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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 Discussion Board => Topic started by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 07:57:04 PM

Title: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 07:57:04 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/quarantine-forms-nyc-hotels-covid-19-updates/6377769/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ari3 on August 20, 2020, 08:16:25 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/quarantine-forms-nyc-hotels-covid-19-updates/6377769/
there have been some instances of corona spreading at chasunos in NY and Lakewood, often involving out of town guests from places like Baltimore or Florida. I wouldn't consider a cluster of cases caused by a chasuna to be "covid spiking" although it should be watched carefully and care should be taken in these instances to ensure it doesn't spread further.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 08:17:43 PM
there have been some instances of corona spreading at chasunos in NY and Lakewood, often involving out of town guests from places like Baltimore or Florida. I wouldn't consider a cluster of cases caused by a chasuna to be "covid spiking" although it should be watched carefully and care should be taken in these instances to ensure it doesn't spread further.
Maybe not holding illegal gatherings of above 50 people with the out of town guests not abiding by the 14 day quarantine would be a good start.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 08:27:33 PM
Title of the thread
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 08:28:38 PM
Maybe not holding illegal gatherings of above 50 people with the out of town guests not abiding by the 14 day quarantine would be a good start.
Ya OK, this thread is guaranteed to not go anywhere good.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 08:30:53 PM
Ya OK, this thread is guaranteed to not go anywhere good.
Is that the suspected cause of the new cases or not?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 20, 2020, 08:51:46 PM
Maybe not holding illegal gatherings of above 50 people with the out of town guests not abiding by the 14 day quarantine would be a good start.
Before you call them illegal, maybe you should know that a judge threw out the rules on weddings in New York. Also maybe if the governor would follow the quarantine rules himself instead of going to a hotspot for political purposes then people would be more inclined to listen
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
Before you call them illegal, maybe you should know that a judge threw out the rules on weddings in New York. Also maybe if the governor would follow the quarantine rules himself instead of going to a hotspot for political purposes then people would be more inclined to listen
That ruling only applied to those specific weddings, neither of which were in NYC.

The quarantine requirement doesn't apply to people who passed through a state for fewer than 24 hours (such as Cuomo).
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 20, 2020, 09:08:16 PM

The quarantine requirement doesn't apply to people who passed through a state for fewer than 24 hours (such as Cuomo).

Such a loophole shows how ridiculous the whole law is..
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 09:22:33 PM
Forget about the law. What about common sense? There have been a number of weddings now in Monsey, Boro Park, and Lakewood which resulted in the virus spreading. We want to blame it on the OOTers? Fine. Stop having OOTers at local weddings! It's time to stop blaming politicians for our own stupidity.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 09:23:53 PM
Forget about the law. What about common sense? There have been a number of weddings now in Monsey, Boro Park, and Lakewood which resulted in the virus spreading. We want to blame it on the OOTers? Fine. Stop having OOTers at local weddings! It's time to stop blaming politicians for our own stupidity.
+1000
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 20, 2020, 09:25:38 PM
Forget about the law. What about common sense? There have been a number of weddings now in Monsey, Boro Park, and Lakewood which resulted in the virus spreading. We want to blame it on the OOTers? Fine. Stop having OOTers at local weddings! It's time to stop blaming politicians for our own stupidity.

Well said, my only point is that these executive orders which arenít really laws shouldnít be the barometer one way or another as to how we are acting.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 09:27:05 PM
Forget about the law. What about common sense? There have been a number of weddings now in Monsey, Boro Park, and Lakewood which resulted in the virus spreading. We want to blame it on the OOTers? Fine. Stop having OOTers at local weddings! It's time to stop blaming politicians for our own stupidity.
Nobody in those communities really care, there just trying to rationalize for all the haters on ddf. Ask most people from those places they really don't care one way or another.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 09:39:15 PM
Nobody in those communities really care, there just trying to rationalize for all the haters on ddf. Ask most people from those places they really don't care one way or another.

I think I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the Jews of NY and NJ no longer care if anyone gets the virus?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on August 20, 2020, 09:42:50 PM
We are sick and tired of these political manipulators
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on August 20, 2020, 10:02:43 PM
I think a lot of people are tired of the trade-off between being safe from a virus which likely won't affect them versus not being able to lead normal lives. Not agreeing, just explaining.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:06:39 PM
I think a lot of people are tired of the trade-off between being safe from a virus which likely won't affect kill them versus not being able to lead normal lives. Not agreeing, just explaining.

FTFY, and I don't disagree. I think people also make the mistake of confusing not dying with not being affected.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on August 20, 2020, 10:09:24 PM
FTFY, and I don't disagree. I think people also make the mistake of confusing not dying with not being affected.

I was intentionally vague with my word choice there. Flu is an awful illness but we still find people not inconveniencing themselves to get vaccinated or practice good hygiene.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:16:11 PM
I was intentionally vague with my word choice there. Flu is an awful illness but we still find people not inconveniencing themselves to get vaccinated or practice good hygiene.

While you're not wrong that people don't give the flu the respect it deserves in terms of prevention, I think you do a disservice to compare the effects of the flu to Covid. I don't think there is a single person among us who can say that they know more people who have been affected by the flu over the last 30 or 40 years than they know people who were affected by Covid over the last 5 months.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 10:18:18 PM
While you're not wrong that people don't give the flu the respect it deserves in terms of prevention, I think you do a disservice to compare the effects of the flu to Covid. I don't think there is a single person among us who can say that they know more people who have been affected by the flu over the last 30 or 40 years than they know people who were affected by Covid over the last 5 months.
We'll do anything to prevent the spread, unless it would prevent someone from Florida being able to eat their quarter chicken at a Simcha.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 10:21:28 PM
I think I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the Jews of NY and NJ no longer care if anyone gets the virus?
In the communities that are having these stories for the most part yes. Obviously in a perfect world we'd hope for no cases. But if the news is up in arms about 16 cases then they're doing quite alright for themselves.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:23:52 PM
We'll do anything to prevent the spread, unless it would prevent someone from Florida being able to eat their quarter chicken at a Simcha.

I just find the irony... well, ironic. Just these past 3 weeks, I've been invited to 4 weddings, a few lchaims, and a bunch of brissim in FL. All of the invitations were Zoom invites, because each simcha had close family and a few friends only, and always less than 40 or 50 people. If we in FL don't invite people from FL to our Simchas, why would anyone in NY/NJ invite them???
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:25:58 PM
In the communities that are having these stories for the most part yes. Obviously in a perfect world we'd hope for no cases. But if the news is up in arms about 16 cases then they're doing quite alright for themselves.

And in your opinion, at what amount of cases would they not be doing quite alright for themselves?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 10:29:44 PM
And in your opinion, at what amount of cases would they not be doing quite alright for themselves?
There's no magic number. But after 4 months of having been back to life being 100%normal, I think we can say they are just fine.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:34:05 PM
There's no magic number. But after 4 months of having been back to life being 100%normal, I think we can say they are just fine.

That wasn't anything close to an answer to what I asked. There doesn't need to be an exact number. Which of the following numbers would you say should make people uncomfortable? 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10000?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 20, 2020, 10:36:26 PM
That wasn't anything close to an answer to what I asked. There doesn't need to be an exact number. Which of the following numbers would you say should make people uncomfortable? 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10000?
I think if there was 20+ new cases on a weekly basis after a bit people would start caring a drop. Less than that definitely not.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 20, 2020, 10:40:11 PM
I think if there was 20+ new cases on a weekly basis after a bit people would start caring a drop. Less than that definitely not.

So 16 isn't something to sneeze at, it's something to keep an eye on. Nothing to freak out about, but take notice, right?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 20, 2020, 10:41:01 PM
I think if there was 20+ new cases on a weekly basis after a bit people would start caring a drop. Less than that definitely not.
If there were 16 cases from one wedding then how far off can that be? There are already numerous wedding that have been behind the vast majority of new cases. In the end these weddings will be what causes another lockdown.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on August 20, 2020, 10:48:01 PM


In the end these weddings will be what causes another lockdown.

This. In addition, if there is chas veshalom another outbreak with people hospitalized, these weddings can again become an impetus for lack of care in hospitals which led to many deaths last time Rachmana litzlan
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 20, 2020, 10:49:36 PM
If there were 16 cases from one wedding then how far off can that be? There are already numerous wedding that have been behind the vast majority of new cases. In the end these weddings will be what causes another lockdown.
We need Rabanim to collectively put a stop to this. New rule - you don't get a mesadar Kiddushin if your wedding has more than 50 or out of town guests who didn't quarantine.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on August 20, 2020, 11:26:21 PM
We need Rabanim to collectively put a stop to this. New rule - you don't get a mesadar Kiddushin if your wedding has more than 50 or out of town guests who didn't quarantine.
יותר ממה שהתינוק רוצה לינק, האם רוצה להניק....
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ckmk47 on August 21, 2020, 12:36:36 AM
Although a large gathering that includes a covid infected person has the potential to spread the disease to more people than a small wedding, I think the size of the wedding is not what we should concentrate on.
In the NY/NJ area, many have had it, perhaps most.  If we confine our guest list to locals, we're unlikely to have anyone with covid at the wedding. So noone is spreading it.
A good friend is making a wedding very soon.  I talked to her about relatives coming in from out of town.  She's thinking about politely disinviting them.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 21, 2020, 07:28:53 AM
She's thinking about politely disinviting them.

This needs to start happening wholesale. We need to wake up to the fact that things like this can have much larger implications for our local communities.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 08:03:22 AM
This needs to start happening wholesale. We need to wake up to the fact that things like this can have much larger implications for our local communities.
Considering this for the most part is the law, it's not so crazy to expect.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 21, 2020, 08:32:03 AM
Considering this for the most part is the law, it's not so crazy to expect.

Right or wrong, I don't think the legal argument is going to be what gets people to change the way things are being done.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 11:07:31 AM
That wasn't anything close to an answer to what I asked. There doesn't need to be an exact number. Which of the following numbers would you say should make people uncomfortable? 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10000?
IMO it's not a number of cases that would be cause for concern, I would be concerned if there is significant community spread. The fact that every small cluster is traced back to a source (generally a simcha) and is contained fairly quickly means we're doing just fine.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 21, 2020, 11:28:14 AM
IMO it's not a number of cases that would be cause for concern, I would be concerned if there is significant community spread. The fact that every small cluster is traced back to a source (generally a simcha) and is contained fairly quickly means we're doing just fine.
+.75 There is still the potential that there are more out there than we know about and each cluster raises the potential for that exponentially.

Either way, having the Out of towners at the weddings and them passing it to locals, even if it is only those at the wedding, is not at all okay.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
+.75 There is still the potential that there are more out there than we know about and each cluster raises the potential for that exponentially.

Either way, having the Out of towners at the weddings and them passing it to locals, even if it is only those at the wedding, is not at all okay.
The question about spread is obviously how quickly and reliably people are getting tested, quarantining, and contact tracing.

If someone is going to an indoor minyan without masks and distancing days after a wedding, this could get bad very fast.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 21, 2020, 11:31:45 AM
The question about spread is obviously how quickly and reliably people are getting tested, quarantining, and contact tracing.

If someone is going to an indoor minyan without masks and distancing days after a wedding, this could get bad very fast.
Not really, enough people had it that none of these things spread.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 11:36:28 AM
Not really, enough people had it that none of these things spread.
That's debatable. Let's say 40% had it. What that means is introducing community spread is harder, but once it's there, it's not as big of a factor if 1 spreader goes to shul where half didn't get it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 21, 2020, 11:40:20 AM
That's debatable. Let's say 40% had it. What that means is introducing community spread is harder, but once it's there, it's not as big of a factor if 1 spreader goes to shul where half didn't get it.
I think your overblowing it. We didn't have new cases for months. Now that there's been a few isolated cases I think is 0 reason for concern and there is no reason to believe that they more then one of stories. Most schools in bp/willi/lkwd/monsey opened after pesach, life's been back to normal and now 4 months later there's a few cases.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: etech0 on August 21, 2020, 11:44:27 AM
Either way, having the Out of towners at the weddings and them passing it to locals, even if it is only those at the wedding, is not at all okay.
Maybe OOTers should get tested before coming to weddings. It won't catch everyone but hopefully a good percentage
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 12:25:13 PM

If someone is going to an indoor minyan without masks and distancing days after a wedding, this could get bad very fast.
This has been happening for months with no evidence of community spread caused by it. If something changes all bets are off, but for the time being it looks like we're ok.
Maybe OOTers should get tested before coming to weddings. It won't catch everyone but hopefully a good percentage
This is a good idea, I think if rapid testing was more easily available it would be easier to implement.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: etech0 on August 21, 2020, 12:28:21 PM
if rapid testing was more easily available it would be easier to implement.
+1
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 12:29:21 PM
+1
There are already rules around this being ignored.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 12:58:40 PM
+.75 There is still the potential that there are more out there than we know about and each cluster raises the potential for that exponentially.
It's possible, but there is no way it can spread silently for anywhere near as long as it did by March. While people aren't running to get tested every time they cough, the first thing people assume is COVID. Case in point, I got tested last week due to mild symptoms, it turned out to be strep.
Quote
Either way, having the Out of towners at the weddings and them passing it to locals, even if it is only those at the wedding, is not at all okay.
It's not ok, but it's a relatively minor issue for as long as it doesn't lead to community spread.
There are already rules around this being ignored.
For example? People are much more likely to ignore 2 week quarantine rules than get a rapid COVID test and be on your way in an hour.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 21, 2020, 01:01:19 PM
It's possible, but there is no way it can spread silently for anywhere near as long as it did by March. While people aren't running to get tested every time they cough, the first thing people assume is COVID. Case in point, I got tested last week due to mild symptoms, it turned out to be strep. It's not ok, but it's a relatively minor issue for as long as it doesn't lead to community spread. For example? People are much more likely to ignore 2 week quarantine rules than get a rapid COVID test and be on your way in an hour.
You feel that is more that a +.75?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 01:13:54 PM
It's possible, but there is no way it can spread silently for anywhere near as long as it did by March. While people aren't running to get tested every time they cough, the first thing people assume is COVID. Case in point, I got tested last week due to mild symptoms, it turned out to be strep. It's not ok, but it's a relatively minor issue for as long as it doesn't lead to community spread. For example? People are much more likely to ignore 2 week quarantine rules than get a rapid COVID test and be on your way in an hour.
The 2 week quarantine is the law. Whether people don't think it's right, or whether people disobey since there are no consequences doesn't make it right. Baal Simchas shouldn't invite out of towners without it being contingent on quarantining. If rapid testing were a valid exemption to quarantine, it would be. It is not.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 21, 2020, 01:18:44 PM
The 2 week quarantine is the law. Whether people don't think it's right, or whether people disobey since there are no consequences doesn't make it right. Baal Simchas shouldn't invite out of towners without it being contingent on quarantining. If rapid testing were a valid exemption to quarantine, it would be. It is not.
Maybe, but that argument is not going to get you far at this point.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 21, 2020, 01:21:33 PM
Maybe, but that argument is not going to get you far at this point.

In your opinion, is there any halachic basis to ignore the EO when coming in for a simcha?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 01:22:06 PM
You feel that is more that a +.75?
I said what I said because I believe it's correct, I see your point of view and you're entitled to disagree.
The 2 week quarantine is the law. Whether people don't think it's right, or whether people disobey since there are no consequences doesn't make it right. Baal Simchas shouldn't invite out of towners without it being contingent on quarantining. If rapid testing were a valid exemption to quarantine, it would be. It is not.
We can either be technical or practical, the fact is people will do what they feel is right regardless of what the law says. Your average person isn't quarantining for 2 weeks because the law says so. If you want to detect most of the OOT guests with COVID, rapid tests when they arrive will do that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 01:22:50 PM
In your opinion, is there any halachic basis to ignore the EO when coming in for a simcha?
Does dina d'malchusa apply to political whims?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 21, 2020, 01:23:37 PM
Does dina d'malchusa apply to political whims?

Does it not? Since when are laws not the product of political whims?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 21, 2020, 01:31:23 PM
Does dina d'malchusa apply to political whims?
Florida did it to NY. This isn't as political as you want it to be.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 21, 2020, 01:39:46 PM
Florida did it to NY. This isn't as political as you want it to be.
95% of COVID laws are political, if you want you can start getting technical about which ones are justified.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 21, 2020, 01:44:41 PM
95% of COVID laws are political, if you want you can start getting technical about which ones are justified.

FTFY, and right back at ya...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: KSMH on August 21, 2020, 06:22:18 PM
95% of COVID laws are political, if you want you can start getting technical about which ones are justified.
Closer to 99%.

It's like the old lady I saw today on the highway, even though, herself in the car for a long period was faithfully wearing her mask [and had 2 hands on the steering wheel].
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 24, 2020, 12:51:20 PM
I live in an OOT community and have a son getting married this week in NYC.

The idea of rabbonim forbidding OOT's from attending a NY wedding is laughable. First, the Tristate rabbonim (yeshivish circles) have moved on. The only potential incentive for them to prevent OOT from attending would be if they believed it was halachically warranted AND it was protecting the NY-area residents. Certainly once the initial wave passed, many Rabbonim did not believe it was halachically warranted to shut down or limit communal life.  Adding to that, Tristate-area frum circles have achieved herd immunity (whether real or imagined, practically it is the same). Secondly, the number of OOT that will actually attend is very limited even without the Rabbonim getting involved, at least in our case and all those I have spoken to that are in our shoes. A large percentage of friends and older family members from OOT are regrettably (not a Covid editorial, but personally) not going to be attending. The majority of the OOT attendees will be the friends of the chason and kallah and they have been to countless weddings in the last 3 months and have been in camps and yeshivos without recent infections, so are unlikely to be newly infected. Third, law or not, people are traveling to/from NY for business, pleasure, family, etc. from OOT for multiple days and the quarantine laws are just not relevant. It is hypocritical that the law becomes a factor for Tristate weddings and not for other 'illegal' travel.

The fact is, as stated by by several commentors, those returning from weddings that are newly infected have not lead to known community spread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, that OOT weddings are not leading to detectable community transmission. 
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 03:35:05 PM
I live in an OOT community and have a son getting married this week in NYC.

The idea of rabbonim forbidding OOT's from attending a NY wedding is laughable. First, the Tristate rabbonim (yeshivish circles) have moved on. The only potential incentive for them to prevent OOT from attending would be if they believed it was halachically warranted AND it was protecting the NY-area residents. Certainly once the initial wave passed, many Rabbonim did not believe it was halachically warranted to shut down or limit communal life.  Adding to that, Tristate-area frum circles have achieved herd immunity (whether real or imagined, practically it is the same). Secondly, the number of OOT that will actually attend is very limited even without the Rabbonim getting involved, at least in our case and all those I have spoken to that are in our shoes. A large percentage of friends and older family members from OOT are regrettably (not a Covid editorial, but personally) not going to be attending. The majority of the OOT attendees will be the friends of the chason and kallah and they have been to countless weddings in the last 3 months and have been in camps and yeshivos without recent infections, so are unlikely to be newly infected. Third, law or not, people are traveling to/from NY for business, pleasure, family, etc. from OOT for multiple days and the quarantine laws are just not relevant. It is hypocritical that the law becomes a factor for Tristate weddings and not for other 'illegal' travel.

The fact is, as stated by by several commentors, those returning from weddings that are newly infected have not lead to known community spread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, that OOT weddings are not leading to detectable community transmission.
What about all of the people who caught at the wedding? Do they not count? Why does it need to be community spread to be problematic?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ckmk47 on August 24, 2020, 03:41:00 PM
I live in an OOT community and have a son getting married this week in NYC.


The fact is, as stated by by several commentors, those returning from weddings that are newly infected have not lead to known community spread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, that OOT weddings are not leading to detectable community transmission.
It depends on which community people are coming from.  Some areas are 'hot spots', some have had it blow through.  The majority are seeing continued cases, so anyone who hasn't already had it is at risk of having just caught it and then bringing it with them to NY.


Mazal tov and much nachas from your son and the whole family.
But please, anyone who might have recently caught it, please take a covid test.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 04:27:33 PM
I live in an OOT community and have a son getting married this week in NYC.

The idea of rabbonim forbidding OOT's from attending a NY wedding is laughable. First, the Tristate rabbonim (yeshivish circles) have moved on. The only potential incentive for them to prevent OOT from attending would be if they believed it was halachically warranted AND it was protecting the NY-area residents. Certainly once the initial wave passed, many Rabbonim did not believe it was halachically warranted to shut down or limit communal life.  Adding to that, Tristate-area frum circles have achieved herd immunity (whether real or imagined, practically it is the same). Secondly, the number of OOT that will actually attend is very limited even without the Rabbonim getting involved, at least in our case and all those I have spoken to that are in our shoes. A large percentage of friends and older family members from OOT are regrettably (not a Covid editorial, but personally) not going to be attending. The majority of the OOT attendees will be the friends of the chason and kallah and they have been to countless weddings in the last 3 months and have been in camps and yeshivos without recent infections, so are unlikely to be newly infected. Third, law or not, people are traveling to/from NY for business, pleasure, family, etc. from OOT for multiple days and the quarantine laws are just not relevant. It is hypocritical that the law becomes a factor for Tristate weddings and not for other 'illegal' travel.

The fact is, as stated by by several commentors, those returning from weddings that are newly infected have not lead to known community spread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, that OOT weddings are not leading to detectable community transmission.
The main stream Rabbonim have moved on and don't care about OOT people coming or any of this. Herd immunity or not they've moved on. Mazel tov
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 04:32:28 PM
Maybe I'm missing something. Are there any doctors who are ok with this that these Rabbonim are comfortable saying it's ok to move on like everything is normal?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 04:35:42 PM
The main stream Rabbonim have moved on and don't care about OOT people coming or any of this. Herd immunity or not they've moved on. Mazel tov
What would be the reasoning behind this if true? Who are these "main stream Rabbonim"? But what is going to be when there are 20 cases a week? You advocated going back into lockdown and i don't want to need to do that..
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 04:38:30 PM
Sorry, not following quarantine laws is extremely selfish and at a minimum is illegal. I'm not a posek, but I know around the MO community, it's completely assur to break it.

If someone is going to break it anyway, they should wear an N95 at all times, not eat or drink near anyone, and maintain 6 feet distance. Even testing isn't reliable as it could still be in incubation period but still contagious.

The only exception to quarantine that I'm aware of is business travel for less than 24 hours. I don't think it's that big of a stretch to say being at a wedding, where people will likely be eating, dancing in close proximity, posing for pictures, as well as being in crowds of 50 people (if we're lucky and people follow that law) is far more likely to lead to spread vs. a business meeting.

There's a simple work around to attend a Simcha in compliance - quarantine for 14 days!

Someone mentioned that the weddings are fine when they were linked to 16 cases in BP. Just curious what's the death toll we're OK with on this is? If only 1 person dies from being exposed to an OOT person who broke the law, are we OK with that? Where's the cutoff?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 04:50:44 PM
If someone is going to break it anyway, they should wear an N95 at all times,

Does N95 make a difference in spread to others over any other type of mask?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 04:52:03 PM
There's a simple work around to attend a Simcha in compliance - quarantine for 14 days!
Is this supposed to be a joke?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 04:53:57 PM
Is this supposed to be a joke?
No, it's not. If the Simcha is too important to attend over Zoom, figure it out without putting others at risk.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 04:54:44 PM
Does N95 make a difference in spread to others over any other type of mask?
That's what they say... Better than some of the cloth types, but the N95 is laav dafka. Just get a very good mask.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on August 24, 2020, 04:55:25 PM
I live in an OOT community and have a son getting married this week in NYC.

The idea of rabbonim forbidding OOT's from attending a NY wedding is laughable. First, the Tristate rabbonim (yeshivish circles) have moved on. The only potential incentive for them to prevent OOT from attending would be if they believed it was halachically warranted AND it was protecting the NY-area residents. Certainly once the initial wave passed, many Rabbonim did not believe it was halachically warranted to shut down or limit communal life.  Adding to that, Tristate-area frum circles have achieved herd immunity (whether real or imagined, practically it is the same). Secondly, the number of OOT that will actually attend is very limited even without the Rabbonim getting involved, at least in our case and all those I have spoken to that are in our shoes. A large percentage of friends and older family members from OOT are regrettably (not a Covid editorial, but personally) not going to be attending. The majority of the OOT attendees will be the friends of the chason and kallah and they have been to countless weddings in the last 3 months and have been in camps and yeshivos without recent infections, so are unlikely to be newly infected. Third, law or not, people are traveling to/from NY for business, pleasure, family, etc. from OOT for multiple days and the quarantine laws are just not relevant. It is hypocritical that the law becomes a factor for Tristate weddings and not for other 'illegal' travel.

The fact is, as stated by by several commentors, those returning from weddings that are newly infected have not lead to known community spread. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, that OOT weddings are not leading to detectable community transmission.
Camps without recent infections? There have been multiple campers returning home and testing positive. Another mesivta bochur in Lakewood from a large yeshivish camp was symptomatic and tested positive yesterday. This after the camp emailed the parents about another boy who tested positive as well.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 04:55:58 PM
No, it's not. If the Simcha is too important to attend over Zoom, figure it out without putting others at risk.
The fact that you can call 14 day quarantine simple shows how unrealistic you're being.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:00:27 PM
The fact that you can call 14 day quarantine simple shows how unrealistic you're being.

Just because something is extremely inconvenient, that doesn't make it unrealistic.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:03:20 PM
Just because something is extremely inconvenient, that doesn't make it unrealistic.
Anyone calling 14 day quarantine simple is unrealistic.

ETA: If you say "while it's extremely inconvenient, the only way to keep everyone safe is to quarantine for 14 days" we can discuss it, if you can't acknowledge the difficulty of 14 day quarantine you're not being realistic. Unlike some other people here, I find your posts to generally be realistic even when I disagree.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:07:20 PM
Anyone calling 14 day quarantine simple is unrealistic.

I've done it a bunch of times now. It's really not that complicated. It's a pain in the rear, but it is fairly simple.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:07:46 PM


Sorry, not following quarantine laws is extremely selfish and at a minimum is illegal. I'm not a posek, but I know around the MO community, it's completely assur to break it.


This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:07:53 PM
Anyone calling 14 day quarantine simple is unrealistic.
You can do a quarantine realistically.
We travelled to NY from the holy land, we weren't required by law to quarantine. However, we felt it irresponsible not to.
We didn't stay indoors for two weeks (like we have back in EY, but that's another story). We went outdoors, ate on shabbos with family outdoors. Went bike riding. Went to non-packed parks, etc.
I just don't get it. We know that even if there is so called herd immunity, you can still infect people at the wedding. Will you be able to live with yourself if one of those people die?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:09:31 PM
No, it's not. If the Simcha is too important to attend over Zoom, figure it out without putting others at risk.
Calling every person traveling a risk is exactly why we won't have any more restrictions in regular frum communities. Get real.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:10:00 PM
I've done it a bunch of times now. It's really not that complicated. It's a pain in the rear, but it is fairly simple.
I don't know you're personal situation, but for most people the complications that arise from a 14 day quarantine are definitely not simple.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:10:21 PM
Calling every person traveling a risk is exactly why we won't have any more restrictions in regular frum communities. Get real.
You don't think people coming from hotspots are a risk?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
You don't think people coming from hotspots are a risk?
Nope. Cdc even took off the requirement for isolating for 14 days after travel and just says people should be careful.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:12:50 PM
Nope. Cdc even took off the requirement for isolating for 14 days after travel and just says people should be careful.
So then why are there infections stemming from weddings, with locals being infected by OOTers? What do you mean by not a risk? I'm confused
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
Nope. Cdc even took off the requirement for isolating for 14 days after travel and just says people should be careful.

The CDC is assuming that people are keeping the other precautions, such as social distancing, not gathering in large groups, and wearing a mask.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:15:04 PM
You can do a quarantine realistically.
We travelled to NY from the holy land, we weren't required by law to quarantine. However, we felt it irresponsible not to.
We didn't stay indoors for two weeks (like we have back in EY, but that's another story). We went outdoors, ate on shabbos with family outdoors. Went bike riding. Went to non-packed parks, etc.
I just don't get it. We know that even if there is so called herd immunity, you can still infect people at the wedding. Will you be able to live with yourself if one of those people die?
Unfortunately, that's not what a 14 day quarantine is.

The quarantine would allow you to go outside on to your property and leave for urgent  medical reasons, that's it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:15:30 PM

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
I'm inspired by our commitment to Pikuach Nefesh.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:16:08 PM

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
Speaking of which... a colleague of mine flew 2  weeks ago from California to ny. He's in Healthcare so he does need to quarantine per new york quarantine law. Anyhow he went to a Modox shul on his 14th day being in NY, and got an aliyah. After he walked away ome of the board members yelled at him that he's putting everyone in danger by coming to shul. So embarrassing people in public is fine if they don't follow rules how you like it. Point is, this would never happen in a Normal frum shul and its really insane how messed up people have gotten from this covid thing. Its very sad.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
So then why are there infections stemming from weddings, with locals being infected by OOTers? What do you mean by not a risk? I'm confused
There were some isolated incidents that are just being blown out of proportion here. There are dozens of weddings with hundreds of people every night and we never hear stories. Few people here and there does not warrant everyone being called a risk.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:18:19 PM
Unfortunately, that's not what a 14 day quarantine is.

The quarantine would allow you to go outside on to your property and leave for urgent  medical reasons, that's it.
Like I said, I wasn't legally mandated to quarantine.

And attitudes like this, not understanding risk levels are what lead people to take no restrictions
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:19:21 PM
There were some isolated incidents that are just being blown out of proportion here. There are dozens of weddings with hundreds of people every night and we never hear stories. Few people here and there does not warrant everyone being called a risk.
So how do you define who is at risk? Or are we just OK with some people getting sick and maybe some people dying? Because Corona is over and that's the price we pay for living our normal lives?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:21:16 PM
So how do you define who is at risk? Or are we just OK with some people getting sick and maybe some people dying? Because Corona is over and that's the price we pay for living our normal lives?
I'm sure you know numerous people who have died recently of covid.... In NY.  This isn't march anymore, they have more treatments and fact is far less people are dying. Get real. Every infected person isn't dropping dead now like they were then.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:21:37 PM


Like I said, I wasn't legally mandated to quarantine.

And attitudes like this, not understanding risk levels are what lead people to take no restrictions

I understand you weren't required to. I'm just saying that it is not a fair comparison to a legally mandated one.

I don't look at quarantine as a risk mitigation strategy - I look at it as a Lo Plug. If everyone comes up with a reason why they don't hav to follow it, then the whole thing breaks down.

Same attitude that lead to the spikes in FL/TX etc in the first place.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:27:42 PM
I don't know you're personal situation, but for most people the complications that arise from a 14 day quarantine are definitely not simple.

I think we're getting lost in semantics. The point is, people from OOT should not be coming in for simchos. If they feel it's important enough that they need to be there in person, there are remedies available to allow that to happen. Just because those remedies are difficult doesn't mean we should discard them and do as we please.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:29:59 PM
I think we're getting lost in semantics. The point is, people from OOT should not be coming in for simchos. If they feel it's important enough that they need to be there in person, there are remedies available to allow that to happen. Just because those remedies are difficult doesn't mean we should discard them and do as we please.
+100
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on August 24, 2020, 05:31:54 PM
I'm inspired by our commitment to Pikuach Nefesh.
Safek pikuach nefesh?

https://mishpacha.com/where-life-comes-from/
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRTdFxhF/A08823-A0-E56-F-4104-A8-CA-8-B51-D76-D0-CA3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:33:03 PM
You don't think people coming from hotspots are a risk?
Most of the areas on the quarantine lists aren't hotspots, some of the states on the list aren't hotspots but fall within the parameters and even in the states that are, there are many areas with a very low number of infections but because they happen to be part off the same state they're automatically included.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:33:51 PM
I'm sure you know numerous people who have died recently of covid.... In NY.  This isn't march anymore, they have more treatments and fact is far less people are dying. Get real. Every infected person isn't dropping dead now like they were then.
I'm confused. They have treatements in NY but not in other locations?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:34:41 PM
Safek pikuach nefesh?

https://mishpacha.com/where-life-comes-from/
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRTdFxhF/A08823-A0-E56-F-4104-A8-CA-8-B51-D76-D0-CA3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
We know that social distancing saves lives. This isn't really in dispute. The point is whether a seemingly onerous requirement is required. The answer is to follow the law as well as medical experts.

Also, the sugya is far more complicated as many times we DO treat a Safek P"N like a Vadai, but that's beyond the scope.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:34:46 PM
I'm sure you know numerous people who have died recently of covid.... In NY.  This isn't march anymore, they have more treatments and fact is far less people are dying. Get real. Every infected person isn't dropping dead now like they were then.

In the last 3 weeks, 2 of my friends buried their fathers. No, this wasn't in NY. The point is, people still do die from Covid, and the more people we allow to get infected, the greater the chances are that some will die.

You don't need to look very far to see infections that have happened at simchos. No, it was not "just a few." There have been cases every week since Tisha B'Av, and there were cases before the 3 weeks, as well. The more this happens, the more likely it is that locals get infected (see @Mikeoracle's frustrating personal account, and the resulting further spread within the local community). Dismissing it because we just can't be bothered is wrong, and I have yet to see any halachic basis for it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:34:53 PM
Most of the areas on the quarantine lists aren't hotspots, some of the states on the list aren't hotspots but fall within the parameters and even in the states that are, there are many areas with a very low number of infections but because they happen to be part off the same state they're automatically included.
That may be true. So should we therefore say everyone is welcome? Or should we make an actual determination of where is there risk and take necessary precautions for those?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:36:58 PM
So how do you define who is at risk? Or are we just OK with some people getting sick and maybe some people dying? Because Corona is over and that's the price we pay for living our normal lives?
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:37:09 PM
I'm confused. They have treatements in NY but not in other locations?
Call it what you'd like. People aren't nearly as sick as they used to be and aren't dying like they used to in NY. Can't speak for other places.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on August 24, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
Call it what you'd like. People aren't nearly as sick as they used to be and aren't dying like they used to in NY. Can't speak for other places.
LOL
I get it. Basically whatever the answer needs to be that you aren't inconvenienced
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:39:46 PM
LOL
I get it. Basically whatever the answer needs to be that you aren't inconvenienced
I know people who got sick then and now. You can't deny that in March people were dying from one second to the next and now that just isn't the case.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:40:06 PM
In the last 3 weeks, 2 of my friends buried their fathers. No, this wasn't in NY. The point is, people still do die from Covid, and the more people we allow to get infected, the greater the chances are that some will die.

You don't need to look very far to see infections that have happened at simchos. No, it was not "just a few." There have been cases every week since Tisha B'Av, and there were cases before the 3 weeks, as well. The more this happens, the more likely it is that locals get infected (see @Mikeoracle's frustrating personal account, and the resulting community spread). Dismissing it because we just can't be bothered is wrong, and I have yet to see any halachic basis for it.
CMIIW, but I don't think that's called community spread, community spread is when people get it by going about their daily life without knowing where it came from.
That may be true. So should we therefore say everyone is welcome? Or should we make an actual determination of where is there risk and take necessary precautions for those?
Broad restrictions lead to broad non compliance.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:42:40 PM
In the last 3 weeks, 2 of my friends buried their fathers. No, this wasn't in NY. The point is, people still do die from Covid, and the more people we allow to get infected, the greater the chances are that some will die.

You don't need to look very far to see infections that have happened at simchos. No, it was not "just a few." There have been cases every week since Tisha B'Av, and there were cases before the 3 weeks, as well. The more this happens, the more likely it is that locals get infected (see @Mikeoracle's frustrating personal account, and the resulting community spread). Dismissing it because we just can't be bothered is wrong, and I have yet to see any halachic basis for it.
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:44:35 PM
CMIIW, but I don't think that's called community spread

You're right. Edited to reflect that I meant spread to locals within the community.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:46:54 PM
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.
The car analogy is still bad. But I'll play along:

We put traffic lights at  busy intersections to save lives. Imagine if everyone who got to a red light got to decide whether or not they thought it was safe to proceed. Sure, most of the time, people would guess right. But all it takes is 1 time for someone to guess wrong for it to be bad.

The 14 day quarantine is a traffic light. Individuals don't get to decide if it applies to them or not.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 05:47:41 PM
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.
There are poskim who disagree. What I don't understand is why the Dina DeMalchusa element isn't getting more consideration.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:48:10 PM
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.

I have yet to see a posek put in writing any halachic basis for not needing to take precautions or listen to EOs or medical directives. All I've seen is people doing what they want to do, when they want to do it, and blaming it on whatever boich svara or nameless posek is convenient to them at the moment.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:49:25 PM


. All I've seen is people doing what they want to do, when they want to do it, and blaming it on whatever boich svara or nameless posek is convenient to them at the moment.

Can you reuse my own line on me? Is that even legal? Like breaking quarantine
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:49:39 PM
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.

And yet we still implement rules, like stop signs, traffic lights, speed limits, and no drinking or texting while driving. Have a wedding, drive a car. Take precautions and follow the rules.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:50:56 PM

Can you reuse my own line on me? Is that even legal? Like breaking quarantine

In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 24, 2020, 05:51:23 PM

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 05:52:38 PM

Thats because of no tachnun. Not necessarily because that's the nussach everyone there davens.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 24, 2020, 05:53:12 PM

Yeshivish doesn't daven sfard
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 05:54:07 PM
The wholesale bashing of other Jewish communities and hashkafos is unnecessary and uncalled for. It serves no purpose.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 24, 2020, 05:56:07 PM
There are poskim who disagree. What I don't understand is why the Dina DeMalchusa element isn't getting more consideration.
In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
Does it say anywhere in Daled Chelkei Shulchan Aruch anything implying Dina D'Malchusa besides regarding to money matters?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 06:07:48 PM
Does it saw anywhere in Daled Chelkei Shulchan Aruch anything implying Dina D'Malchusa besides regarding to money matters?

Sorry, I'll be the first to admit I'm no talmid chacham. If you're saying that we are under no obligation to follow the law of our secular governments in areas that are not monetary, please educate me. This is the first I'm hearing of such a concept.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 24, 2020, 06:13:31 PM
Sorry, I'll be the first to admit I'm no talmid chacham. If you're saying that we are under no obligation to follow the law of our secular governments in areas that are not monetary, please educate me. This is the first I'm hearing of such a concept.
There is a concept of הוה מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות, שאלמלא, איש את רעהו חיים בלעו. but the whole Halacha of Dina D'Malchusa comes from the concept of eminent domain (Not exactly that concept, but similar, as the king has the right to take all your $ so he has the right to make laws about them), and that would only apply to monetary matters (Machlokes if Karka and Metaltilim or only 1 of them).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting at all into the discussion how we should go on in life, I'm just bringing up a point that all discussions regarding Dina D'Malchusa are not relevant, If you want to go into Pikuach Nefesh or Safek Pikuach nefesh that's another discussion.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 24, 2020, 06:14:33 PM
The wholesale bashing of other Jewish communities and hashkafos is unnecessary and uncalled for. It serves no purpose.
Agreed. But the bulk of these arguments are because of these differences in hashkafa. My line about Otisville comes from a feature, not a bug. I'm not bashing, it's reality; and explains why these debates here about the laws just go in circles.

They're different universes. @yaakov35 is correct.

(Reposting because I mistakenly deleted.)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 06:25:21 PM
What I'm getting out of this is that it's important for everyone ELSE to keep up the restrictions so that peoplevwho wish can do whatever they want.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 24, 2020, 06:49:36 PM
What I'm getting out of this is that it's important for everyone ELSE to keep up the restrictions so that peoplevwho wish can do whatever they want.
Whoís everyone else?
When should these restrictions end?
NY has had under 1 percent test positive for over 2 weeks and yet there is no end in sight to these crazy restrictions.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 07:06:20 PM
Whoís everyone else?
When should these restrictions end?
NY has had under 1 percent test positive for over 2 weeks and yet there is no end in sight to these crazy restrictions.
If only the city was doing something to ensure that the infection rate remains low. Drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 24, 2020, 07:31:10 PM
If only the city was doing something to ensure that the infection rate remains low. Drawing a blank.
But again. Whatís the endgame with all of this?

People arenít listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 24, 2020, 07:31:36 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3F041sr/A7164-E2-D-3-E2-C-4401-8-FEA-C25-B40-E146-A7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/87dLFpN5)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 24, 2020, 08:03:14 PM
But again. Whatís the endgame with all of this?

People arenít listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 08:03:56 PM
There is a concept of הוה מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות, שאלמלא, איש את רעהו חיים בלעו. but the whole Halacha of Dina D'Malchusa comes from the concept of eminent domain (Not exactly that concept, but similar, as the king has the right to take all your $ so he has the right to make laws about them), and that would only apply to monetary matters (Machlokes if Karka and Metaltilim or only 1 of them).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting at all into the discussion how we should go on in life, I'm just bringing up a point that all discussions regarding Dina D'Malchusa are not relevant, If you want to go into Pikuach Nefesh or Safek Pikuach nefesh that's another discussion.

Interesting. So in your opinion, Dina D'Malchusa is only relevant to monetary issues and does not apply to any other laws?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 24, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Interesting. So in your opinion, Dina D'Malchusa is only relevant to monetary issues and does not apply to any other laws?
It's not my opinion, Look in the Gemara Rishhonim, Shulchan Aruch etc. That's all where it is discussed....

Not saying that someone shouldn't listen to the law, but this Halacha is not relevant..
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 08:13:38 PM
But again. Whatís the endgame with all of this?

People arenít listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?

No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the ones imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the amount of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 08:16:14 PM
It's not my opinion, Look in the Gemara Rishhonim, Shulchan Aruch etc. That's all where it is discussed....

Not saying that someone shouldn't listen to the law, but this Halacha is not relevant..

Ok, but I asked if there is any halachic basis to ignore the EO. Is there?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 24, 2020, 08:16:46 PM
No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the one imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the about of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
+1
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 24, 2020, 08:17:52 PM
Ok, but I asked if there is any halachic basis to ignore the EO. Is there?
What Halachic basis is there to have to listen a a EO?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 24, 2020, 08:19:09 PM
what Halachic basis is there to have to listen a a EO?

Are you saying there's no basis in halacha for having to follow the laws of a secular government when they don't contradict halacha?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on August 24, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.
So therefore we have to have 50 person weddings and canít sit inside a restaurant?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 24, 2020, 08:26:50 PM
Are you saying there's no basis in halacha for having to follow the laws of a secular government when they don't contradict halacha?
Besides using common sense when needed, and besides monetary matters, what Halacha should apply to that?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on August 24, 2020, 08:31:17 PM
No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the ones imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the amount of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
Ok so what is the new evolving philosophy? Is the point in keeping the cases low (assuming the curve will be flattened regardless) to delay the inevitable, or is it to buy time until a vaccine can eradicate covid, something that is looking somewhat unlikely at the moment? The cost benefit of shuttering or stifling the economy, schools, etc. was a far more powerful argument when the goal was to flatten the curve that would otherwise swallow up our healthcare system and kill millions. It is a much harder argument to make now that the goals have shifted.

That does not mean that we should throw all caution on to the wind.
At least some of the common sense precautions you mentioned are minimally invasive and should be given consideration, especially when it comes to weddings where there has been spread in the past few weeks but the
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 24, 2020, 08:34:43 PM
Ok so what is the new evolving philosophy? Is the point in keeping the cases low (assuming the curve will be flattened regardless) to delay the inevitable, or is it to buy time until a vaccine can eradicate covid, something that is looking somewhat unlikely at the moment? The cost benefit of shuttering or stifling the economy, schools, etc. is a far more powerful argument when the goal was to flatten the curve that would otherwise swallow up our healthcare system and kill millions. It is a much harder argument to make now that the goals have shifted.
Wearing masks and limiting indoor gatherings stifles the economy?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on August 24, 2020, 08:39:25 PM
Wearing masks and limiting indoor gatherings stifles the economy?
I was addressing the government mandated regulations. I misread your post. sorry
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: gozalim on August 24, 2020, 10:15:39 PM
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.
so a couple of deaths is OK
by car or by covid
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: drosenberg88429 on August 24, 2020, 10:21:11 PM
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.

99% of automobile fatalities are due to human error. This is why there are extensive traffic laws-to minimize these automotive deaths. The same applies to covid - due diligence should be applied to ensure that as many deaths as possible are avoided and not caused by human negligence. (I'm not going into the numbers of annual deaths per driven mile-it's a moot point.) "Normalcy" is not the goal - preserving human life is.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 24, 2020, 10:55:05 PM
If wearing a mask and social distancing can save lives what is the downside? Being uncomfortable for a short period of time? And if it turns out that it doesn't really help, what have you lost?

There is an uptick in cases in the Frum communities in the Tri-State area. If we wait till we know that there is a spike and it is spreading like it was in March and April WE ARE TOO LATE. The only way to prevent the virus from spreading again is to act now before it gets out of control.

In my neighborhood Wal-Mart, Target, Shoprite etc...   almost 100% mask compliance by the non-jews, walk into a Shul not a mask to be seen. For hundreds of years jews have been blamed for pandemics and for spreading disease, based on the way certain segments of the Frum communities are behaving maybe there are right.

Grow up, stop acting like a selfish spoiled child and put on a mask if for no other reason than that is what the rest of society is doing.       
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 24, 2020, 11:20:35 PM
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:24:11 PM

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
That is why? Got it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:26:43 PM
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.
Dunno, the charts for places like FL compared to NY/NJ look almost exactly like the charts everyone was using to illustrate flattening the curve back in March.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:27:11 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3F041sr/A7164-E2-D-3-E2-C-4401-8-FEA-C25-B40-E146-A7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/87dLFpN5)
I guess they aren't mainstream.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 24, 2020, 11:27:27 PM
The 14 day quarantine in NY is a speed limit, and people do decide how they want to respond accordingly. If it isn't being enforced, is it really a law?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:28:16 PM
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh.
Can you explain how someone catching it now is any less of a sakanah for that person that it had been?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on August 24, 2020, 11:42:18 PM
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha. Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 11:49:26 PM
Can you explain how someone catching it now is any less of a sakanah for that person that it had been?
Fact is people aren't getting as sick. As to why I do not have the Answers.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:54:11 PM
Fact is people aren't getting as sick. As to why I do not have the Answers.
Maybe it has more to do with who is more out and about and going to these weddings combined with it being only specific incidents where those at most risk were not around. That would mean that to use this to totally ignore it would be the best way to make that change.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:54:47 PM
In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
I not getting involved in that
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:38 PM
Maybe it has more to do with who is more out and about and going to these weddings combined with it being only specific incidents where those at most risk were not around. That would mean that to use this to totally ignore it would be the best way to make that change.
Have you been to a wedding or shul recently? Old people are out and about. This isn't florida and only the younger demographic is getting it. Older people are also and aren't getting as sick.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 24, 2020, 11:57:42 PM
Have you been to a wedding or shul recently? Old people are out and about. This isn't florida and only the younger demographic is getting it. Older people are also and aren't getting as sick.
No weddings since i in aveilus for another 2weeks. There are many who are still not or not as much. Many are not staying for as much of the wedding as they would have.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 12:22:35 AM
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha.

Look at the wedding halls and yeshivos and you will see that thousands of Yidden in your view ďdoesnít give a hoot for someone elseís life.Ē
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on August 25, 2020, 12:36:18 AM
Look at the wedding halls and yeshivos and you will see that thousands of Yidden in your view ďdoesnít give a hoot for someone elseís life.Ē
You are correct. It is scary.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on August 25, 2020, 12:51:00 AM
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha. Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?
Straw man alert. He actually made a great point.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 25, 2020, 08:39:55 AM

 The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.


You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment. 


Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 08:46:26 AM
Dunno, the charts for places like FL compared to NY/NJ look almost exactly like the charts everyone was using to illustrate flattening the curve back in March.
The curve wasn't flat in March either.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 08:55:46 AM
The curve wasn't flat in March either.
Go transpose the charts on each other.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on August 25, 2020, 08:56:43 AM
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment.
That equation would be good if the population and lifestyles would be the same, additionally, Purim gatherings was a major spreader in NYC.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 08:57:24 AM
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment.
+1000. Also the concept of bring moser nefesh during a mageifah seems foreign to me. Is there any precedent?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 09:00:30 AM
That equation would be good if the population and lifestyles would be the same, additionally, Purim gatherings was a major spreader in NYC.
It is even more than that. It is likely that even before Purim it was too late.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 09:02:13 AM
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment. 




In addition to this https://www.queensjewishlink.com/index.php/opinion/36-message-from-r-schonfeld-r-yoel-schonfeld/2984-cancel-culture-comes-to-orthodoxy
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 09:02:49 AM
MO shuls were mostly open for purim also, though there were widespread quarantines if you were potentially exposed to even 1 case.

This caution saved lives. Period.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 09:05:54 AM
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.

If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on August 25, 2020, 09:11:11 AM
Straw man alert. He actually made a great point.
No, those were his words exactly. He believes in being Moiser Nefesh to attend a wedding in person without testing, without quarantining beforehand, and without wearing a mask or observing any semblance of social distancing, over attending a wedding over Zoom if you are from OOT.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 09:12:43 AM
If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
Also, generally Halacha demands us to be MORE cautious than the medical consensus, not less.

And back to what I was saying, there are ways suggested to mitigate the risk (outdoors, capacity limits, mask wearing, distancing, and OOT people either joining remotely or quarantining). I'm not sure you can justify disregarding them while also saying that Halacha values life over (almost) everything else.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SSLPhD on August 25, 2020, 09:32:14 AM
...
Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.
I mean it's probably the parents, but yes.

I would say that it's tough as people from OOT could quarantine or otherwise be in NY anyway. So maybe a disclaimer in the invite is appropriate.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 09:42:48 AM
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.

The responsibility lies with more than one party, and I don't intend to point fingers. The point is that the culture is dangerous.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 10:12:13 AM
Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.
I'm going to make an educated guess (based on @hllulbh1 location) that this rav is from the most highly respected poskim in America. It's obvious why such a psak isn't publicized in writing or outside the community it's intended for.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 10:25:06 AM
So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?
The sad state of our political environment leaves medical consensus and science unscathed, I think most people are very reluctant to rely on what the medical establishment is pushing. We've seen time and again the medical advice change drastically based on political motives. Another terrible effect of this will be the rise of the anti vax movement.

I have no plans to wear a mask in shul based on wishy-washy medical advice, the only thing that would change that is the rav of my shul requiring masks.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 10:31:33 AM
The sad state of our political environment leaves medical consensus and science unscathed, I think most people are very reluctant to rely on what the medical establishment is pushing. We've seen time and again the medical advice change drastically based on political motives. Another terrible effect of this will be the rise of the anti vax movement.

I have no plans to wear a mask in shul based on wishy-washy medical advice, the only thing that would change that is the rav of my shul requiring masks.
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.

If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.
1) I find masks extremely uncomfortable
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 10:39:11 AM
1) I find masks extremely uncomfortable
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
Do you wear masks in other places other than shuls?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 10:45:34 AM
If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.
Not at all. The protection of a mask is more for others.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on August 25, 2020, 10:45:44 AM
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.

If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.

Agree 100%.  You may think that you don't need a mask because you have antibodies, or because you think no one in the community is at risk, but having worn a mask for davening since May (when we restarted minyanim) I dont see a reason not to wear one.

In my community masks are required for all shul minyanim, indoors or out as well as shul approved backyard minyanim. We have been running a backyard mincha/maariv in my yard since May. Many people bring outside family for Shabbos and we have had quite a few chassidish men from BP. Everyone wears a mask, even those from communities which are mask optional.

I agree with the car analogy - if you don't get hit you may not need the seat belt, but you wear it just in case. So too here, if no one is carrying then you don't need the mask, but if even one person is asymptomatically transmitting the virus, doesn't it make sense to have protection?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on August 25, 2020, 10:46:34 AM
Not at all. The protection of a mask is more for others.

The seat belt protects more than just the person wearing it too.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 10:47:47 AM
Do you wear masks in other places other than shuls?
Non jewish stores - always
Jewish stores - when required
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 10:49:58 AM
Non jewish stores - always
Jewish stores - when required
Doesn't chillul Hashem apply even when the onlookers are Jewish? Also, even in Jewish stores, there are plenty of non Jewish workers. Just trying to understand the difference.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 10:51:25 AM
Doesn't chillul Hashem apply even when the onlookers are Jewish?
Only when you're actually doing something wrong
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 25, 2020, 10:55:29 AM
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
I think that's what the first two little piggies said about 5 minutes before they had to run to the third piggies house.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: oldguy on August 25, 2020, 11:08:15 AM
I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.
I have yet to see any Halachic basis to an EO.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 11:15:47 AM
I'm going to make an educated guess (based on @hllulbh1 location) that this rav is from the most highly respected poskim in America. It's obvious why such a psak isn't publicized in writing or outside the community it's intended for.

Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on August 25, 2020, 11:18:00 AM
If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.

I didn't go all the way back to see this and was about to reply.. but now that I see your response 👌

So doctors don't value lives while Jews do.. but Jews know more than doctors since we have a monopoly on the value of life and we are currently dictating the priorities?

He worries about zoom culture . I worry about a future generation that sees no point in following medical guidance.

Theres always some askan who knows better!

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 25, 2020, 11:28:01 AM
I think that's what the first two little piggies said about 5 minutes before they had to run to the third piggies house.
Do you have a halachic basis for that?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 25, 2020, 11:30:43 AM
Do you have a halachic basis for that?
Yes, it is in the fifth volume of the SA.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 11:34:36 AM
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.
I guess what frustrates me is that we're seemingly past the point where the governmental regulations and medical consensus (and yes, far more than 50% if doctors agree on this) are in direct conflict to the needs of living a full Jewish life.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a mask. You can work out the logistics of having socially distant minyanim in many cases or limiting weddings and preferring to have them outdoors weather permitting. It just seems that it doesn't make sense to do nothing, which is seemingly against all medical consensus.

I understand there are poskim privately saying not to worry about it, and for the life of me, I jut can't figure out the logic behind it.
I'm not
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 11:40:00 AM
Yes, it is in the fifth volume of the SA.
Is that the one which contains everything that proves whatever argument you are making at the time?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 11:41:43 AM
I have yet to see any Halachic basis to an EO.

I was raised that Dina D'Malchusa covers everything, unless it is in direct conflict with halacha. I was raised that we try to get laws we don't like changed, but we do not ignore them. You say there is no basis for this, and I'll have to verify this independently, but I have yet to see anything quoted from contemporary halacha that explicitly allows for laws to be broken or ignored if they aren't of a financial nature.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 11:41:54 AM
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.
If you were not there then you are likely missing a tremendous amount of the nuance. Was it specific to being quarantined 14 days? Was it about minyanim or attending a wedding? Was it to not wear a mask? Was it to have the total disregard and to be moiser nefesh to attend a simcha as you had written?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 11:44:10 AM

So doctors don't value lives while Jews do.. but Jews know more than doctors since we have a monopoly on the value of life and we are currently dictating the priorities?


It is not about superiority, it is about priorities. Doctors provide information and then daas Torah processes it to determine the best approach for avodas Hashem. The doctors don't have the training to process that equation.


Theres always some askan who knows better!

I am only referencing Morei Ho'raah - Rabbonim, Rebbes and Roshei Yeshiva, (i.e. daas Torah) and not "some askan".
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 11:47:02 AM
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.

My real question, and I've brought this up numerous times, is less on the attitude to ignore the EOs and more on the ignoring of medical guidance. I was brought up in a culture which put great importance on doctors. To date, virtually all directives from Chabad Rabbonim instruct people to follow the guidance of the doctors. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was adamant throughout the years about taking the advice of a " rofeh yedid." So what I struggle with most of all, and again this isn't the first time I've asked this question, is on what basis are Rabbonim telling people to ignore medical advice? This isn't about a minority of doctors, or even a 50/50 machlokes. There is a broad consensus about certain measures that should be taken, and those measures are largely being ignored in many frum communities. I don't get it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 11:52:59 AM
Was it specific to being quarantined 14 days? Was it about minyanim or attending a wedding? Was it to not wear a mask?
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 11:55:20 AM
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.

You understand that this bit of nuance is very different from what you posted regarding wholesale canceling of EOs in the name of preserving the frum culture and lifestyle, right?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on August 25, 2020, 12:02:44 PM
My real question, and I've brought this up numerous times, is less on the attitude to ignore the EOs and more on the ignoring of medical guidance. I was brought up in a culture which put great importance on doctors. To date, virtually all directives from Chabad Rabbonim instruct people to follow the guidance of the doctors. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was adamant throughout the years about taking the advice of a " rofeh yedid." So what I struggle with most of all, and again this isn't the first time I've asked this question, is on what basis are Rabbonim telling people to ignore medical advice? This isn't about a minority of doctors, or even a 50/50 machlokes. There is a broad consensus about certain measures that should be taken, and those measures are largely being ignored in many frum communities. I don't get it.
And yet the antivax/antimaskers among Anash and Shluchim seems to keep growing.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 12:04:59 PM
And yet the antivax/antimaskers among Anash and Shluchim seems to keep growing.

Yep. And I don't get any of it. They don't even have "Daas Torah" to point to as an excuse.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 12:08:17 PM
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.

And this is the source to go out of town to a wedding? Really? His psak to have more than 25 people in shul wearing masks shows this? Are you for real?

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 12:13:26 PM
And this is the source to go out of town to a wedding? Really? His psak to have more than 25 people in shul wearing masks shows this? Are you for real?
Well, this has certainly been enlightening.

Now we have a game of broken telephone over what the Daas Torah on this actually is! So I guess we have to be "Machmir" to follow no measures, lest it turn out that it was included in the Daas Torah.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 12:20:32 PM
Well, this has certainly been enlightening.

Now we have a game of broken telephone over what the Daas Torah on this actually is! So I guess we have to be "Machmir" to follow no measures, lest it turn out that it was included in the Daas Torah.
This is not broken telephone but rather saying I will do whatever I want and blame it on daas torah even though it is the polar opposite of what that daas torah is saying.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on August 25, 2020, 12:29:52 PM
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha, while I will tell everyone that this what Daas Torah said, even though that has no basis in reality.

Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?
FTFM. Just saying that going around saying that is a major chillul Hashem.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 12:32:14 PM
FTFM. Just saying that going around saying that is a major chillul Hashem.
It's not a chillul Hashem if you're not doing anything wrong, apparently.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 12:34:06 PM
And this is the source to go out of town to a wedding? Really? His psak to have more than 25 people in shul wearing masks shows this? Are you for real?

Responding to something taken out of context does not equal broken telephone.

That was NOT the context that this psak was mentioned in. There was discussion about dina d'malchusa dina being the end all and be all and this psak was mentioned to show there are definitely exceptions to the rule.

The source for out of town weddings, davening and learning without masks and social distancing is the fact that countless morei horaah, rebbes, rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are making, participating and encouraging regular weddings, learning and davening. Go to shuls and chasunah halls in Lakewood, Monroe, Monsey and Boro Park and you will see the facts on the ground. These include weddings with large contingents of travelers from OOT.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 12:37:58 PM
That was NOT the context that this psak was mentioned in. There was discussion about dina d'malchusa dina being the end all and be all and this psak was mentioned to show there are definitely exceptions to the rule.

The source for out of town weddings, davening and learning without masks and social distancing is the fact that countless morei horaah, rebbes, rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are making, participating and encouraging regular weddings, learning and davening. Go to shuls and chasunah halls in Lakewood, Monroe, Monsey and Boro Park and you will see the facts on the ground. These include weddings with large contingents of travelers from OOT.

That absolutely was the context you used but maybe that is not how you intended it. So let's get this straight, you are following the psak of your rov to wear a mask when you go to shul but for a chasuna, then you are going to ignore that same rov? Why?


This really does sound like a case of כי בשרירות לבי אלך
Title: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 25, 2020, 12:38:35 PM
The source for out of town weddings, davening and learning without masks and social distancing is the fact that countless morei horaah, rebbes, rabbonim and roshei yeshiva are making, participating and encouraging regular weddings, learning and davening. Go to shuls and chasunah halls in Lakewood, Monroe, Monsey and Boro Park and you will see the facts on the ground. These include weddings with large contingents of travelers from OOT.
Not to invoke Godwin's Law or anything, but this is eerily similar to circa 1938.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Mikes@Micro on August 25, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
I was raised that Dina D'Malchusa covers everything, unless it is in direct conflict with halacha. I was raised that we try to get laws we don't like changed, but we do not ignore them. You say there is no basis for this, and I'll have to verify this independently, but I have yet to see anything quoted from contemporary halacha that explicitly allows for laws to be broken or ignored if they aren't of a financial nature.
You were not raised with  Baltimore City Politics.  (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-charter-amendments-20200113-dbvfgkfjn5eofagb6tl43l3swi-story.html%3foutputType=amp)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 25, 2020, 12:45:00 PM
Not to invoke Godwin's Law or anything, but this is eerily similar to circa 1938.
My Shul does not require masks, so I switched to a shul that does. Judaism doesn't prevent the use of common sense. 
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 12:52:52 PM
You were not raised with  Baltimore City Politics.  (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-charter-amendments-20200113-dbvfgkfjn5eofagb6tl43l3swi-story.html%3foutputType=amp)

Yea, they are most definitely unique in their corruption.... ain davar chadash. I don't see how this changes anything, especially in the context of our current conversation.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
You were not raised with  Baltimore City Politics.  (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-charter-amendments-20200113-dbvfgkfjn5eofagb6tl43l3swi-story.html%3foutputType=amp)
These rules are city or state?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 01:13:38 PM
That absolutely was the context you used but maybe that is not how you intended it.

If that is how it was used, you are correct that is not how I intended it.


So let's get this straight, you are following the psak of your rov to wear a mask when you go to shul but for a chasuna, then you are going to ignore that same rov? Why?

This really does sound like a case of כי בשרירות לבי אלך

The shul requires masks because "when in Rome...". Several local rabbonim who require masks in their shuls did not require masks at weddings they made in the Tristate area because they believe, as many other Morei Horaah, that they are not necessary. My Rov does not believe masks are required at weddings al pi halacha.

If we required (at a chasunah in the Tristate area) masks, social distancing, quarantine or testing it would be extremely odd, as the 20 weddings in the TriState area that these same people have been to in the last month did not require them. You may call it  שרירות לבי but it is also the the norm. To quote from this week's daf yomi, puk chazi mai ama  d'bar- go out and see how the people on the outside act.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 25, 2020, 03:48:51 PM
Alaska, Arizona, Delaware, Maryland and Montana have been removed from the NY quarantine requirements.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 04:09:12 PM
In fairness, frum Baltimore does not seem to be having higher spread than NY/NJ right now and I don't see much of a reason why someone from there should need the same guidelines as someone from FL.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on August 25, 2020, 06:08:10 PM
People like to talk about how out of towners are bringing it to weddings and spreading it to out of towners there. I know first-hand about a wedding in BP where a local brought it, and spread to at least three other locals...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Mikeoracle on August 25, 2020, 07:03:20 PM
In fairness, frum Baltimore does not seem to be having higher spread than NY/NJ right now and I don't see much of a reason why someone from there should need the same guidelines as someone from FL.
This might be just anecdotal, but if you followed my posts on the other threads- I have been sick for the last 3 weeks, as well as a bunch of other family members and wedding attendees (BP wedding), which seems pretty clear that it originated with someone from Baltimore that attended the Aufruf and then tested positive. Additionally a few other families I know were infected by me before I realized that I was sick with Covid.
Just a reminder- when "they say" that people are having it much "Milder" now than back in March and April, they are mainly referring to the danger part. B"h my levels were fine, and so were most of the other people I know- but a few of us (myself included) were pretty sick for close to 3 weeks. I was barely able to function, and it was a horrible experience. In any other context we would never use the term "milder" or "not so bad"- except when compared to what was going on back then.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 25, 2020, 08:01:44 PM
This might be just anecdotal, but if you followed my posts on the other threads- I have been sick for the last 3 weeks, as well as a bunch of other family members and wedding attendees (BP wedding), which seems pretty clear that it originated with someone from Baltimore that attended the Aufruf and then tested positive. Additionally a few other families I know were infected by me before I realized that I was sick with Covid.
Just a reminder- when "they say" that people are having it much "Milder" now than back in March and April, they are mainly referring to the danger part. B"h my levels were fine, and so were most of the other people I know- but a few of us (myself included) were pretty sick for close to 3 weeks. I was barely able to function, and it was a horrible experience. In any other context we would never use the term "milder" or "not so bad"- except when compared to what was going on back then.
While in Baltimore they are blaming their cases on people at NY chasunas. https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=134304
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 08:04:21 PM
While in Baltimore they are blaming their cases on people at NY chasunas. https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=134304

I think I may have a solution...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 08:29:25 PM
I think I may have a solution...
You don't say?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 25, 2020, 08:31:07 PM
You don't say?

Shhhh.... It's a secret.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 25, 2020, 09:54:55 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/26HpCXTq/Whats-App-Image-2020-08-25-at-9-47-13-PM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0tZJjBc)


Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 25, 2020, 10:17:48 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/26HpCXTq/Whats-App-Image-2020-08-25-at-9-47-13-PM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0tZJjBc)
Sad to see Hatzalah blatantly violating Daas Torah.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 26, 2020, 12:19:01 AM
Those are your sentiments, never mine.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on August 27, 2020, 01:25:00 AM
In my neighborhood Wal-Mart, Target, Shoprite etc...   almost 100% mask compliance by the non-jews, walk into a Shul not a mask to be seen. For hundreds of years jews have been blamed for pandemics and for spreading disease, based on the way certain segments of the Frum communities are behaving maybe there are right.

Grow up, stop acting like a selfish spoiled child and put on a mask if for no other reason than that is what the rest of society is doing.     

I just can't get this. Walk into non-Jewish store, everyone is wearing a mask, besides for the super-frum lady who pretends to be born yesterday. Cashier reminds her to wear a mask, so she puts her hand near her nose and continues shopping. Seen ignorance to this degree a bunch of times already, as if "I didn't know" and "I don't have a mask" is still a good excuse 5 months later. What about chillul hashem? Derech eretz? Or simply not acting like a selfish retard in public? Just wear a damn mask, why is so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 27, 2020, 11:37:53 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/08/25/nyc-banquet-halls-hosting-large-weddings-despite-covid-19-ban/

If Daas Torah is that covid is over (even if Hatzalah disagrees), can it at least be cognizant of the giant Chillul Hash this is making?

Also, if the city can only fine $2,000 for non compliance, the halls will just factor that as a cost of doing business.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on August 27, 2020, 11:47:20 AM
I saw this story and thought it was analogous to the Covid situation.

https://abc13.com/residents-who-rode-out-hurricane-laura-are-asking-for-help/6391243/

People didn't evacuate because: It's never as bad as they forecast, because its a political ploy, because it infringes on their first amendment right, because, because, because. But now they wan't others to risk their lives to save them because they refused to heed the warnings.

People don't want to social distance or wear masks: because, because, because. But if C"V this small uptick gets out of control they will be the first to look for others to bail them out.   
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on August 27, 2020, 11:56:47 AM
I saw this story and thought it was analogous to the Covid situation.

https://abc13.com/residents-who-rode-out-hurricane-laura-are-asking-for-help/6391243/

People didn't evacuate because: It's never as bad as they forecast, because its a political ploy, because it infringes on their first amendment right, because, because, because. But now they wan't others to risk their lives to save them because they refused to heed the warnings.

People don't want to social distance or wear masks: because, because, because. But if C"V this small uptick gets out of control they will be the first to look for others to bail them out.
A hurricane coming tomorrow doesn't begin to compare to a virus that's already been around for 6 months and probably will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on August 27, 2020, 12:12:09 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/08/26/cuomo-vows-brooklyn-weddings-crackdown-if-de-blasio-does-nothing/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on August 27, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/08/25/nyc-banquet-halls-hosting-large-weddings-despite-covid-19-ban/

If Daas Torah is that covid is over (even if Hatzalah disagrees), can it at least be cognizant of the giant Chillul Hash this is making?

Also, if the city can only fine $2,000 for non compliance, the halls will just factor that as a cost of doing business.

How about their perhaps is plenty daas Torah (I think this is evident by now, seeing how many Rabbanim run their shuls in Israel) to continue life as normal. Not that covid is over, but that life continuing on takes priority.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 30, 2020, 12:35:35 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/orthodox-emt-group-hatzolah-reports-spike-in-covid-19-cases/?utm_source=whatsapp_sitebuttons
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on August 31, 2020, 04:48:21 PM
https://matzav.com/exposing-the-lies-weve-been-told-about-covid-shutting-shuls-supposed-upticks-and-more/

This is an article that provides lots of arguments against those that believe Yiddishkeit supports following the directive of doctors (and hatzalah) in response to the perceived threats of COVID as justified.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: neveryou on August 31, 2020, 05:42:05 PM
https://matzav.com/exposing-the-lies-weve-been-told-about-covid-shutting-shuls-supposed-upticks-and-more/

This is an article that provides lots of arguments against those that believe Yiddishkeit supports following the directive of doctors (and hatzalah) in response to the perceived threats of COVID as justified.
Finally some Rabonim speaking out and not blindly following the doctors who don't know and create panic porn
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 05:42:52 PM
Finally some Rabonim speaking out and not blindly following the doctors who don't know and create panic porn

Which Rabbonim are speaking out?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 31, 2020, 05:45:17 PM
Which Rabbonim are speaking out?
Person who wrote letter and singed as rabbi. That's one lol.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 05:46:11 PM
Person who wrote letter and singed as rabbi. That's one lol.

The irony of blindly following...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 31, 2020, 05:48:58 PM
https://matzav.com/exposing-the-lies-weve-been-told-about-covid-shutting-shuls-supposed-upticks-and-more/

This is an article that provides lots of arguments against those that believe Yiddishkeit supports following the directive of doctors (and hatzalah) in response to the perceived threats of COVID as justified.
Well, this is a flaming hot pile of garbage.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 31, 2020, 05:51:33 PM
Finally some Rabonim speaking out and not blindly following the doctors who don't know and create panic porn
He's a lawyer; not a practicing rabbi.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 31, 2020, 05:51:45 PM
The irony of blindly following...
Maybe the rest are mustering the courage to also write incoherent insanely long articles.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 06:08:43 PM
Finally some Rabonim speaking out and not blindly following the doctors who don't know and create panic porn

CMIIW, but it seems like you're waiting for Daas Torah to catch up and justify your currently held position.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on August 31, 2020, 08:35:33 PM
Maybe the rest are mustering the courage to also write incoherent insanely long articles.
This is my favorite post of yours ever. Going to MBM some likes.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ari3 on August 31, 2020, 09:29:13 PM
https://matzav.com/exposing-the-lies-weve-been-told-about-covid-shutting-shuls-supposed-upticks-and-more/

This is an article that provides lots of arguments against those that believe Yiddishkeit supports following the directive of doctors (and hatzalah) in response to the perceived threats of COVID as justified.
who is the author of this article? what is his position and credentials?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on August 31, 2020, 09:30:37 PM
who is the author of this article? what is his position and credentials?
E. David Smith. He's a lawyer.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on August 31, 2020, 09:37:22 PM
If there were 16 cases from one wedding then how far off can that be? There are already numerous wedding that have been behind the vast majority of new cases. In the end these weddings will be what causes another lockdown.

Lockdowns as they were back in March/Apr in the Tri-State won't happen again.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 09:40:35 PM

Lockdowns as they were back in March/Apr in the Tri-State won't happen again.

To the extreme where people are advised to stay home, you're probably right. In the ways that matter most to us, with regards to keeping our schools and shuls open... I wouldn't put money on that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ari3 on August 31, 2020, 09:42:56 PM

I see his name and I saw that post, I am asking if anyone hear has firsthand info is he someone anyone takes seriously, is he in any way a practicing rabbi, does he have any medical credentials etc. Basically is anyone here from his area with info that can enlighten us
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on August 31, 2020, 10:01:37 PM

Lockdowns as they were back in March/Apr in the Tri-State won't happen again.
To be honest, Iím fairly certain you would have said the same about the first lockdown as late as March 15 this year. Itís impossible to know what will be.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 10:07:55 PM
I see his name and I saw that post, I am asking if anyone hear has firsthand info is he someone anyone takes seriously, is he in any way a practicing rabbi, does he have any medical credentials etc. Basically is anyone here from his area with info that can enlighten us

He's a corporate lawyer with smicha. He studied philosophy and molecular biology at UC-Berkeley 30 years ago. He has no medical degree or credentials. He has written other pieces with a political or social agenda, such as advocating for gun rights. He markets himself as "E. David Smith - The Litigation King." Looking at who he addressed his letter to, he seems to be trying to get the attention of Rabbonim and askonim who are taken seriously, although he admits he didn't even try reaching out to any of them outside of this letter.

ETA: He also ran for 9th Cong. Distr. of NJ in the past.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on August 31, 2020, 10:46:17 PM
He's a corporate lawyer with smicha. He studied philosophy and molecular biology at UC-Berkeley 30 years ago. He has no medical degree or credentials. He has written other pieces with a political or social agenda, such as advocating for gun rights. He markets himself as "E. David Smith - The Litigation King." Looking at who he addressed his letter to, he seems to be trying to get the attention of Rabbonim and askonim who are taken seriously, although he admits he didn't even try reaching out to any of them outside of this letter.

ETA: He also ran for 9th Cong. Distr. of NJ in the past.
With credentials like that he should write a book about leading nj through the pandemic.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 31, 2020, 10:46:39 PM
He's a corporate lawyer with smicha. He studied philosophy and molecular biology at UC-Berkeley 30 years ago. He has no medical degree or credentials. He has written other pieces with a political or social agenda, such as advocating for gun rights. He markets himself as "E. David Smith - The Litigation King." Looking at who he addressed his letter to, he seems to be trying to get the attention of Rabbonim and askonim who are taken seriously, although he admits he didn't even try reaching out to any of them outside of this letter.

ETA: He also ran for 9th Cong. Distr. of NJ in the past.

Anecdotally, this biggest meshugana I ever met was someone with 3 PhDs and smicha. He used to complain that the planes flying out of JFK were Giuliani sending planes after him.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on August 31, 2020, 10:47:46 PM
With credentials like that he should write a book about leading nj through the pandemic.
He would do better than Murphy's law
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on August 31, 2020, 10:47:59 PM
Anecdotally, this biggest meshugana I ever met was someone with 3 PhDs and smicha. He used to complain that the planes flying out of JFK were Giuliani sending planes after him.
I didn't read that Matzav article, but just from skimming through it, this makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on August 31, 2020, 11:07:35 PM
I think itís the Nazi doctors who are chasing this guy from what I read when I skimmed the article.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on August 31, 2020, 11:24:35 PM
Sometimes it takes a special soul like this to accomplish great things. He managed to get virtually the whole DDF to agree on something! I've seen many try and fail.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 31, 2020, 11:29:07 PM
Does Matzav print everything people submit? Shouldn't some editor have done something? Even just make it coherent?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on August 31, 2020, 11:33:16 PM
Does Matzav print everything people submit? Shouldn't some editor have done something? Even just make it coherent?
It was too long for pinchas lipshitz to read, so he just posted it....
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on August 31, 2020, 11:37:29 PM
The 2 week quarantine is the law. Whether people don't think it's right, or whether people disobey since there are no consequences doesn't make it right. Baal Simchas shouldn't invite out of towners without it being contingent on quarantining. If rapid testing were a valid exemption to quarantine, it would be. It is not.
Did you know that in the state of Georgia it is illegal to carry ice cream in your back pocket on sunday.
And, in Lexington kentucky it is Illegal to carry ice cream in your back pocket any time.

I'm not making this up.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 31, 2020, 11:38:10 PM

Yes, because all laws are equal.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on August 31, 2020, 11:39:32 PM
https://www.garycjohnson.com/qa-is-it-illegal-to-carry-an-ice-cream-cone-in-your-pocket-in-kentucky/#:~:text=Sometimes%20the%20city%20of%20Lexington,ordinance%20in%20Kentucky%20forbidding%20this

Tldr - it's a myth.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on September 01, 2020, 01:23:08 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/08/30/city-councilman-rips-militia-forces-targeting-borough-park-weddings/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on September 01, 2020, 01:45:11 AM
https://www.garycjohnson.com/qa-is-it-illegal-to-carry-an-ice-cream-cone-in-your-pocket-in-kentucky/#:~:text=Sometimes%20the%20city%20of%20Lexington,ordinance%20in%20Kentucky%20forbidding%20this

Tldr - it's a myth.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/news/gmp4039/crazy-state-laws/

You are missing the point, If you need me to spell it out for you I will.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 01, 2020, 11:00:08 AM

https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=122748
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 01, 2020, 11:16:34 AM
Bobov - asking people to social distance and wear masks if they don't have antibodies
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8cjfWG/Bobov.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 01, 2020, 11:58:20 AM
With credentials like that he should write a book about leading nj through the pandemic.
ALOL

Youíre on a roll.. I continue to like your posts
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 01, 2020, 12:13:57 PM
Bobov - asking people to social distance and wear masks if they don't have antibodies
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8cjfWG/Bobov.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
They already put this out a couple of weeks ago, when the first cases started to build up.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 01, 2020, 12:23:47 PM
They already put this out a couple of weeks ago, when the first cases started to build up.

I only saw this for the first time today. When did they put this out? The legend of L'Maan Ya'arichu Yamecha could apply to a few Parshios.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on September 01, 2020, 05:24:55 PM
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=122748
At the minimum you can put a time stamp.
This is not the  riddles thread. (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=45797.0)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 01, 2020, 07:03:13 PM
At the minimum you can put a time stamp.
This is not the  riddles thread. (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=45797.0)
Stick an ice cream cone in your back pocket.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 02, 2020, 12:37:17 AM
Bobov - asking people to social distance and wear masks if they don't have antibodies
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8cjfWG/Bobov.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

When they right in English you know that they mean it
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 02, 2020, 07:25:17 PM
When they right in English you know that they mean it
Perhaps you should follow their example.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
Bobov - asking people to social distance and wear masks if they don't have antibodies
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8cjfWG/Bobov.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Ah yes, still working under the antibodies theory.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2020, 07:56:13 PM
Ah yes, still working under the antibodies theory.
What theory? The one where there are maybe 8 recorded cases of reinfection out of 25,000,000+ ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 07:56:44 PM
Ah yes, still working under the antibodies theory.
And an attitude like that is why people will just ignore these things. Ignore basic science to further an agenda of quarentine and masks.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 07:57:19 PM
What theory? The one where there are maybe 8 recorded cases of reinfection out of 25,000,000+ ?
Yep, and the "covid survivor " even tho that's like 23 million. Or more.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 08:04:54 PM
And an attitude like that is why people will just ignore these things. Ignore basic science to further an agenda of quarentine and masks.
The science on antibodies is undetermined. Telling people they don't need to be concerned because we think antibodies will protect for an unknown amount of time is bad policy. Also, laughing at the mask "agenda".
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 08:10:39 PM
The science on antibodies is undetermined. Telling people they don't need to be concerned because we think antibodies will protect for an unknown amount of time is bad policy. Also, laughing at the mask "agenda".
Yes, but telling *at least* people without antibodies to be careful is better policy than they had previously
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:21:32 PM
The science on antibodies is undetermined. Telling people they don't need to be concerned because we think antibodies will protect for an unknown amount of time is bad policy. Also, laughing at the mask "agenda".
the science is most definitely determined, if you have antibodies it is not the same as someone who never had it. If you don't differentiate between people who had it and people who didn't then you lose everyone.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 08:22:57 PM
If you don't differentiate between people who had it and people who didn't then you lose everyone.
I don't understand why there's one set of guidelines for all of nyc, and a special version for frum people in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:24:37 PM
I don't understand why there's one set of guidelines for all of nyc, and a special version for frum people in Brooklyn.
Most people in nyc do not follow the guidelines to the tee. The city knows about it and chooses to leave it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:27:48 PM
Honestly I'm just curious, is the quality of life better when your worried about what every other community does? Or when you wear a mask to shul? Get upset when other people don't? Maybe there's something I'm missing as to why people are so adamant about other communities. Just hope everyone stays healthy and lives happily ever after? Or that's asking for too much?.....
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 08:32:19 PM
Honestly I'm just curious, is the quality of life better when your worried about what every other community does? Or when you wear a mask to shul? Get upset when other people don't? Maybe there's something I'm missing as to why people are so adamant about other communities. Just hope everyone stays healthy and lives happily ever after? Or that's asking for too much?.....
Communities don't operate in a vacuum. A spike in Boro Park will ripple to lakewood and to Bergen county.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 08:32:43 PM
Also, many people are about the heath of all of klal Yisrael.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 08:33:07 PM
Honestly I'm just curious, is the quality of life better when your worried about what every other community does? Or when you wear a mask to shul? Get upset when other people don't? Maybe there's something I'm missing as to why people are so adamant about other communities. Just hope everyone stays healthy and lives happily ever after? Or that's asking for too much?.....
The mind blowing part (and the part that reveals your gaping ignorance) is your and othersí befuddlement at people being upset that others arenít wearing a mask.

When you donít wear a mask, *they* feel they canít come to shul. How is that hard to understand? Them wearing a mask wonít protect them as much as you wearing a mask will protect them. So when you donít wear a mask, they canít come to Shul.

Thatís not called live and let live, itís called I want to live the way I want and screw you. Even true libertarians donít believe that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 08:37:46 PM
Also, my non Jewish coworkers who live in Brooklyn, Queens, and Manhattan report near universal mask wearing in stores.

For example for me personally, I would love to go to Bingo in Monsey to buy cheaper meat for Yom Tov, but I literally do not feel safe doing so.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:39:30 PM
The mind blowing part (and the part that reveals your gaping ignorance) is your and othersí befuddlement at people being upset that others arenít wearing a mask.

When you donít wear a mask, *they* feel they canít come to shul. How is that hard to understand? Them wearing a mask wonít protect them as much as you wearing a mask will protect them. So when you donít wear a mask, they canít come to Shul.

Thatís not called live and let live, itís called I want to live the way I want and screw you. Even true libertarians donít believe that.
No its called you living in a vacuum and assuming everyone else has corona and is spreading it and therefore they are an issue. That is sick and demented, and that's exactly what the world is turning on itself. Your safety doesn't depend on other people. It depends on  doing what God wants from us, and not doing what he doesn't. Like not being nasty to other people etc. Of course everyone needs to take basic precautions, but to go on and ramble about putting people at risk etc, is just really sad.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:39:57 PM
Communities don't operate in a vacuum. A spike in Boro Park will ripple to lakewood and to Bergen county.
Comes back you worrying about yourself.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:40:55 PM




For example for me personally, I would love to go to Bingo in Monsey to buy cheaper meat for Yom Tov, but I literally do not feel safe doing so.

And again worried about yourself. What kind of sick people are we turning into?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 02, 2020, 08:41:46 PM
Comes back you worrying about yourself.

Must be sad to be you, thinking that no one cares about anyone or anything but themselves.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:44:40 PM
Must be sad to be you, thinking that no one cares about anyone or anything but themselves.
Lol. When I go into a store and see someone not wearing a mask it really does not bother me, free country. Obviously I'd prefer if they did, but I don't feel that I'm personally being affected by his decision. Might be irresponsible of him but my personal safety is not based on his actions.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 08:44:46 PM
No its called you living in a vacuum and assuming everyone else has corona and is spreading it and therefore they are an issue. That is sick and demented, and that's exactly what the world is turning on itself. Your safety doesn't depend on other people. It depends on  doing what God wants from us, and not doing what he doesn't. Like not being nasty to other people etc. Of course everyone needs to take basic precautions, but to go on and ramble about putting people at risk etc, is just really sad.
You switch arguments effortlessly, like a magician. Now youíre arguing over how many people have corona and how large our histhadlus has to be. Next, I guess youíre going to discuss how deadly it is or somehow bring cars into this.

Fact: If many people have COVID, and I canít go to Shul because youíre not wearing a mask, you not wearing a mask does affect me. If it is beyond you how one can be upset about that then thereís no hope.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 02, 2020, 08:46:03 PM
Comes back you worrying about yourself.
So a Yid worrying about the health of other communities is called "worrying about yourself??

You are so lost.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 08:46:22 PM
Lol. When I go into a store and see someone not wearing a mask it really does not bother me, free country. Obviously I'd prefer if they did, but I don't feel that I'm personally being effected by his decision.
When I go into a school and someone is shooting an AK47 it really does not bother me, second amendment. Obviously Iíd prefer if they didnít but I donít feel like I am personally being affected.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:48:08 PM
When I go into a school and someone is shooting an AK47 it really does not bother me, second amendment. Obviously Iíd prefer if they didnít but I donít feel like I am personally being affected.
So if you truly feel that way about masks and covid, then I highly recommend professional help .
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 08:49:58 PM
So if you truly feel that way about masks and covid, then I highly recommend professional help .
I donít. But in a similar vein people may feel that way, albeit at a lower level. And believe it or not, for some people, COVID is actually close to a death sentence.

Did you know that around 95% of gunshot victims survive, with most achieving a great quality of life afterwards?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 02, 2020, 08:55:20 PM
I donít. But in a similar vein people may feel that way, albeit at a lower level. And believe it or not, for some people, COVID is actually close to a death sentence.
Based on what I'm reading here it seems like a valid comparison for some.
Did you know that around 95% of gunshot victims survive, with most achieving a great quality of life afterwards?

Of the people shot... were talking about someone maybe having covid, whose maybe contagious, whose maybe able to spread it to you, and your maybe gonna catch it. Do you not see a difference? Maybe not, and that might explain us not understanding each other
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 02, 2020, 09:01:59 PM
Lol. When I go into a store and see someone not wearing a mask it really does not bother me, free country. Obviously I'd prefer if they did, but I don't feel that I'm personally being affected by his decision. Might be irresponsible of him but my personal safety is not based on his actions.

It's absolutely astounding to me how someone can spend as much time as you do arguing about masks and still have no clue how they work or why they're important. It's like a willful ignorance. It must take tremendous effort not to absorb even one iota of the science.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 09:02:45 PM
Based on what I'm reading here it seems like a valid comparison for some.
Of the people shot... were talking about someone maybe having covid, whose maybe contagious, whose maybe able to spread it to you, and your maybe gonna catch it. Do you not see a difference? Maybe not, and that might explain us not understanding each other

But when one is afraid of catching COVID (perhaps one is older with severe underlying issues) and would like to attend Shul, but canít because COVID is prevalent and people are refusing to wear masks, itís quite understandable why heíd be upset. Do you need to do it for his sake? Thatís another discussion. But his feelings are reasonable.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2020, 09:27:06 PM


The science on antibodies is undetermined. Telling people they don't need to be concerned because we think antibodies will protect for an unknown amount of time is bad policy.

I don't understand. 8 out of 25 million is not good enough for you?
Pollution probably (because its not proven) kills more than 8 in 25 million people each year yet we have not done anything like this for that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2020, 09:28:56 PM
I don't understand why there's one set of guidelines for all of nyc, and a special version for frum people in Brooklyn.
In queens I'd say less than 50% of people I see wear masks besides for in places where they are required or they will not be served.
And my neighborhood is far from heavily jewish.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2020, 09:33:27 PM


When I go into a school and someone is shooting an AK47 it really does not bother me, second amendment. Obviously Iíd prefer if they didnít but I donít feel like I am personally being affected.

Great comparison!

I donít. But in a similar vein people may feel that way, albeit at a lower level. And believe it or not, for some people, COVID is actually close to a death sentence.

Did you know that around 95% of gunshot victims survive, with most achieving a great quality of life afterwards?

Someone who passes near someone who *may* have covid who is not wearing a mask has a slightly less chance of killing the person than 95%. Just slightly.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 09:38:35 PM

Great comparison!

Someone who passes near someone who *may* have covid who is not wearing a mask has a slightly less chance of killing the person than 95%. Just slightly.
If that is how you perceived my argument you werenít really paying attention.

This was what I said
The mind blowing part (and the part that reveals your gaping ignorance) is your and othersí befuddlement at people being upset that others arenít wearing a mask.

When you donít wear a mask, *they* feel they canít come to shul. How is that hard to understand? Them wearing a mask wonít protect them as much as you wearing a mask will protect them. So when you donít wear a mask, they canít come to Shul.

Thatís not called live and let live, itís called I want to live the way I want and screw you. Even true libertarians donít believe that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 02, 2020, 09:39:39 PM

I don't understand. 8 out of 25 million is not good enough for you?
Pollution probably (because its not proven) kills more than 8 in 25 million people each year yet we have not done anything like this for that.

It is currently undisputed that having been infected with Covid makes your body create antibodies, and that those antibodies will help keep you immune from subsequent infection for some time. It is mostly agreed upon that the shortest amount of time that immunity lasts is between 3-6 months. Most also agree that the immunity will probably last longer, but no one knows yet how long. Given that the vast majority if those 25 million infections occured within the accepted minimum immunity period of 3-6 months, those cases do nothing but confirm that initial time frame. Beyond 6 months, the science is very much undetermined.

With regards to the frum community in particular, the bulk of our infections occured around 6 months ago. Other places or communities that had large outbreaks of the virus around that time have managed to keep the virus out of their areas. We can't look to them for data on reinfection because they haven't been exposed a second time yet. Unfortunately, as @S209 pointed out earlier, the frum community may very well be the guinea pigs when it comes to collecting reinfection data. Now that doesn't mean reinfections will be rampant. It could turn out that antibodies last for 2 years in most people. But it does mean that the book is still being written on the subject, and to assume immunity when we know nothing solid about it would be foolish.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 02, 2020, 09:59:03 PM

I don't understand. 8 out of 25 million is not good enough for you?
Pollution probably (because its not proven) kills more than 8 in 25 million people each year yet we have not done anything like this for that.
We don't know if the antibodies last 5 months, 6 months, 12 months etc.

I'd rather not have another March/April as we figure that out.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 02, 2020, 10:22:45 PM
you can measure a persons Yiras Shomayim by how serious he takes masks

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 02, 2020, 10:24:05 PM
Alol
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 02, 2020, 11:09:09 PM
you can measure a persons intelligence by how serious he takes masks
FTFY
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 03, 2020, 03:20:45 AM
I am not going to engage in this again.

Experience from the first time around has shown that people are only interested in arguing against anything, rather than simply do their part.

People are so ingrained in anything they do, wearing a mask indoors and decreasing exposure is a very small thing to ask, still, people will fight tooth and nail like a talmudic debate.

I have stomach issues at times, one part is from much coffee, wine etc..

The other may be lack of fluid in my colon, various foods including fried, cabbage family veggies, raw veggies etc so on and so forth.

Now, when my gut goes, ok I'll have a bad night, 3-4 hours sleep.. it sucks but meh..but I'll implement changes

Then do this for a week and it really forces me to act. 3-4 hours a night on every night besides Shabbat  will make you run.

I love beer, I don't drink it often, my stomach hates it.

I try to manage my acidity, I take prelief to lower acid, I only do paper filtered chemex coffee or cold brew, I eat before coffee

And you know the list is endless, I love french fries but how old is the oil in the store?

Sometimes I make changes and they are seemingly no help and I fe like eh just f#@$ it.

And sometimes everything is all fine and dandy and I want to throw caution in the wind.

Maturity is part of growing up.

ďInsanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.Ē

What's my point ? Who knows what's gonna happen, all your arguments make you look silly and stupid, sure I was wrong, we didn't run out of ventilators and ventilators were killing people.

But just as they found cures like proning, remdesivir etc

They also find out possible long term damages from the virus and possible reinfection.

 Will wearing a mask help you / others? Most likely, it's a minor thing to do for possible huge gains.

Studies show that large numbers indoors talking loudly, singing etc are a prime ground for the virus.

Will you infect a random passerby outdoors as you pass them for 2 seconds? Likely not.

However, you have the responsibility that you may have God forbid been reinfected and now you walk down the street casually and sneeze and those droplets go bada bing and infect someone else.

Oops.. well, it's his fault for not staying home, seeing as he has health issues and what not.

Just wear the damn mask, people make this like an opposition to some suppressive decrees "oh well you just go along and wear a mask just like you're told, just like our forefathers put on yellow stars"

Life is long and life is short, the older I get, the more tolerant I am of others, the more I also demand from others.  If I'm growing up, they should do.

One day we'll all die, what happens then? I don't know

I try not to burn my bridges in life and work to drink responsibily

I can see the validity of many points, but the bottom line is, do it for the sake of others.

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 03, 2020, 06:11:48 AM
@chevron is back!

That post was like a good ol' Covid road trip. Through the Grand Canyon, check out some views from the Rockies, play with some bison in Yellowstone, and then bring it all home. But just when you think you see your driveway, quick detour to play with some gators in the Everglades. A real classic!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on September 03, 2020, 07:59:32 AM
When I go into a school and someone is shooting an AK47 it really does not bother me, second amendment. Obviously Iíd prefer if they didnít but I donít feel like I am personally being affected.
FWIW Shooting an AK47 isn't covered under the second amendment .
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 04, 2020, 02:01:07 PM
This discussion took a sharp turn and went over a cliff...

To everyone saying, "Just wear a mask!":

The Just Everyone Wear A Mask (JEW AM) is not limited to stores and shuls. JEWAM includes 3 year olds in playgroups and on planes; shutting down shuls indefinitely and ask questions later; months of not allowing 10 people to gather for a minyan with masks and social distancing outdoors; lots of other restrictions that went and or continue to go beyond the JEWAM expressly stated argument. The push back therefore is not directed IMO specifically to masks but to the whole movement that will and does take away all semblance of reason.

This extends to the arguments that include rationales that are not in proportion to the politically correct response: The unknown and yet unleashed fury of reinfection, which currently serves as no reasonable basis for any protective measures; the long-term effects of COVID-infection, which require extensive research to quantify their severity and frequency and as currently understood are not a reasonable basis for changing the functionality of society. The pushback is not directed IMO specifically to JEWAM in order to save lives of the vulnerable population, but the agenda that uses any and all potentially legitimate and clearly illegitimate rationales to upend society.

Everyone is worried about the safety of vulnerable people. Why can't every vulnerable person wear an N-95 mask? I see them all over, clearly they aren't limited to health personnel. The N-95 provides a very high level of protection even in a room full of selfish, ignoramous, murderous non-mask-wearers. Please enlighten me on this!

I was in Flatbush this past week for Shabbos. One shul noone wore a mask. The next shul everyone did. I followed their lead. The shul that wore masks, the elderly were the worst offenders of sliding it below the nose or below the chin 5 minutes into davening. To double down on this anecdotal evidence, I have witnessed this with regularity in many other shuls and public settings.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2020, 02:13:59 PM

The Just Everyone Wear A Mask (JEW AM) is not limited to stores and shuls. JEWAM includes 3 year olds in playgroups and on planes; shutting down shuls indefinitely and ask questions later; months of not allowing 10 people to gather for a minyan with masks and social distancing outdoors; lots of other restrictions that went and or continue to go beyond the JEWAM expressly stated argument.

Yup, the people like you who seem incapable of understanding anything but this lie are truly a problem. This is what makes
This discussion took a sharp turn and went over a cliff...


Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 04, 2020, 02:40:18 PM
this lie

Which one do you refer to as "this lie"? There are so many to choose from!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2020, 02:48:08 PM
Which one do you refer to as "this lie"? There are so many to choose from!
That advocating mask wearing includes

shutting down shuls indefinitely and ask questions later; months of not allowing 10 people to gather for a minyan with masks and social distancing outdoors; lots of other restrictions that went and or continue to go beyond the JEWAM expressly stated argument


It is these lies that you are stating which causes others who, like you, seem to have limited capabilities of understanding that it does not have to be all or nothing to push back on doing ANYTHING AT ALL. It will be people like you who cause there to be much more restrictive shutdowns. If and when they happen we will be able to thank you for doing it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
I'd say straw man alert, but this straw man already tackled us and counted to ten
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 03:03:36 PM
That advocating mask wearing includes

It is these lies that you are stating which causes others who, like you, seem to have limited capabilities of understanding that it does not have to be all or nothing to push back on doing ANYTHING AT ALL. It will be people like you who cause there to be much more restrictive shutdowns. If and when they happen we will be able to thank you for doing it.
+1M
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 04, 2020, 03:04:15 PM
It is these lies that you are stating which causes others who, like you, seem to have limited capabilities of understanding that it does not have to be all or nothing to push back on doing ANYTHING AT ALL. It will be people like you who cause there to be much more restrictive shutdowns. If and when they happen we will be able to thank you for doing it.

Exactly my point. Those who go so far beyond what is reasonable and create unnecessary restrictions and apply them without logic or measure are creating

push back on doing ANYTHING AT ALL.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 04, 2020, 03:06:23 PM
That advocating mask wearing includes

It is these lies that you are stating which causes others who, like you, seem to have limited capabilities of understanding that it does not have to be all or nothing to push back on doing ANYTHING AT ALL. It will be people like you who cause there to be much more restrictive shutdowns. If and when they happen we will be able to thank you for doing it.
100% correct
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 03:06:59 PM
Exactly my point. Those who go so far beyond what is reasonable and create unnecessary restrictions and apply them without logic or measure are creating
This is baloney. Which people on this forum have been calling for unnecessary restrictions and applying them without logic or measure? Why do you have any reason to believe that those advocating for jewam have a sinister plot to add other restrictions? Because you have a conspiracy theory, therefore we should do nothing?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 04, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
Someone said this a few weeks back and I think there is Emes in what he said - wearing a mask in public settings is like wearing a seat belt as the driver of a car. You wear it to protect yourself and to protect others. The driver of the car wears a seat belt to protect himself as well as others.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
Exactly my point. Those who go so far beyond what is reasonable and create unnecessary restrictions and apply them without logic or measure are creating

I'm sorry but I expect our community to be better than saying ignore everything because Deblasio and Coumo are clowns. I am saddened that you have such low expectations of our community.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 04, 2020, 03:43:17 PM
Which people on this forum have been calling for unnecessary restrictions and applying them without logic or measure?

The whole AK47 argument lacks any logic. Arguing that antibodies are irrelevant IMO is being restrictive without measure. These are recent arguments in the thread.

Why do you have any reason to believe that those advocating for jewam have a sinister plot to add other restrictions?
If you read this thread, you will definitely see a strong push to shut down weddings for sure. Look at related threads and you will see the pushback at Lakewood 40,000 students returning to yeshivos. So though the arguments are limited to masks, they really aren't.

BTW The 40,000 are all people who acted without ever reading my posts, so don't try blaming me for that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 04:03:39 PM
The whole AK47 argument lacks any logic. Arguing that antibodies are irrelevant IMO is being restrictive without measure. These are recent arguments in the thread.
If you read this thread, you will definitely see a strong push to shut down weddings for sure. Look at related threads and you will see the pushback at Lakewood 40,000 students returning to yeshivos. So though the arguments are limited to masks, they really aren't.

BTW The 40,000 are all people who acted without ever reading my posts, so don't try blaming me for that.
Nobody is calling for "shutting down" weddings. There was definitely a call to be more careful with regard to weddings, but that was by no means the jewams. It was actually on both sides of the aisle, and if anything a bigger push from the anti maskers
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 04, 2020, 04:28:44 PM
Nobody is calling for "shutting down" weddings.

Earlier in the thread there was an argument for OOTers to attend weddings by ZOOM. That would effectively be shutting down weddings as we know them for OOTers.

Why can't every vulnerable person wear an N-95 mask? I see them all over, clearly they aren't limited to health personnel. The N-95 provides a very high level of protection even in a room full of non-mask-wearers.

Why is this not a valid argument?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 04, 2020, 04:30:52 PM
N95s don't provide high level protection for anyone with facial hair. They also have a low rate of compliance among non-professionals for wearing them properly.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 04:39:41 PM
N95s don't provide high level protection for anyone with facial hair. They also have a low rate of compliance among non-professionals for wearing them properly.
I know nurses who wore n95s and got infected
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 04:42:15 PM


Earlier in the thread there was an argument for OOTers to attend weddings by ZOOM. That would effectively be shutting down weddings as we know them for OOTers.


This is not shutting down weddings. Additionally, I suspect those calling for this would probably be comfortable with ooters at masked, outdoor weddings. Far cry from calling for unreasonable shutdowns
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ckmk47 on September 04, 2020, 04:55:42 PM
I know nurses who wore n95s and got infected
Therefore I would posit that they became infected in their community not at work .
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 04, 2020, 05:00:50 PM
Therefore I would posit that they became infected in their community not at work .
Possibly
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2020, 05:05:53 PM
The whole AK47 argument lacks any logic. Arguing that antibodies are irrelevant IMO is being restrictive without measure. These are recent arguments in the thread.
If you read this thread, you will definitely see a strong push to shut down weddings for sure. Look at related threads and you will see the pushback at Lakewood 40,000 students returning to yeshivos. So though the arguments are limited to masks, they really aren't.

BTW The 40,000 are all people who acted without ever reading my posts, so don't try blaming me for that.
You are lying. These things were not said here. Nobody called antibodies irrelevant. Nobody called for shutting down weddings. Nobody pushed back at BMG opening. It is a bunch of lies.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ShimshonK on September 04, 2020, 05:08:56 PM
N95s don't provide high level protection for anyone with facial hair. They also have a low rate of compliance among non-professionals for wearing them properly.
Health professionals also get them fit-tested using some sort of spray to ensure a perfect seal, not something your ordinary Joe is doing.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 05, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
https://matzav.com/exposing-the-lies-weve-been-told-about-covid-shutting-shuls-supposed-upticks-and-more/

This is an article that provides lots of arguments against those that believe Yiddishkeit supports following the directive of doctors (and hatzalah) in response to the perceived threats of COVID as justified.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ed9LjJbKoCRaEzJdGBzfj-HTaeOHngNB/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 05, 2020, 09:29:32 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ed9LjJbKoCRaEzJdGBzfj-HTaeOHngNB/view?usp=drivesdk
Private, and inaccessible.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 05, 2020, 09:30:26 PM
Private, and inaccessible.
How do I share a PDF?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 05, 2020, 09:32:10 PM
How do I share a PDF?
Use the attach file button on the website (need the full editor, not the quick reply. Click 'preview' from quick reply.)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 05, 2020, 09:33:36 PM
Use the attach file button on the website (need the full editor, not the quick reply. Click 'preview' from quick reply.)
I guess that doesn't work in tapa. Will post later from a desktop. It's a line by line rebuttal to E David Smith
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 05, 2020, 09:34:23 PM
I guess that doesn't work in tapa. Will post later from a desktop. It's a line by line rebuttal to E David Smith
Yeah. You can click "web view" to access the website from tapa
Title: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 05, 2020, 09:38:26 PM
I guess that doesn't work in tapa. Will post later from a desktop. It's a line by line rebuttal to E David Smith
Impressive that anyone had the fortitude to sit and read it. Masochistic.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 05, 2020, 10:28:50 PM
Impressive that anyone had the fortitude to sit and read it. Masochistic.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 06, 2020, 02:19:18 PM
You are lying. These things were not said here. Nobody called for shutting down weddings.

Reply #163, #164 both suggest ZOOM or outdoor venues as a practical alternative to having in person indoors weddings with OOT participation. Those would be effectively shutting down weddings as we know it, at least for OOTers. There are limited outdoor venues available and the weather is too unpredictable in the Northeast to plan such a wedding.

...Nobody called antibodies irrelevant.

Reply #265 clearly dismisses antibodies as having practical relevance, as does #269 to a lesser degree.

...Nobody pushed back at BMG opening. It is a bunch of lies.

BMG was never mentioned. That was a lie.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 06, 2020, 02:35:29 PM
Reply #163, #164 both suggest ZOOM or outdoor venues as a practical alternative to having in person indoors weddings with OOT participation. Those would be effectively shutting down weddings as we know it, at least for OOTers. There are limited outdoor venues available and the weather is too unpredictable in the Northeast to plan such a wedding.

Reply #265 clearly dismisses antibodies as having practical relevance, as does #269 to a lesser degree.

BMG was never mentioned. That was a lie.


Okay, so have you been fasting your whole life since you can't eat at McDonalds?

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: gozalim on September 06, 2020, 08:54:51 PM
a practical alternative to having in person indoors weddings with OOT participation. Those would be effectively shutting down weddings as we know it, at least for OOTers.
1. newsflash. OOTers who aren't atending weddings in their own town shouldn't be  attending in our town either. this is one of those things that just shoudln't have an alternative.

2. what percentage of most wedding guests are OOTers  that missing them would "end weddings as we know them"?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 06, 2020, 09:22:10 PM
1. newsflash. OOTers who aren't atending weddings in their own town shouldn't be  attending in our town either. this is one of those things that just shoudln't have an alternative.

2. what percentage of most wedding guests are OOTers  that missing them would "end weddings as we know them"?
When an OOTer comes to a wedding, it usually means they're an important part of the wedding.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: gozalim on September 06, 2020, 09:29:32 PM
When an OOTer comes to a wedding, it usually means they're an important part of the wedding.
if they're that closely related (immediate sibling) they can find it in their schedule to quarnatine the 10 days. (I know people who did that last week)
If the wedding isn't worth a week of your time, it isn't worth endangering your grandfather (who'se also the chosson's grandfather).
If such an important member of the party must attend, perhaps the wedding needs to be moved to an outdoor venue to accomodate them. again, if you're not that important to them, maybe you don't need to be there
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 06, 2020, 10:07:47 PM
1. newsflash. OOTers who aren't atending weddings in their own town shouldn't be  attending in our town either. this is one of those things that just shoudln't have an alternative.

2. what percentage of most wedding guests are OOTers  that missing them would "end weddings as we know them"?
Ma! There's nothing to eat! I'm starving!

Yankel, I made your favorite supper. No you can't have 5 bags of chips for supper.

But Ma! I want chips! You're starving me! Why aren't you giving me anything to eat!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 06, 2020, 11:59:39 PM
The whole AK47 argument lacks any logic. Arguing that antibodies are irrelevant IMO is being restrictive without measure. These are recent arguments in the thread.
If you read this thread, you will definitely see a strong push to shut down weddings for sure. Look at related threads and you will see the pushback at Lakewood 40,000 students returning to yeshivos. So though the arguments are limited to masks, they really aren't.

BTW The 40,000 are all people who acted without ever reading my posts, so don't try blaming me for that.
There was no AK47 argument. Itís possible ONE poster considered antibodies to be wholly irrelevant, but there certainly isnít a plurality here who are advocating for that.

Nobody said each minyan must be exactly 10. Nobody said to disallow weddings. (Nearly all) people have said to *restrict* weddings. No, that isnít the equivalent of shutting down the economy and stifling everyone, it means making small sacrifices to keep infections down. It also doesnít mean ďno more weddings like we know it!Ē Will they be different? Sure. Is it an insurmountable difference? Of course not.

About the N95 masks- they are far from perfect protection, although certainly those at higher risk must protect themselves better. They are difficult to obtain. Many do not know how to fit them properly. They canít be reused. Facial hear limits their efficacy. Many health care professionals with full PPE have still gotten infected in hospital settings.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 07, 2020, 12:00:56 AM
R Moshe Scheinerman is in the hospital on oxygen with a new case. Another fellow I know from afar Rockaway is in the hospital as well.

There is ZERO evidence or reason to suspect there is a milder strain going around. ZERO.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 07, 2020, 12:42:32 AM
R Moshe Scheinerman is in the hospital on oxygen with a new case. Another fellow I know from afar Rockaway is in the hospital as well.

There is ZERO evidence or reason to suspect there is a milder strain going around. ZERO.

COVID is covid is covid.

Only difference is that in March, hospitals actually killed people outright.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 07, 2020, 12:44:11 AM
BP's positive percentage hit 5% per official data.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yzj on September 07, 2020, 02:54:44 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/09/06/health-commissioner-warns-covid-spike-orthodox-communities/

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpmN0qcL/AA318-DE9-684-A-40-CC-B4-BB-F72-FA1-E1-F1-BE.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/523GkZWK/BC637-ADA-C66-E-4776-9-DE0-80-D20-B0-C0222.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QFF0FYtc)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Traveler718 on September 07, 2020, 10:10:38 AM
R Moshe Scheinerman is in the hospital on oxygen with a new case. Another fellow I know from afar Rockaway is in the hospital as well.

Wow, as in the Rav of the shul in Flatbush at 24th and P? Do you know his full name for Tehillim? When did this happen, and how serious is the situation?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 07, 2020, 11:33:56 AM
Wow, as in the Rav of the shul in Flatbush at 24th and P? Do you know his full name for Tehillim? When did this happen, and how serious is the situation?
Yes the Rav. I wasnít able to get the tehillim name, will try to find out, but they asked for tefillos.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ShimshonK on September 07, 2020, 04:54:52 PM
Wow, as in the Rav of the shul in Flatbush at 24th and P? Do you know his full name for Tehillim? When did this happen, and how serious is the situation?

YWN posted a video of him encouraging people to donate plasma -
https://www.instagram.com/p/CE0c3wGnIKn/?igshid=2ymdopcj4sjp
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 07, 2020, 09:38:19 PM
https://hamodia.com/2020/09/06/health-commissioner-warns-covid-spike-orthodox-communities/

People: ďBut there havenít been any hospitalizations! Nobody is getting really sick! The strain is lighter!Ē

Quote
But during the past two weeks, Orthodox communities in New York once again started seeing a spike in cases. During that period, according to a medical source in the community who spoke to Hamodia on Sunday, there have been approximately 10 COVID hospitalizations in the community, including serious cases and intubations.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 08, 2020, 02:37:39 AM
https://hamodia.com/2020/09/06/health-commissioner-warns-covid-spike-orthodox-communities/

People: ďBut there havenít been any hospitalizations! Nobody is getting really sick! The strain is lighter!Ē

So really nobody learns from round one nobody learned that the disease can go around very quietly and stealth like.

That by the way it works, If you know of 10 people that have it, 1000 have it.

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 08, 2020, 09:46:25 AM
https://vosizneias.com/2020/09/08/covid-positivity-rates-spike-in-orthodox-neighborhoods-in-new-york-city-with-large-weddings-eyed-as-a-culprit/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 08, 2020, 10:03:07 AM
Asisa has been averaging around 5 cases a day.

By the way, with all the new infections, they're a lot more confident about reinfection. All infections are first time.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 08, 2020, 10:04:16 AM
All infections are first time.

Source?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 08, 2020, 10:07:52 AM
Asisa has been averaging around 5 cases a day.

By the way, with all the new infections, they're a lot more confident about reinfection. All infections are first time.
Yup. But still pretty interesting how many people didn't get it the first time around.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 08, 2020, 10:14:11 AM
Source?
First time people who never tested positive for virus, or only people not known to have antibodies?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 08, 2020, 10:22:28 AM
Yup. But still pretty interesting how many people didn't get it the first time around.
  ::)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 08, 2020, 10:24:28 AM
First time people who never tested positive for virus, or only people not known to have antibodies?

His statement was they are all first time infections.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 08, 2020, 10:29:44 AM
  ::)
Everyone was under the impression 90% had it. Fast forward 6 months and the % is growing smaller and smaller lol.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 08, 2020, 10:33:14 AM
Everyone was under the impression 90% had it. Fast forward 6 months and the % is growing smaller and smaller lol.
Who is everyone?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 08, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Who is everyone?
Everyone in BP...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 08, 2020, 10:59:51 AM
Everyone was under the impression 90% had it. Fast forward 6 months and the % is growing smaller and smaller lol.
When people make assumption not based on fact it is not a tremendous surprise that the assumptions proved to be wrong.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 08, 2020, 11:01:51 AM
When people make assumption not based on fact it is not a tremendous surprise that the assumptions proved to be wrong.
Ask anyone in BP, they'll still say everyone had it. They had a much higher concentration of cases then probably any other frum community, outside ns/kj.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 08, 2020, 11:24:49 AM
Ask anyone in BP, they'll still say everyone had it. They had a much higher concentration of cases then probably any other frum community, outside ns/kj.

Be that as it may, there is a large gap between "a much higher concentration" and "everyone had it". When people make such ridiculous leaps and aren't bound by reality then they shouldn't be surprised when reality snaps back at them.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 08, 2020, 01:09:44 PM
Maybe some secular education in high schools would be a good thing....
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 08, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
Maybe some secular education in high schools would be a good thing....

Cuz that's working out so well for the rest of the geniuses in this country... :P
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 08, 2020, 01:20:18 PM
Cuz that's working out so well for the rest of the geniuses in this country... :P
Can I "Farher" them?  ;)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 08, 2020, 02:18:11 PM

When people make assumption not based on fact it is not a tremendous surprise that the assumptions proved to be wrong.



That by the way it works, If you know of 10 people that have it, 1000 have it.

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Hjay on September 08, 2020, 04:06:00 PM
Where can one get a rapid test in Brooklyn? Preferably Flatbush
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ckmk47 on September 08, 2020, 04:36:32 PM
Where can one get a rapid test in Brooklyn? Preferably Flatbush
18th Ave and 45th St

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Hjay on September 09, 2020, 11:07:29 AM
18th Ave and 45th St

Whatís there?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 12:52:59 PM
Whatís there?


(https://i.postimg.cc/m2JJc7nG/Capture.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HV0BR8HS)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Traveler718 on September 09, 2020, 01:53:53 PM
I saw it reported that FDNY (!) was yesterday going up and down 13th Avenue giving tickets in stores where employees weren't wearing masks. Meanwhile, the BP weddings continue full speed ahead...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: mercaz1 on September 09, 2020, 02:14:25 PM
I saw it reported that FDNY (!) was yesterday going up and down 13th Avenue giving tickets in stores where employees weren't wearing masks. Meanwhile, the BP weddings continue full speed ahead...

I heard Chinka was closed down (or closed themselves due to fines) but not sure for how long
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 02:31:37 PM
The Palace also closed.

I was at a wedding at a Boro Park hall a couple of weeks ago and the manager was very nervous. He showed me the texts he was getting from managers at the other BP halls that were closed down mid-wedding. The Palace, Chinka, Vishnitz and Ateres Chaya, I think.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 02:35:38 PM
The Palace also closed.

I was at a wedding at a Boro Park hall a couple of weeks ago and the manager was very nervous. He showed me the texts he was getting from managers at the other BP halls that were closed down mid-wedding. The Palace, Chinka, Vishnitz and Ateres Chaya, I think.
If only there were a solution to this.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 02:50:58 PM
Currently it is to get married in Lakewood or Monsey, it seems. Anyhow the wedding season ends tomorrow and what will happen in mid October when weddings start up again only the One Above knows.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 09, 2020, 03:08:47 PM
Currently it is to get married in Lakewood or Monsey, it seems. Anyhow the wedding season ends tomorrow and what will happen in mid October when weddings start up again only the One Above knows.
I know someone who got engaged recently and they're making the wedding in lakewood (where the boy lives) instead of Brooklyn (where the girl lives) for this reason.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Traveler718 on September 09, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
The Palace also closed.

I was at a wedding at a Boro Park hall a couple of weeks ago and the manager was very nervous. He showed me the texts he was getting from managers at the other BP halls that were closed down mid-wedding. The Palace, Chinka, Vishnitz and Ateres Chaya, I think.

I think they closed in response to the NY Post article and the spotlight it shone on them. But unless some were forcibly shut down by the authorities, I think they're all back up and running. My neighbor made a wedding in Ateres Chaya earlier this week. The invitation specified a specific door to enter through. There's a wedding in my shul at Kol Yaakov tonight, and another one tomorrow in BP (not sure where). I'm not going to any of them, but it's clear that Cuomo's threats were empty. I'm curious who called in FDNY to BP thought.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 09, 2020, 03:58:19 PM
Hearing that there were close to 30 Hatzoloh calls for covid in Cedarhurst/ North Woodmere?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 09, 2020, 04:08:29 PM
Hearing that there were close to 30 Hatzoloh calls for covid in Cedarhurst/ North Woodmere?
Not true.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 09, 2020, 04:08:57 PM
If only there were a solution to this.
Another thread where you have to try and show that you believe you are better then everyone else.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 09, 2020, 04:11:50 PM
Hearing that there were close to 30 Hatzoloh calls for covid in Cedarhurst/ North Woodmere?
Can't be, they all wear masks so transmission and viral loads are much smaller/ non existent. Only lakewood has covid calls.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 09, 2020, 04:21:42 PM
Not true.
K. Someone who lives in the area mentioned this. I guess they did not have accurate info.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 09, 2020, 04:22:39 PM
Can't be, they all wear masks so transmission and viral loads are much smaller/ non existent. Only lakewood has covid calls.

That's not true. My wife teaches in a BY in that area and the students are not required to wear masks. We aren't happy about it, but the school made policy.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 09, 2020, 04:34:17 PM
That's not true. My wife teaches in a BY in that area and the students are not required to wear masks. We aren't happy about it, but the school made policy.
I know some yeshivas left it up to the teachers..
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Traveler718 on September 09, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
I have no inside knowledge regarding Hatzolah calls in the 5T. I do know that a shul in NW send out an email that there was a guest in the community over Shabbos who subsequently tested positive. He davened in several shuls - with a mask - but also attended a kiddush where he ate without a mask. So it is possible that this created an uptick in the area.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 04:50:45 PM
That's not true. My wife teaches in a BY in that area and the students are not required to wear masks. We aren't happy about it, but the school made policy.

For comparison, here is BY Baltimore rules, which are being fully enforced. Some will love them, some will think they are excessive:

-Students without completed and signed forms will not be admitted to school. Once others have gone to class, any such student will be led to a quarantine spot and remain there until a form is submitted. The office will be able to address such situations only after school has begun. Students who arrive at school once the school day has started must turn in their forms before proceeding anywhere else in the building.

- Completing and signing COVID forms on a daily basis is demanding and challenging Ė but our key to being able to have safe, regular school.

-Masks need to be worn at all times except during lunch time (according to the guidelines below) and regular mask breaks at the end of each period.

-Enter and exit the building according to the front doorsí grade designations.

-Snacks may be eaten only when you are sitting at your desk, distanced from others, during mask off times, or outside if distanced. Bring your snack with you to class beforehand. This may be hard to get used to, but there is no eating, drinking, or snacking except according to the guidelines outlined here.

-Under these circumstances, we have received a psak that students eating in the classrooms may wash for motzei in the bathroom and make the bracha as you dry your hands outside the bathroom.

-Students may eat lunch at their distanced desks or outside (nowhere else in the building). You may eat with others outside if you are distanced at least five feet apart. There is very little room for this out front, and you may eat in the field. Those who eat in the classrooms may afterwards walk outside unmasked, if distanced from others. The auditorium will be available to a different grade each day for distance eating. We have extended lunch time several minutes in order for the options above to be more feasible. If you are out of earshot of the bell, be sure to bring a watch. You must be on time to afternoon classes.

-Students may also walk briefly outside unmasked and distanced during afternoon break. It is your responsibility to be back in class on time.

-Students will receive lockers, but you are asked to arrange your belongings so that you will go to your locker only infrequently during the day. Also, please avoid going to your locker regularly at the end of the day.

-Loitering at lockers or in the hallways or bathrooms will not be permitted, even masked. Be prepared to spend spare time at your desk in the classroom.

∑        When walking in corridors, stay to the right, as will be indicated by directional arrows.
∑        We plan to provide cleansers (or you can bring your own), so that classes can wipe down any desks used, which you will leave before the next class.  Homeroom classes will remain in the same classroom throughout the morning.
-Grades will be kept in their individual, designated areas (in general).

-Staircases will be designated: Front stairs- eleventh grade; Back stairs- ninth grade; Middle stairs- tenth and twelfth grade.

-For afternoon classes, we will be alternating asking different parts of the alphabet to wait for one minute after the bell before leaving class, to prevent hallway crowding. We will start the year with one arrangement and alternate during the year.

-At school starting and ending times, remain distanced as you wait your turn to enter or leave.

-Students are expected to remain and interact only in their designated grade areas during the school day.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
For comparison, here is BY Baltimore rules, which are being fully enforced. Some will love them, some will think they are excessive:

-Students without completed and signed forms will not be admitted to school. Once others have gone to class, any such student will be led to a quarantine spot and remain there until a form is submitted. The office will be able to address such situations only after school has begun. Students who arrive at school once the school day has started must turn in their forms before proceeding anywhere else in the building.

- Completing and signing COVID forms on a daily basis is demanding and challenging Ė but our key to being able to have safe, regular school.

-Masks need to be worn at all times except during lunch time (according to the guidelines below) and regular mask breaks at the end of each period.

-Enter and exit the building according to the front doorsí grade designations.

-Snacks may be eaten only when you are sitting at your desk, distanced from others, during mask off times, or outside if distanced. Bring your snack with you to class beforehand. This may be hard to get used to, but there is no eating, drinking, or snacking except according to the guidelines outlined here.

-Under these circumstances, we have received a psak that students eating in the classrooms may wash for motzei in the bathroom and make the bracha as you dry your hands outside the bathroom.

-Students may eat lunch at their distanced desks or outside (nowhere else in the building). You may eat with others outside if you are distanced at least five feet apart. There is very little room for this out front, and you may eat in the field. Those who eat in the classrooms may afterwards walk outside unmasked, if distanced from others. The auditorium will be available to a different grade each day for distance eating. We have extended lunch time several minutes in order for the options above to be more feasible. If you are out of earshot of the bell, be sure to bring a watch. You must be on time to afternoon classes.

-Students may also walk briefly outside unmasked and distanced during afternoon break. It is your responsibility to be back in class on time.

-Students will receive lockers, but you are asked to arrange your belongings so that you will go to your locker only infrequently during the day. Also, please avoid going to your locker regularly at the end of the day.

-Loitering at lockers or in the hallways or bathrooms will not be permitted, even masked. Be prepared to spend spare time at your desk in the classroom.

∑        When walking in corridors, stay to the right, as will be indicated by directional arrows.
∑        We plan to provide cleansers (or you can bring your own), so that classes can wipe down any desks used, which you will leave before the next class.  Homeroom classes will remain in the same classroom throughout the morning.
-Grades will be kept in their individual, designated areas (in general).

-Staircases will be designated: Front stairs- eleventh grade; Back stairs- ninth grade; Middle stairs- tenth and twelfth grade.

-For afternoon classes, we will be alternating asking different parts of the alphabet to wait for one minute after the bell before leaving class, to prevent hallway crowding. We will start the year with one arrangement and alternate during the year.

-At school starting and ending times, remain distanced as you wait your turn to enter or leave.

-Students are expected to remain and interact only in their designated grade areas during the school day.
What's a "mask break"?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: mercaz1 on September 09, 2020, 05:24:08 PM
its like a kit kat break
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 09, 2020, 05:34:03 PM
WhatsApp going around. No clue if itís accurate.
Hi All

Just letting everyone know that COVID cases are on the rise in 5T/Far Rock with at least 2 people from Far Rockaway in critical condition. Although many of the cases are mild,and one may be over confident that they did or didnít get very sick previously now is not the time to be less vigilant. Everyone should continue to wear a mask, social distance and wash their hands. If thereís not a need to be in groups one shouldnít overexposed themselves in those elements. I.E. shopping can be done online over the phone. No meals with Friends etc.

3 weeks ago Hatzalah had Zero COVID calls. 2 weeks ago we had 3. This past week we had 20+. Fact donít lie.
2 people who were perfectly healthy 3 weeks ago are now on vents (YOUNG PEOPLE)
facts donít lie.

Having anitbodies doesnít protect you. There are people who previously had antibodies and no longer have. People who have antibodies can still Transmit Covid as much as anyone else.

Having a negative Covid test yesterday doesnít protect your friends/family today.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 05:36:55 PM
WhatsApp going around. No clue if itís accurate.
Hi All

Just letting everyone know that COVID cases are on the rise in 5T/Far Rock with at least 2 people from Far Rockaway in critical condition. Although many of the cases are mild,and one may be over confident that they did or didnít get very sick previously now is not the time to be less vigilant. Everyone should continue to wear a mask, social distance and wash their hands. If thereís not a need to be in groups one shouldnít overexposed themselves in those elements. I.E. shopping can be done online over the phone. No meals with Friends etc.

3 weeks ago Hatzalah had Zero COVID calls. 2 weeks ago we had 3. This past week we had 20+. Fact donít lie.
2 people who were perfectly healthy 3 weeks ago are now on vents (YOUNG PEOPLE)
facts donít lie.

Having anitbodies doesnít protect you. There are people who previously had antibodies and no longer have. People who have antibodies can still Transmit Covid as much as anyone else.

Having a negative Covid test yesterday doesnít protect your friends/family today.
X post in the Lakewood thread where people were swearing up and down that it was a fringe medical position that people with antibodies can transmit it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 09, 2020, 05:42:02 PM
X post in the Lakewood thread where people were swearing up and down that it was a fringe medical position that people with antibodies can transmit it.
Itís just an unverified WhatsApp post. Donít put stock in it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 09, 2020, 05:50:11 PM
X post in the Lakewood thread where people were swearing up and down that it was a fringe medical position that people with antibodies can transmit it.
It is. And some random WhatsApp post doesnít make it any less fringe.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 05:53:31 PM
What's a "mask break"?

Its a 5 minute break halfway through a 40 minute class. Everyone can remove their masks and breathe normally. Girls are not allowed to talk to their neighbors in class during this break.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 06:01:45 PM
Its a 5 minute break halfway through a 40 minute class. Everyone can remove their masks and breathe normally. Girls are not allowed to talk to their neighbors in class during this break.
Doesn't this mostly defeat mask wearing? Shouldn't the mask breaks be outdoors?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 09, 2020, 06:52:39 PM
Doesn't this mostly defeat mask wearing? Shouldn't the mask breaks be outdoors?

Itís really fascinating that all rabbanim/community leaders donít consult you when making plans since you seem to think that youíre right and everyone else is wrong.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 09, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
Itís really fascinating that all rabbanim/community leaders donít consult you when making plans since you seem to think that youíre right and everyone else is wrong.
Do you have anything objective to say? @shaulyaakov made an objective statement and you replied with a subjective statement.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 07:36:23 PM
Doesn't this mostly defeat mask wearing?

IMO, ahhh yes

Shouldn't the mask breaks be outdoors?
That wouldnít be practical....500 girls walk out of the building for 5 minutes each class period. It takes 5 minutes just to get out of the building.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 07:55:21 PM
Itís really fascinating that all rabbanim/community leaders donít consult you when making plans since you seem to think that youíre right and everyone else is wrong.
Do you want everyone to get covid? Seriously, you can't actually defend decisions being made, you just respond "well that's what was decided".
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: how on September 09, 2020, 08:25:26 PM
People who have antibodies can still Transmit Covid as much as anyone else.

Source?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 09, 2020, 09:19:58 PM
Source?
A random WhatsApp poster who probably has zero clue of what they are talking about. I only posted it for the first part which alleged multiple Hatzoloh calls due to covid. If anything I would call it baloney. It certainly doesnít sound logical that those with antibodies would be immune to the disease yet would build up a high enough viral load to shed it and infect others.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: sillypainter on September 09, 2020, 09:30:00 PM
In March I listened to the Hatzolah scanner on the app and there were calls every second for a patient difficulty breathing, not anymore. Nough said.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ShimshonK on September 09, 2020, 10:16:40 PM
What's a "mask break"?
Its a 5 minute break halfway through a 40 minute class. Everyone can remove their masks and breathe normally. Girls are not allowed to talk to their neighbors in class during this break.
Slightly incorrect. It's 3 or 4 minute break (depending on period) at the very end of class. They can eat and drink by their desk, and they are allowed to talk to each other.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 10:24:18 PM
Slightly incorrect. It's 3 or 4 minute break (depending on period) at the very end of class. They can eat and drink by their desk, and they are allowed to talk to each other.

Thatís not how it was described to me by my daughter, but what you say makes more sense.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ShimshonK on September 09, 2020, 10:26:36 PM
Thatís not how it was described to me by my daughter, but what you say makes more sense.
Ask her again. This was as told to me by an immediate relative of mine who teaches there.
Who's right, teacher or student? ;)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 12, 2020, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: shaulyaakov on September 09, 2020, 04:57:38 PM

    What's a "mask break"?

Quote from: hllulbh1 on September 09, 2020, 05:53:31 PM

    Its a 5 minute break halfway through a 40 minute class. Everyone can remove their masks and breathe normally. Girls are not allowed to talk to their neighbors in class during this break.

Slightly incorrect. It's 3 or 4 minute break (depending on period) at the very end of class. They can eat and drink by their desk, and they are allowed to talk to each other.
Slightly incorrect. It's 3 or 4 minute break (depending on period) at the very end of class. They can eat and drink by their desk, and they are allowed to talk to each other.

Ha! I was sitting at shalosh seudos with family, including an Elementary school teacher, a girl in middle school, a girl in 10th grade and another in 11th. I asked: "What is a mask break?" One said, "Its a 3 minute break at the end of class where you can take off your mask and shmooze or eat." The next said, "No its not! Its in the middle of the period and you can't talk." The next said, "Its where you sit without your mask for 5 minutes and you must keep your head down on your desk!" Apparently each teacher has a different interpretation, and unfortunately the OCD teacher enforces her craziness to the mix.  :)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on September 13, 2020, 09:17:02 PM
I think they closed in response to the NY Post article and the spotlight it shone on them. But unless some were forcibly shut down by the authorities, I think they're all back up and running. My neighbor made a wedding in Ateres Chaya earlier this week. The invitation specified a specific door to enter through. There's a wedding in my shul at Kol Yaakov tonight, and another one tomorrow in BP (not sure where). I'm not going to any of them, but it's clear that Cuomo's threats were empty. I'm curious who called in FDNY to BP thought.
Got an invitation to a wedding tonight in BK stating and I'm paraphrasing "Please enter from this entrance, and that the doors will be locked from 6-9 PM"
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 13, 2020, 09:29:25 PM
We made a chasunah in BP two weeks ago and that night Cuomo's threats were being carried out. The manager of the hall was very nervous, showing us texts he was getting from managers of other BP halls (I believe four got shut down that night). Ours was not impacted. I heard that the next week at least one or two BP halls were either closed or not having indoor seating for meals. Possibly Cuomo lost interest and they started up again, but have not been following since.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yaakov35 on September 13, 2020, 09:33:50 PM
We made a chasunah in BP two weeks ago and that night Cuomo's threats were being carried out. The manager of the hall was very nervous, showing us texts he was getting from managers of other BP halls (I believe four got shut down that night). Ours was not impacted. I heard that the next week at least one or two BP halls were either closed or not having indoor seating for meals. Possibly Cuomo lost interest and they started up again, but have not been following since.
Plenty were open the whole time. And pretty sure they're all open now.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 14, 2020, 12:40:30 AM
Got an invitation to a wedding tonight in BK stating and I'm paraphrasing "Please enter from this entrance, and that the doors will be locked from 6-9 PM"
I was a wedding last week where they said the same thing but I don't believe the doors were ever locked.

There was actually someone taking temperatures at the door.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: erlich on September 14, 2020, 02:15:04 AM
We made a chasunah in BP two weeks ago and that night Cuomo's threats were being carried out. The manager of the hall was very nervous, showing us texts he was getting from managers of other BP halls (I believe four got shut down that night). Ours was not impacted. I heard that the next week at least one or two BP halls were either closed or not having indoor seating for meals. Possibly Cuomo lost interest and they started up again, but have not been following since.
מזל טוב
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 23, 2020, 10:24:02 AM
https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-scrambles-contain-ocean-parkway-cluster-covid-19-south-brooklyn

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: cgr on September 23, 2020, 08:20:30 PM
Not BP but a strong community response:

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0d3Jx3v/IMG-20200923-WA0021-149360097974532.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PvY8nmRQ)


(https://i.postimg.cc/GhHxr0dC/IMG-20200923-WA0020-149345552723548.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnF1BbJC)

Now if only they would ban large weddings...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 23, 2020, 11:34:33 PM
Not BP but a strong community response:

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0d3Jx3v/IMG-20200923-WA0021-149360097974532.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PvY8nmRQ)


(https://i.postimg.cc/GhHxr0dC/IMG-20200923-WA0020-149345552723548.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnF1BbJC)

Now if only they would ban large weddings...
Wedding season is over.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 23, 2020, 11:40:45 PM
Wedding season is over.
By Chassidim?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 23, 2020, 11:42:08 PM
By Chassidim?
CMIIW, I don't think anyone makes weddings during aseres yemei teshuva.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 23, 2020, 11:43:14 PM
CMIIW, I don't think anyone makes weddings during aseres yemei teshuva.
2 weeks pause means the wedding season is over?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 23, 2020, 11:44:40 PM
2 weeks pause means the wedding season is over?
It's at least 3 weeks until after sukkos. Now would definitely not be the time to talk about weddings.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: cgr on September 23, 2020, 11:48:40 PM
It's at least 3 weeks until after sukkos. Now would definitely not be the time to talk about weddings.

I hear that, although talking about it the day weddings restart is also not an option, and three weeks is ample time to make alternate arrangements.
From now til weddings restart there aren't so many days that they can make that announcement if they do want to...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 23, 2020, 11:55:19 PM
It's at least 3 weeks until after sukkos. Now would definitely not be the time to talk about weddings.

The people planning weddings definitely would want to hear what will be in 3 weeks.
And I don't think situation on the ground will be better by then.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 24, 2020, 10:03:50 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/nyc-threatens-to-shut-non-essential-businesses-if-covid-cases-rise/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 26, 2020, 07:50:33 PM
NY Post reporting 3 Orthodox men died from COVID at Maomonides in the past 4 days. BD"E.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 26, 2020, 08:03:42 PM
NY Post reporting 3 Orthodox men died from COVID at Maomonides in the past 4 days. BD"E.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/25/3-orthodox-jewish-men-die-of-covid-19-after-arriving-at-nyc-hospital/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 26, 2020, 08:27:02 PM
There can't be a second wave - everybody already had it.
The strain going around is more mild.
It's only dangerous for older people.

Three men from Orthodox Jewish communities who were admitted to Brooklynís Maimonides Medical Center over the past four days died within hours of arriving at the Borough Park facility, the New York Post reported Friday night, citing sources. According to the Post, the men who died were not senior citizens ó a demographic which is particularly susceptible.

Rabosai we have a problem!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 26, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
There can't be a second wave - everybody already had it.
The strain going around is more mild.
It's only dangerous for older people.

Three men from Orthodox Jewish communities who were admitted to Brooklynís Maimonides Medical Center over the past four days died within hours of arriving at the Borough Park facility, the New York Post reported Friday night, citing sources. According to the Post, the men who died were not all senior citizens ó a demographic which is particularly susceptible.

Rabosai we have a problem!

FTFY
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 26, 2020, 08:39:14 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/09/25/3-orthodox-jewish-men-die-of-covid-19-after-arriving-at-nyc-hospital/
Quote
all within hours of arriving at the hospital too sick to be saved
This must be why hatzolah in multiple communities put out letters recently telling people not to wait before going to the hospital.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 26, 2020, 08:45:44 PM
  This must be why hatzolah in multiple communities put out letters recently telling people not to wait before going to the hospital.
When it keeps going around that the strain is more mild...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 26, 2020, 08:50:55 PM
When it keeps going around that the strain is more mild...
It has more to do with the tag line that Maimonides killed all 400 patients then anything to do with a milder strain. If someone is very sick they arenít saying to themselves, oh itís mild. Rather they saw their cousins nephew say in a video no one would have died had Maimonides not killed them. 
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 26, 2020, 08:54:01 PM
It has more to do with the tag line that Maimonides killed all 400 patients then anything to do with a milder strain. If someone is very sick they arenít saying to themselves, oh itís mild. Rather they saw their cousins nephew say in a video no one would have died had Maimonides not killed them.
New york has many hospitals to choose from no?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 26, 2020, 08:57:21 PM
We're at the point where if shuls go with "business as usual" this Yom Kippur, the question isn't if people will die, it's how many.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 26, 2020, 08:57:26 PM
When it keeps going around that the strain is more mild...
It has more to do with the tag line that Maimonides killed all 400 patients then anything to do with a milder strain. If someone is very sick they arenít saying to themselves, oh itís mild. Rather they saw their cousins nephew say in a video no one would have died had Maimonides not killed them. 

Or it has to do with institutions sending out kol korehs that encourage intentionally skewing the numbers to keep the illusion that Covid isn't spiking.

It could be any of those three reasons. You know what they all have in common? Misinformation intentionally being spread in our communities, some of it sanctioned by leadership, and not government leadership.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 26, 2020, 09:07:59 PM
We're at the point where if shuls go with "business as usual" this Yom Kippur, the question isn't if people will die, it's how many.

Who died and made you god?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 26, 2020, 09:09:03 PM

Who died and made you god?

Don't know who made him G-d, but you probably should rephrase that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 26, 2020, 09:17:45 PM
NY Post reporting 3 Orthodox men died from COVID at Maomonides in the past 4 days. BD"E.

The article itself is fake news. Heard from reporters who tried to verify.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Pupashtetl on September 26, 2020, 09:24:50 PM
https://www.boropark24.com/news/multiple-sources-say-reports-of-deaths-at-maimonides-is-false
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: cmey on September 26, 2020, 09:51:59 PM
We're at the point where if shuls go with "business as usual" this Yom Kippur, the question isn't if people will die, it's how many.
Letís start a new fake rumor:
3 Orthodox Jews died minutes into Yom Kippur as they began fasting after testing positive contrary to Dr Ditcheks advice.

Whoops never mind. Yom Kippur didnít start yet.

Everyone take a breath and calm down.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: neveryou on September 26, 2020, 10:31:57 PM
https://www.boropark24.com/news/multiple-sources-say-reports-of-deaths-at-maimonides-is-false
And I thought the nypost was a little better than that,

I guess when it comes to bashing the jews, everybody's in on it
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: drosenberg88429 on September 26, 2020, 10:34:09 PM

Who died and made you god?

חכם עדיף מנביא
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: drosenberg88429 on September 26, 2020, 10:36:32 PM
And I thought the nypost was a little better than that,

I guess when it comes to bashing the jews, everybody's in on it

NY Post is as toilet paper tabloid as they get. It's not exactly the Times or WSJ.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on September 26, 2020, 10:41:41 PM
They are confirming uptick in cases, not confirming deaths.

ETA: I'm surprised people have such a hard time identifying fake news even when the disclaimer is out there in plain sight.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 26, 2020, 10:41:44 PM
And I thought the nypost was a little better than that,

I guess when it comes to bashing the jews, everybody's in on it
You should probably rethink your opinion of the post. Theyíre a total joke of a tabloid.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 26, 2020, 11:47:02 PM
חכם עדיף מנביא
A comment like that was neither.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: neveryou on September 27, 2020, 12:04:24 AM
NY Post is as toilet paper tabloid as they get. It's not exactly the Times or WSJ.
The times is not toilit paper???
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 27, 2020, 12:06:00 AM
The times is not toilit paper???
The Post is toilet paper. The Times is a waste of toilet paper
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on September 27, 2020, 12:07:37 AM
The times is not toilit paper???
Brand name toilet paper.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 27, 2020, 12:08:53 AM
Brand name toilet paper.
Welcome back
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 27, 2020, 12:11:28 AM
Brand name toilet paper.
Wow, welcome home!!!

Now, where's @CountValentine ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 27, 2020, 12:15:10 AM
Good to see you timt
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: JACKBLUE on September 27, 2020, 12:49:36 AM
Wow, welcome home!!!

Now, where's @CountValentine ?
and @hvaces42 ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 27, 2020, 12:59:55 AM
Gotamist is now also reporting the 3 covid deaths.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 27, 2020, 01:02:17 AM
Gotamist is now also reporting the 3 covid deaths.
Prob got it from the NYP
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 27, 2020, 01:06:26 AM
Gotamist is now also reporting the 3 covid deaths.

Quote
Three Orthodox men have died at Maimonides Hospital in south Brooklyn over four days, according to a source close to the community.

Looks like someone is trying to stir up trouble. This is only going to cause people in frum communities to trust the press less. And because we're winning at nuance, the doctors and authority figures and anyone else who is ever quoted by the press.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: myi on September 27, 2020, 03:13:45 AM
Brand name toilet paper.
Welcome Home TimT. You were missed!
It's been a while!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: VacationLover on September 27, 2020, 08:13:10 AM
Apparently, the majority of people in Boro Park are ready for another shutdown, having the kids home etc.

Why after so many urgent pleas, most people are still not wearing masks?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 27, 2020, 08:53:45 AM
https://abc7ny.com/queens-wedding-busted-woodside/6584429/

For all those who wonder why people think the Jews are being targeted, I guarantee that you wonít hear a peep out of the mayors mouth about this.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on September 27, 2020, 08:54:49 AM
Why after so many urgent pleas, most people are still not wearing masks?
כלנו חכמים, כלנו נבונים, כלנו דקטורים, וכו
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 27, 2020, 11:13:40 AM
Didnít Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didnít seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 27, 2020, 11:19:09 AM
Didnít Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didnít seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html
Where do you think they picked it up? Itís not a coincidence that it correlates with an outbreak in the greater frum community.. this just emphasizes how important it is for *everyone* to use seichel, because things donít happen in a vacuum.

Come on, you know better than that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 27, 2020, 11:55:37 AM
Didnít Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didnít seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html
Sounds like they allowed an out of towner to come daven for R"H
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 27, 2020, 11:59:41 AM
Sounds like they allowed an out of towner to come daven for R"H
If 50 people got it, it  sounds like they tried to make a "bubble", but obviously someone from outside came in.

Also, from what I understand, many yeshivas are keeping the talmideim in a bubble and are not requiring masks and distancing on campus, but still have rabbeim coming in and out, which means things like this are likely to happen.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 27, 2020, 01:05:57 PM
Ner Yisroel does require masks for the bochurim. Believe it or not, it is possible to spread the disease even if everyone is wearing masks. It may limit the likelihood but it doesnít make it that it canít spread. I know many people who were ďcarefulĒ and wore masks and still got it. Do people really believe that only non mask-wearers are getting the disease?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 27, 2020, 01:06:58 PM
Ner Yisroel does require masks for the bochurim. Believe it or not, it is possible to spread the disease even if everyone is wearing masks. It may limit the likelihood but it doesnít make it that it canít spread. I know many people who were ďcarefulĒ and wore masks and still got it. Do people really believe that only non mask-wearers are getting the disease?
Of course not. But for a group of 50 to get it without realizing, something must have gone wrong.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 27, 2020, 01:23:58 PM
Ner Yisroel does require masks for the bochurim. Believe it or not, it is possible to spread the disease even if everyone is wearing masks. It may limit the likelihood but it doesnít make it that it canít spread. I know many people who were ďcarefulĒ and wore masks and still got it. Do people really believe that only non mask-wearers are getting the disease?

You have the mechanics of masks all wrong
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 27, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
I've seen a lot of rabbeim (in general at many yeshivas) either wearing nothing, or only a face shield, which is basically useless when used without a mask.

If the maggid shuir, who is usually speaking loudly and projecting, isn't wearing a mask, it's likely to spread if he were contagious as masks primary protects others.

Of course, none of this is to say that any single precaution such as masks is foolproof.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 27, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
You have the mechanics of masks all wrong

Please explain
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 27, 2020, 02:22:04 PM
Please explain
As always, the question is not whether the ones who got it were wearing masks, but whether the spreaders were.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 27, 2020, 02:32:19 PM
As always, the question is not whether the ones who got it were wearing masks, but whether the spreaders were.

Everyone in Ner Yisroel was wearing masks. I thought that was clear.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 27, 2020, 02:45:42 PM
Everyone in Ner Yisroel was wearing masks. I thought that was clear.
They sleep in masks?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 27, 2020, 02:50:59 PM
Everyone in Ner Yisroel was wearing masks. I thought that was clear.
Don't know about Ner Yisroel. I think @aygart was commenting on


Do people really believe that only non mask-wearers are getting the disease?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Sport on September 27, 2020, 02:56:18 PM
Everyone in Ner Yisroel was wearing masks. I thought that was clear.
This is false
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 27, 2020, 03:00:13 PM
They sleep in masks?

They even shower with masks. It must be that Hashem wanted them to get it and as smart as anyone wants to be His Will is His Will.

They did a concerted effort of hishtadlus - not at all just lip service. Yet the general reaction here is they must have not done their hishtadlus. The assumption of guilt and willingness to lay blame is much more dangerous than COVID.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 27, 2020, 04:16:03 PM
They even shower with masks. It must be that Hashem wanted them to get it and as smart as anyone wants to be His Will is His Will.

They did a concerted effort of hishtadlus - not at all just lip service. Yet the general reaction here is they must have not done their hishtadlus. The assumption of guilt and willingness to lay blame is much more dangerous than COVID.
I have not seen such a general reaction on this forum
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 28, 2020, 10:56:29 PM
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 28, 2020, 10:58:23 PM
So after not keeping any guidelines, now you expect them to work with you? Color me cynical...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 28, 2020, 10:59:24 PM
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 28, 2020, 10:59:34 PM
If half as much effort was going into preventing the spread of the virus as effort going into preventing shutdowns...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 28, 2020, 11:00:53 PM

Completely nonsensical.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 28, 2020, 11:15:28 PM
Completely nonsensical.
Really? 140 tests in Boro park yesterday is a low number to consider it an outbreak
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 28, 2020, 11:15:42 PM
Everyone in Ner Yisroel was wearing masks. I thought that was clear.

My wife says she heard

Quote
There was a bubble of protection until someone opted to break it by letting an outsider daven there for yom tov. Large groups were together, unmasked singing and davening for hours with a covid positive individual.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 28, 2020, 11:18:02 PM
My wife says she heard
Mentioned earlier
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 28, 2020, 11:21:15 PM
Mentioned earlier
Yet not acknowledged by the one member who has claimed the outbreak is despite all of the precautions being kept
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 28, 2020, 11:27:20 PM
Yet not acknowledged by the one member who has claimed the outbreak is despite all of the precautions being kept
If it was me it was probably referring to the fact that the lack of leadership in other communities was being blamed yet leadership in Baltimore did their best but still werenít able to prevent an outbreak.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 28, 2020, 11:27:21 PM
Yet not acknowledged by the one member who has claimed the outbreak is despite all of the precautions being kept
Facts are meaningless to someone who chooses to ignore them.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 28, 2020, 11:28:51 PM
Really? 140 tests in Boro park yesterday is a low number to consider it an outbreak

A) Do you really want them digging in to the real numbers in BP?
B) Positivity rate just tells you trend and possible prevalence. It's not going to be the determining factor in declaring an outbreak. Triple the previous numbers says concerning things, and the requests made by CB-12 don't change anything. The request is nonsensical.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: AsherO on September 28, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
Completely nonsensical.

If 3.5% is just symptomatic people, I shudder to think what the real numbers are RĒL.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 28, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
If it was me it was probably referring to the fact that the lack of leadership in other communities was being blamed yet leadership in Baltimore did their best but still werenít able to prevent an outbreak.

1- It wasnít you

2- Allowing a COVID+ outsider into a bubble with unmasked and non-socially distant chanting and singing in a crowded room isnít quite ďdoing their bestĒ
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 28, 2020, 11:38:59 PM
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 28, 2020, 11:40:17 PM

This kills me.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 28, 2020, 11:40:21 PM
If 3.5% is just symptomatic people, I shudder to think what the real numbers are RĒL.
Itís an absurd tayna. What in the world makes them think the demographic testing in BP is any different than elsewhere (the mix of people symptomatic, exposed, or testing for other reasons)?

Does the person who wrote that tweet think itís a coherent argument?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 28, 2020, 11:41:03 PM
Where, pray tell, do you get your medical cues from?!
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: AsherO on September 28, 2020, 11:43:17 PM
Itís an absurd tayna. What in the world makes them think the demographic testing in BP is any different than elsewhere (the mix of people symptomatic, exposed, or testing for other reasons)?

Does the person who wrote that tweet think itís a coherent argument?

If nobody is testing because testing is highly discouraged to prevent a lockdown, then it doesnít sound so implausible.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 28, 2020, 11:44:47 PM
If nobody is testing because testing is highly discouraged to prevent a lockdown, then it doesnít sound so implausible.
If nobody is testing because testing is highly discouraged then total positive numbers should go down. Why would percent positivity be impacted? Whoever is still testing is still testing.

Regardless, I highly doubt the argument being made is that ďThe rate is low/high because testing is discouraged, so you should let us do our thingĒ
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 29, 2020, 12:08:53 AM
If it was me it was probably referring to the fact that the lack of leadership in other communities was being blamed yet leadership in Baltimore did their best but still werenít able to prevent an outbreak.
Difference between community wide outbreak and one local bubble that didn't hold
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shmoe joe on September 29, 2020, 12:49:01 AM
The reason we they have such high numbers is because the only people testing are the people with symptoms. So thereís 2 solutions either everyone starts testing or no one should test and whoever has symptoms should just quarantine.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on September 29, 2020, 12:59:08 AM
The reason we they have such high numbers is because the only people testing are the people with symptoms.
Are you saying that the rest of the state is everyone or no one ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 29, 2020, 01:05:14 AM
The reason we they have such high numbers is because the only people testing are the people with symptoms. So thereís 2 solutions either everyone starts testing or no one should test and whoever has symptoms should just quarantine.

Or, and bear with me here, the numbers are high because... the numbers are actually high.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 29, 2020, 01:12:40 AM
You can try saying what ever you want fact is we didn't hear anything about covid for a while and all of a sudden we have 40+ positives in our shull, most of them went to test because they had symptoms which was unheard of a month ago
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 29, 2020, 01:44:04 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/09/28/large-groups-of-people-without-masks-gather-in-bklyn-covid-hot-zones/
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 29, 2020, 01:47:24 AM
Attacking reporters will endear you to the press (not)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on September 29, 2020, 02:13:48 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/09/28/large-groups-of-people-without-masks-gather-in-bklyn-covid-hot-zones/
Wow interesting that the infection rate in Williamsburg is below the city's average.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Ergel on September 29, 2020, 07:55:01 AM
Didnít Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didnít seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html
A bochur went home for Rosh Hashannah against yeshiva policy and brought it back
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 08:18:42 AM
Didnít Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didnít seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html

I don't know what book Ner Yisroel is doing things by, and I'd have to assume that HS and BM have different policies, but HS has made some questionable calls. As of last week, they were requiring attendance after testing until results came back. FWIU, this included symptomatic students (at least one that I know of). I  don't know how much interaction, if any, there has been between HS and BM.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 29, 2020, 09:14:49 AM
A bochur went home for Rosh Hashannah against yeshiva policy and brought it back
Thatís kind of the point. Thereís a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didnít want to miss a yomim noraim davening.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 29, 2020, 09:22:22 AM
Thatís kind of the point. Thereís a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didnít want to miss a yomim noraim davening.
How many had strict signage and how many had strict policies is sadly a big discrepancy
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 09:29:21 AM
Thatís kind of the point. Thereís a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didnít want to miss a yomim noraim davening.

You understand how much the silence and lack of guidance over the last few months plays a part in this, right? People have been hearing every excuse in the book about why precautions don't need to be taken and a general attitude of pretending the virus doesn't exist for months. You can't expect them to turn on a dime and magically take it seriously, especially when there has been a lack of unity or clarity in the current guidelines.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 29, 2020, 12:54:44 PM
You understand how much the silence and lack of guidance over the last few months plays a part in this, right? People have been hearing every excuse in the book about why precautions don't need to be taken and a general attitude of pretending the virus doesn't exist for months. You can't expect them to turn on a dime and magically take it seriously, especially when there has been a lack of unity or clarity in the current guidelines.
I heard personally from a Rov of a Shul on Erev Yom Kippur who told me that wearing a mask in shul is wrong because it doesn't make Shul feel welcoming and therefore he will not even recommend wearing a mask in Shul. Doctors only say that masks are required in public but when you ask them privately they'll tell you not to wear them. He also saw someone who wears a mask do something that he wouldn't do so therefore that's proof that it's all a "mishagas" anyways. :o :o :o

I was so dumfounded that an otherwise intelligent person can utter such nonsense I didn't even know where to start. It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.   
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Eb228 on September 29, 2020, 01:02:21 PM
I heard personally from a Rov of a Shul on Erev Yom Kippur who told me that wearing a mask in shul is wrong because it doesn't make Shul feel welcoming and therefore he will not even recommend wearing a mask in Shul. Doctors only say that masks are required in public but when you ask them privately they'll tell you not to wear them. He also saw someone who wears a mask do something that he wouldn't do so therefore that's proof that it's all a "mishagas" anyways. :o :o :o

I was so dumfounded that an otherwise intelligent person can utter such nonsense I didn't even know where to start. It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.   

"Hashem sometimes blinds the righteous so as to be able to carry out His will. There may be a Gezariah and to clothe it in Teva our leaders are being blinded to not say anything to stop it."
- Heard
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 01:05:16 PM
It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.

Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 29, 2020, 01:31:19 PM
Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
He actually quoted Rav Shmuel Kamenitsky and the "Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva" as his source for such a position - I don't know this to be true or not.

My personal feeling is that after Purim all the Shuls were shut down because no one really knew how the virus was transmitted and what was safe and what wasn't. There is a certain segment that feels that because the pendulum was swung to far to one side (which in hindsight it was) so now even with the virus starting to spiral out of control they have swung the pendulum to the extreme other side and refuse to budge to some sort of middle ground because they were "forced" to shut the Shuls in March/April and this now makes up for that somehow.
   
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Euclid on September 29, 2020, 01:34:45 PM
He actually quoted Rav Shmuel Kamenitsky and some of the "Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva" as his source for such a position - I don't know this to be true or not.   
FTFH. They are most definitely not on the same page about this.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on September 29, 2020, 01:59:00 PM
My personal feeling is that after Purim all the Shuls were shut down because no one really knew how the virus was transmitted and what was safe and what wasn't. There is a certain segment that feels that because the pendulum was swung to far to one side (which in hindsight it was) so now even with the virus starting to spiral out of control they have swung the pendulum to the extreme other side and refuse to budge to some sort of middle ground because they were "forced" to shut the Shuls in March/April and this now makes up for that somehow.
 
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 29, 2020, 02:01:13 PM
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.
Agreed. However, this shouldn't even need leadership. What happened to common sense?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 02:04:09 PM
Agreed. However, this shouldn't even need leadership. What happened to common sense?

Common sense was never as common as the phrase suggests.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Traveler718 on September 29, 2020, 02:31:50 PM
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.


I have in mind the lack of clear guidance and leadership on these issues when saying the words השיבה שופטינו כבראשונה ויועציך כבתחילה והסר ממנו יגון ואנחה.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on September 29, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: David61 on September 29, 2020, 04:33:08 PM
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.

I disagree with that comment, both in spirit and in fact. The concept of Rosh Yeshiva began in Voloshin, and it could be argued that role represented a higher level of scholarship than the average local Rov.

In any event this pandemic is a very unique situation where there is tremendous confusion in metzius. Rarely does a medical issue become so political, involve so much false information, evolve so quickly, or reach this level of controversy in society, and therefore in halachic decision making.

There does however appear to be a correlation between "communities with respect for secular education" and "communities with a unified rule making rabbinic body" and the communities that have been closely "following the guidance by the conventional medical opinion".

Perhaps part of our nisayon is to not allow this to undermine respect for our leaders.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 29, 2020, 04:44:08 PM
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.

Very interesting that you say this;

My Rav is the Rav of a very large shul and daily fields hundreds of questions.

His father was the Rav of one of the larger communities in brooklyn and av beis din.

There was always from the beginning, clear medical guidance and advice.

I know I often come off as porek ohl, but I'm frustrated in general at people who both refuse to adapt citing mesora and as well just make up new things and ignoring mesora.

The ben sorer umoreh is described as naval birshut hatorah. If he ate trayf meat, it wouldn't apply.

If one stands in rabbinic authority, they need to understand the situation before paskening.

Gone are the days when it's about bringing your chicken to the Rav, it's about being a manhig.

"But my Rav doesn't involve himself in outside shtusim"

What kind of Rav is this ?!? Yes we made parallel to the situation in Europe in 1938.

There was tons and tons of evidence to support precautions, there was even more unknowns which should have raised a flag of simply "well, it's a shema or a bari or whatever, err on the side of caution"

So many members in this forum trashed me, said I have no idea what I'm talking about etc .

Maybe I don't, all I advised, was caution.

Sure I find the mask uncomfortable, it fogs up my glasses (I can't really understand why anyone needs glasses during shul.. unless you're blind as a bat without them or nearsighted)

I saw many people make real efforts, one guy wore a mask over his mouth but not nose, rather than half doing it, he wears a plastic face shield too.

Reminds me too of th sign I saw in this coffee shop bathroom "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and under it

"You too, don't be gross"

Oh wow! Washing your hands with soap or using sanitizer is Soo bad! Maybe it goes with the chareidi prohibition against showers ?

Watching the elderly generation of rabbanim and carriers of mesora die out, is sad

Reminds me of Rav matisyahu solomon speech at (11th?) Siyum hashas 

I remember very clearly how Rav solomon said "if all the roshey yeshivas, if all the talmeidei chachamim, if all the ehrliche yidden were still alive, imagine how much more tangible our mesora would be"

What's wrong with a Rav saying "we don't know . Err on the side of caution?!?!"

When did yiddishkeit become about being comftarble? Are they extending these leniency to all sheilos?

Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 29, 2020, 04:58:03 PM
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ari3 on September 29, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 29, 2020, 06:32:07 PM
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.
Wearing masks and distancing doesn't seem to detract from davening...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ari3 on September 29, 2020, 06:42:18 PM
Wearing masks and distancing doesn't seem to detract from davening...
Masks sure do. Distancing is also a practical problem, with shuls packed yomim noraim where are you going to distance. Some places (like Chaim Berlin and others) made extra minyonim to spread things out but that still doesn't get proper distancing,
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 06:45:33 PM
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.

This is false. If it were solely about the importance of Torah u'Tefilah, you would see strict adherence to safety measures outside of those venues, and even a number of measures within those activities, up to the point of taking away from the davening and learning. This is not the case. The rabbonim have effectively paskened that Covid is not a medical concern b'shum oifen. And herein lies my question: where is the mesorah that allows for rabbonim to override medical mandate? What is the basis in halacha?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 29, 2020, 06:54:49 PM
Masks sure do.
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 29, 2020, 07:02:09 PM
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
If only masks were brought down as a chumra in the Mishnah Berura.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yelped on September 29, 2020, 07:10:27 PM
I think this circles back to what people called Rabbanim today and what Rabbonim actually are. :-X
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: drosenberg88429 on September 29, 2020, 07:11:32 PM
If only masks were brought down as a chumra in the Mishnah Berura.

It is. Didn't help. The mishnah berura only brings it down regarding a disease going around, and everyone knows COVID is a hoax and there's nothing going around. 🙄
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Luvisrael on September 29, 2020, 07:15:38 PM
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: dasmo801 on September 29, 2020, 07:19:21 PM
This is false. If it were solely about the importance of Torah u'Tefilah, you would see strict adherence to safety measures outside of those venues, and even a number of measures within those activities, up to the point of taking away from the davening and learning. This is not the case. The rabbonim have effectively paskened that Covid is not a medical concern b'shum oifen. And herein lies my question: where is the mesorah that allows for rabbonim to override medical mandate? What is the basis in halacha?

It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 29, 2020, 07:20:54 PM
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing
There are plenty of solutions that don't restrict breathing.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 29, 2020, 07:21:08 PM
It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.
And if we limit the crowd sizes for weddings, people might think covid is dangerous.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 29, 2020, 07:22:54 PM
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 29, 2020, 07:23:07 PM
Masks sure do.

Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 29, 2020, 07:33:27 PM
Masks sure do.
To say that this was part of their psak is sheker gamur and putting words in their mouth to bend the halacha to what you find to be convenient. Now what your complaint about the MO?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 29, 2020, 07:34:56 PM
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.


You are overdoing this to the point that you are not being honest with yourself.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on September 29, 2020, 07:45:17 PM
and uncomfortable hats
Are you referring to the ďshteimelĒ that the Bobobovitch rabbi wears ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1310977907779661829
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: drosenberg88429 on September 29, 2020, 07:45:46 PM
Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.

I'll be honest with you. Masks barely bother me breathing wise personally, but I see they do bother and affect some people tremendously. I don't think they're just being drama queens- I think it legitimately affects different people very differently. I'm not saying that people shouldn't wear masks if it bothers them, but dismissing their discomfort out of hand because it doesn't affect you that way does not seem right to me. (It took me a bit to realize this also, that some people legitimately can barely handle certain masks. Different people's bodies are designed differently.)
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 29, 2020, 07:49:37 PM
It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 07:59:21 PM
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.

This is not that, and I know that you know that. Bringing it up dumps a heavy dose of intellectual dishonesty into a conversation that doesn't need any more of it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SayWhat on September 29, 2020, 08:00:18 PM
And if we limit the crowd sizes for weddings, people might think covid is dangerous.
If we limit the size of weddings, people might not spend money they don't have to impress people they don't like.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on September 29, 2020, 08:01:40 PM
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing

Restrict your breathing? Are you wearing a gas mask, or something else that is not air permeable?

I wore a cloth mask while laining both days on RH (outdoors) and it certainly gets warm, but I switched to a KN95 while davening and immediately felt cooler.

I wore a cloth mask laining on YK morning (indoors) and felt a bit warm when I started laining, but by shlishi it was back to normal. I again switched to the KN95 after finishing and had the immediate cooling.

I actually forgot to change out of the KN95 for laining at mincha (oops) and that was the only time that I felt stifled, but that was a short laining.

You really need to experiment with masks in a non-davening setting and see what works for you.

If I was the Baal Mussaf/Shacharis I don't know if I could have done a mask for 2-3 hrs of straight chazanus, but for laining on an average Shabbos (I've been on every second or third Shabbos since Shavuous) and giving a daf shiur, I can't say that I felt that my breathing was restricted in a surgical or cloth mask.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 29, 2020, 08:02:45 PM
Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.
+1 for me and +20 for the entire minyan I davened with.
And I was the shaliach tzibbur for shachris.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 29, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
I'll be honest with you. Masks barely bother me breathing wise personally, but I see they do bother and affect some people tremendously. I don't think they're just being drama queens- I think it legitimately affects different people very differently. I'm not saying that people shouldn't wear masks if it bothers them, but dismissing their discomfort out of hand because it doesn't affect you that way does not seem right to me. (It took me a bit to realize this also, that some people legitimately can barely handle certain masks. Different people's bodies are designed differently.)

It's not about dismissing their comfort, it's about finding a middle ground that works. We do it with all kinds of religious obligations- yarmulkas, tzitzis, hats, jackets/bekeshes, hair coverings and stockings for women - there are always alternatives to dropping it completely. To throw a tantrum about the discomfort instead of finding ways to make it work is akin to Yehuda57's toddler crying about wearing socks. It's irrational.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 29, 2020, 08:10:12 PM
I took a few "mask breaks" by going 20 ft away from the (outdoor) minyan. It's a worthwhile sacrifice.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 29, 2020, 08:17:19 PM
I'll be honest with you. Masks barely bother me breathing wise personally, but I see they do bother and affect some people tremendously. I don't think they're just being drama queens- I think it legitimately affects different people very differently. I'm not saying that people shouldn't wear masks if it bothers them, but dismissing their discomfort out of hand because it doesn't affect you that way does not seem right to me. (It took me a bit to realize this also, that some people legitimately can barely handle certain masks. Different people's bodies are designed differently.)

I literally used to say this exact spiel because I felt like I couldn't breathe. But after switching from cotton and KN95s to better disposable masks and concentrating on breathing, it became tolerable and eventually I'm totally fine with it. How many potential surgeons do you know who dropped out of med school because they couldn't handle the mask?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 29, 2020, 08:21:52 PM
I literally used to say this exact spiel because I felt like I couldn't breathe. But after switching from cotton and KN95s to better disposable masks and concentrating on breathing, it became tolerable and eventually I'm totally fine with it. How many potential surgeons do you know who dropped out of med school because they couldn't handle the mask?
I think a lot has to do with practicing proper breathing methods. Breathing in deeply through the nose will do much better.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yard sale on September 29, 2020, 08:32:09 PM
You are overdoing this to the point that you are not being honest with yourself.
Itís a complicated sugya. Itís dishonest to cast it as black and white. Iím not saying I buy into the other position.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: EliJelly on September 29, 2020, 08:33:23 PM
Are you referring to the ďshteimelĒ that the Bobobovitch rabbi wears ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1310977907779661829
Lol!
When the goy is hearing so much Lubovitch, Bovov never had a chance ;D
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 29, 2020, 08:45:27 PM
It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.
Nominated
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 29, 2020, 09:13:53 PM
Yet not acknowledged by the one member who has claimed the outbreak is despite all of the precautions being kept

If it was me it was probably referring to the fact that the lack of leadership in other communities was being blamed yet leadership in Baltimore did their best but still werenít able to prevent an outbreak.

It was me. They took many precautions in the bubble model, where only people with negative tests were supposed to be allowed in. They had rules and someone/people broke them, which may have been the source of infection. It could have been other source or sources as well, there wasn't contact tracing to pinpoint the definitive source. I have heard several different "breaches which were the source".

They did not institute masks until after the outbreak, when it obviously was too late.



Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Dan on September 29, 2020, 10:11:03 PM
Masks sure do. Distancing is also a practical problem, with shuls packed yomim noraim where are you going to distance. Some places (like Chaim Berlin and others) made extra minyonim to spread things out but that still doesn't get proper distancing,

Try a mask bracket?
https://amzn.to/3hZRYTT

https://www.today.com/shop/face-brackets-masks-t190588
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 29, 2020, 10:14:10 PM
I know a few offices in BP that closed due to covid-19 spread
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 29, 2020, 11:48:07 PM
It's not about dismissing their comfort, it's about finding a middle ground that works. We do it with all kinds of religious obligations- yarmulkas, tzitzis, hats, jackets/bekeshes, hair coverings and stockings for women - there are always alternatives to dropping it completely. To throw a tantrum about the discomfort instead of finding ways to make it work is akin to Yehuda57's toddler crying about wearing socks. It's irrational.
Maybe you aren't dismissing it, but just a few posts up we had this:
Restrict your breathing? Are you wearing a gas mask, or something else that is not air permeable?

I wore a cloth mask while laining both days on RH (outdoors) and it certainly gets warm, but I switched to a KN95 while davening and immediately felt cooler.

I wore a cloth mask laining on YK morning (indoors) and felt a bit warm when I started laining, but by shlishi it was back to normal. I again switched to the KN95 after finishing and had the immediate cooling.

I actually forgot to change out of the KN95 for laining at mincha (oops) and that was the only time that I felt stifled, but that was a short laining.

You really need to experiment with masks in a non-davening setting and see what works for you.

If I was the Baal Mussaf/Shacharis I don't know if I could have done a mask for 2-3 hrs of straight chazanus, but for laining on an average Shabbos (I've been on every second or third Shabbos since Shavuous) and giving a daf shiur, I can't say that I felt that my breathing was restricted in a surgical or cloth mask.
Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
Wearing masks and distancing doesn't seem to detract from davening...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 29, 2020, 11:52:26 PM
Maybe you aren't dismissing it, but just a few posts up we had this:
Can we agree that in communities where mask wearing is prevalent there seems to be a lower incidence of complaints and vice versa?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 29, 2020, 11:55:47 PM
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.


Moshiach should come, but just because leadership disagrees with your opinion, doesn't mean that it's absent.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 29, 2020, 11:57:30 PM
Moshiach should come, but just because leadership disagrees with your opinion, doesn't mean that it's absent.
Iím not sure you know what his opinion is, and his comment did not shed light on that.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on September 29, 2020, 11:58:41 PM
Can we agree that in communities where mask wearing is prevalent there seems to be a lower incidence of complaints and vice versa?
Compaints or not don't change the facts.

What I do know as fact is when I flew and had to wear a mask, there were a few times I started getting a serious headache (usually after "wrestling" with my kids). As soon as I took off my mask it started getting better. After happening a couple of times I noticed the pattern...

For anyone to say "it doesn't restrict breathing" is utter nonsense.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Moshe123 on September 29, 2020, 11:59:43 PM
Iím not sure you know what his opinion is, and his comment did not shed light on that.

It was more a general comment and not really intended only as a reply to him.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 30, 2020, 12:31:37 AM
Compaints or not don't change the facts.

What I do know as fact is when I flew and had to wear a mask, there were a few times I started getting a serious headache (usually after "wrestling" with my kids). As soon as I took off my mask it started getting better. After happening a couple of times I noticed the pattern...

For anyone to say "it doesn't restrict breathing" is utter nonsense.
It is also possible that you are from a small cohort of people that it has an outsized impact on
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: ckmk47 on September 30, 2020, 12:36:05 AM
Compaints or not don't change the facts.

What I do know as fact is when I flew and had to wear a mask, there were a few times I started getting a serious headache (usually after "wrestling" with my kids). As soon as I took off my mask it started getting better. After happening a couple of times I noticed the pattern...

For anyone to say "it doesn't restrict breathing" is utter nonsense.
Use a thinner mask.  An N95 filters much more closely than a regular surgical one.  A cloth one allows even more air through.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yesitsme on September 30, 2020, 12:41:46 AM
I was forced to wear a mask yk, it was very hard in the beginning, I found that if its adjusted  properly its not that bad,
make sure its not to small on you
Don't let it hang over your ear, it should be the closest to the skin of your face
Stick in a tissue on top of your nose to block your glasses from getting foggy
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: gozalim on September 30, 2020, 12:58:45 AM
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.
+1
Can't say specific to this issue, and it's not across the board of chareidi communities, but there absolutely is a specific manhigus that's specific to the shimush/siyata dishmaya/experience of one who is actively involved in מורה הוראה בפועל And involved directly with the tzibur on a regular basis. The Rosh yeshiva may indeed be orders of magnitude more scholarly, but that does not, in itself, make him a מורה הוראה בפועל
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 30, 2020, 01:20:08 AM
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.

You forgot how the story with chazon ish always ends, they didnít do the procedure and the guy survived. They did the procedure the way he said to do it, and he survived. And these are very relevant stories that Iím glad you brought to light, because the outcome teaches us the moral of the story, if the guy died, then the moral of the story is pretty worthless.

Now if I may oblige, how many of the rabbonim you are relying on correctly predicted the outcome of the 1st wave but are saying the 2nd wave is nothing to worry about?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 01:28:34 AM
Can we agree that in communities where mask wearing is prevalent there seems to be a lower incidence of complaints and vice versa?

I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people donít complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didnít feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 30, 2020, 01:44:13 AM
I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people donít complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didnít feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

The problem with your last paragraph - masks are warranted before people need to wear them. Like Iíve said many times, the more serious we take COVID, the more of a joke it will be. The less serious we treat it, the worse things will turn out. Better to overreact then to not react at all.

Personally speaking - Iím fine with wearing a mask wherever I feel it required to. Donít feel they are extremely difficult to wear but obviously if I can do without I would prefer that. If I need a breather, move off to the side and open my mask to breathe. In my office I take it off when Iím alone and no one is around. On Yom kippur I was a chazzan with a mask on most of the day, unless no one was around. Wasnít too bad.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 01:59:58 AM
Understand that is your position.

Mine is when there are virtually no cases for 5 months masks are not what is making the difference. It was the lack of virus. And when someone got it they stayed home and so did their family. What changed the equation is when the virus did come and people with symptoms didnít want to inconvenience themselves and still sent their kids to camp then school and came to shul and didnít want to get tested because of the inconvenience if they were found positive, etc. Now we have a wave and some Shuls are having to close, at least indoors for now.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 30, 2020, 02:08:05 AM
I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people donít complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didnít feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

Masks doesn't seem to be preventing people from talking to each other.

Yes, when I take off the mask it seems to geshmak.

But it's still childish, I hate wearing a bicycle helmet, it makes me sweat and I love the breeze in my hair ..

Any Rav or Rosh yeshiva that doesn't understand community spread, brings up bigger issues.

Is there concern if community members say "Rabbi, I find it hard to daven with a mask on"

And so they say, don't wear a mask, rather than people rushing through davening or staying home.

What if I say, Rabbi, I find it hard to walk to shul on Shabbat, you ok with me driving ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 02:39:00 AM
The question was ďdo people complain in mask wearing communities?Ē, to which I responded ďYESĒ. I was not saying, ďand therefore they shouldnít wear themď.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someoneís ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasnít or in the future wonít be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didnít/wonít agree they are warranted.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 30, 2020, 07:04:06 AM
The question was ďdo people complain in mask wearing communities?Ē, to which I responded ďYESĒ. I was not saying, ďand therefore they shouldnít wear themď.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someoneís ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasnít or in the future wonít be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didnít/wonít agree they are warranted.
The issue is that the decision to not wear masks wasn't rescinded until there were already hundreds of new cases (and in some places, still hasn't been rescinded).

If you don't keep it up, it's very hard to stop the wave. That's why the first wave was so bad +we were caught off guard.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on September 30, 2020, 07:13:56 AM
The question was ďdo people complain in mask wearing communities?Ē, to which I responded ďYESĒ. I was not saying, ďand therefore they shouldnít wear themď.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someoneís ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasnít or in the future wonít be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didnít/wonít agree they are warranted.

I hear what you're saying. Here's the one variable you're missing: presymptomatic spread. One guy comes to a shul where masks aren't worn, and you can have 100 cases in a day.

The problem with preventive measures is that it is very hard to quantify their success. By definition, if they are successful, you will not see the fruits of your hardships. A big reason that Baltimore managed to stay relatively healthy is, like you said, when someone presented with symptoms, the family stayed home. A bigger reason is because when that sick person was presymptomatic, s/he was in a community where masks are very prevalent in public settings, so the spread was minimized during that person's most dangerous phase. If your community hadn't gone through all that "unnecessary" discomfort, there's a high likelihood your first major outbreak would have happened already.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: chevron on September 30, 2020, 08:02:03 AM
Holy smokes!

https://collive.com/mask-patrols-to-fine-people-without-masks-in-nyc/

Reading the comments here and WOW it's like so many believe covif is fake?!?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: SSLPhD on September 30, 2020, 08:03:06 AM
Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someoneís ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.
On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on September 30, 2020, 08:27:47 AM
Understand that is your position.

Mine is when there are virtually no cases for 5 months masks are not what is making the difference. It was the lack of virus. And when someone got it they stayed home and so did their family. What changed the equation is when the virus did come and people with symptoms didnít want to inconvenience themselves and still sent their kids to camp then school and came to shul and didnít want to get tested because of the inconvenience if they were found positive, etc. Now we have a wave and some Shuls are having to close, at least indoors for now.
I generally agree with this.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 30, 2020, 08:30:44 AM


so many believe covfefe is fake?!?

Ftfy
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yitzgar on September 30, 2020, 08:32:01 AM
On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.
+ in addition to many who feel unable to come to shul to begin with (whether high-risk individuals or not), because of a lack of mask wearing etc.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 30, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.

If God wanted us to have perfect kavana then He wouldnít have brought us a disease that requires wearing masks in shul to prevent transmission. But He did, and itís a nisayon that He wants us to overcome. Same for davening in a small minyan for RH/YK instead of a huge packed roaring minyan. He wants to see us to do our best despite the circumstances, not to ignore them completely.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: aygart on September 30, 2020, 09:23:12 AM
I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people donít complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didnít feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.
I respect that you were able to adjust your position due to changing facts on the ground, something so many others have been unable to do in either directing.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Sam Finkelstein on September 30, 2020, 09:35:40 AM
https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-how-orthodox-jews-can-attack-covid-20200929-dvjiqgvrkbdhhix5kib5gzfzdi-story.html
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: iwlw2 on September 30, 2020, 09:37:37 AM
And that's really the core of this. People seem unable (on both sides) to a) adapt their thinking and actions in response to changing circumstances (and accept the facts of those changing circumstances) and b) allow their brains to mature to the point where things are not all binary choices, it does not have to be all or nothing, even some people wearing masks some of the time is better than nothing. It's not about trusting/believing/knowing that mask wearing etc. is absolutely the end all be all or that we have to all stay locked up in our hermetically-sealed basements to survive, you do what you can to mitigate the risk to yourself and others as much as you can, certainly when it does not involve undue hardships. And sorry, being a little uncomfortable when wearing a mask does not rise to the level of undue hardships. And for those that really can't take it, take breaks or take it off every once in a while, it will still be helpful when you are able to wear it. Is this not simple and logical???
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 30, 2020, 09:52:27 AM
Yup yup yup
People need to give themselves permission to reevaluate the situation no matter how firmly they may have dug their heels in.

If your closely held beliefs are out of touch with reality and if hearing anything to the contrary makes you mad and causes you to become overly defensive and aggressive about your position, take a deep calming breath and allow new information to enter your brain. Nobody will judge you for changing your mind due to changing circumstances.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 11:12:00 AM
If God wanted us to have perfect kavana then He wouldnít have brought us a disease that requires wearing masks in shul to prevent transmission. But He did, and itís a nisayon that He wants us to overcome. Same for davening in a small minyan for RH/YK instead of a huge packed roaring minyan. He wants to see us to do our best despite the circumstances, not to ignore them completely.

This comment is in the wrong thread. It belongs in the God Tells Me His Thoughts thread.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on September 30, 2020, 11:17:26 AM
This comment is in the wrong thread. It belongs in the God Tells Me His Thoughts thread.
Please.

We've already gotten the other side of "Hashem sent this virus we have no control over. We need to daven in packed shuls more than ever."

Everyone is willing to superimpose whatever hashkafah they want on it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 11:22:18 AM
On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.

Again, this was in response to those who are saying to those who find masks uncomfortable, "You are childish". To those whose davening is impacted negatively by masks, it is not childish to admit they are a burden.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: S209 on September 30, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people donít complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didnít feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.
So in short, you agree that there is a higher rate of complaints from non-masking communities, but there are definitely some complaints in masking communities.

Fair, and logical.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: hllulbh1 on September 30, 2020, 11:50:47 AM
Please.

We've already gotten the other side of "Hashem sent this virus we have no control over. We need to daven in packed shuls more than ever."

Everyone is willing to superimpose whatever hashkafah they want on it.

Not sure why you took issue with my comment. @yuneeq presented the issue as these are Godís instructions. Since there are varying hashkafa viewpoints on these issues, saying ďHashem wants us to do it this wayĒ as if any of us really know it firsthand belongs in a different thread.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 30, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
Again, this was in response to those who are saying to those who find masks uncomfortable, "You are childish". To those whose davening is impacted negatively by masks, it is not childish to admit they are a burden.

It's not childish to think masks are a burden and uncomfortable. It's childish to refuse to wear it because of that burden and make a whole drama out of it.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on September 30, 2020, 11:54:49 AM
This comment is in the wrong thread. It belongs in the God Tells Me His Thoughts thread.

Which part do you need to be a prophet for? That it's a nisayon to pray with a mask on?
Or that every medical professional tells us that wearing a mask reduces the spread of this virus?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: good sam on October 02, 2020, 11:30:23 AM
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on October 02, 2020, 12:42:36 PM

Same guy who said this


If he can say that R' Chaim Kanievsky has blood on his hands, nothing he says has any value to me.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: AsherO on October 02, 2020, 01:30:12 PM
Same guy who said this


If he can say that R' Chaim Kanievsky has blood on his hands, nothing he says has any value to me.

Heís apparently biased/bitter.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on October 04, 2020, 07:53:51 PM
As expected
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/04/nyregion/nyc-covid-shutdown-zip-codes.html
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on October 04, 2020, 07:56:13 PM
As expected
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/04/nyregion/nyc-covid-shutdown-zip-codes.html
Sad and embarrassing.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on October 04, 2020, 08:03:49 PM
As expected
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/04/nyregion/nyc-covid-shutdown-zip-codes.html
Literally the stupidest policy in history. You want to contain spread so therefore you close business and force people who need stuff to go to other communities.

Also it goes into effect on Wednesday supposedly (I have serious doubts Cuomo will approve any of this) but if itís so dire why wait?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yzj on October 04, 2020, 08:31:39 PM
Talk about ineffective. The entire Far Rockaway already shops and dimes in Nassau County. Other zip codes that are shut down will similarly migrate to nearby shopping.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: shaulyaakov on October 04, 2020, 08:34:04 PM
Talk about ineffective. The entire Far Rockaway already shops and dimes in Nassau County. Other zip codes that are shut down will similarly migrate to nearby shopping.
Big change will be schools and maybe shuls.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on October 04, 2020, 08:37:20 PM
It's generally ineffective, for the reasons stated above, and even shuls and schools will find way to operate outside of the regulations, they did last time. The people most affected by this will be the non-Jewish stores and residents of those areas, and it will only serve to exacerbate the divide and distrust between the communities. All the more reason to toe the line, if you care about these things.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on October 04, 2020, 08:37:44 PM
Big change will be schools and maybe shuls.
Shuls legally canít be closed. And schools help how exactly? Kids will still be getting together just wonít be getting the same education
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: RewardsAddict on October 04, 2020, 09:28:52 PM
Big change will be schools and maybe shuls.
Or the schools will temporarily move to basements in other zip codes
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 04, 2020, 09:45:00 PM
Shuls legally canít be closed.
You said that about camps too...
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on October 04, 2020, 09:46:48 PM
You said that about camps too...
No I didnít. Thereís literally a court order which prohibits houses of worship being closed
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 09:47:47 PM
You said that about camps too...
Ē Houses of worship would be allowed to remain open with existing restrictions in place, de Blasio said.Ē
I think itís currently 50%.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 10:24:42 PM
Does this include parks ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: VacationLover on October 04, 2020, 10:29:42 PM
Ē Houses of worship would be allowed to remain open with existing restrictions in place, de Blasio said.Ē
I think itís currently 50%.
25%
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: yuneeq on October 04, 2020, 10:37:21 PM
Ē Houses of worship would be allowed to remain open with existing restrictions in place, de Blasio said.Ē
I think itís currently 50%.


25%

Article says 50%
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on October 04, 2020, 10:37:54 PM
It is 50 percent
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 10:40:45 PM
Is he legally allowed to lower it to any percent he wants without actually ďclosingĒ it ?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Boruch Parnes on October 04, 2020, 11:00:32 PM
You said that about camps too...
camps only closed voluntary   whoever wanted to stayed open without geting into problems
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on October 04, 2020, 11:02:25 PM
No I didnít. Thereís literally a court order which prohibits houses of worship being closed

Which Court Order are you speaking of?
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on October 04, 2020, 11:02:55 PM
camps only closed voluntary   whoever wanted to stayed open without geting into problems

In as much as following the law is voluntary... sure.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Afrages6 on October 04, 2020, 11:05:47 PM
Which Court Order are you speaking of?
Soos vs NY.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 11:06:49 PM
Which Court Order are you speaking of?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-blocks-25-capacity-rule-religious-services-ny-71480425
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 04, 2020, 11:08:22 PM
Spot the differences

Shuls legally canít be closed. And schools help how exactly? Kids will still be getting together just wonít be getting the same education
Quote
A federal judge has blocked New York state from enforcing coronavirus restrictions limiting indoor religious gatherings to 25% capacity when other types of gatherings are limited to 50%
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 11:13:06 PM
Spot the differences
Being that Deblasio will never lower the protest capacity....
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: Lurker on October 04, 2020, 11:14:08 PM
Being that Deblasio will never lower the protest capacity....

And he hasn't threatened to shut down outdoor minyanim, either.
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: NTorch on October 04, 2020, 11:22:14 PM
Soos vs NY.

That does not say that shuls can't be closed. It stands for the proposition that if they allow a business to open with a certain percentage capacity they can't restrict a shul to a lower capacity
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: TimT on October 04, 2020, 11:23:43 PM
And he hasn't threatened to shut down outdoor minyanim, either.
He tried enforcing it during round 1. Letís see what happens
Title: Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2020, 11:25:39 PM
Big change will be schools and maybe shuls.
Schools will be hit or miss, some are located within those zip codes and some aren't.