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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 Discussion Board => Topic started by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 10:35:03 AM

Title: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/366014.html

Israeli media is reporting a growing sentiment by Israeli Charedim to avoid Corona tests, since the government places local lockdowns where many infections are detected.

As of right now, Yeshiva בית מתתיהו has over 80 positive cases, including the Rosh Yeshiva, who allegedly instructed Bochurim not to get tests so the Yeshiva can remain open. Yeshiva עטרת שלמה has at least 12 positive cases. The Belzer Rov forbids his chassidim from wearing masks.

The vast majority of Israeli Rabbis are vehemently encouraging everybody to follow governments guidelines as a minimum, even answering the phone on shabbos to get Corona test results.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: shapsam on July 03, 2020, 10:38:05 AM
https://www.kikar.co.il/366014.html

Israeli media is reporting a growing sentiment by Israeli Charedim to avoid Corona tests, since the government places local lockdowns where many infections are detected.

As of right now, Yeshiva בית מתתיהו has over 80 positive cases, including the Rosh Yeshiva, who allegedly instructed Bochurim not to get tests so the Yeshiva can remain open. Yeshiva עטרת שלמה has at least 12 positive cases. The Belzer Rov forbids his chassidim from wearing masks.

The vast majority of Israeli Rabbis are vehemently encouraging everybody to follow governments guidelines as a minimum, even answering the phone on shabbos to get Corona test results.
Why can't you just isolate until after Shabbos??
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 10:40:54 AM
Why can't you just isolate until after Shabbos??
People who were in contact with the corona patient need to isolate as well. Keeping Shabbos when Hashem doesn't want you to is a worse Aveira than desecrating Shabbos when he wants you to keep it.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: shapsam on July 03, 2020, 10:44:55 AM
People who were in contact with the corona patient need to isolate as well. Keeping Shabbos when Hashem doesn't want you to is a worse Aveira than desecrating Shabbos when he wants you to keep it.
So they don't isolate pending a test result? That makes no sense Shabbos or otherwise.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 10:48:06 AM
So they don't isolate pending a test result? That makes no sense Shabbos or otherwise.
You expect everybody who was in contact with somebody who got a Corona test, in many cases asymptomatic, to fully isolate themselves? If symptomatic Covid patients don't take long crowded flights, דיינו
Then there are also more screening tests for people exposed to somebody positive.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Lurker on July 03, 2020, 10:54:25 AM
So they don't isolate pending a test result? That makes no sense Shabbos or otherwise.

The people taking the test can be expected to isolate, but the people they've come in contact with are not. The reason for taking the call on shabbos is so that the infected person's contacts can immediately isolate and take tests before the spread becomes exponentially worse. How they find out that they need to isolate on shabbos, that I don't know.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 03, 2020, 11:19:43 AM
The people taking the test can be expected to isolate, but the people they've come in contact with are not. The reason for taking the call on shabbos is so that the infected person's contacts can immediately isolate and take tests before the spread becomes exponentially worse. How they find out that they need to isolate on shabbos, that I don't know.
I believe Zaka volunteers try to locate them.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: S209 on July 03, 2020, 02:49:33 PM
https://www.kikar.co.il/366014.html

Israeli media is reporting a growing sentiment by Israeli Charedim to avoid Corona tests, since the government places local lockdowns where many infections are detected.

As of right now, Yeshiva בית מתתיהו has over 80 positive cases, including the Rosh Yeshiva, who allegedly instructed Bochurim not to get tests so the Yeshiva can remain open. Yeshiva עטרת שלמה has at least 12 positive cases. The Belzer Rov forbids his chassidim from wearing masks.

The vast majority of Israeli Rabbis are vehemently encouraging everybody to follow governments guidelines as a minimum, even answering the phone on shabbos to get Corona test results.
My uncle in Yerushalayim (who’s showing all of the symptoms and is high risk) was told by his Rav to isolate but not take the test because it’ll make Chareidim look bad
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Moshe123 on July 03, 2020, 03:26:38 PM
Selective enforcement and selective lockdowns breed distrust. The government is to blame.

People should get tested privately.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: S209 on July 03, 2020, 03:31:29 PM
Selective enforcement and selective lockdowns breed distrust. The government is to blame.

People should get tested privately.
Blame or not people need to be tested and inform their contacts to isolate
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ari3 on July 03, 2020, 03:32:00 PM
https://www.kikar.co.il/366014.html

Israeli media is reporting a growing sentiment by Israeli Charedim to avoid Corona tests, since the government places local lockdowns where many infections are detected.

As of right now, Yeshiva בית מתתיהו has over 80 positive cases, including the Rosh Yeshiva, who allegedly instructed Bochurim not to get tests so the Yeshiva can remain open. Yeshiva עטרת שלמה has at least 12 positive cases. The Belzer Rov forbids his chassidim from wearing masks.
Don't beleive everything you read
Quote
The vast majority of Israeli Rabbis are vehemently encouraging everybody to follow governments guidelines as a minimum, even answering the phone on shabbos to get Corona test results.
This was the psak at the beginning when they were trying to contain it before it spreads. Is this still the psak to answer the phone on shabbos? I doubt it. Definitely not if you ask those allegedly saying not to get tested

Additionally you write "The vast majority of Israeli Rabbis are vehemently encouraging everybody to follow governments guidelines" yet you write in the heading "Charedim Refusing Corona Tests" painting them all with one brush. If I wrote that about blacks you would call me a racist (and rightfully so). Based the way you are writing this may belong in the "antisemitism related to corona thread"

Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Drago on July 04, 2020, 03:07:41 PM
Selective enforcement and selective lockdowns breed distrust. The government is to blame.

People should get tested privately.
what are some examples of selective lockdowns that you've seen?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: a mirrer on July 04, 2020, 04:05:15 PM
what are some examples of selective lockdowns that you've seen?
in elad the city didn't meet any of the necessary criteria but they put it in lockdown without even consulting the mayor while other cities that have Likud mayors were consulted and managed to avoid getting locked down
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ExGingi on July 04, 2020, 11:36:00 PM
Selective enforcement and selective lockdowns breed distrust. The government is to blame.

People should get tested privately.
+ 0.5

What's the point of being tested?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ExGingi on July 04, 2020, 11:37:18 PM
Blame or not people need to be tested and inform their contacts to isolate

How about inform everyone without being tested?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Euclid on July 05, 2020, 12:32:29 AM
+ 0.5

What's the point of being tested?
So doctors can know how to treat you?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: lubaby on July 05, 2020, 12:41:33 AM
My uncle in Yerushalayim (who’s showing all of the symptoms and is high risk) was told by his Rav to isolate but not take the test because it’ll make Chareidim look bad
Things you never thought you’d have to say:

“I hope he doesn’t listen to his Rav”
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ExGingi on July 05, 2020, 12:58:38 AM
So doctors can know how to treat you?

If it's up to the point of needing medical care, refusing a test is a moot point.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: KSMH on July 05, 2020, 01:02:12 AM
If you ppl think American politics is corrupt... it's small play by Israeli standards.

They discriminate against charedim at a larger scale then  Deblasio.  Its accepted as normal by the general population.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2020, 01:29:26 AM
+ 0.5

What's the point of being tested?
So if they travel out of the country they would be able to return without quarantine.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 05, 2020, 02:29:30 AM
So if they travel out of the country they would be able to return without quarantine.
Most dont travel out of the country regularly. Next?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Drago on July 05, 2020, 07:37:17 AM
How about inform everyone without being tested?
Unless s/o is diagnosed positive, his contacts are highly unlikely to quarantine as it's a big disruption to life and work. And "close contact" is typically with ppl in the general public, who he'll have no way to contact.

Nor do i think that most ppl who refuse to test despite having symptoms are actually self-quarantining in order to keep those around them safe.

Hopefully, they'll be able to crack down and punish ppl who purposely put others in danger.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Drago on July 05, 2020, 07:40:38 AM
in elad the city didn't meet any of the necessary criteria but they put it in lockdown without even consulting the mayor while other cities that have Likud mayors were consulted and managed to avoid getting locked down
Which 'Likud' cities had the high rates in April that Bnei Brak, Jerusalem, etc had, yet avoided quarantine?
I'm not saying there wasn't, I simply don't recall. 
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: a mirrer on July 06, 2020, 03:53:55 AM
Which 'Likud' cities had the high rates in April that Bnei Brak, Jerusalem, etc had, yet avoided quarantine?
I'm not saying there wasn't, I simply don't recall.
not in April but now at the same point that elad was put in lockdown bat yam had similar percentage points but wasn't put into lockdown because the mayor kicked up a fuss
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: yelped on July 06, 2020, 07:31:55 AM
not in April but now at the same point that elad was put in lockdown bat yam had similar percentage points but wasn't put into lockdown because the mayor kicked up a fuss
Or maybe it is because in Bat Yam the residents who have it can be relied on to quarantine themselves and in Arad they cannot be relied on, because they were told not to listen?

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just saying that according to the premise of this thread, it's a possibility that makes sense.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: a mirrer on July 06, 2020, 08:05:04 AM
Or maybe it is because in Bat Yam the residents who have it can be relied on to quarantine themselves and in Arad they cannot be relied on, because they were told not to listen?

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just saying that according to the premise of this thread, it's a possibility that makes sense.
so you are making accusations that even the Israeli anti semites haven't yet come up with and using that to justify discrimination. Even in those places that aren't getting tested, anyone who has symptoms is acting as if they have been infected i.e. self isolating and letting those who were in contact with them know. The only difference a test would make is for the statisticians to know how many people have been infected.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2020, 08:33:51 AM
The only difference a test would make is for the statisticians to know how many people have been infected.
And the hypothetical ability to avoid quarantine upon returning to Israel from an overseas trip.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Ergel on July 06, 2020, 08:51:20 AM
And the hypothetical ability to avoid quarantine upon returning to Israel from an overseas trip.
LOL, you aren't going to give this up, huh?
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2020, 09:00:30 AM
LOL, you aren't going to give this up, huh?

I wasn't the one to bring it up on this thread IINM. I don't think it's much of an issue for those living there, which is why I call it hypothetical.

So if they travel out of the country they would be able to return without quarantine.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: yelped on July 06, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
so you are making accusations that even the Israeli anti semites haven't yet come up with and using that to justify discrimination. Even in those places that aren't getting tested, anyone who has symptoms is acting as if they have been infected i.e. self isolating and letting those who were in contact with them know. The only difference a test would make is for the statisticians to know how many people have been infected.
I was saying that if the OP is correct, then the Israeli government is justified in differentiating between the 2 cities.
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2020, 09:49:44 AM
I wasn't the one to bring it up on this thread IINM. I don't think it's much of an issue for those living there, which is why I call it hypothetical.


LOL that you don't think that was you bringing it up. :P
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: PlatinumGuy on August 09, 2020, 12:14:41 AM
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/thousands-gather-for-hassidic-wedding-violating-health-regulations-637664

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-thousands-of-hasidim-attend-wedding-in-jerusalem-violating-coronavirus-orders-1.9051584

Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: shulemw on August 09, 2020, 01:56:45 AM
In a few months you can come back to this thread and see all have concluded that the leader of that chasuna was right....
Title: Re: Could It Get Any Worse? Charedim Refusing Corona Tests
Post by: Lurker on August 09, 2020, 02:13:27 AM
In a few months you can come back to this thread and see all have concluded that the leader of that chasuna was right....

Amen.