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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:13:13 PM

Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:13:13 PM
Having a child is really, really, really, difficult, even painful sometimes.

It seems like in the frum community having lots of children is sacrosanct. Speak to people and even if they have a lot of difficulty with their kids, they are quick to assure you that children are a blessing lest they seem ungrateful.

Couples with no or few children are looked upon sadly as though they must be suffering. An infertile couple is made to seem tragic.

If you are a parent who has complained about your child, have you ever quickly retracted the complaint for fear that G-d may take away your child for complaining?

I have one daughter and at times she can make us pretty miserable. I believe lots of couples may be suffering, having been thrust into parenthood without having even a basic idea of what to expect. They are afraid to voice complaints so they won't be seen as ungrateful to G-d or incompetent parents. This is especially true while in the company of single/infertile friends.

I've taken a look around and noticed couples who had one child right after marriage and then waited a looong time before having another. Is this due to the jarring reality of having children?

The sad reality is it's the child who suffers most from an unprepared parent

It's high time this discussion takes place, in my (humble) opinion, and what better place to start it than DDF?

Your thoughts?

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2013, 06:17:13 PM
Having a child is really, really, really, difficult, even painful sometimes.

It seems like in the frum community having lots of children is sacrosanct. Speak to people and even if they have a lot of difficulty with their kids, they are quick to assure you that children are a blessing lest they seem ungrateful.

Couples with no or few children are looked upon sadly as though they must be suffering. An infertile couple is made to seem tragic.

If you are a parent who has complained about your child, have you ever quickly retracted the complaint for fear that G-d may take away your child for complaining?

I have one daughter and at times she can make us pretty miserable. I believe lots of couples may be suffering, having been thrust into parenthood without having even a basic idea of what to expect. They are afraid to voice complaints so they won't be seen as ungrateful to G-d or incompetent parents. This is especially true while in the company of single/infertile friends.

I've taken a look around and noticed couples who had one child right after marriage and then waited a looong time before having another. Is this due to the jarring reality of having children?

The sad reality is it's the child who suffers most from an unprepared parent

It's high time this discussion takes place, in my (humble) opinion, and what better place to start it than DDF?

Your thoughts?
I can assure you that the one who wrote this didn't say the truth when saying:
I have one daughter
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 06:27:25 PM
I can assure you that the one who wrote this didn't say the truth when saying:
Huh?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:28:27 PM
Huh?
+1.

What the heck are you saying?  ???
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2013, 06:31:26 PM
Once you have a child, you don't think so negatively about childrern. period.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:34:58 PM


Once you have a child, you don't think so negatively about childrern. period.
What did I say that's negative? Are you joking or are you trying to prove my points?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: mmermss on January 03, 2013, 06:36:07 PM
Once you have a child, you don't think so negatively about childrern. period.
I did not think the OP was thinking so negatively about children..what I got out is that the OP thinks its very hard to raise and deal with children....especially if you have no preparations and mehalach in chinuch.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 06:37:00 PM
Raising children is one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. I don't think people except how hard it will be. Or let alone how hard marriage will/can be.

On the other hand I am not a fan of those people constantly complaining to the whole world on Facebook or in person about their kids etc. But of course it's healthy to be able to speak to your friends in person of the hard times.


I do agree that there are many people out there having many kids who are overwhelmed but won't admit it to themselves since it's "a blessing".

It most definitely is a very big Bracha to have children. But at the same time raising kids will be one of the hardest things you will ever do.

Being appreciative doesn't mean having to deny the fact that you are having a hard time.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:38:43 PM
I did not think the OP was thinking so negatively about children..what I got out is that the OP thinks its very hard to raise and deal with children....especially if you have no preparations and mehalach in chinuch.

Exactly. How many people here had some kind of chassan/kallah class before getting married?
Now, how many had a children/chinuch class before having children?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 06:40:07 PM
Exactly. How many people here had some kind of chassan/kallah class before getting married?
Now, how many had a children/chinuch class before having children?

I think there are kind of 2 aspects to it. The chinuch part, and the emotionally and physically taxing part.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 06:43:41 PM
Exactly. How many people here had some kind of chassan/kallah class before getting married?
Now, how many had a children/chinuch class before having children?
I think there are kind of 2 aspects to it. The chinuch part, and the emotionally and physically taxing part.
Darn good question.

Then again nothing could've prepared us for 3 months of an ultra-colicky baby.  One of my brothers was apparently colicky for 18 months...I can't even imagine.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 06:52:31 PM
Putting our kid to sleep is one of our harder rituals. One day shortly after she was born I realized that I'm going to be doing this practically every single night (in some form) for the next 12 - 15 years. And that's if we don't have more kids. That was a pretty big moment realizing how much our lives had changed. 

And this forum is actually a great place to discuss this. The people here are used to hopping on a plane at the drop of a hat, and you can definitely do that with a spouse. But with a kid it's an upheaval and with two or more its practically impossible. If you don't think makes it even more difficult, well, I don't know what to say.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 06:56:07 PM
Putting our kid to sleep is one of our harder rituals. One day shortly after she was born I realized that I'm going to be doing this practically every single night (in some form) for the next 12 - 15 years. And that's if we don't have more kids. That was a pretty big moment realizing how much our lives had changed. 

And this forum is actually a great place to discuss this. The people here are used to hopping on a plane at the drop of a hat, and you can definitely do that with a spouse. But with a kid it's an upheaval and with two or more its practically impossible. If you don't think makes it even more difficult, well, I don't know what to say.

It's definitely harder with a kid to travel. Some kids travel better than others. And some parents travel better than others. Personality plays a big role in raising kids. Theirs and yours.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 06:56:39 PM
Putting our kid to sleep is one of our harder rituals. One day shortly after she was born I realized that I'm going to be doing this practically every single night (in some form) for the next 12 - 15 years. And that's if we don't have more kids. That was a pretty big moment realizing how much our lives had changed. 

And this forum is actually a great place to discuss this. The people here are used to hopping on a plane at the drop of a hat, and you can definitely do that with a spouse. But with a kid it's an upheaval and with two or more its practically impossible. If you don't think makes it even more difficult, well, I don't know what to say.

Things will get easier. (Things will also get harder. But so is life. )
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 03, 2013, 06:57:04 PM
Who was the נביא who didn't want to have kids because of inhertided disabilities?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 03, 2013, 07:02:36 PM
I've taken a look around and noticed couples who had one child right after marriage and then waited a looong time before having another. Is this due to the jarring reality of having children?
FYI there is something called "secondary infertility."

Not necessarily is it by choice that a couple "waited a looong time before having another."
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2013, 07:08:13 PM
FYI there is something called "secondary infertility."

Not necessarily is it by choice that a couple "waited a looong time before having another."
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 07:12:58 PM
FYI there is something called "secondary infertility."

Not necessarily is it by choice that a couple "waited a looong time before having another."

Seems to be happening to lots of my friends,  ::)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2013, 07:29:56 PM
Why am I always on the other side of the fence?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: jj1000 on January 03, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
Why am I always on the other side of the fence?
Which side is that? It is probably because you have a different background than most members. (A non cynical answer is very rare for me)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: hocker on January 03, 2013, 07:34:01 PM
Who was the נביא who didn't want to have kids because of inhertided disabilities?
Chizkyahu.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2013, 07:35:12 PM
Which side is that? It is probably because you have a different background than most members. (A non cynical answer is very rare for me)
I don't think kids are a problem.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 07:35:46 PM
I don't think kids are a problem.
How old were you when you got married and when first had kids if you don't mind my asking?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: jj1000 on January 03, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
I don't think kids are a problem.
Got ya. Well I can not have an opinion on this topic as I don't have kids. Do you think your kids were easy to raise? Did you always feel this way or now that they are grown up? Also it probably makes a difference as to how much your wife does verse you do.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2013, 07:38:39 PM
How old were you when you got married and when first had kids if you don't mind my asking?
I see where you are coming from. I was 31 and first child about 2 years later.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 07:38:57 PM
Also it probably makes a difference as to how much your wife does verse you do.

+2
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 07:40:47 PM
Having a wife at home and being financially comfortable also helps a lot.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 07:47:06 PM
I see where you are coming from. I was 31 and first child about 2 years later.
Bingo :)

Typical guy on this forum is probably married with kids by 25.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: thaber on January 03, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
I have a bunch of kids, and had them relatively close together, another due soon be"H.
Its tough, but exponentially gets easier. And then the big kids help out with the small ones.
I will say that we fly quite a bit, and 16 hour flights as well. I don't look forward to it, but I wouldn't call it impossible.
I wouldn't minimize the frustration of the OP, but from a purely gashmius point of view - the Nachas is worth the effort.
Also - Ferberize!! Putting my kids to sleep takes about 2 minutes a piece, including Shema
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: mmermss on January 03, 2013, 07:49:04 PM
Bingo :)

Typical guy on this forum is probably married with kids by 25.
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2013, 07:54:29 PM
Got ya. Well I can not have an opinion on this topic as I don't have kids. Do you think your kids were easy to raise? Did you always feel this way or now that they are grown up? Also it probably makes a difference as to how much your wife does verse you do.
I guess easy would be the wrong word. You could say it is a job I enjoyed doing. DW did most of the work when they were younger and now it is the opposite. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 03, 2013, 07:56:51 PM
Bingo :)

Typical guy on this forum is probably married with kids by 25.
The light bulb went on the minute you asked the question. Age makes a big difference.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 08:07:59 PM
Another aspect is mentality. When you're up nights with a colicky baby it's very helpful to know that this is something you thought about and decided to do.

If you are 23 and just did it without thinking because that's what you are supposed to do it makes things much harder.
Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: WhyAich on January 03, 2013, 08:10:53 PM
Gosh I'm sitting in class now, listening how I have to write up a 10 page research paper on a boring topic. I can write 10 pages on this.... Hope I find the time. I have so much to write
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 08:11:20 PM
Another aspect is mentality. When you're up nights with a colicky baby it's very helpful to know that this is something you thought about and decided to do.

If you are 23 and just did it without thinking because that's what you are supposed to do it makes things much harder.

Which is also why even though "nothing can prepare you" for having all those nights with a colicky baby, and there isn't much to do to make the situation better it helps to know beforehand what you are getting yourself into and what it's really going to be like.

Obviously you never really know until you're going through it and it will be hard nonetheless but having an idea beforehand should help somewhat.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
People who have really difficult children are the lucky ones. There are young boys and girls  who have first children with Downs Syndrome. Do you think they are prepared for that?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 08:16:40 PM
People who have really difficult children are the lucky ones.

They aren't "lucky" but yes they could appreciate that it could be "worse/harder."

Everyone can always say that. Things can always be worse/harder.

Which is why if you look at people who had kids later on in life after trying for a while they always seem to appreciate it a lot more. Even with all the challenges.

There are young boys and girls  who have first children with Downs Syndrome. Do you think they are prepared for that?

They most def are not prepared for that. No one could be. But you COULD be more prepared and informed of the regular issues and changes that arise from having kids.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 08:18:50 PM
I think there is a lot to be said on the issue of having kids at a young age.  And marriage as well for that matter.  My biggest concern with younger people getting married is them not even having had the time to experience the real want and need of feeling like there is something/someone missing from their lives.

With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 03, 2013, 08:29:19 PM
I'm 25 and married, my daughter is turning 2 tomorrow. Is it hard at times? Absolutely!!! Is it worth all the work, sleepless nights, sleepless flights and restrictions on my life? 100% for sure!!!

I don't say she makes my life miserable, and not only because I don't want to sound ungrateful, or like a bad parent. Because she doesn't. I'm happy to travel less, sleep less, and have restrictions on my life, because I love my daughter, and can't imagine a life without her.

If I had feelings of misery, or trouble coping I would seek professionall counseling or assistance. There is no shame in admitting to yourself or others that you are challenged by raising children. There are so many other high stress things that can be going on, and it's only natural to feel overwhelmed. Health issues, lack of sustenance and financial instability, marital strife, add hardships in child- rearing to any of those and lots of people would be overwhelmed.

Please take my advice, if anyone is feeling oberwhelmed about anything, seek guidance, advice, assistance or counseling from a professional, or someone you trust and are comfortable with. There is no shame, or reason to feel guilty or inadequate.

I will admit that all the props go to my wonderful wife. Without her I would be unable to raise my daughter, and would probably be a huge mess myself. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 03, 2013, 08:32:23 PM
I'm 25 and married, my daughter is turning 2 tomorrow. Is it hard at times? Absolutely!!! Is it worth all the work, sleepless nights, sleepless flights and restrictions on my life? 100% for sure!!!

I don't say she makes my life miserable, and not only because I don't want to sound ungrateful, or like a bad parent. Because she doesn't. I'm happy to travel less, sleep less, and have restrictions on my life, because I love my daughter, and can't imagine a life without her.

If I had feelings of misery, or trouble coping I would seek professionall counseling or assistance. There is no shame in admitting to yourself or others that you are challenged by raising children. There are so many other high stress things that can be going on, and it's only natural to feel overwhelmed. Health issues, lack of sustenance and financial instability, marital strife, add hardships in child- rearing to any of those and lots of people would be overwhelmed.

Please take my advice, if anyone is feeling oberwhelmed about anything, seek guidance, advice, assistance or counseling from a professional, or someone you trust and are comfortable with. There is no shame, or reason to feel guilty or inadequate.

I will admit that all the props go to my wonderful wife. Without her I would be unable to raise my daughter, and would probably be a huge mess myself.

Happy Birthday lil miss MosheP! Ad 120 Happy and Healthy!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 08:34:55 PM
I'm 25 and married, my daughter is turning 2 tomorrow. Is it hard at times? Absolutely!!! Is it worth all the work, sleepless nights, sleepless flights and restrictions on my life? 100% for sure!!!

I don't say she makes my life miserable, and not only because I don't want to sound ungrateful, or like a bad parent. Because she doesn't. I'm happy to travel less, sleep less, and have restrictions on my life, because I love my daughter, and can't imagine a life without her.

If I had feelings of misery, or trouble coping I would seek professionall counseling or assistance. There is no shame in admitting to yourself or others that you are challenged by raising children. There are so many other high stress things that can be going on, and it's only natural to feel overwhelmed. Health issues, lack of sustenance and financial instability, marital strife, add hardships in child- rearing to any of those and lots of people would be overwhelmed.

Please take my advice, if anyone is feeling oberwhelmed about anything, seek guidance, advice, assistance or counseling from a professional, or someone you trust and are comfortable with. There is no shame, or reason to feel guilty or inadequate.

I will admit that all the props go to my wonderful wife. Without her I would be unable to raise my daughter, and would probably be a huge mess myself. 
Well said.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 03, 2013, 08:45:28 PM
Which is also why even though "nothing can prepare you" for having all those nights with a colicky baby, and there isn't much to do to make the situation better it helps to know beforehand what you are getting yourself into and what it's really going to be like.

Obviously you never really know until you're going through it and it will be hard nonetheless but having an idea beforehand should help somewhat.


+100
Kids aren't the issue, its unreal expectations. Many young people expect that parenthood will be angelic cherub from a Pampers commercial (funny that they never show the actual changing of a diaper). My wife and I are both the oldest of pretty large families and both knew first hand what child rearing is and what it isn't. But then I have many friends who are totally overwhelmed and the #1 complaint i hear is "No 0ne told me it would be this hard".
Yes child rearing is hard, and yes child rearing is rewarding. Like anything in life; "No pain, No gain", and like almost everything the greater the pain the greater the gain (לפום צערא אגרא). Just be prepared, and know it wont be smooth sailing all  the way, but the sunset at the end (and during) is definitely worth it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2013, 08:55:49 PM
Exactly. How many people here had some kind of chassan/kallah class before getting married?
Now, how many had a children/chinuch class before having children?
+1.

Think about it - to become a lawyer you need a degree and the Bar exam, to become an accountant you need a degree and the CPA exam, to become a doctor  etc etc.

Yet to become a parent - One of the hardest most complex jobs out there- anyone can have a baby.  It's scary when you think about how ill equipped many people are to be a controlling figure with a huge impact on a child's life without any training...

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2013, 09:44:03 PM
I'm 25 and married, my daughter is turning 2 tomorrow. Is it hard at times? Absolutely!!! Is it worth all the work, sleepless nights, sleepless flights and restrictions on my life? 100% for sure!!!

I don't say she makes my life miserable, and not only because I don't want to sound ungrateful, or like a bad parent. Because she doesn't. I'm happy to travel less, sleep less, and have restrictions on my life, because I love my daughter, and can't imagine a life without her.

If I had feelings of misery, or trouble coping I would seek professionall counseling or assistance. There is no shame in admitting to yourself or others that you are challenged by raising children. There are so many other high stress things that can be going on, and it's only natural to feel overwhelmed. Health issues, lack of sustenance and financial instability, marital strife, add hardships in child- rearing to any of those and lots of people would be overwhelmed.

Please take my advice, if anyone is feeling oberwhelmed about anything, seek guidance, advice, assistance or counseling from a professional, or someone you trust and are comfortable with. There is no shame, or reason to feel guilty or inadequate.

I will admit that all the props go to my wonderful wife. Without her I would be unable to raise my daughter, and would probably be a huge mess myself.
+1000
Overwhelming? Yes.
Stressful? No.
I'm very very young, my daughter is 18 months, but the love for your own children (and with work shared with your life-partner) its so enjoyable and thus feels so easy.
No, she wasn't colicky, B"H, so I can't speak for such parents, but had the usual health and other issues 90% parents are experiencing.
Its all about your love and feelings.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2013, 09:53:17 PM
Stressful? No.
Sorry but it's rude to say point blank that parenting isn't stressful.
Ever kid presents their own set of challenges. Count your blessings that yours wasn't stressful.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 03, 2013, 10:17:46 PM
+1000
Stressful? No.
???
what's tzar gidul banim all about
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 10:24:49 PM
+100
Kids aren't the issue, its unreal expectations. Many young people expect that parenthood will be angelic cherub from a Pampers commercial (funny that they never show the actual changing of a diaper). My wife and I are both the oldest of pretty large families and both knew first hand what child rearing is and what it isn't. But then I have many friends who are totally overwhelmed and the #1 complaint i hear is "No 0ne told me it would be this hard".


This is a key point. One of the above posts mentioned people complaining about their kids on Facebook. That hasn't been my experience. I have a FB account and 99% of child pictures posted are the ones of their happy adorable kid looking as cute as a button and oozing nachas.

I feel like these pictures are somewhat false because they tell a story that is only half true. Yes there are times when your kid is happy and cute and makes you feel proud to be their parent, but the lightbulb went on for me when I posted one of the above mentioned photos and my kid was splattered in spaghetti sauce chucking meatballs over the side of her highchair and throwing a tantrum. But my single and infertile friends look at the picture of harmony and probably feel lonely and sad. Because I'm showing them the bliss that they are missing and yet it isn't all blissful.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 03, 2013, 10:35:32 PM
Having a wife at home and being financially comfortable also helps a lot.
+100
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MarkS on January 03, 2013, 10:39:15 PM
They say money won't bring happiness but if I'm gonna be sad anyway I'd rather be rich and sad than poor and sad!

Having live in help and when the wife doesn't need to work changes the dynamics entirely!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 03, 2013, 10:41:05 PM
Don't wanna sound preachy, but we live in such a selfish society, where its all about how I can have fun, a good life a successful career etc. Sadly this life view has seeped into our communities too.
"A person was not put on this world for himself-only to better others". With this outlook, what may at times seem like a burden turns into a beautiful rewarding mission.
Especially raising Yiddishe kinder!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2013, 10:56:56 PM
Don't wanna sound preachy,
You do. And while everything you said is true, that's not the only reason why it's difficult to raise children. And to say so minimizes others challenges
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 03, 2013, 11:19:15 PM
that's not the only reason why it's difficult to raise children.

I agree. The cost of living is so high, and when you factor in all the needs of just one child it just skyrockets. Clothing, Food, Schooling, etc. If a couple doesn't have two moderate/well paying jobs it can get overwhelming and if you are lucky enough to have two working parents the stresses of making time for Doctor appointments, juggling the playgroup hours (which inevitably are hours that normal employers won't be happy about (9:30am - 2 pm?) all take a toll. Many people find their wives are working just to pay the babysitters and playgroups.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2013, 11:26:01 PM
I agree. The cost of living is so high, and when you factor in all the needs of just one child it just skyrockets. Clothing, Food, Schooling, etc. If a couple doesn't have two moderate/well paying jobs it can get overwhelming and if you are lucky enough to have two working parents the stresses of making time for Doctor appointments, juggling the playgroup hours (which inevitably are hours that normal employers won't be happy about (9:30am - 2 pm?) all take a toll. Many people find their wives are working just to pay the babysitters and playgroups.
The financial burden can definitely be overwhelming. And that it was just with two young kids. That really starts to multiply when they reach elementary and high school
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: asd on January 03, 2013, 11:27:11 PM
it seems to me its all about the chinuch you recieved, does anyone complain about how hard it is to keep shabbos,jkosher,etc no because you were taught your whole life that is the essence of being a jew. well my fellow jew having children is in hashkafah and halachah the same as shabbos and if you were taught that from a young age it would be much easier to deal with.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 03, 2013, 11:43:40 PM
it seems to me its all about the chinuch you recieved, does anyone complain about how hard it is to keep shabbos,jkosher,etc no because you were taught your whole life that is the essence of being a jew. well my fellow jew having children is in hashkafah and halachah the same as shabbos and if you were taught that from a young age it would be much easier to deal with.(as a side note the stiepler says every person will have in his life a certain amount of hardship and children count towards the cheshbon.if you take away the hardship of children it will be replaced with something else so you wont gain by reducing the number children you have . )
Thats all very nice but most mothers are not physically or psychologically designed to produce a child every 12 months.
If A: the mother will suffer emotionally or physically from being constantly pre or post natal or B; The mother will neglect to be able to properly care for the other babies, from last year or two years, ago due to being constantly pre or post natal then BC is a CHIYUV.
Ask a local pharmacist. a disproportional number of woman suffer from anxiety and depression. Emotionall illnes is pikuach nefesh (-igras mosheh)
"Revach bein eider laeider" is the way to go  8)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 03, 2013, 11:50:59 PM
it seems to me its all about the chinuch you recieved, does anyone complain about how hard it is to keep shabbos,jkosher,etc no because you were taught your whole life that is the essence of being a jew. well my fellow jew having children is in hashkafah and halachah the same as shabbos and if you were taught that from a young age it would be much easier to deal with.

BS. In fact your misunderstanding of our religion is part of whats causing OPs problem. Keeping Shabbos is an absolute requirement. Procreation beyond a first boy and girl is at most מצווה קיומית, like tzedaka (after the first perutta). The only difference is that the gemara says פרו ורבו overrides other mizvos because of the sevara of לשבת יצרה, however no where does it say that applies also after the first son & daughter.

OP addresses another issue, of whether having more kids is negative for them/previous kids. It is an old moral question, should blind people procreate or not. Chizkeyahu didn't want to bear children because he saw in nevuah they would be reshaim, but hashem told him:

בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך? מאי דמפקדת, איבעי לך למעבד. ומה דניחא קמיה קודשא בריך הוא, ליעביד!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Centurion on January 03, 2013, 11:51:12 PM
Thats all very nice but most mothers are not physically or psychologically designed to produce a child every 12 months.
If A: the mother will suffer emotionally or physically from being constantly pre or post natal or B; The mother will neglect to be able to properly care for the other babies, from last year or two years, ago due to being constantly pre or post natal then BC is a CHIYUV.
Ask a local pharmacist. a disproportional number of woman suffer from anxiety and depression. Emotionall illnes is pikuach nefesh (-igras mosheh)
"Revach bein eider laeider" is the way to go  8)
gemorah says every 24 months (chof daled chodesh)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: newcomer on January 03, 2013, 11:51:28 PM
Not gonna argue that having kids and raising kids is hard, but the joy in watching them explore the world and growing up is amazing.  Yes, they go thru hard times, (I've got bigger kids), we go thru hard times and it takes lots of energy and work to raise them right, but look for their smiles, and enjoy the time when they are happy and good!!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Centurion on January 03, 2013, 11:52:16 PM
BS. In fact your misunderstanding of our religion is part of whats causing OPs problem. Keeping Shabbos is an absolute requirement. Procreation beyond a first boy and girl is at most מצווה קיומית, like tzedaka (after the first perutta). The only difference is that the gemara says פרו ורבו overrides other mizvos because of the sevara of לשבת יצרה, however no where does it say that applies also after the first son & daughter.
or two of each (grandchildren as well)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 03, 2013, 11:54:52 PM
gemorah says every 24 months (chof daled chodesh)
That means 24+9 for pregnancy. If people would just stick to that life would be easier. Around here many go for one birth per year...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 12:08:34 AM
the joy in watching them explore the world and growing up is amazing.
I only have 18 months experience, but +1,000.
But it's much harder than any non-parent can imagine.  It certainly gives me a whole new appreciation for my parents and tolerance for parents with kids on a plane.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:15:59 AM
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 12:19:10 AM
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"
Good point, I find the whole discussion of the OP a little disturbing. Its one thing to discuss coping....
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Centurion on January 04, 2013, 12:20:46 AM
and ask any bonei olam / a time parent...
with all the "hardships" they thank g-d every day!!
think positive-
i saw a cute bumper sticker...
"be nice to your kids - they pick your nursing home"
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 12:22:08 AM
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 12:23:28 AM
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example
the joys of having children and the tzar are apples and oranges
I have yet to see a parent lose a child and say "oh that one he a hard one anyway"
Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: robi on January 04, 2013, 12:30:28 AM
With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.
I said exactly that, with some תורה, at my daughters kiddush, before our first anniversary. I was saying it as hakoras hatov, Bh I never had to experience that.
Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: WhyAich on January 04, 2013, 12:35:29 AM
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.

It's because you and I don't appreciate Yom Kippur, if you were counting millions you wouldn't be thinking about food.

And the first point about children not being enjoyable is IMO immature.  You want it to always be good and easy? It doesn't exist. The way to look at things and gain perspective is to look at the bigger picture.

Again, I'm not negating that one can feel overwhelmed or stressed out at times., that's normal. But to say  therefore it isn't good is not right.

(Rocking my 3 week old as I type this :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:35:53 AM
If having children is a chiyuv then why is it so unacceptable to say it's not enjoyable (at times)? Fasting on Yom Kippur is unpleasant, and no one looks at you reproachfully when you say you are feeling weak and hungry. They don't say "How could you be so ungrateful? Don't you feel spiritual?!"

There is something about the chiyuv to have children that makes people say that every moment is a joy and pure unfiltered virgin nachas.
u have a point on the chiyuv aspect but there is also a natural inclination to want children (not only in the religious world-although more so it would seem) and therefore your'e parentheses is very important many mitzvos don't seem enjoyable at times.
I recently overheard a conversation between 2 wealthier people. One was saying to the other that he has a hard giving tzedakah to "these" organizations (ie: bonei olam, A time)   bec. after the parents have the children it's just a burden on them so he feels like is placing the burden on them and what for. he said just leave it up to Hashem if He wants to give He will. (as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
But this just points to the natural inclination to have children and be osek bikiyumu shel olam . If it was just for the mitzvah then a chomesh is where the chiyuv stops. on treatments  it goes way above a chomesh.

sorry about my ramble-just some of my thoughts on the general topic-take it or leave it (or delete it ;))
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:37:13 AM
Hate to break it to you, but that's one messed up analogy.
is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO
Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: WhyAich on January 04, 2013, 12:38:18 AM
BS. In fact your misunderstanding of our religion is part of whats causing OPs problem. Keeping Shabbos is an absolute requirement. Procreation beyond a first boy and girl is at most מצווה קיומית, like tzedaka (after the first perutta). The only difference is that the gemara says פרו ורבו overrides other mizvos because of the sevara of לשבת יצרה, however no where does it say that applies also after the first son & daughter.

OP addresses another issue, of whether having more kids is negative for them/previous kids. It is an old moral question, should blind people procreate or not. Chizkeyahu didn't want to bear children because he saw in nevuah they would be reshaim, but hashem told him:

בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך? מאי דמפקדת, איבעי לך למעבד. ומה דניחא קמיה קודשא בריך הוא, ליעביד!


Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
Yup. This stuff has nothing to do with Halacha. I think this has nothing to do with the topic.

If its hard for you and you can't handle more than one kid I'm sure you can get a heter to not have 2.

This is more of a personal issue. Kids a great but they do come with challenges. Can you handle them. That's all
+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: robi on January 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
+1 I heard of people who didnt get a heter bec. they were embarrassed to ask
I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 12:43:12 AM
is it messed up be. it's extreme or bec. it isn't comarable? IYHO
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 12:45:09 AM
I may get shot down for this-
I hear people complain about life all the time as i'm sure many others do. I'm sure that those who complain would be horrified and disgusted  if asked to volunteer to die. U could could ask why not isn't life rough any way (If u think about it on a deeper level it isnt just bec. the trade off is worth. the 2 just aren't comparable) I'm fully aware that this is an extreme example

Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:49:52 AM
I call bs on that. Or at least I hope so
that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Mocha on January 04, 2013, 12:51:02 AM
I think there is a lot to be said on the issue of having kids at a young age.  And marriage as well for that matter.  My biggest concern with younger people getting married is them not even having had the time to experience the real want and need of feeling like there is something/someone missing from their lives.

With kids as well. In our circles many have kids so young they haven't even had a moment to have that feeling of wanting kids or feeling them missing from their homes/lives.
This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: robi on January 04, 2013, 12:51:47 AM
that they were embarrassed or that they could have gotten a heter
On the embarrassed part- welcome to the world- many men wont ask and women even more so if u have a comfortable relationship with your Rav consider yourself blessed

On the heter part check R' Moshe's, R' Moshe Shternbuch's and the Minchas Yitzchok's teshuvos on these matters.(I don't have the exact sources right now but shouldn't be hard to find. Hebrewbooks etc.) All these great Poskim have Heterim for diff. sit. other than strictly life threatening.

and as always AYLOR
that they were embarrassed AND THEREFORE didn't ask. Poor child. Poor people
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: george on January 04, 2013, 12:52:06 AM
Aint no question 'bout it - kids can be difficult. But the attitude of OP and some others here begs the question, have you contemplated anything other than your own selfish comfort? What about your child?!?! This is a huge problem I see nowadays with parents: parents act as if children are there to make them (the parents) happy, satisfied, shep nachas. No! That's not the point of children! The point of children is to raise them to be decent, productive human beings and servants of their Creator. Its not about you!! Nachas is a wonderful byproduct that you hope to enjoy. But these attitudes turn nachas into a the whole goal. This can be EXTREMELY bad for the child. Any parent who thinks about this honestly will have to agree. We must RESPECT our children as human beings who have their own unique needs (and perhaps their own opinions that need to be given the time of day). We cannot treat them as nachas machines. If it will satisfy me more for my child to do x or go to school y etc. do we think for a moment, Is that the best thing for the child? He's a person also!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:54:46 AM
Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
as is well known many deaths ostensibly dont involve suffering sayaf or lethal injection.
but what about the child analogy (the suffering there was that s/o lost a child but if raising them is a pain why the suffering)

again, I do do understand that these analogies are extreme
(if the mashal were the same as the nimshal it wouldnt be a mashal)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 12:55:06 AM
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.


In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 12:58:25 AM
This is a really great post.

After waiting a couple of years after our marriage and then having my little girl, I cannot tell you how happy I am to spend whatever time I can with her. And her waking me up at nights barely bother me because I think about all the happiness she gives to me.
(as an aside it is also true that things that come with a lot of effort are generally appreciated more)
slightly diff. situation, but I share your feelings 110%
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:00:20 AM
Both.
OP is complaining about having child rearing thrust upon him before he was ready due to "community standards" and that he can't even bring up the topic in public without being shamed.
I applaud him for having the cojones to admit to that.  Not everyone is mature enough to be a parent at 18-23 years old and absolutely nothing is being done to prepare them.

What in the world does that have to do with you never hearing of a parent who was happy to lose a child G-d forbid because they were too hard?!?!?

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:00:33 AM
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
I'll add a +1 to that.  We can and should do a better job preparing 18-23 year olds to be better parents and have a better perspective on child-rearing and the stress that pregnancy and having a child can cause to a marriage.

To bury our heads in the ground on divorce stats and say that people should just learn to suck it up is missing the bigger picture.  The stress of being newly married with kids does in many a marriage and yes the kids do suffer the most.  But we are great as a community on burying our heads in the ground.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:01:12 AM

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
Jewish education taught you how to be a good father and share responsibilities with your spouse?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 01:01:31 AM
In brief, lots of preparation goes into preparing to get married. Mashgichim will help guys decide when they are ready to marry, every date is disected, Chosson Kallah classes are taken. As well they should. Marriage is a very big change and preparation is called for. However being a parent is a much bigger change. Your spouse can take care of themself; your baby cannot. But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
+100
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: robi on January 04, 2013, 01:06:27 AM
But no one questions your ability or skills relating to having a child, and there is barely ever a discussion of giving time to get adjusted to marriage before hopping on the parenthood train. Maybe some changes are in order.

That's all folks.
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:07:41 AM
-1 that's exactly how rabbi jacobs in BMG starts his freezer opening shmuess. And he expounds on it.
Care to expound?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 01:07:46 AM

prepare? What are twenty years of jewish education for? At minimun one should have the right perspective, life's not a vacation or a picnic its a being rewarded for facing challanges.
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:09:17 AM
knowing that life has it's challenges doesn't teach u how to parent (physically, mentally or hashkaficlly)
learning what those challenges might be, how to possibly deal with them and great role models (a heavy dose of common sense also never hurt) will prepare somewhat
My chosson rebbe/mentor  (who is IMHO a great mechanech) did a follow up on his own after having our child on some chinuch pointers even for babies
Bingo.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:15:34 AM
Jewish education taught you how to be a good father and share responsibilities with your spouse?
They sure tried.. ;) There is definitely room to improve in the teaching of good midos in our schools. A proper perspective on life and decent bein odom lechaveiro traits are vital ingredients to a good marriage with young kids. These are part of the curriculum no? I do recommend chinuch classes though, but these are for bigger kids not babies.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: robi on January 04, 2013, 01:16:08 AM
Care to expound?
I was disagreeing with the first part. He basically challenges you to ask yourself why you want to get married, if you realize  that marriage is not just Lala land, and that even if you think you're ready for marriage, are you ready for children? Do you know your responsible for their chinuch? Do you know they can and will be hard? Etc...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:19:33 AM
Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.
Gosh..So many things wrong with this one.
I hope you get through your hardships though
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 04, 2013, 01:22:42 AM
They sure tried.. ;) There is definitely room to improve in the teaching of good midos in our schools. A proper perspective on life and decent bein odom lechaveiro traits are vital ingredients to a good marriage with young kids. These are part of the curriculum no? I do recommend chinuch classes though, but these are for bigger kids not babies.
there are chinuch classes for babies/toddlers too.
One of the things in follow up was when to discipline a baby/toddler and what to be mechanech them in
in regards infants a lot of it is about not being selfish
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:24:11 AM
I was disagreeing with the first part. He basically challenges you to ask yourself why you want to get married, if you realize  that marriage is not just Lala land, and that even if you think you're ready for marriage, are you ready for children? Do you know your responsible for their chinuch? Do you know they can and will be hard? Etc...
Interesting.
Chabad Rabbis want the opposite though even with 8 years in "the system" the topic of marriage and child-rearing was not mentioned once.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18596&alias=rabbis-urge-to-marry-young
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:24:49 AM
there are chinuch classes for babies/toddlers too.
One of the things in follow up was when to discipline a baby/toddler and what to be mechanech them in
in regards infants a lot of it is about not being selfish

When they stick their fingers in the electric socket is all
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:26:58 AM
Interesting.
Chabad Rabbis want the opposite though even with 8 years in "the system" the topic of marriage and child-rearing was not mentioned once.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=18596&alias=rabbis-urge-to-marry-young
Remember the mishna says 18 yo. I know it doesnt fit into the american mentality where 30 year olds act like toddlers...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2013, 01:28:57 AM
"The generation has changed," he said in an interview. "It's not like it once was. Today, the less one 'roams around' - the better,
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 01:30:55 AM
Remember the mishna says 18 yo. I know it doesnt fit into the american mentality where 30 year olds act like toddlers...
And Rivkah got married at 3.  Some things change...

The real reason why people get married early though isn't usually because they want to but because "the good ones will be gone" coupled with that if they wait then people will wonder what's wrong with them.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 01:38:34 AM
Don't forget, just because someone is supposed to be prepared for parenthood doesn't mean they are. So if I say "wait a minute I may be 22 but I'm not sure I have the tools for this" would a legitimate answer be "sorry you were supposed to have matured by now"?

People need guidance commensurate with where they are, not with where they are supposed to be.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MnM1130 on January 04, 2013, 02:48:15 AM
(sorry its long)
wow.. love this thread. to bad i was busy enjoying disney world with my almost 3 yr old son. But i have so much to say from a woman's point of view- who didnt get married VERY young (22) and came from a big family (11) that having a child- let alone children, is most def the hardest thing a human can ever do, AND are most def the least prepared about. And for a woman it starts long before the cute little furry thing pops out. I do feel that many many couples now (in my circles at least) had one child soon after marriage and than took a long break b4 the next because it was something they were so scarred about they couldnt comprehend doing it again (ever) so fast. It took me physically and mentally 2 years to even think ill even want to have more children. It was so bad to the point when i saw pregnant woman my heart went out to them, and i said im never doing that again. But i do feel that now my son is just about 3- im a mother. And a mothers job is to have children and give up herself for them. And it doesnt happen to everyone as soon as they have a baby, some people it takes a few years to realize life isnt about being selfish. And at that point it makes it possible to continue to have more children because your mind set is in a completely different place than a 20 year old mindset who just wants to have fun. There are still very many mornings when i just cant pull myself outta bed at 7am (ya for me thats still early im just about getting out of teenager mode) for my son who wants to eat breakfast. But im learning that this is my love, hes a part of me, and i need to make sure im doing the best to my ability to make sure hes comfortable and smiling. And now instead of complaining i ask advice on things i just dont feel im doing just right- and people have such amazing ideas of better ways of coping. But i do also realize i would have never come to this place if i wudda popped out 3-4 kids in 4 years. and i would most probably be a mess and non functioning. And i come from a family of 11 as mentioned- so not like i ever thought it would be a picnic. BUT i NEVER imagined this. And a side note- however hard it is for all u men- think about ur wives who go thru pregnancy- and on top of that with another baby and on top of that WORKING a JOB!!! I also feel like there is a lack of hands on chinuch teachings to go around, and i feel that todays society really screwed up what a jewish family should be.. how many people here feel that their houses would be a better place if we didnt have facebook, or DD to show and compare all of our perfect little lives with the world... I know that the times i get into a fight with my husband it always stemmed to something i saw on FB that so and so looks so happy always why cant we be like that. Media killed society. And thats why people have such a hard time with becoming parents because everything is so on the open, nothing is private anymore- and we need to be taught everything. Mothers should be home washing laundry in the river- and men should be out plowing fields- noone will have chinuch problems anymore.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 04, 2013, 03:44:26 AM
I am following this thread and for the first time am lost for words. I will just say that it seems that many are getting married before they are ready.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 03:47:55 AM
I am following this thread and for the first time am lost for words. I will just say that it seems that many are getting married before they are ready.
I agree, but part of the picture is that parents take a greater involvement in married kids lives (although that may also be a problem).

Many newly wed couples are supported by their parents.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 03:48:51 AM
I am following this thread and for the first time am lost for words. I will just say that it seems that many are getting married before they are ready.
No surprise there.  There's societal pressure to date briefly, and get married and have kids early.
The real reason why people get married early though isn't usually because they want to but because "the good ones will be gone" coupled with that if they wait then people will wonder what's wrong with them.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 03:49:23 AM
Many newly wed couples are supported by their parents.
Depends on the sect.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 04, 2013, 06:52:33 AM
I know that the times i get into a fight with my husband it always stemmed to something i saw on FB that so and so looks so happy always why cant we be like that.
WTH :-X
There's societal pressure to get married and have kids early.
???  Halacha?!

Dan, maybe you can get Rabbi Chaikin to chime in on this thread ;D
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 07:06:07 AM
Halacha?!
There is a very big difference between halacha and hanahaga
Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 04, 2013, 07:13:27 AM
There is a very big difference between halacha and hanahaga
Hanhaga sanctioned by halacha?
Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
Hanhaga sanctioned by halacha?
There is no halacha to get married young, or to procreate beyond 1 son and 1 daughter.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 04, 2013, 08:17:42 AM
There is no halacha to get married young, or to procreate beyond 1 son and 1 daughter.
I guess 20 (the halachic "deadline" ) is not young in your books.
Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 04, 2013, 08:21:42 AM
There isn't an Halacha, But there is a Mitzva of Sheves

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 04, 2013, 08:27:31 AM
I am following this thread and for the first time am lost for words. I will just say that it seems that many are getting married before they are ready.
From an outsider it gotta look like that. But typically we are all running happy health lives.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 08:33:06 AM
I guess 20 (the halachic "deadline" ) is not young in your books.
Thats not halacha.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 04, 2013, 08:43:34 AM
Thats not halacha.
Yes it is, explicitly in Shu"a Evh"a siman alef.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 08:57:03 AM
Yes it is, explicitly in Shu"a Evh"a siman alef.
Halacha is something one is absolutely required to do, either because G-d commanded or because chazal commanded. Beis Din force one to do anything he is halchically required to.

Getting married before 20 is a guideline set forth by chazal, beis din aren't kofe someone to do that
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 04, 2013, 09:00:27 AM
Everyone's talking about not being selfish and just giving yourselves over to your kids... It's in the kids best interest to have sane, functioning parents. For some ppl, they would be better off giving proper attention to a smaller number of children than popping them out by the dozens.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 09:03:24 AM
Everyone's talking about not being selfish and just giving yourselves over to your kids... It's in the kids best interest to have sane, functioning parents. For some ppl, they would be better off giving proper attention to a smaller number of children than popping them out by the dozens.

בהדי כבשי דרחמנא למה לך? מאי דמפקדת, איבעי לך למעבד. ומה דניחא קמיה קודשא בריך הוא, ליעביד!


Not saying it applies here but food for thought.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 04, 2013, 09:07:20 AM
Not saying it applies here but food for thought.
Well seeing that the source of that quote is to someone who didn't want to have kids, I would say it's appropriate, though every case should be dealt with on its own merits with a CLOR.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 04, 2013, 09:15:03 AM
Everyone's talking about not being selfish and just giving yourselves over to your kids... It's in the kids best interest to have sane, functioning parents. For some ppl, they would be better off giving proper attention to a smaller number of children than popping them out by the dozens.

2 separate issues.


1. People having too many kids they can't take care of properly (whether financially, physically, emotionally) .


2.  Raising children is hard.
Many aren't as prepared as they could be for what it entails. And even though it may seem like everyone else is doing it just fine, no problems, that isn't true.
It's hard. Just a fact. Not a bad one. Just a truth.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: puddles on January 04, 2013, 09:16:19 AM
I agree. The cost of living is so high, and when you factor in all the needs of just one child it just skyrockets. Clothing, Food, Schooling, etc. If a couple doesn't have two moderate/well paying jobs it can get overwhelming and if you are lucky enough to have two working parents the stresses of making time for Doctor appointments, juggling the playgroup hours (which inevitably are hours that normal employers won't be happy about (9:30am - 2 pm?) all take a toll. Many people find their wives are working just to pay the babysitters and playgroups.
+100. Seriously, what is up with these playgroups? Dont they know people work after 2?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 04, 2013, 09:17:21 AM
Well seeing that the source of that quote is to someone who didn't want to have kids, I would say it's appropriate, though every case should be dealt with on its own merits with a CLOR.
Not saying it applies here but food for thought.

You can't draw a rule from one example. In addition he didn't want to have any kids... To want to give your kids the attention they need (and every situation is unique both for the parents and the children) is a completely different situation.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 04, 2013, 09:20:49 AM
2 separate issues.


1. People having too many kids they can't take care of properly (whether financially, physically, emotionally) .


2.  Raising children is hard.
Many aren't as prepared as they could be for what it entails. And even though it may seem like everyone else is doing it just fine, no problems, that isn't true.
It's hard. Just a fact. Not a bad one. Just a truth.

Good point. However #2 can lead to #1. If its too difficult then it may be worthwhile too limit the #of kids. Eth in life is difficult, each person has to use his/her judgment to know whether they are doing what's ultimately best for their family... And yes that may include having fun and other "selfish" things.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 04, 2013, 09:21:51 AM

It's hard. Just a fact. Not a bad one. Just a truth.
=1 i think that's what it basically boils down too. hardships aren't what make people miserable, its hardships that you weren't expecting. Our great grandparents had hardships enormously greater than ours (imagine a life with no DDF :P ) yet on average they were no less happy than us. As long as you're prepared and know what you are headed for the trip can and should be extremely rewarding. hard, stressful at times but rewarding.

On a side note, JEM recently put out a video with the Rebbe's view on BC (called "The Greatest Blessing") I watched it with my wife, and I think is a must for every Lubavitch (or other) couple.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 04, 2013, 09:22:55 AM
You can't draw a rule from one example. In addition he didn't want to have any kids... To want to give your kids the attention they need (and every situation is unique both for the parents and the children) is a completely different situation.
That's why I said every case is different and should be discussed on its own merits. however I do know that that quote is often used in the reasoning of a Psak.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 04, 2013, 09:26:54 AM
From an outsider it gotta look like that. But typically we are all running happy health lives.
Sometimes the outsider has a better understanding about what is going on than the person involved.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 04, 2013, 09:30:44 AM
Halacha is something one is absolutely required to do, either because G-d commanded or because chazal commanded. Beis Din force one to do anything he is halchically required to.

Getting married before 20 is a guideline set forth by chazal, beis din aren't kofe someone to do that
Who ever said anything about beis din being kofeh anyone?
This is a halachik obligation, end of story.  Where do these other mayses and pshetlach ("hanhogo"/beis din kofin) come in?
Beis din is not "kofin" you to lay tefilin or shake lulav either, yet IIRC it's an obligation.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 04, 2013, 09:34:32 AM
Good point. However #2 can lead to #1. If its too difficult then it may be worthwhile too limit the #of kids. Eth in life is difficult, each person has to use his/her judgment to know whether they are doing what's ultimately best for their family... And yes that may include having fun and other "selfish" things.


Let's assume that the general feeling in the forums is that
1. Raising children is a lot harder than expected.
2. Having children IS indeed very fulfilling and one of life's greatest joys.



   I think the OP was just bringing up point number 1 and the idea that people don't necessarily talk about how hard it is, especially with your first child and all the changes it brings to your life.


And let's assume that most of us here will be having children at a younger age than most in society.  That definitely effects the challenges of having children as well.



As for topics of having too many kids, or feeling pressured into having kids when you don't want to- that is a different story.
I know plenty of people who are pressured into having more kids just to "keep up with the Cohen's" -
 
And plenty of people who have kids one after the other because they believe it is the right thing to do.

One of my good friends grew up in a house of 13 where they never had enough to eat, never had money for clothes when needed and never got the attention they deserved.  He was one of the older kids and totally came to resent his parents for it. (Btw, I know plenty of people who grew up in houses with 13 kids and were loved and cared for so I am not knocking large families.) There are people like this in every community. But again, this is a slightly different topic then just talking about points 1 and 2.


Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 04, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
One point I would like to mention.
We seem to be confused here, we're discussing 2 separate things in one shot.
1. Having children young,
2. Having children too close each other.

Issue #2 is indeed a problem, our girl is 18 months and no, we're not yet ready for another one.
To the member who said people are not embarrassed to ask their LOR for a heter: sorry, but you have no idea what's going on on your planet.
But re issue #1, it all depends on your feelings and willingness. I understand some fellows here are like 'fly or die', they feel restricted when they can not fly around the world and have fun like without kids, but that's what I consider either selfish or amateur.
Sorry if I offended anyone.

ETA: to include a point to issue #1:
Working mothers:
You have no idea what you're missing.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 09:48:55 AM
I know that the times i get into a fight with my husband it always stemmed to something i saw on FB that so and so looks so happy always why cant we be like that.



WTH :-X???


This is a Major, Major problem today. It is called Facebook Depression and if you can't relate or understand it you probably don't use social media too much. People spend all day staring at photos of their friend's amazing lives, vacations, parties, large circles of loving friends and families, and they think of how sad and lonely they themselves are. It really affects them. Of course they are only seeing the 5% of their friend's life that gets posted online. And to compete they do the same thing. And their friend sees that and posts even more glamorous stuff. It's cyclical and everyone feels the same but they are all so busy trying to impress the next guy with how awesome they have it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
Once you have a child, you don't think so negatively about childrern. period.

...and this is the attitude that makes people ashamed to say they aren't coping well with parenthood. Thanks for illustrating it for everyone. Suffer in silence because you are supposed to feel differently about your child.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 04, 2013, 09:54:15 AM
In reading all the posts I see one thing in common behind the complaints; Jealousy!

Jealousy is something that creeps up in a marriage, when raising kids etc. You have a young guy, he sees his friend got married and seems to be having a blast. He went on a honeymoon, is getting supported by parents in-laws, has a nice apartment, car, clothes, a pretty wife who cooks for him, cleans up after him etc. He is jealous and wants to get married, he doesn't necessarily realize that is why he wants it. He thinks he is ready to commit to being a spouse and in the near future a father. 

He wakes up after 7 Berachos and realizes that its not all fun and games. There is work for him to do as well. His wife may have a job ad be unable to go on a long honeymoon, his parents/in-laws may be unable to help him financially. His apartment may not be as nice, or car as new and fancy. His wife may be too tired after a full days work to cook lavish meals and keep a spotless house. He then hears about all the vacations others are going on, and gets more jealous. This leads to extreme unhappiness. They then realize that they are expecting a child. If they are unhappy in their own lives, there is no way for them to be happy as parents.

Instead of looking at what others have or don't have. Look at yourselves and try and be happy with your lot. I think this rings rue for married people, single people, parents, and people who haven't yet been blessed with children. Its not always easy, but it is very liberating. Don't  do things because of what others do, or will say and think. Getting married, having children is a choice (albeit a Mitzva as well) someone who hasn't had children or gotten married is in no ways a lesser Jew or person then others who have.

Be the best that YOU can be. Be as happy as YOU can in your situation. Make the choices that are right for YOU. Learn how to be happy for someone else without instantly wanting that for yourself.

If you have trouble or negative feelings, talk to someone. Your spouse, parent, friend, Rebbe, Rav, teacher, therapist, barber, shaitel macher etc. Just talking makes you feel better. I don't think an online forum is the right place to discuss such sensitive and prevalent matters.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 04, 2013, 09:58:46 AM
One point I would like to mention.
We seem to be confused here, we're discussing 2 separate things in one shot.
1. Having children young
2. Having children too close each other
I was gonna say something similar, that really these 2 points are 2 totally different topics.

(@meshugener - I really agree with you that people are too embarrassed to ask LOR for heters, at least that what it seems in Lakewood.)

I dont think anyone could argue at the fact that having children at the age 0f 20-25 is a somewhat young age, we could still be (are) somewhat immature.
I am trying to figure out what the OP point is. Is he just trying to let out his personal frustration? - That our chinuch system never prepared him for the fact that having children is not easy.

I would add, as difficult as having children is, and as stressful as it could be, I think it really is the biggest Bracha, and the happiest thing to have a child. What better than walking into your house, and have your child run up to you with a smile on their facer, yelling Totty, and give you a big hug?

+1 MosheP
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: bubkiz on January 04, 2013, 10:01:22 AM
In reading all the posts I see one thing in common behind the complaints; Jealousy!

Jealousy is something that creeps up in a marriage, when raising kids etc. You have a young guy, he sees his friend got married and seems to be having a blast. He went on a honeymoon, is getting supported by parents in-laws, has a nice apartment, car, clothes, a pretty wife who cooks for him, cleans up after him etc. He is jealous and wants to get married, he doesn't necessarily realize that is why he wants it. He thinks he is ready to commit to being a spouse and in the near future a father. 

He wakes up after 7 Berachos and realizes that its not all fun and games. There is work for him to do as well. His wife may have a job ad be unable to go on a long honeymoon, his parents/in-laws may be unable to help him financially. His apartment may not be as nice, or car as new and fancy. His wife may be too tired after a full days work to cook lavish meals and keep a spotless house. He then hears about all the vacations others are going on, and gets more jealous. This leads to extreme unhappiness. They then realize that they are expecting a child. If they are unhappy in their own lives, there is no way for them to be happy as parents.

Instead of looking at what others have or don't have. Look at yourselves and try and be happy with your lot. I think this rings rue for married people, single people, parents, and people who haven't yet been blessed with children. Its not always easy, but it is very liberating. Don't  do things because of what others do, or will say and think. Getting married, having children is a choice (albeit a Mitzva as well) someone who hasn't had children or gotten married is in no ways a lesser Jew or person then others who have.

Be the best that YOU can be. Be as happy as YOU can in your situation. Make the choices that are right for YOU. Learn how to be happy for someone else without instantly wanting that for yourself.

If you have trouble or negative feelings, talk to someone. Your spouse, parent, friend, Rebbe, Rav, teacher, therapist, barber, shaitel macher etc. Just talking makes you feel better. I don't think an online forum is the right place to discuss such sensitive and prevalent matters.
+1.
Very well said.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 04, 2013, 12:02:33 PM
What better than walking into your house, and have your child run up to you with a smile on their facer, yelling Totty, and give you a big hug?
That is a Kodak moment. You haven’t seen anything yet. Wait till they get older.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 04, 2013, 12:04:36 PM
That is a Kodak moment. You haven’t seen anything yet. Wait till they get older.

Are you implying it gets better? Or that these moments are few and far between?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 04, 2013, 12:05:04 PM

I am trying to figure out what the OP point is. Is he just trying to let out his personal frustration?
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 04, 2013, 12:26:09 PM
Are you implying it gets better?
That would be an understatement.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 04, 2013, 12:28:17 PM
That would be an understatement.

+1,000
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 04, 2013, 12:35:21 PM
Are you implying it gets better?
That would be an understatement.
The best being of course when they bring in the grandchildren; All the Nachas without the 4am burping marathons :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: WhyAich on January 04, 2013, 12:38:59 PM
Everyone agrees that children will give you the most Nachas (sorry, not translateable), the question is:
1. Are you interested (meaning willing to) invest
2. How many can you handle

another point connected to this is:

You're suffering now (if you are) but you don't know what return of investment you'll get in the future. It's a very important point. We are just looking at the now and here. "it's hard, i can't sleep, apy for their clothing tuition etc., deal with thier tantrums.... but you have to see what you'll get back later.

think of it like any dealings you have in life, the greater the risk, work and investment, the greater the return. Many people don't want to risk, or do scary things, but they they have to live with the consequences, no return.

so in 2 (or a few) words: you invest, you get a return, you don't, and you wont :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 01:11:41 PM
Does anyone else on this forum know a couple who got divorced after a short marriage and left behind a single mother taking care of a child (or two), or am I the only one?

If so what does it say to you?

Is this not a heartbreaking situation that could easily be made about 99% less awful if some birth control had been strategically used?

(I personally know 4 that I can think of offhand)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 04, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
Does anyone else on this forum know a couple who got divorced after a short marriage and left behind a single mother taking care of a child (or two), or am I the only one?


I know a few.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 04, 2013, 01:29:30 PM
Does anyone else on this forum know a couple who got divorced after a short marriage and left behind a single mother taking care of a child (or two), or am I the only one?

I'm sure just about everyone here knows of unfortunate situations such as single parents.

If so what does it say to you?
It is very very sad, and might have been able to be avoided.

Is this not a heartbreaking situation that could easily be made about 99% less awful if some birth control had been strategically used?

Heartbreaking indeed. In many cases birth control should have been used. especially if there were circumstances that may have indicated a low success rate for the marriage. Perhaps ask the single mom if she would prefer not having her children. I am sure that they would say certainly  not!

Would you say that in an instance where someone dies young and leaves over a family, they should have not had children? No way!

I agree that couples who are unhappy together should wait before having a child/ additional children. However, not for the parents sake. Purely for the sake of the children.
(I personally know 4 that I can think of offhand)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 04, 2013, 01:33:44 PM

Would you say that in an instance where someone dies young and leaves over a family, they should have not had children? No way!


No comparison.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ganizzy on January 04, 2013, 01:35:38 PM
Does anyone else on this forum know a couple who got divorced after a short marriage and left behind a single mother taking care of a child (or two), or am I the only one?

If so what does it say to you?

Is this not a heartbreaking situation that could easily be made about 99% less awful if some birth control had been strategically used?

(I personally know 4 that I can think of offhand)

you dont know why their marriage broke up.
i know of some single mothers that are happy that at least they got a child out of their bad marriage. they figure that thats why they had to go thru it in the first place.
of course u also have other perspectives.
im not saying people (especially those with marriage problems) shouldnt use bc, im just pointing out another view.

to be honest Yehudah s, u sound bitter rather then stressed.
i think we should have alot more preparation for other things as well but that makes me annoyed or stressed, not bitter and hating the situation.
i think its alot about attitude. yes it would be nice to have a heads up about child rearing, yes it would be nice if we had easy pregnancies, calm beautiful children that slept thru the night at 3 weeks old. and then never had a fight with their sibling. but thats prob not gonna happen.
so if u take an attitude of - man this is harder then i thought but i am already here so let me make the best of it. speak to people "in the know", get some tips and good ideas. try to create happy moments as a family. get a babysitter and go out with ur spouse at least twice a month. enjoy the nachas moments as they come. enjoy the brilliant things they say and do. talk to a friend to "let out" about the annoying things they do.

sometimes we can get really frustrated with our kids and we can think of 10 things they did wrong. on a good day do u also stop to think of 10 good things about them?

my hardest kid is also the brightest, the most talented and (sometimes) the most helpful. so when she starts acting up i have to take a mindset of how do i deal with this situation to calm her down, have her get back to her tzadekes mode. or at mimimum at least not make a bad situation worse by screaming, shouting and being negative.
if i just think, this is so hard and stressful, im 25 and shouldnt have to deal with this, i havent taken a vacation in 2 years bec of my kids.... then theres no way the situation wont go even more downhill.

so bottom line is - yes, kids are not easy to raise. yes there should be classes, awareness BEFORE we have kids, but we can still be happy with the children we have and try to find the positive.

cmon, who doesnt like being woken up at 6 am with ut 5 yr old crawling into ur bed adn saying I love u Mammy  :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MosheP on January 04, 2013, 01:45:32 PM
No comparison.

The comparison is that they are both ridiculous.

It is horrible for the child to be in a home without a father, and with a mother that went through a divorce. And  maybe they should have not had children for the child's sake. It is ridiculous to say that a couple should have never had children because the mother is now stuck with kids. I would even venture to say that any mother that feels that way should have never been awarded custody!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 04, 2013, 02:06:11 PM
No way to compare to a child torn apart between 2 parents who hate each other.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 04, 2013, 02:20:42 PM
@OP

1. Who said hardship and blessing are mutually exclusive.
2. Your entire childhood life was training for parenthood, how may children can be heard saying "when I will be big..." or "when I will be a tatty/mommy..."
3. This is a deals site, why is the perfect place to discuss this?
4. You now have a child, do the best you can (within your abilities) for her. If you're not sure you can handle any more, consult your LOR.
5. For your own mental health, focus on the things about your daughter that make you happy/proud etc.
6. BH you don't know how tragic it is for people who don't have children. Just like they don't know what your child-rearing difficulties are, so too you don't know theirs.

Chizkyahu.

An that was when he knew his descendants would be wicked, and G-d told him that isn't his problem and he must have children anyway (or he will die).

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 04, 2013, 03:26:08 PM
1. Who said hardship and blessing are mutually exclusive.
No one thinks this.
2. Your entire childhood life was training for parenthood, how may children can be heard saying "when I will be big..." or "when I will be a tatty/mommy..."
I used to say "When I will be an astronaut.."
I am not prepared to be an astronaut.
3. This is a deals site, why is the perfect place to discuss this?
Seriously? This Forum is entitled: Just Schmooze:kick back and talk about anything. It also happens to be populated by frum Jews who share many of my experiences. Why don't you ask this in the thread about interesting videos or funny jokes?
4. You now have a child, do the best you can (within your abilities) for her. If you're not sure you can handle any more, consult your LOR.
I will carry this advice with me always.
5. For your own mental health, focus on the things about your daughter that make you happy/proud etc.
I already do. Several people suggested that I am merely venting or bitter even as I have reiterated that my concern is largely for the children being raised my incompetent parents. most parents will be ok, it's their children who will suffer. The events of the first few years of life are what defines a person's entire life.
6. BH you don't know how tragic it is for people who don't have children. Just like they don't know what your child-rearing difficulties are, so too you don't know theirs.
Exactly. So let's all stop pretending that it is always cushy and bubbling over with pride and nachas. That just makes them feel worse.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 04, 2013, 04:13:57 PM
Who ever said anything about beis din being kofeh anyone?
This is a halachik obligation, end of story.  Where do these other mayses and pshetlach ("hanhogo"/beis din kofin) come in?
Beis din is not "kofin" you to lay tefilin or shake lulav either, yet IIRC it's an obligation.
Beis din are kofe to lay tefillin & shake lulav.

Some BS here but he quotes the Gemara & Rambam that paskens it http://www.daat.ac.il/mishpat-ivri/skirot/311-2.htm

Iif you really don't understand the difference between the chiyuv to keep the shabbos & the din to get married by 20 you have a really big problem.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2013, 05:28:17 PM
Does anyone else on this forum know a couple who got divorced after a short marriage and left behind a single mother taking care of a child (or two), or am I the only one?

If so what does it say to you?

Is this not a heartbreaking situation that could easily be made about 99% less awful if some birth control had been strategically used?

(I personally know 4 that I can think of offhand)
I'm sure we all know of such couples.
Which is exactly why you can get a heter these days even before having any kids. 

The truth is that in shidduch dating you really don't know much about the person other than if they are able to put on a nice show/facade for a couple weeks.  Thus we try to learn as much as possible before even dating and talk for hours to see if there's compatibility, but more than that is in the hands of Gd.
You probably won't really get to know the person until after you've lived with them.

The incredible thing is that our divorce rate is still lower than the general public, though that can be attributed to stigma just as easily as it can be attributed to having the same general goals in life and the shidduch system working.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Jkhein on January 05, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
@OP

3. This is a deals site, why is the perfect place to discuss this?
Disagree. Just shmooze, is the right place for this to be posted. If anyone ever needs a vort of chizuk, advice, or similar, they should feel comfortable to post it here.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on January 05, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
At first my thought was to agree with meshuganer. There is NO WAY it is possible for a parent to make a post like that. Not because of some God run mafia, or Rumpelstiltskinain threats, it just not some thing that a stable parent thinks.

But after seeing posts like this
...and this is the attitude that makes people ashamed to say they aren't coping well with parenthood. Thanks for illustrating it for everyone. Suffer in silence because you are supposed to feel differently about your child.

And this!?
Uh most people view death as the ultimate suffering. So why would they want to exchange pain for super pain? If people were absolutely certain of a happier life after death I think a lot of them would be lining up. As it is there are lots of suicides.

Seriously, if the OP a) doesn't believe there is a better life to come, and b) Is ready to commit suicide if he believed such a thing, well then he is way beyond the help of a forum, and critically needs immediate therapy and assistance. I would say his kid's life is in danger, both spiritually and physically, as this is a deeply disturbed attitude manifested by the kinds of parents that dump their kids in garbage cans. Something that a parent can't begin to comprehend, but people snap.

If anyone knows the OP personally they should try to make sure he gets professional help. This really sounds like pikuach nefesh.

We have to stop obfuscating the true issue at hand with discussions of coping and hardships, as clearly this isn't the root of the issue. We should be focusing on the need for the OP to get professional help

(HT MosheP for really hitting it out of the park in some posts)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Jkhein on January 05, 2013, 05:01:40 PM
why the need to bash the OP? he does need help, but he is discussing an issue that we should help him with too, and share our experiences and how he can try to get helped too.
He plucked up his courage and decided to post - let's help him. (he definitely needs proffesional help too.)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on January 05, 2013, 05:22:18 PM
why the need to bash the OP? he does need help, but he is discussing an issue that we should help him with too, and share our experiences and how he can try to get helped too.
He plucked up his courage and decided to post - let's help him. (he definitely needs proffesional help too.)
My point is this is way beyond the scope of a forum debate. If you want to help we can offer funds if he can't afford professional help, but that's about all
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 05:42:14 PM
If anyone knows the OP personally they should try to make sure he gets professional help.
Let’s also include the community he comes from to get help also.  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 05, 2013, 07:09:46 PM
At first my thought was to agree with meshuganer. There is NO WAY it is possible for a parent to make a post like that. Not because of some God run mafia, or Rumpelstiltskinain threats, it just not some thing that a stable parent thinks.

But after seeing posts like this
And this!?
Seriously, if the OP a) doesn't believe there is a better life to come, and b) Is ready to commit suicide if he believed such a thing, well then he is way beyond the help of a forum, and critically needs immediate therapy and assistance. I would say his kid's life is in danger, both spiritually and physically, as this is a deeply disturbed attitude manifested by the kinds of parents that dump their kids in garbage cans. Something that a parent can't begin to comprehend, but people snap.

If anyone knows the OP personally they should try to make sure he gets professional help. This really sounds like pikuach nefesh.

We have to stop obfuscating the true issue at hand with discussions of coping and hardships, as clearly this isn't the root of the issue. We should be focusing on the need for the OP to get professional help

(HT MosheP for really hitting it out of the park in some posts)
I agree, somethings off
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 05, 2013, 07:12:48 PM
Second kid throwing up in three nights. Gross
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: DrDanny on January 05, 2013, 07:16:12 PM
At first my thought was to agree with meshuganer. There is NO WAY it is possible for a parent to make a post like that. Not because of some God run mafia, or Rumpelstiltskinain threats, it just not some thing that a stable parent thinks.

But after seeing posts like this
And this!?
Seriously, if the OP a) doesn't believe there is a better life to come, and b) Is ready to commit suicide if he believed such a thing, well then he is way beyond the help of a forum, and critically needs immediate therapy and assistance. I would say his kid's life is in danger, both spiritually and physically, as this is a deeply disturbed attitude manifested by the kinds of parents that dump their kids in garbage cans.
I'm gonna say you took that several steps to far
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2013, 08:19:37 PM
OP can clearly use counseling, but I don't see why we can't discuss some of the issues at play here in a civilized manner.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2013, 08:20:58 PM
That is a Kodak moment. You haven’t seen anything yet. Wait till they get older.
I dunno, I can't really imagine a better moment that seeing the huge smile on my son's face after coming home from a trip.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: creditor on January 05, 2013, 08:24:57 PM
My point is this is way beyond the scope of a forum debate. If you want to help we can offer funds if he can't afford professional help, but that's about all
+100
I was thinking the exact same.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 08:27:02 PM
I dunno, I can't really imagine a better moment that seeing the huge smile on my son's face after coming home from a trip.
How about your son coming home from serving overseas and your street lined with friends and family welcoming him home and thanking him for his service?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 05, 2013, 08:30:26 PM
I used to say "When I will be an astronaut.."
I am not prepared to be an astronaut.Seriously?

You're born not knowing anything. Growing up is a chance to learn what a home is supposed to be like. If someone's parents didn't teach them (properly), it's incumbent upon them (as adults) to learn this on their own.

This Forum is entitled: Just Schmooze:kick back and talk about anything. It also happens to be populated by frum Jews who share many of my experiences. Why don't you ask this in the thread about interesting videos or funny jokes?

C'mon, are you comparing the responsibility of raising children to funny videos or jokes?

You have a responsibility, albeit a hard one. There are online forums devoted to parenting, even frum ones. There are also frum professionals and Rabbis who can guide you in this area. If you take your responsibility seriously you should pursue those venues.

While you can shmooze (or vent) about anything here, this isn't the ideal ("what better a place") to discuss this.

Several people suggested that I am merely venting or bitter even as I have reiterated that my concern is largely for the children being raised my incompetent parents. most parents will be ok, it's their children who will suffer. The events of the first few years of life are what defines a person's entire life.

I don't buy any of that. I don't mean to get too personal but the first 3-4 years of my life have been more traumatic than most people and while it took a lot of hard work for me as an adult, I am a happy functional person today BH. You're entitled to vent, but if people need help, they need to get it, and not just be aware of "the truth".

Exactly. So let's all stop pretending that it is always cushy and bubbling over with pride and nachas. That just makes them feel worse.

Life isn't all cushy etc. but instead of looking at your half-empty cup, deal with your issues so that you have a balanced view. People need to appreciate the good life and beware of the difficulties. Since you agreed the two aren't mutually exclusive, people who are happy-go-lucky can continue doing so (if it works for them), and the rest of us have things to beware of in a balanced way.

Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 05, 2013, 08:59:38 PM
Beis din are kofe to lay tefillin & shake lulav.

Some BS here but he quotes the Gemara & Rambam that paskens it http://www.daat.ac.il/mishpat-ivri/skirot/311-2.htm

Iif you really don't understand the difference between the chiyuv to keep the shabbos & the din to get married by 20 you have a really big problem.
I stand corrected Re. the Lulav & Tefillin etc..

However,  from where do you get to this whole סברא that because by this particular Halacha the shu"a paskens that beis din is אין כופין, that therefore there is a lesser practical obligation?
Since when is the obligation any less? From where do you deduce that because a beis din is not kofe, makes any difference vis-a-vis practical obligation?

Do you have a source?  Or is this plain בּויך סברות?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 05, 2013, 09:04:54 PM
Gut Voch everyone!  :)

So I'd like to say a few things to Mr. Chaikel. I'll address you directly which is something you apparently lack the courage to do.

First of all, What in the world does this mean?


Not because of some God run mafia, or Rumpelstiltskinain threats,



Onward..

But after seeing posts like this
And this!?
Seriously, if the OP a) doesn't believe there is a better life to come, and b) Is ready to commit suicide if he believed such a thing, well then he is way beyond the help of a forum, and critically needs immediate therapy and assistance. I would say his kid's life is in danger, both spiritually and physically, as this is a deeply disturbed attitude manifested by the kinds of parents that dump their kids in garbage cans. Something that a parent can't begin to comprehend, but people snap.
(HT MosheP for really hitting it out of the park in some posts)

You took a response I made to moko out of context, twisted it and interpreted it to mean I was saying that I do not believe in the afterlife and the I am ready to commit suicide if I knew it gets better, two thing I most definitely did not say. Then you drew a conclusion from these two falsehoods and proclaimed that I am the type of person who would throw my child in a garbage bin.

Way to elevate this conversation.

It is clear you did not actually read what I wrote with any intention of understanding it.

Furthermore, asking others who may know me to intervene based on a warped reading of my post and without even an armchair therapists understanding of  me or my dilemma is irresponsible and does not reflect well on you or our community as a whole.

I sincerely hope that the others posting in this thread take a moment to realize this and to assert their position on the side of sanity and thoughtfulness.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 05, 2013, 09:07:34 PM
I sincerely hope that the others posting in this thread take a moment to realize this and to assert their position on the side of sanity and thoughtfulness.

Your posts, including the title of this thread, come from a place of emotion, not thoughtfulness. Please hold yourself to the same standards you hold others to.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: DrDanny on January 05, 2013, 10:49:54 PM
Your posts, including the title of this thread, come from a place of emotion, not thoughtfulness. Please hold yourself to the same standards you hold others to.
Come on the point was sanity and in this context if you think about your emotions that would count as thoughtfulness
(is there a deeper reason you don't want this thread to go on)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 05, 2013, 10:54:30 PM
OK I think some people are reading a bit too much into this. The OP does not seem suicidal and he does not hate babies (his own or any others), he is just having a bit of an (understandable) hard time now. How many of you ever dealt with a colicky baby? B"H my son hasn't put me through that but I have a younger brother who was, and even though this was over 15 years ago, and I was only 9 at the time I still remember it, it's enough to make any parent question his/her abilities.

Put it this way: 1 of the most rewarding experiences for me as a father is when my baby is crying, and I pick him up, rock him and after a few minutes he calms down and is happy. That makes me feel like I'm a good father. That I can provide for this helpless person in my arms. Now imagine if after hours of holding, rocking, bouncing, singing, holding on the arm, holding on the shoulder etc. etc. etc. the baby is still shrieking like nothing happened. It's enough to make YOU feel helpless as if you're doing something wrong.

All the satisfaction people have been talking about untill now comes from feeling confident that you can take care of your baby, take that away and you are left with just the stress and hardships and sleepless nights.

Dont worry! OP jr. will grow out of her colic soon enough and than OP will be the doting proud father he knows he can be!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 05, 2013, 10:59:15 PM
OK I think some people are reading a bit too much into this. The OP does not seem suicidal and he does not hate babies (his own or any others), he is just having a bit of an (understandable) hard time now. How many of you ever dealt with a colicky baby? B"H my son hasn't put me through that but I have a younger brother who was, and even though this was over 15 years ago, and I was only 9 at the time I still remember it, it's enough to make any parent question his/her abilities.

Put it this way: 1 of the most rewarding experiences for me as a father is when my baby is crying, and I pick him up, rock him and after a few minutes he calms down and is happy. That makes me feel like I'm a good father. That I can provide for this helpless person in my arms. Now imagine if after hours of holding, rocking, bouncing, singing, holding on the arm, holding on the shoulder etc. etc. etc. the baby is still shrieking like nothing happened. It's enough to make YOU feel helpless as if you're doing something wrong.

All the satisfaction people have been talking about untill now comes from feeling confident that you can take care of your baby, take that away and you are left with just the stress and hardships and sleepless nights.

Dont worry! OP jr. will grow out of her colic soon enough and than OP will be the doting proud father he knows he can be!
Been there done that.
+1000
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: DrDanny on January 05, 2013, 11:07:15 PM
OK I think some people are reading a bit too much into this. The OP does not seem suicidal and he does not hate babies (his own or any others), he is just having a bit of an (understandable) hard time now. How many of you ever dealt with a colicky baby? B"H my son hasn't put me through that but I have a younger brother who was, and even though this was over 15 years ago, and I was only 9 at the time I still remember it, it's enough to make any parent question his/her abilities.

Put it this way: 1 of the most rewarding experiences for me as a father is when my baby is crying, and I pick him up, rock him and after a few minutes he calms down and is happy. That makes me feel like I'm a good father. That I can provide for this helpless person in my arms. Now imagine if after hours of holding, rocking, bouncing, singing, holding on the arm, holding on the shoulder etc. etc. etc. the baby is still shrieking like nothing happened. It's enough to make YOU feel helpless as if you're doing something wrong.

All the satisfaction people have been talking about untill now comes from feeling confident that you can take care of your baby, take that away and you are left with just the stress and hardships and sleepless nights.

Dont worry! OP jr. will grow out of her colic soon enough and than OP will be the doting proud father he knows he can be!
+100
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 05, 2013, 11:11:51 PM
Been there done that.
+1000
+100
guess u don't feel as strongly about it as Dan  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 05, 2013, 11:13:14 PM

Dont worry! OP jr. will grow out of her colic soon enough and than OP will be the doting proud father he knows he can be!
Amen!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 11:13:33 PM
guess u don't feel as strongly about it as Dan  ;)
Maybe they are using different scales.  :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 05, 2013, 11:14:36 PM
Maybe they are using different scales.  :P
:D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: DrDanny on January 05, 2013, 11:15:36 PM
guess u don't feel as strongly about it as Dan  ;)
Lol I was doing percentages more zeroes wouldn't mean much (at least in retrospect I was)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 11:16:20 PM
Here is what you should all do. Print out this thread (maybe remove a couple of posts) and have your parents read it. I think they will get a kick out of it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 05, 2013, 11:17:52 PM
Here is what you should all do. Print out this thread (maybe remove a couple of posts) and have your parents read it. I think they will get a kick out of it.
ur making me laugh tonight  ;D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
ur making me laugh tonight  ;D
Like this thread does for me?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 05, 2013, 11:23:04 PM
Like this thread does for me?
again  ;D
by the way-do u have kids
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Side incomer on January 05, 2013, 11:46:37 PM
Just started reading, don't know if this point was made yet.

We are mostly (or all here) a bunch of youngsters, which barely reached the 30s or 40s, and we are complaining for things that last exactly 10-13 years at most. Once you reach that stage you have biggies to help, and to watch the children etc...

We should all remember that there is a long life from the 45 till the 120, and even longer from 120 and on. Ask anybody that finished (or in middle of) marrying off his children, if he regrets one second bringing down so many children with all those years he suffered. I guarantee you won't find a single negative response. The people that have a lot of children enjoy every minute of family joy and growth throughout the years to come.
Of course, we should also take into consideration the general Jewish concept that all mitzvis and maasim tovim that children and grand children do all years to come are to the benefit of the father/grandfather that brought them down to this world.

So basically, it pays to suffer a bit for a few years, knowing that for many years while living on this earth, and lnetzech netzachim, you'd be grateful and thankful to yourself for all those efforts.
And don't forget, that even in those years, you still have joy and nachas from all the good moments (which are sometimes the majority, but you forget after one bad night).

I would wish if anybody above 40 or 50 with a lot of children can chime in to agree or disagree with what said.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 05, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
I would wish if anybody above 40 or 50 with a lot of children can chime in to agree or disagree with what said.
What is considered a lot.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 05, 2013, 11:54:58 PM
What is considered a lot.

Yours would be considered small in Side Incomer's hood :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2013, 12:10:13 AM
Yours would be considered a few in Side Incomer's hood :P
ftfy :)
(I don't think I've seen you being the Grammar Police in quite a while but it's still fun to correct you occasionally) ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 12:12:18 AM
ftfy :)
(I don't think I've seen you being the Grammar Police in quite a while but it's still fun to correct you occasionally) ;)

IIABDFI :D

Yours could refer to his children, which would be considered few, or it could refer to his family, which would be considered small, the latter is what I was saying, please CMIIW.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2013, 12:20:48 AM
please CMIIW.
The question was what is considered "a lot" (of children.) The inverse of that would be "a few."

(Yes, his family could be considered "small," but the discussion until that point was his children.)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2013, 12:26:28 AM
You took a response I made to moko out of context, twisted it and interpreted it to mean I was saying that I do not believe in the afterlife and the I am ready to commit suicide if I knew it gets better, two thing I most definitely did not say. Then you drew a conclusion from these two falsehoods and proclaimed that I am the type of person who would throw my child in a garbage bin.

Way to elevate this conversation.

It is clear you did not actually read what I wrote with any intention of understanding it.

Furthermore, asking others who may know me to intervene based on a warped reading of my post and without even an armchair therapists understanding of  me or my dilemma is irresponsible and does not reflect well on you or our community as a whole.

I sincerely hope that the others posting in this thread take a moment to realize this and to assert their position on the side of sanity and thoughtfulness.
I do think Chaikel was a bit extreme, I don't think you're about to commit suicide or throw your kid in the garbage. However, I do believe (based on reading what you've written) that your issues here are more severe than just "normal" (if there is such a thing) parenting stress / hardships. I would strongly suggest you seek out professional help.
I don't claim to have "even an armchair therapists understanding" of you, but I (and many others here) have lived through your "dilemma" before and I find it very clear from your posts that you have a very unhealthy attitude towards your child and current life.

Please, do yourself and (more importantly?) your wife and child a favor and speak to a qualified professional.

I hope you don't see this as an attack on you, it was not meant in that way, merely as a friendly suggestion.
I was originally planning to PM you, but now that Chaikel "let the cat out of the bag," I figured I'd post here. (for one thing if others think I'm wrong and missed the mark they can respond.)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 12:30:29 AM
The question was what is considered "a lot" (of children.) The inverse of that would be "a few."

(Yes, his family could be considered "small," but the discussion until that point was his children.)

FWIU HelpMe was trying to figure out where his family falls, and I was addressing his question. You can argue from today until tomorrow, but my grammar holds for what I was saying.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2013, 12:43:18 AM
FWIU HelpMe was trying to figure out where his family falls
True, that was the underlying meaning behind his question, but his actual question was how many children would be considered a lot, not what is considered a large or small family.
So yes, your sentence on it's own was grammatically correct. but as a direct answer to HelpMe's question, not so much.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 12:54:35 AM
True, that was the underlying meaning behind his question, but his actual question was how many children would be considered a lot, not what is considered a large or small family.
So yes, your sentence on it's own was grammatically correct. but as a direct answer to HelpMe's question, not so much.

If I would've spelled out your family instead of yours, you wouldn't have said something. That in itself proves to me there's nothing wrong with the "small" part of the sentence.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on January 06, 2013, 01:07:29 AM
If I would've spelled out your family instead of yours, you wouldn't have said something. That in itself proves to me there's nothing wrong with the "small" part of the sentence.
1. But you didn't spell it out.
2. We're going around in circles here. Again, "small" on its own would've been fine but not as a reply to "a lot."
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 05:16:50 AM
How about a direct answer to my question (number of children)?  :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 06, 2013, 09:29:45 AM
How about a direct answer to my question (number of children)?  :)
Depends entirely on the sect.
In SIs hood? "A lot" would probably have to be more than 15 :D

In another sect greater than 5 may be "a lot"
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 06, 2013, 11:48:36 AM
(for one thing if others think I'm wrong and missed the mark they can respond.)
I did already (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=23873.msg381163#msg381163). OP sounds exactly like my Chavrusah in Kollel when he would vent to me after falling asleep on his Sefer one too many times every day. By now he's expecting his second child, and looks pretty happy about it too.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 12:07:51 PM
Depends entirely on the sect.
In SIs hood? "A lot" would probably have to be more than 15 :D

In another sect greater than 5 may be "a lot"
The 5 seems about right (a lot). I hope you are kidding about 15.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 06, 2013, 12:11:54 PM
What I do think is that the OP is trying to point out that having children is not easy, and this is something that a 22-25 year old might not have even thought of before getting married, and then it comes as somewhat of a shock to them and is somewhat unexpected.

Everyone is saying that having children is/could be difficult and is definitely rewarding, and I dont think the OP is disagreeing with that fact.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 06, 2013, 12:13:57 PM
The 5 seems about right (a lot). I hope you are kidding about 15.
I dont know where SI is from, but the bigger families in a lot of communities 12 or so is normal, so then 15 would be whats called a lot
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 06, 2013, 12:16:56 PM
The 5 seems about right (a lot). I hope you are kidding about 15.
15 definitely happens in some communities (personally know at least 3 families with 15+)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 06, 2013, 12:19:20 PM
I know 2 families with 16.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 06, 2013, 12:21:34 PM
in 15+ i included one family with 18
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 06, 2013, 12:30:55 PM
Second kid throwing up in three nights. Gross

I feel for you  :'(

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yare on January 06, 2013, 12:41:13 PM
I feel for you  :'(


a little kids throwup evokes a crying emoticon for the fathers troubles?  really?    take a long look in the mirror, man   cuz you are one self centered dude.    with that kind of attitude i can't imagine you have very healthy relationships with anybody that require giving on your part.  go speak to a professional.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 12:46:21 PM
I dont know where SI is from, but the bigger families in a lot of communities 12 or so is normal, so then 15 would be whats called a lot
15 definitely happens in some communities (personally know at least 3 families with 15+)
I know 2 families with 16.
I hope the community does not promote this or thinks it is normal. For the record I assume we are talking about a Jewish community but my position would be the same if it was Irish, Hispanic or any other community.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: MarkS on January 06, 2013, 01:02:09 PM
I hope the community does not promote this or thinks it is normal. For the record I assume we are talking about a Jewish community but my position would be the same if it was Irish, Hispanic or any other community.
Knowing 2 families of 16 or 3 of 15 doesn't at all represent what is 'promoted'. From the many hundreds of families that I know I only know of 1 or 2 over 12.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yare on January 06, 2013, 01:02:57 PM
I hope the community does not promote this or thinks it is normal.
why not?   who are you to define what's normal and healthy for any given community?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 06, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
Knowing 2 families of 16 or 3 of 15 doesn't at all represent what is 'promoted'. From the many hundreds of families that I know I only know of 1 or 2 over 12.
+1 Didn't say it was the norm, though the norm is definitely bigger than the norm in the rest of America.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 01:10:03 PM
why not?   who are you to define what's normal and healthy for any given community?
I guess no one should give their opinion?

If another Jim Jones pops up we should not say anything?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yare on January 06, 2013, 01:12:55 PM
I guess no one should give their opinion?
who said anything about not giving your opinion?     i asked you what your opinion is based on.    if it's based on nothing (as so far you've provided nothing), then maybe you should qualify it.  wouldn't want to confuse anybody into thinking you were coming from a position of knowledge when it wasn't
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 06, 2013, 01:25:19 PM
a little kids throwup evokes a crying emoticon for the fathers troubles?  really?    take a long look in the mirror, man   cuz you are one self centered dude.    with that kind of attitude i can't imagine you have very healthy relationships with anybody that require giving on your part.  go speak to a professional.

Ergel is feeling stressed and I want him/her to know I sympathize.
What's with the hate?

I think when you receive hate for saying something it means you are right. Because if you were on the wrong side, the disagreements would be polite and not mean spirited. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 01:25:53 PM
I hope the community does not promote this or thinks it is normal. For the record I assume we are talking about a Jewish community but my position would be the same if it was Irish, Hispanic or any other community.

"Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and conquer it" (Gen. 1:28), some take that literally. With today's technology there are more than 3x the amount of people compared to 50 years ago, and less people living in poverty. And technology is only getting better. Also, most of the population that will be alive in 2050 (when world population is expected to peak at 10 billion) are already alive.

Personally, my neighbor is one of 17 (ka"h) IIRC, and he's a normal guy with 4 (ka"h) kids of his own.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 01:32:48 PM
wouldn't want to confuse anybody into thinking you were coming from a position of knowledge when it wasn't
I have no medical or psychological training just common sense.  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 01:39:11 PM
Personally, my neighbor is one of 17 (ka"h) IIRC, and he's a normal guy with 4 (ka"h) kids of his own.
I knew Irish & Italian families that had 10+ children. This was not something the community promoted it was just their choice.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
I knew Irish null Italian families that had 10+ children. This was not something the community promoted it was just their choice.

What do you call "the community promoting" something?

There are no bumper stickers in these communities reading "be religious: make more babies" or anyting to that effect.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: moko on January 06, 2013, 01:45:02 PM
What do you call "the community promoting" something?

There are no bumper stickers in these communities reading "be religious: make more babies" or anyting to that effect.
ROFL
just picturing it
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: jj1000 on January 06, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
What do you call "the community promoting" something?

There are no bumper stickers in these communities reading "be religious: make more babies" or anyting to that effect.
I guess you didn't hear Rabbi Cunin speak after at his rally after Mumbai. On television he said "men put on teffilin and women have more babies". It was epic. All the bochurim were rolling.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
There are no bumper stickers in these communities reading "be religious: make more babies" or anyting to that effect.
LOL!

I got the impression from some of the posts that certain sect (hope that is the right word) it was expected to marry young and have children right away. Am I reading this wrong?

If this same pressure was exerted to have a lot (10+ to pick a number) of children I would see that as not normal and a big problem (IMHO).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Lamdan on January 06, 2013, 01:54:31 PM
Dear Yehuda S, I think you should speak to a smart caring reputable Rav, you do seem really depressed about this. Maybe someone can lift up your spirits.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 06, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
LOL!

I got the impression from some of the posts that certain sect (hope that is the right word) it was expected to marry young and have children right away. Am I reading this wrong?

If this same pressure was exerted to have a lot (10+ to pick a number) of children I would see that as not normal and a big problem (IMHO).

What about if ideally it was about promoting family values and a traditional lifestyle, and in reality is subverted into some sort of (implied?) community pressure, does that in any way make the underlying values any less valuable (pun)?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 06, 2013, 02:16:26 PM
I stand corrected Re. the Lulav & Tefillin etc..

However,  from where do you get to this whole סברא that because by this particular Halacha the shu"a paskens that beis din is אין כופין, that therefore there is a lesser practical obligation?
Since when is the obligation any less? From where do you deduce that because a beis din is not kofe, makes any difference vis-a-vis practical obligation?

Do you have a source?  Or is this plain בּויך סברות?

First of all, halacha doesnt start and end in the shulchan aruch, in order to understand the Shu"a we must look back at his sources all the way through to the torah.

Now, do you really thing the practical obligation to wake up before the neitz, is the same as the obligation to make a bris milah?

Now, Beis din are kofe to be mekayim anything that one is absolutely required to do. This is because it is their responsibility to ensure one complies with all obligations. Therefore, they don't have to wake people up at alois, since that is not an absolute requirement, but are koife people to have a bris milan.

Requirements can have 2 origins - deoriasa and derbanan. In the first, G-D directly commands a specific action, and we know so either because it is written in the torah, or by masoires (Halacha lemoshe msinayi, etc). The second origin is derbanan. Chazal had the power to make commandments similar to Gd. For example, the requirement to take תרומות ומעשרות bezman haze (according to some opinions) is a commandment similar to the din deroisa of תרומות ומעשרותin the olden days.

Anything not falling under the realm of those two origins, is not a chiyuv.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ChAiM'l on January 06, 2013, 02:28:01 PM
IMHO if that's how you feel then you should have sent it via PM
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 06, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Ergel is feeling stressed
-1, just grossed out. Although I do agree that the response to your response was unwarranted
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: elikay on January 06, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
Any way to ignore threads in tapatalk?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: how on January 06, 2013, 03:05:57 PM
Any way to ignore threads in tapatalk?
+1
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 03:38:33 PM
What do you call "the community promoting" something?

There are no bumper stickers in these communities reading "be religious: make more babies" or anyting to that effect.
ROFL
I got the impression from some of the posts that certain sect (hope that is the right word) it was expected to marry young and have children right away. Am I reading this wrong?
No
If this same pressure was exerted to have a lot (10+ to pick a number) of children

No pressure at all, just a mitzvah  ;)

First of all, halacha doesnt start and end in the shulchan aruch, in order to understand the Shu"a we must look back at his sources all the way through to the torah.

Now, do you really thing the practical obligation to wake up before the neitz, is the same as the obligation to make a bris milah?

Now, Beis din are kofe to be mekayim anything that one is absolutely required to do. This is because it is their responsibility to ensure one complies with all obligations. Therefore, they don't have to wake people up at alois, since that is not an absolute requirement, but are koife people to have a bris milan.

Requirements can have 2 origins - deoriasa and derbanan. In the first, G-D directly commands a specific action, and we know so either because it is written in the torah, or by masoires (Halacha lemoshe msinayi, etc). The second origin is derbanan. Chazal had the power to make commandments similar to Gd. For example, the requirement to take תרומות ומעשרות bezman haze (according to some opinions) is a commandment similar to the din deroisa of תרומות ומעשרותin the olden days.

Anything not falling under the realm of those two origins, is not a chiyuv.
I ask you again, do you have a source that subscribes any less importance to marrying before (or starting at least at) 20 then any other halacha in Shu"a?

Any posek?  Any sefer? Any one?
Where do you get that there is any less of a chiyuv (because beis din is not כופין)? 
מקור please.

The רמ"א specifically here writes that  בזמה"ז נהגו שלא לכוף ע"ז (FYI the ערוה"ש disagrees in principle), to the contrary everywhere else by most other halachos it's usually not even mentioned whether כופין or not, and the נושאי כלים specifically say the reason(s) why in this instance בי"ד אין כופין (perhaps to show that the practical obligation stays the same?), yet at the same time they don't seem to (at all) minimize the practical obligation - the chiyuv..

(waking up at עלוה"ש is only a
mitzvah מן המובחר so no kidding..)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on January 06, 2013, 03:53:36 PM
Let's just get this straight. You believe someone without a bris & someone who got maried at 21 are both equally wrong?
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 04:07:19 PM
Let's just get this straight. You believe someone without a bris & someone who got maried at 21 are both equally wrong?
No
Do you believe s/o who speaks LH is the same as s/o w/o a bris?
C'mon.
Does that give anyone a hetter to speak LH, or make it any less severe..
(yes, I know LH is a מדאורייתא, however the point remains the same)

And BTW, 20 obviously doesn't mean the deadline to in practice already be  married, it obviously means the deadline to at least start being מתעסק in שידוכים etc.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 06, 2013, 04:15:25 PM
@HelpMe
Even though there's such a concept, having 15 children is definitly not normal.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 04:17:19 PM
@HelpMe
Even though there's such a concept, having 15 children is definitly not normal.
You probably mean to say "not the norm"..
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 06, 2013, 04:30:08 PM
You probably mean to say "not the norm"..
No, I meant what I said.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yare on January 06, 2013, 04:35:44 PM
I have no medical or psychological training just common sense.  ;)
if parents can support and raise 15 kids what's not right about that?              you may have been inculcated with the american doctrine that 2 kids and a dog are what a family is supposed to look like but it's certainly not common sense. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 04:49:14 PM
if parents can support and raise 15 kids what's not right about that?
I have no problem if a couple decides to have 10 kids. I do have a problem if the reason is pressure (or whatever you want to call it) from an outside source.

you may have been inculcated with the american doctrine that 2 kids and a dog are what a family is supposed to look like but it's certainly not common sense.
I think you have me confused with someone else.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 04:56:36 PM
No, I meant what I said.
I was trying to be מלמד זכות.  Oh well, I guess you pick and choose what part of the religion you think is "normal"..
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 04:56:53 PM
No pressure at all, just a mitzvah  ;)
I think you would agree if someone believes this then there is nothing I or anyone else could say that would make a difference.

Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 04:59:43 PM
Oh well, I guess you pick and choose what part of the religion you think is "normal"..
This is the big problem with all religions. Let’s pick on my religion. Should I follow blindly everything the Pope says even if I believe it to be wrong?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 05:01:32 PM
I think you would agree if someone believes this then there is nothing I or anyone else could say that would make a difference.
You? No chance (no offense intended).
Their Rabbi?  Big chance  :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: jj1000 on January 06, 2013, 05:03:10 PM
This is the big problem with all religions. Let’s pick on my religion. Should I follow blindly everything the Pope says even if I believe it to be wrong?
You don't?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 05:22:13 PM
Their Rabbi?  Big chance  :)
But can’t two Rabbis’ give two different opinions? Now what do you do.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 05:24:35 PM
You don't?
If you are asking if I follow blindly then the answer is, no.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2013, 05:27:13 PM
So now the discussion is about following religion. On DDF its a topic for discussion :o?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 06, 2013, 05:53:49 PM
I don't know if you noticed but almost any topic in DDF eventually turns to religion :))
Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 06, 2013, 06:00:22 PM
I was trying to be מלמד זכות.  Oh well, I guess you pick and choose what part of the religion you think is "normal"..
Assuming the religion dictates that, you're right.
But thats not the case, with my religion, at least.
And yes, I'm an orthodox jew.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 06:07:40 PM
I don't know if you noticed but almost any topic in DDF eventually turns to religion :))
You are kidding.  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 06:49:19 PM
Assuming the religion dictates that, you're right.
But thats not the case, with my religion, at least.
And yes, I'm an orthodox jew.
In orthodox Judaism, it is admirable (obviously in the right conditions),
not
definitly not normal.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on January 06, 2013, 06:51:19 PM
In orthodox Judaism, it is admirable
15-16?? c'mon...
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 06:54:12 PM
But can’t two Rabbis’ give two different opinions? Now what do you do.
Good question, are you sure you're not Jewish?!  ;D
One is supposed to appoint for oneself one rabbi, with which one goes to with all his questions (with regards to religious law).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 06, 2013, 06:54:41 PM
15-16?? c'mon...
The more, the merrier  :D
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 07:34:15 PM
Good question, are you sure you're not Jewish?!  ;D
The more you think religions are different you find out the more they are the same.  ;)

One is supposed to appoint for oneself one rabbi, with which one goes to with all his questions (with regards to religious law).
…and what you do if in twenty years you find out the you have confided in all those years turns out to be a child molester like has happen in the Roman Catholic Church?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 06, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
…and what you do if in twenty years you find out the you have confided in all those years turns out to be a child molester like has happen in the Roman Catholic Church?
Do? In terms if what? I guess you feel stupid for a bit and then you move on.

With regard to religious obligation you are only required to do things to the best of your ability. If you find out that you were given bad advice that you sought out with the right intentions you won't be held accountable. If you suspected he was molesting kids though, and you ignored it you are in hot water.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 07:49:34 PM
With regard to religious obligation you are only required to do things to the best of your ability. If you find out that you were given bad advice that you sought out with the right intentions you won't be held accountable. If you suspected he was molesting kids though, and you ignored it you are in hot water.
This is the part I have a big problem with and 100% disagree with. Following the advice of your priest/rabbi when you believe in your heart it is the wrong advice is not an excuse that is going to cut it when that time comes (IMHO).
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 06, 2013, 07:55:57 PM
If you find out that you were given bad advice that you sought out with the right intentions you won't be held accountable.

-1 I don't believe things are so black and white like that.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 06, 2013, 08:14:02 PM
This is the part I have a big problem with and 100% disagree with. Following the advice of your priest/rabbi when you believe in your heart it is the wrong advice is not an excuse that is going to cut it when that time comes (IMHO).

That's not what I said. You're adding the part about advice that you feel is wrong.

I was talking about asking what religious obligatation you have, not advice. Also if you sense something is amiss it is important to question it.

In any case, I'll turn your question around and ask you, what would you do if you followed your religious creed and found out after 20 years that it was the wrong one?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 06, 2013, 11:37:30 PM
In any case, I'll turn your question around and ask you, what would you do if you followed your religious creed and found out after 20 years that it was the wrong one?
I don’t think it is possible anyone will ever find out the religious creed they follow is the wrong one. Did you ever entertain the idea that there is no “wrong one”? 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 06, 2013, 11:49:23 PM
I don’t think it is possible anyone will ever find out the religious creed they follow is the wrong one. Did you ever entertain the idea that there is no “wrong one”? 
Nope
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 07, 2013, 12:53:36 AM
I don’t think it is possible anyone will ever find out the religious creed they follow is the wrong one. Did you ever entertain the idea that there is no “wrong one”? 

Of course not. If there's no wrong one then there's no right one.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
If there's no wrong one then there's no right one.
At least we agree on something.  :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 07, 2013, 09:43:11 AM
I don’t think it is possible anyone will ever find out the religious creed they follow is the wrong one. Did you ever entertain the idea that there is no “wrong one”?

Absolutely. Judaism believes very strongly that for most people there is simply an obligation to follow the seven Noahide commandments. After that any additional religious requirements are fine... Generally speaking Christianity, Islam and some other religions are completely legitimate options for a vast number of people.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 07, 2013, 09:45:41 AM
a little kids throwup evokes a crying emoticon for the fathers troubles?  really?    take a long look in the mirror, man   cuz you are one self centered dude.    with that kind of attitude i can't imagine you have very healthy relationships with anybody that require giving on your part.  go speak to a professional.

Wow... Just break up with an emoticon? Take it easy
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 07, 2013, 09:53:31 AM
Absolutely. Judaism believes very strongly that for most people there is simply an obligation to follow the seven Noahide commandments. After that any additional religious requirements are fine... Generally speaking Christianity, Islam and some other religions are completely legitimate options for a vast number of people.
Not for discussion here or now but not so pashut
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2013, 09:58:22 AM
Wow... Just break up with an emoticon? Take it easy
:D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 07, 2013, 09:59:55 AM
Not for discussion here or now but not so pashut

It seems like just about everything is up for discussion... Regardless what I was trying to say was simply that Judaism (as opposed to every other major Abrahamic religion believes that there may be legitimate paths other than it's own.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 07, 2013, 10:01:08 AM
Not for discussion here or now but not so pashut
yup IIRC there is a Machlokes if Shituf is Mutar for B"N
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 07, 2013, 10:02:26 AM
It seems like just about everything is up for discussion... Regardless what I was trying to say was simply that Judaism (as opposed to every other major Abrahamic religion believes that there may be legitimate paths other than it's own.
True. Although modern Catholic thought on the matter is not so clear. It seems to be a machlokes haposkim whether Jews are damned forever
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 07, 2013, 10:03:00 AM
yup IIRC there is a Machlokes if Shituf is Mutar for B"N
Ding ding ding. But not for discussion here or now
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 10:04:57 AM
It seems like just about everything is up for discussion... Regardless what I was trying to say was simply that Judaism (as opposed to every other major Abrahamic religion believes that there may be legitimate paths other than it's own.
Learned something new.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 10:06:23 AM
Ding ding ding. But not for discussion here or now
Anyone care to clue me in on what I am not understanding?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on January 07, 2013, 10:20:01 AM
Is there an existing religion thread I can fork this to?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 07, 2013, 10:33:13 AM
If you start one no one takes responsibility to what will go on in there....
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on January 07, 2013, 10:35:00 AM
If you start one no one takes responsibility to what will go on in there....
+1

Wont look to peaceful in that thread
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
Is there an existing religion thread I can fork this to?
Even entertaining heretical thoughts is a terible aveira. Having a thread discusing religions may be not a good idea.
If it would be up to me i would stop this thread also.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 11:07:54 AM
Is there an existing religion thread I can fork this to?
Please feel free to delete all my posts. Someone just clued me in.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 07, 2013, 11:11:58 AM
Someone just clued me in.
Oy vey ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 07, 2013, 11:15:06 AM
I don’t think it is possible anyone will ever find out the religious creed they follow is the wrong one.

-1

To the extent that one 'knows' all 999 other religions are wrong, one can also come to that same level of 'knowledge' that one's own religion is wrong too. But religion is such a huge investment in life (and after-life) that I would hope one is as sure as humanely possible that it is correct before devoting their entire being to it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 11:33:42 AM
-1

To the extent that one 'knows' all 999 other religions are wrong, one can also come to that same level of 'knowledge' that one's own religion is wrong too. But religion is such a huge investment in life (and after-life) that I would hope one is as sure as humanely possible that it is correct before devoting their entire being to it.
I would like to continue this but I am afraid some/many will be offended and that is not my purpose. It is come to my attention that some religions prohibit the discussion of certain things. Anyway most of you would probably agree that I have said too much already.  :)

Back OT. For the older ones here at what age (childs) would you say is the turning point that parenting gets easier?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on January 07, 2013, 11:41:42 AM
I think the first turning point (and this is all I can comment on as this is how old my oldest is) is three. At that point you can start to reason with them
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ChAiM'l on January 07, 2013, 11:44:07 AM
I think the first turning point (and this is all I can comment on as this is how old my oldest is) is three. At that point you can start to reason with them

+1. It still isn't easy, but definitely makes life much simpler when you can reason with the kid...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: mmermss on January 07, 2013, 11:49:03 AM

Back OT. For the older ones here at what age (childs) would you say is the turning point that parenting gets easier?
What do you think?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 07, 2013, 11:58:06 AM
IMO (for whatever its worth, my oldest is 1) It's when the child can start taking care of himself. At that point parenting transitions from nurturing your child to educating him (although in a way that is more of a responsibility with bigger consequences for failure).

And yes it would interest me to know (as someone who passed it):
What do you think?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 07, 2013, 12:21:09 PM
What do you think?
I would say it was their junior/senior year in HS or the year right after that.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: est on January 07, 2013, 07:41:00 PM
Guess ur kids didn't enter the shied duct crisis! And u don't have to worry about marrying off and supporting them! I Think up til about 3-4 is physically hard then til hs it's emotionally hard with parenting and then it becomes both after that!
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on January 07, 2013, 08:00:30 PM
And u don't have to worry about marrying off and supporting them!

Nor do you. You could instead give your kids the means to support themselves. Because if your kids are putting you in a place where you have to "worry that much" to support them, you probably shouldn't be.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Steven on January 07, 2013, 08:08:52 PM
jumping in on the convo, someone wisely told me that the reg headache from children isnt tzar gidul banim, thats normal and totally expected. Tzar gidul banim is when things really get rough
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2013, 12:13:44 AM
little kids little problems, big kids big probems
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2013, 12:14:57 AM
when they are little they wake you up at night, when they are older they keep you up at night.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 08, 2013, 12:27:12 AM
when they are little they wake you up at night, when they are older they keep you up at night.
True

little kids little problems, big kids big probems
False

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 08, 2013, 12:30:28 AM
Guess ur kids didn't enter the shied duct crisis!
???


And u don't have to worry about marrying off and supporting them!
Short answer: H*LL NO!
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 08, 2013, 06:31:17 AM
???
He was just doing a play on some Hebrew word, never mind.
Title: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HelpMe on January 08, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
He was just doing a play on some Hebrew word, never mind.
shidduch?
Title: Re: Re: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 08, 2013, 07:38:45 AM
shidduch?
Yup! :D
Wow!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: est on January 08, 2013, 10:37:44 PM
He was just doing a play on some Hebrew word, never mind.

sry was actually comp that auto corrected shidduch.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Centurion on January 09, 2013, 08:59:13 PM
@OP

1. Who said hardship and blessing are mutually exclusive.
2. Your entire childhood life was training for parenthood, how may children can be heard saying "when I will be big..." or "when I will be a tatty/mommy..."
3. This is a deals site, why is the perfect place to discuss this?
4. You now have a child, do the best you can (within your abilities) for her. If you're not sure you can handle any more, consult your LOR.
5. For your own mental health, focus on the things about your daughter that make you happy/proud etc.
6. BH you don't know how tragic it is for people who don't have children. Just like they don't know what your child-rearing difficulties are, so too you don't know theirs.

An that was when he knew his descendants would be wicked, and G-d told him that isn't his problem and he must have children anyway (or he will die).

b "asher" who shom
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AsherO on January 09, 2013, 09:55:10 PM
b "asher" who shom

Cute.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 01, 2013, 04:55:16 PM
Anyone heard of this?

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on May 01, 2013, 05:25:47 PM
Anyone heard of this?



Yes, she has a pretty big following and supposedly it actually works (but I have not personally verified it).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 01, 2013, 05:30:49 PM
Yes, she has a pretty big following and supposedly it actually works (but I have not personally verified it).
My wife and I saw it a week ago and started listening out, it sounds interesting and makes sense, wonder if it translates to real life.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on May 01, 2013, 05:49:06 PM
Always admired people who are able to get rich off a mishegas.  The trick is to take something that no one can can disprove.

(interesting choice of thread btw)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 01, 2013, 05:53:16 PM
...The trick is to take something that no one can can disprove.


Funny that you mentioned that, here is what I found in my research:
Quote from:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscilla_Dunstan#Criticism
Linguistics experts point out that Dunstan's hypothesis has not been subjected to rigorous testing or academic scrutiny.[4] The Dunstan company had, at one time, developed a clinical trial plan with Brown University researchers to test its claims, but abandoned it for consumer surveys and small-group observations in order "to hasten the development of a system that could be used by parents," skipping rigorous testing to go straight to market.[5]
An orange (if not red) flag IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 01, 2013, 06:13:47 PM
Anyone heard of this?


My wife always seems to understand the babies anyway.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on August 25, 2013, 03:17:49 PM
yehuda S now writing for HuffPo ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-julianelle/10-ways-living-with-a-toddler-is-like-being-in-prison_b_3726549.html
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on August 25, 2013, 03:43:05 PM
At least not this article. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/16/choice-child-free-admirable-not-selfish
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: damaxer91 on August 25, 2013, 07:50:28 PM
Do you want to really appreciate the gifts that your children are?

Talk to anyone who has R'L lost a child. You'll stop complaining very quickly......

This weekend's story was from the most awful I've ever seen (Also happened to one of the nicest families that I know)

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/182929/Tragedy-In-Cedarhurst%3A-Tragic-Petira-Of-10-Year-Old-Aaron-Tepfer-Z%22L.html
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on August 25, 2013, 07:57:46 PM
Do you want to really appreciate the gifts that your children are?

Talk to anyone who has R'L lost a child. You'll stop complaining very quickly......

This weekend's story was from the most awful I've ever seen (Also happened to one of the nicest families that I know)

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/182929/Tragedy-In-Cedarhurst%3A-Tragic-Petira-Of-10-Year-Old-Aaron-Tepfer-Z%22L.html
No need to send people on guilt trips, people can appreciate their children and at the same time feel overwhelmed by the hard (yes hard) work, the 2 feelings are NOT mutually exclusive. No need to send someone on a guilt trip just because he felt a need to vent a little.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Side incomer on August 25, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
He is not sending anyone on a guilt trip.

He is just trying to explain that when one child misses we can start to learn the true love and beauty of when they are here.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: damaxer91 on August 25, 2013, 08:02:16 PM
No need to send people on guilt trips, people can appreciate their children and at the same time feel overwhelmed by the hard (yes hard) work, the 2 feelings are NOT mutually exclusive. No need to send someone on a guilt trip just because he felt a need to vent a little.

Some people here are doing more than a "little venting".

Trust me that nobody who went to that Levaya today is going to complain about their kids crying at 3 AM this week......
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on August 25, 2013, 08:39:55 PM
Some people here are doing more than a "little venting".

If you think THIS is venting, you should see what goes on in the woman's forums :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: dirah on August 25, 2013, 08:46:41 PM
If you think THIS is venting, you should see what goes on in the woman's forums :P
They are talking about their husband's, not their kids.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on August 25, 2013, 08:52:04 PM
yehuda S now writing for HuffPo ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-julianelle/10-ways-living-with-a-toddler-is-like-being-in-prison_b_3726549.html
Shocking how someone takes something so beautiful and twist it into something so negative.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on August 25, 2013, 09:01:58 PM
I love my son more than words can describe but a little tongue-in-cheek humor never hurt anyone.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on August 25, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
I love my son more than words can describe but a little tongue-in-cheek humor never hurt anyone.
Oh, I didnt read the whole article, didnt realize it was supposed to be humorous ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on August 25, 2013, 11:05:15 PM
yehuda S now writing for HuffPo ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-julianelle/10-ways-living-with-a-toddler-is-like-being-in-prison_b_3726549.html

I wish.

I thought the least I could hope for is getting a trip report on the front page of DansDeals but I guess it wasn't to be.  :'(
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on August 26, 2013, 12:01:05 PM
yehuda S now writing for HuffPo ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-julianelle/10-ways-living-with-a-toddler-is-like-being-in-prison_b_3726549.html

That was hilarious!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ckmk47 on August 27, 2013, 02:27:38 AM
I just saw this thread today for the first time.  I want to address the stress of having young children.

I'm 51 and have 8 children, ka"h, 3 married.  My first 5 children were born in just over 7 years. 
When my first was born, I was overwhelmed with the responsibility of it all.  I would not be 'free' for at least 20 years, and then only if I had no more!  30 years later, my youngest is 10 and I still have an unconscious awareness of where each of my children (that live at home) is.

Day to day, young children are tiring.  It's continuous - there's no escaping it. (except when they're asleep)  I loved  "10 Ways Living With a Toddler Is Like Being in Prison"

It helped that I worked only part time (I was out only a few hours a day, 4 days a week).

advice:

The parents should work as a team.  They don't have to share the jobs equally, but they should share the concerns and plans. 
for example, "She's crying so much tonight, I'm taking her to the doctor tomorrow."  The response is, "If you're not sure she's well get her checked out."  NOT "You keep taking her in to be checked.  There's nothing wrong with her."  In other words, the communication and encouragement that goes into a good marriage is what helps with good parenting.

Get/ have support from family and friends. I mean emotional.
for example, I periodically went to my parents for Shabbos:  No cooking and help with the kids over the day.  A different environment for the kids was new and stimulating, so they often needed me less anyway.
I'd spend time with my sisters or good friend.  The kids would play together and we'd have each other for company.

Hang out with friends in your situation.  I found that talking to other parents of newborns and young children was like a support group.  We complained, sympathized and gave advice.

Go to parenting class; read parenting books.  It opens your eyes to your interactions with your children and gives you tools you may not have grown up with.

Also, know that children grow up and out of each stage.  Although it seems like it will never happen, you just need to hang in there.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Jkhein on August 27, 2013, 04:58:58 AM
I just saw this thread today for the first time.  I want to address the stress of having young children.

I'm 51 and have 8 children, ka"h, 3 married.  My first 5 children were born in just over 7 years. 
When my first was born, I was overwhelmed with the responsibility of it all.  I would not be 'free' for at least 20 years, and then only if I had no more!  30 years later, my youngest is 10 and I still have an unconscious awareness of where each of my children (that live at home) is.

Day to day, young children are tiring.  It's continuous - there's no escaping it. (except when they're asleep)  I loved  "10 Ways Living With a Toddler Is Like Being in Prison"

It helped that I worked only part time (I was out only a few hours a day, 4 days a week).

advice:

The parents should work as a team.  They don't have to share the jobs equally, but they should share the concerns and plans. 
for example, "She's crying so much tonight, I'm taking her to the doctor tomorrow."  The response is, "If you're not sure she's well get her checked out."  NOT "You keep taking her in to be checked.  There's nothing wrong with her."  In other words, the communication and encouragement that goes into a good marriage is what helps with good parenting.

Get/ have support from family and friends. I mean emotional.
for example, I periodically went to my parents for Shabbos:  No cooking and help with the kids over the day.  A different environment for the kids was new and stimulating, so they often needed me less anyway.
I'd spend time with my sisters or good friend.  The kids would play together and we'd have each other for company.

Hang out with friends in your situation.  I found that talking to other parents of newborns and young children was like a support group.  We complained, sympathized and gave advice.

Go to parenting class; read parenting books.  It opens your eyes to your interactions with your children and gives you tools you may not have grown up with.

Also, know that children grow up and out of each stage.  Although it seems like it will never happen, you just need to hang in there.
Kol hakavode! finally someone talking to the OP other than just bashing!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 04:08:20 AM
I just saw this thread today for the first time.  I want to address the stress of having young children.

I'm 51 and have 8 children, ka"h, 3 married.  My first 5 children were born in just over 7 years. 
When my first was born, I was overwhelmed with the responsibility of it all.  I would not be 'free' for at least 20 years, and then only if I had no more!  30 years later, my youngest is 10 and I still have an unconscious awareness of where each of my children (that live at home) is.

Day to day, young children are tiring.  It's continuous - there's no escaping it. (except when they're asleep)  I loved  "10 Ways Living With a Toddler Is Like Being in Prison"

It helped that I worked only part time (I was out only a few hours a day, 4 days a week).

advice:

The parents should work as a team.  They don't have to share the jobs equally, but they should share the concerns and plans. 
for example, "She's crying so much tonight, I'm taking her to the doctor tomorrow."  The response is, "If you're not sure she's well get her checked out."  NOT "You keep taking her in to be checked.  There's nothing wrong with her."  In other words, the communication and encouragement that goes into a good marriage is what helps with good parenting.

Get/ have support from family and friends. I mean emotional.
for example, I periodically went to my parents for Shabbos:  No cooking and help with the kids over the day.  A different environment for the kids was new and stimulating, so they often needed me less anyway.
I'd spend time with my sisters or good friend.  The kids would play together and we'd have each other for company.

Hang out with friends in your situation.  I found that talking to other parents of newborns and young children was like a support group.  We complained, sympathized and gave advice.

Go to parenting class; read parenting books.  It opens your eyes to your interactions with your children and gives you tools you may not have grown up with.

Also, know that children grow up and out of each stage.  Although it seems like it will never happen, you just need to hang in there.

I commend your post, and there is good advice in there (nothing beats actual experience).

However, I would delve a bit deeper to get to the root of the "problem".

I think that many parents find their children to be "hard" because the parents don't find dealing with their children to be a mission in and of itself. Today, parents just want to distract their children as much as possible, so that the parents can do their own thing. Let's face it, we just want to get our kids into bed so that we can get time for ourselves.

Years ago, this was not an issue. The stay at home parent (usually the mom) fully accepted taking care of their children to be a mission in and of itself, and did it the same way you would do any job that you were dedicated to (and much more..).

What happened over the years is two things:

1. Society basically convinced young people that parenting is boring and not accomplishing anything. It's far better to go out into the world and "do something" with your life.

Now, even though Frum people supposedly "don't buy into this", it still had and continues to have a powerful affect on young Frum couples. These couples have children, as that is what is expected, but they don't fully believe that investing every minute with the children is an accomplishment. They therefore find having children extremely difficult. When you have to spend your whole day taking care of your kids and running after them instead of doing what YOU want to do, NO KIDDING it is hard!

Women are told today that being a stay at home mom is basically being a loser and a slave. Idiots like Sheryl Sandberg basically make women feel stupid for wanting to spend their life taking care of their children. As a result, women who are by nature very nurturing and kind begin feeling miserable after having children. They feel trapped and unhappy. How should they not feel like they are "in jail" when their child basically ties up their whole day!

2. There are too many distractions today. For some reason, couples are finding that they need to take more and more vacations in order to keep the peace in the home. Parents used to take vacations for the kids benefit, today, it's for their own benefit. So if the kids are fussy along the way, it "ruined" their vacation. (Ironic isn't it? How could the children ruin YOUR vacation if it was all about them?)

If you are feeling that your children are difficult, ask yourself if it is really because they are truly difficult, or because you want to get back to what you want to do, and they are simply getting in the way.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: smee123 on September 02, 2013, 07:23:17 AM
@Zale  +1, well said.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 08:05:45 AM
@Zale  +1, well said.
Having children at a young age is a big part of what makes it hard. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 08:09:47 AM
@Zale  +1, well said.
++
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 08:11:15 AM
Having children at a young age is a big part of what makes it hard.
Aren't most people more tolerant when they are younger?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: smee123 on September 02, 2013, 08:12:48 AM
Having children at a young age is a big part of what makes it hard.
Because young people aren't mature? Or because they like to run around without worrying about kids?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: real-brisker on September 02, 2013, 08:23:36 AM
Or, cause kids are more scared of old men with white hair.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
Aren't most people more tolerant when they are younger?
To a baby crying, I would say no.
Because young people aren't mature? Or because they like to run around without worrying about kids?
Mostly the first one. If they were more mature that would take care of the second part most of the time.
Or, cause kids are more scared of old men with white hair.
...and here I thought it was the beard they were scared of.  :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: real-brisker on September 02, 2013, 08:40:57 AM
CV - Not all of us have beards. ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 08:43:12 AM
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 08:49:54 AM
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea.
That’s because you did not live through the depression. If you had you would know how much better than all had it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 08:58:00 AM
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be. But @zale has a good point on how we have a harder time enduring this pain.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 09:00:13 AM
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be.
???
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 09:03:10 AM
???
Genesis 3:16
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 09:03:53 AM
I partially agree as one of the curses given to Eve (and all women thereafter) was the pain of bringing up children so it was never easy never will be. But @zale has a good point on how we have a harder time enduring keeping our mouths shut about this pain.
FTFY
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 09:05:38 AM
FTFY
lol but I disagree
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
Genesis 3:16
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
Quote from: CountValentine link=topic=23873.msg577332#msg577332 date=137812 7171
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 09:10:49 AM
lol but I disagree
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing. I think the ability to vent to friends is a great way to help us cope with the hardships of child rearing (or any hardships for that matter).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: real-brisker on September 02, 2013, 09:10:50 AM
CV +1
SamKey what cheder did you go to ;)?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 09:14:15 AM
How many of you believe “the bearing of children as one of the most rewarding and joyous experiences of a woman's life.”
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 09:43:20 AM
Bearing or raising?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 10:13:09 AM
Sorry, i don't buy into the whole 'in the olden days everything was great' idea. In the olden days life was just as hard (if not harder), raising kids was always just as hard as it is today. If anything it was made harder by the fact that birth control was not an option and families grew large whther the parents were capable or not. The only reason we have this idealized view of 'the good old days' is because in a sense only the good happy parts were preserved (there were no internet messaging boards to vent to so all the vents stayed in private conversations).

I recently came across a Teshuvah from before the war (I can't remember now from who), in response to someone looking for a Heter to abstain from having children (for lack of reliable BC methods) because his wife was having a hard time, the Teshuvah was saying how in the 'olden days' it was the common practice to abstain for a year after having a child to preserve the mothers' health, but 'these days' the generations are lower and such abstination may lead to problems.

Who said everything was great in the olden days? As a matter of fact, most things sucked - especially for Jews. (Aside from using rocks for toilet paper and other "conveniences"..)

Nevertheless, SOME values were better. For one, there was importance placed on raising a family. Women were not taunted as being a loser for choosing to stay at home and raise a family. Men were not taunted as "locking themselves in prison" for getting married. There was a special place in the heart of society for a family. People felt that this was the "pursuit of happiness" that every American is entitled to.

Today, this is CLEARLY not the case. Today's society popularizes the idea of "living free" for as long as possible. Getting married young is basically looked at as stupid and foolish, and having children even more so. (Because today the "pursuit of happiness" is associated with the "pursuit of fun", and if you have children you diminish your chances of having a lot of fun).

Your argument about birth control is irrelevant here. Birth control is an excellent thing in my opinion. It allows you to choose to have children only when you feel physically and emotionally ready for it. It also prevents a great deal of child abuse which occurs due to "unwanted children". However, this has nothing to do with the fact that having children is practically frowned upon in society, which in turn makes parents feel that spending their whole day taking care of their children is distracting them from what they "really" want to do.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 10:19:27 AM
How many of you believe “the bearing of children as one of the most rewarding and joyous experiences of a woman's life.”

This varies from woman to woman, but if you took a poll today, you would probably get this most common response:

Depends when, depends where. Day to day not always is the joy and reward apparent. But as your child grows and reaches certain milestones in their life, there is no greater joy or reward that one can have.

-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child crawl for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child walk for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child talk for the first time.
-Ask a parent what it feels like to see their child getting married.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 12:52:37 PM
The pain (curse) is about labor not about raising children, correct?
The commentators(albeit Jewish ones) say it's going on both. And you asked about curses
CV +1
SamKey what cheder did you go to ;)?
one that taught רש"י
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 02, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/eve-midrash-and-aggadah (http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/eve-midrash-and-aggadah)
Quote
  The Rabbis then expand upon this punishment: “Your pangs” is the anguish of impregnation; “in childbearing” is the suffering of pregnancy; “in pain” is the affliction of miscarriages; “shall you bear” is the pain of childbirth; “children” is the suffering involved in the rearing of children   
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 02, 2013, 01:11:03 PM
I commend your post, and there is good advice in there (nothing beats actual experience).

However, I would delve a bit deeper to get to the root of the "problem".

I think that many parents find their children to be "hard" because the parents don't find dealing with their children to be a mission in and of itself. Today, parents just want to distract their children as much as possible, so that the parents can do their own thing. Let's face it, we just want to get our kids into bed so that we can get time for ourselves.

Years ago, this was not an issue. The stay at home parent (usually the mom) fully accepted taking care of their children to be a mission in and of itself, and did it the same way you would do any job that you were dedicated to (and much more..).

What happened over the years is two things:

1. Society basically convinced young people that parenting is boring and not accomplishing anything. It's far better to go out into the world and "do something" with your life.

Now, even though Frum people supposedly "don't buy into this", it still had and continues to have a powerful affect on young Frum couples. These couples have children, as that is what is expected, but they don't fully believe that investing every minute with the children is an accomplishment. They therefore find having children extremely difficult. When you have to spend your whole day taking care of your kids and running after them instead of doing what YOU want to do, NO KIDDING it is hard!

Women are told today that being a stay at home mom is basically being a loser and a slave. Idiots like Sheryl Sandberg basically make women feel stupid for wanting to spend their life taking care of their children. As a result, women who are by nature very nurturing and kind begin feeling miserable after having children. They feel trapped and unhappy. How should they not feel like they are "in jail" when their child basically ties up their whole day!

2. There are too many distractions today. For some reason, couples are finding that they need to take more and more vacations in order to keep the peace in the home. Parents used to take vacations for the kids benefit, today, it's for their own benefit. So if the kids are fussy along the way, it "ruined" their vacation. (Ironic isn't it? How could the children ruin YOUR vacation if it was all about them?)

If you are feeling that your children are difficult, ask yourself if it is really because they are truly difficult, or because you want to get back to what you want to do, and they are simply getting in the way.

+100. very wise words!

I don't remember if this aspect was brought up before but given that we are on a forum mostly dedicated to travelling and seeing the world, it is easy to see why having children can make things difficult.

For sure young people today are travelling places way more than people who are in their 30's ever did. Doing that with children (and enjoying it) is practically impossible and can end up making people feel very trapped.

It is sad that women (and men) are made to feel inferior for having children. Social media like Facebook has increased this by serving (IMO) to provoke one response: Jealousy. This website consists of people posting pictures of themselves partying and having fun and merely makes others feel lonely and sad. Then they try to outdo the others with an even more glamorous picture.

However, they are all lonely and depressed while tricking all the others into thinking they are living the life of a celebrity. What is the point in that??
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 01:31:38 PM
However, they are all lonely and depressed while tricking all the others into thinking they are living the life of a celebrity. What is the point in that??
Look at like miles/points against cash back. Why can’t you have both? If you want to marry young then go for it. Then party like there is no tomorrow until you are thirty. Start having children and take on the responsibilities that comes with it. You can still have nice vacations with your children while they are growing up. Once they reach a certain age you can have vacations without the kids if you so choose.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 02, 2013, 01:40:40 PM
Zale, I Disagree.

The fact of the matter is, having children completely disrupts and changes your life. There are some things you've been accustomed to doing and ways you've been acting which are either no longer possible or are extremely difficult. Sometimes that hurts.

No matter how dedicated you are to your "new mission," it's often really hard work.

Taking care of kids 24/7/365 is physically and emotionally draining, just because you're doing the right thing that doesn't mean it's easy. And in a sense it is like being in jail, being completely beholden to someone/something else, not always being able to do what you want to do.

Even if you do recognize and accept that this is now your "mission," that doesn't mean it's not going to be difficult (i.e. really hard work) and painful.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 01:50:36 PM
I am just floored by some of these posts. I understand traveling with kids is extremely challenging. What I don’t understand is not being able to go out and have a good time. If you and DW want to go out one day/evening alone is it that hard to find a family member or a babysitter to watch the kids? It would seem since many here are part of large families the possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 01:54:02 PM
I am just floored by some of these posts. I understand traveling with kids is extremely challenging. What I don’t understand is not being able to go out and have a good time. If you and DW want to go out one day/evening alone is it that hard to find a family member or a babysitter to watch the kids? It would seem since many here are part of large families the possibilities are endless.
As you probably suspect, many here get married at 20-23 and have Rabbis that don't allow the use of birth control until a later point in time.

But I agree with you, people should try to find a better life/family balance and nights out definitely help.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
+1
-1 The meforshim mention raising children too.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 02:25:13 PM
Zale, I Disagree.

The fact of the matter is, having children completely disrupts and changes your life. There are some things you've been accustomed to doing and ways you've been acting which are either no longer possible or are extremely difficult. Sometimes that hurts.

No matter how dedicated you are to your "new mission," it's often really hard work.

Taking care of kids 24/7/365 is physically and emotionally draining, just because you're doing the right thing that doesn't mean it's easy. And in a sense it is like being in jail, being completely beholden to someone/something else, not always being able to do what you want to do.

Even if you do recognize and accept that this is now your "mission," that doesn't mean it's not going to be difficult (i.e. really hard work) and painful.

Doesn't becoming, say, a doctor change your life too? Doesn't it disrupt your life? Getting called to the ER 3am for an emergency, staying late at the office etc... Yes, "you can always quit", but can you really?

Having a hard job is hard work too. Being in the military is hard work, being a pilot is hard work, being a doctor is hard work.

True, they are not 24/7 but in reality, children are not 24/7 either. If your child is on a sleep schedule, and they sleep through the night, then the child is only 13/7. Once the child is old enough to go to daycare, they are only 5/5 (for most of the week).

Nobody, and I mean nobody, said that it was easy to raise children. But your attitude toward it has a significant impact. If you feel that you as a person are really supposed to be free 24/7 to do what you like to do, then I have to say that I fully understand why you feel the way you do. But if you see children as an actual accomplishment, [it will be HARD work, don't get me wrong], but your attitude won't be that you feel imprisoned.

I agree that sometimes (and for some more than others) you will need a break from your kids, just like sometimes you need a vacation from work.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 02:27:09 PM
Responding in this thread w/r/t this post.  A night to yourself is incredibly refreshing.
I am just floored by some of these posts. I understand traveling with kids is extremely challenging. What I don’t understand is not being able to go out and have a good time. If you and DW want to go out one day/evening alone is it that hard to find a family member or a babysitter to watch the kids? It would seem since many here are part of large families the possibilities are endless.

Hyatt Regency Cleveland VIP Suite.

Forgive me for being nosey, but if you live in Cleveland, why would you be staying at a hotel there? Or you just have so many darn Hyatt points that you don't even need to wait until you travel?

I ask only because I am sure you have an awesome answer and would enjoy envying your awesomeness.
Was my wife's birthday. While last year that meant a trip (with Rafi) to the Andaz 5th NYC, Cathay First, and the Fairmont Pac Rim, that's tougher at 38 weeks ;)

So we had a day and night out on the town and had more fun that we've ever had without stepping onto a plane.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 02:30:46 PM
As you probably suspect, many here get married at 20-23 and have Rabbis that don't allow the use of birth control until a later point in time.

But I agree with you, people should try to find a better life/family balance and nights out definitely help.

It's a complex "5th Shulchan Aruch" type of thing. Frankly, I never understood the 5th Shulchan Aruch.

This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 02:34:19 PM
This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
No Apikorsus. Many Rabbis pasken that way, especially in today's day and age with an ever-increasing divorce rate.
YLORMV.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 02, 2013, 02:35:05 PM
It's a complex "5th Shulchan Aruch" type of thing. Frankly, I never understood the 5th Shulchan Aruch.

This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
::)
It's a real halachik issue and your feeling has no relevance. Doesn't mean whatyou said is right or wrong. But your opinion is irrelevant
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 02:37:17 PM
So we had a day and night out on the town and had more fun that we've ever had without stepping onto a plane.
I know we come from totally different backgrounds but I was starting to think I was from a different planet. I glad someone here gets what I am talking about.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 02, 2013, 02:42:30 PM
::)
It's a real halachik issue and your feeling has no relevance. Doesn't mean whatyou said is right or wrong. But your opinion is irrelevant

Thank you, I already knew that, thus the mention of possible apikorsus.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 03:08:40 PM
It's a complex "5th Shulchan Aruch" type of thing. Frankly, I never understood the 5th Shulchan Aruch.

This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
shu"o E"H siman 1 is hilchos peru urebu. Not to say that there are not heteirim to push of the mitzva aseh mideorayso, its simply not a "fifth shulchan oruch".
Title: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: metziah on September 02, 2013, 03:43:42 PM
No Apikorsus. Many Rabbis pasken that way, especially in today's day and age with an ever-increasing divorce rate.
YLORMV.
+100, I even know of one particular Rosh Yeshiva that makes all his talmidim go on BC for the first year that they're married. IMIAHO( in my innocent and humble opinion) not such a bad idea to implement.obviously this particular R"Y had certain type of talmidim. But in today's day and age a lot of people's(your right not everyone) marriages would benefit from this.
Don't get me wrong, I think children are the biggest blessing in this world and are worth everything we do and go through for them. But.....just putting it out there.
In certain communities where it's basically a race to see who can have more children quicker and if c"v you aren't expecting immediately following your wedding people look at you and wonder..... People can't even take into account if it might be better for their marriage to have a period of just the two of them to bond/sort things out/adjust and then be fully ready to be the best parents that they can be. Just my 2c's.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 04:34:16 PM
People can't even take into account if it might be better for their marriage to have a period of just the two of them to bond/sort things out/adjust and then be fully ready to be the best parents that they can be. Just my 2c's.
Not to mention that in many communities you barely know the person you're marrying and its hard to get to know someone when they're nauseous/throwing up and generally piling on stress onto an entirely new phase in one's life...I have several friends/classmates who had kids right away and the added stress undoubtedly contributed to their divorces...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 04:37:43 PM
Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
:o
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: george on September 02, 2013, 04:42:58 PM
Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
TMI, but if that's true it makes me quite sad :( :( :(
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 04:44:22 PM
Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
:)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 02, 2013, 04:48:11 PM
:)
What's the joke?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 04:50:57 PM
Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
I wouldn't say the typical Chosson is like that though there probably are some...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 04:55:03 PM
I wouldn't say the typical Chosson is like that though there probably are some...
Somewhere between some and typical then ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: rots5 on September 02, 2013, 05:09:15 PM
+100, I even know of one particular Rosh Yeshiva that makes all his talmidim go on BC for the first year that they're married. IMIAHO( in my innocent and humble opinion) not such a bad idea to implement.obviously this particular R"Y had certain type of talmidim. But in today's day and age a lot of people's(your right not everyone) marriages would benefit from this.
Don't get me wrong, I think children are the biggest blessing in this world and are worth everything we do and go through for them. But.....just putting it out there.
In certain communities where it's basically a race to see who can have more children quicker and if c"v you aren't expecting immediately following your wedding people look at you and wonder..... People can't even take into account if it might be better for their marriage to have a period of just the two of them to bond/sort things out/adjust and then be fully ready to be the best parents that they can be. Just my 2c's.
you have a very valid point. And the RY prob is a smart man if he is dealing with those certain people. But i find the issue is now a days couples don't realize to take adtv of the situation that its just the two of them without kids. There are people i know who i respect very much, who don't have kids and they take full advantage of the fact in a good way, they go for walks and go on vacations and learn how to bond with one another. While I've personally have seen where couples just turn into such miserable people bec they didnt have kid 9 months after there wedding.

I started noticing lately some couples who just got married def need time to acclimate to one another. The prob is that they are so used "friends friends friends" they don't realize its ok to live a life just the two of them.

 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 05:13:24 PM
What's the joke?
I thought the part I bolded was funny. I guess you didn't?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 02, 2013, 05:15:56 PM
I thought the part I bolded was funny. I guess you didn't?
No.
Is that a private joke between you and Dan?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: metziah on September 02, 2013, 05:23:40 PM

Never mind that the typical chosson who comes to the chasanim institute in CLE thinks we're dealing with eggs like those from a chicken and are convinced that one can't get pregnant on the first night  ::)
I think they tell them that to put an emphasis on the fact that nothing is wrong with them if they don't get it right the first time.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 02, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
This might come across as Apikorsus, but I believe that if one (or their spouse) doesn't feel mentally and physically ready to have a child, they should be able to use it.
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2013, 05:26:37 PM
I think they tell them that to put an emphasis on the fact that nothing is wrong with them if they don't get it right the first time.
They don't tell them anything. There's just no education whatsoever in the system for how to date, how to deal with a wife, with kids, etc, etc.
So everything is just secondhand misinfo.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: metziah on September 02, 2013, 05:27:18 PM

you have a very valid point. And the RY prob is a smart man if he is dealing with those certain people. But i find the issue is now a days couples don't realize to take adtv of the situation that its just the two of them without kids. There are people i know who i respect very much, who don't have kids and they take full advantage of the fact in a good way, they go for walks and go on vacations and learn how to bond with one another. While I've personally have seen where couples just turn into such miserable people bec they didnt have kid 9 months after there wedding.

I started noticing lately some couples who just got married def need time to acclimate to one another. The prob is that they are so used "friends friends friends" they don't realize its ok to live a life just the two of them.

 
That's another one of the many reasons why things are way different today. The "friends" aspect. That aspect has so many branches to it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: metziah on September 02, 2013, 05:33:55 PM




Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
Well that's why(according to the Torah) פרו ורבו ו ומלאו את הארץ we are put on this world. Lets not lose focus why we are here, this discussion was about why things might be different today. But no one can argue that the world was created for generations of עם ישראל.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 05:41:53 PM

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
Look up the Shu"a mentioned above, I don't have it handy now but pretty sure it discusses it.

They don't tell them anything. There's just no education whatsoever in the system for how to date, how to deal with a wife, with kids, etc, etc.
So everything is just secondhand misinfo.
+too much
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 05:43:00 PM
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
There is clearly a requirement to have as many children as possible, chazal learn this from the posuk of "laerev al tanach yodecho".
This topic is not at all a "Fifth chelek of shulchan oruch topic". All of these halochos and heteirim are discussed at great length in shulchan oruch E'H siman alef.
The consensus is that one cannot push of the mitzva for financial considerations.
See the B"S seif katan 17 where he says that if having kids will cause fights, one can push off...
Point is, speak to a competent Rov to discus any personal considerations. Many times though, if the couple would have healthier hashkofos they would not have some sheilos or hetirim because  some things would not bother them so much. This is where hashkafa gets in to this topic. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 02, 2013, 05:44:03 PM
No.
Is that a private joke between you and Dan?
I don't think Dan was making a joke but feel free to ask him. I thought it was funny.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: metziah on September 02, 2013, 05:50:59 PM

Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?
With this you are really touching on a completely different discussion. Every person is different with where they are holding in their level of emunah and bitachon. Each person knows but most of all, he has to know Truthfully where he's holding in that regard. There are some people who truly believe that with each kid comes more brocha in parnasah nothing wrong with that its just a very high מדרגה.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 06:03:02 PM

shu"o E"H siman 1 is hilchos peru urebu. Not to say that there are not heteirim to push of the mitzva aseh mideorayso, its simply not a "fifth shulchan oruch".

So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 06:06:34 PM
So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?
Where does it say she is obligated?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 06:08:33 PM

Where does it say she is obligated?

She's causing her husband to be oiver on a D'oiraisah.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 06:29:03 PM
P'ru Ur'vu is an obligation on the man, the wife has no obligation to have relations if it will cause her discumfort/pain/annoyance whatever.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 06:30:43 PM
So what's the heter for a woman to decline martial relations on a particular night without calling a LOR?
See taz there, also see siman 76.6.

Are we really going to study hilchos P"V beiyun over here?  :o
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 06:32:32 PM
She's causing her husband to be oiver on a D'oiraisah.
Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 06:43:15 PM

Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed

Yes.  I was looking into seforim that deal with this topic but couldn't find any.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
Yes.  I was looking into seforim that deal with this topic but couldn't find any.
Shulchan oruch and all the nosei keilim in even haezer siman 1 and 76  talk about this. Does that not count??
IIRC they address your specific issue also.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 06:50:37 PM

Shulchan oruch and all the nosei keilim in even haezer siman 1 and 76  talk about this. Does that not count??
IIRC they address your specific issue also.

When is Artscroll coming out with a book?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 02, 2013, 07:01:01 PM
. There are some people who truly believe that with each kid comes more brocha in parnasah nothing wrong with that its just a very high מדרגה.
Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?

If someone comes collecting because instead of giving ten percent to charity they gave 50%, you would laugh at them. How is it different if they come because they chose to have children beyond their means?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 07:21:14 PM
Are you genuinely interested in this sugiya? because you raise good points... If you are interested take the time to study it in depth, all your kashas are addressed
Does he have Kushyos or Terutzim? ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 07:26:48 PM

Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?

If someone comes collecting because instead of giving ten percent to charity they gave 50%, you would laugh at them. How is it different if they come because they chose to have children beyond their means?

Maybe if they had complete bitachon they wouldn't need the help.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 02, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
Maybe if they had complete bitachon they wouldn't need the help.
Try telling them that instead of giving them your dollar.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 02, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
Really,  explain then all the people collecting money to help marry off their 9 kids. Are they lying?
That's assuming their financial situation would be better if they had fewer children...

Increase in brocha doesn't necessarily have to mean that it will be relatively better
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 02, 2013, 08:00:13 PM
That's assuming their financial situation would be better if they had fewer children...

Increase in brocha doesn't necessarily have to mean that it will be relatively better
True.

And by the same logic everyone could just quit all their jobs because we have no way of knowing that we wouldn't have just as much money anyway, right?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 08:02:31 PM
Trust me, you will be hard pressed to find a LOR to allow any leniency due to financial constraints. The whole discussion is moot.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2013, 08:05:28 PM

Trust me, you will be hard pressed to find a LOR to allow any leniency due to financial constraints. The whole discussion is moot.

Agree. There are a minority that believe that financial constraints can lead to marriage and mental issues...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 08:06:17 PM
When is Artscroll coming out with a book?
Lol. Artscroll made everyone the talmid chachom.  NOT!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 02, 2013, 08:07:12 PM
Agree. There are a minority that believe that financial constraints can lead to marriage and mental issues...
The heter will be based on the marriage and mental issues, not purely financial.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 02, 2013, 08:14:37 PM
And by the same logic everyone could just quit all their jobs because we have no way of knowing that we wouldn't have just as much money anyway, right?
In a sense, yes. You can't totally quit your job and expect money to fall from heaven, (i.e. you need to make a keli,) but it's important to realize that ultimately it's Hashem who determines how much you'll make.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 02, 2013, 08:38:48 PM
I see it in reality: the more kids I have the more I earn.
With each additional child I get an increase in food stamps, a raise in section 8 and so on.
There's clearly a god in heaven, rewarding us for following his commands.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 02, 2013, 08:47:07 PM
I see it in reality: the more kids I have the more I earn.
With each additional child I get an increase in food stamps, a raise in section 8 and so on...
not to mention another SS# ;D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Super Speed on September 02, 2013, 11:56:48 PM
Where does finances fit into all this? Having a kid costs a fortune :-(

I'm convinced many people aren't having children only because of the financial burden. Where's the obligation printed (in this fifth shulchan orech) that the parents have to bear the burden of deep financial distress to have more kids?

Actually can someone point out where there is ANY obligation to have more than one boy and one girl?? I'm pretty sure that's the only requirement.
I'm embarrassed that I read this topic and even more embarrassed that I'm responding. It seems to me a lot of people here  don't believe in G-d. Who do you think supports you gives you life, money, happiness? Only the one above and do you think its hard for him to help you financially take care of a kid. We say in bentching that he supports everyone of us, do you not believe that? R"H is coming when your parnassa will be decided by him not by you and if you have more kids he will give you more even if you can't see it. Fact. Ksiva Vechasima Tova.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 12:01:18 AM
I'm embarrassed that I read this topic and even more embarrassed that I'm responding. It seems to me a lot of people here  don't believe in G-d. Who do you think supports you gives you life, money, happiness? Only the one above and do you think its hard for him to help you financially take care of a kid. We say in bentching that he supports everyone of us, do you not believe that? R"H is coming when your parnassa will be decided by him not by you and if you have more kids he will give you more even if you can't see it. Fact. Ksiva Vechasima Tova.

If you have more kids he won't necessarily give you more.
That's not what we believe.
That's why there are rich people and poor people.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Super Speed on September 03, 2013, 12:08:31 AM
If you have more kids he won't necessarily give you more.
That's not what we believe.
That's why there are rich people and poor people.
That's called Kfirah IM(ns)HO. If your poor you'll be poor with no kids or 10 and same for rich. He provides everyone with what they need. The people who come around collecting would need tzedakkah for something else if they didn't have kids, like doctor bills R"L.
(I Bl"n will not look back at this topic again as I feel bad I even looked at it to begin with. I'm shocked to learn that there are yidden that really think this way, forget about all the other garbage written upthread about how hard it is etc.)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 12:09:58 AM
That's called Kfirah IM(ns)HO. If your poor you'll be poor with no kids or 10 and same for rich. He provides everyone with what they need. The people who come around collecting would need tzedakkah for something else if they didn't have kids, like doctor bills R"L.
I wouldn't have said it so strongly, but +1.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 12:17:53 AM
The chovos halevavos is very clear about the chiyuv hishtadlus and being responsible when it comes to health and finances. Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same? Not saying that having more kids is irresponsible (although I certainly see situations when I would think it is (when a meshulach comes collecting for his ten kids, three who are blind, two who have cp, etc. and he has no means tosupport any of it)) but please cool the rhetoric. And calling someone a kofer is not something to be done lightly and has serious ramifications
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 12:19:03 AM
I don't know that there is one straight answer. Emunah and your relationship with Gd are all personal things. One person may feel that even though he doesn't have the money that Gd will provide for 'one more kid' while another may feel that it's his responsibility to not have another at a specific time when he cannot afford it.
I personally feel like choosing to not have more children when you feel like you can't afford it falls under 'Vchai Bahem'.
But again everyone's emunah is different. Not necessarily greater or lesser even.
 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
The chovos halevavos is very clear about the chiyuv hishtadlus and being responsible when it comes to health and finances. Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same? Not saying that this is irresponsible but please cool the rhetoric. And calling someone a kofer is not something to be done lightly and has serious ramifications
Not saying I necessarily disagree, but you're equating buying a Lexus or paying for F with having more kids?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 12:21:44 AM
Not saying I necessarily disagree, but you're equating buying a Lexus or paying for F with having more kids?
No and I clearly stated that I don't (it's clearer in my edit)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 12:26:11 AM
Would you say if a person bought a Lexus convertible or paid revenue (ch"v) for a cx f ticket and couldn't afford it that God will provide exactly the same as he would have otherwise and he would have just the same?

I fail to see how H' giving additional brochos when you have more children = an inability to squander what he does provide to you.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 12:27:14 AM
I fail to see how H' giving additional brochos when you have more children = an inability to squander what he does provide to you.
See my example from three words after you quoted me. And I agree most of the times it's not true. But to call someone a kofer for saying that is ludicrous. And to talk down to people and spew hateful rhetoric is inappropriate where I come from
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 12:31:34 AM
See my example from three words after you quoted me. And I agree most of the times it's not true. But to call someone a kofer for saying that is ludicrous. And to talk down to people and spew hateful rhetoric is inappropriate where I come from
Yup.
I think many Jews would probably have larger families if they didn't have tuition worries, etc.  So to throw around kofer is quite the accusation against a large swath of frum jews.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 12:43:47 AM
See my example from three words after you quoted me.
What does that example show? nothing.
There are plenty of rich people with many kids and poor people with no kids.

To say that the reason a person is poor is because he has many kids, not because that's what Hashem "decreed" for him does show a certain lack of emunah and bitachon. I wouldn't go so far as to call it kefirah though...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 12:47:46 AM
What does that example show? nothing.
There are plenty of rich people with many kids and poor people with no kids.

To say that the reason a person is poor is because he has many kids, not because that's what Hashem "decreed" for him does show a certain lack of emunah and bitachon. I wouldn't go so far as to call it kefirah though...
I think in said theoretical situation it would be irresponsible to have more children and that would adversely effect one's parnasah. Again, generally I agree with you. But to say everything is purely gzeiras haboreh I think goes against chovos halevavos. Man's actions have an effect
And to call it kefirah and yell at people and put on a holier than thou persona to me is gross
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 01:02:29 AM
And to call it kefirah and yell at people and put on a holier than thou persona to me is gross
Agreed, I said from the beginning that I don't agree with the strong language.

But to say everything is purely gzeiras haboreh I think goes against chovos halevavos. Man's actions have an effect
Like I said upthread:
You can't totally quit your job and expect money to fall from heaven, (i.e. you need to make a keli,) but it's important to realize that ultimately it's Hashem who determines how much you'll make.
Of course you need to do your hishtadlus, but sometimes his plans are different than ours and he usually wins in those cases :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 01:05:21 AM
I think in said theoretical situation it would be irresponsible to have more children and that would adversely effect one's parnasah.
Unless you believe additional children brings you additional brochos...

(Incidentally, in that case I would agree with the irresponsible part, but not necessarily because "that would adversely effect one's parnasah")

Anywho, it's time for me to call it a night...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 01:05:44 AM
Agreed, I said from the beginning that I don't agree with the strong language.
Like I said upthread:Of course you need to do your hishtadlus, but sometimes his plans are different than ours and he usually wins in those cases :)
So then we agree. Not sure why we're arguing. I guess it's in the airwaves tonight
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on September 03, 2013, 04:47:17 AM
Saying that you're not going to have kids due to financial constraints means you don't believe god is the one who provides (he commands us to have kids regardless of financial situation) which makes you a kofer. It's pretty black and white. Not sure what I'm missing. We are commanded to have kids regardless of financial situation, AFAIK the is no "though shall buy a Lexus" or "though shalt not fly economy"
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 08:39:49 AM
1. That is called a chisaron in emunah, not kefirah (if a person works eighty hour weeks because he this that how much he works matters,  is he a kofer?
2. After a person discharges his biblical obligation of a boy and a girl, he now has a chiyuv midivrei sofrim of la'erev al tenach yadecha. If he is in a situation where it becomes irresponsible to have more children,  as determined by a rav (see my example above) I do believe he can adversely effect his economic situation by having more children.  Does that make me a kofer?
3. It used to take a lot to be a kofer. Apparently nowadays every Tom,  Dick and Harry is one.chazal have say if someone call someone else a rasha he can yored imo lchayav-all the more so if you call him a kofer. I would tread carefully
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on September 03, 2013, 08:51:10 AM
1. That is called a chisaron in emunah, not kefirah (if a person works eighty hour weeks because he this that how much he works matters,  is he a kofer?
2. After a person discharges his biblical obligation of a boy and a girl, he now has a chiyuv midivrei sofrim of la'erev al tenach yadecha. If he is in a situation where it becomes irresponsible to have more children,  as determined by a rav (see my example above) I do believe he can adversely effect his economic situation by having more children.  Does that make me a kofer?
3. It used to take a lot to be a kofer. Apparently nowadays every Tom,  Dick and Harry is one.chazal have say if someone call someone else a rasha he can yored imo lchayav-all the more so if you call him a kofer. I would tread carefully
1. One who is being oiver tachlis habriya because of lack of emuna, is different than a ba'al dimyon
2. No competent rov will give a heter for financial reasons. If finances are causing issues due to chisaron emuna, that is an entirely different ballbark.
3. That is referring to someone calling a specific person a name. Are you saying anytime chazal or any meforosh says that "if someone does/says xyz he's a kofer", then that pirush is a kofer?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 10:25:40 AM
Is it a chesoron in emunah to sign up for food stamps or only to get a job?  :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 10:36:28 AM
IMECO (In my extremely controversial opinion) Hashem has already given us extreme wealth. This comes in the form of living in the richest country in history with record low levels of anti semitism and endless opportunity to achieve financial success. The final step which is going out to get that success is up to us.

If your emuna consists of believing that Hashem is going to shovel hundred dollar bills into your pocket then that is very foolish.

If Hashem placed some people in front of a gold mine and stuffed a pickax in their hand they would  refuse to dig thinking that it would be a lack of faith.

America is a gold mine.

Start digging.

P.S. The people Hashem really  made poor are people with disabilities and disease, etc.)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 11:07:10 AM
No one says you don't have to work (well no one with his head on straight).
The Pasuk says וברכך ה' אלוקיך בכל אשר תעשה. That teaches us 2 things. a) there has a to be a תעשה, we have to do something for the Brachah to come down through and b) the source of the Brachah is not what WE do, rather it's the Brachah of Hashem working through our Keli.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 03, 2013, 11:26:25 AM
IMECO (In my extremely controversial opinion) Hashem has already given us extreme wealth. This comes in the form of living in the richest country in history with record low levels of anti semitism and endless opportunity to achieve financial success. The final step which is going out to get that success is up to us.

If your emuna consists of believing that Hashem is going to shovel hundred dollar bills into your pocket then that is very foolish.

If Hashem placed some people in front of a gold mine and stuffed a pickax in their hand they would  refuse to dig thinking that it would be a lack of faith.

America is a gold mine.

Start digging.

P.S. The people Hashem really  made poor are people with disabilities and disease, etc.)
Wake up, many people are digging all day and only get dirt.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 11:33:32 AM
Wake up, many people are digging all day and only get dirt.
What's your miles/point total for this year?

Maybe they are digging in the wrong place.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 11:37:49 AM
What's your miles/point total for this year?

Maybe they are digging in the wrong place.

There are plenty of people who work like a dog their whole lives and still don't have enough to support their families.

Miles and Points? Lets say 20k. For some that may cover 2 of their kids tuition.

It sounds like a pretty naive statement.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 11:51:51 AM
There are plenty of people who work like a dog their whole lives and still don't have enough to support their families.

Miles and Points? Lets say 20k. For some that may cover 2 of their kids tuition.

It sounds like a pretty naive statement.

Why naive? 20 k for some side work? That is pretty nice. I know when I share these great deals and ways to collect points with family/friends they often laugh at me or dismiss it. Meanwhile they are struggling.

Why are people so dismissive of opportunities to help themselves? You see it everywhere. Especially when people complain about financial difficulties they never want to hear advice. They just want sympathy.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 03, 2013, 12:50:12 PM
They don't tell them anything. There's just no education whatsoever in the system for how to date, how to deal with a wife, with kids, etc, etc.
So everything is just secondhand misinfo.

A marriage does not come with a user's manual. And you can't Google the instructions either.

Every marriage is a world of its own, and what works for one marriage might not work for another.

Now, there are some general facts that are handy to know in advance, but to an unmarried individual, these facts go into one ear and out the other. (Imagine reading a setup manual for a treadmill when you don't yet own one. The manual works best when you have the treadmill in front of you, and you work side by side with the manual.) Therefore, the best time to get educated about how to deal with your spouse and your children is when you actually have a spouse and children. The classes on these things should be AFTER one is married.

In addition, there should be someone you trust and respect with all your heart and soul that you can talk to about marriage issues. After all, every issue requires its own unique remedy.

There are far too many pathetic idiots who believe that after being disrespectful and unsympathetic to their wife for an entire week they can bring home flowers on Friday and everything will suddenly sort itself out. First, not every woman likes flowers on a weekly basis. Second, flowers will not remedy the problem of you being an idiot and not helping around the house.



Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on September 03, 2013, 01:08:29 PM
A marriage does not come with a user's manual. And you can't Google the instructions either.

Every marriage is a world of its own, and what works for one marriage might not work for another.

Now, there are some general facts that are handy to know in advance, but to an unmarried individual, these facts go into one ear and out the other. (Imagine reading a setup manual for a treadmill when you don't yet own one. The manual works best when you have the treadmill in front of you, and you work side by side with the manual.) Therefore, the best time to get educated about how to deal with your spouse and your children is when you actually have a spouse and children. The classes on these things should be AFTER one is married.

In addition, there should be someone you trust and respect with all your heart and soul that you can talk to about marriage issues. After all, every issue requires its own unique remedy.

There are far too many pathetic idiots who believe that after being disrespectful and unsympathetic to their wife for an entire week they can bring home flowers on Friday and everything will suddenly sort itself out. First, not every woman likes flowers on a weekly basis. Second, flowers will not remedy the problem of you being an idiot and not helping around the house.

Mostly +1, but I don't think education is useless in the 'before' stage. Less useful than during, but not useless.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 01:12:04 PM
Mostly +1, but I don't think education is useless in the 'before' stage. Less useful than during, but not useless.
+1
I know of a few Chosson and Kallah teachers who offer "followup" classes a month or 2 after the wedding.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 03, 2013, 01:24:56 PM
The manual works best when you have the treadmill in front of you, and you work side by side with the manual.) Therefore, the best time to get educated about how to deal with your spouse and your children is when you actually have a spouse and children. The classes on these things should be AFTER one is married.
Well said!
I told my daughter to buy a car first then I will teach her how to drive.
I told my son to buy the gun first then I will teach him to shoot.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 01:26:56 PM
Well said!
I told my daughter to buy a car first then I will teach her how to drive.
I told my son to buy the gun first then I will teach him to shoot.
As usual hard to tell if you're serious or not :P

But the car is a great analogy. When I got my license my driving instructor told me "Now is time for you to START learning how to drive"...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 01:31:09 PM
As usual hard to tell if you're serious or not :P
Hard to tell?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 01:35:24 PM
A marriage does not come with a user's manual. And you can't Google the instructions either.

Every marriage is a world of its own, and what works for one marriage might not work for another.

Now, there are some general facts that are handy to know in advance, but to an unmarried individual, these facts go into one ear and out the other. (Imagine reading a setup manual for a treadmill when you don't yet own one. The manual works best when you have the treadmill in front of you, and you work side by side with the manual.) Therefore, the best time to get educated about how to deal with your spouse and your children is when you actually have a spouse and children. The classes on these things should be AFTER one is married.

In addition, there should be someone you trust and respect with all your heart and soul that you can talk to about marriage issues. After all, every issue requires its own unique remedy.

There are far too many pathetic idiots who believe that after being disrespectful and unsympathetic to their wife for an entire week they can bring home flowers on Friday and everything will suddenly sort itself out. First, not every woman likes flowers on a weekly basis. Second, flowers will not remedy the problem of you being an idiot and not helping around the house.
You're talking about bochurim who have spent years in yeshiva.  Now maybe this is because I have 5 brothers and no sisters, but I never had a real conversation with a girl before I started dating.

To be told for 23 years to stay away from the other sex and then be thrown into that is daunting.  I can't understand how in 8 years of yeshiva they never managed to cover that once.

Then again I don't understand how yeshivas putting out pulpit rabbis or shluchim don't offer a class in public speaking and writing.  These are basic skills that are sorely lacking.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 03, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Now maybe this is because I have 5 brothers and no sisters, but I never had a real conversation with a girl before I started dating.
Was this your choice, not allowed or the situation never presented itself?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
Was this your choice, not allowed or the situation never presented itself?
It would be grounds for expulsion from yeshiva.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 02:59:58 PM
Why naive? 20 k for some side work? That is pretty nice. I know when I share these great deals and ways to collect points with family/friends they often laugh at me or dismiss it. Meanwhile they are struggling.

Why are people so dismissive of opportunities to help themselves? You see it everywhere. Especially when people complain about financial difficulties they never want to hear advice. They just want sympathy.

Yes there are many people who don't want to help themselves. There are those that complain about lack of funds and don't try working harder or don't work at all. I'm not talking about those people. There are plenty of people that work hard, that appreciate sound advice, that do what they can to the best of their ability and still lack finances to support their family fully.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: elikay on September 03, 2013, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: yehuda S link=topic=23873.msg1#msg1 date=1378222412
Maybe they are digging in the wrong place.
[/quote

See kiddushin 80a (CMIIW) says something to the effect of the following : לעולם יתפלל אדם למי שה עושר שלו. שאין לך אומנות שאין בה עניות ועשירות. It is clear that all you do is a chiyuv hishtadlus and hashem is the one who provides. And for the record, I know people who have one child and work long hours who unfortunately cannot make ends meet.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 03, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
You're talking about bochurim who have spent years in yeshiva.  Now maybe this is because I have 5 brothers and no sisters, but I never had a real conversation with a girl before I started dating.

To be told for 23 years to stay away from the other sex and then be thrown into that is daunting.  I can't understand how in 8 years of yeshiva they never managed to cover that once.

Then again I don't understand how yeshivas putting out pulpit rabbis or shluchim don't offer a class in public speaking and writing.  These are basic skills that are sorely lacking.

As if kids that come out of co-ed high schools have much better marriages.

What exactly do those kids know about talking to girls that a Bochur does not? Perhaps they are less intimidated of the girls they grew up with in their own class, but if they see a pretty girl in a bar that they have never met before they are likely to be just as intimidated.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 03:23:29 PM
I don't think it would be so bad to teach boys the art of chivalry. Girls like to be treated nicely. And if you teach them things like that at a young age it won't be so forced (or non existent ) when they are older.

I think young people today need to be taught the art of communication. It seems to be lacking in our society now a days. And missing from our teachings in our school systems.  It seems in many schools learning how to talk about your feelings is focused on in Nursery and not a year after. And learning to talk with others. And to work things out. This are all things that can be focused on starting at a very young age.

Unfortunately a lot of things that would help many marriages are taught in the house.  Learning to not be selfish. Learning to help others. Learning to compromise.  Being a mentsch . Being happy with what you have. Not being spoiled. Things parents need to be teaching kids from the very beginning.


 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 03:27:24 PM
As if kids that come out of co-ed high schools have much better marriages.

What exactly do those kids know about talking to girls that a Bochur does not? Perhaps they are less intimidated of the girls they grew up with in their own class, but if they see a pretty girl in a bar that they have never met before they are likely to be just as intimidated.

I'm not saying one is less intimidated than the other but I've worked in quite a number of schools ranging from Yeshivish to Mizrachi to Conservative and one thing I've noticed is the less "religious" you got the more articulate the kids got, the more comfortable they were talking to adults and knowing how to make conversation.  They also tend to have nicer manners when dealing with others.  I can't imagine that doesn't help with dating and life in general.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 03, 2013, 03:28:13 PM
Unfortunately a lot of things that would help many marriages are taught in the house.  Learning to not be selfish. Learning to help others. Learning to compromise.  Being a mentsch . Being happy with what you have. Not being spoiled. Things parents need to be teaching kids from the very beginning.
Can I get an AMEN!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yuneeq on September 03, 2013, 03:28:50 PM
Unfortunately a lot of things that would help many marriages are taught in the house.  Learning to not be selfish. Learning to help others. Learning to compromise.  Being a mentsch . Being happy with what you have. Not being spoiled. Things parents need to be teaching kids from the very beginning.

Next thread:
The Truth About Parents - WARNING... ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 03, 2013, 03:29:45 PM
Next thread:
The Truth About Parents - WARNING... ;)
Please start one.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 03, 2013, 03:36:28 PM
It would be grounds for expulsion from yeshiva.
is that the only reason?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 03, 2013, 03:43:18 PM
I'm not saying one is less intimidated than the other but I've worked in quite a number of schools ranging from Yeshivish to Mizrachi to Conservative and one thing I've noticed is the less "religious" you got the more articulate the kids got, the more comfortable they were talking to adults and knowing how to make conversation.  They also tend to have nicer manners when dealing with others.  I can't imagine that doesn't help with dating and life in general.

I can definitely relate to what you are saying, as I have had the same experience. However, I found respectlful behavior to be limited to respect for adults, and particularly adults whom they don't know well (i.e. a tutor etc.). Around their parents an friends it's a completely different story.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 03:51:38 PM
I can definitely relate to what you are saying, as I have had the same experience. However, I found respectlful behavior to be limited to respect for adults, and particularly adults whom they don't know well (i.e. a tutor etc.). Around their parents an friends it's a completely different story.

Of course. I didn't mean to imply they are always polite. These kids know how to be mean and disrespectful just as well.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 03:52:05 PM
As if kids that come out of co-ed high schools have much better marriages.

What exactly do those kids know about talking to girls that a Bochur does not? Perhaps they are less intimidated of the girls they grew up with in their own class, but if they see a pretty girl in a bar that they have never met before they are likely to be just as intimidated.
Who said anything about their marriages?

But I'd pay good money to see a video of my first dating experience where I flew across the country only to get tossed aside after a single hotel lobby date...

Sure with experience dating becomes easier (though you become pickier as you learn new things you want and want to avoid in a spouse), but boy could I have used some more pointers beforehand.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 03, 2013, 03:57:38 PM
This has turned into the "Bash the system cuz xyz didn't work out for me thread"
Time for a name change.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 03:59:09 PM

But I'd pay good money to see a video of my first dating experience where I flew across the country only to get tossed aside after a single hotel lobby date...

For you it was cross country, for me it was cross Atlantic for same results :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: zale on September 03, 2013, 03:59:21 PM
Who said anything about their marriages?

But I'd pay good money to see a video of my first dating experience where I flew across the country only to get tossed aside after a single hotel lobby date...

Sure with experience dating becomes easier (though you become pickier as you learn new things you want and want to avoid in a spouse), but boy could I have used some more pointers beforehand.

Now that you have that experience, what kind of pointers would you put forth? What would you have done differently? (Specifically in terms of communication between you and your date).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 03:59:38 PM
This has turned into the "Bash the system cuz xyz didn't work out for me thread"
Time for a name change.
Relax. No one is bashing the system.

It could always use refining though.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 03, 2013, 04:04:13 PM
This has turned into the "Bash the system cuz xyz didn't work out for me thread"
Time for a name change.

What's wrong with trying to work and improve on things?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 04:06:05 PM
This has turned into the "Bash the system cuz xyz didn't work out for me thread"
Time for a name change.
Are you saying the "system" is perfect and shouldn't be refined?

For you it was cross country, for me it was cross Atlantic for same results :)
:D
Ouch!

I tell people that ask me that they should never bail after one date.  It takes most people longer than that to warm up to someone and show their true self. Especially if they're new to the shidduch dating scene.

Now that you have that experience, what kind of pointers would you put forth? What would you have done differently? (Specifically in terms of communication between you and your date).
You're asking about stuff from 6 years ago and awkward times I blocked out. All I know is that back then I needed help but I suppose all is well that ends well.  I guess I was supposed to be awkward on the first couple dates so that I would wind up with the right one.  The 8th girl I dated was my bashert.


Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: itsyehuda on September 03, 2013, 05:05:24 PM
Are you saying the "system" is perfect and shouldn't be refined?
:D
Ouch!

I tell people that ask me that they should never bail after one date.  It takes most people longer than that to warm up to someone and show their true self. Especially if they're new to the shidduch dating scene.
You're asking about stuff from 6 years ago and awkward times I blocked out. All I know is that back then I needed help but I suppose all is well that ends well.  I guess I was supposed to be awkward on the first couple dates so that I would wind up with the right one.  The 8th girl I dated was my bashert.

How would they make romantic comedies if every relationship worked out according to plan?

+1 about the one date. I think it's worth a second date just to let the other person down easy, i.e. so they don't feel like they were so undesirable that they got rejected right away.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 05:07:39 PM
How would they make romantic comedies if every relationship worked out according to plan?

+1 about the one date. I think it's worth a second date just to let the other person down easy, i.e. so they don't feel like they were so undesirable that they got rejected right away.
Yeah. If you are the woman you get a free night on the town.

I don't think most men would want to waste their time and money. They know some people were not meant to be together.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 05:09:16 PM
How would they make romantic comedies if every relationship worked out according to plan?

+1 about the one date. I think it's worth a second date just to let the other person down easy, i.e. so they don't feel like they were so undesirable that they got rejected right away.
Eh, if there's really a complete incompatibility then I don't see the point of wasting their time/money.
But just because a first date is somewhat awkward isn't a reason to call it off.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 05:11:20 PM
Yeah. If you are the woman you get a free night on the town.
I don't really understand why the guy needs to pay for all shidduch travel and dating expenses.
Really ought to be evenly split so everyone has the same thing invested in it.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 03, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
I don't really understand why the guy needs to pay for all shidduch travel and dating expenses.
Really ought to be evenly split so everyone has the same thing invested in it.
Goyishe Musagim
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 05:21:40 PM
Goyishe Musagim
Not at all, if the girl or girl's family would be more invested then they would do better research in the first place and not end things after a single date just because it wasn't love at first sight.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 03, 2013, 05:24:16 PM
Not at all, if the girl or girl's family would be more invested then they would do better research in the first place and not end things after a single date just because it wasn't love at first sight.
I was answering your question not arguing with you
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AJK on September 03, 2013, 05:30:59 PM
I don't really understand why the guy needs to pay for all shidduch travel and dating expenses.
Really ought to be evenly split so everyone has the same thing invested in it.

Will never happen.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 05:34:21 PM
Will never happen.
My (now) father in law actually offered to pay half of the travel expenses if it wouldn't work out.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AJK on September 03, 2013, 05:35:38 PM
My (now) father in law actually offered to pay half of the travel expenses if it wouldn't work out.

The exception that proves the rule, as far as I'm concerned.

You must just be that special :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 05:36:37 PM

You must just be that special :P
I would say that about him. Apparently the Shadchan wasn't lying when she said she was from a very good family :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 05:49:14 PM
After a few dates of renting a car and driving 1 1/2 hours each way I told her I think she should come to my town. She said ok and started taking the bus in  ;D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 06:04:04 PM
The finances and travel are the one thing slanted in the girl'a favor. Every other part of the system favors the boy. I'm sure every girl would trade that I'm a heartbeat
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 06:07:56 PM
Every other part of the system favors the boy.
Besides for there supposedly being more boys than girls for reasons nobody can fully explain, what else?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 06:13:07 PM
Besides for there supposedly being more boys than girls for reasons nobody can fully explain, what else?
Every half decent guy I know has a list from here till next year. I know many a very good girl who can't get a date
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: aygart on September 03, 2013, 06:17:29 PM
Goyishe Musagim
Mi chozer al mi.......
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 06:21:11 PM
Maybe if girls shared in the financial onus of dating then it wouldn't be so hard to get a date?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 03, 2013, 06:25:25 PM
Maybe if girls shared in the financial onus of dating then it wouldn't be so hard to get a date?
Definitely not in my world
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 06:55:00 PM
Besides for there supposedly being more boys than girls for reasons nobody can fully explain, what else?
The fact that the boys generally get married a few years older than the girls seems like a valid explanation to me...
(I saw a blog post once were someone did the math, I don't remember what it was but it seemed to make sense at the time)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on September 03, 2013, 06:58:02 PM
Link? Why doesn't it ever even out?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: bubbles on September 03, 2013, 06:58:11 PM
The fact that the boys generally get married a few years older than the girls seems like a valid explanation to me...
(I saw a blog post once were someone did the math, I don't remember what it was but it seemed to make sense at the time)

Meh, there are more boys than girls born.

Link? Why doesn't it ever even out?
Though the concept is that every year there are more kids being born due to population growth. Therefor if the girls from 1995 start dating now and the boys from 1992 there will be a slight discrepancy.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 03, 2013, 07:03:24 PM
Definitely not in my world
...or any world I know of. Here is a tip for anyone starting to date. If the girl wants to pay RUN FOREST RUN!!!  :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: aygart on September 03, 2013, 07:09:02 PM
The fact that the boys generally get married a few years older than the girls seems like a valid explanation to me...
(I saw a blog post once were someone did the math, I don't remember what it was but it seemed to make sense at the time)
Speak to a demographer and see if they agree with this calculation. There are many factors involved. For that matter, see if they agree that there is an issue in the first place. The whole issue is ONLY anecdotal.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: whYME on September 03, 2013, 07:16:38 PM
Link?
It seems I misremembered, I seem to remember it having been a more thorough calculation...
Anyways, here it is: http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/03/finally-scientific-explanation-of.html (http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/03/finally-scientific-explanation-of.html)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: bubbles on September 03, 2013, 07:43:00 PM
It seems I misremembered, I seem to remember it having been a more thorough calculation...
Anyways, here it is: http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/03/finally-scientific-explanation-of.html (http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/03/finally-scientific-explanation-of.html)

Meh, there are more boys than girls born.
Though the concept is that every year there are more kids being born due to population growth. Therefor if the girls from 1995 start dating now and the boys from 1992 there will be a slight discrepancy.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 03, 2013, 07:59:26 PM
Link? Why doesn't it ever even out?
cuz the community is growing rapidly
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on September 03, 2013, 08:13:06 PM
I tell people that ask me that they should never bail after one date.  It takes most people longer than that to warm up to someone and show their true self. Especially if they're new to the shidduch dating scene.

IMO there is a reason that nearly every "older" single girl, also happens to have been saying "no" to nearly every guy after 1 date
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on September 03, 2013, 08:23:16 PM
There is no good solution to this problem. Think about it. If there are 50 boys and 60 girls and the following year 55 boys and 65 girls the only way to have them all get married is through polygamy. And it's highly dubious that will ever happen.

There is no other way to even out a disparity in numbers.

If people start marrying someone their own age that will just leave a zillion single women in this generation and don't expect the ladies to sacrifice themselves for the ladies of the next generation.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 03, 2013, 08:24:55 PM
True, reducing the age gap won't solve the problem, it will however stop it from growing as fast...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: aygart on September 03, 2013, 09:12:59 PM
In previous generations many more women died in childbirth and therefore their husbands ended up taking a second wife. In that case Obamacare is c"v the solution.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 03, 2013, 10:25:06 PM
What I don't understand, why would a 23yr old boy rather date an 18yr old girl?
Do you want to marry someone less mature than you are?
(CCMIIW, but isn't that the core of the problem?)

In my circles,  the boy and the girl are usually in the same age range.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on September 04, 2013, 12:26:03 AM
Do you want to marry someone less mature than you are?
...and what does that have to do with age?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: real-brisker on September 04, 2013, 12:32:42 AM
CV +1,000
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: PlatinumGuy on September 24, 2013, 10:45:18 AM


Looks like theres an entire kindergarten there.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Yeki89 on September 24, 2013, 12:55:53 PM
What I don't understand, why would a 23yr old boy rather date an 18yr old girl?
Do you want to marry someone less mature than you are?
(CCMIIW, but isn't that the core of the problem?)

In my circles,  the boy and the girl are usually in the same age range.
Because the girls are more  "mature" then the boys. or that is what they claim.
My wife is 6 month younger then me.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on September 24, 2013, 01:30:46 PM
Because the girls are more  "mature" then the boys. or that is what they claim.
My wife is 6 month younger then me.
They want a piece if putty to mold in their image
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 24, 2013, 02:53:38 PM
So the boys are looking for older girls because the girls claim they're more mature?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 24, 2013, 03:11:31 PM
I wouldn't say that girls are more mature than boys but at the age many start dating (around 18) I do find guys tend to be less mature than girls around that age.

Meanwhile it's not always the case obviously and there are plenty of girls married to guys their age or younger.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: plainbachur on September 24, 2013, 04:18:05 PM
What I don't understand, why would a 23yr old boy rather date an 18yr old girl?
Do you want to marry someone less mature than you are?
(CCMIIW, but isn't that the core of the problem?)

In my circles,  the boy and the girl are usually in the same age range.
were is your circles?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 24, 2013, 04:21:28 PM
Meshugeners?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Myccrabbi on September 24, 2013, 05:46:45 PM
So ur saying its normel or not?!


Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: SamKey on September 24, 2013, 05:58:09 PM
So ur saying its normel or not?!
He's hassidic
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Myccrabbi on September 24, 2013, 05:58:52 PM
I think shidduch is from heaven and not preset age similarity or gap now I am not saying that a 25 should date a 80 year old but wat I am saying is that its no big deal older or younger or same and they all have their pros n cons

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Myccrabbi on September 24, 2013, 06:10:09 PM
Any comments?

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on September 24, 2013, 06:21:59 PM
I think shidduch is from heaven and not preset age similarity or gap now I am not saying that a 25 should date a 80 year old but wat I am saying is that its no big deal older or younger or same and they all have their pros n cons

Everything is from heaven. That being said if G-d decided your bashert was an older girl and you say no .......


 I guess at the end of the day I feel that people need to be a bit more open minded.  There are so many "rules" that seem a bit silly.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on September 24, 2013, 06:27:40 PM
He's hassidic
Its not the first time I notice people here have a hard time saying חחחח..., they have to replace it with a הההה.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 24, 2013, 06:33:39 PM
FWIW The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a year younger than his Rebbetzin...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 24, 2013, 07:33:29 PM
They want a piece if putty to mold in their image

+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on October 10, 2013, 10:00:06 PM
http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/10/09/youre-a-stay-at-home-mom-what-do-you-do-all-day/
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 10, 2013, 11:03:46 PM
http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/10/09/youre-a-stay-at-home-mom-what-do-you-do-all-day/
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 27, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on November 27, 2013, 04:53:33 PM
Awesome
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on December 05, 2013, 11:27:35 AM
What makes all the sleepless nights worthwhile: Your child coming up to you on his own initiative to give you a mushy kiss.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q74/s720x720/575335_10153541615130133_379793956_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on December 05, 2013, 11:33:01 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 11:37:48 AM
What makes all the sleepless nights worthwhile: Your child coming up to you on his own initiative to give you a mushy kiss.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q74/s720x720/575335_10153541615130133_379793956_n.jpg)
meh. Its the chanka gifts:P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Something Fishy on December 05, 2013, 11:40:57 AM
What makes all the sleepless nights worthwhile: Your child coming up to you on his own initiative to give you a mushy kiss.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q74/s720x720/575335_10153541615130133_379793956_n.jpg)

I like his socks :D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 11:54:58 AM
What makes all the sleepless nights worthwhile: Your child coming up to you on his own initiative to give you a mushy kiss.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q74/s720x720/575335_10153541615130133_379793956_n.jpg)
That should be its own thread, things kids do that make it all worth it. B'h I feel like I could fill it up on my own.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Name Changed on December 05, 2013, 01:05:48 PM
That should be its own thread, things kids do that make it all worth it. B'h I feel like I could fill it up on my own.
+10000
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 01:58:50 PM
What makes all the sleepless nights worthwhile: Your child coming up to you on his own initiative to give you a mushy kiss.

Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on December 05, 2013, 01:59:55 PM
Oy
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
Oy
+1+The avatar=Scary
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Centro on December 05, 2013, 02:05:57 PM
Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
No comment! ::)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 02:08:01 PM
+1+The avatar=Scary
No comment! ::)
Oy

Sooo you guys would all make the trade?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 02:08:25 PM
Sooo you guys would all make the trade?
Try craigslist
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 02:16:25 PM
Try craigslist
Now THAT is way scarier than what I said  ???.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
Now THAT is way scarier than what I said  ???.
Was just checking  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 02:19:09 PM
Sooo you guys would all make the trade?
It's not a one for one deal. But the whole package? Absolutely yes. And this is leaving out the hashkafic and halachic imperative, just the joy of children.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 02:24:33 PM
It's not a one for one deal. But the whole package? Absolutely yes. And this is leaving out the hashkafic and halachic imperative, just the joy of children.

Let's agree that it's not a fair deal, but it is ok as a consolation prize.  :D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Saver2000 on December 05, 2013, 02:25:35 PM
Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
Wow.   :-X
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on December 05, 2013, 02:35:51 PM
Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
Ok, I'll say what everyone else is thinking:

The premise of this thread is not the type of thing that everyone feels but is too ashamed to admit.  It's not.  Most of us appreciate the gift of children, and find the hardship, grief and aggravation that comes along with them to be well worth it.  You have a problem, and you should seek help (elsewhere).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 02:46:52 PM
Let's agree that it's not a fair deal, but it is ok as a consolation prize.  :D
Ok, I'll say what everyone else is thinking:

The premise of this thread is not the type of thing that everyone feels but is too ashamed to admit.  It's not.  Most of us appreciate the gift of children, and find the hardship, grief and aggravation that comes along with them to be well worth it.  You have a problem, and you should seek help (elsewhere).
I don't know what percentage on this board (or in general) feel one way or the other, but for you (yehuda s) to act like it's impossible for someone to feel that way is ludicrous.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 03:06:33 PM

I don't know what percentage on this board (or in general) feel one way or the other, but for you (yehuda s) to act like it's impossible for someone to feel that way is ludicrous.
So far no one has said they'd take the offer in a one-to-one exchange...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
@Yehuda S, I'm dead serious - you gotta get therapy.
Is there a one to one trade?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Baruch on December 05, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
You need help. Seriously. Professional help.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 03:27:57 PM
So far no one has said they'd take the offer in a one-to-one exchange...
Don't know why you're fixated on that, raising a child isn't a series of one to one exchanges of kisses and screaming nights.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 03:31:00 PM
So far no one has said they'd take the offer in a one-to-one exchange...
I will take it every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I am not home at night.  :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
You need help. Seriously. Professional help.

Don't just stand there and say that! Pitch in.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on December 05, 2013, 03:38:10 PM
Don't know why you're fixated on that, raising a child isn't a series of one to one exchanges of kisses and screaming nights.
lol
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
Don't just stand there and say that! Pitch in.
Love comes from giving.
The more you give, the less self centered you become, the more you'll love your kids and you'll become happier each day.
That's my professional advice.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 03:43:13 PM

Don't know why you're fixated on that, raising a child isn't a series of one to one exchanges of kisses and screaming nights.
Nah, there also tons of money involved.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Baruch on December 05, 2013, 03:43:23 PM
Don't just stand there and say that! Pitch in.
I'm not a professional.

But I will stay this. I've lost countless of nights of sleep. Spent countless hours of listening to screaming and kvetching. Cleaned up hundreds of spills and messes. Changed thousands of diapers.   And I have zero negative feeling about having children.

And all healthy people feel the same way.

If you feel differently you either are unhealthy or an extremely selfish person. Both of those hopefully can be cured with professional help.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Baruch on December 05, 2013, 03:45:58 PM
If being self centered, doesn't include your children in the self centeredness, then you are extremely self centered.
Look in Rav Shimon's Hakdama to Sharei Yosher.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 03:47:08 PM
If you feel differently you either are unhealthy or an extremely selfish person.
Wow!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 03:50:20 PM
Wow!
Said what you were thinking?  ???
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 03:58:41 PM
Said what you were thinking?  ???
Not this time.  :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: george on December 05, 2013, 04:05:00 PM
Oh COME on! How is this worth a sleepless night? Get real.

Say your kid came to you and said "Tatty can I give you a mushy kiss and then scream all night?"

No one on this board would say yes. No one!
Forgive me for being blunt.

I really hope, for your childrens' sakes, that you do not give off the same attitude towards parenting that you do in this thread when you are in the presence of your children.

Parenting is excruciatingly tough. For some people it is way tougher than for others. Don't beat yourself up for making mistakes or for not being the best father you can be. Instead, resolve to work on it every day. Have a positive attitude. It will make all the diferrence, I promise.
Best of luck.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on December 05, 2013, 04:06:58 PM
Forgive me for being blunt.

I really hope, for your childrens' sakes, that you do not give off the same attitude towards parenting that you do in this thread when you are in the presence of your children.

Parenting is excruciatingly tough. For some people it is way tougher than for others. Don't beat yourself up for making mistakes or for not being the best father you can be. Instead, resolve to work on it every day. Have a positive attitude. It will make all the diferrence, I promise.
Best of luck.
Kudos for taking positive approach
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 04:13:23 PM
I'm happy to say that I hold no grudge against someone who only has ooey gooey feelings for their kid's sleepless nights and cannot get enough of their messy diapers.

However, sadly, many of the posters here demonstrate their intolerance and unsympathetic nature with their vitriol for anyone who simply finds parenting a difficult job. I would never claim that being a parent does not come with gratifying moments but how is it that you cannot conceive that some people may be having a harder time than you or did not receive the same amount of preparation for this role?

Instead of putting yourself in my shoes you are rallying around your children in a defensive posture unwilling to see the difficulties that others might be having.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 04:17:47 PM
Maybe you are just saying what some are afraid to say.  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 04:20:43 PM
I'm happy to say that I hold no grudge against someone who only has ooey gooey feelings for their kid's sleepless nights and cannot get enough of their messy diapers.

However, sadly, many of the posters here demonstrate their intolerance and unsympathetic nature with their vitriol for anyone who simply finds parenting a difficult job. I would never claim that being a parent does not come with gratifying moments but how is it that you cannot conceive that some people may be having a harder time than you or did not receive the same amount of preparation for this role?

Instead of putting yourself in my shoes you are rallying around your children in a defensive posture unwilling to see the difficulties that others might be having.
Ok, il play your side.  :)
Many men are not cut out to deal with crying, dirty and hungry children. You obviously are one of these guys, it does not necessarily mean you're a bad father. Its very normal, its the world that has gone mad! Since when does a real man change a diaper?!
Of course you are miserable. In some families, the mother must stay home and single handedly manage the children and the father must man up, go out and bring back the cash. He only touches happy, clean children and even that only on the weekends.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 04:21:12 PM
I'm happy to say that I hold no grudge against someone who only has ooey gooey feelings for their kid's sleepless nights and cannot get enough of their messy diapers.

However, sadly, many of the posters here demonstrate their intolerance and unsympathetic nature with their vitriol for anyone who simply finds parenting a difficult job. I would never claim that being a parent does not come with gratifying moments but how is it that you cannot conceive that some people may be having a harder time than you or did not receive the same amount of preparation for this role?

Instead of putting yourself in my shoes you are rallying around your children in a defensive posture unwilling to see the difficulties that others might be having.
Speaking for myself, it does seem as though you've been incredulous about others' claims of happiness in child-rearing, and that's mostly what drew my responses. But I'll take you for your word for it if you say you understand the other side of the coin.

On the other hand, I don't think it's crazy for a person to feel overwhelmed, or not enjoy the experience of child-rearing. But don't say woe is me, work toward a better experience. I'm not a professional, so I don't know the what's and how's of improving the experience.

I do however think it's important to reiterate george's point above, that it's crucial that you don't show this attitude to your children, because it can be very damaging to one of the most important relationships a person ever has.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 04:23:15 PM
The bottom line is that having children is hard. We do it because it's worth it. We deal with all the sleepless nights and the giving up of ourselves because at the end of the day we are gaining as well. 

Trying to place an even exchange of a kiss for a sleepless night is just silly.

Dan was just giving an example of one of the moments in life that reminds us why we have children. Moments that are filled with nothing but joy. Is every moment like that? No. 

Some people will definitely have a harder time having children than others. And like we've discussed before no one really knows what they are getting themselves into. Some more than others.

I think it's great Yehuda S didn't feel bad to start such a thread because having kids IS hard and people shouldn't feel bad to talk about the hard parts as well.

And maybe he's having a harder time than others, and maybe it hit him like a ton of bricks more than others. Everyone is different. Each situation is different. So is life.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 04:25:03 PM
@Yehuda s
Are you having such a hard time that you can't even enjoy the good moments?
        It seems like you are. And if so that would be a shame. Obviously children aren't returnable so you're best off working through the feelings that having children caused you to have and adjusting life accordingly.
       
     Have you spoken to others about it?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 05, 2013, 04:40:52 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7934804224/h0AEF2EE7/)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 04:42:43 PM

@Yehuda s
Are you having such a hard time that you can't even enjoy the good moments?
        It seems like you are. And if so that would be a shame. Obviously children aren't returnable so you're best off working through the feelings that having children caused you to have and adjusting life accordingly.
       
     Have you spoken to others about it?

I've mentioned it to others, even professional therapists! Mostly they stare at me blankly and confused before saying stuff like 'but they are so yummy and nachasdik'. It's actually quite funny.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 04:47:53 PM

Ok, il play your side.  :)
Many men are not cut out to deal with crying, dirty and hungry children. You obviously are one of these guys, it does not necessarily mean you're a bad father. Its very normal, its the world that has gone mad! Since when does a real man change a diaper?!
Of course you are miserable. In some families, the mother must stay home and single handedly manage the children and the father must man up, go out and bring back the cash. He only touches happy, clean children and even that only on the weekends.

Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on December 05, 2013, 04:48:23 PM
The bottom line is that having children is hard. We do it because it's worth it. We deal with all the sleepless nights and the giving up of ourselves because at the end of the day we are gaining as well. 

Trying to place an even exchange of a kiss for a sleepless night is just silly.

Dan was just giving an example of one of the moments in life that reminds us why we have children. Moments that are filled with nothing but joy. Is every moment like that? No. 

Some people will definitely have a harder time having children than others. And like we've discussed before no one really knows what they are getting themselves into. Some more than others.

I think it's great Yehuda S didn't feel bad to start such a thread because having kids IS hard and people shouldn't feel bad to talk about the hard parts as well.

And maybe he's having a harder time than others, and maybe it hit him like a ton of bricks more than others. Everyone is different. Each situation is different. So is life.
@Yehuda s
Are you having such a hard time that you can't even enjoy the good moments?
        It seems like you are. And if so that would be a shame. Obviously children aren't returnable so you're best off working through the feelings that having children caused you to have and adjusting life accordingly.
       
     Have you spoken to others about it?
Very well said.
I struggle mightily with child-rearing, so I can appreciate yehuda's mindset. I'm truly lucky to have a wife who's incredible at it and doesn't mind that role.
And anyone who didn't have a colicky child can't relate to months of trauma.

But it's moments like that where I can take a step back and see how rewarding it can all be and how rewarding it will be to continue to see my children grow and give me nachas.

Nothing so rewarding comes without any pain.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 04:56:36 PM
I've mentioned it to others, even professional therapists! Mostly they stare at me blankly and confused before saying stuff like 'but they are so yummy and nachasdik'. It's actually quite funny.

Then you're clearly not talking to the right people.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 04:57:30 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)

Wow. That sounds intense. It can be hard enough just being the Tatty....
           
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: george on December 05, 2013, 04:57:44 PM
I've mentioned it to others, even professional therapists! Mostly they stare at me blankly and confused before saying stuff like 'but they are so yummy and nachasdik'. It's actually quite funny.
Quite funny, but on a deeper level it's quite sad that those are the types of professional therapists that are serving people in our community.
Believe it or not, there are some extremely competent, seriously helpful therapists out there. They are just not as abundant as the ones you describe. There are even organizations devoted to finding the best therapist for a given situation. For more details,  feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:01:16 PM

Wow. That sounds intense. It can be hard enough just being the Tatty....
           
Thanks, it's been that way for a few years but definitely easier since I graduated.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:04:26 PM

@Yehuda s
Are you having such a hard time that you can't even enjoy the good moments?
        It seems like you are.

I am definitely enjoying the good moments, thanks. And there are a lot B"H.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 05:04:50 PM
I am definitely enjoying the good moments, thanks. And there are a lot B"H.

Glad to hear it. :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:06:30 PM

Glad to hear it. :)
Oh yeah, there's the hours at night when she's sleeping, the time when she's at school and of course when the wife comes home and takes over... JUST KIDDING :-p
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 05:07:30 PM
Oh yeah, there's the hours at night when she's sleeping, the time when she's at school and of course when the wife comes home and takes over... JUST KIDDING :-p

But only sort of, right? :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 05:08:02 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
This should have been in your first post. Any close family members that can help you out. It just seems you are overwhelmed.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:11:50 PM

But only sort of, right? :P
You said it, not me.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on December 05, 2013, 05:13:55 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)

Now you're talking. There is a different issue here. Maybe your wife doesn't belong in school. My wife says the same about me.... lol
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on December 05, 2013, 05:15:18 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
Intense.  Sorry for sounding rough earlier.  BTW- you are your kids' night seder chavrusa? Impressive!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:16:02 PM

This should have been in your first post. Any close family members that can help you out. It just seems you are overwhelmed.
Thanks but I wrote that post a long time ago. I think at the time my wife was leaving at 7:00 AM and coming home at 11:00 pm.

Things are a bit easier these days - can't wait for her graduation.

And family did help out. Lots of kudos if they are reading this. (Hope they aren't though).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 05:16:23 PM
Now you're talking. There is a different issue here. Maybe your wife doesn't belong in school. My wife says the same about me.... lol

It's hard now a days with both parents working and being out of the house. It's definitely much nicer having one parent at home. Makes a calmer house for sure.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:16:59 PM

Now you're talking. There is a different issue here. Maybe your wife doesn't belong in school. My wife says the same about me.... lol
Nah she's doing great. Can't wait for graduation though!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 05:17:54 PM

Intense.  Sorry for sounding rough earlier.  BTW- you are your kids' night seder chavrusa? Impressive!
No problem.

Nope I learn with my father.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on December 05, 2013, 05:37:22 PM
@yehuda S:
Now I understand everything. Sorry that I was so nasty earlier in thread.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 05:39:46 PM
The thread should be renamed "The truth about a mothers away all day" Has nothing to do with kids.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on December 05, 2013, 05:47:55 PM
The thread should be renamed "The truth about a mothers away all day" Has nothing to do with kids.
I guess its the combination.  Wife away all day where there are no kids presents a whole different set of issues.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 05:49:05 PM
The world wasn't designed to have two working parents.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 05:52:05 PM
The world wasn't designed to have two working parents.
Maybe in your world but in my world it worked out just fine.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 05:53:40 PM
Maybe in your world but in my world it worked out just fine.
The world wasn't designed to have two working parents.

It can definitely work. And some people can do it better than others. Also, there is already a difference between a mother coming home at 3/4 than a mother coming home at 6 etc.  So the details make a difference as well.
Either way it is nice to have a parent at home.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 05:56:27 PM
Either way it is nice to have a parent at home.
…and if you are willing to make some small sacrifices it is possible to do both. Have both parents work and have one parent at home.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on December 05, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
Now this all makes sense. The Torah tell us Paroh made the the Jew do "Avodas Perech". The meforshim explain that he made the men raise the children and do house work, while the women went out to work. I once heard a shiur on shalom bayis where the Rabbi asked "that's what the Torah calls 'Avodas Perech'?" And the answer is yes. Hashem optimized male and female to their designed role, and when one isn't in their designed role, the ride can be very bumpy. Try driving down the highway in a plane.

So sorry for judging you. I'm sure there is good reason why you have to be in this position, but the Torah calls what you're doing 'Avodas Parech', I don't think I am able to put myself into your shoes
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 05:58:46 PM
Maybe in your world but in my world it worked out just fine.
didn't say it can't work.
Evidently it can get very difficult for some though.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: meshugener on December 05, 2013, 05:58:55 PM
Chaikel, well said. Was just about to post this thing from paroh.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 06:02:43 PM

The world wasn't designed to have two working parents.
I agree but in our society today it is impossible to make it on one (average) salary. We figured a few years of hard work will hopefully pay off with many years of being self sufficient and debt free.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on December 05, 2013, 06:04:57 PM
I agree but in our society today it is impossible to make it on one (average) salary. We figured a few years of hard work will hopefully pay off with many years of being self sufficient and debt free.
With the way you feel about your children, you may want to re-evaluate that decision.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 06:05:08 PM

There is already a difference between a mother coming home at 3/4 than a mother coming home at 6 etc.
Extremely true.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 06:06:15 PM

With the way you feel about your children, you may want to re-evaluate that decision.
I don't think there ever was a choice. What's the alternative?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Chaikel on December 05, 2013, 06:12:02 PM
I don't think there ever was a choice. What's the alternative?
I obviously don't know your situation, but the American Dream of "Work hard now to relax later" is for the most part, a lie. The alternative is spending less, and manageable debt. And by manageable I mean both financially (a plan to have it paid off) and psychologically (not letting every dollar spent make you mad).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 06:23:43 PM

Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
I don't think I've given my wife enough credit here. She works like crazy, is going through a very intense schooling and still does a ton around the house, makes a great Shabbos every week, makes food all the time and takes care of our daughter whenever she can.

It would be great to do a 'trip report' of how we were able to get through five years of dual schooling, working full time and still taking some incredible trips together.

I don't think every mother should be working but if she is anyway, it could be really worthwhile to put in a few hard years of work and end up with a better job for life.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on December 05, 2013, 06:29:30 PM
better job for life.
Good luck finding a well paying job that lets you get off at 3.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 06:44:42 PM

Good luck finding a well paying job that lets you get off at 3.
What is your definition of well paying?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 07:10:11 PM
I'm all for sacrificing certain luxuries and things in my life for working less and having a calmer life.  Obviously it all depends on your financial situation.  Being in debt isn't a calmer life either.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 07:18:45 PM

I obviously don't know your situation, but the American Dream of "Work hard now to relax later" is for the most part, a lie. The alternative is spending less, and manageable debt. And by manageable I mean both financially (a plan to have it paid off) and psychologically (not letting every dollar spent make you mad).
Since we started school we've given up our lease in favor of used cars, stopped eating out in restaurants; home cook instead, travel with points, stopped dry cleaning, buy only the bare basics of food, eat leftovers again and again, extreme minimum of clothing purchases, kicked buying coffee in Starbucks, let go of all our house cleaning help, went cash & debit card instead of using credit cards, and reuse our garbage bags.

(Ok I'm kidding about the last one) :-)

It's amazing how much you can give up when you're focused on a goal.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 07:19:49 PM
Oh yeah - we also shopped for clothes in second hand stores.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Did the cost of living vs the average wage go up so much in the last 40 years?
40 years ago mother's didn't work.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Dan on December 05, 2013, 07:57:47 PM
Did the cost of living vs the average wage go up so much in the last 40 years?
40 years ago mother's didn't work.
My father is paying more than double for tuition for my brothers in school now compared to what he paid for my tuition.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 05, 2013, 08:01:03 PM
My father is paying more than double for tuition for my brothers in school now compared to what he paid for my tuition.

Ouch.   Why does it seem like tuition is so high and our teachers still aren't getting paid?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Satmar Lady on December 05, 2013, 08:08:36 PM
Yehuda, I’m pretty sure your feelings about child rearing will drastically change after you leave the Mommy role for Mommy. My husband is all smiles after spending an hour with the kids. But if I ever make the mistake of figuring he can do it for a few hours just as well, while I catch up on some work (in home office), he gets extremely overwhelmed. I can’t help teasing him that I manage to do this every day, and the house stays clean too.
On the other hand I think women don’t have such an issue bringing parnassah, especially if it’s something they enjoy doing, but most women would probably find it hard to take care of the family's finances – paying bills, managing bank accounts etc.
 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 05, 2013, 08:12:48 PM

Did the cost of living vs the average wage go up so much in the last 40 years?
40 years ago mother's didn't work.
That's exactly the reason. An employer had to pay a man enough to support his family.

Today he just has to pay him half of that because the wife is working too.

Thanks, feminism.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Baruch on December 05, 2013, 08:38:09 PM
Actually to give some background, my wife is in school day and night so I am Tatty, Mommy, full time earner, diaper changer, morning clothes dresser, breakfast feeder, brown bag luncher, (for Mommy too) ponytail-maker, supper cooker, bather, pajama dresser, tantrum consoler, bedtime story teller, full time house keeper, laundry do-er, (night Seder chavrusa), among others.

;-)
Wow! Why didn't you say so earlier. Man do I feel your pain. I take back all the referrals to professionals. I would have snapped if I was in your situation, by now.
Especially after reading that your living on a poor man's budget. Hopefully everything works out soon after you guys finish with your schooling.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 05, 2013, 10:56:51 PM
…and if you are willing to make some small sacrifices it is possible to do both. Have both parents work and have one parent at home.
Polygamy?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 06, 2013, 01:20:11 AM
Now this all makes sense. The Torah tell us Paroh made the the Jew do "Avodas Perech". The meforshim explain that he made the men raise the children and do house work, while the women went out to work. I once heard a shiur on shalom bayis where the Rabbi asked "that's what the Torah calls 'Avodas Perech'?" And the answer is yes. Hashem optimized male and female to their designed role, and when one isn't in their designed role, the ride can be very bumpy. Try driving down the highway in a plane.

So sorry for judging you. I'm sure there is good reason why you have to be in this position, but the Torah calls what you're doing 'Avodas Parech', I don't think I am able to put myself into your shoes
+1, saw this in R' Chaim Friedlander's kuntres Ve'Yadaata Ki Shalom Ohalecha, which my Rov gives a shiur from.

Good luck finding a well paying job that lets you get off at 3.
Just a tip for everyone out there looking for the same: NYC public schools. I can elaborate another time if anyone cares, but it's unreal how sweet a deal this can be.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 06, 2013, 02:13:11 AM

.
Just a tip for everyone out there looking for the same: NYC public schools. I can elaborate another time if anyone cares, but it's unreal how sweet a deal this can be.
How about elaborating now?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 06, 2013, 06:15:05 AM
Polygamy?
I don't live in Utah.  :P
Where is it written you both have to work the same hours?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: hertzinstl on December 06, 2013, 06:25:12 AM
Where is it written you both have to work the same hours?
JOHN 9:4 :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: CountValentine on December 06, 2013, 06:29:17 AM
JOHN 9:4 :P
Not according to Mathew 5:12

ETA: I thought you were making a joke.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: hertzinstl on December 06, 2013, 06:36:42 AM
Never heard of google?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Jkhein on December 06, 2013, 06:55:12 AM


ETA: I thought you were making a joke.
Am ha'aretz
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 06, 2013, 10:48:11 AM
How about elaborating now?
Most frum women working in public school are not regular teachers (though a similar case can probably be made for that type of job too), so let's take speech therapy as an example.

Here's a link (http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-831014B39D1E/0/TeacherSalarySchedule20083.pdf) to the salary scale. Right out of graduate school you'd start at the column labeled Approved MA, row 1A, for $51,425. But you can step up to the columns at the right of the page just by adding credits. So let's say you don't want to deal with that during your first school year, so you leave it off to the summer. You take 30 credits of CLEPs (extremely easy to do, it's pretty pathetic) over the summer, and with your year of service, the next year you'll be in the rightmost column, row 2A, for $60,224. You'll then get modest raises over the next few years, till 5 years of service, after which you'll jump to $75,796.

On top of that, if you're working in a District 75 (special ed) school, you have the option of working summer school for an extra 17% of your salary. The amount of days you end up working is less than 17% of the rest of the year, and the environment is generally much more relaxed, so it's a no brainer to work summer too. If you work in a regular school you can still try to get a summer job, but I think you're only guaranteed a spot if you work in D75 the rest of the year.

Next comes schedule. You will work a lot less hours in year (even with summer school) than the average 40 hour desk job, for 2 reasons. First of all, most schools are something like 8-3, maybe more, but definitely not an 8 hour workday. Second of all, here's a list of days schools are closed:
9/2: Labor Day
9/5-9/6: Rosh Hashana
10/14: Columbus Day
11/11: Veterans Day
11/28-11/29: Thanksgiving
12/23-1/1: Winter Recess
1/20: MLK Day
2/17-2/21: Midwinter Recess
4/14-4/22: Spring Recess
5/26: Memorial Day
If you're not working summer, you're then usually off from the end of June to Labor Day. If you are working summer, there's usually a day or 2 before you report for summer school, and then 2 or 3 weeks at the end of the summer.

All in all that's a lot of time off, and earn an additional day per month of Cumulative Absence Reserve (basically sick days) which you can accumulate up to 200 days. You get paid for half of the days you have left when you retire, at your salary at that time.

Last but not least is the benefits. You get very good medical coverage for free, as well as dental, vision, and prescription as part of your union dues. And you also get a real pension, as in the defined benefit type that's rarer than an endangered species these days.

Sounds like a pretty good deal, no? Sorry for the big OT post.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Ergel on December 06, 2013, 10:54:30 AM
And unlike working in a Jewish school they are not allowed to give you work to do at home so they just provide therapists with time to write up their reports during the day. A sweet deal indeed
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
And unlike working in a Jewish school they are not allowed to give you work to do at home so they just provide therapists with time to write up their reports during the day. A sweet deal indeed
That's unions for you. There was actually a whole thing this year where the union was fighting with the DOE about work outside of school hours entering session data into the system, and at the end of it the city had to send out checks to everyone for the time they used the system outside of work.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on December 06, 2013, 11:31:43 AM
Most frum women working in public school are not regular teachers (though a similar case can probably be made for that type of job too), so let's take speech therapy as an example.

Here's a link (http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-831014B39D1E/0/TeacherSalarySchedule20083.pdf) to the salary scale. Right out of graduate school you'd start at the column labeled Approved MA, row 1A, for $51,425. But you can step up to the columns at the right of the page just by adding credits. So let's say you don't want to deal with that during your first school year, so you leave it off to the summer. You take 30 credits of CLEPs (extremely easy to do, it's pretty pathetic) over the summer, and with your year of service, the next year you'll be in the rightmost column, row 2A, for $60,224. You'll then get modest raises over the next few years, till 5 years of service, after which you'll jump to $75,796.

On top of that, if you're working in a District 75 (special ed) school, you have the option of working summer school for an extra 17% of your salary. The amount of days you end up working is less than 17% of the rest of the year, and the environment is generally much more relaxed, so it's a no brainer to work summer too. If you work in a regular school you can still try to get a summer job, but I think you're only guaranteed a spot if you work in D75 the rest of the year.

Next comes schedule. You will work a lot less hours in year (even with summer school) than the average 40 hour desk job, for 2 reasons. First of all, most schools are something like 8-3, maybe more, but definitely not an 8 hour workday. Second of all, here's a list of days schools are closed:
9/2: Labor Day
9/5-9/6: Rosh Hashana
10/14: Columbus Day
11/11: Veterans Day
11/28-11/29: Thanksgiving
12/23-1/1: Winter Recess
1/20: MLK Day
2/17-2/21: Midwinter Recess
4/14-4/22: Spring Recess
5/26: Memorial Day
If you're not working summer, you're then usually off from the end of June to Labor Day. If you are working summer, there's usually a day or 2 before you report for summer school, and then 2 or 3 weeks at the end of the summer.

All in all that's a lot of time off, and earn an additional day per month of Cumulative Absence Reserve (basically sick days) which you can accumulate up to 200 days. You get paid for half of the days you have left when you retire, at your salary at that time.

Last but not least is the benefits. You get very good medical coverage for free, as well as dental, vision, and prescription as part of your union dues. And you also get a real pension, as in the defined benefit type that's rarer than an endangered species these days.

Sounds like a pretty good deal, no? Sorry for the big OT post.

Yes this sounds amazing. Are other places as generous as NY? (NJ)

What kinds of jobs other than speech therapist are available?

Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on December 06, 2013, 11:40:20 AM
Yes this sounds amazing. Are other places as generous as NY? (NJ)

What kinds of jobs other than speech therapist are available?

Thanks for your time.

Even within NY things vary greatly. Within NYC, all schools are part of the NYC Department of Education. Outside of NYC, generally each county is divided into it's own district, with each district being a separate entity. I believe the same is true in NJ. Some places may even be better off than NYC DOE, but my understanding is that's not the case.

As far as what types of jobs they have:

Link (http://Current Hiring Needs and Guidelines
The NYCDOE hired more than 5,000 new teachers to NYC public schools for the 2013-14 school year. At the present time, public schools in NYC may hire external teachers (teachers not currently employed by the NYCDOE) in the following subject areas:

Special Education
Speech
English as a Second Language
General Science (Middle School)
Earth Science)
Quote
Current Hiring Needs and Guidelines
The NYCDOE hired more than 5,000 new teachers to NYC public schools for the 2013-14 school year. At the present time, public schools in NYC may hire external teachers (teachers not currently employed by the NYCDOE) in the following subject areas:

Special Education
Speech
English as a Second Language
General Science (Middle School)
Earth Science

Link (http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/personnel/default.htm)
Quote
In addition to teachers, the Department of Education employs a wide variety of professionals and para-professionals in our schools to help children learn and grow in a safe environment. Read more about these titles, how to apply, and our current needs in the following areas:

Substitute Teachers
Paraprofessionals
Pupil Personnel Services: Attendance Teachers, Counselors, Social Workers, and School Psychologists
Occupational and Physical Therapists
Speech Improvement / Speech and Language Pathology / SLP (Medicaid Speech Services)
Audiologists
School Secretaries, Lab Specialists, and other positions

Teachers and speech therapists are definitely in the same category for salary and benefits, but I know at least some of these other categories are not (occupational therapists). That's not to say those jobs are any worse off, I just don't know the details.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 06, 2013, 12:15:35 PM
Ans this is why it eats me up when ppl say that teachers are underpaid. I'm not saying it's an easy job but for the amount of work and education required, it can be a pretty sweet gig.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on December 06, 2013, 12:20:30 PM
Ans this is why it eats me up when ppl say that teachers are underpaid. I'm not saying it's an easy job but for the amount of work and education required, it can be a pretty sweet gig.

Not teachers working in religious schools. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 07, 2013, 06:41:33 PM
Not teachers working in religious schools.

True, I wasn't referring to religious schools.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 11, 2013, 10:18:34 PM
http://theuglyvolvo.com/2013/12/10/a-ten-month-olds-letter-to-santa/
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: george on December 11, 2013, 10:27:06 PM
http://theuglyvolvo.com/2013/12/10/a-ten-month-olds-letter-to-santa/
very cute
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: AJK on December 15, 2013, 12:41:00 PM
Ans this is why it eats me up when ppl say that teachers are underpaid. I'm not saying it's an easy job but for the amount of work and education required, it can be a pretty sweet gig.

http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Seems you'd enjoy.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on December 15, 2013, 01:53:08 PM
http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

Seems you'd enjoy.

Yup, that article is classic. I quote it at least once or twice a month!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 28, 2013, 08:29:57 PM
http://www.modernmom.com/bc7d2082-3b35-11e3-be8a-bc764e04a41e.html
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on January 07, 2014, 07:44:11 PM
http://www.howtobeadad.com/2014/20420/defense-against-misinformed-parenting-advice
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2014, 05:42:17 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7992579584/hA988604B/)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on January 14, 2014, 06:34:16 PM
LOL!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: HP58 on January 14, 2014, 06:56:20 PM
ROTFL! Where'd you find that?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Nitantnel on January 14, 2014, 09:07:18 PM
LOL!
+1, this is great!
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: thaber on January 22, 2014, 02:05:56 AM
+1, this is great!
+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: yehuda S on February 11, 2014, 02:54:07 PM
http://youtu.be/4AhGvR0143s

Warning: one mild off-color word.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: kracked dude on February 11, 2014, 03:34:38 PM


Warning: one mild off-color word.
FTFY
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 23, 2014, 10:05:55 PM
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5112915?ir=Parents&utm_campaign=041714&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-parents&utm_content=Title
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on September 08, 2014, 09:47:30 AM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8307807744/h6DFB414F/)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 16, 2014, 05:47:52 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8399303680/hB627EA8C/)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 11, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
So, this is a funny conversation my wife and I recently had and after having it did I only start actually thinking about it.

I have a 2.5 year old daughter. She doesn't always do what I want and I think that to a certain degree that is ok and she can have her own opinion. However, I recently realized how well reverse psychology works on her. "Don't sit nicely! No, no, no. You are not allowed to sit nicely at the table" Next thing I know, all she can do is sit nicely. This applies to eating certain foods, playing with certain toys, going to brush her teeth etc.

While I love how I can get her to do the stuff I want and need her to do my wife started disliking it bc what, according to her, it essentially does is make her (want to) misbehave more bc in actuality she is not listening to me.

Not sure what to think about it. Be happy I can get her to do the stuff I want her to do or empower her to not listen..

I am a bit torn and would love to hear some similar experiences and how they were dealt with.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: lunatic on February 11, 2015, 08:57:11 PM
So, this is a funny conversation my wife and I recently had and after having it did I only start actually thinking about it.

I have a 2.5 year old daughter. She doesn't always do what I want and I think that to a certain degree that is ok and she can have her own opinion. However, I recently realized how well reverse psychology works on her. "Don't sit nicely! No, no, no. You are not allowed to sit nicely at the table" Next thing I know, all she can do is sit nicely. This applies to eating certain foods, playing with certain toys, going to brush her teeth etc.

While I love how I can get her to do the stuff I want and need her to do my wife started disliking it bc what, according to her, it essentially does is make her (want to) misbehave more bc in actuality she is not listening to me.

Not sure what to think about it. Be happy I can get her to do the stuff I want her to do or empower her to not listen..

I am a bit torn and would love to hear some similar experiences and how they were dealt with.

I  actually have a 2.5 year old who is exactly like this,  and I had the same thoughts....  What I decided was,  instead of saying "you can't eat.." we say "you don't know how"  or something like that
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 11, 2015, 09:50:02 PM
I  actually have a 2.5 year old who is exactly like this,  and I had the same thoughts....  What I decided was,  instead of saying "you can't eat.." we say "you don't know how"  or something like that

Hmm. I do agree that I like that better. Sends a completely different message. Ill try that tomorrow and report back! Thx
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on February 11, 2015, 09:52:58 PM
So, this is a funny conversation my wife and I recently had and after having it did I only start actually thinking about it.

I have a 2.5 year old daughter. She doesn't always do what I want and I think that to a certain degree that is ok and she can have her own opinion. However, I recently realized how well reverse psychology works on her. "Don't sit nicely! No, no, no. You are not allowed to sit nicely at the table" Next thing I know, all she can do is sit nicely. This applies to eating certain foods, playing with certain toys, going to brush her teeth etc.

While I love how I can get her to do the stuff I want and need her to do my wife started disliking it bc what, according to her, it essentially does is make her (want to) misbehave more bc in actuality she is not listening to me.

Not sure what to think about it. Be happy I can get her to do the stuff I want her to do or empower her to not listen..

I am a bit torn and would love to hear some similar experiences and how they were dealt with.
Don't worry too much one way or the other. It's a phase, they get wise eventually :P
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: lunatic on February 11, 2015, 09:53:56 PM
Hmm. I do agree that I like that better. Sends a completely different message. Ill try that tomorrow and report back! Thx

But it does not work quite as well...
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ckmk47 on February 11, 2015, 10:12:38 PM
I  actually have a 2.5 year old who is exactly like this,  and I had the same thoughts....  What I decided was,  instead of saying "you can't eat.." we say "you don't know how"  or something like that
See if you can transition to "I wonder if you can.."  so she can prove to you that she can.  And then it's positive all the way around.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 11, 2015, 10:15:34 PM
So, this is a funny conversation my wife and I recently had and after having it did I only start actually thinking about it.

I have a 2.5 year old daughter. She doesn't always do what I want and I think that to a certain degree that is ok and she can have her own opinion. However, I recently realized how well reverse psychology works on her. "Don't sit nicely! No, no, no. You are not allowed to sit nicely at the table" Next thing I know, all she can do is sit nicely. This applies to eating certain foods, playing with certain toys, going to brush her teeth etc.

While I love how I can get her to do the stuff I want and need her to do my wife started disliking it bc what, according to her, it essentially does is make her (want to) misbehave more bc in actuality she is not listening to me.

Not sure what to think about it. Be happy I can get her to do the stuff I want her to do or empower her to not listen..

I am a bit torn and would love to hear some similar experiences and how they were dealt with.
I know I'm probably gonna be on an island here but are you bothered by the fact that you are using This trick getting her to do what you want; essentially controlling her.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 11, 2015, 10:23:13 PM
I know I'm probably gonna be on an island here but are you bothered by the fact that you are using This trick getting her to do what you want; essentially controlling her.

Yes - she doesnt know it all yet. She needs to brush her teeth, go to bed at a certain time, eat dinner etc.

I make her do them bc that is something I cant just leave up to her and not for the control I get to exercise. I am just looking for some better ways of conveying this information to her. But i've read some good thought processes here.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 11, 2015, 10:42:38 PM
Yes - she doesnt know it all yet. She needs to brush her teeth, go to bed at a certain time, eat dinner etc.

I make her do them bc that is something I cant just leave up to her and not for the control I get to exercise. I am just looking for some better ways of conveying this information to her. But i've read some good thought processes here.
Of course there are things that are non negotiable. Don't get me wrong i use these tactics and incentives etc..all the time. But when i do a I. sometimes feel like I'm quelling my kid.
As a parent i find there are no limits to the amount of opportunities i have to "control" my kids. So i try to limit these tactics.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 07:57:07 AM

Of course there are things that are non negotiable. Don't get me wrong i use these tactics and incentives etc..all the time. But when i do a I. sometimes feel like I'm quelling my kid.
As a parent i find there are no limits to the amount of opportunities i have to "control" my kids. So i try to limit these tactics.

Agreed. I don't try to exercise control whenever I can. She learns her own lessons and makes her own decisions. I only intervene when it has to be or to teach a more long term lesson that I deem important.

My question was more along the lines of what strategy ppl use to do that (rather then when or for what) as this new one I tried worked but left me with a bit of a wrong gut feeling.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Mordyk on February 12, 2015, 08:21:59 AM
One major thing i have learned since i have children is that you cant always exactly control your kids.  I always looked at my sister that she cant control her kids because her son is so wild and takes toys away from kids.  My daughter is now almost two and does the same sometimes. We do try to somewhat  discipline her when she does that.   We really explain to her how its not right but as a girl that stay home the whole day and plays with her own toys she is not that used to sharing. kids are born with characteristics that takes a long time to shape. Dont always judge the parents on a childs behavior
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 08:40:33 AM
One major thing i have learned since i have children is that you cant always exactly control your kids.  I always looked at my sister that she cant control her kids because her son is so wild and takes toys away from kids.  My daughter is now almost two and does the same sometimes. We do try to somewhat  discipline her when she does that.   We really explain to her how its not right but as a girl that stay home the whole day and plays with her own toys she is not that used to sharing. kids are born with characteristics that takes a long time to shape. Dont always judge the parents on a childs behavior

Lol! I think its hilarious when we all have play dates or Shabbes meals and 2 kids are misbehaving in that fashion.

Parent A to his kid: " Share the toys, its not nice to take them"
Parent B to Parent A: " No, no, no. They need to learn how to share. Your kid should play with them"

A vicious cycle that never ends ..  :D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 08:51:29 AM
Agreed. I don't try to exercise control whenever I can. She learns her own lessons and makes her own decisions. I only intervene when it has to be or to teach a more long term lesson that I deem important.

My question was more along the lines of what strategy ppl use to do that (rather then when or for what) as this new one I tried worked but left me with a bit of a wrong gut feeling.
Ok fair enough, except I would think that t when it comes to teaching the long term lessons is when i would be most inclined to not use this tactics as they divert from the actually lesson. It's these lessons that I want my children to comprehend, internalize and ultimately decide how and when to implement. 
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 09:00:10 AM
One major thing i have learned since i have children is that you cant always exactly control your kids.  I always looked at my sister that she cant control her kids because her son is so wild and takes toys away from kids.  My daughter is now almost two and does the same sometimes. We do try to somewhat  discipline her when she does that.   We really explain to her how its not right but as a girl that stay home the whole day and plays with her own toys she is not that used to sharing. kids are born with characteristics that takes a long time to shape. Dont always judge the parents on a childs behavior
+1 I hate to say it because I feel like my mom but you can't understand  until you have your own children.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
Ok fair enough, except I would think that t when it comes to teaching the long term lessons is when i would be most inclined to not use this tactics as they divert from the actually lesson. It's these lessons that I want my children to comprehend, internalize and ultimately decide how and when to implement.

Yes. Thus me trying to find a better way of doing it. Even after short term success, I am not happy with the method and am looking for better ways of giving over the lessons.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: JoeCha on February 12, 2015, 09:25:44 AM
I know I'm probably gonna be on an island here but are you bothered by the fact that you are using This trick getting her to do what you want; essentially controlling her.
So what do you do when your kid doesn't want to go to bed and it's almost midnight?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 09:42:11 AM
So what do you do when your kid doesn't want to go to bed and it's almost midnight?
Explain that it's very late and she will be very tired tomorrow at school if she doesn't go to sleep now. It works all the time......


Jk/I wish

The real answer is, As i said above, there are plenty If Times that I do these tactics but my perspective on parenting is to limit this as much As possible. Even with that I probably spend a good portion of my parenting time "controlling" my kids.

Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: ckmk47 on February 12, 2015, 09:56:26 AM
So what do you do when your kid doesn't want to go to bed and it's almost midnight?
Sometimes we have to go back to our parents/ grandparents method of "Do it because I said so!"  Many things cannot be explained and reasoned with a small child. And crying IS allowed - not preferred, but not to be feared by parents, either.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 09:58:04 AM
Sometimes we have to go back to our parents/ grandparents method of "Do it because I said so!"  Many things cannot be explained and reasoned with a small child. And crying IS allowed - not preferred, but not to be feared by parents, either.

Agreed. In the instance of going to bed though I don't know if crying works. At least for nap time it never worked on my end. It would just work her up too much and would end very bad. Thank G-d my daughter was always amazing about going to bed at night :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 10:29:26 AM
with my 3 year old i make little competitions. for example after storytime on the couch i get up and tell her "i'm so lucky that today i'm going to be the one to turn out the light in your room" she screams NO! and runs to turn it off... it's a cakewalk from there to get her to bed. if she starts acting up during the day and i want her to color or something i tell her "lets see who can color the nicest". these usually work and i don't feel bad for 'tricking' her.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 10:33:20 AM
with my 3 year old i make little competitions. for example after storytime on the couch i get up and tell her "i'm so lucky that today i'm going to be the one to turn out the light in your room" she screams NO! and runs to turn it off... it's a cakewalk from there to get her to bed. if she starts acting up during the day and i want her to color or something i tell her "lets see who can color the nicest". these usually work and i don't feel bad for 'tricking' her.

Agreed. Only problem: Now you need to color with her and dont get a break :)

Which is why I now have 2. That is how I solve problems :P. Hope he grows up fast so they can entertain each other. lol.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Mordyk on February 12, 2015, 10:35:16 AM
with my 3 year old i make little competitions. for example after storytime on the couch i get up and tell her "i'm so lucky that today i'm going to be the one to turn out the light in your room" she screams NO! and runs to turn it off... it's a cakewalk from there to get her to bed. if she starts acting up during the day and i want her to color or something i tell her "lets see who can color the nicest". these usually work and i don't feel bad for 'tricking' her.
i give my daughter choices. i ask if she wants to kiss the mezuza first or say shema first, and we get to cover both :D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 10:39:34 AM
i give my daughter choices. i ask if she wants to kiss the mezuza first or say shema first, and we get to cover both :D
ye, i do that in the mornings. do you want to get dressed first or eat breakfast? whatever works :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 10:42:24 AM
Agreed. Only problem: Now you need to color with her and dont get a break :)

Which is why I now have 2. That is how I solve problems . Hope he grows up fast so they can entertain each other. lol.
Lol but 2 only make things more difficult. I can only speak for the first year+ but when I'm flying solo i find it very difficult to entertain both. They're on such different levels.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 10:43:24 AM
ye, i do that in the mornings. do you want to get dressed first or eat breakfast? whatever works :)
Tried that but usually the Answer is "neither i want to play first"
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 10:48:07 AM
Tried that but usually the Answer is "neither i want to play first"
the only toy dd plays with is her iphone (yes, i'm one of those awful parents). in that case i tell her she can't have it till she's dressed. it's fantastic motivation.



before you guys rip me to shreds about the phone- i asked her pediatrician what she thinks and the doc said that in this day and age it's totally normal and not a problem. also she mostly plays games that teach her shapes (she know all the basics now plus heart, star, hexagon, etc), colors, numbers, letters, etc. she only watches educational tv shows.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Mordyk on February 12, 2015, 10:53:38 AM
my daughter is less then 2 and knows the whole abc. definitely thanks to barney! :D
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 10:55:50 AM
the only toy dd plays with is her iphone (yes, i'm one of those awful parents). in that case i tell her she can't have it till she's dressed. it's fantastic motivation.



before you guys rip me to shreds about the phone- i asked her pediatrician what she thinks and the doc said that in this day and age it's totally normal and not a problem. also she mostly plays games that teach her shapes (she know all the basics now plus heart, star, hexagon, etc), colors, numbers, letters, etc. she only watches educational tv shows.
I am similarly guilty, my daughter has her own tablet. But I only let her use it to watch Daniel the tiger which teaches great lessons. ( we actually discuss the lessons with my daughter like when she doesn't want to try something new. Well ask her "what does Daniel say about trying new food" . which reminds me of a funny story. After once losing it and yelling at my daughter she looks at me camly and says "when you're Angery you need to take a deep breath and count to 4, that's what Daniel the tiger says")
We also limit her time on the tablet mostly to non school days and Fridays. Otherwise she gets really cranky after watching.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 10:58:54 AM
another point i'll say that Elmo said something about going to the dentist so she asked to go!

also in lue of characters- isn't Curious George the WORST?!? he gets into all sorts of trouble and doesn't care and gets rewarded!!! i hate that guy
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 11:08:43 AM
another point i'll say that Elmo said something about going to the dentist so she asked to go!

also in lue of characters- isn't Curious George the WORST?!? he gets into all sorts of trouble and doesn't care and gets rewarded!!! i hate that guy

Don't know about curious george but in regards to books, be careful of Elouise! Boy oh boy the stuff she does :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
I am similarly guilty, my daughter has her own tablet. But I only let her use it to watch Daniel the tiger which teaches great lessons. ( we actually discuss the lessons with my daughter like when she doesn't want to try something new. Well ask her "what does Daniel say about trying new food" . which reminds me of a funny story. After once losing it and yelling at my daughter she looks at me camly and says "when you're Angery you need to take a deep breath and count to 4, that's what Daniel the tiger says")
We also limit her time on the tablet mostly to non school days and Fridays. Otherwise she gets really cranky after watching.

She is off Iphone and Ipad bc she used to be obsessed and just like kids are , they figure it all out and she would be tricky, start with an app and than find her way to youtube and be obsessed.

She is very "All or Nothing" so whenever it was time to put down the device she would freak out. She has been so much better without the device that for now, Ill keep it that way.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 11:11:43 AM
Don't know about curious george but in regards to books, be careful of Elouise! Boy oh boy the stuff she does :)
reminds me of: (mild language)
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/31648094.jpg
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on February 12, 2015, 11:13:46 AM
Otherwise she gets really cranky after watching.
Wonder what that's all about...

I like exposing kids to technology to some degree so they aren't amazed by it one day in the wrong way and also to have basic knowledge of how to use things. I'd say that starts at about 4/5.

That's not to say that I've never showed my 3 year old nephew a video or let him see pictures on the phone but once a week? It easily gets out of hand with even the best of intentions at that rate IMHO.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 11:13:59 AM
reminds me of: (mild language)
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/31648094.jpg

Lol
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 11:15:34 AM
She is off Iphone and Ipad bc she used to be obsessed and just like kids are , they figure it all out and she would be tricky, start with an app and than find her way to youtube and be obsessed.

She is very "All or Nothing" so whenever it was time to put down the device she would freak out. She has been so much better without the device that for now, Ill keep it that way.
Sounds like my daughter..what i started doing with mostly successful results is before i press play I show her the red statusbc bar and tell her that when it reaches the end we need to shut it off. Usually it works but if she's fat enough she will sometimes start the next episode and say the bars only in the beggining.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 11:16:11 AM
Wonder what that's all about...

I like exposing kids to technology to some degree so they aren't amazed by it one day in the wrong way and also to have basic knowledge of how to use things. I'd say that starts at about 4/5.

That's not to say that I've never showed my 3 year old nephew a video or let him see pictures on the phone but once a week? It easily gets out of hand with even the best of intentions at that rate IMHO.

haha dd has iphone in the morning, uses an iPad in preschool, plus iphone in the evenings after dinner.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 11:17:13 AM
Wonder what that's all about...

I like exposing kids to technology to some degree so they aren't amazed by it one day in the wrong way and also to have basic knowledge of how to use things. I'd say that starts at about 4/5.

That's not to say that I've never showed my 3 year old nephew a video or let him see pictures on the phone but once a week? It easily gets out of hand with even the best of intentions at that rate IMHO.
Agreed but sometimes as a parent you gotta do things that aren't ideall. Its more about finding a proper balance.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: skyguy918 on February 12, 2015, 11:26:25 AM
Too many comments for me to address them all, but I have a few general comments to add to this discussion.

It seems to me that as parents, there will always be a balance between doing things in the way you feel will have the absolute best 'chinuch' effect on them, and doing things in whatever way solves the issue the quickest/easiest. If you can always do it the best/chinuch way, good for you, your children will probably be better off for it. But unless you're always doing it the quickest/easiest way, don't beat yourself up about it, you're not permanently damaging your child or anything. Sometimes we have to make choices between wasting an hour that we don't have to spare trying to get a child to do something, and figuring out a quick trick, that may not be the absolute best method of parenting, to get them to do it quickly. I hope that makes sense to people.

As far as the actual methods, you have to find what works for each child at any particular time. Every child will be different, and each child changes over time in this regard (very rapidly I might add).
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: sky121 on February 12, 2015, 11:37:35 AM
Agreed but sometimes as a parent you gotta do things that aren't ideall. Its more about finding a proper balance.

I agree. But I think with that theory people and parents allow themselves to let their kids do things that at the end of the choice they have the choice and control to do differently and better especially when it comes to technology.
I recently met a really nice family while traveling and got into this discussion with them.
Their kids go to a religious day school and they limit their kids 9,8, and 5 to half hour of screen time a week.  I was impressed. I realize it's hard in today's world and I realize as a parent it's an easy fix and help but that's not necessarily a good excuse and I see it easily abused because "sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do".
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Sport on February 12, 2015, 11:39:08 AM
Too many comments for me to address them all, but I have a few general comments to add to this discussion.

It seems to me that as parents, there will always be a balance between doing things in the way you feel will have the absolute best 'chinuch' effect on them, and doing things in whatever way solves the issue the quickest/easiest. If you can always do it the best/chinuch way, good for you, your children will probably be better off for it. But unless you're always doing it the quickest/easiest way, don't beat yourself up about it, you're not permanently damaging your child or anything. Sometimes we have to make choices between wasting an hour that we don't have to spare trying to get a child to do something, and figuring out a quick trick, that may not be the absolute best method of parenting, to get them to do it quickly. I hope that makes sense to people.

As far as the actual methods, you have to find what works for each child at any particular time. Every child will be different, and each child changes over time in this regard (very rapidly I might add).
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks
And by the way it goes both ways. Just like it's not the end of the world if yousacrifice long term parenting for immidiate needs, it's not the end of the world if you let your child do something that's against your better judgment once in a while ie staying up late not eating a healthy break fast.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 12, 2015, 11:44:01 AM
Too many comments for me to address them all, but I have a few general comments to add to this discussion.

It seems to me that as parents, there will always be a balance between doing things in the way you feel will have the absolute best 'chinuch' effect on them, and doing things in whatever way solves the issue the quickest/easiest. If you can always do it the best/chinuch way, good for you, your children will probably be better off for it. But unless you're always doing it the quickest/easiest way, don't beat yourself up about it, you're not permanently damaging your child or anything. Sometimes we have to make choices between wasting an hour that we don't have to spare trying to get a child to do something, and figuring out a quick trick, that may not be the absolute best method of parenting, to get them to do it quickly. I hope that makes sense to people.

As far as the actual methods, you have to find what works for each child at any particular time. Every child will be different, and each child changes over time in this regard (very rapidly I might add).

+1
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 11:52:48 AM
Too many comments for me to address them all, but I have a few general comments to add to this discussion.

It seems to me that as parents, there will always be a balance between doing things in the way you feel will have the absolute best 'chinuch' effect on them, and doing things in whatever way solves the issue the quickest/easiest. If you can always do it the best/chinuch way, good for you, your children will probably be better off for it. But unless you're always doing it the quickest/easiest way, don't beat yourself up about it, you're not permanently damaging your child or anything. Sometimes we have to make choices between wasting an hour that we don't have to spare trying to get a child to do something, and figuring out a quick trick, that may not be the absolute best method of parenting, to get them to do it quickly. I hope that makes sense to people.

As far as the actual methods, you have to find what works for each child at any particular time. Every child will be different, and each child changes over time in this regard (very rapidly I might add).

Agreed. I was just looking for ways to better do the quickest/easiest :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 12, 2015, 12:56:50 PM
Agreed. I was just looking for ways to better do the quickest/easiest :)
Operant conditioning; it's old-school but reward vs punishment works really well for many. A sticker chart or something to that effect as a reward for listening right away (having prizes in a dedicated prize drawer that they can see and pick from when they complete the chart is helpful in making in more tangible). For punishment it can be a variety of things and to each their own. Personally we try to avoid punishment by implying that the punishment is that she won't get her sticker (in effect just not getting the reward), this may or may not work depending on the stubbornness and temperament of the child. Punishment can be not getting video time, only one book at bedtime etc are reasonable as well.

If used correctly it can be very effective. The one problem that studies have found with this method is that when the reward/punishments stop being consistent (when kid is older for example) the habits may dissipate with them. This can be alleviated by keeping it a little more random (they don't necessarily get a reward every time and sometimes they get a reward when they are not expecting it). This removes the tit-for-tat mentality of the good behavior and creates more of a positive mindset without always expecting a reward.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 12, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Operant conditioning; it's old-school but reward vs punishment works really well for many. A sticker chart or something to that effect as a reward for listening right away (having prizes in a dedicated prize drawer that they can see and pick from when they complete the chart is helpful in making in more tangible). For punishment it can be a variety of things and to each their own. Personally we try to avoid punishment by implying that the punishment is that she won't get her sticker (in effect just not getting the reward), this may or may not work depending on the stubbornness and temperament of the child. Punishment can be not getting video time, only one book at bedtime etc are reasonable as well.

Is how we originally trained her to go on the potty which is flawless for a long time already AND how I got her to eat some Salmon and veggies she never had before :)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 12, 2015, 12:59:53 PM
Is how we originally trained her to go on the potty which is flawless for a long time already AND how I got her to eat some Salmon and veggies she never had before :)
Yup, oldie-but-goodie.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: killamatic12 on February 19, 2015, 01:26:18 PM
Reading through this WHOLE thread was like watching a soap opera; there's a common problem that could be dealt with and one guy does (or in this case "says") something not normal and in the end everyone understand that his case was an unusual one and they lived happily ever after.
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 23, 2015, 06:22:38 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8450064640/hD795D8C6/)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: stbaum on February 24, 2015, 11:33:54 AM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8450064640/hD795D8C6/)
+100
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: good sam on February 25, 2015, 11:19:30 AM
Why a duck?
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: benjie1305 on February 26, 2015, 10:49:00 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/gbYVqS0.png)
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on December 24, 2015, 07:06:38 PM
Bump
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: lunatic on December 24, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Bump
Lol,  bring him over here
Title: Re: The truth about children - Warning: Controversial
Post by: Moshe123 on February 14, 2017, 05:13:08 PM
Bump

Yeah. Why not.

OP stopped posting, likely because he was attacked a lot, but he still lurks.

Let's hear from him how it is after this amount of time has passed.