DansDeals.com Forums

DansDeals Forum => Destination Guides And Trip Planning => Topic started by: mimb on January 23, 2020, 01:49:54 PM

Title: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: mimb on January 23, 2020, 01:49:54 PM
prelim itin:
sunday- arrive relax
monday- relax, drive around west coast
tuesday- leave for RTH, stay overnight in Hana
wednesday- do backend hana stuff like bamboo forest
thursday- relax, (whale watch again? snorkeling?), Haleakala for sunset
friday- head to HNL
thoughts?

Don't know if you hold by various Shabbat opinions
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: shaulyaakov on January 23, 2020, 02:26:02 PM
Don't know if you don't by various Shabbat opinions
If OP is flying on Friday, I assume he's not doing 2 days of shabbos.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: ushdadude on January 23, 2020, 02:58:30 PM
If OP is flying on Friday, I assume he's not doing 2 days of shabbos.
correct
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: sam28 on January 24, 2020, 11:25:35 AM
if I can only be there from Sunday till Thursday since my ruv wont let me be there for shabbes should I still go or its to lees ?
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: shaulyaakov on January 24, 2020, 11:26:22 AM
if I can only be there from Sunday till Thursday since my ruv wont let me be there for shabbes should I still go or its to lees ?
Spend shabbos in LA and you're fine.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Mootkim on January 28, 2020, 11:32:59 PM

that was my original plan but @Something Fishy said it's not a good idea. will still feel rushed.
I disagree. Most of the things to do are on the way to Hana on the northern part. Additionally there is what to do the second day in Hana and slightly past Hana on the way to the south. After that, it is mainly just long stretches of highway and scenery but should have plenty of time to not feel rushed and still make it to Haleakala for sunset.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: User6669 on January 29, 2020, 02:28:48 AM
if I can only be there from Sunday till Thursday since my ruv wont let me be there for shabbes should I still go or its to lees ?
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.
Saying don't go is another way of saying I don't know the answer, and/or don't want/not capable to research the subject...

I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

Find a Ruv that you respect and is familiar to the matter, and ask for his opinion, and if he says to do 2 days, it's not that bad at all, as a matter of fact I think it's really unique and enjoyable.

Bottom line, whatever you end up doing, Maui is a stuuuning place, so just make sure to enjoy all the time you get.

I just had to get this off my chest...
#sighofrelief :)
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: shaulyaakov on January 29, 2020, 05:53:09 AM
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.
Saying don't go is another way of saying I don't know the answer, and/or don't want/not capable to research the subject...

I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

Find a Ruv that you respect and is familiar to the matter, and ask for his opinion, and if he says to do 2 days, it's not that bad at all, as a matter of fact I think it's really unique and enjoyable.

Bottom line, whatever you end up doing, Maui is a stuuuning place, so just make sure to enjoy all the time you get.

I just had to get this off my chest...
#sighofrelief :)
What about tefillin? If it's shabbos, then they are muktzeh, if it's Chol, then it's a bitul aseih to not. Same thing with nussach Tefillah, Kiddush, havdella.

I'm not saying the issue is insurmountable (see Safek over Yom Tov sheni for a Ben Chutz LaAeretz in Israel or vice virsa) but it's not so obvious that 2 full days of shabbos is always the most machmir.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 29, 2020, 07:27:18 AM
What about tefillin? If it's shabbos, then they are muktzeh, if it's Chol, then it's a bitul aseih to not. Same thing with nussach Tefillah, Kiddush, havdella.

I'm not saying the issue is insurmountable (see Safek over Yom Tov sheni for a Ben Chutz LaAeretz in Israel or vice virsa) but it's not so obvious that 2 full days of shabbos is always the most machmir.
+1.
I know people that won't go to EY for Shalosh Regalim because of the safek...
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: shaulyaakov on January 29, 2020, 08:05:32 AM
+1.
I know people that won't go to EY for Shalosh Regalim because of the safek...
Not going to Israel already seems to go against Rishonim who talk about it.

But Hawaii certainly is more complicated especially when it's purely vacation.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 29, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
Not going to Israel already seems to go against Rishonim who talk about it.

But Hawaii certainly is more complicated especially when it's purely vacation.
The former is a big machlokes among chabad poskim. The latter isn't.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: mimb on January 29, 2020, 09:27:37 AM
What about tefillin? If it's shabbos, then they are muktzeh, if it's Chol, then it's a bitul aseih to not. Same thing with nussach Tefillah, Kiddush, havdella.

I'm not saying the issue is insurmountable (see Safek over Yom Tov sheni for a Ben Chutz LaAeretz in Israel or vice virsa) but it's not so obvious that 2 full days of shabbos is always the most machmir.

My rav told me to keep 2 days when I went, which we did and it was actually really nice. I believe he said we should do avoid any Deoraita melacha on the 'fake' shabbat day and then keep the regular day as we normally would.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Something Fishy on January 29, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
What about tefillin? If it's shabbos, then they are muktzeh, if it's Chol, then it's a bitul aseih to not. Same thing with nussach Tefillah, Kiddush, havdella.

I'm not saying the issue is insurmountable (see Safek over Yom Tov sheni for a Ben Chutz LaAeretz in Israel or vice virsa) but it's not so obvious that 2 full days of shabbos is always the most machmir.

I've discussed these questions in the past here (Kauai thread maybe?). Everything has a clear answer - but one should always do as their LOR says. A LOR who doesn't know the answer will hopefully say so and/or ask someone who does.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Mootkim on January 29, 2020, 11:04:50 AM
What about tefillin? If it's shabbos, then they are muktzeh, if it's Chol, then it's a bitul aseih to not. Same thing with nussach Tefillah, Kiddush, havdella.

I'm not saying the issue is insurmountable (see Safek over Yom Tov sheni for a Ben Chutz LaAeretz in Israel or vice virsa) but it's not so obvious that 2 full days of shabbos is always the most machmir.
What many LOR's will say is that Friday is just for d'oraisos which means that you can go swimming and do muktzah (tefillin) etc. which are only Rabbinic issues.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: mochjas on January 29, 2020, 01:12:44 PM
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.
Saying don't go is another way of saying I don't know the answer, and/or don't want/not capable to research the subject...

I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

Find a Ruv that you respect and is familiar to the matter, and ask for his opinion, and if he says to do 2 days, it's not that bad at all, as a matter of fact I think it's really unique and enjoyable.

Bottom line, whatever you end up doing, Maui is a stuuuning place, so just make sure to enjoy all the time you get.

I just had to get this off my chest...
#sighofrelief :)
He probably meant he didnt want to keep 2 days. Not that his Rav doesnt let him go at all......
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: sam28 on January 29, 2020, 01:13:32 PM
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.
Saying don't go is another way of saying I don't know the answer, and/or don't want/not capable to research the subject...

I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

Find a Ruv that you respect and is familiar to the matter, and ask for his opinion, and if he says to do 2 days, it's not that bad at all, as a matter of fact I think it's really unique and enjoyable.

Bottom line, whatever you end up doing, Maui is a stuuuning place, so just make sure to enjoy all the time you get.

I just had to get this off my chest...
#sighofrelief :)


I spoke to someone who knows good this stuff and he said if you only going for vacation why do wont to put yourself in to it . so the best is avoid being there for shabbes .
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: sam28 on January 29, 2020, 01:14:42 PM
He probably meant he didnt want to keep 2 days. Not that his Rav doesnt let him go at all......

and I have no problem keeping 2 days and staying there longer I wish I can
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: mochjas on January 29, 2020, 01:15:39 PM
and I have no problem keeping 2 days and staying there longer I wish I can
my bad, but Sun- Thursday is more than enough
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: yoohoo on January 29, 2020, 11:07:42 PM
Rabbi Taplin of Lakewood

http://www.datelineinhalacha.com/

http://www.datelineinhalacha.com/dateline_in_halacha.html

Do a page search for Hawaii

Very interesting.


I spoke to him before my trip and he convinced me to avoid staying for Shabbos.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: nirc on June 16, 2020, 08:30:08 AM
I've discussed these questions in the past here (Kauai thread maybe?). Everything has a clear answer - but one should always do as their LOR says. A LOR who doesn't know the answer will hopefully say so and/or ask someone who does.

Sadly, this is not always the case. I learned this the hard way.
Just like many Doctors won't admit they don't know something (in their field) and refer to you to someone else, so do Rabbanim.
It is very easy to take the "machmir" approach.
As I once heard many years ago it doesn't take a "big lamden" to be machmir, rather the opposite.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: 12HRS on June 16, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.


I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

My Rov spoke with R' Eliyashav on this topic and his attitude was

I spoke to someone who knows good this stuff and he said if you only going for vacation why do wont to put yourself in to it . so the best is avoid being there for shabbes .

Hope he wasn't clueless
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2020, 01:55:37 PM
I spoke to someone who knows good this stuff and he said if you only going for vacation why do wont to put yourself in to it . so the best is avoid being there for shabbes .
Several Rabonim gave me the same answer about Antarctica and Shabbos.

Others pushed back and argued that we need real answers and a psak halacha. These are questions that existed in the past in Northern Russia and questions that will exist in a future where we travel into space. Saying don't go is taking the easy way out.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: ushdadude on June 16, 2020, 02:10:39 PM
Several Rabonim gave me the same answer about Antarctica and Shabbos.

Others pushed back and argued that we need real answers and a psak halacha. These are questions that existed in the past in Northern Russia and questions that will exist in a future where we travel into space. Saying don't go is taking the easy way out.


you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Mikes@Micro on June 16, 2020, 02:29:40 PM

you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Ilan Ramon kept shabbos based on where he took off as per psak from Chabad rabbi near his training center who he was in touch with.

There will prob be more /less mehadrin options
יש כאן מקום להחמיר
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2020, 02:41:25 PM
Ilan Ramon kept shabbos based on where he took off as per psak from Chabad rabbi near his training center who he was in touch with.

There will prob be more /less mehadrin options
יש כאן מקום להחמיר
Likely based on the same questions as Antarctica:

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/trip-notes-antarctica-part-1-buenos-airesplanning-positioning-adventure-lifetime/
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2020, 02:42:19 PM

you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Done. And I hope the ask the question myself one day.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: JuryDuty on June 16, 2020, 02:51:48 PM
What many LOR's will say is that Friday is just for d'oraisos which means that you can go swimming and do muktzah

This is the answer I got. I haven't been to Hawaii yet, but if you go through what you actually are allowed to do, it sounds like an amazing vacation day
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Traveler718 on June 16, 2020, 03:04:35 PM
My Rav was supportive of me going to Antarctica and meticulously answered all my zman-related questions, but has been very discouraging about going to Hawaii, even unhappy with the option of keeping 2 days l'chumra.
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2020, 03:16:25 PM
My Rav was supportive of me going to Antarctica and meticulously answered all my zman-related questions, but has been very discouraging about going to Hawaii, even unhappy with the option of keeping 2 days l'chumra.
Not sure why there would be a difference?
I'd think that Antarctica would be more problematic, had our trip not had the Falklands detour.
Title: Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
Post by: Joel on June 16, 2020, 03:36:18 PM
Just like many Doctors won't admit they don't know something (in their field) and refer to you to someone else, so do Rabbanim.
It is very easy to take the "machmir" approach.
As I once heard many years ago it doesn't take a "big lamden" to be machmir, rather the opposite.
Knowing this I knew i had to ask someone who is well versed in (specialty) not every day question.
 
And indeed this was his answer told me not to drive and be machmir on d'oraisos
What many LOR's will say is that Friday is just for d'oraisos which means that you can go swimming and do muktzah (tefillin) etc. which are only Rabbinic issues.
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Something Fishy on June 16, 2020, 03:50:37 PM
Some relevant posts:

We keep de'oraisas on Friday, so that means that by shkia on Thursday we have to be settled in wherever we will be for shabbos.

Just Friday night/shabbos. But I was told to light candles on Thursday without a Bracha.

Ah, understood. Forgot about the 2 day Shabbos option, hehe. Can I ask what your Rav said to do for Tefillin for the men on Friday?

To address your tefillin question, he told me to wear it and daven like a regular weekday.

Shabbos candles was a more interesting issue - you can't light them on Friday afternoon, but at the same time you must light them for Shabbos! So he told me to light yartzeit candles on Thursday afternoon, and "Lekovod Shabbos Kodesh" over them. Then on Friday afternoon, my wife should cover her eyes and make the beracha. This way, no matter when Shabbos really was, we'd be covered :D.

I’ve done it twice already. Of course it raises some issues, but I got my psak from one of the most well-known and respected dayanim alive today (I don’t know if it’s a good idea to post his name here; feel free to PM if you want to know).
 
Here’s what he said (obviously for informational purposes only; everyone should ask their own LOR):
 
- Keep Shabbos on Saturday, plus keep d’oreisas on Friday (meaning from sundown Thursday). (This is also paskened in Shevet HaLevy as well as other sources)
- D’rabonons could be done, but only if there’s a “need” – not just for the heck of it (for example amira l’akum is fine, but touching muktza just because is not).
- Light >25-hour yartzeit candles at the zman on Thursday without a brocha, but say “l’kovod Shabbos kodesh” on them.
- By the zman Friday cover your eyes and then make the regular brocha on the candles.
- Tefillin, davening, bentching, Kiddush, havdala, etc. should all be done as on a normal Friday and Shabbos.
 
Based on this here are some more data points, all discussed and confirmed with a different (read: easier to access) dayan:
 
- Carrying on the grounds/yard on Friday is allowed, since it’s considered a karmelis.
- Amira l’akum is allowed.
- Dry food (chicken, kugel) could be put onto a blech or hotplate Friday afternoon, as long as the flame or hot plate was already on (either since Thursday or on a timer).
- Wet foods (soup) should be put up Thursday afternoon only.
 
   
Very highly recommended. Both times the long Shabbos was one of the top highlights of our trips. After a week of running around all day seeing and doing amazing things being forced to relax and do nothing for two days is absolute heaven. Take long walks (and even longer naps), read under trees dripping avocados, just let yourself melt into the Hawaiian air.
Finding the right place to stay over Shabbos is vital; a small hotel room isn’t a very good place to klutz around in for two days. This is where a great vacation rental really shines – look hard enough and you could find amazing gems at amazing prices.
I think in your case this would be a great itinerary – run around all week, do some hardcore relaxing for two days, than have a jam-packed Sunday (Road to Hana, BI volcano, Kauai north shore… you get the drift).
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: Something Fishy on June 16, 2020, 03:52:26 PM
And from a recent PM discussion I had with a DDFer, whose LOR was a bit at sea:

Quote
It's critical to talk to someone who knows the subject intimately, it's all too easy just to say "no".

Tell him to check  שבט הלוי ח"ג סי' כ"ח וח"ו סי' ל"ד, where he paskens to keep d'oreisas on the safek day, which is Friday in Hawaii.

There's also a good discussion in שו"ת נשמת שבת ח"ז סימן תקכ"ז - same psak. See also the simanim a bit before and after, he discusses all these shailos at length.
Title: Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
Post by: sam28 on June 16, 2020, 05:47:29 PM
And from a recent PM discussion I had with a DDFer, whose LOR was a bit at sea:


when i made plans to go . i called him and he said if u dont have to go u should try to avoid it .There's also a good discussion in שו"ת נשמת שבת ח"ז סימן תקכ"ז - same psak