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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: myb821 on March 05, 2012, 08:38:55 PM

Title: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: myb821 on March 05, 2012, 08:38:55 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/03/05/newborn-dies-after-contracting-herpes-from-controversial-circumcision-ritual/?test=latestnews
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 08:41:17 PM
Oy, here we go.......
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: sky121 on March 05, 2012, 08:41:42 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/03/05/newborn-dies-after-contracting-herpes-from-controversial-circumcision-ritual/?test=latestnews

Baruch Dayan Emes....very sad news..
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 08:45:00 PM
In the past some scummy mohels have kept practicing even after knowing that they contracted herpes.  I pray this wasn't the case this time...
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: myb821 on March 05, 2012, 08:45:48 PM
Oy, here we go.......
sorry but i saw it and couldnt help posting. Dont most rebbeim  paskin that it is ok to use a separation?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: myb821 on March 05, 2012, 08:46:23 PM
In the past some scummy mohels have kept practicing even after knowing that they contracted herpes.  I pray this wasn't the case this time...
+1
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Saver2000 on March 05, 2012, 08:49:21 PM
Bde. This happened 6 months ago. Why is it in todays news?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: rivkyw on March 05, 2012, 09:32:31 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/03/05/newborn-dies-after-contracting-herpes-from-controversial-circumcision-ritual/?test=latestnews
mohelim need to make sure they get tested.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 09:37:33 PM
Does the mohel need to do the metzitza b'peh or can anyone do it?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: meshugener on March 05, 2012, 09:38:45 PM
Why dont the govt require all the mohalim to get license?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: kracked dude on March 05, 2012, 10:20:22 PM
Does the mohel need to do the metzitza b'peh or can anyone do it?
IME anyone can do it. i was by a bris recently and the mohel had a sore in his mouth so he gave the honor to sombody else
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: michael on March 05, 2012, 10:21:05 PM
I did it on my kids. The mohel was nervous about potential ramifications.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 10:24:20 PM
The mohel was nervous about potential ramifications.
Such as?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: michael on March 05, 2012, 10:26:18 PM
Such as?

It was a few years ago, right after the Fisher saga. He wasn't nervous about any specific problems per se, just a general apprehension about doing metzitza.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: good sam on March 05, 2012, 11:24:46 PM
The mohel might be criminally prosecuted
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/breaking_news/brooklyn_da_looking_infants_death_controversial_bris_practice
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 05, 2012, 11:25:48 PM
Does the mohel need to do the metzitza b'peh or can anyone do it?
No he does not he may be "mechabed" s/o else.  the ramba"m seems the custom is that the one who cuts "reveals"(pria) is motzetz and puts on the bandage(obviously not where there is sterile concerns)
In the past some scummy mohels have kept practicing even after knowing that they contracted herpes.  I pray this wasn't the case this time...
A:metzitza?
B: excuse my medical ignorance, is oral herpes contagious via open wounds? i did hear from mosey people that the accusations from a few years ago aren't as clear cut as they sound. can any monsey people weigh in on this?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 11:26:58 PM
The mohel might be criminally prosecuted
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/breaking_news/brooklyn_da_looking_infants_death_controversial_bris_practice
If the mohel knew that he had herpes he ought to rot in jail for life (and even that's being lenient) IMHO.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 11:28:57 PM
A:metzitza?
B: excuse my medical ignorance, is oral herpes contagious via open wounds? i did hear from mosey people that the accusations from a few years ago aren't as clear cut as they sound. can any monsey people weigh in on this?
I mean practicing metzitza b'peh after knowing they have herpes.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 05, 2012, 11:31:07 PM
I mean practicing metzitza b'peh after knowing they have herpes.
:'( if thats the case
Title: Re: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Ergel on March 05, 2012, 11:33:26 PM
If the mohel knew that he had herpes he ought to rot in jail for life (and even that's being lenient) IMHO.
+1
Maybe I am missing something but to my very limited understanding (I have not researched the issue at all) metzizah, let alone b'peh, us not me'akev. isn't this a simple question of pikuach nefesh?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 05, 2012, 11:35:16 PM
+1
Maybe I am missing something but to my very limited understanding (I have not researched the issue at all) metzizah, let alone b'peh, us not me'akev. isn't this a simple question of pikuach nefesh?
I don't think 1 death out of hundreds of thousands is called pikuach nefesh enough to start changing age old traditions, otherwise we also would stop fasting on fast days, etc.
Title: Re: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 05, 2012, 11:37:43 PM
+1
Maybe I am missing something but to my very limited understanding (I have not researched the issue at all) metzizah, let alone b'peh, us not me'akev
correct, yet it is a halachic danger not to do it.
i did hear from mosey people that the accusations from a few years ago aren't as clear cut as they sound. can any monsey people weigh in on this?
i was just told by an acquaintance of the monsey mohel, that "he was acquitted back then cause he did not have the virus/same virus the baby RCH"L died from"
any one else hear of this
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: njmacman on March 06, 2012, 12:13:21 PM
Rav Tendler has been saying for years they should do metzitzah on an upside down syringe. BD"E.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 06, 2012, 01:19:44 PM
Rav Tendler has been saying for years they should do metzitzah on an upside down syringe. BD"E.
Rabbi tendler is not the first on this topic, and maybe he would be kind enough of fighting his fight "amongst us" rather than joining the courts on this one...
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Mocha on March 06, 2012, 01:33:03 PM
Rabbi tendler is not the first on this topic, and maybe he would be kind enough of fighting his fight "amongst us" rather than joining the courts on this one...
I don't know the politics nor do I care, but based on your comment it seems that Rabbi Tendler went to the courts last time this happened. If that's the case I find it hard to believe that he did that prior to even trying to speak with the major Rabbanim to hear him out. Now if his pleas fell on deaf ears and he believes that whatever modifications to metzitza are halachically adequate, and furthermore they can avoid deaths r"l, then I completely agree with him overstepping "us" and going to the courts...and I would do the same.

Interesting to see the topic addressed on the website of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
 (http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 06, 2012, 01:34:16 PM
Some halachik articles on the topic.
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2012/03/return-of-metzizah-bpeh-controversy.html
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 06, 2012, 02:41:13 PM
I don't know the politics nor do I care, but based on your comment it seems that Rabbi Tendler went to the courts last time this happened. If that's the case I find it hard to believe that he did that prior to even trying to speak with the major Rabbanim to hear him out. Now if his pleas fell on deaf ears and he believes that whatever modifications to metzitza are halachically adequate, and furthermore they can avoid deaths r"l, then I completely agree with him overstepping "us" and going to the courts...and I would do the same.

Interesting to see the topic addressed on the website of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
 (http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml)
if he got a heter erkaot no problem. yet the outcry of the rabbonim back then didn't seem that way, hey i may be wrong too.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: elikay on March 07, 2012, 08:55:28 PM
Some halachik articles on the topic.
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2012/03/return-of-metzizah-bpeh-controversy.html
Just the web address gives me jitters.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 09, 2012, 08:49:09 AM
Just the web address gives me jitters.

:)
Don't worry, it's just R. Slifkin
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: rivkyw on March 09, 2012, 01:03:41 PM
Does the mohel need to do the metzitza b'peh or can anyone do it?
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Dan on March 09, 2012, 01:05:36 PM
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.
Obviously I'm asking for those (seemingly mostly chassidim) who do deem it an integral part of the milah.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: meshugener on March 09, 2012, 01:59:20 PM
Is there any way to do a test on the mohel before the bris to check if he has any virus?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: elikay on March 10, 2012, 11:50:04 PM
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.
not everyone believes many things are truly necessary ::)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 11, 2012, 10:06:04 AM
:)
Don't worry, it's just R. Slifkin

*it's just N. Slifkin

it gives me jitters too. Yiddishkeit is not to be held up to our "great rational and enlightened minds" even if we have a BA in zoology. Al yemin shehu smol. We submit ourselves to the gadlus of Toras Hashem and real Talmidei Chachamim. Hashem Yerachem.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 12, 2012, 07:19:58 AM
*it's just N. Slifkin

it gives me jitters too. Yiddishkeit is not to be held up to our "great rational and enlightened minds" even if we have a BA in zoology. Al yemin shehu smol. We submit ourselves to the gadlus of Toras Hashem and real Talmidei Chachamim. Hashem Yerachem.

:)
Not even worth responding.
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

Reminds me of what just s/t similar that happened with us recently. My brother in law lives in Beitar Illit, and one of his neighbors left us a stack of old mishpacha and binah magazines since my wife enjoys them. My b-i-l didn't want my sister in law to give them to us due to the recent "ban" against them. In the end, he asked his Rav what to do (imagine that, asking your Rav and not relying on posters hung up ;)) and he said that the ban was for a specific type of community, and that we could receive them.

It's the underlying idea that different communities require different gedarim to keep them on track. And in the US, the rabbanim initially had no problem with the books for this exact reason.

Either way, we could always start a new thread to discuss further.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 12, 2012, 08:05:43 AM
Quote
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

That is what I am talking about, his site is "rationalistjudaism" and from his own site it seems clear that he thinks his own brain is smarter, more enlightened, rational and reliable than the Rabanim who wrote Haskamos for his books. I am sorry for him, I assume he is a nice guy.

Quote
Not even worth responding.
pm sent
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 12, 2012, 08:15:19 AM
pm sent

I responded with a pm. I'll consider the topic closed in the forum unless it's continued by others.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: moish on March 12, 2012, 08:34:36 AM
:)
Not even worth responding.
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

Reminds me of what just s/t similar that happened with us recently. My brother in law lives in Beitar Illit, and one of his neighbors left us a stack of old mishpacha and binah magazines since my wife enjoys them. My b-i-l didn't want my sister in law to give them to us due to the recent "ban" against them. In the end, he asked his Rav what to do (imagine that, asking your Rav and not relying on posters hung up ;)) and he said that the ban was for a specific type of community, and that we could receive them.

It's the underlying idea that different communities require different gedarim to keep them on track. And in the US, the rabbanim initially had no problem with the books for this exact reason.

Either way, we could always start a new thread to discuss further.
what a joke... comparing kefira to a political disagreement
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 12, 2012, 12:46:25 PM
 If there is a posibilty that a infant can be infected with a deadly disease via MBP transfered to the baby from the fluids in the mouth of the Mohel, the very least we can do is make people aware of that possibilty and give them choices. Chamira Sakanta MeiIsura.   
   
Someone made a comparison the the practice of bloodletting. There was a lot of that going on during the days of Chzal and it continued to be considered a medically benefial procedure through most of the 19th century. Chazal even permitted violation of Shabbos if necessary. It was believed that it was a lifesaving medical treatment.   
   
How many Poskim would permit violating Shabbos for bloodletting today? The answer is zero. Not only that I don't think there is a Posek alive today that would permit bloodletting at all even on a weekday.   
   
The Gemarah is clear. the entire purpose of Metzitza is for the health of the baby. They understood the importance pre-empting Sakana. The life of the baby was more important Shabbos. It should certainly be more imprtant than any stigma MBP might get because of informing the public about its possible dangers.

Courtesy to Harry Maryles
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 12, 2012, 02:46:51 PM
what a joke... comparing kefira to a political disagreement

I'm assuming you read the language on the ban. According to the Rabbanim that (supposedly) signed, it was assur to read them. Not a political disagreement.

Now... if you want to say that in reality, ppl pulled the wool over their eyes to advance their own interests, and used the rabbanim towards that end, well... I can't imagine you would ever admit that the rabbanim could ever be played this way.

But choose, did they pasken it's assur, or did they say it's assur even though it's a simple 'political disagreement'? Seems to be a catch-22
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: moish on March 12, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
I'm assuming you read the language on the ban. According to the Rabbanim that (supposedly) signed, it was assur to read them. Not a political disagreement.

Now... if you want to say that in reality, ppl pulled the wool over their eyes to advance their own interests, and used the rabbanim towards that end, well... I can't imagine you would ever admit that the rabbanim could ever be played this way.

But choose, did they pasken it's assur, or did they say it's assur even though it's a simple 'political disagreement'? Seems to be a catch-22
call it what you want, but it doesnt come anywhere close to kefira

btw zoo rabbi is no longer orthodox. he created a new category for himself called 'post orthodox'
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 12, 2012, 06:54:39 PM
Don't know how this topic turned into Slifkin B"RY, But I can tell you his R"Y gave a haskamah on his first book, and will never give a haskamah on a sefer no matter who wrote it, since then. His R"Y holds him to be a kofer as does any frum jew who believes in torah from sinai. He holds himself to be the biggest chuchem around, claims he's going in shitas Harambam and Reb Sahmshon Refoel Hirsh, even though he claims he's from the rationalist camp and that anyone who's from the traditionalist camp is a dimwit and stupid, which i infer to mean everyone besides the Rambam and R' Hirsh. Yes, He has a question if the Ramban is a kofer. Yes he has a question if one should make a birchas hatorah on words of chazal that were refuted by science, (even though science is constantly changing and developing new theories) and even though with his bird brain he dosen't realize that there is tremendous depth and sirei torah in every word of chazal. Who does he repect? Shimon persky a.k.a. Shimon peres, who slifkin was kvelling over that he got to eat lunch with. He has no qualms whatsoever mocking gedolei torah of today and yesteryear.

I can just imagine the slifkinites or better known as the maskilim 100 years ago mocking the Gra which claims the whole milchemes gog umagog wil take a total of 12 minutes. They were probobly sarcasticly saying that everyone will come on their horses and swords stretched out and kill each other. Today it is no laughing matter, with iran building nuclear weapons it is only to easy to understand the Gra (especially in light of the pesikta).
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 13, 2012, 11:32:48 AM
Quote
Don't know how this topic turned into Slifkin

Raboisai, lets not talk about this anymore, please.  :-[ There is a lot I want to say and many of you have what to add but I think it is best we end here.

Lmaan Hashalom and let's make a Kiddush Hashem.

Shkoiach!
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 13, 2012, 12:28:14 PM
Raboisai, lets not talk about this anymore, please.  :-[ There is a lot I want to say and many of you have what to add but I think it is best we end here.

Lmaan Hashalom and let's make a Kiddush Hashem.

Shkoiach!

+1
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: dwkl on March 13, 2012, 01:00:38 PM
this happened back in september of 2011 but the news only heard about it recently
at a meeting of mohelim over chanuka this issue was discussed and was agreed all mohelim should gargle listerine which would kill all bactires or any oral herpes infection they may be carrying   
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 13, 2012, 02:30:28 PM
this happened back in september of 2011 but the news only heard about it recently
at a meeting of mohelim over chanuka this issue was discussed and was agreed all mohelim should gargle listerine which would kill all bactires or any oral herpes infection they may be carrying

Do the Listerine breath strips/tabs work? (now with a Chof K Hechsher again)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: David B on March 13, 2012, 02:32:18 PM
Do the Listerine breath strips/tabs work? (now with a Chof K Hechsher again)

No...just make your breath smell fresh...don't kill germs
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 13, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
No...just make your breath smell fresh...don't kill germs

Oh!

OT, does anyone know where I can buy them cheap? I picked up a couple triple packs in Target for a few bucks.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: David B on March 13, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
Oh!

OT, does anyone know where I can buy them cheap? I picked up a couple triple packs in Target for a few bucks.

Costco sells them.  Or use a promo code for soap.com -- they probably have them
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2012, 02:49:57 PM
...100 years ago mocking the Gra which claims the whole milchemes gog umagog wil take a total of 12 minutes. They were probobly sarcasticly saying that everyone will come on their horses and swords stretched out and kill each other. Today it is no laughing matter, with iran building nuclear weapons it is only to easy to understand the Gra (especially in light of the pesikta).

Clear to be more specific please?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 13, 2012, 06:30:29 PM
Clear to be more specific please?

The Pesikta Rabosi (which can be found in the back of the Tana Divei Eliyahu) says that in the end of days, the year moshiach will arive, the nations of the world will quarrel with each other. Paras (todays Iran) will start up with Arabia (probobly today's Saudi Arabia) and arabia will go to Edom (today's west) for advice. Paras will then destroy the whole world. Then all the nations will scream and be confused. The Jewish people will also scream and be confused and they will ask, “Where shall we turn?”  Then G-D will say, “My children, do not fear the time for your redemption has arrived.”

Eerrily similar to today's current events.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2012, 06:38:45 PM
The Pesikta Rabosi (which can be found in the back of the Tana Divei Eliyahu) says that in the end of days, the year moshiach will arive, the nations of the world will quarrel with each other. Paras (todays Iran) will start up with Arabia (probobly today's Saudi Arabia) and arabia will go to Edom (today's west) for advice. Paras will then destroy the whole world. Then all the nations will scream and be confused. The Jewish people will also scream and be confused and they will ask, “Where shall we turn?”  Then G-D will say, “My children, do not fear the time for your redemption has arrived.”

Eerrily similar to today's current events.
I don't think todays west is Edom. Edom was Eisav, Christians are descendants of Yaakov. It might be attractive to liken todays current events to what we know about Moshiach, but don't forget R Akiva said that almost 2,000 years ago.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 13, 2012, 06:51:06 PM
I don't think todays west is Edom. Edom was Eisav, Christians are descendants of Yaakov. It might be attractive to liken todays current events to what we know about Moshiach, but don't forget R Akiva said that almost 2,000 years ago.

The culture and continuation of Edom is deffinitly "the west". The kingdom of Edom itself has been destroyed.

Where did you get that, that today's christians are descendants of Yaakov? Christians are made up of many many many goups. I beleive there is a mahrsha in chagigah or taanis (I forget) on the gemora "garmamya shel Edom" that says it's germany. The original christians went begging for followers and brought in many pagan cults, hence december 25th with it's trees etc;.

R' Akiva thought in the beginning that Bar Kochba was moshiach, but soon after realized he deffinitly was not.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2012, 07:35:42 PM
The Pesikta Rabosi (which can be found in the back of the Tana Divei Eliyahu) says that in the end of days, the year moshiach will arive, the nations of the world will quarrel with each other. Paras (todays Iran) will start up with Arabia (probobly today's Saudi Arabia) and arabia will go to Edom (today's west) for advice. Paras will then destroy the whole world. Then all the nations will scream and be confused. The Jewish people will also scream and be confused and they will ask, “Where shall we turn?”  Then G-D will say, “My children, do not fear the time for your redemption has arrived.”

Eerrily similar to today's current events.

I am quite familiar with this Midrash, but I know it as Yalkut Shimoni # 499 (http://amitay.haifa.ac.il/index.php/%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%98_%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99,_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95_%D7%A1_%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%96_%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%98).

How interesting, in PR it reads Edom (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14055&st=&pgnum=282), and in YS it reads Aram.
Title: Re: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: creditor on March 13, 2012, 08:47:09 PM
I am quite familiar with this Midrash, but I know it as Yalkut Shimoni # 499 (http://amitay.haifa.ac.il/index.php/%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%98_%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99,_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95_%D7%A1_%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%96_%D7%AA%D7%A6%D7%98).

How interesting, in PR it reads Edom (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14055&st=&pgnum=282), and in YS it reads Aram.
PR for pasikta rabasi. and YS for yalkut shimoney. HA HA :))
btw AsherO what page have you linked us to ? [not to mention the img there]
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2012, 09:48:53 PM
The culture and continuation of Edom is deffinitly "the west". The kingdom of Edom itself has been destroyed.

Where did you get that, that today's christians are descendants of Yaakov? Christians are made up of many many many goups. I beleive there is a mahrsha in chagigah or taanis (I forget) on the gemora "garmamya shel Edom" that says it's germany. The original christians went begging for followers and brought in many pagan cults, hence december 25th with it's trees etc;.

R' Akiva thought in the beginning that Bar Kochba was moshiach, but soon after realized he deffinitly was not.
doesn't the gemara say germany is Amelek?
What cultural elemnts of Edom are continued by christians?

My point was that R Akiva though Moshiach was immenint, but was mistaken. So I don't set much store by those who who are convinced we are in ikvsa demshicha
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2012, 11:08:19 PM
btw AsherO what page have you linked us to ? [not to mention the img there]

I don't understand the question.

So I don't set much store by those who who are convinced we are in ikvsa demshicha

Most of the signs are here.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2012, 11:32:22 PM
Most of the signs are here.
R Akiva knew what the signs were a lot better than me or you, and he ended up being wrong. Obviously there's no proof to the contrary, but it's been looking like moshiach is about to come for 2,000 years
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: bubbles on March 13, 2012, 11:34:47 PM
I don't understand the question.


prob referring to the pic in the top right of the yalkut link
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2012, 11:37:45 PM
R Akiva now what the signs were a lot better than me or you, and he ended up being wrong. Obviously there's no proof to the contrary, but it's been looking like moshiach is about to come for 2,000 years

I'm referring to the following signs:

Quote from: Mishna Sotah
בעקבות משיחא חוצפא יסגא (תִרבה), ויוקר יאמיר: הגפן תתן פריה והיין ביוקר, ומלכות תהפך למינות, ואין תוכחת, בית וועד יהיה לזנות, והגליל יחרב, והגבלן (הגולן) יישום (יהיה ריק מאדם), ואנשי הגבול יסובבו מעיר לעיר ולא יחוננו, וחכמות סופרים תסרח, ויראי חטא ימאסו, והאמת תהא נעדרת. נערים פני זקנים ילבינו, זקנים יעמדו מפני קטנים, בן מנוול אב, בת קמה באמה, כלה בחמותה, אויבי איש אנשי ביתו, פני הדור כפני הכלב, הבן אינו מתבייש מאביו

Virtually all of these signs have become true over the past 50 years. I don't know why you keep mentioning Rabbi Akivah. I'm ready for Moshiach to come NOW, and you should be too (or at least revise your Shmone Esrei accordingly).
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2012, 11:45:08 PM
I'm referring to the following signs:

Virtually all of these signs have become true over the past 50 years. I don't know why you keep mentioning Rabbi Akivah. I'm ready for Moshiach to come NOW, and you should be too (or at least revise your Shmone Esrei accordingly).
I never said Moshiach won't come, nor that I don't want him to come. I just want to say that there were signs that it is imminent for a very long time.
Of course we want Moshicah to come right now, but that doesn't mean he will, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 13, 2012, 11:53:06 PM
I never said Moshiach won't come, nor that I don't want him to come. I just want to say that there were signs that it is imminent for a very long time.
Of course we want Moshicah to come right now, but that doesn't mean he will, unfortunately.

1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. Those signs I quoted to you (from the mishna) were present throughout history?

3. Those signs I quoted to you aren't present in the past generation or two more than ever before?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 12:01:42 AM
1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. Those signs I quoted to you (from the mishna) were present throughout history?

3. Those signs I quoted to you aren't present in the past generation or two more than ever before?
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

I am not so proficient at the various signs, since I can't find my hands and legs in them. Ch"v that I doubt chazal, but how many conflicting chazal's are there about which day of the week, month he will come on?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 12:11:27 AM
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

I am not so proficient at the various signs, since I can't find my hands and legs in them. Ch"v that I doubt chazal, but how many conflicting chazal's are there about which day of the week, month he will come on?

Moshiach encomasses two of the 13 principles of faith, and is one of the si things a person is asked when they arrive in Heaven, I advise you to do some studying.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 12:21:00 AM
Moshiach encomasses two of the 13 principles of faith, and is one of the si things a person is asked when they arrive in Heaven, I advise you to do some studying.
Those refer to his existence, and the ability of Hashem to send him right now, not being 100% sure it will happen.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 12:35:35 AM
Those refer to his existence, and the ability of Hashem to send him right now, not being 100% sure it will happen.

1. As I said above:

1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. ואף על פי שיתמהמה, עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא

3. וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו--לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבנו

And there are many more.

You should cunsult with some Rabbis or other Hashkafic people you trust, and get some clarity on these matters.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 14, 2012, 01:54:23 AM
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

My understanding is that he didn't think Moshiach was coming, he thought that Bar Kochva was actually the mashiach. That's a step further removed from simply thinking that we may live in the messianic era.

But I'm also sensitive to the danger of too many ppl thinking that Mashiach is imminent. Think Shabbtai Tzvi for example, and the mess that ensured. None the less, I think that factually, AsherO is correct. This may be why most Rabbanim don't talk about mashiach too much, b/c of this tension.

Either way, maybe a mashiach thread should be started? (And not one related to Chabad)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 02:00:20 AM
My understanding is that he didn't think Moshiach was coming, he thought that Bar Kochva was actually the mashiach. That's a step further removed from simply thinking that we may live in the messianic era.

But I'm also sensitive to the danger of too many ppl thinking that Mashiach is imminent. Think Shabbtai Tzvi for example, and the mess that ensured. None the less, I think that factually, AsherO is correct. This may be why most Rabbanim don't talk about mashiach too much, b/c of this tension.

Either way, maybe a mashiach thread should be started? (And not one related to Chabad)

I'm all for a Moshiach thread, and even more for it if it actually discusses Moshiach (and not what some chabad or non-chabad people believe). The Shabbtai Tzvi (Yms"h) situation was crazy, but I don't think it warrants dismantling the foundations/principles of our faith.

Also, for the record, ikvesa d'mshicha is not 'the messianic era', it's the period immediately before Moshiach's coming, granted the duration of this period is not defined (AFAIK). Oh, and I've been meaning to say for a while now, that the Chofetz Chaim was known for his awaiting the imminent coming of the Moshiach.

P.s. Mods, please consider forking a Moshiach thread.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 14, 2012, 03:45:58 AM
The Shabbtai Tzvi (Yms"h) situation was crazy, but I don't think it warrants dismantling the foundations/principles of our faith.

Of course not, but it probably contributes to why it's not a source of shmoozim and such.
I think its similar to why nach isn't studies in many places, for 2 reasons.
1) The Christians took it as their own
2) It has a lot of talk about "the end of days"

Also, for the record, ikvesa d'mshicha is not 'the messianic era', it's the period immediately before Moshiach's coming, granted the duration of this period is not defined (AFAIK).
Correct, I used a poor english translation
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 14, 2012, 04:18:03 AM
(or at least revise your Shmone Esrei accordingly).

Firstly, the difference between NS and NA is not if you should be "Metzapim liyeshua". Many mefarshim hold that even NS should not say the words, it was put in to have kavana at that point for "metzapim liyeshua" therefore some NS do not say the words, some have it in parenthesis.

Read the back of the 200 shekel bill for more inspiration.

OT - the other side of the bill is amazing!  :o ;D 8) I have strong feelings that most "Chiloni" ppl have not read it or do not carry it.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AJK on March 14, 2012, 10:28:18 AM
Oh, and I've been meaning to say for a while now, that the Chofetz Chaim was known for his awaiting the imminent coming of the Moshiach.


Yes, indeed. I have read he kept a suitcase by the front door or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Yes, indeed. I have read he kept a suitcase by the front door or something to that effect.

That's what's said. I don't know the source so I didn't want to get into specifics, but there are numerous stories about his eagerly awaiting the Moshiach in a very real/imminent way.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 14, 2012, 02:18:42 PM
That's what's said. I don't know the source so I didn't want to get into specifics, but there are numerous stories about his eagerly awaiting the Moshiach in a very real/imminent way.

I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 03:58:47 PM
I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.

Riiight... Because the C"C was just like you and me... ::)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 04:12:49 PM
I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.
Reminds me of a good story. I walked into a briskers house; he had 2 zecher lachurbans, one zecher, and one Zeichar.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 14, 2012, 04:48:28 PM
Riiight... Because the C"C was just like you and me... ::)
Color me confused.
You're right, he's not us. But that makes no difference. I'm talking about what God wants from all of us, no matter our level. Our external actions often influence our inner feelings. And this applies to all of us, from the greatest to the lowest.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 05:09:28 PM
Color me confused.
You're right, he's not us. But that makes no difference. I'm talking about what God wants from all of us, no matter our level. Our external actions often influence our inner feelings. And this applies to all of us, from the greatest to the lowest.

The greatest don't need to preform actions in order to create an emotional state.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: meshugener on March 14, 2012, 05:19:31 PM
See sefer hachinuch mitzvah ?? "ha'adam nifaal l'fee pe'ulosov"
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 05:30:53 PM
The greatest don't need to preform actions in order to create an emotional state.
Kurbonos according to the chinuch?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 14, 2012, 06:01:47 PM
The greatest don't need to preform actions in order to create an emotional state.
You mean that every gadol is perfect in every single realm. C'mon....
If God thinks that we all need it, I believe we all need it. Just to different extents.

Even in the sanitized gadol 'biographies', there are discussions about areas in which they were weaker and had to struggle in, or invest more time with.

Do you also think that the 'greatest' wouldn't benefit in any which way from musar either? After all, they're already on such a high level, that it wouldn't do anything for them.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 14, 2012, 06:43:46 PM
The culture and continuation of Edom is deffinitly "the west". The kingdom of Edom itself has been destroyed.

Where did you get that, that today's christians are descendants of Yaakov? Christians are made up of many many many goups. I beleive there is a mahrsha in chagigah or taanis (I forget) on the gemora "garmamya shel Edom" that says it's germany. The original christians went begging for followers and brought in many pagan cults, hence december 25th with it's trees etc;.

R' Akiva thought in the beginning that Bar Kochba was moshiach, but soon after realized he deffinitly was not.

Sorry, the gemorra "garmamya shel edom" is found in megilla 6b on top. The gemora explains that if they were able to, they would destroy the whole world. Rashi explains that "garmamya" is a name of a country. R' Yaakov Emden writes that "garmaya" is today's germany. Note: R' Emden lived aprox. 200 years before Hitler YM"S.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 07:34:21 PM
See sefer hachinuch mitzvah ?? "ha'adam nifaal l'fee pe'ulosov"

I'm not disputing that. I'm replying to a specific statement about the C"C by Reuven.

Kurbonos according to the chinuch?

I don't understand? Are you citing the same source as meshugener?

If G-d thinks that we all need it, I believe we all need it. Just to different extents.


FTFY.

You claim to know what G-d thinks?

Either way, I was addressing what you suggested about the C"C. It's ludicrous (IMHO) to suggest he had to "act out" impatience for Moshiach hoping it would make him feel that way. You equated him to us in that regard, which is just as ludicrous (IMHO).
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 07:40:16 PM
I don't understand? Are you citing the same source as meshugener?
The Chinuch holds the Kurbnus are intended to sink in yeshiva and avodas hashem by bringing it out to action. IIRC this is also the Ramban's explanation (as opposed to the famous Rambam)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 07:42:42 PM
The Chinuch holds the Kurbnus are intended to sink in yeshiva and avodas hashem by bringing it out to action. IIRC this is also the Ramban's explanation (as opposed to the famous Rambam)

I'm going to have to ask you to cite sources, no offense, but your English is incomprehensible.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 14, 2012, 07:45:45 PM
I'm going to have to ask you to cite sources, no offense, but your English is incomprehensible.
I can try to look for it later. The Chinuch explains the reason for the mitzvah of kurbnos is to ingrain teshuva and Yiraas hashem by commiting physical actions.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2012, 08:48:39 PM
I can try to look for it later. The Chinuch explains the reason for the mitzvah of kurbnos is to ingrain teshuva and Yiraas hashem by commiting physical actions.

Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik? What do you know about Teshuvah for a tzaddik?

Either way, we're discussing the chiyuv to await the redemption, not animal sacrifices.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 15, 2012, 09:10:50 AM
Reminds me of a good story. I walked into a briskers house; he had 2 zecher lachurbans, one zecher, and one Zeichar.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 15, 2012, 09:21:12 AM
Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik? What do you know about Teshuvah for a tzaddik?

Either way, we're discussing the chiyuv to await the redemption, not animal sacrifices.
I was just quoting the need bring about machshava by maasim, which applies even to tzadikim. Not discussing this specific case with the C"c. Only point I want to add, without voicing any opinion, is that although the C"C started a kodshim kollel for this reason, he was at the forefront of the fight against the briskers who made kodshim the primary study of all yeshiva buchorim.
;D ;D ;D
The first to laughs I understand ;) but what's the third for?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 15, 2012, 10:26:37 AM
There is a kuntress from the C"C called "Ikvisa Demishicha" which is a compilation of different letters he wrote about "Ikvisa Demishicha". It seems the Chofetz Chaim held that by davening for moshiach (which we do many times a day) but not being actively ready for moshiach is a contradiction. that is why he was very much into learning kodshim taharos and knowing halacha l'maaseh, he raised money for kodshim taharos kollelim etc; He has a parable where someone invites the king for a royal meal but he does not prepare anything, he says that is true for us, if were really sincere and really believe, we would do necassry preparations.
don't know if the story of the suitcase is real, but if it is, it would have to do with sincerely beleiving in moshiach. There is a story with R' Noson Wachtfogel who always had a suitcase packed in case moshiach comes. Once a bochur blew shofar in the BMG dorm and R' Noson thought it was the shofar of moshiach. That is how real it was to him. He also sent messengers trying to find the Aseres Hashvotim to hasten the coming of moshiach.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 10:41:58 AM
You claim to know what G-d thinks?
No, but I claim to know what He wants of us. It's found in the torah and the mesora (look, I rhymed). And the reasons we're told to do such acts is found either mefurash in the torah, or  in the torah shebaal peh.

Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik?
I didn't realize that tzaddikim had different obligations than us DDF'ers. And if Hashem wants us all to do all the mitzvot, then I'm sure that they can all benefit us in some way, no matter what our spiritual standing is.

Listen, I'm not at all putting down the C'C. All I'm saying is that the purpose of many mitzvot (tzitzis for eg) and minhagim (kippa for eg) is to create a certain feeling in us. And it's possible that the C'C did this for the same reason as well. But for whatever reason he did so, it's still a very high level he's on. Most of us wouldn't think of doing such a thing, either b/c we don't feel it, or b/c we aren't so interested in feeling it.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: U-no-me! on March 15, 2012, 11:00:32 AM
No, but I claim to know what He wants of us. It's found in the torah and the mesora (look, I rhymed). And the reasons we're told to do such acts is found either mefurash in the torah, or  in the torah shebaal peh.
I didn't realize that tzaddikim had different obligations than us DDF'ers. And if Hashem wants us all to do all the mitzvot, then I'm sure that they can all benefit us in some way, no matter what our spiritual standing is.

Listen, I'm not at all putting down the C'C. All I'm saying is that the purpose of many mitzvot (tzitzis for eg) and minhagim (kippa for eg) is to create a certain feeling in us. And it's possible that the C'C did this for the same reason as well. But for whatever reason he did so, it's still a very high level he's on. Most of us wouldn't think of doing such a thing, either b/c we don't feel it, or b/c we aren't so interested in feeling it.

My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shmuelb on March 15, 2012, 11:53:22 AM
The first two laughs I understand ;) but what's the third for?

Just in case the first two get mixed up.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 01:36:20 PM
My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.

Jee whiz, you're parsing e/t I say, even though we're probably in 99% agreement.
1) I'm not basing anything on MY interpretation of chazal. It's on what they wrote. (Unless you think that we're on too low a level to understand anything written in the gemara, rishonim, achronim, or artscroll books)
2) You're right, 'feeling' is the wrong work. It's too weak and wishy washy. They create a certain 'state-of-mind' for us to be in. This in meant to influence us in all of our daily actions, to make out lives more God-centric.
3) One of the main purposes of tzitzit is to assist us in remembering mitzvot, ie, a state of mind. Similar to kippa, although that's for Hashems presence.
4) I never wrote that this 'state of mind' is the only reason for mitzvot. However, I think it's probably the most 'practical' reason for us in our daily lives. The hashpa they may have in the upper realms is operating on another plane altogether. And the schar we receive will typically serve me in good stead in the after-life (although the torah does explicitly say that some will have an influence in our current life, such as arichus yamim)
5) I'll pass on the personal insults, it would remove me from my proper 'state of mind'.

I would advise learning the sefer hachinuch, or the Rambam's sefer hamitzvos. I have gained a lot from them.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 15, 2012, 01:48:42 PM
@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2012, 02:08:47 PM
@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.

Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim

I'm familiar with the chinuch since I've been going through it for a while now, and would like to make a siyum later this year.
I also understand that the Ramban has a different school of thought, which is why I purposefully don't insult ppl who may have that approach. If it speaks to them and helps them become better ovdei Hashem, then by all means ...
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 02:32:45 PM
@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.



I'd like to know where it says that tzaddikim experience e/t in a much different manner than us.
My proof is since the ta'amei hamitzos don't differentiate btw a tzaddik and others. Proof by omission.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: meshugener on March 15, 2012, 03:47:39 PM
And...........           A baby dies due to bris.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 03:49:34 PM
@AsherO
I just realized that part of our difference with regards to tzadikim may stem from the historical chasidish / non-chasidish saga. (I am guessing you're Chabad)
In that case, I have no doubt you will be able to marshal many sources, but to continue the argument would simply be a continuation of the arguments from the last several hundred years.
Perhaps we can leave it as is? We have different views, both valid, and both worthy of respect (he asks hopefully)?
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: Drago on March 15, 2012, 03:49:59 PM
And...........           A baby dies due to bris.
Is that what this thread was about?
:)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: AsherO on March 15, 2012, 04:13:06 PM
I'd like to know where it says that tzaddikim experience e/t in a much different manner than us.
My proof is since the ta'amei hamitzos don't differentiate btw a tzaddik and others. Proof by omission.

So then how do you define a Tzaddik? It's simply behavioral?

@AsherO
I just realized that part of our difference with regards to tzadikim may stem from the historical chasidish / non-chasidish saga. (I am guessing you're Chabad)
In that case, I have no doubt you will be able to marshal many sources, but to continue the argument would simply be a continuation of the arguments from the last several hundred years.
Perhaps we can leave it as is? We have different views, both valid, and both worthy of respect (he asks hopefully)?

I find it's ironic that I'm defending the C"C's respect, but I don't feel he was respected in this post (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=14584.msg198498#msg198498). While I agree that we differ on Hashkafa, I disagree that this is the same 'argument' as has been going on for hundreds of years. I'm confident the Gr"a, or any of the oilomishe gdolim would see things differently than you do.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: David B on March 15, 2012, 07:56:13 PM
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120315/NEWS03/303150130/Monsey-mohel-part-probe-into-death-newborn?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

Im not sure if this site ever has nice things to say about Jews but check it out

This site is simply the site of the publisher of the local print newspapers in Westchester and Rockland counties.  I've not found it to be biased against Jews.
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: MarkS on March 28, 2012, 11:29:47 AM
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (http://www.vosizneias.com/103728/2012/03/28/philadelphia-pa-leading-american-charedi-posek-says-metitza-should-not-be-done-orally) says to use a sterile tube when doing Metzizah!!
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: shach on March 28, 2012, 07:39:21 PM
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (http://www.vosizneias.com/103728/2012/03/28/philadelphia-pa-leading-american-charedi-posek-says-metitza-should-not-be-done-orally) says to use a sterile tube when doing Metzizah!!
could we get that in writing not via phone interview
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: MarkS on April 01, 2012, 12:43:42 AM
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (http://www.vosizneias.com/103728/2012/03/28/philadelphia-pa-leading-american-charedi-posek-says-metitza-should-not-be-done-orally) says to use a sterile tube when doing Metzizah!!
And.... the retraction! (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/123257/Clarification-From-HaRav-Shmuel-Kamenetsky-Regarding-Metzitzah-B%27Peh.html)
Title: Re: Baby dies due to bris
Post by: elikay on April 01, 2012, 12:45:05 AM
And.... the clarification! (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/123257/Clarification-From-HaRav-Shmuel-Kamenetsky-Regarding-Metzitzah-B%27Peh.html)
FTFY