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DansDeals Forum => COVID-19 Discussion Board => Topic started by: NTorch on December 08, 2020, 10:25:22 AM

Title: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: NTorch on December 08, 2020, 10:25:22 AM
The FDA has a report on the efficacy on the Pfizer vaccine and it is an interesting read.

I don't know why it is dated 12/10, but it can be found here https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

There was an interesting piece on p.47 about those who already had it, which basically shows that even in December no one knows much about reinfection:

Quote
Effectiveness in individuals previously infected with SARS-CoV-2
The primary endpoint was evaluated in individuals without prior evidence of COVID-19 disease,
and very few cases of confirmed COVID-19 occurred among participants with evidence of
infection prior to vaccination (although more cases occurred in the placebo group compared
with the vaccine group). Therefore, available data are insufficient to make conclusions about
benefit in individuals with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection. However, available data, while limited, do
suggest that previously infected individuals can be at risk of COVID-19 (i.e., reinfection) and
could benefit from vaccination.

Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 10:29:37 AM
TL;DR?

Did they directly expose people in the trial to the virus after being vaccinated ?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Ergel on December 08, 2020, 10:38:13 AM
TL;DR?

Did they directly expose people in the trial to the virus after being vaccinated ?
No
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: NTorch on December 08, 2020, 10:59:06 AM
From page 27:

Quote
Only 3% of participants had evidence of prior infection at study enrollment, and additional
analyses showed that very few COVID-19 cases occurred in these participants over the course
of the entire study (9 in the placebo group and 10 in the BNT162b2 group, only 1 of which
occurred 7 days or more after completion of the vaccination regimen data not shown). The
placebo group attack rate from enrollment to the November 14, 2020, data cut-off date was
1.3% both for participants without evidence of prior infection at enrollment (259 cases in 19,818
participants) and for participants with evidence of prior infection at enrollment (9 cases in 670
participants). While limited, these data do suggest that previously infected individuals can be at
risk of COVID-19 (i.e., reinfection) and could benefit from vaccination
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 11:01:31 AM
No
So there goes the efficacy
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 12:00:14 PM
So there goes the efficacy
?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 12:30:39 PM
?
How could you establish the efficacy of the vaccine when you have no control on the exposure of both groups?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 12:33:56 PM
How could you establish the efficacy of the vaccine when you have no control on the exposure of both groups?
By waiting for a large number of infections to develop, then unblinding the test and seeing how many were in the placebo cohort and how many received the actual vaccine. Thats the procedure used by all major vaccine candidates, and the results have been pretty uniform for Pfizer and Moderna so far.

While your way would have been significantly faster, ethical concerns prevented them from conducting a trial like that.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 08, 2020, 12:37:15 PM
While your way would have been significantly faster, ethical concerns prevented them from conducting a trial like that.
There are claims designing Human Challenge Trials would've actually taken longer than the 2 months it took to reach the efficacy thresholds. Remember, you have to effectively isolate anybody you infect, which would create an enormous logistical burden and severely limit the volunteer pool.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 12:39:16 PM
By waiting for a large number of infections to develop, then unblinding the test and seeing how many were in the placebo cohort and how many received the actual vaccine. Thats the procedure used by all major vaccine candidates, and the results have been pretty uniform for Pfizer and Moderna so far.

While your way would have been significantly faster, ethical concerns prevented them from conducting a trial like that.
All good, however we know so little about transmission and the data keeps on changing, with these people in the trial likely not eating out in restaurants, wearing masks and practicing social distancing, what does it tell us when one group has 90 infected and the other 11? isn't it scientifically plausible that the results could've been much closer?

If my goal is to establish the efficacy of the vaccine in immunizing the patient against being infected "when exposed" what does the trial tell me? 
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 12:56:22 PM
All good, however we know so little about transmission and the data keeps on changing, with these people in the trial likely not eating out in restaurants, wearing masks and practicing social distancing, what does it tell us when one group has 90 infected and the other 11? isn't it scientifically plausible that the results could've been much closer?

If my goal is to establish the efficacy of the vaccine in immunizing the patient against being infected "when exposed" what does the trial tell me?
Im not sure youre understanding the statistical results.

The cohorts were identical in all respects, with the one noted variable being either the vaccine or the placebo having been injected. When one cohort fares significantly better (95% significant) that is sufficient to prove what they are trying to. Obviously the larger the sample size the better but by now we have already seen hundreds of infections across the two studies and the data is holding up.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 01:01:54 PM
There are claims designing Human Challenge Trials would've actually taken longer than the 2 months it took to reach the efficacy thresholds. Remember, you have to effectively isolate anybody you infect, which would create an enormous logistical burden and severely limit the volunteer pool.
Was the large number of participants necessary for the trials needed to maximize knowledge of safety or efficacy?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 08, 2020, 01:03:56 PM
Im not sure youre understanding the statistical results.

The cohorts were identical in all respects, with the one noted variable being either the vaccine or the placebo having been injected. When one cohort fares significantly better (95% significant) that is sufficient to prove what they were trying to. Obviously the larger the sample size the better but we now have seen hundreds of infections across the two studies and the data is holding up.
FWIU, he's claiming the vaccine has only been proven to work against the lower viral loads the trial participants are expected to be exposed to while wearing masks and avoiding most exposure risk. Even if true (there is still full viral load transmission from household members, at the very least), it's a big improvement on zero protection, and the understanding of the mechanism is pretty strong evidence that the vaccine will grant similar immunity from larger viral loads.
Was the large number of participants necessary for the trials needed to maximize knowledge of safety or efficacy?
Both
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 01:04:28 PM
Im not sure youre understanding the statistical results.

The cohorts were identical in all respects, with the one noted variable being either the vaccine or the placebo having been injected. When one cohort fares significantly better (95% significant) that is sufficient to prove what they are trying to. Obviously the larger the sample size the better but by now we have already seen hundreds of infections across the two studies and the data is holding up.
We have so many unanswered questions about transmission that, you are correct I do not understand how the statistical results prove the vaccine is 95% effective in immunizing people against the virus.
I'm indeed missing something that's why I posted because I want to be challenged sop that I can understand better
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 01:12:47 PM
We have so many unanswered questions about transmission that, you are correct I do not understand how the statistical results prove the vaccine is 95% effective in immunizing people against the virus.
I'm indeed missing something that's why I posted because I want to be challenged sop that I can understand better
Do you understand what I posted? Can you pinpoint to what exactly you are having difficulty understanding?
FWIU, he's claiming the vaccine has only been proven to work against the lower viral loads the trial participants are expected to be exposed to while wearing masks and avoiding most exposure risk.
I considered that. However from the following I gathered that that was not his question. Please CMIIW- perhaps I misunderstood.
what does it tell us when one group has 90 infected and the other 11? isn't it scientifically plausible that the results could've been much closer?

If my goal is to establish the efficacy of the vaccine in immunizing the patient against being infected "when exposed" what does the trial tell me? 
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2020, 01:17:04 PM
We have so many unanswered questions about transmission that, you are correct I do not understand how the statistical results prove the vaccine is 95% effective in immunizing people against the virus.
I'm indeed missing something that's why I posted because I want to be challenged sop that I can understand better

That is the purpose of the control group getting the placebo.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 01:17:55 PM
Do you understand what I posted? Can you pinpoint to what exactly you are having difficulty understanding?I considered that. However from the following I gathered that that was not his question. Please CMIIW- perhaps I misunderstood.
Look at your own circles, have you seen people that weren't infected? can you explain why some people get infected and some don't?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 01:20:32 PM
That is the purpose of the control group getting the placebo.
How can you ensure both groups have the same exposure? (and have the same susceptibility, which our knowledge is so vague at this point)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2020, 01:23:38 PM
How can you ensure both groups have the same exposure? (and have the same susceptibility, which our knowledge is so vague at this point)

You can't ensure so you take large groups and track them out and about to see if there are significant enough differences in results that it would be unlikely to be based on different behaviors.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 01:24:56 PM
You can't ensure so you take large groups and track them out and about to see if there are significant enough differences in results that it would be unlikely to be based on different behaviors.
So 11/90 in the moderna trial is considered significant?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2020, 02:25:55 PM
So 11/90 in the moderna trial is considered significant?
I am not a statistician (that was my father who ran stats for FDA approval), but the numbers certainly were analyzed by people who understand them better than I do.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 02:29:00 PM
I am not a statistician (that was my father who ran stats for FDA approval), but the numbers certainly were analyzed by people who understand them better than I do.
Trying to understand it
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Ergel on December 08, 2020, 03:13:14 PM
@Alexsei I think a picture is worth a thousand words
See how the curve breaks sharply apart at day 7? That doesn't happen by chance
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 03:55:33 PM
@Alexsei I think a picture is worth a thousand words
See how the curve breaks sharply apart at day 7? That doesn't happen by chance
TY that makes sense
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: zh cohen on December 08, 2020, 05:45:32 PM
From page 27:

Is this saying that they had 19 cases of confirmed reinfection?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 08, 2020, 06:13:09 PM
Is this saying that they had 19 cases of confirmed reinfection?
Yes, and the bigger issue is that they're showing a similar percentage (1.3%) and no distinction between priorly infected and no infection. However, you can also claim the they were flare-ups and not reinfections, so long as the genome isn't mapped (which is why we have very few 'confirmed' reinfection)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 08, 2020, 10:00:29 PM
Trying to understand it
You start off with 40,000 people injected. Half have been injected with the vaccine, half with a placebo. Other than that, the 40,000 are a diverse mix of all types with varying behaviors in all types of environments. Then you start tracking infections in the group. You expect to have significantly more infections in the placebo group. Once you hit 170 infections, you check to see which group has more, and indeed, fully 162/170 infections occurred among the 20,000 who received a placebo. Of the 20,000 who received the vaccine, only 8 became infected. Each passing day, additional people become infected and you watch them fit neatly into that pattern as well (or adjust as necessary).

Do you understand how having 95% of infections occur in a the group that consists of half of the 40,000 people is significant? Think about that. Only 5% of the infections occurred in the randomly selected group that consisted of half of the experiment.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on December 08, 2020, 10:19:21 PM
You start off with 40,000 people injected. Half have been injected with the vaccine, half with a placebo. Other than that, the 40,000 are a diverse mix of all types with varying behaviors in all types of environments. Then you start tracking infections in the group. You expect to have significantly more infections in the placebo group. Once you hit 170 infections, you check to see which group has more, and indeed, fully 162/170 infections occurred among the 20,000 who received a placebo. Of the 20,000 who received the vaccine, only 8 became infected. Each passing day, additional people become infected and you watch them fit neatly into that pattern as well (or adjust as necessary).

Do you understand how having 95% of infections occur in a the group that consists of half of the 40,000 people is significant? Think about that. Only 5% of the infections occurred in the randomly selected group that consisted of half of the experiment.
I'm starting to get it thank you for the explanation
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: how on December 09, 2020, 12:14:45 AM
NYS will only be using The Pfizer vaccine
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on December 09, 2020, 02:09:08 AM
@Alexsei I think a picture is worth a thousand words
See how the curve breaks sharply apart at day 7? That doesn't happen by chance
It looks like just one injection confers significant immunity.
"Akiko Iwasaki, PhD, an immunobiologist with the Yale University School of Medicine, said one striking finding was that people were protected as early as 12 to 13 days following the first dose. She added that high affinity antibodies and longer-term immunity will likely require the second dose and that all vaccines should stick to the two-dose regimen."
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/12/fda-documents-show-pfizer-covid-vaccine-protects-after-1-dose
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Afrages6 on December 09, 2020, 07:12:08 AM
NYS will only be using The Pfizer vaccine
Source?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 10:26:35 AM
According to current data one dose is 82% effective and two doses are 95%.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on December 09, 2020, 10:32:44 AM
According to current data one dose is 82% effective and two doses are 95%.

At 82%, I'd be skipping the second dose and doubling the number of people getting vaccinated. But what do I know...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mordyk on December 09, 2020, 10:33:08 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/people-with-severe-allergies-shouldnt-get-covid-19-vaccine-says-u-k-regulator-after-reactions-11607515727
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on December 09, 2020, 10:49:32 AM
At 82%, I'd be skipping the second dose and doubling the number of people getting vaccinated. But what do I know...
OTOH, at some point you would want to go back and boost the immunity of healthcare workers and high risk people. If at that time you need another 2 doses it would be less efficient to do it that way.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on December 09, 2020, 10:56:34 AM
OTOH, at some point you would want to go back and boost the immunity of healthcare workers and high risk people. If at that time you need another 2 doses it would be less efficient to do it that way.

IMO, it's not about long term efficiency. It's about shutting this thing down as quickly as possible, and then dealing with producing more as needed. The second dose isn't needed for at least 3 months. If we can double that timeframe to 6 months and double the amount of people who get vaccinated by summer, I think that completely changes the game, even if we have give people 2 more doses.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 09, 2020, 10:57:54 AM
IMO, it's not about long term efficiency. It's about shutting this thing down as quickly as possible, and then dealing with producing more as needed. The second dose isn't needed for at least 3 months. If we can double that timeframe to 6 months and double the amount of people who get vaccinated by summer, I think that completely changes the game, even if we have give people 2 more doses.
And then the big bad pharma lobbyists can sell so many extra doses of the vaccine and plant more chips into everyone. So much more autisming!
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Traveler718 on December 09, 2020, 11:01:10 AM
According to current data one dose is 82% effective and two doses are 95%.

Where did you see the 82% figure? I've been reading 52%, which is obviously a significant gap and would explain why Lurker's suggestion may not be sufficiently effective. The NYT reported 52% directly from Pfizer:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 11:06:12 AM
OTOH, at some point you would want to go back and boost the immunity of healthcare workers and high risk people. If at that time you need another 2 doses it would be less efficient to do it that way.
Not clear even two doses would work at that point
Where did you see the 82% figure? I've been reading 52%, which is obviously a significant gap and would explain why Lurker's suggestion may not be sufficiently effective. The NYT reported 52% directly from Pfizer:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Traveler718 on December 09, 2020, 11:39:25 AM
I'm obviously missing something here. How can it be 82% effective after the first dose, but then only 52% effective between the first and second doses? And if it really is 82% after the first, why wouldn't Pfizer be playing that up instead of telling the NYT that the first dose is only 52% effective?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 09, 2020, 12:19:58 PM
Not clear even two doses would work at that point
How would that work?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 12:28:25 PM
How would that work?
Vector immunity. Im not sure if thats a thing with mRNA though.
Pfizer is downplaying the first dose data because its much less conclusive and the last thing they want is some government deciding to split their vaccines into 2...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 12:29:50 PM
I'm obviously missing something here. How can it be 82% effective after the first dose, but then only 52% effective between the first and second doses? And if it really is 82% after the first, why wouldn't Pfizer be playing that up instead of telling the NYT that the first dose is only 52% effective?
The only explanation I can think of is that 82% is after 7-10 days from the dose and 52% is counting from the first day, but it is amazing how many reporters and doctors are repeating data that clearly makes no sense
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on December 09, 2020, 12:32:07 PM
The only explanation I can think of is that 82% is after 7-10 days from the dose and 52% is counting from the first day, but it is amazing how many reporters and doctors are repeating data that clearly makes no sense

Maybe it progressively drops to 52% at 3 months, which then jumps to 95% with the booster. How long the booster lasts.... Dunno.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 12:34:56 PM
Maybe it progressively drops to 52% at 3 months, which then jumps to 95% with the booster. How long the booster lasts.... Dunno.
The trial only lasted 2 months
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on December 09, 2020, 12:36:05 PM
The trial only lasted 2 months

Yea, I got nothing. None of these numbers are making much sense to me.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mordyk on December 09, 2020, 01:38:35 PM
I think this vaccine will turn a lot of people into anti-vaxxers.  I'm a big believer overall, but when I see how they approved these vaccines which don't begin to make sense I'm starting to doubt this whole process. Impossible to have necessary research on this after 3-4 months. shouldn't they know long term side effects? shouldn't they know first what percentage this will actually help or what percentage will have an allergic reaction?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 01:43:54 PM
Yes, your post makes a lot more sense.

The vaccine triggered an allergic reaction in 0.6% of patients, and the placebo in 0.5%.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: iluv2travel on December 09, 2020, 08:49:06 PM
I think this vaccine will turn a lot of people into anti-vaxxers.  I'm a big believer overall, but when I see how they approved these vaccines which don't begin to make sense I'm starting to doubt this whole process. Impossible to have necessary research on this after 3-4 months. shouldn't they know long term side effects? shouldn't they know first what percentage this will actually help or what percentage will have an allergic reaction?

These were my exact thoughts. But I still know people (a lot of them) who are blindly jumping at the opportunity to get vaccinated and pushing others into it in the hope of getting back to 100% normal life.

I guess that might be a good thing... Otherwise, we'd have everyone run the other way.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
blindly
Definitely not as blindly as those who are posting claims without even pretending to address the actual facts behind them
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: jj1000 on December 09, 2020, 09:00:37 PM
I think this vaccine will turn a lot of people into anti-vaxxers.  I'm a big believer overall, but when I see how they approved these vaccines which don't begin to make sense I'm starting to doubt this whole process. Impossible to have necessary research on this after 3-4 months. shouldn't they know long term side effects? shouldn't they know first what percentage this will actually help or what percentage will have an allergic reaction?
Hence it's EUA... There is a reason the FDA isn't approving it as a regular vaccine.

I suppose they weigh 280,000 deaths with likelihood of the vaccine causing more or less hard. Then decide to what degree etc it would be worth approving something and this met that much lower standard to get EUA.

Even if this does come out to have terrible side effects it'll be sad to see people turn anti-vax considering the FDA isn't claiming or even authorizing this as a normal vaccine like the others.

It's that point where people turn off their logic and just use emotions to decide what they'll do, which causes people to equate things and believe nonsense and turn anti-vax. Which I agree, may happen here.

(Postmarketing surveillance is a huge factor when it comes to what we know about drugs, and with this getting such a massive usage before any Postmarketing surveillance, it obviously raises the likelihood of risk and side effects, I mean obviously 40k people is a tiny sample size compared to how many people will be getting the vaccine.)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 09, 2020, 09:15:59 PM
I mean obviously 40k people is a tiny sample size compared to how many people will be getting the vaccine.
Between Pfizer, Moderna, AstroZeneca, Johnson and Johnson and Novovax there are well over 100K volunteers vaccinated. By the time you and I make a decision there will have been tens of millions vaccinated with plenty of data available.

Note that decision makers with access to greater intel and understanding of the process like Netanyahu, Fauci, Bill Gates and Obama have announced that theyll be first in one to take the vaccine. Theres a reason theyre not too afraid.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 09:22:38 PM
. By the time you and I make a decision there will have been tens of millions vaccinated with plenty of data available.
In the US it seems priortization will come down to the individual hospitals, so I think there's a decent chance we'll be able to be in the first 10m of Pfizer/Moderna. Hopefully we'll see a Vaccination DO thread by Jan...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: zh cohen on December 09, 2020, 09:59:25 PM
Hence it's EUA... There is a reason the FDA isn't approving it as a regular vaccine.

I suppose they weigh 280,000 deaths with likelihood of the vaccine causing more or less hard. Then decide to what degree etc it would be worth approving something and this met that much lower standard to get EUA.

Even if this does come out to have terrible side effects it'll be sad to see people turn anti-vax considering the FDA isn't claiming or even authorizing this as a normal vaccine like the others.

It's that point where people turn off their logic and just use emotions to decide what they'll do, which causes people to equate things and believe nonsense and turn anti-vax. Which I agree, may happen here.

(Postmarketing surveillance is a huge factor when it comes to what we know about drugs, and with this getting such a massive usage before any Postmarketing surveillance, it obviously raises the likelihood of risk and side effects, I mean obviously 40k people is a tiny sample size compared to how many people will be getting the vaccine.)

This seems to be a very good argument for the idea that those who are low risk should put off getting the vaccine until more data is in (which may happen by default).
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: iluv2travel on December 09, 2020, 10:00:10 PM
Even if there are 10m vaccinated before one decides to take it, those 10m won't have been vaccinated long enough at all to know about long term side effects.

I think that's on a lot of people's minds who are hesitant. Long term side effects are obviously impossible to know until a few years have passed and we can't wait that long to introduce a vaccine.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: zh cohen on December 09, 2020, 10:02:12 PM
Note that decision makers with access to greater intel and understanding of the process like Netanyahu, Fauci, Bill Gates and Obama have announced that theyll be first in one to take the vaccine. Theres a reason theyre not too afraid.

Don't know about the others, but Obama said he'll take it when it's available to the general public (not sure exactly what words he used) which won't be right away.

Also, their risk/benefit calculation is different from the average Joe, because them taking it can save many lives by calming people's fears.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 10:05:16 PM
Even if there are 10m vaccinated before one decides to take it, those 10m won't have been vaccinated long enough at all to know about long term side effects.

I think that's on a lot of people's minds who are hesitant. Long term side effects are obviously impossible to know until a few years have passed and we can't wait that long to introduce a vaccine.
If you step on your toe and nothing happens, you don't need to wait a few years to know nothing happened. The vaccine clears the body and is no longer having any impact on it.

Never in history did a vaccine have any adverse effect that was only discovered after more than 2 months.

So yes, we don't know 100%, but we also don't know for sure the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: iluv2travel on December 09, 2020, 10:15:29 PM
If you step on your toe and nothing happens, you don't need to wait a few years to know nothing happened. The vaccine clears the body and is no longer having any impact on it.

Never in history did a vaccine have any adverse effect that was only discovered after more than 2 months.

I'm not expecting there to be any but it is something that is on people's minds especially because of the speed at which the vaccine came or is coming to the general public. A lot faster than any other vaccine in history. Hopefully, there won't be anything to be worried about. Just doesn't mean that there won't be people who will worry anyway.

So yes, we don't know 100%, but we also don't know for sure the sun will rise tomorrow morning.

I'll keep you posted about that iyh tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: cgr on December 09, 2020, 10:22:15 PM
https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

While not a significant number, 4 cases of Bell's palsy were reported. Neurological symptoms coupled with the allergy warning is making it seems less and less exciting by the day. And we're only D+1 from mass distribution in the West.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 10:27:23 PM
https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

While not a significant number, 4 cases of Bell's palsy were reported. Neurological symptoms coupled with the allergy warning is making it seems less and less exciting by the day. And we're only D+1 from mass distribution in the West.
Posted elsewhere. 4/5 Bells palsy episodes are resolved without damage. Allergies were only reported in people with tendencies
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: iluv2travel on December 09, 2020, 10:29:19 PM
https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

While not a significant number, 4 cases of Bell's palsy were reported. Neurological symptoms coupled with the allergy warning is making it seems less and less exciting by the day. And we're only D+1 from mass distribution in the West.

Bell's palsy is considered something that is rare but if it G-d forbid becomes more commonplace due to this vaccine that would be quite terrible. And even though Bell's palsy supposedly resolves by itself within a few weeks I personally know someone that remained with lingering facial paralysis for life because of it.

Again, I am not saying it will happen,  I definitely hope not but this something we have no way of knowing the ramifications until enough time has passed. I wouldn't exactly compare taking a vaccine containing a cocktail of who knows what, to stepping on your toe.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: iluv2travel on December 09, 2020, 10:32:26 PM
4/5 Bells palsy episodes are resolved without damage.

Its great that those 4 cases resolved without damage but for the time someone has it, its extremely uncomfortable to put it mildly.

And then there's the issue of the 1 unresolved...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 09, 2020, 10:36:26 PM
Its great that those 4 cases resolved without damage but for the time someone has it, its extremely uncomfortable to put it mildly.

And then there's the issue of the 1 unresolved...
I meant; 80% of global incidents.
So yes, its a problem. No, its not a big problem.
Most importantly, it demonstrates trials are pretty effective
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on December 10, 2020, 09:39:40 AM
I'm obviously missing something here. How can it be 82% effective after the first dose, but then only 52% effective between the first and second doses? And if it really is 82% after the first, why wouldn't Pfizer be playing that up instead of telling the NYT that the first dose is only 52% effective?
I puzzled over that all yesterday, then finally broke down and read the paper (actually, just this part of it)  Here's my understanding of the numbers:

From Day 0 (First dose given) to Day 105
Vaccine had 82% efficacy in decreasing infections: 50 cases in vaccinated group, 275 in placebo

But that calculation includes all the time after the first dose was injected.  In the first week after injection, it looks like efficacy is close to 0 - there are about 20 cases in each group, making it look like the vaccine has no effect.  But we know that this is because it takes a few days to synthesize enough antibodies to prevent infection, and it's only around day 12 that we start to see a change.  In the third week (days 14-21), 18 new cases occurred in placebo group, but only 2 in vaccinated group.  So they did another calculation to summarize this early 3-week period:

From Day 0 (first dose given) to Day 21 (before second dose)
Vaccine had 52% efficacy: 39 cases in vaccinated group, 82 in placebo

Good to show that %, because it emphasizes that the vaccine starts to have an effect quickly, but it looks misleadingly low because it includes that first week when the immune response was developing. 

After the second injection, they did two calculations:

From Day 21 (second dose given) to Day 28 (to allow one week for immune response to develop)
Vaccine had 90% efficacy: 2 cases in vaccinated group, 21 in placebo

From Day 28 (one week after second dose) to Day 105
Vaccine had 95% efficacy: 9 cases in vaccinated group, 172 in placebo

They can't really say what the efficacy would be after just one dose, because they only looked for three weeks, and after that everyone got a second dose.  It's possible that immunity would wear off more quickly after a single dose.  So why didn't they have a third group, that had just one dose, and they could follow that group for longer?  It's been shown for some other vaccines that two doses are needed for maximal effectiveness, and it would have taken that much more time to recruit an additional 22,000 people for that third group.  Perhaps this was one of the corners they cut to work at warp speed?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on December 10, 2020, 10:08:38 AM
I puzzled over that all yesterday, then finally broke down and read the paper (actually, just this part of it)  Here's my understanding of the numbers:

From Day 0 (First dose given) to Day 105
Vaccine had 82% efficacy in decreasing infections: 50 cases in vaccinated group, 275 in placebo

But that calculation includes all the time after the first dose was injected.  In the first week after injection, it looks like efficacy is close to 0 - there are about 20 cases in each group, making it look like the vaccine has no effect.  But we know that this is because it takes a few days to synthesize enough antibodies to prevent infection, and it's only around day 12 that we start to see a change.  In the third week (days 14-21), 18 new cases occurred in placebo group, but only 2 in vaccinated group.  So they did another calculation to summarize this early 3-week period:

From Day 0 (first dose given) to Day 21 (before second dose)
Vaccine had 52% efficacy: 39 cases in vaccinated group, 82 in placebo

Good to show that %, because it emphasizes that the vaccine starts to have an effect quickly, but it looks misleadingly low because it includes that first week when the immune response was developing. 

After the second injection, they did two calculations:

From Day 21 (second dose given) to Day 28 (to allow one week for immune response to develop)
Vaccine had 90% efficacy: 2 cases in vaccinated group, 21 in placebo

From Day 28 (one week after second dose) to Day 105
Vaccine had 95% efficacy: 9 cases in vaccinated group, 172 in placebo

They can't really say what the efficacy would be after just one dose, because they only looked for three weeks, and after that everyone got a second dose.  It's possible that immunity would wear off more quickly after a single dose.  So why didn't they have a third group, that had just one dose, and they could follow that group for longer?  It's been shown for some other vaccines that two doses are needed for maximal effectiveness, and it would have taken that much more time to recruit an additional 22,000 people for that third group.  Perhaps this was one of the corners they cut to work at warp speed?
I would like to see what the results look like when calculating from when the number of cases in the vaccinated group slowed down until that many days after the second dose or maybe only until the second dose. If I understand correctly, both the 52% and the 82% are undercounting the effectiveness because they include the first few days before the vaccine actually works.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on December 10, 2020, 10:30:39 AM
I would like to see what the results look like when calculating from when the number of cases in the vaccinated group slowed down until that many days after the second dose or maybe only until the second dose.
You can kinda see that in the numbers under the graph, which gives cumulative weekly cases.  It seems to be slowing down around d12 (in week 2), so what happens after that is the numbers I gave for days 14-21, just before second dose: 2 in vaccinated group, 18 in placebo.

Quote
If I understand correctly, both the 52% and the 82% are undercounting the effectiveness because they include the first few days before the vaccine actually works.
I don't think they're undercounting effectiveness, just that they're providing different ways of viewing effectiveness.  This document isn't really for us, it's for the FDA committee that reviews vaccines, and they may require these different calculations to get a fuller view of what's going on, and they would understand their value.
I expect that for us regular folks, they'll just say effectiveness kicks in only around day 10, so be especially careful for the next two weeks...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 10, 2020, 10:36:37 AM
I puzzled over that all yesterday, then finally broke down and read the paper (actually, just this part of it)  Here's my understanding of the numbers:

From Day 0 (First dose given) to Day 105
Vaccine had 82% efficacy in decreasing infections: 50 cases in vaccinated group, 275 in placebo

But that calculation includes all the time after the first dose was injected.  In the first week after injection, it looks like efficacy is close to 0 - there are about 20 cases in each group, making it look like the vaccine has no effect.  But we know that this is because it takes a few days to synthesize enough antibodies to prevent infection, and it's only around day 12 that we start to see a change.  In the third week (days 14-21), 18 new cases occurred in placebo group, but only 2 in vaccinated group.  So they did another calculation to summarize this early 3-week period:

From Day 0 (first dose given) to Day 21 (before second dose)
Vaccine had 52% efficacy: 39 cases in vaccinated group, 82 in placebo

Good to show that %, because it emphasizes that the vaccine starts to have an effect quickly, but it looks misleadingly low because it includes that first week when the immune response was developing. 

After the second injection, they did two calculations:

From Day 21 (second dose given) to Day 28 (to allow one week for immune response to develop)
Vaccine had 90% efficacy: 2 cases in vaccinated group, 21 in placebo

From Day 28 (one week after second dose) to Day 105
Vaccine had 95% efficacy: 9 cases in vaccinated group, 172 in placebo

They can't really say what the efficacy would be after just one dose, because they only looked for three weeks, and after that everyone got a second dose.  It's possible that immunity would wear off more quickly after a single dose.  So why didn't they have a third group, that had just one dose, and they could follow that group for longer?  It's been shown for some other vaccines that two doses are needed for maximal effectiveness, and it would have taken that much more time to recruit an additional 22,000 people for that third group.  Perhaps this was one of the corners they cut to work at warp speed?
I would like to see what the results look like when calculating from when the number of cases in the vaccinated group slowed down until that many days after the second dose or maybe only until the second dose. If I understand correctly, both the 52% and the 82% are undercounting the effectiveness because they include the first few days before the vaccine actually works.

From the numbers presented, this should be able to be calculated from how it dropped to 2 vs. 18 during the 3rd week.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on December 10, 2020, 10:46:24 AM
You can kinda see that in the numbers under the graph, which gives cumulative weekly cases.  It seems to be slowing down around d12 (in week 2), so what happens after that is the numbers I gave for days 14-21, just before second dose: 2 in vaccinated group, 18 in placebo.
I don't think they're undercounting effectiveness, just that they're providing different ways of viewing effectiveness.  This document isn't really for us, it's for the FDA committee that reviews vaccines, and they may require these different calculations to get a fuller view of what's going on, and they would understand their value.
I expect that for us regular folks, they'll just say effectiveness kicks in only around day 10, so be especially careful for the next two weeks...
Because the time from day 14-21 is so short, we don't know what the efficacy really is in that time period based on only 40k participants. If we gave a margin of error of 1 case in each group the efficacy in that week would be nearly identical to the efficacy from day 28 to 105. If we assign only 1 case to the vaccinated group instead of 2 and 19 to the placebo group instead of 18, and multiply by 9 we get 9 in the vaccinated group and 171 in the placebo group. Compared to 9 and 172 from day 28-105. Obviously the MOE can go the other way too, but it seems reasonable to think 1 dose may be just as effective at least in the beginning.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on December 10, 2020, 10:48:00 AM
I don't think they're undercounting effectiveness, just that they're providing different ways of viewing effectiveness.  This document isn't really for us, it's for the FDA committee that reviews vaccines, and they may require these different calculations to get a fuller view of what's going on, and they would understand their value.
I expect that for us regular folks, they'll just say effectiveness kicks in only around day 10, so be especially careful for the next two weeks...
Maybe it would be better to say that using these numbers to gauge effectiveness would be very inaccurate.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on December 10, 2020, 10:52:17 AM
The FDA committee that's reviewing the Pfizer vaccine is meeting now, live.  Started a couple hours ago, I think:
https://www.cnn.com/specials/live-video-1
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 10, 2020, 12:23:45 PM
Pfizer would make billions of dollars more if one dose was sufficient and they can get their vaccines out faster with less encumbrance of patients. Maybe this trial wasn't definitive about 1 dose vs 2 doses, but I'd assume they're fairly confident 2 doses are really necessary from the other trials and knowledge of other mRNA vaccines.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on December 10, 2020, 12:25:07 PM
Pfizer would make billions of dollars more if one dose was sufficient and they can get their vaccines out faster with less encumbrance of patients. Maybe this trial wasn't definitive about 1 dose vs 2 doses, but I'd assume they're fairly confident 2 doses are really necessary from the other trials and knowledge of other mRNA vaccines.
How would they make more? They would max out at half the number of doses.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 10, 2020, 12:36:54 PM
How would they make more? They would max out at half the number of doses.
They don't charge per ML, they charge per vaccination. They'd have capacity to make twice as many, and their vaccine would be more desirable than competition that require 2 doses.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on December 10, 2020, 09:33:16 PM
They don't charge per ML, they charge per vaccination. They'd have capacity to make twice as many, and their vaccine would be more desirable than competition that require 2 doses.

Thats true for the dose itself, but if theyre making money on the distribution due to the special cold-storage needs of the vaccine (that they have the expertise in) and theyre going to get paid per dose in that regard, that could be a factor as well.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 10, 2020, 09:49:36 PM
Thats true for the dose itself, but if theyre making money on the distribution due to the special cold-storage needs of the vaccine (that they have the expertise in) and theyre going to get paid per dose in that regard, that could be a factor as well.
The distribution capacity will be maxed out regardless for the better part of the year (at the very least), and by then competition will drive the distribution pricing down.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on December 10, 2020, 10:02:10 PM
The distribution capacity will be maxed out regardless for the better part of the year (at the very least), and by then competition will drive the distribution pricing down.

Is production (supply), distribution, or demand the bottleneck here?

Sounds like all three, and aligning them all sounds like a nightmare especially when people have to show up three weeks later for a second dose (which has to be available to them).
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 10, 2020, 10:06:40 PM
Is production (supply), distribution, or demand the bottleneck here?

Sounds like all three, and aligning them all sounds like a nightmare especially when people have to show up three weeks later for a second dose (which has to be available to them).
I understand, which is why Pfizer is strictly regulating that governments must keep the second dose allocated from the time of the first shot, and can't rely on future supplies.

However to your poin, if you're going to distribute every vaccine you produce, and you are producing as many as you can, you'll do a similar amount of distribution regardless of 1 or 2 doses (more locations/deliveries if 1 dose)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 10, 2020, 11:06:44 PM
I understand, which is why Pfizer is strictly regulating that governments must keep the second dose allocated from the time of the first shot, and can't rely on future supplies.

However to your poin, if you're going to distribute every vaccine you produce, and you are producing as many as you can, you'll do a similar amount of distribution regardless of 1 or 2 doses (more locations/deliveries if 1 dose)
Until a certain point.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: how on December 12, 2020, 06:57:18 PM
The FDA committee that's reviewing the Pfizer vaccine is meeting now, live.  Started a couple hours ago, I think:
https://www.cnn.com/specials/live-video-1
Approved first NY delivery Dec 15
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yungermanchik on December 13, 2020, 08:47:27 PM
https://nypost.com/2020/12/11/these-freezers-will-store-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-in-ny/
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 13, 2020, 10:39:15 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on December 15, 2020, 03:32:15 PM
Invalid Tweet ID

Once supply outpaces demand, it would be good for people in position of leadership/influencers to get vaccinated publicly to engender public trust in the vaccine.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 15, 2020, 03:43:02 PM
Once supply outpaces demand, it would be good for people in position of leadership/influencers to get vaccinated publicly to engender public trust in the vaccine.
If Trump tries to get the vaccine early hell be vilified for jumping the line. If he doesnt hell be excoriated for making others do what he wont. Darned if he doesnt, darned if he does.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: NTorch on December 15, 2020, 03:44:00 PM
If Trump tries to get the vaccine early hell be vilified for jumping the line. If he doesnt hell be excoriated for making others do what he wont. Darned if he doesnt, darned if he does.

He's mending socks?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2020, 03:55:07 PM
If Trump tries to get the vaccine early hell be vilified for jumping the line. If he doesnt hell be excoriated for making others do what he wont. Darned if he doesnt, darned if he does.
Does he need it considering that he was infected?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on December 15, 2020, 03:56:54 PM
Does he need it considering that he was infected?
The Billion dollar question.

The CLE Clinic isn't giving theirs to Docs who were covid+ in the past 90 days.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 15, 2020, 04:02:02 PM
Does he need it considering that he was infected?
He likely does not, at least at this point. Dont think anyone in the MSM will bother mentioning that in their attacks, though.

Even if he doesnt personally vaccinate his tweet was about staff, likely staff that has not been infected yet.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 15, 2020, 04:02:40 PM

He's mending socks?
The media is mending him.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 15, 2020, 07:43:18 PM
The Billion dollar question.

The CLE Clinic isn't giving theirs to Docs who were covid+ in the past 90 days.
There's a theory than Mono AG cocktails like Regeneron that was given to Trump may inhibit antibody development, so Trump would be in a different category.

I don't think it's so far fetched he'll ask Pfizer/Modern to pay him big $$$ to 'endorse' the vaccine and take it after he leaves office.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 15, 2020, 07:49:59 PM
There's a theory than Mono AG cocktails like Regeneron that was given to Trump may inhibit antibody development
Is this true? Would really like to hear more about this. I have been asked this question by someone its very relevant to.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 15, 2020, 08:57:17 PM
Is this true? Would really like to hear more about this. I have been asked this question by someone its very relevant to.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/health/coronavirus-trump.html


Quote
A unique treatment course may have blunted his bodys production of antibodies, scientists warn.

Quote
He may be not protected the second time around, especially because he didnt develop his own antibodies, said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University.

Also, steroids like dexamethasone may suppress antibody production.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 15, 2020, 10:05:40 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/health/coronavirus-trump.html


Also, steroids like dexamethasone may suppress antibody production.
Thanks. Its hard to know whats true and whats not when its the Gray Lady vs. Trump.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2020, 10:50:39 PM
Thanks. Its hard to know whats true and whats not when its the Gray Lady vs. Trump.
What makes you think anything might be true.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 15, 2020, 11:18:41 PM
What makes you think anything might be true.
The small fact that there isn't a single professional opinion to the contrary, and it is quoting one of the most respected immunologists in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2020, 11:51:19 PM
The small fact that there isn't a single professional opinion to the contrary, and it is quoting one of the most respected immunologists in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki
Sometimes you take me too seriously when it wasn't meant to be.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 16, 2020, 12:14:29 AM
Sometimes you take me too seriously when it wasn't meant to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on December 16, 2020, 10:18:57 AM
If Trump tries to get the vaccine early hell be vilified for jumping the line. If he doesnt hell be excoriated for making others do what he wont. Darned if he doesnt, darned if he does.

Which is why I specifically said once supply outpaces demand, until then theres no imperative to engender trust in a vaccine that is not yet available.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: ExGingi on December 16, 2020, 08:53:42 PM
FWIW Israel policy regarding priorities in receiving vaccines states that people who recovered from COVID-19 don't get vaccines.

HT: Israeli MOH via Telegram

(https://i.imgur.com/sPpEhlQ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/wQKztav.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/cPwayCP.png)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yungermanchik on December 16, 2020, 09:10:53 PM
FWIW Israel policy regarding priorities in receiving vaccines states that people who recovered from COVID-19 don't get vaccines.

HT: Israeli MOH via Telegram
#deincentivize
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 16, 2020, 09:39:04 PM


This is why Bibbi is one of the top politicians in the world.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on December 18, 2020, 01:33:48 PM
There are claims designing Human Challenge Trials would've actually taken longer than the 2 months it took to reach the efficacy thresholds. Remember, you have to effectively isolate anybody you infect, which would create an enormous logistical burden and severely limit the volunteer pool.
For efficacy, pay a few hundred/thousand people to live together in a close knit community setting while deliberately introducing COVID-19 several times as necessary. Separately inject tens of thousands elsewhere to check for safety.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 18, 2020, 02:06:16 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 05, 2021, 11:49:31 AM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 01:15:52 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 12, 2021, 01:23:55 PM

Shouldn't the drop be higher than 33%?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 01:33:45 PM
Shouldn't the drop be higher than 33%?
The Pfizer data relates to symptomatic illness, and we already know the vaccine is more effective against severe illness than it is against all illness, so nothing really surprising.

Importantly, if a PCR test is negative, one is extremely unlikely to be transmitting virus at that point
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: how on January 12, 2021, 01:54:44 PM
Shouldn't the drop be higher than 33%?
Yes...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 12, 2021, 02:06:49 PM
The Pfizer data relates to symptomatic illness, and we already know the vaccine is more effective against severe illness than it is against all illness, so nothing really surprising.

Importantly, if a PCR test is negative, one is extremely unlikely to be transmitting virus at that point

Im not following the numbers. How does 33% reduction translate to 80-95% efficacy?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
Im not following the numbers. How does 33% reduction translate to 80-95% efficacy?
33% reduction in asymptomatic cases can be consistent with 80% efficacy against symptomatic cases.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 12, 2021, 02:13:12 PM
33% reduction in asymptomatic cases can be consistent with 80% efficacy against symptomatic cases.

The tweet says 33% drop in cases, what percentage of those are symptomatic? (And what are they comparing to?)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 02:16:18 PM
The tweet says 33% drop in cases, what percentage of those are symptomatic? (And what are they comparing to?)
Not sure. The comparison is to the the entire Israeli testing system, where all Covid exposures get less quarantine with 2 negative tests, hence only a small portion of those getting testing are symptomatic. The overall positivity rate is around 7%

This is the incentive for Pfizer to supply Israel, comprehensive data is readily available
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on January 12, 2021, 02:20:03 PM
33% reduction in asymptomatic cases can be consistent with 80% efficacy against symptomatic cases.
We also don't know when the asymptomatic people contacted the virus, they may have contacted it weeks before receiving the vaccine.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on January 12, 2021, 02:20:54 PM
Shouldn't the drop be higher than 33%?
The group in Israel is all over 60 - perhaps older people take longer to produce immune response than younger group studied by Pfizer.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/Hy2tLSiAP
מנתונים ראשוניים של מכון קופת חולים כללית למחקר עולה כי יש ירידה משמעותית בהדבקה של מי שחוסנו - 14 ימים אחרי מנת החיסון הראשונה. מדובר באוכלוסיית בני ה-60 ומעלה. בימים 5 עד 12 אחרי המנה הראשונה לא רואים השפעה כלל של החיסון, מסביר פרופ' רן בליצר, ראש מערך חדשנות של הכללית. ביום ב-13 יש ירידה קלה, ואז צניחה של 33% ביום ה-14. מאותו יום נשמר הפער בקרב החיוביים.

So there was no effect day 5-12 after immunization, then a a small decrease of positives on day 13, and a precipitous decrease on day 14.  Similar to those two curves we saw from pfizer, that began to diverge about day 12-14.  Not clear if he means that the gap of 33% continues thereafter, or if the gap continues thereafter, meaning it might be 50% the next day.

הבדיקה נעשתה באמצעות השוואה בין קבוצת מחוסנים ללא מחוסנים, בתקנון לפי גיל. קופת חולים כללית היא הגדולה בישראל, ומבטחת את הציבור המבוגר ביותר, והבדיקה נערכה על קבוצה של 200 אלף בני אדם. זו הפעם הראשונה בעולם שיש הוכחה שחיסון פייזר איננו מונע רק מחלה עם תסמינים - שזה מה שהוכיחו המחקרים השונים - אלא גם הדבקה ממש. אי אפשר לדעת בשלב זה אם החיסון מוריד עוד הדבקה, מעבר ל-33%, אחרי המנה השנייה - אך סביר להניח שכן.
Sounds like they were comparing tests given to unvaccinated people at this time in the Clalit kupat cholim, so not comparing to a placebo group like Pfizer did.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on January 12, 2021, 02:28:34 PM
This is good news, though not completely persuasive. AFAIK people are being told to be especially careful after vaccination, so this emphasis on precautions could also cause them to show fewer positive tests compared to the general group of nonvaccinated citizens who happen to have been tested during the same period.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: tmendy226 on January 12, 2021, 02:37:09 PM
I am under 30, had a mild covid case around Purim and have around 18 level antibodies (or whatever you call it). I have an opportunity to get the vaccine now.

Any benefit for me to take it?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 02:47:44 PM
I am under 30, had a mild covid case around Purim and have around 18 level antibodies (or whatever you call it). I have an opportunity to get the vaccine now.

Any benefit for me to take it?
Yes stronger and longer lasting protection, aside from access benefits to hotels and countries etc and lack of quarantine obligations
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: how on January 12, 2021, 02:49:45 PM
I am under 30, had a mild covid case around Purim and have around 18 level antibodies (or whatever you call it). I have an opportunity to get the vaccine now.

Any benefit for me to take it?
Ask your doctor...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 02:54:35 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yungermanchik on January 12, 2021, 02:59:09 PM
I am under 30, had a mild covid case around Purim and have around 18 level antibodies (or whatever you call it). I have an opportunity to get the vaccine now.

Any benefit for me to take it?
Possibly, some benefit, but not enough to warrant taking a slot that would be taken by a higher-risk person. 
Where can a 70+ (NY Resident) get a vaccine in NY or NJ Asap?
go to each of the various websites and reload every so often until a cancelation causes a slot to open up and quickly sign up.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yelped on January 12, 2021, 03:27:32 PM
So that would jive with this:
The group in Israel is all over 60 - perhaps older people take longer to produce immune response than younger group studied by Pfizer.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: tmendy226 on January 12, 2021, 05:09:25 PM
Possibly, some benefit, but not enough to warrant taking a slot that would be taken by a higher-risk person.  go to each of the various websites and reload every so often until a cancelation causes a slot to open up and quickly sign up.

They only use 27% of the vaccines they have in the state so I'm not too worried about that...

(of course, I am getting it in a legal way)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: tmendy226 on January 12, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
Yes stronger and longer lasting protection, aside from access benefits to hotels and countries etc and lack of quarantine obligations

Can you please link to a study/doctor who says this with "certainty" (meaning not just a "maybe").

Regarding quarantine, hotels, countries, I could not find any country or hotel etc which makes exception for vaccinated peole. can you please link to that?

Thank you.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on January 12, 2021, 05:25:41 PM
They only use 27% of the vaccines they have in the state so I'm not too worried about that...

(of course, I am getting it in a legal way)
It's now close to 50%. It took a few weeks, but they're finally figuring it out.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 05:29:18 PM
It's now close to 50%. It took a few weeks, but they're finally figuring it out.
Does 50% mean they left the other 50% for second doses or its 25+25
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: incendia on January 12, 2021, 06:37:31 PM
Does 50% mean they left the other 50% for second doses or its 25+25

No it means they used 50% of what they received. States weren't receiving the 2nd dose until 3/4 weeks after the first.

Now that they've opened public vaccine sites they'll use their allocation fast 
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yungermanchik on January 12, 2021, 07:32:37 PM
They only use 27% of the vaccines they have in the state so I'm not too worried about that...

(of course, I am getting it in a legal way)
Nevertheless, DW and I still had difficulty yesterday trying to book an appointment for her grandfather. There was no availability, and then when something opened up, it was quickly snatched up.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Alexsei on January 12, 2021, 07:47:06 PM
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/maimonides-records-seven-covid-19-cases-after-first-dose-vaccinations

Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 12, 2021, 09:07:58 PM
So that would jive with this:
Yup, but that's an understatement. @biobook is a genius.

 
No it means they used 50% of what they received. States weren't receiving the 2nd dose until 3/4 weeks after the first.

Now that they've opened public vaccine sites they'll use their allocation fast 
Ah, got it.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on January 12, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
So that would jive with this:
Quote
biobook on Today at 02:20:54 PM
The group in Israel is all over 60 - perhaps older people take longer to produce immune response than younger group studied by Pfizer.
So one thing I've learned over the past year on DDF is that I should stop searching for answers or trying to reason them out. If I just keep my mouth shut (and my fingers still), within a short time some brilliant journalist or tweeter will provide a more accurate, knowledgeable, and eloquent response.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 22, 2021, 12:39:00 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 22, 2021, 12:42:55 PM

Same data as this:


Or another study confirming the same numbers?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 22, 2021, 01:31:29 PM
Same data as this:

Or another study confirming the same numbers?
More analysis of the same study
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 22, 2021, 02:23:38 PM
After 23 days there is a 60% drop

Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 22, 2021, 02:39:29 PM
After 23 days there is a 60% drop


This is nice, quick, and transparent data analysis. Cant wait to see the data in a month, when well have more clarity on 2nd dose results.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 26, 2021, 02:59:44 AM

Anybody who doesnt get vaccinated is endangering other peoples lives, and even people who had Covid should get vaccinated.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 26, 2021, 04:04:00 PM
Israeli MoH publishes new guidelines that allow vaccinating kids under 16 in cases with severe risk factors



ETA: Every child requires an individual authorization sign off from the MoH committee chairman.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 26, 2021, 05:04:40 PM
ETA: Every child requires an individual authorization sign off from the MoH committee chairman.

Thats because:
1. Theyre at risk and it could be extra dangerous for them
2. The vaccine wasnt proven safe in children in clinical trials

P.s. This is a bit of a tangent from the thread topic, typical for DDF
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 26, 2021, 05:06:58 PM
P.s. This is a bit of a tangent from the thread topic, typical for DDF
I read the thread title to encompass general elements of the Pfizer Vaccine, as opposed to the others that are focus on the timeline and Israel
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on January 26, 2021, 05:20:20 PM
I read the thread title to encompass general elements of the Pfizer Vaccine, as opposed to the others that are focus on the timeline and Israel

And I read it to a narrower focus asking/discussing whether those who recovered from an infection need to get vaccinated
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on January 31, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
It appears R Yitzchok Scheiner got the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine more than 2 weeks ago.

My cousin got COVID just after getting his second dose, although it seems he was exposed around a week after his first dose.

R Mendel Slomowitz currently has COVID, around 2.5 weeks after his first dose (I think Moderna).
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on January 31, 2021, 12:08:47 PM
It appears R Yitzchok Scheiner got the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine more than 2 weeks ago.
We already know it's not effective right away.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on January 31, 2021, 12:09:47 PM
We already know it's not effective right away.
Im aware, just posting the DP. Many people seem to incorrectly believe that the first dose offers near instant protection, which it may to some extent, but not much.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on January 31, 2021, 12:12:51 PM
It appears R Yitzchok Scheiner got the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine more than 2 weeks ago.

My cousin got COVID just after getting his second dose, although it seems he was exposed around a week after his first dose.

R Mendel Slomowitz currently has COVID, around 2.5 weeks after his first dose (I think Moderna).
I wonder if the symptoms slowed it down causing symptoms to only appear weeks later.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 31, 2021, 12:17:17 PM
I wonder if the symptoms slowed it down causing symptoms to only appear weeks later.
Along those lines, Israel has a higher proportion of asymptomatic carriers (vs symptomatic) amongst people vaccinated (they have good data because all exposures are incentivized to test for a shorter quarantine), which means by virtue of not displaying symptoms they may be spreading it more than if they weren't vaccinated
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on January 31, 2021, 12:37:25 PM
Along those lines, Israel has a higher proportion of asymptomatic carriers (vs symptomatic) amongst people vaccinated (they have good data because all exposures are incentivized to test for a shorter quarantine), which means by virtue of not displaying symptoms they may be spreading it more than if they weren't vaccinated
Unless they're less likely to be spreaders due to lower viral load.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 31, 2021, 12:41:02 PM
Unless they're less likely to be spreaders due to lower viral load.
Correct. We dont know yet
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on January 31, 2021, 01:32:46 PM
Just looking at the data published by Moderna and Pfizer doesnt it appear that the 1st dose takes effect some time earlier than the official day 14 mark causing infection rates to drop  at that point? Exposure to the virus would have to have occurred 2-14 days earlier, meaning the 14 day wait is misleading- it really kicks in 2-12 days after the first dose. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 31, 2021, 01:43:51 PM
Just looking at the data published by Moderna and Pfizer doesnt it appear that the 1st dose takes effect some time earlier than the official day 14 mark causing infection rates to drop  at that point? Exposure to the virus would have to have occurred 2-14 days earlier, meaning the 14 day wait is misleading- it really kicks in 2-12 days after the first dose. Am I wrong?

We don't know that vaccine impact is only at preventing infection at the exposure point.

We know the vaccine prevents severe symptoms even if it fails to prevent the original infection.

I think it follows that even if the vaccine only starts working after the original infection it can still prevent some of the symptoms, which can also mean vaccine is effective against reactivations and the reinfection v reactivation arguments are moot.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on January 31, 2021, 01:47:55 PM
We don't know that vaccine impact is only at preventing infection at the exposure point.

We know the vaccine prevents severe symptoms even if it fails to prevent the original infection.

I think it follows that even if the vaccine only starts working after the original infection it can still prevent some of the symptoms, which can also mean vaccine is effective against reactivations and the reinfection v reactivation arguments are moot.
That can also be explained by it reducing viral load at time of infection even if it doesnt prevent infection entirely, but your point is fair.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 31, 2021, 01:54:11 PM
That can also be explained by it reducing viral load at time of infection even if it doesnt prevent infection entirely
Correct
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: NTorch on January 31, 2021, 04:47:15 PM
And I read it to a narrower focus asking/discussing whether those who recovered from an infection need to get vaccinated

That was what I intended.

But its funny that we see different answers here vs Israel.

My entire family had it in March

- those who are in the US are eligible (my AC had her first shot, my oldest daughter is on the fence about getting it).

- my son who is in Israel is ineligible as they are not vaccinating anyone with antibodies.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 01, 2021, 01:58:29 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on February 01, 2021, 02:20:37 PM
Weirdly, they dont seem to have measured immune response *prior* to the first dose, so we have no way of knowing whether the stellar immune response predated the first dose. No?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on February 01, 2021, 03:14:13 PM
Weirdly, they dont seem to have measured immune response *prior* to the first dose, so we have no way of knowing whether the stellar immune response predated the first dose. No?
They did measure antibodies prior to the first dose.  See results in figure on bottom of the submitted pre-print, linked to the 4th paragraph of the NYT article:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/covid-vaccine-dose.html  or directly here: https://t.co/6EOEZq8tod?amp=1

A few of those who had recovered from covid didn't have detectable antibody before vaccination, but it looks like all of them did have a strong antibody response after the first vaccine.  So this shows that the memory B cells are still there even without antibody present, ready to quickly produce antibodies when needed. 

You can see the speed of that response, since those who've had covid responded to the first vaccine by producing antibodies 5-8 days later, while it took 9-12 days for those who haven't had covid to show that response.  In fact, the antibody response of the previously infected was so high after one shot, that it surpassed what the others reached after TWO shots.  The NYT article describes some of the machlokes on whether or not this means that those previously infected should get only one shot.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Traveler718 on February 02, 2021, 09:55:24 AM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 10, 2021, 01:21:46 AM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 13, 2021, 07:56:48 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on February 13, 2021, 08:01:17 PM

But this is after they've already told people who are allergic to eggs or other history vaccine-related allergic reaction not to take these vaccines.

Interesting that the numbers skew significantly towards females, wonder why that is.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 13, 2021, 08:39:43 PM
Do allergies in general skew Female?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on February 13, 2021, 08:51:48 PM
Do allergies in general skew Female?

I have no idea, very possible. It just stood out to me.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 14, 2021, 01:28:29 AM
Seeing reports France decided officially to only give 1 dose to people who had Covid prior.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 16, 2021, 06:00:50 PM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yelped on February 16, 2021, 06:49:34 PM
Do allergies in general skew Female?
Food allergies IME are genetic, runs in families, some yeah, some no, no difference between gender.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on February 21, 2021, 05:21:28 AM
The Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine can now be stored in normal freezers, the company announced this morning, paving the way for less logistical confusion surrounding the vaccine, which caused thousands of doses to be thrown out.

New research and data released by the companies proved that the vaccine generates robust immunity after one dose and can be stored in ordinary freezers instead of at ultracold temperatures.

Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 11, 2021, 02:25:25 AM
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 11, 2021, 06:46:02 AM

Very interesting and the entire article is worth a read. Thanks
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 12, 2021, 01:30:09 PM
PSA: Covid Vaccine Reaction!
This happened yesterday and is important information for those of us whom happen to be over 65.

Note: I realize all recipients of this are NOT over 65 but thought you might want a clue what it will be like someday when you reach it.

A friend had his 2nd dose of the vaccine at the vaccination center after which he began to have blurred vision on the way home.

When he got home, he called the vaccination center for advice and to ask if he should go see a doctor, or be hospitalized.

He was told NOT to go to a doctor or a hospital, but just return to the vaccination center immediately and pick up his glasses.

Doesn't belong in this thread, will move.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: pointer on March 12, 2021, 02:10:13 PM
Doesn't belong in this thread, will move.
Won't be half as funny.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 12, 2021, 02:18:49 PM
Won't be half as funny.

Quote
PSA: Covid Vaccine Reaction!

in the beginning of a non-joke-thread about vaccination isn't funny.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on March 13, 2021, 10:03:18 PM
Canada is making people wait 16 weeks between Pfizer shots.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yelped on March 13, 2021, 10:09:00 PM
Canada is making people wait 16 weeks between Pfizer shots.
Because of rationing?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Something Fishy on March 13, 2021, 10:10:08 PM
Is there a tool online where you can search for the Pfizer vaccine? I've had absolutely no luck so far.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Kobe Bryant on March 13, 2021, 10:15:04 PM
Doesn't belong in this thread, will move.
Quoting kind of defeats the purpose.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on March 13, 2021, 10:16:29 PM
Because of rationing?

Yea, low supply.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 13, 2021, 10:20:59 PM
Is there a tool online where you can search for the Pfizer vaccine? I've had absolutely no luck so far.

NY's vaccinefinder.nyc.gov specifies which one is used at the site, you can use ctrl f to highlight the ones you want
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 13, 2021, 10:25:54 PM
Is it more advisable to get the second pfizer dose a few days early or a few weeks late? ETA: if you can't get it on time
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on March 13, 2021, 10:42:27 PM
Is it more advisable to get the second pfizer dose a few days early or a few weeks late? ETA: if you can't get it on time
I believe based on a @biobook post it makes more sense to get it very late than very early, but based on the CHEMED interview of Dr. Paul Offit (immunologist from CHOP, hes also on the FDA vaccine approval board) less than 4 days early or late really doesnt matter.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yesitsme on March 13, 2021, 10:54:14 PM
I believe based on a @biobook post it makes more sense to get it very late than very early, but based on the CHEMED interview of Dr. Paul Offit (immunologist from CHOP, hes also on the FDA vaccine approval board) less than 4 days early or late really doesnt matter.
BTW this is the policy with All/most vaccines, they have a grace period of 4 days

I googled to back up my words
Quote
Q4: If a dose of vaccine was received before the minimum age or interval, does the dose
need to be repeated?
A4: Yes, the dose needs to be repeated or serological evidence of immunity obtained (where
acceptable under NYS school immunization regulations) if a dose of vaccine was
administered more than 4 calendar days before the recommended minimum age or
interval. Students whose immunization records show invalid intervals between doses of
vaccine as specified by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) catchup schedule can be considered "in process."

source https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/schools/docs/questions_and_answers.pdf
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on March 13, 2021, 11:22:26 PM
Is there a tool online where you can search for the Pfizer vaccine? I've had absolutely no luck so far.
Why specifically Pfizer?

You can try calling drug stores and see which one they use.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on March 14, 2021, 12:18:19 AM
I believe based on a @biobook post it makes more sense to get it very late than very early, but based on the CHEMED interview of Dr. Paul Offit (immunologist from CHOP, hes also on the FDA vaccine approval board) less than 4 days early or late really doesnt matter.
I don't remember saying anything like that, but I forget a lot of what I say soon after.  I vaguely remember someone else quoting CDC (can't remember who it was) so I just looked it up there, and this is their advice:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html

"The second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible, but not earlier than recommended (i.e., 3 weeks [Pfizer-BioNTech] or 1 month [Moderna]). However, second doses administered within a grace period of 4 days earlier than the recommended date for the second dose are still considered valid. If it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval and a delay in vaccination is unavoidable, the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines may be administered up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose. Currently, only limited data are available on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window."

I think that they mean that these two choices (4 d earlier, up to 6 wk later) are equally good for reaching optimal antibody/immunity that will persist for a relatively long term.  So if your second shot is scheduled for March 19, you could get it as soon as March 15 or as late as April 30, and your antibody levels would be equally as good in May-December, or maybe even beyond that. 

But you may be more concerned about what happens in the short term, in March-April.  If you want to be around people during that March15-April 30 interval, and if these are people who could potentially infect you, or people who are vulnerable and may be infected by you, that it would be better to get that second dose earlier, so that you get that boost in antibody sooner during that interval.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2021, 12:24:56 AM
Why specifically Pfizer?

You can try calling drug stores and see which one they use.

Most of the pharmacies on the vaccine finder are Moderna, though some are Pfizer. So far the federal/state mass vaccination sites like the one at Medgar Evers are all Pfizer.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on March 14, 2021, 07:49:41 AM
I don't remember saying anything like that, but I forget a lot of what I say soon after.  I vaguely remember someone else quoting CDC (can't remember who it was) so I just looked it up there, and this is their advice:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html

"The second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible, but not earlier than recommended (i.e., 3 weeks [Pfizer-BioNTech] or 1 month [Moderna]). However, second doses administered within a grace period of 4 days earlier than the recommended date for the second dose are still considered valid. If it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval and a delay in vaccination is unavoidable, the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines may be administered up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose. Currently, only limited data are available on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window."

I think that they mean that these two choices (4 d earlier, up to 6 wk later) are equally good for reaching optimal antibody/immunity that will persist for a relatively long term.  So if your second shot is scheduled for March 19, you could get it as soon as March 15 or as late as April 30, and your antibody levels would be equally as good in May-December, or maybe even beyond that. 

But you may be more concerned about what happens in the short term, in March-April.  If you want to be around people during that March15-April 30 interval, and if these are people who could potentially infect you, or people who are vulnerable and may be infected by you, that it would be better to get that second dose earlier, so that you get that boost in antibody sooner during that interval.
You read it wrong, it says 6 weeks after the first dose, not 6 weeks late. The grace period they give is only 2 weeks late.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on March 14, 2021, 02:21:51 PM
You read it wrong, it says 6 weeks after the first dose, not 6 weeks late. The grace period they give is only 2 weeks late.
@avromie7 @Yehuda57 @Dan
Yes, you are right, and thanks for the correction.  I scanned this too quickly.  So delaying the second dose till 6 weeks after the first dose would translate into 2 weeks after the scheduled second dose of Moderna, or 3 weeks after the scheduled second dose of Pfizer.  Did I get that right?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 15, 2021, 02:55:29 PM
Sorry for treating this thread as a general Pfizer vaccine thread. For those who did not have Covid, how long after the second dose can one expect to begin experiencing side effects?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2021, 02:57:57 PM
Sorry for treating this thread as a general Pfizer vaccine thread. For those who did not have Covid, how long after the second dose can one expect to begin experiencing side effects?

How soon? Potentially right away which is why they keep people around for 15m for monitoring (I'm considering an allergic reaction to be a side effect).
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 15, 2021, 02:59:51 PM
How soon? Potentially right away which is why they keep people around for 15m for monitoring (I'm considering an allergic reaction to be a side effect).

No, I'm talking about the fever and other "sick" side effects. I would assume if you didn't have an immediate reaction to the first dose, you wouldn't have for the second either.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2021, 03:03:49 PM
No, I'm talking about the fever and other "sick" side effects. I would assume if you didn't have an immediate reaction to the first dose, you wouldn't have for the second either.

1. Side effects are expected to last 24-48hr, would probably kick in pretty soon.
2. FWIU such side effects are likelier at the 2nd dose (or the 1st dose for those who've already had COVID), because the immune system is already primed to react to the COVID spike in the vaccine and will thus react stronger.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on March 15, 2021, 03:06:26 PM
Sorry for treating this thread as a general Pfizer vaccine thread. For those who did not have Covid, how long after the second dose can one expect to begin experiencing side effects?
I had fever/achiness starting around 8 hours after the second shot and it lasted a bit under 24 hours. Just arm soreness after the first.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on March 15, 2021, 03:17:44 PM
How have the 2nd dose side effects been for people who had COVID?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yitzgar on March 15, 2021, 06:49:31 PM
I had fever/achiness starting around 8 hours after the second shot and it lasted a bit under 24 hours. Just arm soreness after the first.
This is what I've heard from most people who got both pfizer and moderna. (People who never had coronavirus)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2021, 10:42:22 AM
Is there a tool online where you can search for the Pfizer vaccine? I've had absolutely no luck so far.

@Something Fishy in case you havent found yet

Pfizer available in Manhattan tomorrow and Friday:
https://northwellvaccine.force.com/s/?id=a1T4x000007TQSKEA4

Found using https://nycvaccinelist.com/?includeDose=unspecified&includePharmacy=false
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Something Fishy on March 17, 2021, 10:56:42 AM
@Something Fishy in case you havent found yet

Pfizer available in Manhattan tomorrow and Friday:
https://northwellvaccine.force.com/s/?id=a1T4x000007TQSKEA4

Found using https://nycvaccinelist.com/?includeDose=unspecified&includePharmacy=false

Thanks!

Actually found in Monsey, scheduled for tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2021, 11:23:13 AM
Thanks!

Actually found in Monsey, scheduled for tomorrow.

Awesome! Cheers!
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on March 17, 2021, 11:26:30 AM
Thanks!

Actually found in Monsey, scheduled for tomorrow.

Get it on your non-Tefillin arm
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2021, 11:35:06 AM
Get it on your non-Tefillin arm

So you'll have two יד כההs... :D
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2021, 11:39:32 AM
@Something Fishy in case you havent found yet

Pfizer available in Manhattan tomorrow and Friday:
https://northwellvaccine.force.com/s/?id=a1T4x000007TQSKEA4

Found using https://nycvaccinelist.com/?includeDose=unspecified&includePharmacy=false

What are the requirements? Can visitors to the US get it?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2021, 11:42:19 AM
What are the requirements? Can visitors to the US get it?

With Biden in charge, certainly:
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/02/01/dhs-statement-equal-access-covid-19-vaccines-and-vaccine-distribution-sites

But would likely have to claim US residence, presumably in the state in which they're getting vaccinated.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: whacked1 on March 17, 2021, 11:53:01 AM
With Biden in charge, certainly:
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/02/01/dhs-statement-equal-access-covid-19-vaccines-and-vaccine-distribution-sites

But would likely have to claim US residence, presumably in the state in which they're getting vaccinated.
I provided "residency docs" to someone from out of state, he wasnt asked for anything. He provided passport for id though
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2021, 11:59:15 AM
I provided "residency docs" to someone from out of state, he wasnt asked for anything. He provided passport for id though

Appointment confirmation states:
Quote
Identification:
Sufficient identification includes a driver's license, passport, or any legal proof of your date of birth and residency. Note that
non-NYS residents may be vaccinated if they work in NYS in an eligible occupation. Minors under the age of 18, a parent or
guardian is required to identify the minor.

What does "any legal proof" mean? To me that sounds ambiguous. My guess is a foreign passport along with proof of residency will suffice. Proof of residency is ostensibly easier. For sites that require residency in a specific zipcode here's what the confirmation says:

Quote
Sufficient identification includes a driver's license, passport, or any legal proof of your date of birth and residency. Note that
non-NYS residents may be vaccinated if they work in NYS in an eligible occupation. Minors under the age of 18, a parent or
guardian is required to identify the minor.

Keep in mind the mass vaccination centers do 1k-6k vaccinations a day, that's hundreds an hour. People are in and out in less than 20m including 15m post-jab for observation. The mindset is efficiency: Here's my appointment confirmation, my eligibility proof, my ID, my NYC vaccination form confirmation (demographic info collection BS), etc. As long as the person processing you can check all the boxes, they want you to get out of their way so they can get to the next person. I doubt they're scrutinizing anything too closely.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 01, 2021, 05:44:36 PM
No, I'm talking about the fever and other "sick" side effects. I would assume if you didn't have an immediate reaction to the first dose, you wouldn't have for the second either.

Ftr, I didn't have any side effects at all (aside from a sore arm) after the second shot. Anecdotally, people getting Pfizer seem to have much lighter side effects than Moderna. It's this generally true, or just among the people I know?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Euclid on April 01, 2021, 05:50:00 PM
Ftr, I didn't have any side effects at all (aside from a sore arm) after the second shot. Anecdotally, people getting Pfizer seem to have much lighter side effects than Moderna. It's this generally true, or just among the people I know?
Lol I heard anecdotes in reverse.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on April 01, 2021, 06:55:57 PM
Ftr, I didn't have any side effects at all (aside from a sore arm) after the second shot. Anecdotally, people getting Pfizer seem to have much lighter side effects than Moderna. It's this generally true, or just among the people I know?
Sure seems that way from my group of friends.
Anecdotal though of course.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: grodnoking on April 01, 2021, 07:06:24 PM
Anyone have a good answer to why antibodies are not good enough for all these things you need to be vaccinated for, or have a recent covid test (such as sports games in NY)?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: kargagaliciana on April 01, 2021, 07:07:12 PM
I'm looking to get the J&J vaccine. Does anyone know where I can get in Brooklyn?. Everything I find in vaccinefinder says no appointments available.

Maybe we can start a new thread for this?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: incendia on April 01, 2021, 07:25:49 PM
I'm looking to get the J&J vaccine. Does anyone know where I can get in Brooklyn?. Everything I find in vaccinefinder says no appointments available.

Maybe we can start a new thread for this?

Try cold calling independent pharmacies.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 01, 2021, 08:48:23 PM
I'm looking to get the J&J vaccine. Does anyone know where I can get in Brooklyn?. Everything I find in vaccinefinder says no appointments available.

Maybe we can start a new thread for this?

Does the Javits Center nighttime vaccination center have appointments available? They were only doing J&J there at night.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: alitvak on April 01, 2021, 09:19:49 PM
How have the 2nd dose side effects been for people who had COVID?

+1?

Also looking for info about the Moderna same question.
(asking as someone who had pretty rough s/e to first shot a year after recovering from covid.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: kargagaliciana on April 01, 2021, 09:33:46 PM
Does the Javits Center nighttime vaccination center have appointments available? They were only doing J&J there at night.

No appointments available for J&J at the Javits center. They have only Pfizer appointment available.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Traveler718 on April 01, 2021, 09:58:06 PM
Ftr, I didn't have any side effects at all (aside from a sore arm) after the second shot. Anecdotally, people getting Pfizer seem to have much lighter side effects than Moderna. It's this generally true, or just among the people I know?

My wife got Pfizer and had virtually no side effects, while I got Moderna and definitely had more - sore arm for a few days, plus a few hours of chills and fever. Since the plural of anecdote is data. :)

If it's true, I wonder if it could be related to the fact that Moderna has much more vaccine in a vial than Pfizer (100 micrograms vs. 30). @biobook
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 01, 2021, 10:32:03 PM
If it's true, I wonder if it could be related to the fact that Moderna has much more vaccine in a vial than Pfizer (100 micrograms vs. 30). @biobook

I wonder if this might translate to better long-term immunity with Moderna, my gut tells me it wont, and if it will and COVID will still be a thing, theres always boosters.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: mod on April 01, 2021, 11:29:15 PM
+1?

Also looking for info about the Moderna same question.
(asking as someone who had pretty rough s/e to first shot a year after recovering from covid.
I got the moderna and had covid about 6 months earlier. After the first, I had the chills and slight fever after first dose. Nothing after the second,  but I was taking ibuprofen around the clock after I received the second dose.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on April 01, 2021, 11:37:05 PM
This summary shows more reactions to Moderna vs Pfizer to first dose:  fever: 8.2% vs 5.8%, chills 8.4% vs. 5.5%.  So yeah, more side effects, but not a huge difference.  https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/03/26/comparing-covid-vaccines/

There was also a specific rash that was reported for Moderna, about a week after injection.  https://www.massgeneral.org/news/press-release/MGH-researchers-call-for-greater-awareness-of-delayed-skin-reactions-after-moderna-covid19-vaccine

Also slightly more allergic responses with Moderna: 
Scientists from Massachusetts General Hospital and Brigham and Women's Hospital administered email, text, phone, and smartphone app survey links to 64,900 employees who received a dose of one of the two mRNA coronavirus vaccines from Dec 16, 2020, to Feb 12, 2021.

A total of 25,929 employees (40%) received the Pfizer vaccine, while 38,971 (60%) received the Moderna vaccine. Eighty-one percent returned at least one symptom survey, which were sent each day for 3 days after vaccination.

Among all vaccinated employees, 1,365 (2.10%) reported acute allergic reactions, defined on the survey as itching, rash, hives, swelling, and/or respiratory symptoms. More Moderna vaccinees (2.20%) reported symptoms than Pfizer vaccinees (1.95%).
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/very-few-severe-allergic-reactions-tied-mrna-covid-vaccines

So, yes, slightly more side effects with Moderna, but not 3 times as much, so not obvious that it would relate to the weight of the vaccine.  What contributes to that difference in weight?  Is it a difference in the amount of mRNA, or are there differences in the amount of lipid and sugar included in each vaccine?   I really don't know the answers to any of these. 

But speaking of drawing conclusions from an n of 2:  My mother had no reaction at all, while I had a sore arm both times (Pfizer).  I had read that side effects decrease with age, so from this I concluded that my mother must be older than me.   ::)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 01, 2021, 11:51:13 PM
My mother had no reaction at all, while I had a sore arm both times (Pfizer).  I had read that side effects decrease with age, so from this I concluded that my mother must be older than me.   ::)

Science (https://i.postimg.cc/wTXBqhRT/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 02, 2021, 03:20:53 AM
speaking of drawing conclusions from an n of 2:  My mother had no reaction at all, while I had a sore arm both times (Pfizer).  I had read that side effects decrease with age, so from this I concluded that my mother must be older than me.   ::)
I wonder if the sore arm is a result of the vaccine in the blood system or the needle / vaccine in the arm, in which case it may make a difference how the actual injection is administered
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 02, 2021, 03:23:17 AM
Anyone have a good answer to why antibodies are not good enough for all these things you need to be vaccinated for, or have a recent covid test (such as sports games in NY)?
Yes, the vaccines are more effective at preventing illness than a prior infection, especially with variants
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on April 02, 2021, 07:55:39 AM
Anyone have a good answer to why antibodies are not good enough for all these things you need to be vaccinated for, or have a recent covid test (such as sports games in NY)?
Politics.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on April 02, 2021, 07:56:48 AM
Yes, the vaccines are more effective at preventing illness than a prior infection, especially with variants
Source?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 02, 2021, 08:25:07 AM
Source?

Quote
evidence of prior infection with the presumptive original SARS-CoV-2 did not confer protection against probable B.1.351 disease (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.25.21252477v1)

vs

Quote
In South Africa, where the B.1.351 lineage is prevalent and 800 participants were enrolled, nine cases of COVID-19 were observed, all in the placebo group, indicating vaccine efficacy of 100% (95% CI, [53.5, 100.0]). In an exploratory analysis, the nine strains were sequenced and six of the nine were confirmed to be of the B.1.351 lineage. These data support previous results from immunogenicity studies demonstrating that BNT162b2 induced a robust neutralizing antibody response to the B1.351 variant, and although lower than to the wild-type strain, it does not appear to affect the high observed efficacy against this variant.i (https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious=)

וכהנה רבות, I just don't think any amount of information will sway your preconceived notions.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: incendia on April 02, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
I'm looking to get the J&J vaccine. Does anyone know where I can get in Brooklyn?. Everything I find in vaccinefinder says no appointments available.

Maybe we can start a new thread for this?

Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2021, 07:20:33 PM
Poll:
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/free-stuff/get-free-laminated-copy-covid-vaccine-card-will-get-covid-19-vaccine/
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 07, 2021, 07:40:58 PM
Poll:
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/free-stuff/get-free-laminated-copy-covid-vaccine-card-will-get-covid-19-vaccine/

What does the poll have to do with the laminated card?

Also, surprised how many respondents didnt have COVID, though Id think theyre more likely to vote on such a poll.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yelped on April 11, 2021, 09:14:55 AM
https://liveandletsfly.com/covid-19-vaccine-virtue-signaling/
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yuneeq on April 12, 2021, 06:54:38 PM
Had COVID with antibodies, and looking to get vaxxed soon. Haven't been following closely, what's the better course of action to prevent COVID long term, and which has least side effects?

1 shot of Pfizer/Moderna
1 shot J&J

I don't plan on taking 2 shots bec. FWIU it's unnecessary for COVID recoverers.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 12, 2021, 07:16:06 PM
Had COVID with antibodies, and looking to get vaxxed soon. Haven't been following closely, what's the better course of action to prevent COVID long term, and which has least side effects?

1 shot of Pfizer/Moderna
1 shot J&J

I don't plan on taking 2 shots bec. FWIU it's unnecessary for COVID recoverers.

I dont think this question has been studied or a conclusive answer is known, but you can ask your doctor.

The data we have (for those who havent been infected) seems to show marginally better efficacy with Pfizer/Moderna single dose vs JNJ, but there isnt any long term data yet.

As for side effects, I dont think there are comparative studies and all vaccines have a significant likelihood of some immediate side-effects that pass and dont leave any long-term effects, and an extremely small risk of more serious side effects that are so rare theyre considered negligible.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yuneeq on April 12, 2021, 07:26:42 PM
I dont think this question has been studied or a conclusive answer is known, but you can ask your doctor.

The data we have (for those who havent been infected) seems to show marginally better efficacy with Pfizer/Moderna single dose vs JNJ, but there isnt any long term data yet.

As for side effects, I dont think there are comparative studies and all vaccines have a significant likelihood of some immediate side-effects that pass and dont leave any long-term effects, and an extremely small risk of more serious side effects that are so rare theyre considered negligible.

Thanks, regarding side effects - not concerned much about long term side effects, rather which one is more likely to knock me out for a few days.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on April 12, 2021, 07:34:02 PM
Thanks, regarding side effects - not concerned much about long term side effects, rather which one is more likely to knock me out for a few days.
Go for Pfizer. Somewhat less likely short term side effects than Moderna. Much more likely to have a quicker answer to variants than J&J.

However note that many countries are reopening only if you're fully vaccinated. If you only do 1 Pfizer you may not qualify to enter. Also worth noting that the 1st shot is worse for people who had COVID, while the 2nd shot is worse for people who didn't have COVID.

/.02
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 12, 2021, 07:35:46 PM
Go for Pfizer. Somewhat less likely short term side effects than Moderna. Much more likely to have a quicker answer to variants than J&J.

However note that many countries are reopening only if you're fully vaccinated. If you only do 1 Pfizer you may not qualify to enter. Also worth noting that the 1st shot is worse for people who had COVID, while the 2nd shot is worse for people who didn't have COVID.

/.02

I also lean toward Pfizer but there isnt any data. I also think its the most internationally recognized vaccine available in the US for countries allowing in fully-vaccinated Americans.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on April 12, 2021, 07:36:38 PM
I also lean toward Pfizer but there isnt any data.
-1.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 12, 2021, 07:40:00 PM
-1.

The study quoted on DDF that shows 5% for Pfizer and 8% for Moderna? If your entire additional exposure is 3% to what very well might be mild symptoms, then in my eyes its a wash.

Either way, the OP was asking whether a vaccinated person should prefer 1 jab of J&J vs. 1 jab of mRNA, and for that specific situation I dont think theres comparative data. Please CMIIW.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: etech0 on April 12, 2021, 10:17:18 PM
Also worth noting that the 1st shot is worse for people who had COVID, while the 2nd shot is worse for people who didn't have COVID.
Someone I know who had covid last march and developed antibodies, had a much bigger reaction (fever etc) to the second moderna shot.

That's just one example obviously, but it could happen...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mootkim on April 12, 2021, 10:22:25 PM
Also worth noting that the 1st shot is worse for people who had COVID, while the 2nd shot is worse for people who didn't have COVID.

/.02
My wife never had Covid and was very sick for 3 days after the 1st Pfizer shot as opposed to nothing from the second shot.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Dan on April 12, 2021, 10:23:31 PM
My wife never had Covid and was very sick for 3 days after the 1st Pfizer shot as opposed to nothing from the second shot.
How do you know she never had COVID?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mootkim on April 12, 2021, 10:25:52 PM
How do you know she never had COVID?
She worked in a hospital throughout the pandemic and consistently got tested. I work in healthcare as well and have been getting tested twice weekly since the beginning without ever testing positive
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 13, 2021, 06:03:40 AM
She worked in a hospital throughout the pandemic and consistently got tested. I work in healthcare as well and have been getting tested twice weekly since the beginning without ever testing positive
The two of you got test throughout January and February 2020?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 13, 2021, 07:04:55 AM
She worked in a hospital throughout the pandemic and consistently got tested. I work in healthcare as well and have been getting tested twice weekly since the beginning without ever testing positive

Was she ever tested for antibodies?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2021, 08:04:21 AM
Had COVID with antibodies, and looking to get vaxxed soon. Haven't been following closely, what's the better course of action to prevent COVID long term, and which has least side effects?

1 shot of Pfizer/Moderna
1 shot J&J

I don't plan on taking 2 shots bec. FWIU it's unnecessary for COVID recoverers.

You may not have a choice:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/fda-recommends-pause-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-blood-clot-cases
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Moshe123 on April 13, 2021, 08:07:28 AM
You may not have a choice:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/fda-recommends-pause-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-blood-clot-cases
[/quote

These people have no clue about cost benefit analysis. As insane as their European counterparts. 1 in a million risk. How about covid risk?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 13, 2021, 08:08:56 AM
You may not have a choice:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/fda-recommends-pause-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-blood-clot-cases

What a disaster. Tylenol has killed more people than the vaccine.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: good sam on April 13, 2021, 08:32:35 AM
You may not have a choice:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/fda-recommends-pause-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-blood-clot-cases
[/quote

These people have no clue about cost benefit analysis. As insane as their European counterparts. 1 in a million risk. How about covid risk?
It's impossible at this point to evaluate the risk. If there is any evidence of causation, no question they have to shut it down and conduct a study.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2021, 08:39:29 AM
You may not have a choice:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/fda-recommends-pause-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-blood-clot-cases

These people have no clue about cost benefit analysis. As insane as their European counterparts. 1 in a million risk. How about covid risk?

Its not 1 in a million risk. Thats the currently known amount of cases of a difficult to diagnose, extremely rare clotting that can take weeks to uncover. Wait a couple weeks to gather more data because it seems to be on the path of the similar AZ vaccine which has 222 cases in 34 million vaccinations.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Lurker on April 13, 2021, 08:40:58 AM
If it works as well as the quoting in these last few posts, they definitely need to shut it down.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2021, 09:04:07 AM
These people have no clue about cost benefit analysis. As insane as their European counterparts. 1 in a million risk. How about covid risk?


Its not 1 in a million risk. Thats the currently known amount of cases of a difficult to diagnose, extremely rare clotting that can take weeks to uncover. Wait a couple weeks to gather more data because it seems to be on the path of the similar AZ vaccine which has 222 cases in 34 million vaccinations.
30 clotting cases in 40 million vaccinations in the UK (possibly) resulting in a handful of deaths.

Vs

459,000 hospitalizations from 4.3 million COVID cases in the UK resulting in 127,000 deaths.

Vaccine hesitancy and regulation due to numbers of this sort just illustrates what poor intuitive statisticians we are.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2021, 09:18:37 AM
What a disaster. Tylenol has killed more people than the vaccine.

I was at a sheva brachos and a waitress with her whole arm covered in tattoos was busy about how she "won't put that stuff in her body"
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 13, 2021, 09:39:49 AM
What a disaster. Tylenol has killed more people than the vaccine.

From overdose maybe?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 13, 2021, 09:40:25 AM
I was at a sheva brachos and a waitress with her whole arm covered in tattoos was busy about how she "won't put that stuff in her body"

Would you like some Diet Coke and supersized fries with that?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 13, 2021, 10:18:01 AM
I was at a sheva brachos and a waitress with her whole arm covered in tattoos was busy about how she "won't put that stuff in her body"

The tortured marriage advice and parsha connections in sheva brachos speeches are far more harmful than the ink, blood clots, 5g or covid.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2021, 11:33:28 AM
The tortured marriage advice and parsha connections in sheva brachos speeches are far more harmful than the ink, blood clots, 5g or covid.
Considering that no one listens it is not a bigger problem than the vaccine no one takes
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: biobook on April 13, 2021, 11:45:10 AM

Its not 1 in a million risk. Thats the currently known amount of cases of a difficult to diagnose, extremely rare clotting that can take weeks to uncover. Wait a couple weeks to gather more data because it seems to be on the path of the similar AZ vaccine which has 222 cases in 34 million vaccinations.
All the clotting cases reported so far were in women, 18-48 years old.  Clotting responses are rare, but well-known to occur (very rarely) in women in that age group, due to hormones naturally occurring in pregnancy, and hormones taken medically, as in birth control pills.  When it says "The FDA said in a press conference Tuesday that it expected the pause to last several days as experts reveiwed available data." I would guess that they're examining in part what the hormonal status was of those few women who showed this response. 

IOW, @yuneeq , this may turn out to be one factor that you needn't consider, unless you're currently pregnant or on BC.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: skyguy918 on April 13, 2021, 11:52:26 AM
My company is giving a half day for each shot, so no thanks J&J ;D (not to mention my appt being on the day of the J&J shutdown). Took under an hour with commute and got 4 hours off for it.

ETA: Just anecdotally, for those in Queens, the York College site is great. There's a free parking lot, the site is quick and efficient (FEMA/national guard run), and they're currently doing Pfizer.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: ExGingi on April 13, 2021, 12:02:15 PM
IOW, @yuneeq , this may turn out to be one factor that you needn't consider, unless you're currently pregnant or on BC.

Now that's one for this thread (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=18685.0) (or at least for the poll).
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Euclid on April 13, 2021, 12:18:27 PM
Quote
Because the clots call for an unusual treatment, however, the organizations are calling for a pause in administering the shot. This will provide them with time to ensure the medical community is aware of the appropriate treatment.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/us-cdc-fda-call-for-pause-in-use-of-jj-vaccine-due-to-rare-blood-clots/

This is a very important point that shouldn't be overlooked in the rush to bash the FDA/CDC.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2021, 01:32:25 PM
All the clotting cases reported so far were in women, 18-48 years old.  Clotting responses are rare, but well-known to occur (very rarely) in women in that age group, due to hormones naturally occurring in pregnancy, and hormones taken medically, as in birth control pills.  When it says "The FDA said in a press conference Tuesday that it expected the pause to last several days as experts reveiwed available data." I would guess that they're examining in part what the hormonal status was of those few women who showed this response. 

IOW, @yuneeq , this may turn out to be one factor that you needn't consider, unless you're currently pregnant or on BC.

Correct, this wasn't a factor that I am worried about myself. However if a 1 in a million turns out to be 10 in a million, and can further be narrowed down to 10 in 250k women ages 18-48, the odds are not so pretty anymore. This is also without taking into account any non-clotting risks.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on April 13, 2021, 02:10:28 PM
30 clotting cases in 40 million vaccinations in the UK (possibly) resulting in a handful of deaths.

Vs

459,000 hospitalizations from 4.3 million COVID cases in the UK resulting in 127,000 deaths.

Vaccine hesitancy and regulation due to numbers of this sort just illustrates what poor intuitive statisticians we are.
Putting it on hold has a very small effect on COVID deaths. There are barely any doses available right now, and anything produced until the pause is lifted can be administered immediately after the pause is lifted. Keeping it going when there is a known danger before evaluating the risks will only make more people wary of the vaccine.

I had COVID about 2 months ago, but even if not I would still wait until demand outpaces supply and we can start hearing the truth about the different vaccines and then decide if and which one to get.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 13, 2021, 02:12:04 PM
My company is giving a half day for each shot, so no thanks J&J ;D (not to mention my appt being on the day of the J&J shutdown). Took under an hour with commute and got 4 hours off for it.

Ive always thought the best way to encourage/incentivize vaccination is to hand out stimulus checks with each dose, youd have people lined up from here to Mars...
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: AsherO on April 13, 2021, 02:13:36 PM
I had COVID about 2 months ago, but even if not I would still wait until supply outpaces demand and we can start hearing the truth about the different vaccines and then decide if and which one to get.

FTFY

ETA: FTFY, this time for real :P
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: avromie7 on April 13, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
FTFY
What did you fix?
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: S209 on April 13, 2021, 02:49:30 PM
Keeping it going when there is a known danger before evaluating the risks will only make more people wary of the vaccine.

I had COVID about 2 months ago, but even if not I would still wait until demand outpaces supply and we can start hearing the truth about the different vaccines and then decide if and which one to get.
Im not saying its not the correct move on their part, Im saying that the fact that individuals become instinctively wary shows what terrible intuitive decision makers we are.

The threat of severe illness from COVID is at least a hundred thousand times more likely than the threat of severe adverse action from any vaccine, no matter what vaccine or what demographic you are, with the possible exception of very young healthy children (we dont have vaccine data on them). For most demographics, its probably more than a million times more likely.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mootkim on April 13, 2021, 07:25:29 PM
Was she ever tested for antibodies?
Yes we both were tested and were negative. My test was done right before we started with the twice weekly testing.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mootkim on April 13, 2021, 07:26:40 PM
The two of you got test throughout January and February 2020?
No but she was tested pretty early on after it was prevalent in NYC in early April.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 14, 2021, 03:37:05 PM
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/us-cdc-fda-call-for-pause-in-use-of-jj-vaccine-due-to-rare-blood-clots/

This is a very important point that shouldn't be overlooked in the rush to bash the FDA/CDC.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 14, 2021, 03:38:39 PM
No but she was tested pretty early on after it was prevalent in NYC in early April.
Plenty of people in NY got Covid before April, especially Jews.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: Mootkim on April 15, 2021, 02:01:17 PM
Plenty of people in NY got Covid before April, especially Jews.
Negative for antibodies at that point.
Title: Re: The Pfizer Vaccine and do people who had COVID already need the vaccine?
Post by: bobeli on April 15, 2021, 06:20:10 PM
Negative for antibodies at that point.
Who had antibody test in April in NY?