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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 Discussion Board => Topic started by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:20:16 PM

Title: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:20:16 PM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 14, 2020, 11:21:42 PM
No your body still retain the ability to spool up again it's just no longer on red alert
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:22:22 PM
No your body still retain the ability to spool up again it's just no longer on red alert
Source?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 14, 2020, 11:25:31 PM
Source?
basic immunology (spoke to a Dr about this earlier this week) but I'll look up a source
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 14, 2020, 11:30:40 PM
While Dr Ditchek is a very respected dr he has been talking too much....

I think it's unnecessary fear...

Its likely faulty testing. The testing keeps on being updated and we know that some tests are showing false negetives.

Most doctors believe that you will stay immuned for some time.

He just wants people to still wear masks and not make minyanim so he is spreading these videos. He should go back to do his job. Some of his videos / messages were absolutely nuts.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yitz1000 on May 14, 2020, 11:32:41 PM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-what-antibody-tests-tell-us
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yaakov35 on May 14, 2020, 11:34:08 PM
While Dr Ditchek is a very respected dr he has been talking too much....

I think it's unnecessary fear...

Its likely faulty testing. The testing keeps on being updated and we know that some tests are showing false negetives.

Most doctors believe that you will stay immuned for some time.

He just wants people to still wear masks and not make minyanim so he is spreading these videos. He should go back to do his job. Some of his videos / messages were absolutely nuts.
Yup. Don't think he's even infectious disease specialist. When he says we have been seeing it definitely isn't in office. So not sure what his sources are but hard to take him seriously nonetheless
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 14, 2020, 11:34:38 PM
While Dr Ditchek is a very respected dr he has been talking too much....

I think it's unnecessary fear...

Its likely faulty testing. The testing keeps on being updated and we know that some tests are showing false negetives.

Most doctors believe that you will stay immuned for some time.

He just wants people to still wear masks and not make minyanim so he is spreading these videos. He should go back to do his job. Some of his videos / messages were absolutely nuts.

With all due respect, he has a degree to fall back on. You're just speculating with zero sources...

And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 14, 2020, 11:41:25 PM
A little amateur question. There was an article in zman a while ago about some guy who developed immunity to snake bites. He used to inject into himself a little venom, and his body would fight it and develop a cure for others who got bitten (they would inject some of his blood).
No idea how these things work - if it's any comparison or not, but wouldn't it make sense for those who have the antibodies for covid19, to keep on exposing themselves so their immune system keeps on fighting the virus?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:44:02 PM
A little amateur question. There was an article in zman
I stopped here.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:45:16 PM
basic immunology (spoke to a Dr about this earlier this week) but I'll look up a source
Don't believe that's correct. Other immunities show up in igG titers.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 14, 2020, 11:46:11 PM

Its likely faulty testing.
This is the best hope.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yaakov35 on May 14, 2020, 11:46:48 PM
I stopped here.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on May 14, 2020, 11:48:13 PM
Yup. Don't think he's even infectious disease specialist. When he says we have been seeing it definitely isn't in office. So not sure what his sources are but hard to take him seriously nonetheless
Yeah, for sure, you know better than all the doctors who are out there on the front lines. Are you anti-vaxxer, too?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yaakov35 on May 14, 2020, 11:52:51 PM
Yeah, for sure, you know better than all the doctors who are out there on the front lines. Are you anti-vaxxer, too?
Not sure what one has to do with the other. If your a real estate attorney, and start saying things about criminal law, nobody would question ur knowledge. Its simply not ur field.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on May 14, 2020, 11:53:39 PM
Not sure what one has to do with the other. If your a real estate attorney, and start saying things about criminal law, nobody would question ur knowledge. Its simply not ur field.
Yet, you deem yourself qualified.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yaakov35 on May 14, 2020, 11:54:21 PM
Yet, you deem yourself qualified.
I pointed out that this isn't his area of expertise. Nothing else
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on May 14, 2020, 11:57:00 PM
With all due respect, he has a degree to fall back on. You're just speculating with zero sources...

And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.
Degree not withstanding, I no longer believe a word he says. He's gone nuts.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: mgarfin on May 15, 2020, 12:00:23 AM

And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.

Bh we have Shuls in this thread too
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yitz1000 on May 15, 2020, 12:04:34 AM
I stopped here.
Turns out the guy was a mossad agent...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:06:13 AM
And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.
[/quote]

amateur response, but if you're getting on to that subject, imho, no one should use the internet or other public forum to denigrate the psak of rabbanim... (not those who are left or right of your view, if they are Gedolei Horaa and giving their daas Torah)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 12:08:29 AM
And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.


amateur response, but if you're getting on to that subject, imho, no one should use the internet or other public forum to denigrate the psak of rabbanim... (not those who are left or right of your view, if they are Gedolei Horaa and giving their daas Torah)
Do I have a thread for you...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 12:09:04 AM
Do I have a thread for you...
Only one? :)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 12:10:20 AM
And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.


amateur response, but if you're getting on to that subject, imho, no one should use the internet or other public forum to denigrate the psak of rabbanim... (not those who are left or right of your view, if they are Gedolei Horaa and giving their daas Torah)

I'm not sure what you're saying, but people shouldn't denigrate rabbanim online, offline, publicly, or privately. Not sure how my response got there.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yehudaa on May 15, 2020, 12:13:10 AM
Do I have a whole bunch of threads for you...
FTFY
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 12:21:33 AM
Degree not withstanding, I no longer believe a word he says. He's gone nuts.
Itís incredible, he overplayed his hand and now basically no one listens to him anymore.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Shmulie on May 15, 2020, 12:28:26 AM
Yup. Don't think he's even infectious disease specialist. When he says we have been seeing it definitely isn't in office. So not sure what his sources are but hard to take him seriously nonetheless

Nope he is a pediatrician and I believe he is also the medical director for Kids of Courage
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 12:46:54 AM
With all due respect, he has a degree to fall back on. You're just speculating with zero sources...

And btw... for all his crazy videos ranting about the shuls being open, he was right and probably saved a bunch of lives.
You're actually the one speculating that I'm speculating.

GIYF. Most experts are still saying that say they believe that immunity is going to last.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 12:50:44 AM
Yeah, for sure, you know better than all the doctors who are out there on the front lines. Are you anti-vaxxer, too?
Huh? Better than all Doctors? Who's taking about all doctors? Ditchek is actually not saying here what all doctors are saying.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 12:51:48 AM
You're actually the one speculating that I'm speculating.

GIYF. Most experts are still saying that say they believe that immunity is going to last.
The experts know there is immunity but donít want to say so until there is scientific certainty. Ditchek has no problem saying stuff with no certainty just to inspire panic.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yitz1000 on May 15, 2020, 12:56:25 AM
The experts know there is immunity but donít want to say so until there is scientific certainty. Ditchek has no problem saying stuff with no certainty just to inspire panic.
And I don't believe it's true that people are running for testing for curiosity as he says. It's primarily so they can donate and the number of donations has been tremendous.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ari3 on May 15, 2020, 12:56:55 AM
Huh? Better than all Doctors? Who's taking about all doctors? Ditchek is actually not saying here what all doctors are saying.
He is saying what all the doctors that certain people with selective hearing hear. There is a very loud minority of doctors that are saying you can't trust antibodies etc.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 12:57:59 AM
The experts know there is immunity but donít want to say so until there is scientific certainty. Ditchek has no problem saying stuff with no certainty just to inspire panic.
Exactly. And that's why he lost credibility by a lot of people.

Did anyone listen to the recording how he is screaming against purch minyanim? He had to call his rav Friday 2 minutes before the zman to complain about it. He is ranting about people davening on balconies.

Its sad enough that we had to close the shulls. Something which hasn't happened since ww2 in Europe. Yet some people got a kick out of it and just want to make sure that we shouldn't Daven with Minyen at all. Even when it's in compliance with local health guidelines. One of the examples where the cure is worse than the disease.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 01:00:42 AM
He is saying what all the doctors that certain people with selective hearing hear. There is a very loud minority of doctors that are saying you can't trust antibodies etc.
Can you repeat what you just said in simple English please?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ari3 on May 15, 2020, 01:04:29 AM
Can you repeat what you just said in simple English please?
There is a vocal minority of doctors that are advocating staying locked up forever because even though all viruses develop some level of immunity and even though there are no confirmed cases of anyone with antibodies getting reinfected you still never know and it is a ספק פיקוח נפש  etc etc.

There are also fearmongers (a number of them on DDF) that only hear these doctors
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ari3 on May 15, 2020, 01:08:44 AM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?
Back to the original question I think what needs to be studied is how these statistics compare to other viruses. Do antibodies drop like that with other viruses and when that happens do people lose immunity? Does that make a vaccine for those viruses hard?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 01:23:42 AM
Back to the original question I think what needs to be studied is how these statistics compare to other viruses. Do antibodies drop like that with other viruses and when that happens do people lose immunity? Does that make a vaccine for those viruses hard?
You can find many studies which support immunity for Coronavirus, just it hurts the narrative and they are therefore being ignored.
Title: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Euclid on May 15, 2020, 01:32:35 AM
The entire COVID-19 / Wuhan Novel Coronavirus Discussion board should just be merged into one thread. Every. Single. Thread. devolves.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chevron on May 15, 2020, 01:49:48 AM
Exactly. And that's why he lost credibility by a lot of people.

Did anyone listen to the recording how he is screaming against purch minyanim? He had to call his rav Friday 2 minutes before the zman to complain about it. He is ranting about people davening on balconies.

Its sad enough that we had to close the shulls. Something which hasn't happened since ww2 in Europe. Yet some people got a kick out of it and just want to make sure that we shouldn't Daven with Minyen at all. Even when it's in compliance with local health guidelines. One of the examples where the cure is worse than the disease.

When Rav Michel ber weismandel went running around Europe trying to save lives, people said he was crazy.

He died young from heartbreak.

A doctor is working all day every day, he puts his life in danger, he is beyond breaking point.

And some nudnik's come along assuming that "God looks after fools and idiots"

You bash the doctors, you ignore what they say, you get sick and sadly many die and the doctor cries and screams "ad Masai"

He cries for the dead person, he cries for the almanos, he cries for the yesomim.

I know because I talk to these doctors, I talk to their wives who stay up all night as their husband's work 18-20 hour day's, as they pray for their husbands and patient's.

I'm not saying I have the answers, I'm saying that din v'cheshbon is needed.

History will be your judge
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/health/coronavirus-antibody-prevalence.html?searchResultPosition=1

ďEven if the levels of antibodies fall over time to undetectable levels, people may still retain some protection from the coronavirus.

Immune cells called T cells are valuable soldiers in fighting pathogens, and at least one study has shown that the coronavirus provokes a strong response from these cells. So-called memory cells, or B cells, may also kick into gear when they encounter the coronavirus, churning out more antibodies.Ē
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 08:23:58 AM
When Rav Michel ber weismandel went running around Europe trying to save lives, people said he was crazy.

He died young from heartbreak.

A doctor is working all day every day, he puts his life in danger, he is beyond breaking point.

And some nudnik's come along assuming that "God looks after fools and idiots"

You bash the doctors, you ignore what they say, you get sick and sadly many die and the doctor cries and screams "ad Masai"

He cries for the dead person, he cries for the almanos, he cries for the yesomim.

I know because I talk to these doctors, I talk to their wives who stay up all night as their husband's work 18-20 hour day's, as they pray for their husbands and patient's.

I'm not saying I have the answers, I'm saying that din v'cheshbon is needed.

History will be your judge
Such a disgusting comparison.

A couple weeks ago this doctor spread a rumor that all the Jewish camps were told that they can not open and any camp that was charging you anyways was basically stealing. When confronted about it by camp owners he tried to lie and cover it up but it was very clear that he was caught in one huge lie which could have destroyed the parnassah that some people have spent their entire lives building.

He sent a whole voice note bashing the community of Lakewood for allowing backyard minyanim even though at that point they had only allowed porch minyanim. He even said that he spoke to a doctor who didnít want to allow such outdoor minyanim but the BMG rabbonim forced him to sign the letter.

He may be a doctor and Iím sure he is doing great work on that end but it doesnít give him the right to be motzei laaz on camp owners that they are just stealing parents money. It doesnít give him a right to send around a message bashing rabbonim for stuff that they didnít permit.

We donít bash the doctors, we bash people who so clearly have an agenda against other yidden.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: menachemd1 on May 15, 2020, 08:51:47 AM
A little amateur question. There was an article in zman a while ago about some guy who developed immunity to snake bites. He used to inject into himself a little venom, and his body would fight it and develop a cure for others who got bitten (they would inject some of his blood)
https://youtu.be/8q_m-rDUNw0
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 09:18:40 AM
Such a disgusting comparison.

A couple weeks ago this doctor spread a rumor that all the Jewish camps were told that they can not open and any camp that was charging you anyways was basically stealing. When confronted about it by camp owners he tried to lie and cover it up but it was very clear that he was caught in one huge lie which could have destroyed the parnassah that some people have spent their entire lives building.

He sent a whole voice note bashing the community of Lakewood for allowing backyard minyanim even though at that point they had only allowed porch minyanim. He even said that he spoke to a doctor who didnít want to allow such outdoor minyanim but the BMG rabbonim forced him to sign the letter.

He may be a doctor and Iím sure he is doing great work on that end but it doesnít give him the right to be motzei laaz on camp owners that they are just stealing parents money. It doesnít give him a right to send around a message bashing rabbonim for stuff that they didnít permit.

We donít bash the doctors, we bash people who so clearly have an agenda against other yidden.
This is rich coming from someone who has been downplaying this from day one.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:26:45 AM
This is rich coming from someone who has been downplaying this from day one.
Oh so Iím downplaying it and heís comparing it to the Holocaust. I think Iím much closer to reality then he is.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 09:27:06 AM
You're actually the one speculating that I'm speculating.

GIYF. Most experts are still saying that say they believe that immunity is going to last.

I don't think you know what the word means. Literally everything in your post was speculation. Anytime you write, "I think" or "it's likely" or speak about someone's personal motivations, all without a single source, that is the definition of speculation. Covering it with a "GIYF" doesn't cut it.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 09:28:54 AM
Can you repeat what you just said in simple English please?

This coming from someone who is telling people they can "get immuned" is something to behold.... I thought it was very clear. Wrong, but clear.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 09:32:04 AM
Oh so Iím downplaying it and heís comparing it to the Holocaust. I think Iím much closer to reality then he is.
Actually considering the small point that he compared it to and how many people died from attitudes like yours I would say that his overall post is much closer to reality.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on May 15, 2020, 09:35:57 AM
A little amateur question. There was an article in zman a while ago about some guy who developed immunity to snake bites. He used to inject into himself a little venom, and his body would fight it and develop a cure for others who got bitten (they would inject some of his blood).
No idea how these things work - if it's any comparison or not, but wouldn't it make sense for those who have the antibodies for covid19, to keep on exposing themselves so their immune system keeps on fighting the virus?

While my initial instinct was to stop where @Dan did, since the post wasn't too long, I actually speed read it. I don't know about using his blood as an anti venom for others, but there's definitely a YouTube video (from Vice IINM) about this guy who regularly injects himself with venom and claims it creates a very strong immune system.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 09:36:46 AM
There is a vocal minority of doctors that are advocating staying locked up forever because even though all viruses develop some level of immunity and even though there are no confirmed cases of anyone with antibodies getting reinfected you still never know and it is a ספק פיקוח נפש  etc etc.

There are also fearmongers (a number of them on DDF) that only hear these doctors

Literally no one has advocated to be shut down forever. There have been people advocating for stay-at-home measures to be in place a little longer to give science a little more time to figure out what this virus is.

I will be the first to say that I've been a very loud voice in that regard, and I can post links to 10 news stories from the past 4 days illustrating why. They won't be science articles, but ones about people. My stance isn't that there is no way to partially open the country safely if all the rules are followed. My stance is that people are stupid and the rules won't be followed. Packed flights, beaches, and bars tell me I'm right. Just wait until Memorial Day weekend.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:38:59 AM
Actually considering the small point that he compared it to and how many people died from attitudes like yours I would say that his overall post is much closer to reality.
You say that people have died from attitudes like mine. I disagree with you but youíre entitled

Plenty of people have died from panic as well. Cuomo sent all those COVID patients into nursing homes (which resulted in a good chunk of the 5000 nursing homes deaths in NYS) because he was basing it off some crazy models based on 15 year old code which projected that we would need 140k hospital beds. What was the max beds needed? 18k.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on May 15, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Literally no one has advocated to be shut down forever. There have been people advocating for stay-at-home measures to be in place a little longer to give science a little more time to figure out what this virus is.

I will be the first to say that I've been a very loud voice in that regard, and I can post count links to 10 news stories from the past 4 days illustrating why. They won't be science articles, but ones about people. My stance isn't that there is no way to partially open the country safely if all the rules are followed. My stance is that people are stupid and the rules won't be followed. Packed flights, beaches, and bars tell me I'm right. Just wait until Memorial Day weekend.

What I donít understand is why the American brain is so binary. Why does it have to be shelter-in-place lockdown <óóó> regular life with nothing in between?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:40:47 AM
What I donít understand is why the American brain is so binary. Why does it have to be shelter-in-place lockdown <óóó> regular life with nothing in between?
Because our country is so polarized politically and this has become a political issue. The right wants complete reopening and the left wants a shelter in place lockdown.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on May 15, 2020, 09:42:26 AM
Because our country is so polarized politically and this has become a political issue. The right wants complete reopening and the left wants a shelter in place lockdown.

So people will risk their lives because of polarized politics?

This sounds to me like another symptom of the devolution of the Great American Machine (not a reference to any specific presidential campaign).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:43:30 AM
So people will risk their lives because of polarized politics?

This sounds to me like another symptom of the devolution of the Great American Machine (not a reference to any specific presidential campaign).
Of course it is. The second this became political any chance our country had of a real recovery went out the window.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 09:45:07 AM
Because our country is so polarized politically and this has become a political issue. The right wants complete reopening and the left wants a shelter in place lockdown.
Dunno, but very few would call me left.
I also don't think it should be complete lockdown, but from from the way some here make it you would never know.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:46:35 AM
Dunno, but very few would call me left.
You donít think there is a middle ground between pre COVID 19 days and complete lockdowns that we have now?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 15, 2020, 09:47:29 AM
Literally no one has advocated to be shut down forever. There have been people advocating for stay-at-home measures to be in place a little longer to give science a little more time to figure out what this virus is.


Agree, no one is saying for forever, it seems like the longest people are saying now, is until the elections are over or until very last person is totally dependent on the government, which comes first
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
There is a vocal minority of doctors that are advocating staying locked up forever because even though all viruses develop some level of immunity and even though there are no confirmed cases of anyone with antibodies getting reinfected you still never know and it is a ספק פיקוח נפש  etc etc.

There are also fearmongers (a number of them on DDF) that only hear these doctors
Please quote a doctor or DDF member who advocates staying locked up forever. Iíll wait.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 09:48:11 AM
You donít think there is a middle ground between pre COVID 19 days and complete lockdowns that we have now?
I do -.-but any time anyone expresses any skepticism at all about any individual item being unwise you and others say they are only happy with complete lockdown.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 15, 2020, 09:52:10 AM
Please quote a doctor or DDF member who advocates staying locked up forever. Iíll wait.
@ari3 pls donít say any names. Might cause lashon hara issues. Weíve had people here accuse Doctors of going senile.... might be lifnei iver
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 09:56:18 AM
Because our country is so polarized politically and this has become a political issue. The right wants complete reopening and the left wants a shelter in place lockdown.
I donít know about right or left, I want neither of these. Iíve seen few posters calling for either of these, Iíd say a majority of people are in between. Certainly Iíve seen more posters on here call for complete reopening than total extended shutdown, but I think anyone who calls for total reopening is absolutely bonkers. Would you describe me as right or left?

Teaser: I voted for Trump in the primaries, although I didnít vote Election Day 2016.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 09:56:40 AM
Agree, no one is saying for forever, it seems like the longest people are saying now, is until the elections are over or until very last person is totally dependent on the government, which comes first

Source?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
I donít know about right or left, I want neither of these. Iíve seen few posters calling for either of these, Iíd say a majority of people are in between. Certainly Iíve seen more posters on here call for complete reopening than total extended shutdown, but I think anyone who calls for total reopening is absolutely bonkers. Would you describe me as right or left?

Teaser: I voted for Trump in the primaries, although I didnít vote Election Day 2016.
I am not really referring to DDF, if you look at polling it is very clear that there is a huge split. CNN released a poll yesterday which said that 50 percent of republicans wouldnít go and get vaccinated if a vaccine was available at low cost.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:01:47 AM
You donít think there is a middle ground between pre COVID 19 days and complete lockdowns that we have now?

Florida is packed with tourists right now. They had to close the beaches in Naples because they were slammed with zero social distancing, and 99% of the people were from out of town. In NY, even with stay-at-home measures, the subways are packed with less than 2/3 of the people wearing masks or gloves. There are stories in nearly every state of gross violations of SD, both with and without stay-at-home orders.

There is a middle ground. Show me Americans who have proved they can actually stay in that middle ground, and I'll jump on board with a partial reopening.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 10:03:37 AM
I am not really referring to DDF, if you look at polling it is very clear that there is a huge split. CNN released a poll yesterday which said that 50 percent of republicans wouldnít go and get vaccinated if a vaccine was available at low cost.
Whereís this, can you post a link? If thatís true then this is even more political than I thought, and thatís really not good for the USA long term. What in G-ds green earth is political about that???
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:05:25 AM
Florida is packed with tourists right now. They had to close the beaches in Naples because they were slammed with zero social distancing, and 99% of the people were from out of town. In NY, even with stay-at-home measures, the subways are packed with less than 2/3 of the people wearing masks or gloves. There are stories in nearly every state of gross violations of SD, both with and without stay-at-home orders.

There is a middle ground. Show me Americans who have proved they can actually stay in that middle ground, and I'll jump on board with a partial reopening.
Georgia has now been opened for almost three weeks and we have seen a continued decline in every single metric.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 10:05:48 AM
Literally no one has advocated to be shut down forever. There have been people advocating for stay-at-home measures to be in place a little longer to give science a little more time to figure out what this virus is.
Which government has said that any measures will be for 'just a little longer'? They keep pushing things off and off without any definite information...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
What I donít understand is why the American brain is so binary. Why does it have to be shelter-in-place lockdown <óóó> regular life with nothing in between?

Some of it is binary, but think there's a missing component. There are just people who aren't taking the whole thing seriously, regardless of medical or governmental guidelines. My neighbor is a 60+y/o accountant, married to a former pediatric ER doctor. She tells me the only reason she's taking any precautions is because her husband was relating some of his ER experiences with vents. Other than that, she only knows what she sees on the news. If it's not real to this highly educated, upper middle-class woman, who is higher risk, how do you expect the average American to get it?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 10:09:31 AM
Georgia has now been opened for almost three weeks and we have seen a continued decline in every single metric.
I hope this stays this way. If you are using it as a source for us to base our decisions on to ease restrictions (which is reasonable), will you agree that if cases start to increase sharply there we should also use it as a source to enforce tighter restrictions?

There are many reasons there is room to hope it does stay down, including testing capacity, weather, keeping the elderly inside, etc. and it can be used as another point of reference for everyone else.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Georgia has now been opened for almost three weeks and we have seen a continued decline in every single metric.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/coronavirus-cases-georgia-florida-continue-153633256.html

Iím a strong believer in reopening but itís hard to believe that there is zero impact from reopening. 3 weeks is still too early considering the incubation period and testing lag so I would give it another couple weeks before taking the numbers at face value.

It was always anticipated that there would be some increases in numbers upon reopening in places that havenít reached herd immunity, just that it would be an acceptable number when weighed vs. the alternative.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 10:25:40 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/coronavirus-cases-georgia-florida-continue-153633256.html

Iím a strong believer in reopening but itís hard to believe that there is zero impact from reopening. 3 weeks is still too early considering the incubation period and testing lag so I would give it another couple weeks before taking the numbers at face value.

It was always anticipated that there would be some increases in numbers upon reopening in places that havenít reached herd immunity, just that it would be an acceptable number when weighed vs. the alternative.
I agree with you,  but of course if the numbers go from 15 to 0 that would be an acceptable alternative ;)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:28:48 AM
I hope this stays this way. If you are using it as a source for us to base our decisions on to ease restrictions (which is reasonable), will you agree that if cases start to increase sharply there we should also use it as a source to enforce tighter restrictions?

There are many reasons there is room to hope it does stay down, including testing capacity, weather, keeping the elderly inside, etc. and it can be used as another point of reference for everyone else.
Oh of course. I do think that the NY plan to reopening is a very safe plan (even though I think NYC is pretty close to herd immunity).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:30:02 AM
Which government has said that any measures will be for 'just a little longer'? They keep pushing things off and off without any definite information...

They keep saying "a little bit longer" and then pushing the dates off. And most have started to come out with guidelines for reopening, as well as benchmarks that need to be reached before that happens. I'm not saying they are all doing a stellar job or that there aren't political factors coming into play, but no one has advocated for a long-term shutdown. Let's remember one thing: we're at most 2 months into stay-at-home measures. Let's stop pretending this has been going on forever.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:34:30 AM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:34:41 AM
Oh of course. I do think that the NY plan to reopening is a very safe plan (even though I think NYC is pretty close to herd immunity).

See, when people say things like this it makes me want to lock everything down even more.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
And most have started to come out with guidelines for reopening, as well as benchmarks that need to be reached before that happens.
realistic ones?
we're at most 2 weeks into stay-at-home measures.
What does that mean?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:36:02 AM
realistic ones?What does that mean?

Sorry, meant months. Typo. Edited.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:37:09 AM
See, when people say things like this it makes me want to lock everything down even more.
Itís not like there arenít studies that say that 30 percent infection is a very plausible threshold for herd immunity for this virus.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 10:38:34 AM
Sorry, meant months. Typo. Edited.
NP. I'm not saying that what people are doing is right. Just explaining why they are fed up.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 10:38:43 AM
Itís not like there arenít studies that say that 30 percent infection is a very plausible threshold for herd immunity for this virus.
Source? And why would that be the case, if the R0 number is so high (which, if you assume a close to 30% infection rate in NY, it must be).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:40:43 AM
Source? And why would that be the case, if the R0 number is so high (which, if you assume a close to 30% infection rate in NY, it must be).
I meant NYC not NY.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.03085

Here is one of the studies. There are more I can find if you want
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:41:49 AM
realistic ones?

In most states, yes. In NJ, maybe not so much. And I get many DDFers are in NJ, so the view that this is endless and stupid is somewhat justified, based on how it affects them. But advocating for a complete reopening because you don't like the guidelines presented to you is a gross overreaction with potentially deadly consequences, IMO.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 10:44:28 AM
Itís not like there arenít studies that say that 30 percent infection is a very plausible threshold for herd immunity for this virus.

There is not a single decision maker who would stake their reputation on those studies. For every study that shows 30%, there are more that show higher thresholds. You can make life-or-death decisions on minority opinions...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
But advocating for a complete reopening because you don't like the guidelines presented to you is a gross overreaction with potentially deadly consequences, IMO.
I'm not saying that what people are doing is right. Just explaining why they are fed up.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 10:45:25 AM
I meant NYC not NY.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.03085

Here is one of the studies. There are more I can find if you want
Thanks for sharing, but do you realize youíre picking and choosing? That says that assuming an R0 number of 2.5, then herd immunity can possibly be reached at about 43%. Of course, if NYC is anywhere in the neighborhood of 43%, the R0 number must be closer to 6-7...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:45:29 AM
There is not a single decision maker who would stake their reputation on those studies.
Thatís why itís only my opinion :)

I am not advocating for any action on it.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Thanks for sharing, but do you realize youíre picking and choosing? That says that assuming an R0 number of 2.5, then herd immunity can possibly be reached at about 43%. Of course, if NYC is anywhere in the neighborhood of 43%, the R0 number must be closer to 6-7...
Oh my bad, there was a different study that said it was 30 percent not 43. Though I can only find the PDF and donít know how to upload it while on my phone.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: hr555 on May 15, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?

IGG levels always decline, but stay at an immune level long-term.
See graph
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on May 15, 2020, 10:54:45 AM
Literally no one has advocated to be shut down forever. There have been people advocating for stay-at-home measures to be in place a little longer to give science a little more time to figure out what this virus is.
First of all we have the Mayor of LA said at least another 3 months. Regardless most of them are smarter than to say so publicly, the fact that we're already 2 months in and we're still getting vague answers of when the lockdown will end is proof they want to continue as long as possible. We're way past the point of just a little longer.

Florida is packed with tourists right now. They had to close the beaches in Naples because they were slammed with zero social distancing, and 99% of the people were from out of town. In NY, even with stay-at-home measures, the subways are packed with less than 2/3 of the people wearing masks or gloves. There are stories in nearly every state of gross violations of SD, both with and without stay-at-home orders.

There is a middle ground. Show me Americans who have proved they can actually stay in that middle ground, and I'll jump on board with a partial reopening.
If so many people aren't listening, what is there to gain by continuing the lockdown? It's only hurting the people who are listening or are forced to keep their businesses shut, are we safer when we have thousands of people on the beach but the little mom and pop store can't have a single customer come in wearing gloves and a mask?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 10:59:11 AM
See, when people say things like this it makes me want to lock everything down even more.
Are you from NYC? In my community there definitely is some herd immunity. I'm not paskening if we should open or not based on that. Just saying what I believe the fact is.

In regards to what you're saying that no one wants lock down forever, certainly some people make it sound this way.

For example, Dr Fauci suggesting that it's good idea to continue to never shake anyone's hand. Comments like this is why people in the right are afraid that this is a never ending game..

Oh, congrats to ddf for taking a thread off topic once again...  ;)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 11:02:52 AM
IGG levels always decline, but POTENTIALLY stay at an immune level long-term.
See graph
FTFY
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 11:03:39 AM
In most states, yes. In NJ, maybe not so much. And I get many DDFers are in NJ, so the view that this is endless and stupid is somewhat justified, based on how it affects them. But advocating for a complete reopening because you don't like the guidelines presented to you is a gross overreaction with potentially deadly consequences, IMO.
https://matzav.com/goodness-schools-open-by-september-cuomo-says-hes-not-there-yet/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 15, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
IGG levels always decline, but stay at an immune level long-term.
See graph
That graph shows IgG staying in the blood, not dropping to nil as the Dr claimed.
Like I said, hopefully just faulty testing.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 11:06:11 AM
That graph shows IgG staying in the blood, not dropping to nil as the Dr claimed.
Like I said, hopefully just faulty testing.
He said fell below detectable levels...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 15, 2020, 11:06:47 AM
Are you from NYC? In my community there definitely is some herd immunity. I'm not paskening if we should open or not based on that. Just saying what I believe the fact is.

In regards to what you're saying that no one wants lock down forever, certainly some people make it sound this way.

For example, Dr Fauci suggesting that it's good idea to continue to never shake anyone's hand. Comments like this is why people in the right are afraid that this is a never ending game..

Oh, congrats to ddf for taking a thread off topic once again...  ;)
Wait, not shaking hands means there's no lockdown end game?

Shaking hands has always been a prime method of spreading germs. It's part of our culture, but that doesn't mean it's a sacred cow.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 11:07:40 AM
The question is what else will be included in the list of things we'll never go back to.

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 11:08:11 AM
Are you from NYC? In my community there definitely is some herd immunity.
Source? I have only seen numbers showing otherwise. Do you have any suppoting numbers?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 11:12:26 AM
Are you from NYC? In my community there definitely is some herd immunity.

I'm sorry, this is new to me. What is "some" herd immunity?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 15, 2020, 11:14:50 AM
https://matzav.com/goodness-schools-open-by-september-cuomo-says-hes-not-there-yet/

That's schools, in the context of new info about a Kawasaki outbreak. If he would have said anything else, he should have been shot on the spot.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Mootkim on May 15, 2020, 11:21:23 AM
And I don't believe it's true that people are running for testing for curiosity as he says. It's primarily so they can donate and the number of donations has been tremendous.
I know plenty of people who are running to take antibody tests for various other reasons and not to donate blood. Some people want to join the rest of the world in Orlando and only feel safe flying if they have antibodies. Many parents want to have their married children over already and drew the line to allow it if they had antibodies. In NY where nursing home employees are required to test twice weekly, they can be exempt from that if they are positive for antibodies.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ilherman on May 15, 2020, 11:38:09 AM
Source? I have only seen numbers showing otherwise. Do you have any suppoting numbers?
This has been discussed already a couple of weeks ago. Don't remember which thread. And I can only speak for my community. But in my shull, 80% of people have had the virus already by now. And I'm from BP. As I said I can talk for my community. Maybe outside of my circles it's different.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: flyingace on May 15, 2020, 11:43:18 AM
70% of staff in Bobov has antibodies.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yaakov35 on May 15, 2020, 11:45:20 AM
Good thing people on ddf don't make any of the decisions or we would all be screwed
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 11:45:39 AM
Huge antibody testing taking place in Lakewood this Sunday by Bikur Cholim in conjunction with Mayo. At least 3000 slots and they are maxed out.Many people I know signed up because they want to visit parents etc. and are waiting for antibody confirmation. Letís see what comes out next week.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 11:58:37 AM
Huge antibody testing taking place in Lakewood this Sunday by Bikur Cholim in conjunction with Mayo. At least 3000 slots and they are maxed out.Many people I know signed up because they want to visit parents etc. and are waiting for antibody confirmation. Letís see what comes out next week.

Bikur Cholim asked that people do not use this drive unless they are planning on donating plasma. If you just want to know if you have antibodies, you can go to Urgent Care in Todd Plaza, the results are quicker and it's covered by most insurances, but their test only tells you if you have antibodies. It does not tell you if you had covid19, and does not tell you how many antibodies you have. But still usefull if yo want to know if you can visit parents etc...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 12:00:34 PM
Huge antibody testing taking place in Lakewood this Sunday by Bikur Cholim in conjunction with Mayo. At least 3000 slots and they are maxed out.Many people I know signed up because they want to visit parents etc. and are waiting for antibody confirmation. Letís see what comes out next week.
Wait, they are checking antibodies to see if it's safe to visit their parents ???
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on May 15, 2020, 12:02:52 PM
But still usefull if yo want to know if you can visit parents etc...
Is it useful though? Is bikur cholim or the urgent care telling people that if they're positive for antibodies they can visit at-risk populations?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 12:04:17 PM
Bikur Cholim asked that people do not use this drive unless they are planning on donating plasma. If you just want to know if you have antibodies, you can go to Urgent Care in Todd Plaza, the results are quicker and it's covered by most insurances, but their test only tells you if you have antibodies. It does not tell you if you had covid19, and does not tell you how many antibodies you have. But still usefull if yo want to know if you can visit parents etc...
Is that test as accurate?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:09:01 PM
Is that test as accurate?
No. It's the FDA allowed but not approved test made by Abbott Labs
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 15, 2020, 12:09:37 PM
Lots of people I know say, theyíre for sure going to their parents for shavous, especially if the parents already had it
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 12:10:52 PM
Is it useful though? Is bikur cholim or the urgent care telling people that if they're positive for antibodies they can visit at-risk populations?
Iím sure they are not. They are doing it as part of an NIH study. Why people are going is a different reason.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 15, 2020, 12:12:19 PM
Iím sure they are not. They are doing it as part of an NIH study. Why people are going is a different reason.
The feeling I got was, they really just need everyone for the study but the only way to get people to show up was to also offer antibody testing
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: joeberg on May 15, 2020, 12:12:22 PM
Bikur Cholim asked that people do not use this drive unless they are planning on donating plasma. If you just want to know if you have antibodies, you can go to Urgent Care in Todd Plaza, the results are quicker and it's covered by most insurances, but their test only tells you if you have antibodies. It does not tell you if you had covid19, and does not tell you how many antibodies you have. But still usefull if yo want to know if you can visit parents etc...
Not true. The upcoming Sun. drive has nothing to do with plasma. It is for research purposes. Mayo clinic and NIH.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 12:13:02 PM
Lots of people I know say, theyíre for sure going to their parents for shavous, especially if the parents already had it

A few yard minyanim locally  are struggling this shabbos because people are going away for shabbos...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 15, 2020, 12:14:11 PM
A few yard minyanim locally  are struggling this shabbos because people are going away for shabbos...
Yup, had that issue last week. The oilam is burnt out of the whole social distancing thing
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:14:24 PM
Is it useful though? Is bikur cholim or the urgent care telling people that if they're positive for antibodies they can visit at-risk populations?
No, no one is saying that you can use the tests to visit grandparents. I was only replying to @Yard sale who wrote that people were going to the Bikur Cholim drive in order to know if they can visit grandparents.
The bikur cholim website has this disclaimer:

Disclaimer: If you take the test planning not to donate blood, or if you will use the results of the antibodies to determine if you can lower your social distancing, such as interacting with the elderly, this is dangerous and immoral, and can lead to more deaths in our community, r"l. The only purpose of undergoing this test is to see if you have blood that can help other stricken with COVID-19. Please do not use it for any other purpose.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on May 15, 2020, 12:19:58 PM
No, no one is saying that you can use the tests to visit grandparents. I was only replying to @Yard sale who wrote that people were going to the Bikur Cholim drive in order to know if they can visit grandparents.
The bikur cholim website has this disclaimer:

Disclaimer: If you take the test planning not to donate blood, or if you will use the results of the antibodies to determine if you can lower your social distancing, such as interacting with the elderly, this is dangerous and immoral, and can lead to more deaths in our community, r"l. The only purpose of undergoing this test is to see if you have blood that can help other stricken with COVID-19. Please do not use it for any other purpose.
Correct. This is my point. People are running to get the tested so they can say I'm positive for antibodies, I can do whatever I want. But I haven't heard of any doctor/scientist actually telling people that, and the testing places are telling people specifically not like that. Plenty are saying the assumption is you're immune, but find me someone currently actually giving that as practical medical advice. Perhaps there are local doctors telling their patients such a thing. I have no idea.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yard sale on May 15, 2020, 12:24:57 PM
No, no one is saying that you can use the tests to visit grandparents. I was only replying to @Yard sale who wrote that people were going to the Bikur Cholim drive in order to know if they can visit grandparents.
The bikur cholim website has this disclaimer:

Disclaimer: If you take the test planning not to donate blood, or if you will use the results of the antibodies to determine if you can lower your social distancing, such as interacting with the elderly, this is dangerous and immoral, and can lead to more deaths in our community, r"l. The only purpose of undergoing this test is to see if you have blood that can help other stricken with COVID-19. Please do not use it for any other purpose.

They have the disclaimer but they know full well what is motivating 3000 people to come. It isnít in the interest of science and donation a sample to the NIH, noble as the idea may be.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:29:14 PM
They have the disclaimer but they know full well what is motivating 3000 people to come. It isnít in the interest of science and donation a sample to the NIH, noble as the idea may be.

That's exactly why I replied to you. If that's your intention, then go to Urgent Care. Right now all 3000 slots for the Sunday drive are reserved, and there are many people who do want to donate plasma, but they can't sign up because people who may want the testing for other reasons are taking up the slots
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 15, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
There are two totally separate programs:
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 12:33:26 PM
Correct. This is my point. People are running to get the tested so they can say I'm positive for antibodies, I can do whatever I want. But I haven't heard of any doctor/scientist actually telling people that, and the testing places are telling people specifically not like that. Plenty are saying the assumption is you're immune, but find me someone currently actually giving that as practical medical advice. Perhaps there are local doctors telling their patients such a thing. I have no idea.
You can have anti-bodies and be secreting the virus.


Anyone using the anti-body test to determine if they are negative for covid are fooling themselves.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Mootkim on May 15, 2020, 12:37:06 PM
You can have anti-bodies and be secreting the virus.


Anyone using the anti-body test to determine if they are negative for covid are fooling themselves.
What about if that is accompanied by a negative test (nasal swab)?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 12:38:35 PM
What about if that is accompanied by a negative test (nasal swab)?
Current recommendation is 2 nasal swab tests 24 hours apart.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:42:18 PM
There are two totally separate programs:
  • Plasma drives. They run antibody tests to determine donor eligibility.
  • Research. They run an antibody test, plus provide a sample to NIH. Test also includes comprehensive questionnaire.

False.
It is one drive this Sunday:
"You will need to complete a 20 question survey. You will then receive an appointment slot to have 2 tubes of blood drawn on Sunday May 17. One specimen will be sent to the Mayo Clinic to test your antibodies. You will receive the result of this test. The other specimen will be submitted to the NIH to be used for extensive research and study in facilitating the historic developement. You will not receive these results"
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on May 15, 2020, 12:55:10 PM
False.
It is one drive this Sunday:
"You will need to complete a 20 question survey. You will then receive an appointment slot to have 2 tubes of blood drawn on Sunday May 17. One specimen will be sent to the Mayo Clinic to test your antibodies. You will receive the result of this test. The other specimen will be submitted to the NIH to be used for extensive research and study in facilitating the historic developement. You will not receive these results"

How does that contradict what I wrote?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: points 99 on May 15, 2020, 12:56:11 PM
How does that contradict what I wrote?
I'm sorry I misread your post. Thought you said there were 2 separate drives...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 15, 2020, 02:36:01 PM
That graph shows IgG staying in the blood, not dropping to nil as the Dr claimed.
Like I said, hopefully just faulty testing.
he never said nil he said no longer enough to be used for plasma donation you can still spool up quickly if you get it again but your plasma cant spool up quickly in someone elses body
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 15, 2020, 03:00:42 PM
he never said nil he said no longer enough to be used for plasma donation you can still spool up quickly if you get it again but your plasma cant spool up quickly in someone elses body
So it's good for immunity but not for plasma donation, which means that people who want plasma should do it asap (except that they might want to wait in case they don't have antibodies yet...)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 15, 2020, 03:10:07 PM
Correct (got this info confirmed from a few doctors)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chevron on May 15, 2020, 03:31:20 PM
Oh so Iím downplaying it and heís comparing it to the Holocaust. I think Iím much closer to reality then he is.

Well it's the best comparison I could think of. Where people were warned and ignored.

I just read that sailors on the ship got infected a second time.

What about that ? What if anti bodies or having had the virus means nothing ? And then you have to remember there are two types of the virus So what if you can get both?

What if we CV have another wave and another 2500 dead Jews? Will you then listen ?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Alexsei on May 15, 2020, 03:32:18 PM
I'm scheduled to donate plasma next week, in one appointment they'll test for antibodies, do a covid test, and take the plasma, if it is established that the antibodies are too low the plasma is destroyed...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 03:36:30 PM
he never said nil he said no longer enough to be used for plasma donation you can still POTENTIALLY spool up quickly if you get it again
FTFY
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: presidentialplus on May 15, 2020, 03:38:15 PM
You can have anti-bodies and be secreting the virus.


Anyone using the anti-body test to determine if they are negative for covid are fooling themselves.

Anything could be.........

But antibody are only developed a few weeks in to the virus.
If you could still be spreading the virus while having anti bodies then the virus is contagious for more then a month. Something nobody says.
You could test positive for weeks after the virus is gone. It's from dead cells.
 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 03:39:08 PM
Anything could be.........

But antibody are only developed a few weeks in to the virus.
If you could still be spreading the virus while having anti bodies then the virus is contagious for more then a month. Something nobody says.
You could test positive for weeks after the virus is gone. It's from dead cells.
 
Wrong.

Next...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 03:40:18 PM
Anything could be.........

But antibody are only developed a few weeks in to the virus.
If you could still be spreading the virus while having anti bodies then the virus is contagious for more then a month. Something nobody says.
You could test positive for weeks after the virus is gone. It's from dead cells.
 
Where was this confirmed? Last I checked it was a theory that many doctors were assuming (hoping?).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 03:56:58 PM
Well it's the best comparison I could think of. Where people were warned and ignored.

I just read that sailors on the ship got infected a second time.

What about that ? What if anti bodies or having had the virus means nothing ? And then you have to remember there are two types of the virus So what if you can get both?

What if we CV have another wave and another 2500 dead Jews? Will you then listen ?
Could you provide a source of this supposed reinfection of sailors?

It would be the first recorded reinfection.

You accuse me of not listening, I listen to doctors. But I will never listen to that unhinged doctor who has been proven wrong time and time again and has lied and tried to ruin peopleís lives just to try and get some attention.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 04:00:03 PM
Could you provide a source of this supposed reinfection of sailors?

It would be the first recorded reinfection.

You accuse me of not listening, I listen to doctors. But I will never listen to that unhinged doctor who has been proven wrong time and time again and has lied and tried to ruin peopleís lives just to try and get some attention.
Iíd also like to see that, and also proof that it was a reinfection not just continued infection. What did Ditchek get proven wrong about and lie about? He has seemed a bit over the top.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 04:05:23 PM
Iíd also like to see that, and also proof that it was a reinfection not just continued infection. What did Ditchek get proven wrong about and lie about? He has seemed a bit over the top.
He lied about how he knows the camps were told they arenít being allowed to reopen and made an insinuation that they are just lying so they could take your money.

I asked a couple doctors today and they told me that itís completely normal for antibody levels to drop after infection.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 04:06:56 PM
He lied about how he knows the camps were told they arenít being allowed to reopen and made an insinuation that they are just lying so they could take your money.

I asked a couple doctors today and they told me that itís completely normal for antibody levels to drop after infection.
Well, he could have been referring to Sullivan County officials who early on said they wouldnít allow it and one congressman sent a letter to Cuomo. They changed their tune later on.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 15, 2020, 04:07:34 PM
I asked a couple doctors today and they told me that itís completely normal for antibody levels to drop after infection.

Whatís with everyone having access to so many doctors? You and @chevron both. Jewish, I guess ;)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 15, 2020, 04:10:50 PM
Well, he could have been referring to Sullivan County officials who early on said they wouldnít allow it and one congressman sent a letter to Cuomo. They changed their tune later on.
He said very clearly that NYS has told the camps they are pulling the permits. He sent out a message trying to clarify but it was very clear that he got caught in a lie.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on May 15, 2020, 05:07:01 PM
That graph shows IgG staying in the blood, not dropping to nil as the Dr claimed.
Like I said, hopefully just faulty testing.
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

No your body still retain the ability to spool up again it's just no longer on red alert
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chevron on May 15, 2020, 05:17:59 PM
Could you provide a source of this supposed reinfection of sailors?

It would be the first recorded reinfection.

You accuse me of not listening, I listen to doctors. But I will never listen to that unhinged doctor who has been proven wrong time and time again and has lied and tried to ruin peopleís lives just to try and get some attention.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/15/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 15, 2020, 05:22:16 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/15/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/
real great source but either way
Quote
One U.S. official familiar with the situation on the ship said commanders donít know why this is happening but suggested it could be related to questions about testing accuracy. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, said that screening has been intensified on the ship. And, anyone who exhibits any flu-like symptoms at all is being tested and removed.

The sailors have been tested using the nasal swab. And in some cases the infection can be at such a low level that it is not detected by the test. Itís not clear whether cases like these are actual relapses, or if people tested negative without really being completely clear of the virus.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2020, 05:24:49 PM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/15/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/
I always knew you use the best and most up to date medical journals for your research.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 15, 2020, 05:36:01 PM
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

Thanks!
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
real great source but either way
I always knew you use the best and most up to date medical journals for your research.
https://apnews.com/0cae34376380ab4150002a58bd9934b9

Better?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 15, 2020, 06:05:07 PM
https://apnews.com/0cae34376380ab4150002a58bd9934b9

Better?
Confusing. Did they or did they not have 2 negative tests?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yesitsme on May 15, 2020, 06:09:26 PM
if i tested negative for AB means that I'll never know if I'm immune?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Eru Ilķvatar on May 15, 2020, 06:29:23 PM
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on May 15, 2020, 06:30:34 PM
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.

+1000

Armchair epidemiology is several orders of magnitude easier than armchair immunology.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on May 15, 2020, 06:34:03 PM
Thanks!
These are the posts that make DDF shine. I think @biobook has the most "posts with substance" ratio.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chevron on May 15, 2020, 06:40:14 PM
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.

I have never said that I know anything and I have quoted many great doctors who said that the more they understand about the virus the more they realize that they don't understand anything.

I haven't been trying to be a fear monger I'm trying to get people to just try to understand that we don't know what we're dealing with and we should be careful.

I'm making no attempt to scare people I'm making attempt to wake people up to various things or some of them known some of them unknown that's all
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: simple26 on May 17, 2020, 01:20:37 AM
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.
As you guys sound pretty knowledgeable maybe you can explain for the the simple guys what would prove immunity and why a lot of Doctors are saying it might take a long time to prove it
For example say its memory B cells you need canít someone be tested for their presence?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on May 18, 2020, 07:19:59 PM
Most of what I know about coronavirus I've learned through DD, so I'm sure there are many here more knowledgeable than me!  But I'll try to provide an answer of sorts to what I think you're asking, and perhaps others can correct it.

A test for B memory cells wouldn't necessarily get you the information you want, because, for example, one could have B memory cells that are physically present, but that are not functioning properly to produce sufficient antibodies.  What you really want is not to know your level of B cells or any of the other cells and molecules in the fascinating poster that Eru Ilķvatar posted, but rather to know whether you're immune to a second infection of coronavirus.  And rather than answering this by dissecting and analyzing all the components of your own immune system, it makes more sense to answer this for the general case:  Do humans develop immunity to this coronavirus after a first infection?

Answering this would take a long time, as the doctors have told you.  If you want to know whether people are immune for two months or 6 months or 1 year or 2 years after their first infection, then obviously you have to wait two months or 6 months or 1 year or 2 years to get your answer.   There are two ways to study this:

1. Experimental:  Take a group of people who have recovered from Covid-19, infect them with the virus, and watch them over the next two weeks to see whether or not they get sick with Covid-19 a second time.

This kind of deliberate infection research has been done in the past, most famously when Nazi doctors infected people with tuberculosis or typhoid, and took careful scientific notes as they watched the infected people get sicker and sicker and finally die.  The post-war trial that disclosed this research horrified the world, not because it was worse than other Nazi atrocities, but because it was conducted by doctors who had taken an oath to use their skills in healing.  In response, international and national guidelines were composed that now regulate research on human health. 

To do this sort of experiment today, researchers would first need to decide on the exact details of the protocol they will use, including:
What people will you test?  Males, females, or both?  Young, old, or both?  Those who had severe symptoms, mild symptoms, no symptoms, or all of these?  Those who were treated with particular medications?  Those who had tested positive for the virus only, for the antibody only, or both? Etc.
How will you infect them?  Inject them with the virus, or spray it on their face with a sneeze-machine?
Which virus will you use?  Several mutated versions are known to exist already. 
What dose of the virus will you use?  If nobody gets sick, you won't know whether that's because they're immune, or whether you used too small of a dose to cause disease.  If you use too large a dose, and people are not sufficiently immune, you might cause an especially severe disease response.
If people DO get sick after this second infection, how will you treat them?  There are ethical issues in infecting someone with a potentially fatal disease before we have clearly effective treatments.
How will you obtain informed consent?  This means that anyone who participates in the experiment has to agree that they are doing so voluntarily, and have been informed of what might happen to them as a result of this participation.  For example, they might have a slight reaction at the site of the injection, but not get sick beyond that.  That of course is what we're hoping for, and it certainly would be great if that's the result. It's also possible that immunity does not develop, and the people will develop Covid-19 a second time. That would be annoying to go through that again, but at least people know what they're getting into.  But there's a third possibility, which is that following the second infection they will have a worse reaction than the first time.  Perhaps their immune system was partially weakened the first time, and now they are less able to cope and develop a more severe case.  Perhaps they had slight unnoticeable changes to the blood vessels the first time, and with the second infection, they are more likely to develop clotting disorders.  As far as I know, these last possibilities just exist in my imagination, but the point is that the researchers would have to consider all the things that might go wrong, and notify the participants in the experiment of these in advance.

After the researchers have figured out all these and other details, they would have to send this protocol to a review board, which would discuss whether the experiment, as proposed, is ethical and whether it is likely to lead to significant findings.  They might ask for changes, or they might turn it down entirely.  Or they might approve it, at which time the researchers would start looking for people willing to be subjects in the experiment. 

There are probably researchers considering this sort of experiment, but the process above could take weeks or months, so the rest of us won't hear about it until they announce that they're looking for subjects. 

2. Observational.  The second way to determine immunity is to simply wait for people who've recovered from Covid-19 to leave home and lead more normal lives, during which time some of them will inevitable come in contact with the virus again.  People who get sick with Covid-19 will be asked about their previous infections and previous positive tests for the virus or antibodies, and researchers will be able to analyze how many, if any, of the new Covid-19 cases are in people who had an earlier confirmed Covid-19 infection.  If no new infections occur in those who've had confirmed Covid-19 in the past, then we can assume that a first infection causes immunity. 

Again, if those with previous infections don't get sick for two months, we'll only know that immunity lasts two months.  It will take longer to find out whether this immunity is longer-lasting.

This study will take longer than the previous one, because you have to wait for people to incidentally meet up with a virus somewhere, rather than infecting them deliberately all at once, but it can be started more quickly.  In fact, it's started already.  We've heard of a few cases in China and South Korea that suggested that a recovered patient had gotten sick a second time, and researchers there are trying to figure out exactly what that means. Is this really a second infection, or a continuation of the first?  Was the first infection really the flu? There will undoubtedly be more such cases in the US as people increase their social activity.

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on May 18, 2020, 07:29:30 PM
We've heard of a few cases in China and South Korea that suggested that a recovered patient had gotten sick a second time, and researchers there are trying to figure out exactly what that means. Is this really a second infection, or a continuation of the first?  Was the first infection really the flu? There will undoubtedly be more such cases in the US as people increase their social activity.
Or are they people whose bodies just don't produce lasting immunity?

Love your posts by the way!
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on May 18, 2020, 07:33:32 PM
Or are they people whose bodies just don't produce lasting immunity?

Love your posts by the way!
I thought someone posted an article here saying that the Korean cases were false positives or dead RNA or something like that.

+1!
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on May 18, 2020, 07:51:11 PM
Thanks, Dan!  Likewise!

Yes, those possibilities, and more (no immunity after the first infection, or the first infection was a false positive, etc.)

My point was only that when studying this experimentally, you can take 1000 people today, selected for having a particular prior experience, infect them in a controlled setting, and get a pretty clear-cut answer in a few weeks.

When you wait for people to become infected naturally, the new cases dribble in, one by one, each one with different prior experiences.  And each one has to be analyzed to figure out exactly what had been going on with them in the first and second infections, and so this will take much longer to get an answer.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: presidentialplus on May 19, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
Anything could be.........

But antibody are only developed a few weeks in to the virus.
If you could still be spreading the virus while having anti bodies then the virus is contagious for more then a month. Something nobody says.
You could test positive for weeks after the virus is gone. It's from dead cells.
 


Wrong.

Next...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/covid-patients-testing-positive-after-recovery-aren-t-infectious

Still Wrong?

Next?

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 19, 2020, 07:19:56 PM

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/covid-patients-testing-positive-after-recovery-aren-t-infectious

Still Wrong?

Next?


Where was this confirmed? Last I checked it was a theory that many doctors were assuming (hoping?).
Perhaps the theory was now confirmed :)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chevron on May 20, 2020, 01:27:57 AM
Thanks, Dan!  Likewise!

Yes, those possibilities, and more (no immunity after the first infection, or the first infection was a false positive, etc.)

My point was only that when studying this experimentally, you can take 1000 people today, selected for having a particular prior experience, infect them in a controlled setting, and get a pretty clear-cut answer in a few weeks.

When you wait for people to become infected naturally, the new cases dribble in, one by one, each one with different prior experiences.  And each one has to be analyzed to figure out exactly what had been going on with them in the first and second infections, and so this will take much longer to get an answer.

Right but as a friend told me, it's possible to have the virus multiple times in mild form, this would likely mean that the person didn't develop immunity to it ?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 20, 2020, 04:02:37 AM
Thanks, Dan!  Likewise!

Yes, those possibilities, and more (no immunity after the first infection, or the first infection was a false positive, etc.)

My point was only that when studying this experimentally, you can take 1000 people today, selected for having a particular prior experience, infect them in a controlled setting, and get a pretty clear-cut answer in a few weeks.

When you wait for people to become infected naturally, the new cases dribble in, one by one, each one with different prior experiences.  And each one has to be analyzed to figure out exactly what had been going on with them in the first and second infections, and so this will take much longer to get an answer.
To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a false positive PCR test. There may be an error in processing, but the test sees the physical virus so it cannot be false. It may have already been overcome by the immune system and no longer transmissible, and this can only be determined by plaque assay (to quantify plaque forming units) which is how the Korean study reached the conclusion the reinfected patients were not contagious.


Darpa funded research:

https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/risk-coronavirus-reinfection-remains-after-recovery


(If my understanding is correct, over 90% of the general population already has these antibodies, and the specific COVID tests are only detecting an elevated number, so there is less indication B cells have newly developed antibody production capabilities they can memorize)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on May 20, 2020, 01:28:37 PM
Thanks for this very interesting article! 

It does say that 90% of people have antibodies to coronavirus, but they mean the general class of coronavirus, not  the novel coronavirus that causes covid-19.   

The body fights infections by making antibodies that can neutralize a particular infectious agent, so each antibody is made to neutralize a very specific bacteria or virus. (In rare cases, an antibody may "cross-react" with something else, but we'll ignore that for now.)  So for the 4 different types of coronaviruses they studied, there were 4 different types of antibodies, each with a somewhat different structure.  These coronaviruses have been going around for years and cause typical cold symptoms, especially in children.  They did this study in 2016-2018, and apparently published it now because it might give us an indirect clue about what to expect for the novel coronavirus. 

Of 86 people who had a positive nasal swab test for one of those 4 coronaviruses, 12 had a second positive test for that same  coronavirus within the next year or so, indicating that they were re-infected.  One second positive test occurred just 4 weeks after the first, but most were 9-12 months later. 

So the bad news: This suggests that immunity to a coronavirus may last less than a year, so it's worrying that this might be true for the novel coronavirus, too. 

The more hopeful news:  Only 12 of the 86 (14%) people who got sick were reinfected, so perhaps immunity lasts longer for most people.  And re-infections occurred for only 3 of the 4 coronaviruses they looked at, so perhaps some coronaviruses produce a longer-lasting immune response.  Remember they only looked for about a year, so we don't know how long immunity lasts for that 4th coronavirus they studied.  But it at least raises hope that the novel coronavirus might produce longer-lasting immunity.

The somewhat-good news:  In their records of the cold-symptoms people reported over this time, they found that people who got sick twice had similar symptoms both times.  If they had a mild cold the first time, they had a mild cold the second time.  If they had a severe cold the first time, they had a severe cold the second time.  Interestingly, those who were asymptomatic with the first infection, were asymptomatic with the second infection.  So it's reassuring to hear that the re-infection did not cause worse symptoms the second time around.  And if we extrapolate to the novel coronavirus, it makes us hopeful that those who have a positive virus test but had no symptoms, may really be unlikely to get infected in the future.

Interesting news:  Some families (children and parents) reported mild symptoms, others families had more severe symptoms.  The researchers think severity of disease depends on some unknown genetic factors.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on May 20, 2020, 01:44:41 PM
Hit it out of the ballpark again!

@biobook What is your educational/work background?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Iz on May 20, 2020, 02:33:39 PM
And the great news: nobody will die twice.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 20, 2020, 02:36:46 PM
And the great news: nobody will die twice.
Unless cats can get it again
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Mootkim on May 20, 2020, 02:41:34 PM
Not to bring any proof from the New York Department of Health, however, in the Nursing Home industry, Cuomo has mandated all employees in New York to be tested twice a week. At first the FAQ stated that an employee who had previously had a positive test and/or has a positive antibody test would be exempt from continuing to take the twice weekly test. However, yesterday they completely reversed this stating that even with positive antibody test they are still required to take twice weekly tests "until more is learned about immunity following Covid-19". Don't know if this is still part of their covering up the mistakes they made with regards to the nursing homes since March or if they are seeing some data in regards to the antibodies.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on May 20, 2020, 02:42:43 PM
Not to bring any proof from the New York Department of Health, however, in the Nursing Home industry, Cuomo has mandated all employees in New York to be tested twice a week. At first the FAQ stated that an employee who had previously had a positive test and/or has a positive antibody test would be exempt from continuing to take the twice weekly test. However, yesterday they completely reversed this stating that even with positive antibody test they are still required to take twice weekly tests "until more is learned about immunity following Covid-19". Don't know if this is still part of their covering up the mistakes they made with regards to the nursing homes since March or if they are seeing some data in regards to the antibodies.
Interesting, could be for 'just in case' or for research though.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on May 20, 2020, 02:45:22 PM
Thanks @biobook!! Like everyone else here, I find your posts very clear and very informative. I'm curious as to how some of this translates to the novel coronavirus, with respect to the observed differences between our virus and most coronaviruses.

Only 12 of the 86 (14%) people who got sick were reinfected, so perhaps immunity lasts longer for most people.

The working theory, IINM, has been that Covid is more contagious than the average coronavirus. Are the 12 recurrences due to immunity of the other 85%, or lack of repeated exposure? Additionally, the study says that reinfection was most common in children. I'm curious to know if that would hold true here, and what the ramifications would be for schools, especially since, at least at one point, children were (or are?) viewed as dangerous silent spreaders. (I'm not sure if this still holds true.)

In their records of the cold-symptoms people reported over this time, they found that people who got sick twice had similar symptoms both times. 

The images of lungs with Covid have shown extensive damage, even for those with very mild symptoms. There have also been reports of the virus attacking other organs, on an individual basis. With the average coronavirus, is there documented damage to any internal organs? If yes, how does a second attack on those same organs not cause cumulative damage? If not, is it possible that our virus may prove to hit harder during a second infection due to the attacked organ being weakened by the first infection?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Afrages6 on May 20, 2020, 09:52:42 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/monkeys-infected-covid-19-develop-140612025.html?soc_src=newsroom&soc_trk=com.apple.UIKit.activity.PostToTwitter&.tsrc=newsroom&__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on May 20, 2020, 11:19:37 PM

@biobook What is your educational/work background?
I have been educated, and I have worked!  But not in immunology or epidemiology or medicine.  I just read a lot, including here at DD, and am learning all this together with everyone else.

Not to bring any proof from the New York Department of Health, however, in the Nursing Home industry, Cuomo has mandated all employees in New York to be tested twice a week. At first the FAQ stated that an employee who had previously had a positive test and/or has a positive antibody test would be exempt from continuing to take the twice weekly test. However, yesterday they completely reversed this stating that even with positive antibody test they are still required to take twice weekly tests "until more is learned about immunity following Covid-19". Don't know if this is still part of their covering up the mistakes they made with regards to the nursing homes since March or if they are seeing some data in regards to the antibodies.
If they're trying to "cover up", they're not doing a terribly good job, because you've found out about it!  No, it seems more likely that they originally thought that a positive antibody test meant the employee would have long-term immunity, and now they're not so sure, so want to test more frequently to make sure that the antibody levels remain high.  Or maybe they're concerned about false positive tests.


The working theory, IINM, has been that Covid is more contagious than the average coronavirus. Are the 12 recurrences due to immunity of the other 85%, or lack of repeated exposure? Additionally, the study says that reinfection was most common in children. I'm curious to know if that would hold true here, and what the ramifications would be for schools, especially since, at least at one point, children were (or are?) viewed as dangerous silent spreaders. (I'm not sure if this still holds true.)
First, I should mention that they started studying 191 people, and only 86 of those had any positive test at all during the year.  So more than half of the people were never infected at all during the year.  Not surprising, since we all know that when "some cold is going around" not every single person catches it.  But we can't tell if it was because nobody in their vicinity had the virus, or if they were just better at washing hands and keeping hands away from their nose.  And the same applies to the question of why the 85% had virus in their nose the first time, but never tested positive again during the year.  Maybe they weren't re-exposed to the virus, or maybe they managed to wash hands and keep it out of their nose.   

We wouldn't say that 85% were immune, because that would imply that they were infected with the virus but didn't get sick, while these 85% weren't shown to be infected a second time, so we don't know if they were immune or not. This study wasn't trying to figure out how long immunity might last, but rather how short it might be.  So all they can really conclude is that in some people, immunity to these coronaviruses may last just a few months.

Re: children, yes, 9 of the 12 who were re-infected were children.  Again, not surprising, since children are so much more likely to stick their fingers in their nose and to develop colds.  The novel coronavirus affects adults and children differently, so I don't think we can conclude anything at this point.   


The images of lungs with Covid have shown extensive damage, even for those with very mild symptoms. There have also been reports of the virus attacking other organs, on an individual basis. With the average coronavirus, is there documented damage to any internal organs? If yes, how does a second attack on those same organs not cause cumulative damage? If not, is it possible that our virus may prove to hit harder during a second infection due to the attacked organ being weakened by the first infection?
From this article, it sounds like these 4 coronaviruses generally just cause respiratory symptoms, not other internal damage.

If the novel coronavirus acts like these 4, we would expect a second infection to be as bad as the first, but not worse.  But the novel coronavirus is different in so many ways, so this expectation is very iffy. 

If we draw any conclusions relevant to our current situation, it would be that those who've recovered from a bout of covid-19 should not think that they're immune for life, but should be taking the same precautions as those who've never been infected, to try to avoid a second infection.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 21, 2020, 03:24:04 AM
Interesting news:  Some families (children and parents) reported mild symptoms, others families had more severe symptoms.  The researchers think severity of disease depends on some unknown genetic factors.
We should make a poll about this. I have a similar feeling from friends that had it.
If they're trying to "cover up", they're not doing a terribly good job, because you've found out about it!  No, it seems more likely that they originally thought that a positive antibody test meant the employee would have long-term immunity, and now they're not so sure, so want to test more frequently to make sure that the antibody levels remain high.  Or maybe they're concerned about false positive tests.
I doubt anybody really gave it so much thought, it's just better safe than sorry. But there is a public health policy concern with exempting people with positive antibody test, as it provides a perverse incentive for people to dangerously infect themselves.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Mootkim on May 21, 2020, 04:39:30 PM

If they're trying to "cover up", they're not doing a terribly good job, because you've found out about it!  No, it seems more likely that they originally thought that a positive antibody test meant the employee would have long-term immunity, and now they're not so sure, so want to test more frequently to make sure that the antibody levels remain high.  Or maybe they're concerned about false positive tests.

They're not doing frequent AB tests though. They are mandating that every employee take a nasal swab twice a week to test for active Covid. Even someone who had it in the past and has had numerous negatives after they had it and has AB is still required to do the nasal swab.

And by cover up I meant that they are trying to fix the issues that they caused with possibly being responsible for hundreds of nursing home deaths. In March they required all NH's to accept patients from the hospitals even if they had active Covid. NH's were liable to fines and disciplinary action if they did not comply. This most definitely caused hundreds of deaths and outbreaks in NH's. The reason they mandated this was so that hospitals do not get overwhelmed. About 2 months later in one of his press conferences, Cuomo was asked about this and said that he was unaware of the rule. since then he has been trying to fix the mistakes by mandating many other measures (including not allowing NH's to accept Covid patients until they test negative).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: how on May 24, 2020, 09:49:36 AM
They're not doing frequent AB tests though. They are mandating that every employee take a nasal swab twice a week to test for active Covid. Even someone who had it in the past and has had numerous negatives after they had it and has AB is still required to do the nasal swab.

And by cover up I meant that they are trying to fix the issues that they caused with possibly being responsible for hundreds of nursing home deaths. In March they required all NH's to accept patients from the hospitals even if they had active Covid. NH's were liable to fines and disciplinary action if they did not comply. This most definitely caused hundreds of deaths and outbreaks in NH's. The reason they mandated this was so that hospitals do not get overwhelmed. About 2 months later in one of his press conferences, Cuomo was asked about this and said that he was unaware of the rule. since then he has been trying to fix the mistakes by mandating many other measures (including not allowing NH's to accept Covid patients until they test negative).
he clearly was aware. He had defended it in earlier press conferences. He wasnít counting nursing home deaths until April 17.
Once he started to count nursing home deaths he conveniently forgot about his directive. But He still defended it for a few weeks until reversing it.
Personally I donít give much weight to his decisions regarding antibody testing. I donít think his decision is based on anything. After all itís not his fault that 26k people died. Its the Wall Street journal fault for not warning him in time

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: LEARNERBURNER on May 25, 2020, 01:28:33 AM
The fearmongering on this thread is unfreakinbelivable.
You are all going to die. Hopefully after 120 or more years.
A lot of lives would have been saved if not for the fearmongering.
Yes, Dr. D..... and others, you have Yiddish blood on your hands.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 25, 2020, 01:35:45 AM
The fearmongering on this thread is unfreakinbelivable.
You are all going to die. Hopefully after 120 or more years.
A lot of lives would have been saved if not for the fearmongering.
Yes, Dr. D..... and others, you have Yiddish blood on your hands.
Yup, ignorance is bliss. We shouldn't bother teaching people how to read either.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 02:10:02 AM
The fearmongering on this thread is unfreakinbelivable.
You are all going to die. Hopefully after 120 or more years.
A lot of lives would have been saved if not for the fearmongering.
Yes, Dr. D..... and others, you have Yiddish blood on your hands.
You got it. Heís the one.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on May 25, 2020, 07:40:34 AM
The fearmongering on this thread is unfreakinbelivable.
You are all going to die. Hopefully after 120 or more years.
A lot of lives would have been saved if not for the fearmongering.
Yes, Dr. D..... and others, you have Yiddish blood on your hands.
And I thought I've seen everything...
Just wow.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Jellybelly on May 25, 2020, 08:22:47 AM
The fearmongering on this thread is unfreakinbelivable.
You are all going to die. Hopefully after 120 or more years.
A lot of lives would have been saved if not for the fearmongering.

Definitely is some truth to this, but Blood on their hands is a bit much.
On the other hand, People would not have listened if not for fear.
Just another reason why Daas Torah should be making the call and not Doctors. Itís not a simple decision how strict restrictions should be and what should and shouldnít be said
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 11:44:54 AM
Definitely is some truth to this, but Blood on their hands is a bit much.
On the other hand, People would not have listened if not for fear.
Just another reason why Daas Torah should be making the call and not Doctors. Itís not a simple decision how strict restrictions should be and what should and shouldnít be said
Is it a bit much to say there is blood on the hands of people who acted recklessly in defiance of doctors and Rabbanim and directly caused some deaths?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on May 25, 2020, 11:51:34 AM
Is it a bit much to say there is blood on the hands of people who acted recklessly in defiance of doctors and Rabbanim and directly caused some deaths?
is there blame for recklessness yes.
blood on hand is a bit too much though
there is a difference between ignoring social distancing and actively going out when you know you are contagious
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Eb228 on May 25, 2020, 11:52:54 AM
Is it a bit much to say there is blood on the hands of people who acted recklessly in defiance of doctors and Rabbanim and directly caused some deaths?

If you're G-d. and can trace every small germ around the globe, nope, definitely not too much to say.

For the rest of us...
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on May 25, 2020, 12:06:48 PM
If you're G-d. and can trace every small germ around the globe, nope, definitely not too much to say.

For the rest of us...
Got it. Iíll forward your message to all of the Rabbanim who said this publicly.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: gsquared817 on June 01, 2020, 04:27:41 PM
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.ditchek/videos/3075132022530051/

At 4 minutes in Dr. Ditchek says they are noticing steady declines in IgG levels for people taking multiple antibody tests. In his case the numbers fell too low to donate more plasma a few weeks after successfully donating.

Does this mean people will start getting reinfected?
Does this mean making a vaccine is going to be harder than we originally hoped for? Or that we'll all need frequent boosters?


i got tested (mayo) a month apart- april 22 and may 23. my antibodies went from 3.12 to 3.02 and i gave plasma twice during that time.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chulent613 on October 07, 2020, 04:14:07 PM
Is there a link to an explanation of the different kinds of antibody test results?
I went to the Mt Sinai in May and had 2880 and just went to care365 and had 60.
They are both considered positive and I'm trying to determine if it's dropping as they are clearly different systems.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: junion on October 07, 2020, 05:20:46 PM
Is there a link to an explanation of the different kinds of antibody test results?
I went to the Mt Sinai in May and had 2880 and just went to care365 and had 60.
They are both considered positive and I'm trying to determine if it's dropping as they are clearly different systems.
I dont know of a link, but If you got an official result emailed to you then by looking at the pdf you should be able to see what number you have to be to be considered positive on that test.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chulent613 on October 07, 2020, 06:24:50 PM
I got the email from care365 and it said anything above 15 is positive however I don't know what the range was for MT sinai so I can't determine if it's dropping.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on October 08, 2020, 12:11:37 AM
I got the email from care365 and it said anything above 15 is positive however I don't know what the range was for MT sinai so I can't determine if it's dropping.
IINM, 2880 is the highest number you'll get from mt sinai.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 08, 2020, 12:22:32 AM
Is Quest or Labcorp doing any quantitative tests, or still just qualitative?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: meme on October 19, 2020, 11:30:38 PM
Anyone have info or article link on how to understand the antibody numbers for the different types of tests?  Tested positive (IGG) but trying to figure out if my number is relatively low or high..
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Tomorrow on October 19, 2020, 11:36:31 PM
Anyone have info or article link on how to understand the antibody numbers for the different types of tests?  Tested positive (IGG) but trying to figure out if my number is relatively low or high..
1.1 is low 3s to 5 is high. Unless it's a 1-100 scale then 5 is very low and 60s to 100 is high. Unless it's the other scale which until 300 is low 8-900 to 3000 is high. Good luck.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: meme on October 19, 2020, 11:49:13 PM
1.1 is low 3s to 5 is high. Unless it's a 1-100 scale then 5 is very low and 60s to 100 is high. Unless it's the other scale which until 300 is low 8-900 to 3000 is high. Good luck.

It actually seems to be none of the above which is why Iím confused..  If Iím reading results correctly seems to be less than 15 is considered negative, 15 and above is positive. Trying to figure out if 18 is high or relatively low for a positive..
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: chulent613 on October 20, 2020, 05:11:22 AM
It actually seems to be none of the above which is why Iím confused..  If Iím reading results correctly seems to be less than 15 is considered negative, 15 and above is positive. Trying to figure out if 18 is high or relatively low for a positive..


Sounds like the care 365 test. 18 sounds low as I believe the range goes from 1-400
My wife had 375 so it's a real range.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on October 20, 2020, 10:13:29 AM
Anyone know the relative scale/range for the Roche test that NYC Health and Hospitals administers?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on October 20, 2020, 10:20:11 AM
Anyone know the relative scale/range for the Roche test that NYC Health and Hospitals administers?
When I took that test they didn't give a number, just pos/neg
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Traveler718 on October 20, 2020, 10:31:07 AM
When I took the Roche test back in June, it was just pos/neg. My son was tested about a month ago and was now given a quantitative result (#Dan). I believe it was around 130, which they said was considered fairly high. I believe anything over about 80 translated to positive, but may be slightly off on the numbers.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 10:34:03 AM
When I took the Roche test back in June, it was just pos/neg. My son was tested about a month ago and was now given a quantitative result (#Dan). I believe it was around 130, which they said was considered fairly high. I believe anything over about 80 translated to positive, but may be slightly off on the numbers.
Where did he take it?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on October 20, 2020, 10:43:09 AM
When I took that test they didn't give a number, just pos/neg
When I took the Roche test back in June, it was just pos/neg. My son was tested about a month ago and was now given a quantitative result (#Dan). I believe it was around 130, which they said was considered fairly high. I believe anything over about 80 translated to positive, but may be slightly off on the numbers.
I believe they switched over from a yes/no to a quantitative test at some point. The results say that 1.00 and up is positive - ie likely that you were exposed to the virus or something like that. But I'm trying to figure out if there's some number that translates to an immunity threshold. Within my family, we ranged from low 40's to nearly 200.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: meme on October 20, 2020, 10:45:35 AM
Did anyone test again a week or two later and yield a higher quantitative result?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on October 20, 2020, 10:48:06 AM
I took one test in May (idk which but it was the one where 15 is pos) and got 7, then I took the Roche test in July and it was pos. For whatever that's worth.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Traveler718 on October 20, 2020, 11:02:11 AM
Where did he take it?

With our local (frum) family doctor, the same one who gave me the test in June. He's also the medical director at a large frum medical facility in Brooklyn, so he's extremely well-connected and knowledgeable. He tested my son on Sept. 8.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
With our local (frum) family doctor, the same one who gave me the test in June. He's also the medical director at a large frum medical facility in Brooklyn, so he's extremely well-connected and knowledgeable.
I wonder if Quest/Labcorp offices are giving quantitative results these days. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: 4yourinfo on October 20, 2020, 11:06:17 AM
I took one test in May (idk which but it was the one where 15 is pos) and got 7, then I took the Roche test in July and it was pos. For whatever that's worth.
You may have been exposed - which boosted your antibodies
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on October 20, 2020, 11:09:53 AM
You may have been exposed - which boosted your antibodies
Do you mean between the two tests?
I had some symptoms in March but didn't test for the virus
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Joe4007 on October 20, 2020, 12:00:18 PM
I wonder if Quest/Labcorp offices are giving quantitative results these days. Anyone know?
Tested with Quest last week and didn't get a quantitative result.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 12:16:42 PM
Tested with Quest last week and didn't get a quantitative result.
Bummer, thanks.
Anyone use Labcorp recently?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
Looks like clinical trials only :(
https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 20, 2020, 12:54:15 PM
Looks like clinical trials only :(
https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials
And that press release you posted says "... the level of antibodies needed to be considered immune to SARS-CoV-2 is yet to be determined" so even if you had a number, you wouldn't know if it met some threshold for immunity.

The only way to know what level of antibody prevents re-infection is to wait for re-infections to occur, and examine the antibody level at that time.  There have been only 23 (?) confirmed reinfections worldwide.  We discussed one of these last week:

"The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea...He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed....

"On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 01:15:23 PM
And that press release you posted says "... the level of antibodies needed to be considered immune to SARS-CoV-2 is yet to be determined" so even if you had a number, you wouldn't know if it met some threshold for immunity.

The only way to know what level of antibody prevents re-infection is to wait for re-infections to occur, and examine the antibody level at that time.  There have been only 23 (?) confirmed reinfections worldwide.  We discussed one of these last week:

"The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea...He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed....

"On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
Sure, but it would allow you to track the movement of your own antibodies over time.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on October 20, 2020, 07:00:21 PM
Anyone know the relative scale/range for the Roche test that NYC Health and Hospitals administers?

I took their antibody test yesterday and got results within 3 hours. Negative for antibodies (I tested .10, where anything .99 or less is negative).

The result page didnít say which test it was, it was called ďCOVID-19 Total AntibodyĒ.

ETA:

The results included the following two links which imply itís the Roche test. The PDFs in the links donít seem to provide information on how to interpret the test result numbers:

Providers: https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download
Recipients: https://www.fda.gov/media/137604/download
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: meme on October 20, 2020, 07:20:27 PM
I took their antibody test yesterday and got results within 3 hours. Negative for antibodies (I tested .10, where anything .99 or less is negative).

The result page didnít say which test it was, it was called ďCOVID-19 Total AntibodyĒ.

ETA:

The results included the following two links which imply itís the Roche test. The PDFs in the links donít seem to provide information on how to interpret the test result numbers:

Providers: https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download
Recipients: https://www.fda.gov/media/137604/download
Where did you take this test?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on October 20, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Where did you take this test?

Kings County hospitalís walk-in COVID testing. Itís in tents outside the D building (I think thatís what itís called).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: username on October 20, 2020, 10:58:43 PM
Labcor  @ walgreens just says postive or negative.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2020, 11:03:24 PM
Labcor  @ walgreens just says postive or negative.
Which test was it?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 21, 2020, 01:23:28 AM
Sure, but it would allow you to track the movement of your own antibodies over time.
So it could be fun, like some people track their weight over time, or blood pressure, or fitbit activity.   But @skyguy918 wondered "if there's some number that translates to an immunity threshold" and we seem to be far from knowing that.  Two reasons: We don't know what level of antibodies allows re-infection (or if cases like that Nevada one are rare flukes).  And we do know that even if antibodies become undetectable, there may well be memory B cells that are able to quickly ramp up antibody production if we're reinfected (at least this is true for some other diseases), as well as T cells that may prevent a second illness. 

I found a couple of clinical trials that are trying to figure out this relationship between antibody level and immunity.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04540484?id=NCT04540484&draw=2&rank=1
COVID-19 IgG Formation in Physicians at ALGH and Their Household Members
"...To date, there have been no studies confirming that IgG antibody formation confers immunity, but studies are ongoing. Furthermore, data is lacking showing conclusive persistence of (possibly protective) antibodies over time." So they're studying physicians at a particular hospital in Illinois, where there are a lot of covid patients treated.  The doctors' antibody level will be measured every 3 months, and they'll also be able to relate this to any covid (re)infections that develop in the doctors.  That study is expected to take a year.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04411147?id=NCT04411147&draw=2&rank=1
A Longitudinal Study of COVID-19 Sequelae and Immunity
"Objective: To learn about any long-term medical problems that people who have recovered from COVID-19 might have, and whether they develop an immune response to SARS-CoV-2 that provides protection against reinfection."  They'll assay antibody levels every 6 months, for 3 years.   This one is recruiting 900 participants, and anyone who meets the criteria is welcome to apply.  You get free antibody tests!  I don't know if they reimburse you for transportation costs to the NIH lab in Bethesda MD, but you can use points and get an unusual TR out of it! 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 21, 2020, 07:12:59 AM
DW just got her test results from Hadassah Medical in EY. Her IgG number shows about 2x what her most recent test taken in the US showed. (Same scale. Over 15.0 considered positive).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: username on October 21, 2020, 09:44:11 AM
Which test was it?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on October 21, 2020, 10:22:43 AM
So it could be fun, like some people track their weight over time, or blood pressure, or fitbit activity.   But @skyguy918 wondered "if there's some number that translates to an immunity threshold" and we seem to be far from knowing that.  Two reasons: We don't know what level of antibodies allows re-infection (or if cases like that Nevada one are rare flukes).  And we do know that even if antibodies become undetectable, there may well be memory B cells that are able to quickly ramp up antibody production if we're reinfected (at least this is true for some other diseases), as well as T cells that may prevent a second illness. 
Yeah, so I'm not wondering about whether an actual threshold has been scientifically established. The facts on the ground are that some (not the CDC, or most government entities in the US) are assuming that there is some threshold and there are numbers being used as a threshold for each antibody test. Like Israel for example:
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/news-roundup/israel-travel-news-roundup-flight-sales-open-antibody-tests-accepted-el-al-status-extension-uae-bilateral-agreement-etihad-israel-site-new-era-inshallah/

Another example: The most vocal KGH doctor throughout the pandemic (as in vocal about the need to take it seriously, the need to shut things down, etc.) holds strongly of antibody immunity, to the point that he doesn't where he (I assume being positive for antibodies) doesn't war a mask most of the time despite his practice probably being one of the primary testing sites for the frum community. When I tested positive and and he was telling me to quarantine my family, I asked about my wife (who had just retaken antibody test at his practice a week earlier) and he said with a recent positive immunity level antibody test she doesn't have to quarantine. I don't know which test he uses or what his threshold is, but I know my family's numbers for the Roche test that NYC Health and Hospitals is currently administering, hence my question. Realistically it's not changing my behavior, but I am curious.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 21, 2020, 07:53:08 PM
Yeah, so I'm not wondering about whether an actual threshold has been scientifically established. The facts on the ground are that some (not the CDC, or most government entities in the US) are assuming that there is some threshold and there are numbers being used as a threshold for each antibody test. Like Israel for example:
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/news-roundup/israel-travel-news-roundup-flight-sales-open-antibody-tests-accepted-el-al-status-extension-uae-bilateral-agreement-etihad-israel-site-new-era-inshallah/

Another example: The most vocal KGH doctor throughout the pandemic (as in vocal about the need to take it seriously, the need to shut things down, etc.) holds strongly of antibody immunity, to the point that he doesn't where he (I assume being positive for antibodies) doesn't war a mask most of the time despite his practice probably being one of the primary testing sites for the frum community. When I tested positive and and he was telling me to quarantine my family, I asked about my wife (who had just retaken antibody test at his practice a week earlier) and he said with a recent positive immunity level antibody test she doesn't have to quarantine. I don't know which test he uses or what his threshold is, but I know my family's numbers for the Roche test that NYC Health and Hospitals is currently administering, hence my question. Realistically it's not changing my behavior, but I am curious.

Those who study viruses suspect that immunity will be similar to other known coronaviruses, where immunity lasts a year or two.  Some might be reinfected as soon as 2 months (as we've seen one case), while most will probably be immune for 6 months to a year.

The positive antibody test just confirms Yes, you've had covid, either quite recently or a short time ago when you felt sick.  If you want to act based on assumptions, then it makes more sense to base it on time passed since infection, and not on specific antibody numbers, since we don't know how/if those relate to immunity.  I would guess that it was the recency of infection that led the doctor to assume that he and your wife had some immunity.

The Israel Dept of Health refers to numbers used by the companies who developed the test as the threshold for concluding that the test is positive (or borderline).  That's a threshold for measurable antibodies, not a threshold for immunity.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on October 21, 2020, 08:58:31 PM
Those who study viruses suspect that immunity will be similar to other known coronaviruses, where immunity lasts a year or two.  Some might be reinfected as soon as 2 months (as we've seen one case), while most will probably be immune for 6 months to a year.

The positive antibody test just confirms Yes, you've had covid, either quite recently or a short time ago when you felt sick.  If you want to act based on assumptions, then it makes more sense to base it on time passed since infection, and not on specific antibody numbers, since we don't know how/if those relate to immunity.  I would guess that it was the recency of infection that led the doctor to assume that he and your wife had some immunity.

The Israel Dept of Health refers to numbers used by the companies who developed the test as the threshold for concluding that the test is positive (or borderline).  That's a threshold for measurable antibodies, not a threshold for immunity.
Your assumption (bolded) is incorrect. She was COVID positive sometime between Purim and Pesach. She tested positive for antibodies (Mt Sinai) with a result she was told was relatively a high number. When she tested more recently (probably late Sep) with this local doctor, he told her the number was a little over immunity level (ie implying that there had been a drop).

Re Israel, what use is a positive/negative antibody result if it doesn't imply anything about current state of infection or potential immunity? I don't see how it's useful unless you assume some level of immunity.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 22, 2020, 12:20:25 PM
Your assumption (bolded) is incorrect. She was COVID positive sometime between Purim and Pesach. She tested positive for antibodies (Mt Sinai) with a result she was told was relatively a high number. When she tested more recently (probably late Sep) with this local doctor, he told her the number was a little over immunity level (ie implying that there had been a drop).
Okay, so here's a different assumption  :)  When the doctor said "a little over immunity level" he probably meant "a little over antibody threshold level", that is, a little over the number that is used to conclude that the antibody test is positive.  Nobody knows yet what level of antibody will provide the immunity needed to avoid a second infection. 
Quote
Re Israel, what use is a positive/negative antibody result if it doesn't imply anything about current state of infection or potential immunity? I don't see how it's useful unless you assume some level of immunity.

Israel's goal is to decrease entry of virus into the country, balanced by the economic and social needs to allow travel.  They're not at all interested in any individual's particular level of immunity, nor interested in how this will change over time.  They just want to know, on that day that you're flying, what's the chance that you're bringing in live virus.

A positive antibody test implies that someone PROBABLY has been exposed to coronavirus, and PROBABLY is immune, and so is PROBABLY not carrying live virus now.  There's a lot of uncertainty there, but based on our knowledge of other coronaviruses, let's say we're 95% certain they're not carrying the virus.  So a group of antibody-positive travelers is much less likely to import the virus than a random group of people coming from NY/NJ.  Some infected people probably WILL enter, but hopefully very few.  If Israel is trying to ramp up travel, it makes sense to begin by allowing this group in first, and seeing how it goes.  (Actually, they rescinded permission for this yesterday, I think, not sure why.)

But decisions we make for groups of people - public health - is not always the same as decisions made for individual health. 

If 95% of Ab+ people are immune today (and I totally made up this number), it still means that 5% of Ab+ people are susceptible to infection/reinfection/transmitting the virus to others.  And that 5% will increase over time as immunity weakens. 

As an individual, my goal is to prevent illness to myself and others. The antibody test doesn't give a yes/no answer to immunity.  If I'm Ab+, I wouldn't say "Now, I'm immune, I can spend time with my great grandmother."  Rather, "Now there's a 95% chance I'm immune, and only a 5% chance that if I spend time with my great grandmother, I'll infect her and cause her death."  We need to keep that (still unknown) probability in mind when we make our decisions. 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on October 22, 2020, 12:23:48 PM
Okay, so here's a different assumption  :)  When the doctor said "a little over immunity level" he probably meant "a little over antibody threshold level", that is, a little over the number that is used to conclude that the antibody test is positive.  Nobody knows yet what level of antibody will provide the immunity needed to avoid a second infection. 
Israel's goal is to decrease entry of virus into the country, balanced by the economic and social needs to allow travel.  They're not at all interested in any individual's particular level of immunity, nor interested in how this will change over time.  They just want to know, on that day that you're flying, what's the chance that you're bringing in live virus.

A positive antibody test implies that someone PROBABLY has been exposed to coronavirus, and PROBABLY is immune, and so is PROBABLY not carrying live virus now.  There's a lot of uncertainty there, but based on our knowledge of other coronaviruses, let's say we're 95% certain they can't carry the virus.  So a group of antibody-positive travelers is much less likely to import the virus than a random group of people coming from NY/NJ.  Some infected people probably WILL enter, but hopefully very few.  If Israel is trying to ramp up travel, it makes sense to begin by allowing this group in first, and seeing how it goes.  (Actually, they rescinded permission for this yesterday, I think, not sure why.)

But decisions we make for groups of people - public health - is not always the same as decisions made for individual health. 

If 95% of Ab+ people are immune today (and I totally made up this number), it still means that 5% of Ab+ people are susceptible to infection/reinfection/transmitting the virus to others.  And that 5% will increase over time as immunity weakens. 

As an individual, my goal is to prevent illness to myself and others. The antibody test doesn't give a yes/no answer to immunity.  If I'm Ab+, I wouldn't say "Now, I'm immune, I can spend time with my great grandmother."  Rather, "Now there's a 95% chance I'm immune, and only a 5% chance that if I spend time with my great grandmother, I'll infect her and cause her death."  We need to keep that (still unknown) probability in mind when we make our decisions.
FTFY
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: aygart on October 22, 2020, 12:30:24 PM
FTFY

The corollary of that fix is that if there is a 5% chance that they are not immune it does not mean a 5% of transmitting. They would still need to become infected. So if someone Ab- has a 10% chance of being infected and able to transmit at a given time (this number is random and likely high) that would mean having a .5% chance of making the grandmother sick.



As an individual, my goal is to prevent illness to myself and others. The antibody test doesn't give a yes/no answer to immunity.  If I'm Ab+, I wouldn't say "Now, I'm immune, I can spend time with my great grandmother."  Rather, "Now there's a 95% chance I'm immune, and only a 5% chance that if I spend time with my great grandmother, I'll infect her and cause her death."  We need to keep that (still unknown) probability in mind when we make our decisions. 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 22, 2020, 12:33:14 PM
DW just got her test results from Hadassah Medical in EY. Her IgG number shows about 2x what her most recent test taken in the US showed. (Same scale. Over 15.0 considered positive).

@biobook or anyone. I know the title says "dropping antibody levels" but here we have a clear case of higher levels 2 weeks later (and about 7 months from presumed COVID-19 infection). Are there any other similar DP? Is it possible that the levels just fluctuate? What can influence them?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 22, 2020, 12:44:34 PM
The corollary of that fix is that if there is a 5% chance that they are not immune it does not mean a 5% of transmitting. They would still need to become infected. So if someone Ab- has a 10% chance of being infected and able to transmit at a given time (this number is random and likely high) that would mean having a .5% chance of making the grandmother sick.
Yes, you're 100% right.   :D 
I just meant there's a real, though very small, chance that an Ab+ person will get sick or get others sick. 

Me: we're 95% certain they're not carrying the virus.
Avromie7: we're 95% certain they can't carry the virus.

For Israel, they just want to know if that person is carrying the virus on that flight, so I'm not sure what you're adding,  @avromie7

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on October 22, 2020, 12:51:49 PM
Yes, you're 100% right.   :D 
I just meant there's a real, though very small, chance that an Ab+ person will get sick or get others sick. 

Me: we're 95% certain they're not carrying the virus.
Avromie7: we're 95% certain they can't carry the virus.

For Israel, they just want to know if that person is carrying the virus on that flight, so I'm not sure what you're adding,  @avromie7 .
The way you wrote it, it says there is a 5% chance they are infected which is inaccurate. I changed it to say there is a 5% chance they can be infected which means compared to everyone else, they are 20x less likely to be infected.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 22, 2020, 12:57:40 PM
@biobook or anyone. I know the title says "dropping antibody levels" but here we have a clear case of higher levels 2 weeks later (and about 7 months from presumed COVID-19 infection). Are there any other similar DP? Is it possible that the levels just fluctuate? What can influence them?
I don't know the answer, but in general, biological variables fluctuate, some minute to minute, some hourly, some over the course of the day, some over weeks. 

A personal example: A few years ago, my doctor wanted to do a routine blood test for cholesterol.  A few days later, I got a call from his office saying my results were over 300, so high that I should return right away for another test.  I called a doctor-friend, and his first question was "Were you dehydrated when they took blood?"  Was he looking over my shoulder?  Of course, I was!  I was supposed to be fasting, so hadn't eaten or drunk all morning, and of course I was late, so I ran to the office, and it was in the summer, so a sweating hot day, and the waiting room was packed, so I had a long wait, and the first thing I did when I left was to get a drink.  He explained that tests of anything in the blood are reported as mg of something per ml of watery blood, so if you're dehydrated, the same amount of cholesterol is now dissolved in a smaller amount of watery blood, and so the result can be artificially high.  Sure enough, a few days later, I drank water normally before the test (and walked over there slowly!) and my cholesterol was boringly normal.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 22, 2020, 12:59:29 PM
The way you wrote it, it says there is a 5% chance they are infected which is inaccurate. I changed it to say there is a 5% chance they can be infected which means compared to everyone else, they are 20x less likely to be infected.
Oh, okay. :)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 22, 2020, 01:11:03 PM
A positive antibody test implies that someone PROBABLY has been exposed to coronavirus, and PROBABLY is immune, and so is PROBABLY not carrying live virus now.  There's a lot of uncertainty there, but based on our knowledge of other coronaviruses, let's say we're 95% certain they're not carrying the virus.  So a group of antibody-positive travelers is much less likely to import the virus than a random group of people coming from NY/NJ.  Some infected people probably WILL enter, but hopefully very few.  If Israel is trying to ramp up travel, it makes sense to begin by allowing this group in first, and seeing how it goes. (Actually, they rescinded permission for this yesterday, I think, not sure why.)

This is the frustrating part, causing serious mental anguish.

One would think that it would make tremendous sense to allow entry to antibody+ individuals, especially since there are so many of those (that never had a positive PCR test, because they had COVID-19 without severe symptoms when PCR tests were being rationed) within a demographic that is likely to have many ready and willing to travel and spend money in Israel.

BUT... nothing (there) is done with any logic.

The rescinding of the authorization to exit mandatory quarantine based on antibody testing was purely due to technicalities and bureaucratic reasons. They approved it, but didn't manage to set up the logistics of how it would be done (and the obvious wrangling as to who gets the funds).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 22, 2020, 01:13:05 PM
I don't know the answer, but in general, biological variables fluctuate, some minute to minute, some hourly, some over the course of the day, some over weeks. 

A personal example: A few years ago, my doctor wanted to do a routine blood test for cholesterol.  A few days later, I got a call from his office saying my results were over 300, so high that I should return right away for another test.  I called a doctor-friend, and his first question was "Were you dehydrated when they took blood?"  Was he looking over my shoulder?  Of course, I was!  I was supposed to be fasting, so hadn't eaten or drunk all morning, and of course I was late, so I ran to the office, and it was in the summer, so a sweating hot day, and the waiting room was packed, so I had a long wait, and the first thing I did when I left was to get a drink.  He explained that tests of anything in the blood are reported as mg of something per ml of watery blood, so if you're dehydrated, the same amount of cholesterol is now dissolved in a smaller amount of watery blood, and so the result can be artificially high.  Sure enough, a few days later, I drank water normally before the test (and walked over there slowly!) and my cholesterol was boringly normal.

I could have told you that (without knowing any science thereof). I usually recommend to my clients to fast prior to giving blood for an insurance exam, and then drink as much water as they humanly can starting about an hour or two prior to the exam. Usually comes back with great results.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on October 22, 2020, 01:56:13 PM
Okay, so here's a different assumption  :)  When the doctor said "a little over immunity level" he probably meant "a little over antibody threshold level", that is, a little over the number that is used to conclude that the antibody test is positive.  Nobody knows yet what level of antibody will provide the immunity needed to avoid a second infection. 
I feel like you're imposing your own knowledge around what the scientific/medical consensus is on the wider world, and it's starting to get a little grating. Consensus (which again, doesn't really exist on many questions surrounding COVID) is not universal agreement. I already mentioned the fact that this doctor told me after my positive rapid test that I and my kids need to quarantine, but that my wife's positive antibody test from a week prior (the one where he told her at the time it's above immunity level but not by much) was sufficient to allow her not to quarantine. I don't believe any government guidelines would agree with that, nor are most doctors giving this advice. all medical professionals. And to be honest, my wife generally quarantined, except for maybe one very quick run to the supermarket (masked up).

As far as being a little over immunity level vs a little over positive result level - that's just not the case. When my whole family tested after Sukkos (at an NYC H&H location), her result was ~50. The threshold indicating a positive result is 1.00 (two of my kids were below that mark). The other 3 positives in the family were much higher than 50.
But decisions we make for groups of people - public health - is not always the same as decisions made for individual health. 

If 95% of Ab+ people are immune today (and I totally made up this number), it still means that 5% of Ab+ people are susceptible to infection/reinfection/transmitting the virus to others.  And that 5% will increase over time as immunity weakens. 

As an individual, my goal is to prevent illness to myself and others. The antibody test doesn't give a yes/no answer to immunity.  If I'm Ab+, I wouldn't say "Now, I'm immune, I can spend time with my great grandmother."  Rather, "Now there's a 95% chance I'm immune, and only a 5% chance that if I spend time with my great grandmother, I'll infect her and cause her death."  We need to keep that (still unknown) probability in mind when we make our decisions.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with my question. I noted that immunity would not be changing my behavior,
...Realistically it's not changing my behavior, but I am curious.
So to be honest, it's a little insulting for you to respond with a scenario about using immunity to justify changing behaviors.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 22, 2020, 08:07:14 PM
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with my question.

I noted that immunity would not be changing my behavior,So to be honest, it's a little insulting for you to respond with a scenario about using immunity to justify changing behaviors.

My sincere apologies.  I make an effort to not insult anyone here, and I'm sorry if you were offended by what I wrote.  I did read your comment that you wouldn't change your behavior based on immunity, and I did think "kol hakavod!" and should have written that.  I wasn't thinking specifically of you when I wrote my post.  I'm aware that responses to one person are often read by others here, and so I tried to phrase my post in a way that would make it understandable and meaningful for DDFers in general.  (And others did read it, and - correctly - noted where my explanation was defective.) ::)

I already mentioned the fact that this doctor .... told her at the time it's above immunity level but not by much) was sufficient to allow her not to quarantine...

I agree that an individual doctor might give a patient advice that doesn't exactly comply with government guidelines.  I'm not disagreeing with his decision that quarantine is unnecessary.  It's just the use of the words "immunity level" which seem puzzling, since it was antibodies that were measured, not immunity.  But I see that the first two ways I came up with to resolve this weren't right, so perhaps the only way to know what he meant by it is to ask him.

I feel like you're imposing your own knowledge around what the scientific/medical consensus is on the wider world, and it's starting to get a little grating.
Could you clarify this?  I take care not to insult, but haven't been paying attention to whether I grate.  I get that you think I'm annoying, but I don't know what you think I should stop doing.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: how on October 23, 2020, 02:49:26 PM
DW just got her test results from Hadassah Medical in EY. Her IgG number shows about 2x what her most recent test taken in the US showed. (Same scale. Over 15.0 considered positive).
I assume itís possible that a recent exposure mightíve caused the increase in antibodies
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 23, 2020, 04:46:07 PM
@skyguy918  Could you do me a favor and return to this thread?  I'm trying to improve my writing skills, so your feedback may be helpful, but I don't understand your comments.  I'd appreciate if you could explain. TIA.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 23, 2020, 04:56:15 PM
I assume itís possible that a recent exposure mightíve caused the increase in antibodies

There was no known exposure.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: drosenberg88429 on October 23, 2020, 05:21:06 PM
There was no known exposure.

If she lived in Brooklyn or a chareidi area in Israel, there was almost guaranteed exposure.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 23, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
If she lived in Brooklyn or a chareidi area in Israel, there was almost guaranteed exposure.

Well, there was definitely exposure around Purim. But no known or likely exposure between the recent antibody test taken in Brooklyn and the one taken in EY.

I really don't know which universe you're living in, thinking that Brooklyn (Crown Heights specifically) would be guaranteed exposure since Shavuos.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 25, 2020, 07:26:57 PM
@biobook or anyone. I know the title says "dropping antibody levels" but here we have a clear case of higher levels 2 weeks later (and about 7 months from presumed COVID-19 infection). Are there any other similar DP? Is it possible that the levels just fluctuate? What can influence them?
Here's a partial answer. Quebec researchers measured antibody levels in recovered covid patient who donated convalescent plasma repeatedly. Each line on the graph is another person.  Although antibodies decreased in general over this time period, you can see it fluctuates, and sometimes one measurement is actually higher than the previous one in that person.
(https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/2020/10/5/2bd0e37a-d850-4b93-9132-488acb30b1b2-screen-shot-2020-10-05-at-15721-pm.png?w=349&h=267.6225961538462&auto=format%2Ccompress&cs=srgb&q=70&fit=max&crop=faces)
https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/doi/10.1182/blood.2020008367/463996/Waning-of-SARS-CoV-2-RBD-antibodies-in
The authors ask whether the repeated donations might actually be responsible for the decline in antibodies. When @Dan suggested this a month ago, I answered (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=119232.msg2328831#msg2328831) that I thought it unlikely based on theoretical issues. The authors apparently did consider it possible, but also concluded that it's unlikely, based on their results here. Their reasoning was that if donating antibodies depleted the supply, then antibody levels should drop more rapidly in those who donated more times, but there was no such correlation.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on October 27, 2020, 08:29:49 PM
Why You Shouldnít Worry About Studies Showing Waning Coronavirus Antibodies
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/coronavirus-antibodies-studies.html
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on October 30, 2020, 09:29:53 AM
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-people-mount-strong-antibody-response.amp
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: username on December 18, 2020, 10:58:36 AM
I wonder if Quest/Labcorp offices are giving quantitative results these days. Anyone know?
Anyplace in Cleveland where you can get an antibody test with a score result, not just positive/negative ?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on December 18, 2020, 11:03:11 AM
Anyplace in Cleveland where you can get an antibody test with a score result, not just positive/negative ?
I'm told they don't offer it because nobody knows what the numbers mean yet.
Would have been nice to track the direction of the numbers though.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dovdovmoneytree on January 04, 2021, 11:54:41 AM
Just was tested for antibodies and came back negative. I was positive back in May (had most Covid symptoms in March but like most, could not get tested). Does a negative test actually mean it is negative or possibly just too low to be detected? Either way, I guess that means my immunity is gone??
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on January 04, 2021, 12:29:41 PM
Just was tested for antibodies and came back negative. I was positive back in May (had most Covid symptoms in March but like most, could not get tested). Does a negative test actually mean it is negative or possibly just too low to be detected? Either way, I guess that means my immunity is gone??
Immunity likely lasts way longer than antibodies, but you can't know for sure once the antibodies are gone.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 12:48:20 PM
Just was tested for antibodies and came back negative. I was positive back in May (had most Covid symptoms in March but like most, could not get tested). Does a negative test actually mean it is negative or possibly just too low to be detected? Either way, I guess that means my immunity is gone??
No, it doesn't necessarily indicate that your immunity is gone.  Antibodies produced to fight infection naturally start to decrease thereafter.  But that initial infection also creates permanent memory B cells that will rapidly produce Covid antibodies if needed in the future, as well as T cells.  So you may still have immunity.   

Why You Shouldnít Worry About Studies Showing Waning Coronavirus Antibodies
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/coronavirus-antibodies-studies.html
HOWEVER, it's also possible that you don't have immunity any more.  The only way to know if someone is immune is to see if they become sick when re-exposed.  Among those who had a well-documented second infection with Covid, some of them did have measurable antibodies at the time they were re-infected.  Nobody knows why this did not protect them.  Was this unique to those few people?  Did they have some other immune deficiency?  Or is there really a level of antibody which is simply insufficient to fight off infection? 

For some other coronaviruses, immunity lasts just a few months to a year.  For other coronaviruses, it has lasted for decades.  Not enough time has passed to know how long immunity will last to this coronavirus, or how it might relate to their antibody level, which is why everyone is asked to wear masks and socially distance.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: avromie7 on January 04, 2021, 02:32:03 PM
No, it doesn't necessarily indicate that your immunity is gone.  Antibodies produced to fight infection naturally start to decrease thereafter.  But that initial infection also creates permanent memory B cells that will rapidly produce Covid antibodies if needed in the future, as well as T cells.  So you may still have immunity.   
HOWEVER, it's also possible that you don't have immunity any more.  The only way to know if someone is immune is to see if they become sick when re-exposed.  Among those who had a well-documented second infection with Covid, some of them did have measurable antibodies at the time they were re-infected.  Nobody knows why this did not protect them.  Was this unique to those few people?  Did they have some other immune deficiency?  Or is there really a level of antibody which is simply insufficient to fight off infection? 

For some other coronaviruses, immunity lasts just a few months to a year.  For other coronaviruses, it has lasted for decades.  Not enough time has passed to know how long immunity will last to this coronavirus, or how it might relate to their antibody level, which is why everyone is asked to wear masks and socially distance.
Where did you see this? I haven't seen evidence of any confirmed reinfections while having measurable antibodies.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 05:09:43 PM
Where did you see this? I haven't seen evidence of any confirmed reinfections while having measurable antibodies.
It was reported in the first US case of reinfection in October, not sure now if that was the only case that also measured antibodies.
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
Excerpts:
The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea....

He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed.

On April 27, he reported his symptoms had all resolved and he felt fine, but at the time, employees were required to test negative for the coronavirus twice before they would be allowed back to work, Kerwin said. So he remained isolated at home.

A month later, he began feeling poorly again. At the same time, there was an outbreak where one of his parents, also an essential worker, was employed, Kerwin said.

On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: iluv2travel on January 04, 2021, 05:18:42 PM
It was reported in the first US case of reinfection in October, not sure now if that was the only case that also measured antibodies.
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
Excerpts:
The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea....

He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed.

On April 27, he reported his symptoms had all resolved and he felt fine, but at the time, employees were required to test negative for the coronavirus twice before they would be allowed back to work, Kerwin said. So he remained isolated at home.

A month later, he began feeling poorly again. At the same time, there was an outbreak where one of his parents, also an essential worker, was employed, Kerwin said.

On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said.

There's some missing or conflicting information here.

For starters, you state that the first case of reinvention was in October, but this man tested positive again in early June?

Why wasn't he testing intermittently to get the 2 negatives needed to go back to work? Its been reported that the virus can linger in some and he may not have had reinfection in June, but rather a resurgence? I really don't know but there's stuff here that just doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 05:30:45 PM
There's some missing or conflicting information here.

For starters, you state that the first case of reinvention was in October, but this man tested positive again in early June?
Sorry, I meant to say that it was reported in October, not that the reinfection happened then. 
Quote
Why wasn't he testing intermittently to get the 2 negatives needed to go back to work? Its been reported that the virus can linger in some and he may not have had reinfection in June, but rather a resurgence? I really don't know but there's stuff here that just doesn't add up.

He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed.

On April 27, he reported his symptoms had all resolved and he felt fine, but at the time, employees were required to test negative for the coronavirus twice before they would be allowed back to work, Kerwin said. So he remained isolated at home.

A month later, he began feeling poorly again. At the same time, there was an outbreak where one of his parents, also an essential worker, was employed, Kerwin said.

I understood the bolded part to indicate that he DID have those two negative tests required to return to work. But I'll check the original article and see if it makes it clearer. 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: 4yourinfo on January 04, 2021, 05:38:34 PM
It was reported in the first US case of reinfection in October, not sure now if that was the only case that also measured antibodies.
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/
Excerpts:
The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea....

He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed.

On April 27, he reported his symptoms had all resolved and he felt fine, but at the time, employees were required to test negative for the coronavirus twice before they would be allowed back to work, Kerwin said. So he remained isolated at home.

A month later, he began feeling poorly again. At the same time, there was an outbreak where one of his parents, also an essential worker, was employed, Kerwin said.

On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said.
Assumed he had antibodies? Doesn't say he was tested for antibodies before he got sick again
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2021, 05:42:13 PM
Several people, myself included, had rebound symptoms a few weeks after the first bout. But I wouldn't consider that a reinfection.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: iluv2travel on January 04, 2021, 06:09:58 PM
I understood the bolded part to indicate that he DID have those two negative tests required to return to work. But I'll check the original article and see if it makes it clearer.

I understood it the exact opposite way.

He reported on 4/27 that his symptoms resolved and he felt fine. However, because he did NOT have the 2 negatives he remained in isolation. Why would he remain in isolation if he'd yes gotten the 2 required negatives?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 06:34:41 PM

Why wasn't he testing intermittently to get the 2 negatives needed to go back to work?
He had two negative tests on May 9 and May 26, according to the scientific article.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30764-7/fulltext

Its been reported that the virus can linger in some and he may not have had reinfection in June, but rather a resurgence?
Several people, myself included, had rebound symptoms a few weeks after the first bout. But I wouldn't consider that a reinfection.
Right, resurgence/lingering/rebound symptoms can occur, and that makes it difficult to conclude that seemingly new symptoms are in fact a reinfection.  So to consider something a reinfection, they're focusing only on those cases where the genome was sequenced for both infections, and there are significant differences between them, which would imply exposure to a new virus, rather than resurgence of the first one. 

There are now 33 cases that meet that definition, and another 2325 suspected cases. https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/08/covid-19-reinfection-tracker/
https://bnonews.com/index.php/reinfection-tracker-suspected-cases/

Compared to the number of primary infections, these are obviously tiny numbers, so still impossible to know whether these few people are rarities, and reinfection will be rare, or if these few people are the tip of the iceberg, and reinfections will increase over the next year. 

Assumed he had antibodies? Doesn't say he was tested for antibodies before he got sick again
Yes, you make an important point.  The USA Today reporter wrote "Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said."  But Kerwin et al's article in Lancet (link above) shows that antibodies were measured only on June 6, a day after the second positive virus test on June 5, and they hadn't tested for antibodies before then.  "A major limitation of our case study is that we were unable to undertake any assessment of the immune response to the first episode of SARS-CoV-2 infection. We also could not assess fully the effectiveness of the immune responses (eg, neutralising antibody titres) during the second episode, when the individual was antibody-positive for total antibody assay to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid protein."

So you're right, that it's possible that this person either failed to produce antibodies the first time (unlikely, since antibodies seem necessary for recovery), or made them and then they disappeared completely (unlikely, because antibodies are usually broken down slowly after infection is over).  But they agree that this missing data point makes it impossible to draw firm conclusions from this one case:

"If our patient is a case of reinfection, it is crucial to note that the frequency of such an occurrence is not defined by one case study: this event could be rare. The absence of comprehensive genomic sequencing of positive cases in the USA and worldwide limits the advances in public health surveillance needed to find these cases. Certainly, limitations in screening and testing availability for SARS-CoV-2 exacerbate the poor surveillance efforts being undertaken not only to diagnose COVID-19 but also to obtain actionable genetic tracking of this agent.

I understood it the exact opposite way.

He reported on 4/27 that his symptoms resolved and he felt fine. However, because he did NOT have the 2 negatives he remained in isolation. Why would he remain in isolation if he'd yes gotten the 2 required negatives?

He felt fine on 4/27, but because 2 negatives were required before returning to work, he remained in isolation at home and didn't return to work.  During that isolation, he had the two negative tests on May 9 and May 26, after which he came out of isolation and returned to work. 
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: iluv2travel on January 04, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
Thanks for filling in the missing info.

So basically on 4/27 although he felt fine he remained in isolation because he didn't have 2 negatives yet. He only was able to exit isolation after 5/26 which was almost the time when he began feeling symptoms again (on 5/31).

Regarding the fact that he "still" had antibodies, if he was only first tested on June 6, perhaps those antibodies were only produced in response to the second infection? Its possible that a person should not produce antibodies. I'm not sure there is data on this but I do have anecdotal evidence from people I know who tested positive for COVID (with symptoms) but tested antibodies negative thereafter.

As much as we already know, I think there's still a lot we need to learn about this virus.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 07:44:45 PM
Thanks for filling in the missing info.

So basically on 4/27 although he felt fine he remained in isolation because he didn't have 2 negatives yet. He only was able to exit isolation after 5/26 which was almost the time when he began feeling symptoms again (on 5/31).
Right.  He might have picked up the second infection at work, or from someone living in his home who worked elsewhere, or, I suppose, from going for that second test...
Quote
Regarding the fact that he "still" had antibodies, if he was only first tested on June 6, perhaps those antibodies were only produced in response to the second infection?

Right. Earlier I had said "Among those who had a well-documented second infection with Covid, some of them did have measurable antibodies at the time they were re-infected" but I was relying on the USA Today article, which said "the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies." 

But this article was based on the Lancet article, where they specifically regret not having antibody measurement before the second infection, so it does seem, as you suggest, that the man had no measurable antibodies on 5/26 (when he had the second negative test), was reinfected soon after, and began producing antibodies to that second infection.

Quote
Its possible that a person should not produce antibodies. I'm not sure there is data on this but I do have anecdotal evidence from people I know who tested positive for COVID (with symptoms) but tested antibodies negative thereafter.
Interesting.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: iluv2travel on January 04, 2021, 07:53:31 PM
... so it does seem, as you suggest, that the man had no measurable antibodies on 5/26 (when he had the second negative test), was reinfected soon after,

It seems that he probably was only able to be reinfected because he didn't produce antibodies the first time around.

I don't think there's ever been a case where a person was antibodies positive and COVID negative at least a few days prior to a reinfection.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 04, 2021, 08:11:20 PM
It seems that he probably was only able to be reinfected because he didn't produce antibodies the first time around.
Well, we don't have any evidence to conclude that.  The effectiveness of any chemical in the body, or any drug we introduce into the body, is going to depend on the dose, or the amount.  A baby aspirin might not cure your headache, but a larger dose will.  It's possible that he did produce antibodies first time around, but a few weeks later they had declined to too low of a dose to effectively fight off infection.
Quote
I don't think there's ever been a case where a person was antibodies positive and COVID negative at least a few days prior to a reinfection.
There have been only 33 documented reinfections, and each one had different data collected about it, so it seems too early to say that there hasn't ever been such a case. 

I'll take a look at some of those 33 and see if any pop up.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: iluv2travel on January 04, 2021, 08:17:26 PM
Well, we don't have any evidence to conclude that.  The effectiveness of any chemical in the body, or any drug we introduce into the body, is going to depend on the dose, or the amount.  A baby aspirin might not cure your headache, but a larger dose will.  It's possible that he did produce antibodies first time around, but a few weeks later they had declined to too low of a dose to effectively fight off infection.

Yes, that's a likely scenario as well.


Quote
There have been only 33 documented reinfections, and each one had different data collected about it, so it seems too early to say that there hasn't ever been such a case. I'll take a look at some of those 33 and see if any pop up.

Would be very interesting if there was a confirmed COVID negative plus confirmed antibodies positive followed by a new COVID positive while there is/was potentially still antibodies. This would obviously be something extremely rare at this point given that 33 confirmed reinfections as a whole is minuscule.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: gozalim on January 04, 2021, 08:20:44 PM
It seems fair to say that we have not yet seen a single case worldwide where someone was antibody positive and was reinfected during that time.

(on the other hand there do seem to be some -very few- cases of general reinfection. both where no antibodies were ever recorded, as well as were antibodies had been previously been recorded but then dropped below detectable levels)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 05, 2021, 02:40:58 AM
It seems fair to say that we have not yet seen a single case worldwide where someone was antibody positive and was reinfected during that time.

(on the other hand there do seem to be some -very few- cases of general reinfection. both where no antibodies were ever recorded, as well as were antibodies had been previously been recorded but then dropped below detectable levels)

There do seem to be a few cases that at least hint that someone was reinfected while antibody positive:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/81-israelis-suspected-of-being-reinfected-with-coronavirus-health-ministry/
Published in October:


Another in Israel:
https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/SJvLIxRnw
From England: A large study of health care workers.  1246 tested antibody-positive in April.  They were invited for PCR tests for virus every two weeks, and antibody testing every two months, but it's not clear to me whether they were actually tested that often.  3 of them had a subsequent positive PCR picked up by this repeated screening, suggesting reinfection, but they were all asymptomatic.
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/12/08/study-of-healthcare-workers-shows-covid-19-immunity-lasts-many-months/
The researchers say that because of the small number of reinfections, they can't draw any conclusions about the relative importance of current or past antibody level or T cells in preventing reinfection. 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.18.20234369v1.full

So at this point, reinfections are rare, but we can't point to a certain level of antibodies that prevents them from occuring.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2021, 11:57:14 AM
No idea what my levels are, but just tested positive for antibodies some 11 months after I was infected.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Euclid on January 07, 2021, 12:12:19 PM
No idea what my levels are, but just tested positive for antibodies some 11 months after I was infected.
Did you need to transfer a credit line?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on January 07, 2021, 12:25:27 PM
Did you need to transfer a credit line?
If you don't like your results, HUCA
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: NTorch on January 07, 2021, 05:48:22 PM
No idea what my levels are, but just tested positive for antibodies some 11 months after I was infected.

Great new study showing antibodies and immunity eight months post infection
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/01/06/science.abf4063

Summarized in local newspaper
https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/covid-19-patients-still-immune-eight-months-after-infection-study/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2021, 03:37:59 PM
What does the below mean? That antibodies were present, but not enough to cross the threshold?
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNZnHQ2W/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/z3rm3SZ2)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2021, 03:38:38 PM
What does the below mean? That antibodies were present, but not enough to cross the threshold?
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNZnHQ2W/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/z3rm3SZ2)

Yup
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2021, 04:00:49 PM
Yup

She tested positive 2.5 weeks ago, I guess still developing?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2021, 04:01:48 PM
Very likely
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 14, 2021, 04:20:38 PM
Very likely
Especially if it was a mild case.

"Most persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 display an antibody response between day 10 and day 21 after infection. Detection in mild cases can take longer time (four weeks or more) and in a small number of cases antibodies (i.e., IgM, IgG) are not detected at all (at least during the studiesí time scale)."
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/immune-responses
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on January 14, 2021, 05:23:09 PM
I had a mild case, 1.5 months later had 7/15 aka negative for antibodies, 3.5 months after infection got a positive antibody result (different test, no number given).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yeshivabucher on January 14, 2021, 05:31:53 PM
I had a mild case, 1.5 months later had 7/15 aka negative for antibodies, 3.5 months after infection got a positive antibody result (different test, no number given).
very likely you were exposed and it triggered a response
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2021, 05:35:32 PM
very likely you were exposed and it triggered a response
Source?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2021, 05:52:41 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqwH1rXT/image.png) (https://postimages.org/)
So....my daughter got the exact same results - which firstly seems odd. She tested negative twice after my wife tested positive, but I guess either they were false negatives or it's possible she had it before my wife and by the time she tested was already negative?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on January 14, 2021, 06:35:40 PM
What does the below mean? That antibodies were present, but not enough to cross the threshold?
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNZnHQ2W/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/z3rm3SZ2)


I got the same and I donít believe Iíve had COVID, multiple negative PCRs every time I thought I had symptoms.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2021, 03:50:56 PM
Quant now available:
https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164090/sars-cov-2-semi-quantitative-total-antibody
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: zagguru on January 15, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
No idea what my levels are, but just tested positive for antibodies some 11 months after I was infected.

Same levels?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2021, 03:58:36 PM
Same levels?
I haven't been able to get titer levels yet.

It only recently got EUA approval: https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/roche-receives-fda-emergency-use-authorization-new-semi-quantitative-test-measure-level-sars-cov-2
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Mootkim on January 18, 2021, 02:46:53 PM

"Most persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 display an antibody response between day 10 and day 21 after infection. Detection in mild cases can take longer time (four weeks or more) and in a small number of cases antibodies (i.e., IgM, IgG) are not detected at all (at least during the studiesí time scale)."
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/immune-responses
Does the same apply for getting the vaccine? will I have a quantitative antibody count 21 days after the second dose?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 22, 2021, 03:35:14 PM
I haven't been able to get titer levels yet.

It only recently got EUA approval: https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/roche-receives-fda-emergency-use-authorization-new-semi-quantitative-test-measure-level-sars-cov-2
Took this, 192.6 U/mL. Anything over 0.8 is considered positive.
The total range is 0.4-250 U/mL.

Curious how this compares to other people who had COVID or had the vaccine. But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: zh cohen on January 23, 2021, 07:32:09 PM
But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.

How severe was your case? I thought they were saying that people with mild cases likely have lower antibody count.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 23, 2021, 07:35:20 PM
But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
I wonder if it was boosted by further exposure.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 23, 2021, 07:44:22 PM
How severe was your case? I thought they were saying that people with mild cases likely have lower antibody count.
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/coronavirus/skipped-cathay-pacific-flight-february-avoid-covid-19-flew-nyc-infected-instead/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
I wonder if it was boosted by further exposure.
Certainly possible. No way to know, as this was my first quant titer.
My son had COVID last month, but nobody else in the family tested positive on multiple PCRs each.

Anyone else going to take the Roche quant titer (Labcorp test 164090)? Would love to see comps.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on January 24, 2021, 11:48:21 PM
Took this, 192.6 U/mL. Anything over 0.8 is considered positive.
The total range is 0.4-250 U/mL.

Curious how this compares to other people who had COVID or had the vaccine. But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
Anyone else going to take the Roche quant titer (Labcorp test 164090)? Would love to see comps.
NYC Health & Hospitals was using a quantitative Roche antibody test as far back as Sukkos at least, but it doesn't appear to be the same exact test. The cutoff was .99, not .81, and they didn't provide a total range.

https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yitzgar on January 24, 2021, 11:51:44 PM
Took this, 192.6 U/mL. Anything over 0.8 is considered positive.
The total range is 0.4-250 U/mL.

Curious how this compares to other people who had COVID or had the vaccine. But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
How much does the test cost? Does insurance cover?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2021, 07:30:07 PM
Took this, 192.6 U/mL. Anything over 0.8 is considered positive.
The total range is 0.4-250 U/mL.

Curious how this compares to other people who had COVID or had the vaccine. But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
My father got the Pfizer vaccine and took this test.
Results were >250 U/mL, which is above the max level the test detects.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on January 30, 2021, 08:10:38 PM
My father got the Pfizer vaccine and took this test.
Results were >250 U/mL, which is above the max level the test detects.

Nice. Thatís after 1st dose?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2021, 08:14:22 PM
Nice. Thatís after 1st dose?
2 doses.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on January 30, 2021, 09:02:14 PM
2 doses.
How long afterwards? My second dose of Moderna is the week of Purim..
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2021, 09:05:00 PM
How long afterwards? My second dose of Moderna is the week of Purim..
He took the test 2 weeks after his 2nd dose.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2021, 11:14:40 PM
My father got the Pfizer vaccine and took this test.
Results were >250 U/mL, which is above the max level the test detects.
And another person 2 weeks post 2nd dose also tested >250 U/mL.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on January 30, 2021, 11:17:00 PM
My father got the Pfizer vaccine and took this test.
Results were >250 U/mL, which is above the max level the test detects.
Could be genetic, since both you and your father have such eleffated antibody levels.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 31, 2021, 10:23:38 AM
Could be genetic, since both you and your father have such eleffated antibody levels.

If it's not genetic, what are the odds of such levels? 1 in a thousand?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2021, 10:26:03 AM
If it's not genetic, what are the odds of such levels? 1 in a thousand?
I got a very nice wedding present from someone who wrote "if only your name was alpayim and not eleff"
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: michael on February 09, 2021, 10:43:26 AM
Just retested my family for antibodies. 7/8 have antibodies, which is consistent with our testing in September. Most of us got Covid in March 2020.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Euclid on February 11, 2021, 11:43:52 AM
What is the most accurate antibody test?

@Dan is it still Roche 164068?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on February 11, 2021, 11:48:56 AM
What is the most accurate antibody test?

@Dan is it still Roche 164068?
Yes, for qual.
If you want quant, Roche 164090. But this test takes more time, needs more blood, and potentially costs more.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: asd on February 11, 2021, 01:45:05 PM
https://www.timesofisrael.com/landmark-israeli-study-suggests-covid-patients-stay-immune-after-antibodies-fade/
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on February 11, 2021, 01:48:43 PM
https://www.timesofisrael.com/landmark-israeli-study-suggests-covid-patients-stay-immune-after-antibodies-fade/

They say that antibody levels spiked for COVID recoverees after their 1st dose (compared to non-recoverees), similar to the 2nd dose boost. What they don't say is how those spikes compare for recoverees whose antibodies waned. If all they did was aggregate the data it shows nothing about the issue in question (per the headline).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: av83 on February 20, 2021, 08:48:49 PM
Where can i get the "Roche 164068"  test in Lakewood?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on February 20, 2021, 08:51:56 PM
Where can i get the "Roche 164068"  test in Lakewood?
Labcorp
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: av83 on February 20, 2021, 08:53:27 PM
Labcorp
Thanks. Anywhere else would like to get it tommorow....
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on February 20, 2021, 09:20:45 PM
Thanks. Anywhere else would like to get it tommorow....
Theyíre not open tomorrow?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: av83 on February 21, 2021, 09:15:14 AM
Theyíre not open tomorrow?
Dont think so. Am i missing something?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on February 21, 2021, 09:29:55 AM
We're so long into this that it's obvious that it's not just the antibody levels, but also the memory cells.
With dropping antibody levels, there are still only a miniscule number of reinfections.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on February 21, 2021, 10:23:55 AM
We're so long into this that it's obvious that it's not just the antibody levels, but also the memory cells.
With dropping antibody levels, there are still only a miniscule number of reinfections.

By memory cells you mean B-cells?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on February 21, 2021, 11:09:23 AM
By memory cells you mean B-cells?

Yes
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on February 21, 2021, 02:08:16 PM
Yes

Not necessarily. AFAIK we donít have aggregate data on antibody decrease, just the concern thatís possible and established in some cases. Additionally, the current decline might be due to vaccination or other factors, and what youíre describing might not play as big a role.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: av83 on February 28, 2021, 02:50:16 PM
I took an antiibody test atLabcorp and just got results back a s "Positive" how do i get the Roche 164068 test that will give me the antibody levels?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on February 28, 2021, 03:00:28 PM
I took an antiibody test atLabcorp and just got results back a s "Positive" how do i get the Roche 164068 test that will give me the antibody levels?
Get a Dr to write an Rx for that test number.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on February 28, 2021, 03:01:50 PM
Yes, for qual.
If you want quant, Roche 164090. But this test takes more time, needs more blood, and potentially costs more.
Filed for insurance and they reimbursed.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2021, 05:28:32 PM
Yes, for qual.
If you want quant, Roche 164090. But this test takes more time, needs more blood, and potentially costs more.

What scale do they use? I've had multiple antibody tests that give numeric values, and each of them seemed to use a different scale.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on February 28, 2021, 05:28:54 PM
What scale do they use? I've had multiple antibody tests that give numeric values, and each of them seemed to use a different scale.
Took this, 192.6 U/mL. Anything over 0.8 is considered positive.
The total range is 0.4-250 U/mL.

Curious how this compares to other people who had COVID or had the vaccine. But it's excellent news that 11 months later I'm still at the high end of the range.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
They say that antibody levels spiked for COVID recoverees after their 1st dose (compared to non-recoverees), similar to the 2nd dose boost. What they don't say is how those spikes compare for recoverees whose antibodies waned. If all they did was aggregate the data it shows nothing about the issue in question (per the headline).

Well. In June I got a "positive" antibody test (no numeric value). In October my antibody level on a test that gives a numeric reading were just below the threshold to be considered positive.

On 1/28 I got a low antibody reading on an Ortho VITOS SARS- CoVID-2 IgG kit

On 2/17 I got my first dose of Moderna vaccine.

On 2/21 I got a 6.9 Negative IGG where reference is < 9.0 (I was told that that test only detects/tests for naturally occurring antibodies, not those that show up as a result of a vaccine).

On 2/23 I got a 7763 IgG reading (results took almost 72 hours to come) where reference is 51-150 to be considered positive for someone previously recovered or vaccinated or over 150 to be considered positive without prior documented recovery or vaccination.

On 2/25 I got a 4810 reading (in about 6 hours) on a test where reference is > 15 to be considered positive.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on February 28, 2021, 05:59:14 PM
Well. In June I got a "positive" antibody test (no numeric value). In October my antibody level on a test that gives a numeric reading were just below the threshold to be considered positive.

On 1/28 I got a low antibody reading on an Ortho VITOS SARS- CoVID-2 IgG kit

On 2/17 I got my first dose of Moderna vaccine.

On 2/21 I got a 6.9 Negative IGG where reference is < 9.0 (I was told that that test only detects/tests for naturally occurring antibodies, not those that show up as a result of a vaccine).

On 2/23 I got a 7763 IgG reading (results took almost 72 hours to come) where reference is 51-150 to be considered positive for someone previously recovered or vaccinated or over 150 to be considered positive without prior documented recovery or vaccination.

On 2/25 I got a 4810 reading (in about 6 hours) on a test where reference is > 15 to be considered positive.
You just love blood tests donít you
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on February 28, 2021, 06:09:24 PM
Well. In June I got a "positive" antibody test (no numeric value). In October my antibody level on a test that gives a numeric reading were just below the threshold to be considered positive.

On 1/28 I got a low antibody reading on an Ortho VITOS SARS- CoVID-2 IgG kit

On 2/17 I got my first dose of Moderna vaccine.

On 2/21 I got a 6.9 Negative IGG where reference is < 9.0 (I was told that that test only detects/tests for naturally occurring antibodies, not those that show up as a result of a vaccine).

On 2/23 I got a 7763 IgG reading (results took almost 72 hours to come) where reference is 51-150 to be considered positive for someone previously recovered or vaccinated or over 150 to be considered positive without prior documented recovery or vaccination.

On 2/25 I got a 4810 reading (in about 6 hours) on a test where reference is > 15 to be considered positive.

So much positivity!  You're truly an antidote for all the negativity going around these days.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: grodnoking on February 28, 2021, 10:52:55 PM
My brother finally got told he can no longer donate antibodies (due to low count) after donating at least a half dozen times.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on February 28, 2021, 10:55:05 PM
My brother finally got told he can no longer donate antibodies (due to low count) after donating at least a half dozen times.
Sounds like you have a great brother!
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Traveler718 on March 02, 2021, 02:07:47 PM
If someone tests positive for antibodies, after how much time is it recommended to retest? We are making a family simcha soon and are requiring those coming who haven't been fully vaccinated and don't have recent antibodies to take a PCR test before coming. The issue is where to draw the cutoff line.

It's clear that the person who tested positive for antibodies 3 weeks ago is fine, but what about someone who was tested on Chanuka or Sukkos or last summer? And does it make a difference whether they were actually symptomatic and tested positive for COVID? I tried Google but couldn't fine any clear guidance on this topic. @biobook
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 02, 2021, 02:40:35 PM
If someone tests positive for antibodies, after how much time is it recommended to retest? We are making a family simcha soon and are requiring those coming who haven't been fully vaccinated and don't have recent antibodies to take a PCR test before coming. The issue is where to draw the cutoff line.

It's clear that the person who tested positive for antibodies 3 weeks ago is fine, but what about someone who was tested on Chanuka or Sukkos or last summer? And does it make a difference whether they were actually symptomatic and tested positive for COVID? I tried Google but couldn't fine any clear guidance on this topic. @biobook
In Israel they're valid for 6 months.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Traveler718 on March 02, 2021, 02:58:49 PM
In Israel they're valid for 6 months.

Wow, that's very helpful - source? Is there any US guidance on this topic whether the same 6 months or a different period of time? And is it 6 months only from the original post-COVID result, or even subaequent retests reset the clock for an additional 6 months?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: biobook on March 03, 2021, 02:42:07 AM
If someone tests positive for antibodies, after how much time is it recommended to retest? We are making a family simcha soon and are requiring those coming who haven't been fully vaccinated and don't have recent antibodies to take a PCR test before coming. The issue is where to draw the cutoff line.

It's clear that the person who tested positive for antibodies 3 weeks ago is fine, but what about someone who was tested on Chanuka or Sukkos or last summer? And does it make a difference whether they were actually symptomatic and tested positive for COVID? I tried Google but couldn't fine any clear guidance on this topic. @biobook
Did you add @biobook in the Edit?  I just came across this post, but hadn't gotten an email ping, so wondering if it happens when editing, or if it's something with my email.

When I looked into this - I think it was a couple months ago - the guidance (CDC and others) was to NOT base decisions about social behavior on antibody level because a) there was no known level of antibody about which we could say above this threshold, you're immune, and b) even if antibodies were low, a person might still be immune due to having memory B and T cells. 

But as we get more data, it is clear that most people are not getting reinfected so far, and so the recommendation is to consider TIME since infection, rather than antibody level, if you're trying to get a sense of immunity.  One study found that immunity for 95% of people studied lasts as long as 8 months, based on detailed study of antibodies as well as B cells and T cells. 

This was officially published a few weeks ago in Science: Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for up to 8 months after infection https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/eabf4063 but more informally in the news in November:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html 

So this seems to imply that immunity lasts at least 6-8 months after the infection, not 6-8 months after whenever the antibody test happened to be given.  So, in theory, there would be no need for an antibody test, if someone had a confirmed case of covid, they've probably got good immunity for the next 6 months.

On the other hand, there have been cases of reinfection, and no studies that I've seen on what antibody levels were in those who were reinfected.  And, in general, it's been found that those who had less severe or asymptomatic infections have lower antibody levels, though I don't know if they've looked at their T and B memory cells.

The PCR test also seems problematic.  Someone can test negative in the early stage of infection, and then be positive a couple days later when they're at your simcha.  Or they can pick up the infection during all the interactions that occur while traveling. 

And add to that all the uncertainty about the new variants, and whether the antibodies will be effective against them.

What Dr Fauci and Dr Wallensky have been saying is that now is not a good time for travel and social get togethers with people who aren't part of your current living group, especially considering how close we seem to be to widespread vaccination. I think that's why you haven't been able to find any clear guidance on this topic, because the guidance is that we just don't know yet if it's safe. 

If it were my family, I'd be telling them that we're making such an extra special party them and we realize now that it won't be ready before August, so we'll zoom for now, and invite you all to visit in the summer.  But I'm sure it's obvious by now that I'm on the low-risk end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 03, 2021, 08:42:37 AM
Did you add @biobook in the Edit?  I just came across this post, but hadn't gotten an email ping, so wondering if it happens when editing, or if it's something with my email.

When I looked into this - I think it was a couple months ago - the guidance (CDC and others) was to NOT base decisions about social behavior on antibody level because a) there was no known level of antibody about which we could say above this threshold, you're immune, and b) even if antibodies were low, a person might still be immune due to having memory B and T cells. 

But as we get more data, it is clear that most people are not getting reinfected so far, and so the recommendation is to consider TIME since infection, rather than antibody level, if you're trying to get a sense of immunity.  One study found that immunity for 95% of people studied lasts as long as 8 months, based on detailed study of antibodies as well as B cells and T cells. 

This was officially published a few weeks ago in Science: Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for up to 8 months after infection https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/eabf4063 but more informally in the news in November:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html 

So this seems to imply that immunity lasts at least 6-8 months after the infection, not 6-8 months after whenever the antibody test happened to be given.  So, in theory, there would be no need for an antibody test, if someone had a confirmed case of covid, they've probably got good immunity for the next 6 months.

On the other hand, there have been cases of reinfection, and no studies that I've seen on what antibody levels were in those who were reinfected.  And, in general, it's been found that those who had less severe or asymptomatic infections have lower antibody levels, though I don't know if they've looked at their T and B memory cells.

The PCR test also seems problematic.  Someone can test negative in the early stage of infection, and then be positive a couple days later when they're at your simcha.  Or they can pick up the infection during all the interactions that occur while traveling. 

And add to that all the uncertainty about the new variants, and whether the antibodies will be effective against them.

What Dr Fauci and Dr Wallensky have been saying is that now is not a good time for travel and social get togethers with people who aren't part of your current living group, especially considering how close we seem to be to widespread vaccination. I think that's why you haven't been able to find any clear guidance on this topic, because the guidance is that we just don't know yet if it's safe. 

If it were my family, I'd be telling them that we're making such an extra special party them and we realize now that it won't be ready before August, so we'll zoom for now, and invite you all to visit in the summer.  But I'm sure it's obvious by now that I'm on the low-risk end of the spectrum.

When you cite numbers like 95% after 6-8 months, and when we see similar numbers for fully vaccinated (mRNA) people, we need to consider the following:

These numbers are accurate in aggregate, but for an individual, or especially multiple individuals, they might (as a fluke) be an exception and have waning antibodies or get infected post-vaccination. Having 50-100 such people at a simcha today (with new confirmed infections in our communities every day) means thereís a real (albeit small, but real) possibility that chĒv a non-immune vulnerable/at-risk family member at this simcha could get infected.

@biobook makes a valid case for the fact that you donít need antibody testing, but if youíre using that as a proxy and/or to mitigate perceived risks (while not foolproof), then the longer itís been since someone was infected and/or has a confirmed antibody test, the greater value youíll have from retesting.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 03, 2021, 09:32:48 AM
You just love blood tests donít you

Yup. I think I'll try MBM antibody tests.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:04 AM
Yup. I think I'll try MBM antibody tests.
multiple bloodtest method, sounds good
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 03, 2021, 11:29:47 AM
multiple bloodtest method, sounds good

What's the bloodtest equivalent term for App-O-Rama?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: gozalim on March 03, 2021, 05:18:28 PM
What's the bloodtest equivalent term for App-O-Rama?
shootout?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: bingit on March 03, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
I just took another antibody test in Lakewood by Friendly urgent care using BioRefrence lab and it came back positive with the number 71.8, is that considered lots of antibodies??
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 03, 2021, 10:20:15 PM
I just took another antibody test in Lakewood by Friendly urgent care using BioRefrence lab and it came back positive with the number 71.8, is that considered lots of antibodies??
Take the Roche test at Labcorp if you want to compare apples to apples from the most reliable Antibody test.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2021, 10:47:49 AM
@AsherO do you know which test NYC Health+Hospitals use?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 04, 2021, 01:07:21 PM
@AsherO do you know which test NYC Health+Hospitals use?

@ExGingi Here you go:

NYC Health & Hospitals was using a quantitative Roche antibody test as far back as Sukkos at least, but it doesn't appear to be the same exact test. The cutoff was .99, not .81, and they didn't provide a total range.

https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download

They were using the same in December as well IME. Hereís the patient fact sheet:
https://www.fda.gov/media/137604/download

Tried to get another one recently but they told me they only test for antibodies once every 3 months.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2021, 01:27:02 PM
@ExGingi Here you go:

They were using the same in December as well IME. Hereís the patient fact sheet:
https://www.fda.gov/media/137604/download

Tried to get another one recently but they told me they only test for antibodies once every 3 months.

So no MBM for antibody testing?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 04, 2021, 01:34:53 PM
So no MBM for antibody testing?

I guess not? Maybe if you can convince them youíre someone else then you can test under another name?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2021, 01:44:57 PM
So no MBM for antibody testing?
Can go as often as you want to Lapcorp. Insurance pays in full.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 04, 2021, 01:48:25 PM
Can go as often as you want to Lapcorp. Insurance pays in full.

All insurances? I called my carrier in the summer and was advised they ďonly cover one COVID testĒ, they phone rep couldnít provide any further guidance whether itís one test per exposure/symptoms incident, per time period, or something else.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2021, 03:45:48 PM
Can go as often as you want to Lapcorp. Insurance pays in full.

I highly doubt it.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2021, 03:49:46 PM
I highly doubt it.
I've done 4 without issue.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 04, 2021, 03:52:38 PM
I've done 4 without issue.

You might have better insurance than many here.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2021, 04:10:15 PM
I've done 4 without issue.

Things can and do slip through. But from an insurance perspective, if there's no medical reason for it, it really shouldn't be covered.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on March 04, 2021, 04:20:22 PM
I've done 4 without issue.
::) Gosh, can someone please find the relevant quote
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 04, 2021, 04:27:17 PM
You might have better insurance than many here.
Has anyone here been denied coverage?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on March 04, 2021, 04:40:55 PM
::) Gosh, can someone please find the relevant quote
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116555.msg2411797#msg2411797
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on March 04, 2021, 04:53:47 PM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116555.msg2411797#msg2411797
Nope
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on March 04, 2021, 04:55:02 PM
How many times do I have to say it
Ein meviim raayah mi'Dan
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 04, 2021, 06:06:54 PM
Has anyone here been denied coverage?

As in: provider doing the test and submitting it only to get it denied and billed directly to patient?

Or do you mean: provider won't administer test because it isn't pre-approved, and you're on record with us as having had the test recently?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: S209 on March 05, 2021, 11:18:14 AM
Has anyone here been denied coverage?
Not I
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on March 06, 2021, 08:53:45 PM
Tested now a full year later.
199 on test that >15 is positive.

Bh.

I wanted to see where I'm holding ahead of vaccinating.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Lurker on March 06, 2021, 08:57:26 PM
Brother and sister both recently tested with very high levels after having it last March.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 06, 2021, 10:07:27 PM
Tested now a full year later.
199 on test that >15 is positive.

Bh.

I wanted to see where I'm holding ahead of vaccinating.

Did you have any exposure in the interim?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on March 06, 2021, 10:40:34 PM
Did you have any exposure in the interim?

Nobody close to me confirmed. No idea though.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: free123cc on March 08, 2021, 03:08:36 PM
had covid in mid dec 2020, just took a anti body test on fri at chemed. the results seem to show i had it but dont show any levels....is that weird? how can i see the level of antibodies?

COVID-19 Antibody, IgG
NAME   VALUE   REFERENCE RANGE   LAB
F   SARS-CoV-2 Antibody, IgG   Positive   Negative    RN
- Results suggest recent or prior infection with SARS-CoV-2. Correlation
- with epidemiologic risk factors and other clinical and laboratory
- findings is recommended. Serologic results should not be used as the
- sole basis to diagnose or exclude recent SARS-CoV-2 infection. False
- positive results infrequently occur due to prior infection with other
- human Coronaviruses.
- This assay was performed using the DiaSorin Liaison(R)
- SARS-CoV-2 S1/S2 IgG assay.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 08, 2021, 03:10:02 PM
had covid in mid dec 2020, just took a anti body test on fri at chemed. the results seem to show i had it but dont show any levels....is that weird? how can i see the level of antibodies?

COVID-19 Antibody, IgG
NAME   VALUE   REFERENCE RANGE   LAB
F   SARS-CoV-2 Antibody, IgG   Positive   Negative    RN
- Results suggest recent or prior infection with SARS-CoV-2. Correlation
- with epidemiologic risk factors and other clinical and laboratory
- findings is recommended. Serologic results should not be used as the
- sole basis to diagnose or exclude recent SARS-CoV-2 infection. False
- positive results infrequently occur due to prior infection with other
- human Coronaviruses.
- This assay was performed using the DiaSorin Liaison(R)
- SARS-CoV-2 S1/S2 IgG assay.
You took a qual test. You need a quant test for that.

The best one is the Roche Labcorp test 164090. A Dr can write an Rx for that test code.
Cost is about $50, should be covered by insurance.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 08, 2021, 03:27:15 PM
You took a qual test. You need a quant test for that.

The best one is the Roche Labcorp test 164090. A Dr can write an Rx for that test code.
Cost is about $50, should be covered by insurance.

The Roche test administered by NYC HHC is qualitative as well, does that mean that the number on this test is meaningless (compared to a quantitative test) for determining antibody levels?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: gozalim on March 08, 2021, 05:11:20 PM
The Roche test administered by NYC HHC is qualitative as well, does that mean that the number on this test is meaningless (compared to a quantitative test) for determining antibody levels?
based on what we know:
if you pass the threshold for qual test, should be fair to assume that you're (still) safe today. how long that will last? nobody knows, but quant tests can give some ideas
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 08, 2021, 06:32:07 PM
based on what we know:
if you pass the threshold for qual test, should be fair to assume that you're (still) safe today. how long that will last? nobody knows, but quant tests can give some ideas

Someone on DDF just reported today of known reinfections with recent confirmed antibody, so it isnít 100%:

My chavrusa was informed by the doctor at Friendly Urgent care that they have seen ~25 cases of people with prior antibodies getting reinfected in the last week. His cousin with *very* recent antibodies (tested within the last month) tested positive as well.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on March 08, 2021, 06:51:19 PM
The Roche test administered by NYC HHC is qualitative as well, does that mean that the number on this test is meaningless (compared to a quantitative test) for determining antibody levels?
Why do you say it's qualitative?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 08, 2021, 06:54:40 PM
Why do you say it's qualitative?

IINM thatís what the FDA factsheet says
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on March 08, 2021, 06:56:20 PM
IINM thatís what the FDA factsheet says
Don't know if this is current, but it doesn't mention either qualitative or quantitative.

https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download

If they give you a number, that's by definition quantitative, no?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 12:10:31 AM
Don't know if this is current, but it doesn't mention either qualitative or quantitative.

https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download

If they give you a number, that's by definition quantitative, no?

Sorry, my bad, I read it here:

Quote from: https://diagnostics.roche.com/us/en/products/params/elecsys-anti-sars-cov-2.html
Immunoassay to qualitatively detect antibodies against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)
Elecsysģ Anti-SARS-CoV-2 is an immunoassay intended for the qualitative detection of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 in human serum and plasma. The assay uses a recombinant protein representing the nucleocapsid (N) antigen for the determination of antibodies against SARS-CoV-2. The test is intended for use as an aid in identifying individuals with an adaptive immune response to SARS-CoV-2, indicating recent or prior infection.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on March 09, 2021, 12:19:32 AM
There appear to be 2 versions of the test, the newer one with an S at the end, which Roche explicitly calls quantitative. I think I was given the fact sheet for the former, but as I said before, if your result has a number, stands to reason it's quantitative.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 12:59:40 AM
There appear to be 2 versions of the test, the newer one with an S at the end, which Roche explicitly calls quantitative. I think I was given the fact sheet for the former, but as I said before, if your result has a number, stands to reason it's quantitative.

I donít think so. The number might for instance indicate how certain the test is that you have antibodies, but that doesnít mean that a 4 on the result means you have 4x the antibodies that someone who gets a 1 has.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 01:16:51 AM
The number is not indicative of how much antibody is present, see this PDF (quote is from right column on page 4)

Quote from:  https://www.fda.gov/media/137605/download
The magnitude of the measured result above the cutoff is not indicative of the total amount of antibody present in the sample.

The individual immune response following SARS‐CoV‐2 infection varies considerably and might give different results with assays from different manufacturers. Results of assays from different manufacturers should not be used interchangeably.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 09, 2021, 06:42:46 AM
The number is not indicative of how much antibody is present, see this PDF (quote is from right column on page 4)

All that quote is saying is that you can't compare the number from one type of test to another. But within the same test the number is definitely indicative.

Ao unlike Cholesterol, A1c, and other common standardized test, COVID-19 tests don't have a standard. But each test has its own range to which it can be compared, and as such is quantitative.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on March 09, 2021, 10:06:38 AM
All that quote is saying is that you can't compare the number from one type of test to another. But within the same test the number is definitely indicative.

Ao unlike Cholesterol, A1c, and other common standardized test, COVID-19 tests don't have a standard. But each test has its own range to which it can be compared, and as such is quantitative.
+1. And here's some proof. The EUA for plasma from the FDA has a table showing what value qualifies as being high-titer for various tests (to be eligible for plasma donation). It has values for both Roche tests.

https://www.fda.gov/media/141477/download
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 12:32:54 PM
 
+1. And here's some proof. The EUA for plasma from the FDA has a table showing what value qualifies as being high-titer for various tests (to be eligible for plasma donation). It has values for both Roche tests.

https://www.fda.gov/media/141477/download

Thanks. Very valuable link and I stand corrected. The chart is valuable in that it gives some frame of reference for comparing the ratios between tests, but that doesnít necessarily mean the quantification is always proportionate. Are any of the tests in the chart the LabCorp test Dan swears by?

While researching this I read about how some blood tests (wasnít specifically about this one) are semi-quantitative in that they offer an approximation, maybe thatís the case here.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: skyguy918 on March 09, 2021, 12:52:33 PM

Thanks. Very valuable link and I stand corrected. The chart is valuable in that it gives some frame of reference for comparing the ratios between tests, but that doesnít necessarily mean the quantification is always proportionate. Are any of the tests in the chart the LabCorp test Dan swears by?

While researching this I read about how some blood tests (wasnít specifically about this one) are semi-quantitative in that they offer an approximation, maybe thatís the case here.
Agreed about proportionality. Dan's is the Elecsys 'S' version I mentioned before (see footnote https://files.labcorp.com/labcorp-d8/2020-12/L23586-1220-2_nex.pdf), and it says explicitly that it's semi-quantitative (https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164090/sars-cov-2-semi-quantitative-total-antibody-spike).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2021, 12:58:39 PM
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-adaptive-biotechnologies-t-detect-covid-test

Quote
Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization (EUA) for the T-Detect COVID Test developed by Adaptive Biotechnologies. The T-Detect COVID Test is a next generation sequencing based (NGS) test to aid in identifying individuals with an adaptive T cell immune response to SARS-CoV-2, indicating recent or prior infection with SARS-CoV-2.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 02:30:17 PM
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-adaptive-biotechnologies-t-detect-covid-test

Any advantages to this test over the existing tests on the market?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2021, 04:31:09 PM
My test gave me a number and still said that it's qualitative.

DiaSorin LIAISON SARS-CoV-2 S1/S2 IgG qualitative enzyme immunoassay.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: how on March 12, 2021, 04:47:54 PM
Are there certain antibodies test that can pick up immunity from the vaccine. On some of the labCorp tests it specifically says that it cannot detect antibodies caused by the vaccine.

Then thereís this one, which is not publicly available yet https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials (https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials)

Trying to help someone who tested negative for antibodies two weeks after the second dose. Not sure which test they took in Canada.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on March 12, 2021, 05:02:51 PM
Are there certain antibodies test that can pick up immunity from the vaccine. On some of the labCorp tests it specifically says that it cannot detect antibodies caused by the vaccine.

Then thereís this one, which is not publicly available yet https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials (https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials)

Trying to help someone who tested negative for antibodies two weeks after the second dose. Not sure which test they took in Canada.
The Labcorp Roche quant picks up vaccine immunity.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2021, 07:10:02 PM
Are there certain antibodies test that can pick up immunity from the vaccine. On some of the labCorp tests it specifically says that it cannot detect antibodies caused by the vaccine.

Then thereís this one, which is not publicly available yet https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials (https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials)

Trying to help someone who tested negative for antibodies two weeks after the second dose. Not sure which test they took in Canada.

Most tests are designed to detect natural immunity (antibodies from an infection).
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2021, 09:23:37 AM
Well. In June I got a "positive" antibody test (no numeric value). In October my antibody level on a test that gives a numeric reading were just below the threshold to be considered positive.

On 1/28 I got a low antibody reading on an Ortho VITOS SARS- CoVID-2 IgG kit

On 2/17 I got my first dose of Moderna vaccine.

On 2/21 I got a 6.9 Negative IGG where reference is < 9.0 (I was told that that test only detects/tests for naturally occurring antibodies, not those that show up as a result of a vaccine).

On 2/23 I got a 7763 IgG reading (results took almost 72 hours to come) where reference is 51-150 to be considered positive for someone previously recovered or vaccinated or over 150 to be considered positive without prior documented recovery or vaccination.

On 2/25 I got a 4810 reading (in about 6 hours) on a test where reference is > 15 to be considered positive.

On 3/14 got antibody test at NYC HHC results 23.03 where reference is > 0.99
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Moshe123 on March 15, 2021, 10:18:15 AM
You're testing for fun?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: yelped on March 15, 2021, 10:19:11 AM
You're testing for fun?
@TimT
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2021, 02:09:47 PM
You're testing for fun?

The fun of exposing the medical professionals/bureaucracy for what they are.

Mabye @biobook can answer this: How in the world do they know the efficacy of the vaccine? Why would one need 2 doses when antibodies are high after 1 dose?

Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Joe4007 on March 15, 2021, 02:13:58 PM
Are there certain antibodies test that can pick up immunity from the vaccine. On some of the labCorp tests it specifically says that it cannot detect antibodies caused by the vaccine.

Then thereís this one, which is not publicly available yet https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials (https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/news/labcorp-launches-quantitative-antibody-test-assess-effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-clinical-trials)

Trying to help someone who tested negative for antibodies two weeks after the second dose. Not sure which test they took in Canada.
Family member did a quest antibody test 11 days after receiving the J&J shot and tested negative, then tested positive on the same test a week later.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2021, 02:22:06 PM
The fun of exposing the medical professionals/bureaucracy for what they are.

Mabye @biobook can answer this: How in the world do they know the efficacy of the vaccine? Why would one need 2 doses when antibodies are high after 1 dose?

The literature that publishes clinical trial efficacy explains that. You might need background in biology/medicine/statistics to fully understand what youíre reading.

The 2nd dose in general is to boost antibodies, but FWIU it also affects immunity in the longer term. That second part (long term immunity) is more relevant to those who recovered from COVID.

Medical bureaucracy offers guidance based on what is known, and we donít have all the data yet. What we do know is that there are known concerns with regards to waiting for another dose could be problematic. How those will play out in the longer term with regards to COVID-vaccination is up in the air both regarding immunity data and the trajectory of the pandemic.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2021, 02:23:28 PM
On 3/14 got antibody test at NYC HHC results 23.03 where reference is > 0.99

That actually sounds low considering (IINM) the PDF shared upthread that offered a threshold for whatís considered high antibodies had 109 as the threshold for this test.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2021, 02:45:28 PM
That actually sounds low considering (IINM) the PDF shared upthread that offered a threshold for whatís considered high antibodies had 109 as the threshold for this test.

Based on that, I would be considered high and eligible for plasma donation

(https://i.imgur.com/gQbVsJr.png)

At what point was your result 109? How long after your recovered? Did you have any severe (or mildly severe) symptoms? [my symptoms last year were diarrhea for about two days, low grade fever for one day, loss of appetite and overall weakness (the latter two symptoms bringing about a nice ~20lbs drop in body weight, which was unfortunately since regained). I didn't lose taste or smell (though I disliked seltzer for a couple of weeks), nor did I have any difficulty breathing or coughing.]
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2021, 02:51:34 PM
Based on that, I would be considered high and eligible for plasma donation

(https://i.imgur.com/gQbVsJr.png)

At what point was your result 109? How long after your recovered? Did you have any severe (or mildly severe) symptoms? [my symptoms last year were diarrhea for about two days, low grade fever for one day, loss of appetite and overall weakness (the latter two symptoms bringing about a nice ~20lbs drop in body weight, which was unfortunately since regained). I didn't lose taste or smell (though I disliked seltzer for a couple of weeks), nor did I have any difficulty breathing or coughing.]

Isn't the NYC HHS test the Roche Elecsys Anti-SARS-CoV-2 (not Abbott)? The chart you screenshotted shows COI of >109 to be considered high titer for the Roche test I'm referring to.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: sams on March 18, 2021, 05:11:57 PM
are Most ppl r still having antibodies close to year  later?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: sams on March 18, 2021, 07:48:24 PM
are Most ppl r still having antibodies close to year  later?
Q is for someone who has covid in his household ,seeing how to deal
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: AsherO on March 18, 2021, 09:09:33 PM
Q is for someone who has covid in his household ,seeing how to deal

Entire family should quarantine for 10 days from onset of symptoms, and until they are without fever for 24 hours.

If possible patient should isolate, especially if there are seniors or other at-risk people on the household, and certainly if they didnít have COVID in the past 6-8 months. Family doctor should be consulted for details on what and how long.

Refuah Sheleima to all.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: ShimshonK on March 18, 2021, 11:57:36 PM
Q is for someone who has covid in his household ,seeing how to deal
Entire family should quarantine for 10 days from onset of symptoms, and until they are without fever for 24 hours.

If possible patient should isolate, especially if there are seniors or other at-risk people on the household, and certainly if they didnít have COVID in the past 6-8 months. Family doctor should be consulted for details on what and how long.

Refuah Sheleima to all.
And to be clear, if the family does not separate from each other, the timeline for the exposed family members wouldn't start until the end of the covid patient's 10 days.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: etech0 on March 18, 2021, 11:59:44 PM
And to be clear, if the family does not separate from each other, the timeline for the exposed family members wouldn't start until the end of the covid patient's 10 days.
If that's the case, it may be worth testing individual family members in case they are presymptomatic, so you can start counting earlier. As always, ask your doctor.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 11:21:23 AM
6 negative Covid tests, 6 negative antibody tests (despite me having gotten the vaccine and my wife having tested positive!!)
Where/what type?
https://www.fda.gov/media/137603/download
Vaccinated (2nd dose?) when? Tested positive when?
Tested positive 12/29
Second shot 1/17
Anyone with any theories in this? Problem with the antibody testing? Problem with my shot? False positive for my wife on covid test?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 05, 2021, 11:23:24 AM
Anyone with any theories in this? Problem with the antibody testing? Problem with my shot? False positive for my wife on covid test?
False positive COVID test is certainly a possibility.
Not all antibody tests detect the vaccine's antibodies.
Try the Roche semi quant at Labcorp/Walgreens (You'll need an Rx from a Dr for Labcorp test 164090)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 05, 2021, 11:46:22 AM
Anyone with any theories in this? Problem with the antibody testing? Problem with my shot? False positive for my wife on covid test?
Faulty antibody test is the only option that answers all the questions, so probably the most likely, IMHO.

False positive COVID test is certainly a possibility.
Not all antibody tests detect the vaccine's antibodies.
You'd have to assume both of those are true, which may be, but a false positive COVID test is much less likely than a false negative antibodies test.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 11:46:47 AM
False positive COVID test is certainly a possibility.
Not all antibody tests detect the vaccine's antibodies.
Try the Roche semi quant at Labcorp/Walgreens (You'll need an Rx from a Dr for Labcorp test 164090)
Free at Walgreens?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 05, 2021, 11:47:47 AM
Free at Walgreens?
~$50, but free with most insurance
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 11:52:14 AM
Faulty antibody test is the only option that answers all the questions, so probably the most likely, IMHO.
My wife also had a negative antibody test on January 15th (though at the time, we chalked that up to being too early)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 11:52:58 AM
~$50, but free with most insurance
(no insurance). Anyways, I'm working today, so not really worth my time.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 05, 2021, 11:53:55 AM
Takes all of 3 minutes in walgreens.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 11:54:47 AM
Takes all of 3 minutes in walgreens.
Not that interested to spend $50 on it. I'll get an antibody test in Israel
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 05, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
Are there quant tests there?
No charge?
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 12:17:47 PM
Are there quant tests there?
No charge?
Free from the kupah with a doctor's referral (I'm eligible because I lived with someone who tested "postive"). I don't think it's a quant test though
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 12:19:55 PM
Do you have a link for Walgreens antibody testing, can't seem to find it
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 05, 2021, 12:23:44 PM
Just walk into any labcorp with an Rx, they're in most walgreens these days. Can also make an appointment on labcorp.com.

https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164090/sars-cov-2-semi-quantitative-total-antibody-spike
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2021, 12:25:38 PM
Just walk into any labcorp with an Rx, they're in most walgreens these days. Can also make an appointment on labcorp.com.

https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164090/sars-cov-2-semi-quantitative-total-antibody-spike
Unfortunately not at any of the walgreens within 10 minutes of me. Too much effort
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Shmulie on April 16, 2021, 11:56:58 AM
How long does it take to get results for the LabCorp test
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 16, 2021, 12:11:01 PM
How long does it take to get results for the LabCorp test
For the quant test? A couple days.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Shmulie on April 19, 2021, 11:16:15 AM
For the quant test? A couple days.

I got the labcorp test done on Friday afternoon and just got the results
apparently I have >250.00, no idea if that's high or not but I think >80 is considered positive

For reference I tested positive for Covid about a week after purim 2020, so this is after a year
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs69trRQ/Screen-Shot-2021-04-19-at-11-19-18-AM.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Dan on April 19, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
I got the labcorp test done on Friday afternoon and just got the results
apparently I have >250.00, no idea if that's high or not but I think >80 is considered positive
Greater than 0.8 is positive.
Greater than 250 is off the charts high.

I had 192.6 in January, some 11 months after I had COVID. I'm pretty sure I'd test at greater than 250 now after bring vaccinated.
Title: Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
Post by: Shmulie on April 19, 2021, 11:21:58 AM
Greater than 0.8 is positive.
Greater than 250 is off the charts high.

I had 192.6 in January, some 11 months after I had COVID. I'm pretty sure I'd test at greater than 250 now after bring vaccinated.

You're right I didn't notice the "."