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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 07:22:43 AM

Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 07:22:43 AM
I have no desire to offend anyone with this thread, but it's s/t I've wondered about it, and this is a good place to ask since Chabad is represented very well on DDF. I am honestly looking for answers, and again, am not at all trying to insult anyone.

My Background:
Before I start, I want to discuss my (tangential) history with Chabad. My mother became religious with Chabad when in university and I went to their day camp for a few summers when younger. While on vacation from high school, I would often daven with them during the week since it was pleasant and they had the latest local minyan (8:00am). I had a relationship with the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot (this is in Cleveland). I would also volunteer with a different Chabad that packaged food for Russian immigrants.

When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan, although I would say that I never experienced overt messianism in the US. However, when I was in Venice, I davened in the Chabad there and was taken aback by the chanting after davening as well as other stuff, s/t I hadn't experienced in the US.

The situation:

It's a known phenomenom that since the Lubabitcher Rebbe died, new movements have risen in the Chabad movement that can possible be categorized as follows:
1) He's not dead, but is in hiding and is the Mashiach
2) He did die, but he will come back and is the Mashiach
3) He is an embodiment of God on some level.

Now, #3 seems to be a very very minor movement, and I have heard some claim that the ppl who claim this are just plants trying to make Chabad look bad. However, the other 2, or various forms of them, do appear to have many adherents

As I wrote above, I never saw much in the US of any of these movements, although many of the recent Chabad seforim wouldn't include zt"l (may his memory be for a blessing) after mentioning the Rebbe's name in the beginning. Often, they would write shilta (which is the term used for ppl still living). However, I have seen some disturbing videos of event in 770, such as the following one which shows that these beliefs do exist in the US.


Living in Israel is a much different story. It appears that these beliefs are much stronger here, and that ppl are very open with them. And this is without my being familiar with the yeshiva in Tzfat, which I have heard is a stronghold of these beliefs, including belief #3. On chol hamoed last year, I had a long discussion with a bachur who was trying to convince ppl of these ideas in Chevron. I won't bother sharing some of what he said to me since it may constitute lashon hara, but needless to say, much of it was disturbing.

My questions:
1) Why do you think that these ideas arose amongst Chabad, and not other movements which lost their only Rebbe? Was it b/c of the Rebbe's focus on mashiach coming soon?
2) Are these beliefs widespread in the US as well?
3) Why do you think they are more prevalent and outspoken in Israel than the US?
4) If you are Lubavitch and do not believe in any of these, how do you regard your fellow chasidim that do think this way?
5) What do you think the future holds for these ppl? Will they slowly come back to earth, or will they continue to become more extreme, and perhaps even 'break-off'? Or something in-between?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: bubkiz on February 06, 2012, 08:31:48 AM
Here we go....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmuelb on February 06, 2012, 08:38:38 AM
It is hard to discuss and judge other people, it is possible to analyze your own opinion and express it. I have friends from the whole spectrum and I find that it is a waste of time to discuss certain issues with them so I try to hold myself back and avoid those topics.

Personally, I think you have some good questions. Nothing more to add right now.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: zush12345 on February 06, 2012, 09:00:49 AM
+1,i dont think this topic will be possible to discuss in a respectable way,since the views are so 180 degrees IMO
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 09:28:02 AM
+1,i dont think this topic will be possible to discuss in a respectable way,since the views are so 180 degrees IMO

180 degrees amongst Chabad members, or amongst all frum yidden?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 10:26:13 AM
+1,i dont think this topic will be possible to discuss in a respectable way,since the views are so 180 degrees IMO
if helpme, ashero, and dan can discuss the comparative benefits of mileage cards vs cb cards, anything is possible!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: bubbles on February 06, 2012, 10:34:37 AM
+1,i dont think this topic will be possible to discuss in a respectable way,since the views are so 180 degrees IMO
if helpme, ashero, and dan can discuss the comparative benefits of mileage cards vs cb cards, anything is possible!

 :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 06, 2012, 10:55:24 AM
Try Chabadtalk.com.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: zush12345 on February 06, 2012, 11:00:40 AM
180 degrees amongst Chabad members, or amongst all frum yidden?
all frum yiden
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 11:03:51 AM
Try Chabadtalk.com.

+1 This isn't the venue IMHO.

I think the spectrum is broad with a gradient, both amongt the frum world, and amongst Chabad people. The other thing is that most of the questions you (the OP) ask require a lot of background (setting certain precepts) before you can understand why people believe a certain way.

Another thing I think is an issue is bias, i.e. people on both sides of an issue will see things very differently due to the position they're predisposed toward. This can easily be seen when viewing this thread (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13629) objectively.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 06, 2012, 11:35:00 AM
let me first start off with, that i agree with some others here that since everyones got their own opinion etc..itll be very hard to have a normal conversation, and i also tried having conversations with people that fall into the category you're describing and in my eyes there is no use in trying to convince or even discuss opinions with them because the conversation wont go anywhere at all. (hours conversations i mean!)

i will now quote a few things that maybe i can clarify -and some things i wont discuss because some things ppl may take in the wrong way.

The situation:
It's a known phenomenom that since the Lubabitcher Rebbe died, new movements have risen in the Chabad movement that can possible be categorized as follows:
1) He's not dead, but is in hiding and is the Mashiach
2) He did die, but he will come back and is the Mashiach
3) He is an embodiment of God on some level.

Now, #3 seems to be a very very minor movement, and I have heard some claim that the ppl who claim this are just plants trying to make Chabad look bad. However, the other 2, or various forms of them, do appear to have many adherents
1st things first, there is no 2 Chabad Movements. There is one Chabad Movement. The categories you described can be said as "in the Chabad movement there are diff views/perspectives.

#1 - the only people that believe such a thing are and must be (very) crazy. that is against nature for something like that to be and many many people witnessed a levaya, and especially that the Rebbe's health situatuon in the last 2 years before '94 was grave and did not get any better. - i dont think i need to explain it really but if you believe it then you fall into my category of someone i refuse to discuss this matter with.

#2 - this is a tough matter to discuss, and true that most people (if not everyone that doesnt fall into Categoriy #1) believe this. so here is where the 2 views are: theres Meshichistim (we're not discussing #1 meshichistim) and "anti Meshichistim". the main difference is, if the guy will go around publicizing the paraphrase "yechi..." . He who does publicize yechi, does not believe that the rebbe is physically living, by saying Yechi he is pronouncing that the Rebbe is Moshiach and when he says he shall live forever it means, through his "children"/chassidim doing what he wanted from them and following in his path - it spiritually is making him live forever and there is no difference now that there was a physical concealment. and one should not think that  because he was niftar, that the rebbe is less holy and it wont help to ask brachos etc....(this concept is explained in chassidus in depth and length.) and this guy holds that this is what the Rebbe wanted when he said and made big campaigns that we should publicize the Coming Moshiach and how its so close, that we should tell people that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
The "Anti-meshichist" will will not publicize that the Rebbe is Moshiach (A.K.A Yechi) although he may beleive that in his heart, but that is nothing wrong because everyone can have their own belief that they keep to themselves. On the other hand he doesnt disagree with this that the Rebbe is spiritually living forever and by us doing and learning his torah etc.. keeps him "alive" (like ya'akov avinu lo meis). and he obviously will fulfill the campaign of the Rebbe to tell people Moshiach is near, but not discussing who it is, because that is not the point and it can cause conflict.

#3 - im not sure what u mean by embodiment of G-D. so if you will clarify that i can try to explain it.

Another point on #1, that mainly the people that say this stem from the Yeshiva Gedola in Tzfas. and they are a minority although they do make a very large noise, and they will not ever visit the Rebbe's kever for this reason! so that is off my Map.

Quote
As I wrote above, I never saw much in the US of any of these movements, although many of the recent Chabad seforim wouldn't include zt"l (may his memory be for a blessing) after mentioning the Rebbe's name in the beginning. Often, they would write shilta (which is the term used for ppl still living). However, I have seen some disturbing videos of event in 770, such as the following one which shows that these beliefs do exist in the US.
there are plenty of people in US that practice #2 in both perspectives and regarding #1 those bochurim and few other people mainly come from Tzfas as stated above and they learn or live in Crown Heights becasue the want to be with the Rebbe in his shul!
regarding the Shlit"a , so besides the tzfatim that will obviously write that - so the Meshichistim in #2 will sometimes write that because they dont like to mention the Rebbe passed away because it shows on something less holy and since he's not physically here so people may take the wrong approach at it, so they write Shlit"a
as for the disturbing videos you see, those are tzfatim in #1 mainly, and some Meshichistim in #2 that want to still feel the way it was before '92 and they believe that any minute now the moshiach will come and the Rebbe will walk through the path and they want to be ready for it. but again its mainly #1.

Quote
Living in Israel is a much different story. It appears that these beliefs are much stronger here, and that ppl are very open with them. And this is without my being familiar with the yeshiva in Tzfat, which I have heard is a stronghold of these beliefs, including belief #3. On chol hamoed last year, I had a long discussion with a bachur who was trying to convince ppl of these ideas in Chevron. I won't bother sharing some of what he said to me since it may constitute lashon hara, but needless to say, much of it was disturbing.
True that in israel its much stronger there, and mainly thats because its easier to do it there because everyone is jewish and can understand whats going on. it practically makes no sense to do what they do in manhattan or else where where majority isnt jewish.
and there are many more tzfatim in israel which go crazy and make lound noises.

Quote
My questions:
1) Why do you think that these ideas arose amongst Chabad, and not other movements which lost their only Rebbe? Was it b/c of the Rebbe's focus on mashiach coming soon?
2) Are these beliefs widespread in the US as well?
3) Why do you think they are more prevalent and outspoken in Israel than the US?
4) If you are Lubavitch and do not believe in any of these, how do you regard your fellow chasidim that do think this way?
5) What do you think the future holds for these ppl? Will they slowly come back to earth, or will they continue to become more extreme, and perhaps even 'break-off'? Or something in-between?
1. i think since the Rebbe made a huge campaign about moshiach in the later years and like no other rebbe has done, so it triggered somthing there, and since the Rebbe was so Great in the world  (even in the eyes of other Rebbe's and other chassidim) so it was something very special, and most people thought that since there was so much Moshiach talk etc.. that moshiach was coming then any minute, and couldnt take in the fact, (face the fact) that something like a passing away was possible at that state, and everyone then believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach. so when the passing came about there was a group of people that were dancing and happy because they said forsure moshiach is coming now and from there it spread.

2. Yes but in israel its more publicized

3. i answered that question above

4. i dont want to state my opinion in any of this (i tried to avoid it in this post) for the reason that it will start a major arguement and i dont like to discuss things that have no end to it. here im just stating Facts. - and all i can say is that #1 people have some issues

5. that i dont know and i just hope it doesnt go too much farther, because a lot of this is pushing people away from Chabad for no good reason and a bunch of stupidity.

i hope i clarified the situation for you, even though ive got much more to say but i dont want to discuss.
if you have any questions on this feel free to ask!
 

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: farmerjoe on February 06, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
i must say, that is some post CBS!!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 06, 2012, 02:09:41 PM
cbs, when you say that most believe #2, are you saying the he must be moshiach or that he could be? when speaking to a chabad friend of mine, he told me he believes the rebbe was the most qualified. in his opinion, but was open to the idea that it might be someone else
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 02:21:36 PM
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on February 06, 2012, 02:27:48 PM
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 02:32:53 PM
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
Sorry, but until we're all gathered together in Israel in front of the 3rd Bais Hamikdash I don't think you can positively say someone is mashiach, though I'm sure there are a minority of Lubavitchers that believe that he has to be mashiach.

To which I ask, if someone else gathers us together today in Israel in front of the 3rd Bais Hamikdash would you not accept him because he's not the Rebbe?  I'm sure you would manage just fine and be able to ask Eliyahu and the Rebbe any questions you may have on the matter.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on February 06, 2012, 02:59:41 PM
I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead.

Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 03:04:23 PM
Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?
Tzemach appears to tackle this issue well here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 03:26:59 PM
Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?

I read part of R. Gil Student's sefer on this (he's the creator of the blog formerly known as Hirhurim, and now called Torah Musings). He treats the Rebbe with a lot of respect, but he doesn't think it's possible, although I never finished reading it. It's located here.
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 06, 2012, 03:27:55 PM
Thanks for your detailed response CBS! I'll read through it again when I have more time, and post some follow up questions.
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 06:20:12 PM
My Background:
Before I start, I want to discuss my (tangential) history with Chabad. My mother became religious with Chabad when in university and I went to their day camp for a few summers when younger. While on vacation from high school, I would often daven with them during the week since it was pleasant and they had the latest local minyan (8:00am). I had a relationship with the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot (this is in Cleveland). I would also volunteer with a different Chabad that packaged food for Russian immigrants.

When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan, although I would say that I never experienced overt messianism in the US. However, when I was in Venice, I davened in the Chabad there and was taken aback by the chanting after davening as well as other stuff, s/t I hadn't experienced in the US.
how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.

btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on February 06, 2012, 06:55:52 PM
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 06, 2012, 07:06:39 PM
I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.
Not necessarily does reuvens' rosh yeshiva "hate" lubavitch. I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah... I strongly agree with your suggestion that the conversation should start with sources that moshiach can not be from the dead. I have had this conversation with people a countless amount of times and 99% of the time the person saying chabad is kefirah just say that that is what their rosh yeshiva told them and it is just so obviously the same thing. as christianity. In Judeaism everything starts and ends with what halacha says. Our emotions have no place in dictating the opinion of the torah. This being said from from every Jews birth they are raised to believe that christianity and the idea of Yashka being the messiah is pure evil, in addition through many thousands of false messiahs in our history we have a sort to say automatic rejection of believing in a particular person as being the messiah. This can be found in all parts of the jewish world: reformed, conservative, modern orthodox, litvish etc. Hence when a chasidic group makes a claim that their rebbe is the messiah it is automatically rejected. This way of thought is not necessarily from a bad thing because it saves allot of people from false beliefs. The problem arises when a group has a claim based on halacha it also is rejected with no further research.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 06, 2012, 07:11:17 PM
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 06, 2012, 07:14:02 PM
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
I am sure everyone could benefit from your opinions and answers. Why not post them here? 

I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
Is and could be are practicaly opposites especially in this context.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 07:18:27 PM

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 06, 2012, 07:21:10 PM
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 07:24:48 PM
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?

Now that's just ignorance...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
Now that's just ignorance...
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
i think you get my point but if you want lets start from david and work our way down. im sure we can find someone greater/earlier
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 07:34:40 PM
I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah...
You're right.
I probably should've been more sensitive. It was an emotional response to his (rosh kolel's?) attack against lubavitch and the shluchim through whom his "mother became religious with Chabad" and "the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot".

(That being said I still stand by what I said and I still believe it to be true.)

Oh, and while I can see that it might not paint me in the best light, I fail to see how it will  "do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah..."
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 07:38:21 PM
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach?
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 07:42:31 PM
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.
i didnt call anybody anything im just trying to understand the logic of it. i never heard that a dead person could be mashiach but if its true- why the rebbe, even for a lubavitcher. he was not the greatest person to ever live. (i am not saying he was not a great person)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: bubbles on February 06, 2012, 07:42:42 PM
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.

I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chadssidish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 07:49:22 PM
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...

I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 08:02:01 PM
I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chaddish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
I have no problem with your question.
If you want the "simple" answer:
I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 08:04:28 PM
I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 08:15:15 PM
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?

I advise you to study first, then ask questions.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 06, 2012, 08:21:52 PM
while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 06, 2012, 08:23:54 PM
I advise you to study first, then ask questions.

I always had the same question.

It would be nice to get an answer.

Without all the studies though.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 08:29:27 PM
As Dan said:
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship
I hope this doesn't sound too condescending but I'm afraid if you're not a chossid you probably wont "get it"...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 06, 2012, 08:34:26 PM
As Dan said:I hope this doesn't sound too condescending but I'm afraid if you're not a chossid you probably wont "get it"...

I was hoping on a better answer, but if this is what it is, well so be it....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 06, 2012, 08:35:34 PM
why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach and based on age i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship so he definintely doesnt know what that is witch is a tragic outcome of this nonesense that they never appointed another rebbe
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 08:36:18 PM
I always had the same question.

It would be nice to get an answer.

Without all the studies though.

What is moshiach is beyond the scope of this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 06, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 08:49:22 PM
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.

I'm Chabad, and I have the same questions as you.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 06, 2012, 08:55:26 PM
I guess its not that of stupid question after all.

How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 09:00:08 PM
@ ashero: don't want to know what exactly is moshiach.

Rather as asked before, why not just want him to come.

When he comes, he could be someone from previous generations, no? Such as the baal hatanya or so?

Why so specifically this rebbe.
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing
"embarassed by the whole moshiach thing"
Give me a break.  The whole purpose of the Chabad movement today is to bring the Rebbe's vision to fruition which is to bring on the revelation of mashiach.

"sort of led them on"
Something leads me to believe you would never dare disrespect a litvisher gadol.

"and now it has become more of a cult"
The only cult are the nutty aforementioned tzfatim who dance around 770 and Israel all day as that's more exciting to them than actually learning torah or putting tefilin on people as the Rebbe would have told them to do and stop wasting their time. 
Calling chabad a cult shows on your own ignorance, hate, and indoctrinated bias.

"i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship"
Speak for yourself please.  Through doing what the Rebbe wanted his chassidim to do and learning your Rebbe's chassidus you can have a stronger relationship than someone who went to every single farbrengen, and those who went to every single farbrengen and sees bochurim in yeshiva today will often say the same thing.

"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.

Personally, again, I don't care who is mashiach.  And 99.9% of lubavitchers out there just want mashiach to come regardless of who it is
.
But to call the belief that the Rebbe could be mashiach a cult or avodah zarah is quite frankly ignorant and is probably said by the same type of people who cursed Chabad out for creating the kiruv movement before deciding to pretend that they in fact came up with the very idea.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 06, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
I guess its not that of stupid question after all.

How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.

It's not a stupid question, but the solution you propose isn't a silver bullet either (though some would say that's exactly what already happened in Lubavitch, not that I agree). Dan's last post (not just the part that he responded to you) helps explain why it isn't the best solution.

@asd, your comments are extremely distasteful and disrespectful. The OP is looking to have a discussion, if you want to spew venom and vitriol please start your own thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 06, 2012, 09:08:41 PM
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
"embarassed by the whole moshiach thing"
Give me a break.  The whole purpose of the Chabad movement today is to bring the Rebbe's vision to fruition which is to bring on the revelation of mashiach.

"sort of led them on"
Something leads me to believe you would never dare disrespect a litvisher gadol.

"and now it has become more of a cult"
The only cult are the nutty aforementioned tzfatim who dance around 770 and Israel all day as that's more exciting to them than actually learning torah or putting tefilin on people as the Rebbe would have told them to do and stop wasting their time. 
Calling chabad a cult shows on your own ignorance, hate, and indoctrinated bias.

"i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship"
Speak for yourself please.  Through doing what the Rebbe wanted his chassidim to do and learning your Rebbe's chassidus you can have a stronger relationship than someone who went to every single farbrengen, and those who went to every single farbrengen and sees bochurim in yeshiva today will often say the same thing.

"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.

Personally, again, I don't care who is mashiach.  And 99.9% of lubavitchers out there just want mashiach to come regardless of who it is
.
But to call the belief that the Rebbe could be mashiach a cult or avodah zarah is quite frankly ignorant and is probably said by the same type of people who cursed Chabad out for creating the kiruv movement before deciding to pretend that they in fact came up with the very idea.
I am loving the passion but as whYME suggested before can we please just keep to answering halachic questions. If anyone in this thread actually wants to accomplish anything let us have an orderly discussion of weather chabad is going against halacha or not. That is really the only thing that matters. Either its wrong or not because if its not wrong then to ask someone to justify a personal feeling that is inline with halacha is pointless and silly IMO.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on February 06, 2012, 09:42:47 PM
I was hoping on a better answer, but if this is what it is, well so be it....

I thought you were an honorary chabadnik
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 06, 2012, 09:48:23 PM
I thought you were an honorary chabadnik
He was thinking of getting a membership, but ditched the idea when Dan forgot to bring the signup papers to the DO last April ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 06, 2012, 10:09:37 PM
cbs, when you say that most believe #2, are you saying the he must be moshiach or that he could be? when speaking to a chabad friend of mine, he told me he believes the rebbe was the most qualified. in his opinion, but was open to the idea that it might be someone else
i meant that Lubavitchers say he is for the reason that is being stated around here, that A. he's our Rebbe and we (as in this generation) had/have a very special connection which is hard to be explained if someone is not Lubavitch (even though i can try to explain but some will take it in the wrong way, so therefore i wont.) and B. in our eyes he fits the category the best. - but i dont want to discuss this either like AsherO said that "What is Moshiach is beyond this thread" and i dont want to get into the discussion of who is Moshiach etc..because thats not the point and it will never end either (no offense but its a fact, if you're not Lubavitch you wont agree with any reason i give for the Rebbe being Moshiach)
The point of my Post was to clarify the situation for the OP that he should get a clearer picture of the "politics" that are in Chabad these days, and shouldnt take it in a wrong way, because as Dan said that many Chabad houses that do say Yechi etc... turns people down from chabad - even though it may bring some people closer but those people only know of Chabad as "the rebbe is Moshiach" and thats it (because thats all they're taught)
i personally have a few stories of different people that when i wanted to put Teffilin on them they started cursing out Chabad and giving all sorts of names because they got turned away from the Meshichistim. so i dont want the OP to think that way, so i try clarifying it.

He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
your post is exactly what we all need to start a massive argument - i think if you have an opinion on the "Situation" - NOT who is Moshiach - than please share otherwise it's useless to say what you said cuz it sounds as if you're trying to convince people here that and someone that doesnt believe it wont get convinced - since to believe such a thing you have to come to it on your own by having a connection to the Rebbe etc... any Jo-shmo in the street wont get it.

Thanks for your detailed response CBS! I'll read through it again when I have more time, and post some follow up questions.
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss.
Anytime, as long as we're all friends! (especially since you helped pack russian food at tzemach tzdek on Lee rd. ;) )

Not necessarily does reuvens' rosh yeshiva "hate" lubavitch. I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah...
i personally will have to disagree with you on that. it sounds to me that he has some sort of hate or bad eye towards Chabad in general and i know more than a few people that went to learn in yeshivos in israel and came out disliking chabad specifically because their rav told them they shouldnt go there and some even say they cursed out Chabad.
i never understood those Rabbis and i think its 100% wrong what they are doing (not because im Chabad) but because its another jew and just because he disagrees (or jealous) with some things Chabad says it doesnt mean chabad is bad people!

while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing
Can you please elaborate on what you said? what do you mean that they feel embarrassed...? like what did they beleive exactly b4 that is diff now? do u mean they said Yechi b4 but now they will never?
Every Chabad Chossid between '92 and '94 said Yechi - becuase the rebbe wasnt feeling well and as i stated in previous posts that they all believed that he is Moshiach.

why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach and based on age i dont think dan ever had a rebbe chossid relationship so he definintely doesnt know what that is witch is a tragic outcome of this nonesense that they never appointed another rebbe
i may be wrong here, but i think that the connection with the Chassidim to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and how people looked (and respected) him, was and still is, totally different than other chassidim to their Rebbes. and you may say that since im Chabad im saying this, but not true. if you look at many other Chassidim and even other rebbes - forget frum people even non religious people (incl. many prime ministers of israel) Respected the Rebbe in such a way that no other Rebbe had.
never mind that you wont find a Chabad chossid ask a bracha from a diff rebbe, but you forsure do see many and i mean many other chassidim that asked and still ask brachos from the Lubavitcher rebbe!
so there is something there.....

and as for what u say about that "dan never HAD a relationship..." - here is where you misunderstood MAJORLY.
After '94 the connection between the Chassidim didnt lessen any more. just because there is a physical concealment it doesnt mean anything else is different. and if you would learn Chassidus (especially תורת מנחם חלק א) you will see how the rebbe discusses the Connection to a rebbe after his Passing - he was referring to the previous Rebbe.
and besides what do u know about Dan's hiskashrus?!

EDIT: i bolded the part i fgt to mention. which makes you sound pretty absurd when saying such a thing! the reason you say this, is because you dont know who the Lubavitcher rebbe is/was. and if you would only know, then you would understand why noone was appointed a new Rebbe because there is noone in the world now that can qualify and be at the same standard as the Lubavitcher Rebbe (no offense to any other Rebbe). and in general all the Chabad rebbeim were all from one house (beis harav) and just to point out that the rebbe had no kids either.

Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
+100

Quote from: Dan
"why dont any other chassidim think their rebbe is moshiach"
They do, that's the very nature of a rebbe-chosid relationship, whether they choose to publicize it or not.
im not so sure that they do.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SGF on February 06, 2012, 10:11:37 PM
How about, we start a new fraction of chabad, which just wants moshiach to come, whoever it maybe.
i hope everybody wants moshiach to come not only lubavitchers
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Mocha on February 06, 2012, 10:18:54 PM
i hope everybody wants moshiach to come not only lubavitchers
Then we can have one big DO  ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 10:38:02 PM
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.

thats only a reason why you would want him to be mashiach. but earlier generations were much greater than him. so why assume that he is the mashiach and treat him as such. i find that to be very insulting to previous generations
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 10:43:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming anything or that anyone is mashiach.  But the concept of mashaich is that he is the nasi of that particular generation.  As Chabad chassidim we believe the Rebbe to the be nasi of our generation.

I'll be more than happy with whomever mashiach is.  Frankly it doesn't really matter to me who he is.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming anything or that anyone is mashiach.  But the concept of mashaich is that he is the nasi of that particular generation.  As Chabad chassidim we believe the Rebbe to the be nasi of our generation.

I'll be more than happy with whomever mashiach is.  Frankly it doesn't really matter to me who he is.
ok but what is considered that generation. after all he was niftar
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 10:52:18 PM
ok but what is considered that generation. after all he was niftar
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 06, 2012, 10:55:13 PM
im sorry for touching a raw nerve but chabad prides itself for being openminded and you should see the oppinion that the majority of torah jews hold so may i ask why on the topic that is the core of chabad are you so closeminded  have you ever serieously considered the logic of those who disagree whith you and if you did i will respect that as you guys (i mean the main contributors to this site and for that i thank you)are clearly very intelligent.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 06, 2012, 11:04:26 PM
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
a valid answer
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 11:06:24 PM
im sorry for touching a raw nerve but chabad prides itself for being openminded and you should see the oppinion that the majority of torah jews hold so may i ask why on the topic that is the core of chabad are you so closeminded  have you ever serieously considered the logic of those who disagree whith you and if you did i will respect that as you guys (i mean the main contributors to this site and for that i thank you)are clearly very intelligent.

The only one being close-minded here is you.

What do you want me to say?  That the Rabbe can't possibly be mashiach? That Rav, the Rashbi, the Midrash/B"R, the Sdei Chemed, and the Abarbenel among many others were heretical and modern anti-chabad spewing rabbis know better. 

Or should Chabad have stopped being makarev yidden and putting tefilin on yidden back in the 50's because at the time most torah jews were aghast at doing so and denouncing it?  Never mind that they all came around after to claim they themselves started the movement.

Or should Chasidism itself have admitted to being wrong back from the times of the Baal Shem Tov and onward when misnagdim were ready to physically harm, mosar to the government, and even kill chassidim, lest their ways teach all jews to be "heretical?"

This is nothing but a long standing tradition of anti-chasidic/chabad rhetoric that has been around for hundreds of years and has no basis in halacha.

We're going in circles here.  Nobody is going to convince anybody out of what they believe. I don't think I have much else to add to this subject.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 06, 2012, 11:10:24 PM
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 06, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
of course he has. Hence quoting many famous jewish authorities who's view is inline with the chabad belief. The question is if you have done research or your blindly following your feelings. (not to mention this is no where in the vicinity of core chabad beliefs. You are clearly the misinformed one here)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: arie on February 06, 2012, 11:20:17 PM
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
He has no obligation to 'seriously consider' other shita's. Chabad has beed been around for some time already and had great men in charge. As long as he is following his tradition that he was brought up in and he is following the Shulchan Aruch, he doesn't have to seriously consider anything else, the same way you dont have to seriously consider becoming a Satmar, Belz Chosid, or a Mizrachi.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 06, 2012, 11:23:15 PM
there has never been in history a movement like chabbad i dont have to research i have history and mesorah on my side you are treading on dangerous waters it is your obligation to be certian you arent being brainwashed
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 06, 2012, 11:23:28 PM
For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.

(http://s18.postimage.org/j5n0f4i3d/Rav_Hirshprung_Letter.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
gif image hosting (http://postimage.org/)


Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 06, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
asd your posts remind me of this:
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/313446_283441171674880_139729956046003_1145276_1904670577_n.jpg)
(in other words if you add some punctuation I might understand what you're saying)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 11:35:01 PM
jewda, that's the most vile and hateful link I've ever seen posted on DDF, and frankly it deserves an apology.

If we can't have this conversation with respect and ahavas yisroel I will lock this up for good and add it to the banned topics list.  As for me I believe I've already said all I need to say and have nothing further to add other than everyone will believe exactly what they have already been programmed to believe.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 06, 2012, 11:41:32 PM
There was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...
One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 06, 2012, 11:50:32 PM
you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
do u ever consider other worldly cultures and ways of life? no? why not?
my point is that you were brought up a certain way and Chabad was brought up a certain way. to say that someone else should consider your way is like - halevai a christian saying you should consider the way of J - (not exactly but you get my point)
and i never try convincing anyone that they should become Chabad in way shape or form. i think bottom line is that its the way you were brought up, and no-one can get convinced otherwise unless they're searching for something else. so no use in arguing about this anymore. it is what it is.
and btw i edited my previous big post so because i forgot to mention something u said - look for the caps edit

as for Jewda: i see now that dan posted but i wanted to say the exact same thing, and just let you now that out off all the curses the Rebbe got in public etc... the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107). and for someone - especially a big guy like him that has many followers - to say such a thing in public against another jew, especially a big Rebbe that is world renowned and respected by majority of the world, i call such a person a Rashah. especially when he considered himself a big gadol.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on February 06, 2012, 11:59:58 PM
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 07, 2012, 12:02:11 AM
btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...

One memory worth posting.

I was in Ohr Elchonon some 11 years ago when Immanuel's brother "The Rosh" (who is also a massive anti-mishichist) cursed out his brother in a speech for writing that the belief the mashiach can come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm or orthodox judaism, when in fact that belief has more than enough valid sources to be considered normative orthodox judaism.


I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 12:03:16 AM
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 12:03:30 AM
+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.
Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 12:06:31 AM
the abilty to be is something all frum yidden believe about all gedolim
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 12:06:43 AM
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.
Not even remotely comparable.  You are further displaying your ignorance.
The problem with shabsai tzvi and his followers who violated mitzvahs and ate on tisha b'av for example is the same problem we have with yashka as is tackled by R' Schochet:

"7. Rabbi Keller identifies the Messianists' belief that the resurrected
   Rebbe will be Moshiach with, lehavdil, Christianity.  This obscene analogy
   merely displays ignorance of both Judaism and, lehavdil, Christianity.

   Unlike the Meshichists, Christians (as well as the Sabbateans) believe
   that their savior was already the Messiah in actu, and that the Messianic
   redemption is already an established fact, though yet to move to a new
   stage with the "second coming." This is not a matter of semantics but
   fraught with practical implications: that belief caused them to abrogate
   Torah and mitzvot (even as the Sabbateans, too, changed Halachah because
   of their belief).

   There is not a single case of any Meshichists abrogating or changing a
   single mitzvah or aspect of Halachah! In fact, they continuously urge
   greater and more punctilious observance of Torah and mitzvot to hasten
   the redemption.

   More specifically: is it possible for a resurrected tzadik to be
   Moshiach? According to Sanhedrin 98b most definitely yes! Is that view
   "normative Judaism"? It is certainly not the normative Jewish perception
   of Moshiach throughout the ages. By the same token, however, it does
   not violate normative Judaism or valid Halachah one iota. The Almighty
   can appoint anyone He chooses to be Moshiach, whether he be - to use the
   Gemara's expression - "of the living or of the (presently) dead".

   Indeed, the Meshichists are not even original. Aside of the Gemara and
   the authorities that quote it (e.g., Abarbanel), no less an authority
   than R. Menachem Nachum of Czernobyl (author of Me'or Einayim) stated
   his conviction that the resurre cted Baal Shem Tov will be Moshiach
   (see Sefer Baal Shem Tov, Me'irat Einayim, par. 23).

   The Meshichists can and must be criticized for converting a (legitimate)
   personal belief and conviction into a categorical imperative. There is
   no objective proof that their perception of tzadik hador or nassi hador
   supersedes different perceptions by others. Their public claims and
   activities, therefore, are a harmful aberration and arrogant triumphalism."
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 12:10:46 AM
were the gedolim who called out shabtai tzvi also reshoim if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to state so publicly.
please quote who you're talking to since there is a lot of discussions going on at once.

shabtai tzvi gave false prophecies and claimed himself as Moshiach
are you comparing shabtai tzvi to the Lubavitcher Rebbe?!

i'm sorry now i think you are just spitting things out which makes no sense (not that youre other posts were diff) to back up someone who cursed out chabad

EDIT: woops dan i just saw your post! no red warning sign came up
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 12:11:54 AM
like i heard from a big posek almost any shittah you will find somewhere in the all incompasing torah that is why real mesorah is so greatly important
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: bestwatchman on February 07, 2012, 12:12:14 AM
(especially since you helped pack russian food at tzemach tzdek on Lee rd. ;) )


I believe you meant zemach zedek :) http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18516&alias=farbrengen-guest-rebbetzin-kazen
 (http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18516&alias=farbrengen-guest-rebbetzin-kazen)

you didnt answer the question have you seriously  considered the shita orf the majority of the frum world or not ?
Would you be willing to share with us what that shita is?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 12:14:33 AM
back to my point if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to publicize it the comparison wasnt essentail for the argument
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 12:14:49 AM
i call such a person a Rashah.
He was the gadol hador. Ki dvar hashem bazah. I'm mocheh. You were michalel shem shamayim brabim.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 12:15:43 AM

I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07 (http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07)


Yes, that's the one I'm talking about.
Thank You!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 12:37:24 AM
like i heard from a big posek almost any shittah you will find somewhere in the all incompasing torah that is why real mesorah is so greatly important
The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5323/img20120207010201.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/403/img20120207010201.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: zush12345 on February 07, 2012, 12:42:08 AM
back and forth back and forth....i can show you letters from gedolei hadar against chabad,and then you have others the other way,this will go in circles and circles with no ending.because a topic can only be discussed if the parties are interested in changing their opinion.but here,the interest is winning the argument.so i would suggest to shut down this thread,dan,whats the point of this.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 12:42:19 AM
Please I am begging every person with accusations against chabad as kofarim to read all the sources quoted here. This is not even all encompassing but should be sufficient until people actually look up these sources. http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/07.htm The Sequence Of Events

Describing the advent of Mashiach, Rambam writes:[202] "If a king will arise from the House of David who, like David his ancestor, delves deeply into the study of the Torah and observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written law and the Oral law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach. If he succeeds in the above, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach."
We see from this ruling that Rambam holds that the Ingathering of the Exiles will follow the building of the Third Temple. This view is based on the verse,[203] "G-d builds Jerusalem, He gathers together the outcasts of Israel," and is supported by numerous Talmudic and Midrashic sources.[204]

Continuing this theme, the Zohar[205] quotes the verse in Tehillim that follows the above verse,[206] "He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds," and writes that the Resurrection will take place forty years[207] after the Ingathering of the Exiles.

The order of events will thus be as follows:

The arrival of Mashiach.
The rebuilding[208] of the Beis HaMikdash.
The Ingathering of the Exiles.
Forty years later,[209] the Resurrection.[210]
According to one view, the Resurrection will take place in the month of Nissan.[211]
Early Resurrection

There is an opinion that certain righteous individuals will be resurrected at the outset with the arrival of Mashiach.[212] As a reward for their lifelong divine service, they will thus be privileged to participate in the universal rejoicing that will accompany his arrival, and to witness the rebuilding of the Beis HaMikdash.
Similarly, there is an opinion that Moshe Rabbeinu and Aharon and his sons will be resurrected before Mashiach comes, so that they will be able to instruct the people as they did at the time of the Exodus.[213]

A related question: Can Mashiach himself be resurrected from the dead or does he have to be a man now alive?

Rambam[214] describes the revelation of Mashiach as a gradual process in the course of which a righteous and learned leader of his generation will fight the wars of G-d, become a potential Mashiach, and then go on to build the Beis HaMikdash and gather in the exiles.

However, there are indications that Mashiach could possibly be a righteous individual who has already lived and died and will then be resurrected as Mashiach.[215] Discussing the personality of Mashiach, the Sages state:[216] "If he is one of the living, then an example would be Rabbeinu HaKadosh [i.e., R. Yehudah HaNasi]; if he is someone from among the dead, then he is someone like Daniel."[217] Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho,[218] clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected. In his encyclopedic work entitled Sdei Chemed,[219] R. Chizkiyah Medini states that if Israel is exceedingly meritorious, Mashiach will be resurrected from the dead in a miraculous manner.

     
Notes:

(Back to text) Tehillim 147:2.
(Back to text) Hilchos Melachim 11:4. Considering the elaborate length of his Discourse on the Resurrection, it is interesting to note that Rambam does not even mention this subject in his Mishneh Torah. A number of commentaries explain this by observing that the function of this work is to codify applicable Halachah; it does not discuss future events outside this context. Hence it does discuss the coming of Eliyahu HaNavi and Mashiach, for these have applicable halachic ramifications, as is documented in the commentaries.
(Back to text) Tehillim 147:2.
(Back to text) Berachos 49a; Midrash Tanchuma, Parshas Noach, sec. 11 (and see the commentary of Etz Yosef there). For full documentation, see Igros Kodesh (Letters) of R. Sholom Ber Schneersohn of Lubavitch (the Rebbe Rashab), Vol. I, p. 309.
(Back to text) I, 139a; see also p. 134a.
(Back to text) Tehillim 147:3.
(Back to text) The Zohar draws a mystical analogy between this interval of 40 years and the 40 years of Yitzchak's age at marriage and the 40 years' sojourn in the wilderness. According to Sanhedrin 99a likewise, the Messianic era will last for 40 years. Commenting on this passage, Chiddushei HaRan cites the view that the Resurrection will take place 40 years after the arrival of Mashiach, and also cites variant opinions of 70 and 400 years.
(Back to text) According to many sources, it appears that G-d Himself will build the Third Beis HaMikdash (rather than Mashiach, as in the passage from Rambam which opened this chapter). It has been suggested, therefore, that the actual edifice will be restored by G-d, but its gates will be restored by Mashiach. For a full discussion of this point, see Chiddushim U'Biurim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on Hilchos Beis HaBechirah, sec. 19; and in English, Seek Out the Welfare of Jerusalem (by R. Eliyahu Touger; Sichos In English, N.Y., 1994), p. 145ff.
(Back to text) Cf. Tzror HaMor on Shir HaShirim 8:12, citing Ramban.
(Back to text) Rambam's apparent conception of two distinct periods within the Messianic era - an initial period conducted according to the natural order followed by a supernatural state of being - is discussed in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XIV, p. 417. (See also footnote 56 there regarding the view of Ramban.) This discussion appears in English in I Await His Coming Every Day (Kehot, N.Y., 1991), p. 51ff.
The Rebbe often quotes the Zohar to the effect that the Resurrection will take place 40 years after the advent of Mashiach. (See Igros Kodesh, Vol. II, p. 75; Sefer HaSichos 5752, Vol. I, p. 274. However, there are also other references in the sichos (e.g., Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XXVII, p. 206; Sefer HaSichos 5733, Shabbos Parshas Balak, footnote 3) - that if Israel merits it, Resurrection will take place earlier. (See Yeshuos Meshicho by Abarbanel, Iyun 1, ch. 3; Maayanei HaYeshuah, Tamar 2, Maayan 1; Netzach Yisrael by the Maharal, ch. 45.) The fact that Rambam does not mention the Resurrection in Mishneh Torah (see footnote 202 above) also suggests that in his opinion the Resurrection will take place at some time after the Ingathering of the Exiles.

However, there are opinions that the Resurrection will take place before the advent of Mashiach. (See the commentary of Yfei Anaf on Midrash Eichah 1:51; Likkutei Sichos, Parshas Vayechi 5751, footnote 6, quoted also in Shaarei Geulah, Vol. II, p. 57; Taamei HaMinhagim, p. 470; Maasei Tuvia (by R. Tuvia the Physician); Olam HaElyon, end of sec. 47.) The Halachah, however, does not follow this opinion, since where there is a difference of opinion in the Talmud, the Zohar decides the Halachah (see Sefer HaMaamarim 5709, p. 184; Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XXIII, p. 102) and in this case the Zohar is clear in that Resurrection will follow the advent of Mashiach by 40 years.

(Back to text) Tur, Orach Chaim, sec. 490, quotes Rav Hai Gaon in the name of the Talmudic Sages; see the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 490:16. According to Rav Hai Gaon, the Resurrection will take place before the rebuilding of the Beis HaMikdash. (See Otzar HaMidrashim, Vol. II, p. 388.)
(Back to text) See Zohar I, 140a; Chiddushei Ritva on Rosh HaShanah 16b; Responsa of Radvaz, Vol. III, sections 1069, 644; Migdal David, p. 83a; Biurei HaZohar of the Tzemach Tzedek, p. 134. See also Sichos Kodesh 5710 (Kehot), p. 100, and Likkutei Sichos, Vol. II, p. 518.
Even according to this opinion the Resurrection of the righteous will take place in the Land of Israel, and those buried in the Diaspora will be conveyed there by means of underground conduits (cf. ch. 7 below). See at length in Emunas HaTechiyah, ch. 5. In Sichos Kodesh 5714, Yud Shvat, the Rebbe speaks of how the Ohel partakes of the holiness of Eretz Yisrael since it will be connected with these conduits.

(Back to text) See Aruch LaNer on Niddah 61b; Tosafos on Pesachim 114b; Yoma 5b; Ikkarim 4:35. Midrash Rabbah, at the end of Parshas Eikev, states that Moshe Rabbeinu will come together with Eliyahu HaNavi (the Prophet Elijah). Elsewhere, in Parshas Vaes'chanan 2:10, the Midrash states that Moshe was buried in the desert together with his people so that upon Resurrection he will lead them all to the Land. Combining these two Midrashim, it would seem that Moshe together with his whole generation will be resurrected and will appear with Eliyahu upon the arrival of Mashiach. (This opinion is cited in the Responsa entitled Lev Chaim, Vol. I, p. 32.) In Hilchos Melachim 12:2, Rambam notes that there is no uniform view as to exactly when in the Messianic process Eliyahu will arrive.
(Back to text) Hilchos Melachim 11:4.
(Back to text) On this sequence as described by Rambam, see the handwritten gloss added by the Rebbe to the printed draft of a sichah delivered on Shabbos Parshas Tazria-Metzora, 6 Iyar, 5751 [1991], footnote 45. It is reproduced in Kuntreis Tzaddik LaMelech, Vol. VI, p. 210.
(Back to text) Sanhedrin 98b.
(Back to text) Note Rashi's two explanations of this passage, and the comment of Ben Yehoyada. See also Midrash Eichah Rabbah 1:51 - "If Mashiach is among the living his name is David; if he is among the dead his name is David" - and the comment of Yfei Anaf there. See also: Shaarei Geulah, Vol. II, p. 57, footnote 6; article entitled "Everlasting Life" by Rabbi N. Davidson, in Beis Moshiach, No. 49, p. 34.
(Back to text) P. 104.
(Back to text) Pe'as HaSadeh, Maareches Alef, footnote 70. See also Or HaChaim, Parshas Balak, on the verse (Bamidbar 24:17), "A star shall shoot forth from Yaakov": "If Israel are found worthy, Mashiach will be revealed from heaven." See also: Zohar I, 203b; Arba Meios Shekel Kessef (by R. Chaim Vital), p. 68; Shaar HaGilgulim, ch. 13; Meorei Tzion, ch. 97; Biurei Zohar by the Alter Rebbe, p. 106b; Biurei Zohar by the Tzemach Tzedek and Yahel Or of the Tzemach Tzedek on Tehillim 82; Or HaChamah on Zohar I, 7b, and I, 212a. Note the closing phrase ("and he will redeem us") of the first maamar of the Rebbe (entitled Basi LeGani 5711 [1951]), translated by Sichos In English in Basi LeGani: Chassidic Discourses (Kehot, N.Y., 1990), p. 103.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 12:44:12 AM
I believe you meant zemach zedek :) http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18516&alias=farbrengen-guest-rebbetzin-kazen
 (http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18516&alias=farbrengen-guest-rebbetzin-kazen)
thats what i meant, just spelled it wrong . and if your looking for a mashpia to farbreng she's your best bet! lol

back to my point if thats what he believed his chiyuv was to publicize it the comparison wasnt essentail for the argument
that comparison was a little out of line of the argument, but in any case im not up for argument on this matter so i will stop right here. (not because i have nothing to say, but because it wont end with you and you will just make a bigger fool out of yourself and im sure you dont want that.)

He was the gadol hador. Ki dvar hashem bazah. I'm mocheh. You were michalel shem shamayim brabim.
since when does a gadol hador say such a thing about such a person?! its never heard of!
i was Michalel shem shamayim??? HE was Michalel Shem Shamayim!
 and someone that is michalel shem shamyaim in public like that, i dont hold of him as any significance, especially when he curses out your own rebbe then you take it more personal so thats why i said rasha. (i didnt mean to offend you though)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: arie on February 07, 2012, 12:47:47 AM
I always wondered in what way is this  machlokes different than the machlokes between R Yaakov Emden And R Yonasan Eibshitz. There too there were accusations of apikorusus etc.  but at the end the accusations were wrong and everyone was b'shalom. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 07, 2012, 12:53:12 AM
Thanks for your detailed response CBS! I'll read through it again when I have more time, and post some follow up questions.
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss.

You may also want to have a look at Attack on Lubavitch – A Response (http://www.jewishinfo.org/attack.htm) by Chaim Dlafin, which explains many of the issues you're wondering about.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 12:54:30 AM
.so i would suggest to shut down this thread,dan,whats the point of this.
+100000000. I beleive it will only cause sinas chinam, bizuy chachamim, and chilul hashem. Dan please shut it down, please!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 12:56:06 AM
(http://www.dansdeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/img20120207005234.jpg)

.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 01:01:18 AM
you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 01:06:16 AM
you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)
Pritzus Fighter, is that you?
I haven't "thought about this subject" for years until it was posted today and how can anyone even argue with someone when they reject numerous valid torah sources dating back to the midrash and talmud bavli through today as "being able to find any shitah in torah"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 01:07:42 AM
+100000000. I beleive it will only cause sinas chinam, bizuy chachamim, and chilul hashem. Dan please shut it down, please!
Yikes! touched a raw nerve there..

i think by leaving this thread open for discussion may give some people a clearer picture. and only people that have serious questions and are not out to bash other people should post. my posts are not meant to embarrass or insult any one of you. if anything i said is "in the sharp category" it was a reply to what someone posted to try to bash - which im trying to clarify.

on the other hand closing this thread may be of help for some desperate people which cant face certain facts of life!

you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)
i dont know who you hang around but i and most people i know dont discuss this topic all day and dont really ever give it too much thought, it was brought up here on DDF so its being discussed. - i dont think there is an argument here either, so besides you no-ones trying to win anything. so i guess you won your own game!!  :P

and sometimes its good to think about some things without letting it go through your mind "in passing" cuz otherwise people will start sounding ignorant and clueless of what they're talking about  - and i quote "we just think about it in passing"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 01:08:08 AM
you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)
I actually find it amazing that Jews claim to have so many brilliant scholars yet they still have not been able to disprove Christianity.   :o
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 01:10:11 AM
Rav shach was a yachid. yes the only one we follow
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: arie on February 07, 2012, 01:11:32 AM
I actually find it amazing that Jews claim to have so many brilliant scholars yet they still have not been able to disprove Christianity.   :o
Thats because they don't need to. They learned the rule of Hamotzie Meichaveiro alav Haraya
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 01:13:41 AM
Thats because they don't need to. They learned the rule of Hamotzie Meichaveiro alav Haraya
Exactly. viday lemavin.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 01:28:58 AM
I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 

I didn't realize you (and your other family members we know) are such baalei yichus :P

I actually find it amazing that Jews claim to have so many brilliant scholars yet they still have not been able to disprove Christianity.   :o

For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 07, 2012, 01:32:00 AM
This thread seems to lead nowhere.

@ avid: I found a link to apply for chabad online, and was rejected...

They also want a ssn ??!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 01:38:14 AM
For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira.
I assume you are agreeing with my line of logic?

This thread seems to lead nowhere.

@ avid: I found a link to apply for chabad online, and was rejected...

They also want a ssn ??!
Seems that way.
LOL!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 01:40:24 AM
I assume you are agreeing with my line of logic?

What exactly am I agreeing to?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 01:44:35 AM
I didn't realize you (and your other family members we know) are such baalei yichus :P
+1. thats big news to me 2 ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 01:46:53 AM
you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)
when a dog barks and you don't answer does that mean you can't win the argument?

You need to provide some argument of substance if you want to say we can't win the argument.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 02:03:17 AM
What exactly am I agreeing to?
"you know what is amazing chabbad chassidim spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about this topic and we just think about it in passing and they still cant win the argument (but their p.r. is like a fortune 500 company)"
I actually find it amazing that Jews claim to have so many brilliant scholars yet they still have not been able to disprove Christianity.   
Meaning that the argument never started when arguing with a blind opponent. Assuming that was what you were referring to when you said "For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira." In other words the argument is futile? correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: aussiebochur on February 07, 2012, 02:31:34 AM
This thread seems to lead nowhere.

@ avid: I found a link to apply for chabad online, and was rejected...

They also want a ssn ??!
Error message was probably more like, "Try again during sefirah". ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 07, 2012, 03:02:56 AM
@ozi: like there is: what's first the chicken or the egg, there is: what was first, chabad or the beard...

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 07, 2012, 03:48:18 AM
@SF, I have a form you fill out that should get you elite status, but be warned, these can't be faked so it won't be easy. You gotta actualy do the challange.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: dirah on February 07, 2012, 03:51:58 AM
SUMMARY:
With regards to those who attack Meshichist beliefs of Chabad as CLEARLY heretical and outside the pale of Yiddishkeit; when they are asked to provide sources to support their incendiary claims, they can't point to anything conclusive in Gemoro, Rishonim or Achronim.
They rely on "what rabbi so-and-so told me".
When the defendants are asked for sources, they have many conclusive ones.
This thread might go on and on and on, but one thing I assure you: This little fact will not change.
It hasn't changed in the eighteen years since Gimmel Tammuz, and it is not going to change on DDF.

To clarify: I don't mind that there are those who disagree with Chabad about the identity of Moshiach. In fact, I don't expect it to be otherwise. I dare say that any sane Lubavitcher would not expect otherwise.
But it is extraordinarily presumptuous, (for a lack of more appropriate words that are still polite,) to label a whole segment of Frum Jewry as heretics, based on feelings which have no foundation.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: dirah on February 07, 2012, 03:55:31 AM
I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 
Wow, that makes us tenth cousins, or something.
Who would have thought that I would discover Mishpocha on DDF!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 07, 2012, 04:03:06 AM
I didn't realize you (and your other family members we know) are such baalei yichus :P


+1, nice surprise.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmuelb on February 07, 2012, 07:39:23 AM
I have many friends who are Chabad, meshichists and non and I have had great Chabad experiences.

Without getting into the question of if Moshiach could come from the deceased, I present the view of many in the non-Chabad world.

There is a famous vort from a Godol of the last Dor, he asked how can Moshiach come in this dor? If he has a knitted Kippa, the Charedi will not accept him, if he has a down-hat, the Chassidim won't accept him etc. He explained from Esther - ain Esther magedes moladta... that everyone thought she was from their nation (Gemara). So too, he explained, that when Moshiach will come, everyone will accept him, everyone will connect to him and respect him.

If you are Chabad, you can claim that all religous Jews held of the Rebbe as a Moshiach or you can say that those who don't are not Jews, they don't count. I will not answer you either way, I think the vort stands. Maybe the Rebbe was a great man, but non-Chabad members will say that the reality is, he was not accepted by most of the dor. That is one simple reason why they do not consider him to BE Moshiach. If he comes back then maybe everyone will think he is Moshiach but the same can be said for any Gadol or lehavdil elef havdalos, Bob. Until that happens ...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 08:48:38 AM
He was the gadol hador. Ki dvar hashem bazah. I'm mocheh. You were michalel shem shamayim brabim.
+1
the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him,
thats simply not true
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 08:55:11 AM
Not even remotely comparable.  You are further displaying your ignorance.
The problem with shabsai tzvi and his followers who violated mitzvahs and ate on tisha b'av for example is the same problem we have with yashka as is tackled by R' Schochet:
   There is not a single case of any Meshichists abrogating or changing a
   single mitzvah or aspect of Halachah! In fact, they continuously urge
   greater and more punctilious observance of Torah and mitzvot to hasten
   the redemption.
also not true, see here http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=23541
and here http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2010/01/are-all-lubavitchers-messianic.html
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 10:30:02 AM
For the same reason G-d's existence can't be proven beyond doubt: it would preclude b'chira.
Look in Kovetz Maamarim from R' Elchonon Wasserman Hy''d, Article titled "B'Inyan Emunah", that intellectually it can be proven beyond a doubt, bechirah kicks in by way of the taavos leading the mind astray, but it can be proven beyond a doubt to the pure intellectual mind, ayin sham vetimtzeh nachas.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 10:52:02 AM
Look in Kovetz Maamarim from R' Elchonon Wasserman Hy''d, Article titled "B'Inyan Emunah", that intellectually it can be proven beyond a doubt, bechirah kicks in by way of the taavos leading the mind astray, but it can be proven beyond a doubt to the pure intellectual mind, ayin sham vetimtzeh nachas.

Sorry, too many flaws in the logic (at least as presented here (http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/2001/elchonon.htm)) for me to accept that.

I don't mean any disrespect to R' Wasserman Tatzal, but the following remains in question:

1. What happens before the first taavah a person chooses, do they then have clarity/purity? If yes, how could they make that first wrong choice and choose the taava?
2. What's the halachic proof (he cites a midrash), why don't the Rambam or any of the Jewish philosophers (chokrim) present it this way?
3. The midrash is referring to the almighty as the creator of the world, but what about the vastness of Hashem that transcends that, how can we prove that part?
4. The source midrash makes no mention of taavos, or the reason why the person wouldn't have seen it on his own, or what R' Akiva would indeed accomplish by telling him this if his intellectual clarity was indeed compromised.

This is surely not the classical approach to b'chira, but it's a nice perspective nevertheless, ושבעים פנים לתורה.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:21:06 AM
  also not true, see here http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=23541
and here http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2010/01/are-all-lubavitchers-messianic.html
Sorry, but those aren't meshchists or lubavitchers.  They are mental hospital patients. 
You can find crazy people in any sect and it proves nothing at all.

The blogger tries to equate the insane actions of a few people to castigate tens of thousands of mainstream lubavitchers because most of us believe that is is possible (and of course possible otherwise) that the Rebbe can be moshiach.
Again, totally ignoring numerous sources that such a thing is in the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:24:56 AM
I have many friends who are Chabad, meshichists and non and I have had great Chabad experiences.

Without getting into the question of if Moshiach could come from the deceased, I present the view of many in the non-Chabad world.

There is a famous vort from a Godol of the last Dor, he asked how can Moshiach come in this dor? If he has a knitted Kippa, the Charedi will not accept him, if he has a down-hat, the Chassidim won't accept him etc. He explained from Esther - ain Esther magedes moladta... that everyone thought she was from their nation (Gemara). So too, he explained, that when Moshiach will come, everyone will accept him, everyone will connect to him and respect him.

If you are Chabad, you can claim that all religous Jews held of the Rebbe as a Moshiach or you can say that those who don't are not Jews, they don't count. I will not answer you either way, I think the vort stands. Maybe the Rebbe was a great man, but non-Chabad members will say that the reality is, he was not accepted by most of the dor. That is one simple reason why they do not consider him to BE Moshiach. If he comes back then maybe everyone will think he is Moshiach but the same can be said for any Gadol or lehavdil elef havdalos, Bob. Until that happens ...
I'm not sure what your point is. The vort is silly quite frankly.

Most people acknowledge that the Rebbe was a great man, an ohev yisroel, and a scholar.

People go crazy that lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe could be moshiach, but quite frankly 99.9% of lubavitchers would be just fine if someone else turned out to me moshiach, just like 99.9% of misnagdim would accept the Rebbe if he appeared today and was revealed to be moshiach.

The real bottom line is who cares what everyone else thinks and why are rabbis cursing out lubavitchers for their thoughts?  There is plenty of basis in torah for thoughts that someone could be moshiach, thus the cursing out is uncalled for.
The 2nd B"H was destroyed from sinas chinam.  How about a little bit of Ahavas Chinum as the Rebbe often called for, and surely we will merit to see moshiach, whomever he may be, as soon as today!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 11:27:22 AM
I'm not sure what your point is. The vort is silly quite frankly.

Most people acknowledge that the Rebbe was a great man, an ohev yisroel, and a scholar.

People go crazy that lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe could be moshiach, but quite frankly 99.9% of lubavitchers would be just fine if someone else turned out to me moshiach, just like 99.9% of misnagdim would accept the Rebbe if he appeared today and was revealed to be moshiach.
Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 11:27:55 AM
Sorry, but those aren't meshchists or lubavitchers.  They are mental hospital patients. 
You can find crazy people in any sect and it proves nothing at all.
so not only from tsfat? let the list begin. the crownheights link also mentions a woman in 770 who does this on a regular basis

The blogger tries to equate the insane actions of a few people to castigate tens of thousands of mainstream lubavitchers because most of us believe that is is possible (and of course possible otherwise) that the Rebbe can be moshiach.
Again, totally ignoring numerous sources that such a thing is in the realm of possibility.
i only linked the blogger to show that the very person who put them in cherem, himself signed a 'psak din' that the rebbe IS moshiach
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:29:33 AM
Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?
If he gathers all the jews in Israel and performs the signs that he is moshiach then so be it.
I would then ask Eliyahu how could a man who had so much sinas chinum turn out to be moshiach, but to think that would hinder his acceptance is foolhardy.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
If he gathers all the jews in Israel and performs the signs that he is moshiach then so be it.
I would then ask Eliyahu how could a man who had so much sinas chinum turn out to be moshiach, but to think that would hinder his acceptance is foolhardy.
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 11:32:17 AM
And if the lubavitcher rebbe will be moshiach I'll ask Eliyahu How a rebbe Like that (I wont go into details) could be moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:32:44 AM
so not only from tsfat? let the list begin. the crownheights link also mentions a woman in 770 who does this on a regular basis
Wow, a woman from Brooklyn is also a mental patient.  #ShockedITellYou #InOtherNews

Should we start looking for Lakewood nutjobs also and make blogs about them.
This isn't mainstream even one iota, just pure silliness and propaganda.

i only linked the blogger to show that the very person who put them in cherem, himself signed a 'psak din' that the rebbe IS moshiach
Yes, there were some rabbis who believed that doing so would cause the revelation of moshiach.  It didn't.  Moving on...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:33:29 AM
And if the lubavitcher rebbe will be moshiach I'll ask Eliyahu How a rebbe Like that (I wont go into details) could be moshiach.
Fair enough.
Again, it seems the "vort" is silly as only a fool wouldn't recognize the signs of the true coming of moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
this type of banter is what brings this thread down. there shouldnt be any personal attacks againt r' shach or the rebbe
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 07, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Since when is chabad into moshiach?

I don't follow

:)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 11:34:50 AM
And if the lubavitcher rebbe will be moshiach I'll ask Eliyahu How a rebbe Like that (I wont go into details) could be moshiach.
but that's a far cry from it being against halachah to believe it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 11:35:54 AM
this type of banter is what brings this thread down. there shouldnt be any personal attacks againt r' shach or the rebbe

+1

This kind of 'banter' is what delays the coming of Moshiach  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 11:36:05 AM
but that's a far cry from it being against halachah to believe it.
huh?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 11:37:33 AM
i only linked the blogger to show that the very person who put them in cherem, himself signed a 'psak din' that the rebbe IS moshiach
That just proves Dan's point.
These are a handful of crazies and even the most meshicist rabonim will say that what they say/do is 100% assur and against torah.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 11:40:12 AM
huh?
If he can't understand how the Rebbe can be Moshiach, that's fine.
But that doesn't mean those who do believe it fall outside the pale of orthodox judaism.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 11:42:36 AM
If he can't understand how the Rebbe can be Moshiach, that's fine.
But that doesn't mean those who do believe it fall outside the pale of orthodox judaism.
oh, i thought you meant something else entirely
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 11:43:39 AM
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach. You cant know who it is and wont know till he comes. Why are all lubavitchers always connecting e/t to moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 11:46:18 AM
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach. You cant know who it is and wont know till he comes. Why are all lubavitchers always connecting e/t to moshiach?
Again, this is a hergesh that comes as part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship and isn't unique to chabad.  This has also been the beef of misnagdim for centuries.

As for me, I'm just wondering why anyone would care and get all hot and bothered over what someone else thinks?

Live and let live is my motto.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 11:46:55 AM
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach. You cant know who it is and wont know till he comes. Why are all lubavitchers always connecting e/t to moshiach?
I take it this means you gave up on the kefirah/a"z angle and you're moving on to the next attack now?
(what's next? how can we put tefillin on someone who didn't wash negel vasser?)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 11:51:24 AM
Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?

Was R' Shach a kohen?

Why are all lubavitchers always connecting e/t to moshiach?

 כל ימי חייך להביא לימות המשיח

:P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 12:10:13 PM
כל ימי חייך להביא לימות המשיח

:P
i hope you put that smiling face in because thats completely out of context
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 12:29:43 PM
i hope you put that smiling face in because thats completely out of context

Exactly. Of course I know it's out of context, but a great chassidishe pshat nevertheless.

Literally it means the opposite, that even when Moshiach comes we'll remember the exodus from Egypt.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 01:46:32 PM
Was R' Shach a kohen?
thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 01:47:47 PM
thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs
Why not let cbs speak for himself?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 01:48:00 PM
thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs

It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:

Now that's just ignorance...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 01:49:17 PM
Amazing poem please read.

"Mashiach's Hat"

T'was the night of the geulah, and in every single shteibel, sounds of Torah could be heard, coming from every kind of Yeidel.

This one in English, some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish, some saying pshat, and some saying chiddush.

And up in shomayim, the Aibishter decreed, "The time has come for My children to be freed.

Rouse the Mashiach from his heavenly berth, have him get in his chariot and head down to Earth."

The Moshiach got dressed, and with a heart full of glee, went down to the Earth, and entered the first shteibel he did see.

"I'm the Moshiach, Hashem has heard your plea, your geulah has come, it is time to go free!"

They all stopped their learning, this was quite a surprise, And they looked at him carefully with piercing sharp eyes.

"He's not the Mashiach!" said one with a grin, "Just look at his hat, at the pinches and brim!"

"That's right!", cried another with a grimace and a frown, "Whoever heard of Mashiach with a brim that is down?!"

"Well", thought Mashiach, "If that is the rule, I'll turn my brim up before I go to the next shule!"

So he walked on right over to the next shule in town, confident to be accepted since his brim was no longer down.

"I'm the Mashiach!", he cried as he began to enter. But the Jews there wanted to know first, if he was left, right, or center.

"Your clothes are so black!" they cried out in a fright. "You can't be Mashiach --you're much too far right!

If you want to be Mashiach, you must be properly outfitted." So they replaced his black hat with a kipa that was knitted.

Wearing his new kipa, Mashiach went out and he said, "No difference to me what I wear on my head."

So he went to the next shule, for his mission was dear, But he was getting a bit frustrated with the Yidden down here.

"I'm the Mashiach!" he cried, and they all stopped to stare. And a complete eerie stillness filled up the air.

"You're the Mashiach?! Just imagine that. Whoever heard of Mashiach without a black hat?!"

"But I do have a hat!" the Mashiach then said. So he pulled it right out and plunked it down on his head.

Then the Shule started laughing, and one said, "Where's your kop? You can't have Mashiach with a brim that is up!

If you want to be Mashiach, and be accepted in this town, put some pinches in your hat, and turn that brim down!"

Mashiach walked out and said, "I guess my time hasn't really come, I'll just have to return to where I came from.

So he went to his chariot, but as he began to enter, all sorts of Jews appeared, from left, right, and center.

"Please wait, do not leave, it's all THEIR fault!" they said And they pointed to each other, and to what was on each other's head.

Mashiach just looked sad, and said, "You don't understand." And then started up his chariot to get out of this land.

"Yes, it's very wonderful, that all of you learn Torah, But you seem to have forgotten, a crucial part of our mesorah."

"What does he mean? What's he talking about?" And they all looked bewildered, and all began to shout.

Mashiach looked back and answered, "The first place to start, is to shut up your mouths, and open up your heart.

To each of you, certain Yidden seem too frum or too frei but ALL Yidden are beloved, in the Aibeshter's eye."

And on his way up he shouted, "If you want me to come, try working a little harder on some ahavas chinam."

By Rabbi Yitzchok Feigenbaum The principal of a beis yaakov school :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 01:49:50 PM
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot.
In can be moot, but the question can still be asked in inyan geredt.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 01:51:34 PM
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:
he was not a kohen
Why not let cbs speak for himself?
i think he already did when he called him a rasha which besides for being quite a stupid and assur thing to say was hypocritical
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 01:51:55 PM
In can be moot, but the question can still be asked in inyan geredt.

Inyan geredt, Moshiach is more than just a person, but we already said that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 01:58:07 PM
It's not. If he's a kohen then he definitely isn't from the descendants of King David, in which case the discussion is moot. Again:

Now that's just ignorance...
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 02:07:58 PM
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question
And like yesterday your question (about someones personal hergesh, which I am not sure why you care about) was already answered.
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 02:12:44 PM
and like yesterday i admit to ignorance on the laws of mashiach and i still dont care bec your answer yesterday and today just avoid the point of the question

1. The point of the question is whether we'll accept R' Shach as moshiach? That wasn't the OP's question.
2. We can't discuss who is (potentially) moshiach before we defined what he (and the concept) is, zil gmor.

The answer to the question about Shach appearing as Moshiach was answered by Dan, and I share his sentiments. If you want to know Cbs' take on the matter, ask him directly to address the question. If you feel there was a part of the question that wasn't answered, clarify what that is and people could address that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 02:14:31 PM
And like yesterday your question (about someones personal hergesh, which I am not sure why you care about) was already answered.
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on February 07, 2012, 02:16:58 PM
This is crazy. Everyone can believe whoever he wants to be as moshiach. In general it says in Gemara that each sect believes his rebbe is moshiach. It's a clear gemara. The students of x believed he was moshiach, the students of y believed he was moshiach etc.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 02:17:33 PM
Sorry, too many flaws in the logic (at least as presented here (http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/2001/elchonon.htm)) for me to accept that.

I don't mean any disrespect to R' Wasserman Tatzal, but the following remains in question:

1. What happens before the first taavah a person chooses, do they then have clarity/purity? If yes, how could they make that first wrong choice and choose the taava?
2. What's the halachic proof (he cites a midrash), why don't the Rambam or any of the Jewish philosophers (chokrim) present it this way?
3. The midrash is referring to the almighty as the creator of the world, but what about the vastness of Hashem that transcends that, how can we prove that part?
4. The source midrash makes no mention of taavos, or the reason why the person wouldn't have seen it on his own, or what R' Akiva would indeed accomplish by telling him this if his intellectual clarity was indeed compromised.

This is surely not the classical approach to b'chira, but it's a nice perspective nevertheless, ושבעים פנים לתורה.
to be honest, i don't understand fully what your objections are. but in truth i think it's too deep an inyan to discuss with a keyboard (at least for me), i would need to use my mouth. btw, it's presented much clearer in the sefer itself. thanx for taking the time to read and anylize it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 02:19:57 PM
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is
Please as AsherO suggested state a direct question, and it will be answered... I am beyond confused as to what you are asking. if you look at you posts from yesterday I was answering exactly that. Now you are changing the wording of the question, its just a bit frustrating as I am sure you can understand... #Ihatesyntax
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 02:21:54 PM
i am not asking about someones personal hergsh, and the question was not answered by that bec that is only a reason to want him to be mashiach not to think that he is

These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/7760/jewish/Perek-11.htm) for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

#Ihatesyntax

#ilovesyntax
#syntaxisempowering
#ihatesyntaxabuse
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 02:24:17 PM
Why do you have to live your life believing S/o is moshiach.
See I think the real question here is why live your life wondering and attacking what the other person thinks or believes.
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 02:25:24 PM
Frankly I don't care who moshiach is, I just would hope to see him in my lifetime.

Today! :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 02:27:24 PM
#ilovesyntax
#syntaxisempowering
#ihatesyntaxabuse
Granted, and Thank you because the truth is I LOVE syntax. As seen earlier in this thread. AsherO you never cease to amaze :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 02:28:15 PM
Today! :D
a la "Do teshuva one day before you die"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 02:32:06 PM
1. The point of the question is whether we'll accept R' Shach as moshiach? That wasn't the OP's question.
as i understood the OP (jewda) he was saying/asking that many lubavitchers would not accept rav shach zt"l because they did not like him, meaning even if he fufilled all the technical obligations that are needed to be mashiach.
2. We can't discuss who is (potentially) moshiach before we defined what he (and the concept) is, zil gmor.
im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could be
The answer to the question about Shach appearing as Moshiach was answered by Dan, and I share his sentiments. If you want to know Cbs' take on the matter, ask him directly to address the question. If you feel there was a part of the question that wasn't answered, clarify what that is and people could address that.
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
and as for cbs i was being mocheh for kovod torah and he is welcome to answer back
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 02:37:16 PM
These questions were answered by Dan's long posts.

As to why not the אבות, see הלכה ד here (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/7760/jewish/Perek-11.htm) for clarification/description of who moshiach is and why they don't qualify.

i accepted his answer (and i posted that) and my point wasnt that the avos should be mashiach but that i never knew a dead person could be mashiach but if so why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 02:46:17 PM
i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
Granted, and Thank you because the truth is I LOVE syntax. As seen earlier in this thread. AsherO you never cease to amaze :)

Awww  :-[

a la "Do teshuva one day before you die"

No, a la it's really so wonderful and desirable, I wannit now!

@McLovin

1. Jewda isn't the OP, Reuven is.
2. Your questions were all addressed.
3, your contradict yourself as follows:
im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could bei
then
why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 02:54:54 PM
No, a la it's really so wonderful and desirable, I wannit now!
Fair enough, but either way the answer is today.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 02:55:40 PM
Fair enough, but either way the answer is today.

Now! :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 03:04:40 PM
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 03:05:43 PM
You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)

I don't think this guy deserves us taking him seriously.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:16:10 PM
I dont understand your obsession with R Shach believe me had the rebbe said the same about R Shach we wouldnt have cared much and certainly not still today, why the insecurity about the rebbe from his own followers ?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 03:18:08 PM
I dont understand your obsession with R Shach believe me had the rebbe said the same about R Shach we wouldnt have cared much and certainly not still today, why the insecurity about the rebbe from his own followers ?

Right. We get together all the time and mope about what R' Shach said about our Rebbe ::)

It was specifically stated as a response to a question, otherwise I don't think anyone in the Chabad community gives it much thought.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:20:13 PM
there are clearly very strong feelings here judging from the responses
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 03:20:54 PM
I remember when RAV shach was niftar the local chabad yeshiva where I was living made a huge party that night.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 03:21:39 PM
there are clearly very strong feelings here judging from the responses

Strong feelings when we think about what was said, but we don't spend much time thinking about it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
to me it looks like insecurities and this might explain the whole chabad in your face mehalech come to think of it
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmuelb on February 07, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I'm not sure what your point is. The vort is silly quite frankly.

Most people acknowledge that the Rebbe was a great man, an ohev yisroel, and a scholar.

People go crazy that lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe could be moshiach, but quite frankly 99.9% of lubavitchers would be just fine if someone else turned out to me moshiach, just like 99.9% of misnagdim would accept the Rebbe if he appeared today and was revealed to be moshiach.

The real bottom line is who cares what everyone else thinks and why are rabbis cursing out lubavitchers for their thoughts?  There is plenty of basis in torah for thoughts that someone could be moshiach, thus the cursing out is uncalled for.
The 2nd B"H was destroyed from sinas chinam.  How about a little bit of Ahavas Chinum as the Rebbe often called for, and surely we will merit to see moshiach, whomever he may be, as soon as today!

I agree with you 100%. (but not that the Vort is silly) why argue? We should all get along with each other, sing, dance, drink with each other and then Moshiach will really come! Lehavdil, not to quote Rodney King.

We should not talk, or type, bad things about other Jews, and especially other people's leaders.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2012, 03:34:23 PM
The answer to the question about Shach ...

And don't think shach only

I coughed up one time to a typo... but twice?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
I agree with you 100%. (but not that the Vort is silly) why argue? We should all get along with each other, sing, dance, drink with each other and then Moshiach will really come! Lehavdil, not to quote Rodney King.

We should not talk, or type, bad things about other Jews, and especially other people's leaders.
+1 Very good, so now we are cursing each other out, saying negative things about large groups of people, being mevazeh gedolim, Dan i begged you to stop this thread, i'm gonna ask you again, shut it down, it's not making anyone smarter, it's sinas chinam.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: good sam on February 07, 2012, 03:37:10 PM
I remember when RAV shach was niftar the local chabad yeshiva where I was living made a huge party that night.
I have seen/heard similar sentiments but I do not believe they are the norm. (Also, the Lubavitchers throw huge parties every time someone sneezes, so it wasn't necessarily for that.)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 03:40:51 PM
I have seen/heard similar sentiments but I do not believe they are the norm. (Also, the Lubavitchers throw huge parties every time someone sneezes, so it wasn't necessarily for that.)
No they told me specificly it was B/c rav shach was niftar. (And btw dan has been to this rosh yeshivas house).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:41:24 PM
dan closing down this thread will not make you look weak or incapable of defending your hashgafa ,if you dont close it will get out of hand
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 03:42:26 PM
No they told me specificly it was B/c rav shach was niftar. (And btw dan has been to this rosh yeshivas house).
Care to be more specific?
At any rate lubavitchers also threw parties when the rebbe himself died, so I'm not sure what we're trying to prove.

You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)
Are you for real?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
dan closing down this thread will not make you look weak or incapable of defending your hashgafa ,if you dont close it will get out of hand
It would not make him look weak. It will make him a mature leader, capable of making smart unpopular decisions.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 03:49:49 PM
believe me had the rebbe said the same about R Shach we wouldnt have cared much and certainly not still today, why the insecurity about the rebbe from his own followers ?
That's exactly the point.
The Rebbe would never say such things about an "am ha'aretz", let alone a "gadol"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 03:49:56 PM
to me it looks like insecurities and this might explain the whole chabad in your face mehalech come to think of it

In your face?

dan closing down this thread will not make you look weak or incapable of defending your hashgafa ,

Why does he need to defend his hashkafa? Telling him he needs to defnd it imples you're attacking him, why are you doing so?

if you dont close it will get out of hand

Is that a threat? What do you suggest he should do then?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 03:52:40 PM
Care to be more specific?
At any rate lubavitchers also threw parties when the rebbe himself died, so I'm not sure what we're trying to prove.
Are you for real?
I'd rather not be specific.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 03:53:27 PM

Is that a threat? What do you suggest he should do then?
it wasn't a threat, it was a prediction
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
thank you lamdan, ashero you sound ready to explode
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 03:56:03 PM
thank you lamdan, ashero you sound ready to explode

I'm not looking to explode. But it I was it would be due to some people's lack of respect in this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 03:59:00 PM
if the 2 satmars had this discusion going it would look alot worse so far this is respectful but we both know most of our ammunition is being held in reserve
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on February 07, 2012, 04:00:53 PM
most of our ammunition is being held in reserve
that's exactly what i'm very worried about.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 04:05:03 PM
From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.
you are apparently not aware of the issues. you disagree with him, but it definitely was not baseless
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 04:08:47 PM
if the 2 satmars had this discusion going it would look alot worse so far this is respectful but we both know most of our ammunition is being held in reserve

I don't have any ammunition, you're Jewish and I love you for that. I disagree with you on some of the issues discussed in this thread, and I feel bad for you that you don't know how to have a respectful conversation, no ammo though.

you are apparently not aware of the issues. you disagree with him, but it definitely was not baseless

It's not baseless to call the Rebbe a madman?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 04:18:28 PM
the ammo is not against you my fellow jew
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 04:19:04 PM
the ammo is not against you my fellow jew

Then which fellow Jew is it against? Why ammo against any fellow Jew?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 04:25:44 PM
Then which fellow Jew is it against? Why ammo against any fellow Jew?
+1 and exactly the problem with this entire thread.  Every other post is trying to attack a fellow Jew.
I'm not going to lock this thread in case the OP wants to post his Rabbi's response, but let's refrain from any further attacks that don't have to do with clarifying the halachic position on the belief that someone who was niftar may be moshiach.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on February 07, 2012, 04:28:48 PM
+1 and exactly the problem with this entire thread.  Every other post is trying to attack a fellow Jew.
I'm not going to lock this thread in case the OP wants to post his Rabbi's response, but let's refrain from any further attacks that don't have to do with clarifying the halachic position on the belief that someone who was niftar may be moshiach.
+1
As stated on the second post this was gonna get out of hand :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmuelb on February 07, 2012, 04:42:55 PM
Please, whoever has anything to say, do not denigrate other's Gedolim. Whatever you think of Putin, he is my president and prime minister for life! When talking to me, it is very disrespectful to refer to him in a derogatory way. Got it?

The only way I got someone to talk respectfully (when having this huge argument in Tzfas, in the Yeshiva) was showing this guy how it feels if you talk about their Gadol the way they talk about your Gadol. "Do you know what they say about ... and the stories they say about him when he was in ...??"

This means - do not say shach or shneorson or ganav or sinas chinum etc. you may not change the way you think about someone but at least temper the way you talk about them.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2012, 04:48:00 PM
This means - do not say shach or shneorson or ganav or sinas chinum etc. you may not change the way you think about someone but at least temper the way you talk about them.

I ain't got no skin in this fight, but I gotta agree with that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 04:50:48 PM
That's exactly the point.
The Rebbe would never say such things about an "am ha'aretz", let alone a "gadol"
+1,000,000

I apologize for offending anyone, but it is extremely difficult to have a calm and rational conversation about someone who calls your Rebbe a madman and your religion a cult and not part of Judaism. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
I ain't got no skin in this fight, but I gotta agree with that.

I agree as well. I mentioned R' Shach four times in this thread, and (only) once I inadvertently omitted the R', I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

While saying that, I think mentioning R' Shach in the context of this thread was a mistake, and now that it was brought up I believe Chabad people should have the right to be moiche about what he said. And yes, Jewda (IMHO) has the right to be moiche about what Cbs said. Either way, R' Shach is OT in the context of this discussion, and the Chabad people who were asked stated that if he indeed appeared as the Moshiach we would recognize him as such, not let's get back on topic please.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 04:57:09 PM
I agree as well. I mentioned R' Shach four times in this thread, and (only) once I inadvertently omitted the R', I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

While saying that, I think mentioning R' Shach in the context of this thread was a mistake, and now that it was brought up I believe Chabad people should have the right to be moiche about what he said. And yes, Jewda (IMHO) has the right to be moiche about what Cbs said. Either way, Shach is OT in the context of this discussion, and the Chabad people who were asked stated that if he indeed appeared as the Moshiach we would recognize him as such, not let's get back on topic please.
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on February 07, 2012, 04:58:40 PM
I agree as well. I mentioned R' Shach four times in this thread, and (only) once I inadvertently omitted the R', I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

While saying that, I think mentioning R' Shach in the context of this thread was a mistake, and now that it was brought up I believe Chabad people should have the right to be moiche about what he said. And yes, Jewda (IMHO) has the right to be moiche about what Cbs said. Either way, R' Shach is OT in the context of this discussion, and the Chabad people who were asked stated that if he indeed appeared as the Moshiach we would recognize him as such, not let's get back on topic please.

C'mon, make an effort  :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 05:00:31 PM
C'mon, make an effort  :P

An effort to what? Further agitate the conversation in an off-topic way?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on February 07, 2012, 05:01:40 PM
An effort to what? Further agitate the conversation in an off-topic way?

No, I mean you went out of your way to say that you've been putting the R' in there except maybe once unintentionally, and then you left it out in the next paragraph.

(Was that the wrong type of smiley for the situation? I can never get those right.)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 05:05:22 PM
No, I mean you went out of your way to say that you've been putting the R' in there except maybe once unintentionally, and then you left it out in the next paragraph.

(Was that the wrong type of smiley for the situation? I can never get those right.)

FTFY. Again, I may feel a certain way, but I'm not going to consciously say things here to offend people.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
I just don't get one thing:

Presumably, everyone involved in this discussion is Jewish. That means there is no "your gadol" or "my gadol" or "your rebbe" or "my rebbe", at least with regard to the respect to be accorded them.

They are our gedolim, and our rabbeim. We are one. Like it or not.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 07, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
I just don't get one thing:

Presumably, everyone involved in this discussion is Jewish. That means there is no "your gadol" or "my gadol" or "your rebbe" or "my rebbe", at least with regard to the respect to be accorded them.

They are our gedolim, and our rabbeim. We are one. Like it or not.

Halevai. If this was the case Moshiach would be here already.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2012, 05:17:40 PM
If this was the case Moshiach would be here already.

If only.

My "lofty ideal" only accounts for our attitudes towards the leaders of a generation, which, unfortunately, says nothing of the others of the generation, as is evidenced by this very thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 05:20:40 PM
My "lofty ideal" only accounts for our attitudes towards the leaders of a generation,
the "fighting" here appears to be over what constitutes "the leaders of [our] generation"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2012, 05:22:35 PM
the "fighting" here appears to be over what constitutes "the leaders of [our] generation"

Are there people here who truly dispute that either of the two giants mentioned in this thread were not leaders of our generation???
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 05:24:53 PM
Are there people here who truly dispute that either of the two giants mentioned in this thread were not leaders of our generation???
now that things appear to have cooled down a little I won't answer that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 07, 2012, 05:26:23 PM
Jiminy, this whole thing did get out of hand.

I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post, since like so many hashkafic things, there is not true psak. I'll bring my Rav and sources, you'll have your Rav and sources, and we'll never reconcile. Therefore, that discussion is more or less pointless, and I specifically didn't bring it up.

I was trying to focus more on how it developed, how it's handled in Chabad, and what ppl think the future will bring. Not whether it's justified, or crazy, or logical, or avoda zara.

Since I was in this yeshiva 10 yrs ago, I haven't spoken with this Rav in a while, but I can try to get in touch with him to hear what he says.

I still want to discuss some of the more sane posts, such as CBS's first post, but I haven't had a chance. Every time I open the thread, there are 5 more pages added.

Hopefully tomorrow (I'm in Israel now, and it's late).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 07, 2012, 05:30:11 PM
I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post,
Not outright.
You merely mentioned that you wont daven in a chabad minyan if possible...
(Implying that we might not be kosher for a minyan)


EDIT: I understand you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just pointing out how offensive it (inadvertently) turned out.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 07, 2012, 05:50:40 PM
Not outright.
You merely mentioned that you wont daven in a chabad minyan if possible...
(Implying that we might not be kosher for a minyan)


EDIT: I understand you weren't trying to be offensive, I'm just pointing out how offensive it (inadvertently) turned out.

You're correct, I did mention that, but only in context of my background. I tried to ensure it wouldn't enter into my questions at the end.

I will mention another concern that I forgot to add into my original post which is the potential for chillul hashem. I say this primarily in regards to the category of ppl who think he's still alive (and this was the approach of the bachur I spoke with). If I was either a gentile or a non-religious Jew, seeing many of the signs and comments in Israel, I would probably have had very demeaning thoughts of Judaism as a whole.
I personally didn't, since I have a history with Chabad, and a deep respect for what they have historically done in the US with their kiruv. So a few wackos weren't going to change my opinion of the movement as a whole.
However, as I tried telling this bachur, their campaign to have ppl recognize that the Rebbe is the mashiach (he was telling me that the Rebbe won't reveal himself until we are all mamluch him, meaning that we all recognize him as the mashiach), causes them to lose focus on what I feel they have done best for clal yisroel, which is kiruv.
Now... I understand that in Israel, they may not have as much of a focus on kiruv as they have in the US due to the different demographics, but still... to focus almost solely on this?!? cmon already

Now it's really late. I'll see ya'll tomorrow
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 06:12:58 PM
(he was telling me that the Rebbe won't reveal himself until we are all mamluch him, meaning that we all recognize him as the mashiach
As I suspected, he sounds like a complete loon.

Now... I understand that in Israel, they may not have as much of a focus on kiruv as they have in the US due to the different demographics, but still... to focus almost solely on this?!? cmon already
There should be even a bigger focus in Israel on getting people to put tefillin on, etc, as the market is all jewish!

Focus solely? 
If you feel that way it's because the ones you hear making the most noise and see in the streets are the loons. 
How exactly would you see someone practicing being an anti-meshichist?  You wouldn't.

The same way that the spitting jews in beit shamesh don't represent chareidim unless you watch the Israeli news propaganda is the same way the loons don't represent Chabad unless you buy into the propaganda espoused by people that were anti-chabad long before this became an issue.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 07, 2012, 06:23:44 PM
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 07, 2012, 06:39:17 PM
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)
I'm not sure why the insistence to keep going back to this obviously sore subject, but see footnote 15 (http://books.google.com/books?id=SZR6ZOS0-KsC&pg=PA110&dq=he+madman+who+sits+in+New+York+and+drives+the+whole+world+crazy..&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_bUxT-juO8KL0QHnk5HNBw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=he%20madman%20who%20sits%20in%20New%20York%20and%20drives%20the%20whole%20world%20crazy..&f=false)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: good sam on February 07, 2012, 06:41:33 PM
is there a source for r' shach calling the rebbe a madman? (r' shach didnt speak english. how do you say madman in yiddish or hebrew?)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=translate+madman+to+hebrew
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: JEWDA on February 07, 2012, 06:44:16 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=translate+madman+to+hebrew
He prob. said it in yidish
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: gozalim on February 07, 2012, 07:08:33 PM
Jiminy, this whole thing did get out of hand.

I specifically didn't mention anything about the halachik possibility in the opening post, since like so many hashkafic things, there is not true psak. I'll bring my Rav and sources, you'll have your Rav and sources, and we'll never reconcile. Therefore, that discussion is more or less pointless, and I specifically didn't bring it up.

I was trying to focus more on how it developed, how it's handled in Chabad, and what ppl think the future will bring. Not whether it's justified, or crazy, or logical, or avoda zara.

Since I was in this yeshiva 10 yrs ago, I haven't spoken with this Rav in a while, but I can try to get in touch with him to hear what he says.

I still want to discuss some of the more sane posts, such as CBS's first post, but I haven't had a chance. Every time I open the thread, there are 5 more pages added.

Hopefully tomorrow (I'm in Israel now, and it's late).
to echo wYME's  last post, your original comment is the part I personally found most offensive in the whole discussion.

when haters and extremists say hateful things and consider each other outside the pale, that is to be expected.

what bothers me here is that Reuven, who was trying to honestly have a friendly halachic discussion, sees nothing wrong with
When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan,
that scares me. truth is, it's not Reuven's problem, it's his Rav's.
when it becomes okay to excomunicate an entire community- and such behavior is considered mainstream- that is scary.

consider that Reuven is being asked to consider an entire community of jes, with which he has a warm relationship, as worse than a Jew who is completely secular ('cause you'd count them for a Minyan) notwithstanding his own 'debt' in Yidishkeit towards said community. and all 'Al Hasafek', that they 'may' hold certain beliefs, which, even if they did, would not be a violation of Halacha at all, much disqualify them from 'Chelek Belokei Yisroel'

Again, we're used to getting this from the fringes, it's when it becomes mainstream that it gets scary
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 07:14:09 PM
@McLovin

1. Jewda isn't the OP, Reuven is.
2. Your questions were all addressed.
3, your contradict yourself as follows:
Quote from: mclovin on Today at 02:32:06 pm

    im not trying to figure out who is mashiach or who it could be

then
Quote from: mclovin on Today at 02:37:16 pm

    why not someone earlier and greater than the rebbe
1) none of my posts (as far as i remember) were ever directed at reuven so not sure why you thought they were. therefore when u said OP i figured u meant the post i was responding to.
2) eventually they were all answered and i agreed when they were
3)ok- im not trying to figure out specifics bec i dont care who mashiach is. as i said before i'm just trying to understand according to your (lubavitch) own logic why the rebbe is mashiach, (meaning that someone dead can be mashiach, which i had never heard of before). and yes dan answered that
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 07, 2012, 07:14:14 PM
I don't want to pour any salt on the wounds here, however I had a rav (some 10k people in his kehilla), who himself is mainstream chabad (or so it looks like), and told a relative of mine not to step in the meshichisten minyan. (they were typically waiting outside to get passerby to complete their minyan).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 09:13:02 PM
i havent had a chance to reply to a few things that i wanted to make clear in order that i dont get accused and it shouldnt be taken in the wrong way, because it seems some people have a hard to time understanding things. - (sorry for bringing the subject back again - but im a diff time zone)

the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, [and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107).]
thats simply not true
Please provide proof to what you are saying (just like you wanted proof the other way around (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg182483#msg182483) otherwise please dont say it.)


Even if R' Shach ZATZAL will be moshiach?
just a small question that has to do with insecurity etc... why do u stress zatzal? u can just write it regularly, what are you trying to prove here? or are you just making it caps to show "in your face" type of thing.
i understand that you respect him and i have nothing against you on that. and i cant blame you otherwise cuz i would do the same thing if my Rebbe C"V said something horrible about someone else i would say thats the way it is. theres only ONE problem: which is the Lubavitcher Rebbe would never say such a thing about anyone.
i only have tainos on him, why did he say that against the rebbe!

now regarding Moshiach - let me make this clear for everyone, i agree with Dan 100% and i quote him: "If he gathers all the jews in Israel and performs the signs that he is moshiach then so be it. I would then ask Eliyahu how could a man who had so much sinas chinum turn out to be moshiach, but to think that would hinder his acceptance is foolhardy."

theres only one problem, that i dont think someone that has sinas Chinum and says what he says qualifies to be Moshiach.

And if the lubavitcher rebbe will be moshiach I'll ask Eliyahu How a rebbe Like that (I wont go into details) could be moshiach.
thats because you simply cant, and you are just answering back like a child that has nothing to say, so you are repeating what Dan said just the other way around.
please bring some basis to what you are saying.

thats completely missing the point. lets say he was a kohen, would chabad accept him? im sure some would (like dan) but for sure many wont, like cbs
?? what makes you think so? i saay like i said above in this post, that if (in inyan geredt)he is Moshiach than obviously i will accept it. i just personally think that, that if wont happen, besides for the fact that he doesnt qualify halachakly. (and pls save your breath and dont tell me the Rebbe doesnt qualify halachikly because that simply isnt true)
 
i think he already did when he called him a rasha which besides for being quite a stupid and assur thing to say was hypocritical
i never stated my opinion on who is moshiach and who i would accept. the only thing i said that he acted in the ways of a rasha by saying what he said (especially about a tzadik). and the only thing you can imply from here which is what i believe, that someone that falls into the category of saying something like a rasha would say than he cant be Moshiach. - but i never said if he was moshiach i wouldnt accept, on the contrary i would (why wouldnt anyone?) but practically speaking its irrelevant if i would or wouldn't.

why was it a stupid thing to say, and why was it hypocritical??

i liked his answer except for the part where he accused rav shach of having sinas chinum (that is not for us to say and definitely not in public like this.
and as for cbs i was being mocheh for kovod torah and he is welcome to answer back
you are saying i accused him as if i need to bring proof of what he did. its clear from all the proofs brought here on the forum (texts/videos - and if u cant find them google them) and much more proof that it was sinas chinum so im just stating a fact.
secondly whats worng with mentioning something in public about someone that said  something horrible about my rebbe - IN PUBLIC
and as for kovod hatora, i will agree with you that he was way more learned then me and knew/learned a lot of torah and but that doesnt change facts of life!

From my view anyone, I don't care how great, learned, and holy someone is, but if they baselessly call my flavor of Orthodox Judaism a “cult” and "the religion closest to Judaism" and my rebbe "the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy" then I will say that person is spewing sinas chinum.

And don't think shach only had hateful things to say about chabad, he also saved plenty of it for many other gedolim and learned rabbis.  For a gadol to say such hateful statements in public about so many other rabbis and fellow jews is practically unheard of.

Still, if he were moshiach I would gladly accept G-ds will, but I would definitely line up to ask Eliyahu to please explain it to me.
+1,000,000

I apologize for offending anyone, but it is extremely difficult to have a calm and rational conversation about someone who calls your Rebbe a madman and your religion a cult and not part of Judaism.
couldnt of said it better!

You wouldnt trust hashem? (I mean the real creator not the rebbe)
do u even realize that you are constantly making a fool out of yourself? this is my 3rd quote to you in this post, and everyone just gets worse then the next!

I dont understand your obsession with R Shach believe me had the rebbe said the same about R Shach we wouldnt have cared much and certainly not still today, why the insecurity about the rebbe from his own followers ?
HAD the rebbe! - Had i jumped off a roof .... what exactly are you proving here?
the Rebbe would never (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg182354#msg182354) say something like that never mind a small insult he would never say.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 10:46:31 PM
the point was we dont care what anyone would say about him based on our confidence in his leadership and our security in our hashkafos
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 07, 2012, 11:00:55 PM
to echo wYME's  last post, your original comment is the part I personally found most offensive in the whole discussion.

when haters and extremists say hateful things and consider each other outside the pale, that is to be expected.

what bothers me here is that Reuven, who was trying to honestly have a friendly halachic discussion, sees nothing wrong with that scares me. truth is, it's not Reuven's problem, it's his Rav's.
when it becomes okay to excomunicate an entire community- and such behavior is considered mainstream- that is scary.

consider that Reuven is being asked to consider an entire community of jes, with which he has a warm relationship, as worse than a Jew who is completely secular ('cause you'd count them for a Minyan) notwithstanding his own 'debt' in Yidishkeit towards said community. and all 'Al Hasafek', that they 'may' hold certain beliefs, which, even if they did, would not be a violation of Halacha at all, much disqualify them from 'Chelek Belokei Yisroel'

Again, we're used to getting this from the fringes, it's when it becomes mainstream that it gets scary

I'm not sure if this makes it better, but I think he said it b/c of the chashash that it may a mashichis minyan. So he was not technically banning the whole Chabad movement, but he was saying that there's enough of these ppl to make all of the minyanim a chashash.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 11:07:04 PM
the point was we dont care what anyone would say about him based on our confidence in his leadership and our security in our hashkafos
first of all all his followers that are posting (i dont mean necessarily u) dont show much confidence in the fact that when said something against what he said - i got fired back at.
2ndly, idk how you are understanding my posts (and others) but i dont have a lack of confidence at all, and im not trying to defend my rebbe - because there is no need to. im simply stating facts that happened and im not accusing anybody of anything. and the fact that all his followers are writing ZATZAL in caps and making a fuss about R' and how they're telling me off on what i called him etc.. from what i understand from what you're saying not, that means they are not confident and they're defending him.

on the other hand Chabad doesnt sit and talk/cry about what people said about our Rebbe. and we are not trying to defend him. the only reason im talking about it is because someone here brought up the topic of how he cursed out the rebbe, and im just laying the facts on the table. and when this is over, i dont really give it another thought.
(and anyways just so u know, if someone has a deep connection to their rebbe and someone blasphemies about them it only makes sense that it will be by some degree personal to the Chossid himself and its not inconfidence, but thats besides the point)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: arie on February 07, 2012, 11:09:55 PM
To asd, jewda, and whoever else that obviously has negative views on the Rebbe. It is not a good idea to walk in to a satmar beis medraash and talk against the satmar Ruv or in to a Lakewood bm and talk against of R' Ahron. It's just not good sense to come here, a predominantly Chabad crowd and spew your shittos which really aren't anything new.  This topic was started as a serious discussion (i think) about different aspects relating to chabad and can be a very interesting and informative discussion. Please, lets try to keep it that way.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: asd on February 07, 2012, 11:12:43 PM
to moicheh for kavod hatorah doesnt show any lack of confidence, to hate him and call him names is very revealing
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 11:14:03 PM
?? what makes you think so? i saay like i said above in this post, that if (in inyan geredt)he is Moshiach than obviously i will accept it. i just personally think that, that if wont happen, besides for the fact that he doesnt qualify halachakly. (and pls save your breath and dont tell me the Rebbe doesnt qualify halachikly because that simply isnt true)
 
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
and as for your last line, not sure if it was directed at me but i never suggested anything like that.

 i never stated my opinion on who is moshiach and who i would accept. the only thing i said that he acted in the ways of a rasha by saying what he said (especially about a tzadik). and the only thing you can imply from here which is what i believe, that someone that falls into the category of saying something like a rasha would say than he cant be Moshiach. - but i never said if he was moshiach i wouldnt accept, on the contrary i would (why wouldnt anyone?) but practically speaking its irrelevant if i would or wouldn't.

why was it a stupid thing to say, and why was it hypocritical??
you said bad things about a gadol for saying bad things about a gadol. self explanatory

you are saying i accused him as if i need to bring proof of what he did. its clear from all the proofs brought here on the forum (texts/videos - and if u cant find them google them) and much more proof that it was sinas chinum so im just stating a fact.
secondly whats worng with mentioning something in public about someone that said  something horrible about my rebbe - IN PUBLIC
and as for kovod hatora, i will agree with you that he was way more learned then me and knew/learned a lot of torah and but that doesnt change facts of life!
when i said accused him of sinas chinum i was actually going on dan. but even so it seems everyone agrees r shach was a gadol even if they have problems with what he said about the rebbe, if so why is it sinas chinum. he felt there were problems (im obviously not expecting you to agree to them) and that is why he said what he said. it wasnt baseless hatred at least according to his own opinion. and as for if its wrong to mention in public, still might be lashon hora, i dont know. and if u agree he was greater than us how can u call him a rasha and not feel that is not a lack of kovod torah
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 11:31:53 PM
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
This thread is getting so lame. If Yashka rebuilt the temple etc (going according to your logic that it was possible for him to be mashiach). I would and every Jew would follow him as moshiach. I don't even understand what it means not to follow mashiach. If moshiach is here its here...

the point was we dont care what anyone would say about him based on our confidence in his leadership and our security in our hashkafos
I remember when RAV shach was niftar the local chabad yeshiva where I was living made a huge party that night.
Seemingly someone cared...

Not to mention I would hope a mentch would admit when someone answers their question to admit it was a valid answer.
like i heard from a big posek almost any shittah you will find somewhere in the all incompasing torah that is why real mesorah is so greatly important

The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 11:34:52 PM
This thread is getting so lame. If Yashka rebuilt the temple etc (going according to your logic that it was possible for him to be mashiach). I would and every Jew would follow him as moshiach. I don't even understand what it means not to follow mashiach. If moshiach is here its here...
not necessarily.  think of all the times klal yisroel did something wrong. they witnessed a lot of very big miracles from hashem and yet it didnt stop them from turning away. so yes if he came back and for some reason i knew it had to be true i would follow him (if i didnt just lose my mind instead). but we dont know how it will work when mashiach comes, so all i can say is at this point i would not accept him
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 07, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
i figured if u called him a rasha you cant logically accept him as mashiach. to give a really dramatic example - if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)
im not gonna yell at you for that comparison but im just gonna say that its not really comparable. and i would never say if hitler ym"s was moshiach bec that would never happen, so its not a matter of accepting him or not. - and if you want to say "IF" he was moshiach than how can you not accept him, if thats who Hashem made Moshiach?

Quote
and as for your last line, not sure if it was directed at me but i never suggested anything like that
it wasnt directed at you, it was to the public, that may say that. cuz i had a feeling someone would answer me that so i answered it b4 someone asked.

Quote
you said bad things about a gadol for saying bad things about a gadol. self explanatory
when i said accused him of sinas chinum i was actually going on dan. but even so it seems everyone agrees r shach was a gadol even if they have problems with what he said about the rebbe, if so why is it sinas chinum. he felt there were problems (im obviously not expecting you to agree to them) and that is why he said what he said. it wasnt baseless hatred at least according to his own opinion. and as for if its wrong to mention in public, still might be lashon hora, i dont know.
i said what he did. i didnt make anything up. ---Example: i never said that he stole money or didnt keep shabbos etc... that would be saying bad things. but if someone did something wrong than im not adding to the fact that he did it by saying he did it.

why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
 
Quote
and if u agree he was greater than us how can u call him a rasha and not feel that is not a lack of kovod torah
more learned doesn't equal greater always.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 11:38:55 PM
not necessarily.  think of all the times klal yisroel did something wrong. they witnessed a lot of very big miracles from hashem and yet it didnt stop them from turning away. so yes if he came back and for some reason i knew it had to be true i would follow him (if i didnt just lose my mind instead). but we dont know how it will work when mashiach comes, so all i can say is at this point i would not accept him
The Ignorance is driving me crazy. You aren't even reading the words you are writing. Obviously at this point you would not accept him because he didn't fulfill the requirements to be moshiach vaday as AsherO made a link to the rambam before.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 07, 2012, 11:43:05 PM
The Ignorance is driving me crazy. You aren't even reading the words you are writing. Obviously at this point you would not accept him because he didn't fulfill the requirements to be moshiach vaday as AsherO made a link to the rambam before.
i dont think you read what you write. everything was based on the fact that the requirements would be fufilled in a hypothetical case. why does everyone keep harping on the point that the requirements are not fufilled. i always say if and therefore it is about the person themself not the technical obligations

 Seemingly someone cared...

Not to mention I would hope a mentch would admit when someone answers their question to admit it was a valid answer.
i hope that was sarcastic
a valid answer
;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: bubbles on February 07, 2012, 11:51:32 PM


why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
  more learned doesn't equal greater always.

I have no desire to get involved in any of this but do not talk in derogatory terms about Rav Shach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 07, 2012, 11:53:20 PM
i dont think you read what you write. everything was based on the fact that the requirements would be fufilled in a hypothetical case. why does everyone keep harping on the point that the requirements are not fufilled. i always say if and therefore it is about the person themself not the technical obligations  i hope that was sarcastic ;D

The person has no baring in halacha once the "if" is fulfilled hence the discussion of "who" whether its a rebbe, gadol, or lehavdel an apparent rasha is moot and pointless. Because the age of messiah will already be a part of the world, with said person Leading the nation. That was my point. Chap?

" i hope that was sarcastic"

It should be sarcastic. But it was in response to the suggestion that when someone blatantly disrespects a gadol/rebbe the said follower should not care. Obviously someone should care when their leader is dissed.

I have no desire to get involved in any of this but do not talk in derogatory terms about Rav Shach.

+1 as stated before. 
exactly the problem with this entire thread.  Every other post is trying to attack a fellow Jew.
I'm not going to lock this thread in case the OP wants to post his Rabbi's response, but let's refrain from any further attacks that don't have to do with clarifying the halachic position on the belief that someone who was niftar may be moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: gozalim on February 08, 2012, 01:36:21 AM
I'm not sure if this makes it better, but I think he said it b/c of the chashash that it may a mashichis minyan. So he was not technically banning the whole Chabad movement, but he was saying that there's enough of these ppl to make all of the minyanim a chashash.

doesn't really make it better.
he's still saying that a) meshichist = not Jewish -halachicly incorrect as well as severely misinformed and b) every Lubavitcher is chashash mishichist. c) the issue is sever enough to be Osur misofeik (also neged chezkas kashrus) and ultimately he's still saying "every Lubavitcher is Posul (Misafek)" [posul misafek is still posul.]
all this from someone that I'm assuming you- and he- are not haters
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 08, 2012, 02:50:27 AM
doesn't really make it better.
he's still saying that a) meshichist = not Jewish -halachicly incorrect as well as severely misinformed and b) every Lubavitcher is chashash mishichist. c) the issue is sever enough to be Osur misofeik (also neged chezkas kashrus) and ultimately he's still saying "every Lubavitcher is Posul (Misafek)" [posul misafek is still posul.]
all this from someone that I'm assuming you- and he- are not haters

keep in mind that this rav lives in israel, and its not beyond the realm of possibility that a majority are mashichis in israel
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 08, 2012, 03:01:36 AM
allow me to sharpen my first question

had the rebbe had a son, and he was the current rebbe, would this whole phenomenom exist?
what i am asking is azoi. is the belief that he is the mashiach more a reflection of his chasidim missing him and wanting him to return than it is their actually thinking he is the moshiach?
bc, i think that had he had a son who was a gadol as well, no one would be desiring and thinking that the rebbe was moshiach. ppl would have moved on as they have so many other times

interested in hearing ur thoughts, particularly chabad members
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 08, 2012, 04:13:23 AM
allow me to sharpen my first question

had the rebbe had a son, and he was the current rebbe, would this whole phenomenom exist?
what i am asking is azoi. is the belief that he is the mashiach more a reflection of his chasidim missing him and wanting him to return than it is their actually thinking he is the moshiach?
bc, i think that had he had a son who was a gadol as well, no one would be desiring and thinking that the rebbe was moshiach. ppl would have moved on as they have so many other times

interested in hearing ur thoughts, particularly chabad members
you are probably right. In theory, if the Rebbe had a Son or a son-in-law that were to take upon the nis'ius (becoming Rebbe) then i doubt anyone would say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. and im sure the other way around would also be true, that is the previous Rebbe was the last Rebbe, im sure people might have said that he's moshiach as well

but you have to look at a different point. The Rebbe made a very big stress a bunch of different times that now is Moshiach's times and we are so close - literally. and its up to us to push that last thing and bring Moshiach, and im sure the previous rebbe also spoke about Moshiach but none of the other 6 rebbeim spoke about it like the Rebbe.
that being said, and looking at the fact there was noone else to take over the Nesi'us, it became one thing that this is the last generation before Moshiach. and there were many other hints from sichos and ma'marim that this is the last generation before moshiach...i wont get into them now for argument sake..(unless this is not enough and you really want to)
 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 08, 2012, 08:45:01 AM
Been debating whether to jump in on this thread for a while now... Just couldn't resist this one:
if hitler yemach shemo was revealed as mashiach i would not accept him. (and-to everyone not specifically cbs- i am not trying to make any comparisons so dont bother yelling and i know that he is not qualified halachically etc.)

I say mclovin should be banned from MNF a la Hank Williams Jr!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 08, 2012, 09:41:07 AM
Been debating whether to jump in on this thread for a while now... Just couldn't resist this one:
I say mclovin should be banned from MNF a la Hank Williams Jr!
haha what a pity im not part of mnf. although if you want to start a ddf mnf league just to ban me its ok with me
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 08, 2012, 09:44:40 AM

The person has no baring in halacha once the "if" is fulfilled hence the discussion of "who" whether its a rebbe, gadol, or lehavdel an apparent rasha is moot and pointless. Because the age of messiah will already be a part of the world, with said person Leading the nation. That was my point. Chap?

" i hope that was sarcastic"

It should be sarcastic. But it was in response to the suggestion that when someone blatantly disrespects a gadol/rebbe the said follower should not care. Obviously someone should care when their leader is dissed.
 
+1 as stated before.
i think i understand what youre saying although i feel my answer to that still stands.

as to the sarcastic part, sorry i thought u were going on the part that they had a party when r shach was niftar
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 08, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
This "party" business is ridiculous.  And the rabbi ate on tisha b'av with a girl on his lap, it's easy to twist anything.

Chassidim partied when the Rebbe died thinking that moshiach would be coming.  We farbrenged in yeshiva (which most other people would call a party when they see the food and booze at these things) at every possible occasion, good and bad, happy and sad.  The point of these is to take lessons and grow spiritually through song and self-reflection.  It's not something a non-chosid would ever understand to be anything but bittul-torah.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on February 08, 2012, 11:01:32 AM
This "party" business is ridiculous.  And the rabbi ate on tisha b'av with a girl on his lap, it's easy to twist anything.

Chassidim partied when the Rebbe died thinking that moshiach would be coming.  We farbrenged in yeshiva (which most other people would call a party when they see the food and booze at these things) at every possible occasion, good and bad, happy and sad.  The point of these is to take lessons and grow spiritually through song and self-reflection.  It's not something a non-chosid would ever understand to be anything but bittul-torah.

+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmiel on February 08, 2012, 11:15:39 AM

i said what he did. i didnt make anything up. ---Example: i never said that he stole money or didnt keep shabbos etc... that would be saying bad things. but if someone did something wrong than im not adding to the fact that he did it by saying he did it.

why do u say everyone agrees that he is a gadol? (many people are just holding themselves back from saying anything IMHO)
and its sinas Chinum because of the way he portrayed the hate, and because he was the only one that said such stuff. - if his reasons were even half true, than im sure other people wouldve realized it and said something - and the way he said it with those words he sais, shows on something so horrible and disastrous, its something you would think on Hamas you would say. not on someone that a mass percentage of jewish people respected and many many non jews as well!
  more learned doesn't equal greater always.
I don't want to get involved in all this, but I can't help but say that the way you are talking about R' Schach is wrong. There have been many cases throughout our history where Gedolim argued (cartloads of Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim were burned and as mentioned earlier in this thread R' Yaacov Emden and R Yonasson Aibeshutz) and it was L'shem Shomayim. Obviously you won't agree with R' Schach if you are Chabad, but to say it was Sinas Chinum is wrong. He felt there were serious problems with Chabad and voiced them L'shem Shomayim, not because of Sinas Chinum. In the case of the Rambam, on the exact spot that they burned the Moreh Nevuchim, cartloads of Tanach, Talmud and other holy books were burned, thus vindicating the Rambam. My point is that each should go according to their mesorah and that G-d has His ways of figuring these things out. Btw none of this is an attack on Chabad, I personally think they do great things (kiruv and otherwise) and I have davened at their minyanim many times and benefited from Chabad houses; I have a lot of Hakoras Ha'tov to Chabad.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: shmuelb on February 08, 2012, 11:32:57 AM
I don't want to get involved in all this, but I can't help but say that the way you are talking about R' Schach is wrong. There have been many cases throughout our history where Gedolim argued (cartloads of Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim were burned and as mentioned earlier in this thread R' Yaacov Emden and R Yonasson Aibeshutz) and it was L'shem Shomayim. Obviously you won't agree with R' Schach if you are Chabad, but to say it was Sinas Chinum is wrong. He felt there were serious problems with Chabad and voiced them L'shem Shomayim, not because of Sinas Chinum. ... My point is that each should go according to their mesorah and that G-d has His ways of figuring these things out. Btw none of this is an attack on Chabad, I personally think they do great things (kiruv and otherwise) and I have davened at their minyanim many times and benefited from Chabad houses; I have a lot of Hakoras Ha'tov to Chabad.

+1 Please, everyone, stop calling OTHER PPL"S GEDOLIM names and accusing them of sinas chinum etc. There is a lot to say both ways but that is not going to change anything here. Have any of you ever spoke to Rav Shach?? Ever saw him in person? He had taanos and was and is revered by many many Yidden all aound the world. To say "more than the Rebbe" is irrelevant. I am not going to go into stats now, I do not know them but I do know that many parts of Klal Yisroel held of Rav Shach and did not hold of the Rebbe. Many held of both. Chabad holds of the Rebbe alone. There is no point for us to mix in to their machlokes. We must not castigate either of them.

As my mother likes to say, "If a child is doing something wrong, the parent does not LIKE to hear about it. The mother or father KNOW what their kid is doing but for a third person to come and talk about it is painful. So too, Hashem knows everything about the Rebbe and Rav Shach, much better than we know. Hashem can judge them. For us to talk about them is a disgrace and hurtful to the Shechina"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 08, 2012, 11:38:55 AM
To asd, jewda, and whoever else that obviously has negative views on the Rebbe. It is not a good idea to walk in to a satmar beis medraash and talk against the satmar Ruv or in to a Lakewood bm and talk against of R' Ahron. It's just not good sense to come here, a predominantly Chabad crowd and spew your shittos which really aren't anything new.  This topic was started as a serious discussion (i think) about different aspects relating to chabad and can be a very interesting and informative discussion. Please, lets try to keep it that way.
+1.

Discussion on the R' Shach and whatever he said about the Rebbe, the Holocaust, J.B. Soloveitchik, The Gerer Rebbe, R' Steinsaltz, and YU, etc, etc are OT for this thread. :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 08, 2012, 11:49:39 AM
+1.

Discussion on the R' Shach and whatever he said about the Rebbe, the Holocaust, J.B. Soloveitchik, The Gerer Rebbe, R' Steinsaltz, and YU, etc, etc are OT for this thread. :P

I didn't know there is a gerer rebbe story..?   :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 08, 2012, 12:36:37 PM
I don't want to pour any salt on the wounds here, however I had a rav (some 10k people in his kehilla), who himself is mainstream chabad (or so it looks like), and told a relative of mine not to step in the meshichisten minyan. (they were typically waiting outside to get passerby to complete their minyan).
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 08, 2012, 12:37:26 PM
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SuperFlyer on February 08, 2012, 12:38:32 PM
hard to comment without knowing the particulars of that story but I bet that this was said for personal or political (not halachik) reasons...

For a rav to boycott their minyan for political or personal reasons, would not be so nice...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on February 08, 2012, 01:23:06 PM
I think one thing that is helpful to remember is that THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT IN THIS WORLD.
Not any one person, or Rav even.  And while yes hopefully we all have people we can look up to for their standards and good deeds and it is a great thing to have a Rabbi or Rebbe to look up to and "follow" they too are not PERFECT.

         There has to be balance of setting higher standards while knowing that no one ALWAYS MAKES THE PERFECT DECISION OR SAYS THE PERFECT THING or ALWAYS goes the correct way in each scenario.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ash on February 08, 2012, 01:56:53 PM
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.


Very well written you should be a spokes person for Lubavitch... Yasher koach
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 08, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
Very well written you should be a spokes person for Lubavitch... Yasher koach
Lol...thank you :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 03:32:20 PM
Please provide proof to what you are saying (just like you wanted proof the other way around (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg182483#msg182483) otherwise please dont say it.)
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

but i do appreciate your brazenness. generally, its difficult (and a tad foolish) to be confident about something someone didnt say
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 08, 2012, 03:41:46 PM
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

Why would you want to keep something like that?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 03:47:18 PM
because this is not the first time ive heard the claim that he never spoke against r' shach. when the vid was posted, i knew it would rattle some peoples cage. i kept is so i dont have to hear that bs claim again
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 03:57:24 PM
i have a question.

i was just speaking to a friend of mine and he mentioned  that the rebbe once sang in public, "kein bakodesh chazisicha, liros UZI UCHVODI"

is this true?

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 08, 2012, 04:09:21 PM
Yes, it is. It's on tape.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Hudi on February 08, 2012, 05:23:54 PM
i have a question.

i was just speaking to a friend of mine and he mentioned  that the rebbe once sang in public, "kein bakodesh chazisicha, liros UZI UCHVODI"

is this true?

The words were "Liros nafshi uchvodi" and before anyone gets all trigger happy the Rebbe explained the song many times as being a two way street between us and hashem. Although the song is about us seeking out hashem there are times that hashem needs to seeks us out, wake us up and give us the strength to seek him out in return. In Chasidus it's referred to an "Esrusa De'leila"  loosely translated as an inspiration from above.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 08, 2012, 07:01:11 PM
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

but i do appreciate your brazenness. generally, its difficult (and a tad foolish) to be confident about something someone didnt say
This is completely off topic. Both sides have already agreed to stop the mud slinging etc. If you intend on pursuing this discussion of the rebbe and rav shach please create a new thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 08, 2012, 07:02:58 PM
This is completely off topic. Both sides have already agreed to stop the mud slinging etc. If you intend on pursuing this discussion of the rebbe and rav shach please create a new thread.

I don't think such a thread should be allowed. Go to ChabadTalk or some other forum, this is DansDeals.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 08, 2012, 07:14:33 PM
I don't think such a thread should be allowed. Go to ChabadTalk or some other forum, this is DansDeals.
but it could be dealing with the issue. :P

all kidding aside i agree though
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 08, 2012, 07:32:49 PM
I don't think such a thread should be allowed. Go to ChabadTalk or some other forum, this is DansDeals.
I don't want to disagree but this is just shmooze and if it's not against the T&C I don't see why someone can't post what they want. It may be pointless because this IS the wrong venue for such talk but to not allow it would be up to the mods.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 07:35:19 PM
This is completely off topic. Both sides have already agreed to stop the mud slinging etc. If you intend on pursuing this discussion of the rebbe and rav shach please create a new thread.
if you will notice, i was responding to a question directed to me.

i also wouldnt classify my post as of the mud slinging variety. all of my posts on the subject have been civil.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 08, 2012, 07:55:38 PM
if you will notice, i was responding to a question directed to me.

i also wouldnt classify my post as of the mud slinging variety. all of my posts on the subject have been civil.
1. Rav shach never should have been brought to this thread in the first place. So do two wrongs make a right? 2. I didn't say that you should not have responded to cbs. I said if you plan on pursuing this topic than you should start a new thread. 3.I said "mud slinging" that does not mean not in a civil way but rather bringing up something bad about someone. For example implying the rebbe called himself gd or what ever it was you were implying with your question that I very well could have misunderstood. 4. I said etc. meaning anything at all not having to do with the op's question didn't belong here.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 08, 2012, 08:10:13 PM
there was a video on youtube a while ago. it was basically a 20 minute rant against r' shach. it has since been removed. anticipating its removal, i downloaded it to my computer. its about 18mb. not sure how i can share.

but i do appreciate your brazenness. generally, its difficult (and a tad foolish) to be confident about something someone didnt say
very hard for me to believe that something like that ever happened. but if u say so, then i would like to ask you to send it to me if you dont mind.
u can upload to dropbox and send me a link or other ways theres to send videos - PM me if you're interested.
and just saying, that if you refuse to share then its kind of worthless that you just said there was a video and deleted bec. than theres no proof.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: AsherO on February 08, 2012, 08:18:44 PM
very hard for me to believe that something like that ever happened. but if u say so, then i would like to ask you to send it to me if you dont mind.
u can upload to dropbox and send me a link or other ways theres to send videos - PM me if you're interested.
and just saying, that if you refuse to share then its kind of worthless that you just said there was a video and deleted bec. than theres no proof.

If anyone can determine when that video was from, I'd appreciate that information as well.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 08, 2012, 08:24:30 PM
If anyone can determine when that video was from, I'd appreciate that information as well.
AsherO going ot  :o I believe the video he is referring to if when a messenger of rav shach asked the rebbe about not sleeping in the sukka. Or when the rebbe implied that rav shachs tefilin were not kosher. The rebbe never called him by name as far as I know
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 08:29:29 PM
i found a repost. here it is



remember, my point isnt that what the rebbe said about r' shach was on the same level as what r' shach said about the rebbe, i was only responding to this:
the Rebbe never ever said a bad word about him, and he even blessed him with long life! (he lived till 107).
which i pointed out was not true
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 08, 2012, 08:59:13 PM
For example implying the rebbe called himself gd or what ever it was you were implying with your question that I very well could have misunderstood.
yes, you misundertood. my intent was not to imply such a thing. i was merely trying to find out if what my friend told me was true. thats all
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: gozalim on February 09, 2012, 12:08:59 AM
AsherO going ot  :o I believe the video he is referring to if when a messenger of rav shach asked the rebbe about not sleeping in the sukka. Or when the rebbe implied that rav shachs tefilin were not kosher. The rebbe never called him by name as far as I know
20 minutes has got to be the sukkah question. while it may be heated no one is mentioned by name. IIRC the Rebbe was attacking the question as being provocational and spoke negatively about 'whoever' asked the question and attempted to stir up unrest. I believe if you watch the video the attack is more about the question.

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Avid Reader on February 09, 2012, 12:22:13 AM
I just want to say, we should all realize that we have alot more in common then we may think. We choose  - or were born into famileis that choose different paths in serving Hashem. I'd say most of us Lubab's were not Lubavitch going back very far. In my family alone, I come from very varied backgrounds. On one line I come from some Yichus'deke 'Gedoiley Hamisnadim. My grandmother "AH was born in Lithuania and never saw a Chasid before her late 20's. On another line I come from a German Torah Im Derech Eretz family, etc.

On the flip side, I'm aware of plenty of Litvaks who are related or are actuall direct descendants of Chasidim and Rebbe's.

We each have our way of serving Hashem. Serious disccusion is good, but let's keep it civil and respectful.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 09, 2012, 01:17:06 AM
I just want to say, we should all realize that we have alot more in common then we may think. We choose  - or were born into famileis that choose different paths in serving Hashem. I'd say most of us Lubab's were not Lubavitch going back very far. In my family alone, I come from very varied backgrounds. On one line I come from some Yichus'deke 'Gedoiley Hamisnadim. My grandmother "AH was born in Lithuania and never saw a Chasid before her late 20's. On another line I come from a German Torah Im Derech Eretz family, etc.

On the flip side, I'm aware of plenty of Litvaks who are related or are actuall direct descendants of Chasidim and Rebbe's.

We each have our way of serving Hashem. Serious disccusion is good, but let's keep it civil and respectful.

+1

We have enough external enemies, no need to create internal enemies as well
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 09, 2012, 01:39:04 AM
20 minutes has got to be the sukkah question. while it may be heated no one is mentioned by name. IIRC the Rebbe was attacking the question as being provocational and spoke negatively about 'whoever' asked the question and attempted to stir up unrest. I believe if you watch the video the attack is more about the question.

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars
I heard a nice pshat that the when the rebbe saw something or heard something he disagreed with, he did not mention the person who held that shitah by name, (in this case rav shach), because it wasn't him he had a problem with (he loved every jew), but rather the shitah. I didn't see this in a sefer, but the point is a true thing. That We need to realize that as Jews we all have one father in heaven and to bring moshiach as the rebbe said in that talk is to live in complete unity. In other words plus amillion to Avid Reader  ;D
Everyone has their own instrument that, when joined together, will bring the most beautiful, pure, and eternal symphony of all Moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 09, 2012, 01:50:25 PM
also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars
whats dollars?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 09, 2012, 02:57:52 PM
The Rebbe gave out dollars for ppl to give to tzedakah. It served two functions. In addition to the obvious (the mitzvah of tzedakah) it allowed chassidim (as well as tens of thousands of ppl from all walks of life) the opportunity to interact with the Rebbe one-on-one. (The Rebbe for the most part stopped giving yechidus - private audiences - when it became physically impossible to allot enough time for all the ppl who wanted to speak with the Rebbe.) Hence the massive lines - hours long - every Sunday in 770.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 09, 2012, 07:38:18 PM
so by dollars he meant private?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 09, 2012, 07:47:50 PM
so by dollars he meant private?
whats ur question exactly?
ppl would line on a get a 1 dollar be with a quick 2 word bracha. some would quickly ask their own bakoshos and the rebbe would give another bracha with another dollar. every person was something else. but in order to keep the line flowing the secretaries tried getting ppl  to move forward so u barely had time to ask (besides that the chassidim would never say a word)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 09, 2012, 07:56:56 PM
whats ur question exactly?
ppl would line on a get a 1 dollar be with a quick 2 word bracha. some would quickly ask their own bakoshos and the rebbe would give another bracha with another dollar. every person was something else. but in order to keep the line flowing the secretaries tried getting ppl  to move forward so u barely had time to ask (besides that the chassidim would never say a word)
20 minutes has got to be the sukkah question. while it may be heated no one is mentioned by name. IIRC the Rebbe was attacking the question as being provocational and spoke negatively about 'whoever' asked the question and attempted to stir up unrest. I believe if you watch the video the attack is more about the question.

also I'd be more surprised if there was something like that at farbrengen (public) as opposed to Dollars
i dont understand what he said in that line. asking if by dollars he meant private vs public. i couldnt really tell what whas going on in the video, ie where/when it happened
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on February 09, 2012, 07:59:28 PM
i dont understand what he said in that line. asking if by dollars he meant private vs public. i couldnt really tell what whas going on in the video, ie where/when it happened
oh i see. dollars was considered kinda private. the only thing is that there are videos of lots and lots of "dollar passings" - farbrengen was officially public
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: mclovin on February 09, 2012, 08:01:23 PM
oh i see. dollars was considered kinda private. the only thing is that there are videos of lots and lots of "dollar passings" - farbrengen was officially public
got it. thanks
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:00:02 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time. :)

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

let me first start off with, that i agree with some others here that since everyones got their own opinion etc..itll be very hard to have a normal conversation, and i also tried having conversations with people that fall into the category you're describing and in my eyes there is no use in trying to convince or even discuss opinions with them because the conversation wont go anywhere at all. (hours conversations i mean!)

i will now quote a few things that maybe i can clarify -and some things i wont discuss because some things ppl may take in the wrong way.
1st things first, there is no 2 Chabad Movements. There is one Chabad Movement. The categories you described can be said as "in the Chabad movement there are diff views/perspectives.

#1 - the only people that believe such a thing are and must be (very) crazy. that is against nature for something like that to be and many many people witnessed a levaya, and especially that the Rebbe's health situatuon in the last 2 years before '94 was grave and did not get any better. - i dont think i need to explain it really but if you believe it then you fall into my category of someone i refuse to discuss this matter with.

#2 - this is a tough matter to discuss, and true that most people (if not everyone that doesnt fall into Categoriy #1) believe this. so here is where the 2 views are: theres Meshichistim (we're not discussing #1 meshichistim) and "anti Meshichistim". the main difference is, if the guy will go around publicizing the paraphrase "yechi..." . He who does publicize yechi, does not believe that the rebbe is physically living, by saying Yechi he is pronouncing that the Rebbe is Moshiach and when he says he shall live forever it means, through his "children"/chassidim doing what he wanted from them and following in his path - it spiritually is making him live forever and there is no difference now that there was a physical concealment. and one should not think that  because he was niftar, that the rebbe is less holy and it wont help to ask brachos etc....(this concept is explained in chassidus in depth and length.) and this guy holds that this is what the Rebbe wanted when he said and made big campaigns that we should publicize the Coming Moshiach and how its so close, that we should tell people that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
The "Anti-meshichist" will will not publicize that the Rebbe is Moshiach (A.K.A Yechi) although he may beleive that in his heart, but that is nothing wrong because everyone can have their own belief that they keep to themselves. On the other hand he doesnt disagree with this that the Rebbe is spiritually living forever and by us doing and learning his torah etc.. keeps him "alive" (like ya'akov avinu lo meis). and he obviously will fulfill the campaign of the Rebbe to tell people Moshiach is near, but not discussing who it is, because that is not the point and it can cause conflict.

#3 - im not sure what u mean by embodiment of G-D. so if you will clarify that i can try to explain it.

Another point on #1, that mainly the people that say this stem from the Yeshiva Gedola in Tzfas. and they are a minority although they do make a very large noise, and they will not ever visit the Rebbe's kever for this reason! so that is off my Map.
there are plenty of people in US that practice #2 in both perspectives and regarding #1 those bochurim and few other people mainly come from Tzfas as stated above and they learn or live in Crown Heights becasue the want to be with the Rebbe in his shul!
regarding the Shlit"a , so besides the tzfatim that will obviously write that - so the Meshichistim in #2 will sometimes write that because they dont like to mention the Rebbe passed away because it shows on something less holy and since he's not physically here so people may take the wrong approach at it, so they write Shlit"a
as for the disturbing videos you see, those are tzfatim in #1 mainly, and some Meshichistim in #2 that want to still feel the way it was before '92 and they believe that any minute now the moshiach will come and the Rebbe will walk through the path and they want to be ready for it. but again its mainly #1.
True that in israel its much stronger there, and mainly thats because its easier to do it there because everyone is jewish and can understand whats going on. it practically makes no sense to do what they do in manhattan or else where where majority isnt jewish.
and there are many more tzfatim in israel which go crazy and make lound noises.
1. i think since the Rebbe made a huge campaign about moshiach in the later years and like no other rebbe has done, so it triggered somthing there, and since the Rebbe was so Great in the world  (even in the eyes of other Rebbe's and other chassidim) so it was something very special, and most people thought that since there was so much Moshiach talk etc.. that moshiach was coming then any minute, and couldnt take in the fact, (face the fact) that something like a passing away was possible at that state, and everyone then believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach. so when the passing came about there was a group of people that were dancing and happy because they said forsure moshiach is coming now and from there it spread.

2. Yes but in israel its more publicized

3. i answered that question above

4. i dont want to state my opinion in any of this (i tried to avoid it in this post) for the reason that it will start a major arguement and i dont like to discuss things that have no end to it. here im just stating Facts. - and all i can say is that #1 people have some issues

5. that i dont know and i just hope it doesnt go too much farther, because a lot of this is pushing people away from Chabad for no good reason and a bunch of stupidity.

i hope i clarified the situation for you, even though ive got much more to say but i dont want to discuss.
if you have any questions on this feel free to ask!

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:08:39 PM
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.


Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:12:22 PM
+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!
If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.
Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:22:05 PM
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:26:19 PM
I am loving the passion but as whYME suggested before can we please just keep to answering halachic questions. If anyone in this thread actually wants to accomplish anything let us have an orderly discussion of weather chabad is going against halacha or not. That is really the only thing that matters. Either its wrong or not because if its not wrong then to ask someone to justify a personal feeling that is inline with halacha is pointless and silly IMO.
Thanks JJ

I purposely kept the discussion away from a pure halachik discussion, b/c for every source A, someone will have source B. And it will simply cause a back n' forth that will arrive at no resolution. (It's one one of the beautiful yet frustrating aspects of the halachik process.)

I'm more interested in the sociological background and implications, as well as ppl's personal observations and experiences.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 07, 2013, 06:30:34 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful answers guys.
I've been meaning to read through the responses in more depth and follow up on them, but haven't gotten around to it. A few days home sick gives me that time. :)

And folks, keep the discussion respectful! Flame throwing isn't going to convince anyone, and only causes chillul hashem.

@CBS
I'll start with your first post since it was so clearly written.

The average non-meshichist would consider a strong meshichist a member of the same movement, or as a member of a deviant movement? After all, you write that category #1 is someone you wouldn't even talk with.

Also, I understand the concept of someone's influence extending beyond themselves and their lives. But if you truly believe the reason you wrote, isn't that almost a busha to the previous Rebbe's who aren't spoken of (or at least not to the same extent) in the same language? Why doesn't the Ba'al Hatanya merit having Yechi chanted about him?

You write that most of the ppl believing in #1 are from Tzfat. Due to the danger and the bad name they give Chabad, do the other Chabadniks actively challenge them on this? Meaning, do they try to keep them excluded from leadership roles, educational roles, PR roles, etc?

Thanks for your answers, and if you already answered any of my above questions in the subsequent discussions, I apologize.
that took a log time to answer! :)
Anyways...

They average non meshichist does not think of the meshichist as non chabad person or from another movement. he may think the guy is nuts. and i didnt say i wouldnt talk to that guy, all i said was i refuse to discuss this matter with such a person (the whole meshichist thing)

The reason why other Rabbeim dont have Yechi said about them is because they had Children and right when they passed away everyone knew who the next Rebbe would be so there was no reason to say yechi. The whole point of Yechi is to say and show how it doesnt end etc...so since the Rebbe didnt have children and there was no upcoming Rebbe after him (usually the child would) so people will say Yechi .

not necessarily most ppl that say yechi (or strong believers) come from Tzfas. i meant to say that there is a large yeshiva of about 400+ students there and since theyre young and loud and have lots of energy so they make a lot of noise. and many of those come to Brooklyn to study in 770 (the Rebbe's Shul) so ppl categorize them as tzfatim. but in any case, no one really challenges them, but on the other hand the anti meshechistim dont usually pay much attention to them - meaning they have different agendas - so it works out that way that they usually dont interact with each other
Regarding Chabad Shluchim you will see that in many places in India and in other countries as well (maybe few cities in america) there are Chabad houses that plaster Yechi all over and they call themselves Shluchim but they are not under the HQ of Chabad shluchim. - they make their own convention every year.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 07, 2013, 06:37:57 PM
Thanks CBS!
I have to re-read your latest post after I go through all the others.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lcyitz on January 07, 2013, 06:48:39 PM
@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist! :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 07, 2013, 07:11:45 PM
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:03 PM
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.

I have a side-question to ask, and I know that no one can give a statistical answer, so I'm simply looking for ppl's impressions.

If I gave you 3 categories:
1) Chabad
2) Other chasidish groups in the US
3) Yeshivish

Which group has the least problem of OTD (off the derech) with their children? Where would each group rate?

If I had to guess, I would say Chabad, but I'm not basing that off of anything concrete.
Start a new thread please.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 07, 2013, 07:43:28 PM
Thanks Dan

When you say that R. Chaikan and other shelichim are anti-meshichist, what do you mean?
That they are against the public chanting, or that they don't believe he will come back to life as moshiach?

When I mentioned category #3, it is based on what I had heard in discussions that some ppl actually believe that he is... if I had to compare, like Jesus, son of 'god'. (Not that I know anything about Christian theology, but it's the best comparison I could think of.)

But from what you write, it seems that besides for the ppl in Israel being louder (and mixes with a few crazies), that there aren't any fundamental differences btw the US and Israeli ppl?

Finally, why davka him as moshiach? I understand that when he was alive, you would believe/hope that he would prove to be moshiach, but once he died, why think it would be him as opposed to one of the previous rabbanim. Or a rishon, or gaon, or tana for that matter? Ie, once it's more of a b'dieved situation of returning to life to be moshiach, than why stick with the belief it's him?

Thanks again!
let me try to answer for him:
when he says they are anti he means to say that they dont publicize it or hold of publicizing it, and what they believe is a whole nother story. not everyone says what they beleif and people dont talk about it because its irrelevant and not important. but as Dan said earlier that most Anti's do believe that its very possible that he CAN be moshiach and im saying that some actually believe that.

i think that comparison you are making is totally off - people think of the Rebbe as a Pure Tzaddik and not even the meshichistim think he is the son of G-D.
look back in history at any great tzaddik, are you going to say the same thing about them, that ppl thought he was the son of G-D?

belief is belief. so there really isnt any difference between the israeli meshichist and the american meshichist. the only diff you may see is that one is louder then the next because in israel its more open.

i think your last question has been answered plenty in this thread as far as i can remember from so long ago. but in short, the Rebbe spoke so much about moshiach and said how this is the last generation before moshiach and there was plenty of basis to say he qualified to be moshiach, now that he passed away it doesnt take away anything from before besides the fact that he is not living physically with us, and as Dan said above there are plenty mkorois to say that moshiach can come from the dead. that said why should the lubavitchers think different just because he physically passed away. besides the fact the ppl think theyre rebbe will be moshiach etc   so if you understand why ppl thought that way prior to his passing then you should understand now that to the lubavitchers we dont look at it as any different besides for the physical part.

btw did you read through the whole back and forth posts in this whole thread?

If you don't mind me asking, does your stream of chasidism focus as strongly on mashiach as does/did Chabad? Is it common amongst your fellow chasidim to think of your rebbe as the likely moshiach?
my guess is not. but i may be wrong.

Good question.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the reasons he had given, as this was already 12 years ago.

And it's possible that he had a prior negative disposition to Chabad, but as an 18 yr old, this isn't s/t you think of looking into.
this is where the problem starts because many of these rosh kollels simply hate chabad and get it into the brain of these 18 yr olds and they walk away with a small "hatred"
though i have had plenty of friends in the past that have walked away the exact opposite and i was in yeshiva in israel at the time and it seemed they like chabad a lot (unless they were putting up a show :) ) incl. a sibling of yours if im not mistaken!

I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.
in my eyes it seemed that it wasnt as prevalent as the Rebbe's and the reason being .....i dont want to get into to start any fights so lets just say many stories ive heard about the rebbe and many stories that i know ppl to testify about the rebbe i have never heard and i dont think anyone has ever heard such stories by many gedolei Hador.

 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 07, 2013, 07:44:53 PM
@cbs you still talk to me and I'm a meshichist! :)
lol...you not that bad :P

@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
+1000, don't have any interest in hashing this over again.
+100
i had plenty of time back then but now...not so much but since u asked i answered. but i dont think this should continue
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 08, 2013, 02:21:24 AM
@Drago Where were you a year ago???  >:(  >:(  >:(

Who has patience for this again.
The thread lasted from Feb 6 to Feb 10.
That isn't exactly too long of a discussion period.

@JJ, Dan, CBS
I understand the hesitancy to continue the discussion. I'll ask the follow-up questions I have, and if no one chooses to answer, so be it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 09:31:56 AM
I've always wondered about this.
To other chasidim, are stories of miracles by your rebbe's also very prevalent?
To yeshivish/haredi litvaks, are stories of miracles from your gedolim also common? Were they common before 5 years ago?

And when I say 'miracles', I refer to super-natural events.
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 09:46:38 AM
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
Miracles, as in supernatural, or as in tefilla which was followed by a refuah?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 09:55:51 AM
Misnagdim have a shita against being into miracles performed by Gedolim, and will rarely talk about miracles, even though many have personally experienced miracles. I know of a few stories of miracles that occurred to my personal family, and it will be talked about by us between ourselves, maybe once a year, and will be repeated to other people, maybe once in ten years. It's how we're brought up.
What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 10:00:30 AM
Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 10:01:04 AM
What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 10:02:04 AM
+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.
we're getting influenced, American Jews are all getting influenced from each other, it's inevitable.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 10:03:26 AM
Miracles, as in supernatural, or as in tefilla which was followed by a refuah?
Not walking on water, but Docs giving op on a life, and a gadol guaranteeing a good outcome - a havtacha, things like that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 09, 2013, 10:37:52 AM
virtualy all chabad schools tell the kids "Daven nicely, make the rebbeh proud" of do mitzvos make the rebbeh proud etc. The rest of klal yisroel say "Daven nicely make Hashem proud etc".     So issue number three is real, widespread and serious. Thats all i wanted to point out on this topic.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: springles on January 09, 2013, 11:34:08 AM
virtualy all chabad schools tell the kids "Daven nicely, make the rebbeh proud" of do mitzvos make the rebbeh proud etc. The rest of klal yisroel say "Daven nicely make Hashem proud etc".     So issue number three is real, widespread and serious. Thats all i wanted to point out on this topic.
All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: henche on January 09, 2013, 11:39:16 AM
All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.

I tell my kids to daven as nice as they want to, and make me proud.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
What's interesting is that that's how Chabad Chassidim were through all the generations up until this past one. Also interesting is that it seems that slowly the Litvishe world is moving towards Mofsim stories too (judging by the Litvishe magazines)

+100
Would be interesting to have a separate thread to discuss why you think it's happening.
Same reason when Chabad introduced the "Kiruv" concept it was derided as bittul torah or worse but years later it caught on like wildfire (of course sweeping under the table who originated the concept, but no matter).

When something is reich and helps in our emunas hashem it will catch on.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 12:05:33 PM
All schools will also tell children to daven well and make their parents proud.
+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 12:30:44 PM
Not walking on water, but Docs giving op on a life, and a gadol guaranteeing a good outcome - a havtacha, things like that.
But I've always wondered about the times they say that, and it doesn't occur.
Not to be cynical, but if that happened, but the other 49 times they give chizuk it doesn't happen... which one will be publicized?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 12:52:07 PM
+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).
Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 12:53:35 PM
Same reason when Chabad introduced the "Kiruv" concept it was derided as bittul torah or worse but years later it caught on like wildfire (of course sweeping under the table who originated the concept, but no matter).

When something is reich and helps in our emunas hashem it will catch on.
Listen, serious props go out to Chabad for the kiruv movement. (As a complete side note. Did R. Carlebach have any connection w/ Chabad?)

But do stories of gedolim doing miracles help with our emunas hashem? I can see both sides of the coin.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 01:03:05 PM
Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)
I don't understand, if someones parents pass away he can't do anything to give them Nachas anymore?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 01:06:14 PM
I don't understand, if someones parents pass away he can't do anything to give them Nachas anymore?
touche
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 09, 2013, 01:08:14 PM
Except parents and God are 'living', and the Rebbe is deceased.
So once you're going to make s/o proud, either have it be s/o present in this world (the parents), or s/o not physically present in this world (God). [Plz don't start yelling about the terms I'm using. They're not meant to convey theological meaning.)
I see now what your main issue is with all this. It seems to me that you have a problem with the fact the chabad people talk about the rebbe in a present tense. For example "the rebbe wants us to go put teffilin on others" etc.. Now not always do people talk that way and when they do it doesn't mean that they are meshichist or think the rebbe is physically alive.
So if my assumption is correct, why does that bother you?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 02:00:32 PM
But I've always wondered about the times they say that, and it doesn't occur.
Not to be cynical, but if that happened, but the other 49 times they give chizuk it doesn't happen... which one will be publicized?
They don't make a havtacha to everybody, it's a rare occasion when they give a havtacha, at least with the gadol in the story in my family which I'm familliar with.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 03:03:43 PM
I see now what your main issue is with all this. It seems to me that you have a problem with the fact the chabad people talk about the rebbe in a present tense. For example "the rebbe wants us to go put teffilin on others" etc.. Now not always do people talk that way and when they do it doesn't mean that they are meshichist or think the rebbe is physically alive.
So if my assumption is correct, why does that bother you?
It's not my primary issue. I was simply responding to the previous posting.
It bothers me, but not too much.
Especially when I put it into context of how s/o may say that they're donating tzedaka in memory/honor of their parents. While this is different that the 'nachas' bit, it's at least on the same page.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 03:04:25 PM
They don't make a havtacha to everybody, it's a rare occasion when they give a havtacha, at least with the gadol in the story in my family which I'm familliar with.
If it's true, then fair enough.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 03:06:40 PM
It's not my primary issue. I was simply responding to the previous posting.
It bothers me, but not too much.
Especially when I put it into context of how s/o may say that they're donating tzedaka in memory/honor of their parents. While this is different that the 'nachas' bit, it's at least on the same page.

I've heard plenty of times people speaking about giving 'Nachas' to deceased parents/relatives.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 09, 2013, 03:59:44 PM
+1
Was going to say that. Saying Daven and make the Rebbe proud is not ascribing G-dliness to the Rebbe Ch"V rather to make someone dear to you proud (aside for the fact that you hear plenty of "make Hashem proud" too).
While there may be a concept of giving nachas to a deceased parent or rebbeh (its a complex sugia in berochos, whether the dead know at all whats happening in this world...) Never in mainstream judaism has any sect taught the children from a young age, constantly to make some human being proud. This is clearly strange, they basically act like they are serving two gods, if you think about it. ..
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2013, 04:09:42 PM
While there may be a concept of giving nachas to a deceased parent or rebbeh (its a complex sugia in berochos, whether the dead know at all whats happening in this world...) Never in mainstream judaism has any sect taught the children from a young age, constantly to make some human being proud. This is clearly strange, they basically act like they are serving two gods, if you think about it.
Typical brainwashed misnagdishe BS repeating party lines.  A Rebbe-Chosid relationship is what misnagdim fought centuries ago thinking it wasn't mainstream judaism.  This is nothing new.
400 years later, are chasidim really the biggest threat to mainstream judaism?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 04:16:31 PM
Never in mainstream judaism...
True only if you don't consider Chassidism in general to be mainstream Judaism...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
Typical brainwashed misnagdishe BS repeating party lines.  A Rebbe-Chosid relationship is what misnagdim fought centuries ago thinking it wasn't mainstream judaism.  This is nothing new.
400 years later, are chasidim really the biggest threat to mainstream judaism?

Enough bickering.  Next flaming post earns a free suspension.
Practice what you preach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 09, 2013, 04:36:03 PM
True only if you don't consider Chassidism in general to be mainstream Judaism...
No other chasidus do any actions to make a deceased human proud, they make a yhoutzeit seuda and thats it. maybe learn mishnayos.
Its one thing to follow teaching of a rebbe who teaches us HOW to serve one god.- This is normative chasidus and yiddishkeit.
 Not actually to serve the rabbi.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 04:37:53 PM
No other chasidus do any actions to make a deceased human proud, they make a yhoutzeit seuda and thats it. maybe learn mishnayos.
Its one thing to follow teaching of a rebbe who teaches us HOW to serve one god.- This is normative chasidus and yiddishkeit.
 Not actually to serve the rabbi.
Read in your previous post you didn't mention anything about deceased...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 09, 2013, 04:41:31 PM
Ok,  I dont wanna get get shlept into this whole debate... I love all jews. Peace
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 09, 2013, 04:45:42 PM
Same here I actually promised myself I would not answer your next post but hey who can resist in the face of such love...  :) ;) :D ;D :-*
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
Practice what you preach.
Love it.  Accuse tens of thousands of your fellow jews, myself included, of being heretics.  Get angry when they dare respond in kind.

Not actually to serve the rabbi.
Serve him? Really now? This is the same twisted brainwashed garbage that led me to prematurely leave CLE and skip a grade to switch to a Chabad mesivta in the first place.

Lubavitchers continue to do what the Rebbe wanted because he was a holy man and he helped us connect with Gd, just like any other chasidim.

The fact that he isn't alive anymore (and didn't have kids) doesn't affect his vision or our desire to fulfill that vision, thereby giving him nachas in heaven.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 05:02:10 PM
@Non-Lubavitch chasidim

Would you say (from what you know) that Chabad has a closer relationship with their Rebbe than your movement has with yours?
It's a tough question since they are one of the only major movements with no living Rebbe that still thrives, so it's not an even playing field, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
(The only other one I can think of is Breslov, but they're a different story. Any others?)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2013, 05:04:58 PM
Dynasties without an active leader but with thousands of followers besides Chabad and Breslov?
I don't think such a thing exists.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 09, 2013, 05:12:12 PM
Dynasties without an active leader but with thousands of followers besides Chabad and Breslov?
I don't think such a thing exists.
Didn't think so.
Breslov appears to be different b/c they haven't had a titular leader in some time. For Chabad, it's a more recent phenomenon.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ash on January 09, 2013, 09:07:24 PM
Good Times Drago ................

you could still daven at a chabad shul definitely one of the more welcoming shuls around the world its a shame that your teacher told you not to go cause your missing out ..........
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 09, 2013, 11:53:29 PM
Love it.  Accuse tens of thousands of your fellow jews, myself included, of being heretics.  Get angry when they dare respond in kind.
Who accused - me? I was just telling you to stop cursing someone out for being brainwashed etc. if you don't let harsh language on the forums.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 10, 2013, 12:04:25 AM
400 years later, are chasidim really the biggest threat to mainstream judaism?
Obviously not, that doesn't necessarily man it's right.

But what are you complaining about. One of the best things that happened to chassidus and partially what originally gave it staying power were the attacks from the misnagdim
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 10, 2013, 01:49:53 AM
Good Times Drago ................

you could still daven at a chabad shul definitely one of the more welcoming shuls around the world its a shame that your teacher told you not to go cause your missing out ..........
I've since moved, but when I was still in CLE, I took advantage of their mikvah, and an early minyan I davened with used their sanctuary on simachas torah.

Interestingly, the yishuv I live on now, had an interesting chabad story from a few yrs back.
The local chabad was becoming increasingly meshichist, so the shul Rav, who was against it, closed down the chabad so he could get rid of the group. It's since been reopened w/o those ppl, who started their own minyan elsewhere.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 10, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
Obviously not, that doesn't necessarily man it's right.

But what are you complaining about. One of the best things that happened to chassidus and partially what originally gave it staying power were the attacks from the misnagdim

The attacks from misnagdim resulted in the deaths and imprisonments of too many... hardly something to cheer for. Those were dark days, may Jews never bring such times on each other again.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 10, 2013, 11:18:03 AM
may Jews never bring such times on each other again.
+100

It's unfortunate that we now witness divisiveness in both the misnagid and chasidish communities.
(Satmer vs. Satmer, or the Ponevich / R. Shteinmann-R. Aurbach issues) So incredibly sad... 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 10, 2013, 11:24:25 AM
+100

It's unfortunate that we now witness divisiveness in both the misnagid and chasidish communities.
(Satmer vs. Satmer, or the Ponevich / R. Shteinmann-R. Aurbach issues) So incredibly sad...

When Jews stand strong together, we can overcome anything.. the opposite is unfortunately also true
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Mimi K. on January 12, 2013, 11:30:36 PM
Lamdan has 770 posts.  :o :o
that misnagid better post something fast or he might freeze that way!  :P :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 13, 2013, 12:53:19 AM
Lamdan has 770 posts.  :o :o
that misnagid better post something fast or he might freeze that way!  :P :P
::)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 13, 2013, 10:29:52 AM
Posting in just shmooze isn't going to help you.  You will stay at 770 :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: trying123 on January 13, 2013, 10:54:52 AM
Just to add a line i heard a good thought,
How is it tht the vilner goen tht was by all means a ball ruach hakodesh and so was the bal hatanye a bal ruach hakodesh, how come they couldn't see eye to eye and know which way is right.
The answer is because they had ruach hakodesh they both where able to see 200 years ahead in time, the groo looked ahead and saw wht chasidus in our days will look like, he couldn't take it, and fought it with al his strength, and the alter rebbe saw the way misnagdim will look like today so he kept on to his derech trying to save the future ???
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2013, 11:16:19 AM
Sorry, but Judaism today (and even "misdagsdim") without Chassidus would look very very different.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 11:53:45 AM
there no such movement as Misnagdim. Today the non chasidic jews are just plain regular jews as we were 500 years ago, just like it was in the times of the reshonim, we didnt change neither do we think its necessary to improve the derech that Rashi had for eg.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2013, 11:54:42 AM
Today the non chasidic jews are just plain regular jews as we were 500 years ago, just like it was in the times of the reshonim, we didnt change neither do we think its necessary to improve the derech that Rashi had for eg.
-1,000.  You need to brush up on your history.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 12:03:16 PM
there no such movement as Misnagdim. Today the non chasidic jews are just plain regular jews as we were 500 years ago, just like it was in the times of the reshonim, we didnt change neither do we think its necessary to improve the derech that Rashi had for eg.
Same same but different.... very different.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 13, 2013, 01:03:17 PM
-1,000.  You need to brush up on your history.

Same same but different.... very different.

Can you folks enlighten us history challenged ppl?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 01:08:43 PM
Can you folks enlighten us history challenged ppl?
Judaism today is VERY different from ANY form of Judaism practiced even 100 years ago, never mind the days of Rashi and the Rishonim....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 13, 2013, 01:23:07 PM
Judaism today is VERY different from ANY form of Judaism practiced even 100 years ago, never mind the days of Rashi and the Rishonim....
You mean the majority of Jews don't work on farms and if they are fortunate know how to daven? And musar never happened? Here I thought hashkafa was the same as rashi... Even he was against internet. *end annoyed sarcasm*
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 13, 2013, 02:50:54 PM
Posting in just shmooze isn't going to help you.  You will stay at 770 :D
I love 770, It's gematria bais moshiach!!  ;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 02:59:36 PM
Judaism today is VERY different from ANY form of Judaism practiced even 100 years ago, never mind the days of Rashi and the Rishonim....
Really? in which way?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 13, 2013, 03:27:40 PM
Really? in which way?
I've read in the past that Chareidi Judaism is as much of a modern reaction to society changes as is Modern Orthodoxy.
E/t adapts to the times, just in different fashions.

But regardless, I digress...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 13, 2013, 03:32:42 PM
Really? in which way?
You mean the majority of Jews don't work on farms and if they are fortunate know how to daven? And musar never happened? Here I thought hashkafa was the same as rashi... Even he was against internet. *end annoyed sarcasm*
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 04:04:10 PM

Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 13, 2013, 04:14:51 PM
Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
postbabypost!!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2013, 04:53:53 PM
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

L'chaim.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 13, 2013, 05:03:54 PM
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

L'chaim.

Very well said.

I always feel as though Chassidus began to help being people together and all it does now a days is split people apart.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 13, 2013, 05:06:00 PM
Great post Dan.
I have to ask what you mean with the following.

something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

What was it about the rashbi that set him apart from the other rabbanim at the time?
And not to cast aspersions, but doesn't the gemora say that when he came out of the cave, he was unable to understand how ppl could work and not learn, and as a result, he would have been dangerous to the world? (very rough contours of the story, and I know that he recanted later on)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 13, 2013, 05:07:17 PM
I always feel as though Chassidus began to help being people together and all it does now a days it split people apart.
It's a problem with all movements that become too comfortable. They need to find an outlet for their energy, and often, it goes into self-destructive behavior.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 05:15:12 PM
Great post Dan.
I have to ask what you mean with the following.

What was it about the rashbi that set him apart from the other rabbanim at the time?
And not to cast aspersions, but doesn't the gemora say that when he came out of the cave, he was unable to understand how ppl could work and not learn, and as a result, he would have been dangerous to the world? (very rough contours of the story, and I know that he recanted later on)

I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 05:18:01 PM
"The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants."

These concepts are all great but where not nischadesh by the chassidim, Dovid hamelech requested that tehilim should have the value of negoim and ohalos, Teshuva meahava is a posuk in the torah, as is serving hashem out of love.
What exactly Chassidus is about and why it came about is a very deep and complex topic. Most Chassidim will not be able to sum up what chassidus is if you corner them...
The point I want to bring out is that the next time you see a chabadsker say "missnaged" and then spit in disgust, remember that until the chassidus movement started all our ancestors were Just simple Jews and not part of any specific movement. Today the non chassidim are just doing their thing and have no interest in hating anyone. We all live in peace and love of all Jews. Since the times of the chofetz chaim there has been peace.
 (Unless you get up in their face that is..)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2013, 05:20:25 PM


These concepts are all great but where not nischadesh by the chassidim, Dovid hamelech requested that tehilim should have the value of negoim and ohalos, Teshuva meahava is a posuk in the torah, as is serving hashem out of love.
What exactly Chassidus is about and why it came about is a very deep and complex topic. Most Chassidim will not be able to sum up what chassidus is if you corner them...

That is what Chassidim have been telling their Misnagdim for years, "We were not Mechadesh anything, we just revived some of the things which were long forgotten"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 05:26:27 PM
Oh, Kum baya  ;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2013, 05:30:00 PM
That is what Chassidim have been telling their Misnagdim for years, "We were not Mechadesh anything, we just revived some of the things which were long forgotten"
+1,000,000

The point I want to bring out is that the next time you see a chabadsker say "missnaged" and then spit in disgust, remember that until the chassidus movement started all our ancestors were Just simple Jews and not part of any specific movement. Today the non chassidim are just doing their thing and have no interest in hating anyone. We all live in peace and love of all Jews. Since the times of the chofetz chaim there has been peace.
Spit in disgust? I've never seen that.

And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 13, 2013, 05:35:58 PM


To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

+100


        At the end of the day there is hate and intolerance towards people who live their lives different than yourself.
Whether it be Lubavitch, Yeshivish, Chassidish, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Charedi, Daati, etc.

And even within those groups themselves you have different "groups" of people hating on each other for their differences.  And it's all in the name of religion but honestly it's not even all about religion at all.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 05:44:52 PM
You will never see normal litvishe yidden showing hate today towards chassidim in general.
Did Chabad and the rebbe do anything to earn disrespect is a whole other story.
I know that on this particular topic we both have very strong feelings so I dont want to go there.
Btw, In your case as a child in school, your rebbyim should have shown more sensitivity knowing that they had a talmid fro a chabadsker home in the class. Indeed it must have been painful and confusing for you at the time, I can only imagine.
 Hopefully by now you can appreciate that there are many people who just will never come to terms with the chabadsker rebbeh and the negative thing they think about him. On this we will just disagree.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 13, 2013, 06:43:41 PM
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple.  This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

L'chaim.
Dan ע"ד :)


And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

apparantly over the years things got way better though, since i went to the same school and never had an issue from kids or rabbeim, if anything they respected it. - my 4th grade teacher even added the Rebbe to the "rabbeim pins" he used to make, when i came to the class :)
and until today if i ever meet the principals etc..they re very respectful.
on the other hand i think the otehr litvishe school down the block had some problems with chabad.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 13, 2013, 07:25:08 PM
+100


        At the end of the day there is hate and intolerance towards people who live their lives different than yourself.
Whether it be Lubavitch, Yeshivish, Chassidish, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Charedi, Daati, etc.

And even within those groups themselves you have different "groups" of people hating on each other for their differences.  And it's all in the name of religion but honestly it's not even all about religion at all.
Sad but true.

Btw, In your case as a child in school, your rebbyim should have shown more sensitivity knowing that they had a talmid fro a chabadsker home in the class. Indeed it must have been painful and confusing for you at the time, I can only imagine.
 Hopefully by now you can appreciate that there are many people who just will never come to terms with the chabadsker rebbeh and the negative thing they think about him. On this we will just disagree.
Why should rabayim have been more sensitive b/c a lubab was in the class?
Truth is at that point my father was not yet a full blown lubab and so they probably had no idea, but why should L"H and making fun of tzadikim only apply in front of people who revere them?

Yes it was painful, but I moved on.  I don't bear any ill will and it's not something that ever comes up in my daily life.  It's threads like these that are the only place it comes up.

But the fact that there among the people who hate Chabad, 99% of them have been brainwashed from hearing things that have been so twisted (as quite frankly it seems that you are) and untrue by people with an agenda that I just feel bad that they were mekabel such loshon harah...
Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person :)


Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 13, 2013, 07:29:12 PM
Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person :)
thats when all the good bull shoves happen at chabad (in cle) :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 13, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
You will never see normal litvishe yidden showing hate today towards chassidim in general.
-100
They are surely more tolerated but they get made fun of plenty
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 08:30:03 PM
Sad but true.
Why should rabayim have been more sensitive b/c a lubab was in the class?
Truth is at that point my father was not yet a full blown lubab and so they probably had no idea, but why should L"H and making fun of tzadikim only apply in front of people who revere them?

Yes it was painful, but I moved on.  I don't bear any ill will and it's not something that ever comes up in my daily life.  It's threads like these that are the only place it comes up.

But the fact that there among the people who hate Chabad, 99% of them have been brainwashed from hearing things that have been so twisted (as quite frankly it seems that you are) and untrue by people with an agenda that I just feel bad that they were mekabel such loshon harah...
Maybe come by for a shabbos some time and we'll hash it out in person :)
:)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 14, 2013, 01:50:57 AM
I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.
Agreed, but was that such a revolutionary idea at the time?
After all, many if not most of the rabbanim in the gemara held jobs and interacted with the public. What set Rashbi apart.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 10:37:25 AM
I think your 2 questions answer each other: The story goes as follows, after 12 years in the cave Eliyahu told Rashbi and his son to go out, when they went out they couldn't bear the sight of people "מניחין חיי עולם ועוסקין בחיי שעה" ("leaving the (source of) permanent life for the temporary one"), as a result wherever they would look would burn. A Bas Kol told them "If you have come out to destroy my world, better go back in", they went in for another year and this time when they came out "every place Elazar would burn, Rashbi would heal" I.E. He learned his lesson that you can serve Hashem while being involved in the world.

That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 10:38:18 AM
That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.
+1 thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 11:12:06 AM
In the time after Shabtai Tzvi (someone who tried abolishing the torah and its mitzvos, so please don't make idiotic comparisons), Jewry was in a funk.  There were the great learners, but most Jews were very simple, unlearned, and considered to be totally worthless by the learning class.

The chiddush of chassidus was that every single Jew is precious and loved by Hashem as a diamond, something that had been completely forgotten from the time of the rashbi until the middle ages.

The Chasidic way taught the value of the tehilim of a simple jew was as valuable to hashem as the learning of a gaon. 
That teshuva didn't have to come from fear of Gd and Hell but from love of Gd. 
That what we do shouldn't just be for Gan Eden and personal reward, but out of pure love for hashem and wanting to do what He wants.

This eventually led to the Lubavitch mivtzoim movement which caused such hatred of chabad that hadn't been seen in some time.  At least until the "velt" saw how successful it was and wanted it for their own.  And yes, many other Chasidic philosophies became a part of litvisher thinking as well.

There is no wrong way to serve hashem as long as you're following shulchan aruch, though that's not to say we don't have what to learn from each other.

But these witch hunts and unsubstantiated sinas chinum are the same thing that destroyed the 2nd temple. This hate of lubavitchers, even if it's only externally displayed in a joking manner, among the litvisher velt needs to end already.

Surely if Jews would just get along we would merit to be reunited with a 3rd temple.  And yes, that will be together with whatever leader Gd decides is the right one.  If Gd picks one and it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt somehow I think we'll all manage to accept His decision ;)

L'chaim.
I don't think calling Reb Shach, our gadol hador, derogatory names is gonna help litvaks overcome their sinas "chinam". BTW, I personally don't hate Lubavitchers, I honestly love them, I just have some major problems with their ideology, but it's pointless to discuss those issues, I'm not changing anyones mind either way.


BTW, read the Alter Rebbe's children's hakdama to Shulchan Aruch Harav, ( I happen to have read it this past shabbos), take out shneur zalman and put in eliyahu, and you would think the Gra's children wrote it. It's unbelievable the emphasis he made on Torah!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 14, 2013, 01:08:07 PM
And I went to litvisher school.  I saw the rabbeim joke excitedly when the Rebbe died.
I was harassed for being a lubavitcher by both students and rabbeim alike, told how the only torah true derech would be to go to a litvisher yeshiva.  How chabad is the closest religion to judaism, etc, etc.

To claim that the velt has no hate at all of chabad is laughable.

Do you know from your parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 01:09:28 PM
Do you know from you parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?
No difference. In the 70s and 80s it was Kiruv and Mivtzoim.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
Do you know from you parents or older friends if these issues existed back in the 70's and 80's, or did it just begin in the 90's in correlation with the rise of the 'vocal meshichists'?
It most definitely existed then as well.  Anti-Chabad sentiment is very ingrained.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 14, 2013, 01:12:14 PM
That takeaway line is very misleading. Rashbi still held that one is required to learn day and night, and Hashem will provide. Better stated perhaps for your or Dan's point is that when he came out and met the old man who was taking 2 bundles of hadssim l'kavod Shabbos, one k'neged zachor and one k'neged shamor, he gained an appreciation for the 'simple' Jew and their love of mitzvos. The difference being that the 'lesson learned' was not k'neged his shita in Brachos (35b) that one is required to learn day and night, all of the time, but rather k'neged the first part of the story where his eyes burned up everything he looked at.
I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 14, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
No difference. In the 70s and 80s it was Kiruv and Mivtzoim.
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 01:40:59 PM
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?
Yes, No. Go figure...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 03:53:20 PM
I think that is but one approach. I recall learning a different one recently, but I have the memory of a sieve.
I'll try to find it.
Agreed, but was that such a revolutionary idea at the time?
After all, many if not most of the rabbanim in the gemara held jobs and interacted with the public. What set Rashbi apart.

Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:02:32 PM
Was the 'yeshivishe oilam' against kiruv? Are they today?
Don't trust what Lubavitchers say about Litvaks. Ask an honest Litvak.

They were against certain aspects of Kiruv (mingling etc.) but that feeling has definitely been more moderate lately.
The feelings against Lubavitch's actions and ideology definitely existed even between the World Wars, but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 14, 2013, 04:03:15 PM
Am I understanding this correctly to mean you're reading into the story that Rashbi took a job after this maaseh and embraced hanheg bahen minhag derech eretz? If so I'd be very curious to hear a source.

The machlokes between R' Yishmael and Rashbi as to whether one can/should work for a living or learn all day and rely that Hashem will provide from him is recorded in Meseches Brachos. To my (very limited) knowledge no miforshim learn that the maaseh brought down in Meseches Shabbos uproots Rashbi's shitah.
Nothing about him accepting a job, but a change in his shitta. :)
I'll try to find it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:05:16 PM
but the really strong feelings only started after the Rebbe/Chassidim went messianic.
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:06:30 PM
It most definitely existed then as well.  Anti-Chabad sentiment is very ingrained.
Stop trying to paint the Anti- Chabad sentiment as Sinah or Sinas Chinam, even if it makes you feel more comftorable. The sentiment is because of major problems the Litveshe have with Chabad's hashkafa and actions.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:10:01 PM
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
From who? I hang around older Chashuve Litveshe Rabbanim all day, believe it or not some of them are open minded and honest, and they know the history very well. They are not trying to defend themselves, in fact they would rather if the Chofetz Chaim was as against Chabad as they are, they're just saying the facts. Don't -1 a field you're simply not qualified to talk about - litveshe history.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:10:14 PM
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chabad chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.   The rest is just built on top of that.
And yes, it has been going on in America since the rabbeim came here.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:15:42 PM
Those concerns were addressed earlier in this thread.  There's plenty of halachic basis to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead.
But to pretend that this hatred began in the 1990s is patently and deceivingly false.  I've spoken to older chassidim who were around, this stuff has been going on since the time of the printing of the Tanya and feuds with the Vilna Gaon.  The rest is just built on top of that.
That may be the lubavitcher view of the litveshe sentiment, but it's pure BS (to quote you). It's not hatred, the word "hatred" just makes you feel comfortable, mature litvacks do not hate lubavitchers, maybe the kids in your elementary school did, but that's how kids think. It's a strong ideological opposition, a very very strong ideological opposition, if you want to preceive that as hatred, go ahead. I am a kalte litvak, from a crowd that has strong ideological opposition to lubavitch, but I love you - Dan, like a brother from another mother (mushy). 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:17:45 PM
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:21:53 PM
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 14, 2013, 04:22:38 PM
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a lubavitchers ideology while loving the person?
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate?
Ohavei Hashem sinu RA - doesn't say Rasha (I'm not cha"v calling you a Rasha). Anyways it's hard to HATE an ideology, you just disagree strongly with it. What's the litvaks problem with Lubavitch's ideology?, I'm frankly not interested into getting in to that, it will just boil your blood and I'll never convince you. Anyways I suspect you know what our disatisfaction is, you just disagree with it.
I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?

ETA- your statement that Dan can't talk about litvish history is silly. 1. He is talking about chabad history and its dealings with others. 2. It's like any history if your not greek you can't talk about the history of greece?  :o 3. If neither of you were there you'd have the same authority to talk about it as you please. 4. History always has 2 sides. And even when something happening the 2 sides see it different, so could be your both right just from different perspectives.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 04:25:59 PM
He said he doesn't hate, he's opposed.

This thread has changed a lot the past few pages. Maybe I'll join in.

@Lmadan when the litvish people in the times of the gra beat up chassidim that wasn't hate? I don't know about blood boiling, but did you read this whole thread?
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate. And do we really have to talk about something we're clueless about like the fights 200 years ago. let's talk about the last 50 years - where we're actually not clueless.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 14, 2013, 04:28:13 PM
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
See above edit.

A tzadik is beis din? Please show me a source for beating someone up, and how it applies to chassidim. Also did you read this whole thread?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:30:34 PM
When Hashem punishes a sinner is it hate? I wasn't there, but if it was a Tzaddik that beat up a chossid - then it wasn't hate but trying to stop someone who he preceived was ruining klal yisrael. If it was a Rasha - it was pure hate.
Wow, what a philosophy.  So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 14, 2013, 04:40:11 PM
Working on farms has nothing to do with religion. Knowing how to daven? sadly even today hundreds of thousands of jews dont know how.
I was talking about the normal non chasidic frum jews of today, they are definitely not part of any musser movement. Just as Rashi was not part of a movement or anyone els until ~300 years ago.
The point was no movement, Just keeping torah and shulchan oruch according to the unbroken chain of mesorah.
I believe that is what orthodox Judaism is today. But there are many many other aspects to Judaism not encompassed in one mesorah, for example shulchan aruch is a new invention. It seems like you answered your own questions throughout this thread with every question you asked, all you have to do is read it differently. Chassidus doesn't bring a new religion, it stresses certain aspects and explains others. There are hundreds of sforim explaining what chassidus is, and to "corner" a chossid and demand an explanation is a bit silly.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 06:10:44 PM
Care to explain what exactly is the "very very strong ideological opposition."
And how do you differentiate between hating a secular jew's ideology while loving the person?
FTFY
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 06:12:50 PM
Wow, what a philosophy. So now you're putting "tzaddikim" on the level of Gd.  After all they both find the ability and right to punish sinners, and even without hating them!
It just can't be that they were, wait for it, wrong. Or acting beyond and against what the torah requires.

Same goes for the litvishers that told lies to the russian government about previous Rebbeim being spies and traitorous to the Russians, that got them thrown into jail and facing death sentences.
I'm sure that's justified in your eyes as well.  After all this is a fight for Judaism and that must be done even if protecting it means violating torah concepts.  Oh wait a second.  That's what Shabtai Tazvi held.
Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 06:31:42 PM
FTFY
J
ust to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?

Are you accusing me of being Lubavitch?  :P
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 06:55:48 PM

Just to be clear, you're equating a Lubavitcher's ideology to that of a non-frum Jew?
Now you've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt just how brainwashed you are.
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s. Gdly, yes, as are other tzadikim and indeed every Jew.
1. I'm not equating a secular jew with a lubavitcher, I'm just explaining how you can be very strongly against an ideology but still love a person.
2. I was joking!! Thus the  :P .  This topic is obviously so sensitive to you that you didn't realize I was joking.

Believe it or not, hot blooded Lamdan is going to now tell chilled calm Dan - Dude, CHILL OUT!  :) ;) :D ;D :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 05:43:11 AM
-1.  Neither I nor you were around, but I've heard the first hand accounts and you're simply wrong.
This may help you build your case, although I haven't read it yet.
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/brisker-wikleaks-b-o-m-b-part-ii.html

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 05:55:59 AM
Nobody thinks the Rebbe was Gd, cv"s.
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 09:02:41 AM
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 09:07:05 AM
I know this is obvious to some but I dont know if chabadskers are aware, many are still blaming missnagdim for putting him in jail and hating him C"V, so il just let you know.
Today the Shulchan Oruch Harav is one of the foundations of pesak for all of klall yisroel. The Mishna Berura is basically based on the shulchan oruch harav. He is quoted openly on every other page and the M"B seems to generally go with the Gra"z's understanding in many many sugias.
Most of the chassidic tales are in fact just "chassidic tales" and should be taken with ten pounds of salt.
What's the connection between the 2? ::)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 09:09:51 AM
What's the connection between the 2? ::)
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 09:25:28 AM
I believe that he is and always was greatly respected. Someone mentioned that todays non chassidim hate chabad just like they hated the alte rebbeh..
The fact that the Rebbe was arrested twice is well documented. The fact that it was a Messirah by Missnagdim is also well documented. The original Messirah papers are still around and they have been published extensively.
The fact that LATER people realized the Alter Rebbe's greatness not only in Chassidus but also in 'Nigleh' only highlights a point made earlier; that if the leaders of the Missnagdim in THAT generation would have done their due duty of ושאלת ודרשת וחקרת היטב it would have saved much Tza'ar and Ogmas Nefesh for generations to come.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 09:28:36 AM
...and actually you do raise a good point! Starting from approximately the days of the Tzemach Tzedek, the Hisnagdus has pretty much died down, it was only during the WWII and subsequent events that certain individuals felt a need to bring it back up ved"l
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:57:08 AM
Again, my understanding from talking to a tzfat guy is that there are some ppl up there who do equate the two. And not in the manner we would.


You managed to find a nut. There are nuts in every sect btw thought Tzfat does seem to be blessed disproportionately.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 10:01:05 AM
that if the leaders of the Missnagdim in THAT generation would have done their due duty of ושאלת ודרשת וחקרת היטב it would have saved much Tza'ar and Ogmas Nefesh for generations to come.
do you really think that you, or any other lubavitcher, including the rebbe when he was alive, is capable of judging how the gaon conducted himself?   really?       would you like to offer some of your insights on rashi and the ramban next?  or maybe rashbi?          stick to the last 50 years where people can actually pretend to have an understanding of what went on.   
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 10:05:46 AM
do you really think that you, or any other lubavitcher, including the rebbe when he was alive, is capable of judging how the gaon conducted himself?   really?       would you like to offer some of your insights on rashi and the ramban next?  or maybe rashbi?          stick to the last 50 years where people can actually pretend to have an understanding of what went on.   
No I do not think I can judge people who lived 200 years ago (i can't even judge people who are around today properly) Everything i said was based on letters the Alter Rebbe sent to Reb Mendel Horodoker and R' Avraham Kalisker A"H in Eretz Yisroel. As well as other sources from that time
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 10:44:10 AM
I'm asking this to the chabadnikim here.
When I see seforim written after the Rebbe passed away and it refers to him as Shlita and not ZT"L, does it mean it was written by a nut, or is it b/c he is still 'alive' through his teachings?

And if it's the latter, do they do this with all their rabonnim?

(My bad if this was asked before/)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
You managed to find a nut. There are nuts in every sect btw thought Tzfat does seem to be blessed disproportionately.
There was a group of elokistim in Australia. They were put into charem by the Chabad beis din, as would be anyone else who believes in equating the Rebbe and Hashem.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 11:16:52 AM
elokistim
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 11:19:18 AM
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?
No influence. I've never even met one.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
What a great name for them!
Do they have any influence at 770. or is there a certain limit to the madness there?
AFAIK they don't have much influence in 770, in fact other than this group in Oz and a 1 crazy guy that used to live in Tzfas I never heard of any other reports
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:52:33 AM
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true. (maybe its a couple of nuts).Is there a photo of the rebbeh in the shul? Is it on the mizrach wall?
Dunno, but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 11:55:24 AM
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true.
There are no pictures of the Rebbe hanging anywhere in 770
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:56:51 AM
There are no pictures of the Rebbe hanging anywhere in 770
Interesting, Im kinda pleasantly surprised
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 11:57:32 AM
but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
I wish everyone would read Rabbi Rappaports book in response to Berger.  The Messiah Problem: Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination (Ilford 2002)

He has so much solid information and sources in halacha it makes this whole thread a joke.

And he talks about other chassidim that do more extreme things.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 12:00:12 PM
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true. (maybe its a couple of nuts).Is there a photo of the rebbeh in the shul? Is it on the mizrach wall?
Dunno, but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
Sad how misinformed you are and willing to accept l"h/rumors like that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 12:04:00 PM
Interesting, Im kinda pleasantly surprised
Surprised? See Kitzur Shu"a Siman 18 Se'If 8.

In general whenever you hear a rumor (about anyone, mikal Shekein about an Eidah Shleimah BeYisroel) that seems to crazy to be true. Instead of assuming that it may be true how about assume it isn't true unless proven otherwise?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 12:04:56 PM
I wish everyone would read Rabbi Rappaports book in response to Berger.  The Messiah Problem: Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination (Ilford 2002)

He has so much solid information and sources in halacha it makes this whole thread a joke.

And he talks about other chassidim that do more extreme things.
To be honest, I tried....
BTW it's been out of print and can not be had for money FWIH
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 12:20:26 PM
To be honest, I tried....
BTW it's been out of print and can not be had for money FWIH
I know :( it is unfortunate. Just have to know the right people ;) A book like that I wish he just allowed someone to scan it and put it online. (They do sell picture of the Rebbe right when you walk into the lower part of 770 btw.)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 12:21:45 PM
I know :( it is unfortunate. Just have to know the right people ;) A book like that I wish he just allowed someone to scan it and put it online.
You're right but it's definitely NOT an easy read. It's not a book I can give to a friend and ask him to read it Shabbos after his Cholent nap...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 12:33:04 PM
I do have a serious question, I wonder if anyone can provide a reasonable response.
Why does chabad currently not have a rebbe? I understand that the last rebbe didnt have children, but isnt Chasidus all about having a rebbe? Why cant they appoint a rebbe? You want to bring up your children as chassidim, but of whom? Something is wrong with the relationship of the chabad chasidim to the late rebbe if they cannot or will not find and appoint a replacement.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 12:35:27 PM
I do have a serious question, I wonder if anyone can provide a reasonable response.
Why does chabad currently not have a rebbe? I understand that the last rebbe didnt have children, but isnt Chasidus all about having a rebbe? Why cant they appoint a rebbe? You want to bring up your children as chassidim, but of whom? Something is wrong with the relationship of the chabad chasidim to the late rebbe if they cannot or will not find and appoint a replacement.


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/172,1285/Why-doesnt-Chabad-select-a-new-Rebbe.html
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ganizzy on January 15, 2013, 12:46:07 PM
i hate to break it to you, but theres plenty of hate.
during ww11, one of the litvisher rabbonim in america that was in charge of getting food and supplies to europe, refused to send stuff to lubavitcher bochrim.

heard firsthand from someone that worked in the office


this discussion reminds me of something that happened in elementary - about 5th or 6th grade
my school was lubavitch, but was the only frum seperated schhol in the city so everyone went there

the daughter of the litvish rav was in my class and always had a snide comment about chabad (mostly from her father)
after one comment too many, one of the girls (a baal tshuva family, at that point i dont know how strongly her family identified with chabad) said - your father is a rav and yet he cant even fulfill the one basic mitzvah of ahavas yisrael. the girl had a flip attack and couldnt believe people were attacking her father, so unfounded, not fair....
she couldnt see that constantly bashing chabad (even jokingly) is the opposite of ahavas yisrael
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 01:34:35 PM
No I do not think I can judge people who lived 200 years ago (i can't even judge people who are around today properly) Everything i said was based on letters the Alter Rebbe sent to Reb Mendel Horodoker and R' Avraham Kalisker A"H in Eretz Yisroel. As well as other sources from that time
did you read the letters yourself?  are you familiar with the context of the letters and exactly who and what situations they're referring to?  are you translating exactly what the baal hatanyah said, or giving a loose translation based on your/others interpretation of it?      "other sources" is vague and meaningless                     
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 01:45:00 PM
did you read the letters yourself?  are you familiar with the context of the letters and exactly who and what situations they're referring to?  are you translating exactly what the baal hatanyah said, or giving a loose translation based on your/others interpretation of it?      "other sources" is vague and meaningless                     
yes I did, in the letter The Alter Rebbe says that he went to Vilna to try and talk with the Gaon but those around the Gaon would not allow the meeting to happen. There are many more letters who anyone who deals with the history of that time is familiar with. These things aren't secrets they are out in the open and anyone can access them.
To say that there was no Hisnagdus in the days of the GR'A is laughable at least. I'm surprised we are arguing about it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 02:04:42 PM
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/172,1285/Why-doesnt-Chabad-select-a-new-Rebbe.html
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
There is a torah journal called Yeshurun, in a few of their volumes they have extensive research into the veracity of the alter rebbe's letters. I never read them, but IIRC the conclusion is that rubam sheker. I'm not saying they're right, just giving a mareh makom to the intellectually honest. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 02:11:51 PM
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?

You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 02:12:10 PM
There is a torah journal called Yeshurun, in a few of their volumes they have extensive research into the veracity of the alter rebbe's letters. I never read them, but IIRC the conclusion is that rubam sheker. I'm not saying they're right, just giving a mareh makom to the intellectually honest. 
Are you talking about the Alter Rebbe's letter or about the Charson Genizah (A collection of letters of the ba'al Shem Tov and his students over which there is a controversy)?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 02:13:45 PM
I couldn't get past the first paragraph.
The Rebbe accepted the leadership of Chabad (and world Jewry) in 1951 and became the seventh Chabad Rebbe.
Can you explain?
"The leadership of world Jewry was given to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and he fulfilled that mission to the maximum. The entire people of Israel were his concern, and a deep concern. Jews in every corner of the world, no matter how forsaken and no matter how small in number, were on his mind and in his heart and soul." -Rabbi Zev Segal, currently with the Memorial Foundation for Jewish Culture in New York City, is a former President of the Rabbinical Council of America and spiritual leader of the Young Israel of Newark.

A leader leads whether people follow or not. And he definitely was requested to lead by Jews around the world so I don't see a problem with that statement.

ETA- Reference to Rabbi Segal's letter. http://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/395797 It is a beautiful read, and from a non-lubab, so you don't have to throw it out after the first paragraph.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 02:20:59 PM
"Throughout Jewish history there were great leaders, but I know of no precedent, for one who transformed, visibly and substantively every single Jewish community in the world – including many parts of the world that never had a Jewish community before."
- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/1691120/jewish/Transcript-Chief-Rabbi-Sacks-Highlights-Rebbes-Inspiring-Charge.htm
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 02:29:07 PM
You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 02:30:05 PM
yes I did, in the letter The Alter Rebbe says that he went to Vilna to try and talk with the Gaon but those around the Gaon would not allow the meeting to happen. There are many more letters who anyone who deals with the history of that time is familiar with. These things aren't secrets they are out in the open and anyone can access them.
To say that there was no Hisnagdus in the days of the GR'A is laughable at least. I'm surprised we are arguing about it.
it's well known and documented that the alter rebbe came to see the gaon to have the chairem taken off but was not received.   we were not arguing about that.     you claimed that the alter rebbe writes that the gaon was supposedly lacking in his duty regarding his thoughts on chassidus or some such.        i find it hard to believe that someone as big as the baal hatanya would say anything negative about the gaon.    i would think it's from later followers and zealots who have some major lackings that put words in his mouth, so to speak.       so again, do you have a verified letter of the baal hatanyah where he makes such statements?   if so, please quote. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 02:32:11 PM
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
In every generation there is a nosi, someone who would qualify to be moshiach should the generation merit it.
I'm not saying the Rebbe was Moshe Rabbeinu as I'm not saying our generation was the one that left Mitzrayim. 
I'm saying he is a nosi in our generation as was Moshe in his generation.

Feel free to disagree with this aspect of chabad ideology, but that's the answer to your question.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 02:32:32 PM
wtvr, but moshe rabeinu? cmon
Great debate skills! I am impressed.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 02:33:18 PM
You consider R' Shach to be "gadol hador?"
We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador and is evidenced in his impact on the world, the diversity of people who came for yechidus and dollars and were impacted through millions of correspondence letters, and through his shluchim and chassidim.  The same as Moshe Rabbeinu was nosi of his generation.

would you say if aish hatorah effected the most jews and diversity of people through their kiruv that that made rav noach weinberg the nasi hador?         or "same as Moshe Rabbeinu"?         

roiv bnei torah in the velt held rav shach to be gadol hador.  that was never the case for the rebbe.  only his chassidus and a lot of not frum yidden/balei teshuva, that didn't really know much about yiddishkeit bichlal, certainly not who's qualified to be the "nasi hador".     
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 02:38:17 PM
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.
All leaders of klall yisroel in every generation served the kllal were respected and are remembered but the next generation always took over and continued the chain of leadership for each generation, R shach is not currently a leader. Neither the rebbe.
The only leader in history that has unique "staying power" is mosheh rabeinu, to set yourselves up that this rebbe is more unique a leader than say the baal hatanya is silly.
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on January 15, 2013, 02:39:50 PM
I have finally read through this entire thread and would like to add/clarify a few things. I hope it is coherent enough and not to disorganized...  First I would like to further emphasize the distinction some have tried to make between hate and strong disagreement and disapproval of a certain ideology.  While there are always people who will turn a purely shem shamayin ideeoligical battle into a hateful immature fight that does not discredit the ones who are sincere about their belief in the ideology being wrong yet love those who believe in it because they are Jews.  It is perfectly understandable that someone from the lubavitch perspective will have strong emotional dislike and intellectual disagreement for what Rav Shach said.  On the other hand, from an intellectual viewpoint can you understand that a gadol can feel that there are people who have views and haskafas that are counter to Torah haskafah yet they are being confused as acceptable positions.  The gadol therefore feels he needs to take a very strong stance to counter this perceived negative influence. The gadol also feels that there is a person who is responsible for it and he must be discredited lshem shamayim? (i am not saying it is right in this case nor whether you should agree, nor that you shouldn't be upset about it, I am just saying it is possible for a such a position to exist about something and if a gadol feels it is true that it makes sense that he would act that way and not God forbid be a rasha). To say that the Rebbe would never do such thing seems a little funny-why not? If he felt that a different segment of Judaism was leading people down the wrong path shouldn't he come out very strongly and do what is necessary to stop distance it from his understanding of acceptable torah hashkafa?
Second, Dan is correct in stating that the strong disagreement (liberal substitute for hate- see my first point) existed before messianism.  However, it is the same issue that many gedolim were concerned about in the Lubavitch movement that they believe manifested itself in Messianism.  As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".
Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin). 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 02:40:07 PM
Great debate skills! I am impressed.
I elaborated, sorry, that automatic  :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 02:40:28 PM
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.
All leaders of klall yisroel in every generation served the kllal were respected and are remembered but the next generation always took over and continued the chain of leadership for each generation, R shach is not currently a leader. Neither the rebbe.
The only leader in history that has unique "staying power" is mosheh rabeinu, to set yourselves up that this rebbe is more unique a leader than say the baal hatanya is silly.
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.
I LOVE THIS REPLY!!! Everyone not chabad said EXACTLY this the day after gimel tamuz and the best reply possible to you is that chabad shlichus has grown exponentially since then. The facts speak for themselves. people said chabad would be dead in a few years, look were were are now.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 02:42:26 PM
I honestly feel bad for you guys, in 25 years the rebbe will be a distant memory and all your dreams of extreme leadership and grandeur are and will slowly fade into one big confused and disappointed group of well meaning Jews.

I have no such dreams, as I've already said any lubavitcher will be happy with moshaich whoever he may be.

But as long as there are people willing to dedicate their lives to fulfill the Rebbe's vision he will never fade away.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 02:44:32 PM
would you say if aish hatorah effected the most jews and diversity of people through their kiruv that that made rav noach weinberg the nasi hador?   
No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 02:45:28 PM
No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)
Bingo.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 02:53:09 PM
roiv bnei torah in the velt held rav shach to be gadol hador.  that was never the case for the rebbe.  only his chassidus and a lot of not frum yidden/balei teshuva, that didn't really know much about yiddishkeit bichlal, certainly not who's qualified to be the "nasi hador".     
1. gadol hador nasi hador
2. Maybe if rav shach cared for all yidden acted as leader to all of klal yisroal, not just the (non-chassidic) bnei torah he would be considered a gadol hador outside of the bnei torah velt.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
Dammit! I told myself I'm not getting dragged into this again...

Why did you have to revive this thread?!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 02:57:59 PM
1. gadol hador nasi hador
2. Maybe if rav shach cared for all yidden, not just the (non-chassidic) bnei torah he would be considered a gadol hador outside of the bnei torah velt.
Can we please not get into a Rav Shach debate. Yare could tell you he did care for all yiden that's why he tried getting them to stop believing in kfira...
I have finally read through this entire thread and would like to add/clarify a few things. I hope it is coherent enough and not to disorganized...  First I would like to further emphasize the distinction some have tried to make between hate and strong disagreement and disapproval of a certain ideology.  While there are always people who will turn a purely shem shamayin ideeoligical battle into a hateful immature fight that does not discredit the ones who are sincere about their belief in the ideology being wrong yet love those who believe in it because they are Jews.  It is perfectly understandable that someone from the lubavitch perspective will have strong emotional dislike and intellectual disagreement for what Rav Shach said.  On the other hand, from an intellectual viewpoint can you understand that a gadol can feel that there are people who have views and haskafas that are counter to Torah haskafah yet they are being confused as acceptable positions.  The gadol therefore feels he needs to take a very strong stance to counter this perceived negative influence. The gadol also feels that there is a person who is responsible for it and he must be discredited lshem shamayim? (i am not saying it is right in this case nor whether you should agree, nor that you shouldn't be upset about it, I am just saying it is possible for a such a position to exist about something and if a gadol feels it is true that it makes sense that he would act that way and not God forbid be a rasha). To say that the Rebbe would never do such thing seems a little funny-why not? If he felt that a different segment of Judaism was leading people down the wrong path shouldn't he come out very strongly and do what is necessary to stop distance it from his understanding of acceptable torah hashkafa?
Second, Dan is correct in stating that the strong disagreement (liberal substitute for hate- see my first point) existed before messianism.  However, it is the same issue that many gedolim were concerned about in the Lubavitch movement that they believe manifested itself in Messianism.  As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".
Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin). 

I wish you would of broken that into smaller paragraphs it was a bit hard on the eyes, but I think i agree with what you said in regards to gedolim disagreeing.

As for a mesora, as long as there is a halachik source whether you follow it or not you can't call it kfira. Who paskened on this before? How would you know which mesora to follow, its not exactly a daily talked about halacha over the past many years. If a beis din decides to follow a certain rishon even if that wasn't the norm until then isn't that halachikly ok? I definitely wouldn't call it kfira. No?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 03:03:49 PM
as long as there is a halachik source whether you follow it or not you can't call it kfira.
There are many.
The Rosh (a former litvisher and now a major anti-meshichist) once ripped his brother Immanuel Schochet for saying that the belief that moshiach could come from the dead doesn't fall outside the realm of orthodox jewry, saying that is well documented in Orthodox Judaism as a possibility and you shouldn't say "doesn't fall outside the realm."
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 03:07:14 PM
I suggest that if you are a real chossid you find yourself a rebbe.
Just a story (yes I am a Chossid after all :) ): After the Rebbe maharash (the 4th Chabad Rebbe) passed away, there was a period of 10 years that no "officialy" accepted the Nessius. The Chassidim would address their questions to 2 of the Rebbes children, R' Zalman Aharon (the RaZ"A. the oldest son) and Reb Shalom Dovber (the RaSha"B, the one who later became the 5th Chabad Rebbe).
During this period a Chassid once asked the Raz"a: "even if you don't think you are worthy of the title Rebbe, at least do it for the Kavod of your father". The Raz"a answered "It is precisely for the Kavod of my father that I do NOT want to take the Nessius. if people will see me acting as Rebbe they will assume that my father was just like me".
Vehanimshal Muvan
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 03:16:05 PM
Are you talking about the Alter Rebbe's letter or about the Charson Genizah (A collection of letters of the ba'al Shem Tov and his students over which there is a controversy)?
Alter Rebbe's letters
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 03:38:12 PM
Iv heard rumors of chabdniks at 770 while saying "Vanachnu korim umishtachavim" they bow to a portrait of the rebbeh, I have no idea if this is true. (maybe its a couple of nuts).Is there a photo of the rebbeh in the shul? Is it on the mizrach wall?
Dunno, but they dont say such stories about any other chassidus...
Some weird stuff, but not exactly what you write.
&feature=player_embedded
I may have posted others earlier in this thread.

And some internal strife
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
&feature=player_embedded


Gotta admit, even if it's a teeny tiny group, the fact that this happens in the hq of the movement definitely puts a stain on it...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 03:40:40 PM
Let me just say one thing, I love talking about present day Chabad with Lubavitcer old timers, who realize that what Chabad became was a tremendous change, and can debate it, and understand clearly where the anti chabad sentiment comes from (I have relatives). But with people 35 years and under who never knew anything else, it's like  talking to a wall.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 03:40:55 PM
Which movement is headquartered is the basement of 770 other than the Taliban, the Tzfati extremist thugs that occupy it illegally, who are despised by 99.9% of lubavitchers worldwide?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 03:43:18 PM
Let me just say one thing, I love talking about present day Chabad with Lubavitcer old timers, who realize that what Chabad became was a tremendous change, and can debate it, and understand clearly where the anti chabad sentiment comes from (I have relatives). But with people 35 years and under who never knew anything else, it's like  talking to a wall.
So you like hearing what you like to hear. That makes sense to me. It is especially is inline with this whole thread because basically anything can be answered with some simple googling.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 03:43:48 PM
I think it is clear that the majority of crown heights are meshichistim and that is probably why they have control of 770.

Whether or not crown heights residents represent the real chabad or the shluchim do is an old machlokes.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/172,1285/Why-doesnt-Chabad-select-a-new-Rebbe.html
Ehh, it's a circular type of argument to make.

But if it's true, at what point does that generation end (and hence the Rebbe was not correct) and Chabad appoint a new Rebbe to lead the flock?

If Chabad ever tried doing that, would it cause a complete schism btw the radical mashicists and the rest of chabad?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 03:49:00 PM
So you like hearing what you like to hear. That makes sense to me. It is especially is inline with this whole thread because basically anything can be answered with some simple googling.
No, they argue with me, and explain the rebbe's chiddushim, they don't agree with me. But with you guys, it's like everything anti chabad is from left field.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 03:50:01 PM
Just wondering why Lakewood doesn't have the Taliban occupying their headquaters?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 03:53:13 PM
Just wondering why Lakewood doesn't have the Taliban occupying their headquaters?
It's more an israeli problem but sadly chabad is not the only group with loudmouths giving their group a bad name. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 03:53:43 PM
that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all. 
Interesting point.
Is it true?

No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)
And I always thought it was R. Carlebach
:)

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on January 15, 2013, 03:55:14 PM
As for a mesora, as long as there is a halachik source whether you follow it or not you can't call it kfira. Who paskened on this before? How would you know which mesora to follow, its not exactly a daily talked about halacha over the past many years. If a beis din decides to follow a certain rishon even if that wasn't the norm until then isn't that halachikly ok? I definitely wouldn't call it kfira. No?
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs it didn't look that bad when I was typing.... I don't know about kfira for that reason alone but it definitely is a very dangerous approach
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 03:57:47 PM
It's more an israeli problem but sadly chabad is not the only group with loudmouths giving their group a bad name. 
Definitely.
But since they've probably impacted the widest variety of ppl in klal yisroel, the loudmouths have the strongest impact than the loudmouths in other grps.

Especially in Israel where they all seem to be loudmouths :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:06:18 PM
In every generation there is a nosi, someone who would qualify to be moshiach should the generation merit it.
I'm not saying the Rebbe was Moshe Rabbeinu as I'm not saying our generation was the one that left Mitzrayim. 
I'm saying he is a nosi in our generation as was Moshe in his generation.

Feel free to disagree with this aspect of chabad ideology, but that's the answer to your question.
Say for arguments sake you are correct, that every generation has a "nosi/moshiach". If you believe that the rebbe passed away ~20 years ago, who is the current Nosi? Who is your leader, who is your Nosi?
If you tell me that you believe that its still the rebbe, as the Nosi can be from the dead too, surly you would agree that there much greater leaders amongst the dead. Why not proclaim the  Alter Rebbe Nosi/Moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:07:45 PM
Ehh, it's a circular type of argument to make.

But if it's true, at what point does that generation end (and hence the Rebbe was not correct) and Chabad appoint a new Rebbe to lead the flock?

If Chabad ever tried doing that, would it cause a complete schism btw the radical mashicists and the rest of chabad?
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:10:17 PM
Some weird stuff, but not exactly what you write.
&feature=player_embedded
I may have posted others earlier in this thread.

And some internal strife
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
&feature=player_embedded


Gotta admit, even if it's a teeny tiny group, the fact that this happens in the hq of the movement definitely puts a stain on it...
the first video is so disturbing and pathetic.  :'(
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 04:12:45 PM
the first video is so disturbing and pathetic.  :'(
That's probably the only statement of yours in this thread which I agree with.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 04:13:17 PM
That's probably the only statement of yours in this thread which I agree with.
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 04:13:26 PM
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 04:14:46 PM
Say for arguments sake you are correct, that every generation has a "nosi/moshiach". If you believe that the rebbe passed away ~20 years ago, who is the current Nosi? Who is your leader, who is your Nosi?
If you tell me that you believe that its still the rebbe, as the Nosi can be from the dead too, surly you would agree that there much greater leaders amongst the dead. Why not proclaim the  Alter Rebbe Nosi/Moshiach?
Because this is our Rebbe.  This is the Rebbe I saw with my own two eyes.  This is the Rebbe who taught us torah from his own mouth for decades, who loved every single jew more than any other person could possibly comprehend.  This is the Rebbe who made miracles happen to thousands of people as if they were nothing, foretold countless people's futures, who did for my own family before he passed away and even managed to help save my own brother's life after he passed away.
It's a valid question.  As long as people are alive and well that saw and remember him (which pretty much means they're about my age or older) then that is our generation.  As is proven from many sources death doesn't disqualify someone from being mashiach, and those who say that is heretical are calling everyone from Rav to the Rashbi to the Abarbenel heretical.

What will my grandkids believe?  I don't think the question of who is mashiach is or should be the focus, so frankly I couldn't care less.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:18:54 PM
Your grandkids will not be chassidim. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
Your grandkids will not be chassidim. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Are there no Breslov Chassidim remaining?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:26:14 PM
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

And why do I think R. Shach wouldn't have approved of this.
http://www.vosizneias.com/post/read/9801

Or R. Elyashiv of this
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=6888

At least the Chabad rabbi may have done good with his appearance.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 04:28:05 PM
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?
Yes we want our children to have a Real Rebbe (we want to have a Real Rebbe), Haven't found one yet to appoint.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 04:30:41 PM
Yes we want our children to have a Real Rebbe (we want  to have a Real Rebbe), Haven't found one yet to appoint.
Il do it ;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 04:31:45 PM
I guess so.
Still no answer why not appoint a leader. You will still have your fond memories, but as Chassidim you will have a relevant leader in the next generation, dont you want your kids to have a real rebbe, not a great figure from the past?
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.
B. There is no Lubavitcher in the world who would accept upon himself to succeed the Rebbe.
C. The Rebbe became Rebbe only after a year of pleading from Chassidim worldwide.  There is no popular demand for any person to become Rebbe today.
D. Even if such a person existed the vast majority would not accept him, thus rendering it pointless.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 04:33:45 PM
Il do it ;D
In that case I'll become Ois Lubavitch ;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.
B. There is no Lubavitcher in the world who would accept upon himself to succeed the Rebbe.
C. The Rebbe became Rebbe only after a year of pleading from Chassidim worldwide.  There is no popular demand for any person to become Rebbe today.
D. Even if such a person existed the vast majority would not accept him, thus rendering it pointless.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.
But surely you understand the danger in saying that we won't have an active leader, but that we will rely on our best understanding of the mesora he left us with.
It can ultimately lead to anarchy, and that is exactly what's happening with all these wackos.
And it will only get worse...

Besides, doesn't it say somewhere that Yiftach b'doro is like shmuel b'doro (I know I'm messing up the phrase, but I'm on hold w/ cs). Even if a leader of a generation doesn't match up with previous leaders, it's not an excuse to choose to not have a leader.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 04:50:19 PM
The wackos are not in a position of power and do not control the shlichus operation or the chabad movement.  They're wackos and having a new leader won't get rid of them.  Though the courts may evict them eventually.  They do make for great fodder amongst those who anyway despise chabad, but haters will hate.

We have rabbonim and mashpi'im that can guide us, but there never will be another chabad Rebbe for the reasons I already outlined.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
Why do I think that the Baal Hatanya wouldn't approve of this:

I think he would.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 04:53:14 PM
Why do I think Moshe Rabeinu, The Ba'al HaTanya, The GR"A or any other Gadol any of us hold dear wouldn't approve of this thread?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
Can we please not get into a Rav Shach debate. Yare could tell you he did care for all yiden that's why he tried getting them to stop believing in kfira...
thanks for fielding that one  :P

No, I would say Aish's success is another testament to the effect of the Rebbe on klal yisroel.
(let me guess, you're gonna say that it was Aish that started the whole kiruv thing and it wasn't influenced by the Rebbe?)
you missed the point.  ones effect on diverse yidden/kiruv is not a testament to their standing as a gadol/nasi hador.   show me one place in tanach or gemara where the gadol hador was decided by who had an effect on a lot of people?     it's very nice (possibly), but i'm not sure why you think it's in any way a qualifier.   

I think he would.
joking or clueless?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 05:09:41 PM
On a completely side note, is it discussed and well-known in Chabad circles that he was in University in Berlin, wore the Litvishe type hat, etc? When I read it, I was very pleasantly surprised. I have no doubt that its one of the reasons he was more approachable and open than other manhigai hador.

"Schneerson studied mathematics, physics and philosophy in Berlin, Germany for five semesters from mid-1928 through 1930.[24] His father-in-law, Yosef Yitzchok, paid for all the tuition expenses and helped facilitate his studies throughout."

"In 1933, Rabbi Schneerson moved to Paris, France. He studied mechanics and electrical engineering at the École spéciale des travaux publics, du bâtiment et de l'industrie (ESTP), a Grandes écoles in the Montparnasse district. He graduated in July 1937 and received a license to practice as an electrical engineer. In November 1937, he enrolled at the Sorbonne, where he studied mathematics until World War II broke out in 1939."

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 15, 2013, 05:12:37 PM
you missed the point.  ones effect on diverse yidden/kiruv is not a testament to their standing as a gadol/nasi hador.   show me one place in tanach or gemara where the gadol hador was decided by who had an effect on a lot of people?     it's very nice (possibly), but i'm not sure why you think it's in any way a qualifier.
I think you missed the point.
The point is the Rebbe cared about, took an interest in and did what could to help every yid, especially those who needed strengthening in their yiddishkeit. The Rebbe acted like a leader, a raya mehemna -a faithful sheperd who cared for every one of his flock. that's what makes him a nosi.
The effect on multitudes of yiden is an outcome of that.

   
joking or clueless?
Dead serious.
That's what the rebbe was all about. Taking the klipas nogah of the world (i.e. TV, Basketball games) and using them to spread yiddishkeit.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
On a completely side note, is it discussed and well-known in Chabad circles that he was in University in Berlin, wore the Litvishe type hat, etc? When I read it, I was very pleasantly surprised. I have no doubt that its one of the reasons he was more approachable and open than other manhigai hador.

Litvishe hat? What's that? What is litvish about this?
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2513/therebbe.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/therebbe.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 05:15:55 PM
The wackos are not in a position of power and do not control the shlichus operation or the chabad movement. 
They just are the majority of crown heights, control the shul, and control the beis din. Did I forget anything else?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 05:18:19 PM
Litvishe hat? What's that? What is litvish about this?
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2513/therebbe.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/therebbe.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
compare to what the freidiker wore.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 05:19:55 PM
Litvishe hat? What's that? What is litvish about this?
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2513/therebbe.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/therebbe.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Didn't see anything.

In the link below (I didn't read the post) is a pic. I had seen a better pic last year, but can't find it now.
http://chabadrevisited.blogspot.co.il/2010/05/inspired-by-forthcoming-book-titled.html
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
compare to what the freidiker wore.
How is that litvish? It's a veltish hat. They say a story that a chassid from a different sect said the the Rebbe if only you wore a streimel you would have hundreds of thousands more chassidim. the Rebbe replied I care more about affecting one yeshuvnick in Israel, then making other chassidim my own.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 15, 2013, 05:41:46 PM
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.
B. There is no Lubavitcher in the world who would accept upon himself to succeed the Rebbe.
C. The Rebbe became Rebbe only after a year of pleading from Chassidim worldwide.  There is no popular demand for any person to become Rebbe today.
D. Even if such a person existed the vast majority would not accept him, thus rendering it pointless.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.
Dan, lets be honest.
If he had a son, he would have been the new Rebbe. Even if he wasn't as great.
I think that your answers are b'dieved in order to explain the current situation.

And this entire thread would be irrelevant.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 05:46:00 PM
If he had a son then B C and D would likely not apply.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on January 15, 2013, 05:49:01 PM
If he had a son then B C and D would likely not apply.

How does having a new leader preclude wanting moshiach? Didn't everyone want moshiach to come while the Rebbe was alive?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Cbs on January 15, 2013, 05:54:52 PM
If he had a son then B C and D would likely not apply.
+1

How does having a new leader preclude wanting moshiach? Didn't everyone want moshiach to come while the Rebbe was alive?
yes because the rebbe said if I'm not mistaken this is the last generation before moshiach and it's up to us and he did what he could. A new leader would mean that there's more to he can do.
In any case once everyone saw that the rebbe had no kids etc they thought this must be the end and moshiach for sure will come
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 06:11:01 PM
A. is hogwash, all jews in all generations waited for moshiach every day at least as much as chabad. They still needed and wanted to be lead-Especially the chassidim.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 06:19:23 PM
They say a story that a chassid from a different sect said the the Rebbe if only you wore a streimel you would have hundreds of thousands more chassidim. the Rebbe replied I care more about affecting one yeshuvnick in Israel, then making other chassidim my own.
I thought it was because the shviger wouldn't give him the shtreimel.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ganizzy on January 15, 2013, 06:30:45 PM
I thought it was because the shviger wouldn't give him the shtreimel.

the rebbe wore the reg hat before that.

thank g-d. paying for a shtreimel AND a shaitel!!! :)

we would like a rebbe to lead us, and yes there is internal issues in chabad bec there is no rebbe with a final say.
however there just isnt anyone who can fill the rebbe's position.

and btw previous rebbeim had other children that werent qualified for the role. it didnt always go to the oldest son or son in law.
specifically in the rebbes case, there was an older brother in law, and there was some talk of him taking over from the previous rebbe, but he realized the Rebbe was much more qualified and he became the Rebbe's chossid
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 07:18:54 PM
I think you missed the point.
The point is the Rebbe cared about, took an interest in and did what could to help every yid, especially those who needed strengthening in their yiddishkeit. The Rebbe acted like a leader, a raya mehemna -a faithful sheperd who cared for every one of his flock. that's what makes him a nosi.
The effect on multitudes of yiden is an outcome of that.
i think you, and the chabadskers (on this thread) in general, are a bit delusional about the rebbes effect on yidden.  he effected his chassidim, (as every rebbe should), and he effected many frya yidden through kiruv/shluchim.        i'm not sure why you all think that made him a leader for jewry, when most to all of frum jewry did not take him on as a leader in any form, or receive any positive effect from him.    but hey, whatever keeps you happy.

Dead serious.
That's what the rebbe was all about. Taking the klipas nogah of the world (i.e. TV, Basketball games) and using them to spread yiddishkeit.
we were talking about the baal hatanya, not the last rebbe. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:30:38 PM
we were talking about the baal hatanya, not the last rebbe. 
Then I suggest you open a Tanya ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:31:32 PM
On a completely side note, is it discussed and well-known in Chabad circles that he was in University in Berlin, wore the Litvishe type hat, etc? When I read it, I was very pleasantly surprised. I have no doubt that its one of the reasons he was more approachable and open than other manhigai hador.

"Schneerson studied mathematics, physics and philosophy in Berlin, Germany for five semesters from mid-1928 through 1930.[24] His father-in-law, Yosef Yitzchok, paid for all the tuition expenses and helped facilitate his studies throughout."

"In 1933, Rabbi Schneerson moved to Paris, France. He studied mechanics and electrical engineering at the École spéciale des travaux publics, du bâtiment et de l'industrie (ESTP), a Grandes écoles in the Montparnasse district. He graduated in July 1937 and received a license to practice as an electrical engineer. In November 1937, he enrolled at the Sorbonne, where he studied mathematics until World War II broke out in 1939."


Yes.
He also worked on still classified US Navy projects during the war IIRC?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:33:00 PM
They just are the majority of crown heights, control the shul, and control the beis din. Did I forget anything else?
Sorry but you're average crown heightser is not a wacko.  The Taliban are the wackos.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 07:35:26 PM
Sorry but you're average crown heightser is not a wacko.  The Taliban are the wackos.
Sorry, I was equating meshichist and wacko.  What adjective would you use to describe them?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:38:40 PM
Sorry, I was equating meshichist and wacko.  What adjective would you use to describe them?
As long as they're not bothering me and not acting like the taliban why should I care? Live and let live.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 07:41:22 PM
Man! I told myself I'm not getting dragged into this again...

Why did you have to revive this thread?!
I like Dan and everyone else here too much.  Why am I getting involved?! ???
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 07:41:34 PM
Then I suggest you open a Tanya ;)
and you think the basketball game charade is what he intended?  maybe it's time you got a rebbe to teach you how to learn tanya ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:43:29 PM
and you think the basketball game charade is what he intended?  maybe it's time you got a rebbe to teach you how to learn tanya ;)
Your shtechs are just oh so cute.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 15, 2013, 07:44:56 PM
Your shtechs are just oh so cute.
as cute as it was, it was also very serious.       if that's how you're understanding the tanya, you need to be learning with a rebbe (and i'm not alluding to a new "rebbe," just speaking straight).     
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Our job is to bring Judaism down to the lowest levels that we can to make a dira lo yisbareich b'tachtonim.

The A"R says we can't do that for klipah gamor, but klipas nogah is fair game.
If bringing Judaism to a basketball game, something that is klipas nogah, and reaching Jews via that manner will perhaps convince 1 more Jew at the game to light a menorah  that can tip the scales, so be it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yungerman on January 15, 2013, 08:08:38 PM
i think you, and the chabadskers (on this thread) in general, are a bit delusional about the rebbes effect on yidden.  he effected his chassidim, (as every rebbe should), and he effected many frya yidden through kiruv/shluchim.        i'm not sure why you all think that made him a leader for jewry, when most to all of frum jewry did not take him on as a leader in any form, or receive any positive effect from him.    but hey, whatever keeps you happy.

You, sir, are more than just a bit delusional. Frum Jewry hasn't received any positive effect from him?!?!?!?! Come on?!?!  :o :o :o ???
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 08:12:03 PM
You, sir, are more than just a bit delusional. Frum Jewry hasn't received any positive effect from him?!?!?!?! Come on?!?!  :o :o :o ???
It's pointless arguing with people like him.  That type will enjoy a minyan with fresh food in Timbuktu and then spit on their way out.  I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yungerman on January 15, 2013, 08:25:14 PM
It's pointless arguing with people like him.  That type will enjoy a minyan with fresh food in Timbuktu and then spit on their way out.  I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.

I just couldn't let such a shocking, patent falsehood be voiced without a response.

A boy that was indoctrinated to hate Lubavitch once told a Lubavitcher boy:"My father hates your Rebbe".
The Lubavitcher boy answered:"and my Rebbe loves your father". This is a conversation that actually took place.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 08:49:20 PM
It's pointless arguing with people like him.  That type will enjoy a minyan with fresh food in Timbuktu and then spit on their way out.  I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.
See here http://www.ou.org/torah/article/ensuring_that_emes_prevails_in_the_avodah_hakodesh_of_kashrus#.UPYF9ic0WSo
where Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky who is about as litvish as they come (not the one from Russia ;)) talks -at 2:30 -  about being makir tov to chabad for the hashgacha they do in the middle of no where.  It's interesting he mentioned it - doesn't seem to be any ulterior motives.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 08:54:59 PM
How does having a new leader preclude wanting moshiach? Didn't everyone want moshiach to come while the Rebbe was alive?
+1,000. Dan, you would never say such a sevara when talking about a good deal.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 08:55:25 PM
Why do I think Moshe Rabeinu, The Ba'al HaTanya, The GR"A or any other Gadol any of us hold dear wouldn't approve of this thread?
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 08:59:00 PM
How egotistical does a sect have to be, to think that only their Rebbe can be Moshiach, and if their Rebbe has no son, then he must be moshiach.

#juststatingtheobvious
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:00:35 PM
I like Dan and everyone else here too much.  Why am I getting involved?! ???
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:04:29 PM
How egotistical does a sect have to be, to think that only their Rebbe can be Moshiach, and if their Rebbe has no son, then he must be moshiach.

#juststatingtheobvious
How egotistical one must be, to presume they know the thoughts of an entire sect.
Newsflash: Nobody thinks that only he can be moshiach or that he must be moshiach to the exclusion of anyone else.  100% of lubavitchers would accept anyone revealed to be moshiach as I've said many times.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:06:12 PM
How egotistical does a sect have to be, to think that only their Rebbe can be Moshiach, and if their Rebbe has no son, then he must be moshiach.

#juststatingtheobvious


How is THAT what you understood from this whole conversation?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:07:58 PM
+1
yes because the rebbe said if I'm not mistaken this is the last generation before moshiach and it's up to us and he did what he could. A new leader would mean that there's more to he can do.
In any case once everyone saw that the rebbe had no kids etc they thought this must be the end and moshiach for sure will come

How egotistical one must be, to presume they know the thoughts of an entire sect.
Newsflash: Nobody thinks that only he can be moshiach or that he must be moshiach to the exclusion of anyone else.  100% of lubavitchers would accept anyone revealed to be moshiach as I've said many times.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:08:29 PM
Huh?
Where did cbs say in that quote that the Rebbe had to be moshiach??
Sure he may be.  But has to be??
All he said is that the time is now (cue Avraham Fried)


How is THAT what you understood from this whole conversation?
Because he doesn't care to listen.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:09:01 PM


And where exactly does it say there that the Rebbe was/must be Moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:10:34 PM
How egotistical one must be, to presume they know the thoughts of an entire sect.
Newsflash: Nobody thinks that only he can be moshiach or that he must be moshiach to the exclusion of anyone else.  100% of lubavitchers would accept anyone revealed to be moshiach as I've said many times.
that's a flat out lie. I've spoken to many lubavitchers who believe tht only he can be moshiach. And gave me the bechezkas moshiach BS, saying he was lochem milchamos, and screwing up a Rambam, stop lying.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
that's a flat out lie. I've spoken to many lubavitchers who believe tht only he can be moshiach. And gave me the bechezkas moshiach BS, saying he was lochem milchamos, and screwing up a Rambam, stop lying.
Those are the wackos, that's not mainstream thought.  Find me a non-Israeli shliach that says that.
Or better yet ask those people what would happen if someone else was revealed to be moshiach.

But nice way to castigate hundreds of thousands of fellow jews without even a thought of being dan l'kaf zchus.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:16:10 PM
Those are the wackos, that's not mainstream thought.  Find me a non-Israeli shliach that says that.
Or better yet ask those people what would happen if someone else was revealed to be moshiach.
The whole Chabad believed he was moshiach when the rebbe was alive, with the cheshbon that the 7th chabadsker rebbe is moshiach, and he's the nasi hador. Lately it's kept inside the heart. I think that's an egotistical sect. I'm sorry. It doesn't make you egotisitcal, I have nothing against you, it makes your sect's ideology egotistical.

Do you mind that I'm telling you my true feelings, I could hold back my real feelings, like i've been doing till now on this thread, and many others are still doing, and i may start doing again.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:17:29 PM
  Find me a non-Israeli shliach that says that.


Are there more Israelis that think like that?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
Those are the wackos, that's not mainstream thought.  Find me a non-Israeli shliach that says that.
Or better yet ask those people what would happen if someone else was revealed to be moshiach.

But nice way to castigate hundreds of thousands of fellow jews without even a thought of being dan l'kaf zchus.
I walked around Crown heights when i was young, about 15 years ago, shmoozing with tens and tens of people, walking into dozens of random sukkahs, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON TOLD ME THIS!!! Stop with your revisionist history. You couldn't find a chabadske in the NY or Israel that didn't say these things, I've shmoozed with enough lubavitchers to know that it wasn't just a minority.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
I walkes around Crown heights when i was young, about 15 years ago, shmoozing with tens and tens of people, walking into dozens of random sukkahs, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON TOLD ME THIS!!! Stop with your revisionist history.

Even if that's true, and it very well might be,  if you're not educated enough on the topic I think you may be better off listening than ranting. You're trying to convince a bunch of Chabadniks of what they believe when they are sitting here telling you the opposite.


I've met plenty of people who also were over obsessed with the Rebbe and also believed he was Moshiach.  And I still know enough to know that that is not the basis of Chabad. And there are PLENTY who don't think like that at all.

It seems like you're so set on believing what you want to believe so you can hold on to your "disgust" and feelings toward Chabad etc.

I won't deny there are Chabad wackos but why focus on them?
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:28:34 PM
Even if that's true, and it very well might be,  if you're not educated enough on the topic I think you may be better off listening than ranting. You're trying to convince a bunch of Chabadniks of what they believe when they are sitting here telling you the opposite.


I've met plenty of people who also were over obsessed with the Rebbe and also believed he was Moshiach.  And I still know enough to know that that is not the basis of Chabad. And there are PLENTY who don't think like that at all.
when they are sitting here and spinning the opposite. FTFY. It's not true, it's backtracking, thats all it is.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 09:30:16 PM
How egotistical does a sect have to be, to think that only their Rebbe can be Moshiach, and if their Rebbe has no son, then he must be moshiach.

#juststatingtheobvious

It's actually a Gemara (cannot remember where but if soooo imp. PM me and ill find out)

Gemara goes Something like this:
Rabbi x's students believed he was moahiach and rabbi y's students believed he was moahiach.
Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
Even if that's true, and it very well might be,  if you're not educated enough on the topic I think you may be better off listening than ranting. You're trying to convince a bunch of Chabadniks of what they believe when they are sitting here telling you the opposite.


I've met plenty of people who also were over obsessed with the Rebbe and also believed he was Moshiach.  And I still know enough to know that that is not the basis of Chabad. And there are PLENTY who don't think like that at all.

It seems like you're so set on believing what you want to believe so you can hold on to your "disgust" and feelings toward Chabad etc.

I won't dent there are Chabad wackos but why focus on them?
I don't have a disgust for chabad. I am moche bechol hatokef, that's simply untrue.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 15, 2013, 09:32:10 PM
hold back my real feelings,  start doing that again.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:32:41 PM
It's actually a Gemara (cannot remember where but if soooo imp. PM me and ill find out)

Gemara goes Something like this:
Rabbi x's students believed he was moahiach and rabbi y's students believed he was moahiach.
not because they believed that the 7th rosh yeshiva of their yeshiva had to be moshiach. There's a big difference.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:33:26 PM
hold back my real feelings,  start doing that again.

maybe i should. but i just had enough of all the spin.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:35:29 PM
This thread just reminds me why Mashiach isn't here yet.

All the judging, the hate. The lack of feeling connected as one nation.
And most importantly the ignorance every sect has for one another.
:-\



The lack of proper attitude of wanting to learn and understand and respect each other.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 09:35:44 PM
not because they believed that the 7th rosh yeshiva of their yeshiva had to be moshiach. There's a big difference.
Your point??

It's not based on that. It's based on the rebbe of each person being qualified for the position.

The 7th is not connected to this point specifically.

So now please answer the question (that I didn't state explicitly).

You stated that believing your rebbe is moahiach is egotistical. You're being proven wrong by a clear Gemara. Do you retract your statement or not, and why?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:38:00 PM
Your point??

It's not based on that. It's based on the rebbe of each person being qualified for the position.

The 7th is not connected to this point specifically.

So now please answer the question (that I didn't state explicitly).

You stated that believing your rebbe is moahiach is egotistical. You're being proven wrong by a clear Gemara. Do you retract your statement or not, and why?
Believing that your rebbe is moshiach because he's your rebbe is egotistical, believing your rebbe happens to be moshiach is not egotistical.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 09:40:35 PM
Believing that your rebbe is moshiach because he's your rebbe is egotistical, believing your rebbe happens to be moshiach is not egotistical.

I explained that each ones rebbe was qualified. So are you saying that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wasn't qualified or are you saying that were not egotistical?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:41:29 PM
I feel like when you delve deep down most of this has little to do with Religion and beliefs and more to do with ignorance and the hard time people have accepting anything that is different from what they know or how they were raised or what they were taught.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:42:13 PM
I walked around Crown heights when i was young, about 15 years ago, shmoozing with tens and tens of people, walking into dozens of random sukkahs, and EVERY SINGLE PERSON TOLD ME THIS!!! Stop with your revisionist history. You couldn't find a chabadske in the NY or Israel that didn't say these things, I've shmoozed with enough lubavitchers to know that it wasn't just a minority.
I've been in chabad yeshivos for 8 years, including both mishichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas.
Not once did I hear this business you're saying that the Rebbe had to be moshiach from any teachers or friends. Not once.
Maybe before Gimmel Tamuz, but not now. Except by the wackos who are a tiny minority.
 
I'm not denying that we'd love to have the Rebbe as moshiach, but that he has to be moshiach?
You are dead wrong.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 09:45:35 PM
This thread just reminds me why Mashiach isn't here yet.

All the judging, the hate. The lack of feeling connected as one nation.
And most importantly the ignorance every sect has for one another.
:-\



The lack of proper attitude of wanting to learn and understand and respect each other.

I feel like when you delve deep down most of this has little to do with Religion and beliefs and more to do with ignorance and the hard time people have accepting anything that is different from what they know or how they were raised or what they were taught.


Like! This whole thread has doubtfully changed one persons opinion on either side.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 09:48:07 PM
Like! This whole thread has doubtfully changed one persons opinion on either side.
Can be it did, just Maybe for the worse...
Poll time? :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:48:43 PM
I explained that each ones rebbe was qualified. So are you saying that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wasn't qualified or are you saying that were not egotistical?
1. Show me the gemara
2. prove to me the reason why each one thought their rebi was moshiach was just bec. they were qualified, and they held that if your rebbe is qualified then you should believe he's moshiach.
then i will continue this conversation
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
I've been in chabad yeshivos for 8 years, including both mishichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas.
Not once did I hear this business you're saying that the Rebbe had to be moshiach from any teachers or friends. Not once.
Maybe before Gimmel Tamuz, but not now. Except by the wackos who are a tiny minority.
 
I'm not denying that we'd love to have the Rebbe as moshiach, but that he has to be moshiach?
You are dead wrong.
does that make it any less egotistical?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:51:54 PM
I've been in chabad yeshivos for 8 years, including both mishichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas.
Not once did I hear this business you're saying that the Rebbe had to be moshiach from any teachers or friends. Not once.
Maybe before Gimmel Tamuz, but not now. Except by the wackos who are a tiny minority.
 
I'm not denying that we'd love to have the Rebbe as moshiach, but that he has to be moshiach?
You are dead wrong.
in the mishichist yeshivos they didn't say that the rebbe was mashiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
in the mishichist yeshivos they didn't say that the rebbe was mashiach?
They may want him to be moshiach, but he does not have to be moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 15, 2013, 09:57:19 PM
Gotta run.

B4 I go, I just want to say, that I love Lubavitchers and all other yidden equally. If any chabadske, i don't care if his yarmulke says yechi etc. ever is stuck in lakewood and wants a place to stay, i'll gladly host them, as i think you would me. And that's why I'm optimistic that moshiach is on his way. Because as much as we disagree almost any yid would go out of his way to help a fellow yid, a litvack would help out a lubavitcher, a satmerer would help out a mizrachi. MI KE'AMCHA YISRAEL!!!!!

WE WANT MOSHIACH NOW. WETHER HE'S LUBAVITCH OR YEMENITE OR WHATEVER. JUST BRING HIM NOW! KLAK YISRAEL SUFFERED ENOUGH!!

Title: Re: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: sky121 on January 15, 2013, 09:57:47 PM
They may want him to be moshiach, but he does not have to be moshiach.

Just out of curiosity how exactly did it come to be that some people started believing the Rebbe might be Moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 09:59:15 PM
Just out of curiosity how exactly did it come to be that some people started believing the Rebbe might be Moshiach?
The Rambam lists simanim for a possible moshiach, I'll let other more proficient in those sections to tackle that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 10:01:04 PM
Just out of curiosity how exactly did it come to be that some people started believing the Rebbe might be Moshiach?
I was actually reading my Great Great Grandfather's memoirs (A Chossid of the Rebbe Rasha"b) and he writes that in HIS days Chassidim believed it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 10:03:26 PM
The Rambam lists simanim for a possible moshiach, I'll let other more proficient in those sections to tackle that.
I'm think I or others answered these questions up thread with sources. Most of the today's questions were answered up thread or can easily be googled if people want to.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 10:05:31 PM
Just out of curiosity how exactly did it come to be that some people started believing the Rebbe might be Moshiach?
Additionally most chasidim typically believe their Rebbe can be moshiach.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 10:10:34 PM
1. Show me the gemara
2. prove to me the reason why each one thought their rebi was moshiach was just bec. they were qualified, and they held that if your rebbe is qualified then you should believe he's moshiach.
then i will continue this conversation

PM me :)
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: WhyAich on January 15, 2013, 10:12:17 PM
Additionally most chasidim typically believe their Rebbe can be moshiach.
+1 as I said its a gemara
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 10:16:41 PM
1. Show me the gemara
2. prove to me the reason why each one thought their rebi was moshiach was just bec. they were qualified, and they held that if your rebbe is qualified then you should believe he's moshiach.
then i will continue this conversation
1. Sanhedrin 98b
2. None of them brought any qualification other than that the name matches a Passuk that speaks about Moshiach (yes. Menachem is included)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: SGF on January 15, 2013, 10:28:01 PM
1. Show me the gemara
2. prove to me the reason why each one thought their rebi was moshiach was just bec. they were qualified, and they held that if your rebbe is qualified then you should believe he's moshiach.
then i will continue this conversation
Sounds like a good idea, let's stop it here  :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 15, 2013, 10:32:10 PM
Don't want to get involved but I can tell you that a child of a shliach in a place where many on the forums have been told my wife that he sees the rebbe. You (non believers) can't see him but we can see him
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 10:33:40 PM
Don't want to get involved but I can tell you that a child of a shliach in a place where many on the forums have been told my wife that he sees the rebbe. You (non believers) can't see him but we can see him
Let me guess, Venice?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 15, 2013, 10:35:44 PM
Ding ding ding
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 10:37:09 PM
Let me guess, Venice?
Lemme guess, where is this? Do you see him or is it just me ?
&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 10:37:55 PM
Ding ding ding
Not really shocking, it's no secret he's a great guy, but a wacko nonetheless.
Seems to run among Israelis in particular.  Maybe it's in the water?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 10:39:26 PM
Not really shocking, it's no secret he's a great guy, but a wacko nonetheless.
Seems to run among Israelis in particular.  Maybe it's in the water?
hes the rav hamachshir there, I know many missnagdim that eat there, go figure
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 10:43:48 PM
hes the rav hamachshir there, I know many missnagdim that eat there, go figure
I fail to see how being even from the extreme mishichist camp would affect your kashrus.  Deluded, yes.  But it ain't kfira al pi halacha.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 10:48:34 PM
I fail to see how being even from the extreme mishichist camp would affect your kashrus.  Deluded, yes.  But it ain't kfira al pi halacha.
Maybe not, but trustworthy? Would you invest 20k with the guy
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 10:50:10 PM
Maybe not, but trustworthy? Would you invest 20k with the guy
For the right investment? Being a mishichist wouldn't stop me.  Often they're better jews than I am, they're just misguided IMHO.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 10:56:06 PM
For the right investment? Being a mishichist wouldn't stop me.  Often they're better jews than I am, they're just misguided IMHO.
Dan you invest with goyim? You know they don't believe the same things you do are you crazy??? How can you trust someone who doesn't share your beliefs?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 10:56:19 PM
For the right investment? Being a mishichist wouldn't stop me.  Often they're better jews than I am, they're just misguided IMHO.
I guess im biased, I see a touch of evil in the whole thing. Its just so foreign to everything I believe. the whole thing is weird to me, who led them astray, why, so many questions....
At least you try to be rational.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 10:57:12 PM
I guess im biased, I see a touch of evil in the whole thing. Its just so foreign to everything I believe. the whole thing is weird to me, who led them astray, why, so many questions....
At least you try to be rational.
Did you read this entire thread?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 10:57:49 PM
Dan you invest with goyim? You know they don't believe the same things you do are you crazy??? How can you trust someone who doesn't share your beliefs?
I meant trust the guy with 20k, would you?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 10:59:00 PM
I meant trust the guy with 20k, would you?
Why the heck not? That's my point? What do beliefs have to do with trust?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 15, 2013, 11:00:23 PM
I fail to see how being even from the extreme mishichist camp would affect your kashrus.  Deluded, yes.  But it ain't kfira al pi halacha.
Depends how far you go with it
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:06:27 PM
Did you read this entire thread?
I have, some guys do try to present a sane sounding point of view but its impossible to sway me. I have what I firmly believe to be the absolute truth.
 I still very firmly against chabad hashkafa. If rational people weren't so emotionally invested in chadad... im sure they deep down also doubt the whole entire thing...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 11:07:52 PM
I have, some guys do try to present a sane sounding point of view but its impossible to sway me. I have what I firmly believe to be the absolute truth.
 I still very firmly against chabad hashkafa. If rational people weren't so emotionally invested in chadad... im sure they deep down also doubt the whole entire thing...
Like you said that's your belief. that word is were this argument started and finished.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:08:55 PM
Like you said that's your belief. that word is were this argument started and finished.
Indeed, It all boils down to the 13 principles of faith.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:13:44 PM
Indeed, It all boils down to the 13 principles of faith.
And which one is violated? ???
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 11:16:31 PM
And which one is violated? ???
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm
The one that says you don't believe what I was raised believing so just like Christianity and Islam is wrong so too...

(Even if you show me halachik sources.)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:17:42 PM
This whole thing is all quite funny to me.
We have lots of Lakewooders telling me what I and other lubavitchers believe as if they know the facts and I don't. 
It would be comical if it wasn't so bizarre.  Reminds me of ultra-biased/brainwashed mainstream media coverage of Israel.
The 99% believe nothing of the venom/BS that is spewed in this thread.

Yes, Chabad (specifically Israelis) has more than it's fair share of wackos, but they don't speak for chabad HQ or chabad ideology or mainstream shluchim and chassidim worldwide.
Because there are perhaps 10 "elokistim" in the world let's assume that 400,000 Lubavitchers practice kefira. Ya, that makes sense to me too.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:23:26 PM
This whole thing is all quite funny to me.
We have lots of Lakewooders telling me what I and other lubavitchers believe as if they know the facts and I don't. 
It would be comical if it wasn't so bizarre.  Reminds me of ultra-biased/brainwashed mainstream media coverage of Israel.
The 99% believe nothing of the venom/BS that is spewed in this thread.

Yes, Chabad (specifically Israelis) has more than it's fair share of wackos, but they don't speak for chabad HQ or chabad ideology or mainstream shluchim and chassidim worldwide.
Because there are perhaps 10 "elokistim" in the world let's assume that 400,000 Lubavitchers practice kefira. Ya, that makes sense to me too.
Since many aspects of the movement are questionable, why not just stay away.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
This whole thing is all quite funny to me.
We have lots of Lakewooders telling me what I and other lubavitchers believe as if they know the facts and I don't. 
It would be comical if it wasn't so bizarre.  Reminds me of ultra-biased/brainwashed mainstream media coverage of Israel.
The 99% believe nothing of the venom/BS that is spewed in this thread.

Yes, Chabad (specifically Israelis) has more than it's fair share of wackos, but they don't speak for chabad HQ or chabad ideology or mainstream shluchim and chassidim worldwide.
Because there are perhaps 10 "elokistim" in the world let's assume that 400,000 Lubavitchers practice kefira. Ya, that makes sense to me too.
realize that these wakos are following the same man as you. They just interpreted his teachings a little more extreme way than you.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 15, 2013, 11:26:40 PM
Since many aspects of the movement are questionable, why not just stay away.
The Messiah Problem: Berger, the Angel and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination
realize that these wakos are following the same man as you. They just interpreted his teachings a little more extreme way than you.
They are following the same Torah as you THEREFORE... Don't believe in the Torah right?

These 2 replies are connected.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:27:44 PM
realize that these wakos are following the same man as you. They just interpreted his teachings a little more extreme way than you.
You're right.  Burn the whole movement and all the good its done for the world because there are 10 wackos in the world.  Because no other movement have any wackos anyway.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
Since many aspects of the movement are questionable, why not just stay away.
There's nothing questionable al pi halacha about believing someone you follow to be moshiach.  Problems arise when people use that as an excuse to stop following the laws of our holy torah, thus the problems with yashka and shabtai tzvi.  And why those wacko elokistim are in cherem.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 11:52:11 PM
There's nothing questionable al pi halacha about believing someone you follow to be moshiach.  Problems arise when people use that as an excuse to stop following the laws of our holy torah, thus the problems with yashka and shabtai tzvi.  And why those wacko elokistim are in cherem.
historicaly it a slippery slope to idiolize a human.
Btw even according to you half the movement are wakos albeit not kofrim.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:58:35 PM
historicaly it a slippery slope to idiolize a human.
Btw even according to you half the movement are wakos albeit not kofrim.
Same tired part lines.
1. Nobody (besides the wackos in cherem) is idolizing anyone.
2. I never said half of Chabad are wackos. Don't twist my words.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 12:05:37 AM
I fail to see how being even from the extreme mishichist camp would affect your kashrus.  Deluded, yes.  But it ain't kfira al pi halacha.
As long as the guy's not an elokist, i never really understood how thinking a dead person is moshiach can be called kefira. I do admit there are some in my camp who believe it's kefira, i have no clue where they're coming from.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:10:27 AM
As long as the guy's not an elokist, i never really understood how thinking a dead person is moshiach can be called kefira. I do admit there are some in my camp who believe it's kefira, i have no clue where they're coming from.
Finally.  A non-baiting post.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:10:36 AM
Has anything good come out of this thread?
Seems to me that nobody is going to change anyone's mind even one iota.

Should I lock it?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 16, 2013, 12:11:35 AM
I support that motion
Maybe just delete it altogether
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: robi on January 16, 2013, 12:15:05 AM
I actually found it interesting and a bit informative
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moko on January 16, 2013, 12:16:22 AM
I found it entertaining
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 12:16:32 AM
Has anything good come out of this thread?
Seems to me that nobody is going to change anyone's mind even one iota.

Should I lock it?
Maybe the fact that nothing good came out is a good reason to leave it as testament.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:18:10 AM
I actually found it interesting and a bit informative
If you don't mind my asking, what's your background and what did you find useful?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Saver2000 on January 16, 2013, 12:19:16 AM
I actually found it interesting and a bit informative
+1
Although the posts with specific names were a little much.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 12:20:18 AM
I learned that many lubavitchers today have moderated their views about the Rebbe and Moshiach. This gives me great hope for the future of Chabad, the Chassidus founded by the Shulchan Aruch Harav, whom i'm absolutely obsessed with his shulchan aruch , and the gaonus that lies inside of it. I definitely was educated by this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: robi on January 16, 2013, 12:24:01 AM
If you don't mind my asking, what's your background and what did you find useful?
i come from a Hungarian background, so chassidus isn't foreign to me, but went to (very) litvish yeshivas. Some of our closest family friends are lubavitch. And
I learned that many lubavitchers today have moderated their views about the Rebbe and Moshiach. This gives me great hope for the future of Chabad, the Chassidus founded by the Shulchan harav. I definitely was educated by this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 16, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
1. Sanhedrin 98b
2. None of them brought any qualification other than that the name matches a Passuk that speaks about Moshiach (yes. Menachem is included)
Not so pashut that that is the correct pshat in the gemara
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 16, 2013, 03:10:06 AM
It's pointless arguing with people like him.  That type will enjoy a minyan with fresh food in Timbuktu and then spit on their way out.  I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.
pretty funny that you refer to "people like him," without knowing a thing about "people like him" other than that he thinks your ideology is problematic and that your rebbe wasnt the nasi hador.            unlike some people around here, i don't believe in bashing behind peoples backs, and if i wanted to spit, i would do it on the way in.

i would daven b'yichidus in timbuktu.  and i wouldn't eat the food of mishichists, not anywhere.   now you know a bit more about "people like him"

I fail to see how being even from the extreme mishichist camp would affect your kashrus.  Deluded, yes.  But it ain't kfira al pi halacha.
because if someone has a din of a tipish/shoteh, then they would not be reliable as far as kashrus is concerned. at least not in my book (or those of many others careful about what they eat).   
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:28:15 AM
no reason to lock the thread.

you have to appreciate the honest debate going on
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 08:13:58 AM
I say Lock the thread, anything civilized that can be said has been said. For sure we can all keep going in circles but the debate level can only deteriorate from here.  ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 08:21:30 AM
I say Lock the thread, anything civilized that can be said has been said. For sure we can all keep going in circles but the debate level can only deteriorate from here.  ;)
so if and when it deteriorates, lock it; why now?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 08:35:50 AM
Im about to take the gloves off  :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 10:08:56 AM
because if someone has a din of a tipish/shoteh, then they would not be reliable as far as kashrus is concerned. at least not in my book (or those of many others careful about what they eat).   
You are fooling yourself if you think you can eat from any hashgacha that does not employ them.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 10:17:50 AM
i would daven b'yichidus in timbuktu.  and i wouldn't eat the food of mishichists, not anywhere.   now you know a bit more about "people like him"
because if someone has a din of a tipish/shoteh, then they would not be reliable as far as kashrus is concerned. at least not in my book (or those of many others careful about what they eat).   
Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 11:58:49 AM
Has anything good come out of this thread?
Seems to me that nobody is going to change anyone's mind even one iota.

Should I lock it?
Keep it open. Some of the discussion may be heated, but it's good to hear rational ppl discussing it.
It's often harder in person, where emotions could quickly take over.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
I actually think it's much healthier in person, which is why I'm inclined to lock this up already.
Everything that needs to have been said has already been said.  Now it's just barbs.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 16, 2013, 01:12:11 PM
Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

now enough with your "castigating hundreds of thousands of jews" which you keep re
Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.
your emotions are getting in the way of your reading before responding.  i said i would not eat the food of a meshichist machshir.    thinking that he might turn out to be meshiach does not make you a meshichist.  there are many and more people that could be meshiach.   thinking that he necessarily is meshiach, makes you a meshchist.         
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
Sorry, but if you asked any meshichist if they would accept R' Shach as moshiach if he were chosen they would all say yes in a heartbeat.  Sure they may want to clarify things with Eliyahu, but that wouldn't hinder them.

Thus nobody truly believes that the Rebbe and only the Rebbe can be moshiach.  And refusing to daven in such a person's shul or eating their food just because of that belief is more foolish IMHO than believing that a holy and learned person to be a strong candidate of being moshiach.  There is nothing halachikly wrong with that belief.

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 16, 2013, 01:26:30 PM
Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 01:27:31 PM
Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?
Excellent, more for me.

Read the entire thread, no point running in circles.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moko on January 16, 2013, 01:28:07 PM
And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw ;)
why would i? sprite is so much cheaper :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 01:30:34 PM
Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?
JJ has quoted a few things. Search for his posts.
I also linked to s/t by R. Student earlier in the thread about the same topic.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 01:35:31 PM
why would i? sprite is so much cheaper :)
Fair enough but I don't think that will qualify for kiddush.

JJ has quoted a few things. Search for his posts.
I also linked to s/t by R. Student earlier in the thread about the same topic.
A decent job as well:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73





Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moko on January 16, 2013, 01:37:23 PM
Fair enough but I don't think that will qualify for kiddush.
darn it. what i do about the past 20 yrs
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 01:41:24 PM
darn it. what i do about the past 20 yrs
Be happy you didn't use Bartenura.  According to the lovely people in this thread you're better off making kiddush on Sprite than trusting a meshichist like R' G.M.G. that Bartenura is kosher.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.
That other chassiduses think their rebbe is moshiach is simply untrue, let's stop repeating this lie.
Almost all jews except for Chabad think that they have no freaking clue who moshiach is, Chabadskers and a few guys that collect by the Kosel think they know who moshiach is.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 01:44:02 PM
That other chassiduses think their rebbe is moshiach is simply untrue, let's stop repeating this lie.
You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moko on January 16, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
ive barely chimed in here (mainly do too the fact that i dont know that much about chabad-despite my mother teaching in a chabad girls school and having many chabad friends and co workers) but i was under the impression that satmar hated chabad more than litvish do and now we have seen both satmar rebbes hosted by shluchim and making mishabeirach donations to them- that would seem to me to be a good thing
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 01:50:41 PM
You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 16, 2013, 01:52:29 PM
Sorry, but if you asked any meshichist if they would accept R' Shach as moshiach if he were chosen they would all say yes in a heartbeat.  Sure they may want to clarify things with Eliyahu, but that wouldn't hinder them.

Thus nobody truly believes that the Rebbe and only the Rebbe can be moshiach.  And refusing to daven in such a person's shul or eating their food just because of that belief is more foolish IMHO than believing that a holy and learned person to be a strong candidate of being moshiach.  There is nothing halachikly wrong with that belief.
you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw ;)
sure don't.   enjoy it.    ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:02:30 PM
You don't need to take my claims, I couldn't care less.  There are over 3,000 chabad houses and 95% of them are not meshichist. Over 99% of chabad houses in the USA are not run by meshichists.  Go across the country and verify that for yourself.

Among the communities that I'm intimately familiar with: There are dozens lubabs in Cleveland and I can attest that I don't know of a single meshichist.  In Pittsburgh there are hundreds of lubabs and there are maybe a couple of meshichists and they don't daven at the only chabad house.

It's no shock that the noisy ones in 770s basement and places like Venice and Tzfas stand out though, after all what would make a regular quiet person be noticed?

To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha. I'd argue that davening without a minyan in that situation as you say you would is definitely against halacha.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: henche on January 16, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
When y'all finish arguing, I hope the one in Cambridge is still ok. Because I eat there most shabbosos.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yare on January 16, 2013, 02:07:41 PM
To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha.
like i said, i have no problem davening with or eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe could be moshiach.   

i do have a problem of davening with and eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe is moshiach.  there is no legitimate halachic basis for that belief.   

seems we're going in circles though.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:10:15 PM
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 02:12:00 PM
And if there are other chassidic groups who believe their rebbe is moshiach then you'll say they are also egoistical and lump them with Chabad. Does it change anything if I tell you other groups that believe their rebbe is/can be moshiach?
btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 02:12:18 PM
but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.
Ok, it looks like we're making some progress here, at least I'm not an outright kofer anymore...

Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

They may not say it publicly, but I hate to break it to you guys...you are dead wrong.  And here is confirmation from someone whom I had the pleasure of meeting and can confirm is most definitely a chosid and not of the lubavitch persuasion.

This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 02:13:40 PM
@Lamdan
Gotta chill w/ your language. It clouds the  points you're trying to make.
And it makes objective readers think lower of the arguments you're presenting.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:13:46 PM
btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?
lol, sorry just Google it. At least I know you really don't know much on this topic or of its history. Don't mean that as an insult just good to know.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:16:32 PM
you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.


Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach and kefira. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:18:40 PM
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73
And from earlier in this thread for the lazy.  I think you'll find this worthwhile reading:

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.(http://s18.postimage.org/j5n0f4i3d/Rav_Hirshprung_Letter.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)gif image hosting (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:19:36 PM
Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l. except for the kefira part, i don't get the shaychus believing someone dead is moshiach. The Rambam says a
person that was "neherag" can't be mashiach, he doesn't say someone who passed away, an intellectually honest litvak has to admit that the lubavitchers have a great diyuk in that rambam, but forget that, what does it have to do with kefira?
If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:20:56 PM
If it's not kefira then how can you justify davening be'yechidus when you can daven with a minyan?
you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:22:38 PM
you're confusing me with someone else, i never said that.
You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:23:37 PM
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.


@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:25:05 PM
Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?
+1.
And if you do then you'll need to stop eating/davening with many chasidim.  Even if they don't publicize it like the chabad meshichistim do.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:25:35 PM
You said "Gam ani mitztaref lehana"l" which included not eating/davening by meshichists.
sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:25:48 PM
@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:27:18 PM
sorry, I am not meztaref to that part either. Just that what you keep on saying that lubavitch and other chasiduses have the same belief regarding "The Rebbe Moshiach Complex", is at best misleading.
How so?
We've got Satmar and Belz on record for having the same beliefs that their Rebbe and leader that they follow is moshiach.
The difference is in the publication.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:28:06 PM
In all fairness the other chasidim don't go out and proclaim it.
I forgive him for not knowing the facts.
Well when someone makes claims in one case and says it with such strong language then it casts doubts on all else he says unless he admits to being "delusional" in that case. Especially when he'd of known the facts had he actually read this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:35:54 PM
Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

And 3 more places from earlier this thread.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

For those interested in an Halachick opinion supporting the idea of the Rebbe being Moshiach after he was niftar, see attched letter from Rabbi Hirshprung A"H, Rav of Montreal.(http://s18.postimage.org/j5n0f4i3d/Rav_Hirshprung_Letter.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)gif image hosting (http://postimage.org/)

I believe this is the article by Schochet you're both referring to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

The Abarbanel, in his authoritative classic entitled Yeshuos Meshicho, (page 104) clearly raises the possibility that Mashiach may be among those resurrected. He cites a passage from Tractate Derech Eretz Zuta: "Nine people entered the Garden of Eden alive ...Mashiach." He explains that according to this view, a righteous individual deemed to be the Mashiach will live, then die on account of the sins of his generation, but will eventually be resurrected.I am a direct descendant of the Abarbanel hence my mesorah is that moshiach can come from the dead. 
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5323/img20120207010201.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/403/img20120207010201.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

(http://www.dansdeals.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/img20120207005234.jpg)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:39:03 PM
And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.
@Lamdan and others- People didn't make a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Everyone did believe he was moshiach. But there is no such thing as moshiach vaday until the beis hamikdash is rebuilt. Just like you say most people don't think about who moshiach is, chabad people before gimmel tamuz didn't think about making a distinction between chezkas moshiach and moshiach vaday. Now that it's a bigger issue and being dissected, it comes out that what everyone besides the tzfatim really believed was he was/is for sure a chezkas moshiach.

This is all tied into what WhyMe pointed out I believe
Why do you insist on equating belief that the rebbe is Moshiach with the belief that he absolutely must be and it cannot be anybody else?
I'm sure you'll claim I'm backtracking and changing the past, and that you know cuz you spoke to people then.

But if you want an answer and I have spoken to people who were there before gimmel tamuz then this will be a satisfying explanation. If you don't want an answer/explanation, then feel free to ignore this post.

ETA- I'd equate before gimmel tammuz beliefs to similar ones of Rabbi Akiva about Bar Kochba. (Who yes was murdered insert diyuk in rambam here;) )
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 02:40:54 PM
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:41:34 PM
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?
Read earlier in this thread. It's been answered.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 02:43:49 PM
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 02:44:52 PM
Why do you think your rebbeh is more the moshiach than the alter rebbeh. I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying that your rebbeh is greater than any tzadik that ever lived? surly amongst the dead there are people much better than him, no?
And the circle turns once again...

How many times was this already answered in this thread?

The Alter Rebbe or any other Tzaddik who ever lived wasn't our Rebbe.
I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:44:58 PM
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?

Are you really going to make me quote it? Dan quoted his own explanation in the past couple days. IIRC it was in response to you asking this question.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:48:05 PM
No it has not. All you guys say is that its only possible etc not for sure etc but why are you picking him?
Because he was ours.  Same goes for the Belz story with their Rebbe.  Moshiach goes by the generation.
As there hasn't been a new Rebbe the children now can choose to adopt him as Rebbe based on his teachings or not, that's their choice.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:48:25 PM
And the circle turns once again...

How many times was this already answered in this thread?

The Alter Rebbe or any other Tzaddik who ever lived wasn't our Rebbe.
I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.
+1
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:49:19 PM
Bechezkas moshiach is not the same thing as saying a possible candidate for moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 02:49:32 PM
I try to imagine if you all were at the rebbes inauguration and debut, where at his first public speech as a young, newly minted rebbe, after studying engineering in college for a few years he basically alluded to the fact that he thinks of himself as the moshiach whether you would have questioned him or be pulled in by his brilliance and charisma?
Now your all to emotionally invested to admit that you where missled. This is my personal opinion, Im sure you'l vehemently argue.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:52:03 PM
Because he was ours.  Same goes for the Belz story with their Rebbe.  Moshiach goes by the generation.
As there hasn't been a new Rebbe the children now can choose to adopt him as Rebbe based on his teachings or not, that's their choice.
Show me where it is stated in any chassidic sefer that there's an inyan to think that YOUR rebbe is mashiach bec. he's your rebbe. And don't tell me the gemara in sanhedrin. And don't tell me a recent chabad sefer.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:54:10 PM
Show me where it is stated in any chassidic sefer that there's an inyan to think that YOUR rebbe is mashiach bec. he's your rebbe. And don't tell me the gemara in sanhedrin. And don't tell me a recent chabad sefer.
I've already said, it's a hergesh that is natural as part of a Rebbe-Chosid relationship.  This isn't something that's printed.
Perhaps you missed this post? I'll repeat for your sake.


You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

They may not say it publicly, but I hate to break it to you guys...you are dead wrong.  And here is confirmation from someone whom I had the pleasure of meeting and can confirm is most definitely a chosid and not of the lubavitch persuasion.

This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

+1

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

Thank you for the confirmation.  As I thought, the difference is very minute-just a question of how the belief is publicized.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:54:16 PM
Bechezkas moshiach is not the same thing as saying a possible candidate for moshiach.
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.
@Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
I seriously want to tell you to just shove it until you admit your delusion.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on January 16, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
And the circle turns once again...

How many times was this already answered in this thread?

The Alter Rebbe or any other Tzaddik who ever lived wasn't our Rebbe.
I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

Does the fact that he was your Rebbe make him more qualified? Or does it make you want it to be him?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:55:29 PM
  @Lamdan- For intellectual honesty in this conversation, can you please admit to being delusional. Truly there is no reason to ever discus this further if you can't do that.
 I seriously want to tell you to just shove it until you admit your delusion.
whats your point?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:55:32 PM
I try to imagine if you all were at the rebbes inauguration and debut, where at his first public speech as a young, newly minted rebbe, after studying engineering in college for a few years he basically alluded to the fact that he thinks of himself as the moshiach whether you would have questioned him or be pulled in by his brilliance and charisma?
Now your all to emotionally invested to admit that you where missled. This is my personal opinion, Im sure you'l vehemently argue.
He never said he was moshiach.  If anything he said that the previous rebbe, his rebbe, was moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 02:56:17 PM
Does the fact that he was your Rebbe make him more qualified? Or does it make you want it to be him?
It's a borderline insane thing, this my rebbe is mashiach. ROFL!! LMAO!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 02:57:52 PM
whats your point?
You said no one besides chabad thinks about who moshiach is. and that you are not delusional. Because you are wrong on this point, just admit that you are delusional then we can move on.

Through out this thread you called many things facts so when your "facts" are wrong admit it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: robi on January 16, 2013, 02:59:40 PM
I don't want to get involved in this quagmire, but a lot of people in Montreal stopped following r' hirshprung zt'l after he wrote that letter, including the rosh yeshiva r motel Weinberg zt'l
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:01:42 PM
You said no one besides chabad thinks about who moshiach is. and that you are not delusional. Because you are wrong on this point, just admit that you are delusional then we can move on.

Through out this thread you called many things facts so when your "facts" are wrong admit it.
I don't agree that chassidim believe their rebbe is mashiach, what part of that don't you understand?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:02:10 PM
I don't want to get involved in this quagmire, but a lot of people in Montreal stopped following r' hirshprung zt'l after he wrote that letter, including the rosh yeshiva r motel Weinberg zt'l
Do they have a response to it?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:02:53 PM
I don't agree that chassidim believe their rebbe is mashiach, what part of that don't you understand?
You're right. SI was lying about his own sect and the other sect he mentioned.
It's funny which stuff you're "mekabel" and which you're not.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:05:45 PM

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw ;)
why not? besides for gorelik, all bartenura is independently certified by the nitra rov, r' weissmandl

joyvin on the other hand...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:06:08 PM
I don't agree that chassidim believe their rebbe is mashiach, what part of that don't you understand?
1. It's not that you don't agree. You said it's a fact and that you aren't delusional, implying I am delusional.
2. Dan quoted other chassidim claiming their rebbe is moshiach. So if you are honest you'd admit your "facts" are wrong and that you are delusional.

For the record also Vizhnits have strong feelings of their Rebbe being moshiach (I am friends with a chossid, who told me this.) also there is a large group of bresslovers who believe their current rav is moshiach (they are polish style not na nach) Some breslovers believe Rabbi nachman is moshiach.

Until you admit what you are clearly completely wrong about, I can not believe anything else you claim to be "facts". If you wouldn't have used such strong wording you can explain it away but you did use strong words...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:08:01 PM
You're right. SI was lying about his own sect and the other sect he mentioned.
It's funny which stuff you're "mekabel" and which you're not.
A rebbe saying by a melava malka that they were so in awe of their rebbe that in their hearts they thought he was mashiach, has nothing to do with this BS, about believing that your rebbe is mashiach bec. he's your rebbe, that's just stand up comedy. ROFL LMAO, that you guys admit that you buy into that ideology, LMAO!!!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:08:56 PM
why not? besides for gorelik, all bartenura is independently certified by the nitra rov, r' weissmandl
I only see gorelik and hazan on my bottle at 2011 Moscato.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: robi on January 16, 2013, 03:09:48 PM
Do they have a response to it?
no clue, i dont get involved in these things
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:10:01 PM
A rebbe saying by a melava malka that they were so in awe of their rebbe that in their hearts they thought he was mashiach, has nothing to do with this BS, about believing that your rebbe is mashiach bec. he's your rebbe, that's just stand up comedy. ROFL LMAO, that you guys admit that you buy into that ideology, LMAO!!!!
To quote you "They don't think about who moshiach is." If they don't think about it then why are they saying it? This is besides the other groups I mentioned.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:10:55 PM
1. It's not that you don't agree. You said it's a fact and that you aren't delusional, implying I am delusional.

I was responding to Dan's accusation that I was delusional. Therefore I wasn't implying that you were delusional.


For the record also Vizhnits have strong feelings of their Rebbe being moshiach (I am friends with a chossid, who told me this.) also there is a large group of bresslovers who believe their current rav is moshiach (they are polish style not na nach) Some breslovers believe Rabbi nachman is moshiach.


As i said, there are a few guys that collect by the kosel who also think they know who mashiach is. LOL!! this ideology is just hillarious!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:11:09 PM
For the record also Vizhnits have strong feelings of their Rebbe being moshiach (I am friends with a chossid, who told me this.)
im pretty sure that is incorrect
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:11:49 PM
I only see gorelik and hazan on my bottle at 2011 Moscato.
on the moscato its on the top of the cork
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 16, 2013, 03:12:03 PM
so if and when it deteriorates, lock it; why now?
I think we've reached this point by now...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:12:50 PM
I was responding to Dan's accusation that I was delusional. Therefore I wasn't implying that you were delusional.As i said, there are a few guys that collect by the kosel who also think they know who mashiach is. LOL!! this ideology is just hillarious!
I can't quote you enough I guess
They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.
Just read what you wrote. What did you say the fact is? What fact did you say you are not delusional about?

And I'm talking about Vizhnitz Monsey.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:16:42 PM
I can't quote you enough I guess  Just read what you wrote. What did you say the fact is? What fact did you say you are not delusional about?

And I'm talking about Vizhnitz Monsey.
You said that if i write that i'm not delusional then i'm implying that you are. that is only true if i brought up the delusional word. but if you read earlier in the thread, dan called me delusional, i was telling him that i wasn't delusional, therefore i wasn't implying that your delusional. You are not delusional, your just desperate, desperate to make believe that chabad's beliefs are mainstream.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moko on January 16, 2013, 03:18:39 PM
now now children
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 03:19:13 PM
I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
You said that if i write that i'm not delusional then i'm implying that you are. that is only true if i brought up the delusional word. but if you read earlier in the thread, dan called me delusional, i was telling him that i wasn't delusional, therefore i wasn't implying that your delusional. You are not delusional, your just desperate, desperate to make believe that chabad's beliefs are mainstream.
I know that other groups besides Chabad believe their rebbe to be Moshiach. So according to you I am delusional. I've explained why I know I'm right and at least you should admit other groups think about it from the above quotes.

The rest of your post was from left field...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:22:07 PM
im not well versed with who mashiach is supposed to be,

but can anyone tell me how ani rochev al chamor falls into the scheme of things?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:22:19 PM
nothing to do with this BS, about believing that your rebbe is mashiach bec. he's your rebbe, that's just stand up comedy. ROFL LMAO, that you guys admit that you buy into that ideology, LMAO!!!!
Real Klassy with a Kapital K.
Laugh your a&* off in the face of what inspires many of your fellow Jews to do good in the world, help their fellow Jews, dedicate their lives to finding one last Jew to put on tefiilin or eat a kosher meal, and try to make this world a place where Hashem would want to dwell and bring moshiach.
Your ahavas yisroel just leaves me feeling all tingly.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:22:31 PM
I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?
no they don't. who the ___ (to quote you) are you to guess who mashiach is?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:23:44 PM
Real Klassy with a Kapital K.
Laugh your a&* off in the face of what inspires many of your fellow Jews to do good in the world, help their fellow Jews, dedicate their lives to finding one last Jew to put on tefiilin or eat a kosher meal, and try to make this world a place where Hashem would want to dwell and bring moshiach.
Your ahavas yisroel just leaves me feeling all tingly.
I think that BS stuff like believing YOUR rebbe is mashiach gives a terrible name to Judiasm - which is a rational faith.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: skyguy918 on January 16, 2013, 03:25:43 PM
I would still love to here from the Chabad folk on this:

I understand why someone would say, this person has all of the simanim of moshiach, plus he's my Rebbe, therefore I want him to be Moshiach. But say there were 100 people in history who have all of the known simanim of moshiach. Why would the fact that one of them is someone's Rebbe make a person think his Rebbe is more likely to be moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: doublejay on January 16, 2013, 03:26:34 PM
Ok here goes nothing:

I don't know much about the topics discussed in this thread but I have always had some opinions on the topic. I feel a bit more informed now that I have read through (most of) this thread.

I like Dan and everyone else here too much.  Why am I getting involved?! ???
I agree that this thread is a bit dangerous as it risks some of the friendships on this board. I like all of you guys.

I don't agree with the following:
Why do I think Moshe Rabeinu, The Ba'al HaTanya, The GR"A or any other Gadol any of us hold dear wouldn't approve of this thread?

Keeping the internet part out of it, I think this discussion is kosher. We are supposed to find truth. I don't believe in respecting and "live and let live" in the extreme sense that people take it to these days. Denouncing what may be misleading/wrong is healthy - obviously in a non-violent and appropriate way.

...back to the topic:

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.

I believe that in many ways, this is the crux of my issue with Chabad (and many other groups and individuals in Judaism). If I have learned one thing in life it is that people who try to figure things out based on their own "research" are on the proverbial "slippery slope". Succesful people in life (not just religion) all have their mentor/guru/rabbi etc..

We simply cannot trust ourselves entirely.

When a group sees no problem with relying on the text and not the non-tangible wisdom of leaders they are already somewhat astray IMO.

As an illustration (not proof) of this point, someone said earlier (don't remember who I am not going to go back through all the pages to find out) that you see many chassidim going to the Rebbe but you will never see a lubavitcher go to another Rebbe for a bracha.  This was said as a positive thing but from an "anti-lubavitch" perspective this type of attitude is viewed as very scary and dangerous.  There have always been many factions within Judaism but Jews from each faction always were machshiv the Gedolim from other factions and considered the various gedolim equal or sometimes even greater than their rebbe, rav etc... even if they were not their mesora and certainly worthy of getting a bracha from. Maybe there was a specific disagreement to a particular gadul, never all of the other gedolim.  Correct me if Im wrong but that doesn't seem to be true with lubovitch. They seem to have held that no one is comparable to the Rebbe at all.  This was not the only issue they have with lubabvitch.  I am not well versed enough or qualified enough to go into all of them I am just trying to explain why that same "disagreement was there before hand".

This point I don't recall seeing responded to in any real way. Cornering yourself into an exclusive club is also a dangerous thing IMO.

Another point I wanted to make is regarding this line that many keep saying about it mashiach being someone who is dead as being within the guidelines of shulchan aruch.  I am no expert in this area of halacha by any means but am I correct that this is not the mainstream halachik view? Assuming I am correct there are many minority shitas all over the place in Torah and halacha, in general we follow the mainstream, accepted halacha unless there is a mesora otherwise. I can't imagine there has been a mesora passed down in lubavitch that they hold mashiach can come from the dead (again corecct me if I am wrong, but that would be really interesting).  So if it is not from mesora where does it come from to place such a strong belief in and emphasis on obscure non mainstream shitas ( i believe this particual point may be similar to the issue that many have with slifkin).

Elit, is on target with his points. Again, similar issue. Chabad seems to be ignoring the concept of Rov and instead is trying to bring texts.


Please, I would love a response to these questions/points. But please don't answer with a diversion or another question. Answer these things head on:

1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.

p.s. This thread is mucho-on-fire. 31 replies while I was typing this post  :o
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:28:01 PM
I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?
+1,000
Frankly I DONT CARE who moshiach is and neither to most lubabs.
Nor do I care that some lubabs think that he is moshiach.
This is not a halachic question, GET OVER IT and live your life as a good loving jew.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 03:28:17 PM
no they don't. who the ___ (to quote you) are you to guess who mashiach is?

Let me revise:

Everybody has their right to guess who the manhig hador is.
And according to chaiddeshe sforim, he is going to be mashiach...

I'm not at all about doing any PR of mashiach because of this, but I don't see why you people care.

PS. I ain't a chabdnik

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 03:29:43 PM
Did R. Soleveitchik really sign that?
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/ras.html

"I don't believe it. I don't believe it. It is incredible," Rabbi Soloveichik exclaimed when informed of the words of Rabbi Butman and others in Crown Heights about the imminent return of the Rebbe as Moshiach. The world-renowned rabbi said flatly that "there is no possibility whatsoever" that Menachem Mendel Schneerson would emerge from the dead to be the Messiah. "That could be possible in the Christian faith, but not Judaism."
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 03:31:29 PM
what the hell do you care?
B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:35:11 PM
B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.
Stop mischaracterizing what this is.

All of those movements have sought to abolish torah u'mitzvos and that was their problem.
Chabad keeps very high standards (C"Y, non-gebroktz, P"Y, B"Y, 6 full hours, not using an eruv, not trimming the beard, full 49 days of sefira restrictions, not even drinking outside a sukkah, etc, etc) and would never dare abolish anything.

This is not 1 loony source in halacha.  There are dozens of sources in Halacha and there IS NO so-called long accepted P'sak that moshiach must be from the living.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 03:37:42 PM
Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?

B/c unfortunately, Jewish history has witnessed the dangers of unchecked messianic movements. And no one wants anything similar to happen again.
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:38:42 PM
1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.
This has all been covered ad nasueum, read the thread. But in short.
1. There is noone capable or willing too take over.
2. Is pure BS drivel. Go study in a chabad yeshiva for a week.
3. Read the thread, I'm not tacking this BS another time.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 03:41:42 PM
He never said he was moshiach.  If anything he said that the previous rebbe, his rebbe, was moshiach.

From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)

"Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo brought up the issue in 1984 by publishing a booklet declaring Schneerson to be the Messiah.[25] Schneerson responded by writing "It has come to pass that because of his [Wolpo's] activities ... hundreds of Jews have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality. It appeared to some that the Rebbe finally approved of the declaration of the Rebbe as Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated Yechi also on the hebrew date of the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."[26]

In fact, however, several months later on the 4th Cheshvan 5752, at a farbrengen (Chassidic gathering) on Shabbat Parshat No'ach, the Rebbe publicly admonished those who were singing that song. He threatened to leave the farbrengen, and only stayed so that it would not dissipate (source cited below in note 67)."

@chabad
Another question. When I see ppl wearing the yechi adonaini kippas, does that mean that they from from a more meshicist background, or do the regular lubavitchers wear them also?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.
The first heartwaming thing from this entire thread.
Seeing our sects get along :)

This is what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread.  The litvaks pretend this their only beef is against chabad, but it's still the same old tired fights that misnagdim have had on the Rebbe-Chosid relationship since the BS"T.
The extremists in Chabad are just more vocal because they believe that being vocal about it will hasten moshiach's coming.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:44:50 PM
From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)

"Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo brought up the issue in 1984 by publishing a booklet declaring Schneerson to be the Messiah.[25] Schneerson responded by writing "It has come to pass that because of his [Wolpo's] activities ... hundreds of Jews have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality. It appeared to some that the Rebbe finally approved of the declaration of the Rebbe as Messiah at a public talk on the 6th of Iyar 1991 when young Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and others repeated Yechi also on the hebrew date of the 15th of Iyar the Rebbe for the first time encouraged the singing of "Yechi", the slogan about the Rebbe being the Messiah."[26]

In fact, however, several months later on the 4th Cheshvan 5752, at a farbrengen (Chassidic gathering) on Shabbat Parshat No'ach, the Rebbe publicly admonished those who were singing that song. He threatened to leave the farbrengen, and only stayed so that it would not dissipate (source cited below in note 67)."

@chabad
Another question. When I see ppl wearing the yechi adonaini kippas, does that mean that they from from a more meshicist background, or do the regular lubavitchers wear them also?
Thanks for the history lesson.

Only meshichists wear them.  They believe that it will hasten the coming of moshiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: doublejay on January 16, 2013, 03:47:11 PM
This has all been covered ad nasueum, read the thread. But in short.
1. There is noone capable or willing too take over.
2. Is pure BS drivel. Go study in a chabad yeshiva for a week.
3. Read the thread, I'm not tacking this BS another time.

1) My issue isn't "I know who should be your rabbi and you aren't appointing him". It is:
Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.


2) In the chabad yeshiva - do the current gedolei hador come and secretly visit? B/c if not you haven't answered the question of why don't they go shake their hands the way the rest of klal yisroel does.

3) Again, should just make you a bit uncomfortable when paired together with the fact that there is no current Rav that you are relying on anything but very accepted stuff.  The idea that mashiach can be a figure from Jewish History is certainly not mainstream.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 03:47:14 PM
Stop mischaracterizing what this is.

I never compared it to any of the movements. I'm simply explaining why ppl would be concerned, b/c when these things become unchecked, they become uncontrollable.
Listen, Judaism has a gezairah for almost every little halachik detail in life. It shouldn't come as a surprise that s/t this unique would cause ppl to want to create boundaries to control it as well.

2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.
In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:47:21 PM
1) How can you ignore the wise who all say that a live Rebbi is a non-negotiable need?
2) Why is there very little interest in the wisdom and torah of any live Rebbi in any other circle of Judaism?
3) Why are you comfortable with words you find in the texts that support your thoughts when we all know that practically anything can be found in the texts - we need concepts such as mesorah, rov, and rabbeim to help us navigate all the data.
You seem very earnest in your questions unlike many here. So although most were answered in this thread I will attempt to answer them somewhat here just for you.

 1. Chabad has their rabonim, others have their rabonim. Same way Chabad doesn't eat chalav stam ecen though many rabonim say it's ok.

2. Says who? That is a bad stereotype. Besides that there is so much to learn from within Chabad itself which could take a lifetime, why wouldn't the focus be from their own teachers? If you learn in one school why wouldn't you give that school your focus?

3. Mostly this thread was defending a concept as not being kfira, by asking this question you are agreeing that the ideology has a source in halacha, you just want to know why to choose that source. Like in number 1. Chabad has their rabbanim and they can choose where a halacha comes from. The idea of moshiach from the dead is not a daily topic of old, so like most modern halachas there isn't necessarily a handed down mesorah of who to follow, hence a Rav I believe has some room in this matter to find his own source. Do you have a mesorah fro  your zayde moshiach must come from the living. I'd be fascinated to see it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:48:24 PM
all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 03:50:34 PM
all those sources, dont say that chassidim should believe that THEIR rebbe is mashiach. That the tzadik hador hador is  mashiach is irrelevant to the conversation.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:51:34 PM
In the US, I agree. In Israel, they are quite open about trying to convince other ppl.
This actually goes back to the conversation I had with the weirdo in which he told me that the Rebbe will only return as moshiach if enough ppl recognize him as such. Therefore, their mission is to convince ppl of the veracity of his return. Hence all the posters and the desire for them to engage ppl in discussion.
You met a wacko, unfortunately they make a lot of noise and there's not much anyone can do about them.
To be perfectly clear: Chabad HAS NO SUCH GOALS.
The only goals we have are the ones our Rabbeim and the BS"T gave us.  To make this world a dwelling for hashem by spreading chassidus and getting people to do more mitzvos and that is what will hasten moshiach's coming.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 03:52:36 PM
You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.
It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 03:58:22 PM
It's not just a right, it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
CMIIW.
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 03:58:52 PM
there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan

you are saying they are all meshichists?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 03:59:29 PM
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
Neither does Lubavitch. Maybe now are getting somewhere. Nor is any of this even close to the surface of what chassidis is all about, or the purpose of it.

ETA- In my 8 years of yeshiva I heard talks of the Rebbe being moshiach from my Rebeim close to nil. Chassidis shiurim I heard hours every day. This is the saddest part to me. People thinking this is an essential part of chabad.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on January 16, 2013, 04:01:09 PM
From the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
(btw, this appears to be a very good history of the issue, and quite fair as well)
On reading through the whole thing, it's definitely tilted against the chabad side since it only quotes from the rabbi's against the meshicist movement.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
I will correct you.  No other chassidus besides lubavitch thinks it's an essential part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship to think he's mashiach.
But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 04:03:56 PM
But to thing he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach
Oh come on now, you're ruining the litvaks fun by bringing the non-lubavitch chasidic perspective in this :D

It's much easier to pick on the little guy who's always belittled (Chabad) than to take on the entire chasidic world again.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 04:06:46 PM
Oh come on now, you're ruining the litvaks fun by bringing the non-lubavitch chasidic perspective in this :D

It's much easier to pick on the little guy (Chabad) than to take on the entire chasidic world again.

Lol

After all "Yufutzu" is a part of the entire chasiddus, and was told to the baal shem tov not to the baal hatanya, so we all have to do our part...  :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 04:08:45 PM
After all "Yufutzu" is a part of the entire chasiddus, and was told to the baal shem tov not to the baal hatanya, so we all have to do our part...  :)
:) indeed.

OT, but Is the niggun "Aimosai k'osi mar, l'cheshyafutzu maynosecha chutzah" a lubavitch one or from another composer?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Side incomer on January 16, 2013, 04:12:15 PM
:) indeed.

OT, but Is the niggun "Aimosai k'osi mar, l'cheshyafutzu maynosecha chutzah" a lubavitch one or from another composer?

Almost sure it's lubavitch, but no source to that. haven't heard that anywhere else yet.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 04:35:50 PM
He never said he was moshiach.  If anything he said that the previous rebbe, his rebbe, was moshiach.
He implied many times that he is somehow an embodiment of his father in law. Sounds nuts but that what iv heard from reliable chabad ppl. Obviously many belive this as their bases of thinking he's the messia based on him saying that his father in law was/is etc_ He did mostly speak cryptically, hence so many confused chassidim. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 04:36:52 PM
He implied many times that he is somehow an embodiment of his father in law. Sounds nuts but that what iv heard from reliable chabad ppl. Obviously many belive this as their bases of thinking he's the messia based on him saying that his father in law was/is etc_ He did mostly speak cryptically, hence so many confused chassidim. 
Embodiment of his father in law? Please provide sources, not hearsay.

I've learned his sichos and maimorim for years.  They're not cryptic at all. Open a likutei sichos on the parsha in hebrew sometime for yourself, you may just enjoy yourself.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 16, 2013, 04:51:59 PM
Wow! This thread sure is active, I go out for an hour and  I miss 5 pages.

I just wanted to address 1 very valid point which was raised:


I believe that in many ways, this is the crux of my issue with Chabad (and many other groups and individuals in Judaism). If I have learned one thing in life it is that people who try to figure things out based on their own "research" are on the proverbial "slippery slope". Succesful people in life (not just religion) all have their mentor/guru/rabbi etc..

We simply cannot trust ourselves entirely.

When a group sees no problem with relying on the text and not the non-tangible wisdom of leaders they are already somewhat astray IMO.


Relying on your own judgement is indeed very dangerous, that is why the Rebbe (tried) to prevent that from happening. In the years between 5748 (when the Rebbetzin passed away) and 5752 (When he had his stroke) the Rebbe was very intensively preparing for a time when he would no longer be around physically (of course Chassidim refused to realize that and only woke up when it was too late).

One of the things that the Rebbe spoke about a lot in those years, was for the Chassidim to stop relying on him for their questions and instead appoint a 'Mashpia' who would be their mentor in all things Ruchnius. This system has been in place for generations before but in the years before Gimmel Tammuz the Rebe got really intensive about it. Calling it a Bakashah Nafshis for every Chossid to appoint a Mashpia with whom he can consult in matters of Avodas Hashem.

Chassidim nowadays do not rely on their own judgement and understanding of texts, each Chossid has (in addition to his Rov, Rosh Yeshivah etc.) a Mashpia. As you mentioned the texts are very inconclusive to someone trying to make it out on his own but we don't get our Hashkafah directly from the texts alone.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: doublejay on January 16, 2013, 04:59:53 PM
You seem very earnest in your questions unlike many here. So although most were answered in this thread I will attempt to answer them somewhat here just for you.

 1. Chabad has their rabonim, others have their rabonim. Same way Chabad doesn't eat chalav stam ecen though many rabonim say it's ok.

2. Says who? That is a bad stereotype. Besides that there is so much to learn from within Chabad itself which could take a lifetime, why wouldn't the focus be from their own teachers? If you learn in one school why wouldn't you give that school your focus?

3. Mostly this thread was defending a concept as not being kfira, by asking this question you are agreeing that the ideology has a source in halacha, you just want to know why to choose that source. Like in number 1. Chabad has their rabbanim and they can choose where a halacha comes from. The idea of moshiach from the dead is not a daily topic of old, so like most modern halachas there isn't necessarily a handed down mesorah of who to follow, hence a Rav I believe has some room in this matter to find his own source. Do you have a mesorah fro  your zayde moshiach must come from the living. I'd be fascinated to see it.

Appreciate the response.

1) So do you disagree with Dan?
A. Because we don't want a new leader, we want moshiach, and believe he will come every day as we are commanded to.

Anyway why does a leader have to be living? We have a leader, he left behind hundreds of seforim on nigleh and chassidus, along with instructions on how to be a good Jew and love your fellow jew, and how to make this world a dwelling place for Gd, at which point moshiach's promise to the Baal Shem Tov will come true.

2) I am not saying that you should go learn Torah from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Abuchatzeira, The Belzer Rebbe, or Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, etc. just appreciate [at least some of these Rabbanim and] their greatness enough to visit them, shake their hands, ask for a bracha, etc. Go to their asifos. Their siyumim. etc. Don't separate. - Are you saying I am dreaming when I feel that this is the case?

3) For now, I'd like to avoid the "is it kefira question" because then it just turns into a scholarly debate and I am no scholar. I think people get lost in the micro when they should be thinking macro.

Bottom line, I would be really weary of being in the boat of a group with the issues in points 1 & 2. - If we can clear those up and you show me that they are non-issues and I am mistaken then I will think more on issue #3 and post my thoughts.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 05:05:17 PM
Appreciate the response.

1) So do you disagree with Dan?
2) I am not saying that you should go learn Torah from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Abuchatzeira, The Belzer Rebbe, or Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, etc. just appreciate [at least some of these Rabbanim and] their greatness enough to visit them, shake their hands, ask for a bracha, etc. Go to their asifos. Their siyumim. etc. Don't separate. - Are you saying I am dreaming when I feel that this is the case?

3) For now, I'd like to avoid the "is it kefira question" because then it just turns into a scholarly debate and I am no scholar. I think people get lost in the micro when they should be thinking macro.

Bottom line, I would be really weary of being in the boat of a group with the issues in points 1 & 2. - If we can clear those up and you show me that they are non-issues and I am mistaken then I will think more on issue #3 and post my thoughts.
1. Its my understanding that Dan replied with a misunderstanding of your question. I don't think our answers have a connection. 

2. ROFLMAO!!! Do we go to their siyumim? Did you really just ask me if we go to their siyumim. I can't anymore I just can't.

3. OK I'll wait.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on January 16, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
And 3 more places from earlier this thread.

Thanks. The abarbenel is very clear. The gemara in sanhedrin, according to one deah in rashi has no relevance, yesh layein what the other deah holds. I hope to look up the other mareh mekomos later. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on January 16, 2013, 05:28:39 PM
I'd like to point out that in 700+ posts there hasn't been one halachik source from a Rishon or Achron saying moshiach must be from the living.

Also some more food for thought.

 (Sanhedrin 98b):

"Rav said 'If he [Moshiach] is from the living, [then he is] like Rabbeinu Hakadosh [Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi]; if he is from the dead, [then he is] like Daniel, the delightful one.' " (also See Maharsha).

Based on the Talmud quoted above, the Sdei Chemed--an encyclopedic work by the renowned Halachic authority Rabbi Chaim Chizkiya Medini--quotes approvingly (Pe'as Hasadeh, Maareches Ha'alef, 70) a long letter by Rabbi Aryeh Leib Lipkin (grandson of "Hagahos Ben Aryeh" published in Vilna ShaS), where he explains--among other fascinating points concerning the ultimate Redemption--that if we have sufficient merit, then Moshiach will be "from the dead"!

The Midrash (Bamidbar Rabba 11:3) says that the future Redeemer will be revealed, then concealed, then revealed again. This is quoted by Rabbeinu Bachayei and by the Chasam Sofer on the Torah (both at end of Parshas Shmos). The latter writes: "This is a great test that the Redeemer is concealed [Moshe] . . . and so it will be at the time of our righteous Moshiach [that] he will be concealed after [his] revelation, as mentioned in the Midrash."

From the Zohar (Shmos 8b)--as explained in Zohar Harakiya and Shaar Hagilgulim (ch. 13, both by the ARI-Zal, Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, one of the greatest Kabbalists)--it is clear that the man designated to be Moshiach is born naturally in this world, then the soul of Moshiach in the heavenly "Garden of Eden" is bestowed upon him so that he realizes that he is Moshiach, then he becomes concealed, ascending to heaven, and only afterwards is he revealed to the full extent, the whole Jewish people recognizing him as Moshiach.

The great Torah commentator and philosopher, Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (1437-1508), who wrote three lengthy works about the Scriptural prophecies and our Sages' sayings concerning Moshiach and the Geula, writes in Yeshuos Meshicho (Jerusalem, 5753, p.104) that it is possible that Moshiach will be taken from this world and brought into the heavenly "Garden of Eden," continuing: "You should not find it difficult [to understand] that the King Moshiach will be among those who arise in the Resurrection," quoting the above Talmudic passage (Sanhedrin 98b) as proof that this can be so. Here we see the same three stages of revelation, concealment and revelation.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
2. ROFLMAO!!! Do we go to their siyumim? Did you really just ask me if we go to their siyumim. I can't anymore I just can't.
:)) :))
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 05:33:15 PM
Trivia question: How was the rebbe called up to the torah, what names did he have the gabboim use?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 16, 2013, 05:41:27 PM
יעמוד אדונינו מורנו ורבינו בן הרב לוי יצחק
Why? How do other Chassidim call up their Rebbes?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:09:43 PM
יעמוד אדונינו מורנו ורבינו בן הרב לוי יצחק
Why? How do other Chassidim call up their Rebbes?
you sure or did the also mention his shver?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:23:19 PM
"Since the passing of his father in law, the Rebbe had often quoted the passage in the Holy Zohar that "a tzaddik, when he passes away, is to be found more in this lowest world than during his lifetime on earth." This was said to prove that the Rebbe is still available to be reached and still operates as the head of Chabad-Lubavitch. Moreover, he was/is the head (Nasi) of the klal Israel (entire Jewish People). [79] Some saw this as attempting to counter disbelief in the idea that passing away invalidates a candidate to be Moshiach."
-from wiki.
Basically he used to imply that;
A His shver is still around
B: His shver is the Nosi/Moshiach
C:that he (himself) is the Nosi/Moshiach
He caused all the confusion among all his chassidim, some think he's still alive, all think he's moshiach, and a few think he's more powerful than a mere human...
He consistently confused the masses with (what some believe to be nonsense and gibberish) about secret worlds and mystical concepts way above the pay-grade of the average chossid. This caused many to become enchanted and solidified his power base.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 06:31:42 PM
He consistently confused the masses with (what some believe to be nonsense and gibberish) about secret worlds and mystical concepts way above the pay-grade of the average chossid. This caused many to become enchanted and solidified his power base.
I advise you to delete this (and apologize) before this thread gets way out of hand.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 06:33:00 PM
you sure or did the also mention his shver?
Lies, lies, and more lies.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 06:34:12 PM

2) Their siyumim. etc.
ROFL! Asked to the perfect person!
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/23143
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 06:40:24 PM
Basically he used to imply that;
A His shver is still around
B: His shver is the Nosi/Moshiach
C:that he (himself) is the Nosi/Moshiach
He caused all the confusion among all his chassidim, some think he's still alive, all think he's moshiach, and a few think he's more powerful than a mere human...
He consistently confused the masses with (what some believe to be nonsense and gibberish) about secret worlds and mystical concepts way above the pay-grade of the average chossid. This caused many to become enchanted and solidified his power base.
A. His shver was his Rebbe and he lived on through his teachings.
B. His Shver was his Nosi/Manhig Hador and thus his moshiach. No chiddush there.
C. He never implied that.  However as Side Incomer has already proven, chassidim hold their Rebbe to be the Nosi/Manhig HaDor and that is the Moshiach of that generation.
This is nothing new and not specific to Chabad!


He caused no such confusion  Secret worlds? It's called basic kaballah and chasidus.  Any chosid worth his salt can tell you about the worlds Aztilus, Briya, itzira, and Asiya.  About Atik Yomin and Aruch Anpin. About Makif and Sovev. About Atzmus Ain Sof.  What the hell does that have to do with this?

No sane person thinks him to be anything more than human.  Chassidim beleive their leader can be moshiach, I know, that was apparently a shocker to many of you today and I sincerely thank SI for stepping forward from the other side of the chasidic fence to confirm that.

Your lies are getting really pathetic.
Instead of continuing this thread any further (for what purpose is beyond me, you'll convince noone of anything) maybe do something more constructive than try to tear down a holy person with silly lies. 
Stop wasting time worrying about what other people are thinking!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 06:41:08 PM
On the plus side, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel by now with the taanos against lubavitch. We're all the way down to nitpicking on how the Rebbe was called up to the torah...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:51:52 PM
A. His shver was his Rebbe and he lived on through his teachings.
B. His Shver was his Nosi/Manhig Hador and thus his moshiach. No chiddush there.
C. He never implied that.  However as Side Incomer has already proven, chassidim hold their Rebbe to be the Nosi/Manhig HaDor and that is the Moshiach of that generation.
This is nothing new and not specific to Chabad!


He caused no such confusion  Secret worlds? It's called basic kaballah and chasidus.  Any chosid worth his salt can tell you about the worlds Aztilus, Briya, itzira, and Asiya.  About Atik Yomin and Aruch Anpin. About Makif and Sovev. About Atzmus Ain Sof.  What the hell does that have to do with this?

No sane person thinks him to be anything more than human.  Chassidim beleive their leader can be moshiach, I know, that was apparently a shocker to many of you today and I sincerely thank SI for stepping forward from the other side of the chasidic fence to confirm that.

Your lies are getting really pathetic.
Instead of continuing this thread any further (for what purpose is beyond me, you'll convince noone of anything) maybe do something more constructive than try to tear down a holy person with silly lies. 
Stop wasting time worrying about what other people are thinking!
I agree, lock it.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:54:05 PM
Lies, lies, and more lies.

OMG LISTEN TO WHEN THEY CALL HIM UP AT 1:00
I was right!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:55:46 PM
Lies Lies Lies? Yaamod Moreinu verabeinu Horave yosef Yitzchak. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 06:56:17 PM
OMG LISTEN TO WHEN THEY CALL HIM UP AT 1:00
I was right!
??? If you need your hearing checked I know some good audiologists.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 06:56:32 PM
btw whats "gimmel tamuz"?
Depends who you ask.  Some will say it's the day the Rebbe left the hospital :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 06:56:50 PM
OMG LISTEN TO WHEN THEY CALL HIM UP AT 1:00
I was right!
Lies Lies Lies? Yaamod Moreinu verabeinu Horave yosef Yitzchak. 

Are you joking?
They said "יעמוד אדונינו מורנו ורבינו בן הרב לוי יצחק"

Remind me to stay far away from whatever it is that you're on.  Just goes to prove how people with an agenda will twist anything.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan

you are saying they are all meshichists?
Yes! like all of crown heights!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 06:58:40 PM
Depends who you ask.  Some will say it's the day the Rebbe left the hospital :P
Who?  Find me one person.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 06:59:01 PM
Wow! This thread sure is active, I go out for an hour and  I miss 5 pages.

I just wanted to address 1 very valid point which was raised:Relying on your own judgement is indeed very dangerous, that is why the Rebbe (tried) to prevent that from happening. In the years between 5748 (when the Rebbetzin passed away) and 5752 (When he had his stroke) the Rebbe was very intensively preparing for a time when he would no longer be around physically (of course Chassidim refused to realize that and only woke up when it was too late).

One of the things that the Rebbe spoke about a lot in those years, was for the Chassidim to stop relying on him for their questions and instead appoint a 'Mashpia' who would be their mentor in all things Ruchnius. This system has been in place for generations before but in the years before Gimmel Tammuz the Rebe got really intensive about it. Calling it a Bakashah Nafshis for every Chossid to appoint a Mashpia with whom he can consult in matters of Avodas Hashem.

Chassidim nowadays do not rely on their own judgement and understanding of texts, each Chossid has (in addition to his Rov, Rosh Yeshivah etc.) a Mashpia. As you mentioned the texts are very inconclusive to someone trying to make it out on his own but we don't get our Hashkafah directly from the texts alone.
Or just put your request in the iggros to get your answer
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 06:59:09 PM
definitely did not say Ben, mumbled the "Levi" part and called him harav yitzchok
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on January 16, 2013, 07:02:47 PM
im not well versed with who mashiach is supposed to be,

but can anyone tell me how ani rochev al chamor falls into the scheme of things?
bump

there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan

you are saying they are all meshichists?
and bump
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 07:03:02 PM
Depends who you ask.  Some will say it's the day the Rebbe left the hospital :P
Who?  Find me one person.
ok maybe nobody says that that, but I have heard it referred to as the day of concealment.  if you refuse to say זצ"ל  or נשמתו בגנזי מרומים then what do you say?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 07:03:07 PM

The guy managed to fumble this one also or do you see a pattern?
Im convinced.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:05:53 PM

The guy managed to fumble this one also or do you see a pattern?
Im convinced.
Wrong, he's just talking in a typical older Lubavitch accent and it's perfectly clear what he's saying. 
And either way his FIL was Yosef Yitzchok, not Levi Yitzchok.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 07:07:48 PM
all the other words besides "Ben Levi" are crystal clear. In both clips.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:08:36 PM
Or just put your request in the iggros to get your answer
Don't make fun of these you don't understand.
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

9. Rabbi Keller objects also to people submitting questions and problems to the
   Rebbe "by writing letters to him and placing them at random in the Rebbe's
   Igros Kodesh," and then considering that page to be an answer. Thus he
   repeats his habitual error: he rejects the verse "Have I not written unto
   you esteemed things of counsels and knowledge" (Mishlei 22:20) as rendered
   in Midrash Tanchuma and Pessikta, and interpreted to mean that one can
   find counsel by random opening of Torah-texts . Before Rabbi Keller is
   tempted to dismiss this, too, as "allegory and metaphor" he should note
   that it is cited literally in Halachic context (see Chida, Birkei Yossef,
   Yoreh Deah 179:6, and his Devash Lefi, s.v. Torah)."
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:09:32 PM
all the other words besides "Ben Levi" are crystal clear. In both clips.
-1, they're perfectly clear to anyone who's familiar with a lubavitch accent.
Either way according to you where's the yosef??
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 07:09:49 PM
besides, you do agree that he felt that his FIL was around and helped him lead right? Is it a stretch that he wanted to get an aliya together?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
-1, they're perfectly clear to anyone who's familiar with a lubavitch accent.
Either way according to you where's the yosef??
Its mumbled inaudibly. Clearly ppl would find it strange if he shouted it...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:10:46 PM
ok maybe nobody says that that, but I have heard it referred to as the day of concealment.  if you refuse to say זצ"ל  or נשמתו בגנזי מרומים then what do you say?
Z"YA is standard.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:11:46 PM
besides, you do agree that he felt that his FIL was around and helped him lead right? Is it a stretch that he wanted to get an aliya together?
Even if he did he never would've had them use his real name.
You're really grasping at straws here, quit while you're behind.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: kracked dude on January 16, 2013, 07:11:52 PM
Dan can we add a poll asking what to do with this thread? The options can be something like:
1) Delete the thread
2) Lock at 770 posts
3) Leave as is
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
im not well versed with who mashiach is supposed to be,

but can anyone tell me how ani rochev al chamor falls into the scheme of things?
Not familiar with that.

there are many who wear/chant the yechi slogan
you are saying they are all meshichists?
Yes, though what that means is debatable.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lcyitz on January 16, 2013, 07:19:37 PM
Z"YA is standard.
I would say Standard is Nesi Doireinu
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on January 16, 2013, 07:20:21 PM
Don't make fun of these you don't understand.
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n094.shtml#07

9. Rabbi Keller objects also to people submitting questions and problems to the
   Rebbe "by writing letters to him and placing them at random in the Rebbe's
   Igros Kodesh," and then considering that page to be an answer. Thus he
   repeats his habitual error: he rejects the verse "Have I not written unto
   you esteemed things of counsels and knowledge" (Mishlei 22:20) as rendered
   in Midrash Tanchuma and Pessikta, and interpreted to mean that one can
   find counsel by random opening of Torah-texts . Before Rabbi Keller is
   tempted to dismiss this, too, as "allegory and metaphor" he should note
   that it is cited literally in Halachic context (see Chida, Birkei Yossef,
   Yoreh Deah 179:6, and his Devash Lefi, s.v. Torah)."
Very well written.  This is the piece the Rosh didn't like?  I find it strange when people use the approach and say the Rebbe told me... but just cause I find it strange doesn't make it wrong. 

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on January 16, 2013, 07:21:24 PM
but can anyone tell me how ani rochev al chamor falls into the scheme of things?
What's the question?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:34:48 PM
I would say Standard is Nesi Doireinu
In his seforim? They say ZY"A.
When people talk about his? Then it's The Rebbe.
So what are you referring to?
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lcyitz on January 16, 2013, 07:37:48 PM
In his seforim? They say ZY"A.
When people talk about his? Then it's The Rebbe.
So what are you referring to?
I am speaking about when your average Lubavitcher puts out a Sefer or kuntres (not via Kehos)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
Would you agree that its safe to say that Chabad in general as a whole,  today, are a hashkafikaly confused group, in which there is no consistent and coherent ideology?
If yes, who is to blame?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:41:49 PM
I am speaking about when your average Lubavitcher puts out a Sefer or kuntres (not via Kehos)
It's called being politically correct.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:44:29 PM
Would you agree that its safe to say that Chabad in general as a whole,  today, are a hashkafikaly confused group, in which there is no consistent and coherent ideology?
If yes, who is to blame?
Not at all.
Chabad has a very clearly defined and rich ideology and worldview, to go out and improve the world to bring moshiach through loving your fellow Jew and caring for them no matter what their spiritual standing may be.  To bring people closer to mitzvos through loving hashem, not being scared of his retribution.

For wanting to do mitzvos to be connected to Gd and not for ulterior motives like Gan Eden or avoiding Gehenom.  I can't tell you how excited I was to learn of this positive and upbeat worldview after having been in litvishe schools where we heard mussar shmoozen and trying to avoid burning in hell.  About learning how the world isn't full of evil we had to avoid, but FULL OF POTENTIAL!

That's what originally provoked the criticisms of kiruv and Mussar and "how can you put tefilin on someone in the street," etc, etc and what continues until today by people with an agenda.

That saying Yechi will hasten moshiach is what the meshichistim believe, but that has nothing to do with Chabad ideology.  But neither is it going to be the downfall of Judaism or even against halacha, so don't let it bother you.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 07:44:38 PM
I think it's safe to say that this post has jumped the shark and descended into some weird witch-hunt.

It's doing nothing to change anyone's mind and the discussion is only causing the opposite of ahavas yisroel and helping out your fellow Jew to improve this world.

Thanks again to Side Incomer for enlightening us with alternate views from the other Chasidic courts and for proving that Chabad's belief system is within the realm of standard chasidic thought.

I apologize to anyone I offended, obviously this is a topic that causes very hot heads.  I hope you'll forgive me and I hope you'll be more open-inded and more willing to be dan l'kav zchus as well.

My only plea is that you stop worrying so much about what OTHERS are doing wrong and start worrying about what YOU can do right.

L'chaim.
Title: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on February 02, 2015, 07:56:17 PM
The politics I'm referring to is the yellow flag vs official.
I know this is mostly off topic and I did some searches but couldnt find anything explaining what the issue is R Dan.
I'm a big chabad fan, went to a chabad shul for years plus some gan izzy as a kid, and stayed in the chabad yeshiva in tsfas several times and ate with the peeps, who all were very believing in the Rebbe being mashiach. And i respect their opinion (though i disagree), but is there any actual split in the real governing structure in chabad (assumedly some believe and some dont, but they can work together), or is it like u say that maybe there are now 2 different hierarchies in chabad, the meshichists and non-mashichists and they dont hold of each other? If so, who has more power/who controls 770?
Title: Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 12:02:49 AM
I know this is mostly off topic and I did some searches but couldnt find anything explaining what the issue is R Dan.
I'm a big chabad fan, went to a chabad shul for years plus some gan izzy as a kid, and stayed in the chabad yeshiva in tsfas several times and ate with the peeps, who all were very believing in the Rebbe being mashiach. And i respect their opinion (though i disagree), but is there any actual split in the real governing structure in chabad (assumedly some believe and some dont, but they can work together), or is it like u say that maybe there are now 2 different hierarchies in chabad, the meshichists and non-mashichists and they dont hold of each other? If so, who has more power/who controls 770?

The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yakov116 on February 03, 2015, 08:30:48 AM
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
Thank you for the explanation I never understood it until now

Title: Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
Post by: moko on February 03, 2015, 08:48:18 AM
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, .ein kan hamakom lehaarich.. .
:D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 03, 2015, 09:32:05 AM

And i respect their opinion

You shouldn't.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Emkay on February 03, 2015, 09:38:48 AM
You shouldn't.
This thread is for civil discussions only
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 03, 2015, 09:39:33 AM
I thought this thread was locked? How did this start again?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 03, 2015, 09:44:05 AM

This thread is for civil discussions only

It's civil to try to protect people from false ideologies. I won't post in this thread anymore.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Emkay on February 03, 2015, 09:45:53 AM


I won't post in this thread anymore.
Marvelous
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 09:49:28 AM
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties...
Wow best summary I've seen yet. For the most part it describes the situation on the ground pretty accurately. I only have 2 comments for the whole long Drashah:

Quote
there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
While it's true they that, for the most part, they won't throw out a Shliach from before '94 who says Yechi, the reality is that these days it would be extremely difficult for a vocal Meshichist to find "official" Shlichus. The overwhelming majority of Head Shluchim are not Meshichist and would not hire someone who will say Yechi. Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of "unofficial" Shluchim are Meshichist (the remaining minority are mostly Shluchim who were brought down as official Shluchim, got into a disagreement with their head Shliach and got fired but didn't want to leave their posts).

Quote
(BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it)
AFAIK there was only one time (12 Tamuz 5710, a few months after the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away) where The Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as "Der Rebbe Zohl Gezunt Zein". Though if you look at the Sichah of Rosh Chodesh Sivan 5710 you can see the background to that statement and there The Rebbe qualified it by explaining that he's talking about Ruchniyusdike health. In writing The Rebbe ALWAYS reffered to the Frierdker Rebbe with the title זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע.

Quote
There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
I guess we can all be thankful you decided NOT to be Ma'arich ;D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: aygart on February 03, 2015, 10:29:41 AM
The way this mashpia used it seems to be more in a sense of tzadikim bmisoson keruyim chaim taken a bit emotionally
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: chaimmayer on February 03, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
Maybe this will bring back cbc :D
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: MosheD on February 03, 2015, 12:19:21 PM
I've read this thread cover to cover and would like to thank all for thier patient explanations. (Iirc specifically Dan, JJ100, 1+1, cbs etc)
Also thanks to lybbtthl for his short drasha on the metzius, and to all those that showed us that a civil discussion on a controversial topic is not even a possibility on an online forum.

My one remaining kasha, which I ask with the utmost hesitatance, as I am afraid this will turn into another dogfight... Please either answer the question or add to discussion.
DO NOT THROW POO!!
PLEASE!!

Anyway, how can the rebbe still be considered Nossi Dorienu?
וכי תימא
that he lives on through his seforim and chassidim than the argument about the Baal HaTanya etc comes back. I learn Tanya every day - does that make the Baal HaTanya my rebbe?
I am 22 years old and unfortunately the rebbe zye was niftar when I was two - I don't see how anyone around age can consider the Rebbe THEIR leader - we have no physical memories of him.

ONCE AGAIN - KEEP IT POLITE
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 12:30:08 PM
I've read this thread cover to cover and would like to thank all for thier patient explanations. (Iirc specifically Dan, JJ100, 1+1, cbs etc)
Also thanks to lybbtthl for his short drasha on the metzius, and to all those that showed us that a civil discussion on a controversial topic is not even a possibility on an online forum.

My one remaining kasha, which I ask with the utmost hesitatance, as I am afraid this will turn into another dogfight... Please either answer the question or add to discussion.
DO NOT THROW POO!!
PLEASE!!

Anyway, how can the rebbe still be considered Nossi Dorienu?
וכי תימא
that he lives on through his seforim and chassidim than the argument about the Baal HaTanya etc comes back. I learn Tanya every day - does that make the Baal HaTanya my rebbe?
I am 22 years old and unfortunately the rebbe zye was niftar when I was two - I don't see how anyone around age can consider the Rebbe THEIR leader - we have no physical memories of him.

ONCE AGAIN - KEEP IT POLITE

It's interesting that you are asking this question now. This past Shabbos I was at the Ohel (10 Shvat is the Yahrtzeit of the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Day the Rebbe became Rebbe), and there were over 1000 others there. The overwhelming majority were Bochurim your age or younger who, while they have no personal memories either, are nevertheless influenced by his Seforim, letters, videos, and the memories of their elders. For them the Rebbe is definitely the Nossi.

You ask how can they say the Rebbe is the Nossi HADOR (of the whole generation)? That is a personal belief and one without any נפק"מ in Halachah (except for a Mekadesh Ishah Al Tnai :P). If someone wants to look to someone else as the Nosi Hador Gezunterheit....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: MosheD on February 03, 2015, 01:18:06 PM


overwhelming majority were Bochurim your age or younger who, while they have no personal memories either, are nevertheless influenced by his Seforim, letters, videos, and the memories of their elders. For them the Rebbe is definitely the Nossi.


In that case moshiach can be anyone.
I learn gemara and feel connected to rav or abayei...
I just feel like the word "doreinu" denotes a physical presence...
Also, besides for what the Rebbe said about the Fredieker, (and breslov) , is there a precedent for this idea that a leader would continue to lead after his death. I'm no expert but it seems to me that almost every sect of Judaism elects new leaders, otherwise we'd all still be following Moshe Rabbeinu
   
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 01:28:20 PM

In that case moshiach can be anyone.
I learn gemara and feel connected to rav or abayei...
   
While I learn Gemara too I wouldn't say that my whole worldview has been affected and is built by the teachings of Abayei and Rava...

Quote
Also, besides for what the Rebbe said about the Fredieker, (and breslov) , is there a precedent for this idea that a leader would continue to lead after his death.
I remember this Yerushalmi about Shimshon (Sotah 1:8 ) being quoted in this context, I don't remember if it was brought by the Rebbe or not...

כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל מ' שנה. וכתוב א' אומר (שם) והוא שפט את ישראל כ' שנה. אמר ר' אחא מלמד שהיו הפלשתים יראים ממנו כ' שנה לאחר מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו כ' שנה בחייו:

Even though the Yerushalmi is talking about his effect on the Plishtim, the Possuk quoted says וישפוט את ישראל...


ETA: The Rebbe brough it in the Farbrengen of 12 Tammuz 5711 (Toras Menachem 3 page 186):
Quote
וצריכים לידע שהנהגה זו הולכת ונמשכת גם עתה – שזהו המוסר-השכל בנוגע אלינו:

ובהקדם המדובר כבר אודות ששואלים קושיות בנוגע לענין ההסתלקות כו' – שמצינו בירושלמי (והובא גם בילקוט שמעוני) בנוגע לשמשון, ש"כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל ארבעים שנה, וכתוב אחד אומר והוא שפט את ישראל עשרים שנה . . מלמד שהיו . . יראים ממנו כ' שנה לאחרי מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו כ' שנה בחייו", כלומר, כיון שגם לאחר מותו נמשכה הנהגתו וממשלתו, שהיו יראים ממנו, במשך עוד עשרים שנה, ה"ז חשיב כמו ששפט את ישראל ארבעים שנה.

ואם הדברים אמורים בנוגע לשופט בישראל – עאכו"כ בנוגע לרבי, שכל ענינו של רבי הוא יחידה שבנפש (אלא, שהיחידה שבנפש ממשיך הוא בכל חלקי הנפש ובכל חלקי הגוף), ובנוגע לבחינת היחידה לא שייך כ"כ ענין ההסתלקות ("דאָרטן האָט דער ענין פון הסתלקות אַ סאַך אַ קלענערע שייכות"), ודאי הדבר בפשיטות גמורה שיכול להיות המשך הנהגתו גם לאחרי ההסתלקות כמו בחייו.
Title: Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on February 03, 2015, 01:34:35 PM
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
SHKOYACH (and thanks to dan for moving this over)!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 07:10:12 PM
The way this mashpia used it seems to be more in a sense of tzadikim bmisoson keruyim chaim taken a bit emotionally
that's my point, that everyone who would use Shlit"a has a different level of what they mean, to some it can mean more literal than others.

Take a look at what Rashi says in Daniel 12:12 http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1 (http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1)
To many, this is merely and helem v'hester since almost the entire chabad openly proclaimed Yechi to the Rebbe as early as 1991, the Rebbe would not lie, this can only be the fulfillment of the above Rashi. - This is just one possible opinion, as I said there are many different levels, there are also different levels from what a person actually believes and what he'll actually tell someone he believes...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 03, 2015, 07:14:25 PM


there are also different levels from what a person actually believes and what he'll actually tell someone he believes...

Now that is an interesting line...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 03, 2015, 07:19:48 PM
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 03, 2015, 07:22:59 PM
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
exactly why i found it interesting. Especially to be totally honest i have heard non lubavitch people speculate that about many non-mashichists so it was interesting to hear that from a lubavitcher
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Sport on February 03, 2015, 07:23:04 PM

It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
sometimes it's just not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 07:26:57 PM
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
NOt too many Lubavitchers will lie about what they believe though there are many who won't advertise everything they believe in (case in point, most Jews believe that if they were to find a genuine Ameleki this day they would be obligated to kill him but they won't go pronouncing this belief on the streets...)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 07:33:57 PM
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.

does the same hold true when confronted by an atheist who challenges you to prove G-d exists? you believe it you just don't advertise it too much when around atheists

sometimes beliefs are ruchniyus based and can't be easily explained to people who aren't on the same page as you b'ruchniyus
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 07:35:55 PM
Wow best summary I've seen yet. For the most part it describes the situation on the ground pretty accurately. I only have 2 comments for the whole long Drashah:
While it's true they that, for the most part, they won't throw out a Shliach from before '94 who says Yechi, the reality is that these days it would be extremely difficult for a vocal Meshichist to find "official" Shlichus. The overwhelming majority of Head Shluchim are not Meshichist and would not hire someone who will say Yechi. Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of "unofficial" Shluchim are Meshichist (the remaining minority are mostly Shluchim who were brought down as official Shluchim, got into a disagreement with their head Shliach and got fired but didn't want to leave their posts).
AFAIK there was only one time (12 Tamuz 5710, a few months after the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away) where The Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as "Der Rebbe Zohl Gezunt Zein". Though if you look at the Sichah of Rosh Chodesh Sivan 5710 you can see the background to that statement and there The Rebbe qualified it by explaining that he's talking about Ruchniyusdike health. In writing The Rebbe ALWAYS reffered to the Frierdker Rebbe with the title זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע.
I guess we can all be thankful you decided NOT to be Ma'arich ;D

let me try address a few of your points:

The reason why most Shluchim seem to be more "anti" inclined, is simply because it's a lot easier to take that approach when dealing with outsiders, it's hard to mix spiritual feelings into something physical and practical, you can't tell a non religious Jew that you met that The Rebbe is still alive, he'll look at you like nuts, he watched CNN in 1994 and saw the funeral! but the community of CH is probably more "mishechist" inclined, they lived with the Rebbe and saw him on a daily basis and we all heard the Rebbe say clearly that this is the last generation of Golus and the first generation of Geula. Being on Shlichus, not saying Yechi for the practical reasons will eventually rub off on your own belief and your kids as well, that likely why most shluchim are more 'anti' what else do you tell your balebatim when you host a farbrengen on gimel tamuz?

As far as the Rebbe saying Shlit"a on the Frierdiker Rebbe, there are a few times where the Rebbe said it clearly, Simchas Torah 5711 (Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710(or maybe 5711) page 52, Parshas Vayakhel and Purim 5711, Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5711 vol 1 page 274 and 327. and a few other places. Also in 5752 when the Rebbe had a yechidus with Mordechai Eliyahu, the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with Shlit"a, it wasn't just once. The time you mentioned is when a chosid wrote that in to the Rebbe and the Rebbe said "bemes neheneisi" Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710 page 83.
Another time the Rebbe dismissed people saying nishmaso beginzei meromim, explaining that who are we to tell the Frierdiker Rebbe where he is, why are we separating ourselves from him? he's right here with us! why do we try send him away? (page 106). I don't believe the Rebbe ALWAYS referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע, defintely many times but I wouldn't jump to write always in caps!

I got these page numbers from a compilation someone put together of all the sources for anything to do with Rebbe, Moshiach, Shlit"a etc. The book is only photocopies from seforim, there are no droshos explaining anything, it's just for the reader to see the sources and make his own decisions from there.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 03, 2015, 07:49:35 PM
NOt too many Lubavitchers will lie about what they believe though there are many who won't advertise everything they believe in
Which is why I laid out my beliefs earlier in this thread.

does the same hold true when confronted by an atheist who challenges you to prove G-d exists? you believe it you just don't advertise it too much when around atheists
I happen to know one and harass him every time about the lunacy of believing how the minutiae of this universe could have possibly come together by some freak accident.

If you can't explain and defend your beliefs than you ought to reexamine them.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 03, 2015, 07:51:38 PM
that's my point, that everyone who would use Shlit"a has a different level of what they mean, to some it can mean more literal than others.

Take a look at what Rashi says in Daniel 12:12 http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1 (http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1)since almost the entire chabad openly proclaimed Yechi to the Rebbe as early as 1991
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people say the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

And what do you do with the stories of the Rebbe getting angry with those who dropped yechi pamphlets, etc?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 03, 2015, 07:53:34 PM
you can't tell a non religious Jew that you met that The Rebbe is still alive, he'll look at you like nuts, he watched CNN in 1994 and saw the funeral!
You say that as if most lubavitchers today believe he's walking around somewhere.  He may live on spiritually, but more than that?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 07:56:24 PM
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people said the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 03, 2015, 07:57:54 PM
Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
Seems like that proves the opposite...
And proofs from after the stroke are hardly proofs at all.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 07:59:29 PM
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people said the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

And what do you do with the stories of the Rebbe getting angry with those who dropped yechi pamphlets, etc?

yes, the first time on video was 15 iyar 5751, almost a year before the stroke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0EHmT4rPAg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0EHmT4rPAg)

Interestingly, someone pointed out to me a pattern, whenever someone informed the Rebbe about such a peula, the Rebbe responded with words of encouragement and satisfaction and gave his brochos for continuation, yeilchu michayil el choyil etc. however if someone asked in advance, the Rebbe usually discouraged it, there are also times when people wrote in panim and letters adressing the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, to which the Rebbe responded I'll give it to him when he's nisgaleh, buth there are stories as early as 1964 when a certain chosid sent in a Pan addressed Pan Lcha"k Admu"r Melech Hamoshiach Shlit"A and the Rebbe accepted it. I guess the Rebbe knew their intentions...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 03, 2015, 07:59:59 PM
Yes and the Rebbe was not pleased to say the least (he refused to come down to Shacharis the next morning until he was assured it would not happen).
when are you referring to? In the above video I posted you can clearly see the Rebbe encouraging it
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
when are you referring to?
The same 15 Iyar '51 you referred to in your last post...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dr Moose on February 03, 2015, 09:21:55 PM
what's the whole thing about saying Yechi?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 03, 2015, 09:49:41 PM
what's the whole thing about saying Yechi?
Why dont you read the thread a little because it's discussed through out...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 03, 2015, 09:52:42 PM

If you can't explain and defend your beliefs than you ought to reexamine them.

I don't completely disagree with you at all, but by definition true 'belief' is a suspension of reality and instead is a leap of faith. Now we often use belief when we really mean opinion based on a compilation of facts which is what I think you mean.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dr Moose on February 03, 2015, 10:13:47 PM
Why dont you read the thread a little because it's discussed through out...
there's no point in reading through a thread that's in JS.

I'm just asking for a quick answer, I saw that it was mentioned that some people say Yechi and others don't. I want to know what it symbolizes.
Title: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 03, 2015, 10:15:18 PM
Now we often use belief when we really mean opinion based on a compilation of facts which is what I think you mean.

If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 03, 2015, 10:35:35 PM
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
Just look at the "Facts" section of the wiki on the vaccine thread... :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: VacationLover on February 03, 2015, 11:48:22 PM
I'm not Chabad nor try to understand the complicated Shitas. I just have a quick question are the people who wear a Kippa with the words Yechi... Meshichisten or is it just shticky  to have such a Kippa?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Freddie on February 03, 2015, 11:54:57 PM
I'm not Chabad nor try to understand the complicated Shitas. I just have a quick question are the people who wear a Kippa with the words Yechi... Meshchicheten or is it just shticky  to have such a Kippa?

.הא תו למה לי? היינו הך
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: yehuda S on February 04, 2015, 01:18:22 AM
I'm not sure if this was addressed or not, I didn't read the whole thread; if it was please point me to it.

Can someone explain why the Rebbe never appointed a successor?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 01:35:49 AM
there's no point in reading through a thread that's in JS.

I'm just asking for a quick answer, I saw that it was mentioned that some people say Yechi and others don't. I want to know what it symbolizes.
I'm not sure if this was addressed or not, I didn't read the whole thread; if it was please point me to it.

Can someone explain why the Rebbe never appointed a successor?
All been discussed in this thread.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 04, 2015, 03:39:32 AM
It's a stupid line.
If your beliefs aren't defensible or worth saying when asked then dont believe them.
If you can't explain and defend your beliefs than you ought to reexamine them.

Um, I'm going to have to disagree
sometimes it's just not worth the hassle.
Exactly.
Just because someone may not be willing to waste time arguing every time someone who doesn't know the first thing about Moshiach comes with the same tired, ignorant questions, that doesn't mean they can't defend their beliefs.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Emkay on February 04, 2015, 04:04:40 AM



It's civil to try to protect people from false ideologies. I won't post in this thread anymore.
What happened? Couldn't hold out?
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 04:54:50 AM
I'm not familiar w/ crown heights politics, but this guy seems to do a good job calling out the crazies who try to stir up problems.

https://whoisshmira.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 05:41:27 AM


What happened? Couldn't hold out?

No I couldn't. But I am just asking in general. If X is. Fact how can there be different opinions as to the truth of X?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 04, 2015, 07:59:21 AM
2 questions (that are more sociological i guess than theological): is chazal, haskafa etc?.. On the topic of moshiach av actual like subject taught in chabad schools or all of you know a lot about it because you have just hard it so many times etc... Also as time passes,do the younger generations tend to be less moshiachists,the same or more?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 08:08:49 AM
Also as time passes,do the younger generations tend to be less moshiachists,the same or more?
It's only been 20 years. There haven't been too many generations since then.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 04, 2015, 08:09:39 AM
It's only been 20 years. There haven't been too many generations since then.
Ok generations was the wrong word...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 08:14:45 AM
Ok generations was the wrong word...
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's increased, at least in Israel.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 08:18:41 AM
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's increased, at least in Israel.
I'd say it increased at the extremes while the center is drifting towards the 'anti' side.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 08:27:32 AM
I'd say it increased at the extremes while the center is drifting towards the 'anti' side.
When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Emkay on February 04, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?
He explains the 2
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 08:47:44 AM
He explains the 2
Thx, hadn't read that.
I'd think that those insisting he's dead wouldn't be considered 'extreme', but I guess in relation to those who are more ambivalant, the term might fit.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 08:53:47 AM
Really depends where.
For whatever reason Israel produces nearly all of the real extremists these days.

Ask 100 folks in a OOT anash community today  (come try it in CLE/DTW/PIT when you're here next) )if the rebbe is physically alive and I'd be surprised if you got 1 affirmative response.

That he can be mochiach most would agree, but that he has to be moshiach would be few and far between. At least OOT.

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Drago on February 04, 2015, 09:05:09 AM
In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
You think that's b/c ppl who believe it would be uncomfortable living outside of Israel/CH, and therefore they congregate together?
Or is it that 'out of towners' are more exposed to other streams of frumkeit and have problems wrapping their mind around it?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 09:07:24 AM
Really depends where.
For whatever reason Israel produces nearly all of the real extremists these days.

Ask 100 folks in a OOT anash community today  (come try it in CLE/DTW/PIT when you're here next) )if the rebbe is physically alive and I'd be surprised if you got 1 affirmative response.

That he can be mochiach most would agree, but that he has to be moshiach would be few and far between. At least OOT.

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Are you backing away from this statement?
How egotistical one must be, to presume they know the thoughts of an entire sect.
Newsflash: Nobody thinks that only he can be moshiach or that he must be moshiach to the exclusion of anyone else.  100% of lubavitchers would accept anyone revealed to be moshiach as I've said many times.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 09:23:26 AM
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
You are correct, unfortunately you just have the wrong facts. As can be seen when reading through this thread.

If you don't bring sources and you have no interest in having an open conversation than why bother posting here? Do you think it'll help your cause? Sounding arrogant and putting others down only hurts what you want to accomplish.

Seriously you can't respect someone ones opinion that differs from you?

Are you backing away from this statement?
Elokistim live in CH...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 09:25:02 AM

You are correct, unfortunately you just have the wrong facts. As can be seen when reading through this thread.

Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 09:26:48 AM

In CH and especially in Israel it's another story.
Israel is seriously polarizing on the extremes and they just get more extreme with time. On the one hand you have Elokistn and the Guf Gashmi folks and on the other hand you have those calling for a Dor Hashmini already...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 09:27:16 AM
Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.
You are trying to be witty and it's cute. But see my post edit. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish posting here.

If you don't bring sources and you have no interest in having an open conversation than why bother posting here? Do you think it'll help your cause? Sounding arrogant and putting others down only hurts what you want to accomplish.

Seriously you can't respect someone ones opinion that differs from you?

I thought this thread was locked for good reason.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 09:30:37 AM

You are trying to be witty and it's cute. But see my post edit. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish posting here.

I thought this thread was locked for good reason.

I don't have a cause. I was commenting on someone's use of the terms facts and opinions interchangeably regardless of my thoughts on this individual topic.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 04, 2015, 09:33:07 AM
If something is fact how can there be an opposing opinion?
If you have facts please provide verification.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 09:38:29 AM
Are you backing away from this statement?
No, because all would accept anyone as moshiach if he proved himself.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 09:38:42 AM
Again. If it's a fact it's not wrong. And if it's wrong it's not a fact.
[CITATION NEEDED]
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 09:39:21 AM
I don't have a cause. I was commenting on someone's use of the terms facts and opinions interchangeably regardless of my thoughts on this individual topic.
Seriously? You weren't commenting at all on this topic?

You made a comment that made it seem you were. Hence all the replies you received.

Facts can be taken in many different ways. And people will come out with different beliefs based on the same facts. That seems obvious to me.

If you have facts please provide verification.
I don't think he's saying he has facts for the purposes of this thread, he was commenting on a nuance of a quote he replied to.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: DP7 on February 04, 2015, 09:40:46 AM
Seriously? You weren't commenting at all on this topic?

You made a comment that made it seem you were.


I originally did make a comment, but then moved past it because as you said there's no point. The second was not related to my first.  To be honest I wish all threads on the forums related to anything other than deals/credit cards/trips etc. didn't exist as I don't find them to be productive and regret opening them. Need to have more self control.

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 09:41:50 AM
Let's keep this thread constructive or it'll go back into the depths.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 09:42:37 AM
When you say 'extremes', are you referring to 2 extremes, or just the 1 we're familiar with?

To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 09:46:27 AM

3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."



Cute though in such a highly emotionally charged topic there aren't too many Lubavitchers who don't give. As mentioned previously there are no groups, it's a spectrum and not even a 2 dimensional one...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 04, 2015, 09:50:11 AM
Let's keep this thread constructive or it'll go back into the depths.
Agree. I understand why this thread was locked in the past but it's a shame that a few people ruin it for the majority who want to have a civil and informative discussion. If everyone would just ignore them and not get baited into responding they probably  would stop
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM
Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first

Is the topic of moshiach like chazal,sources hashkafa actually a subject taught/studied in chabad yeshivas or all of you know a lot about it because you have just hard it so many times etc...

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 10:01:16 AM
Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first


In most Yeshivahs it isn't an official subject though it is often brought in as an "extra-curricular" project. That and the fact that when you are stuck having to debate an issue so many times you pick up a pretty good knowledge of the topic...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
Thanks to all for answering my second question gut what about the first


It is embedded and quoted in much of the rebbeim's teachings which is studied daily.

In most Yeshivahs it isn't an official subject though it is often brought in as an "extra-curricular" project. That and the fact that when you are stuck having to debate an issue so many times you pick up a pretty good knowledge of the topic...
You didn't go to inyanei geula umashiach classes after seder ever day? Shameful :P

On second thought there are classes specifically on moshiach offered in most chabad yeshivas.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lunatic on February 04, 2015, 10:04:34 AM
To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 10:05:33 AM

 You didn't go to inyanei geula umashiach classes after seder ever day? Shameful :P


That's extra curricular in my book :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: jj1000 on February 04, 2015, 10:06:44 AM
Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?
No No NO NO!

It is just about as far from central as you can get. Which I tried to stress so many times in this thread. What you believe about the rebbe and mosiach or alive doesn't effect the chabad school of teaching and how to live even one iota IMHO.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 10:07:49 AM
Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?
Bringing moshiach closer is a central chabad belief.  More than that is for the fringes.

The vocal meshichistim believe by publicizing yechi that they will bring moshiach closer.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lunatic on February 04, 2015, 10:18:43 AM
Btw,  I truly don't mean to offend anyone here. Just trying to understand
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 10:28:01 AM
Can you elaborate on #3? How can they be neutral to a topic that seems so central to chabad beliefs?

'twas a joke. The basic idea being as JJ and Dan are saying, the "centrality" of these beliefs within Chabad ideology is mostly imposed by others.


ETA: "Centrality of these beliefs" refers to beliefs of the Rebbe being Moshiach and the need to vocalize and publicize that or not - not Moshiach itself.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 10:28:52 AM
There is a diyuk in the Rambam, who says that if Moshiach is "neherag" he can't be Moshiach, it is very meduyek that if he's "meis" that he still can be Moshiach. It always suprises me that Chabadskers don't bring up that Rambam more often. Any open minded person would be very impressed with that Rambam.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 10:31:46 AM
There is a diyuk in the Rambam, who says that if Moshiach is "neherag" he can't be Moshiach, it is very meduyek that if he's "meis" that he still can be Moshiach. It always suprises me that Chabadskers don't bring up that Rambam more often. Any open minded person would be very impressed with that Rambam.
Which Chabadskers have you been talking to? It's probably THE source used when a Lubavitcher wants to explain why he believes the Rebbe is Moshiach. If we don't bring it up more often it's because we assume that anyone getting into the conversation about who Moshiach is would already know this Rambam.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: aygart on February 04, 2015, 10:35:13 AM
Considering the centrality of Moshiach (itself whoever Moshiach is) in Chabad ideology it would be shocking if the talmidim didn't take an interest in "reading up on it".
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 11:06:04 AM
There is a diyuk in the Rambam, who says that if Moshiach is "neherag" he can't be Moshiach, it is very meduyek that if he's "meis" that he still can be Moshiach. It always suprises me that Chabadskers don't bring up that Rambam more often. Any open minded person would be very impressed with that Rambam.
are you familiar with the context of the rambam?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Freddie on February 04, 2015, 01:14:35 PM
No No NO NO!

It is just about as far from central as you can get. Which I tried to stress so many times in this thread. What you believe about the rebbe and mosiach or alive doesn't effect the chabad school of teaching and how to live even one iota IMHO.

JJ is right.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: coralsnake on February 04, 2015, 01:23:43 PM

The vocal meshichistim believe by publicizing yechi that they will bring moshiach closer.
Unfortunately, it seems the flag-waivers do more to divide rather than uniting klal Yisroel.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 01:28:16 PM
Easier to waive flags than learn or ask people to put on tefilin...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Freddie on February 04, 2015, 01:34:21 PM
Unfortunately, it seems the flag-waivers do more to divide rather than uniting klal Yisroel.

Yup.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: good sam on February 04, 2015, 01:49:41 PM
Anyone read the Prime Ministers?  Yehuda Avner tells of when he went to the Lubavitcher Rebbe to discuss the outcome of a meeting between Begin and Carter.  At the end of the conversation, the Rebbe asks Yehuda Avner why he hasn't yet become a Lubavitcher chassid. He answers (quite boldly) that it's because "there are those who attribute to the Rebbe that which the Rebbe does not attribute to himself."  The Rebbe's answer? "There are some who require a crutch."

Probably doesn't change anything for anyone but definitely interesting.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Freddie on February 04, 2015, 01:55:31 PM
Anyone read the Prime Ministers?  Yehuda Avner tells of when he went to the Lubavitcher Rebbe to discuss the outcome of a meeting between Begin and Carter.  At the end of the conversation, the Rebbe asks Yehuda Avner why he hasn't yet become a Lubavitcher chassid. He answers (quite boldly) that it's because "there are those who attribute to the Rebbe that which the Rebbe does not attribute to himself."  The Rebbe's answer? "There are some who require a crutch."

Probably doesn't change anything for anyone but definitely interesting.

Continue the story, nu!

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ganizzy on February 04, 2015, 02:01:14 PM
There is  2 different things.  Moshiach and who is moshiach.
Moshiach is def. A central core belief and attitude in chabad.
Who is moshiach is a personal belief.
For ex. I personally believe the Rebbe is moshiach and i say yechi, however i don't discuss that with others unless i am asked.  My sons don't wear yechi yarmulkahs. I don't tell guests/mekuravim..  to say it.
However at a simcha it will be sung  (ie I'm not hiding it )

The extreme side would be flag waving,  pushing yechi in others. ...

The other side of the extreme would be not allowing yechi to be said in  a lubavitch shul or at a personal simcha (yes it's happened ) making sure to write zia...

Most people are in between. Either they say yechi or not but it's not a big issue

Everyone talks about moshiach.
In my kids school they learn inyanei geulah and moshiach. A few lines a day or a week about the times of moshiach
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Ergel on February 04, 2015, 02:06:41 PM
@ganizzy Do you believe the rebbe died?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ganizzy on February 04, 2015, 02:29:33 PM
@ganizzy Do you believe the rebbe died?
It's hard for a chassid to say dead.
That being said, i go to the ohel, we went to the levaya.
So i guess the answer would be yes
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 02:43:12 PM
Which Chabadskers have you been talking to? It's probably THE source used when a Lubavitcher wants to explain why he believes the Rebbe is Moshiach. If we don't bring it up more often it's because we assume that anyone getting into the conversation about who Moshiach is would already know this Rambam.
All I hear from Chabadskers is "Yaakov avinu lo mes". That Rambam is very hard to argue.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 02:44:15 PM
are you familiar with the context of the rambam?
yes. What's our point?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 02:58:21 PM
All I hear from Chabadskers is "Yaakov avinu lo mes".
What does that have to do with moshiach?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Baruch on February 04, 2015, 03:06:02 PM
What does that have to do with moshiach?
exactly!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 03:06:31 PM
All I hear from Chabadskers is "Yaakov avinu lo mes". That Rambam is very hard to argue.
That's to discuss the Rebbe's life. His being Moshiach is from the Rambam.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 03:08:11 PM
That's to discuss the Rebbe's life. His being Moshiach is from the Rambam.
There's a lot more than just that.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 04, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
Easier to waive flags than learn or ask people to put on tefilin...
It's also easier to flat out, blanketly, denounce a whole group of people whose ideology you disagree with than to recognize what they are doing right. :)

It just happens to be, that generally speaking, the "flaggers" are amongst the most dedicated to learning and mivtzoim and "the Rebbe's inyonim" in general. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the average "flagger" bochur you'll find that to be the case.

I have plenty of problems with them and what they do, but I can also recognize what they do right.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 03:58:26 PM
You must have experience with different Israelis in 770 than I do.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Freddie on February 04, 2015, 04:00:15 PM
It's also easier to flat out, blanketly, denounce a whole group of people whose ideology you disagree with than to recognize what they are doing right. :)

It just happens to be, that generally speaking, the "flaggers" are amongst the most dedicated to learning and mivtzoim and "the Rebbe's inyonim" in general. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the average "flagger" bochur you'll find that to be the case.

I have plenty of problems with them and what they do, but I can also recognize what they do right.

As one "Chabadsker" to another, this is the point in the farbrengen at which I would throw potato salad at your face.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Alol
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 04, 2015, 04:07:26 PM
I'm not familiar w/ crown heights politics
Clearly :)

but this guy seems to do a good job calling out...
Yeah, in the same vain as FM does a good job of calling out whoever...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: whYME on February 04, 2015, 04:09:28 PM
You must have experience with different Israelis in 770 than I do.
Apparently.

You can't judge them all by the few that make the most noise :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: efflpetzel on February 04, 2015, 04:15:53 PM
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 04:22:27 PM
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work
That practice hardly started with the rebbe.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: doodle on February 04, 2015, 04:25:13 PM
THANK YOU for reopening this thread , I learned many new things !
and its all credit to OUR VERY OWN , , CHAIM MOSKOWITZ for putting it on his popcorn thread .
a public TRIBUTE to C.M.!!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 04, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
THANK YOU for reopening this thread , I learned many new things !
and its all credit to OUR VERY OWN , , CHAIM MOSKOWITZ for putting it on his popcorn thread .
a public TRIBUTE to C.M.!!
Please leave me out of this one. Extremely hard for me to understand any of this.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: efflpetzel on February 04, 2015, 04:30:01 PM
That practice hardly started with the rebbe.
what did that answer? :)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: doodle on February 04, 2015, 04:33:23 PM
AND credit for EVERYONE for keeping this important topic , peaceful and respectful , there is so much to be learned from this excellent thread. i would move it to the GENERAL ISSUES section. KUDOS TO ALL
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 04:40:23 PM
...i would move it to the GENERAL ISSUES section. KUDOS TO ALL
Some people would gain instant 10K status :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: MeirS on February 04, 2015, 04:52:30 PM
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work
The Rebbe mentioned a few times after the passing of the previous Rebbe, that chasidim should continue writing to the Rebbe, placing it at the ohel, and those who are far away should put it between the pages of the Rebbe's Chassidus and the Rebbe will find how to answer.

That seems to be the source of what some consider a letter on the page of the Rebbe's letters, that they randomly insert their letter to, as an answer to their question.

Although I don't think that is what the Rebbe meant and I wouldn't do this myself, nor would I suggest it to others, I may even discourage it, for those who believe in it, it definitely works.

For this to make sense I'll ask if anyone recalls the story with Reb Mendel Futerfas who sent a letter במחשה from Soviet jail and his wife in London received a letter in response. As well as the gentleman in France who asked the Rebbe (in the 30s) whether he should emigrate to America and the Rebbe told him to write to the previous Rebbe who was in Russia /long story short/ he brought it to the post office who said they couldn't do anything with the letter as there was no mail between the 2 countries and the next morning the guy woke up with a certainty that going to America was the right thing.

PS. There was a famous story about a family in Australia who has a life saving miracle (I think the bit was in hospital dying from cancer) by acting on advice they found in a letter from the Rebbe that they randomly opened to (PM me for the name).

PPS. Whether you would use an encouraging word in a letter as a blessing or if you would actually make decisions with consequences base on it, well, that's each to their own.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 05:06:52 PM
And there are even be DDFers who are alive today and who found their shidduchim due to answers found in igros...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 05:10:30 PM
And there are even be DDFers who are alive today and who found their shidduchim due to answers found in igros...
I believe that's more in line of what MeirS said about asking from a Brachah. Just like the many DDFers who went to the Ohel to get engaged...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:31:04 PM
Just curious are there any chabadskers around here who ask the rebbe questions through the book?

And how exactly does it work

The practice I believe dates back over 200 years ago, when chassidim were too far away from Lubavitch, they'd write their letter and insert it at random into the pages of the Rebbe's Torah.

Nowaday's the yellow flaggers try to push this practice on others, I don't believe that's necessary, but if someone was to ask me how one can obtain the Rebbe's advise or bracha, I would suggest this method, I have personal stories, and know hundreds of stories that happened to people I know. No one can deny it works and it's definitely miraculous, Igros Kodesh contains tens of thousands of letters the Rebbe wrote on all topics, do you think it's a coincidence that one who writes about a certain issue, randomly opened a random volume of Igros and the letter on that page discussed exactly what he was writing about? this exact scenario has played out 1000's of times
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:34:46 PM
It's also easier to flat out, blanketly, denounce a whole group of people whose ideology you disagree with than to recognize what they are doing right. :)

It just happens to be, that generally speaking, the "flaggers" are amongst the most dedicated to learning and mivtzoim and "the Rebbe's inyonim" in general. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the average "flagger" bochur you'll find that to be the case.

I have plenty of problems with them and what they do, but I can also recognize what they do right.

I happen to agree with what you say, people tend to write off the tzfatim very quickly, I'm definitely no fan of them, but they have a very sincere ibergegebenkeit to the Rebbe and his mivtzoim. They definitely cross lines from time to time, like when fighting with someone who stepped into their path they made for the Rebbe, if they believe the Rebbe is physically walking that path as we speak, would they dare raise their hand on a fellow Jew right in front of the Rebbe? any chossid became completely botul (if only for a few seconds) when directly in front of the Rebbe
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: efflpetzel on February 04, 2015, 06:35:20 PM

The practice I believe dates back over 200 years ago, when chassidim were too far away from Lubavitch, they'd write their letter and insert it at random into the pages of the Rebbe's Torah.

Nowaday's the yellow flaggers try to push this practice on others, I don't believe that's necessary, but if someone was to ask me how one can obtain the Rebbe's advise or bracha, I would suggest this method, I have personal stories, and know hundreds of stories that happened to people I know. No one can deny it works and it's definitely miraculous, Igros Kodesh contains tens of thousands of letters the Rebbe wrote on all topics, do you think it's a coincidence that one who writes about a certain issue, randomly opened a random volume of Igros and the letter on that page discussed exactly what he was writing about? this exact scenario has played out 1000's of times
the igros is one book?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:36:38 PM
the igros is one book?
no, approx 30 volumes

Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: efflpetzel on February 04, 2015, 06:37:14 PM
So how does that work?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:41:26 PM
To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
So how does that work?

When one wants to write a letter to the Rebbe, be it a bakasha for a bracha, a Pan (pidyan nefesh typically written on Erev R"H or your birthday) or a Duch (din vecheshbon, writing to the Rebbe about your achievements in a certain period or area) a chossid would prepare himself properly and take the moment very seriously. There are many preps that different people do, it's based your own hergeshim and discussions with your own mashpia. After writing the letter, randomly select a volume of Igros (or any other Sefer of the Rebbe's Torah, Igros has become the norm now since it is the most practical way to get a clear answer) and insert your letter into a random page. Afterwards, sit down and learn the letter and see what the Rebbe is discussing, and most of the time you should discuss the letter with your mashpia, you shouldn't rely on your own deductions.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 06:48:51 PM
besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.
As I mentioned upthread, I don't believe that group number 3 exists as a group within Chabad...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 06:49:41 PM
When one wants to write a letter to the Rebbe, be it a bakasha for a bracha, a Pan (pidyan nefesh typically written on Erev R"H or your birthday) or a Duch (din vecheshbon, writing to the Rebbe about your achievements in a certain period or area) a chossid would prepare himself properly and take the moment very seriously. There are many preps that different people do, it's based your own hergeshim and discussions with your own mashpia. After writing the letter, randomly select a volume of Igros (or any other Sefer of the Rebbe's Torah, Igros has become the norm now since it is the most practical way to get a clear answer) and insert your letter into a random page. Afterwards, sit down and learn the letter and see what the Rebbe is discussing, and most of the time you should discuss the letter with your mashpia, you shouldn't rely on your own deductions.
It all sounds crazy, and although I may fall into the "anti" side of the spectrum, you really do get incredible answers.
Not too many from the anti side of the spectrum will admit/agree to that ;)
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 06:55:12 PM
It all sounds crazy, and although I may fall into the "anti" side of the spectrum, you really do get incredible answers.
Not too many from the anti side of the spectrum will admit/agree to that ;)
stop considering yourself an anti!
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 06:59:36 PM
stop considering yourself an anti!
I don't believe that the rebbe has to be moshiach and I don't believe saying yechi or waiving flags causes achdus or brings moshiach closer (though it was fun to say yechi in high school just because the hanhola was so against it)
I have received powerful answers from Igros.

So call me what you want. 
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: elit on February 04, 2015, 07:05:04 PM
I don't believe that the rebbe has to be moshiach and I don't believe saying yechi or waiving flags causes achdus or brings moshiach closer (though it was fun to say yechi in high school just because the hanhola was so against it)
I have received powerful answers from Igros.

So call me what you want.
Why was the hanhala so against it?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 07:13:27 PM
Why was the hanhala so against it?
Probably because they...
don't believe saying yechi or waiving flags causes achdus or brings moshiach closer

You have anti hanhalas and you have mishichist hanhalas.
Most bochurim spend time under both and figure these things out for themselves.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: efflpetzel on February 04, 2015, 07:21:55 PM
When one wants to write a letter to the Rebbe, be it a bakasha for a bracha, a Pan (pidyan nefesh typically written on Erev R"H or your birthday) or a Duch (din vecheshbon, writing to the Rebbe about your achievements in a certain period or area) a chossid would prepare himself properly and take the moment very seriously. There are many preps that different people do, it's based your own hergeshim and discussions with your own mashpia. After writing the letter, randomly select a volume of Igros (or any other Sefer of the Rebbe's Torah, Igros has become the norm now since it is the most practical way to get a clear answer) and insert your letter into a random page. Afterwards, sit down and learn the letter and see what the Rebbe is discussing, and most of the time you should discuss the letter with your mashpia, you shouldn't rely on your own deductions.
how does one randomly select a book from 30 volumes?

Thanks for your clear answers.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 07:26:18 PM
how does one randomly select a book from 30 volumes?

Thanks for your clear answers.
You walk over to the bookshelf and chose one at random...
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: MeirS on February 04, 2015, 07:36:30 PM
how does one randomly select a book from 30 volumes?

Thanks for your clear answers.

You walk over to the bookshelf and chose one at random...
Duh

How do you randomly select one banana out of 30 bananas?
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 07:38:19 PM
besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.
It was a joke, as was pretty clear. The point being that the extremely vast majority of Lubavitchers, while passionate in their beliefs and commitment to the Rebbe, would draw the line at polarizing behavior that cause strife and divides the community.

Sure, there's politics and fights about all kinds of stuff - as is wont to be in all communities, but fights in regards to the "meshichist/anti meshichist" issue were largely left behind a decade or more ago. Those clinging onto those fights are the extremes on either side.

For example, when did you last hear the question of someone's "meshichist" beliefs in a shidduch reference call? I heard it once. In the late 90s, it was apparently a significant concern (from what I've heard).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 07:41:33 PM

For example, when did you last hear the question of someone's "meshichist" beliefs in a shidduch reference call? I heard it once. In the late 90s, it was apparently a significant concern (from what I've heard).
All the time... (not in reference calls, such Shiduchim don't usually make it that far...)

I was actually rejected by a very prominent CH family because I wasn't Meshichist enough (the only reason the Shidduch even came up is because the Shadchan tried convincing them that I really am Meshichist).
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 07:42:58 PM
All the time... (not in reference calls, such Shiduchim don't usually make it that far...)
Heh. Maybe I'm living in a blissful bubble.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Dan on February 04, 2015, 07:44:14 PM
That's nuts.
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 04, 2015, 07:49:48 PM
Heh. Maybe I'm living in a blissful bubble.
Maybe I'm just far enough on the "anti" spectrum where these things become relevant :P
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 04, 2015, 07:52:34 PM
Maybe I'm just far enough on the "anti" spectrum where these things become relevant
Not to mix popcorn threads, but I don't vaccinate my kids cause I don't want them to be on the "anti spectrum"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February 04, 2015, 08:14:46 PM
When one wants to write a letter to the Rebbe, be it a bakasha for a bracha, a Pan (pidyan nefesh typically written on Erev R"H or your birthday) or a Duch (din vecheshbon, writing to the Rebbe about your achievements in a certain period or area) a chossid would prepare himself properly and take the moment very seriously. There are many preps that different people do, it's based your own hergeshim and discussions with your own mashpia. After writing the letter, randomly select a volume of Igros (or any other Sefer of the Rebbe's Torah, Igros has become the norm now since it is the most practical way to get a clear answer) and insert your letter into a random page. Afterwards, sit down and learn the letter and see what the Rebbe is discussing, and most of the time you should discuss the letter with your mashpia, you shouldn't rely on your own deductions.

I should add (although this should be obvious), you must take this serious to work, I know people who like to disprove it based on their own experiences, they were critical of it from the beginning and wrote a letter with the intention of discrediting this whole thing, and lo and behold then letter he opened up to had nothing to do with him...

on another note, one of the most amazing stories I heard first hand from the person assisting the writer, this person guided the writer through the process and told him to go over to the bookshelf and select a volume and put the letter in, afterwards he brought the sefer over and they began to look at the letter and they noticed it was the Frierdiker Rebbe's Igros, not the Rebbe's, they nonetheless learned the letter and the FR was addressing his exact issue, he had his answer. but afterwards, he was upset he used the FR's Igros and not the Rebbe's so he decided he's going to stick the same letter into the Rebbe's Igros, the Rebbe's letter he opened up read "I'm surprised you ask me this, being that the Rebbe the shver already answered you on this matter"
Title: Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Post by: lybbtthl on February