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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 Discussion Board => Topic started by: ExGingi on July 27, 2020, 08:26:22 PM

Title: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 27, 2020, 08:26:22 PM
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Essen est zich on July 27, 2020, 10:43:50 PM


The video got taken down...
Ridiculous censorship...
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 02:32:38 AM
The video got taken down...
Ridiculous censorship...

Iím against censorship (including here) but the 10 minutes that I watched was in fact filled with fake news. Naming yourself ďAmericaís front lineĒ as a make believe official org doesnít make it any more real either.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: ExGingi on July 28, 2020, 02:33:44 AM
Iím against censorship (including here) but the 10 minutes that I watched was in fact filled with fake news. Naming yourself ďAmericaís front lineĒ as a make believe official org doesnít make it any more real either.

I only watched a piece about HCQ
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 02:45:19 AM
I only watched a piece about HCQ

Iím mostly referring to a blatant lie about children literally never transmitting corona - despite numerous studies to the contrary, in fact studies from South Korea show that children ages 10-19 transmit corona just as effectively as adults. The segment about fear is the same segment Iíve been hearing since early February, when corona was supposedly 100x safer than the flu.

Re HCQ: Saw that as well. Wonít argue with the anecdotal evidence, but wonít readily believe it over the double blind randomized studies showing its ineffective when there hasnít been a rigid study proving any efficacy. Still itís sad that it became political because Iím not against people using it. But making claims about its unbelievable efficacy purely based on anecdotal evidence after having 6 months to study it and coming up with blanks, is pretty much fake news for me.

Iím curious how many of these ďfront lineĒ doctors actually work on the front lines. I didnít hear any of them say something like - I work in a Florida/Texas/Arizona hospital. Because the ones that actually do, donít sound anything like this.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: 4yourinfo on July 28, 2020, 09:30:53 AM


Re HCQ: Saw that as well. Wonít argue with the anecdotal evidence, but wonít readily believe it over the double blind randomized studies showing its ineffective when there hasnít been a rigid study proving any efficacy. Still itís sad that it became political because Iím not against people using it. But making claims about its unbelievable efficacy purely based on anecdotal evidence after having 6 months to study it and coming up with blanks, is pretty much fake news for me.


There was a Henry ford study which all the news sites seem to have conveniently forgotten about..
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 09:58:04 AM
There was a Henry ford study which all the news sites seem to have conveniently forgotten about..

That was not a rigid study. Wasn't randomized at all.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: 4yourinfo on July 28, 2020, 10:21:26 AM
That was not a rigid study. Wasn't randomized at all.
Ok - but why does every left wing news site call the drug discredited, talk about the studies that were discontinued... not a word about the retracted lancet study, Henry Ford study? And why is Twitter and Facebook removing the video?  They also require a "rigid study"? Is there a "Rigid study" regarding face masks, social distancing, etc.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Ok - but why does every left wing news site call the drug discredited, talk about the studies that were discontinued...

Because they listen to the FDA, as the law requires them to.

Now if only we'd vote Trump in so he can take control of the FDA and remove their political decision making...
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 11:01:14 AM
Ok - but why does every left wing news site call the drug discredited, talk about the studies that were discontinued... not a word about the retracted lancet study, Henry Ford study?

Because that's what the MSM does. I might also mention there are double blind studies showing the HCQ is ineffective, so the lack of a comparably rigorous study proving it wrong, I'll go with where the scientific evidence is pointing. Don't forget - we're 6 months and dozens of HCQ studies into this, and still have yet to see any proving it's efficacy in a double blind randomized study. At this point there should more than just anecdotal evidence to rely on.

Quote
And why is Twitter and Facebook removing the video?  They also require a "rigid study"? Is there a "Rigid study" regarding face masks, social distancing, etc.

I don't know, because as usual they love to censor? I don't believe in censorship even for fake news videos, but the truth is there is real harm caused by the fake news they are touting. Telling people not to wear masks, claiming that the corona is 100% cured and to not be careful anymore, claiming that children can't transmit corona, calling themselves America's frontline to deceive people, etc. When they removed the video, I disagree with it, but I understand them.

OTOH, Mask science is real and has been proven dozens of times over. If you need links to the studies, I can post it.

I'd like to add, that the fact that there is a certain political agenda against HCQ, does not mean that HCQ must be effective. The university of Minnesota conducted a double blind randomized study with a bias to try and prove that HCQ is effective, and they ended up finding out otherwise.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: ExGingi on July 28, 2020, 11:48:09 AM

Will we ever see animal masks mandated?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 01:07:32 PM
The video got taken down...
Ridiculous censorship...

Look up Dr. Stella Immanuel. If that's the best spokesperson they could come up with, I'm ok with a little Soviet-style censorship here.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: stooges44 on July 28, 2020, 01:37:31 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/aa9de0e36b8ce53611589fbd106bebd7.png)
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 28, 2020, 01:40:28 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/aa9de0e36b8ce53611589fbd106bebd7.png)
Did you have any preexisting conditions?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: avromie7 on July 28, 2020, 01:59:10 PM
Look up Dr. Stella Immanuel. If that's the best spokesperson they could come up with, I'm ok with a little Soviet-style censorship here.
Link? I did a quick google search and didn't notice anything alarming.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 02:05:44 PM
Link? I did a quick google search and didn't notice anything alarming.

Consider the sources, but they also have sources.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fb-8569087/From-alien-DNA-cures-sex-dreams-witches-Ideas-Dr-Stella-Immanuel-promoted-Trump.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stella-immanuel-trumps-new-covid-doctor-believes-in-alien-dna-demon-sperm-and-hydroxychloroquine

https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/dr-stella-immanuel/

Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 04:37:18 PM
Iím curious how many of these ďfront lineĒ doctors actually work on the front lines. I didnít hear any of them say something like - I work in a Florida/Texas/Arizona hospital. Because the ones that actually do, donít sound anything like this.

Because once they get to the hospital its too late. Dr Zelenko has been saying this for months. The HCQ and Zinc is to prevent the patent from getting serious enough that he ever needs to go the hospital. All the studies that found HCQ to be ineffective were done either without Zinc or after the patient was already very ill.

Like everything in the world, you need to follow the money. There is no money made from HCQ so its pushed down. Its very simple
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Ergel on July 28, 2020, 04:40:46 PM
Because once they get to the hospital its too late. Dr Zelenko has been saying this for months. The HCQ and Zinc is to prevent the patent from getting serious enough that he ever needs to go the hospital. All the studies that found HCQ to be ineffective were done either without Zinc or after the patient was already very ill.

Like everything in the world, you need to follow the money. There is no money made from HCQ so its pushed down. Its very simple
You honestly believe that doctors are not using something they believe works because there is no money?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: stooges44 on July 28, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
You honestly believe that doctors are not using something they believe works because there is no money?

Read his interview in the yated from a few weeks ago and you decide.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 04:49:31 PM
Because they are believe there will be pushback from the media/ pharmaceutical companies and they will get in trouble. There will be a "boycott" against them or something similar. Yes 100%. There was just a study that shows that americans are scared to express their true beliefs about anything bc they will get in trouble at heir job, with their family, lose their friends etc. Its much easier to remain silent. And the torah has already told us Hakesef yaaneh is hakol. This isnt rocket science. You dont see how the media portrays anything trump related or trump supported?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 04:53:16 PM
Okay that was Shlomo Hamelech in Koheles, the smartest man that ever lived. The Trah says Hashochad yiaver einei pikchim. Equally applicable
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Ergel on July 28, 2020, 04:55:10 PM
Read his interview in the yated from a few weeks ago and you decide.
Who's interview?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 04:58:08 PM
Because once they get to the hospital its too late. Dr Zelenko has been saying this for months. The HCQ and Zinc is to prevent the patient from getting serious enough that he ever needs to go the hospital.

Source? Still waiting for a study proving this 6 month old theory. Anecdotal evidence and hearsay isn't quite convincing.

Quote
All the studies that found HCQ to be ineffective were done either without Zinc or after the patient was already very ill.
Like everything in the world, you need to follow the money. There is no money made from HCQ so its pushed down. Its very simple

This double blind randomized study (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207) looked at HCQ as a early treatment and didn't find it effective. It also says: "Additional post hoc analyses showed that self-reported use of zinc or vitamin C in addition to hydroxychloroquine did not improve symptoms over use of hydroxychloroquine alone".
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yungermanchik on July 28, 2020, 05:00:20 PM
Who's interview?
Dr. Zelenko's. it was in 2 weeks ago's Yated. But it's not available online. However, a follow-up article is: https://yated.com/public-trust-shaken-by-fraudulent-covid-19-studies/
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:00:28 PM
Who's interview?

Dr Zelenko
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:04:53 PM
Source? Still waiting for a study proving this 6 month old theory. Anecdotal evidence and hearsay isn't quite convincing.

This double blind randomized study (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207) looked at HCQ as a early treatment and didn't find it effective. It also says: "Additional post hoc analyses showed that self-reported use of zinc or vitamin C in addition to hydroxychloroquine did not improve symptoms over use of hydroxychloroquine alone".

Sorry but I would rather look at anecdotal evidence (aka reality) then at these studies. Now pre-trump I never would say this. But in todays world there is so much falsehood, such an agenda, such a narrative, so many debunked anti-trump studies, articles, polls etc that I will much faster believe a religious persons feelings about the real workd who has actually treated 100s of patients than at the MSM corruption that has been proven wrong so many times. Even Fauci is turning out to be a political hack. Sorry that is just how it is. I wish iit weren't but it is. In today's world, truth is fiction and fiction is truth.



Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Ergel on July 28, 2020, 05:05:10 PM
Dr Zelenko
Quote from: Yated
Dr. Zev Zelenko, a renowned expert on Covid-19
This Dr. Zelenko?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Ergel on July 28, 2020, 05:06:53 PM
Sorry but I would rather look at anecdotal evidence (aka reality) reality then at these studies. Now pre-trump I never would say this. But in todays world there is so much falsehood, such an agenda, such a narrative, so many debunked anti-trump studies, articles, polls etc that I will much faster believe a religious persons feelings about the real workd who has actually treated 100s of patiients than at the MSM corruption that has been proven wrong so many times. Even Fauci is turning out to be a political hack. Sorry that is just how it is. I wish iit weren't but it is. In todays world, truth is fiction and fiction is truth
And this is why the world is going to pot - because this isn't even so crazy. I disagree with your conclusions, but I understand where you are coming from
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:07:53 PM
This Dr. Zelenko?

Yes. Dr Zev (Vladimir) Zelenko
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:10:35 PM
And this is why the world is going to pot - because this isn't even so crazy. I disagree with your conclusions, but I understand where you are coming from

I suppose nobody will know for certain how it will turn out for another few years. But I really belive that  Zelenko and Immanuel will be in the right side of history.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:11:16 PM
Sorry but I would rather look at anecdotal evidence (aka reality) then at these studies. Now pre-trump I never would say this. But in todays world there is so much falsehood, such an agenda, such a narrative, so many debunked anti-trump studies, articles, polls etc that I will much faster believe a religious persons feelings about the real workd who has actually treated 100s of patients than at the MSM corruption that has been proven wrong so many times. Even Fauci is turning out to be a political hack. Sorry that is just how it is. I wish iit weren't but it is. In today's world, truth is fiction and fiction is truth.

Since you know everyone's true motives, please tell me what's the agenda of the university of Minnesota? They state that they were hoping to find that HCQ is in fact effective. It was not conducted to prove that HCQ is useless.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:15:10 PM
Since you know everyone's true motives, please tell me what's the agenda of the university of Minnesota? They state that they were hoping to find that HCQ is in fact effective. It was not conducted to prove that HCQ is useless.

They say that is their agenda. That doesnt mean that is really their agenda. Just like AOC says her agenda is to save the planet with the green new deal and then her advisor says its about the economy. Trust me I would love to eat crow on this. But at this point I am going to follow the money on everything. Unless its about getting Trump out of office. Since HCQ is about the money AND getting Trump out of office I definitely dont believ the study. Okay thats a but strong but I am going to take hit with a heaping spoon of salt

You can think I am crazy. Thats fine. Nobody will know conclusiveky for sure for another few years. But I bet if you had to be treated with Covid at THIS point you would faster go to Zelenko then Fauci
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:18:17 PM
Sorry but I would rather look at anecdotal evidence (aka reality) then at these studies. Now pre-trump I never would say this. But in todays world there is so much falsehood, such an agenda, such a narrative, so many debunked anti-trump studies, articles, polls etc that I will much faster believe a religious persons feelings about the real workd who has actually treated 100s of patients than at the MSM corruption that has been proven wrong so many times. Even Fauci is turning out to be a political hack. Sorry that is just how it is. I wish iit weren't but it is. In today's world, truth is fiction and fiction is truth.

Also now that you clearly stated that you have zero regard for science or studies, what makes Zelenko study so remarkably truthful? Is he 100% leshem shamayim or is there a chance he's in it for the fame and constant interviews? And since you hate political hacks, how does your strong belief in an unscientific opinion not make you a hack?

Unrelated question - would you claim publicly that there is a cure for corona and tell people not to wear masks based on dr z? Or do you separate that which you believe personally and what you would advise others.

Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:19:57 PM
You can think I am crazy. Thats fine. Nobody will know conclusiveky for sure for another few years. But I bet if you had to be treated with Covid at THIS point you would faster go to Zelenko then Fauci

Fauci is a thousand times more truthful than Zelenko. I hope Zelenko is somehow right but he makes it difficult to believe anything he says.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 05:21:57 PM
Zelenko study
What's that? Last I saw, he claimed his patients have a 99.3% survival rate, which is the same as Coronavirus around the world with or without HCQ
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:22:03 PM
Since you know everyone's true motives, please tell me what's the agenda of the university of Minnesota? They state that they were hoping to find that HCQ is in fact effective. It was not conducted to prove that HCQ is useless.

That study as far as I am aware also did not include Zinc in it. Anyway I would like to know how you believe that a drug that worked in this coctail could have cured 99% of patients it was done on then be found in a study to be worthless. If someone told you that a study found that drinking water didnt cure dehydration would you belive that?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:23:04 PM
Fauci is a thousand times more truthful than Zelenko. I hope Zelenko is somehow right but he makes it difficult to believe anything he says.

Really? Like Fauci saying that masks arent necessaery? What lies did Zelenko say?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 05:24:02 PM
Really? Like Fauci saying that masks arent necessaery? What lies did Zelenko say?
That 20,000 people in KJ had Coronavirus
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: aygart on July 28, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
But at this point I am going to follow the money on everything. Unless its about getting Trump out of office. Since HCQ is about the money AND getting Trump out of office I definitely dont believ the study.

Okay, so can you please explain to us this money trail that you so meticulously followed?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:24:36 PM
Just curious - how exactly do I follow the money? Are there no companies that produce hcq, zpac, and zinc? Perhaps they won't make hundreds billions, but if it's in fact effective, that's billions of dollars for an already produced drug. What about insurance companies, don't they save billions of dollars if there's a cure? Where do I follow the money to? Do I need a 5g microchip implanted in my brain to get directions to Fauci's secret offshore bank on Bill Gates' island?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:24:43 PM
What's that? Last I saw, he claimed his patients have a 99.3% survival rate, which is the same as Coronavirus around the world with or without HCQ

Many people with Covid dont go to a dr. They never become a "patient". 99.3% of patients of a Dr is a better metric than than 99.3% of all cases
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 05:25:17 PM
Many people with Covid dont go to a dr. They never become a "patient". 99.3% of patients of a Dr is a better metric than than 99.3% of all cases
I doubt it. I'm sure he's counting anybody he prescribed HCQ to.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:27:46 PM
That study as far as I am aware also did not include Zinc in it. Anyway I would like to know how you believe that a drug that worked in this coctail could have cured 99% of patients it was done on then be found in a study to be worthless. If someone told you that a study found that drinking water didnt cure dehydration would you belive that?

In fact, the study included people that used zinc, if you read my earlier reply. The link is above and can repost if necessary. While you're at it and you are very into solid evidence, I'd like to see your study that included zinc, and proves otherwise.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:28:40 PM
Just curious - how exactly do I follow the money? Are there no companies that produce hcq, zpac, and zinc? Perhaps they won't make hundreds billions, but if it's in fact effective, that's billions of dollars for an already produced drug. What about insurance companies, don't they save billions of dollars if there's a cure? Where do I follow the money to? Do I need a 5g microchip implanted in my brain to get directions to Fauci's secret offshore bank on Bill Gates' island?

Um as far as I know, HCQ is a generic drug and extremely cheap. So is Zinc. There is a lot less profit there than selling a new vaccine. You do get that right? Regarding insurance, its funny that you dont ask that to Bernie Sanders and everyone else saying how the drug companies are making bilions and of dollars at our expense. Why would any politician need to talk about presription drugs being too high? Arent the insurance companies lobbying for that?

Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:30:05 PM
I doubt it. I'm sure he's counting anybody he prescribed HCQ to.

Right those are all his patients...?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Ergel on July 28, 2020, 05:30:32 PM
The point is @Lamppost may or may not be a crazy person, but has been driven to crazy views by a world gone insane. To me that is the scariest part
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: aygart on July 28, 2020, 05:30:39 PM
Um as far as I know, HCQ is a generic drug and extremely cheap. So is Zinc. There is a lot less profit there than selling a new vaccine. You do get that right? Regarding insurance, its funny that you dont ask that to Bernie Sanders and everyone else saying how the drug companies are making bilions and of dollars at our expense. Why would any politician need to talk about presription drugs being too high? Arent the insurance companies lobbying for that?


Huh?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:32:45 PM
Also now that you clearly stated that you have zero regard for science or studies, what makes Zelenko study so remarkably truthful? Is he 100% leshem shamayim or is there a chance he's in it for the fame and constant interviews? And since you hate political hacks, how does your strong belief in an unscientific opinion not make you a hack?

Unrelated question - would you claim publicly that there is a cure for corona and tell people not to wear masks based on dr z? Or do you separate that which you believe personally and what you would advise others.

No I wouldnt and I do think she shouldnt have said that. But she is a dr with actual patients and I am not.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 05:34:07 PM
Right those are all his patients...?
Yeah but his whole concept is giving it BEFORE infection, so many of the people he's counting probably never got Covid and the 99.3% survival rate is counting those people, whereas only ~0.65% of covid carriers died. He likely has a worse mortality rate because his sample size is biased towards high risk patients who sought him out in the first place.

Either way, he never backed up his claim with data and he's been proven to have a poor understanding of numbers, to put it mildly.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yuneeq on July 28, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
Um as far as I know, HCQ is a generic drug and extremely cheap. So is Zinc. There is a lot less profit there than selling a new vaccine. You do get that right? Regarding insurance, its funny that you dont ask that to Bernie Sanders and everyone else saying how the drug companies are making bilions and of dollars at our expense. Why would any politician need to talk about presription drugs being too high? Arent the insurance companies lobbying for that?

I know people that sold 20 cent masks and made millions of dollars. Yes the regiment may be cheap but there's still billions of dollars to be made. And when there's money to be made, there's a company behind it with an agenda. While I'm still following the money, insurance companies would gladly push an agenda for HCQ if it saved them hundreds of billions of dollars. Don't understand what you're saying about Bernie.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:35:51 PM
Yeah but his whole concept is giving it BEFORE infection, so many of the people he's counting probably never got Covid and the 99.3% survival rate is counting those people, whereas only ~0.65% of covid carriers died. He likely has a worse mortality rate because his sample size is biased towards high risk patients who sought him out in the first place.

Either way, he never backed up his claim with data and he's been proven to have a poor understanding of numbers, to put it mildly.

If that is the case then I stand corrected
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 05:37:38 PM
The point is @Lamppost may or may not be a crazy person, but has been driven to crazy views by a world gone insane. To me that is the scariest part

I may have crazy views :) But I promise you I am quite normal. Trying to make sense of a world gone mad.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 05:44:27 PM
IINM, Dr. Zelenko's protocol was not to give meds before infection, but immediately with the onset of symptoms. However, he also didn't have tests to give everyone, so he treated anyone with a hint of a symptom as a presumed positive. His 99.3% recovery rate is far from a reliable number, given the lack of info.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: aygart on July 28, 2020, 05:48:20 PM
IINM, Dr. Zelenko's protocol was not to give meds before infection, but immediately with the onset of symptoms. However, he also didn't have tests to give everyone, so he treated anyone with a hint of a symptom as a presumed positive. His 99.3% recovery rate is far from a reliable number, given the lack of info.
Is it based on his claim that the entire KJ got it?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 06:01:02 PM
Is it based on his claim that the entire KJ got it?

No, it's based on the patients he actually treated, which was in the hundreds. He treated them remotely through tele-medicine, and I'm pretty sure most of them did not get tested. Watch his early videos from March.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yaakov35 on July 28, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
Is it based on his claim that the entire KJ got it?
He wasn't wrong....
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: aygart on July 28, 2020, 06:04:18 PM
He wasn't wrong....
100%? Source? I don't think that anywhere has shown more than 60-70%?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: yaakov35 on July 28, 2020, 06:06:37 PM
100%? Source? I don't think that anywhere has shown more than 60-70%?
Its KJ... nobody tested there. But one of the urgent cares said that their positivity rates for antibodies were well over 80%. But they're never gonna make the info publicly available. But ask anyone in kj, 20k is under counting.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: moish on July 28, 2020, 06:19:35 PM
You guys are completely misrepresenting what he did and said. He received over 2000 patients. Of those, he treated around 800 with his regimen.
The idea is that HCQ+zinc+azythromycin  works in the outpatient setting to prevent the virus from becoming a full blown inferno. He believed it was only effective in the first 5 days of infection.
So... By the time a patient presented to a doctor, it was generally day 4 or 5. To wait 3 days for results was too long, because by day 8 he felt it was too late. So he prescribed to those showing symptoms over the age of 60 or had comorbidities. 
His numbers take into account the full 2200 who presented with symptoms. To compare that with the general population is ludicrous.
Bottom line... The demographics in KJ is similar to that of BP and Willie, yet we don't find a similar pattern of destruction. Is it possible that it was due to his regimen? Absolutely. It's mind boggling that that isn't enough for people when there isn't an alternative. Sure, a randomized study would be great, but let's grab the driftwood to prevent drowning and then we can figure out how to build a boat.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 06:29:22 PM
You guys are completely misrepresenting what he did and said. He received over 2000 patients. Of those, he treated around 800 with his regimen.
The idea is that HCQ+zinc+azythromycin  works in the outpatient setting to prevent the virus from becoming a full blown inferno. He believed it was only effective in the first 5 days of infection.
So... By the time a patient presented to a doctor, it was generally day 4 or 5. To wait 3 days for results was too long, because by day 8 he felt it was too late. So he prescribed to those showing symptoms over the age of 60 or had comorbidities. 
His numbers take into account the full 2200 who presented with symptoms. To compare that with the general population is ludicrous.
Bottom line... The demographics in KJ is similar to that of BP and Willie, yet we don't find a similar pattern of destruction. Is it possible that it was due to his regimen? Absolutely. It's mind boggling that that isn't enough for people when there isn't an alternative. Sure, a randomized study would be great, but let's grab the driftwood to prevent drowning and then we can figure out how to build a boat.

But what about all the studies that say that HCQ doesnt work?!This doesnt shtim with that!! ;)
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Euclid on July 28, 2020, 06:30:32 PM
You guys are completely misrepresenting what he did and said. He received over 2000 patients. Of those, he treated around 800 with his regimen.
The idea is that HCQ+zinc+azythromycin  works in the outpatient setting to prevent the virus from becoming a full blown inferno. He believed it was only effective in the first 5 days of infection.
So... By the time a patient presented to a doctor, it was generally day 4 or 5. To wait 3 days for results was too long, because by day 8 he felt it was too late. So he prescribed to those showing symptoms over the age of 60 or had comorbidities. 
His numbers take into account the full 2200 who presented with symptoms. To compare that with the general population is ludicrous.
Bottom line... The demographics in KJ is similar to that of BP and Willie, yet we don't find a similar pattern of destruction. Is it possible that it was due to his regimen? Absolutely. It's mind boggling that that isn't enough for people when there isn't an alternative. Sure, a randomized study would be great, but let's grab the driftwood to prevent drowning and then we can figure out how to build a boat.
It could also be due to the relatively young average age of KJ.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: aygart on July 28, 2020, 06:32:25 PM
It could also be due to the relatively young average age of KJ.
Or many other possible reasons including that maybe the first cases in the community were a couple of weeks later.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: moish on July 28, 2020, 06:34:20 PM
It could also be due to the relatively young average age of KJ.
2 deaths in the 800 of over 60 or underlying conditions.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 06:49:02 PM
2 deaths in the 800 of over 60 or underlying conditions.

Source for the numbers? I thought it was closer to 400, but I really don't remember.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 06:53:38 PM
You guys are completely misrepresenting what he did and said. He received over 2000 patients. Of those, he treated around 800 with his regimen.
The idea is that HCQ+zinc+azythromycin  works in the outpatient setting to prevent the virus from becoming a full blown inferno. He believed it was only effective in the first 5 days of infection.
So... By the time a patient presented to a doctor, it was generally day 4 or 5. To wait 3 days for results was too long, because by day 8 he felt it was too late. So he prescribed to those showing symptoms over the age of 60 or had comorbidities. 
His numbers take into account the full 2200 who presented with symptoms. To compare that with the general population is ludicrous.
Bottom line... The demographics in KJ is similar to that of BP and Willie, yet we don't find a similar pattern of destruction. Is it possible that it was due to his regimen? Absolutely. It's mind boggling that that isn't enough for people when there isn't an alternative. Sure, a randomized study would be great, but let's grab the driftwood to prevent drowning and then we can figure out how to build a boat.

Source? He said heís taking it himself without symptoms. Where does he say his survival rate is based on high risk demographic and not everybody he prescribed it to?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: moish on July 28, 2020, 07:01:38 PM
Source? He said heís taking it himself without symptoms.
My source is all the interviews he's given.

There is another avenue which is the prophylactic regimen that does not include Azythromycin, which he only recommends to very high risk individuals such as front line health care providers, nursing home residents, police officers, etc.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: moish on July 28, 2020, 07:02:11 PM
Source for the numbers? I thought it was closer to 400, but I really don't remember.
His interviews
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: avromie7 on July 28, 2020, 07:33:42 PM
I know people that sold 20 cent masks and made millions of dollars. Yes the regiment may be cheap but there's still billions of dollars to be made. And when there's money to be made, there's a company behind it with an agenda. While I'm still following the money, insurance companies would gladly push an agenda for HCQ if it saved them hundreds of billions of dollars. Don't understand what you're saying about Bernie.
I'm not getting involved in the whole discussion, but 2 things you said here are wrong

1) HCQ is insanely cheap, there is no billions of dollars to be made.
2) Insurance companies are mandated to pay out 85% of premiums in claims. This is one of the disasters of obamacare, in the past insurance companies had an incentive to keep their payouts as low as possible, and that brought down the cost of insurance. Now they're incentivized to pay out as much as possible so they can charge more and make more money.
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: moish on July 28, 2020, 07:38:40 PM
Source for the numbers? I thought it was closer to 400, but I really don't remember.
Source?
Watch from 13:30 for 5 minutes

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=718749448688061&ref=watch_permalink
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: stooges44 on July 28, 2020, 07:42:02 PM
waiting for the thread split....
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 07:46:05 PM
Well, the quack actually did publish a preprint of his alleged 99.3% survival rate, and it is based on an analysis of 141 patients.

Yes, he claims he had a subject size of 372 patients, of whom only 164 were given his cocktail, and his analysis refers to 141 of them (median age 58 years, IQR 40-67; 73% male). There is no report of the outcome of the other 23 patients who got the cocktails, which raises a large suspicion that he omitted them because their results were worse.

He is claiming his numbers are far better than a similar demographic of patients who did not receive the HCQ cocktail, however not an ounce of information is provided about these control patients.

Furthermore, I don't believe he discloses if his 141 treatment group also took other medicined like steroids we know help.

Prima facie it appears he cherry-picked a medium risk group whose mortality rate echos the general population rate. His patients are all under 80 with some risk, whereas the general population includes 20yo + 90yo.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 28, 2020, 08:04:50 PM
Watch from 13:30 for 5 minutes

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=718749448688061&ref=watch_permalink
I just did

'I treated 2200 patients, probably more than anyone else in the world'
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: stooges44 on July 28, 2020, 08:54:15 PM
waiting for the thread split....

Score!
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: cks33 on July 28, 2020, 09:24:48 PM
So I am Anesthesiologist who has worked with and treated COVID patients.

I am not sure why people think we are scared of big pharma.  I could care less where or what drug I use in a patient, as long as it makes them better.  I don't get any benefit at ALL from using one drug over another.  I wouldn't be scared to use a generic, in fact, most of us always do if possible.

I think you are nuts if you listen to that video, but, feel free to do that and follow the advice from Dr. Immanuel.

Remember, she said: ďYou donít need masksĒ to prevent spread of the coronavirus.

You are also welcome to walk around in my ICU without a mask, and you can take your HCQ (just make sure to wear a mask so you don't infect innocent bystanders after you are infected).

You do you. I'll do whats best for my patients.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 10:36:38 PM
So I am Anesthesiologist who has worked with and treated COVID patients.

I am not sure why people think we are scared of big pharma.  I could care less where or what drug I use in a patient, as long as it makes them better.  I don't get any benefit at ALL from using one drug over another.  I wouldn't be scared to use a generic, in fact, most of us always do if possible.

I think you are nuts if you listen to that video, but, feel free to do that and follow the advice from Dr. Immanuel.

Remember, she said: ďYou donít need masksĒ to prevent spread of the coronavirus.

You are also welcome to walk around in my ICU without a mask, and you can take your HCQ (just make sure to wear a mask so you don't infect innocent bystanders after you are infected).

You do you. I'll do whats best for my patients.

She should not have said that or that its a cure. But I think its obvious that she meant that the masks wouldnt be necessary to the extent that the world is making it out to be if there is an easy and cheap remedy to the virus. The same way nobody healthy wore masks for basically anything else before corona. BTW, Dr Fauci said the same thing about masks a little while back ;)

To your other pints, the ICU is deifferent obviously. Nobody ever walks into the ICU without PPE, before COvid also. Regarding the drugs, I totally get what youre saying and I am not doubting that. But if there is a new Covid drug released my understanding is that no generic drugs can be manufactured on it until the patent expires on it, no? Wouldnt that give bug pharma an incentive to squash HCQ? I dont know, I am asking not to doubt you, just because I want to know.

Out of curiosity, as a dr, what is your personal opinion on HCQ?
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: thaber on July 28, 2020, 11:02:30 PM
My four cents -
1) anyone who goes off the rails like that shouldn't be listened to. There's clear issues. Sentence by sentence her speech made no sense.
2) HCQ advocates run in the same circles as anti vaxxers.
3) a treatment doesn't preclude the need for a vaccine at all. So no reason for conspiracy theories.
4) plenty of dubious stuff about zelenko that makes a rational person doubt the veracity of what he says on his say so
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lurker on July 28, 2020, 11:06:53 PM
She should not have said that or that its a cure. But I think its obvious that she meant that the masks wouldnt be necessary to the extent that the world is making it out to be if there is an easy and cheap remedy to the virus. The same way nobody healthy wore masks for basically anything else before corona. BTW, Dr Fauci said the same thing about masks a little while back ;)

To your other pints, the ICU is deifferent obviously. Nobody ever walks into the ICU without PPE, before COvid also. Regarding the drugs, I totally get what youre saying and I am not doubting that. But if there is a new Covid drug released my understanding is that no generic drugs can be manufactured on it until the patent expires on it, no? Wouldnt that give bug pharma an incentive to squash HCQ? I dont know, I am asking not to doubt you, just because I want to know.

Out of curiosity, as a dr, what is your personal opinion on HCQ?

Question for you: didn't she say enough that isn't true to make you doubt the veracity of her whole statement?

Also, given what we are seeing with our own eyes, in addition to studies, regarding longer-term effects of the infection, why would you say that a treatment protocol to avoid death would preclude wearing a mask to avoid getting the virus to begin with?
Title: Re: Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
Post by: ExGingi on July 28, 2020, 11:28:41 PM
waiting for the thread split....

Amazing how I post a video that I barely watched, not because I have formulated any opinion of it, but mostly for the style and accent of the speaker, gets pruned and grafted to become a thread that I started with a name I never heard of (and a video that was taken down), and the poor cat with my question derived from it gets dragged along for the ride.  ::)

Must have had something to do with memory getting erased.   ;)
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Mikes@Micro on July 28, 2020, 11:36:18 PM
Amazing how I post a video that I barely watched
I love the way DDF sometimes spins out of control. Way out of control.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 11:51:40 PM
My four cents -
1) anyone who goes off the rails like that shouldn't be listened to. There's clear issues. Sentence by sentence her speech made no sense.
2) HCQ advocates run in the same circles as anti vaxxers.
3) a treatment doesn't preclude the need for a vaccine at all. So no reason for conspiracy theories.
4) plenty of dubious stuff about zelenko that makes a rational person doubt the veracity of what he says on his say so

1) Her speech made sense to me. Now I think that theres plenty of other reasons not to listen to her. She is quite sketchy. But should we throw out the baby with the bathwater? Im not sure. BTW I do belive in wearing masks in general but I am open to the possibilty that were all being mindless sheep
2) 100% False. I am not an anti vaxxer by any stech of the mind. I am quite pro vaxxing. But we dont have a Covid vaccine. So the outright hatred of a very safe and well known drug that has been shown anecdotal evidence to be effective just bc its promoted by Trump seems a bit odd.
3) I agree with you I am not saying not to develop a vaccine. But to keep the world grounded until then bc HCQ is "the enemy" is crazy. Re conspiracy theories, I can think of dozens of anti trump stories that were retracted so basically anything can be a conspiracy theory. Is the Russia collusion a conspiracy theory? Are the Covington kids being the victims conspiracy theories? Is Ukraine a conspiracy theory? Jesse Smollet? You cant trust anything anymore. Not that everythibg the MSM says is false but theres a very clear agenda and teh mistakes only go one way. They themselves admit it!!
4) I am not familair with Zelenkos history so I cant comment on that.

In short I want everyone to be healthy just like everyone else. I have just seen enough propaganda about everything Trump supports to make me doubt anything the MSM says. Thats unfortunate, but thats what it has come to. The study you show me today is discredited tomorrow. In the meantime Zelnko and Immanuels patients are recovering better than anyone else
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lamppost on July 28, 2020, 11:53:29 PM
I love the way DDF sometimes spins out of control. Way out of control.

 ;D Yup, I hardly ever post anything here and I am getting all caught up! Its crazy. These conversations are such a waste of time bc nobody really knows a thing. Its all speculation about stuff that we really dont know. Nobody knows
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 29, 2020, 12:18:18 AM
;D Yup, I hardly ever post anything here and I am getting all caught up! Its crazy. These conversations are such a waste of time bc nobody really knows a thing. Its all speculation about stuff that we really dont know. Nobody knows

And therein lies the line between the two sides IMHO. It's not pro Trump vs anti Trump, it's not pro vax vs anti vax, nor is it R vs D. It's those that are willing to acknowledge human shortcomings and try to do the right thing within the framework given to us by G-d vs those that insist on human power to control everything sooner or later.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lamppost on July 29, 2020, 12:29:29 AM
And therein lies the line between the two sides IMHO. It's not pro Trump vs anti Trump, it's not pro vax vs anti vax, nor is it R vs D. It's those that are willing to acknowledge human shortcomings and try to do the right thing within the framework given to us by G-d vs those that insist on human power to control everything sooner or later.

You got it! And bc the D's hate trump so much it has become a R vs D issue even though that doesnt make any sense. Everyone wants to be healthy. But thats the world we live in. Sad reality :(
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: cks33 on July 29, 2020, 06:54:29 AM
;D Yup, I hardly ever post anything here and I am getting all caught up! Its crazy. These conversations are such a waste of time bc nobody really knows a thing. Its all speculation about stuff that we really dont know. Nobody knows

Scientists know stuff. Like everything else in life there are good scientists and bad scientists. Credentials usually help decipher and seperate  them. Therein lies the major difference between trump fanatics and everyone else. They donít in general believe in science or experts.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Jellybelly on July 29, 2020, 06:58:27 AM
Scientists know stuff. Like everything else in life there are good scientists and bad scientists. Credentials usually help decipher and seperate  them. Therein lies the major difference between trump fanatics and everyone else. They donít in general believe in science or experts.
Lemme guess, you believe in crimate chlange and the world is ending in 7 yrs
🙄
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: yuneeq on July 29, 2020, 08:01:54 AM
And therein lies the line between the two sides IMHO. It's not pro Trump vs anti Trump, it's not pro vax vs anti vax, nor is it R vs D. It's those that are willing to acknowledge human shortcomings and try to do the right thing within the framework given to us by G-d vs those that insist on human power to control everything sooner or later.

False. Itís proven science with common sense vs unproven science with now evidence that current science is flawed. Example - masks preventing asymptomatic people from spreading. Proven science over the last few decades said masks are effective at blocking transmission. Common sense says the same thing as well. Fake unproven science claims that corona is different and masks donít help. Thatís why I argued for masks very early despite the fake news from the CDC. The CDC guidance wasnít science. Strangely enough, studies during corona proved that masks work exactly as anyone that believes in science or common sense would expect. Is it hard to imagine that covering your face holes would be a better block of droplets than no covering at all? A 6 year old can tell you that.

HCQ - we have a double blind randomized study among many others showing its ineffective. On the other side, we have anecdotal evidence from a few pediatricians not known for their veracity, claiming they found a miracle cure and corona is over. Proven science says you donít go around proclaiming that corona is over. Proven science also says you donít ban HCQ because itís proven to be safe for decades. But unproven science says political points are worth more so letís ban it.

The parallel between HCQ promoters and anti-vaxxers is very clear. Deny science in the face of unverified anecdotal evidence coming from Drís making statements not rooted in science at all, many of them anti-vaxxers as well.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: CountValentine on July 29, 2020, 08:11:28 AM
Scientists know stuff. Like everything else in life there are good scientists and bad scientists. Credentials usually help decipher and seperate  them. Therein lies the major difference between trump fanatics and everyone else. They donít in general believe in science or experts.
In Trump we trust.  :)
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lurker on July 29, 2020, 08:24:10 AM
Lemme guess, you believe in crimate chlange and the world is ending in 7 yrs
🙄

Triggered, much? He said Trump and you decided he's Al Gore?
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Jellybelly on July 29, 2020, 09:11:26 AM
Triggered, much? He said Trump and you decided he's Al Gore?
Not at all. Just trying to prove from climate change that there is reason to be skeptical about science. For the record, I vaccinate and donít usually question my doctors. Iím just trying to say, that I understand people that are skeptical
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: cks33 on July 29, 2020, 09:17:45 AM
Not at all. Just trying to prove from climate change that there is reason to be skeptical about science. For the record, I vaccinate and donít usually question my doctors. Iím just trying to say, that I understand people that are skeptical

Not sure what you are "trying to prove from climate change".  I am sorry if you are a climate change denier. Vast majority of scientists think its real.  And if the whole world is conspiring to make up climate change, when they can't agree on a vast majority of other things, you must really think climate change has some special factors favoring it. Even countries that don't see eye to eye on most things (China, USA) had come to an agreement to reduce CO2. But , sure, its a left wing conspiracy.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: cks33 on July 29, 2020, 09:23:58 AM
I'll leave this here:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/how-quack-doctors-and-powerful-gop-operatives-spread-misinformation-to-millions-213923648.html

You decide who to believe.


Many of the members of Americaís Frontline Doctors have promoted fringe views that go against overwhelming medical evidence. The group includes a pro-Trump physician who has appeared on Fox News advocating against lockdowns and an evangelical Christian minister who has promoted bizarre claims about DNA from space aliens being used in medical treatment. Dr. Stella Immmanuel, a minister who operates a tiny walk-in medical clinic out of a strip mall in Texas, falsely claimed there was a ďcureĒ for COVID-19 and suggested that people did not need to wear masks.

Immanuel is the author of several books which contain homophobic and extreme views, as well as writing that the ďHarry PotterĒ series makes society ďaccept demonic activity and witchcraft as normalĒ and that ďdemonic music has penetrated the souls of our children and programmed them with an anti-Christ message.Ē

It is unclear how the group came together, but several have become popular in conservative circles for promoting views that align with Trumpís rhetoric on the pandemic.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: yitzgar on July 29, 2020, 09:54:08 AM
I'll leave this here:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/how-quack-doctors-and-powerful-gop-operatives-spread-misinformation-to-millions-213923648.html

You decide who to believe.


Many of the members of Americaís Frontline Doctors have promoted fringe views that go against overwhelming medical evidence. The group includes a pro-Trump physician who has appeared on Fox News advocating against lockdowns and an evangelical Christian minister who has promoted bizarre claims about DNA from space aliens being used in medical treatment. Dr. Stella Immmanuel, a minister who operates a tiny walk-in medical clinic out of a strip mall in Texas, falsely claimed there was a ďcureĒ for COVID-19 and suggested that people did not need to wear masks.

Immanuel is the author of several books which contain homophobic and extreme views, as well as writing that the ďHarry PotterĒ series makes society ďaccept demonic activity and witchcraft as normalĒ and that ďdemonic music has penetrated the souls of our children and programmed them with an anti-Christ message.Ē

It is unclear how the group came together, but several have become popular in conservative circles for promoting views that align with Trumpís rhetoric on the pandemic.
If the only negative thing they can find about her is her religious beliefs, she must be an excellent doctor. Huffpo opinion piece masquerading as fact definitely won't change anyone heres mind....
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Lurker on July 29, 2020, 10:23:18 AM
If the only negative thing they can find about her is her religious beliefs, she must be an excellent doctor. Huffpo opinion piece masquerading as fact definitely won't change anyone heres mind....

She believes that cysts are devil sperm, inseminated into people by spirits during dreams. She also believes that alien DNA is used in medical treatments. Do those count as a medical opinions or religious beliefs?
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: yitzgar on July 29, 2020, 10:44:23 AM
She believes that cysts are devil sperm, inseminated into people by spirits during dreams. She also believes that alien DNA is used in medical treatments. Do those count as a medical opinions or religious beliefs?
This is more helpful in determining whether she is a good doctor than the fact that she is "homophobic"
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: username on July 29, 2020, 10:53:24 AM

HCQ - we have a double blind randomized study among many others showing its ineffective.

Can you link to these studies? I looked over this study, and as a layman, i dont see proof of anything except that Covid-19 is not (so) dangerous to the age group tested, and that the virus is not so catchy (?!)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

A quick (approximate)summary is that they got 800 people (median age=40, half men, half women) who were in close contact with Covid-19 cases. 400 got HCL, 400 placeba. From each group 50 got sick, and there was 1 hospitalization in each group. No deaths in either group.

And i think that the HCQ promoters agree 100% to the study's stated conclusion. They dont say that it will prevent illness, they just say it will prevent deaths.

"CONCLUSIONS
After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure."
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: username on July 29, 2020, 11:05:36 AM
And the study was back in Marck, only 16 of the symtomatic participants were tested. And as a layman, I dont understand that they initially state that would need 750 people in each group for the study to be valid. Not sure why the number was dropped to 800 total participants.

The study also states (my bold):
"This randomized trial did not demonstrate a significant benefit of hydroxychloroquine as postexposure prophylaxis for Covid-19. Whether preexposure prophylaxis would be effective in high-risk populations is a separate question, with trials ongoing. In order to end the pandemic, a reduction in community transmission is needed"

I believe that this is what the HCQ promoters are arguing.

So I guess my question is: Are there any studies about whether preexposure prophylaxis would be effective in high-risk populations ?

ETA:
So I guess my question is: Are there any studies that preexposure prophylaxis is ineffective or dangerous in high-risk populations ?

Please link if there are.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: neveryou on July 29, 2020, 11:22:43 AM


And the study was back in Marck, only 16 of the symtomatic participants were tested. And as a layman, I dont understand that they initially state that would need 750 people in each group for the study to be valid. Not sure why the number was dropped to 800 total participants.

The study also states (my bold):
"This randomized trial did not demonstrate a significant benefit of hydroxychloroquine as postexposure prophylaxis for Covid-19. Whether preexposure prophylaxis would be effective in high-risk populations is a separate question, with trials ongoing. In order to end the pandemic, a reduction in community transmission is needed"

I believe that this is what the HCQ promoters are arguing.

So I guess my question is: Are there any studies about whether preexposure prophylaxis would be effective in high-risk populations ?

Please link if there are.

Wasn't that what dr zelenko was saying and doing with his patients?
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: username on July 29, 2020, 11:28:12 AM
see my edit
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: cks33 on July 29, 2020, 11:42:26 AM
https://www.youcanknowthings.com/post/does-hydroxychloroquine-work-here-s-what-the-studies-say-so-far
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: chinagel on July 29, 2020, 11:57:16 AM
Lemme guess, you believe in crimate chlange and the world is ending in 7 yrs
🙄
Not sure what you are "trying to prove from climate change".  I am sorry if you are a climate change denier. Vast majority of scientists think its real.  And if the whole world is conspiring to make up climate change, when they can't agree on a vast majority of other things, you must really think climate change has some special factors favoring it. Even countries that don't see eye to eye on most things (China, USA) had come to an agreement to reduce CO2. But , sure, its a left wing conspiracy.
Not bad @Jellybelly
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 29, 2020, 12:04:21 PM
False.

Here's where I think you might be wrong in categorically denying the truth in what I said:

Your post seems to indicate that you're missing my point. I did not give an opinion or make an argument about HCQ or the efficacy of masks. As I believe I've said before, I don't agree with everything that I quote, I often post for to provoke thought, discussion, controversy, critical thinking or just for pure entertainment (just ask @Dan about any post with even the most remote mention of a certain noun starting with a B  ;)). My opinion, which I did post and that you responded to, is that what seems to be drawing the most heated discussion and taking of sides is the "idolization" of science achieved (or achievable) by humans vs. those that will readily acknowledge the inability of humans to understand and grasp everything (which doesn't absolve us from trying to do so). Think of the meaning of תכלית הידיעה שלא נדע.

I've been wanting to post the following story a couple of times, and see how different people would react to it. I will post it here now, and I definitely do acknowledge the differences between that situation and the current one, yet I find value in trying to put oneself into that situation and think honestly about how they would act/react/feel etc. while constantly reflecting on our current situation @Lurker do you want to go first?

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/428230/jewish/Hakafot-in-Liozna.htm
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Ergel on July 29, 2020, 12:26:56 PM
So to summarize, one side says the other side thinks science is infallible.
The other side says, no we don't, but you think that because science is fallible therefore it is meaningless.
Meaning you both claim to hold the same position basically.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 29, 2020, 12:31:58 PM
So to summarize, one side says the other side thinks science is infallible.
The other side says, no we don't, but you think that because science is fallible therefore it is meaningless.
Meaning you both claim to hold the same position basically.

I like your post very much, despite the fact that I disagree with it.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: simple26 on July 29, 2020, 01:47:28 PM
What about this guy ?
ďDr. Harvey Risch, an epidemiology professor at Yale School of Public Health, told Fox News last week that he believes hydroxychloroquine could save 75,000 to 100,000 lives if the drug is widely used to treat coronavirus.Ē
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Ergel on July 29, 2020, 02:19:08 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: moish on July 29, 2020, 04:31:10 PM
2) HCQ advocates run in the same circles as anti vaxxers.
Completely false
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: moish on July 29, 2020, 04:35:51 PM

HCQ - we have a double blind randomized study among many others showing its ineffective. On the other side, we have anecdotal evidence from a few pediatricians not known for their veracity, claiming they found a miracle cure and corona is over. Proven science says you donít go around proclaiming that corona is over. Proven science also says you donít ban HCQ because itís proven to be safe for decades. But unproven science says political points are worth more so letís ban it.

Link? To my knowledge, there has been no double blind study on the efficacy of Zinc+HCQ in the outpatient setting

The Zelenko protocol is more about zinc than about HCQ, which is used here as a zinc ionophore. The studies are focusing on HCQ as a standalone, whereas Zelenko is using it as a delivery system. Theoretically, it could be Zinc+Quercetin.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Kobe bryent on July 29, 2020, 04:36:20 PM
Therein lies the major difference between trump fanatics and everyone else. They donít in general believe in science or experts.
And your basing this on what exactly? I'm surprised you didn't say Republicans.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Kobe bryent on July 29, 2020, 04:39:01 PM
This is truly a testament, how anyone can have their "15 minuets of fame" if they are willing to do get it at any cost.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: avromie7 on July 29, 2020, 05:32:03 PM
Completely false
+1

None of the HCQ advocates I know are anti-vax.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: gozalim on July 29, 2020, 05:47:12 PM
I've been wanting to post the following story a couple of times, and see how different people would react to it. I will post it here now, and I definitely do acknowledge the differences between that situation and the current one, yet I find value in trying to put oneself into that situation and think honestly about how they would act/react/feel etc. while constantly reflecting on our current situation @Lurker do you want to go first?

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/428230/jewish/Hakafot-in-Liozna.htm
מי יתן that our greats and leaders (and rabbonim כהן אשר בימיך) would be the voices suggesting celebration
not the "eyes that G-d gave" layman like me and you
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: yuneeq on July 29, 2020, 05:47:19 PM
Can you link to these studies? I looked over this study, and as a layman, i dont see proof of anything except that Covid-19 is not (so) dangerous to the age group tested, and that the virus is not so catchy (?!)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

A quick (approximate)summary is that they got 800 people (median age=40, half men, half women) who were in close contact with Covid-19 cases. 400 got HCL, 400 placebo. From each group 50 got sick, and there was 1 hospitalization in each group. No deaths in either group.

And i think that the HCQ promoters agree 100% to the study's stated conclusion. They dont say that it will prevent illness, they just say it will prevent deaths.

"CONCLUSIONS
After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure."

Don't have time to read this study, but it doesn't seem to be limited to people that actually caught the virus. So from 800 "exposed" people, only 100 people got sick. Does it prove that HCQ doesn't prevent infection, perhaps, but I don't think it was a claim the zelenkos are making.

From what I understand the study is practically useless in determining if infected patients on HCQ are healthier than placebo, as the study group is way too small. You'd only expect a few hospitalizations in 100 people, you need way more than that.

In the following study, they limited it to people that  basically got infected, and came out that there was no statistical significance from taking HCQ - https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: yuneeq on July 29, 2020, 05:51:28 PM
Link? To my knowledge, there has been no double blind study on the efficacy of Zinc+HCQ in the outpatient setting

The Zelenko protocol is more about zinc than about HCQ, which is used here as a zinc ionophore. The studies are focusing on HCQ as a standalone, whereas Zelenko is using it as a delivery system. Theoretically, it could be Zinc+Quercetin.

Read again, I didn't make a claim about zinc in my post. But now that you mention it, in the following double blind HCQ study, a portion of the group were taking zinc on their own accord, and the study found no statistical benefit.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207

I'm sure it can be studied better, but current evidence is pointing as little usefulness to the zelenko protocol. If in fact it was such a great cure as constantly touted, I would expect to see major noticeable improvements.

Side note: someone mentioned to me that HCQ should work without zinc in many people, as our body produces zinc naturally. Not sure how true this is.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: thaber on July 29, 2020, 06:20:29 PM
Completely false
+1

None of the HCQ advocates I know are anti-vax.
The basis for my comment s an article that stated that It was wildly popularized online in anti vax circles and groups and it spread from there. I have not substantiated myself, but it made sense to me based on the anti establishment tendencies of both groups

ETA: just came across this. Anecdotal Case in point
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 29, 2020, 08:11:30 PM
מי יתן that our greats and leaders (and rabbonim כהן אשר בימיך) would be the voices suggesting celebration
not the "eyes that G-d gave" layman like me and you

As I said
Quote
I definitely do acknowledge the differences between that situation and the current one

I'm not expecting anyone to compare that simchas Torah with the current situation. What I am asking is to take one's current knowledge, attitudes and feelings and imagine themselves back then and there, and try to be honest as to what they would hold/feel/do back then.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: CountValentine on July 29, 2020, 08:27:12 PM
Scientists know stuff. Like everything else in life there are good scientists and bad scientists. Credentials usually help decipher and seperate  them. Therein lies the major difference between trump fanatics and everyone else. They donít in general believe in science or experts.
They believe in science and experts. The problem is they get it from Ripley's Believe It Or Not.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: zh cohen on July 29, 2020, 11:32:42 PM
ďdemonic music has penetrated the souls of our children and programmed them

I'm starting to like this lady
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 30, 2020, 12:44:54 AM
https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535
Point by point rebuttal

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19-evidence-cant-seem-to-kill-it/
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: YankyDoodle on July 30, 2020, 05:42:00 AM
Point by point rebuttal

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19-evidence-cant-seem-to-kill-it/

Not going though
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: jj1000 on July 30, 2020, 10:47:38 AM
https://www.drdaveent.com/post/covid-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-america-s-frontline-doctors
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: gozalim on July 30, 2020, 02:24:33 PM
As I said
I'm not expecting anyone to compare that simchas Torah with the current situation. What I am asking is to take one's current knowledge, attitudes and feelings and imagine themselves back then and there, and try to be honest as to what they would hold/feel/do back then.
one good way to measure;
When each person's own local rabbonim, rebbes and leaders did give guidance, did they accept them with simplicity? Or start calculating כוונה פנימית, that The rabbi really meant otherwise "if he meant what he said then he would..." (this being the actual example in the reshima)
Likewise, arguments in the basis of global economy, as well as personal comfort, logical and accurate as they may be, are products of sechel and of self, not of emunah peshuta
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: moish on July 31, 2020, 10:53:32 AM
https://www.drdaveent.com/post/covid-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-america-s-frontline-doctors
Nicely said
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: Dan on July 31, 2020, 11:01:10 AM
Nicely said
+1
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: ExGingi on July 31, 2020, 11:27:13 AM
Nicely said
+1

TBH, it took these two endorsements to get me to actually follow the link rather than assume it was just part of the regular noise.

The tone (and summary) of this is a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: Stella Immanuel Asks Why We Don't Prescribe Prophylactic Hydroxychloroquine
Post by: gozalim on July 31, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
TBH, it took these two endorsements to get me to actually follow the link rather than assume it was just part of the regular noise.
this