DansDeals.com Forums

DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: Aeajda1 on October 29, 2012, 05:01:53 PM

Title: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 29, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
Due to the hurricane, my parents flight to Israel for Monday was cancelled. After 3 hours on hold, a customer service asked if she had a regular ticket or a "glitch" ticket. After asking what the difference was, he said that i should just answer him. When saying it was a glitch ticket, he immediately said sorry he couldn't help and could get them on a flight in a week.

In addition, until today, El Al was willing to refund tickets due to the hurricane but NOT the 75 dollar upgrade to a direct flight. After noticing the rule that ALL funds must be refunded if the airline itself cancels, they offered to do so.

El Al's customer service and despicable back pedaling after this glitch, especially using it to their advantage in a natural disaster, is sickening. Beware....
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 29, 2012, 05:05:46 PM
If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.

Just be grateful they offered to rebook at all, AFAIK they don't have to (just refund).
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 29, 2012, 05:30:46 PM
I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.
+1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: dealer on October 29, 2012, 05:33:46 PM
If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.

Just be grateful they offered to rebook at all, AFAIK they don't have to (just refund).
-1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 29, 2012, 06:54:47 PM
-100
ftfy
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on October 29, 2012, 07:20:41 PM
If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.

Just be grateful they offered to rebook at all, AFAIK they don't have to (just refund).
Another guy who didn't get on the deal....
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: whacked1 on October 29, 2012, 07:23:13 PM
Another guy who didn't get on the deal....
+1
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 29, 2012, 07:31:26 PM
Another guy who didn't get on the deal....
-1, I don't agree with his first or third sentence, but wouldn't you agree with his second?
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 29, 2012, 07:31:56 PM
-1, I don't agree with his first or third sentence, but wouldn't you agree with his second?
+1
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on October 29, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
-1, I don't agree with his first or third sentence, but wouldn't you agree with his second?
Not really, because the whole point of honoring them was to get customers.
Title: Re: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 29, 2012, 07:44:22 PM
Not really, because the whole point of honoring them was to get customers.
But in a Queston of priority, wouldn't you prioritize full paying customers
Title: Re: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on October 29, 2012, 07:52:50 PM
But in a Queston of priority, wouldn't you prioritize full paying customers
not when it comes to customer service.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 29, 2012, 08:13:34 PM
But in a Queston of priority, wouldn't you prioritize full paying customers
and where do you draw the line?  paying customers before award tickets? higher fare buckets before the lower?   pretty ridiculous.    this isn't an upgrade priority list, it's rescheduling the actual flight you paid for.  every customer has the same rights to be rescheduled.       the second they decided to honor the tickets, there's no room for them to differentiate b/w those customers and any others.   
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Dan on October 29, 2012, 08:16:54 PM
and where do you draw the line?  paying customers before award tickets? higher fare buckets before the lower?   pretty ridiculous.    this isn't an upgrade priority list, it's rescheduling the actual flight you paid for.  every customer has the same rights to be rescheduled.       the second they decided to honor the tickets, there's no room for them to differentiate b/w those customers and any others.   
+1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: WhyAich on October 29, 2012, 08:21:26 PM
and where do you draw the line?  paying customers before award tickets? higher fare buckets before the lower?   pretty ridiculous.    this isn't an upgrade priority list, it's rescheduling the actual flight you paid for.  every customer has the same rights to be rescheduled.       the second they decided to honor the tickets, there's no room for them to differentiate b/w those customers and any others.
+1, the only reason they get away with this is because they are a Jewish company. Either honor them or don't. Do not classify them as second class.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on October 29, 2012, 08:28:29 PM
+1, the only reason they get away with this is because they are a Israeli  company. Either honor them or don't. Do not classify them as second class.
FTFY
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 29, 2012, 08:38:25 PM
and where do you draw the line?  paying customers before award tickets? higher fare buckets before the lower?   pretty ridiculous.    this isn't an upgrade priority list, it's rescheduling the actual flight you paid for. every customer has the same rights to be rescheduled.       the second they decided to honor the tickets, there's no room for them to differentiate b/w those customers and any others.

Incorrect. SBY list is sorted by status and fare class, as you suggested.

The law, to the best of my knowledge, allows them to refuse to rebook altogether and simply refund the 'payments'.

Everything they do beyond that is more than they're required to do.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 08:41:39 PM
If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

Why because it's a Jewish company? what if Alitalia had a mistake would you also have a problem with people taking advantage? Maybe Elal takes advantage of people all year round and charge a ridiculous price for tickets to Israel! DOn't they control how many airlines/flights could fly to Israel by minimizing the direct flights they raise the prices!
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 29, 2012, 08:48:04 PM
Why because it's a Jewish company? what if Alitalia had a mistake would you also have a problem with people taking advantage?
Elal is no more Jewish than Alitalia. Both have a certain percentage of Jewish shareholders (well, AZ per se is privately held so I'm not sure).

Either way, I've taken advantage of airlines a lot more than you'd think, but still, if anything in the entire story is 'despicable', I'd pick the guy forcing someone to give him something at loss.

Maybe Elal takes advantage of people all year round and charge a ridiculous price for tickets to Israel!
Have you heard of the market?

Either way, they don't make money, so they're not charging all that crazy much.
DOn't they control how many airlines/flights could fly to Israel by minimizing the direct flights they raise the prices!

No, they don't. Israel has an open skies agreement with both Europe and Israel. You're welcome to start flying there.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 29, 2012, 08:49:56 PM
Another guy who didn't get on the deal....
BS. I saw this deal posted on DDF when the thread only had the OP and one other post. The fact is I did not, and still do not have any use for it. I wouldn't buy it if it was available right now.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 09:09:15 PM
Elal is no more Jewish than Alitalia. Both have a certain percentage of Jewish shareholders (well, AZ per se is privately held so I'm not sure).

Either way, I've taken advantage of airlines a lot more than you'd think, but still, if anything in the entire story is 'despicable', I'd pick the guy forcing someone to give him something at loss.
Have you heard of the market?
If you've taken advantage dont attack others its not all that pleasant.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 09:13:01 PM
Either way, they don't make money, so they're not charging all that crazy much.
I didn''t audit them, but I'd imagine that if a company like that is not making money it doesn't mean much all it means is that the big shots are making  nice salaries  and they're reporting losses.
Start flying there? It's totally irrelevant, but I've lived in Israel for 9 years.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: moish on October 29, 2012, 09:23:12 PM

Start flying there? It's totally irrelevant, but I've lived in Israel for 9 years.
i think he meant to say that elal doesnt control it and anyone can fly including you if u opened an airline
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 09:30:30 PM
i think he meant to say that elal doesnt control it and anyone can fly including you if u opened an airline
That not true they've been controlling it for a while now only this year did they sign an open sky agreement and it's not fully implemented  http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-07/31/c_131751211.htm
"and is expected to cover 80 percent of the costs when open skies is fully implemented in the summer of 2017"
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: moish on October 29, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
That not true they've been controlling it for a while now only this year did they sign an open sky agreement and it's not fully implemented  http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-07/31/c_131751211.htm
"and is expected to cover 80 percent of the costs when open skies is fully implemented in the summer of 2017"
im not stating an opinion, i was merely saying you misunderstood him
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 09:43:43 PM
im not stating an opinion, i was merely saying you misunderstood him
got it. I was just continuing the conversation.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: moish on October 29, 2012, 09:46:59 PM
got it. I was just continuing the conversation.
in that case, how can elal control which airlines can fly to tlv?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 29, 2012, 09:53:03 PM
If you've taken advantage dont attack others its not all that pleasant.
My apologies I didn't mean to attack anybody.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 29, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
in that case, how can elal control which airlines can fly to tlv?
I don't think it's Elal it's the Israeli government protecting Elal's interests, but they realized that it may be beneficial to add more flights/airlines, but they're still somewhat limited. 
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 30, 2012, 07:47:40 AM
Incorrect. SBY list is sorted by status and fare class, as you suggested.
sby?  who's talking about sby?  maybe you missed the op... we're talking about rescheduling onto other flights that have open seats due to the hurricane.  standby procedures are irrelevant.   
The law, to the best of my knowledge, allows them to refuse to rebook altogether and simply refund the 'payments'.

Everything they do beyond that is more than they're required to do.
incorrect.   it's actually against Israeli law. see section 6, a, 2
 http://www.elal.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/9C7640D3-063B-4A52-9F49-A2A3AFC6951B/0/AviationServicesLawENG.pdf

so it is absolutely what they're required to do.   and it says nothing in there about rescheduling cancelled tickets based on status.   
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 30, 2012, 10:28:33 AM
Let's consider the following scenario. You have six flights canceled and 1500 passengers need to be rescheduled and you only have 700 empty seats the rest of the week. Doesn't it make sense to rebook your full paying passengers this week and the people who got in on a mistake fare next week? (I'm not saying theyshouldn't be cordial and if there are empty seats they should mess you over but just a question of priority)
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 30, 2012, 10:51:10 AM
sby?  who's talking about sby?  maybe you missed the op... we're talking about rescheduling onto other flights that have open seats due to the hurricane.  standby procedures are irrelevant.   
I was refuting
this isn't an upgrade priority list, it's rescheduling the actual flight you paid for.  every customer has the same rights to be rescheduled.   

Which isn't the way the airline industry works. When there limited space on a flight, there is a priority list of who gets the seats, as evidenced by SBY lists. If LY would book 3000 pax on the SBY list of every flight this week, then clear in apporpiate order, you'd be happy? Instead they just took those at the end of the list & moved them to later flights. Ensuring their best customers are taken care of first.

What you quote Israeli law does seem to be true however there is no time provision & they can rebook whenever they want.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 30, 2012, 03:04:17 PM
Since I posted this and have read all the responses, I'd weigh in simply as follows:

If you come out with a press release, as the VP of Customer Service did, stating he's happy to accomodate EVERYONE and is glad people can reconnect with loved ones, etc., then follow it. To separate "classes" in this unique instance is ridiculous. It's not as though this was "discounted fare".. it was a mistake on a full priced fare. As such, it has the same class associated with it as a full priced fare. The customer service rep had no clue but asked if it was a "glitch ticket" (which is a disgusting question to ask a customer and way to presumptive) or a regular ticket.

Oh yea, and what I failed to add was that my folks were headed in for a simcha. When this was conveyed, the same person said "yea sure, everyone says that." El Al sucks, plain and simple. Jewish company or not, you simply DO NOT take advantage of customers that way, regardless of what they did or didn't pay.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 30, 2012, 03:36:59 PM
I was refuting
yes, but the wrong thing ;)
If LY would book 3000 pax on the SBY list of every flight this week, then clear in apporpiate order, you'd be happy? Instead they just took those at the end of the list & moved them to later flights. Ensuring their best customers are taken care of first.
if they're actually separating by fare buckets, that's one thing.   if they're separating based on "glitch," that's something else.   the rep didn't ask what fare bucket they were booked into, they're not rebooking based on fare buckets, he asked if it was the glitch fare.    after it's honored they're in a fare bucket just like everyone else, doesn't matter what they actually paid.    it's also no way indicative of their "best customers."   it's very possible many of their "best customers" are flying on these tickets as well.

on a somewhat side note, it's really ridiculous how this is still being touted as a massive mistake fare/glitch.   not a month after the "glitch," delta on a regular sale had better prices going from mia-tlv than ly did with all the hype. what a joke.   
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 30, 2012, 03:41:19 PM

on a somewhat side note, it's really ridiculous how this is still being touted as a massive mistake fare/glitch.   not a month after the "glitch," delta on a regular sale had better prices going from mia-tlv than ly did with all the hype. what a joke.   
Werent the tickets $350 each?

Delta didn't sell tickets for 350.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 30, 2012, 04:16:16 PM
Werent the tickets $350 each?

Delta didn't sell tickets for 350.
they were 350 only in the way beginning, they then slowly rose to 450 and 550 before being pulled.   
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Dan on October 30, 2012, 04:18:21 PM
they were 350 only in the way beginning, they then slowly rose to 450 and 550 before being pulled.   
-1.
If you saw prices rising that was because of seat inventory for the dates you were searching.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 30, 2012, 04:47:15 PM
Ahhhh, I've been doing a bit of research on El Al's operating procedure and on it's website, I found their Conditions of Carriage. Notice that 9.2.2 (a) states that one of your options is to extend the validity of your ticket. As US law states that price mistake tickets must be treated like any other ticket, then had you paid regular fare, the airline would've most likely agreed to extend your stay. Essentially, the airline is in violation of both their own Conditions of Carriage and US law. Also, they have the Israeli laws listed on their webpage and from my understanding of it (it is translated already into English) they may have even violated Israeli law. All of this because they did not properly offer my parents the compensation they are supposed to by their own admission.:

9.2 Cancellation, rerouting, delays and denied boarding compensation
9.2.1 We will take all necessary measures to avoid delay in carrying you and your Baggage. In the exercise of these measures and in order to prevent a flight cancellation, in unusual circumstances we may arrange for a flight to be operated on our behalf by an alternative carrier and/or aircraft.
9.2.2 Except as otherwise provided by the Warsaw Convention or the Montreal Convention, if we cancel a flight, fail to operate a flight reasonably according to the schedule, fail to stop at your destination or Stopover destination, or cause you to miss a connecting flight with us on which you hold a confirmed reservation we shall, in agreement with the Passenger, either:
(a) carry you at the earliest opportunity on another of our scheduled services on which space is available without additional charge and, where necessary, extend the validity of your Ticket; or
(b) within a reasonable period of time re-route you to the destination shown on your Ticket by our own services or those of another carrier, or by other mutually agreed means and class of transportation without additional charge. If the fare and charges for the revised routing are lower than what you have paid, we shall refund the difference; or
(c) make a refund in accordance with the provisions of Article 10.2.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: daganster on October 30, 2012, 05:52:09 PM
Slightly OT I bough a few glitch tickets and canceled them while they were promising a full refund. I waited a month, as they told me, and I didn't receive a refund. Elal an Expedia were sending me back and forth btw them as if I were a yo yo now I'm in the midst of a dispute with Amex.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 06:01:21 PM
If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.

Just be grateful they offered to rebook at all, AFAIK they don't have to (just refund).

+ 1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 30, 2012, 06:23:29 PM
Slightly OT I bough a few glitch tickets and canceled them while they were promising a full refund. I waited a month, as they told me, and I didn't receive a refund. Elal an Expedia were sending me back and forth btw them as if I were a yo yo now I'm in the midst of a dispute with Amex.

I had to cancel two of my "glitch tickets" and did so BEFORE August 31st deadline. El Al refunded only one. When disputing it, they stated to AMEX that they charged a $250 cancellation fee, contrary to the two emails I received direct from El Al confirming that there would be no penalty. However, t hey stated it would take 6-8 weeks to process (ridiculous). That makes sense that I was sent the cancellation fee because if it took that long to process, that would take me outside the window of no fee being assessed. El Al personnel are crooks, plain and simple. They complain they lost money and are trying to do shady things to recoup those losses when in fact, no one realizes these aren't truly glitch tickets. They simply pull shtick like other intl. airlines and add $1,000 in fuel surcharges. Crooks.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 06:25:10 PM
I had to cancel two of my "glitch tickets" and did so BEFORE August 31st deadline. El Al refunded only one. When disputing it, they stated to AMEX that they charged a $250 cancellation fee, contrary to the two emails I received direct from El Al confirming that there would be no penalty. However, t hey stated it would take 6-8 weeks to process (ridiculous). That makes sense that I was sent the cancellation fee because if it took that long to process, that would take me outside the window of no fee being assessed. El Al personnel are crooks, plain and simple. They complain they lost money and are trying to do shady things to recoup those losses when in fact, no one realizes these aren't truly glitch tickets. They simply pull shtick like other intl. airlines and add $1,000 in fuel surcharges. Crooks.

Dispute again and send a copy of the email to amex.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: joeb1 on October 30, 2012, 06:29:10 PM
I had to cancel two of my "glitch tickets" and did so BEFORE August 31st deadline. El Al refunded only one. When disputing it, they stated to AMEX that they charged a $250 cancellation fee, contrary to the two emails I received direct from El Al confirming that there would be no penalty. However, t hey stated it would take 6-8 weeks to process (ridiculous). That makes sense that I was sent the cancellation fee because if it took that long to process, that would take me outside the window of no fee being assessed. El Al personnel are crooks, plain and simple. They complain they lost money and are trying to do shady things to recoup those losses when in fact, no one realizes these aren't truly glitch tickets. They simply pull shtick like other intl. airlines and add $1,000 in fuel surcharges. Crooks.

I disagree with you. I think you should take a chill. They did honor our tickets so just chill out.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Jkhein on October 30, 2012, 06:29:30 PM
@Aeajda1, who are you really?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
@Aeajda1, who are you really?
+1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: moish on October 30, 2012, 06:32:25 PM
@Aeajda1, who are you really?
someone clearly with an ax to grind
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Centurion on October 30, 2012, 06:39:57 PM
elal employee?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 06:45:12 PM
I feel the need to weigh in here as I know the OP well and I have been helping him do the research on this issue.

If anything here is despicable it's taking advantage of a companys error.

I certainly hope they'd prioritze their customers when trying to rebook.

Just be grateful they offered to rebook at all, AFAIK they don't have to (just refund).

First off in regards to the "taking advantage of a company's error" statement, I hope you are joking. By virtue of the fact of being on these forums and being a significant poster to these forums you are seeking out deals yourself the site is called dansdeals.com not dansjustlookbutdonttakeadvantageofthesedeals.com (plus that would be a terribly long url). In a free market society, such as the one we live in prices are set by those who are selling goods and services and it is up to those people to ensure their accuracy. In the event of the El Al price mistake, they contracted out the price setting to a third party who incorrectly posted the prices, consumers than took advantage of these prices at what would appear to be El Al's expense, however, I am quite certain that El Al did not roll over on this mistake and took the appropriate actions necessary to recoup most of these loses from that third party's negligence. Most of us on these forums seek out deals on a daily basis, most of which are prices that are legitimately set, however, from time to time most of take find price mistakes and will take advantage of them on a YMMV basis. A case in point is the United (I think it was them) points deal for 4/8 miles on any flight connecting through I think it was Hong Kong. In this instance, the airline claimed foul and cancelled the tickets because of the error. People complained and the US DOT agreed with the airline stating that the error was one that should not be honored, giving an explanation that was justifiable under the definition of the law. In the case of the El Al price mistake, the law pretty much states that when an error is made in pricing, it MUST be honored as if it were a regular ticket purchased without the mistake. As the audience in this forum is predominantly Jewish (myself included) and the airline is perceived to be owned by Jews, being the Israeli national airline, that taking advantage of this deal is despicable, reprehensible, disgusting, etc., however, these same people would have no problem taking advantage of a deal if it were not a "Jewish" company, something which I think is even worse and is, I would even go so far as to state, a chilul Hashem. Being on this forum means one thing you are looking for a deal, and I believe Dan has done an excellent job with providing us these deals both on his website and within these forums. In a free market society you must always make sure that the prices you set are accurate, it is your responsibility, if you contract it out you are at the whim of someone else, if they make a mistake then only you are to blame, not the customer. Seriously, if you are a true competitive shopper then you have definitely price matched some time in your life, now is that fair? To you yes it is because it is the policy of the store to do so, but do you know if the store is losing money, no you probably don't and don't care either because it's policy. In this case, El Al operates in the US meaning they have to abide by US DOT laws, that being said someone screwed up and they must follow the law, it sucks but it's reality.

In terms of rebooking priority, in past experience with another airline (Air Canada), I thought priority is based on fare class paid when rebooking for flights affected by weather. Unless the policy has changed, the policy that I experienced was that priority first goes to prestige frequent flyer members of that airline and within each frequent flyer level it's in priority of where you stand on the standby list. It did not matter how much was paid for the flight. In my case, I was flying on a reward ticket (YYZ-LGA), someone I was talking to was flying last minute at an expense of $1500 for the O/W ticket, both of us had not status with the airline, as I was on an earlier cancelled flight I had priority over her regardless of how much she paid. In this case, El Al by law was to honor the tickets as if they were purchased without the error and as such priority should go in order of first come first served often in order of flights cancelled, however this is based on past experience and my opinion.

And in regards to rebooking vs. refund, AFAIK you're wrong. El Al's own contract of carriage clearly states that rebooking on the next available flight is one of the options that is to be offered in the event of cancellation. They also state that if possible the trip will match the same length of stay as originally booked. In the case of the OPs parents, they were told that the CS rep's manager told the CS reps that these tickets are not to be treated as standard fare class tickets. This in it of itself is in clear violation of the US DOT laws.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 06:50:21 PM
Previous post way to long and barely legible. Basically alot of drivel, unfounded and sometime biased assertions.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 06:52:20 PM
DRTL but pulled this out of the heap
"As the audience in this forum is predominantly Jewish (myself included) and the airline is perceived to be owned by Jews, being the Israeli national airline, that taking advantage of this deal is despicable, reprehensible, disgusting, etc., however, these same people would have no problem taking advantage of a deal if it were not a "Jewish" company, something which I think is even worse and is, I would even go so far as to state, a chilul Hashem."
And that is precisely an accurate assertion beacause?? ???
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 30, 2012, 07:05:13 PM
Dude, I would read the whole post but its too hard.

In no other industry is a company liable for its pricing mistakes. This AFAIK is unique to DOT regulation of the airline industry. (Quebec has a similar law)

I never said I wouldn't do it, but I do find it a little gross. Kinda like picking my nose. I do it, but agree its not the finest.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:09:44 PM
Sorry for the previously long winded rant but instead of weighing in on every comment posted I'll take one common comment and just rant.

I stand by that comment because its true, whether you want to admit it or not. Just because we use the internet to hide who we are the statements we make are not in a closed environment. Any educated person who comes to this site and forum can easily tell the predominant religion of those who are commonly active within this site and forum.

I've been following this website and forum for a long time now but only feel the necessity to contribute if I have something useful to add to the conversation. To see that regular members to this site generally have no problem with price mistakes elsewhere (the absence of objections shows this) but do when it affects a "Jewish" company is the reason for these comments.

One cannot pick and choose what's right and what's wrong in these types of scenarios, either its all right are all wrong and I cannot see a scenario where its both.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 30, 2012, 07:12:33 PM
Sorry for the previously long winded rant but instead of weighing in on every comment posted I'll take one common comment and just rant.

I stand by that comment because its true, whether you want to admit it or not. Just because we use the internet to hide who we are the statements we make are not in a closed environment. Any educated person who comes to this site and forum can easily tell the predominant religion of those who are commonly active within this site and forum.

I've been following this website and forum for a long time now but only feel the necessity to contribute if I have something useful to add to the conversation. To see that regular members to this site generally have no problem with price mistakes elsewhere (the absence of objections shows this) but do when it affects a "Jewish" company is the reason for these comments.

One cannot pick and choose what's right and what's wrong in these types of scenarios, either its all right are all wrong and I cannot see a scenario where its both.


I haven't changed my stance since the beginning. ELAL IS IMHO NOT ANYMORE JEWISH THAN ALITALIA
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:15:01 PM
Dude, I would read the whole post but its too hard.

In no other industry is a company liable for its pricing mistakes. This AFAIK is unique to DOT regulation of the airline industry. (Quebec has a similar law)

I never said I wouldn't do it, but I do find it a little gross. Kinda like picking my nose. I do it, but agree its not the finest.

Sorry the reply .wasn't meant to be directed at you personally, I just used the first response that had the common theme.

 In Ontario most retailers have a "scanning code of conduct" which is voluntary but most major retailers abide by which basically states if the price is listed as lower than what shows up on the register then if the product is under $10 its free and if over its reduced by $10. THe retailer may lose money doing this but its great customer service and ensures repeat customers.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 30, 2012, 07:16:19 PM
Sorry the reply .wasn't meant to be directed at you personally, I just used the first response that had the common theme.

 In Ontario most retailers have a "scanning code of conduct" which is voluntary but most major retailers abide by which basically states if the price is listed as lower than what shows up on the register then if the product is under $10 its free and if over its reduced by $10. THe retailer may lose money doing this but its great customer service and ensures repeat customers.

You may thing they'd do that, but nobody got the galaxy's from Rogers when it was a significant loss.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 07:16:48 PM

To see that regular members to this site generally have no problem with price mistakes elsewhere (the absence of objections shows this) but do when it affects a "Jewish" company is the reason for these comments.

Dude, and how do you answer for the entitlement attitude prevalent with this deal as if you deserve it.?

One cannot pick and choose what's right and what's wrong in these types of scenarios, either its all right are all wrong and I cannot see a scenario where its both.

Learn some Shulchan Aruch.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:17:48 PM

I haven't changed my stance since the beginning. ELAL IS IMHO NOT ANYMORE JEWISH THAN ALITALIA

Sorry for the confusion that post was in connection to the comments made by u_no_me
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 07:17:53 PM
Sorry the reply .wasn't meant to be directed at you personally, I just used the first response that had the common theme.

 In Ontario most retailers have a "scanning code of conduct" which is voluntary but most major retailers abide by which basically states if the price is listed as lower than what shows up on the register then if the product is under $10 its free and if over its reduced by $10. THe retailer may lose money doing this but its great customer service and ensures repeat customers.

Okay, so it's great CS, therefore...
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 07:19:56 PM
Sorry for the confusion that post was in connection to the comments made by u_no_me

Ummm, you mean where i +1 PG's comments?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:24:20 PM
Dude, and how do you answer for the entitlement attitude prevalent with this deal as if you deserve it.?

Learn some Sulchan Aruch.

Never said I deserved it, have no entitlement attitude whatsoever as I didn't even get in on the deal myself.

Never learned SULCHAN aruch but I do know my Shulchan Aruch pretty sure that dinay hamakom supersede this but halacha is not the issue here but the USDOT rules.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:25:53 PM
Ummm, you mean where i +1 PG's comments?

No it was in regards to comment #49
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 07:27:52 PM
No it was in regards to comment #49

Where I copied and pasted what you wrote?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Never said I deserved it, have no entitlement attitude whatsoever as I didn't even get in on the deal myself.

I'm trying to say that my issue isn't necessarily with people getting in on the deal, rather it's with the entitlement attitude that they have.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:47:12 PM
I'm trying to say that my issue isn't necessarily with people getting in on the deal, rather it's with the entitlement attitude that they have.

Nice edit earlier ;D

I actually agree with you here, some people have an entitlement attitude when it comes to these deals which can be a bit excessive. The reason for my comments here is in direct relation to the actions taken by El Al after stating that they were going to honor the tickets like regular tickets. In regards to the OPs parents I remember speaking with them after they bought the tickets and asked them what they would do if the tkts were cancelled, their response was "Oh well," not "I'm going to file a complaint." They had no entitlement attitude.

The purpose of this thread was to provide a cautionary tale to those who do have these tickets that should their flights be affected by weather that they will be treated as second-rate passengers by the airline and not like a regular fare paying customer as they were promised by the airline.

Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 07:50:49 PM
You may thing they'd do that, but nobody got the galaxy's from Rogers when it was a significant loss.

Haha...just saw this comment and I am assuming you are CDN. Come on everyone knows that there is no such thing as a deal from Rogers.  :D
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 30, 2012, 08:01:36 PM
I disagree with you. I think you should take a chill. They did honor our tickets so just chill out.
i dunno, my sister tells me they've been harassing her calling her repeatedly to try and get her to change her ticket to the direct flight...  seems like they left the classy route behind a while back
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: WhyAich on October 30, 2012, 08:05:01 PM

I haven't changed my stance since the beginning. ELAL IS IMHO NOT ANYMORE JEWISH THAN ALITALIA
Bolding IMHO ain't so humble ;)
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 30, 2012, 08:05:45 PM
Bolding IMHO ain't so humble ;)

H stands for Honest.

GL
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 30, 2012, 08:06:02 PM
@Aeajda1, who are you really?

I dunno... Who am I?
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 30, 2012, 08:17:03 PM
Caveman? ?!?!?!

Question: you are on a forum called dansdeals... Because of Dan's history as a shrewd master of travel arbitrage, thousands of people (likely more) have taken advantage of everything from free k cups to next to nothing airline tickets. In between, there are also ways to utilize credit cards , taking out business cards, for example, for points when there is no "actual business" and reasons such as that.

Is that honest? Or are they just evil credit cards looking to steal our money so let's just game the system like buying dollar coins, paying off cc's with those dollars, and taking the points (which by the way cost the credit card company money).

Bottom line... This was a deal. There was a ton of speculation as to why it was cheap, folks bought them, and the airline honored them. Now treat ALL customers with respect. I am certain you, sir, aren't one that games the credit card system but rather comes to this site and forum to brag of the free k cups
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: caveman924 on October 30, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
Caveman? ?!?!?!

Hahahaha.....no not the same person.
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 31, 2012, 09:36:41 AM
Question: you are on a forum called dansdeals... Because of Dan's history as a shrewd master of travel arbitrage, thousands of people (likely more) have taken advantage of everything from free k cups to next to nothing airline tickets. In between, there are also ways to utilize credit cards , taking out business cards, for example, for points when there is no "actual business" and reasons such as that.

Is that honest? Or are they just evil credit cards looking to steal our money so let's just game the system like buying dollar coins, paying off cc's with those dollars, and taking the points (which by the way cost the credit card company money).

Bottom line... This was a deal. There was a ton of speculation as to why it was cheap, folks bought them, and the airline honored them. Now treat ALL customers with respect. I am certain you, sir, aren't one that games the credit card system but rather comes to this site and forum to brag of the free k cups
Judge thyself, not others.
You'll he a happier and much more productive person
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on October 31, 2012, 11:03:47 AM
H stands for Honest.

GL
No, humble.

Simply stating because I am not a rabbinic authority, and there might differentiation if Roiv shareholders are Jewish but I don't think so
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: AJK on October 31, 2012, 11:56:30 AM
H stands for Honest.

GL

-1
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 31, 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Judge thyself, not others.
lol, he's coming to say you shouldn't be judging him because you're all doing the same thing he is, and so you tell him not to judge others?   
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 31, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
lol, he's coming to say you shouldn't be judging him because you're all doing the same thing he is, and so you tell him not to judge others?
I don't think anyone (with maybe the exception of PG) judged him. Just saying that his assessment of the situation is off
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: yare on October 31, 2012, 01:44:11 PM
I don't think anyone (with maybe the exception of PG) judged him. Just saying that his assessment of the situation is off

i'm not involved... just enjoyed the irony of it. 
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 31, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
I don't think anyone (with maybe the exception of PG) judged him. Just saying that his assessment of the situation is off

I am off how? I started this thread to simply state, albeit in an irate way, how El Al are thieving crooks. I have heard, as early as today about others who were in the same situation who also got screwed over.

After being scolded by other commenters about taking advantage of El Al and how I shouldn't complain, I merely stated the purpose of dan's great site. Bottom line: we all come to the site to get great deals but, at times, are lucky and THRILLED to get those once in a blue moon awesome deals. This was one of those deals. Ergel, I judge all of the self righteous who claim to be rabbinic authorities on these matters and tell ME not to take advantage of these deals. These are the same holy yidden who are ON dans deals! Why are they there?
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Jkhein on October 31, 2012, 07:13:55 PM
I am off how? I started this thread to simply state, albeit in an irate way, how El Al are thieving crooks. I have heard, as early as today about others who were in the same situation who also got screwed over.

After being scolded by other commenters about taking advantage of El Al and how I shouldn't complain, I merely stated the purpose of dan's great site. Bottom line: we all come to the site to get great deals but, at times, are lucky and THRILLED to get those once in a blue moon awesome deals. This was one of those deals. Ergel, I judge all of the self righteous who claim to be rabbinic authorities on these matters and tell ME not to take advantage of these deals. These are the same holy yidden who are ON dans deals! Why are they there?
thieving crooks who take you to Israel for $350 - ROFL
amazing (actually sickening) how unappreciative some people are !
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 31, 2012, 07:15:56 PM
-1

Sentiment: Was being facetious.

O0
Title: Re: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on October 31, 2012, 07:23:51 PM
I am off how? I started this thread to simply state, albeit in an irate way, how El Al are thieving crooks. I have heard, as early as today about others who were in the same situation who also got screwed over.

After being scolded by other commenters about taking advantage of El Al and how I shouldn't complain, I merely stated the purpose of dan's great site. Bottom line: we all come to the site to get great deals but, at times, are lucky and THRILLED to get those once in a blue moon awesome deals. This was one of those deals. Ergel, I judge all of the self righteous who claim to be rabbinic authorities on these matters and tell ME not to take advantage of these deals. These are the same holy yidden who are ON dans deals! Why are they there?
I don't think most people (with the possible exception of PG) were scolding you for taking advantage, rather just saying that it makes sense that el Al would take care of their real customers before you (and me, in January and Pesach time)
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: U-no-me! on October 31, 2012, 07:27:39 PM

(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/13049/popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 31, 2012, 11:02:34 PM
thieving crooks who take you to Israel for $350 - ROFL
amazing (actually sickening) how unappreciative some people are !

Dude, before responding and using stupid acronyms like ROFL.. Read the initial post. Or the ones after that for context....
Title: Re: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on October 31, 2012, 11:08:28 PM
I don't think most people (with the possible exception of PG) were scolding you for taking advantage, rather just saying that it makes sense that el Al would take care of their real customers before you (and me, in January and Pesach time)

What defines a real customer is my point. YOUR beliefs are that someone who pays full price is a real customer whereas the 6000 people who got this deal are not. However, when I call up El Al there isn't an asterisk stating that I have a glitch ticket. Not only that but even these glitch tickets, once ticketed, put me in the same fare class as you and all the people who paid full price.

This is like telling someone who gets bumped and gets a voucher for a free ticket that they are second class to someone who paid out of pocket... Or the same as someone who pays 200 bucks for a ticket and someone else pays 900... Your rationale is so incredibly flawed. If you are a business, which it appears El Al is not, you treat ALL customers with respect because that is how you get repeat customers :)
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 01, 2012, 12:27:25 AM
What defines a real customer is my point. YOUR beliefs are that someone who pays full price is a real customer whereas the 6000 people who got this deal are not. However, when I call up El Al there isn't an asterisk stating that I have a glitch ticket. Not only that but even these glitch tickets, once ticketed, put me in the same fare class as you and all the people who paid full price.

This is like telling someone who gets bumped and gets a voucher for a free ticket that they are second class to someone who paid out of pocket... Or the same as someone who pays 200 bucks for a ticket and someone else pays 900... Your rationale is so incredibly flawed. If you are a business, which it appears El Al is not, you treat ALL customers with respect because that is how you get repeat customers :)

Again, your opinion, but not the one we are arguing now. I said previously I agreed everyone should receive a basic level of service. In terms of priority I was explaining why El Al would first ticket passengers who paid full price first and I still believe that, but, again, not the point we are discussing now.
I was saying that you should not judge others and berate them. That is a defensive stance which will make others not like you. In the long run it will not make you a happier person.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 01, 2012, 12:30:27 AM
I am off how? I started this thread to simply state, albeit in an irate way,
That I think is the key point. If you would have presented yourself differently, the response may have been different.
Judging on the way you presented here I would not be surprised if that was the way you presented as well to the El Al agent, which may have been part of the reason for the response you received. Being abrasive is least likely way to receive what you want.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 01, 2012, 01:21:52 AM
Beyond me how someone who is making a company provide him something at a loss because the law provides him an opportunity calling the airline thieving crooks

How can they be thieves when u end up with their property?

Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on November 01, 2012, 12:06:37 PM
Beyond me how someone who is making a company provide him something at a loss because the law provides him an opportunity calling the airline thieving crooks

How can they be thieves when u end up with their property?
Like mentioned a million times on the forums Elal did not lose anything, they only gained from this like Dan explained a million times, but seems like you don't bother reading these days...
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 01, 2012, 12:11:20 PM
Whoever didn't switch I think Dan would agree el Al probably lost
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on November 01, 2012, 12:13:12 PM
Whoever didn't switch I think Dan would agree el Al probably lost
I would say they didnt lose or gain.
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 01, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
I would say they didnt lose or gain.
How do you know how much el Al pays American?
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: JEWDA on November 01, 2012, 12:15:55 PM
How do you know how much el Al pays American?
I don't.
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 01, 2012, 12:18:13 PM
I don't.

So how would you say
they didnt lose or gain.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 01, 2012, 05:46:44 PM
Whoever didn't switch I think Dan would agree el Al probably lost
El Al didn't lose anything,.... They charge 1000 dollar fuel surcharges:) in addition insurance for the company who prices in the surcharges and who failed to do this paid for the difference... That's how it works
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 01, 2012, 05:49:04 PM
That I think is the key point. If you would have presented yourself differently, the response may have been different.
Judging on the way you presented here I would not be surprised if that was the way you presented as well to the El Al agent, which may have been part of the reason for the response you received. Being abrasive is least likely way to receive what you want.

Thank you for the lesson in civility and in humility... And don't make presumptions...that way, as you so stated in the previous post, people will like you more ;)
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: moish on November 02, 2012, 10:12:14 AM
Judging on the way you presented here I would not be surprised if that was the way you presented as well to the El Al agent, which may have been part of the reason for the response you received. Being abrasive is least likely way to receive what you want.
absoultely on the mark.
especially with israelis. if you come on too harsh they will match you
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 02, 2012, 10:18:41 AM
El Al didn't lose anything,.... They charge 1000 dollar fuel surcharges:)
 
No clue what you mean by this.


 
Quote

 in addition insurance for the company who prices in the surcharges and who failed to do this paid for the difference... That's how it works
Nice speculation but you don't know that for sure. There has been plenty of speculation that el Al had no recourse to recoup its losses. No one can for sure. Meshugenuritis sure is spreading.
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 02, 2012, 10:21:43 AM
Quote
Quote from: Ergel on Yesterday at 12:30:27 am (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21459.msg329473#msg329473)
Quote
That I think is the key point. If you would have presented yourself differently, the response may have been different.<br />Judging on the way you presented here I would not be surprised if that was the way you presented as well to the El Al agent, which may have been part of the reason for the response you received. Being abrasive is least likely way to receive what you want.<br />
<br /><br />Thank you for the lesson in civility and in humility... And don't make presumptions...that way, as you so stated in the previous post, people will like you more ;)

I definitely did not make any presumptions. I also did not make any assumptions, just speculated that I would not be surprised if that is what happened (which is why I said I would not be surprised and did not state it as fact)
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 02, 2012, 02:58:42 PM
<br /><br />Thank you for the lesson in civility and in humility... And don't make presumptions...that way, as you so stated in the previous post, people will like you more ;)

I definitely did not make any presumptions. I also did not make any assumptions, just speculated that I would not be surprised if that is what happened (which is why I said I would not be surprised and did not state it as fact)
[/quote]

You presume.... As for the insurance, that is exactly how it works... Let's just say. Work in the industry and leave it at that...Finally you say you aren't sure what I mean by the 1000 dollar surcharge and me taking advantage.. Intl. airlines, for years , have been charging that in addition to the base fare.. It's a ploy to get you to think tickets are cheap until you realize all the taxes and the massive fuel surcharge... Glitch tickets were glitches simply because the fuel surcharge was left off, a bogus charge from the get go
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 03, 2012, 09:19:35 PM
Intl. airlines, for years , have been charging that in addition to the base fare.. It's a ploy to get you to think tickets are cheap until you realize all the taxes and the massive fuel surcharge... Glitch tickets were glitches simply because the fuel surcharge was left off, a bogus charge from the get go
BS
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
BS
I've finally moved on. I'd suggest you do the same
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 03, 2012, 10:09:48 PM
I've finally moved on. I'd suggest you do the same
Deal
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 03, 2012, 10:41:27 PM
I've finally moved on. I'd suggest you do the same

Then why are you both responding to my thread? I love negative people who peruse this site trying to prove everyone wrong... Must be compensating... As for the BS on fuel charges, do the research and get back to me on what you find...
Title: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 03, 2012, 10:42:35 PM
BS

Hey, if you don't believe ask the king of kings , Dan himself ;)
Title: Re: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Ergel on November 03, 2012, 11:07:42 PM
Then why are you both responding to my thread? I love negative people who peruse this site trying to prove everyone wrong... Must be compensating... As for the BS on fuel charges, do the research and get back to me on what you find...


I've finally moved on. I'd suggest you do the same
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 03, 2012, 11:57:00 PM
I thought we had a deal?
Forgot I said deal. Ill delete it.
Title: Re: Re: El Al laying down the law
Post by: Aeajda1 on November 04, 2012, 03:08:19 PM
Forgot I said deal. Ill delete it.

Looks like a love connection folks