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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 01:22:09 PM

Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2012, 01:22:09 PM
Post any ethical discussion you may have in this thread.
Any ethics discussions made in other threads from now on will be deleted.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Name Changed on January 03, 2012, 01:31:56 PM
Thank You Dan
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chuchem on January 03, 2012, 01:34:04 PM
I dont think its a ethical decision to ban ethical comments....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on January 03, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
I dont think its a ethical decision to ban ethical comments....
Funny man.
No one banned them, they just have to be placed in the right thread.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: JEWDA on January 03, 2012, 01:46:52 PM
Nice one Dan!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 03, 2012, 02:15:52 PM
Ethical to sign up for cards with sign up bonuses and then cancel them after points are received?

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: boruch on January 03, 2012, 04:47:01 PM
Just for a start, something that has been bothering me for a while.
Is it ethical to use your 'hatzolah/shmirah/ chaveirim/etc. Parking permit to park on a handicap spot when you are not on a call/emergency (but just plain lazy)?!
This really bothers me when I see it happening in (Jewish) shopping areas.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ez1985 on January 03, 2012, 05:01:31 PM
Hey wait a second.  Before we start with new ethical discussions, why don't we address the ones that everyone has been fighting about already, i.e buying on sale and getting full price back, and taking advantage of return protection if they aren't going to make you return the item.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: farmerjoe on January 03, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
Hey wait a second.  Before we start with new ethical discussions, why don't we address the ones that everyone has been fighting about already, i.e buying on sale and getting full price back, and taking advantage of return protection if they aren't going to make you return the item.
why cant we discuss both of them?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ez1985 on January 03, 2012, 05:15:40 PM
why cant we discuss both of them?
Yeah we could.  I guess I'm just waiting for all the people who starting making problems on those threads to come over here.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WiddleAvi on January 03, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
I am a little shocked that some of this stuff even has to be asked. If you bought something on sale and they are ready to refund full price you should say something. If they still choose to give you back full amount then it's on them but at least you are honest.  As for the other thread about the canceled amazon purchase: of course you should return the item. Someone is losing the money, either amazon or the seller.  I don't get this idea of it's OK if it's from a goy !! It's NOT OK !!! It's really simple, be honest and do the right thing.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 03, 2012, 05:32:14 PM
Is it ethical to use your 'hatzolah/shmirah/ chaveirim/etc. Parking permit to park on a handicap spot when you are not on a call/emergency (but just plain lazy)?!

I am a little shocked that some of this stuff even has to be asked.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ez1985 on January 03, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
I am a little shocked that some of this stuff even has to be asked. If you bought something on sale and they are ready to refund full price you should say something. If they still choose to give you back full amount then it's on them but at least you are honest.  As for the other thread about the canceled amazon purchase: of course you should return the item. Someone is losing the money, either amazon or the seller.  I don't get this idea of it's OK if it's from a goy !! It's NOT OK !!! It's really simple, be honest and do the right thing.
Excuse me?  First of all, why are you taking for granted that you need to say something?!  If its Taus Akum, that is not necessarily true.  Just because that's what feels right, that is not always what dictates Halacha.  And the same could very possibly go for the Amazon thing.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WiddleAvi on January 03, 2012, 06:13:44 PM
Just because that's what feels right, that is not always what dictates Halacha.

I am glad the Torah is giving you permission to steal.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2012, 06:26:10 PM
Post any ethical discussion you may have in this thread.
Any ethics discussions made in other threads from now on will be deleted.
I commend you on deciding to separate ethical discussions from the threads themselves. Have you considered updating the forum rules with this change?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: JEWDA on January 03, 2012, 06:30:18 PM
Ethical to sign up for cards with sign up bonuses and then cancel them after points are received?
Why not?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 03, 2012, 08:42:21 PM
Why not?

just making conversation
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: muttman on January 03, 2012, 10:15:50 PM
I am glad the Torah is giving you permission to steal.

If a stranger sends you $15 in the mail and you don't return it are you a thief??
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 03, 2012, 10:17:05 PM
If a stranger sends you $15 in the mail and you don't return it are you a thief??

If its a yid and it was done by accident then yeah (or atleast I think so)

now the answer to widdleavi is that I'm glad you're glad. if the torah says it's muttar who are you to assur it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ez1985 on January 04, 2012, 09:47:20 AM
If its a yid and it was done by accident then yeah (or atleast I think so)

now the answer to widdleavi is that I'm glad you're glad. if the torah says it's muttar who are you to assur it?
+1
If the torah gives you permission, then its not stealing!  Halacha isn't always about what FEELS right.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sillypainter on January 04, 2012, 01:26:14 PM
To get miles/points, even if you don't earn (deserve) them.

I am getting thousands of them, but I don't deserve it (no, I don't work hard doing this, I am BH a busy businessman).

I have ways of getting them for free (yes, FREE), some ways of getting them for 0.005/mile, and some ways of getting them for 0.007/mile

Please don't ask me how......I will not reveal the trick, but I fly about 3 firsts (Europe/TLV etc.) every year out of it, I am not overly abusing the system, but I still feel guilty.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on January 04, 2012, 02:09:04 PM
Please don't ask me how......I will not reveal the trick, but I fly about 3 firsts (Europe/TLV etc.) every year out of it, I am not overly abusing the system, but I still feel guilty.
I can only forgive you if you confess completely  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 04, 2012, 08:26:34 PM
To get miles/points, even if you don't earn (deserve) them.

I am getting thousands of them, but I don't deserve it (no, I don't work hard doing this, I am BH a busy businessman).

I have ways of getting them for free (yes, FREE), some ways of getting them for 0.005/mile, and some ways of getting them for 0.007/mile

Please don't ask me how......I will not reveal the trick, but I fly about 3 firsts (Europe/TLV etc.) every year out of it, I am not overly abusing the system, but I still feel guilty.


why are you lying on an anonymous forum?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 04, 2012, 09:29:21 PM
why are you lying on an anonymous forum?

Hee hee...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on January 04, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
I am a little shocked that some of this stuff even has to be asked. If you bought something on sale and they are ready to refund full price you should say something. If they still choose to give you back full amount then it's on them but at least you are honest.  As for the other thread about the canceled amazon purchase: of course you should return the item. Someone is losing the money, either amazon or the seller. I don't get this idea of it's OK if it's from a goy !! It's NOT OK !!! It's really simple, be honest and do the right thing.
your a goy
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 05, 2012, 12:28:23 AM
I am glad the Torah is giving you permission to steal.

Here is something to think about. If you will not be making a kiddush hashem by returning, or chillul hashem by not, is it possible that not only would you not be required to return it but it would actually be an issur of Lo Siíchaíneim?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elikay on January 05, 2012, 12:44:37 AM
Here is something to think about. If you will not be making a kiddush hashem by returning, or chillul hashem by not, is it possible that not only would you not be required to return it but it would actually be an issur of Lo Siíchaíneim?
lol but only possible if you dress like steve2 (for those of us, who are old enough to remember him ;) ).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Side incomer on January 05, 2012, 08:53:27 AM
I think we shouldn't mix "is it ethical?' with "is it allowed according to the halacha?".
After all i think we have no dayanim or rabanim on this forum. (If we do, i sincerely apologize).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2012, 09:40:31 AM
I think we shouldn't mix "is it ethical?' with "is it allowed according to the halacha?".
Especially when some members have no idea what ďhalachaĒ means along with many other words.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 05, 2012, 10:02:21 AM
Especially when some members have no idea what ďhalachaĒ means along with many other words.

Getting a bit OT.

Allot me to bring us back.

Emmanuel Kant, says to , always (no matter what type of situation, tell the truth.
Do you agree with this?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2012, 10:06:07 AM
Emmanuel Kant, says to , always (no matter what type of situation, tell the truth.
Do you agree with this?
No!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mercaz1 on January 05, 2012, 10:08:18 AM
absolutely not

Kant was obviously never married

would any guy every tell the truth to his wife if she asked if she looked bad in a dress
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 05, 2012, 10:32:00 AM
absolutely not

Kant was obviously never married

would any guy every tell the truth to his wife if she asked if she looked bad in a dress

That is funny, bc, according to several sources, he wasn't married.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2012, 12:30:40 PM
would any guy every tell the truth to his wife if she asked if she looked bad in a dress
Color me odd, but I'll tell my wife "maybe the other dress" or if I didn't care for dinner.  Better than eating the same dinner every week for the rest of my life pretending to like it!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 05, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
Color me odd, but I'll tell my wife "maybe the other dress" or if I didn't care for dinner.  Better than eating the same dinner every week for the rest of my life pretending to like it!

+1

but how about once you're already at the wedding and she asks?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: JEWDA on January 05, 2012, 12:32:20 PM
Color me odd, but I'll tell my wife "maybe the other dress" or if I didn't care for dinner.  Better than eating the same dinner every week for the rest of my life pretending to like it!
+100
My wife tells me to be blunt!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 05, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
Color me odd, but I'll tell my wife "maybe the other dress" or if I didn't care for dinner.  Better than eating the same dinner every week for the rest of my life pretending to like it!

It makes total sense. In fact, my wife encourages me to to tell her if I didn't like something because as she says (as you do), "it's better than me making it over and over again if you don't like it." Even still it's hard for me to say "I didn't like it." To me its a touchy situation. Thankfully it's only happened once :P (and even then I used the below advice:)

But I think you're right. Don't ever say something negative, always suggest a better alternative like "I think I like the other dress better" or "this chicken is good, but I think I liked the chicken you made last week a tad better."

Sorry to be cliche, but I've found "a happy wife is a happy life" more true than not :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smurf on January 05, 2012, 12:44:41 PM
It makes total sense. In fact, my wife encourages me to to tell her if I didn't like something because as she says (as you do), "it's better than me making it over and over again if you don't like it." Even still it's hard for me to say "I didn't like it." To me its a touchy situation. Thankfully it's only happened once :P (and even then I used the below advice:)

But I think you're right. Don't ever say something negative, always suggest a better alternative like "I think I like the other dress better" or "this chicken is good, but I think I liked the chicken you made last week a tad better."

Sorry to be cliche, but I've found "a happy wife is a happy life" more true than not :P
Or you could say " I love it but please never make it again"
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: boruch on January 05, 2012, 12:45:26 PM
Quote

Sorry to be cliche, but I've found "a happy wife is a happy life" more true than not :P

+1000
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: JEWDA on January 05, 2012, 12:46:36 PM
Or you could say " I love it but please never make it again"
No thats not a good one.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on January 05, 2012, 01:40:46 PM
Threads going OT. Should be moved to the "Trick it / negotiate it" thread  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ez1985 on January 05, 2012, 01:48:11 PM
It does not matter how blunt she wants you to be.  If you say that you don't like something or that she doesn't look good in something then she will be insulted.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2012, 01:49:06 PM
It does not matter how blunt she wants you to be.  If you say that you don't like something or that she doesn't look good in something then she will be insulted.
YWMV
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on January 05, 2012, 01:51:01 PM
It does not matter how blunt she wants you to be.  If you say that you don't like something or that she doesn't look good in something then she will be insulted.
+1
I will never completely understand woman's logic.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 05, 2012, 01:54:23 PM
It does not matter how blunt she wants you to be.  If you say that you don't like something or that she doesn't look good in something then she will be insulted.

...so at least someone on here is going to be eating that [insert poor tasting food here] for...

ever :P

I will never completely understand woman's logic.

Women's logic = oxymoron.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-stephenhawking-women-idUSTRE8040YL20120105
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Steven on January 05, 2012, 03:06:05 PM
YWMV
+1 :)
(dont know if ppl saw that)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on January 05, 2012, 03:09:15 PM
absolutely not

Kant was obviously never married

would any guy every tell the truth to his wife if she asked if she looked bad in a dress

There are various ways of telling the truth. Plus just because you are only going to tell the truth does not mean you have to say EVERYTHING you think/feel etc. There are different degrees and ways of always being truthful.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mercaz1 on January 05, 2012, 03:11:02 PM
agreed that you can suggest to your wife "maybe the other dress" or "i liked the other chicken better" but you would never be blunt to the point of replying that "yes honey that dress does make you look fat" unless you want to sleep in the cold for a long long time
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2012, 03:40:58 PM
One thing you should never say to your wife. If she says ďhoney look I lost 5 poundsĒ do not reply ďturn around and you will find itĒ.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yare on January 05, 2012, 03:54:14 PM
Threads going OT. Should be moved to the "Trick it / negotiate it" thread  ;D
lol   that is definitely the name of the game
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: twentie4hrs on January 05, 2012, 04:49:49 PM
+1 :)
(dont know if ppl saw that)

we saw it steven...we saw it
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on January 08, 2012, 04:56:48 PM
FWIR, in Yiddishkeit there is a great value to saying the truth, but it is not an absolute, overriding value. Midvar Sheker Tirchak is a pasuk. It doesn't say Do Not Lie (actually it does in another pasuk) so we know that Meshanim mipnei Hashalom.

What is the opinion of our great comrades here about opening a new card just for the bonuses if you know for sure you will cancel it right away? For example, I try to open a card only if I think that it may be worthwhile to keep.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Cbs on January 08, 2012, 05:06:21 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-stephenhawking-women-idUSTRE8040YL20120105
is stephen hawkings jewish by chance?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Steven on January 08, 2012, 05:42:31 PM
FWIR, in Yiddishkeit there is a great value to saying the truth, but it is not an absolute, overriding value. Midvar Sheker Tirchak is a pasuk. It doesn't say Do Not Lie (actually it does in another pasuk) so we know that Meshanim mipnei Hashalom.

What is the opinion of our great comrades here about opening a new card just for the bonuses if you know for sure you will cancel it right away? For example, I try to open a card only if I think that it may be worthwhile to keep.
where does it say anywhere you have to keep the card for a certain amount of time? Its the cc companies decision to give the bonus and in hope you will keep the card because of its benefits (I actually asked a rov of mine, and he told me its absolutely ok)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 05:57:17 PM
where does it say anywhere . . .

So because it doesn't say it explicitly in the TOS and T&C, it's OK?

What about buying, say, a digital camera from Target for use on an upcoming weekend vacation with the full intention of returning it afterwards. You think that's ethical? Because it doesn't explicitly proscribe that action in Target's return policy?

Do you think Target would have no problem with such  a course of action if you asked them?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 05:58:27 PM
So because it doesn't say it explicitly in the TOS and T&C, it's OK?

What about buying, say, a digital camera from Target for use on an upcoming weekend vacation with the full intention of returning it afterwards. You think that's ethical? Because it doesn't explicitly proscribe that action in Target's return policy?

Do you think Target would have no problem with such  a course of action if you asked them?

I also specifically asked basically the same scenario and was told it's okay. But as always don't rely on this form and ask your own LOR. Personally I think if you ask the salesperson in target they would say go right ahead
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:00:42 PM
I also specifically asked basically the same scenario and was told it's okay.

Are we talking ethics or halacha?

Personally I think if you ask the salesperson in target they would say go right ahead

Salesperson? First, for reasons mentioned on here before, the fact that he would have no problem with it should be obvious (salespeople work on commission, they just want to get the sale done). Second, the fact that a salesperson OKs it is irrelevant. A salesperson does not have the authority to speak for Target management.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:11:12 PM
Are we talking ethics or halacha?


Is there a difference (besides there being 2 threads)? what do you base your ethics on?

I realize sometimes there is a difference between me'iker hadin (the letter of the law in case HelpMe is reading  ;) ) and Lifnim (beyond what's required) but usually your da'as torah will inform you what the proper thing to do is when they are asked
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:16:18 PM
Is there a difference (besides there being 2 threads)? what do you base your ethics on?

I realize sometimes there is a difference between me'iker hadin (the letter of the law in case HelpMe is reading  ;) ) and Lifnim (beyond what's required) but usually your da'as torah will inform you what the proper thing to do is when they are asked

Halacha is halacha is halacha. I'm not disputing that. But there are times when one's moral compass could (and I'd argue should) be shifting to the unethical side even despite it being halachically OK.

I'd suggest buying a camera with the sole intention of using it for three days while on vacation and then returning when the vacation is over to be one of those instances.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 08, 2012, 06:16:39 PM
I realize sometimes there is a difference between me'iker hadin (the letter of the law in case HelpMe is reading   ;) ) and Lifnim (beyond what's required) but usually your da'as torah will inform you what the proper thing to do is when they are asked
Not that is what I call consideration for other members. TY!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:22:25 PM
Halacha is halacha is halacha. I'm not disputing that. But there are times when one's moral compass could (and I'd argue should) be shifting to the unethical side even despite it being halachically OK.

I'd suggest buying a camera with the sole intention of using it for three days while on vacation and then returning when the vacation is over to be one of those instances.

Has it ever happened to you (or someone you know) that you got something with the sole intention of returning it and then for whatever reason (liked the item, forgot to return it, it got a little ruined) ended up keeping it? Or how about once you were going to the target "gmach" to "borrow" a camera you bought the rest of your trip supplies from there? Also when you do return the item what does target do with it? Maybe you actually should call target executive offices to find out what their feeling on the matter is
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
Maybe you actually should call target executive offices to find out what their feeling on the matter is

I'm pretty confident I know what their feelings are.

What if YOU owned an electronics store? What would you think?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on January 08, 2012, 06:27:55 PM
So because it doesn't say it explicitly in the TOS and T&C, it's OK?

What about buying, say, a digital camera from Target for use on an upcoming weekend vacation with the full intention of returning it afterwards. You think that's ethical? Because it doesn't explicitly proscribe that action in Target's return policy?

Do you think Target would have no problem with such  a course of action if you asked them?

I'm no rabbi , just my 2 cents ---  don't you think the fact that AMEX gives 60 days to cancel/("think about it") before charging the fee says something? 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:28:20 PM
I'm pretty confident I know what their feelings are.

What if YOU owned an electronics store? What would you think?

When I own a chain the size of target I'll be sure to let you know  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2012, 06:32:09 PM
I'm pretty confident I know what their feelings are.

What if YOU owned an electronics store? What would you think?
Why don't you call AMEX Return protection and let us know what they say when you ask if you can buy a GPS a return it to them in 2 months when you're done with your summer vacation after the store won't take it back any more?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:32:40 PM
When I own a chain the size of target I'll be sure to let you know  :P

Why jump to that size? What about if you owned an electronics store on Avenue J in Brooklyn?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:33:53 PM
Why don't you call AMEX Return protection and let us know what they say when you ask if you can buy a GPS a return it to them in 2 months when you're done with your summer vacation after the store won't take it back any more?

Oh but that's not good enough. You have to get in touch with the CEO of AMEX and ask.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:34:41 PM
Why jump to that size? What about if you owned an electronics store on Avenue J in Brooklyn?

Did you ever notice how most of the small mom and pop shops don't have such liberal return policies?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 08, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
Why don't you call AMEX Return protection and let us know what they say when you ask if you can buy a GPS a return it to them in 2 months when you're done with your summer vacation after the store won't take it back any more?
They will say no problem.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:35:12 PM
I'm no rabbi , just my 2 cents ---  don't you think the fact that AMEX gives 60 days to cancel/("think about it") before charging the fee says something?

I do. But I don't think AmEx management appreciates people who sign up solely for the bonus and then cancel.

Proof? How many CC companies do you know who just can't get enough of churners?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:38:17 PM
Did you ever notice how most of the small mom and pop shops don't have such liberal return policies?

I wonder why that is...

The fact remains, just because it isn't written in the return policy does not mean they encourage the "renting" of their merchandise.

I have to say I'm somewhat surprised. Do you actually believe that Target would condone such a practice or is this just an argument l'shma?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:45:16 PM
I wonder why that is...

The fact remains, just because it isn't written in the return policy does not mean they encourage the "renting" of their merchandise.

I have to say I'm somewhat surprised. Do you actually believe that Target would condone such a practice or is this just an argument l'shma?

I think that I don't know a lot that goes on in such a store so I'm offering ideas why they might not be against it. Do you know that they are not interested in any of the reasons mentioned or just straight up for the PR ?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:50:11 PM
I think that I don't know a lot that goes on in such a store so I'm offering ideas why they might not be against it. Do you know that they are not interested in any of the reasons mentioned or just straight up for the PR ?

If you're asking if I am an executive at Target, the answer is no, I am not.

If you're asking me if I think Target management would have an issue with people buying things with the express intention of returning them a few days later, why yes, yes I am.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:52:08 PM
If you're asking if I am an executive at Target, the answer is no, I am not.

If you're asking me if I think Target management would have an issue with people buying things with the express intention of returning them a few days later, why yes, yes I am.

Great. So now both sides have been thoroughly discussed
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2012, 06:56:42 PM
So just to be clear. You don't find the practice of "renting" to be unethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 06:58:03 PM
So just to be clear. You don't find the practice of "renting" to be unethical?

I asked and was told that it's okay so no, I don't think it is.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Q274 on January 08, 2012, 07:19:45 PM
Just for a start, something that has been bothering me for a while.
Is it ethical to use your 'hatzolah/shmirah/ chaveirim/etc. Parking permit to park on a handicap spot when you are not on a call/emergency (but just plain lazy)?!
This really bothers me when I see it happening in (Jewish) shopping areas.
1) the parking permit is not for when you are on a call, You dont need one when you are on a call even if you dont have one when you are actually on a call you can park where you want/need

2) now that that has been said, the purpose for the permits is so that the car can be near by if G-D forbid there actually is an emergency and the member needs to leave asap-  let me ask you: If let us say you were in that jewish shopping area and you were having G-D forbid a stroke or chest pains would you want this member to be running around the lot looking for his car?????????

3) i for sure find it un ethical to jump to conclusions just because that is what you would have done if you were in that situation.


DISCLAIMER: i am not saying that these members are not lazy but i am saying 1) they have a legit excuse this time   2) dont make assumptions


Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Q274 on January 08, 2012, 07:20:50 PM
I asked and was told that it's okay so no, I don't think it is.

You asked about cards or about renting an item from a store? Because i hear a huge difference- just saying
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on January 08, 2012, 07:26:02 PM
You asked about cards or about renting an item from a store? Because i hear a huge difference- just saying

borrowing but again I want to stress not to rely on me and to ask your own posek
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Q274 on January 08, 2012, 07:30:25 PM
borrowing but again I want to stress not to rely on me and to ask your own posek
trust me i am not- i have been trained not to- especially when it comes to halacha and judaism- and for sure for sure hashkafa.

Thanks
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on January 09, 2012, 08:18:38 AM
I asked and was told that it's okay so no, I don't think it is.

Good, at the end of the day, everyone should ask a posek. What we are discussing here is if it is ethical. That means if it is a kiyum of the pasuk "Veasisa hayashar vehatov" not just avoiding an issur of "Lo sigzol". We have Halacha, Shuras HaDin, and we have lifnim mishuras hadin.

Another salient issue here, as was mentioned, is the potential for Kidush Hashem or ChvSh Chillul Hashem. Every Frum Yid must always bear in mind the possible outcome of publicity of his dealings. For me, an incident in C-Town a few years ago really had a big impression on me. (Dan, you heard about this?) I was planning on investing with some people there. They had a good business plan and lawyers went over the contracts and said it was sound. In the end, the gov. went after them and filed a big indictment against them. After reading through the entire thing and being aware of the setup, the idea I got was that they did nothing illegal, or barely nothing, for sure nothing significant. They built up a whole case against them painting the whole business as a scam. B'kitzur, anything we do can be later distorted so we should try to be as clean as possible and not get seduced by short term gain with possible risk in the long term.

We have a responsibility to the Klal.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Cbs on January 09, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-stephenhawking-women-idUSTRE8040YL20120105

is stephen hawkings jewish by chance?
BUMP
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on January 10, 2012, 08:07:13 AM
BUMP

It seems he is not Jewish. He is too smart for himself, can not see the obvious.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Cbs on January 10, 2012, 01:40:13 PM
It seems he is not Jewish. He is too smart for himself, can not see the obvious.
because i thought i heard a story from a guy and he was talking about him - forusre had his disease - and the guy in the story was jewish. i just dont want to say it if its not him
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aussiebochur on January 12, 2012, 05:43:27 PM
Been quiet for some time and before the other threads starts, thought I'd post here.

As posted here  (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12963), if you're a non profit organization you can get a free Keurig.

Now, apparently you don't really have to be in order to order it.

So is there anything wrong with anyone getting one?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AsherO on January 13, 2012, 03:08:14 AM
So is there anything wrong with anyone getting one?

On what grounds do you consider yourself eligible? Or are you saying that if they don't check they don't really care?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on January 13, 2012, 01:05:27 PM
Been quiet for some time and before the other threads starts, thought I'd post here.

As posted here  (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12963), if you're a non profit organization you can get a free Keurig.

Now, apparently you don't really have to be in order to order it.

So is there anything wrong with anyone getting one?
who doesnt run a non profit
Title: Infant turning 2 before return flight
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 12:30:02 PM
I can only assume you are taking an International flight....because for Domestic, you don't need ID for the child....and his/her birthday is only known to you....
Ethical? Stealing?
Title: Re: Infant turning 2 before return flight
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 12:34:31 PM
Ethical? Stealing?

Wrong forum for that!  US Mint, 3BM, Venmo, etc., etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: Infant turning 2 before return flight
Post by: Ergel on March 01, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
Wrong forum for that!  US Mint, 3BM, Venmo, etc., etc., etc., etc.
I hope you don't really believe that it's ok to steal. I doubt anyone on the forums would be ok with that
Title: Re: Infant turning 2 before return flight
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
I hope you don't really believe that it's ok to steal. I doubt anyone ok the forums would be ok with that

And when your child turns 12, I'm sure you pay the adult admission at the Zoo on Chol Ha'moed when Child admission is "Under 12" and adult admission is "12 and over"

Just pointing out the hypocrisy that this may be the wrong forum to ask a question as to whether something is 100% "ethical"
Title: Re: Re: Infant turning 2 before return flight
Post by: Ergel on March 01, 2012, 12:50:07 PM
And when your child turns 12, I'm sure you pay the adult admission at the Zoo on Chol Ha'moed when Child admission is "Under 12" and adult admission is "12 and over"
I actually do and am offended at the suggestion that I don't
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on March 01, 2012, 12:51:40 PM
Wouldn't this fall under "ze nehene vze lo chosser"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 12:53:08 PM
I actually do and am offended at the suggestion that I don't

As I don't know you at all, you really shouldn't get offended.  I would just venture to guess that a disproportionate % of the participants on this forum would err on the side of paying the child rate -- at least while it is reasonably close to the cut-off birthday.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 12:56:02 PM
As I don't know you at all, you really shouldn't get offended.  I would just venture to guess that a disproportionate % of the participants on this forum would err on the side of paying the child rate -- at least while is reasonably close to the cut-off birthday.
Not at that stage yet, but does it also depend if your child is within ear shot?  Would you be throwing away a $200,000 private school education by lying in front of them for a $5 discount?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 01:04:40 PM
Not at that stage yet, but does it also depend if your child is within ear shot?  Would you be throwing away a $200,000 private school education by lying in front of them for a $5 discount?

Absolutely...it's something I say to friends all the time.  We spend almost $20K per year per child on Yeshiva tuition (I know, I live in a high-rent district) to teach them morals, midot, among other things (Torah, etc.) -- and then there are those that throw all the moral lessons out the door when they tell their kids "If anyone asks, tell them you are 11"

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 01, 2012, 01:11:59 PM
Wouldn't this fall under "ze nehene vze lo chosser"?

+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on March 01, 2012, 02:02:55 PM
Wouldn't this fall under "ze nehene vze lo chosser"?

which exactly are you referring to?
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:17:35 PM
And when your child turns 12, I'm sure you pay the adult admission at the Zoo on Chol Ha'moed when Child admission is "Under 12" and adult admission is "12 and over"

Just pointing out the hypocrisy that this may be the wrong forum to ask a question as to whether something is 100% "ethical"
Its not unethical. It's stealing I think

And 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Someone told me a nice vort.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on March 01, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
which exactly are you referring to?
Lying to he airline about the age.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 02:20:10 PM
Someone told me a nice vort.

We spend $10,000 on tuition and throw it out the window for a $10 discount for child fare (when we teach them that all they learn is BS)
Seems we haven't fixed the Echo bug on DDF.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:22:26 PM
which exactly are you referring to?
To this: 

As I don't know you at all, you really shouldn't get offended.  I would just venture to guess that a disproportionate % of the participants on this forum would err on the side of paying the child rate -- at least while it is reasonably close to the cut-off birthday.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:23:43 PM
Seems we haven't fixed the Echo bug on DDF.

We have ;)

Your just as quick as asherO ;)

I just saw someone's response and didn't read the whole thread. Once I did I edited it... But alas...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 02:24:08 PM

And 2 wrongs don't make a right.


But two Wrights make an airplane ;)

Sorry...Couldn't resist
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
Not at that stage yet, but does it also depend if your child is within ear shot? 

I think not. It's about a mindset.
Besides one can only hide or pretend for so long. At the end of the day everything comes out :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 02:25:28 PM
We have ;)

Your just as quick as asherO ;)

I just saw someone's response and didn't read the whole thread. Once I did I edited it... But alas...

$10,000 tuition...I need to move to your neighborhood :)
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
But two Wrights make an airplane ;)

Sorry...Couldn't resist
I wanted to write that but felt it belongs on the best comment thread ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 01, 2012, 02:29:20 PM
Lying to he airline about the age.

Oh, I was talking about getting the child rate for the zoo... Either way, I think its almost the same situation.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:30:21 PM
$10,000 tuition...I need to move to your neighborhood :)
Yearly.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
$10,000 tuition...I need to move to your neighborhood :)
It's less than that in CLE, and that's besides for housing at a third of the NY price.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 02:32:49 PM
It's less than that in CLE, and that's besides for housing at a third of the NY price.

Tuition 1/3, housing 1/3...(and we don't mean 1/3 off, either)

Hmm....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 02:34:27 PM
Tuition 1/3, housing 1/3...(and we don't mean 1/3 off, either)

Hmm....
And violent crime in Beachwood vs. Brooklyn probably 1/100,000.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on March 01, 2012, 02:35:59 PM
Oh, I was talking about getting the child rate for the zoo... Either way, I think its almost the same situation.

I don't think that really applies in these cases of business
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
And violent crime in Beachwood vs. Brooklyn probably 1/100,000.

I'm not in Brooklyn...and you couldn't pay me to live there....but there may be schools there with tuition that rival yours (Williamsburgh in particular)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 02:39:38 PM
but there may be schools there with tuition that rival yours (Williamsburgh in particular)
Crown heights as well, as OT charges over $20K for out of towners in beis medresh to subsidize the rest of the operation.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 02:44:12 PM
Crown heights as well, as OT charges over $20K for out of towners in beis medresh to subsidize the rest of the operation.


You're always welcome to be an intowner :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 02:49:16 PM

You're always welcome to be an intowner :)
I'm not in Brooklyn...and you couldn't pay me to live there
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 02:49:36 PM
Crown heights as well, as OT charges over $20K for out of towners in beis medresh to subsidize the rest of the operation.

Speaking of Williamsburgh, someone there told me a few weeks ago that he pays $7,000 in tuition per year, COMBINED, for his seven kids in the Satmar Yeshiva
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on March 01, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
Oh, I was talking about getting the child rate for the zoo... Either way, I think its almost the same situation.
I can hear a bit more why there would be chusser at an amusement park that's in essence there for kids..but your right it still may be the same thing
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 01, 2012, 03:04:26 PM
Tuition 1/3, housing 1/3...(and we don't mean 1/3 off, either)

Hmm....
Don't forget free zoo every Monday! :) just trying to stay o(n)t ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: David B on March 01, 2012, 03:14:04 PM
Don't forget free zoo every Monday! :) just trying to stay o(n)t ;)

Think we have free zoo every Wednesday (Bronx Zoo)...:)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 01, 2012, 03:25:59 PM
Think we have free zoo every Wednesday (Bronx Zoo)...:)
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimaron on March 01, 2012, 04:05:46 PM
but dan you also get the cleveland life
basically you get what you pay
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 01, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
but dan you also get the cleveland life
basically you get what you pay
And I thank g-d for it every day.  Especially every time I come back from pretty much anywhere else.
#ClevelandRocks
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Daniel on March 19, 2012, 05:34:55 PM
Not at that stage yet, but does it also depend if your child is within ear shot?  Would you be throwing away a $200,000 private school education by lying in front of them for a $5 discount?

You may not be at the stage yet, but you will learn that within earshot or not doesn't/shouldn't matter. Kids know if their parents are eirlech or not. They have 6th sense.  It's something HKB"H built into the briah. When it comes to kids, you usually get out what you put in, in terms of your self conduct.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 06:06:00 PM
New question...bought a guitar at guitar center. As I was being ringed up the guy offered me a warranty package. I told him that I will be out of the country studying and would the warranty cover me.

He said that if there is no local authorized repair shop for Taylor - the guitar company, Guitar Center will just mail me a check for the cost of the guitar! I said sounds good and bought the package for about $50. Lo and behold, I was traveling and a small crack appeared in the guitar despite buying the case that the same sales guy said no one ever reported having an issue with on a plane...

I called and of course found out that there are no authorized Taylor repair shops in Israel and so they said they would mail a check. Months went by and nothing came so I called and the address had been written down incorrectly so I gave them a new address in Canada. Months went by again and nothing came. (In the meantime I had paid $90 to fix it myself.)

Finally after about 6 months I had enough and called the store and spoke to the manager - which at GC is always a good idea as their CS is pretty good. He took the details and put me in touch with corporate who agreed to finally mail me a new gift card (CORP told me that they don't send cash checks and that the CSR was mistaken...) to my US address and it came shortly thereafter...

A month later...the original gift card (not a check) came to Canada (very slow mail delivery) leaving me with two gift cards....I don't feel it's right to keep both and most likely will go into the store where I bought the guitar and thank the manager for his help and tell him about the discrepancy. At the very least it will hopefully make a kiddush hashem...

Question for DDF, is this the correct decision? Would you do the same?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 19, 2012, 06:13:10 PM
New question...bought a guitar at guitar center. As I was being ringed up the guy offered me a warranty package. I told him that I will be out of the country studying and would the warranty cover me.

He said that if there is no local authorized repair shop for Taylor - the guitar company, Guitar Center will just mail me a check for the cost of the guitar! I said sounds good and bought the package for about $50. Lo and behold, I was traveling and a small crack appeared in the guitar despite buying the case that the same sales guy said no one ever reported having an issue with on a plane...

I called and of course found out that there are no authorized Taylor repair shops in Israel and so they said they would mail a check. Months went by and nothing came so I called and the address had been written down incorrectly so I gave them a new address in Canada. Months went by again and nothing came. (In the meantime I had paid $90 to fix it myself.)

Finally after about 6 months I had enough and called the store and spoke to the manager - which at GC is always a good idea as their CS is pretty good. He took the details and put me in touch with corporate who agreed to finally mail me a new gift card (CORP told me that they don't send cash checks and that the CSR was mistaken...) to my US address and it came shortly thereafter...

A month later...the original gift card (not a check) came to Canada (very slow mail delivery) leaving me with two gift cards....I don't feel it's right to keep both and most likely will go into the store where I bought the guitar and thank the manager for his help and tell him about the discrepancy. At the very least it will hopefully make a kiddush hashem...

Question for DDF, is this the correct decision? Would you do the same?
+1. I except I wouldn't go out of my to return it to the store, would just not use it.
However, if it is a privately owned goyish company I would definitely use it as it is טעות עכום. There are many easier ways if I was looking to specifically make a kiddush hashem
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 19, 2012, 06:24:25 PM
I cant tell you what you should do, but if you return it I'm very impressed of you. But as PG said, its most likely taauth aakum.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 19, 2012, 06:39:34 PM
I would ask corporate what I should do. I think most major companies wouldn't care about 1gc and they would tell you to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: easy48 on March 19, 2012, 06:49:47 PM
Taus akkum.  IMHO- Its yours to keep.  (not really my own opinion..I had a similar shaila asked my Rov and that was the psak.)

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 06:51:12 PM
I would ask corporate what I should do. I think most major companies wouldn't care about 1gc and they would tell you to enjoy it.

Good idea...I'll try and post the results...

Also, it seems that GC is owned by Bain Capital...I guess I'll ask Mitt Romney next time I see him...:)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 07:04:20 PM
Well...corp CS seems to be out for lunch but I got through to the regular CS and they said that I should just 'dispose' of it...I asked how do I know which one...they said the one that came later was 'deactivated'...how can I tell online which it is?

"You have to make a purchase." Me: ???...What about in store?

GC: Maybe they have a way....

Sounds all a bit odd...any advice?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 19, 2012, 07:06:36 PM
http://www.guitarcenter.com/utility/balancecheck.aspx
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 07:16:35 PM
http://www.guitarcenter.com/utility/balancecheck.aspx

Thanks! Amazing how both a CSR and the CSR at Corp HQ didn't have access to that! She was quite surprised and happy to hear that someone would actually call. She said she'll call back and hopefully just say to keep them....though I'm going to check the balances now.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 07:20:48 PM
HelpMe - the link doesn't seem to be working...I put the info but it says 'sorry error'....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 19, 2012, 07:29:39 PM
Is there a number to call on the back of the card to check the balance? Hopefully they didnít deactivate both cards.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 19, 2012, 07:33:32 PM
Is there a number to call on the back of the card to check the balance? Hopefully they didnít deactivate both cards.

I called and they are both loaded....we'll wait and see what Corp calls back and says...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on March 19, 2012, 08:38:46 PM
Don't forget free zoo every Monday!
Think we have free zoo every Wednesday (Bronx Zoo)...:)
Meh, we have a free zoo every day (Crown Heights)  :):)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 19, 2012, 09:42:21 PM
Meh, we have a free zoo every day (Crown Heights)  :):)
lol. Did something specific happen?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on March 20, 2012, 12:30:32 AM
lol. Did something specific happen?
nope just the usual :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: peroneustertius on March 20, 2012, 12:41:32 PM
Is it ethical to buy more than one of the 1/2 price Amazon gift cards when Amazon specifically says 1 per household?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on March 20, 2012, 01:20:25 PM
Is it ethical to buy more than one of the 1/2 price Amazon gift cards when Amazon specifically says 1 per household?
I would think not. Better question is, is it stealing
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on March 20, 2012, 02:51:10 PM
Is it ethical to buy more than one of the 1/2 price Amazon gift cards when Amazon specifically says 1 per household?

1 per household? I didn't even see that.  Whoops. I thought it was one per Amazon account.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 03:18:53 PM
I would think not. Better question is, is it stealing
I better question is why someone would continue to be a member of a forum that routinely engages in unethical behavior.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smurf on March 20, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
I better question is why someone would continue to be a member of a forum that routinely engages in unethical behavior.
So I take it then with your continued participation in this forum that  you agree that what goes on here is ethical.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on March 20, 2012, 04:08:41 PM
So I take it then with your continued participation in this forum that  you agree that what goes on here is ethical.

Good point!!  ;D

I better question is why someone would continue to be a member of a forum that routinely engages in unethical behavior.

Do you mean the forum engages in behavior that is unethical?  ??? or do you mean that some people on the forum seem to engage in such behavior?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 04:21:05 PM
So I take it then with your continued participation in this forum that  you agree that what goes on here is ethical.
Letís not make this about DDF because the haters will just chime in and accuse me of bad mouthing DDF. Most of the deals at FW/FT/SD have an unethical aspect to them by someoneís standards. Most deals are one per household. Many believe that violating this is unethical. Not sure how one justifies this in their own mind. Many CC bonuses state for first time customers only but we apply anyway. I could go on but I think you get the point.   
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 20, 2012, 04:29:44 PM
... which is just a long-winded way of saying he believes "what goes on here" to be ethical.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 04:31:05 PM
Do you mean the forum engages in behavior that is unethical?  ??? or do you mean that some people on the forum seem to engage in such behavior?
Most if not all forums that I know of work off the unwritten rule that if it is legal it is OK to post. I do not know of any forum that has this same unwritten rule in regards to if a deal is ethical.   
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 20, 2012, 04:32:01 PM
You are right that its not ethical to churn etc. But you seem to be seeking extra trouble here. Why do you have to slam the "forum" when you wanna make a point? Just say polity or jokingly that "well, this is what were all doing here, its part of life that we're not so ethical when we confront a big signup bonus" etc. Why do you always seek to be provocative and bash the forum itself, and always comparing it to others? That'd not the point (I believe) you really wanna make.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 05:01:58 PM
Why do you always seek to be provocative and bash the forum itself, and always comparing it to others?
Do you want to see what bashing a forum looks like so you will know the difference (rhetorical question)?

When I answer some of your questions from information I learned from other forums is that OK (real question)?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smurf on March 20, 2012, 06:17:05 PM
When I answer some of your questions from information I learned from other forums is that OK (real question)?

I's OK assuming you actually answer the question and not just rephrase it with vague hints
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 06:29:50 PM
I's OK assuming you actually answer the question and not just rephrase it with vague hints
FYI: According to AsherO you should have not responded to my question because it was not directed at you.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 20, 2012, 06:44:38 PM
I appoint smurf as a joint account holder of my post.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 20, 2012, 06:46:47 PM
I appoint smurf as a joint account holder of my question.
I asked the question not you so you have no standing in this matter.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on March 21, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
+1. I except I wouldn't go out of my to return it to the store, would just not use it.
However, if it is a privately owned goyish company I would definitely use it as it is טעות עכום. There are many easier ways if I was looking to specifically make a kiddush hashem

It makes a difference if a Jew or Goy owns the company?
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I dont speak or read hebrew so I dont know what טעות עכום means.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 21, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
It makes a difference if a Jew or Goy owns the company?
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I dont speak or read hebrew so I dont know what טעות עכום means.

= Mistake by a Goy.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on March 21, 2012, 01:47:59 PM
= Mistake by a Goy.

You are correct. Wanna explain?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 21, 2012, 01:52:08 PM
You are correct. Wanna explain?

I'm ain't no Rabbi, but the gist of it is that if a Goy makes a (commercial) mistake (e.g. gives you $10 change instead of $5), you would not be obligated to correct him and/or return the money, though often times one can make a big kiddush Hashem for doing so.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ChAiM'l on March 21, 2012, 02:00:25 PM
though often times one can make a big kiddush Hashem for doing so.

30 Yrs Old
Male
Born, raised and live in the "dirty Jerz" aka New Jersey
Catholic
Married
2 sons

You may want to elaborate on that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 21, 2012, 02:02:07 PM
You may want to elaborate on that.

Oops. My bad  :-[

Good catch.

Try here  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush_Hashem)for (sort of) an explanation.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ChAiM'l on March 21, 2012, 02:05:06 PM
Oops. My bad  :-[

Good catch.

I can't blame you. You see Lakewood NJ, and assume...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on March 21, 2012, 02:16:43 PM
Oops. My bad  :-[

Good catch.

Try here  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush_Hashem)for (sort of) an explanation.

Very interesting, thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised in the answer, I would think being honest is obligatory regardless of what type of person made the mistake.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
I'm surprised in the answer, I would think being honest is obligatory regardless of what type of person made the mistake.
I was to when I first joined this forum.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 02:46:16 PM
It's definitely a good deed and a proper thing to do, but it's not required according to the letter of law.  Judaism applauds those that do things above the letter of the law, but it's not a requirement.

Does Christianity require you to return to WalMart in case of an honest pricing mistake or receiving too much change by accident?  You would probably consider it good Karma if you did so, but I doubt that anyone would tell you that you will burn in hell according to the letter of the law if you do not.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 02:49:58 PM
Does Christianity require you to return to WalMart in case of an honest pricing mistake or receiving too much change by accident? 
YES!!!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 21, 2012, 02:51:00 PM
@HelpMe source?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 02:51:30 PM
YES!!!
Well then I learned something.
So say if Amazon.com has a pricing error you wouldn't take advantage of it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 02:58:05 PM
Well then I learned something.
So say if Amazon.com has a pricing error you wouldn't take advantage of it?
I will answer your question but do we really want to go down this road?

I most likely would take advantage of it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 21, 2012, 03:00:29 PM
Isn't it based on what your minister/priest tells you? AFAIK the only book of set laws in Christianity is in Catholicism the code of canon law, as to the inner workings of the church. Nothing like the shulchan aruch...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 03:01:04 PM
So to be clear, your beef/surprise is that Judaism doesn't require you to correct a store's mistakes, but personally you would take advantage of said mistakes?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 03:29:40 PM
So to be clear, your beef/surprise is that Judaism doesn't require you to correct a store's mistakes, but personally you would take advantage of said mistakes?
Let me make this clear. I have no beef with any main stream religion that I know of. I believe any main stream religion is a plus in a personís life.

I was surprise that Judaism treats certain things differently depending if the merchant is Jewish or not. Is this a belief, law or do I just have it wrong?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 21, 2012, 03:39:17 PM
Its law.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 03:42:41 PM
You can't steal from anyone, obviously.  And you must return an item to anyone that you find if you can discern who it belongs to.

Regarding an honest mistake Judaism does indeed differentiate between jew and gentile.  It's highly encouraged to sanctify G-ds name by doing the right thing and fixing the mistake in all cases, but it is not required according to the letter of the law.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 03:50:45 PM
You can't steal from anyone, obviously.  And you must return an item to anyone that you find if you can discern who it belongs to.

Regarding an honest mistake Judaism does indeed differentiate between jew and gentile.  It's highly encouraged to sanctify G-ds name by doing the right thing and fixing the mistake in all cases, but it is not required according to the letter of the law.
This is the part I am surprised at and to be honest do not understand.

Does Judaism teach that a gentile is inferior to a Jew? Is this totally false or maybe a belief held by a certain sect?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 03:53:55 PM
Does Christianity not teach that a jew is inferior to a christian and will go to hell if they don't convert? 
What else was the point of the spanish inquisition that my ancestors went through?

Does Islam not teach that non-muslims are all infidels and will all go to hell while they get 72 virgins in heaven for killing jews and christians?

Why do Mormons convert jews posthumously?

In fact Judaism is quite rare as far as religions go in not believing in the concept of going to hell just for not being jewish and in not seeking converts (in fact actively dissuading converts) to Judaism.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on March 21, 2012, 04:00:38 PM
I would just chime in and say that using the term inferior may seem harsh. Negating that I'd like to say that each religion considers themselves superior to other religions. Jews don't look down on other nations, we have a live and let live mentality.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
I would just chime in and say that using the term inferior may seem harsh. Negating that I'd like to say that each religion considers themselves superior to other religions. Jews don't look down on other nations, we have a live and let live mentality.
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 04:09:45 PM
Does Christianity not teach that a jew is inferior to a christian and will go to hell if they don't convert? 
What else was the point of the spanish inquisition that my ancestors went through?

Does Islam not teach that non-muslims are all infidels and will all go to hell while they get 72 virgins in heaven for killing jews and christians?

This is the road I was talking about. I asked the questions not to attack your religion but to understand.

I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children. I was not taught that Jews were inferior. I think Passover demonstrates that.

I hope youíre not expecting me to defend Islam. I know we disagree on many things but this is not one of them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on March 21, 2012, 04:11:23 PM
This is the part I am surprised at and to be honest do not understand.

+ 1
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 21, 2012, 04:13:04 PM
Let me make this clear. I have no beef with any main stream religion that I know of. I believe any main stream religion is a plus in a person’s life.

I was surprise that Judaism treats certain things differently depending if the merchant is Jewish or not. Is this a belief, law or do I just have it wrong?

Maybe Judaism is requiring a Jew to go out of his way, higher than any expectations for his fellow brother.
For anyone else there is no such requirement.

It's like you help your brother before a friend.

Let's say that it's not a law of Judaism saying you must return and keep high standards to JEWS rather it's saying be above the letter of the law for your BROTHER.

This thinking is logical and makes sense.
Would anyone deny they would do more for a brother than for a friend?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children.
Which is exactly what I was taught as well.
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 21, 2012, 04:28:28 PM
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.
+1
I think it would be best for me to stop here.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AsherO on March 21, 2012, 04:32:56 PM
Which is exactly what I was taught as well.
I think WhyAich has explained it better that I have.

+1 to both points.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on March 21, 2012, 05:08:24 PM
Maybe Judaism is requiring a Jew to go out of his way, higher than any expectations for his fellow brother.
For anyone else there is no such requirement.

It's like you help your brother before a friend.

Let's say that it's not a law of Judaism saying you must return and keep high standards to JEWS rather it's saying be above the letter of the law for your BROTHER.

This thinking is logical and makes sense.
Would anyone deny they would do more for a brother than for a friend?

Well said.
Simply stated though. Is handing back the incorrect change or even driving a few minutes after realizing the mistake made, really going out of the way?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on March 21, 2012, 05:49:03 PM
I want to share an explanation I heard in Los Angeles 25 years ago.

This also applies to other similar laws in Halacha - Jewish Code of Life. I will give a better example that everyone here should relate to better.

Imagine, you pull in to a First Class lounge of Qatar's Airline or the American Airline Admiral's Club. You request directions to the spa and shower area. The receptionist smiles and asks for your card. You answer "which card?" She asks if you are a club member. You respond that you are not a member of any club, you have an Amex Zync card and you want to freshen up before your flight in 3 hours.

She will politely send you away, she may direct you to where the main terminal waiting area is. "These amenities are only for members of our exclusive club. It is open to anyone but you have to pay your dues and fulfill certain requirements. You need to fly 30 times in 1 calendar year, earn status and pay the annual fee. You have to participate in helping build our airline. If you do that, we will be very happy to serve you. You can not just come for the free spa and not pay the dues etc."

If you want the basics, you have no problem. All your needs are tended to. But if you want something extra, for example a free spa treatment, you can get that too, but only if you are a club member.

The same thing with Judaism. The ethics demanded of Judaism are actually of a higher standard than other religions, even for when dealing with non-Jews. However there are special perks, benefits, which are demanded of us when dealing with each other.

It happens to be that in contrast with today's society, Jews have no benefits or rights, only responsibilities and duties. The focus is on being givers not takers. When you give, someone gets but our focus should be to give to others, not how much we are getting from them.

Was this clear?  :)
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 21, 2012, 05:50:54 PM
Well said.
Simply stated though. Is handing back the incorrect change or even driving a few minutes after realizing the mistake made, really going out of the way?

It's not going out of the way physically. It's in concept. The point here is that you're super careful. Those things you do for a brother.

And as Dan said, it's always commendable to do it for every person!
 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 22, 2012, 12:44:50 AM
After rereading parts of this thread I see I did not answer your questions.

Isn't it based on what your minister/priest tells you?
No. The Ten Commandments and the Bible will guide you.

AFAIK the only book of set laws in Christianity is in Catholicism the code of canon law, as to the inner workings of the church.
Even devote Catholics do not follow all the Canon Laws. A glaring example would be contraception.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 22, 2012, 10:57:04 AM
The Ten Commandments and the Bible will guide you.
Even devote Catholics do not follow all the Canon Laws. A glaring example would be contraception.

Neither the ten commandments nor the bible have a clear directive regarding what to do in the case being discussed. In lieu of that, man is left up to his own personal moral distinctions. The code of jewish law directs the Jewish individual towards a more centralized "code of morals." it will help a person from doing something clearly bad or evil, but it will not overburden ppl with requirements that are impossible to keep. When taken in context with what WhyAich has said, I think it becomes clear that the intention is to do more good not discriminate against others.

On a side note, the "perfidis Judaeis" was only removed around 1960 (or so) from the good friday prayer. In addition the list of popes and high ranking leaders who have referred to the Jews as 'cursed' and 'traitors' is much more extensive and offensive than any bias that I've seen in Judaism. One thing I must say though is that the current (and more recent) Catholic Churches have been much more respectful and understanding of Jews.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 22, 2012, 10:15:54 PM
I'm surprised in the answer, I would think being honest is obligatory regardless of what type of person made the mistake.
you raised a interesting point. but your question is based on a misunderstanding that you have.
if it were to say in the torah(jewish) law that when one sells you somthing by mistake if he is a jew you must return it but if he a non jew you dont have to, then you may understand it as not being fair or inferior.
but that is false the torah law does not differentiate between jew and gentile when it comes to being honest.
rather the torah defines what is a transaction (in our case between buyer and seller) one must knowingly, willingly and intend  to transfer a item from his ownership to another person, missing out on any one of the above components leaves the transaction incomplete. (as if you would write up a contract and never sign it, there is no transaction) but the torah law does not impose its laws on non jews, (unlike other religions that impose their beliefs on all ppl)  and leaves it up to the law of the land to decide what defines a transaction, in our country a transaction is based on willingly giving you item to another person.

for example Mr. A(jew) decides he want to retire and move to florida so he sells his house in nyc to Mr. B(jew) a month later Mr.A boss double his salary and therefore Mr. A decides to stay in nyc. he can go right back to his old home and throw Mr B out because evan though he knowingly and willingly sold it his intention was bc he would move and that didnt end up happening, therefore his intention was not to sell it, and the transaction is incomplete. if Mr A and Mr B were a non jew according to the law of the land the sale is complete because he knowingly and willingly sold it.
therefore it is true that if a mr a jew bought from another jew somthing and the seller didnt intend to sell it, he must return it bc the sale was incomplete due to the way the torah law defins a transaction (not an issue of being honest). but if a jew bought from a non jew he may keep it because according the the definition of the law of the land its a good transaction. that is just a fallout of a difference in how to define somthing, so yes you will find a case where the jew will get his item back as apposed the the non jew having to take a loss
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on March 22, 2012, 10:26:58 PM
Like!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 23, 2012, 12:37:22 AM
@dans fan or anyone.
How about this example.
A Jew orders 1 IPod online but instead receives 1 case (24 IPodís) by mistake. He is only charged for one and the invoice states one. What does the Torah state he must do if the merchant was Jewish and what must he do if the merchant was a non-Jew.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 23, 2012, 09:32:53 AM
How is that scenario any different from what's been stated already? I feel like you know the answer, and your question only serves to ruffle feathers.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 23, 2012, 10:15:12 AM
How is that scenario any different from what's been stated already? I feel like you know the answer, and your question only serves to ruffle feathers.
+1
I think what we brought down and explained already is enough.

R u trying to corner people into a scenario that they don't know the answer to, and then say, I got you!

Come on. The Torah is fair 100%. It was given by G-d. That's what all religions believe, no one argues, do if it was given by G-d its probably true and just. Man's intellectual abilities are not only limited but they can be distorted as well. Sometimes you might not be able to see the truth in every scenario. Take the past explanations and say, hey, that makes sense so other cases probably also do. Its given by G-d so rely on him,  If you rely on G-d that is.

If not then we have a totally different discussion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 23, 2012, 10:30:35 AM
+1
I think what we brought down and explained already is enough.

R u trying to corner people into a scenario that they don't know the answer to, and then say, I got you!

Come on. The Torah is fair 100%. It was given by G-d. That's what all religions believe, no one argues, do if it was given by G-d its probably true and just. Man's intellectual abilities are not only limited but they can be distorted as well. Sometimes you might not be able to see the truth in every scenario. Take the past explanations and say, hey, that makes sense so other cases probably also do. Its given by G-d so rely on him,  If you rely on G-d that is.

If not then we have a totally different discussion.
No need for futher discussion. Everyone have a good day!
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on March 23, 2012, 11:28:25 AM
No need for futher discussion. Everyone have a good day!

Uh... I dont mean to continue the discussion... But I hope you weren't offended.
My intent was that it's not about every single case and every 'kvetch' or hole you find in the system. It's look at the big picture, does the bible sound fare or not.

Do I make sense? Otherwise I would love to continue and answer questions :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 23, 2012, 11:51:32 AM
Uh... I dont mean to continue the discussion... But I hope you weren't offended.
My intent was that it's not about every single case and every 'kvetch' or hole you find in the system. It's look at the big picture, does the bible sound fare or not.

Do I make sense? Otherwise I would love to continue and answer questions :)
You did not offend me. The perception by many here already is that I am trying to trash Judaism. I appreciate your offer to answer more questions but I think it would only make things worse.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on March 26, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
I called Guitar Center a week ago about mistakenly getting a second GC...spoke with CS at Corp HQ...they thanked me and said they'd be in touch...never heard back...am I clear to just spend both?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 26, 2012, 10:10:43 AM
I called Guitar Center a week ago about mistakenly getting a second GC...spoke with CS at Corp HQ...they thanked me and said they'd be in touch...never heard back...am I clear to just spend both?
If you need to ask that question on a public forum you pretty much have your answer. How about just giving one of them to charity?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on March 26, 2012, 10:30:33 AM
I called Guitar Center a week ago about mistakenly getting a second GC...spoke with CS at Corp HQ...they thanked me and said they'd be in touch...never heard back...am I clear to just spend both?

(How much was it for?) I think that if you called them you should give them more time or call them back and not jump the gun.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on March 26, 2012, 01:01:13 PM
How about just giving one of them to charity?
why should he do that. if he shouldnt keep it then the charity shouldnt spend it either bec then they would be stealing. if he can keep it why should he give it to charity, it might be a nice thing to do but but i dont see why i have to give anything i "got" without earning to charity
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 26, 2012, 01:31:13 PM
why should he do that. if he shouldnt keep it then the charity shouldnt spend it either bec then they would be stealing. if he can keep it why should he give it to charity, it might be a nice thing to do but but i dont see why i have to give anything i "got" without earning to charity
It would seem the OP is not sure if it is ethical to keep it or not. Giving it to charity would seem to kill two birds with one stone. You are relieved of the ethical issue and a worthy cause gets a benefit. Of course this opinion is based on my ethical views.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2012, 01:33:34 PM
Seems more like Robin Hood ethics.
If you find extra money in your bank account can you just give it away to charity instead of trying to resolve it properly?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 26, 2012, 01:40:05 PM
Seems more like Robin Hood ethics.
If you find extra money in your bank account can you just give it away to charity instead of trying to resolve it properly?
The OP tried to resolve it.

If I find extra money in my account I would try to resolve it. If I can't resolve it then yes I would have no problem giving it to a charity.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on March 26, 2012, 01:51:02 PM
The OP tried to resolve it.

If I find extra money in my account I would try to resolve it. If I can't resolve it then yes I would have no problem giving it to a charity.
the easiest way to resolve it would be to just throw one out
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 26, 2012, 01:56:10 PM
the easiest way to resolve it would be to just throw one out
That would be the easiest way to resolve it but not necessarily the correct thing to do.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on March 26, 2012, 01:59:16 PM
That would be the easiest way to resolve it but not necessarily the correct thing to do.
true. but you will definitely not be stealing from the company. at worst you would be wasting money
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 26, 2012, 02:17:36 PM
true. but you will definitely not be stealing from the company. at worst you would be wasting money
If anyone thinks this is stealing the only right thing would be to give it back.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on March 26, 2012, 05:58:45 PM
Yup, you can not pass stolen goods on to a charity...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 26, 2012, 06:05:50 PM
I wish companies had a way you can donate money to them. I have had a few companies that I made money off of their mistakes that I would like to give back to them, but AFAIK there is no way.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shach on March 26, 2012, 07:16:16 PM
I wish companies had a way you can donate money to them. I have had a few companies that I made money off of their mistakes that I would like to give back to them, but AFAIK there is no way.
buy merchandise and return it without a return label :P use your imagination ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on March 28, 2012, 05:56:12 AM
You can buy gift cards and destroy them. You can probably call them and tell them that you want to make a payment for some old mistake. (You can send them amazon payments or paypal - just make sure that they get the cash)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on March 30, 2012, 08:53:04 AM
Setting up multiple accounts for websites like diapers.com that give a discount on first order.

Let's assume I deem this unethical. What about setting up an account for each member of the household? Is that ok?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 30, 2012, 10:07:45 AM
Setting up multiple accounts for websites like diapers.com that give a discount on first order.

Let's assume I deem this unethical. What about setting up an account for each member of the household? Is that ok?
I would say as long as they are not minors it would be OK.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Mocha on March 30, 2012, 10:34:35 AM
I would say as long as they are not minors it would be OK.
Why would minors it be able to set up accounts? I ordered things online before I was 18 albeit with parents permission.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 30, 2012, 10:41:42 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised in the answer, I would think being honest is obligatory regardless of what type of person made the mistake.

Another approach I recently heard:

The way of the world is, essentially, finders keepers, losers weepers. Jews, however, are commanded to go above and beyond for their fellow brethren.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 30, 2012, 10:50:06 AM
Why would minors it be able to set up accounts? I ordered things online before I was 18 albeit with parents permission.
I just donít set up accounts in minorís names to get around requirements.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AEK1 on March 30, 2012, 10:58:38 AM
i think the fact that this is an open public forum which ANYONE can access puts a big responsibility on you DAN to either sensor or discontinue this thread altogether as your opening yourself up to chillul hashem which is very chumoor!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 30, 2012, 11:04:46 AM
i think the fact that this is an open public forum which ANYONE can access puts a big responsibility on you DAN to either sensor or discontinue this thread altogether as your opening yourself up to chillul hashem which is very chumoor!
So Dan is responsible for the ethical behavior of all the members?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AEK1 on March 30, 2012, 11:24:57 AM
he's definetly not responsible for what others do or say BUT IS RESPONSIBLE TO MODERATE WHAT HE ALLOWS  TO BE POSTED HERE
 AND HE DOES MODERATE  comments regarding ads that are on this site when the comments are negative against the companies that are paying him for their ads (which he is entitled to do)
BUT THE SAME VIGILANCE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO ANY POST THAT IS LOSHON HARA,MOTZEE SHEM RA,RECHILUS, AND CHILLUL HASHEM
this is his site he set it up hes a frum torah jew and presumably would apply his religion to his
business interests as well
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 30, 2012, 11:26:53 AM
he's definetly not responsible for what others do or say BUT IS RESPONSIBLE TO MODERATE WHAT HE ALLOWS  TO BE POSTED HERE
 AND HE DOES MODERATE  comments regarding ads that are on this site when the comments are negative against the companies that are paying him for their ads (which he is entitled to do)
BUT THE SAME VIGILANCE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO ANY POST THAT IS LOSHON HARA,MOTZEE SHEM RA,RECHILUS, AND CHILLUL HASHEM
this is his site he set it up hes a frum torah jew and presumably would apply his religion to his
business interests as well

I'm not saying you're wrong, but one friendly piece of advice. People will probably take you more seriously if you use punctuation liberally and CAPITALS conservatively. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 30, 2012, 11:31:36 AM
he's definetly not responsible for what others do or say BUT IS RESPONSIBLE TO MODERATE WHAT HE ALLOWS  TO BE POSTED HERE
 AND HE DOES MODERATE  comments regarding ads that are on this site when the comments are negative against the companies that are paying him for their ads (which he is entitled to do)
BUT THE SAME VIGILANCE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO ANY POST THAT IS LOSHON HARA,MOTZEE SHEM RA,RECHILUS, AND CHILLUL HASHEM
this is his site he set it up hes a frum torah jew and presumably would apply his religion to his
business interests as well
Since I am not Jewish, Google got a workout on your post. I will just say you have an interesting view point and will leave it at that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AEK1 on March 30, 2012, 11:31:48 AM
 never did well in grammer :)
though point taken
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on March 30, 2012, 11:32:22 AM
never did well in grammer :)
though point taken
or spelling
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AEK1 on March 30, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
Since I am not Jewish, Google got a workout on your post. I will just say you have an interesting view point and will leave it at that.
to all who are following this thread
your first 5 words of your post validate my post .btw was google any help with deciphering my post?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on March 30, 2012, 11:36:15 AM
to all who are following this thread
your first 5 words of your post validate my post .btw was google any help with deciphering my post?
Yes.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 30, 2012, 11:38:21 AM
i think the fact that this is an open public forum which ANYONE can access puts a big responsibility on you DAN to either sensor or discontinue this thread altogether as your opening yourself up to chillul hashem which is very chumoor!
i think he should start by deleting your posts
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on March 30, 2012, 11:40:44 AM
i think he should start by deleting your posts

Nah he's in the right thread to discuss whether this thread is ethical :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on March 30, 2012, 12:02:38 PM
never did well in grammer :)
though point taken
Speaking lashona harah about ones self is not a good thing you know (Insert famous story of the chofetz chaim here.) A forum is a place to state opinions. I don't think Dan should have to be a the policeman over frum people. Who is he to tell someone how frum to be? True this is his site but it is also the internet a place designed for freedom of speech. You can feel free to PM someone who does something against halacha, just like if someone says lashon hara in front of you, you can tell them after in private that they spoke lashon hara and should try to rectify their bad habits. Hopefully they will realize that the internet is not a place to speak lashon hara just like we try not to speak it in regular life. That is just what I think a better aproach would be. Also people having these discussions has no effect on his parnasa (buisness interest), unlike people speaking against his sponsors which would effect his parnasa.
Side question: In this thread people are trying to figure out what is ethical or not, why is that against halcha?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shach on March 30, 2012, 01:45:16 PM
this is his site he set it up hes a frum torah jewl
what is that? is that more/less than frum? and besides chiyuv tochacha?is that what you are trying to enforce?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on April 04, 2012, 12:24:05 PM
Since I am not Jewish, Google got a workout on your post. I will just say you have an interesting view point and will leave it at that.

Are you trying to infer that you understood his post? Isn't lying unethical? or maybe you are being very cryptic so if someone calls you on it you can claim you never claimed that you undrstood his post!?

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on April 04, 2012, 12:33:56 PM
This is the road I was talking about. I asked the questions not to attack your religion but to understand.

I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children. I was not taught that Jews were inferior. I think Passover demonstrates that.

I hope youíre not expecting me to defend Islam. I know we disagree on many things but this is not one of them.

So will the vatican be returning all the treasures of the jews (probobly valued in the hundreds of billions if not trillions) it currently holds. Why don't they even allow the jews to view them? how about all the sacred jewish writings that the vatcian currently holds many of them not even published? how about the billions they took during the inquistion? historians beleive the there was more wealth stolen during the inquistion than during the holocaust.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on April 04, 2012, 01:51:29 PM
Are you trying to infer that you understood his post? Isn't lying unethical? or maybe you are being very cryptic so if someone calls you on it you can claim you never claimed that you undrstood his post!?
is there a reason to think he didnt understand the post ???
So will the vatican be returning all the treasures of the jews (probobly valued in the hundreds of billions if not trillions) it currently holds. Why don't they even allow the jews to view them? how about all the sacred jewish writings that the vatcian currently holds many of them not even published? how about the billions they took during the inquistion? historians beleive the there was more wealth stolen during the inquistion than during the holocaust.
im pretty sure HelpMe  is not the pope in disguise so im not sure what your point is. (if you are trying to call him a liar just say it)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 04, 2012, 06:03:21 PM
Are you trying to infer that you understood his post? Isn't lying unethical? or maybe you are being very cryptic so if someone calls you on it you can claim you never claimed that you undrstood his post!?
I think I understand the post. I think the OP is saying that Dan should impose his religious beliefs on all membersí posts. Do I have it correct?

From Google. Please feel free to HelpMe out here:
LOSHON HARA - derogatory speech about another person
MOTZEE SHEM RA - unfounded libelous gossip
RECHILUS Ė gossip
CHILLUL HASHEM Ė this one I know.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 04, 2012, 06:04:35 PM
So will the vatican be returning all the treasures of the jews (probobly valued in the hundreds of billions if not trillions) it currently holds. Why don't they even allow the jews to view them? how about all the sacred jewish writings that the vatcian currently holds many of them not even published? how about the billions they took during the inquistion? historians beleive the there was more wealth stolen during the inquistion than during the holocaust.
What connection do you think I have to the Vatican.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on April 04, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
I think I understand the post. I think the OP is saying that Dan should impose his religious beliefs on all membersí posts. Do I have it correct?

From Google. Please feel free to HelpMe out here:
LOSHON HARA - derogatory speech about another person
MOTZEE SHEM RA - unfounded libelous gossip
RECHILUS Ė gossip
CHILLUL HASHEM Ė this one I know.

If that is really the case I Apologize. What did you mean by "I will just say you have an interesting view point and will leave it at that."?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on April 04, 2012, 06:22:42 PM
What connection do you think I have to the Vatican.

I don't think you have a connection to the vatican. you were infering by your post that Catholicism teaches that everyone is treated the same and you must be honest with everyone because we are all g-d's children, hence, the question is the vatican i.e. Catholicism  contradictory?

Quote from: HelpMe
I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children. I was not taught that Jews were inferior. I think Passover demonstrates that.

also, what does passover have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on April 04, 2012, 06:27:57 PM
From Google. Please feel free to HelpMe out here:
:)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 04, 2012, 06:29:47 PM
If that is really the case I Apologize. What did you mean by "I will just say you have an interesting view point and will leave it at that."?
I did not agree with the point I thought was being made and I really didnít want to get into another religious discussion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on April 10, 2012, 03:07:07 PM
New question...bought a guitar at guitar center. As I was being ringed up the guy offered me a warranty package. I told him that I will be out of the country studying and would the warranty cover me.

He said that if there is no local authorized repair shop for Taylor - the guitar company, Guitar Center will just mail me a check for the cost of the guitar! I said sounds good and bought the package for about $50. Lo and behold, I was traveling and a small crack appeared in the guitar despite buying the case that the same sales guy said no one ever reported having an issue with on a plane...

I called and of course found out that there are no authorized Taylor repair shops in Israel and so they said they would mail a check. Months went by and nothing came so I called and the address had been written down incorrectly so I gave them a new address in Canada. Months went by again and nothing came. (In the meantime I had paid $90 to fix it myself.)

Finally after about 6 months I had enough and called the store and spoke to the manager - which at GC is always a good idea as their CS is pretty good. He took the details and put me in touch with corporate who agreed to finally mail me a new gift card (CORP told me that they don't send cash checks and that the CSR was mistaken...) to my US address and it came shortly thereafter...

A month later...the original gift card (not a check) came to Canada (very slow mail delivery) leaving me with two gift cards....I don't feel it's right to keep both and most likely will go into the store where I bought the guitar and thank the manager for his help and tell him about the discrepancy. At the very least it will hopefully make a kiddush hashem...

Question for DDF, is this the correct decision? Would you do the same?

well...here's the ending..never expected to start such discussions...spoke with corp customer service...2 weeks later never heard back...called back and spoke with head of corp CS who was upset nobody ever got back to me said i'd know within 2 days...well a week or so later he never called back :)...so i called again and spoke to the original person who said one of them might be locked (even though they both show a balance...don't believe that to be plausible) but if not...thanks for calling and ENJOY them both!

so kiddush hashem and hopefully two GC's in the bag...cool thing is that GC carries the new ipad...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 10, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
well...here's the ending..never expected to start such discussions...spoke with corp customer service...2 weeks later never heard back...called back and spoke with head of corp CS who was upset nobody ever got back to me said i'd know within 2 days...well a week or so later he never called back :)...so i called again and spoke to the original person who said one of them might be locked (even though they both show a balance...don't believe that to be plausible) but if not...thanks for calling and ENJOY them both!

so kiddush hashem and hopefully two GC's in the bag...cool thing is that GC carries the new ipad...
What more can you do. They should send you another GC for all your troubles!  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Drago on April 10, 2012, 04:38:26 PM
So will the vatican be returning all the treasures of the jews (probobly valued in the hundreds of billions if not trillions) it currently holds.
If you're referring to the treasures from the beis hamikdash, I think it's been debunked that they have any of the primary keilim from there.
Here is one example  http://halachicadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Ami001.Menorah.final.pdf
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 10, 2012, 04:42:27 PM
If you're referring to the treasures from the beis hamikdash, I think it's been debunked that they have any of the primary keilim from there.
Here is one example  http://halachicadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Ami001.Menorah.final.pdf
I hate when facts get in the way of a good story.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on April 10, 2012, 05:07:26 PM
If you're referring to the treasures from the beis hamikdash, I think it's been debunked that they have any of the primary keilim from there.
Here is one example  http://halachicadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Ami001.Menorah.final.pdf
Beis Hamikdosh?  I thought he said manuscripts and items confiscated during the inquisition.  I don't know about the inquisition but it is common knowledge that they have Hebrew manuscripts.  Did the Vatican buy these?

http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/Hebrew/infochannels/Catalogs/library%20catalogs/Documents/vaticanhebmss.pdf
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Drago on April 10, 2012, 11:59:03 PM
Beis Hamikdosh?  I thought he said manuscripts and items confiscated during the inquisition.  I don't know about the inquisition but it is common knowledge that they have Hebrew manuscripts.  Did the Vatican buy these?

http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/Hebrew/infochannels/Catalogs/library%20catalogs/Documents/vaticanhebmss.pdf
I think those were taken w/o their owner's agreement. :)

I'm sure they have other valuables, I was just commenting on the idea that they still have the menorah, shulchan, etc.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on April 11, 2012, 01:07:43 PM
What more can you do. They should send you another GC for all your troubles!  :)

You're right!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 24, 2012, 10:15:53 PM
The $20 trick?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 25, 2012, 12:41:43 AM
The $20 trick?
This is a hard one. I guess it would be based on your intent.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 25, 2012, 01:02:47 AM
This is a hard one. I guess it would be based on your intent.
Meaning...?
If you are trying to bribe the guy then no but if...I also am not sure but i'm not sure what else your intent is.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on April 25, 2012, 01:10:35 AM
Meaning...?
If you are trying to bribe the guy then no but if...I also am not sure but i'm not sure what else your intent is.
Letís use Vegas hotels as an example. If you try the trick with the intent of getting the clerk to do something against the rules I would say it is not ethical. If you feel the clerk can give upgrades if he wants and the 20 just improves your chances then I donít see a problem.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on April 25, 2012, 01:12:38 AM
9 out of 10 FD clerk has the right to give upgrades, but I do think it's a bribe any way you slice it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 25, 2012, 09:11:16 AM
is it not mre unethical of him to take it then for you to offer it or am i just rationalizing it
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 25, 2012, 09:12:55 AM
is it not mre unethical of him to take it then for you to offer it or am i just rationalizing it
Who cares?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Knaper_Chuchem on April 25, 2012, 09:14:26 AM
9 out of 10 FD clerk has the right to give upgrades, but I do think it's a bribe any way you slice it.
A 'bribe' as in 'illegal', or as in 'unethical'? 
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 25, 2012, 09:23:00 AM
Who cares?
thats why its called rationalizing
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2012, 09:16:14 PM
Is this thread only for deal related ethics or general ethics? If the answer is the latter I have a question. I lifeguard by a pool and I saw a father hitting his 5 year old child multiple times on his bottom for a fairly inconsequential thing, I could see a real anger in the fathers face as if he was hitting him because he was actually mad. What would you do?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on May 15, 2012, 09:18:56 PM
Is this thread only for deal related ethics or general ethics? If the answer is the latter I have a question. I lifeguard by a pool and I saw a father hitting his 5 year old child multiple times on his bottom for a fairly inconsequential thing, I could see a real anger in the fathers face as if he was hitting him because he was actually mad. What would you do?
Ask a shaila and hope the answer is that it's mutar to report the father.
Are you a mandated reporter?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2012, 09:22:13 PM
Ask a shaila and hope the answer is that it's mutar to report the father.
Are you a mandated reporter?
Not as far as I know. Its a frum pool so legal issues aren't usually a problem like that...
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on May 15, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
Not as far as I know. Its a frum pool so legal issues aren't usually a problem like that...
Nothing to do with the pool you work at. I wonder if a lifeguard is a mandated reporter. If you are and you don't report it's possible to get into major trouble(although probably unlikely in this case)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2012, 09:33:50 PM
Nothing to do with the pool you work at. I wonder if a lifeguard is a mandated reporter. If you are and you don't report it's possible to get into major trouble(although probably unlikely in this case)
I've been giving life guarding courses for a few years and I have never seen in any of the red cross books or online references anything mentioning that a lifeguard is a mandated reporter. (If I am wrong that'd be quite embarrassing but I really don't think I am)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 15, 2012, 09:38:21 PM
Per the  NYC website (http://www.nyc.gov/html/acs/html/child_safety/mandated_reporters.shtml)a lifeguard is not by definition a mandated reporter, although depending on the circumstances its possible you would come under a different obligation such as a 'school official'
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on May 15, 2012, 09:49:51 PM
Per the  NYC website (http://www.nyc.gov/html/acs/html/child_safety/mandated_reporters.shtml)a lifeguard is not by definition a mandated reporter, although depending on the circumstances its possible you would come under a different obligation such as a 'school official'
Phew thanks! But seriously what would you guys do in this situation. Would you confront the father? Call the mother? Tell his Rav? Nothing at all (it is his kid after all)?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 15, 2012, 09:53:35 PM
Phew thanks! But seriously what would you guys do in this situation. Would you confront the father? Call the mother? Tell his Rav? Nothing at all (it is his kid after all)?
I don't think this is substantial enough in itself to contact child services, but I would look for a very responsible family member (grandparent, etc) and alert him. I would probably speak to the rebbi or menhal in the school. I would question them and make sure they intend to follow up seriously, and if all else fails call child services (or one of their frum affiliates).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on May 15, 2012, 09:55:43 PM
Phew thanks! But seriously what would you guys do in this situation. Would you confront the father? Call the mother? Tell his Rav? Nothing at all (it is his kid after all)?
if you are young it would prob make it worse as he wont want to listen to you. if you are older you prob should try to say something in a way that he will accept. maybe tell him that as the lifeguard its your responsibility
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on May 15, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
I would probably speak to the rebbi or menhal in the school. I would question them and make sure they intend to follow up seriously, and if all else fails call child services (or one of their frum affiliates).
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on May 16, 2012, 12:45:59 AM
Is this thread only for deal related ethics or general ethics? If the answer is the latter I have a question. I lifeguard by a pool and I saw a father hitting his 5 year old child multiple times on his bottom for a fairly inconsequential thing, I could see a real anger in the fathers face as if he was hitting him because he was actually mad. What would you do?
If you suspect abuse or maltreatment of the child you should report it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shach on May 16, 2012, 01:22:14 AM
and if all else fails call child services (or one of their frum affiliates).
get a heter before, so you shouldn't have mesira/erkaot problems
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 16, 2012, 03:39:35 AM
get a heter before, so you shouldn't have mesira/erkaot problems
I don't think this is substantial enough in itself to contact child services, but I would look for a very responsible family member (grandparent, etc) and alert him. I would probably speak to the rebbi or menhal in the school. I would question them and make sure they intend to follow up seriously, and if all else fails call child services (or one of their frum affiliates).
I'm not so familiar with it, but there should be professional frum organizitions with rabbincal service built in.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on May 16, 2012, 08:05:23 AM
Follow up but I think an important point is context. Why did the father get mad? Is something going on in his life etc? Do you know him and his circumstances? Al tadin es chaverhca ad shetagia limkomo. But OTOH, be diligent.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: karatemike on May 17, 2012, 05:45:08 PM
Is this thread only for deal related ethics or general ethics? If the answer is the latter I have a question. I lifeguard by a pool and I saw a father hitting his 5 year old child multiple times on his bottom for a fairly inconsequential thing, I could see a real anger in the fathers face as if he was hitting him because he was actually mad. What would you do?

Confront the dad, try and calm him down and talk some sense into him. Help the kid.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mek on May 17, 2012, 11:24:33 PM
Confront the dad, try and calm him down and talk some sense into him. Help the kid.

Totally agree. The father will never think anythings wrong unless confronted at the time. If confronted after the fact he'll just brush it off that it was nothing or that you misunderstood the situation
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on May 18, 2012, 03:58:15 AM
I think that it can make it worse. The dad maybe got mad because the son did something trivial but caused him embarrassment. If someone comes over, he may get even more mad at his son.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Q274 on June 10, 2012, 01:58:57 AM
I highly doubt the father will listen to anything you have to say (not you specifically but anyone) it also might make him angrier, and make him take out his frustration more on his son.

Maybe say something like "listen the pool rules are no physical contact, as it can lead to slipping into the water not my rules just letting you know" 

This way you are putting him less on the defensive, and he might actually think abt his actions- as opposed to if were to say to him "in my opinion....." U are putting him on the defensive, and he will never listen.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on June 12, 2012, 07:37:14 PM

I was raised Roman Catholic and it is pretty simple for me. We are all Godís children.

Trying to understand this article, especially in light of "confession and forgiveness".
Popeís ex-banker Ďfears for his lifeí
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/97dee988-b312-11e1-83a9-00144feabdc0.html (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/97dee988-b312-11e1-83a9-00144feabdc0.html)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on June 12, 2012, 07:53:52 PM
Trying to understand this article, especially in light of "confession and forgiveness".
Popeís ex-banker Ďfears for his lifeí
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/97dee988-b312-11e1-83a9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1xco5lPvf (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/97dee988-b312-11e1-83a9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1xco5lPvf)
Link not working. Wants me to register.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on June 12, 2012, 08:00:09 PM
Link not working. Wants me to register.

I beleive it to be fixed now.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on June 12, 2012, 08:02:44 PM
I beleive it to be fixed now.
Nope. You seem to be having problems with links today.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on June 12, 2012, 08:04:36 PM
Nope. You seem to be having problems with links today.  :)

LOL  ;D

About the link, I give up, seems not to be destined.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on June 12, 2012, 08:07:43 PM
About the link, I give up, seems not to be destined.
Maybe ďdivine interventionĒ.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yossi4k on June 17, 2012, 12:43:39 AM
What do you guys think? Air canada just started match bmi status.http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=17193.0;topicseen (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=17193.0;topicseen) I still have my snapshot of bmi silver. A: Will it work as it is an old snapshot? B: Is it ethical as currently I'm a blue member?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on June 17, 2012, 12:45:10 AM
A better question: How COULD it be ethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Yeki89 on June 17, 2012, 01:29:39 AM
A better question: How COULD it be ethical?
rofl
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yossi4k on June 17, 2012, 01:55:32 AM
A better question: How COULD it be ethical?
Lol. Ok then what would you say to A? Would it work?

No signature, ever
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on July 21, 2012, 10:32:23 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=14560.msg266193#msg266193

Do I have to or should I return the extra $50 to Chase?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on July 21, 2012, 11:34:11 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=14560.msg266193#msg266193

Do I have to or should I return the extra $50 to Chase?
Es ken zayn a shaila oyb es is mutar tzu zayn machzir, freg dein LOR.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AsherO on July 22, 2012, 12:47:09 AM
Es ken zayn a shaila oyb es is mutar tzu zayn machzir, freg dein LOR.

Lo sichaneim?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on July 22, 2012, 12:51:24 AM
Lo sichaneim?
yes. Es iz taus akum, un es ken zayn az bemakom she'ein kiddush hashem es iz asur machzir tzu zayn.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 22, 2012, 12:53:59 AM
Dan's wife had the same story.
Ask him what he did.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on July 22, 2012, 06:07:26 AM
Es ken zayn a shaila oyb es is mutar tzu zayn machzir, freg dein LOR.

Puhleeeeze, micama vikama sibos there is no shailo in regards to being machzir bichlal, If there is any shaila it is in regards to keeping it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 22, 2012, 07:14:58 AM
If the shareholders aren't aku"m, what does akum have to do w this?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YudiG on July 22, 2012, 07:29:40 AM
Interesting thread....I once had a similar shaila involving $$$$ that was sent to me by mistake by a major corp...I went to a well renowned rav/posek who told me unequivocally, return it!

Everything comes from above and being honest won't ever punish you...a story that is told about a major gvir that is known is when he first bought a house, they found valuable jewelry inside.

Being that they had acquired the contents, in theory, the find was theirs to keep. As a good Jew, he went to R' Moshe who said while perhaps it was yours, do the right thing and return it - Hashem will repay. The now gvir did so and as they say the rest is history.

R' Don Segal says that when we daven for parnassa on RH, we can daven that it come clean and not have to resort to anything 'shvartz'...amen.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on July 22, 2012, 02:54:48 PM
Puhleeeeze, micama vikama sibos there is no shailo in regards to being machzir bichlal, If there is any shaila it is in regards to keeping it.
I got a psak that if there isn't a shemetz of a chashash that the corp will chap, that it's asur to return, from a rav who paskens for tens of thousands of people. He also said that if there is a shemetz of a chashash you should return, cause of c"h. I repeat, ask your LOR, because mine, (who better know what he's talking about, bec. if not, halb Lakewood is benei nidah) said in a specific case that it's asur.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 22, 2012, 03:01:46 PM
Why is a corp considered aku"m?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MarkS on July 22, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
Why is a corp considered aku"m?
Good question.
I don't know the answer, but m'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan, about 10 years ago when MBNA was still around, I was told that 13% of it is owned by a yid who refuses to do a Heter Iska. I heard that Rav Yisroel Belsky was invloved, so I called him. He told me that it's muttar to hold the card, but not to carry a balance on it at the end of the month (and pay interest). Even though there's a concept of Shtar shekasuv bo ribbis which is assur, for some reason this was muttar to use as long as it's paid in full each week.

I wonder how corporations work in terms of Jewish ownership, but I've never heard of needing to use a heter mechira for shabbos for a guy who owns a small amount of stocks in a company.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 22, 2012, 03:14:16 PM
Becomes of the ownership structure its not a probelm on shabbos,although I don't know why.

Lending to a corp R Moshe paskened is not a ribbis problem, as due to limitedliability laws. There is nobody personally liable and thus no shiabud hagof, so the loan is not considered an halvaa in halchic terms.

Burrowing from a corp is more complicated, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on July 22, 2012, 03:33:19 PM
Why is a corp considered aku"m?
i hear ya.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on August 05, 2012, 12:47:41 AM
(who better know what he's talking about, bec. if not, halb Lakewood is benei nidah)
-1.  i know ppl that answer shailos in hilchos nidah and are on the mark but when it comes to choshen mispat or other parts of shulchon aruch that they havent learned about that exact case and would need to either figure out what sugyos go into this specific case or they would need to be medameh milsa lemilsa,and they are missing that skill  and are way off 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 05, 2012, 02:38:38 AM
-1.  i know ppl that answer shailos in hilchos nidah and are on the mark but when it comes to choshen mispat or other parts of shulchon aruch that they havent learned about that exact case and would need to either figure out what sugyos go into this specific case or they would need to be medameh milsa lemilsa,and they are missing that skill  and are way off
good point. but this specific rav if he doesn't know what he's talking about, half of lakewood would be being mechallel shabbos, and doing the wrong things with the chamurdike fertility shaalos, akitzur, he's very very respected, that was my point.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 05, 2012, 02:41:23 AM
Just to add to this subject on taus akum....


''כותב הבאר הגולה, "ראיתי רבים גדלו והעשירו מן טעות שהטעו העכו''ם, ולא הצליחו

עי' בבאר הגולה חו''מ סי' שמ''ח אות ה' שכותב וז''ל, ואני כותב זאת לדורות, שראיתי רבים גדלו והעשירו מן טעות שהטעו העכו''ם, ולא הצליחו וירדו נכסיהן לטמיון ולא הניחו אחריהם ברכה, כמ''ש בספר החסידים סימן תתרע''ד, [ו]רבים אשר קדשו ה' והחזירו טעויות העכו''ם בדבר חשוב, גדלו והעשירו והצליחו והניחו יתרם לעולליהם, עכ''ל.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on August 05, 2012, 03:29:50 AM
these shailas of corporation is much bigger than just keeping the money, i.e. i just finished tevilas kielim, and chalav akum, and so on, 2 things if a jew owns a stock in the company is it considered chalov yisroel? or do i have to do tevila? bec the chinese person who is buliding the product is doing it bec of his say so, which might make it ok - there are so many q's about this, when hagoan r' moshe writes aout chalov akum he calls is cholv companies, bec he is under the notion that maybe a non-jew fully owns the company or maybe even 51% of it, or maybe even if a jew owns part of it but does he sit in on the meetings.... so its much more of an ethical question when we dont even realize it, its sce=ary, (bec i only learned this now.....:-(
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 07, 2012, 06:04:43 PM
these shailas of corporation is much bigger than just keeping the money, i.e. i just finished tevilas kielim, and chalav akum, and so on, 2 things if a jew owns a stock in the company is it considered chalov yisroel? or do i have to do tevila? bec the chinese person who is buliding the product is doing it bec of his say so, which might make it ok - there are so many q's about this, when hagoan r' moshe writes aout chalov akum he calls is cholv companies, bec he is under the notion that maybe a non-jew fully owns the company or maybe even 51% of it, or maybe even if a jew owns part of it but does he sit in on the meetings.... so its much more of an ethical question when we dont even realize it, its sce=ary, (bec i only learned this now.....:-(

Can you please explain, which part is the chidush? Also sorry for my ignarance, I do not know the sugya, but by Cholov Yisroel I always thought it has to be under observation of a Yisroel at the time of chaliva, no?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 07, 2012, 09:42:54 PM
Also sorry for my ignarance, I do not know the sugya, but by Cholov Yisroel I always thought it has to be under observation of a Yisroel at the time of chaliva, no?

Thanks!
+1, pretty sure ownership is only relevant for gevinas akum
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on August 08, 2012, 12:57:58 AM
+1, pretty sure ownership is only relevant for gevinas akum

r' moshes famous heter is that even with out seeing we can say its ok (chalov companies) and what if i own a part in that company - then it shoud technically be cholov isroel,  of course r' eliyashiv holds all this is not true, and theres no such thing as a jew owning "part" of a company thru stock, he holds that one must be sitting on board meetings and have a say in the company.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 01:05:41 AM
r' moshes famous heter is that even with out seeing we can say its ok (chalov companies) and what if i own a part in that company - then it shoud technically be cholov isroel,  of course r' eliyashiv holds all this is not true, and theres no such thing as a jew owning "part" of a company thru stock, he holds that one must be sitting on board meetings and have a say in the company.
I think you are misunderstanding something. Rav moshe's heter if milk has nothing to do with ownership.
He has a separate teshuva about company ownership with regards to choshen mishpat and ribis, I believe.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on August 08, 2012, 01:13:42 AM
i can be mistaken, the way i was told and learned it is that they are connected between the heter and now the ownership as well, but ok, i will go bak and do it over :-) thanks thats the point of chazara...right? r' fiener once asked me where im holding in a mesechata, i said about to finish...he said gr8 this way u can start again sooner...:)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 08, 2012, 01:17:03 AM
I think you are misunderstanding something. Rav moshe's heter of milk has nothing to do with ownership.
He has a separate teshuva about company ownership with regards to choshen mishpat and ribis, I believe.
+1   
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on August 08, 2012, 01:21:10 AM
i know its all about the reiya, but like is said he was also talking about it to the company as well, then.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 01:22:34 AM
i know its all about the reiya, but like is said he was also talking about it to the company as well, then.
-1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on August 08, 2012, 01:30:11 AM
ok then, thanks for correcting me, sorry if i caused misconfusion, will call later today to clarify all these points
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Shotguns on August 08, 2012, 01:44:36 PM
Is it ethical to take advantage of another person if he makes mistake? I'm referring to the elal tix
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 08, 2012, 02:20:10 PM
Is it ethical to take advantage of another person if he makes mistake? I'm referring to the elal tix

You question begs the question.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 08, 2012, 05:38:37 PM
Is it ethical to ask questions just for the sake of asking, not caring about the answer, just about a higher post count? Is it ethical to ask a question in order to attack anyone who will answer (baiting)?

Anyways, about Elal, I am still thinking about it. Anyone who had this question could shoot first and ask afterwards, within the cancellation period.

A similar question can be asked (but on a different plane) can you go to a store and only buy the item which is steeply discounted? They make a big sale to get people to walk in the door and then those people will buy more items at a profit to the store (think Ralphs Matzos)? It may be the same as asking - can you get a cc with a signup bonus al daas to cancel it right after (hitting the spend threshold)?

I do not know the answers to these ethical questions, does anyone here? Ever asked a competent LOR? (not ENT Phd)
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 06:23:30 PM
A similar question can be asked (but on a different plane) can you go to a store and only buy the item which is steeply discounted? They make a big sale to get people to walk in the door and then those people will buy more items at a profit to the store (think Ralphs Matzos)?
 

I hope you're joking about this one.

 
Quote

 It may be the same as asking - can you get a cc with a signup bonus al daas to cancel it right after (hitting the spend threshold)?
I hear the question slightly more but again this is the risk companies take to try and try you're business. Even if you would tell them your plan they would still tell you to get it, a chance for your business
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 07:06:55 PM
BTW, I think this whole thread has no shaychus. Is it Ethical? I don't care! What does the Torah think? Is it al pi Torah - Halachically and Hashkaficly?, that's what I want to know. Ethics - based on what?  - farshtunkene Western Culture, that thinks there's nothing wrong with walking around halb naked. I think, Is it Ethical, is the wrong way for a frum jew to phrase a question if something is right or wrong. Is it Al Pi Torah?, that's relevant.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 08:03:04 PM
BTW, I think this whole thread has no shaychus. Is it Ethical? I don't care! What does the Torah think? Is it al pi Torah - Halachically and Hashkaficly?, that's what I want to know. Ethics - based on what?  - farshtunkene Western Culture, that thinks there's nothing wrong with walking around halb naked. I think, Is it Ethical, is the wrong way for a frum jew to phrase a question if something is right or wrong. Is it Al Pi Torah?, that's relevant.
Sorry Mr. holier than though. I assume that is what everyone is discussing here, just the thread is titled is it ethical
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 08:12:47 PM
Sorry Mr. holier than though. I assume that is what everyone is discussing here, just the thread is titled is it ethical
Sorry Mr. "everyone opens up to me, and tells me their deepest secrets", my point is that it's a bad title. And ppl post questions on it starting with, "is it ethical" alot.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 08:42:58 PM
my point is that it's a bad title. And ppl post questions on it starting with, "is it ethical" alot.
and you did it in a condescending and holier than though way. maybe next time say it nicely and your mussar will be accepted
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 09:11:35 PM
and you did it in a condescending and holier than though way. maybe next time say it nicely and your mussar will be accepted
maybe next time don't read it in a condescending way. ppl with self esteem issues read things in a condescending way, even though there is no tone of voice in the written word.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on August 08, 2012, 10:11:43 PM
@lamdan
This is a secular forum. (which accidentally attracted a huge crowd of a certain culture/religion).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 10:14:59 PM
@lamdan
This is a secular forum. (which accidentally attracted a huge crowd of a certain culture/religion).
Well, then it was mean of you to have a username that the intended audience of this forum wouldn't understand. :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 08, 2012, 10:26:55 PM
@lamdan
This is a secular forum. (which accidentally attracted a huge crowd of a certain culture/religion).

Says who?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on August 08, 2012, 10:40:38 PM
BTW, I think this whole thread has no shaychus. Is it Ethical? I don't care! What does the Torah think? Is it al pi Torah - Halachically and Hashkaficly?, that's what I want to know. Ethics - based on what?  - farshtunkene Western Culture, that thinks there's nothing wrong with walking around halb naked. I think, Is it Ethical, is the wrong way for a frum jew to phrase a question if something is right or wrong. Is it Al Pi Torah?, that's relevant.

Are there never any situations where something may be permitted by torah law and still not be questioned if it's ethical or not?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 11:09:35 PM
Are there never any situations where something may be permitted by torah law and hashkafa and still not be questioned if it's ethical or not?
no
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 11:36:59 PM
maybe next time don't read it in a condescending way. ppl with self esteem issues read things in a condescending way, even though there is no tone of voice in the written word.
Some times you don't need tone to tell if something is condescending, like this post where you accuse me of having low self esteem. Unless that wasn't condescending either
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 11:42:07 PM
Some times you don't need tone to tell if something is condescending, like this post where you accuse me of having low self esteem. Unless that wasn't condescending either
The low self esteem post was condescending to someone who ripped me - you. The post b4 that about "ethical" was not condescending at all - unless you have a low self esteem.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 08, 2012, 11:45:34 PM
The low self esteem post was condescending to someone who ripped me - you. The post b4 that about "ethical" was not condescending at all - unless you have a low self esteem.
You got me. I have low self esteem. Thanks for embarrassing me in public and further lowering my self esteem
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on August 08, 2012, 11:47:39 PM
no
Wow.
Why would you edit my quote?
That wasn't my question.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 11:48:19 PM
You got me. I have low self esteem. Thanks for embarrassing me in public and further lowering my self esteem
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=17505.15
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 08, 2012, 11:50:08 PM
 
Wow.
Why would you edit my quote?
That wasn't my question.
I bolded what I edited. My point is that if you modify the question to include hashkafa, I would answer - no. No harm intended.  :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on August 08, 2012, 11:52:44 PM
I bolded what I edited. My point is that if you modify the question to include hashkafa, I would answer - no. No harm intended.  :) :) :) :) :)

Just curious as to why you don't consider ethics to be part of hashkafa?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 09, 2012, 12:00:49 AM
Just curious as to why you don't consider ethics to be part of hashkafa?
Normally - is it ethical?, is a question featured in many secular magazines and newspapers, answered by a bunch of shtufei zima - toevahnikers. Technically, mussar can be translated as ethics.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 09, 2012, 12:36:50 AM
If you all what to talk religion how about starting another thread. This one is about ethics not religion.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 09, 2012, 12:38:41 AM
Just curious as to why you don't consider ethics to be part of hashkafa?
If you all what to talk religion how about starting another thread. This one is about ethics not religion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 09, 2012, 12:50:11 AM
Ethics and religion have nothing to do with each other. If you want to start a thread on religion I would be more than happy to participate but I guarantee you that you will not like what I have to say.

Example: A large part of this site could be looked at as to take advantage, scam or exploit deals. What religion do you know of that condones this? So before someone wants to open this can of worms you might want to look in the mirror first.   
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on August 09, 2012, 01:00:41 AM
Ethics and religion have nothing to do with each other. If you want to start a thread on religion I would be more than happy to participate but I guarantee you that you will not like what I have to say.

Example: A large part of this site could be looked at as to take advantage, scam or exploit deals. What religion do you know of that condones this? So before someone wants to open this can of worms you might want to look in the mirror first.   

Sounds like oodles of fun! But I don't think even Just Shmooze could handle such a topic. You'd have to make a whole new domain name IMHO. (JBTW I look great in the mirror :P)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 09, 2012, 01:06:05 AM
Sounds like oodles of fun! But I don't think even Just Shmooze could handle such a topic. You'd have to make a whole new domain name IMHO. (JBTW I look great in the mirror :P)
I donít know if I would call it fun especially when someone could not tell the difference from my views and a point I would be trying to make. I hate to be the one to break the news to you but you need a new mirror!  :P 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on August 09, 2012, 01:31:57 AM
I donít know if I would call it fun especially when someone could not tell the difference from my views and a point I would be trying to make. I hate to be the one to break the news to you but you need a new mirror!  :P 
Obviously you just have to ignore the ignoramuses like any good debate. The mirror comment hurts now that I know you've seen me ;). When we do start this thread are we going to get in to real religious debate like Isiah 53 and all the Nachmanodies debates with Priests from the middle ages :)) (I have a feeling some people will hate this post and I'll prob. end up deleting it. Like I said need a new domain name IMHO.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 09, 2012, 01:43:22 AM
Obviously you just have to ignore the ignoramuses like any good debate. The mirror comment hurts now that I know you've seen me ;). When we do start this thread are we going to get in to real religious debate like Isiah 53 and all the Nachmanodies debates with Priests from the middle ages :)) (I have a feeling some people will hate this post and I'll prob. end up deleting it. Like I said need a new domain name IMHO.
You trying to start a war?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on August 09, 2012, 01:48:04 AM
You trying to start a war?  :)
Actually we've already been slaughtered for thousands of years thanks to such wars...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 09, 2012, 09:31:07 AM
OK, chill everyone!

About ethics, we just read in the Parsha "veasita haYushar vehatoiv". Rav Avigdor Miller ZTZL used to speak about this pasuk alot. IMHO, this is what people here mean when they ask if something is ethical. It means; is this something prohibited because it is unethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 09, 2012, 09:35:51 AM
OK, chill everyone!

About ethics, we just read in the Parsha "veasita haYushar vehatoiv". Rav Avigdor Miller ZTZL used to speak about this pasuk alot. IMHO, this is what people here mean when they ask if something is ethical. It means; is this something prohibited because it is unethical?
Care to translate for the non Jews?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on August 09, 2012, 10:05:37 AM
@HelpMe
Don't care.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 09, 2012, 10:44:01 AM
Care to translate for the non Jews?
Do the straight and the good
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 09, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
Obviously you just have to ignore the ignoramuses like any good debate. The mirror comment hurts now that I know you've seen me ;). When we do start this thread are we going to get in to real religious debate like Isiah 53 and all the Nachmanodies debates with Priests from the middle ages :)) (I have a feeling some people will hate this post and I'll prob. end up deleting it. Like I said need a new domain name IMHO.
I'm gonna have to become a teenager again, when I enjoyed intellectually beating up on the missionaries on the corner. Live, and let live.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 09, 2012, 05:25:57 PM
Do the straight and the good

That means that you can not weasel out with a loophole by claiming it is not anywhere in "The Book". It is a built in global superseding clause, all inclusive.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 13, 2012, 12:11:28 AM
It's been very disturbing reading some of the comments on the DD site as well as some on this thread and the price mistake thread.  People write about how it can muttar to nochri but assur to a yid and this way and that way using more vivid terms like goy, Jew etc...

How can folks be so grossly irresponsible?  Do they not realize they are on the world wide web?  And that (potentially) millions are reading what they write?  What chillul Hashem..  It already made it onto the Boarding Areas' Wandering Aramean (http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewanderingaramean/2012/08/el-al-honoring-the-mistake-fare-not-much-of-a-surprise/) and probably many other places.

What a shanda!
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: statusmiles on August 13, 2012, 12:16:16 AM
It's been very disturbing reading some of the comments on the DD site as well as some on this thread and the price mistake thread.  People write about how it can muttar to nochri but assur to a yid and this way and that way using more vivid terms like goy, Jew etc...

How can folks be so grossly irresponsible?  Do they not realize they are on the world wide web?  And that (potentially) millions are reading what they write?  What chillul Hashem..  It already made it onto the Boarding Areas' Wandering Aramean (http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewanderingaramean/2012/08/el-al-honoring-the-mistake-fare-not-much-of-a-surprise/) and probably many other places.

What a shanda!

Amen
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 13, 2012, 07:59:27 AM
Many have "asked" over the centuries why Jews can take interest from non-jews but not from jews. (MoV)

The answer is very simple and you do not have to be apologetic about it. The same applies for taut akum.

There is nothing wrong with renting out your houseboat or sailplane, similarly, if you own a trolleybus or bop-it, you can rent it out at any price which is agreeable to both sides. The same exact holds true with money. If I have a spare $40k, I can buy a cd for 1.04% or lend it to you for a monthly fee or invest with you in your venture and split the profits. Whatever we agree on is fine.

The fact that we have a special club benefit between jews does not make it unethical to exclude those not in the club. Anyone can join if they are sincere but you got to pay your dues to enjoy the bennies. 613 commandants for you are also many benefits that you share with others when you keep them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: boruch on August 13, 2012, 08:14:34 AM
Wow, Judaism just went from a religion to a 'club' ... ;)

Not the greatest way of trying to explain this concept IMHO.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 13, 2012, 08:25:23 AM
Wow, Judaism just went from a religion to a 'club' ... ;)

Not the greatest way of trying to explain this concept IMHO.
I think it's the correct answer. You only are required to go above and beyond for your brethren.
There is a basic set of rules which apply to everyone. The extras are for family
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 09:07:07 AM
Wow, Judaism just went from a religion to a 'club' ... ;)

Not the greatest way of trying to explain this concept IMHO.
The best way to explain this concept is don't try to explain it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 13, 2012, 09:41:21 AM
The best way to explain this concept is don't try to explain it.
The best way to explain this concept is don't try to explain it on a public forum.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 09:44:53 AM
The best way to explain this concept is don't try to explain it on a public forum.
Public or private this only makes sense to ones in your "family". You will only be digging a deeper whole.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 13, 2012, 09:48:40 AM
Public or private this only makes sense to ones in your "family". You will only be digging a deeper whole.
By not in a public forum, I meant where there are people not in your "family".
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 09:54:26 AM
By not in a public forum, I meant where there are people not in your "family".
I would hope everyone in your "family" understands this concept. It is the 99% of the rest of the world that it would be hard to have the same understanding.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 13, 2012, 09:59:16 AM
I would hope everyone in your "family" understands this concept. It is the 99% of the rest of the world that it would be hard to have the same understanding.  ;)
I agree with you, especially the lousy explanation offered above.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 13, 2012, 10:11:12 AM
I don't know... I'm not convinced it's that complicated of concept to digest.

Like the club metaphor or not, the fact remains that it does the trick.

Pay your dues to Club A, get X-Y-Z benefits. For a non-Club A'er to complain that he has no access to the X-Y-Z benefits, or to label Club A members elitist or selfish because the X-Y-Z benefits are not shared among the masses, evinces a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of a club.

To put it in terms people here might find palatable: It would be patently ridiculous for one, who has no Delta status at all, to complain that a he or she is not upgraded ahead of, or at least along with, a Delta Diamond Medallion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 10:46:14 AM
The concept of the club is not hard to understand. The hard part to understand is people are getting treated differently based on religion. No matter how you slice it will always come back to that simple fact.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 13, 2012, 11:00:47 AM
You say religion, I say club.

I don't see a practical difference, though, of course, I am open to being enlightened otherwise.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on August 13, 2012, 11:07:22 AM
Its been animal and human nature to take care of ones own tribe, pack, flock etc, before others since the beginning of time. Now that the world has gone all "peacy" we need to start justifying our actions? I'm sorry but I'm calling BS. This is the natural order of the wold, this is how we have survived for 3000 years. Some Johny come lately ideology has a problem with it, sure we can also make up nice and peacy answers but IMHO its not necessary. Especially in this case.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 11:24:26 AM
Its been animal and human nature to take care of ones own tribe, pack, flock etc, before others since the beginning of time. Now that the world has gone all "peacy" we need to start justifying our actions? I'm sorry but I'm calling BS. This is the natural order of the wold, this is how we have survived for 3000 years. Some Johny come lately ideology has a problem with it, sure we can also make up nice and peacy answers but IMHO its not necessary. Especially in this case.
You say religion, I say club.

I don't see a practical difference, though, of course, I am open to being enlightened otherwise.
What if I decide all white people are my family/club? Can I then treat whites better than blacks? I am just pointing out why it is better to let this one go or you can try and change the PC world we now live in.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on August 13, 2012, 11:37:01 AM
What if I decide all white people are my family/club? Can I then treat whites better than blacks? I am just pointing out why it is better to let this one go or you can try and change the PC world we now live in.
I said no reason to justify. So in part I am agreeing with you. Call it let it go or don't justify the question they have similar results. Anyway your still wrong though. Was it not PC that 99% of the black vote went to president Obama? I don't think anyone accused them if that. Even in the PC world we live in we see hypocrisy and favoritism usually towards minorities. I still stand by what I said in my last post.   
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 11:41:40 AM
I said no reason to justify. So in part I am agreeing with you. Call it let it go or don't justify the question they have similar results. Anyway your still wrong though. Was it not PC that 99% of the black vote went to president Obama? I don't think anyone accused them if that. Even in the PC world we live in we see hypocrisy and favoritism usually towards minorities. I still stand by what I said in my last post.
Most blacks voted for Obama because they are racist, plain and simple.

ETA: To get this back OT is it ethical to vote for someone because of the color of their skin?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 13, 2012, 11:42:17 AM
What if I decide all white people are my family/club? Can I then treat whites better than blacks?

Sneaky.

"Better"--at least the way you're employing it--is a dangerous and ambiguous word.

If by "better" you mean can I choose to refrain from subjugating Caucasian-Americans, while at the same time attempting to subjugate African-Americans, then no, I cannot treat "whites better than blacks."

If, however, by "better" you mean can I choose to give $100 of my charitable donations to charities which operate in predominantly "white" neighborhoods, while only giving $10 of my charitable donations to charities which operate in predominantly "black" neighborhoods, then yes, I'd say absolutely.

See the difference?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 13, 2012, 11:55:28 AM
Sneaky.

"Better"--at least the way you're employing it--is a dangerous and ambiguous word.

If by "better" you mean can I choose to refrain from subjugating Caucasian-Americans, while at the same time attempting to subjugate African-Americans, then no, I cannot treat "whites better than blacks."

If, however, by "better" you mean can I choose to give $100 of my charitable donations to charities which operate in predominantly "white" neighborhoods, while only giving $10 of my charitable donations to charities which operate in predominantly "black" neighborhoods, then yes, I'd say absolutely.

See the difference?
+1
The point is that this is going above and beyond, not the letter of the law
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on August 13, 2012, 11:56:20 AM
Most blacks voted for Obama because they are racist, plain and simple.

ETA: To get this back OT is it ethical to vote for someone because of the color of their skin?
If you feel he represents you better because he's black I don't see the problem
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 12:05:11 PM
See the difference?
Of course I see the difference. In the first example you openly discriminated against blacks. In the second example you tried to hide the fact that you discriminated against blacks.  :)

We are actually on the same page but I am just pointing out how easy it is for someone to twist what is going on.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on August 13, 2012, 12:22:42 PM
Of course I see the difference. In the first example you openly discriminated against blacks. In the second example you tried to hide the fact that you discriminated against blacks.  :)

We are actually on the same page but I am just pointing out how easy it is for someone to twist what is going on.

You did it again. Your dubious use of the word "discriminate," the all-powerful D-word, which is unfortunately thrown around these days with reckless abandon, casts my hypothetical in a pejorative light, a light you know was not intended.

You choosing to have beef over chicken is <gasp> discriminating against chicken. But, as I'm sure you're well aware, that does not mean you are breaking the law. There are indeed types of discrimination, as I just showed, which are perfectly innocuous.

So, yes, someone who intentionally wants to manipulate and twist can always find what to manipulate and twist. That doesn't (and/or shouldn't) affect the underlying, non-manipulated, non-twisted meaning.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 13, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
Kesef talveh es ami, that's why it can't be with interest, not because it's a club.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 13, 2012, 05:27:16 PM
You all are great at explaining. I am pointing out again that taking interest or keeping taus akum is not unethical racism or discrimination, nothing wrong at all. I made a point of rentals and used clubs as a metaphor.

HelpMe is rightly pointing out that no matter how clear and simple something is, many are not interested in understanding, they seek to complain. They will twist everything. OK, that said, is the rental concept simple as pie?

About club and religion, it was a metaphor but more apt to apply to Judaism than other scenarios (Color or other race/religion). Jews are accepting of converts, we do not seek them but accept sincere converts (not those who want to join just to get the bennies like free housing in Germany or fin/aid from the Israeli gov). We do not damn or ... anyone who does not convert or believe (except NaNachs, not to talk about that here or now).

Im kesef talve is the source of qualifying the prohibition of neshech, interest. There is no reason that it is evil, sly, unethical etc. to take interest from anyone. Some may feel otherwise and the rental and club metaphor should clear that up very simply. We are not scared of explaining, we have nothing to hide. For those interested to know.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 05:46:42 PM
Many have "asked" over the centuries why Jews can take interest from non-jews but not from jews. (MoV)
This is only based on what I have seen. No matter how you try to explain this most non Jews will look at this as a form of prejudice/discrimination/favoritism. This is not even counting the ones who will twist everything said to their benefit.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 13, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
OK, but do you understand it or do you feel the explanation is complicated/twisted etc?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on August 13, 2012, 05:55:50 PM
OK, but do you understand it or do you feel the explanation is complicated/twisted etc?
The explanation is clear. Of all the things that have been explained to me this is the one that might be the hardest to accept.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on August 14, 2012, 01:27:36 AM
OK, but do you understand it or do you feel the explanation is complicated/twisted etc?
I personally believe that it isn't the true explanation. (I know the "you" in the above quote was HelpMe.) I think a openminded guy like HelpMe could accept the slightly harsher yet what I believe is the true explanation, it's the haters that I am scared of, so I won't discuss further. (I have a right to be scared of haters, my great-grandparents, great uncles and great aunts, were killed by haters in the holocaust, as so many ppl on these forums grandparents were). Enough said.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on August 14, 2012, 05:39:08 AM
I think I am more explaining why the question does not start, rather than explaining an answer, idk if that makes sense  ???
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2012, 08:45:57 AM
Recently purchased an expensive piece of delsey luggage. the first time I used it the handle bar broke. Submitted a claim on Thursday night to amex for purchase protection. Was credited over shabbos.
Now the question is would it be ethical to claim to delsey to fix the luggage. Based on the concept of subrogation it seems as if amex has purchased my rights to claim on delsey. However they will never execute this right.
What do you think?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
No one with any opinion on the matter? How about one of the lawyers from a legal standpoint?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on September 30, 2012, 12:35:09 PM
Most people here don't really care about these problems.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2012, 12:41:12 PM
Most people here don't really care about these problems.
That's sad
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on September 30, 2012, 12:58:17 PM
Who cares.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2012, 01:19:21 PM
Who cares.
God
Not saying everyone should have the same set of moral values but everyone should have a moral compass and live up to the standards they set for themselves
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on September 30, 2012, 01:54:39 PM
God
...in that case I would say use the settlement from Amex to get it fixed.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2012, 02:10:57 PM
...in that case I would say use the settlement from Amex to get it fixed.
But from delsey's perspective they are liable to fix the suitcase. Why should it matter if amex paid
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on September 30, 2012, 02:30:27 PM
Than you should ask someone with authority to represent God. I doubt that's HelpMe.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on September 30, 2012, 03:16:48 PM
Than you should ask someone with authority to represent God. I doubt that's HelpMe.
You have a lot to learn if you think anyone has the authority to represent God.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on September 30, 2012, 03:37:33 PM
Would you learn me what the Roman Catholics say about that?
I know in Judaism there's such a concept.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on September 30, 2012, 06:06:03 PM
No such thing for RC that I know of. Who in Judaism has the authority to represent God?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on September 30, 2012, 06:09:05 PM
Would you learn me what the Roman Catholics say about that?
I know in Judaism there's such a concept.
@helpme you know how reliable meshugener is. i would just say its another one of his questions in a statement form
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on September 30, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
@helpme you know how reliable meshugener is. i would just say its another one of his questions in a statement form
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on September 30, 2012, 06:16:10 PM
@helpme you know how reliable meshugener is. i would just say its another one of his questions in a statement form
I keep holding out hope for this guy but it seems it is getting worse not better.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ahecht37 on September 30, 2012, 06:27:36 PM
Recently purchased an expensive piece of delsey luggage. the first time I used it the handle bar broke. Submitted a claim on Thursday night to amex for purchase protection. Was credited over shabbos.
Now the question is would it be ethical to claim to delsey to fix the luggage. Based on the concept of subrogation it seems as if amex has purchased my rights to claim on delsey. However they will never execute this right.
What do you think?
Zeh nehneh vzeh lo chasur, and amex won't care one way or the other
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 02, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
Zeh nehneh vzeh lo chasur, and amex won't care one way or the other
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on October 02, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
Zeh nehneh vzeh lo chasur, and amex won't care one way or the other

Are you for real?!?!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 02, 2012, 08:12:41 PM
Are you for real?!?!
Of course, densely is still liable and amex won't claim it from them. You never gave up your right to amex b/c anan sahedi they won't try to collect on it
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ahecht37 on October 02, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
Of course, densely is still liable and amex won't claim it from them. You never gave up your right to amex b/c anan sahedi they won't try to collect on it
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 02, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
spoke to some lawyers (one guy who really deals with this stuff) and he told me to email amex. Will report back
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on October 02, 2012, 09:26:53 PM
Zeh nehneh vzeh lo chasur, and amex won't care one way or the other
the question is in a ethical thread, so if you mean to compare something about his case to a case of znvzl"c, ( which i am not understanding) thats fine, but as for halacha is concerned there is no conection
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 02, 2012, 10:45:57 PM
In Judaism, the righteous and pious leaders have the authority to represent and tell people God's wishes.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 02, 2012, 11:33:03 PM
+1
Doesn't ethical = halachikly acceptable?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 02, 2012, 11:41:50 PM
+1
Doesn't ethical = halachikly acceptable?

Not necessarily. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 02, 2012, 11:46:53 PM
ok granted, but I would venture that the real issue for the oilam here is halacha not ethics.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 02, 2012, 11:57:14 PM
ok granted, but I would venture that the real issue for the oilam here is halacha not ethics.

Some things might be halachically allowed and I would still hope people had the sensitivity to think if they are ethical.
#mytwocents
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 03, 2012, 12:00:55 AM
מסכים :)
The problem is the other direction ethical but אסור nonetheless.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 03, 2012, 12:05:14 AM
מסכים :)
The problem is the other direction ethical but אסור nonetheless.

Right.

Any examples?

Can't think of any offhand. Know plenty exist.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 03, 2012, 12:12:35 AM
I dunno.  It seems like the discussion above about the suitcase might be relevant.  I am curious if there would be any halachik issue in the following case.

  What happens if I buy online for the amex big break promotion and the credits don't post.  I broke their rules by making an online purchase but I sm them asking for credits and they give it to me.   Should that be mutar?  What about using the $200  plat credit for gc's? 
I know we all do this but you know it's right after yom kippur and it makes me wonder sometimes...
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 03, 2012, 12:14:15 AM
What about using the $200  plat credit for gc's? 
I know we all do this
Speak for yourself
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ahecht37 on October 03, 2012, 12:15:06 AM
מסכים :)
The problem is the other direction ethical but אסור nonetheless.
Right.

Any examples?

Can't think of any offhand. Know plenty exist.
what defines ethical besides the Torah? halacha is not ethics, it's law, just because u can do something legally doesn't mean u should
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on October 03, 2012, 12:16:14 AM
In Judaism, the righteous and pious leaders have the authority to represent and tell people God's wishes.
no. (i am assuming it was a question)
Right.

Any examples?

Can't think of any offhand. Know plenty exist.
not sure about all the specifics with the luggage but to me it sound ethical and asur 
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 03, 2012, 12:16:52 AM
Speak for yourself
אדרבה speak for yourself.  do you think it's אסור?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 03, 2012, 12:17:56 AM
אדרבה speak for yourself.  do you think it's אסור?
Hard to say. Definitely think it is unethical
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 03, 2012, 12:18:28 AM
what defines ethical besides the Torah? halacha is not ethics, it's law, just because u can do something legally doesn't mean u should

Again, I couldn't think of any examples but I still think there must be some examples of something that's considered ethical that is nonetheless asur.


And vice versa there are for sure many things like I said originally.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on October 03, 2012, 12:19:59 AM
Hard to say. Definitely think it is unethical
whats unethical about buying gc i thought in the tc it say gc are not excluded
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 03, 2012, 12:24:01 AM
in the t&c's it says gc are excluded
FTFY
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 03, 2012, 12:28:40 AM
Ethics by definition are a personal thing. Halacha is generally more black and white. Ethics are peoples personal views and morals. And everyone has different standards and sensitivities.

Some matters are more widely accepted as being ethical or not but when you're talking about specific situations on a smaller scale everyones going to have their own opinions which is exactly what this thread is for. People sharing their opinions on various topics and their moral and ethical views.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 03, 2012, 12:32:29 AM
maybe this all belongs here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.0)
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 03, 2012, 12:56:22 AM
Ethics by definition are a personal thing. Halacha is generally more black and white. Ethics are peoples personal views and morals. And everyone has different standards and sensitivities.

Some matters are more widely accepted as being ethical or not but when you're talking about specific situations on a smaller scale everyones going to have their own opinions which is exactly what this thread is for. People sharing their opinions on various topics and their moral and ethical views.
There is a mandate in the Torah of vi'asisa hayashar vi'hatov
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on October 03, 2012, 01:03:17 AM
There is a mandate in the Torah of vi'asisa hayashar vi'hatov


And when it comes to things like that you will always get people with different opinions and sensitivities,  morals and different standards.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ahecht37 on October 03, 2012, 01:58:07 AM

And when it comes to things like that you will always get people with different opinions and sensitivities,  morals and different standards.
that's very nice and each person is entitled to their own opinion and standards but there's no such thing as ethics if any person can make up their own (for example I may not feel that it's wrong to kill someone) the Torah (not halacha) however sets a standard of what is and isn't moral/ethical
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 03, 2012, 10:46:11 AM
spoke to some lawyers (one guy who really deals with this stuff) and he told me to email amex. Will report back
Emailed amex and they told me they can't answer since the insurance is outsourced. Called the insurance and they said that agree a claim is settled I am free to do whatever I want. asked even if they will fix for free? She put me on hold and asked a supervisor who said after claim its settled I can do whatever I want
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 11:24:16 AM
Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles. A agrees. B sells miles to C for 2cpm. B pays A 1.9cpm. A keeps difference.

On these facts, ethical?

Discuss.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 11:35:03 AM
Without telling him he's taking a cut?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 11:46:08 AM
Without telling him he's taking a cut?

Correct. Nothing further was discussed.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 12:18:24 PM
Correct. Nothing further was discussed.
I think that's not right. It's fully within his right to take a cut but why not be open about it
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles. A agrees. B sells miles to C for 2cpm. B pays A 1.9cpm. A keeps difference.

On these facts, ethical?

Discuss.
It is ethical even if B does not mention his commission.

Do you mean "B" keeps the difference?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
Yes. Should read B keeps the difference (i.e. commission).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 04, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles. A agrees. B sells miles to C for 2cpm. B pays A 1.9cpm. A keeps difference.

On these facts, ethical?

Discuss.

Totally fine IMHO. What do you think a broker does for a living, anyway? Buys from Peter to sell to Paul. Why should it be unethical not to disclose your cut? You're entitled to it. If you tell him, all you're doing is tempting him to find a way to cut out the middleman.

ETA: I guess it depends how you say it. If you say "this is what I can get you" or "this is what I'm paying", that's fine. But if you say "this is what they are worth"... could be unethical. See the difference?

Oh, and...

B offers to help sell his miles. A agrees. B sells miles to C for 2cpm. B pays A 1.9cpm. B keeps difference.

FTFY. ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 03:56:12 PM
@HelpMe and Moishebatchy

Your opinion would remain the same even in spite of the fact that no mention of the word "broker" nor "commission" was uttered?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
@HelpMe and Moishebatchy

Your opinion would remain the same even in spite of the fact that no mention of the word "broker" nor "commission" was uttered?
+1, don't think he shouldn't take a cut and I don't think that he needs to disclose his cut. But don't make like you are doing someone a favor and then profit off of it
Or say I'll buy your miles from you. Then no need to disclose anything. But to say I'll help you sell your miles and then take a cut is just wrong
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 04, 2012, 04:13:32 PM
@HelpMe and Moishebatchy

Your opinion would remain the same even in spite of the fact that no mention of the word "broker" nor "commission" was uttered?
Yes, absolutely. If I buy a case of soda cans from the makolet with the intention of selling them in yeshiva for a profit, is it unethical of me to tell the makolet owner that I'm "making money off of him"? I don't think so.

Look, mitzad the buyer, he may feel like an idiot if he ever finds out, but mitzad the seller, I don't think he's doing anything unfair. Although, this is only if...

But don't make like you are doing someone a favor and then profit off of it

If you clearly tell him "I will buy your points for X" with no emotion, no details, then you're good; but if you act all buddy-buddy as if you're doing him a favor, then no, you're not being ethical at all.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 04:18:29 PM
See my edit to previous comment. Totally agree if you say I'll buy your miles from you. But if you say I'll help you sell your miles, that's something else
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 04:22:44 PM
Thanks for the opinions.

Slightly different scenario:

Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles (with no mention of commission, brokerage, or favor). A agrees. B sells (or enters tentative deal to sell) miles to C for 2cpm. B offers to buy A's miles for 1.9cpm.

A agrees to sell at 1.9cpm.

B keeps difference.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 04:39:18 PM
Thanks for the opinions.

Slightly different scenario:

Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles (with no mention of commission, brokerage, or favor). A agrees. B sells (or enters tentative deal to sell) miles to C for 2cpm. B offers to buy A's miles for 1.9cpm.

A agrees to sell at 1.9cpm.

B keeps difference.

Discuss.
Not sure what is different but same answer. So are you going to buy my miles for 1.9?  ;D
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 04:48:36 PM
Thanks for the opinions.

Slightly different scenario:

Person B overhears person A, who knows nothing of going rates, discussing wanting to offload his miles.

B offers to help sell his miles (with no mention of commission, brokerage, or favor). A agrees. B sells (or enters tentative deal to sell) miles to C for 2cpm. B offers to buy A's miles for 1.9cpm.

A agrees to sell at 1.9cpm.

B keeps difference.

Discuss.
As long as B presents as he is buying A 's miles and not a shliach (agent) to sell his miles I think it's fine
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Name Changed on October 04, 2012, 05:24:28 PM
At a 0.1 price difference you aren't ripping him off, that's the typical broker cut.

Is your question that in any case when you sell someone else's item and don't tell them if you are brokering or doing them a favor - what to tell them?

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on October 04, 2012, 05:33:48 PM
At a 0.1 price difference you aren't ripping him off, that's the typical broker cut.
How does that work?

 If his miles are "worth" 1.5, and I offer him 1.1 and then sell them for 1.2 , I'm not ripping him off?!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 05:35:20 PM
At a 0.1 price difference you aren't ripping him off, that's the typical broker cut.

Is your question that in any case when you sell someone else's item and don't tell them if you are brokering or doing them a favor - what to tell them?

0.1 was an example. What if it was .02? .03? etc

Well, I guess that's could be another question: Is one required to be clear, or is it assumed that if Person B is selling something for Person A that there will be a commission?

How does that work?

 If his miles are "worth" 1.5, and I offer him 1.1 and then sell them for 1.2 , I'm not ripping him off?!

"worth" is a pretty ambiguous term. How are you using it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on October 04, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
"worth" is a pretty ambiguous term. How are you using it?
That's what I was trying to be bring out  :)

Is NC saying that it all boils down what person A is able* to get for their miles? (That would determine the "worth" which would allow you to figure out how much 0.1 extra would be)

*Meaning,  depending on what they know about the mileage industry  ;) and how easy/hard it is for them to find higher paying brokers, etc. . .
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:07:42 PM
Well, I guess that's could be another question: Is one required to be clear, or is it assumed that if Person B is selling something for Person A that there will be a commission?
If asked you should tell them the amount you are charging.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 06:15:55 PM
If asked you should tell them the amount you are charging.

But IYO, one needn't affirmatively say so outright?

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 04, 2012, 06:25:19 PM
If asked you should tell them the amount you are charging.

Disagree.

It's one thing to argue whether the person should know or not IF you are making money. But even if they do, it's none of their business how much. Do you ask your grocer how much he's making on that bag of sugar you're buying?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:26:23 PM
But IYO, one needn't affirmatively say so outright?
I do deals with members all the time. Some members there is no commission involved at all. Some deals commission is involved and disclosed. Other deals commission is in involved and not disclosed. I am always up front when asked and give a straight answer. I believe I am being ethical, honest and it has worked for many years.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:28:43 PM
But even if they do, it's none of their business how much. Do you ask your grocer how much he's making on that bag of sugar you're buying?
If the sugar was 1k/pound then yes I would ask. Would you buy a car without trying to find what the dealers cost was?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 04, 2012, 06:30:22 PM
Whom are you guys trying to please here? Your hearts? Your ego?
I simply don't get it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:36:31 PM
I simply don't get it.
Some day you might understand young grasshopper.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 06:39:37 PM
Some day you might understand young grasshopper.
I doubt it.
There is a din of V'asisa hayashar v i'hatov. A person has achiyuv to be honest and ethical. If you don't understand that I would recommend people to stay as far away from you as possible.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 04, 2012, 06:42:50 PM
I'm too greedy to get it.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:43:13 PM
There is a din of V'asisa hayashar v i'hatov. A person has achiyuv to be honest and ethical. If you don't understand that I would recommend people to stay as far away from you as possible.
Anyone want to help this poor soul out with a translation?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 06:43:45 PM
I'm too greedy to get it.
Hopefully that will pass some day.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 06:57:11 PM
Anyone want to help this poor soul out with a translation?

"A person has to do the thing that is straight (ethical?) and good."
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 07:05:13 PM
So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2012, 07:08:33 PM
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2012, 07:09:58 PM
So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
Definitely agree with part b
A I think depends on how it's formulated. If B is selling A's miles (and not buying A's miles and reselling) then I don't see how B could not disclose he is taking something.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 04, 2012, 07:12:57 PM
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
I had a feeling this one was coming. Now we are getting into the area if one is taking advantage of another person.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 05, 2012, 07:50:06 AM
Another hypothetical:

Person A knows absolutely nothing with regard to market rates for miles.

Is there an ethical floor under which Person B should not buy A's miles due to his lack of familiarity?

If so, how much? Why?
Yes, but it's hard to say exactly what the amount is.

I'm sure we've all heard the stories of the shysters who get people signed up for the Amex Plat (netting them a referral bonus), give them a paltry 1 cpp for the ensuing MR, and keep the $200 airline credits. And I'm sure we can all agree that is highly unethical, right?

So we know there is a line - the problem is, where do we draw it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 05, 2012, 11:08:35 AM
As devil's advocate, why would even that be "highly unethical?"

These people created value where none existed before.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Name Changed on October 05, 2012, 02:35:10 PM
As devil's advocate, why would even that be "highly unethical?"

These people created value where none existed before.
Its not that value is created, there always was that potential value, but it was just not know to them...

If like the typical Arab Shuck, where they try to sell you something worth pennies for a high cost. (this is just the opposite) but they are fooling you to believe that giving you its true value.

(if they are offering you a service, thats a whole different story)

So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
I actually agree with this.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 05, 2012, 02:42:37 PM
Its not that value is created, there always was that potential value, but it was just not know to them...

If like the typical Arab Shuck, where they try to sell you something worth pennies for a high cost. (this is just the opposite) but they are fooling you to believe that giving you its true value.

(if they are offering you a service, thats a whole different story)

Isn't that (one of) the definitions of value?

If you didn't know that you could turn your garden gnome's into gold, and I came and did it for you in exchange for half the price of the gold, that's not creating value?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on October 05, 2012, 02:44:30 PM
Isn't that (one of) the definitions of value?

If you didn't know that you could turn your garden gnome's into gold, and I came and did it for you in exchange for half the price of the gold, that's not creating value?
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on October 09, 2012, 09:19:23 AM
I think it is a shaila of ona'a or mekach ta'os. If you are paying 1/6 less than market value without telling this uninformed person, you were oiver ona'a and lechaoira also oiver lifnei iver.

The latter would also apply with the first q of selling someone else's miles. The difference between 1.9 and 2.0 is less than 1/6 so I think it would not be ona'a. This is not based on how much you are personally getting for the miles, rather market value It may be that points/miles have no defineable market value, like karka.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on October 09, 2012, 09:36:54 AM
Going back to the previous issue, if Amex is insuring it like a wager, not for actual cost of refurbishment, it seems that you can take the money from them. Regarding the manufacturer replacing the item, what do they say about it?

About ethics and halacha, you can use the paradigm of din and lifnim mishuras hadin. Both of these are sourced in the Torah.

Here is a good link aish (http://www.aish.com/ci/be/48907612.html)

An example of "ethics" unaligned with Torah, ... I do not recall, I think examples are brought by the Dubner Maggid in Mishpatim, need to research ...

The Sages are more relayers of G-d's wisdom than his representatives. The can not condone or forgive on His behalf.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on October 09, 2012, 10:23:06 PM
I think it is a shaila of ona'a or mekach ta'os. If you are paying 1/6 less than market value without telling this uninformed person, you were oiver ona'a and lechaoira also oiver lifnei iver.

The latter would also apply with the first q of selling someone else's miles. The difference between 1.9 and 2.0 is less than 1/6 so I think it would not be ona'a. This is not based on how much you are personally getting for the miles, rather market value It may be that points/miles have no defineable market value, like karka.
are your thoughts based on something you know or something you dont know. to me it sounds like the later

The Sages are more relayers of G-d's wisdom than his representatives. The can not condone or forgive on His behalf.
true
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on October 09, 2012, 10:25:36 PM
So, if I'm understanding the consensus:

- If person B's role was not made clear (friend/gratis vs. broker), as long as Person A has not been misled to believe B's role is that of friend, Person B can charge commission even without disclosing.

- If asked by Person A, B should disclose that (not specifically how much) he's making a commission.

Anyone disagree?
i didnt read your case carefully but there is somthing called leskuni shedartich velo lavasi which may apply in your case and therefore you may have to return the diff. its very common with real estate that the buyer would agree to pay more than what the sellers lowest price and the agent tells the seller i will get the buyer to pay more if we split the gains (instesd of taking the reg agents percent on the diff)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on October 10, 2012, 08:43:05 AM
are your thoughts based on something you know or something you dont know. to me it sounds like the later

IDK, one of those.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: myb821 on October 17, 2012, 04:20:21 PM
my wife purchased three pairs of shoes from amazon using the 20% code just over a month ago. She wanted to return two pairs and i forgot to return them untill a few days after the thirty days allowed. I contacted amex return protection and opened a claim one pair was 32.99 and one was 62.62 i got two emails from them cause i guess they opened up a separate case for each pair. one said they closed the case and credited 62.62 the other said the closed the case and credited 94.61!!! I have no idea how this happened i gave the agent all the right numbers. Do i have an obligation to call amex and correct them
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ahecht37 on October 17, 2012, 04:22:04 PM
my wife purchased three pairs of shoes from amazon using the 20% code just over a month ago. She wanted to return two pairs and i forgot to return them untill a few days after the thirty days allowed. I contacted amex return protection and opened a claim one pair was 32.99 and one was 62.62 i got two emails from them cause i guess they opened up a separate case for each pair. one said they closed the case and credited 62.62 the other said the closed the case and credited 94.61!!! I have no idea how this happened i gave the agent all the right numbers. Do i have an obligation to call amex and correct them
halachicly no
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: eis517 on October 17, 2012, 04:27:50 PM
halachicly no

This thread isn't titles "is it halachik". It is about ethics, and I think ethically you should call Amex and let them know they made a mistake. They could very well just let him/her keep the money.
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on October 17, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Similar story happened to me. I called back twice and they said they would be debiting my account the difference but that never happened :)  at that point I felt I met whatever moral obligation was there
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: eis517 on October 17, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
Similar story happened to me. I called back twice and they said they would be debiting my account the difference but that never happened :)  at that point I felt I met whatever moral obligation was there
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on October 18, 2012, 07:44:34 AM
Similar story happened to me. I called back twice and they said they would be debiting my account the difference but that never happened :)  at that point I felt I met whatever moral obligation was there
Interesting question, if you are morally required to return the money that you received in error, at what point do you say "I did enough, now I can keep it"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 18, 2012, 07:46:05 AM
Interesting question, if you are morally required to return the money that you received in error, at what point do you say "I did enough, now I can keep it"?
Well in Halachah there is sometimes a concept יהא מונח עד שיבוא אליהו
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmuelb on October 18, 2012, 07:49:16 AM
If in Halacha you can keep it, I assume it is not a chiuv in the guf hamamon. But to say "I tried calling but they were closed" obviously will not assuage one's conscious.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 18, 2012, 08:03:50 AM
I hate this thread.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 18, 2012, 08:11:42 AM
So open a competing thread "Is it unethical enough" :P
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamDaMan on October 18, 2012, 10:41:52 AM
So open a competing thread "Is it unethical enough" :P
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 18, 2012, 11:07:15 AM
I hate this thread.
Do you have a specific issue or just prefer not to have to deal with your conscience :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 18, 2012, 11:42:22 AM
Do you have a specific issue or just prefer not to have to deal with your conscience :P
How can you deal with something you don't have.  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 18, 2012, 02:10:48 PM
Do you have a specific issue or just prefer not to have to deal with your conscience :P
the entire concept of ethics irritates me.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 18, 2012, 03:01:23 PM
the entire concept of ethics irritates me.
We feel your pain.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on October 23, 2012, 12:54:45 AM
getting mail and realizing they didn't cancel the stamp.  can you take the stamp off and reuse it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 01:04:31 AM
getting mail and realizing they didn't cancel the stamp.  can you take the stamp off and reuse it?

A better question: How COULD it be ethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on October 23, 2012, 01:22:42 AM
it's your responsibility to do the post office's job?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 23, 2012, 01:23:45 AM
getting mail and realizing they didn't cancel the stamp.  can you take the stamp off and reuse it?
"Whoever knowingly uses in payment of postage, any postage stamp, postal card, or stamped envelope, issued in pursuance of law, which has already been used for a like purposeó
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both[.]"

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 08:54:12 AM
it's your responsibility to do the post office's job?

Since when is that the litmus test for ethics?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 23, 2012, 10:20:26 AM
it's your responsibility to do the post office's job?
No but you might want to check the law first.  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 10:39:35 AM
No but you might want to check the law first.  ;D

Meh, I'm not convinced legal = ethical, or illegal = unethical...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on October 23, 2012, 01:45:32 PM
Since when is that the litmus test for ethics?
if the post office is not going to take steps to absolutely ensure their stamps are cancelled, then why would that burden then fall on the consumer?  Furthermore, if one sent a letter which never arrived (which has happened to most people), is he not being made whole by receiving his money back from the post office in the form of an uncancelled stamp?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 01:51:16 PM
if the post office is not going to take steps to absolutely ensure their stamps are cancelled, then why would that burden then fall on the consumer?

You need to review the definition of ethics, IMHO.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on October 23, 2012, 02:58:20 PM
You need to review the definition of ethics, IMHO.
ethics are inherently malleable as they are decided by a dynamic society so a strict definition wouldn't yield an answer.  furthermore, if someone loses something and doesn't chase after it, a la yayush (giving up hope), the assumption is they don't care enough about it and therefore it becomes hefker (ownerless).  why should this be any different?  The only argument I see is that the fact that there's a law against it means the post office is never really miya'aysh but if that's the case why bother cancelling stamps at all?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on October 23, 2012, 03:04:28 PM
ethics are inherently malleable as they are decided by a dynamic society so a strict definition wouldn't yield an answer.  furthermore, if someone loses something and doesn't chase after it, a la yayush (giving up hope), the assumption is they don't care enough about it and therefore it becomes hefker (ownerless).  why should this be any different?  The only argument I see is that the fact that there's a law against it means the post office is never really miya'aysh but if that's the case why bother cancelling stamps at all?
Because some people are not ethical and will try and reuse them?

I appreciate the definition/translation but how about this one "miya'aysh"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 03:08:46 PM
ethics are inherently malleable as they are decided by a dynamic society so a strict definition wouldn't yield an answer.  furthermore, if someone loses something and doesn't chase after it, a la yayush (giving up hope), the assumption is they don't care enough about it and therefore it becomes hefker (ownerless).  why should this be any different?  The only argument I see is that the fact that there's a law against it means the post office is never really miya'aysh but if that's the case why bother cancelling stamps at all?

I agree with your first sentence. But you're also mixing halacha into it, which I don't think this thread is for.

How about this - we take a poll from our "dynamic society":

Does anyone think reusing a stamp is ethical? [because I'm asking, I'm going to assume silence means people believe it is unethical]
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on October 23, 2012, 03:16:44 PM
[because I'm asking, I'm going to assume silence means people believe it is unethical]
just in general
(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/5966/uploadfromtaptalk134422.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/uploadfromtaptalk134422.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

:P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on October 23, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
anything for HelpMe: miya'aysh (same Hebrew root word as "yayush" above) means that the owner has given up hope of retrieving his object rendering it ownerless, thereby allowing anyone to take full possession of it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on October 23, 2012, 06:37:57 PM

How about this - we take a poll from our "dynamic society":

 [because I'm asking, I'm going to assume silence means people believe it is unethical]
But silence could also indicate that one simply don't care about ethics.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 06:41:00 PM
But silence could also indicate that one simply don't care about ethics.

My post/poll, my rules.

If you'd like to break the silence and post that you don't care about ethics, the color green, or sunflowers, be my guest. But until then, I'm going to assume you think it's unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: lfas25 on October 23, 2012, 06:53:55 PM
The bigger question is what you define as ethical, what's ethical for one person may not be for another...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2012, 06:56:01 PM
The bigger question is what you define as ethical, what's ethical for one person may not be for another...

ethics are inherently malleable as they are decided by a dynamic society so a strict definition wouldn't yield an answer.

I agree with your first sentence. But you're also mixing halacha into it, which I don't think this thread is for.

How about this - we take a poll from our "dynamic society":

Does anyone think reusing a stamp is ethical? [because I'm asking, I'm going to assume silence means people believe it is unethical]
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ReadsTheT&C on November 14, 2012, 07:06:26 PM
I'm being flown out somewhere and the organization gave me a budget for the flight.  Delta is the best flight and costs $275.  I have a $15 eCert in my skymiles account.  Is it ethical to book it, send them a receipt for $275, then cancel and rebook it at $260?
Alternatively, is it ethical to book, send them a receipt, then book it yourself using miles?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on November 14, 2012, 07:15:49 PM
Don't see why not.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on November 14, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
I'm being flown out somewhere and the organization gave me a budget for the flight.  Delta is the best flight and costs $275.  I have a $15 eCert in my skymiles account.  Is it ethical to book it, send them a receipt for $275, then cancel and rebook it at $260?
Alternatively, is it ethical to book, send them a receipt, then book it yourself using miles?
Why don't you ask them?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on November 14, 2012, 07:50:06 PM
Don't see why not.

^

@OP, not someone's opinion you want to take into account on this one...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on November 14, 2012, 09:39:42 PM
^

@OP, not someone's opinion you want to take into account on this one...
that may be true but i agree in this case
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 15, 2012, 02:50:02 AM
Paying with a voucher is no different than paying with cash, and should be fully reimbursed.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 15, 2012, 09:51:06 AM
Paying with a voucher is no different than paying with cash, and should be fully reimbursed.
Not according to US government when traveling on business for them.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2012, 11:08:38 AM
Not according to US government when traveling on business for them.
I never considered that you are a spy fir the CIA
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 15, 2012, 11:09:39 AM
I never considered that you are a spy fir the CIA
I wish!  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MEIR613 on November 26, 2012, 07:21:40 PM
If I got targted 60k hilton after 750 spend. It expired 3 days before I applied for 50k after 1k spend. I sm them for the 60k after 750. Right now I only spent 750 and I am waiting for them to get back to me (faxed in the offer). So if they honor it I might get double dipped. Should I spend now the extra 250 so it wont double dip or just enjoy?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 26, 2012, 07:31:10 PM
Just enjoy the unethical thing you are going to pull off.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MEIR613 on November 26, 2012, 07:35:25 PM
Just enjoy the unethical thing you are going to pull off.

I was just in a very ethical mood ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: U-no-me! on November 26, 2012, 07:38:55 PM
Just enjoy the unethical thing you are going to pull off.

Why the hate lately?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 26, 2012, 07:40:00 PM
Why the hate lately?
What hate? I gave an honest reply. Would you rather I lie?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on November 26, 2012, 09:20:21 PM
What hate? I gave an honest reply. Would you rather I lie?
are you asking if that would be ethical? ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MosheP on November 29, 2012, 11:06:51 AM
Is it ethical?

I called a company to complain about not receiving a credit for a return that I thought I made through UPS. They issued a credit for me after some back and forth. I checked my trunk the next day and found the return. I was so positive I had returned the item 3 weeks before. Should I send it in anyways? Can I keep it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on November 29, 2012, 11:16:20 AM
Is it ethical?

I called a company to complain about not receiving a credit for a return that I thought I made through UPS. They issued a credit for me after some back and forth. I checked my trunk the next day and found the return. I was so positive I had returned the item 3 weeks before. Should I send it in anyways? Can I keep it?

How would this not be stealing?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MosheP on November 29, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
How would this not be stealing?

I think t might be, hence the question.

Perhaps sending it back will just result in it getting "lost" in a warehouse somewhere due to the refund being credited and the case closed. Just wanted to hear others opinions.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on November 29, 2012, 11:38:39 AM
How would this not be stealing?
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on November 29, 2012, 11:52:42 AM
Is it ethical?

I called a company to complain about not receiving a credit for a return that I thought I made through UPS. They issued a credit for me after some back and forth. I checked my trunk the next day and found the return. I was so positive I had returned the item 3 weeks before. Should I send it in anyways? Can I keep it?
They gave you credit based on the fact that you returned it. If that 'fact' wasn't true, then what's the question??
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on November 29, 2012, 12:45:57 PM
Is it ethical?

I called a company to complain about not receiving a credit for a return that I thought I made through UPS. They issued a credit for me after some back and forth. I checked my trunk the next day and found the return. I was so positive I had returned the item 3 weeks before. Should I send it in anyways? Can I keep it?

PUTPAC. TWTCSIN. :D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MosheP on November 29, 2012, 03:28:14 PM
How would this not be stealing?

+1

They gave you credit based on the fact that you returned it. If that 'fact' wasn't true, then what's the question??

You guys are right. I will return the shoes.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on November 29, 2012, 03:29:24 PM
You guys are right. I will return the shoes.

Did you...

PUTPAC. TWTCSIN. :D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 29, 2012, 04:17:21 PM
PUTPAC. TWTCSIN. :D
+1
Similar thing happened to us (We didn't get a Lands End order so they sent out a new one. A day later we got the first one) we called and they told us to keep both.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on November 29, 2012, 04:36:03 PM
it happens a lot when i order from snapfish the real thing is they say keep it bec do u think we want ur pix lol
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 29, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
it happens a lot when i order from snapfish the real thing is they say keep it bec do u think we want ur pix lol
That explains snapfish not lands end. It's probably just too much of a hassle for them to have it returned (and at the end of the day was does it really cost them?)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on November 29, 2012, 05:27:38 PM
That explains snapfish not lands end. It's probably just too much of a hassle for them to have it returned (and at the end of the day was does it really cost them?)

Do you  have any idea how long and hard some poor child in a Vietnamese sweatshop worked on it??!! >:(
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamDaMan on November 29, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
TWTCSIN
someone care to explain?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on November 29, 2012, 06:43:24 PM
someone care to explain?

Sure, I'll search that for ya... standby.

ETA:

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10531.msg127893#msg127893

ETA (2):

And here: http://wiki.dansdeals.com/Acronyms
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on November 29, 2012, 06:48:08 PM
Sure, I'll search that for ya... standby.

ETA:

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10531.msg127893#msg127893

ETA (2):

And here: http://wiki.dansdeals.com/Acronyms

That should be stickied
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamDaMan on November 29, 2012, 06:55:22 PM
Sure, I'll search that for ya... standby.

ETA:

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10531.msg127893#msg127893

ETA (2):

And here: http://wiki.dansdeals.com/Acronyms
tnx so much!


That should be stickied
definitely
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 29, 2012, 07:02:24 PM
Is stealing unethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on November 29, 2012, 07:04:21 PM
Is stealing unethical?

 :o :o

No...why would you think it is?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on November 29, 2012, 07:07:25 PM
Is stealing unethical?
Depends from who.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Saver2000 on November 29, 2012, 07:10:19 PM
Depends from who.
???
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on November 29, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
???

Perhaps stealing something from someone who stole it from you?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on November 29, 2012, 07:16:18 PM
Perhaps stealing something from someone who stole it from you?

Why would that be called stealing?

Oh you mean something else? not the item they stole?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on November 29, 2012, 07:18:32 PM
What about when person at register at store gave you too much change..that depends on which store I guess...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on November 29, 2012, 07:27:13 PM
Perhaps stealing something from someone who stole it from you?
That is definitely one way. My point was hardly anything is clearly immoral no matter what... Another example I'd argue is stealing from the Taliban, (or from the 1% :P jks)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 29, 2012, 07:37:28 PM
How about taking a pen or paper clip from work? Stealing? Unethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on November 29, 2012, 07:43:01 PM
How about taking a pen or paper clip from work? Stealing? Unethical?

Of course. (Though in some cases, like when an employee has permission to work at home, there's an exception.)

Businesses even have to account for this phenomenon on their balance sheets. I forget what it's called.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on November 29, 2012, 07:46:41 PM
Businesses even have to account for this phenomenon on their balance sheets. I forget what it's called.
Pilferage?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on November 29, 2012, 07:50:44 PM
Pilferage?  :)

Ding ding ding.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on November 29, 2012, 10:02:16 PM
+1
Similar thing happened to us (We didn't get a Lands End order so they sent out a new one. A day later we got the first one) we called and they told us to keep both.
its ok to call if the first time you didnt steal but the op stole by getting a refund based on a lie (albeit unintentional)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2012, 11:17:32 AM
To buy a knockoff?
(where there are copyright infringement issues)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 04, 2012, 11:19:36 AM
To buy a knockoff?
(where there are copyright infringement issues)

That's a tough one.

That is, if you're solely asking on ethical, and not legal. Legality should be pretty clear.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2012, 11:23:33 AM
That's a tough one.

That is, if you're solely asking on ethical, and not legal. Legality should be pretty clear.
Is it prohibited legally to buy (not just sell)?
(left out a question mark and poorly formulated it as a question, oops)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on December 04, 2012, 12:03:34 PM
Formula companies send out rebate checks if you subscribe to their mailing list (similac, enfamil, gerber) I once used 4 rebate checks to buy baby formula because there was a good sale on the formula. Then I found it cheaper somewhere else and returned the formula. the store (Target) gave me the amount of the rebate checks in cash because the formula company still pays them for the rebate. I have tons more rebate checks from other companies. All I'll need to do is buy formula with the rebate check and return it to receive the rebate back in cash.  The first time I did it it was unintentional. It feels very unethical to do this as I would be "stealing" from the formula company...
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on December 04, 2012, 12:05:22 PM
It's prohibited legally to buy (not just sell)?
(left out a question mark, oops)
Dina d'malchuscha dina, I think it is unethical and assur if its illegal.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 04, 2012, 12:20:30 PM
Is it prohibited legally to buy (not just sell)?
(left out a question mark and poorly formulated it as a question, oops)

Honestly, I'm not as familiar with IP law as I'd like to be.

But from what I can recall, it's not illegal to buy in the vast majority of countries, only to sell.

As I said, it's a tough ethical question...
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2012, 12:21:43 PM
Honestly, I'm not as familiar with IP law as I'd like to be.

But from what I can recall, it's not illegal to buy in the vast majority of countries, only to sell.

As I said, it's a tough ethical question...
When you said legally it should be clear that meant it's ok?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: moko on December 04, 2012, 12:56:24 PM
Formula companies send out rebate checks if you subscribe to their mailing list (similac, enfamil, gerber) I once used 4 rebate checks to buy baby formula because there was a good sale on the formula. Then I found it cheaper somewhere else and returned the formula. the store (Target) gave me the amount of the rebate checks in cash because the formula company still pays them for the rebate. I have tons more rebate checks from other companies. All I'll need to do is buy formula with the rebate check and return it to receive the rebate back in cash.  The first time I did it it was unintentional. It feels very unethical to do this as I would be "stealing" from the formula company...
what about those who just deposit them in their accts (yes it works) :o
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 04, 2012, 01:27:16 PM
When you said legally it should be clear that meant it's ok?

Say wha?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2012, 01:29:13 PM
Say wha?

That's a tough one.

That is, if you're solely asking on ethical, and not legal. Legality should be pretty clear.

When you said legality should be pretty clear you meant that it is legal?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 04, 2012, 02:45:11 PM


Ah, like I said:

from what I can recall, it's not illegal to buy in the vast majority of countries, only to sell.

ETA:

Seems I was right: http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/the-legality-of-buying-knockoffs/
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on December 04, 2012, 03:40:48 PM
what about those who just deposit them in their accts (yes it works) :o
You deposit them in your bank account as a check?!?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on December 04, 2012, 07:31:43 PM
Ah, like I said:

ETA:

Seems I was right: http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/the-legality-of-buying-knockoffs/


Quote
So why is buying counterfeit goods generally considered O.K. by the law? First, Ms. Scafidi said, the notion of arresting or fining tourists for buying those goods (say on Canal Street) is not an attractive proposition for the tourism industry.

Second, itís difficult to distinguish between consumers who know what they are doing when they are buying counterfeits and those who donít and think they are buying the real thing. ďItís hard to prove people knew it was a counterfeit,Ē said Chris Sprigman, an intellectual property law professor at the University of Virginia School of Law who has written on copyright issues for the Freakonomics blog.
Strange svaros, particularly the second one. Because we can't distinguish therefore allow it even intentionally?
And the first one, does it hurt tourism in France? And we have plenty of laws which aren't enforced.
There has got to be a better hesber
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: henche on January 08, 2013, 04:32:47 PM
January term is 3 weeks long. The textbook costs $215.

The book store allows returns for only 3 days, so can't buy and return. But.... I paid with Amex. oh.

It gets better. The book store gives you a rebate at the end of the year because it is a cooperative, and you get some percentage of your spending back depending on their profits. Typically about 8%. So free book for the term, and free $17.

Is it ethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: myb821 on January 08, 2013, 04:38:42 PM
January term is 3 weeks long. The textbook costs $215.

The book store allows returns for only 3 days, so can't buy and return. But.... I paid with Amex. oh.

It gets better. The book store gives you a rebate at the end of the year because it is a cooperative, and you get some percentage of your spending back depending on their profits. Typically about 8%. So free book for the term, and free $17.

Is it ethical?
amex will only take like new products as part of their return protection
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2013, 04:39:21 PM
So he can be very careful...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: henche on January 08, 2013, 04:39:35 PM
no prob. it's a textbook. you read from it, that's all.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 08, 2013, 05:07:42 PM
January term is 3 weeks long. The textbook costs $215.

The book store allows returns for only 3 days, so can't buy and return. But.... I paid with Amex. oh.

It gets better. The book store gives you a rebate at the end of the year because it is a cooperative, and you get some percentage of your spending back depending on their profits. Typically about 8%. So free book for the term, and free $17.

Is it ethical?

http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/5907

Quote
Items excluded for return to Starwood AMEX, but not excluded by Chase Sapphire:
-Watches
-Refurbished items
-Cellular phones
-Compact discs, digital video discs, video console games.
-Maps
-Books
-Tickets of any kind.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: henche on January 08, 2013, 05:26:39 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/5907

Oh. thanks.
The exclusions are here https://www.americanexpress.com/us/content/pdf/card-benefits/return-protection/Return_Protection.pdf
and are:
"Items not eligible for a refund are: animals and living plants; one-of-a-kind items (including antiques, artwork, and furs); limited edition items; going-out-of-business sale items; consumable or perishable items with limited life spans (such as perfume, light bulbs, non-rechargeable batteries); jewelry (including, but not limited to, loose gems, precious stones, metals, and pearls); watches; services and additional costs (such as installation charges, warranties, shipping, or memberships); rare and precious coins; used, altered, rebuilt and refurbished items; custom-built items, cellular phones; pagers; compact discs; digital video discs; mini discs; audiotapes; videotapes; computer software; firmware (such as console games, Nintendo, etc.); maps; books of any kind; health care items (such as blood pressure machines and diabetes equipment); formal wear; tickets of any kind; motorized vehicles (such as cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats, or airplanes) and their parts; land and buildings; firearms; ammunition; negotiable instruments (such as promissory notes, stamps and travelers checks); cash and its equivalent; and items permanently affixed to home, office, vehicles, etc., (such as garage door openers, car alarms)."

See, and I was thinking that if I accidentally damaged it, I could file a purchase protection claim.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 08, 2013, 05:33:45 PM
A restaurant chain has a loyalty club that you can join, for a small fee. Among the benefits, they offer a "birthday gift": during the entire month of your birthday, you receive a certain benefit (such as %10 discount, free dessert, or whatever). Your birthday is, say, in April; but upon making a quick calculation, you determine that you would get more value if your birthday was, say, in October. So you put down October 15 as your birthday. Is it ethical?

Arguments for: the restaurant chain really doesn't care when you were actually born; their marketing department bean counters have determined that it's a good idea to offer this benefit for one month of the year, and "your birth month" sounds way cooler than "pick a random month".

Arguments against: it is, after all, not your birthday...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 08, 2013, 07:17:57 PM
Ethically? Problematic. You are, after all, lying. Not much of a question there.

But, I'm not sure it really makes any difference as you point out.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: awardticket on January 08, 2013, 10:43:43 PM
Same story would be with lying for bday etc when checking into hotels.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 08, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
Same story would be with lying for bday etc when checking into hotels.
Not really. That one is probably more clear cut (for the club you can only have one birthday, for the hotel you are requesting it extra times)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Fan of Dan on January 08, 2013, 11:02:41 PM
Not really. That one is probably more clear cut (for the club you can only have one birthday, for the hotel you are requesting it extra times)
What if you go to a certain hotel only once per year?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Menucha on January 09, 2013, 08:28:00 AM
see "Aseres Hadibros". sheker. ethical?

as an added bonus: Chilul Hashem...

So heart warming to see how "our yidden" are looking to legitimate "kol davar ra"...

oy..

thats how it starts. next is some headlines on the NY Times... so much for "ethical". go for it. just please do not appeal in my shul for "Pidyon Shvuyim for legal help". we have had it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 09, 2013, 08:33:31 AM
I happen to somewhat agree with you but when you talk like that no one is going to hear you
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Menucha on January 09, 2013, 08:42:28 AM
Ergel, recently there was a thread, were I discussed someone suggesting violating customs laws in Israel. Some shtreimel owner and Co. was making fun of honesty. what a low behavior.

then someone posted a link for frum ppl caught with iphones. can we stop NOW this chilul hashem, and behave as law abiding and contributing members of society?

are we growing on our forums the next NY Times Japan/ W.....man headline, or the next appeal for legal assistance for "nebach, they did not know it was illegal"?

and when you post such ideas, you are responsible for somewhat not as smart who may follow them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 09, 2013, 08:50:13 AM
Ergel, recently there was a thread, were I discussed someone suggesting violating customs laws in Israel. Some shtreimel owner and Co. was making fun of honesty. what a low behavior.

then someone posted a link for frum ppl caught with iphones. can we stop NOW this chilul hashem, and behave as law abiding and contributing members of society?

are we growing on our forums the next NY Times Japan/ W.....man headline, or the next appeal for legal assistance for "nebach, they did not know it was illegal"?

and when you post such ideas, you are responsible for somewhat not as smart who may follow them.
Again, I mostly agree with you. But if you want anyone to hear you, oreven have a conversation with you, talking like an angry crazy man won't help
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Fan of Dan on January 09, 2013, 09:20:16 AM
Again, I mostly agree with you. But if you want anyone to hear you, oreven have a conversation with you, talking like an angry crazy man won't help
+ 1 I completely agree with that
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 12:41:13 PM
A restaurant chain has a loyalty club that you can join, for a small fee. Among the benefits, they offer a "birthday gift": during the entire month of your birthday, you receive a certain benefit (such as %10 discount, free dessert, or whatever). Your birthday is, say, in April; but upon making a quick calculation, you determine that you would get more value if your birthday was, say, in October. So you put down October 15 as your birthday. Is it ethical?

Arguments for: the restaurant chain really doesn't care when you were actually born; their marketing department bean counters have determined that it's a good idea to offer this benefit for one month of the year, and "your birth month" sounds way cooler than "pick a random month".

Arguments against: it is, after all, not your birthday...

According to the Rogatchover every day/min/sec the world is being recreated, so in essence every second is your birthday..

If you argue with me it means you are implying the Rogatchover is not ethical so be careful! (before you get too worked up about this I am not serious about this last line)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
According to the Rogatchover every day/min/sec the world is being recreated, so in essence every second is your birthday..

If you argue with me it means you are implying the Rogatchover is not ethical so be careful! (before you get too worked up about this I am not serious about this last line)
Sorry for the OT but I have to ask. You believe the Rogatchover is the source of that concept? Or just quoting a gadol who holds that?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 12:48:04 PM
Sorry for the OT but I have to ask. You believe the Rogatchover is the source of that concept? Or just quoting a gadol who holds that?
Looking for the source will post when I find it.


Regardless it also says in Tanya, see here for more on this http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112685/jewish/G-d-and-Nature.htm

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Menucha on January 09, 2013, 12:57:05 PM
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 12:58:03 PM
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.
lol
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 01:09:19 PM
ask the Rogichover and your other Rabbis if the theory works to justify Gezel, sheker etc, and let us know what they say, Beshem Omram.
I am not sure how gezel/sheker/misah.. would be able to use this, it only applies to events which are set by a date since that date keeps happening over and over every at each second. gezel et al would keep happening every second too so it doesn't help...

But if you are really desperate and need a heter for gezel/sheker.. PM me with a price and contact info and I will match you up with a local Rabbi in your area, operators are standing by.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
I am not sure how gezel/sheker/misah.. would be able to use this, it only applies to events which are set by a date since that date keeps happening over and over every at each second. gezel et al would keep happening every second too so it doesn't help...

But if you are really desperate and need a heter for gezel/sheker.. PM me with a price and contact info and I will match you up with a local Rabbi in your area, operators are standing by.
You totally missed the boat. She was saying that if you can justify lying because the world is being created a new every moment so every moment is your birthday, then you can also steal something because it isn't the same object it was a moment before you stole it, hence there is no problem of gezel.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 01:17:37 PM
You totally missed the boat. She was saying that if you can justify lying because the world is being created a new every moment so every moment is your birthday, then you can also steal something because it isn't the same object it was a moment before you stole it, hence there is no problem of gezel.
Not so because at the same second it is also that persons object and at no time was it legitimately yours, it may have been hefker during the time but I doubt you have enough time to make a kinyan. The only thing that happened was that you stole it every second.

A birthday on the other hand is much different, "today" was and is actually your birthday.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 01:32:36 PM
Not so because at the same second it is also that persons object and at no time was it legitimately yours, it may have been hefker during the time but I doubt you have enough time to make a kinyan. The only thing that happened was that you stole it every second.

A birthday on the other hand is much different, "today" was and is actually your birthday.


Really not interested in getting into a philosophical debate on a silly comment by both sides, but your argument about birthdays disregards the idea of continuity in the world. The accepted idea of birth is when you come out of your mothers whom. For your argument to make sense you'd have to assume that this aspect is disregarded because you are a new person every moment hence a new birth, which disregards the fact that if you are the same person who was born say 10 years ago then you only have one time of birth, in essence it seems your argument says you are a completely new person.

Now keeping that argument in mind. Every moment an object is created a new and there is no real way to retain ownership over anything being that you'd have to make an active kinyan every moment for it to be yours, 1. Mitzad you not being the same person and 2. mitzad the object not being the same thing it was when you acquired it.

So for obvious reasons this argument doesn't coincide well with halacha and true everything is being created every moment, yet there is a continuity throughout. Which means you only have one real birthday and if you say otherwise it is a lie, and an object is owned by the same person even if it isn't the same thing as when he acquired it.

(Hope this made some sense, and I'd like to know if this is what Menucha was thinking)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 01:50:57 PM
Really not interested in getting into a philosophical debate on a silly comment by both sides, but your argument about birthdays disregards the idea of continuity in the world. The accepted idea of birth is when you come out of your mothers whom. For your argument to make sense you'd have to assume that this aspect is disregarded because you are a new person every moment hence a new birth, which disregards the fact that if you are the same person who was born say 10 years ago then you only have one time of birth, in essence it seems your argument says you are a completely new person.

Now keeping that argument in mind. Every moment an object is created a new and there is no real way to retain ownership over anything being that you'd have to make an active kinyan every moment for it to be yours, 1. Mitzad you not being the same person and 2. mitzad the object not being the same thing it was when you acquired it.

So for obvious reasons this argument doesn't coincide well with halacha and true everything is being created every moment, yet there is a continuity throughout. Which means you only have one real birthday and if you say otherwise it is a lie, and an object is owned by the same person even if it isn't the same thing as when he acquired it.

(Hope this made some sense, and I'd like to know if this is what Menucha was thinking)

I really do not want to continue debating this since it is taking away from my Torah learning :).. but one last time:

Object: it is being recreated, rebought, reused, restolen at every momment.

Birthday: you are being reborn and going thru each second of your life at each moment


If JJ goes to a restaurant and say "it is my birthday today", that is true, but it you said today was my "only" birthday then that is a lie.

If JJ goes into an apple store and take an Ipad off the shelf and say it is "mine" that would be a lie because the whole world is being recreated every second - the whole process keeps repeating itself, it is not an alternate world it is the same that has transpired until now it just happens over and over. so it keeps going like this: World created.. torah given.. JJ was just born! Mazal Tov!, bris, school, life.. and then walked into apple store and stole item, this is all happening at the same time at every moment.

The same goes for the object: World created.. torah give.. jj born.. jj stole ipad...

You never had access to this ipad in a state when it was not apple's, it keeps on being created and apple's possession at the same time frame that you stole it, your world and the objects world are the same world that keeps repeating itself. Apple keeps making a kniyan on it every second.

So in summery: Today is your birthday , and if you steal the object you continue to steal it over and over again.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 01:55:57 PM
I really do not want to continue debating this since it is taking away from my Torah learning :).. but one last time:

Object: it is being recreated, rebought, reused, restolen at every momment.

Birthday: you are being reborn and going thru each second of your life at each moment


If JJ goes to a restaurant and say "it is my birthday today", that is true, but it you said today was my "only" birthday then that is a lie.

If JJ goes into an apple store and take an Ipad off the shelf and say it is "mine" that would be a lie because the whole world is being recreated every second - the whole process keeps repeating itself, it is not an alternate world it is the same that has transpired until now it just happens over and over. so it keeps going like this: World created.. torah given.. JJ was just born! Mazal Tov!, bris, school, life.. and then walked into apple store and stole item, this is all happening at the same time at every moment.

The same goes for the object: World created.. torah give.. jj born.. jj stole ipad...

You never had access to this ipad in a state when it was not apple's, it keeps on being created and apple's possession at the same time frame that you stole it, your world and the objects world are the same world that keeps repeating itself. Apple keeps making a kniyan on it every second.

So in summery: Today is your birthday , and if you steal the object you continue to steal it over and over again.


OK let's make this easier. Today is not my birthday it is my creation day. If you want to argue with that I think we know the source of our disagreement.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 09, 2013, 02:19:24 PM
How do you know menucha's a she?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 02:24:56 PM
How do you know menucha's a she?
lol, I took the liberty of deciding if someone chose a username that is also a girls name then I'm going to call that user a she until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 08:03:50 PM
OK let's make this easier. Today is not my birthday it is my creation day. If you want to argue with that I think we know the source of our disagreement.
As you can clearly see in various Marei Makomos, for example the Bal Stoey Greifen of the Ish Mishpacha has had many travels of time and space and when he goes back and forth in time all the events keep repeating itself, you can learn from that sugyah to our sugyah that here too as the world gets recreated and everything keeps repeating itself, all that happened keeps happening again and that will happen happens to, so yes, you are born again at every moment, you were just ejected from your mothers womb over and over again.

Today is 2moro and is yesterday and is all time, so in essence if you were under 21 you can go to a liquor store and tell them today I turned 21.

 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 09, 2013, 08:09:01 PM
As you can clearly see in various Marei Makomos, for example the Bal Stoey Greifen of the Ish Mishpacha has had many travels of time and space and when he goes back and forth in time all the events keep repeating itself, you can learn from that sugyah to our sugyah that here too as the world gets recreated and everything keeps repeating itself, all that happened keeps happening again and that will happen happens to, so yes, you are born again at every moment, you were just ejected from your mothers womb over and over again.

Today is 2moro and is yesterday and is all time, so in essence if you were under 21 you can go to a liquor store and tell them today I turned 21.

 
I don't even know why I'm having this conversation your dead anyway. #Justsaying

ETA- (I hope Hashem takes that excuse after 120, A dead guy isn't mechuyav in  torah mitzvos so...)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 09, 2013, 08:11:20 PM
I don't even know why I'm having this conversation your dead anyway. #Justsaying
lol, funny to have a convo with a 2 month old :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 08:50:27 PM
lol, funny to have a convo with a 2 month old :)
Well you did bring the Bal Stuee Groiffen...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 10, 2013, 06:32:09 PM
see "Aseres Hadibros". sheker. ethical?

as an added bonus: Chilul Hashem...

So heart warming to see how "our yidden" are looking to legitimate "kol davar ra"...

oy..

thats how it starts. next is some headlines on the NY Times... so much for "ethical". go for it. just please do not appeal in my shul for "Pidyon Shvuyim for legal help". we have had it.


This is a secular forum. (which accidentally attracted a huge crowd of a certain culture/religion).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 10, 2013, 07:11:27 PM
What was the question?  ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: kracked dude on January 10, 2013, 08:44:59 PM
I just finished my 6 weeks free of ami magazine (thanks steven) and cancelled earlier this week. I was pleasantly surprised to find this weeks magazine on my doorstep today. I checked and I was not charged.
1) do I have to call them?
I did call them and they said yes it is cancelled but it seems I'm still on the delivery list, and if I get it again next week I should call back.
2) do I really have to call them next week if I get it again, or have I satisfied my moral obligations ?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 10:34:40 PM
I just finished my 6 weeks free of ami magazine (thanks steven) and cancelled earlier this week. I was pleasantly surprised to find this weeks magazine on my doorstep today. I checked and I was not charged.
1) do I have to call them?
I did call them and they said yes it is cancelled but it seems I'm still on the delivery list, and if I get it again next week I should call back.
2) do I really have to call them next week if I get it again, or have I satisfied my Halachic obligations ?
FTFY
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on January 10, 2013, 11:50:51 PM
I just finished my 6 weeks free of ami magazine (thanks steven) and cancelled earlier this week. I was pleasantly surprised to find this weeks magazine on my doorstep today. I checked and I was not charged.
1) do I have to call them?
I did call them and they said yes it is cancelled but it seems I'm still on the delivery list, and if I get it again next week I should call back.
2) do I really have to call them next week if I get it again, or have I satisfied my moral obligations ?
its no different than someone intentionally leaving his keys in your house, you must return it or call them and tell them to pick it up (they may tell you to keep it)
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: kracked dude on January 11, 2013, 02:17:04 AM
FTFY
I specifically stated moral as this is the ethics thread not the Halacha thread.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: kracked dude on January 11, 2013, 02:18:59 AM
its no different than someone intentionally leaving his keys in your house, you must return it or call them and tell them to pick it up (they may tell you to keep it)
Or is it like I got a envelope in the mail with $ in it and I have no idea why he sent it to me...do I have to ask if its a mistake? Why can't I assume he sent me a gift?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 02:22:51 AM
I specifically stated moral as this is the ethics thread not the Halacha thread.
Not sure why this has to keep being repeated. Ethics and religion are two different things.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 02:23:43 AM
Not sure why this has to keep being repeated. Ethics and religion are two different things.
nu-uh
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 02:24:07 AM
Or is it like I got a envelope in the mail with $ in it and I have no idea why he sent it to me...do I have to ask if its a mistake? Why can't I assume he sent me a gift?
I think should try and find out.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 02:25:29 AM
nu-uh
"Yes way" young grasshopper.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 02:26:51 AM
"Yes way" young grasshopper.
But gramps that's not what I was taught in school. (OK if you take me snowmobiling I'll agree :P)

eta- on a serious not. without religion why are there ethics. Who decides them? Ugh this argument is older than time.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 02:55:28 AM
I was taught in school that eating meat on Friday was a sin. Now it is only a sin on Fridays during Easter. Donít believe everything you are taught/told/read.

What is your view of atheist? Can they be ethical people?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 02:59:18 AM
I was taught in school that eating meat on Friday was a sin. Now it is only a sin on Fridays during Easter. Donít believe everything you are taught/told/read.

What is your view of atheist? Can they be ethical people?

Ethics is a point of view. The greatest villains of history thought they were ethical people. Do I think they were no, but that is because my ethics are based on something greater than human feelings. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 03:11:11 AM
Ethics is a point of view. The greatest villains of history thought they were ethical people. Do I think they were no, but that is because my ethics are based on something greater than human feelings.
Werenít some of these same villains thought of themselves as being religious people also?

This is not a trick or gothca question. Is it possible that something could be seen by most as ethical but against your religion? How about the opposite also.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 03:15:31 AM
Werenít some of these same villains thought of themselves as being religious people also?

This is not a trick or gothca question. Is it possible that something could be seen by most as ethical but against your religion? How about the opposite also.

This paradox is true of knowing your religion to be the one true one, and as such is the reason BELIEF is at the base of religion otherwise it is the same as villains or other religious sects. So I suppose you can restate my opinion as ethics is based on faith. (I doubt this came out right, a bit on the tired side.)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 03:18:38 AM
I get it. I think then the title of this thread should be changed knowing the make up of this forum.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 03:20:52 AM
I get it. I think then the title of this thread should be changed knowing the make up of this forum.
I am far from a spokesman for the rest of the frum world. I am sure I have a fair share of beliefs others could would consider heretical. This could be one of them for all I know. When I said before "what I was taught in school" it was a figure of speech. This I picked up on my own... (I am glad you get it though)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on January 11, 2013, 03:54:34 AM
I get it. I think then the title of this thread should be changed knowing the make up of this forum.
Even if ethics are based on religion that does not make them halacha - i.e. law.

It just means that your basis of what's considered ethical comes from a higher power, you don't get to decide what's considered ethical on your own.




-I think that's what jj was saying...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 11, 2013, 04:09:40 AM
I was taught in school that eating meat on Friday was a sin. Now it is only a sin on Fridays during Easter. Donít believe everything you are taught/told/read.

What is your view of atheist? Can they be ethical people?
an atheist cant have ethics/morals, because it would just be there opinion or a way of doing whatever they want and calling it that,
ethics/morals have to come from a higher unbiased source  :)
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 11, 2013, 04:33:52 AM
Not sure why this has to keep being repeated. Ethics and religion are two different things.
pleas explain :o ???
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 10:45:35 AM

What is your view of atheist? Can they be ethical people?
They can be ethical. I just don't know why the ___ they would be ethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 11, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
They can be ethical. I just don't know why the ___ they would be ethical.
Just because you don't believe in something does not mean you are a bad or unethical person.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on January 11, 2013, 12:12:03 PM
Just because you don't believe in something does not mean you are a bad or unethical person.

+10
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 11, 2013, 12:29:07 PM
Ethics is defined as "a system of moral principles", everyone can have their own ethics, many of us base our morals on our religion, but one can also can have ethics without religion as we learn in the Talmud: "Had the Torah not been written, we would have learned modesty from the cat and the prohibition against stealing from the ant."

In essence the name of this whole thread "is it ethical?" shows that ethics is not a set system of morals, it is up to our moral calculators to decide if it is moral or not and therefore we ask others if they feel it is ethical.

It happens to be that many western morals are based on religion, but if one is an atheist he can still subscribe to the accepted morals of this time even if they are originally from a religion.
 



Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 11, 2013, 01:23:20 PM
If you think morality is solely based on religion, I have a question:
Are all the atheists cannibals? Ever found one?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 05:29:43 PM
Just because you don't believe in something does not mean you are a bad or unethical person.
no one said "bad",BUT if you don't believe in a higher source and you can dictate your own ethics and mortals, then what and when is "bad"? ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 05:39:35 PM
If you think morality is solely based on religion, I have a question:
Are all the atheists? Ever found one?
Q#2: there are cannibals,from ......till now.
Q#1: no, but nether are any of the animals, so whats the point
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 12, 2013, 06:40:18 PM
no one said "bad",BUT if you don't believe in a higher source and you can dictate your own ethics and mortals, then what and when is "bad"? ;)
OK I will.  :)

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 06:56:42 PM
OK I will.  :)
will what??
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on January 12, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
will what??
call it bad.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 07:10:54 PM
call it bad.
"helpme" was the one that had the problem with someone calling them bad,so i clarified it for him/her,
so what are you saying?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 12, 2013, 07:22:39 PM
"helpme" was the one that had the problem with someone calling them bad,so i clarified it for him/her,
so what are you saying?
I said not believing in something does not make a person "bad" or unethical. To clarify for you if a person is unethical it makes them a "bad" person by my standards/views.

Just because you don't believe in something does not mean you are a bad or unethical person.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 07:29:26 PM
I said not believing in something does not make a person "bad" or unethical. To clarify for you if a person is unethical it makes them a "bad" person by my standards/views.
that is your opinion, and you did say  "bad or unethical"
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
and once more , what is "bad" if ethics are just a persons opinion?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 12, 2013, 07:59:09 PM
and once more , what is "bad" if ethics are just a persons opinion?
Whether a person is "bad" or "good" is just an opinion also.

It all comes back to is something ethical and most here are basing it on religion and I fully understand why. Maybe change the thread title to ďDoes your religion consider this ethicalĒ.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 12, 2013, 08:57:27 PM
Whether a person is "bad" or "good" is just an opinion also.

It all comes back to is something ethical and most here are basing it on religion and I fully understand why. Maybe change the thread title to ďDoes your religion consider this ethicalĒ.  :)
Unless you believe  in G D,
So what is this thread discussing?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 12, 2013, 09:09:02 PM
Unless you believe  in G D,
So what is this thread discussing?
That's the whole point I am making. Everyone does not believe in God. They still can decide if something is ethical or not. This thread is about ethics not religion. They are not one in the same for everyone.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 12, 2013, 09:25:09 PM
That's the whole point I am making. Everyone does not believe in God. They still can decide if something is ethical or not. This thread is about ethics not religion. They are not one in the same for everyone.

Just gonna jump in here:

What objective criteria does one (you?) use to decide whether something is ethical or not?
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on January 12, 2013, 11:07:47 PM
Or is it like I got a envelope in the mail with $ in it and I have no idea why he sent it to me
in both cases its stealing (relegion and law). not a ethical question
Why can't I assume he sent me a gift?

the same reason why when someone leaves a bike unlocked you dont assume its a gift for anyone to take
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 07:36:00 AM
Just gonna jump in here:

What objective criteria does one (you?) use to decide whether something is ethical or not?
It would be based on ones own values. I will throw this out as just an example "mercy killings". I am sure this can be viewed either way.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 13, 2013, 11:23:59 AM
It would be based on ones own values. I will throw this out as just an example "mercy killings". I am sure this can be viewed either way.

So you base your own ethics and morals on what you believe to be ethical and moral?

To take your example: One day you may think mercy killings are "ethical," so that means they're ethical. But the next day, they're unethical," so that means they're unethical.

But which is it? Ethical or unethical?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: kracked dude on January 13, 2013, 12:18:23 PM
the same reason why when someone leaves a bike unlocked you dont assume its a gift for anyone to take
I don't think you can compare the case of the bike to my case of the Ami magazine or finding a envelope of cash addressed to you in your mailbox. I'm talking about when someone knowingly and willingly puts something on my doorstep addressed to me. Why should I not assume its a gift to me? When I got married and I got gifts in the mail should I have assumed it was sent to me by mistake?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 12:36:09 PM
So you base your own ethics and morals on what you believe to be ethical and moral?
Yes but that does not mean that I always follow them.

To take your example: One day you may think mercy killings are "ethical," so that means they're ethical. But the next day, they're unethical," so that means they're unethical.
Short answer, yes. I would hope ones views on critical issues does not change by the day but can change over a lifetime.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 13, 2013, 12:40:20 PM
So forget mercy killings. So then what is to stop someone (or you) from telling themselves simple murder is ethical?

People have tremendous powers of rationalization.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
So forget mercy killings. So then what is to stop someone (or you) from telling themselves simple murder is ethical?
Nothing.

People have tremendous powers of rationalization.
Correct and we have seen this in play with using religion to justify murder.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 13, 2013, 05:22:11 PM
So then what is "moral" or "ethical" in your eyes, is meaningless, because it is in a state of constant flux, amorphous, and fluid.

What is one day, isn't the next, and isn't one day is the next.

Seems especially ripe for manipulation.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 05:28:44 PM
So then what is "moral" or "ethical" in your eyes, is meaningless, because it is in a state of constant flux, amorphous, and fluid.

What is one day, isn't the next, and isn't one day is the next.

Seems especially ripe for manipulation.
So what you're saying is that, if you don't have an objective benchmark to decide what is or isn't ethical then 'ethics' becomes a subjective thing up for personal discretion. now of course atheists will agree with that definition, while religious people will tell you that there IS an objective benchmark by which to decide. However being that no 2 religions will agree on that benchmark (and even within religions you will find many differences) hence the question 'is it ethical' remains subjective and up for discussion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 05:31:35 PM
So then what is "moral" or "ethical" in your eyes, is meaningless, because it is in a state of constant flux, amorphous, and fluid.

What is one day, isn't the next, and isn't one day is the next.

Seems especially ripe for manipulation.
I would hope ones views on critical issues does not change by the day but can change over a lifetime.
A lot of things are ripe for manipulation. Religions have been manipulated for centuries.
In your profession there is a code of ethics? Havenít some manipulated these at different times?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 13, 2013, 06:26:48 PM
why not do some deep internal calculations,if one doesn't have a strong foundation before discussing these type of things,
then one can end up being defined by others and not by what that person believes is "ethical".

and anyway, whats the point of discussing  ethics outside of religion?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 06:47:13 PM
and anyway, whats the point of discussing  ethics outside of religion?
Because for some the two have nothing to do with each other. Can a non-religious person discuss ethics?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
...and a round and around we go... ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 06:58:09 PM
...and a round and around we go... ::)
That is what happens when religion is involved.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 13, 2013, 07:19:50 PM
That is what happens when religion is involved.  ;)
-10
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 13, 2013, 07:20:10 PM
...and a round and around we go... ::)
+10
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: az on January 13, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
i am done ,good luck
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
i am done ,good luck
Same here but I will leave you with something to ponder.  ;)

"Nor should one identify ethics with religion. Most religions, of course, advocate high ethical standards. Yet if ethics were confined to religion, then ethics would apply only to religious people. But ethics applies as much to the behavior of the atheist as to that of the saint. Religion can set high ethical standards and can provide intense motivations for ethical behavior. Ethics, however, cannot be confined to religion nor is it the same as religion."
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 13, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
I've tuned out of this thread for quite some time now. Someone please poke me when you guys finally ditch the philosophy, and the next story/scenario comes up for discussion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 10:35:59 AM
Same here but I will leave you with something to ponder.  ;)

"Nor should one identify ethics with religion. Most religions, of course, advocate high ethical standards. Yet if ethics were confined to religion, then ethics would apply only to religious people. But ethics applies as much to the behavior of the atheist as to that of the saint. Religion can set high ethical standards and can provide intense motivations for ethical behavior. Ethics, however, cannot be confined to religion nor is it the same as religion."

That still doesn't answer my sole qualm with "non-religious based" ethics, namely, that they can change at the whim of the manipulator interpreter.

Under your interpretation, I can never call YOU unethical, because, presumably, you are acting ethically according to whatever definition/meaning you ascribe to the term.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2013, 12:52:28 PM
I cannot believe you are still having this conversation. I thought both of you were smarter than that
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Yeki89 on January 14, 2013, 12:53:37 PM
I cannot believe you are still having this conversation. I thought both of you were smarter than that
ROFL
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 12:56:10 PM
I cannot believe you are still having this conversation. I thought both of you were smarter than that
No way am I going to respond now.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 01:41:33 PM
I cannot believe you are still having this conversation. I thought both of you were smarter than that

 ???

If this discussion is below your standard, no one is forcing you to read it, let alone comment.

This is a rather tricky topic--a topic about which I am curious to hear a perspective that perhaps differs from my own.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2013, 01:43:06 PM
???

If this discussion is below your standard, no one is forcing you to read it, let alone comment.

This is a rather tricky topic--a topic about which I am curious to hear a perspective that perhaps differs from my own.
Not below my standard. Just seems a little bit silly to go round and round in circles over and over again when it's clear neither of you are willing to give an inch
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 01:47:51 PM
This isn't a battle, and there are no inches to be given.

The main issue seems to simply boil down to my last substantive post on the matter, requoted below for clarity:

That still doesn't answer my sole qualm with "non-religious based" ethics, namely, that they can change at the whim of the manipulator interpreter.

Under your interpretation, I can never call YOU unethical, because, presumably, you are acting ethically according to whatever definition/meaning you ascribe to the term.

The benefit (?) of yielding to a religion as the basis for one's code of ethics is that it is a source that is both unchanging and transcendent. The same cannot be said, as far as I can tell, about a code of ethics that has its source in a single person.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2013, 01:59:52 PM
Except that help me has pointed out that religion has been used to justify murder as well
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 02:05:03 PM
Except that help me has pointed out that religion has been used to justify murder as well
...and he pointed out that religion can change day to day. EX: Eating meat on Friday.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 02:11:16 PM
Except that help me has pointed out that religion has been used to justify murder as well

How does that disprove anything I just said?

...and he pointed out that religion can change day to day. EX: Eating meat on Friday.

Right, and I think therein lies our issue.

Apparently Christianity can change, whereas Judaism does not (as I'm told).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 02:16:18 PM
Right, and I think therein lies our issue.

Apparently Christianity can change, whereas Judaism does not (as I'm told).
That interesting because I thought two Rabbi's can give you two different answers to the same ethical question. I must be mistaken.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 14, 2013, 02:37:18 PM
whereas Judaism does not (as I'm told).
???
Ever heard of Reform Jews?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on January 14, 2013, 04:46:19 PM
???
Ever heard of Reform Jews?
That doesn't mean Judaism changed, it just means some Jews have decided to stop following Judaism fully.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 06:30:02 PM
That doesn't mean Judaism changed, it just means some Jews have decided to stop following Judaism fully pretty much altogether.

FTFY
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:32:53 PM
I've tuned out of this thread for quite some time now. Someone please poke me when you guys finally ditch the philosophy, and the next story/scenario comes up for discussion.
FTFY
Be careful, don't get drawn in.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 14, 2013, 06:41:24 PM
That doesn't mean Judaism changed, it just means some Jews have decided to stop following Judaism fully.
FTFY
In your view.
There are others out there.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 06:43:19 PM
Be careful, don't get drawn in.  :P

Okay, fine... If nobody else is gonna get back to business, I will. ;)


Someone goes and books lots of hotel rooms/award tickets (let's say for argument's sake, he is Plat so he gets free redeposits) for prime dates. He then offers to people that he will "sell" them the availability - i.e. in return for a fee, he will cancel his reservation so that the "buyer" can snap up the newly-available date. Is it ethical?

My 2 cents: no, it's not. It's like domain name squatting. If he booked those dates planning to actually use them, and is now considering the hassle of altering his plans in return for some compensation, then maybe it's okay; but to book for the express purpose of "reselling" the availability (remember, we're not talking about the actual stay/flight - just the ability to book it with your own points) is just plain evil.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:46:49 PM
Someone goes and books lots of hotel rooms/award tickets (let's say for argument's sake, he is Plat so he gets free redeposits) for prime dates. He then offers to people that he will "sell" them the availability - i.e. in return for a fee, he will cancel his reservation so that the "buyer" can snap up the newly-available date. Is it ethical?
Is he violating any T&C's?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 06:50:36 PM
Is he violating any T&C's?

NTIKO. But why is that relevant?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:54:15 PM
NTIKO. But why is that relevant?
If it is not violating any rules I might not like it but I guess it is OK.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 06:57:02 PM
If it is not violating any rules I might not like it but I guess it is OK.

You don't think it's morally wrong to do that?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:59:52 PM
You don't think it's morally wrong to do that?
I would have to say no.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:02:55 PM
I would have to say no.

Okay, how about this: I walk into my local TD Bank, clean out their supply of complementary pens, and go sell them to my friends for 25 cents each. Anything wrong with that picture?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:08:50 PM
Okay, how about this: I walk into my local TD Bank, clean out their supply of complementary pens, and go sell them to my friends for 25 cents each. Anything wrong with that picture?
Can we go back to religion?  :)

If they know you are taking all the pens and donít have a problem with it then why should I. If it says one per customer or they ask you to stop taking the pens then that is a different story.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 07:11:07 PM
Okay, how about this: I walk into my local TD Bank, clean out their supply of complementary pens, and go sell them to my friends for 25 cents each. Anything wrong with that picture?
If you could get all those pens over the internet, I'm sure many people would take all. People are embaressed, and TD relies on that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:12:25 PM
Can we go back to religion?  :)

Nope. This is a fight to the finish. :P

If they know you are taking all the pens and donít have a problem with it then why should I. If it says one per customer or they ask you to stop taking the pens then that is a different story.

You only covered a definite "yes" and a definite "no". What if they happened not to notice you, and therefore didn't say anything? Not "yes", and not "no"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:18:14 PM
You only covered a definite "yes" and a definite "no". What if they happened not to notice you, and therefore didn't say anything? Not "yes", and not "no"?
In that case I would say unethical because in my mind they would not allow you to take all the pens and you should know this.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:22:11 PM
In that case I would say unethical because in my mind they would not allow you to take all the pens and you should know this.

In that case, don't you think the hotel wouldn't want you to "take" all the rooms (which you have no intention of actually buying)? Shouldn't you "know this"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:24:02 PM
In that case, don't you think the hotel wouldn't want you to "take" all the rooms (which you have no intention of actually buying)? Shouldn't you "know this"?
I would expect the hotel program to cover this in the T&C's.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:27:02 PM
I would expect the hotel program to cover this in the T&C's.

...the same way the bank covers pen theft adoption in their T&Cs?!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 07:29:06 PM
I would expect the hotel program to cover this in the T&C's.

It isn't.

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/legal/spg_terms.html
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
It isn't.

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/legal/spg_terms.html

I know it isn't.

But my point is, the question is not "is it allowed". The question is "is it ethical".
Title: Is It Ethical?
Post by: WhyAich on January 14, 2013, 07:32:18 PM
It isn't.

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/legal/spg_terms.html
@AJK
what's your take on this one?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 07:32:56 PM
Personally, I'd find this unethical, as it surely goes against the spirit of the program.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:33:24 PM
@AJK
what's your take on this one?

@WhyAich
What's yours? ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:34:22 PM
Personally, I'd find this unethical, as it surely goes against the spirit of the program.

Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I had the asylum all to myself. :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on January 14, 2013, 07:35:09 PM
Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I had the asylum all to myself. :)

Oh, def not. I was the one for whom the asylum was created  8)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:36:17 PM
Oh, def not. I was the one for whom the asylum was created  8)

LOL. I like you even more now. ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I had the asylum all to myself. :)
Oh, def not. I was the one for whom the asylum was created  8)
Not so quick. I have you both beat.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:39:43 PM
Not so quick. I have you both beat.

You're the one arguing with us...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:42:58 PM
You're the one arguing with us...
That is why I belong in an asylum.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:45:18 PM
That is why I belong in an asylum.  :P

Well, get your own. Ours is full. All booked up by some jerk who wants to sell points availability to the highest bidder. ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:47:18 PM
Well, get your own. Ours is full. All booked up by some jerk who wants to sell points availability to the highest bidder. ;D
Can you get me in?  :'(
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 14, 2013, 07:51:21 PM
Can you get me in?  :'(

Yup. 50 bucks, and tell me what time to cancel one of my reservations. ;)

In all seriousness, though, back on topic... I'd love to hear what others think. Is it ethical?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on January 14, 2013, 10:58:22 PM
I don't think you can compare the case of the bike to my case of the Ami magazine or finding a envelope of cash addressed to you in your mailbox. I'm talking about when someone knowingly and willingly puts something on my doorstep addressed to me. Why should I not assume its a gift to me? When I got married and I got gifts in the mail should I have assumed it was sent to me by mistake?
not sure what you need to be explained, why the halacha is not that way or why by law you are wrong
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 16, 2013, 11:26:00 AM
I won a dispute with card cash over a gc purchase (gotta love amex).

Do you think the gc is still active? If it is, is it ethical to use it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 17, 2013, 10:00:11 PM
Was parked in a illegal spot and got a deserved ticket but the ticket was full of mistakes, I am wondering if I should pay it because I did park illegally or should I fight it and most probably get it off on a technicality.

I will probably fight it but wondering what others think about such cases.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Fan of Dan on January 17, 2013, 10:01:13 PM
Was parked in a illegal spot and got a deserved ticket but the ticket was full of mistakes, I am wondering if I should pay it because I did park illegally or should I fight it and most probably get it off on a technicality.

I will probably fight it but wondering what others think about such cases.
I would certainly fight it. It's like speeding IMHO. Just cause you sped is not a reason not to try to talk your way out of it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on January 17, 2013, 10:02:59 PM
Was parked in a illegal spot and got a deserved ticket but the ticket was full of mistakes, I am wondering if I should pay it because I did park illegally or should I fight it and most probably get it off on a technicality.

I will probably fight it but wondering what others think about such cases.
Where are you?
Here in NY, the way I see it, I get enough undeserved tickets (which I can't get off) that anything I can get off I'll take, deserved or not.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on January 17, 2013, 10:10:18 PM
Where are you?
Here in NY, the way I see it, I get enough undeserved tickets (which I can't get off) that anything I can get off I'll take, deserved or not.
In NY and it is my first ticket in years, forgot to move my car it is only $45, I agree that they are overzeolus and bloodsuckers but I did do wrong here.. Maybe the guy did me a favor and purposely wrote wrong info.

I would go to fight it in person since those have much more luck from what i hear, but brooklyn office is closed and the time spent trying to fight $45 I could just work and hofully make more then that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Fan of Dan on January 17, 2013, 11:59:41 PM
In NY and it is my first ticket in years, forgot to move my car it is only $45, I agree that they are overzeolus and bloodsuckers but I did do wrong here.. Maybe the guy did me a favor and purposely wrote wrong info.

I would go to fight it in person since those have much more luck from what i hear, but brooklyn office is closed and the time spent trying to fight $45 I could just work and hofully make more then that.
I would have thought this would be in the ethical thread for another reason. Is it ethical not to fight the ticket! I guess 45 bucks aint much though.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 18, 2013, 04:47:16 PM
Was parked in a illegal spot and got a deserved ticket but the ticket was full of mistakes, I am wondering if I should pay it because I did park illegally or should I fight it and most probably get it off on a technicality.

I will probably fight it but wondering what others think about such cases.
If you fight it on the grounds you did not park illegally I would say that is unethical. The ticket is required to be filled out correctly and I see no problem challenging that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 19, 2013, 11:52:58 AM
If you fight it on the grounds you did not park illegally I would say that is unethical. The ticket is required to be filled out correctly and I see no problem challenging that.
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 19, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
If you fight it on the grounds you did not park illegally I would say that is unethical. The ticket is required to be filled out correctly and I see no problem challenging that.

+1

Well said.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on January 19, 2013, 02:23:07 PM
If you fight it on the grounds you did not park illegally I would say that is unethical. The ticket is required to be filled out correctly and I see no problem challenging that.
maskim :-).  Truth is @whyme i don't think its ethical to say it that way. Since they gave me tickets unlawfully last time, this time even  though there right, im not going to pay? What about all those times you sped and got away with it? You going to pay for that?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 20, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
Not sure where to post it.
Maybe in the "Is It Ethical" thread or in the "Is It a Good Trick" thread.
Asked to be refunded E+ seat upgrades on a canceled UA ticket, did online and over the phone and got'em twice.
I didnt intend on doing that, was just calling them to speed up the refund.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 20, 2013, 06:50:59 PM
Maybe start a "Good Unethical Trick" thread.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: moko on January 20, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Maybe start a "Good Unethical Trick" thread.
isnt that most of the forums ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 20, 2013, 08:06:19 PM
isnt that most of the forums ;)
I made that comment when I first joined here and I am surprised I still survived.
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: creditor on January 20, 2013, 08:17:37 PM
Not sure where to post it.
Maybe in the "Is It Ethical" thread or in the "Is It a Good Trick" thread.
Asked to be refunded E+ seat upgrades on a canceled UA ticket, did online and over the phone and got'em twice.
I didnt intend on doing that, was just calling them to speed up the refund.
this one is actually a basis for allot of these unethical tricks where a phone + an email etc. ends you up with double the credit/refund/reimbursement.....

your ethics may vary
Title: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 20, 2013, 08:19:32 PM
your ethics may vary
YEMV - We need to add that to the list.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: creditor on January 20, 2013, 08:29:29 PM
YEMV - We need to add that to the list.  :)
the list???
the banner, you mean. :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on January 20, 2013, 09:18:29 PM
Either way, im not looking for excuses since I couldn't care less about ethics. As long as my wallet inflate I'm happy.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MEIR613 on January 20, 2013, 09:34:30 PM
Either way, im not looking for excuses since I couldn't care less about ethics. As long as my wallet inflate I'm happy.
From a true DDFer.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: moko on January 20, 2013, 10:16:54 PM
I made that comment when I first joined here and I am surprised I still survived.
and yet your still (happily?) here :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on January 21, 2013, 04:21:16 AM
Either way, im not looking for excuses since I couldn't care less about ethics. As long as my wallet inflate I'm happy.

Paging Menucha... ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: nutcase on January 22, 2013, 04:10:38 AM
Either way, im not looking for excuses since I couldn't care less about ethics. As long as my wallet inflate I'm happy.
slogan for fat wallet? ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 22, 2013, 09:27:10 AM
slogan for fat wallet deals? ;)
FTFY
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on January 22, 2013, 12:02:05 PM
Best Buy sent out an email to certain costumers offering them $50 of off $100 if they use a mc.  someone spreads the coupon all over the internet  and clearly it will work in the store if you try.  Ethical to use it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on January 22, 2013, 12:07:14 PM
isnt it upto best buy if they want it t be exclusive - bbb does that use it once - even the coupon code
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on January 22, 2013, 12:32:39 PM
obviously they goofed by not making unique coupon codes but it was pretty clear as the day progressed that they had intended for it to only be good for certain customers and not others.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on January 22, 2013, 03:20:32 PM
I won a dispute with card cash over a gc purchase (gotta love amex).

Do you think the gc is still active? If it is, is it ethical to use it?
Bump
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on January 22, 2013, 03:25:30 PM
Best Buy sent out an email to certain costumers offering them $50 of off $100 if they use a mc.  someone spreads the coupon all over the internet  and clearly it will work in the store if you try.  Ethical to use it?
No.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: elizmm on February 11, 2013, 08:39:40 AM
If you fight it on the grounds you did not park illegally I would say that is unethical. The ticket is required to be filled out correctly and I see no problem challenging that.

Update: I fought the ticket, did not say that I was parked legally, just requested the the violation be dismissed based on the inaccurate info on the ticket. I got my answer by email: not-guilty.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 11, 2013, 08:45:14 AM
Update: I fought the ticket, did not say that I was parked legally, just requested the the violation be dismissed based on the inaccurate info on the ticket. I got my answer by email: not-guilty.

Quote from: קיצור שו"ע סי' קמ"א ס"א

משנכנס אדר מרבין בשמחה, וישראל שיש לו דו"ד עם א"י ישפוט עמו בחודש זה
;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on February 13, 2013, 07:14:08 PM
Update: I fought the ticket, did not say that I was parked legally, just requested the the violation be dismissed based on the inaccurate info on the ticket. I got my answer by email: not-guilty.

:)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on February 26, 2013, 04:34:26 PM
I purchased a pair of sunglasses from Groupon for $50. I bought the exact same pair from Nordstrom for $100.  Is it ethical to return the $50 pair to Nordstrom (brand new) for $100? Still have my Nordstrom receipt/glasses case..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on February 26, 2013, 04:36:01 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but if they're exactly the same, why not just return the $100 pair to Nordstrom?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: myb821 on February 26, 2013, 04:36:52 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but if they're exactly the same, why not just return the $100 pair to Nordstrom?
im assuming he already started using them
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on February 26, 2013, 08:39:24 PM
im assuming he already started using them
Or they were stolen from my car
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: alpicone on February 26, 2013, 11:12:02 PM
im assuming he already started using them

You can return anything to Nordstrom even if it is used. I have returned items that broke after vein used for 3 years without any questions.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on February 26, 2013, 11:28:33 PM
You can return anything to Nordstrom even if it is used. I have returned items that broke after vein used for 3 years without any questions.
I know you can return anything there. And BTW I don't think it is ethical to use/wear something for 3 years and just return to Nordstrom but that's a diff discussion.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Lou Bob on February 26, 2013, 11:31:46 PM
I know you can return anything there. And BTW I don't think it is ethical to use/wear something for 3 years and just return to Nordstrom but that's a diff discussion.

why not? Isn't that their policy?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 12:52:30 AM
I purchased a pair of sunglasses from Groupon for $50. I bought the exact same pair from Nordstrom for $100.  Is it ethical to return the $50 pair to Nordstrom (brand new) for $100? Still have my Nordstrom receipt/glasses case..
This is a simple one, NO!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 27, 2013, 01:08:50 AM
why not? Isn't that their policy?

Nordstrom's is a clothing gemach?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on February 27, 2013, 09:20:49 AM
Nordstrom's is a clothing gemach?
;D ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on February 27, 2013, 09:21:29 AM
This is a simple one, NO!
I don't think it's that simple. Were talking about the exact same item..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 10:41:35 AM
I don't think it's that simple. Were talking about the exact same item..
No, you are talking about returning an item that you never bought there.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 27, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
No, you are talking about returning an item that you never bought there.  ;)
If you ask someone to put them under a cup and mix them, then is it ethical? I don't think I agree with your logic. It's one thing to do it with that intention, but once you own both I think it's fine.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 03:53:02 PM
If you ask someone to put them under a cup and mix them, then is it ethical? I don't think I agree with your logic. It's one thing to do it with that intention, but once you own both I think it's fine.
If it is the stores policy to take back items not purchased there then I would agree with you. The cup thing is to just justify it in your own mind.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 27, 2013, 04:12:40 PM
If it is the stores policy to take back items not purchased there then I would agree with you. The cup thing is to just justify it in your own mind.  :P
Ethics is in the mind. No? I bet each store rep would tell you a different story of whether it is allowed or not... At the end of the day the cup example is to show there really is no difference, and if it comes down to gavra and cheftza the cheftza is in all reality the same in both cases so that is my logic... It is a tricky question though, I would have to think it over more if it involved me...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 04:18:12 PM
Then this still is an easy one. Asked the store its policy.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 27, 2013, 04:19:46 PM
Then this still is an easy one. Asked the store its policy.  ;)
If and when the person asks, please include the cup example, and see what they say to that...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
If and when the person asks, please include the cup example, and see what they say to that...
How about I have two cuts of meat. One is kosher and one is not but they look the same. I put them both on a plate and mix them up. Would you eat one of them if you knew ahead of time what I did?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 27, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
How about I have two cuts of meat. One is kosher and one is not but they look the same. I put them both on a plate and mix them up. Would you eat one of them if you knew ahead of time what I did?
Are we getting into the whole ethics/religion thing again? wake me up in 10 pages :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 27, 2013, 04:52:27 PM
Are we getting into the whole ethics/religion thing again? wake me up in 10 pages :P

Isn't that the whole point of this thread?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on February 27, 2013, 04:56:22 PM
How about I have two cuts of meat. One is kosher and one is not but they look the same. I put them both on a plate and mix them up. Would you eat one of them if you knew ahead of time what I did?
they look the same but are not the same. that would be comparable only if one pair of sunglasses was a knockoff. if he had never opened the one he bought from nordstrom would you have a problem with him returning the one he bought from groupon instead?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 05:39:53 PM
Are we getting into the whole ethics/religion thing again? wake me up in 10 pages :P
I will send you a PM.  :)
Isn't that the whole point of this thread?
No and we already went through this.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 27, 2013, 05:42:26 PM
Isn't that the whole point of this thread?
No and we already went threw this.
Post any ethical discussion you may have in this thread.
Any ethics discussions made in other threads from now on will be deleted.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 05:43:39 PM
I was talking about the religion part.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 27, 2013, 05:49:06 PM
I was talking about the religion part.

I didn't catch that. I would argue that ethics and religion are inseparable, though I haven't read through this thread, and it's probably been argued to death already.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 27, 2013, 05:51:45 PM
...and it's probably been argued to death already.
...and then some. lol
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 27, 2013, 05:55:11 PM
...and then some. lol
Keep it up and we will get ten more pages.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 27, 2013, 09:13:21 PM
I didn't catch that. I would argue that ethics and religion are inseparable, though I haven't read through this thread, and it's probably been argued to death already.
You didn't read the wiki?

How about I have two cuts of meat. One is kosher and one is not but they look the same. I put them both on a plate and mix them up. Would you eat one of them if you knew ahead of time what I did?
like mcclovin said, those 2 pieces of meat are not at all the same cheftza according to Judaism.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HelpMe on February 28, 2013, 12:39:55 AM
like mcclovin said, those 2 pieces of meat are not at all the same cheftza according to Judaism.
...and I would argue that two items bought from different stores are not the same.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 28, 2013, 12:58:59 AM
You didn't read the wiki?

Meh. You just added that like ten minutes ago.

Wait a couple minutes, while I quickly write up something that negates the need for all your previous comments. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2013, 02:37:46 AM
Meh. You just added that like ten minutes ago.

Wait a couple minutes, while I quickly write up something that negates the need for all your previous comments. 
You don't know how to read a time stamp? It was written a day earlier.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on February 28, 2013, 03:18:42 AM
You don't know how to read a time stamp? It was written a day earlier.

Do you know how to detect slight exaggeration? It was written a couple hours before our comments. Apparently you can't read time stamps either.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2013, 03:21:01 AM
Do you know how to detect slight exaggeration? It was written a couple hours before our comments. Apparently you can't read time stamps either.
:P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: shmooz on April 02, 2013, 11:04:13 PM
opening a new frequent flyer account to apply for another credit card airline bonus -

pro- the airlines let you have more than one open, and the cc company could track by social if they really wanted to stop this

con- sometimes the cc companies say  its a once in a lifetime bonus, so its really against their terms.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 02, 2013, 11:05:45 PM
opening a new frequent flyer account to apply for another credit card airline bonus -

pro- the airlines let you have more than one open, and the cc company could track by social if they really wanted to stop this

con- sometimes the cc companies say  its a once in a lifetime bonus, so its really against their terms.

Any thoughts?


Once in a lifetime per account? Per person?

Honestly if you want to be 100% Yashar I'd say probably not.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yeshiva36 on April 02, 2013, 11:52:56 PM

Once in a lifetime per account? Per person?

Honestly if you want to be 100% Yashar I'd say probably not.

I thought chase says their 3rd party bonuses are one per person
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 01:29:55 AM
Any thoughts?
If it is against the T&C's then I would have to say it is not ethical to do.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
I received the following email, whats the ethical thing to do?

Good Morning,

We are reaching out to you regarding your order with our company, Simple Cell Inc. It has come to our attention that due to a system error we have sent some orders twice, yours being one of them. We would ask that you just write return to sender on the duplicate package and leave it for your postman to return to us. If it is open you can just tape it shut.  We apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your help.

 

Thank you,

Nick

Simple Cell Inc
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 03, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
You really asking?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 03, 2013, 12:28:46 PM
You really asking?

+1. Its one thing if they didn't ask.... Once they asked.... Send it back.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 12:43:02 PM
You really asking?
do they have a reasonable expectation of a return or are they really "meyaesh"? In other words, its not my problem that they screwed up and caused themsel a loss.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 05:41:59 PM
do they have a reasonable expectation of a return or are they really "meyaesh"? In other words, its not my problem that they screwed up and caused themsel a loss.
This thread is "Is It Ethical". The answer is clear in your case.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:17:08 PM
This thread is "Is It Ethical". The answer is clear in your case.
One could define "ethical" as something that is legally required , as you have implied "it has to be in the T&C". I wish I could explain the term "Yiush ba'lim" to you, it would take rivers of ink...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:21:41 PM
One could define "ethical" as something that is legally required , as you have implied "it has to be in the T&C". I wish I could explain the term "Yiush ba'lim" to you, it would take rivers of ink...
I have the time.  :)

Letís not confuse ethical and legally. That would be almost as bad as confusing ethics and religion.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:25:16 PM
to give an example, If your diamond fell into the deep blue ocean and I find it, there is zero expectation on your behalf of ever seeing it again, would you say that there is an ethical obligation to return the item to the previous owner?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2013, 06:25:50 PM
I have the time.  :)

Letís not confuse ethical and legally. That would be almost as bad as confusing ethics and religion.  ;)
+1. Don't people read the wiki  ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on April 03, 2013, 06:26:15 PM
to give an example, If your diamond fell into the deep blue ocean and I find it, there is zero expectation on your behalf of ever seeing it again, would you say that there is an ethical obligation to return the item to the previous owner?
But that  doesn't apply here because they asked for it back so they were expecting it back.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:27:16 PM
+1. Don't people read the wiki  ::)
Nice, I never read it before.  :-[
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:28:14 PM
to give an example, If your diamond fell into the deep blue ocean and I find it, there is zero expectation on your behalf of ever seeing it again, would you say that there is an ethical obligation to return the item to the previous owner?
If you knew the owner then yes.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:28:58 PM
But that  doesn't apply here because they asked for it back so they were expecting it back.
Im asking you for a $10,000. Now what?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:30:00 PM
If you knew the owner then yes.
He has relinquished all ownership and claims, why give it to him? Give it to the poor!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
He has relinquished all ownership and claims, why give it to him? Give it to the poor!
I would be upset if a friend of mine found my diamond and kept it or gave it to anyone but me. And therefore I'd do unto others... and return it if I knew the guy for sure.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on April 03, 2013, 06:38:46 PM
Im asking you for a $10,000. Now what?
If you told me "Hi, I gave you 20k instead of 10k that I was supposed to give you by accident please give me back the 10k"...  They are not just saying out of the blue to give back something. You know and they know they sent 2 items by accident.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:40:03 PM
He has relinquished all ownership and claims, why give it to him? Give it to the poor!
Is it any different than seeing someone drop a $100 bill? Should I pick it up and give it to the poor?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2013, 06:42:10 PM
Is it any different than seeing someone drop a $100 bill? Should I pick it up and give it to the poor?
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on April 03, 2013, 06:42:55 PM
Is it any different than seeing someone drop a $100 bill? Should I pick it up and give it to the poor?
I would give it back to the person.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on April 03, 2013, 06:43:50 PM
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....
Correct, but in his case they did not give up hope.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 03, 2013, 06:44:41 PM
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....

Well based on the fact that they sent out an email at all I would say they didn't lose hope.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yeshiva36 on April 03, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
If it is against the T&C's then I would have to say it is not ethical to do.

I checked the TC  on one Chase app
Chase cardmembers who currently have or have had a Chase credit card in any Rewards Program associated with this offer or have received a similar bonus offer, may not be eligible for a second Chase credit card in the same Rewards Program, or for any bonus offer.

It doesnt say are not eligible it says may not be, that gives them the right to hold back the bonus, but it is not clearly saying they wont give it to you or you shouldn't apply.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....
Please read the Wiki.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:53:42 PM
Well based on the fact that they sent out an email at all I would say they didn't lose hope.
To me the email is a pathetic attempt. I guess I see the world full of unethical(-?) people..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2013, 06:57:33 PM
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....
I am not discussing the halacha, I am making an argument based on a halachic principle, that it is possible for ones ownership to be totally revoked thereby leaving us with an ethical dilemma.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 06:57:47 PM
I guess I see the world full of unethical(-?) people..
You are seeing it the way it is.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2013, 07:00:11 PM
I am not discussing the halacha, I am making an argument based on a halachic principle, that it is possible for ones ownership to be totally revoked thereby leaving us with an ethical dilemma.
Churnbaby is basing his logic on a halacha about returning lost objects. The determining factor is if the owner gave up hope on it being returned or not....

Please read the Wiki.  :P
Uh that is what I told him. Are you following here?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2013, 07:07:11 PM
Uh that is what I told him. Are you following here?
Please take it slow and I will try and keep up.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2013, 07:33:58 PM
Please take it slow and I will try and keep up.  :)
Old timers  ::)  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 04, 2013, 01:10:09 PM
lots of people make this mistake. yiush apply only to a avaida not by gzaila (i am not implying that you stole it) or a shomer ect... sending something by mail to someone is def not a avaida, yiush would not apply. so yiush does not play a factor here dont base it on that. there are other halochos you can base it on but i dont want to get into it. its been discussed here before
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 04, 2013, 01:39:00 PM
lots of people make this mistake. yiush apply only to a avaida not by gzaila (i am not implying that you stole it) or a shomer ect... sending something by mail to someone is def not a avaida, yiush would not apply. so yiush does not play a factor here dont base it on that. there are other halochos you can base it on but i dont want to get into it. its been discussed here before
Its not gezeilah and Im not the shomer. In which way is it not an avaida?? They lost it by mistakenly sending it by mail. "Lost" in halacha is not defined as falling out of a pocket. 
IMHO I dont know what your talking about!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on April 05, 2013, 10:45:41 AM
I had a GC for a restaurant so when I paid my bill was only $50. There is a tip calculator on the bottom of receipt and since only $50 was charged to my cc 18% was about $7, which I gave as a tip (service was lacking..) Should I have given a tip off the entire bill ($200?) Was I wrong?  I can honestly say I did not even think about it till we had left..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 05, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
Is it a mandatory 18%? If not, you can tip whatever you want. You are tipping for service and it was lacking, they got more than they deserve
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 05, 2013, 11:19:49 AM
They lost it by mistakenly sending it by mail.
-1
"Lost" in halacha is not defined as falling out of a pocket. 

lost is defined as unknowingly loosing possession of the item
 
IMHO I dont know what your talking about!
your opinion does not make that its based on halacha.
i highly doubt thats what your opinion is. i am pretty sure that if you owed me $100 and you mailed me a check, then you forgot about the first one and mailed me another one, that you would say you lost it
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 05, 2013, 11:21:39 AM
-1lost is defined as unknowingly loosing possession of the itemyour opinion does not make that its based on halacha.
i highly doubt thats what your opinion is. i am pretty sure that if you owed me $100 and you mailed me a check, then you forgot about the first one and mailed me another one, that you would say you lost it
zuto shel yam is "unknowingly" losing a possession?
Its a yes or no question.
(Besides, the company "unknowingly" mailed two items anyway.)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 05, 2013, 11:31:03 AM
zuto shel yam is "unknowingly" losing a possession?
Its a yes or no question.
no. and evan if you put it in the yam (derech hanacha) its mutar, evan without yiush and the rishonim explain it is considered a avaida, it called avuda mimenu u mikal adam. its a whole different topic 

(Besides, the company "unknowingly" mailed two items anyway.)
dont know why you keep repeating the same thing, they know what they are doing, just making a mistake why they are doing it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 05, 2013, 11:49:31 AM
can you understand that when a company has a computer glitch that causes shipments to ship double it is not the same as me mailing a check to you twice.
IMO they have given up on retrieving their lost inventory. They have lost control over it and shipped it to a whole bunch of probably unethical customers who may or may not read the little pathetic email request to please return the item.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 05, 2013, 11:51:01 AM
no. and evan if you put it in the yam (derech hanacha) its mutar, evan without yiush and the rishonim explain it is considered a avaida, it called avuda mimenu u mikal adam. its a whole different topic  dont know why you keep repeating the same thing, they know what they are doing, just making a mistake why they are doing it.
Il argue that dropping things in the mail is considered avuda mimenu...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: real-brisker on April 05, 2013, 11:51:27 AM
i dont see a difference betwwen the two.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 05, 2013, 11:55:02 AM
I had a GC for a restaurant so when I paid my bill was only $50. There is a tip calculator on the bottom of receipt and since only $50 was charged to my cc 18% was about $7, which I gave as a tip (service was lacking..) Should I have given a tip off the entire bill ($200?) Was I wrong?  I can honestly say I did not even think about it till we had left..
The amount of tip should be based on the total bill.

I was just at Red Lobster (not my choice) and the girl took a half off coupon for all four meals. Needless to say I tipped on the whole bill plus extra for her taking all four coupons.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 05, 2013, 12:07:57 PM
Il argue that dropping things in the mail is considered avuda mimenu...
do you know what avuda mimenu u mikal adam means
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on April 05, 2013, 01:00:05 PM
The amount of tip should be based on the total bill.

I was just at Red Lobster (not my choice) and the girl took a half off coupon for all four meals. Needless to say I tipped on the whole bill plus extra for her taking all four coupons.

Now I feel really bad :(
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 05, 2013, 01:55:02 PM
Il argue that dropping things in the mail is considered avuda mimenu...
i dont think you think so, if you do,  i would be happy to come pick up anything you mail out, anyone can take anything delivered to your house by mail sine its a zuta shel yam. its nice to be melamed zechus for those who steal from the mail
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: real-brisker on April 05, 2013, 02:06:12 PM
rt - you can go back... ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: RT on April 09, 2013, 12:22:04 PM
rt - you can go back... ;)

I'll be there again tonight, I'm gonna apologize and give her a big tip. I don't wanna come across as cheap. Usually fantastic service over there, just got a bad table last time..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 09, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
First they ship me double and ask me to return one, (I did, reason see above... ;))
Now I get this from Amazon:
Hello,

We're writing to let you know we processed your refund of $xx for your Order XXX from Simple Cell, Inc.

This refund is for the following item(s):

Reason for refund: Shipping address is undeliverable

Here's the breakdown of your refund for this item etc...

Whats the ethical thing to do with this company,  they seem to like me  ::)??
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: real-brisker on April 09, 2013, 04:50:55 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 09, 2013, 05:10:15 PM
Nice!
thats what you get when your "ethical"  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moshe123 on April 09, 2013, 05:17:07 PM
thats what you get when your "ethical"  ;D

+100
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 09, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
I don't want I insult anyone specificity- bit wanted I know what ppl think cause its been battering me a little...
I feel this whole selling nights at le meridian Dead Sea is very unethical!
And I'm not just talking about because of their t&c- which one can maybe say they are not complying with themselves ...
I'm also talking about how this is causing ppl who worked honestly to get points and would like to be able to use on a vacation- (which they otherwise can't afford for practical purposes) and can't use them where they would like to when planning theit vacation- ie:about month in advance- cause can't find nights  being that ppl are booking them all to sell!
(Yes I know get are selling them for cheap- bug ppl should be getting them for free!)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 09, 2013, 06:08:44 PM
Guess its sour topic..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 09, 2013, 06:10:18 PM
IIRC This particular example has been discussed though I can't find it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 09, 2013, 06:12:54 PM
Figured- but couldn't find if either
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2013, 06:31:26 PM
Guess its sour topic..
Not sour at all. Is it just this one place or selling any nights at any hotel you feel is unethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 09, 2013, 06:33:06 PM
Any technically..
But what really bothers me is fact ppl doing it so constantly here (and making a business out of it) that really hard I find nights available...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2013, 06:35:38 PM
Any technically..
But what really bothers me is fact ppl doing it so constantly here (and making a business out of it) that really hard I find nights available...
If it is against the T&C's then to me it is clear it is unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 09, 2013, 06:37:05 PM
If it is against the T&C's then to me it is clear it is unethical.
To me it seems unethical regardless of the T&C...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 09, 2013, 06:43:06 PM
Well it is def against t&c- I think everyone agrees with that.. Just ppl racked up their own complaints on this specific hotel (at least)- to somehow make that right..
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2013, 06:46:54 PM
To me it seems unethical regardless of the T&C...
Why you say that.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 09, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
Why you say that.
Assuming the definition of 'unethical' is: "It doesn't feel right to me", then this counts ;D

#runforcover
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
Assuming the definition of 'unethical' is: "It doesn't feel right to me", then this counts ;D

#runforcover
No need to run, makes sense.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 09, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
No need to run, makes sense.
So we can run together :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 10, 2013, 12:09:46 AM
First they ship me double and ask me to return one, (I did, reason see above... ;))
i hope it has nothing to do with me. all i said was yiush doesnt apply here. but i had a list of reasons you can keep it, i just didnt want to mention them here
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 10, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
So we can run together :P
Do you really want to be seen with me?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 18, 2013, 04:01:11 PM
A black man has a job interview with a racist business owner. The black man misrepresents himself by painting himself white. Do two wrongs ever make a right?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 18, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
A black man has a job interview with a racist business owner. The black man misrepresents himself by painting himself white. Do two wrongs ever make a right?
I guess they could but not in this example.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 18, 2013, 08:46:16 PM
What about if little Johnny gets mugged on his way home from school. Thug tells Johnny "give me all your money". Johnny says "I have none", while hoping that the thug doesn't find out that he's lying. Is it ethical for little johnny to lie? And if in this case its fine for johnny to lie, where would you draw the line?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 18, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
What about if little Johnny gets mugged on his way home from school. Thug tells Johnny "give me all your money". Johnny says "I have none", while hoping that the thug doesn't find out that he's lying. Is it ethical for little johnny to lie? And if in this case its fine for johnny to lie, where would you draw the line?

I don't anyone would call this unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on April 18, 2013, 09:05:48 PM
I don't anyone would call this unethical.

So then "two wrongs make a right", in that case.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 18, 2013, 09:09:04 PM
What about if little Johnny gets mugged on his way home from school. Thug tells Johnny "give me all your money". Johnny says "I have none", while hoping that the thug doesn't find out that he's lying. Is it ethical for little johnny to lie? And if in this case its fine for johnny to lie, where would you draw the line?
Is it ethical for little jonny to kick the guy in the ?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 18, 2013, 09:11:46 PM
Is it ethical for little jonny to kick the guy in the ?

Only if I get to see a video of it on YouTube.  :P ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 18, 2013, 09:15:50 PM
For Johnny 's safety I would tell him to tell the mugger he DOES have money and give it all...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 18, 2013, 09:17:19 PM
For Johnny 's safety I would tell him to tell the mugger he DOES have money and give it all...
I like my approach
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 18, 2013, 09:18:11 PM
For Johnny 's safety I would tell him to tell the mugger he DOES have money and give it all...

And throw it far away. Isn't that what they say?

Even though sometimes I think that might upset the dude and he'd wanna shoot me or something.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 19, 2013, 12:40:02 AM
So then "two wrongs make a right", in that case.
Not at all. In this case Johnny was not wrong to lie.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on April 19, 2013, 03:50:47 AM
Not at all. In this case Johnny was not wrong to lie.

Why not?

(Playing devil's advocate here.)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 19, 2013, 11:46:33 AM
What about if little Johnny gets mugged on his way home from school. Thug tells Johnny "give me all your money". Johnny says "I have none", while hoping that the thug doesn't find out that he's lying. Is it ethical for little johnny to lie? And if in this case its fine for johnny to lie, where would you draw the line?
you may (white)lie. you may not hit
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 19, 2013, 12:17:44 PM
you may (white)lie. you may not hit
-1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 19, 2013, 12:22:25 PM
-1
your entitled to your opinion, mine is based on halacha
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 19, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
your entitled to your opinion, mine is based on halacha
Source for halacha prohibiting hitting a mugger?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 19, 2013, 12:34:28 PM
Why not?

(Playing devil's advocate here.)
IMHO just because you lie does not make it wrong.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 19, 2013, 12:39:02 PM
Source for halacha prohibiting hitting a mugger?
one may not hit. you need a source for a exclusion.  if someone is hitting you or certain fam members it may be a exclusion. if your life is in danger is a exclusion
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 19, 2013, 12:45:23 PM
one may not hit. you need a source for a exclusion.  if someone is hitting you or certain fam members it may be a exclusion. if your life is in danger is a exclusion
-1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 19, 2013, 12:53:47 PM
-1
this is not a matter of opinion
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 19, 2013, 01:18:58 PM
this is not a matter of opinion
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2013, 04:54:06 PM
this is not a matter of opinion
In halacha you are probably allowed to kill a mugger like a ba bamachteres. Of course you may hit him.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 19, 2013, 05:57:42 PM
In halacha you are probably allowed to kill a mugger like a ba bamachteres. Of course you may hit him.
one may not hit. you need a source for a exclusion.  if someone is hitting you or certain fam members it may be a exclusion. if your life is in danger is a exclusion
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 19, 2013, 06:18:15 PM

The discussion was about a mugger in the first place.  ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smee123 on April 20, 2013, 09:58:55 PM
If s/o is taking your money you are allowed to hit him!
There is no diff btwn you or the police in stopping a crime!!!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2013, 10:43:50 PM


It is clear in halacha that one must assume that he is prepared for you to defend your money to the extent that he would kill and therefore it is permitted to kill him.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 20, 2013, 11:27:36 PM
Does anyone read the Wiki?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 20, 2013, 11:45:28 PM
Does anyone read the Wiki?
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 20, 2013, 11:52:52 PM
Does anyone read the Wiki?
coming from you? ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 20, 2013, 11:57:22 PM
coming from you? ::)
If you are going to read a Wiki then this one would be it.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 21, 2013, 09:20:44 AM
It is clear in halacha that one must assume that he is prepared for you to defend your money to the extent that he would kill and therefore it is permitted to kill him.
that applies to a ba bemachteres be cause he is ba leharog oy le haraig. that would not apply to a standard mugging , its probably a 1 to 5% of muggings that end up with a death. but if you fell that there is evan a chance of your life being in danger you may hit
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 21, 2013, 09:38:58 AM
that applies to a ba bemachteres be cause he is ba leharog oy le haraig. that would not apply to a standard mugging , its probably a 1 to 5% of muggings that end up with a death. but if you fell that there is evan a chance of your life being in danger you may hit
?!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smee123 on April 21, 2013, 02:23:06 PM
So an ONLY 5% chance of you or your loved one getting KILLED requires you to ---- over for the mugger?!?!?!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2013, 04:48:28 PM
Does anyone read the Wiki?
A good portion of people's ethical  views are based upon religion. This can be seen in people's views on abortion, polygamy, and homosexuality, among other things.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 05:12:50 PM
A good portion of people's ethical  views are based upon religion.
Everyone understands that. If you can't seperate the two then I would suggest don't post in this thread and start another thread about "is it OK according to your religion?".
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 05:15:55 PM
Everyone understands that. If you can't seperate the two then I would suggest don't post in this thread and start another thread about "is it OK according to your religion?".
-1

I think the onus is on you to start a thread what are ethics... Who are you to tell me how to determine my ethical values?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 21, 2013, 05:19:09 PM
A little off topic- but did anyone hear about the single woman in la (very feministic  obviously) who officially got a heter to have a baby (via treatment).. Stirred a lot of pots there...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Let3 on April 21, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
Anyone into  ethics there??
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 05:23:54 PM
I think the onus is on you to start a thread what are ethics...
No need for a new thread.

eth∑i∑cal
1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

If you want to make this about religion, please name one major religion that would approve of what goes on here or any deals/miles/points/finance forum?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 05:26:28 PM
No need for a new thread.

eth∑i∑cal
1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct.
2. being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise.

If you want to make this about religion, please name one major religion that would approve of what goes on here or any deals/miles/points/finance forum?
I am honestly lost. Those 2 definitions fit just fine in regards to the fact that religion defines morality.

And not sure if you realized but throughout this thread people have been debating whether their religion allows what goes on here or not...

We may be agreeing here you just don't know it. i.e. You are missing the point of view from where people are coming from in this thread, who believe ethics and their religion are one and the same.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 05:33:05 PM
I am honestly lost. Those 2 definitions fit just fine in regards to the fact that religion defines morality.

And not sure if you realized but throughout this thread people have been debating whether their religion allows what goes on here or not...
I think we spent 10-20 pages on this before. In your eyes religion defines morality. What about someone that has no religion? Ethics and religion are not the same.

On your second point they can debate all they want. What religion says it is OK to lie about your income on an app just to get a bonus? Or pretend you have a business to just get the bonus?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 05:35:37 PM
You are missing the point of view from where people are coming from in this thread, who believe ethics and their religion are one and the same.
Then they are in the wrong thread. This thread is to discuss the ethics of a deal so it does not happen in every thread.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 05:41:28 PM
In your eyes religion defines morality. What about someone that has no religion? Ethics and religion are not the same.
That is a very poor logic line. It is like saying "You believe the wall is white. What about people that don't believe the wall is white? The wall is not white."

I believe ethics is the same as religion because my religion defines my ethics. To someone with out religion, religion does not define his ethics. Therefore to some people Ethics and religion are the same thing and to others they are not the same thing.

Logical reasoning 101 :P

(Let's do one step at a time. If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here you can feel free to ask what everyone's opinion about the CC application scenario is...)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 21, 2013, 05:48:17 PM
Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics#Defining_ethics
According to Tomas Paul and Linda Elder of the Foundation for Critical Thinking, "most people confuse ethics with behaving in accordance with social conventions, religious beliefs, and the law", and don't treat ethics as a stand-alone concept.[2] Paul and Elder define ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures".[2] The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy states that the word ethics is "commonly used interchangeably with 'morality' ... and sometimes it is used more narrowly to mean the moral principles of a particular tradition, group, or individual."[3]
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 05:58:43 PM
(Let's do one step at a time. If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here you can feel free to ask what everyone's opinion about the CC application scenario is...)
I don't agree.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on April 21, 2013, 06:04:33 PM
If you do agree ethics and religion are the same for me and many on here
I don't agree.  :)
Excuse me for budding in, but jj1000's assertion is not a matter of opinion. He and others are stating that for them, ethics and religion are one and the same (since their religion defines their ethics). Replying that you don't agree is like saying you don't agree that my favorite color is purple.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 21, 2013, 06:06:10 PM


"Paul and Elder define ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures"."

Which is, of course, ludicrous and begs the question.

How the hell does one create a set of concepts and principles that is inherently amorphous and ambiguous from generation to generation?

Perhaps those who think the above have no issue with ethics being fundamentally dynamic, or perhaps its my own upbringing that compels the conclusion that ethics/morals should be unchanging and static?

Yes, some things are "clearly" ethical/unethical, but a large portion of the calculus is necessarily spent in "the gray" without clearly being on one side or the other.

What then? By what barometer do we judge? By what litmus test to we determine "ethical-ness" or the lack thereof?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 21, 2013, 06:06:31 PM
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on April 21, 2013, 06:09:41 PM
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
that's playing semantics. if your ethics are defined by your religion, that is what is meant by "ethics and religion are one and the same"
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 06:12:51 PM
What about saying Religion and ethics are not the same but you define and choose your ethic beliefs according to your religious beliefs?
I am sure that is how most here look at it. Now how about someone who does not believe in religion? Can't he/she have ethics?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 06:14:23 PM
that's playing semantics. if your ethics are defined by your religion, that is what is meant by "ethics and religion are one and the same"
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
I am sure that is how most here look at it. Now how about someone who does not believe in religion? Can't he/she have ethics?
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
In their opinion they do. In my opinion they may be right on somethings and wrong on others.


They have ethics, I just won't agree with many of said ethics. Many villains in out history had ethics, I just don't agree with them...

For example if someone says killing all Jews is the most ethical thing to do because it will save the world from an evil, then they think that is ethical and they do in fact have ethics. I just don't agree with their ethics.

I do believe killing Amalekaits is ethical though.

Catching my drift at all?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 21, 2013, 06:19:34 PM
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong. Every person's ethics are shaped by many things, his upbringing, his religion, the society in which he lives, the books he reads and the movies he watches etc. etc.

Now wake me up in 10 pages when jj1000 and CV are done 8)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 06:21:55 PM
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong. Every person's ethics are shaped by many things, his upbringing, his religion, the society in which he lives, the books he reads and the movies he watches etc. etc.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 06:28:44 PM
I do believe killing Amalekaits is ethical though.

Catching my drift at all?
Not sure, is this just an example?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 06:51:14 PM
Not sure, is this just an example?
Yes, one example of many things I think are ethical that others in the world would disagree with.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on April 21, 2013, 06:56:34 PM
That is like saying if someone has no religion they have no ethics.
Huh?
Please explain how what I said logically leads to your conclusion.
Anyone can have ethics and they can choose to define their ethics using whatever means they wish. My assertion was that for those who define their ethics by their religion, it can be said that for them, "ethics and religion are one and the same".
I strongly disagree, however, with several posters who imply that ethics is something that passively happens to a person based on their upbringing, etc. If it's not a conscious decision to define ethics via some means or another,  then it ain't ethics. It may be good behavior, good habits, etc. that were learned from one's upbringing etc. But it's not ethics unless it's something you decided to stick to because you feel it's right. Ethics are timeless, behaviors are dynamic.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 06:59:50 PM
Yes, one example of many things I think are ethical that others in the world would disagree with.
Ouch!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 07:01:50 PM
Huh?
Please explain how what I said logically leads to your conclusion.
Anyone can have ethics and they can choose to define their ethics using whatever means they wish. My assertion was that for those who define their ethics by their religion, it can be said that for them, "ethics and religion are one and the same".
I strongly disagree, however, with several posters who imply that ethics is something that passively happens to a person based on their upbringing, etc. If it's not a conscious decision to define ethics via some means or another,  then it ain't ethics. It may be good behavior, good habits, etc. that were learned from one's upbringing etc. But it's not ethics unless it's something you decided to stick to because you feel it's right. Ethics are timeless, behaviors are dynamic.
How about this? Ethics and religion being the same is YMMV.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on April 21, 2013, 07:43:33 PM
How about this? Ethics and religion being the same is YMMV.
exactly.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 08:40:32 PM
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 21, 2013, 08:41:25 PM
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.


Why?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 08:42:51 PM

Why?

Other than the fact that you need certain laws for society to exist, w/o religion why should anyone do anything other than what is directly best for themselves?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sguitarist18 on April 21, 2013, 08:48:08 PM
Because they want to do the right thing. Which, it could be argued (which you can agree with or not), offers such a person a benefit as well - feeling like an ethical person.

What I find humorous is when atheists decide that they have the right to decide they've come up with an ethical value system that other people should follow. As if they can decide which objective values are correct.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 08:48:21 PM
Other than the fact that you need certain laws for society to exist, w/o religion why should anyone do anything other than what is directly best for themselves?
many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 21, 2013, 08:49:47 PM
many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.

+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sguitarist18 on April 21, 2013, 08:55:54 PM
+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.

True - but without an outsider (be it God or someone else you've accepted as being qualified to decide what your value should be), how one "believes in and respects human beings" will be defined differently, both in how, how much, how far, etc.

Ask 10 people, and if you could get all the details of their ethical beliefs, you'd get 10 different answers. Probably very different answers.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 08:59:20 PM
+1 you don't have to believe in Gd to believe in and respect  human beings.

And what logical reason do you have for believing in that? If I could get everything I ever wanted without respecting a single person, why wouldn't that be the smartest choice to make? (assuming that I'm atheist)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:00:47 PM
As a religious person, I believe it is dumb to think that someone who is not religious doesn't have any ethics. But at the same time I believe it is idiotic for someone who is not religious to have any ethics.

many many reasons. There are many very kind and giving atheists in the world.

No one is doubting that there are kind atheists. The question was why. Please list one logical reason (other than society would collapse)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 09:13:20 PM
No one is doubting that there are kind atheists. The question was why. Please list one logical reason (other than society would collapse)
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated. So if you would be poor you'd want a rich person to give you money, then when you are rich you would give poor people money. Etc.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated.

Why? That also comes back to the reason that having a functioning society in beneficial for all (which I believe in, but don't believe is the definition of ethics). How about though if one was in a situation where his actions would go unknown, thereby ensuring that no on else will react differently based on his actions. What would be the logic in such a case to do the "admirable" thing?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:18:57 PM
And what logical reason do you have for believing in that? If I could get everything I ever wanted without respecting a single person, why wouldn't that be the smartest choice to make? (assuming that I'm atheist)
Do we have any atheist here. Don't worry about speaking up, I got your back.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 21, 2013, 09:19:00 PM
200 Y/ago slavery was ethical, 500 y ago torture was etical, 50 Y/A gays were unethical.
Basicaly ethics based on anything but the eternal torah are are flimsy joke, they change with the wind and are not reliable.
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:20:59 PM
How about though if one was in a situation where his actions would go unknown, thereby ensuring that no on else will react differently based on his actions. What would be the logic in such a case to do the "admirable" thing?
Instinct?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:21:46 PM
Do we have any atheist here. Don't worry about speaking up, I got your back.  :)

You are more than welcome to speak your mind here, but please then respectfully switch your avatar.

Instinct?
correct, though does that mean that you are now redefining what ethics is?. People by now have been hardwired to want to protect society (which is for their own good). Once you think about it though, is there any reason you shouldn't do what's in your own best interest.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:22:40 PM
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.
...and who taught the ones that don't believe in G-d?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 21, 2013, 09:24:49 PM
...and who taught the ones that don't believe in G-d?
they make it up as they go along. It "Evolves". . .
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:25:05 PM
You are more than welcome to speak your mind here, but please then respectfully switch your avatar.
I have been speaking my mind. I don't want anyone to be silent because they feel they will be out numbered 1000-1.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 09:25:35 PM
Instinct?
I would call it integrity. But really it is the same rule, if his friend would be in a situation where he could mess said atheist over, the atheist wouldn't want to be messed over, therefore when the atheist is in that situation he will choose not to mess his friend over even though no one will find out.

And this is not what a society needs to function. What does a functioning society need charity for?....

200 Y/ago slavery was ethical, 500 y ago torture was etical, 50 Y/A gays were unethical.
Basicaly ethics based on anything but the eternal torah are are flimsy joke, they change with the wind and are not reliable.
G-d taught humanity wrong from right.
+1

All part of a bigger argument.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 09:25:57 PM
Here is a simple one- One can believe (figure out through basic logic) that you should treat others how you would want to be treated.

And why is that logical? Granted, if I know that the other person may find out what my bad acts are, they may act in the same way towards me which would hurt me. But in a case where either no one will ever know who did them wrong or where no one can pay me back for my misdeeds, explain to me why "do unto others" is logical?

ETA: Apparently I missed tons of replies including Bubbles, whom I pretty much said the same exact words as.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:27:38 PM
I have been speaking my mind. I don't want anyone to be silent because they feel they will be out numbered 1000-1.

I agree, but not with a holy rabbi sitting on your shoulder

I would call it integrity. But really it is the same rule, if his friend would be in a situation where he could mess said atheist over, the atheist wouldn't want to be messed over, therefore when the atheist is in that situation he will choose not to mess his friend over even though no one will find out.

And this is not what a society needs to function. What does a functioning society need charity for?....


again, why is that logical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2013, 09:30:25 PM
again, why is that logical?
1. Self-integrity. 2. With enough contemplation it is a conclusion we as humans can come to.

From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 09:35:22 PM
From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...

Which makes a lot of sense to me, given that the world was completely destroyed once and deserved to be destroyed again. All this type of stuff happens in an ethics free world.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 21, 2013, 09:36:41 PM
Instinct?
The way I understand things are as follows: Ethics are inherently subjective, they are what 'feels' right and what 'feels' wrong.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:37:52 PM
1. Self-integrity. 2. With enough contemplation it is a conclusion we as humans can come to.

From my understanding before the Torah or even the 7 noahide laws were given Halacha was decided by self contemplation on what people felt was right. And what they learned from the world around them...
I'm still not hearing anything purely based on logic. How is self-integrity a logical concept? Without religion (and the need for society) why shouldn't we live by the law of survival of the fittest? Why should your needs come before even my slightest desire? Because it will "make me feel good"? What if I think money will make me feel better than helping you out? Anyway (IMO as stated) that feeling is just something that was instilled/evolved in humans in order that we should make sure that there is a set of laws so society can function. Once you realize that, what logic is there to listen to that emotion in a place where it won't affect the underlying goal?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:38:33 PM
Which makes a lot of sense to me, given that the world was completely destroyed once and deserved to be destroyed again. All this type of stuff happens in an ethics free world.
Wow!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 21, 2013, 09:42:05 PM
I'm still not hearing anything purely based on logic. How is self-integrity a logical concept? Without religion (and the need for society) why shouldn't we live by the law of survival of the fittest? Why should your needs come before even my slightest desire? Because it will "make me feel good"? What if I think money will make me feel better than helping you out? Anyway (IMO as stated) that feeling is just something that was instilled/evolved in humans in order that we should make sure that there is a set of laws so society can function. Once you realize that, what logic is there to listen to that emotion in a place where it won't affect the underlying goal?
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: bubbles on April 21, 2013, 09:45:14 PM
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.

This is the concept I have been saying the whole time of societies survival. It is in the best interests of all us weak ones to band together to protect ourselves from the strong. It is why we made up something called "ethics" that we want the strong to keep to.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 21, 2013, 09:46:45 PM
the athiest think that they live in a chaotic world zillions of years old and life is a mistake, killing a mistake who is basicaly an ape cant be wrong, can it? And if its wrong, who cares. . .
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 09:49:15 PM
I don't consider myself "fittest", if I advocate for a world in which those laws apply then I wouldn't survive an instant. OTOH people who do find themselves as fittest (being in positions of power, or because they believe that those in those positions can't get to them) tend to leave morals and ethics out the door.

So its basically- don't mess with the guys my size and hope that the bigger guys don't eat me. That is my version of an ethics free world. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 21, 2013, 09:55:08 PM
So its basically- don't mess with the guys my size and hope that the bigger guys don't eat me. That is my version of an ethics free world. 
or alternatively I can campaign for an ethical world where I promise not to beat up the guys smaller than me, and in return I expect that the big guys won't beat me up...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 09:56:07 PM
I find it ironic we are discussing ethics when most here could care less if something is ethical or not. Before you jump all over me I mean your decision will be based on your religious beliefs and if that means it is unethical to everyone else, so what.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 10:01:38 PM
Actually, while regular ethics are ever-changing personal beliefs that vary from person to person and generation to generation, I think that religious ethics are the most constant and widespread of them all.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 10:06:01 PM
Actually, while regular ethics are ever-changing personal beliefs that vary from person to person and generation to generation, I think that religious ethics are the most constant and widespread of them all.
Neither of them are constant. One just reacts faster than the other.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 10:22:57 PM
Neither of them are constant. One just reacts faster than the other.

Quote
the most constant

You just said the same exact thing as me. Nice to see that you agree. :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 10:28:45 PM
Nice to see that you agree. :)
I thought you were agreeing with me.  :P
We need to wrap this up. The 10 page limit is almost reached.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2013, 10:29:56 PM
A good portion of people's ethical  views are based upon religion. This can be seen in people's views on abortion, polygamy, and homosexuality, among other things.
I see that I opened a real can of worms here.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 10:38:44 PM
I see that I opened a real can of worms here.
It was opened a long time ago. You just kicked it over.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2013, 10:43:46 PM
I think that the point being brought up is this question:
Why should someone have any consideration at all for someone else unless 1) G-D said so or 2) it will benefit him by there being a functioning society?
Why shouldn't the US nuke the USSR (or vise versa, going back a few years) other than because 1) G-d doesn't want or 2) Mutually assured destruction? Considering that the USSR was atheist 2 may have been the only reason it did not happen.

Many religious sects felt that it was very ethical to kill those who disagreed with their religious beliefs as have many other sects over the centuries (even today). Part of Nazism ym"s was the belief that it was their evolutionary duty for the "master race" to subjugate others.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2013, 10:47:42 PM
It was opened a long time ago. You just kicked it over.  :)

I will let someone else clean up my mess. One second, is that ethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 10:51:02 PM
I will let someone else clean up my mess. One second, is that ethical?
I will answer from an ethical point of view and so no. You can handle the religious point of view.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2013, 11:29:43 PM
Wiki updated to include current events. :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 21, 2013, 11:36:07 PM
Wiki updated to include current events. :)
You trying to start a Wiki war?  >:(   :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on April 22, 2013, 09:00:18 AM
I find it ironic we are discussing ethics when most here could care less if something is ethical or not.
+100

I can point to a dozen of posts by EACH of the participants of this discussion, you'll be ROTFL to see how 'ethical' they are.

Folks, take life easy and enjoy it, otherwise you'll not enjoy it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 22, 2013, 09:02:02 AM
+100

I can point to a dozen of posts by EACH of the participants of this discussion, you'll be ROTFL to see how 'ethical' they are.

Folks, take life easy and enjoy it, otherwise you'll not enjoy it.
...says the man who has satan swearing every waking moment of his. :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moshe123 on April 22, 2013, 09:06:02 AM
This has become the most worthless thread on DDF.  :( :( :'(
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 22, 2013, 09:06:12 AM
+100

I can point to a dozen of posts by EACH of the participants of this discussion, you'll be ROTFL to see how 'ethical' they are.

Folks, take life easy and enjoy it, otherwise you'll not enjoy it.
Maybe you should go into politics seeing the way you just twisted for your own benefit what I said.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 22, 2013, 09:06:39 AM
This has become the most worthless thread on DDF.  :( :( :'(
Time for a poll?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 22, 2013, 10:02:38 AM
+100

I can point to a dozen of posts by EACH of the participants of this discussion, you'll be ROTFL to see how 'ethical' they are.

Folks, take life easy and enjoy it, otherwise you'll not enjoy it.

I take you up on your offer. LMAO :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2013, 12:34:07 PM
Is it possible that these discussions can be forked. I like reading the specific ethical discussions in this thread, not the meta discussions
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 22, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
Is it possible that these discussions can be forked. I like reading the specific ethical discussions in this thread, not the meta discussions

What about the meta meta discussion that you just brought up? Should that be forked off too?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2013, 02:21:58 PM
What about the meta meta discussion that you just brought up? Should that be forked off too?
:P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 22, 2013, 02:40:55 PM
What about the meta meta discussion that you just brought up? Should that be forked off too?
Know stop that. Do as I say not as I do.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2013, 03:14:13 PM
now stop that. Do as I say not as I do.  :)
:P to you too
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 22, 2013, 04:02:16 PM
:P to you too
Can I use you for spell/grammer check?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 22, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Do as I say not as I do.  :)
I always found people who say that to be 'ethically challenged'.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 22, 2013, 09:55:20 PM
Would it be ethical to "borrow" points from Amex by paying for something now, and returning it later? You would rack up other purchases to cover the points you got, and this way you would have an advance on the points you would anyways get later. I don't believe in stealing the points as some do by returning on different card, but to me borrowing points would sound ok. And yes, I do know that amex allows the borrowing of up to 15k.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 22, 2013, 10:28:15 PM
Would it be ethical to "borrow" points from Amex by paying for something now, and returning it later? You would rack up other purchases to cover the points you got, and this way you would have an advance on the points you would anyways get later. I don't believe in stealing the points as some do by returning on different card, but to me borrowing points would sound ok. And yes, I do know that amex allows the borrowing of up to 15k.
[OT(just for the lolz,) "shoel shelo midaas, gazlan"]
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 12:19:46 AM
Would it be ethical to "borrow" points from Amex by paying for something now, and returning it later? You would rack up other purchases to cover the points you got, and this way you would have an advance on the points you would anyways get later. I don't believe in stealing the points as some do by returning on different card, but to me borrowing points would sound ok. And yes, I do know that amex allows the borrowing of up to 15k.
Borrowing the points seems OK but intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: puddles on April 23, 2013, 08:28:21 AM
So I ordered something from a major retailer and in addition to receiving the item that I ordered they also sent me something else valued at roughly $200. I was already charged (correctly) for the one item I ordered. I called them to explain the situation but was put on hold for 15 minutes and lost patience. Do I need to call them back and go through this again? Should I just sell the item on ebay?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 08:31:46 AM
[OT(just for the lolz,) "shoel shelo midaas, gazlan"]
Troll!!!!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 23, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
Borrowing the points seems OK but intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.

True. That slipped my mind. 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2013, 09:09:17 AM
intentionally buying something knowing you are going to return it is not. Your little scheme is going to cost the store money.

How do you figure?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 09:34:22 AM
How do you figure?
Sometimes the item is not put back for sale. Also while you have the item it can't be sold by the store.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2013, 10:23:41 AM
Sometimes the item is not put back for sale. Also while you have the item it can't be sold by the store.

Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 23, 2013, 10:24:50 AM
Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?

Well I suppose you could argue that it takes time for the worker to do the return, place the item back on the shelf etc.

Time is money.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 10:49:17 AM
Assume one returns the item unopened, and it will be put back on the shelf, and further assume the store has a virtually unlimited supply of the item.

Still a problem?
Real life situation but the names have been changed to protect the guilty. HM bought a DSLR camera (4900.00) from XXXX. Returned it unopened sealed in the original packing material. The clerk has to open it up to make sure everything was there. They canít resell it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 11:00:51 AM
There is a concept in the Talmud called "Ze Nehena VeZe Lo Chaser" which means that I may get benefit from something belonging to you, as long as I don't cause you any loss (e.g. I'm allowed to walk by your bakery and enjoy the smell of your fresh baked muffins and you can't charge me for it). This concept however doesn't apply to something that is intended to make profit off of (e.g. i can't live in your apartment even if I don't cause any damage, being that you can lease it out and make money).

I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 11:07:30 AM
I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.
I will just agree so we don't have another 10-20 pages of ethics/religion.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 11:47:41 AM
I will just agree so we don't have another 10-20 pages of ethics/religion.  :)
Haha! i actually thought long and hard before posting, but I believe it makes sense ethically (whatever that means) not only religiously.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2013, 12:28:57 PM
Well I suppose you could argue that it takes time for the worker to do the return, place the item back on the shelf etc.

Time is money.

Good point. But if he's being paid on a salary is is not otherwise engaged?

Real life situation but the names have been changed to protect the guilty. HM bought a DSLR camera (4900.00) from XXXX. Returned it unopened sealed in the original packing material. The clerk has to open it up to make sure everything was there. They canít resell it.

Also a good point. What about if the item doesn't require "packaging" per se? So no need to "open to check."
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 23, 2013, 01:17:01 PM
There is a concept in the Talmud called "Ze Nehena VeZe Lo Chaser" which means that I may get benefit from something belonging to you, as long as I don't cause you any loss (e.g. I'm allowed to walk by your bakery and enjoy the smell of your fresh baked muffins and you can't charge me for it). This concept however doesn't apply to something that is intended to make profit off of (e.g. i can't live in your apartment even if I don't cause any damage, being that you can lease it out and make money).

I believe that buying with the intention of returning falls into the latter.
-1, I think you fail to fully understand that din.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 03:04:02 PM
-1, I think you fail to fully understand that din.
Which part? you don't think this is a case of עשוי להשכיר?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on April 23, 2013, 03:07:56 PM
as religious jews i'm assuming this question is only for ideological purposes only if it is ethical or not because the halacha is that you are not allowed to return
and just to add my 2 cents (or ba pts) on the previous topic (sorry CV) it says in mishlei that a lazy man should learn from an ant not to be lazy and R' Chaim said that this and all the other good things we learn from creations on this world are only before the torah was given but after the torah was given you have to learn it from the torah. It seems to me from here that there is something called ethics before the torah. It can very possibly be that it is all inc in the torah as well being that the torah is infinite and eternal.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 03:53:34 PM
as religious jews i'm assuming this question is only for ideological purposes only if it is ethical or not because the halacha is that you are not allowed to return
and just to add my 2 cents (or ba pts) on the previous topic (sorry CV) it says in mishlei that a lazy man should learn from an ant not to be lazy and R' Chaim said that this and all the other good things we learn from creations on this world are only before the torah was given but after the torah was given you have to learn it from the torah. It seems to me from here that there is something called ethics before the torah. It can very possibly be that it is all inc in the torah as well being that the torah is infinite and eternal.
HKB"H Histakel beo'riso u'borah alma
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 03:56:18 PM
Not trying to be funny but they really should change the name of this thread.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 23, 2013, 04:00:08 PM
Not trying to be funny but they really should change the name of this thread.
And move it to JS. It has gotten rather annoying IMHO.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 04:06:55 PM
And move it to JS. It has gotten rather annoying IMHO.
One out of two.  >:(
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on April 23, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Proposed new name?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moshe123 on April 23, 2013, 04:15:12 PM
Proposed new name?

"I am bored"
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: smee123 on April 23, 2013, 04:17:12 PM
Fight nicely here  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 23, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
Proposed new name?

I would start a new thread and call it "What is ethics" or "definition of ethics?". I know this thread has gone OT many times but it still has a purpose, so it makes sense to keep it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 04:35:25 PM
And move it to JS. It has gotten rather annoying IMHO.
Noooo... I'll lose my lifetime status... :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 04:38:00 PM
I would start a new thread and call it "What is ethics" or "definition of ethics?".
This thread has already attempted to define that. Unfortunately common sense and religion do not mix.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 23, 2013, 04:49:23 PM
Is it possible that these discussions can be forked. I like reading the specific ethical discussions in this thread, not the meta discussions
What about the meta meta discussion that you just brought up? Should that be forked off too?




I would start a new thread and call it "What is ethics" or "definition of ethics?". I know this thread has gone OT many times but it still has a purpose, so it makes sense to keep it.
:P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
. Unfortunately common sense and religion do not mix.
-1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
Proposed new name?
Clearly, as Frum Jews, who live lives where every detail is dictated by our religion/torah "secular ethics" have no place or meaning.
Call it "Lifnim mishuras hadin" or "yashrus" thread, I think that that was the original intent. A separate thread can be titled "halacha" One choshen mishpat one Y"D etc.  after all if it violates halacha its wrong by definition  8)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
-1
Be careful we are in JS now.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 05:07:56 PM
Clearly, as Frum Jews, who live lives where every detail is dictated by our religion/torah "secular ethics" have no place or meaning.
Does this not prove the point that common sense and religion does not mix?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 05:10:27 PM
Does this not prove the point that common sense and religion does not mix?
I think that everything to do with our religion makes perfect logical sense!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 23, 2013, 05:11:06 PM
I think that everything to do with our religion makes perfect logical sense!

Sarcasm?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 05:11:59 PM
Sarcasm?
No im dead serious, Pick a topic! ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on April 23, 2013, 05:13:42 PM
I think that everything to do with our religion makes perfect logical sense!
Parah Adumah?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 05:15:13 PM
Parah Adumah?
Sha'atnez, Basar Bechalav, Tum'ah and Taharah etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 05:19:12 PM
Parah Adumah?
I meant it is logical and makes sense that we have to follow and listen to the torah, and, that keeping the creators commandments to the fullest extent will perfect the world, and the person observing the commandments, to the fullest extent possible. The creator of the world had a fairly good idea what "good" "perfect" and ethical" is. He is perfect and by following him we can be perfect.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on April 23, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
That doesn't mean that everything in the torah is common sense.  It just means that Jews believe that following the torah is common sense.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 05:22:23 PM
I meant it is logical and makes sense that we have to follow and listen to the torah, and, that keeping the creators commandments to the fullest extent will perfect the world, and the person observing the commandments, to the fullest extent possible. The creator of the world had a fairly good idea what "good" "perfect" and ethical" is. He is perfect and by following him we can be perfect.
I think that's better than the unequivocal (and unqualified) statement that:
I think that everything to do with our religion makes perfect logical sense!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
That doesn't mean that everything in the torah is common sense.  It just means that Jews believe that following the torah is common sense.
Your technically right. Though I do want to point out, that if following the toran is common sense, the next step is that everything I do based on the torah is common sense, including Parah aduma.
It's also common sense that everything the creator commanded in the torah is "Good" for us, and the world, this is also common sense and logical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2013, 05:32:36 PM
Your technically right. Though I do want to point out, that if following the toran is common sense, the next step is that everything I do based on the torah is common sense, including Parah aduma.
It's also common sense that everything the creator commanded in the torah is "Good" for us, and the world, this is also common sense and logical.
Common sense is that listening to the Creator is good, that does not mean however that everything the Torah says is common sense being that the Creator (who also created common sense) himself is not bound by the laws of common sense.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on April 23, 2013, 05:35:12 PM
Be careful we are in JS now.  :P

I was wondering where the heck all my posts went. :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 05:38:15 PM
That doesn't mean that everything in the torah is common sense.  It just means that Jews believe that following the torah is common sense.
TY for putting it in terms that anyone with a once of common sense should be able to understand.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 23, 2013, 05:48:47 PM
Letís get back OT so I can cause some trouble. Most business card apps state the card can only be use for business purposes and you agree to this when applying. You know you are not going to use it for business purposes but apply anyway just to get the bonus. What say you?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on April 23, 2013, 06:13:54 PM
Making money is my business :D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on April 23, 2013, 06:31:49 PM
Common sense is that listening to the Creator is good, that does not mean however that everything the Torah says is common sense being that the Creator (who also created common sense) himself is not bound by the laws of common sense.
Well said!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on April 23, 2013, 07:12:16 PM
HKB"H Histakel beo'riso u'borah alma
I hope your intention was to just add and not argue
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 23, 2013, 07:35:38 PM
This thread has already attempted to define that. Unfortunately common sense and religion do not mix.

I don't care if ethics is defined or not in te other thread. As long as the conversation is in a different place I'm happy.

@ergel I agreed with you but still had to have my fun :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 24, 2013, 02:58:46 PM
Letís get back OT so I can cause some trouble. Most business card apps state the card can only be use for business purposes and you agree to this when applying. You know you are not going to use it for business purposes but apply anyway just to get the bonus. What say you?
You can hear a pin drop in here. What seems to be the problem?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 03:37:24 PM
You can hear a pin drop in here. What seems to be the problem?  :)

Officially it sounds wrong. But at the end of the day what do they lose if I use it for personal usage? Personally I don't think they really care about it and its probably in the t&c's for legal reasons. Then again, I really have no clue. Maybe you can enlighten us?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 24, 2013, 04:04:32 PM
Maybe you can enlighten us?
How about you enlighten me? Based on your ethics is it OK. For me it is not.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 04:10:30 PM
How about you enlighten me? Based on your ethics is it OK. For me it is not.

I didnt say it was ok. It sounds ok but I have no clue why they have the rule. If its a rule that is meant for them to protect themselves from directly losing money on me I would agree that its unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 24, 2013, 04:12:06 PM
I front say it was ok. It sounds ok but I have no clue why they have the rule. If its a rule that is meant for them to protect themselves from directly losing money on me I would agree that its unethical.

What if its just a rule they made and they don't lose money either way?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 04:15:33 PM
What if its just a rule they made and they don't lose money either way?

I would compare it to cutting through the velvet ropes when there's no one waiting on line. Yes, there may be a rule that you have to go through the whole round about, but frankly I don't give a darn.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 24, 2013, 04:21:30 PM
What if its just a rule they made and they don't lose money either way?
...but you agreed to the terms. Does it matter if they lose money? Are you saying it is ethical to give false information on the app?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 24, 2013, 07:06:44 PM
Don't want to take the other thread OT so I will post here.

Maybe Dan should have one of the topics at the seminar on "Is It Ethical". I would pay to see that.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whacked1 on April 24, 2013, 07:39:27 PM
Don't want to take the other thread OT so I will post here.

Maybe Dan should have one of the topics at the seminar on "Is It Ethical". I would pay to see that.  :)
lol wanna start a war?! ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 24, 2013, 07:41:00 PM
lol wanna start a war?! ;D
Not sure what you mean.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 08:18:51 PM
...but you agreed to the terms. Does it matter if they lose money? Are you saying it is ethical to give false information on the app?

Depends. If I was to write Mrs. instead of Mr. on an app, would you really call it unethical? OTOH, putting down a false ssn or lying about other important info would definitely be unethical. Honestly, I can't say that I know where your case falls into, but I do believe it falls into the former.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 24, 2013, 08:21:08 PM
...but I do believe it falls into the former.
I believe willfully lying would be called unethical. The question would be is it OK to act unethically if no one stands to lose?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 08:29:37 PM
I believe willfully lying would be called unethical. The question would be is it OK to act unethically if no one stands to lose?

If it would be ok to act unethical, then the act wouldn't be unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 24, 2013, 09:44:23 PM
as religious jews i'm assuming this question is only for ideological purposes only if it is ethical or not because the halacha is that you are not allowed to return
-1000
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 24, 2013, 09:46:48 PM
-1, I think you fail to fully understand that din.
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on April 24, 2013, 09:54:39 PM
Letís get back OT so I can cause some trouble. Most business card apps state the card can only be use for business purposes and you agree to this when applying. You know you are not going to use it for business purposes but apply anyway just to get the bonus. What say you?
dont think its the right thing but i dont think its unethical just my opinion. there are many things that are wrong that would not get defined as unethical. like parking in a handicap spot 
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2013, 10:05:39 PM
there are many things that are wrong that would not get defined as unethical. like parking in a handicap spot

-1000
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 24, 2013, 11:00:44 PM
dont think its the right thing but i dont think its unethical just my opinion. there are many things that are wrong that would not get defined as unethical. like parking in a handicap spot 
???
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 26, 2013, 01:29:56 AM
You can hear a pin drop in here. What seems to be the problem?  :)
Depends. If I was to write Mrs. instead of Mr. on an app, would you really call it unethical? OTOH, putting down a false ssn or lying about other important info would definitely be unethical. Honestly, I can't say that I know where your case falls into, but I do believe it falls into the former.

Still waiting for a response :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 01:33:24 AM

Still waiting for a response :)
If you put down wrong info on purpose to gain something from it then I would call it unethical. If it is an honest mistake then NP.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 26, 2013, 01:55:11 AM
If you put down wrong info on purpose to gain something from it then I would call it unethical. If it is an honest mistake then NP.

That wasn't my point. You're not lying about your info here, you're agreeing to the terms even though you will break them later. If those terms are just there for dumb reasons and not to stop them from direct losses from you, I don't see an issue. Which brings us back to the utilitarian vs. Kant argument. Which side do you take?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 01:59:14 AM
The reason they have the terms is immaterial. If you agree to them you are bound by them. Pretty simple to me but I am a simple kind of guy.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on April 26, 2013, 02:09:50 AM
Letís get back OT so I can cause some trouble. Most business card apps state the card can only be use for business purposes and you agree to this when applying. You know you are not going to use it for business purposes but apply anyway just to get the bonus. What say you?
I forget the terminology for this, but I believe this is a case where although there is a "rule" on the books, nobody follows it and they (knowingly) choose not to enforce it.
Therefore it's acceptable to disregard it and  I don't see a problem.

Also, as Dan pointed out, "earning" miles can be considered business purposes...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 02:46:36 AM
Also, as Dan pointed out, "earning" miles can be considered business purposes...
The lenghts we go to justify what we do.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2013, 09:28:38 AM
The lenghts we go to justify what we do.  ;)
I'm a little confused by you. You have a very strict definition of ethics. Do you follow them?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 09:29:56 AM
I'm a little confused by you. You have a very strict definition of ethics. Do you follow them?
Short answer, no.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 26, 2013, 09:31:18 AM
The lenghts we go to justify what we do.  ;)

+1

At the end of the day just be honest with yourself.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2013, 09:32:23 AM
Short answer, no.
So then who cares what is ethical or not? (maybe we should move this over to the other thread)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on April 26, 2013, 09:34:28 AM
So then who cares what is ethical or not? (maybe we should move this over to the other thread)

Sometimes people are unsure.

 Or they know its not OK and they just need someone to confirm what they already know.

Sometimes they know its not 100% but want someone to give them permission and a reason why its fine.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2013, 09:36:10 AM
Sometimes people are unsure.

 Or they know its not OK and they just need someone to confirm what they already know.

Sometimes they know its not 100% but want someone to give them permission and a reason why its fine.


That was a response to CV. Sorry should've quoted
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 26, 2013, 09:37:18 AM
Short answer, no.

Do you live a happy life?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 09:37:28 AM
So then who cares what is ethical or not? (maybe we should move this over to the other thread)
I care and it seems many other care also. Remember I gave you a short answer, not a song and dance.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 09:38:43 AM
Do you live a happy life?
I feel I do. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2013, 09:41:09 AM
I care and it seems many other care also. Remember I gave you a short answer, not a song and dance.
I'm interested in the song and dance (preferably with video)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on April 26, 2013, 10:18:38 AM
I feel I do. Why do you ask?

There are those that believe that anything that makes you happy is ethical. Based on your posts that's obviously not your position. I asked to see if a similar scenario is true; if not being ethical would prevent you from being happy.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 26, 2013, 10:27:12 AM
There are those that believe that anything that makes you happy is ethical. Based on your posts that's obviously not your position. I asked to see if a similar scenario is true; if not being ethical would prevent you from being happy.
I believe a more Kantian definition of ethics can make one happier. A utilitarian is always worried if what he is doing is ok (i.e ethical) while a Katist (or however you wanna call him) is fine knowing that not everything he does is ethical, and not everything he does HAS to be ethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 11:01:35 AM
There are those that believe that anything that makes you happy is ethical. Based on your posts that's obviously not your position. I asked to see if a similar scenario is true; if not being ethical would prevent you from being happy.

Regardless of his ethical beliefs, whether CV lives a happy life or not would prove little. How happy he is may only be impacted slightly by his ethical choices that he makes (there are many more factors) and just because some ppl may believe that whatever makes you happy is ethical, does not necessarily mean that whatever is ethical makes you happy.

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 11:02:10 AM
There are those that believe that anything that makes you happy is ethical.
I am not happy 100% of the time. Now I know why.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 26, 2013, 11:03:25 AM
I am not happy 100% of the time. Now I know why.  :)
AHA! :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 11:07:44 AM
I believe a more Kantian definition of ethics can make one happier. A utilitarian is always worried if what he is doing is ok (i.e ethical) while a Katist (or however you wanna call him) is fine knowing that not everything he does is ethical, and not everything he does HAS to be ethical.

For the most part, the purpose of defining ethics is not about what makes one happier or not (at least not through a direct connection). The purpose of ethics is to define how one ought to act in a given scenario. Both a utilitarian and a Kantian eticist has the option of being unethical if they so choose. If you are trying to say that a utilitarian has more calculations to make in order to arrive at the decision that something is ethical or not is a valid point.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 11:10:01 AM
The purpose of ethics is to define how one ought to act in a given scenario.
Could not have said it better!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on April 26, 2013, 11:54:09 AM
Could not have said it better!
But if you won't act that way, who cares
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 12:15:06 PM
But if you won't act that way, who cares

On a personal level, even if one doesn't do the ethical thing all the time if he/she understands what they ought to do, it will hopefully guide them regarding the larger scale more important decisions in life. On a global level, it was people like Kant who eventually led to the concept of patient autonomy in medicine (in other words, that one can go to the doctor and opt not to have a surgery done even if the doctor insists it's a mistake, that would not have been the case 50-100 years ago).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on April 26, 2013, 12:19:29 PM
But if you won't act that way, who cares

Meh. Though I used to feel that way, the fact is that people struggle when presented with situations where there is pull from either side of one's yetzer, especially if the "other" side pulls harder.

Failing to adhere to one's ethics in such a scenario does not mean anything except that he failed that single test, and remains alive, though scathed, to fight another day.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 26, 2013, 12:25:06 PM
On a personal level, even if one doesn't do the ethical thing all the time if he/she understands what they ought to do, it will hopefully guide them regarding the larger scale more important decisions in life. On a global level, it was people like Kant who eventually led to the concept of patient autonomy in medicine (in other words, that one can go to the doctor and opt not to have a surgery done even if the doctor insists it's a mistake, that would not have been the case 50-100 years ago).
Meh. Though I used to feel that way, the fact is that people struggle when presented with situations where there is pull from either side of one's yetzer, especially if the "other" side pulls harder.

Failing to adhere to one's ethics in such a scenario does not mean anything except that he failed that single test, and remains alive, though scathed, to fight another day.
+1

A person has to know where he is going in life. Even if you are not there yet, as long as you have a direction you want to be, you are far better of than a guy who has no direction at all.

Better to be lost some of the time than all the time...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 12:29:45 PM
Better to be lost some of the time than all the time...

Better to have loved and lost than never to have...

Woops wrong thread  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 26, 2013, 12:31:54 PM
Better to have loved and lost than never to have...
Says you. :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 12:39:23 PM
Says you. :P

Actually Alfred Lord Tennyson, but I would concur with his sentiment.  ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on April 26, 2013, 01:31:36 PM
Actually Alfred Lord Tennyson, but I would concur with his sentiment.  ;D
  "Better is the man who lived than loved"    "Better to have not loved and lived than to marry and die" -College Fraternity mottos :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 01:35:56 PM
  "Better is the man who lived than loved"    "Better to have not loved and lived than to marry and die" -College Fraternity mottos :P

Lol!!!

The LSAT would argue that those statements are not mutually exclusive. It is better to have lived than loved but best of all is to live & love! These probably are better to not decipher :-X
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 04:29:39 PM
...to make up a reason to get out of jury duty?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 05:06:09 PM
...to make up a reason to get out of jury duty?

Depends if you believe in the government and enforcing its laws.

When you argued in the jury duty thread that it is our civic duty to attend jury, you were in essence arguing in favor of the Social Contract Theory. This is the theory that most strongly influenced the Declaration of Independence and the founding of American society. It argues that by virtue of people living in the USA and enjoying the rights associated with it they are contractually bound to the responsibilties of a US citizen.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on April 26, 2013, 05:29:20 PM
...to make up a reason to get out of jury duty?
To me the biggest reason not to get out of jury duty is basically "put up or shut up." You can't go around b*tching about the justice system if you're not willing to do your part to "fix" it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 05:44:42 PM
Depends if you believe in the government and enforcing its laws.

When you argued in the jury duty thread that it is our civic duty to attend jury, you were in essence arguing in favor of the Social Contract Theory. This is the theory that most strongly influenced the Declaration of Independence and the founding of American society. It argues that by virtue of people living in the USA and enjoying the rights associated with it they are contractually bound to the responsibilties of a US citizen.
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 26, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
To me the biggest reason not to get out of jury duty is basically "put up or shut up." You can't go around b*tching about the justice system if you're not willing to do your part to "fix" it.

Well put. What if employers of people who get called for jury duty were obligated to give $ for some amount of time (like 50% pay for up to a week) ala paid vacation?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on April 26, 2013, 06:06:40 PM
Well put. What if employers of people who get called for jury duty were obligated to give $ for some amount of time (like 50% pay for up to a week) ala paid vacation?
You mean another tax?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 27, 2013, 09:22:30 PM
You mean another tax?  :)

No, I mean as a civic duty  ;).

I personally wouldn't support it, but I think that may help convince people to attend jury duty.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on April 29, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
-1000
care to explain afkaik its a mfurashe pasuk and the rambam and shuchan aruch bring it down lhalacha
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: easy48 on May 01, 2013, 10:19:58 PM
I love how "bring down" has become common vernacular when meaning to say the word "cite".  הערה בעלמה.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on May 01, 2013, 10:26:49 PM
I love how "bring down" has become common vernacular when meaning to say the word "cite".  הערה בעלמה.

Halacha works from the top down, so "bringing down" doesn't sound wrong to me.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: easy48 on May 01, 2013, 10:42:39 PM
Halacha works from the top down, so "bringing down" doesn't sound wrong to me.

Top down??  Do you mean to say it doesnt work bottom up?  Duh..  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on May 01, 2013, 10:43:44 PM
Top down??  Do you mean to say it doesnt work bottom up?  Duh..  :)

Your point?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on May 08, 2013, 02:11:52 AM
Office Depot in malcha and bought a printer for 300₪. It never worked and always gabe me issues. I had to change ink cartridges. Every one i buy the chip is not being read by the printer. It seems like the printer is broken bec the Hp guy he doesn't understand why its not working.
Truth is the worker there claimed it was a great model and all, i didnt have a smartphone then so i took his word. I came back and it was basically discontinued a yr before i bought it. So much so they don't make the ink that it says to get on the box. They made a universal ink for printers that are outdated.

How un-ethical is it to buy a new Hp from the same place on my Amex and then dispute/warranty protection?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on May 08, 2013, 05:10:36 AM
Office Depot in malcha and bought a printer for 300₪. It never worked and always gabe me issues. I had to change ink cartridges. Every one i buy the chip is not being read by the printer. It seems like the printer is broken bec the Hp guy he doesn't understand why its not working.
Truth is the worker there claimed it was a great model and all, i didnt have a smartphone then so i took his word. I came back and it was basically discontinued a yr before i bought it. So much so they don't make the ink that it says to get on the box. They made a universal ink for printers that are outdated.

How un-ethical is it to buy a new Hp from the same place on my Amex and then dispute/warranty protection?

Ethical? No. Would I do it anyway? Maybe... :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on May 08, 2013, 06:26:54 AM
Ethical? No. Would I do it anyway? Maybe... :P
Now that makes sense.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on May 08, 2013, 06:27:41 AM
Now that makes sense.

See? I'm learning. ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on May 08, 2013, 06:29:49 AM
See? I'm learning. ;D
There are only so many young grasshoppers here and your not one of them.  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on May 08, 2013, 06:32:35 AM
There are only so many young grasshoppers here and your not one of them.  ;)

Ummm... I can interpret that several ways. Mind elaborating a bit? ???
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on May 08, 2013, 06:42:28 AM
Ummm... I can interpret that several ways. Mind elaborating a bit? ???
Don't you love it when I do that.  :)

Young grasshoppers need to learn and you are past the young grasshopper stage. Ever see the tv sries "Kung Fu"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on May 08, 2013, 06:55:36 AM
Ethical? No. Would I do it anyway? Maybe... :P
nit sure why its so unethical. They screwed me over. I deserve my money back. Its a mekach Taos.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 08, 2013, 07:09:39 AM
nit sure why its so unethical. They screwed me over. I deserve my money back. Its a mekach Taos.
Do 2 wrongs make an unethical action ethical? ;)
Don't get me wrong, I'm with moishebatchy on this one...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: lfas25 on May 08, 2013, 08:24:23 AM
nit sure why its so unethical. They screwed me over. I deserve my money back. Its a mekach Taos.

If you dispute it with amex who looses the money Amex or the store?
If it's that amex doesn't pay the store or gets their money back its not as bad in my opinion then if amex takes it as a loss.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on May 08, 2013, 09:29:19 AM
nit sure why its so unethical. They screwed me over. I deserve my money back. Its a mekach Taos.

I figure if you have to ask why it's "so unethical?" that implies that somewhere you must realize it isn't 100% kosher.


 It's either ethical or not. Is there a gray area?

I don't think it's ethical.
I see where you are coming from and understand why you may feel it's "owed" to you and that you have the right to do that. But honestly? Ethical it's not.
Like MoishyBatchy said though whether you choose to do it or not is another story.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on May 08, 2013, 09:32:30 AM
I figure if you have to ask why it's "so unethical?" that implies that somewhere you must realize it isn't 100% kosher.


 It's either ethical or not. Is there a gray area?

I don't think it's ethical.


i was waiting for a Gemara Kup pipe up :-). I asked it that way to see who would say your point exactly. The truth is i am with batchy but i prob won't do it. Ill call chase later and complain.

But what would i say to Amex in order for them not to pay Office Depot? Return protection? Or warranty?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on May 08, 2013, 10:22:25 AM
i was waiting for a Gemara Kup pipe up :-). I asked it that way to see who would say your point exactly. The truth is i am with batchy but i prob won't do it. Ill call chase later and complain.

But what would i say to Amex in order for them not to pay Office Depot? Return protection? Or warranty?

How long ago did you buy it? On which cc?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Drago on May 08, 2013, 10:36:43 AM
Halachically, I believe it's assur to steal from s/o an item, even if he stole from you first.
It's possibly okay to steal back the same exact item, but I forget off the top of my head.
Since this is a different physical item, I believe it would be incorrect to do.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on May 08, 2013, 01:31:24 PM
Halachically, I believe it's assur to steal from s/o an item, even if he stole from you first.
It's possibly okay to steal back the same exact item, but I forget off the top of my head.
Since this is a different physical item, I believe it would be incorrect to do.
so i asked a rav today. Surprisingly enough he said, if your barrar that they stole the item it might be ok to pull a shtick with Amex. Obviously im not. Its broken but i never tried to being it back or tell them they lied to me about being brand new. (Hp doesn't even make the cartridge anymore) but he said if you were certain, then def would be ok to go buy the item.

R' berkowitz said a similar case, what if Reuvan and shimon went together and bought laptops. Reuvan lost his warranty and his broke can he use shimons warranty instead...he said yes, they officially have a chiyiv to u.


Chase freedom.
Called them today - they said get me the card number which it was purchased they'll maybe give me the money back
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on May 08, 2013, 03:52:18 PM
so i asked a rav today. Surprisingly enough he said, if your barrar that they stole the item it might be ok to pull a shtick with Amex.
I dont get it.
If Reuven stole from me, can I go ahead and steal from Shimon?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on May 08, 2013, 11:11:59 PM

 :)

http://img.ifcdn.com/images/ba91a0d4231d9aea8d55e42c32ca427b7d9decda_1.jpg
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on May 09, 2013, 12:46:46 AM
:)

http://img.ifcdn.com/images/ba91a0d4231d9aea8d55e42c32ca427b7d9decda_1.jpg
Should have looked at his left arm, it said no.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on June 10, 2013, 10:38:19 AM
I don't understand exactly how corporate codes work with rental cars but it seems to me that there are definitely ethical issues with using a code from a corporation that you are not affiliated with.
1.  How about an orginazation that you have a loose affiliation with like chabad or bmg?  Any ethical issues?  How about Halacha?

2.  I don't understand how hertz vouchers work.  I would love to buy a few and save money on a car rental.  As I have never seen these I can't even begin to understand what the issues are.  Are there any issues?  Is it squeaky clean? 
Thank you
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 05, 2013, 06:23:57 AM
For some reason the coffee machine is working without putting in any money. Should I try to find out why or just keep drinking the free coffee?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: jj1000 on July 05, 2013, 10:47:05 AM
For some reason the coffee machine is working without putting in any money. Should I try to find out why or just keep drinking the free coffee?
Reminds me of freakonomics bit on bagels.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 12, 2013, 11:29:05 AM
I know the answer to this, just interested in what others would say.

Moving to a new country and I am getting insurance. I had a claim last year and therefore no one will insure at reasonable rates. However, I was also insured at the same time on my grandparents policy and I have a letter from them which shows coverage and no claims. Can I just send that in and not mention that I have a claim?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 11:54:28 AM
A better question: How COULD it be ethical?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
I know the answer to this, just interested in what others would say.

Moving to a new country and I am getting insurance. I had a claim last year and therefore no one will insure at reasonable rates. However, I was also insured at the same time on my grandparents policy and I have a letter from them which shows coverage and no claims. Can I just send that in and not mention that I have a claim?
What are they asking for, proof of insurance?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 12, 2013, 01:30:53 PM
What are they asking for, proof of insurance?
Yeah, history
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 12, 2013, 01:31:36 PM
What are they asking for, proof of insurance?
history of insurance
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on July 12, 2013, 01:50:05 PM
I know the answer to this, just interested in what others would say.

Moving to a new country and I am getting insurance. I had a claim last year and therefore no one will insure at reasonable rates. However, I was also insured at the same time on my grandparents policy and I have a letter from them which shows coverage and no claims. Can I just send that in and not mention that I have a claim?

Is there any reason to believe that the issue you had should recur and cost the insurance company any money?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 01:51:09 PM
Is there any reason to believe that the issue you had should recur and cost the insurance company any money?

Hold on, papi, because that's a slippery slope.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 12, 2013, 01:59:37 PM
Hold on, papi, because that's a slippery slope.
Correct.
I would not use this as a rational to commit insurance fraud (which is what I think this would constitute) but it is a little crazy that I have ten years driving experience with one accident and I can barely get insurance because that accident happen to have occurred in the last year
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 12, 2013, 03:12:18 PM
Aren't you afraid of that coming up in an investigation in case of a serious incident Gd forbid?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
Remind me of a story.

Guy from Brooklyn I know owned a Ferrari. Lives the summers in Deal. Registered car in NJ to save on insurance. Guy totals said $300,000 Ferrari. Guy makes claim on Insurance.

Insurance investigates. Insurance offers guy two options:

1) We'll pay you the $300,000 and report you for insurance fraud, risking a decade or so in Rikers; or
2) Eat the loss.

He ate it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 12, 2013, 03:23:13 PM
Remind me of a story.

Guy from Brooklyn I know owned a Ferrari. Lives the summers in Deal. Registered car in NJ to save on insurance. Guy totals said $300,000 Ferrari. Guy makes claim on Insurance.

Insurance investigates. Insurance offers guy two options:

1) We'll pay you the $300,000 and report you for insurance fraud, risking a decade or so in Rikers; or
2) Eat the loss.

He ate it.
Stupid thing so many people do.
Here in NYC I know a handful of friends and relatives who register in upstate, just to save a few Benjamins over a year.
You're up to lose so much more on that day when you are about to take advantage for the years you paid insurance.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 03:24:51 PM
I would take option #1 since I had no intent to commit fraud. You could also counter they pay the 300k or be reported for blackmail.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 12, 2013, 03:32:53 PM
I would take option #1 since I had no intent to commit fraud. You could also counter they pay the 300k or be reported for blackmail.  :P
Intent or not, it is fraud.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 03:34:23 PM
Well you do need intent, but intent can be implied.

Won't take rocket scientists on the jury to find that implied intent.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 03:35:14 PM
Intent or not, it is fraud.
Calling henche again. I thought they have to show intent, no?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: easy48 on July 12, 2013, 03:35:17 PM
Intent or not, it is fraud.

-1 you need to have intent to commit fraud. I agree with option 1.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on July 12, 2013, 03:36:47 PM
How is registering in a place that isn't your primary residence not intent to fraud?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 12, 2013, 03:40:26 PM
-1 you need to have intent to commit fraud. I agree with option 1.
Calling henche again. I thought they have to show intent, no?
It is illegal to provide an address other than your primary residence address.
You don't need intention to get a cheaper rate from the insurance company for it to be illegal.

ETA: Dan beat me to it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on July 12, 2013, 03:41:47 PM
How is registering in a place that isn't your primary residence not intent to fraud?
"I was staying there at the time I got the policy, so I wanted to make sure the paperwork would arrive"
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 12, 2013, 03:42:31 PM
"I was staying there at the time I got the policy, so I wanted to make sure the paperwork would arrive"
Read my above post.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on July 12, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
Read my above post.
I saw it after i typed my answer, decided to post anyways to answer Dan's question, you raised another issue.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 03:46:30 PM
Well you do need intent, but intent can be implied.

Won't take rocket scientists on the jury to find that implied intent.
Forgot we had AJK.

I justed wanted  to save some money. Charge me the higher cost and and payout the 300k.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 03:51:17 PM
Forgot we had AJK.

I justed wanted  to save some money. Charge me the higher cost and and payout the 300k.

Ha. If only.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 12, 2013, 03:52:17 PM
Aren't you afraid of that coming up in an investigation in case of a serious incident Gd forbid?
I have no intent on submitting this. Just wanted to hear what everyone thought
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 03:54:17 PM
-1 you need to have intent to commit fraud. I agree with option 1.

And then you'd hope they allow a lot of visitors in Rikers.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
Ha. If only.
It has happened.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 12, 2013, 04:02:16 PM
It has happened.

So that we don't miscommunicate, WHAT exactly has happened?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 12, 2013, 07:13:07 PM
So that we don't miscommunicate, WHAT exactly has happened?
+1, putting down your summer home / second home and getting paid after they find out. You would think the agent/insurer has some obligation to find out where your primary residence is.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on July 13, 2013, 10:27:02 PM
Hold on, papi, because that's a slippery slope.

In my defense I assumed he was referring to health insurance (in hindsight I'm not sure why) and while you may be right from a strictly ethical point of you I could see the likelihood of recurrence as being an important factor in the decision.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Moishebatchy on July 13, 2013, 10:33:59 PM
In my defense I assumed he was referring to health insurance (in hindsight I'm not sure why) and while you may be right from a strictly ethical point of you I could see the likelihood of recurrence as being an important factor in the decision.

+1

Car insurance is a whole 'nother story
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yuneeq on July 14, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
Remind me of a story.

Guy from Brooklyn I know owned a Ferrari. Lives the summers in Deal. Registered car in NJ to save on insurance. Guy totals said $300,000 Ferrari. Guy makes claim on Insurance.

Insurance investigates. Insurance offers guy two options:

1) We'll pay you the $300,000 and report you for insurance fraud, risking a decade or so in Rikers; or
2) Eat the loss.

He ate it.

In his defense, most of these people that have extremely luxurious cars, use their cars specifically in Deal while on summer vacation and barely, if ever, drive such cars in Brooklyn. If that was the reality in his case, would it still constitute fraud?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 14, 2013, 02:07:54 PM
+1, putting down your summer home / second home and getting paid after they find out. You would think the agent/insurer has some obligation to find out where your primary residence is.

I find that HIGHLY unlikely, but I can't argue with your experience. Insurance companies aren't in the business of paying out claims; they're in the business of making $. And if they see even a keyhole worth of room to deny a claim, they'll drive a truck through it.

In his defense, most of these people that have extremely luxurious cars, use their cars specifically in Deal while on summer vacation and barely, if ever, drive such cars in Brooklyn. If that was the reality in his case, would it still constitute fraud?

I imagine that as not the case, else he wouldn't have ate the $300k.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 14, 2013, 02:38:48 PM
In his defense, most of these people that have extremely luxurious cars, use their cars specifically in Deal while on summer vacation and barely, if ever, drive such cars in Brooklyn. If that was the reality in his case, would it still constitute fraud?
Why not?
They don't ask for the car's primary residence.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: skyguy918 on July 14, 2013, 05:22:11 PM
I find that HIGHLY unlikely, but I can't argue with your experience. Insurance companies aren't in the business of paying out claims; they're in the business of making $. And if they see even a keyhole worth of room to deny a claim, they'll drive a truck through it.

While as a rule this might be true, you really have to know how the insurers deal with the specific issue at hand. For example, many brokers will tell you not to list your kids on the insurance for as long as possible. They'll say that if there is an accident, the insurer will pay out the claim and just require you to put the kid on going forward (at which point you'll really be paying a lot because it'll be a young operator with a bad record). They will almost never deny the claim or try to back bill you.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2013, 05:25:25 PM
(at which point you'll really be paying a lot because it'll be a young operator with a bad record)
Then buy a junker for a couple hundred bucks and insure them on that car.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 14, 2013, 05:52:20 PM
Then buy a junker for a couple hundred bucks and insure them on that car.  :)

Won't help for liability, which is often the biggest portion of a premium.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2013, 06:27:37 PM
Won't help for liability, which is often the biggest portion of a premium.
I thought collision for kids. Also you can get the minimum on that car.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 14, 2013, 06:28:24 PM
I thought collision for kids. Also you can get the minimum on that car.

Not following.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2013, 06:34:51 PM
Not following.
In our state collision and liability are separate. I thought the collision part was higher for kids than the liability part. Collision is not required but liability is. You can get very low amounts on liability since the car will not be driven anyway.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 14, 2013, 06:37:00 PM
In our state collision and liability are separate. I thought the collision part was higher for kids than the liability part. Collision is not required but liability is. You can get very low amounts on liability since the car will not be driven anyway.

Never heard of a state where liability and collision are NOT separate.

Both L and C would be higher, but L would be even higher than C.

Right.

You may be ABLE to get low amounts, but if if there is ever an accident by that child with that car with that low coverage, and the victim can and will go after the one at fault (or his policy holder) personally.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2013, 06:43:00 PM
I was not sure how no fault states work so I worded that way. I thought C was higher than L for kids but it looks like I am wrong. When you do this with a junker you make sure the car is never driven.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on July 14, 2013, 06:44:52 PM
Even in no fault states, there are instances where the victim can sue to the one at fault. And it's precisly instances like that where a low ball coverage amount will end up making someone's day/life verrry unpleasant.

Unless of course the defendant is judgment-proof.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on July 14, 2013, 06:54:13 PM
Why not?
They don't ask for the car's primary residence.
-1
This may be state specific, but in at least two states I know firsthand that they go by "where the car is parked for the majority of the year", not where your primary residence is. You can have your primary residence in State A, but if car is parked in State B for more than half the year, you must purchase insurance in  State B for that car.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: skyguy918 on July 14, 2013, 07:35:14 PM
Then buy a junker for a couple hundred bucks and insure them on that car.  :)

Mostly +1 to AJK's series of responses. I'm pretty sure the majority of the increase in premium is going to be the liability part. Assuming the kid isn't listed as primary on any of the cars on the policy, I don't think adding them will change the collision or comprehensive much if at all.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 14, 2013, 07:53:56 PM
Mostly +1 to AJK's series of responses. I'm pretty sure the majority of the increase in premium is going to be the liability part. Assuming the kid isn't listed as primary on any of the cars on the policy, I don't think adding them will change the collision or comprehensive much if at all.
Mandatory in my state for L is 40/20/15. For a teenager this is less than $100. Collision and comprehension is not required. You also need to consider plates and sticker fees.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 24, 2013, 11:40:16 PM
3 Browser method?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 24, 2013, 11:45:36 PM
Depends on what you're using it for.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 25, 2013, 12:23:05 AM
3 Browser method?
It is done to take an advantage of a flaw in the system. I will go with no.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on July 25, 2013, 12:25:33 AM
Banks are well aware of it, they have the option to block it (see Citi/Barclays) and they don't.
Their problem.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 25, 2013, 12:33:16 AM
Banks are well aware of it, they have the option to block it (see Citi/Barclays) and they don't.
Their problem.
Has nothing to do with the banks. Has to do with the way the CRA's work.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on July 25, 2013, 12:37:02 AM
Has nothing to do with the banks. Has to do with the way the CRA's work.
-0.5.
But even if we will go by your statement, it comes out that you're saying it's unethical to apply for 2 cards on the same day just because you are aware of a CRA policy that most people have never heard of.  Seems like a stretch.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 25, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
-0.5.
But even if we will go by your statement, it comes out that you're saying it's unethical to apply for 2 cards on the same day just because you are aware of a CRA policy that most people have never heard of.  Seems like a stretch.
Sorry forgot the title of the thread (thought is was "is it unethical"). I do not feel it is unethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 26, 2013, 12:30:03 AM
Has nothing to do with the banks. Has to do with the way the CRA's work.
I search for CRA on dan's deals shows nothing so.... What are CRA's?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mclovin on July 26, 2013, 12:32:15 AM
I search for CRA on dan's deals shows nothing so.... What are CRA's?
credir reporting agencies (ie experian)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Centro on July 26, 2013, 12:34:19 AM
I search for CRA on dan's deals shows nothing so.... What are CRA's?
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_bureau).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 26, 2013, 12:37:05 AM
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agency).
No
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Centro on July 26, 2013, 12:42:01 AM
No
Correct, changed.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 26, 2013, 12:45:39 AM
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_bureau).
AHA
Now that I know what you are talking about, it is Ethical to trick the people lending you money?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 26, 2013, 12:48:08 AM
AHA
Now that I know what you are talking about, it is Ethical to trick the people lending you money?
No it is not but I don't think everyone would agree you are tricking them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 26, 2013, 12:49:37 AM
No it is not but I don't think everyone would agree you are tricking them.

Ok, give me another explanation.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 26, 2013, 12:54:15 AM
Ok, give me another explanation.
The CRA combines some pulls made on the same day into one. Maybe that is the intended way it works. Where does the "trick" part come in?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 26, 2013, 12:58:32 AM
The CRA combines some pulls made on the same day into one. Maybe that is the intended way it works. Where does the "trick" part come in?
But not others. Do they tell you, "hey get 3 cards for the price of one"?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 26, 2013, 01:01:29 AM
But not others. Do they tell you, "hey get 3 cards for the price of one"?
Not sure I understand. I apply for three cards from Chase one after the other. Why do they need to pull my report three times in less than a minute?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on July 26, 2013, 02:53:02 AM
But not others. Do they tell you, "hey get 3 cards for the price of one"?

I'm not sure why you're barking up this tree. The MBM is from the least ethically questionable tactics in the points and miles playbook. And by least I mean not questionable at all.

I don't even understand your hava amina.

A credit pull is not a "price". It is a tool they use to make a decision on the applicant's credit worthiness. It's not cheating to apply for cards at a time you know you're more likely to be accepted. Besides, they are offering bonuses, and advertising on sites like Dan's and other P&M blogs precisely because they want people to apply for many cards. These are their products, and they want to sell as much of them as possible. They need to mitigate risk, but they always want to extend you as much credit as they can, because the more you spend, the more they make.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 26, 2013, 06:02:43 PM

I don't even understand your hava amina.

A credit pull is not a "price". It is a tool they use to make a decision on the applicant's credit worthiness. It's not cheating to apply for cards at a time you know you're more likely to be accepted. Besides, they are offering bonuses, and advertising on sites like Dan's and other P&M blogs precisely because they want people to apply for many cards. These are their products, and they want to sell as much of them as possible. They need to mitigate risk, but they always want to extend you as much credit as they can, because the more you spend, the more they make.

The reason I ponder this issue is because the CRA counts the number of credit pulls you have in order to gauge your credit worthiness, which is exactly why you prefer to get 3 cards at the same time. Credit pulls are not only - as you wrongfully claim- a tool to figure out your credit history, as they are also a counting mechanism to see how many time you apply.

They do want costumers, but do not want costumers with too many credit pulls.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on July 27, 2013, 09:53:07 PM

The reason I ponder this issue is because the CRA counts the number of credit pulls you have in order to gauge your credit worthiness, which is exactly why you prefer to get 3 cards at the same time. Credit pulls are not only - as you wrongfully claim- a tool to figure out your credit history, as they are also a counting mechanism to see how many time you apply.

They do want costumers, but do not want costumers with too many credit pulls.

That's why it makes sense to do an app o Rama, so when you apply the amount of pulls on your report is less.

The only way it would be unethical was if you were intending to be delinquent in your payments, and were trying to get extra credit without intention to pay.

Even in that scenario, it's the latter portion that would make it unethical, as opposed to the seeking credit part.

You do not have an obligation to tell a potential lender that you are seeking other loans unless they specifically asked you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on July 27, 2013, 11:27:32 PM
Or find the (unlocked) room on each floor where they keep the spare mattresses, and help yourself.

(Reminder: please keep discussions of ethics in the "Is It Ethical?" thread.)
Why has this thread been confused with is it (or rather it is) stealing?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on July 27, 2013, 11:47:12 PM
The only way it would be unethical was if you were intending to be delinquent in your payments, and were trying to get extra credit without intention to pay.  Even in that scenario, it's the latter portion that would make it unethical, as opposed to the seeking credit part. You do not have an obligation to tell a potential lender that you are seeking other loans unless they specifically asked you. 

So you are saying effectually that if you intend t pay back the money, the banks have nothing to worry about.  However it could be argued that the banks have a right to gauge your risk by using all the tools they have put in place, and by bypassing them you place the lender at a higher risk level. If you lost your job, or were hit by another unforeseen misfortune who would be left holding the bag? Your lender.

To claim that nothing is given in a loan when the borrower intends on paying back seams a bit much to me.

As to not needing to disclose your debts to the lender because they are public, it is because they can be seen being public, however with this maneuver you hide you true borrowing power.

So far the best answer I have heard is that they can stop it, and they don't.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on July 28, 2013, 03:02:15 AM

So you are saying effectually that if you intend t pay back the money, the banks have nothing to worry about.  However it could be argued that the banks have a right to gauge your risk by using all the tools they have put in place, and by bypassing them you place the lender at a higher risk level. If you lost your job, or were hit by another unforeseen misfortune who would be left holding the bag? Your lender.

To claim that nothing is given in a loan when the borrower intends on paying back seams a bit much to me.

As to not needing to disclose your debts to the lender because they are public, it is because they can be seen being public, however with this maneuver you hide you true borrowing power.

So far the best answer I have heard is that they can stop it, and they don't.

They can just add a question to the application. Have you signed up for credit recently? How many credit cards will you sign up for today? You seem to want to approach the transaction from their side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on July 28, 2013, 09:40:27 AM
So far the best answer I have heard is that they can stop it, and they don't.
This might be the best answer.  ;)
The CRA combines some pulls made on the same day into one. Maybe that is the intended way it works.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Red on August 22, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
What do you guys think?

I owe a neighbor some money and would like to pay him back by paying his bill in the local makolet. Obviously I would be paying by cc, is it unfair to the shopkeeper to have to pay the fees involved as he would otherwise be getting cash from my neighbor?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on August 22, 2013, 04:58:39 PM
I see no problem with this.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on August 22, 2013, 05:01:31 PM
I see no problem with this.
+1
No more than it being a problem with paying anyone with a CC making him absorb the CC fees.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: lfas25 on August 22, 2013, 05:04:56 PM
What do you guys think?

I owe a neighbor some money and would like to pay him back by paying his bill in the local makolet. Obviously I would be paying by cc, is it unfair to the shopkeeper to have to pay the fees involved as he would otherwise be getting cash from my neighbor?

I think the bigger question is if your neighbor knows / agrees to let you pay his bill, or he wants you to give him cash.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Red on August 22, 2013, 05:06:10 PM
I think the bigger question is if your neighbor knows / agrees to let you pay his bill, or he wants you to give him cash.
He agreed.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: lfas25 on August 22, 2013, 05:06:39 PM
He agreed.

I see no problem then.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yehuda S on October 24, 2013, 12:08:04 AM
Do you guys think it's ethical to subscribe to banana republic emails for the 25% discount multiple times from the same account?

How about different accounts?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on October 24, 2013, 08:04:49 AM
Do you guys think it's ethical to subscribe to banana republic emails for the 25% discount multiple times from the same account?

How about different accounts?

Do you really think that Banana republic (or any major retailer) doesn't realize that people have multiple email address and can claim the coupon multiple times? If they did not want that they would find a different way to verify someone's identity.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: joeb1 on October 24, 2013, 10:52:51 AM
oh so thats the answer to everything...... ::)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 24, 2013, 11:20:32 AM
The way I see it is that all these big stores want to get you to buy things at full price, so they overcharge and then give frequent "sales" where they bring the price down to normal.
So buying anything at full price=overpaying.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HP58 on October 24, 2013, 02:20:16 PM
The way I see it is that all these big stores want to get you to buy things at full price, so they overcharge and then give frequent "sales" where they bring the price down to normal.
So buying anything at full price=overpaying.
+1. I live by the same philosophy. ;D
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 24, 2013, 02:25:38 PM
+1. I live by the same philosophy. ;D
And therefore you can shoplift (I'm not saying the question above is shoplifting, but this line of reasoning has no relevance to the conversation)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HP58 on October 24, 2013, 02:29:15 PM
And therefore you can shoplift (I'm not saying the question above is shoplifting, but this line of reasoning has no relevance to the conversation)
Not sure how that excuses your comparison to shoplifting... :o
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 24, 2013, 02:36:10 PM
I think it's very relevant. If 25% off is the price that Banana Republic intended to sell their merchandise at, and they only marked up the price to make you feel like you got a deal (as evidenced by how often they have these "1 time only" sales), than I see no problem in taking advantage of these "discounts".
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 24, 2013, 02:38:00 PM
I think it's very relevant. If 25% off is the price that Banana Republic intended to sell their merchandise at, and they only marked up the price to make you feel like you got a deal (as evidenced by how often they have these "1 time only" sales), than I see no problem in taking advantage of these "discounts".
To me, it's just a question of whether they allow you to do so or not (if that's what you meant then fine). IT's not a question of whether you believe this is the price you should be paying.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on October 24, 2013, 02:38:28 PM
And therefore you can shoplift (I'm not saying the question above is shoplifting, but this line of reasoning has no relevance to the conversation)

There's no logic to your argument.

Achas Veachas was saying:

The way I see it is that all these big stores want to get you to buy things at full price, so they overcharge and then give frequent "sales" where they bring the price down to normal.

Meaning that the retailer's strategy is to sell by offering steep discounts, and therefore makes it easy to come upon codes, and therefore it isn't unethical to use those codes.

So buying anything at full price=overpaying.

Was not an argument about the ethics, rather an observation based on the aforementioned retail strategy.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 24, 2013, 02:39:46 PM
There's no logic to your argument.

Achas Veachas was saying:

Meaning that the retailer's strategy is to sell by offering steep discounts, and therefore makes it easy to come upon codes, and therefore it isn't unethical to use those codes.

Was not an argument about the ethics, rather an observation based on the aforementioned retail strategy.
To me, it's just a question of whether they allow you to do so or not (if that's what you meant then fine). IT's not a question of whether you believe this is the price you should be paying.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 24, 2013, 02:45:04 PM
To me, it's just a question of whether they allow you to do so or not (if that's what you meant then fine). IT's not a question of whether you believe this is the price you should be paying.
That's what I was saying with more Hat'amah...
Even if their official T&C don't allow it, I'm sure the CEO of BR himself wouldn't mind...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on October 24, 2013, 02:46:37 PM
That's what I was saying with more Hat'amah...
Even if their official T&C don't allow it, I'm sure the CEO of BR himself wouldn't mind...
That's a dangerous argument, that's all I'm saying. You can say all the svaros you want, you just have to know whether they are true
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on October 24, 2013, 02:53:15 PM
That's a dangerous argument, that's all I'm saying. You can say all the svaros you want, you just have to know whether they are true

Sometimes they stack, and sometimes they don't. I doubt it is just carelessness on their part.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Crazy tools on October 24, 2013, 02:55:02 PM
The 25 percent off is for the email address, doubt it says anywhere only one email address per person, therefore with every email you give them your entitled. As far as the +1to get a few to one email is a different story.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on October 24, 2013, 02:58:05 PM
The 25 percent off is for the email address, doubt it says anywhere only one email address per person, therefore with every email you give them your entitled. As far as the +1to get a few to one email is a different story.

You get +n copies of the email...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dan on October 24, 2013, 03:12:02 PM
The fact that they haven't stopped the stacking business means that they don't mind racking up more sales even at lower margins.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: yehuda S on October 24, 2013, 03:56:09 PM
If everyone feels so strongly about Banana's CEO wanting you to pay less with an email discount for an item that has a higher price tag, I'm sure you'd also be ok with someone calling them and asking directly, right?  ;D

Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Crazy tools on October 24, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
If everyone feels so strongly about Banana's CEO wanting you to pay less with an email discount for an item that has a higher price tag, I'm sure you'd also be ok with someone calling them and asking directly, right?  ;D


Try getting through to the CEO to place an order. But the dumb phone reps just won't do it without a code
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HP58 on October 24, 2013, 06:55:02 PM
Try getting through to the CEO to place an order. But the dumb phone reps just won't do it without a code
And when you're done please post info in Corporate Contact Info thread  ;D ...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mmermss on October 27, 2013, 12:23:58 PM
And therefore you can shoplift (I'm not saying the question above is shoplifting, but this line of reasoning has no relevance to the conversation)
:o
Not sure how that excuses your comparison to shoplifting... :o
+1
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 27, 2013, 01:02:02 PM
I one time heard someone ask rav Herschel schachter from yu about using someone else's wireless and he said it was גניבה.
Someone asked him but doesn't the fact that he didn't password protect it show that he's not makpid?  He said, maybe yes and maybe no, so don't steal it based on svara.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on October 27, 2013, 01:16:01 PM
I one time heard someone ask rav Herschel schachter from yu about using someone else's wireless and he said it was גניבה.
Someone asked him but doesn't the fact that he didn't password protect it show that he's not makpid?  He said, maybe yes and maybe no, so don't steal it based on svara.

Can't compare an unknown individual with a multi-billion dollar organization.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: chaimmayer on October 27, 2013, 01:19:14 PM
Because.....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on October 27, 2013, 07:30:23 PM
Because.....

Because you have no idea what an individual may or may not be thinking but you can make a pretty educated guess that the company knows how to make money off of their coupon campaigns. I'm not saying its a forgone conclusion that banana intends for ppl to reuse these coupons (I personally believe they do) but there is no chance in the world that they did not discuss the possibility (eventuality really) that this is how it will be used.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
Is it ethical to copy the mp3s of, for example, a Shmuel Kunda tape if I have the tape already?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: beeweegee on December 03, 2013, 01:52:09 PM
Is it ethical to copy the mp3s of, for example, a Shmuel Kunda tape if I have the tape already?
If it's for yourself, don't see why not. If you want to give that copy to someone else, that's a different story, because they DONT have the tape already.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 03, 2013, 01:52:37 PM
I believe it is, what's the difference if you copy it off your tape or off someone else once you paid for it?

ETA:
If it's for yourself, don't see why not. If you want to give that copy to someone else, that's a different story, because they DONT have the tape already.
I was assuming it was for himself, for someone else I would agree with beeweegee
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: henche on December 03, 2013, 01:56:04 PM
Is it ethical to copy the mp3s of, for example, a Shmuel Kunda tape if I have the tape already?

I hold it is fine, you purchased a copyright license for the material.

Same way you can copy your CD onto your computer even though that is "reproducing it" (I think the copyright laws now have a bfeirush heter for that, because it obviously needs to be ok.)

That's why I hold of always buying tapes which are cheaper and then copying a friends CD
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2013, 02:14:39 PM
Thanks guys, that's what I figured as well, just wanted to hear other opinions.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
I hold it is fine, you purchased a copyright license for the material.

Same way you can copy your CD onto your computer even though that is "reproducing it" (I think the copyright laws now have a bfeirush heter for that, because it obviously needs to be ok.)

That's why I hold of always buying tapes which are cheaper and then copying a friends CD
how convert tape to mp3?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: whYME on December 03, 2013, 02:26:53 PM
how convert tape to mp3?
I have a converter. (I've had it for a year and a half and I never actually used it)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: buggie on December 05, 2013, 01:06:42 AM
is it ethical to wear a shaitel with a fake skin in front that makes (or any other thing to that effect)a shaitel look for real
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on December 05, 2013, 01:14:37 AM
Why not?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: buggie on December 05, 2013, 01:16:02 AM
cuz isnt the whole idea to differntiate between married women
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on December 05, 2013, 01:18:08 AM
If that's the reason I don't see how you can wear a shaitel in first place.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: kracked dude on December 05, 2013, 01:18:37 AM
is it ethical to wear a shaitel with a fake skin in front that makes (or any other thing to that effect)a shaitel look for real
Why is this an ethical question? Maybe post in the halacha thread
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: meshugener on December 05, 2013, 01:19:02 AM
In any case, this is the ethical thread, not halacha/minhag.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 01:28:19 AM
Why is this an ethical question?
...because most here don't understand the difference between ethics and religion.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: buggie on December 05, 2013, 01:30:47 AM
it seems cv is one of em -that is the not understanding   vein kan hamakom leharich
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 05, 2013, 09:40:42 AM
it seems cv is one of em -that is the not understanding   vein kan hamakom leharich
It seems you are trying to argue that halacha (religion) is ethics. You are not incorrect. The problem is that halacha can only be considered "ethics" if you consider halacha to be true. There are plenty that do not consider that the case (see most non-Jews and plenty of Jews as well), and therefore an ethics thread such as this must be based on truths that can be intuited without a prior fundamental belief.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 09:43:12 AM
It seems you are trying to argue that halacha (religion) is ethics. You are not incorrect. The problem is that halacha can only be considered "ethics" if you consider halacha to be true. There are plenty that do not consider that the case (see most non-Jews and plenty of Jews as well), and therefore an ethics thread such as this must be based on truths that can be intuited without a prior fundamental belief.
Going to have to hire you as my writer.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 05, 2013, 09:47:27 AM
I hope we are not restarting this argument again...
Wake me up in 10 pages lol
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 05, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
Going to have to hire you as my writer.  :)
I'm not cheap... It would take at least a roll of Shallot's sushi  ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 09:52:01 AM
I hope we are not restarting this argument again...
Wake me up in 10 pages lol
They will only be half way through.  :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 09:54:25 AM
I'm not cheap... It would take at least a roll of Shallot's sushi  ;)
If that's all it will take then I will deliver also. Do they have tamper proof tape like Milt's?  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 05, 2013, 09:57:54 AM
If that's all it will take then I will deliver also. Do they have tamper proof tape like Milt's?  :)

Alol!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on December 14, 2013, 11:12:11 PM
...because most here don't understand the difference between ethics and religion.  :)
i can use a writer myself but i will try to explain you my point. the reason why most here dont understand the difference is because most here are jewish and in our religion we dont decide what is ethical because pretty much all ethics are disussed and have a source so ppl here have a answer based on religion
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 15, 2013, 06:36:22 AM
i can use a writer myself but i will try to explain you my point. the reason why most here dont understand the difference is because most here are jewish and in our religion we dont decide what is ethical because pretty much all ethics are disussed and have a source so ppl here have a answer based on religion
I fully understand your point. Your religion like my religion decides if something is ethical or not based on its teachings. I am able to think outside my religion. Someone that canít think outside their religion has been brainwashed.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 15, 2013, 09:53:13 AM
You make the false assumption that an individual who chooses not to think outside their religion is incapable of doing so.

Many on here have done the former, while being quite capable of doing the latter.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 15, 2013, 10:52:36 AM
You make the false assumption...
AFAIK I didn't assume anything this time.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 15, 2013, 11:08:11 AM
Well only you would know if you assumed something, but it should did seem that you implicitly did so.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 15, 2013, 11:13:07 AM
Well only you would know if you assumed something, but it should did seem that you implicitly did so.
Sentence:
1 - fact
2 - AFAIK fact
3 - fact
4 - statement
 :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on December 15, 2013, 11:14:23 AM
+ Context = implicit assumption.

But I'm happy I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on December 15, 2013, 11:17:10 AM
But I'm happy I'm wrong.
If you are happy I am happy!  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 15, 2013, 01:28:05 PM
I fully understand your point. Your religion like my religion decides if something is ethical or not based on its teachings. I am able to think outside my religion. Someone that canít think outside their religion has been brainwashed.

Well put! As the good book says...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on December 15, 2013, 06:30:01 PM
I fully understand your point. Your religion like my religion decides if something is ethical or not based on its teachings. I am able to think outside my religion. Someone that canít think outside their religion has been brainwashed.
I disagree why can't you agree with the ethics of your religion
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on December 19, 2013, 05:56:33 PM
I disagree why can't you agree with the ethics of your religion

Not everything that is prohibited in Judaism is prohibited on an ethical basis. It wouldn't be a departure from the religion to say that it isn't unethical to wear a certain type of hair covering, even were that hair covering prohibited by the religion. All of the prohibitions in the Torah that are based on spiritual concerns have no overt basis in ethics. Some of those prohibitions are specific to certain classes of people, (Jews vs. gentiles, priests vs. levites, etc.) and therefore cannot be inherently unethical.

A general way to divide them up would be that interpersonal laws are based in ethics and laws between man and God are based on spirituality.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on December 19, 2013, 06:30:16 PM
Not everything that is prohibited in Judaism is prohibited on an ethical basis. It wouldn't be a departure from the religion to say that it isn't unethical to wear a certain type of hair covering, even were that hair covering prohibited by the religion. All of the prohibitions in the Torah that are based on spiritual concerns have no overt basis in ethics. Some of those prohibitions are specific to certain classes of people, (Jews vs. gentiles, priests vs. levites, etc.) and therefore cannot be inherently unethical.

A general way to divide them up would be that interpersonal laws are based in ethics and laws between man and God are based on spirituality.
I agree that not everything is "ethical" but I absolutely disagree with your chiluk
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on December 19, 2013, 07:51:00 PM
I agree that not everything is "ethical" but I absolutely disagree with your chiluk

So give me an example of a chok that is ethics based.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on December 19, 2013, 10:02:28 PM
So give me an example of a chok that is ethics based.
Chok does not equal spirituality. It is perfectly ethical to be a godly person
And FTR R Shlomo Wolbe says that all morals are based on the level of a persons fear of God (which does make sense) so it all bills down to how spiritual you are, but again that, just FTR
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on December 20, 2013, 12:39:09 PM
Chok does not equal spirituality. It is perfectly ethical to be a godly person
And FTR R Shlomo Wolbe says that all morals are based on the level of a persons fear of God (which does make sense) so it all bills down to how spiritual you are, but again that, just FTR

I didn't say it was unethical to be spiritual. I said that it wasn't unethical to not be spiritual

If a person lives his whole life as an honest, kind person who doesn't harm others, and lives by the maxim "do unto others as you would have done to you", they are completely ethical even if they never prayed a day in their life.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on December 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
I didn't say it was unethical to be spiritual. I said that it wasn't unethical to not be spiritual

If a person lives his whole life as an honest, kind person who doesn't harm others, and lives by the maxim "do unto others as you would have done to you", they are completely ethical even if they never prayed a day in their life.
I rest my case
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: itsyehuda on December 21, 2013, 07:41:45 PM
I rest my case

?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 06, 2014, 07:17:39 PM
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 06, 2014, 07:19:56 PM
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
You can do all that but in no way would it be ethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Crazy tools on March 06, 2014, 07:20:14 PM
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
Just cuz he told you that the estimate should be around 1500 didn't mean you have an estimate of that price. He came down for a reason!!
Obviously the job was more complicated than he originally thought...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on March 06, 2014, 07:24:18 PM
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
IMO Don't show the estimate but tell him that is what you got quoted, that's business.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 06, 2014, 07:25:15 PM
You can do all that but in no way would it be ethical.

That's why I ask.  My moral compass doesn't always point north.

Just cuz he told you that the estimate should be around 1500 didn't mean you have an estimate of that price. He came down for a reason!!
Obviously the job was more complicated than he originally thought...

Nah, I think he saw my cars and decided to charge me more.  He's a sub to my general contractor buddies that use him all the time and know his rate on this fairly common procedure.

I guess we'll see where they come in tomorrow and I'll go from there.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 06, 2014, 07:35:40 PM
That's why I ask.  My moral compass doesn't always point north.
...and no two members use the same compass. Do what you think is right.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Crazy tools on March 06, 2014, 07:38:02 PM
Do what you think is right.
Father tells me that all the time..... kind of makes doing the wrong thing really hard. In most cases you really do know what's right, you're just looking for a way out of it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 06, 2014, 11:00:29 PM
We need some electrical work done and a general contractor buddy sent over his electrician and told me to expect the estimate to be around $1,500.  His guy gave me an estimate of over $2,000.

I have another company coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.  Can I say I have an estimate for $1,500?  Can I photoshop the original estimate to show $1,500 to try to get the new company to meet/beat/come close?
Just tell them your general contractor said he thinks his guy can do it for $1500.

Also, why don't you talk to your general contractor and ask him what the story is (ie why'd his guy come in so much higher than his ballpark estimate).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 06, 2014, 11:36:18 PM
Imho the best way to deal with bids is to tell them both that there is another bidder and not tell them the amount.
Whoever come in lower is the winner. Its also 100% ethical
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: aygart on March 06, 2014, 11:36:59 PM
Imho the best way to deal with bids is to tell them both that there is another bidder and not tell them the amount.
Whoever come in lower is the winner. Its also 100% ethical
aka blind auction
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 07, 2014, 02:41:04 PM
That's why I ask.  My moral compass doesn't always point north.
good to see some honesty. i would suggest you learn some morality from the ppl you despise
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36324.60
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 07, 2014, 04:12:00 PM
good to see some honesty. i would suggest you learn some morality from the ppl you despise
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36324.60

Not sure what you mean or where I said I despise anyone.  Seems like I offended you a few months ago in that thread and I'm sorry for that. 

To update, I didn't say anything to the new electrician; I figured I'll see where the chips fall.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 12, 2014, 01:01:58 AM
Not sure what you mean or where I said I despise anyone.
reread what you wrote its fair to assume you feel that way olso. and as i explained there its not about being offended its a protest on the sonai torah, (inyanai deyoma) as far as what i think of you this is nothing new someone who can talk that way about the hashems finest, its not just your moral compass that doesn't always point north.
back on topic if you care about my opinion: you question has two parts stealing and morality. if the person believes you and does the work at a cheaper rate only because of what you told him its genavas daas and mateh yisroel/akum. but if its a guy who knows that you may be stretching the truth like a typical joe the plumber gives a estimate and you tell him someone else will do it at %25 less he knows that you dont want the other guy or you wouldnt be waisting your time haggling and he know that the two estimates may not be apples to apples. then it can be mutter because its understood its just a way of talking, i would line up the morality with the halacha
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 12, 2014, 02:06:22 PM
reread what you wrote its fair to assume you feel that way olso. and as i explained there its not about being offended its a protest on the sonai torah, (inyanai deyoma) as far as what i think of you this is nothing new someone who can talk that way about the hashems finest, its not just your moral compass that doesn't always point north.
back on topic if you care about my opinion: you question has two parts stealing and morality. if the person believes you and does the work at a cheaper rate only because of what you told him its genavas daas and mateh yisroel/akum. but if its a guy who knows that you may be stretching the truth like a typical joe the plumber gives a estimate and you tell him someone else will do it at %25 less he knows that you dont want the other guy or you wouldnt be waisting your time haggling and he know that the two estimates may not be apples to apples. then it can be mutter because its understood its just a way of talking, i would line up the morality with the halacha

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.  Despite your assumption, I don't despise anybody.  I obviously don't necessarily respect the same people you do.

Lastly, as I mentioned above, I didn't say anything to the electrician when they came to give me an estimate.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2014, 09:24:11 AM
PGGM?
anyone else have a problem with it?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2014, 09:27:21 AM
I can see this crossing the line for some/many. I did use it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 18, 2014, 11:29:37 AM
Personally, I have a problem with any fake spending.  So VR or GC is fine, but buying and returning is not, so that would include PGGM.  I do GC method.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ckmk47 on March 18, 2014, 11:38:42 AM
PGGM?
anyone else have a problem with it?
I didn't like it either.  I bought gift cards.  The fact that Amex gave me a credit, although their T & C don't allow GCs, is their problem/ business.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 18, 2014, 11:40:30 AM
+1 AA's policy of not transferring gc's doesn't bother me either.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ckmk47 on March 18, 2014, 12:11:52 PM
+1 AA's policy of not transferring gc's doesn't bother me either.
;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2014, 02:18:38 PM
I can see this crossing the line for some/many. I did use it.
Personally, I have a problem with any fake spending.  So VR or GC is fine, but buying and returning is not, so that would include PGGM.  I do GC method.
I didn't like it either.  I bought gift cards.  The fact that Amex gave me a credit, although their T & C don't allow GCs, is their problem/ business.
I love these threads.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 18, 2014, 02:37:54 PM
All you did was quote the last 3 posts (one being your own).  What's funny?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 18, 2014, 05:34:50 PM
What's funny?
The way we justify things we do.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 19, 2014, 01:55:36 PM
Some things are justifiable, some things aren't.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: HP58 on March 19, 2014, 02:16:04 PM
Some things are justifiable, some things aren't.
Yup. Problem is by most people the dividing line is: What I do is justifiable, what you do is not.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2014, 02:32:20 PM
Problem is by most people the dividing line is: What I do is justifiable, what you do is not.
Thats the funny part.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 19, 2014, 04:02:12 PM
The way we justify things we do.

I don't hear anyone justifying it.  I hear a lot of, "yeah, it's wrong.  Sometimes I feel bad about it, but I do it anyway."  I'm the same way.  :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2014, 04:26:31 PM
I don't hear anyone justifying it.
How about getting GC's when it is against the T&C's?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 19, 2014, 05:20:43 PM
How about getting GC's when it is against the T&C's?

I only saw one justification.  Most of us are just saying we do it anyway.

Quote
The fact that Amex gave me a credit, although their T & C don't allow GCs, is their problem/ business.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 19, 2014, 05:22:26 PM
I only saw one justification.  Most of us are just saying we do it anyway.

Hardly an ethical argument...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on March 19, 2014, 07:46:37 PM
How about getting GC's when it is against the T&C's?
It's not against the T&C's to buy an airline GC with an Amex Plat!
If Amex wants to give a credit for a GC despite the T&C's saying the credit will not be given, that is their own "generosity". The consumer here did not do anything against the T&C's.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 19, 2014, 07:52:56 PM
What's funny?
The way we justify things we do.
If Amex wants to give a credit for a GC despite the T&C's saying the credit will not be given, that is their own "generosity". The consumer here did not do anything against the T&C's.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 19, 2014, 11:11:31 PM
It's not against the T&C's to buy an airline GC with an Amex Plat!
If Amex wants to give a credit for a GC despite the T&C's saying the credit will not be given, that is their own "generosity". The consumer here did not do anything against the T&C's.
What you're saying MIGHT make sense if you were buying that GC anyways, if you are buying it specifically to get the credit despite knowing that it's against the T&C that would be unethical in my book...

Disclaimer: I never said there is something wrong with being unethical....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: SamKey on March 20, 2014, 12:46:19 AM
What you're saying MIGHT make sense if you were buying that GC anyways, if you are buying it specifically to get the credit despite knowing that it's against the T&C that would be unethical in my book...

Disclaimer: I never said there is something wrong with being unethical....
is it unethical to be unethical? :P
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 20, 2014, 02:32:54 AM
is it unethical to be unethical? :P
No, it just means nobody is perfect.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 20, 2014, 08:07:10 AM
is it unethical to be unethical? :P
It's unethical but then again...
I never said there is something wrong with being unethical....
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: noturbizniss on March 23, 2014, 10:00:15 PM
I was wondering what people think of the following?
I just broke a phone that I bought on Friday (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=39770.0), and got to thinking that I could have (and if Amex gives me the money for it, I might) bought the phone at Costco for full price. Seeing as they have a 90 day return policy, would it not be possible to get a phone, and keep it until the phone I want actually comes out and then just return phone 1 and buy phone 2? Or even do that another time if the phone I want comes out 6 months later? I would agree that doing it every 90 days is over the line, but how gray (or clearly black) is just a one or two time return to to the release of my desired phone?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Super Speed on March 23, 2014, 11:14:51 PM

I was wondering what people think of the following?
I just broke a phone that I bought on Friday (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=39770.0), and got to thinking that I could have (and if Amex gives me the money for it, I might) bought the phone at Costco for full price. Seeing as they have a 90 day return policy, would it not be possible to get a phone, and keep it until the phone I want actually comes out and then just return phone 1 and buy phone 2? Or even do that another time if the phone I want comes out 6 months later? I would agree that doing it every 90 days is over the line, but how gray (or clearly black) is just a one or two time return to to the release of my desired phone?
I saw this story in way too many topics it's coming out of my nose already! You probably should've started your own thread and asked all your questions there! :)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Freddie on March 23, 2014, 11:30:41 PM
This thread is gold mine! I never knew what I was missing. All the juicy tricks all in one place!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Dr Moose on March 24, 2014, 05:44:52 AM
All the juicy tricks all in one place!
LOL
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on March 24, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
I was wondering what people think of the following?
I just broke a phone that I bought on Friday (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=39770.0), and got to thinking that I could have (and if Amex gives me the money for it, I might) bought the phone at Costco for full price. Seeing as they have a 90 day return policy, would it not be possible to get a phone, and keep it until the phone I want actually comes out and then just return phone 1 and buy phone 2? Or even do that another time if the phone I want comes out 6 months later? I would agree that doing it every 90 days is over the line, but how gray (or clearly black) is just a one or two time return to to the release of my desired phone?
most amex cards give max 1k (except plat) and 300$ on return protection.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 24, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
Scenario: As I'm walking out of Target, I glance at my receipt and realize that the cashier neglected to scan a pretty expensive item.  Before I share what I did- What would you do?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: sky121 on March 24, 2014, 05:38:06 PM
Scenario: As I'm walking out of Target, I glance at my receipt and realize that the cashier neglected to scan a pretty expensive item.  Before I share what I did- What would you do?

I'd go back in. If it was something cheap then it would depend on the moment.  Sometimes laziness takes over and if it's small amount I might just let it go.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: marko on March 24, 2014, 05:40:49 PM
Scenario: As I'm walking out of Target, I glance at my receipt and realize that the cashier neglected to scan a pretty expensive item.  Before I share what I did- What would you do?

I would say keep it. Its "Tyos Akum" which halachically permissible. Legally not your problem either
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 24, 2014, 05:44:21 PM
I would say keep it. Its "Tyos Akum" which halachically permissible. Legally not your problem either

Definitely taus akum, but therein lies the rub... this isn't the halacha thread. It's the "ethical" thread.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: judahk88 on March 24, 2014, 05:52:11 PM
Definitely taus akum, but therein lies the rub... this isn't the halacha thread. It's the "ethical" thread.
+1.  My wife had the same thing happen to her in Target and she called me and asked if she should go back in I told her 100%.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 24, 2014, 06:08:24 PM
I was wondering what people think of the following?
I just broke a phone that I bought on Friday (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=39770.0), and got to thinking that I could have (and if Amex gives me the money for it, I might) bought the phone at Costco for full price. Seeing as they have a 90 day return policy, would it not be possible to get a phone, and keep it until the phone I want actually comes out and then just return phone 1 and buy phone 2? Or even do that another time if the phone I want comes out 6 months later? I would agree that doing it every 90 days is over the line, but how gray (or clearly black) is just a one or two time return to to the release of my desired phone?
i am having a hard time understanding your q.
do you mean to ask if its ok to buy if you plan on returning as referred to by some here to "borrow" from a store?
what does it have to do with waiting for a new one
you say costco has a 90 day return policy. is this something new or just for phones
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dsw193 on March 24, 2014, 07:53:06 PM
When I signed up for a costco membership this was the reps sales pitch given that I was planning on buying a PC saying how I can keep on trying different ones until I find one that I"m happy with that they don't care something like they work by sales per day stock price not revenue
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: A3 on March 24, 2014, 10:10:55 PM
+1.  My wife had the same thing happen to her in Target and she called me and asked if she should go back in I told her 100%.

you told her, 100%
that sentence can finish more then one way ;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: notanonymous on March 24, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
Scenario: As I'm walking out of Target, I glance at my receipt and realize that the cashier neglected to scan a pretty expensive item.  Before I share what I did- What would you do?
This is not answering 'Is it erhical', but I bli neder would jump (and have jumped) at the chance to make a KH.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: noturbizniss on March 24, 2014, 10:59:31 PM
most amex cards give max 1k (except plat) and 300$ on return protection.
This is purchase protection which is $1k per incident

i am having a hard time understanding your q.
do you mean to ask if its ok to buy if you plan on returning as referred to by some here to "borrow" from a store?
what does it have to do with waiting for a new one
you say costco has a 90 day return policy. is this something new or just for phones
Was asking the thoughts on "borrowing it"  I want the new s5 or note 4 so was asking about "borrowing" a note 3 from costco till they come out.  The 90 day thing is standard electronics return policy
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 25, 2014, 10:14:00 AM
Definitely taus akum, but therein lies the rub... this isn't the halacha thread. It's the "ethical" thread.
I have only one code governing my life. If I determine something based on halacha, there's not then another step to the inquiry (or "prong" as you would say) to determine whether it's ethical.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 25, 2014, 10:28:33 AM
Good for you. But there is halacha, and there is doing the "right" thing. Not always do they go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 25, 2014, 10:29:00 AM
I have only one code governing my life. If I determine something based on halacha, there's not then another step to the inquiry (or "prong" as you would say) to determine whether it's ethical.

Wow.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ckmk47 on March 25, 2014, 10:32:35 AM
I have only one code governing my life. If I determine something based on halacha, there's not then another step to the inquiry (or "prong" as you would say) to determine whether it's ethical.
Kadaish atzmecha bemutar lach, v'al tehu novol b'rishus haTorah.
There's allowed, and yet refrain.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2014, 10:33:08 AM
Good for you. But there is halacha, and there is doing the "right" thing. Not always do they go hand in hand.
+1
You can always be Metaher a Sheretz with K"N Ta'amim
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Ergel on March 25, 2014, 10:43:27 AM
+1
You can always be Metaher a Sheretz with K"N Ta'amim
Not a good mashal. A sheretz isn't actually tahor, no matter how many svaros you give (that is an exercise in academia, and a strange one at that as tosfos points out)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Not a good mashal. A sheretz isn't actually tahor, no matter how many svaros you give (that is an exercise in academia, and a strange one at that as tosfos points out)
True, a Naval Bereshus Hatorah would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 25, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
Good for you. But there is halacha, and there is doing the "right" thing. Not always do they go hand in hand.
I think you misunderstood.  I don't look to do things which are halachically permissible in a technical way. I mean I try to act in the way halacha dictates one should act in a given scenario.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Aaaron on March 25, 2014, 10:52:06 AM
I think you misunderstood.  I don't look to do things which are halachically permissible in a technical way. I mean I try to act in the way halacha dictates one should act in a given scenario.

We're not discussing situations where halacha dictates the way one should act, rather where one may act.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 25, 2014, 10:55:36 AM
There's always a right and wrong answer
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Freddie on March 25, 2014, 11:25:32 AM
I have only one code governing my life. If I determine something based on halacha, there's not then another step to the inquiry (or "prong" as you would say) to determine whether it's ethical.

I know that you probably meant this "l'chumra" and not "l'kula" but it came off the opposite. It would lead many to believe that as long as the shuras hadin permits something, then you are all up on it.

Vos men tor nit, tor men nit. Oon vos men meg, darf men nit.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 25, 2014, 11:58:19 AM
I think you misunderstood.  I don't look to do things which are halachically permissible in a technical way. I mean I try to act in the way halacha dictates one should act in a given scenario.

I know that you probably meant this "l'chumra" and not "l'kula" but it came off the opposite. It would lead many to believe that as long as the shuras hadin permits something, then you are all up on it.

What he said ^
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 25, 2014, 05:36:00 PM
Definitely taus akum, but therein lies the rub... this isn't the halacha thread. It's the "ethical" thread.
- 1. please dont make incorrect  halacha statments as a fact. ethics may be a opinion , halacha is not
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: skyguy918 on March 25, 2014, 05:37:42 PM
- 1. please dont make incorrect  halacha statments as a fact. ethics may be a opinion , halacha is not
Care to elaborate on why it's halachically not taus akum?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 25, 2014, 05:46:23 PM
- 1. please dont make incorrect  halacha statments as a fact. ethics may be a opinion , halacha is not

Please have your LOR speak to mine. K, thanks.

Or feel free to cite to your source as to why this is NOT taus akum, and I'd be happy to bring it to his attention.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 25, 2014, 06:38:35 PM
Care to elaborate on why it's halachically not taus akum?
hate typing and have a hard time expressing myself when i type but i will try.
there are a couple of different points to address.
a)first of all t.a can only be applied to the owner of a item the cashier is not a bailim to make a toas , the only way he can do that is if they are given the rights by the owner to make mistakes there is no reason to believe that is the case (this has nothing to do with the fact that a manager is given leeway to decide evan though he is not the owner) if you think that they are given permission to make a mistake then on your way out of the store show the manager he will definitly not let you keep it, evan if once you left the store you would call and ask they often say next time you come bring it back and if they say you can keep it, its a cs tactic not because the cashier was given the bailus to make a mistake therefore its not t.a. (if they say you can keep it then your ok without t.a.
before we contin lets clear up a common mistake just to be clear t.a. does not mean a mistake was made it does not include all mistakes it means if he did a mechira (limited to the item, payment, and change which is part of payment) based on a assumption which was incorrect the michira is still chal. it does not include a mistake made outside of the challos mechira
b)when there is a itemized receipt it clearly states what you payed for anything not on there doesnt belong to you. if they wouldnt use cash register and the cashier would collect all your items and say "its a total of $xx" then it may be t.a. but a itemized reciept/bill its in other words saying this is what you are paying for any additional items you did not pay for and are not part of the mechira it makes no difference if they handed it to you or you take it off a shelf an put it in your bag it wasnt part of the mechira. similar to if the cashier puts all you items into a bag and the bag had somthing in it, it wouldn't belong to you
c)being that i am not sure exactly sure what happened at the register, lets start with scenario 1. if you are buying a couple of items and the cashier thinks you bought 5 soda and you really have six, you were given a price for six only because they thought you had five, that would be t.a but if you did have 5 soda and you olso had a chips that he didnt notice there is no mistake in the mechira he simply never sold you the chips. so if the cashier miscounted then it would be t.a. but if it was stuck or attached or hidden under a different item and therefore didnt get scanned it may not be t.a.
Please have your LOR speak to mine. K, thanks.
did you actually ask him about this case or about something else and you decided its similar
Or feel free to cite to your source as to why this is NOT taus akum, and I'd be happy to bring it to his attention.
you can explain him the above. if he dismisses it ask him for a source
its possible that you will find ppl that will disagree on part of the above but to make a statment "def taos akum" is def not true
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: CountValentine on March 26, 2014, 02:30:52 AM
Please change the name of this thread to ďHow intelligent people can really sound stupidĒ.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 26, 2014, 05:17:26 PM
Please change the name of this thread to ďHow intelligent people can really sound stupidĒ.
?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 26, 2014, 05:26:48 PM
Please change the name of this thread to ďHow intelligent people can really sound stupidĒ.
-1 Thought he sounded intelligent.

Here's the scenario: he scans everything, I didn't notice him scanning the big item in my cart, so I say "did you get this also?" he says, "yup, you're all set."  On my way out, to make sure, I check the receipt, and find that he didn't scan it. 

This wouldn't take care of your first issue of him not being the owner, but I'd think it would fall within the definition of "taos."
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: @Yehuda on March 26, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
Find it interesting this hasn't been discussed in the thread yet... Churning. Do you think it's ethical?
(Leaving out AMEX who at least until recently has knowingly allowed churning after 12 months).
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 26, 2014, 05:37:50 PM
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: good sam on March 26, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
Good for you. But there is halachathe T&Cs, and there is doing the "right" thing. Not always do they go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 26, 2014, 05:45:19 PM
Disagree those are the same.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: dans fan on March 26, 2014, 06:47:03 PM
Here's the scenario: he scans everything, I didn't notice him scanning the big item in my cart, so I say "did you get this also?" he says, "yup, you're all set."  On my way out, to make sure, I check the receipt, and find that he didn't scan it. 

This wouldn't take care of your first issue of him not being the owner, but I'd think it would fall within the definition of "taos."
thats true in your case since he thought he charged you for it, it would be a toas , but point number two is olso a issue being that there is a itemized bill, its as if the bill says you are paying x amount of money for item xyz. anything not on there is not part of the mechira and is not taos akum. its true he made a mistake but a mistake doesnt make it toas akum. it can be compared to taking a item skipping the  cash regester and heading towards the door, you show your reciept from another purchase to the security at the door , he makes a mistake thinks you paid for it and lets you go,true there is a mistake but its not toas akum. taos akum is a type of a transaction, not a mistake
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: @Yehuda on March 26, 2014, 06:56:05 PM
How is it unethical if you follow the terms and conditions?
Was that in response to me? If it was, aren't the T&C clear that enrollment bonuses can only be earned for first time cardholders?
I'm betting you weren't talking to me so I'm just gonna go ahead and #awkward it.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 26, 2014, 07:14:25 PM
Was that in response to me? If it was, aren't the T&C clear that enrollment bonuses can only be earned for first time cardholders?
I'm betting you weren't talking to me so I'm just gonna go ahead and #awkward it.

No, I was.

But AFAIK, most T&Cs mention nothing of first timers, CMIIW.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: @Yehuda on March 26, 2014, 07:27:47 PM
No, I was.

But AFAIK, most T&Cs mention nothing of first timers, CMIIW.

Oh, hehe. Well, yeah pretty sure most of them do mention it. Just pulled up UMPE for example:
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: AJK on March 26, 2014, 07:35:03 PM
Seems you're right... let the debate begin!
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: @Yehuda on March 26, 2014, 07:46:52 PM
Seems you're right... let the debate begin!
Sweet!
Here's T&C from Citi Exec 100,000 which we all know no one around here is churning.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on March 26, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
An important point is that when you churn, you are not actually violating the T&C's. If anything, the bank is!
Let me explain: all you do is sign up for a card that you once had. Is that against the T&C's? No. It doesn't say the CARD is only for first timers; it says the BONUS is for first timers. So when the bank decides to bestow upon you a bonus that you were not promised, that is their prerogative.
Now, the newest Amex terms might actually say that the card itself is only for first timers - I don't remember right now, maybe someone can chime in. But certainly the other banks are as I said.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: @Yehuda on March 26, 2014, 07:56:46 PM
An important point is that when you churn, you are not actually violating the T&C's. If anything, the bank is!
Let me explain: all you do is sign up for a card that you once had. Is that against the T&C's? No. It doesn't say the CARD is only for first timers; it says the BONUS is for first timers. So when the bank decides to bestow upon you a bonus that you were not promised, that is their prerogative.
Now, the newest Amex terms might actually say that the card itself is only for first timers - I don't remember right now, maybe someone can chime in. But certainly the other banks are as I said.
That's interesting. I mean I always knew that the banks can (and sometimes have) decide(d) to not give you the bonus on a churn (i.e. a failed churn). So if a churn works, then the fact that they gave you the points is, like you said, their prerogative - no one forced them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2014, 08:33:22 PM
That's interesting. I mean I always knew that the banks can (and sometimes have) decide(d) to not give you the bonus on a churn (i.e. a failed churn). So if a churn works, then the fact that they gave you the points is, like you said, their prerogative - no one forced them.
I believe that's what the question is, is it ethical to fool a bank into giving you a bonus you aren't entitled to...
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: george on March 26, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
I believe that's what the question is, is it ethical to fool a bank into giving you a bonus you aren't entitled to...
Indeed, that is the question. I was just pointing out that churning generally does not involve directly violating the T&C's. (As opposed to, for example, selling an airline voucher.)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: rots5 on March 27, 2014, 05:19:04 AM
I just asked a shaila. 100% to as if checkout guy didn't scan. But u have to make it that he was able to have scanned it. Obviously if u hide it under the shirt that's called matte alum and its assure.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Myccrabbi on March 27, 2014, 07:29:46 PM
I passed by one of these signs that advertise signing u up for credit card, and thought of ripping it down. Whata u guys think?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mr. perfect on March 27, 2014, 08:41:00 PM
I passed by one of these signs that advertise signing u up for credit card, and thought of ripping it down. Whata u guys think?
maskim
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ayman on March 27, 2014, 10:34:27 PM
I passed by one of these signs that advertise signing u up for credit card, and thought of ripping it down. Whata u guys think?
Like this? Saw it in yeshiva and had to laugh.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/upehuba6.jpg)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: etech0 on March 27, 2014, 10:50:44 PM
If I make purchases for work with work's credit card, is it ethical to go through a portal to earn myself some cashback?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2014, 11:31:38 PM
If I make purchases for work with work's credit card, is it ethical to go through a portal to earn myself some cashback?
Assuming you aren't causing the business to lose money, that's what most of these portals are for, as an incentive for those doing the buying for businesses to buy from them.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: mr. perfect on March 27, 2014, 11:41:52 PM
Like this? Saw it in yeshiva and had to laugh.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/upehuba6.jpg)
these guys could rip peoples phants off
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Hirshthg on March 28, 2014, 12:11:50 AM
I just asked a shaila. 100% to as if checkout guy didn't scan. But u have to make it that he was able to have scanned it. Obviously if u hide it under the shirt that's called matte alum and its assure.
If you hide it under your shirt you were not matte him, it's all on you. Some call it shop lifting;)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: etech0 on March 28, 2014, 12:44:38 AM
Assuming you aren't causing the business to lose money, that's what most of these portals are for, as an incentive for those doing the buying for businesses to buy from them.
Guess that makes sense. The only thing that I've been thinking is that I could theoretically do the same and collect cashback for the office.
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 28, 2014, 12:46:07 AM
Guess that makes sense. The only thing that I've been thinking is that I could theoretically do the same and collect cashback for the office.
If you fly for business would you give the miles to the business?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: ayman on March 28, 2014, 12:52:37 AM
If you fly for business would you give the miles to the business?
There would seem to me to be a big diff bet miles flying and portal earnings. When flying the airline rewards the individual, no one else can get those miles. and it is against their T&C to sell them. With the portal, it would be no matter to set up an account for the company. (cashback like ebates etc. anyways)
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: etech0 on March 28, 2014, 01:01:10 AM
There would seem to me to be a big diff bet miles flying and portal earnings. When flying the airline rewards the individual, no one else can get those miles. and it is against their T&C to sell them. With the portal, it would be no matter to set up an account for the company. (cashback like ebates etc. anyways)
then there's the matter of using company time for personal gain. even though 1) I could always subtract the 10 seconds from my lunch break and 2) this IS ddf......
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: MC on April 30, 2014, 02:17:30 PM
dunno if this is the thread for it but... if I bought the kindle for a fellow DDF'er who paid me back and then requested the price adjustment from amazon, do I refund him the amount I get back?
Title: Re: Is It Ethical?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 30, 2014, 02:21:30 PM
dunno if this is the thread for it but... if I bought the kindle for a fellow DDF'er w