DansDeals.com Forums

DansDeals Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: oceanblue1234 on February 15, 2012, 04:35:54 PM

Title: Law School
Post by: oceanblue1234 on February 15, 2012, 04:35:54 PM
I am applying for law school and currently writing a Diversity Statement and wondering if there is anyone that will possibly assist me by critiquing my statement and helping me?

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 15, 2012, 04:37:01 PM
Search for the education master thread, consider PMing Henche.
Mod's can you please move it over?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on February 15, 2012, 05:02:54 PM
I am applying for law school and currently writing a Diversity Statement and wondering if there is anyone that will possibly assist me by critiquing my statement and helping me?


Send a PM and Ill take a look
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: good sam on November 07, 2012, 11:46:18 AM
Anyone considering law school should look at these rankings from Above the Law
(http://cdn.abovethelaw.com/uploads/2012/11/LST-NY-Score-Report-Employment-540x354.jpg)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 07, 2012, 12:36:18 PM
Touro > Fordham jobs-wise?

Uhh, somehow that doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on November 07, 2012, 12:44:27 PM
Touro > Fordham jobs-wise?

Uhh, somehow that doesn't seem right.

As far as rankings go, Touro is the only outlier.

And the data does not discuss compensation. So they may have an easier time finding low-paying jobs.
Title: Re: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on November 07, 2012, 12:51:55 PM
As far as rankings go, Touro is the only outlier.

And the data does not discuss compensation. So they may have an easier time finding low-paying jobs.
Isn't that what under employment means?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Sowhat on November 07, 2012, 01:02:30 PM
Do some research and soul searching before you apply, don't just follow the herd. 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: LeeW on November 07, 2012, 01:28:34 PM
Do some research and soul searching before you apply, don't just follow the herd.

There's a herd going to law school??? I can count on two hands how many people I know going to law school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on November 07, 2012, 01:35:11 PM
Do some research and soul searching before you apply, don't just follow the herd.

Nothing wrong with applying. If you get into a good school, you have a decent chance. It's the people that can't back out once they take the LSAT and get into a poor school that have the issue.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: lfas25 on November 07, 2012, 01:35:47 PM
There's a herd going to law school??? I can count on two hands how many people I know going to law school.

If you could count in 2 hands, it isn't that much!!  ;D :D
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on November 07, 2012, 01:49:00 PM
Anyway to see this for law schools outside of NY?

ETA never mind found it http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ny
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: LeeW on November 07, 2012, 02:29:23 PM
If you could count in 2 hands, it isn't that much!!  ;D :D

Yes, that was what I was attempting to convey. Where is this giant herd of people going to law school?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on November 07, 2012, 03:11:29 PM
Touro > Fordham jobs-wise?

Uhh, somehow that doesn't seem right.
I agree.

Two points that may influence this:

1) The score may be based on percentage of employed graduates working in NY. I suspect that Touro graduates are more regionally restricted than their peers at Fordham who may have greater flexibility to work in other markets. Therefore, Fordham's lower "employment score" may be attributable to Fordham graduates not working in NY, but employed elsewhere.

2) Employment prospects out of most law schools are terrible now. Perhaps this chart illustrates the sobering point that even students at a prestigious school like Fordham, face an uphill journey in securing employment upon graduation.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 07, 2012, 05:41:37 PM
I agree.

Two points that may influence this:

1) The score may be based on percentage of employed graduates working in NY. I suspect that Touro graduates are more regionally restricted than their peers at Fordham who may have greater flexibility to work in other markets. Therefore, Fordham's lower "employment score" may be attributable to Fordham graduates not working in NY, but employed elsewhere.

2) Employment prospects out of most law schools are terrible now. Perhaps this chart illustrates the sobering point that even students at a prestigious school like Fordham, face an uphill journey in securing employment upon graduation.

1 doesn't make sense, IMO - what good is the study if it doesn't a) only in NY, and b) doesn't indicate so?

2 I largely agree... My advice is, and has been, if you don't a) get into a t-14 school, and/or b) get a full scholarship, stay away from law school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on November 07, 2012, 06:06:56 PM
1 doesn't make sense, IMO - what good is the study if it doesn't a) only in NY, and b) doesn't indicate so?

2 I largely agree... My advice is, and has been, if you don't a) get into a t-14 school, and/or b) get a full scholarship, stay away from law school.
If you look at that websites study there are non T14 schools that have better job rate then T14. Is it worth applying to those or just stick to T14?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on November 07, 2012, 06:11:01 PM
If you look at that websites study there are non T14 schools that have better job rate then T14. Is it worth applying to those or just stick to T14?

If you want to have a chance at getting a Biglaw (top-paying) job, you're usually better off at a T14 school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 07, 2012, 06:25:38 PM
If you want to have a chance at getting a Biglaw (top-paying) job, you're usually better off at a T14 school.

+1

If you look at that websites study there are non T14 schools that have better job rate then T14. Is it worth applying to those or just stick to T14?

Definitely worth applying, see option "b" above :)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on November 07, 2012, 06:35:03 PM
Definitely worth applying, see option "b" above :)
what's better a T14 or full ride at say Fordham?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: yaakov s on November 07, 2012, 08:19:24 PM
what's better a T14 or full ride at say Fordham?
T14. As always there are exceptions to the rule
Title: Re: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on November 07, 2012, 08:22:08 PM
T14. As always there are exceptions to the rule
Rarely
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: yid on November 07, 2012, 08:52:16 PM
1 doesn't make sense, IMO - what good is the study if it doesn't a) only in NY, and b) doesn't indicate so?

2 I largely agree... My advice is, and has been, if you don't a) get into a t-14 school, and/or b) get a full scholarship, stay away from law school.
+1
Title: Re: Re: Law School
Post by: yaakov s on November 07, 2012, 11:12:44 PM
Rarely
that's why it's called an exception  ;)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 08, 2012, 09:39:57 AM
what's better a T14 or full ride at say Fordham?

I'd say it depends on a) which t-14, and b) where you want to practice.

Example: if you get into Duke (with no scholarship), and Fordham with a full ride, and want to practice in NYC, that's a pretty tough question.

If it's t-5 or 6, take it and run.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on November 08, 2012, 10:22:56 AM
Besides, Fordham officially does not give out full rides. Unless it's changed recently.

Several of my friends were offered more money at higher ranked schools as compared to Fordham's offer.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on November 08, 2012, 11:18:04 AM
I would also add that although your chances of landing big-law at the top ranked schools are far better than at lower tiered schools, it is still a hustle to land the job.

I know several classmates at Columbia who struck out at the 2L EIP/On Campus Interview Program for summer associate positions. This is usually the only window of opportunity to get into big law, as interviews for 3Ls are far more limited.

Moreover, although I did not personally have such an experience, many with "heimishe" undergraduate degrees such as Talmudic Studies, Religious Studies etc. have told me that they found that their interview experience was unsuccessful.

That being said, looking for a job out of Columbia as a 3L seems to be a far more promising process than at other schools. I just want people to understand that you can not expect to walk into big law by default just by attending Columbia or similar schools.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 08, 2012, 11:22:56 AM
+1, and that is especially true in this economy
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: yaakov s on November 08, 2012, 11:50:42 AM
I would also add that although your chances of landing big-law at the top ranked schools are far better than at lower tiered schools, it is still a hustle to land the job.

I know several classmates at Columbia who struck out at the 2L EIP/On Campus Interview Program for summer associate positions. This is usually the only window of opportunity to get into big law, as interviews for 3Ls are far more limited.

Moreover, although I did not personally have such an experience, many with "heimishe" undergraduate degrees such as Talmudic Studies, Religious Studies etc. have told me that they found that their interview experience was unsuccessful.

That being said, looking for a job out of Columbia as a 3L seems to be a far more promising process than at other schools. I just want people to understand that you can not expect to walk into big law by default just by attending Columbia or similar schools.
Could be more the personality then the degree. Often , these people while smart , don't have the same command of the language skills and social interaction know how , compared to  someone who lived it for many years
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on November 08, 2012, 11:56:03 AM
Could be more the personality then the degree. Often , these people while smart , don't have the same command of the language skills and social interaction know how , compared to  someone who lived it for many years
Interesting. Although I'd venture to say Chabad guys have an edge because of mivtzoim and being used to striking up a conversation with a stranger who is often a successful professional...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on November 08, 2012, 11:58:14 AM
Could be more the personality then the degree. Often , these people while smart , don't have the same command of the language skills and social interaction know how , compared to  someone who lived it for many years
Many law students are coming straight out of undergrad with no work experience, and are equally if not more socially awkward as their yeshiva educated peers.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: NECjak15 on November 08, 2012, 12:25:44 PM
I'd say it depends on a) which t-14, and b) where you want to practice.

Example: if you get into Duke (with no scholarship), and Fordham with a full ride, and want to practice in NYC, that's a pretty tough question.

If it's t-5 or 6, take it and run.

T-14 is almost necessary if you want federal clerkship. Very little chance out of Fordham, unless your top 10% (even that, there's a remote chance)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 08, 2012, 12:29:26 PM
1) Not everyone wants to clerk, and 2) it isn't necessary :P
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Jay the PRESIDENT on November 09, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
-many of the comments regarding how hard iti is to land a law job are relevant to many professions in this economy. law is singled bec making big law makes it a lot bigger than other professions

-why would law school be worth it for a free ride if the job market is so bad?

-law school applications are down signifcantly, and many schools raised there scholarships- fordham max is now 30k i beleive
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on November 09, 2012, 08:59:13 AM
-many of the comments regarding how hard iti is to land a law job are relevant to many professions in this economy. law is singled bec making big law makes it a lot bigger than other professions

-why would law school be worth it for a free ride if the job market is so bad?

-law school applications are down signifcantly, and many schools raised there scholarships- fordham max is now 30k i beleive

That one is kinda self explanatory: less risk.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on January 29, 2013, 11:21:49 PM
Anyone considering law school should look at these rankings from Above the Law
(http://cdn.abovethelaw.com/uploads/2012/11/LST-NY-Score-Report-Employment-540x354.jpg)

 Another good read http://abovethelaw.com/2012/02/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2012/

Focusing on best law school for jobs in the top 250 firms.

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3048/gotolawschoolsnlj250201.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/gotolawschoolsnlj250201.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on February 05, 2013, 06:15:19 PM

Focusing on best law school for jobs in the top 250 firms.

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3048/gotolawschoolsnlj250201.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/gotolawschoolsnlj250201.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Keep in mind that this chart fails to account for students who graduate school and enter directly into a clerkship with a federal judge or state court of last resort. These students, who require superior credentials to obtain a clerkship, often have standing offers to join top firms at the conclusion of their 2 or 3 year clerkship. Thus, for example it would be  misleading to conclude from the numbers in this chart that a Harvard graduate would not fair as well in finding a placement at one of the NLJ 250.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 05, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs
Quote from: eliteflyer link=topic=14083.msg409210#msg409210 date=1http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs360106119
Keep in mind that this chart fails to account for students who graduate school and enter directly into a clerkship with a federal judge or state court of last resort. These students, who require superior credentials to obtain a clerkship, often have standing offers to join top firms at the conclusion of their 2 or 3 year clerkship. Thus, for example it would be  misleading to conclude from the numbers in this chart that a Harvard graduate would not fair as well in finding a placement at one of the NLJ 250.
Of course. The author of the article I linked to mentioned that

" Many top law schools, such as Yale and Harvard, send sizable numbers of their graduates straight into clerkships. These clerks often wind up at NLJ 250 firms after their clerkships, but they aren’t counted as hits for purposes of this list. So the schools that top this list are often those that land in the “sweet spot” between (1) having enough juice to get their grads Biglaw jobs and (2) not having too many grads go off and clerk. In other words, think of it as a list of law schools that excel at sending their graduates straight into Biglaw, without detour."

Here you can see what percentage of each class goes to federal jobs http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs
Click on the federal tab to show the highest ranked in that category.

Also lacking from both these reports is where in the top 250 do the students get jobs. Penn graduates might go to the top 150-250 firms while Harvard/Yale/Columbia graduates go to the top 1-100 firms.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Sowhat on February 06, 2013, 10:01:49 AM
Folks, I'm a lawyer, with my own practice for about 13 years.  My ear is not that close to the ground, but from what I understand, law is more saturated than other professions, costs in excess of $100k to earn, and for even those in the top of the class, a job is not a sure thing.  This past summer a major law firm went bust (may have been earlier).   A Harvard grad had a job there, but it obviously disappeared.  This Harvard grad was unable to find another job.  At all.  Granted, it was late in the game, as Big Law fills its slots in the Winter and Spring, but that is pretty unusual.  A big part of the overall problem was the schools, who promised the moon knowing they couldn't deliver.  It was only recently that their bluff was called and now their collective pants are around their ankles.  I remember being a 1L, and drooling over the first year salaries, then around $125k, that "everyone" got.  Aside from a few, it was fantasy.  But the schools did little to disabuse us of that approach..
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Sowhat on February 06, 2013, 10:04:46 AM
what's better a T14 or full ride at say Fordham?

I disagree with some others.  Today, you must manage risk.  I would go to Fordham and score in the top 10%.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 06, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
I disagree with some others.  Today, you must manage risk.  I would go to Fordham and score in the top 10%.

Why in the top 10%? Why not just be valedictorian while you're at it.

You know everyone who enters intends to be in the top 10%, but only 1 in 10 are.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on February 06, 2013, 07:31:26 PM
You know everyone who enters intends to be in the top 1%, but only 1 in 100 is.
+1. FTFY :-)
This past summer a major law firm went bust (may have been earlier).   A Harvard grad had a job there, but it obviously disappeared.  This Harvard grad was unable to find another job.  At all. 
Dewey and LeBoeuf: Sad story. The firm filed for bankruptcy protection in May of last year. I know several 2Ls at CLS that were to have had summer associateships there and found out 1 week before finals that there positions had disappeared. The writing was already on the wall in March when the firm began shedding partners. By April, it was hemorrhaging partners by the dozens to rival firms. Many associates were left in the dust.

Scary thing is that in August, 2011 when the incoming summer class of 2Ls was interviewing, there was no way to know that this was going to go down. Even the partners were in the dark then.

Some of the CLS kids were able to find positions at other firms who graciously took them on to their summer classes despite the late date. I know one who went to Mayer Brown.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: mercaz1 on February 07, 2013, 10:02:06 AM
I disagree with some others.  Today, you must manage risk.  I would go to Fordham and score in the top 10%.
i would also take the free ride to fordham because even if you are not in the top 10 at least you dont have a crushing debt of the t14 school where you probably wont be in the top  10 either
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 07, 2013, 10:31:08 AM
i would also take the free ride to fordham because even if you are not in the top 10 at least you dont have a crushing debt of the t14 school where you probably wont be in the top  10 either

In fact you will be less likely to be in the top 10% at a t14 than at Fordham (considering the competition) but at least you will have a much higher chance at a job even if you are only the top haf of the class. Everyone has to weigh the pros and cons for their own circumstances.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: mercaz1 on February 07, 2013, 11:12:27 AM
if you do well in fordham you will hopefully get a job might not be as good as from the t14 but you also have to consider that you are already up 200k from not taking out loans
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2013, 12:06:05 PM
Everyone has to weigh the pros and cons for their own circumstances.

That's the bottom line.

T-5 or 6 is said to open doors that are said to be closed to "Fordham" (used loosely to represent schools that are of lower rank).

Also, you don't even need to be in the top half of your t-5 or 6 schools to get a job at am law 50 firm. Maybe not even in the top 3/4.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 07, 2013, 03:32:57 PM
זה כלל גדול: You cannot choose a law school (or choose law school) unless you have lurked on top-law-schools.com (from which I am banned, many times over) for several months. ואידך פירושא.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on February 07, 2013, 03:39:33 PM
Sounds interesting :P
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 24, 2013, 04:00:37 AM
Law.com top story today, published their top 50 goto law school list updated for 2012 hiring history... Seems hiring has started going up this year.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202589189668&interactive=true

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 24, 2013, 10:50:28 AM
Law.com top story today, published their top 50 goto law school list updated for 2012 hiring history... Seems hiring has started going up this year.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202589189668&interactive=true

Yeah, but that ranking is retarded. I don't care what the number of NLJ 250 lawyers is,  you cannot rank Yale number 14 and be taken seriously. If you are at the bottom of your class at Yale, you will still be fawned over by top firms. If you are at the bottom of the class at Penn (their number 1), you will have a serious employment problem.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 25, 2013, 12:30:30 AM
Yeah, but that ranking is retarded. I don't care what the number of NLJ 250 lawyers is,  you cannot rank Yale number 14 and be taken seriously. If you are at the bottom of your class at Yale, you will still be fawned over by top firms. If you are at the bottom of the class at Penn (their number 1), you will have a serious employment problem.
+1

It likely ignores public service, and clerkships.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 25, 2013, 06:00:34 AM
As discussed a few posts up last time this stat was posted...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 25, 2013, 06:05:40 AM
As discussed a few posts up last time this stat was posted...
You can't complain about purim posts.

I think the percentages are irrelevant. The real data is what percentage of job applications were accepted. What percentage got their first choice job, and what percentage didn't get a job at all.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 25, 2013, 09:01:06 AM
You can't complain about purim posts.

+1
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: e-Lawyer on February 25, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
OP stated that he/she already made the decision to go to law school. Let's focus on pros and cons of specific schools, not a takedown of law schools in general. For that there is the internet.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: myb821 on February 25, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
OP stated that he/she already made the decision to go to law school. Let's focus on pros and cons of specific schools, not a takedown of law schools in general. For that there is the internet.
The OP's from one year ago
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 25, 2013, 06:00:35 PM
OP stated that he/she already made the decision to go to law school. Let's focus on pros and cons of specific schools, not a takedown of law schools in general. For that there is the internet.
And what are we, chopped liver?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: e-Lawyer on February 25, 2013, 06:07:13 PM



 Most "yeshiva guys" (yeshiva is being used generically here) pretty much have two options if they want to attend graduate school; business school or law school. Both of those used to be excellent choices no matter where an individual went to school and now they (and their respective industries) are all plagued by saturation. There are too many law and b-school graduates for the market to bear. That doesn't mean that one should no longer go to graduate school, just that the "pot of gold" at the end is not as sure and decisions need to be made more pragmatically and with a lower baseline.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: e-Lawyer on February 25, 2013, 06:08:27 PM
And what are we, chopped liver?

Maybe :-\

Is this a Shushan Purim post?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: e-Lawyer on February 25, 2013, 06:11:49 PM
The OP's from one year ago

Oh well.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: good sam on March 11, 2013, 01:24:26 PM
Another article about law students

http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/11/just-how-bad-off-are-law-school-graduates/
Quote
the one law even lawyers cannot get around is supply and demand.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 11, 2013, 01:32:36 PM
Someone on a med school forums made a great point. He mentioned that its interesting to note that on med forums when someone mentions top 20 US news rankings it gets about 3 pages of responses mostly saying how irrelevant the rankings are and that no one cares. However when a ranking thread opens on the law forums it gets 100's of pages within hours! It speaks to the tough job market that lawyers have to deal with.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on March 11, 2013, 01:40:26 PM
Someone on a med school forums made a great point. He mentioned that its interesting to note that on med forums when someone mentions top 20 US news rankings it gets about 3 pages of responses mostly saying how irrelevant the rankings are and that no one cares. However when a ranking thread opens on the law forums it gets 100's of pages within hours! It speaks to the tough job market that lawyers have to deal with.

You know what else speaks to that? The number of unemployed lawyers.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 11, 2013, 03:38:20 PM
You know what else speaks to that? The number of unemployed lawyers.

Thanks for pointing that out, I felt that was obvious to anyone on this thread. I was trying to frame it in relation to another profession.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on March 11, 2013, 04:02:01 PM
Yeah, it is a pretty striking contrast to med school. The hard part of med school is getting in to any med school, while the hard part of law school is getting into a top school and even then, getting a job out of it.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on March 11, 2013, 04:12:19 PM
Top med school, top shmed school.

The cliche is pretty accurate as it turns out... no one knows/cares what school their pediatrician went to.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: good sam on March 11, 2013, 05:18:43 PM
Top med school, top shmed school.

The cliche is pretty accurate as it turns out... no one knows/cares what school their pediatrician went to.
That's what henche said.  You don't know/care where you're doctor went to med school because anyone who got into and graduated from med school has to be somewhat bright.  A toe fungus can graduate from law school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on May 03, 2013, 01:37:26 AM
A new type of ranking. Any thoughts?

Basically they cut out the Lsat/gpa aspect of incoming classes and focused on jobs/alumni satisfaction.

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/

His own criticism i.e. explaining the ranking more http://abovethelaw.com/2013/05/everything-that-is-wrong-with-the-above-the-law-law-school-rankings/ 

Here are the top 10 if you are too lazy to click the link.


Rank   School   Score
1
   
Yale Law
85.87
2   
Stanford Law
85.73
3   
Harvard Law School
84.46
4   
University of Chicago Law
80.34
5
   
University of Pennsylvania Law
79.94
6   
Duke Law
75.67
7   
University of Virginia Law
73.46
8   
Columbia Law
71.96
9   
University of California, Berkeley
71.37
10   
New York University
70.85
11   
Cornell Law School
68.82
12   
University of Michigan
68.64
13   
Northwestern Law
68.35
14   
University of Texas at Austin
60.67
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on May 03, 2013, 03:55:26 AM
Can't edit my post anymore, but this is an interesting way of finding the best law school with personalized some of the criteria. Although I don't know how much I trust this one based on how I played with it. The link is set to a default ranking mode I believe.

http://www.mylsn.info/rankings.php
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on May 03, 2013, 07:08:26 AM
It doesn't change anything. You should still go to a T14, and roughly in the USNWR order (as he correctly self criticizes)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 03, 2013, 09:15:21 AM
Top med school, top shmed school.

The cliche is pretty accurate as it turns out... no one knows/cares what school their pediatrician went to.
but they care very much where their surgeon went to school..
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on May 03, 2013, 10:33:50 AM
but they care very much where their surgeon went to school..

that is a very good and highly perceptive point, IMO. People don't care much about the creds of their pediatrician because we perceive them as unskilled pill pushers. When it comes to cutting us open, or diagnosing and treating real diseases, you better believe that HMS diploma on the wall carries credibility.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on May 03, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
that is a very good and highly perceptive point, IMO. People don't care much about the creds of their pediatrician because we perceive them as unskilled pill pushers. When it comes to cutting us open, or diagnosing and treating real diseases, you better believe that HMS diploma on the wall carries credibility.
I'm not so sure that this is true either. In terms of "useful' prestige, I'd be looking to see where they did their residency, fellowships or pursued  specialties. But we digress.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on May 03, 2013, 06:39:25 PM
I'm not so sure that this is true either. In terms of "useful' prestige, I'd be looking to see where they did their residency, fellowships or pursued  specialties. But we digress.
+1 but I don't know anyone who actually does this.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: myb821 on May 03, 2013, 07:03:47 PM
+1 but I don't know anyone who actually does this.
most people go off of recommendations
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on May 04, 2013, 11:10:12 PM
most people go off of recommendations

Sort of... Most people get major procedures done at the massive hospital systems. These hospitals are more likely to offer highly competitive jobs to graduates of top residency programs and therefore residency matters

where they did their residency, fellowships or pursued  specialties.

You can make an argument that this carries over to med school as well but the correlation starts getting very weak.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Jay the PRESIDENT on June 23, 2013, 01:11:07 AM
employers care about where you went to school.  this is true in medicine or law.
This is most true for first job. after that experience is most important. lawyers dont win cases bec they went to a T14 school.
The reasons rankings dont matter in med school is bec the pool of med students is so small compared to law students there are more opportunities for jobs
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2013, 08:06:48 PM
The job market must really be awful.  I received two resumes this week from experienced candidates willing to take a $100k paycut - and these are people with a current job. 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on June 26, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
The job market must really be awful.  I received two resumes this week from experienced candidates willing to take a $100k paycut - and these are people with a current job.

I'm confused. Why would someone WITH a job be actively looking for a job that earns a $100k less than he or she is currently making?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2013, 08:14:11 PM
I'm confused. Why would someone WITH a job be actively looking for a job that earns a $100k less than he or she is currently making?

I suspect that they feel that cutbacks are imminent. 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on June 26, 2013, 08:33:42 PM
The job market must really be awful.  I received two resumes this week from experienced candidates willing to take a $100k paycut - and these are people with a current job. 
and what sort of job are you offering? Perhaps they are looking to cut back on hours?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on June 26, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
and what sort of job are you offering? Perhaps they are looking to cut back on hours?

True dat.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2013, 10:20:24 PM
and what sort of job are you offering? Perhaps they are looking to cut back on hours?

It's a legal tax position in a specialized area (in-house).  The applicants were in-house as well.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on June 27, 2013, 12:31:24 AM
This is most true for first job. after that experience is most important. lawyers dont win cases bec they went to a T14 school.

Depends on the law job, if you want BIGLAW, even ten years out, the law school you went to is very important.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on July 15, 2013, 03:24:36 PM
Who runs the "law school success seminar" advertised on the main site?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 03:26:41 PM
Who runs the "law school success seminar" advertised on the main site?

For the right price, I'd be happy to endorse it and say that I took it and it is what made me successful.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on July 15, 2013, 03:31:15 PM
For the right price, I'd be happy to endorse it and say that I took it and it is what made me successful.

Where do you work currently?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on July 15, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
For the right price, I'd be happy to endorse it and say that I took it and it is what made me successful.
though not necessarily ethical or honest  :)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 03:42:43 PM
though not necessarily ethical or honest  :)

OT!!
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on July 15, 2013, 03:51:33 PM
OT!!
Did you indeed participate in this program?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 03:52:58 PM
No, just saw it today for first time.

Good idea to make one targeted for BTL's, since prob most of us go in concerned that we're behind. If I don't like law firm life, maybe I'll start one myself :)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on July 15, 2013, 04:03:26 PM
No, just saw it today for first time.

Good idea to make one targeted for BTL's, since prob most of us go in concerned that we're behind. If I don't like law firm life, maybe I'll start one myself :)

 Of more utility, are programs that teach mastery of the LSAT and any real advice about the state of the legal profession, aimed primarily at informing students about the risks associated with assuming high amounts of debt for a degree of questionable earning power.

 BTLs in my experience were not at a particular disadvantage with respect to actual classes or performance on law school exams. Instead, the real challenges appeared to arise in interviews where they often lacked the confidence to convince a hiring partner that they were just as savvy and prepared as the their peers who came up through more traditional channels.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 04:08:35 PM

 Of more utility, are programs that teach mastery of the LSAT and any real advice about the state of the legal profession, aimed primarily at informing students about the risks associated with assuming high amounts of debt for a degree of questionable earning power.

 BTLs in my experience were not at a particular disadvantage with respect to actual classes or performance on law school exams. Instead, the real challenges appeared to arise in interviews where they often lacked the confidence to convince a hiring partner that they were just as savvy and prepared as the their peers who came up through more traditional channels.

Well sure. but where's the money at? (LSAT tutoring is def also where it's at, but field is already developed)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on July 15, 2013, 04:10:12 PM

 Of more utility, are programs that teach mastery of the LSAT and any real advice about the state of the legal profession, aimed primarily at informing students about the risks associated with assuming high amounts of debt for a degree of questionable earning power.

 BTLs in my experience were not at a particular disadvantage with respect to actual classes or performance on law school exams. Instead, the real challenges appeared to arise in interviews where they often lacked the communication skills to convince a hiring partner that they were just as savvy and prepared as the their peers who came up through more traditional channels.

FTFY
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on July 15, 2013, 05:11:10 PM
I heard law school prep courses are a waste of time. They teach you the same stuff you learn the first week in school.

It is smart to target BTL's as I know we do feel under-confident starting the year...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 05:29:54 PM
I heard law school prep courses are a waste of time. They teach you the same stuff you learn the first week in school.

It is smart to target BTL's as I know we do feel under-confident starting the year...

Of course it's worthless. But if it makes people more confident than they'd be otherwise, then it's valuable.
(I suppose the confidence would be from knowing they aren't missing out on any valuable prep, because there is no valuable prep...)

I did some sort of pre-law course they offered me free. It was as worthless as an unactivated vr, but at least I didn't feel like I was at a disadvantage going in compared to the people who did one.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dan on July 15, 2013, 06:03:28 PM
If they actually can teach you how to write then why is it worthless?
Many guys prob enter law school without ever having written a paper.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on July 15, 2013, 06:04:39 PM
If they actually can teach you how to write then why is it worthless?
Many guys prob enter law school without ever having written a paper.
You don't need to know how to write for law school exams. And legal writing they teach in school (usually pass/fail).
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 15, 2013, 06:09:06 PM
You don't need to know how to write for law school exams.

+1
I can send you a couple of exams I wrote, full of spelling mistakes and incomplete sentences. I know grammar, but aint nobody got time for that.

 
And legal writing they teach in school (usually pass/fail).

Some schools is graded.
But more important point is nobody will be able to teach you much in a pre-law course. You learn how to write properly over years of reading and practice.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on July 15, 2013, 06:46:06 PM
If they actually can teach you how to write then why is it worthless?
Many guys prob enter law school without ever having written a paper.

"These programs are especially helpful if you received most or all of you college credits from a yeshiva."

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: explorer84 on July 15, 2013, 09:34:48 PM
Law school prep courses are a waste of money and time. All professors are very different and quirky. There are some similarities because professor use the Socratic method. Otherwise a broad based course is nothing more than money down the drain.

You dont need to know how to write well. If you can write: See spot run. Spot is running. Then you will do very well.

Best forum to lean about law school: toplawschoolforum
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: easy48 on July 16, 2013, 12:02:06 PM
Law school prep courses are a waste of money and time. All professors are very different and quirky. There are some similarities because professor use the Socratic method. Otherwise a broad based course is nothing more than money down the drain.

You dont need to know how to write well. If you can write: See spot run. Spot is running. Then you will do very well.

Best forum to lean about law school: toplawschoolforum

+10.

These things prey on nervous students who think if they spend money on prep they will do better. Don't do it. Study, pay attention and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on July 16, 2013, 12:41:56 PM
+10.

These things prey on nervous students who think if they spend money on prep they will do better. Don't do it. Study, pay attention and you won't be worse off than if you had taken the prep course.
FTFY
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: KollelDegree on July 16, 2013, 02:25:21 PM
Just added a forum category for Law School at YeshivaDegree.com (http://www.yeshivadegree.com/forums).

If you have a question on specifics post it there and I will personally get to it.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on July 16, 2013, 02:39:14 PM
Just added a forum category for Law School at YeshivaDegree.com (http://www.yeshivadegree.com/forums).

If you have a question on specifics post it there and I will personally get to it.
Nice plug, but who are you and what qualifies you to answer questions?

Don't mean that it in a mean way, your forum looks like a great idea actually.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on July 16, 2013, 02:54:19 PM
Nice plug, but who are you and what qualifies you to answer questions?

Don't mean that it in a mean way, your forum looks like a great idea actually.


+1
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 16, 2013, 07:57:07 PM
His forum is a nice idea and has potential to be very helpful for yeshiva guys.

+1

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: easy48 on July 16, 2013, 10:07:24 PM
FTFY

Agreed.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: KollelDegree on July 17, 2013, 12:55:22 PM
Nice plug, but who are you and what qualifies you to answer questions?

Don't mean that it in a mean way, your forum looks like a great idea actually.

Thanks - no hard feelings taken.
I am someone who went through the system and learned all the ins and outs. After 8 years of working at a great job I could have only gotten thanks to my two degress (Bachelors and Masters - which I obtained in a total of 3 years) and Boruch Hashem to good investing decisions, I am able to learn in Kollel for most of every day.

There was no resource out there to help people navigate university, and many heimishe people were wasting a lot of money and time in the system. This prompted someone I know to start this website, and he recently contacted me to help out on the forums, to which I gladly said I would.

All suggestions/advice/tips are welcome and appreciated!
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on July 17, 2013, 01:01:27 PM
Thanks - no hard feelings taken.
I am someone who went through the system and learned all the ins and outs. After 8 years of working at a great job I could have only gotten thanks to my two degress (Bachelors and Masters - which I obtained in a total of 3 years) and Boruch Hashem to good investing decisions, I am able to learn in Kollel for most of every day.

There was no resource out there to help people navigate university, and many heimishe people were wasting a lot of money and time in the system. This prompted someone I know to start this website, and he recently contacted me to help out on the forums, to which I gladly said I would.

All suggestions/advice/tips are welcome and appreciated!
Very cool. Good luck with the forum! Hopefully I'll help out when I have some free time.

I got a BA in 3 months from Excelsior :)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: SamKey on October 06, 2013, 12:42:29 PM
I have a question for all you lawyers... Is it legal to lie about affiliation to certain organizations in order to receive discounts. THIS IS A LAW QUESTION NO PERSONAL FEELINGS PLEASE
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Myccrabbi on October 06, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
I have a question for all you lawyers... Is it legal to lie about affiliation to certain organizations in order to receive discounts. THIS IS A LAW QUESTION NO PERSONAL FEELINGS PLEASE
why would it b?

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Myccrabbi on October 06, 2013, 12:55:30 PM
why would it b?
yes its illegal

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: HP58 on October 06, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
yes its illegal
OMG you're a LAWYER?! How'd you get through college with your spelling (or lack thereof) ;) ?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: mmermss on October 06, 2013, 01:07:13 PM
why would it b?


yes its illegal


You know you can edit posts within a certain amount of time since your last post?  You dont need to ask a question on his question and answer your own question in a different post.  Just sayin
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Saver2000 on October 06, 2013, 01:09:44 PM
Guys,  no need to clutter up another thread with this long conversation/argument.

SamKey posted here for lawyers to respond.

All others please keep your trolling to the other thread.

Thanx
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: SamKey on October 06, 2013, 04:55:19 PM
Guys,  no need to clutter up another thread with this long conversation/argument.

SamKey posted here for lawyers to respond.

All others please keep your trolling to the other thread.

Thanx
Thanx! We should really get some trolling police here
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: ahecht37 on October 06, 2013, 05:55:51 PM
Thanks - no hard feelings taken.
I am someone who went through the system and learned all the ins and outs. After 8 years of working at a great job I could have only gotten thanks to my two degress (Bachelors and Masters - which I obtained in a total of 3 years) and Boruch Hashem to good investing decisions, I am able to learn in Kollel for most of every day.

There was no resource out there to help people navigate university, and many heimishe people were wasting a lot of money and time in the system. This prompted someone I know to start this website, and he recently contacted me to help out on the forums, to which I gladly said I would.

All suggestions/advice/tips are welcome and appreciated!
there seems to be very few people using the site and not much discussion
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on October 07, 2013, 03:16:08 PM
Only if you are doing it illegally.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 07, 2013, 03:28:22 PM
Need to write a Brief on a contract case. How do I find NJ court cases online, NJ judiciary seems to only post a handful of recent ones.
Better yet would be if legal briefs were available somehow... ;)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: SamKey on October 07, 2013, 06:39:56 PM
Only if you are doing it illegally.
Assuming that was in response to my query how would I do that
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Sowhat on October 07, 2013, 10:45:24 PM
Need to write a Brief on a contract case. How do I find NJ court cases online, NJ judiciary seems to only post a handful of recent ones.
Better yet would be if legal briefs were available somehow... ;)

Google Scholar
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on October 08, 2013, 12:35:11 AM
Need to write a Brief on a contract case. How do I find NJ court cases online, NJ judiciary seems to only post a handful of recent ones.
Better yet would be if legal briefs were available somehow... ;)

Did they not tell you how to find that?

Lexis or Westlaw.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
Did they not tell you how to find that?

Lexis or Westlaw.
Dont those cost money?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: mb1 on October 08, 2013, 11:34:14 AM
Dont those cost money?

Does the court have a library with free access to it's cases?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 08, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
findlaw.com (for professionals) is good.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 08, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
Did they not tell you how to find that?

Lexis or Westlaw.
its PCS ::) not Harvard
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 08:22:50 PM
does anyone know anything about becoming a patent lawyer?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 17, 2013, 08:28:20 PM
You have to go to law school, pass the state bar, and pass the patent bar.

What specifically?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 08:31:38 PM
You have to go to law school, pass the state bar, and pass the patent bar.

What specifically?

what schools are good in the tri state area? can this be done online?

whats the patent bar?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 17, 2013, 08:43:35 PM
http://bit.ly/1hiOhEw

and

http://bit.ly/uPrXHC
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 08:46:15 PM
http://bit.ly/1hiOhEw

and

http://bit.ly/uPrXHC

lol....thanks

now does anyone have personal experience?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 08:50:46 PM
lol....thanks

now does anyone have personal experience?
I hear Columbia is a pretty good school. Not sure about for Patent law specifically though. NYU is the only other top tier school in the tri-state area. Besides those there's Cardozo and Fordham. (I hear Cardozo has some very prestigious graduates so that's a plus for them ;) )

You want to become a patent lawyer for sure?

Do you have a job set up or it's just something you want to do?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 17, 2013, 08:52:47 PM
Cardozo is highly ranked in IP, I believe they're #1 in NY.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 17, 2013, 08:54:03 PM
I hear Columbia is a pretty good school. Not sure about for Patent law specifically though. NYU is the only other top tier school in the tri-state area.

Cornell is also top tier, and is in tri-state.

As is Yale...

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
I hear Columbia is a pretty good school. Not sure about for Patent law specifically though. NYU is the only other top tier school in the tri-state area. Besides those there's Cardozo and Fordham. (I hear Cardozo has some very prestigious graduates so that's a plus for them ;) )

You want to become a patent lawyer for sure?

Do you have a job set up or it's just something you want to do?

nothing for sure...lol.

just interested in looking into options. I dont need a top school really. just something that I can hack. only reason why im looking into patent is bec its a subject that interests me.

Does anyone know if most classes can be done online?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 08:56:01 PM
Cardozo is highly ranked in IP, I believe they're #1 in NY.
I'll be damned http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/intellectual-property-law-rankings  but http://www.sciencetolaw.com/beware-the-ip-law-rankings/

Cornell is also top tier, and is in tri-state.

As is Yale...


Are they really? Penn is way close than Cornell and 20 minutes further than Yale, is it also in the tri-state area?

I'd advise against Cornell FWIHear.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 17, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
Tri-state = NY, NJ, and CT.

Not PA.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 09:03:03 PM
Tri-state = NY, NJ, and CT.

Not PA.
When a Jew asks for tri-state area I assume they mean near NYC. That said Commute to school is probably what they are interested in. I know a 2L at Penn who lives in Manhattan and commutes for class. 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 09:07:24 PM
nothing for sure...lol.

just interested in looking into options. I dont need a top school really. just something that I can hack. only reason why im looking into patent is bec its a subject that interests me.

Does anyone know if most classes can be done online?
If you want to get a job and earn money, I don't think online is a good idea, and going to a good school would be a good idea. If it is an interest and you aren't worried about money/ obtaining a job then alternative means can be an option.

As Henche will tell you anyone going to law school, must spend time at http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Hirshthg on December 17, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
Most attorney you ask now a days will tell you to find the cheapest law school and plan on doing your law studying in the field.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 17, 2013, 10:11:25 PM
Most attorney you ask now a days will tell you to find the cheapest law school and plan on doing your law studying in the field.
-10000000
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 10:16:37 PM
-10000000
+10000000

So much wrong with that statement. For starters it's known that you don't learn how to practice as an attorney in law school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 17, 2013, 10:17:44 PM
Most attorney you ask now a days will tell you to find the cheapest law school and plan on doing your law studying in the field.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/rolling.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/emoticons.html)
Thanks Hirsh, best laugh I've had all day!
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on December 17, 2013, 10:18:37 PM
Take a survey.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 17, 2013, 10:20:58 PM


As Henche will tell you anyone going to law school, must spend time at http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php

+1
And as regards ranking in IP, standard TLS wisdom is that those rankings are irrelevant. If you need proof, just log onto the firm bios at any of the top NYC firms, and see where the IP associates hired in the past 4 years went to school. It wasn't cardozo--it was harvard, columbia, NYU, and other national schools.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Hirshthg on December 17, 2013, 10:33:18 PM
+10000000

So much wrong with that statement. For starters it's known that you don't learn how to practice as an attorney in law school.

There is a lot of talk about redoing the law school system to include internships and continuing to lengthen the bar exam to including being able to actually know how to practise instead of just knowing theory.

So get under the wire before they start adding even more stuff to the school mandates and the tests...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 10:34:43 PM
There is a lot of talk
FTFY

You can add a lot of talk of making law school 2 years, so better wait till it's just 2 years.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 17, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
FTFY

You can add a lot of talk of making law school 2 years, so better wait till it's just 2 years.
Nothing will change. Law schools are a cash cow. Simple as that. No one is gonna kill the cow
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 10:44:45 PM
Wow... good debate guys.

I am wondering if its worth all the debt....
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 10:47:45 PM
Wow... good debate guys.

I am wondering if its worth all the debt....
Exactly why it depends on the school, from an investment standpoint.

Top schools the majority of the class is making $160,000 first year out. That can justify $200,000 debt. But a lower school the average student doesn't even find a job as a lawyer and has $100,000 debt.

See earlier in this thread a link to school employment and salary stats.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Hirshthg on December 17, 2013, 10:52:00 PM
Nothing will change. Law schools are a cash cow. Simple as that. No one is gonna kill the cow
FTFY

You can add a lot of talk of making law school 2 years, so better wait till it's just 2 years.

The public is talking about the 2 year law school,  and they are also talking about making it cheaper, however the administration  and the judiciary is talking about making it better. Although they are not saying this better takes longer and costs more. You are right they are a cash cow, and that cow is going to get feed better as time goes on.

As for nothing changing 5 additional "parts" for the bar exam are drafted and pilot tested as we speak. Maybe nothing will change however that is looking less and less likely.

Exactly why it depends on the school, from an investment standpoint.

Top schools the majority of the class is making $160,000 first year out. That can justify $200,000 debt. But a lower school the average student doesn't even find a job as a lawyer and has $100,000 debt.

See earlier in this thread a link to school employment and salary stats.

1 out of 5 students on average end up practicing law for a living. Even your top tier schools average at around 80 not finding a job in the first year for part pay positions. For the vast majority the answer to Dave321's question is, no.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 17, 2013, 11:12:35 PM
Ok thanks all for the advice... ill keep doing some research.

maybe ill just get an MBA. I can get one for about 35k lol....
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 11:13:32 PM
@Hirshthg 80 what don't find a job?

And the judiciary is also talking about making law school 2 years. Well at least justice Kennedy was last I spoke with him :P
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: twentie4hrs on December 17, 2013, 11:20:32 PM

@Hirshthg 80 what don't find a job?

And the judiciary is also talking about making law school 2 years. Well at least justice Kennedy was last I spoke with him :P

It all depends on WHY someone wants to go.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 17, 2013, 11:24:19 PM
It all depends on WHY someone wants to go.

Couldn't have said better.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 17, 2013, 11:57:46 PM

Top schools the majority of the class is making $160,000 first year out. That can justify $200,000 debt. But a lower school the average student doesn't even find a job as a lawyer and has $100,000 debt.
 

dont know what u mean by top schools, but after the top 5, no "majority of the class" is making 160k/getting NY biglaw, and if you plan to wear a yarmulke to interviews, u better be law review/top grades. I've interviewed several ortho jews at my firm, and its pretty impossible.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 18, 2013, 12:21:19 AM
dont know what u mean by top schools, but after the top 5, no "majority of the class" is making 160k/getting NY biglaw, and if you plan to wear a yarmulke to interviews, u better be law review/top grades. I've interviewed several ortho jews at my firm, and its pretty impossible.
Top 5 sounds about right. I know Penn more than other schools and a majority of the class is earning160K first year out.

And interviews depend on the firm and person. I know a ddf member who has a yalmuka and beard and got a job at a top 5 firm. So everything is relative.

The bottom line if you love it do it. If not there may be better way to make money working that many hours a week.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: michael on December 18, 2013, 08:29:45 AM
Dave,

If you want to take the patent bar, you need an undergraduate degree in one of the subjects listed in the link http://patbar.com/uspto-patent-bar-exam-requirements.shtml

About the cost of law school and whether its worth it: I always tell people to spend some time studying for the LSAT. If you find that you are naturally good at it, and ultimately do well on the LSAT, the numbers game may change somewhat. Of course, you may want to take a professional course before actually taking the exam, but I'm recommending to just buy a book and play around a bit first.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on December 18, 2013, 08:43:16 AM
It's a gamble. For some it works out for others it doesn't. You won't know for sure, so consider the possibility of failure and determine whether you can handle it financially.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 18, 2013, 10:25:36 AM
dont know what u mean by top schools, but after the top 5, no "majority of the class" is making 160k/getting NY biglaw, and if you plan to wear a yarmulke to interviews, u better be law review/top grades. I've interviewed several ortho jews at my firm, and its pretty impossible.

I'd say "majority of the class" who wants biglaw is getting it probably all the way through top 14 schools.

But I'm more intrigued by your yarmuke comment. My friends and I have wondered about this issue, but aren't quite sure how to study it. We certainly know many yarlmuke wearers at elite firms, but also know some yarlmuke wearing outliers not getting the jobs they would expect based on their school and grades.

I'm quite curious what your experience with that is
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 18, 2013, 10:43:15 AM
I feel that smart NY recruiters know what the yarlmuke entails, a guarantee of less availability and more special attention (food/timing of events etc.), and thats just a nice simple reason to move on to the so many other capable candidates (kinda like only hiring from the top 14, cut out yarlmulkes). I dont think that's even actionable discrimination, considering that availability probably should be a BFOQ at most positions in Biglaw (maybe not TE work).
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 18, 2013, 10:52:37 AM
I personally wear a yarmulke, am at a big NY law firm, and can tell you that yes, it means all those things (less availability, food requirements, etc), but it also means a guaranteed hard worker (to make up for the lost time, I come in Sundays, etc), a person who has dealt with not one curriculum for his entire life, but two (twice as much as most other candidates), and though not without exception: an honest person with integrity, a character trait that may or may not be inculcated as much if I were not a religious Jew*; etc.

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.

*I am, of course, not saying people who are not religious Jews cannot be honest, please don't interpret it that way.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 18, 2013, 11:11:56 AM
Ha, i hear u AJK, but i dont think we have that stellar reputation everywhere, i know at least a few frum peeps who tried to game the system and work as little as possible, and prejudice is very easy.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 18, 2013, 11:14:32 AM
Ha, i hear u AJK, but i dont think we have that stellar reputation everywhere, i know at least a few frum peeps who tried to game the system and work as little as possible, and prejudice is very easy.
at least you seem to be affected.:P
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 18, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
I personally wear a yarmulke, am at a big NY law firm, and can tell you that yes, it means all those things (less availability, food requirements, etc), but it also means a guaranteed hard worker (to make up for the lost time, I come in Sundays, etc), a person who has dealt with not one curriculum for his entire life, but two (twice as much as most other candidates), and though not without exception: an honest person with integrity, a character trait that may or may not be inculcated as much if I were not a religious Jew*; etc.

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.

*I am, of course, not saying people who are not religious Jews cannot be honest, please don't interpret it that way.


Thanks for sharing your experience...
Only half joking, is the bolded quote above seen as a virtue in law?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 18, 2013, 11:30:44 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience...
Only half joking, is the bolded quote above seen as a virtue in law?

Yes, we're trusted with information worth millions on a daily basis. And biglaw practice is not my cousiin vinny practice; the amounts we deal with are too large to risk on shenanigans. I've only seen real honesty
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on December 18, 2013, 11:54:03 AM

Yes, we're trusted with information worth millions on a daily basis. And biglaw practice is not my cousiin vinny practice; the amounts we deal with are too large to risk on shenanigans. I've only seen real honesty

+1
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 18, 2013, 12:02:24 PM

Lawyer have a reputation for integrity and honesty. NOT!

 :)

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 18, 2013, 12:10:02 PM
Lawyer have a reputation for integrity and honesty. NOT!

 :)

Sure. Lawyers also have a reputatuion for going to court and defending criminals. Maybe like 5  people in my firm do that. Most of us don't go to court at all. Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.

So you see the public perception of lawyers is about as accurate as the public perception of how easy it is to get a legal job...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 18, 2013, 12:16:34 PM
Sure. Lawyers also have a reputatuion for going to court and defending criminals. Maybe like 5  people in my firm do that. Most of us don't go to court at all. Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.

So you see the public perception of lawyers is about as accurate as the public perception of how easy it is to get a legal job...
I recently helped a friend of mine get $200,000 back which was stolen from him, with the council of a lawyer.

He told me he always thought lawyers don't have a purpose, until now. And that pretty much sums up society's view on lawyers, hate them until they save your @ss. And when you are charged for a crime you didn't do those crim defense lawyers aren't too bad either.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 18, 2013, 12:20:00 PM

 And when you are charged for a crime you didn't do those crim defense lawyers aren't too bad either.

Yeah, but not as awesome as they are when you're charged with a crime you DID do.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Menachem613 on December 18, 2013, 12:24:13 PM
People are quick to blame lawyers but not the people who hired them.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 18, 2013, 12:26:48 PM
Yeah, but not as awesome as they are when you're charged with a crime you DID do.
lol *eye roll*
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Hirshthg on December 18, 2013, 10:56:46 PM
Sorry for the long post   ::)
Top 5 sounds about right. I know Penn more than other schools and a majority of the class is earning160K first year out.

Don’t know what u mean by top schools, but after the top 5, no "majority of the class" is making 160k/getting NY biglaw.

@Hirshthg 80 what don't find a job?

And the judiciary is also talking about making law school 2 years. Well at least justice Kennedy was last I spoke with him :P

To the above comments and some others:
1. According to an article in the New York State Bar Association (September addition) there are a number of law schools who have been sued and lost for misrepresenting their alumni's job rates. In addition to those which have won there have been a larger number of law suits brought against other schools, which did not succeed, many of which on grounds of technicalities.  Therefore for this conversation's sake, I propose that there is a difference of opinion when it comes to these numbers: P.

2. According to the above article which took the most recent data from the top 20 law schools in the country and showed the states for each school; less than 10 percent of graduating lawyers end up finding a law job with $65K+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school, and less than 20 percent find a law job with $35k+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school. This would seem at odds to the opinions listed above.

3. While a small number of top students in top schools do land $100k+ jobs there are a good number of people who graduate top in top schools and do not land a high paying legal position. You still need to calculate the value of your risk putting that $150k into an industry which as a decent probability of never being able to pay you back.

4. Justice Kennedy is a politician and he needs to say what he needs to say, however he still needs to do what he needs to do, which is to keep the hundreds of thousands of licensed lawyers who doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing out of the courtrooms.

5. To all of you legal reputation commentators: first of all in light of the above you may see who a fellow who owes more than he will ever make back in a salary will take a chance at a shady hand... Second people hate lawyers because they dislike people who talk another language which they can't understand. Third lawyers are subject to stricter personal obligations and ethics that (almost) any other industry, therefore hearing that an attorney's conduct is held "unethical" is hardly the same standard as anyone else's. Forth about the criminal justice system, if you had any experience or understanding at the corruption and injustice of the prosecution system you would not be so quick to condemn a lawyer for representing a "criminal" aka alleged crime.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 12:22:26 AM
Sorry for the long post   ::)
To the above comments and some others:
1. According to an article in the New York State Bar Association (September addition) there are a number of law schools who have been sued and lost for misrepresenting their alumni's job rates. In addition to those which have won there have been a larger number of law suits brought against other schools, which did not succeed, many of which on grounds of technicalities.  Therefore for this conversation's sake, I propose that there is a difference of opinion when it comes to these numbers: P.

2. According to the above article which took the most recent data from the top 20 law schools in the country and showed the states for each school; less than 10 percent of graduating lawyers end up finding a law job with $65K+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school, and less than 20 percent find a law job with $35k+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school. This would seem at odds to the opinions listed above.

3. While a small number of top students in top schools do land $100k+ jobs there are a good number of people who graduate top in top schools and do not land a high paying legal position. You still need to calculate the value of your risk putting that $150k into an industry which as a decent probability of never being able to pay you back.

4. Justice Kennedy is a politician and he needs to say what he needs to say, however he still needs to do what he needs to do, which is to keep the hundreds of thousands of licensed lawyers who doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing out of the courtrooms.

5. To all of you legal reputation commentators: first of all in light of the above you may see who a fellow who owes more than he will ever make back in a salary will take a chance at a shady hand... Second people hate lawyers because they dislike people who talk another language which they can't understand. Third lawyers are subject to stricter personal obligations and ethics that (almost) any other industry, therefore hearing that an attorney's conduct is held "unethical" is hardly the same standard as anyone else's. Forth about the criminal justice system, if you had any experience or understanding at the corruption and injustice of the prosecution system you would not be so quick to condemn a lawyer for representing a "criminal" aka alleged crime.

1. Which schools were sued, afaik all of them were thrown out of court. And link?
2. link?
3. That's what everyone here was saying.
4. Supreme court justices don't have to play politician they have that job for life.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Dave321 on December 19, 2013, 12:26:43 AM
HMMMMM wondering who would be dumb enough to sue a school full of lawyers. (Not in terms of winning or losing, but they can drag out a case for a decade.)

and +1 on SCOTUS. Supreme Court Justices are positions for life. That way they can make decisions without fear of losing their job.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
I also thought all cases were chucked in response to the schools motion to dismiss.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 01:57:00 AM
Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.



Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 02:04:58 AM
Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…
Many of which built modern day economics into what it is today and without, capitalism never would have succeeded.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 02:09:59 AM

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.


I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 02:11:27 AM
Many of which built modern day economics into what it is today and without, capitalism never would have succeeded.

I was just objecting to the idea that the basis for all lawyer jokes are criminal lawyers and not Wall St. white-shoe guys.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 09:13:44 AM
I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.

To be fair, the frum partners were hired 20 years ago in a different world, and many still don't wear yarlmukes bec they don't want to switch. So it isn't surprising they'd say that.

Ask the non-frum partners.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 09:16:27 AM
Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…

Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:17:55 AM
Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.

Houses don't have intelligence or free will….
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
To be fair, the frum partners were hired 20 years ago in a different world, and many still don't wear yarlmukes bec they don't want to switch. So it isn't surprising they'd say that.

Ask the non-frum partners.

Yes, Yarmulka wearing is way more prevalent today and at least in NY will hurt you less than it would've 20 years ago. The frum partners I spoke to seemed to know a lot about their firms' hiring processes. As for asking a not frum partner/recruiters, that is something I always wanted to do, though, I don't think it would go over too well. I once asked the Yarmulka question to a law school career services guy and did not get anything near the answer I was looking for.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 10:24:41 AM
I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.

To be fair, I said "in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance" (emphasis added).

I can't claim to have done representative studies on the issue, and I certainly haven't done "extensive research on the yarmulka question" but I certainly don't think I got the job *despite* my Yarmulka.

That said, the hiring partner of my firm is religious, but does not wear a yarmulka.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:25:25 AM
Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.

Your telling me that AIG, Lehman or Bear Sterns lawyers did not realize the insane amount of unregulated risk they assisted their clients in putting on their books?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:28:16 AM
To be fair, I said "in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance" (emphasis added).

I can't claim to have done representative studies on the issue, and I certainly haven't done "extensive research on the yarmulka question" but I certainly don't think I got the job *despite* my Yarmulka.

Do you think you would have gotten more offers w/o a yarmulka?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 10:37:41 AM
Houses don't have intelligence or free will….

Neither do contracts.

Which isn't the point. The point is that tranched residential mortgage backed securities caused the crisis  (specifically, the failure of the insurers to price the risk of failure accurately).

Like any business, it needs to be contracted. But to blame the issue on the contract-or even the people who write them, makes about as much sense as blaming the houses.
Your telling me that AIG, Lehman or Bear Sterns lawyers did not realize the insane amount of unregulated risk they assisted their clients in putting on their books?

I have no idea if they did or didn't. Nor do I have any idea if the accountants realized, or if the ibankers realized, or if the secretaries who printed the contracts or the document processors who formatted the contracts realized. In all events, it certainly had nothing to do with the making of contracts instead of just going by "ones word".

And in all events, blaming the legal profession for the mess because you think some lawyers were aware of the things that the bankers were doing, is hilarious.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:45:36 AM
Neither do contracts.

Which isn't the point. The point is that tranched residential mortgage backed securities caused the crisis  (specifically, the failure of the insurers to price the risk of failure accurately).

Like any business, it needs to be contracted. But to blame the issue on the contract-or even the people who write them, makes about as much sense as blaming the houses.
I have no idea if they did or didn't. Nor do I have any idea if the accountants realized, or if the ibankers realized, or if the secretaries who printed the contracts or the document processors who formatted the contracts realized. In all events, it certainly had nothing to do with the making of contracts instead of just going by "ones word".

And in all events, blaming the legal profession for the mess because you think some lawyers were aware of the things that the bankers were doing, is hilarious.

New Joke: Why did the lawyer draft the contract (Or RS/OM)? Because the banker asked him to.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
Yes, Yarmulka wearing is way more prevalent today and at least in NY will hurt you less than it would've 20 years ago. The frum partners I spoke to seemed to know a lot about their firms' hiring processes. As for asking a not frum partner/recruiters, that is something I always wanted to do, though, I don't think it would go over too well. I once asked the Yarmulka question to a law school career services guy and did not get anything near the answer I was looking for.

Look, I do not believe that hiring committees in recent years explicitly discuss the fact that a candidate wore a yarmuke. If it makes a difference, it would be in the perceptions of the interviewers, and affect how the write the review which they send to hiring committee.

So it isn't exactly clear what insight into hiring practices one might have. That's why  I say to ask the nonfrum partners whether it has an effect on themselves.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:55:56 AM
Look, I do not believe that hiring committees in recent years explicitly discuss the fact that a candidate wore a yarmuke. If it makes a difference, it would be in the perceptions of the interviewers, and affect how the write the review which they send to hiring committee.

So it isn't exactly clear what insight into hiring practices one might have. That's why  I say to ask the nonfrum partners whether it has an effect on themselves.

Obviously, the people I asked were expressing their own personal opinion and I wouldn't know where they gain their insight into their firms' hiring processes from. One of the best answers I have gotten so far is that a Yarmulka creates a barrier on the 20 min. screener. Point is you have 20 min to make an excellent impression and it could take the whole interview for the screener to get over the Yarmulka. Imagine a guy sitting down to a screener with a huge cross hanging down from his neck. Everyone is going to argue that it is much different but is it??? I have tried to feel out people I have gone to school with and worked with at a firm to see if this idea is true (Did it take them some time to warm up to me because of my Yarmulka). It seems that it depends on the person's pre-exposure to "frum" people.   
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:58:29 AM
Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

But now that I am asking you to think about it?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 10:59:54 AM
I would have gotten the same job, because that's what was meant for me. Or I would have gotten a job with the same salary elsewhere that leads to the same stress, same hours, same everything. Ultimately, it makes no difference.

As my mother says, "one can never go wrong by doing the right thing."
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:01:00 AM
But now that I am asking you to think about it?
Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

Let me make it easier for you: consider the school you went to, the market you work in (I assume NYC), your grades, and the time period you entered the market, adjust for external factors (Are you the super personal/quiet type). Now, do you think you got as many offers as a comparable classmate?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:02:00 AM
I would have gotten the same job, because that's what was meant for me.

Whole different topic  :D…..
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:07:23 AM
Let me make it easier for you: consider the school you went to, the market you work in (I assume NYC), your grades, and the time period you entered the market, adjust for external factors (Are you the super personal/quiet type). Now, do you think you got as many offers as a comparable classmate?

I came out of school during perhaps the bloodiest carnage that we'd seen in 40 years of legal hiring, so I'm happy to have any job. But I got the job that was coming to me. And did so with a yarmulka.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 19, 2013, 11:11:17 AM
Amen, AJK is an exceptionally faithful person. I believe in a stronger level of bechira (the Ohr Hachaim view) that we can do things that are not necessarily in the plan, and of course our activities affect us (so e.g. if instead of stealing $100 or working for the "intended" $10 i just sit at home and watch Ricki Lake, i won't even get $10).

per my experience and anecdotally, yarmulke does make a difference, but hey, a lot of this is "luck/hashgacha pratis" in any event. but if u are a guy that will wear a yarmulke, i would strongly suggest u take the significant chance of more rigorous hiring scrutiny in your law school decision.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 11:12:29 AM
I like my job. I like nest. In all the world, my nest is best.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:14:11 AM
Amen, AJK is an exceptionally faithful person. I believe in a stronger level of bechira (the Ohr Hachaim view) that we can do things that are not necessarily in the plan, and of course our activities affect us (so e.g. if instead of stealing $100 or working for the "intended" $10 i just sit at home and watch Ricki Lake, i won't even get $10).

per my experience and anecdotally, yarmulke does make a difference, but hey, a lot of this is "luck/hashgacha pratis" in any event. but if u are a guy that will wear a yarmulke, i would strongly suggest u take the significant chance of more rigorous hiring scrutiny in your law school decision.

Ricki Lake!?!? That show is still around?? Blast from the past...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
Of course. I should be clearer.

As I always say: If a person is "meant to" live until 98 years old, but at 27 decides to snort coke and then play in traffic on the 405 while blindfolded, he has no "tayna" on Gd when he gets up to the "Pearly Gates" and says: "But, wait! I has 'supposed' to to have 71 more years!!"  ::)

However, acting within the realm of what's considered "normal" or "right" (those can both be debated ad nauseaum), one will get exactly what's meant for him or her.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:18:47 AM
Of course. I should be clearer.

As I always say: If a person is "meant to" live until 98 years old, but at 27 decides to snort coke and then play in traffic on the 405 while blindfolded, he has no "tayna" on Gd when he gets up to the "Pearly Gates" and says: "But, wait! I has 'supposed' to to have 71 more years!!"  ::)

However, acting within the realm of what's considered "normal" or "right" (those can both be debated ad nauseaum), one will get exactly what's meant for him or her.

I personally am not sure how G-d operates. I never met him. Would love to though (not too soon)
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:20:12 AM
Well, then trust me on this.

You'd have no tayna on Gd in the above scenario.

I've met Him. Do so every day.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: twentie4hrs on December 19, 2013, 11:20:18 AM
Of course. I should be clearer.

As I always say: If a person is "meant to" live until 98 years old, but at 27 decides to snort coke and then play in traffic on the 405 while blindfolded, he has no "tayna" on Gd when he gets up to the "Pearly Gates" and says: "But, wait! I has 'supposed' to to have 71 more years!!"  ::)

However, acting within the realm of what's considered "normal" or "right" (those can both be debated ad nauseaum), one will get exactly what's meant for him or her.

This is all subjective to the location of the firm.

In larger cities with more "yarmulke-wearing Jews" there is going to above-average consideration (Could be good, Could be bad, Could not make a difference) in the hiring practices, just based on more exposure to Jews in general.

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:21:15 AM
This is all subjective to the location of the firm.

In larger cities with more "yarmulke-wearing Jews" there is going to above-average consideration (Could be good, Could be bad, Could not make a difference) in the hiring practices, just based on more exposure to Jews in general.

100%.

That's why I was quick to say that I made the decision in the context of "this particular job in this particular market."

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: twentie4hrs on December 19, 2013, 11:22:05 AM
100%.

That's why I was quick to say that I made the decision in the context of "this particular job in this particular market."

I know…it was more meant for the other guys
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:22:53 AM
Slightly OT: But my father (who worked down south) was once asked by a colleague if he'd obliger her by showing her "his horns under his skull cap."
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:24:35 AM
Slightly OT: But my father (who worked down south) was once asked by a colleague if he'd obliger her by showing her "his horns under his skull cap."

I am amazed when I hear those stories. Are people still so ignorant?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: twentie4hrs on December 19, 2013, 11:25:17 AM
I am amazed when I hear those stories. Are people still so ignorant?

Wait a minute…I'm not supposed to have horns?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:26:09 AM
I am amazed when I hear those stories. Are people still so ignorant?

This was 40+ years ago, if it makes a difference to your amazement.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
This was 40+ years ago, if it makes a difference to your amazement.
Happened to me a couple times on a greyhound bus in the past 10 years.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 11:36:53 AM
Happened to me a couple times on a greyhound bus in the past 10 years.

Perhaps because taking greyhound busses is so 40 years ago...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: abbabarpoppa on December 19, 2013, 06:21:24 PM
Let me make it easier for you: consider the school you went to, the market you work in (I assume NYC), your grades, and the time period you entered the market, adjust for external factors (Are you the super personal/quiet type). Now, do you think you got as many offers as a comparable classmate?

Using the formula that you set out, I think that if anything I out-performed my comparable classmates while wearing a kippah to every interview. I think that when interviewers are seeing 20-30 candidates a day, it can be hard to remember exactly who was whom. Having a distinguishing feature makes it easier for them to remember the impression you made- good or bad. I even had an interview where I talked at length about being shomer shabbat and the discipline, work ethic, and sense of self-identity that these restrictions have fostered. (I got a callback but turned it down).

I'm not saying that this is definitely the case with everyone, but you have to be very careful about the self-affirmation bias. If someone hears even a hint that it may not be their qualifications that lost them the job, they are quick to jump on it. So even if the kippa is playing some small role, I think it is very easy for people to play up that role, rather than be introspective about how their personality or life experiences may have impacted them.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 06:54:37 PM

I'm not saying that this is definitely the case with everyone, but you have to be very careful about the self-affirmation bias. If someone hears even a hint that it may not be their qualifications that lost them the job, they are quick to jump on it. So even if the kippa is playing some small role, I think it is very easy for people to play up that role, rather than be introspective about how their personality or life experiences may have impacted them.

Please explain more clearly what you are saying?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 19, 2013, 07:40:56 PM
Please explain more clearly what you are saying?
to blame yourself not your yalmuka.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 08:24:12 PM
to blame yourself not your yalmuka.

Thanks. I didn't understand the part about lost jobs. I don't think people actually lost their law jobs due to wearing a Yarmulka, I just think it negatively impacts you on the 20min screener. 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 08:29:10 PM
Thanks. I didn't understand the part about lost jobs. I don't think people actually lost their law jobs due to wearing a Yarmulka, I just think it negatively impacts you on the 20min screener. 
I never went though interviews so I don't feel comfortable giving an opinion but this made a lot of sense to me
BTLs in my experience were not at a particular disadvantage with respect to actual classes or performance on law school exams. Instead, the real challenges appeared to arise in interviews where they often lacked the confidence to convince a hiring partner that they were just as savvy and prepared as the their peers who came up through more traditional channels.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 09:57:21 PM
I never went though interviews so I don't feel comfortable giving an opinion but this made a lot of sense to me

BTLs!!! thats a whole other story. I don't see how a BTL wouldn't hurt you.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:00:31 PM
I never went though interviews so I don't feel comfortable giving an opinion but this made a lot of sense to me


It is hard to generalize but I do think that most BTLs (Yeshiva guys) are at a disadvantage when they go to law school…at least at a top-tiered school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 19, 2013, 10:09:05 PM

It is hard to generalize but I do think that most BTLs (Yeshiva guys) are at a disadvantage when they go to law school…at least at a top-tiered school.
The schooling or the other parts?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 10:23:53 PM

It is hard to generalize but I do think that most BTLs (Yeshiva guys) are at a disadvantage when they go to law school…at least at a top-tiered school.

That has not been my experience.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 10:28:29 PM
That has not been my experience.

I was generalizing or at least attempting to. I am assuming you have a BTL…you don't think it put you at a disadvantage w/ regard to getting a job? I would think it would adversely effect you even more in an out-of-NY market.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 19, 2013, 11:20:37 PM
I was generalizing or at least attempting to. I am assuming you have a BTL…you don't think it put you at a disadvantage w/ regard to getting a job? I would think it would adversely effect you even more in an out-of-NY market.
Are you saying BTLs aren't prepared for the schooling? Or it looks bad on your resume? Or they aren't prepared to interview?
I'd disagree about one and two (if he went to a top school) and agree with number three
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 11:28:23 PM
I was generalizing or at least attempting to. I am assuming you have a BTL…you don't think it put you at a disadvantage w/ regard to getting a job? I would think it would adversely effect you even more in an out-of-NY market.

I'm saying it has not been my experience among myself and people I know that BTL's are disadvantaged in any significant way once they get to law school.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:32:19 PM
Are you saying BTLs aren't prepared for the schooling? Or it looks bad on your resume? Or they aren't prepared to interview?
I'd disagree about one and two (if he went to a top school) and agree with number three

I would say the exact opposite. The LSATs are totally different than a law school exam. I would say its easier for a Yeshiva guy to do extremely well on the LSAT, get into a top school but then have trouble keeping up with his Harvard, Yale, Princeton educated classmates when it comes to the Final Exam process. As for resume, I think it looks pretty bad, especially at a top school where most of his classmates have: BA, Princeton University, and he has: BTL, Beth Medrash Gevoah. As for interview, I think a yeshiva guy may be able to make up for his weaknesses if he has a really confident personality, dresses well, and could talk the talk and play the game.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 11:36:43 PM
I would say the exact opposite. The LSATs are totally different than a law school exam. I would say its easier for a Yeshiva guy to do extremely well on the LSAT, get into a top school but then have trouble keeping up with his Harvard, Yale, Princeton educated classmates when it comes to the Final Exam process. As for resume, I think it looks pretty bad, especially at a top school where most of his classmates have: BA, Princeton University, and he has: BTL, Beth Medrash Gevoah. As for interview, I think a yeshiva guy may be able to make up for his weaknesses if he has a really confident personality, dresses well, and could talk the talk and play the game.
If you are in Harvard they don't care you went to BMG FWIU.

I do think BTL's are at a disadvantage when it comes to written exams. An A exam can have 10,000 words in 4 hours. Most yeshiva guys haven't written 10,000 in 4 years.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:37:50 PM
I'm saying it has not been my experience among myself and people I know that BTL's are disadvantaged in any significant way once they get to law school.

How could it not disadvantage you on an interview?? That doesn't make sense. They defineltly do consider your undergraduate degree , meaning a candidate with a  degree from Stanford trumps a candidate with a degree from Touro, all else considered equal. I would think a BTL is inferior to most BA's especially those held by students in top law schools? What your saying just doesn't seem to make sense. Granted there are rare exceptions (A guy with a BTL once saved the interviewer's life etc.) but if I had to generalize…..
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:40:01 PM
If you are in Harvard they don't care you went to BMG FWIU.

I do think BTL's are at a disadvantage when it comes to written exams. An A exam can have 10,000 words in 4 hours. Most yeshiva guys haven't written 10,000 in 4 years.

Defineltly true about exams. Thats why Yeshiava guys have to find the classes with multiple choice exams  :D

As for Harvard, I would think employers do care, at least some. Granted it would mean only getting 15 offers instead of 20  :'(  Add a yarmulka and it may drop to 10.  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 11:42:03 PM
Defineltly true about exams. Thats why Yeshiava guys have to find the classes with multiple choice exams  :D
1L grades is what matters and you don't choose your course at least 6/8 you don't generally.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:43:26 PM
1L grades is what matters and you don't choose your course at least 6/8 you don't generally.

Thats true. But I do have friends who boosted their grades tremendously during 2L year taking the "right" courses and who were able to score BigLaw jobs.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 19, 2013, 11:43:55 PM
Everyone here makes it seem like getting into Harvard=big law job. I know people who are under or unemployed graduating from Harvard
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 19, 2013, 11:44:55 PM
Everyone here makes it seem like getting into Harvard=big law job. I know people who are under or unemployed graduating from Harvard

Yeah, URMs.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on December 19, 2013, 11:46:51 PM
Yeah, URMs.
-1
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 19, 2013, 11:47:19 PM
Everyone here makes it seem like getting into Harvard=big law job. I know people who are under or unemployed graduating from Harvard
Said earlier in this thread Penn has higher big law employment percentages than Harvard :)

Title: Re: Law School
Post by: AJK on December 19, 2013, 11:54:06 PM
URM?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 20, 2013, 12:04:10 AM
URM?
under represented minority. He's saying blacks and latinos get in because of URM receiving affirmative action in applications, but they don't score as well in school and therefore do not get jobs like everyone else. Or that hiring partners are still racist.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 20, 2013, 12:17:04 AM
under represented minority. He's saying blacks and latinos get in because of URM receiving affirmative action in applications, but they don't score as well in school and therefore do not get jobs like everyone else. Or that hiring partners are still racist.

I was definitely surprised when there was not one black in my summer class (at a BigLaw firm). At my firm there are maybe a couple of black partners and only several black associates. This is after hearing so much abut how diverse they were during the recruiting process.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 20, 2013, 12:18:58 AM
Said earlier in this thread Penn has higher big law employment percentages than Harvard :)

Could just mean that a higher percentage of students at Penn are shooting for BigLaw than HLS students who may be going into the public sector at a higher percentage than Penn students.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 20, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
I would say the exact opposite. The LSATs are totally different than a law school exam. I would say its easier for a Yeshiva guy to do extremely well on the LSAT, get into a top school but then have trouble keeping up with his Harvard, Yale, Princeton educated classmates when it comes to the Final Exam process. As for resume, I think it looks pretty bad, especially at a top school where most of his classmates have: BA, Princeton University, and he has: BTL, Beth Medrash Gevoah. As for interview, I think a yeshiva guy may be able to make up for his weaknesses if he has a really confident personality, dresses well, and could talk the talk and play the game.

I am a BTLer, and i wholeheartedly approve this message except as to the last part, that is fully dependent on a special personality, who would naturally go far anywhere.
i did great on all short answer/multiple choice exams in my life, but pretty bad on my first law school exams (never wrote anything for anyone before law school so im sure my exam responses were in full yeshivishese).

Re URMs, i think that point is silly, as many firms grab them up because its good on their website and clients like it, and to be clear, i know several who are very smart and capable and i love working with them (in fact i dont remember ever working with an incapable one, as opposed to smart-ass whitey's who have gotten their life delivered on a silver platter b/c their dads went to harvard).
 
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on December 20, 2013, 12:34:08 AM
Could just mean that a higher percentage of students at Penn are shooting for BigLaw than HLS students who may be going into the public sector at a higher percentage than Penn students.
As was said earlier.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 20, 2013, 12:36:01 AM
As was said earlier.

I'm sure it was…very popular and common answer to that statistic
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Frostboot on December 20, 2013, 12:38:39 AM

i know several who are very smart and capable and i love working with them

You say it as if it is a surprise. That disturbs me a bit.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 20, 2013, 03:42:30 AM
no surprise on my behalf (read the rest), just noting the difference from the unfair perception.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 06:40:19 AM
If you are in Harvard they don't care you went to BMG FWIU.

I do think BTL's are at a disadvantage when it comes to written exams. An A exam can have 10,000 words in 4 hours. Most yeshiva guys haven't written 10,000 in 4 years.

Well, classic TLS wisdom is that you are correct, and would suggest that yeshiva guys should practice typing.

I have always disagreed with TLS on this though, as my experience has been that short answers with terrible grammar do fine.

Also, by the end of first semester, I kind of was figuring out how to type, from taking notes.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 07:26:28 AM
How could it not disadvantage you on an interview?? That doesn't make sense. They defineltly do consider your undergraduate degree , meaning a candidate with a  degree from Stanford trumps a candidate with a degree from Touro, all else considered equal. I would think a BTL is inferior to most BA's especially those held by students in top law schools? What your saying just doesn't seem to make sense. Granted there are rare exceptions (A guy with a BTL once saved the interviewer's life etc.) but if I had to generalize…..

I don't think this is so to very signifcant extent. But it could be true to a small extent. Nor have I seen this suggested on TLS. Noone on the OCI threads talks about what undergrad they went toz.

For example, the schools publish internally what jobs their people got from OCI and with what grades. I've never heard them suggest that it might matter what undergrad you went to?

I think its pretty much assumed that if you got into this law school, then everything you did beforehand checks out.

Kind of the same way it doesn't really matter where you went to law school by the time you're looking to latteral.



Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on December 20, 2013, 12:36:23 PM
As an aside, i always assumed my BTL from an Israeli school (Yerushalayim) helped me into getting into a Law School T5, because the law school preferred listing how many different schools and international schools and cities its class is from for diversity/US News. if i went to Touro, i wonder if i would have got in...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: solls108 on February 08, 2015, 02:10:07 PM
Boy have the rankings changed...
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 08, 2015, 02:34:01 PM
Boy have the rankings changed...
?

T14 look the same to me.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: Ergel on February 08, 2015, 03:10:58 PM
Smaller hasagos
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: solls108 on February 09, 2015, 12:10:37 PM
?

T14 look the same to me.

Ya, but they all moved around.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 09, 2015, 12:11:55 PM
Ya, but they all moved around.
Not really. Seems to all be around the same spot as last year.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: casualchurner on February 18, 2015, 09:48:59 AM
Figured this was the best thread......
I've heard guys mention taking a pre law school course (help with legal writing/what to expect in law school). Anyone know of such courses/programs?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 18, 2015, 09:57:32 AM
Figured this was the best thread......
I've heard guys mention taking a pre law school course (help with legal writing/what to expect in law school). Anyone know of such courses/programs?

Waste of time.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 18, 2015, 10:06:55 AM
Waste of time.
+1 that's what the first 3 days of school usually are. Something like leews may be recommended but really depends on the person.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on February 18, 2015, 10:24:43 AM
i came in straight from yeshiva and did terrible on my first year exams (never learned how to write with structure, and though i spotted every issue and more, it was definitely hard to read), i took leews and i did much better from then on, but that could have been due to lots of things. iirc i got a discount somehow but it was long ago.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on February 18, 2015, 10:25:18 AM
+1 that's what the first 3 days of school usually are. Something like leews may be recommended but really depends on the person.

I bought LEEWS.  Cost like a hundred bucks.

I was a 1L--you think I had time to listen to LEEWS? lol. I listened to like an hour and then went back to studying.

So what, you will listen to it before classes start? I don't think you'll understand it yet. 

Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on February 18, 2015, 10:37:02 AM
I bought LEEWS.  Cost like a hundred bucks.

I was a 1L--you think I had time to listen to LEEWS? lol. I listened to like an hour and then went back to studying.

So what, you will listen to it before classes start? I don't think you'll understand it yet. 

Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!
If you had listened to leews you wouldn't have had to study as hard :P

Anyway listening before school starts and then as a reminder over Thanksgiving break would be good IMHO.

If someone has no idea how to write their thoughts on paper they can take a writing course. Fwiu though that's all you need to be able to do, write down your thoughts.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: casualchurner on February 18, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Just checked out this LEEWS thing. It looks pretty good. Thanks for the advice.
Did you use it jj? Did it help?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: shiframeir on February 18, 2015, 10:57:04 AM
Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!
+108. this was great back in the day but ITE :)? can we still say ITE?
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on April 03, 2015, 06:49:25 PM
So you're emailing a client 2 minutes before lecht bentchen on erev pesach.  You know the contact at client is frum.  He has no idea who you are.

Do you sign off happy passover? gut yontif? chag kasher v'sameach (you know he is not at inlaws or hotel)?

I'm going with happy passover.

ETA:  I've also been tempted to sign emails today with "Good Friday, henche."
Title: Law School
Post by: benjie1305 on April 05, 2015, 04:49:24 AM
So you're emailing a client 2 minutes before lecht bentchen on erev pesach.  You know the contact at client is frum.  He has no idea who you are.

Do you sign off happy passover? gut yontif? chag kasher v'sameach (you know he is not at inlaws or hotel)?

I'm going with happy passover.

ETA:  I've also been tempted to sign emails today with "Good Friday, henche."

Fan of that one!
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: eliteflyer on April 06, 2015, 10:36:51 AM
So you're emailing a client 2 minutes before lecht bentchen on erev pesach.  You know the contact at client is frum.  He has no idea who you are.

Do you sign off happy passover? gut yontif? chag kasher v'sameach (you know he is not at inlaws or hotel)?

I'm going with happy passover.

ETA:  I've also been tempted to sign emails today with "Good Friday, henche."
I've received unprompted "good shabbos" signatures from clients/counterparties on Friday correspondence. A Jewish geography email volley inevitably ensues.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: henche on April 06, 2015, 11:10:58 AM
I've received unprompted "good shabbos" signatures from clients/counterparties on Friday correspondence. A Jewish geography email volley inevitably ensues.


I should have added that there were 2 other people from the client and a partner from the firm on the email.
Title: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: prelaw on April 19, 2015, 08:32:03 PM
Originally I was planning on only applying to law schools traveling distance from Brooklyn, intending to commute to and from law school daily. Recently, however, people have been telling me that I may be unnecessarily limiting my opportunities by doing so,as getting into a top law school is very important to job prospects and I may not be able to get into the two top law schools that are within traveling distance - Columbia and NYU.

Thoughts? Comments? What would the pros/cons be of limiting myself to NY/going away from NY. Anybody here with experience moving for law school? What do you do for Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Especially interested in people with personal experience/people who personally know of individuals who moved for law school. What are the challenges of being frum and moving for law school?

My background: Born, raised and went to yeshiva in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 19, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
Originally I was planning on only applying to law schools traveling distance from Brooklyn, intending to commute to and from law school daily. Recently, however, people have been telling me that I may be unnecessarily limiting my opportunities by doing so,as getting into a top law school is very important to job prospects and I may not be able to get into the two top law schools that are within traveling distance - Columbia and NYU.

Thoughts? Comments? What would the pros/cons be of limiting myself to NY/going away from NY. Anybody here with experience moving for law school? What do you do for Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Especially interested in people with personal experience/people who personally know of individuals who moved for law school. What are the challenges of being frum and moving for law school?

My background: Born, raised and went to yeshiva in Brooklyn.

Don't limit yourself. Get out of New York. Broaden your horizons. There are so many nice communities outside of the tri-state area. You will be a better Jew for it. If you go to Pitt, I will have you for your first shabbos.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: sky121 on April 19, 2015, 08:51:00 PM
I'd apply to other schools. Nice opportunity to experience another place.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Chapshnell on April 19, 2015, 10:05:54 PM
are you single? if yes, go for it man
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 19, 2015, 10:19:18 PM
All depends on your options in NY vs your options out of NY.  If your option in NY is Fordham, that may be different than if it was BLS. If your option oot is Penn, that may be different than if it was GW. Apply everywhere and come back when you get your results.

If you have decent lsat scores, I'd recommending asking some schools for fee waivers. Some might send you them on their own.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dave A on April 19, 2015, 10:52:23 PM
There's no challenge to "being frum" and moving to a number of cities for law school, including LA, DC, Chicago, and Philly.  That said, don't go to law school if you can't get into a top-25 school (unless you can get full scholarship, and even then it could be a waste of time, unless you really want to be a lawyer).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: SPLP on April 20, 2015, 03:20:57 AM
" could be a waste of time"


 
No education is ever  a waste of time

I think one of the best education is law school even if never practice--- it teaches "a way of thinking" in my family - my wife is an attorney- 8 nieces and nephews are attorney or judges  , my long time business partner was an attorney ( In an industry  with no need to be an attorney )

GO TO THE BEST LAW SCHOOL YOU CAN

   
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: MosheD on April 20, 2015, 03:46:17 AM
I have a relative who is a yeshiva guy, and is going to Harvard. It's not impossible to keep your hashkafa and go to a good school.  Some of my friends that I am most impressed with are the ones who remained "yeshiva guys" throughout university/law/med school
And to add a little chabad hashkafa, you never know the impression/influence you may have in a less frequently area. An opportunity to raise more sparks
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 20, 2015, 07:04:49 AM


There's no challenge to "being frum" and moving to a number of cities for law school, including LA, DC, Chicago, and Philly. 
-1000

I went to the frumest law school in America and witnessed many people fall, particularly the single guys. It takes a great deal of strength to go to an out of town school and maintain your level of frumkeit.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on April 20, 2015, 07:16:08 AM
-1000

I went to the frumest law school in America and witnessed many people fall, particularly the single guys. It takes a great deal of strength to go to an out of town school and maintain your level of frumkeit.
+ 1

Seen it happen right here in NY.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: incendia on April 20, 2015, 08:06:47 AM
-1000

I went to the frumest law school in America and witnessed many people fall, particularly the single guys. It takes a great deal of strength to go to an out of town school and maintain your level of frumkeit.

maybe they weren't at frum as you thought
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2015, 08:22:01 AM
Originally I was planning on only applying to law schools traveling distance from Brooklyn, intending to commute to and from law school daily. Recently, however, people have been telling me that I may be unnecessarily limiting my opportunities by doing so,as getting into a top law school is very important to job prospects and I may not be able to get into the two top law schools that are within traveling distance - Columbia and NYU.

Thoughts? Comments? What would the pros/cons be of limiting myself to NY/going away from NY. Anybody here with experience moving for law school? What do you do for Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Especially interested in people with personal experience/people who personally know of individuals who moved for law school. What are the challenges of being frum and moving for law school?

My background: Born, raised and went to yeshiva in Brooklyn.

First take the LSAT see what you get and then worry about where to apply.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 20, 2015, 08:24:13 AM
-1000

I went to the frumest law school in America and witnessed many people fall, particularly the single guys. It takes a great deal of strength to go to an out of town school and maintain your level of frumkeit.
Let's be realistic. That IS the main challenge. It's not "hashkafa" that leads people astray. It's basic human desires. Afterwards comes the hashkafa adjustments.

Ideally, you should get married before law school. If you don't know how to get through law school while supporting a family, ask the kollel guys. In other words, there's no excuse to say that it's financially impractical.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 20, 2015, 08:39:41 AM
Originally I was planning on only applying to law schools traveling distance from Brooklyn, intending to commute to and from law school daily. Recently, however, people have been telling me that I may be unnecessarily limiting my opportunities by doing so,as getting into a top law school is very important to job prospects and I may not be able to get into the two top law schools that are within traveling distance - Columbia and NYU.

Thoughts? Comments? What would the pros/cons be of limiting myself to NY/going away from NY. Anybody here with experience moving for law school? What do you do for Shabbos and Yom Tov?

Especially interested in people with personal experience/people who personally know of individuals who moved for law school. What are the challenges of being frum and moving for law school?

My background: Born, raised and went to yeshiva in Brooklyn.
You're missing lots of info. Are you married? CAN you get into Columbia or not? If yes why go anywhere else (unless it's Harvard or something)?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Sport on April 20, 2015, 08:51:39 AM
Let's be realistic. That IS the main challenge. It's not "hashkafa" that leads people astray. It's basic human desires. Afterwards comes the hashkafa adjustments.

Ideally, you should get married before law school. If you don't know how to get through law school while supporting a family, ask the kollel guys. In other words, there's no excuse to say that it's financially impractical.
Not everybody can make the sacrifices kollel memebers (supposedly) make.
Besides, many receive financial support which may not be availble or offered to a law school students.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2015, 09:00:52 AM
I went to the frumest law school in America and witnessed many people fall, particularly the single guys. It takes a great deal of strength to go to an out of town school and maintain your level of frumkeit.

ftfy
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 20, 2015, 09:03:07 AM
Harvard is practically a BMG affiliate these days.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2015, 09:26:57 AM
Harvard is practically a BMG affiliate these days.
Ya, I hear their degrees are worthless.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 20, 2015, 09:30:08 AM
If you do well on the LSAT, apply to most of the T-14 schools. The extra $1,000 that you may end up spending on application fees is worth not being limited. It can also sometimes be easier to get into non-NY schools because the demand for NYU and Columbia is very high. Speaking from personal experience, I'm in law school now. And FYI, NY isn't the only city that has Jewish communities...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on April 20, 2015, 09:30:40 AM
Harvard is practically a BMG affiliate these days.

I think henche is jealous
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2015, 09:34:08 AM
If you do well on the LSAT, apply to most of the T-14 schools. The extra $1,000 that you may end up spending on application fees is worth not being limited. It can also sometimes be easier to get into non-NY schools because the demand for NYU and Columbia is very high. Speaking from personal experience, I'm in law school now. And FYI, NY isn't the only city that has Jewish communities...
Agree 100%. But I don't think the conversation even starts until you take the lsat...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 20, 2015, 09:37:03 AM
Agree 100%. But I don't think the conversation even starts until you take the lsat...

+1000. I expected us to agree. After all, we went to the same school  ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: heimishbrisker on April 20, 2015, 11:12:46 AM
Harvard is practically a BMG affiliate these days.
Confirmed (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/20/7f33dd4b98b97e86924489aba7375188.jpg)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 20, 2015, 11:20:53 AM
Harvard is practically a BMG affiliate these days.
Totally not true. You have to do exceptionally well on the LSAT and then a minority of those gets in. For every one you hear went from BMG to Harvard there are a few who tried but didn't get in.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: michael on April 20, 2015, 06:28:20 PM
Confirmed

Brisker, my not frum law school professor (same school as JJ and CS91) told me that he considers Brisk as the Harvard of all yeshivas.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 20, 2015, 06:39:54 PM
If you arent getting into columbia/NYU, and you plan on wearing a yarmulke to interviews/your job, i recommend not going to any law school without a huge scholarship; the odds are heavily against you making your investment (plus loss of 3 years work oppty) back. Unless your family is rich and you want to waste their money to make people think you are smart (or foolish).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 20, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Brisker, my not frum law school professor (same school as JJ and CS91) told me that he considers Brisk as the Harvard of all yeshivas.

So you know who I am but I don't know who you are?  ???
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: michael on April 20, 2015, 07:06:14 PM
So you know who I am but I don't know who you are?  ???

No - I only know which school JJ went to. Feel free to introduce yourself via PM though.  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 20, 2015, 07:18:03 PM
To answer the OP's questions, I would definitely consider broadening your search to other cities.  Regarding others' observations that you must go to a top law school for it to be worth it, that's BS.

Disclaimer:  I went to MD Law, which was in the 30s at the time, but I never had big law aspirations.  And I do alright.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 20, 2015, 07:19:29 PM
No - I only know which school JJ went to. Feel free to introduce yourself via PM though.  :)

Sent you one :) Happy to know I'm not the only one on this site at the law school when I should really be studying.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 20, 2015, 07:23:39 PM
If you arent getting into columbia/NYU, and you plan on wearing a yarmulke to interviews/your job, i recommend not going to any law school without a huge scholarship; the odds are heavily against you making your investment (plus loss of 3 years work oppty) back. Unless your family is rich and you want to waste their money to make people think you are smart (or foolish).
That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 20, 2015, 11:42:46 PM
That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.
A separate discussion but it's actually common practice among frum lawyers, especially partners, and it's not without a good basis (though I'm not saying yes or no, just pouring out it has its merits).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 20, 2015, 11:47:06 PM
A separate discussion but it's actually common practice among frum lawyers, especially partners, and it's not without a good basis (though I'm not saying yes or no, just pouring out it has its merits).
I repeat my vociferous objection. I cannot stand by idly when such a comments are posted.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 21, 2015, 12:10:56 AM
That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.
Success in life is achieved by being able to attract peoples attention and trust. The only well paid lawyers are those who carry clients. Doing well is a fiction that only works in school and few narrow technical fields, where the maximum upside earning potential is extremely limited (actuaries, etc).

You can argue that all parnassa is from hashem, but then Talent/motivation are irrelevant, and it the question is only if taking off Yramulka is permitted and required for hishtadlus.

There are many locales and fields where Jews are respected and a yarmulka is an asset (Asia), there are many locales where it is an absolute liability (Saudi Arabia), and there are many place like the US where it's up for debate.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: casualchurner on April 21, 2015, 12:17:18 AM
A separate discussion but it's actually common practice among frum lawyers, especially partners, and it's not without a good basis (though I'm not saying yes or no, just pouring out it has its merits).
I'm always against justifying actions based on the number of people doing it. For all you know they could all be wrong.
What is the good basis?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 12:58:14 AM
I'm always against justifying actions based on the number of people doing it. For all you know they could all be wrong.
What is the good basis?
It's indoors, they feel it's necessary for parnassah (definitely can't make a brachah/eat or drink though). IIRC there's a tshuva from Rav Moshe about it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 21, 2015, 01:03:45 AM
Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 07:36:42 AM
Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake
Nah I'm sure he's just busy studying...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 21, 2015, 08:52:36 AM
A separate discussion but it's actually common practice among frum lawyers, especially partners, and it's not without a good basis (though I'm not saying yes or no, just pouring out it has its merits).

There is definitely a divide between biglaw partners and associates on this, but I attribute that to their age and when they entered the firms. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: michael on April 21, 2015, 09:22:00 AM
There is definitely a divide between biglaw partners and associates on this, but I attribute that to their age and when they entered the firms.

Agreed. Though I find that many associates still remove their yarmulkas.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 21, 2015, 10:39:33 AM
Agreed. Though I find that many associates still remove their yarmulkas.

Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 10:46:09 AM
Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.

So you're saying that most big law associates have beards?  :-\
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 12:35:02 PM
Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.
As he points out-
So you're saying that most big law associates have beards?  :-\
It's hard to judge these people when you're not in their shoes. Many very very frum lawyers do this so there has to be something to it, whether you agree with it completely or not.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 12:55:14 PM
Let's just assume that each individual has asked his respective LOR/Mashgiach and is doing what he's told, regardless of whether you agree with it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: avromie7 on April 21, 2015, 01:26:04 PM
If you arent getting into columbia/NYU, and you plan on wearing a yarmulke to interviews/your job, i recommend not going to any law school without a huge scholarship; the odds are heavily against you making your investment (plus loss of 3 years work oppty) back. Unless your family is rich and you want to waste their money to make people think you are smart (or foolish).
you must have had a really tough childhood
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: avromie7 on April 21, 2015, 01:27:58 PM
It's indoors, they feel it's necessary for parnassah (definitely can't make a brachah/eat or drink though). IIRC there's a tshuva from Rav Moshe about it.
Eating/drinking do not require a yarmulka only the bracha does
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2015, 01:31:18 PM
You can argue that all parnassa is from hashem, but then Talent/motivation are irrelevant, and it the question is only if taking off Yramulka is permitted and required for hishtadlus.

I can't see how removing your Yarmulkah is part of required hishtadlus...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 01:31:34 PM
Let's just assume that each individual has asked his respective LOR/Mashgiach and is doing what he's told, regardless of whether you agree with it.
Let's not assume people are robots and just "do everything they're told". Let's assume people actually think for themselves a little bit too. Shulchan aruch wasn't written just for rabbonim, people with intelligence can understand a bit too. It's not like these sources are obscure and/or very complex. It's pretty straight forward stuff.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 01:32:06 PM
Eating/drinking do not require a yarmulka only the bracha does
Correct but one follows the other.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: avromie7 on April 21, 2015, 01:34:45 PM
Correct but one follows the other.
true but it's much simpler to cover your head for a few seconds to make a bracha than to cover it while eating (we used to do it at pool party/bbq where one guy would cover the others head so he can make a bracha)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 01:37:13 PM
true but it's much simpler to cover your head for a few seconds to make a bracha than to cover it while eating (we used to do it at pool party/bbq where one guy would cover the others head so he can make a bracha)
Ha I hear.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 21, 2015, 02:25:02 PM
you must have had a really tough childhood
ha, actually had an awesome childhood BH :)
and i happen to always wear my yarmulke, and wore it on every interview. its pretty common knowledge (and i've spoken to my partners about it) that when interviewing for Biglaw having a yarmulke is generally a disadvantage, and we all know people who took some interviews with and without and found ridiculous differences in callbacks/offers. as a warning, i know someone who didnt wear in any interview and then wore on the first day to work, and he got screamed at by a couple of partners (and i think thats kinda fair, and perhaps geneivas da'as, but i understand the duress of all those loans forcing people to do what they need to do for a job).

My point isnt the yarmulke, its the investment. i dont understand why spending 150-200K for three years of hard work at a school below NYU (where as a yarmulke wearer you still only have about a 75% shot at a biglaw job if median grades, which isnt so easy btw) is worth it, when you can probably become an accountant or get another normal $40K job and gain experience and if u work as hard as u would in law school, perhaps end up much better, without all that debt.
seems like a stupid wager, and recipe for a really tough adulthood  :-\.

Freddie, dont know who u are, but u obviously have done a lot on these forums so i dont mean to upset u. but i'm just saying how i see it based on all the people i have seen go through law school (and some who i have interviewed).
PlatinumGuy, u are the man. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2015, 02:29:51 PM
Freddie, dont know who u are, but u obviously have done a lot on these forums so i dont mean to upset u. but i'm just saying how i see it based on all the people i have seen go through law school (and some who i have interviewed).
PlatinumGuy, u are the man. 

Non sequitur?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 02:34:01 PM
ha, actually had an awesome childhood BH :)
and i happen to always wear my yarmulke, and wore it on every interview. its pretty common knowledge (and i've spoken to my partners about it) that when interviewing for Biglaw having a yarmulke is generally a disadvantage, and we all know people who took some interviews with and without and found ridiculous differences in callbacks/offers. as a warning, i know someone who didnt wear in any interview and then wore on the first day to work, and he got screamed at by a couple of partners (and i think thats kinda fair, and perhaps geneivas da'as, but i understand the duress of all those loans forcing people to do what they need to do for a job).

My point isnt the yarmulke, its the investment. i dont understand why spending 150-200K for three years of hard work at a school below NYU (where as a yarmulke wearer you still only have about a 75% shot at a biglaw job if median grades, which isnt so easy btw) is worth it, when you can probably become an accountant or get another normal $40K job and gain experience and if u work as hard as u would in law school, perhaps end up much better, without all that debt.
seems like a stupid wager, and recipe for a really tough adulthood  :-\.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.  Why are you only focusing on biglaw?  The market has bounced back over the past few years and it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades and a good personality.  Networking is almost as important as grades.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 02:35:04 PM
Let's not assume people are robots and just "do everything they're told". Let's assume people actually think for themselves a little bit too. Shulchan aruch wasn't written just for rabbonim, people with intelligence can understand a bit too. It's not like these sources are obscure and/or very complex. It's pretty straight forward stuff.

I don't think you see the irony in your post.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 02:49:09 PM
That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.  Why are you only focusing on biglaw?  The market has bounced back over the past few years and it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades and a good personality.  Networking is almost as important as grades.

The market has bounced back compared to how it was in '08 and '09. But to say that "it's not difficult to find a decent job without decent grades" is super inaccurate. I know people at T-14 schools with middle of the pack grades who don't have jobs. As for networking, a good connection can get you a callback, but to actually get an offer, you gotta do it mostly on your own.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: michael on April 21, 2015, 03:02:41 PM
Slightly OT - I didn't shave this chol hamoed and got two comments from non-yarmulka wearing attorneys at my firm. Not negative comments, but I plan on speaking to my rov regarding next chol hamoed. Biglaw.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 21, 2015, 03:07:09 PM
Slightly OT - I didn't shave this chol hamoed and got two comments from non-yarmulka wearing attorneys at my firm. Not negative comments, but I plan on speaking to my rov regarding next chol hamoed. Biglaw.
That means non-yarmulka wearing frum Jewish attorneys, yes?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 21, 2015, 03:09:22 PM
Slightly OT - I didn't shave this chol hamoed and got two comments from non-yarmulka wearing attorneys at my firm. Not negative comments, but I plan on speaking to my rov regarding next chol hamoed. Biglaw.
Your asking if you shouldn't shave at all? It is the obvious solution, you wouldn't get any comments next chol hamoed...

HT: Freddie ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 21, 2015, 03:14:03 PM
i think lawyers are the one of the last professions in america that it is very common for frum jews to not wear yarmulkes
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 03:18:35 PM
The market has bounced back compared to how it was in '08 and '09. But to say that "it's not difficult to find a decent job without decent grades" is super inaccurate. I know people at T-14 schools with middle of the pack grades who don't have jobs. As for networking, a good connection can get you a callback, but to actually get an offer, you gotta do it mostly on your own.

Maybe your market is over-saturated.  As I mentioned earlier, I went to MD (which was in the 30s or 40s at the time), and 99% of my class was employed within 6 months.  I know my entire friend-circle of ~30 was, and we didn't have phenomenal grades.  Personality is a huge draw as well.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 21, 2015, 03:21:47 PM
The market has bounced back compared to how it was in '08 and '09. But to say that "it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades" is super inaccurate. I know people at T-14 schools with middle of the pack grades who don't have jobs. As for networking, a good connection can get you a callback, but to actually get an offer, you gotta do it mostly on your own.
+ 180

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.  Why are you only focusing on biglaw?  The market has bounced back over the past few years and it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades and a good personality.  Networking is almost as important as grades.
Biglaw is where you make enough money to pay back a $150k/200k nut (with interest). I'm sure there are some people who have their parents pay for school, and some people who become personal injury lawyers who get a big case and settle for a big sum, but in general if you are below biglaw you are making about 70-90k max out of law school (with plenty stuck at the same $40k annual they could have gotten as an accountant), which after taxes and if you have kids etc is a rough burden. As i said, if you have a scholarship or are rich anyway, your considerations may be different.

Maybe your market is over-saturated.  As I mentioned earlier, I went to MD (which was in the 30s or 40s at the time), and 99% of my class was employed within 6 months.  I know my entire friend-circle of ~30 was, and we didn't have phenomenal grades.  Personality is a huge draw as well.
NY is oversaturated, and that is where the OP was originally considering. just to pry, what was your total debt after u graduated, and what was your incoming annual salary?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 03:31:58 PM
Maybe your market is over-saturated.  As I mentioned earlier, I went to MD (which was in the 30s or 40s at the time), and 99% of my class was employed within 6 months.  I know my entire friend-circle of ~30 was, and we didn't have phenomenal grades.  Personality is a huge draw as well.

When did you graduate? And anyone that has gone to law school knows that "99% employed" is an extremely misleading statement. Some law schools include non-law jobs in that stat, and all schools include low-level clerkships and law jobs that pay 50k (and almost none of us went to law school with the intention of working at these types of jobs) in that stat. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 21, 2015, 03:39:09 PM
Maybe it's time to merge this with the other law school thread.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 21, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
I can't see how removing your Yarmulkah is part of required hishtadlus...
The logic is simple - assuming it will increase your likelihood of earning money - which is objectively true in a place like Saudi Arabia, it becomes required hishtadlus unless considered assur/inappropriate.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 21, 2015, 03:44:47 PM
PlatinumGuy, u are the man.
Thanks, big compliment coming from you
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 21, 2015, 03:52:10 PM
I didn't shave this chol hamoed. I worked the first 2 days from home, and the last 2 days from the firm's offices in a different city.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 04:10:58 PM
NY is oversaturated, and that is where the OP was originally considering. just to pry, what was your total debt after u graduated, and what was your incoming annual salary?

I was fortunate to have no debt (parents, not scholarship). But my tuition was under 100k anyway (state school).  And suffice it to say, I did very well my first year out (graduated in 2012), but I got very lucky and I acknowledge it's not the norm. IMO, working during school to actually learn the legal profession is one of the most important things a law student can do.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 04:12:04 PM
I don't think you see the irony in your post.
You're thinking correctly because I indeed don't.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
When did you graduate? And anyone that has gone to law school knows that "99% employed" is an extremely misleading statement. Some law schools include non-law jobs in that stat, and all schools include low-level clerkships and law jobs that pay 50k (and almost none of us went to law school with the intention of working at these types of jobs) in that stat.

That's why I qualified my statement with the experience of my friends. All gainfully employed with full time legal jobs. However, there are only two schools in the state so a much better market.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 21, 2015, 05:11:59 PM
I was fortunate to have no debt (parents, not scholarship). But my tuition was under 100k anyway (state school).  And suffice it to say, I did very well my first year out (graduated in 2012), but I got very lucky and I acknowledge it's not the norm. IMO, working during school to actually learn the legal profession is one of the most important things a law student can do.
Thx for your honesty. you are very lucky (as was i BH and some other people I know). but there are plenty of people i know (jewish and not-jewish) who will always regret going to law school. so i waste my time to always try to make people (especially those considering going to a non-top-tier school in NY) think twice.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 05:41:38 PM
Thx for your honesty. you are very lucky (as was i BH and some other people I know). but there are plenty of people i know (jewish and not-jewish) who will always regret going to law school. so i waste my time to always try to make people (especially those considering going to a non-top-tier school in NY) think twice.

And that is fine.  I would advise someone against going to law school as well if they aspire solely to being a big firm attorney and can't get into a top school.  However, a law degree is one of the most universal masters out there, and I benefited tremendously from the experience, and I think others can too.  As long as they don't feel they need to be the next Harvey Specter.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 21, 2015, 06:40:01 PM
ha, actually had an awesome childhood BH :)
and i happen to always wear my yarmulke,
Shifra, you wear a yarlmuka???
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 21, 2015, 06:41:51 PM
It's indoors, they feel it's necessary for parnassah (definitely can't make a brachah/eat or drink though). IIRC there's a tshuva from Rav Moshe about it.
I saw an alarming number of people not wearing yarlmukas all day on interview days, eating, drinking, and I assume making brachos. Always wondered if they had a psak or just didn't care either way.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 21, 2015, 07:27:48 PM
And that is fine.  I would advise someone against going to law school as well if they aspire solely to being a big firm attorney and can't get into a top school.  However, a law degree is one of the most universal masters out there, and I benefited tremendously from the experience, and I think others can too.  As long as they don't feel they need to be the next Harvey Specter.
harvey spector isn't real. I'm the first, not the next
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 21, 2015, 07:55:30 PM
And that is fine.  I would advise someone against going to law school as well if they aspire solely to being a big firm attorney and can't get into a top school.  However, a law degree is one of the most universal masters out there, and I benefited tremendously from the experience, and I think others can too.  As long as they don't feel they need to be the next Harvey Specter.
Masters? It's a doctorate. Don't insult our profession.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 21, 2015, 07:55:40 PM
harvey spector isn't real. I'm the first, not the next
LOL
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 08:00:02 PM
I saw an alarming number of people not wearing yarlmukas all day on interview days, eating, drinking, and I assume making brachos. Always wondered if they had a psak or just didn't care either way.
You can't get a psak for making a bracha without a yarmulke except in the most extreme situations. I mean I guess you could but that's clearly a violation of Halacha.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 08:10:10 PM
Masters? It's a doctorate. Don't insult our profession.

My wife insisted on calling me "Doctor" after I graduated because she wants me to reciprocate when she gets her PhD.  Didn't last long.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 21, 2015, 08:12:50 PM
My wife insisted on calling me "Doctor" after I graduated because she wants me to reciprocate when she gets her PhD.  Didn't last long.
I would think your wife should call you "Master" regardless of your degree.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 10:03:48 PM
I would think your wife should call you "Master" regardless of your degree.

Someone didn't take con law  :o
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on April 21, 2015, 10:21:48 PM
Don't limit yourself. Get out of New York. Broaden your horizons. There are so many nice communities outside of the tri-state area. You will be a better Jew for it. If you go to Pitt, I will have you for your first shabbos.

Thank you so much for the offer!

are you single? if yes, go for it man

Yep.

All depends on your options in NY vs your options out of NY.  If your option in NY is Fordham, that may be different than if it was BLS. If your option oot is Penn, that may be different than if it was GW. Apply everywhere and come back when you get your results.

If you have decent lsat scores, I'd recommending asking some schools for fee waivers. Some might send you them on their own.

I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.

First take the LSAT see what you get and then worry about where to apply.

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

You're missing lots of info. Are you married? CAN you get into Columbia or not? If yes why go anywhere else (unless it's Harvard or something)?

I'm single. Don't know how my LSAT will be so can't comment on chances at Columbia. If I can get in then I would obviously want to attend; the question is what I should do if I don't.

Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake

Thankfully I have better things to do with my time than make up stories and post them on forums.


Thank you to everyone for your comments, especially those who directly responded to my questions with helpful suggestions/insight. If you guys have any more comments (and I'm assuming you do) I look forward to reading them.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 10:28:44 PM
I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.

Really not trying to sound like an elitist over here, but I don't think Fordham cuts it in this market. I know it's a better school than Cardozo, but from what I hear (and I know people in both schools), they're both similar in the sense that if you want to do biglaw, it's law review or bust.

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

You may already know this, but if you're taking the LSAT in October, you should make sure to apply for early decision at a school that may be a little bit of a reach for you based on your score. Also, just so you know, Penn has two early decision dates, so you can technically apply ED at one school in November (i.e. NYU or Columbia), and then if you don't get in, apply for the second round of ED at Penn which I think is in January.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 21, 2015, 11:24:27 PM
Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all?  :o

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 21, 2015, 11:44:38 PM
One more thing to keep in mind since shiframeir and AJK mention loads of debt, if you get a gov't job (which half the attorneys in Baltimore have), you're probably eligible for loan forgiveness after 10 years, and your payments are capped at a percentage of your salary during those initial 10 years.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 21, 2015, 11:49:24 PM
Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all?  :o

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.
Very good point-the interest really makes a tough situation a whole lot tougher.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 21, 2015, 11:49:31 PM
One more thing to keep in mind since shiframeir and AJK mention loads of debt, if you get a gov't job (which half the attorneys in Baltimore have), you're probably eligible for loan forgiveness after 10 years, and your payments are capped at a percentage of your salary during those initial 10 years.

I was going to mention that, and Baltimore is a distinct anomaly in this regard, but that sounds like prison to me. Being compelled to work in gov't for ten years just to pay off your loans seems criminal. (And, to be sure, it ain't such a simple task to find a job in gov't neitha.)

But, yes, if you had aspirations of working in gov't anyway, then this is a good option.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 21, 2015, 11:50:03 PM
Very good point-the interest really makes a tough situation a whole lot tougher.

Interest and taxes. Potentially the proverbial death knell.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 21, 2015, 11:50:35 PM
Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all?  :o

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.

Really well said. I'll just add as a data point that I just went through the OCI process back in August at a T-14 school and aside from the law review kids who absolutely killed 1L, most people that I know only received 1 offer, and a couple got 2 or 3. (I've heard about a fair share of people with 0 offers, but thankfully nobody that I know personally.) So like AJK said, even if you do go to a T-14 school, it's not like firms will be throwing offers at you left and right.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 21, 2015, 11:57:20 PM
I think it also gets lost in the shuffle the amount of work you do if you get the coveted biglaw job. You are working 60+ hour weeks for that $160K. That should be part of the decision as well.

Although if you're AJK,  it seems as if you don't need to work at all
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on April 22, 2015, 12:02:15 AM
I was going to mention that, and Baltimore is a distinct anomaly in this regard, but that sounds like prison to me. Being compelled to work in gov't for ten years just to pay off your loans seems criminal. (And, to be sure, it ain't such a simple task to find a job in gov't neitha.)

But, yes, if you had aspirations of working in gov't anyway, then this is a good option.

Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Super Speed on April 22, 2015, 12:08:03 AM
Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.
How does that work?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 22, 2015, 12:10:23 AM
Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.

Correct. Not for profit works, too.

Don't get me wrong, I know of plenty of people, mostly in Baltimore/Silver Spring/DC, who have pretty darn cushy gigs.

Six-figure, 9 to 5, pension-earning jobs.

Sure, it will take a few years to get to the six figure money, but there is plenty to be said for a 9-5 job (in addition to loan forgiveness) which allows you to eat dinner with the family and gives a person the opportunity to put his or her kids into bed every night.

Ergel as usual is not wrong in pointing out that it is the rule rather than the exception that these firms pay the type of money they do to entitled law school brats without a whit of legal knowledge because they expect slavery in return.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aj3042 on April 22, 2015, 12:31:35 AM
I think it also gets lost in the shuffle the amount of work you do if you get the coveted biglaw job. You are working 60+ hour weeks for that $160K. That should be part of the decision as well.

Although if you're AJK,  it seems as if you don't need to work at all
Definitely true.
As an aside, I see people keep writing biglaw as one word. I'm assuming that's slang because I'm pretty sure there's no such a word.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: TimT on April 22, 2015, 12:33:34 AM
Definitely true.
As an aside, I see people keep writing biglaw as one word. I'm assuming that's slang because I'm pretty sure there's no such a word.
Megafirms are called biglaw. Used in an informal way.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 12:39:01 AM
What I learned from this thread:

Only go to a T14 school. You will go 200k into debt but if you're lucky enough to get a biglaw job after that, you get to shave on chol hamoed and make brochos without a yarmulka.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 22, 2015, 01:56:03 AM

Thankfully I have better things to do with my time than make up stories and post them on forums.

Was just kidding around, much hatzlacha with whatever you decide, if you end up on the West Coast you're welcome to come over for a Shabbos meal :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 22, 2015, 02:23:07 AM
By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 07:59:24 AM


2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

This is  a very important point.  That debt is a real beast, even in biglaw.  I know a fellow in biglaw (with a few kids) who is eligible for, and was considering, income based repayment (which of course comes with its own ball and chain).

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 08:01:38 AM
What I learned from this thread:

Only go to a T14 school. You will go 200k into debt but if you're lucky enough to get a biglaw job after that, you get to shave on chol hamoed and make brochos without a yarmulka.

Don't forget shaking hands.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 08:05:38 AM

I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.


Fordham's employment rates in the past few years have not been terrific, even with their vaunted "NYC connections."  And in my anecdotal experience (is that a term?), they are not very accommodating to yeshiva guys financially, since they typically take almost all the yeshiva guys who missed out on Columbia/NYU.  I've known of people getting almost as much scholarship at an out of town T-14 as in Fordham.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 08:09:21 AM
Don't forget shaking hands.
Basically, all the popcorn threads.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 22, 2015, 09:28:25 AM
Basically, all the popcorn threads.
You mean you get to bash Chabad too? Where do I sign up? ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
You mean you get to bash Chabad too? Where do I sign up? ;D

Well, chabad is often a big part of going to a OOT law school, if you are single at least.  I used to eat at chabad on average once a shabbos, and on every other Monday nights when they had free chinese for us. 

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2015, 09:46:21 AM
Ergel as usual is not wrong
:-*
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 10:19:24 AM
By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.
Everyone can point to someone they know with a beard and long payis who made it in a big firm, but they are a small exception to the rule. I personally interviewed with a yarlmuka (not because of halacha but because I just felt too weird not wearing it) and always felt I walked in to the interview with 2 strikes. Sometimes it's anti-semitism, and sometimes it's because all the interviewer sees is early fridays and long holidays.

I also know a number of people who decided mid-process to remove their yarlmukas for interviews and immediately began to get offers.  Halachically/Hashkafically it's not a simple matter, but if you think wearing a yarlmuka doesn't affect your employment prospects, you are mistaken.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.

Like this one: http://www.srz.com/Shlomo_C_Twerski/
(http://www.srz.com/files/Professional/6cbdfc4f-283b-44b4-9305-5cd94a54fde4/Presentation/Photo/TwerskiS_web.jpg)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 10:26:32 AM
Everyone can point to someone they know with a beard and long payis who made it in a big firm, but they are a small exception to the rule. I personally interviewed with a yarlmuka (not because of halacha but because I just felt too weird not wearing it) and always felt I walked in to the interview with 2 strikes. Sometimes it's anti-semitism, and sometimes it's because all the interviewer sees is early fridays and long holidays.

I also know a number of people who decided mid-process to remove their yarlmukas for interviews and immediately began to get offers.  Halachically/Hashkafically it's not a simple matter, but if you think wearing a yarlmuka doesn't affect your employment prospects, you are mistaken.

They probably also reexamined their interviewing generally.  I have heard such stories, but they're hard to prove.  I've also seen yarmulke clad folks knocking it out of the park at interviews.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 10:37:29 AM
They probably also reexamined their interviewing generally.  I have heard such stories, but they're hard to prove.  I've also seen yarmulke clad folks knocking it out of the park at interviews.
Precisely. If they were only above-average they wouldn't have a shot.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 10:41:49 AM
Well, chabad is often a big part of going to a OOT law school, if you are single at least.  I used to eat at chabad on average once a shabbos, and on every other Monday nights when they had free chinese for us.
Serious question, Henche. Did your experience with Chabad expose you just to the friendly smiles and free food side of Chabad or to the actual chasidus that it's based on?

I ask because it makes sense that life in an OOT law school does bring many future lawyers into contact with shluchim and I am wondering how much this opportunity is being capitalized on.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 10:43:44 AM
Serious question, Henche. Did your experience with Chabad expose you just to the friendly smiles and free food side of Chabad or to the actual chasidus that it's based on?

I ask because it makes sense that life in an OOT law school does bring many future lawyers into contact with shluchim and I am wondering how much this opportunity is being capitalized on.
Capitalized??

Is the Chabad mission to spread Judaism or Chabad-style Chasidus?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 10:50:11 AM
Capitalized??

Is the Chabad mission to spread Judaism or Chabad-style Chasidus?

To a frum law student?!?! What should the shliach do? Put tefillin on him???
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 22, 2015, 10:51:43 AM
To a frum law student?!?! What should the shliach do? Put tefillin on him???
Many, probably would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 22, 2015, 10:57:22 AM

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

I'm single. Don't know how my LSAT will be so can't comment on chances at Columbia. If I can get in then I would obviously want to attend; the question is what I should do if I don't.
I strongly recommend trying to take the June LSAT (is that still possible)? study hard for a month and see what u can get. that gets u into the Columbia early decision at top of pile, and also gets you lots of fee waivers (assuming you do well) without asking for a bunch of schools (check the box to let people know your score if u think u will do well). IME (myself and friends), one of the biggest stats on your application is the date of receipt.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on April 22, 2015, 11:03:24 AM

Many, probably would be a good idea.

Are you saying they should put teffilin on them?
Idk about you but to me I see shabbos, kashurus and Davening three times a day as the definition of frum or not... You can't be frum and not putting on Teffilin every day... Unless you're a women and I don't want to go down that road today :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on April 22, 2015, 11:04:43 AM
Like this one: http://www.srz.com/Shlomo_C_Twerski/
(http://www.srz.com/files/Professional/6cbdfc4f-283b-44b4-9305-5cd94a54fde4/Presentation/Photo/TwerskiS_web.jpg)

Or these three:
http://www.cliffordchance.com/people_and_places/people/partners/us/avrohom_gelber.html
http://www.curtis.com/sitecontent.cfm?pageid=8&itemid=517
http://www.weil.com/people/chayim-neubort
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 22, 2015, 11:04:56 AM
To a frum law student?!?! What should the shliach do? Put tefillin on him???
Rabeinu Tam's? :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AsherO on April 22, 2015, 11:06:41 AM
Idk about you but to me I see shabbos, kashurus and Davening three times a day as the definition of frum or not...

Freddie - for one OOT law students need chizuk with those three, maintaining their frum identity on a secular campus can't be taken for granted.

Title: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on April 22, 2015, 11:08:36 AM
Freddie - for one OOT law students need chizuk with those three, maintaining their frum identity on a secular campus can't be taken for granted.

100% But putting on teffilin is already past Chizzuk, discussing teffilin isn' t however..
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on April 22, 2015, 11:09:04 AM

Rabeinu Tam's? :P

Wouldn't that be Chassidus :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 22, 2015, 11:09:17 AM
Or these three:
http://www.cliffordchance.com/people_and_places/people/partners/us/avrohom_gelber.html
http://www.curtis.com/sitecontent.cfm?pageid=8&itemid=517
http://www.weil.com/people/chayim-neubort
3/4 do tax law. Interesting.

I strongly recommend trying to take the June LSAT (is that still possible)? study hard for a month and see what u can get. that gets u into the Columbia early decision at top of pile, and also gets you lots of fee waivers (assuming you do well) without asking for a bunch of schools (check the box to let people know your score if u think u will do well). IME (myself and friends), one of the biggest stats on your application is the date of receipt.
+1

Also getting your test back is huge IMO. But if you aren't getting in the mid 160's before the test I'd bail...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 11:12:05 AM
Freddie - for one OOT law students need chizuk with those three, maintaining their frum identity on a secular campus can't be taken for granted.

Totally agreed, @AsherO. And one of the best ways to strengthen someone in their overall commitment to Yiddishkeit would be to learn some chasidus with the guy (or gal.) No, not to turn them into a Lubavitcher! But to give them something deep to sink their intellectual teeth into.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 11:15:52 AM
Are you saying they should put teffilin on them?
Idk about you but to me I see shabbos, kashurus and Davening three times a day as the definition of frum or not... You can't be frum and not putting on Teffilin every day... Unless you're a women and I don't want to go down that road today :P
You're obviously not Chabad.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 11:28:12 AM
Or these three:
http://www.cliffordchance.com/people_and_places/people/partners/us/avrohom_gelber.html
http://www.curtis.com/sitecontent.cfm?pageid=8&itemid=517
http://www.weil.com/people/chayim-neubort

tzad hasheveh shebahem is all tax lawyers.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Serious question, Henche. Did your experience with Chabad expose you just to the friendly smiles and free food side of Chabad or to the actual chasidus that it's based on?

I ask because it makes sense that life in an OOT law school does bring many future lawyers into contact with shluchim and I am wondering how much this opportunity is being capitalized on.

Honestly: my experience with campus chabad was 90% smiles, food, and a "real" davening.  Rabbi Zarchi speaks during the Friday night meal, but it's targeted at the entire crowd, so I didn't usually feel like I was getting a deeper chassidus than I was already familiar with--while I understand chabad generally has the most sophisticated chassidic thought (and this is in fact why they are much more different from litvaks than are other chassidim). 

At the same time, I can't say I sought out opportunities to learn more.  I was in Cambridge to go to law school, and I came to chabad for smiles, food, and davening.  There were other classes I could have attended, but I rathered study and go home.  I figured it was enough for myself that I made it to a weekly gemara shiur in the area (Rabbi Ganz--chofetz chaim guy).

Also at the same time, I imagine their priorities are rightly directed not at the bnei torah who learned in litvish yeshivos for 10 years post-high school before coming to law school...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 22, 2015, 11:43:12 AM
tzad hasheveh shebahem is all tax lawyers.
exactly. in a way its a circular concept, but i think they hire wierdos to do tax law bc usually geniuses do tax law (never sure why, but i dont :)), and if u look wierd and are still a lawyer, it is assumed by clients etc. that you must have a redeeming factor, being a genius :). one of the biggest compliments i ever got was from a senior tax partner saying i would have been a great tax lawyer. i think he meant i looked wierd and had bad social skills. (just kidding on all this)

Honestly: my experience with campus chabad was 90% smiles, food, and a "real" davening. 
Also at the same time, I imagine their priorities are rightly directed not at the bnei torah who learned in litvish yeshivos for 10 years post-high school before coming to law school...
exactly, though mine tried to give a tanya class that i just got totally lost in (and i think he learnt his lesson and stuck to dinners and lunch n learns with cool people).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 11:43:22 AM
Honestly: my experience with campus chabad was 90% smiles, food, and a "real" davening.  Rabbi Zarchi speaks during the Friday night meal, but it's targeted at the entire crowd, so I didn't usually feel like I was getting a deeper chassidus than I was already familiar with--while I understand chabad generally has the most sophisticated chassidic thought (and this is in fact why they are much more different from litvaks than are other chassidim). 

At the same time, I can't say I sought out opportunities to learn more.  I was in Cambridge to go to law school, and I came to chabad for smiles, food, and davening.  There were other classes I could have attended, but I rathered study and go home.  I figured it was enough for myself that I made it to a weekly gemara shiur in the area (Rabbi Ganz--chofetz chaim guy).

Also at the same time, I imagine their priorities are rightly directed not at the bnei torah who learned in litvish yeshivos for 10 years post-high school before coming to law school...

Wow! That was amazing. And probably the most serious post your ever wrote on this forum!  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 22, 2015, 11:47:21 AM
basically everyone is saying the same point

dont go to law school with dreams of getting the biglaw job
only go to law school if your in t-14 or get a hefty scholarship to a lower school
the job market is still bleak out there
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2015, 11:52:27 AM
basically everyone is saying the same point

dont go to law school with dreams of getting the biglaw job
only go to law school if your in t-14 or get a hefty scholarship to a lower school
the job market is still bleak out there
And don't forget
Ergel as usual is not wrong
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on April 22, 2015, 11:54:12 AM
http://www.kattenlaw.com/robert-loewy another tax
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 11:54:28 AM
tzad hasheveh shebahem is all tax lawyers.
This dude does bankruptcy: http://www.alston.com/professionals/leib-lerner/
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on April 22, 2015, 12:01:43 PM
tzad hasheveh shebahem is all tax lawyers.
-1:

One is in bankruptcy/restructuring.
Two out of them started at a white-shoe firm where the first shomer-shabbos partner also happened to be the first female elected to the partnership. (http://www.davispolk.com/lawyers/lydia-kess/). her story (https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/11/2012/striking-a-balance-work-family/) is a good read for any shomer shabbos (man or woman) contemplating big law.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on April 22, 2015, 12:04:26 PM
http://wlrk.com/MAKoenig/
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on April 22, 2015, 12:15:18 PM

You're obviously not Chabad.

I actually am.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 12:16:15 PM
basically everyone is saying the same point

dont go to law school with dreams of getting the biglaw job
only go to law school if your in t-14 or get a hefty scholarship to a lower school
the job market is still bleak out there
The point which really underlies the whole law school discussion is this: Yeshiva students generally are smart and have a decent work ethic, but are poorly educated and are not trained in any vocation. Law school may be the only way to get a decent paying job with a lot of upside potential with only a small amount of time investment.

The discussion presents all the reasons not to go to law school, but the question remains: What is the alternative?

I think law school is good option, so long as you know what it is and what it's not. My OCI year was one of the two worst years for the legal job market. Only a small handful got biglaw offers. Even law review did not guaranty an offer. But now, a few years out, I and most of my friends have landed on our feet, with good paying jobs plus a family life. Student loans are rough but not crippling. Most of us don't regret going to law school. Ironically, the most disgruntled of the lot are those in biglaw. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 01:09:14 PM
http://www.kattenlaw.com/robert-loewy another tax

Meh, trimmed beard.  Even nonfrum lawyers can have a trimmed beard.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 01:12:09 PM
Wow! That was amazing. And probably the most serious post your ever wrote on this forum!  :)

Many of my posts are serious.  Just in some the point is less transparent than others.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 22, 2015, 01:16:58 PM
Many of my posts are serious.  Just in some the point is less transparent than others.
I'm not claiming you don't often have a serious point. Good humor usually does.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 22, 2015, 05:04:23 PM
Mildly related to prior discussion on yarmulkes (the r hirsch story is very interesting) http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%204%20Rabinowitz.pdf
I always wear, but mostly to cover my thinning hair.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 06:59:50 PM
Also mildly related.  Going to law school now is not as bad an idea as it was a couple years ago.  Applications are way down in the upper band, which means it is easier than it used to be to get into a good school. 

For yeshiva guys, it also means their high numbers are in strong demand, which could likely mean more admissions to Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

At the same time, firm hiring is up from a couple years ago, as is compensation.  Although 160 is still the gold standard, first year bonuses have gone from 7500 in the recession, to 10k in 2013, to 15k in 2014.  A second year associate who earned 184k in 2012, earned 195k in 2014, and the changes are more pronounced as you get more senior.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 07:08:38 PM

Also mildly related.  Going to law school now is not as bad an idea as it was a couple years ago.

That is true. I know my class did substantially better at OCI than the previous year did.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 08:46:48 PM
That is true. I know my class did substantially better at OCI than the previous year did.

How do you know?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 08:52:41 PM
How do you know?
The schools keep track
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 08:59:02 PM
The schools keep track

That and just from speaking to people from the year above me and to people from my year.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 09:11:35 PM
That and just from speaking to people from the year above me and to people from my year.

They release the percentage of people that got jobs through OCI and the year before stats to current students? I've never heard of that. I'm sure they keep track but I doubt they just release it.

"Speaking to people" is far from a large enough sample to be considered "knowing" that your year did much better than the previous year.

So again I ask, how do you know?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 09:16:58 PM
They release the percentage of people that got jobs through OCI and the year before stats to current students? I've never heard of that. I'm sure they keep track but I doubt they just release it.



They gave us previous years stats in my school. Right down to how many callbacks/offers at each firm. 

I got a little overconfident at one callback because we'd converted something like 15/16 the year before at that firm. Rejected.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 09:25:00 PM
They gave us previous years stats in my school. Right down to how many callbacks/offers at each firm. 

I got a little overconfident at one callback because we'd converted something like 15/16 the year before at that firm. Rejected.

Of course my school as well gave stats for each firm. How many offers, even what the grade distribution was. But they never said the overall percentage of those that got jobs the previous year. The firm stats were actually a combination of the past 2 or 3 years.

Point being, until graduation stats come out it's impossible to "know" that your year kicked the prior years butt. It's stam hock.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 09:42:22 PM
Of course my school as well gave stats for each firm. How many offers, even what the grade distribution was. But they never said the overall percentage of those that got jobs the previous year. The firm stats were actually a combination of the past 2 or 3 years.

Point being, until graduation stats come out it's impossible to "know" that your year kicked the prior years butt. It's stam hock.

No, they gave us the precise number of students from the previous year who were employed by Amlaw 200 (and I think also separately Amlaw 100) firms.  They told us right before OCI, so we'd be confident in interviews.  If your school isn't telling you, its because it won't make you confident...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 09:49:45 PM
No, they gave us the precise number of students from the previous year who were employed by Amlaw 200 (and I think also separately Amlaw 100) firms.  They told us right before OCI, so we'd be confident in interviews.  If your school isn't telling you, its because it won't make you confident...

Of the graduating class? Or the then rising 3ls? Anyway CS91 was claiming his year did better at OCI, which is a whole diffrent ballgame as there are lots of folks that find jobs through the year.

Without getting too specific, my school is in the top half of the T-14 & their numbers are just fine.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 09:55:42 PM
Of the graduating class? Or the then rising 3ls? Anyway CS91 was claiming his year did better at OCI, which is a whole diffrent ballgame as there are lots of folks that find jobs through the year.

Without getting too specific, my school is in the top half of the T-14 & their numbers are just fine.

My school gives out stats as well of the year right before us. As for speaking to people not being a good enough sample, I spoke to almost everyone who was in my section during 1L and almost all of them had jobs out of OCI. I personally think that a whole section is a good sample because within a section, you have people with all the different possible grade combinations.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 10:01:56 PM


Without getting too specific, my school is in the top half of the T-14 & their numbers are just fine.
So... Penn?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 10:04:18 PM
So... Penn?

Why specifically Penn? Could be Penn, UChicago, NYU, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, or Yale.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 22, 2015, 10:04:57 PM
Why specifically Penn? Could be Penn, UChicago, NYU, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, or Yale.
Just a guess
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 10:10:41 PM
My school gives out stats as well of the year right before us. As for speaking to people not being a good enough sample, I spoke to almost everyone who was in my section during 1L and almost all of them had jobs out of OCI. I personally think that a whole section is a good sample because within a section, you have people with all the different possible grade combinations.

Your school tells you percentage of people that got jobs out of last year's OCI? They give that precise stat? i find that hard to believe. Maybe my school is an anomaly, they gave plenty of stats but not that one.

You honestly asked everyone in their section if they had jobs? Uy.
Now lets break this down a little further, almost all had jobs - so what percentage is that. 96%? and the year above you? Did you interview a whole section of the year above you too?

Now I don't know if your 3l or a 21 I would guess 21 because it sounds like you have the overconfidence of someone who got a job through OCI (congrats) but haven't yet actually experienced  (whether summer or otherwise) what the bottom rung of biglaw is to bring you down to earth. I also believe you mentioned further upthread that you go to a t-14

So were talking the class of 2015 & 2016. Luckily I'm in the class of 2015 and also at a t-14. According to the career office at my school, the year 2015 & 2016 were extremely similar when it came to OCI. Maybe a couple of bumps to one or the other but nothing unexpected, definitely nothing drastic like the year 2016 did much better then 2015 not even close.

So unless your school's class of 2015 is comprised of a bunch of idiots (hard to believe, but who knows) I'm going to assume most schools do along the same path.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 10:11:54 PM
So... Penn?

Don't insult me  ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 10:14:09 PM
Don't insult me  ;)

There may be some Penn students/alum on this thread. Gotta be careful ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: I Chuckle on April 22, 2015, 10:15:22 PM
There may be some Penn students/alum on this thread. Gotta be careful ;)

 I jest
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 22, 2015, 10:38:55 PM
Now I don't know if your 3l or a 21 I would guess 21 because it sounds like you have the overconfidence of someone who got a job through OCI (congrats) but haven't yet actually experienced  (whether summer or otherwise) what the bottom rung of biglaw is to bring you down to earth. I also believe you mentioned further upthread that you go to a t-14

Don't get me wrong; I've tried. Yet, for the life of me, I cannot discern what you're trying to imply here.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 22, 2015, 11:16:07 PM
Your school tells you percentage of people that got jobs out of last year's OCI? They give that precise stat? i find that hard to believe. Maybe my school is an anomaly, they gave plenty of stats but not that one.

You honestly asked everyone in their section if they had jobs? Uy.
Now lets break this down a little further, almost all had jobs - so what percentage is that. 96%? and the year above you? Did you interview a whole section of the year above you too?

Now I don't know if your 3l or a 21 I would guess 21 because it sounds like you have the overconfidence of someone who got a job through OCI (congrats) but haven't yet actually experienced  (whether summer or otherwise) what the bottom rung of biglaw is to bring you down to earth. I also believe you mentioned further upthread that you go to a t-14

So were talking the class of 2015 & 2016. Luckily I'm in the class of 2015 and also at a t-14. According to the career office at my school, the year 2015 & 2016 were extremely similar when it came to OCI. Maybe a couple of bumps to one or the other but nothing unexpected, definitely nothing drastic like the year 2016 did much better then 2015 not even close.

So unless your school's class of 2015 is comprised of a bunch of idiots (hard to believe, but who knows) I'm going to assume most schools do along the same path.

Would be pretty funny if we go to the same school. Care to introduce yourself over PM?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 11:24:05 PM
Don't get me wrong; I've tried. Yet, for the life of me, I cannot discern what you're trying to imply here.

Clearly you're from the bottom rung of biglaw then.  Why don't you post your beard and peyos firm bio picture and we'll vote.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2015, 11:34:00 PM
Also mildly related.  Going to law school now is not as bad an idea as it was a couple years ago.  Applications are way down in the upper band, which means it is easier than it used to be to get into a good school. 

For yeshiva guys, it also means their high numbers are in strong demand, which could likely mean more admissions to Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

At the same time, firm hiring is up from a couple years ago, as is compensation.  Although 160 is still the gold standard, first year bonuses have gone from 7500 in the recession, to 10k in 2013, to 15k in 2014.  A second year associate who earned 184k in 2012, earned 195k in 2014, and the changes are more pronounced as you get more senior.
every time I see those numbers,  I for a second regret not going to law school
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 22, 2015, 11:48:51 PM
every time I see those numbers,  I for a second regret not going to law school

Don't.  Subtract our the debt. Then adjust for the fact that most lawyers leave biglaw before they can even pay off that debt.

At the same time, I got a kickstart on a career track that I likely would not have gotten anywhere else.  I view the first few years at a firm as an overpaid residency.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 22, 2015, 11:53:03 PM
Don't.  Subtract our the debt. Then adjust for the fact that most lawyers leave biglaw before they can even pay off that debt.

At the same time, I got a kickstart on a career track that I likely would not have gotten anywhere else.  I view the first few years at a firm as an overpaid residency.
I wouldn't have had any debt.
Ended up in a career that is much more stable and much less demanding,  but definitely without the economic upside (unless you're the one in a million who become a billionaire)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 23, 2015, 08:20:28 AM
I wouldn't have had any debt.
Ended up in a career that is much more stable and much less demanding,  but definitely without the economic upside (unless you're the one in a million who become a billionaire)

Because someone would have paid? So then add that money back in.

Or because you would have taken the scholarship at a lesser school? You would have been gambling hard on perhaps not getting that biglaw job. (Unless you're one of the genius overachievers who extracts a full scholarship from like Columbia or Chicago).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 23, 2015, 10:33:28 AM
Because someone would have paid? So then add that money back in.

Or because you would have taken the scholarship at a lesser school? You would have been gambling hard on perhaps not getting that biglaw job. (Unless you're one of the genius overachievers who extracts a full scholarship from like Columbia or Chicago).
The former. I spent a third of it going to grad school anyways (although school was 2-3 hours a week and I did very little work vs. dedicating three years to school).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 23, 2015, 02:03:20 PM
I think we should do a DDF ATTY DO.  Could be interesting to see the makeup.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 23, 2015, 02:31:36 PM
I try to hang out with non-lawyers on my free time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: 12HRS on April 23, 2015, 03:00:23 PM
I try to hang out with non-lawyers on my free time.

I'm sure if its with other lawyers you can find a way to bill for it. then it doesn't have to be free time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 23, 2015, 03:18:11 PM
I'm sure if its with other lawyers you can find a way to bill for it. then it doesn't have to be free time.
ALOL. I guess a good lawyer's time is never free.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on April 23, 2015, 03:30:26 PM
I think we should do a DDF ATTY DO.  Could be interesting to see the makeup.

NY County Supreme?  :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2015, 03:41:04 PM
NY County Supreme?  :P

Was in Kings Supreme twice in as many days. Yuck.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 03:51:12 PM
Was in Kings Supreme twice in as many days. Yuck.
Jury duty? ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 23, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
i think Dan should give a cle seminar
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 03:56:37 PM
i think Dan should give a cle seminar
He already did that on 11/9/13.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 23, 2015, 04:00:41 PM
He already did that on 11/9/13.

I think that mercaz1 meant CLE as in Continuing Legal Education, not Cleveland.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 04:04:57 PM
I think that mercaz1 meant CLE as in Continuing Legal Education, not Cleveland.
On DDF cle will always mean Cleveland!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 23, 2015, 04:07:19 PM
yes i meant a continuing legal course
he can do it on whether its allowed to be paid by a client in miles or points and we can get an ethics credit
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 23, 2015, 04:09:52 PM
yes i meant a continuing legal course
he can do it on whether its allowed to be paid by a client in miles or points and we can get an ethics credit

May be a UPL issue  :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 23, 2015, 04:11:23 PM
MA doesn't require CLEs.  NY stinks.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on April 23, 2015, 04:13:08 PM
MA doesn't require CLEs.  NY stinks.

NY is not as bad as NJ
i hate needing to do live lectures
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2015, 04:14:23 PM
Jury duty? ;D

Emergency Order to Show Cause.

NY is not as bad as NJ
i hate needing to do live lectures

Don't think it needs be live except for first year or two, CMIIW.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 04:16:21 PM
Emergency Order to Show Cause.

Don't think it needs be live except for first year or two, CMIIW.
NJ requires half the credits to be live.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 23, 2015, 04:19:03 PM
There are Jewish CLEs. I've watched many online. Pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 04:22:51 PM
There are Jewish CLEs. I've watched many online. Pretty interesting.
But do you have to wear a yarmulke when you watch it? ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 23, 2015, 04:25:58 PM
MA doesn't require CLEs.  NY stinks.

Neither does MD since the company that used to handle the courses went out of business.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 23, 2015, 04:27:23 PM
But do you have to wear a yarmulke when you watch it? ;)

If you do, you only get credit for half the time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 23, 2015, 05:06:05 PM
There are Jewish CLEs. I've watched many online. Pretty interesting.
If they're anything like the Jewish defensive driving courses sign me up. VHMY
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 23, 2015, 05:12:47 PM
If they're anything like the Jewish defensive driving courses sign me up. VHMY
Free slice of pizza? ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 23, 2015, 05:43:16 PM
NJ requires half the credits to be live.

Every year? Forever? Ugh.

Seems I need to do more then.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 23, 2015, 05:47:55 PM
Every year? Forever? Ugh.

Seems I need to do more then.
Join the club.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 23, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
Madison Title has shiurim that qualify from time to time, don't they?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on April 23, 2015, 06:32:46 PM
Really not trying to sound like an elitist over here, but I don't think Fordham cuts it in this market. I know it's a better school than Cardozo, but from what I hear (and I know people in both schools), they're both similar in the sense that if you want to do biglaw, it's law review or bust.

You may already know this, but if you're taking the LSAT in October, you should make sure to apply for early decision at a school that may be a little bit of a reach for you based on your score. Also, just so you know, Penn has two early decision dates, so you can technically apply ED at one school in November (i.e. NYU or Columbia), and then if you don't get in, apply for the second round of ED at Penn which I think is in January.

Don't really like the idea of committing to a school before hearing offers from other schools.

Was just kidding around, much hatzlacha with whatever you decide, if you end up on the West Coast you're welcome to come over for a Shabbos meal :)

Appreciate the offer!

I strongly recommend trying to take the June LSAT (is that still possible)? study hard for a month and see what u can get. that gets u into the Columbia early decision at top of pile, and also gets you lots of fee waivers (assuming you do well) without asking for a bunch of schools (check the box to let people know your score if u think u will do well). IME (myself and friends), one of the biggest stats on your application is the date of receipt.

Haven't started studying for the LSAT yet, and I won't have much time to do so over the next few weeks so the June LSAT is unfortunately not much of an option. It is regrettable since from what I understand applying early can result in a significant boost.

Also mildly related.  Going to law school now is not as bad an idea as it was a couple years ago.  Applications are way down in the upper band, which means it is easier than it used to be to get into a good school. 

For yeshiva guys, it also means their high numbers are in strong demand, which could likely mean more admissions to Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

At the same time, firm hiring is up from a couple years ago, as is compensation.  Although 160 is still the gold standard, first year bonuses have gone from 7500 in the recession, to 10k in 2013, to 15k in 2014.  A second year associate who earned 184k in 2012, earned 195k in 2014, and the changes are more pronounced as you get more senior.

That's great to hear!

That is true. I know my class did substantially better at OCI than the previous year did.

As is this.

Thanks again for the comments.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on April 23, 2015, 07:07:29 PM
Every year? Forever? Ugh.

Seems I need to do more then.

Every two years. I find it easy enough to accumulate 12 live hours over that time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on April 23, 2015, 07:12:00 PM
Incidentally, does anyone know if it's practical and worthwhile to become administratively ineligible to practice in NJ for a bunch of years to save on the licensing fee? I don't practice in NJ (and have no plans to do so in the future) but I don't want to give the license up permanently.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on April 23, 2015, 09:33:08 PM
this guy is so full of it
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: casualchurner on April 23, 2015, 11:38:19 PM
I'm starting law school in the fall and was looking to buy some sort of bag/briefcase for school. Seems like there are lots of lawyers here. Can anyone suggest something good from past experience? How much is a typical 1L carrying every day to school?
TIA
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 23, 2015, 11:39:48 PM
I'm starting law school in the fall and was looking to buy some sort of bag/briefcase for school. Seems like there are lots of lawyers here. Can anyone suggest something good from past experience? How much is a typical 1L carrying every day to school?
TIA
Should fit a laptop and 2 casebooks ime.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: casualchurner on April 23, 2015, 11:44:39 PM
Should fit a laptop and 2 casebooks ime.
How large are these casebooks?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 23, 2015, 11:59:10 PM
How large are these casebooks?

Big and heavy.  Go for a backpack.  Switch to a messenger bag for 2L if desired.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: casualchurner on April 24, 2015, 07:52:41 AM
Big and heavy.  Go for a backpack.  Switch to a messenger bag for 2L if desired.
Got it. Thanks!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 24, 2015, 08:09:20 AM
Big and heavy.  Go for a backpack.  Switch to a messenger bag for 2L if desired.

Definitely a backpack with a laptop sleeve. 

In 1L, I used a very slim backpack that only fit a laptop and like 1 book which was very comfortable.  I didn't need to take books home, since I did all my work in school and kept my books in my locker (which I also visited between classes).  In 2L and 3L, I used a larger backpack.

PS. I take a backpack to work now also.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 12:20:55 PM
Definitely a backpack with a laptop sleeve. 

In 1L, I used a very slim backpack that only fit a laptop and like 1 book which was very comfortable.  I didn't need to take books home, since I did all my work in school and kept my books in my locker (which I also visited between classes).  In 2L and 3L, I used a larger backpack.

PS. I take a backpack to work now also.

Oy, what a look. A man in a business suit wearing a Jansport. Makes me shudder. Do you also wear a baseball cap? I'll buy you an attache case for your birthday.  :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on April 24, 2015, 12:28:37 PM
Oy, what a look. A man in a business suit wearing a Jansport. Makes me shudder. Do you also wear a baseball cap? I'll buy you an attache case for your birthday.  :P

It is actually very common these days for professionals to have a backpack
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 12:29:37 PM
It is actually very common these days for professionals to have a backpack
And if all your friends jumped off a bridge...!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on April 24, 2015, 12:41:32 PM
PS. I take a backpack to work now also.

I used to do that for the first several months until I realized:

Oy, what a look. A man in a business suit wearing a Jansport. Makes me shudder.

It just doesn't "shtim."
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 12:43:21 PM
I used to do that for the first several months until I realized:

It just doesn't "shtim."

THANK YOU!

Now, if you really want to get the willies, have you ever seen a guy with a kapota and a back pack?  :-\
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 24, 2015, 12:53:12 PM
It is actually very common these days for professionals to have a backpack

It's common, but not a regular backpack that a young kid would take to work. More of the high end backpacks (which I still don't get).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 12:59:02 PM
It's common, but not a regular backpack that a young kid would take to work. More of the high end backpacks (which I still don't get).

High end backpack. You can buy a $250 pair of Jordans. You still look like an utter rube wearing them with a pinstripe suit.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 24, 2015, 01:04:38 PM
High end backpack. You can buy a $250 pair of Jordans. You still look like an utter rube wearing them with a pinstripe suit.

I agree. Which is why I said that I don't get it. Just said that those are the backpacks that are common.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 24, 2015, 01:48:58 PM
THANK YOU!

Now, if you really want to get the willies, have you ever seen a guy with a kapota and a back pack?  :-\
On a vespa  :D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 01:57:33 PM
On a vespa  :D
LOL!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 24, 2015, 03:13:30 PM
High end backpack.
like this? (http://www.tumi.com/p/bryant-leather-backpack-068980DNTS?subcat=true)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 03:34:23 PM
It's common, but not a regular backpack that a young kid would take to work. More of the high end backpacks (which I still don't get).

like this? (http://www.tumi.com/p/bryant-leather-backpack-068980DNTS?subcat=true)

It might as well have Hello Kitty on it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 24, 2015, 03:40:01 PM
like this? (http://www.tumi.com/p/bryant-leather-backpack-068980DNTS?subcat=true)

I think he means something more subtle.  Like this (http://us.louisvuitton.com/eng-us/products/backpack-arsene-cuir-taurillon-008805).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 24, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
I think he means something more subtle.  Like this (http://us.louisvuitton.com/eng-us/products/backpack-arsene-cuir-taurillon-008805).

Ya. That's one way to blow a signing bonus. Ludicrous.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 24, 2015, 05:12:43 PM
High end backpack.

(http://contents.louisvuitton.com/is/image/lv/1/PP_VP_M/louis-vuitton-runner-damier-ebene-canvas-men-s-bags--N41377_PM2_Front%20view.jpg?wid=1000&hei=1000)

If you want to shim with the nouveau rich Chinese
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 24, 2015, 05:22:08 PM
Oy, what a look. A man in a business suit wearing a Jansport. Makes me shudder. Do you also wear a baseball cap? I'll buy you an attache case for your birthday.  :P

Business suit? This is BOS, baby.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 05:44:25 PM
Business suit? This is BOS, baby.
Exactly, BOS not LAX. What do you wear? Khakis and a Hawaiian shirt?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 24, 2015, 05:56:47 PM
Exactly, BOS not LAX. What do you wear? Khakis and a Hawaiian shirt?
You should see what lax lawyers wear.  I've never seen a tie outside of a courtroom
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 24, 2015, 06:47:44 PM
You should see what lax lawyers wear.  I've never seen a tie outside of a courtroom
Exactly, BOS not LAX. What do you wear? Khakis and a Hawaiian shirt?

I wear dress slacks and a dress shirt. Yes, some tax lawyers wear khakis. And some wear odd stuff.

I've been to court all of once, and most have not at all. I wore a suit, and did not say hello to the other frum lawyers because it was in NY.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 24, 2015, 06:51:04 PM
I wear dress slacks and a dress shirt. Yes, some tax lawyers wear khakis. And some wear odd stuff.

I've been to court all of once, and most have not at all. I wore a suit, and did not say hello to the other frum lawyers because it was in NY.
LOL
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on April 24, 2015, 06:57:29 PM
this guy is so full of it

Says the person arrogant and simplistic enough to judge a person based on a couple of posts requesting information on a forum. Perhaps a trip to the mirror is due if you're interested in seeing a person who acts like they are "full of it."
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on April 24, 2015, 07:05:44 PM
this guy is so full of it

Who are you referring to
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 24, 2015, 07:47:16 PM
I wear dress slacks and a dress shirt. Yes, some tax lawyers wear khakis. And some wear odd stuff.

I've been to court all of once, and most have not at all. I wore a suit, and did not say hello to the other frum lawyers because it was in NY.

Ummm, I just want to point out that all this makes it even more remarkable that someone would ever feel uncomfortable looking frum. Shabbos is coming. Gotta go!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on April 26, 2015, 02:08:20 PM
Who are you referring to


Ah wrong thread
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 27, 2015, 03:27:03 PM
Haven't started studying for the LSAT yet, and I won't have much time to do so over the next few weeks so the June LSAT is unfortunately not much of an option. It is regrettable since from what I understand applying early can result in a significant boost.
Would you consider working for a year, perhaps to see how lawyering is? Esp if you went to a decent undergrad and/or got good grades, maybe consider being a paralegal for a bit and set it up so you can apply for law school early next year? IME, applying early could be worth about 4 points on the LSAT (of course so many variables and just one example, but I got in with i think a 170 and Israeli BTL for columbia b/c i was on top of the pile, while a friend with a 174 didnt get in applying after their early D). and i saved lots of money on applications.

I wear dress slacks and a dress shirt. Yes, some tax lawyers wear khakis. And some wear odd stuff. 
In my NY office, I dress like a paralegal (and worse then some of them), old relaxed khakis with bright cotton button down shirts that are wrinkly. get a comment every once in a while, but as long as the work is good and i wear a suit for clients, no one cares.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 27, 2015, 03:28:16 PM
MODS, can you merger this with the old law school thread? Seems strange to have this convo separate from the general thread.

Is anyone here an M&A lawyer?
Do you know of a real frum M&A Partner (not real estate) at a big firm? that is the one practice i have never seen a frum guy succeed in.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 27, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
Is anyone here an M&A lawyer?
Do you know of a real frum M&A Partner (not real estate) at a big firm? that is the one practice i have never seen a frum guy succeed in.

I've heard that the lack of frum attorneys in M&A is due to most M&A deals (involving public companies) go down over the weekend, so it makes it difficult for a frum attorney to be involved. Just what I've heard, not talking from first-hand knowledge...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on April 27, 2015, 04:08:30 PM
MODS, can you merger this with the old law school thread? Seems strange to have this convo separate from the general thread.

Is anyone here an M&A lawyer?
Do you know of a real frum M&A Partner (not real estate) at a big firm? that is the one practice i have never seen a frum guy succeed in.
My FIL does M&A, although he does not work for a law firm anymore (he's a partner at a big 4 accounting firm)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 27, 2015, 04:09:46 PM
I've heard that the lack of frum attorneys in M&A is due to most M&A deals (involving public companies) go down over the weekend, so it makes it difficult for a frum attorney to be involved. Just what I've heard, not talking from first-hand knowledge...

This is correct.  I do M&A from the tax side, and even that I've considered shabbos as a reason to focus on other sorts of transactions. 

(Although, the issue is not that most deals go down over the weekend, but that any deal CAN.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 27, 2015, 04:29:18 PM
This is correct.  I do M&A from the tax side, and even that I've considered shabbos as a reason to focus on other sorts of transactions. 

(Although, the issue is not that most deals go down over the weekend, but that any deal CAN.

Oh, I thought that public companies specifically want their deals to go down over the weekend because if it happens during the week, the stock price can go a little fugazi.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 27, 2015, 04:48:41 PM
Oh, I thought that public companies specifically want their deals to go down over the weekend because if it happens during the week, the stock price can go a little fugazi.
can address that with just an after hours announcement (most exchanges require that anyway).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 27, 2015, 09:07:22 PM
Oh, I thought that public companies specifically want their deals to go down over the weekend because if it happens during the week, the stock price can go a little fugazi.

Maybe; I wasn't aware of that.  In all events, there's plenty of M&A that isn't public company work.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 27, 2015, 10:15:48 PM
Maybe; I wasn't aware of that.  In all events, there's plenty of M&A that isn't public company work.

M&A, like when mods merge a thread?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on April 28, 2015, 12:49:55 AM
M&A, like when mods merge a thread?
that would be more like a hostile takeover :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on April 29, 2015, 04:12:21 PM
Would you consider working for a year, perhaps to see how lawyering is? Esp if you went to a decent undergrad and/or got good grades, maybe consider being a paralegal for a bit and set it up so you can apply for law school early next year? IME, applying early could be worth about 4 points on the LSAT (of course so many variables and just one example, but I got in with i think a 170 and Israeli BTL for columbia b/c i was on top of the pile, while a friend with a 174 didnt get in applying after their early D). and i saved lots of money on applications.
In my NY office, I dress like a paralegal (and worse then some of them), old relaxed khakis with bright cotton button down shirts that are wrinkly. get a comment every once in a while, but as long as the work is good and i wear a suit for clients, no one cares.

I was considering taking a year off between undergrad and law school, especially because if not I would be a couple of years younger than the average student enrolling at law school. However, I'm not sure that I would be able to find a job, as my undergrad major does not really lead to a job without more advanced schooling.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 29, 2015, 04:52:52 PM
I was considering taking a year off between undergrad and law school, especially because if not I would be a couple of years younger than the average student enrolling at law school. However, I'm not sure that I would be able to find a job, as my undergrad major does not really lead to a job without more advanced schooling.
if u think u cant get a paralegal job (which is usually terrible anyway), maybe try to get an executive assistant job? I know there are tons of those available on internet and even frum positions through OU jobs, and that experience should help u in any type of job as long as the exec u work for isnt a shmuck, and the contacts and relationships you make may be very valuable down the road.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: raphy781 on April 29, 2015, 04:56:27 PM
Because all the lawyes are here (and due to the lack of a better place to post this). Anyone here in corporate law? I have a quick question.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 29, 2015, 05:09:01 PM
Because all the lawyes are here (and due to the lack of a better place to post this). Anyone here in corporate law? I have a quick question.

tax
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 29, 2015, 05:27:35 PM
Because all the lawyes are here (and due to the lack of a better place to post this). Anyone here in corporate law? I have a quick question.
I'm in corporate. whats up?
Note i am not your lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and dont disclose any confidential information to me. If i give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on my experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, i have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on April 29, 2015, 05:29:55 PM
I'm in corporate. whats up?
Note i am not your lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and dont disclose any confidential information to me. If i give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on my experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, i have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
Screenshot taken. ;)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on April 29, 2015, 05:33:25 PM
Screenshot taken. ;)
Doh!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on April 29, 2015, 05:43:29 PM
I was considering taking a year off between undergrad and law school, especially because if not I would be a couple of years younger than the average student enrolling at law school. However, I'm not sure that I would be able to find a job, as my undergrad major does not really lead to a job without more advanced schooling.

Don't take a year off just because of age.  I was 21, and there were a handful younger than me.  My mother began law school at 19, and my aunt at 17.  (My aunt was too young and never really had a real legal career.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: raphy781 on April 29, 2015, 05:44:01 PM
I'm in corporate. whats up?
Note i am not your lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and dont disclose any confidential information to me. If i give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on my experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, i have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
Pm sent.
Note you are not my lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and I won't disclose any confidential information to you. I understand that if you give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on your experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, I have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2015, 05:45:17 PM
I'm in corporate. whats up?
Note i am not your lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and dont disclose any confidential information to me. If i give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on my experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, i have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
But will you bill him? :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 29, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
Don't take a year off just because of age.

+1

I was 22 when I started and I am one of the younger ones in my class. It is true that law schools like seeing people with work experience post-undergrad, but if you do well enough on the LSATs, it shouldn't make a difference.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on April 29, 2015, 06:41:41 PM
Because all the lawyes are here (and due to the lack of a better place to post this). Anyone here in corporate law? I have a quick question.
I'm in corporate (acquisition and investment grade finance and equity derivatives)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 29, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
I'm in corporate (acquisition and investment grade finance and equity derivatives)

Why not tax?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on April 29, 2015, 08:29:54 PM
Why not tax?
never developed a taste for it, maybe in another career.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Menachem613 on April 29, 2015, 09:11:00 PM

never developed a taste for it, maybe in another career.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 29, 2015, 09:15:42 PM


What do you do?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on April 29, 2015, 09:42:44 PM
if u think u cant get a paralegal job (which is usually terrible anyway), maybe try to get an executive assistant job? I know there are tons of those available on internet and even frum positions through OU jobs, and that experience should help u in any type of job as long as the exec u work for isnt a shmuck, and the contacts and relationships you make may be very valuable down the road.

Paralegal work seems like it could be a good idea. Is there any specific training necessary to become one? How would I go about finding a job?

Don't take a year off just because of age.  I was 21, and there were a handful younger than me.  My mother began law school at 19, and my aunt at 17.  (My aunt was too young and never really had a real legal career.)

I don't know. I imagine it would be somewhat weird to be 21 in a class where the average age is 24/25 with some much older.

+1

I was 22 when I started and I am one of the younger ones in my class. It is true that law schools like seeing people with work experience post-undergrad, but if you do well enough on the LSATs, it shouldn't make a difference.

I also think I would likely benefit  from being a year older/more experienced.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: 12HRS on April 29, 2015, 09:45:38 PM
I'm surprised none of the lawyers are filing motions to change this thread title
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on April 29, 2015, 09:47:04 PM
I don't think a 21 year old would be out of place in law school. Most students come straight from undergrad.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Menachem613 on April 29, 2015, 09:58:40 PM

What do you do?

Tax.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 29, 2015, 09:59:07 PM
Tax.

why
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on April 29, 2015, 10:17:34 PM

I don't think a 21 year old would be out of place in law school. Most students come straight from undergrad.

Most? Not anymore. Fair amount, yes. But most had at least 1 gap year.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on April 29, 2015, 11:11:00 PM
Most? Not anymore. Fair amount, yes. But most had at least 1 gap year.
Most law students don't go to your school... Regardless 21 isn't too young is the agreement.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on April 30, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
Pm sent.
Note you are not my lawyer and i'm not entering into any legal relationship with you, and I won't disclose any confidential information to you. I understand that if you give advice, it will be purely common sense advice based on your experience with corporate matters, not real legal advice. (disclaimer to disclaimer, I have no idea if this works, but hopefully makes clear that this is not a client-lawyer relationship).
Why can't you post it publicly if there is no confidential information?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 30, 2015, 03:55:30 PM
Why can't you post it publicly if there is no confidential information?

Post!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: raphy781 on April 30, 2015, 04:07:42 PM
Didn't want to clog the thread, but if you insist.
How does someone get officially appointed as an authorized officer to a(n s) corporation (What's the process?) without him/her being a paid employee, and without him/her owning any share of said corporation?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 30, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
Didn't want to clog the thread, but if you insist.
How does someone get officially appointed as an authorized officer to a(n s) corporation (What's the process?) without him/her being a paid employee, and without him/her owning any share of said corporation?
Bylaws
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: raphy781 on April 30, 2015, 04:21:03 PM
Bylaws
Is that a question or an answer?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ches on April 30, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
Answer.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on April 30, 2015, 04:25:58 PM
Is that a question or an answer?
The bylaws set forth who are the officers and directors of the corporation (neither of whom need to be shareholders).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on April 30, 2015, 04:35:27 PM
I use the trylaws. Its safer.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on April 30, 2015, 04:44:04 PM
I use the trylaws. Its safer.
You must be thinking of bi-laws and tri-laws :D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 01, 2015, 06:30:40 PM
I don't think a 21 year old would be out of place in law school. Most students come straight from undergrad.

"What is the average age of an NYU School of Law student?

For the fall 2013 entering class, approximately 70% of the students had taken at least one year off prior to entering law school.  Approximately 12% of the students had been out of college for five years or more.  The average age of the students in last year’s entering class was 24. "

- http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/applicants/jdapplicationfaq#22
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on May 01, 2015, 07:13:32 PM
"What is the average age of an NYU School of Law student?

For the fall 2013 entering class, approximately 70% of the students had taken at least one year off prior to entering law school.  Approximately 12% of the students had been out of college for five years or more.  The average age of the students in last year’s entering class was 24. "

- http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/applicants/jdapplicationfaq#22

13 was also a different legal market.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 03, 2015, 09:07:47 AM
Is there any book you guys recommend where I can learn more about all the different career paths one can take as a lawyer, as well as learn more about what the different types of lawyers do on a daily basis at work?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 03, 2015, 01:14:49 PM
Is there any book you guys recommend where I can learn more about all the different career paths one can take as a lawyer, as well as learn more about what the different types of lawyers do on a daily basis at work?

I've never heard of any, and frankly would not trust any book that purported to do so.

Re the career paths: You'll find a lot of lawyers doing things other than practicing law, and while often their legal career led to that job, it can hardly be called a "career track" since it would not be very possible to set out to do that from the first place. 

Re what they do on daily basis: The best way to find that out is to ask various lawyers what they do.  You can ask us. 

Here's what I did on Friday (only the things that took more than a few minutes):
Made a chart of the tax terms of a private equity fund for a potential investor.
Spoke to tax counsel at a potential target company about their tax structuring.
Spoke to client's accountants about a certain FATCA arrangement we had recommended.
Drafted templates for 83(b) elections for a private equity client that is giving equity interests to certain employees.
Emailed with the litigation team in a Tax Court litigation about their comments to a brief I had revised.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on May 03, 2015, 01:57:39 PM
I've never heard of any, and frankly would not trust any book that purported to do so.

Re the career paths: You'll find a lot of lawyers doing things other than practicing law, and while often their legal career led to that job, it can hardly be called a "career track" since it would not be very possible to set out to do that from the first place. 

Re what they do on daily basis: The best way to find that out is to ask various lawyers what they do.  You can ask us. 

Here's what I did on Friday (only the things that took more than a few minutes):
Made a chart of the tax terms of a private equity fund for a potential investor.
Spoke to tax counsel at a potential target company about their tax structuring.
Spoke to client's accountants about a certain FATCA arrangement we had recommended.
Drafted templates for 83(b) elections for a private equity client that is giving equity interests to certain employees.
Emailed with the litigation team in a Tax Court litigation about their comments to a brief I had revised.

This could be fun. This was my Friday:

Review a respondent's objection filed in one of my cases
Request corrections on accounting statements for pending cases
Spend the bulk of the day in court on paternity and support cases (taking testimony, reviewing evidence, arguing with magistrates)
Begin drafting a motion to correct identifying information in an old order
Look at an internal research question relating to birth certificates
Send an assessment of objections and the like arising out of the court session to my supervising attorney
Paperwork (creating lists of modified orders, cases that need further attention, cases needing paralegal followup, etc...)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 03, 2015, 05:07:22 PM
This was my Friday:

Take an *early* flight from Palau to Tokyo via Guam.

Check into the Sheraton next to Chabad.

Grab a bite at King Felafel.

Head to Shibuya Crossing.

Take a nap then head to Chabad for prayers and dinner.

Tomorrow should be more interesting for this thread :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on May 03, 2015, 08:12:47 PM
Friday:

Plan a trip to Aruba for when things calm down.
Phone conference regarding upcoming bankruptcy trial.
Prepare a few pleadings for pending foreclosure matters.
Booked flight re above.
Made sure my employees were set with their duties for the day.
Went out to lunch.
Decided not to go back to work.
Booked hotel re above.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 03, 2015, 08:25:18 PM
Friday:

Plan a trip to Aruba for when things calm down.
Phone conference regarding upcoming bankruptcy trial.
Prepare a few pleadings for pending foreclosure matters.
Booked flight re above.
Made sure my employees were set with their duties for the day.
Went out to lunch.
Decided not to go back to work.
Booked hotel re above.

Your job sounds better than mine. Wanna trade?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on May 03, 2015, 09:20:03 PM
Your job sounds better than mine. Wanna trade?

I'm very fortunate.  So, no thank you.  :)
My partner is a CPA/Esq so I get out of all the boring stuff.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: solls108 on May 03, 2015, 11:08:49 PM
First take the LSAT see what you get and then worry about where to apply.
+1
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 03, 2015, 11:16:45 PM
+1

Did you really just +1 a comment from 2 weeks ago?  :o You gotta find better ways to procrastinate...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 03, 2015, 11:42:01 PM
If you ever do go to law school, don't EVER take a 24 hour take-home exam. They are terrible. (I'm in the middle of one now.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 04, 2015, 08:01:17 AM
If you ever do go to law school, don't EVER take a 24 hour take-home exam. They are terrible. (I'm in the middle of one now.)
Word limit or not?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 04, 2015, 08:06:17 AM
First take the LSAT see what you get and then worry about where to apply.
+1

Speaking of which, any tips for LSAT preparation? Books you recommend? Class instructors who are great?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 04, 2015, 08:20:27 AM

Word limit or not?

Page limit. But what makes it bad is because you have 24-hours to do it, the professors demand a polished product.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 04, 2015, 08:32:47 AM
Speaking of which, any tips for LSAT preparation? Books you recommend? Class instructors who are great?
Lsat by fisch. But no matter how you study you need to set a side at least a couple months to study at least 6 hours a day. And take real timed and simulated practice tests, preferably all of the recent ones. The lsat can be mastered and learned it's a question of how long it takes for each person. The questions are repetitive at a certain point that's why you need to learn all the previous tests well.

Also join top law school forums they have an invaluable amount of information there.
Did you really just +1 a comment from 2 weeks ago?  :o You gotta find better ways to procrastinate...
I always thought take home tests would be the absolute worst.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 04, 2015, 09:14:09 AM
I never did a 24 hour. I had two 8 hours, both as a 3L
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 04, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
Lsat by fisch. But no matter how you study you need to set a side at least a couple months to study at least 6 hours a day. And take real timed and simulated practice tests, preferably all of the recent ones. The lsat can be mastered and learned it's a question of how long it takes for each person. The questions are repetitive at a certain point that's why you need to learn all the previous tests well.

Also join top law school forums they have an invaluable amount of information there. I always thought take home tests would be the absolute worst.

+100
 And wow, JJ advising a DDF member to join another forum?!?!  :o

I never did a 24 hour. I had two 8 hours, both as a 3L

Lucky you. Just submitted! And now have to study for a 12 hour on Wednesday  >:(
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on May 04, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
+100
 And wow, JJ advising a DDF member to join another forum?!?!  :o

Mods...?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 04, 2015, 11:13:40 AM
Does anyone have personal experience with Fisch? His class is a decent amount more money than other courses, so I just wanted to make sure he's much better than whatever else is available.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 04, 2015, 11:26:57 AM
Does anyone have personal experience with Fisch? His class is a decent amount more money than other courses, so I just wanted to make sure he's much better than whatever else is available.
Yes, I did Fisch and it was money well spent. Especially for how he helps you master games.

Reading comp advice is a bit lacking, but it seems to be that way everywhere. Just have to do a lot of them and make you own way of doing it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 04, 2015, 12:37:47 PM

Reading comp advice is a bit lacking, but it seems to be that way everywhere. Just have to do a lot of them and make you own way of doing it.
+1 There doesn't seem to be a system for reading comprehension. I took powerscore and my instructor said the same thing. Keep doing them, find what works, and stick with that.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on May 04, 2015, 02:30:50 PM
I never did a 24 hour. I had two 8 hours, both as a 3L
I recall a three day take-home exam in Accounting for Lawyers. The class was pass/fail (with the exception of a couple of gunners who took it for a grade), so as long as the 12 pages submitted corresponded remotely to the financial statements analyzed, you were fine. There were several 8-hour take-homes which I made a point of taking in school with other exam-takers, which made for less distraction.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on May 04, 2015, 02:33:31 PM
Does anyone have personal experience with Fisch? His class is a decent amount more money than other courses, so I just wanted to make sure he's much better than whatever else is available.
I personally did not use him, but just keep in mind as you prepare, that the difference between an average score and an exceptional score can mean significant $$$ scholarship incentives from better schools. You could be saving many multiples of the cost of the class in tuition reduction.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 04, 2015, 02:36:44 PM
There were several 8-hour take-homes which I made a point of taking in school with other exam-takers, which made for less distraction.
I like that idea, makes a lot of sense.


I personally did not use him, but just keep in mind as you prepare, that the difference between an average score and an exceptional score can mean significant $$$ scholarship incentives from better schools. You could be saving many multiples of the cost of the class in tuition reduction.
For me it was T14 or bust. So it was a no brainier to pay the extra money for who I was told is the best guy out there.

So besides scholarship money it can be the difference of being in a law school that gets jobs or one that doesn't get jobs.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 04, 2015, 04:06:11 PM
I didn't use anyone for LSAT.  I don't think I even knew they existed.  Call it luck.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 04, 2015, 10:21:55 PM
Does anyone have personal experience with Fisch? His class is a decent amount more money than other courses, so I just wanted to make sure he's much better than whatever else is available.
  I didnt go to kaplans or any other classes (no idea what fisch is), and found in my small sample size that my smarter friends did much worse than i think they would have done had they studied hard on their own. I used a used "LSAT 180" advanced book (this was back in 2003) from Kaplan, a bad kaplan compter program, and 2 used books of 10 actual tests (yeshiva handme-downs).
i erased all the answers etc. (took some time actually) then did it all from scratch and redid the tests, making sure to figure out each time why i got a wrong answer and burning it in my skull.
I find that some classes have a laid back feel and cater to the person who has a 150 and wants a 160, but for those who start out at 160, the best thing is prob your own regimen. i studied hard for one full month, and gained about 11 points on my initial cold test.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 05, 2015, 08:17:37 AM
  I didnt go to kaplans or any other classes (no idea what fisch is), and found in my small sample size that my smarter friends did much worse than i think they would have done had they studied hard on their own. I used a used "LSAT 180" advanced book (this was back in 2003) from Kaplan, a bad kaplan compter program, and 2 used books of 10 actual tests (yeshiva handme-downs).
i erased all the answers etc. (took some time actually) then did it all from scratch and redid the tests, making sure to figure out each time why i got a wrong answer and burning it in my skull.
I find that some classes have a laid back feel and cater to the person who has a 150 and wants a 160, but for those who start out at 160, the best thing is prob your own regimen. i studied hard for one full month, and gained about 11 points on my initial cold test.
Fisch doesn't just teach strategy he also gives you a regiment to work by for studying.

Obviously every person is different. I believe I heard once that something like 1/3 of Fischs students get 170+. Now that could be a lot of factors but it still shows something to me. Also I've seen him improve students by 20+ points from the practice test.

As I mentioned for me the games are his strongest point. I could barely do a single game before his class, going into test day I could finish any game section with at least 5 minutes to spare, after double checking all my work.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 05, 2015, 10:33:00 AM
As I mentioned for me the games are his strongest point. I could barely do a single game before his class, going into test day I could finish any game section with at least 5 minutes to spare, after double checking all my work.

I didn't take Fisch but I've heard that he's great too. Though, the games do have a system so I wouldn't necessarily go to him just for that. I did PowerScore and I had them down like JJ too. But it he gives you a regiment for studying then maybe it's worth it because my instructor didn't really do that...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on May 05, 2015, 11:25:36 AM
I didn't take Fisch but I've heard that he's great too. Though, the games do have a system so I wouldn't necessarily go to him just for that. I did PowerScore and I had them down like JJ too. But it he gives you a regiment for studying then maybe it's worth it because my instructor didn't really do that...
+1 on the games. They are the same concept over and over, and anyone can master them. There's absolutely no excuse to get even 1 game question wrong. Eventually you just do them automatically without thinking.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: nyfellow on May 05, 2015, 04:13:54 PM
wow so many legal eagles in the house BH. The yarmulke thing is tricky. Shaving on CH you see in other professions as well. The yarmulke deal is pretty much a legal thing. id venture to guess most partners and associates at BIGLAW still do not wear yarmulkas at work. I hope this changes, imh one day soon.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 05, 2015, 05:13:24 PM
The yarmulke deal is pretty much a legal thing.

And banking.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 05, 2015, 05:23:06 PM
id venture to guess most partners and associates at BIGLAW still do not wear yarmulkas at work. I hope this changes, imh one day soon.

I'd venture to say that most associates in biglaw do.  My office is 4/4, and it isn't even NYC. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: nyfellow on May 05, 2015, 05:33:04 PM
I'd venture to say that most associates in biglaw do.  My office is 4/4, and it isn't even NYC.
I'm confused by your comment "it isn't even NYC". I'd assume NYC is more cut-throat/old school than out of town counterparts where there often is a more relaxed environment. Again, I do not have any hard data but of the 10 or so associates (BIG LAW + MID SIZE) I personally know that work in NYC, most do not wear yarmulkas. Anything smaller than midsize or heimishe firms, which BH there are more and more is obviously another story. Just my observations. Again, I wish it changes.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 05, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I'm confused by your comment "it isn't even NYC". I'd assume NYC is more cut-throat/old school than out of town counterparts where there often is a more relaxed environment. Again, I do not have any hard data but of the 10 or so associates (BIG LAW + MID SIZE) I personally know that work in NYC, most do not wear yarmulkas. Anything smaller than midsize or heimishe firms, which BH there are more and more is obviously another story. Just my observations. Again, I wish it changes.
I would assume that in NY people are used to seeing people with Yarmulkas.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: nyfellow on May 05, 2015, 05:49:54 PM
I would assume that in NY people are used to seeing people with Yarmulkas.
I hear ya. But the profession itself is still very waspy. Seeing one and having one of their own walking around with one are two different things. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 05, 2015, 05:51:25 PM
I would assume that in NY people are used to seeing people with Yarmulkas.

That was my thinking.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: nyfellow on May 05, 2015, 05:53:48 PM
That was my thinking.
I hear ya, and one would assume. Trust me  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on May 05, 2015, 06:33:52 PM
I don't know if this is news to anyone, but NY is adopting the Uniform Bar Exam.  (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/nyregion/new-york-state-to-adopt-uniform-bar-exam.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 05, 2015, 06:38:51 PM
I don't know if this is news to anyone, but NY is adopting the Uniform Bar Exam.  (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/nyregion/new-york-state-to-adopt-uniform-bar-exam.html?_r=0)

Still trying to figure out if this makes things easier or harder...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: good sam on May 05, 2015, 06:41:10 PM
Still trying to figure out if this makes things easier or harder...
I assume the passing rate is about to get a great deal higher.

Unless I'm mistaken, this means that 15 or so subjects are being dropped, and you no longer have to memorize 2 sets of  laws.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 05, 2015, 06:48:02 PM
I assume the passing rate is about to get a great deal higher.

Unless I'm mistaken, this means that 15 or so subjects are being dropped, and you no longer have to memorize 2 sets of  laws.

New york lawyers were always second rate. Not surprisng they need a "modified" bar. MA has a 90 percent pass rate without dropping 3/4 of the information.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 05, 2015, 06:49:39 PM
I heard  some people hire admissions consultants for their applications. Waste of money?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 05, 2015, 06:52:57 PM
I heard  some people hire admissions consultants for their applications. Waste of money?

Probably. What exactly do they do?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 05, 2015, 06:59:50 PM
I heard  some people hire admissions consultants for their applications. Waste of money?

I encourage this.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mercaz1 on May 05, 2015, 08:22:08 PM
I would assume that in NY people are used to seeing people with Yarmulkas.

people want a jewish lawyer but not a jewish looking one
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 05, 2015, 08:25:18 PM
people want a jewish lawyer but not a jewish looking one
Rappers love Jewish lawyers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5lQRZXx8BE)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on May 05, 2015, 08:28:01 PM
Probably. What exactly do they do?

Help you with personal statement/resume/waitlist etc.

I encourage this.

Do you know someone who's good?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 05, 2015, 08:39:13 PM
Help you with personal statement/resume/waitlist etc.

Do you know someone who's good?

No, but, I think yeshiva guys are clueless about putting together a good application, and that it matters a lot more for them.

For every 170+ yeshiva guy you know in columbia or penn, there are another two in Fordham. All you have is a LSAT score and whatever you put in the rest of your application. You're competing against ivy league kids who did teach for america and worked at hedge funds. And against a hundred yeshiva guys who may as well be your clones.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 05, 2015, 11:48:35 PM
That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.

I agree with the former part of this statement, but not the latter.

I agree that you should never, ever compromise your religious beliefs unless you are in a dire situation, but I do not agree that Yiddishkeit is necessarily an asset in the workforce.

As a Frum Jew, you sometimes need to accept that there are limitations, especially in business. If you get turned down at an interview and you believe it is because of your Yarmulke, then remember that this is what is called a "Nisayon". If you actually pay attention to what you believe in and what you Daven for three times a day, then you already know that Hashem will provide, one way or another.

Another point: actively seeking out Heterim to compromise on Yiddishkeit is one of the most dangerous and damaging things you can do to your spirituality and that of your family. Think of a Heter like medical steroids. When a part of your body like your lungs are G-d forbid failing, a steroid shot may be required to get it back to its normal function. It's a huge compromise, but one that is absolutely necessary. Take steroids too often, and it will destroy your body. Likewise, Heterim are meant to be used in dire situations.

Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 12:32:34 AM
I agree with the former part of this statement, but not the latter.

I agree that you should never, ever compromise your religious beliefs unless you are in a dire situation, but I do not agree that Yiddishkeit is necessarily an asset in the workforce.

As a Frum Jew, you sometimes need to accept that there are limitations, especially in business. If you get turned down at an interview and you believe it is because of your Yarmulke, then remember that this is what is called a "Nisayon". If you actually pay attention to what you believe in and what you Daven for three times a day, then you already know that Hashem will provide, one way or another.

Another point: actively seeking out Heterim to compromise on Yiddishkeit is one of the most dangerous and damaging things you can do to your spirituality and that of your family. Think of a Heter like medical steroids. When a part of your body like your lungs are G-d forbid failing, a steroid shot may be required to get it back to its normal function. It's a huge compromise, but one that is absolutely necessary. Take steroids too often, and it will destroy your body. Likewise, Heterim are meant to be used in dire situations.

Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.
+1 well said, though I would say that I wouldnt put taking of your yarlmuke and shaking hands with members of the opposite gender in the same category.
Title: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 12:46:05 AM
Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.

Um, completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I agree that "heter shopping" is a slippery slope, but what you're saying in the last paragraph is a little ridiculous. If you don't hide what you're doing from your kid and you give them an explanation when they ask about it, I don't think that you're going to find your kid eating a cheeseburger in McDonalds the next Yom Kippur. Kids react to what they see at home. If they know that their father does things for work but they still see that their father is strong in his beliefs etc., seeing him shake a woman's hand isn't going to make him crazy. I have many friends from elementary/high school that went OTD, and for the majority of them, it began with their parents not practicing what they preached and hiding things from their kids/telling them what to do without an explanation.

If a father yells at his son for playing sports without a yamulka, but the father doesn't wear one all day at work and doesn't explain it, yes, the kid will think he's full of it. But after an explanation, I don't think so.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 06, 2015, 01:40:33 AM
Um, completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I agree that "heter shopping" is a slippery slope, but what you're saying in the last paragraph is a little ridiculous. If you don't hide what you're doing from your kid and you give them an explanation when they ask about it, I don't think that you're going to find your kid eating a cheeseburger in McDonalds the next Yom Kippur. Kids react to what they see at home. If they know that their father does things for work but they still see that their father is strong in his beliefs etc., seeing him shake a woman's hand isn't going to make him crazy. I have many friends from elementary/high school that went OTD, and for the majority of them, it began with their parents not practicing what they preached and hiding things from their kids/telling them what to do without an explanation.

If a father yells at his son for playing sports without a yamulka, but the father doesn't wear one all day at work and doesn't explain it, yes, the kid will think he's full of it. But after an explanation, I don't think so.

Most children look to their parents for spiritual guidance. The child does not care that you had a Heter or an explanation or excuse for going to work without a Yarmulke. Rather, the child sees one thing: compromise. You bent or found a "loophole" in Halacha to hide (or violate) your religious practices so that you can possibly earn more money or get a better job. This is a free pass for the child to not only do the same, but take it to an entirely new level.

Yes, parents who don't practice what they preach ALSO cause children to go OTD, but in this particular thread we are talking about the parent who pushes aside his religious practices for the sake of a better job.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 01:53:22 AM
Yes, parents who don't practice what they preach ALSO cause children to go OTD, but in this particular thread we are talking about the parent who pushes aside his religious practices for the sake of a better job.

Look, I can understand why many people wouldn't feel comfortable taking off their yarmulka, even if it meant getting a better job. But to accuse every single person that does this of just "pushing aside his religion" is just wrong. You're basically accusing everyone that does this of not caring about wearing a yamulka. I know a fair amount of people that do it, and none of them are guilty of not caring. These are guys that spoke with their LOR before taking it off, go to minyan 3 times a day, and even give the daf in their local shul.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 06, 2015, 02:12:48 AM
Look, I can understand why many people wouldn't feel comfortable taking off their yarmulka, even if it meant getting a better job. But to accuse every single person that does this of just "pushing aside his religion" is just wrong. You're basically accusing everyone that does this of not caring about wearing a yamulka. I know a fair amount of people that do it, and none of them are guilty of not caring. These are guys that spoke with their LOR before taking it off, go to minyan 3 times a day, and even give the daf in their local shul.

Nowhere did I indicate that I am accusing everyone who does this of not caring about religion.

If the individual is a Baal Teshuva who is a professional boxer or baseball player, or maybe even a doctor or lawyer, I can understand the Heter. Everything positive a Baal Teshuva does is a step forward.

However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 02:23:47 AM

Nowhere did I indicate that I am accusing everyone who does this of not caring about religion.

If the individual is a Baal Teshuva who is a professional boxer or baseball player, or maybe even a doctor or lawyer, I can understand the Heter. Everything positive a Baal Teshuva does is a step forward.

However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.

So if I understand you correctly, if you are not a Baal Teshuva and you take off your Yamulka, you don't care about religion. Right?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 08:43:01 AM
So if I understand you correctly, if you are not a Baal Teshuva and you take off your Yamulka, you don't care about religion. Right?
incorrect, you just have your priorities in the wrong order.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 08:58:41 AM
+1 well said, though I would say that I wouldnt put taking of your yarlmuke and shaking hands with members of the opposite gender in the same category.

Which order would you put them in?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 06, 2015, 09:13:36 AM


However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.

Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 10:02:13 AM

Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
Which order would you put them in?
Hard to define them "in order", thought the way I would define them is,


Not wearing/ wearing your yarlmuke only has to do with you meaning you arent affecting anyone else


Not shaking hands with a lady/man  could be a huge chilul hashem under certain circumstances
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 10:05:25 AM
Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.
not at all, who said there is anything wrong with a suede yarlmuke or a kippah srugah?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 11:07:23 AM
Hard to define them "in order", thought the way I would define them is,


Not wearing/ wearing your yarlmuke only has to do with you meaning you arent affecting anyone else


Not shaking hands with a lady/man  could be a huge chilul hashem under certain circumstances

Wait, you think not shaking could be a chillul Hashem?  How do you figure?

(NTD: I do shake hands with everyone.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 11:20:11 AM
Wait, you think not shaking could be a chillul Hashem?  How do you figure?

(NTD: I do shake hands with everyone.)
correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 06, 2015, 11:24:15 AM
correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem
Same reason not eating with everyone else is a chilul hashem? Even if your client invites you for dinner at his house.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 11:30:51 AM
correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem

I don't think I have the same definition of chillul Hashem as you. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 12:34:42 PM
correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem
It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 12:42:57 PM
It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?

Now that I know that shaking a woman's hand is equivalent to Avodah Zara, I know what OCI really stands for– On Campus Idols.

Mind. Blown.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 06, 2015, 12:44:48 PM
Now that I know that shaking a woman's hand is equivalent to Avodah Zara, I know what OCI really stands for– On Campus Idols.

Mind. Blown.  ;D ;D ;D
May as well sleep with the woman recruiters like the non-frum guys do.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 12:47:07 PM
I don't think I have the same definition of chillul Hashem as you.
that's completely fine
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 12:47:49 PM
It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?
correct, the chazon ish does say something like that
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 12:48:32 PM
May as well sleep with the woman recruiters like the non-frum guys do.

And I thought those guys did better at OCI because they weren't wearing yamulkas...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 06, 2015, 01:01:03 PM
And I thought those guys did better at OCI because they weren't wearing yamulkas...


I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 01:01:47 PM

I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.
But sleeping can lead to handshaking...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 06, 2015, 01:02:18 PM
But sleeping can lead to handshaking...

You have to set gedarim obviously
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 01:03:45 PM
You have to set gedarim obviously
Don't you think insisting on sleeping with gloves would be somewhat of a Chillul Hashem?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 01:04:48 PM

I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.

What about sleeping with the male recruiter? That will score you even more points with the firm...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 06, 2015, 01:04:55 PM
Don't you think insisting on sleeping with gloves would be somewhat of a Chillul Hashem?

I suppose it depends if you're wearing a yalmukah as well or not
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 06, 2015, 01:05:41 PM
What about sleeping with the male recruiter? That will score you even more points with the firm...

What's the point, just shake his hand
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 06, 2015, 02:01:54 PM
So happy the discussion took a positive turn BH, as it was getting too contentious. Peeps, please dont judge any other jew, halacha is never cut and dry and there are always competing factors that must be considered. I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem (will never forget it) at a Skadden recruiting lunch when i was a fiery 1L straight from yeshiva. I walk in and there are the 2 blondest women skadden could hire waiting to greet everyone with their hands outstretched. BH i was careful not to even glance (let alone stare) at their fingernails, and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.

After that i learned up the sugya (this is actually a nice piece by R Gil http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html) and realized that there is what to rely on, and more importantly, the negative slight and misogynist implication is clearly not something that will make God's name great in the world (as our essential mission is stated), so in my personal opinion, after speaking with my rebbe, since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see. if u disagree, thats fine, but dont assume people choose differently BECAUSE they skimp or follow ta'avah, sometimes people just weigh the competing factors in all decisions we must make differently (see R Chaim Shmulevitz's opening on Aveirah lishma, really important on this topic).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 06, 2015, 02:06:53 PM
While your conclusion may be correct, I completely disagree with how you got there
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 06, 2015, 02:11:07 PM
While your conclusion may be correct, I completely disagree with how you got there
R' Ergel, could u explain? u disagree with competing halachic principles?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 03:37:46 PM
So happy the discussion took a positive turn BH, as it was getting too contentious. Peeps, please dont judge any other jew, halacha is never cut and dry and there are always competing factors that must be considered. I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem (will never forget it) at a Skadden recruiting lunch when i was a fiery 1L straight from yeshiva. I walk in and there are the 2 blondest women skadden could hire waiting to greet everyone with their hands outstretched. BH i was careful not to even glance (let alone stare) at their fingernails, and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.

After that i learned up the sugya (this is actually a nice piece by R Gil http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html) and realized that there is what to rely on, and more importantly, the negative slight and misogynist implication is clearly not something that will make God's name great in the world (as our essential mission is stated), so in my personal opinion, after speaking with my rebbe, since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see. if u disagree, thats fine, but dont assume people choose differently BECAUSE they skimp or follow ta'avah, sometimes people just weigh the competing factors in all decisions we must make differently (see R Chaim Shmulevitz's opening on Aveirah lishma, really important on this topic).
A tzad heter doesn't all of a sudden turn being machmir into a chillul Hashem. It means that being meikel is likely not a chillul Hashem in and of itself. Why do you think those awkward 5 seconds were a chillul Hashem?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 06, 2015, 04:24:23 PM
A tzad heter doesn't all of a sudden turn being machmir into a chillul Hashem. It means that being meikel is likely not a chillul Hashem in and of itself. Why do you think those awkward 5 seconds were a chillul Hashem?
Because women (and men who are sensitive to it), who are disadvantaged in many religious circles, may (and in some cases do) assume that no matter what i say i am covering up a mysoginist attitude of women being dirty/impure or something similar, which leads to an assumption that our religion is backward and silly, and our god is either an idiot or evil.

chillul means making not special/ordinary. if our religion/God is implied to have the frailties of bigoted men, there is chillul haShem, and it'll be harder to see the day when hashem is one and his name is one (per meforshim, his name being his status in the eyes of the nations).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 04:27:45 PM
Because women (and men who are sensitive to it), who are disadvantaged in many religious circles, may (and in some cases do) assume that no matter what i say i am covering up a mysoginist attitude of women being dirty/impure or something similar, which leads to an assumption that our religion is backward and silly, and our god is either an idiot or evil.

chillul means making not special/ordinary. if our religion/God is implied to have the frailties of bigoted men, there is chillul haShem, and it'll be harder to see the day when hashem is one and his name is one (per meforshim, his name being his status in the eyes of the nations).
I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 04:41:05 PM
I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?
That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

There's a reason the FIRST Seif in Shulchan Aruch says "לא יתבייש מפני בני אדם המלעיגים עליו"

Now while my Rov would Pasken that shaking a woman's hand is forbidden for business, evryone has to follow their own Rov and what's right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 04:41:44 PM
I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?
+1. I wasn't saying I personally follow the Chazon Ish. My whole point was that chillul Hashem is not the right words for this. There may be a 'don't make people uncomfortable' heter. but that's not chilul Hashem. Is it a chilul Hashem to wear your tzitzis out? not shave on chol hamoed? refuse to step in to a treife restaurant? there's heteirim for all of those, and by all means, seek out the tzad heter. I would if my job depended on it, or even if I just thought so. But it's wrong to term a machmir as a chilul Hashem
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 04:42:57 PM
with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife.
You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife. :)




since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see.
As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 06, 2015, 04:50:24 PM
That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

Now while my Rov would Pasken that shaking a woman's hand is forbidden for business, evryone has to follow their own Rov and what's right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone...
Bingo
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 06, 2015, 04:51:39 PM
You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife. :)



As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?
I think some poskim will tell you that shaking hands is not derech chiba and therefore mutar
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 06, 2015, 05:01:05 PM
You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife. :)
As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on May 06, 2015, 05:10:17 PM
As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......

Wince.  :-\
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife. :)



As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?
As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......

You folks better attend that sexual harassment training.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 06, 2015, 05:18:32 PM
That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

There's a reason the FIRST Seif in Shulchan Aruch says "לא יתבייש מפני בני אדם המלעיגים עליו"
My point is i agree that of course what haters may say cannot overcome what the actual halacha in any specific instance is. But since what others think or say (on a broad scale) and the affects with respect thereto can and does affect the halachic imperative itself in many respects (darchei shalom etc.), the halacha to follow (i believe, after discussing with my LOR), incorporating all of the factors at hand including today's women and biases with respect thereto, the regularized handshake as a means of formality without any sexual or even familiar connotation, and the fact that me being so consicous of the specific act i am doing and the geder generally imposed (so that there is no way i will succumb to jumping on this woman in the conference room table), is that i should shake the hand (not just i can). 
And of course, i was joking about throwing my hand at any women i see. or maybe i'm this guy
(warning pg-13)

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 05:43:04 PM
My point is i agree that of course what haters may say cannot overcome what the actual halacha in any specific instance is. But since what others think or say (on a broad scale) and the affects with respect thereto can and does affect the halachic imperative itself in many respects (darchei shalom etc.), the halacha to follow (i believe, after discussing with my LOR), incorporating all of the factors at hand including today's women and biases with respect thereto, the regularized handshake as a means of formality without any sexual or even familiar connotation, and the fact that me being so consicous of the specific act i am doing and the geder generally imposed (so that there is no way i will succumb to jumping on this woman in the conference room table), is that i should shake the hand (not just i can). 
And of course, i was joking about throwing my hand at any women i see. or maybe i'm this guy
(warning pg-13)
I don't think anyone was taking specific issue with your decision to shake hands. But you said:
...I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem ...
and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.
You've yet to explain how you made a chillul Hashem. The position of not shaking a women's hand in any circumstance certainly has strong basis in halacha, even though it's probably not the only valid halachic approach to the sugya. So how could it be a chillul Hashem?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on May 06, 2015, 06:00:28 PM
In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 06:30:44 PM
In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...
What's to understand? That's a very condescending attitude, especially since there are many in the 'professional business world' who don't shake.

Personally I shake, but mainly because I'm spineless and hate awkwardness, not because I believe it's the right thing to do. If it would be something that's straight out assur, I'm sure I'd figure out a way to not shake, but there's what to rely on, so I do it and feel bad about it each time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ches on May 06, 2015, 06:34:50 PM
The definition of Chilul Hashem is, when the world see that we are not following the Torah. If by following the Torah we do some awkward thing, then it's not called Chilul Hashem.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 06:35:03 PM
I think some poskim will tell you that shaking hands is not derech chiba and therefore mutar
and therefore not אביזרייהו דעריות, that doesn't make it muttar
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 06:37:03 PM
You folks better attend that sexual harassment training.
I was kidding. so was JJ. Noone thinks you should say that. the only thing that probably works to some extent is what my brother does, which is to tell people pre meeting in an email or through his secretary. It takes away the awkwardness to a large degree.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on May 06, 2015, 06:39:05 PM
What's to understand? That's a very condescending attitude, especially since there are many in the 'professional business world' who don't shake.

Personally I shake, but mainly because I'm spineless and hate awkwardness, not because I believe it's the right thing to do. If it would be something that's straight out assur, I'm sure I'd figure out a way to not shake, but there's what to rely on, so I do it and feel bad about it each time.


I think you misunderstood. Not saying that it is or is not correct (through I personally do),  just saying that to understand the issue and the awkward situations,  you need to be part of the professional business world
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 06:43:04 PM
In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...
I don't think anyone taking part in this conversation is NOT in the professional business world, or in law school. We all get it. (In fact most Rabbi's who are out and about do as well, but they can blame it on being Rabbi's)And I'd imagine most of us are meikel and are spineless, like skyguy said. But at least it's with the perspective of this isn't ideal. And ditto for the yarmulka, shaving, shoes on 9 Av questions. (Sleeping with the recruiters is a whole different story though.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 06:45:27 PM
The definition of Chilul Hashem is, when the world see that we are not following the Torah. If by following the Torah we do some awkward thing, then it's not called Chilul Hashem.
Correct thats what my LOR told me
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: blerbz on May 06, 2015, 06:49:19 PM
B'h I no longer have the issue but there was a time I was having trouble finding a job. I was speaking to a (very chareidi) rebbe of mine in E'Y and he asked if I wear a yarmulka. Of course i did. He told me I'd better ask a posek before making such assumptions that I was doing what's right I was surprised but I asked a well known posek and was told that I was not allowed to wear it. Not a heter - actually forbidden to wear it (I told him I wanted to). Was also told to never let my kids know because for a kid it's shmad. In one if the backward things in life essentially a rov made me stop wearing a yarmulka.
It's no longer nogeia for me, but was an eye opener
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yordai Dooma on May 06, 2015, 06:53:58 PM
In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...
+1000

That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.
B'h I no longer have the issue but there was a time I was having trouble finding a job. I was speaking to a (very chareidi) rebbe of mine in E'Y and he asked if I wear a yarmulka. Of course i did. He told me I'd better ask a posek before making such assumptions that I was doing what's right I was surprised but I asked a well known posek and was told that I was not allowed to wear it. Not a heter - actually forbidden to wear it (I told him I wanted to). Was also told to never let my kids know because for a kid it's shmad. In one if the backward things in life essentially a rov made me stop wearing a yarmulka.
It's no longer nogeia for me, but was an eye opener
I actually heard the following from a friend of mine (he heard it from his friend who asked R' Elyashiv):
He posed the question like this- Every year on R'H its determined how much money a person will make in the upcoming year. If i wear my yarmulka to a business meeting and i lose the deal (solely because i was wearing my yarmulka), did i just lose money that i was supposed to make? The answer was yes! 
In other words, had i not worn my yarmulka, i would have gotten the deal and earned the money i was destined to earn. The money i lost may was destined for me on R'H, but i lost it by wearing my yarmulka and therefore will not make as much as hashem planned for me for the year.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 06, 2015, 06:57:35 PM
So a Yarmulka is an anti-keli. Cool.
I wonder what peyos or a beard must be?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on May 06, 2015, 06:59:05 PM
So a Yarmulka is an anti-keli. Cool.
I wonder what peyos or a beard must be?
Maybe you should shave your beard
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 06, 2015, 07:01:48 PM
Can we get a full list of halachos in shulchan aruch that are anti-kelis?

Shaking hands.
Yarmulkas.
Not shaving.

Keeping kosher?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 07:06:30 PM
Can we get a full list of halachos in shulchan aruch that are anti-kelis?

Shaking hands.
Yarmulkas.
Not shaving.

Keeping kosher?
Don't forget Shabbos.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 07:09:11 PM
Don't forget Shabbos.
What about sleeping with the male recruiter?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 06, 2015, 07:09:16 PM
+1000
I actually heard the following from a friend of mine (he heard it from his friend who asked R' Elyashiv):
He posed the question like this- Every year on R'H its determined how much money a person will make in the upcoming year. If i wear my yarmulka to a business meeting and i lose the deal (solely because i was wearing my yarmulka), did i just lose money that i was supposed to make? The answer was yes! 
In other words, had i not worn my yarmulka, i would have gotten the deal and earned the money i was destined to earn. The money i lost may was destined for me on R'H, but i lost it by wearing my yarmulka and therefore will not make as much as hashem planned for me for the year.

Is this satire?

A friend who heard it from a friend?

I heard from a friend who heard from his Shvigger's cousin that rabbi Shmueli Boteach was matir sleeping with the recruiter in cases of Hefsed Meruba.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 07:10:00 PM
Is this satire?

A friend who heard it from a friend?

I heard from a friend who heard from his Shvigger's cousin that rabbi Shmueli Boteach was matir sleeping with the recruiter in cases of Hefsed Meruba.
What about sleeping with the male recruiter?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 06, 2015, 07:12:59 PM
I was kidding. so was JJ. Noone thinks you should say that. the only thing that probably works to some extent is what my brother does, which is to tell people pre meeting in an email or through his secretary. It takes away the awkwardness to a large degree.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do deal with the professional world fairly often.

I always mention in an email or a phone call pre-meeting that I cannot shake. And I try to have a sense of humor about it. As long as nobody is Jewish, I never get any weird responses. Some of the more choshuver organizations I have dealt with are incredibly on top the ball and go out of the way not to put me in an awkward position. I was even choshesh by one place that they must have had a special sensitivity training seminar that morning before I arrived. (And this was a place with over a thousand people on staff..)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yordai Dooma on May 06, 2015, 07:14:07 PM
Is this satire?

A friend who heard it from a friend?

I heard from a friend who heard from his Shvigger's cousin that rabbi Shmueli Boteach was matir sleeping with the recruiter in cases of Hefsed Meruba.
Did i really sound like i was joking??? I was merely trying to say that i didnt just "hear that R' Elyashiv once said...". I can trace it back to the person who asked the question.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
What's to understand? That's a very condescending attitude, especially since there are many in the 'professional business world' who don't shake.



Come again? Its condescending to say that those who haven't experienbced it can't understand?

I think we have a different definition of "condescending". This website really needs a definitions sectuion.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yakrot on May 06, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Come again? Its condescending to say that those who haven't experienbced it can't understand?

I think we have a different definition of "condescending". This website really needs a definitions sectuion.
How about a spelling one
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 06, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
Don't forget Shabbos.
That's a big one, but 2nd day yom tov is a massive anti-keli.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 07:59:43 PM
Full disclosure: I wear at work, though I've often second-guessed my decision and would reevaluate if I were to switch jobs.

Until this point, however, I've long thought that wearing it was the "right" thing to do for two reasons:

1) If I did not get a job *on account of the fact* that I was very obviously an orthodox Jew, I probably did not want that job in any event. Not hiring me would only be the potential beginning of a critical and judgmental work environment, the likes of which would be difficult to handle day-to-day. ("Leaving early on Friday again, AJK?" or "Didn't you just take off two days last week, dude?")

2) My mother says, "you will never go wrong doing the right thing."  Employing that cute but otherwise insightful maxim, I came to the inexorable conclusion that if I had even the least bit of emunah, including that my parnassah is set on RH for the year, then it would be rather foolish of me to compromise my religious observance in the hopes that I could "outsmart the system."  If I were going to make X per year doing what I was supposed to do (which in this case would be wearing at work), then what would I stand to gain by taking it off? Well, certainly not more money. Instead, I'd only gain a boss who may otherwise make my life difficult (see point one).

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 06, 2015, 08:28:03 PM
And banking.
Nah, this is the CEO of MasterCard:

(http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/photo/45865745.cms)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 08:29:08 PM
"Anti-keli"?  What's that mean? ChaimMoskowitz?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 08:35:50 PM
Come again? Its condescending to say that those who haven't experienbced it can't understand?

I think we have a different definition of "condescending". This website really needs a definitions sectuion.
I don't think we have a different understanding of condescension, I think we interpreted lunatic's post differently - with mine being the incorrect interpretation as per lunatic:
I think you misunderstood. Not saying that it is or is not correct (through I personally do),  just saying that to understand the issue and the awkward situations,  you need to be part of the professional business world
I was reading his original comment as saying that if you're in the professional business world you understand why it's muttar, and that those that say you shouldn't do it must not be involved in the business world. I hope you'll agree that would have qualified for the 'condescending' label.

As far as lunatic's actual point, now that I understand it, I hear the point to an extent. But poskim have to pasken on situations they have no personal experience in all the time - they gather information as best they can and apply halacha to it. Halacha doesn't care that it's awkward.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 06, 2015, 08:44:14 PM
Full disclosure: I wear at work, though I've often second-guessed my decision and would reevaluate if I were to switch jobs.

Until this point, however, I've long thought that wearing it was the "right" thing to do for two reasons:

1) If I did not get a job *on account of the fact* that I was very obviously an orthodox Jew, I probably did not want that job in any event. Not hiring me would only be the potential beginning of a critical and judgmental work environment, the likes of which would be difficult to handle day-to-day. ("Leaving early on Friday again, AJK?" or "Didn't you just take off two days last week, dude?")

2) My mother says, "you will never go wrong doing the right thing."  Employing that cute but otherwise insightful maxim, I came to the inexorable conclusion that if I had even the least bit of emunah, including that my parnassah is set on RH for the year, then it would be rather foolish of me to compromise my religious observance in the hopes that I could "outsmart the system."  If I were going to make X per year doing what I was supposed to do (which in this case would be wearing at work), then what would I stand to gain by taking it off? Well, certainly not more money. Instead, I'd only gain a boss who may otherwise make my life difficult (see point one).
+1 as usual, well said.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 06, 2015, 08:46:52 PM
+1. I wasn't saying I personally follow the Chazon Ish. My whole point was that chillul Hashem is not the right words for this. There may be a 'don't make people uncomfortable' heter. but that's not chilul Hashem. Is it a chilul Hashem to wear your tzitzis out? not shave on chol hamoed? refuse to step in to a treife restaurant? there's heteirim for all of those, and by all means, seek out the tzad heter. I would if my job depended on it, or even if I just thought so. But it's wrong to term a machmir as a chilul Hashem
And what exactly is the problem with this?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 09:01:17 PM
And what exactly is the problem with this?

Even I've heard of maaras eiyin.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 06, 2015, 09:04:20 PM
if I had even the least bit of emunah, including that my parnassah is set on RH for the year, then it would be rather foolish of me to compromise my religious observance in the hopes that I could "outsmart the system."  If I were going to make X per year doing what I was supposed to do (which in this case would be wearing at work), then what would I stand to gain by taking it off? Well, certainly not more money.

According to the story ^ of R' Eliyashiv (assuming it's true), that cheshbon is not correct if you're ruining your chances with your own hands.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 06, 2015, 09:06:29 PM
Even I've heard of maaras eiyin.
Is treife the only thing you can eat at a treife restaurant? I just order some fruits/veg. They always have something.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 09:07:42 PM
That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

There's a reason the FIRST Seif in Shulchan Aruch says "לא יתבייש מפני בני אדם המלעיגים עליו"

גדול כבוד הבריות שדוחה לא תעשה שבתורה

Not so simple. We definitely break certain halachas when it creates extreme shame.

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/shana/kvod-4.htm
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 09:17:38 PM
גדול כבוד הבריות שדוחה לא תעשה שבתורה

Not so simple. We definitely break certain halachas when it creates extreme shame.

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/shana/kvod-4.htm
The most overused heter out there
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 09:17:58 PM
2) My mother says, "you will never go wrong doing the right thing."  Employing that cute but otherwise insightful maxim, I came to the inexorable conclusion that if I had even the least bit of emunah, including that my parnassah is set on RH for the year, then it would be rather foolish of me to compromise my religious observance in the hopes that I could "outsmart the system."  If I were going to make X per year doing what I was supposed to do (which in this case would be wearing at work), then what would I stand to gain by taking it off? Well, certainly not more money. Instead, I'd only gain a boss who may otherwise make my life difficult (see point one).

That's a chicken & egg argument.

If taking it off is permitted, and taking it off would reasonably increase your probability of a higher income, keeping it on is losing out on money you're 'supposed' to earn.

If taking it off is prohibited, taking it off won't cause you to earn more.

Either way, the fact that the income is predetermined doesn't have any impact on the actual halacha, it merely makes it physcologically easier to obey.

For me personally and based on my rebbeim, there is a predetermined income from RH, but it may be better to give up on some of it in order to be closer to hashem. Nowhere does it say that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו means I won't earn less that God predetermined and it might be worth it. I thus (personally) have no issue losing 10-20% of my annual income over it but do take it off when I think an objective bystander would think it can have a bigger impact.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 09:18:31 PM
The most overused heter out there
I hope you're not implying it's incorrect.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 09:19:55 PM
Is treife the only thing you can eat at a treife restaurant? I just order some fruits/veg. They always have something.
Since most people buy non kosher in a treif restaurant there is a potential maaris ayin issue.  As usual there are mekilim and machmirim.  I'm happy to provide a list of each if you'd like,  but that wasn't my point. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 09:20:47 PM
I hope you're not implying it's incorrect.
I was implying that sometimes it's applied incorrectly. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 09:35:53 PM
I don't think we have a different understanding of condescension, I think we interpreted lunatic's post differently


Fair enough, thanks for clarifying
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 09:43:57 PM
Is treife the only thing you can eat at a treife restaurant? I just order some fruits/veg. They always have something.

So the fact that McDonalds may have some food that isn't strictly treif means there is no chashash of maaras ayin? That's news to me...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 09:51:20 PM
That's a chicken & egg argument.

If taking it off is permitted, and taking it off would reasonably increase your probability of a higher income, keeping it on is losing out on money you're 'supposed' to earn.

If taking it off is prohibited, taking it off won't cause you to earn more.

Either way, the fact that the income is predetermined doesn't have any impact on the actual halacha, it merely makes it physcologically easier to obey.

For me personally and based on my rebbeim, there is a predetermined income from RH, but it may be better to give up on some of it in order to be closer to hashem. Nowhere does it say that מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו means I won't earn less that God predetermined and it might be worth it. I thus (personally) have no issue losing 10-20% of my annual income over it but do take it off when I think an objective bystander would think it can have a bigger impact.

Can we agree that as a general rule it is better to wear it than not to wear it?

Assuming we can, then any departure from the general rule is departing from the better course of action, provided of course that there isn't some extenuating circumstance. And therein lies the rub:

Personally, I think extenuating circumstance would be fear of bodily harm, whereas you, and perhaps your rabbonim, view extenuating circumstances as possibly not getting a job.  However, I'd submit that even those rabbonim themselves would acknowledge that, all else equal, wearing would be the preferred approach.

I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yakrot on May 06, 2015, 09:53:34 PM
Can we agree that as a general rule it is better to wear it than not to wear it?

Assuming we can, then any departure from the general rule is departing from the better course of action, provided of course that there isn't some extenuating circumstance. And therein lies the rub:

Personally, I think extenuating circumstance would be fear of bodily harm, whereas you, and perhaps your rabbonim, view extenuating circumstances as possibly not getting a job.  However, I'd submit that even those rabbonim themselves would acknowledge that, all else equal, wearing would be the preferred approach.

I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job.
+1
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 10:00:05 PM
Can we agree that as a general rule it is better to wear it than not to wear it?

Assuming we can, then any departure from the general rule is departing from the better course of action, provided of course that there isn't some extenuating circumstance. And therein lies the rub:

Personally, I think extenuating circumstance would be fear of bodily harm, whereas you, and perhaps your rabbonim, view extenuating circumstances as possibly not getting a job.  However, I'd submit that even those rabbonim themselves would acknowledge that, all else equal, wearing would be the preferred approach.

I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job. 
+1
That story with R' Elyashiv sounds strange to me, I don't know enough about R' Elyashiv and his worldview I just know it pretty much goes against the Lubavitchers Rebbe's whole worldview on these matters.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 10:02:27 PM
+1
That story with R' Elyashiv sounds strange to me, I don't know enough about R' Elyashiv and his worldview I just know it pretty much goes against the Lubavitchers Rebbe's whole worldview on these matters.
One thing is for sure R Elyahsiv wouldn't care what the Lubavitcher rebbe thought.

Can we agree that as a general rule it is better to wear it than not to wear it?
I don't agree that it can't impact parnassah.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 10:06:14 PM
I don't agree that it can't impact parnassah.

Who would say it can't impact parnassah?

But if you had 100% amunah and bitchon, it wouldn't matter, as whatever it does affect, you weren't entitled to anyway.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 10:09:56 PM
Who would say it can't impact parnassah?

But if you had 100% amunah and bitchon, it wouldn't matter, as whatever it does affect, you weren't entitled to anyway.
Now I don't understand your opinion. A person can earn more than he's entitled to?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 06, 2015, 10:10:30 PM
Of course not.  All comes out in the wash.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 06, 2015, 10:15:12 PM
One thing is for sure R Elyahsiv wouldn't care what the Lubavitcher rebbe thought.


I didn't mean that R' Elyashiv would change his opinion if he knew the Rebbe disagreed. I'm just saying that for those who respect the Rebbe's opinion (and there are quite a few of those here) such an attitude is repugnant.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 10:16:20 PM
Of course not.  All comes out in the wash.


If taking it off is technically permissible and taking it off can increase parnassa, how would you define the boundary of required hishtadlus?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on May 06, 2015, 10:16:42 PM
Then I guess it would be mutual.

I didn't mean that R' Elyashiv would change his opinion if he knew the Rebbe disagreed. Is just saying that for those who respect the Rebbe's opinion (and there are quite a few of those here) such an attitude is repugnant.
I agree with every word.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 06, 2015, 10:17:25 PM
So the fact that McDonalds may have some food that isn't strictly treif means there is no chashash of maaras ayin? That's news to me...
Frankly, I don't know. I'm just asking.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 06, 2015, 10:28:27 PM
Can we agree that as a general rule it is better to wear it than not to wear it?

Note also that in some instances, its clear you shouldnt wear it. R Moshe told someone i know not to wear (he's a judge), and i have some scummy friends who are real jerks in and outside the courtroom (though good for their clients to an extent, zealous advocacy and all) that i kinda wish DIDNT wear a yarmulke. (i do wear (the only yarmulke in my firm), and am walking around with an ugly bushy face, but thats only bc i am bh comfortable where i work. i fully understand why others would shave/noyarmulke etc.)

+1. I wasn't saying I personally follow the Chazon Ish. My whole point was that chillul Hashem is not the right words for this. There may be a 'don't make people uncomfortable' heter. but that's not chilul Hashem. Is it a chilul Hashem to wear your tzitzis out? not shave on chol hamoed? refuse to step in to a treife restaurant? there's heteirim for all of those, and by all means, seek out the tzad heter. I would if my job depended on it, or even if I just thought so. But it's wrong to term a machmir as a chilul Hashem
R Thaber, you must agree that there is a huge difference between the question of shaking a hand, where the specific halacha on the books clashes with important halachic considerations and affects others, and wearing tzitzis, shaving etc.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 06, 2015, 10:40:46 PM
and am walking around with an ugly bushy face, but thats only bc i am bh comfortable where i work. i fully understand why others would shave/noyarmulke etc.)

I want to preface my question by just clarifying that I'm not attacking at all. Just asking your opinion and how you feel about something because someone has brought this up to me before–

I'm assuming at least someone has asked (or wondered in their head) why you suddenly stopped shaving (or trimming, not sure what you usually have). It is also very possible that they have heard of sfira/3 weeks and know that for work, one is allowed to shave. They may know this by looking at other co-workers who are frum and are still clean shaven for example. Do you not think that there is a slight chance that a partner perhaps would get upset at you because you walk into a client's meeting or into court with a messy beard when they know that in reality, you are allowed to shave?

Again, just asking an innocent question because before law school I was working at a big 4 and during the 3 weeks, a non-jew asked me how come I (along with 99% of the other frum accountants at the firm) were allowed to shave but one specific individual wasn't. I was honestly stumped and didn't know how to respond. So again, not attacking at all, and you're of course entitled to do whatever makes you the most comfortable.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: blerbz on May 06, 2015, 10:45:52 PM
It seems that *most* of the difference in opinion here can be attributed to litvish vs chassidus/Chabad. So all the "ask your LOR" as usual depends on who that person is
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 10:57:31 PM
I have trouble understanding why people think there is an issue of maris ayin to go to a treif restaurant. I do it all the time.  Sometimes I have even had kosher meals brought wrapped to me at these restaurants.

If you saw me at Legal Sea Food at a table with a few other lawyers, would you really have any ch'shash that I was eating their food?  Wouldn't the much more likely assumption be that either I was not eating or I was eating kosher food that had been brought in?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 11:02:59 PM


One thing is for sure R Elyahsiv wouldn't care what the Lubavitcher rebbe thought.
For sure? That's audacious. How do you know? I would assume he would respect his opinion as much as he would respect any other Torah scholars opinion.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 11:12:36 PM
I have trouble understanding why people think there is an issue of maris ayin to go to a treif restaurant. I do it all the time.  Sometimes I have even had kosher meals brought wrapped to me at these restaurants.

If you saw me at Legal Sea Food at a table with a few other lawyers, would you really have any ch'shash that I was eating their food?  Wouldn't the much more likely assumption be that either I was not eating or I was eating kosher food that had been brought in?
There's two schools of thought in the contemporary poskim.
1.people go to restaurants to eat the food that is typically served in the restaurant.  There are exceptions,  but that's the rule. And that's the assumption when you see someone in a restaurant.
2. People in midtown Manhattan or downtown Boston often meet in restaurants.  If a frum Jew is there he's probably there for a meeting.
Even according to #2,  having kosher food wrapped and brought in may not be ideal because the guy looking in the window,  who assumed you're there for a meeting,  now sees you eating. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
I want to preface my question by just clarifying that I'm not attacking at all. Just asking your opinion and how you feel about something because someone has brought this up to me before–

I'm assuming at least someone has asked (or wondered in their head) why you suddenly stopped shaving (or trimming, not sure what you usually have). It is also very possible that they have heard of sfira/3 weeks and know that for work, one is allowed to shave. They may know this by looking at other co-workers who are frum and are still clean shaven for example. Do you not think that there is a slight chance that a partner perhaps would get upset at you because you walk into a client's meeting or into court with a messy beard when they know that in reality, you are allowed to shave?

Again, just asking an innocent question because before law school I was working at a big 4 and during the 3 weeks, a non-jew asked me how come I (along with 99% of the other frum accountants at the firm) were allowed to shave but one specific individual wasn't. I was honestly stumped and didn't know how to respond. So again, not attacking at all, and you're of course entitled to do whatever makes you the most comfortable.
Why can't you say there's different opinions and levels of stringency in Jewish Law,  just as there is in civil law?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 11:15:15 PM
I have trouble understanding why people think there is an issue of maris ayin to go to a treif restaurant. I do it all the time.  Sometimes I have even had kosher meals brought wrapped to me at these restaurants.

If you saw me at Legal Sea Food at a table with a few other lawyers, would you really have any ch'shash that I was eating their food?  Wouldn't the much more likely assumption be that either I was not eating or I was eating kosher food that had been brought in?
Depends if you were wearing a yarmulke or not
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 06, 2015, 11:18:49 PM


R Thaber, you must agree that there is a huge difference between the question of shaking a hand, where the specific halacha on the books clashes with important halachic considerations and affects others, and wearing tzitzis, shaving etc.
what's the clash?

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 06, 2015, 11:31:30 PM
There's two schools of thought in the contemporary poskim.
1.people go to restaurants to eat the food that is typically served in the restaurant.  There are exceptions,  but that's the rule. And that's the assumption when you see someone in a restaurant.


Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 06, 2015, 11:43:48 PM
Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.
This is mostly utter nonsense. The data point about the yarmulke obviously can't be considered in the cheshbon, otherwise every case of maaris ayin would become mutar by simply making sure you're wearing a yarmulke. And the stuff about flying first class, etc - you don't do those things specifically in order to eat treif. But someone who goes into a restaurant is going in specifically to eat food, and the vast majority of food in a treif restaurant is treif.

The basis thaber brought for the matirim is that there's another purpose for going into a restaurant besides eating - namely a business meeting. [ETA] But as he also mentioned, this is not something that all poskim agree to.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 06, 2015, 11:50:00 PM
Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.
Seems like you are taking this from your perspective.

I've dealt with many not frum people through my years in the Chabad system and I guarantee there are Jews if they saw me in Corcky and Lenny's would assume that it's also OK for them to eat there because they saw the Rabbi eating there.

Weather that person is reasonable or not, and weather halacha takes into consideration a reasonable frum/goyish or any other type of person is a good question.

I don't know the halacha but I know many people don't think like you...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 12:01:52 AM
This is mostly utter nonsense. The data point about the yarmulke obviously can't be considered in the cheshbon, otherwise every case of maaris ayin would become mutar by simply making sure you're wearing a yarmulke. And the stuff about flying first class, etc - you don't do those things specifically in order to eat treif. But someone who goes into a restaurant is going in specifically to eat food, and the vast majority of food in a treif restaurant is treif.

The basis thaber brought for the matirim is that there's another purpose for going into a restaurant besides eating - namely a business meeting. [ETA] But as he also mentioned, this is not something that all poskim agree to.

Disagree. I'm simply raising the bar.  If you see a guy with a yarlmuke in Legal Sea Food with 2 other lawyers, 99 times out of 100 he's not eating treif.  If you see a guy in a yarlmuke sitting alone eating a big plate of ribs at an out of the way Texas BBQ, 99 times out of 100 he's eating treif.

Who cares what things you do specifically for what purposes--the main question is what the percentages are, and what normal people watching you will assume. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 12:03:23 AM
If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 12:04:39 AM
If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.

Thank you, good example.  He didn't.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 07, 2015, 12:13:20 AM
and therefore not אביזרייהו דעריות, that doesn't make it muttar
What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 07, 2015, 12:14:27 AM
Full disclosure: I wear at work, though I've often second-guessed my decision and would reevaluate if I were to switch jobs.
Why have you second-guessed your decision?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on May 07, 2015, 12:15:31 AM
Why have you second-guessed your decision?

A discussion for another day.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 12:16:50 AM
What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?
Yes, it's different. Unless you are a frotteur.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 07, 2015, 12:18:50 AM
A discussion for another day.
Boooooooooooooooo
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on May 07, 2015, 12:29:39 AM
"Anti-keli"?  What's that mean? ChaimMoskowitz?
Can someone post the definition?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 07, 2015, 12:41:38 AM
I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job.

+1

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.

Like I stated earlier, it's one thing if the guy is a Ba'al Teshuva and is working his way UP the ladder, but is just not ready to wear a Yarmulke at work yet. It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not. It's another thing for someone who grew up wearing a Yarmulke their entire life to then take it off because they believe that it might increase their chances to earn more money.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 07, 2015, 12:43:36 AM
What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?

I hear this on the NYC Subway almost every day:

"Ladies and gentlemen, a crowded subway car is no excuse for sexual misconduct. If you feel you have been the victim of a crime, please notify a police officer or an MTA employee. Remain alert and have a safe day."
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 12:46:09 AM
I hear this on the NYC Subway almost every day:

"Ladies and gentlemen, a crowded subway car is no excuse for sexual misconduct. If you feel you have been the victim of a crime, please notify a police officer or an MTA employee. Remain alert and have a safe day."

No, it's just that it's so common, they don't even bother to announce it. If you get on a train, it's ASSUMED that you are consenting to being rubbed and touched.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 07, 2015, 12:51:33 AM
If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.

lol  ;D

Bill O'reilly once interviewed Jimmy Mcmillan ("Rent is too damn high!") about welfare recipients who withdraw money from ATM's to use at strip clubs. Here is part of a transcript:

O'REILLY: All right, so Mr. McMillan "The New York Post" found out that you know strip clubs, liquor stores, some gambling establishments they were using the card in there. That's not good.

JIMMY MCMILLAN, CANDIDATE FOR NYC MAYOR: Well ATM machine across the street. The ATM machine where I went to doesn't work. So ironically it's in the strip club. But you can't assume that a person withdrawing money from an ATM machine is spending it in a strip club.

O'REILLY: I don't know -- I don't know if you can assume it but why would you go into a strip club when there are ATM machines everywhere. Why wouldn't you go to a Dunkin' Donuts. I mean come on.

MCMILLAN: Temporarily out of service, it could have all sorts of fees. You have $1.75 at some machines and also $2.50. So you might, you wouldn't want to go to one that's $2.50 you try to find the cheapest one.

O'REILLY: Do you think -- really seriously do you think somebody is going to walk into a strip club just because they want to get some of their welfare benefits and then walk out? I mean, come on?

MCMILLAN: Well, I'm a former stripper.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 07, 2015, 12:52:42 AM
what's the clash?
i thought we went through this. just to throw a few at the dartboard kinda out of order: Malbin pnei chaveiro (deoraisa on jews, so if girl is a jew and gets embarassed bc u refuse to shake her hand for some strange excuse that sounds hard to believe, its there; presumably also applicable to goyim on some level at the very least); darkei shalom (need to bend our rules all the time in many varian halachos to keep peace with goyim so we dont grow their animosity and lead to danger, and even in us this can have effects, peeps will vote against religious rules (shechita/milah) or israel, putting peeps in danger); basic kavod habriyos is a factor in many halachos so respected people are permitted/excepted from certain rules; deracheha dachei noam (see several places in shas such as gitin 59 (where the gemara says darchei shalom is "deoraisah", and "the whole torah itself is for darchei shalom"), succa 32, yevamos 87); vasisa hatov vehayashar as explained as a positive command by Ramban/similar idea for kedoshim tehiyu, not to be a blind follower of halacha while being uncouth; pirkei avos (not really halachic but important) including r chanina ben dosa, if the spirit of the briyos are pleased by u, hashem is pleased by u. and im sure there is much more i dont have on the top of my head.
when u have a question of what to do in terms of halacha, esp one that affect others, just looking at the book is never enough, our job is to weigh all factors, and when we are nogea bedavar, ask someone knowledgeable and thoughtful enough to look at it from all sides and consider all aspects of torah as they apply to the specific situation. 
I'm assuming at least someone has asked (or wondered in their head) why you suddenly stopped shaving (or trimming, not sure what you usually have). It is also very possible that they have heard of sfira/3 weeks and know that for work, one is allowed to shave. They may know this by looking at other co-workers who are frum and are still clean shaven for example. Do you not think that there is a slight chance that a partner perhaps would get upset at you because you walk into a client's meeting or into court with a messy beard when they know that in reality, you are allowed to shave?

Again, just asking an innocent question because before law school I was working at a big 4 and during the 3 weeks, a non-jew asked me how come I (along with 99% of the other frum accountants at the firm) were allowed to shave but one specific individual wasn't. I was honestly stumped and didn't know how to respond. So again, not attacking at all, and you're of course entitled to do whatever makes you the most comfortable.
I am in a special situation being the only yarmulke at my firm, and there are only a couple other shabbos observers (and old school guy who started at big law in the 70s and a more yct/conservative-side guy who keeps shabbos and some other stuff but no yarmulke). bc i do m&a which has crazy hours (i'm on track for 3000+) and the firm generally bends over to keep me bc im now very valuable, i can get away with a lot and people never seriously mess with me, assuming im on my 58th hour with no sleep.  i'll get  a joke from a partner every once in a while about why i dress/groom worse than most paralegals (this is sad but true), but i usually explain it off that i am just working too hard and at least need to be a bit comfortable/dont have time for grooming.  i then say i'll groom better when i'm partner and have some money and that usually shuts them up :) That said, i am shaving tomorrow morning (dont want to overdo it).

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.
R Zale, not everyone believes what you believe, and both sides have what to rely on. its not helpful to imply that what other peeps are doing is wrong, instead of understanding what their basis is. yarmulke's are a relatively new thing in judaism, and to the extent they were accepted as a minhag yisroel, reasonable exceptions were always there. do u think wearing a yarmulke actually reminds everyone of the creator every minute and makes a tangible difference in their avodas hashem? from a more litvish modox perspective, we wear it now because we have been wearing it, and if rov yisroel stopped wearing it, we would probably stop. even today many extremely frum Sephardim do not wear regularly. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 07, 2015, 01:03:25 AM
It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not.

Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: 12HRS on May 07, 2015, 01:18:37 AM
I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job.

+1

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.

Like I stated earlier, it's one thing if the guy is a Ba'al Teshuva and is working his way UP the ladder, but is just not ready to wear a Yarmulke at work yet. It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not. It's another thing for someone who grew up wearing a Yarmulke their entire life to then take it off because they believe that it might increase their chances to earn more money.

If someone had 100% emunah they wouldn't be working either. the fact that a person is honest with the level he is on is why he asks a shaila.

Oh and just because someone grew up from the age of 3 wearing a kippah in a frum environment where its normal does not mean that he ever got to the level needed to be comfortable wearing a kippah in an office environment.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 01:21:36 AM
If someone had 100% emunah they wouldn't be working either. the fact that a person is honest with the level he is on is why he asks a shaila.

Oh and just because someone grew up from the age of 3 wearing a kippah in a frum environment where its normal does not mean that he ever got to the level needed to be comfortable wearing a kippah in an office environment.
What? ??? Edit your post while you still have time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 07, 2015, 01:58:07 AM
I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: 12HRS on May 07, 2015, 01:59:23 AM
What? ??? Edit your post while you still have time.

why
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yakrot on May 07, 2015, 02:00:03 AM
I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.
Maybe smicha should be necessary in order to earn the right to wear a yarmulka...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: reed on May 07, 2015, 02:09:41 AM
Maybe smicha should be necessary in order to earn the right to wear a yarmulka...

I don't think smichas the answer. More along the lines of a total revamp of the frum education system. But I suppose that's a whole nother thread......
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: JoeCha on May 07, 2015, 02:29:28 AM
It all boils down to the one single question:

Moving for law school?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 07, 2015, 03:04:34 AM
It all boils down to the one single question:

Moving for law school?
After reading the last few pages I would have never guessed that was the question.  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:05:43 AM
i thought we went through this. just to throw a few at the dartboard kinda out of order: Malbin pnei chaveiro (deoraisa on jews, so if girl is a jew and gets embarassed bc u refuse to shake her hand for some strange excuse that sounds hard to believe, its there; presumably also applicable to goyim on some level at the very least); darkei shalom (need to bend our rules all the time in many varian halachos to keep peace with goyim so we dont grow their animosity and lead to danger, and even in us this can have effects, peeps will vote against religious rules (shechita/milah) or israel, putting peeps in danger); basic kavod habriyos is a factor in many halachos so respected people are permitted/excepted from certain rules; deracheha dachei noam (see several places in shas such as gitin 59 (where the gemara says darchei shalom is "deoraisah", and "the whole torah itself is for darchei shalom"), succa 32, yevamos 87); vasisa hatov vehayashar as explained as a positive command by Ramban/similar idea for kedoshim tehiyu, not to be a blind follower of halacha while being uncouth; pirkei avos (not really halachic but important) including r chanina ben dosa, if the spirit of the briyos are pleased by u, hashem is pleased by u. and im sure there is much more i dont have on the top of my head.
Let's take a different scenario for a second, that isn't so contentious, and I actually had yesterday. A co worker is an avid baker, and she offered me, all excited, a piece of something she had baked.
Her, all excited, in front of several others: Want to try a piece of this cake I made, it's really good, and I never made it before
Me: I'd love to, but I'm restricted to kosher. But it looks awesome!
Her, very deflated and confused: but cake doesn't have to be kosher?
Me: Actually it does
Her: well let me tell you what i put in, just...
and so on.
As gracefully as possible I extricated myself and hopefully no lingering hard feelings.
Now, I don't think anyone here would tell me that I should have had a bite, even though:
Malbin pnei chaveiro
darkei shalom
kavod habriyos
deracheah darkei noam
hedoshim tihyu
ruach habrios nocha heyemeno
etc.
And I could make the argument that there wasn't more than an issur derabannan, especially if there were no overtly non kosher ingredients. for gelatin you can be meikel. etc.
Now, on to another case. You're a lawyer in Santa Monica (Silicon Beach) and the office has a informal atmosphere. Your attractive paralegal says good morning by throwing her arms around you and giving you a peck on the cheek. In those circles that would be equivalent to a warm handshake in NY. Same as shaking hands? I think not, even though all the above 'clashes' apply.
Those considerations are considerations that were applied by Chazal in extenuating circumstances, and yes, occasionally even on a deroysa. but if you peruse centuries of responsa they weren't willy nilly applied to every scenario where the argument could be made.
Again, I'm not coming to knock anybody, or say anyone's doing the wrong thing. It's a very difficult call each time. But to say that one who is machmir is wrong is also not right.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:06:01 AM
After reading the last few pages I would have never guessed that was the question.  :)
We'll get there soon :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:07:21 AM
I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.
That's the throw in the towel perspective. IMO the correct thing to do is wear a yarmulka and make a kiddush Hashem. but I must be missing something because I thought that was obvious.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 07, 2015, 03:10:25 AM
We'll get there soon :)
Please don't. I enjoyed your last post. You can really be put into some awkward situations.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 07, 2015, 03:10:53 AM
Your attractive paralegal says good morning by throwing her arms around you and giving you a peck on the cheek.

You're watching too much Suits  ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:11:17 AM
Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.
This is really a whole different sugya. Reb Moshe explains it beautifully in several places (OC 2:40, OC 4:82, OC 1:96) that there is maaris ayin and chashad. there can be maaris ayin even if there is no chashad. If you're interested it's worth going through the sugya.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:12:39 AM
You're watching too much Suits  ;D
:) to be honest, I watched the first few episodes, but then it got too soap opera'ish for me. I don't have patience for that stuff.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:13:09 AM
Please don't. I enjoyed your last post. You can really be put into some awkward situations.
Can you come and do some sensitivity training in my office?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 07, 2015, 03:17:47 AM
Can you come and do some sensitivity training in my office?
I don't think that is the issue. Have them hang out on DDF a few hours each day. They will have a better understanding.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:18:08 AM
What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?
For one, inadvertent vs. purposeful touching (at least I hope so).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ah on May 07, 2015, 03:24:34 AM
Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.
not sure why you took such offense to this statement, MO can mean sooo many different things these days, and I know MANY people, friends and relatives as well who consider themselves MO and do take off their yarmulkas in certain situations (and have grown up with parents doing that as well), work being a big one but not the only one. There are also many MO who wouldn't dream of it. Thats why the title MO has very little meaning without explanation. (modern left, modern right, liberal, or machmir etc.)
Disclaimer: I am not following this thread, and am just commenting on this particular reaction, if I'm missing the context, I apologize .
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 07, 2015, 03:44:48 AM
not sure why you took such offense to this statement, MO can mean sooo many different things these days, and I know MANY people, friends and relatives as well who consider themselves MO and do take off their yarmulkas in certain situations (and have grown up with parents doing that as well), work being a big one but not the only one. There are also many MO who wouldn't dream of it. Thats why the title MO has very little meaning without explanation. (modern left, modern right, liberal, or machmir etc.)
Disclaimer: I am not following this thread, and am just commenting on this particular reaction, if I'm missing the context, I apologize .

I'm aware that there are people that classify themselves as MO that don't always wear their yamulkas. I am also aware that MO encompasses a wide range of people. The reason that I got upset at OP is because he made a blanket statement that was incorrect, degrading, and a clear indicator of his disrespect towards those that don't see eye-to-eye with him. Most of his other posts on the topic gave off the same impression as well. This last one was even worse than the rest, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm all for having this discussion. I find it interesting to hear everyone's take on the matter and their personal experiences, but there's no reason to put people down.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 07, 2015, 05:03:45 AM
Let's take a different scenario for a second, that isn't so contentious, and I actually had yesterday. A co worker is an avid baker, and she offered me, all excited, a piece of something she had baked.
Her, all excited, in front of several others: Want to try a piece of this cake I made, it's really good, and I never made it before
...
Again, I'm not coming to knock anybody, or say anyone's doing the wrong thing. It's a very difficult call each time. But to say that one who is machmir is wrong is also not right.
u make a pretty good point re the baker case, except that there there is no animus assumed, as opposed to the no handshake, which sometimes may lead to more animus (altz mysogeny and/or basic social requirements, dietary restrictions are always more complicated).
- re the hug/kiss paralegal, again, halacha pretty much comes down to cost/benefit analysis (except for the big 3), and kissing/hugging is a real big line that we generally wont give up on. i have had that from my secretary, and i told her i just cant do that and she took it well (because i give her money).

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, im saying after i thought about it and consulted with my swammy, i came out this way and went machmir on what i consider might be a chillul hashem. sorry if i implied otherwise.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 07:10:47 AM
A discussion for another day.

Today!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 07:20:12 AM
Can someone post the definition?
This boils down to the Rebbe's worldview I was alluding to earlier. Parnassah comes from Hashem, the only reason we need to work is because HASHEM told us to (וברכך ה' בכל אדר תעשה, ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך), so the work we do is not what gives is our Parnasah it's just a too (Keli) Hashem uses to give it to us through, sort of life when a tree is chopped down you don't say "look at that axe, it really did a fine job with that one" rather you realize it was the lumberjack who chopped the tree using the axe as a tool.

To say that lowering your spiritual standards will help with your Parnassah is ascribing more importance to the tool than to Hashem.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
This boils down to the Rebbe's worldview I was alluding to earlier. Parnassah comes from Hashem, the only reason we need to work is because HASHEM told us to (וברכך ה' בכל אדר תעשה, ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך), so the work we do is not what gives is our Parnasah it's just a too (Keli) Hashem uses to give it to us through, sort of life when a tree is chopped down you don't say "look at that axe, it really did a fine job with that one" rather you realize it was the lumberjack who chopped the tree using the axe as a tool.

To say that lowering your spiritual standards will help with your Parnassah is ascribing more importance to the tool than to Hashem.

Thanks. So you are using "anti keli" to describe a theory inconsistent with the rebbe's?

(Also, I like that approach)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on May 07, 2015, 07:50:04 AM
You can tell that most of the people on this thread are lawyers. Only a brief break in activity, between the hours of 3am and 5am.  :-\
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 07:59:48 AM
Thanks. So you are using "anti keli" to describe a theory inconsistent with the rebbe's?

(Also, I like that approach)
i didn't use anti-keli, what I'm assuming Dan meant is something that can take away from your Parnassah (a Keli is a tool used to give someone Parnassah, an anti-Keli would be a wrench that gets stuck in the way).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 08:59:39 AM
u make a pretty good point re the baker case, except that there there is no animus assumed, as opposed to the no handshake, which sometimes may lead to more animus (altz mysogeny and/or basic social requirements, dietary restrictions are always more complicated).
- re the hug/kiss paralegal, again, halacha pretty much comes down to cost/benefit analysis (except for the big 3), and kissing/hugging is a real big line that we generally wont give up on. i have had that from my secretary, and i told her i just cant do that and she took it well (because i give her money).

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, im saying after i thought about it and consulted with my swammy, i came out this way and went machmir on what i consider might be a chillul hashem. sorry if i implied otherwise.
Points granted.
But perhaps your secretary would have understood even if she wasn't your secretary and even if it was just a handshake? Just throwing it out there,  obviously I have no idea.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: aygart on May 07, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
What is anti keli
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 09:45:50 AM
What is anti keli
i didn't use anti-keli, what I'm assuming Dan meant is something that can take away from your Parnassah (a Keli is a tool used to give someone Parnassah, an anti-Keli would be a wrench that gets stuck in the way).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on May 07, 2015, 09:46:54 AM
What is anti keli
It was explained by achas a bit.

A keli is something we do to form a vessel for G-ds blessing. Such as doing his mitzvos getting a job etc.

So an anti keli would be not looking for work if you are unemployed, or eating treif etc.

What Dan implied was taking off ones yalmuka would probably also be an anti keli, meaning doing not what hashem wants, but in this case people are saying that taking off the yalmuka gives more parnasa, so this apparent anti keli is actually a keli for more money...

Now the question is what else falls into this category, if we eat our co-workers or boss's cupcake do we also make more money, and therefore it is allowed according to halacha...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 07, 2015, 09:51:16 AM
Now the question is what else falls into this category, if we eat our co-workers or boss's cupcake do we also make more money, and therefore it is allowed according to halacha...
Are you being serious?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 09:55:48 AM
Are you being serious?
He is taking the argument that you can take your Kippah off for business a bit further.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 07, 2015, 09:57:44 AM
He is taking the argument that you can take your Kippah off for business a bit further.
He sure did.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 07, 2015, 10:39:34 AM
Disagree. I'm simply raising the bar.  If you see a guy with a yarlmuke in Legal Sea Food with 2 other lawyers, 99 times out of 100 he's not eating treif.  If you see a guy in a yarlmuke sitting alone eating a big plate of ribs at an out of the way Texas BBQ, 99 times out of 100 he's eating treif.

Who cares what things you do specifically for what purposes--the main question is what the percentages are, and what normal people watching you will assume.
Is that really the question? Is that something you've come to from learning the sugya in depth? /sarcasm
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 10:41:14 AM
Is that really the question? Is that something you've come to from learning the sugya in depth? /sarcasm

Fair point, I'm talking from my boich.

But my boich is having trouble understanding any other definition. And the "remove the yarlmuke" definition seems as arbitrary as a "remove the factor most having to do with the color green" definition.



Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 07, 2015, 10:43:15 AM
Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.

Must've hit a raw nerve there. It's alright, I'll excuse you for your lack of comprehension due to the late hour of your post.

Nowhere did I state that ALL people who grow up in MO homes sometimes don't wear Yarmulkes. I stated that SOME people from MO homes sometimes don't wear Yarmulkes. That is a FACT. I know plenty of MO families like this, including some relatives. It's too bad that this FACT hurts your feelings. (Not sure why it does though.)

Everyone on this thread has a right to their opinion, something which you clearly don't believe in. You want to state your opinion, but you refuse to hear the opinion of others. There are those that are arguing that a man should take off his Yarmulke at work, and that there is a Heter for this, and I am arguing that for someone who grew up in a Heimishe household, that Heter might have a technical basis, but is still Prikas Ol nontheless.


Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 07, 2015, 10:45:33 AM
Are you being serious?
No.
It was a reductio ad absurdum
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 07, 2015, 10:54:46 AM
u make a pretty good point re the baker case, except that there there is no animus assumed, as opposed to the no handshake, which sometimes may lead to more animus (altz mysogeny and/or basic social requirements, dietary restrictions are always more complicated).
- re the hug/kiss paralegal, again, halacha pretty much comes down to cost/benefit analysis (except for the big 3), and kissing/hugging is a real big line that we generally wont give up on. i have had that from my secretary, and i told her i just cant do that and she took it well (because i give her money).

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, im saying after i thought about it and consulted with my swammy, i came out this way and went machmir on what i consider might be a chillul hashem. sorry if i implied otherwise.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you've yet to give a coherent explanation of why it would be a chillul Hashem - in the context of how it's defined in halacha. When you spoke it over with your Rov, he told you one of the reasons to be matir was because of chillul Hashem? I'd be shocked if the answer was yes, and even more interested in a source if you can get one.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on May 07, 2015, 11:05:05 AM
Let's take a different scenario for a second, that isn't so contentious, and I actually had yesterday. A co worker is an avid baker, and she offered me, all excited, a piece of something she had baked.
Her, all excited, in front of several others: Want to try a piece of this cake I made, it's really good, and I never made it before
Me: I'd love to, but I'm restricted to kosher. But it looks awesome!
Her, very deflated and confused: but cake doesn't have to be kosher?
Me: Actually it does
Her: well let me tell you what i put in, just...
and so on.
As gracefully as possible I extricated myself and hopefully no lingering hard feelings.
Now, I don't think anyone here would tell me that I should have had a bite, even though:
Malbin pnei chaveiro
darkei shalom
kavod habriyos
deracheah darkei noam
hedoshim tihyu
ruach habrios nocha heyemeno
etc.
And I could make the argument that there wasn't more than an issur derabannan, especially if there were no overtly non kosher ingredients. for gelatin you can be meikel. etc.
Now, on to another case. You're a lawyer in Santa Monica (Silicon Beach) and the office has a informal atmosphere. Your attractive paralegal says good morning by throwing her arms around you and giving you a peck on the cheek. In those circles that would be equivalent to a warm handshake in NY. Same as shaking hands? I think not, even though all the above 'clashes' apply.
Those considerations are considerations that were applied by Chazal in extenuating circumstances, and yes, occasionally even on a deroysa. but if you peruse centuries of responsa they weren't willy nilly applied to every scenario where the argument could be made.
Again, I'm not coming to knock anybody, or say anyone's doing the wrong thing. It's a very difficult call each time. But to say that one who is machmir is wrong is also not right.
I had a similar situation (not as bad)  and I asked the coworker for the recipe
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on May 07, 2015, 11:52:33 AM
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you've yet to give a coherent explanation of why it would be a chillul Hashem - in the context of how it's defined in halacha. When you spoke it over with your Rov, he told you one of the reasons to be matir was because of chillul Hashem? I'd be shocked if the answer was yes, and even more interested in a source if you can get one.
better to beat a dead horse than a live one (that would be a bigger chillul hashem). No iirc my rebbe did not say it would cause chillul hashem, but this was one of the factors i laid out in my considerations on the point. Again, we all have very different streams of orthodoxy going on here, and i know growing up in a more charedi-ish environment i was always told chillul hashem is only among jews and is essentially an add on to aveiros done in public. but there is a lot more there (see e.g. Rambam quoted nicely here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/33866/is-it-ever-a-chillul-hashem-to-discuss-torah-principles)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 11:53:27 AM
Re: the "anti-keli" (took me a while to figure out what the heck that means!) it is helpful to learn the maamar in Derech Mitzvosecha of the Tzemach Tzedek entitled "Taglachas HaMetzora." There it speaks about the difference between effort that is bonafide hishtadlus and effort that actual gets in the way.

If anyone would like to learn that maamar, please as Achas v'Achas.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on May 07, 2015, 12:16:23 PM
Must've hit a raw nerve there. It's alright, I'll excuse you for your lack of comprehension due to the late hour of your post.

There are two ways to understand your initial post.  I also thought you meant that it's standard in MO homes to not wear a yarmulke all the time.  Reading comprehension isn't the issue; descriptive writing is.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 07, 2015, 12:46:36 PM
better to beat a dead horse than a live one (that would be a bigger chillul hashem). No iirc my rebbe did not say it would cause chillul hashem, but this was one of the factors i laid out in my considerations on the point. Again, we all have very different streams of orthodoxy going on here, and i know growing up in a more charedi-ish environment i was always told chillul hashem is only among jews and is essentially an add on to aveiros done in public. but there is a lot more there (see e.g. Rambam quoted nicely here: http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/33866/is-it-ever-a-chillul-hashem-to-discuss-torah-principles)
It seems clear to me that the discussion of whether something is a chillul Hashem or not can only be had once you know whether an action is a mitzvah, an aveirah, or a 'mundane' action. If you disagree, once again, I'd love to see a source. Your link seems to agree with my approach. (The Rambam lists mundane actions, that are neither mitzvos nor aveiros. His point is that it's not just aveiros that can be a chillul Hashem - it can even be non-mitzvos.)

If that fact has been established, then you can't say "I decided to be meikel partially due to the issue of chillul Hashem", because it's only even a possibility of an issue once you pasken that it's muttar, and therefore a 'mundane' action.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 07, 2015, 12:50:31 PM
There are two ways to understand your initial post.  I also thought you meant that it's standard in MO homes to not wear a yarmulke all the time.  Reading comprehension isn't the issue; descriptive writing is.
I think your reading of his comment requires inserting a comma that wasn't there:
...It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family, where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not.
(In case it's hard to see, the comma would be inserted after 'family'. That would cause the second half of the sentence to be descriptive of the term 'MO family' instead of being descriptive of the specific family the person grew up in.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 12:57:25 PM
I think your reading of his comment requires inserting a comma that wasn't there:(In case it's hard to see, the comma would be inserted after 'family'. That would cause the second half of the sentence to be descriptive of the term 'MO family' instead of being descriptive of the specific family the person grew up in.)

Which is why you should use "that" and "which", instead of "where"

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 07, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Which is why you should use "that" and "which", instead of "where"
Lol, I didn't do either, and I agree. But it's hard to argue that the reading that should require a comma is more appropriate for the sentence as written.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 07, 2015, 01:25:13 PM
Lol, I didn't do either, and I agree. But it's hard to argue that the reading that should require a comma is more appropriate for the sentence as written.
If you're interpretation is correct than the 'MO' part of the sentence is completely unnecessary. It should say
...It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: mb1 on May 07, 2015, 03:43:58 PM
If you're interpretation is correct than the 'MO' part of the sentence is completely unnecessary. It should say
Unless he was implying that........
  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2015, 03:48:29 PM
Re: the "anti-keli" (took me a while to figure out what the heck that means!) it is helpful to learn the maamar in Derech Mitzvosecha of the Tzemach Tzedek entitled "Taglachas HaMetzora." There it speaks about the difference between effort that is bonafide hishtadlus and effort that actual gets in the way.

If anyone would like to learn that maamar, please as Achas v'Achas.
Didn't realize "Anti-Keli" was that tief.
Time to relearn Kuntres U'mayon?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 03:53:13 PM
Didn't realize "Anti-Keli" was that tief.
Time to relearn Kuntres U'mayon?

Yes, Kuntres U'mayon is one source. Taglachas HaMetzora is really the main source. The vort there of the TZ"TZ that is brought many times by the Rebbe is about a garment that is so long that you trip over it.

Maybe we should start a Kuntres U'mayon shiur in Youngstown, you know, convenient location for everyone.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 03:54:00 PM
Didn't realize "Anti-Keli" was that tief.
Time to relearn Kuntres U'mayon?

I'm utterly confused about it at this point.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:54:23 PM
Didn't realize "Anti-Keli" was that tief.
Time to relearn Kuntres U'mayon?
Have some rachmonus on those who didn't grow up with the same verbiage as you :)
I'd like to learn the maamar, can I handle it on my own? where can I find it?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 07, 2015, 03:54:29 PM
Yes, Kuntres U'mayon is one source. Taglachas HaMetzora is really the main source. The vort there of the TZ"TZ that is brought many times by the Rebbe is about a garment that is so long that you trip over it.

Maybe we should start a Kuntres U'mayon shiur in Youngstown, you know, convenient location for everyone.

Youngstown DO?

I'm out.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 03:56:23 PM
Maybe we should start a Kuntres U'mayon shiur in Youngstown, you know, convenient location for everyone.
Is there more water than CLE? Dan is still melting snow to get his. http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=18685.msg1137673#msg1137673 (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=18685.msg1137673#msg1137673)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 03:57:48 PM
Have some rachmonus on those who didn't grow up with the same verbiage as you :)
I'd like to learn the maamar, can I handle it on my own? where can I find it?
It's more than just a Maamar, it's a whole Kuntres.

http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Folly-Chasidic-Treatise-Heritage/dp/0826607438
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dr Moose on May 07, 2015, 03:58:46 PM
Youngstown DO?

I'm out.
lol
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2015, 04:11:50 PM
Have some rachmonus on those who didn't grow up with the same verbiage as you :)
I'd like to learn the maamar, can I handle it on my own? where can I find it?
Anti-keli is my own invented term..

But basically on RH/YK it's decided how much you'll earn, how healthy you'll be, etc. But that's stuck in the higher realms of the world (Atzilus, etc)

On every day we draw down a portion of that koach into poel (from Atzilus into asiya gashmi) through keilim, by being a good jew, davening, mitzvos, having a job that lets you serve hashem, etc.

By not being a good jew that koach remains stuck above.  Or if one has a fixed income it can still be affected negatively (catastrophic event) or positively.

I just find it immensely ironic that one can believe in a Gd that runs every aspect of the world and yet believe that wearing a yarmulkah to work could fall into the same "anti-keli" category as not putting on tefilin for a day, something that severs the bonds you and your creator.

Hence, why stop there? Let's make other holy things or halachos into anti-kelis while we're at it...
Can we get a full list of halachos in shulchan aruch that are anti-kelis?

Shaking hands.
Yarmulkas.
Not shaving.

Keeping kosher?
Don't forget Shabbos.
May as well sleep with the woman recruiters like the non-frum guys do.
What about sleeping with the male recruiter? That will score you even more points with the firm...

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
Anti-keli is my own invented term..

But basically on RH/YK it's decided how much you'll earn, how healthy you'll be, etc. But that's stuck in the higher realms of the world (Atzilus, etc)

On every day we draw down a portion of that koach into poel (from Atzilus into asiya gashmi) through keilim, by being a good jew, davening, mitzvos, having a job that lets you serve hashem, etc.

By not being a good jew that koach remains stuck above.  Or if one has a fixed income it can still be affected negatively (catastrophic event) or positively.

I just find it immensely ironic that one can believe in a Gd that runs every aspect of the world and yet believe that wearing a yarmulkah to work could fall into the same "anti-keli" category as not putting on tefilin for a day, something that severs the bonds you and your creator.

Hence, why stop there? Let's make other holy things or halachos into anti-kelis while we're at it...

I understand. Wasn't familiar with keilm being used this way. So in truth putting on tefillin is a keli, talking lashon hara would be an anti keli, right?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 07, 2015, 04:28:41 PM
It's more than just a Maamar, it's a whole Kuntres.

http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Folly-Chasidic-Treatise-Heritage/dp/0826607438 (http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Folly-Chasidic-Treatise-Heritage/dp/0826607438)
thanks. I meant Freddie's 
Quote
Taglachas HaMetzora is really the main source. The vort there of the TZ"TZ that is brought many times by the Rebbe is about a garment that is so long that you trip over it
.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 07, 2015, 05:00:12 PM
thanks. I meant Freddie's  .

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=218
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 11:03:27 PM
thanks. I meant Freddie's  .
I actually never learned that one. Chavrusah DO? :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2015, 11:05:26 PM
I actually never learned that one. Chavrusah DO? :)
shiur in Youngstown, you know, convenient location for everyone.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 11:08:38 PM

Everyone as in CLE and PIT? :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 07, 2015, 11:12:12 PM
Everyone as in CLE and PIT? :P
People live in other places?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 07, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
Would like to join as well, can we set up some sort of group call?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 07, 2015, 11:22:17 PM
People live in other places?
I hear there's a small Jewish community in the NYC area...

Would like to join as well, can we set up some sort of group call?
If someone arranges the technicalities I would love to join.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on May 08, 2015, 12:04:21 AM
I hear there's a small Jewish community in the NYC area...
Wild. Al taam v'reiach...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 08, 2015, 12:06:21 AM
I hear there's a small Jewish community in the NYC area...
 If someone arranges the technicalities I would love to join.

I'll be happy to arrange it if someone can direct me to a good (cheap-read:free) conference service, otherwise I may have a friend who can direct me but it'll take a while to get that info
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 08, 2015, 12:06:57 AM
What about that Ohel for shabbos trip that gets talked about every once in a while?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 08, 2015, 02:22:09 AM



 If someone arranges the technicalities I would love to join.
+1

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 08, 2015, 06:50:45 AM
I'll be happy to arrange it if someone can direct me to a good (cheap-read:free) conference service, otherwise I may have a friend who can direct me but it'll take a while to get that info
What's wrong with Hangouts?

What about that Ohel for shabbos trip that gets talked about every once in a while?
3 Tammuz is Shabbos this year. Unless you mean a quiet Shabbos when we can arrange a Shabbaton DO..
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 08, 2015, 06:52:19 AM

What's wrong with Hangouts?
3 Tammuz is Shabbos this year...
Dunno didn't of it, I'll see if it's viable when I'm at a computer next... Unless you can tell me it's nogeh
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 08, 2015, 07:57:33 AM
3 Tammuz is Shabbos this year. Unless you mean a quiet Shabbos when we can arrange a Shabbaton DO..

Yes, the latter.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 08, 2015, 09:11:15 AM
Yes, the latter.
To be honest, I don't feel the Ohel is an appropriate place for a DO...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 08, 2015, 09:23:03 AM
To be honest, I don't feel the Ohel is an appropriate place for a DO...
Wouldn't that depend on the reason for the DO?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 08, 2015, 09:27:47 AM

Wouldn't that depend on the reason for the DO?
Based on how moshebatchy just described a DO which I cannot link do to being on my phone I would say the reason wouldn't be appropriate
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 08, 2015, 09:44:25 AM
Based on how moshebatchy just described a DO which I cannot link do to being on my phone I would say the reason wouldn't be appropriate
Wow! How did that thread miss the PC master thread?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 08, 2015, 09:47:02 AM

Wow! How did that thread miss the PC master thread?
Actually not sure, I apologize for my part in that.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 08, 2015, 10:31:57 AM
Wild. Al taam v'reiach...

Hi from NYC. A lot of Reiach, not so much Ta'am...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Freddie on May 08, 2015, 11:20:50 AM
Hi from NYC. A lot of Reiach, not so much Ta'am...
Wow. That's an awesome slogan for NY.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 08, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
What d'you think of wearing white shirts black pants every day in a business casual office?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitzf on May 08, 2015, 12:42:22 PM
What d'you think of wearing white shirts black pants every day in a business casual office?
I know someone who got harassed about it by his coworkers and its really hard to explain because any way you slice it, it's not a religious thing (i.e. if the community wore green shirts and purple pants then that would be the custom).

The way I see it, black and white is more a simon than a siba.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: zale on May 08, 2015, 12:43:42 PM
What d'you think of wearing white shirts black pants every day in a business casual office?

Dressing formal in a casual office environment is usually considered socially acceptable. The other way around is usually not..

Worst case scenario, coworkers might get the impression that you are too serious or too stiff.

Side point: Notice how all the top guys at Apple dress casual. Kind of a way of saying "we are just like you, little minions".
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on May 08, 2015, 12:51:02 PM
Side point: Notice how all the top guys at Apple dress casual. Kind of a way of saying "we are just like you, little minions".
Or that that is the standard at tech companies
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 08, 2015, 12:58:24 PM
The way I see it, black and white is more a simon than a siba.

I like to say it's cultural, not religious. i.e. identifying with a certain group.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on May 08, 2015, 01:00:38 PM
It isn't really more formal as much as just a bit unusual. No different to coworkers than if you worke grey pants and a light blue shirt every single day.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitzf on May 08, 2015, 01:24:04 PM
I like to say it's cultural, not religious. i.e. identifying with a certain group.
That does take away some of the animus associated with feelings of religious inferiority (IMHO people that are confident on their beliefs [whatever religion or otherwise] don't feel threatened by outward displays of religion) , however it doesn't really make it more understandable.

ETA: to be clear, I don't mean that most people that look at us weird are feeling religiously inferior, rather they just are curious or think we are weird and therefore making it a cultural thing won't help much. The only gain is those who are antagonistic...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS1 on May 08, 2015, 03:32:06 PM
What d'you think of wearing white shirts black pants every day in a business casual office?

you can add yourself to the genius CEOs who wear the same item every day for this reason that Mark Zuckerbarg said:
"“I really want to clear my life to make it so that I have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best serve the community."
Link: http://qz.com/292993/why-mark-zuckerberg-wears-the-same-teeshirt-every-day/  Article says, " Without distractions, workers can better focus on work."
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: 12HRS on May 08, 2015, 03:40:09 PM
another reason your'e not shtark unless you're a pengiun.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on May 10, 2015, 12:55:54 AM
It isn't really more formal as much as just a bit unusual. No different to coworkers than if you worke grey pants and a light blue shirt every single day.
Don't think that is true. White and black. Stands out more
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on May 11, 2015, 07:42:13 AM
Didn't realize "Anti-Keli" was that tief.
Time to relearn Kuntres U'mayon?

Yes, Kuntres U'mayon is one source. Taglachas HaMetzora is really the main source. The vort there of the TZ"TZ that is brought many times by the Rebbe is about a garment that is so long that you trip over it.

Maybe we should start a Kuntres U'mayon shiur in Youngstown, you know, convenient location for everyone.

I actually never learned that one. Chavrusah DO? :)

+1


BUMP ,
can we make this happen?

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=218
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 19, 2015, 09:40:15 AM
For those living in the 5 towns (or who will be there for Shavuos) I just got the following in my email, it seems like it touches on some of the topics discussed in this thread:
Quote
From Fruit Salads to Friday Flights-  “Jew in the Workplace:  Food and Travel Edition”
 
Can I eat the office’s fruit salad?
Should I wear my yarmulka at a non kosher restaurant?
What is the story about flying on Fridays?
And...Who unwrapped my double foiled lunch?

These are some of the everyday questions that Orthodox Jews confront in the workplace. On Leil Shavuot, the Young Israel of Woodmere, in partnership with YUConnects,  is running a special program geared especially for young single professionals embarking on their career - as well as interested college and graduate students.
 
Back by popular demand after last year’s successful “Jew in the Workplace” Shavuos lectures, the Motzei Shabbat program on May 23rd will begin at  11:45 pm with an interactive symposium.  Participants can ask “food and travel” related questions to the noted panelists: Rabbi Shalom Axelrod and Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt from the Young Israel of Woodmere and Rabbi Dov Schreier of the Orthodox Union.  Mr. Shalom Hammer will moderate the hour long session.  After a refreshment break and an opportunity to mix with friends, there will be another 45 minute session on Tefillat HaDerech beginning at 1:15, given by Rabbi Axelrod.  These activities will take place next door to the Young Israel of Woodmere, at the “nusach sefard” house on Peninsula Blvd.
 
This Shavuos, head to Young Israel of Woodmere for the most interesting (late) night of the year for young professionals.  If you have questions, or want to send YOUR questions for the panelists, please email mglatt@yu.edu or call 516-603-8141.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on May 22, 2015, 08:26:02 PM
germane: http://www.dinonline.org/2015/05/14/laws-of-the-kippa/
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Moishebatchy on August 03, 2015, 09:50:48 PM
Based on how moshebatchy just described a DO which I cannot link do to being on my phone I would say the reason wouldn't be appropriate

Hmmmmm... where/when did this one happen?  ???
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yitrap on August 03, 2015, 10:19:26 PM
Hmmmmm... where/when did this one happen?  ???
Can't find it now on my phone again. I'll try finding it later tonight.
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: jj1000 on August 10, 2015, 11:36:48 AM
So Penn is now higher ranked than Yale. Cool.

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law-school-rankings/
Title: Re: Law School
Post by: solls108 on August 12, 2015, 07:19:03 PM
So Penn is now higher ranked than Yale. Cool.

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2015-law-school-rankings/
Shouldve stayed?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on September 25, 2015, 05:52:58 PM
With just over a week left until my LSAT figured I'd drop by again. For those who don't want to put in the crazy hours working in corporate law requires, are there any alternatives that still pay reasonably well with reasonable hours?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on September 25, 2015, 06:15:26 PM
With just over a week left until my LSAT figured I'd drop by again. For those who don't want to put in the crazy hours working in corporate law requires, are there any alternatives that still pay reasonably well with reasonable hours?

Even if you're not interested in the crazy hours, I would at least try to suck it up for 2-3 years so that you get a good firm on your resume and then you should be able to get a solid in-house gig.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 09:39:33 AM
With just over a week left until my LSAT figured I'd drop by again. For those who don't want to put in the crazy hours working in corporate law requires, are there any alternatives that still pay reasonably well with reasonable hours?

Why are you going to law school?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on September 27, 2015, 09:44:20 AM

Why are you going to law school?
First admissions is usually mid-december.

Unless you meant now that he has his LSAT score he can know where he'll get into...

@PreLaw tax law could have good hours supposedly.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 11:04:25 AM
First admissions is usually mid-december.

Unless you meant now that he has his LSAT score he can know where he'll get into...

@PreLaw tax law could have good hours supposedly.

I think he meant why does PreLaw want to go to law school to begin with?  To make money?  He enjoys the law?  To help people?

And to answer PL's question, I think a lot depends on what you consider "reasonable;" both in terms of salary and hours.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on September 27, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
You're right. I read the word where for some reason.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 12:14:27 PM
I think he meant why does PreLaw want to go to law school to begin with?  To make money?  He enjoys the law?  To help people?
Bingo. I assume it's the former (CMIIW). If that's what you want, you need to put in the time. Just the way it goes. Otherwise look for another profession
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 12:34:53 PM
Bingo. I assume it's the former (CMIIW). If that's what you want, you need to put in the time. Just the way it goes. Otherwise look for another profession

Or get really, really lucky like some of us who hung up a shingle upon graduating. You can't do it without a ton of work outside of school during your school years, some serious networking, and - of course - the aforementioned luck.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 01:43:51 PM
What are the odds of that actually happening .01%? Less? Don't present it as a viable option.

End at kind of law do you practice? What are your hours?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
A few Lakewood guys who went to "law school" hung up a shingle and seem to be busy.. Real estate, small businesses etc. I believe they bill $200+ hour . with minimal overhead or staff.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 02:30:31 PM
What are the odds of that actually happening .01%? Less? Don't present it as a viable option.

End at kind of law do you practice? What are your hours?

That's the NY/DC attitude where everyone is going to law school to become a big law or corporate attorney. I would say the chances are closer to 3-5%, especially if you're out of those two metro areas.

I have a real estate and collections firm. And my hours vary by the season.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 02:32:13 PM
Vary between?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 02:36:55 PM
I'm a tax lawyer at a big firm. My deaprtment works on average more than the rest of the firm. However, our hours are steadier. So instead of having 30 hour weeks and 80 hour weeks, my weeks are almost always between 45 and 60. 

For those of you not in large firms, multiply that by at least 1.25 to get my real hours worked.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 02:41:08 PM
3 months I work 80+
5 months I work ~55
4 months I work 15-30, but I deal with personal projects during those slow periods.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 02:42:34 PM
I'm a tax lawyer at a big firm. My deaprtment works on average more than the rest of the firm. However, our hours are steadier. So instead of having 30 hour weeks and 80 hour weeks, my weeks are almost always between 45 and 60. 

For those of you not in large firms, multiply that by at least 1.25 to get my real hours worked.

So you work like 6 days a week 10-10?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 02:44:16 PM
3 months I work 80+
5 months I work ~55
4 months I work 15-30, but I deal with personal projects during those slow periods.
, are there any alternatives that still pay reasonably well with reasonable hours?
LOL
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 02:49:36 PM
There's a huge difference though. The more I work, the more money I make. Its not going to the firm. And I could always turn down more work and go easier. But I'm greedy.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 02:59:31 PM
I'm at desk at a few mins past 8.  I leave at 7, drive home, eat dinner with family, play with kid for a few mins, then go back to work from home.  Typically work another couple hours from home. Rarely work past 12.  Usually don't do much on weekends except respond to emails, but every several weeks do substantive work on Sunday also.

My friends in M&A, or finance, have much different work flow.  They have 4AM nights, then come in at 12, then 4 AM again three days in a row, then don't work for a few days, etc.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 02:59:58 PM
There's a huge difference though. The more I work, the more money I make. Its not going to the firm. And I could always turn down more work and go easier. But I'm greedy.

How'd you get to where you are? 

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 03:07:55 PM
How'd you get to where you are?


Or get really, really lucky like some of us who hung up a shingle upon graduating. You can't do it without a ton of work outside of school during your school years, some serious networking, and - of course - the aforementioned luck.

Once I knew I would burn out in big law I focused on getting educational jobs and externship as opposed to in-school extra-curriculars, like journal or moot court.
I worked for one small firm during 2L and 3L and learned a ton, made loads of connections, and really got set up pretty well.
My grades definitely suffered during those years but I really didn't care.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 03:12:00 PM

Once I knew I would burn out in big law I focused on getting educational jobs and externship as opposed to in-school extra-curriculars, like journal or moot court.
I worked for one small firm during 2L and 3L and learned a ton, made loads of connections, and really got set up pretty well.
My grades definitely suffered during those years but I really didn't care.

harbei asu kein v'lo olsoh b'yadam

I'd say "working for a small firm and making loads of connections" is a worse bet of succeeding than biglaw.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 03:15:11 PM
harbei asu kein v'lo olsoh b'yadam

I'd say "working for a small firm and making loads of connections" is a worse bet of succeeding than biglaw.

I'm not sure I disagree, but I don't think it's much worse. Especially if one isn't cut out for big law. What percentage of law school grads are making it to big law anyway? 

And I'm nothing special, I'm just a normal guy who had a different plan. Ask your brother, he's my neighbor.  I have other classmates that have been successful on their own in various other fields as well.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on September 27, 2015, 03:16:37 PM
I'm at desk at a few mins past 8.  I leave at 7, drive home, eat dinner with family, play with kid for a few mins, then go back to work from home.  Typically work another couple hours from home. Rarely work past 12.  Usually don't do much on weekends except respond to emails, but every several weeks do substantive work on Sunday also.

My friends in M&A, or finance, have much different work flow.  They have 4AM nights, then come in at 12, then 4 AM again three days in a row, then don't work for a few days, etc.

Whenever I see schedules like this I'm thankful for government work. 8-4 Monday-Friday, paid overtime, and supervisors who won't dare talk to me during the lunch hour.

OTOH, pay.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 03:19:18 PM

OTOH, pay.

Right.  Not to say I'd never end up where you are. But I owe tons of money,and I'd like to buy a house at some point before tuition kills me.

And on a longer term level, I just don't want to feel like a schlepper every year to the tuition committee. 

Also--commute. My commute is 20 mins--that makes it all a lot more manageable.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 03:29:18 PM
I'm at desk at a few mins past 8.  I leave at 7, drive home, eat dinner with family, play with kid for a few mins, then go back to work from home.  Typically work another couple hours from home. Rarely work past 12.  Usually don't do much on weekends except respond to emails, but every several weeks do substantive work on Sunday also.

My friends in M&A, or finance, have much different work flow.  They have 4AM nights, then come in at 12, then 4 AM again three days in a row, then don't work for a few days, etc.
Don't know how u do this. I have to do those hours only 3-4 months a year and can't imagine doing it more than 2-3 years.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 03:31:01 PM
Don't know how u do this. I have to do those hours only 3-4 months a year and can't imagine doing it more than 2-3 years.

Golden handcuffs yo.  Where else can  you make the same money, without putting down any capital, or taking any real entrepreneurial risk?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 03:34:19 PM
Marry into money?  :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 03:34:30 PM
Golden handcuffs yo.  Where else can  you make the same money, without putting down any capital, or taking any real entrepreneurial risk?
Yeah, I guess if they actually paid me a living wage I would have a different outlook..
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 03:36:47 PM
Yeah, I guess if they actually paid me a living wage I would have a different outlook..

You an accountant? I always feel bad for big firm accountants, who often work the same hours we do, for a third the pay.

OTOH, they usually aren't walking in with 100-200k debt.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 03:42:37 PM
You an accountant? I always feel bad for big firm accountants, who often work the same hours we do, for a third the pay.

OTOH, they usually aren't walking in with 100-200k debt.
Yeah. Zero debt. 945-5:30 ish 8 months year. 65+hr weeks the rest.
Salary just about covers the commute and the dry cleaners bill.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 03:44:10 PM

Salary just about covers the commute and the dry cleaners bill.

Business casual firm FTW.  I wear the same clothes I wore in yeshiva. And law school.  A few of my shirts are actually literally still from yeshiva. 

You should move up to BOS. Housing prices are  a real issue, but you can't beat the commute.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 04:25:41 PM
Learn to code
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 27, 2015, 04:31:54 PM
Learn to code
+1. Starting salery can be up to $85k
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 04:51:42 PM
+1. Starting salery can be up to $85k
And maximum earning potential caps out at 125?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 04:53:54 PM
You can definitely do better than that.
Don't get me wrong. No one will confuse you for a high powered lawyer. But, you can do pretty well for yourself. And actually have time to learn/see your family
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 27, 2015, 04:57:33 PM
And maximum earning potential caps out at 125?
No. Go private. Side jobs. Many ways to go big, open a small company, Make apps...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on September 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
Business casual firm FTW.  I wear the same clothes I wore in yeshiva. And law school.  A few of my shirts are actually literally still from yeshiva. 

You should move up to BOS. Housing prices are  a real issue, but you can't beat the commute.
Plenty of places have short commutes and far more affordable housing.
What's so great about BOS?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 27, 2015, 05:06:10 PM
No. Go private. Side jobs. Many ways to go big, open a small company, Make apps...
Now you're talking entrepreneurship. -obviously tye sky is the limit.

I'm talking about getting paid for time.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 27, 2015, 05:13:54 PM
Now you're talking entrepreneurship. -obviously tye sky is the limit.

I'm talking about getting paid for time.
The best thing about codinfis that your never stuck to one thing. There is unlimited amout of freelance, and an unlimited amout of work to be done if you use your mind and imagination. You can make anything from an app to a modified pos system. All other jobs dont have it close to as easy to go off and do what you want, and not worry to much about getting a new job or jobs...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 27, 2015, 05:27:46 PM
Plenty of places have short commutes and far more affordable housing.
What's so great about BOS?
Difference with Boston is it's a real business center. Nothing like CLE or HOU can compare to
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 05:38:12 PM
Difference with Boston is it's a real business center. Nothing like CLE or HOU can compare to

Yes.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 05:39:21 PM
But it's cold...

And what's the average cost for a house in the frum areas?  Property tax rate?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on September 27, 2015, 05:41:23 PM
Meh, plenty of big law guys here, and they're a whole lot better off than the BOS/NYC guys are.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on September 27, 2015, 05:51:39 PM

Why are you going to law school?

It appeals to me intellectually and is a way to make an income. I'm not interested in working 14 hours a day to make a mega salary that I have no time to enjoy. Would happily accept a smaller salary with fewer hours.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on September 27, 2015, 05:54:47 PM
Whenever I see schedules like this I'm thankful for government work. 8-4 Monday-Friday, paid overtime, and supervisors who won't dare talk to me during the lunch hour.

OTOH, pay.

How typical is that schedule for government lawyers? Are there generally jobs available for these positions, and can you give me an idea of pay range?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 05:57:32 PM
How typical is that schedule for government lawyers? Are there generally jobs available for these positions, and can you give me an idea of pay range?

Come down to Baltimore.  Half the attorneys here were for the government.  We have the main offices for CMS, SS, etc., plus the typical criminal and municipal public sectors.  Jobs seem to start in the 60s but jump pretty quickly to 90s+.

It's not 160 but the hours are much better.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 05:58:36 PM
Meh, plenty of big law guys here, and they're a whole lot better off than the BOS/NYC guys are.

Common wisdom is there's a big difference between working in a primary market as opposed to a secondary market.  Not sure I know the difference, but curious what others will say.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 27, 2015, 06:11:32 PM
Come down to Baltimore.  Half the attorneys here were for the government.  We have the main offices for CMS, SS, etc., plus the typical criminal and municipal public sectors.  Jobs seem to start in the 60s but jump pretty quickly to 90s+.

It's not 160 but the hours are much better.

90 is nice.  Of course, you're never going to be free of the tuition board for 90, and you better own a house before your kids hit school.

Remember that biglaw starts at 160+bonus (15 last year).  Second year is 170 plus bonus (25 last year). Third year is 185 plus bonus (50 last year).

OTOH, that's about how long most associates last in biglaw.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2015, 06:15:01 PM
90 is nice.  Of course, you're never going to be free of the tuition board for 90, and you better own a house before your kids hit school.

Remember that biglaw starts at 160+bonus (15 last year).  Second year is 170 plus bonus (25 last year). Third year is 185 plus bonus (50 last year).

OTOH, that's about how long most associates last in biglaw.

90 is within 2-3 years, 120+ within 5-6.  Also, the 2 local school are both state schools, so tuition is significantly cheaper (mine was 75k OTD, since I was in-state all three years).  I don't know anyone with more than 100-140k of debt, and that's the high end.  Again, if you're not shooting for big law, you don't need to pay for a top 10.

Furthermore, housing is much more affordable as well, even with an FHA/3% down purchase, your mortgage will be MUCH less than renting in NY. 

Just food for thought for PreLaw, and anyone else who is keeping their options open.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on September 29, 2015, 08:56:53 PM
How typical is that schedule for government lawyers? Are there generally jobs available for these positions, and can you give me an idea of pay range?

My basic schedule is fairly typical, I think. I'm fairly sure our collective bargaining agreement covers the hours. That said, some units have lots of mandatory overtime (paid, but still mandatory) and some attorney titles (I'm looking at you, DA's offices) have full-on night shifts and everything.

Jobs for NYC are posted regularly, and we get a lot of Cardozo/Fordham/Brooklyn/NYLS graduates. The NYC Law Department itself is much more exclusive. NY state and local pay is available here (http://seethroughny.net/). Keep in mind that the numbers don't include negotiated pay increases, health care, pension, and other benefits.

Also be aware that NYC government attorneys (with the exception of the Law Department) are subject to residency restrictions. Employees must live in the five boroughs. After two years, employees may also live in Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Westchester, Putnam, and Orange.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 29, 2015, 09:45:13 PM
Raise your mouse if you're working tonight.  I was gonna work in the sukka, but there's nowhere to plug in.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on September 29, 2015, 10:17:22 PM
Raise your mouse if you're working tonight.  I was gonna work in the sukka, but there's nowhere to plug in.

I'm sure someone has said this to you before, but your signature is so apropos for a big-law attorney  ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on September 30, 2015, 03:54:17 PM
Raise your mouse if you're working tonight.  I was gonna work in the sukka, but there's nowhere to plug in.
raised (in pain). I approve of everything henche has ever said about biglaw. well done. I am an m&a-er doing the 4am nights, but unfortunately when u have 5 different clients, u cant sleep til twelve usually, so I pretend I'm the Gra. sleep is for partners.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on September 30, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
sleep is for partners.
Lawyers sleep once they make partner?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on September 30, 2015, 04:28:27 PM
Lawyers sleep once they make partner?
yeah, after like 5 or so years.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 30, 2015, 04:34:56 PM
yeah, after like 5 or so years.

I know some who do, and some who don't.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on September 30, 2015, 10:23:08 PM
Lawyers sleep once they make partner?
generally no better than associates from what I've seen in my firm. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 30, 2015, 10:45:49 PM
generally no better than associates from what I've seen in my firm.
Oy, so what's the goal? To work to work to work??
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 30, 2015, 10:48:49 PM
Oy, so what's the goal? To work to work to work??

Money. "Self perceived" prestige. Adrenalin. Feeling important.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 30, 2015, 10:49:00 PM
Oy, so what's the goal? To work to work to work??
To retire young.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: michael on September 30, 2015, 10:49:42 PM
generally no better than associates from what I've seen in my firm.

Same here. I've seen partners be moser nefesh for work. Literally.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on September 30, 2015, 10:52:37 PM
To retire young.
Are you sure you know what you're talking about?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 30, 2015, 10:55:54 PM
Are you sure you know what you're talking about?
No. Not at all. I got other plans.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on September 30, 2015, 11:00:08 PM
Oy, so what's the goal? To work to work to work??
Isn't the point far more money+equity?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 30, 2015, 11:16:03 PM
The point I was trying to make was that there should be some plan to actually enjoy the money.

A career that calls for 65+ hr weeks forever, means that you are basically selling yourself into slavery (with a bank account.) Ugh.


(In public accounting the partners play golf and do very little BTW.)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on September 30, 2015, 11:21:30 PM
The point I was trying to make was that there should be some plan to actually enjoy the money.

A career that calls for 65+ hr weeks forever, means that you are basically selling yourself into slavery (with a bank account.) Ugh.


(In public accounting the partners play golf and do very little BTW.)

Seems to me that nobody earns money and enjoys it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 30, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
Seems to me that nobody earns money and enjoys it.
Yeah, of course. But there should be a dream (plan?) at least.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on September 30, 2015, 11:36:48 PM
Seems to me that nobody earns money and enjoys it.
Incorrect. But in general yes.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on October 01, 2015, 12:11:10 AM
To retire young.
that's my plan if i can't find a true work/life balance in-house job with a salary high enough to pay tuition (seems these are harder to find than they were in the past). worst comes to worse, i vie for service partner and maybe bring in $600k a year working as hard as i am working now (2400ish billable).
thanks to my slavery, i have plenty of cash for a rainy day and its growing with each new $100k+ bonus. I don't need to hesitate giving tzedakah or lending money to peeps who need it, and i feel like i am a resource to lots of people both with my experience and my cash. i can complain about how terrible my life is, but truth is i am darn lucky to have the opportunity to be a "slave" with the right to leave whenever i want (and with a nice pot i could sit in kollel on for a few years). That doesnt mean peeps should go to law school, but as i see it, i came out bh great.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 01, 2015, 05:44:56 AM
that's my plan if i can't find a true work/life balance in-house job with a salary high enough to pay tuition (seems these are harder to find than they were in the past). worst comes to worse, i vie for service partner and maybe bring in $600k a year working as hard as i am working now (2400ish billable).
thanks to my slavery, i have plenty of cash for a rainy day and its growing with each new $100k+ bonus. I don't need to hesitate giving tzedakah or lending money to peeps who need it, and i feel like i am a resource to lots of people both with my experience and my cash. i can complain about how terrible my life is, but truth is i am darn lucky to have the opportunity to be a "slave" with the right to leave whenever i want (and with a nice pot i could sit in kollel on for a few years). That doesnt mean peeps should go to law school, but as i see it, i came out bh great.
There is a lot to be said for rewarding hard work...
 Its definitely 99% about attitude
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: blerbz on October 02, 2015, 08:57:57 AM
It appeals to me intellectually and is a way to make an income. I'm not interested in working 14 hours a day to make a mega salary that I have no time to enjoy. Would happily accept a smaller salary with fewer hours.
One issue with law is the salaries generally look like an hourglass. Lots of biglaw jobs paying big bucks on one side and lots of jobs on the other side paying very low salaries. Very, very little in the middle. It's not as simple as just saying since you don't need the biglaw salary or hours, you'll just work somewhere else at xx% of biglaw hours and make the corresponding percentage in salary. If you don't make/want it to biglaw, pay drops significantly unless you get lucky on the (relatively) few available positions in the middle.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on October 02, 2015, 02:56:12 PM
One issue with law is the salaries generally look like an hourglass. Lots of biglaw jobs paying big bucks on one side and lots of jobs on the other side paying very low salaries. Very, very little in the middle. It's not as simple as just saying since you don't need the biglaw salary or hours, you'll just work somewhere else at xx% of biglaw hours and make the corresponding percentage in salary. If you don't make/want it to biglaw, pay drops significantly unless you get lucky on the (relatively) few available positions in the middle.

I've heard of the bimodal salary for lawyers where some are making $160,000 and others $40,000. Government work seems like it may be the middle ground, with good hours and benefits, job security, and a salary that is livable. Trying to get a grasp on the salary ceiling for government jobs... is something like $90,000 a reasonable expectation?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on October 02, 2015, 03:03:57 PM
bimodal distribution.

There are two modes.

Like this:
(http://www.nalp.org/uploads/DistributionCurve2013_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on October 02, 2015, 03:48:18 PM
Is that first year salaries? Or overall salaries?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on October 02, 2015, 04:03:11 PM
Is that first year salaries? Or overall salaries?

It appears to be first year.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: eliteflyer on October 04, 2015, 12:19:45 AM
I've heard of the bimodal salary for lawyers where some are making $160,000 and others $40,000. Government work seems like it may be the middle ground, with good hours and benefits, job security, and a salary that is livable. Trying to get a grasp on the salary ceiling for government jobs... is something like $90,000 a reasonable expectation?
just as hard as Biglaw, if not harder, to get into many of the desirable government positions.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on October 04, 2015, 03:00:44 AM
that's my plan if i can't find a true work/life balance in-house job with a salary high enough to pay tuition (seems these are harder to find than they were in the past). worst comes to worse, i vie for service partner and maybe bring in $600k a year working as hard as i am working now (2400ish billable).
thanks to my slavery, i have plenty of cash for a rainy day and its growing with each new $100k+ bonus. I don't need to hesitate giving tzedakah or lending money to peeps who need it, and i feel like i am a resource to lots of people both with my experience and my cash. i can complain about how terrible my life is, but truth is i am darn lucky to have the opportunity to be a "slave" with the right to leave whenever i want (and with a nice pot i could sit in kollel on for a few years). That doesnt mean peeps should go to law school, but as i see it, i came out bh great.

I don't know what year associate you are, but if you're getting successive 100K bonuses there's basically only one firm you could be at...

I've only done 2400 hours once, thank gd, and it wasn't fun. Though, the head of litigation at my firm came from Wilkie and he'd done 3300 hours a year for two consecutive years.  That's billing nine hours a day, 365 days a year. For all the lawyers here, they know that's working like 11-12 hours a day, every day. For two years. He told me he did like 7 all nighters in 11 days. Fell asleep at oral argument and woke up to find out he'd won.

Wow.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on October 04, 2015, 04:25:18 AM
I don't know what year associate you are, but if you're getting successive 100K bonuses there's basically only one firm you could be at...

I've only done 2400 hours once, thank gd, and it wasn't fun. Though, the head of litigation at my firm came from Wilkie and he'd done 3300 hours a year for two consecutive years.  That's billing nine hours a day, 365 days a year. For all the lawyers here, they know that's working like 11-12 hours a day, every day. For two years. He told me he did like 7 all nighters in 11 days. Fell asleep at oral argument and woke up to find out he'd won.

Wow.
sorry, let me clarify.
1) I'm a senior associate.
2) I've actually never billed over 2200ish. I'm usually between 1900-2100, though this year i'm on target for over 2400 (and my LTM is at 2400).
3) I've only received a lump sum $100k+ bonus once (this past year; i.e. NOT WLRK), but I'm referring to +$100Ks in the future, which i expect to continue for me until partnership (unless i leave).
2400 isnt so terrible, though i have friends who have done 2800 and that is annoying. being frum and getting off each shabbos/yom tov is absolutely key, could never do it otherwise. i worked about 57 hours straight once (BH had practice in yeshiva trying to learn nonstop all shavuous (and apropos hoshana rabba :))), and have gone more than 40 straight several times. not so terrible as long as u get a good break after the marathon.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on October 04, 2015, 04:53:50 PM
sorry, let me clarify.
1) I'm a senior associate.
2) I've actually never billed over 2200ish. I'm usually between 1900-2100, though this year i'm on target for over 2400 (and my LTM is at 2400).
3) I've only received a lump sum $100k+ bonus once (this past year; i.e. NOT WLRK), but I'm referring to +$100Ks in the future, which i expect to continue for me until partnership (unless i leave).
2400 isnt so terrible, though i have friends who have done 2800 and that is annoying. being frum and getting off each shabbos/yom tov is absolutely key, could never do it otherwise. i worked about 57 hours straight once (BH had practice in yeshiva trying to learn nonstop all shavuous (and apropos hoshana rabba :))), and have gone more than 40 straight several times. not so terrible as long as u get a good break after the marathon.
I'm not a lawyer, but admire your attitude.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on October 04, 2015, 06:22:13 PM
sorry, let me clarify.
1) I'm a senior associate.
2) I've actually never billed over 2200ish. I'm usually between 1900-2100, though this year i'm on target for over 2400 (and my LTM is at 2400).
3) I've only received a lump sum $100k+ bonus once (this past year; i.e. NOT WLRK), but I'm referring to +$100Ks in the future, which i expect to continue for me until partnership (unless i leave).
2400 isnt so terrible, though i have friends who have done 2800 and that is annoying. being frum and getting off each shabbos/yom tov is absolutely key, could never do it otherwise. i worked about 57 hours straight once (BH had practice in yeshiva trying to learn nonstop all shavuous (and apropos hoshana rabba :))), and have gone more than 40 straight several times. not so terrible as long as u get a good break after the marathon.

Should show this post to everyone considering big law. Shows the extreme pros and cons
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on October 06, 2015, 02:36:49 PM
Those hours may be typical of an M&A attorney in big law, but they aren't for a litigator, or tax, or real estate, etc.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on October 06, 2015, 09:07:45 PM
Those hours may be typical of an M&A attorney in big law, but they aren't for a litigator, or tax, or real estate, etc.

They're typical for tax, in my office.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 06, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
Those hours may be typical of an M&A attorney in big law, but they aren't for a litigator, or tax, or real estate, etc.
More or less?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: grodnoking on October 06, 2015, 10:06:04 PM
I've heard of the bimodal salary for lawyers where some are making $160,000 and others $40,000. Government work seems like it may be the middle ground, with good hours and benefits, job security, and a salary that is livable. Trying to get a grasp on the salary ceiling for government jobs... is something like $90,000 a reasonable expectation?
90,000 sounds correct. But its value is more then 90,000.
just as hard as Biglaw, if not harder, to get into many of the desirable government positions.
I'm aware of a government job that caps at 90,000 and is very easy to get. Starts below 30k though
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on October 06, 2015, 10:18:06 PM
Cashier at Walmart?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Super Speed on October 06, 2015, 10:21:14 PM
Cashier at Walmart?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on October 06, 2015, 11:23:26 PM
More or less?
Less, though average out to about the same. They just don't do those crazy marathons like M&A.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on October 23, 2015, 12:36:15 PM
http://forward.com/culture/323029/more-than-jews-kept-the-sabbath/ thoughts?  ;D
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on October 23, 2015, 01:01:08 PM
http://forward.com/culture/323029/more-than-jews-kept-the-sabbath/ thoughts?  ;D
She won't (or maybe already didn't) make it in big law.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on October 23, 2015, 01:20:20 PM
Lasted longer than most, at a firm more prestigious than most.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on October 23, 2015, 01:41:14 PM
Lasted longer than most, at a firm more prestigious than most.
So you are agreeing with me in the most lawyerly way you can? :P
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: shiframeir on October 23, 2015, 01:46:35 PM
So you are agreeing with me in the most lawyerly way you can? :P
yup, but then again, Cravath in the late 80s was a different place...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on November 02, 2015, 07:31:52 PM
For desireable government jobs, how important is law school prestige in hiring decisions? How much of a boost would Columbia or NYU give over say a Fordham applicant? Also, about how much more would government benefits be valued at compared to benefits at private employers? If I'm making 80k at government, would that be the rough equivalent value wise as around 110k at a private firm
after taking added benefits into aalccount?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 02, 2015, 07:38:51 PM
For desireable government jobs, how important is law school prestige in hiring decisions? How much of a boost would Columbia or NYU give over say a Fordham applicant? Also, about how much more would government benefits be valued at compared to benefits at private employers? If I'm making 80k at government, would that be the rough equivalent value wise as around 110k at a private firm
after taking added benefits into aalccount?
Where are you making 80k in government??? Starting titles in most government law dept jobs are in the mid 40s at best and you dont get raises until you get to the next civil service title. Most govt lawyers never see 80k.

You cant pay tuition or for kosher food with your government benefits. Take the cash and work a little harder instead of staying in a dead end government job. You may end up like my neighbor who was an NYC traffic engineer and retired at age 55 content with his measly pension and content to leave million dollar skills unused. What a waste. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on November 02, 2015, 07:48:41 PM
Where are you making 80k in government??? Starting titles in most government law dept jobs are in the mid 40s at best and you dont get raises until you get to the next civil service title. Most govt lawyers never see 80k.

You cant pay tuition or for kosher food with your government benefits. Take the cash and work a little harder instead of staying in a dead end government job. You may end up like my neighbor who was an NYC traffic engineer and retired at age 55 content with his measly pension and content to leave million dollar skills unused. What a waste.

Around here you're starting at 60s-mid 70s, and in the 90s within 3 years... not sure where you're getting your info.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on November 02, 2015, 08:40:29 PM
Where are you making 80k in government??? Starting titles in most government law dept jobs are in the mid 40s at best and you dont get raises until you get to the next civil service title. Most govt lawyers never see 80k.

You cant pay tuition or for kosher food with your government benefits. Take the cash and work a little harder instead of staying in a dead end government job. You may end up like my neighbor who was an NYC traffic engineer and retired at age 55 content with his measly pension and content to leave million dollar skills unused. What a waste.

You can pay for tuition and kosher food with the savings on health insurance premiums you have due to your government benefits. Would your neighbor have lived a happier and more fulfilling life had he earned another million dollars?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 02, 2015, 08:43:06 PM
Around here you're starting at 60s-mid 70s, and in the 90s within 3 years... not sure where you're getting your info.
Around here its 40s. ADAs and AUSAs make that much to start. Other agencies similar.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on November 02, 2015, 08:46:07 PM
Around here its 40s. ADAs and AUSAs make that much to start. Other agencies similar.

Interesting.  The only agencies making that little are some of the PDs around here.  ASAs (our version of ADAs) make 60s and up, depending on the county; Social Security makes high 50s or 60s, I don't recall; and CMS makes 60s to 70s, starting. 

AUSAs do much better but you're not beginning a career there.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 02, 2015, 08:49:58 PM
You can pay for tuition and kosher food with the savings on health insurance premiums you have due to your government benefits. Would your neighbor have lived a happier and more fulfilling life had he earned another million dollars?
Lets start with the premise that if youre making 110k your also getting benefits comparable to any govt job. So what savings are you talking about?
As for my neighbor, if you consider a more fulfilled life as one where you take your old lady carriage and go to the supermarket every other day for your small bottle of milk, wake up for the second minyan, do daf yomi in the evening instead of before shachris and spend the rest of your pathetic existence in your high 50s and 60s waiting for the Malach Hamaves then maybe a your million dollar skills are not wasted. Its not the money its the waste of skills and useful resources. There is a mentality amongst government employees...and certain elements of our community to get away with an easy life. Dont work too hard c'v. There is a price to pay for taking a govt job, thats all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 02, 2015, 08:56:54 PM
Pathetic existence? Bitter much?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 02, 2015, 08:58:28 PM
Pathetic existence? Bitter much?
Not at all. Its not directed at him. Its a general statement about that type of person.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 02, 2015, 09:01:55 PM
Pensions be good for frum peeps. Because your tuition committee can't take your pension, and by the time you're drawing on it its too late.

Make sure to max out your 401k or IRA before your kids hit school--that money is safe from the tuition vandals.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 02, 2015, 09:07:48 PM
Pensions be good for frum peeps. Because your tuition committee can't take your pension, and by the time you're drawing on it its too late.

Make sure to max out your 401k or IRA before your kids hit school--that money is safe from the tuition vandals.
Pensions are a dyin. They vest later. Retirement age is pushed back. Not as lucrative as they used to be.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 02, 2015, 09:26:27 PM
Pathetic existence? Bitter much?
+1 wow that was harsh.

Maybe some people just enjoy spending time with family.

I guess some people feel they are better when they put others down.

That said going to law school to work a $40k a year job seems a waste to me.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 02, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
+1 wow that was harsh.

Maybe some people just enjoy spending time with family.

I guess some people feel they are better when they put others down.

That said going to law school to work a $40k a year job seems a waste to me.
+1
I could have gotten into a top flight law school and probably excelled in big law. Instead I chose to become a computer programmer and enjoy my 9:30-5:30 work day. Probably left millions on the table. I guess I live a pathetic existence?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: prelaw on November 02, 2015, 10:04:52 PM
Lets start with the premise that if youre making 110k your also getting benefits comparable to any govt job. So what savings are you talking about?
As for my neighbor, if you consider a more fulfilled life as one where you take your old lady carriage and go to the supermarket every other day for your small bottle of milk, wake up for the second minyan, do daf yomi in the evening instead of before shachris and spend the rest of your pathetic existence in your high 50s and 60s waiting for the Malach Hamaves then maybe a your million dollar skills are not wasted. Its not the money its the waste of skills and useful resources. There is a mentality amongst government employees...and certain elements of our community to get away with an easy life. Dont work too hard c'v. There is a price to pay for taking a govt job, thats all I'm saying.

My understanding is that government jobs generally have better benefits than do jobs in the private sector. Perhaps law is an exception, but otherwise I would object to  premise.

Further, if any existence is pathetic I would say that would apply to someone whose outlook is that his only value is via his work product, without which he is worthless. Do you plan on retiring ever? Will your existence then be pathetic? Or are you of the belief that retiring at 65, or 75, thus precludes you from being "pathetic," but retiring at 55 renders you undeniably so? Your argument also assumes that after retirement your neighbor doesn't use his skills. Perhaps he volunteers or makes use of his variety of skills via other means.

Also, what of stay at home mothers. Once their kids are independent, are they in your view all discarded to the "pathetic" pile? Or people who are not successful professionally. Also thrown to the pathetic bin?

Live and let live. I very much doubt your neighbor is judging you for the choices you make regarding your professional career.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 02, 2015, 10:18:15 PM
+1
I could have gotten into a top flight law school and probably excelled in big law. Instead I chose to become a computer programmer and enjoy my 9:30-5:30 work day. Probably left millions on the table. I guess I live a pathetic existence?

<sigh>
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 02, 2015, 10:24:41 PM
+1
I could have gotten into a top flight law school and probably excelled in big law. Instead I chose to become a computer programmer and enjoy my 9:30-5:30 work day. Probably left millions on the table. I guess I live a pathetic existence?

pathetic. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 02, 2015, 10:44:16 PM
Lets start with the premise that if youre making 110k your also getting benefits comparable to any govt job. So what savings are you talking about?
As for my neighbor, if you consider a more fulfilled life as one where you take your old lady carriage and go to the supermarket every other day for your small bottle of milk, wake up for the second minyan, do daf yomi in the evening instead of before shachris and spend the rest of your pathetic existence in your high 50s and 60s waiting for the Malach Hamaves then maybe a your million dollar skills are not wasted. Its not the money its the waste of skills and useful resources. There is a mentality amongst government employees...and certain elements of our community to get away with an easy life. Dont work too hard c'v. There is a price to pay for taking a govt job, thats all I'm saying.

Does working as a lawyer add any intrinsic value to anything or anyone??

Your neighbor could potentially learn Torah all day in his fifties and sixties. At least he'll have a few years to show for himself when the malach hamoves does come.

It's all about perspective.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 02, 2015, 10:58:32 PM
Does working as a lawyer add any intrinsic value to anything or anyone??


I think so.  I'm enabling business transactions to move smoothly. 

Organized business transactions have vastly improved human life.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 02, 2015, 11:01:57 PM
I think so.  I'm enabling business transactions to move smoothly. 

Organized business transactions have vastly improved human life.
So lawyers improve human life.

(Sounds like a punch line )
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 02, 2015, 11:03:07 PM
So lawyers improve human life.

(Sounds like a punch line )

People like to make fun. You want to go back to a barter economy?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 02, 2015, 11:36:46 PM
I believe most professions improve human life.

Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 02, 2015, 11:42:08 PM
<sigh>
And an 18 minute commute to boot
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 12:45:22 AM
I was not saying it as a general statement. If you look at this guy his existence is pathetic. Its not family time he's busy with. It is a mentality of most local government employees. When a cop has a license plate that says 20ANDOUT...meaning he will put in his 20 years and then file for his pension its a mentality. Hes not a law enforcement hero. Hes a stiff making widgets until its time to atop making widgets. Government lawyers in NY for the most part (ADAs that become criminal defense attorneys are the exception) are widget making stiffs who put in their years and then retire without any drive or motivation to grow professionally. That is my definition of a pathetic existence.
Let the games begin...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on November 03, 2015, 12:58:21 AM
I was not saying it as a general statement. If you look at this guy his existence is pathetic. Its not family time he's busy with. It is a mentality of most local government employees. When a cop has a license plate that says 20ANDOUT...meaning he will put in his 20 years and then file for his pension its a mentality. Hes not a law enforcement hero. Hes a stiff making widgets until its time to atop making widgets. Government lawyers in NY for the most part (ADAs that become criminal defense attorneys are the exception) are widget making stiffs who put in their years and then retire without any drive or motivation to grow professionally. That is my definition of a pathetic existence.
Let the games begin...
there are government employees and there are government employees. The guy who works minimally, with no professional pride for 30 years in order to spend the rest of his life sitting on a rocking chair on his front porch reading the paper is arguably wasting 30 years with no real fulfilling goal.
The guy who works pushing paper for 30 years so that when he gets home at 6 pm he doesn't have to think about work at all, and can have dinner with his family and go learn, and when he is 55 he can go back to kollel, spend time with his kids etc with no parnassa worries has one of the most fulfilling existences known to man.
As one of those in the second category, who had recently retired from a NYC job told me (as he sat down in the bais medrash for first seder), for thirty years I could have been comatose at my desk and no one would have cared. But now I am so alive!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 06:17:10 AM
there are government employees and there are government employees. The guy who works minimally, with no professional pride for 30 years in order to spend the rest of his life sitting on a rocking chair on his front porch reading the paper is arguably wasting 30 years with no real fulfilling goal.
The guy who works pushing paper for 30 years so that when he gets home at 6 pm he doesn't have to think about work at all, and can have dinner with his family and go learn, and when he is 55 he can go back to kollel, spend time with his kids etc with no parnassa worries has one of the most fulfilling existences known to man.
As one of those in the second category, who had recently retired from a NYC job told me (as he sat down in the bais medrash for first seder), for thirty years I could have been comatose at my desk and no one would have cared. But now I am so alive!
Kol Hakavod.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 06:20:28 AM
I believe most professions improve human life.
Would that include the oldest profession?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: lunatic on November 03, 2015, 07:09:44 AM
there are government employees and there are government employees. The guy who works minimally, with no professional pride for 30 years in order to spend the rest of his life sitting on a rocking chair on his front porch reading the paper is arguably wasting 30 years with no real fulfilling goal.
The guy who works pushing paper for 30 years so that when he gets home at 6 pm he doesn't have to think about work at all, and can have dinner with his family and go learn, and when he is 55 he can go back to kollel, spend time with his kids etc with no parnassa worries has one of the most fulfilling existences known to man.
As one of those in the second category, who had recently retired from a NYC job told me (as he sat down in the bais medrash for first seder), for thirty years I could have been comatose at my desk and no one would have cared. But now I am so alive!
Still at pathetic use of 30 years...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 07:56:38 AM
Still at pathetic use of 30 years...
Thats a choice people make. Spend 30 years in a dead end job so that they have a pension and have to ration their retirement assets. They keep busy trying to figure out if they can afford a trip to here or a night out on the town. There is no (real) financial security in a government pension. It breeds frugality and deprivation.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yr on November 03, 2015, 09:17:21 AM
My understanding is that government jobs generally have better benefits than do jobs in the private sector. Perhaps law is an exception, but otherwise I would object to  premise.



-1

Compared to a small heimeshe firm, government benefits are better. But I think most large corporation have pretty similar benefits to government with the exception of a DB pension. Most just have a matching contribution DC plan.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 09:31:14 AM

-1

Compared to a small heimeshe firm, government benefits are better. But I think most large corporation have pretty similar benefits to government with the exception of a DB pension. Most just have a matching contribution DC plan.
There are no absolute rules, but generally speaking (I'm not restricting myself to law here) the biggest benefit found in government vs private sector jobs is health insurance. Government jobs generally pay most, and sometime all, of the cost of health insurance, while private sector jobs do not. They may offer better or worse plans, and contribute some amount toward your premium, but they generally don't pay it outright.

How much value you get out of that benefit will certainly vary based on the 2 specific jobs you're comparing.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 09:32:43 AM
There are no absolute rules, but generally speaking (I'm not restricting myself to law here) the biggest benefit found in government vs private sector jobs is health insurance. Government jobs generally pay most, and sometime all, of the cost of health insurance, while private sector jobs do not. They may offer better or worse plans, and contribute some amount toward your premium, but they generally don't pay it outright.

How much value you get out of that benefit will certainly vary based on the 2 specific jobs you're comparing.

My health care premium will be ~10k for 2016.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 09:35:33 AM
there are government employees and there are government employees. The guy who works minimally, with no professional pride for 30 years in order to spend the rest of his life sitting on a rocking chair on his front porch reading the paper is arguably wasting 30 years with no real fulfilling goal.
The guy who works pushing paper for 30 years so that when he gets home at 6 pm he doesn't have to think about work at all, and can have dinner with his family and go learn, and when he is 55 he can go back to kollel, spend time with his kids etc with no parnassa worries has one of the most fulfilling existences known to man.
As one of those in the second category, who had recently retired from a NYC job told me (as he sat down in the bais medrash for first seder), for thirty years I could have been comatose at my desk and no one would have cared. But now I am so alive!
Not sure I buy into that. Surely there are jobs where you can be fulfilled for 30 years and have accomplished something with that immense amount of time while still being able to be with your family and learn.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 09:36:10 AM
My health care premium will be ~10k for 2016.
Wow, are they covering anything?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 09:42:33 AM
Wow, are they covering anything?
Of course. His premiums would be ~$25-30K otherwise
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
Not sure I buy into that. Surely there are jobs where you can be fulfilled for 30 years and have accomplished something with that immense amount of time while still being able to be with your family and learn.
Sure, and there are government jobs that fit that bill as well. The whole premise is flawed. Besides, this discussion has more to do with the person than the job.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Of course. His premiums would be ~$25-30K otherwise
My family's premiums beg to differ.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 09:49:55 AM
My health care premium will be ~10k for 2016.
Right, contrasted with $200 for the whole year (which is actually for some optional rider or something) for health insurance, and ~$1500 per year for union dues that provide dental/optical/prescription coverage. This is for a NYC school employee, but you'll find a similar situation for many government jobs.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 09:52:40 AM
Of course. His premiums would be ~$25-30K otherwise

+1, a partner told me he pays 30k for family.
My family's premiums beg to differ.

I got no answer. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 09:56:58 AM
I belong to a group of small businesses in CLE. I pay less than $1K/month for the whole family with a $1,500 individual/$3K family deductible.
Used to be half that before ObamaCare came and it went skyrocketing :(
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 10:00:51 AM
I pay less than $1K/month

So is Henche. 10k for the year works out to $833 per month.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 10:01:06 AM
I belong to a group of small businesses in CLE. I pay less than $1K/month for the whole family with a $1,500 individual/$3K family deductible.
Used to be half that before ObamaCare came and it went skyrocketing :(
i pay $2750 for the year for a family. but its a high deductible plan.
 the other plan is $6540.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 10:01:19 AM
Would that include the oldest profession?
I'd say farming/hunting helps provide food for people and that benefits society. Or are you saying there was something before that?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: thaber on November 03, 2015, 10:01:25 AM
Not sure I buy into that. Surely there are jobs where you can be fulfilled for 30 years and have accomplished something with that immense amount of time while still being able to be with your family and learn.
Of course,  although you usually can't retire at 55 unless you find a fulfilling government job,  school teacher,  police officer could be if you want them to. My point is that it's far from a pathetic existence, even if it's not something you or I or most of the ambitious DDF crowd would choose
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 10:06:26 AM
So is Henche. 10k for the year works out to $833 per month.
Except his is being subsidized by his employer. Mine is not.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 10:27:33 AM
I pay no monthly premium, I pay no copay, and I pay no deductible.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Aaaron on November 03, 2015, 10:29:13 AM
I'd say farming/hunting helps provide food for people and that benefits society. Or are you saying there was something before that?

Lol.  Think about something else, also biblical, as early as the first half of sefer bereishis...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 10:29:51 AM
I'm hoping he was being intentionally thick...
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Dan on November 03, 2015, 10:33:22 AM
I pay no monthly premium, I pay no copay, and I pay no deductible.
See, now that's a healthcare benefit.
The rest is Henchebabble.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 10:34:46 AM
To he fair, it's not through my firm. #GodBlessMrsAJK
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 10:36:23 AM
I'm hoping he was being intentionally thick...
Not my fault if people don't have their facts straight.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 10:37:11 AM
Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good proverb?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 10:39:24 AM
To he fair, it's not through my firm. #GodBlessMrsAJK
What does she do?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 10:40:19 AM
In the health profession, employed by a hospital.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yr on November 03, 2015, 10:46:43 AM
Right, contrasted with $200 for the whole year (which is actually for some optional rider or something) for health insurance, and ~$1500 per year for union dues that provide dental/optical/prescription coverage. This is for a NYC school employee, but you'll find a similar situation for many government jobs.

My first job was about 1000 a year for the whole family for  amazing health , dental and vision.

My current job is about 5000 for similar benefits. Full cost would be about 20k/year. I've interviewed in other places and seen similar prices.

Obviously not as good as government,  but the salary more than makes up for it.

And btw, both my current and previous jobs are 9-5 , period, and I'm not a lawyer.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 10:53:12 AM
My first job was about 1000 a year for the whole family for  amazing health , dental and vision.

My current job is about 5000 for similar benefits. Full cost would be about 20k/year. I've interviewed in other places and seen similar prices.

Obviously not as good as government,  but the salary more than makes up for it.

And btw, both my current and previous jobs are 9-5 , period, and I'm not a lawyer.
screams actuary
and that would be even if i didnt know your profession
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
High time we rename this thread, no?
What would the title be?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 10:56:13 AM
High time we rename this thread, no?
What would the title be?
what do you pay for health insurance/what is your profession (or your spouses)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 10:57:03 AM
what do you pay for health insurance/what is your profession (or your spouses)
That would be good for the last 50 posts.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yr on November 03, 2015, 10:59:52 AM
screams actuary
and that would be even if i didnt know your profession

;)

Am I right about the benefits being similar at the companies actuaries traditionally work at?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 11:02:50 AM
;)

Am I right about the benefits being similar at the companies actuaries traditionally work at?
Wouldn't know, I use my wife's benefits. Only real shame is that my company doesn't rebate me anything for the fact that I don't use their insurance (saves them a ton of money). There are actually government jobs that do that. My brother gets money back from his CUNY job because they use his wife's NYC health benefits.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 11:03:50 AM
Wouldn't know, I use my wife's benefits. Only real shame is that my company doesn't rebate me anything for the fact that I don't use their insurance (saves them a ton of money). There are actually government jobs that do that. My brother gets money back from his CUNY job because they use his wife's NYC health benefits.
my company charges more if my wife uses their benefits (since she can get her own coverage)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Back to my original question, how do you pay schar limud with benefits?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 11:08:34 AM
my company charges more if my wife uses their benefits (since she can get her own coverage)
Right, but I'm saving them a bundle by not using it at all. We have a page on our benefits site that shows you 'total rewards', ie what the full cost of your employment is to the company. I just asked my colleague, who uses the company's insurance (likely the same choices I'd have to make) and the health portion costs my company $16,365 vs my $455 (which is actually for some minimal free disability and life insurance they provide).
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 11:09:30 AM
Right, but I'm saving them a bundle by not using it at all. We have a page on our benefits site that shows you 'total rewards', ie what the full cost of your employment is to the company. I just asked my colleague, who uses the company's insurance (likely the same choices I'd have to make) and the health portion costs my company $16,365 vs my $455 (which is actually for some minimal free disability and life insurance they provide).
good luck convincing them to give you some of that money :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: kangarruu on November 03, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
Wouldn't know, I use my wife's benefits. Only real shame is that my company doesn't rebate me anything for the fact that I don't use their insurance (saves them a ton of money). There are actually government jobs that do that. My brother gets money back from his CUNY job because they use his wife's NYC health benefits.

This year it's $3k back (http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/olr/downloads/pdf/fsa/msc-buyout-poster.pdf) for declining city insurance.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: Sport on November 03, 2015, 11:12:26 AM
I pay no monthly premium, I pay no copay, and I pay no deductible.

In the health profession, employed by a hospital.
Same here, just $75 /month in union dues.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 11:21:13 AM
Back to my original question, how do you pay schar limud with benefits?

Financial aid.

It's actually quite ingenious: make less, allowing you to partake in scholarship, but at the same time not having to worry about benefits.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 12:01:38 PM
I should mention my 10k gets me 0 deductible. 20 dollar copays, and 250 dollar hospitalization copay.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 12:02:42 PM
I should mention my 10k gets me 0 deductible. 20 dollar copays, and 250 dollar hospitalization copay.
prefer high deductible option, as long as we BH stay healthy
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
prefer high deductible option, as long as we BH stay healthy

They offering obamacare alternative for 2016. 7k gets me: 3k deductible, 12k out of pocket max, 1500 contribution to my hsa, 10 percent coinsurance after deductible before max.

Would be cheaper many years, but not in a year you have a baby, and def not in a year you have a baby with complications. 
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 12:31:25 PM
They offering obamacare alternative for 2016. 7k gets me: 3k deductible, 12k out of pocket max, 1500 contribution to my hsa, 10 percent coinsurance after deductible before max.

Would be cheaper many years, but not in a year you have a baby, and def not in a year you have a baby with complications.
regarding the first half, thats why i kept my wife on her company plan which had a great reimbursement policy
regarding the second half, refua shlaima and hope all goes/went well
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 12:36:52 PM
regarding the first half, thats why i kept my wife on her company plan which had a great reimbursement policy
regarding the second half, refua shlaima and hope all goes/went well

No issues, b"h. Just looking prospectively at the risks.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 12:41:32 PM
There are no absolute rules, but generally speaking (I'm not restricting myself to law here) the biggest benefit found in government vs private sector jobs is health insurance. Government jobs generally pay most, and sometime all, of the cost of health insurance, while private sector jobs do not. They may offer better or worse plans, and contribute some amount toward your premium, but they generally don't pay it outright.
What about job security? How about vacation time, holidays and paid sick leave?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 12:45:22 PM
What about job security? How about vacation time, holidays and paid sick leave?
Job security is not a measurable benefit in the same way as the other benefits we've been discussing. And the others you mention (except perhaps holidays) vary pretty significantly by employer, both within government and within private.

ETA: Not that I'm downplaying those benefits. The number of hours my wife actually works in a year (averaged out for the whole year) would hardly be called full time in any other profession.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 12:48:28 PM
What about job security? How about vacation time, holidays and paid sick leave?
+1 for job security. Fwiu it is very hard to be fired from a government job.

As mentioned here law firms have some of the best vacation options. I know firms that give unlimited vacation, or if you bill like a couple hours it's no a vacation day.

What should rename this thread pros and cons of being a lawyer?
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 12:50:39 PM
+1 for job security. Fwiu it is very hard to be fired from a government job.

As mentioned here law firms have some of the best vacation options. I know firms that give unlimited vacation, or if you bill like a couple hours it's no a vacation day.

What should rename this thread pros and cons of being a lawyer?
while that may be true, that has to be weighed against the typical hours. im sure we all know ppl who put in crazy amounts of hours, and the unlimited vacation sounds great, but when they cant really take much vacation, it doesnt help
i have unlimited sick days, but what good is it when sick days are frowned upon
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 12:51:36 PM
+1 for job security. Fwiu it is very hard to be fired from a government job.

As mentioned here law firms have some of the best vacation options. I know firms that give unlimited vacation, or if you bill like a couple hours it's no a vacation day.

What should rename this thread pros and cons of being a lawyer?
while that may be true, that has to be weighed against the typical hours. im sure we all know ppl who put in crazy amounts of hours, and the unlimited vacation sounds great, but when they cant really take much vacation, it doesnt help
i have unlimited sick days, but what good is it when sick days are frowned upon

Yep. My firm has unlimited vacation. But that's counterbalanced by the requirement of a billable hours minimum.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 12:53:55 PM
Yep. My firm has unlimited vacation.
I think we already figured that out.  :)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 12:54:22 PM
Yep. My firm has unlimited vacation. But that's counterbalanced by the requirement of a billable hours minimum.
What's your minimum billable?

I think we already figured that out.  :)
ALOL!!!
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS1 on November 03, 2015, 12:56:09 PM
Yep. My firm has unlimited vacation. But that's counterbalanced by the requirement of a billable hours minimum.

ok. So can you bill while on vacation? (i.e. can you work remotely?)
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 12:57:04 PM
As mentioned here law firms have some of the best vacation options.


Many firms also don't make you use vacation days for Jewish holidays. On a year like this one, that can save you 10+ days.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 01:02:11 PM
Many firms also don't make you use vacation days for Jewish holidays. On a year like this one, that can save you 10+ days.

I use personal days for yontiff. I'm entitled to 20 vacation days, and I'll end up using about 16 days I actually considered myself on vacation, plus several days that I didn't go into office and only worked a few hours (like purim, tisha b'av, flying down to baltimore for a kiddush, flying to chicago for a bris, etc). 

I also get 4 weeks for a baby, limited to once a year  >:(
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 01:04:23 PM
I also get 4 weeks for a baby, limited to once a year  >:(
You have more than one a year?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
I use personal days for yontiff. I'm entitled to 20 vacation days, and I'll end up using about 16 days I actually considered myself on vacation, plus several days that I didn't go into office and only worked a few hours (like purim, tisha b'av, flying down to baltimore for a kiddush, flying to chicago for a bris, etc). 

I also get 4 weeks for a baby, limited to once a year  >:(

What are personal v vacation days?

You have more than one a year?
Every good catholic woman does.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: yr on November 03, 2015, 01:05:04 PM
Many firms also don't make you use vacation days for Jewish holidays. On a year like this one, that can save you 10+ days.

Wow, that's pretty good. What's the rationale behind that?  Would they give off Ramadan too?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 01:06:23 PM
Every good catholic woman does.
Source?  :P
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Dr Moose on November 03, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
Would that include the oldest profession?
Thats the best of them all. It creates human life.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 01:10:52 PM
What's your minimum billable?
ALOL!!!

1900 I believe.

ok. So can you bill while on vacation? (i.e. can you work remotely?)

1000%. I've sued people from Chiang Mai, Cape Town, and Chicago.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
I also get 4 weeks for a baby, limited to once a year  >:(

I think we get 6 or 8 paid.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 01:12:47 PM
1900 I believe.

1000%. I've sued people from Chiang Mai, Cape Town, and Chicago.
36 hour work week sounds like a nice gig. But how long does it take to bill 1,900?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 01:13:01 PM
What are personal v vacation days?
Probably has carryover nafka minas
I think we get 6 or 8 paid.
Are you expected to work during that time
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 01:15:59 PM
36 hour work week sounds like a nice gig. But how long does it take to bill 1,900?

Hardly. To bill 36 hours  means you have to work probably 45-50. And that's before time off for holidays, vacations, etc.

Are you expected to work during that time

It'd probably be irresponsible to totally abandon your responsibilities, but you're more out than in.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 01:42:39 PM
You have more than one a year?

If I could get a month off.

What are personal v vacation days?

Nothing.  Get paid for both, and work on neither. No limit on personal days.

Hours target is 1900, but I was way over.   
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 01:53:28 PM
Hours target is 1900, but I was way over.
Mine will be 2,000, but doubt I'll have a problem hitting it.
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 03, 2015, 01:56:33 PM
If I could get a month off.
...and what would your husband say?  :P
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
i have 2 kids
each time i had a baby, the company i was at started 2 weeks paid leave the 1/1 following the birth
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2015, 02:13:59 PM
i have 2 kids
each time i had a baby, the company i was at started 2 weeks paid leave the 1/1 following the birth
My father has 6 kids, all of whom were born while he worked for the same employer he currently works for. They never had paid parental leave till after we were all born. Now they give 8 weeks  :-\
Title: Re: Moving for Law School?
Post by: henche on November 03, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
...and what would your husband say?  :P

Women get 18 weeks paid.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: tdb on November 03, 2015, 03:04:23 PM
I Guess I'll give my input for what its worth. I graduated from a decent law school top half of the class for sure. Had numerous Biglaw interviews but never received an offer. I wanted more than anything to work for Biglaw but couldn't get in. I worked for a small law firm and really learned the nitty gritty of how to practice.  I now own my own firm and have several attorneys working for me. thank g-d we are doing really well.  Looking back  i am thankful for not getting in to Biglaw.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: good sam on November 03, 2015, 03:06:03 PM
I Guess I'll give my input for what its worth. I graduated from a decent law school top half of the class for sure. Had numerous Biglaw interviews but never received an offer. I wanted more than anything to work for Biglaw but couldn't get in. I worked for a small law firm and really learned the nitty gritty of how to practice.  I now own my own firm and have several attorneys working for me. thank g-d we are doing really well.  Looking back  i am thankful for not getting in to Biglaw.
Great story! What year did you graduate?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: tdb on November 03, 2015, 03:06:52 PM
05
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
I Guess I'll give my input for what its worth. I graduated from a decent law school top half of the class for sure. Had numerous Biglaw interviews but never received an offer. I wanted more than anything to work for Biglaw but couldn't get in. I worked for a small law firm and really learned the nitty gritty of how to practice.  I now own my own firm and have several attorneys working for me. thank g-d we are doing really well.  Looking back  i am thankful for not getting in to Biglaw.
Very cool story! Good for you!

Is it too personal to ask if you are making as much or more than the average partner at a big law firm? And what are your hours?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: grodnoking on November 03, 2015, 03:13:59 PM
Good title change!
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: tdb on November 03, 2015, 03:24:57 PM
Very cool story! Good for you!

Is it too personal to ask if you are making as much or more than the average partner at a big law firm? And what are your hours?

My hours are 24/6 as i am constantly managing, analyzing and supervising but i am in the office around 10-7.  Definitely not making more than top tier equity partners, probably making more than mid tier contract partners.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: grodnoking on November 03, 2015, 03:26:41 PM
My hours are 24/6 as i am constantly managing, analyzing and supervising but i am in the office around 10-7.  Definitely not making more than top tier equity partners, probably making more than mid tier contract partners.
But hopefully you can retire young while still getting a nice sized stipend from the firm you own.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:26:49 PM
Very cool story! Good for you!

Is it too personal to ask if you are making as much or more than the average partner at a big law firm? And what are your hours?
Id venture to guess hes making twice what an average partner is making working half the hours.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 03:27:54 PM
My hours are 24/6 as i am constantly managing, analyzing and supervising but i am in the office around 10-7.  Definitely not making more than top tier equity partners, probably making more than mid tier contract partners.
Thanks for sharing. Good data points.

People think owning a business is fun and games while most business owners probably work more than any employee.

I think Dan has a thing on that somewhere.

Good title change!
Thanks. Now to add a wiki.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 03, 2015, 03:28:35 PM
My hours are 24/6 as i am constantly managing, analyzing and supervising but i am in the office around 10-7.  Definitely not making more than top tier equity partners, probably making more than mid tier contract partners.
Id venture to guess hes making twice what an average partner is making working half the hours.
hmmm
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:29:47 PM
Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:31:31 PM
hmmm
billable hours works out to spending more than 70 hours a week in the office.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 03:31:47 PM
Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.

Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: EJB on November 03, 2015, 03:33:57 PM
Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

You could be like Kang and enslave yourself to NYS...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 03:38:37 PM
Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

I don't think that the only reason for wanting big law is debt and that once it's paid, people plan on leaving. I've always wanted to do big law and will be starting in October. Thank G-d won't have that much debt to pay off, but plan/hope to stay at a firm for my whole career.

My personal reason for wanting to do so – there aren't that many jobs out there that pay enough to support a Jewish lifestyle (I don't want to have to ask for tuition breaks) and I think that it will be intellectually stimulating and won't get boring after a few years.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:41:03 PM
Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.
The business of law is a bad business model. You will make a living. Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers. 14 hour days 6 days a week take a toll. Unless you are at a furm like Fried Frank where frum lawyers seem to make it, your not gonna make partner in most big firms. Anyone that asks me about law school gets the bad business model speech. Unless you have clients that you can invest with or who will take you along for the ride either when they go big as GC or public its probably not the best idea to count on making it big as a lawyer.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 03:43:56 PM
Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers.

You can make the argument that being frum makes it difficult to succeed at almost any prestigious job. There are plenty of successful frum lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc. If you're smart and you care to put in the work, I don't think you're chances are any worse than the average non-Jew.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: tdb on November 03, 2015, 03:47:58 PM

I tell people when they aske me about going to law school  that in my opinion they are better off in the long run working for a real estate company for free for 3 years than going to law school.  They will get a better education with more potential earning power and no tuition costs.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 03:49:34 PM
No question I think most lawyer agree if you don't want to be  a lawyer than don't.

If it's your parents forcing you to do it to have a "real profession" you will hate it, and it's not worth it.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: good sam on November 03, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.
You're a lawyer? I figured you were in heating and cooling :P
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:53:53 PM
You can make the argument that being frum makes it difficult to succeed at almost any prestigious job. There are plenty of successful frum lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc. If you're smart and you care to put in the work, I don't think you're chances are any worse than the average non-Jew.
Take it from someone wh lived that culture for 5 years at the largest firm in the world. It makes family life hell. You leave home on Motzei Shabbos to get in the hours you missed friday. Spend the night at the office so you can have a few hours with the family on Sunday. Monday to Thursday its 8am-10pm black car home. Friday its home right at the zman. Its delusional to think you can BILL 60 hours a week without spending at least 70 in the office and you need to bill that much because of shabbos and Yom Tov and vacation and sick days.

There is a dearth of frum equity partners in big law firms. Most frum lawyers either end up as Of Counsel or contract partners at best.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 03:54:41 PM
You're a lawyer? I figured you were in heating and cooling :P
Hatzolah Volunteer Ambulance Corps...HVAC
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 03:58:04 PM
I don't think that the only reason for wanting big law is debt and that once it's paid, people plan on leaving. I've always wanted to do big law and will be starting in October. Thank G-d won't have that much debt to pay off, but plan/hope to stay at a firm for my whole career.

My personal reason for wanting to do so – there aren't that many jobs out there that pay enough to support a Jewish lifestyle (I don't want to have to ask for tuition breaks) and I think that it will be intellectually stimulating and won't get boring after a few years.

Of course it's not the *only* reason.  The primary reason though, whether it's for servicing debt or for supporting a Jewish family, is for the money. Simple as that.

The business of law is a bad business model. You will make a living. Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers. 14 hour days 6 days a week take a toll. Unless you are at a furm like Fried Frank where frum lawyers seem to make it, your not gonna make partner in most big firms. Anyone that asks me about law school gets the bad business model speech. Unless you have clients that you can invest with or who will take you along for the ride either when they go big as GC or public its probably not the best idea to count on making it big as a lawyer.

Frum lawyers make it in more big firms than just Fried Frank.

In any event, you side-stepped my comment: Big law is the *only* way in the short term to effectively service nearly $200K in debt if you want any prayer of getting out from underneath the mountain before you can collect SS, notwithstanding your allegation that big law "is over over over-rated."
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 04:00:05 PM
Take it from someone wh lived that culture for 5 years at the largest firm in the world. It makes family life hell. You leave home on Motzei Shabbos to get in the hours you missed friday. Spend the night at the office so you can have a few hours with the family on Sunday. Monday to Thursday its 8am-10pm black car home. Friday its home right at the zman. Its delusional to think you can BILL 60 hours a week without spending at least 70 in the office and you need to bill that much because of shabbos and Yom Tov and vacation and sick days.

There is a dearth of frum equity partners in big law firms. Most frum lawyers either end up as Of Counsel or contract partners at best.

Sorry, but not all big firms are like that. Seems like you had a bad experience, which can and does happen.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 04:04:06 PM
Sorry, but not all big firms are like that. Seems like you had a bad experience, which can and does happen.
You are correct about teh debt service although public service also allows for debt forgiveness as well. I can only say what i saw at the firm and what my friends and colleagues told me when they were junior associates. Any frum person I know that has been at a big firm hasnt stayed on as partner...except at Fried Frank. 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 05:01:04 PM
Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.
I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 05:01:56 PM
I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?
+1. Can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 05:35:38 PM
I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?
I think you need to read that post again. And apologize while youre at it too. It was an observation about one individual...who i know personally and lives a pathetic existence.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 05:41:12 PM
+1. Can't have it both ways.
And i am not an advocate of working more hours for the same pay. A forst year lawyer makes $75-$100 an hour before taxes. But is earning a fixed salary no matter how many hours he works. I advocate working an honest job for as long as you can/feel you need to work. If that means a govt job fine. But retiring at age 55 with skills that can be used to bolster a much nicer retirement at age 60, 65, 70 without have any aspirations or goals other than to get up another day and do the same old thing until death comes knocking is pretty pathetic.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
I'm sorry, but your comments drip with resentment and judgment. And reek to high heavens of entitlement.

How can you pass judgment on someone whose priorities are different from yours? Someone who wishes to take a path that rewards him or her in a manner different from the one you afford any respect does not make that path any less righteous; it just makes it different from yours.

The air down here with the hoi polloi is just as breathable. Give it a try sometime, my friend.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: kangarruu on November 03, 2015, 06:27:22 PM
Big law is the *only* way in the short term to effectively service nearly $200K in debt if you want any prayer of getting out from underneath the mountain before you can collect SS, notwithstanding your allegation that big law "is over over over-rated."

There's also PAYE plus PSLF for government or nonprofit service. 10 years of relatively small payments, regardless of debt load.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 06:39:24 PM
I'm sorry, but your comments drip with resentment and judgment. And reek to high heavens of entitlement.

How can you pass judgment on someone whose priorities are different from yours? Someone who wishes to take a path that rewards him or her in a manner different from the one you afford any respect does not make that path any less righteous; it just makes it different from yours.

The air down here with the hoi polloi is just as breathable. Give it a try sometime, my friend.
Well said sir
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 06:45:13 PM
I'm sorry, but your comments drip with resentment and judgment. And reek to high heavens of entitlement.

How can you pass judgment on someone whose priorities are different from yours? Someone who wishes to take a path that rewards him or her in a manner different from the one you afford any respect does not make that path any less righteous; it just makes it different from yours.

The air down here with the hoi polloi is just as breathable. Give it a try sometime, my friend.
Its more of a consensus than my own opinion. If taking your shopping cart to the supermarket every other day for a half gallon of milk and waking up for the second minyan is fulfillment I'd rather not have it. Thats not being judgmental thats just not a living. You may disagree with the label of pathetic but if you catch me doing that at age 55 you have my permission to shoot me. For the record I'm closer to 55 than 25.
I dont resent this guy, or judge him i stated a fact about one government employee who lives a pathetic life. And let he who is without son cast the first stone...lecturing people about entitlements has no place on this site IMO.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 06:51:12 PM
There's also PAYE plus PSLF for government or nonprofit service. 10 years of relatively small payments, regardless of debt load.

True... but then--after 10 years of paying down debt--your're still making a gov't or non profit salary, unless you're the rare person who is an AUSA or ADA and jumps over to big law white collar defense.

For my part, I'd rather pay off debt in half the time and make 4x the money after 10 years.

Its more of a consensus than my own opinion. If taking your shopping cart to the supermarket every other day for a half gallon of milk and waking up for the second minyan is fulfillment I'd rather not have it. Thats not being judgmental thats just not a living. You may disagree with the label of pathetic but if you catch me doing that at age 55 you have my permission to shoot me. For the record I'm closer to 55 than 25.
I dont resent this guy, or judge him i stated a fact about one government employee who lives a pathetic life. And let he who is without son cast the first stone...lecturing people about entitlements has no place on this site IMO.

With respect, the more you talk the bigger shovel you appear to need.

Whether your acknowledge or realize it, what you're doing is judging someone else for decisions that may work for that person. You're better because you prefer a gallon of milk be picked up by your wife? or that you go to hashkama? More power to you. But make no mistake about it, you're rudely (and I'd say tactlessly) snubbing your nose at anyone who does not join you in celebrating that particular raison d'être.

Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 06:55:55 PM
Youre right. Because you use french and latin you must be right.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 03, 2015, 06:58:24 PM
Youre right. Because you use french and latin you must be right.

Your painfully obvious cop out speaks volumes.

Or as we say in actual Latin, res ipsa loquitur.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: EJB on November 03, 2015, 07:07:25 PM
Your painfully obvious cop out speaks volumes.

Or as we say in actual Latin, res ipsa loquitur.

I'm beginning to think he actually works in heating and cooling...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 03, 2015, 07:11:18 PM
I think you need to read that post again. And apologize while youre at it too. It was an observation about one individual...who i know personally and lives a pathetic existence.
Maybe you should read it again. Just because you say you're not judging and you say you are not generalizing doesn't mean you aren't.

I'm not criticizing you. But you are way off here. I think AJK summed it up well.

(See what i did there, I really was criticizing you, even though I said I wasn't.

I was not saying it as a general statement. If you look at this guy his existence is pathetic. Its not family time he's busy with. It is a mentality of most local government employees. When a cop has a license plate that says 20ANDOUT...meaning he will put in his 20 years and then file for his pension its a mentality. Hes not a law enforcement hero. Hes a stiff making widgets until its time to atop making widgets. Government lawyers in NY for the most part (ADAs that become criminal defense attorneys are the exception) are widget making stiffs who put in their years and then retire without any drive or motivation to grow professionally. That is my definition of a pathetic existence.
Let the games begin...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 07:12:57 PM
Your painfully obvious cop out speaks volumes.

Or as we say in actual Latin, res ipsa loquitur.
Res ipsa youre funny. Stop judging me. ;D Im driving cant respond now.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 03, 2015, 07:16:26 PM
I'll leave this thread to the young guns who think that being a lawyer is everything and the fulfillment of every jewish mother's dream. I worked in heating and I am a lawyer. So you guys gonahead and fight the good fight do what you wish to make yourself feel fulfilled. End of story. I have no further comment here.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2015, 07:30:57 PM
I'm confused
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on November 03, 2015, 07:33:05 PM
I'm confused

It's okay; you're not alone. So is hvaces42.  ;D
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 04, 2015, 07:29:50 AM
Maybe we need a thread for everyone's hot buttons.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 08:34:03 AM
Maybe we need a thread for everyone's hot buttons.
I said I wouldnt post here anymore. In response to CM's comment I was just thinking about starting a thread titled "Personal Opinions, Societal Norms, Individualism and Being Judgmental" It seems that if you have an opinion on something or someone, you're judgmental. Societal norms do not exist anymore. Its a free for all and if you comment on something, or someone, you're tarred as "being judgmental". Probably a generational thing.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 04, 2015, 09:31:40 AM
Probably a generational thing.
+1
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 10:07:58 AM
There's also PAYE plus PSLF for government or nonprofit service. 10 years of relatively small payments, regardless of debt load.

This.  I'm feeling very comfortable with IBR and 200K+ from lawschool and a good life/balance (read: lower paying) job.  In fact, getting the most out of the loan repayment systems available to individuals feels a lot like getting the most out of points/deals opportunities.  I think it's using the same brain center.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 10:15:20 AM
Don't forget the IBR tax bomb at the end.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 10:25:37 AM
+1
Just checked 15+ year age difference and 10 year bar admission. Its definitely a generational thing. 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 04, 2015, 11:14:41 AM
This.  I'm feeling very comfortable with IBR and 200K+ from lawschool and a good life/balance (read: lower paying) job.  In fact, getting the most out of the loan repayment systems available to individuals feels a lot like getting the most out of points/deals opportunities.  I think it's using the same brain center.

So you pay some fraction of your income for 20 or 25 years, which will still be hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then the balance is forgiven. Then what?

Somehow I only see the connection between IBR and helping with massive student debt; I don't see how IBR helps after forgiveness and one is still making the same salary...

And that's not even the worst part, as seen below.

Don't forget the IBR tax bomb at the end.

I admit I didn't know about this, but it makes perfect sense. Forgiven loans = income under the Code. Yikes.

So, in reality, you pay for 20-25 years, and then you get hit with a massive tax bomb on the end. Say, for example, one has $75,000 forgiven at the end of the 25 years. That same year, depending on the tax bracket of the individual, he or she could easily be smacked with a tax bill of almost $20,000--and that's on top of the income tax he or she owes that year AND it's due immediately.

And this is the stuff that should be contemplated before jumping into law school, or indeed any degree.

Either (i) get a full scholarship (whether via the institution, Uncle Sam or Great Uncle Shmulie), (ii) go to a T-14 school (increasing your odds of landing a big law job) or (iii) work in Public Service and have your loan forgiven after 10 years (though that still has the same caveats as mentioned in my first post, though less the tax bomb).
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 04, 2015, 11:24:12 AM
I said I wouldnt post here anymore. In response to CM's comment I was just thinking about starting a thread titled "Personal Opinions, Societal Norms, Individualism and Being Judgmental" It seems that if you have an opinion on something or someone, you're judgmental. Societal norms do not exist anymore. Its a free for all and if you comment on something, or someone, you're tarred as "being judgmental". Probably a generational thing.
Be judgmental all you want, just try and sound a little less like a giant d-bag when you do it.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on November 04, 2015, 11:27:22 AM
Be judgmental all you want, just try and sound a little less like a giant d-bag when you do it.
LOL
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 11:38:52 AM
Be judgmental all you want, just try and sound a little less like a giant d-bag when you do it.
Generational, definitely. Go cry to your mommy that I judged you. You can call me a douchebag (quit your phony frumkeit) but i cant call someone's pathetic existence, pathetic.

Get the popcorn guys. Its gonna get ugly.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on November 04, 2015, 11:45:18 AM
Generational, definitely. Go cry to your mommy that I judged you. You can call me a douchebag (quit your phony frumkeit) but i cant call someone's pathetic existence, pathetic.

Calling someone's life a pathetic existence is subjective. Calling you a douchebag is objective. That's the difference.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 04, 2015, 11:46:28 AM
Generational, definitely. You can call me a douchebag (quit your phony frumkeit) but i cant call someone's pathetic existence, pathetic.

Get the popcorn guys. Its gonna get ugly.
Quite the contrary - I freely admit that calling you a d-bag is not the right thing to do. I guess you just bring out the best in me.

I suppose it would be different story if people agreed with your assessment of the type of people you describe (or at least the one person you have in mind, now that you backtracked on that as well), but it wouldn't make you any less of a jerk for the way you presented that assessment.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 11:47:49 AM
In my situation the present value of reducing AGI through legal means and committing to IBR (401k contributions, HSAs, capitalizing a small business and not taking a draw, etc.) far outweighed the present value of regular or extended payment even when figuring a 60% top tax bracket at time of forgiveness and full inclusion of the forgiven debt income.  And full inclusion isn't even a given.  Despite the statement that "Forgiven loans = income under the Code," there's more to the story than that.

I agree that this is stuff that needs to be considered, and indeed I did not consider it but was instead lucky to be able to fall back into it. I'm not recommending that anyone go to law school without carefully considering their financial situation now AND in the future.  However, "regular" brand IBR (or not REPAYE) can work for some student-taxpayers in the right circumstances.  I should also note that those situations are probably lessened now that current borrowers are subject to REPAYE and no longer IBR.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 04, 2015, 11:50:42 AM
In my situation the present value of reducing AGI through legal means and committing to IBR (401k contributions, HSAs, capitalizing a small business and not taking a draw, etc.) far outweighed the present value of regular or extended payment even when figuring a 60% top tax bracket at time of forgiveness and full inclusion of the forgiven debt income.  And full inclusion isn't even a given.  Despite the statement that "Forgiven loans = income under the Code," there's more to the story than that.

I agree that this is stuff that needs to be considered, and indeed I did not consider it but was instead lucky to be able to fall back into it. I'm not recommending that anyone go to law school without carefully considering their financial situation now AND in the future.  However, "regular" brand IBR (or not REPAYE) can work for some student-taxpayers in the right circumstances.  I should also note that those situations are probably lessened now that current borrowers are subject to REPAYE and no longer IBR.

Can you give me some numbers?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 11:52:30 AM
Quite the contrary - I freely admit that calling you a d-bag is not the right thing to do. I guess you just bring out the best in me.

I suppose it would be different story if people agreed with your assessment of the type of people you describe (or at least the one person you have in mind, now that you backtracked on that as well), but it wouldn't make you any less of a jerk for the way you presented that assessment.
So name calling is allowed but judgment isnt. Gotcha. Now its jerk, before it was douchebag. Go on...

I dont need you or anyone to agree with my assessment of what i view as a pathetic existence. Mob rule doesnt quite make this true or untrue. So what you think of me is none of my business.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 04, 2015, 11:54:36 AM
So name calling is allowed but judgment isnt. Gotcha. Now its jerk, before it was douchebag. Go on...
I didn't say it's allowed. I'm freely admitting my 'transgression', whereas you've yet to claim your's. Not that I equate the two, but that discussion can't be broached if you don't think you did anything wrong.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 11:59:56 AM
I didn't say it's allowed. I'm freely admitting my 'transgression', whereas you've yet to claim your's. Not that I equate the two, but that discussion can't be broached if you don't think you did anything wrong.
What do i have to claim? Am i not entitled to an opinion? Or because it doesn't comport with your pontificating sensibilities its a "transgression" which requires penance?

Who died and left you in charge? Political correctness at its worst. Opinions are not allowed unless they're ours.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 04, 2015, 12:04:38 PM
What do i have to claim? Am i not entitled to an opinion? Or because it doesn't comport with your pontificating sensibilities its a "transgression" which requires penance?
Of course you are entitled to your opinion. And if you had expressed said opinion respectfully and coherently, you'd have seen a much different conversation. Instead, you chose a rude and obnoxious way to express that opinion, one that dripped with contempt and condescension. I doubt my saying so will change your attitude, but you asked, so I obliged.

ETA:
Who died and left you in charge? Political correctness at its worst. Opinions are not allowed unless they're ours.
Most people put ETA so others know you added something. Just FYI.

Simply put, if I had made a comment like your's, I'd absolutely want to know that others thought it was out of line. I'm just giving you my opinion, my reaction to your comment - as have many others in this thread. What you do with that feedback is up to you.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 04, 2015, 12:05:58 PM
What do i have to claim? Am i not entitled to an opinion? Or because it doesn't comport with your pontificating sensibilities its a "transgression" which requires penance?

Who died and left you in charge? Political correctness at its worst. Opinions are not allowed unless they're ours.

I don't want to get roped into this again (though I will point out you very obviously side-stepped my questions yesterday), but there is a difference between offering an opinion in a respectful way, and passing judgment in a tactless way. No one here is suggesting you don't have a right to an opinion (in fact you'd be surprised to learn that my opinion on this new-fangled "PC movement" is closely in line with yours--when does it end?), we are however suggesting that the manner in which you offered that opinion was over the line from benign and innocuous opinion into an elitest judgment.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 12:10:49 PM
I don't want to get roped into this again (though I will point out you very obviously side-stepped my questions yesterday), but there is a difference between offering an opinion in a respectful way, and passing judgment in a tactless way. No one here is suggesting you don't have a right to an opinion (in fact you'd be surprised to learn that my opinion on this new-fangled "PC movement" is closely in line with yours--when does it end?), we are however suggesting that the manner in which you offered that opinion was over the line from opinion into passing judgment, almost in an elitist way.
Im done with this too. When it devolves into name calling I call it a day. It was in no way elitist. It was an opinion of one person, call it judgmental if you wish, who has chosen a government job so that he doesnt have to work too hard and has now retired and is wasting away in G-ds waiting room at age 60. My opinion of someone like that is that their existence is pathetic. If you deem that elitist or judgmental, you are judging me and my opinions. So lets just leave it alone and move on.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 12:15:26 PM
My model is on home computer. 

However, just look at the present value of 60% of 500k (if they even grew that big) with a 5.25% discount rate.  It's like 80k.  Obviously the present value of the IBR payment adds up too, but essentially you end up paying exactly what your borrowed or less, and the bulk of it in 25 years!  And if you're skilled at lowering your above the line AGI and you believe the proper discount rate is higher, even better.  Now, if you use a discount rate of 3% it's tighter (141k PV on the tax bomb of 500k @ 60%) but even that is probably within the range of acceptable for me... though this one likely crosses over the PV of regular 10yr repayments when using a 60% highest marginal rate on 500k of balance. 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 12:22:21 PM
As a practical matter, if your iBR payments don't even cover interest accrual, and you end up with a 200k inclusion at say 33 percent, we're talking a 66k tax bomb. Granted you have 25 years to plan for it, but its real yo.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 12:36:52 PM
LOL i'm basically recreating my model at work now when I know I have it saved on home PC.  This stuff is fun.

Look at a loan balance of 200k @ 7% interest and an income of 80k in traditional IBR.  Single borrower, 20k poverty line,  22k of sheltered income (18k 401k, 4k HSA). Traditional IBR is 15% of discretionary income above the poverty line, in this hypo that's 38k or 5700/yr or $450/mo.  Assume this is the same for 25 years just for illustrative purposes, im sure everyone will have scenarios where this taxpayers sitch changes for better or worse. 

14k of interest per year reduced by 5700 in payments is an additional 207500 in interest which is not capitalized until the end.  Total forgiveness of 407500.  At today's highest rate 39.6% that'd be a tax bill of 161370 with a PV of 46k.  Add in the annuity PV of 5700/yr at 5% which is MORE than the tax bomb payment @ 79k and you have a total PV of 125k.  Use regular repayment (10yr) and the same 5% and the PV of payments (i approximated 2500/mo) is 230k. 


Change the numbers and surely this can flip the other way.  But it's not undoable in the right circumstances. 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 12:43:06 PM
LOL i'm basically recreating my model at work now when I know I have it saved on home PC.  This stuff is fun.

Look at a loan balance of 200k @ 7% interest and an income of 80k in traditional IBR.  Single borrower, 20k poverty line,  22k of sheltered income (18k 401k, 4k HSA). Traditional IBR is 15% of discretionary income above the poverty line, in this hypo that's 38k or 5700/yr or $450/mo.  Assume this is the same for 25 years just for illustrative purposes, im sure everyone will have scenarios where this taxpayers sitch changes for better or worse. 

14k of interest per year reduced by 5700 in payments is an additional 207500 in interest which is not capitalized until the end.  Total forgiveness of 407500.  At today's highest rate 39.6% that'd be a tax bill of 161370 with a PV of 46k.  Add in the annuity PV of 5700/yr at 5% which is MORE than the tax bomb payment @ 79k and you have a total PV of 125k.  Use regular repayment (10yr) and the same 5% and the PV of payments (i approximated 2500/mo) is 230k. 


Change the numbers and surely this can flip the other way.  But it's not undoable in the right circumstances.

Absolutely fascinating.

The problem I have with PVing everything is that you don't also have 200k somewhere collecting returns of 5%.  So while the true PV may be lower, you still will have that tax bill and nothing to pay it with. (try telling tuition committee you need to save 5k a year to pay your tax bomb in 25 years.)
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
Absolutely fascinating.

The problem I have with PVing everything is that you don't also have 200k somewhere collecting returns of 5%.  So while the true PV may be lower, you still will have that tax bill and nothing to pay it with. (try telling tuition committee you need to save 5k a year to pay your tax bomb in 25 years.)
Weren't us lawyers supposed to be bad at math and that's why we chose this career path?  ;D
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 01:22:57 PM
Weren't us lawyers supposed to be bad at math and that's why we chose this career path?  ;D

me be tax lawyer
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 04, 2015, 01:29:15 PM
Weren't us lawyers supposed to be bad at math and that's why we chose this career path?  ;D
No they just don't excel at math. Minimal tasks like figuring out your bill they have no problem with.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: hvaces42 on November 04, 2015, 02:15:13 PM
me be tax lawyer
We know that. Still not an excuse for actuarial calculations on your IBR hedge. This is DDF its 31.7% and move on.  ::)
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 02:41:50 PM
Ooooo I forgot the $116/mo pre-tax for your metro card!
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 04, 2015, 02:51:46 PM
Ooooo I forgot the $116/mo pre-tax for your metro card!
what does that have to do with being a lawyer
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 03:22:13 PM
It has to do with financing a legal education with an income driven repayment option.  $17.40 less a month for IBR enrollees (though it is $17.40*.396 more in the final tax bomb).
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: dealfinder85 on November 04, 2015, 03:23:39 PM
It has to do with financing a legal education with an income driven repayment option.  $17.40 less a month for IBR enrollees (though it is $17.40*.396 more in the final tax bomb).
i dont know all this loan jargon, but why cant you get a pre tax metrocard through your company?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 03:26:16 PM
It does and anyone can and for everyone else it has the benefit of lowering you income.  For certain loans (common for some lawyers and grad students) lowering your income doesnt just save you tax money but it also lowers your payments.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 04, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
I have a feeling that the "tax bomb" for forgiven student loans is going to be done away with in the coming years, similar to the waiver for short sales.  Just a feeling though.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 03:31:43 PM
I'm definitely not planning on it, nor should anyone.  But if I were a betting man, i'd agree.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 04, 2015, 03:33:04 PM
Definitely don't plan on it.  I was just saying..

There's gotta be student loan reform on the horizon.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: kangarruu on November 04, 2015, 03:52:38 PM
LOL i'm basically recreating my model at work now when I know I have it saved on home PC.  This stuff is fun.

Look at a loan balance of 200k @ 7% interest and an income of 80k in traditional IBR.  Single borrower, 20k poverty line,  22k of sheltered income (18k 401k, 4k HSA). Traditional IBR is 15% of discretionary income above the poverty line, in this hypo that's 38k or 5700/yr or $450/mo.  Assume this is the same for 25 years just for illustrative purposes, im sure everyone will have scenarios where this taxpayers sitch changes for better or worse. 

14k of interest per year reduced by 5700 in payments is an additional 207500 in interest which is not capitalized until the end.  Total forgiveness of 407500.  At today's highest rate 39.6% that'd be a tax bill of 161370 with a PV of 46k.  Add in the annuity PV of 5700/yr at 5% which is MORE than the tax bomb payment @ 79k and you have a total PV of 125k.  Use regular repayment (10yr) and the same 5% and the PV of payments (i approximated 2500/mo) is 230k. 


Change the numbers and surely this can flip the other way.  But it's not undoable in the right circumstances.

Don't forget that the tax bomb is capped at solvency.

Could you also run the numbers for PSLF?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 04:02:35 PM
Don't forget that the tax bomb is capped at solvency.

Could you also run the numbers for PSLF?

Don't give away all the tricks, save some for the Seminars!  Just like DDMS/DDF.

Don't have the PV calc handy, it's about the PV of 10 years of 57,000 @ a 60k salary and little to no sheltering.   Stupid silly crazy cheap with zero tax bomb.  I'd guess less than 40k.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 05:27:47 PM
Don't forget that the tax bomb is capped at solvency.

Could you also run the numbers for PSLF?

I'd sure hate to work for 25 years and then be insolvent.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 04, 2015, 05:54:27 PM
I'd sure hate to work for 25 years and then be insolvent.

Irrevocable trusts and other protected assets?  You're the tax guy, but I'm sure there are ways to feign insolvency. 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 05:56:57 PM
Capitalized businesses LLC's, unlimited homestead exemptions...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 04, 2015, 06:00:57 PM
The IRS is good at its job.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 04, 2015, 06:05:29 PM
There's nothing contra to the code about pre-bankruptcy planning.  People are doing it right now and the IRS does nothing.  It's not for everyone, but it's legal and in many instances, including tax-bomb planning, it is the best long term financial decision.

Regardless of negating the tax bomb, IDP is very often the better choice for repayment.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 07:11:36 AM
Say if they forgave 200k at the end. How much would the tax-bomb be?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 05, 2015, 09:32:12 AM
Depends on tax bracket, but assuming 33%, it'd be about $67k.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 09:34:44 AM
What am I missing then? 200k relief for 67k? Where do I sign up? Can a do a few million?  :)
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: EJB on November 05, 2015, 09:42:29 AM
What am I missing then? 200k relief for 67k? Where do I sign up? Can a do a few million?  :)

You don't get a better return w/ MS? I'm disappointing w/ you
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 09:47:46 AM
You don't get a better return w/ MS? I'm disappointing w/ you
I do but as they say why not do both.  :P
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 05, 2015, 09:50:47 AM
What am I missing then? 200k relief for 67k? Where do I sign up? Can a do a few million?  :)

NOT SERIOUS RECOMMENDATION:

Find some sucker bank to over-appraise your house and lend you more cash than it's worth.
Short sale it in 6 months.
Profit.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 05, 2015, 09:52:41 AM
What am I missing then? 200k relief for 67k? Where do I sign up? Can a do a few million?  :)
Two things:

1) people don't expect the bomb *at all*, so having to scrounge up 70k which is payable immediately is both shocking and difficult.

2) you only get the forgiveness after you've paid some variable monthly payment for 20 or 25 years, depending on income. I haven't run the math, but over that course of time,  one could easily pay more than the 200k he or she borrowed, which means you're out 270k.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 05, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
I would assume some sort of refinancing it the most common way to pay it.  20-25 years out you should have equity in something, if not actual cash to write a check.  Then again, I only have 1 tuition..
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 09:59:37 AM
I would assume some sort of refinancing it the most common way to pay it.  20-25 years out you should have equity in something, if not actual cash to write a check.  Then again, I only have 1 tuition..
After 20-25 years won't you be making the BIG bucks?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 05, 2015, 10:01:18 AM
After 20-25 years won't you be making the BIG bucks?

You would hope.  I know people that burn out early, or make more investment choices, or just have holes in their pockets and heavy spending habits.  Not everyone saves for a rainy day.

I've never had to really think about all this, fortunately.  Thank you mom and dad.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 05, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
After 20-25 years won't you be making the BIG bucks?

If you are you have to pay it all back...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 10:03:36 AM
If you are you have to pay it all back...
There is always a catch.  >:(
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 05, 2015, 10:05:02 AM
You would hope.  I know people that burn out early, or make more investment choices, or just have holes in their pockets and heavy spending habits.  Not everyone saves for a rainy day.

I've never had to really think about all this, fortunately.  Thank you mom and dad.
Note to self: Have daughter read this.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: AJK on November 05, 2015, 10:08:39 AM
You would hope.  I know people that burn out early, or make more investment choices, or just have holes in their pockets and heavy spending habits.  Not everyone saves for a rainy day.

I've never had to really think about all this, fortunately.  Thank you mom and dad.
Oh how fortunate you are.

Reminds me of a story: guy goes out to dinner with his parents after graduating medical school. On the way out of the restaurant, the dad says, "oh, by the way, check your loan balances tomorrow."

Next day he checks to see that his balance went from $300k to... $0.

Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Aaaron on November 05, 2015, 10:12:09 AM
Oh how fortunate you are.

Reminds me of a story: guy goes out to dinner with his parents after graduating medical school. On the way out of the restaurant, the dad says, "oh, by the way, check your loan balances tomorrow."

Next day he checks to see that his balance went from $300k to... $0.

Nice. 

Yeah, I recognize that I'm fortunate and it may not be the norm.  But I also went to state schools through and through to make it more affordable.  If I wanted to go to Columbia or Georgetown my parents would only cover the cost of MD.

On the other end of the story spectrum:  My close law school friend asked her parents to refi one of their summer homes to pay off her debt, and she would pay off the new loan which would have had a MUCH lower interest rate.  Her financial adviser brother convinced them not to in case she died..  :-\
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: GTR on November 05, 2015, 10:26:21 AM
Absolutely fascinating.

The problem I have with PVing everything is that you don't also have 200k somewhere collecting returns of 5%.  So while the true PV may be lower, you still will have that tax bill and nothing to pay it with. (try telling tuition committee you need to save 5k a year to pay your tax bomb in 25 years.)

If one is contemplating rapid repayment (or even what's termed regular repayment) vs. IBR or some other IDP it is proper to PV the values.  Assuming you borrowed the $ for lawschool (no scholarships) and assuming you will pay it back, you DO have the money.   This is most relevant when asking oneself "should i pay down debt ASAP or reduce my above the line and shoot for forgiveness."  A dollar not spent on aggressively paying down loans IS a dollar you have for investment. 

Sure an ideal view of the situation would take into account peoples inability to view current financial status in relation to some future status, people are really bad at that.  But the fact of the matter is someone who aggressively pays down a graduate loan is very possibly costing themselves 10's or 100's of thousands in the future.  And again, I only mean this to apply to certain "middle of the road" type earners, at least relative to the legal industry.  If at any time you believe that you'll fall out of IBR and trigger normal payments by earning around 175-200k, this isn't the best path since the earlier years of IBR will cause you to pay more interest.  And that person WILL earn more money in the long run.  This is ideal for anyone hanging a shingle (or starting any small business) or someone who is partially financially secure already, or anyone who doesn't mind deferring compensation.

Next i'll introduce my Married Filing Separately module.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 05, 2015, 10:26:30 AM
Nice. 

Yeah, I recognize that I'm fortunate and it may not be the norm.  But I also went to state schools through and through to make it more affordable.  If I wanted to go to Columbia or Georgetown my parents would only cover the cost of MD.

On the other end of the story spectrum:  My close law school friend asked her parents to refi one of their summer homes to pay off her debt, and she would pay off the new loan which would have had a MUCH lower interest rate.  Her financial adviser brother convinced them not to in case she died..  :-\
That's what life insurance is for. All parent loans should be sure the kid has it.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 05, 2015, 10:34:00 AM
If one is contemplating rapid repayment (or even what's termed regular repayment) vs. IBR or some other IDP it is proper to PV the values.  Assuming you borrowed the $ for lawschool (no scholarships) and assuming you will pay it back, you DO have the money.   This is most relevant when asking oneself "should i pay down debt ASAP or reduce my above the line and shoot for forgiveness."  A dollar not spent on aggressively paying down loans IS a dollar you have for investment. 

Sure an ideal view of the situation would take into account peoples inability to view current financial status in relation to some future status, people are really bad at that.  But the fact of the matter is someone who aggressively pays down a graduate loan is very possibly costing themselves 10's or 100's of thousands in the future.  And again, I only mean this to apply to certain "middle of the road" type earners, at least relative to the legal industry.  If at any time you believe that you'll fall out of IBR and trigger normal payments by earning around 175-200k, this isn't the best path since the earlier years of IBR will cause you to pay more interest.  And that person WILL earn more money in the long run.  This is ideal for anyone hanging a shingle (or starting any small business) or someone who is partially financially secure already, or anyone who doesn't mind deferring compensation.

Next i'll introduce my Married Filing Separately module.

Yes, but the IBR guy has no savings and couldn't pay down anyway. The non-iBR route is to work at a high pressure job that pays more.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on November 05, 2015, 10:51:13 AM
That's what life insurance is for. All parent loans should be sure the kid has it.
I was thinking the same thing, but depending on the details of the loans, it could cost more than the savings of shifting the debt.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on November 05, 2015, 11:00:54 AM
Nice. 

Yeah, I recognize that I'm fortunate and it may not be the norm.  But I also went to state schools through and through to make it more affordable.  If I wanted to go to Columbia or Georgetown my parents would only cover the cost of MD.

On the other end of the story spectrum:  My close law school friend asked her parents to refi one of their summer homes to pay off her debt, and she would pay off the new loan which would have had a MUCH lower interest rate.  Her financial adviser brother convinced them not to in case she died..  :-\

Honestly, if they own multiple summer homes without debt, I'd think they'd be willing to take risk that if their daughter died they'd be out 300k. 

If that's what it's like having rich parents, I'm sure glad I don't.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 05, 2015, 11:07:49 AM
I was thinking the same thing, but depending on the details of the loans, it could cost more than the savings of shifting the debt.
Your talking under $300 a year on a $200,000 loan. That's a bargain. And not a bad thing to have either.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 05, 2015, 11:09:08 AM
Honestly, if they own multiple summer homes without debt, I'd think they'd be willing to take risk that if their daughter died they'd be out 300k. 

If that's what it's like having rich parents, I'm sure glad I don't.
True if they are wealthy. Multiple homes doesn't equal wealth.

How about loaning form a $200k retirement fund your folks have been putting money into the past 25 years... You'd need life insurance on the kid.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: blerbz on November 06, 2015, 06:25:22 AM
Two things:

1) people don't expect the bomb *at all*, so having to scrounge up 70k which is payable immediately is both shocking and difficult.

2) you only get the forgiveness after you've paid some variable monthly payment for 20 or 25 years, depending on income. I haven't run the math, but over that course of time,  one could easily pay more than the 200k he or she borrowed, which means you're out 270k.
You may be out 270k but that's better than being out 350k+ if paying in full with interest (I'm approximating)
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on December 01, 2015, 02:29:41 AM
Ok what are bonuses gonna be like people? I'm getting tired of waiting for some old fart to decide to just do the same thing someone else did last year.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on December 01, 2015, 08:04:11 AM
Ok what are bonuses gonna be like people? I'm getting tired of waiting for some old fart to decide to just do the same thing someone else did last year.
Doubt the scale will go up again. Two years in a row? Nah. I'm waiting until salary news comes out. NY to 190k?
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 01, 2015, 08:48:52 AM
Doubt the scale will go up again. Two years in a row? Nah. I'm waiting until salary news comes out. NY to 190k?

I'm betting up.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 01, 2015, 08:49:19 AM
Also, just to make sure we're all following http://www.dailylawyertips.com/
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: eliteflyer on December 01, 2015, 04:51:13 PM
Ok what are bonuses gonna be like people? I'm getting tired of waiting for some old fart to decide to just do the same thing someone else did last year.
FWIW, DPW sent the market up on Tuesday night before Thanksgiving last year and but has not made a peep this year. The next logical time to announce would be the firm holiday party in a week from now.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on December 01, 2015, 07:24:31 PM
Also, just to make sure we're all following http://www.dailylawyertips.com/
love a lot of stuff on that, but wish they focused on quality instead of quantity. Shouldn't lawyers focus on quality/prestige over pages/total hours?
I'm afraid bonuses are gonna start flat and then there will need to be a correction/top-up early next year (or later), but that will just force me to wait for my boni... 
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: CS91 on December 01, 2015, 07:25:25 PM
love a lot of stuff on that, but wish they focused on quality instead of quantity. Shouldn't lawyers focus on quality/prestige over pages/total hours?
I'm afraid bonuses are gonna start flat and then there will need to be a correction/top-up early next year (or later), but that will just force me to wait for my boni...
Do people really think that they're gonna be lower than they were last year? I would assume that they'd at least stay at the same level.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 07, 2015, 04:05:12 PM
Cravath opened with last year's DPW scale. http://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/associate-bonus-watch-cravath-announces-its-2015-associate-bonuses/
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on December 07, 2015, 04:36:08 PM
Every time I read things like this it makes me sad
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 07, 2015, 04:53:35 PM


Every time I read things like this it makes me sad

I'm not sad. I'm getting a larger bonus than what many jobs pay in annual salary.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on December 07, 2015, 05:19:32 PM

I'm not sad. I'm getting a larger bonus than what many jobs pay in annual salary.
Thanks for rubbing it in
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 07, 2015, 05:51:17 PM
Thanks for rubbing it in

Oops, sorry, I misread your tone.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on December 07, 2015, 08:06:44 PM
Thanks for rubbing it in
I broke my fibula motzei shabbos, but we are still trying to get a deal signed, so i've billed 30+ hours since then, including calls and providing comments in waiting rooms. i am in severe pain and a bit loopy. be happy with your job, the grass always seems greener.
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 07, 2015, 08:12:16 PM
I broke my fibula motzei shabbos, but we are still trying to get a deal signed, so i've billed 30+ hours since then, including calls and providing comments in waiting rooms. i am in severe pain and a bit loopy. be happy with your job, the grass always seems greener.

And don't forget that the dude who billed 1900 hours and never worked a second past midnight will get the same bonus as you...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer Master Thread
Post by: shiframeir on December 07, 2015, 09:17:21 PM
And don't forget that the dude who billed 1900 hours and never worked a second past midnight will get the same bonus as you...
that's technically not true at my firm but would be true at many others...
Title: Re: Going To Law School & Pros And Cons Of Being A Lawyer