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DansDeals Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cbs on December 28, 2011, 09:49:52 PM

Title: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 28, 2011, 09:49:52 PM
did it ever happen, that you bought something on sale / coupons etc. and when you returned the item u got back the price that its at in the store on that day?
in my case i bought a shirt in macys a bit ago for $9.99 after a few discounts etc.. and when i came to return it without the receipt, they scanned the barcode and said i get back $19.99 !
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: JEWDA on December 28, 2011, 09:57:20 PM
I never tried w/o receipt I never knew they would do that.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 28, 2011, 10:22:11 PM
I never tried w/o receipt I never knew they would do that.
many stores will give you store credit if you dont have a receipt, as i got macys credit
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cholentfresser on December 28, 2011, 10:31:44 PM
If you do a return without a receipt, most stores will give you the lowest price it ever sold at. Either cash, or store credit. however, I know that childrens place will give you back @ the current price.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ShmuliT on December 28, 2011, 11:14:48 PM
Im pretty sure Bed Bath and Beyond will give store credit of current price without a receipt.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 09:19:35 AM
I once bought a hard drive in staples using the $25 off coupon. I returned the hard drive and they gave me the full credit  - Including the $25!
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
I once bought a hard drive in staples using the $25 off coupon. I returned the hard drive and they gave me the full credit  - Including the $25!
for some reason i think that if u use a coupon in many stores and return the item w/o a receipt, the computer wont process that the coupon was in.
like in Macys the 19.99 was the sale price before the discounts i used
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on December 29, 2011, 11:50:26 AM
I have a lot of experience in this.  Bed Bath and Beyond officially will give you store credit for the full price, even if you used a coupon (not on a clearance item).  If you push enough you can get them to give you money back.  I just bought a pair of shoes on Nordstrom.com with a price match for 224.  I returned them without the receipt and got back 320. Generally stores like Gap, Banana, Old Navy, Childrens place will give you a credit for the current selling price.   
Whats the story Halachically?  Is this stealing?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 12:47:47 PM
Whats the story Halachically?  Is this stealing?
i have the same question. i would think if u deliberately go, buy and return and u know they gonna give u more, than its straight up stealing but if it happens that you dont have the receipt and thats what the computer shows then it should be fine - similar to a price mistake online.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on December 29, 2011, 01:33:13 PM
What about purposely returning without the receipt when you have it?  Or is that what you meant?  If you really don't have the receipt then its totally Ta'os Akum.  You can tell them about it but you don't really have to.  Would it still be considered Ta'os Akum if you do it purposely?  They are still making a mistake, even though you led them to do it.  Sorry for rambling.


A little off topic but there are so many cases similar to this.  What if you order something online and it doesn't come.  Call them up and they will either reship it or credit you.  Then you get the original package.  Do you need to notify them?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 01:41:07 PM
What about purposely returning without the receipt when you have it?  Or is that what you meant?  If you really don't have the receipt then its totally Ta'os Akum.  You can tell them about it but you don't really have to.  Would it still be considered Ta'os Akum if you do it purposely?  They are still making a mistake, even though you led them to do it.  Sorry for rambling.


A little off topic but there are so many cases similar to this.  What if you order something online and it doesn't come.  Call them up and they will either reship it or credit you.  Then you get the original package.  Do you need to notify them?
i see what your question is regarding the reciepts and that i dont have an answer for - and its a valid question since you are not required to return with the receipt.

regarding notifying them or returning a double, i dont either know, but it has happened to me before, with a warranty company. i claimed the warranty on my ipod 80GB a few yrs ago since the battary was messed up and i sent it in 3 times back and forth and they couldnt fix so i told them it was around $200 - and they said theyll send me a check of $200.
later i got the receipt from sams club database and it was $230 so i PUTPAC again and they said theyll send a second check of $30.
in the end i got 3 checks! $200, $30, and $200. (and returned the ipod to the warranty place)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on December 29, 2011, 01:52:07 PM
Yeah I think i'm too scared to ask and hear the right answer.

Its happened to me many times.  I ordered shirts from Charles Tyrwitt and they say is should come within 14 business days.  If it doesn't they will credit you because they have no way of tracking it.  Then I got the shirts a week later. 
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 02:08:01 PM
Isnt T'aus A'kum Mutur?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on December 29, 2011, 02:12:07 PM
yes thats what I'm saying.  The question is, is it Taus Akum if you lead them to make the mistake i.e don't give the receipt on purpose?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on December 29, 2011, 02:12:39 PM
Isnt T'aus A'kum Mutur?

But what does T'aus A'kum mean? As in, are these cases even considered T'aus A'kum?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 02:17:04 PM
But what does T'aus A'kum mean? As in, are these cases even considered T'aus A'kum?
eh, i was expecting some sort of qoute from rambam or shu"a (admu"haz) on this matter from, you! ;)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 02:18:13 PM
eh, i was expecting some sort of qoute from rambam or shu"a (admu"haz) on this matter from, you! ;)

Dont think the rambam has anything on T'aus Computer System  ;)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ganizzy on December 29, 2011, 02:19:04 PM
i bought 3 pair of clarks shoes from shoes.com at 20% off (at $100 - $120 a pair - it adds up)
it seems they drop shipped it directly from clarks.
i didnt want 2 pairs, so i returned it directly to a clarks b &m
apparently the reciept i gave them didnt work so they gave me the full price (before sale as well) i mentioned then that i had used a coupon and they told me, well theres nothing we can do - we cant look it up
so i got the money back for 2 pair that was the same amount as 3 pair (a $100 pair of shoes for free)

i think its wrong to return to a store, davka to get more money back bec they cant trace it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 02:21:39 PM
Dont think the rambam has anything on T'aus Computer System  ;)
:) we were discussing what taus akum is though
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on December 29, 2011, 02:22:40 PM
Dont think the rambam has anything on T'aus Computer System  ;)

+1

Reminds me of the following quote:

Quote from: Abraham Lincoln
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that itís difficult to discern whether or not they are genuine.

:) we were discussing what taus akum is though

They didn't have this kind of commerce (and thus this kind of "T'aus") in the Rambam's times.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on December 29, 2011, 02:33:14 PM
I would think if you do it with all the right intentions, i.e. lost the receipt then taht would be considered Taus Akum, which will beg the question, akum, meaning the owner of the store, or the person behind the counter?  Pashtus is that its the owner since thats whos losing.   A lot involved
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
I bought something in Bestbuy that was bundled with a $50 Bestbuy gift card
it came broken, I wanted to exchange it.... But the cashier just refunded me without  asking anything.

So basically I got the $50 GC for free - I havent got charged for the GC yet ...
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: elikay on December 29, 2011, 02:49:56 PM
Either way this does not sound too ethical aka yashrus, and definitely bordering Chll"h to brag about it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on December 29, 2011, 05:26:34 PM
Either way this does not sound too ethical aka yashrus, and definitely bordering Chll"h to brag about it.
i didnt start this thread in order to brag etc.. but i brought up the topic bec a situation happened to me and i was wondering how often it happens, and then ppl are bringing their cases of when it happens. its not in the category of bragging really.

and in a way its not ethical if ur doing it purposely but if it was unintentional, then not speaking up when theyre giving you more is a diff story. 
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Nitantnel on December 29, 2011, 09:16:57 PM
I think it's just funny how business -- as oppose to the government -- makes such mistakes. I had Jos. A Bank give me full price on something I bough for one of their best sales, a $150 mistake...
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: est on December 29, 2011, 09:27:23 PM
in most of the big chain stores even if you tell them you bought it discounted, there is nothing they can do, the system is set up to give back the current price... they will still give full even if you tell them.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: elikay on December 29, 2011, 09:58:30 PM
The only time that I don't mention, is when I bought an item with a MFG coupon and the store will only return minus coupon if shown receipt, even though they will not be pulling that coupon out of the pile. So why should they get the extra 2 bucks when I could.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 10:34:03 PM
The only time that I don't mention, is when I bought an item with a MFG coupon and the store will only return minus coupon if shown receipt, even though they will not be pulling that coupon out of the pile. So why should they get the extra 2 bucks when I could.
Either way this does not sound too ethical aka yashrus, and definitely bordering Chll"h to brag about it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: elikay on December 29, 2011, 10:35:53 PM

I obviously see nothing wrong or Chl"h with such an action, do you?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on December 29, 2011, 10:39:43 PM
I obviously see nothing wrong or Chl"h with such an action, do you?
No, I dont see any either... Just jokin around
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 02:28:53 AM
Either way this does not sound too ethical aka yashrus, and definitely bordering Chll"h to brag about it.
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 07:22:25 AM
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.

Don't  make such broad statements. Just because you are stealing from Costco doesn't mean everyone is
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 08:11:12 AM
Don't  make such broad statements. Just because you are stealing from Costco doesn't mean everyone is
I do remember stealing as a kid but Costco was not around back then. Costco was being talked about before I joined this forum.   :P
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 02, 2012, 09:12:01 AM
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.
i cant agree with you on this one.

Don't  make such broad statements. Just because you are stealing from Costco doesn't mean everyone is
why do u say hes stealing? (sorry for mixing in)

I do remember stealing as a kid but Costco was not around back then. Costco was being talked about before I joined this forum.   :P
and if you are really stealing, then now we know where it comes from!  ;D
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 02:39:31 PM
Buying something which you know you won't keep for cash back and causing the store a 2.5 percent loss on hundreds of  thousans of dollars is stealing in my book
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: whYME on January 02, 2012, 02:49:36 PM
I think it's just funny how business -- as oppose to the government -- makes such mistakes.
If there's one thing the government is good at it's taking your money.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 02, 2012, 02:50:08 PM
Buying something which you know you won't keep for cash back and causing the store a 2.5 percent loss on hundreds of  thousans of dollars is stealing in my book

Where is the 2.5% loss?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: whYME on January 02, 2012, 02:53:39 PM
I recently returned something to Costco (in Brooklyn) without a receipt, they looked up my account to see what I payed for it.
OTOH, there was a time a few years back where they gave me the lowest price the item had sold for...
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 02:57:03 PM
Where is the 2.5% loss?

processing fees.
Buying something which you know you won't keep for cash back and causing the store a 2.5 percent loss on hundreds of  thousans of dollars is stealing in my book

Not everyone uses your book though. Unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 02, 2012, 03:01:12 PM
processing fees.
Not everyone uses your book though. Unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it
Duh, But when you refund the buyer you get back the fees
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 03:01:53 PM
Duh, But when you refund the buyer you get back the fees

not when you are getting cash back instead of putting it back on the card
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 02, 2012, 03:06:31 PM
not when you are getting cash back instead of putting it back on the card
Duh... Didnt realize he meant cash as CASH  ;)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Jkhein on January 02, 2012, 03:07:51 PM
Duh, But when you refund the buyer you get back the fees
not sure about that.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 02, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
not sure about that.

I'm sure
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 03:09:35 PM
not when you are getting cash a check  back instead of putting it back on the card
I fixed it for you. Just want to keep the record straight.   ;D
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 03:10:51 PM
I fixed it for you. Just want to keep the record straight.   ;D

hold on. This changes everything!!  :P
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
[quote author=bubbles link=topic=12672.msg164977#msg164977
Not everyone uses your book though. Unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it
[/quote]
Your right. There is only one book that matters.
And the fact that he got banned for doing it I think is a pretty good indication
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 03:36:29 PM
Your right. There is only one book that matters.
How about we let the author of whatever book we follow decide what is ethical or not. Otherwise every thread will have this discussion even one as simple as buying a stroller, using it and then returning it!  ;)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 03:40:26 PM
Fair enough. Just took exception to the fact that you implied that everyone on thisforum us unethical and I consider myself a very ethical person. (and I think we can all see the difference with the stroller)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 03:45:54 PM
Fair enough. Just took exception to the fact that you implied that everyone on thisforum us unethical and I consider myself a very ethical person. (and I think we can all see the difference with the stroller)

I think you are reading into things that are not there. All that was said is that a deals forum is not the place for ethical discussions. That it no way means that everyone here is unethical. Rather that this is the place to post deals and if you find them unethical don't participate in said deal. If you desire there are plenty of venues to discuss ethical questions. For example how about here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.msg141118#msg141118) :P
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 03:47:25 PM
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.

I just believe this statement to be false
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 03:49:54 PM
I just believe this statement to be false
And you are entitled to your opinion (I'm not saying I disagree). Just in the future try not to make it personal.
Don't  make such broad statements. Just because you are stealing from Costco doesn't mean everyone is
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 03:52:21 PM
Fair enough. Just took exception to the fact that you implied that everyone on thisforum us unethical and I consider myself a very ethical person.
If anyone thought I was calling them unethical then I apologize, that was not my intention of the post. Depending on where your needle falls on the ethical scale someone could make an ethics argument for almost every deal thread, that was the point I was trying to make. I try my best not to judge others and will definitely speak up when I feel the legal line has been crossed.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 03:55:37 PM
I think you are reading into things that are not there. All that was said is that a deals forum is not the place for ethical discussions. That it no way means that everyone here is unethical. Rather that this is the place to post deals and if you find them unethical don't participate in said deal. If you desire there are plenty of venues to discuss ethical questions. For example how about here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.msg141118#msg141118) :P
Can you write my posts for me?  :) Well said!!!
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2012, 04:04:45 PM
Fair enough
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 05:20:38 PM
Not everyone uses your book though. Unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it

Uhm, care to tell me which book, be it the Old Testament, New Testament, US Code, or Dr. Suess (whichever you follow), would not characterize this as unethical and/or stealing?

Anyway you slice it, you're burning the merchant by causing it to incur processing fees with no legitimate sale(s) to counteract those (illegitimate) transactions.

I just believe this statement to be false

+1

I think you are reading into things that are not there. All that was said is that a deals forum is not the place for ethical discussions.

Says who?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 05:34:54 PM
Uhm, care to tell me which book, be it the Old Testament, New Testament, US Code, or Dr. Suess (whichever you follow), would not characterize this as unethical and/or stealing?
So in which of these books does it say out right that to do such a thing is stealing? Or is it your interpretation of it? I did say though
Unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it

Quote from: AJK
+1

Says who?

you are arguing that helpme never said that? or are you claiming that he is not entitled to his opinion?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 05:46:41 PM
So in which of these books does it say out right that to do such a thing is stealing? Or is it your interpretation of it?

Are you being intentionally obstinate to make a point (not even sure what that point would be), or do you actually think this would not constitute stealing by just about every reputable LOR this side of the Mason-Dixon line?

Or, if you don't roll like that, do you actually think that this would be legal according state or federal law? Hint: Start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 05:55:12 PM
Are you being intentionally obstinate to make a point (not even sure what that point would be), or do you actually think this would not constitute stealing by just about every reputable LOR this side of the Mason-Dixon line?

Or, if you don't roll like that, do you actually think that this would be legal according state or federal law? Hint: Start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).

Would buying something with the intention to use for the thirty days until the return period is over and then return constitute stealing? It doesn't according to many LOR's. I am not saying that I know it's completely okay but what I am saying is that just because you have feelings one way or the other doesn't mean you should call someone out on it. And definitely not to get personal. 

Thank you for the link to fraud but does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:15:50 PM
Would buying something with the intention to use for the thirty days until the return period is over and then return constitute stealing? It doesn't according to many LOR's.

Does jaywalking constitute chillul Hashem? Not the topic under discussion.

I am not saying that I know it's completely okay but what I am saying is that just because you have feelings one way or the other doesn't mean you should call someone out on it. And definitely not to get personal. 

This is not about personal feelings. This is about facts. And your statement "...unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it" is so patently (and seemingly purposely) naive it boggles the mind.

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.


Thank you for the link to fraud but does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?

Try this one on for size (http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0190.60_190.60.html). There are many state laws like it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 06:20:16 PM
Does jaywalking constitute chillul Hashem? Not the topic under discussion.

This is not about personal feelings. This is about facts. And your statement "...unless you are coming from a legitimate source I don't think you can call anyone out about it" is so patently (and seemingly purposely) naive it boggles the mind.

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.


Try this one on for size (http://quote author=bubbles link=topic=12672.msg165074#msg165074 date=1325544912). There are many state laws like it.

first off congrads on number 3000  :)

and please fix the link to the state law
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:21:55 PM
first off congrads on number 3000  :)

and please fix the link to the state law

Thanks.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 06:26:11 PM

Fixed.

what is that link showing any more than your previous one?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:27:42 PM
what is that link showing any more than your previous one?

One is a Wiki article. The other is an actual NY State Criminal Law.

But you knew that already...
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 06:30:12 PM
One is a Wiki article. The other is an actual NY State Criminal Law.

But you knew that already...
exactly! so the question remains why was that an appropriate response to

Thank you for the link to fraud but does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:32:38 PM
exactly! so the question remains why was that an appropriate response to

Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

As I said:

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 02, 2012, 06:35:30 PM
...does this really constitute fraud when technically you are staying within the guidelines of their policies?
"We guarantee your satisfaction on every product we sell with a full refund."
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 06:40:19 PM
Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

Also very true! and yet my question still remains that if it is in the guidelines of the stores policies does it still constitute fraud?

I know a few prosecutors who would be licking their chops after getting their hands on someone who perpetrated this scheme on an unsuspecting merchant to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

you spoke to them about this or you are assuming based on how you feel?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:43:27 PM
Also very true! and yet my question still remains that if it is in the guidelines of the stores policies does it still constitute fraud?

For the second time,

Stores policies ≠ criminal law provisions.

Whether or not it violates store policy is irrelevant to the question of criminal fraud.

you spoke to them about this or you are assuming based on how you feel?

Good friends of mine in the Manhattan DA's office. We do lunch often :)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: bubbles on January 02, 2012, 06:56:53 PM

Whether or not it violates store policy is irrelevant to the question of criminal fraud.


Interesting. My understanding was that if the store allows you to do it then it's not fraud. So you're saying that since their intentions for allowing returns was not for this purpose then it's fraud?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 06:59:17 PM
Interesting. My understanding was that if the store allows you to do it then it's not fraud. So you're saying that since their intentions for allowing returns was not for this purpose then it's fraud?

Riddle me this: Do you think, even for a second, that if the store was aware of these activities schemes, they wouldn't perma-ban them?

Think about it.

If after having thought about it, you think not, take a jaunt over to FWF and see for yourself :)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 02, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
Riddle me this: Do you think, even for a second, that if the store was aware of these activities schemes, they wouldn't perma-ban them?
That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: whYME on January 02, 2012, 08:07:15 PM
Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.
I think that's kinda what "HelpMe" was trying to say with this post:
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 02, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.
+1

To many threads get off topic and talk about ethical....
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 02, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.  There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

I'd agree, but I reserve the right to comment on (and question) posts which so fly in the face of accepted norms that they don't pass even the "smell" test.

Use some common sense... f'real.

I think that's kinda what "HelpMe" was trying to say with this post:
Ethical behavior and any deals forum have very little in common.

That's still an inane comment, IMHO.

...for host of reasons.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on January 03, 2012, 01:00:39 AM

Anyway I do agree with the sentiment that ethical discussion should be contained within an ethical discussion thread.
There's no need to start questioning every time if something is ethical, as quite frankly that can apply to every single thread.  Is churning ethical?  Is status matching ethical?  Is flying on mistake fares ethical?  There's no end to it.

I've been saying this forever.

You're (virtually) the only one in place who can set this up. Can we please get an ethics (halacha?) forum where people can hash these things out ad infinitum/nauseum?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 01:24:11 AM
That's why said members (including HelpMe) have been banned from so many stores and payment processors, and they even brag about it.
The trick IMHO is to know your limits.  To make bank without losing the privilege of shopping at Costco for the rest of your life.
Now this is pretty funny. I get hammered for not providing more information then when I do I get it thrown back in my face that I am bragging.

What most members are doing with payment processors is against their T&Cís. It does not matter if you are doing it for $1 or 10k it is still against the T&Cís. I know ahead of time at some point I will be banned by a payment processor so others can learn what the limit might be. Is this a bad thing?

Buying items and returning them just to earn points/miles was talked on this forum before I joined. Where was the outrage then? Is this just a case where it is OK to steal a little but not OK to do it for large amounts?

I try to look at everything with an open mind. I was hoping it was just my style of posting that is the cause of all the hatred towards me. It gets to a point you have to start looking for other reasons. Maybe I will watch the first two episodes of Verplanck to see if I can find the answer.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2012, 10:31:24 AM
You are correct about the payment processing, which is why I don't do them. I think the outrage in this thread comes from your statement about lack odd ethics.

In general it probably comes from the scale which you are doing it on which I agree with you has no effect on its ethics and because you do it systematically
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 10:37:00 AM
Now this is pretty funny. I get hammered for not providing more information then when I do I get it thrown back in my face that I am bragging.
Didn't mean to say you bragged about it, I was referring to the threads on FWF where people are practically giddy about about how many bans they have.

Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 10:41:01 AM
I think the outrage in this thread comes from your statement about lack odd ethics.
Hopefully you and some others realize that I originally did not choose the best words to make my point and did my best to clear it up.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 10:44:04 AM
Didn't mean to say you bragged about it, I was referring to the threads on FWF where people are practically giddy about about how many bans they have.
I think we both can agree that FWF is a very different type of forum.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 10:45:00 AM
Buying items and returning them just to earn points/miles was talked on this forum before I joined. Where was the outrage then? Is this just a case where it is OK to steal a little but not OK to do it for large amounts?
There has been outrage before on that very subject.

And I agree that technically there's no difference between $1 and $1M ethically.  But practically there is a difference, hence why you got banned from Costco and other stores et al and people here are not.  There's a line that gets crossed that I would rather not cross.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
I think we both can agree that FWF is a very different type of forum.
Not really, we just have different ideas of how far to push the system and the best way to milk the system.
My motto is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

I think most here prefer getting fat without the slaughtered part, while people there (including you) would rather push everything to an extreme and just get slaughtered in the process.  Not smart IMHO as I'd rather still be welcome to use those services for legit reasons in the future, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: JEWDA on January 03, 2012, 10:51:45 AM
Not really, we just have different ideas of how far to push the system and the best way to milk the system.
My motto is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

I think most here prefer getting fat without the slaughtered part, while people there (including you) would rather push everything to an extreme and just get slaughtered in the process.  Not smart IMHO as I'd rather still be welcome to use those services for legit reasons in the future, but to each their own.
+1
Well said.
Title: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 03, 2012, 10:56:12 AM
My motto is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
Like :)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 11:00:52 AM
Not really, we just have different ideas of how far to push the system and the best way to milk the system.
My motto is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

I think most here prefer getting fat without the slaughtered part, while people there (including you) would rather push everything to an extreme and just get slaughtered in the process.  Not smart IMHO as I'd rather still be welcome to use those services for legit reasons in the future, but to each their own.
We really should be careful with generalizations. I already made that mistake in this thread. While I will push some deals to the limit, I am also ultra conservative when it comes to CC applications. This is the main reason I have never had AA from a CC company.

Knowing what will happen ahead of time is a great advantage on a deal. You then make your own decision based on risk vs reward. Take Costco for example, you donít need to be a member to shop there. You can show a Costco cash card and be admitted. So is there anything really lost if they revoke your membership?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 11:07:20 AM
I am also ultra conservative when it comes to CC applications. This is the main reason I have never had AA from a CC company.
That's your loss.  I've probably opened 500 credit cards over the past 7 years to the tune of 8 figures worth of miles and never gotten a single card closed on me.

Knowing what will happen ahead of time is a great advantage on a deal. You then make your own decision based on risk vs reward. Take Costco for example, you donít need to be a member to shop there. You can show a Costco cash card and be admitted. So is there anything really lost if they revoke your membership?
Let me know how you shop on Costco.com.
Or try to return things to a store.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
That's your loss.  I've probably opened 500 credit cards over the past 7 years to the tune of 8 figures worth of miles and never gotten a single card closed on me.
I will try and put this so we donít have to rehash anything. A high cash back card is too valuable to me to risk any chance of a denial.

Let me know how you shop on Costco.com.
Or try to return things to a store.
What I refer to as a Costco ban is not that bad. Membership under one of my businesses is not a problem.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 11:24:39 AM
I will try and put this so we donít have to rehash anything. A high cash back card is too valuable to me to risk any chance of a denial.
What I refer to as a Costco ban is not that bad. Membership under one of my businesses is not a problem.
See that's where you and sd/fwf go wrong.  Having no clue whatsoever about the worth of an airline mile.

And I've read about folk whose address is perma-banned from Costco, etc.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 11:37:00 AM
See that's where you and sd/fwf go wrong.  Having no clue whatsoever about the worth of an airline mile.

And I've read about folk whose address is perma-banned from Costco, etc.
Please donít lump FWF with SD. FW does have a hot deals forum that can be lumped with SD.
If I am welcome maybe I will show up at one of your DOís and then you can judge me on if I know what an airline mile is worth.

For Costco you can use a PO Box or PMB. Anyway I have different addresses for my businesses.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 11:40:51 AM
If I am welcome maybe I will show up at one of your DOís and then you can judge me on if I know what an airline mile is worth.
If you knew what I did and can do with them, you'd be singing a different tune.  But you're welcome to a DO anytime.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 11:51:40 AM
If you knew what I did and can do with them, you'd be singing a different tune.  But you're welcome to a DO anytime.
Confidence is something you do not lack but from where I sit you are underestimating your opponent.

That reminds me, did you ever look into the two cards I mentioned?  ;)
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: ez1985 on January 10, 2012, 03:07:24 PM
I just spoke to a rav about the whole taus akum thing.  He told me that even if you have a receipt and you purposely hold it back from the store in order to get more, that is still muttar.  The only way it would be a problem is if you lets say bough two pairs of the same shoes, one on sale and one full price.  If you go to return the sale one with the full price receipt, there since you are proactively misleading them that is assur.  Otherwise, it is their problem.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 10, 2012, 10:39:35 PM
I just spoke to a rav about the whole taus akum thing.  He told me that even if you have a receipt and you purposely hold it back from the store in order to get more, that is still muttar.  The only way it would be a problem is if you lets say bough two pairs of the same shoes, one on sale and one full price.  If you go to return the sale one with the full price receipt, there since you are proactively misleading them that is assur.  Otherwise, it is their problem.
nice. i guess im all good (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12672.msg163162#msg163162)!
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: JEWDA on January 15, 2012, 05:26:08 PM
I just returned a pair of pants I got at macy's for $41 and got back $74.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2012, 05:27:54 PM
I just returned a pair of pants I got at macy's for $41 and got back $74.
was it on sale when u bought it? did u have the receipt? details?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on January 15, 2012, 05:30:29 PM
was it on sale when u bought it? did u have the receipt? details?

+1

Also, did you get back $74 cash or $74 Macy's credit?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: JEWDA on January 15, 2012, 05:59:07 PM
was it on sale when u bought it? did u have the receipt? details?
Was on sale when I bought it, and I had coupons. I retuned it w/o receipt and they said they're mailing me a credit. Pants are reg. $125
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2012, 06:12:35 PM
Was on sale when I bought it, and I had coupons. I retuned it w/o receipt and they said they're mailing me a credit. Pants are reg. $125
so i what i think what happens at macys is that the system picks up the sale but not the coupons or additional discounts like open a CC
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on January 15, 2012, 08:22:33 PM
so i what i think what happens at macys is that the system picks up the sale but not the coupons or additional discounts like open a CC

Not worth the credit pull, unless you're buying thousands of dollars worth.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2012, 09:26:41 PM
Not worth the credit pull, unless you're buying thousands of dollars worth.
well say in my case, i opened a CC and got a bunch of discounts for that day, but its not AMEX its just usable in macys stores. is that a hard pull?

and its supposed to build credit that way no?
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 15, 2012, 09:27:42 PM
well say in my case, i opened a CC and got a bunch of discounts for that day, but its not AMEX its just usable in macys stores. is that a hard pull?

and its supposed to build credit that way no?

Still a hard pull.

Yes, but you can "build credit" and get "paid" more :P
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2012, 09:29:41 PM
Still a hard pull.

Yes, but you can "build credit" and get "paid" more :P
ive got one thing in mind that u might be talking about, but im not sure and hence dont want to say it. do u mind explaining the "joke"?!

Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 15, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
No joke.

You can build credit with the Macy's card and get a discount of X, or build credit with a card like Sapphire Preferred and get the equivalent of thousands of dollars in redemption value.

CMIIW, but you likely did not get "thousands of dollars" off your Macy's purchase.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AsherO on January 15, 2012, 09:38:07 PM
well say in my case, i opened a CC and got a bunch of discounts for that day, but its not AMEX its just usable in macys stores. is that a hard pull?

and its supposed to build credit that way no?

Still a hard pull.

+1

If you don't have credit it might be worth it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2012, 09:38:52 PM
No joke.

You can build credit with the Macy's card and get a discount of X, or build credit with a card like Sapphire Preferred and get the equivalent of thousands of dollars in redemption value.

CMIIW, but you likely did not get "thousands of dollars" off your Macy's purchase.
it sounded like a joke and i did have something else in mind :) but ur right i did not get what i couldve got with SP, BUT some its not that simple always just "to get" a card, im working on building a good credit history so i can start applying for cards and get worth out of them instead of getting denied everytime
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: AJK on January 15, 2012, 09:41:57 PM
it sounded like a joke and i did have something else in mind :) but ur right i did not get what i couldve got with SP, BUT some its not that simple always just "to get" a card, im working on building a good credit history so i can start applying for cards and get worth out of them instead of getting denied everytime

Though it obviously differs for each person, I remember reading on here that people (more than a one) with very new/short credit history have gotten approved for CSP. Too lazy to find it.
Title: Re: Bought on sale and got back more
Post by: Name Changed on January 16, 2012, 03:20:03 PM
If you don't have credit it might be worth it.

I would say it is worth it - as you basically will get approved.
You might need to prove income or that sort, but department stores are easy to get approved for someone that doesnt have credit...

Either way this is getting off topic