not be about winning.
Cuomo said to “get creative” , so they are with all of these loopholes and diversions.
Yes, lawsuit was filed yesterday and request for TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) will follow early next week which they hope will be granted and allow them to open camps legally while the lawsuit plays itself out in a long drawn out process.
Post by: S209 on June 19, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Heard this hilarious rumor:I know of a girls camp that intends to do this
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 19, 2020, 11:02:58 AM
Yes, lawsuit was filed yesterday and request for TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) will follow early next week which they hope will be granted and allow them to open camps legally while the lawsuit plays itself out in a long drawn out process.
is a fantasy.
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.Maybe yes maybe no, but the question at hand is whether or not the NYS DOH is required to issue permits for camps, and being that the NYS DOH did not issue permits for protests the whole claim is preposterous. It's also silly because while some ignorant masses may fall for it, their donors aren't as stupid and will not be happy with this waste of resources.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 19, 2020, 11:09:25 AM
Camps are paying for it.
Maybe yes maybe no, but the question at hand is whether or not the NYS DOH is required to issue permits for camps, and being that the NYS DOH did not issue permits for protests the whole claim is preposterous. It's also silly because while some ignorant masses may fall for it, their donors aren't as stupid and will not be happy with this waste of resources.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 19, 2020, 11:10:36 AM
Camps are paying for it.And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
Post by: Afrages6 on June 19, 2020, 11:15:51 AM
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?
Post by: NTorch on June 19, 2020, 11:16:35 AM
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
How do you know the Agudah is involved?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 19, 2020, 11:19:09 AM
Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?Going back in circles. Because multiple lawsuits of the nature have been tossed out by courts across the country up to SCOTUS. The outcome is well known.
How do you know the Agudah is involved?https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1874159/breaking-lawsuit-filed-summer-camps-organizations-sue-ny-governor-cuomo.html
Quote
Following New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo’s crushing decision this past Friday to disallow overnight camps this summer, the Agudath Israel of America-led Association of Jewish Camp Operators (AJCO) and several parents filed suit today in federal court to overturn that decision.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 19, 2020, 11:23:30 AM
Going back in circles. Because multiple lawsuits of the nature have been tossed out by courts across the country up to SCOTUS. The outcome is well known.
No lawsuit of this nature has been filed yet. SCOTUS ruling was basically that there is a big difference between business and gatherings. Therefore a religious gathering isn’t in the same boat as an essential business.
The lawsuit here is that once gatherings are being allowed - day camps, child care, protests - the governor can’t be arbitrary and capricious about which gatherings are allowed and which aren’t. And if gatherings are allowed then you can’t discriminate against religious gatherings as they are claiming.
Post by: gubevo18 on June 19, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,I agree its a massive stretch. Courts are quite deferential to legislators, and it seems to be a stretch that this would be in violation of 1A. But I would imagine the goal is just to stretch out the lawsuit long enough to allow camps to open this summer.
And as far as your last statement, I think that's just wrong. The attorney here is a very accomplished and very well regarded. He is the same one who was involved in the PEARLS/YAFFED lawsuits and for the most part he's quite "respectable."
Post by: JMHO on June 19, 2020, 11:32:18 AM
And as far as your last statement, I think that's just wrong. The attorney here is a very accomplished and very well regarded. He is the same one who was involved in the PEARLS/YAFFED lawsuits and for the most part he's quite "respectable."+100
Post by: CountValentine on June 19, 2020, 01:29:37 PM
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.
Post by: Eb228 on June 19, 2020, 02:24:24 PM
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.
I beleive that's the first post of yours I ever "liked"!
Keep em coming!
Post by: CountValentine on June 19, 2020, 02:55:37 PM
I beleive that's the first post of yours I ever "liked"!Just the facts, Jack!
Keep em coming!
Post by: yesitsme on June 19, 2020, 03:38:45 PM
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.Yup, those were my thoughts as well, reminded me from camp chanting Night swim
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 19, 2020, 03:40:33 PM
Yup, those were my thoughts as well, reminded me from camp chanting Night swimWait, the daily color war chants were a protest to have CW earlier?
Post by: Traveler718 on June 19, 2020, 05:53:21 PM
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 20, 2020, 03:25:38 PM
Post by: Ergel on June 20, 2020, 03:46:54 PM
If I was a camp owner, instead of trying to fight the State I would try to get a lab to run a PCR test once or twice a week on pooled samples of the entire camp, like China did. Cost should be minimal and it should be easy to convince the state under that arrangement with strong contingency plans in place the camps are safer than home.From the Agudah statement it sounds like they did this and it fell on deaf ears
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 20, 2020, 04:29:16 PM
From the Agudah statement it sounds like they did this and it fell on deaf earsThe lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 20, 2020, 09:39:28 PM
The lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?
Post by: CountValentine on June 20, 2020, 11:39:00 PM
The lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 20, 2020, 11:55:40 PM
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?Many have it covered at community antibody drives also private Urgent care centers seem to be offering for free but not sure where the funding comes from.
Mine was covered by insurance
Post by: ExGingi on June 20, 2020, 11:59:22 PM
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?
I haven't heard of anyone in NY paying for it.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
I haven't heard of anyone in NY paying for it.Insurance should cover.
Post by: lakewood34 on June 21, 2020, 12:57:53 AM
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?110 here in lakewood by one of the urgent cares if you want to pay out of pocket
Post by: CountValentine on June 21, 2020, 01:04:44 AM
110 here in lakewood by one of the urgent cares if you want to pay out of pocketThat's not bad.
Post by: yesitsme on June 21, 2020, 01:36:23 AM
thanks to gov cuomo
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 01:43:06 AM
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240
thanks to gov cuomo
Camps might just go out of state .
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 03:15:55 AM
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.
Pooled sample testing is very simple & cheap
Post by: AsherO on June 21, 2020, 09:05:16 AM
The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.
Pooled sample testing is very simple & cheap
What do you gain with pooled sample testing? What do the contingency plans look like?
If any new positive tests for PCR, you strictly isolate that person (and test for antibodies?)? What’s next? Test the whole camp? Send home everyone who is PCR-negative?
Post by: Lurker on June 21, 2020, 09:09:40 AM
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?
I think people are expressing too much confidence in camps saying "no one in or out." It's not feasible, and shouldn't be relied upon. There most definitely needs to be contingency plans.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 10:02:54 AM
What do you gain with pooled sample testing?
Cheaper than individual testing
What do the contingency plans look like?Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:
If any new positive tests for PCR, you strictly isolate that person (and test for antibodies?)? What’s next? Test the whole camp? Send home everyone who is PCR-negative?
Immediate segregation into limited size capsules
Sanitation.
Individual PCR tests for everybody.
Isolation plan for positive cases - joint capsule/hospital/home/individual isolation
Camp disbanding transportation plan / continuing in capsules until additional cases are ruled out
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 21, 2020, 10:30:53 AM
This sound like protocol for an active war zone. These camps are for young kids.... most are either gonna open anyway or do day camp without these draconian measures.
Cheaper than individual testing Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:
Immediate segregation into limited size capsules
Sanitation.
Individual PCR tests for everybody.
Isolation plan for positive cases - joint capsule/hospital/home/individual isolation
Camp disbanding transportation plan / continuing in capsules until additional cases are ruled out
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 21, 2020, 10:37:56 AM
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 10:42:23 AM
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearing
Post by: Afrages6 on June 21, 2020, 10:45:06 AM
Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearingA TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.
Post by: Lurker on June 21, 2020, 10:56:36 AM
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
I don't know why there's an assumption that this won't get shoved to the front of the docket if the TRO is approved.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 21, 2020, 11:01:26 AM
I don't know why there's an assumption that this won't get shoved to the front of the docket of the TRO is approved.TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.
Post by: elya on June 21, 2020, 11:34:02 AM
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
All food will be delivered before the start of Camp.
Any person that leaves grounds will not be allowed back in.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 11:37:16 AM
Post by: Lurker on June 21, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
All food will be delivered before the start of Camp.
Any person that leaves grounds will not be allowed back in.
All food and activities being on camp premises before camp starts is a Herculean task. Doable, but unlikely. Keeping control of all the staff, both those who interact with the kids (counselors, activity leaders) and support (admin, maintenance, kitchen), is also doable but unlikely. Then you have to account for intangibles. If a kid has to go to the hospital, the kid won't be allowed back. Who picks up his things? What about the staff member(s) who accompany him there? Does the camp have all the necessary medical supplies and personnel on site for the full duration of camp?
While it may be technically possible to absolutely lock down a camp with no one in or out, anyone going to those lengths should also have contingency plans in place, because s**t happens.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.A TRO cannot be appealed
Post by: yesitsme on June 21, 2020, 11:48:37 AM
Post by: yaakov35 on June 21, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
if its out off NY let it rip through, who cares its harmless to kids, transmittable rate is very low, there is a study that suggests that children cant transmit the virus to others, the plan was only to please the gov which didn't work out wellMost of them had it so it won't even rip through but ya most camps that are out of state will take very few if any precautions.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 12:24:57 PM
A TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.Yep, the lawsuit is meant to appease people like you who don't know better
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/woman-advocate/practice/2018/preliminary-injuction-relief/
Quote
Although the test for obtaining a TRO or PI may vary slightly across jurisdictions, generally a plaintiff seeking preliminary injunctive relief must satisfy a four-factor test: (1) that he or she is likely to succeed on the merits of his claims; (2) that he or she is likely to suffer irreparable harm without preliminary relief; (3) the balance of equities between the parties support an injunction; and (4) the injunction is in the public interest
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1239.pdf
Quote
A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must estab- lish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of prelimi- nary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest.....
The standard for a preliminary injunction is essentially the same as for a permanent injunction with the exception that the plaintiff must show a likelihood of success on the merits rather than actual success
Post by: AsherO on June 21, 2020, 03:46:18 PM
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 21, 2020, 03:55:47 PM
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.Good point many teenage counselors will laugh the whole thing off....
While some directors are "legends" some are seen as the "bad cop" which will make it cool not to listen
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 21, 2020, 04:50:14 PM
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.Probably still more competent than a lot of government organizations
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 05:47:16 PM
Post by: lubaby on June 21, 2020, 07:45:02 PM
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
Reminds me of:QuoteA House on the Roof
Levy built a sukkah on the roof of his apartment building several days before the eight-day holiday of Sukkot began. After the holiday began, the landlord noticed it and demanded that it be removed immediately, claiming it was a violation of the terms of the building lease. Levy refused, telling the landlord that since this was a religious observance, he had the right to build the sukkah there.
The landlord disagreed and took the case to court.
In court, the landlord argued that the sukkah was unsightly, against the terms of the lease, and was a fire hazard. Levy argued that his religious rights would be ignored. The judge, who happened to be Jewish, listened patiently and then offered his verdict.
“I agree with the landlord in this case, and I therefore rule that you have ten days from today to take down your hut.”
Post by: S209 on June 21, 2020, 07:57:17 PM
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 08:00:28 PM
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”IIRC that's where it's from.
Post by: joeberg on June 21, 2020, 09:18:56 PM
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”The judge was Judge Silver Rabbi Amos Bunim's FIL a frum yid.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 21, 2020, 10:45:42 PM
Had his sukkah on his deck all year as he wanted privacy from the apartment building in his backyard. Before sukkos they noticed him "making modifications" (schach) and upon researching discovered that it wasn't a illegal.
Filed zoning claim and non jewish judge gave him the standard 15 days....
Post by: Mtrasb on June 22, 2020, 01:36:12 AM
Heard this hilarious rumor:Apparently this isn't happening in the end.
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
They were scared off by Cuomo's threat of banning the camp for good.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 09:07:40 AM
A TRO cannot be appealed
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 09:32:49 AM
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order
Quote
Judges' decisions on whether or not to issue a TRO may not be appealed.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 10:05:36 AM
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order
I have successfully appealed TROs. There is a procedure to do so, regardless of what is in the wiki.
Here is language from a Second Circuit Court of Appeals (the Court which would hear the appeal from an Order in this case) specifically permitting an appeal from a TRO.
Quote
As a general matter, appeal lies only from final judgments of the district court, 28 U.S.C. § 1291, or interlocutory orders that grant or refuse injunctions. 28 U.S.C. § 1292(a)(1). As a TRO is interlocutory and is not technically an injunction, it is ordinarily not appealable. See Hoh v. Pepsico, Inc., 491 F.2d 556, 560 (2d Cir.1974). However, when a grant or denial of a TRO “might have a ‘serious, perhaps irreparable, consequence,’ and ... can be ‘effectually challenged’ only by immediate appeal,” we may exercise appellate jurisdiction. Carson v. American Brands, Inc., 450 U.S. 79, 84, 101 S.Ct. 993, 996–97, 67 L.Ed.2d 59 (1981) (citation omitted); United States v. Miller, 14 F.3d 761, 764 (2d Cir.1994). Because the district court's order met this standard, this court had jurisdiction to entertain Green Point's appeal, as well as the motion for a stay that accompanied it.
Romer v. Green Point Sav. Bank, 27 F.3d 12, 15 (2d Cir. 1994)
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 10:09:09 AM
I don't know yet when it will be heard by Judge Sharpe as he has not signed it yet.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 10:37:32 AM
I have successfully appealed TROs. There is a procedure to do so, regardless of what is in the wiki.Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)
Here is language from a Second Circuit Court of Appeals (the Court which would hear the appeal from an Order in this case) specifically permitting an appeal from a TRO.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1291
Quote
The courts of appeals (other than the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit) shall have jurisdiction of appeals from all final decisions of the district courts of the United States,
Case law developed to allow some departure from the strict language, but per SCOTUS the criteria are
Quote
Thus, immediate appeal is confined to those decisions that are conclusive, that resolve important questions completely separate from the merits, and that would render such questions effectively unreviewable on appeal from the final judgment in the underlying action.
As such, this TRO would normally not be appealable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocutory_appeal
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp
I don't know yet when it will be heard by Judge Sharpe as he has not signed it yet.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1291
Case law developed to allow some departure from the strict language, but per SCOTUS the criteria are
As such, this TRO would normally not be appealable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocutory_appeal
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.
There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.
All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.
While a final decision or a decision on an injunction is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 10:57:26 AM
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.All good and fine, but this
There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.
All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.
While a final decision is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.
If you practice this for a living, surely you know how laughable this whole legal effort it.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 10:58:37 AM
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topic
There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.
All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.
While a final decision or a decision on an injunction is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topicBetter than the people who became experts without reading anything, and better than people who knock the messenger when they can't disprove the message.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 11:07:53 AM
All good and fine, but this Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.
If you practice this for a living, surely you know how laughable this whole legal effort it.
When I first posted the Complaint on this thread on June 18 (already downloaded 22 times), I said "I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried." https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115525.msg2278073#msg2278073
Also as per above, a TRO can be appealed (see Romer v. Green Point Sav. Bank, 27 F.3d 12, 15 (2d Cir. 1994)
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 11:38:18 AM
Post by: stooges44 on June 22, 2020, 12:02:30 PM
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:30:52 PM
https://vimeo.com/431424067
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 12:35:52 PM
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 22, 2020, 12:40:59 PM
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:41:44 PM
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
Including the Agudah camp itself. Just goes to show what a joke and waste of money this pony show is. IMO the resources and connections could be better utilized on something that may actually yield real benefits.
Post by: Dan on June 22, 2020, 12:42:02 PM
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.As an overnight or day camp?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:44:19 PM
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.Plenty of the chasidish will open regardless. Its only a problem for kids anyway.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:45:59 PM
As an overnight or day camp?Ulster County is giving problems for day camps also, thats where one of the big satmar camps is.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.
This I just don't get. To what end? If the camp gets shut down after a week or 2, what are those kids supposed to do? At that point, it's too late for parents to make other arrangements. And what about the damage to the institution itself? Who pays the fines? Will this impair their ability to open next year? What about permits or certificates they need to run other programs? I just don't see justification here.
Post by: Euclid on June 22, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
Including the Agudah camp itself. Just goes to show what a joke and waste of money this pony show is. IMO the resources and connections could be better utilized on something that may actually yield real benefits.Only 2 of the grades moved out IIUC
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:47:53 PM
Including the Agudah camp itself. Just goes to show what a joke and waste of money this pony show is. IMO the resources and connections could be better utilized on something that may actually yield real benefits.Based on what are you saying this? Do you know whats going on behind the scenes?
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Only 2 of the grades moved out IIUC
Very possible. I'm not very familiar with their camps. I just saw the announcement of their move to NH.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:49:18 PM
This I just don't get. To what end? If the camp gets shut down after a week or 2, what are those kids supposed to do? At that point, it's too late for parents to make other arrangements. And what about the damage to the institution itself? Who pays the fines? Will this impair their ability to open next year? What about permits or certificates they need to run other programs? I just don't see justification here.Highly unlikely they get shut down, and for kids that live in brooklyn and have been stuck in a small apartment the last 4 months they'll take 2 weeks.
Post by: Euclid on June 22, 2020, 12:50:35 PM
Very possible. I'm not very familiar with their camps. I just saw the announcement of their move to NH.From what I understand, Rabbi Reisman felt that 7th and 8th (or 8th/9th, don't remember) graders needed camp more than others so he pushed them to move to NH. The rest of the grades are opening as day camp, I believe.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:50:54 PM
Based on what are you saying this? Do you know whats going on behind the scenes?
Based on what I see and read. I have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. I would point out that the question, "do you know what's going on behind the scenes," was thrown around a lot when they were trying to get shuls opened. IIRC, there wasn't much accomplished.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
Highly unlikely they get shut down
Based on what?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
Based on what I see and read. I have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. I would point out that the question, "do you know what's going on behind the scenes," was thrown around a lot when they were trying to get shuls opened. IIRC, there wasn't much accomplished.There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:53:13 PM
Based on what?That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 12:54:08 PM
There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..
That's not true.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 12:54:47 PM
That's not true.You know of any shuls that the cops shut down??
Post by: db23 on June 22, 2020, 01:00:24 PM
As an overnight or day camp?
both/mixture -plan as i heard is to have kids that are upstate already going as day camp. kids from city being bused in sun-thur then home for shabbos.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 01:00:49 PM
Highly unlikely they get shut down, and for kids that live in brooklyn and have been stuck in a small apartment the last 4 months they'll take 2 weeks.Of course they will get shutdown (maybe permanently). We are talking about Cuomo's state here.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 01:01:48 PM
You know of any shuls that the cops shut down??
770, multiple times, although that may be different because they had the backing of the gabboim. Also IIRC, many shuls were targeted after DeBlasio's funeral debacle.
Post by: Dan on June 22, 2020, 01:02:16 PM
There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 01:03:21 PM
That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.
You're describing a powerless government that doesn't match the realities on the ground. If this were realistic, we'd all be CHAZ/CHOP, living in an anarchist's utopia.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 01:06:41 PM
You're describing a powerless government that doesn't match the realities on the ground. If this were realistic, we'd all be CHAZ/CHOP, living in an anarchist's utopia.Would not say "all"
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 01:12:24 PM
That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.You live in alternate reality. In real life if Cuomo wants to shut it down, he'll send some cops there if needed put a few people in jail, and the camp will rush to get all the kids home. And no it won't take months, there are duty judges 24/7.
Quote
The provisions of the sanitary code shall have the force and effect of law and the non-compliance or non-conformance with any provision thereof shall constitute a violation punishable on conviction for a first offense by a fine not exceeding two hundred fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not exceeding fifteen days, or both; and for a second or subsequent offense by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not exceeding fifteen days, or both.
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PBH/229
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 01:26:20 PM
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.
Not sure how you are defining "upstate". These are local decisions made by the various counties that the camps are located in. Many of the camps are in Sullivan County (Monticello), others are in Orange, Dutchess, Ulster and Chenango. Each County has its own Department of Health which oversees the camps in its County. The local Sheriff's Department will be the entity that has to police and shut down an illegally operating camp and I don't know if each County feels strongly against or for the opening. These are big money makers for some of the smaller counties.
Of course, none of these camps can open legally without NY's Dept of Health giving the green light for sleep away camps, but all the enforcement will be on the local (County) level.
Meanwhile their attempt to get a TRO allowing them to open just took another small step forward as they asked the Judge to give them a hearing on June 25 (letter attached). However since that is the day that they claim that they want to open, I don't know how they convince a Judge that the TRO will give them any real relief as he will probably be skeptical about their ability to safely and quickly open if he allows them to do so.
Post by: mgarfin on June 22, 2020, 01:30:22 PM
770, multiple times, although that may be different because they had the backing of the gabboim. Also IIRC, many shuls were targeted after DeBlasio's funeral debacle.
As I heard cops only cames to shuls they were called. they outright did not look out to shut shuls
The same goes for all schools in Brooklyn.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 22, 2020, 01:30:27 PM
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.Sullivan country very much wants these camps. They are big money makers for the county.
Post by: mgarfin on June 22, 2020, 01:33:29 PM
All-day its day camp
Would they need a search want to go onto cap grounds and into bunkhouses?
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 01:38:30 PM
Sullivan country very much wants these camps. They are big money makers for the county.
If the camps are completely self-contained with all supplies sourced and stored on-site before opening, what financial benefits do the counties get?
Post by: avromie7 on June 22, 2020, 01:43:11 PM
If the camps are completely self-contained with all supplies sourced and stored on-site before opening, what financial benefits do the counties get?Jobs for their residents. I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 01:52:58 PM
Jobs for their residents. I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
More than just the jobs for the residents at the camp. Think about all the local contractors who get brought in for electrical, plumbing, septic work.
Also the camp may be buying its food from elsewhere, but anything from office supplies to cleaning and janitorial supplies all come from local merchants.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 01:53:59 PM
Jobs for their residents.
If "no one in, no one out" is the policy, how many of the jobs will be filled by locals? My only experience with a camp in update NY was CGI Parksville, and their non-Jewish workers were not local to the county.
I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
I understand this concern, but I think it's unwarranted. Many camps own their grounds, and I believe all the camps which relocated are renting grounds from established camps which are temporarily closed for this year due to Covid. To find a permanent home in those locations would be much harder to do.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 01:54:48 PM
More than just the jobs for the residents at the camp. Think about all the local contractors who get brought in for electrical, plumbing, septic work.
Also the camp may be buying its food from elsewhere, but anything from office supplies to cleaning and janitorial supplies all come from local merchants.
This is why I don't think "no one in, no one out" is feasible.
Post by: avromie7 on June 22, 2020, 02:16:06 PM
This is why I don't think "no one in, no one out" is feasible.IDK what they would do about local contractors, but I don't think a delivery done without any interaction would violate a no one in, no one out policy.
Post by: avromie7 on June 22, 2020, 02:20:58 PM
I understand this concern, but I think it's unwarranted. Many camps own their grounds, and I believe all the camps which relocated are renting grounds from established camps which are temporarily closed for this year due to Covid. To find a permanent home in those locations would be much harder to do.I don't think camps will cease to exist in sullivan county, but I'd be shocked if this doesn't cause some shift out of the area.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 02:26:21 PM
For them to close the camp they would have to observe the kids sleeping there at night, No?There isn't really any proof burden - the Health commissioner has authority to decide. You'd have to convince a court to overturn his decision based on lack of due process or evidence to the contrary
All-day its day camp
Would they need a search want to go onto cap grounds and into bunkhouses?
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 02:29:30 PM
I don't think camps will cease to exist in sullivan county, but I'd be shocked if this does cause some shift out of the area.
I think you meant you wouldn't be shocked. I would be. Camps are too invested there, and the convenience factor is too high to uproot an existing camp. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see new camps start up out of state if the Poconos works out this summer.
Post by: ExGingi on June 22, 2020, 02:49:00 PM
Quote
Rosh Chodesh Tammuz
Dear Parents,
Covid-19
BH, this past Friday, June 19th, the county where XXXX XXXXXXX is located entered its final phase of reopening. The program and grounds are being prepared, and we are getting ready to provide your son with a summer filled with learning and fun activities, in a chassidishe atmosphere.
We are currently in the final stages of preparing our Covid-19 policy in accordance with CDC guidance for summer camps and the local health officials. We are implementing rigorous janitorial procedures to ensure the safety and wellbeing of talmidim and staff.
All talmidim and staff will be required to be tested (with negative results) or have antibodies for Covid-19 several days before coming to camp.
More information will be forthcoming.
Post by: avromie7 on June 22, 2020, 02:53:28 PM
I think you meant you wouldn't be shocked. I would be. Camps are too invested there, and the convenience factor is too high to uproot an existing camp. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see new camps start up out of state if the Poconos works out this summer.I meant I'd be shocked if it doesn't. An established camp would never pick themselves up and move out of the area, but once they're forced to I would think some of them will decide for a variety of reasons to stay where they went and not come back.
Post by: Lurker on June 22, 2020, 02:56:10 PM
I meant I'd be shocked if it doesn't. An established camp would never pick themselves up and move out of the area, but once they're forced to I would think some of them will decide for a variety of reasons to stay where they went and not come back.
If that option presents itself, I can see where a conversation would be had by camp admin. I just don't know of too many camps who will have that option, as they are using grounds that are only temporarily vacant because of Covid.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 04:43:18 PM
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.They don't know what they want. They want the money but not the people, they'll all end up letting day camps. And once they have permission with that camps will do whatever they want
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 22, 2020, 04:57:31 PM
If that option presents itself, I can see where a conversation would be had by camp admin. I just don't know of too many camps who will have that option, as they are using grounds that are only temporarily vacant because of Covid.I think some camps are covering PA rental costs by renting their NY campus to yeshivos but not sure if its true
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 05:04:34 PM
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 05:48:00 PM
Push off to Monday, how convenient....And now the camps don't want to let them push it off.
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 05:50:03 PM
And now the camps don't want to let them push it off.
You have it backwards - the letter from the Association of camps asking for the June 25 date for the hearing was filed before the AG filed their letter asking for June 29th.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 05:54:49 PM
You have it backwards - the letter from the Association of camps asking for the June 25 date for the hearing was filed before the AG filed their letter asking for June 29th.Not going to argue. But read through the response to the judge. They're talking about how cuomo stalled and why they need a hearing asap and not to delay it
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 06:00:54 PM
Not going to argue. But read through the response to the judge. They're talking about how cuomo stalled and why they need a hearing asap and not to delay it
When you read docket entries the lower number was filed first. In this case the docket entry for the camp's letter (which I posted here https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115525.msg2280183#msg2280183) is entry 8 and the AG's responsive letter is entry 9.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 06:08:19 PM
When you read docket entries the lower number was filed first. In this case the docket entry for the camp's letter (which I posted here https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115525.msg2280183#msg2280183) is entry 8 and the AG's responsive letter is entry 9.Your right. Which is why I didn't even argue
Post by: iluv2travel on June 22, 2020, 07:47:41 PM
You have it backwards - the letter from the Association of camps asking for the June 25 date for the hearing was filed before the AG filed their letter asking for June 29th.
So when is the hearing ultimately scheduled for, 25th or 29th?
Post by: yesitsme on June 22, 2020, 08:25:29 PM
Plenty of the chasidish will charge your CC regardless. Its only a problem for parents anyway.FTFY
Post by: iluv2travel on June 22, 2020, 08:42:42 PM
FTFYUnauthorized and risk a dispute?
Post by: NTorch on June 22, 2020, 09:40:57 PM
So when is the hearing ultimately scheduled for, 25th or 29th?Could be neither date, its up to the Judge as to when he wants to hold it.
Post by: Joeymc on June 22, 2020, 11:19:27 PM
For them to close the camp they would have to observe the kids sleeping there at night, No?
All-day its day camp
Would they need a search want to go onto cap grounds and into bunkhouses?
Does a health inspector need a warrant to inspect the grounds?
What happens when an inspector walks into bunkhouses and sees clothes and dirty laundry and bunk beds with pillows and blankets? Try explain that you are just having a day camp with all that
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 11:46:12 PM
Staff are allowed to stay there...
Does a health inspector need a warrant to inspect the grounds?
What happens when an inspector walks into bunkhouses and sees clothes and dirty laundry and bunk beds with pillows and blankets? Try explain that you are just having a day camp with all that
Post by: Joeymc on June 22, 2020, 11:53:06 PM
Staff are allowed to stay there...Every bunkhouse is full of staff?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 11:56:52 PM
Every bunkhouse is full of staff?Staff for the day camp...
Post by: Joeymc on June 23, 2020, 12:00:41 AM
But all it takes is one nosy health inspector to count how many beds are used and how many staff members there are to realize that the kids have to be sleeping there.
IINM most camps have much more campers than staff so if it was just the staff sleeping there, there should be lots of empty beds/bunkhouses
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 23, 2020, 01:13:36 AM
I get that.Say something along the lines of extra staff to allow for smaller isolated bunks....
But all it takes is one nosy health inspector to count how many beds are used and how many staff members there are to realize that the kids have to be sleeping there.
IINM most camps have much more campers than staff so if it was just the staff sleeping there, there should be lots of empty beds/bunkhouses
Post by: yfr bachur on June 23, 2020, 06:17:26 AM
This says it the best. Enough with these overly worried and overly emphasizing the greatness and infallibility of the “scientists”. The most they are doing at this point is educated guesses.
There is a bashefer of the velt!!!
and what you do is an uneducated guess with a side of negius, and you have the azus to blame it on emuna!
Post by: yfr bachur on June 23, 2020, 06:24:56 AM
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?
How do you know the Agudah is involved?
Camp AGUDA???
Post by: yfr bachur on June 23, 2020, 06:34:44 AM
Staff for the day camp...
and the kid size clothing????
I don't see your large staff of dwarfs....
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 07:22:14 AM
At a Christian summer camp near Colorado Springs, at least 11 employees fell ill just before the season’s opening, leading the camp to cancel overnight stays for the first time in 63 years.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 23, 2020, 07:42:45 AM
Camp AGUDA???Look at the lawsuit. Same lawyer who sued dept of education
Post by: Boruch Parnes on June 23, 2020, 01:48:18 PM
As an overnight or day camp?the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pull
Post by: NTorch on June 23, 2020, 02:06:04 PM
the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pull
Why would you possibly admit this in a public forum?
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Post by: yaakov35 on June 23, 2020, 02:21:45 PM
the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pullI know of few main stream camps that also plan on opening.... no major chiddush
Post by: avromie7 on June 23, 2020, 02:54:58 PM
Why would you possibly admit this in a public forum?What's the problem? He's not publicizing which camp.
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 23, 2020, 02:57:15 PM
I know of few main stream camps that also plan on opening.... no major chiddush
Camps are opening. They just don't care.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Post by: Lurker on June 23, 2020, 03:15:50 PM
Camps are opening. They just don't care.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
OT question: as Jews, when in the history of the world has this ever worked out for us?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 03:21:20 PM
Camps are opening. They just don't care.FTFY
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for the Jews. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Post by: Jellybelly on June 23, 2020, 03:22:20 PM
Why would you possibly admit this in a public forum?Not sure it’s so simple that there’s an issue of Dina dimalchusa dina here
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Post by: NTorch on June 23, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Camps are opening. They just don't care.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
I sincerely hope you are wrong, even though two of my kids are stuck at home this summer because of this.
Think about the Chillul Hashem aspect of frum camps being closed for violating the DOH order. This is much worse than attending a funeral without social distancing or masks - its a premediated violation of the law and halacha.
Also as a parent I can't comprehend the use of children as pawns in this. Think about how children are going to be disappointed when the camp they are in gets shut down and they get sent back home. And if Chas V'Shalom they get rousted by local law enforcement? Why would you want to expose a kid to that?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 23, 2020, 03:29:48 PM
What's the problem? He's not publicizing which camp.He isn't anon. Shouldnt be hard to figure out (especially if you have access to govt databases)
Post by: ari3 on June 23, 2020, 03:32:36 PM
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Wow! After everything that has happened in this country these last few weeks there are still people that are concerned about the law. This country has descended into anarchy and dictatorship.
I used to be a law abiding citizen too
Post by: NTorch on June 23, 2020, 03:32:42 PM
Not sure it’s so simple that there’s an issue of Dina dimalchusa dina here
What would be the reason that its not?
I'm no posek, but what would be the heter to violate the lawful Order of the state Department of Health?
*The ban on sleepaway camps does not require anyone to violate halacha
*There is no pikuach nefesh which can be accomplished by violating the ban on sleepaway camps
*The ban has nothing to do with Judaism and does not target Jews
So why would you think that by violating this law a person is not oveir on dina d'malchusa dina?
Post by: Lurker on June 23, 2020, 03:44:10 PM
Wow! After everything that has happened in this country these last few weeks there are still people that are concerned about the law. This country has descended into anarchy and dictatorship.
I used to be a law abiding citizen too
Cue "But Officer...!" As a frum Jew, how do you justify following in the ways of the riffraff on this? Lo seileichu doesn't apply anymore?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 23, 2020, 03:46:41 PM
Cue "But Officer...!" As a frum Jew, how do you justify following in the ways of the riffraff on this? Lo seileichu doesn't apply anymore?
Maybe cuz it’s just politics now
Post by: Lurker on June 23, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Maybe cuz it’s just politics now
Anarchy is politics? And I missed the caveat on Lo Seileichu where we can ignore laws because they are ignoring laws cuz "it's just politics." If anything, we have a greater obligation to follow the law. If you don't like the politics, get involved and work to get it changed. Frum Jews in NY have never shied away from getting involved in the political world to the benefit of their communities. But to disregard laws outright and in the open?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 23, 2020, 04:00:13 PM
If Cuomo sits down, we will win a better summer for the kids, but if he fights back, the scene will be catastrophic for years to come.
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 04:15:31 PM
Camps are opening. They just don't care.I'm sure a lot is going on behind the scene.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Post by: Lurker on June 23, 2020, 04:22:24 PM
Can we assume that the camps which are opening have some understanding on what will be enforced. Much more rational to me than just relying on this:
Why would you assume they know how it will be enforced when the enforcers themselves don't know?
I'm sure a lot is going on behind the scene.
This was said in the lead-up to Cuomo's ban, too, with shockingly unpredictable results...
Post by: Dan on June 23, 2020, 04:27:08 PM
This was said in the lead-up to Cuomo's ban, too, with shockingly unpredictable results...Was cute seeing all the articles and comments saying I was wrong :)
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 04:30:01 PM
This was said in the lead-up to Cuomo's ban, too, with shockingly unpredictable results...Not true, those in the know never said so.
Why would you assume they know how it will be enforced when the enforcers themselves don't know?Seems like you don't know how Gov. Coumo operates, you should have seen his reaction when asked on KJ open schools.
Post by: ari3 on June 23, 2020, 08:52:31 PM
I hope camps and parents are consulting Daas Torah before brazenly fighting the State of New York.Many of these camps (especially the chasidish ones) belong to a kehilla and are presumably following their daas torah.
If Cuomo sits down, we will win a better summer for the kids, but if he fights back, the scene will be catastrophic for years to come.
Most all the camp owners have a lot of skin in the game and are well aware of the consequences to their camps if "the scene will be catastrophic for years to come" so one would assume they are calculating the risks and feel that the situation you describe is unlikely
While Cuomo sets the laws, enforcement is on the local level so if you have things worked out with local law enforcement usually you should be ok. (there has been a lot going on in many communities that is against the gov's orders coordinated with local law enforcement)
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 09:29:34 PM
Many of these camps (especially the chasidish ones) belong to a kehilla and are presumably following their daas torah.Commas would be greatly appreciated.
Most all the camp owners have a lot of skin in the game and are well aware of the consequences to their camps if "the scene will be catastrophic for years to come" so one would assume they are calculating the risks and feel that the situation you describe is unlikely
While Cuomo sets the laws enforcement is on the local level so if you have things worked out with local law enforcement usually you should be ok. (there has been a lot going on in many communities that is against the gov's orders coordinated with local law enforcement)
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:06:48 PM
Post by: yesitsme on June 23, 2020, 10:13:39 PM
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)are you referring to ripping down the statues?
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:15:28 PM
are you referring to ripping down the statues?Hypocrisy at its finest!
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 23, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
We will not allow Yidishe Neshamos to wander the streets during the summer. We are opening come what may.
I believe that many camp directors (and I assume the Daas Torah guiding them) feel that there is an element of yaharog v'al yaavor when it comes to keeping kids in camp and off the streets. They'll do whatever it takes to keep the kids in a kosher environment, even if the entire country turns against us.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:33:38 PM
They'll do whatever it takes to keep the kids in a kosher environment, even if the entire country turns against us.When someone blatantly violates the law everyone should turn against them no matter who they are!
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 10:37:29 PM
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)Na, we're just establishing our own CHAZ. You should embrace it.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:41:30 PM
Na, we're just establishing our on CHAZ/CHAP. You should embrace it.Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 23, 2020, 10:43:54 PM
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 10:45:27 PM
Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!Only embracing well run CHAZ establishments.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:46:44 PM
Only embracing well run CHAZ establishments.
Hypocrisy at its finest!
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 23, 2020, 10:49:08 PM
If Cuomo sends in the state police, there will be fireworks.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 10:51:34 PM
Pompous arrogant preacher at his finest.
Post by: Jellybelly on June 23, 2020, 10:53:05 PM
When someone blatantly violates the law everyone should turn against them no matter who they are!Theoretical question here. What would you do if Trump signed an executive order forbidding anyone from owning a puzzle? Would you comply?
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 10:53:53 PM
Pompous arrogant preacher at his finest.I see the hypocrites don't like being called out. Get use to it. :P
Post by: yaakov35 on June 23, 2020, 10:56:46 PM
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)What you seem to not understand is that there are 2 parts of doing the right thing in life, one is the legal aspect and the second is the moral aspect. Cuomo isn't God and people only listen to him because otherwise they'll get into trouble. The issue with rioting and blm and all that is they're making this country an anarchy. Nobody cares about them breaking the law and getting a $50 ticket. They're tearing down statues and Burning our flag because they hate our country. Anyone who does that should be shot or sent to China. In every functional society there are police to keep people safe, different levels of people to be in charge of everyone else. When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened. So ya this isn't about legal or illegal.
Post by: Euclid on June 23, 2020, 10:59:56 PM
When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened.Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 23, 2020, 11:01:33 PM
Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.Just because you felt there was a health concern doesn't mean they did. Once people knew what was going on they closed up.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 11:02:41 PM
What you seem to not understand is that there are 2 parts of doing the right thing in life, one is the legal aspect and the second is the moral aspect. Cuomo isn't God and people only listen to him because otherwise they'll get into trouble. The issue with rioting and blm and all that is they're making this country an anarchy. Nobody cares about them breaking the law and getting a $50 ticket. They're tearing down statues and Burning our flag because they hate our country. Anyone who does that should be shot or sent to China. In every functional society there are police to keep people safe, different levels of people to be in charge of everyone else. When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened. So ya this isn't about legal or illegal.What you don't understand in this country we live by laws. You like to pick and choose which ones to obey. You pick and choose based on who is involved. That is hypocrisy at its finest.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 23, 2020, 11:05:13 PM
What you don't understand in this country we live by laws. You like to pick and choose which ones to obey. You pick and choose based on who is involved. That is hypocrisy at its finest.These things aren't set in stone.... you can sue the state etc... none of these camps are going to blatantly violate the law. Their going to figure out a way to make it legal. And these are individuals who effects nobody but themselves, vs whats going on in the world now which will every single Persons way of life.
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 11:05:46 PM
Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.Hmm. For example? Enlighten us please.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 11:07:59 PM
I see the hypocrites don't like being called out. Get use to it. :PI see no one has called you out for far too long, get used to it.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 11:10:24 PM
I see no one has called you out for far too long, get used to it.If you can back it up go right ahead. The problem is you can't back it up. :P
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 11:11:34 PM
These things aren't set in stone.... you can sue the state etc... none of these camps are going to blatantly violate the law. Their going to figure out a way to make it legal. And these are individuals who effects nobody but themselves, vs whats going on in the world now which will every single Persons way of life.Posting here common sense won't work, you should find a better way to inject nuance in his brain, or even better, let go.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 11:13:54 PM
Post by: Euclid on June 23, 2020, 11:15:19 PM
Hmm. For example? Enlighten us please.
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 11:16:15 PM
If you can back it up go right ahead. The problem is you can't back it up. :PFile it under
" I don't give a flying rat's a** what Chaim thinks"
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 11:18:47 PM
That wasn't said in promotion of late closures, was said in promoting earlier re-openings.
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 11:20:17 PM
For someone that doesn't care sure does respond a lot to my posts. ;)
Post by: Euclid on June 23, 2020, 11:20:37 PM
That wasn't said in promotion of late closures, was said in promoting earlier re-openings.Oh I know. I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 11:27:10 PM
Oh I know. I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.Ok so I'll teach you the aleph bais.
That community is located in NY. New York state was hit first with the virus, and therefor closed way too late, that's why ALL of NY suffered the most fatalities and the highest infection rate.
Post by: Euclid on June 23, 2020, 11:34:41 PM
Ok so I'll teach you the aleph bais.
That community is located in NY. New York state was hit first with the virus, and therefor closed way too late, that's why ALL of NY suffered the most fatalities and the highest infection rate.
Thank you for that, so I guess they didn't close when there was a health concern? That was his point, which I was refuting.
Post by: EliJelly on June 23, 2020, 11:40:10 PM
Thank you for that, so I guess they didn't close when there was a health concern? That was his point, which I was refuting.I don't believe you're following his point correctly. Anyways, you started with this:
definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.And then shifted to:
I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.
so I guess they didn't close when there was a health concern?Nice!
Post by: ari3 on June 23, 2020, 11:49:25 PM
Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!most people here at this point don't have an issue with flouting laws that they see as unjust. They still have an issue with rioting, looting, tearing down statues, burning down police stations and the like. Not only because it is against the law but because it is against common decency and it is damaging others property
Post by: ah giten on June 24, 2020, 12:56:40 AM
Why is everybody here saying that they're breaking the law? Is challenging an executive order equal to breaking the law?
Post by: ari3 on June 24, 2020, 01:26:43 AM
AFAIK all camps that have plans to open are working with lawyers to have some kind of legality.Violating an executive order equals breaking the law. They may be challenging the executive order in court but till that gets turned over or till there is an injunction it is the law.
Why is everybody here saying that they're breaking the law? Is challenging an executive order equal to breaking the law?
Camps are also trying to utilize various loopholes that probably wouldn't hold up in a court of law but may be good enough to avoid getting shut down in the meantime.
Post by: yesitsme on June 24, 2020, 01:30:19 AM
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 24, 2020, 05:49:11 AM
I believe that many camp directors (and I assume the Daas Torah guiding them) feel that there is an element of yaharog v'al yaavor when it comes to keeping kids in camp and off the streets. They'll do whatever it takes to keep the kids in a kosher environment, even if the entire country turns against us.I'm stunned that you actually believe that. ד' עבירות חמורות.
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
most people here at this point don't have an issue with flouting laws that they see as unjust. They still have an issue with rioting, looting, tearing down statues, burning down police stations and the like. Not only because it is against the law but because it is against common decency and it is damaging others propertyWhen you pick and choose which laws are unjust based on who it effects is hypocrisy at its finest.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVrdgWCx/Secondhand-Easy-Azurevase-size-restricted.gif)
Post by: incendia on June 24, 2020, 08:54:47 AM
Wow! After everything that has happened in this country these last few weeks there are still people that are concerned about the law. This country has descended into anarchy and dictatorship.
I used to be a law abiding citizen too
Can't be both
Post by: yesitsme on June 24, 2020, 08:56:48 AM
When you pick and choose which laws are unjust based on who it effects is hypocrisy at its finest.he explained it very clearly
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVrdgWCx/Secondhand-Easy-Azurevase-size-restricted.gif)
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 24, 2020, 08:57:15 AM
I'm stunned that you actually believe that. ד' עבירות חמורות.
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 24, 2020, 09:30:23 AM
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.May hashem help us all. At least I understand now how the lawyers are claiming camp is a religious freedom :D
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
Post by: NTorch on June 24, 2020, 09:52:03 AM
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
I don't know what you personally believe, but I can't believe that any posek is standing behind these principles.
1. The kids are being as used pawns and no rational parent wants to see their kid getting sent home because their camp was shut down by the local Department of Health.
2. If anyone actually believed that this was an issue of gilui arayos the entire community would be funding sending kids from poor homes to summer camp every summer. Even if camps would have opened in a normal (non-Covid) year, there would be many, many kids who would not be in camp due to financial circumstances.
3. The legal/PR risks are nothing compared with the abject chillul Hashem created by a premeditated violation of the law. This is not people not wearing a mask at funeral or not obeying social distance guidelines. These would be organized summer camps choosing to intentionally violate the law.
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 10:06:18 AM
he explained it very clearlyCutting locks - ok
Having summer camps - ok
Mass gatherings for weddings - ok
Mass gatherings for funerals - ok
Kids protesting without SD or masks - ok
The list goes on and on.
Peaceful protest is not ok but gassing, rubber bullets and other things used against peaceful protesters is ok
The hypocrisy has never been any clearer. ::)
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 24, 2020, 10:07:57 AM
I don't know what you personally believe, but I can't believe that any posek is standing behind these principles.
1. The kids are being as used pawns and no rational parent wants to see their kid getting sent home because their camp was shut down by the local Department of Health.
2. If anyone actually believed that this was an issue of gilui arayos the entire community would be funding sending kids from poor homes to summer camp every summer. Even if camps would have opened in a normal (non-Covid) year, there would be many, many kids who would not be in camp due to financial circumstances.
3. The legal/PR risks are nothing compared with the abject chillul Hashem created by a premeditated violation of the law. This is not people not wearing a mask at funeral or not obeying social distance guidelines. These would be organized summer camps choosing to intentionally violate the law.
You clearly don't understand the chasidishe mindset.
1. Yes, the rabanim DO believe that leaving kids on the streets in the summer is tantamount to gilui arayos.
2. Yes, the chasidishe kehilos DO set up funds so that kids from poor homes can go to summer camp every summer. In fact, most chasidishe camps provide scholarships to those who can't afford it.
3. Once again, you clearly don't understand the chasidishe mindset. Chilul Hashem is not in the lexicon. "They are anyways all antisemites or zionists, so who cares."
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 10:51:58 AM
Post by: Lurker on June 24, 2020, 11:06:34 AM
Hearing scheduled for June 30th.
Question is, if the camps open before then, how will that impact this hearing?
Post by: NTorch on June 24, 2020, 11:27:44 AM
Question is, if the camps open before then, how will that impact this hearing?
The Judge granted the motion for an expedited hearing and set deadlines for filing
Quote
TEXT ORDER granting 7 , 8 and 10 Plaintiffs' application for an Order to Show Cause. Plaintiffs' application is supported by a showing of good cause why the standard Notice of Motion procedure cannot be used, as required by Local Rule 7.1(e) of the Local Rules of Practice for this Court. (See, e.g., Dkt. No. 7 , Attach. 18, at 3-5, 8.) Furthermore, Plaintiffs have already given reasonable advance notice of the action, the motion for a TRO and the application. (Dkt. No. 7 , Attach. 18, at 9; Dkt. No. 9 .) Plaintiffs shall serve this Text Order and their motion papers on Defendant immediately by both email and overnight mail. Plaintiffs shall also serve Defendant with a copy of their Complaint in accordance with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Plaintiffs shall file proofs of service with the Court immediately following service as prescribed herein. Defendant's response papers are due by 5:00 P.M. on Friday, June 26, 2020. Plaintiffs' reply papers are due by 12:00 P.M. (noon) on Monday, June 29, 2020. A hearing on Plaintiffs' motion for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction shall be held at 10:00 A.M. on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, via Skype for Business. The Court's deputy clerk will contact the parties with details pertaining to the use of Skype for Business. SO ORDERED by Chief Judge Glenn T. Suddaby on 6/24/2020. (sal ) (Entered: 06/24/2020)
Having said that , I dont think it would look good if any of the camps under the umbrella of the "Association of Jewish Camp Operators" open despite the Order mandating their closure. The Judge would ask their attorney why he needs the relief that he is asking for (the TRO) if his clients are already acting in violation of the Order.
And no, I don't see any lawyer telling his clients to open their camp before the Judge makes his ruling.
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 11:37:39 AM
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
AFAIK boys and girls camps won't have sleepover if it's not cleared 100% legally. Bachorim camps is the biggest concern, some got fully legal statuses, others are still waiting and might take riskier routes if possible.If everyone is over 18 YO, are they bound by this EO?
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 12:04:58 PM
If everyone is over 18 YO, are they bound by this EO?Not sure, Mainstream chassidish camps don't have all above 18 generally. But maybe that's how some got collage statuses.
Post by: ari3 on June 24, 2020, 02:41:05 PM
Pawns? how is that? Who is forcing the kids to go or the parents to send? I wish my teenage daughter's camp would open (they are going the daycamp route and I am not in the catskills) and I would send in a heartbeat. My daughter is plotzing to go to camp. If they get shut down and she gets sent home that's the risk and we are willing to take that.
1. The kids are being as used pawns and no rational parent wants to see their kid getting sent home because their camp was shut down by the local Department of Health.
Post by: ari3 on June 24, 2020, 02:47:53 PM
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.I don't think this is ג' חמורות nor do I think the camps do. I do think they believe not having camp is a serious issue which can lead to serious problems for some. That is what is guiding them to skirt the law and do what they can to have camp.
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
I don't think most are blatantly disregarding the EO just trying to work around it thru various loopholes.
Post by: ari3 on June 24, 2020, 02:55:47 PM
Cutting locks - okDid you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.
Having summer camps - ok
Mass gatherings for weddings - ok
Mass gatherings for funerals - ok
Kids protesting without SD or masks - ok
The list goes on and on.
Peaceful protest is not ok but gassing, rubber bullets and other things used against peaceful protesters is ok
The hypocrisy has never been any clearer. ::)
You keep spouting the same argument about hypocrisy based on wrong perceptions about what people here believe.
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 03:40:10 PM
Did you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.There are many here that supported gassing the peaceful DC protesters for a stupid photo op. Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on June 24, 2020, 03:45:30 PM
Did you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.You should try to keep up with the threads. @CountValentine and maybe one or two others were the only ones voicing concern about said event.
Post by: yesitsme on June 24, 2020, 04:18:17 PM
There are many here that supported gassing the mostlypeacefulDC protesters for a stupid photo op. Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 24, 2020, 05:53:02 PM
Post by: Dan on June 24, 2020, 05:54:17 PM
LitvaksLooks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.
Post by: Euclid on June 24, 2020, 06:06:40 PM
Looks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.
Post by: yaakov35 on June 24, 2020, 06:11:45 PM
Looks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.
Post by: Dan on June 24, 2020, 06:16:59 PM
How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.I must have missed where filing a dispute for being charged for a cancelled service was against the law. Silly me!
Post by: yaakov35 on June 24, 2020, 06:18:25 PM
I must have missed where filing a dispute for being charged for a cancelled service was against the law. Silly me!There are loopholes for the camps. You can open as a religious institution, temporary residency, and others. Most of them to plan on blatantly violating the exec order.
Post by: Lurker on June 24, 2020, 06:39:59 PM
There are loopholes for the camps. You can open as a religious institution, temporary residency, and others. Most of them to plan on blatantly violating the exec order.
Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 24, 2020, 06:56:53 PM
Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Post by: Lurker on June 24, 2020, 07:00:38 PM
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 07:03:07 PM
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?I hope you are not being serious.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 24, 2020, 07:27:00 PM
What the hell happened to us?All hands on deck fighting the great threat to Judaism; kids who can’t sleep at camp.
Post by: shapsam on June 24, 2020, 07:40:09 PM
We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.::) ::) ::)
Post by: lubaby on June 24, 2020, 07:53:39 PM
All hands on deck fighting the great threat to Judaism; kids who can’t sleep at camp.If it’s up to the kids, they don’t want to sleep at camp anyways ;)
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 08:47:14 PM
::) ::) ::)Not his first bizarre one here.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 24, 2020, 09:40:52 PM
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 09:44:29 PM
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.Smart to keep the kids out of the picture.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 24, 2020, 09:47:37 PM
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.
So if they open in NY its child endangerment but if they open next door in PA its not???
It's a ludicrous claim.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 24, 2020, 10:26:54 PM
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 10:31:40 PM
So if they open in NY its child endangerment but if they open next door in PA its not???Which one is wrong, NY or PA?
It's a ludicrous claim.
Post by: Lurker on June 24, 2020, 10:35:22 PM
So if they open in NY its child endangerment but if they open next door in PA its not???
It's a ludicrous claim.
Actually, opening a camp without permits is child endangerment in both states.
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 10:36:41 PM
Actually, opening a camp without permits is child endangerment in both states.
Which one is wrong, NY or PA?Finally got an answer to a question.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 24, 2020, 10:47:40 PM
Which one is wrong, NY or PA?
Its wrong that the same act (which people are considering quite severe) can can get you arrested in one state but not in another. And yes I know states are allowed different laws and will not go into that argument. In this case, NY governor is acting dictatorial and not at all in the best interests of his constituents.
Actually, opening a camp without permits is child endangerment in both states.
That may be so, but all camps in PA have permits to my knowledge. So nobody is going to get arrested there for child endangerment because they're operating a camp.
Obviously its obnoxious that NY chose not to issue them and then may arrest people based on that.
Post by: Dan on June 24, 2020, 10:50:28 PM
The governor told satmar he will have them arrested. (per the rumor)They'll still vote D anyway.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 11:15:12 PM
They'll still vote D anyway.On condition that he pardons them.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 24, 2020, 11:32:08 PM
They'll still vote D anyway.
Many chareidim in NY are waking up and realizing the issues with voting D.
Post by: Dan on June 24, 2020, 11:35:38 PM
Many chareidim in NY are waking up and realizing the issues with voting D.Won't really matter in NJ/NY.
Post by: yesitsme on June 24, 2020, 11:36:34 PM
Many chareidim in NY are waking up and realizing the issues with voting D.I grew up knowing that we register as D even though we don't believe in everything they believe in, by the time I was eligible to register I registered as R
Post by: yossig on June 25, 2020, 12:28:42 AM
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.this is just perfect to scare them.
with top medical experts backing the camps this is going to be a difficult case to win.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 12:31:39 AM
Based on the poll camps have approx 50% chance of being open 2nd half!
Post by: yfr bachur on June 25, 2020, 04:58:10 AM
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 09:11:38 AM
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "
Wrong.
Talk for yourself.
We sure do trust all of the above and more. Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important. They are in consultation with doctors and medical experts to run those camps according to the highest standards possible from that perspective.
Do you see our community rioting, looting, shooting, burning, and what-not over this ban??? We are absolutely NOT doing whatever we want to get what we want.
The governor here has become a dictator. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 09:13:22 AM
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
Name one camp that is opening as an orphanage. Not happening. Stick to the facts.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
Name one camp that is opening as an orphanage. Not happening. Stick to the facts.He was responding to my hypothetical example of a loophole a camp could use. There are other loopholes out there esp for 18+
Ik yeshivos that opened as libraries, apt buildings, and more (and afaik they are keeping to the laws governing those like the rebeim do not walk into the building)
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 25, 2020, 09:23:49 AM
The issue of opening camps is not just a question of whether we will have a good time this summer. There is so much more that's involved, which is why rabbonim, YES RABBONIM, are taking this very seriously.
I personally know a 15 year old girl who is struggling and wavering between staying in school and trying hard to succeed or dropping out and going OTD. Many people are working with her, and all agree that if she is in camp this year with her good friends, the good experience will have a positive effect on her. If she is on the streets, she will go down.
There are countless other teens in the same situation.
In today's world, for many teens camp is no longer a luxury. It is a necessity. The Rabbonim believe this, and they are willing to do whatever it takes, including using every conceivable loophole, to make this work. They believe there is an element of yaahoreg v'al yaaover to this. Obviously no one is getting killed. But the point is that they are willing to do everything possible short of getting arrested to open camps this year, even if it means losing millions in government funding or making a PR scene.
Imagine a drug addict or alocoholic who must get into rehab or he will destroy his family. If the governor decides to close the rehabs, you will do everything you can to figure out a way, short of getting arrested, to somehow open the rehab. It is a necessity not a luxury. In today's world generally, and specifically after 3 months of COVID 19 lockdowns, many teens need camp and cannot be allowed to wander the streets. For many of these teens, its a mental health crisis. This is why Rabbonim are doing everything they can, short of getting arrested, to open camps.
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 09:36:30 AM
They believe there is an element of yaahoreg v'al yaaover to this.And just like that, everything American Jews do in 2020 became a yaahoreg v'al yaaover.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 09:41:37 AM
And just like that, everything American Jews do in 2020 became a yaahoreg v'al yaaover.
He didn't say it became. He said there's an element.
So what's your alternative, especially for hundreds of kids at risk one of which he described?
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on June 25, 2020, 09:42:17 AM
Wake up and smell the coffee.Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 09:53:20 AM
Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?
Yes, how did you know?? ::) ::)
Except I've never sent out WhatsApp rants and for sure not in Yiddish, not my language. Don't use voice notes, period.
And if you have a problem with your smell, it's one of the symptoms...
If you can't join and have a respectful discussion without bashing others, please stay out.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:20:59 AM
Some perspective is in order.
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:27:05 AM
Stick to the facts.
Its wrong that the same act (which people are considering quite severe) can can get you arrested in one state but not in another. And yes I know states are allowed different laws and will not go into that argument. In this case, NY governor is acting dictatorial and not at all in the best interests of his constituents.
That may be so, but all camps in PA have permits to my knowledge. So nobody is going to get arrested there for child endangerment because they're operating a camp.
Obviously its obnoxious that NY chose not to issue them and then may arrest people based on that.
Your insistence at sticking to the facts apparently only applies to others, not yourself. There is no dictatorship, or even any abuse of power. There is a system in place. If you don't like it, stop yelling at Cuomo online, and instead yell at your rabbonim and askonim to stop funding the Democratic Party. And before people say it won't make any difference, that's simply not true. They don't spend that amount of time kissing anyone else's a$$ if it doesn't move the needle for them.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 25, 2020, 10:29:24 AM
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
If you go back and read what I wrote, unlike rehabs, the emergency for struggling teens is to get them specifically into a frum camp setting. As of now, those exist mainly in the Catskills, in the State of NY.
Many camps that are able to move out of state, are doing it. Most camps can't just pick themselves up and move out of state. Its an enormous undertaking, in such a short amount of time..
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:33:15 AM
If you go back and read what I wrote, unlike rehabs, the emergency for struggling teens is to get them specifically into a frum camp setting. As of now, those exist mainly in the Catskills, in the State of NY.
Many camps that are able to move out of state, are doing it. Most camps can't just pick themselves up and move out of state. Its an enormous undertaking, in such a short amount of time..
It is an enormous undertaking, and one that many large camps have done successfully. The point is, if the situation is as dire as it seems, and I don't doubt that it is, they should have been working on this for a while already. An additional point, when you take a bunch of at risk kids and flaunt lawlessness, you're not helping the situation. A huge driver of youth going OTD is them seeing the disrespect of law and authority in their communities, and they question why they should respect their leadership and halachah.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 10:33:26 AM
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
The rehab example may warrant being outside a Jewish infrastructure to save a person's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.
However, to save a kid's emotional AND spiritual well being they actually would need to be in a Jewish environment. Unfortunately not all camps were logistically able to swing going out of state even if they started planning months ago, the earliest could have been late March which is not early enough in many cases.
My child is lucky enough to be attending a camp that moved to PA, I'm just feeling really terrible for the thousands of teens who were going to attend camps who were not able to move out and now they have nowhere to go because of a dictatorial decree.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:36:32 AM
The rehab example may warrant being outside a Jewish infrastructure to save a person's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.
However, to save a kid's emotional AND spiritual well being they actually would need to be in a Jewish environment. Unfortunately not all camps were logistically able to swing going out of state even if they started planning months ago, the earliestcould have been late March which is not early enough in many cases.
My child is lucky enough to be attending a camp that moved to PA, I'm just feeling really terrible for the thousands of teens who were going to attend camps who were not able to move out and now they have nowhere to go because of a dictatorial decree.
I sympathize with the at-risk issue. I lived it myself. It's not an excuse to break the law. You call Cuomo's rules a dictatorship. You know what at risk youth see as a dictatorship? Rabbonim and halachah. If you can crap on Cuomo, why can't they crap on their rabbonim?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 10:39:34 AM
There is no dictatorship, or even any abuse of power. There is a system in place.
So why is NY the ONLY state to have banned sleepaway camp???
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:42:35 AM
So why is NY the ONLY state to have banned sleepaway camp???
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 10:43:13 AM
I sympathize with the at-risk issue. I lived it myself. It's not an excuse to break the law. You call Cuomo's rules a dictatorship. You know what at risk youth see as a dictatorship? Rabbonim and halachah. If you can crap on Cuomo, why can't they crap on their rabbonim?
Because honest and true rabbonim are not two faced.
You've read and heard it all over, but I'll say it again. When these teens see Cuomo allowing, condoning, and supporting mass protests (that turn into rioting, looting etc) and then turning around and banning sleep away camps that they've so been looking forward to, what kind of message does THAT send to them?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 10:45:24 AM
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:45:46 AM
Because honest and true rabbonim are not two faced.
You've read and heard it all over, but I'll say it again. When these teens see Cuomo allowing, condoning, and supporting mass protests (that turn into rioting, looting etc) and then turning around and banning sleep away camps that they've so been looking forward to, what kind of message does THAT send to them?
That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:47:16 AM
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.
That is not how government works. If the "politicians in Albany" wanted a different outcome, it would have happened. This is called passing the buck.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 10:50:21 AM
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 10:56:23 AM
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.
Again, not factually correct. He doesn't have absolute power, any more than DeBlasio has absolute power in NYC, or Trump has absolute power in the US. The fact that other politicians are letting them run rampant means they either agree with what's being done, or they don't care enough to do anything about it.
Post by: S209 on June 25, 2020, 10:57:22 AM
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.Isn’t the legislature complicit in that?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 25, 2020, 11:01:14 AM
He was responding to my hypothetical example of a loophole a camp could use. There are other loopholes out there esp for 18+I wouldn't consider this a loophole.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 11:04:51 AM
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.The sources I read said it was based on the medical advice of Dr. Zucker.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:12:32 AM
The sources I read said it was based on the medical advice of Dr. Zucker.Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:13:16 AM
Isn’t the legislature complicit in that?In a way yes. But these politicians could be jeopardizing their futures in the Democratic Party by trying to go against the governor.
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 11:14:57 AM
Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.That's called politics. Doesn't mean he didn't advise that.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 25, 2020, 11:18:10 AM
That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?You get what you pay for!
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
That's called politics. Doesn't mean he didn't advise that.Right. So it was a political decision not a medical one.
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 11:20:38 AM
Right. So it was a political decision not a medical one.Not at all what I said.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 11:29:16 AM
Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.Do you have a link to that? I only saw it in writing.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:30:44 AM
Do you have a link to that? I only saw it in writing.
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:33:29 AM
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
Yea.. He didn't say what you think he said. He said it was one of the tougher decisions he had to make, then corrected himself, because it was technically Cuomo's decision to make, so he changed it to advice he had to pass on [to the technical decision maker, Cuomo].
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:35:43 AM
Yea.. He didn't say what you think he said. He said it was one of the tougher decisions he had to make, then corrected himself, because it was technically Cuomo's decision to make, so he changed it to advice he had to pass on [to the technical decision maker, Cuomo].That’s exactly what I think he said. The decision was Cuomo’s and his only. They said originally they were going to wait for the report on Kawasaki to come out but guess what? They decided to close the camps even before that.
Cuomo made the decision and then forced his crony Zucker to defend it.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 11:36:02 AM
Statement from New York State Health Commissioner Dr. Howard Zucker on Overnight Summer Camps
ALBANY, N.Y. (June 12, 2020) - Throughout this entire public health response, there isn't a single decision we have not made based on data and science, rather than emotion. Using the best currently available science and data, I have reached a decision to prohibit overnight children's camps from operating this season in New York State.
Unlike day camps, which are approved to open June 29, overnight camps are a difficult setting to manage social distancing and face covering and infection control practices. Overnight camps have congregate settings and sleeping arrangements in close quarters that present too many risks. In such a setting, even a single positive case in a camper or staff member could create an untenable quarantine situation and overwhelm camp health personnel that may not be able to handle a serious infectious outbreak of this nature.
I have fond memories of summer sleepaway camp as a kid and I understand the role they play in childhood development and the disappointment this decision may bring to families across the state. But amid the worst public health crisis in a century, my number one priority is the health and safety of all New Yorkers. And while infection rates are declining, we need to proceed with caution and take every step possible to avoid undoing all the progress New Yorkers have made in bending the curve and reopening the state safely and responsibly.
source: https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-06-12_overnight_camps_statement.htm
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:37:25 AM
That’s exactly what I think he said. The decision was Cuomo’s and his only. They said originally they were going to wait for the report on Kawasaki to come out but guess what? They decided to close the camps even before that.
Cuomo made the decision and then forced his crony Zucker to defend it.
No, you're not understanding. The slip was that Zucker actually made the decision. Zucker said as much. The problem is, Zucker doesn't have the power to make that decision, so he changed it to "advice" he gave Cuomo.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:39:01 AM
No, you're not understanding. The slip was that Zucker actually made the decision. Zucker said as much. The problem is, Zucker doesn't have the power to make that decision, so he changed it to "advice" he gave Cuomo.That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 11:48:03 AM
That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
The point is that Cuomo is not acting as an irrational dictator. The decision in NYS was based on an interpretation of the data and the science, so if you're trying to argue against the decision, you'll be more convincing if you argue against the data and science, rather than your dislike of Cuomo.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 11:49:26 AM
That is not how government works. If the "politicians in Albany" wanted a different outcome, it would have happened. This is called passing the buck.
Not according to Felder and Eichenstein who tried their utmost along with many others, but to no avail. They have been very very clear that this decision was made by Cuomo and only by Cuomo.
No, you're not understanding. The slip was that Zucker actually made the decision. Zucker said as much. The problem is, Zucker doesn't have the power to make that decision, so he changed it to "advice" he gave Cuomo.
I beg to differ. Zucker did not make the decision, Cuomo did. And it was purely political.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:51:19 AM
That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
Someone with a better understanding of government will correct me if I'm wrong, but DOH doesn't have legislative powers. My understanding is their role is to advise the government and enforce the laws that fall under their purview. While they ultimately issue permits, they cannot deny one without legal backing.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:52:19 AM
Cuomo did. And it was purely political.
Curious, what political benefit was there for Cuomo here?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 11:52:37 AM
That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?
And the governor of PA is a what? How come he didn't ban sleepaway camps "based on science and data"?
Answering my question with a question is not an answer. You know good and well that my question shows how hypocritical Cuomo is.
Post by: Afrages6 on June 25, 2020, 11:53:18 AM
The point is that Cuomo is not acting as an irrational dictator. The decision in NYS was based on an interpretation of the data and the science, so if you're trying to argue against the decision, you'll be more convincing if you argue against the data and science, rather than your dislike of Cuomo.Like the Kawasaki report they said they were basing the decision on?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 11:56:30 AM
Curious, what political benefit was there for Cuomo here?
To flex his power muscles and show that he will not be cowed by pressure from anyone that he feels he will not bow to.
And how would it be to his detriment or disadvantage to yes allow sleepaway camps?
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:57:30 AM
And the governor of PA is a what?
A Democrat in a swing state, whose state's politicians have put him under immense pressure to ease many of the restrictions he had in place. He's actually a great example of how bad NY politics is.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 11:57:55 AM
And the governor of PA is a what? How come he didn't ban sleepaway camps "based on science and data"?You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions! How rare that must be!
Answering my question with a question is not an answer. You know good and well that my question shows how hypocritical Cuomo is.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 11:58:38 AM
To flex his power muscles and show that he will not be cowed by pressure from anyone that he feels he will not bow to.
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
Post by: alexk. on June 25, 2020, 12:00:47 PM
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
Exactly.
What data is he using??? According to them there should have been a second wave or at least a bump in cases since the "protests". Yet the numbers continue to go down.
This is pure politics. It is called CYA.
Cuomo has to look at the benefits of allowing it:
1) If he allows it and there is some type of outbreak in camps, he is screwed.
2) If he doesn't allow it, no harm and no foul.
Losing some clout with the jewish vote is not gonna be enough to sway him. We are the only ones that care at this point. Give me a reason (politically) why Cuomo would allow it?
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 12:04:48 PM
Like the Kawasaki report they said they were basing the decision on?If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
I don't see Kawasaki in Zucker's announcement, but I haven't been following this too closely.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 12:06:06 PM
Exactly.
What data is he using??? According to them there should have been a second wave or at least a bump in cases since the "protests". Yet the numbers continue to go down.
This is pure politics. It is called CYA.
Cuomo has to look at the benefits of allowing it:
1) If he allows it and there is some type of outbreak in camps, he is screwed.
2) If he doesn't allow it, no harm and no foul.
Losing some clout with the jewish vote is not gonna be enough to sway him. We are the only ones that care at this point. Give me a reason (politically) why Cuomo would allow it?
If you read Zucker's explanation, you'll see the difference between outdoor protests and shared camp living space that led them to this decision. I agree with your assessment of Cuomo's CBA, but that just highlights why a risk-averse politician, who's state just got rocked by sickness and violence, wouldn't allow overnight camps.
As to your question, it's the one I've been asking. Politically, there's no upside. He has health concerns from doctors to back him up. Why would that be looked at at dictatorial?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 12:08:11 PM
A Democrat in a swing state, whose state's politicians have put him under immense pressure to ease many of the restrictions he had in place. He's actually a great example of how bad NY politics is.
Exactly, NY politics are terrible, at least we agree on that :).
But you can take CA who is a solid blue state and they didn't ban camps either. To my knowledge NY is the only state that did.
You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions! How rare that must be!
You totally missed the point. He said not to get into bed with Democrats so I was just pointing out that not all Democrats made this stupid decision and used PA as an example but there are many others as well.
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
No, Mr Eichenstein and other politicians from our community also tried pressuring and it didn't help. He was utterly disappointed when the announcement came. Google it.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 12:10:12 PM
If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
I don't see Kawasaki in Zucker's announcement, but I haven't been following this too closely.
His question was rhetorical because they never even waited for that report to come out!
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
Post by: shapsam on June 25, 2020, 12:23:50 PM
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?
Post by: S209 on June 25, 2020, 12:27:12 PM
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?Does he have a pen? Does he have a phone?
Then yes, he’s a lawmaker.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 12:40:17 PM
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?
Who signs bills into law in NYS?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 12:47:11 PM
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.
Well said and I totally agree. I'm not advocating publicly disregarding the law, but finding ways to legally make it work.
And I did not vote for Cuomo. A lot it helped to get a different lawmaker elected...
Post by: alexk. on June 25, 2020, 12:57:13 PM
Just like a good accountant and making your corporate entities set up in a certain way can help you avoid taxes; so too, a good lawyer can find a loophole in a law that can make you compliant with law.
Is it the best way to approach it? Certainly not.
Do some feel that with their backs against the wall they are willing to do what it takes , even if it toes the line of the law? Yes.
Interpretation of law and ways around them is how many lawyers make their parnossah. It is not always popular but can be legal. That is why the rich pay less in taxes in proportion to income. Exploiting the loopholes. It was just never necessary to be done for camp or the like.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 01:01:15 PM
Well said and I totally agree. I'm not advocating publicly disregarding the law, but finding ways to legally make it work.
And I did not vote for Cuomo. A lot it helped to get a different lawmaker elected...
As long as "finding ways to legally make it work" doesn't mean lying, then we're in agreement.
I think that if the communities used this as a teachable moment for the at-risk youth (and the general public, as well) about the value of civic engagement, both on the community level and with regards to local and state government, it would be a lot more productive and beneficial than railing against the establishment and perceived injustices. There's a lot of talk in our communities about how others only complain and march and do not take the initiative to lift themselves up and better their situation. We should learn from what we preach, rather than from what others do.
Post by: shapsam on June 25, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
Who signs bills into law in NYS?Banning camps wasn't signed into law.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 01:03:00 PM
True, the law is the law. However, there is a loophole in the law.
Just like a good accountant and making your corporate entities set up in a certain way can help you avoid taxes; so too, a good lawyer can find a loophole in a law that can make you compliant with law.
Is it the best way to approach it? Certainly not.
Do some feel that with their backs against the wall they are willing to do what it takes , even if it toes the line of the law? Yes.
Interpretation of law and ways around them is how many lawyers make their parnossah. It is not always popular but can be legal. That is why the rich pay less in taxes in proportion to income. Exploiting the loopholes. It was just never necessary to be done for camp or the like.
Loopholes are fine; lying is not. As long as those distinctions are made, great. I have not seen a loophole-based solution posted here yet. All I've seen is suggestions to lie about what we're really doing.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
Banning camps wasn't signed into law.
Ok, doesn't change Cuomo's status as a lawmaker.
Post by: alexk. on June 25, 2020, 01:14:34 PM
They plan on having the boys sleep outside of camp grounds twice a week.
I don't know the rules, but they claim it is within the law...
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 01:19:29 PM
As long as "finding ways to legally make it work" doesn't mean lying, then we're in agreement.
I think that if the communities used this as a teachable moment for the at-risk youth (and the general public, as well) about the value of civic engagement, both on the community level and with regards to local and state government, it would be a lot more productive and beneficial than railing against the establishment and perceived injustices. There's a lot of talk in our communities about how others only complain and march and do not take the initiative to lift themselves up and better their situation. We should learn from what we preach, rather than from what others do.
All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 01:23:44 PM
All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.
For sure, but just because you have a problem, that doesn't warrant lawlessness. Being poor doesn't excuse "borrowing" something from a store without paying for it. I don't have a solution for poverty, either, btw.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 01:59:16 PM
All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.Brilliant! You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.
Instead of "How can we find an interpretation of the law that will allow sleepover camps", the more useful question might be "How can we find meaningful activities for thousands of frum teens who now have nowhere to go".
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 02:43:23 PM
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers.Or move to a swing state.
Post by: Euclid on June 25, 2020, 02:51:57 PM
Or move to a swing state.Dan, be honest, if you hadn't grown up in Cleveland would you move to Ohio? ;)
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 02:55:09 PM
Or move to a swing state.
Both are way easier said than done.
Brilliant! You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.
Instead of "How can we find an interpretation of the law that will allow sleepover camps", the more useful question might be "How can we find meaningful activities for thousands of frum teens who now have nowhere to go".
And if that solution involves finding a way to legally open camps then I'm all for it. We can keep going in circles here.
Look, the anti- sleepaway and the pro people will each remain in their respective camps ;) - pun intended- no matter what the other side says, as each one has their own agenda to back up. That's what politics is all about after all ;D.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 04:31:15 PM
Look, the anti- sleepaway and the pro people will each remain in their respective camps ;) - pun intended- no matter what the other side says, as each one has their own agenda to back up. That's what politics is all about after all ;D.I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 25, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.Can you blame the kids for wanting to disobey these leaders? I would go off that derech too
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 25, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.
Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.
For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.
You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.
Post by: beeweegee on June 25, 2020, 05:31:57 PM
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 05:40:14 PM
For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.
Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.
For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.
You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.
LMAO!! The drug and abuse problems have been here for 20 years already, but thanks for filling us in. Here's a shocker for you... camp doesn't solve those issues. In fact, it's where a lot of them start. But moving on...
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2020, 06:08:11 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 06:14:48 PM
https://hamodia.com/2020/06/25/nys-dept-health-sends-letter-camp-operators/
Already posted above by @beeweegee
Post by: yossig on June 25, 2020, 06:38:31 PM
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.Why are you so obsessed with the law?
Do you only cross at a crosswalk? Or you just cross at your convenience when it’s safe?
When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 06:46:59 PM
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?
And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.
Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so. Coming out with a hard and strong ban was and is uncalled for. There is not a single other state that is going to such lengths to make sure camp doesn't happen by hook or by crook. It's just downright wrong to do this to people.
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people. And all the health protocols that camps promised to abide by have already been discussed here ad nauseam.
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 06:49:52 PM
When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 06:51:35 PM
@biobook a famous gadol said "you'll see more walking down the street in NYC then your grandmother saw in her entire lifetime on the shtetl"
You cant compare from a time when there was no such thing as summer vacation or a school year......
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 06:52:54 PM
That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.
Not taking a side on the camp issue just pointing out the flawed logic.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 06:55:04 PM
For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick. It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.
Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.
For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.
You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.
What we need is not rehab, nursing homes, and camps, but rather methods to care for drug abusers, elderly, and children. Those methods that worked for a few years in the recent past are certainly not the only ones imaginable.
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
@biobook a famous gadol said "you'll see more walking down the street in NYC then your grandmother saw in her entire lifetime on the shtetl"https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 06:57:37 PM
Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Not taking a side on the camp issue just pointing out the flawed logic.
Every thread was crying and whining the shuls were closed. Now we moved on to camps. What is next mikvahs?
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 07:04:19 PM
Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick. It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.
What we need is not rehab, nursing homes, and camps, but rather methods to care for drug abusers, elderly, and children. Those methods that worked for a few years in the recent past are certainly not the only ones imaginable.
How many breakouts of the virus have you heard of amongst childrens' homes or in schools that are currently open (and yes there are many with thousands in attendance, no masks, but let's not get into that argument)? I didn't hear of any.
And how many were there in nursing homes where loads actually died? GIYF, you can find the numbers there.
The reality is that healthy children are just not as susceptible to this virus as older adults or even not older ones. It's just not such a big issue for kids and even so camps were willing to go to great lengths to ensure health and safety.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 07:06:34 PM
Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Every thread was crying and whining the shuls were closed. Now we moved on to camps. What is next mikvahs?
Its basically one and the same. It's about the double standard being applied by allowing the protests during a health crisis but continuing to be heavy handed in other areas.
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2020, 07:09:23 PM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675
So you're saying CLE is the geographical equivalent of walking blindfolded in NYC. You don't see anything, and there's nothing to see? :P
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2020, 07:12:06 PM
I wonder if I can get a prescription for my children to go to camp, and pay for it from an HSA or FSA. This is really required at this point for mental health reasons.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 07:22:56 PM
How many breakouts of the virus have you heard of amongst childrens' homes or in schools that are currently open (and yes there are many with thousands in attendance, no masks, but let's not get into that argument)? I didn't hear of any.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fifth-coronavirus-case-reported-at-jcc-posnack-summer-camp-in-broward/ar-BB15Vj3V
Here's an example from a day camp, open just a couple of weeks. Three counselors and 2 campers tested positive. The JCC CEO: “We immediately contacted parents of all campers in the counselor’s group to pick up their children.” That would be difficult to do in an overnight camp, where parents don't live in the neighborhood.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 07:34:13 PM
Why are you so obsessed with the law?
Do you only cross at a crosswalk? Or you just cross at your convenience when it’s safe?
When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2020, 07:40:36 PM
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?Nuance?
Like this regarding disputing a charge for a service not provided?
How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 07:44:16 PM
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?
And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.
Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
They didn't ban camp forever. We're talking one summer. 2 months. Let's not make as if we're rolling back the clock to the 1920's. @biobook's point was that camp is a relatively new invention. We can figure out what to do for one summer.
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so. Coming out with a hard and strong ban was and is uncalled for. There is not a single other state that is going to such lengths to make sure camp doesn't happen by hook or by crook. It's just downright wrong to do this to people.
This has been discussed before. You don't have unlimited free will in a democracy. Also, I'm pretty sure NJ and CT have also banned overnight camps.
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people. And all the health protocols that camps promised to abide by have already been discussed here ad nauseam.
You saying there are no medical or scientific reasons doesn't make it true. There were reasons listed in the published DOH letter. You don't need to like them, and "whataboutisms" aren't going to cancel them out, either.
I'd just like to point out to all those saying setting up out of state isn't feasible, the camp @ExGingi posted about above came together in a matter of weeks by 2 people who don't currently run a camp. If something is important to you, it can be done, and done correctly.
Post by: biobook on June 25, 2020, 08:13:49 PM
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?Yes! Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.
And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.
Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
No one is suggesting that camps be disbanded. Just not used for overnight camps this year, because the medical situation warrants it.
Quote
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so.What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
Quote
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people.Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so. Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?
Post by: yossig on June 25, 2020, 08:24:29 PM
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?No I’m not.
But from your post it does look like you are placing them on the same level.
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law . If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.J walking is usually on public street ::)
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 25, 2020, 08:24:35 PM
Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. You'll never understand.
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 08:27:37 PM
The bottom line is that parents of teens understand the mental health crisis facing their children and the need for camp.Can you try and explain a little bit. Never thought of camp that way.
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 25, 2020, 08:39:37 PM
Never thought of camp that way.
Exactly.
And you won't understand so I'm not going to bother getting all emotionally worked up about it.
Ever had a substance abuser in your home? An abusive spouse? A sexual abuser? A mentally unstable family member? Alcoholic? Having teens locked up in your house for the last 3 months can feel like all of the above. And the only thing that kept many of these kids going was the hope that camps would open. You can't begin to fathom the mental health crisis that's happening in all these families that have teens. Speak to any high school principal. Speak to mental health professionals. Its real.
Again, if you're not experiencing it yourself, you won't understand. Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. But trust us - its real!
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 09:24:53 PM
Exactly.Substance abuser - check
And you won't understand so I'm not going to bother getting all emotionally worked up about it.
Ever had a substance abuser in your home? An abusive spouse? A sexual abuser? A mentally unstable family member? Alcoholic? Having teens locked up in your house for the last 3 months can feel like all of the above. And the only thing that kept many of these kids going was the hope that camps would open. You can't begin to fathom the mental health crisis that's happening in all these families that have teens. Speak to any high school principal. Speak to mental health professionals. Its real.
Again, if you're not experiencing it yourself, you won't understand. Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. But trust us - its real!
Alcoholic - check
Gambling addict - check
School teacher/principal 40+ years - check
Kids early 20's locked up for 3 months - check
Do I qualify? :)
Another member explained it to me privately and I understand fully.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 25, 2020, 09:57:10 PM
Yes! Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.
The medical crisis is all but over! Are we still having 700+ people dying daily?? We're a far cry from where we were at the peak of this crisis. Why do we need to be stuck with severe restrictions like we had at that time?
Even if people want to point to rising numbers elsewhere such as Florida, their daily new cases are still not close to what we had and their deaths are a very far cry.
It's time to move on.
No one is suggesting that camps be disbanded. Just not used for overnight camps this year, because the medical situation warrants it.What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
Are we living in communism?
Do you get to choose if you want to eat at a restaurant or not? Shop at a liquor store? Attend a sporting event? Go to a horse race? Swim at the beach? Yes, because they're all open! You can choose not to do any of the above but you have the option. Parents should get to choose if they want to send their child to camp or not, mental or emotional crisis not withstanding. Some of us just want to give our kids a wholesome summer away from the crowded city and apartments they live in all year - let them enjoy 2 months of fresh air, green grass, sports, swimming, etc.
Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so. Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?
Camps provided him with all that and more. He was completely disinterested and totally disregarded it. It was written up in the Hamodia - they interviewed people who were directly part of the conference calls with him.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 10:56:29 PM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675Ot but great point. May I add that less affluent neighborhoods are better regardless of the city?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 11:04:23 PM
What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.
If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 26, 2020, 12:30:30 AM
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.
If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
👍🏻
Post by: ari3 on June 26, 2020, 03:05:16 AM
seemingly they got wind of some of the loopholes and are trying to close them
Post by: Mtrasb on June 26, 2020, 03:14:03 AM
https://matzav.com/read-it-here-ny-department-of-health-releases-update-on-sleepaway-camps/
seemingly they got wind of some of the loopholes and are trying to close them
They probably read DDF.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 26, 2020, 05:09:56 AM
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?
If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
Post by: yfr bachur on June 26, 2020, 08:07:26 AM
Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important.
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
Post by: yesitsme on June 26, 2020, 08:41:10 AM
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.In Israel things are getting worse, IN NY things are as good as can be, covid was officially nullified
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
Post by: Jellybelly on June 26, 2020, 09:40:09 AM
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable to accuse them of negius!
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 26, 2020, 09:52:06 AM
Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?I dont understand the relevance.
The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable to accuse them of negius!
+1 @yfr bachur is the rapidly evolving fluid situation the same now as when those statements were made? What would they say regarding this specific issue?
They probably read DDF.There is a pothole in front of my house. Can you fill it in?
Post by: avromie7 on June 26, 2020, 11:34:42 AM
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Quote
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
Post by: Ergel on June 26, 2020, 11:47:51 AM
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).I agree with very little that you write in this forum, but this post is spot on
Post by: iluv2travel on June 26, 2020, 12:17:11 PM
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
And I agree with most of what you write especially here in support of camp ;D. You hit the nail on the head on this one. Why are we stuck on what was going on a few months ago when the reality now is completely different?
These people who are so busy defending this ban on camps for sure did not have businesses that were forced to be shut for months nor do they have large families with children out of school for months as well. For those of us that do, that, coupled with a total different reality than that of a few months ago, puts us in a completely different frame of thought.
Come next Tuesday after the hearing will be like Color War here. If the TRO is denied I can see those supporting the ban cheering loudly and vice vs if the TRO is granted (myself among those 8))
Post by: Dan on June 26, 2020, 12:26:58 PM
And I agree with most of what you write especially here in support of camp ;D. You hit the nail on the head on this one. Why are we stuck on what was going on a few months ago when the reality now is completely different?You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.
These people who are so busy defending this ban on camps for sure did not have businesses that were forced to be shut for months nor do they have large families with children out of school for months as well. For those of us that do, that, coupled with a total different reality than that of a few months ago, puts us in a completely different frame of thought.
Come next Tuesday after the hearing will be like Color War here. If the TRO is denied I can see those supporting the ban cheering loudly and vice vs if the TRO is granted (myself among those 8))
Post by: iluv2travel on June 26, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?
I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp also has risks and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
Post by: Dan on June 26, 2020, 01:13:53 PM
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.
I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp also has risks and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 26, 2020, 02:15:49 PM
You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.
I get that loud and clear.
However, most of the arguments being made by those that are against camps opening (which is currently against the law in NY) would apply to ALL camps even those opening out of state which there are plenty of. That's why it comes across as being anti-camp period, not anti-camp-opening-if-it-breaks-the-law. Therefore, it sounds like they'd be cheering if the TRO was not issued.
On a side note, the now closed survey for this thread should have "IN NY" added to it, then you guys that voted No and were prophetic that there wouldn't be camp can feel vindicated. As we are all aware, many of us are lucky enough to be able to send our kids to camps that have moved out of state...
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 28, 2020, 12:42:15 AM
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?FTFY
I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp is definitely riskier and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
Post by: yfr bachur on June 28, 2020, 02:08:59 AM
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt. plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
I have heard a number of US camp "askanim" who have positions in the ruchmius side of camps (camp rav, learning director...) who have made statements that the way I understand them may be borderline kefira (the mashmaus of one of the statements was: If Hashem doesn't make a ness and allow the the camps to open, He doesn't know what he is doing.)
The Rabbanim who won't wear a mask because "It doesn't look good"???? (personal direct knowledge of one - who I will not name, and rumors of others)
Sorry, there is such a thing of negius, and unless a person has worked very hard to eradicate it, it will influence his decisions. Becoming an askan or getting smicha does not remove ones propensity for negius.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 28, 2020, 02:40:16 AM
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.I can use Artscroll on this one.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt. plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
I have heard a number of US camp "askanim" who have positions in the ruchmius side of camps (camp rav, learning director...) who have made statements that the way I understand them may be borderline kefira (the mashmaus of one of the statements was: If Hashem doesn't make a ness and allow the the camps to open, He doesn't know what he is doing.)
The Rabbanim who won't wear a mask because "It doesn't look good"???? (personal direct knowledge of one - who I will not name, and rumors of others)
Sorry, there is such a thing of negius, and unless a person has worked very hard to eradicate it, it will influence his decisions. Becoming an askan or getting smicha does not remove ones propensity for negius.
Post by: yfr bachur on June 28, 2020, 05:32:23 AM
Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
there were a number of responses that also had a problem with the idea of lying and fraud to open camps.
I replied to Lurker
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "
Which is a response to why people MAY think it plausible that lying and the twisting of truth is OK.
however the response was:
Wrong.
Talk for yourself.
We sure do trust all of the above and more. Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important. They are in consultation with doctors and medical experts to run those camps according to the highest standards possible from that perspective.
Do you see our community rioting, looting, shooting, burning, and what-not over this ban??? We are absolutely NOT doing whatever we want to get what we want.
The governor here has become a dictator. Wake up and smell the coffee.
The main point of my response was
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built or is part of a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a Askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
In which I meant to say that: The involvement of Askanim and Rabbanim is a straw man to deflect criticism of the unmoral and unethical methods to open camps proposed further up the thread. I also meant to state that it is possible that some of those involved in the push to open the camps MAY have some negia that causes them to look at the issue in such a way that they would advocate some of the things that caused Lurkers indignant comment.
I also mean to clarify that disagreement with the methods proposed does not mean that I agree with the Gov and Mayor. I in fact think that thay are very wrong and it would be a dangerous precedent to allow them to go unchallenged in the courts. Including applying to the US Supreme Court for lawful relief from the unconstitutional denial of religious rights.
I was probably misunderstood, which lead to
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
To which I tried to explain myself and delineate some of the current negius that may color someones decision making process and cause them to advocate the things that precipitated Lurkers comment
I would rather be known here for intelligent thought out comments like my post in the mezuza fraud https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=100475.msg2277102#msg2277102 (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=100475.msg2277102#msg2277102)thread so this will probably be my last post on this thread
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 28, 2020, 10:22:54 AM
I would just like to point everyones attention to a recent ruling by a NY Court ruling the restrictions to be hypocritical so keep in mind the governor has Negius too (or more so- this is his career on the line)
Post by: iluv2travel on June 28, 2020, 11:32:09 AM
@yfr bachur wow! We can all applaud you for the effort put into compiling that post!+1 @yfr bachur for a great post :). Thanks for all that clarification.
I would just like to point everyones attention to a recent ruling by a NY Court ruling the restrictions to be hypocritical so keep in mind the governor has Negius too (or more so- this is his career on the line)
In one of your posts you stated that we don't trust "Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants...". You then removed Rabbanim and Poskim and put them in a separate category saying that they MAY have negius. That's totally contradictory. You either trust all those people who know better, or you don't. Only some have Negius and others don't? All are human and subject to human flaws. Can't pick and choose as it suits you.
The Negius that the governor has here definitely trumps any and all negius that SOME rabbanim or askanim MAY have - I highly doubt any of those associated with the Agudah can be placed in that category. I don't think it's fair to paint the effort to open camps in a negative light, because of the (unconfirmed) negius of a select few.
Many of them have been trying their utmost to open out of state which is obviously not a loophole or lying at all and obviously would remove any negius for opening in state. However, there are plenty of camps who for very valid reasons are absolutely unable to just move to other camp grounds. Take for example the numerous camps run for special needs children - its impossible for them to move their entire infrastructure with all their medical facilities and wheelchair accessible bunkhouses to other camp grounds within such a short time span (or for that matter even a longer one). No negius involved for pushing for the opening of these camps (in my humble opinion).
Then there are camps who own their grounds and to be hit with exorbitant rental fees for out of state grounds is just way out of their budget. To ask the parents to pay an even higher price for camp than they already are to cover this new expense is unfair, thus deeming it untenable to move out of state.
And the list of very valid reasons for being unable to move out of state goes on. While I applaud all of those camps who were able to pull it off, I do understand that this wasn't a possible option for many and I hope that the lawsuit/TRO works in their favor.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 28, 2020, 01:51:49 PM
Post by: etech0 on June 28, 2020, 02:06:02 PM
Not that I'm saying it's a good enough reason to cancel, but it's the only thing I thought of.
Oh and kids sleeping on top of each other may spread more germs, I don't know
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 02:10:47 PM
What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 28, 2020, 02:23:15 PM
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?
What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 02:24:36 PM
Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?
There's a beginning and ending date but the parents leave that part blank- I'm assuming the camp fills it in after.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 28, 2020, 02:27:02 PM
There's a beginning and ending date but the parents leave that part blank- I'm assuming the camp fills it in after.I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....
How far south can this go?
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 02:28:24 PM
I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 28, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
One point in favor of daycamps is that children are mingling with those from the same community as them. So their parents would meet in the grocery/pharmacy/park/whatever anyways. As opposed to sleepaway camps where you are mixing kids from all over and then sending them back home to spread whatever germs they picked up to a whole bunch of communities.They wouldn't be leaving camp from 4 to 8 weeks.
Not that I'm saying it's a good enough reason to cancel, but it's the only thing I thought of.
Oh and kids sleeping on top of each other may spread more germs, I don't know
Instead what we have right now, is sleepaway camps converted to day camps, so every evening all the campers return to their respective bungalow colonies, instead of staying isolated on campus for the summer.
Post by: Lurker on June 28, 2020, 02:34:50 PM
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 02:41:18 PM
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
b) My understanding is that as long as there are living parents, guardianship does not grant the camp custody, and parents do not relinquish their rights to the child.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 28, 2020, 02:43:04 PM
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.I doubt you need to worry about CS, any social worker would conclude that the healthiest place to send the kid to is home with his parents. And this is only on the small chance they seem it unsafe. But yes, it could open the door to a host of issues (specifically if later down the road can this be used to gain custiodianship)
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.
I'm sure there is a way to structure it like an extended babysitting. As in fully the parents kid but they went out of town for a month and signed kid over to an aunt. I recall people going through formalities in the past.
Anyone familiar with different of forms of guardianship?
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 02:48:20 PM
Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.
That was my advice... they seem to think that since their child's school (who's also running the camp) is asking for it, it's ok. I'm not that trusting... there's a reason why 98% of camps didn't go that route.
Post by: Lurker on June 28, 2020, 02:51:30 PM
a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
b) My understanding is that as long as there are living parents, guardianship does not grant the camp custody, and parents do not relinquish their rights to the child.
A) I have no idea if there would be any. I only said putting them aside, because that was the question asked, which I didnt have an answer to.
B) I think you may be putting too much faith in the bureaucracy of Children's Services. Based on the limited exposure I've had to that world, I'd take any and all possible precautions to avoid giving them any excuse to have any access or interaction with my family.
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2020, 02:52:56 PM
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt. plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.
The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols - though that too seems to be a theory, rather than absolute knowledge), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.
However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.
Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).
Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
Post by: Euclid on June 28, 2020, 03:06:13 PM
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.
The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.
However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.
Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).
Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
ETA: very nice summary @ExGingi
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2020, 03:23:41 PM
All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.
ETA: very nice summary @ExGingi
The mistrust of the medical establishment is based on the same roots. Lack of humility and outright arrogance/Kefirah, and using current THEORIES to impose modalities (in public health pandemic control as well as individual treatments) masquerading as science/knowledge and not acknowledging shortcomings.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 28, 2020, 04:24:06 PM
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.
What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Just curious, how old are the kids that they would be signing over for?
Post by: cgr on June 28, 2020, 04:34:07 PM
Just curious, how old are the kids that they would be signing over for?
One kid age 17.
Post by: S209 on June 28, 2020, 11:55:38 PM
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.Nuance, please. If you’re point is that people are stupid, I won’t argue. If your point is that you’re right to throw out medical knowledge and rely on your instincts based on your faulty understanding of what’s going on, then
The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols - though that too seems to be a theory, rather than absolute knowledge), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.
However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.
Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).
Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
1) Government and doctors are *not* the same. This seems to need repeating, so just repeat that a few times to yourself. Please don’t bring Cuomo into a legitimate discussion of the facts. Ever again.
2) Theory is all we have in a lot more areas of medicine than you seem to think, and yes we base lots of medical (and policy) decisions on those (current theories are a bit better than those we used in medieval times). When informed theory is all you have, that’s a lot better than some ill-informed laymen deciding personal medical policy that convenient for themselves but badly misinformed.
3) Aerosolized transmission has been proven many times and has been common medical knowledge for months.
4) There is in fact a lot more known about this virus than is known about many areas of medicine that have been studied for years. Doctors didn’t know much about the virus right when it came out (obviously). They know a *lot* about it by now, and have for months.
5) When doctors were first faced with the virus they handled it improperly because they hadn’t seen it before. That’s not something wrong with medicine, that’s life. Go underwrite a policy for something you never heard of until last week with unquantifiable risks and an unknown payout and let’s see what you come up. Hopefully outcomes are already improving as we have discovered a lot about it. That’s great, and something to cheer. It’s presumably somewhat safer to get COVID now than it was a few months ago. But we haven’t discovered a legitimate cure or vaccine yet.
6) Obviously people who were careful after exposure still got it. They were exposed before they were careful. Obviously some people who weren’t careful didn’t get it (yet). Nothing infects everybody all of the time. But don’t tempt fate too much.
7) Unfortunately you’re right, many doctors are kofrim. I beg of you, should someone need urgent chemotherapy or other medical treatment, please still advise them to accept the medicine and advice being offered to them. Turns out, the doctors’ personal beliefs have been and still are completely irrelevant to the advice they’re giving.
8 ) If it can’t be done, please explain how every single other Western country has largely reopened and managed to prevent a resurgence, despite having been hit far earlier than the US.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 29, 2020, 12:57:06 AM
Turns out, the doctors’ personal beliefs have been and still are completely irrelevant to the advice they’re giving.
A doctors personal beliefs, particularly the beliefs of a policy setting doctor very much affect their advice.
Maybe you meant to say beliefs dont effect the actual treatment?
This is why Chayim Aruchim and other organizations are so important.
Post by: shapsam on June 29, 2020, 08:15:53 AM
A doctors personal beliefs, particularly the beliefs of a policy setting doctor very much affect their advice.You mean that when those doctors that signed a letter that protests are ok, had their personal beliefs affect their advise?? I thought for sure it was purely medical professionalism. ???
Maybe you meant to say beliefs dont effect the actual treatment?
This is why Chayim Aruchim and other organizations are so important.
Post by: yungermanchik on June 29, 2020, 09:10:03 AM
1) Government and doctors are *not* the same. This seems to need repeating, so just repeat that a few times to yourself.That is incorrect! Doctors are being "guided" by the CDC which is a highly politicized government organization. In fact, my doctor told me one thing over the tele-medicine appointment (when what he says can get him in trouble) and then told his shul something entirely different.
Post by: S209 on June 29, 2020, 10:06:33 AM
That is incorrect! Doctors are being "guided" by the CDC which is a highly politicized government organization. In fact, my doctor told me one thing over the tele-medicine appointment (when what he says can get him in trouble) and then told his shul something entirely different.And here’s your proof. Exactly my point. You can get an honest opinion from your doctor if you (or your Shul) ask. They don’t really care what the CDC says.
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 29, 2020, 10:10:49 AM
And here’s your proof. Exactly my point. You can get an honest opinion from your doctor if you (or your Shul) ask. They don’t really care what the CDC says.What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 29, 2020, 10:12:15 AM
What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?You should find a new one.
Post by: etech0 on June 29, 2020, 10:17:56 AM
You should find a new one.new doctor or new shul?
Post by: Lurker on June 29, 2020, 10:32:45 AM
What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?
I don't understand why people wouldn't dream of using an accountant they don't trust, but anyone with an MD after their name will do for medical issues.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 29, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
new doctor or new shul?Neither. Doctor who does pray.
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2020, 12:11:22 PM
I don't understand why people wouldn't dream of using an accountant they don't trust, but anyone with an MD after their name will do for medical issues.Trust means davening in their shul?
Post by: Lurker on June 29, 2020, 12:57:22 PM
Trust means davening in their shul?
Huh? I was questioning the premise of the question. If either of those things are important to you (ie. davening in your shul or praying at all), then why would you be seeing someone who doesn't fit that criteria?
And to that end, @yungermanchik probably shouldn't be seeing a doctor who gives medical advice he doesn't believe in. That doctor needs to be called out.
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2020, 01:18:45 PM
Huh? I was questioning the premise of the question. If either of those things are important to you (ie. davening in your shul or praying at all), then why would you be seeing someone who doesn't fit that criteria?One of us is not following the conversation.
And to that end, @yungermanchik probably shouldn't be seeing a doctor who gives medical advice he doesn't believe in. That doctor needs to be called out.Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.
Post by: S209 on June 29, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
One of us is not following the conversation. Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.Don’t all professionals have that? Why do you feel doctors specifically are more likely to have their views clouded by fear of a lawsuit? Do you consistently question your doctor’s advice because you think he doesn’t have your best interests at heart?
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2020, 01:31:59 PM
Don’t all professionals have that? Why do you feel doctors specifically are more likely to have their views clouded by fear of a lawsuit? Do you consistently question your doctor’s advice because you think he doesn’t have your best interests at heart?I can't think of any profession with anywhere near the risk a Dr has for a malpractice lawsuit.
Post by: Lurker on June 29, 2020, 01:33:59 PM
One of us is not following the conversation.
"Doctors and the government lied to us, so they don't deserve our trust."
"Don't equate doctors and government. You can trust doctors."
"Not true. The CDC controls the doctors. A doctor lied to me, but told the truth to his shul."
"Proof that if you can get truthful info from a doctor if you or your shul ask."
"What if my doctor doesn't go to my shul or even prays?"
Me, questioning why anyone would go to a doctor who you don't trust (in the context of this conversation, apparently that means they daven in your shul or pray in general).
Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.
There are enough doctors who are decent human beings in the world. Why get your medical guidance from someone who is more interested in covering his a$$ than giving proper medical advice? It's a bit beyond me...
FWIW, there are many accountants who do taxes in the most square way for CYA purposes, as well. They don't get a lot of business from our communities.
Post by: presidentialplus on June 29, 2020, 02:33:45 PM
Wasn't Cuomo supposed to file a response by Friday afternoon?
Post by: Lurker on June 29, 2020, 02:37:38 PM
Any updates on the TRO?
Wasn't Cuomo supposed to file a response by Friday afternoon?
Response was due at 12 today, IINM.
Post by: username on June 29, 2020, 02:48:12 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on June 29, 2020, 03:27:50 PM
Response was due at 12 today, IINM.
Any way we can see the text of that response?
Post by: NTorch on June 29, 2020, 03:50:57 PM
Any way we can see the text of that response?
Ten cents a page on PACER, up to $3.00 for the document.
Post by: presidentialplus on June 29, 2020, 04:41:32 PM
Why isn't it being publicized?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 29, 2020, 05:42:05 PM
Ten cents a page on PACER, up to $3.00 for the document.None of the news bought it?
Post by: ExGingi on June 29, 2020, 08:38:40 PM
FWIW, there are many accountants who do taxes in the most square way for CYA purposes, as well. They don't get a lot of business from our communities.-1000
On several fronts regarding that statement.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 29, 2020, 09:29:11 PM
Post by: CountValentine on June 29, 2020, 09:30:40 PM
Post by: S209 on June 29, 2020, 09:31:23 PM
What does CYA stand for?Be Exceedingly Careful ;)
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 29, 2020, 11:03:23 PM
What does CYA stand for?
Cover Your Assets.
It's a game my family loves to play.
Post by: biobook on June 29, 2020, 11:08:16 PM
How do Cuomo & Co. rationalize that day camps are safer than overnight camps? Instead of camp being isolated, we have the same hundreds of kids going to camp daily, then returning home at night to their families (instead of staying on campus). I truly don't see how from a medical and scientific perspective this makes any sense.What you say does make sense to me, and I had also expected that day camps would be considered more dangerous. But the risk depends on both the frequency and duration of contacts, and duration may be more critical. If a single infected camper or counselor goes to sleep for 8 hours in a room with ten others, they all may be infected by morning.
There is also the problem of quarantining even just one case in the typical camp infirmary. Quarantining several may be impossible.
There might also be concern that the small hospitals in rural areas where camps are found wouldn't be able to cope with an outbreak.
Finally, there might be concern about sending kids back home if an outbreak were to occur. Parents can quickly pick up a sick child from day camp, while they may be many hours away from a sleepaway camp.
A JCC day camp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fifth-coronavirus-case-reported-at-jcc-posnack-summer-camp-in-broward/ar-BB15Vj3V) here had 3 covid cases in the preschool camp and sent the kids home for a week while sanitizing. The following week 2 more cases occurred in the older camp, and again those kids were sent home. It's hard to imagine being able to send kids back and forth like this from a sleepaway camp, should an outbreak occur.
Post by: whacked1 on June 29, 2020, 11:18:50 PM
Cover Your Assets.Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 29, 2020, 11:21:10 PM
Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"Pictures or it didn't happen. No way you're serious
Post by: 123-Rosh on June 30, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum? Why are inappropriate jokes allowed?
Post by: S209 on June 30, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum? Why are inappropriate jokes allowed?Define inappropriate
Post by: Euclid on June 30, 2020, 10:08:06 AM
Define inappropriateAlso define family friendly. Some of the "debates" here devolve into something quite ugly.
Post by: NTorch on June 30, 2020, 10:10:28 AM
Quote
TEXT ORDER : With respect to any request made by the public to access the hearing scheduled for June 30, 2020 via Skype for Business, in civil cases, the public may access the hearing by viewing the video proceeding in a designated area of the U.S. Courthouse in Syracuse, New York or Albany, New York, upon request, and MAY NOT record any part of the hearing. Judicial Conference policy generally prohibits the broadcasting of proceedings in federal trial courts (JCUS-SEP 94, pp. 46-47; Guide to Judiciary Policy, Vol. 10, Ch. 4). The Executive Committee of the Judicial Conference, however, has approved a temporary exception to the policy to allow a judge to authorize the use of viewing the video proceeding in a designated area of the the U.S. Courthouse to provide the public and the media audio access to court proceedings. SO ORDERED by Chief Judge Glenn T. Suddaby on 6/29/2020. (sal) (Entered: 06/29/2020)
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 30, 2020, 10:10:41 AM
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum?So is Ami.
Post by: NTorch on June 30, 2020, 10:12:43 AM
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum? Why are inappropriate jokes allowed?
Cover Your Assets.
It's a game my family loves to play.
???
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 30, 2020, 10:24:23 AM
If you want to watch the proceedings before Judge Suddaby at 10:00 AM today, you need to take a drive up to Syracuse:
Why are certain people allowed to watch them from home and some need to drive jp?
Post by: NTorch on June 30, 2020, 10:38:12 AM
Why are certain people allowed to watch them from home and some need to drive jp?
The only people watching remotely are the parties and their attorneys who have access to the skype login.
They do not allow observers and they know who is on based on your login. I had a Court appearance yesterday and the Court Tech staff was asking people who were not involved to log off.
Post by: NTorch on June 30, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on June 30, 2020, 12:54:27 PM
Post by: Boruch Parnes on June 30, 2020, 05:25:24 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on June 30, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
He said he's not issuing a ruling today, per Kol Haolam.
Why not? Would love to hear an update on today's hearing...
Post by: iluv2travel on June 30, 2020, 06:27:17 PM
Don't know yet what happened before Judge Suddaby today, but the AG's office has ordered the transcript as an overnight job, which often (but not always) means that there was an adverse ruling that they would want to appeal.
Does an adverse ruling mean that perhaps the TRO was issued? If yes, can that even be appealed? There was some discussion here about that but not sure what the final verdict was regarding if it can be appealed or not.
Post by: iluv2travel on June 30, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Why not? Would love to hear an update on today's hearing...
https://hamodia.com/2020/06/30/hearing-held-ny-overnight-camps/
Judge is allowing another day for a submission of additional briefs from both sides.
Post by: dave345 on July 01, 2020, 11:41:44 AM
https://www.duvys.com/clients/horei/
Post by: YitzyS on July 02, 2020, 01:08:10 PM
Post by: joeb1 on July 02, 2020, 01:14:14 PM
Post by: YitzyS on July 02, 2020, 01:16:39 PM
fake news as of now
There is unfortunately misinformation being spread on WhatsApp. It is incorrect & wrong. Yesterdays submission from the State is being used to spread this incorrect information. We will know a conclusion when the court issues one. As of 1:15pm Thursday there is still no ruling.
— Chaskel Bennett (@ChaskelBennett) July 2, 2020
Post by: YitzyS on July 02, 2020, 01:26:55 PM
NEW YORK: We deleted a tweet since it contained mistaken info. The judge is expected to issue a ruling by today on the restraining order to allow overnight camps in NY.
— KolHaolam (@KolHaolam) July 2, 2020
Post by: NTorch on July 02, 2020, 03:23:08 PM
NEW YORK: We deleted a tweet since it contained mistaken info. The judge is expected to issue a ruling by today on the restraining order to allow overnight camps in NY.
— KolHaolam (@KolHaolam) July 2, 2020
Mistaken info does not mean a fake tweet or fake news - just that they deleted their own tweet because the info was wrong.
Post by: Traveler718 on July 02, 2020, 07:35:01 PM
Post by: YitzyS on July 02, 2020, 08:01:18 PM
So it seems that the ruling isn't coming out today as expected. With tomorrow being a holiday, is it still possible for the judge to issue his ruling before Shabbos, or is that against protocol when courthouses are closed?I don't know the protocol, but the judge knows that this is very time sensitive, so I imagine he'll issue his decision on the injunction before Shabbos.
Post by: yesitsme on July 02, 2020, 11:36:35 PM
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240https://www.amazon.com/NoCampThisYear
thanks to gov cuomo
oops runtime error 404 not found.........
Post by: Yef on July 03, 2020, 12:56:59 AM
https://www.amazon.com/NoCampThisYearWhat happened to the Lenox situation?
oops runtime error 404 not found.........
Post by: Joel on July 03, 2020, 01:04:24 AM
What happened to the Lenox situation?Issues with the local Government
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 09:52:03 AM
I don't know the protocol, but the judge knows that this is very time sensitive, so I imagine he'll issue his decision on the injunction before Shabbos.Like you thought he'd do 10 days ago?
Post by: YitzyS on July 03, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Like you thought he'd do 10 days ago?IIRC, he denied requests for extensions, citing the sensitivity to time.
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 10:42:29 AM
IIRC, he denied requests for extensions, citing the sensitivity to time.Selective memory. He granted the State's first extension request (although by less days than they requested).
Post by: Yef on July 03, 2020, 10:57:55 AM
Issues with the local GovernmentAny chances of it getting resolved?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 03, 2020, 01:49:03 PM
Any chances of it getting resolved?Camp stolin was just banned from opening up in MA.
Post by: yesitsme on July 03, 2020, 02:14:41 PM
Camp stolin was just banned from opening up in MA.MA moved camps to phase 4
Post by: ar on July 03, 2020, 04:49:35 PM
Post by: Joel on July 03, 2020, 05:39:37 PM
Issues with the local Government(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
Post by: ExGingi on July 03, 2020, 05:44:37 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
How is there an option in MA when MA is the problem with the previous solution?
Post by: Euclid on July 03, 2020, 05:46:38 PM
How is there an option in MA when MA is the problem with the previous solution?Seems like a semantic difference to me - "campground" vs "sleepaway camp"
Post by: ExGingi on July 03, 2020, 05:49:59 PM
Seems like a semantic difference to me - "campground" vs "sleepaway camp"
I wouldn't gamble and put my hopes on a sematic differentiation (especially in the current environment).
Post by: Ergel on July 05, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Post by: joeberg on July 05, 2020, 10:01:29 PM
Post by: Ergel on July 06, 2020, 02:38:42 AM
He tested positive on his precamp test? Why was he allowed in before the results came back?Negative pre-camp
Positive on arrival
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2020, 02:38:45 PM
Post by: Abebee on July 06, 2020, 03:32:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
Post by: Traveler718 on July 06, 2020, 03:45:03 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 04:00:53 PM
They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
As in their camp in the Catskills?
Any updates on the judge ruling on the TRO? Everyone assumed it would come out late Thursday. Now the judge had a long weekend for a time-sensitive issue, and still no ruling either way? I really feel for the camps to be kept in limbo for so long.
+1, feel the same. Would be nice if a ruling would be issued once and for all.
Post by: NTorch on July 06, 2020, 04:08:27 PM
Would be nice if a ruling would be issued once and for all.
Nothing new filed on the docket since Friday.
Keep in mind the old joke - the only difference between Hashem and a Federal District Court Judge is that Hashem does not think that he is a Federal District Court Judge.
Post by: Eb228 on July 06, 2020, 04:09:05 PM
Any updates on the judge ruling on the TRO? Everyone assumed it would come out late Thursday. Now the judge had a long weekend for a time-sensitive issue, and still no ruling either way? I really feel for the camps to be kept in limbo for so long.
Honestly I also feel for the judge.
Seems he thinks the camps are right [as per his writings before the case], but knows that if he rules for them his career is over as the Dems rule NY one party.
Quite a pickle.
Post by: avromie7 on July 06, 2020, 04:15:22 PM
Honestly I also feel for the judge.I'm not understanding why his career would be over based on that. He works for the Federal government and has a lifetime appointment.
Seems he thinks the camps are right [as per his writings before the case], but knows that if he rules for them his career is over as the Dems rule NY one party.
Quite a pickle.
Post by: NTorch on July 06, 2020, 04:19:34 PM
Honestly I also feel for the judge.
Seems he thinks the camps are right [as per his writings before the case], but knows that if he rules for them his career is over as the Dems rule NY one party.
Quite a pickle.
Respectfully, you must have this Judge confused with someone else. Federal Judges are appointed for life so his career is not over, regardless of how he rules.
Also, Federal Judges are appointed by the President. If he ruled against Democrats and this ruling made any impact on the President, he would have Judge Suddaby on the short list for an Appeals bench position.
Post by: gozalim on July 06, 2020, 04:21:55 PM
Would be nice if a ruling would be issued once and for all.one was. by the governor/state.
it will continue to be appealed until the camps get opened or rosh chodesh elul, whichever comes first
Post by: avromie7 on July 06, 2020, 04:30:09 PM
it will continue to be appealed until the camps get opened or rosh chodesh elul, whichever comes firstOr the Supreme Court declines to take the case.
Post by: Abebee on July 06, 2020, 05:00:49 PM
As in their camp in the Catskills?Highland
Post by: Traveler718 on July 06, 2020, 05:41:30 PM
Highland
As in back to NY where sleepaway camps are currently illegal, and specifically in Ulster County which has been particularly aggressive in trying to prevent them from open. I feel terrible about what happened to them in MA, but not sure this was the best way to respond...
Post by: presidentialplus on July 06, 2020, 05:59:24 PM
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2020, 06:02:06 PM
TRO was deinedLink?
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on July 06, 2020, 06:03:15 PM
#BreakingNews: Federal Judge locks door on summer camp.
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) July 6, 2020
In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer.
Details to follow. pic.twitter.com/a9WZ5JzrcY
Post by: presidentialplus on July 06, 2020, 06:03:24 PM
Link?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PWvsgLKYoeQ-JJGcYDOnEMg8OJjMMiqr/view?usp=sharing
Post by: NTorch on July 06, 2020, 06:07:52 PM
#BreakingNews: Federal Judge locks door on summer camp.
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) July 6, 2020
In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer.
Details to follow. pic.twitter.com/a9WZ5JzrcY
I thought that trying to get a TRO was worth a shot, but the tweet that "Federal Judge locks door on summer camp. In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer" is just plain wrong.
Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 06, 2020, 06:08:41 PM
Post by: S209 on July 06, 2020, 06:09:59 PM
Post by: YitzyS on July 06, 2020, 06:15:25 PM
Post by: NTorch on July 06, 2020, 06:17:27 PM
Quote
Plaintiffs have provided no factual allegations or evidence to indicate that the fact that only Jewish overnight camps have continued to plan to open for the summer leads to the conclusion that Defendant’s executive orders have targeted the Jewish faith. To the contrary, it is undisputed that Defendant’s ban on overnight camps applies equally to all such camps, regardless of the camps’ religious (or secular) nature. The fact that Plaintiffs have maintained a hope and willingness to operate or send their children to overnight camps this summer longer than most persons involved with secular or non-Jewish overnight camps does not somehow turn Defendant’s facially neutral executive order into impermissible targeting.
Quote
Plaintiffs also argue that Defendant’s exemptions for activities such as day camps and childcare facilities are comparable conduct to overnight camps. Try as the Court might to sincerely understand Plaintiffs’ analogy, the Court must ultimately admit that Plaintiffs’ analogy is weak. Although day camps and childcare facilities have congregate settings, they are significantly more limited than those settings present in overnight camps. Day camps’ congregate settings are traditionally limited to the dining facility, where campers usuallycongretate for just one meal a day, as compared to overnight camps where campers traditionally congregate for three meals a day and then congregate again (this time with a smaller group) for approximately eight hours in an enclosed area, usually for weeks on end. By nature, day camps and childcare facilities provide less opportunity for the transmission of the COVID-19 virus simply because the individual attendees spend significantly less time with their fellow campers as compared to overnight camps. As the State argues, groups of individuals contained within a confined sleeping area each night runs contrary to the public health principals that have helped New York State substantially reduce the transmission of the COVID-19 virus.
Quote
Moreover, Defendant argues that overnight camps are uniquely situated as potential vectors for the spread of the COVID-19 virus because overnight camps pose a great risk not only within itself, but to the local communities as well. This is because, unlike day camps or childcare facilities, where travel by campers is necessarily limited to a reasonable distance due to the need for them to return home at the end of the day, overnight camps involve significant long-distance travel and an influx of people from multiple areas to a more remote location where those campers will become a part of the community, from a practical standpoint, for a significant period of time. This can create burdens on local resources that are not present with day camps or childcare facilities. For example, Defendant cites to the circumstances in Sullivan County, located in the Catskills region of New York State, where Defendant estimates that approximately sixty-two percent of the Jewish overnight camps are located. (Dkt. No. 25, Attach. 1, at ⁋⁋ 9-14.) According to Defendant, Sullivan County has only one hospital, with two locations throughout the entire county, in addition to ten Article 28 diagnostic treatment centers and hospital extension clinic sites. (Id. at 10, 13.) In total, Sullivan County has approximately 169 licensed beds, thirteen intensive-care-unit beds, and fifteen certified beds that can provide both acute and subacute rehabilitation services. (Id. at 11-12.) At oral argument, Plaintiffs explained that in a usual summer, approximately forty-two thousand campers attended approximately fifty to sixty Jewish overnight camps located in New York State. (Hearing Transcript.) Although a significant drop off in these numbers is expected due to a truncated summer and concerns over the COVID-19 virus (Hearing Transcript), should an outbreak occur at the camps, the situation could overrun the hospitals within Sullivan County and require hundreds of individual children to be quarantined at the individual camps, potentially hundreds of miles away from their families
Quote
In this case, Defendant’s executive orders bar all overnight camps from opening during the summer of 2020. Instead of explaining why Jewish overnight camps are being treated differently than are secular overnight camps, Plaintiffs (with all due respect) confuse Defendant’s public comments seemingly showing support for the rights implicated by the mass protests over the death of George Floyd with Defendant’s alleged disregard for religion in failing to grant a similar exemption to Jewish overnight camps. (Dkt. No. 7, Attach. 2, at 9-11.) Simply stated, the Court finds that permitting children to sleep in groups in enclosed spaces for eight hours per day in overnight camps is not sufficiently comparable to permitting conscious adults to shelter for shorter periods of time inside theater and museum lobbies during mass protests. For example, at the time of this writing, although many mass protestors appear to have been violating social distancing protocols by engaging in various outdoor protests, no evidence has emerged that protestors have been so often assembling in such close proximity in enclosed spaces for such a long period of time that reasonably compares to the way children typically sleep in cabins at overnight camp.
Post by: yaakov35 on July 06, 2020, 06:17:29 PM
Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.
Incorrect. Frum people/organizations were making the most noise and were the ones to file the lawsuit. Cuomo did it precisely to show them he's boss.
Post by: boro boy on July 06, 2020, 06:19:05 PM
https://hamodia.acemlna.com/lt.php?s=3f7ebebfb9b1ba61a23fd051f1f35bbb&i=2442A2504A16A91209
:'(
Post by: boro boy on July 06, 2020, 06:19:47 PM
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 06:20:22 PM
Nothing new filed on the docket since Friday.
Keep in mind the old joke - the only difference between Hashem and a Federal District Court Judge is that Hashem does not think that he is a Federal District Court Judge.
LOL ;D
I thought that trying to get a TRO was worth a shot, but the tweet that "Federal Judge locks door on summer camp. In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer" is just plain wrong.
Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.
I don't agree either with their wording, however they are just wording it the way the lawsuit was filed and it was filed that way because that's how they somehow felt they had the best shot at achieving their goal.
This was absolutely not a public health decision IMHO. It was a totally political decision. If it would be public health decision they would have made the SAME EXACT decision for all those mass protests!!! But nooooooo, those get totally different standards applied...
Post by: CountValentine on July 06, 2020, 06:21:53 PM
This was absolutely not a public health decision IMHO. It was a totally political decision. If it would be public health decision they would have made the SAME EXACT decision for all those mass protests!!! But nooooooo, those get totally different standards applied...Give it a break!!!
Post by: S209 on July 06, 2020, 06:23:55 PM
Some language in this decision makes me cringe:Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.
Post by: yaakov35 on July 06, 2020, 06:27:42 PM
Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit
Post by: Abebee on July 06, 2020, 06:30:04 PM
They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 06:30:48 PM
Wonder if the final answer for the poll will end up being a fourth option: Yes first half (those who’ve already gone up) but no second (if they’re shut down ch”v)
You would need to add "in NY" to the poll because out of state camps are operating legally and don't run the risk of being shut down (hopefully).
Give it a break!!!
Excuse me? I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect yours. If you can't respect mine then you can opt out of this discussion.
Post by: boro boy on July 06, 2020, 06:31:43 PM
wow
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 06:33:58 PM
Ouch. :'(
Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit
Double ouch... Unfortunately based on the Judge's stance it seems they have a real uphill battle using their current argument(s).
Post by: CountValentine on July 06, 2020, 06:35:05 PM
Excuse me? I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect yours. If you can't respect mine then you can opt out of this discussion.I didn't say I didn't respect your opinion. Back to your regular scheduled program.
Post by: S209 on July 06, 2020, 06:36:51 PM
Ouch. :'(Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
Double ouch... Unfortunately based on the Judge's stance it seems they have a real uphill battle using their current argument(s).
Post by: yaakov35 on July 06, 2020, 06:41:36 PM
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at allThe downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
Post by: Traveler718 on July 06, 2020, 06:49:20 PM
Anyone have any more info about the other camp in Ulster with a positive Covid case that's mentioned in Stolin's letter? Is it a frum camp? Sleepaway or day? Camper or staffer?
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 06:54:23 PM
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
The downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
Not only this, but I think they were hoping that, because the Judge in the religious gatherings case had ruled against the governor pointing to the protests argument, that it would work here as well but alas this Judge didn't quite see it that way.
Post by: S209 on July 06, 2020, 06:57:19 PM
The downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
Not only this, but I think they were hoping that, because the Judge in the religious gatherings case had ruled against the governor pointing to the protests argument, that it would work here as well but alas this Judge didn't quite see it that way.
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 06, 2020, 07:50:08 PM
Post by: yaakov35 on July 06, 2020, 08:22:31 PM
I told you so.40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
Post by: 123-Rosh on July 06, 2020, 09:39:59 PM
40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
Trying to talk to platinumguy is like trying to explain to whites what it means for blacks to experience racism. There's no one home. Don't bother.
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 09:40:59 PM
40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
Very sad is putting it mildly. That's the understatement of the millennium.
And just to be clear, I have zero skin in the game here. I'm not a camp owner or director, nor am I remotely related to one. Not even my kids are impacted by this decision with our camp having successfully moved to PA.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I just feel it was extremely unfair to come out with this ban in the name of public health after all that went on in NY (and all over the country) with the mass protests and doing nothing to stop THAT in the name of public health and safety. On the contrary, it was actively condoned by our governor (as well as mayor but he's irrelevant in this discussion anyway). Elected officials should not behave this way and have a double standard and I know I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 09:43:02 PM
Trying to talk to platinumguy is like trying to explain to whites what it means for blacks to experience racism. There's no one home. Don't bother.
Where did I recently see this quote :o?
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2020, 09:50:36 PM
Post by: CountValentine on July 06, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/coronavirus/ny-ban-sleep-away-camps-summer-due-covid-19/#comment-1480857Have or will you be sending your kids to camp?
To personal of a question?
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2020, 09:55:37 PM
Have or will you be sending your kids to camp?My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by @Barryg, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. The cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp. Seems like enrollment is way down, but we'll see if Barry wants to fill us in.
To personal of a question?
My younger 3 kids are home.
Post by: CountValentine on July 06, 2020, 09:57:31 PM
My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by a DDFer, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. But the cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp.Nice but 9 already? :)
My younger 3 kids are home.
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2020, 09:58:21 PM
Nice but 9 already? :)Jewish 9, english 8 :)
Post by: biobook on July 06, 2020, 10:27:29 PM
Post by: yitzgar on July 06, 2020, 10:38:29 PM
Very sad is putting it mildly. That's the understatement of the millennium.But officer....?
And just to be clear, I have zero skin in the game here. I'm not a camp owner or director, nor am I remotely related to one. Not even my kids are impacted by this decision with our camp having successfully moved to PA.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I just feel it was extremely unfair to come out with this ban in the name of public health after all that went on in NY (and all over the country) with the mass protests and doing nothing to stop THAT in the name of public health and safety. On the contrary, it was actively condoned by our governor (as well as mayor but he's irrelevant in this discussion anyway). Elected officials should not behave this way and have a double standard and I know I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Post by: iluv2travel on July 06, 2020, 11:16:38 PM
My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by @Barryg, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. The cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp. Seems like enrollment is way down, but we'll see if Barry wants to fill us in.
My younger 3 kids are home.
Sounds like a great day camp! A 9 year old should not be at sleepaway camp either way so this is the right place for him. Everyone has a different threshold, but I wouldn't send below age 13.
But officer....?
Care to explain? Sorry, not quite following.
Post by: yitzgar on July 06, 2020, 11:24:26 PM
Sounds like a great day camp! A 9 year old should not be at sleepaway camp either way so this is the right place for him. Everyone has a different threshold, but I wouldn't send below age 13.The fact that they are hypocrites has no bearing on the matter at hand.
Care to explain? Sorry, not quite following.
(I can't believe you haven't seen the "but officer he was speeding too" analogy here)
Post by: iluv2travel on July 07, 2020, 12:27:27 AM
The fact that they are hypocrites has no bearing on the matter at hand.
(I can't believe you haven't seen the "but officer he was speeding too" analogy here)
Because it totally is not a comparison here so it wouldn't dawn on me to use that analogy.
Hypocrisy sure does have a bearing and the Judge in the religious gathering lawsuit even cited that.
I hope we can all just agree to disagree. Otherwise, we'll keep going in circles. The fact is that sleepaway camps being banned in NY has caused a lot of disappointment to thousands of people and I commiserate with them.
Post by: CountValentine on July 07, 2020, 08:01:35 AM
Because it totally is not a comparison here so it wouldn't dawn on me to use that analogy.If you try to justify one action with another action that is wrong you get "but officer". Just clearing up the meaning.
Post by: NTorch on July 07, 2020, 11:38:07 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 07, 2020, 01:18:06 PM
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Dont believe any Israeli news.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
Post by: yaakov35 on July 07, 2020, 01:31:55 PM
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Whats that got with here? In israel its a danger here it isn't, pretty simple.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
Post by: NTorch on July 07, 2020, 01:35:25 PM
Whats that got with here? In israel its a danger here it isn't, pretty simple.
End of the article - At the outset of the pandemic, the Karliner Chassidim were noted as being among the most COVID-stringent in the entire country.
Post by: yaakov35 on July 07, 2020, 01:38:16 PM
End of the article - At the outset of the pandemic, the Karliner Chassidim were noted as being among the most COVID-stringent in the entire country.That's when it was serious in NY and people were getting sick, which isn't the case now. M any case the only reason stolin didn't open like most other camps is because the rebbeh told them not to do anything illegal.
Post by: Abebee on July 07, 2020, 02:59:45 PM
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Thats in regards to his chassdim in Israel since they are seeing a spike in cases. In America all restriction were lifted by the Rebba around 3 weeks ago.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
Post by: Abebee on July 07, 2020, 03:00:41 PM
That's when it was serious in NY and people were getting sick, which isn't the case now. M any case the only reason stolin didn't open like most other camps is because the rebbeh told them not to do anything illegal.The Rebba told them to go ahead and open yesterda