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DansDeals Forum => Politics => Topic started by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:23:14 PM

Title: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:23:14 PM
This one was a shocker to me.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/sports-world-reacts-to-nascar-banning-confederate-flag/ar-BB15jx6B?ocid=spartanntp

Now there will be a movement to ban all Confederate Flags!
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 10, 2020, 10:25:08 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:28:52 PM
Yes.
I am trying to find a way to disagree with you but am failing.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: yungermanchik on June 10, 2020, 10:29:08 PM
Are Have we they going gone too far?
FTFY
Yes.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: mmgfarb on June 10, 2020, 10:32:24 PM
Can a mod please fix the title? This is driving me mad. @Dan @jj1000 @Something Fishy
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: yitzgar on June 10, 2020, 10:33:12 PM
Pretty shocking. I would've thought they'd be one the last holdouts...
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:33:26 PM
FTFY
It is not just "they". Is NASCAR part of "they"?
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 10, 2020, 10:46:16 PM
Can we ban the NHL for being too white?
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:47:41 PM
Can we ban the NHL for being too white?
It has to do with cost.
Why do you think the NBA is dominated by black athletes?
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 10:48:54 PM
I'd imagine that the Confederate flag to a black person would be like a Jew seeing a Nazi flag. I sure wouldn't feel comfortable at events with the Nazi flag flying.

Why does the Confederate flag still have a place in today's society other than on statues or in museums?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:52:51 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/media/gone-with-the-wind-hbo-max/index.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 10:53:30 PM
I'd imagine that the Confederate flag to a black person would be like a Jew seeing a Nazi flag. I sure wouldn't feel comfortable at events with the Nazi flag flying.

Why does the Confederate flag still have a place in today's society other than on statues or in museums?
Terrible comparison. In any case Southerners are very proud of their heritage.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 10:55:54 PM
Terrible comparison. In any case Southerners are very proud of their heritage.
Enlighten me?
Heritage of slavery? Isn't that why the confederacy was born and eliminated? Plenty of great heritage in the south, but why does the Confederate flag represent it?
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: mmgfarb on June 10, 2020, 10:56:09 PM

Thank you @Dan
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:57:22 PM
Terrible comparison. In any case Southerners are very proud of their heritage.
Many southerners say that. How did the flag come about?
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 10:58:07 PM
Thank you @Dan
What did I miss?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:04:04 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/christopher-columbus-statues-torn-down-drenched-in-paint-defaced-in-cities-across-country/ar-BB15jBDs?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 11:04:26 PM
Enlighten me?
Heritage of slavery? Isn't that why the confederacy was born and eliminated? Plenty of great heritage in the south, but why does the Confederate flag represent it?
Erm no. They were pro states doing what they want. Flag was born to represent the southern trying to keep their freedom from the northern aggression. Part of the south was pro slavery and therefore people say that it was it represents and it racist. But  its just m ajor revisionist history. And now in the south it represents a southern way of life and not having a way of life forced on you. And Kind of what's happening now.... thats probably why people are so against.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 10, 2020, 11:05:26 PM
Since when do you guys condone participation trophies?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 10, 2020, 11:06:49 PM
Erm no. They were pro states doing what they want. Flag was born to represent the southern trying to keep their freedom from the northern aggression. Part of the south was pro slavery and therefore thats what they say it represents and it racist. But its major revisionist history. And now in the south it represents a southern way of life and not having a way of life forced on you. And Kind of what's happening now.... thats probably why people are so against.
The northern aggression that they actual won an election. The nerve.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:07:48 PM
Erm no. They were pro states doing what they want. Flag was born to represent the southern trying to keep their freedom from the northern aggression. Part of the south was pro slavery and therefore thats what they say it represents and it racist. But its major revisionist history. And now in the south it represents a southern way of life and not having a way of life forced on you. And Kind of what's happening now.... thats probably why people are so against.
Meh.
The Confederacy was born to preserve slavery when Lincoln won and they thought the north would free the slaves.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: mmgfarb on June 10, 2020, 11:08:14 PM
What did I miss?
The letter "O"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 11:08:21 PM
The northern aggression that they actual won an election. The nerve.
Say what you want but what is happening now is a play by play of the pre civil war era
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:10:24 PM
The letter "O"
Get a life.
I thought I used "our".
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:14:59 PM
Say what you want but what is happening now is a play by play of the pre civil war era
Talking about
Terrible comparison.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: mmgfarb on June 10, 2020, 11:15:48 PM
Get a life.
I thought I used "our".
I have a life, quite a good one if I don't say so myself. One in which the letter "O" is used exactly as often as it is supposed to be, no more, no less.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 10, 2020, 11:20:31 PM
I have a life, quite a good one if I don't say so myself. One in which the letter "O" is used exactly as often as it is supposed to be, no more, no less.
Be careful before the grammar police come after you. I've heard they have some systemic biases.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:23:06 PM
Now there will be a movement to ban all Confederate Flags!
Don't see how that would be compatible with 1A.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:25:01 PM
Don't see how that would be compatible with 1A.
I was thinking that as I was reading about NASCAR.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:26:23 PM
I was thinking that as I was reading about NASCAR.
Private business can do what they want.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:28:22 PM
Private business can do what they want.
They are open to the public. What if they decided to ban the American Flag.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:28:59 PM
They are open to the public. What if they decided to ban the American Flag.  :)
I'm lost.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:32:05 PM
I'm lost.
Will have to look it up. IIRC one of the rulings about the boy scouts had to do with them being open to the public.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 10, 2020, 11:32:35 PM
Talking about
Lol. But think about it, america is splitting down the middle, one side driving hard to the left and one hard to the right. The left is making everyone apologize for everything, be tolerant and so far to the left that you can topple over. Its gonna come a time when people are going to get fed up with being told how to live, what to say, how to walk, what you can post online,  anarchy and lawlessness in the streets.... scary if you think about it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: mmgfarb on June 10, 2020, 11:39:23 PM
Be careful before the grammar police come after you. I've heard they have some systemic biases.
L.O.L.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:42:38 PM
This one was a shocker to me.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/sports-world-reacts-to-nascar-banning-confederate-flag/ar-BB15jx6B?ocid=spartanntp
They are going all in.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/nascar-to-allow-peaceful-protests-during-national-anthem/ar-BB15jkPn
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 10, 2020, 11:44:42 PM
They are going all in.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/nascar-to-allow-peaceful-protests-during-national-anthem/ar-BB15jkPn
Sounds weird to me, sounds like the higher ups dont understand who their fan base is. I wouldnt be shocked if the drivers start making a ruckus about this
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 10, 2020, 11:47:07 PM
Sounds weird to me, sounds like the higher ups dont understand who their fan base is. I wouldnt be shocked if the drivers start making a ruckus about thiu
The tide is turning. The drivers also came out in support of BLM.
https://www.sohh.com/nascar-race-car-driver-official-stand-for-black-lives-matter-at-sundays-atlanta-cup-race/
I don't have to tell you who is losing his base.  ;)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 10, 2020, 11:49:18 PM
The tide is turning. The drivers also came out in support of BLM.
🤷🏻‍♂️
I give up, this world is nuts.
Cant predict anything anymore
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 10, 2020, 11:53:34 PM
I'd imagine that the Confederate flag to a black person would be like a Jew seeing a Nazi flag. I sure wouldn't feel comfortable at events with the Nazi flag flying.

Why does the Confederate flag still have a place in today's society other than on statues or in museums?
Where will it stop? Next their gonna abolish the constitution and anything done during the first 100 yrs if this country because they were all slave owners
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:55:17 PM
Where will it stop? Next their gonna abolish the constitution and anything done during the first 100 yrs if this country because they were all slave owners
Sure, that's the exactly same thing as a flag and a movement that was created to keep slavery legal and secede from the country.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 10, 2020, 11:56:26 PM
Sure, that's the exactly same thing as a flag and a movement that was created to keep slavery legal and secede from the country.
Do you really think theyll stop at just banning the flag? Common, your smarter than that.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 10, 2020, 11:58:14 PM
Do you really think theyll stop at just banning the flag? Common, your smarter than that.
Who is this nebulous "they."
Sure, some people will hate the founders. No, companies aren't about to take action on that or on the US flag.
The lack of nuance found here is amazing.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 11, 2020, 12:03:44 AM
Im referring to the fringe far left groups that seem to slowly be making inroads into main stream democrat policy. Who woulda thunk just a short while ago that it would be main stream democrat policy to defund the police? Im not saying tomorrow theyll abolish the constitution, but its prob one of their long term goals
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 12:04:28 AM
Who woulda thunk just a short while ago that it would be main stream democrat policy to defund the police?
Breaking news: It's not.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 11, 2020, 12:07:10 AM
Breaking news: It's not.
Mayors of the 2 biggest cities and I assume many Dems on Capitol Hill, doesnt seem so fringe to me.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 11, 2020, 12:08:35 AM
Breaking news: It's not.
At this point maybe dismantling the police like Omar said, thats fringe. But to defund the police is not fringe
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2020, 12:19:50 AM
Sure, some people will hate the founders. No, companies aren't about to take action on that or on the US flag.

Nike pulled a pair of shoes that had the Betsy Ross flag (if I remember correctly, after it had already been shipped to stores)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shmobaum on June 11, 2020, 12:21:39 AM
Keep the political correctness stuff coming and watch Donald cruise to his second term
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 11, 2020, 12:39:29 AM
YES
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Moshe123 on June 11, 2020, 12:40:37 AM
Hilarious.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/business/walmart-black-hair-beauty-products.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 11, 2020, 12:47:05 AM
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/491422-i-my-colleagues-are-quitting-as-us-police-officers/
Really really scary... @Dan this is what I'm talking about.

"Your belief in hashtags and memes over the truth has and will create an environment in your community that you will never expect.
If you think Minneapolis will never turn into Mogadishu its coming.
And when it does, remember what your complicity did.
This is the America that you made."
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 12:49:47 AM
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/491422-i-my-colleagues-are-quitting-as-us-police-officers/
Really really scary... @Dan this is what I'm talking about.
I don't click on foreign propaganda sites, sorry.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 11, 2020, 12:50:59 AM
I don't click on foreign propaganda sites, sorry.
https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/
Here it is on an American site
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 12:56:18 AM
https://www.lawofficer.com/america-we-are-leaving/
Here it is on an American site
The vilification of all cops is something that has swung too far, definitely more meaningful that Nascar banning a slavery flag.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 11, 2020, 12:58:56 AM
The vilification of all cops is something that has swung too far, definitely more meaningful that Nascar banning a slavery flag.
Its the same guys same movement...... this part of a bigger picture. These aren't random isolated incidents. We see 2 weeks of endless rioting looting, stores being robbed of millions and politicians want to get rid of law enforcement. At this rate we won't have a country left much longer
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
politicians want to get rid of law enforcement
Lol, you really do like weakening your point, don't you?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 11, 2020, 01:12:10 AM
Lol, you really do like weakening your point, don't you?
That was a build up showing the irony of cities burning down and politicians wanting to get rid of cops which is the only reason that these cities aren't completely destroyed now. Wasn't weakening in the slightest
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Baruch on June 11, 2020, 01:18:48 AM
Erm no. They were pro states doing what they want. Flag was born to represent the southern trying to keep their freedom from the northern aggression. Part of the south was pro slavery and therefore people say that it was it represents and it racist. But  its just m ajor revisionist history. And now in the south it represents a southern way of life and not having a way of life forced on you. And Kind of what's happening now.... thats probably why people are so against.
The way of life that was forced on them, was not to enslave blacks.
Should a soap factory use a Nazi flag, to show they like making soap like the Nazis?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
Keep the political correctness stuff coming and watch Donald cruise to his second term
If PC is gassing peaceful protesters then he is digging his own grave.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 11, 2020, 07:43:18 AM
Where will it stop? Next their gonna abolish the constitution and anything done during the first 100 yrs if this country because they were all slave owners
Yup, people tore down a Columbus statue yesterday ....
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 07:48:23 AM
Anyone know the answer to this? Does Germany have statues of Nazi generals all over public places in their country?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 08:01:16 AM
This is what you call conviction!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/nascar-truck-racer-ray-ciccarelli-says-hes-quitting-after-confederate-flag-ban/ar-BB15j5QA?ocid=spartanntp

Will quit after the season is over. It is not important enough to quit now.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 11, 2020, 08:09:11 AM
This is what you call conviction!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/nascar-truck-racer-ray-ciccarelli-says-hes-quitting-after-confederate-flag-ban/ar-BB15j5QA?ocid=spartanntp

Will quit after the season is over. It is not important enough to quit now.  :)
Its called commitment, doesnt want to let his team down on middle of a season
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
Its called commitment, doesnt want to let his team down on middle of a season
ROFLMAO!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: shwarmabob on June 11, 2020, 08:47:49 AM
Anyone know the answer to this? Does Germany have statues of Nazi generals all over public places in their country?
No, they don't. The Nazis ruled Germany only for 12 years. Part of Left in the US rejects hundreds of years of US history, and for good measure the entire Western civilization.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2020, 03:41:29 PM
About the progressive strategist who was fired for tweeting a study showing the protesting peacefully was a better strategy than the recent Peaceful Protests.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/06/case-for-liberalism-tom-cotton-new-york-times-james-bennet.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: jj1000 on June 11, 2020, 03:57:23 PM
No, they don't. The Nazis ruled Germany only for 12 years. Part of Left in the US rejects hundreds of years of US history, and for good measure the entire Western civilization.
How many years did the confederacy rule? Hint, much less than 12 years...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: shwarmabob on June 11, 2020, 04:54:38 PM
How many years did the confederacy rule? Hint, much less than 12 years...
The groups that tear down General Lee and Columbus will eventually tear down Ulysses S. Grant and George Washington too
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 05:15:26 PM
The groups that tear down General Lee and Columbus will eventually tear down Ulysses S. Grant and George Washington too
Maybe but the point I was making I think is clear.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2020, 05:16:23 PM
The groups that tear down General Lee and Columbus will eventually tear down Ulysses S. Grant and George Washington too

Ahh the famous slippery slope.
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2020, 05:26:41 PM
I'd imagine that the Confederate flag to a black person would be like a Jew seeing a Nazi flag. I sure wouldn't feel comfortable at events with the Nazi flag flying.

Why does the Confederate flag still have a place in today's society other than on statues or in museums?

The only argument that I can see is if it now represents something other than the confederacy. There are plenty of examples of symbols going the other way (from ok to unacceptable) such as the swastika (and the magen david for some...)

I don't know enough about the history of the confederate flag to say if that is the case here.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 11, 2020, 05:28:28 PM
The only argument that I can see is if it now represents something other than the confederacy. There are plenty of examples of symbols going the other way (from ok to unacceptable) such as the swastika (and the magen david for some...)

I don't know enough about the history of the confederate flag to say if that is the case here.
Swastika existed before the Nazis took it over.
Confederate flag came into existence specifically for slavery, so if anything it's worse according to that logic.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2020, 05:38:54 PM
Swastika existed before the Nazis took it over.

Right that's my point. Just like the Nazis "co-opted" a symbol that meant something else (and now the symbol has completely lost its original meaning), Southerners can claim that they took a flag that was once the symbol of slavery/confederacy and now it means something else.

I'm not saying that I agree, only that it is a possibility.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 11, 2020, 05:41:39 PM
Right that's my point. Just like the Nazis "co-opted" a symbol that meant something else (and now the symbol has completely lost its original meaning), Southerners can claim that they took a flag that was once the symbol of slavery/confederacy and now it means something else.
Fair enough, what does it mean now? I guessing they mean after the KKK took it over.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2020, 06:17:12 PM
/thread
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on June 12, 2020, 08:28:07 AM
/thread
Really scary. The issue with this, is that this attitude is only getting more and more prevalent. Are we still in America, land of free and healthy debates? It seems like this trend to silence anyone not conforming with some radical outlook and sentencing them to a virtual death sentence is only accelerating.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 12, 2020, 08:41:52 AM
so lets sum it up
Christopher Columbus
was a Nazi perhaps as bad as Hitler YM"SH
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 12, 2020, 09:18:28 AM
so lets sum it up
Christopher Columbus Trump
was a Nazi perhaps as bad as Hitler YM"SH
FTFY  :P
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2020, 09:57:16 AM
Really scary. The issue with this, is that this attitude is only getting more and more prevalent. Are we still in America, land of free and healthy debates? It seems like this trend to silence anyone not conforming with some radical outlook and sentencing them to a virtual death sentence is only accelerating.
+1, way better example than OP :P
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 12, 2020, 10:30:43 AM
Really scary. The issue with this, is that this attitude is only getting more and more prevalent. Are we still in America, land of free and healthy debates? It seems like this trend to silence anyone not conforming with some radical outlook and sentencing them to a virtual death sentence is only accelerating.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=117325.0
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 12, 2020, 05:48:47 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/starbucks-to-allow-baristas-to-wear-black-lives-matter-attire-and-accessories-after-backlash/ar-BB15oyDC?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: shwarmabob on June 15, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
It didn't take long:
Bostons mayor says hes considering taking down a statue of former President Abraham Lincoln standing before a freed black man after a petition was launched for its removal.

Mayor Marty Walshs office said hes willing to engage in a dialogue with the community about its future in Boston and looking into the process required to make the change, news station WCVB reported.

The statue, which is situated in the citys Park Square, is a replica of the Emancipation Memorial in Washington and shows Lincoln with one hand raised above a kneeling man with broken shackles on his wrists.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/boston-considers-removing-statue-of-lincoln-with-freed-slave/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 15, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
It didn't take long:
Bostons mayor says hes considering taking down a statue of former President Abraham Lincoln standing before a freed black man after a petition was launched for its removal.

Mayor Marty Walshs office said hes willing to engage in a dialogue with the community about its future in Boston and looking into the process required to make the change, news station WCVB reported.

The statue, which is situated in the citys Park Square, is a replica of the Emancipation Memorial in Washington and shows Lincoln with one hand raised above a kneeling man with broken shackles on his wrists.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/boston-considers-removing-statue-of-lincoln-with-freed-slave/

Ahh the famous slippery slope.
Any comment @aygart ?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ergel on June 17, 2020, 09:26:44 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/business/aunt-jemima-logo-change/index.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 11:45:41 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/business/aunt-jemima-logo-change/index.html
Use to use it all the time but switched to Log Cabin.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 04:37:11 PM
Wow!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-charged-with-felony-murder/ar-BB15CkiF?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 17, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
Wow!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/officer-who-shot-rayshard-brooks-charged-with-felony-murder/ar-BB15CkiF?ocid=spartanntp
we live in a crazy world where mobs and looters rule
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 04:57:42 PM
we live in a crazy world where mobs and looters rule
...and what does that have to do with this man being murdered?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 17, 2020, 05:11:00 PM
...and what does that have to do with this man being murdered?
nothing

it has to do with the cop being fired investigation pending and then being charged for doing what he was trained to do
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
nothing

it has to do with the cop being fired investigation pending and then being charged for doing what he was trained to do
He wasn't trained to use poor judgement.
I already said there should have been an investigation before being fired.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 17, 2020, 05:23:59 PM
He wasn't trained to use poor judgement.
I already said there should have been an investigation before being fired.
I don't know what qualifications you have (in JS) but I heard from a srgt that they're trained to shoot in such cases.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 17, 2020, 05:26:39 PM
I don't know what qualifications you have (in JS) but I heard from a srgt that they're trained to shoot in such cases.
Yes you will hear that from many in blue. They stick together 99.9% of the time.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 17, 2020, 05:46:45 PM
Yes you will hear that from many in blue. They stick together 99.9% of the time.
Who should I listen to? the looters  ::)
Title: Re: Are we going to far?
Post by: fineguy on June 17, 2020, 05:51:51 PM
{DELETED BY MODS}
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: fineguy on June 17, 2020, 06:13:16 PM
{DELETED BY MODS}
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 17, 2020, 06:37:52 PM


Hi @Shkop
Bye @Shkop

Please troll the YWN coffee room in the future.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 17, 2020, 06:38:12 PM
Article by Rabbi Avi Shafran. He's usually excellent although havent yet gotten a chance to read this article. He wrote Hamodia op Ed's for years....


What does Jewish tradition say about Defund the Police? Its complicated.

https://forward.com/opinion/448652/what-does-jewish-tradition-say-about-defund-the-police-its-complicated/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 17, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Hi @Shkop
Bye @Shkop

Please troll the YWN coffee room in the future.
Lol

@Shkop send regards to @papabarabba ;) if he's still around.

@Dan I think on DDF they usually ask "Link?"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on June 17, 2020, 07:29:35 PM
Are you seriously comparing slavery in the Torah to slavery in America?!?
Good grief. Go learn what Biblical slavery was and then go open a history book.
I think  Every Man A Slave by Sender Zeyv (https://www.israelbookshoppublications.com/store/pc/Every-Man-a-Slave-p780.htm) should be required reading because it compares and contrasts these things very well.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 17, 2020, 08:24:57 PM
I think Every Man A Slave by Sender Zeyv should be required reading because it compares and contrast these things very well. https://www.israelbookshoppublications.com/store/pc/Every-Man-a-Slave-p780.htm
And don't forget the sequel, Gone West (https://www.israelbookshoppublications.com/store/pc/Gone-West-p781.htm), which was serialized in the Mishpacha Magazine a few years ago.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on June 17, 2020, 08:36:52 PM
And don't forget the sequel, Gone West (https://www.israelbookshoppublications.com/store/pc/Gone-West-p781.htm), which was serialized in the Mishpacha Magazine a few years ago.
Now we're really off-topic, but I think that one doesn't hold a candle to the original.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Something Fishy on June 17, 2020, 09:32:57 PM
On the subject of Sender Zeyv, Aleph Shin is a good but weird read (and slightly creepy, given 9/11 shortly after the book came out). Of course the sequel (Ten Lost) is just off the deep end but still a somewhat enjoyable read.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 17, 2020, 10:04:05 PM
Hi @Shkop
Bye @Shkop

Please troll the YWN coffee room in the future.
Gotta change his location from everywhere to everywhere but here
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 17, 2020, 11:32:02 PM
Now we're really off-topic, but I think that one doesn't hold a candle to the original.
Honestly, I didn't read those two books, I was just pointing out that there was a sequel...

On the subject of Sender Zeyv, Aleph Shin is a good but weird read (and slightly creepy, given 9/11 shortly after the book came out). Of course the sequel (Ten Lost) is just off the deep end but still a somewhat enjoyable read.
Aleph Shin is a great book IMO. I view the sequel as the commentary on the first book, and something that should only be read by superfans who want to delve into every detail of the book. Otherwise, just skip it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on June 18, 2020, 12:28:10 AM
on that topic, someone gotta link to where "2020 vision" was recently referenced on DDF
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 21, 2020, 03:20:50 AM
Swastika existed before the Nazis took it over.
Confederate flag came into existence specifically for slavery, so if anything it's worse according to that logic.
do you have a cleaning lady?

give it some time and you'll be compared to Hitler YM"SH

slavery was a way of life, no one did it to be bad to others, that was not the intent rather normalcy, VS hitler YM"SH was there to wipe you out
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 04:03:22 AM
Hi @Shkop
Bye @Shkop

Please troll the YWN coffee room in the future.
What prompted this after 30 posts?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ergel on June 21, 2020, 09:32:09 AM
do you have a cleaning lady?

give it some time and you'll be compared to Hitler YM"SH

slavery was a way of life, no one did it to be bad to others, that was not the intent rather normalcy, VS hitler YM"SH was there to wipe you out
I agree for some it is how you describe, but you really need to learn more history if you think that many (most) treated blacks as pure property and not people. And were viciously violent towards said "property"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 21, 2020, 09:40:10 AM
slavery was a way of life, no one did it to be bad to others,
Simply untrue. Abuse was rampant and punishments were draconian.
I don't understand the comparison to hired help at all. Are they being abused or forced to stay?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 21, 2020, 09:41:24 AM
What prompted this after 30 posts?
I wasn't paying close enough attention.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 21, 2020, 09:47:26 AM
slavery was a way of life, no one did it to be bad to others, that was not the intent rather normalcy, VS hitler YM"SH was there to wipe you out
Was raping women and lynching that part of life.
I really feel bad for individuals that know nothing about our history. They come across as a racist when they just don't know/understand.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 21, 2020, 09:56:06 AM
Was raping women and lynching that part of life.
I really feel bad for individuals that know nothing about our history. They come across as a racist when they just don't know/understand.
+1K
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 21, 2020, 10:01:45 AM
Simply untrue. Abuse was rampant and punishments were draconian.
I don't understand the comparison to hired help at all. Are they being abused or forced to stay?
Was raping women and lynching that part of life.
I really feel bad for individuals that know nothing about our history. They come across as a racist when they just don't know/understand.
+1k.

(Everyone should like these posts. To be extra safe, you should reply to them with a "+1k".

There will come a time in history when you will be outed as a racist for taking part in this conversation and not openly agreeing with this sentiment.)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 21, 2020, 10:33:07 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 10:36:39 AM
+1k.

(Everyone should like these posts. To be extra safe, you should reply to them with a "+1k".

There will come a time in history when you will be outed as a racist for taking part in this conversation and not openly agreeing with this sentiment.)
+1k
After all "silence is violence."
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 10:37:22 AM
Might have to take down some pictures from my wall.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 21, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on June 21, 2020, 09:30:31 PM

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 21, 2020, 11:29:25 PM
Is Theodore Roosevelt NP to be renamed as well?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on June 21, 2020, 11:41:47 PM
So basically the liberals wanna do in the US what ISIS did in Palmyra. In hundred years from now will our grandchildren only see statues of AOC?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 22, 2020, 12:03:07 AM
So basically the liberals wanna do in the US what ISIS did in Palmyra. In hundred years from now will our grandchildren only see statues of AOC?
Are you crazy? AOC was a bigot and a racist. She implied that green is somehow better than other colors! #EqualityForAllColors
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 12:15:40 AM
Is Theodore Roosevelt NP to be renamed as well?
MT Rushmore is next.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Joeymc on June 22, 2020, 03:38:27 AM
Was raping women and lynching that part of life.
I really feel bad for individuals that know nothing about our history. They come across as a racist when they just don't know/understand.
+1000

I think majority of people that seem/are racist is because of ignorance rather than actually having something against that race.

This applies across the board.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Joeymc on June 22, 2020, 03:39:51 AM
I think  Every Man A Slave by Sender Zeyv (https://www.israelbookshoppublications.com/store/pc/Every-Man-a-Slave-p780.htm) should be required reading because it compares and contrasts these things very well.
I read that book, it's really fascinating.

I think I should read it again.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: m65 on June 22, 2020, 04:46:08 AM
i think we should just rename all presidents from 1776 and on Barack Obama
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 08:32:02 AM
i think we should just rename all presidents from 1776 and on Barack Obama
BO ancestors were slave owners, not slaves.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 22, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
Instead of constant complaining you might want to ask yourself how did we get to this point.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on June 22, 2020, 08:39:34 AM
BO ancestors were slave owners, not slaves.

But he self-identifies as black, so none of that matters.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 22, 2020, 09:05:53 AM
Instead of constant complaining you might want to ask yourself how did we get to this point.
Far left liberals
look no further
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 09:54:46 AM
Far left liberals
look no further
+100. Until they came along complaining and being offended by everything nobody had problems with confederate flag or any of these things.
And blm and all turning the world upside down for what?
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicago-fathers-day-weekend-shootings-homicide-gun-violence-june-19-22
More stuff like this, systemic rascim made them do it. What a messed up country where people are sympathizing with them and many saying they are right
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 22, 2020, 10:32:37 AM
Far left liberals
look no further
+100. Until they came along complaining and being offended by everything nobody had problems with confederate flag or any of these things.
And blm and all turning the world upside down for what?
Keep thinking it is the other guy and things will only get worse.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 10:46:45 AM
Keep thinking it is the other guy and things will only get worse.
Do you see any republicans/conservatives shooting hundreds of people every day? Shooting fireworks? Tearing down statues of the founders of our country? Shooting our police Burning our flag?!?!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 22, 2020, 01:17:33 PM
Keep thinking it is the other guy and things will only get worse.
Agree!
Cant just only think its the other guy, gotta take action on the other guys. Its not gonna stop just by thinking
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 22, 2020, 02:34:15 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 04:38:56 PM
It won't stop.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Afrages6 on June 22, 2020, 04:41:16 PM
So basically the liberals wanna do in the US what ISIS did in Palmyra.
This +1000000
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 05:48:14 PM
Gotta love how Trump is the answer to all these problems, ignoring the fact that it's under his watch that they're happening
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 22, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
Gotta love how Trump is the answer to all these problems, ignoring the fact that it's under his watch that they're happening
If he stops it, hes a dictator
If he lets the local government take over than its still his fault
🤷🏻‍♂️

If this post wouldve come from anyone besides for you or @CountValentine Id write a longer answer, but you both seem to be in a late incurable stage of TDS
RFS bekarov mamesh
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 22, 2020, 06:09:39 PM
Gotta love how Trump is the answer to all these problems, ignoring the fact that it's under his watch that they're happening
so what are you saying? if trump leaves tomorrow all this nonsense will stop?  ;D ;D ;D

is he exasperating the problem?--i would say its more accurate to say both sides are exasperating the problem. its like a contest who can be more extreme. but this contest isnt going anywhere but forward so buckle up guys
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 22, 2020, 06:11:43 PM
Gotta love how Trump is the answer to all problems in the country, ignoring the fact that the Democrats that blame him for them have been in office for tens of years while's he's only in his 3rd year in office
FTFY
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 22, 2020, 06:18:45 PM
is he exasperating the problem?--i would say its more accurate to say both sides are exasperating the problem. its like a contest who can be more extreme. but this contest isnt going anywhere but forward so buckle up guys
Putin is definitely getting his money's worth
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on June 22, 2020, 06:38:36 PM
so what are you saying? if trump leaves tomorrow all this nonsense will stop?  ;D ;D ;D

is he exasperating the problem?--i would say its more accurate to say both sides are exasperating the problem. its like a contest who can be more extreme. but this contest isnt going anywhere but forward so buckle up guys
Lol. Took me a minute but I just realized you mean exacerbating  ;D
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 07:43:44 PM
https://youtu.be/TKc2qjrJhyc
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 22, 2020, 08:16:07 PM
https://youtu.be/TKc2qjrJhyc
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 22, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
Everyone just ignores what environment this is all festering in.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 08:20:50 PM
Everyone just ignores what environment this is all festering in.
The environment that let's these people on the streets and gives them a voice. If they were all in prison we wouldn't have these problems
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on June 22, 2020, 08:22:55 PM
Everyone just ignores what environment this is all festering in.
Surely you dont think this behavior is excusable in any way for any reason? Its disgusting and heinous.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yaakov35 on June 22, 2020, 08:24:35 PM
Surely you dont think this behavior is excusable in any way for any reason? Its disgusting and heinous.
They didn't have proper therapy when they grew up so we can't judge
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on June 22, 2020, 09:04:53 PM
They didn't have proper therapy when they grew up so we can't judge
We really do need that sarcasm emoji.
According to Google it's this: [emoji 854]!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 22, 2020, 09:08:31 PM
Lol. Took me a minute but I just realized you mean exacerbating  ;D
lol I have no clue how to spell 🤦‍♂️ My whole life I pronounced it the way I spelled it-oh well. Dont be such a grammarian around here  ;)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 22, 2020, 09:57:04 PM
Surely you dont think this behavior is excusable in any way for any reason? Its disgusting and heinous.
He is protesting systemic racism, seems legitimate to me.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: moish on June 23, 2020, 08:13:46 AM
lol I have no clue how to spell 🤦‍♂️ My whole life I pronounced it the way I spelled it-oh well. Dont be such a grammarian around here  ;)
It's not a spelling issue. You conflated two words, exasperate and exacerbate. Look up the definition of both, and you will know when to use each one.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on June 23, 2020, 08:45:17 AM
Everyone just ignores what environment this is all festering in.

Let me guess, Trump was president in 2013 and is a founder of BLM? Or you referring to the COVID environment where masses of people are bored and criminals never have to worry about returning to jail? Ive never seen more protests in my life, for camp, for not reopening, etc. People are simply bored.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 10:02:22 AM
MT Rushmore is next.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 10:15:05 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ergel on June 23, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
Funny cuz it's true
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 23, 2020, 12:30:06 PM
Let me guess, Trump was president in 2013 and is a founder of BLM? Or you referring to the COVID environment where masses of people are bored and criminals never have to worry about returning to jail? Ive never seen more protests in my life, for camp, for not reopening, etc. People are simply bored.
Combination of Trump pitting us against each other, pent up anger/frustration and covid-19. The trifecta.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 12:32:46 PM
Combination of Trump pitting us against each other, pent up anger/frustration and covid-19. The trifecta.
Love how 2009-2016 never happened.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: m65 on June 23, 2020, 12:53:53 PM
Combination of Trump pitting us against each other, pent up anger/frustration and covid-19. The trifecta.
its a combination of 400 years under the rule of donald trump
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 12:55:09 PM
its a combination of 400 years under the rule of donald trump
401 to be precise.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: m65 on June 23, 2020, 02:08:52 PM
401 to be precise.
maybe after 404, we'll get an error message that will allow it to continue
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 23, 2020, 03:39:49 PM
https://forward.com/news/national/449309/8-american-monuments-celebrating-anti-semites
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: username on June 23, 2020, 03:40:38 PM
How is this a thing in 2020.
New York.
Aren't you aware of what happened in York in 1190?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: username on June 23, 2020, 03:41:56 PM
Pennsylvania.
William Penn was a slave owner.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 03:46:35 PM
Pennsylvania.
William Penn was a slave owner.
So just remove the 'Penn' and call the state 'Sylvania'. I'm sure the light bulb company won't care.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 04:46:21 PM
https://forward.com/news/national/449309/8-american-monuments-celebrating-anti-semites
Are you in favor of removing them?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 23, 2020, 04:47:14 PM
Are you in favor of removing them?
Nope.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 04:48:18 PM
Nope.
+1
Curious what others think.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 04:54:43 PM
+1
Curious what others think.
I'm not a historian, but I think that not all of them are equal. I can hear the argument that some should be removed. But just because a guy hated Jews doesn't mean his statue should be removed. But if someone did more than just say things, there's more reason to take it down.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 04:57:35 PM
I'm not a historian, but I think that not all of them are equal. I can hear the argument that some should be removed. But just because a guy hated Jews doesn't mean his statue should be removed. But if someone did more than just say things, there's more reason to take it down.
How about the Arch of Titus?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 05:00:58 PM
How about the Arch of Titus?
Down.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 05:04:55 PM
Down.
I disagree.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 23, 2020, 05:10:31 PM
I disagree.
I think you might agree if you were alive during that time.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 23, 2020, 05:14:50 PM
Are you in favor of removing them?

I'm not a historian, but I think that not all of them are equal. I can hear the argument that some should be removed. But just because a guy hated Jews doesn't mean his statue should be removed. But if someone did more than just say things, there's more reason to take it down.

I would say that the distinction should be based on why statues are being made for them. If the actions they are being honored for are bad, I think they should be taken down. If, however, they are being honored for good that they did, I don't think they should be torn down because of their (unrelated) sins.

For example, I think a statue of Robert E. Lee at West Point (assuming they have statues of all their Superintendents) is fine in my eyes. That same statue at the South Carolina state house is inappropriate.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 05:17:02 PM
I think you might agree if you were alive during that time.
But we aren't.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 23, 2020, 05:19:54 PM
But we aren't.
no, the point is you would feel the distain for it more bc its closer, but there are plenty of people who still feel distain much later in history

for context, you probably wouldnt agree to a statue of Hitler ym's bc its closer to us-but maybe you actually would bc u werent around then (were you? :o)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 23, 2020, 05:22:52 PM
I disagree.
Hypothetically, do you think statues of Hitler should be allowed to stand in 2,000 years?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 23, 2020, 05:27:36 PM
Hypothetically, do you think statues of Hitler should be allowed to stand in 2,000 years?
no, the point is you would feel the distain for it more bc its closer, but there are plenty of people who still feel distain much later in history

for context, you probably wouldnt agree to a statue of Hitler ym's bc its closer to us-but maybe you actually would bc u werent around then (were you? :o)
great point! ;D
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on June 23, 2020, 05:32:55 PM
How about the Arch of Titus?
לכאורה down
ע' לקו"ש בנוגע המנורה ושפ בהע'
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 23, 2020, 05:52:36 PM
Hypothetically, do you think statues of Hitler should be allowed to stand in 2,000 years?
I would phrase it this way, are you in favor of destroying Nazi artifacts?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on June 23, 2020, 07:32:02 PM
So promising to stop lawlessness (that's exactly what this autonomous zone is) is now considered threatening and should be removed off Twitter? "Wiping Israel off the map" is ok with them?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on June 23, 2020, 07:34:28 PM
So promising to stop lawlessness (that's exactly what this autonomous zone is) is now considered threatening and should be removed off Twitter? "Wiping Israel off the map" is ok with them?
This is the most disturbing thing Ive seen all year.

PS: Its 2020.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on June 24, 2020, 07:57:48 AM
Who's the identifiable group?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yzj on June 24, 2020, 08:52:31 AM
https://m.jpost.com/international/top-chess-personalities-slam-abc-for-questioning-if-chess-is-racist-632604
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 24, 2020, 09:19:07 AM
Who's the identifiable group?
Had the same question.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 24, 2020, 10:05:12 AM
So right when you start thinking that Food Network is innocent enough, and we can really highlight their celebrities, you get this: Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 10:11:24 AM
So right when you start thinking that Food Network is innocent enough, and we can really highlight their celebrities, you get this: Invalid Tweet ID
Kids are 100% off limits especially the current presidents kids. Many we should all remember this when fathers day jokes are made about black kids.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: moish on June 24, 2020, 10:20:48 AM
I was pretty shocked when I saw a statue of Chmielnicki in Kiev. Would love for it to be taken down. However I'm against the effort to remove Judensau's from the churches in Germany. One is glorifying a mass murderer, while the other would be whitewashing history
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 11:01:45 AM
Kids are 100% off limits especially the current presidents kids. Many we should all remember this when fathers day jokes are made about black kids.
It is the deadbeat dads that are the issue.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 24, 2020, 12:30:25 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: FYI on June 24, 2020, 12:59:49 PM

Shaun King - 1/1024 black.
Elizabeth Warren - 1/1024 Indian.
Beto O'Rourke - 1/1024 Latino.
Colin Kaepernick - 1/1024 NFL star.
Jim Acosta - 1/1024 journalist.
Amy Klobuchar - 1/1024 pacifist.
Joe Biden - 1/1024 lucid.
Fredo Cuomo - 1/1024 anchor.
Al Gore - 1/1024 scientist.
Meghan Markle - 1/1024 TV star.
CNN - 1/1024 network.
Jussie Smolett - 1/1024 victim.
Richard Blumenthal - 1/1024 war hero.

Add Bubba Wallace.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on June 24, 2020, 01:03:45 PM
Shaun King - 1/1024 black.
Elizabeth Warren - 1/1024 Indian.
Beto O'Rourke - 1/1024 Latino.
Colin Kaepernick - 1/1024 NFL star.
Jim Acosta - 1/1024 journalist.
Amy Klobuchar - 1/1024 pacifist.
Joe Biden - 1/1024 lucid.
Fredo Cuomo - 1/1024 anchor.
Al Gore - 1/1024 scientist.
Meghan Markle - 1/1024 TV star.
CNN - 1/1024 network.
Jussie Smolett - 1/1024 victim.
Richard Blumenthal - 1/1024 war hero.

Add Bubba Wallace.

Do you think factual DDF posts would fit in that nice fraction list?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on June 24, 2020, 02:37:20 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 03:44:34 PM
It is the deadbeat dads that are the issue.
Has zero to do with go after the kids. That is part for the course for you and fits exactly with your picture!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.html
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nypost.com/2020/06/23/oregon-county-issues-face-mask-order-exempting-non-white-people/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwju6KvhzprqAhX9lXIEHWbEBxMQ0PADegQIBhAH&usg=AOvVaw2Is0rA-QaFwLpbKDecuoHf&ampcf=1
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 04:34:30 PM
Sad this has to be addressed because of these morons bring it up hoping it will happen.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/south-dakota-governor-on-taking-down-mount-rushmore-not-on-my-watch/ar-BB15UEEH?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 24, 2020, 09:23:17 PM
Following this logic it will be illegal to wear cotton and the next step will be banning the word "farm" in the USA
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/rhode-island-name-change-providence-plantations-slavery-connotations/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 09:27:44 PM
Following this logic it will be illegal to wear cotton and the next step will be banning the word "farm" in the USA
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/rhode-island-name-change-providence-plantations-slavery-connotations/
How about "Camps"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 09:29:35 PM
How about "Camps"
Yup, Banned too.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 09:29:55 PM
I guess the simple answer to the question is yes we have gone to far. Now we have to wait for it to swing so far one way so it then starts to start to swing the other way.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 24, 2020, 09:31:05 PM
I guess the simple answer to the question is yes we have gone to far. Now we have to wait for it to swing so far one way so it then starts to start to swing the other way.
YES
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 09:32:11 PM
I guess the simple answer to the question is yes we have gone to far. Now we have to wait for it to swing so far one way so it then starts to start to swing the other way.
I actually believe that Trump has somewhat caused the counter swing of the left that we're seeing now.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 24, 2020, 09:33:15 PM
I guess the simple answer to the question is yes we have gone to far. Now we have to wait for it to swing so far one way so it then starts to start to swing the other way.
Atlanta police's response almost was the counter-swing. But it lost steam too fast.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 09:33:26 PM
I actually believe that Trump has somewhat caused the counter swing
Counter swing?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on June 24, 2020, 09:35:16 PM
Counter swing?
See my edit. Pulling to the right will bounce the lefties to the far left.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 09:37:15 PM
See my edit. Pulling to the right will bounce the lefties to the far left.
Most of it is because (they hate him) of Trump. Problem is now it has a life of its own.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 24, 2020, 10:05:03 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-marshals-told-to-prepare-to-help-protect-monuments-nationwide-as-trump-targets-people-who-vandalize-structures-during-protests/2020/06/24/08588004-b67d-11ea-a8da-693df3d7674a_story.html%3FoutputType%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiTmIag8JvqAhWW4J4KHcZQB1MQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0OiEMIGneaHoh1Zaaz-4G9&ampcf=1
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 24, 2020, 10:08:18 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-marshals-told-to-prepare-to-help-protect-monuments-nationwide-as-trump-targets-people-who-vandalize-structures-during-protests/2020/06/24/08588004-b67d-11ea-a8da-693df3d7674a_story.html%3FoutputType%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiTmIag8JvqAhWW4J4KHcZQB1MQFjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0OiEMIGneaHoh1Zaaz-4G9&ampcf=1
It is illegal to deface the monuments but I am sure you and most here believe it is morally right to do?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on June 24, 2020, 11:07:36 PM
Following this logic it will be illegal to wear cotton and the next step will be banning the word "farm" in the USA
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/rhode-island-name-change-providence-plantations-slavery-connotations/

Quote
"Whatever the meaning of the term 'plantations' in the context of Rhode Island's history, it carries a horrific connotation when considering the tragic and racist history of our nation."

I don't where the name "Providence Plantations" came from, but from the fact that the article doesn't explain, I think it's safe to assume that it has nothing to do with slavery/racism.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 12:26:58 AM
I don't where the name "Providence Plantations" came from, but from the fact that the article doesn't explain, I think it's safe to assume that it has nothing to do with slavery/racism.
The quoted section of the article actually implies that it has nothing to do with slavery. If it had even the smallest connection they wouldve been all over it , not using "horrific connotations" 


As I said y'all better toss your cotton shirts!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on June 25, 2020, 12:41:30 AM
Most of it is because (they hate him) of Trump. Problem is now it has a life of its own.

Its the greatest gift they can give Trump right before the election, he can really use it after he botched up corona so badly.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: username on June 25, 2020, 12:47:32 AM
And the athiests are offended by providence.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 07:34:03 AM
Its the greatest gift they can give Trump right before the election, he can really use it after he botched up corona so badly.
...but he talks about Kung-flu and scaling back testing. He can't help himself.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 25, 2020, 05:16:31 PM
I guess the simple answer to the question is yes we have gone to far. Now we have to wait for it to swing so far one way so it then starts to start to swing the other way.
ah so you're familiar with the Rambam that says that to reverse a bad habit or behavior you must do the extreme opposite which will eventually pull you to the middle (which the optimal place a person should be )
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: keepsmiling123 on June 25, 2020, 05:40:36 PM
Not sure if posted here yet:
https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/disney-splash-mountain-criticized-racist-roots-getting-princess-frog-makeover-195344151.html

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 05:55:17 PM
ah so you're familiar with the Rambam that says that to reverse a bad habit or behavior you must do the extreme opposite which will eventually pull you to the middle (which the optimal place a person should be )
Not familiar with that and it is BS. All it takes is will power.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 06:01:20 PM
Not familiar with that and it is BS. All it takes is will power.
Will power may work but you need a strong will. The extreme opposite of the bad behavior is just ampilfiying your will.

If a person is a serial robber he will be tempted to steal even after he has a will to stop. Giving charity and showing respect for others property would help him change.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/910340/jewish/Deot-Chapter-One.htm#v1

ah so you're familiar with the Rambam that says that to reverse a bad habit or behavior you must do the extreme opposite which will eventually pull you to the middle (which the optimal place a person should be )
I dont know if that would be applicable here. Maybe more like a teaching of r Nachman about you cant heal until you have broken everything.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 25, 2020, 07:04:04 PM
ah so you're familiar with the Rambam that says that to reverse a bad habit or behavior you must do the extreme opposite which will eventually pull you to the middle (which the optimal place a person should be )
The political pendulum
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 25, 2020, 07:06:41 PM

It would be political malpractice if the Trump campaign didn't run this is an ad.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 07:10:16 PM
It would be political malpractice if the Trump campaign didn't run this is an ad.
...and he will lose more votes.
She is advocating for a review.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yzj on June 25, 2020, 07:47:12 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-powderhorn-park-neighborhood-progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd.amp

 This liberal regrets calling the cops when two black kids pull a gun on him and demanded his car keys because calling 911 could have gotten them killed. These people are insane.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 07:51:38 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-powderhorn-park-neighborhood-progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd.amp

 This liberal regrets calling the cops when two black kids pull a gun on him and demanded his car keys because calling 911 could have gotten them killed. These people are insane.
I seen it was FOX and clicked the link anyway. Then I seen it was that blowhard Tucker and X out.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on June 25, 2020, 07:57:38 PM
I seen it was FOX and clicked the link anyway. Then I seen it was that blowhard Tucker and X out.

Google the neighborhood, anyway. You'll find non-Tucker content.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 08:03:09 PM
Google the neighborhood, anyway. You'll find non-Tucker content.
To much work.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yzj on June 25, 2020, 09:55:30 PM
I seen it was FOX and clicked the link anyway. Then I seen it was that blowhard Tucker and X out.
You could have missed out on the fun but never fear, The NY Times has the same article almost word for word so it must be kosher.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.amp.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 10:13:25 PM
You could have missed out on the fun but never fear, The NY Times has the same article almost word for word so it must be kosher.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-police.amp.html
Paywall but thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yzj on June 25, 2020, 10:21:10 PM
Paywall but thanks anyway.
Here you go
http://archive.is/r7LFE
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yzj on June 25, 2020, 10:23:19 PM
What impressed me most is that they say a conservative is a former liberal who was mugged, but this guy is still gung  ho after being robbed at gunpoint.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 25, 2020, 10:33:58 PM
Here you go
http://archive.is/r7LFE
Wow, TY!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 10:37:12 PM
Here you go
http://archive.is/r7LFE
Racial bias training???
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on June 25, 2020, 10:46:39 PM
Racial bias training???
Its a thing
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 25, 2020, 11:07:21 PM
Its a thing
Unfortunately.

Many are forced to attend through work but she enrolled voluntarily.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ergel on June 26, 2020, 02:41:36 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-powderhorn-park-neighborhood-progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd

Yeah I know and yeah it was scary but the cops didnt really have much to add after I called them, he continued. I havent been forced to think like this before. So I would have lost my car. So what? At least no one would have been killed.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on June 26, 2020, 03:00:57 AM
Until those kids decide to use their gun, of course.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 26, 2020, 07:46:26 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-powderhorn-park-neighborhood-progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd

Yeah I know and yeah it was scary but the cops didnt really have much to add after I called them, he continued. I havent been forced to think like this before. So I would have lost my car. So what? At least no one would have been killed.


Well, maybe redistributing wealth is a good idea after all?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 27, 2020, 11:02:07 PM
.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 27, 2020, 11:03:43 PM
.
Someone should tell the moron we already have a law for it but the Kool-Aid drinkers believe this BS.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 27, 2020, 11:07:04 PM
Someone should tell the moron we already have a law for it but the Kool-Aid drinkers believe this BS.
Clipboard came in handy.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 27, 2020, 11:10:15 PM
Clipboard came in handy.
AHK  ::)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on June 28, 2020, 05:32:16 AM
Clipboard came in handy.

It was deleted, then?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on June 28, 2020, 05:33:33 AM
https://mishpacha.com/what-are-they-smashing/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yard sale on June 28, 2020, 05:06:10 PM
https://abc13.com/houston-association-of-realtors-changes-home-buying-master-bedroom/6272530/
How about master and slave drives?
Or male and female pipe connectors?
Ill bet if you studied the etymology of just about any language used today you would have to discard half the words due to their origin.
Wacky.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 28, 2020, 05:18:53 PM
How about master and slave drives?
Didn't they change slave drives years ago?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 28, 2020, 05:22:45 PM
https://abc13.com/houston-association-of-realtors-changes-home-buying-master-bedroom/6272530/
How about master and slave drives?
Or male and female pipe connectors?
Ill bet if you studied the etymology of just about any language used today you would have to discard half the words due to their origin.
Wacky.


Sounds like Canada
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on June 28, 2020, 06:38:01 PM
https://abc13.com/houston-association-of-realtors-changes-home-buying-master-bedroom/6272530/
How about master and slave drives?
Or male and female pipe connectors?
Ill bet if you studied the etymology of just about any language used today you would have to discard half the words due to their origin.
Wacky.
ban the plumbing industry
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on June 29, 2020, 12:22:50 AM
Nike pulled a pair of shoes that had the Betsy Ross flag (if I remember correctly, after it had already been shipped to stores)
Has anyone checked up on how their new business strategy is doing?
 Ive heard its not doing too well
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 29, 2020, 08:24:05 AM
Nike pulled a pair of shoes that had the Betsy Ross flag (if I remember correctly, after it had already been shipped to stores)

https://rushlimbaughshowstore.com/collections/betsy-ross

https://www.google.com/amp/s/footwearnews.com/2019/focus/athletic-outdoor/rush-limbaugh-betsy-ross-flag-t-shirt-nike-1202809466/amp/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 29, 2020, 12:15:41 PM
Has anyone checked up on how their new business strategy is doing?
 Ive heard its not doing too well
After there pro take a need stance sales went through the roof.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on June 30, 2020, 10:09:31 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 30, 2020, 01:34:49 PM
Should we have this thread locked since it seems we are all in agreement on the question?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on June 30, 2020, 01:54:20 PM
Should we have this thread locked since it seems we are all in agreement on the question?
This thread has a greater purpose: to allow us to vent our frustration in safe manner.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on June 30, 2020, 01:57:08 PM
This thread has a greater purpose: to allow us to vent our frustration in safe manner.
Drinking massive amounts of Kool-Aid is not safe.  ;)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on July 01, 2020, 12:54:31 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
===
A post on Imgur is of 4 images with the following quotes:
The Simpsons will no longer have white actors voice non-white characters - The New York Post

Texas realtors will stop using "Master" to describe bedrooms, bathrooms - TMZ

Episodes of The Office and Community are being edited on their respective streaming
services to remove scenes where characters appear in blackface - IGN

The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than
economic equity and real justice - Malcolm X
===

Others think companies are either desperate to do something to show they're anti-racist, but are
clueless, or they're doing this as a substitute for anything that might actually cost them money.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on July 01, 2020, 01:05:44 AM
That video title is a blatant lie.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 01, 2020, 10:57:25 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 01, 2020, 11:56:14 PM

Remember when people made fun of the slippery slope argument (like, a couple of weeks ago)?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on July 01, 2020, 11:59:05 PM
Remember when people made fun of the slippery slope argument (like, a couple of weeks ago)?

There is no slippery slope fallacy when talking about progressives. Its literally in the name.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on July 02, 2020, 12:04:46 AM
im scared  to draw attention to it bc this is one of those monuments you exactly repair, replicate. so they're so dumb drawing attn to it. one stupid teenager will throw a firecracker at it..
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on July 02, 2020, 12:06:42 AM
im scared  to draw attention to it bc this is one of those monuments you exactly repair, replicate. so they're so dumb drawing attn to it. one stupid teenager will throw a firecracker at it..
Ive got to visit while I still can! Is there COVID there?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 02, 2020, 12:18:11 AM
"Native Americans have long criticized the sculpture, in part because it was built on what had been Indigenous land. "


Should we tell the NYT that Manhattan was also indigenous land?
Time to give the entire US back?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 02, 2020, 07:22:04 AM
Speaking of giving back land.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 02, 2020, 09:14:45 AM
MT Rushmore is next.
Remember when people made fun of the slippery slope argument (like, a couple of weeks ago)?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 02, 2020, 09:17:47 AM
Who wants to bet if MT Rushmore is coming down?
This will be another one of those you can hear a pin drop.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on July 02, 2020, 09:20:22 AM
Who wants to bet if MT Rushmore is coming down?
This will be another one of those you can hear a pin drop.  :)
Coming down.. probably not
defaced.. probably yes
damaged irreparably.. maybe
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 02, 2020, 09:23:40 AM
defaced.. probably yes
The more the right keeps talking about it the greater the chance of this happening.
Just look at the knee issue. Wasn't much of an issue until our moron president tried to divide the country over it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on July 02, 2020, 09:25:29 AM
The more the right keeps talking about it the greater the chance of this happening.
Trust me.. those people aren't looking to ddf for ideas. we can discuss it freely here.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 02, 2020, 09:26:34 AM
Trust me.. those people aren't looking to ddf for ideas. we can discuss it freely here.
Not talking about DDF.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 02, 2020, 09:40:37 AM

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Coming 2020: MT Rushmore, US Currency,Washington State,Washington D.C. Colombia university, stay tuned.
Whether or not they succeed isn't the point.
It is their view of the history, and current state, of our country that is abhorrent.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: justaregularguy on July 02, 2020, 02:36:04 PM
The more the right keeps talking about it the greater the chance of this happening.
Not talking about DDF.
hes talking about the NYT obviously ;)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 02, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
That video title is a blatant lie.
@Randomex random...? Which video?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 02, 2020, 04:13:16 PM
Oy!

The Verge: Twitter engineers pushed to replace master and slave programming terms.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311330/twitter-engineers-master-slave-github-programming-racism
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 05, 2020, 11:36:38 AM
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/university-administrator-forced-to-resign-over-study-finding-no-racial-bias-in-police-shootings/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 05, 2020, 03:10:54 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on July 07, 2020, 10:07:41 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 08, 2020, 01:20:21 PM
https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 08, 2020, 01:20:31 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/arts/harpers-letter.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on July 08, 2020, 01:33:12 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/arts/harpers-letter.html

I think as we talk about double standards, this becomes an important thing for both sides to acknowledge:

Quote
Donald Trump is the Canceler in Chief, he said. But the correction of Trumps abuses cannot become an overcorrection that stifles the principles we believe in.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 08, 2020, 01:33:48 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 08, 2020, 01:34:46 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 08, 2020, 02:30:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but that letter seems to speak out for free speech and against shaming. Why are these guys regretting signing?

Cant read past the NYT paywall.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2020, 02:43:23 PM
I think as we talk about double standards, this becomes an important thing for both sides to acknowledge:

Any examples of Trump canceling someone? The only possible one that I can think of is Colin Kaepernick
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on July 08, 2020, 04:35:07 PM
Any examples of Trump canceling someone? The only possible one that I can think of is Colin Kaepernick

Are you serious? The guy has literally made "fake news" a universally recognized dismissal of anything anyone doesn't agree with.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2020, 05:00:06 PM
Are you serious? The guy has literally made "fake news" a universally recognized dismissal of anything anyone doesn't agree with.

Apparently we have a different definition of "Canceling".

According to Wikipedia, canceling is

Quote
a form of boycott in which an individual, who has shared a questionable or controversial opinion, or has had behavior in their past that is perceived to be offensive recorded on social media, is "canceled"; they are ostracized and shunned by former friends, followers and supporters alike, leading to declines in any careers and fanbase the individual may have at any given time.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on July 08, 2020, 05:21:01 PM
Apparently we have a different definition of "Canceling".

According to Wikipedia, canceling is

You're right. I can't think of any individuals, any businesses, or any media outlets that fit the description of being cancelled by Trump.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 05:43:16 PM
You're right. I can't think of any individuals, any businesses, or any media outlets that fit the description of being cancelled by Trump.
Did you forget the sarcasm emoji?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 08, 2020, 06:03:52 PM
Did you forget the sarcasm emoji?

 Do you know of any examples? Mind sharing?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 08, 2020, 06:21:05 PM
Do you know of any examples? Mind sharing?
He has trouble sometimes when it comes to producing facts
The latest deflection is usually that he doesnt want to go in circles for 100 pages
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 06:42:25 PM
Do you know of any examples? Mind sharing?
Anyone that left the administration and criticized Trump. Bolton would be the latest one.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 06:44:49 PM
He has trouble sometimes when it comes to producing facts
The latest deflection is usually that he doesnt want to go in circles for 100 pages
You want to go around in circles. You can do that on your own from now on. If you want to see how to have an honest discussion look at AJK posts.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 08, 2020, 07:03:17 PM
Anyone that left the administration and criticized Trump. Bolton would be the latest one.
Im not sure I have this new cancel phrase down pat, please explain who canceled who
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
Im not sure I have this new cancel phrase down pat, please explain who canceled who
Trump, right wing and Kool-Aid drinkers tried to cancel Bolton.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 08, 2020, 07:06:56 PM
Trump, right wing and Kool-Aid drinkers tried to cancel Bolton.
Didnt he cancel them first?
🤷🏻‍♂️
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 07:09:01 PM
Didnt he cancel them first?
🤷🏻‍♂️
You want to go around in circles. You can do that on your own from now on.
:P
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 08, 2020, 07:10:43 PM
:P
Deflection!
Maybe you can try out as a goalie for the blackhawks
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 07:12:31 PM
Deflection!
Maybe you can try out as a goalie for the blackhawks
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVrdgWCx/Secondhand-Easy-Azurevase-size-restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 08, 2020, 08:15:49 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/us/hate-crime-charges-black-lives-matter-mural-painted-over-trnd/

Hate crime?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 08, 2020, 08:18:27 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/us/hate-crime-charges-black-lives-matter-mural-painted-over-trnd/

Hate crime?
Don't know but the idiots are trying to stay within the lines. So it will be BLM in black instead of yellow.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2020, 01:48:04 PM
https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/ (https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/)

Surprised there is no discussion of the irony of Yglesias having been attacked for signing on the same letter as Rowling.

Meanwhile in a letter responding to this one

Quote
Not only is there no significant evidence of inappropriate censure linking these instances, its unclear what examples the authors, some of whom are considered writing icons, are even drawing from to make their point.

Also in the same letter

Quote
Many signatories on our list noted their institutional affiliation but not their name, fearful of professional retaliation. It is a sad fact, and in part why we wrote the letter.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on July 10, 2020, 01:54:52 PM
Surprised there is no discussion of the irony of Yglesias having been attacked for signing on the same letter as Rowling.

Meanwhile in a letter responding to this one

Also in the same letter

I believe it was brought up on the Cancel Everything thread
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 10, 2020, 02:08:37 PM
I believe it was brought up on the Cancel Everything thread
Can't keep track of every thread opened on an existing topic....

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 10, 2020, 02:22:33 PM
Surprised there is no discussion of the irony of Yglesias having been attacked for signing on the same letter as Rowling.

Meanwhile in a letter responding to this one

Also in the same letter

I've lost track of the back and forth with this letter:

First NYT editor gets fired for publishing an OP-ed from a US Senator talking about federal laws pertaining to the National guard.

Next, we have a Harpers letter saying this is crazy, stop cancelling.

Then Harpers letter gets canceled?

Some signers walk back their signatures?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 10, 2020, 02:24:09 PM
If anyone would like to chip in for baby gifts for Dan and JJ, click here (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=32444.msg2290640#msg2290640).
WARNING TO DAN AND JJ: DON'T EVEN THINK OF CLICKING!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on July 10, 2020, 02:38:03 PM
I've lost track of the back and forth with this letter:

First NYT editor gets fired for publishing an OP-ed from a US Senator talking about federal laws pertaining to the National guard.

Next, we have a Harpers letter saying this is crazy, stop cancelling.

Then Harpers letter gets canceled?

Some signers walk back their signatures?
By the way, here is a little bit about one of the signatories of the Harper letter

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/09/06/my-prison-reading/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jeremiah on July 12, 2020, 01:30:04 PM
www.foxnews.com/us/Seattle-chop-segregated-training-session-white-supremacy-physical-safety/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on July 12, 2020, 02:13:23 PM
I figured this was a good place to put this.

Quote
I, too, believed America was the exception to the rule. No longer.

The following - by Rabbi Berel Wein:

IMPLOSION

Even a cursory review of world history allows the reader to realize that great and mighty countries and empires fall not necessarily because of outside pressures, but because of the implosion of the society itself. Rome ruled the world for over five centuries, and, at the height of its power, it succumbed to barbaric tribes. The breakup and disintegration of the Empire came as Rome was undermined by the spread of Christianity within its society and the dissatisfaction and dissolution of social norms. These factors gave way to internal violence and a complete abandonment of any sense of loyalty to the Empire itself, or to the history that Rome had so carefully fashioned and preserved over its centuries of hegemony. In short, Rome collapsed from within and not from without.

The same can be said of the Spanish Empire in the 16th century, which never recovered from its foolish, and self-destructive exile of its Jewish population at the beginning of the century. It no longer possessed the creativity and will to succeed that had driven it to become one of the major powers in the world.

The Ottoman Empire was also rotten from the inside, and any stress placed upon it would hasten its extinction and disappearance. The first World War provided that stress. and the Ottoman Turkish Empire never recovered. In our time, we have witnessed the destruction of Communism within the Soviet Union after 75 years of brutal and tyrannical rule. Once again, the Soviet Union collapsed from the inside and not from the outside. It had weathered all of the storms of World War II and the Cold War, but it could not survive because of the malaise of its population, the burdens of bureaucracy and inefficient government that it had foisted upon a helpless populace.

A serious question has now arisen regarding the future of the United States of America. It is a very polarized society, and over the past decades it has lost its moral footing. It has become dissolute, hateful of its own heritage, spoiled by too much material wealth, and subject to Marxist indoctrination emanating from its educational systems. Whether or not the United States will be able to survive this storm is, as of yet, an undecided question. However, it is clear to me that no matter what happens, it will become increasingly difficult for Orthodox Jews to maintain themselves in American society. The entire culture is hostile to Torah values and to a Jewish way of life.

Jews have waxed prosperous over the past decades, and the continuity of Orthodox educational institutions is contingent upon the continuation of that prosperity. However, whether America will have a prosperous future over the next few decades is a difficult question to answer. There will be more governmental regulations regarding curriculum, and the nature of educational classes in schools. Education separated by sex will certainly not be allowed, and the concentration on Torah studies will be severely limited. I hope that I am wrong regarding my fears, but my heart tells me otherwise.

Certainly, the America that I grew up in and lived in for most of my lifetime no longer exists. There is no longer wholesome entertainment nor a feeling of moral probity. America was once a religious country. Today it has become overwhelmingly secular with all the attendant evils that such a change in society inevitably engenders. History teaches us that nothing goes on forever, and that great countries and empires rise but inevitably fall.

For many years, I thought that the United States was an exception to that rule, but I no longer believe so. The curve has already flattened, and we are witness to the downward spiral that leads to irrelevance and impotence in world events, I fervently pray that I am wrong but these are my impressions as I view the current scene.

Shabbat Shalom

R Berel Wein
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on July 12, 2020, 02:38:50 PM
I figured this was a good place to put this.

Where was this published?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2020, 02:39:53 PM
Where was this published?
https://www.rabbiwein.com/blog/post-2309.html
7/5
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yef on July 12, 2020, 03:59:16 PM
Wow! Eye opening
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on July 14, 2020, 08:04:27 AM
So now you can defend your own house?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mark-mccloskey-st-louis-rifle-rumor-indicted
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2020, 09:00:27 AM
So now you can defend your own house?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mark-mccloskey-st-louis-rifle-rumor-indicted
Do you mean "can't"?

Checkout this comment by scumbag TC: "If you just retreated into your house, it probably would be burned to the ground, as you just said," Carlson told McCloskey.

We all know that protest always result in riots, killings and houses being burnt down. The mindset of a racist.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on July 14, 2020, 11:26:59 AM
Do you mean "can't"?

Checkout this comment by scumbag TC: "If you just retreated into your house, it probably would be burned to the ground, as you just said," Carlson told McCloskey.

We all know that protest always result in riots, killings and houses being burnt down. The mindset of a racist.
no, only a small percentage.
I'm not sure I want my house to be the test case
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2020, 11:32:12 AM
I'm not sure I want my house to be the test case
You can protect from being what you call a "test case" without acting like you are in the wild wild west.
These are the type of individuals IMHO that should not be allowed to owe guns. They make the situation worse not better.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 14, 2020, 11:55:18 AM
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

WOW!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2020, 12:05:08 PM
WOW!
:)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 14, 2020, 03:10:52 PM
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter (https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter)

WOW!
There goes another one...
 (https://mobile.twitter.com/sullydish/status/1283100440683479043)[/url]
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on July 14, 2020, 03:58:25 PM
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

WOW!
Agreed, though this is not surprising at all to any of us here.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 15, 2020, 11:30:18 AM
From The Smithsonian
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

(https://nmaahc.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/image_caption/public/images/captioned/whiteculture_info_1.png?itok=tO7RMVFi)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on July 15, 2020, 11:52:43 AM
From The Smithsonian
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

(https://nmaahc.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/image_caption/public/images/captioned/whiteculture_info_1.png?itok=tO7RMVFi)
if I said half of these (especially reversed) I'd be racist

White people are better at linear, rational thinking? Delayed gratification?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 15, 2020, 11:58:31 AM
From The Smithsonian
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

(https://nmaahc.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/image_caption/public/images/captioned/whiteculture_info_1.png?itok=tO7RMVFi)

WT*? I don't think I've ever seen a more racist thing in my life!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 15, 2020, 12:05:13 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a more racist thing in my life!
Trump, is that you?  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 15, 2020, 12:28:54 PM
From The Smithsonian
https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
Where's the corresponding one for aspects and assumptions for blackness in the US?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: SSLPhD on July 15, 2020, 12:37:50 PM
Not speaking about descendants of African slaves, the majority of immigrant people of color come specifically to take advantage of these attitudes.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 15, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
Trump, is that you?  :)

Do you agree that saying that Hard work, objective thinking, delayed gratification and Mastering/controlling ones nature are white things (and the inference that black people don't believe in those things) is a extremely racist statement?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 15, 2020, 01:57:35 PM
Do you agree that saying that Hard work, objective thinking, delayed gratification and Mastering/controlling ones nature are white things (and the inference that black people don't believe in those things) is a extremely racist statement?
It was a joke playing off Trumps "I am the least racist person in the world".
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on July 15, 2020, 03:42:43 PM
if I said half of these (especially reversed) I'd be racist


Like this? Is this what they are trying to say?(FTR, these are not my personal beliefs but rather the flip side of what they are saying)


Quote
ASPECTS & ASSUMPTIONS OF BLACK CULTURE IN THE  UNITED STATES
TALKING ABOUT RACE I NMAAHC



Less Individualism The individual is not the primary unit Less Self-reliance Independence & autonomy not highly valued or rewarded Individuals assumed not to have control of their environment, "You dont get what you deserve"


Unstructured Family No nuclear family with father and mother No husband as breadwinner and head of household Mother is homemaker, breadwinner, and insubordinate to the husband Children should be dependent


No Emphasis on Scientific Method Unobjective, irrational non-linear thinking No cause and effect relationships No quantitative emphasis


Work Ethic Hard work is irrelevant to success Play before work "If you didn't meet your goals, it has nothing to do with you"


Status, Power & Authority Wealth is not worth Your job isnt who you are Dont respect authority Little value on ownership of goods, space, property


Future Orientation Dont plan for future Instant gratification Progress doesnt matter "Tomorrow wont be better"


Time Dont follow rigid time schedules Time has little value


Justice Based on _______(no?) law Disregard property & entitlement Intent is irrelevant


Competition Dont make sure to be #1 No winner/losers No Action Orientation Dont Win at all costs Be controlled by nature "do nothing" about a situation no Aggressiveness and Extroversion No Decision-Making Minority rules (when Whites have power)


Communication "Ebonics" rules No written tradition Dont avoid conflict, intimacy show emotion discuss personal life Dont be polite

WT*? I don't think I've ever seen a more racist thing in my life!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on July 16, 2020, 03:41:31 AM
Check this out. (I don't remember where on Twitter I found it.)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 16, 2020, 01:58:16 PM
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

WOW!
https://forward.com/opinion/450771/bari-weiss-is-a-casualty-of-the-lefts-woke-culture-war/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on July 16, 2020, 03:03:16 PM
https://forward.com/opinion/450771/bari-weiss-is-a-casualty-of-the-lefts-woke-culture-war/
https://honestreporting.com/bari-weiss-leaves-nyt-honestreporting-responds/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on July 16, 2020, 09:16:38 PM
From The Smithsonian
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 16, 2020, 09:26:26 PM

Cancel culture works!  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on July 16, 2020, 09:30:35 PM
Cancel culture works!  :)
Or, the Smithsonian shouldn't be using our tax dollars to publish things that would make David Duke blush?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 16, 2020, 09:32:01 PM
Or, the Smithsonian shouldn't be using our tax dollars to publish things that would make David Duke blush?
...or both!  ;)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 16, 2020, 09:44:01 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on July 16, 2020, 10:27:59 PM

So they took down the chart, but not the lesson plan that chart was representing.

I guess it's not true that
Cancel culture works!  :)
It just makes racists hide a bit better...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 19, 2020, 02:46:02 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 19, 2020, 03:03:56 PM
Legit?
Or is that only the canadian version?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 19, 2020, 03:05:14 PM
Legit?
Or is that only the canadian version?
Regular American version.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on July 19, 2020, 10:51:34 PM
what is this inclusive or racist?

https://www.womentechmakers.com/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on July 19, 2020, 11:04:25 PM
https://google.com/racialequity/
take a step in the right direction and set your background to black

https://blog.google/inside-google/company-announcements/commitments-racial-equity/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on July 20, 2020, 11:22:37 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/us/trader-joes-food-labeling-racist-petition-trnd/index.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 20, 2020, 11:25:19 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 20, 2020, 10:10:47 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 20, 2020, 10:15:47 PM

So we should follow the lead of white supremacists?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 20, 2020, 10:18:17 PM
So we should follow the lead of white supremacists?
Why is White any different than Black?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 20, 2020, 10:19:08 PM
Why is White any different than Black?
If you can't answer a simple question then don't respond.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on July 20, 2020, 11:18:34 PM
If you can't answer a simple question then don't respond.
I'm talking about from a grammar standpoint. If we highlight names of races, why wouldn't we do all?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 21, 2020, 06:02:05 AM
I'm talking about from a grammar standpoint. If we highlight names of races, why wouldn't we do all?
If you can't answer a simple question then don't respond.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on July 21, 2020, 10:47:46 AM
So we should follow the lead of white supremacists?

How do white supremacists do it? They write White, Black, or both?
And if they write White and it's wrong, why would we follow their lead and write Black?

And if Black is grammatically correct, why would White not be? If it's because someone evil uses good grammar - last I checked, white supremacists use a lot of common words, and I'm not ready to delete the dictionary and learn a new language.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 21, 2020, 11:45:04 AM
How do white supremacists do it? They write White, Black, or both?
White and I don't think they use the word Black to describe am African American.  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 21, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
How do white supremacists do it? They write White, Black, or both?
And if they write White and it's wrong, why would we follow their lead and write Black?

And if Black is grammatically correct, why would White not be? If it's because someone evil uses good grammar - last I checked, white supremacists use a lot of common words, and I'm not ready to delete the dictionary and learn a new language.
How is white or black a race?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on July 21, 2020, 02:18:50 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: CountValentine on July 21, 2020, 02:25:31 PM
Good thing he didn't make the story about himself.  ::)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Naftuli19 on July 22, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29518115/black-lives-matter-mlb-stencil-debut-mound-thursday-nationals-host-yankees
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lurker on October 01, 2020, 09:00:36 AM
https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/california-governor-signs-corporate-boardroom-diversity-law

How many of the over 660 public corporations headquartered in California will still be there in a year from now?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on October 01, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/california-governor-signs-corporate-boardroom-diversity-law

How many of the over 660 public corporations headquartered in California will still be there in a year from now?
Not many.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on October 07, 2020, 04:48:55 PM
Different topic but same idea.

I took my kid to the doc today and these questions were part of the paperwork:

(https://i.gyazo.com/7e4914af709256f235fda6d70e9789f5.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/940f3866885c53121d7c12372d465fdc.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/2668af7506b6aff7ac7299879f9e1472.png)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on October 07, 2020, 04:54:31 PM
Oh, the fun I would have.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yard sale on November 19, 2020, 09:19:57 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/madison.com/news/local/education/university/uw-madison-moves-forward-on-plan-to-move-70-ton-boulder-seen-as-symbol-of/article_d024d9a7-c143-5a91-8165-b8ac521d1dc6.amp.html

They are digging up a massive boulder because a hundred years ago someone ONCE called it a n-rhead.
I think we should rename Mount Washington and watch the fun.
Title: Re: Are we going too far? Yup!
Post by: Kobe Bryant on November 19, 2020, 09:27:34 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/madison.com/news/local/education/university/uw-madison-moves-forward-on-plan-to-move-70-ton-boulder-seen-as-symbol-of/article_d024d9a7-c143-5a91-8165-b8ac521d1dc6.amp.html

They are digging up a massive boulder because a hundred years ago someone called it a n-rhead.
I think we should rename Mount Washington and watch the fun.
But the rock was referred to at least once after it was dug out... O, you brutal racist boulder!!!!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: eyj on November 19, 2020, 10:26:03 AM
They should just rename the rock Uncle Ben.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on January 03, 2021, 11:26:04 PM
Not sure who the clown was that was saying a prayer today in the House.
He ended off Amen and Awoman!
And I thought Ive seen it all
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yitzgar on January 03, 2021, 11:29:35 PM
Not sure who the clown was that was saying a prayer today in the House.
He ended off Amen and Awoman!
And I thought Ive seen it all
Ha! It's just getting started....
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on January 03, 2021, 11:29:51 PM
Not sure who the clown was that was saying a prayer today in the House.
He ended off Amen and Awoman!
And I thought Ive seen it all
Pastor Emanuel Cleaver
https://www.kkoh.com/news/rep-cleaver-offered-bizarre-degenderizing-of-amen-in-opening-house-prayer/

The nerve of him to omit all the other genders!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on January 04, 2021, 12:57:05 AM
Different topic but same idea.

I took my kid to the doc today and these questions were part of the paperwork:
in the past i saw a form on walmarts site A: mostly male,mostly female,  cant find it now but
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on January 04, 2021, 06:48:39 AM
You probably cant say Hebrew anymore, you gotta say Hebrew and Shebrew
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on January 04, 2021, 08:28:29 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRZtGkXp/4200-CD4-C-2-F19-4-F78-8089-82-A61-DF3-D3-A7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6KVSxDY)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on January 04, 2021, 08:00:59 PM
Someone told me that he thinks Abie Rottenberg really started all of this many years ago with hippopotamisses and hippopotamisters,
he was just ahead of his times
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on January 04, 2021, 08:12:03 PM
Someone told me that he thinks Abie Rottenberg really started all of this many years ago with hippopotamisses and hippopotamisters,
he was just ahead of his times
Goes back even further to the whole אני is me, מי is who, הוא is he, היא is she.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Lamppost on January 08, 2021, 02:04:59 PM


I cant believe Ewomanuel Cleaver would say something so dumb!!!:)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 09, 2021, 09:58:54 PM
You do know he said he was just making a joke?
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/the-buzz/article248266055.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on January 09, 2021, 10:11:34 PM
You do know he said he was just making a joke?
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/the-buzz/article248266055.html
Maybe yes & maybe no. But he shouldnt have used the opening prayer to make puns. He couldve just worn a white suit.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 09, 2021, 10:31:04 PM
Maybe yes & maybe no. But he shouldnt have used the opening prayer to make puns. He couldve just worn a white suit.

Only a libtard would be so sacrilegious.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yo ssi on January 10, 2021, 01:18:22 AM
YES!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on January 10, 2021, 06:24:43 AM
YES!
YES
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on January 10, 2021, 09:31:56 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-10/marriott-suspends-donations-to-senators-who-opposed-vote-result
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yo ssi on January 10, 2021, 10:58:40 AM

We might need it posted a few more times :P
Title: We Have Gone Too Far
Post by: Kobe Bryant on January 10, 2021, 01:22:45 PM
Unfortunately very true!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on January 11, 2021, 09:54:43 AM
https://www.businessinsider.com/pga-pulls-2022-championships-from-trumps-nj-golf-course-2021-1
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on January 11, 2021, 10:00:43 AM
https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Talk-radio-owner-orders-conservative-hosts-to-15860720.php
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/amazoncom-thrown-off-aws-for-selling-trumps-art-of-the-deal
:D
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on January 13, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
https://babylonbee.com/news/amazoncom-thrown-off-aws-for-selling-trumps-art-of-the-deal
:D
Lol. Should read *proponents* of the move, no?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: 123-Rosh on January 13, 2021, 02:06:55 PM
Dems Objected to More States in 2016 Election, But Somehow Were Wrong?

https://rumble.com/embed/va51e5/?pub=4

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2021, 03:44:47 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 13, 2021, 06:40:20 PM
I saw this copied from Twitter like this. I don't have the link to the thread -

1) A couple of hours ago, I tweeted out that this tweet referred to me. Shortly after, I deleted that tweet. After much introspection, and talking with friends and family, I feel obligated to reveal why I deleted it.

Quote Tweet
Mark
@MarkFooterman
Jan 12
A very talented friend of mine, who interned w/ @GOPLeader, and at 20 was one of the highest ranked staffers in the Trump campaign, was just fired from his new job when client found out he worked for Trump. He now can't afford rent. Still think cancel culture isn't that serious?
2) After identifying myself as the subject of the thread, @Fly_PJS reached out to me, threatening to take legal action and publicly defame me if I didn't delete the tweet. Intimidated and nervous, I immediately deleted it.

3) But after thinking about it, and discussing my rights of free speech with advisors, I will not be bullied into silence. I'm now going to raise my voice louder.

4) In early January, PJS hired me to be a concierge for a contract they had with the
@NHL team, @Canes. Having worked with PJS as an operations associate for Trump Campaign HQ, I eagerly accepted the position-excited to join a company I had developed a personal relationship with.

5) After receiving a laptop, establishing a work email, and even purchasing additional work clothes, I prepared to travel to Raleigh, NC today for training. Yesterday evening, around 7 PM, PJS called and fired me without explanation.

6) I was devastated. I had gone from being employed to unemployed in a matter of seconds, and I hadn't done anything wrong.

7) I called the owner of PJS and asked for any explanation, and he told me very bluntly: the @NHL found out I worked for the Trump campaign and threatened to cancel the contract with PJS unless they fired me.

8 ) Instead of standing up for me, instead of explaining to the NHL that I, as a person, am not solely defined by my previous work on the Trump campaign, they fired me for their own company's financial gain.

9) I was upset and disappointed, but I didn't initially blame them for this decision. I wish they had stood up for me...they didn't. I didn't have any animosity towards PJS, until they tried to bully me into silence.

10) So now I'm sharing the story, in its entirety. Even though the owner told me this afternoon that he would deny everything I say if this went any further. But this is the truth, and I feel more empowered and supported if I share it with all of you.

11) I can't begin to thank all of the people who helped me through this, and have reached out to me on Twitter, LinkedIn, and by email to help. Thank you all so much! I look forward to continuing to voice the truth so this never happens to a conservative again.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2021, 07:04:34 PM
I saw this copied from Twitter like this. I don't have the link to the thread -
https://m.twitter.com/dawsonbuchanan_/status/1349175838521106436
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on January 19, 2021, 04:15:44 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-19/biden-picks-transgender-woman-as-assistant-health-secretary
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 19, 2021, 05:04:20 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-19/biden-picks-transgender-woman-as-assistant-health-secretary
Why do you think this is "going to far"? Do you have any reason she shouldn't qualify?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on January 19, 2021, 05:13:07 PM
Why do you think this is "going to far"? Do you have a reason to believe he is the most qualified?
His nomination is groundbreaking and shows the Biden administration will choose the most qualified intersectional individuals to lead our nation regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, qualifications FTFE
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 19, 2021, 06:09:57 PM
Why do you think this is "going to far"? Do you have any reason she shouldn't qualify?

Don't know why it's in this thread, but this guy put in place the same policy regarding nursing homes that NY had. Meanwhile, he transfered his mother out of the nursing home she was in to protect her...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 19, 2021, 07:13:11 PM

Meh. Replies reference a smattering of his twitter history, and it's not surprising that a sports team would steer clear.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on January 19, 2021, 07:32:07 PM
Why do you think this is "going to far"? Do you have any reason she shouldn't qualify?
Most people I know, believe people like that have a mental illness. So thats a possible reason to qualify as going to far...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 19, 2021, 07:44:32 PM
Most people I know, believe people like that have a mental illness. So thats a possible reason to qualify as going to far...

"mental illness" is such a vast spectrum and is hardly disqualifying in a vast majority of cases.

ETA: which is not to say I agree that it is in fact mental illness. And unless most of the people you know are psychiatrists, why should you take their diagnosis all that seriously?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on January 19, 2021, 07:53:37 PM
"mental illness" is such a vast spectrum and is hardly disqualifying in a vast majority of cases.

ETA: which is not to say I agree that it is in fact mental illness. And unless most of the people you know are psychiatrists, why should you take their diagnosis all that seriously?
I would take this conversation further but pls excuse me,  Its making me too nauseous
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 19, 2021, 08:08:01 PM
I would take this conversation further but pls excuse me,  Its making me too nauseous

Or maybe think for a second of the number of people you know who are mentally ill, and statistically speaking that includes some in your immidiate family, and think that you just lumped them all together with behavior that you can't even speak about in a vague sense without getting nauseous.

Mental illness isn't a bucket to put any behavior you don't understand or that grosses you out. And it certainly isn't a huge bucket to put anyone you want to shun. Think of a kid hearing these conversations, and then when he realizes he suffers from depression and is mentally ill, he now is the same as a trans person who doesn't deserve a place in society with gainful employment, according to you and "most people you know."
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 19, 2021, 08:08:30 PM
"mental illness" is such a vast spectrum and is hardly disqualifying in a vast majority of cases.

Agree

ETA: which is not to say I agree that it is in fact mental illness. And unless most of the people you know are psychiatrists, why should you take their diagnosis all that seriously?

When discussing the condition, (not a specific person), I think it's pretty obvious that a person who is so uncomfortable with the way their body looks that they feel the need to go through extreme medical intervention to change is suffering from a mental disorder.

How to treat that disorder is a completely different discussion.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 19, 2021, 08:30:35 PM
Agree

When discussing the condition, (not a specific person), I think it's pretty obvious that a person who is so uncomfortable with the way their body looks that they feel the need to go through extreme medical intervention to change is suffering from a mental disorder.

How to treat that disorder is a completely different discussion.

I don't agree or disagree. Can we leave the diagnosies to the psychiatrists? Having "most people I know" making these comments based on the Ben Shapiro show is certainly not doing anyone any favors..

Yes, I know this is rich coming from the guy who diagnoses covid based on anonymous internet forum posts.

If you want to make the case this person is not qualified for the job, make it based on professional history not some vague claims of mental illness which, even if true, likely have no bearing on the person's qualifications.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 19, 2021, 08:35:46 PM
His nomination is groundbreaking and shows the Biden administration will choose the most qualified intersectional individuals to lead our nation regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, qualifications FTFE
"She won past confirmation by the Republican-majority Pennsylvania Senate and has emerged as the public face of the state's response to the coronavirus pandemic."

"A graduate of Harvard and of Tulane Medical School, Levine is president of the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials. She's written in the past on the opioid crisis, medical marijuana, adolescent medicine, eating disorders"

Again, do you know anything about her or are you just deciding she isn't qualified without any evidence?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 19, 2021, 08:36:28 PM
I don't agree or disagree. Can we leave the diagnosies to the psychiatrists? Having "most people I know" making these comments based on the Ben Shapiro show is certainly not doing anyone any favors..

Yes, I know this is rich coming from the guy who diagnoses covid based on anonymous internet forum posts.

If you want to make the case this person is not qualified for the job, make it based on professional history not some vague claims of mental illness which, even if true, likely have no bearing on the person's qualifications.
+1
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 19, 2021, 08:37:00 PM
RINOs
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on January 19, 2021, 08:39:42 PM
I don't think it is the right pick considering the nursing home policy, but that isn't at all surprising. Seems qualified otherwise. We know to expect appointment to be based partially on these other shtusim as shown in VP pick, but that is what the Dems are all about. nunu
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 19, 2021, 08:57:19 PM
Again, do you know anything about her or are you just deciding she isn't qualified without any evidence?

Don't know why it's in this thread, but this guy put in place the same policy regarding nursing homes that NY had. Meanwhile, he transfered his mother out of the nursing home she was in to protect her...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 19, 2021, 09:16:14 PM
Can we leave the diagnosies to the psychiatrists?

Can we discuss ideas without appeals to authority? If your argument is that this thread is the wrong place for this discussion, then fine.

I agree with your criticism of those who stigmatize mental illness. But I don't think that we need a psychiatrist to tell us that people who are 12 times more likely to commit suicide than the general population are not in severe emotional and mental distress.

Disclaimer: do not take medical advice from random people having a discussion on the internet.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 19, 2021, 09:22:32 PM
Can we discuss ideas without appeals to authority? If your argument is that this thread is the wrong place for this discussion, then fine.

I agree with your criticism of those who stigmatize mental illness. But I don't think that we need a psychiatrist to tell us that people who are 12 times more likely to commit suicide than the general population are not in severe emotional and mental distress.

Disclaimer: do not take medical advice from random people having a discussion on the internet.

We can discuss it as a general concept, and we're probably in agreement. But when you end up with people saying trans people should not get jobs because they're y sick, I think the dangers of public diagnosis become clear.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yitzgar on January 19, 2021, 10:13:07 PM
We can discuss it as a general concept, and we're probably in agreement. But when you end up with people saying trans people should not get jobs because they're y sick, I think the dangers of public diagnosis become clear.
(The following doesn't necessarily represent my feelings on this issue)
There is a difference between any job, and this job in particular if we are dealing with someone with a mental illness.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 19, 2021, 11:35:40 PM
I agree with your criticism of those who stigmatize mental illness. But I don't think that we need a psychiatrist to tell us that people who are 12 times more likely to commit suicide than the general population are not in severe emotional and mental distress.

1. That suicide rate could be higher because of the stigmas created.
2. It could also be because lots of mentally ill (in other ways) people self-identify as transgender for various reasons (to get attention, to belong, to have rights,  and possibly others) and the suicide rate has more to do with those peoples state of mind/mental condition than their transgender status.
3. Some transgender people have gender-identity issues because of gender imposed upon them by crazy parents, that can drive a person to suicide.

So I would say it depends.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on January 20, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
1. That suicide rate could be higher because of the stigmas created.
2. It could also be because lots of mentally ill (in other ways) people self-identify as transgender for various reasons (to get attention, to belong, to have rights,  and possibly others) and the suicide rate has more to do with those peoples state of mind/mental condition than their transgender status.
3. Some transgender people have gender-identity issues because of gender imposed upon them by crazy parents, that can drive a person to suicide.

So I would say it depends.
To sum up all of your points: Correlation does not equal causation.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on January 20, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
Someone with an observable acute mental illness shouldnt be one of the faces of public health policy in a country, but thats just my opinion.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 20, 2021, 08:19:20 AM
Someone with an acute observable mental illness shouldnt be one of the faces of public health policy in a country, but thats just my opinion.

Any mental illness or just this one?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 20, 2021, 08:19:44 AM
Someone with an acute observable mental illness shouldnt be one of the faces of public health policy in a country, but thats just my opinion.

Do all transgender people fit a diagnosis in the DSM-V? Hard to believe in 2020.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on January 20, 2021, 08:29:53 AM
Any mental illness or just this one?

I dont want to say all without thinking every mental illness through, but I can draw the line when the person openly believes in fake science.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 20, 2021, 09:50:45 AM
I dont want to say all without thinking every mental illness through, but I can draw the line when the person openly believes in fake science.

Ah. So it's not the mental illness that's the issue.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on January 20, 2021, 01:03:28 PM
Do all transgender people fit a diagnosis in the DSM-V? Hard to believe in 2020.
by now they censored updated it out of the DSM-V
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 20, 2021, 01:25:13 PM
by now they censored updated it out of the DSM-V

Wouldn't be the first time, or the last...

#Purim46
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 20, 2021, 04:44:55 PM
3. Some transgender people have gender-identity issues because of gender
imposed upon them by crazy parents, that can drive a person to suicide.

What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 20, 2021, 04:48:46 PM
What do you mean by that?

I mean there are parents who impose/project a gender identity on their child.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 20, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
When discussing the condition, (not a specific person), I think it's pretty obvious that a person who is so uncomfortable with the way their body looks that they feel the need to go through extreme medical intervention to change is suffering from a mental disorder.

I don't agree or disagree. Can we leave the diagnoses to the psychiatrists?

You really don't need to be a professional to know that a mental state which causes enough
distress that people prefer non-trivial surgery to remaining in it has clinical significance.

...likely have no bearing on the person's qualifications.

Agreed (maybe even without "likely").
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 20, 2021, 04:54:07 PM
I mean there are parents who impose/project a gender identity on their child.

As in, child is physically male/female but parents raise them as if they were the other?
(Are you talking about intersex people?)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 20, 2021, 05:01:08 PM
As in, child is physically male/female but parents raise them as if they were the other?

This. And Im not talking about intersex people.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 20, 2021, 05:06:21 PM
How common is that?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on January 20, 2021, 06:14:35 PM
As in, child is physically male/female but parents raise them as if they were the other?
(Are you talking about intersex people?)
that should qualify the parents for mental help. and that isn't even censored yet
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on January 20, 2021, 07:09:16 PM
How common is that?
Its happening...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on January 24, 2021, 12:49:34 AM
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/hpd-hdc-compliance-package.pdf

Page 5 could we add litvak, heimish,
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Definitions on January 24, 2021, 12:56:45 AM
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/hpd-hdc-compliance-package.pdf

Page 5 could we add litvak, heimish,
Lol. How'd you find that?

they should fix that

Besides I don't agree with jewish being an ethnicity (or ethnoreligious) to begin with.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on January 28, 2021, 10:07:40 AM
(https://i.gyazo.com/4fbad1f2abc6390c904f36176be2ea27.png)

Full disclosure: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/fact-check-viral-post-not-dave-ramsey/6596477002/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 28, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Wrong order.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 28, 2021, 12:46:39 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/4fbad1f2abc6390c904f36176be2ea27.png)

Full disclosure: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/fact-check-viral-post-not-dave-ramsey/6596477002/

Not sure I agree with whats being said, but its very well written.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 28, 2021, 01:51:07 PM
Man do we need a downvote option.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 28, 2021, 02:49:42 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on January 28, 2021, 03:35:17 PM

Anti-Semitic my @$$, Ilhan Omar is 1,000,000x worse. This woman is on a crazy rant, which is what I find troublesome. But she isn't saying what the tweet says she is, and is stating a fact that is indeed true about Roger Kimmel. Nowhere does she say Rothschild Inc. fired any laser beams, seriously:

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: BP16 on January 28, 2021, 03:35:39 PM
Yea Omar loves Jews like, Bernie who hates Jews as much as PLO and Hamas so as long she doesn't tweet crap she is good.   
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: BP16 on January 28, 2021, 03:38:33 PM
Anti-Semitic my @$$, Ilhan Omar is 1,000,000x worse. This woman is on a crazy rant, which is what I find troublesome. But she isn't saying what the tweet says she is, and is stating a fact that is indeed true about Roger Kimmel. Nowhere does she say Rothschild Inc. fired any laser beams, seriously:

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png)
You have to give him time he is still affected by Trump Syndrome maybe give it a few more executive actions signed by Biden to heal him.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on January 28, 2021, 05:04:13 PM
Anti-Semitic my @$$, Ilhan Omar is 1,000,000x worse. This woman is on a crazy rant, which is what I find troublesome. But she isn't saying what the tweet says she is, and is stating a fact that is indeed true about Roger Kimmel. Nowhere does she say Rothschild Inc. fired any laser beams, seriously:



That Rothschild Inc is even mentioned in this context is MOST DEFINITELY from anti semitic tropes.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on January 28, 2021, 05:32:51 PM
Not sure I agree with whats being said, but its very well written.

A well-written wrong opinion is more damaging than a badly written one...

Do I have to point out each incorrect statement and bad argument in it?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 28, 2021, 06:11:42 PM

Great analogies.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 28, 2021, 06:12:57 PM
A well-written wrong opinion is more damaging than a badly written one...

Do I have to point out each incorrect statement and bad argument in it?
Very true. The pen killed many more people than a knife ever could.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 29, 2021, 02:58:04 AM
A well-written wrong opinion is more damaging than a badly written one...

Do I have to point out each incorrect statement and bad argument in it?

I couldn't find a correct one. This is literally a list of strawmen arguments at the very best.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on January 29, 2021, 09:07:53 AM
I couldn't find a correct one. This is literally a list of strawmen arguments at the very best.
If you couldn't find a correct one it says more about you than about what was written. The same would go for someone who couldn't find a wrong one.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Shaya E on January 29, 2021, 09:52:58 AM
If you couldn't find a correct one it says more about you than about what was written. The same would go for someone who couldn't find a wrong one.

Well, I went back and read it again and I still couldn't find even one point that wasn't either wrong or just a non sequiter. Putting two random things together doesn't necessarily make any of them wrong. I'm not even saying I like all those proposals but the conflating of different things is wrong. This is besides for the plenty of strawman arguments in that post.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on January 29, 2021, 04:04:08 PM
A play in three acts -

Invalid Tweet ID

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on February 01, 2021, 04:30:54 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/agent-fired-literary-agency-using-parler-gab-1564687
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on February 01, 2021, 04:48:39 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/agent-fired-literary-agency-using-parler-gab-1564687
The Jennifer De Chiara Literary Agency has in the past and will continue to ensure a voice of unity

That is, once were done firing everyone.

She should sue
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on February 01, 2021, 05:25:32 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/agent-fired-literary-agency-using-parler-gab-1564687

WT*? Is there any situation that she said anything offensive on those platforms, or is just using them enough?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on February 01, 2021, 06:02:26 PM
A play in three acts -

Invalid Tweet ID

They are so blind!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 04, 2021, 04:00:19 PM
The Democrats just removed Green from Georgia from all committee assignments.
A partisan vote, not sure if thats been done before
I wonder if theyll come to regret it sooner than later
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 04, 2021, 07:09:03 PM
The Democrats just removed Green from Georgia from all committee assignments.
A partisan vote, not sure if thats been done before
I wonder if theyll come to regret it sooner than later
Actually 2 RINOs voted for it, so now its bipartisan
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 04, 2021, 08:24:00 PM
Actually 2 RINOs voted for it, so now its bipartisan

11 Republicans voted to remove Greene, and yes that's pretty bipartisan

Carlos Gimenez
Mark Jacobs
John Katko
Young Kim
Adam Kinzinger
Nicole Malliotakis
Maria Elvira Salazar
Mario Diaz-Balart
Chris Smith
Fred Upton
Brian Fitzpatrick


Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 04, 2021, 10:18:22 PM
11 Republicans voted to remove Greene, and yes that's pretty bipartisan

Carlos Gimenez
Mark Jacobs
John Katko
Young Kim
Adam Kinzinger
Nicole Malliotakis
Maria Elvira Salazar
Mario Diaz-Balart
Chris Smith
Fred Upton
Brian Fitzpatrick

Interesting.

I would assume that all of them would vote 'no' on a direct question, "should Dems be allowed to remove a R member." I also think that a lot more members, possibly a majority, of Rs would've voted to remove her in a purely R vote.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 04, 2021, 10:24:13 PM
Interesting.

I would assume that all of them would vote 'no' on a direct question, "should Dems be allowed to remove a R member." I also think that a lot more members, possibly a majority, of Rs would've voted to remove her in a purely R vote.
The Republicans had the option to remove her without even putting it to a vote, but Kevin McCarthy is a doofus
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 04, 2021, 10:39:01 PM
The Republicans had the option to remove her without even putting it to a vote, but Kevin McCarthy is a doofus
+1.

Kevin McCarthy should've put it up for a vote last night.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 04, 2021, 11:54:01 PM
The Republicans had the option to remove her without even putting it to a vote, but Kevin McCarthy is a doofus
I dont think the way for the republicans to start winning again, is to fold to the Democrats. Thats not gonna work
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 04, 2021, 11:56:50 PM
I dont think the way for the republicans to start winning again, is to fold to the Democrats. Thats not gonna work
This shouldnt have a Democratic agenda. Plenty of Republicans see it as a primarily Republican problem.

The problem is the attitude that Republicans should oppose anything a democrat brings up or else its folding.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 04, 2021, 11:59:30 PM
This shouldnt have a Democratic agenda. Plenty of Republicans see it as a primarily Republican problem.

The problem is the attitude that Republicans should oppose anything a democrat brings up or else its folding.
Well not sure what planet your on, but the 2 parties are pretty far apart these days so its kinda hard to find places where republicans should agree with Dems, but for sure sidelining Green shouldnt be one of them
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on February 05, 2021, 12:02:36 AM
Is there a single person here who actually believes that a caucus that couldn't even get a clear condemnation of Ilhan Omar is kicking out Green because they are so offended by her conspiracy theories?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2021, 12:03:32 AM
Well not sure what planet your on, but the 2 parties are pretty far apart these days so its kinda hard to find places where republicans should agree with Dems, but for sure sidelining Green shouldnt be one of them
Plenty of Republicans disagree with you, starting with Mitch McConnell. Greene is beyond the pale
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 05, 2021, 12:05:27 AM
This shouldnt have a Democratic agenda. Plenty of Republicans see it as a primarily Republican problem.

The problem is the attitude that Republicans should oppose anything a democrat brings up or else its folding.
I happen to be all for a 60/40 caucus. But I dont think the Democrats would be willing to give in a drop anywhere. Anything therere gonna do now is all partisan.... and far left. So I dont think any republican should cross the aisles for basically anything right now
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2021, 12:07:45 AM
Is there a single person here who actually believes that a caucus that couldn't even get a clear condemnation of Ilhan Omar is kicking out Green because they are so offended by her conspiracy theories?
For those joining the conversation now, heres a picture Greene posted of herself carrying a machine gun with 3 Democrats titled Defeat The Democrats.


. So I dont think any republican should cross the aisles for basically anything right now
That was my point. Youre calling for partisanship by saying Republicans shouldnt support a single thing Democrats support, and then complaining the democrats are partisan. Its actually hilarious.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 05, 2021, 12:07:59 AM
Plenty of Republicans disagree with you, starting with Mitch McConnell. Greene is beyond the pale
First things first. Any politician is only out to save themselves and any republican trying to move away from Trump is doing it because they think its beneficial.
Second, I heard a few min of her speaking (I think it was today) and she was very good. And you prob wont here this wherever you get your news  from, she apologized and explained everything
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2021, 12:09:04 AM
she apologized and explained everything
No she did not (though whoever told you only 2 Rinos supported to bill to remove her may have lied to you about that too)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 05, 2021, 12:10:03 AM
For those joining the conversation now, heres a picture Greene posted of herself carrying a machine gun with 3 Democrats titled Defeat The Democrats.

That was my point. Youre calling for partisanship by saying Republicans shouldnt support a single thing Democrats support, and then complaining the democrats are partisan. Its actually hilarious.
Went right over your head, to simplify, dont support anything unless theyre willing to come to the middle and negotiate a little. Its not like the Dems have a massive majority and have a clear mandate from the People
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 05, 2021, 12:10:43 AM
No she did not
well of course, cuz CNN said so. 🙄
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2021, 12:12:40 AM
well of course, cuz CNN said so. 🙄
Easier to attack the other side than back up your claim isnt it?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 05, 2021, 12:15:04 AM
The clip I saw was from c span not sure if it was today or not
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 05, 2021, 01:49:58 AM


I'm all for censuring Ms Space Lasers or whatever, but please, spare me the righteous indignation from the woman who got bullied out of condemning extremism within her own caucus, and All Lives Mattered anti-Semitism. The notion that she has any moral high ground to speak about ridding her party of conspiracy theorists or extremists would be laughable if it weren't so disgraceful.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on February 05, 2021, 01:59:16 AM
The clip I saw was from c span not sure if it was today or not
It was today, and while she did not do much apologizing (more deflecting and distracting) she did make one valid point. Her point was that everything she said was in years past as a private citizen and common knowledge to the voters who voted her in, so removing her is kind of like impeaching Donald Trump for the Access Hollywood tape- going directly against the will of the people who voted for her with this information baked in.

A similar pickle to if Roy Moore would have been elected.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 05, 2021, 07:52:20 AM
It was today, and while she did not do much apologizing (more deflecting and distracting) she did make one valid point. Her point was that everything she said was in years past as a private citizen and common knowledge to the voters who voted her in, so removing her is kind of like impeaching Donald Trump for the Access Hollywood tape- going directly against the will of the people who voted for her with this information baked in.

A similar pickle to if Roy Moore would have been elected.
I agree, but I think there is a difference between impeaching someone from office or removing them from committees. Voters aren't the ones who put them on committees. If other Congressmen think she shouldn't be on committees, it's their prerogative. They may be voted out for that decision, but it's still their prerogative. It's not the same as removing someone from office who was voted in while the knowledge was available.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on February 07, 2021, 02:16:21 AM
https://nodejs.org/en/black-lives-matter/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 03:58:50 AM
I personally am very frustrated with Chris Smith for voting with the Democrats on Margery Tailor Green. Hes not is a competitive district, so why give in?

Yes, it is totally understandable that she should be booted from committees. But the need to stand up against Democrat bullies is much more important than booting her. He shouldve voted against it and put out a statement that he wouldve voted to strip her assignments but he would not bow to unprecedented bully tactics.

As a constituent and voter, I am disappointed in you @ChrisSmith.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 07, 2021, 11:16:37 AM
I personally am very frustrated with Chris Smith for voting with the Democrats on Margery Tailor Green. Hes not is a competitive district, so why give in?

Yes, it is totally understandable that she should be booted from committees. But the need to stand up against Democrat bullies is much more important than booting her. He shouldve voted against it and put out a statement that he wouldve voted to strip her assignments but he would not bow to unprecedented bully tactics.

As a constituent and voter, I am disappointed in you @ChrisSmith.
You are upset that he put what is right over politics? Am i missing something?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 11:53:04 AM
You are upset that he put what is right over politics? Am i missing something?
I think it's wrong to allow one party to control the other party's committee picks, as that is an escalation of the partisan nature of politics. I think that a vote against partisan escalation is more important than a vote against an apologetic nut.

So to answer your question. A vote for something right, with strong consequences, is more important than a vote for something right with weaker consequences.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 12:02:08 PM
To be really honest, I'm torn about whether Margery Tailor Green should've been stripped of her committee assignments. On one hand, you really don't want to give someone with such a weak sense of believability a position of power, because who knows what she may believe in the future. On the other hand, she issued a strong apology and only said those comments before she was voted into office.

As a wise man once said, if gullibility is a punishable offence, AOC should be stripped of all power after her Instagram video depiction of her experience on January 6.

(Chill out, so what if I make up quotes from wise men. As a wise men once said, if lying would be a punishable offence, there would be no politicians in Washington...)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 07, 2021, 12:29:24 PM
she issued a strong apology

Where?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 12:33:19 PM
Where?
She said it on the floor of the House, and in a subsequent press conference the following day. Obviously, she's a politician, and can be just saying the words that she needs to say to propel her career. But the same can be said for almost any apology, and the way apologies go, this one was pretty strong IMO.

See minute 45:45 here - https://www.c-span.org/video/?508492-2/house-votes-remove-rep-marjorie-taylor-greene-committees-230-199
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 07, 2021, 02:20:47 PM
I think it's wrong to allow one party to control the other party's committee picks, as that is an escalation of the partisan nature of politics. I think that a vote against partisan escalation is more important than a vote against an apologetic nut.

So to answer your question. A vote for something right, with strong consequences, is more important than a vote for something right with weaker consequences.
It is in the best interest of the Republican Party to marginalize the kooks. Even if you disagree with that, it is definitely the opinion of Chris Smith. He is highly unlikley to ascribe to your reasoning. He is more of a centrist R.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 03:10:25 PM
It is in the best interest of the Republican Party to marginalize the kooks. Even if you disagree with that, it is definitely the opinion of Chris Smith. He is highly unlikley to ascribe to your reasoning. He is more of a centrist R.
Why can't he marginalize the kooks by issuing a strong statement against her? In the statement he could say that he wished there could've been a traditional, party-line vote to boot her, but since it was done in an unprecedented bullyish way, he was forced to resort to a mere statement.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 07, 2021, 03:13:45 PM
Why can't he marginalize the kooks by issuing a strong statement against her? In the statement he could say that he wished there could've been a traditional, party-line vote to boot her, but since it was done in an unprecedented bullyish way, he was forced to resort to a mere statement.

For the same reason you wouldnever be satisfied with a "strong statement" against AOC, IO, or RT.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 07, 2021, 03:22:10 PM
For the same reason you wouldnever be satisfied with a "strong statement" against AOC, IO, or RT.
I think McCarthy is wrong. In fact, I would be happy if Smith would condemn McCarthy for not putting it up for a vote. But two wrongs don't make a right.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on February 08, 2021, 02:10:18 AM
She said it on the floor of the House, and in a subsequent press conference the following day. Obviously, she's a politician, and can be just saying the words that she needs to say to propel her career. But the same can be said for almost any apology, and the way apologies go, this one was pretty strong IMO.

See minute 45:45 here - https://www.c-span.org/video/?508492-2/house-votes-remove-rep-marjorie-taylor-greene-committees-230-199
She apologized for her anti-Semitic comments?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 08, 2021, 06:29:37 AM
She apologized for her anti-Semitic comments?
She didn't delineate every single one of her kook claims, but she said she's sorry for all the stuff she believed.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 08, 2021, 12:34:24 PM
Why is it that Microsoft Word finds "congressman" inappropriate, and seeks to change it to "congressional representative", while "congresswoman" is fine?


(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh028V6H/Screenshot-2021-02-08-123240.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on February 08, 2021, 03:07:01 PM
She didn't delineate every single one of her kook claims, but she said she's sorry for all the stuff she believed.
Which, of course, means nothing to me as a Jew.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 08, 2021, 03:45:48 PM
She said it on the floor of the House, and in a subsequent press conference the following day. Obviously, she's a politician, and can be just saying the words that she needs to say to propel her career. But the same can be said for almost any apology, and the way apologies go, this one was pretty strong IMO.

See minute 45:45 here - https://www.c-span.org/video/?508492-2/house-votes-remove-rep-marjorie-taylor-greene-committees-230-199

 
She didn't delineate every single one of her kook claims, but she said she's sorry for all the stuff she believed.

I'm going to humbly disagree and say that could barely be called an apology at all, let alone "pretty strong". Even the things she does specify, like David Hogg, she doesn't actually apologize for. And as far as low bars go, "9/11 happened" is a hall of famer.
In this "apology" she focuses more on unrelated issues such as abortion and her personal religious views than the issues in question, so it's not a matter of not being given enough time. And whenever she wasn't speaking of unrelated topics, she was making false equivalences, trying to martyr herself, and just generally sounding like a fool. She could have gotten a better speech written on Fiverr.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on February 08, 2021, 03:48:17 PM
Exactly. Don't know why anyone cares to defend this absurd excuse of a lady.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 08, 2021, 03:58:37 PM
Exactly. Don't know why anyone cares to defend this absurd excuse of a lady.
First, 90% of the Republicans vote against their principals to support a party member; then the  remaining 10% Republicans should vote against their principles to not give in to a democrat partisan vote
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yelped on February 08, 2021, 04:02:30 PM
First, 90% of the Republicans vote against their principals to support a party member; then the  remaining 10% Republicans should vote against their principles to not give in to a democrat partisan vote
Was this typo intentional?  :D
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 08, 2021, 04:05:54 PM
Was this typo intentional?  :D
😐
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: shabbosabba on February 08, 2021, 07:24:00 PM
Why is it that Microsoft Word finds "congressman" inappropriate, and seeks to change it to "congressional representative", while "congresswoman" is fine?


(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh028V6H/Screenshot-2021-02-08-123240.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Amen and a woman!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 10, 2021, 08:41:40 AM
Mark Cuban just said they will not be playing the National Anthem at home games
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on February 10, 2021, 12:35:24 PM
Mark Cuban just said they will not be playing the National Anthem at home games

Probably not as extreme as you think it is.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 10, 2021, 02:30:26 PM
Im a little surprised

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/nba-teams-will-play-national-anthem-games/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 10, 2021, 09:31:45 PM
As recently as 2015 the military paid the NFL to air the national anthem in order to help recruiting.

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/nfl-dod-national-anthem-6f682cebc7cd/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on February 11, 2021, 02:01:45 PM
Gina Carano cancelled

https://www.facebook.com/Theangryjew85/posts/1367620260279170

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 02:16:18 PM
Gina Carano cancelled

https://www.facebook.com/Theangryjew85/posts/1367620260279170


What a beautiful society where capitalism allows Disney to succeed and the First Amendment guarantees Disney's right to protect or condemn any political position it dislikes. I hope they use their power to censure harmful preachings from the Left as well and keep us all safer.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on February 11, 2021, 03:17:42 PM
Gina Carano cancelled

https://www.facebook.com/Theangryjew85/posts/1367620260279170
What did she say that was "abhorrent"
Maybe I'm missing something?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 03:25:48 PM
What did she say that was "abhorrent"
Maybe I'm missing something?
She compared people hating others bc of their political views to Nazis hating Jews during WW2.
Personally I dont think that statement was offensive, I think Disney saw that as the straw that broke the camels back.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on February 11, 2021, 03:31:24 PM
She compared people hating others bc of their political views to Nazis hating Jews during WW2.
Personally I dont think that statement was offensive, I think Disney saw that as the straw that broke the camels back.
I see as a poor comparison, but "abhorrent?"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 03:35:28 PM
I see as a poor comparison, but "abhorrent?"
I actually think its a fair comparison but FWIW its on top of anti masking & election Big Lie.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 11, 2021, 03:39:11 PM
I actually think its a fair comparison but FWIW its on top of anti masking & election Big Lie.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnFD14X3/Simon-Cowell-eyeroll-gif.gif)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 11, 2021, 05:56:33 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnFD14X3/Simon-Cowell-eyeroll-gif.gif)
Yes, it seems like Simon Cowell is the one who is judging who gets canceled and who doesn't.


BTW, Ben Shapiro devoted the first 15 or so minutes of today's podcast to
Gina Carano cancelled

https://www.facebook.com/Theangryjew85/posts/1367620260279170


Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 07:38:58 PM
Yes, it seems like Simon Cowell is the one who is judging who gets canceled and who doesn't.
Everybody gets to choose for themselves (and their company) who they want to cancel. That's exactly what freedom means.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on February 11, 2021, 07:47:02 PM
Everybody gets to choose for themselves (and their company) who they want to cancel. That's exactly what freedom means.

You keep bring up the fact that these companies have the right to do what they are doing. That is completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether it is the right thing for them to do.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 07:49:14 PM
That is completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether it is the right thing for them to do.
And you keep on ignoring the fact the constitution explicitly gives them the freedom to decide it's the right thing to do even if you think it's the wrong thing.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 11, 2021, 08:19:40 PM
And you keep on ignoring the fact the constitution explicitly gives them the freedom to decide it's the right thing to do even if you think it's the wrong thing.

This thread is about if we're going too far, not if we're behaving unconstitutionally.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 08:29:06 PM
This thread is about if we're going too far, not if we're behaving unconstitutionally.
Do you want to cancel me?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 11, 2021, 08:36:14 PM
Do you want to cancel me?

What does that even mean
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yo ssi on February 11, 2021, 09:06:20 PM
Do you want to cancel me?
What does that even mean
Say yes and we'll find out.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: shabbosabba on February 11, 2021, 10:37:18 PM
Do you want to cancel me?
I think that this begs the question of OP, "Are we going too far?"  :)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 11, 2021, 10:43:14 PM
Do you want to cancel me?
No. Unlike the far left, I (as well as the majority of America IMO) believe that a person should not be shunned because of his ideas. To the contrary, meaningful debate leads to positive changes.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 10:54:03 PM
No. Unlike the far left, I (as well as the majority of America IMO) believe that a person should not be shunned because of his ideas. To the contrary, meaningful debate leads to positive changes.
Really? Do you think people who deny the Holocaust shouldnt be shunned? Do you think people who claim Jews drink Christian blood shouldnt be shunned? Do you think people who claim it is immoral to buy products made in occupied territories shouldnt be shunned?

Sounds to me like you agree with the far left that some people should be shunned, the only argument is who should be shunned.

Its good that everybody gets to decide for themselves who to shun. Thats exactly what freedom is. If you think people are shunning the wrong people you have the freedom to attempt and change their mind.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 11, 2021, 10:56:37 PM
Really? Do you think people who deny the Holocaust shouldnt be shunned? Do you think people who claim Jews drink Christian blood shouldnt be shunned? Do you think people who claim it is immoral to buy products made in occupied territories shouldnt be shunned?

Sounds to me like you agree with the far left that some people should be shunned, the only argument is who should be shunned.

Its good that everybody gets to decide for themselves who to shun. Thats exactly what freedom is. If you think people are shunning the wrong people you have the freedom to attempt and change their mind.
IINM, we went through this exact sequence of discussion before.

Yes, companies are private and they can fire whoever they want. But we hope the costumers have a healthy-enough moral compass to know when to go along with it and when to pushback and provide equilibrium against the far-left cancel culture voices.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 11, 2021, 11:03:15 PM
IINM, we went through this exact sequence of discussion before.

Yes, companies are private and they can fire whoever they want. But we hope the costumers have a healthy-enough moral compass to know when to go along with it and when to pushback and provide equilibrium against the far-left cancel culture voices.
I have no argument with that. If you want to take your business away from a company or vendor because you disagree with their opinions, you are perfectly entitled to do so. But dont be incensed when the companies exercise the same freedom just bc you disagree with them.
Title: Strawman Building 101
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 12, 2021, 12:00:16 AM
Evidently PG doesn't live in the East Coast and hasn't gotten his fill building snow men, hence the need for the straw variety.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on February 12, 2021, 05:22:43 AM
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/02/11/redefining-anti-semitism-in-the-gina-carano-controversy-or-just-inaccurate-reporting/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 10:19:47 AM
And you keep on ignoring the fact the constitution explicitly gives them the freedom to decide it's the right thing to do even if you think it's the wrong thing.
Wait, you mean the liberals feel that companies are constitutionally protected?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 12:56:15 PM
Wait, you mean the liberals feel that companies are constitutionally protected?
Who cares what liberals feel? The law of the land is that companies are constituently protected.

We revel in our privilege to shun Disney when we don't like what they do, but complain when Disney exercises the exact same privilege to shun somebody they don't like. You can't have one without the other.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 01:23:33 PM
Who cares what liberals feel? The law of the land is that companies are constituently protected.

We revel in our privilege to shun Disney when we don't like what they do, but complain when Disney exercises the exact same privilege to shun somebody they don't like. You can't have one without the other.
Unless you are one of those who say that Cirtizen's United was ruled incorrectly.

FTR, in the past I have often argued how companies absolutely have the right to fire and censor as they please.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 01:37:23 PM
FTR, in the past I have often argued how companies absolutely have the right to fire and censor as they please.
Then we agree, I just think many people aren't realizing that the exact privilege they are claiming is violated is actually being exercised, morally as well as legally.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 01:45:51 PM
Then we agree, I just think many people aren't realizing that the exact privilege they are claiming is violated is actually being exercised, morally as well as legally.


Sort of on the morally part of it. When the line is drawn too tight then it becomes an issue. I don't think that many would complain if someone was fired for saying a racial slur at someone or the like, but the idea of firing for anything someone says a bit contrvetial becomes ridiculous. I have no clue about the case at hand here, who it is about, or what s/he said, so I have no opinion at all about where this case fits.

The flip side of this is how so many of the same people who are pushing Disney to exercise this right are the same ones who were fighting to pack the court in order to take this right away from them.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 01:50:15 PM
Sort of on the morally part of it. When the line is drawn too tight then it becomes an issue.
True, but fundamentally if you are entitled to self determine what's right and what's wrong, they have the same right. Many people will behave ridiculously as a result of that, but we like it because it allows us to behave in a way we think is right.

In terms of employment specifically there are many laws in place (many of which I think are actually unfair)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 01:52:35 PM
True, but fundamentally if you are entitled to self determine what's right and what's wrong, they have the same right. Many people will behave ridiculously as a result of that, but we like it because it allows us to behave in a way we think is right.

In terms of employment specifically there are many laws in place (many of which I think are actually unfair)
So there is nothing at all wrong with people complaining when they feel the line is drawn too tight.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 01:55:37 PM
So there is nothing at all wrong with people complaining when they feel the line is drawn too tight.

If their complaint is that they think Disney should think differently, they're perfectly entitled.

If their complaint is that Disney shouldn't be allowed to think wrongly, they're fundamentally wrong.

If you think Reform Jews are believing incorrectly, good for you.

If you think Reform Jews shouldn't be allowed by the government to believe incorrectly, you're fundamentally wrong.

Now, do you not think a survey here would show 50%+ of people think Twitter/Disney etc are acting illegally?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 02:07:36 PM

Now, do you not think a survey here would show 50%+ of people think Twitter/Disney etc are acting illegally?
That is simple ignorance.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:10:54 PM
That is simple ignorance.
Yup, and that ignorance is what I'm trying to argue with.

You'll notice a poster here quickly reversed his position from 'nobody should be shunned' to 'everybody can be shunned and I'm happy I can shun the shunners'
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 02:13:32 PM
Yup, and that ignorance is what I'm trying to argue with.

You'll notice a poster here quickly reversed his position from 'nobody should be shunned' to 'everybody can be shunned and I'm happy I can shun the shunners'
I don't see any such thing.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:16:11 PM
I don't see any such thing.
Here:

No. Unlike the far left, I (as well as the majority of America IMO) believe that a person should not be shunned because of his ideas.

Yes, companies are private and they can fire whoever they want. But we hope the costumers have a healthy-enough moral compass to know when to go along with it and when to pushback

(Not trying to shame him, I respect him for modifying his position as a result of evolving understanding)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 12, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
If their complaint is that Disney shouldn't be allowed to think wrongly, they're fundamentally wrong.

Did a single person make this claim?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:24:51 PM
Did a single person make this claim?
Explicitly in this thread? No. Did I say somebody did?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Here:

(Not trying to shame him, I respect him for modifying his position as a result of evolving understanding)
I think you were "going too far" in what he meant to say in the first place.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:32:10 PM
I think you were "going too far" in what he meant to say in the first place.
So basically we now pretty much agree, and we're arguing if somebody had a הווא אמינא differently...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 12, 2021, 02:51:27 PM
Explicitly in this thread? No. Did I say somebody did?

You have consistently argued that point when no one has made that claim, even after that was pointed out to you multiple times
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:52:58 PM
You have consistently argued that point when no one has made that claim, even after that was pointed out to you multiple times
So why does it bother you so much? Just agree with it and move on.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on February 12, 2021, 02:54:40 PM
If their complaint is that they think Disney shouldn't redefine and belittle anti-semitism, they're perfectly entitled.

FTFY
It's not just the employee that's being harmed, every Jew is harmed by such a firing and should call out Disney for it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: jj1000 on February 12, 2021, 03:08:41 PM
Same employer same show... One of these got someone fired, can you spot the difference?



(https://i.postimg.cc/x1P34LtT/a4464747bd4cca19c911d1dc8dfc6703.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKsV51Bb/Whats-App-Image-2021-02-12-at-1-45-53-AM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zFw75xr)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YC7xRdNs/Whats-App-Image-2021-02-12-at-1-46-24-AM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2VHv8FKQ)

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 12, 2021, 03:55:29 PM
I was scrolling up looking at the images, trying to guess who posted it.
 I was sure it @PlatinumGuy , until I read the whole post
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 12, 2021, 04:10:05 PM
Same employer same show... One of these got someone fired, can you spot the difference?
(https://i.postimg.cc/YC7xRdNs/Whats-App-Image-2021-02-12-at-1-46-24-AM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2VHv8FKQ)

Not to mention, the picture is from 2014, not 2018
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 12, 2021, 05:04:03 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 03:54:29 AM

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state? Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.

Or can we agree this is clearly a case of right wing politicians going too far to impose Christian values?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on February 14, 2021, 07:28:46 AM

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state? Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.

Or can we agree this is clearly a case of right wing politicians going too far to impose Christian values?

Whats more horrible than the blanket ban on abortions (that would exclude these extreme situations) is that the perpetrator of sexual violence can still hold power over their victim beyond the actual event. Its one thing for the government to make such a decision, morality and all, and another for handing that power over to a despicable criminal.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 08:30:34 AM
Same employer same show... One of these got someone fired, can you spot the difference?
BTW Daily Wire hired her to make a film for them.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 14, 2021, 08:38:43 AM
BTW Daily Wire hired her to make a film for them.

Ah, you mean the vaunted motion picture studio and fierce Disney competitor, Daily Wire? Lucky her, she ended up better off.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 10:17:45 AM
Ah, you mean the vaunted motion picture studio and fierce Disney competitor, Daily Wire? Lucky her, she ended up better off.
She's getting a paycheck.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 14, 2021, 06:34:04 PM

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?
Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.
Source?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 06:54:01 PM
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?

Do you think murdering a human and murdering a fetus are exactly the same thing, or is there a little difference? The Torah explicitly does not consider murder to include abortion. There are 2 key differences IMHO. First, a human being is a soul, the body is just a wrapper. The soul isn't fully present in this world until birth no matter how late stage the pregnancy is. Second, abortion isn't proactively taking independent life, it is simply removing the mothers protection. Why should the mother be forced to sustain life, of a rapist no less?

An abortion is preserving the woman's sovereignty on her body.  That includes the freedom to sin with her body. The Torah doesn't place penultimate value on freedom, so we believe a woman is generally obligated to sustain the infant, and stopping the pregnancy is a severe moral transgression. But do we want the government to enforce our religious obligations? The Torah considers marital infidelity and incest to be far worse than abortion. Do we want the government to tell people who to sleep with? What about if the majority of a Chrisitian country want to impose the Catholic ban on divorce?

If a fetus's rights are so valuable that they warrant governmental intervention to compel the mother to fulfill her obligations toward it, what will you to those who argue an 8 day old baby shouldn't have its body mutilated because of our religious belief? We don't want a nanny state. The government shouldn't tell us what we should do to our babies, and it shouldn't force mothers to maintain pregnancies they aren't interested in, whether they are morally and religiously obligated to or not.

Source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion
See here to start, happy to discuss if you have a more specific question.

The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 06:58:08 PM
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/search?search=abortion&filter=%7B%7D
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 14, 2021, 07:01:35 PM
We don't want a nanny state.
Im so confused!
I really thought I had you figured out
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 07:02:32 PM
Im so confused!
I really thought I had you figured out
Not even close.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 14, 2021, 07:04:16 PM
Not even close.
You mean you dont drive a Prius with Bernie for president  and Coexist bumper stickers???
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on February 14, 2021, 07:04:40 PM
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/search?search=abortion&filter=%7B%7D
Can you recommend one?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 07:06:38 PM
Can you recommend one?
No. I went there looking for a shiur from Rabbi Frand, which I would recommend, but they didn't have it. I personally would most want to listen to Rav Gifter, not so much for the halachic analysis, as I'm sure there are others that would speak faster and say a lot more, but because he was a phenomenal speaker.

ETA: This was the Rabbi Frand shiur. I heard it many years ago, but I remember that it gave me a clear picture of the sugya. It costs $2.99 though to buy. https://torahmedia.com/flexcart/searchResults.php?sid=&cid=31h9e452nu524tx&evid=5yud447u2w&directlink=21439
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 14, 2021, 07:12:46 PM
Do you think murdering a human and murdering a fetus are exactly the same thing, or is there a little difference? The Torah explicitly does not consider murder to include abortion. There are 2 key differences IMHO. First, a human being is a soul, the body is just a wrapper. The soul isn't fully present in this world until birth no matter how late stage the pregnancy is. Second, abortion isn't proactively taking independent life, it is simply removing the mothers protection. Why should the mother be forced to sustain life, of a rapist no less?

An abortion is preserving the woman's sovereignty on her body.  That includes the freedom to sin with her body. The Torah doesn't place penultimate value on freedom, so we believe a woman is generally obligated to sustain the infant, and stopping the pregnancy is a severe moral transgression. But do we want the government to enforce our religious obligations? The Torah considers marital infidelity and incest to be far worse than abortion. Do we want the government to tell people who to sleep with? What about if the majority of a Chrisitian country want to impose the Catholic ban on divorce?

If a fetus's rights are so valuable that they warrant governmental intervention to compel the mother to fulfill her obligations toward it, what will you to those who argue an 8 day old baby shouldn't have its body mutilated because of our religious belief? We don't want a nanny state. The government shouldn't tell us what we should do to our babies, and it shouldn't force mothers to maintain pregnancies they aren't interested in, whether they are morally and religiously obligated to or not.

I wasn't talking about my personal views.
I asked a simple question and it wasn't answered. This has nothing to do with yiddishkeit. For any regular American who considers abortion akin to murder, why should it be allowed in a case of rape?
 
As far as your Wikipedia article, the only part I noticed was the [citation needed].
So...
Source?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
For any regular American who considers abortion akin to murder, why should it be allowed in a case of rape?
If any regular American considers killing cows 'akin to murder', should it be illegal?

What if they consider it OK only if it's euthanized, and only Shechita is murder?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 14, 2021, 07:26:53 PM
If any regular American considers killing cows 'akin to murder', should it be illegal?

What if they consider it OK only if it's euthanized, and only Shechita is murder?
So you're comparing the 2?
ETA: Still waiting on the source.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 14, 2021, 07:29:36 PM
So you're comparing the 2?
Thats what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 14, 2021, 07:31:41 PM
Thats what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia
You may be mixing up cause and effect.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on February 14, 2021, 07:46:23 PM
If you think it's murder, why should it matter? Source?
Not even close.
No. I went there looking for a shiur from Rabbi Frand, which I would recommend, but they didn't have it. I personally would most want to listen to Rav Gifter, not so much for the halachic analysis, as I'm sure there are others that would speak faster and say a lot more, but because he was a phenomenal speaker.

ETA: This was the Rabbi Frand shiur. I heard it many years ago, but I remember that it gave me a clear picture of the sugya. It costs $2.99 though to buy. https://torahmedia.com/flexcart/searchResults.php?sid=&cid=31h9e452nu524tx&evid=5yud447u2w&directlink=21439
Thats what happens when you get Halacha
Please move over here.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72246.0
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 07:53:21 PM
Please move over here.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72246.0
No need.

Those other posts were probably cleared off a thread where there was meaningful conversation taking place before the topic came up. Over here, it's not disturbing anyone...  :P
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on February 14, 2021, 07:56:32 PM
No need.

Those other posts were probably cleared off a thread where there was meaningful conversation taking place before the topic came up. Over here, it's not disturbing anyone...  :P
+1
Id give you a like, but I dont want to be an enabler
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on February 14, 2021, 07:59:03 PM
+1
Id give you a like, but I dont want to be an enabler
I don't even want your likes! OKAY?!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 08:03:42 PM
So you're comparing the 2?
ETA: Still waiting on the source.

No, I'm demonstrating that even you agree that people thinking something is murder it doesn't make it murder. If thinking killing a cow is murder doesn't make it murder, thinking killing a fetus is murder doesn't make it murder either.

This is where the Torah comes in. As far as I'm concerned, if the Torah says I'm a monkey, I'm a monkey. If the Torah says abortion is not murder, it isn't murder, and it doesn't matter what people think it is.


ETA: Still waiting on the source.
Source that rape victims are allowed to abort? Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on February 14, 2021, 08:15:14 PM
Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?

שופך דם האדם באדם, דמו ישפוך
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 09:03:58 PM
שופך דם האדם באדם, דמו ישפוך
That issur is only for Goyim. The conversation was about Jews, let's try again.


The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on February 15, 2021, 01:20:41 AM
That issur is only for Goyim. The conversation was about Jews, let's try again.


the government should be legislating according to the dinim of b'nai noach, not holding 300m goyim to the halachic standard of jews
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 15, 2021, 01:27:09 AM
the government should be legislating according to the dinim of b'nai noach, not holding 300m goyim to the halachic standard of jews
You want the government to enforce all dinim of Bnai Noach? Should infidelity be illegal as well?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on February 15, 2021, 01:47:33 AM
You want the government to enforce all dinim of Bnai Noach? Should infidelity be illegal as well?
yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.

If they were taking on the whole mutzvos b'nai noach, I'd forego the constitution
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 15, 2021, 12:47:11 PM
No, I'm demonstrating that even you agree that people thinking something is murder it doesn't make it murder. If thinking killing a cow is murder doesn't make it murder, thinking killing a fetus is murder doesn't make it murder either.

This is where the Torah comes in. As far as I'm concerned, if the Torah says I'm a monkey, I'm a monkey. If the Torah says abortion is not murder, it isn't murder, and it doesn't matter what people think it is.
I was under the impression we were discussing US law, not Torah. As you posted,
Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state? Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.
And I asked
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?
Plenty here think of it as murder or akin to that. Why should it matter if they're a rape victim?
As far as

Source that rape victims are allowed to abort? Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?
Mishneh Torah, Melachim 9:4
בֶּן נֹחַ שֶׁהָרַג נֶפֶשׁ אֲפִלּוּ עֵבָּר בִּמְעֵי אִמּוֹ נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג טְרֵפָה אוֹ שֶׁכְּפָתוֹ וּנְתָנוֹ לִפְנֵי אֲרִי אוֹ שֶׁהִנִּיחוֹ בָּרָעָב עַד שֶׁמֵּת. הוֹאִיל וְהֵמִית מִכָּל מָקוֹם נֶהֱרָג. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג רוֹדֵף שֶׁיָּכוֹל לְהַצִּילוֹ בְּאֶחָד מֵאֵיבָרָיו נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. מַה שֶּׁאֵין כֵּן בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל:

A non-Jew who kills someone, even a fetus in its mothers womb, is executed.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 15, 2021, 12:56:06 PM
Plenty here think of it as murder or akin to that

They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.


As far asMishneh Torah, Melachim 9:4
בֶּן נֹחַ שֶׁהָרַג נֶפֶשׁ אֲפִלּוּ עֵבָּר בִּמְעֵי אִמּוֹ נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג טְרֵפָה אוֹ שֶׁכְּפָתוֹ וּנְתָנוֹ לִפְנֵי אֲרִי אוֹ שֶׁהִנִּיחוֹ בָּרָעָב עַד שֶׁמֵּת. הוֹאִיל וְהֵמִית מִכָּל מָקוֹם נֶהֱרָג. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג רוֹדֵף שֶׁיָּכוֹל לְהַצִּילוֹ בְּאֶחָד מֵאֵיבָרָיו נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. מַה שֶּׁאֵין כֵּן בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל:

A non-Jew who kills someone, even a fetus in its mothers womb, is executed.
As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

Again,
The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.

Do you have an answer?

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.

yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.

If they were taking on the whole mutzvos b'nai noach, I'd forego the constitution
So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 15, 2021, 02:25:52 PM
They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.


Lol. You asked
Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?
I responded based on the opinion of anybody here, not yours. In addition, the Torah that you're quoting equates it with murder for a non-jew. Evidenced by the Rambam who holds that its part of the issur shefichas damim for Goyim.


As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

You asked for a source before you provided your source, I gave one. If you want one for Yidden, see tosafos sanhedrin 59a ועל העוברים דעובד כוכבים חייב וישראל פטור אע"ג דפטור מ"מ לא שרי
Never mind that you completely made up that most poskim hold it's mutar in a case of rape. In addition, your assertion doesn't stand even had I not brought a source.
Again,
Do you have an answer?
See Tosafos above. As well as the fact that we need a heter where the child is a rodef. Obviously assur if not.

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.
How does your position stand up to anything? You claimed most poskim hold something, and you have not brought any.
So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.
You're the one who brought in the Torah so I responded to that. My original point was an answer to your question
Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?
To many it makes a lot of sense, since
 
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on February 15, 2021, 03:16:26 PM
They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.

As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

Again,
Do you have an answer?

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.
So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.
See Igros Moshe C"M 2 Siman 69 (https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=291&hilite=)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 15, 2021, 09:20:47 PM
Thats what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia
בכל דרכיך דעהו
In addition, the Torah that you're quoting equates it with murder for a non-jew.

This is not true, it is a secondary issur but absolutely not identical to murder. The fact that the Torah did not include fetus's in the prime issur for Jews prove the 2 actions are objectively distinct. Additionally, if you accept the Torah's definition of prohibited abortion, it may only apply after 40 days or etc.

Evidenced by the Rambam who holds that its part of the issur shefichas damim for Goyim
He says that also about כפתו ונתנו ברעב (and presumably even other cases of צמצם עליו את המים) that aren't punishable to Jews and are clearly distinct from proactive first degree murder.

So abortion is definitely not just as much 'murder' as a regular human, even if both are prohibited. People thinking it is murder doesn't make it murder.

Does anybody think it is fair for people to think something is murder and use that to force a woman who isn't their property to be pregnant for 9 months, when she was forced into the pregnancy in the first place?

If you want one for Yidden, see tosafos sanhedrin 59a ועל העוברים דעובד כוכבים חייב וישראל פטור אע"ג דפטור מ"מ לא שרי
According to many Achronim he means an Issur no different than contraception

How does your position stand up to anything? You claimed most poskim hold something, and you have not brought any.
Was waiting to see if you were intent on having a serious conversation before I put in the effort, here you go:

רש"י על סנהדרין ע״ב ב:י״ד:א׳
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יצא ראשו - באשה המקשה לילד ומסוכנת וקתני רישא החיה פושטת ידה וחותכתו ומוציאתו לאברים דכל זמן שלא יצא לאויר העולם לאו נפש הוא

Ramban, Torat HaAdam Shaar HaMechush Inyan Sakanah
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תינוק בן יום אחד וההורגו חייב, ודוקא בן יום אחד אבל עובר לא, וקרא נמי כתיב דמשלם דמי ולדות, אפילו הכי לענין שמירת מצות מחללין עליה, אמרה תורה חלל עליו שבת אחת שמא ישמור שבתות הרבה. הלכך אפי בהצלת עובר פחות מבן ארבעים יום שאין לו חיות כלל מחללין עליו כדעת בעל הלכות.

שות מהריט, א:צט  (https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_Maharit%2C_I.99.2?lang=bi&with=Sheets&lang2=en=)

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ולהתעסק עמה שתפיל פרי בטנה איבוד נפשות אין כאן דאפילו בישראל נפלים לאו נפש הוא וממון הוא דחייב רחמנא דמי וולדות לבעל דכתיב כאשר ישית עליו בעל האשה ובריש הנחנקין אמרינן ואצטריך למכתב מכה איש ומת ואצטריך למכתב כל מכה נפש דאי כתיב כל מכה נפש הוה אמינא אפילו נפלים קמשמע לן ובפרק יוצא דופן דרשינן כל נפש לרבות קטן בן יום אחד דמשמע כל נפש אפילו נפש כל דהו אלמא נפלים אפי' נפש כל דהוא לא מקרי ובסוף פרק קמא דערכין תנן האשה שהיא יוצאה ליהרג אין ממתינין לה עד שתלד ופרכינן פשיטא גופה היא סד"א הואיל וכתיב אשר ישית עליו בעל האשה ממונא דבעל הוא ולא לפסדיה מיניה קמשמע לן ומדפריך פשיטא משמע דמחמת איבוד נפשות אין נדנוד כלל ולא אתא לאשמועינן אלא משום פסידא דבעל ואמרינן התם האשה שהיא יוצאה ליהרג מכין אותה כנגד בית הריון שלה כדי שימות הולד תחילה שלא תבא לידי ניול אלמא בשביל ניול האם הורגים הולד בידים ולא חשו משום איבוד נפשות הילכך בישראלית מפני צורך אמו נראה שמותר להתעסק עמהם שתפילנה כיון דרפואת אמו


חוות יאיר ל"א (https://www.sefaria.org/Havot_Yair.31.9?lang=bie=)

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ועל דבר שאלתך אשת איש שהרה לזנונים ואחר המעשה נתחרט' ונתנה קולה בבכי גם יום גם לילה אל תתני פוגת בת עינה רק הורידה כנחל דמעה והטיחה ראשה בכותל עד כי זוב דמה מראשה והגידה לבעלה וגם בקשה מחכם שיסדרו לה תשוב' וככל אשר יושבת עלי' תעשה. רק כאשר חששה שנתעברה ממנ' באשר מאז שנעשה המעשה פסק וסתה אשר היה לה תמידין כסדרן בהיותה תחת בעלה כמה שנים הלכה אל חכם ושאלו לו אם רשאית לגמוע דבר מאבקת רוכל לשלשל זרע המקולל אשר בקרבה ובקשת דעתי בזה...

ולפי המשך דברי התו' היה נראה דיש כאן ג' חילוקי דינים בעובר דכשמתה אמו חייב ההורגו לעובר בדעקר. ובעדיין חיה ההורג פטור אבל אסור להורגו דעקר מש"כ מש"כ כדאכתי לא עקר משמע דמותר.
ובאמת התוס' לא נחתו לחלק בפ' בחילוק פטור או מותר. ולכאורה משמע דאפי' עקר נמי מותר...

ומ"מ מקמי דעקר נראה דלכ"ע מותר



וא"כ לפי מ"ש היה היתר גמור שאלתך אשר שאלת מדין תורה לולי המנהג הפשוט בינינו וביניהם מפני גדר פרצות המריצות והזונים אחריהם.



שות שאילת יעבץ חלק א סימן מג

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אם יש איסור לקלקל עובר בבטן אמו שזינתה. בין פנויה בין אשת איש.
תשובה בס חות יאיר (אחר סי לא) מצאתי שנשאל הרב בעל הס על אשת איש הרה לזנונים. ואחר המעשה נתחרטה כו אם רשאה לגמוע דבר מאבקת רוכל לשלשל זרע המקולל אשר בקרבה
כן נל שיש מקום להקל כיון שניאפה זאת ודם בידיה. מעתה בת קטלא היא מדין תורה. אף שאין דמה מסור בידינו להורגה. מכל מקום חייבת מיתה בדין שמים. אעג דממזר כשיצא לאויר העולם. דינו ככשר שחייבין על הריגתו. מיהת השתא דירך אמו הוא. ואילו היה דינה מסור בידינו. היינו ממיתים אותה ואת פרי בטנה על כן היה נל
פשוט שאין איסור גם כן בהשחתתו. אעפ שאימא קיימת

 וגם בעובר כשר הי צד להקל לצורך גדול. כל כמה דלא עקר. אפי אינו משום פקוח נפש אמו. אלא להציל לה מרעתו. שגורם לה כאב גדול וצע.

ציץ אליעזר ח"ט נא, ג, ג https://www.hebrewbooks.org/14508
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יב אשת איש שזנתה או נאנסה ונתעברה ואפילו מעכום שאין הולד ממזר וחזרה בתשובה, מצדדים כמה מגדולי הפוס להתיר לסדר הפלה אי משום בזיונה ואי משום חלול השם ופגם ובזיון המשפחה [ואי משום נימוקים אחרים הנזכרים בפנים


(yes, yes, I know not every rape makes a mamzer)


As well as the fact that we need a heter where the child is a rodef.
 
The Gemara only mentions that in a case when the birth process began. (See above from Tosefos that differentiates)

yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.
Basically you want the USA to give you freedom to pursue your religion even when it is against their beliefs (divorce, bris, shechita), but don't want to reciprocate and give them freedom to commit acts that you believe are a sin.

According to the torah, while we are in Galus the goyim are entitled to enslave and persecute us. Would you be comfortable with that too or would you still prefer we don't let the US government enforce the rules of the torah?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2021, 09:05:24 AM
Does anybody think it is fair for people to think something is murder and use that to force a woman who isn't their property to be pregnant for 9 months, when she was forced into the pregnancy in the first place?


Where does "fair" come into the picture?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 16, 2021, 01:54:56 PM

We can argue if you want to call it murder or not. (I'd think it's more similar to killing a treifah, which most would call murder, not tying s/o up). Eitherway, the Rambam includes it in the din shfichas damim for a Goy. So the question remains, why should you allow it for a rape victim?


As far as the sources you bring, the first few are just noise. (Not talking about allowing abortions.)
The Maharit, though he's only talking about a yid to a goya, says mutar. (Though according to the Yaavetz you quote, his proof isn't a proof.)
The Ch"y actually comes out that it's assur to do a maaseh at the end of the teshuva.
The Yaavetz' heter is because she's anyways mechuyav misah. By rape he leaves with tzarich iyun.

Hardly "most" acharonim.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: gozalim on February 16, 2021, 03:57:55 PM
Basically you want the USA to give you freedom to pursue your religion even when it is against their beliefs (divorce, bris, shechita), but don't want to reciprocate and give them freedom to commit acts that you believe are a sin.

According to the torah, while we are in Galus the goyim are entitled to enslave and persecute us. Would you be comfortable with that too or would you still prefer we don't let the US government enforce the rules of the torah?
in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

if you want to discuss torah's view on abortion as relates to US law, דיני בני נח is the better basis than דיני ישראל. not that there's constitutional basis for enforcing either one
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 16, 2021, 10:10:53 PM
Hardly "most" acharonim.

Even 2 Acrhonim is most if nobody argues with them.

Is there a single Achron other than RMF who holds it is assur for somebody pregnant with a Mamzer to abort?

 
We can argue if you want to call it murder or not.
There is nothing to argue about it. You can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

(I'd think it's more similar to killing a treifah, which most would call murder, not tying s/o up).

Seriously? Would Rashi say a Treifa isn't 'Nefesh'??? Would the Achronim who say aboriton isn't assur at all also hold that killing a treifa is murder??? Would Achronim who say the only issur is similar to contraception also think contraception is worse than killing a Triefa???

The Torah is the ruler, and it shows beyond a shadow of doubt that killing a Treifah is worse than killing a fetus, and the fact that you instinctively thinks so means you should be reconciling you're natural inclination with the truth.

Eitherway, the Rambam includes it in the din shfichas damim for a Goy. So the question remains, why should you allow it for a rape victim?

You're asking me why something should be allowed, but the baseline is freedom. Everybody can do what they wish. You have to justify why you can stop someone from doing something?

Why should you be allowed to impose your opinion on what is and isn't murder on a woman who was forced into a pregnancy because your religion considers it a sin to abort?

I'll repeat the same question. If 99% of the country believe hinduism or some religion that would consider killing cows worse than killing people, and call it 'murder'. Does that give them the right to decide you cannot kill cows?


in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

I tend to agree with your position as I understand it - banning abortion is technically not in line with the American guarantee of freedom, and shouldn't be legal, but I like the ban anyways because I believe it forwards the will of Hashem.

Just don't forget, in the perfect world of 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach that you yearn for, you can also be persecuted and enslaved.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on February 16, 2021, 10:14:13 PM
in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

if you want to discuss torah's view on abortion as relates to US law, דיני בני נח is the better basis than דיני ישראל. not that there's constitutional basis for enforcing either one

Even if it were possible the Shulchan Aryeh for 7 Noahide laws wasnt written, and if there was as much Rabbinic literature on the topic as there is on Halacha for Jews there would be just as many shitos.

Additionally, the 7th Noahide law is to establish courts of law. The implementation of that in the context of the US constitution/modern values w/r/t civil liberties would have to be delineated. I dont think the Torahs approach on that topic is all that clear or agreed upon by all DDFers, let alone all poskim.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on February 16, 2021, 10:17:15 PM
iYou can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

This whole discussion about murder is silly. Youre certainly killing a living being. Murder by definition means killing someone unlawfully or immorally. So your very discussion about whether its prohibited or not is basically whether the Torah considers it murder or not. If theres a legal/halachic exception then the killing isnt called murder.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 17, 2021, 12:30:45 PM
Even 2 Acrhonim is most if nobody argues with them.

Is there a single Achron other than RMF who holds it is assur for somebody pregnant with a Mamzer to abort?

 
Except that the CH"Y you brought says assur. So all you have is a maharit.
Don't switch to mamzer, we were talking about rape.
In addition, since we know abortion is assur in general, the assumption is it applies to rape as well until proven otherwise.

There is nothing to argue about it. You can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

So you're agreeing it's a form of murder? (Can we call it abizrayhu?) Then the question: Why should it be allowed in a case of rape?
Seriously? Would Rashi say a Treifa isn't 'Nefesh'??? Would the Achronim who say aboriton isn't assur at all also hold that killing a treifa is murder??? Would Achronim who say the only issur is similar to contraception also think contraception is worse than killing a Triefa???

The Torah is the ruler, and it shows beyond a shadow of doubt that killing a Treifah is worse than killing a fetus, and the fact that you instinctively thinks so means you should be reconciling you're natural inclination with the truth.
I don't think it's the same thing, just more comparable than tying up a person who starves.
You're asking me why something should be allowed, but the baseline is freedom. Everybody can do what they wish. You have to justify why you can stop someone from doing something?

Why should you be allowed to impose your opinion on what is and isn't murder on a woman who was forced into a pregnancy because your religion considers it a sin to abort?

I'll repeat the same question. If 99% of the country believe hinduism or some religion that would consider killing cows worse than killing people, and call it 'murder'. Does that give them the right to decide you cannot kill cows?

I honestly never intended to get into the actual discussion if I think it should be illegal. (Would need to be in person to explain my opinions.) I was just asking why you think that cases of rape should be viewed differently for anyone who thinks it's murder. I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that. If your whole argument is that it's not murder, you agreed above that it's a form of murder even if not the same as first degree. So why should we allow it in a case of rape?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 17, 2021, 10:12:32 PM
Except that the CH"Y you brought says assur. So all you have is a maharit.
And the Tzitz Eliezer. Of course after you cancelled Rashi and the Ramban because they don't fit your personal feelings.

So, I'm at 2 Achronim, you're at 1. I have most achronim.

Don't switch to mamzer, we were talking about rape.
By rape I meant in case where the baby would be a mazer. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. Nevertheless, rape would normally qualify as צורך גדול.

I don't think it's the same thing, just more comparable than tying up a person who starves.
But it's not more comparable. That can be proven (tying somebody up to starve is חייב בדיני שמים, abortion according to some is not), but you refuse to believe in the Torah because you think you know better.


.I honestly never intended to get into the actual discussion if I think it should be illegal.

The conversation was about the Tennessee legislature, not the moral values. I'm asking again, why should someone thinking something is murder give them authority to prevent a raped woman from aborting, and how would that be different than people who think slaughtering a cow is abhorrent preventing you from eating steak?

You keep on evading by attacking me and changing the question into why it should be allowed, but the natural state is that everything is allowed, you need justification to interfere in somebody's life and actions.

I was just asking why you think that cases of rape should be viewed differently for anyone who thinks it's murder. I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that. If your whole argument is that it's not murder, you agreed above that it's a form of murder even if not the same as first degree. So why should we allow it in a case of rape?

A rape victim is monumentally different because it is much more reasonable to compel a woman to maintain a pregnancy that she entered willingly and has obligations towards than one she was violently forced into and was vehemently uninterested in to begin with. You're basically saying you don't understand the difference between forcing parents to feed their kids, and forcing a family to accept a foster care child and feed them.

Do you not agree?

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on February 17, 2021, 10:44:23 PM
See Igros Moshe C"M 2 Siman 69 (https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=291&hilite=)
Did you bother reading this t'shuvah? because Rav Moshe Feinstein address all of your claims!
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 17, 2021, 10:48:51 PM
Did you bother reading this t'shuvah? because Rav Moshe Feinstein address all of your claims!
Yes I read it carefully, and I appreciate that you posted it, thank you. As far as I can tell, RMF is a minority opinion both in believing abortion is always assur and in believing the source of the issur is murder as opposed to בל תשחית. Do you know anybody else who holds like him?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yungermanchik on February 17, 2021, 10:58:04 PM
Yes I read it carefully, and I appreciate that you posted it, thank you. As far as I can tell, RMF is a minority opinion both in believing abortion is always assur and in believing the source of the issur is murder as opposed to בל תשחית. Do you know anybody else who holds like him?
So why do you keep pretending that all the rishonim hold it's not.
The Chavos Yair and the other tshovas maharit as well as most of the other mareh mekomos quoted in the Igros.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 17, 2021, 11:08:25 PM
So why do you keep pretending that all the rishonim hold it's not.
On the contrary, I acknowledged there is an exception:

So, I'm at 2 Achronim, you're at 1. I have most achronim.
Referring to RMF. Do you not think he is a minority opinion?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 18, 2021, 12:16:33 PM
Of course after you cancelled Rashi and the Ramban because they don't fit your personal feelings.


I didn't cancel them, they're not discussing abortion.

So, I'm at 2 Achronim, you're at 1. I have most achronim.


What about the CH"Y? That's 2 against a Maharit. And the Yaavetz that leaves with tzarich iyun.
In addition you not bringing other Acharonim is hardly proof they don't exist. I asked you for a source for the claim that MOST acharonim hold it's mutar. Bringing 1 acharon is hardly proof of anything.
By rape I meant in case where the baby would be a mazer. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. Nevertheless, rape would normally qualify as צורך גדול.


Lol, really? Is that what the Tennessee law you were discussing was about? Rape would definitely be tzorech gadol but that doesn't mean it's mutar. Don't switch the discussion to mamzer unless you're conceding you were wrong by rape.
But it's not more comparable. That can be proven (tying somebody up to starve is חייב בדיני שמים, abortion according to some is not), but you refuse to believe in the Torah because you think you know better.


Not going to continue this point as I don't see the relevance, but I disagree.
The conversation was about the Tennessee legislature, not the moral values. I'm asking again, why should someone thinking something is murder give them authority to prevent a raped woman from aborting, and how would that be different than people who think slaughtering a cow is abhorrent preventing you from eating steak?

You keep on evading by attacking me and changing the question into why it should be allowed, but the natural state is that everything is allowed, you need justification to interfere in somebody's life and actions.

So why only by rape do you have this question. You original question was does anybody think that in a case of rape it should be illegal. That means you were conceding for the sake of argument that abortion can be illegal, just that in a case of rape it can't be. I assume the concession was because of murder, and if so, why should rape be any different?
A rape victim is monumentally different because it is much more reasonable to compel a woman to maintain a pregnancy that she entered willingly and has obligations towards than one she was violently forced into and was vehemently uninterested in to begin with. You're basically saying you don't understand the difference between forcing parents to feed their kids, and forcing a family to accept a foster care child and feed them.

Do you not agree?


I agree very much on the difference, I just don't see it's relevance if it's murder.
Yes I read it carefully, and I appreciate that you posted it, thank you. As far as I can tell, RMF is a minority opinion both in believing abortion is always assur and in believing the source of the issur is murder as opposed to בל תשחית. Do you know anybody else who holds like him?
Maharam shik Y"D 155.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 18, 2021, 04:33:10 PM
I didn't cancel them, they're not discussing abortion.
Except they are

What about the CH"Y?
He says it's muttar meikar hadin, go read it again.

In addition you not bringing other Acharonim is hardly proof they don't exist.
I brought multiple opinions that aboriton is muttar in cases of Tzorech Gadol, some limited it to Mamzer, some don't. That is a majority until you prove otherwise.

Lol, really? Is that what the Tennessee law you were discussing was about? Rape would definitely be tzorech gadol but that doesn't mean it's mutar. Don't switch the discussion to mamzer unless you're conceding you were wrong by rape.

Yes, the Tennessee law would ban abortions even in cases of mamzerim. If I misrepresented my position by stating 'rape' when I was referring primarliy to a narrower subset, consider me conceding it now. Let's see if you can do the same.

Not going to continue this point as I don't see the relevance, but I disagree.

That's the point. As @Baruch points you, your moral compass is being shaped by Christianity, and you're refusing to accept the Torah's view because you think you know better. It is very much the point and you should think long and hard about it.


So why only by rape do you have this question. You original question was does anybody think that in a case of rape it should be illegal. That means you were conceding for the sake of argument that abortion can be illegal, just that in a case of rape it can't be. I assume the concession was because of murder, and if so, why should rape be any different? I agree very much on the difference, I just don't see it's relevance if it's murder.
I explained myself very clearly, do you not have an answer? Why should somebody calling something 'murder' make any difference as to what they can force other people to do or not? That assumption was unfounded.

.Maharam shik Y"D 155.
He doesn't conclude one way or the other. Is that the best you have? Here's a link (https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1495&st=&pgnum=980=) to that Teshuva.

P.s. I'm not trying to denigrate you, I genuinely think you're falling into the trap of trying to make the Torah fit into your preconceived feelings, which I suspect are coming from Right wing politics/Christianity, when you should be calibrating your opinion according to the Torah. The Torah is the compass.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: chinagel on February 20, 2021, 10:26:21 PM
Except they are

But they don't say that it's muttar.
He says it's muttar meikar hadin, go read it again.
Link?
I brought multiple opinions that aboriton is muttar in cases of Tzorech Gadol, some limited it to Mamzer, some don't. That is a majority until you prove otherwise.
Yes, the Tennessee law would ban abortions even in cases of mamzerim. If I misrepresented my position by stating 'rape' when I was referring primarliy to a narrower subset, consider me conceding it now. Let's see if you can do the same.
If you're discussing mamzer, then you have a Yaavetz to add to the mutar side. But you said rape. We can start a different discussion limited to mamzer. But I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I just wanted to see your source that most poskim hold it's mutar.
In addition, the TN law is primarily for goyim, which according to all opinions is shefichas damim. No reason why that should be different in a case of rape. (P. S. I have zero clue about the TN law, I'm just basing off your posts.)
That's the point. As @Baruch points you, your moral compass is being shaped by Christianity, and you're refusing to accept the Torah's view because you think you know better. It is very much the point and you should think long and hard about it.


P.s. I'm not trying to denigrate you, I genuinely think you're falling into the trap of trying to make the Torah fit into your preconceived feelings, which I suspect are coming from Right wing politics/Christianity, when you should be calibrating your opinion according to the Torah. The Torah is the compass.
Maybe for others. I don't follow politics or listen to talk shows.
In addition, the Torah clearly says a Goy aborting is shfichas dam and a chiyuv misah.

I explained myself very clearly, do you not have an answer? Why should somebody calling something 'murder' make any difference as to what they can force other people to do or not? That assumption was unfounded.

It makes a difference when it's a logical position. Calling it murder doesn't mean it's the same as shooting a person point blank, but it's bad enough. We can all agree tying a person up till he starves should be illegal. What you call it, is mainly semantics.
He doesn't conclude one way or the other. Is that the best you have? Here's a link (https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1495&st=&pgnum=980=) to that Teshuva.
I wasn't saying his opinion that it's assur, just that he's concurring with R' Moshe that the source of issur is shfichas damim, not hashchosas zera.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 02, 2021, 08:20:06 AM
https://apnews.com/article/dr-seuss-books-racist-images-d8ed18335c03319d72f443594c174513
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on March 02, 2021, 08:36:03 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/business/mr-potato-head-hasbro-gender-neutral/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/media/fox-news-potato-head/index.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 02, 2021, 09:35:20 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/business/mr-potato-head-hasbro-gender-neutral/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/media/fox-news-potato-head/index.html
Ugh... the 'rebranding' is dumb, and the controversy is even dumber.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 11:29:29 AM
Ugh... the 'rebranding' is dumb, and the controversy is even dumber.
The controversy is downright silly and the rebranding is simply marketing. At one point they had separate products of Mr. Potato Head and Mrs. Potato Head which basically had different gender oriented attachments. Eventually they combined them into one product of Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head with both sets of attachments included. This probably went back and forth a bunch of times over time. Now they simply made this neutral and are vying for attention as part of the rebrand. Nothing to see here.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 12:14:18 PM
Meanwhile,

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: jj1000 on March 02, 2021, 03:22:17 PM
Meanwhile,

At the same time

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on March 02, 2021, 03:23:29 PM
https://nypost.com/2021/03/02/biden-removes-mention-of-dr-seuss-from-read-across-america-day/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 03:30:35 PM
At the same time

I have mixed feelings about the Dr Suess books. How would we feel if it had the "stereotypical Jew" depicted with the hook nose and all? I don't see anything wrong with discontinuing to publish books that contain images that are currently viewed as insensitive but don't see these as a reason to avoid other books of his. At the time, they were not considered insensitive. I do think that describing the images a racist is somewhat overboard. His intent was to depict an exotic ethnicity in their ethnic dress, which I don't see a real issue with. Removing mention of his other books is simply silly and would be the same for known anti-semitic authors such as Mark Twain and Roald Dahl.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on March 02, 2021, 03:31:38 PM
I have mixed feelings about the Dr Suess books. How would we feel if it had the "stereotypical Jew" depicted with the hook nose and all? I don't see anything wrong with discontinuing to publish books that contain images that are currently viewed as insensitive but don't see these as a reason to avoid other books of his. At the time, they were not considered insensitive. I do think that describing the images a racist is somewhat overboard. His intent was to depict an exotic ethnicity in their ethnic dress, which I don't see a real issue with. Removing mention of his other books is simply silly and would be the same for known anti-semitic authors such as Mark Twain and Roald Dahl.
Ever watched family guy? It has stereotypical jews. I don't mind.

Quite surprised it wasn't canceled.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dawie on March 02, 2021, 03:32:59 PM
Tintin comics and Noddy cartoons come  to mind as very cringy in this woke world
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 03:33:22 PM
Ever watched family guy? It has stereotypical jews. I don't mind.

Quite surprised it wasn't canceled.
I have no idea what that is or what you are referring to, but such a drawing by Dr. Seuss would more likely look more like the anti-semitic caricatures.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 03:34:04 PM
Tintin comics and Noddy cartoons come  to mind as very cringy in this woke world
There are some TinTin books that are out of print due to the depiction of Africans.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 02, 2021, 03:34:53 PM


... for known anti-semitic authors such as Mark Twain and Roald Dahl.
Huh? Mark Twain was a known antisemite?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 03:39:03 PM
Huh? Mark Twain was a known antisemite?
http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html (http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html)

But it does seem more complicated and that it changed as he grew older.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 02, 2021, 05:49:35 PM
Huh? Mark Twain was a known antisemite?
http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html (http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html)

But it does seem more complicated and that it changed as he grew older.

I cannot give insight into Twain's thinking when he was young, but this essay, written in his later years, is fascinating, and I think every Jew should read it. I attached it to the following post, so you can click on it to go back there and download the document with the essay.


Attached is the essay "Concerning the Jews," written by Mark Twain and published in Harper's Magazine in 1899. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerning_the_Jews

It is always a fascinating read, but it is especially poignant with the rise of Antisemitism recently. The closing paragraphs are often quoted, but the entire essay is fascinating.

I created a word document that is easily printable as a booklet, with 2 pages per sheet.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 06:20:35 PM
I cannot give insight into Twain's thinking when he was young, but this essay, written in his later years, is fascinating, and I think every Jew should read it. I attached it to the following post, so you can click on it to go back there and download the document with the essay.


I just want to point out that a good portion of that essay is basically saying that Jews are shrewd and dishonest money-hungry parasites, all this while purportedly complimenting them.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 02, 2021, 06:28:28 PM
I just want to point out that a good portion of that essay is basically saying that Jews are shrewd and dishonest money-hungry parasites, all this while purportedly complimenting them.
That is far from the sentiment I picked up when I read it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 06:43:07 PM
That is far from the sentiment I picked up when I read it.
What does he come out about "why Jews are hated"?
 @Yehuda57
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 02, 2021, 07:02:36 PM
http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html (http://www.twainweb.net/filelist/jews.html)

But it does seem more complicated and that it changed as he grew older.
Yeah, that's not gonna cut it for the title 'known anti-semitic author'.

ETA: For context on what I mean, these are 'known anti semitic authors'. Wikipedia is not the be all end all, but if their Wiki page doesn't even mention it, they're probably not 'known' as anti-semitic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roald_Dahl#Antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot#Antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound#Antisemitism,_social_credit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Ferdinand_C%C3%A9line#Antisemitism,_fascism_and_collaboration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsley_Amis#Anti-Semitism
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 02, 2021, 07:19:53 PM
What does he come out about "why Jews are hated"?
 @Yehuda57
IIRC, because they are a threat to the existence of everyone else, because nobody could compete with them.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on March 02, 2021, 07:29:37 PM
He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality? Mark Twain
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on March 02, 2021, 07:30:52 PM
At the same time


(https://i.postimg.cc/ryG2rqyt/C6-BD77-DF-59-C6-4066-9-DE2-EC31-EA83-C8-FC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K4YWXSMZ)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 07:43:03 PM
Yeah, that's not gonna cut it for the title 'known anti-semitic author'.

ETA: For context on what I mean, these are 'known anti semitic authors'. Wikipedia is not the be all end all, but if their Wiki page doesn't even mention it, they're probably not 'known' as anti-semitic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roald_Dahl#Antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot#Antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound#Antisemitism,_social_credit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Ferdinand_C%C3%A9line#Antisemitism,_fascism_and_collaboration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsley_Amis#Anti-Semitism
Okay, he is a bad example.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 02, 2021, 07:43:44 PM
IIRC, because they are a threat to the existence of everyone else, because nobody could compete with them.
Yup they are just so shrewd. They also don't contribute to society.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 02, 2021, 09:47:07 PM
He has made a marvellous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality? Mark Twain
That is an excerpt from the aforementioned essay.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 02, 2021, 09:47:35 PM
Yup they are just so shrewd. They also don't contribute to society.
That's not what he says.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 03, 2021, 01:29:30 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 03, 2021, 07:59:41 AM
It's ironic. I think canceling Dr. Seuss will most adversely effect the Black community, as his books can be a great first experience in the world of rap, something Black artists thrive in.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on March 03, 2021, 12:35:29 PM
Lol, the internet's memory is amazing.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 03, 2021, 01:39:43 PM
Lol, the internet's memory is amazing.

This association by right wing media of Biden and Harris personally with 'cancellations' they have nothing to do with is so silly. Hasbro made their own business decisions and NEA/Dr Seuss Enterprises made theirs.  Of course left wing media did it to Trump plenty (and still does), but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 03, 2021, 01:55:40 PM
This association by right wing media of Biden and Harris personally with 'cancellations' they have nothing to do with is so silly. Hasbro made their own business decisions and NEA/Dr Seuss Enterprises made theirs.  Of course left wing media did it to Trump plenty (and still does), but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical.

"Let the free market sort it out"

"Hey free market, stop canceling!"
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on March 03, 2021, 02:05:56 PM
This association by right wing media of Biden and Harris personally with 'cancellations' they have nothing to do with is so silly. Hasbro made their own business decisions and NEA/Dr Seuss Enterprises made theirs.  Of course left wing media did it to Trump plenty (and still does), but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical.

Didn't Biden exclude mention of Dr. Seuss from the Reading Day Proclamation which is on his birthday (in contrast to both Trump and Obama)?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 03, 2021, 02:53:47 PM
"Let the free market sort it out"

"Hey free market, stop canceling!"
More like "Hey [insert name of politician I don't like], stop cancelling!"
Didn't Biden exclude mention of Dr. Seuss from the Reading Day Proclamation which is on his birthday (in contrast to both Trump and Obama)?
Don't be lazy. Read Across America Day is an NEA initiative. The NEA had a contract with Dr Seuss Enterprises partnering for Read Across America Day, which has since expired. The proclamation was drafted by the Dept of Ed, likely in conjunction with the NEA - so it's not surprising that they left out Dr Seuss. All of which is to say that Dr Seuss was not mentioned in this year's proclamation, and that does not equate to Biden cancelling Dr Seuss in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ver hut gazugt on March 03, 2021, 03:06:44 PM
"Let the free market sort it out"

"Hey free market, stop canceling!"


Part of the free market is the ability to call people out when you think they are doing something wrong.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2021, 03:29:00 PM

Part of the free market is the ability to call people out when you think they are doing something wrong.
Nope that is free speech. Nothing to do with markets.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2021, 03:30:04 PM
More like "Hey [insert name of politician I don't like], stop cancelling!"Don't be lazy. Read Across America Day is an NEA initiative. The NEA had a contract with Dr Seuss Enterprises partnering for Read Across America Day, which has since expired. The proclamation was drafted by the Dept of Ed, likely in conjunction with the NEA - so it's not surprising that they left out Dr Seuss. All of which is to say that Dr Seuss was not mentioned in this year's proclamation, and that does not equate to Biden cancelling Dr Seuss in any way shape or form.
There is a claim going around (unverified by myself) that it was removed yesterday.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 03, 2021, 04:16:42 PM
There is a claim going around (unverified by myself) that it was removed yesterday.
You mean someone is claiming it was posted on 3/1 (the date listed on the proclamation) with reference to Dr Suess and then edited on 3/2 (the actual date of Read Across America day) to remove those references?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2021, 04:20:01 PM
You mean someone is claiming it was posted on 3/1 (the date listed on the proclamation) with reference to Dr Suess and then edited on 3/2 (the actual date of Read Across America day) to remove those references?
It was first posted on Mar 1? Maybe I misunderstood the claim. As I wrote, I did not vet the claim.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on March 03, 2021, 08:35:01 PM
More like "Hey [insert name of politician I don't like], stop cancelling!"Don't be lazy. Read Across America Day is an NEA initiative. The NEA had a contract with Dr Seuss Enterprises partnering for Read Across America Day, which has since expired. The proclamation was drafted by the Dept of Ed, likely in conjunction with the NEA - so it's not surprising that they left out Dr Seuss. All of which is to say that Dr Seuss was not mentioned in this year's proclamation, and that does not equate to Biden cancelling Dr Seuss in any way shape or form.

So Biden is not responsible for the content of a Proclamation he signed, because he just signed what his Department of Education told him to sign?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ver hut gazugt on March 03, 2021, 09:10:48 PM
Nope that is free speech. Nothing to do with markets.

How can you have a free market without free speech about the market?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 03, 2021, 09:16:19 PM
How can you have a free market without free speech about the market?
It's silly nitpicking but it's also wrong, a free market includes the freedom of market participants to speak about each other.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 03, 2021, 11:25:57 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evm5_ERXAAEVUc7?format=png&name=900x900)

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 03, 2021, 11:42:28 PM
So Biden is not responsible for the content of a Proclamation he signed, because he just signed what his Department of Education told him to sign?
Gimme a break - 'Biden is responsible for the proclamation he signed' does not mean 'Biden exclude[d] mention of Dr. Seuss' - and it certainly doesn't mean Biden canceled Dr Seuss. Not to mention the fact that it certainly doesn't mean Kamala Harris canceled Dr Seuss, which was the inference of the post I initially replied to. There is nothing objectionable about what he signed. The 'objection' is that what he signed left something out. Do you really think that they put it in front of Biden to sign, and he said "hold up, why is Dr Seuss not mentioned", and they explained that he's cancelled, and Biden said good call let's keep him out of it? This is such silliness, it's really sad to see it parroted here - there's plenty of real things to deal with.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 03, 2021, 11:44:29 PM
This is such silliness, it's really sad to see it parroted here - there's plenty of real things to deal with.

That what the GOP and Fox resort to when they have to avoid discussing a bill that 77% of Americans and 59% of Repbulicns support

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on March 04, 2021, 08:16:36 AM
That what the GOP and Fox resort to when they have to avoid discussing a bill that 77% of Americans and 59% of Repbulicns support

Its all fun and games until you or something you believe in gets canceled
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: jj1000 on March 04, 2021, 08:27:49 AM

Let Cruz know that was actually DD ;)

https://www.dansdeals.com/shopping-deals/amazon/dr-seusss-board-books-2-98-amazon/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 04, 2021, 09:18:45 AM
Let Cruz know that was actually DD ;)

https://www.dansdeals.com/shopping-deals/amazon/dr-seusss-board-books-2-98-amazon/
Lol - except for the part where there's only 1 book that's on both the top 10 and your post.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: jj1000 on March 04, 2021, 09:21:56 AM
Lol - except for the part where there's only 1 book that's on both the top 10 and your post.
Lol, true, didn't look that closely.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 04, 2021, 09:46:47 AM
Let Cruz know that was actually DD ;)

https://www.dansdeals.com/shopping-deals/amazon/your-favorite-13-dr-seuss-stories-book-for-10-99-from-amazon/
FTFY

Thanks to that deal, I now own three of the six canceled books.

Unfortunately, the book is not in great condition anymore, otherwise I would consider selling it for about $250, which is what it seems to be going for...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2021, 10:21:26 AM
FTFY

Thanks to that deal, I now own three of the six canceled books.

Unfortunately, the book is not in great condition anymore, otherwise I would consider selling it for about $250, which is what it seems to be going for...
If it doesn't get taken down by eBay as offensive material.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 04, 2021, 11:46:37 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 04, 2021, 12:38:14 PM
If it doesn't get taken down by eBay as offensive material.
AND...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9326645/Ebay-BANS-people-reselling-six-offensive-Dr-Seuss.html
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Ver hut gazugt on March 04, 2021, 01:38:27 PM
It's silly nitpicking but it's also wrong, a free market includes the freedom of market participants to speak about each other.

Not sure if I am understanding you correctly. You seem to be making my point and at the same time saying I am wrong.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 04, 2021, 01:59:49 PM

Not sure if I am understanding you correctly. You seem to be making my point and at the same time saying I am wrong.
I said the criticism of your post was wrong
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: theduke on March 04, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
AND...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9326645/Ebay-BANS-people-reselling-six-offensive-Dr-Seuss.html

FYI - Mein Kampf is very much still available to purchase on Ebay..

Glad they have their priorities straightened out.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on March 05, 2021, 08:31:27 AM
The Guardian posted an article saying that we need a global lockdown every 2 years to curb carbon emissions.
🙄
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 05, 2021, 10:19:20 AM
FYI - Mein Kampf is very much still available to purchase on Ebay..

Glad they have their priorities straightened out.
Fox News now stressing this point


(https://i.postimg.cc/63d8QxVJ/Screenshot-2021-03-05-101511.png) (https://postimg.cc/8Jzpy3nt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3w0yPvdw/Screenshot-2021-03-05-101542.png) (https://postimg.cc/kV9XSDNr)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2021, 11:35:36 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on March 09, 2021, 12:07:51 PM
So most people feel that normal excludes their hair? LOL.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: TimT on March 09, 2021, 10:31:23 PM
Peter Pan, Dumbo, The Aristocats
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/disney-pulls-dumbo-peter-pan-other-films-from-childrens-profiles-over-negative-depictions/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on March 09, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Peter Pan, Dumbo, The Aristocats
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/disney-pulls-dumbo-peter-pan-other-films-from-childrens-profiles-over-negative-depictions/
May as well cancel Disney too. Rabid anti-semite.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on March 09, 2021, 10:46:18 PM
May as well cancel Disney too. Rabid anti-semite.

When did cancel culture cancel anyone for antisemitism? That's so 1950s, it isn't in like with "contemporary social norms"...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on March 09, 2021, 10:47:58 PM
When did cancel culture cancel anyone for antisemitism? That's so 1950s, it isn't in like with "contemporary social norms"...
https://chicago.suntimes.com/movies-and-tv/2021/2/11/22277965/gina-carano-fired-mandalorian-star-wars-after-social-media-post-lucasfilm
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on March 09, 2021, 11:28:00 PM
Just a random thought- I feel like it's only a matter of time before TPG changes their name to something more gender-neutral to keep up with the wokeness. The name is incredibly un-2021.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Luvisrael on March 11, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
https://nypost.com/2021/03/10/nyc-school-encourages-kids-to-stop-using-words-mom-dad/amp/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on March 15, 2021, 07:35:19 PM
US Marines apologize to Tucker Carlson after Ted Cruz gets involved
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehudaa on March 19, 2021, 01:44:52 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanverdon/2021/03/18/time-for-mr-monopolys-get-woke-moment/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on March 19, 2021, 01:54:58 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanverdon/2021/03/18/time-for-mr-monopolys-get-woke-moment/
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xjMrB4Z/Goodbye-Second-Place-in-A-Beauty-Contest-Hello-Shopping-Local-Monopoly-Is-Finally-Updating-the-C.png) (https://postimg.cc/zyS0hwRP)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on March 19, 2021, 06:44:38 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xjMrB4Z/Goodbye-Second-Place-in-A-Beauty-Contest-Hello-Shopping-Local-Monopoly-Is-Finally-Updating-the-C.png) (https://postimg.cc/zyS0hwRP)

For a moment I thought this would be something @Randomex would post
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on March 20, 2021, 10:10:39 PM
For a moment I thought this would be something @Randomex would post

Leave the @ off next time, please (or is doing that considered impolite on DDF?).
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on March 20, 2021, 10:34:56 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xjMrB4Z/Goodbye-Second-Place-in-A-Beauty-Contest-Hello-Shopping-Local-Monopoly-Is-Finally-Updating-the-C.png) (https://postimg.cc/zyS0hwRP)
Maybe they should update Lakewoodopoly while theyre at it,
 but the truth is, Id be scared to see the 2021 version
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on March 20, 2021, 11:06:22 PM
Licensed versions of Monopoly are mostly made by USAopoly, which has a deal with Hasbro, not Hasbro themselves.
Lakewoodopoly was not made by them (copyright law in the US very rarely applies to game designs).
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on March 20, 2021, 11:47:59 PM
Licensed versions of Monopoly are mostly made by USAopoly, which has a deal with Hasbro, not Hasbro themselves.
Lakewoodopoly was not made by them (copyright law in the US very rarely applies to game designs).
Either way @YitzyS should bookmark it for next years Purim edition of the Yated
😜
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on March 23, 2021, 12:27:49 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on March 25, 2021, 04:27:43 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oakland-500-month-basic-income-residents/


Quote
Oakland's project is significant because it is one of the largest efforts in the U.S. so far, targeting up to 600 families. And it is the first program to limit participation strictly to Black, Indigenous and people of color communities.

The reason: White households in Oakland on average make about three times as much annually than black households, according to the Oakland Equity Index. It's also a nod to the legacy of the Black Panther Party, the political movement that was founded in Oakland in the 1960s.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on March 25, 2021, 08:39:12 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oakland-500-month-basic-income-residents/
Quote
The mayor of Oakland, California, on Tuesday announced a privately funded program
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 02, 2021, 10:23:38 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yesitsme on April 02, 2021, 10:34:05 AM
I identify as dark black
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dr Moose on April 02, 2021, 11:12:12 AM
Am I the only one who thinks it's an April Fools joke?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on April 02, 2021, 01:55:35 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's an April Fools joke?

Its April fools all year round, thats the problem here...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on April 02, 2021, 02:26:28 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's an April Fools joke?

Yes, you are.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Dan on April 02, 2021, 03:17:14 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHvyHYMX/30380197-D93-A-4-B5-D-9924-07-A427922-E49.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCdjdhV3)

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuds70 on April 02, 2021, 03:32:57 PM




מה קש?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on April 02, 2021, 03:38:00 PM

Has there been a noticeable drop in people following sports since it became so politicized?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on April 02, 2021, 04:08:05 PM

מה קש?
MLB announces it is moving the All-Star-Game out of Atlanta, Georgia. News comes after Biden said hed strongly support moving the MLB All Star Game out of Georgia due to the states passing of a voting bill.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on April 02, 2021, 04:09:32 PM
Has there been a noticeable drop in people following sports since it became so politicized?
Dont know the numbers. But seems to me that there has been.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuds70 on April 02, 2021, 04:16:59 PM
MLB announces it is moving the All-Star-Game out of Atlanta, Georgia. News comes after Biden said hed strongly support moving the MLB All Star Game out of Georgia due to the states passing of a voting bill.
מה קש
 = what's the connection of Baseball to the bill that was passed?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on April 02, 2021, 04:49:38 PM
Dont know the numbers. But seems to me that there has been.
That prob has a lot more to do with the lack of fans on the stadium, than for political reasons. I wonder if it will go back to regular when stadiums open to full capacity.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 04, 2021, 07:41:05 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyFmmU7WQAUp5_v?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on April 05, 2021, 02:12:40 AM

Does anyone think that canceling is never ok? Cancel culture is about canceling people/companies/things for absurd or unrelated reasons. Canceling a child molester = okay. Canceling a city hosting an all star game for an unrelated political reason = not okay. Canceling the idiotic cancel-ers = okay.

Not defending these specific people because they might be hypocrites, but lets not pretend theres anything hypocritical about canceling the MLB today.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 05, 2021, 04:47:35 PM

Canceling the idiotic cancel-ers = okay.

Not defending these specific people because they might be hypocrites, but lets not pretend theres anything hypocritical about canceling the MLB today.
So Delta, Coca Cola, and 200 other companies that released statements supporting voting rights are idiotic cancel-ers justly cancelled, its unthinkable to speak out against a state curtailing voter access and spearheading a national trend as a result of fictitious Big Lie, and nobody is hypercritical...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 05, 2021, 05:09:56 PM

Maybe just a tinge of hypocrisy?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 06, 2021, 06:16:26 AM

Definitely no hypocrisy
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 06, 2021, 03:34:10 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Jellybelly on April 06, 2021, 03:48:47 PM
Theyre not objecting to their right, theyre just saying the companies are making a dumb decision and people shouldnt support them
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 06, 2021, 04:05:17 PM
Theyre not objecting to their right, theyre just saying the companies are making a dumb decision and people shouldnt support them
Not true. They are talking about ending anti-trust exemption for MLB and fuel tax credits for DL. These would be laws changed over speech.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 06, 2021, 05:50:18 PM
Not true. They are talking about ending anti-trust exemption for MLB and fuel tax credits for DL. These would be laws changed over speech.

Then again, some of this seems to be coming from publicly fuded entities too.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 06, 2021, 06:18:56 PM
Theyre not objecting to their right, theyre just saying the companies are making a dumb decision and people shouldnt support them
Look at McConnell statement. Thats simply not what he said
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 06, 2021, 06:44:44 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on April 06, 2021, 07:30:13 PM

I cant see how the economy would survive this, it would make 2008 look good in comparison...
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on April 07, 2021, 12:16:13 AM
Cancel car lease returns too
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on April 07, 2021, 09:39:23 AM
This worked very well for Cuba.

Buildings (or parts of) collapsing daily.

That's actually deadly.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Essen est zich on April 08, 2021, 08:26:12 AM
Seen in Canada.
This is a dollar store.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/609d937f28515713bf54b58d19fb3558.jpg)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mordyk on April 08, 2021, 10:14:14 AM
we are now up to LGBTQI+  it seems like every half year something gets added on. how many more will they add? :o
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 10:23:20 AM
we are now up to LGBTQI+  it seems like every half year something gets added on. how many more will they add? :o
More like every half a year you notice one that was added. Its already LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual).
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Mordyk on April 08, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
More like every half a year you notice one that was added. Its already LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual).
*Insert monkey covering eyes emoji here*
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on April 08, 2021, 10:54:23 AM


Done
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on April 08, 2021, 10:59:41 AM
More like every half a year you notice one that was added. Its already LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual).

I think instead of vomiting an alphabet soup of letters for people who deserve special privileges, we should just adopt NASWM (not a straight white male)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 08, 2021, 11:25:14 AM
I think instead of vomiting an alphabet soup of letters for people who deserve special privileges, we should just adopt NASWM (not a straight white male)

The NASWM is up 100 points today in early trading.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 11:38:48 AM
I think instead of vomiting an alphabet soup of letters for people who deserve special privileges, we should just adopt NASWM (not a straight white male)
Would you consider serving in the military openly a 'special privilege'?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: EliJelly on April 08, 2021, 12:09:40 PM
I think instead of vomiting an alphabet soup of letters for people who deserve special privileges, we should just adopt NASWM (not a straight white male)
Vomiting causing indeed
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 08, 2021, 12:13:17 PM
Would you consider serving in the military openly a 'special privilege'?
Which one has to hide that they are in the military?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 01:18:55 PM
Which one has to hide that they are in the military?
Gays until Obama repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell and trans under Trump until Biden repealed it.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 08, 2021, 01:20:51 PM
Gays until Obama repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell and trans under Trump until Biden repealed it.
They didn't have to hide that they were in the military. They needed to hide certain behaviors.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: joe1234 on April 08, 2021, 01:23:00 PM
*Insert monkey in that list*
FTFY
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 01:33:17 PM
They didn't have to hide that they were in the military. They needed to hide certain behaviors.
Thats called not serving openly, which is what I said.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 08, 2021, 01:38:22 PM
Thats called not serving openly, which is what I said.
I was somewhat picking on your wording, but making a point. They absolutely can serve openly. They cannot serve while openly exhibiting some behaviors. There is no inherent privilege of exhibiting any behavior at all in the military. There are many behaviors one may need to hide while in the military.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: JlmBoi on April 08, 2021, 05:30:57 PM
Would you consider serving in the military openly a 'special privilege'?
Specifically regarding Trans and Questioning and all the other ones relating to gender dysphoria I don't think it's discriminatory that they can't serve. Just like diagnosed bi-polar or the like can't. It's not in anyone's good. I understand why people argue that varied sexual orientation is a normal thing. Normalizing gender dysphoria is beyond me.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 06:21:32 PM
Specifically regarding Trans and Questioning and all the other ones relating to gender dysphoria I don't think it's discriminatory that they can't serve. Just like diagnosed bi-polar or the like can't. It's not in anyone's good. I understand why people argue that varied sexual orientation is a normal thing. Normalizing gender dysphoria is beyond me.
Regardless of whether its fair or not, you cant call being treated equally a special privilege

I was somewhat picking on your wording, but making a point. They absolutely can serve openly. They cannot serve while openly exhibiting some behaviors. There is no inherent privilege of exhibiting any behavior at all in the military. There are many behaviors one may need to hide while in the military.
So lets phrase it differently. For LGBTs in the military to be able to have a public love life is equality, not special privilege.

The vast majority of LGBT rights arent giving them anything special
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: AsherO on April 08, 2021, 06:28:33 PM
The vast majority of LGBT rights arent giving them anything special

It grants them rights for a certain class of self-expression where they arent subject to standard military discipline. If a superior comments on anything they can cry discrimination.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 06:36:35 PM
It grants them rights for a certain class of self-expression where they arent subject to standard military discipline. If a superior comments on anything they can cry discrimination.
Example?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 08, 2021, 06:41:56 PM

Small government and liberty
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: JlmBoi on April 08, 2021, 06:47:54 PM
Regardless of whether its fair or not, you cant call being treated equally a special privilege
So lets phrase it differently. For LGBTs in the military to be able to have a public love life is equality, not special privilege.

The vast majority of LGBT rights arent giving them anything special
If a person is mentally ill (again, I'm referring to gender dysphoria not anything else) then it is definitely a 'special privilege' to be treated equally. The sad thing is that these people have been given (blame wheo you want) so much misplaced validation, validating their issue instead of them as people, that they expect equality. Noone with that level of mental illness would expect that.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on April 09, 2021, 12:36:21 AM
They didn't have to hide that they were in the military. They needed to hide certain behaviors.

The law was not that such-and-such behavior is forbidden, but that such individuals are forbidden to serve.

If a person is mentally ill (again, I'm referring to gender dysphoria not anything else) then it is
definitely a 'special privilege' to be treated equally. [...] No one with that level of mental illness [...]

Excluding people on the basis of mental illness should be according to how it affects their ability to execute their tasks.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on April 09, 2021, 01:16:18 AM
The law was not that such-and-such behavior is forbidden, but that such individuals are forbidden to serve.

Excluding people on the basis of mental illness should be according to how it affects their ability to execute their tasks.

Or perhaps its not a great idea to give assault rifles and authority to the mentally ill. If they wanna scrub toilets in the military thats fine with me.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on April 09, 2021, 01:40:52 AM
Excluding people on the basis of mental illness should be according to how it affects their ability to execute their tasks.
Or perhaps its not a great idea to give assault rifles and authority to the mentally ill. If they wanna scrub toilets in the military thats fine with me.

Try reading it again, I guess?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on April 09, 2021, 01:44:20 AM
Or perhaps its not a great idea to give assault rifles and authority to the mentally ill. If they wanna scrub toilets in the military thats fine with me.


Try reading it again, I guess?

I did and it doesnt help your cause. Someone with mental illness might be able to execute their task but they might execute others while theyre at it. Being capable doesnt mean they dont carry extra risk.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on April 09, 2021, 01:54:55 AM
"Mental illness" does not have one-size-fits-all implications for duty fitness.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: yuneeq on April 09, 2021, 02:15:32 AM
"Mental illness" does not have one-size-fits-all implications for duty fitness.

Were not talking about OCD or ADHD, were talking about gender dysphoria. I confidently believe that delusional people with extremely high rates of suicide should stay far away from the military. But you do you.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: JlmBoi on April 09, 2021, 03:13:03 AM
"Mental illness" does not have one-size-fits-all implications for duty fitness.
I actually agree with the principle, although I don't think it's on the military to try define these things. I  think you would agree that it's something that will vary alot case by case. I don't think it's the army's job to spend resources on developing and implementing metrics for that. Also, it's kind of impossible to do that kind of thing in today's climate.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 09, 2021, 08:49:36 AM


The law was not that such-and-such behavior is forbidden, but that such individuals are forbidden to serve.

If they behave that way openly.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on April 09, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
"The act prohibited any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing their sexual orientation or from speaking about
any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces.
The act specified that service members who disclose that they are homosexual or engage in homosexual conduct should
be separated (discharged)..." (Emphasis added)

Or in other words, you're not really allowed to be here, but if we can claim we don't know, we won't kick you out.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 11, 2021, 10:53:33 AM
"The act prohibited any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing their sexual orientation or from speaking about
any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces.
The act specified that service members who disclose that they are homosexual or engage in homosexual conduct should
be separated (discharged)..." (Emphasis added)

Or in other words, you're not really allowed to be here, but if we can claim we don't know, we won't kick you out.
Disclosing is a behavior. It means that I don't care what you do behind closed doors is irrelevant to me, but once people know about it that it causes problems. That may or may not be real problem, but makes sense in theory.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: Randomex on April 11, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
"Disclosing is a behavior" is not an argument I feel a need to respond to.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 11, 2021, 06:07:39 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 12, 2021, 05:01:32 AM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 27, 2021, 12:39:32 PM
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: stooges44 on April 28, 2021, 11:37:20 AM
https://pix11.com/news/ceo-fired-after-publicly-ridiculing-teen-over-his-prom-dress/
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on April 28, 2021, 12:17:27 PM
https://pix11.com/news/ceo-fired-after-publicly-ridiculing-teen-over-his-prom-dress/
Yeah that CEO went too far.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on April 28, 2021, 05:05:53 PM
Yeah that CEO went too far.

Ye, he's an idiot, but do we know what happened before the video started? All I see in the video is the videographer saying insults and him agreeing.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 02, 2021, 07:38:57 AM

'Freedom'
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on May 02, 2021, 04:14:09 PM

'Freedom'
This is insane.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: JlmBoi on May 02, 2021, 05:30:10 PM

'Freedom'
That's a real shame. Somwhere needs to proudly do this the right way.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on May 02, 2021, 07:08:00 PM

'Freedom'
Again, it is the horseshoe theory in full force.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 02, 2021, 07:28:47 PM
Again, it is the horseshoe theory in full force.
So liberalism is as much a mental disorder as conservatism is?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: YitzyS on May 02, 2021, 07:52:44 PM
Kool Aid...     Kool Aid...

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2y0r4Jt/Screenshot-2021-05-02-195037.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: aygart on May 02, 2021, 08:37:43 PM
So liberalism is as much a mental disorder as conservatism is?
Of course. Anytime someone takes a partisan side or serves no purpose other than to distort the truth.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on May 02, 2021, 11:04:02 PM

*up to $5,000

Anyone have the bill language so that we can see what has to happen for the fine to be so high?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on May 03, 2021, 12:04:59 AM
*up to $5,000

Anyone have the bill language so that we can see what has to happen for the fine to be so high?
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/2006/?Tab=BillText

381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.
1122 (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include
1123 any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or
1124 customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19
1125 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry
1126 upon, or service from the business operations in this state.
1127 This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from
1128 instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or
1129 controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.
1130 (2) A governmental entity as defined in s. 768.38 may not
1131 require persons to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19
1132 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry
1133 upon, or service from the governmental entitys operations in
1134 this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict
1135 governmental entities from instituting screening protocols
1136 consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued
1137 guidance to protect public health.
1138 (3) An educational institution as defined in s. 768.38 may
1139 not require students or residents to provide any documentation
1140 certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery for
1141 attendance or enrollment, or to gain access to, entry upon, or
1142 service from such educational institution in this state. This
1143 subsection does not otherwise restrict educational institutions
1144 from instituting screening protocols consistent with
1145 authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to
1146 protect public health.
1147 (4) The department may impose a fine not to exceed $5,000
1148 per violation.
1149 (5) This section does not apply to a health care provider
1150 as defined in s. 768.38; a service provider licensed or
1151 certified under s. 393.17, part III of chapter 401, or part IV
1152 of chapter 468; or a provider with an active health care clinic
1153 exemption under s. 400.9935.

Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: grodnoking on May 03, 2021, 12:08:33 AM

And it seems this was stricken in its entirety from the bill before it landed on the governors desk.
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on May 03, 2021, 01:41:25 PM
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/2006/?Tab=BillText

 not to exceed $5,000

As I said. Anyone know if there are other such laws (that limit the fine to $5000), and if so how much the fine is in those case?
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: S209 on May 03, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
As I said. Anyone know if there are other such laws (that limit the fine to $5000), and if so how much the fine is in those case?
A Class B or C misdemeanor not resulting in death or an infraction.

Source (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3571)

So a business entity which requires proof of vaccination or antibodies is to be treated by the State as if they are committing a misdemeanor and shall be fined up to $5,000. Instead of a list of questions, do you think you could provide an answer as to how on earth this isnt completely insane (aside from almost certainly being unconstitutional and definitely immoral)?

Reminds me of the right of bakeries to bake certain cakes..
Title: Re: Are we going too far?
Post by: zh cohen on May 03, 2021, 04:43:22 PM
Do you think you could provide an answer as to how on earth this isnt completely insane (aside from almost certainly being unconstitutional and definitely immoral)?

Sure. I think that conservatives are struggling with the realization that big business is just as much a threat to freedom as big government is. It will take some thought and debate to properly calibrate the reaction, and this is an example of going to far.