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DansDeals Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: dirah on January 30, 2012, 06:33:02 PM

Title: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 30, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Unreal that they still serve cholov stam.  Hopefully COs caterer wins out.
Unreal that OU requires all bread rolls served on airlines to be Hamotzi,
(and the card that comes with the meal tactfully suggest, "if washing is inconvenient on the plane, why don't you enjoy the breadroll at home", like, really!)
but don't require Cholov Yisroel.
Just goes to show that financial considerations trump Halachic ones.
[For those that don't get it, Mezonos CAN be made on Mezonos breadrolls if a number of criteria are met, whereas Cholov "Stam" is complete nada for those who don't accept Reb Moshe's Psak.]
</vent>
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on January 30, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: dirah on January 30, 2012, 06:38:22 PM
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
Why don't you respond to the objection?
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Side incomer on January 30, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
He said nothing wrong. We all know that in todays days business is way before halacha L"A. Every person working in the food industry can confirm that.
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2012, 06:56:02 PM
Unreal that OU requires all bread rolls served on airlines to be Hamotzi,
(and the card that comes with the meal tactfully suggest, "if washing is inconvenient on the plane, why don't you enjoy the breadroll at home", like, really!)
but don't require Cholov Yisroel.
Just goes to show that financial considerations trump Halachic ones.
[For those that don't get it, Mezonos CAN be made on Mezonos breadrolls if a number of criteria are met, whereas Cholov "Stam" is complete nada for those who don't accept Reb Moshe's Psak.]
</vent>
CO roll was mezonos and the breakfast was cholov yisroel.
Hopefully the CO caterer wins out over UA.
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on January 30, 2012, 07:27:45 PM
Unless you hold like a very mechudash chasam sofer , chalav stam is basically pashut.
If you are koveah seudah, you must make hamotzi and bentch, despite the fast that the criteria you mentioned were met.
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan. bircas hamazon is a din d'oraisa and according to most rishonim you are not yotze mid'oraisa with Al hamichya.
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: dirah on January 30, 2012, 07:50:16 PM
Unless you hold like a very mechudash chasam sofer , chalav stam is basically pashut.
If you are koveah seudah, you must make hamotzi and bentch, despite the fast that the criteria you mentioned were met.
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan. bircas hamazon is a din d'oraisa and according to most rishonim you are not yotze mid'oraisa with Al hamichya.
The only clear D'Orayso I see here is an Am Haoretz D'oRayso.

Cholov Yisroel: In his generation, Reb Moshe was pretty much the only Posek who was Matir Cholov Stam, even though, as he himself writes in his Teshuvos, he never personally relied on his Hetter, and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house. All of his contemporaries disagreed with him. The Chassam Sofer I presume you quote (YD 107) is pretty much status quo, and no need to re-hash it on DDF when it is all spelled out clearly in the many Teshuvos which discuss it.  See Igros Moshe [YD 1:46] where he himself writes that we Pasken like the Chassam Sofer, and therefore looks for other leniencies.

[The only "Chiddush" that there might be in the Chasam Sofer is his opinion that for those who pasken like the lenient opinions of the Radvaz and Pri Chadash, yet choose to be Machmir anyways, their Chumra takes on the status of a personal Neder which is D'Orayso. However, this is somewhat irrelevant to Chalav Stam, since we don't pasken like the lenient opinions in the first place, and even if we did, those opinions anyways cannot be relied upon for Cholov Stam, since they were only Mattir when there are no non-Kosher dairy animals in the country.]

Mezonos Rolls: As you yourself write "If you are Koveah Seudah". Did you ever entertain the thought that someone might not be interested in eating the whole airline meal, and just wants to snack on the pitifully-sized bread roll?

As to the last nonsense you wrote: "Chamurim Divrei Sofrim Yoser MiDivrei Torah". And Benching is not D'Orayso unless you ate Kdei Sviah.
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on January 30, 2012, 09:05:42 PM
The only clear D'Orayso I see here is an Am Haoretz D'oRayso.

Unnecessary

 
Quote

Cholov Yisroel: In his generation, Reb Moshe was pretty much the only Posek who was Matir Cholov Stam, even though, as he himself writes in his Teshuvos, he never personally relied on his Hetter, and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house.
 

Just because he says a Baal nefesh should be machmir does not mean he thought it was assur. He would have not been matir if he thought so.

 
Quote

 All of his contemporaries disagreed with him.
 

I think we can all agree he was the posek hador.

 
Quote

 The Chassam Sofer I presume you quote (YD 107) is pretty much status quo, and no need to re-hash it on DDF when it is all spelled out clearly in the many Teshuvos which discuss it.  See Igros Moshe [YD 1:46] where he himself writes that we Pasken like the Chassam Sofer, and therefore looks for other leniencies.

[The only "Chiddush" that there might be in the Chasam Sofer is his opinion that for those who pasken like the lenient opinions of the Radvaz and Pri Chadash, yet choose to be Machmir anyways, their Chumra takes on the status of a personal Neder which is D'Orayso. However, this is somewhat irrelevant to Chalav Stam, since we don't pasken like the lenient opinions in the first place, and even if we did, those opinions anyways cannot be relied upon for Cholov Stam, since they were only Mattir when there are no non-Kosher dairy animals in the country.]
 

The chasam sofer is mechadesh that an umdenah dmuchach does not suffice forChalav yisroel,, nothing short of yisroel roeh is ok. That to me is the best reason to be machmir but a big chiddush. Other earlier poskim being machmir doesn't necessarily prove anything as there was no umdanah demuchach based on government supervision.

 
Quote

Mezonos Rolls: As you yourself write "If you are Koveah Seudah". Did you ever entertain the thought that someone might not be interested in eating the whole airline meal, and just wants to snack on the pitifully-sized bread roll?
 

Possibly. But I believe most people would be nichshal in being kovea seudah and not washing.

I am not saying that people should follow these psakim. I am just saying why the OU deems one issue bigger than the other, and not for economic reasons

 
Quote

As to the last nonsense you wrote: "Chamurim Divrei Sofrim Yoser MiDivrei Torah".

And yet sofek drabanan lekula and poskim are always more mekil about derabanans than d'oraisahs. Go figure. Anything else you want to quote out of context?

Quote
And Benching is not D'Orayso unless you ate Kdei Sviah.

True. But this depends on how much you ate and how big of an appetite you have
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: YOSEF on January 30, 2012, 10:05:29 PM
@Ergel
+1;
Mezonos rolls (at least for Ashkanazim) is a much more modern day "invention".

AFAIK, everyone is maskim that Chalav Yisroel is not a din min HaTorah, even without R' Moshe; it was a din dirabonen when an Akum couldn't be trusted; R' Moshe was "michadesh" that an Akum could now be trusted again.

Regarding a mezonos roll, unless the "wheat/flour" is cooked with a liquid medium (water, oil, etc) and is baked instead (the "heat" medium), there are major issues when the baked good is even eaten with a meal according to many poskim.

As for the American OU, they are an organization in America, and IMHO, they have a right to follow the posek of America, without coming under fire.
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: aussiebochur on January 30, 2012, 11:42:35 PM
#IimploreYouDan
Lol!

If only the masses had (used) twitter...trending all day, every day ;)
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 04:51:08 AM
 
Unnecessary
Agreed. And so was your initial response.
 
Just because he says a Baal nefesh should be machmir does not mean he thought it was assur. He would have not been matir if he thought so.

Of course if Reb Moshe was Mattir, then he trusted his Psak. At the same time, let us put this Hetter in the context that Reb Moshe puts it in:

•   “For a Bal Nefesh, it is certainly appropriate to be stringent” (YD 1:48 and 1:49).
•   “Nevertheless, it is fitting to be stringent” (YD 2:31; no mention of Bal Nefesh).
•   Yeshivos should only serve Cholov Yisroel, despite the heavy financial burden (YD 2:35).
•   This leniency should only be relied on Bishas Hadchak, and not merely due to a small additional expense (YD 4:5).
•   If one's Minhag is to not rely on the Hetter, or he chose not to rely on the Hetter, he may not subsequently be lenient.

In any case, my point is not that Reb Moshe can’t be relied upon – CH”V to suggest such a thing. It is up to the individual, under the guidance of his LOR, to determine how he should conduct himself. 

My point is that a vast segment of the Frum community does not rely on Reb Moshe’s Psak. And, no orthodox rabbi worth his salt would suggest that someone completely disregard his stringent Minhag, due to Reb Moshe’s Psak. This would be going againt Reb Moshe himself. That being the case, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.
 
I think we can all agree he was the posek hador.
...which didn’t stop most of his contemporary poskim from disagreeing with him.
 
The chasam sofer is mechadesh that an umdenah dmuchach does not suffice forChalav yisroel,, nothing short of yisroel roeh is ok. That to me is the best reason to be machmir but a big chiddush. Other earlier poskim being machmir doesn't necessarily prove anything as there was no umdanah demuchach based on government supervision.

The Chasam Sofer does not mention a word about Umdenah DeMuchach. The gist of his words is that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan; a decree which remains completely in force even when the time and circumstances changes. He explains that this is the opinion of most Ashkenazi Rishonim and Achronim, and is binding for an Ashkenazi. [The Chasam Sofer adds that some Sefardi Rishonim disagree with the above, and that some Sfardi communities are therefore lenient. However, the Sdei Chemed writes that, in our time, the Sfardim have also adopted the position that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan.] Therefore, a Yid must actually see the milking process. [Of course, what constitutes “seeing” is not so simple, see Shulchan Oruch for details.] Otherwise, it is forbidden.

As I stated before, the Chasam Sofer's Teshuvah is pretty much status quo, and Reb Moshe himself agrees with it. Which is why he forbids buying milk directly from a farmer, (or any other situation which does not involve government oversight,) even when circumstantial evidence completely indicates that the milk is Tahor (YD 1:46). This is because the milking process was not seen .

If there is any Chiddush over here, it is the opinion of Reb Moshe, not the Chasam Sofer. Reb Moshe posits that one can rely on government oversight - a situation that the earlier Poskim did not speak about, and neither did the Chasam Sofer! Reb Moshe's reasoning is that government oversight not only constitutes a “Birur” (clarification), but actual R’Iyah (seeing) by a Yid. His reasons for this is way beyond the scope of a post on DDF, (you can check it up in YD 1:47 and 1:48,) but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to perceive that there is a big Chiddush here. And it is this Chiddush that most other Poskim disagree with, both from a Halachic perspective as well as a practical one. I could list some of their concerns briefly, but that would add at least another 50 lines to this post.
 
And yet sofek drabanan lekula and poskim are always more mekil about derabanans than d'oraisahs. Go figure. Anything else you want to quote out of context?
I didn’t quote anything out of context. One must be as careful – if not more careful – with a D’rabanan than with a D’Orayso.

The concept of Sofek D’Orayos L’Chumra and Sofek D’rabanan L’kula does not indicate that a Drabanan is "less important" than a D'Orayso. This is a common misconception. The reason that "Sofek D’rabanan L’kula" is because of "Hem Omru V’hem Omru".
 
True. But this depends on how much you ate and how big of an appetite you have
Yup. That is what Kdei Sviah means.

Even without R' Moshe; it was a din dirabonen when an Akum couldn't be trusted; R' Moshe was "michadesh" that an Akum could now be trusted again.
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense; absolute and complete nonsense.
I challenge you to find even one Posek who ever said such a thing. And don’t just throw out a name; please include a quote or reference.

As for the American OU, they are an organization in America, and IMHO, they have a right to follow the posek of America, without coming under fire.
As I said above, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.

Mods: I realize that this discussion has spiralled onto a tangent. Feel free to extract this discussion into a new thread.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on January 31, 2012, 01:10:24 PM
Rama, Shach, and Taz all hold that a goy can be trusted bmokom mirsus for drabanans for the status of an item. R' Moshe just took a [basically] completely muskam din and applied it to CHS. The reason to be machmir by CHS is if the gzeira of CA was made not because of a sofek that it might not be cows milk, rather a geziera "bli ta'am" if you will. IE even if you have a way around it, it's still assur
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 01:27:15 PM
I think from a practical standpoint the OU was trying to make it so that people don't mistake not washing when someone is being koveah seudah, even if the roll may be mezonos. OTOH, when it comes to chalav stam, the OU certifies products all the time that are not chalav yisrael and therefore not going to be as concerned with that.

In the end, I think it comes down to the fact that, practically speaking, most people on a plane won't wash on a mezonos roll even if they perhaps should be washing because they are being koveah seudah on it. By requiring the rolls to me hamotzi rolls from the beginning, they are making it so their consumers know in advance what to expect.

I don't think this is them taking a stand on what is more important in halacha (chalav yisrael vs. mezonos/hamozti), I think it is purely a practical decision based on what people's tendencies are on planes.

Just my $.002
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 01:31:43 PM
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?

Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on January 31, 2012, 01:36:53 PM
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?


Well if you have to wash on the mezonos roll anyway, then how will that help you?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
Well if you have to wash on the mezonos roll anyway, then how will that help you?
Eat it without being koveia seuda.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: skyguy918 on January 31, 2012, 01:43:48 PM
@dirah

I'm not sure what the cholov stam issue has to do with airline meals. As LAXtraveler pointed out, the OU gives a hechsher to cholov stam and cholov stam products. The fact that the"large segment of the community" that is machmir al pi R' Moshe and others won't be able to eat the airline meals with their hechsher is no more a concern to them than the fact that those people won't be able to eat any of their cholov stam products when they're on the ground. You can argue all day whether they should or should not be giving a hechsher on such products, but I don't think that's the same as this discussion.

You might argue that it's terrible of the airlines to use a caterer that uses cholov stam because they're excluding those who are makpid on cholov yisroel, but they won't care unless there is a big enough demand. And by the way, they are the ones making the financial decision by virtue of which caterer they choose. If one caterer is cholov stam and cheaper, and the airline chooses them over the more expensive cholov yisroel caterer, that's the airline's choice. To say that the OU is putting financial considerations over halachic ones on the basis of airline meals seems a little bit of a stretch.

Eat it without being koveia seuda.
That's a very tricky issue in halacha. It's not so simple as, "I don't want to wash, so I'm not making a kvius."
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Side incomer on January 31, 2012, 01:45:38 PM
That's a very tricky issue in halacha. It's not so simple as, "I don't want to wash, so I'm not making a kvius."
I am happy that we have poskim on the forums, or at least people that claim to be poskim.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 01:46:05 PM
That's a very tricky issue in halacha. It's not so simple as, "I don't want to wash, so I'm not making a kvius."
And washing in a stinky bathroom isn't a tricky issue?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on January 31, 2012, 01:52:00 PM
And washing in a stinky bathroom isn't a tricky issue?
My point was that writing mezonos on the wrapper doesn't necessarily take care of that issue
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mercaz1 on January 31, 2012, 01:54:43 PM
if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
no one is forcing anyone to order the kosher food meals and it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 01:56:24 PM
if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
no one is forcing anyone to order the kosher food meals and it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher
Wow, that answer sounded just like the FT'ers who get mad when someone jewish complains about no KSMLs being offered in first class on routes like EWR-LAS/SAN/SNA/ONT/SEA/PDX, etc...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mercaz1 on January 31, 2012, 01:57:53 PM
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 02:02:15 PM
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13317
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on January 31, 2012, 02:02:38 PM
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post
mny acronym for many?

EWR-LAS/SAN/SNA/ONT/SEA/PDX simple google search will bring up these airports. To start you off....

EWR-Newark
LAS-Vegas
SAN-San Diego
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mercaz1 on January 31, 2012, 02:06:01 PM
thanks
mny was a mistake
those FT'ers might have a point
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on January 31, 2012, 02:15:38 PM
thanks
mny was a mistake
those FT'ers might have a point
So why offer KSML at all?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
KSMLs are offered on routes the airline deem them to be profitable and will drive incremental business or on routes where they need to offer them for competitive reasons.
My guess is the SML decision makers don't even know about C"Y, or at least the UA ones don't as CO gives C"Y meals...

FT'ers just like to moan and groan when anyone wants special treatment (like KSMLs), but the bottom line is they're offered for a reason.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mercaz1 on January 31, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
i have no idea maybe certain routes have more jews that request it than others and those routes that dont have a lot of requests dont get
the difference is that in this thread they are getting upset about the type of kosher being offered abd the jews on those routes are just asking for kosher in general
there is a difference
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
i have no idea maybe certain routes have more jews that request it than others and those routes that dont have a lot of requests dont get
the difference is that in this thread they are getting upset about the type of kosher being offered abd the jews on those routes are just asking for kosher in general
there is a difference

You're being as selfish as the FT'ers.
"If it's not something I need then why should the airline spend the money on it, go bring it yourself."
The bottom line is C"Y is mainstream in 2012.  Just look at 99% of kosher dairy restaurants, this isn't a small minority like asking for lubavitcher shchita or something.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: skyguy918 on January 31, 2012, 02:42:48 PM
That's a very tricky issue in halacha. It's not so simple as, "I don't want to wash, so I'm not making a kvius."
I am happy that we have poskim on the forums, or at least people that claim to be poskim.

I'm not sure where you found a psak in that line, or where I claimed to be a posek. I certainly don't know the halachos well enough to say when one should or shouldn't wash on a mezonos roll, but I know enough to say that it's not as simple as deciding not to make a kvius.

And washing in a stinky bathroom isn't a tricky issue?
I personally have never had this issue but I don't fly nearly as often as you do. Obviously it is an issue, but in a scenario where one is required to wash, we don't say, forget washing, just make a mezonos. If you brought real bread with you, you'd either have to find a halachically acceptable way to make a hamotzi on it or not eat it. Granted the mezonos roll allows the possibility of not having to wash, but at the cost of the possibility of people not washing and bentching when they should have.

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?
This is obviously the key. If there is demand, they'll make the correct business decision and stick with a caterer that is makpid on cholov yisroel. Of course it's no easy task making them realize that there is a big demand for it.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 02:48:18 PM
The problem is everyone orders the KSML but how often do you write to them that it wasn't C"Y.
Personally, I never have, though I haven't encountered non-C"y food since the last time I flew a UA transcon in 2002.  But I bet most people never bother complaining to anyone but the FA at most.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: skyguy918 on January 31, 2012, 03:07:01 PM
Maybe a Chabad organization would be a good start for a campaign on this. Think about it, they're makpid on cholov yisroel, and they have people all over the globe (more so than any other Jewish group), which means as a group they fly more than many other groups of Jews. It's difficult to get a lot of people to write/call/email an airline about his, but if a large organization writes to them representing their population, that's a good start.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on January 31, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
The problem is everyone orders the KSML but how often do you write to them that it wasn't C"Y.
Personally, I never have, though I haven't encountered non-C"y food since the last time I flew a UA transcon in 2002.  But I bet most people never bother complaining to anyone but the FA at most.
When I flew Alitalia and they served Rabbinute meals, I contacted the PR department. Might be a start
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: moish on January 31, 2012, 04:13:43 PM
When I flew Alitalia and they served Rabbinute meals, I contacted the PR department. Might be a start
i shouldve done it too. anyone have the number to rj's pr dept?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 05:08:36 PM
Rama, Shach, and Taz all hold that a goy can be trusted bmokom mirsus for drabanans for the status of an item. R' Moshe just took a [basically] completely muskam din and applied it to CHS. The reason to be machmir by CHS is if the gzeira of CA was made not because of a sofek that it might not be cows milk, rather a geziera "bli ta'am" if you will. IE even if you have a way around it, it's still assur
You are being disingenuous (to put it very mildly). Mirsus might help for other Issurim, but there is a higher standard of Mirsus for Cholov Yisroel. I don’t know which Shach you have been learning, but I suggest you have a look at Shach YD 115:8, where he concludes that Mirsus is NOT sufficient, and a Yid must actually be watching. With regards to Cholov, Chazal instituted that the Mirsus must be based on the fact that a Yid is in the vicinity of the milking process, and could easily “pop up” and see exactly what is happening. A lesser form of Mirsus is insufficient. 
 
OTOH, when it comes to chalav stam, the OU certifies products all the time that are not chalav yisrael and therefore not going to be as concerned with that.
I'm not sure what the cholov stam issue has to do with airline meals. As LAXtraveler pointed out, the OU gives a hechsher to cholov stam and cholov stam products. The fact that the"large segment of the community" that is machmir al pi R' Moshe and others won't be able to eat the airline meals with their hechsher is no more a concern to them than the fact that those people won't be able to eat any of their cholov stam products when they're on the ground. You can argue all day whether they should or should not be giving a hechsher on such products, but I don't think that's the same as this discussion.

As I have already said, I am not objecting to OU’s policy on giving a Hechsher to Chalav Stam in general. On the ground, the consumer has a choice. However, in the air, things are different. And it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.
 
You might argue that it's terrible of the airlines to use a caterer that uses cholov stam because they're excluding those who are makpid on cholov yisroel, but they won't care unless there is a big enough demand. And by the way, they are the ones making the financial decision by virtue of which caterer they choose. If one caterer is cholov stam and cheaper, and the airline chooses them over the more expensive cholov yisroel caterer, that's the airline's choice. To say that the OU is putting financial considerations over halachic ones on the basis of airline meals seems a little bit of a stretch.
That was exactly my point. The caterer is in the business for the money, so it doesn’t come as any great surprise that they are doing the cheapest thing, and they will not change their policy unless they get hit in the pocket. [And I am not suggesting that we hit them in the pocket.]
However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?

if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
Why don’t you try that out on a route like JFK-SYD, with a family of seven.
Or, maybe read what OU-Kosher has to say about this issue:
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/ou_calls_on_domestic_airlines_to_provide_kosher_meals_snacks_for_sale_on_bo/
Quote: "In an interview, Rabbi Safran noted that kosher flyers must prepare or purchase food before leaving for the airport, pass it through security where it is x-rayed, and bring it on board with the rest of their carry-on belongings, while non-kosher passengers have no such requirements."

it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher
That is the point. Non-Jews don’t know the difference. Therefore “OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher” have a greater responsibility to ensure that their policies represent standard norms of Kosher. Otherwise, non-Jewish service providers (in this case, airlines,) will just regard the customer as a jerk who likes complaining for the sake of complaining (and maybe for some compensation vouchers).
And, Cholov Yisroel is a standard norm.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: good sam on January 31, 2012, 06:09:39 PM
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?
Tell UA you know a way to stop the Jews walking up and down the aisles during meal times.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
Therefore “OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher” have a greater responsibility to ensure that their policies represent standard norms of Kosher. Otherwise, non-Jewish service providers (in this case, airlines,) will just regard the customer as a jerk who likes complaining for the sake of complaining (and maybe for some compensation vouchers).
And, Cholov Yisroel is a standard norm.

I don't know if I agree with this completely. I think it has become more common for people to hold themselves to chalav yisrael, but I still think that less than 50% of Jews that order KSMLs in the USA do it. I could be wrong, but that is just my gut.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
But look at the percentage of kosher restaurants that are C"Y in 2012.  Do C"S places even exist in LA anymore?
I think it's fair to call it a standard norm today.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 06:39:51 PM
But look at the percentage of kosher restaurants that are C"Y in 2012.  Do C"S places even exist in LA anymore?
I think it's fair to call it a standard norm today.

But I don't think that is necessarily because the clientele require it, so much as the kashrus agencies require it. For example, I think Nagila's business might go down slightly if it wasn't chalav yisrael, but I don't think they'd be doing too shabby nonetheless.

CBTL (except for the one on Beverly Blvd.)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 06:47:56 PM
But I don't think that is necessarily because the clientele require it, so much as the kashrus agencies require it. For example, I think Nagila's business might go down slightly if it wasn't chalav yisrael, but I don't think they'd be doing too shabby nonetheless.

CBTL (except for the one on Beverly Blvd.)
Any restaurant could go under the OU in LA if they feel like it.  Subway was originally going to.
Ultimately they need to make a business decision, and that usually winds up being C"Y, but they have the free will to go under the OU if they want.

Anyway these days C"Y is not a very big expense for restaurants.  Just look how cheap C"Y products like cheese have become thanks to healthy competition. 
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 06:57:05 PM
Any restaurant could go under the OU in LA if they feel like it.

Others in the kashrus business can chime in, but AFAIK the OU generally doesn't give hashgachos to restaurants in LA. The exception being the winery. (I don't claim to know anything about the old Subway's hashgacha), and I think they might do Continental Bakery in the Valley as well (anyone from the Valley care to share).
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 06:58:07 PM
From what I heard from the top was that the OU was expecting to land the Subway account before they opened, which makes me doubt what you're saying is correct.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:04:54 PM
From what I heard from the top was that the OU was expecting to land the Subway account before they opened, which makes me doubt what you're saying is correct.

Could be, but seems strange that they would try so hard to land an account in a city where they don't seem to be trying with any other restaurant. Again, there are no restaurants in LA that are OU other than the winery. From a straight data perspective, it doesn't seem that the OU is trying so hard to get into this kosher scene, or if they are, they aren't doing a very good job.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 07:08:23 PM
Or the RCC+Kehilla have a pretty good mafia going on.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:10:03 PM
Or the RCC+Kehilla have a pretty good mafia going on.

For some reason I think the OU is stronger than either of these local organizations. They are little blips on a map compared to the OU's weight, IMHO.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: skyguy918 on January 31, 2012, 07:10:20 PM
As I have already said, I am not objecting to OU’s policy on giving a Hechsher to Chalav Stam in general. On the ground, the consumer has a choice. However, in the air, things are different. And it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.

That was exactly my point. The caterer is in the business for the money, so it doesn’t come as any great surprise that they are doing the cheapest thing, and they will not change their policy unless they get hit in the pocket. [And I am not suggesting that we hit them in the pocket.]

However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?

I still don't understand why the OU, who on the ground caters to the Jews who are not makpid on cholov yisroel, should all of a sudden in the air be worried about the Jews who are makpid. The reason they give a hechsher on items that are cholov stam on the ground, despite the fact that it will preclude a portion of the Jewish population from eating it, is not because that population can always make do with cholov yisroel items from another hechsher. It's because they decided on a psak that cholov stam here is acceptable. The same holds true in the air. The OU does not have a responsibility to make sure the cholov yisroel Jew is taken care of. That falls on the airline to choose a caterer who's hechsher doesn't allow cholov stam. The airline will only do that if they sense the demand from their customers.

It almost seems like you already have an opinion about the OU in general, and you're carrying that over into this discussion. I don't see why their giving a hechsher to cholov stam in the air being a money grab is any different than saying that their giving a hechsher to cholov stam on the ground is a money grab.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 07:22:59 PM
The reason they give a hechsher on items that are cholov stam on the ground, despite the fact that it will preclude a portion of the Jewish population from eating it, is not because that population can always make do with cholov yisroel items from another hechsher. It's because they decided on a psak that cholov stam here is acceptable.
According to your logic, there is no reason for OU to distinguish between Cholov Yisroel and Cholov Stam whatsoever. They should just label it all as Kosher dairy.
It seems that OU recognizes the both valid positions, and caters to both of them.

The OU does not have a responsibility to make sure the cholov yisroel Jew is taken care of.
Why not?

The airline will only do that if they sense the demand from their customers.
Not if they think that they are dealing with a bunch of misfits, who seem to be at odds with the largest Kosher organization in the world.

It almost seems like you already have an opinion about the OU in general, and you're carrying that over into this discussion.
I am sorry you get that impression, and I can confirm that aside for my gripes regarding this particular issue, I don’t have any other concerns with them.

I don't see why their giving a hechsher to cholov stam in the air being a money grab is any different than saying that their giving a hechsher to cholov stam on the ground is a money grab.
I never said that giving a hechsher to cholov stam is a money grab. I did say that the OU doesn’t seem interested in making the right stand if it will be a more expensive one.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:28:46 PM
I never said that giving a hechsher to cholov stam is a money grab. I did say that the OU doesn’t seem interested in making the right stand if it will be a more expensive one.

Anyway these days C"Y is not a very big expense for restaurants.  Just look how cheap C"Y products like cheese have become thanks to healthy competition. 

According to Dan it seems like its just as cheap - so perhaps the saving money argument doesn't really hold up, if looked at it that way.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 07:40:02 PM
According to Dan it seems like its just as cheap - so perhaps the saving money argument doesn't really hold up, if looked at it that way.
just as cheap≠not a very big expense
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
just as cheap≠not a very big expense

OK, you can get nitpicky, but you still know that what your saying doesn't completely jive with what dirah's argument is. If its a significant expense then dirah is right and you are wrong. If its not a significant expense then you are right and dirah is wrong.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 07:49:44 PM
Not at all, you are the one that changed what I said.
It's an expense, nobody will say there's no expense.  It's one small enough that 99% of restaurant owners have decided is small enough to make it worthwhile making their entire restaurant C"Y.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 07:50:23 PM
OK, you can get nitpicky, but you still know that what your saying doesn't completely jive with what dirah's argument is. If its a significant expense then dirah is right and you are wrong. If its not a significant expense then you are right and dirah is wrong.
And, either way, OU is wrong!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 07:50:45 PM
I mentioned that I emailed UA about this.
It was a while ago, and I just searched my inbox for their reply. Here is the relevant part of their response:
Thank you for your patience as we process the details that you have brought to our attention.
The definitions and descriptions of the two types of kosher meals are helpful.  To make changes to the stricter standard of Chalav Yisroel will be a time consuming and budget restrictive accommodation. Your comments have been escalated to our catering department management staff.  In the meantime, you may call reservations before a flight to confirm whether or not the two types of kosher meals are available.  As an advocate for the change, you may also wish to inform your acquaintances how it would benefit them to email their particular airline of choice to make their preferences be known.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:53:24 PM
Not at all, you are the one that changed what I said.
It's an expense, nobody will say there's no expense.  It's one small enough that 99% of restaurant owners have decided is small enough to make it worthwhile making their entire restaurant C"Y.

But not small enough that the OU couldn't handle it - but a bunch of small business owners around the country can?

Again, I think the fact that so many restaurants are chalav yisrael are because the agencies require it. I think the expense is one they have to live with if they want to be certified in LA by Kehilla or RCC - simple as that. Either that or don't run a kosher restaurant.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 07:54:55 PM
I mentioned that I emailed UA about this.
It was a while ago, and I just searched my inbox for their reply. Here is the relevant part of their response:
Thank you for your patience as we process the details that you have brought to our attention.
The definitions and descriptions of the two types of kosher meals are helpful. To make changes to the stricter standard of Chalav Yisroel will be a time consuming and budget restrictive accommodation. Your comments have been escalated to our catering department management staff.  In the meantime, you may call reservations before a flight to confirm whether or not the two types of kosher meals are available.  As an advocate for the change, you may also wish to inform your acquaintances how it would benefit them to email their particular airline of choice to make their preferences be known.


So then its a pretty big expense according to UA at least. Not
not a very big expense
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
So then its a pretty big expense according to UA at least. Not "not a very big expense"
Oh, please!
The airline is obviously thinking that to have Chalav Yisroel, they will need to change caterer. Or, get the current caterer to make radical changes!
What does the airline know!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
Oh, please!
The airline is obviously thinking that to have Chalav Yisroel, they will need to change caterer. Or, get the current caterer to make radical changes!
What does the airline know!

But they would it seems like, no?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 08:05:19 PM
It's entirely possible that for the airline to switch caterers would be a very costly expense. 
UA's kosher caterer makes pretty bad food across the board, so C"Y isn't the only thing they cut back on.
Yet, CO manages to pay for a caterer that serves C"Y, has mezonos rolls, and has hashgocha from just about everyone.
(http://www.dansdeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IMG_2284a-300x225.jpg)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 08:08:07 PM
So, CO's caterer is Borenstein and I've also seen Regal with CO from the US.
Who is UA's caterer?
If CO would serve non-C"Y on the TLV route there would probably be quite the protest...

(http://www.dansdeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IMG_2283a-300x225.jpg)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 08:10:00 PM
It's entirely possible that for the airline to switch caterers would be a very costly expense. 
UA's kosher caterer makes pretty bad food across the board, so C"Y isn't the only thing they cut back on.
Yet, CO manages to pay for a caterer that serves C"Y, has mezonos rolls, and has hashgocha from just about everyone.

Agreed, it would be expensive, and if CO's caterer has all you want, then argue for that to happen with the merger.

I don't think it is correct to say that OU is penny-pinching though by not requiring their meals to be chalav yisrael. My best guess would be that its not a requirement under OU hashgacha generally and that is their blanket policy. So whether the food is from Entenmann's or from UA's caterer it doesn't have to be chalav yisrael - whether some parts of the KSML community like that decision or not.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 08:13:53 PM
But they would it seems like, no?
That would depend on how MilMar is set up, I have no idea.
Anyways, you are right, for the airline to make the change, would be a costly headache.
Much less of a costly headache if Milmar made the change, at the direction of OU.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 08:14:35 PM
Who is UA's caterer?
KoshAir Cuisine is produced by MilMar.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on January 31, 2012, 08:17:41 PM
So it seems from the US there's KoshAir/MilMar/Wilton that are non-CY.  And there's Regal/Borenstein/Weiss that are C"Y.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 08:18:26 PM
That would depend on how MilMar is set up, I have no idea.
Anyways, you are right, for the airline to make the change, would be a costly headache.
Much less of a costly headache if Milmar made the change, at the direction of OU.

But then you seem to be saying that OU needs to change their kashrus policy, which I don't think would bode over well for many (probably the majority) of kosher consumers in the USA.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on January 31, 2012, 08:20:22 PM
But then you seem to be saying that OU needs to change their kashrus policy, which I don't think would bode over well for many (probably the majority) of kosher consumers in the USA.
Most Kosher consumers in the USA don't eat airline meals back home.
I imagine that a big supplier of airline meals like MilMar has an operation dedicated exclusively to airline meals, and that is the topic of discussion.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on January 31, 2012, 08:27:21 PM
Most Kosher consumers in the USA don't eat airline meals back home.
I imagine that a big supplier of airline meals like MilMar has an operation dedicated exclusively to airline meals, and that is the topic of discussion.

Agreed. But like I said above, my guess would be that OU has a general policy and that policy allows chalav stam. I would assume that it applies across the board. If MilMar or any specific establishment would choose chalav yisrael I'm sure OU would be thrilled - but that perhaps should be taken up with MilMar.

Perhaps your issue is best taken up with them, and not the kashrus agency overseeing them.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 04:09:16 AM
So it seems from the US there's KoshAir/MilMar/Wilton that are non-CY.  And there's Regal/Borenstein/Weiss that are C"Y.
I don't have much experience with Kosher meals in CO , but, are you sure that Borenstein's is Cholov Yisroel?
According to some webpages out there, Regal is Cholov Yisroel, but the standard Borenstein Kosher meal is not.
For example, see here:
http://www.star-k.com/kashrus/kk-pie-sky.htm
And what does CO serve in economy, Regal or Borenstein's?
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on February 01, 2012, 09:13:16 AM
and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house.
without giving my opinion on the halachic issue, this "fact" is patently false, as R' Moshe did allow his family to eat Ch'S and keep it in the home, In addition it should be noted that R' Rueven Feinstein presently isn't makpid
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: bubkiz on February 01, 2012, 09:22:44 AM
In addition it should be noted that R' Rueven Feinstein presently isn't makpid
You saw him eating Haagen Daaz?  :) This "fact" may be on par with the quoted one unless you have personal knowledge otherwise.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on February 01, 2012, 11:13:32 AM
He has publically and frequently said so himself,                                                                                  yet strangely i have never seen him diging into a tub of ice cream if thats what you would like to know, i cannot prove conclusively if this is true. but you can ask him or any talmid of staten island for that matter and they will tell you that it is true. i have several friends who have learnt there and they have told me this. i chose to beleive them, feel free not to
Title: Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 11:32:25 AM
without giving my opinion on the halachic issue, this "fact" is patently false, as R' Moshe did allow his family to eat Ch'S and keep it in the home, In addition it should be noted that R' Rueven Feinstein presently isn't makpid
Heard first hand a story that when Reb Moshe unknowingly was served Ch'S by his son-in-law, and when he was told he went to the bathroom and threw it up.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 12:42:35 PM
Heard first hand a story that when Reb Moshe unknowingly was served Ch'S by his son-in-law, and when he was told he went to the bathroom and threw it up.
That story was supposedly made up.

R' Reuven's grandson told me that he asked R' Reuven whether he should be makpid on CS, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you are for sure not"
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
That story was supposedly made up.
  ::) Heard it from 2 extremely reliable sources one of them a Tendler
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 01:53:11 PM
  ::) Heard it from 2 extremely reliable sources one of them a Tendler
Was told by a great grandson that it was totally not true, but I guess Lo Raeinu Ayno Rayeh. Definitely doesn't sound like something R' Moshe would do. It sounds as made up as that story with the kid getting hit by the car on R' Moshe's block.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Side incomer on February 01, 2012, 02:01:27 PM
Was told by a great grandson that it was totally not true, but I guess Lo Raeinu Ayno Rayeh. Definitely doesn't sound like something R' Moshe would do. It sounds as made up as that story with the kid getting hit by the car on R' Moshe's block.
If R' Moshe wrote that a ball nefesh should be machmir, I believe he meant himself as well.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: bubkiz on February 01, 2012, 02:30:48 PM
Was told by a great grandson that it was totally not true, but I guess Lo Raeinu Ayno Rayeh. Definitely doesn't sound like something R' Moshe would do. It sounds as made up as that story with the kid getting hit by the car on R' Moshe's block.
Never heard that one. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 01, 2012, 02:55:44 PM
Definitely doesn't sound like something R' Moshe would do.
Based on?
I just did it myself when I realized I was eating something that was always parve and became OU-D :P
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: bubkiz on February 01, 2012, 02:57:05 PM
Based on?
I just did it myself when I realized I was eating something that was always parve and became OU-D :P
Was it actual dairy or is Chabad makpid on dairy equipment as well?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 01, 2012, 03:04:14 PM
Was it actual dairy or is Chabad makpid on dairy equipment as well?
Dunno, I just look at the packaging and it said OU-D.
But we are makpid on dairy equip as well.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
OT but for the record Oreo cookies are DE and do not contain dairy
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 01, 2012, 03:08:44 PM
Was it actual dairy or is Chabad makpid on dairy equipment as well?

The whole idea of equipment being less stringent than the item itself is based on N"T bar N"T (as things get passed from item to dish and onto the next item the "flavor weakens") This only applies to an Issura (N'T bar N"T l'heteira does not exist.)

Assuming that cholov yisroel is considered a halachik issue (and not simply a chumra) there is no heter for DE. So yes, Chabad is makpid on DE.

(I apologize for not having any quotes, don't lug my shulchan aruch around with me  :) maybe someone can help out with mekoros)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 03:13:59 PM
The whole idea of equipment being less stringent than the item itself is based on N"T bar N"T (as things get passed from item to dish and onto the next item the "flavor weakens") This only applies to an Issura (N'T bar N"T l'heteira does not exist.)
This is under the assumption that they don't clean their equipments which I find incredibly hard to believe, as they can get their kahoony's sued off if someone got an allergic reaction from dairy being found in the cookie. That being aside the concept of buttle bishishim would definitely apply in this situation and that my friend is likula.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: whYME on February 01, 2012, 03:18:14 PM
This is under the assumption that they don't clean their equipments which I find incredibly hard to believe
yeah but considering the cleaning they do (is it called CEP? it's been quite a while...) kashering is very b'dieved...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 03:22:24 PM
yeah but considering the cleaning they do (is it called CEP? it's been quite a while...) kashering is very b'dieved...
This is not binogeia kashering.

YankeeDoole said:
Quote
The whole idea of equipment being less stringent than the item itself is based on N"T bar N"T (as things get passed from item to dish and onto the next item the "flavor weakens") This only applies to an Issura (N'T bar N"T l'heteira does not exist.)
And I'm saying that there is nothing being "passed" from dish to dish.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on February 01, 2012, 03:25:16 PM
interestingly i also heard the story of R Moshe vomiting it up from the very same person who told me that he had chalav stam milk in his fridge and that is why i only took issue with dirah's statement that it was never allowed in his house.                                               while i do believe that R Moshe would be extra makpid on things for himself while allowing it completly for others as can be often evidenced in his teshuvos (for instance his says that sugar does not need kli shlishi even though you may see me doing it) yet i can see why someone would say that it seems out of charactor as R Moshe was super calm and deliberate one of his outstanding features was the clarity and lack of excitement with which he paskened crazy difficult on the spot shailos, so It's hard to imagine him compulsivly shoving his finger down his throat, (although if he felt it was proper of course he would do so). in general the litvish gedolim of last generation avoided grandiose gestures and kept very controlled
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: whYME on February 01, 2012, 03:26:15 PM
This is not binogeia kashering.

And I'm saying that there is nothing being "passed" from dish to dish.
Either I'm missing something or those two statements are contradictory. (ok, so maybe "kashering" was technically the wrong term, but my point still stands)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 03:30:48 PM
Either I'm missing something or those two statements are contradictory. (ok, so maybe "kashering" was technically the wrong term, but my point still stands)
Most people that are makpid on Ch'S wouldn't say that you would need to kasher a person that isn't makpids' utensils. They just refrain from eating actual Ch'S.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 03:40:08 PM
The whole idea of equipment being less stringent than the item itself is based on N"T bar N"T (as things get passed from item to dish and onto the next item the "flavor weakens") This only applies to an Issura (N'T bar N"T l'heteira does not exist.)
I believe you got that backwards. NT bar NT is only beheteira. Once it's Issur it is ischazek issura and never goes away even with 100 NTs. One of the example cases is cooking fish in a milchig pot, then eating the fish with meat
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 03:41:24 PM
Based on?
I just did it myself when I realized I was eating something that was always parve and became OU-D :P
For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 03:42:21 PM
That being aside the concept of buttle bishishim would definitely apply in this situation and that my friend is likula.
We pasken there is never 60 against a kli from what is inside
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 01, 2012, 03:45:10 PM
For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?
Hergesh
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 03:50:54 PM
Hergesh
???
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 01, 2012, 03:56:10 PM
I believe you got that backwards. NT bar NT is only beheteira. Once it's Issur it is ischazek issura and never goes away even with 100 NTs. One of the example cases is cooking fish in a milchig pot, then eating the fish with meat

I am 99% sure, that when it comes to an issura then bec of N"T bar N"T it is fine to eat it. As opposed to a dvar heter (i.e. milk from a cow) N"T bar N"T will not remove the item. As I said I do not have my shuchan Aruch with me, but if someone else can confirm/post mekoros it would be appreciated.

This is under the assumption that they don't clean their equipments which I find incredibly hard to believe, as they can get their kahoony's sued off if someone got an allergic reaction from dairy being found in the cookie.

Au contraire! This is exactly the concept of N"T bar N"T! Regardless of how many times it has been washed out (if the pot is DE, bec ch"s was cooked in it) it will retain its status as DE (since there is no N"T bar N"T l'hetaira!)

Most people that are makpid on Ch'S wouldn't say that you would need to kasher a person that isn't makpids' utensils. They just refrain from eating actual Ch'S.

I can't speak for most ppl (although I can prob speak better than you can on this topic, seeing as it isn't something you're personally careful about) but I would not, again for the very same reason (DE). I would possibly eat something cold on the dishes, but I would not eat mac n' cheese on DE dishes (even it was made this time with ch"y).
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 01, 2012, 03:57:37 PM
Hergesh
???

What would you do if you ate pork (kviyachal)?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: shmuelb on February 01, 2012, 04:32:39 PM
It is geshmak to see such Yiddishkeit here, such care and concern! (not being sarcastic)

Dan- for the bathroom, if it is stinky, anyways you should complain and show off your cards. Find another bathroom ... What I usually do is flush, close toilet lid, wash with a real cup (bring or get from lounge?) with the door open and dry hands outside. Best option is wash in (plane's) kitchen sink.

Keep shteiging and trying to do everything l'chatchila!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 01, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
It is geshmak to see such Yiddishkeit here, such care and concern! (not being sarcastic)

Dan- for the bathroom, if it is stinky, anyways you should complain and show off your cards. Find another bathroom ... What I usually do is flush, close toilet lid, wash with a real cup (bring or get from lounge?) with the door open and dry hands outside. Best option is wash in (plane's) kitchen sink.

Keep shteiging and trying to do everything l'chatchila!

I ususally borrow the pilots hat for davening, announce zman krias shema on the loudspeaker, and cover the tv's with a blanket. (Since they stopped giving out blankets on every flight I bring extra just in case. I also kasher the plane's kitchen sink just for the heck of it.

Dan - do you wanna know how I eat my peanuts?

 :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
I would possibly eat something cold on the dishes, but I would not eat mac n' cheese on DE dishes (even it was made this time with ch"y).
Listen the bottom line is that most people don't hold that Ch'S makes the utensils treif. R' Moshe, although recommending one be machmir, clearly writes that one who relies on it is not a m'zalzel b'issurim.
You can speak for yourself but I know countless of people that are makpid on only eating Ch"Y, and not be makpid on the utensils. It could be because they assume that the keilim are aino ben yomo, or because they only accepted CH"Y as a chumra. You could disagree all you want but it seems to be a very common practice to not be makpid on keilim
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 04:40:28 PM
I am 99% sure, that when it comes to an issura then bec of N"T bar N"T it is fine to eat it. As opposed to a dvar heter (i.e. milk from a cow) N"T bar N"T will not remove the item. As I said I do not have my shuchan Aruch with me, but if someone else can confirm/post mekoros it would be appreciated.
YD 95-3
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 01, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
What would you do if you ate pork (kviyachal)?
I believe throwing up actually creates more problems lehalacha. Have to double check, but that's what ligt mir in kop
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 05:07:51 PM
without giving my opinion on the halachic issue, this "fact" is patently false, as R' Moshe did allow his family to eat Ch'S and keep it in the home, In addition it should be noted that R' Rueven Feinstein presently isn't makpid
My fact is based on Mishne Halachos (4:103). Direct quote (If your browser displays Hebrew):
הגאון ר' משה שליט"א ... אמר לי מפורש שבביתו ח"ו אין נכנס חלב עכו"ם לא מיניה ולא מקצתו

 
I believe you got that backwards. NT bar NT is only beheteira. Once it's Issur it is ischazek issura and never goes away even with 100 NTs. One of the example cases is cooking fish in a milchig pot, then eating the fish with meat
+1.
YankyDoodle, you got it wrong.
It is N”T Bar N”T Lheteira. That is why DE makes a difference for those who drink Chalav Stam, being that they hold it is Heteira. It makes no difference for those who don’t drink Chalav Stam, because for them it is an Issur.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 05:20:46 PM
R' Reuven's grandson told me that he asked R' Reuven whether he should be makpid on CS, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you are for sure not"
Huh?

Most people that are makpid on Ch'S wouldn't say that you would need to kasher a person that isn't makpids' utensils. They just refrain from eating actual Ch'S.
Listen the bottom line is that most people don't hold that Ch'S makes the utensils treif. m'zalzel b'issurim.
You can speak for yourself but I know countless of people that are makpid on only eating Ch"Y, and not be makpid on the utensils. It could be because they assume that the keilim are aino ben yomo, or because they only accepted CH"Y as a chumra. You could disagree all you want but it seems to be a very common practice to not be makpid on keilim
It is self-contradictory to hold that Cholov Stam is Ossur, yet use its dairy equipment (used for hot). “Seeing countless people doing it” is not a Halachic argument. Otherwise, it would be a Hiddur Mitzvah to speak during Chazaras HaShatz.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 05:34:36 PM
It is self-contradictory to hold that Cholov Stam is Ossur, yet use its dairy equipment (used for hot). “Seeing countless people doing it” is not a Halachic argument.
My point is that most hold (Reb Moshe including) that it's not assur yet are makpid not to eat it. Rendering the keilim kosher.
Otherwise, it would be a Hiddur Mitzvah to speak during Chazaras HaShatz.
Cute
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: whYME on February 01, 2012, 05:37:11 PM
“Seeing countless people doing it” is not a Halachic argument. Otherwise, it would be a Hiddur Mitzvah to speak during Chazaras HaShatz.
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/MamaKillinGuitar/smiley.jpg)(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/MamaKillinGuitar/smiley.jpg)(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/MamaKillinGuitar/smiley.jpg)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 05:40:04 PM
That being aside the concept of buttle bishishim would definitely apply in this situation and that my friend is likula.
Equipment which was used for Issur becomes forbidden to use for Hetter until it is Kashered. Bittul and Eynoi Ben Yomo don’t help to allow one to use such equipment L’Chatchila without Kashering it. And, most reputable agencies, OU included, do not give Hashgocho on any food where the equipment requires Kashering. [Even though when the consumer buys the food it is already a Bdieved, since the food was already prepared, the actual act of giving a Hechsher is regarded as a L’Chatchila. Hence, no Hechsher can be given.]

For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?
See Remo (YD 81:7) that one must be careful with Kashrus even with regards to someone who is not a Bar Chiyuv (such as a baby), because the food becomes part of him!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 05:45:11 PM
Equipment which was used for Issur becomes forbidden to use for Hetter until it is Kashered. Bittul and Eynoi Ben Yomo don’t help to allow one to use such equipment L’Chatchila without Kashering it.
  ::) Your clearly of the opinion that Ch"S is an issur and not a chumra. That difference between us seems to be flying right over your head.
See here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13629.msg179570#msg179570)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 05:48:44 PM
  ::) Your clearly of the opinion that Ch"S is an issur and not a chumra. That difference between us seems to be flying right over your head.
See here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13629.msg179570#msg179570)
I clearly am not getting it. If it is Muttar, what do you need Bittul and Eynoi Ben Yomo for? And if it is Ossur, these things will not help with regards to Kailim!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 01, 2012, 05:56:26 PM
I clearly am not getting it. If it is Muttar, what do you need Bittul and Eynoi Ben Yomo for? And if it is Ossur, these things will not help with regards to Kailim!
If it is muttar but people chose to be makpid then you could rely on bittul on the chashash that some milk was left over on the equipment.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 01, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
If it is muttar but people chose to be makpid then you could rely on bittul on the chashash that some milk was left over on the equipment.
As in, HaPeh SheOssar hu HaPeh Shehittir?
I am not even going to try to understand what you just wrote.
I am not even sure I know how to repond:
(http://pctechnotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/facebook-emoticons.gif)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UpXELB94iLk/SdPh6JBJ39I/AAAAAAAAASQ/oBBH1k4xd_A/s400/skyrock-emoticons.png)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 01, 2012, 07:23:24 PM
+1.
YankyDoodle, you got it wrong.
It is N”T Bar N”T Lheteira. That is why DE makes a difference for those who drink Chalav Stam, being that they hold it is Heteira. It makes no difference for those who don’t drink Chalav Stam, because for them it is an Issur.
YD 95-3

Sorry guys. You are absolutely right! I guess that's why the first rule of Smicha is to realize that we are not poskim, just that we have the tools to look in the right places. As Roger Clemens once said, I 'misremembered'
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YOSEF on February 01, 2012, 11:02:29 PM
Heard first hand a story that when Reb Moshe unknowingly was served Ch'S by his son-in-law, and when he was told he went to the bathroom and threw it up.
The way I heard it was that someone asked Reb Moshe's SIL or grandson, "I heard Reb Moshe ate Chalav Stam and threw up", and the SIL answered, "both stories are true!!!"
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: shmuelb on February 02, 2012, 03:32:39 AM
As in, HaPeh SheOssar hu HaPeh Shehittir?
I am not even going to try to understand what you just wrote.
I am not even sure I know how to repond:

I understand it that you can be makpid - machmir - not to eat Ch'S mamash but not makpid for keilim. It is a minhag, not psak.

Rav Moshe said Baal Nefesh Yachmir, it is yadua, as has been quoted here, that bnei beiso are not makpid, they hold they are not on the level of "Baal Nefesh". Nowadays people adopt all sorts of chumras without having the basics in hashkafa and Yidishkeit. It is the sign of our Dor, a focus on the external and pettiness. Chas veShalom to minimize the Chashivus of chumros, but it is not the ikar.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: shmuelb on February 02, 2012, 03:34:47 AM
I ususally borrow the pilots hat for davening, announce zman krias shema on the loudspeaker, and cover the tv's with a blanket. (Since they stopped giving out blankets on every flight I bring extra just in case. I also kasher the plane's kitchen sink just for the heck of it.

Dan - do you wanna know how I eat my peanuts?

 :o :o :o :o :o

Thanks Yanky,

To clarify, I try to do everything as inconspicuous and subtle as possible, without inconveniencing anyone.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 02, 2012, 06:41:16 AM
Rav Moshe said Baal Nefesh Yachmir, it is yadua, as has been quoted here, that bnei beiso are not makpid, they hold they are not on the level of "Baal Nefesh". Nowadays people adopt all sorts of chumras without having the basics in hashkafa and Yidishkeit. It is the sign of our Dor, a focus on the external and pettiness. Chas veShalom to minimize the Chashivus of chumros, but it is not the ikar.
A rav just told me that when someone comes to him and asks him whether he should be makpid on certain chumras that aren't mekubal across the board he tells them not to be machmir. If you have to ask, then you're not holding at a point where you should be machmir
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 02, 2012, 06:53:16 AM
A rav just told me that when someone comes to him and asks him whether he should be makpid on certain chumras that aren't mekubal across the board he tells them not to be machmir. If you have to ask, then you're not holding at a point where you should be machmir

I've heard just the opposite reasoning as well...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 02, 2012, 07:05:39 AM
I've heard just the opposite reasoning as well...
I hear, but I think he was referring to the ppl that were being hesitant
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 02, 2012, 08:31:20 AM
I hear, but I think he was referring to the ppl that were being hesitant

That's what I mean.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: AsherO on February 02, 2012, 10:37:56 AM
I believe throwing up actually creates more problems lehalacha. Have to double check, but that's what ligt mir in kop

Wouldn't that be taam nifgam?

See Remo (YD 81:7) that one must be careful with Kashrus even with regards to someone who is not a Bar Chiyuv (such as a baby), because the food becomes part of him!

Thanks! A Torah source for "you are what you eat" :)

The way I heard it was that someone asked Reb Moshe's SIL or grandson, "I heard Reb Moshe ate Chalav Stam and threw up", and the SIL answered, "both stories are true!!!"

You notice he answered diplomatically but neither confirmed nor denied the story...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 02, 2012, 12:37:17 PM
I believe throwing up actually creates more problems lehalacha. Have to double check, but that's what ligt mir in kop
I didn't make a halachik decision, it was a reaction that was made on a chasiddishe hergesh as I said.  All those years of hearing about how cholov stam will be m'tamtem lev' v'moach and all that good stuff.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 02, 2012, 02:04:22 PM
I didn't make a halachik decision, it was a reaction that was made on a chasiddishe hergesh as I said.  All those years of hearing about how cholov stam will be m'tamtem lev' v'moach and all that good stuff.
Turns out I'm wrong about that part
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: U-no-me! on February 02, 2012, 05:54:36 PM
My fact is based on Mishne Halachos (4:103). Direct quote (If your browser displays Hebrew):
הגאון ר' משה שליט"א ... אמר לי מפורש שבביתו ח"ו אין נכנס חלב עכו"ם לא מיניה ולא מקצתו

Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: jj1000 on February 03, 2012, 03:39:29 AM
Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?
kinda coming in middle of a conversation but I believe judaism is NOT an all our nothing religion. As a frum jew I try to do my best and if I struggle with something our even if I blatantly and intentionally go against halacha that does not negate the good that I do. After 120 years I am not expecting to be told you had internet therefore every halacha and chumra I did was for naught. On the contrary if someone does one good deed even if he is not holding on that level none the less he will receive his due reward, and it is just the right thing to do.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: aussiebochur on February 03, 2012, 05:36:18 AM
For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?
Hergesh
See Remo (YD 81:7) that one must be careful with Kashrus even with regards to someone who is not a Bar Chiyuv (such as a baby), because the food becomes part of him!
I didn't make a halachik decision, it was a reaction that was made on a chasiddishe hergesh as I said.  All those years of hearing about how cholov stam will be m'tamtem lev' v'moach and all that good stuff.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 03, 2012, 06:50:18 AM
Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?

I think I finally realized what's going on here! Nobody likes to be told that what they're doing isn't good enough... Especially when one's right to a good Kit Kat bar or Reeses Pieces is at stake! That's why when someone brings a direct quote from the only (yes major but only) rabbi to allow the use of chalav stam saying that he would G-d forbid never use ch"st it rubs some of you the wrong way. Yes he did allow it (under certain circumstances, which is a diff story as was argued earlier in the thread) but that does not make s/o who keeps ch"y a machmir it makes ch"st a kula! No one cares what you wonder about R Moshe's potential internet usage, the point is he said this clearly is that not enough for you to accept as well (or at least accept that others accept it!?)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: bubkiz on February 03, 2012, 08:43:53 AM
Back to OT: I think the most effective way to handle this manner is to petition the OU to make it their policy that airline food caterers serve Chalov Yisroel only. Probably a lot easier to reason with then the airline.

Consumer Hotline:
212-613-8241
kosherq@ou.org
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 03, 2012, 08:53:38 AM
Probably a lot easier to reason with then the airline.
Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 03, 2012, 09:00:51 AM
Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?
By making a policy like that they're not denouncing Ch"S. They would just be accommodating a large section of people that they're "trying" to cater to. No one will deny that their trying to cater to the frum community as a whole.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: bubkiz on February 03, 2012, 09:03:01 AM
Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?
Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Mocha on February 03, 2012, 09:23:18 AM
Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...
You basically said +1 in other words ;)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 03, 2012, 09:41:22 AM
By making a policy like that they're not denouncing Ch"S. They would just be accommodating a large section of people that they're "trying" to cater to. No one will deny that their trying to cater to the frum community as a whole.
Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...
I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: LAXtraveler on February 03, 2012, 12:00:49 PM
I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.

Me too. I said that earlier in this thread. It seems like the issue should be taken up with the caterer (MilMar?) not OU, in this situation.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: whYME on February 03, 2012, 02:05:00 PM
I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.
Not that I want to go around in circles, but to quote dirah from earlier in the thread:
However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 04, 2012, 11:35:31 AM
Not that I want to go around in circles, but to quote dirah from earlier in the thread:
IMHO, and possibly the opinion of the OU as well, Mezonos is much more clear cut than ChS. It is very hard to be matir mezonos on any roll included in a "meal", while with ChS, yesh al mi lismoch
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: elikay on February 04, 2012, 07:25:22 PM
It is very hard to be matir mezonos on any roll included in a "meal"
+1
VERY important point, which many people seem to miss. When being kovea seuda you always wash and Bentch.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YG on February 05, 2012, 12:18:21 AM
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan.

For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?

See Y"D 81,7

RaM"A
(re: nursing a baby)
"for milk from an idolater is metamtem haleiv (of the baby consuming the milk) and will give the child a bad nature, therefore a nursing (mother) should not eat anything prohibited, nor should the child, for all this will harm him in his older age."

Ta"Z - s"k 12
"all this (particularity about not having a child nursed by a lady that has eaten issue) applies even in circumstances where the lady was permitted to eat (normally) prohibited food for reasons of pikuach nefesh (in which case she was halachically obligated to eat it ) nevertheless she should not nurse the child"

Sha"Ch- s"k 25
"if she is sick in a fashion that we are obligated to feed her (normally) prohibited foods, the father of the child should not give the child to be nursed by her"

Sha"Ch - s"k 26
"even though when a child eats an issur d'Rabbonnon the father is not obligated to separate him (from the transgression).....this is regarding the Halacha (of chinuch), however he should separate him for it will harm him in his older age for it is metamtem the heart and will cause him (to have) a negative disposition"
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 05, 2012, 06:49:01 AM
See Y"D 81,7

RaM"A
(re: nursing a baby)
"for milk from an idolater is metamtem haleiv (of the baby consuming the milk) and will give the child a bad nature, therefore a nursing (mother) should not eat anything prohibited, nor should the child, for all this will harm him in his older age."

Ta"Z - s"k 12
"all this (particularity about not having a child nursed by a lady that has eaten issue) applies even in circumstances where the lady was permitted to eat (normally) prohibited food for reasons of pikuach nefesh (in which case she was halachically obligated to eat it ) nevertheless she should not nurse the child"

Sha"Ch- s"k 25
"if she is sick in a fashion that we are obligated to feed her (normally) prohibited foods, the father of the child should not give the child to be nursed by her"

Sha"Ch - s"k 26
"even though when a child eats an issur d'Rabbonnon the father is not obligated to separate him (from the transgression).....this is regarding the Halacha (of chinuch), however he should separate him for it will harm him in his older age for it is metamtem the heart and will cause him (to have) a negative disposition"
But why would throwing up help. According to the Shmiras Haguf after a short period of time has elapsed, throwing up will not prevent timtum halev.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YG on February 05, 2012, 08:16:23 AM
But why would throwing up help. According to the Shmiras Haguf after a short period of time has elapsed, throwing up will not prevent timtum halev.

How long is "a short period of time"?
If you could provide a reference it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 05, 2012, 09:02:55 AM
How long is "a short period of time"?
If you could provide a reference it would be appreciated.
He didn't specify, he just said the only way it would accomplish anything was if it was done immediately without any time passing
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YG on February 05, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
Reference.....?
(as in where, not just which sefer)

Are you referring to the (two volume) Sefer "Shmiras haguf v'hanefesh"?

Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on February 05, 2012, 12:54:49 PM
Reference.....?
(as in where, not just which sefer)

Are you referring to the (two volume) Sefer "Shmiras haguf v'hanefesh"?


Yes. Don't know if it's in the sefer, I asked him directly (thought he was a good source for timtum info)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: YG on February 05, 2012, 02:11:43 PM
Gotcha.
I ask because his Sefer is a likkut - a gathering of information from various seforim, and much of it is sourced from late acharonim, and not all the sources he quotes are necessarily universally 'ongennumen'.

I am a huge fan of the Sefer, after seeing it lying around and browsing through it on several occasions I made a special request for my local seforim dealer to get it in.
It's well referenced - crucial for a good likkut (both in terms of deeming it reliable, and of allowing follow up analysis of sources), and he has relatively comprehensive footnotes on the page.  IMHO these two characteristics often make the difference between a nice book, and an effective and (at least) somewhat complete piece of work.

However, a significant amount of what he writes in the 'pnim' comes from late acharonim that are not necessarily universally accepted as 'primary poskim' which is why I asked for a reference, as Id be interested to see the details behind the statement.

AFAIU, timtum haleiv is generally associated with the fact that the issur that is ingested is subsequently digested and absorbed into the bloodstream, and molecules obtained from the food are then incorporated into the body of the individual - "naaseh dam u'bossor mi'bsoro", resulting in a body which is partly built out of issur, and therefore has a reduced sensitivity to Kedusha. It would presumably follow, that regarding removal of issur from an individual's digestive system,, 'the sooner the better', and the longer it stays, the more of it will be absorbed into the bloodstream and then incorporated into the body, and the greater the degree of timtum haleiv likely to result.  It seems doubtful to me that it's a matter of seconds before complete timtum haleiv has been achieved, and I would relate to a proposal that it's a significant period of time before food has completely moved on from the stomach to the duodenum (first part of the small intestine) and is unable to be removed from the system by regurgitation, which would prevent it from being absorbed.

Regarding the time after eating that one can still make a brocho achrono, AFAIK the practical gauge is 'as long as one still feels some of the satisfaction resulting from the consumption of the food' which is a halachic indication that some of it still remains in the stomach.  I write this offhand, I'm not currently next to a sefer that I can confirm and quote, but if this is indeed the case, it would indicate that food can remain in the stomach for significant periods of time after consumption - depending on the variety and quantity of food consumed, and if the cheshbon about absorption and incorporation of issur into the body causing timtum haleiv is accurate, it may indicate a to'eles in removing issur from the system as long as it is still possible.

There are gaps as not all of what i wrote is referenced to a Torah source at the moment, but it's what is on my mind offhand.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on February 28, 2012, 07:10:28 PM
Sorry to get in late in the game, but I just read through the first ten pages and found it more enjoyable than the pilot posting that has been referenced elsewhere as the most addictive/enjoyable post ever.
My thoughts:
a) I don't think the target is OU here - more effective with airline or caterer
b) which is actually my main point, people really just have to learn more halacha. If you'd learn through the halachos of handwashing for bread and what constitutes bread, you'd come to the inevitable conclusion that the rolls are hamotzi mema nafshach (whether called such or not) and the simple solution to difficulty washing on plane is not to wash - this is something clearly discussed in hilchos netilas yodayim - and one would just wrap one's hands in a davar hamafsik and make hamotzi and bentch which are not dependent on whether one washed but on whether it is bread.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on February 28, 2012, 07:16:09 PM
My post was getting too long and this is an aside: The OU's official policy has always been to be someich on Rav Moshe for the Chalav Companies shaila; as far as the mezonos roll which is a more recent phenomenon, their psak obviously follows their current posek in residence Rav Belsky shlita (may he live and be well) who writes very strongly in Shut Shulchan Halevi against the mistaken concept of the mezonos roll and very thoroughly debunks it in a longer piece at the end of the sefer.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: smart brit on February 28, 2012, 09:26:38 PM
wow just found out that on ddf we have some serious talmedi chahomim on here i'm running to learn now lol but reading this thread is serious entertainment so thanks everyone
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 29, 2012, 03:04:15 AM
My problem is that a vast majority of orthodox-non-usa-jews stick to cholov yisroel.

The flights in questions are only international ones, where the percentage of non-usa jews is probably quite elevated.

Why deprive them of a meal? It gets even worse with countries that don't allow you to import fresh food...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 29, 2012, 06:13:12 AM
a) I don't think the target is OU here - more effective with airline or caterer
In practice, the airlines won't change because they will regard it as too much of a headache. A change would involve reworking catering contracts, which would be a real pain in the neck, especially as many airlines do not order the kosher meals directly, but rather rely on their contracted general caterer to procure the Kosher meals. Making the change would also not really improve the airline's bottom line. So, from the airline's point of view - it ain't happening.

The caterer won't change because they know that the airline is not going to push the issue for the above reasons, and changing will not improve their bottom line either.

O-U should take a stand, because they represent the mainstream interests of Kosher consumers, of which Cholov-Yisroel is a part. O-U certifies many products as Cholov Yisroel, so they obviously accept this to be a valid mainstream standard.
If so, why wouldn't they require airline meals to be Cholov Yisroel? They know that it will not change any other way! The only reason I can imagine is because it would not improve their bottom line.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on February 29, 2012, 06:40:44 AM
Reb Moishe’s Hetter relies on governmental supervision and enforcement.
Someone just forwarded me some correspondence between Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum (Nirbater Rav) and the FDA, NY State Department of Agriculture (Kosher Law Enforcement), and the WI State Department of Agriculture. It raises some interesting questions about the extent of current governmental supervision and enforcement.

FDA: “Milk in the US is considered of bovine source unless otherwise stated on the label. We don’t test for other species milk contamination, but States assure that the milk does not contain any unapproved additives. I believe that DNA testing could certify species but that is not something we have a concern about. Penalties are on an individual basis.”

NY State Department of Agriculture: “We have no known test for other species milk and as long as the milk in a producers tank meets the Standard of Identity for milk and obviously we did not see anyone physically putting milk from another species in the tank, we have no additional requirements … We do not monitor milk for other species.”
Unless we see someone adding other milk from a different species to the milk, we would never be able to detect it."

WI State Department of Agriculture: “No we do not test for mixing of the milk with other species.”
“After speaking to our Lab Evaluation Office … it appears as though there is no definite test to distinguish species.”
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 29, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
I just love the irony that the same people that wouldn't trust the government (at least as it is in 2012 in the USA, maybe things were different back in the day) with a dime of their money, but yet will rely on them with their yiddishkeit to make sure there aren't any unscrupulous farmers in the entire country.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 29, 2012, 12:35:27 PM
I just love the irony that the same people that wouldn't trust the government (at least as it is in 2012 in the USA, maybe things were different back in the day) with a dime of their money, but yet will rely on them with their yiddishkeit to make sure there aren't any unscrupulous farmers in the entire country.
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 29, 2012, 12:56:13 PM
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?
???
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: MarkS on February 29, 2012, 01:01:24 PM
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?

[well known story] Insert story with Rav Yisroel Salanter here[/end]
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 29, 2012, 01:03:53 PM
[well known story] Insert story with Rav Yisroel Salanter here[/end]
I don't know it.
Just saying many things in beirut seifkos are sufficient in halacha even though a rational person would never rely on them for something personal.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: MarkS on February 29, 2012, 01:06:41 PM
I don't know it.
Just saying many things in beirut seifkos are sufficient in halacha even though a rational person would never rely on them for something personal.
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 29, 2012, 01:09:50 PM
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"
thx
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on February 29, 2012, 01:12:13 PM
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"
Yup, al derech that.  I'm not speaking halachically, but surely you must admit the irony is there...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on March 01, 2012, 02:43:36 AM
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision. It's very easy to pick apart the well publicized (and ridiculed) parts of the tshuvah, but R' Moshe is actually being more machmir than the previous gedolim who were matir, namely the Pri Chodosh (and others) who lived several hundred years prior. There is a basic machlokes on the nature of the issur of chalav akum. Suffice it to say, without giving a shiur on the topic, there are other things going into the heter, including the fact that it's basically not possible/practical for the company to add other milk (we're not talking about private people in their backyard). Until one goes through the sugya and the teshuva's of R' Moshe, it's worse than a nooB arguing with Dan about which program gives you the best redemption value. I grew up makpid on Cholov Yisroel  (and I am today as well) but after learning the sugya (not hearing a shiur by someone with an agenda) I have come to realize how strong both sides are [Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H] and now respect other's people's choice to not be makpid (however ignorant they may be of the actual issues).
To summarize, it's not the wonderful trustworthy American government R' Moshe (and everyone drinking 'chalav companies' (sic)) is relying on, that's on top of the very strong shita of various achronim about the nature of the issur. So no, Dan, not ironic.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on March 01, 2012, 02:53:26 AM
Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: AsherO on March 01, 2012, 03:25:40 AM
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision. It's very easy to pick apart the well publicized (and ridiculed) parts of the tshuvah, but R' Moshe is actually being more machmir than the previous gedolim who were matir, namely the Pri Chodosh (and others) who lived several hundred years prior. There is a basic machlokes on the nature of the issur of chalav akum. Suffice it to say, without giving a shiur on the topic, there are other things going into the heter, including the fact that it's basically not possible/practical for the company to add other milk (we're not talking about private people in their backyard). Until one goes through the sugya and the teshuva's of R' Moshe, it's worse than a nooB arguing with Dan about which program gives you the best redemption value. I grew up makpid on Cholov Yisroel  (and I am today as well) but after learning the sugya (not hearing a shiur by someone with an agenda) I have come to realize how strong both sides are [Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H] and now respect other's people's choice to not be makpid (however ignorant they may be of the actual issues).
To summarize, it's not the wonderful trustworthy American government R' Moshe (and everyone drinking 'chalav companies' (sic)) is relying on, that's on top of the very strong shita of various achronim about the nature of the issur. So no, Dan, not ironic.

:D

Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)

Right, becuse noone ever brings sandwiches with them on a plane...  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on March 01, 2012, 03:28:06 AM
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision.
I am sorry, but you are totally wrong.
It is more than crystal clear from Reb Moshe's Teshuvos that without the government supervising and enforcing, the milk is DEFINITELY Ossur.
I have gone through the Sugya, and spent a lot of time laying out this issue earlier on in the thread.
Your contention is nonsense, and if you want to stand by it, I invite you to support it with a quote from Reb Moshe (without quoting anything of context).
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on March 01, 2012, 03:35:48 AM
[Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H]
Interesting choice of words.
Chabad does not accept this to be a D'Oraiso.
It is just that, in their view, a D'Rabanan is also something to take seriously.
In any case, it might interest you that the Chassam Sofer opines that according to some opinions, Cholov Yisroel is in fact to be regarded as a D'Oraiso.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on March 01, 2012, 03:39:35 AM
Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available.
But there is the other issue - that Reb Moshe's Psak, despite his unquestionable Gadlus, is virtually a Daas Yochid among the other Poskim of his generation. Why should countless Yidden who follow the Psak of the other Poskim find themselves sidelined on planes.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on March 01, 2012, 03:45:17 AM
Right, becuse noone ever brings sandwiches with them on a plane...  ::) ::) ::)
I'm obviously talking where you end up in that situation, not to plan it. Anyway, a sandwich isn't a yogurt so that's not called CH'Y available.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on March 01, 2012, 03:48:14 AM
Interesting choice of words.
Chabad does not accept this to be a D'Oraiso.
As is quite clear from your quote of me, I said almost.
This is due to the strong opinion of the Alter Rebbe on the matter, as I stated previously.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on March 01, 2012, 03:51:25 AM
Why should countless Yidden who follow the Psak of the other Poskim find themselves sidelined on planes.
My comments were in reference to the shita in general, not at the practice on planes. Caveat emptor and make his voice be heard.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: AsherO on March 01, 2012, 04:18:58 AM
I'm obviously talking where you end up in that situation, not to plan it. Anyway, a sandwich isn't a yogurt so that's not called CH'Y available.

Never heard of cream cheese?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Galitzyaner on July 29, 2013, 07:41:16 PM
I've always heard about this letter, but only recently saw it.

For all those in places like NYC and other areas where Cholov Yisroel is readily available who rely on Reb Moshe's hetter, and buy it l'chatchila.

Publicizing it לתועלת הרבים.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on July 29, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
I've always heard about this letter, but only recently saw it.

For all those in places like NYC and other areas where Cholov Yisroel is readily available who rely on Reb Moshe's hetter, and buy it l'chatchila.

Publicizing it לתועלת הרבים.
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another. R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US is known to be more maikel than his father. I heard first hand from R' Reuvan's grandson that he asked his grandfather if he should be makpid, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you're for sure not" (RR said he is however personally makpid, as he felt it was appropriate for his shteller)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: A European on July 29, 2013, 08:23:17 PM
My father once went with our family  to the mountains in Europe, the owner of the place wasn't Jewish, 

My father told him that PPL in the city say that one of the best milk comes from his farm, and he asked him what is his secret.

So the owner told  him to come with him and showed him a small place with a few DOVOR ACHERL and he told him that he mixed in to the regular milk a little bit of the TRAIFENE milk.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 29, 2013, 08:24:21 PM
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another. R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US is known to be more maikel than his father. I heard first hand from R' Reuvan's grandson that he asked his grandfather if he should be makpid, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you're for sure not" (RR said he is however personally makpid, as he felt it was appropriate for his shteller)
Are you sure there is a teshuva from R Moshe to be meikel?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: smee123 on July 29, 2013, 09:32:45 PM
My father once went with our family  to the mountains in Europe, the owner of the place wasn't Jewish, 

My father told him that PPL in the city say that one of the best milk comes from his farm, and he asked him what is his secret.

So the owner told  him to come with him and showed him a small place with a few DOVOR ACHERL and he told him that he mixed in to the regular milk a little bit of the TRAIFENE milk.
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: robi on July 29, 2013, 09:36:21 PM
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.
thats why r Moshe was only matir in america
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: A European on July 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 29, 2013, 10:02:11 PM
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: A European on July 29, 2013, 10:16:42 PM
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.

What are you trying to say?
HALACHA doesn't require CHOLOV ISROEL?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 29, 2013, 10:34:43 PM
What are you trying to say?
HALACHA doesn't require CHOLOV ISROEL?
According to R Moshe, in the USA, halacha does not require cholov yisroel.

Your story is also not fully relevant since in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka, etc. So the fact that it's technically possible for the milk to be from a pig is irrelevant.  As a matter of fact the issur of cholov stam is not a regular safek that we are afraid it comes from a trief animal, there was a special takana to be chosheish.

Side note: I keep cholov yisroel.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 29, 2013, 10:39:01 PM
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!
R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.

Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)
The Baal Nefesh Yachmir card just means even R Moshe held it is better not to eat it. You're trying to be medayek a gedar in chumras from R Moshe's words...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: A European on July 29, 2013, 10:42:59 PM

Side note: I keep cholov yisroel.
if you want to be melamed zechus on someone else, so I agree to whatever you said.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on July 30, 2013, 12:34:06 AM
public fear of the law.
Does that still exist today?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on July 30, 2013, 06:31:40 AM
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.
R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.
Reb Moshe does constantly use the words חלב הקאמפאניעס במדינתינו, but I do not recall him explicitly saying that “there is a greater fear of the law in the USA” than elsewhere. I would be glad if you could provide a source/quote.
Also, Chelkas Yaakov argues that this is a reason to be Machmir, since someone who is accustomed to be Meikal in USA will not realize that he needs to be Machmir when travelling. A similar sentiment was already expressed by the Tzemach Tzedek, albeit not with regards to the USA, obviously.
Even in the USA, Reb Moshe emphatically prohibited milk purchased directly from the dairy farmers, and only allowed it to be purchased from the companies. How many people know that?

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.
Your story is also not fully relevant since in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka, etc. So the fact that it's technically possible for the milk to be from a pig is irrelevant.  As a matter of fact the issur of cholov stam is not a regular safek that we are afraid it comes from a trief animal, there was a special takana to be chosheish.
 
You words are disingenuous. The איסור in ש"ס ופוסקים is known as חלב שחלבו עכו"ם ואין ישראל רואהו.
Most Achronim accept that Chazal mandated a higher standard than elsewhere, and there has to be actual seeing, or something on that level. [Even Reb Moshe holds of this to some degree.] The fact that “in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka” is not applicable to Chalav Yisroel, because of this higher standard mandated by Chazal. Sure, you can claim that Reb Moshe (and his followers / successors) were Meikel in this regard, but don’t pretend that every other Poisek doesn't exist.

R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.
Does that still exist today?
Mishneh Halachos claims that it doesn’t. [One interesting point he makes is that no self-respecting Frum person would rely on “Kosher Laws” to accept that the meat a butcher was selling is Kosher.]
A while ago, there was circulating an email exchange between Rabbi Aron Teitelbaum (?) and some State and Federal agencies, who went on record saying that there is no real government oversight in this regard.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Galitzyaner on July 30, 2013, 06:45:08 AM
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another.
IIRC, all those "cholov hacompanies... Baal nefesh yachmir etc.." tshuvos are all before this one.
R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US.....
You're kidding, right?! With all due respect to R' Dovid, you know as well as I do that his stature and standing amongst all circles does not come anywhere near his fathers...
Pleease.  How many/when do people even hear of him?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 30, 2013, 07:26:51 AM
Reb Moshe does constantly use the words חלב הקאמפאניעס במדינתינו, but I do not recall him explicitly saying that “there is a greater fear of the law in the USA” than elsewhere. I would be glad if you could provide a source/quote.
מדינתנו = USA.

'זה שאם יערבו יענשו ויצטרכו לסגור העסק שלהם שהוא הרוחה של כמה אלפים והממשלה משגחת אליה,



You words are disingenuous. The איסור in ש"ס ופוסקים is known as חלב שחלבו עכו"ם ואין ישראל רואהו.
Most Achronim accept that Chazal mandated a higher standard than elsewhere, and there has to be actual seeing, or something on that level. [Even Reb Moshe holds of this to some degree.] The fact that “in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka” is not applicable to Chalav Yisroel, because of this higher standard mandated by Chazal. Sure, you can claim that Reb Moshe (and his followers / successors) were Meikel in this regard, but don’t pretend that every other Poisek doesn't exist.

I was merely pointing out the sentimental story has no halchic relevance, since we do not require absolute proof.

By cholov yisroel, even according to the most stringent poskim, we do no't require absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge would be impossible without the consumer himself witnessing it.

One interesting point he makes is that no self-respecting Frum person would rely on “Kosher Laws” to accept that the meat a butcher was selling is Kosher
Au Contraire the level of beriur is actually less for meat than cholov yisroel, because of said takana. The reason it would be unreliable is because  shecita is more complicated than milking a cow.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 30, 2013, 07:35:27 AM
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 30, 2013, 07:39:26 AM

obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.
One would think if all milk needed supervision they would make a lot more money.

Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 30, 2013, 07:42:25 AM
One would think if all milk needed supervision they would make a lot more money.
thousands of companies wouldnt bother with the expense.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on July 30, 2013, 08:56:28 AM
מדינתנו = USA.
'זה שאם יערבו יענשו ויצטרכו לסגור העסק שלהם שהוא הרוחה של כמה אלפים והממשלה משגחת אליה,
That is your interpretation, without firm proof, or even indication, from the Teshuvah.
Anyone could just as easily, or perhaps more easily, (and in fact they do,) apply this to any first-world country with robust laws etc, such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand to name a few, even though there are bound to be subtle differences with regards to "greater fear of the law".
In any case, I think anyone who thinks that Americans in 2013 have a "greater fear of the law" than other (first-world) countries around the world has their head in the sand.


By cholov yisroel, even according to the most stringent poskim, we do no't require absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge would be impossible without the consumer himself witnessing it.
The conumer does not need to witness it himself, but he needs to know that a Yid witnessed it himself.
There may be certain Umdanos which Shulchan Oruch and Nosei Keilim say are so powerful that it is as if a Yid saw it, but this particular Hetter does approach that level, which is why all noteworthy Poskim of the past generation rejected this Hetter, besides for Reb Moshe and his family/students.
As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, my point is not to attack Reb Moshe's Hetter from those who follow it, נהרא נהרא ופשטיה.
I do have a MAJOR problem with those who "market" Reb Moshe's Hetter as "normative" Yiddishkeit, and Cholov Yisroel as some Super-Mega-Chumra-Hiddur meant for Prushim and the like.

Au Contraire the level of beriur is actually less for meat than cholov yisroel, because of said takana. The reason it would be unreliable is because  shecita is more complicated than milking a cow.
I hear you, but that is not true.
Part of the reason (or probably most of the reason) that people would not trust the butcher is not just because of the standard of the Shchittah, but because of a doubt whether it was shechted at all.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Ergel on July 30, 2013, 09:37:40 AM
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
Are you sure?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 30, 2013, 01:06:08 PM
Are you sure?
Re Rav Elyashiv part im sure.
Re rabanut: they do not use cholov stam period (powdered milk is different) so they always have a mashgiach anyway...friend of mine was a milking mashgiach in arizona for tenuva and strause, they took out the DA cows.

This sheila is a serious sheila, much more serious than C"S, there is no "Godol Hador" that I know of that was matir it...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: shmuelb on July 31, 2013, 10:02:15 AM
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.

Please give a little respect.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: flatbush guy on July 31, 2013, 01:28:38 PM
I find it interesting that R'Moshes meikel psak about cholov yisroel is not "relied upon" in some circles (what I mean really is attacked)while in serious life and death issues R'Moshe is seen as one of the biggest poskim.
Cholov akum is ossur mederabonnon.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.
Also,I think that many rabbonim where maskim with R'Moshe.
Also the Chazon Ish held that powdered milk is ok  if i'm not mistaken and that is what cholov akum products are made of.
Bekitser, hamachmir tovo olov berocho.
To me what's interesting is why chodosh, is seen as no problem when it is ossur medeoraysa according to most rishoinim even in chutz lo'oretz. (i think r'moshe was also meikel here)

I don't know why this issue has become so controversial
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 31, 2013, 01:35:27 PM
Also the Chazon Ish held that powdered milk is ok  if i'm not mistaken and that is what cholov akum products are made of.

R Tzvi Pesach Frank was mattir, the Chazon Ish was not mattir. The heter is completely different from R Moshe's.

Since R TPF was mattier lechatichla, and R Moshe said it is better not to rely on his heter, I eat powdered milk but not regular milk. I've actually been quite curious what Frozen Yogurt (16 Handles, etc) is made out of.... anyone?

I don't know why this issue has become so controversial
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on July 31, 2013, 04:04:12 PM
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.

Like
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on July 31, 2013, 07:57:50 PM
I find it interesting that R'Moshes meikel psak about cholov yisroel is not "relied upon" in some circles (what I mean really is attacked)while in serious life and death issues R'Moshe is seen as one of the biggest poskim.
What is not to get?
He was very Meikal with Cholov, and very Machmir with regards to Pikuach Hanefesh.
[Borrowing on Reb Chaim Brisker's famous vort.]
Cholov akum is ossur mederabonnon.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.
I take it you haven't read this whole thread ...
Also,I think that many rabbonim where maskim with R'Moshe.
Please back that up with a list.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: shmuelb on August 01, 2013, 08:08:27 AM
To me what's interesting is why chodosh, is seen as no problem when it is ossur medeoraysa according to most rishoinim even in chutz lo'oretz. (i think r'moshe was also meikel here)

That is why some people are meikel with Chalav Company but machir on Yashan.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 01, 2013, 01:31:29 PM

In any case, I think anyone who thinks that Americans in 2013 have a "greater fear of the law" than other (first-world) countries around the world has their head in the sand.

.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.

The conumer does not need to witness it himself, but he needs to know that a Yid witnessed it himself.
There may be certain Umdanos which Shulchan Oruch and Nosei Keilim say are so powerful that it is as if a Yid saw it , but this particular Hetter does approach that level, which is why all noteworthy Poskim of the past generation rejected this Hetter, besides for Reb Moshe and his family/students.


I recently learnt the sugya of cholov akum (albeit not lehalacha lemaisa) and it seems to me that Flatbush guy makes a good point,

Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing. This fear is nothing other than embarrassment or loss of money, even had the jew caught the gentile in the act of adding pig milk the worst he could do was not buy from him and ruin his business reputation somewhat.

I don't think it's a major chiddush at all to say that a company would be scared of the negative PR and fines they would incur, they don't need to be cowering under their beds to be considered mirsus. Take for instance the recent backlash that ensued when it seemed that Maker's Mark was going to start adding more water to their bourbon, or when a juice company (Naked brand i think) wrote non GMO and it turned out not to be true. I believe that these are exactly like the mirsus of the gemara, maybe worse!

I think the major point of contention is the fact that most early achronim didn't agree to this view. That being said, R' Moshe never felt the need to go with the opinion of the early achronim if his view of the gemara and reshonim differed (see hakdama to igrus moshe) So this is simply one of the numerous cases where R' Moshe argued on most if not all of the major achronim. Because of this there are many who don't rely on R' Moshe's kulos very much (particularly most big Israeli Poskim). But for the majority (of the the pre-brisker yeshiva) Americans who accepted many of R' Moshe's kullos (this may have changed somewhat due to the advent of "the chumra du joir" mentality) this kulla is not very noteworthy or mechudash. R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake. (I only wonder why he saidthat a Baal Nefesh should be machmir)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Chaikel on August 01, 2013, 06:49:56 PM
I recently learnt the sugya of cholov akum (albeit not lehalacha lemaisa) and it seems to me that Flatbush guy makes a good point,

Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing.
Could you try to get a mareh makom on this
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 01, 2013, 07:00:39 PM
Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing. This fear is nothing other than embarrassment or loss of money, even had the jew caught the gentile in the act of adding pig milk the worst he could do was not buy from him and ruin his business reputation somewhat.

I don't think it's a major chiddush at all to say that a company would be scared of the negative PR and fines they would incur, they don't need to be cowering under their beds to be considered mirsus. Take for instance the recent backlash that ensued when it seemed that Maker's Mark was going to start adding more water to their bourbon, or when a juice company (Naked brand i think) wrote non GMO and it turned out not to be true. I believe that these are exactly like the mirsus of the gemara, maybe worse!
מעשה לסתור
 ???
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 01, 2013, 07:07:02 PM
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.
I think we'll need some Rashi and Tosfos for that one.
מעשה לסתור
 ???
Yeah, so much for the mirsus.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 01, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
Could you try to get a mareh makom on this
A Braisa the brought in עבודה זרה דף לט עמוד ב:
יושב ישראל בצד עדרו של עובד כוכבים ועובד כוכבים חולב לו ומביא לו, ואינו חושש
The Gemoro explains that the Braisa is talking about this circumstance:
דאיכא דבר טמא בעדרו, וכי קאי חזי ליה, וכי יתיב לא חזי ליה, מהו דתימא כיון דיתיב לא חזי ליה, ניחוש דלמא מייתי ומערב ביה, קמ"ל כיון דכי קאי חזי ליה, אירתותי מירתת ולא מיערב ביה
Mirsus might help for other Issurim, but there is a higher standard of Mirsus for Cholov Yisroel ... I suggest you have a look at Shach YD 115:8, where he concludes that Mirsus is NOT sufficient, and a Yid must actually be watching. With regards to Cholov, Chazal instituted that the Mirsus must be based on the fact that a Yid is in the vicinity of the milking process, and could easily “pop up” and see exactly what is happening. A lesser form of Mirsus is insufficient. 
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 01, 2013, 08:49:41 PM
מעשה לסתור
 ???
absolutely not, certainly mirsus doesn't mean that there cannot possibly be an instance where someone would do it regardless of the fear.
It simply means that there is a strong deterent. My point was that if we witness the public outcry, the PR backlash of one of those instances it is clear that any american company would try and avoid it at all cause, hence the story backs my point quite well; that even if there isn't an overt fear of the law, there is a mirsus akin to the gemara

As far as the Shach you quoted goes, I want to recheck it again, but it has no bearing on Flatbush Guy's or my point, which is that in Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut, and as for arguing with the shach, that wouldn't bother R' Moshe either.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2013, 08:55:22 PM
Some relevant info regarding Rav Moshes heter today: : http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/cholov-stam-an-update-from-the-farm-and-lab/ 
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 01, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
absolutely not, certainly mirsus doesn't mean that there cannot possibly be an instance where someone would do it regardless of the fear.
It simply means that there is a strong deterent. My point was that if we witness the public outcry, the PR backlash of one of those instances it is clear that any american company would try and avoid it at all cause, hence the story backs my point quite well; that even if there isn't an overt fear of the law, there is a mirsus akin to the gemara
So you are basically saying that two things which are not equal (seeing, strong deterrence) are clearly equal.
With a handle like yours, I am afraid to argue.
But I am curious whether you read this whole thread, as a lot of the discussion last year does away with your “argument”.
As far as the Shach you quoted goes, I want to recheck it again, but it has no bearing on Flatbush Guy's or my point, which is that in Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut, and as for arguing with the shach, that wouldn't bother R' Moshe either.
Your line of thinking is just incredible.
“The Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut” … but the Shach didn’t manage to work that out.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 01, 2013, 09:05:30 PM
Some relevant info regarding Rav Moshes heter today: : http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/cholov-stam-an-update-from-the-farm-and-lab/ 
http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf (http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf)
See the email exchange with government agencies at the end of the document.
So, who should we believe?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2013, 09:27:38 PM
We shouldnt eat OUD mechashash cholov treifa. Nothing left to debate  :P
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 01, 2013, 09:38:13 PM
http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf (http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf)
See the email exchange with government agencies at the end of the document.
So, who should we believe?
Thanks for the link.  Great stuff!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 01, 2013, 09:56:05 PM
So you are basically saying that two things which are not equal (seeing, strong deterrence) are clearly equal.
With a handle like yours, I am afraid to argue.
But I am curious whether you read this whole thread, as a lot of the discussion last year does away with your “argument”.Your line of thinking is just incredible.
“The Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut” … but the Shach didn’t manage to work that out.
I did read the whole thread but the majority before i learnt the sugya. Had the gemara not said clearly that "seeing" didn't always mean literally i would agree they aren't the same at all. But being that the gemara does make that distinction, i would seem clear to me (it's not a logical imperative, it's my opinion) that they are in fact equal. I obviously would simply be mevatel my personal opinion to that of the poskim, but after R' Moshe learns this way, i believe it is quite alright to say that his is the simple pshat and that the Shach is a rather mechudash pshat in the gemara.
Once again you have missed the point iv'e been making; according to R' Moshe's derech halimud and psak, cholov stam is no big chidush.

On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.   
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2013, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: steeeveknowsbest link=topic=13
On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.
-1
kach hi darkah shel Torah. Oirayso hu derotach beih
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 01, 2013, 11:10:49 PM
I did read the whole thread but the majority before i learnt the sugya. Had the gemara not said clearly that "seeing" didn't always mean literally i would agree they aren't the same at all. But being that the gemara does make that distinction, i would seem clear to me (it's not a logical imperative, it's my opinion) that they are in fact equal. I obviously would simply be mevatel my personal opinion to that of the poskim, but after R' Moshe learns this way, i believe it is quite alright to say that his is the simple pshat and that the Shach is a rather mechudash pshat in the gemara.].
Once again you have missed the point iv'e been making; according to R' Moshe's derech halimud and psak, cholov stam is no big chidush.
I am not so sure that Reb Moshe himself felt it was so Poshut.
See YD 1:47 where he explains his שיטה that "ידיעה ברורה הוא כראיה ממש", and his proofs.
Of course if he says this, this is what he holds.
But I am not sure that his Teshuvah conveys that it is so "Poshut".
On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.   
As I have said numerous times throughout this thread, my purpose is not to dissuade anyone from following Reb Moshe.
It is not necessary (and would also amount to nothing) for me to say that יש על מי לסמוך.
What does bother me, and many other people on the forums, is those who present Reb Moshe as עיקר הדין, and everyone else as חומרות והידורים that כלל ישראל shouldn't need to cater to. It is beyond certain that this was not Reb Moshe's intent.
That is how this thread started - the disregard that Kosher caterers have with regards to airline meals, and the passenger just has to accept it.

When I post, it is pretty clear that I do not mean anything personal against anyone, because I do not know a single person here by name - besides Reb Dan. So, if I get carried away in the heat of the moment, I don't see it as a problem. [Especially as there are many other heated exchanges on this forum - sometimes about complete Narishkeit.] But if others here feel the same as you do and PM me, I can try to tone it down.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 01, 2013, 11:36:26 PM
-1
kach hi darkah shel Torah. Oirayso hu derotach beih
on the other hand Darcheha darchai noam v'kol nisivoseha shalom and look at what it says in Pirkei Avos about Torah Le'Kanter,

Clearly there is a balance which fits both sides of the coin. I'm not pushing a liberal, mellow let's all be friends Weltanschauung, my feeling is that when someone makes a point calmly and in your counter argument you personal attack him, his motives or his intelligence, this is not the milchama of Torah.

Besides this is a forum not a bais medrash, i don't think that the gemara style machlokes has a place here even if it is appropriate in the BM.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 02, 2013, 12:02:53 AM
I am not so sure that Reb Moshe himself felt it was so Poshut.
See YD 1:47 where he explains his שיטה that "ידיעה ברורה הוא כראיה ממש", and his proofs.
Of course if he says this, this is what he holds.
But I am not sure that his Teshuvah conveys that it is so "Poshut"
R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake.
this seems to me to indicate that R' Moshe didn't really see another tzad, perhaps i'm mistaken.

When I post, it is pretty clear that I do not mean anything personal against anyone, because I do not know a single person here by name - besides Reb Dan. So, if I get carried away in the heat of the moment, I don't see it as a problem. [Especially as there are many other heated exchanges on this forum - sometimes about complete Narishkeit.] But if others here feel the same as you do and PM me, I can try to tone it down.
Not knowing someone or the fact that others do so as well does in no way give one carte blanche to treat people as they please. I guess you'll see if others feel the way i do, i don't consider myself to be overly sensitive. Thanks for considering my view though.

just FYI i personally am and have always been machmir not to eat cholov stam.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: dirah on August 02, 2013, 12:18:08 AM
R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake.
this seems to me to indicate that R' Moshe didn't really see another tzad, perhaps i'm mistaken.
This is not so.
Reb Moshe is addressing a simple - independent - issue.
Granted that one wishes to be סומך on those who are מיקל, but since he was מחמיר up until now, he might think he needs to continue being מחמיר, due to a totally separate concern - that since he did it three times, it has the status of a נדר.
As we say in התרת נדרים, any good practice done three times has the status of a נדר to some degree:
או אֵיזו הַנְהָגָה טובָה שֶׁנָּהַגְתִּי שָׁלשׁ פְּעָמִים וְלא הִתְנֵיתִי שֶׁיְּהֵא בְּלִי נֶדֶר

So Reb Moshe is clarifying - as most other Poskim hold - that when one did a certain practice three times due to a misconception, (in our case he thought that there are no Poskim who hold you can be מיקל with regards to חלב), this does not have the תוקף of a נדר.

Another famous example of this: Some Poskim say that if someone was careful to give מעשר כספים because he thought it was a דרבנן, and then he discovers that others hold that it is only a מנהג and he wants to be מיקל, he doesn't have to be concerned about הלכות נדרים, because his original conduct was based on a misconception.
Obviously, these Poskim do not mean to say that there is no Tzad to say מעשר כספים is מדרבנן.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: steeeveknowsbest on August 02, 2013, 02:35:00 AM
This is not so.
Reb Moshe is addressing a simple - independent - issue.
Granted that one wishes to be סומך on those who are מיקל, but since he was מחמיר up until now, he might think he needs to continue being מחמיר, due to a totally separate concern - that since he did it three times, it has the status of a נדר.
As we say in התרת נדרים, any good practice done three times has the status of a נדר to some degree:
או אֵיזו הַנְהָגָה טובָה שֶׁנָּהַגְתִּי שָׁלשׁ פְּעָמִים וְלא הִתְנֵיתִי שֶׁיְּהֵא בְּלִי נֶדֶר

So Reb Moshe is clarifying - as most other Poskim hold - that when one did a certain practice three times due to a misconception, (in our case he thought that there are no Poskim who hold you can be מיקל with regards to חלב), this does not have the תוקף of a נדר.

Another famous example of this: Some Poskim say that if someone was careful to give מעשר כספים because he thought it was a דרבנן, and then he discovers that others hold that it is only a מנהג and he wants to be מיקל, he doesn't have to be concerned about הלכות נדרים, because his original conduct was based on a misconception.
Obviously, these Poskim do not mean to say that there is no Tzad to say מעשר כספים is מדרבנן.
My understanding of the tshuva is that the misconception involved is that he thought that chalav stam is asur, which R' Moshe is saying that there isn't any issur accross the board but if there was any tzad then R' Moshe would require hatara as it would be a safek neder, I'll have to look at it again, to see if the mashmaus is like you say.

Title: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
Is there even such a thing as cholov stam outside the US?

Sure there is.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: rots5 on June 03, 2014, 11:25:33 AM
Sure there is.
Firstly pls explain, second... why the recent switch?
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 11:30:26 AM
Milk for one.
Switch?
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: rots5 on June 03, 2014, 11:32:06 AM
Milk for one.
Switch?
The 'heter' of cholov stam is the fact that R Moshe knew in the US that either the company wouldnt add pig milk. (or in his newer tshuva) there was cameras.. mirsus.

switch ur avatar.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 11:35:21 AM
The 'heter' of cholov stam is the fact that R Moshe knew in the US that either the company wouldnt add pig milk. (or in his newer tshuva) there was cameras.. mirsus.

switch ur avatar.

There are other countries and Rabbis who hold that the government rules are trustworthy and permit dairy as well for this reason.
I know I've eaten a Mars bar in Europe that was kosher and chalav stam. The idea def exists.

And I was messing around with Avatars at the dentist office to pass the time. :)
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: rots5 on June 03, 2014, 12:35:41 PM
There are other countries and Rabbis who hold that the government rules are trustworthy and permit dairy as well for this reason.
I know I've eaten a Mars bar in Europe that was kosher and chalav stam. The idea def exists.

And I was messing around with Avatars at the dentist office to pass the time. :)
Ok, had no idea this was a worldwide possibility
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 12:43:03 PM
Maybe someone who lives in Europe can chime in but that's just from my experience.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 12:47:05 PM
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...

Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 12:50:17 PM
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...

I think most people in religious communities abroad drink only cholov yisroel, no?  It only comes up while travelling.   How do the agencies give hechshee approval on items unless their sure about the milk??
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 12:52:04 PM
I think most people in religious communities abroad drink only cholov yisroel, no?
Of course not.  But someone who knows the sugya and history is only fooling themself...the people that don't think the government should have their hand in anything due to mismanagement but rely on them for religions observance on something the government says they don't even watch out for is mind-boggling.

How do the agencies give hechshee approval on items unless their sure about the milk??
Beats me. Those that investigated found out that it's not something actively enforced, tested,  or penalized.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Of course not.  But someone who knows the sugya and history is only fooling themself...the people that don't think the government should have their hand in anything due to mismanagement but rely on them for religions observance on something the government says they don't even watch out for is mind-boggling.
Beats me. Those that investigated found out that it's not something actively enforced, tested,  or penalized.

It's quite interesting. Especially in a country like France that has a quite a bit of religous Jews. Not sure if things have changed but last I knew they only had boxed chalav yisroel milk.

Or even why they can't have a chalav stam milk WITH a hechsher is beyond me.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: lunatic on June 03, 2014, 01:02:07 PM
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...



Financial? I just bought CY ingredients for cheesecake.... costs close to 3 times as much as non-CY
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 01:05:24 PM
Def.
I eat cholov stam. Certain things are WAY more expensive cholov yisroel such as milk, butter and ice cream. Cheese is pretty well priced.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 01:07:36 PM
A half gallon of POTF Ice Cream is $7.99.  How much cheaper can non-CY possibly be?

Triple the price seems like a massive exaggeration to me.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 01:10:55 PM
A half gallon of POTF Ice Cream is $7.99.  How much cheaper can non-CY possibly be?

Triple the price seems like a massive exaggeration to me.

I think it depends on the city you live in and what's available C"Y wise.
When there isn't a lot available and only one store selling C'Y hicking up the prices.....

I can buy a half gal of ice cream for as low $2.50 on sale ... To around $5.99
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on June 03, 2014, 01:11:39 PM
I think it depends on the city you live in and what's available C"Y wise.
When there isn't a lot available and only one store selling C'Y hicking up the prices.....

I can buy a half gal of ice cream for as low $2.50 on sale ... To around $5.99
there are always sales at major chains where you can spend no more than $2.50
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 01:13:02 PM
there are always sales at major chains where you can spend no more than $2.50
Well then I'll be happy to eat my words.
Either way, I don't think the $5 for Ice Cream is causing too many a hardship.  And luckily Costco sells cheap CY cheese.

What's the price spread for Milk?
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on June 03, 2014, 01:13:46 PM
Well then I'll be happy to eat my words.
Either way, I don't think the $5 for Ice Cream is causing too many a hardship.  And luckily Costco sells cheap CY cheese.

What's the price spread for Milk?
not sure exactly, but last i checked, it isnt enough to be an excuse to have chalav stam
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: Emkay on June 03, 2014, 01:13:50 PM

Slightly on topic.
I sent a request yesterday about kosher diamond breakfast to hyatt in greece and this was the response. Does this mean its cholov stam or not neccesarally?

Dear emkay,

Regarding your below request we would like to inform you that we could provide dairy kosher style breakfast only.

Unfortunately we are not able to provide glad kosher breakfast and all our food items, are purchased from Greek market and not halav Israel food products.

We remain yours for any further inquiries you may need

Best Regards,

Olga Argyropoulou

Reservations Supervisor

HYATT REGENCY THESSALONIKI
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 01:17:57 PM
not sure exactly, but last i checked, it isnt enough to be an excuse to have chalav stam

But it's enough that I won't buy CY unless I'm feeding someone who eats it.
Ice cream is a bad example really cuz it's not a basic. (And cuz non cy ice creams tatstes way better :P )
C"Y milk.  Half gal $5.99 (and it doesn't last as long though that's prob the markets fault)
Non CY milk half gal $1.99


When I lived in Baltimore I ate CY a lot more. Better prices and better products.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on June 03, 2014, 01:18:21 PM
But it's enough that I won't buy CY unless I'm feeding someone who eats it.
Ice cream is a bad example really cuz it's not a basic. (And cuz non cy ice creams tatstes way better :P )
C"Y milk.  Half gal $5.99 (and it doesn't last as long though that's prob the markets fault)
Non CY milk half gal $1.99
we shop in different places
i have probably seen half that price
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: lunatic on June 03, 2014, 01:32:05 PM
Well then I'll be happy to eat my words.
Either way, I don't think the $5 for Ice Cream is causing too many a hardship.  And luckily Costco sells cheap CY cheese.

What's the price spread for Milk?

Cs is about 65 percent of Cy. And that is in Baltimore... Where the community is large.
And Cs is even cheaper if you go to Costco or BJ's
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Joe4007 on June 03, 2014, 01:38:39 PM
Half gal $5.99 (and it doesn't last as long though that's prob the markets fault)
Non CY milk half gal $1.99
In NY the CY is more in the $3 range (or even lower).
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: notanonymous on June 03, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
But it's enough that I won't buy CY unless I'm feeding someone who eats it.
Ice cream is a bad example really cuz it's not a basic. (And cuz non cy ice creams tatstes way better :P )
C"Y milk.  Half gal $5.99 (and it doesn't last as long though that's prob the markets fault)
Non CY milk half gal $1.99


When I lived in Baltimore I ate CY a lot more. Better prices and better products.
When I lived OOT, I would pay $5.99 for 1/2 gal and $10.99 for a gallon if milk.  American cheese was $28.99 for a brick (108 slices?).  Frozen pizza was $18.99.
And this was 6+ years ago.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 01:44:16 PM
Cs is about 65 percent of Cy. And that is in Baltimore... Where the community is large.
And Cs is even cheaper if you go to Costco or BJ's
Either way the tens of dollars over the course of a year aren't a "hardship" for 95% of folks...these aren't the days of having to go out to the farm to milk a cow yourself or pay someone to do it for you personally.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 01:45:18 PM
When I lived OOT, I would pay $5.99 for 1/2 gal and $10.99 for a gallon if milk.  American cheese was $28.99 for a brick (108 slices?).  Frozen pizza was $18.99.
And this was 6+ years ago.
Costco sells all kinds of CY cheese of under $5/pound in almost all OOT communities.  And cheap Pizza and pizza bagels as well if that's your thing.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: sky121 on June 03, 2014, 01:45:31 PM
we shop in different places
i have probably seen half that price

Like I said, it all depends where you live and what's available.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on June 03, 2014, 02:28:50 PM
When I lived OOT, I would pay $5.99 for 1/2 gal and $10.99 for a gallon if milk.  American cheese was $28.99 for a brick (108 slices?).  Frozen pizza was $18.99.
And this was 6+ years ago.
It hasn't gone up since then due to inflation, it's gone down due to increased supply.
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: henche on June 03, 2014, 02:29:39 PM
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...

They put vaccines in the milk.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 03, 2014, 02:31:15 PM
They put vaccines in the milk.
If you drink the milk you don't need a VA appointment to treat that tumor for at least 18 months.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Moshe123 on June 03, 2014, 02:53:32 PM
Does anyone have a pdf of the mehadrin kuntres from before Pesach? There were some pretty damning stories with today's cholov akum.
Yeah, they're a business, but there were some real arguments about major problems that have arisen since Reb Moshe's psak that didn't exist then.
I managed to forget the content.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2014, 03:47:59 PM
I've seen stam CS in a local dollar store for 99c. A comparable size CY cream cheese in Lakewood is 4.99.
Its still not  שבער צו זיין איד:)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 03, 2014, 04:06:02 PM
Does anyone have a pdf of the mehadrin kuntres from before Pesach? There were some pretty damning stories with today's cholov akum.
Yeah, they're a business, but there were some real arguments about major problems that have arisen since Reb Moshe's psak that didn't exist then.
I managed to forget the content.

What kind of problems?  Are there secret pig dairy farms where they milk pigs and then sneak it into our milk?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: lunatic on June 03, 2014, 04:13:51 PM
I've seen stam CS in a local dollar store for 99c. A comparable size CY cream cheese in Lakewood is 4.99.
Its still not  שבער צו זיין איד:)

+1 I got a bargain... 4.59 for Cy cream cheese. Cs was 1.29
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
What kind of problems?  Are there secret pig dairy farms where they milk pigs and then sneak it into our milk?
no, DA cows are treif. CS milk does not have supervision over the milking process and therefore they do not separate the DA traif cows from the herd. They rely on dubious uncompleted teshuvos, written by rav hamachshirs that literally had absolutely no choice but to come up with a "heter".... (There was no option to take the OU of thousands of products)
FTR, Rav elyashiv paskend that CS is cholov treifa.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 03, 2014, 04:58:10 PM
no, DA cows are treif. CS milk does not have supervision over the milking process and therefore they do not separate the DA traif cows from the herd. They rely on dubious uncompleted teshuvos, written by rav hamachshirs that literally had absolutely no choice but to come up with a "heter".... (There was no option to take the OU of thousands of products)
FTR, Rav elyashiv paskend that CS is cholov treifa.

oh that. That's nothing new. We've known about that for years and years.

I seem to recall some decent posts about it on YWN, if you can get past the OT lunacies. Here, I searched for chalav treifah and found it http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chalav-stam-no-such-a-thing

Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2014, 05:03:09 PM
oh that. That's nothing new. We've known about that for years and years.

I seem to recall some decent posts about it on YWN, if you can get past the OT lunacies. Here, I searched for chalav treifah and found it http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chalav-stam-no-such-a-thing

Here is the official OU opinion (looks like they are trying too/very hard...)

http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/


And the other side:

http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2007/07/cholov-stam-cholov-akum-cholov-treife.html?m=1
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: aygart on June 03, 2014, 05:11:49 PM
no, DA cows are treif. CS milk does not have supervision over the milking process and therefore they do not separate the DA traif cows from the herd. They rely on dubious uncompleted teshuvos, written by rav hamachshirs that literally had absolutely no choice but to come up with a "heter".... (There was no option to take the OU of thousands of products)
FTR, Rav elyashiv paskend that CS is cholov treifa.
don't just repeat his nonsense about it being unfinished. Just look in Rav Belsky's sefer
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2014, 05:54:45 PM
don't just repeat his nonsense about it being unfinished. Just look in Rav Belsky's sefer
OK. wtvr, the point was that the teshuva originally was marked incomplete.

There was no choice but to be mattir.
Should we rely on the OU's shaas hadchak?
Title: Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
Post by: ryg on June 03, 2014, 09:56:43 PM
When I lived OOT, I would pay $5.99 for 1/2 gal and $10.99 for a gallon if milk.  American cheese was $28.99 for a brick (108 slices?).  Frozen pizza was $18.99.
And this was 6+ years ago.

These are still the prices today in the smaller out of town communities - I live in Portland, Oregon and a block of American cheese is $27-28.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Armadillo on June 04, 2014, 06:28:42 PM
Either way the tens of dollars over the course of a year aren't a "hardship" for 95% of folks..
Way to play it down...if the numbers here are true, any decent sized family buying milk in an out of town community would be paying in the vicinity of $500 more a year for CY, not just 'tens' (and that's just for milk)
I definitely know families that $500 would go a long way
(full disclosure: I'm makpid on CY and encourage its use)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2014, 04:17:19 PM
These are still the prices today in the smaller out of town communities - I live in Portland, Oregon and a block of American cheese is $27-28.
Costco doesn't sell cheese in PDX?

Way to play it down...if the numbers here are true, any decent sized family buying milk in an out of town community would be paying in the vicinity of $500 more a year for CY, not just 'tens' (and that's just for milk)
I definitely know families that $500 would go a long way
(full disclosure: I'm makpid on CY and encourage its use)
We go through a half gallon of milk a week=$169/year at 3.25/bottle.  The non-CY stuff would save perhaps $80/year. (Tens of dollars or TODs is a famous battle cry on the UA FT board.)
Cheese is the same price thanks to Costco.

Also big families (and even small families) here where $500 would make a big difference get free milk from WIC.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: lunatic on June 06, 2014, 04:35:21 PM
Costco doesn't sell cheese in PDX?
We go through a half gallon of milk a week=$169/year at 3.25/bottle.  The non-CY stuff would save perhaps $80/year. (Tens of dollars or TODs is a famous battle cry on the UA FT board.)
Cheese is the same price thanks to Costco.

Also big families (and even small families) here where $500 would make a big difference get free milk from WIC.

My family is not big, but my son himself drinks 3 gallons a week... aside from the rest of us
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 06, 2014, 04:36:59 PM
My family is not big, but my son himself drinks 3 gallons a week... aside from the rest of us

He must be as big as a medium size calf by now
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 06, 2014, 04:38:52 PM
Time is also money.  I barely have a chance to get to stop and shop once in a while and get groceries.  CY milk is only available once a week and would mean another errand which I simply don't have time for.

My friend who keeps CY just drinks soy milk instead
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: lunatic on June 06, 2014, 04:40:20 PM
Time is also money.  I barely have a chance to get to stop and shop once in a while and get groceries.  CY milk is only available once a week and would mean another errand which I simply don't have time for.

My friend who keeps CY just drinks soy milk instead
And it is probably cheaper
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2014, 04:46:16 PM
Once a week? Huh?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: ah on June 06, 2014, 04:48:56 PM
Time is also money.  I barely have a chance to get to stop and shop once in a while and get groceries.  CY milk is only available once a week and would mean another errand which I simply don't have time for.

My friend who keeps CY just drinks soy milk instead
milk can be frozen actually, if it's your only option, stock up
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: sky121 on June 06, 2014, 05:16:42 PM
It's safe to say I wouldn't stop keeping CY just because of the money or inconvenience. Especially if that were my minhag. But with the prices the way they are I won't start keeping it. But that really goes down to your beliefs and opinions about eating CY to begin with.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 06, 2014, 05:17:56 PM
Once a week? Huh?

Yessir.  i live in the real out of towns. 

(Actually, BOS is a neat place to live, because it's sort of on the edge of civilization.  It is a large full service city (minus the frum stuff), and only 3.5 hours from NY, but go north or east and its all wild.  I'm 2 hours from NH's white mountains, and maybe 4 to areas of ME where there are more moose than people and the roads are dirt logging roads.)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: moko on June 06, 2014, 05:39:45 PM
Once a week? Huh?
when I was growing up in St. Louis, it was once a month, IIRC.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 06, 2014, 05:41:58 PM
As WIC recipients, we get a couple of cases of milk a month. They freeze very well and we just take one out of the freezer every night, and never have to worry about running out. (or paying  ;)  :-[  :P )
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: smee123 on June 06, 2014, 06:03:08 PM
As WIC recipients, we get a couple of cases of milk a month. They freeze very well and we just take one out of the freezer every night, and never have to worry about running out. (or paying  ;)  :-[  :P )
aaahhh....
The good old days  :)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: lunatic on June 06, 2014, 06:25:18 PM
As WIC recipients, we get a couple of cases of milk a month. They freeze very well and we just take one out of the freezer every night, and never have to worry about running out. (or paying  ;)  :-[  :P )
Let's keep this thread for those of us who pay for our groceries
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 06, 2014, 06:33:33 PM
Let's keep this thread for those of us who pay for our groceries
The point was that milk is freezable. For those who live out of town and have a hard time keeping CY.

Im glad that you can afford to pay for your groceries btw. You are very fortunate; but why keep the poor out of the thread  ???
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: ah on June 06, 2014, 06:38:57 PM
The point was that milk is freezable. For those who live out of town and have a hard time keeping CY.

Im glad that you can afford to pay for your groceries btw. You are very fortunate; but why keep the poor out of the thread  ???
nothing against WIC or the people benefitting but, can I ask how you are able to "churnbabychurn" with an income that makes you eligible for WIC? What's the secret there? Some of us have a hard time with a decent income...
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 06, 2014, 06:44:55 PM
nothing against WIC or the people benefitting but, can I ask how you are able to "churnbabychurn" with an income that makes you eligible for WIC? What's the secret there? Some of us have a hard time with a decent income...
To be eligible for WIC a family of my size has to gross less than 51k annually.

I might be CBC but still haven't reached $50k+ annual income from churning. 
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Saver2000 on June 06, 2014, 07:02:18 PM
Okay.  Time to continue the wic convo in another thread.
Thanx. 
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 06, 2014, 07:08:15 PM
Frozen milk illustration:
Rip one side of case before freezing, they expand.. Do not use a box cutter!!
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 06, 2014, 07:56:57 PM
I'm shocked that people here would make a Ruchniyus decision based on $500/yr.

I just spent 10 times that to be in yeshiva Shavous night, and I'm sure the real value is 1000 times that.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2014, 08:00:37 PM
I'm shocked that people here would make a Ruchniyus decision based on $500/yr.
Agreed. Raising a frum family is a 7 figure investment when everything is said and done. To make C"Y a monetary issue in an era when we're not talking big bucks is disheartening.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: sky121 on June 06, 2014, 08:03:48 PM
I'm shocked that people here would make a Ruchniyus decision based on $500/yr.

I just spent 10 times that to be in yeshiva Shavous night, and I'm sure the real value is 1000 times that.

That again depends on a persons minhag, and their view on C"Y to begin with IMO.
I don't eat chalav stam just because it's cheaper. But I would perhaps eat it if it wasn't more expensive. That's just me at least.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: henche on June 07, 2014, 11:29:00 PM
I'm shocked that people here would make a Ruchniyus decision based on $500/yr.

Not so surprising.  We grew up eating CS. Our friends eat CS. Many of our rebbeim eat CS.  Its pure inertia also
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: george on June 08, 2014, 12:04:20 AM
Not so surprising.  We grew up eating CS. Our friends eat CS. Many of our rebbeim eat CS.  Its pure inertia also
+1
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: ganizzy on June 08, 2014, 02:03:59 AM
There's also the point that if everyone only ate cy the price would go down. as more companies would start offering it,  more companies would produce it.
As a side note,  I can't believe process in Lakewood are so high,  in California we are paying those prices and we have to cover refrigerated shipping.
Till this year,  California produced is own cy milk. Price was about 2 for half a gallon.  Now it's 4.59
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2014, 10:50:23 AM
According to this article, companies use milk powder from all over the world. These powders would not have reb moshes heter.
Does the OU not allow milk powder from out of the usa?

http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2014/05/milk-in-todays-times.html#more
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 17, 2014, 11:49:24 AM
According to this article, companies use milk powder from all over the world. These powders would not have reb moshes heter.
Does the OU not allow milk powder from out of the usa?

http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2014/05/milk-in-todays-times.html#more
Milk powder has a completely sep heter from R Tzvi Pesach Frank (before R Moshe)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
Milk powder has a completely sep heter from R Tzvi Pesach Frank (before R Moshe)
True.
Title: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:31:18 AM
Or Cholov Aku"m
Why do you insist on calling something kosher, treif?
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Emkay on January 22, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
Why do you insist on calling something kosher, treif?
He wasn't.
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:41:07 AM
He wasn't.
Can you please explain
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2015, 09:41:30 AM
Why do you insist on calling something kosher, treif?
Can you please explain
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:43:23 AM

Sure, cholov stam is kosher just because you have a chumra not to drink it is not a reason to be motzei laaz on people who do by calling it treif
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Emkay on January 22, 2015, 09:44:33 AM
Sure, cholov stam is kosher just because you have a chumra not to drink it is not a reason to be motzei laaz on people who do by calling it treif
He never called it treif
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:45:11 AM
He never called it treif
Cholov akum = treif
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Dan on January 22, 2015, 09:45:48 AM
I never believed that it really dulls the mind, but now I'm having 2nd thoughts ;)
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Emkay on January 22, 2015, 09:46:07 AM
Cholov akum = treif
Then your drinking treif
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:48:26 AM
Then your drinking treif
Cholov stam and cholov akum are 2 different things and cholov akum is treif like in most countries around the world and cholov Stam is kosher
 BTW I do not drink cholov stam
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2015, 09:49:53 AM
Sure, cholov stam is kosher just because you have a chumra not to drink it is not a reason to be motzei laaz on people who do by calling it treif
Did I say a word about Cholov Stam?

Second (and I really don't want to turn this into another popcorn thread): that quote is not accurate. Technically, Eating Cholov Stam is a Kullah not the other way around...
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: thaber on January 22, 2015, 09:49:55 AM
I liked borsalino alternative conversations better than m&m alternatives
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:51:29 AM
Did I say a word about Cholov Stam?

Second (and I really don't want to turn this into another popcorn thread): that quote is not accurate. Technically, Eating Cholov Stam is a Kullah not the other way around...
Depends who you ask according to R' Moshe it's a chumra to not drink it
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2015, 09:52:52 AM
Depends who you ask according to R' Moshe it's a chumra to not drink it
Source? The Tshuvah I saw said it is a Heter Bishas Hadchak...
Title: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 09:59:35 AM
Source? The Tshuvah I saw said it is a Heter Bishas Hadchak...
I didn't read the tshuva but I spoke to many talmidim who told me that he held it's kosher and a Baal nefesh should be machmir and all his grandchildren drink it and even his sons did R' Reuven used to drink it until R' Moshe died because he felt then the level of Baal nefesh went down in the world making him a Baal nefesh therefore he took on the chumra and no one really knows why R' Dovid stopped drinking it
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Emkay on January 22, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
Depends who you ask according to R' Moshe it's a chumra to not drink it
I don't believe that's correct. 
On a side note it's good to see this thread get invigorated again
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2015, 10:02:07 AM
I didn't read the tshuva but I spoke to many talmidim who told me that he held it's kosher and a Baal nefesh should be machmir and all his grandchildren drink it and even his sons did R' Reuven used to drink it until R' Moshe died because he felt then the level of Baal nefesh went down in the world making him a Baal nefesh therefore he took on the chumra and no one really knows why R' Dovid stopped drinking it
::)

This is not the first time I asked you for a source and you reply that you were told by someone...
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 10:03:16 AM
::)

This is not the first time I asked you for a source and you reply that you were told by someone...
Except this time I have the liberty to go into more detail
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Emkay on January 22, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
I didn't read the tshuva but I spoke to many talmidim who told me that he held it's kosher and a Baal nefesh should be machmir and all his grandchildren drink it and even his sons did R' Reuven used to drink it until R' Moshe died because he felt then the level of Baal nefesh went down in the world making him a Baal nefesh therefore he took on the chumra and no one really knows why R' Dovid stopped drinking it
Unreliable as well as bull
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2015, 10:04:15 AM
I can't believe a stupid joke I made was misinterpreted and derailed the whole thread.

If someone wants to argue over the status of Cholov Stam feel free to open a thread about it. This thread is about hats.

NEXT
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: avromie7 on January 22, 2015, 10:05:17 AM
Unreliable as well as bull
Which part of it about his sons I heard straight from r' reuvens daughter as well as others
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: thaber on January 22, 2015, 11:01:17 PM
I was trying to figure out how my comment on hats got moved over to the c'y thread. Mods at work :)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Freddie on January 22, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
Nice to see this topic revived and with such passion, too. Can I take partial credit?  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Boycott the Borsalino price-hike
Post by: doodle on January 23, 2015, 01:53:46 AM
Source? The Tshuvah I saw said it is a Heter Bishas Hadchak...
YOU READ THE WRONG TESHUVA,    in every single teshuva on the subject, he says its allowed and a baal nefesh is machmir , there is only one teshuva otherwise, which you probally saw quoted. Take some time and READ the teshuvos inside. Also every one of His talmidim and sons say so . You have been mislead.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2015, 09:28:37 AM
Nice to see this topic revived and with such passion, too. Can I take partial credit?  ;)
Nope! All the credit for this one goes to avromie7. Even I refuse  (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13629.msg1038841#msg1038841)to take credit for it... :P
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: avromie7 on January 23, 2015, 09:44:31 AM
Nope! All the credit for this one goes to avromie7. Even I refuse  (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13629.msg1038841#msg1038841)to take credit for it...
HT?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Dan on December 05, 2019, 03:21:25 PM
Rubashkin on "OU-D,"

"Aleph is emunah, Beis is bitachon, Gimmel is geula...D is disaster"
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mmgfarb on December 05, 2019, 04:57:40 PM
Rubashkin on "OU-D,"

"Aleph is emunah, Beis is bitachon, Gimmel is geula...D is disaster"
It's wonderful that Rubashkin is now a posek.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: EliJelly on December 06, 2019, 03:58:25 PM
It's wonderful that Rubashkin is now a posek.
It's a good one, no need to be a posek for that.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: incendia on December 07, 2019, 10:35:22 PM
Rubashkin on "OU-D,"

"Aleph is emunah, Beis is bitachon, Gimmel is geula...D is disaster"

I tend not to take advise from convicted fraudsters
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 07, 2019, 11:56:26 PM
I tend not to take advise from convicted fraudsters
Good thing you brought that up, I was just about to throw away my Baskin Robbins mint chocolate chip. I bet it's going to taste much better than the righteous indignation I was going to have to settle for.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: EliJelly on December 08, 2019, 12:04:41 AM
I tend not to take advise from convicted fraudsters
Dislike.
(gotta create such'a button just for this one)
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mmgfarb on December 08, 2019, 10:01:15 AM
I tend not to take advise from convicted fraudsters
What does one have have to do with the other?
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: mmgfarb on December 08, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
It's a good one, no need to be a posek for that.
Missed the point.
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: EliJelly on February 18, 2020, 12:00:34 AM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.msg2200769#msg2200769
Title: Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Post by: yitzgar on February 18, 2020, 12:07:50 AM
Good thing you brought that up, I was just about to throw away my Baskin Robbins mint chocolate chip. I bet it's going to taste much better than the righteous indignation I was going to have to settle for.
Lol