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DansDeals Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 12:05:51 AM

Title: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 12:05:51 AM
So a cardiologist thinks the average guy has heart problems? You think professionals live in a bubble? If anything they know what most people do because they are in the field, studied it, observed it, etc.
Yes, I do think some proffesionals live in a bubble. Like the guy that deals w/ kids at risk that publicly says that 20% of kids text on shabbos.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Ergel on July 26, 2012, 12:06:50 AM
Yes, I do think some proffesionals live in a bubble. Like the guy that deals w/ kids at risk that publicly says that 20% of kids text on shabbos.
You're right, it's probably closer to 50 (maybe more like 35%, and that comes from speaking to some of my wife's students, and she teaches in a non "at risk" school). Maybe you are the one living in a bubble
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 12:09:27 AM
You're right, it's probably closer to 50 (maybe more like 35%, and that comes from speaking to some of my wife's students, and she teaches in a non "at risk" school). Maybe you are the one living in a bubble
Give me a break!
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 02:17:54 AM
You're right, it's probably closer to 50 (maybe more like 35%, and that comes from speaking to some of my wife's students, and she teaches in a non "at risk" school). Maybe you are the one living in a bubble
I dont believe that, it's fairly easy to check for BB holders when you're in a different zone.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 08:58:57 AM
I dont believe that, it's fairly easy to check for BB holders when you're in a different zone.
please explain yourself, i don't follow.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Name Changed on July 26, 2012, 09:08:45 AM
please explain yourself, i don't follow.
If you send a BBM (Blackberry Message) it shows up if they read it. For someone in a different time zone - it could be shabbos for them and not for you...
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 09:19:50 AM
You're right, it's probably closer to 50 (maybe more like 35%, and that comes from speaking to some of my wife's students, and she teaches in a non "at risk" school). Maybe you are the one living in a bubble
I spoke to my wife's students and 36% of them had a green dress, it must be that in the hundreds of thousands of kids in klal yisrael 36% wear green dresses. And BTW my 2 year old told me last night that there's a monster in his closet, I believe him, kids always say the truth and are in touch with reality.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 09:24:15 AM
All I can say is that if that 50% figure is true, I should be crying now.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 09:27:45 AM
All I can say is that if that 50% figure is true, I should be crying now.
And if it's true,"Netzach yisrael lo yeshaker" is shaky.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Ergel on July 26, 2012, 09:33:09 AM
I spoke to my wife's students and 36% of them had a green dress, it must be that in the hundreds of thousands of kids in klal yisrael 36% wear green dresses. And BTW my 2 year old told me last night that there's a monster in his closet, I believe him, kids always say the truth and are in touch with reality.
Genius arguments. I'm speechless
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 09:39:46 AM
Genius arguments. I'm speechless
oh and your argument that you can speak about general society, from your supposed conversations with your wife's students, who were so drawn in to your charismatic personality, that they started providing conffessions about their sins, and they told you that 35% of girls do the same thing, was pure genius.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 09:41:52 AM
I'm not really certain why this conversation ended up here - and why you guys are continuing it - you can start a new thread and discuss hypotheticals and problems with todays generation! This is a computer topic
Let a mod move it. BTW, welcome to the forums.
Title: Re: Re: Best PC laptop (non deal)
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 12:16:16 PM
Let a mod move it. BTW, welcome to the forums.
If you ever need mod action just click on "report to moderator"
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: outinstyle on July 26, 2012, 12:33:58 PM
Very scary. I heard this number before, yet I hope it is just an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 12:44:31 PM
Very scary. I heard this number before, yet I hope it is just an exaggeration.

It's not even the specific number that's scary. It's the fact that there is any number/group of people who find it 'acceptable' to do this on shabbos.
And it's scary because a lot of these kids would never drive on shabbos or eat not kosher in a million years. It's kind of just this one thing.

It's also because it's so easy to do in private.

And I can't imagine it's easy to stop once you start.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 01:10:48 PM
Yes, I do think some proffesionals live in a bubble. Like the guy that deals w/ kids at risk that publicly says that 20% of kids text on shabbos.
You base your opinion of ALL professionals based on "some?" You were talking to a frum guy that works with computer recovery. You think he lives in a bubble?

Do you have a link to the guys statistics about texting. Could he have been speaking about within a certain community? 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: outinstyle on July 26, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
Do a search for "Texting On Shabbos" on Google.........
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: outinstyle on July 26, 2012, 01:24:05 PM
Its called "Half Shabbos"  :o
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 01:26:02 PM
Its called "Half Shabbos"  :o

A guy just told me that.  He grew up Yeshivish and we were talking about where he's at. He was "off" for a while and he said he keeps "half shabbos".

But in this case he's coming back.. so I thought it was a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
Do a search for "Texting On Shabbos" on Google.........
"based on their survey of 1,200 teenagers in modern Orthodox institutions. They put the percentage texting on Shabbos at 17.7 percent, with another 15.5 percent surfing the Internet, and 13.5 percent using their cell phones."

@OP why am I not surprised you left out qualifiers to the guys statement. Maybe that's why you don't trust professionals- cuz you don't know what they say when they say it.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: KidOOO on July 26, 2012, 02:19:00 PM
its an addiction like any other

#Can'tputphoneDown-Syndrome
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 02:23:40 PM
KidOOO- +1

And this probelm is not unique to kids.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 02:33:56 PM
"based on their survey of 1,200 teenagers in modern Orthodox institutions. They put the percentage texting on Shabbos at 17.7 percent, with another 15.5 percent surfing the Internet, and 13.5 percent using their cell phones."

@OP why am I not surprised you left out qualifiers to the guys statement. Maybe that's why you don't trust professionals- cuz you don't know what they say when they say it.
@jj1000, take a chill pill. I wasn't referring to that MO survey. I'm referring to a guy who said this about the general frum public.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 02:36:01 PM
You base your opinion of ALL professionals based on "some?" You were talking to a frum guy that works with computer recovery. You think he lives in a bubble?

Do you have a link to the guys statistics about texting. Could he have been speaking about within a certain community?
take a 2nd chill pill, I won't even bother to respond bec. your accusing me of things i didn't even imply, and if you think i meant what you wrote i meant, take a 3rd chill pill and think it over.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: DrDanny on July 26, 2012, 02:55:42 PM
I've heard these numbers from these technology pros as well but never really believed them
until recently I was talking to my Rosh Yeshiva (who also runs the local community(a decent sized city))
we didn't talk numbers but he did tell me that the amount of girls who did it was way larger than than we would like to believe
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 02:57:12 PM
These numbers seem really hard to believe, but perhaps I'm out of touch.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 03:05:04 PM
These numbers seem really hard to believe, but perhaps I'm out of touch.
jj1000 is fire against what i'm about to say, but i'll say it anyways. Many times when a person specializes in a problem, being that he deals with it so much, they overestimate how prevalent the problem is, it's human nature. Now if the problem is heart problems, there are scientific studies how prevalent that is, and he won't overestimate. Or if the problem is blindness, you walk in the streets and see that most ppl aren't blind. But a problem with no studies and that's hidden, I think it's human nature to overestimate.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: SamDaMan on July 26, 2012, 03:06:50 PM
I personally know 2 kids who told me that they text on shabbos one was a reg kid who is in a yeshiva and the second kid works in a store in israel he is unfortunately slowly going off the 'd' he told me the first thing that he did that started him off was text because no one can know he did it.
both are american israelis and both come from 'reg families' and went/go to reg schools
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: springles on July 26, 2012, 03:07:46 PM
Putting a number or percentage on this problem is silly and pointless.  But to ignore it and say it isnt a problem, or it isnt a problem in my community, is even more silly.  This is a growing issue that is reaching all communities. 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: DrDanny on July 26, 2012, 03:08:46 PM

jj1000 is fire against what i'm about to say, but i'll say it anyways. Many times when a person specializes in a problem, being that he deals with it so much, they overestimate how prevalent the problem is, it's human nature. Now if the problem is heart problems, there are scientific studies how prevalent that is, and he won't overestimate. Or if the problem is blindness, you walk in the streets and see that most ppl aren't blind. But a problem with no studies and that's hidden, I think it's human nature to overestimate.
This is not my Rosh Yeshivas life or passion but people do come over to him for help when they catch their kids texting on shabbos
BTW he is a respected Litfisch RY
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 03:10:32 PM
Putting a number or percentage on this problem is silly and pointless.  But to ignore it and say it isnt a problem, or it isnt a problem in my community, is even more silly.  This is a growing issue that is reaching all communities.
It actually makes a big difference to me if 50% of my religiously clad community does not observe the torah.

I know this is a problem with adults too. Its actually been discussed here months ago, if any of the search pro's wanna try to find it.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: JEWDA on July 26, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
I personally know 2 kids who told me that they text on shabbos one was a reg kid who is in a yeshiva and the second kid works in a store in israel he is unfortunately slowly going off the 'd' he told me the first thing that he did that started him off was text because no one can know he did it.
both are american israelis and both come from 'reg families' and went/go to reg schools
So many of those type of kids go off the D
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 03:12:33 PM
This is not my Rosh Yeshivas life or passion but people do come over to him for help when they catch their kids texting on shabbos
BTW he is a respected Litfisch RY
I wasn't referring to your RY, I was referring to the original proffesional in beginning of this discussion.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 03:12:40 PM
So many of those type of kids go off the D

American Israelis have a hard time in Israel very often.

Not that it makes a difference too much. There are all types texting on Shabbos.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: mercaz1 on July 26, 2012, 03:13:04 PM
These numbers seem really hard to believe, but perhaps I'm out of touch.
i think anyone out of high school for any amount of significant time is prob out of touch with whats going on
i have been out for 10 years and when i visit my old yeshiva i realize how much things have changed in those ten years
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: springles on July 26, 2012, 03:13:12 PM
It actually makes a big difference to me if 50% of my religiously clad community does not observe the torah.

I know this is a problem with adults too. Its actually been discussed here months ago, if any of the search pro's wanna try to find it.
does it really make a difference to you if 10% or 20% or 50% do it? Why? its obviously a big enough issue even if 10% do it.  This is not an issue that is affecting a very small number of children either way.  I understand that you are curious how many ppl actually do this but what difference does it actually make to you?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 03:14:56 PM
It actually makes a big difference to me if 50% of my religiously clad community does not observe the torah.

I know this is a problem with adults too. Its actually been discussed here months ago, if any of the search pro's wanna try to find it.

This thread? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12561.msg161378#msg161378
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: JEWDA on July 26, 2012, 03:15:00 PM
American Israelis have a hard time in Israel very often.

Not that it makes a difference too much. There are all types texting on Shabbos.
Agreed. They have a very bad name in E'Y, I'v seen it myself.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 03:15:44 PM
does it really make a difference to you if 10% or 20% or 50% do it? Why? its obviously a big enough issue even if 10% do it.  I understand that you are curious how many ppl actually do this but what difference does it actually make to you?
10% and 50% is a tremendous difference, 1, is a major problem, 2, is THE major problem, and basically klal yisrael is doomed.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 03:17:53 PM
does it really make a difference to you if 10% or 20% or 50% do it? Why? its obviously a big enough issue even if 10% do it.  This is not an issue that is affecting a very small number of children either way.  I understand that you are curious how many ppl actually do this but what difference does it actually make to you?
If 10% is hurt it's a problem. If it's 50%, the 'frum' community is not really religious and we live in a fake.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 03:22:11 PM
Agreed. They have a very bad name in E'Y, I'v seen it myself.

I think a lot if it has to do with not exactly fitting in. Plus Israel is very black and white and a lot of Americans are more open minded but there's not a lot of room for that in Israel.  We have that problem in America. In Israel it's 100 times harder. No room to be grey.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 03:23:01 PM
If 10% is hurt it's a problem. If it's 50%, the 'frum' community is not really religious and we live in a fake.
We're talking about kids, not the adult community.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: DrDanny on July 26, 2012, 03:28:27 PM
If 10% is hurt it's a problem. If it's 50%, the 'frum' community is not really religious and we live in a fake.
+1 IMHO the root of this problem is these girls don't really have a hergesh for yiddishkite its become subject where you study for tests and not so much think about emunah and bitachon
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 03:33:36 PM
+1 IMHO the root of this problem is these girls don't really have a hergesh for yiddishkite its become subject where you study for tests and not so much think about emunah and bitachon


I agree that we should figure out WHY this is happening.  I think it comes from a lack of self esteem. And a definite lack of connection to yiddeshkeit. The texting isn't really the problem.  There are plenty of girls who don't text on shabbos who are just as empty inside.

Lately it seems to me these girls are empty and void of a lot of things.  Self esteem.  Passion...for anything meaningful frum or not. Etc.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: springles on July 26, 2012, 03:34:47 PM
If 10% is hurt it's a problem. If it's 50%, the 'frum' community is not really religious and we live in a fake.
????
Like it was already said we are talking about numbers in the frum teens, not overall frum communities.  I dont really agree with the comment that the community is fake even if it was 50% of the whole but we would be in real trouble. 

Either way, maybe you see a difference between 10 and 50% but the numbers really being discussed were between 10% and 35% and my whole point is that you cant really get an accurate number so why argue about it.  The end of the day is that this is a real issue that is affecting a "significant" number of the youth in frum communities.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 03:41:27 PM
FYI. Its not just teens. It's 20 year olds. 25 year olds. +

Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: shmuelb on July 26, 2012, 03:44:51 PM
It is geferlach whenever/wherever/whoever. It is a pritzas geder, a chink in the armor. If someones does text on Shabbos Chv"Sh, they are also letting others know, the recipients, and it a major chillul Hashem, pirsum hachet, it makes a chabura b'aveira. Busha ???

As was mentioned, it is IMHO2 a symptom, not the problem, which would be a lack of strong yiddish values.

It should be easy to check up your kids cell,  ???
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
FYI. Its not just teens. It's 20 year olds. 25 year olds. +
Of which circles exactly?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: mechayamom on July 26, 2012, 04:00:35 PM
Unfortunately, this is a problem that crosses communities, types of Yiddin and countries.  It is not only the girls who are doing the texting.  And texting is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a whole different discussion of why are teenagers today disillusioned with Yiddishkeit and falling off the "D" at an alarming rate.

And what can we do to help this situation?  How do we inspire today's teens?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 04:02:10 PM
FYI. Its not just teens. It's 20 year olds. 25 year olds. +
+1 even 40+

I just don't think the statistics are like those.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 04:07:13 PM
Of which circles exactly?

I know a couple yeshivish and modern yeshivish. A few married. Most of them not.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 04:10:23 PM
I think in Chabad guys would do this with more conviction. If they are going to text on shabbos they will also break shabbos any other way. Albeit they may do it in private so not to be picked on by hanhala. Teens going off truly is a problem across all communities.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: meshugener on July 26, 2012, 04:17:49 PM
i think anyone out of high school for any amount of significant time is prob out of touch with whats going on

+1000
I rate this post at the top of this entire thread.
Guys, have you been lately in a yeshiva or school as a teen? Anyone here? I believe the answer is (based on the discussion here) no.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 04:19:22 PM
+1000
I rate this post at the top of this entire thread.
Guys, have you been lately in a yeshiva or school as a teen? Anyone here? I believe the answer is (based on the discussion here) no.
I'm very in touch with Chabad high schools. Can't speak for anyone else though.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 04:25:59 PM
I'm mostly knowledgeable about Bais Yaakov high schools.

I agree that we don't know. We're not in touch like someone IN high school. Things tend to be worse than I think and I am constantly finding out things that surprise me even though in a certain sense nothing does anymore.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 04:26:02 PM
I know a couple yeshivish and modern yeshivish. A few married. Most of them not.
Scary, can't say that I've ever seen or even heard of anything like that around me but I guess I live in a bubble?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: meshugener on July 26, 2012, 04:26:36 PM
@jj
Did  you encounter a victim of footsteps.org?
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 04:26:42 PM
Scary, can't say that I've ever seen anything like that around me but I guess I live in a bubble?

It could be the percentage is small. But it IS happening.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 04:28:34 PM
Scary, can't say that I've ever seen or even heard of anything like that around me but I guess I live in a bubble?
Without being in a different time zone it's very hard to tell, as they know not to text to you. How exactly they establish who is in the "shabbos" list, I don't know.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 04:31:57 PM
@jj
Did  you encounter a victim of footsteps.org?
I haven't. A lot of Chabad teens/early 20's that go off adjust very easily because they grew up in a very open environment. Footsteps "helps" Polish chasidim much more to my knowledge.

Eta- I could tell you one thing for sure lubavitch girls don't need any lessons on how to dress. ;)
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 04:58:55 PM
+1 IMHO the root of this problem is these girls don't really have a hergesh for yiddishkite its become subject where you study for tests and not so much think about emunah and bitachon
Earlier in this thread, meshugener rated a comment tops of thread. I rate this comment tops of the thread. The schools are so busy making the girls educated, how about some emunah and bitachon.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 04:59:42 PM
Without being in a different time zone it's very hard to tell, as they know not to text to you. How exactly they establish who is in the "shabbos" list, I don't know.
Meh, there are 15 or so young Chabad couples that live around me in CLE and I'd be utterly shocked to find this happening among them.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:00:53 PM
Earlier in this thread, meshugener rated a comment tops of thread. I rate this comment tops of the thread. The schools are so busy making the girls educated, how about some emunah and bitachon.

If they we're getting it from home it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is its not coming from any direction.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:01:46 PM
Meh, there are 15 or so young Chabad couples that live around me in CLE and I'd be utterly shocked to find this happening among them.

And it might not be. But it is happening at whatever percentage big or small. 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 05:01:54 PM
Meh, there are 15 or so young Chabad couples that live around me in CLE and I'd be utterly shocked to find this happening among them.
again every community is different. Like I said before in Chabad if someone is trying they will go further than just that. Hence it'd be more apparent.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 05:04:17 PM
Earlier in this thread, meshugener rated a comment tops of thread. I rate this comment tops of the thread. The schools are so busy making the girls educated, how about some emunah and bitachon.
+1 also I will also never understand communities that look down on teens for asking questions like does hashem exists etc.

@Lamdan i'm chilling so I decided to drop our earlier discussion. :)
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: meshugener on July 26, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
And of course there's a huge difference between married and singles.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
@Lamdan i'm chilling so I decided to drop our earlier discussion. :)
Since this thread started, I've davened shacharis and mincha, let me tell you i davened much harder than normal, that my children's emunah should be strong. What started as a petty argument, is actualy turning into something constructive.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: KidOOO on July 26, 2012, 05:05:57 PM
http://torahmusings.com/2011/07/texting-on-shabbos/

Man, if not for this "chabura" how would us simple people know not to txt on shabbat??

Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:06:34 PM
+1 also I will also never understand communities that look down on teens for asking questions like does hashem exist

It always surprises me when I hear specific stories like that. I can't believe that goes on esp in the yeshivish small town cities.

Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Dan on July 26, 2012, 05:08:00 PM
again every community is different. Like I said before in Chabad if someone is trying they will go further than just that. Hence it'd be more apparent.
I hear ya'
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 05:08:11 PM
Meh, there are 15 or so young Chabad couples that live around me in CLE and I'd be utterly shocked to find this happening among them.
'Shock' would not come close to describing how I felt the first person I saw reading my BBM msg on Shabbos. I didn't believe it until the 3rd shabbos it happened.

Also, I would assume its more prevalent amongst less than typical, whole, functioning families.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: KidOOO on July 26, 2012, 05:08:18 PM
Since this thread started, I've davened shacharis and mincha, let me tell you i davened much harder than normal, that my children's emunah should be strong.

While the power of prayer is strong, actual steps need to be taken to establish strong emunah in our youth. I don't remember seeing much focus on that im my days in school, and i have a feeling not much has changed
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ChAiM'l on July 26, 2012, 05:08:30 PM
 
+1 also I will also never understand communities that look down on teens for asking questions like does hashem exists etc.

Do such communities still exist??  :o
Title: Re: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:08:40 PM
Since this thread started, I've davened shacharis and mincha, let me tell you i davened much harder than normal, that my children's emunah should be strong. What started as a petty argument, is actualy turning into something constructive.


I wonder if that's what it Is. Emunah. That keeps most kids from not texting. I'm not sure thats it exactly. Though obviously if you have emunah you won't hopefully be texting on shabbos.


Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: KidOOO on July 26, 2012, 05:09:35 PM
'Shock' would not come close to describing how I felt the first person I saw reading my BBM msg on Shabbos. I didn't believe it until the 3rd shabbos it happened.


That guy must either be dumb or simply does not care for you to know his little secret
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:10:58 PM
While the power of prayer is strong, actual steps need to be taken to establish strong emunah in our youth. I don't remember seeing much focus on that im my days in school, and i have a feeling not much has changed
couldn't agree with you more.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:12:14 PM
People are empty inside. And have lower self esteem and aren't really happy. And when you're not happy it's hard to keep shabbos. And when you're lonely or not happy you need distraction. And texting is a good one because it's easy to hide. And do in your home etc . That's for sure a big reason many of the people texting on shabbos are doing it.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:12:48 PM

I wonder if that's what it Is. Emunah. That keeps most kids from not texting. I'm not sure thats it exactly. Though obviously if you have emunah you won't hopefully be texting on shabbos.
they're still young ka"h, all i can do now is prayer and love.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 05:13:04 PM

Do such communities still exist??  :o
With out doubt. Happens to be I read devorah feldman's book and you know it's not all lies. That's not a proof it exists but she is a prime example of a person coming from such a type of community. There are others too. Even worse is some communities that they let kids ask and the rabbis or parents answers just suck. But that's already getting very technical in hashkafa which i'm sure many people disagree on.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:13:23 PM
That guy must either be dumb or simply does not care for you to know his little secret

95% of the people I know who text on shabbos told me themselves. One actually was trying to stop.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 05:15:09 PM
That guy must either be dumb or simply does not care for trustedyou to know his little secret
The circumstances here are extremely far from a regular yeshivsh person.

Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
Maybe we should make a poll of how many adults you know who text on shabbos, me personally, i don't know anyone.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
95% of the people I know who text on shabbos told me themselves. One actually was trying to stop.
I guess thats 95% of the people you know that text, theres no way to know who doesnt unless the BBM messages don't go through...
Maybe we should make a poll of how many adults you know who text on shabbos, me personally, i don't know anyone.
You might know someone, but you don't know that he does.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 05:16:47 PM
Since this thread started, I've davened shacharis and mincha, let me tell you i davened much harder than normal, that my children's emunah should be strong. What started as a petty argument, is actualy turning into something constructive.
You have to be a dugma chaya aka a living example of what yidishkeit is. That is every parents biggest responsibility when it comes to all this IMO. When a child sees a parent that loves their religion and openly discusses/shares it with them amazing things will happen, if not... Im glad this is being discusses your correct a lot of good could come from this thread.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: meshugener on July 26, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
And how about a poll on 'do you text on shabbos?'
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:17:19 PM
95% of the people I know who text on shabbos told me themselves. One actually was trying to stop.
it sounds like you know a lot of shabbos texters, how many do you know, hashem yerachem, i'm starting to shake.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 05:18:26 PM
Since this thread started, I've davened shacharis and mincha, let me tell you i davened much harder than normal, that my children's emunah should be strong. What started as a petty argument, is actualy turning into something constructive.
My tisha bav definitely won't be the same.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 05:19:07 PM
You might know someone, but you don't know that he does.
of course. it's scary.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: PlatinumGuy on July 26, 2012, 05:19:39 PM
You have to be a dugma chaya aka a living example of what yidishkeit is. That is every parents biggest responsibility when it comes to all this IMO. When a child sees a parent that loves their religion and openly discusses/shares it with them amazing things will happen, if not... Im glad this is being discusses your correct a lot of good could come from this thread.
+1.

I still believe this problem is very marginal, at least amongst adults.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:19:58 PM
I know 6 girls and 3 guys. And I know they text other acquaintances I know but I don't know who.



And I know plenty of stories from people who have friends or roommates in yeshiva or whatever it is. But obviously that's already second hand.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 05:21:23 PM
I know 6 girls and 3 guys. And I know they text other acquaintances I know but I don't know who.

Maybe that doesn't seem like "a lot" but it feels like a whole lot whenever I find out.

And I know plenty of stories from people who have friends or roommates in yeshiva or whatever it is. But obviously that's already second hand.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: springles on July 26, 2012, 06:40:18 PM
+1.

I still believe this problem is very marginal, at least amongst adults.
I agree that amongst adults it doesnt happen at a high number (I wouldnt use the word marginal though).
But the kids of today are the adults of tomorrow and while some may stop as they mature, some will not
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 06:56:17 PM
I agree that amongst adults it doesnt happen at a high number (I wouldnt use the word marginal though).
But the kids of today are the adults of tomorrow and while some may stop as they mature, some will not

Even if they do stop it has to be for the right intent.  I have one friend who feels bad and knows its wrong and then another who could care less really.
If they both stopped tomorrow just because they matured and grew out of it I'd still be pretty concerned with the girl who just doesn't do it because it's not done.

       
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: HelpMe on July 26, 2012, 07:14:29 PM
Is it possible that these kids being from a different generation believe what they are doing is not wrong?
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Ergel on July 26, 2012, 07:18:44 PM
Is it possible that these kids being from a different generation believe what they are doing is not wrong?
Some. But most I think know it's wrong but don't care because they don't really believe inn God, push comes to shove
Title: Re: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
Some. But most I think know it's wrong but don't care because they don't really believe inn God, push comes to shove

Believing in G-d isn't 100% or nothing either.

I think the problem is many of them never even asked themselves what they believe.
Title: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 07:33:56 PM
Is it possible that these kids being from a different generation believe what they are doing is not wrong?

I'm sure some really believe that.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: meshugener on July 26, 2012, 08:53:04 PM

I think the problem is many of them never even asked themselves what they believe.
+100
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 09:51:44 PM
Is it possible that these kids being from a different generation believe what they are doing is not wrong?
IMHO there are VERY few jewish kids raised in an orthodox home who go off the path of their parents because of mental or thought out convictions which they differ in. Rather they do it because of lust, desires, laziness, emotional trauma, lack of love or family etc. bottom line they do it based on emotions not a well contemplated belief.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: DrDanny on July 26, 2012, 10:03:17 PM
IMHO there are VERY few jewish kids raised in an orthodox home who go off the path of their parents because of mental or thought out convictions which they differ in. Rather they do it because of lust, desires, laziness, emotional trauma, lack of love or family etc. bottom line they do it based on emotions not a well contemplated belief.
I agree with you although I'm not sure if that's what help me was saying
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 26, 2012, 10:03:38 PM
IMHO there are VERY few jewish kids raised in an orthodox home who go off the path of their parents because of mental or thought out convictions which they differ in. Rather they do it because of lust, desires, laziness, emotional trauma, lack of love or family etc. bottom line they do it based on emotions not a well contemplated belief.

Sometimes I feel like there are probably more people who ARE frum who don't even know what they believe than those who went off and are just unsure or don't know how to connect to things etc.

            The problem I feel is more pronounced today is the general not caring...about anything!
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 10:22:20 PM
Sometimes I feel like there are probably more people who ARE frum who don't even know what they believe than those who went off and are just unsure or don't know how to connect to things etc.

            The problem I feel is more pronounced today is the general not caring...about anything!
Like a Rosh Yeshiva once told me, that the reason why there's no haskalah today is because no one cares, and no one thinks. He said there's a maalah that no one thinks bec. there's no haskala, but the chisaron is that the yiddishkeit is less strong. He said he doesn't know if the pros of a non-thinking generation outweigh the cons.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 26, 2012, 10:30:08 PM
I agree with you although I'm not sure if that's what help me was saying
If not I was answering a question before he got a chance to ask :)
Sometimes I feel like there are probably more people who ARE frum who don't even know what they believe than those who went off and are just unsure or don't know how to connect to things etc.

            The problem I feel is more pronounced today is the general not caring...about anything!
True that is inline with what i'm saying. It is just laziness like I said.
Like a Rosh Yeshiva once told me, that the reason why there's no haskalah today is because no one cares, and no one thinks. He said there's a maalah that no one thinks bec. there's no haskala, but the chisaron is that the yiddishkeit is less strong. He said he doesn't know if the pros of a non-thinking generation outweigh the cons.
I'm not in the place to argue with a rosh yeshivah but I don't see the comparison from a halachic view point. If you don't believe in hashem and know hashem then the whole foundation of your judaism is off. But that's hashkafa which i'm not a expert in everyone hashkafa so I just see it my way I suppose.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 26, 2012, 10:46:08 PM
.  I'm not in the place to argue with a rosh yeshivah but I don't see the comparison from a halachic view point. If you don't believe in hashem and know hashem then the whole foundation of your judaism is off. But that's hashkafa which i'm not a expert in everyone hashkafa so I just see it my way I suppose.
What he meant was is that a percentage of yidden were maskilim, bec. it was a thinking generation, and a percentage were deep believing frum jews. Now almost no ones a maskil but almost no ones a deep believing jew.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: HelpMe on July 27, 2012, 12:37:37 AM
I agree with you although I'm not sure if that's what help me was saying
You got that right.
IMHO there are VERY few jewish kids raised in an orthodox home who go off the path of their parents because of mental or thought out convictions which they differ in. Rather they do it because of lust, desires, laziness, emotional trauma, lack of love or family etc. bottom line they do it based on emotions not a well contemplated belief.
Where did that come from?
If not I was answering a question before he got a chance to ask :)
Preemptive strike?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 27, 2012, 12:42:27 AM
.Where did that come from?
nothing personal, but he actually lives in the community, and knows, and interacts with, like we all do, many kids that strayed, that qualifies him to comment. But just to strengthen his point, in my elementary school class, 5 kids strayed - they were ALL orphans. (Yes, Lo aleinu, I had alot of orphans in my class).
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jj1000 on July 27, 2012, 12:49:26 AM
Preemptive strike?
100%!  That's my philosophy strike early and strike hard :)
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: HelpMe on July 27, 2012, 12:59:49 AM
nothing personal, but he actually lives in the community, and knows, and interacts with, like we all do, many kids that strayed, that qualifies him to comment. But just to strengthen his point, in my elementary school class, 5 kids strayed - they were ALL orphans. (Yes, Lo aleinu, I had alot of orphans in my class).
I didnít take anything personally. I was confused. I thought maybe he quoted me by mistake.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: HelpMe on July 27, 2012, 01:00:26 AM
100%!  That's my philosophy strike early and strike hard :)
That does not work on everyone.  :P
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Lamdan on July 27, 2012, 01:08:58 AM
I didnít take anything personally. I was confused. I thought maybe he quoted me by mistake.
HelpMe, you rock!
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: shmuelb on July 27, 2012, 03:55:15 AM
About not thinking, that is the way young people are. I remember when I was young. I think it is similar to smoking, they start smoking without thinking what the *^$# they are doing. They do a lot of  foolishness. (Remember the Bill Cosby routine?)

The troubling part is here the motivation is boredom. (I think this was mentioned in the MO survey) That is a heter to be michalel Shabbos?!? The yetzer hara is not coming with major taavos here and they break Shabbos so easily. You are bored so you are mechalel Shabbos?? Unbelievable! That shows how there is something majorly wrong with their conviction to Shmiras Hamitzvos.

Also what is sad but a reality is that they are bored on Shabbos. They do not have a geshmak from Shabbos. Nebach! Go to Shabbat.com or in Israel also anywhereinisrael.com and find fun hosts for Shabbos/meals... Come to us! Find a place where you can have meaning in your Shabbos! Shabbos is awesome!!!
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: duvid crockett on July 27, 2012, 06:35:15 PM
I'm not paskening or anything but I spoke the topic over with a poisek and its not so pashut that its asur. Yes its very possible that there's no real chilul Shabbos with using your phone if its not for talking.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: MarkS on July 27, 2012, 06:36:05 PM
I'm not paskening or anything but I spoke the topic over with a poisek and its not so pashut that its asur. Yes its very possible that there's no real chilul Shabbos with using your phone if its not for talking.
What's the difference between talking and texting?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: DrDanny on July 27, 2012, 06:45:25 PM
+1 i may agree with you that there both questionably assur but they are defiantly not different
Unless you mean a landline
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Reb Moshe on July 27, 2012, 07:17:37 PM
I'm not paskening or anything but I spoke the topic over with a poisek and its not so pashut that its asur. Yes its very possible that there's no real chilul Shabbos with using your phone if its not for talking.

you are obviously not trying to say its muttar. but you are probably saying that we should know exactly what you are doing when sending a text or making a call. its important not to spread that its muttar
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: shmuelb on July 29, 2012, 11:38:50 AM
I was at the English Kinnos today in EY, the Rav mentioned this. He spoke about how people nowadays do not have the feeling of Shabbos like it was in previous generations. The Rav gave an example from the Mishna in Taanis Perek 4, that we do not make a taanis on Sunday
Quote
ולא באחד בשבת, כדי שלא יצאו ממנוחה וענג ליגיעה ותענית וימותו
. He explained that was by Taanios for rain in the time of the Beis Hamikdash. Now we do have 9bAv on Sunday, like today, because after the churban, our Shabbos is not the same.

After the shiur, someone asked the Rav about texting on Shabbos. He said it is clearly Assur, even if only derabanan, it is still asur.

Now is it 99:1 a safek or like pig etc. what's the difference? If a teen is being moreh heter, it is not a svarah in halacha, as if he asked a Rav. Its just bs, like posting "I could have a heter if I wanted" on fb. Nebach!

Now, if Duvie was reform chvSh, then yes, as a balbus on the board, you can find a heter for leniency, add lomdus and hagdaros etc. just like a psak that you should make a bris in shul on Shabbos because it is clear in Halacha that you can not drive to (make) a bris on Shabbos, but as the convention in cleve or somewhere already hetered driving to shul, so make the bris in shul and migu that you can drive to shul for davening, the baby can be driven and all the guests etc. "Gilgul galgal"

Now Rab Moshe, agav, how did you get Rav Kav Platinum?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: KidOOO on July 29, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
Now Rab Moshe, agav, how did you get Rav Kav Platinum?

(-:
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on July 29, 2012, 04:20:48 PM
You know what I noticed about Shabbos? Especially when I ate out a lot when I was younger.. a lot if the husbands would sit down and say wow Im tired or I can't wait to get to sleep, I'm so glad its shabbos so I can sleep etc etc. And they had young kids. I remember thinking back then it was totally giving kids the wrong impression. 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: shmuelb on July 29, 2012, 05:34:22 PM
+1, it takes effort, thinking about others, not focusing or wallowing in our own needs.

The Chafetz Chaim said that everyone should spend time every day wrking/planning for his child/ren's chinuch and the Rebbe said we should spend an hour a day on that.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 12:18:28 AM
 A close friend of mine is r"l slipping down very bad. Right now he is at the stage where r"l he doesn't believe in "Torah min hashamyim", "am hanivchar", etc. can anyone recommend any solid good books on these topics which I can send him to read?
Wasn't sure where to post this. Couldn't find anything on this topic. If there is a already a thread on this topic please direct me
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 01:10:19 AM
A close friend of mine is r"l slipping down very bad. Right now he is at the stage where r"l he doesn't believe in "Torah min hashamyim", "am hanivchar", etc. can anyone recommend any solid good books on these topics which I can send him to read?
Wasn't sure where to post this. Couldn't find anything on this topic. If there is a already a thread on this topic please direct me
I don't know that sending your friend "solid good books on these topics " will help him.

Your friend needs personal guidance and help. First and foremost he probably needs someone that will listen to him. One probably needs to get down to what has triggered this, before being able to help.

There are people out there who specialize in this. Knowing the age of your friend, some background, and what he does now, might help in pointing at at the right direction for help. Don't reveal any personal information publicly, but if you give general information, maybe you'll get some recommendations.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on June 26, 2017, 02:47:29 AM
A close friend of mine is r"l slipping down very bad. Right now he is at the stage where r"l he doesn't believe in "Torah min hashamyim", "am hanivchar", etc. can anyone recommend any solid good books on these topics which I can send him to read?
Wasn't sure where to post this. Couldn't find anything on this topic. If there is a already a thread on this topic please direct me

How's he doing in other areas of his life?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ben89 on June 26, 2017, 07:36:59 AM
I don't know that sending your friend "solid good books on these topics " will help him.
maybe some chasidus books will help?!? 😂
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 08:02:15 AM
maybe some chasidus books will help?!? 😂
very possibly.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: elit on June 26, 2017, 08:10:20 AM
I don't know that sending your friend "solid good books on these topics " will help him.

Your friend needs personal guidance and help. First and foremost he probably needs someone that will listen to him. One probably needs to get down to what has triggered this, before being able to help.

There are people out there who specialize in this. Knowing the age of your friend, some background, and what he does now, might help in pointing at at the right direction for help. Don't reveal any personal information publicly, but if you give general information, maybe you'll get some recommendations.
+1. are you talking about a teenager,  adult?  chassidic? yeshiva background?  MY etc....
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 08:13:24 AM
maybe some chasidus books will help?!? 😂
Wow. So wrong on so many levels.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 08:14:57 AM
I don't know that sending your friend "solid good books on these topics " will help him.

Your friend needs personal guidance and help. First and foremost he probably needs someone that will listen to him. One probably needs to get down to what has triggered this, before being able to help.

There are people out there who specialize in this. Knowing the age of your friend, some background, and what he does now, might help in pointing at at the right direction for help. Don't reveal any personal information publicly, but if you give general information, maybe you'll get some recommendations.
+100000000
There are some great people who help those in these situations and do a great job of it. It is rarely the intellectual questions that are the root cause.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: David Smith on June 26, 2017, 08:15:43 AM
Almost nobody goes off the derech because of their philosophical belief in G-d or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: mendy from lakewood on June 26, 2017, 09:08:28 AM
Almost nobody goes off the derech because of their philosophical belief in G-d or lack thereof.
could not have said it any better
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 09:36:02 AM
Almost nobody goes off the derech because of their philosophical belief in G-d or lack thereof.

Someone once told me or I heard in a speech or something of the sort that when someone starts blaming their going OTD on philosophical questions he starts discussing things like the Kuzari, Moreh Nevuchim, Aristotle, and other major philsophical works of Jewish and non-Jewish origins until the person is forced to agree that he did not really think through the philosophical  questions well. "You mean you are changing your lifestyle based on philosophical questions without having read these basic philosophical works?"
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: elit on June 26, 2017, 09:39:36 AM
Someone once told me or I heard in a speech or something of the sort that when someone starts blaming their going OTD on philosophical questions he starts discussing things like the Kuzari, Moreh Nevuchim, Aristotle, and other major philsophical works of Jewish and non-Jewish origins until the person is forced to agree that he did not really think through the philosophical  questions well. "You mean you are changing your lifestyle based on philosophical questions without having read these basic philosophical works?"
that's rabbi mechanics classic line
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 09:41:26 AM
maybe some chasidus books will help?!? 😂
Unfortunately this is no laughing matter.

Learning Chassidus could definitely help, but it can't just be the book. I am positive that if the person in question would see that @ben89 (or for that matter any other Yid that doesn't even know him (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/ig/4/999)) is willing to have some מסירות נפש just for him, and yes, maybe even learn some Chassidus with him (like for example one of @Dan's favorite maamorim - which might give a totally different paradigm about עם הנבחר - to use the terminology that was used at the onset of the current discussion), seeing that caring and expression of אהבת ישראל might go a lot further than you could imagine.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 09:44:26 AM
Someone once told me or I heard in a speech or something of the sort that when someone starts blaming their going OTD on philosophical questions he starts discussing things like the Kuzari, Moreh Nevuchim, Aristotle, and other major philsophical works of Jewish and non-Jewish origins until the person is forced to agree that he did not really think through the philosophical  questions well. "You mean you are changing your lifestyle based on philosophical questions without having read these basic philosophical works?"
Though I don't know how effective that approach is, as it challenges and belittles the person, which could create a barrier, rather than acknowledging and validating the person, which might make him a מקבל.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 09:50:54 AM
Though I don't know how effective that approach is, as it challenges and belittles the person, which could create a barrier, rather than acknowledging and validating the person, which might make him a מקבל.
I do remember that it was from someone very successful with these people. He uses that to change the direction of the conversation to what matters. If you are going to be busy with his philosophical "questions" when they are really not questions but answers then it is a waste.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: theduke on June 26, 2017, 02:41:31 PM
Personally, most people I have seen that have gone OTD (barring situations of abuse or the like) are due to taiva. They may say that they have questions but in reality, it is just an excuse, rarely do they try to find answers.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2017, 02:46:30 PM
Personally, most people I have seen that have gone OTD (barring situations of abuse or the like) are due to taiva. They may say that they have questions but in reality, it is just an excuse, rarely do they try to find answers.

How do you know whether they tried to find the answers?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 03:06:53 PM
How do you know whether they tried to find the answers?
ask them
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
ask them

Which kid is going to say that he/she didn't even bother asking?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 03:24:11 PM
Which kid is going to say that he/she didn't even bother asking?
It is not so hard to get out of them what they did to find out. Don't ask "did you ask anyone" but "Who did you discuaa this with?"
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 03:29:08 PM
maybe some chasidus books will help?!? 😂

Start with any torah learning. I personally recommend Baba Kama for this specific ailment.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: theduke on June 26, 2017, 04:10:33 PM
How do you know whether they tried to find the answers?
It was more like discussing it with them. Additionally, you can tell by the way the lead their lives. If the issue is questions then why does that lead to the gimmel aveiros. Even atheists have some sort of moral guide.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 04:17:52 PM
Start with any torah learning. I personally recommend Baba Kama for this specific ailment.
Any torah learning can have a positive impact, as it says (http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/toshba/eyha/0-2.htm#2) המאור שבה מחזירן למוטב. Not sure why you think B"K is recommended more than any other part.

All of that notwithstanding, I stand by what I said above, that just pointing the person to a sefer to learn is probably not effective in such cases. This requires personal attention of someone who cares, and is hopefully experienced, so that with סייעתא דשמיא he would be successful.

You rightfully called the situation an ailment, and just like with a חולי הגוף you wouldn't just prescribe something without proper examination, how much more so in such cases, that expert evaluation and guidance is called for.

ETA: See here  (http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/tm/1/27/178)regarding המאור, though that is not to detract from the simple meaning, but rather to add to it.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 07:05:17 PM
I don't know that sending your friend "solid good books on these topics " will help him.

Your friend needs personal guidance and help. First and foremost he probably needs someone that will listen to him. One probably needs to get down to what has triggered this, before being able to help.

There are people out there who specialize in this. Knowing the age of your friend, some background, and what he does now, might help in pointing at at the right direction for help. Don't reveal any personal information publicly, but if you give general information, maybe you'll get some recommendations.

Getting him to meet with someone -right now I do not think is a possibility.
He is a married 30 year old with children. The only reason why he still acts and dresses Jewish is in order not to lose his family and friends.
I'm sure there are some great books which even if it might not fully convince him he'll at least see there is another side besides all the garbage he is currently reading.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2017, 07:08:39 PM
Getting him to meet with someone -right now I do not think is a possibility.
He is a married 30 year old with children. The only reason why he still acts and dresses Jewish is in order not to lose his family and friends.
I'm sure there are some great books which even if it might not fully convince him he'll at least see there is another side besides all the garbage he is currently reading.

You'll have know what he's reading now to know which books will properly address them.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 07:10:04 PM
+1. are you talking about a teenager,  adult?  chassidic? yeshiva background?  MY etc....
Chasidish adult with family
Unfortunately this isn't so uncommon. Lots of people are missing the basic foundations of Judaism....
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 07:11:31 PM
Getting him to meet with someone -right now I do not think is a possibility.
He is a married 30 year old with children. The only reason why he still acts and dresses Jewish is in order not to lose his family and friends.
I'm sure there are some great books which even if it might not fully convince him he'll at least see there is another side besides all the garbage he is currently reading.
Well, you might be the person to speak with him initially. You might just need some guidance from an expert.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 07:12:01 PM
Getting him to meet with someone -right now I do not think is a possibility.
He is a married 30 year old with children. The only reason why he still acts and dresses Jewish is in order not to lose his family and friends.
I'm sure there are some great books which even if it might not fully convince him he'll at least see there is another side besides all the garbage he is currently reading.
How about getting someone to meet with him.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 07:12:29 PM
+100000000
There are some great people who help those in these situations and do a great job of it. It is rarely the intellectual questions that are the root cause.
If you ask me it's the unitellect. No other religion or belief has such strong solid foundations as yiddishkeit. Unfortunately I do not think today's schools teach it enough
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 07:15:14 PM
Send him to Keiravtuni...
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 07:15:43 PM
Send him to Keiravtuni...
How
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 07:19:30 PM
How

Obviously, only if he's still willing to listen.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
Obviously, only if he's still willing to listen.

Getting him to meet with someone -right now I do not think is a possibility.
He is a married 30 year old with children. The only reason why he still acts and dresses Jewish is in order not to lose his family and friends.
I'm sure there are some great books which even if it might not fully convince him he'll at least see there is another side besides all the garbage he is currently reading.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Sport on June 26, 2017, 07:34:44 PM
Imho, at this point just be there for him as a friend. You're not going to prove anything to him regardless of the strength of your argument. I'm willing to bet that less than 5% of bal teshuvahs (both ffb and not) made their life changes based purely on being proven that yidiahkiet is legitimate.
If you are a true friend to him and are there for him regardless of his level of observance, you'll have plenty of opportunities to be mikariv him over time.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 07:34:55 PM
With all the kiruv chabad does, don't they have any books on the 13 ani mamins or the likes?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 26, 2017, 07:47:58 PM
Imho, at this point just be there for him as a friend. You're not going to prove anything to him regardless of the strength of your argument. I'm willing to bet that less than 5% of bal teshuvahs (both ffb and not) made their life changes based purely on being proven that yidiahkiet is legitimate.
If you are a true friend to him and are there for him regardless of his level of observance, you'll have plenty of opportunities to be mikariv him over time.
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 07:52:40 PM
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....
Do you have time?

Can you offer to learn as a chavrusa with him twice a week? Over the phone?

You can ask a rabbi that knows him what sefer is best to learn.

He might be interested..
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: yelped on June 26, 2017, 07:53:00 PM
If you ask me it's the unitellect. No other religion or belief has such strong solid foundations as yiddishkeit. Unfortunately I do not think today's schools teach it enough
This is very true unfortunately..
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 08:27:25 PM
With all the kiruv chabad does, don't they have any books on the 13 ani mamins or the likes?
Start here. (http://www.toratchabad.com/files/maynotecha/machshevet/tzor.pdf) I'm deliberately linking to a ביאור by someone who you (I personally try to avoid labels, and use it here as I think that is the label most would use) wouldn't consider a Lubavitcher. I don't suggest you send this, but rather learn it well yourself. You will be much better equipped to help your friend.

Chasidish adult with family
Unfortunately this isn't so uncommon. Lots of people are missing the basic foundations of Judaism....

A couple of years ago I remember seeing some publication from Boro-Park that told a story of someone who went OTD, and then later was niskarev. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר ולבסוף מאי קסבר, he responded something along the lines of די אידשקייט וואס איך האב געטראפן האב איך קיינמאל ניט אפגעלאזט.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: mmgfarb on June 26, 2017, 08:42:31 PM
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....
You think you or anyone else is going to get him to come back in a day? The last thing he needs right now is for you to sit there and argue with him ad infinitum and make him feel like you no longer care to be with him. Imagine the alienation that he's feeling right now, he's basically living a lie for the sake of his children. The best thing you can do right now is provide a listening ear and a comforting shoulder, respectfully disagree with what he says but arguing until you're both blue in the face gets neither of you anywhere. There isn't some magic thing you can say or one book he can read that will change his mind right now, it's a process. The best thing you can do right now is to make sure he, as a person, isn't completely alienated and made to feel illegitimate or worthless, that's what pushes people past the point of no return.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: elit on June 26, 2017, 08:49:47 PM
With all the kiruv chabad does, don't they have any books on the 13 ani mamins or the likes?
that's not what he needs
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....
it's doing a lot more than you realize...

Quote

A couple of years ago I remember seeing some publication from Boro-Park that told a story of someone who went OTD, and then later was niskarev through Lubavitch. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר ולבסוף מאי קסבר, he responded something along the lines of די אידשקייט וואס איך האב געטראפן האב איך קיינמאל ניט אפגעלאזט.

please please just stop...
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: yelped on June 26, 2017, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: elit
please please just stop...
[/quote

He obviously believes very strongly in it. Sort of reinforces his point.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 08:54:34 PM
that's not what he needsit's doing a lot more than you realize...

please please just stop...
The point is the same with or without lubavitch in there
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 09:27:46 PM
The point is the same with or without lubavitch in there
Indeed.

I just fixed my post to remove the reference.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 09:30:08 PM
Indeed.

I just fixed my post to remove the reference.
that was not even directed at you. Lubavitch most definitely has the right to tout a success case.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 09:41:14 PM
that was not even directed at you. Lubavitch most definitely has the right to tout a success case.
Didn't try to claim anything, just quoted the story as I recalled it, but since the reference to Lubavitch is TOTALLY irrelevant to the point I was trying to bring across, and since some people find it distasteful, I removed it.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: beeweegee on June 26, 2017, 09:42:33 PM
that's rabbi mechanics classic line
...followed up by, "So you're not an atheist, you're an ignoramus!"
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 26, 2017, 10:14:19 PM
...followed up by, "So you're not an atheist, you're an ignoramus!"
Good luck making any inroads after putting someone down like that.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: sky121 on June 26, 2017, 11:51:40 PM
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....
What kind of 'garbage' exactly?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: mmgfarb on June 27, 2017, 12:56:20 AM
Good luck making any inroads after putting someone down like that.
+1 Everyone says that he's successful but I really don't understand how. After hearing him speak twice I didn't hear any substance from him. It could be he just doesn't say what he really tells people but I don't get how he actually brings anyone who is really off, back.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 08:39:17 AM
...followed up by, "So you're not an atheist, you're an ignoramus!"

That line is awesome and effective on those that are frum - not those that are OTD.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Aaaron on June 27, 2017, 10:41:16 AM
+1 Everyone says that he's successful but I really don't understand how. After hearing him speak twice I didn't hear any substance from him. It could be he just doesn't say what he really tells people but I don't get how he actually brings anyone who is really off, back.

Same thing with AISH.  They all work for people who are wanting to be there or become frum, not for someone who is already questioning. 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 10:45:24 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/4906f7f4b0a67c296c3be69777680e74.jpg)
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
That line is awesome and effective on those that are frum - not those that are OTD.
I can't imagine he says it that way to those that are OTD
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 11:38:17 AM
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Edansdeals%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D40344%2E0&share_tid=40344&share_fid=16768&share_type=t
Ani Maamin Foundation
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Brian93 on June 27, 2017, 12:18:27 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/4906f7f4b0a67c296c3be69777680e74.jpg)
When people find an inspirational quote and slap it on a rebbe picture
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: jungarmtl on June 27, 2017, 01:19:20 PM
give him a shier from mizrachi or fanger it could help
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: elit on June 27, 2017, 01:25:07 PM
Didn't try to claim anything, just quoted the story as I recalled it, but since the reference to Lubavitch is TOTALLY irrelevant to the point I was trying to bring across, and since some people find it distasteful, I removed it.
I apologize for my quick statement yesterday that came across very harshly and I also admire your response...
Good luck making any inroads after putting someone down like that.
+100 but I assume it's just showmanship for his frum audiences
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 02:01:39 PM
+100 but I assume it's just showmanship for his frum audiences
I honestly don't know who is being discussed here. I was just making a statement based on observation and reading.

I buy for my DW the Israeli Mishpacha and Sha'a Tova magazines every week. While I don't find much value in them, the exception to that is the weekly column in the Sha'a Tova magazine of Rabbi Asher Yechiel Kasel who runs an educational facility for teenagers that went (or are in the process of going) OTD. I find that there's a lot to be learned from his writings (and obviously from his experience). I am unaware of any book that he wrote, nor of anything in English from him. I did find the following link to some of his articles, which I highly recommend: http://www.yahadoot.net/category.asp?cid=27

I think we will all do better for ourselves, our children, and our communities, if we would approach everyone (including ourselves) as someone who we would like to be mekarev out of pure אהבת ישראל. We will all benefit from a much richer Yiddishkeit experience, and much better interpersonal relationships.

Obviously the case in question under the current discussion is very different, as it involves a more mature (as far as the calendar is concerned) individual who already has a family of his own. I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but some of the advice given above of just listening to the individual in question sounds right to me. It would obviously be best to be guided by an expert (and a LOR who specializes in the fifth part of Shuchan Oruch).

Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
...my quick statement yesterday that came across very harshly
I must have needed it. http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/hymym/8/12
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Aaaron on June 27, 2017, 05:41:03 PM
A close friend of mine is r"l slipping down very bad. Right now he is at the stage where r"l he doesn't believe in "Torah min hashamyim", "am hanivchar", etc. can anyone recommend any solid good books on these topics which I can send him to read?
Wasn't sure where to post this. Couldn't find anything on this topic. If there is a already a thread on this topic please direct me

As others have said, just be there for him as a friend.  IME, the vast majority of people who start questioning a deeply-held faith only do so when something in their life isn't going well: personally, financially, etc.  It leads to questions that they often feel are better than the answers.

So help him out with whatever these issues are, be a friend, confidante, etc., and don't be overly judgmental because that certainly won't help.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Boruch999 on June 27, 2017, 06:02:09 PM
Should I just sit back and watch him drown? Was walking home with him in Shabbos and got home nauseous from all the garbage he told me. What did my listening help....

You seem to think that he may be receptive to books which address his issues.  Many here seem to doubt that is the case, but they haven't spoken to him, you have.  If you post some of the garbage he told you, someone may be able to recommend a book which addresses that particular garbage.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
You seem to think that he may be receptive to books which address his issues.  Many here seem to doubt that is the case, but they haven't spoken to him, you have.  If you post some of the garbage he told you, someone may be able to recommend a book which addresses that particular garbage.

+100
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 27, 2017, 06:37:02 PM
You seem to think that he may be receptive to books which address his issues.  Many here seem to doubt that is the case, but they haven't spoken to him, you have.  If you post some of the garbage he told you, someone may be able to recommend a book which addresses that particular garbage.
I thought I did list the issues but if not let's start with "Torah Min Hashmayim"
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Boruch999 on June 27, 2017, 07:20:06 PM
I thought I did list the issues but if not let's start with "Torah Min Hashmayim"
Permission to Receive

Though believing in Torah Min Hashamayim requires one to first believe in Hashem.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 08:03:39 PM
I thought I did list the issues but if not let's start with "Torah Min Hashmayim"
Hard to believe that a ffb really has this issue as a root cause of the problem.

Is he eating traif?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 08:04:16 PM
Hard to believe that a ffb really has this issue as a root cause of the problem.

Is he eating traif?
cholov stam
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 08:09:59 PM
cholov stam
I was being serious
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 08:17:55 PM
cholov stam
IINM that could bring about sfeikos in emunah. Though I don't think this is a matter to joke about, I think cbc was asking a serious question in order to find out how far this individual has fallen.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 08:24:56 PM
If the root cause is Taiva, then how will a book or intellectual conversation help?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 08:37:52 PM
IINM that could bring about sfeikos in emunah. Though I don't think this is a matter to joke about, I think cbc was asking a serious question in order to find out how far this individual has fallen.
Yes, eating non kosher food is directly related to losing the taste for yidishkeit and emuna in torah min hashamayim absorbed by virtually all ffbs..

Question is how to deal with it? 
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 08:41:18 PM
If the root cause is Taiva, then how will a book or intellectual conversation help?
+1 so true.

A spiritual boost is required to counter the pull of the geshem. Question is what kind of spiritual boost is appropriate.

ExG might tell you it's a bottle of cheap vodka and a fabregin... ;)
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 08:44:18 PM
+1 so true.

A spiritual boost is required to counter the pull of the geshem. Question is what kind of spiritual boost is appropriate.

ExG might tell you it's a bottle of cheap vodka and a fabregin... ;)

...and he may be correct.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 09:12:40 PM
+1 so true.

A spiritual boost is required to counter the pull of the geshem. Question is what kind of spiritual boost is appropriate.

ExG might tell you it's a bottle of cheap vodka and a fabregin... ;)
I take that as a personal insult! Cheap Vodka is unacceptable!

As for the spiritual boost, I really think that learning with a good chavrusa or Rabbi that will listen and validate has the best potential. There are also some experiences that can help, but those aren't something one might be able to schedule as easily as just learning Torah.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 09:15:12 PM
I take that as a personal insult! Cheap Vodka is unacceptable!

As for the spiritual boost, I really think that learning with a good chavrusa or Rabbi that will listen and validate has the best potential. There are also some experiences that can help, but those aren't something one might be able to schedule as easily as just learning Torah.
And the Vodka and fabrengin/kumzitz/BBQ/Whatever other smiley event are tools to get them to come.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 09:56:23 PM
Permission to Receive

Though believing in Torah Min Hashamayim requires one to first believe in Hashem.
I read some of the reviews on Amazon to get the gist of it.

From what I read there, I think the strongest argument (which IMHO talks also on levels other than intellect) is:

Quote
In the first case, he wonders why secular Bible critics have ignored the mass of commentary in the Talmud expressly devoted to explaining all the apparent textual contradictions that secular critics seem to think nobody ever noticed before.

This can be rephrased with a little more context, bringing to the surface the breadth of knowledge and understanding of true gedolei Yisroel, starting with תנאים ואמוראים, and continuing throughput the generations. All of those were definitely familiar with any questions you might have, and had a much wider knowledge, allowing them to see even questions you don't see, yet they are steadfast in יג עיקרים!

I think that once one internalizes this reality, all counter arguments (as seen in negative review) become irrelevant.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 10:06:28 PM
I read some of the reviews on Amazon to get the gist of it.

From what I read there, I think the strongest argument (which IMHO talks also on levels other than intellect) is:

This can be rephrased with a little more context, bringing to the surface the breadth of knowledge and understanding of true gedolei Yisroel, starting with תנאים ואמוראים, and continuing throughput the generations. All of those were definitely familiar with any questions you might have, and had a much wider knowledge, allowing them to see even questions you don't see, yet they are steadfast in יג עיקרים!

I think that once one internalizes this reality, all counter arguments (as seen in negative review) become irrelevant.

It would helpful to see an example. Such as, what's the bomb kasha,how did Chazal answer it and how the Bible critics answer it.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 27, 2017, 11:02:39 PM
Hard to believe that a ffb really has this issue as a root cause of the problem.

Is he eating traif?

I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes.
If the root cause is Taiva, then how will a book or intellectual conversation help?
Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?

Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 11:07:20 PM
I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes. Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?
I was going to mention R Miller's books but they are written in a very intellectual manner and he may not actually read them.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: precise on June 27, 2017, 11:11:38 PM
I was going to mention R Miller's books but they are written in a very intellectual manner and he may not actually read them.
Correct. His stuff weren't written for today's otd chassidim which are ignoramus. Is this true for this particular book as well?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: ExGingi on June 27, 2017, 11:31:48 PM
Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh.
So how is any intellectual argument going to help with that?

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The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...
It might be missing, and it might not be missing. Taavos are very strong, sometimes they can overpower even someone with strong foundations. And once things begin, one never knows where they can end. Maybe the right approach would be to start talking to him about his kids, which I would assume he loves, and how he would like them to grow up.

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So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more
You are making some good arguments here, which leads me back to the conclusion, that guidance from an expert, rather than from friends on DDF, is what's called for.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 11:33:07 PM
So how is any intellectual argument going to help with that?
It might be missing, and it might not be missing. Taavos are very strong, sometimes they can overpower even someone with strong foundations. And once things begin, one never knows where they can end. Maybe the right approach would be to start talking to him about his kids, which I would assume he loves, and how he would like them to grow up.
You are making some good arguments here, which leads me back to the conclusion, that guidance from an expert, rather than from friends on DDF, is what's called for.
there is even a psychological term for it. Cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 11:35:02 PM
I do not know if he eats treif but based on his language I wouldn't be shocked an iota if yes. Imho this particular case (and lots of other cases) the root cause is absolutely taaveh. The issue is since it is taaveh they have a guilty conscience and try covering it up with all sorts of theological questions. Once they start reading apikorses and the likes, since  the rock solid foundation of yiddishkeit is missing they get all excited and start believing there might be some truth to the garbage. And so it continues...if R"L there is no schar v'oinesh then let's do as we please...

So if I can provide this fellow with some material on the basics #1 he will see none of the questions were born today and however strong the questions Judaism is stronger and #2 even if I won't get him to that point of realizing the truth it'll definitely give him some guilt feelings which might stop him from slipping more

Has anyone ever read R Avogadro Millers book The truth of the Torah?
Do you really think he read things which opened questions or just that he knows of there existence or maybe not even that?
Title: Re: Percentage Of Kids Texting On Shabbos
Post by: avremel on June 30, 2017, 08:35:37 AM
Like a Rosh Yeshiva once told me, that the reason why there's no haskalah today is because no one cares, and no one thinks. He said there's a maalah that no one thinks bec. there's no haskala, but the chisaron is that the yiddishkeit is less strong. He said he doesn't know if the pros of a non-thinking generation outweigh the cons.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe aggrees with distinction between Europe and America, and provides his own solution (Igros Koshesh Vol 15 P 44):

...וכבר אמרתי כמה פעמים שאחת המעלות טובות דאמריקה לגבי אירופה מאז, היא שהמצב כאן הוא לא מציאות הרע שמוכרח להלחם בו, אלא בעיקר עם-הארצות (שהוא רק ענין של העדר ושלילה) שהביא לידי חלל רוחני והעדר תוכן. ולכן הקו דעשה טוב עוד יותר מחוייב כאן, וכל הויכוחים הם בדרגה שני' ואפשר שלישית ועוד למטה. ובעיקר - צריך להפיץ דיעות ישרות מבוססות על התורה ועל המסורה. ובימינו אלה בפרט, בכדי שהתעמולה הזאת תתקבל על דעת חוגים רחבים, וביחוד בין הנוער, מוכרח שתהי' חדורה אור וחיות ותנועה של שמחה, שגם אלה מתכונות ויסודות שיטת החסידות.