Doubtful
1. It will be behind us by then.Just going to address 3 because the first 2 you have no idea for sure. But number 3 is certainly not true. No deliveries or guests come to camp? Have you been to a camp before?
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
1. It will be behind us by then.
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
Which camp do you know of has the insurance or medical capabilities to risk an outbreak?
Just going to address 3 because the first 2 you have no idea for sure. But number 3 is certainly not true. No deliveries or guests come to camp? Have you been to a camp before?Yes I have, and for some time running a camp behind the scenes.
Which camp do you know of has the insurance or medical capabilities to risk an outbreak?Ani Ma'amin B'Emuna Shelaima in the Rinbono Shel Olam that this and the Galus will end.
Ani Ma'amin B'Emuna Shelaima in the Rinbono Shel Olam that this and the Galus will end.
So you don't believe there will be camp... got it.Just because the Galus will end, it doesn't mean life as we know it ends. Look at the (I believe it's) Rambam
Will camps be cancelled this year? Will people be going to bungalow colonies?
Yes I have, and for some time running a camp behind the scenes.What about contact with others who do come in contact?
1. The people making the deliveries have zero to minimum contact with people on campus.
2. For the minimum contact, there are rules that can be enacted & enforced.
What about contact with others who do come in contact?
1. It will be behind us by then.1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?
2. They say the summer will kill the virus.
3. The camp is quarantined in it self.
1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?1. This
2. The summer won't kill the virus. We know this for a fact because it's ravaging in places where it is summer.
3. Like the cruise ships.
1. Pray tell when and why it will be gone?1. Because God runs this world
2. The summer won't kill the virus. We know this for a fact because it's ravaging in places where it is summer.
3. Like the cruise ships.
1. Because God runs this worldWe all know that my friend. I believe the people responding are coming from a practical and realistic point of view using the data and general feel that’s out there. There’s nothing wrong with that.
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Something is going to have to open first, IMO camps would probably be high on the list because they can keep out anyone above whatever age (35, 40, 50, or 60?) who didn't test positive for COVID/antibodies, even if it means the director can't come. There will definitely have to be changes, no trips, no guests, etc.And I thought people only lie about their age when it comes to shidduchim...
We all know that my friend. I believe the people responding are coming from a practical and realistic point of view using the data and general feel that’s out there. There’s nothing wrong with that.Don't mean to be a preacher or sound ignorant, but the situation- on a psychological basis- is as bad as we make it. The ones who come out of this victorious are those whose Emunah & Bittachon didn't remain stagnant, rather grew while doing what they can to 'Stop the Spread'
1. Because God runs this worldwhat does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
Don't mean to be a preacher or sound ignorant, but the situation- on a psychological basis- is as bad as we make it. The ones who come out of this victorious are those whose Emunah & Bittachon didn't remain stagnant, rather grew while doing what they can to 'Stop the Spread'What does this have to do with being realistic when deciding whether make plans?
what does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
What does this have to do with being realistic when deciding whether make plans?A decision to go to a Bungalow Colony or Camp this summer you it should have been already. Making backup plans, that's up to you.
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'again nothing to do with anything
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
I was so close to giving a deposit for camp (day camp) before this got out of hand. So happy I waitedim sure they would have returned to you
1. Because God runs this worldBut why are you so confident that his will is for camps to be open?
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
im sure they would have returned to youNot so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.There is one camp that sent out a letter. Hamaivin Yovin
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.ive heard of a few camps that sent back the deposits
im sure they would have returned to you
Not so sure. I gave a deposit, and it does not seem like they are opening, yet no money returned yet. Yeshivahs at least by me are cashing headchecks business as usual, with no communication with the parents. Money makes people do funny things.
im sure they would have returned to youits much easier to not give $ then to get it back
ive heard of a few camps that sent back the depositsWhich?
Another but similar thing I was wondering, should be a different thread but I'll add it here:There is another thread
Will seminaries in E"Y be open next year ( September 2020)?
I heard that Gan Israel Montreal, one of largest Lubavitch camps formally notified parents that they will not be opening.Any source for that? From their website it looks like it's on (so far).
Any source for that? From their website it looks like it's on (so far).Relative of mine who was registered was called by the camp and told they are not opening. Don’t know if that’s limited to his section of camp or the whole camp.
Relative of mine who was registered was called by the camp and told they are not opening. Don’t know if that’s limited to his section of camp or the whole camp.Wow, okay then.
1. Because God runs this world
2. I hear... maybe... but remember God runs this world
3. The ship was infected by people who came on and was never properly disinfected before round two
what does Gd runs the world have to do anything? Wasn’t he running the World when the virus came in the first place??
Yes and some people are blind. Now even the atheists are starting to say 'Etzba Elokim Hi'
Wow, okay then.Just checked with them. They received an email that is now being rumored as inauthentic. So I take that back.
Noboby knows for sure. Would be nice if someone who directs a camp would chime in here on what is going on behind the scenes.
I heard that Gan Israel Montreal, one of largest Lubavitch camps formally notified parents that they will not be opening. Canada might be more stringent than the U.S.
In general there are many unknowns at this point, to the extent where it's impossible to make preparations for camp without risking large sums of money.
As others have mentioned, schools may consider running through the summer. Even if elementary schools don't, yeshivos might want bochurim to make up for lost time and not allow them to staff the summer camps. High school students may need to take state regents in June-August. (NYS cancelled regents, not sure about others)
We may be looking at a hybrid school/day-camp situation for elementary schools if we are out of the Covid danger by summer.
As for bungalow colonies, if schools are running, bungalow colonies are not happening. This is aside from the fact that the already fiercely anti-Semitic Sullivan County will fight tooth and nail to not allow them to open this year.
...
How can they do that? Don’t the colonies and camps pay the same property tax as the year-round residents?Probably only camps are on the chopping block. Don’t think a colony receives a CO every year.
Don’t think a colony receives a CO every year.Sure colonies are affected. Think day camps permits, pool permits and Shul permits.
Just checked with them. They received an email that is now being rumored as inauthentic. So I take that back.Thanks for the update.
I work for one of the big camps got a phone call today that we should start opening next weekopening what?
opening what?the camp water etc
I work for one of the big camps got a phone call today that we should start opening next weekCan you pull permits to open the camp?
Can you pull permits to open the camp?we only get CO when we pass inspection
we only get CO when we pass inspection
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
What happens when camp is over in middle of an outbreak?
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?What about the bus drivers?
Received an update that CGI Montreal not opening was inauthentic information.was this everyone's news source about them not opening from April 1st?
Without knowing herd immunity numbers, this is risky. Let’s say a camp with had 1k kids and only 10% are immune. One kid brings an infection with him to camp and it spreads slowly, keep in mind incubation period of 3-14 days. By the time the kids leave at the end of 1-2 months, they could send home 10 kids (or more) carrying an active infection out to a population that is still vulnerable.Didn't think of that, valid point.
It’s possible that states will allow camps to open out of desperation. People’s psychological health is suddenly in the center of the conversation now.
halachically permitting.What does the contract say?
What does the contract say?It was prior to Corona.
What does the contract say?Good point.
Good point.I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy.
I don't think any of my children's camp contracts addressed what happens if camp doesn't open. (definitely didn't address trying to provide camp thru zoom).
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?
I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy.If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along
If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)That’s probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he won’t be able to be Motze them either.
If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motzeAylor
AylorThey are taking a loss on the campus plus any deposits for trips, supplies etc. as well as maintenance and year round staff.
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didn’t even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as I’ve heard) and haven’t lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...
That’s probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he won’t be able to be Motze them either.
Is that so? I would think that would be tefisah shelo be reshus once it’s obvious there is an issue with openingHow shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasn’t retracted his authorization
How shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasn’t retracted his authorization
Umdena that he doesn’t realize that his cc is still being charged/ headcheck is still being cashed. No one pays for nothing willingly.They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.
Seem to recall one of The Rabbonim guidelines specifically addressed headchecks. I’ll try to find it later.
They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.
Again, the father certainly has a right to withdraw authorization to charge his card or cancel the checks, but if he does not withdraw permission, the camp would seemingly be fully within its’ rights to cash them assuming they honestly believe they will be opening.
Looks positivehttps://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/
https://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp I’d imagine that social distancing wouldn’t apply.
I think we need to first know what the “precautions” are. Per the above article, if the rules make it impossible for the camps to function, it’s as good as closed.
If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp I’d imagine that social distancing wouldn’t apply.It would be practically impossible to have camp with social distancing. Problem is if kids are asymptomatic it can slowly spread and they will come home with it.
It would be practically impossible to have camp with social distancing. Problem is if kids are asymptomatic it can slowly spread and they will come home with it.So I’m assuming the hope is too test everyone before they come to camp, in two months I believe we will able to know much more clearly who does and doesn’t have the virus
So I’m assuming the hope is too test everyone before they come to camp, in two months I believe we will able to know much more clearly who does and doesn’t have the virusif the news regarding reinfection is true, how does that help us?
if the news regarding reinfection is true, how does that help us?The news regarding reinfection is not yet significant and the prevalent medical theory is that you are immune to it for some period of time. But my point was more that if regular testing for the active virus could tell and guarantee that no one has the virus when they go into camp we could be at a point where it’s viable.
Looks positive
LOL, got a similar letter from my camp but they added "if there is no camp we will issue a full refund of monies paid" :) :) :)Which camp?
The Pesach programs also planned to open.
At least one camp plans to open .I love the even better news. I was thinking a large discount or even free.
Many were in denial long into Covid.
What's the difference?
if the camps are considered essential then they will be allowed to reopen on some level unlike the pesach programs which were not essential
So schools aren't essential, but camps are.I guess they are looking at camps the same as daycare.
At least we have our priorities straight.
I guess they are looking at camps the same as daycare.Also banned in many states.
"camps" are essential is day camp: sleepaway camps are a different ballgame IMOWhy is day camp better then sleep away camp?
Why is day camp better then sleep away camp?
I would think one can be viewed as "essential" (day camp) vs. sleepaway camp is a luxury: it's a similar concept that day camps are deductible on FSA/childcare but sleepaway aren't.I think that the sleep away camps are a much safer environment then kids going back and forth to school everyday
Also, sleepaway camp would probably be viewed as impossible to control SD vs. day camp by gov't.
If you read the government in phase 2 they mentioned "camps"...
https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/coronavirus/board-chair-president-ceo-update-apr-15
This is very confusing.It is written for camp admins.
I like that they are delaying processing of payments till there is clarity.
I like that they are delaying processing of payments till there is clarity.Camp Agudah is delaying as well
My own program, Kids of Courage, has decided not to even consider trip or activities.
Per a conversation with the head of one the main Lubavitch camps, they are very optimistic about opening. I'm not sure I buy it, but it they do open, are you sending your kid to camp?Since kids don't get it bad and my family already had it I probably would send my daughter if her camp opens. (I would obviously ask my doctor first).
Heard from one of the NYS Camps indirectly- that if they do open camps ( talk specifically about this camp but I can't imagine it wont apply to other camps as well) it will be one big quarantine.This is definitely what will happen
Meaning everyone in camp will stay in camp - no visiting day, no visitors, no one coming in/out etc...
This is definitely what will happennoone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarity
noone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarityhttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1854707/sullivan-county-planning-on-summer-camps-opening.html
noone knows there is hope that by next week there will be some clarityMaybe you misunderstood, I meant assuming they are able to open there is no way they'll be letting anyone in or out.
CGI Montreal has the additional burden of having the Canadian border closed. Even if it does open, which I don't think is likely, it would have to be only to Canadians.another reason to be forthcoming that it is unlikely and they should propose a solution
based on the above, i have communicated with the camp on a number of occasions as to what their internal deadlines are etc... and what their expectations of payments are being that they arent charging the installments. so far, there has been no firm responses. only roundabout answers. which leaves a bad feeling... realistically, my opinion, for whatever its worth, is that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a camp to get ready on such short notice and also have the ability to get trips and programs planned etc... i understand this is the administration source of income however, they should be more forthcoming and provide options to parents including a refund if they dont feel safe/comfortable sending their child.
Personally I doll wouldn’t be sending my kid unless things changed drastically over the next month.
realistically, my opinion, for whatever its worth, is that it is HIGHLY unlikely for a camp to get ready on such short notice and also have the ability to get trips and programs planned etc...I don't know about cgi Montreal, but I am involved in a different camp and we are operating under the assumption that camp will open, so planning for most programs are well underway. Obviously trips are more complicated and we aren't putting deposits on anything, but we hope to start that as soon as we have more info.
Not camp, but my daughter's friend and her family already went up for the summer, since all the kids are doing distance learning anyway.I know some people that went up. It’s a bad idea. I don’t need to explain why.
Not camp, but my daughter's friend and her family already went up for the summer, since all the kids are doing distance learning anyway.
I know some people that went up. It’s a bad idea. I don’t need to explain why.Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating there
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating thereSeems to me that it would work better than in the tight quarters of the city.
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating thereAre they going shopping there?
Maybe you should. Because lots of people don’t see the problem with traveling to a summer home or the like and isolating there
Looks like it might be happen
Looks like it might be happenThat's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.
That's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.I hear, but R senter got permission for his yeshiva to open in Pennsylvania, might not be so far fetched
That's what Pesach programs also said until the 11th hour.All the big camps started charging. I think its safe to say that in 2 months, things can be worked out to make it safe.
All the big camps started charging. I think its safe to say that in 2 months, things can be worked out to make it safe.Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.
Looks like it might be happenSome kids might not be interested in camp with no trips and other restrictions.
Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.
It's the refunding that's tricky.
GL.
Charging is the easy part. Even Pesach programs figured out how to charge.Most camps stopped charging and only continued now. They all are charging knowing that they may have to refund. (Heard this from 4 camp head directors)
It's the refunding that's tricky.
GL.
Some kids might not be interested in camp with no trips and other restrictions.
I hear, but R senter got permission for his yeshiva to open in Pennsylvania, might not be so far fetched
Let's hope this doesn't happen because we could be looking at situations where camps would have to go bankrupt if they started preparing for camp and had to stop abruptly at the 11th hour.
One more reason not to let them charge, then you’ll be guilty of bankrupting them when you demand the refund you deserve when they decide not to open.
Are you talking about Old camps or New Ones?It’s not about losing a name. The costs they have to put into preparing camp every year won’t be recouped on their end. Most camp operators live off this the whole year and don’t have reserves to cover these costs and refund the parents.
The new ones I would be wary, old ones would be stupid to loose a name over money.
The new ones I would be wary, old ones would be stupid to loose a name over money.Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds when they had to cancel at the 11th hour.
Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds.
Not.
(https://www.myinstants.com/media/instants_images/boratnot.jpg)Point Taken. I will ask one of the directors on Sunday.
Point Taken. I will ask one of the directors on Sunday.You're going to ask a nogaya b'davar. What will that prove?
You're going to ask a nogaya b'davar. What will that prove?Asking why they started charging and what his plan is.
Asking why they started charging and what his plan is.They're charging because they have expenses. Just like the Pesach programs.
He was from the first to stop charging, I asked him when he started again (May 1), he said that as of now they are assuming that it should be ok to start.
If they see that in one month (June 1) that it is not going good, they will stop charging.
He also pointed out that those that were concerned, pulled the children out already.
My Point of View:These might have a better shot of getting regulatory approval.
I will be sending to camp (and paid for some of it), but in my case its different as its a special needs child.
If they have to cancel, parents will be pressured to accept a future credit or partial refund. Just like the Pesach programs.
/.02.
Crowd he is dealing with will guaranteed disputedWhat does the contract say?
These might have a better shot of getting regulatory approval.
What does the contract say?Not sure I can check on sunday, if it says anything.
Let's hope this doesn't happen because we could be looking at situations where camps would have to go bankrupt if they started preparing for camp and had to stop abruptly at the 11th hour.If they dont open They'll go bankrupt regardless if the decision is made in the 11th hour or 2 months ago. Sleep away camps are a full year business, they likely spend close to 1m on overhead and administration during the year before actual camp expenses.
If they dont open They'll go bankrupt regardless if the decision is made in the 11th hour or 2 months ago. Sleep away camps are a full year business, they likely spend close to 1m on overhead and administration during the year before actual camp expenses.Right but they may go bankrupt with all the parents money in the bank
Yup, this caused all the longtime Pesach programs with reputations to uphold to give full refunds when they had to cancel at the 11th hour.Some did
(https://www.myinstants.com/media/instants_images/boratnot.jpg)
They're charging because they have expenses. Just like the Pesach programs.Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?
If they have to cancel, parents will be pressured to accept a future credit or partial refund. Just like the Pesach programs.
/.02.
Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?LOL
LOLWhat's lol? Plenty did
Did any of the pessach programs offer refunds?Yes
What's lol? Plenty didVast majority did not give full refunds.
Vast majority did not give full refunds.Could be, but I know of plenty that did.
Could be, but I know of plenty that did.I know of a bunch that didn’t. I’m not judging but I thought that was representative of everyone. I’m glad to hear you and others went ahead and did the right thing at great personal cost, despite not necessarily needing to (I don’t know the Halacha).
I work in that industry, we gave full refunds and we lost a significant amount of money, I dont find anything about it funny.
I know of a bunch that didn’t. I’m not judging but I thought that was representative of everyone. I’m glad to hear you and others went ahead and did the right thing at great personal cost, despite not necessarily needing to (I don’t know the Halacha).We saw this after we had made our decision to give full refunds (not that we would have done differently), supposedly this is from rav Herchel schachter
from what I am hearing, it seems they have a plan to test everyone a few days before (assuming we have widely accessible rapid testing by then), and then lock the camp once everyone in side. Granted there is risk of an outbreak, and camps are ill equipped to deal with one, however the idea of sleepover camps seems more feasible and controllable than day camps. Additionally, assuming no immunocompromised kids, the camp population is extremely low risk, though you would have to make a judgement on Head Staff.I’m pretty sure we are already at the point, at least in the tri-state area, where anyone who wants a test can get a test. This is what the letter someone posted from the OJCA said, that all would be tested and then mass quarantined in camp.
from what I am hearing, it seems they have a plan to test everyone a few days before (assuming we have widely accessible rapid testing by then), and then lock the camp once everyone in side. Granted there is risk of an outbreak, and camps are ill equipped to deal with one, however the idea of sleepover camps seems more feasible and controllable than day camps. Additionally, assuming no immunocompromised kids, the camp population is extremely low risk, though you would have to make a judgement on Head Staff.In most camps I'm familiar with, there arent too many people over the age of 50 or even 40. There are also plenty of older people who already got the virus, we're left with a few people who won't be able to go this year, even if it's the director, they just won't be able to be on campus.
Summer camps? Watch Sullivan County officials cautiously discussing the possibility of summer camps being open this year. pic.twitter.com/MQPz3g4BZH
— Lakewood News Network (@LakewoodNewsNet) May 8, 2020
I’m pretty sure we are already at the point, at least in the tri-state area, where anyone who wants a test can get a test. This is what the letter someone posted from the OJCA said, that all would be tested and then mass quarantined in camp.
What exactly are they testing for, virus or antibodies? Will they accept children with antibodies? At what threshold?1) Many expenses will be higher this year
If there’s any sort of reopening in NY, say in 4-6 weeks from now, will they make an effort that kids get straight from home quarantine to camp quarantine without a quarantine lapse in between?
On a separate note, for camps still charging. Why are they charging the same amount if it’s obvious that the camp experience, if they end up opening, will be different this year (no trips, no guest entertainment) in ways that will save the camp money. Why aren’t they lowering their fees accordingly?
1) Many expenses will be higher this year
2) They're taking a huge risk by preparing to open, they deserve to be able to make more money for the risk.
Which specifically? And if you say PPE then to what extent will it actually be used?Many goods and services are more expensive and harder to get. They may need a larger medical team. They may also have less campers (state requirement or worried parents) so the cost per child is higher.
Who says I should pay for the risk. If they’re continuing to charge me then they’re taking the risk with my money, can I get a discount for that risk knowing I will lose whatever they charged if they go belly up?
Disclaimer: I’m not related to anyone in the camp business, nor do I have any children of overnight-camp age.
Many goods and services are more expensive and harder to get. They may need a larger medical team. They may also have less campers (state requirement or worried parents) so the cost per child is higher.The last part depends if they truly communicated with the parents with complete and accurate information.
They're a business and they can charge whatever they want, if you want justification (which they are in no way required to provide) it's because of increased risk.
How much does Kawasaki change this conversation?Hopefully we'll have a better answer to this question within the next couple of weeks.
Camps might just go out of state .
Camps might just go out of state .That would make it much safer.
How would they do that? Are there a bunch of vacant ready-to-use campgrounds just hanging out waiting for them? With access to food? Supporting infrastructure?yep I’ve done a lot of research on camp rentals and there are options out there. There are camping forums like ACA and others I’ve dealt with. If anyone wants details I’ll be glad to provide :) pm me
That would make it much safer.
Now that I pretty convinced camps won’t open. Is there a tread on above ground pools. One that is 4 ft deep but will be taken down at the end of the summer.anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure why
anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure why
Camp operators are definitely under the impression that they will be able to open
They may technically be allowed to open. The question is if it will be financially worthwhile for them to do so given the draconian limitations they are likely to be subject to, which will also ruin the camp experience for many campers.CMIIW, but most of their expenses are either already sunk (annual upkeep, taxes, etc.) or variable (if the camp is half full the food budget would be roughly cut in half) so they don't have much to lose by opening.
They may technically be allowed to open. The question is if it will be financially worthwhile for them to do so given the draconian limitations they are likely to be subject to, which will also ruin the camp experience for many campers.You have to assume that if a camp is opening and being locked down it won’t really have to be enforcing social distancing.
wont they save money by not having trips or having to bring in expensive night activitiesUnless they have to spend more to create activities to make up for those
Unless they have to spend more to create activities to make up for thoseAgreed, the cost of bringing entertainment to camp is actually more expensive than many of the trips.
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.Day camps (same as school) are obviously different situation then overnight camp. But kudos to them for being realistic and not getting hopes up for nothing.
anyone else agree? were opening full force now im not sure whyOf course the camp operators "need" to think that way until things are official one way or the other.
Where did you hear that one?
Now that I pretty convinced camps won’t open. Is there a tread on above ground pools. One that is 4 ft deep but will be taken down at the end of the summer.i bought this one for $367. about a month or so ago... its not 4' deep but close...
Connecticut's Governor Ned Lamont signed an executive order prohibiting resident camps (sleep away camps) but allowing Day camps to open not before June 22nd with Restrictions.This seems counter to science but may be responsive to daycare needs.
Connecticut's Governor Ned Lamont signed an executive order prohibiting resident camps (sleep away camps) but allowing Day camps to open not before June 22nd with Restrictions.
First the good news: The State of Connecticut, Office of Early Childhood (the agency that gives us our camp license) has released guidelines for summer camps to be able to open this summer. These include detailed safety procedures that the camp can put in place to operate safely.
The Even Better News: Our wonderful camp directors and staff are continuously working full steam ahead with all the camp preparations for this coming camp season to make it a truly great summer.
We are anticipating that, between now and the end of June, the OEC will have some updates and changes so we will give them a few weeks to edit and confirm the guidelines. Once they are done, we will send a follow up email to keep you informed and to provide you with any modified Medical forms and other information you need to make coming to camp this summer as smooth a process as possible.
Dear Parents, Shyichyu,
Yesterday, the Governor of CT signed a new Executive Order that outlines dates for reopening the state. In it, he announced that he is not allowing overnight camps to open.
This overrides the previous guidelines and permission presented by the commissioner of the OEC - the agency that licenses camps.
Along with many many other overnight camps in CT, we were fully anticipating to open prior to this order. As such, we have been moving full-steam ahead with cabin improvements, adding additional indoor space to better accommodate more stay-in-camp activities and more.
As our motto up until this point was the ruling of our Rebbeim that “tracht gut VET zein gut”, this is still our motto, and we are hopeful that this order will be reversed bezH.
We are currently reaching out to the office of the OEC, the Governor’s office, and the ACA.
We will send out any further updates as soon as they are available, and as always, our updates will be based only on verified information from the state or from the Commissioner of the OEC.
...
PS, Notably, the order does allow for summer school and day camps to open and is not in line with the CDC that overnight camps can operate safely this summer. It also ignores the American Camping Association recommendations which agree that overnight camps are safer than staying home or even going to day camps.
In light of all the above, we are hopeful that a new order will in time change the ruling to allow for overnight camps to open.
In the meantime, we encourage you to voice your objections to the governor’s office and let them know that if day camps and summer school can open safely, so can overnight camps, if not more so. Email-Governor-LamontEmail-Governor-Lamont.
I heard that Passaic day camps are cancelled.If so, certainly not officially. Or even unofficially, in some cases.
according to this article, cgi montreal is also not opening this yearThere is a counter argument that kids have been locked up and home for two months and let them go to camp and have a carefree few weeks. I wopld love if my daughter would be able to go (although since she had symptoms i'm not that concerned from a health standpoint)
https://collive.com/cgi-toronto-wont-be-opening-this-summer/
i am still not sure why with all the guidelines etc that camps would want to expose themselves nor do i understand parents that are comfortable sending. i am torn between both sides
so many things can go wrong and although its great to want to "open the country back up" i think overnight camp is a luxury albeit a very beneficial one so it should be treated as such and the overnight camps should really think of a way to make the parents feel better and comfortable by just saying outright that camp wont be the same if it does open and you can get a refund etc if you so desire... why wait till a week before? how will they expect payment etc on such short notice?
just think they should be a mentch about it.... like everyone else offering deferments etc... people lost jobs, might not have money etc...do the right thing and see what the parent body also thinks and then make a decision... its not only about money this year
according to this article, cgi montreal is also not opening this year
https://collive.com/cgi-toronto-wont-be-opening-this-summer/
CGI Montreal is governed by Ontario?no
There is a counter argument that kids have been locked up and home for two months and let them go to camp and have a carefree few weeks. I wopld love if my daughter would be able to go (although since she had symptoms i'm not that concerned from a health standpoint)agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,
I do agree camps should try to be understanding with parents who have been adversely affected financially but keep in mind it is likely the camps are also going to take a big hit
agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,None of those you listed are out of the kindness of their hearts. Landlords would much rather give a tenant a discount and he pays now that need to wait until they start allowing evictions again for example.
im speaking from limited experience but dont say the deposit is non refundable etc but say here is what we are thinking this is our expectations, we will decide by x date if we arent opening, etc.... something like that... camp is a month away
parents need to plan and decide too
agreed but at the end of day, from my experience, people in all fields are taking hits and hurting but they also are working with their tenants, landlords, banks, lenders, grocery stores, etc... so if its no fault of the parents, camp directors should be understanding and open/honest. just be straight forward without rif raf,,,They aren't communicating because they don't have what to communicate. They want to open and are trying to but have no concrete information
im speaking from limited experience but dont say the deposit is non refundable etc but say here is what we are thinking this is our expectations, we will decide by x date if we arent opening, etc.... something like that... camp is a month away
parents need to plan and decide too
None of those you listed are out of the kindness of their hearts. Landlords would much rather give a tenant a discount and he pays now that need to wait until they start allowing evictions again for example.they were examples and there are plenty more... everyone has been impacted to some extent.
Camp In Woodbourne Reportedly Receives Permit To Open This Summer1) its boys over 18 possible they got some sort of residence permit
As the Jewish community awaits with anticipation on a decision if Upstate NY summer camps will be permitted to open this coming summer, at least one camp has reportedly received the green light.
Camp Oraysa, located on Todd Road in Woodbourne, NY, sent an email to the parent body of the camp stating that they have been given a permit from the Health Department.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1862549/breaking-camp-in-woodbourne-reportedly-receives-permit-to-open-this-summer.html
1) its boys over 18 possible they got some sort of residence permitI just spoke with the camp director and he said that as of now its only for boys over 18.
2) if the state bans camp the permit is void
3) does anyone know if they actually got permits or just a promise that they will get a permit usually camps dont get permits till june
Breaking: Governor Cuomo announced summer school will not open for this summerDoes that mean no day camp?
Does that mean no day camp?He didn’t say for sure but he said he wouldn’t send his kids to day camp
He didn’t say for sure but he said he wouldn’t send his kids to day campHow old are his kids? :)
Breaking: Governor Cuomo announced summer school will not open for this summer
As for summer day camps, the governor said if the camps can prepare guidelines and the DOH believes they can do camps safely, there is the possibility they could happen.
However, the governor also said that until we have more information on the illness, he would not send his children to day camps.
How old are his kids? :)Ages 22-25
CGI montreal sent an email cancelling camp and issuing refunds
the following is an excerpt of said email which seemed interesting:
Although we are forced to cancel camp, we will refund 100% of your payment. We make this offer knowing that the financial impact on camp is challenging, as we have, and continue to incur huge expenditures anticipating camp’s opening and ongoing expenses.
Attached is your record of payment to date. We take the liberty to request your support to assist us with our current cost and losses. Please consider donating the deposit and perhaps some of your payments towards camp, for a donation receipt (US receipt option as well).
Smart. Get the goodwill of full refunds, avoid the costs of disputes, and maybe get some donations from those who can afford it.They should mention / give option to at minimum deduct credit card processing fees. People pay by credit card for personal gain / benefits (earn points AND avoid instant payment (cash / check / transfer).
They should mention / give option to at minimum deduct credit card processing fees. People pay by credit card for personal gain / benefits (earn points AND avoid instant payment (cash / check / transfer).
Now the company is potentially taking extra losses due to this (if processing 100% refund).
Smart. Get the goodwill of full refunds, avoid the costs of disputes, and maybe get some donations from those who can afford it.I wonder how much they will get back from parents? I would guess some but not an overwhelming amount
DeSantis: Florida summer camps can open without restrictions
https://wsvn.com/news/local/desantis-florida-summer-camps-can-open-without-restrictions/
I wonder how much they will get back from parents? I would guess some but not an overwhelming amount
Many camps are privately owned and would have a much harder time asking for donations
https://collive.com/camp-chayolei-to-open-for-summer/Pocono or upstate NY?
Pocono or upstate NY?This is PA
I understand that the consortium of upstate NY camps are applying lots of pressure to get their seasonal permits but haven't heard if any actually received
It's a large group and doesn't only include frum or chassidish camps
There are many that aren't as well
As Klal Yisroel is suffering from the effects and aftereffects of the virus, one thing extremely necessary, is to prepare to restart the Kol Torah. This summer we are hoping to be able to restart Yeshiva of Staten Island at its’ upstate location by the parameters set by health experts. Camp YSI has always been a yeshiva away from home where the learning continues at the highest levels, befitting the place where Rav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l would lead klal Yisroel during the summer months.I donated a few weeks ago
This past year Hagaon Harav Reuven Shlit”a, decided that it was time to rebuild the camp Bais Medrash. The old building was taken down immediately after the summer, and the work was moving right along until the virus started. After that, the work was interrupted, and equally important, we had to stop meeting people for financial help. Right now the shell is up, but the inside is empty and unusable. In order to get this Makom Torah to be able to get up and running as quickly as possible we need your help. Please help restart the Kol Torah in America by making this new building a reality.
https://go.thechesedfund.com/l1Ny5j/camp-yeshiva-of-staten-island
Dedication opportunities are available.
Please contact: (917)946-2974 campyeshivaofsi@gmail.com for dedication donations and/or monthly donation signup via ACH.
As per Govwhich governor? cuomo?
Day camp to open Jun 29
No word yet on sleepover
which governor? cuomo?
Yes. Just announced.link?
link?
As per GovCan every school open as a day camp?
Day camp to open Jun 29
No word yet on sleepover
Can every school open as a day camp?June 29?
Can every school open as a day camp?I dont see the difference
Can every school open as a day camp?Seems like camp may be like school anyways, possible restrictions like no swimming, no sports .... what’s else can they do? Learn
Seems like camp may be like school anyways, possible restrictions like no swimming, no sports .... what’s else can they do? Learnso is he reversing this, https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/amid-ongoing-covid-19-pandemic-governor-cuomo-announces-summer-school-will-be-conducted-through
YSP Morristown sent this to parents:So they are hoping to open but not in NJ?
Dear Parents,
For the last 39 years כן ירבו, YSP has been the premier summer program for Talmidim leaving eighth grade and entering Mesivta. Bez"H this year we will be entering its Shnas Ho'arboyim! Parents, staff, and last but not least, the Talmidim, are all anxiously awaiting to for an update.
As previously communicated, we were waiting to hear from the state of New Jersey regarding whether we will be allowed to open our grounds. This week, the governor announced that as of now, only day camps will be granted permission to open.
We are therefore exploring our options, and are looking into a variety of camp grounds in locations that will allow us to operate safely and still give the full YSP experience.
The transitional time between elementary school and Mesivta has traditionally been spent in YSP and has B”H made a lasting impact on so many Bochurim. We look forward to be able to continue the tradition, no matter where we will be located.
We understand that everyone needs to know details very soon. We hope to be able to update you very shortly with good news. At this time, we need to hear from you regarding this change and your current application in order to help with planning this new development. Please complete this short form ASAP.
So they are hoping to open but not in NJ?I was in contact with someone from the leadership there and from the way he put it they're looking into every possible option...
https://collive.com/gov-cuomo-says-decision-on-sleepaway-camps-to-come-next-week/ (https://collive.com/gov-cuomo-says-decision-on-sleepaway-camps-to-come-next-week/)I thought "next week" was last week.
I thought "next week" was last week.in general, people are very good at making firm and binding decisions to possibly discuss the matter at a later time
He meant next wednesdayYou think so? I'm not so sure even he knows what he meant...
A very large day camp in Passaic (Summer Playland) announced today that they will not be opening this summer.I thought NJ was allowing day camps... Too many regulations?
I thought NJ was allowing day camps...They are
They are+1
I thought NJ was allowing day camps... Too many regulations?These were the reasons she gave:
Posted today:And what will have changed between now and then
(https://i.imgur.com/aFZre1H.png)
And what will have changed between now and thenDon't ask me, I'm not the governer!
And what will have changed between now and thenNothing,
And what will have changed between now and thenIt's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.
It's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.My point exactly.
Cuomo said he is expecting more info on the Kawasaki virus this week and will make the decision on sleep away camps after he gets itThe standard response....
And what will have changed between now and thenInformation is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soon
And what will have changed between now and then
Information is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soon
It's his MO, it just buys time so he can stretch this out longer.
Information is constantly coming in. We already know Florida cases are reaching new highs, and unfortunately we'll probably have hospitalizations rising soonWhat do the two have to do with each other?
What do the two have to do with each other?He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new information
He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new informationHis timeline is nonsensical.
You realized you and I made opposite statements?I'm well aware.
He said Cuomo is just buying time, and I said there is a legitimate reason to wait for forthcoming new informationThere is no sense in anything Cuomo or Murphy are doing.
...Fake.
I think we need to ban Twitter screenshots. Too many fake ones going around.
Link to the Tweet or don't post IMHO.
NY Child care and Day camp Requirementsseems quite restrictive.
(This is not for sleep away camps)
seems quite restrictive.
seems quite restrictive.At least the kids don't need to wear masks like they will in NJ
At least the kids don't need to wear masks like they will in NJYou think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.
You think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.Exactly. It means that either the camps decide not to open, or decide to open knowing that the rules will not be followed
Exactly. It means that either the camps decide not to open, or decide to open knowing that the rules will not be followedWhich one will depend on location.
You think the kids will wear masks the whole day? LOL.My kids wear masks at school. Obviously not the preschoolers, but my 2nd and 4th graders do.
Which one will depend on location.And on the people in charge
And on the people in chargeMostly the same thing.
Mostly the same thing.Not necessarily though
Not necessarily thoughIn a minority of the time.
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openThis will be a disaster.
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openWow!!!
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
This will be a disaster.Anyone who expected them to open wasnt being realistic. There was a very good chance from a long time ago that this would be the case.....
Anyone who expected them to open wasnt being realistic. There was a very good chance from a long time ago that this would be the case.....There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into something
There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into somethingMaybe, but even if they let them open, there will be tons of regulations and camps most likely wont have time to prepare to meet their standards. So even if he lets them open, no guarantee that they will open. Day Camps in Flatbush still have not decided if they are opening or not and they got the green light already for more then a week.
Wow!!!
Doubtful
I wonder how many camps will open in PA and never go back to NY.
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't open
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
I really hope you're wrong.he is right
I really hope you're wrong.Believe me, me too
I really hope you're wrong.Schools are officially supposed to be shut in BP and they are still open so Im sure you will have underground camps if you are desperate....
Schools are officially supposed to be shut in BP and they are still open so Im sure you will have underground camps if you are desperate....
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openI have heard that the camp directors will be officially letting folks know this evening that overnight camps are closed.
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
I heard from a reliable source that Cuomo will be announcing today that sleepaway camps in NY can't openWhat happened to the announcement?
#teenslivesmatter
#parentslivesmatter
What happened to the announcement?Its bs. There was a vn going around that someone spoke to a head counselor of a camp and he said they won't be able to open... but its 100% uncertain at this point. Speak to agudah and romimu, they are very involved and are still fighting.
Was there a secret announcement to camps?There was no announcement... Cuomo didnt say anything in his Press Conference
Or where can we seen more?
Was there a secret announcement to camps?maybe it was in sign language
Or where can we seen more?
rumor i heard is that a bunch of the camps are scrambling to find grounds outside of NY to open this yearNow is very late in the game
YSP Morristown sent this to parents:Update: they're opening in PA
Dear Parents,
For the last 39 years כן ירבו, YSP has been the premier summer program for Talmidim leaving eighth grade and entering Mesivta. Bez"H this year we will be entering its Shnas Ho'arboyim! Parents, staff, and last but not least, the Talmidim, are all anxiously awaiting to for an update.
As previously communicated, we were waiting to hear from the state of New Jersey regarding whether we will be allowed to open our grounds. This week, the governor announced that as of now, only day camps will be granted permission to open.
We are therefore exploring our options, and are looking into a variety of camp grounds in locations that will allow us to operate safely and still give the full YSP experience.
The transitional time between elementary school and Mesivta has traditionally been spent in YSP and has B”H made a lasting impact on so many Bochurim. We look forward to be able to continue the tradition, no matter where we will be located.
We understand that everyone needs to know details very soon. We hope to be able to update you very shortly with good news. At this time, we need to hear from you regarding this change and your current application in order to help with planning this new development. Please complete this short form ASAP.
Was there a secret announcement to camps?More time for us to daven for a different outcome!
Or where can we see more?
Update: they're opening in PA
Camp Agudah is reportly renting somewhere in new Hampshire
Source? My brother who goes there. We’ll see if he’s right
Camps might just go out of state .
I heard from the son of a camp director that Cuomo told them Tuesday (I think morning) that he will announce within 48 hours that they can't open. Seemed pretty certain then but maybe something changed since. This director is already looking for private individuals to rent space in his camp over the summer.Cuomo didnt tell them anything by the meetings they were just assuming
But as I wrote on DDMS, this might just be a very elaborate color-war breakout...
Another day camp conversion.
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....thats when the cuomos guys walked out of the meeting... when they started arguing about this
thats when the cuomos guys walked out of the meeting... when they started arguing about thisTotally nuts! Let's remember all this when it comes time to vote.
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....Hence,
Cuomo (all of them)
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....Welcome indeed.
Totally nuts! Let's remember all this when it comes time to vote.They don't need your vote.
They don't need your vote.They need the money that all the Jewish people donate to Cuomo year after year and they continue to do even after rent control. But at this point all the politicians know that no matter what they do the money will still pour in, so they aren’t really worried about alienating anyone.
if everyone are so sure the decision has been made why isn't cuomo announcing it yet?
It makes no sense to allow day camps where kids are going home and coming in contact with others and not allow sleep away camps where everyone is basically in a bubble, but welcome to freaken New York....This has been the story for almost every single COVID related regulation in NY & NJ since the beginning.
if everyone are so sure the decision has been made why isn't cuomo announcing it yet?Classic PR move is to announce bad news on Fridays. Less news coverage/backlash.
He's waiting till just before candle lighting tomorrow.
*BREAKING:* Tonight at 6:30pm all kids with BIKES AND SCOOTERS will gather in front of CONTINENTAL HALL, the kids will make a left on Bedford Ave. BLOCKING TRAFFIC till Taylor, they will make a right on Taylor and a right on Lee Avenue till Flushing Avenue.
Please bring along signs
*"KID LIVES MATTER"*
I this true? Received from someone in Williamsburg.I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.
(Not directly related to camp, but I didn't know where else to post it...)
I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.Protests don’t help with Cuomo. If he publicly caves then it bruises his ego. So he’s likely to give in to public pressure then any behind the scenes work
There’s no reason they shouldn’t be opened. Only explanation is that this crazy person in Albany on a power trip didn’t want to look like he was bullied into something
Protests don’t help with Cuomo. If he publicly caves then it bruises his ego. So he’s likely to give in to public pressure then any behind the scenes workwell which one is it? he will cave or wont ? :o
well which one is it? he will cave or wont ? :oI’m just saying that protests aren’t gonna help. He won’t cave publicly, there is more of a chance they will open now then there would be if 10k people showed up to protest about it.
They need the money that all the Jewish people donate to Cuomo year after year and they continue to do even after rent control. But at this point all the politicians know that no matter what they do the money will still pour in, so they aren’t really worried about alienating anyone.Seems to be pure politics at this point.
I'm surprised there aren't protest for camps.Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.They're protesting for parks, not for camps.
lets see the huge media coverage...
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.I love it.
lets see the huge media coverage...
They're protesting for parks, not for camps.That depends which heimishe twitter account you check.
Videos circulating of the kids protesting. In willi.2 dozen kids isn't as media grabbing as 10k+
lets see the huge media coverage...
That depends which heimishe twitter account you check.Let's be honest, why wouldn't chassidishe camps open? Their schools have been open for close to 2 months despite the EO.
That there are so many not wearing helmets does not help the cause.
Let's be honest, why wouldn't chassidishe camps open? Their schools have been open for close to 2 months despite the EO.Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.
Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.Good point. I stand corrected.
Because the local PD isn't enforcing the EO. With the problems that the Frum camps face every regular summer - you can only imagine how quickly the authorities will be called upstate.Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.
Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.How difficult?
How difficult?So they need to stake it out and know when to expect buses, as well as keep watch of all the exits all day long to see if cars leave. They also need to track all the cars that go in and out and try to count kids. Most camps also have a day camp on campus, so there will be kids leaving in the evening, again they would need to be counting kids.
Wait outside on day 1 when a bunch of full busses roll in the front gate (don’t need a warrant to stop and enter the busses right outside), then don’t see the busses leave that night (or leave but are all empty).
What about all those huge duffel bags?They come in on a truck and unload out of view of the road. I'm not saying it's impossible, but they'd have very difficult time staking out hundreds of camps that could potentially be open and they don't know which day they're opening.
They come in on a truck and unload out of view of the road. I'm not saying it's impossible, but they'd have very difficult time staking out hundreds of camps that could potentially be open and they don't know which day they're opening.I 100% hear what you're saying, but if I was a camp director I still wouldn't want to risk it.
I 100% hear what you're saying, but if I was a camp director I still wouldn't want to risk it.-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.
Without a warrant, they'd have a very difficult time finding evidence that it's a sleepaway camp and not day camp.-1
-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.
-1All of this can easily be excused as day camp. I heard camps are planning on having full days including night activities Sunday-Friday.
Wouldn't there be dozens (or hundreds) of delivery trucks, repairmen, etc over the summer who would all enter camp and see exactly what's going on? And not to mention neighbors and people from the surrounding towns being on high alert- they'll know in a second.
It'll be all over social media in no time, in the press shortly thereafter (news-hungry reporters at the camp entrance eager for a juicy story), and on a desk in whatever police dept enforces this stuff not too long after. And then can't the police just get a warrant?
I think it's highly unlikely (practically impossible) that any camp can stay under the radar for more than a few days with hundreds of kids.
All of this can easily be excused as day camp. I heard camps are planning on having full days including night activities Sunday-Friday.Depending on the neighbors, it can be very risky
-1 not sure which camp you went to. But most summers, camps have the local PD show up for loud noise at night, cars parked on the road etc... If the governor clearly states that sleep away camps can't open. You dont need the FBI, you have neighbors that will gladly call and report you. Most of them dont want you there on a regular year.This seems to be why they don't have permission to open. Big pressure from the locals.
All of this can easily be excused as day camp.-1. When a non-Jewish employee posts on Facebook that it's running as a sleepaway camp, or when the electrician or plumber or building inspector sees a bunkhouse full of kids' stuff, or when the non-Jews in town talk about how they never see kids leaving the campus after night activities end, or when the UPS guy hears an announcement on the PA about early wakeup tmrw, or when the angry-at-the-system cousin rants on social media about his relatives in sleepaway camp, or when the neighbor's surveillance cameras capture the staff families driving up with a month's worth of stuff tied down on top of their Oddeysey.... it's gonna be pretty clear what's going on.
Some boys camps (older boys) operate as TR (temporary residence) and are planning to open undisturbed.Any idea which camps?
hope it'll work for them.
PS. I have no clue whatsoever the legal terms, so don't ask me.
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/06/camp-machane-yehuda-director-theres-still-hope-for-ny-camps.htmlthis article doesn't add anything
this article doesn't add anything
we all believe what he believes
we all hope for what he hopes
and reality is still the same
the rumors aren't confirmed while I'm not saying chances of opening are highthat confirms the rumor, but doesn't make it into a fact
The hire/fire part is the easiest. All staff is ready to work, nobody has anything else.
even if he will allow camps to open, they need time to prepare you cant [its vary hard to] hire/fire the last minute
even if he will allow camps to open, they need time to prepare you cant [its vary hard to] hire/fire the last minuteCamps have mostly been hoping and preparing for the best and also preparing for the worst. Most are ready to open if they are able
(https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/75690E8A-B1BA-4912-BAA1-2124A3552EC1.png)Not simple. Daycamps have already paid non-refundable deposits for many parks, trips etc.
Not simple. Daycamps have already paid non-refundable deposits for many parks, trips etc.
Okay, why does that change anything? Do you really think that the BD did not think of that possibility?Don't know if they did, but would they be required to lose that money more than the parents?
Don't know if they did, but would they be required to lose that money more than the parents?
News: New York health officials will block summer sleep away camps this year, as per Health Commissioner Howard Zucker.
— Nick Reisman (@NickReisman) June 12, 2020
1271547389317468169[/tweet]]mazel tov it's official[/URL](http://[tweet)
NEW: sleepaway camps canceled for 2020 in New York. @NYGovCuomo and his Health Dept made the decision today. #NBC4NY pic.twitter.com/nlBqoipRwv
— Andrew Siff (@andrewsiff4NY) June 12, 2020
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sleepaway-camps-wont-open-in-new-york-this-summer/2459016/
Guess there goes that
All is not lost yet.Lol, so much for that.
Is it close enough to candle lighting?News: New York health officials will block summer sleep away camps this year, as per Health Commissioner Howard Zucker.
— Nick Reisman (@NickReisman) June 12, 2020
Lol, so much for that.They can still try legal options. No idea if they would hold water.
They can still try legal options. No idea if they would hold water.GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.
GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...
But maybe one of these times people will realize the true cost of NY living.
GL with that. State can do what they want. Camp isn't in the 1A and even if it was, it's murky these days.FTFY
But maybe one of these times people will realize the true cost of Democrat living.
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?the will first try to setup the kids in Albany
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?
Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...What would Georgia be like had that been the case?
Wish Ellis Island was off the coast of Savanna, Georgia...Then GA would be a blue state today.
How do you know the politics is involvedWhat does he gain politically?
1 decisions given out right before weekend
2 Cuomo sends DOH commissioner Howard Zucker to announce the ban
FTFYWatch for a mass exodus from NY and CA.
Will there now be a rush to set up accommodations in Pennsylvania/Vermont?Some camps have already set up in PA.
For the agudah to release such a statement...Wow!
https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-06-12_overnight_camps_statement.htmThanks - Thats a statement not an order
Seems pretty black and white to me
Thanks - Thats a statement not an orderWhat order are you referring too?
For the agudah to release such a statement...https://agudah.org/summer-camps-shuttered-for-2020-statement-by-agudath-israel/
https://agudah.org/summer-camps-shuttered-for-2020-statement-by-agudath-israel/what might "whatever remaining options may be available to them" be?
If they believe that to be the case why aren't they involved in the lawsuits against discrimination?To address this point only, this may be because those suits were all doomed to failure. That may have changed recently.
what might "whatever remaining options may be available to them" be?It’s been the strategy of the Jews in NY forever when it came to dealing with the NYS government. Give lots of money and play nice and hopefully we get something in return. I guess the agudah has finally had enough playing nice which shows how ridiculous they think the governor is being.
Also what took them till now to finally publicly say something about the sickening double standard the dictators have been applying?
They reference the government using regulations as a sword against religion. Why haven't they spoken up about that sooner? If they believe that to be the case why aren't they involved in the lawsuits against discrimination?
$$$. Lunch programs.... their making a killing now during corona. That's why they didn't complain
Also what took them till now to finally publicly say something about the sickening double standard the dictators have been applying?
It’s been the strategy of the Jews in NY forever when it came to dealing with the NYS government. Give lots of money and play nice and hopefully we get something in return. I guess the agudah has finally had enough playing nice which shows how ridiculous they think the governor is being.Maybe if Satmer takes the same road a Agudah we can flip this state red.
$$$. Lunch programs.... their making a killing now during corona. That's why they didn't complainThe agudah making a killing during corona? What even...
The agudah making a killing during corona? What even...#facts
The agudah making a killing during corona? What even...Not necessarily that specific organization, but their counterparts. Yes frum schools are making a killing now on various government programs and thats why they weren't making a stink. You don't bite the hand that feeds u....
#factsThat they made a killing?
That they made a killing?No.
Not necessarily that specific organization, but their counterparts. Yes frum schools are making a killing now on various government programs and thats why they weren't making a stink. You don't bite the hand that feeds u....I was referring to the agudah specifically. And you’re way overrating how much money these schools are making
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
I was referring to the agudah specifically. And you’re way overrating how much money these schools are makingSure
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.You bring up a fair point but there are an awful lot of people who are desperate for their children to have a nice normal summer with friends in a sleep away environment.
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.I cant think about those that live in Williamsburg apartments, those that live in the outskirts okay it will pass but in the city, I'm glad i'm not there and I feel bad for them
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
So schools, shuls, funerals and weddings are all negotiable to Agudah, but summer camp is the red line? I understand that it's important but it affects a much smaller portion of the population and alternatives are conceivable.all those things were early on and it was understandable why they were shut. Those are all up and running now except school because there was no point. Most feel like we have COVID under control in NY and camp’s shouldn’t be a problem so why are they shutting?
Do they realize that for every person decimated that there isn't camp, there are 5 who are relieved that they need not go another 10k in debt during this financial crisis.
If the seminaries shut it will be a win win situation.win for who?
Isn’t Satmar going up tomorrow or was that a rumor?I also got that text, would be into watch that play out
Isn’t Satmar going up tomorrow or was that a rumor?Going up where?
For the parents that don't want to send but send anyway because of peer pressure? So for these sorry people that can't do what they feel is right because of what others do you are happy if everyone else loses out?
win for who?How many seminary age children have you been through or are you just 23 yourself?
For the seminaries? definitely not!
For the parents that want to send? also not
For the girls that are looking forward to go? also not
For the parents that don't want to send but send anyway because of peer pressure? So for these sorry people that can't do what they feel is right because of what others do you are happy if everyone else loses out?
Do you know anyone who went to Seminary in the US, or skipped altogether, and still got married? I can make a list.
For those parents who are forced to send their daughter to seminary because the world decided that if the girl didn't go, there must be something wrong with her and no one will date her.
Do you know anyone who went to Seminary in the US, or skipped altogether, and still got married? I can make a list.My wife attended Sem in the US, as did all of my sisters and sisters-in-law. For some reason my father preferred it ;). All married :)
Could be it was discussed already I didn't see.No
Just wondering is sleep away camp mostly a Jewish thing?
NoI thought most camps are jewish even if not frum and the rest are religious or boy scouts.
I thought most camps are jewish even if not frum and the rest are religious or boy scouts."Did you know that U.S. summer camps were recently estimated to be a $15 billion industry nationwide? And that figure doesn’t even take into account just how incredible they’ve become within the Millennial age."
"Did you know that U.S. summer camps were recently estimated to be a $15 billion industry nationwide? And that figure doesn’t even take into account just how incredible they’ve become within the Millennial age."what did come into play with Cuomo was that most of the non Jewish and non frum camps had already cancelled by the time Cuomo made the decision so in essence he was really fighting with only the frum camps
No
what did come into play with Cuomo was that most of the non Jewish and non frum camps had already cancelled by the time Cuomo made the decision so in essence he was really fighting with only the frum campsSo the others were using common sense?
So the others were using common sense?
They don't see counting education through the summer a critical necessity. And yes we think camp is a part of education system.I can see the education part being a major issue.
Having kids definitely teenagers home all summer is a major problem.
So the others were using common sense?Camp is an integral piece of development for lots of kids.
Camp is an integral piece of development for lots of kids.So is school, sports and many other things that were cancelled.
So is school, sports and many other things that were cancelled.School can be somewhat replaced by zoom, lots of people I know who gained so much from their summers in camp wouldn’t be able to replace it with a couple zoom sessions a day.
School can be somewhat replaced by zoom, lots of people I know who gained so much from their summers in camp wouldn’t be able to replace it with a couple zoom sessions a day.I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.
I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.But they had plans which were prepared and looked over by lots of different people which the governor and his team didn’t even bother to look at. That’s where all of this anger stems from.
Catholic camps are an integral part of their teachings. Just like when Churches were closed they might not agree but understand why.
I am not disagreeing. There are many things that can't be replaced.when schools closed for a month or three in march, we shut them ahead of gov guidance, for good reason.
Catholic camps are an integral part of their teachings. Just like when Churches were closed they might not agree but understand why.
they had plans which were prepared and looked over by lots of different people which the governor and his team didn’t even bother to look at. That’s where all of this anger stems from.this mayor/governor are just enjoying flexing authoritarian muscle. kinda like trump and the protests
Most camp announcements I've seen have included some kind of plan for prevention of infections. What I haven't seen is any comprehensive plan for how infections will be handled if they do occur during camp. Has anyone seen any plan published from any of the overnight camps, especially the new ones which have popped up to fill the void?I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.
Most camp announcements I've seen have included some kind of plan for prevention of infections. What I haven't seen is any comprehensive plan for how infections will be handled if they do occur during camp. Has anyone seen any plan published from any of the overnight camps, especially the new ones which have popped up to fill the void?Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?
I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.
Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?
I'm sure they have one and anyway what are the chances of an in camp outbreak with the iron clad rules they have?
Same study looked at infection pairs from a national database to see who was infecting who.
— Alasdair Munro (@apsmunro) June 15, 2020
Almost all transmission adult to adult. Minimal child to adult or child to child.
6/9 pic.twitter.com/Ew0ysZe1dD
I have heard that Camp Agudah Midwest (South Haven MI) is only allowing campers that live within a 24 hour drive, in case of a COVID-19 breakout.Who exactly does the exclude?
Who exactly does the exclude?
Anyone besides for International campers?
Is it necessary to publicly publish these plans?The chances that it happens in an individual camp are quite low, the chances that it happens in at least 1 or frum camps nationwide is almost guaranteed.
I'm sure they have one and anyway what are the chances of an in camp outbreak with the iron clad rules they have?
I would say this is probably because people are most likely to live with someone in their age group, a 55 y/o is most likely to live with a 55 y/o. If you notice, a 55 y/o is more likely to transmit to or from a 25 y/o than to or from a 40 y/o. The most likely reason is because a 55 y/o is more likely to have a 25 y/o child living with them or visiting often than a 40 y/o. From what I see, all this chart shows (at least about adults) is who is most likely to live with whom.Same study looked at infection pairs from a national database to see who was infecting who.
— Alasdair Munro (@apsmunro) June 15, 2020
Almost all transmission adult to adult. Minimal child to adult or child to child.
6/9 pic.twitter.com/Ew0ysZe1dD
The chances that it happens in an individual camp are quite low, the chances that it happens in at least 1 or frum camps nationwide is almost guaranteed. I would say this is probably because people are most likely to live with someone in their age group, a 55 y/o is most likely to live with a 55 y/o. If you notice, a 55 y/o is more likely to transmit to or from a 25 y/o than to or from a 40 y/o. The most likely reason is because a 55 y/o is more likely to have a 25 y/o child living with them or visiting often than a 40 y/o. From what I see, all this chart shows (at least about adults) is who is most likely to live with whom.If a 55 yr old most likely lives with another 55 yr old and 22 with 22 then would we have a shidduch crisis?
B) a published emergency response plan is absolutely necessary. As a parent, why would you just assume camp has a plan? And why wouldn't you want to know what it is, in case it involves you having to pick up your kid halfway across the country?
having an emergency response plan is a necessity. having one publicly available for the curios anonymous people on the internet is not. I assume if a parent with valid concerns contacts them they would be glad to provide more informationWell said. If it was my job to professionally design plans I would have zero interest in the internet peanut gallery picking it apart. Even if it was one as lovely as DDF
Well said. If it was my job to professionally design plans I would have zero interest in the internet peanut gallery picking it apart. Even if it was one as lovely as DDF
having an emergency response plan is a necessity. having one publicly available for the curios anonymous people on the internet is not. I assume if a parent with valid concerns contacts them they would be glad to provide more information
By the same premise, if I was running a camp I wouldn't want to post my learning curriculum, my hashkafos, or my activities, because maybe people will find fault with them.Most camps don't post detailed descriptions of their heashkafos and curriculum... just enough to make it sound fun and exciting. These plans are different as you have many parents thinking emotionally instead of logically and seeing such a plan would just cause them to panic.
Frankly, this aren't normal times and we're not talking about posting active shooter response scenarios on the off chance a camp c"v is attacked. We're in the midst of a pandemic that no one quite understands, and every single camp should be proactive in letting parents know what the parents can expect from the camp and what the camp expects of the parents in case of an outbreak. If the camp isn't communicating that to the parents on their own, every single parent should be calling the camp office and finding out before paying the camp a penny.
From the camps' perspective, it seems inefficient to explain the plan 200-1000 times over the phone to individual parents. I'd also be concerned if parents aren't reaching out to me as a camp administrator, because it shows a lack of awareness (or caring) for the sensitive realities. There's a good chance I'll need their cooperation if kids need to be sent home or picked up earlier than planned, and parents who aren't prepared are liabilities.
you may not have noticed but frankly many parents don't care.
Seems like there's a disconnect here with people who don't live in NYC area. Most people had, my whole family had, and I'm sending my kids to camp no issue and so are all my neighbors.
Yea... I don't understand this at all. Considering all we don't know about the long term impact of this virus, how can parents not care?
There definitely seems to be a disconnect, but I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other. I didn't say don't send the kids to camp. Why wouldn't you want to know how the camp would react to a potential outbreak?
There definitely seems to be a disconnect, but I'm not understanding what one has to do with the other. I didn't say don't send the kids to camp. Why wouldn't you want to know how the camp would react to a potential outbreak?Outbreak? Its really not a big deal for kids and considering they've been home for last 3 months its a risk plenty of parents are willing to take.
They sure do care. They care enough to give their kids the opportunity to go to camp and enjoy themselves after 3-4 months of misery
Because what's the likelihood of an outbreak? Just as much as a flu outbreak or some other virus and nobody ever wanted to know the plan for how to react to that.
Don't kid yourself but if there won't be an outbreak in day camp there won't all of a sudden be one in camp.
Outbreak? Its really not a big deal for kids and considering they've been home for last 3 months its a risk plenty of parents are willing to take.
How do we know that camps have not sent out their plan/protocol to their registered campers?
We don't. I said I haven't seen it and asked if anyone had. All I'm getting is crickets and arguments about why they either don't need to have one, or why no one should know about them.I don't have kids enrolled in sleepaway camp, but it's possible that they are still clarifying regulations and recommendations and will send something out soon. idk
"3-4 months of misery" and we still have comparisons to "a flu outbreak or some other virus?"
I don't disagree about the likelihood of a day camp outbreak, but I fail to see how one exempts the other. Also, a day camp is local, so outbreak response is fairly simple. Overnight camps are a little more complex than that.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.LOL
"3-4 months of misery" and we still have comparisons to "a flu outbreak or some other virus?"
I don't disagree about the likelihood of a day camp outbreak, but I fail to see how one exempts the other. Also, a day camp is local, so outbreak response is fairly simple. Overnight camps are a little more complex than that.
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
Glad to hear your kids had a grand time.
Mine were b"h not miserable because we were able to afford leaving the city for the last 2 months, however I know loads of kids who live in cramped quarters and yes it is/was very difficult for them and their parents. They were very very much looking forward to getting a break by going to camp.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.
Again, I understand the reasoning behind sending. I don't understand the reasoning for not asking for outbreak contingencies.
As an aside, the camp that was supposed to only be for kids from CH is now having kids come from PA, NJ, DE, MD, and FL (possibly more, those are just what I know). So that 70% is nowhere close to 70% anymore. You have kids from many communities, and kids flying in. Not saying that will change anything for most parents, but the facts are different than what many believe.
My son was BH accepted today for sleep away camp. I sincerely hope this will give a headstart in healing the damage done over the past 3 months.In which state is the camp your child is going to?
I honestly don't see a reason for fear at an overnight camp. Those that come from communities that have over 70% exposure to the virus, are most likely immune. The others will either not get it from the immune bunch, or will be easily contained.
In which state is the camp your child is going to?
Y'all got to check out this Allan Shernan song... worst doomsday scenario with Corona can not possibly be worse than this.
I'm not comparing anything to flu or other virus, just saying the likelihood of this breaking out is the same or similar to likelihood of something else breaking out. I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak just the same even without comparing it at all to coronavirus.
Uh, what? How'd you get that from what I wrote?
Great. Again, nothing to do with anything.
This is just patently false. I can't believe that anyone still believes this at this point in the game. There is absolutely no data anywhere that suggests that this is even remotely true.
From the quotes on 3-4 months of misery. Sorry of I misunderstood.
It does as you are arguing against having camp. Just telling you why so many are desperate to send.
Which part is false??? That I'd be concerned about a flu outbreak? I would be. That flu or other virus has the same likelihood of breaking out as Corona? Well, what data do you have to back up stating otherwise?
Dear Parents,
Over the past 24 hours we have had some inquires about a day camp option. We have a very devoted staff that feel extremely motivated to make it happen and be able to give the kids a chance to spend most of their week in Gan Yisroel.
This is a brand new idea for us and we need to know how many parents would be interested in this option. The day would start at 10:00am and end at 9:00pm Sunday through Thursday and half day on Friday giving the boys a true full day of camp. We would serve the boys 3 meals a day plus snack. Camp would start on July 6 and run through August 26. It would be for boys in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th grade.The boys would have a full program of learning classes, variety of sports and leagues, swimming, boating, biking, arts and crafts, cook outs even experience a Gan Yisroel color war and lots of in house entertainment. We are looking into offering bus transportation from 3 or 4 central locations in the Catskill area.
If there are any boys that may have non immediate family that live upstate for the summer perhaps they can stay with them. We are working feverishly on all the details of how to make a smooth transition from overnight camp to day camp. It really depends on how many families are interested in order to make it work. Again we stress how we will need a few days to see how many people get back to us and confirm that they are indeed interested and than we can open registration for Gan Yisroel day camp.
If you are interested in this please email us at: cginewyork@gmail.com
Rabbi Yossie Futerfas
The quotes were around your words, illustrating that anyone who has just gone through 3-4 months of misery should know better than to compare this to the flu or some other virus.
I'm not arguing against having camp. Please show me what I wrote that led you to believe that. I clearly stated I understand why camps are opening and why parents are ok with the risks of sending them. I do not understand the possibility of camps lacking clear plans in case of an outbreak, nor the parents' apparent willingness to ignore the lack of plans.
I don't know why you'd be concerned with a flu outbreak in the middle of the summer. I'm not saying you aren't concerned, but I don't know why you would be. What's patently false is that a Covid outbreak is as likely as the flu in the summer or "some other virus." As for data, go to Google and search "pandemic." You may get a few hits.
Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
Do you have an actual source for this? Not a senior Hatzalah member, a real medical source. I’m genuinely curious where you got this from, the concept that exposure = immune
Its called "Herd Immunity" when most of the herd had the disease the chances of others contracting it is very low. Look it up.
Exposure is meaningless.Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
Exposure is meaningless.
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
I don't think that even that is enough. If the virus doesn't enter the persons body, they won't have antibodies/immunity. It doesn't matter how many people they were exposed to.Exposure to someone contagious, meaning they got it and have antibodies.
Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?Love how we are now defining experts
Love how we are now defining experts
Love how we are now defining experts
Ain domeh shmiah lere'iyah, and I saw that the oilam cancelled Covid. Null and void. And if you haven't had it yet, you're covered by (I) herd (there's) immunity, which is kinda like botul b'shishim, but for rational thoughts and facts.You missed the context, he didn't claim he's an expert. He questioned whether someone else is.
You missed the context, he didn't claim he's an expert. He questioned whether someone else is.
Its called "Herd Immunity" when most of the herd had the disease the chances of others contracting it is very low. Look it up.Right, exposure to someone with a virus means you’re immune because of herd immunity, I don’t even have to look it up. You should change your handle to DrTuvia.
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.And your source has showed you that anybody who was exposed to someone who had a virus and didn’t get it that time can’t get it from someone else with the virus? Got it. Thanks for your medical source.
If you'd rather wait for a manufactured vaccine, talk to me no sooner than Trumps 2nd year of his 2nd term.
Coming from an expert living in a community in which what percentage experienced symptoms?My bad, I didn’t realize people who live in CH are the true experts, I’ve been listening to these idiot doctors all along. Forgot they “don’t know anything”. Because Cuomo and the media.
My bad, I didn’t realize people who live in CH are the true experts, I’ve been listening to these idiot doctors all along. Forgot they “don’t know anything”. Because Cuomo and the media.
Ain domeh shmiah lere'iyah, and I saw that the oilam cancelled Covid. Null and void. And if you haven't had it yet, you're covered by (I) herd (there's) immunity, which is kinda like botul b'shishim, but for rational thoughts and facts.
Exposure is meaningless.some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their life
The only thing that matters is exposure to someone contagious, and the vast majority of people with COVID-19 are not contagious.
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.a very rational thought and fact indeed
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their lifeHuh? It seems you’re doing something that’s fairly common around these parts these days and answering a question that wasn’t asked while leaving unanswered a question that was
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their life
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
some people are shouting scientific arguments till they are blue in the face and some people are looking at the facts on the ground that many of our communities have opened weeks ago and there has not been a spike in cases b"h and are moving on with their lifeLet’s do it your way. There are many countries around the world that have opened up far earlier and to a greater extent than NY has without having seen a significant spike in cases since b”h. Does that translate into everyone who was exposed is immune because you have eyes?
hencea very rational thought and fact indeed
The vulnerable people who were smart enough to self isolate early on & therfore didn't get it yet are still self isolating.Yes but they are indeed lowering their guard more now. I know of quite a few who are close to attending indoor Shul and are allowing people in their households to mingle with others. People who locked up early and did not get the virus.
The vulnerable people who were smart enough to self isolate early on & therfore didn't get it yet are still self isolating.
That is a rather condescending comment
I really thought frum Jews were smarter than this.
That is a rather condescending comment
Why do you think that anyone who differs from your worldview lacks in his smartness? Maybe if tens of thousands of people are acting a certain way and you disagree maybe you are not smarter than all of them?
Really? This is the Jewish way of thinking? The masses are doing it a certain way so they must be right?referring to hundreds of thousands of frum Jews as "I thought they were smarter than that" is condescending.
You yourself said what you are perceiving as reality isn't matching the science, so we should ignore the science. If that's considered a "worldview" and disagreeing with anyone who thinks that way is condescending, I'll gladly wear that hat.
referring to hundreds of thousands of frum Jews as "I thought they were smarter than that" is condescending.
thankfully you are not the arbiter of Jewish thinking so please represent your opinions as your way of thinking and don't make representations as to what the Jewish way of thinking is
IMO, this is the absolute biggest misconception with Covid. When you say vulnerable, you mean those with the highest risk of death. While death is the worst case scenario, we have no clue how this will impact those who survive, both short-term and long-term. To deem anyone as "safe" to get Covid is a huge fallacy which leads to the cavalier attitudes we're seeing in our communities and beyond.This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.
This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.
Once again, this has been reduced to binary options. There are a plethora of options between hiding in a cave and business as usual.Or you can argue that theoretical residual effects are not something to worry about.
This is fear of the unknown. There are many unknowns in life, we can't put the world on hold every time there is an unknown possible danger. Anyone who is really worried about it to the point of putting the world on hold for a year or two is probably best off moving to a deserted cave far from civilization.+1000000000000
IMO, this is the absolute biggest misconception with Covid. When you say vulnerable, you mean those with the highest risk of death. While death is the worst case scenario, we have no clue how this will impact those who survive, both short-term and long-term. To deem anyone as "safe" to get Covid is a huge fallacy which leads to the cavalier attitudes we're seeing in our communities and beyond.I don't dispute that and take particular care in avoiding the virus even though I am the diametric opposite of vulnerable. My point merely was we aren't seeing spike in NY/NJ & EU hospitalizations because those who are likely to end up in the hospital either already did or are still being careful.
I don't dispute that and take particular care in avoiding the virus even though I am the diametric opposite of vulnerable. My point merely was we aren't seeing spike in NY/NJ & EU hospitalizations because those who are likely to end up in the hospital either already did or are still being careful.I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.
Those advocating for business as usual are all governed by an impulsive reckless decision making process which doesn't take facts into the equation at all, and simply cede to their primal temptations. Unfortunately they outnumber us, so one of them is sitting in the Oval Office. What's remarkable is that they utterly forgot how wrong they were in February.
+1000000000000
Add to that being a Yid with emunah and bitachon.
I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.No, you're the one clinging to every possible argument to justify a conclusion you reached out of laziness in wearing a mask.
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I don't trust anybody blindly.
A common argument used to end intelligent debate. We know he's in control, we don't know if he wants more people to die or not, and we are obligated to use every resource he gave us to prepare ourselves appropriately.
There is a bashefer of the velt!!!
I think you're conflating government mandated restrictions and allowing people to decide how careful they want to be.
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?
No, you're the one clinging to every possible argument to justify a conclusion you reached out of laziness in wearing a mask.Which conclusion?
I do not follow my doctors blindly. I do my research before and after talking to the doctor, ask the relevant questions based on my findings, and go with what the medical consensus is. Occasionally, when I'm conflicted, I take the advice of the Rebbe and consult a rofeh yedid. I don't negotiate with the doctor, because he has no power to make decisions for me. I don't ignore a doctor unless I feel I've received better medical guidance that tells me to proceed in a different direction.You go to the doctor with a sore throat. He gives you antibiotics to take. You are going to research what he prescribed?
You go to the doctor with a sore throat. He gives you antibiotics to take. You are going to research what he prescribed?
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.
I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.
I've read articles from doctors about the fine line in that they appreciate an educated patient but not one who questions them based on webMD.Lol this. I find it helpful when a patient has read up on his/her condition and is knowledgable about it. It makes my life easier, and shows that they care. But yes, the self-diagnosing, sometimes contrarian patients educated by Dr. Google can be frustrating at times.
Without reading any such articles, I can tell you that the worst thing is for doctors to have to deal with patients arguing with them based on information they found with the help of Google. And they are for the most part right.
Based on the responses I got, I guess I didn't formulate my question properly, as people seem to have latched on to the word "blindly" in their responses.
So let's use a real-life scenario and give multiple choices for answers, so we can avoid the free-form answers.
Your 9 year old daughter complains of a headache and sore throat and has fever. You take her to the doctor who does a quick Step test that shows positive. The doctor prescribes antibiotics. Luckily, this is a practice that takes two swabs for a strep test, and then also put one test for an overnight. The next morning you call (waiting for a call from the MD office might take longer, so you call first thing in the morning) to find out that the overnight test came back negative.
Do you:
A. Fill the prescription immediately and start your daughter on antibiotics.
B. Postpone filling the prescription and call the next morning for the overnight results, and let your kid's body fight off whatever they might have.
C. Ask the doctor upon receiving the prescription if their are any alternatives that don't involve antibiotics.
D. Do as in A, and upon getting a call back from the office late in the next afternoon that the overnight came back negative, ask the Dr if you should continue on antibiotics, because even though it might not be strep, but it could be something else that the antibiotics can kill.
@Lurker I agree with all you examples.
You seem to agree with this: keep in mind that you need you doc to make the final diagnosis so you dont want to annoy him too much
Without reading any such articles, I can tell you that the worst thing is for doctors to have to deal with patients arguing with them based on information they found with the help of Google. And they are for the most part right.Why don’t you answer my question first? Where have you seen any medical evidence that exposure renders you immune?
Based on the responses I got, I guess I didn't formulate my question properly, as people seem to have latched on to the word "blindly" in their responses.
So let's use a real-life scenario and give multiple choices for answers, so we can avoid the free-form answers.
Your 9 year old daughter complains of a headache and sore throat and has fever. You take her to the doctor who does a quick Step test that shows positive. The doctor prescribes antibiotics. Luckily, this is a practice that takes two swabs for a strep test, and then also put one test for an overnight. The next morning you call (waiting for a call from the MD office might take longer, so you call first thing in the morning) to find out that the overnight test came back negative.
Do you:
A. Fill the prescription immediately and start your daughter on antibiotics.
B. Postpone filling the prescription and call the next morning for the overnight results, and let your kid's body fight off whatever they might have.
C. Ask the doctor upon receiving the prescription if their are any alternatives that don't involve antibiotics.
D. Do as in A, and upon getting a call back from the office late in the next afternoon that the overnight came back negative, ask the Dr if you should continue on antibiotics, because even though it might not be strep, but it could be something else that the antibiotics can kill.
+1000000000000-100000000000
Add to that being a Yid with emunah and bitachon.
Honest question for @Lurker, @Dan, @S209, @PlatinumGuy (and possibly others): When you take your kid to the doctor and the doctor prescribed antibiotics, do you just follow the doctor blindly and let the kid (or for that matter if it's about you, the adult) take it, do you try to argue or negotiate with the doctor other options, or do you just ignore the doctor?I don’t know what I’d do in any specific situation but one thing is for sure: I wouldn’t do anything without adequate medical support for that decision.
Why don’t you answer my question first? Where have you seen any medical evidence that exposure renders you immune?
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.
If you'd rather wait for a manufactured vaccine, talk to me no sooner than Trumps 2nd year of his 2nd term.
In case you missed it:Did that answer my question? How? It certainly had NOTHING to do with waiting for a vaccine, and mentioning it undermines the seriousness with which I view your answer. How exactly did your eyes show you that exposure made people immune? Where did you pick that up? You ran an experiment?
How exactly did your eyes show you that exposure made people immune? Where did you pick that up? You ran an experiment?
What proof would you find acceptable in regards to immunity?A peer reviewed study, for example? Even strong anecdotal evidence that stands up against obvious scrutiny and equally plausible theories would help.
The Association of Jewish Camp Operators filed a lawsuit earlier this afternoon seeking an injunction allowing the camps to open.Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried.
Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
I don't think that this strategy will work, but what they are arguing is that the Governor relaxed (or more accurately ignored) the health concerns and public gathering restrictions in permitting people to exercise their 1st Amendment Free Speech rights while not allowing an exception to the sleep away camp closure to allow the exercise of First Amendment Freedom of Religion.
I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried.This is the important part. Until now all the complaints / grievances were just people posting on twitter or their blogs / news sites.
I am not aware of a single instance where a US court overturned government emergency restrictions. SCOTUS itself denied at least 1 case.
In Germany & France courts overruled a few blanket quarantine restrictions.
Considering that shuls couldn't get an exception to being non-essential, why would this work?
This is exactly what religious institutions in California argued, only to be shot down by SCOTUS, though it was impressive that they got their case accepted and with tremendous haste. Hard to imagine the camps will fare any better, especially when time is not on their side.Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discriminationIt's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.+1 this would also not allow Oorah to open as they are careful not to force religion on to minors I believe for legal reasons
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discrimination
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.There's also economic freedom, the government can't pick and choose winners and losers.
There's also economic freedom, the government can't pick and choose winners and losers.Good luck with that argument.
can they really prove that sleepaway camp is part of religious freedom? is this something that we want to complain about or does it lead to us looking like anytime something goes wrong for jews we complain about religious discrimination
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.I wonder what would have happened if I said this. :)
It's a massive stretch. If camp is religion then everything we do is religion.It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,
This is the important part. Until now all the complaints / grievances were just people posting on twitter or their blogs / news sites.There have been plenty of lawsuits.
Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.Did New York State ever issue a permit for a protest? Cuomo isn't NYS, so his statements are irrelevant.
Taking בכל דרכך דעהו to a whole new level!Lol
Did New York State ever issue a permit for a protest? Cuomo isn't NYS, so his statements are irrelevant.selective enforcement is picking and choosing.
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.the question is if that carries weight in court
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.Everything is selective. Saying liquor stores are essential and places of worship are not is being selective.
Everything is selective. Saying liquor stores are essential and places of worship are not is being selective.Gatherings and shopping are different, and I assume the court may say the same about camps. However the encouragement of protests definitely blows a massive hole in the governments arguement.
Gatherings and shopping are different, and I assume the court may say the same about camps. However the encouragement of protests definitely blows a massive hole in the governments arguement.Are day camps allowed? Is it just sleep over camps that are shutdown?
Are day camps allowed? Is it just sleep over camps that are shutdown?yes
Until now the restrictions were across the board, as soon as they started picking and choosing there a much bigger chance at winning in court. Additionally I can see the court changing course as time passes because there is a lot more that is known about the virus, they may require the government to justify it's actions. I'm not going to start speculating what the chances are, but it's definitely more than any previous case which had at best little, probably no chance.
Orthodox Jewish kids and youth took to the streets to protest demanding summer camps to be open https://t.co/R3gPseXm3t
— Gustavo Martinez (@newsguz) June 17, 2020
I don't believe this is correct. The California lawsuit that reached the Supreme Court alleged discrimination against religious institutions because the restrictions were NOT across the board, and the amount of people allowed in synagogues and churches was less than allowed in a Walmart. Yet SCOTUS upheld the government picking winners and losers on the basis of purported concerns of public health.The court kept the distinction between gatherings and shopping, at that time religious gatherings had the same restrictions as all other gatherings.
If they're doing this to show that they're not going down without a fight, I could hear that. But getting people's hopes up and making them think that they have any chance of prevailing (and in time to switch all camps back to sleepaway) is a fantasy.
Heard this hilarious rumor:
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
Was a good joke..
From what I'm hearing, seems like a lot of camps that can survive financially without government programs are opening, and are readying to deal with the consequences.
My understanding of the strategy was to get a judge to give an injunction to allow them to open until this is settled. If they do, this drags past the summer.
May not be about winning.
Cuomo said to “get creative” , so they are with all of these loopholes and diversions.
Heard this hilarious rumor:I know of a girls camp that intends to do this
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
Yes, lawsuit was filed yesterday and request for TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) will follow early next week which they hope will be granted and allow them to open camps legally while the lawsuit plays itself out in a long drawn out process.
is a fantasy.
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,
selective enforcement is picking and choosing.Maybe yes maybe no, but the question at hand is whether or not the NYS DOH is required to issue permits for camps, and being that the NYS DOH did not issue permits for protests the whole claim is preposterous. It's also silly because while some ignorant masses may fall for it, their donors aren't as stupid and will not be happy with this waste of resources.
Camps are paying for it.
Maybe yes maybe no, but the question at hand is whether or not the NYS DOH is required to issue permits for camps, and being that the NYS DOH did not issue permits for protests the whole claim is preposterous. It's also silly because while some ignorant masses may fall for it, their donors aren't as stupid and will not be happy with this waste of resources.
Camps are paying for it.And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?Going back in circles. Because multiple lawsuits of the nature have been tossed out by courts across the country up to SCOTUS. The outcome is well known.
How do you know the Agudah is involved?https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1874159/breaking-lawsuit-filed-summer-camps-organizations-sue-ny-governor-cuomo.html
Following New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo’s crushing decision this past Friday to disallow overnight camps this summer, the Agudath Israel of America-led Association of Jewish Camp Operators (AJCO) and several parents filed suit today in federal court to overturn that decision.
Going back in circles. Because multiple lawsuits of the nature have been tossed out by courts across the country up to SCOTUS. The outcome is well known.
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance, which is why no respectable attorney attached their name to it,I agree its a massive stretch. Courts are quite deferential to legislators, and it seems to be a stretch that this would be in violation of 1A. But I would imagine the goal is just to stretch out the lawsuit long enough to allow camps to open this summer.
And as far as your last statement, I think that's just wrong. The attorney here is a very accomplished and very well regarded. He is the same one who was involved in the PEARLS/YAFFED lawsuits and for the most part he's quite "respectable."+100
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.
I beleive that's the first post of yours I ever "liked"!Just the facts, Jack!
Keep em coming!
Keep the camps closed and just let the kids protest. They are having more fun they would every at any camp.Yup, those were my thoughts as well, reminded me from camp chanting Night swim
Yup, those were my thoughts as well, reminded me from camp chanting Night swimWait, the daily color war chants were a protest to have CW earlier?
If I was a camp owner, instead of trying to fight the State I would try to get a lab to run a PCR test once or twice a week on pooled samples of the entire camp, like China did. Cost should be minimal and it should be easy to convince the state under that arrangement with strong contingency plans in place the camps are safer than home.From the Agudah statement it sounds like they did this and it fell on deaf ears
From the Agudah statement it sounds like they did this and it fell on deaf earsThe lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.
The lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.
The lawsuit (paragraphs 72-74) says the proposed protocol is to test all campers and staff for Covid & antibodies before camp, but then only monitor symptoms thereafter.Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?Many have it covered at community antibody drives also private Urgent care centers seem to be offering for free but not sure where the funding comes from.
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?
I haven't heard of anyone in NY paying for it.Insurance should cover.
Isn't the antibodies test like a few hundred dollars?110 here in lakewood by one of the urgent cares if you want to pay out of pocket
110 here in lakewood by one of the urgent cares if you want to pay out of pocketThat's not bad.
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240
thanks to gov cuomo
Camps might just go out of state .
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).
The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.
Pooled sample testing is very simple & cheap
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?
What do you gain with pooled sample testing?
What do the contingency plans look like?Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:
If any new positive tests for PCR, you strictly isolate that person (and test for antibodies?)? What’s next? Test the whole camp? Send home everyone who is PCR-negative?
This sound like protocol for an active war zone. These camps are for young kids.... most are either gonna open anyway or do day camp without these draconian measures.
Cheaper than individual testing Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:
Immediate segregation into limited size capsules
Sanitation.
Individual PCR tests for everybody.
Isolation plan for positive cases - joint capsule/hospital/home/individual isolation
Camp disbanding transportation plan / continuing in capsules until additional cases are ruled out
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearing
Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearingA TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
I don't know why there's an assumption that this won't get shoved to the front of the docket of the TRO is approved.TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
All food will be delivered before the start of Camp.
Any person that leaves grounds will not be allowed back in.
TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.A TRO cannot be appealed
if its out off NY let it rip through, who cares its harmless to kids, transmittable rate is very low, there is a study that suggests that children cant transmit the virus to others, the plan was only to please the gov which didn't work out wellMost of them had it so it won't even rip through but ya most camps that are out of state will take very few if any precautions.
A TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.Yep, the lawsuit is meant to appease people like you who don't know better
Although the test for obtaining a TRO or PI may vary slightly across jurisdictions, generally a plaintiff seeking preliminary injunctive relief must satisfy a four-factor test: (1) that he or she is likely to succeed on the merits of his claims; (2) that he or she is likely to suffer irreparable harm without preliminary relief; (3) the balance of equities between the parties support an injunction; and (4) the injunction is in the public interest
A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must estab- lish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of prelimi- nary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest.....
The standard for a preliminary injunction is essentially the same as for a permanent injunction with the exception that the plaintiff must show a likelihood of success on the merits rather than actual success
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.Good point many teenage counselors will laugh the whole thing off....
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.Probably still more competent than a lot of government organizations
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
Reminds me of:QuoteA House on the Roof
Levy built a sukkah on the roof of his apartment building several days before the eight-day holiday of Sukkot began. After the holiday began, the landlord noticed it and demanded that it be removed immediately, claiming it was a violation of the terms of the building lease. Levy refused, telling the landlord that since this was a religious observance, he had the right to build the sukkah there.
The landlord disagreed and took the case to court.
In court, the landlord argued that the sukkah was unsightly, against the terms of the lease, and was a fire hazard. Levy argued that his religious rights would be ignored. The judge, who happened to be Jewish, listened patiently and then offered his verdict.
“I agree with the landlord in this case, and I therefore rule that you have ten days from today to take down your hut.”
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”IIRC that's where it's from.
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”The judge was Judge Silver Rabbi Amos Bunim's FIL a frum yid.
Heard this hilarious rumor:Apparently this isn't happening in the end.
A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!
(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)
If anyone can verify this please do.
A TRO cannot be appealed
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order
Judges' decisions on whether or not to issue a TRO may not be appealed.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order
As a general matter, appeal lies only from final judgments of the district court, 28 U.S.C. § 1291, or interlocutory orders that grant or refuse injunctions. 28 U.S.C. § 1292(a)(1). As a TRO is interlocutory and is not technically an injunction, it is ordinarily not appealable. See Hoh v. Pepsico, Inc., 491 F.2d 556, 560 (2d Cir.1974). However, when a grant or denial of a TRO “might have a ‘serious, perhaps irreparable, consequence,’ and ... can be ‘effectually challenged’ only by immediate appeal,” we may exercise appellate jurisdiction. Carson v. American Brands, Inc., 450 U.S. 79, 84, 101 S.Ct. 993, 996–97, 67 L.Ed.2d 59 (1981) (citation omitted); United States v. Miller, 14 F.3d 761, 764 (2d Cir.1994). Because the district court's order met this standard, this court had jurisdiction to entertain Green Point's appeal, as well as the motion for a stay that accompanied it.
Romer v. Green Point Sav. Bank, 27 F.3d 12, 15 (2d Cir. 1994)
I have successfully appealed TROs. There is a procedure to do so, regardless of what is in the wiki.Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)
Here is language from a Second Circuit Court of Appeals (the Court which would hear the appeal from an Order in this case) specifically permitting an appeal from a TRO.
The courts of appeals (other than the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit) shall have jurisdiction of appeals from all final decisions of the district courts of the United States,
Thus, immediate appeal is confined to those decisions that are conclusive, that resolve important questions completely separate from the merits, and that would render such questions effectively unreviewable on appeal from the final judgment in the underlying action.
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp
I don't know yet when it will be heard by Judge Sharpe as he has not signed it yet.
Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1291
Case law developed to allow some departure from the strict language, but per SCOTUS the criteria are
As such, this TRO would normally not be appealable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocutory_appeal
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.All good and fine, but this
There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.
All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.
While a final decision is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topic
There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.
All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.
While a final decision or a decision on an injunction is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topicBetter than the people who became experts without reading anything, and better than people who knock the messenger when they can't disprove the message.
All good and fine, but this Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.
If you practice this for a living, surely you know how laughable this whole legal effort it.
https://vimeo.com/431424067
It's a joke. It's just meant to justify raising funds for the organization and appease the public that they're doing something. Nobody really thinks this stands a chance
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
Camps that are serious about opening this summer, moved out of state.
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.As an overnight or day camp?
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.Plenty of the chasidish will open regardless. Its only a problem for kids anyway.
As an overnight or day camp?Ulster County is giving problems for day camps also, thats where one of the big satmar camps is.
I know a camp that is serious about opening this summer no matter what. In the Catskills.
Including the Agudah camp itself. Just goes to show what a joke and waste of money this pony show is. IMO the resources and connections could be better utilized on something that may actually yield real benefits.Only 2 of the grades moved out IIUC
Including the Agudah camp itself. Just goes to show what a joke and waste of money this pony show is. IMO the resources and connections could be better utilized on something that may actually yield real benefits.Based on what are you saying this? Do you know whats going on behind the scenes?
Only 2 of the grades moved out IIUC
This I just don't get. To what end? If the camp gets shut down after a week or 2, what are those kids supposed to do? At that point, it's too late for parents to make other arrangements. And what about the damage to the institution itself? Who pays the fines? Will this impair their ability to open next year? What about permits or certificates they need to run other programs? I just don't see justification here.Highly unlikely they get shut down, and for kids that live in brooklyn and have been stuck in a small apartment the last 4 months they'll take 2 weeks.
Very possible. I'm not very familiar with their camps. I just saw the announcement of their move to NH.From what I understand, Rabbi Reisman felt that 7th and 8th (or 8th/9th, don't remember) graders needed camp more than others so he pushed them to move to NH. The rest of the grades are opening as day camp, I believe.
Based on what are you saying this? Do you know whats going on behind the scenes?
Highly unlikely they get shut down
Based on what I see and read. I have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. I would point out that the question, "do you know what's going on behind the scenes," was thrown around a lot when they were trying to get shuls opened. IIRC, there wasn't much accomplished.There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..
Based on what?That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.
There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..
That's not true.You know of any shuls that the cops shut down??
As an overnight or day camp?
Highly unlikely they get shut down, and for kids that live in brooklyn and have been stuck in a small apartment the last 4 months they'll take 2 weeks.Of course they will get shutdown (maybe permanently). We are talking about Cuomo's state here.
You know of any shuls that the cops shut down??
There was plenty accomplished with the shuls... after pesach the cops didn't go around closing shuls that were open..That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.
That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.
You're describing a powerless government that doesn't match the realities on the ground. If this were realistic, we'd all be CHAZ/CHOP, living in an anarchist's utopia.Would not say "all"
That some of the camps have thousands of kids... what are they gonna do? Put up a fence? Bus them out? Fine the? They'll fight it.You live in alternate reality. In real life if Cuomo wants to shut it down, he'll send some cops there if needed put a few people in jail, and the camp will rush to get all the kids home. And no it won't take months, there are duty judges 24/7.
The provisions of the sanitary code shall have the force and effect of law and the non-compliance or non-conformance with any provision thereof shall constitute a violation punishable on conviction for a first offense by a fine not exceeding two hundred fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not exceeding fifteen days, or both; and for a second or subsequent offense by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not exceeding fifteen days, or both.
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.
770, multiple times, although that may be different because they had the backing of the gabboim. Also IIRC, many shuls were targeted after DeBlasio's funeral debacle.
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.Sullivan country very much wants these camps. They are big money makers for the county.
Sullivan country very much wants these camps. They are big money makers for the county.
If the camps are completely self-contained with all supplies sourced and stored on-site before opening, what financial benefits do the counties get?Jobs for their residents. I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
Jobs for their residents. I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
Jobs for their residents.
I won't be shocked if camps open out of state and don't come back which is definitely a big loss to them.
More than just the jobs for the residents at the camp. Think about all the local contractors who get brought in for electrical, plumbing, septic work.
Also the camp may be buying its food from elsewhere, but anything from office supplies to cleaning and janitorial supplies all come from local merchants.
This is why I don't think "no one in, no one out" is feasible.IDK what they would do about local contractors, but I don't think a delivery done without any interaction would violate a no one in, no one out policy.
I understand this concern, but I think it's unwarranted. Many camps own their grounds, and I believe all the camps which relocated are renting grounds from established camps which are temporarily closed for this year due to Covid. To find a permanent home in those locations would be much harder to do.I don't think camps will cease to exist in sullivan county, but I'd be shocked if this doesn't cause some shift out of the area.
For them to close the camp they would have to observe the kids sleeping there at night, No?There isn't really any proof burden - the Health commissioner has authority to decide. You'd have to convince a court to overturn his decision based on lack of due process or evidence to the contrary
All-day its day camp
Would they need a search want to go onto cap grounds and into bunkhouses?
I don't think camps will cease to exist in sullivan county, but I'd be shocked if this does cause some shift out of the area.
Rosh Chodesh Tammuz
Dear Parents,
Covid-19
BH, this past Friday, June 19th, the county where XXXX XXXXXXX is located entered its final phase of reopening. The program and grounds are being prepared, and we are getting ready to provide your son with a summer filled with learning and fun activities, in a chassidishe atmosphere.
We are currently in the final stages of preparing our Covid-19 policy in accordance with CDC guidance for summer camps and the local health officials. We are implementing rigorous janitorial procedures to ensure the safety and wellbeing of talmidim and staff.
All talmidim and staff will be required to be tested (with negative results) or have antibodies for Covid-19 several days before coming to camp.
More information will be forthcoming.
I think you meant you wouldn't be shocked. I would be. Camps are too invested there, and the convenience factor is too high to uproot an existing camp. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see new camps start up out of state if the Poconos works out this summer.I meant I'd be shocked if it doesn't. An established camp would never pick themselves up and move out of the area, but once they're forced to I would think some of them will decide for a variety of reasons to stay where they went and not come back.
I meant I'd be shocked if it doesn't. An established camp would never pick themselves up and move out of the area, but once they're forced to I would think some of them will decide for a variety of reasons to stay where they went and not come back.
That's a local decision. Upstate clearly doesn't want these camps so I don't see why they wouldn't enforce the closure.They don't know what they want. They want the money but not the people, they'll all end up letting day camps. And once they have permission with that camps will do whatever they want
If that option presents itself, I can see where a conversation would be had by camp admin. I just don't know of too many camps who will have that option, as they are using grounds that are only temporarily vacant because of Covid.I think some camps are covering PA rental costs by renting their NY campus to yeshivos but not sure if its true
Push off to Monday, how convenient....And now the camps don't want to let them push it off.
And now the camps don't want to let them push it off.
You have it backwards - the letter from the Association of camps asking for the June 25 date for the hearing was filed before the AG filed their letter asking for June 29th.Not going to argue. But read through the response to the judge. They're talking about how cuomo stalled and why they need a hearing asap and not to delay it
Not going to argue. But read through the response to the judge. They're talking about how cuomo stalled and why they need a hearing asap and not to delay it
When you read docket entries the lower number was filed first. In this case the docket entry for the camp's letter (which I posted here https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115525.msg2280183#msg2280183) is entry 8 and the AG's responsive letter is entry 9.Your right. Which is why I didn't even argue
You have it backwards - the letter from the Association of camps asking for the June 25 date for the hearing was filed before the AG filed their letter asking for June 29th.
Plenty of the chasidish will charge your CC regardless. Its only a problem for parents anyway.FTFY
FTFYUnauthorized and risk a dispute?
So when is the hearing ultimately scheduled for, 25th or 29th?Could be neither date, its up to the Judge as to when he wants to hold it.
For them to close the camp they would have to observe the kids sleeping there at night, No?
All-day its day camp
Would they need a search want to go onto cap grounds and into bunkhouses?
Staff are allowed to stay there...
Does a health inspector need a warrant to inspect the grounds?
What happens when an inspector walks into bunkhouses and sees clothes and dirty laundry and bunk beds with pillows and blankets? Try explain that you are just having a day camp with all that
Staff are allowed to stay there...Every bunkhouse is full of staff?
Every bunkhouse is full of staff?Staff for the day camp...
I get that.Say something along the lines of extra staff to allow for smaller isolated bunks....
But all it takes is one nosy health inspector to count how many beds are used and how many staff members there are to realize that the kids have to be sleeping there.
IINM most camps have much more campers than staff so if it was just the staff sleeping there, there should be lots of empty beds/bunkhouses
This says it the best. Enough with these overly worried and overly emphasizing the greatness and infallibility of the “scientists”. The most they are doing at this point is educated guesses.
There is a bashefer of the velt!!!
And reimbursing salaries of Agudah staff who spent time on it?
Why shouldn’t the agudah be spending time working on this?
How do you know the Agudah is involved?
Staff for the day camp...
Camp AGUDA???Look at the lawsuit. Same lawyer who sued dept of education
As an overnight or day camp?the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pull
the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pull
the camp which I manage is opening their just not sure yet which shtick their gonna pullI know of few main stream camps that also plan on opening.... no major chiddush
Why would you possibly admit this in a public forum?What's the problem? He's not publicizing which camp.
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
I know of few main stream camps that also plan on opening.... no major chiddush
Camps are opening. They just don't care.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Camps are opening. They just don't care.FTFY
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for the Jews. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Why would you possibly admit this in a public forum?Not sure it’s so simple that there’s an issue of Dina dimalchusa dina here
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Camps are opening. They just don't care.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
What's the problem? He's not publicizing which camp.He isn't anon. Shouldnt be hard to figure out (especially if you have access to govt databases)
Iyh all your campers will be well, but you are basically admitting that the camp you manage is going to break the law (and halacha of dina d'machusa dina).
Not sure it’s so simple that there’s an issue of Dina dimalchusa dina here
Wow! After everything that has happened in this country these last few weeks there are still people that are concerned about the law. This country has descended into anarchy and dictatorship.
I used to be a law abiding citizen too
Cue "But Officer...!" As a frum Jew, how do you justify following in the ways of the riffraff on this? Lo seileichu doesn't apply anymore?
Maybe cuz it’s just politics now
Camps are opening. They just don't care.I'm sure a lot is going on behind the scene.
If the Governor tries to shut them down, there will be a scene. The pictures won't look pretty for Cuomo. Hundreds of frum kids being lined up and shipped out. Imagine that happening over and over again as each camp is closed.
There's going to be fireworks, especially with the more chasidish camps.
Can we assume that the camps which are opening have some understanding on what will be enforced. Much more rational to me than just relying on this:
I'm sure a lot is going on behind the scene.
This was said in the lead-up to Cuomo's ban, too, with shockingly unpredictable results...Was cute seeing all the articles and comments saying I was wrong :)
This was said in the lead-up to Cuomo's ban, too, with shockingly unpredictable results...Not true, those in the know never said so.
Why would you assume they know how it will be enforced when the enforcers themselves don't know?Seems like you don't know how Gov. Coumo operates, you should have seen his reaction when asked on KJ open schools.
I hope camps and parents are consulting Daas Torah before brazenly fighting the State of New York.Many of these camps (especially the chasidish ones) belong to a kehilla and are presumably following their daas torah.
If Cuomo sits down, we will win a better summer for the kids, but if he fights back, the scene will be catastrophic for years to come.
Many of these camps (especially the chasidish ones) belong to a kehilla and are presumably following their daas torah.Commas would be greatly appreciated.
Most all the camp owners have a lot of skin in the game and are well aware of the consequences to their camps if "the scene will be catastrophic for years to come" so one would assume they are calculating the risks and feel that the situation you describe is unlikely
While Cuomo sets the laws enforcement is on the local level so if you have things worked out with local law enforcement usually you should be ok. (there has been a lot going on in many communities that is against the gov's orders coordinated with local law enforcement)
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)are you referring to ripping down the statues?
are you referring to ripping down the statues?Hypocrisy at its finest!
They'll do whatever it takes to keep the kids in a kosher environment, even if the entire country turns against us.When someone blatantly violates the law everyone should turn against them no matter who they are!
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)Na, we're just establishing our own CHAZ. You should embrace it.
Na, we're just establishing our on CHAZ/CHAP. You should embrace it.Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!
Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!Only embracing well run CHAZ establishments.
Only embracing well run CHAZ establishments.
Hypocrisy at its finest!
Pompous arrogant preacher at his finest.
When someone blatantly violates the law everyone should turn against them no matter who they are!Theoretical question here. What would you do if Trump signed an executive order forbidding anyone from owning a puzzle? Would you comply?
Pompous arrogant preacher at his finest.I see the hypocrites don't like being called out. Get use to it. :P
Glad to see many are ok to see the law blatantly broke. ::)What you seem to not understand is that there are 2 parts of doing the right thing in life, one is the legal aspect and the second is the moral aspect. Cuomo isn't God and people only listen to him because otherwise they'll get into trouble. The issue with rioting and blm and all that is they're making this country an anarchy. Nobody cares about them breaking the law and getting a $50 ticket. They're tearing down statues and Burning our flag because they hate our country. Anyone who does that should be shot or sent to China. In every functional society there are police to keep people safe, different levels of people to be in charge of everyone else. When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened. So ya this isn't about legal or illegal.
When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened.Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.
Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.Just because you felt there was a health concern doesn't mean they did. Once people knew what was going on they closed up.
What you seem to not understand is that there are 2 parts of doing the right thing in life, one is the legal aspect and the second is the moral aspect. Cuomo isn't God and people only listen to him because otherwise they'll get into trouble. The issue with rioting and blm and all that is they're making this country an anarchy. Nobody cares about them breaking the law and getting a $50 ticket. They're tearing down statues and Burning our flag because they hate our country. Anyone who does that should be shot or sent to China. In every functional society there are police to keep people safe, different levels of people to be in charge of everyone else. When we felt there was a health concern, the frum places closed, when they felt there wasn't one any longer they opened. So ya this isn't about legal or illegal.What you don't understand in this country we live by laws. You like to pick and choose which ones to obey. You pick and choose based on who is involved. That is hypocrisy at its finest.
What you don't understand in this country we live by laws. You like to pick and choose which ones to obey. You pick and choose based on who is involved. That is hypocrisy at its finest.These things aren't set in stone.... you can sue the state etc... none of these camps are going to blatantly violate the law. Their going to figure out a way to make it legal. And these are individuals who effects nobody but themselves, vs whats going on in the world now which will every single Persons way of life.
Revisionist history. The same community that's planning to open camps definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.Hmm. For example? Enlighten us please.
I see the hypocrites don't like being called out. Get use to it. :PI see no one has called you out for far too long, get used to it.
I see no one has called you out for far too long, get used to it.If you can back it up go right ahead. The problem is you can't back it up. :P
These things aren't set in stone.... you can sue the state etc... none of these camps are going to blatantly violate the law. Their going to figure out a way to make it legal. And these are individuals who effects nobody but themselves, vs whats going on in the world now which will every single Persons way of life.Posting here common sense won't work, you should find a better way to inject nuance in his brain, or even better, let go.
Hmm. For example? Enlighten us please.
Yup. My source is the pair of eyes and the brains granted to me by my creator.
If you can back it up go right ahead. The problem is you can't back it up. :PFile it under
" I don't give a flying rat's a** what Chaim thinks"
That wasn't said in promotion of late closures, was said in promoting earlier re-openings.
For someone that doesn't care sure does respond a lot to my posts. ;)
That wasn't said in promotion of late closures, was said in promoting earlier re-openings.Oh I know. I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.
Oh I know. I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.Ok so I'll teach you the aleph bais.
Ok so I'll teach you the aleph bais.
That community is located in NY. New York state was hit first with the virus, and therefor closed way too late, that's why ALL of NY suffered the most fatalities and the highest infection rate.
Thank you for that, so I guess they didn't close when there was a health concern? That was his point, which I was refuting.I don't believe you're following his point correctly. Anyways, you started with this:
definitely didn't close when there was a health concern.And then shifted to:
I feel the onus of proof is not on me; take a look at the infection rate in that community and prove me wrong.
so I guess they didn't close when there was a health concern?Nice!
Then embrace it and stop being a hypocrite!!!most people here at this point don't have an issue with flouting laws that they see as unjust. They still have an issue with rioting, looting, tearing down statues, burning down police stations and the like. Not only because it is against the law but because it is against common decency and it is damaging others property
AFAIK all camps that have plans to open are working with lawyers to have some kind of legality.Violating an executive order equals breaking the law. They may be challenging the executive order in court but till that gets turned over or till there is an injunction it is the law.
Why is everybody here saying that they're breaking the law? Is challenging an executive order equal to breaking the law?
I believe that many camp directors (and I assume the Daas Torah guiding them) feel that there is an element of yaharog v'al yaavor when it comes to keeping kids in camp and off the streets. They'll do whatever it takes to keep the kids in a kosher environment, even if the entire country turns against us.I'm stunned that you actually believe that. ד' עבירות חמורות.
most people here at this point don't have an issue with flouting laws that they see as unjust. They still have an issue with rioting, looting, tearing down statues, burning down police stations and the like. Not only because it is against the law but because it is against common decency and it is damaging others propertyWhen you pick and choose which laws are unjust based on who it effects is hypocrisy at its finest.
Wow! After everything that has happened in this country these last few weeks there are still people that are concerned about the law. This country has descended into anarchy and dictatorship.
I used to be a law abiding citizen too
When you pick and choose which laws are unjust based on who it effects is hypocrisy at its finest.he explained it very clearly
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVrdgWCx/Secondhand-Easy-Azurevase-size-restricted.gif)
I'm stunned that you actually believe that. ד' עבירות חמורות.
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.May hashem help us all. At least I understand now how the lawyers are claiming camp is a religious freedom :D
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
he explained it very clearlyCutting locks - ok
I don't know what you personally believe, but I can't believe that any posek is standing behind these principles.
1. The kids are being as used pawns and no rational parent wants to see their kid getting sent home because their camp was shut down by the local Department of Health.
2. If anyone actually believed that this was an issue of gilui arayos the entire community would be funding sending kids from poor homes to summer camp every summer. Even if camps would have opened in a normal (non-Covid) year, there would be many, many kids who would not be in camp due to financial circumstances.
3. The legal/PR risks are nothing compared with the abject chillul Hashem created by a premeditated violation of the law. This is not people not wearing a mask at funeral or not obeying social distance guidelines. These would be organized summer camps choosing to intentionally violate the law.
Hearing scheduled for June 30th.
Question is, if the camps open before then, how will that impact this hearing?
TEXT ORDER granting 7 , 8 and 10 Plaintiffs' application for an Order to Show Cause. Plaintiffs' application is supported by a showing of good cause why the standard Notice of Motion procedure cannot be used, as required by Local Rule 7.1(e) of the Local Rules of Practice for this Court. (See, e.g., Dkt. No. 7 , Attach. 18, at 3-5, 8.) Furthermore, Plaintiffs have already given reasonable advance notice of the action, the motion for a TRO and the application. (Dkt. No. 7 , Attach. 18, at 9; Dkt. No. 9 .) Plaintiffs shall serve this Text Order and their motion papers on Defendant immediately by both email and overnight mail. Plaintiffs shall also serve Defendant with a copy of their Complaint in accordance with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. Plaintiffs shall file proofs of service with the Court immediately following service as prescribed herein. Defendant's response papers are due by 5:00 P.M. on Friday, June 26, 2020. Plaintiffs' reply papers are due by 12:00 P.M. (noon) on Monday, June 29, 2020. A hearing on Plaintiffs' motion for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction shall be held at 10:00 A.M. on Tuesday, June 30, 2020, via Skype for Business. The Court's deputy clerk will contact the parties with details pertaining to the use of Skype for Business. SO ORDERED by Chief Judge Glenn T. Suddaby on 6/24/2020. (sal ) (Entered: 06/24/2020)
AFAIK boys and girls camps won't have sleepover if it's not cleared 100% legally. Bachorim camps is the biggest concern, some got fully legal statuses, others are still waiting and might take riskier routes if possible.If everyone is over 18 YO, are they bound by this EO?
If everyone is over 18 YO, are they bound by this EO?Not sure, Mainstream chassidish camps don't have all above 18 generally. But maybe that's how some got collage statuses.
Pawns? how is that? Who is forcing the kids to go or the parents to send? I wish my teenage daughter's camp would open (they are going the daycamp route and I am not in the catskills) and I would send in a heartbeat. My daughter is plotzing to go to camp. If they get shut down and she gets sent home that's the risk and we are willing to take that.
1. The kids are being as used pawns and no rational parent wants to see their kid getting sent home because their camp was shut down by the local Department of Health.
I'm stunned that you actually thought that I personally share these beliefs.I don't think this is ג' חמורות nor do I think the camps do. I do think they believe not having camp is a serious issue which can lead to serious problems for some. That is what is guiding them to skirt the law and do what they can to have camp.
I believe that the directors (and the daas torah guiding them) believe that.
I believe that they believe that keeping teens on the streets all summer is tantamount to gilui arayos, which is one of the gimel avairos chamuros.
I believe that they believe that the legal or PR risks of opening are nothing compared to the risks of not opening.
Cutting locks - okDid you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.
Having summer camps - ok
Mass gatherings for weddings - ok
Mass gatherings for funerals - ok
Kids protesting without SD or masks - ok
The list goes on and on.
Peaceful protest is not ok but gassing, rubber bullets and other things used against peaceful protesters is ok
The hypocrisy has never been any clearer. ::)
Did you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.There are many here that supported gassing the peaceful DC protesters for a stupid photo op. Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.
Did you see anyone here advocating gassing and using rubber bullets against peaceful protesters? I haven't.You should try to keep up with the threads. @CountValentine and maybe one or two others were the only ones voicing concern about said event.
There are many here that supported gassing the mostlypeacefulDC protesters for a stupid photo op. Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.
LitvaksLooks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.
Looks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.
Looks like the prudent thing we do. This is golus.How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.
How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.I must have missed where filing a dispute for being charged for a cancelled service was against the law. Silly me!
I must have missed where filing a dispute for being charged for a cancelled service was against the law. Silly me!There are loopholes for the camps. You can open as a religious institution, temporary residency, and others. Most of them to plan on blatantly violating the exec order.
There are loopholes for the camps. You can open as a religious institution, temporary residency, and others. Most of them to plan on blatantly violating the exec order.
Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?I hope you are not being serious.
What the hell happened to us?All hands on deck fighting the great threat to Judaism; kids who can’t sleep at camp.
We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.::) ::) ::)
All hands on deck fighting the great threat to Judaism; kids who can’t sleep at camp.If it’s up to the kids, they don’t want to sleep at camp anyways ;)
::) ::) ::)Not his first bizarre one here.
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.Smart to keep the kids out of the picture.
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.
So if they open in NY its child endangerment but if they open next door in PA its not???Which one is wrong, NY or PA?
It's a ludicrous claim.
So if they open in NY its child endangerment but if they open next door in PA its not???
It's a ludicrous claim.
Actually, opening a camp without permits is child endangerment in both states.
Which one is wrong, NY or PA?Finally got an answer to a question.
Which one is wrong, NY or PA?
Actually, opening a camp without permits is child endangerment in both states.
The governor told satmar he will have them arrested. (per the rumor)They'll still vote D anyway.
They'll still vote D anyway.On condition that he pardons them.
They'll still vote D anyway.
Many chareidim in NY are waking up and realizing the issues with voting D.Won't really matter in NJ/NY.
Many chareidim in NY are waking up and realizing the issues with voting D.I grew up knowing that we register as D even though we don't believe in everything they believe in, by the time I was eligible to register I registered as R
Word on the street is that satmar was told that if they open the directors will be arrested for child endangerment.this is just perfect to scare them.
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
Name one camp that is opening as an orphanage. Not happening. Stick to the facts.He was responding to my hypothetical example of a loophole a camp could use. There are other loopholes out there esp for 18+
They believe there is an element of yaahoreg v'al yaaover to this.And just like that, everything American Jews do in 2020 became a yaahoreg v'al yaaover.
And just like that, everything American Jews do in 2020 became a yaahoreg v'al yaaover.
Wake up and smell the coffee.Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?
Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?
Some perspective is in order.
Stick to the facts.
Its wrong that the same act (which people are considering quite severe) can can get you arrested in one state but not in another. And yes I know states are allowed different laws and will not go into that argument. In this case, NY governor is acting dictatorial and not at all in the best interests of his constituents.
That may be so, but all camps in PA have permits to my knowledge. So nobody is going to get arrested there for child endangerment because they're operating a camp.
Obviously its obnoxious that NY chose not to issue them and then may arrest people based on that.
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
If you go back and read what I wrote, unlike rehabs, the emergency for struggling teens is to get them specifically into a frum camp setting. As of now, those exist mainly in the Catskills, in the State of NY.
Many camps that are able to move out of state, are doing it. Most camps can't just pick themselves up and move out of state. Its an enormous undertaking, in such a short amount of time..
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
The rehab example may warrant being outside a Jewish infrastructure to save a person's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.
However, to save a kid's emotional AND spiritual well being they actually would need to be in a Jewish environment. Unfortunately not all camps were logistically able to swing going out of state even if they started planning months ago, the earliestcould have been late March which is not early enough in many cases.
My child is lucky enough to be attending a camp that moved to PA, I'm just feeling really terrible for the thousands of teens who were going to attend camps who were not able to move out and now they have nowhere to go because of a dictatorial decree.
There is no dictatorship, or even any abuse of power. There is a system in place.
So why is NY the ONLY state to have banned sleepaway camp???
I sympathize with the at-risk issue. I lived it myself. It's not an excuse to break the law. You call Cuomo's rules a dictatorship. You know what at risk youth see as a dictatorship? Rabbonim and halachah. If you can crap on Cuomo, why can't they crap on their rabbonim?
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.
Because honest and true rabbonim are not two faced.
You've read and heard it all over, but I'll say it again. When these teens see Cuomo allowing, condoning, and supporting mass protests (that turn into rioting, looting etc) and then turning around and banning sleep away camps that they've so been looking forward to, what kind of message does THAT send to them?
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.Isn’t the legislature complicit in that?
He was responding to my hypothetical example of a loophole a camp could use. There are other loopholes out there esp for 18+I wouldn't consider this a loophole.
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.The sources I read said it was based on the medical advice of Dr. Zucker.
The sources I read said it was based on the medical advice of Dr. Zucker.Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.
Isn’t the legislature complicit in that?In a way yes. But these politicians could be jeopardizing their futures in the Democratic Party by trying to go against the governor.
Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.That's called politics. Doesn't mean he didn't advise that.
That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?You get what you pay for!
That's called politics. Doesn't mean he didn't advise that.Right. So it was a political decision not a medical one.
Right. So it was a political decision not a medical one.Not at all what I said.
Oh please. Watch when Zucker announced it, he all but said that it came from Cuomo and he was just the messenger.Do you have a link to that? I only saw it in writing.
Do you have a link to that? I only saw it in writing.
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
Dr. Zucker’s role on the sleep away camps was merely passing a message on, per his freudian slip. pic.twitter.com/trFbNRmIyN
— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) June 14, 2020
Yea.. He didn't say what you think he said. He said it was one of the tougher decisions he had to make, then corrected himself, because it was technically Cuomo's decision to make, so he changed it to advice he had to pass on [to the technical decision maker, Cuomo].That’s exactly what I think he said. The decision was Cuomo’s and his only. They said originally they were going to wait for the report on Kawasaki to come out but guess what? They decided to close the camps even before that.
That’s exactly what I think he said. The decision was Cuomo’s and his only. They said originally they were going to wait for the report on Kawasaki to come out but guess what? They decided to close the camps even before that.
Cuomo made the decision and then forced his crony Zucker to defend it.
No, you're not understanding. The slip was that Zucker actually made the decision. Zucker said as much. The problem is, Zucker doesn't have the power to make that decision, so he changed it to "advice" he gave Cuomo.That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
That is not how government works. If the "politicians in Albany" wanted a different outcome, it would have happened. This is called passing the buck.
No, you're not understanding. The slip was that Zucker actually made the decision. Zucker said as much. The problem is, Zucker doesn't have the power to make that decision, so he changed it to "advice" he gave Cuomo.
That’s not true. Zucker does have the power to make the decision. As the head of the DOH he decides wether the camps get permits or not.
Cuomo did. And it was purely political.
That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?
The point is that Cuomo is not acting as an irrational dictator. The decision in NYS was based on an interpretation of the data and the science, so if you're trying to argue against the decision, you'll be more convincing if you argue against the data and science, rather than your dislike of Cuomo.Like the Kawasaki report they said they were basing the decision on?
Curious, what political benefit was there for Cuomo here?
And the governor of PA is a what?
And the governor of PA is a what? How come he didn't ban sleepaway camps "based on science and data"?You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions! How rare that must be!
Answering my question with a question is not an answer. You know good and well that my question shows how hypocritical Cuomo is.
To flex his power muscles and show that he will not be cowed by pressure from anyone that he feels he will not bow to.
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
Like the Kawasaki report they said they were basing the decision on?If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
Exactly.
What data is he using??? According to them there should have been a second wave or at least a bump in cases since the "protests". Yet the numbers continue to go down.
This is pure politics. It is called CYA.
Cuomo has to look at the benefits of allowing it:
1) If he allows it and there is some type of outbreak in camps, he is screwed.
2) If he doesn't allow it, no harm and no foul.
Losing some clout with the jewish vote is not gonna be enough to sway him. We are the only ones that care at this point. Give me a reason (politically) why Cuomo would allow it?
A Democrat in a swing state, whose state's politicians have put him under immense pressure to ease many of the restrictions he had in place. He's actually a great example of how bad NY politics is.
You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions! How rare that must be!
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
I don't see Kawasaki in Zucker's announcement, but I haven't been following this too closely.
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?Does he have a pen? Does he have a phone?
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.
Well said and I totally agree. I'm not advocating publicly disregarding the law, but finding ways to legally make it work.
And I did not vote for Cuomo. A lot it helped to get a different lawmaker elected...
Who signs bills into law in NYS?Banning camps wasn't signed into law.
True, the law is the law. However, there is a loophole in the law.
Just like a good accountant and making your corporate entities set up in a certain way can help you avoid taxes; so too, a good lawyer can find a loophole in a law that can make you compliant with law.
Is it the best way to approach it? Certainly not.
Do some feel that with their backs against the wall they are willing to do what it takes , even if it toes the line of the law? Yes.
Interpretation of law and ways around them is how many lawyers make their parnossah. It is not always popular but can be legal. That is why the rich pay less in taxes in proportion to income. Exploiting the loopholes. It was just never necessary to be done for camp or the like.
Banning camps wasn't signed into law.
As long as "finding ways to legally make it work" doesn't mean lying, then we're in agreement.
I think that if the communities used this as a teachable moment for the at-risk youth (and the general public, as well) about the value of civic engagement, both on the community level and with regards to local and state government, it would be a lot more productive and beneficial than railing against the establishment and perceived injustices. There's a lot of talk in our communities about how others only complain and march and do not take the initiative to lift themselves up and better their situation. We should learn from what we preach, rather than from what others do.
All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.
All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.Brilliant! You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers.Or move to a swing state.
Or move to a swing state.Dan, be honest, if you hadn't grown up in Cleveland would you move to Ohio? ;)
Or move to a swing state.
Brilliant! You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.
Instead of "How can we find an interpretation of the law that will allow sleepover camps", the more useful question might be "How can we find meaningful activities for thousands of frum teens who now have nowhere to go".
Look, the anti- sleepaway and the pro people will each remain in their respective camps ;) - pun intended- no matter what the other side says, as each one has their own agenda to back up. That's what politics is all about after all ;D.I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.Can you blame the kids for wanting to disobey these leaders? I would go off that derech too
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.
Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.
For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.
You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.
https://hamodia.com/2020/06/25/nys-dept-health-sends-letter-camp-operators/
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.Why are you so obsessed with the law?
I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.
78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option
It's clearly not a religious requirement. And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.
If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination. Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.
When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.
That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.
For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick. It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.
Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.
For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.
You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.
@biobook a famous gadol said "you'll see more walking down the street in NYC then your grandmother saw in her entire lifetime on the shtetl"https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675
Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Not taking a side on the camp issue just pointing out the flawed logic.
Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick. It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.
What we need is not rehab, nursing homes, and camps, but rather methods to care for drug abusers, elderly, and children. Those methods that worked for a few years in the recent past are certainly not the only ones imaginable.
Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Every thread was crying and whining the shuls were closed. Now we moved on to camps. What is next mikvahs?
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675
How many breakouts of the virus have you heard of amongst childrens' homes or in schools that are currently open (and yes there are many with thousands in attendance, no masks, but let's not get into that argument)? I didn't hear of any.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fifth-coronavirus-case-reported-at-jcc-posnack-summer-camp-in-broward/ar-BB15Vj3V
Why are you so obsessed with the law?
Do you only cross at a crosswalk? Or you just cross at your convenience when it’s safe?
When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?Nuance?
How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?
And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.
Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so. Coming out with a hard and strong ban was and is uncalled for. There is not a single other state that is going to such lengths to make sure camp doesn't happen by hook or by crook. It's just downright wrong to do this to people.
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people. And all the health protocols that camps promised to abide by have already been discussed here ad nauseam.
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?Yes! Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.
And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.
Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so.What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people.Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so. Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?No I’m not.
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law . If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.J walking is usually on public street ::)
The bottom line is that parents of teens understand the mental health crisis facing their children and the need for camp.Can you try and explain a little bit. Never thought of camp that way.
Never thought of camp that way.
Exactly.Substance abuser - check
And you won't understand so I'm not going to bother getting all emotionally worked up about it.
Ever had a substance abuser in your home? An abusive spouse? A sexual abuser? A mentally unstable family member? Alcoholic? Having teens locked up in your house for the last 3 months can feel like all of the above. And the only thing that kept many of these kids going was the hope that camps would open. You can't begin to fathom the mental health crisis that's happening in all these families that have teens. Speak to any high school principal. Speak to mental health professionals. Its real.
Again, if you're not experiencing it yourself, you won't understand. Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. But trust us - its real!
Yes! Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.
No one is suggesting that camps be disbanded. Just not used for overnight camps this year, because the medical situation warrants it.What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so. Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675Ot but great point. May I add that less affluent neighborhoods are better regardless of the city?
What is this sense of entitlement based on? Who gets to do whatever they choose to?
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.
If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
https://matzav.com/read-it-here-ny-department-of-health-releases-update-on-sleepaway-camps/
seemingly they got wind of some of the loopholes and are trying to close them
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?
If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important.
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.In Israel things are getting worse, IN NY things are as good as can be, covid was officially nullified
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable to accuse them of negius!
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?I dont understand the relevance.
The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable to accuse them of negius!
They probably read DDF.There is a pothole in front of my house. Can you fill it in?
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).I agree with very little that you write in this forum, but this post is spot on
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
And I agree with most of what you write especially here in support of camp ;D. You hit the nail on the head on this one. Why are we stuck on what was going on a few months ago when the reality now is completely different?You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.
These people who are so busy defending this ban on camps for sure did not have businesses that were forced to be shut for months nor do they have large families with children out of school for months as well. For those of us that do, that, coupled with a total different reality than that of a few months ago, puts us in a completely different frame of thought.
Come next Tuesday after the hearing will be like Color War here. If the TRO is denied I can see those supporting the ban cheering loudly and vice vs if the TRO is granted (myself among those 8))
You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.
I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp also has risks and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?FTFY
I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp is definitely riskier and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.I can use Artscroll on this one.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt. plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
I have heard a number of US camp "askanim" who have positions in the ruchmius side of camps (camp rav, learning director...) who have made statements that the way I understand them may be borderline kefira (the mashmaus of one of the statements was: If Hashem doesn't make a ness and allow the the camps to open, He doesn't know what he is doing.)
The Rabbanim who won't wear a mask because "It doesn't look good"???? (personal direct knowledge of one - who I will not name, and rumors of others)
Sorry, there is such a thing of negius, and unless a person has worked very hard to eradicate it, it will influence his decisions. Becoming an askan or getting smicha does not remove ones propensity for negius.
Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.
What the hell happened to us?
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "
Wrong.
Talk for yourself.
We sure do trust all of the above and more. Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important. They are in consultation with doctors and medical experts to run those camps according to the highest standards possible from that perspective.
Do you see our community rioting, looting, shooting, burning, and what-not over this ban??? We are absolutely NOT doing whatever we want to get what we want.
The governor here has become a dictator. Wake up and smell the coffee.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built or is part of a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a Askan who is also an overgrown teenager.
I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
@yfr bachur wow! We can all applaud you for the effort put into compiling that post!+1 @yfr bachur for a great post :). Thanks for all that clarification.
I would just like to point everyones attention to a recent ruling by a NY Court ruling the restrictions to be hypocritical so keep in mind the governor has Negius too (or more so- this is his career on the line)
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?
What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?
There's a beginning and ending date but the parents leave that part blank- I'm assuming the camp fills it in after.I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....
I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....
One point in favor of daycamps is that children are mingling with those from the same community as them. So their parents would meet in the grocery/pharmacy/park/whatever anyways. As opposed to sleepaway camps where you are mixing kids from all over and then sending them back home to spread whatever germs they picked up to a whole bunch of communities.They wouldn't be leaving camp from 4 to 8 weeks.
Not that I'm saying it's a good enough reason to cancel, but it's the only thing I thought of.
Oh and kids sleeping on top of each other may spread more germs, I don't know
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.I doubt you need to worry about CS, any social worker would conclude that the healthiest place to send the kid to is home with his parents. And this is only on the small chance they seem it unsafe. But yes, it could open the door to a host of issues (specifically if later down the road can this be used to gain custiodianship)
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.
Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.
a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
b) My understanding is that as long as there are living parents, guardianship does not grant the camp custody, and parents do not relinquish their rights to the child.
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt. plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.
The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.
However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.
Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).
Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.
ETA: very nice summary @ExGingi
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.
What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Just curious, how old are the kids that they would be signing over for?
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.Nuance, please. If you’re point is that people are stupid, I won’t argue. If your point is that you’re right to throw out medical knowledge and rely on your instincts based on your faulty understanding of what’s going on, then
The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols - though that too seems to be a theory, rather than absolute knowledge), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.
However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.
Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).
Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
Turns out, the doctors’ personal beliefs have been and still are completely irrelevant to the advice they’re giving.
A doctors personal beliefs, particularly the beliefs of a policy setting doctor very much affect their advice.You mean that when those doctors that signed a letter that protests are ok, had their personal beliefs affect their advise?? I thought for sure it was purely medical professionalism. ???
Maybe you meant to say beliefs dont effect the actual treatment?
This is why Chayim Aruchim and other organizations are so important.
1) Government and doctors are *not* the same. This seems to need repeating, so just repeat that a few times to yourself.That is incorrect! Doctors are being "guided" by the CDC which is a highly politicized government organization. In fact, my doctor told me one thing over the tele-medicine appointment (when what he says can get him in trouble) and then told his shul something entirely different.
That is incorrect! Doctors are being "guided" by the CDC which is a highly politicized government organization. In fact, my doctor told me one thing over the tele-medicine appointment (when what he says can get him in trouble) and then told his shul something entirely different.And here’s your proof. Exactly my point. You can get an honest opinion from your doctor if you (or your Shul) ask. They don’t really care what the CDC says.
And here’s your proof. Exactly my point. You can get an honest opinion from your doctor if you (or your Shul) ask. They don’t really care what the CDC says.What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?
What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?You should find a new one.
You should find a new one.new doctor or new shul?
What if my Dr. doesn't daven in my shul or dosen't pray at all?
new doctor or new shul?Neither. Doctor who does pray.
I don't understand why people wouldn't dream of using an accountant they don't trust, but anyone with an MD after their name will do for medical issues.Trust means davening in their shul?
Trust means davening in their shul?
Huh? I was questioning the premise of the question. If either of those things are important to you (ie. davening in your shul or praying at all), then why would you be seeing someone who doesn't fit that criteria?One of us is not following the conversation.
And to that end, @yungermanchik probably shouldn't be seeing a doctor who gives medical advice he doesn't believe in. That doctor needs to be called out.Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.
One of us is not following the conversation. Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.Don’t all professionals have that? Why do you feel doctors specifically are more likely to have their views clouded by fear of a lawsuit? Do you consistently question your doctor’s advice because you think he doesn’t have your best interests at heart?
Don’t all professionals have that? Why do you feel doctors specifically are more likely to have their views clouded by fear of a lawsuit? Do you consistently question your doctor’s advice because you think he doesn’t have your best interests at heart?I can't think of any profession with anywhere near the risk a Dr has for a malpractice lawsuit.
One of us is not following the conversation.
Doctors do this all the time, it's called CYA.
Any updates on the TRO?
Wasn't Cuomo supposed to file a response by Friday afternoon?
Response was due at 12 today, IINM.
Any way we can see the text of that response?
Ten cents a page on PACER, up to $3.00 for the document.None of the news bought it?
FWIW, there are many accountants who do taxes in the most square way for CYA purposes, as well. They don't get a lot of business from our communities.-1000
What does CYA stand for?Be Exceedingly Careful ;)
What does CYA stand for?
How do Cuomo & Co. rationalize that day camps are safer than overnight camps? Instead of camp being isolated, we have the same hundreds of kids going to camp daily, then returning home at night to their families (instead of staying on campus). I truly don't see how from a medical and scientific perspective this makes any sense.What you say does make sense to me, and I had also expected that day camps would be considered more dangerous. But the risk depends on both the frequency and duration of contacts, and duration may be more critical. If a single infected camper or counselor goes to sleep for 8 hours in a room with ten others, they all may be infected by morning.
Cover Your Assets.Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"
Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"Pictures or it didn't happen. No way you're serious
Insurance company in Passaic sponsored towels in the mik, "_______ Insurance, we have your assets covered"
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum? Why are inappropriate jokes allowed?Define inappropriate
Define inappropriateAlso define family friendly. Some of the "debates" here devolve into something quite ugly.
TEXT ORDER : With respect to any request made by the public to access the hearing scheduled for June 30, 2020 via Skype for Business, in civil cases, the public may access the hearing by viewing the video proceeding in a designated area of the U.S. Courthouse in Syracuse, New York or Albany, New York, upon request, and MAY NOT record any part of the hearing. Judicial Conference policy generally prohibits the broadcasting of proceedings in federal trial courts (JCUS-SEP 94, pp. 46-47; Guide to Judiciary Policy, Vol. 10, Ch. 4). The Executive Committee of the Judicial Conference, however, has approved a temporary exception to the policy to allow a judge to authorize the use of viewing the video proceeding in a designated area of the the U.S. Courthouse to provide the public and the media audio access to court proceedings. SO ORDERED by Chief Judge Glenn T. Suddaby on 6/29/2020. (sal) (Entered: 06/29/2020)
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum?So is Ami.
Okay, maybe I'm naive, but isn't this forum a family-friendly forum? Why are inappropriate jokes allowed?
Cover Your Assets.
It's a game my family loves to play.
If you want to watch the proceedings before Judge Suddaby at 10:00 AM today, you need to take a drive up to Syracuse:
Why are certain people allowed to watch them from home and some need to drive jp?
He said he's not issuing a ruling today, per Kol Haolam.
Don't know yet what happened before Judge Suddaby today, but the AG's office has ordered the transcript as an overnight job, which often (but not always) means that there was an adverse ruling that they would want to appeal.
Why not? Would love to hear an update on today's hearing...
fake news as of now
There is unfortunately misinformation being spread on WhatsApp. It is incorrect & wrong. Yesterdays submission from the State is being used to spread this incorrect information. We will know a conclusion when the court issues one. As of 1:15pm Thursday there is still no ruling.
— Chaskel Bennett (@ChaskelBennett) July 2, 2020
NEW YORK: We deleted a tweet since it contained mistaken info. The judge is expected to issue a ruling by today on the restraining order to allow overnight camps in NY.
— KolHaolam (@KolHaolam) July 2, 2020
NEW YORK: We deleted a tweet since it contained mistaken info. The judge is expected to issue a ruling by today on the restraining order to allow overnight camps in NY.
— KolHaolam (@KolHaolam) July 2, 2020
So it seems that the ruling isn't coming out today as expected. With tomorrow being a holiday, is it still possible for the judge to issue his ruling before Shabbos, or is that against protocol when courthouses are closed?I don't know the protocol, but the judge knows that this is very time sensitive, so I imagine he'll issue his decision on the injunction before Shabbos.
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240https://www.amazon.com/NoCampThisYear
thanks to gov cuomo
https://www.amazon.com/NoCampThisYearWhat happened to the Lenox situation?
oops runtime error 404 not found.........
What happened to the Lenox situation?Issues with the local Government
I don't know the protocol, but the judge knows that this is very time sensitive, so I imagine he'll issue his decision on the injunction before Shabbos.Like you thought he'd do 10 days ago?
Like you thought he'd do 10 days ago?IIRC, he denied requests for extensions, citing the sensitivity to time.
IIRC, he denied requests for extensions, citing the sensitivity to time.Selective memory. He granted the State's first extension request (although by less days than they requested).
Issues with the local GovernmentAny chances of it getting resolved?
Any chances of it getting resolved?Camp stolin was just banned from opening up in MA.
Camp stolin was just banned from opening up in MA.MA moved camps to phase 4
Issues with the local Government(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
How is there an option in MA when MA is the problem with the previous solution?Seems like a semantic difference to me - "campground" vs "sleepaway camp"
Seems like a semantic difference to me - "campground" vs "sleepaway camp"
He tested positive on his precamp test? Why was he allowed in before the results came back?Negative pre-camp
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
Any updates on the judge ruling on the TRO? Everyone assumed it would come out late Thursday. Now the judge had a long weekend for a time-sensitive issue, and still no ruling either way? I really feel for the camps to be kept in limbo for so long.
Would be nice if a ruling would be issued once and for all.
Any updates on the judge ruling on the TRO? Everyone assumed it would come out late Thursday. Now the judge had a long weekend for a time-sensitive issue, and still no ruling either way? I really feel for the camps to be kept in limbo for so long.
Honestly I also feel for the judge.I'm not understanding why his career would be over based on that. He works for the Federal government and has a lifetime appointment.
Seems he thinks the camps are right [as per his writings before the case], but knows that if he rules for them his career is over as the Dems rule NY one party.
Quite a pickle.
Honestly I also feel for the judge.
Seems he thinks the camps are right [as per his writings before the case], but knows that if he rules for them his career is over as the Dems rule NY one party.
Quite a pickle.
Would be nice if a ruling would be issued once and for all.one was. by the governor/state.
it will continue to be appealed until the camps get opened or rosh chodesh elul, whichever comes firstOr the Supreme Court declines to take the case.
As in their camp in the Catskills?Highland
Highland
TRO was deinedLink?
#BreakingNews: Federal Judge locks door on summer camp.
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) July 6, 2020
In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer.
Details to follow. pic.twitter.com/a9WZ5JzrcY
Link?
#BreakingNews: Federal Judge locks door on summer camp.
— Agudath Israel of America (@AgudahNews) July 6, 2020
In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer.
Details to follow. pic.twitter.com/a9WZ5JzrcY
Plaintiffs have provided no factual allegations or evidence to indicate that the fact that only Jewish overnight camps have continued to plan to open for the summer leads to the conclusion that Defendant’s executive orders have targeted the Jewish faith. To the contrary, it is undisputed that Defendant’s ban on overnight camps applies equally to all such camps, regardless of the camps’ religious (or secular) nature. The fact that Plaintiffs have maintained a hope and willingness to operate or send their children to overnight camps this summer longer than most persons involved with secular or non-Jewish overnight camps does not somehow turn Defendant’s facially neutral executive order into impermissible targeting.
Plaintiffs also argue that Defendant’s exemptions for activities such as day camps and childcare facilities are comparable conduct to overnight camps. Try as the Court might to sincerely understand Plaintiffs’ analogy, the Court must ultimately admit that Plaintiffs’ analogy is weak. Although day camps and childcare facilities have congregate settings, they are significantly more limited than those settings present in overnight camps. Day camps’ congregate settings are traditionally limited to the dining facility, where campers usuallycongretate for just one meal a day, as compared to overnight camps where campers traditionally congregate for three meals a day and then congregate again (this time with a smaller group) for approximately eight hours in an enclosed area, usually for weeks on end. By nature, day camps and childcare facilities provide less opportunity for the transmission of the COVID-19 virus simply because the individual attendees spend significantly less time with their fellow campers as compared to overnight camps. As the State argues, groups of individuals contained within a confined sleeping area each night runs contrary to the public health principals that have helped New York State substantially reduce the transmission of the COVID-19 virus.
Moreover, Defendant argues that overnight camps are uniquely situated as potential vectors for the spread of the COVID-19 virus because overnight camps pose a great risk not only within itself, but to the local communities as well. This is because, unlike day camps or childcare facilities, where travel by campers is necessarily limited to a reasonable distance due to the need for them to return home at the end of the day, overnight camps involve significant long-distance travel and an influx of people from multiple areas to a more remote location where those campers will become a part of the community, from a practical standpoint, for a significant period of time. This can create burdens on local resources that are not present with day camps or childcare facilities. For example, Defendant cites to the circumstances in Sullivan County, located in the Catskills region of New York State, where Defendant estimates that approximately sixty-two percent of the Jewish overnight camps are located. (Dkt. No. 25, Attach. 1, at ⁋⁋ 9-14.) According to Defendant, Sullivan County has only one hospital, with two locations throughout the entire county, in addition to ten Article 28 diagnostic treatment centers and hospital extension clinic sites. (Id. at 10, 13.) In total, Sullivan County has approximately 169 licensed beds, thirteen intensive-care-unit beds, and fifteen certified beds that can provide both acute and subacute rehabilitation services. (Id. at 11-12.) At oral argument, Plaintiffs explained that in a usual summer, approximately forty-two thousand campers attended approximately fifty to sixty Jewish overnight camps located in New York State. (Hearing Transcript.) Although a significant drop off in these numbers is expected due to a truncated summer and concerns over the COVID-19 virus (Hearing Transcript), should an outbreak occur at the camps, the situation could overrun the hospitals within Sullivan County and require hundreds of individual children to be quarantined at the individual camps, potentially hundreds of miles away from their families
In this case, Defendant’s executive orders bar all overnight camps from opening during the summer of 2020. Instead of explaining why Jewish overnight camps are being treated differently than are secular overnight camps, Plaintiffs (with all due respect) confuse Defendant’s public comments seemingly showing support for the rights implicated by the mass protests over the death of George Floyd with Defendant’s alleged disregard for religion in failing to grant a similar exemption to Jewish overnight camps. (Dkt. No. 7, Attach. 2, at 9-11.) Simply stated, the Court finds that permitting children to sleep in groups in enclosed spaces for eight hours per day in overnight camps is not sufficiently comparable to permitting conscious adults to shelter for shorter periods of time inside theater and museum lobbies during mass protests. For example, at the time of this writing, although many mass protestors appear to have been violating social distancing protocols by engaging in various outdoor protests, no evidence has emerged that protestors have been so often assembling in such close proximity in enclosed spaces for such a long period of time that reasonably compares to the way children typically sleep in cabins at overnight camp.
Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.
https://hamodia.acemlna.com/lt.php?s=3f7ebebfb9b1ba61a23fd051f1f35bbb&i=2442A2504A16A91209
Nothing new filed on the docket since Friday.
Keep in mind the old joke - the only difference between Hashem and a Federal District Court Judge is that Hashem does not think that he is a Federal District Court Judge.
I thought that trying to get a TRO was worth a shot, but the tweet that "Federal Judge locks door on summer camp. In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer" is just plain wrong.
Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.
This was absolutely not a public health decision IMHO. It was a totally political decision. If it would be public health decision they would have made the SAME EXACT decision for all those mass protests!!! But nooooooo, those get totally different standards applied...Give it a break!!!
Some language in this decision makes me cringe:Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.
Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit
They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)
Wonder if the final answer for the poll will end up being a fourth option: Yes first half (those who’ve already gone up) but no second (if they’re shut down ch”v)
Give it a break!!!
Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit
Excuse me? I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect yours. If you can't respect mine then you can opt out of this discussion.I didn't say I didn't respect your opinion. Back to your regular scheduled program.
Ouch. :'(Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
Double ouch... Unfortunately based on the Judge's stance it seems they have a real uphill battle using their current argument(s).
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at allThe downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
The downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
The downtrend of cases/deaths in NY and all the askanus involved, lot of camps really thought they would get the go ahead. In any case the camps that don't have political ties opened last week.
Not only this, but I think they were hoping that, because the Judge in the religious gatherings case had ruled against the governor pointing to the protests argument, that it would work here as well but alas this Judge didn't quite see it that way.
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
I told you so.40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
40k kids without a camp and that's your reaction? Very sad
Trying to talk to platinumguy is like trying to explain to whites what it means for blacks to experience racism. There's no one home. Don't bother.
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/coronavirus/ny-ban-sleep-away-camps-summer-due-covid-19/#comment-1480857Have or will you be sending your kids to camp?
Have or will you be sending your kids to camp?My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by @Barryg, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. The cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp. Seems like enrollment is way down, but we'll see if Barry wants to fill us in.
To personal of a question?
My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by a DDFer, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. But the cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp.Nice but 9 already? :)
My younger 3 kids are home.
Nice but 9 already? :)Jewish 9, english 8 :)
Very sad is putting it mildly. That's the understatement of the millennium.But officer....?
And just to be clear, I have zero skin in the game here. I'm not a camp owner or director, nor am I remotely related to one. Not even my kids are impacted by this decision with our camp having successfully moved to PA.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I just feel it was extremely unfair to come out with this ban in the name of public health after all that went on in NY (and all over the country) with the mass protests and doing nothing to stop THAT in the name of public health and safety. On the contrary, it was actively condoned by our governor (as well as mayor but he's irrelevant in this discussion anyway). Elected officials should not behave this way and have a double standard and I know I'm not the only one that feels that way.
My 9 year old son is in a sports focused day camp that is actually run by @Barryg, he would indeed go crazy being at home otherwise. They're not playing close-contact sports like basketball. The cost is a fraction of a sleepaway camp. Seems like enrollment is way down, but we'll see if Barry wants to fill us in.
My younger 3 kids are home.
But officer....?
Sounds like a great day camp! A 9 year old should not be at sleepaway camp either way so this is the right place for him. Everyone has a different threshold, but I wouldn't send below age 13.The fact that they are hypocrites has no bearing on the matter at hand.
Care to explain? Sorry, not quite following.
The fact that they are hypocrites has no bearing on the matter at hand.
(I can't believe you haven't seen the "but officer he was speeding too" analogy here)
Because it totally is not a comparison here so it wouldn't dawn on me to use that analogy.If you try to justify one action with another action that is wrong you get "but officer". Just clearing up the meaning.
(https://i.imgur.com/nxPhDJa.jpg)
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Dont believe any Israeli news.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Whats that got with here? In israel its a danger here it isn't, pretty simple.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
Whats that got with here? In israel its a danger here it isn't, pretty simple.
End of the article - At the outset of the pandemic, the Karliner Chassidim were noted as being among the most COVID-stringent in the entire country.That's when it was serious in NY and people were getting sick, which isn't the case now. M any case the only reason stolin didn't open like most other camps is because the rebbeh told them not to do anything illegal.
I am confused as Arutz Sheva had this story which indicated that in Israel, Karlin-Stolen are the most COVID machmir:Thats in regards to his chassdim in Israel since they are seeing a spike in cases. In America all restriction were lifted by the Rebba around 3 weeks ago.
Karlin-Stolin Rebbe orders all institutions in Israel closed
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/283162
That's when it was serious in NY and people were getting sick, which isn't the case now. M any case the only reason stolin didn't open like most other camps is because the rebbeh told them not to do anything illegal.The Rebba told them to go ahead and open yeste