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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Galitzyaner on August 30, 2012, 10:57:08 PM

Title: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 30, 2012, 10:57:08 PM
Yup!  According to "well known maggid shiur in Mir" (http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44073)
Ra Elyashiv was murdered via bochurim and avreichim using smartphones!

Wait, it's not over! The Shomrei Emunim Rebbe was also murdered! (http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44073)  ::)

Any body here that learns/learnt in Mir familiar with this Maggid Shiur?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Ergel on August 30, 2012, 10:59:30 PM
I thought I asked you already to deposit the chip from your shoulder somewhere
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on August 30, 2012, 11:07:42 PM
I thought I asked you already to deposit the chip from your shoulder somewhere
???
(side point:) and who are you? :P
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2012, 05:26:46 AM
Yup!  According to "well known maggid shiur in Mir" (http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44073)
Ra Elyashiv was murdered via bochurim and avreichim using smartphones!

Wait, it's not over! The Shomrei Emunim Rebbe was also murdered! (http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=44073)  ::)

Any body here that learns/learnt in Mir familiar with this Maggid Shiur?

Did they catch them yet?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 03, 2012, 05:35:44 AM
Was it Apple or Android?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 03, 2012, 09:03:42 AM
Seriously, what is the joke???

It is a pasuk in Chumash! This is for real!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: good sam on September 03, 2012, 10:10:52 AM
Seriously, what is the joke???

It is a pasuk in Chumash! This is for real!
ואל תשתמשו בטלפון פן תמות כל גדולי ישראל
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2012, 12:20:02 PM
ואל תשתמשו בטלפון חכם פן ימותו כל גדולי ישראל
FTFY
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 03, 2012, 03:31:52 PM
Cute.  :P

I don't know what the joke is. Our actions make a difference. Kol Yisroel Areivim zeh lazeh.

Do you really not know what passuk I'm talking about?  :-[
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 03, 2012, 03:51:35 PM
Be realistic: a 100yr old is due to die with or without me having a dirty cellphone.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2012, 03:53:09 PM
Cute.  :P

I don't know what the joke is. Our actions make a difference. Kol Yisroel Areivim zeh lazeh.

Do you really not know what passuk I'm talking about?  :-[
Of course our actions all have some influence on how the Lord (can that be written?) judges us as a nation. But we have no idea on the exact cause and effect. For all we know he died b/c of ppl throwing rocks at cars on shabbos. But the point is that we don't know, and it doesn't benefit anyone for us to pretend like we know the Lord's 'mind'.
Unless this was a nevuah or ruach hakodesh, but that's a whole different story.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2012, 03:54:02 PM
Be realistic: a 100yr old is due to die with or without me having a dirty cellphone.
If it's dirty, you should use one of those special soft rags to wipe it down. Otherwise, it'll stop working b/f it should, and it won't look good on dates.
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 03, 2012, 03:55:58 PM
Of course our actions all have some influence on how the Lord (can that be written?)
That refers to j-s
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 03, 2012, 03:59:36 PM
Be realistic: a 100yr old is due to die with or without me having a dirty cellphone.
The Rambam has some nasty words to say about someone who thinks like you. I'll post the exact quote later if I have time to find it. It ain't pretty.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 03, 2012, 04:00:17 PM
Be realistic: a 100yr old is due to die with or without me having a dirty cellphone.
as they say in KBP, "so what?"

Of course our actions all have some influence on how the Lord (can that be written?) judges us as a nation. But we have no idea on the exact cause and effect. For all we know he died b/c of ppl throwing rocks at cars on shabbos. But the point is that we don't know, and it doesn't benefit anyone for us to pretend like we know the Lord's 'mind'.
Unless this was a nevuah or ruach hakodesh, but that's a whole different story.
sometimes we don't know, but it is clear that "v'shav meacharecha" is harmful. Klal Yisroel is in a matzav of sakana, on an individual and general level, so many sick people, Hashem Yerachem. When we strengthen ourselves, we bring more protection from the shchina. That is what we know, as maaminim bnei maaminim.

Sometimes it is more clear, the cause and effect is obvious or hinted. I know one case that it was clear but will not go into details here. The point I think is that we need to raise our protection, bring the shchina closer and not chase it away, always and especially at such a critical time.

There are stories of the opposite happening, how someone exerted himself in shemiras einaim and saved a life. When it is obvious, it is obvious, like if at the same time etc.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 03, 2012, 04:01:29 PM
If it's dirty, you should use one of those special soft rags to wipe it down. Otherwise, it'll stop working b/f it should, and it won't look good on dates.

and leitzanus achas ...

this is seriously talking about nefashos, life and death. ELUL!!!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 03, 2012, 06:27:08 PM
Just a reminder: this is a secular forum (which accidentally attracted an out-of-proportion crowd of religious hawks), so please be tolerant. Thanks.
#lamdan
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 06:33:00 PM
The Rambam has some nasty words to say about someone who thinks like you. I'll post the exact quote later if I have time to find it. It ain't pretty.
Toisfos and Rabeinu Bachai, to name 2.

But yes, thats an interesting Rambam.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 03, 2012, 06:42:28 PM
This is very strange to me. He was ka"h a very old man and lived a beautiful and fruitful and exemplary life that most people wish they could have - and we are trying to blame his death on something as if he nebach died at 50 in a car accident chas veshalom!! cmon! most gedolim didn't live to be that old and pass away with a clear mind!! he said vidui in his last years many times! he lived a beautiful life and then went on to his rightful place - why ion the world are we trivializing his life and death with nonsence!
so from now on every tzaddik that doesn't live till 120 will be blamed on technology?? what happened before tech
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 06:51:54 PM
This is very strange to me. He was ka"h a very old man and lived a beautiful and fruitful and exemplary life that most people wish they could have - and we are trying to blame his death on something as if he nebach died at 50 in a car accident chas veshalom!! cmon! most gedolim didn't live to be that old and pass away with a clear mind!! he said vidui in his last years many times! he lived a beautiful life and then went on to his rightful place - why ion the world are we trivializing his life and death with nonsence!
so from now on every tzaddik that doesn't live till 120 will be blamed on technology?? what happened before tech
Youre mixing two things. Wether or not his age is relevant to the matter, is to the best of my knowledge a hashakfic question debated in the Rishonim (unless the Rambam is מודה there is also a קץ קצוב for certain, natural deaths? Not sure)

Assuming it was caused by aviros, which aveira caused it is obviously topic for speculation. The Ramban (end of toras Hashem temima) says it's a Miztvas Essa for one to attempt to understand why GD punishes oneself. So we are obligated to engage in such speculation.

However determining it as a fact requires a נביא.

Wether or not having a smartphone is an aviera is obviously another question. One of my Roshei Yeshiva has an iPhone for example.

Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 03, 2012, 07:14:00 PM
My question is why do we assume he was niftar because of aveirus????? he wasn't niftar at age 50
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
My question is why do we assume he was niftar because of aveirus????? he wasn't niftar at age 50
The rambam holds every death is caused by something whereas other rishonim hold a person is born with a specific life quota.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 03, 2012, 07:20:30 PM
and we feel we're on th elevel to speculate about rav elyashiv? or about anyone for that matter?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 07:33:46 PM
and we feel we're on th elevel to speculate about rav elyashiv? or about anyone for that matter?
The Ramban (end of toras Hashem temima) says it's a Miztvas Essa for one to attempt to understand why GD punishes oneself. So we are obligated to engage in such speculation.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 03, 2012, 07:34:56 PM
Oneself or someone else?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
Oneself or someone else?
The loss of R Elyashiv is probably considered a personal loss to all, for example everyone is mechuyav to tear kriea.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 03, 2012, 07:39:57 PM
Mourning a tzadik is deifrent than trying to delve into the reasons of his loss
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 07:45:00 PM
Mourning a tzadik is deifrent than trying to delve into the reasons of his loss
But if kriea is reserved for personal losses, and yet we tear kriea fro the gadol hador, it would seem to classify it as a personal loss. Thus, it would seemingly fall under the Rambans chiyuv of delving into losses.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: e-Lawyer on September 03, 2012, 07:53:32 PM
who would know that by keeping my old trusty centro "dumb phone" I am saving the gedolim "one dumb phone at a time"
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 03, 2012, 07:57:37 PM
Toisfos and Rabeinu Bachai, to name 2.

But yes, thats an interesting Rambam.
I'm talking about a different Rambam, but I am scared to misquote, I am still looking for it. Looking for Baki.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 03, 2012, 07:58:44 PM
Just a reminder: this is a secular forum (which accidentally attracted an out-of-proportion crowd of religious hawks), so please be tolerant. Thanks.
#lamdan
This may be a secular forum, but this is most definitely a religious thread.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 03, 2012, 08:00:13 PM

However determining it as a fact requires a נביא.

+1,000,000
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: MarkS on September 03, 2012, 08:13:25 PM
who would know that by keeping my old trusty centro "dumb phone" I am saving the gedolim "one dumb phone at a time"
When it comes to this, Centro's (with email, internet, texting etc) are smartphones!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 03, 2012, 10:23:51 PM
The loss of R Elyashiv is probably considered a personal loss to all, for example everyone is mechuyav to tear kriea.
You mean you really tore kriya? Just askin'..
(not at all trying to ch'v belittle Rav Elyashiv in any way, just a matter of how personal this is -and for who..)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: AsherO on September 03, 2012, 10:37:06 PM
The rambam holds every death is caused by something whereas other rishonim hold a person is born with a specific life quota.

Doesn't the gemara say:
Quote
ארבעה מתו בעטיו של נחש

And (hashgacha pratis today's daf):

Quote
אין ערוד ממית אלא החטא ממית

??
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2012, 10:49:32 PM
That refers to j-s
Only b/c that's how they use it. How do we translate Ado..i?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2012, 10:53:07 PM
The rambam holds every death is caused by something whereas other rishonim hold a person is born with a specific life quota.
I assume you say this statement referring to a gadol only, b/c the gemara says that deaths can happen even not 'in their time' if a person puts himself into the situation. (which obviously in not the case here, but you did you the term 'every')
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: mclovin on September 03, 2012, 10:57:46 PM
Only b/c that's how they use it. How do we translate Ado..i?
Master?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 03, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
@ashero, it is a big topic in rishonmin, will post sources tomorrow.

There's a letter from the Rambam, a tosifos kesuvos 33a
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Chaikel on September 04, 2012, 03:39:40 AM
If he was killed by phones, it was by the scam artists that created kosher phones, and by all the other menuvalim bcvod hatorah who made up psakim from R Elyashev just so they could make millions
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 04, 2012, 03:48:51 AM

And (hashgacha pratis today's daf):
Quote
אין ערור ממית אלא החטא ממית

??
That means that if someone is bitten he will die because he has sinned, as you see that R' Channina didn't die from the bite because he is a tzaddik
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 04:35:28 AM
You mean you really tore kriya? Just askin'..
(not at all trying to ch'v belittle Rav Elyashiv in any way, just a matter of how personal this is -and for who..)
I was unsure if it applies only when attending the levaya. At R Shachs levaya I did tear kriya, as did everyone else there. I did not find out in time, as I was hoping to make it to the levayah (and tear there), however was involved in literal pikuach nefesh at the time and did not go.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 04:39:14 AM
I assume you say this statement referring to a gadol only, b/c the gemara says that deaths can happen even not 'in their time' if a person puts himself into the situation. (which obviously in not the case here, but you did you the term 'every')
The rishonim discuss this and other questions.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 04:43:38 AM
If he was killed by phones, it was by the scam artists that created kosher phones, and by all the other menuvalim bcvod hatorah who made up psakim from R Elyashev just so they could make millions

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 04:47:16 AM
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
The Kosher phone was implemented by R Nosson Tzvi Finkel Zt"L. I know this firsthand. I have heard rumors certain features, such as texting, camera, games, etc were removed due to various other pressures.

That's not to say there's no corruption, I even know of a little of it personally.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 04, 2012, 07:53:06 AM
and we feel we're on th elevel to speculate about rav elyashiv? or about anyone for that matter?

The OP was about a magid shiur in the MIR, not some "meshugena lamdan" on ddf, nothing personal. The gedolim have spoken about this. I just saw a sign today quoting Rav Chaim Kanievsky and iirc Rav AYL Shteinman Shlita, both expressing such sentiments, that because of people's aveirus, lo yireh becha ervas davar, there are tragedies happening in the recent past.

My friend was by Rav Avigdor Miller ZT"L when the Gadol Hador was niftar. They asked Rav Miller why it happened. He said "what do you think, he should live forever? He lived to a ripe old age." Afterwards he explained that lemaisa the reason was because we did not value and appreciate the Gadol enough. He used to give a shiur in his home and very few people would bother to go. That is why he was taken from us. If we don't appreciate the gedolim, Hashem takes them away.

It is clear that even when a Gadol is nifter at an old age, we still should learn from it.

Chaikel, if you have a point about kosher phones, how is that relevant here?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 08:22:16 AM
The Kosher phone was implemented by R Nosson Tzvi Finkel Zt"L. I know this firsthand. I have heard rumors certain features, such as texting, camera, games, etc were removed due to various other pressures.

That's not to say there's no corruption, I even know of a little of it personally.

That has always been my pet peeve. What does a camera or games have to do with "kosher"? Yes, if I waste time playing Snake when I should be learning, that is bittul torah - a terrible thing, true, but it has nothing to do with purity! The original stated intent of a "kosher" phone was to fight the "tarfus" of the Internet; why are we mixing in other things? What's next - a phone that prevents you from eating non-cholov yisroel? A phone that makes sure you wear tzitzis? Those are all wonderful things, but what do they have to do with fighting pritzus?

The Kosher phone was implemented by R Nosson Tzvi Finkel Zt"L. I know this firsthand. I have heard rumors certain features, such as texting, camera, games, etc were removed due to various other pressures.

That's not to say there's no corruption, I even know of a little of it personally.

Can you elaborate on these two points, please?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 08:23:48 AM
Chaikel, if you have a point about kosher phones, how is that relevant here?
If he was killed by phones, it was by the scam artists that created kosher phones, and by all the other menuvalim bcvod hatorah who made up psakim from R Elyashev just so they could make millions
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 04, 2012, 08:40:20 AM
made up psakim...

What does that have to do with this discussion? How many people made up psakim from poskim? That is why there are tragedies?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: A European on September 04, 2012, 08:52:32 AM
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
+1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 08:52:49 AM
What does that have to do with this discussion? How many people made up psakim from poskim? That is why there are tragedies?
Well, the argument du jour here seems to be that aveiros cause tragedies. Making up all kinds of garbage, then lying and saying a gadol said it, is an aveirah, no? Besides, you yourself just said...
My friend was by Rav Avigdor Miller ZT"L when the Gadol Hador was niftar. They asked Rav Miller why it happened. He said "what do you think, he should live forever? He lived to a ripe old age." Afterwards he explained that lemaisa the reason was because we did not value and appreciate the Gadol enough. He used to give a shiur in his home and very few people would bother to go. That is why he was taken from us. If we don't appreciate the gedolim, Hashem takes them away.
Wouldn't you agree that someone who knowingly lies - on a large scale - about what a gadol said, can safely be accused of not appreciating said gadol? One who truly appreciates a gadol would not dare besmirch him like that!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 04, 2012, 10:30:50 AM

It is clear that even when a Gadol is nifter at an old age, we still should learn from it.

Correct. We should do our best to improve ourselves, but not b/c a gadol passes away, but b/c we're ALWAYS supposed to be doing that.

But the problem that this thread was begun to address is our ability to give reasons for what happened.

So I could make a case that since the biggest aveirah is chillul hashem, (if you judge it be the difficulty of doing teshuva) that his death was due to ppl throwing rocks at cars on shabbos to protest them, and not guys looking at porn. But I won't, b/c I don't claim to know Hashem's reasons.

(And anyhow, isn't ironic how ppl always find Hashem's reasoning to be in perfect harmony with their own?)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 10:36:04 AM
(And anyhow, isn't ironic how ppl always find Hashem's reasoning to be in perfect harmony with their own?)

I know I said this about something else already, but...

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Chaikel on September 04, 2012, 11:16:37 AM
The Kosher phone was implemented by R Nosson Tzvi Finkel Zt"L.
Was not. He joined after they released them, and then they made it sound like he was along from the beginning.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 04, 2012, 03:02:03 PM
That has always been my pet peeve. What does a camera or games have to do with "kosher"? Yes, if I waste time playing Snake when I should be learning, that is bittul torah - a terrible thing, true, but it has nothing to do with purity! The original stated intent of a "kosher" phone was to fight the "tarfus" of the Internet; why are we mixing in other things? What's next - a phone that prevents you from eating non-cholov yisroel? A phone that makes sure you wear tzitzis? Those are all wonderful things, but what do they have to do with fighting pritzus?
Pet peeve of mine too. Keep focus on the big problem. I heard when the gedolim assered TV, it was proposed to assur radio also, and the gedolim held it would weaken the strength of the issur on TV, vehamayvin yavin.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: damaxer91 on September 04, 2012, 04:30:43 PM
I think that the issue at hand is that in E"Y there are lots of things that start out as Lishma (e.g kosher phones) but once they have the gedolim on board, the mafioso who run the newspapers, mikva's etc hijack it and turn it into a business
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 04:39:47 PM
I think that the issue at hand is that in E"Y there are lots of things that start out as Lishma (e.g kosher phones) but once they have the gedolim on board, the mafioso who run the newspapers, mikva's etc hijack it and turn it into a business
If only their interest would be money...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 05:27:00 PM
I think that the issue at hand is that in E"Y there are lots of things that start out as Lishma (e.g kosher phones) but once they have the gedolim on board, the mafioso who run the newspapers, mikva's etc hijack it and turn it into a business

And now, for the third time this thread...

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 05:27:30 PM
If only their interest would be money...

...then what is it?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 05:34:17 PM
...then what is it?
The interest of the ex editors of yated (forgot what they call their new paper) is not money. They have an entire agenda to promote, including other gedolim.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 05:41:00 PM
The interest of the ex editors of yated (forgot what they call their new paper) is not money. They have an entire agenda to promote, including other gedolim.
Oh. I thought we were talking about people who hijack stuff that started out for a "good" purpose ("kosher" phones, "kosher" bus service to Meron, etc).
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
Oh. I thought we were talking about people who hijack stuff that started out for a "good" purpose ("kosher" phones, "kosher" bus service to Meron, etc).
I don't think there's money in kosher buses (separation on egged city buses)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 05:55:51 PM
I don't think there's money in kosher buses (separation on egged city buses)

I'm not talking about Egged. I'm talking about how around Lag Ba'omer time, suddenly posters go up about how evil Egged is (remember that poster from a few years ago depicting three egged busses with steamroller wheels on the front, driving over hundreds of chareidim?), and "coincidentally" ads go up at the same time from Hoffman, Derech Chaim, Oheiv Kesef, Sonei Egged, Mavet L'egged, Egged Doreset Yeladeinu, etc. as they all come crawling out of the woodwork, promising "kosher" service.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: damaxer91 on September 04, 2012, 05:58:58 PM
...then what is it?

Sorry, Kavod is a factor as well

The thugs who fought El Al "Leman Shabbos Kodesh" got heavy kickbacks to back off and still make occasional threats.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 06:01:11 PM
I'm not talking about Egged. I'm talking about how around Lag Ba'omer time, suddenly posters go up about how evil Egged is (remember that poster from a few years ago depicting three egged busses with steamroller wheels on the front, driving over hundreds of chareidim?), and "coincidentally" ads go up at the same time from Hoffman, Derech Chaim, Oheiv Kesef, Sonei Egged, Mavet L'egged, Egged Doreset Yeladeinu, etc. as they all come crawling out of the woodwork, promising "kosher" service.
I didn't say none of it is money. But for example the 'mehadrin' separation does not seem to be motivated by money

The people going around with (fake) videos if R Elayshiv assering sheitels, aren't making money. Perhaps attention, but definitely no kavod.


Anybody remember the anti kugel posters?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: damaxer91 on September 04, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
I didn't say none of it is money. But for example the 'mehadrin' separation does not seem to be motivated by money

The people going around with (fake) videos if R Elayshiv assering sheitels, aren't making money. Perhaps attention, but definitely no kavod.


Anybody remember the anti kugel posters?

Kavod is what they are feeling when they see people responding. Yes, there are a few of them that are Leshma, but most are burnt out guys who's only way to gain respect is by running around getting Gedolim to sign off on their agendas.

There are few people I respect more in Israel than the people behind Kemach and other organizations working to get people off the streets and train them to make a proper living and actually support a family in a legitimate fashion
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 06:07:27 PM
Kavod is what they are feeling when they see people responding. Yes, there are a few of them that are Leshma, but most are burnt out guys who's only way to gain respect is by running around getting Gedolim to sign off on their agendas.

There are few people I respect more in Israel than the people behind Kemach and other organizations working to get people off the streets and train them to make a proper living and actually support a family in a legitimate fashion
I hope you're right.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: SamDaMan on September 04, 2012, 06:40:50 PM
www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139247/Rosh+Yeshiva+Pasuls+Witness+at+Chupah+Because+of+iPhone.html
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 04, 2012, 06:55:08 PM
www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139247/Rosh+Yeshiva+Pasuls+Witness+at+Chupah+Because+of+iPhone.html
Not the first such story, either.

So nice and heartwarming when prominent "rabonim" are mevazeh someone b'rabim, all for the "crime" of having a smartphone.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 07:06:14 PM
Will this RY also not marry the son of a couple married after divorce by such eidem?
Because according to him they are mamzeriim.


I'm daan lkaf zechus that this RY was doing it to teach a lesson to his talmidim, and does not actually believe it.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 04, 2012, 10:25:23 PM
love the fact that by the citifield event everyone was so uplifted by the "achdus" of klal yisrael and we just keep seeing more and more separation as a result of the event
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 04, 2012, 11:21:17 PM
love the fact that by the citifield event everyone was so uplifted by the "achdus" of klal yisrael and we just keep seeing more and more separation as a result of the event
in theory unified separation is also achdus.

(Not that I'm pro asifa)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: whYME on September 04, 2012, 11:32:44 PM
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Reminds me of something I saw recently:


(is it wrong of me to post a youtube video in such a thread?)
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: SamDaMan on September 05, 2012, 12:05:26 AM
www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139247/Rosh+Yeshiva+Pasuls+Witness+at+Chupah+Because+of+iPhone.html
@YiddishNews: Israel: The R"Y R'Feinstein Of Amule Shel Torah was Siddur Kedishen at simcha mon & saw 1 eidis had iPhone told him he was Pusel for eidis
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 05, 2012, 01:11:34 AM
The interest of the ex editors of yated (forgot what they call their new paper) is not money. They have an entire agenda to promote, including other gedolim.
Hence the fist fights and legal fights a few months back over the editorial direction of the paper. Hardly seems to be leshem shamayim

Not the first such story, either.

So nice and heartwarming when prominent "rabonim" are mevazeh someone b'rabim, all for the "crime" of having a smartphone.

On the plus side, this will solve the problems of agunas. In most weddings, we can assume that the eidim as well as the entire crowd have a non-kosher phone.
A kula! Yay! :)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 05, 2012, 01:21:56 AM
Hence the fist fights and legal fights a few months back over the editorial direction of the paper. Hardly seems to be leshem shamayim

On the plus side, this will solve the problems of agunas. In most weddings, we can assume that the eidim as well as the entire crowd have a non-kosher phone.
A kula! Yay! :)
I didn't want to post it earlier, but yes this is major hotzas shem raa. The gemara makes special takoonos so people won't think certain circumstances aren't valid kidushin and be matir the wife.

To me the ultimate test is what R Akiva Eiger (etc) would do if he was standing there. And I think he would've publicly condemned this RY.
Title: Re: Nachpesa Darkeinu ...
Post by: shmuelb on September 05, 2012, 02:31:54 AM
Well, the argument du jour here seems to be that aveiros cause tragedies. Making up all kinds of garbage, then lying and saying a gadol said it, is an aveirah, no? Besides, you yourself just said...Wouldn't you agree that someone who knowingly lies - on a large scale - about what a gadol said, can safely be accused of not appreciating said gadol? One who truly appreciates a gadol would not dare besmirch him like that!

The passuk is talking about something else, "lo yire becha ervas davar" not about kavod, sheker or gezel etc. We can look at what others are doing wrong and hock about it (Daf Yomi last Fri.) or we can look at ourself in the mirror, make the world a better place. I heard from the Rebbe (of Yaroslav) a few years ago that what our generation should work on is "each person should work on their own things". If a gadol says that smart phones are causing tragedies and calamities, if we use them and know what is wrong with them, we can try to do something or we can deflect the criticism by pointing out corruption and foibles in others.


I don't know what the real intentions of all these people are, but maybe they are l'shem Shamayim, just misguided and have negius from mamon or kavod...

I didn't say none of it is money.
Anybody remember the anti kugel posters?
About Yerushalmi Kugel and Pickles! It was awesome!  8)
Reminds me of something I saw recently:
(is it wrong of me to post a youtube video in such a thread?)
IMHO yes.


Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Chaikel on September 05, 2012, 08:20:16 AM
Because according to him they are mamzeriim.
Children born out of wedlock are not mamzeirim
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 05, 2012, 08:51:21 AM
Children born out of wedlock are not mamzeirim
Re-read it...
Will this RY also not marry the son of a couple married after divorce by such eidem?
Because according to him they are mamzeriim.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Chaikel on September 05, 2012, 09:12:57 AM
Re-read it...
whoops
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 05, 2012, 06:00:07 PM
Was not. He joined after they released them, and then they made it sound like he was along from the beginning.
There's no point arguing who knows better (won't make much of a difference either way), but just FYI my comment was based on multiple conversations with at least one peer of R NT Finkel, with whom IIRC RNTF consulted regarding this.

I dont recall the exact turn of events (I didn't have a cellphone at all at the time), however it gradually became mainstream after the Kennes which RNTF gathered and cried at.

Today virtually every chariedi Israeli has a kosher phone. A few have both, myself included.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 05, 2012, 06:51:09 PM

Today virtually every chariedi Israeli has a kosher phone. A few Many people - perhaps most - have both, myself included.

FTFY
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 05, 2012, 07:23:49 PM
FTFY
That's completely not true.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 05, 2012, 07:25:06 PM
That's completely not true.
Sorry, but my experience has been otherwise.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 05, 2012, 09:27:33 PM
That's completely not true.
Sorry, but my experience has been otherwise.
Perhaps Moishebatchy has access to what really lies under ppls mattresses  ;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 06, 2012, 01:06:58 AM
Today virtually every chariedi Israeli has a kosher phone. A few have both, myself included.
Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 06, 2012, 01:14:23 AM
Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Its cheaper for my friends to call it, and just a cheap phone to have when I need to be on two things at once.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 06, 2012, 03:32:37 AM
Its cheaper for my friends to call it, and just a cheap phone to have when I need to be on two things at once.


But it has no internet I assume? :)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 03:35:13 AM
Perhaps Moishebatchy has access to what really lies under ppls mattresses  ;)
When you see CONSTANTLY see people wearing me'ushar phones on their belt, but furtively pulling out a so-called "treife" phone to answer a text, and this happens MANY times a day - in shul, in yeshiva, at the supermarket, at simchos - for the past FIVE YEARS, you kinda start to feel there's a pattern after a while. Want proof? Just go to any Israel simcha or speech, and count how many people are tap-tap-tapping away under the table.

When I first came to Israel 5 years ago most people - including %95 of my yeshiva - were getting kosher phones... but for one reason only: because they were dirt-cheap compared the the regular ones. True, maybe not everyone had an additional, non-kosher phone, since it was easier to just live without texting for them; but virtually everyone admitted to price being the reason. Almost nobody did it "l'sheim shamayim". And you know what the biggest proof is? Now that someone took the Israeli carriers down a peg, and regular cell service is becoming more and more affordable (think Golan), I see more people with non-kosher phones...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 06, 2012, 03:46:25 AM
But it has no internet I assume? :)
The kosher phone? No internet. I have no issue with using internet, evidently. And my BB has internet

A friend of mine wanted to suggest to the קרן לישראל חדשה to give out iPhones to yeshiva bachurim....
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 04:08:39 AM
The kosher phone? No internet. I have no issue with using internet, evidently. And my BB has internet

A friend of mine wanted to suggest to the קרן לישראל חדשה to give out iPhones to yeshiva bachurim....

Like!

(Just kidding. I'm not THAT crazy.)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 06, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
The kosher phone? No internet. I have no issue with using internet, evidently. And my BB has internet
But why have both is the treif one has internet. Doesnt it defeat the purpose of the kosher one?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 06:39:29 AM
But why have both is the treif one has internet. Doesnt it defeat the purpose of the kosher one?

No, it doesn't. Because as I pointed out, the true purpose of a kosher phone (for many people) is just to get cheaper phone service. So that purpose is accomplished beautifully, while the secondary phone can be used for text/Internet.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 06, 2012, 06:58:37 AM
No, it doesn't. Because as I pointed out, the true purpose of a kosher phone (for many people) is just to get cheaper phone service. So that purpose is accomplished beautifully, while the secondary phone can be used for text/Internet.
:)
I was referring to the stated reason.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 06:59:21 AM
:)
I was referring to the stated reason.
Well, those who get it for the stated reason, don't get a secondary phone.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 06, 2012, 08:34:01 AM
The kosher phone? No internet. I have no issue with using internet, evidently. And my BB has internet

A friend of mine wanted to suggest to the קרן לישראל חדשה to give out iPhones to yeshiva bachurim....

Chas V'Shalom!  :o :o

My Rav told me to get a Kosher phone - to switch from my old one, so that is why I did it. It actually was more expensive. I had an Orange Shabbat plan, ZERO monthly fee, 60 minutes to Orange FREE each month. I got a kosher cellcom, 10 shek monthly fee, no free minutes. Instead of guessing why ppl have kosher phones, you can ask them and maybe when they are scratching their head, it is because it is itchy, not because they have a non-kosher bluetooth headpiece.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 08:39:36 AM
Chas V'Shalom!  :o :o

My Rav told me to get a Kosher phone - to switch from my old one, so that is why I did it. It actually was more expensive. I had an Orange Shabbat plan, ZERO monthly fee, 60 minutes to Orange FREE each month. I got a kosher cellcom, 10 shek monthly fee, no free minutes.
In your particular case, you happened to have the bad luck that your former plan was a very good one. Most people did not start out on such a good plan - for them, switching to kosher is an upgrade in terms of pricing.
Instead of guessing why ppl have kosher phones, you can ask them and maybe when they are scratching their head, it is because it is itchy, not because they have a non-kosher bluetooth headpiece.

Oh, so now Bluetooth is treif too? Didn't know it could pic-to-speech inappropriate images to you...

(For the record, some newer kosher phones do have BT support.)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 06, 2012, 08:45:04 AM
No, I'm talking about a bt device like the bt gloves but with internet etc.

Just because some ppl do not follow daas Torah and do whatever they want doesn't meant that everyone is like that.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 06, 2012, 09:06:23 AM
Just because some ppl do not follow daas Torah and do whatever they want doesn't meant that everyone is like that.
Not e/o's 'daas torah' is the same...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 06, 2012, 10:09:34 AM
@shmuellb
How do you post on DDF?
You have voice-to-text on your kosher phone that let you post here?
Cool technology!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2012, 10:12:52 AM
No, I'm talking about a bt device like the bt gloves but with internet etc.

Huh?!

 
maybe when they are scratching their head, it is because it is itchy, not because they have a non-kosher bluetooth headpiece.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 06, 2012, 10:28:08 AM
No, I'm talking about a bt device like the bt gloves but with internet etc.

Just because some ppl do not follow daas Torah and do whatever they want doesn't meant that everyone is like that.
my RY has an iPhone. Take it easy.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 06, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
Just because some ppl do not follow daas Torah and do whatever they want doesn't meant that everyone is like that.
Did you hear a בת קול?
my RY has an iPhone. Take it easy.
;D 
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 06, 2012, 07:18:13 PM
on a side note, never heard of this magid shiur, anyone know who he is?  which bais medrash? 
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 06, 2012, 07:27:24 PM
on a side note, never heard of this magid shiur, anyone know who he is?  which bais medrash?
Uhh!  Thank you Yare for bringing back by original question! 
I thought there was a whole large crowd from Mir here  :-\
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 06, 2012, 07:36:41 PM
which bais medrash?
The article says the Kastenr BM, which IIRC is the Israeli kollel?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 06, 2012, 08:48:03 PM
The article says the Kastenr BM, which IIRC is the Israeli kollel?
That would partially explain..
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 10, 2012, 03:17:11 PM
It's the Israeli chabura in the big EN of the Merkazi.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 10, 2012, 03:35:50 PM
It's the Israeli chabura in the big EN of the Merkazi.
Whatever that means...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 10, 2012, 03:44:36 PM
@shmuellb
How do you post on DDF?
You have voice-to-text on your kosher phone that let you post here?
Cool technology!
+1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 10, 2012, 03:50:07 PM
Whatever that means...

EN stands for Ezras ...

+1
very cool stuff. You type with the glove on and no keyboard (or use a keyboard thats off or whatever) and it figures out what you want to say/type. It also has an add-on for sign language and google morse code  ;)

Amazing what they invent these days!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 10, 2012, 04:06:54 PM
EN stands for Ezras ...
I'll write it for you @shmuelb, NOSHIM  ;)
I didn't ask you to write רָחָב :D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 10, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Wow thanks! I couldn't figure it out myself, I knew it started with Ezras but kept thinking Achim or Avoseinu or Avtinas which do not start with N.  :-[ ???

Thanks! I thought you would appreciate it too.  :P
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 10, 2012, 04:14:58 PM
This is what gave me the idea, here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=19755.msg296263)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 10, 2012, 04:45:00 PM
Regarding the "kosher cell phone" brouhaha..  This has got to be the story of the day:
When An iPhone is Discovered in a Bnei Brak Yeshiva (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139635/When-An-iPhone-is-Discovered-in-a-Bnei-Brak-Yeshiva.html)
HILARIOUS!  I can't figure out if it was written for comedy or in all seriousness  :D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 10, 2012, 06:13:41 PM
Regarding the "kosher cell phone" brouhaha..  This has got to be the story of the day:
When An iPhone is Discovered in a Bnei Brak Yeshiva (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/139635/When-An-iPhone-is-Discovered-in-a-Bnei-Brak-Yeshiva.html)
HILARIOUS!  I can't figure out if it was written for comedy or in all seriousness  :D
how nice judaism has turned to!
i wonder what the Gr''a would say to the geneiveh of smashing someone else's phone.

my fellow brothers! judaism is not that bad and nasty as these guys want you to believe!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 10, 2012, 06:30:10 PM
Whatever happened to "deracheha darkei no'am"? Did that get banned together with non-kosher phones?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: joey89 on September 10, 2012, 07:53:28 PM
im sure his chavrusah thanked him for saving his soul and offered to learn an extra hour a day with him :o
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 10, 2012, 08:05:30 PM
im sure his chavrusah thanked him for saving his soul and offered to learn an extra hour a day with him :o
Lol
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 10, 2012, 10:10:45 PM
how nice judaism has turned to!
i wonder what the Gr''a would say to the geneiveh of smashing someone else's phone.

my fellow brothers! judaism is not that bad and nasty as these guys want you to believe!
My RY used to say over a story that a jew once spoke in learning with the GRA, and he said "efsher rashi hut gemacht a ta'us" - maybe rashi made a mistake - they put him in a contraption outside the main shul of vilna that you can't move your hands or feet, and the whole vilna spit at him on their way into mincha.
#justsaying
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 10, 2012, 10:22:37 PM
My RY used to say over a story that a jew once spoke in learning with the GRA, and he said "efsher rashi hut gemacht a ta'us" - maybe rashi made a mistake - they put him in a contraption outside the main shul of vilna that you can't move your hands or feet, and the whole vilna spit at him on their way into mincha.
#justsaying
Sounds fit for Litte ;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 10, 2012, 10:23:34 PM
Michelle has 2 daughters, one is named Malia and the second one Sasha.
#justsying
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 10, 2012, 10:31:23 PM
Michelle has 2 daughters, one is named Malia and the second one Sasha.
#justsying
???
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 10, 2012, 10:32:24 PM
Michelle has 2 daughters, one is named Malia and the second one Sasha.
#justsying
+1 ???
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 10, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
wrong thread for shidduch ::) i think?
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: SamDaMan on September 10, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
Michelle has 2 daughters, one is named Malia and the second one Sasha.
#justsying
and they have a dog named bo
#justsaying
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 10, 2012, 11:08:54 PM
What's the ???
He posted a story with no relevance here.
Who gave a heter for that hit to smash the phone? The Gr"a?? That story your RY told you?
 And Btw, I don't know your RY, but I'd give it a 99% chance that his story of the Gr"a is not true (not that he make things up, could be he heard/read it from a non-reliable source.
Anyone here believe the Gr"a was ready to be mevayesh a person by such a nasty way just for a mouth-glitch? Tell me about!
I'd like to take a poll and see how many ppl believe this story.
Do you really think the Gr"a did it?? Come on!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 12:02:33 AM
What's the ???
He posted a story with no relevance here.
Who gave a heter for that hit to smash the phone? The Gr"a?? That story your RY told you?
 And Btw, I don't know your RY, but I'd give it a 99% chance that his story of the Gr"a is not true (not that he make things up, could be he heard/read it from a non-reliable source.
Anyone here believe the Gr"a was ready to be mevayesh a person by such a nasty way just for a mouth-glitch? Tell me about!
I'd like to take a poll and see how many ppl believe this story.
Do you really think the Gr"a did it?? Come on!
Dude, you obviously have zero clue about the history of jews in Europe, this spit contraption was in front of alot  of shuls  and used frequently.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 12:04:39 AM
so was the guillotine
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 11, 2012, 12:49:22 AM
Dude, you obviously have zero clue about the history of jews in Europe, this spit contraption was in front of alot  of shuls  and used frequently.

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but I do know a little about the history of Jews in Europe (albeit not Litta), and this is the first I've  heard of such a thing.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
Dude, you obviously have zero clue about the history of jews in Europe, this spit contraption was in front of alot  of shuls  and used frequently.

For a slip of the tongue?! I don't believe it either.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 11, 2012, 08:30:48 AM
I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but I do know a little about the history of Jews in Europe (albeit not Litta), and this is the first I've  heard of such a thing.
I've heard of the 'contraption' (the name escapes me at the moment), and it was a common form of punishement.
For a slip of the tongue?! I don't believe it either.
Obviously it wasnt perceived as just "A slip of the tongue" rather it showed an underlying attitude to Rishonim, which in Vilna would be seen as heresy.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 08:33:29 AM
.Obviously it wasnt perceived as just "A slip of the tongue" rather it showed an underlying attitude to Rishonim, which in Vilna would be seen as heresy.
It is not a slip of the tongue if someone says "efshar Rashi .."

That is a clear insight into his zooy brain. If the story is true or not, I don't know. The reaction to such a person should depend on the matzav, chanoch l'naar al pi darko. Sometimes you need to use your left hand more than your right. If it is a true story, that means that the GR"A knew that that  is what had to be done.
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 11, 2012, 08:33:46 AM
For a slip of the tongue?! I don't believe it either.


I don't know if the Gra did this or not. I would like to say no. But I do know the way they teach us about great people in general is that they were always right and always kind and they would never do such a thing when that's def not the case IMHO.
I also believe that these stories don't always reach us the exact way they actually happened. And that some may be completely false period.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 08:35:47 AM
I've heard of the 'contraption' (the name escapes me at the moment), and it was a common form of punishement.

I believe it was called "stocks".
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 11, 2012, 08:45:17 AM
I believe it was called "stocks".
I don't believe thats what it was, in my understanding it was more like a cage.


I don't know if the Gra did this or not. I would like to say no. But I do know the way they teach us about great people in general is that they were always right and always kind and they would never do such a thing when that's def not the case IMHO.

Case in point, the Cherem on Chassidim
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 01:08:23 PM
IIRC, the story I wrote about the GR"A was written by the person who got punished himself, in a book that he wrote about his travels across Europe, IIRC he says many shvachim about the GR"A who he had the privilege of meeting, he spoke to the GR"A about the translation of "Ditzah" which IIRC Rashi says means simcha, that's when he made his remark, IIRC, the story is also in the avrohom ben avrohom book, and in the book "HaGaon". If any of the DDF professional researchers/Googlers can find the name of the book where this story is told, it would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 11, 2012, 01:24:33 PM
The story of the golem has been published in many books as well. That doesn't make it any more true.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 01:39:48 PM
@Reuven, you brilliance overwhelms me. You make such smart comments. You're my favorite DDFer.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 11, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
@Reuven, you brilliance overwhelms me. You make such smart comments. You're my favorite DDFer.
:)

I try to hide it, but it usually shines through.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 11, 2012, 01:52:34 PM
The story of the golem has been published in many books as well. That doesn't make it any more true.
For some reason I find this one a bit more believable.
If I'm not mistaken the cage was called "Kalon".
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 01:53:40 PM
@Reuven, you brilliance overwhelms me. You make such smart comments. You're my favorite DDFer.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=15638.0
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 11, 2012, 01:58:47 PM
For some reason I find this one a bit more believable.
If I'm not mistaken the cage was called "Kalon".
I'm not commenting on this case. Just on the pervasive idea that if something is 'in a book' then it's true.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 02:02:35 PM
I'm not commenting on this case. Just on the pervasive idea that if something is 'in a book' then it's true.
Thanx for informing all us Dummies who believe everything written in a book, that it's not always true, we didn't know that. like I said,
@Reuven, you brilliance overwhelms me. You make such smart comments. You're my favorite DDFer.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 11, 2012, 02:33:28 PM
what do you mean its not true its "meforiash in a book" must be true ;D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 11, 2012, 03:01:18 PM
I think it's said about the baal Shem Tov: If you believe all the stories you are a fool if you don't you are an Apikores. If I see a story in a book and it seems reasonable/believable, I tend to believe it unless proven otherwise (obviously with a grain of salt unless proven true).
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 11, 2012, 03:03:13 PM
Thanx for informing all us Dummies who believe everything written in a book, that it's not always true, we didn't know that. like I said,

Not to worry, there are many very smart ppl who may believe it. This comment below is a possible example.

...the story is also in the avrohom ben avrohom book, and in the book "HaGaon". If any of the DDF professional researchers/Googlers can find the name of the book where this story is told, it would be greatly appreciated.

;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 03:19:35 PM
Not to worry, there are many very smart ppl who may believe it. This comment below is a possible example.

;)
I wrote that it is written in a book in the times of the gaon by the guy that got punished, you're comparing such a source to golam stories?!?! ::)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: LeeW on September 11, 2012, 03:28:57 PM
IIRC, the story I wrote about the GR"A was written by the person who got punished himself, in a book that he wrote about his travels across Europe, IIRC he says many shvachim about the GR"A who he had the privilege of meeting, he spoke to the GR"A about the translation of "Ditzah" which IIRC Rashi says means simcha, that's when he made his remark, IIRC, the story is also in the avrohom ben avrohom book, and in the book "HaGaon". If any of the DDF professional researchers/Googlers can find the name of the book where this story is told, it would be greatly appreciated.

For all your IIRC, you have not one credible source for this blatant lashon hara against one of the most revered gedolim in history. Please don't waste everyone's time with your stories you heard as a kid, especially when they have no basis, and especially especially when they are terrible lashon hara.
And even if it is in a book, it is still blatant lashon hara which according to halacha can not be believed in any circumstances.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 03:31:15 PM
For all your IIRC, you have not one credible source for this blatant lashon hara against one of the most revered gedolim in history. Please don't waste everyone's time with your stories you heard as a kid, especially when they have no basis, and especially especially when they are terrible lashon hara.
And even if it is in a book, it is still blatant lashon hara which according to halacha can not be believed in any circumstances.
Excuse me, just because daas baal habayis hepech daas torah (BACH), doesn't make this lashon hara. My RY used to say over this story to show how far kavod chachamim fell over the generations. Your thinking that this is lashon hara just demonstrates the point, you don't understand how bad it is to say what he said about Rashi.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: LeeW on September 11, 2012, 03:39:51 PM
Excuse me, just because daas baal habayis hepech daas torah (BACH), doesn't make this lashon hara. My RY used to say over this story to show how far kavod chachamim fell over the generations.

Oh I see. So by perpetuating this totally baloney story about the Gr"a ZT"l, which would lead some who fall prey to this lashon hara and believe it to lose some respect for the Gr"a ZT"l, he is helping kavod chachamim? Seem like pretty warped  logic to me.
FWIW, I believe none of what you say. Not the story. And not the fact that your RY ever said this. 
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 03:45:12 PM
Oh I see. So by perpetuating this totally baloney story about the Gr"a ZT"l, which would lead some who fall prey to this lashon hara and believe it to lose some respect for the Gr"a ZT"l, he is helping kavod chachamim? Seem like pretty warped  logic to me.
FWIW, I believe none of what you say. Not the story. And not the fact that your RY ever said this.
That's the problem with forums, in real life, I've never had a person doubt for a second if I would lie. In real life I also wouldn't shmooze with people with such unintelligent comments like you either.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 03:46:39 PM
That's one of the problems with forums, in real life, I've never had a person doubt for a second if I would lie. In real life I also wouldn't shmooze with people with such unintelligent comments like you either.

 :D ;D

lol, good point. Another problem is that people (may be you too) answer back without the proper respect really due to the PP.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 11, 2012, 03:49:09 PM
k chill we get it you belive and you dont end of discussion your just going back and forth true or not true.but please stop verbally shredding each other...(true or not guarantee the Gra' would prefer you 2 get along  :o  :(
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
:D ;D

lol, good point. Another problem is that people (may be you too) answer back without the proper respect really due to the PP.
Man, gimme a break, he just accused me of blatantly lying and being malshin the Gr"a.  ;)
כותב החינוך דאין איסור אונאת דברים ''אם בא ישראל אחד והתחיל והרשיע לצער חבירו
עי' בחינוך מצוה של''ח (שלא להונות אחד מישראל בדברים) שכותב וז''ל, שלא נאמר לישראל דברים שיכאיבוהו ויצערוהו וכו', ואולם לפי הדומה, אין במשמע שאם בא ישראל אחד והתחיל והרשיע לצער חבירו בדברים הרעים שלא יענהו השומע, שאי אפשר להיות האדם כאבן שאין לה הופכים, ועוד שיהיה שתיקתו כמודה על החירופין, ובאמת לא תצוה התורה להיות האדם כאבן שותק למחרפיו כמו למברכיו וכו', ויש לנו ללמוד דבר זה, שמותר לנו לענות כסיל, לפי הדומה, מאשר התירה התורה הבא במחתרת להקדים ולהורגו, שאין ספק שלא נתחייב האדם לסבול הנזקין מיד חבירו, כי יש לו רשות להנצל מידו, וכמו כן מדברי פיהו אשר מלא מרמות ותוך, בכל דבר שיכול להנצל ממנו. ואולם יש כת בני אדם שעולה חסידותם כל כך שלא ירצו להכניס עצמם בהוראה זו להשיב חורפיהם דבר, פן יגבר עליהם הכעס ויתפשטו בענין יותר מדי, ועליהם אמרו זכרונם לברכה (שבת דף פ''ח: ) הנעלבין ואינם עולבין, שומעין חרפתן ואינם משיבין, עליהם הכתוב אומר (שופטים ה' - ל''א) ואוהביו כצאת השמש בגבורתו, עכ''ל.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 11, 2012, 03:53:51 PM
Again, I dont think neither you nor your RY make things up or lie, you're just a tiny na´ve, and please don't take it personally because I hate when you fire back personally...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 03:55:46 PM
Again, I dont think neither you nor your RY make things up or lie, you're just a tiny na´ve, and please don't take it personally because I hate when you fire back personally...
YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!!!  :) ;) :D ;D :P
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 03:58:41 PM
Again, I dont think neither you nor your RY make things up or lie, you're just a tiny na´ve, and please don't take it personally because I hate when you fire back personally...
YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!!!  :) ;) :D ;D :P

Cool, you guys have a funny sense of humor!! Happy to see you are friends. Are you brothers?

Man, gimme a break, he just accused me of blatantly lying and being malshin the Gr"a.  ;)

+1, lets calm down and not talk LH or about LH.

OK, sorry, I just meant in general. It applies to me, you and everyone else. Exactly the same principle that you said, just putting it on its head, the opposite perspective. Like the dichotomy of reights and responsibilities.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 04:01:55 PM
ואולם יש כת בני אדם שעולה חסידותם כל כך שלא ירצו להכניס עצמם בהוראה זו להשיב חורפיהם דבר, פן יגבר עליהם הכעס ויתפשטו בענין יותר מדי, ועליהם אמרו זכרונם לברכה (שבת דף פ''ח: ) הנעלבין ואינם עולבין, שומעין חרפתן ואינם משיבין, עליהם הכתוב אומר (שופטים ה' - ל''א) ואוהביו כצאת השמש בגבורתו, עכ''ל.

Beautiful quote! Thanks! Lets be Ohavei Hashem and Ohavem shel Hashem! K'Tzes Hashemesh bigvuraso!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 04:03:56 PM
I vote we delete this thread as it serves no purpose anymore and is really digressing fast
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 04:11:57 PM
Now, back to the OP, a guy called me from the Mir today so I asked him which Magid Shiur spoke about it. He told me who it was. He is definitely a very Chashuve Tzadik, Talmid Chacham and Mentsch.

I vote we delete this thread as it serves no purpose anymore and is really digressing fast
But then we can use recuva or rstudio and undelete it  :-\ :o
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 04:13:24 PM
Now, back to the OP, a guy called me from the Mir today so I asked him which Magid Shiur spoke about it. He told me who it was. He is definitely a very Chashuve Tzadik, Talmid Chacham and Mentsch.
But then we can use recuva or rstudio and undelete it  :-\ :o
Don't you think all that was to be said, was said already + some more
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 11, 2012, 04:36:04 PM
I vote we delete this thread as it serves no purpose anymore and is really digressing fast
How about just close it to new comments? Is that possible?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 04:57:16 PM
Don't you think all that was to be said, was said already + some more
???

this here? (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=19735.msg299610;topicseen#msg299610)

I did not see anyone answer this question. I guess I must be missing it somehow.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 11, 2012, 04:57:54 PM
How about just close it to new comments? Is that possible?

the title actually is a bit sensational...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 05:27:57 PM
For all your IIRC, you have not one credible source for this blatant lashon hara against one of the most revered gedolim in history. Please don't waste everyone's time with your stories you heard as a kid, especially when they have no basis, and especially especially when they are terrible lashon hara.
And even if it is in a book, it is still blatant lashon hara which according to halacha can not be believed in any circumstances.
Pleeaase, chill guys.  Among Chassidim I've heard (more than once) that there's an old rumor (;)) that the Gr"a was מקבל לה"ר about Chassidim which led to him signing the cherem against chasidus.   

#just sayin' :)

Please don't explode  ;D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 05:32:06 PM
Now, back to the OP, a guy called me from the Mir today so I asked him which Magid Shiur spoke about it. He told me who it was. He is definitely a very Chashuve Tzadik, Talmid Chacham and Mentsch.
But then we can use recuva or rstudio and undelete it  :-\ :o
Oooohhh!  נישט בלויז אַ מענטש, אַ צדיק אויך!!!  :D  :o
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 06:00:15 PM
#just sayin' :)
#justsayin

FTFY. :)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 06:28:41 PM
FTFY. :)
Ishtenem, זייט מוחל batchy, I'm no Tweeter.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 06:29:40 PM
Oysh, זייט מוחל batchy, I'm no Tweeter.
That's why I'm here to help. ;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 06:33:22 PM
That's why I'm here to help. ;)
Like you have in your programs "CVS ExtraCare"! ;)  Lol on your programs! :D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 06:46:30 PM
Like you have in your programs "CVS ExtraCare"! ;)  Lol on your programs! :D
Thanks. Was wondering if anyone ever noticed. :) So now I know one person did...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 06:49:13 PM
Thanks. Was wondering if anyone ever noticed. :) So now I know one person did...
You're competing with the guy who has "RavKav Platinum"?!!  ;D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 11, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
You're competing with the guy who has "RavKav Platinum"?!!  ;D
Not really. I listed Starbucks Green first. ;)

And Rav Kav Plat is fictitious. It just sounds cool. :D
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 11, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
Thanks. Was wondering if anyone ever noticed. :) So now I know one person did...
i did notice the cvs extra care i kinda was scratchin my head on it  ??? but figured when in doubt best keep mouth shut tight  ::)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 11, 2012, 10:31:07 PM
It get's worse:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E-WZdrmYXSE/UE8W5zRk_8I/AAAAAAAAFRw/pAGXb2MZQzE/s1600/iphone+minyan.jpg)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 11, 2012, 10:39:09 PM
Pritzas Geder depends which community you are part of
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 10:52:46 PM
This from reb chaim kanyevski who didn't know bet shemesh is in israel:)
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Ergel on September 11, 2012, 10:54:45 PM
This from reb chaim kanyevski who didn't know bet shemesh is in israel:)
Can't be, its mentioned in nach.

And just wanted to say I haven't been following this thread at all but I can't believe it is still going on
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 10:57:51 PM
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 11, 2012, 11:00:20 PM
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be

+1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 11, 2012, 11:23:59 PM
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be
I don't think this statement will help you out in the upcoming yom hadin.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 11:32:48 PM
by saying that Reb Chaim and his peers aren't familiar with the internet and such?? I'm not diminishing their holiness on the contrary I'm saying they are way above these things and are guided in their knowledge by ppl with agendas.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 11, 2012, 11:33:48 PM
and your response is completely irrelevant, you are neither agreeing or disagreeing with my statement
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 12, 2012, 03:09:09 AM
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be
+1

I have personal knowledge of a story of a certain Rav who tried going to R' Elyashiv zatzal with convincing evidence that Shabbos elevators (with a good hashgacha, of course) are kosher. He was prevented from getting in by the "powers-that-be", who told him pretty much straight out, that over their dead bodies was he going to change R' Elyashiv's opinion.

So whenever I hear that R' Elyashiv was against Shabbos elevators - or pas akum chips, or crocs on Yom Kippur, etc. - I unfortunately have to say that I dont necessarily believe it. Not that he didn't say it... Just that there is a high likelihood he was fed false info by people with agendas.

It's really a shame what these vicious people have done - and continue to do - to the reputation of our gedolim. :(
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 12, 2012, 03:40:39 AM
So whenever I hear that R' Elyashiv was against Shabbos elevators - or pas akum chips, or crocs on Yom Kippur, etc.

What's the crocs story? This is a new one to me.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 04:41:21 AM
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be
that's stupidity.   any city that's part of eretz yisroel, rav chaim is well familiar with. the man knows tnach better than you know your name.    if the state of israel decided to call a city by a new name that's not biblically accurate, then there's no reason why he should be familiar with it.     so no, your point doesn't stand.

in terms of the general agendas of those that surround the gedolim... ya, it is a problem, and taints everything that's supposedly said by the gedolim.     in terms of the above sign in particular, whether rav chaim said it or not, it seems pretty simple to me.  if you live in a makom where the chachamim  have assured it, as platinumguy pointed out, then you're definitely a poretz geder by having one, and all dinim of a poretz geder apply.       
the only chiddush in what he "said," was that you could daven with them; a kulah!           
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Chaikel on September 12, 2012, 05:58:57 AM
It get's worse:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E-WZdrmYXSE/UE8W5zRk_8I/AAAAAAAAFRw/pAGXb2MZQzE/s1600/iphone+minyan.jpg)
Being that the klal is that whatever is posted on the wall is 100% false, this is great news! Now we know iPhones are mutar

(v'horaya, the Tzlach must have been very ahead of his times if he was against ppl with iPhones)

Rumor is, the add was sponsored by Android. And Apples attorneys are taking objection to "V'domov"
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 12, 2012, 06:31:10 AM
the title actually is a bit sensational...

True, it is... but so is the original comment in the article that inspired this thread to begin with.

Being that the klal is that whatever is posted on the wall is 100% false, this is great news! Now we know iPhones are mutar

(v'horaya, the Tzlach must have been very ahead of his times if he was against ppl with iPhones)

Rumor is, the add was sponsored by Android. And Apples attorneys are taking objection to "V'domov"

ALOL! ;D

BTW, I'm not affected by those ads. I saw paper copies of them in Dushinsky, and further down the page it says "machzikei ha-iphone v'ha-Galaxy..." As I have an LG, looks like I'm okay. Phew!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 12, 2012, 08:42:54 AM
This from reb chaim kanyevski who didn't know bet shemesh is in israel:)

I don't know where you're from but your choice of words conveys a contempt and total lack of respect for Gedolim. You have no idea what you are talking about. RAV CHAIM KANIEVSKY SHLITA knows more about this world inreal time than you do, even with your galaxy. You have no clue how ashamed you should be of yourself.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 08:54:54 AM
do you believe that he's aware of what the internet is and he checked it out and understand its practical applications??? His advisors went in to him and explained to him that this is a tumana thing and is the worst thing In The world!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 12, 2012, 08:58:28 AM
First of all, I disagree. Second of all, that is stick inexcusable to speak about a Gadol like that. Kavod Hatorah!!

Are you a na nach?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 12, 2012, 09:10:45 AM
I really don't get you.
Why does that show disrespect to gedolim?
I mean, do you really believe a gadol knows what Google means without someone explaining him what it is? Do you think Rav Chaim reads TechCrunch every day and he's up-to-date with all technologies?
I'm pretty sure I can go in to him and nicely explain him the problem of YouTube because it has a percentage of Chazir fats on it and its not double-wrapped.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 09:17:54 AM
do you believe that he's aware of what the internet is and he checked it out and understand its practical applications??? His advisors went in to him and explained to him that this is a tumana thing and is the worst thing In The world!

I agree with you. In the last couple of years I started realizing that with many sects of Chassidim the Rebbe has nothing to say unfortunately.
And I don't mean with just "bigger" issues like iphones. Even on personal one on one issues.

I was actually speaking to someone a while back on a certain smaller sect of Chassidus where they had thrown boys out of their Yeshiva for listening to the radio. And they were slowly but surely headed to the wrong path. They exclaimed "How could the Rebbe allow this to happen in his own Yeshiva?" "I can't believe that's what he thinks should happen to these boys"
And honestly, I don't think he would have agreed with it at all. The Rebbe has to be one of the most loving people I have ever met.
Do you think he has any say? Unfortunately not. They may very well be great people (many are!)  but sometimes it doesn't feel like they have much power or that they are the ones running the show.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 09:18:00 AM
thank you!! Why do some ppl think that anything a person says is disrespectful to gedolim!
and btw I have seen some of the internal "vaad harrabanim" videos that has all the quotes from Reb Chaim kanievski with the pictures of him putting money into the pushkas etc if you would see how disrespectful they are to him! They basically put money in his hand and make him put money into pushkas for photo ops! You would understand what I'm saying about ppl with agendas pushing gedolim around!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 09:20:27 AM
thank you!! Why do some ppl think that anything a person says is disrespectful to gedolim!
and btw I have seen some of the internal "vaad harrabanim" videos that has all the quotes from Reb Chaim kanievski with the pictures of him putting money into the pushkas etc if you would see how disrespectful they are to him! They basically put money in his hand and make him put money into pushkas for photo ops! You would understand what I'm saying about ppl with agendas pushing gedolim around!

That's awful. But unfortunately not that hard to believe.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 09:21:08 AM
we are not being disrespectful to them ! There are countless stories with all chassidishe sects sjmiliar to that. There are stories with a few rebbes that asserred pizza without having a clue of what it is etc
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 10:11:11 AM
I'm sure Dasan V'Aviram had even better stuff to say about Moshe Rabeinu. Oh, and let's not forget how Moshe gave powerful offices to his family members (Aharon), he was so corrupt (Korach). Hizaher Begachalasan!!! Yeh! all the gedolim are so dumb, they trust people who are terrible, wow! they must really have no brains!! Oh! and BTW, I have so much respect for them. Oy lanu leyom hadin!!!!

Answer this 1 question:


 How is saying that Gedolim allow themselves to be controlled by bad people not being disrespectful to them?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 10:58:23 AM
#1 Chill - You aren't gonna be any holier with all these quotes this is a normal conversation.
#2 I didn't say bad ppl I said ppl with an agenda - Stop putting words into my mouth to try to make yourself more self righteous!!
#3 Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!

I answered your question now you answer mine. Do you honestly believes R' chaim kanyenvski know what the internet is? Do you think he knows its practical applications and hundreds of thousands of jews use it for their only source of income - or even getting sales and saving money!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 12, 2012, 11:05:13 AM
and btw I have seen some of the internal "vaad harrabanim" videos that has all the quotes from Reb Chaim kanievski with the pictures of him putting money into the pushkas etc if you would see how disrespectful they are to him! They basically put money in his hand and make him put money into pushkas for photo ops! You would understand what I'm saying about ppl with agendas pushing gedolim around!

Link, please? I would LOVE to see this. I have never been a fan of Kupat Ha'ir and Vaad Harabanim's marketing techniques. It would be nice to have some solid proof that I am right...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 12, 2012, 11:05:58 AM
@lamdan
 So you say the inner circle of a gadol or a rabbi don't have their own agenda???
I this what you're saying???
If yes, I don't have what to argue with you anymore. You're clueless. Period.
As I personally know the closest gabai of a well known, respectful rabbi who, literally, has a mass of followers, I can tell you, you're very very na´ve. Sorry again.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 11:10:15 AM
No one here as far as I have seen is talking against rabbanim we are saying that sometimes they have ppl in their inner circle with their own agenda and they have the gadols trust in matters he isn't that familiar with
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 01:47:23 PM
No one here as far as I have seen is talking against rabbanim we are saying that sometimes they have ppl in their inner circle with their own agenda and they have the gadols trust in matters he isn't that familiar with
your comment about rav chaim not even knowing where beit shemesh was (or some other city in israel), was degrading (and stupid, as i already mentioned).   

to say that none of the people advising the gedolim have agendas of their own is naive.

to say that all the people advising the gedolim are feeding them lies to further their own agendas is baseless (and probably comes from looking for an excuse to make ureself (not directed at anyone in particular) feel better about not adhering to the psakim of the gedolim).

in terms of the internet, you're arguing that he doesn't know it's practical applications for business etc etc but that's completely moot.  at this point i don't believe there are any gedolim saying you're not allowed to use internet for business. everyone knows that the world today is at a point where it's debilitating not be able to use the internet for business purposes.       noone needs an iphone or galaxy for business.       most people can get by just fine with the internet in their house/laptop.  those that can't, can get by with blackberry's.    the iphone/galaxy/"ukdomeh" (lol) are gadgets, and are there, for the most part, for entertainment purposes.       

arguing that the gedolim never went on the internet themselves is silly.  they've been told what's on it, and what's able to be accessed by it, and that's more than enough.    like i said, for the business applications noone is assuring it.  for it's other applications, they should be assuring it, who are we kidding.     
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 12, 2012, 01:48:12 PM
I really think this thread (as sensational as it is) has got to go.So lets end this conversation new conversation .....ok moving on hows the weather in "yehupitz"  :-X
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Dan on September 12, 2012, 01:50:33 PM
noone needs an iphone or galaxy for business..           
-1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 01:51:23 PM
-1
unless you're a blogger.   or possibly one or two other random things.                 or i can rephrase, %99 of the people that have iphones/galaxy don't need them for business (for anything more than they could have gotten out of a blackberry).
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 12, 2012, 01:55:13 PM
I really think this thread (as sensational as it is) has got to go.So lets end this conversation new conversation .....ok moving on hows the weather in "yehupitz"  :-X
Allow me to give you major props for your better English writing. It makes it a pleasure to read your posts.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:11:27 PM
#1 Chill - You aren't gonna be any holier with all these quotes this is a normal conversation.
#2 I didn't say bad ppl I said ppl with an agenda - Stop putting words into my mouth to try to make yourself more self righteous!!
#3 Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!

I answered your question now you answer mine. Do you honestly believes R' chaim kanyenvski know what the internet is? Do you think he knows its practical applications and hundreds of thousands of jews use it for their only source of income - or even getting sales and saving money!
You still haven't answered how saying e/t you're saying is not being unrespectful. Saying " Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!" is unrespectful, period.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
@lamdan
 So you say the inner circle of a gadol or a rabbi don't have their own agenda???
I this what you're saying???
If yes, I don't have what to argue with you anymore. You're clueless. Period.
As I personally know the closest gabai of a well known, respectful rabbi who, literally, has a mass of followers, I can tell you, you're very very na´ve. Sorry again.
I'm saying, don't say it and still claim you're being respectful.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 02:15:30 PM
is righting an issur better than wronging one?  and being unrespectful is better than... heh, not sure what to do with that one
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 02:20:23 PM
I'm saying, don't say it and still claim you're being respectful.

He MEANS no disrespect.

He is just stating things he knows to be true for himself.

Sorry you take it as disrespectful.

Everyone has their own views and opinions. There are many thay believe you are disrespecting great gedolim right now by being online and going against their views. 


Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:21:23 PM
Your lack of knowledge in specific areas doesnt make me disrespectful. It just makes you uninformed.
And i'm not against filters etc - I was from the early ppl working on filters way before citifield. I'm not making a blanket statement that every gadol has an advisor with an agenda, and you can;t make a blanket statement to the contrary either. I still don't understand why you are all up in arms about this as if I'm making fun or belitteling gedolim - some ppl tend to get overexcited as if they are big kanoim!
and the r' chaim kanyevski with bet shemesh was used to make a point not that it happened, I'm sure hes fully aware of every city in israel
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 12, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
Allow me to give you major props for your better English writing. It makes it a pleasure to read your posts.
I wondered if any one noticed a difference from my original posts (beginning of week)to my more recent posts with proper full words..
thanks for noticing  ::)   ;D   
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
He MEANS no disrespect.

He is just stating things he knows to be true for himself.

Sorry you take it as disrespectful.

Everyone has their own views and opinions. There are many thay believe you are disrespecting great gedolim right now by being online and going against their views.

+1000
according to rav wosner and others you shouldnt be here answering me. Oh wait didn't they go to him afterwards to try to change his mind and get a more lenient psak!! Isn't that disrespectful??
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:25:12 PM
Your lack of knowledge in specific areas doesnt make me disrespectful. It just makes you uninformed.
And i'm not against filters etc - I was from the early ppl working on filters way before citifield. I'm not making a blanket statement that every gadol has an advisor with an agenda, and you can;t make a blanket statement to the contrary either. I still don't understand why you are all up in arms about this as if I'm making fun or belitteling gedolim - some ppl tend to get overexcited as if they are big kanoim!
and the r' chaim kanyevski with bet shemesh was used to make a point not that it happened, I'm sure hes fully aware of every city in israel
You still can't answer the big question. Write a reply starting with these words: It's not disrespectful to say that a gadol allows people to fool him because...... Till you do you are a joke.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 02:27:33 PM
and the r' chaim kanyevski with bet shemesh was used to make a point not that it happened
so now you're making up degrading stories that you know never actually happened?   and that's supposed to prove a point?    lmao       
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:28:09 PM
Your saying that a gadol would "know" that his advisor is telling him thigs about technology even though he knows nothing about it?????

Your saying that gedolim are never fooled???? Seriously???? How naive are you?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 12, 2012, 02:28:10 PM
NaivetÚ is hard to overcome, even with explanation.
I don't think he'll ever understand.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 02:33:22 PM
NaivetÚ is hard to overcome, even with explanation.
I don't think he'll ever understand.
NaivetÚ, hmmm, fancy word, is that like taking the words of a citi csr at face value?    ;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:33:45 PM
so now you're making up degrading stories that you know never actually happened?   and that's supposed to prove a point?    lmao     
My point isn't degrading!!! When I say that a gadol is on a higher level as doesn't always know about these mundane matters thats degrading? Whats about all the stories about gedolim who were so oblivious and bumped into trees etc is that degrading too?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 02:34:55 PM
Your lack of knowledge in specific areas doesnt make me disrespectful. It just makes you uninformed.
And i'm not against filters etc - I was from the early ppl working on filters way before citifield. I'm not making a blanket statement that every gadol has an advisor with an agenda, and you can;t make a blanket statement to the contrary either. I still don't understand why you are all up in arms about this as if I'm making fun or belitteling gedolim - some ppl tend to get overexcited as if they are big kanoim!
and the r' chaim kanyevski with bet shemesh was used to make a point not that it happened, I'm sure hes fully aware of every city in israel


I think there are many people in our societies who are raised to be taught that Gedolim are "always right, perfect, the smartest etc etc"  and it takes growing up and being aware of things until you realize that not everything is 100% like that.


In fact it's just a general way children grow up. The same way that you wake up one day and realize your parents aren't always right or perfect or making the smartest decisions.


I think when we speak like this it makes Rabbeim/Rebbes more human in our minds. And that throws people off from this idea that's in their head.

I think many people would automatically read some of the above posts and their first instinct would be "Wow, such chutzpah, such lies"

It's just a sign of maturity and awareness when you start to realize that things aren't so black and white.

And if any of the above posts sound disrespectful I can understand why someone may think that.
You can only take the posters word that they mean no disrespect and that they are sharing their thoughts and views (even if it may SEEM disrespectful to you)








Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:35:31 PM
Your saying that a gadol would "know" that his advisor is telling him thigs about technology even though he knows nothing about it?????

Your saying that gedolim are never fooled???? Seriously???? How naive are you?
I'm saying it's disrespectful to say you can't trusr anything, because they always are. BTW, you keep running in circles, answer the  question.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:36:41 PM

I think there are many people in our societies who are raised to be taught that Gedolim are "always right, perfect, the smartest etc etc"  and it takes growing up and being aware of things until you realize that not everything is 100% like that.


In fact it's just a general way children grow up. The same way that you wake up one day and realize your parents aren't always right or perfect or making the smartest decisions.


I think when we speak like this it makes Rabbeim/Rebbes more human in our minds. And that throws people off from this idea that's in their head.

I think many people would automatically read some of the above posts and their first instinct would be "Wow, such chutzpah, such lies"

It's just a sign of maturity and awareness when you start to realize that things aren't so black and white.

And if any of the above posts sound disrespectful I can understand why someone may think that.
You can only take the posters word that they mean no disrespect and that they are sharing their thoughts and views (even if it may SEEM disrespectful to you)
Very well said!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 02:37:32 PM
You still can't answer the big question. Write a reply starting with these words: It's not disrespectful to say that a gadol allows people to fool him because...... Till you do you are a joke.

Is it disrespectful to say when a Rebbe steals from the government and gets thrown in Jail?

It's just the truth.

The same way it may be true that not every Rebbe gets to make the choices he wants.  It's just sad fact. And if you want to argue it's not a fact so then it's a sad thought that I believe.

It's disrespectful to the rebbe that it's like that. That's the truth.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
My point isn't degrading!!! When I say that a gadol is on a higher level as doesn't always know about these mundane matters thats degrading? Whats about all the stories about gedolim who were so oblivious and bumped into trees etc is that degrading too?
your logic is twisted, you said they made a PSAK about something they're clueless about. Stop defending yourself, just admit you have the same hashkafos as all the poshei yisrael through out the generations. The age old cry "Mai ahanu lan rabanan".
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 02:38:27 PM
I'm saying it's disrespectful to say you can't trusr anything, because they always are. BTW, you keep running in circles, answer the  question.

NO ONE said you can't trust anything a Rebbe/Rav says because they are always fooled. NO ONE.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
My point isn't degrading!!! When I say that a gadol is on a higher level as doesn't always know about these mundane matters thats degrading? Whats about all the stories about gedolim who were so oblivious and bumped into trees etc is that degrading too?
you're ignorance here speaks volumes.   there are no stories about gedolim being so oblivious they walk into trees.  those are stories about illuyim. and, yes, those stories are somewhat degrading as well; people don't say them about gedolim.       

saying he's on a higher level and doesn't know the internet from a personal basis is not degrading at all.   saying he's such a poor judge of character that he completely surrounds himself with conniving liars who are only after their own agenda, and that he's so gullible that he eats up everything they feed him without using his own brain to sift through the information, a brain which has spent more time delving into G-ds wisdom and creation then %99.9999 of the frum world, ya, that comes across is degrading.                obviously it's possible for a gadol to be fooled, they're people too, but don't for a second think they don't use their heads (and siyata dishmaya) for mundane matter when it comes to making a psak. 

the real problem is that you never even know what psak they said, because most of the time the stuff that they supposedly said is completely fabricated, or taken out of context.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:44:45 PM
@lamdan I can just see you during the time of the gra running around putting chassidim in cherem etc! all the full-of-hot-air kanous, they always had ppl like that in all the centuries. ppl like that were the ones who heated up every machlokas as if they are only talking lshem shomayim, all the while busy quoting chazals but at the end of the day......
There were always ppl standing next to rabonim sometimes helping and sometimes the opposite - many big machlokes that happened in klal yisroel throughout time was becasue of this.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sky121 on September 12, 2012, 02:44:58 PM
   saying he's such a poor judge of character that he completely surrounds himself with conniving liars who are only after their own agenda, and that he's so gullible that he eats up everything they feed him without using his own brain to sift through the information, a brain which has spent more time delving into G-ds wisdom and creation then %99.9999 of the frum world, ya, that comes across is degrading.               



No one said that either.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:46:31 PM
you're ignorance here speaks volumes.   there are no stories about gedolim being so oblivious they walk into trees.  those are stories about illuyim. and, yes, those stories are somewhat degrading as well; people don't say them about gedolim.       

saying he's on a higher level and doesn't know the internet from a personal basis is not degrading at all.   saying he's such a poor judge of character that he completely surrounds himself with conniving liars who are only after their own agenda, and that he's so gullible that he eats up everything they feed him without using his own brain to sift through the information, a brain which has spent more time delving into G-ds wisdom and creation then %99.9999 of the frum world, ya, that comes across is degrading.                obviously it's possible for a gadol to be fooled, they're people too, but don't for a second think they don't use their heads (and siyata dishmaya) for mundane matter when it comes to making a psak.
@Yare, couldn't have made the point any better. I see you have very good communication skills, if you can't convince these clowns, I for sure can't.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:47:31 PM
How many gedolim were behing shabtzei tzvi?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 02:48:57 PM
@lamdan I can just see you during the time of the gra running around putting chassidim in cherem etc! all the full-of-hot-air kanous, they always had ppl like that in all the centuries. ppl like that were the ones who heated up every machlokas as if they are only talking lshem shomayim, all the while busy quoting chazals but at the end of the day......
There were always ppl standing next to rabonim sometimes helping and sometimes the opposite - many big machlokes that happened in klal yisroel throughout time was becasue of this.
I could just see you joining the Romans and burning the Bais Hamikdash, I won the argument, I said I can just see you doing s/t worse than you said about me. My Totty's stronger than your Totty.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:49:19 PM
you're ignorance here speaks volumes.   there are no stories about gedolim being so oblivious they walk into trees.  those are stories about illuyim. and, yes, those stories are somewhat degrading as well; people don't say them about gedolim.       
Every book about the litvishe roshai yeshivos and gedolim have these stoiries in them! If they write the proudly maybe you aren't understanding thinmgs correctly or maybe your "degrading" compass is a little overly sensitive on someone elses chsehbon
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 02:50:07 PM
I could just see you joining the Romans and burning the Bais Hamikdash, I won the argument, I said I can just see you doing s/t worse than you said about me. My Totty's stronger than your Totty.
Thats just immature
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: LeeW on September 12, 2012, 02:50:26 PM
you're ignorance here speaks volumes.   there are no stories about gedolim being so oblivious they walk into trees.  those are stories about illuyim. and, yes, those stories are somewhat degrading as well; people don't say them about gedolim.       

saying he's on a higher level and doesn't know the internet from a personal basis is not degrading at all.   saying he's such a poor judge of character that he completely surrounds himself with conniving liars who are only after their own agenda, and that he's so gullible that he eats up everything they feed him without using his own brain to sift through the information, a brain which has spent more time delving into G-ds wisdom and creation then %99.9999 of the frum world, ya, that comes across is degrading.                obviously it's possible for a gadol to be fooled, they're people too, but don't for a second think they don't use their heads (and siyata dishmaya) for mundane matter when it comes to making a psak. 

@yare @ lamdan This is insane. Please take your straw man arguments and leave. No one in this entire thread made any comment like the one you said. You both are just trolling here.

All that was said, by some people on this thread, was that when encountering items that they have no knowledge about, gedolim tend to turn to those that are near them for clarification. The same thing any one of us would do.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 02:58:58 PM
All that was said, by some people on this thread, was that when encountering items that they have no knowledge about, gedolim tend to turn to those that are near them for clarification. The same thing any one of us would do.
i'm not sure if you're having reading issues or comprehension ones, but that's not what's been said.   
@lamdan I can just see you during the time of the gra running around putting chassidim in cherem etc! all the full-of-hot-air kanous, they always had ppl like that in all the centuries. ppl like that were the ones who heated up every machlokas as if they are only talking lshem shomayim, all the while busy quoting chazals but at the end of the day......
it was actually the gra himself who put them in cherem.  so now rav chaim isn't enough for you, you're moving on to the gaon?  really?  lol     
How many gedolim were behing shabtzei tzvi?
yes, that was a calamity.  and therefore one should no longer listen to the gedolim?  ???  great argument
Every book about the litvishe roshai yeshivos and gedolim have these stoiries in them!
i'm unaware of any such books.  though, to be honest, i spend my free time on more entertaining subjects.     but, i'm listening, tell me a few....
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 03:00:39 PM
I never said stop listening to gedoilim, ppl who like arguing always hear what they want to hear, I merley said that their inner circle soimetimes have their own agenda and they rely on them for critical matters that they are unfamiliar with
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
Thats just immature
my point was to bring out how immature your post was.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 12, 2012, 03:02:55 PM
All that was said, by some people on this thread, was that when encountering items that they have no knowledge about, gedolim tend to turn to those that are near them for clarification. The same thing any one of us would do.
+1

Similar to what the Rabannim in the gemara did when they needed to, whether it was astrology, or weird creatures that they needed to pasken on.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 03:04:11 PM
I was actually bringing out a point.
sorry guys I'm done this conversation is pointless - logic will never win against blind stubborness
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 12, 2012, 03:05:20 PM
I was actually bringing out a point.
sorry guys I'm done this conversation is pointless - logic will never win against blind stubborness
+1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 12, 2012, 03:07:14 PM
I was actually bringing out a point.
sorry guys I'm done this conversation is pointless - logic will never win against blind stubborness

+1

They agreed!!

I think this is in order
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: LeeW on September 12, 2012, 03:25:11 PM
i'm not sure if you're having reading issues or comprehension ones, but that's not what's been said.   

Lol, typical troll response. 1- You refuse to show where any one made this wild claim that gedolim are poor judges of charcter etc., other than you. Instead of doing that, you attack my response. Like I said, pretty typical trolling behavior and I'm surprised there is no rule about that sort of stuff here. And just to clear, here is the original comment  "Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!" Not at all what you claim, is it troll?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Drago on September 12, 2012, 03:40:29 PM
Lol, typical troll response. 1- You refuse to show where any one made this wild claim that gedolim are poor judges of charcter etc., other than you. Instead of doing that, you attack my response. Like I said, pretty typical trolling behavior and I'm surprised there is no rule about that sort of stuff here. And just to clear, here is the original comment  "Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!" Not at all what you claim, is it troll?


Let's lay off of the name-calling, despite disagreements.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 12, 2012, 03:47:00 PM
So who murdered Rav Elysahiv???....
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: DH Data Recovery on September 12, 2012, 03:49:30 PM
So who murdered Rav Elysahiv???....
+100 I actually Laughed
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 12, 2012, 03:52:09 PM
+100 I actually Laughed
+1. ALOL...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 12, 2012, 04:56:22 PM
Lol, typical troll response. 1- You refuse to show where any one made this wild claim that gedolim are poor judges of charcter etc., other than you. Instead of doing that, you attack my response. Like I said, pretty typical trolling behavior and I'm surprised there is no rule about that sort of stuff here. And just to clear, here is the original comment  "Every gadol has a inner circle that advises him - and if someone he trusts will come over to him and tell him about this new thing that is pure tumah etc he will right an issur against it because thats what he believes!" Not at all what you claim, is it troll?

:)   you're a cutie.     
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 13, 2012, 12:37:58 AM
So who murdered Rav Elysahiv???....
LOL!
You sometimes do get funny!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 13, 2012, 12:48:43 AM
there are no stories about gedolim being so oblivious they walk into trees.  those are stories about illuyim. and, yes, those stories are somewhat degrading as well; people don't say them about gedolim.       
Perhaps one persons "Gadol" is for another just an "illuy"?  Perhaps? 
Well, I'll tell you.  For sure.

Guys like @lamdan and others here (2 others come to mind, they know who they are very well) will always just pull out the "You'll burn in gehenom", "You're playing with fire" or "you better do teshuva before yom hadin" and worse -scare tactics.  That may work in Lakewood or maybe still in Cheder, not here.
Instead of sticking to inteligent conversation, they resort to these old shtet'l techniques (oddly enough, strikingly similar to the type of wording pashkevil-writers are expert at).
Their intolerance is sickening.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 13, 2012, 02:13:06 AM
Perhaps one persons "Gadol" is for another just an "illuy"?  Perhaps? 
Well, I'll tell you.  For sure.

Guys like @lamdan and others here (2 others come to mind, they know who they are very well) will always just pull out the "You'll burn in gehenom", "You're playing with fire" or "you better do teshuva before yom hadin" and worse -scare tactics.  That may work in Lakewood or maybe still in Cheder, not here.
Instead of sticking to inteligent conversation, they resort to these old shtet'l techniques (oddly enough, strikingly similar to the type of wording pashkevil-writers are expert at).
Their intolerance is sickening.

+1
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 13, 2012, 08:08:25 AM
This is how it started

This from reb chaim kanyevski who didn't know bet shemesh is in israel:)
then it was with one of the other israeli cities, my point stands. Many of todays gedolim are unfortunately puppets when it comes to most of the modern issues they don't know anything about no matter how holy they are and how brilliant they may be

As Yare and Lamdan pointed out, the Rav made a PSAK based on something that you claim he is clueless about. Personally, I don't believe signs posted on walls, but you say he made such a psak and was wrong. Do you think that is respectful or disrespectful?

You write r' or rav ... in lowercase. If I write about your Rebbe the same way you are doing here, would you feel I am being disrespectful?

Quote
r' menachem mendel shniyorson was fooled into believing cigarettes were dangerous because he was gullible and relied on info that his neighbors great aunt told him. He told his follower to throw out his stash that he was planning on selling even though it was worth over $4000 at the time (in todays value $1.3 million). he was brilliant and holy but unfortunately clueless about modern issues

How does that look?  :o :o :o
Title: Re: trolls
Post by: shmuelb on September 13, 2012, 08:15:55 AM
@yare @ lamdan This is insane...  You both are just trolling here.

Funny! Welcome to the forums, longtime lurker. How is the herring? j/k but it is funny that you are calling them trolls. I think you mean to say that here they are acting like trolls.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 13, 2012, 08:20:52 AM
Perhaps one persons "Gadol" is for another just an "illuy"?  Perhaps? 
Well, I'll tell you.  For sure.

Guys like @lamdan and others here (2 others come to mind, they know who they are very well) will always just pull out the "You'll burn in gehenom", "You're playing with fire" or "you better do teshuva before yom hadin" and worse -scare tactics.  That may work in Lakewood or maybe still in Cheder, not here.
Instead of sticking to inteligent conversation, they resort to these old shtet'l techniques (oddly enough, strikingly similar to the type of wording pashkevil-writers are expert at).
Their intolerance is sickening.
Well said!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: yare on September 13, 2012, 08:23:39 AM
Perhaps one persons "Gadol" is for another just an "illuy"?  Perhaps? 
Well, I'll tell you.  For sure.
as i told data guy, i'm unaware of any such stories said proudly about gedolim, but since you seem to know about them "for sure," i'd love to be educated...
Guys like @lamdan and others here (2 others come to mind, they know who they are very well) will always just pull out the "You'll burn in gehenom", "You're playing with fire" or "you better do teshuva before yom hadin" and worse -scare tactics.  That may work in Lakewood or maybe still in Cheder, not here.
Instead of sticking to inteligent conversation, they resort to these old shtet'l techniques (oddly enough, strikingly similar to the type of wording pashkevil-writers are expert at).
Their intolerance is sickening.
lol    you should learn to laugh people like that off, instead of taking it so personally; especially on an open forum where every yokel is invited (notice our friend lee).  it will help your blood pressure.                           

in terms of the actual argument at hand, it seems like the only thing they were able to respond to was the propaganda, and not to any of the intelligent discourse.   
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: elikay on September 13, 2012, 09:55:38 AM
I wondered if any one noticed a difference from my original posts (beginning of week)to my more recent posts with proper full words..
thanks for noticing  ::)   ;D
Well, you have become unnoticeable!
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 13, 2012, 01:09:09 PM

Their intolerance is sickening.
I will never tolerate Bizuy Chachamim. Never.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 13, 2012, 01:18:01 PM
Well, you have become unnoticeable!
in a good way or ??  ;)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 13, 2012, 04:00:42 PM
as i told data guy, i'm unaware of any such stories said proudly about gedolim, but since you seem to know about them "for sure," i'd love to be educated...lol   
You didn't get the point.  I have never heard of such a story, was just commenting on what was said that implying that its one thing to say something like that on an Iluy and another thing to say on a "Gadol".  Simple.

you should learn to laugh people like that off, instead of taking it so personally; especially on an open forum where every yokel is invited (notice our friend lee).  it will help your blood pressure.                           
Nothing on DDF is taken personal (at least by me), and someone who takes what is said on a forum personal (unless they are openly the subject matter) imho doesn't belong on an internet forum.  Blood pressure is another story ;)
For many people, reading the news can make their blood boil, but I still don't think they take it personal...
in terms of the actual argument at hand, it seems like the only thing they were able to respond to was the propaganda, and not to any of the intelligent discourse.   
That's exactly what I'm saying. 
Now he's pulling the "bizuy chachomim" tactic.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 13, 2012, 04:06:39 PM
I will never tolerate Bizuy Chachamim. Never.
Anyone slightly questioning / trying to have a rational discussion Re. the words of s/o you may consider a "gadol" =bizuy.
You might want to consider writing for the [toilet]paper known as Yated Ne'eman (Hebrew version one of course).
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 13, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
I will never tolerate Bizuy Chachamim. Never.

Fair warning: if you keep this up, I'm gonna pull a Cbs on you...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 13, 2012, 10:19:35 PM
Fair warning: if you keep this up, I'm gonna pull a Cbs on you...
what does a Cbs mean?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 13, 2012, 11:06:31 PM
Cranky Boy Sleeves
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Galitzyaner on September 14, 2012, 04:05:23 AM
קוקו (http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=285081)
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 14, 2012, 01:25:53 PM
Ga"letz"yaner.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 14, 2012, 01:38:24 PM
Lame Dan
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: Lamdan on September 14, 2012, 01:51:09 PM
Lame Dan
Dan is not lame.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 14, 2012, 02:31:29 PM
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 15, 2012, 04:09:02 PM
What's with all the name-calling?
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: shmuelb on September 15, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
In honor of Rosh Hashan, let's close this thread and someone should tart a new one... tichle shana vekil'loseha...
Title: Re: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 15, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
In honor of Rosh Hashan, let's close this thread and someone should tart a new one... tichle shana vekil'loseha...
אמן כי''ר
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: sal2011 on September 15, 2012, 10:20:59 PM
In honor of Rosh Hashan, let's close this thread and someone should tart a new one... tichle shana vekil'loseha...
        +1000000000000000000000000
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: L'Chaim on September 16, 2012, 02:12:51 AM
This is the kind of thread that I just clicked on in order to get it off my unread list...
Title: Re: Was Rav Elyashiv murdered??!
Post by: meshugener on September 16, 2012, 05:27:08 AM
Yoish... We all miss you!