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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 07:58:59 PM

Title: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 07:58:59 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/09/health/us-flu-season/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/health/texas-teen-killed-flu/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/opinion/pho-flu-season/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 10, 2013, 07:59:33 PM
Nope!!  It's not necassarily the safest thing.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 10, 2013, 08:10:41 PM
No, never, don't do it, I am not knowledgeable to beat out a fellow Am Keshei Orefer in a detailed argument, but I have heard the two sides duel it out multiple times and the bottom line is: (discussing only extra vaccines at this point like chicken pox and flu) It's bad for you and it's a money making scam that a lot of brainwashing medical ppl all greedily agree and cover up tons of facts to the extent that medical journals have inaccurate info to make ppl believe these thing are good for you. Know someone that had a relative die from it and many ppl that it didn't even help with the flu (they even get wrong flu vaccinated most years). Hope the no vote wins big this year and even bigger next year!!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 10, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
No, never, don't do it, I am not knowledgeable to beat out a fellow Am Keshei Orefer in a detailed argument, but I have heard the two sides duel it out multiple times and the bottom line is: (discussing only extra vaccines at this point like chicken pox and flu) It's bad for you and it's a money making scam that a lot of brainwashing medical ppl all greedily agree and cover up tons of facts to the extent that medical journals have inaccurate info to make ppl believe these thing are good for you. Know someone that had a relative die from it and many ppl that it didn't even help with the flu (they even get wrong flu vaccinated most years). Hope the no vote wins big this year and even bigger next year!!

In 1976 1 person died from the flu and 25 from the vaccine (and, possibly some crippled, don't recall 100%). The US Government was sued for over a billion dollars, they have since passed a law which makes them immune to these lawsuits.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:16:18 PM
Now for some actual facts.

There are between 3,000 and 49,000 deaths from the flu in the US alone every year.
The annual average is 36,000 deaths from the flu in the US.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: sky121 on January 10, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
I have not but I plan to.  But I don't get it every year.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 10, 2013, 08:24:31 PM
Now for some actual facts.

There are between 3,000 and 49,000 deaths from the flu in the US alone every year.
The annual average is 36,000 deaths from the flu in the US.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

Fine, but those facts say nothing about the "shot"
How many would have died from the flu whether they got the shot or not? (age, sick etc;)
How many statisticaly wise does the shot make sick or affect in any way?
How many of those that died did indeed get the shot?
What is the average age (are they old) of those that die?
How many of them were sick from before?



8 ways to avoid the flu naturally  (http://www.naturalnews.com/019194_flu_the_health.html)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: sky121 on January 10, 2013, 08:25:39 PM

How many of those that died did indeed get the shot?

I'm curious about this myself.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:25:46 PM
No, never, don't do it, I am not knowledgeable to beat out a fellow Am Keshei Orefer in a detailed argument, but I have heard the two sides duel it out multiple times and the bottom line is: (discussing only extra vaccines at this point like chicken pox and flu) It's bad for you and it's a money making scam that a lot of brainwashing medical ppl all greedily agree and cover up tons of facts to the extent that medical journals have inaccurate info to make ppl believe these thing are good for you. Know someone that had a relative die from it and many ppl that it didn't even help with the flu (they even get wrong flu vaccinated most years). Hope the no vote wins big this year and even bigger next year!!
Right, because you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who died from the vaccine.
As opposed to the tens of thousands of Americans who die annually from the flu.

Same logic that causes diseases that had been nearly eradicated to come back due to the lack of herd immunity.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:26:31 PM
Fine, but those facts say nothing about the "shot"
How many would have died from the flu whether they got the shot or not? (age, sick etc;)
How many statisticaly wise does the shot make sick or affect in any way?
How many of those that died did indeed get the shot?
Feel free to search for those facts but don't claim that 1 person dies from the flu per year. 

If there was a significant death toll from getting the vaccine it would all over the news.  Hint: It's not.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:27:37 PM
Oh and most medical plans cover the flu vaccine with no copay.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: lala on January 10, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Now for some actual facts.

There are between 3,000 and 49,000 deaths from the flu in the US alone every year.
The annual average is 36,000 deaths from the flu in the US.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

But 50 people overall may have died from the vaccine! Its obviously more dangerous to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 10, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
But 50 people overall may have died from the vaccine! Its obviously more dangerous to be vaccinated.

one has nothing to do with the other.
How many of those that died were old or sick etc;
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:42:34 PM
Even if the majority that died were children or elderly having adults vaccinated means they'll pass it on to fewer kids and elderly people.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 10, 2013, 08:55:35 PM
Right, because you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who died from the vaccine.
As opposed to the tens of thousands of Americans who die annually from the flu.

Same logic that causes diseases that had been nearly eradicated to come back due to the lack of herd immunity.


Closer, know someone who's bro died... I don't know the one who's dead, cause he's dead... But for everyone else here, they know someone (me) who knows someone (well, not gonna name him) who knew someone (his bro) who died. So pretty much, ya... I don't know anyone who didn't die because they got vaccine, but either way... The statistic of one to zero, or 39000 (out of billions of ppl who didn't die and didn't vaccinate) is not what would influence my decision, it's hearing both sides and deciding based on my own decision making ability...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 08:59:30 PM
39,000 out of billions? I didn't realize there are billions of Americans?

If you mean worldwide, there are 500,000 flu deaths per year.

Anti-vaccine paranoids should really all just be put together in one nice colony for a couple years and we'll see the results of the rest of the world and the anti-vaccine colony :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 10, 2013, 09:02:10 PM
my bad 308,745,538 ppl in 2010...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 10, 2013, 09:17:22 PM
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: lala on January 10, 2013, 09:22:22 PM
one has nothing to do with the other.
How many of those that died were old or sick etc;

sarcasm
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 09:27:21 PM
If you are not a doctor, listen to your doctor. Any doc that hears us talking will laugh and think "noob", just like you think "noob" when a new DDFer asks some silly question. It's laughable to hear from people who have no clue how to read medical statistics (me included), or even know where to go to read the studies, listen to someone who claims that their relative died from a vaccine, when he probably he died from an unknown cause after receiving a vaccine, but that's besides the point. If you were never trained in medicine be smart and listen to you doctor, not your great-aunt.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 10, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
If you are not a doctor, listen to your doctor. Any doc that hears us talking will laugh and think "noob", just like you think "noob" when a new DDFer asks some silly question. It's laughable to hear from people who have no clue how to read medical statistics (me included), or even know where to go to read the studies, listen to someone who claims that their relative died from a vaccine, when he probably he died from an unknown cause after receiving a vaccine, but that's besides the point. If you were never trained in medicine be smart and listen to you doctor, not your great-aunt.
And how do you decide between doctor A and doctor B?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 09:32:54 PM
And how do you decide between doctor A and doctor B?
Ask YOUR doctor, I hope you pick someone you trust, because if you don't listen to your doctor, ein ledavar sof, you can always find a respected dissenting opinion. You have to trust your doctor, after that I believe you did your hishtadlus, the rest is in the hands of Hashem. Because if you have to second guess your doctor, and google all his decisions, Lo shavkes chayee.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 10, 2013, 09:34:18 PM
Ask YOUR doctor, I hope you pick someone you trust, because if you don't listen to your doctor, ein ledavar sof, you can always find a respected dissenting opinion, you have to trust your doctor, after that I believe you did your hishtadlus, the rest is in the hands of Hashem. Because if you have to second guess your doctor, and google all his decisions, Lo shavkes chayee.
IME Doctors actually like a patient who googles before going in for an appointment.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 09:35:01 PM
IME Doctors actually like a patient who googles before going in for an appointment.
b4, not after!!!
And even b4 IME sometimes they are annoyed, (which I believe they're wrong for being annoyed).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 10, 2013, 09:37:42 PM
b4, not after!!!
And even b4 IME sometimes they are annoyed, (which I believe they're wrong for being annoyed).
Yes after also, at the next appointment. You need a good doctor though, not one who just works in the mega-hospital machine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 10:11:09 PM
Yes after also, at the next appointment. You need a good doctor though, not one who just works in the mega-hospital machine.
I don't know any doctor who if he tells you to take a vaccine, and you Google and come back and say that you read it's dangerous, who'll appreciate it. And I have a great doctor, not one who just works in the mega-hospital machine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2013, 10:31:08 PM
I know my Doctor for 28 years. He's not part of a conspiracy, get the shots!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 10:31:46 PM
I know my Doctor for 28 years. He's not part of a conspiracy, get the shots!
+1,000
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 10, 2013, 10:36:01 PM
In Lakewood, ALL the pediatricians (besides one who is retiring/being retired from chemed) strongly urge all to get all possible shots.
How was that a reply to my post?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 10, 2013, 10:38:03 PM
I don't know any doctor who if he tells you to take a vaccine, and you Google and come back and say that you read it's dangerous, who'll appreciate it. And I have a great doctor, not one who just works in the mega-hospital machine.
Obviously if you just say your wrong blah blah blah the doctor would be annoyed, but if you bring in facts a good doctor would gladly dispute them for you. (Just saying I was one of the first if not the first kid in the US to get the chickenpox vaccine)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2013, 10:39:34 PM
How was that a reply to my post?
I misunderstood, take it as an addition to your post
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: eliteflyer on January 10, 2013, 10:59:30 PM
Oh and most medical plans cover the flu vaccine with no copay.
+1 and many employers and universities offer it for free to employees/students.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Ergel on January 11, 2013, 12:41:21 AM
Anti-vaccine paranoids should really all just be put together in one nice colony for a couple years and we'll see the results of the rest of the world and the anti-vaccine colony :P
+1000000000
and it's one thing to do it for yourself, but to not vaccinate your children and put them in harms way should be criminal. These people should be locked up
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 02:01:17 AM
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm


Read yours now pls read these, or google Dr Tenpenny youtube...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
Not a simple subject... The media is very one sided, the reality is that it is very complicated...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 08:46:10 AM
The media is very one sided, the reality is that it is very complicated...
That sounds too suspiciously similar to what all conspiracy theorists say.

The media IS very one sided but the 1 side is MONEY, so if they would have an expose about vaccines killing people, the only thing stopping them from printing it is enough money from Big Pharma to make it worth their while... (hint: i doubt their getting it)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 09:47:43 AM
That sounds too suspiciously similar to what all conspiracy theorists say.

The media IS very one sided but the 1 side is MONEY, so if they would have an expose about vaccines killing people, the only thing stopping them from printing it is enough money from Big Pharma to make it worth their while... (hint: i doubt their getting it)

We'll only know in the future, nothing proven either way at this point. (People also defended Madoff at one point in time)

I know that I mentioned that I know someone who had died, but that's not at all I'm worried about. This is part of the problem of statistics as well. Let's assume that there is a zero percent chance of being killed by a vaccine, if it's bad for my health then why would I do it? In the package inserts to the vaccine it shows all side effects that are openly admitted to besides for other stuff that is harder to find... The next question is what good the vaccine can do for my health. With some vaccines there is a valid answer, with the flu shot, I haven't found it yet...


It's not just a "conspiracy theory" Dr. Tenpenny and Dr. Mercola are educated and know far more that the avg. doctor. My proof is that they publish a lot of material that is easily accessible and it is very difficult to find an inaccuracy in their materials. They are obviously not the only two as well, just I found that their info has been very useful to me, so I'll share.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 10:21:08 AM
We'll only know in the future, nothing proven either way at this point. (People also defended Madoff at one point in time)

I know that I mentioned that I know someone who had died, but that's not at all I'm worried about. This is part of the problem of statistics as well. Let's assume that there is a zero percent chance of being killed by a vaccine, if it's bad for my health then why would I do it? In the package inserts to the vaccine it shows all side effects that are openly admitted to besides for other stuff that is harder to find... The next question is what good the vaccine can do for my health. With some vaccines there is a valid answer, with the flu shot, I haven't found it yet...


It's not just a "conspiracy theory" Dr. Tenpenny and Dr. Mercola are educated and know far more that the avg. doctor. My proof is that they publish a lot of material that is easily accessible and it is very difficult to find an inaccuracy in their materials. They are obviously not the only two as well, just I found that their info has been very useful to me, so I'll share.

The overwhelming majority of doctors, by a very big margin, say that it's safe. Please answer what's the incentive for them to lie. And if you say they're paid off by Big Pharma, then you're a clown!


What's the incentive for the overwhelming majority of doctors to lie??

Until this question is answered, the conversation is over, IMHO.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 10:23:41 AM
Obviously if you just say your wrong blah blah blah the doctor would be annoyed, but if you bring in facts a good doctor would gladly dispute them for you. (Just saying I was one of the first if not the first kid in the US to get the chickenpox vaccine)
BTW, regarding the chicken pox vaccine, when a person is older and they weren't vaccinated or had chicken pox before, chicken pox is life threatening.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 10:25:03 AM
The overwhelming majority of doctors, by a very big margin, say that it's safe. Please answer what's the incentive for them to lie. And if you say they're paid off by Big Pharma, then you're a clown!


What's the incentive for the overwhelming majority of doctors to lie??

Until this question is answered, the conversation is over, IMHO.


Big talker. I'd like to see how YOU would react to a visit from the black-ops :P



Though, on a serious note, if doctors charge for each shot they would have an incentive. Insurance compnies on the other hand would not pay for a non-effective shot that doesn't save them money in the long run.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 10:28:22 AM
Big talker. I'd like to see how YOU would react to a visit from the black-ops :P



Though, on a serious note, if doctors charge for each shot they would have an incentive. Insurance compnies on the other hand would not pay for a non-effective shot that doesn't save them money in the long run.
I actually believe that the aliens are the ones visiting the doctors.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2013, 10:31:26 AM
It is given out for free in school; you just line up and sign the waiver and they stick you.

But, I didn't get it. I've never gotten the flu in my life, so I think the chances are pretty low. Multiply that by the harm that the flu causes, which is pretty low, and you get very low. Compare that to your arm aching for an afternoon, and the possibility of side effects--including the flu--and it isn't at all clear that it makes any sense to get it.

But now that it's an epidemic, I'm considering it. But I probably still won't.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 10:33:13 AM
It is given out for free in school; you just line up and sign the waiver and they stick you.

But, I didn't get it. I've never gotten the flu in my life, so I think the chances are pretty low. Multiply that by the harm that the flu causes, which is pretty low, and you get very low. Compare that to your arm aching for an afternoon, and the possibility of side effects--including the flu--and it isn't at all clear that it makes any sense to get it.

But now that it's an epidemic, I'm considering it. But I probably still won't.
I didn't take it yet, but those that took it told me it's a very unpainful shot.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 10:44:09 AM
It is given out for free in school; you just line up and sign the waiver and they stick you.

But, I didn't get it. I've never gotten the flu in my life, so I think the chances are pretty low. Multiply that by the harm that the flu causes, which is pretty low, and you get very low. Compare that to your arm aching for an afternoon, and the possibility of side effects--including the flu--and it isn't at all clear that it makes any sense to get it.

But now that it's an epidemic, I'm considering it. But I probably still won't.
Getting the flu is not a known side affect.
The viruses in inactivated influenza vaccine have been killed, so you cannot get influenza from the vaccine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 11, 2013, 10:48:45 AM
Getting the flu is not a known side affect.
The viruses in inactivated influenza vaccine have been killed, so you cannot get influenza from the vaccine.

It is possible to get mild flu-like symptoms. If anyone has had the flu (especially this year's strain) you would have wished you had gotten the flu shot. I know I do... was too difficult to get up here in the Great White North.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
It is given out for free in school; you just line up and sign the waiver and they stick you.

But, I didn't get it. I've never gotten the flu in my life, so I think the chances are pretty low. Multiply that by the harm that the flu causes, which is pretty low, and you get very low. Compare that to your arm aching for an afternoon, and the possibility of side effects--including the flu--and it isn't at all clear that it makes any sense to get it.

But now that it's an epidemic, I'm considering it. But I probably still won't.
I have multiple relatives sick in bed with high fevers and throwing up with the flu this season.  It went through entire Pittsburgh chabad yeshiva and got nearly everyone there sick.
Besides for hundreds of thousands of sick Americans there are tens of thousands of American deaths.  That's hardly nothing.

Either way I was vaccinated (as can anyone from 2-49) by nasal mist.  No pain, no side affects for 99.99% of people.
As for the doctors doing this to make money? I've seen the compensation, they make literally a couple dollars from my insurance company, that alone would be incentive not to offer it :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 11:46:12 AM
The overwhelming majority of doctors, by a very big margin, say that it's safe. Please answer what's the incentive for them to lie. And if you say they're paid off by Big Pharma, then you're a clown!


What's the incentive for the overwhelming majority of doctors to lie??

Until this question is answered, the conversation is over, IMHO.

Who said the doctors lie, maybe they don't know... Let's say the doctors, to the best of their knowledge, know that it's good, they are now telling you the truth that they think you should have every shot out there. I still will do my own research, now that I know that there is another side to the story, hear them out and judge on my own.
If it is true that anyone is lying it is the system that educates the doctors, the ones that allow the vaccines to be in the system in the first place, and ppl like this clown

Then there’s Paul Offit, perhaps the most widely-quoted defender of vaccine safety.

He’s gone so far as to say babies can tolerate “10,000 vaccines at once.”

This is how Offit described himself in a previous interview: “I’m the chief of infectious disease at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and a professor of pediatrics at Penn’s medical school,” he said.

Offit was not willing to be interviewed on this subject but like others in this CBS News investigation, he has strong industry ties. In fact, he’s a vaccine industry insider.


I already posted links to other side of story, here it is again... You can bash what I say since I am not knowledgeable in the field, I am just an innocent bystander juding 2 sides of a story: Find something wrong with what they say and I will reconsider...

google Dr Tenpenny youtube...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 11:47:29 AM
There are many creepy people in my town who are spreading the nearly eradicated Whooping cough, pertussis. They have actually murdered a friend of mines baby. Many people are not aware that adults should get a booster shot as they may be able to carry the disease in a mild form and C"V pass it on to babies and cause death and brain damage, or just a few weeks in the ICu. Also all pregnant woman in the third trimester should get a booster for pertussis and a flu shot to protect the newborn in the first two months of its life from these maniac families who blindly follow kookey conspiracy theories instead of listening to good doctors and rabbonim.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 11:48:55 AM
Who said the doctors lie, maybe they don't know... Let's say the doctors, to the best of their knowledge, know that it's good, they are now telling you the truth that they think you should have every shot out there. I still will do my own research, now that I know that there is another side to the story, hear them out and judge on my own.
If it is true that anyone is lying it is the system that educates the doctors, the ones that allow the vaccines to be in the system in the first place, and ppl like this clown

Then there’s Paul Offit, perhaps the most widely-quoted defender of vaccine safety.

He’s gone so far as to say babies can tolerate “10,000 vaccines at once.”

This is how Offit described himself in a previous interview: “I’m the chief of infectious disease at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and a professor of pediatrics at Penn’s medical school,” he said.

Offit was not willing to be interviewed on this subject but like others in this CBS News investigation, he has strong industry ties. In fact, he’s a vaccine industry insider.


I already posted links to other side of story, here it is again... You can bash what I say since I am not knowledgeable in the field, I am just an innocent bystander juding 2 sides of a story: Find something wrong with what they say and I will reconsider...

google Dr Tenpenny youtube...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
Hardly two sides, A couple of penny doctors verses the entire scientific community.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
One more thing: Sadly, usually the most militant anti shot people are parents of autistic children who lack enough faith, and are desperately seeking someone to blame.
I know this is harsh but its the sad reality.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2013, 11:52:54 AM
Oh, I'm not believing a conspiracy. But, for a healthy young person, there really is no lasting effect of getting the flu. You get sick for a few days--but people get sick for a few days all the time.

And I have personally never ever gotten the flu. Or, if I did, it felt the same as any other cold I've gotten. So I'm hardly convinced that I should be scared.

Do you buy insurance in case your house burns down? Yes.
Do you buy insurance in case you rip your suit? No. Because it's not such a big deal.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
Hardly two sides, A couple of penny doctors verses the entire scientific community.
+1
Theres 2 sides to every story, moon landing hoax, UFO abductions, 9-11 truthers you name it.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 11:54:35 AM
Oh, I'm not believing a conspiracy. But, for a healthy young person, there really is no lasting effect of getting the flu. You get sick for a few days--but people get sick for a few days all the time.

And I have personally never ever gotten the flu. Or, if I did, it felt the same as any other cold I've gotten. So I'm hardly convinced that I should be scared.

Do you buy insurance in case your house burns down? Yes.
Do you buy insurance in case you rip your suit? No. Because it's not such a big deal.
BTW getting a bad flu really sucks.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
Oh, I'm not believing a conspiracy. But, for a healthy young person, there really is no lasting effect of getting the flu. You get sick for a few days--but people get sick for a few days all the time.

And I have personally never ever gotten the flu. Or, if I did, it felt the same as any other cold I've gotten. So I'm hardly convinced that I should be scared.

Do you buy insurance in case your house burns down? Yes.
Do you buy insurance in case you rip your suit? No. Because it's not such a big deal.
Fair enough, but you don't know who you'll pass it onto.
For me as a parent it's a no-brainer.  But even otherwise who knows the consequences of who you will be responsible for giving it to and if they are more vulnerable than you.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
Fair enough, but you don't know who you'll pass it onto.
For me as a parent it's a no-brainer.  But even otherwise who knows the consequences of who you will be responsible for giving it to and if they are more vulnerable than you.

Hmmm. I didn't think of that. Lemme think about that.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 11:58:40 AM
Oh, I'm not believing a conspiracy. But, for a healthy young person, there really is no lasting effect of getting the flu. You get sick for a few days--but people get sick for a few days all the time.

And I have personally never ever gotten the flu. Or, if I did, it felt the same as any other cold I've gotten. So I'm hardly convinced that I should be scared.

Do you buy insurance in case your house burns down? Yes.
Do you buy insurance in case you rip your suit? No. Because it's not such a big deal.
Plus if you have a real Job can you afford to be out for ten days?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 11:59:07 AM
I have multiple relatives sick in bed with high fevers and throwing up with the flu this season.  It went through entire Pittsburgh chabad yeshiva and got nearly everyone there sick.
Besides for hundreds of thousands of sick Americans there are tens of thousands of American deaths.  That's hardly nothing.
Did they?
Quote from Dr Mercola
"Optimize your vitamin D levels. As I've previously reported, optimizing your vitamin D levels is one of the absolute best strategies for avoiding infections of ALL kinds, and vitamin D deficiency is likely the TRUE culprit behind the seasonality of the flu -- not the flu virus itself. This is probably the single most important and least expensive action you can take. Regularly monitor your vitamin D levels to confirm your levels are within the therapeutic range of 50-70 ng/ml.
Ideally, you'll want to get all your vitamin D from sun exposure or a safe tanning bed, but as a last resort you can take an oral vitamin D3 supplement. According to the latest review by Carole Baggerly (Grassrootshealth.org), adults need about 8,000 IU's a day."


Either way I was vaccinated (as can anyone from 2-49) by nasal mist.  No pain, no side affects for 99.99% of people.
As for the doctors doing this to make money? I've seen the compensation, they make literally a couple dollars from my insurance company, that alone would be incentive not to offer it :P

So far I was commenting on the shot... I can ask my sources and let you know (my future opinion) about the mist. And you can always take vitamin D3 as well (if you really want to be protected from the flu, you can do a 2bm of vaccine +vitamins as it won't change your credit score). We don't get much sun exposure in winter so look up the kosher vitamin store.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 12:03:01 PM
ROFL...get your D3 by exposing yourself to solar radiation and put yourself at great risk for skin cancer better than having a vaccine.
Oh wait, maybe skin cancer is only caused by vaccines ::)

And I know people taking D3 supplements who got the flu...what a bunch of malarkey.  I didn't realize Clevelanders were into this tinfoil hat crap as well, thought it was an NY disease :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2013, 12:07:54 PM
Plus if you have a real Job can you afford to be out for ten days?

law school is hardly a real job. I can be out for weeks.

3L   8)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 12:08:17 PM
Hardly two sides, A couple of penny doctors verses the entire scientific community.

My religious beliefs are also in the minority, yet I don't look at the other side, see that they are entire community and join... Concept of majority rules works in things like Halacha, G-d and Rabbi's never told me to go like majority in these matters. Anyways, please see the other side, and what they have to say, see if you find some parts to disagree with them (not me). Btw it's many more than 2, I just brought 2 sources that were helpful to me...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 12:16:51 PM
ROFL...get your D3 by exposing yourself to solar radiation and put yourself at great risk for skin cancer better than having a vaccine.
Oh wait, maybe skin cancer is only caused by vaccines ::)

And I know people taking D3 supplements who got the flu...what a bunch of malarkey.  I didn't realize Clevelanders were into this tinfoil hat crap as well, thought it was an NY disease :P
I knew from beginning that taking sides publically on vaccines would bring some pretty strong opposition, see my first comment on the subject... As for bashing vitamin D, I don't think you'll find many doctors to agree that it's bad for you. It is prob one of the most important things to improve health...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/12/16/my-one-hour-vitamin-d-lecture-to-clear-up-all-your-confusion-on-this-vital-nutrient.aspx
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
Dude, you've overdosed on conspiracy websites.  These are disproven by millions of highly educated doctors, but that of course proves nothing to conspiracy theorists.
Our government and medical system isn't out to harm/kill the majority of us.

Vaccines are the most amazing thing (and they were invented by Jews) that happened in the 20th century.  Kids often used to die and not make it out of childhood, epidemics killed millions of people.  What you have sunk to is pure evil.

Maybe too much time in the sun tanning beds will do that to your brain.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2013, 12:31:00 PM
My religious beliefs are also in the minority, yet I don't look at the other side, see that they are entire community and join... Concept of majority rules works in things like Halacha, G-d and Rabbi's never told me to go like majority in these matters. Anyways, please see the other side, and what they have to say, see if you find some parts to disagree with them (not me). Btw it's many more than 2, I just brought 2 sources that were helpful to me...
I was not going to get in to this but you mentioned it so here goes:
As religious Jews we believe in hashgacha, that life and death are in his hands. We are supposed to trust in G-d, have Bitachon that he will protect us. We must also do some Hishtadlus to take care of ourselves. After all it is the "world of action".
The question is how much can we rely on g-d verses "taking care of ourselves.
The accepted principle in halacha and hashkafa is called "shomer pesoim Hashem", this means that as long as what we are doing is considered the "norm" we don't have to worry about extreme occurrences. EG. Its ok to drive a car even though there are inherent dangers in driving a car. Its ok to let kids run and play, we dont have to obsessively worry that they may get hit bay a car and keep them locked up as this is the normal  way of the world.
Therefore since vaccinations are generally considered safe, and they are safely used by a vast majority of normal people, from a Halachic and hashkafic point of view one does not need to be concerned, even if there is a possibility of some risk.
It also happens to be that I personally know of someone who asked a very big leading halachic authority about shots, he said one must vaccinate and one is not permitted to be afraid of some not general accepted concern. One who does not vaccinate and causes others harm is responsible.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
I don't have time now to search official sources but vitamin D deficiency IS considered a big problem in higher latitudes. I know in Montreal doctors recommend supplements, though IIRC it's not a problem in most of the United States.
That said; Vitamin D alone is not enough to replace vaccinations.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 12:57:28 PM
I don't have time now to search official sources but vitamin D deficiency IS considered a big problem in higher latitudes. I know in Montreal doctors recommend supplements, though IIRC it's not a problem in most of the United States.
That said; Vitamin D alone is not enough to replace vaccinations.
I take vitamin D supplements.  But going to a tanning salon to get D3, that's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 01:19:55 PM
But going to a tanning salon to get D3, that's ludicrous.
+100
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 01:26:40 PM
@anti-vaccine-conspiracy-theorists I've been convinced now that I did my research. Thanks for enlightening me! http://www.jewishproblem.com/vaccinations-are-a-jewish-conspiracy-jews-want-to-annihilate-and-rule-us-muslim-cleric/
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 01:27:11 PM
I take vitamin D supplements.  But going to a tanning salon to get D3, that's ludicrous.
Never been to one, but I wouldn't deny that it will add D3 to one's system...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 11, 2013, 01:29:25 PM
Never been to one, but I wouldn't deny that it will add D3 to one's system...
...and melanoma
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 11, 2013, 03:52:04 PM
My religious beliefs are also in the minority, yet I don't look at the other side, see that they are entire community and join... Concept of majority rules works in things like Halacha, G-d and Rabbi's never told me to go like majority in these matters. Anyways, please see the other side, and what they have to say, see if you find some parts to disagree with them (not me). Btw it's many more than 2, I just brought 2 sources that were helpful to me...
Every Religious belief is a minority, christianity is a minority 1/3, islam is a minority 1.5/6, there is no majority. 99% of medical proffesionals say vaccines are safe and crucial!!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
...and melanoma
Being vaccinated=Bad.
Melanoma=Good.

What a bunch of nuts.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 11, 2013, 04:00:24 PM
Every Religious belief is a minority, christianity is a minority 1/3, islam is a minority 1.5/6, there is no majority. 99% of medical proffesionals say vaccines are safe and crucial!!
I like that answer. Never thought of it like that.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 11, 2013, 04:02:18 PM
Dude, you've overdosed on conspiracy websites.  These are disproven by millions of highly educated doctors, but that of course proves nothing to conspiracy theorists.
Our government and medical system isn't out to harm/kill the majority of us.

Vaccines are the most amazing thing (and they were invented by Jews) that happened in the 20th century.  Kids often used to die and not make it out of childhood, epidemics killed millions of people.  What you have sunk to is pure evil.

Did you read or just assume that it's a conspiracy? I'm not asking to attack, just the amount I may look into the response will differ if you read the previously posted links (or watched Dr Tenpenny's 3 hour video). Also, do you have a good link that could answer the concerns that Dr Tenpenny/Dr Mercola have?

I am from other side and not convinced that all vaccines are evil, therefore my family vaccinates (on a different schedule than the usual one). The optional ones, however, like chicken pox and flu (not pure evil) on the other hand, is what I was discussing before.

Good Shabbos
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: plainbachur on January 11, 2013, 04:09:57 PM
Just got my flu shot
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
Also, do you have a good link that could answer the concerns that Dr Tenpenny/Dr Mercola have?
Figures that neither of them are MDs...they're just in it for the money, and there's lots to be made off gullible conpiracy theorists. You've names 2 non-practicing "doctors" out of millions.  Who are both making millions more than their peers who they claim are just in it for the money...

http://scientopia.org/blogs/whitecoatunderground/2009/12/30/damned-lies-and-idiots/
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/February-2012/Dr-Joseph-Mercola-Visionary-or-Quack/
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 12, 2013, 08:04:58 PM
And now they are firing people involved in healthcare for not getting the flu vaccine. 

http://times247.com/articles/trihealth-fires-150-employees-for-declining-flu-shots (http://times247.com/articles/trihealth-fires-150-employees-for-declining-flu-shots)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/03/goshen-hospital-employees-fired-flu-shot_n_2404328.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/03/goshen-hospital-employees-fired-flu-shot_n_2404328.html)
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/08/30/get-flu-shot-or-get-fired-hospital-says/ (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/08/30/get-flu-shot-or-get-fired-hospital-says/)
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20130110/OPINION/301100052/Guest-opinion-Health-workers-fired-skipping-flu-shot?nclick_check=1 (http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20130110/OPINION/301100052/Guest-opinion-Health-workers-fired-skipping-flu-shot?nclick_check=1)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=169225143 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=169225143)

etc; etc;
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 12, 2013, 08:13:27 PM
I wonder if Elvis and JFK received their flu shots this year.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 10:22:15 PM
I was not going to get in to this but you mentioned it so here goes:
As religious Jews we believe in hashgacha, that life and death are in his hands. We are supposed to trust in G-d, have Bitachon that he will protect us. We must also do some Hishtadlus to take care of ourselves. After all it is the "world of action".
The question is how much can we rely on g-d verses "taking care of ourselves.
The accepted principle in halacha and hashkafa is called "shomer pesoim Hashem", this means that as long as what we are doing is considered the "norm" we don't have to worry about extreme occurrences. EG. Its ok to drive a car even though there are inherent dangers in driving a car. Its ok to let kids run and play, we dont have to obsessively worry that they may get hit bay a car and keep them locked up as this is the normal  way of the world.
Therefore since vaccinations are generally considered safe, and they are safely used by a vast majority of normal people, from a Halachic and hashkafic point of view one does not need to be concerned, even if there is a possibility of some risk.
It also happens to be that I personally know of someone who asked a very big leading halachic authority about shots, he said one must vaccinate and one is not permitted to be afraid of some not general accepted concern. One who does not vaccinate and causes others harm is responsible.

If it were only so simple... It's a lot more common than you think to question vaccines. It is becoming more and more popular. I am not saying not to vaccinate as that is probably not the safest thing to do. The question at hand is if you should vaccinate with the reg schedule, or give optional vaccines like flu and chicken pox. So far less than half the ppl that answered this poll had a flu shot (def not 99% yes)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 10:26:44 PM
Every Religious belief is a minority, christianity is a minority 1/3, islam is a minority 1.5/6, there is no majority. 99% of medical proffesionals say vaccines are safe and crucial!!

The percentage of orthodox jews in world (a fraction of 1%) vs. percentage of ppl who don't get a flu shot (maybe 40, 50, 60%).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 10:56:36 PM
Being vaccinated=Bad.
Melanoma=Good.

What a bunch of nuts.

This is a very good point...


Figures that neither of them are MDs...they're just in it for the money, and there's lots to be made off gullible conpiracy theorists. You've names 2 non-practicing "doctors" out of millions.  Who are both making millions more than their peers who they claim are just in it for the money...

http://scientopia.org/blogs/whitecoatunderground/2009/12/30/damned-lies-and-idiots/
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/February-2012/Dr-Joseph-Mercola-Visionary-or-Quack/
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html

They are both DO's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine
Scientopia- does not argue with facts, just a very low class bashing of Tenpenny. The guy he praises instead is Paul Offit who has said that a 2 month old can take 10,000 vaccines at once...
Chicagomag- praises Mercola most of the way, then concludes that he's a quack... Now that you showed this link, I'd like to point out that mercola.com gets 1.9 million unique visitor per month. (He may have a clue what he's talking about, and the holistic approach to health is a lot more popular than 99% vs 1%)

Btw I'm in the middle...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 12, 2013, 11:01:57 PM
My religious beliefs are also in the minority, yet I don't look at the other side, see that they are entire community and join... Concept of majority rules works in things like Halacha, G-d and Rabbi's never told me to go like majority in these matters. Anyways, please see the other side, and what they have to say, see if you find some parts to disagree with them (not me). Btw it's many more than 2, I just brought 2 sources that were helpful to me...
The percentage of orthodox jews in world (a fraction of 1%) vs. percentage of ppl who don't get a flu shot (maybe 40, 50, 60%).
Are you comparing that we orthodox jews have gone against 99% of the world for thousands of years, to going against the vast majority of vaccinaters? We stood up strong against majorities anti our religion, because our parents heard from their parents etc. that G-D told them directly in front of 600,000+ people that He is G-d and He is One, and that we will be his Chosen Nation forever, that's why we ignored the vast majorities. And you go and compare that to Dr. "Ten Pennies for your thoughts"?? No Shaychus!!!!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 11:10:10 PM
Are you comparing that we orthodox jews have gone against 99% of the world for thousands of years, to going against the vast majority of vaccinaters? We stood up strong against majorities anti our religion, because our parents heard from their parents etc. that G-D told them directly in front of 600,000+ people that He is G-d and He is One, and that we will be his Chosen Nation forever, that's why we ignored the vast majorities. And you go and compare that to Dr. "Ten Pennies for your thoughts"?? No Shaychus!!!!

What I am comparing is that ppl here know they are right when it comes to religion, but we are for sure an extreme minority. It is therefore, no proof to me that the majority of Dr's recommend something. I can look into it and make my own decision. The # of Dr's doesn't scare me off.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 11:11:21 PM
Are you comparing that we orthodox jews have gone against 99% of the world for thousands of years, to going against the vast majority of vaccinaters? We stood up strong against majorities anti our religion, because our parents heard from their parents etc. that G-D told them directly in front of 600,000+ people that He is G-d and He is One, and that we will be his Chosen Nation forever, that's why we ignored the vast majorities. And you go and compare that to Dr. "Ten Pennies for your thoughts"?? No Shaychus!!!!

Mazel tov on post # 770!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 12, 2013, 11:13:04 PM
Mazel tov on post # 770!
lol, and it was a great post too.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 11:17:45 PM
When there's a like button, I can come back and like even though it was questioning a comparison that I made...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: moko on January 12, 2013, 11:23:44 PM
Our government and medical system isn't wasn't out to harm/kill the majority of us.
ftfy
pre obamacare :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Ergel on January 12, 2013, 11:31:33 PM
They are both DO's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine
Scientopia-
AKA, not smart enough to be a doctor
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 11:35:53 PM
When they started school, on average, maybe not... The two ppl in the discussion have my vote that they are smarter than the average MD (by far)...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: myb821 on January 12, 2013, 11:41:54 PM
AKA, not smart enough to be a doctor
not true and insulting
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 12, 2013, 11:55:18 PM
My link was to wikipedia, if you look into link it shows that avg scores of ppl that were accepted to MD and DO schools and MD scores are higher. I didn't want to argue the assumption that MD's were smarter ON AVERAGE before entering med school. You can fight that fight if you want, but there are many more damaging assumptions made on this thread, so I let it be...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on January 13, 2013, 12:02:26 AM
FWIW my kid's pediatrician was just telling my wife that he doesn't understand why people in the frm community aren't taking the flu vaccine already.
Says he's already seen three of the potentially fatal strain in his office this season, and the virus hasn't really hit CA yet.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 08:39:25 AM
because our parents heard from their parents etc.
We all know that a story that is told over a thousand times does not change.  ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 13, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/9-reasons-to-completely-ignore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2013, 11:46:55 AM
is it child abuse?
Just met a guy all three of his kids have been very ill for a week, high fever, throwing up etc with the flu because he refused to vaccinate them.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 13, 2013, 12:29:39 PM
is it child abuse?
Just met a guy all three of his kids have been very ill for a week, high fever, throwing up etc with the flu because he refused to vaccinate them.
No.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 13, 2013, 02:58:24 PM
We all know that a story that is told over a thousand times does not change.  ;)
It's printed in the Bible.  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 14, 2013, 01:30:17 AM
is it child abuse?
Just met a guy all three of his kids have been very ill for a week, high fever, throwing up etc with the flu because he refused to vaccinate them.

Yes. If he refused to vaccinate them, and it wasn't a case where the flu season came early before he had a chance to vaccinate them, then that is similar to putting them in a car without a car seat/seat belt.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 14, 2013, 08:53:14 AM
Yes. If he refused to vaccinate them, and it wasn't a case where the flu season came early before he had a chance to vaccinate them, then that is similar to putting them in a car without a car seat/seat belt.

While I wish that were the case, somehow I don't think CPS would get involved
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 09:29:40 AM
Yes. If he refused to vaccinate them, and it wasn't a case where the flu season came early before he had a chance to vaccinate them, then that is similar to putting them in a car without a car seat/seat belt.
While I wish that were the case, somehow I don't think CPS would get involved
::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 14, 2013, 09:41:24 AM
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/9-reasons-to-completely-ignore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

Appreciate the link to some relevant info. Read the article and more importantly the comments... Apparently some highly educated ppl duel it out to some degree and both sides have some good points. For example, do babies in our community really need hepB vaccine as a baby? Has any study been done to show that the amount of aluminum given to young babies is safe in the long run? And the obvious point from the pro-vax side that studies show that vaccines indeed do help eradicate dangerous illnesses (so to not vaccinate at all = not a great plan either).

My conclusion at this point:
Vaccinate = good idea
Vaccinate at current schedule including all optional (aka, hepB to babies chicken pox and flu shot) = Do your own homework and while you're doing it check up on your vitamin D3 levels...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 14, 2013, 09:47:43 AM
is it child abuse?
Just met a guy all three of his kids have been very ill for a week, high fever, throwing up etc with the flu because he refused to vaccinate them.

Ask him to check their vitamin D levels... This will add to discussion and help as we can compare more than just one factor...
If his kids are unhealthy and they didn't vaccinate then both sides of the story will say that they're asking for it... Child abuse for sure not, that would be the equivalent to calling for child abuse if someone feeds the kids a diet high in junk food.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 09:59:53 AM
... and while you're doing it check up on your vitamin D3 levels...
Ask him to check their vitamin D levels...
??? ???
There's a lot more to a healthy immune system than just vitamin D you know...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 14, 2013, 10:41:17 AM
Well aware, but I feel it's too much even to ask for the basic of basics. (We'll see if there is a response) Tafasta meruba lo tafasta...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 14, 2013, 12:11:51 PM
I'm convinced. Getting jabbed right now.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 14, 2013, 12:12:34 PM
I'm convinced. Getting jabbed right now.
You should try the spray.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 14, 2013, 12:46:21 PM
Jab is free from school. I don't pay for what I can get free.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: sky121 on January 14, 2013, 12:47:43 PM
Where can I get the spray besides a doctors office?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
My wife and I got the spray when taking Rafi for his last checkup.  Rafi was the most excited, no shots or sprays for him this time!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 14, 2013, 12:50:23 PM
Appreciate the link to some relevant info. Read the article and more importantly the comments... Apparently some highly educated ppl duel it out to some degree and both sides have some good points. For example, do babies in our community really need hepB vaccine as a baby? Has any study been done to show that the amount of aluminum given to young babies is safe in the long run? And the obvious point from the pro-vax side that studies show that vaccines indeed do help eradicate dangerous illnesses (so to not vaccinate at all = not a great plan either).

My conclusion at this point:
Vaccinate = good idea
Vaccinate at current schedule including all optional (aka, hepB to babies chicken pox and flu shot) = Do your own homework and while you're doing it check up on your vitamin D3 levels...
The problem is that a layman like yourself is not qualified to make a medical decision. Imagine a doc told someone he needs a surgery, the most the patient should do is seek a second opinion from a respected highly trained doctor. Googling it is just ridicules.
I bet you that if I wanted I can take a very ignorant am hoarets and convince him that it permitted to cook xyz on shabbos. Il quote reshonim and achronim and present a very good argument.
Do you see the problem? Neurotic mothers should listen to the doctors, not decide medical issues.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 01:07:13 PM
The problem is that a layman like yourself is not qualified to make a medical decision. Imagine a doc told someone he needs a surgery, the most the patient should do is seek a second opinion from a respected highly trained doctor. Googling it is just ridicules.
I bet you that if I wanted I can take a very ignorant am hoarets and convince him that it permitted to cook xyz on shabbos. Il quote reshonim and achronim and present a very good argument.
Do you see the problem? Neurotic mothers should listen to the doctors, not decide medical issues.
+1
Google is NOT a source of reliable information, at best it's good enough to let you know what to ask your doctor. The internet seems to be populated mostly by morons (for example Googling "did the holocaust happen" will bring you to a whole bunch of holocaust deniers).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 01:08:22 PM
+1
Google is NOT a source of reliable information, at best it's good enough to let you know what to ask your doctor. The internet seems to be populated mostly by morons (for example Googling "did the holocaust happen" will bring you to a whole bunch of holocaust deniers).
+∞
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 14, 2013, 01:28:08 PM
The problem is that a layman like yourself is not qualified to make a medical decision. Imagine a doc told someone he needs a surgery, the most the patient should do is seek a second opinion from a respected highly trained doctor. Googling it is just ridicules.
I bet you that if I wanted I can take a very ignorant am hoarets and convince him that it permitted to cook xyz on shabbos. Il quote reshonim and achronim and present a very good argument.
Do you see the problem? Neurotic mothers should listen to the doctors, not decide medical issues.

You are correct, which is why I didn't make a decision. If I did, I wouldn't have read the articles that ppl of forum sent (including comments), I would have just dismissed it. I'd prefer to update the mashal... Let's say a mechanic told me that I needed 10 things done on my used car (he is the highest educated mechanic in the city), I then go to a guy who fixes cars in his driveway and he says need 1/10 shows me why and goes down list of other nine saying five you don't need at all and other four need in a year maybe, but not now. I then go, now that he showed me around and research on my own. Then I decide to fix 3/10 for now while looking into the rest, all the while not denying the expert is correct, just waiting for more info. I wouldn't actually do this with a car, but health is far more important.
I have spoken with multiple doctors about the subject, again, 2 sides, very complicated.
I don't feel that I have the right to quote them, and wouldn't want to take what one said and quote without permission.
If you're ignorant am haaretz that you are trying to scam went ahead and googled, you heter might not pass the google test. (I am not saying to google Shailas)
I am not a mother, hence the guy's name.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 14, 2013, 01:30:15 PM
(AFAICR i didnt send any articles)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 14, 2013, 01:35:44 PM
(AFAICR i didnt send any articles)

I corrected my post... sorry
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 04:38:07 PM
There's a pediatrician in my neighborhood who doesn't give chickenpox vaccines, and sends patients to get infected from other kids in the neighborhood with chickenpox.

Discuss  ;D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
There's a pediatrician in my neighborhood who doesn't give chickenpox vaccines, and sends patients to get infected from other kids in the neighborhood with chickenpox.

Discuss  ;D
I may be mistaken, but isn't Shingles only a problem for people who have once had Chicken Pox?  Why should anyone be at risk of that anymore?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 14, 2013, 04:43:41 PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't Shingles only a problem for people who have once had Chicken Pox?  Why should anyone be at risk of that anymore?

I did shingles. It's way overrated, in my opinion. Not as bad as the flu.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:44:42 PM
I did shingles. It's way overrated, in my opinion. Not as bad as the flu.
FWIU it's much worse in the elderly.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 04:46:46 PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't Shingles only a problem for people who have once had Chicken Pox?  Why should anyone be at risk of that anymore?

I think you're over my head already.  :P

My understanding of her position is that it's better that the children get it now when the effects are fairly minor. She doesn't want to give them the vaccine because she feels that it's not been fully researched and understood as well as some of the other vaccines out there, or something to that effect.

I don't have first hand experience, it's the pediatrician my sister and brother use for their kids. We're not up to it yet but I'm pretty sure our pediatrician gives the vaccine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
FWIU it's much worse in the elderly.
A lot worse than the flu.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 04:48:49 PM
I don't have first hand experience, it's the pediatrician my sister and brother use for their kids.
Sounds like a quack to me.  Why would it be approved without the proper research?
And find out more about Shingles.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 14, 2013, 05:00:01 PM
Actually, the internets are claiming that shingles is more common because of the vaccine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 05:07:27 PM
Sounds like a quack to me.  Why would it be approved without the proper research?
And find out more about Shingles.
I may be mistaken, but isn't Shingles only a problem for people who have once had Chicken Pox?  Why should anyone be at risk of that anymore?

I did look into it a little (it was only Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt). It sounds like the opposite is true.
Quote
Adults who have had chickenpox as a child are less likely to have shingles in later life if they have been exposed occasionally to the chickenpox virus (for example by their children). This is because the exposure acts as a booster vaccine.

As far as the doctor, she's very well respected, but from what I hear, there are a lot of things she does differently than the other doctors the frum people in the neighborhood use. So even if quack is too much, unorthodox is probably not.

This vaccine is a relatively new invention and the long term effects are not yet known. It's use is not as widespread in many other countries. In the US, Japan, Canada, and Australia they recommend routine immunization of children and susceptible adults. But in the UK and Germany, they have only targeted recommendations (e.g. for susceptible health care workers at risk of exposure), mainly because of the shingles issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 05:09:31 PM
Interesting.  Weird then that I know of quite a few adults with Shingles than I guess?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2013, 05:12:12 PM
Interesting.  Weird then that I know of quite a few adults with Shingles than I guess?

I guess so.

My wife was very against this whole idea, to the point that my sister got insulted. We will almost certainly be vaccinating our son, I was just stirring the pot.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: meshugener on January 14, 2013, 06:39:36 PM
My parents told me I got the chickenpox vaccine, but I had shingles a few years ago.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:43:11 PM
My parents told me I got the chickenpox vaccine, but I had shingles a few years ago.
If you had CP or the vaccine you can get shingles.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 06:53:50 PM
i'm not a virologist but it's my understanding that there is no way for your body/immune system to know if you actually got the infection or just the immunization, am I wrong?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 06:56:14 PM
i'm not a virologist but it's my understanding that there is no way for your body/immune system to know if you actually got the infection or just the immunization, am I wrong?
No.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
My shoulder near where I got the flu shot is buzzy like when your foot is sleeping. Is this normal?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2013, 07:05:19 PM
Yes its normal; the autism spreads from the site of the injection to the reast of the body, give it a day or two and it'll even out :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 07:06:28 PM
I don't get why people would get a shot over the spray.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 07:07:35 PM
I don't get why people would get a shot over the spray.
I heard that the spray is live and the shot is dead, less risk of getting flu.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 07:07:59 PM
Yes its normal; the autism spreads from the site of the injection to the reast of the body, give it a day or two and it'll even out :P
Yikes it's close to my brain!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:10:18 PM
I don't get why people would get a shot over the spray.
Shot has been around longer?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 07:12:03 PM
I heard that the spray is live and the shot is dead, less risk of getting flu.
Boy you've got loads of bad sources. You can't get the flu from the shot or the spray.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 14, 2013, 07:13:18 PM
Yikes it's close to my brain!

That's why many prefer the shot over the spray.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 14, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
From CDC:

Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. The influenza viruses contained in a flu shot are inactivated (killed), which means they cannot cause infection. Flu vaccine manufacturers kill the viruses used in the vaccine during the process of making vaccine, and batches of flu vaccine are tested to make sure they are safe. In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 08:40:18 PM
Boy you've got loads of bad sources. You can't get the flu from the shot or the spray.
The source was my mother  :-[
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 08:41:01 PM
From CDC:

Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. The influenza viruses contained in a flu shot are inactivated (killed), which means they cannot cause infection. Flu vaccine manufacturers kill the viruses used in the vaccine during the process of making vaccine, and batches of flu vaccine are tested to make sure they are safe. In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.
That's me
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 08:47:00 PM
That's exactly why I get the spray.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 08:59:55 PM
That's exactly why I get the spray.
:-[   Do all doctors carry the spray? Why didn't my doctor recommend the spray?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 14, 2013, 10:32:54 PM
:-[   Do all doctors carry the spray? Why didn't my doctor recommend the spray?
I think so. No idea, was he lubavitch?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: ADanFan on January 14, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
Sounds like a quack to me.  Why would it be approved without the proper research?
And find out more about Shingles.

There have been FDA approved vaccines that caused deaths,
so they were later recalled. It takes more years and patients than their studies can provide.

One example (not from a quack site, it's a reg. Gov't site).
Vaccine suspended in 2010  http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/rotavirus
It was popular to give a 5-in-1 vaccine. Also approved and later suspended: http://www.sundaytimes.lk/080629/News/timesnews0011.html
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: moko on January 14, 2013, 10:42:28 PM
I think so. No idea, was he lubavitch?
:D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 14, 2013, 11:42:50 PM
I think so. No idea, was he lubavitch?
Lubavitch? If he'd be lubavitch he would help me out. The lubavitchers excel in Chessed.  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 15, 2013, 01:14:06 AM
That's exactly why I get the spray.
Everyone can't use the spray (age).  ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 01:16:06 AM
Everyone can't use the spray (age).  ;)
I think most here still qualify :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 15, 2013, 01:17:30 AM
I think most here still qualify :D
IIRC it should not be given to very young children (under 2).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 01:18:41 AM
IIRC it should not be given to very young clidren (under 2).
My 18 month old didn't get the flu vaccine either method.
Unless it was included in a previous regimen?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 15, 2013, 02:16:24 AM
There's a pediatrician in my neighborhood who doesn't give chickenpox vaccines, and sends patients to get infected from other kids in the neighborhood with chickenpox.

Discuss  ;D

What about the flu vaccine? Would you be able to find this pediatrician's opinion (and why) thanks!

There are 2 sides to the story.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/02/chicken-pox-vaccine-creates-shingles-epidemic.aspx
http://www.vaccineinformation.org/varicel/qandavax.asp
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Galitzyaner on January 15, 2013, 05:54:44 AM
Michael Savage: don't trust the feds on flu shot! (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/michael-savage-dont-trust-feds-on-flu-shot/)

FTR, Savage earned a bachelor's degree in biology, and holds two master's degrees in medical ethnobotany and medical anthropology from the University of Hawaii, and a Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley, in nutritional ethnomedicine.  He has written books on herbal medicine and homeopathy.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 15, 2013, 05:59:45 AM
Michael Savage: don't trust the feds on flu shot! (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/michael-savage-dont-trust-feds-on-flu-shot/)

FTR, Savage earned a bachelor's degree in biology, and holds two master's degrees in medical ethnobotany and medical anthropology from the University of Hawaii, and a Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley, in nutritional ethnomedicine.  He has written books on herbal medicine and homeopathy.
No need to read any further.  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2013, 08:52:11 AM
Savage is a nut. Does anyone disagree?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2013, 08:56:37 AM
Seeing that people are getting all worked up over what people with PhDs are saying it probably needs to be clarified: The fact that someone has a PhD doesn't automatically qualify him to give an opinion on ANYTHING he wants, a PhD in nutritional ethnomedicine has to do with vaccines about as much as Shimush for Maros helps you give an opinion on Kashrus. You need someone with knowledge and experience in THE FIELD we're talking about.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 15, 2013, 09:23:31 AM
Savage is a nut. Does anyone disagree?
Nope!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 15, 2013, 11:56:20 AM
Michael Savage: don't trust the feds on flu shot! (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/michael-savage-dont-trust-feds-on-flu-shot/)

FTR, Savage earned a bachelor's degree in biology, and holds two master's degrees in medical ethnobotany and medical anthropology from the University of Hawaii, and a Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley, in nutritional ethnomedicine.  He has written books on herbal medicine and homeopathy.

I find him to be extremely entertaining and quite knowledgeable in certain subjects. Part of the problem here is that he is in the entertainment industy... a lot of incentive to say controversial (read: accuracy not required) statements.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 15, 2013, 11:28:53 PM
Michael Savage is really not knowledgeable at all. If he is your source of information, you are doing it wrong.

From the article linked above, italics are mine.

Asking listeners to put aside his political orientation for a moment, talk-radio host Michael Savage questioned the federal government’s recommendation that citizens get a flu shot.
 “Did Harry Reid take a flu shot? Did Barack Obama take a flu shot? Did Barack Obama’s lovely family take a flu shot? Did Joe Biden take a flu shot?” Savage asked.
Good question Savage. Journalism at its best. Before we take the flu shot we must know if all the top Democrats in the country took or not. Because if they did then we should stay far away the shot, because anything the Dems do must be wrong. Or maybe if they didn't take it that would prove it’s all one big left wing conspiracy. Good thing Savage hedged his bets on this and didn't take a position so that when we find out whether they took it or not, he can say “aha! Told you so!”. Now no matter what Biden, Obama, and Reid have done, the shot has become a Democratic weapon against us. Wait what’s that you say? Savage started the article by saying let's put aside all political orientation? So what is he saying now? You mean going from one sentence to the next he contradicts himself? Okay....

“Which of the mandarins took the flu shot?”
I Have no idea what Savage is saying here. Is he trying making fun of Democrats? Chinese Americans? Both? And what does this have to do with his case against the flu shot? Was he drunk when he wrote this?

He explained that he was talking specifically about vaccines and was not advocating the avoidance of all pharmaceuticals.
Known for his many books on herbal medicines, Savage acknowledged he has benefited from “an awful lot of life-saving regular medicines.”
How nice. So this is not about all drugs, just vaccines in general since Savage has “ benefited from life saving medicine”. Meaning the scientific method according to Savage means, “if I experience benefit from it, then it must work and be good. If I never had any experience with this, then it must be bad and not work.” This is just a very absurd statement.

The article is terrible and only gets worse. If I have time I'll dissect this garbage later.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on January 15, 2013, 11:31:06 PM
Michael Savage: don't trust the feds on flu shot! (http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/michael-savage-dont-trust-feds-on-flu-shot/)

FTR, Savage earned a bachelor's degree in biology, and holds two master's degrees in medical ethnobotany and medical anthropology from the University of Hawaii, and a Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley, in nutritional ethnomedicine.  He has written books on herbal medicine and homeopathy.

He also intensely dislikes meztitza b'peh. I don't think he would be your Rov on that either.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on January 15, 2013, 11:34:20 PM
I don't get why people would get a shot over the spray.
It's not considered as effective.
Anyway, I prefer a needle in my arm (with soreness) to shpritz up my nose. But that's me, and I'm weird that way.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 15, 2013, 11:34:55 PM
It's not considered as effective.
Source?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on January 15, 2013, 11:40:00 PM
Source?
I had a better one, but for now: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2012/11/03/kids-flumist-vaccine/1677863/
the difference is that the shot is a dead virus and the spray is a live virus. dead apparently is better for adults.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 12:12:37 AM
I'm still sore in my arm!  :(
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:14:31 AM
I'm still sore in my arm!  :(
Next time get the mist :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 12:16:26 AM
From the article in usa today

"Some doctors, nurses and pharmacists are misinformed about FluMist's safety, says Rachel Vreeman, co-author of Don't Swallow Your Gum!: Myths, Half-Truths, and Outright Lies About Your Body and Health.

Some doctors and pharmacists refuse to stock FluMist, and even caution patients against it, Vreeman says.

"The concerns over FluMist fall in the category of medical myths that even doctors believe," Vreeman says."

That's where i think my mother said she got her info from - her doc!!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:19:02 AM
Myths.
You do seem to buy into too many of them ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Lamdan on January 16, 2013, 12:26:38 AM
Myths.
You do seem to buy into too many of them ;)
yeh but this time my arm is killing  ;D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 12:27:29 AM
yeh but this time my arm is killing  ;D
BTDT.
When you switch to mist you'll never look back.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2013, 01:56:24 AM
I had a better one, but for now: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2012/11/03/kids-flumist-vaccine/1677863/
the difference is that the shot is a dead virus and the spray is a live virus. dead apparently is better for adults.
Hopefully the other source is at least readable and not for laughs...
Before reading on, be aware that I am not an expert in any way, so either I'm really tired or this is one of the most ridiculous thing (ever?) written with a whole bunch of holes in it...
Parts from article in "quotes" and the dash should introduce my comment

"There's mounting evidence that the FluMist nasal spray works much better in kids than an injection, because a person's immune system changes as they age."
-There may be, but I didn't see any in article

"When it comes to flu vaccines, most kids clearly and loudly prefer the nasal spray over the traditional shot in the arm. As it turns out, those instincts are right on the nose."
-And I'll assume that all adults love being stabbed instead

"With mounting evidence that the FluMist nasal spray works much better in kids than an injection, flu experts are considering whether the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should actually steer young children toward the less painful alternative."
-If you just said they don't like being stabbed, why the need to steer?

"The deliberations reflect a growing sense among infectious disease experts that people of different ages may get better protection from different types of vaccines, says Gregory Poland, a professor at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and an adviser to the CDC."
-without being a statistician I'd say that adults 18-50 are included in different ages

"The CDC currently issues only general recommendations for the flu. The agency encourages everyone over age 6 months to get an annual flu vaccine, but doesn't specify which kind. An influenza work group, part of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, is considering whether the CDC should begin tailoring those recommendations, by expressing a preference for FluMist in healthy kids ages 2 to 8, says Poland, a group member."
-Out of two options, can we seriously just let the people pick? What's next the CDC coming to my house and stabbing me and misting my kids while we're sleeping, cause we don't have a choice anyways.

"We've treated all flu vaccines the same, but they are not," says Arnold Monto, a professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. "We're moving away from a one-size-fits-all flu vaccine."
-Just threw up in my mouth...

"Canada and the United Kingdom already express a preference for nasal spray vaccines for children.
A person's immune system changes as they age, says Robert Belshe, director of the vaccine center at St. Louis University.
In a study of children published in The New England Journal of Medicine, Belshe found kids who got FluMist were half as likely to get influenza than those given an injection."
-(In 2010) St. Louis doctors get $2.5 million from Pfizer, Lilly, Glaxo, Merck
Dr. Robert Belshe traveled throughout rural Missouri and Illinois last year to discuss flu vaccines during the H1N1 scare. Drug companies Merck & Co. Inc. and GlaxoSmithKline helped pick up …
-Well I personally will ignore anything with his name on it as he's paid by vaccine companies

"FluMist offered broader protection than the shot, even when the strain of flu virus in circulation wasn't a good match to the strain used in the vaccine, his study found."
-Wonder how that works, I think this is based on theory of evolution, and now FluMist can evolve to protect me from ALL FLU's!!

"In that study, about 5% of children vaccinated with FluMist came down with influenza, compared with 10% of those given an injection."
-This is when I started ROFLing, I hope this is a typo or something, what does this mean that this study proved that someone who gets the flu vax has a higher chance to get flu that a Savage/Mercola following quack? It's gotta be the most poshut thing ever that a vaccine should prevent something like 99.99% - At least! I would say they prob meant .005% and .01% or some smaller number. This isn't even a point of argument among the two sides.

"Not all kids can get FluMist, Belshe says. While injectable vaccines are currently approved for those over 6 months old, FluMist isn't recommended for kids with asthma or babies under age 2, because of a slightly increased risk of wheezing.
Young children seem to respond better than older kids and adults to FluMist, which uses a live, but weakened virus that can't cause influenza, Belshe says."
Blah blah $$$$, I wonder if he makes more or less than $5000 per word... If 5% of kids get the flu, how did his study show that this weak virus can't cause influenza. Apparently, now the study includes a third group, older kids, and they are doomed to stabbing, oh well.

"FluMist doesn't cause the flu, however, because the viruses are specially engineered to grow only at the relatively cool temperatures of the nose. The viruses in FluMist can't reproduce in the lungs, which are a degree or two warmer, says Chris Ambrose, vice president for medical and scientific affairs at MedImmune, which makes FluMist."
-I'd like to quote something else he said at this point. The increase in hospitalizations in children <2 years was driven by children 6–11 months of age (LAIV, 6·1%; TIV, 2·6%; P=0·002) and most of the hospitalizations occurred >42 days after the last dose, were not temporally clustered, and were accounted for by events commonly expected in this population (e.g., respiratory tract and gastrointestinal tract infections). A biological rationale for this increase in late-occurring hospitalizations cannot be readily explained.
-Btw Laiv is live virus and tiv is the shot.

"Since young kids haven't had much exposure to the flu, their immune systems respond vigorously to live viruses, Belshe says. The CDC says FluMist can reduce flu infections by up to 92%."
-Up to 92% of statistics are made up (not sure, but I think I read that in these forums). What is up to?
At this point, I'll theorize that vitamin D3 can reduce flu up to 93% so ha! (can I be wrong with up to?)

"Young adults ages 18 to 49 seem to respond better to the injection, which contains a dead virus that also can't cause influenza, Monto says."
-I'm not making this up. Here's Monto! "We have a good vaccine but not a great vaccine," Dr. Arnold Monto of the University of Michigan, a co-author of the vaccine-effectiveness study, said in an interview. "Every year we see vaccine failures." http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/12/us-scrambles-for-flu-shots-as-death-toll-continues-to-rise/
-If the better one, the injection, is good but not great, what does that make the other one?
-I thought that the live virus can't cause the flu either, just look a few lines up. I hope we all have better attention spans than this!

"Adults over 65 have weaker immune systems and don't respond well to any flu vaccine, even though they are among the most vulnerable to complications of influenza, Belshe says."
-Well that sucks, we're scared of flu, it's dangerous so let's vaccinate everyone. Oh wait, most of the danger is with ppl over 65 and we can't help them. How does this guy even earn his paycheck?

"The Food and Drug Administration has approved a new, high-dose flu shot for seniors that seems a bit better at stimulating the immune system. But definitive studies to show if the vaccine substantially reduces flu infections are still ongoing, Belshe says."
-So instead we'll just give them a higher dose, so they'll just get the flu from the shot!

"While tailoring flu recommendations by age and vaccine type may make sense scientifically, Monto notes there could be practical problems in putting such detailed advice into place."
-A or B, A or B, which one, too hard to decide, this advice would need too much detail, we're only doctors you know...

"Doctors may find it more cumbersome to stock several kinds of flu vaccines, Monto says."
-How can we possible stock BOTH of them?

"Some doctors, nurses and pharmacists are misinformed about FluMist's safety, says Rachel Vreeman, co-author of Don't Swallow Your Gum!: Myths, Half-Truths, and Outright Lies About Your Body and Health.
Some doctors and pharmacists refuse to stock FluMist, and even caution patients against it, Vreeman says.
"The concerns over FluMist fall in the category of medical myths that even doctors believe," Vreeman says.
Staying up to date on vaccine safety "requires people to pay attention, and a lot of them don't, because they're busy with everything else.""
-Hmmm, until now I was neutral when it came to Mist, due to lack of info. Why would article promoting the Mist tell me that even the MD's out there don't trust this FluMist yet? I didn't google this myself it's included in the USAtoday article, how convenient?

"FluMist has been tested in more than 160,000 people says, Ambrose says."
-How many of them were kids, I thought that we were discussing children?

"In order for the viruses in FluMist to actually cause the flu, they would have to undergo four different genetic mutations, according to Poland's 2008 paper in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings."
-Which apparently happens 5% of the time (See above)

"The most common side effects of FluMist are an increased risk of sniffles or congestion, caused by the virus reproducing in the nose, Poland writes. That reproduction helps to stimulate the immune system to make antibodies against the virus."
-Two rounds of sniffles and congestion coming up! (did anyone know the researchers say you really need two of these?)

"And while kids who sneeze out the FluMist viruses could theoretically infect others around them, this has only been documented once, Poland writes. Even then, the infected person didn't get the flu."
-The ppl who make the vaccine admit that It is possible for individuals vaccinated with FluMist to spread the virus to others for up to 21 days after vaccination. For this reason it is recommended that those vaccinated with FluMist avoid close contact with individuals with weak immune systems during that time. see FluMist package insert.

"Relatively few pharmacies, whose vaccine clinics tend to focus on older adults, stock FluMist. In a statement, Walgreens said the number of Walgreens customers who request FluMist is "a very small, single-digit percentage.""
-Apparently all Walgreens employees document every request for a FluMist vaccine, why is this relevant anyways, who cares?

"Recent studies showing its effectiveness, however, have won over many pediatricians, Ambrose says. About 90% of pediatricians now offer it. Among vaccinated children ages 2 to 17, about 40% receive FluMist."
-The other 60% prefer to be stabbed!

"In considering whether to steer patients toward FluMist, the CDC will consider not just its safety and effectiveness, but costs, whether MedImmune could produce an adequate supply and whether it's practical to make the change, says pediatrician Joseph Bocchini of Shreveport, La., a member of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.
Experts will have to consider new issues, as well, including improvements to existing vaccines, Bocchini says. FluMist will be available next year in a form that protects against four viral strains, instead of the standard three. Bocchini expects that flu shots may also include four viral strains next year, as well."
-I thought the vaccine was up to 92% effective, I guess we should go for up to 93% to be even with vitamin D3!

"The committee hasn't yet scheduled a vote on the issue, Bocchini says, and likely won't make a decision for several months."
-In the meantime they will spend and vacation and sit on planes next to others who got a "free flight" from mileage!

-So that's the article, which was supposed to prove that the mist was better for kids and the shot was better for adults under 65, said a whole bunch of ridiculous stuff, and a little bit of useful info, but didn't prove their point.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on January 16, 2013, 02:06:24 AM
I have a feeling that Barryg won't change his mind no matter what he reads  ::)
By the vaccines are never 99.99% some are only 70%- 80%, but they rely on the herd protection.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 16, 2013, 02:14:50 AM
The shot has been around longer than the spray. Does this mean one is safer than the other, no. It does give more data on one than the other. I have not seen one reliable report that says the spray is more effective than the shot. The shot can be used on a larger percentage of the population than the spray. The shot is more readily available than the spray also. If you are such wimps that you can’t take a shot in the arm then go for the spray.  :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 16, 2013, 02:37:07 AM
If you are such wimps that you can’t take a shot in the arm then go for the spray.
Aye Aye, Captain!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 16, 2013, 07:35:53 AM
Be careful with that tone or you will spend the night in the brig!  :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2013, 09:39:04 AM
I have a feeling that Barryg won't change his mind no matter what he reads  ::)
By the vaccines are never 99.99% some are only 70%- 80%, but they rely on the herd protection.
Not true at all. The opposite, very open minded here. To be honest, that's the thing I like most about the forums here, I'm here to learn. In order for the system to work, though, ppl have to share if they know something that others may not be aware of.
The vaccine being 80% effective and 5%, 10% of ppl that were vaccinated still getting the flu are two different numbers. I wonder what percentage of the overall population gets the flu (I haven't had it in almost 20 years, if I had once in my life that's like a 3% rate of getting the flu/ vs. not getting). Why would getting vaccinated put me at 5% or 10%, it should now be lower than 3%.
80% effective would mean, for example, that if 5 people with the flu shared germs with me, I'd be protected from 4 and therefore since most ppl don't share germs with 5 ppl that have flu wouldn't get it. In other words 80% effective would take me from 3% to well under 1%...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 16, 2013, 09:50:01 AM
Not true at all. The opposite, very open minded here. To be honest, that's the thing I like most about the forums here, I'm here to learn. In order for the system to work, though, ppl have to share if they know something that others may not be aware of.
The vaccine being 80% effective and 5%, 10% of ppl that were vaccinated still getting the flu are two different numbers. I wonder what percentage of the overall population gets the flu (I haven't had it in almost 20 years, if I had once in my life that's like a 3% rate of getting the flu/ vs. not getting). Why would getting vaccinated put me at 5% or 10%, it should now be lower than 3%.
80% effective would mean, for example, that if 5 people with the flu shared germs with me, I'd be protected from 4 and therefore since most ppl don't share germs with 5 ppl that have flu wouldn't get it. In other words 80% effective would take me from 3% to well under 1%...
You need to take Math 101.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2013, 10:02:57 AM
You need to take Math 101.
I'll admit that I need more sleep overall, but which part are you referring to?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 16, 2013, 10:21:47 AM
I read somewhere that it is 62% effective, but I didn't read the study to see what the 62% was of.

I assume it means that if you have 400 people and usually 100 of them would get the flu, but with the shot only 38 of them do. So 62% of the cases that would have happened are prevented.

At least, I hope that is what it means, because otherwise it is a meaningless statistic.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2013, 11:23:55 AM
@ barryg, from reading your cherry picked quotes from that article, it seems that it leaves something to be desired. However there are some very good points in there that you simply denigrate bec your mind is already made up.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2013, 04:20:11 PM
@ YankyDoodle
Which points?
I tried not to cherry pick, that's the whole artice.

I think the press has gone mad. Just wondering if anyone else around here appreciates when someone writes an article like that... I think the weatherman does more to earn a paycheck...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2013, 04:41:54 PM
@ YankyDoodle
Which points?
I tried not to cherry pick, that's the whole artice.

I think the press has gone mad. Just wondering if anyone else around here appreciates when someone writes an article like that... I think the weatherman does more to earn a paycheck...

"FluMist offered broader protection than the shot, even when the strain of flu virus in circulation wasn't a good match to the strain used in the vaccine, his study found."
-Wonder how that works, I think this is based on theory of evolution, and now FluMist can evolve to protect me from ALL FLU's!!
Is that really what you took away from that statement? Seemed pretty straightforward and noteworthy to me

"The CDC currently issues only general recommendations for the flu. The agency encourages everyone over age 6 months to get an annual flu vaccine, but doesn't specify which kind. An influenza work group, part of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, is considering whether the CDC should begin tailoring those recommendations, by expressing a preference for FluMist in healthy kids ages 2 to 8, says Poland, a group member."
-Out of two options, can we seriously just let the people pick? What's next the CDC coming to my house and stabbing me and misting my kids while we're sleeping, cause we don't have a choice anyways.

It doesn't even come close to implying that they won't let ppl choose which they like. It just says that based on the data about which is more effective for that age group, the CDC should recommend that FluMist be given to children ages 2-8. Similar to any medical recommendation... such as the recommendation to see a PCP for a yearly checkup and that a pregnant woman should see her OB every so often. Nothing too sinister about those huh?

"We've treated all flu vaccines the same, but they are not," says Arnold Monto, a professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. "We're moving away from a one-size-fits-all flu vaccine."
-Just threw up in my mouth...

This is actually the future of medicine and something that people like you should be excited about.

These are just a few examples. I'm not completely defending the article, but it has a lot more to offer than you give it credit for.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Sammy on January 16, 2013, 04:46:15 PM
Didn't get the shot but just recovered from the flu.... IT was a disaster
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2013, 08:47:25 PM
Reply to YankeeDoodle @ 441

-1- From USA today! (close to bottom of article)
 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/14/can-flu-vaccine-cause-the-flu/1833793/
"If you have the misfortune of being exposed to a different flu strain, the vaccine can't protect you, says Michael Jhung, a medical officer at the CDC."

-2- They already recommend that everyone get the flu-vax, and were talking about educated MD's here. (Besides for Walgreens, apparently) I'd assume most doctors carry the unusually high variety of ALL Of THE, umm 2 types, now out of the two between the patient and the doctor, they should know enough to decide between the two without further instruction.
When I went to buy a Pesach hot water urn, there was a salesman who was newer on the job and he quickly explained the differences between seven types of kettles easily. It shouldn't be too hard here; shot/spray, live/dead, better for young/may be better for older...

-3- I ROFL since, again since one-size-fits-all to the two repetition kinda got to me. You win on this one, I guess...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 17, 2013, 10:06:59 AM
Reply to YankeeDoodle @ 441

-1- From USA today! (close to bottom of article)
 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/14/can-flu-vaccine-cause-the-flu/1833793/
"If you have the misfortune of being exposed to a different flu strain, the vaccine can't protect you, says Michael Jhung, a medical officer at the CDC."

The quote was regarding a study that showed that mist is better than shot at protecting slightly different strains of flu... not an imossible concept. The CDC may or may not have run the same experiment with different results... It doesn't make the original article irresponsible bec. they quote a study that is not unanimous.

-2- They already recommend that everyone get the flu-vax, and were talking about educated MD's here. (Besides for Walgreens, apparently) I'd assume most doctors carry the unusually high variety of ALL Of THE, umm 2 types, now out of the two between the patient and the doctor, they should know enough to decide between the two without further instruction.
When I went to buy a Pesach hot water urn, there was a salesman who was newer on the job and he quickly explained the differences between seven types of kettles easily. It shouldn't be too hard here; shot/spray, live/dead, better for young/may be better for older...

Not sure what your problem is here... Yes, I think it's pathetic if a doctor's office can't stock 2 options. That is not the discusion. The CDC recommends what it believes to be the best option for different age groups. This informs the doctors and allows them to advise their patients to the best of their abilities. These are the same people who recommend that infants under 6 months should not receive the flu shot... Should they not recommend that either bec. it's a simple choice, yes or no?

-3- I ROFL since, again since one-size-fits-all to the two repetition kinda got to me. You win on this one, I guess...

Having only one option (now 2 with the flumist) is part of the reason that the vaccine is not infallible. It doesn't take individuals unique quirks into account. This is not regarding only these 2 options for this year, but flu vaccines every year. It targets the strain of flu, instead of targeting how the strain of flu affects ppl with certain DNA markers.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 17, 2013, 08:38:50 PM
Didn't get the shot but just recovered from the flu.... IT was a disaster

Vitamin D? (curious)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 17, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
Did anyone get the flu and use Tamiflu?
Did it help, how long till recovery?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: whacked1 on January 18, 2013, 04:11:08 AM
Did anyone get the flu and use Tamiflu?
Did it help, how long till recovery?
yup, i had the flu two weeks ago i used tamiflu was feeling better almost instantly (within 24 hrs). they say you have to catch it right away for it to work though
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 20, 2013, 11:49:12 AM
You got tested to confirm it was the flu?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: whacked1 on January 20, 2013, 03:56:20 PM
You got tested to confirm it was the flu?
yup, that test is painful!!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 20, 2013, 04:13:13 PM
yup, that test is painful!!
right, Been there done that. ouch
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: U-no-me! on January 22, 2013, 07:56:06 PM

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot (http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 22, 2013, 07:58:24 PM
http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot (http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot)
Why just Europe? Why wouldn't it effect others elsewhere
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 22, 2013, 10:27:04 PM
Why just Europe? Why wouldn't it effect others elsewhere

Answer is in the article "Because it contains an adjuvant, or booster, it was not used in the United States because drug regulators there are wary of adjuvanted vaccines."
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 23, 2013, 01:07:01 AM
Answer is in the article "Because it contains an adjuvant, or booster, it was not used in the United States because drug regulators there are wary of adjuvanted vaccines."


From 2009 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/swine-flu-vaccine-fearmongering/
1 point for Mercola?


Claim: Joseph Mercola writes about “Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret.” He has claimed that the vaccine adjuvant squalene is dangerous, that the Gulf War Syndrome was caused by the squalene in anthrax vaccines, that squalene is “good” or “bad depending on how it gets into your body: “Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.” And the only reason they put adjuvants in vaccines is to save money.

 

Fact: Squalene is found naturally in the human body. It is a precursor of cholesterol and other compounds necessary to human health. Squalene antibodies were found in Gulf War veterans; but the rate turned out to be no higher in those who had Gulf War Syndrome than in those who didn’t. Squalene antibodies were found at similar rates in people who had never been exposed to squalene in vaccines. The anthrax vaccine has been ruled out as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Anyway, it turns out there was no squalene in the anthrax vaccine!

 

American flu vaccines do not contain adjuvants, but maybe they should. Adjuvants enhance the body’s innate immune response to the antigens in vaccines, making vaccines more effective.  And they allow for broader cross-reactivity against viral strains not included in the vaccine.   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931151?ordinalpos=33&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Mercola says adjuvants are added just to increase profits, but the pharmaceutical and health industries could make far more money treating patients in an epidemic than they could ever make trying to prevent one.

 

There is a large body of data demonstrating the safety of squalene. Flu vaccines containing MF59, a squalene-based adjuvant, have been used in Europe for 10 years, with 22,000,000 doses given; and no serious adverse events have occurred, only mild local reactions.  The vaccine does not raise the incidence or titers of anti-squalene antibodies. The World Health Organization (WHO) considers it safe. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 09:14:43 AM

From 2009 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/swine-flu-vaccine-fearmongering/
1 point for Mercola?


Claim: Joseph Mercola writes about “Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret.” He has claimed that the vaccine adjuvant squalene is dangerous, that the Gulf War Syndrome was caused by the squalene in anthrax vaccines, that squalene is “good” or “bad depending on how it gets into your body: “Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.” And the only reason they put adjuvants in vaccines is to save money.

 

Fact: Squalene is found naturally in the human body. It is a precursor of cholesterol and other compounds necessary to human health. Squalene antibodies were found in Gulf War veterans; but the rate turned out to be no higher in those who had Gulf War Syndrome than in those who didn’t. Squalene antibodies were found at similar rates in people who had never been exposed to squalene in vaccines. The anthrax vaccine has been ruled out as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Anyway, it turns out there was no squalene in the anthrax vaccine!

 

American flu vaccines do not contain adjuvants, but maybe they should. Adjuvants enhance the body’s innate immune response to the antigens in vaccines, making vaccines more effective.  And they allow for broader cross-reactivity against viral strains not included in the vaccine.   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931151?ordinalpos=33&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Mercola says adjuvants are added just to increase profits, but the pharmaceutical and health industries could make far more money treating patients in an epidemic than they could ever make trying to prevent one.

 

There is a large body of data demonstrating the safety of squalene. Flu vaccines containing MF59, a squalene-based adjuvant, have been used in Europe for 10 years, with 22,000,000 doses given; and no serious adverse events have occurred, only mild local reactions.  The vaccine does not raise the incidence or titers of anti-squalene antibodies. The World Health Organization (WHO) considers it safe. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html

You do realize that what you quoted is saying that Mercola is wrong, correct?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 10:54:36 AM
what about Vaccinations for kids and infants, do you guys want to discuss this or should it be a new thread?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
Maybe we should just start a thread "Traditional vs. Alternative medicine"?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
Maybe we should just start a thread "Traditional vs. Alternative medicine"?
why? is it called Traditional medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 23, 2013, 11:13:05 AM
Maybe we should just start a thread "Traditional vs. Witch Doctor Alternative medicine"?
FTFY  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 11:17:46 AM
sorry :-[ i ment: is it called alternative medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 23, 2013, 11:21:02 AM
sorry :-[ i ment: is it called alternative medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
NO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 11:22:00 AM
sorry :-[ i ment: is it called alternative medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
Traditional medicine has its ways of assessing risk vs. benefits. Disregarding these studies wold qualify as alternative.

FTFY  :)
I was thinking of writing "vs. quack medicine" didn't want to offend anyone. thanks for doing the dirty work for me :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 23, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
I was thinking of writing "vs. quack medicine" didn't want to offend anyone. thanks for doing the dirty work for me :P
"Witch Doctor" is better than "Quack". You dont want PETA after you.  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 11:40:21 AM
Traditional medicine has its ways of assessing risk vs. benefits. Disregarding these studies wold qualify as alternative.
so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them becous of the risks,then hes a quack ???
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 11:55:05 AM
so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them because of the risks,then hes a quack ???
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 23, 2013, 12:08:45 PM
You do realize that what you quoted is saying that Mercola is wrong, correct?

My understanding was that recently they discovered a possible link between narcolepsy in Europe and the adjuvant contained in the swine flu vax of 2009. (I didn't bring this article, and I'm sure there will be "studies" done to disprove it soon and label these accusers as quacks.) However, it was brought up on this thread as all american breathed a sigh of relief as they didn't include the junk in the US version.
There was a machlokes in 2009 as Mercola claimed to be part of a group that made a fuss about the adjuvant and was happy when at least that wasn't added in to the shot. One of the ppl who'd call Mercola a quack as she tries to disprove everything he says is Harriet Hall http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/swine-flu-vaccine-fearmongering/ and she said his claims about the adjuvants are false and that they should be put into the flu vax...
Looks to me that she's wrong... How did you see that he was wrong in what I quoted?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 23, 2013, 12:13:09 PM
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.

What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 12:16:48 PM
What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.
Then that usually falls into the general rule of:
Traditional medicine has its ways of assessing risk vs. benefits. Disregarding these studies wold qualify as alternative.

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 12:19:46 PM
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.
and thus the discussion (and autism is not the top of the potential complications) 
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 12:22:56 PM
Then that usually falls into the general rule of:
?? ???
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 23, 2013, 01:38:07 PM
Not necessarily. It depends what kind of risks you are worried about. If you don't give vaccines because you are worried about autism for example (a risk that has been debunked many times over) then you qualify for alternative. If you are worried about normal side effects then that is very normal. Every good doctor before giving a treatment will tell you what risks are known to the medical community to be associated with this treatment, what side effects etc. and the decision is up to the patient.

First of all, it wouldn't be traditional vs alternative. It would be modern medicine vs alternative/traditional medicine.

And second of all, a doctor is not practicing alternative medicine if they don't give vaccines because they're worried about autism. They may be crazy and/or stupid, but that doesn't make it alternative. More like malpractice or fearmongering maybe.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 01:51:58 PM
First of all, it wouldn't be traditional vs alternative. It would be modern medicine vs alternative/traditional medicine.

True (how many mistakes can I make in 1 post? :P )
And second of all, a doctor is not practicing alternative medicine if they don't give vaccines because they're worried about autism. They may be crazy and/or stupid, but that doesn't make it alternative. More like malpractice or fearmongering maybe.
You're right. NOT giving a treatment is not an alternative treatment, but the whole attitude of relying on sources not subject to the scientific method is what I meant.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 02:15:35 PM
You're right. NOT giving a treatment is not an alternative treatment, but the whole attitude of relying on sources not subject to the scientific method is what I meant.
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 02:28:00 PM
@Barryg

I'm not sure what to say... I'm going to assume you didn't read what you quoted from that article, otherwise...

This is a quote from Barryg trying to prove Mercola is correct that Squalene is bad. I will bold parts of the article to reinforce what the article is really proving.


Claim: Joseph Mercola writes about “Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret.” He has claimed that the vaccine adjuvant squalene is dangerous, that the Gulf War Syndrome was caused by the squalene in anthrax vaccines, that squalene is “good” or “bad depending on how it gets into your body: “Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.” And the only reason they put adjuvants in vaccines is to save money.

 

Fact: Squalene is found naturally in the human body. It is a precursor of cholesterol and other compounds necessary to human health. Squalene antibodies were found in Gulf War veterans; but the rate turned out to be no higher in those who had Gulf War Syndrome than in those who didn’t. Squalene antibodies were found at similar rates in people who had never been exposed to squalene in vaccines. The anthrax vaccine has been ruled out as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome. Anyway, it turns out there was no squalene in the anthrax vaccine!

 

American flu vaccines do not contain adjuvants, but maybe they should. Adjuvants enhance the body’s innate immune response to the antigens in vaccines, making vaccines more effective.   And they allow for broader cross-reactivity against viral strains not included in the vaccine.   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17931151?ordinalpos=33&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Mercola says adjuvants are added just to increase profits, but the pharmaceutical and health industries could make far more money treating patients in an epidemic than they could ever make trying to prevent one.
 

There is a large body of data demonstrating the safety of squalene. Flu vaccines containing MF59, a squalene-based adjuvant, have been used in Europe for 10 years, with 22,000,000 doses given; and no serious adverse events have occurred, only mild local reactions.  The vaccine does not raise the incidence or titers of anti-squalene antibodies. The World Health Organization (WHO) considers it safe. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html


Again, this is a quote from Barryg that he claimed explains that Mercola is correct... Color me dumbfounded
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on January 23, 2013, 02:35:03 PM
Again, this is a quote from Barryg that he claimed explains that Mercola is correct... Color me dumbfounded

He was saying (not very clearly) that the article about the link between the swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy was in line with Mercola's position in the argument he proceeded to quote. What he actually quoted was against Mercola's position, but the article he was responding to was for it.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 02:38:56 PM
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.

Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. In fact my guess is that your poor english writing hasn't hindered your ability to do your own research, which I'm sure you did.

"Weather" is fickle, the scientific method is not. People "don" a hat. You should "retract" your statements, people however have reactions.

so agen, if after looking into it someone decides to not take them becous of the risks,then hes a quack ???
sorry :-[ i ment: is it called alternative medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?
why? is it called Traditional medicine if someone dos'nt take a shot becouse of the risks of taking it?

It is very difficult to hold a serious conversation when you have to guess what they meant to say half of the time.

/end rant
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 02:46:22 PM
He was saying (not very clearly) that the article about the link between the swine flu vaccine and narcolepsy was in line with Mercola's position in the argument he proceeded to quote. What he actually quoted was against Mercola's position, but the article he was responding to was for it.

I understand now. Thank you for explaining. It was actually baffling me, trying to figure out what he was getting at.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 02:49:39 PM
Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. In fact my guess is that your poor english writing hasn't hindered your ability to do your own research, which I'm sure you did.
is that the punchline of your argument?? or dos this make you angry to discuss?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
are you an English teacher or do you really have an opinion on the matter
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 02:53:18 PM
is that the punchline of your argument??

No. The punchline would be this:

Nope no one at NIH or WHO has ever done any research into vaccines. Yes, all the lay people who claim that vaccines are bad clearly have done a much more thorough "scientific method" of testing than the scientists who are tasked by every government in the world as well as private researchers and independent doctors could have possibly done. 


The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery
one of the major arguments is weather  the vaccines go threw the correct "scientific methods",
has anyone don any research on this,it is a fact that people do have retractions ,miner to deadly, to the vaccines.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on January 23, 2013, 03:04:12 PM
To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 03:05:42 PM
are you an English teacher or do you really have an opinion on the matter

You are questioning the knowledge of thousands of individuals who have spent more time being educated than you have likely been alive. I am no english teacher but I would be dubious if I ever saw a research article written in the manner that you write.

No. The punchline would be this:

The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery

Couldn't have said it better.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 03:09:14 PM
To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.
That line of reasoning does make sense, and for that you have to see what the scientists/doctors THEMSELVES do. Something tells me they all vaccinate (CMIIW).

Another important safeguard you can get for yourself is to have a רופא ידיד who is friends with you PERSONALLY whom you can consult with.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 23, 2013, 03:12:16 PM
To those arguing that we should simply trust the scientists, consider this argument: Perhaps vaccines are good for society as a whole, but bad for the individuals.

That is, isn't it possible that on the whole, it is beneficial if lots of people get the vaccine, but, the people who are getting it would actually be personally better off if they were in the minority who did not get it and simply "free-ride" on the fact that most people are getting it. It could make sense mathematically. If so, the benefit of getting vaccines is not only the personal benefit, but also the societal benefit which take the form of a positive externality.

Now, we know there are risks, and there are benefits. The scientists tell us that the benefits outweigh the risks. But, perhaps they mean the societal benefits outweigh the societal risks; do we know that the personal benefits outweigh the personal risks?

Now note that of course the scientists would not want us to know if the personal risks outweigh the personal benefits. Their agenda is the good of society, and would want to maximize the social welfare. So, the fact that the CDC recommends it does not really prove the point.

I personally get vaccines, and will vaccinate my kids. But I'm always open to discussing things.

You're probably correct.
A quick analogy; is it "good" for the teenaged child when dad puts a cap on his spending? Of course not, however for the "good" of the family it is necessary in order to ensure that the family can afford to make their mortgage payments.

Yes, if a small number of individuals were able to forego the vaccine while everyone else received it, it would be to their personal benefit. However, nearly everything in society works this way. It would be fantastic if I could park wherever I wanted...unless everyone else did as well. As long as the risks are small and manageable and every individual is better off if everyone receives the vaccines rather than no one receiving them it is an easy choice in my mind and irresponsible to do anything else. In addition there are doctors not beholden to the govt. who research vaccines as well and are free to publish their findings (and they do).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 04:35:47 PM
but it is possible that they are "beholden" to there paychecks, they do work for $00,0000,000+ corporations
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 23, 2013, 05:00:37 PM
thank you fore your opinions,but did anyone do any research that would know, because it is a highly disputed topic,
and some of us are interested to know what people have found for ether side,thanks.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 23, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
but it is possible that they are "beholden" to there paychecks, they do work for $00,0000,000+ corporations
Valid point and I was going to mention  it in response to henches comment. It all boils down to human nature, if there are 2 treatments and 1 is more convenient/profitable/less-of-a-headache etc. for the doctor, the doctor would be inclined to give that one (mind you they would both have to be safe otherwise that doctor would be exposing himself to massive malpractice suites).
That is the reason a רופא ידיד is recommended -even if he doesn't specialize in this particular field. He would still have the know-how to differentiate between concerns and quackery/fear-mongering.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 23, 2013, 11:55:30 PM
I understand now. Thank you for explaining. It was actually baffling me, trying to figure out what he was getting at.

Sorry about being brief, you'd prob have to follow the parts of the thread chronologically, but I thought that was the norm in these forums. I figured it was better to be clear but concise, rather that repeat previous posts. Thanks to the skyguy for clearing up for me...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 24, 2013, 12:13:11 AM
thank you fore your opinions,but did anyone do any research that would know, because it is a highly disputed topic,
and some of us are interested to know what people have found for ether side,thanks.

I brought the sources from the other side.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.30
or to make it easier,

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
I'm not sold either way, but as of now optional shots like flu and chicken pox are out and reg schedule scares me a bit (I'm not so worried about my kids being exposed to hepB as an infant etc.) I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 24, 2013, 12:27:40 AM
No. The punchline would be this:

The amount of testing which must go into any FDA approved medicine (and which alternative medicine doesn't go through) makes claims such as the following sound like quackery

The problem with tests, and this is where it becomes fuzzy, is that it is very difficult to test for the long term effects and all medical tests are subject to the tester's speculation. Let's say someone is coughing a week after shot, is it because it's winter and he caught a cold or is it a side effect. Now, we're going to test 50,000 people and monitor their health for a month and judge what was caused by vaccine. The quacks also claim that the actual scientists that do the testing are heavily invested in the industry.

The main thing being discussed in this thread, unless we should change gears, is the flu vaccine. Conventional modern thought says, vaccine can't do harm, it can only help so even though it isn't 100% effective, I may as well take it (especially if it's free). Throughout the thread I am just pointing out the fear mongers have decent claims in this argument. It may be able to cause harm (still unknown) and I may be able to do other things to help avoid the flu, while making myself healthier at the same time!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 24, 2013, 08:32:55 AM
I brought the sources from the other side.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.30
or to make it easier,

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/31/flu-vaccination-epa-safety-limit-for-mercury.aspx
http://drtenpenny.com/the-truth-about-the-flu-shot/
I'm not sold either way, but as of now optional shots like flu and chicken pox are out and reg schedule scares me a bit (I'm not so worried about my kids being exposed to hepB as an infant etc.) I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...
wow, i dont see how one can argue without seeing this info first,a real eye opener ,did all of you go threw this info?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 24, 2013, 08:35:43 AM
I am also convinced that being healthy is more important than something like vaccines, for example, taking 1000-2000 IU per day of vitamin D3 in winter (wonder if any MD's would say not to) will help immune system, possibly more than flu shot...
Gosh! You're promoting vitamin D more aggressively than my Dr. promotes the flu shot, you sure you aren't being paid off by the vitamin companies? :P

לגופו של ענין It's true that promoting immune system health will make you healthier overall (and that is done by eating a healthy balanced diet, exercising, Vitamin C, Vitamin D ETC.). But for preventing the flu nothing is is good as the flu shot.

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were weakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 24, 2013, 08:42:04 AM

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were wakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...
-1
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 24, 2013, 10:33:14 AM
wow, i dont see how one can argue without seeing this info first,a real eye opener ,did all of you go threw this info?

Yes, and spoke to many dr's about it.

Gosh! You're promoting vitamin D more aggressively than my Dr. promotes the flu shot, you sure you aren't being paid off by the vitamin companies? :P

It's not just me, if you open eyes you'll see that even conventional sources http://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-d-deficiency and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

if reading whole wikipedia link is too long, then at least see this part from the middle of page...
Other
Vitamin D appears to have effects on immune function.[32] It has been postulated to play a role in influenza with lack of vitamin D synthesis during the winter as one explanation for high rates of influenza infection during the winter.[33]

 
Noone is gonna make a killing on selling d3, even the kosher ones. http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/stores_app/compare_items.asp?itemids=469,468
The reason I keep mentioning is that ppl may feel irresponsible (to their health) if not getting the flu shot, or one that got the vax may look down on ppl that didn't.


לגופו של ענין It's true that promoting immune system health will make you healthier overall (and that is done by eating a healthy balanced diet, exercising, Vitamin C, Vitamin D ETC.). But for preventing the flu nothing is is good as the flu shot.

משל למה הדבר דומה To a person who had surgery and the doctor gives him specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that were weakened by the surgery. Now this person will go ahead and say: Why should I do those exercises? They only strengthen a specific set of muscles, I may as well go on a bodybuilding regimen which would strengthen ALL my muscles...

I'd say the mashal should be surgery ---> doctor ----> exercise (and medication) vs. Exercise and preventative measures to not need the surgery in the first place. Did you ever ask your doctor if vitamin supplements are a good idea? I found that if ppl don't ask they may not stress the importance, but you'll be surprised to hear your doctor's answer. (I had similar experience with probiotics and fish oil.) Dr. didn't suggest, but said that they were highly recommended when asked.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 27, 2013, 01:44:49 AM
What if the main worry is future side effects which weren't tested yet? I don't believe it's likely or easy to test the effects of vaccines, let's say 25-50 years down the line.

Why in the world not? vaccines have been around since the 1950's? But in general this is a bogus claim that is often used by conspiracy theorists. We know what is in the vaccines and how they affect the body and how soon they are expelled form the body. That alone gives scientists the tools to asses whether any future effects could be had. (They can't)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 02:33:04 AM
i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!! 
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Saver2000 on January 27, 2013, 02:44:41 AM
i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!!
Oy vey, refuah shilaimah!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 03:01:48 AM
Oy vey, refuah shilaimah!

thanks.. this is crazy! i never heard of this before... i should be able to sue...  :)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: real-brisker on January 27, 2013, 03:15:02 AM
RS
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 27, 2013, 03:06:03 PM
i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!!

You do realize that unless you are allergic to eggs, the shot has absolutely nothing to do with your fever, right?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 27, 2013, 03:07:20 PM
You do realize that unless you are allergic to eggs, the shot has absolutely nothing to do with your fever, right?
-1 It says on the package may cause fever/aches for like 48 hours after.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 27, 2013, 03:10:05 PM
i just got the flu shot on thurs night and ive had fever, achs and pains since...then last night my throat is hurting a lot.... never again will i take one!!!!

i was told from my sons dr that my wife and i should take one - what a mistake!! 
Why did you choose the shot over the mist?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 03:35:59 PM
Why did you choose the shot over the mist?
im in israel....i wonder if they even know what that is here  :(
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 27, 2013, 03:37:06 PM
im in israel....i wonder if they even know what that is here  :(
Did you ask?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Jkhein on January 27, 2013, 03:42:10 PM
im in israel....i wonder if they even know what that is here  :(
they have it here too.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 04:56:20 PM
Did you ask?
No... Didnt even cross my mind.  :(  but dr said it has been much more common this yr that ppl have gotten the full blown flu after the shot.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 04:57:48 PM
they have it here too.
i went to he muchedet in arzie - the Russian lady barely wanted to give it to me. She was on her iPad looking at cats
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 27, 2013, 05:12:10 PM
No... Didnt even cross my mind.  :(  but dr said it has been much more common this yr that ppl have gotten the full blown flu after the shot.
It's impossible to get the flu from getting the shot.
You can get a fever and such, but not the flu.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: rots5 on January 27, 2013, 05:16:31 PM
It's impossible to get the flu from getting the shot.
You can get a fever and such, but not the flu.
this is what he told me. I happen to have just fever and the aches and pains. But he thinks i might have strep bec my immune system was low so it was more prone to get it
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: HelpMe on January 27, 2013, 10:09:35 PM
It's impossible to get the flu from getting the shot.
If you take FluMist (live virus) and then a day or two later get the flu how do you know it did not cause it?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 28, 2013, 12:56:23 AM
Why in the world not? vaccines have been around since the 1950's? But in general this is a bogus claim that is often used by conspiracy theorists. We know what is in the vaccines and how they affect the body and how soon they are expelled form the body. That alone gives scientists the tools to asses whether any future effects could be had. (They can't)

The flu vaccine as an annual recommendation by the CDC for all ages is fairly new, as far as I know. See http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/October-2012/Influenza-Deaths--The-Hype-vs--The-Evidence.aspx for a good timeline as well as some other useful info. The flumist is even newer!
As far as vaccines being around since 50's, I'm sure they've been around a lot longer than that, but for my age group it's more relevant to compare the last 30 years... http://www.drmomma.org/2011/01/cdc-mandatory-vaccine-schedule-1983-vs.html
The long term effects of the increase in vaccinations (and the annual flu shot) won't be known for a long time.
Are you sure that you know what is in the vaccines and what they may do to a person? (I'm not talking about MD's vs quack conspiracy theorists, I was wondering if you ever looked into what is in vaccines, or was it a generic we?)
Do they have studies on how soon they are expelled from the body?
Title: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: btab on January 28, 2013, 01:31:45 AM
I got the shot for free :)

I iy"H try to get it every year
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 28, 2013, 03:05:17 AM
It's impossible to get the flu from getting the shot.
You can get a fever and such, but not the flu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rbMCTB97qHc
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
doc. oz's kids didnt get it [ Invalid YouTube link ] , he said it by 5:00
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on January 28, 2013, 03:19:05 AM
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
lol, if he'd gotten cancer 2 days later they'd also use it as proof. I hope you realize how laughable that report is.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: real-brisker on January 28, 2013, 04:05:27 AM
Rots - I didn't get the shot, and I an feeling awful yesterday and today. :(
Title: Re: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: yuneeq on January 28, 2013, 04:06:30 AM
Rots - I didn't get the shot, and I an feeling awful yesterday and today. :(

+1 same by me :-[
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: real-brisker on January 28, 2013, 04:08:45 AM
I went to terem and b"h they didn't find anything wrong.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: glasses dude on January 28, 2013, 06:34:30 PM
i got the flu shot and if i dont have the flu then uts flu like symptoms :(
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: btab on January 28, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
Some hospitals require employees to get shots and even provide it for them. A hospital is there to TRY and make money, so I do not see the point in spending money on vaccines if they do not truly find them effective. I think the cost provides them with the benefit that they know it will keep their patients from acquiring it from the staff (which they will have to pay out of pocket because it is hospital acquired).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 28, 2013, 07:05:13 PM
+1. Same applies to insurance companies.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 29, 2013, 02:52:47 AM
Some hospitals require employees to get shots and even provide it for them. A hospital is there to TRY and make money, so I do not see the point in spending money on vaccines if they do not truly find them effective. I think the cost provides them with the benefit that they know it will keep their patients from acquiring it from the staff (which they will have to pay out of pocket because it is hospital acquired).
actually hospitals get funding for giving them(and the staff are usually required to get them on their own accord),
no one said that they don't work, only that they have adverse retractions, and even that the risks out-way the benefits,
and most of all they don't have an opinion, rather they go by the book!
..........DO YOUR RESEARCH................  :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: LeeW on January 29, 2013, 09:46:17 PM
actually hospitals get funding for giving them(and the staff are usually required to get them on their own accord),
no one said that they don't work, only that they have adverse retractions, and even that the risks out-way the benefits,
and most of all they don't have an opinion, rather they go by the book!
..........DO YOUR RESEARCH................  :P

How is it possible to do research when people like you discredit all reputable sources as not being truthful and champion every conspiracy nut/ activist out there?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 29, 2013, 09:48:15 PM
Some hospitals require employees to get shots and even provide it for them. A hospital is there to TRY and make money, so I do not see the point in spending money on vaccines if they do not truly find them effective. I think the cost provides them with the benefit that they know it will keep their patients from acquiring it from the staff (which they will have to pay out of pocket because it is hospital acquired).
Reminds me of this xkcd:
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_economic_argument.png)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: AsherO on January 29, 2013, 10:08:12 PM
Reminds me of this xkcd:
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_economic_argument.png)

Like!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 30, 2013, 01:33:48 AM
actually hospitals get funding for giving them(and the staff are usually required to get them on their own accord),
no one said that they don't work, only that they have adverse retractions, and even that the risks out-way the benefits,
and most of all they don't have an opinion, rather they go by the book!
..........DO YOUR RESEARCH................  :P
How is it possible to do research when people like you discredit all reputable sources as not being truthful and champion every conspiracy nut/ activist out there?


No-one said that the research would be easy. On the one side we have conspiracy nut activist quacks, and on the other side we have media, hype, $, and ppl that fire others, yes, experienced nurses have been fired!  If the research was so easy, this thread wouldn't be 18 pages long, so far. The first side that I mentioned, as far as I can tell, doesn't just bash sight unseen, rather they usually quote medical studies and explain all angles. Ironically, I found that the mainstream media and the MD's see to discredit the others and just put them down and bash them. (I may have the wrong sources, but please point me in the right direction if you feel this is the case.)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on January 30, 2013, 01:37:21 AM
If the research was so easy, this thread wouldn't be 18 pages long, so far.
That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 30, 2013, 07:16:38 AM
How is it possible to do research when people like you discredit all reputable sources as not being truthful and champion every conspiracy nut/ activist out there?
when did i do that ??? ??? and even you can have your own opinion ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 30, 2013, 07:55:36 AM
That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.
you never did other research or asked a 2nd opinion?? you must love your garden  :) ,
i am sure if you did look into it you will find  things  that aren't being done to your benefit and can be improved ,
and even if your fine with it, some people have higher standards when it comes to medical advice than landscaping advice,
and do you know that they are making "big money"?and on what?
and bthw what do you think the "quacks" are Quacking about anyway, do you know there main message is? (hint: not that vaccines don't work)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 30, 2013, 08:18:09 AM
you never did other research or asked a 2nd opinion?? you must love your garden  :) ,
i am sure if you did look into it you will find  things  that aren't being done to your benefit and can be improved ,
and even if your fine with it, some people have higher standards when it comes to medical advice than landscaping advice,
I'm all for second opinions, as long as you get them from another gardener, not from a shoemaker...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 30, 2013, 08:26:41 AM
I'm all for second opinions, as long as you get them from another gardener, not from a shoemaker...
read the next line  and also the hole thing ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 30, 2013, 08:42:44 AM
read the next line  and also the hole thing ;)
Both have been discussed ad nauseam...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on January 30, 2013, 08:45:04 AM
Both have been discussed ad nauseam...
??
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on January 30, 2013, 09:20:36 AM
That is the dumbest thing you've said yet.
There are also hundreds of pages from conspiracy theorists on 09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc.  That doesn't mean the quacks won't argue otherwise until they're blue in the face.

I trust my accountant to give me tax advice, I trust my gardener to give me landscaping advice, and I trust my Doctor to give me medical advice.  I don't pretend to know better by bringing "proofs" from a tiny handful of big money making quacks online over tens of thousands of highly educated doctors.  You can find proofs for anything online, it doesn't mean they right or safe.

If you hear something from another source you can always ask your trusted professional. I have no experience in landscaping and can't comment on it. I have asked Dr.'s many questions, for example, should I take fish oil? The doctor never advised, but agreed that it was a good idea. Similarly, I have asked my accountant (not in an attacking way) "What if we try this?" or "Doesn't this also qualify?" Then he looked into it and decided. Many times he agreed, and there were times that I wasn't fully satisfied with the answer as well.
With the flu vaccine specifically, we can pretty much guess what the doctor would advise (although, you never know, it's not 100% of MD's vs. 0%), but if (not in an attacking way) I ask and am not satisfied with answer, then I know that it's not so simple. The conspiracy theory part of it isn't the focus, and to me it is somewhat irrelevant as  09/11, Newtown, the lunar landing, etc, etc. won't necessarily have an effect on the way that I live my daily life. Health, on the other hand, is important. The question here is the pros and cons of getting a shot and that's what the discussion with the doctor is for.
I would ask, What percentage of flu's will the vaccine help with? Is the flu dangerous for me/my kids at our age and health? Are there any reasons that I shouldn't get vaccine?  Is there mercury in it? Are there any side effects or long term risks that I should know about? Is there anything else that I can do to protect from flu (with or without vaccine)? (It is difficult to ask the above Q's without attacking doctor, one would have to be creative.)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on February 20, 2013, 03:59:16 PM
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/307357_559432864074527_1002125294_n.png)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 20, 2013, 04:11:02 PM
Correlation doesn't imply causation. could just be because people started taking their vitamin D ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on February 20, 2013, 06:22:34 PM
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/307357_559432864074527_1002125294_n.png)
whats there time table and dates?
 check this out: http://drtenpenny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Decline-of-infectious-disease.pdf
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on February 21, 2013, 01:48:39 AM
Surprised to see so many zero's and low numbers. 0 reported cases would include the high percentage of the unvaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2013/t0129_adult_vacc_rates.html
Again, I thought the discussion was focused on the flu vax and one of the reasons it makes for such a 2 sided Machlokes is that everyone knows the flu vax isn't anywhere close to 100% effective since they try to predict which strain of the disease will be around and ppl (more than zero, since I know of five this year) get the vaccine and still catch the flu.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on February 21, 2013, 01:52:04 AM
Correlation doesn't imply causation. could just be because people started taking their vitamin D ;)
Would you like to write an article about how vitamin D helps reduce polio, diphtheria and smallpox cases? Will be hard to disprove and it may make you famous!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on February 21, 2013, 07:35:53 AM
Surprised to see so many zero's and low numbers. 0 reported cases would include the high percentage of the unvaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2013/t0129_adult_vacc_rates.html
Again, I thought the discussion was focused on the flu vax and one of the reasons it makes for such a 2 sided Machlokes is that everyone knows the flu vax isn't anywhere close to 100% effective since they try to predict which strain of the disease will be around and ppl (more than zero, since I know of five this year) get the vaccine and still catch the flu.
+1
http://drtenpenny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Flu-shots-dont-protect-table.pdf
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 21, 2013, 08:01:47 AM
Barryg, it seems that you have some honest concerns about the flu vaccine. I understand that and respect your right to be thorough in understanding what goes into your body.

az, below is a chart of pertussis cases in Sweden between the years 1992 and 1998.

(http://www.eurosurveillance.org/images/dynamic/em/v04n12/0412-022-01.gif)

Sweden did not give the pertussis vaccine during the 1992-1995 years. Due to the epidemic they began giving it again in 1996. By 1998 one can easily see the effectiveness of the vaccine. You can make charts say whatever you want them to say, the question is who are you going to believe the entire scientific community or a small number of (generally medically uneducated) conspiracy theorists?
For the entire scientific article (not random graphs with little or no explanation) http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=84

Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 21, 2013, 08:09:09 AM
@ az @ Barryg Do you guys use talk on cell phones? Eat food cooked in pots and pans made of titanium, aluminum, silicone finish, anti stick (anything other than wrought iron)?

Do you guys eat processed foods? Things with trans fat? Saturated fat? Food coloring? Preservatives?

The amount of "bad stuff" going into your body due to vaccines is so small and the good that is caused is so great comparatively that if the answer to any of the aforementioned questions is yes, this conversation should effectively be over.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 21, 2013, 08:16:46 AM
Would you like to write an article about how vitamin D helps reduce polio, diphtheria and smallpox cases? Will be hard to disprove and it may make you famous!
No I'd rather write an article on the effectiveness of Homeopathic remedies and healing crystals, those are even harder to disprove and evidently make you quite rich and famous....
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on February 21, 2013, 08:26:52 AM
No I'd rather write an article on the effectiveness of Homeopathic remedies and healing crystals, those are even harder to disprove and evidently make you quite rich and famous....
And I hear global warming is better yet :P ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 21, 2013, 08:31:14 AM
And I hear global warming is better yet :P ;)
pro or against? and FTR it's climate change...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jj1000 on February 21, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
pro or against? and FTR it's climate change...
The market that was created because of this invention. Its a good way to make money very hard to prove wrong... catch the joke yet?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 21, 2013, 08:39:32 AM
The market that was created because of this invention. Its a good way to make money very hard to prove wrong... catch the joke yet?
Yeah I caught it in the beginning was just checking which side of the joke you were on :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on February 21, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
YankyDoodle: you guys are missing the boat, no one said that they never work,
if you were paying attention i was only commenting on Dan's cart that there wasnt a timetable and i was showing one with that showed that there was a decline before the vaccines cam out (with sources)

@ az @ Barryg Do you guys use talk on cell phones? Eat food cooked in pots and pans made of titanium, aluminum, silicone finish, anti stick (anything other than wrought iron)?

Do you guys eat processed foods? Things with trans fat? Saturated fat? Food coloring? Preservatives?

The amount of "bad stuff" going into your body due to vaccines is so small and the good that is caused is so great comparatively that if the answer to any of the aforementioned questions is yes, this conversation should effectively be over.
-1 direct injection into the blood stream has more of a direct affect, that's why they inject and why they direct inject with aluminium (the aluminum is there to agitate the immune system), BUT going threw the digestive system the absorption is worlds less.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on February 21, 2013, 08:52:52 AM
No I'd rather write an article on the effectiveness of Homeopathic remedies and healing crystals, those are even harder to disprove and evidently make you quite rich and famous....
what dose this have to do with vitamin D ???
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 21, 2013, 10:49:38 AM
YankyDoodle: you guys are missing the boat, no one said that they never work,
if you were paying attention i was only commenting on Dan's cart that there wasnt a timetable and i was showing one with that showed that there was a decline before the vaccines cam out (with sources)
-1 direct injection into the blood stream has more of a direct affect, that's why they inject and why they direct inject with aluminium (the aluminum is there to agitate the immune system), BUT going threw the digestive system the absorption is worlds less.

By implication you said that it was not the vaccines that accomplished the near eradication of many lethal diseases rather it was a natural progression as time went on...That is patently false. An example can be found in the chart I showed you about Pertussis.

How much less gets absorbed through the digestive system? You seem to be very knowledgable about these things. Where in the digestive system do carcinogens get absorbed? I am sure that you have researched all of these since you seem like someone very concerned about your health and what goes into your body.

You never answered my question do you use cell phones? Those have only been out for about 20 years. Do you know the long term impact that they have on health? If I recall you were very concerned about flu shots because the long term impact is somewhat unknown.

You have a vandetta against vaccines that is irresponsible. You have been fed a tale of misinformation and skewed data. For someone who claims that we should all do our own research and question the entire medical establishment you seem to do very little thinking for yourself.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: az on February 21, 2013, 01:10:25 PM
By implication you said that it was not the vaccines that accomplished the near eradication of many lethal diseases rather it was a natural progression as time went on...That is patently false. An example can be found in the chart I showed you about Pertussis.

How much less gets absorbed through the digestive system? You seem to be very knowledgable about these things. Where in the digestive system do carcinogens get absorbed? I am sure that you have researched all of these since you seem like someone very concerned about your health and what goes into your body.

You never answered my question do you use cell phones? Those have only been out for about 20 years. Do you know the long term impact that they have on health? If I recall you were very concerned about flu shots because the long term impact is somewhat unknown.

You have a vandetta against vaccines that is irresponsible. You have been fed a tale of misinformation and skewed data. For someone who claims that we should all do our own research and question the entire medical establishment you seem to do very little thinking for yourself.
ok i will humer you  and answer your 4 problems, but i'm going to do it by helping you figure it out:

1: your implication deciphering skills are a little rusty, look at the charts i posted and tell me how the drastic declines happened before the vaccines (A:cleaner lifestyles, B:the introduction of sterilization, C: antibiotics and more medical knowledge, D:all of the above, E:all of the above + more not mention). saying that vaccines are the major causes of the decline is naive.

2:do you know?( not that it has to do with the conversation), and please tell me what carcinogens are you talking about, i don't recall ??? . i have actually discussed this stuff with a RN, and in general i am careful with what goes into my body, you should try it ;) ,what knowledge do you claim to have?

3:ha*!! next

4:i can answer this for my self but have you asked yourself this same question? my guess is not  ;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on February 26, 2013, 01:29:27 AM
By implication you said that it was not the vaccines that accomplished the near eradication of many lethal diseases rather it was a natural progression as time went on...That is patently false. An example can be found in the chart I showed you about Pertussis.

How much less gets absorbed through the digestive system? You seem to be very knowledgable about these things. Where in the digestive system do carcinogens get absorbed? I am sure that you have researched all of these since you seem like someone very concerned about your health and what goes into your body.

You never answered my question do you use cell phones? Those have only been out for about 20 years. Do you know the long term impact that they have on health? If I recall you were very concerned about flu shots because the long term impact is somewhat unknown.

You have a vandetta against vaccines that is irresponsible. You have been fed a tale of misinformation and skewed data. For someone who claims that we should all do our own research and question the entire medical establishment you seem to do very little thinking for yourself.
@ az @ Barryg Do you guys use talk on cell phones? Eat food cooked in pots and pans made of titanium, aluminum, silicone finish, anti stick (anything other than wrought iron)?

Do you guys eat processed foods? Things with trans fat? Saturated fat? Food coloring? Preservatives?

The amount of "bad stuff" going into your body due to vaccines is so small and the good that is caused is so great comparatively that if the answer to any of the aforementioned questions is yes, this conversation should effectively be over.

Sorry that I disappeared for a few days, regarding this forum (I devoted all extra time to preparing for Megilla reading... I don't believe that anyone answered this post yet...
Surprised to see so many zero's and low numbers. 0 reported cases would include the high percentage of the unvaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2013/t0129_adult_vacc_rates.html
Again, I thought the discussion was focused on the flu vax and one of the reasons it makes for such a 2 sided Machlokes is that everyone knows the flu vax isn't anywhere close to 100% effective since they try to predict which strain of the disease will be around and ppl (more than zero, since I know of five this year) get the vaccine and still catch the flu.

Also, my biggest three issues with vaccines currently are: The current schedule, the flu vax and the chicken pox vax.
As most of the biggest and most dangerous diseases have been eradicated, what's the big rush? If the amount of bad stuff is small, why compound it and give Hep shots to babies that aren't at risk for it, or give 3 shots at once to a kid under 2?
As far as cell phones, I use one (as I may stand in front of a microwave, but that doesn't mean that I would expose my infant to prolonged cell phone usage.

Re: food cooked in pots and pans made of titanium, aluminum, silicone finish, anti stick, eating processed foods? Saturated fat? Food coloring? Preservatives?

Guilty of all of the above, also add, amount of sleep, cooking with oil, milk, and others. But why should the conversation be over? That would be the similar to telling an overweight person who cut down on gallons of soda a day, to give up, since there was a whole list of other stuff that he didn't change yet...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: henche on February 26, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
http://www.france24.com/en/20130227-study-boosts-link-between-flu-vaccine-sleep-disorder-0
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 22, 2013, 06:24:01 PM
Vaccine Fear Mongering Threatens Real Vaccine Science (http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/03/21/wakefield-driven-vaccine-false-alarm-threatens-real-vaccine-science/)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 16, 2013, 01:34:57 PM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23388-measles-stalks-europe-after-drop-in-vaccination.html
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 10, 2013, 11:58:55 PM
I heard this on Bill Cunningham show tonight...
I have a cold... I got a flu shot 10 days ago, and since then I've had flu like symptoms... This is the second flu shot I've had in my life, both times I was sick... This will be my last flu shot...
Just thought it was interesting.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 12:02:40 AM
Blah blah blah.

Mimi, Rafi, and I all had the flu nasal mist.  Zero symptoms.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 12:09:06 AM
Blah blah blah.

Mimi, Rafi, and I all had the flu nasal mist.  Zero symptoms.
He didn't say nasal...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 11, 2013, 12:16:54 AM
It is only because of vaccines that these diseases (measles, polio, pertussis etc) are so rare in the U.S.   "Herd immunity" is what is protects those who do not vaccinate themselves or their children.  So those who refuse vaccination rely on others to step up and get vaccinated, while they coast along and reap the benefit because the disease becomes so rare in a community.  Some would accuse those people as selfish and self-centered, rather than being part of the solution for an important public health matter.  (Not that different than people who refuse to donate blood just because the needle hurts a little, but G-d forbid they need blood they will gladly accept an IV needle).  Look at the experience in England when people believed the false claims about the MMR vaccine by Wakefield- vaccination rates plummeted, measles cases rose dramatically and people DIED.  Vaccines are among the greatest discoveries and advances in health care.  THEY SAVE LIVES !!!  I personally have seen several unvaccinated people near death from the flu.  I never understand those uninformed people who refuse to believe sound scientific data, preferring to make a decision based on rumor or believing in a government or industry "conspiracy".  We Jews are among the most educated of peoples, yet this anti-vaccine silliness is far too common in our communities.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 12:22:47 AM
And that's true even though Jews were influential in creating vaccines :P
Pathetic.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 11, 2013, 12:31:09 AM
35% vaccination rate among DDF'ers.  That's embarrassing.  Dan,  it should have been mandatory in order to attend last night's event.  All those unvaccinated people in one room for 3 hours!  I am glad you are vaccinated.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 01:35:37 AM
I never understand those uninformed people who refuse to believe sound scientific data, preferring to make a decision based on rumor or believing in a government or industry "conspiracy".  We Jews are among the most educated of peoples, yet this anti-vaccine silliness is far too common in our communities.
Maybe it's not silliness and the educated ppl know more than you think...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 01:37:08 AM
35% vaccination rate among DDF'ers.  That's embarrassing.  Dan,  it should have been mandatory in order to attend last night's event.  All those unvaccinated people in one room for 3 hours!  I am glad you are vaccinated.
The poll was last year, I am sure that if we re-polled the mist #s will go up this year...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Galitzyaner on November 11, 2013, 02:05:15 AM
Prominently displayed right in front of the cash registers, in Eichlers of BP.

This is what frum moms are reading...

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/11/2y2upepa.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/11/ehusyny5.jpg)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 03:39:53 AM
Prominently displayed right in front of the cash registers, in Eichlers of BP.

This is what frum moms are reading...

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/11/2y2upepa.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/11/ehusyny5.jpg)
Is it wrong to want to make an informed decision about vaccines?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 07:31:38 AM
Is it wrong to want to make an informed decision about vaccines?
I didn't read the book, but dis it make for an informed it a misinformed decision?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 07:43:28 AM
"Dr. Eisenstein, MD, JD, MPH is the Founder and Medical Director of Homefirst Health Services. Homefirst provides a full range of family healthcare services in Chicago, with four medical centers. Since 1973, Homefirst doctors have delivered over 15,000 babies at home -- most of whom have never been vaccinated -- serving more than 75,000 parents, grandparents, and children. "
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Chaikel on November 11, 2013, 07:47:54 AM
It's just natural selection
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
"Dr. Eisenstein, MD, JD, MPH is the Founder and Medical Director of Homefirst Health Services. Homefirst provides a full range of family healthcare services in Chicago, with four medical centers. Since 1973, Homefirst doctors have delivered over 15,000 babies at home -- most of whom have never been vaccinated -- serving more than 75,000 parents, grandparents, and children. "
...well he's an M.D.so MUST know what he's talking about...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: mek on November 11, 2013, 08:06:08 AM
All it takes is for that parent to see their kid with any preventable disease (chickenpox, measeles, e.t.c) and they will have themselves to blame for not vaccinating. To see your kid in pain knowing you could have prevented it......
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 08:18:09 AM
All it takes is for that parent to see their kid with any preventable disease (chickenpox, measeles, e.t.c) and they will have themselves to blame for not vaccinating. To see your kid in pain knowing you could have prevented it......
Never mind the numerous horrific mumps outbreaks in jewish communities which may leave many couples childless R"L.  With noone to blame but their vile parents.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 08:20:17 AM
It's just natural selection
Unfortunately the way herd immunization works relies on everyone getting immunized.  Vaccines aren't perfect for everyone so you also need the herd to stamp it out.
Otherwise we're all vulnerable.

Problem is we're too far removed from the The 1918 Flu Pandemic.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Chaikel on November 11, 2013, 08:50:32 AM
Unfortunately the way herd immunization works relies on everyone getting immunized.  Vaccines aren't perfect for everyone so you also need the herd to stamp it out.
Otherwise we're all vulnerable.

Problem is we're too far removed from the The 1918 Flu Pandemic.
So we should just pass a law forcing all those who don't want to vaccinate into quarantine together. After a few years, problem solves itself...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 09:13:28 AM
So we should just pass a law forcing all those who don't want to vaccinate into quarantine together. After a few years, problem solves itself...
I won't say what that sounded like...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Chaikel on November 11, 2013, 09:18:37 AM
I won't say what that sounded like...
I hear. The difference is these people are rodfim and it's mutar lharog biyadayim. And I'm not even saying do that, just that let their own stupidity solve their problem
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: CountValentine on November 11, 2013, 09:20:57 AM
If someone never gets the flu should they still get vaccinated?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 09:27:11 AM
If you 'never get the flu' it only means that your body isn't affected by it, but you can still carry and spread it to others.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 11, 2013, 09:30:49 AM
If someone never gets the flu should they still get vaccinated?
there is no reason to assume that you are immune.
If you have very little contact with other human beings and kids we'll give you a pass.;)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: CountValentine on November 11, 2013, 09:35:10 AM
there is no reason to assume that you are immune.
If you have very little contact with other human beings and kids we'll give you a pass.;)
I am not immune. I am the only one in my family that does not get the shot. If I get the shot and then get the flu you know I will have to blame the shot.  :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 10:49:24 AM
Don't really understand why anyone gets the shot over the mist.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 11:05:21 AM
Don't really understand why anyone gets the shot over the mist.
They must be really old or young...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 11:09:54 AM
They must be really old or young...
My 2 year old got the mist.
Just how young are we talking :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 11, 2013, 11:18:35 AM
Don't really understand why anyone gets the shot over the mist.
They dont give it to pregnant women and babies because it is a live virus.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 11, 2013, 11:20:32 AM
I am not immune. I am the only one in my family that does not get the shot. If I get the shot and then get the flu you know I will have to blame the shot.  :P
Per my pediatrician there is a very small chance of getting a very weak version of the flu from the spray vaccine.
Still worth the risk imho
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: CountValentine on November 11, 2013, 11:25:51 AM
Don't really understand why anyone gets the shot over the mist.
Because the shot hurts so it must be doing some good?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 11:51:18 AM
I didn't read the book, but dis it make for an informed it a misinformed decision?
Neither have I but the last time I checked, making an informed decision included researching both sides of the argument.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 11:52:18 AM
Neither have I but the last time I checked, making an informed decision included researching both sides of the argument.
Hence reading ONE book will NEVER lead you to an informed decision...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:00:24 PM
Never mind the numerous horrific mumps outbreaks in jewish communities which may leave many couples childless R"L.  With noone to blame but their vile parents.
Do you have a source for that?
Because according to this (http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01) chart of the outbreak by the New England Journal of Medicine, there is not one report of sterility. Furthermore, the infection rate, outcomes, and complication rate do not differ at all between the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
Vile parents and all that....
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Hence reading ONE book will NEVER lead you to an informed decision...
100% true.
Does this mean you have inside knowledge of the reading habits of Jewish women?
How do you know they are only reading this one book?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 12:03:08 PM
Do you have a source for that?
Because according to this (http://travelbloggerbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/dma-way-6.jpg) chart of the outbreak by the New England Journal of Medicine, there is not one report of sterility. Furthermore, the infection rate, outcomes, and complication rate do not differ at all between the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
Vile parents and all that....
That's some chart you've got there :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: CountValentine on November 11, 2013, 12:05:01 PM
Because according to this (http://travelbloggerbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/dma-way-6.jpg) chart of the outbreak by the New England Journal of Medicine, there is not one report of sterility.
That chart is a joke. You have anything better?  ;)

Which one is you?  :P
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:05:43 PM
That's some chart you've got there :D
Lol! :D
Coffee hasn't kicked in yet. ;)
This one. http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01 (http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
That chart is a joke. You have anything better?  ;)

Which one is you?  :P
I plan on doing that next time I pick up a specific friend form the airport. ;D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 12:11:02 PM
I knew this discussion was lingering just around the corner. It mixes up two very different (and only tangentially related) topics; Flu vaccine and other vaccines. I officially hate this thread, it honestly makes me worry about our future as a thinking society.

This one. http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01 (http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056%2FNEJMoa1202865&iid=t01)

I don't see anything.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
I knew this discussion was lingering just around the corner. It mixes up two very different (and only tangentially related) topics; Flu vaccine and other vaccines. I officially hate this thread, it honestly makes me worry about our future as a thinking society.


How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?

Quote
I don't see anything.
Are you on mobile? Looks like a flash based page.
ETA. Here is a screenshot.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 12:15:05 PM
As long as we're throwing out things from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/

And from your chart it does look like Orchitis is higher among the non-vaccinated.

Also from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2079103/pdf/brmedj03618-0041.pdf
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 12:17:40 PM

Does this mean you have inside knowledge of the reading habits of Jewish women?
How do you know they are only reading this one book?
In my close circle of family and friends there are quite a few Jewish women who don't mind sharing their reading habits with me. 1 trend I've noticed is that all those who advocate being "open minded" and "thinking for yourself" based on such books have little tolerance for the opinion that doctors may actually know what they are talking about...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:31:21 PM
As long as we're throwing out things from Google:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/
I'm not throwing out random Google searches. I posted a chart showing the data from the outbreak you referenced and asking you to back up your claim.

Quote
And from your chart it does look like Orchitis is higher among the non-vaccinated.
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 12:32:44 PM
ETA. Here is a screenshot.

You use that chart to say that no one became infertile as a result. The chart makes no mention on fertility checks. One possible reason why it does not discuss fertility issues is because many of these studies were done on Orthodox Jewish boys who would be hesitant to participate in such a study.

To paraphrase this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/:
Impairment of fertility is estimated to occur in about 13% of patients, while 30%-87% of patients with bilateral mumps orchitis experience infertility. 10%-30% of orchitis is bilateral.
From your chart it seems that about 11.3% of unvaccinated patients had orchitis.

This adds up to (on the high end) .87*.3*.113 = 3% of unvaccinated people afflicted with mumps are infertile (with a much larger # being subfertile and requiring IVF for the hope of having children).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 12:34:37 PM
I'm not throwing out random Google searches. I posted a chart showing the data from the outbreak you referenced and asking you to back up your claim.
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.
I don't pretend to know how to read what you posted, but it seems like the testicle issues occur in 11% of non-vaccinated versus 3% of vaccinated.

Did you read the links I posted?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 12:35:52 PM
I don't know if a difference of 2 percentage points is statistically relevant but if you want to bring that up, don't neglect to mention that the incidence of meningitis, oophoritis, pancreatitis, deafness, mastitis, Bell's palsy, and encephalitis are all higher by the vaccinated.

Not sure where you see 2% difference. Regardless you are not reading that chart correctly. If you want to make comparisons between different groups you must use the 95% CI. The difference in orchitis is a statistically significant difference while all the others you mentioned are not (and therefore likely anomalies).
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 12:36:51 PM
In my close circle of family and friends there are quite a few Jewish women who don't mind sharing their reading habits with me. 1 trend I've noticed is that all those who advocate being "open minded" and "thinking for yourself" based on such books have little tolerance for the opinion that doctors may actually know what they are talking about...
I don't know how you know that their desire to be "open minded" and "thinking for themselves" comes solely from these books but the fact that these people who consider themselves to be open minded and thinking are singing the same tune should at least make you think.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 12:38:28 PM
How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?

Flu vaccines change every year and therefore do not have the luxury of being tested by many scientists over a matter of years. Furthermore The other vaccines have a higher success rate, and treat a more deadly disease (except possibly in the very young and elderly).

I still believe it is important to get the flu vaccine if you have any contact with at-risk groups but I can see a stronger argument being made to avoid it as opposed to the others.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 12:38:58 PM
How are flu vaccines that much different than other vaccines?
Flu vaccines are known to be a guess in the strain and, therefore, there is less of a chance that the vaccine helps. They are also usually made quicker and have less testing done before available to the public.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 11, 2013, 12:48:02 PM
Flu vaccines change every year and therefore do not have the luxury of being tested by many scientists over a matter of years. Furthermore The other vaccines have a higher success rate, and treat a more deadly disease (except possibly in the very young and elderly).

I still believe it is important to get the flu vaccine if you have any contact with at-risk groups but I can see a stronger argument being made to avoid it as opposed to the others.
+1, I know of at least one pediatrician that does selective vaccination. She heavily researches both the vaccine and the disease it's designed to protect against and makes a determination as to whether it's necessary. That's not to say specifically that she doesn't recommend the flu vaccine (I don't actually know), but the point is that people lump everything together when each vaccine may be at least a slightly different discussion.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 12:50:25 PM
I don't know how you know that their desire to be "open minded" and "thinking for themselves" comes solely from these books but the fact that these people who consider themselves to be open minded and thinking are singing the same tune should at least make you think.
I did not say it comes from reading these books. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 12:53:34 PM
+1, I know of at least one pediatrician that does selective vaccination. She heavily researches both the vaccine and the disease it's designed to protect against and makes a determination as to whether it's necessary. That's not to say specifically that she doesn't recommend the flu vaccine (I don't actually know), but the point is that people lump everything together when each vaccine may be at least a slightly different discussion.

Yes but MMR, Hepatitis B, tdap and Polio amongst others are crucial life-saving shots that have been tested long enough and shown enough worth to be an accepted part of society today. Ppl who argue against it (yet might even take it themselves) just leave the ignorant masses confused and a danger to themselves and others.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: elikay on November 11, 2013, 01:07:27 PM
The flu shot has a terrible track record compared to other vaccinations.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 01:12:03 PM
You use that chart to say that no one became infertile as a result. The chart makes no mention on fertility checks. One possible reason why it does not discuss fertility issues is because many of these studies were done on Orthodox Jewish boys who would be hesitant to participate in such a study.

To paraphrase this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633545/:
Impairment of fertility is estimated to occur in about 13% of patients, while 30%-87% of patients with bilateral mumps orchitis experience infertility. 10%-30% of orchitis is bilateral.
From your chart it seems that about 11.3% of unvaccinated patients had orchitis.

This adds up to (on the high end) .87*.3*.113 = 3% of unvaccinated people afflicted with mumps are infertile (with a much larger # being subfertile and requiring IVF for the hope of having children).
Not sure where you see 2% difference. Regardless you are not reading that chart correctly. If you want to make comparisons between different groups you must use the 95% CI. The difference in orchitis is a statistically significant difference while all the others you mentioned are not (and therefore likely anomalies).
Redo your math using the CI.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 01:19:15 PM
I don't pretend to know how to read what you posted, but it seems like the testicle issues occur in 11% of non-vaccinated versus 3% of vaccinated.

Did you read the links I posted?
Yes. What point are you trying to prove with the 2nd one?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 11, 2013, 01:22:44 PM
Yes. What point are you trying to prove with the 2nd one?
No idea didn't even read it :D
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 01:23:42 PM
Flu vaccines change every year and therefore do not have the luxury of being tested by many scientists over a matter of years. Furthermore The other vaccines have a higher success rate, and treat a more deadly disease (except possibly in the very young and elderly).

I still believe it is important to get the flu vaccine if you have any contact with at-risk groups but I can see a stronger argument being made to avoid it as opposed to the others.
:o
Yes but MMR, Hepatitis B, tdap and Polio amongst others are crucial life-saving shots that have been tested long enough and shown enough worth to be an accepted part of society today. Ppl who argue against it (yet might even take it themselves) just leave the ignorant masses confused and a danger to themselves and others.
You really need to do some more research if you believe that. Start with VAERS (http://vaers.hhs.gov/index)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 01:26:20 PM
Redo your math using the CI.

You skipped my entire point bec. you feel I may have made a mistake with the confidence intervals? There is a huge risk of infertility in ppl who contract mumps! Not getting the vaccine puts individuals (and others) at much greater risk of contracting mumps. Unless you don't consider infertility a major concern it behooves you to keep it in the discussion of the risks of not vaccinating with the MMR vaccine.

Regarding the CI, they are only measuring the rate ratio which is a measure used to determine ones risk of getting the condition being studied. I do not believe that this changes the fact that the difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated is statistically significant. If you'd like to discuss this irrelevant part further, let's do it on PM to not distract from the main point.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 11, 2013, 01:26:57 PM
I did not say it comes from reading these books. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.
You sure implied it. Maybe look at it the other way around.
These people are open-minded and think for themselves, maybe that's why they are reading such books.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 01:28:51 PM
:oYou really need to do some more research if you believe that. Start with VAERS (http://vaers.hhs.gov/index)

Please be more clear about what you are trying to imply. Linking me to the homepage for AE for vaccines is not very specific. Are you trying to say that flu vaccines are heavily tested?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 11, 2013, 01:37:07 PM
You sure implied it. Maybe look at it the other way around.
These people are open-minded and think for themselves, maybe that's why they are reading such books.

I think you missed my point, I was saying that they are being "open minded" in accepting their opinion, but when presented with facts that say otherwise they would snap shut.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 11, 2013, 01:50:26 PM
I think you missed my point, I was saying that they are being "open minded" in accepting their opinion, but when presented with facts that say otherwise they would snap shut.
Any why would they do this?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: skyguy918 on November 11, 2013, 02:05:54 PM
Yes but MMR, Hepatitis B, tdap and Polio amongst others are crucial life-saving shots that have been tested long enough and shown enough worth to be an accepted part of society today. Ppl who argue against it (yet might even take it themselves) just leave the ignorant masses confused and a danger to themselves and others.
And I'm fairly certain those are not among the vaccines that she doesn't give. Nothing in my post implies otherwise.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 11, 2013, 02:07:25 PM
And I'm fairly certain those are not among the vaccines that she doesn't give. Nothing in my post implies otherwise.

Sorry it wasn't directed towards you at all!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Galitzyaner on November 11, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
I think you missed my point, I was saying that they are being "open minded" in accepting their opinion, but when presented with facts that say otherwise they would snap shut.
Having followed this thread from the start, something tells me it occurs the other way around as well ::)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 05:05:06 PM
You skipped my entire point bec. you feel I may have made a mistake with the confidence intervals? There is a huge risk of infertility in ppl who contract mumps! Not getting the vaccine puts individuals (and others) at much greater risk of contracting mumps. Unless you don't consider infertility a major concern it behooves you to keep it in the discussion of the risks of not vaccinating with the MMR vaccine.

Regarding the CI, they are only measuring the rate ratio which is a measure used to determine ones risk of getting the condition being studied. I do not believe that this changes the fact that the difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated is statistically significant. If you'd like to discuss this irrelevant part further, let's do it on PM to not distract from the main point.
Agreed. Let's keep the irrelevance out of the discussion.

I agree with your point that contracting mumps puts one at risk of fertility problems and that infertility is a major concern.

The question I hope we can all address civilly is whether getting the MMR vaccine really helps to prevent the disease and if it does, whether the complications that can result from getting the vaccine should preclude one from getting it.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 05:08:02 PM
No idea didn't even read it :D
Lol. Because it was about natural recovery from orchitis.

Honest question: Have you ever done any of your own research about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines that you are injecting your children with? Other than what your MD tells you and you can read in the conventional publications.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 05:20:43 PM
Please be more clear about what you are trying to imply. Linking me to the homepage for AE for vaccines is not very specific. Are you trying to say that flu vaccines are heavily tested?
We both agree that they are not.
Here (http://bit.ly/1j2I9z6) is a query from the government administrated Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System showing how over 1000 people died as a result of the various flu vaccines administered each year. This is only the people or doctors who went through the laborious process of reporting an adverse event and does not count the many which are not reported.
This (http://bit.ly/HSA98F) query shows over 11,000 cases of serious side effects as a direct result of the aforementioned flu vaccine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 12, 2013, 05:24:40 PM
Lol. Because it was about natural recovery from orchitis.

Honest question: Have you ever done any of your own research about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines that you are injecting your children with? Other than what your MD tells you and you can read in the conventional publications.
No, I leave difficult decisions that take years of training in the hands of experts who have went through that training, just like for most things in my life.

If thousands of non-government experts have researched something then I'm not one to assume there's some huge conspiracy/collusion going on here.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 06:35:23 PM
No, I leave difficult decisions that take years of training in the hands of experts who have went through that training, just like for most things in my life.
And you are comfortable leaving that decision in the hands of someone else?! Your doctor can give you his opinion and state his knowledge but at the end of the day, that decision is a deeply personal one that should only be made by the parents for their own child.

The next time you take your child to the doctor to get vaccinated, ask him one question. If CH'V something goes wrong, who is responsible and what can I do about it?
You may be shocked to hear that the answer is that you alone are responsible and there is nothing you can do about it.

The National Child Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 protects the vaccine manufacturer from liability for unavoidable adverse side effects.
http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/origihanlaw.aspx (http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/origihanlaw.aspx)

The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) also protects your doctor from any liability if a vaccine injures your baby.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html (http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html)

Does the fact that there is no liability or accountability of anyone involved in vaccinating your child not set off any alarm bells in your head?!

May I suggest you do some of your own research?
Speak to people, do some searches. There are people on this forum who know children who have been injured by vaccines personally, and I'm sure if you started asking you can find many more.

Quote
If thousands of non-government experts have researched something then I'm not one to assume there's some huge conspiracy/collusion going on
Excuse me while I go put on my tinfoil hat but that indeed may be the case.

Merck, the maker of the MMR vaccine, has a history of faking test and safety data for the sake of profit. You only need to look at the Vioxx scandal to see that. Merck was exposed by the FDA as having concealed the fact that Vioxx was deadly for 5 years before it pulled it off the market. The FDA also admitted that its regulation had failed the public. Vioxx killed between 40,000 and 80,000 people in the US. The settlement cost Merck an estimated $3.5 billion dollars. Merck also has a long paper trail of litigation highlighting the company’s questionable ethics.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/787269 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/787269)

Avandia: Linked to over 1,800 deaths and $2.5 billion dollar settlement. Glaxo Smith Kline, the maker of Avandia was also accused of concealing harmful evidence for years before Avandia was pulled off the market.
http://www.ismp.org/QuarterWatch/2009Q4.pdf (http://www.ismp.org/QuarterWatch/2009Q4.pdf)

Vaccine patents, unlike drug patents, do not expire, providing years and years of unending profits and the manufacturers are protected from litigation by the federal government. There is no possibility of a lawsuit or a settlement. They wouldn't be on the hook for one cent.

Merck was even sued for having lied and falsified data on the effectiveness of the MMR vaccines by two of their own scientists who used to work for them and were in charge of the testing program.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120622-710001.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120622-710001.html)

Case in point. The pharmacuetical companies have falsified, lied, and killed tens of thousands of people before. The incentive for them to lie and falsify data for vaccines is even more compelling.

Just do your own research and don't put the responsibility for the health of your precious children in the hands of someone else, especially when that someone has no accountability for any adverse effects.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Harris on November 12, 2013, 06:40:46 PM
jaywhy, well said sir.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 12, 2013, 06:50:05 PM
"Speak to people, do some searches. "
That is not RESEARCH!! Speaking to one person does not constitute research.  I would rather believe the scientists who are intelligent and spend their lives trying to improve people's lives than anecdotes and rumors.  This is a silly discussion with people who are generally uninformed about this important issue.   Yes there may be a small risk of vaccinations, but those risks pale in comparison to the risk of the disease that they definitely prevent.  You unvaccinated ones are not getting sick because you rely on others to be immune and not pass it on to you. Some would claim that the unvaccinated ones are just SELFISH, relying on others to take the small risk yet reaping all the rewards.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 12, 2013, 07:06:28 PM
The question I hope we can all address civilly is whether getting the MMR vaccine really helps to prevent the disease and if it does, whether the complications that can result from getting the vaccine should preclude one from getting it.

Well prior to the Measles vaccine there were ~2.6 Million deaths per year worldwide! Now (after the vaccine) it's under 200k. www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Sometimes people feel the need to blame someone when something tragic happens. Don't make something that is straightforward more complicated than it needs to be. These vaccines are literally life-savers. Do they have side-effects? Absolutely. But they are nothing compared to the good they do. If you want to do something positive, develop a vaccine with fewer side-effects! Or publish authentic research showing that the vaccines do more harm than good.

You're living in the glass house created by vaccines, be careful where you throw your stones.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 07:10:53 PM
"Speak to people, do some searches. "
That is not RESEARCH!! Speaking to one person does not constitute research.  I would rather believe the scientists who are intelligent and spend their lives trying to improve people's lives than anecdotes and rumors.  This is a silly discussion with people who are generally uninformed about this important issue.   Yes there may be a small risk of vaccinations, but those risks pale in comparison to the risk of the disease that they definitely prevent.  You unvaccinated ones are not getting sick because you rely on others to be immune and not pass it on to you. Some would claim that the unvaccinated ones are just SELFISH, relying on others to take the small risk yet reaping all the rewards.
Who said anything about speaking to one person?
Speaking to other parents and to people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines certainly is doing your own research. I'm not saying to disregard everything your doctor tells you, just do your own research and take everything your doctor tells you about vaccines with a big, fat, glistening grain of salt.
If you would rather believe scientists whose research is sponsored by the vaccine manufacturers, and who have no accountability for anything going wrong, go right ahead.

The problem with herd immunity is that it is a natural effect that science tries to mimic, unsuccessfully. Hence the need for booster shots and all of that.
In the mumps outbreaks mentioned earlier in this thread, the only people who were truly immune from mumps were the people who had contracted the disease naturally. The disease affected both vaccinated and unvaccinated people almost indiscriminately.

Please try to keep this discussion civil.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Menachem613 on November 12, 2013, 08:24:53 PM
Like most decisions in life, you need to weigh the risks of a vaccine against the risk of getting the disease.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Menachem613 on November 12, 2013, 08:28:23 PM
We both agree that they are not.
Here (http://bit.ly/1j2I9z6) is a query from the government administrated Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System showing how over 1000 people died as a result of the various flu vaccines administered each year. This is only the people or doctors who went through the laborious process of reporting an adverse event and does not count the many which are not reported.
This (http://bit.ly/HSA98F) query shows over 11,000 cases of serious side effects as a direct result of the aforementioned flu vaccine.

Isn't the National Vaccine Information Center an anti-vaccination advocacy group?

Also, how did the NVIC determine the cause of death? 

As an aside, I don't think even the NVIC is claiming that over 1,000 people die annually from the flu vaccine.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 12, 2013, 09:14:45 PM
Like most decisions in life, you need to weigh the risks of a vaccine against the risk of getting the disease.
like all issues in life one should ask a competent halachic authority.
I thing I posted up thread: The consensus of the poskim is that we do not have to be choshes at all for the miut damage and we are absolutely obligated to listen to the vast majority of doctors who say that this saves lives.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 12, 2013, 09:36:50 PM
Who said anything about speaking to one person?
Speaking to other parents and to people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines certainly is doing your own research. I'm not saying to disregard everything your doctor tells you, just do your own research and take everything your doctor tells you about vaccines with a big, fat, glistening grain of salt.
If you would rather believe scientists whose research is sponsored by the vaccine manufacturers, and who have no accountability for anything going wrong, go right ahead.

The problem with herd immunity is that it is a natural effect that science tries to mimic, unsuccessfully. Hence the need for booster shots and all of that.
In the mumps outbreaks mentioned earlier in this thread, the only people who were truly immune from mumps were the people who had contracted the disease naturally. The disease affected both vaccinated and unvaccinated people almost indiscriminately.

Please try to keep this discussion civil.
And how many "people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines" do you actually KNOW??    While undoubtedly some scientists may be biased, the vast majority of them are not under the influence of the vaccine makers.  Many experts on the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practice are independent of the manufacturers.  Sadly you are misinformed.  Vaccines are truly one of the greatest medical breakthroughs ever.  They have saved millions of lives.  Oh well, I'll protect you and your family by getting vaccinated.  But if you get the flu, don't take any medicine because any study that shows that medicines help with certain infections was undoubtedly sponsored by a manufacturer.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 12, 2013, 09:42:28 PM
Parents of children with autism seek someone to blame. That's what this is all about.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 12, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
OK- let's ramp up this lively discussion a bit with another question-  How many parents have vaccinated their teenage children with the HPV Vaccine (Gardisil)?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 11:30:05 PM
Well prior to the Measles vaccine there were ~2.6 Million deaths per year worldwide! Now (after the vaccine) it's under 200k. www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Sometimes people feel the need to blame someone when something tragic happens. Don't make something that is straightforward more complicated than it needs to be. These vaccines are literally life-savers. Do they have side-effects? Absolutely. But they are nothing compared to the good they do. If you want to do something positive, develop a vaccine with fewer side-effects! Or publish authentic research showing that the vaccines do more harm than good.

You're living in the glass house created by vaccines, be careful where you throw your stones.
That is debatable. There is a strong argument to be made that improved sanitation and medical care reduced the fatality rate and incidence of measles as much or more than the vaccine.

Vaccines are very, very far from being straightforward. They may indeed save lives. But they also may kill and maim many people in the process.

There are 2 sides to every story and pros and cons to everything. The mudslinging and attacks that have been going on in this thread are uncalled for and don't promote anything positive. If one is so confident in either side, there is no need for mudslinging and attacks. Just make your case and leave it at that. Attacks are usually a product of insecurity and ignorance.

I'm trying to do something positive by showing that vaccines are not an open shut case. Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 11:34:58 PM
Isn't the National Vaccine Information Center an anti-vaccination advocacy group?

Also, how did the NVIC determine the cause of death? 

As an aside, I don't think even the NVIC is claiming that over 1,000 people die annually from the flu vaccine.
They are pulling the data directly from VAERS. You can crosscheck the VAERS ID for each report if you wish.
I can see how my statement can be misleading. I meant that over 1,000 people have been killed by the various flu vaccines that are given out and changed on an annual basis.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 11:36:23 PM
Parents of children with autism seek someone to blame. That's what this is all about.
That is a really mean thing to say. I hope to God you don't regret that one day.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 12, 2013, 11:38:09 PM
OK- let's ramp up this lively discussion a bit with another question-  How many parents have vaccinated their teenage children with the HPV Vaccine (Gardisil)?
If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 12, 2013, 11:39:44 PM
If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market
That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: pghtown on November 12, 2013, 11:42:42 PM
While an informed consumer is always best.  Just like I defer to Dan our expert on frequent flier issues, I defer to the scientists and physicians who have the expertise and knowledge to provide an informed opinion based on scientific evidence.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 13, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.
Please post references before making outrageous statements.

Just wrong.
#1. It supposedly prevents the HPV virus, which can lead to cervical cancer if it doesn't heal by itself.
From cancer.gov,
Quote
Most infections with high-risk HPVs do not cause cancer. Many HPV infections go away on their own within 1 to 2 years. However, infections that last for many years increase a person’s risk of developing cancer.
Furthermore, both HPV vaccines are only effective against 2 strains of cancer causing HPV. HPV is a family of over 150 viruses, 40 of which can cause cancer . If there was any exposure to HPV before vaccination, the vaccine is useless.

HPV can also easily be detected by a simple pap smear. Being that HPV lingers for 10-20 years before causing serious lesions that in only 50% of cases lead to cervical cancer, a routine pap smear during that timeframe will easily detect the virus.
Quote
In clinical trials, 361 of 8,817 women who received at least one shot of Gardasil went on to develop precancerous lesions on their cervixes within three years of vaccination, just 14% fewer than in a placebo control group.
Hardly a slam dunk.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV (http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV)
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB117668541991270825

#2. Here (http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=DAF9A3D2B38AAC2A7A83136FCFE6B750) is a search of VAERS showing over 1,100 cases of serious side effects or death from HPV vaccines. Japan has withdrawn its recommendation for HPV vaccination programs after thousands of cases of serious side effects were reported.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645)
Merck has only tested the vaccine in several hundred young girls aged 11- and 12-years, yet the company lobbied dozens of states to make the vaccine mandatory for 11- and 12-year-old girls even if they are not sexually active.
Listen to what Dr. Diane Harper, one of the lead researchers for the Merck drug who helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it had to say about that.
Quote
If we vaccinate 11 year olds and the protection doesn't last... we've put them at harm from side effects, small but real, for no benefit," says Dr. Harper. "The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed. Enough serious side effects have been reported after Gardasil use that the vaccine could prove riskier than the cervical cancer it purports to prevent. Cervical cancer is usually entirely curable when detected early through normal Pap screenings.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-5253431.html

If you feel comfortable giving that to an 11 year old, that's your decision. Just make sure you weigh the pros and cons carefully before injecting your child with a vaccine that can kill or seriously maim them for life with little or no benefit.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 13, 2013, 11:28:10 AM
like all issues in life one should ask a competent halachic authority.
I thing I posted up thread: The consensus of the poskim is that we do not have to be choshes at all for the miut damage and we are absolutely obligated to listen to the vast majority of doctors who say that this saves lives.
Probably depends how you ask the question...
The halachic answer that I got (for me) from a posek, was that: Since vast majority of doctors say it saves lives, you can't just go against them. However, if you research by speaking to ppl with knowledge in the field (doctors etc) then proper hishtadlus is to go with what makes the most sense...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 13, 2013, 12:32:36 PM
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
2. there are 30-40 types of HPV that can cause cancer but only ~15 that can cause "high-risk" cancer (the low-risk very rarely cause cancer). Amongst these type 16 & 18 (included in both vaccines) cause >70% of all cervical cancers.
3. It is unclear whether exposure prior to vaccination limits its effect, it was not studied during the initial experiments.

4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.

6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.

Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 13, 2013, 12:45:26 PM
That is debatable. There is a strong argument to be made that improved sanitation and medical care reduced the fatality rate and incidence of measles as much or more than the vaccine.

Vaccines are very, very far from being straightforward. They may indeed save lives. But they also may kill and maim many people in the process.

There are 2 sides to every story and pros and cons to everything. The mudslinging and attacks that have been going on in this thread are uncalled for and don't promote anything positive. If one is so confident in either side, there is no need for mudslinging and attacks. Just make your case and leave it at that. Attacks are usually a product of insecurity and ignorance.

I'm trying to do something positive by showing that vaccines are not an open shut case. Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

Polio afflicted ~35k Americans in 1954. In 1955 it was ~2.5k. In 1965 it was 65 total. Did hospitals get so much cleaner in one year? Did doctors become so much better in 12 months? No, but the Salk vaccine for Polio was introduced. Draw your own conclusions.

I was not trying to mudsling with my glass house comment, I sincerely mean that people who enjoy the benefits of something need to consider the risk of removing it. I do get passionate about this because unlike most, I speak to people on the other side of this discussion. The people in the hospital who saw hundreds and thousands dying from dreaded infections with no hope for cure.

I would strongly recommend to all those who speak to someone who believes they were harmed by vaccines (which do happen but they have become demonized and blamed for far more than they actually cause) to speak to someone who was afflicted with the disease in question. Or better yet, speak to a grandparent who remembers the polio epidemic or other such epidemics and how they lived in fear of leaving their homes. This may help even the playing field of people's emotions and allow them to actually make educated informed decisions.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 13, 2013, 12:56:53 PM
1. Gardasil is quadrivalent (protects against 4 strains)
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

Quote
4. A routine pap smear will likely not detect the virus (only ~50% of of high-grade "pre-cancer" are detected). It has low sensitivity as a test but becomes a much better diagnostic tool when used repeatedly.
5. The study you quote is measuring the reduction of cervical cancer due to any strain (the # are much higher when looking at the strains targeted). Regardless women have a 1/147 chance of developing cervical cancer in their lifetime. That is ~1.2 million women in the USA who will get cervical cancer. A 14% reduction would save >160K women currently alive from getting cervical cancer. Not an insignificant # by any stretch.
From the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/cervical/statistics/#1).
Quote
Cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of cancer death for women in the United States. However, in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.
Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."

Quote
6. Dr. Harper clearly states if they vaccinate those girls and the protection does not last. At this point in time we don't know if it will last or if a booster will be needed. These things are being experimented vigorously by both the drug company and independent scientists.
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."

Quote
Conclusion: I am not advocating the absolute use of HPV vaccines. It is still early and a full understanding of the ramifications (both good and bad) is not yet known. However accurate information is crucial. It is far too easy for people ignorant (in the ways of studies and science) to be led to believe something that is totally false.
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
Quote
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 13, 2013, 03:49:47 PM
I wrote "2 strains of cancer causing HPV." The other 2 strains it protects against, HPV types 6 and 11, do not cause cancer but can cause skin warts.

From the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/cervical/statistics/#1). Not sure where you got 1.2 million from. From that same page. "In 2010, 11,818 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer."
Read the full article.  She says "data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years."
I am neither advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.
My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field and people in this thread.
You included those same skin wart causing strains in what you claimed were the "40 that cause cancer" but not in those that the vaccine protects against.
1.2 million was the risk for all American women over a lifetime, We are saying practically the same thing. It's a pretty significant amount.
There is no data saying it will work beyond 5 years and there is likewise no data saying it will not work. My point was we don't know enough about this specific vaccine yet in that regards.

You make intelligent arguments, and I appreciate your level-headedness about the topic but what I have not seen from you yet is much in response to the amazing results that vaccines have had. I would expect someone like you to imagine some of these diseases that stole away parents, spouses and most often young children and say "thank G-d for modern medicine that we no longer have to live in fear when shaking someone's hand in the store that I may not live tomorrow". Are there problems with vaccines? Absolutely. Should we try to make them better and address some of the side effects? That's where those who have been hurt by vaccines should focus their energy.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 14, 2013, 10:00:35 AM
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 14, 2013, 10:19:48 AM
Definitely go and vaccinate your kids.
A few babies in my community have been murdered by parents of other kids who are reintroducing this terrible disease by not immunizing.
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 10:20:27 AM
http://www.localjewishnews.com/2013/11/13/whooping-cough-cases-are-up-in-ohio-leading-health-officials-to-urge-up-to-date-vaccinations/
So apparently, whooping cough is going around... My question is, if someone isn't giving vaccines in general - is this the point that one would go out and vaccinate the kids, or is there reason to avoid...
better yet, go to YouTube and watch a video of babies struggling to breath due to pertussis and then decide whether you wanna listen to the kooks not.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 14, 2013, 01:00:46 PM
You mean death isn't preferable to the 1 in xxxxx chance of a serious side effect?
According to the latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Achas Veachas on November 14, 2013, 01:06:13 PM
According to latest study by the CDC, 1 in 88 children are diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Hardly a 1 in 10,000 chance.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html)
::) Who said anything about a vaccine?
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Dan on November 14, 2013, 01:07:08 PM
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 14, 2013, 01:10:37 PM
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.

ETA:
I just received a phone call from someone asking me to continue posting here. So in the spirit of honest debate, I will.
Let's try to keep emotions and flaming under control.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
This where I bow out of this thread.

I've said what I had to say and hopefully I've made my point. Based on the PM's I've received, at least some people are listening.

Thanks to Dan and YankyDoodle for spurring me to further my own research.

Accusations of murder, I'm talking to you CBC, don't help anyone and make your arguments look weak.

You want to have an honest discussion, go do your own research and back it up with facts and sources.

People who have legitimate questions are welcome to PM me.
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 14, 2013, 02:05:58 PM
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
See my above post about studies being manipulated.
Obviously, I'm not going to attribute every case of autism to vaccines but the shocking rise in autism begs an answer.
1 in 10,000 in 1980 to 1 in 88 in 2008. Something must be causing it.
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism (http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 14, 2013, 02:10:11 PM
Facts are that Pertussis was all but eradicated thanks to the Vaccine, recently, parents of children with autism are on some kind of witch hunt and have mislead many in the frum community to stop immunizing their children. This has directly led to renewed, unprecedented outbreaks of pertussis that has killed some innocent frum babies.
These are all facts.
I think it is wrong and immoral to convince others to go against conventional medical advice that has been proven to save thousands of lives.
I am not at all insensitive to parents who nebach have children with autism rc"l, (though it may come across this way.) I do not question the way Hashem controls the world and there is no excuse to create risk to other peoples children.

I have had a personal conversation with a husband of a non jewish author of a militant anti vaccination book, he admitted that this was her way of dealing with an autistic child, ie blame someone....
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 14, 2013, 02:31:09 PM
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 03:26:40 PM
Please post references with every fact.
You can't extrapolate your conversation with one person to every parent of an autistic child. That simply makes no sense.
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd. 
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 03:29:44 PM
You are 100% correct that there are no studies that show correlation. In addition to that, there are so many people that were fighting that fight that just backed down (which doesn't show much credibility to their case).
However:
1. AFAIK, There is no study that shows any link (including genetics) to autism, so it still can be a concern.
Lehavdil- off top of my head, if there is a pitcher that lost velocity in fastball, and there is no proof that it is an old injury (shoulder, for example), but there is no conclusion as to where the loss of velocity is coming from... Just because there proof that it was the elbow doesn't show that it's impossible...
2. There are other concerns besides autism. Example, getting the flu after flu vax, shingles after cp vax, ADD, ADHD, memory loss in future etc. where there is no proof one way or the other. There is, however, reason to research before giving a child 5 vaccines at once, or a flu shot-in-the-vein (or chicken pox vaccine). Injecting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients should come with more limits than credit pulls...
Il Grant you that you are "concerned", but why is it so hard to weigh a small risk against a large risk and make a sane decision? !
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 14, 2013, 03:34:00 PM
Do you disagree with the any of the facts that I posted?
Do you not agree that the vaccine all but eradicated pertussis in the 1940-1980's?
 It comes back whenever there is a "theory" that the vaccine causes harm. Babies then die.
You dont need me to post references, these facts are not even debated by the anti vaccine crowd.
If you can't post references for everything you say, I won't waste my time debating you.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 14, 2013, 03:34:54 PM
@jaywhy @barryg

Show me one legitimate peer-reviewed and reproduced scientific study showing that the results of any of the major vaccines causes more harm than good (yes that is a subjective measure, but I'm willing to be flexible), or even harm within the same range as the good caused by vaccines and I will personally claw the tdap vaccine that was injected into my arm not more than 20 min ago out with my bare hands.

Seriously speaking you cannot scientifically blame these health conditions on vaccines any more than you can blame them on cell phones, extra radiation, preservatives in food products, poorer diets or any of 1000 other changes that have occurred in the last 10-50 years!
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 04:15:12 PM
Quote
If you can't post references for everything you say, I won't waste my time debating you.
Quote
Before vaccines, an average of 178,171 cases were reported in the U.S., with peaks reported every two to five years; more than 93% of reported cases occurred in children under 10 years of age. The actual incidence was likely much higher. After vaccinations were introduced in the 1940s, incidence fell dramatically to less than 1,000 by 1976. Incidence rates have increased since 1980. In 2012, rates in the United States reached a high of 41,880 people; this is the highest it has been since 1955 when numbers reached 62,786.[29]

Pertussis is the only vaccine-preventable disease that is associated with increasing deaths in the U.S. The number of deaths increased from four in 1996 to 17 in 2001, almost all of which were infants under one year.[30] In Canada, the number of pertussis infections has varied between 2,000 and 10,000 reported cases each year over the last ten years.[31]

Australia reports an average of 10,000 cases a year, but the number of cases has increased in recent years.[32] In the U.S. pertussis in adults has increased significantly since about 2004.[33]
Quote
However, before that point, criticism of the studies showing no connection and a few well-publicized anecdotal reports of permanent disability that were blamed on the DPT vaccine gave rise to anti-DPT movements in the 1970s.[49] The negative publicity and fear-mongering caused the immunization rate to fall in several countries, including Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan. In many cases, a dramatic increase in the incidence of pertussis followed.[50]
[/b]

Its wikipedia I know, but these are not disputed facts.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: thaber on November 14, 2013, 11:14:11 PM
This article on vaccines and halacha got more hate mail than anything else I've ever written, I was shocked, but I realized that people feel strongly about things and don't necessarily let the facts or  independent research get in the way. I'm open to discussion, but it has to be relevant - most of the dissenters quoted studies that aren't relevant to the vaccines given today. http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha (http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha)
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 14, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
This article on vaccines and halacha got more hate mail than anything else I've ever written, I was shocked, but I realized that people feel strongly about things and don't necessarily let the facts or  independent research get in the way. I'm open to discussion, but it has to be relevant - most of the dissenters quoted studies that aren't relevant to the vaccines given today. http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha (http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/vaccines_in_halacha)
nice article!
The problem in Lakewood is with a certain rebitzin who is a self proclaimed naturalist and is in the militant anti vaccine camp. Her husband is not inclined to disagree...........................
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
Il Grant you that you are "concerned", but why is it so hard to weigh a small risk against a large risk and make a sane decision? !
Who said small risk? https://docs.google.com/document/d/10A7cl0pmJ-fq58ZCTgT2ZRqs7snyo-kjhQgVGkVkS2I/mobilebasic?pli=1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 15, 2013, 01:20:41 AM
See my above post about studies being manipulated.
Obviously, I'm not going to attribute every case of autism to vaccines but the shocking rise in autism begs an answer.
1 in 10,000 in 1980 to 1 in 88 in 2008. Something must be causing it.
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism (http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/how-common-is-autism)
Vaccines not only cause autism they also turn kids gay! A scientist (who supports gay marriage) explains that vaccines cause homosexuality (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/vaccines-produce-homosexuality-gay-gian-paolo-vanoli_n_2992953.html).

This would also explain the increase is homosexuality awareness and fight for equal rights. Clearly it is becoming more common because of vaccines.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: thaber on November 15, 2013, 01:36:02 AM
Vaccines not only cause autism they also turn kids gay! A scientist (who supports gay marriage) explains that vaccines cause homosexuality (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/vaccines-produce-homosexuality-gay-gian-paolo-vanoli_n_2992953.html).

This would also explain the increase is homosexuality awareness and fight for equal rights. Clearly it is becoming more common because of vaccines.
On the other hand it brought down gun violence, down 49% since 1993, when those first MMR babies were old enough to get guns
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 15, 2013, 01:39:54 AM
On the other hand it brought down gun violence, down 49% since 1993, when those first MMR babies were old enough to get guns

Actually that was thanks to Roe v. Wade making abortion legal. But that's for another thread.

HT: freakonomics
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: thaber on November 15, 2013, 02:00:33 AM
Actually that was thanks to Roe v. Wade making abortion legal. But that's for another thread.

HT: freakonomics
I was wondering if anyone would throw that Gladwellism back at me, that's probably why I know the statistic. But my point, and yours, stands.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 15, 2013, 02:05:19 AM
I was wondering if anyone would throw that Gladwellism back at me, that's probably why I know the statistic. But my point, and yours, stands.
I agree :)

Although I believe Gladwell, at least, initially debated against the abortion theory for the drop in crime. But if by Gladwellism you mean out of the box thinking I suppose I agree with that too.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 15, 2013, 02:35:49 AM
Lol. Let's attribute every autism case to getting vaccinated even though theres not a single legitimate study showing a correlation.
No legitimate studies you say?

Here is a small list.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Hepatitis+B+vaccination+of+male+neonates+and+autism+diagnosis,+NHIS+1997-2002 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Hepatitis+B+vaccination+of+male+neonates+and+autism+diagnosis,+NHIS+1997-2002)
Quote
Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates vaccinated with the hepatitis B vaccine prior to 1999 (from vaccination record) had a threefold higher risk for parental report of autism diagnosis compared to boys not vaccinated as neonates during that same time period.

http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf)
Quote
The increase in exposure to Al adjuvants significantly correlates with the increase in ASD prevalence in the United States observed over the last two decades and (iii) a significant correlation exists between the amounts of Al administered to preschool children and the current prevalence of ASD in seven Western countries, particularly at 3-4months of age

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535)
Quote
The reason for the rapid rise of autism in the United States that began in the 1990s is a mystery. Although individuals probably have a genetic predisposition to develop autism, researchers suspect that one or more environmental triggers are also needed. One of those triggers might be the battery of vaccinations that young children receive. Using regression analysis and controlling for family income and ethnicity, the relationship between the proportion of children who received the recommended vaccines by age 2 years and the prevalence of autism (AUT) or speech or language impairment (SLI) in each U.S. state from 2001 and 2007 was determined. A positive and statistically significant relationship was found

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17454560 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17454560)
Quote
There was a significant dose-response relationship between the severity of the regressive ASDs observed and the total mercury dose children received from Thimerosal-containing vaccines/Rho (D)-immune globulin preparations

http://www.safeminds.org/research/pediatric-vaccines-influence-primate-behavior.html (http://www.safeminds.org/research/pediatric-vaccines-influence-primate-behavior.html)
Quote
Macaques were administered the recommended infant vaccines, adjusted for age and thimerosal dose. Compared with unexposed animals, significant neurodevelopmental deficits were evident for exposed animals in survival reflexes, tests of color discrimination and reversal, and learning sets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482737 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482737)
Quote
Consistent significantly increased rate ratios were observed for autism, autism spectrum disorders, tics, attention deficit disorder, and emotional disturbances with Hg exposure from TCVs. By contrast, none of the control outcomes had significantly increased rate ratios with Hg exposure from TCVs.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02772240701806501#.UoXLnGTF3sd (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02772240701806501#.UoXLnGTF3sd)
Quote
This study found statistically significant evidence to suggest that boys in United States who were vaccinated with the triple series Hepatitis B vaccine, during the time period in which vaccines were manufactured with thimerosal, were more susceptible to developmental disability than were unvaccinated boys. The odds of receiving EIS were approximately nine times as great for vaccinated boys

http://labmed.ascpjournals.org/content/33/9/708.full.pdf (http://labmed.ascpjournals.org/content/33/9/708.full.pdf)
Quote
It is important to note that the late Dr. Rimland was the founder (1967) of the Autism Research Institute, and the founder of the Autism Society of America in 1965. According to Wikipedia, “Rimland was long an internationally recognized authority on autism spectrum disorders.”  His opinion speaks to the range and reality of actual expert and scientific opinions. Vaccinations may be one of the triggers for autism. Substantial data demonstrate immune abnormality in many autistic children consistent with impaired resistance to infection, activation of inflammatory response, and autoimmunity.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0027897 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0027897)
Quote
We examined 271,495 12 month vaccinations and 184,312 18 month vaccinations to examine the relative incidence of the composite endpoint of emergency room visits or hospital admissions in consecutive one day intervals following vaccination. We found statistically significant elevations in emergency room visits following all vaccinations. There were non-significant increases in hospital admissions. There were an additional 20 febrile seizures for every 100,000 vaccinated at 12 months

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Analysis+of+prevalence+trends+of+autism+spectrum+disorder+in+Minnesota. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Analysis+of+prevalence+trends+of+autism+spectrum+disorder+in+Minnesota.)
Quote
All other special educational disability categories also increased during this period, except for mild mental handicap, which decreased slightly from 24 per 10 000 to 23 per 10 000. We found that federal and state administrative changes favoring identification of autism spectrum disorders corresponded in time with the increasing rates. We found no corresponding decrease in any special educational disability category to suggest diagnostic substitution as an explanation for the autism trends in Minnesota.

http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=30182 (http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=30182)
Quote
We report the results of what we believe to be the first survey of professional opinion on the topic. Results suggest that among professional psychologists with a terminal degree (n = 88), the majority believe that diagnostic changes can not fully account for the observed increase; 72% reported either the true rate may have, or definitely has, increased.
Title: Re: Did You Get The Flu Vaccine This Winter?
Post by: jaywhy on November 15, 2013, 02:45:04 AM
@jaywhy @barryg

Show me one legitimate peer-reviewed and reproduced scientific study showing that the results of any of the major vaccines causes more harm than good (yes that is a subjective measure, but I'm willing to be flexible), or even harm within the same range as the good caused by vaccines and I will personally claw the tdap vaccine that was injected into my arm not more than 20 min ago out with my bare hands.

Seriously speaking you cannot scientifically blame these health conditions on vaccines any more than you can blame them on cell phones, extra radiation, preservatives in food products, poorer diets or any of 1000 other changes that have occurred in the last 10-50 years!
Ah, I see we are starting to make a dent in you if you are bringing up the "greater good" theory.  :)

I'm sure that that all the other factors you mentioned can be contributors as well, however, for most of the conventional medical field to completely exonerate vaccines from any relationship with these health disorders while there is clearly a link to be examined further simply makes no sense.

But that is what is happening today and that should make you scratch your head and wonder.
 

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on November 15, 2013, 02:48:50 AM
Vaccines not only cause autism they also turn kids gay! A scientist (who supports gay marriage) explains that vaccines cause homosexuality (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/01/vaccines-produce-homosexuality-gay-gian-paolo-vanoli_n_2992953.html).

This would also explain the increase is homosexuality awareness and fight for equal rights. Clearly it is becoming more common because of vaccines.
Lol.
Did you know that vaccines also cure cancer (http://bit.ly/1bz7OyL)?  ;D
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on November 15, 2013, 02:53:05 AM
Ah, I see we are starting to make a dent in you if you are bringing up the "greater good" theory.  :)

I'm sure that that all the other factors you mentioned can be contributors as well, however, for most of the conventional medical field to completely exonerate vaccines from any relationship with these health disorders while there is clearly a link to be examined further simply makes no sense.

But that is what is happening today and that should make you scratch your head and wonder.
 


Greater good on a macro scale is the existence of all vaccines v. No vaccines or modern medicine v. Ancient medicine.

Really going to argure we'd be better off with out modern medicine? Without vaccines? Without capitalism driving medical advances?

Greater good would seem to dictate that we follow what the modern accepted model is.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on November 15, 2013, 03:02:13 AM
Greater good on a macro scale is the existence of all vaccines v. No vaccines or modern medicine v. Ancient medicine.

Really going to argure we'd be better off with out modern medicine? Without vaccines? Without capitalism driving medical advances?

Greater good would seem to dictate that we follow what the modern accepted model is.
I'm referring to the greater good theory in specific relation to vaccination, not a vanilla utilitarian theory.

I'm obviously not arguing that.  Nor am I advocating complete abstinence from vaccines.

My point is to bring attention to the fact that there are legitimate, serious safety and efficacy concerns regarding vaccines that are being swept under the rug and attacked by the conventional medical field.
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh the pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 07:27:09 AM
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh the pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.
Some parents choose to let their doctor make this decision for them for many different reasons. Is this not acceptable?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 08:34:07 AM
My MIL is a  pediatrician and has done extensive research on the matter. She is a staunch supporter of vaccination. That's good enough for me. Do I know all the arguments? No. But the same way I wouldn't pasken a complicated choshen mishpat shaila on my own, I defer to the experts here as well
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 15, 2013, 08:41:46 AM
Of course you should listen your doctor!
If GD forbid someone was dying from cancer would they listen to the doctors?

If he needed a triple bypass would he go to the evil doctors or would he use Google?

When your child has strep or something do you listen to him? Do you trust him?
Vaccines are no different.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 15, 2013, 08:45:33 AM
Some parents choose to let their doctor make this decision for them for many different reasons. Is this not acceptable?
Generally, untrained parents should not make serious medical decisions. You can't just search the web and read a book and then  make life and death medical decisions.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 15, 2013, 08:48:20 AM
Why are there so very few trained, educated medical professionals who take jaywhys position? Do they not know how to do medical research?
Maybe its because they actually do know how!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: george on November 15, 2013, 09:00:38 AM
Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh the pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.
Just as much as every parent should do their own research and weigh the pros and cons and then make their own decision whether their child with appendicitis should undergo an appendectomy or not.
What the heck do these parents think they know or can possibly learn via "research" that will trump what the medical professionals advise? I hope they're simply suffering from ignorance and not stupidity or worse, tremendous arrogance.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: pghtown on November 15, 2013, 09:08:19 AM
Lol.
Did you know that vaccines also cure cancer (http://bit.ly/1bz7OyL)?  ;D
What happened to :  "This where I bow out of this thread"
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
Did anyone look at the poll?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
Did anyone look at the poll?
Do I get to vote again this year? It's been over 12 months...
AFAIK this poll was for last winter...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 09:57:07 AM
Some parents choose to let their doctor make this decision for them for many different reasons. Is this not acceptable?
I asked a doctor once. Why are meds for high cholesterol prescribed so often, if the reason for it is being overweight, smoking, etc. wouldn't it be better to get them on diet, stop smoking etc.
The answer was they won't do it, so the meds with side effects are better than nothing...
Here too, I'm not so sure every dr. would say that it is better to get multiple vaccines at once than to do on separate days, however, they don't offer, cause the patients wouldn't do it.
So in some cases the dr is suggesting the second or third best option, and they won't let you know unless you ask...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 10:00:16 AM
Of course you should listen your doctor!
If GD forbid someone was dying from cancer would they listen to the doctors?

If he needed a triple bypass would he go to the evil doctors or would he use Google?

When your child has strep or something do you listen to him? Do you trust him?
Vaccines are no different.
No-one here said that there is no use for doctors, I have the highest respect.
However, there are some exceptions in life, especially when I know dr's who used to think one way, and changed their beliefs after doing their own research...
Vaccines (and very possible strep) are different.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 10:07:34 AM
Why are there so very few trained, educated medical professionals who take jaywhys position? Do they not know how to do medical research?
Maybe its because they actually do know how!
Maybe there are many dr's who do, they just don't have as much fight in them as Dr Andrew Wakefield
and they would keep it to themselves and their families...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 15, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Maybe there are many dr's who do, they just don't have as much fight in them as Dr Andrew Wakefield
and they would keep it to themselves and their families...

His study is one of the most disgraceful, fraudulent and unsubstantiated studies ever printed. It has never been "reproduced" for a very good reason.

It does not take a lot of "fight" to make a real-life study (see Mr. Wakefield's study for the make-believe version). If the facts bear out any sort of 

BTW his license was stripped so I don't believe that Dr. is the appropriate title for him.

@jaywhy @barryg

Show me one legitimate peer-reviewed and reproduced scientific study showing that the results of any of the major vaccines causes more harm than good (yes that is a subjective measure, but I'm willing to be flexible), or even harm within the same range as the good caused by vaccines and I will personally claw the tdap vaccine that was injected into my arm not more than 24 hours ago out with my bare hands.
(edited to reflect that time changes)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on November 15, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
His study is one of the most disgraceful, fraudulent and unsubstantiated studies ever printed. It has never been "reproduced" for a very good reason.
BTW his license was stripped so I don't believe that Dr. is the appropriate title for him.

+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on November 15, 2013, 11:31:45 AM
Some parents choose to let their doctor make this decision for them for many different reasons. Is this not acceptable?
It can be perfectly acceptable. As long as the parents are properly educated on the pros and cons of vaccines, they can decide that they want to leave the decision up to their doctor.
Unfortunately, that isn't happening and there are legitimate concerns that should be addressed that are being shoved under the rug.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on November 15, 2013, 12:21:11 PM
Why are there so very few trained, educated medical professionals who take jaywhys position? Do they not know how to do medical research?
Maybe its because they actually do know how!
Maybe there are many dr's who do, they just don't have as much fight in them as Dr Andrew Wakefield
and they would keep it to themselves and their families...
His study is one of the most disgraceful, fraudulent and unsubstantiated studies ever printed. It has never been "reproduced" for a very good reason.

It does not take a lot of "fight" to make a real-life study (see Mr. Wakefield's study for the make-believe version). If the facts bear out any sort of 

BTW his license was stripped so I don't believe that Dr. is the appropriate title for him.
Exactly my point... Seems like this Dr. got bullied around, that's why info is (not impossible, but nevertheless) harder to find...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on November 15, 2013, 01:28:37 PM
Exactly my point... Seems like this Dr. got bullied around, that's why info is (not impossible, but nevertheless) harder to find...

Are you kidding me?? He did not get bullied. He falsified data and straight-out made up "patients" in order to earn fame and money. Even the most ardent anti-vaccine folk should be mad at him, he makes their arguments sound stupid when they can only point to a fake study. Without proof, he deceived people into not receiving the MMR vaccine thereby putting them and others at risk of serious injury and death. Even if you believe that there may be risk to vaccines it is irresponsible and borderline homicidal to do what he has done. No one who performs a proper legitimate study (regardless of the outcomes) will be vilified as a result.

Was Mr. Wonkfield derided prior to the recognition of his deception?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on November 24, 2013, 11:36:07 PM
http://shotbyshot.org/pertussis/bradys-story/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: mek on November 25, 2013, 12:01:20 AM
Wondering what all those who are pushing for parents to fully do their research think about the nyc law of metzitza bipeh? Not to get into the halachik debate, just about the informed consent part. Similar in that parents should know all the risks before a procedure or not
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Galitzyaner on November 25, 2013, 12:21:31 AM
Wondering what all those who are pushing for parents to fully do their research think about the nyc law of metzitza bipeh? Not to get into the halachik debate, just about the informed consent part. Similar in that parents should know all the risks before a procedure or not
I don't think anyone's calling for parents to be forced to "do their research."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on November 25, 2013, 12:34:00 AM
http://shotbyshot.org/pertussis/bradys-story/
http://news.yahoo.com/unfortunate-story-37-deaths-good-vaccine-083414585.html (http://news.yahoo.com/unfortunate-story-37-deaths-good-vaccine-083414585.html)
We can go "shot for shot" over this but I think by now we are all just... ;)
(http://www.necro-equine-sadism.com/beating-a-dead-horse.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on November 25, 2013, 12:35:27 AM
Wondering what all those who are pushing for parents to fully do their research think about the nyc law of metzitza bipeh? Not to get into the halachik debate, just about the informed consent part. Similar in that parents should know all the risks before a procedure or not
Better informed parents is never a bad thing.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on December 08, 2013, 12:28:46 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/05/measles-cdc-vaccine-vaccinations-disease/3878375/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on December 19, 2013, 10:14:23 PM
From Facebook:
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7962411520/h400F9113/)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 19, 2013, 10:23:09 PM
From Facebook:
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7962411520/h400F9113/)

Methinks thou doth protesteth too much
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 19, 2013, 10:51:25 PM
Couldn't of said it better myself!
There is never enough protest against baby killers.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on December 20, 2013, 10:05:29 AM

Methinks thou doth protesteth too much

+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on December 20, 2013, 10:27:44 AM
From Facebook:
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7962411520/h400F9113/)
Yay. A self admitted "alcohol induced, rage filled rant" from an arrogant unnamed scientist...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on December 20, 2013, 10:45:48 AM

For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.

What are said side effects of the flu shot?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 10:53:21 AM
What are said side effects of the flu shot?

Quote
The flu shot: The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. Some minor side effects that could occur are:
Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
Fever (low grade)
Aches
The nasal spray: The viruses in the nasal spray vaccine are weakened and do not cause severe symptoms often associated with influenza illness. In children, side effects from the nasal spray can include:
Runny nose
Wheezing
Headache
Vomiting
Muscle aches
Fever
In adults, side effects from the nasal spray vaccine can include
Runny nose
Headache
Sore throat
Cough
If these problems occur, they begin soon after vaccination and are mild and short-lived. Almost all people who receive influenza vaccine have no serious problems from it. However, on rare occasions, flu vaccination can cause serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. People who think that they have been injured by the flu shot can file a claim for compensation from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm

Sounds kind of similar to the flu, huh?

Look, that's not to say you shouldn't get the flu shot. You need to balance the expected harm from not getting it against the expected harm from getting it, and then adjust for risk aversion. Heart surgery is also dangerous and kills people, but on an expected value basis it sometimes is better than heart disease.
Title: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on December 20, 2013, 11:17:38 AM
My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on December 20, 2013, 11:23:40 AM
For me, the opposite of no-vaccines is not "do whatever the doctor says". It is to do your own homework on why various vaccines are reccomended when they are.

Do they give HPV to babies because babies are at danger of HPV, or because they want to make sure everyone gets it before they leave the hospital?

Is there really no added risk in giving vaccines to newborns over giving them at 6 months? Might want to consider that if it is a disease you aren't worried about until later.

When I see statements from the NYC board of health that the flu vaccine is "perfectly safe", I wonder how that is possible given the  side effects which affect many people--in some cases worse than the flu. That doesn't mean the flu vaccine is not better on an expected value basis, but we are being lied to because they don't trust us to make the "right decision" if we would know all the information.

And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.
+100
Yay. A self admitted "alcohol induced, rage filled rant" from an arrogant unnamed scientist...
Agree. Don't change your lifestyle and beliefs because he can curse.
My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.
If you don't get a flu shot, you are not for sure getting the flu. The next question to ask are what are odds of getting flu, how bad is it if you even get the flu and what are the odds of getting side effects if you get a shot or spray. Unfortunately it won't be easy to answer any of the above Q's as not everyone that gets a flu or side effects will report it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 11:26:29 AM
My question was about the shot, not the nasal spray.  I don't see how its possible side effects are worse than the flu itself.

See the first three lines of my quote. And the last paragraph.

I'm not sure what you think is impossible. There are many things worse than the flu, and certainly dying of an allergic reaction can be one of them. As can signing up for an amex and doing 5k of minimum spend and then being denied the bonus bec you had a card too closely previously. Or being denied boarding on your avios flight to toronto.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 20, 2013, 11:35:28 AM
@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 11:47:37 AM
@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

You mistake me. I agree with you--it is usually worth getting the flu shot. If you multiply your risk of getting the flu by the misery you expect to suffer, and then subtract the risk of side effects multiplied by the misery they cause, and subtract the time and money expended to get the shot, and subtract the needle if that bothers you--you usually end up with a positive number.

I'm just pointing out how "they" lie to us and tell us there are no side effects and is no risk, instead of trusting us to make my above calculation. My calculation is not equal to the NYC board of health declaring that it is absolutely safe and has no risk.

And then I'm noting that I personally have different interests than the boards of healths and the CDC, so it might not make sense for me to just accept their math instead of doing my own. (Of course add in the likelihood of my making a mistake in my math, and them having more perfect information, but my having more perfect personal information, and the cost of doing the math myself, etc.)

(Link this on the law school thread. This is the type of mush they put in your brain.)

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on December 20, 2013, 11:50:17 AM
@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.
B"H wasn't - maybe a day or two, but that was in HS and IIRC I wanted to be in bed anyways...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on December 20, 2013, 11:56:19 AM

@henche, Sounds like you were b'h never knocked out in bed for 2 weeks with the flu. Those minor side affects are nothing like the real deal.
IMHO.If you have a job or life and cant afford the risk of 2+ weeks of misery, get the shot and stop whining.

+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on December 20, 2013, 12:01:53 PM
Very happy I got the nasal flu vaccine, nasty flu stuff going around.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 12:04:55 PM
Very happy I got the nasal flu vaccine, nasty flu stuff going around.

I'm glad you got it too. Less people to get me sick  :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 20, 2013, 12:39:08 PM
You mistake me. I agree with you--it is usually worth getting the flu shot. If you multiply your risk of getting the flu by the misery you expect to suffer, and then subtract the risk of side effects multiplied by the misery they cause, and subtract the time and money expended to get the shot, and subtract the needle if that bothers you--you usually end up with a positive number.

I'm just pointing out how "they" lie to us and tell us there are no side effects and is no risk, instead of trusting us to make my above calculation. My calculation is not equal to the NYC board of health declaring that it is absolutely safe and has no risk.

And then I'm noting that I personally have different interests than the boards of healths and the CDC, so it might not make sense for me to just accept their math instead of doing my own. (Of course add in the likelihood of my making a mistake in my math, and them having more perfect information, but my having more perfect personal information, and the cost of doing the math myself, etc.)

(Link this on the law school thread. This is the type of mush they put in your brain.)
Add to your formula the risk of you infecting vulnerable relatives like pregnant wives, babies and elderly. (not "society", your family.)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 12:57:18 PM
Add to your formula the risk of you infecting vulnerable relatives like pregnant wives, babies and elderly. (not "society", your family.)

yes yes, indeed. It really is a complicated formula. That would be added to the number.

Also don't forget to add the good feeling you get from doing something which you think is good for you.
Or to subtract the bad feeling you get from doing something you think you are being coerced into. As the case may be.

And to add or subtract the feeling you get from doing things other people are also doing, if that makes you feel good or bad.

And to subtract the possibility of picking up some germs when you visit the doctors office or pharmacy to get the shot.

And the remote possibility that the nurse is crazy and infecting you purposely with hepatitis. http://www.medicaldaily.com/david-kwiatkowski-hospital-tech-who-infected-patients-hepatitis-c-faces-40-years-federal-prison

And the possibility that the nurse will notice you have a cancerous mole on your arm while giving the shot and save your life. 

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room.

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room while she's sick as a pig and looks awful and so you won't date her when she's suggested and will end up marrying a shrew who won't let you play guitar hero and drink beer all night long.

And the possibility your wife is an anti-vaccine lunatic and will get mad at you for getting it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on December 20, 2013, 01:26:25 PM

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room.

And the possibility you'll meet your bashert in the waiting room while she's sick as a pig and looks awful and so you won't date her when she's suggested and will end up marrying a shrew who won't let you play guitar hero and drink beer all night long.
I wasn't serious about finding a better wife. Please be happy with what you have and don't go looking just because of a comment I made on DDF.

And yes, we definitely need a DO if I'm ever in Beantown :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on December 20, 2013, 01:34:35 PM
Beantown again? 2x in a year?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on December 20, 2013, 01:41:41 PM
 :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2013, 06:07:57 PM
And once that is the case, it is fair to ask whether the "right decision" is better for society as a whole on an expected value basis, or better for me personally as well. Because I don't have the same interests as society as a whole.


And that there is a slippery moral slope, in which we can argue the benefits of a life of crime.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 06, 2014, 02:10:54 PM
Perfectly safe http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/01/06/report-girl-falls-asleep-up-to-30-times-a-day-after-getting-flu-shot/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2014, 02:14:42 PM
Perfectly safe http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/01/06/report-girl-falls-asleep-up-to-30-times-a-day-after-getting-flu-shot/
Its nothing to do with the shot. She ate a red apple on the day that these symptoms started and there is a web site that says that eating red apples can cause this. Google it!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 06, 2014, 02:26:55 PM
Only if the queen poisons the apple because she's prettier
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 06, 2014, 03:03:27 PM
Only if the queen poisons the apple because she's prettier
Duh, of course!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on January 06, 2014, 11:27:33 PM
Only if the queen poisons the apple because she's prettier
That's a lot of kissing.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on January 08, 2014, 12:53:43 AM
Perfectly safe http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/01/06/report-girl-falls-asleep-up-to-30-times-a-day-after-getting-flu-shot/
Funny that the comments that follow this article remind me of this thread... Except that we keep bringing religion into picture and they keep bringing in global warming...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 14, 2014, 02:29:50 PM
So, one metric being used to convince us to get the flu vaccine, is the amount of hospitalizations from the flu. According to the CDC, about 1/10,000 people who get the flu need to be hospitalized. (link (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/years-flu-hitting-young-healthy/story?id=21490459))

And usually 5-20% of people get said flu. (link (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/disease.htm). So we can say that the risk of hospitalization is between 1/50,000-1/200,000 if you don't get the vaccine. (This naturally ignores the fact that the rate of infection would be higher if less people got vaccine, but counteracts that by also ignoring the people who got vaccine and were infected anyway, so these numbers are off, but probably not my more than half, so use the lower bound if you wish.)

Now, let's compare that to the number of people who are hospitalized as a side effect of the flu vaccine itself. Which is--uh oh, nobody wants to tell you that number. Why not. I don't know. Is it important? Who knows. But would you be surprised if you were told it was 1/200,000...I wouldn't be.

Edit: The numbers seemed to mismatch. The news sources were misreading the CDC data. The 1/10,000 is hospitalizations/"people", not hospitalizations/"infected people". So the relevant number is simply 1/10,000. But I still want to know how many hospitalizations there are from the vaccine to compare it to that.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 14, 2014, 06:32:55 PM
The flu vaccine does not cause any serious illnesses or side affects and therefore there is no "number of people hospitalized due to having the vaccine"!
Noone is hiding anything, its safe. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 14, 2014, 07:06:55 PM
The flu vaccine does not cause any serious illnesses or side affects and therefore there is no "number of people hospitalized due to having the vaccine"!
Noone is hiding anything, its safe. Plain and simple.

To say with certainty that the flu vaccine does not cause any side effects is either ignorant or untrue. I am a big supporter of vaccines but to pretend that there are no risks is not helpful or honest.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 14, 2014, 07:16:04 PM
To say with certainty that the flu vaccine does not cause any side effects is either ignorant or untrue. I am a big supporter of vaccines but to pretend that there are no risks is not helpful or honest.
Why on earth should I think that there are any risks? The educated medical community has deemed them safe. There is absolutely no evidence of any risk.
If anything its only the ignorant who have are concerned.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on January 14, 2014, 07:35:27 PM
"CDC expects that any serious side effects following vaccination with the 2013-2014 flu vaccine would be very rare. Mild side effects that may occur are expected to be similar to those experienced following past seasonal influenza vaccine."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 14, 2014, 07:38:28 PM
To say with certainty that the flu vaccine does not cause any side effects is either ignorant or untrue. I am a big supporter of vaccines but to pretend that there are no risks is not helpful or honest.
If no one ended up in the hospital for it, that's good enough for me...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: A3 on January 14, 2014, 07:42:46 PM
Eh. If I hear of anyone around me getting the flu, I rather just start taking tamiflu then get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on January 14, 2014, 07:44:28 PM
If no one ended up in the hospital for it, that's good enough for me...
But how would you know whether anyone was hospitalized for symptoms stemming from the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on January 14, 2014, 07:47:33 PM
If no one ended up in the hospital for it, that's good enough for me...
What is Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS)?

Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) is a rare disorder in which a person’s own immune system damages their nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. GBS can cause symptoms that last for a few weeks. Most people recover fully from GBS, but some people have permanent nerve damage. In very rare cases, people have died of GBS, usually from difficulty breathing. In the United States, for example, an estimated 3,000 to 6,000 people develop GBS each year on average, whether or not they received a vaccination.
 
What causes GBS?

Many things can cause GBS; about two-thirds of people who develop GBS symptoms do so several days or weeks after they have been sick with diarrhea or a respiratory illness. Infection with the bacterium Campylobacter jejuni is one of the most common risk factors for GBS. People also can develop GBS after having the flu or other infections (such as cytomegalovirus and Epstein Barr virus). On very rare occasions, they may develop GBS in the days or weeks after getting a vaccination.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on January 15, 2014, 11:31:18 AM
Eh. If I hear of anyone around me getting the flu, I rather just start taking tamiflu then get vaccinated.
Don't forget the vitamin D3...
Btw you don't have to wait until ppl around you have the flu to start taking vitamin D3...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 15, 2014, 12:17:01 PM
I just kill them. Dead men spread no germs.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on January 15, 2014, 12:19:15 PM
I just kill them. Dead men spread no germs.
AFAIK they do, so don't forget to wear gloves or wash hands...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 15, 2014, 12:49:14 PM
AFAIK they do, so don't forget to wear gloves or wash hands...

Whatev's, in law school we learned that they tell no tales. I assumed that was true for other stuff also.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on January 15, 2014, 01:34:03 PM

Eh. If I hear of anyone around me getting the flu, I rather just start taking tamiflu then get vaccinated.

Is Tamiflu safer?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
Don't forget the vitamin D3...
Btw you don't have to wait until ppl around you have the flu to start taking vitamin D3...
Funny that you have no problem recommending vitamins to people who have anxiety about taking substances that are recommended by the scientific community and have been extensively tested to be one hundred percent safe. (flu vaccine) Meanwhile vitamins can cause more harm than good for many... 

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/1/6.full
Quote
The potential for high serum calcium to produce adverse physiologic effects warrants selection of this endpoint as the critical effect, ie, the adverse effect occurring at the lowest dosage, a selection consistent with that of the FNB in 1997. Excessive vitamin D intake is associated with additional significant clinical adverse effects, including pain, conjunctivitis, anorexia, fever, chills, thirst, vomiting, and weight loss. These are all due to hypercalcemia and occur only at very high vitamin D intakes. By themselves, these symptoms do not qualify as the critical effect in a risk assessment (59). Hypercalciuria (defined as 24-h calcium-to-creatinine molar ratios >1) may be a more sensitive indicator of vitamin D adverse effects than is hypercalcemia. However, this ratio may change for reasons other than calcium or vitamin D effects; eg, changes or differences in urinary creatinine unrelated to calcium metabolism will alter this ratio.

The recently published Women's Health Initiative (WHI) involving calcium and vitamin D3 supplementation has raised concerns about the potential for this combination to increase the risk of renal stones (60). The study involved nearly 36 000 postmenopausal women who were randomly assigned to receive either 1000 mg calcium and 10 μg (400 IU) vitamin D3/d or placebo, with an average follow up of 7 y. With respect to safety, results showed a significant 17% increased risk of renal stone formation in the supplement group (449 cases) compared with the placebo group (381 cases). The high use of self-selected supplements indicates that calcium intake in the experimental group was upwards of 2000 mg. In view of the vitamin D supplement levels of several hundred micrograms that have been administered experimentally without any hypercalcemia, it seems unlikely that the vitamin D treatment contributed to the excess risk of renal stones.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2014, 02:36:40 PM
Funny that you have no problem recommending vitamins to people who have anxiety about taking substances that are recommended by the scientific community and have been extensively tested to be one hundred percent safe. (flu vaccine) Meanwhile vitamins can cause more harm than good for many... 

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/1/6.full
Oy! Again with FACTS ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2014, 02:39:04 PM
Oy! Again with FACTS ::)
It was a google result... Vitamins do have dangerous side affects for some and are generally not recommended by most doctors. The flu shot is the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on January 15, 2014, 02:41:44 PM
It was a google result... Vitamins do have dangerous side affects for some and are generally not recommended by most doctors. The flu shot is the exact opposite.
Lol. Your head is so far in the sand, I'm surprised you're still able to breath :D
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2014, 02:44:30 PM
Lol. Your head is so far in the sand, I'm surprised you're still able to breath :D
So you guys are only anxious about things recommended by the doctors?

I guess its good that its not just a general anxiety disorder.

#glasshalffull
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2014, 02:47:41 PM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/01/13/the-top-six-vitamins-you-shouldnt-take/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2014, 02:48:45 PM
So you guys are only anxious about things recommended by the doctors?

I guess its good that its not just a general anxiety disorder.

#glasshalffull
Don't you know doctors are evil and are paid off by the drug companies? Vitamin producers and marketers on the other hand...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 15, 2014, 02:59:33 PM
I'm getting confused. I thought churnbaby was on my side and was being facetious when he wrote this:
Why on earth should I think that there are any risks? The educated medical community has deemed them safe. There is absolutely no evidence of any risk.
If anything its only the ignorant who have are concerned.
but now it seems like he's serious.

Churn: Yes, they are deemed safe, but that doesn't mean "no risk". It means "benefits to society outweigh the risks to society". Like automobiles, which are safe even though they have risks. And like eating chicken which is safe even though it has risks, and like bypass surgery which is safe even though it has risks...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2014, 03:25:14 PM
I'm getting confused. I thought churnbaby was on my side and was being facetious when he wrote this:but now it seems like he's serious.

Churn: Yes, they are deemed safe, but that doesn't mean "no risk". It means "benefits to society outweigh the risks to society". Like automobiles, which are safe even though they have risks. And like eating chicken which is safe even though it has risks, and like bypass surgery which is safe even though it has risks...
sorry bud, I was being serious. Flu vaccines are as risky as eating chicken. Thats MHO :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 15, 2014, 03:31:11 PM
sorry bud, I was being serious. Flu vaccines are as risky as eating chicken. Thats MHO :)
לא דק
I don't have the numbers but I'm sure there are way more chicken related deaths each year than vaccine related deaths.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 15, 2014, 04:32:40 PM
לא דק
I don't have the numbers but I'm sure there are way more chicken related deaths each year than vaccine related deaths.

Yup. There are many many chicken related deaths. And if I was being pressured to eat chicken by the government and assured that there was "no risk", I think I'd be rightly surprised.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on January 15, 2014, 05:17:04 PM
לא דק
I don't have the numbers but I'm sure there are way more chicken related deaths each year than vaccine related deaths.
You'd need percentages, not raw numbers. Not saying it changes the outcome, but it may.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on January 16, 2014, 12:52:43 AM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/01/13/the-top-six-vitamins-you-shouldnt-take/
1. He got blasted in comments by real dr.'s.
2. He tried to answer saying that his article was only referring to ppl that aren't deficient in Vitamin D. IMHO - most of us in this part of the Hemisphere, are very low in Vitamin D - especially in the winter.
3. Their experiments and tests give ppl 400IU or 800IU per day. Acc. to ppl. that know more than me about this stuff that amount of vitamin D wouldn't help one that is already deficient, especially in that age group. I'd like to see a test that they give them 4000IU-5000IU/day.
4. He's wrong.
5.
I take vitamin D supplements.  But going to a tanning salon to get D3, that's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2014, 10:41:53 AM
@Barryg

Vitamin supplements are a very touchy subject nowadays in the medical community. Recent data shows that unless there is a clear deficiency in a specific vitamin, there is little benefit to taking most supplements and it may possibly be harmful.

Regarding Vitamin D specifically one must be very careful. some vitamins are water soluble (they travel in liquid) and are easily excreted from the body. Some are fat soluble and are stored in the body for long periods of time. Vitamin D (and A, E, and K) are fat soluble and therefore pose a serious risk for overdose (called toxicity).

I'm not saying people shouldn't take supplements, just that people should be smart and careful and discuss it with a competent health/nutrition expert.

I find it curious though that the same people (I am not indicating anyone specific from DDF, just a worldly observation) who seem to be the most suspicious of the drug companies (due to their lust for money) have no such reservations about the integrity of the for-profit MVM (multivitamin and mineral) companies.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2014, 10:48:53 AM
@Barryg


I find it curious though that the same people (I am not indicating anyone specific from DDF, just a worldly observation) who seem to be the most suspicious of the drug companies (due to their lust for money) have no such reservations about the integrity of the for-profit MVM (multivitamin and mineral) companies.
+1
Mindblowing
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 11:00:43 AM
I'm not suspicious of drug companies: they don't hide their agenda, they are out to make money.
I'm suspicious of govt departments who say they have my interest in mind, but then hide or obfuscate information. Because I can't tell which team they're on.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 16, 2014, 11:47:05 AM
I'm not suspicious of drug companies: they don't hide their agenda, they are out to make money.
I'm suspicious of govt departments who say they have my interest in mind, but then hide or obfuscate information. Because I can't tell which team they're on.

Do you trust your doctor's suggestions? Seriously, not being sarcastic.

Everyone is out to make money. Whether it is drug companies, used car salesmen or lawyers. The key is to find a professional that you trust. The same is true for doctors. I find it strange that people will obviously defer to their lawyers', pilots' and accountants' expertise, but when it comes to medical issues? Mommy bloggers seem to be trusted way more than knowledgeable, credentialed doctors.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 12:02:38 PM
Do you trust your doctor's suggestions? Seriously, not being sarcastic.

Everyone is out to make money. Whether it is drug companies, used car salesmen or lawyers. The key is to find a professional that you trust. The same is true for doctors. I find it strange that people will obviously defer to their lawyers', pilots' and accountants' expertise, but when it comes to medical issues? Mommy bloggers seem to be trusted way more than knowledgeable, credentialed doctors.

I expect all of them to explain competing risks to me if it is something ill be able to somewhat understand and make the decision I'm comfortable with. Do you think your lawyer just decides on his own what to file?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2014, 12:05:03 PM
I expect all of them to explain competing risks to me if it is something ill be able to somewhat understand and make the decision I'm comfortable with. Do you think your lawyer just decides on his own what to file?

Every doctor I know does that. I would be shocked if they did not give you a paper (or at least a short shpiel) with the risks and possible side effects of a procedure. Major grounds for lawsuit and loss of licensure.

I'm suspicious of govt departments who say they have my interest in mind, but then hide or obfuscate information. Because I can't tell which team they're on.

The CDC and other govt agencies job is very clear, minimize public health risks. Doctors generally don't have this mentality (although they occasionally overlap).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 16, 2014, 12:13:51 PM
I expect all of them to explain competing risks to me if it is something ill be able to somewhat understand and make the decision I'm comfortable with. Do you think your lawyer just decides on his own what to file?

1000% - I trust my doctor because he explains and gives me the options. We're probably in agreement. But far too many people go in to the doctor's office with a NO EVIL DRUG COMPANY PRODUCTS NEAR MY CHILD attitude which is both harmful to them and the community.

It's sad to me that doctors have to be almost apologetic and ask if you will allow them to treat your children the way they have been trained to, or if you would rather listen to crunchy moms on the internet.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 12:39:10 PM

The CDC and other govt agencies job is very clear, minimize public health risks.

That isn't very clear at all. I'm not even sure I know what it means.

And I think most people read CDC advice and assume it is advice that is best for them personally.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 16, 2014, 12:41:59 PM
That isn't very clear at all. I'm not even sure I know what it means.

And I think most people read CDC advice and assume it is advice that is best for them personally.

I wouldn't assume most people read CDC advice at all!  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2014, 12:45:30 PM
That isn't very clear at all. I'm not even sure I know what it means.

And I think most people read CDC advice and assume it is advice that is best for them personally.

You know exactly what that means as you've aptly indicated in your earlier comments. It is a utilitarian view on the health of all people living in America. This is typically how government works in general. Is it best for you that the speed limit is 35? It would be anarchy if there were no regulations or guidelines but it would be best for me if I could drive any speed I want. As with most things in life we have to give (in the form or responsibilities) if we want to take (in the form of rights). The difference is that with healthcare there is a lot more concern for the negative consequences (and rightfully so), shortsighted as they might be.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 12:50:53 PM
You know exactly what that means as you've aptly indicated in your earlier comments. It is a utilitarian view on the health of all people living in America. This is typically how government works in general. Is it best for you that the speed limit is 35? It would be anarchy if there were no regulations or guidelines but it would be best for me if I could drive any speed I want. As with most things in life we have to give (in the form or responsibilities) if we want to take (in the form of rights). The difference is that with healthcare there is a lot more concern for the negative consequences (and rightfully so), shortsighted as they might be.

Agreed. And I'm not advocating anyone break the law. And there's no law which says I need to get a flu vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2014, 01:10:20 PM
Agreed. And I'm not advocating anyone break the law. And there's no law which says I need to get a flu vaccine.

All true, unfortunately common sense often cannot be mandated (and I'm not referring to the flu vaccine specifically).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 01:13:49 PM
All true, unfortunately common sense often cannot be mandated (and I'm not referring to the flu vaccine specifically).

But see above, that you agreed it isn't necessarily common sense at the personal level?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 16, 2014, 01:15:48 PM
But see above, that you agreed it isn't necessarily common sense at the personal level?
All true, unfortunately common sense often cannot be mandated (and I'm not referring to the flu vaccine specifically).
See bolded quote.
I was speaking in generalities.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 16, 2014, 01:36:44 PM
Ahh, gotcha.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on January 17, 2014, 02:38:49 AM
@ YankyDoodle, will respond, eventually, no time before Shabbos, sorry about the delay...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 17, 2014, 01:46:15 PM
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/q71/s720x720/1528610_3739592985763_1166573450_n.jpg)

Let's all skip the flu shot and dress more modestly, that ought to do it!

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 17, 2014, 01:47:59 PM


Let's all skip the flu shot and dress more modestly, that ought to do it!


I thought that caused earthquakes? ???
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on January 17, 2014, 02:35:42 PM
I thought that caused earthquakes? ???
Hurricanes too.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 18, 2014, 07:06:37 PM
SMH
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on January 18, 2014, 08:34:33 PM

Let's all skip the flu shot and dress more modestly, that ought to do it!

You mother never taught you to bundle up so that you don't get sick?   ;)

On a related note,  see the attached graph.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on January 18, 2014, 09:03:13 PM
You mother never taught you to bundle up so that you don't get sick?   ;)

On a related note,  see the attached graph.
:(

I was really hoping that graph was a correlation between girls who wear short skirts and girls who got the flu this winter.

Time to take this thread OT :P

You know what they say "Long skirt, long life. Short skirt..."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on January 18, 2014, 09:13:15 PM
You know what they say "Long skirt, long life. Short skirt..."
...more fun?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 18, 2014, 10:31:12 PM
"A good speech should be like a woman's skirt: long enough to cover the subject and short enough to create interest"
-Winston Churchill
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on January 22, 2014, 05:12:37 PM
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78971408/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 22, 2014, 05:29:50 PM
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78971408/

Notably, it doesn't have another graph showing autism outbreaks.

 :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 22, 2014, 07:04:40 PM
Notably, it doesn't have another graph showing autism outbreaks.

 :P
How did you miss it?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg704510#msg704510
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 22, 2014, 07:55:00 PM
How did you miss it?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg704510#msg704510

I mean, would it be weird if organic food were also tied to autism? It would make sense that an increase in organic food sales is correlated with an increase in use of pesticides in the food most people are eating, and it would not be strange if that caused autism
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 22, 2014, 07:59:59 PM
I mean, would it be weird if organic food were also tied to autism? It would make sense that an increase in organic food sales is correlated with an increase in use of pesticides in the food most people are eating, and it would not be strange if that caused autism
Why would there be more pesticides used just because more people are buying organic? ???
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 22, 2014, 08:23:59 PM
Why would there be more pesticides used just because more people are buying organic? ???

The opposite. People would buy more organic if there are more pesticides used. Hence, seeing people buy more organic may be the result of more pesticides being used.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 23, 2014, 03:02:43 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/index.html
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 23, 2014, 07:18:40 PM
Running 102. Have hours of work left to do tonight. Totally getting the flu.

But that won't stop me from posting.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Dan on January 23, 2014, 07:32:28 PM
Running 102. Have hours of work left to do tonight. Totally getting the flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 23, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
lol

I hope you one day have the tax issues I'm researching tonight.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on January 23, 2014, 10:15:15 PM

lol

I hope you one day have the tax issues I'm researching tonight.

What area?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 23, 2014, 11:05:25 PM
Can't tell!!!

(But you're probably have a lot of money if you're dealing with it)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on January 26, 2014, 12:31:33 PM
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement

http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#map
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on January 26, 2014, 12:50:43 PM
Repost!!!

(And btw, I totally didn't have the flu.)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on January 26, 2014, 02:47:39 PM
Has anyone here not gotten the polio vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on February 02, 2014, 03:12:15 AM
@Barryg

Vitamin supplements are a very touchy subject nowadays in the medical community. Recent data shows that unless there is a clear deficiency in a specific vitamin, there is little benefit to taking most supplements and it may possibly be harmful.

Regarding Vitamin D specifically one must be very careful. some vitamins are water soluble (they travel in liquid) and are easily excreted from the body. Some are fat soluble and are stored in the body for long periods of time. Vitamin D (and A, E, and K) are fat soluble and therefore pose a serious risk for overdose (called toxicity).

I'm not saying people shouldn't take supplements, just that people should be smart and careful and discuss it with a competent health/nutrition expert.

I find it curious though that the same people (I am not indicating anyone specific from DDF, just a worldly observation) who seem to be the most suspicious of the drug companies (due to their lust for money) have no such reservations about the integrity of the for-profit MVM (multivitamin and mineral) companies.
I personally don't get much vitamin d from food...
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/features/the-truth-about-vitamin-d-vitamin-d-food-sources
Though we have seen more sun than indicated here http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/44118?month=-1 I don't believe the average person in our neck of the woods gets enough sunlight.
So, even if they were making a killing, I would still think that it's a good idea to splurge and buy vitamin d3 in addition to or instead of flu shots, (let alone all the other things vitamin D deficiency may cause). Happens to be that even kosher vitamin d is rather inexpensive. Have any better ideas than supplements? http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-do-i-get-the-vitamin-d-my-body-needs/ They don't...
As far as not absorbing, why not just take with meal http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100507/take-vitamin-d-with-largest-meal (or fish oil)?
Before bashing vitamin D3 supplementing any more, please ask your doctor (after you've tested your vitamin d levels in the winter)
Thanks,
above semi rant, was not to get personal or to bash rather to open your mind (and others as well) to a not publicized issue that pretty much any doctor (in cities that have a real winter) would agree with, especially if asked...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 02, 2014, 02:30:40 PM
I personally don't get much vitamin d from food...
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/features/the-truth-about-vitamin-d-vitamin-d-food-sources
Though we have seen more sun than indicated here http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/44118?month=-1 I don't believe the average person in our neck of the woods gets enough sunlight.
So, even if they were making a killing, I would still think that it's a good idea to splurge and buy vitamin d3 in addition to or instead of flu shots, (let alone all the other things vitamin D deficiency may cause). Happens to be that even kosher vitamin d is rather inexpensive. Have any better ideas than supplements? http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-do-i-get-the-vitamin-d-my-body-needs/ They don't...
As far as not absorbing, why not just take with meal http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100507/take-vitamin-d-with-largest-meal (or fish oil)?
Before bashing vitamin D3 supplementing any more, please ask your doctor (after you've tested your vitamin d levels in the winter)
Thanks,
above semi rant, was not to get personal or to bash rather to open your mind (and others as well) to a not publicized issue that pretty much any doctor (in cities that have a real winter) would agree with, especially if asked...

Argh you missed my point (which was bolded btw)

@Barryg

I find it curious though that the same people (I am not indicating anyone specific from DDF, just a worldly observation) who seem to be the most suspicious of the drug companies (due to their lust for money) have no such reservations about the integrity of the for-profit MVM (multivitamin and mineral) companies.

There are lots of questions about the positive effects of Vitamin D supplements and many of the studies have been inconclusive at best as to their efficacy.

My point is simply that there is an equally large financial interest in the supplement market as there is in the vaccine market. Therefore, why would one trust that supplements promote health (despite real research that it is questionable) while not believing that vaccines promote health (despite not one real research study that can be replicated).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on February 02, 2014, 03:11:48 PM
Argh you missed my point (which was bolded btw)

There are lots of questions about the positive effects of Vitamin D supplements and many of the studies have been inconclusive at best as to their efficacy.

My point is simply that there is an equally large financial interest in the supplement market as there is in the vaccine market. Therefore, why would one trust that supplements promote health (despite real research that it is questionable) while not believing that vaccines promote health (despite not one real research study that can be replicated).
I believe that I addressed the point even if I didn't answer fully, that sometimes in life, we buy things knowing that there is a large profit margin. If Vitamin D3 fell into this category, I would still buy. It happens to be extremely inexpensive (hence, no big financial interest) even in the kosher version...

Once on the subject, would you like to lead me to real research that proves that vitamin D3 supplements aren't good for one who is deficient?
I never said that all vaccines are equal, my main Kashyas on vaccines are flu shot (at least the shot version), chicken pox vaccine, and current schedule of vaccinations. (At least these are the only concerns that I discussed in this thread.)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 03, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
http://www.prweb.com/releases/ASOT/Thimerosal/prweb11598819.htm

Quote
For nearly ten years, Brian Hooker has been requesting documents that are kept under tight wraps by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). His more than 100 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests have resulted in copious evidence that the vaccine preservative Thimerosal, which is still used in the flu shot that is administered to pregnant women and infants, can cause autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders.

Dr. Hooker, a PhD scientist, worked with two members of Congress to craft the letter to the CDC that recently resulted in his obtaining long-awaited data from the CDC, the significance of which is historic. According to Hooker, the data on over 400,000 infants born between 1991 and 1997, which was analyzed by CDC epidemiologist Thomas Verstraeten, MD, “proves unequivocally that in 2000, CDC officials were informed internally of the very high risk of autism, non-organic sleep disorder and speech disorder associated with Thimerosal exposure.”
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on March 03, 2014, 12:04:11 PM
Yawn.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 03, 2014, 12:34:01 PM
Also of note.

Dr Poul Thorsen, who co-authored some of the most frequently cited studies concluding that there is no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, nor between the MMR vaccine and autism is now a wanted fugitive who scammed the CDC out of millions of dollars. Yet, the CDC still relies on this man’s research to make the claim that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 03, 2014, 12:53:41 PM
Also of note.

Dr Poul Thorsen, who co-authored some of the most frequently cited studies concluding that there is no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, nor between the MMR vaccine and autism is now a wanted fugitive who scammed the CDC out of millions of dollars. Yet, the CDC still relies on this man’s research to make the claim that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

He must be pretty smart!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 03, 2014, 03:22:24 PM
Also of note.

Dr Poul Thorsen, who co-authored some of the most frequently cited studies concluding that there is no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, nor between the MMR vaccine and autism is now a wanted fugitive who scammed the CDC out of millions of dollars. Yet, the CDC still relies on this man’s research to make the claim that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
Just want to make sure I got this right... A partial author on a study, stole money from the CDC at least a year after the study in question concluded. Based on this the CDC should stop believing that there is no known link between vaccines and autism. Instead they should rely on Andrew Wakefield, the author of the only known study to provide a link between vaccines and autism. The author who is no longer allowed to practice as a physician because he not only lied about conclusions but falsified data and made up test subjects! Again, just want to make sure I have it straight.

When someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism I will be glad to listen.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: ckmk47 on March 03, 2014, 03:27:33 PM
Just want to make sure I got this right... A partial author on a study, stole money from the CDC at least a year after the study in question concluded. Based on this the CDC should stop believing that there is no known link between vaccines and autism. Instead they should rely on Andrew Wakefield, the author of the only known study to provide a link between vaccines and autism. The author who is no longer allowed to practice as a physician because he not only lied about conclusions but falsified data and made up test subjects! Again, just want to make sure I have it straight.

When someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism I will be glad to listen.
+10
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 03, 2014, 03:59:28 PM
Just want to make sure I got this right... A partial author on a study, stole money from the CDC at least a year after the study in question concluded. Based on this the CDC should stop believing that there is no known link between vaccines and autism. Instead they should rely on Andrew Wakefield, the author of the only known study to provide a link between vaccines and autism. The author who is no longer allowed to practice as a physician because he not only lied about conclusions but falsified data and made up test subjects! Again, just want to make sure I have it straight.

When someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism I will be glad to listen.

Well, it does cast doubt on his honesty, which should raise suspicion that he would also falsify information in a study to get results he thought would give him more credibility or lead to being hired again, etc.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on March 03, 2014, 04:03:53 PM
Also of note.

Dr Poul Thorsen, who co-authored some of the most frequently cited studies concluding that there is no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, nor between the MMR vaccine and autism is now a wanted fugitive who scammed the CDC out of millions of dollars. Yet, the CDC still relies on this man’s research to make the claim that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
 
Lol, now that we have the dictionary definition of ad hominem explained, shall we continue?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 03, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
Lol, now that we have the dictionary definition of ad hominem explained, shall we continue?
You think it's a logical fallacy to question studies coauthored by a man who stole millions from the people who hired him to conduct those studies?

If you had an employee who you hired to conduct research and who then stole millions from you and ran, you would still accept his research without question?  :o
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 03, 2014, 04:44:10 PM
You think it's a logical fallacy to question studies coauthored by a man who stole millions from the people who hired him to conduct those studies?

If you had an employee who you hired to conduct research and who then stole millions from you and ran, you would still accept his research without question?  :o

+millions
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on March 03, 2014, 04:44:55 PM

You think it's a logical fallacy to question studies coauthored by a man who stole millions from the people who hired him to conduct those studies?

If you had an employee who you hired to conduct research and who then stole millions from you and ran, you would still accept his research without question?  :o

Is the guy in question a Daas yuchid?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 03, 2014, 04:45:38 PM
Is the guy in question a Daas yuchid?
True, unlike the other side...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 03, 2014, 05:14:22 PM
Is the guy in question a Daas yuchid?

So let them cite the other researchers. It is weird for them to cite the one who was ripping them off while doing said research.

Do you think anyone still cites Madoff for how the market was doing in the years he was operating? Even if other people say the same thing?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2014, 07:05:56 PM
Its a conspiracy. Autistic people tend to vote republican.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2014, 07:23:06 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-vaccination-campaigns-debunking-myths-may-scaring-wary-parents/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 03, 2014, 11:31:04 PM
Also of note,
The former director of the CDC is now the head of Merck's Vaccine division.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Gerberding



Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2014, 11:40:13 PM
Well, it does cast doubt on his honesty, which should raise suspicion that he would also falsify information in a study to get results he thought would give him more credibility or lead to being hired again, etc.
Not nearly to the extent of someone who falsified his data
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 04, 2014, 10:15:05 AM
Also of note,
The former director of the CDC is now the head of Merck's Vaccine division.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Gerberding

I'm glad the CDC has experts who are also qualified for high level private positions. I'd be much more scared if the former director of the CDC was now a mailman.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 04, 2014, 10:49:04 AM
Also of note,
The former director of the CDC is now the head of Merck's Vaccine division.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Gerberding




If you were hiring a head for your vaccine division would you be able to do much better than someone who has spent years researching vaccines?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 12:01:02 PM
There is nothing else to talk about until
someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism

The only thing I can imagine that you are trying to say is that the CDC is conspiring to keep the public from learning that "vaccines truly cause autism". How is that good for the USA? Do you think Obama didn't have his kids vaccinated? Do you think there is not one medical researcher with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism if it could be as severe as you claim?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 04, 2014, 12:04:31 PM
Do you think there is not one medical researcher with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism if it could be as severe as you claim?

Umm there are quite a few....
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 04, 2014, 12:09:57 PM
There is nothing else to talk about until
The only thing I can imagine that you are trying to say is that the CDC is conspiring to keep the public from learning that "vaccines truly cause autism". How is that good for the USA? Do you think Obama didn't have his kids vaccinated? Do you think there is not one medical researcher with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism if it could be as severe as you claim?

That's unfair.

Even if there would be some increased risk of autism, it is possible that the health benefits would outweigh it anyway.  In which case, it would be very likely that the CDC would want to cover that up to make sure people do get the vaccines, and also would be consistent with Obama's kids being vaccinated (as if you know whether they are).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 04, 2014, 12:12:22 PM
That's unfair.

Even if there would be some increased risk of autism, it is possible that the health benefits would outweigh it anyway.  In which case, it would be very likely that the CDC would want to cover that up to make sure people do get the vaccines, and also would be consistent with Obama's kids being vaccinated (as if you know whether they are).
Shouldn't this be a decision parents get to make? The CDC should be open and say "these are the risks, these are the benefits, decide for yourselves..."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 04, 2014, 12:13:41 PM
Shouldn't this be a decision parents get to make? The CDC should be open and say "these are the risks, these are the benefits, decide for yourselves..."
There aren't any risks.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on March 04, 2014, 12:15:05 PM

Shouldn't this be a decision parents get to make? The CDC should be open and say "these are the risks, these are the benefits, decide for yourselves..."

They do. Your arm may be sore at the spot of injection for a few days.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 04, 2014, 12:18:34 PM
There aren't any risks.
Agreed but Henche was saying that there may be risks but the CDC wants to shield us from them so people would vaccinate anyways.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 04, 2014, 12:21:23 PM
There aren't any risks.
I don't believe the package insert for any vaccine would agree with your comment...
Autism isn't the only risk.


True, unlike the other side...
I've spoken to many on "the other side" that will say things to me, but wouldn't/don't say in public...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 12:23:51 PM
Umm there are quite a few....

I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.

That's unfair.

Even if there would be some increased risk of autism, it is possible that the health benefits would outweigh it anyway.  In which case, it would be very likely that the CDC would want to cover that up to make sure people do get the vaccines, and also would be consistent with Obama's kids being vaccinated (as if you know whether they are).
What's unfair? Yes, the health benefits would likely outweigh the risks if there were a link. However, I still don't believe the risk of the USA not trusting the CDC at all, if "the truth" got out there would be worth the risk of lying and covering it up. Secondly, as I mentioned it would have been discovered by some researcher somewhere and published. You don't honestly believe that everyone is in on the conspiracy, do you?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 12:26:02 PM
There aren't any risks.
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but you gotta stop pulling stuff out of your @$$. You keep saying there are no risks to vaccines. There are risks to everything including vaccines. There are even serious risks. Pretending like there aren't is just feeding into the nutjobs beliefs that there is some grand conspiracy to create an autistic universe.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 04, 2014, 12:27:12 PM
I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.

You misunderstood me, there were quite a few "researchers with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism", they all published their research and found no such causative correlation...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 12:28:37 PM
You misunderstood me, there were quite a few "researchers with a shred of integrity left who would run an experiment to test whether there is a causative correlation between vaccines and autism", they all published their research and found no such causative correlation...

Thanks for clarifying, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 04, 2014, 01:10:07 PM
Thanks for clarifying, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Besides for being on the thread from the beginning, please also try and remember who is biased one way/the other way/ or neutral. This will prevent future misunderstandings. It will also be on the final exam...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 04, 2014, 01:23:23 PM
I've been on this thread since the beginning, I have yet to see one credible, reproducible study linking vaccines with autism. So just go ahead and link them, please.
Did you miss this?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 04, 2014, 01:47:29 PM
Dude, don't take this the wrong way but you gotta stop pulling stuff out of your @$$. You keep saying there are no risks to vaccines. There are risks to everything including vaccines. There are even serious risks. Pretending like there aren't is just feeding into the nutjobs beliefs that there is some grand conspiracy to create an autistic universe.
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 04, 2014, 02:33:32 PM
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.

Why would you say there are no risks, if there are extremely rare severe risks?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 04, 2014, 02:35:24 PM
Why would you say there are no risks, if there are extremely rare severe risks?
There are extremely rare allergic reactions to lots of things. They would not be considered vaccine risks. Just general life risks.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 02:37:44 PM
Dude, Side affects like a sore arm and mild fever are not "risks."
The only severe "risks" to vaccines are severe allergic reactions that are extremely rare. I understand that you want to be reasonable by recognizing the "other side." Realize that they are kooks who usually have personal circumstances that need to blame on the evil doctors. There is no room for an intelligent discussion.

Allergic reactions (such as anaphylactic shock) are not the only reactions possible from vaccines. There are others, and all are well documented as would be expected for side effects from medications that have been given on a wide scale for decades. Whatever the case, I will not do what others may try and pretend that vaccines are either the perfect cure nor the modern Satan. They are an excellent advance in medicine - by far the finest in terms of lives saved - in the 20th century.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 04, 2014, 02:42:50 PM
Allergic reactions (such as anaphylactic shock) are not the only reactions possible from vaccines. There are others, and all are well documented as would be expected for side effects from medications that have been given on a wide scale for decades. Whatever the case, I will not do what others may try and pretend that vaccines are either the perfect cure nor the modern Satan. They are an excellent advance in medicine - by far the finest in terms of lives saved - in the 20th century.

+1, precisely.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 04, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
Did you miss this?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419

No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 05, 2014, 12:30:16 PM
No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 05, 2014, 12:34:32 PM
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.

Surely there must be more than just correlation.

(http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/correlation-causation.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 05, 2014, 12:52:45 PM
Good stuff
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 05, 2014, 12:55:51 PM
Surely there must be more than just correlation.


Like this one? (http://xkcd.com/925/)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 05, 2014, 01:02:12 PM
Surely there must be more than just correlation.

(http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/correlation-causation.jpg)
I'm not sure if you're making an actual comment in response to mine, or simply taking the opportunity to post a funny pic.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 05, 2014, 01:03:43 PM
I'm not sure if you're making an actual comment in response to mine, or simply taking the opportunity to post a funny pic.

I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 05, 2014, 01:04:55 PM
This is not a comment on vaccines per se, just on the underlying logic you appear to be employing. You're making it sound like the bar for a 'link' to be taken seriously is that you need to prove causation. Even correlation is enough to begin a discussion of weighing benefits and risks. Correlation implies a potential risk, which should still be factored into the discussion, albeit with less weight than causation would.
You would be correct if no studies were done to weigh the association between vaccines and autism. However, these studies have been done tens of times. They continuously reflect the "conventional medical wisdom" that vaccines do not lead to autism.

If there were a breakthrough study showing any sort of real concern that vaccines are actually linked to autism, there would be 10 copycat studies to test it within a year. In addition as I mentioned the study that has the greatest potential appears seriously flawed.

In conclusion, causation is smoke but that doesn't mean that my BBQ is the source of the fire. Especially when I'm looking at my BBQ and it isn't even on!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 05, 2014, 01:18:41 PM
I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.

Well there is theory in this case. I do believe it is reasonable to consider whether vaccines has a link to autism. There is no benefit to being blind to the possibility. However, the research has been done already, there is no known link between vaccines and autism and no reason to suspect one based on the research.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 05, 2014, 01:28:56 PM
You would be correct if no studies were done to weigh the causative relationship between vaccines and autism. However, these studies have been done tens of times. They continuously reflect the "conventional medical wisdom" that vaccines do not lead to autism.

If there were a breakthrough study showing any sort of real concern that vaccines are actually linked to autism, there would be 10 copycat studies to test it within a year. In addition as I mentioned the study that has the greatest potential appears seriously flawed.

In conclusion, causation is smoke but that doesn't mean that my BBQ is the source of the fire. Especially when I'm looking at my BBQ and it isn't even on!
What studies are you referring to? It would be basically impossible to prove that even a partial causative relationship does not exist. Short of actually truly understanding autism on a genetic/molecular/[fill in other potential fields that may help explain autism], the only way to prove that would be to demonstrate that no child that was vaccinated ever had autism, which is obviously not the case. You can suggest more logical causative effects, and explain any potential correlation between vaccines and autism via the other causes, or even show that the correlation is insignificant.

I'm saying that pure correlation should not lead to any conclusions at all. You should only even wonder about conclusions if there is also some theory.
As YD mentioned, theory is not the issue. How strongly you weigh a correlation when causation hasn't been demonstrated will hinge on the strength of the correlation (and associated theory) and the severity of the risk involved.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 05, 2014, 01:46:32 PM
What studies are you referring to? It would be basically impossible to prove that even a partial causative relationship does not exist. Short of actually truly understanding autism on a genetic/molecular/[fill in other potential fields that may help explain autism], the only way to prove that would be to demonstrate that no child that was vaccinated ever had autism, which is obviously not the case. You can suggest more logical causative effects, and explain any potential correlation between vaccines and autism via the other causes, or even show that the correlation is insignificant.
I have edited my OP to reflect "association" instead of "causation".

There are many theories as to what causes autism. It is likely a genetic predisposition in certain ppl together with some environmental trigger. This could be tylenol use, cell phone radiation or any # of thousands of things that have become more commonplace than they were prior to the "outbreak" of autism. Can it be vaccines? Sure, it's a reasonable guess. However as I mentioned this has never been proven. In fact it has very rarely been shown to have any correlation, and none of these have ever been reproducible.

How strongly you weigh a correlation when causation hasn't been demonstrated will hinge on the strength of the correlation (and associated theory) and the severity of the risk involved.
The key here is what I bolded in your quote. While you are trying to say the severity of autism, I argue (together with 99% of the medical community) that the severity of the supposed association must be weighed against the severity of not using vaccines and allowing these life-threatening diseases to become commonplace again. Without any good data, do oyu really want to take that chance?

I will say again,
When someone responds with any decent answer regarding Fakefield or with an actual peer-reviewed article connecting modern vaccines with autism I will be glad to listen.

It is fine to discuss the possibility of correlation, but it is a very dangerous game to play to stop vaccines without very solid studies first.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 05, 2014, 04:54:04 PM
I have edited my OP to reflect "association" instead of "causation".

There are many theories as to what causes autism. It is likely a genetic predisposition in certain ppl together with some environmental trigger. This could be tylenol use, cell phone radiation or any # of thousands of things that have become more commonplace than they were prior to the "outbreak" of autism. Can it be vaccines? Sure, it's a reasonable guess. However as I mentioned this has never been proven. In fact it has very rarely been shown to have any correlation, and none of these have ever been reproducible.
The key here is what I bolded in your quote. While you are trying to say the severity of autism, I argue (together with 99% of the medical community) that the severity of the supposed association must be weighed against the severity of not using vaccines and allowing these life-threatening diseases to become commonplace again. Without any good data, do oyu really want to take that chance?

I will say again,
It is fine to discuss the possibility of correlation, but it is a very dangerous game to play to stop vaccines without very solid studies first.
You misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that people not get vaccinated, especially not because of the possible connection to autism. I'm just pointing out that you mentioned several times that the 'research' linking vaccines and autism only shows correlation if even that, as if correlation is irrelevant and doesn't warrant further discussion.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 05, 2014, 05:20:33 PM
You misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that people not get vaccinated, especially not because of the possible connection to autism. I'm just pointing out that you mentioned several times that the 'research' linking vaccines and autism only shows correlation if even that, as if correlation is irrelevant and doesn't warrant further discussion.
Yup, you made a good point. I did not mean to disregard the idea of correlation. I think I explained my position better in my post just above.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 05, 2014, 07:04:42 PM
Yup, you made a good point. I did not mean to disregard the idea of correlation. I think I explained my position better in my post just above.
And I agree with it  ;D
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 05, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.

1) You quoted 11 articles, that I must assume you did not actually read through. Either you found them linked on some website or you did a Google search or the like. Regardless, you present them so I will respond.

2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.

3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
AFAIK it is still used in Flu vaccines (funny since that's where this thread started...)
Once you mentioned the Mercury phase out, I was bothered by a Q - if Mercury is harmless, why did they take it out of the vaccines?
Q2 once they took it out what did they replace it with (like Coke vs Diet Coke). I found this ebook, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Aluminum_in_Vaccines.pdf but I'm sure you'll point out that it wasn't written by an MD...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 05, 2014, 10:43:06 PM

Once you mentioned the Mercury phase out, I was bothered by a Q - if Mercury is harmless, why did they take it out of the vaccines?


Because it didn't cause autism, and that is the whole point of vaccines.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 05, 2014, 10:46:30 PM
Where's the :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 08, 2014, 10:23:54 PM
Dr ilenberg really should retire.

Another family, all four kids have the flu thanks to him. ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on March 21, 2014, 12:06:38 PM
http://cheezburger.com/220421

Good tweets to read.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 21, 2014, 12:51:49 PM
I found this ebook, http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Aluminum_in_Vaccines.pdf but I'm sure you'll point out that it wasn't written by an MD...
I have been meaning to respond to this for a while, just wanted to read it more thoroughly and I've gotten busy with my (other) real life. The problem with books such as this is that they are no better then our discussion on here. They are written with a very clear agenda in mind without the ability for it to be critiqued or tested. He writes deliberately misleading and sometimes false information (you can google for responsa to his book, they exist in troves).

It is very easy to convince people who have no intrinsic knowledge of a subject either way you'd like. I know enough to recognize that when weighing the pros and cons of this discussion, I can rely on the ethics and selfishness of enough knowledgeable doctors and researchers out there that if there were any serious concerns they would researched and printed. I also know that these diseases are too horrible to imagine happening to anyone that I care about.

I have hesitated to post this until now, but I cannot withhold it any longer
. This is known to be caused without a doubt by pertussis. It was also almost entirely eradicated as a direct result of the vaccine. I do not know whether vaccines have any unknown terrible side effects. I do know that many have been researched ad nauseam and no serious link has ever connected vaccines with any consistently serious side effects (that are anywhere comparable to the diseases they cure). Therefore I choose life. For me it's an easy choice. For others with more concerns it should be an easy choice of the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 21, 2014, 12:57:22 PM
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 21, 2014, 01:01:16 PM
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.

You're like the guy dating two girls at once...Trying to figure out which one will be the "winner". Put yourself out there and pick a team.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 21, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
I have been meaning to respond to this for a while, just wanted to read it more thoroughly and I've gotten busy with my (other) real life. The problem with books such as this is that they are no better then our discussion on here. They are written with a very clear agenda in mind without the ability for it to be critiqued or tested. He writes deliberately misleading and sometimes false information (you can google for responsa to his book, they exist in troves).

It is very easy to convince people who have no intrinsic knowledge of a subject either way you'd like. I know enough to recognize that when weighing the pros and cons of this discussion, I can rely on the ethics and selfishness of enough knowledgeable doctors and researchers out there that if there were any serious concerns they would researched and printed. I also know that these diseases are too horrible to imagine happening to anyone that I care about.

I have hesitated to post this until now, but I cannot withhold it any longer
. This is known to be caused without a doubt by pertussis. It was also almost entirely eradicated as a direct result of the vaccine. I do not know whether vaccines have any unknown terrible side effects. I do know that many have been researched ad nauseam and no serious link has ever connected vaccines with any consistently serious side effects (that are anywhere comparable to the diseases they cure). Therefore I choose life. For me it's an easy choice. For others with more concerns it should be an easy choice of the lesser of two evils.
So if my choice is either all or nothing, you make very good points (and even before this discussion, without hearing any of your points) I'd pick all.
However, there are many choices in between, for example: Get vaccinated including DTaP, but not necessarily on reg schedule, exclude vaccines for flu and chicken pox, never do the early unnecessary ones or early or multiple shots at once... This would still not spread whooping couch (or mumps).
I'm not saying that it isn't a two sided argument with valid points on both sides, in between all or nothing. From my minimal knowledge on the subject, however, I am saying that I'd pick all over nothing, if those were the only two choices. However, there's a middle ground, and therefore, each shot is it's own decision...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 21, 2014, 01:08:19 PM
Ah, my favorite ddf thread is bumped again.
lol, my least favorite... :-(
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on March 21, 2014, 01:21:24 PM
You're like the guy dating two girls at once...Trying to figure out which one will be the "winner". Put yourself out there and pick a team.
Um, more like a lawyer, but ya....
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 21, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
Thanks @yankdoodle, I was going to post pics from someone I know babies levaya.... It would show the results of irresponsible action, but I felt it would be in bad taste.

(Died from, newly introduced (-thanks to the nuts) whooping cough.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 21, 2014, 01:26:43 PM
So if my choice is either all or nothing, you make very good points (and even before this discussion, without hearing any of your points) I'd pick all.
However, there are many choices in between, for example: Get vaccinated including DTaP, but not necessarily on reg schedule, exclude vaccines for flu and chicken pox, never do the early unnecessary ones or early or multiple shots at once... This would still not spread whooping couch (or mumps).
I'm not saying that it isn't a two sided argument with valid points on both sides, in between all or nothing. From my minimal knowledge on the subject, however, I am saying that I'd pick all over nothing, if those were the only two choices. However, there's a middle ground, and therefore, each shot is it's own decision...
We've rehashed this before, and I actually agree with you completely. I see no problem in making decisions about each vaccine on its own merit as well as schedule. I refused to let them give me daughter a HBV vaccine in the hospital (as they do for almost all patients, whether they know it or not) because I know that my wife and I are not promiscuous. I made sure she got it at some later point in time, when she was more likely to come in contact with people who may be infected with HBV. Gotta use your head, absolutely.

Thanks @yankdoodle, I was going to post pics from someone I know babies levaya.... It would show the results of irresponsible action, but I felt it would be in bad taste.
(Died from, newly introduced (-thanks to the nuts) whooping cough.
I've got no problem with you Barryg, but before Jaywhy or anyone other anti-vaccine people post again watch the video I posted just prior and then make a decision.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 21, 2014, 01:30:10 PM
Um, more like a lawyer, but ya....
He's like a lawyer that dates two girls at once?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 21, 2014, 02:59:00 PM
You're like the guy dating two girls at once...Trying to figure out which one will be the "winner". Put yourself out there and pick a team.

I'm picking both.

I think the pro-vacciners are clearly correct, but they overstate their argument.

I think in doing so, they hurt their own cause by giving the other side ammunition, since they can clearly see they are being lied to.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 21, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
I'm picking both.

I think the pro-vacciners are clearly correct, but they overstate their argument.

I think in doing so, they hurt their own cause by giving the other side ammunition, since they can clearly see they are being lied to.
which part of the argument is overstated. What's the "lie"?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 21, 2014, 04:14:25 PM
which part of the argument is overstated. What's the "lie"?

We've been over this.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 21, 2014, 04:21:37 PM
We've been over this.
This is DDF, lets do it again!  :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 21, 2014, 04:31:32 PM
This is DDF, lets do it again!  :P

churnbabychurn!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 21, 2014, 05:04:15 PM
I'm picking both.

I think the pro-vacciners are clearly correct, but they overstate their argument.

I think in doing so, they hurt their own cause by giving the other side ammunition, since they can clearly see they are being lied to.
Wow, was that a serious comment from henche? I'm impressed! Yes, agreed. I feel like 90% of active members on this thread are on a similar page.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: LeeW on March 22, 2014, 09:39:55 PM
http://jennymccarthybodycount.com
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 22, 2014, 09:46:33 PM
http://jennymccarthybodycount.com

There's a bill board near my house that claims 40k americans were killed by assault rifles in the past year.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 22, 2014, 11:31:43 PM
There's a bill board near my house that claims 40k americans were killed by assault rifles in the past year.
Your point being?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 23, 2014, 12:35:37 AM
Your point being?

That you shouldn't believe numbers provided to you by people with an agenda.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: LeeW on March 23, 2014, 11:29:02 PM
That you shouldn't believe numbers provided to you by people with an agenda.

If you click the bill board, does it give a source for every death like this web site does? Hmm? Didn't think so. ..

Click around the site abit. I didn't link it here intending to end all argument about vaccines. Those that don't want to be cured will never be convinced.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 24, 2014, 12:28:59 AM
http://jennymccarthybodycount.com
As one of the links in this link is the current vaccine schedule, I am curious if... Anyone know why no vaccines between ages 5-10? (As 61% of ppl polled here so far don't get flu vax yearly - the current schedule has none for 6 years straight.)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 24, 2014, 06:29:33 AM
As one of the links in this link is the current vaccine schedule, I am curious if... Anyone know why no vaccines between ages 5-10? (As 61% of ppl polled here so far don't get flu vax yearly - the current schedule has none for 6 years straight.)
Generally the vaccines are given at the earliest time that it is considered safe and effective in order to prevent the risk of contracting a given disease. Once that is the case, there is no need for further vaccination until the originals start to where off and a booster is needed. Not sure what the connection is with the flu vaccine you reference as we've established they are very different examples.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 24, 2014, 08:01:13 AM
If you click the bill board, does it give a source for every death like this web site does? Hmm? Didn't think so. ..

Click around the site abit. I didn't link it here intending to end all argument about vaccines. Those that don't want to be cured will never be convinced.

No, but my billboard people probably do make silly assumptions like assuming that every reported case of someone dying from the flu would have been prevented by the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2014, 01:32:05 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/do-you-vaccinate-your-children,35603/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on March 26, 2014, 09:53:17 PM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/03/effective_messages_in_vaccine_promotion_when_it_comes_to_anti_vaxxers_there.html
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2014, 10:06:37 PM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/03/effective_messages_in_vaccine_promotion_when_it_comes_to_anti_vaxxers_there.html
Quote
According to a New Study, Nothing Can Change an Anti-Vaxxer’s Mind
Brilliant! Someone just discovered America!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2014, 10:15:35 PM
Yep, the states should impose stiff fines on them. Nothing else's working.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Naphtali on March 26, 2014, 10:38:00 PM
Can any one offer a thorough Halachic view on vaccines??
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: ckmk47 on March 26, 2014, 10:45:49 PM
Ushmartem es nafshosaichem  ?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2014, 10:48:10 PM
Can any one offer a thorough Halachic view on vaccines??
been discussed.

The consensus is that when the majority of the world does something, even if there is a possibility of risk, the concept of shomer pesoim hashem applies.
Rav eliyashuv has said that one who doesn't vaccinate his children is mazik es horabim.
On yom Kippur we listen to the majority of doctors, here is no different.


Speak to a reliable halachic opinion.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Naphtali on March 26, 2014, 11:46:02 PM
been discussed.

The consensus is that when the majority of the world does something, even if there is a possibility of risk, the concept of shomer pesoim hashem applies.
Rav eliyashuv has said that one who doesn't vaccinate his children is mazik es horabim.
On yom Kippur we listen to the majority of doctors, here is no different.


Speak to a reliable halachic opinion.

Does this apply to every single vaccine that they add to the list?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 26, 2014, 11:52:40 PM
Does this apply to every single vaccine that they add to the list?

Does it include HPV?

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 27, 2014, 01:41:12 AM
Can any one offer a thorough Halachic view on vaccines??
Not a simple Q...
been discussed.

The consensus is that when the majority of the world does something, even if there is a possibility of risk, the concept of shomer pesoim hashem applies.
Rav eliyashuv has said that one who doesn't vaccinate his children is mazik es horabim.
On yom Kippur we listen to the majority of doctors, here is no different.


Speak to a reliable halachic opinion.
I did, but I was not told exactly what you posted above.
Does this apply to every single vaccine that they add to the list?
The problem is that not every reliable halachic opinion has a reliable opinion of their own on the subject of vaccines. They will, therefore, most likely side with the majority of the world (or speak with a doctor or two from their congregation, who most likely will side with the majority of the world). If the same Rav would have 9 (pro-vaccine) doctors give their opinion, and also listen to the 1 (let's say a DO), but the Rav would actually know that there were two valid sides in the discussion - there would very likely be a different answer, now that the Rav can have a thought out opinion on the subject.
Also, let's say someone had asked Rav Elyashiv an all or nothing Shayla. (I never heard or saw Tshuva from him, I'm going off what churnbabychurn said.) "Am I a responsible parent if I never give my child a vaccine, period. None, never, under no circumstance. I read an article that they might cause autism..." Now, I'd hope, any Rav would ________ and tell him, ushmartem me'od l'nafshosechem.
If, someone asked a Rav "Am I a responsible parent, if I have some concerns with vaccines after doing much research, speaking with many professionals on the subject and coming to the following compromise. I'd prefer not to give some vaccines which some doctors say are unnecessary (like flu, chicken pox, and hep b at birth), I'd also prefer not to give 22 vaccines to my baby before age 1, so I'd want to postpone certain vaccines - which the diseases are pretty much eradicated - until later (ex after age 5 when there is nothing on the schedule). Not so sure the Rav will say that you are "mazik es harabim"
Does this apply to every single vaccine that they add to the list?
+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2014, 01:47:24 AM
It's very bad this year. Some young people died from it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 27, 2014, 01:49:48 AM
It's very bad this year. Some young people died from it.
Are you referring to being low in Vitamin D?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2014, 01:57:28 AM
Are you referring to being low in Vitamin D?
I'm referring to people in their 50's dying from the flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 27, 2014, 02:00:05 AM
I'm referring to people in their 50's dying from the flu.
Sorry to hear...
How many people?
Do you know how their vitamin D levels were, before they got the flu (and do you know if they got a flu shot)?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2014, 02:04:57 AM
Sorry to hear...
How many people?
Do you know how their vitamin D levels were, before they got the flu (and do you know if they got a flu shot)?
I don't know all details, but it's very bad in the New York area.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 27, 2014, 09:21:00 AM
Not a simple Q...I did, but I was not told exactly what you posted above.The problem is that not every reliable halachic opinion has a reliable opinion of their own on the subject of vaccines. They will, therefore, most likely side with the majority of the world (or speak with a doctor or two from their congregation, who most likely will side with the majority of the world). If the same Rav would have 9 (pro-vaccine) doctors give their opinion, and also listen to the 1 (let's say a DO), but the Rav would actually know that there were two valid sides in the discussion - there would very likely be a different answer, now that the Rav can have a thought out opinion on the subject.
Also, let's say someone had asked Rav Elyashiv an all or nothing Shayla. (I never heard or saw Tshuva from him, I'm going off what churnbabychurn said.) "Am I a responsible parent if I never give my child a vaccine, period. None, never, under no circumstance. I read an article that they might cause autism..." Now, I'd hope, any Rav would ________ and tell him, ushmartem me'od l'nafshosechem.
If, someone asked a Rav "Am I a responsible parent, if I have some concerns with vaccines after doing much research, speaking with many professionals on the subject and coming to the following compromise. I'd prefer not to give some vaccines which some doctors say are unnecessary (like flu, chicken pox, and hep b at birth), I'd also prefer not to give 22 vaccines to my baby before age 1, so I'd want to postpone certain vaccines - which the diseases are pretty much eradicated - until later (ex after age 5 when there is nothing on the schedule). Not so sure the Rav will say that you are "mazik es harabim"+1
-1

There are very clear halachic precedences about which doctors opinions one must halachically follow. Rabbonim have been dealing with medical shailos for thousands of years. The halacha is that one must follow the orders of the vast majority of doctors.

There are also very clear halachic guidelines regarding what level of risk one may accept re the mitzva of venishmartem. This applies to ones choice of career and which medicine to take. The Halacha is that a Hezek sheino matzui, shkevar doshu bo rabbim is not considered a risk.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2014, 09:27:23 AM
Can any one offer a thorough Halachic view on vaccines??
For anyone looking for the Chabad angle here are 2 letters from The Rebbe:

Quote from: Igros Kodesh, Vol. 14, p. 357
... Regarding your question about vaccination against disease:

I am surprised by your question, since so many individuals from Eretz Yisrael have asked me about this and I have answered them in the affirmative, since the overwhelming majority of individuals do so successfully.

Understandably, if there are vaccines that are produced by various drug-manufacturing companies, you should use the ones whose safety is tried and proven.

Quote from: Igros Kodesh, Vol. 14, p. 343
... Regarding your question about vaccination against disease and that which unfortunately transpired in the United States some time back:

The event that occurred in the United States was at the beginning of the use of these vaccines, before the [exact] medical compound was definitively established. This is not the case at present after months of experience with the vaccine.

Therefore once a vaccine's reliability is firmly established, there should be no hesitation in giving these inoculations. To the contrary, [their use should be encouraged].
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 09:43:04 AM
For anyone looking for the Chabad angle here are 2 letters from The Rebbe:

Thanks for sharing this! Couldn't agree more (not that the Rebbe needed my agreement).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2014, 10:05:04 AM
For anyone looking for the Chabad angle here are 2 letters from The Rebbe:
Brilliant words of wisdom from the rebbe.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 27, 2014, 12:01:09 PM
Ok, how many of the people on this thread gave their daughters the HPV vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on March 27, 2014, 12:03:00 PM
@ Achas Veachas
Would you be able to quote the question that was asked to the Rebbe as well. Thanks...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2014, 12:13:15 PM
@ Achas Veachas
Would you be able to quote the question that was asked to the Rebbe as well. Thanks...
No, the letters in Igros Kodesh are just the letters The Rebbe wrote without the questions people sent in (those were destroyed for privacy concerns), but being that you asked I decided to look up the original letter in the Igros Kodesh and found it to be much stroger then the quote I brought so here is the letter in full:
Quote from: אגרות קודש חלק י"ד אגרת ה'קל"א
ב"ה, ח"י שבט, תשי"ז

ברוקלין.

שלום וברכה!

מאשר הנני קבלת מכתבו מי"א שבט (והקודמו) וממהר הנני לענות עליו שלא בתור אפילו של מכתבים התכופים מפני ענין הזריקות לחיסון, אף שלפלא שאלתו בזה שהרי כמה מאה"ק כבר שאלוני ועניתי להם בחיוב כיון שכאן עושים זה רובם ככולם ובהצלחה, ומובן שבאם ישנם זריקות מתוצרת בתי סממני רפואה שונים צריך להשתמש בזו הבדוקה ומנוסה.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 12:42:05 PM
Ok, how many of the people on this thread gave their daughters the HPV vaccine?
Weak comparison.
1. It's "relatively" new
2. The disease is able to treated through other methods (regular Pap smear)
3. the risk of cancer is (generally) a slow onset.
4. With all that said, if anyone had any serious concern that their daughter is being promiscuous, I would strongly recommend it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 27, 2014, 12:43:26 PM
Weak comparison.
1. It's "relatively" new
2. The disease is able to treated through other methods (regular Pap smear)
3. the risk of cancer is (generally) a slow onset.
4. With all that said, if anyone had any serious concern that their daughter is being promiscuous, I would strongly recommend it.

1. CDC, AMA, everyone, recommend it. Are you telling me you know better? That you have inside information that is personal to you?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 12:46:12 PM
but being that you asked I decided to look up the original letter in the Igros Kodesh and found it to be much stroger then the quote I brought
The Rebbe was not naive, he understood the idea of side effects and medicine better than most. Despite that, in 1957 he recognized the importance of vaccines! I would venture to say that most people who lived through that time period and had seen the horrors of these diseases would have a similar opinion.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 12:50:14 PM
1. CDC, AMA, everyone, recommend it. Are you telling me you know better? That you have inside information that is personal to you?
Yes, I do know better. I know how to use my brain. I didn't get it for my daughter the same way I didn't give her a Hep B vaccine in the hospital. When you understand the risks involved and how diseases can be contracted you can make educated decisions. Unfortunately the large majority of Americans are not like that and the authorities understand that and do the best they can. for most people who are going to have multiple sexual partners it is a great vaccine. Statistically it has not proven to be far better then the pap smear yet (but again it is still a young vaccine and they are determining the need for boosters etc).  Most people cannot be trusted to get annual pap smears so again the CDC has no choice but to try to push people towards the vaccine which is the best decision for most people!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 27, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
Yes, I do know better. I know how to use my brain. I didn't get it for my daughter the same way I didn't give her a Hep B vaccine in the hospital. When you understand the risks involved and how diseases can be contracted you can make educated decisions. Unfortunately the large majority of Americans are not like that and the authorities understand that and do the best they can. for most people who are going to have multiple sexual partners it is a great vaccine. Statistically it has not proven to be far better then the pap smear yet (but again it is still a young vaccine and they are determining the need for boosters etc).  Most people cannot be trusted to get annual pap smears so again the CDC has no choice but to try to push people towards the vaccine which is the best decision for most people!

Why? its free with insurance. And there are no risks.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 01:01:47 PM
Why? its free with insurance. And there are no risks.

Nothing in life is free...

I never said there are no risks and I doubt anyone respectable said that either. There are always risks.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 27, 2014, 01:03:36 PM
Nothing in life is free...

I never said there are no risks and I doubt anyone respectable said that either. There are always risks.

They say that all the time. It's been linked in this thread
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 01:52:41 PM
They say that all the time. It's been linked in this thread
That there is absolutely no risk? Come on. No one believes that you get a shot of a foreign substance in your arm and there is absolutely no risk. There is always the very uncommon risk of anaphylactic shock if nothing else.

I've made this point multiple times before. Just gotta use some common sense sometimes.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 27, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
That there is absolutely no risk? Come on. No one believes that you get a shot of a foreign substance in your arm and there is absolutely no risk. There is always the very uncommon risk of anaphylactic shock if nothing else.

I've made this point multiple times before. Just gotta use some common sense sometimes.
I do! Risk of allergic reaction is not classified as a vaccine risk. Its a general risk of life.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 27, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
That there is absolutely no risk? Come on. No one believes that you get a shot of a foreign substance in your arm and there is absolutely no risk. There is always the very uncommon risk of anaphylactic shock if nothing else.

I've made this point multiple times before. Just gotta use some common sense sometimes.

But the NYC Department of health disagrees and says there is "no risk"
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 27, 2014, 10:09:27 PM
But the NYC Department of health disagrees and says there is "no risk"
where does it say that? From what I could find, they put a link to CDC in the site http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/hpv/vac-faqs.htm which clearly discusses the potential (albeit minor) known risks of the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 30, 2014, 08:50:32 PM
Can any one offer a thorough Halachic view on vaccines??
By a fellow DDFer...

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: bigmoish on March 31, 2014, 10:57:03 AM
Did anyone see the add  offering nice $ to find a Doctor ready to debate Anti vaccine MD
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 12:29:13 PM
Did anyone see the add  offering nice $ to find a Doctor ready to debate Anti vaccine MD
It's stupid. These concepts are too challenging for an audience to follow and determine a winner based on actual facts. Studies cannot be thrown at each other for analysis during the debate, they need to be studied and picked apart long before. Whoever is the better (more convincing) speaker will win every time.

@ThinkTwice This was discussed a couple of pages back. If you want to rehash this conversation first look there and respond in kind.

Since when is NYC a source of truth, the claim bris milah is unsafe but immoralty should be protected with the $ the collect from our tickets/fines
Wow, that's a lot of concepts jumbles together. I was simply responding to a statement by Henche (implying that the govt. is tricking everybody) that govt. websites claim vaccines are 100% safe which is untrue.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on March 31, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
It's stupid. These concepts are too challenging for an audience to follow and determine a winner based on actual facts. Studies cannot be thrown at each other for analysis during the debate, they need to be studied and picked apart long before. Whoever is the better (more convincing) speaker will win every time.

@ThinkTwice This was discussed a couple of pages back. If you want to rehash this conversation first look there and respond in kind.
Wow, that's a lot of concepts jumbles together. I was simply responding to a statement by Henche that govt. websites claim vaccines are 100% safe which is untrue.
+100
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 31, 2014, 12:43:57 PM
#Yankedoodle, you keep implying that vaccines are not 100% safe. Can you please share one reasonably proven risk of vaccines besides for an allergic reaction?
TIA!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 31, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
By a fellow DDFer...

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha

A story from one of the comments:
Quote
Here's a story I heard from Rabb Gluckowsky in Israel which relates to the question of Western vs. Alternative medicine.
A young man in Rechovot, Israel, had a growth on his face. The doctors confirmed that it was cancerous and insisted that it be surgically removed. He went to an alternative healer who said that he could treat it with medicinal creams. But despite the fact that he started using the creams, the tumor continued to grow. The healer said that the continued growth was a sign that the illness was coming out of his body, and that he would soon be healed. The doctors said that if he didn't cut it out, he would die.
Upon the insistence of the young man's wife, Rabbi Gluckowsky got involved and prevailed upon the young man to write to the Rebbe for advice. The young man agreed to follow the Rebbe's instructions, whatever they would be.
The Rebbe's response was that they should seek the counsel of an established halachic authority (k'atzat moreh hora'ah muvhak). After thinking the response through, they decided to consult with Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, of blessed memory, a world-renowned halachic expert who specialized in halachic questions relating to medical matters. They spoke to Rabbi Auerbach and presented the two options of treatment.
Rabbi Auerbach said that generally the Torah allows one to choose which form of treatment one wishes to use. However, when it is a life or death matter, and the two forms of treatment are mutually exclusive, then the Torah gives primacy to the form of treatment that is used by a majority of people (in accordance with the principle of acharei rabim lehatot – follow the majority), which today would mean Western medicine.As he had agreed he would, the patient accepted this decision and had the growth surgically removed. After this, the doctors recommended a course of radiation to ensure that the cancer would not spread.
On the Motzay Shabbos before his last treatment, Rabbi Gluckowsky and the young man went together to the Western Wall to thank Hashem for healing him. There they saw Rabbi Auerbach. They approached him and thanked him for his counsel, and told him that there was only one radiation treatment left and then the patient would be considered healed.
Rabbi Auerbach, who generally never acted with any airs of being a rebbe or tzaddik, took the young man's hand in his two hands and said, "Men darf nisht, men darf nisht" (it's not necessary, it's not necessary). And indeed it wasn't.
Aryeh Citron
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 01:01:01 PM
#Yankedoodle, you keep implying that vaccines are not 100% safe. Can you please share one reasonably proven risk of vaccines besides for an allergic reaction?
TIA!
Here is a sample of side effects from MMR vaccine. From: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr
Mild Problems
    Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
    Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
    Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
Moderate Problems
    Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
    Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
    Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
    Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
    Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
    Deafness
    Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
    Permanent brain damage
    These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

There is also a small risk of anaphylaxis. These by no means outweigh the risk of not vaccinating, but to pretend that there is zero chance of any reaction (i.e. 100% safe) is untrue and enhances the belief that we (medical community) are part of an elaborate cover-up.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 01:03:51 PM
A story from one of the comments:
Beautiful story, not sure I follow the ending though.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 31, 2014, 02:37:13 PM
The mild and moderate categories are temporary discomforts and would not be classified as a "risk"- fever is not "Risky". Its just uncomfortable.
The severe problems are basically just an allergic reaction.

In other words: No Risks. AKA 100% safe. Thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 02:43:06 PM
The mild and moderate categories are temporary discomforts and would not be classified as a "risk"- fever is not "Risky". Its just uncomfortable.
The severe problems are basically just an allergic reaction.

In other words: No Risks. AKA 100% safe. Thank you.
I'm not gonna have a discussion if there's nobody home. Low platelets and seizures are not simply temporary discomforts. They are potentially very dangerous (as unlikely as it may be it still constitutes a risk that people have a right to know about). A chance of deafness or permanent brain damage don't mean anything to you. The point is you are injecting yourself with a foreign body. It is for a very good cause (much like surgery to remove a tumor is a good cause) but it still has it's share of risks. Anything can happen.

Oh and why do you consider anaphylaxis to be no big deal? Have you ever seen it or been affected? I can't believe you are making me argue the risks of vaccines (which I consider one of the most important breakthroughs in modern medicine).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 31, 2014, 02:51:44 PM
The mild and moderate categories are temporary discomforts and would not be classified as a "risk"- fever is not "Risky". Its just uncomfortable.
The severe problems are basically just an allergic reaction.

In other words: No Risks. AKA 100% safe. Thank you.
The fact that you are arguing that vaccines are safer than the CDC says they are is so sad that it almost becomes absurdly hilarious.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 02:53:21 PM
The fact that you are arguing that vaccines are safer than the CDC says they are is so sad that it almost becomes absurdly hilarious.
+1 first thing we've agreed on all thread!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on March 31, 2014, 03:54:23 PM
+1 first thing we've agreed on all thread!
Lol, true.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 31, 2014, 04:19:05 PM
Seizures carry a risk of complications like banging a head. Banging your head carries a risk of concussion. Concussion is risky cuz it can cause brain damage.
The risk of seizures comes from the risk of a prolonged high fever which is a risk of the MMR vaccine.
The MMR vaccine is very risky indeed.

I've heard that wearing a tinfoil hat can reduce the risk of the common cold which carries the risk of fever, which carries the risk of seizures which carry the risk of brain damage.

Also never eat anything new, you may be extremely allergic. Don't give kids fish, peanut butter, nuts etc. They all carry the risk of analapxic shock!


You are not comprehending the difference btwn mild side effects and risk.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on March 31, 2014, 04:36:16 PM
You are not comprehending the difference btwn mild side effects and risk.
What's actually happening is that you are creating a very narrow definition of the work risk, despite that not being the common (or medical) usage of the term.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 31, 2014, 06:36:39 PM
What's actually happening is that you are creating a very narrow definition of the work risk, despite that not being the common (or medical) usage of the term.
Well put.

Seizures carry a risk of complications like banging a head. Banging your head carries a risk of concussion. Concussion is risky cuz it can cause brain damage.

I've heard that wearing a tinfoil hat can reduce the risk of the common cold which carries the risk of fever, which carries the risk of seizures which carry the risk of brain damage.

Also never eat anything new, you may be extremely allergic. Don't give kids fish, peanut butter, nuts etc. They all carry the risk of analapxic shock!

You are not comprehending the difference btwn mild side effects and risk.
1. I don't think it's unreasonable to for someone to hesitate about something that can cause seizure in their children.
2. I'm going to ignore your tinfoil comment.
3. Some people weigh the pros and cons (i.e. benefits and risks) of feeding their kids new foods and make their own determination about the benefit of such a decision. Most people have decided that at a certain point in time, the benefit outweighs the risk, but everyone makes that determination for themselves.
4. You would make similar calculations as well. You have already decided that in the case of vaccines, the benefits far far outweigh the risks. Good for you, I commend you and believe that science has proven that overall this is a reasonable conclusion and the safest decision to make. Other people still need to weigh the pros and cons and make that determination (and hopefully come to the same conclusion).

PS when trying anything that has not been heavily tested, one must accept that there is the conceivable risk of an unknown side effect occurring. The longer it is on the market and the more widely used the lower the chance becomes. Again this is something to consider in regards to "younger vaccines". That is not to say that people should not get them just that people must weigh that risk for themselves. People have been eating fish, peanut butter and nuts for thousands of years and there is enough empirical evidence to accept that the risks are known and people can make a decision based on that. However when a new "weight loss drug" comes on the market, one must suspect that there may be greater risks than the ones listed on the label. This requires an acceptance of a greater amount of risk as well.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on March 31, 2014, 09:23:17 PM
The mild and moderate categories are temporary discomforts and would not be classified as a "risk"- fever is not "Risky". Its just uncomfortable.
The severe problems are basically just an allergic reaction.

In other words: No Risks. AKA 100% safe. Thank you.

Is dying from allergic reaction somehow less problematic because "it's just allergies"?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 01, 2014, 12:21:04 AM
Is dying from allergic reaction somehow less problematic because "it's just allergies"?
Thought it was called SIDS if c"v someone dies from it...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 01, 2014, 12:27:05 AM
Is dying from allergic reaction somehow less problematic because "it's just allergies"?
Would you give your kids peanut butter for the first time?
Yes! Cuz its less problematic.
Can you figure  out why there is no " risk" warning on PB? cuz there are no anti PB wakos! B'H.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 01, 2014, 12:33:48 AM
Would you give your kids peanut butter for the first time?
Yes! Cuz its less problematic.
Can you figure  out why there is no " risk" warning on PB? cuz there are no anti PB wakos! B'H.
Lol. You think it says CONTAINS: PEANUTS in bold letters under the ingredient list for the benefit of people who can't read small type?  :o
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 01, 2014, 08:25:02 AM
Would you give your kids peanut butter for the first time?
Yes! Cuz its less problematic.
Can you figure  out why there is no " risk" warning on PB? cuz there are no anti PB wakos! B'H.

If there was a govt recommendation that said you needed to feed your baby peanut butter in the delivery room, or that you were required to feed your kid peanut butter before they started school, because it was "totally safe"--you bet there'd be a backlash.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 02, 2014, 01:13:28 PM
1.000.000 unvaxed & nursed kids in USA . find 1 nut allergy or sids case amongst all of them , maybe allergic to...SICK-NUTS


Thousands of innocent babies die of “sids  after a vax its a “coincidence”

Doctor Meyer Eisenstein has 10s of 1,000 unvaxed kids 0 autism, by “:coincidence”

ask parents who have a older vaxed kids & younger unvaxed how much healthier the unvaxed are
oh that’s just A….er….ahem….coincidence



:o
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 02, 2014, 01:16:10 PM
The geniuses from NY and Cali are so smart and advanced. Very progressive.   ::)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/measles-outbreaks-new-york-orange-county-spotlight-risks-even-for-vaccinated/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-ohio-mumps-outbreak-continues-to-grow/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 02, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
The geniuses from NY and Cali are so smart and advanced. Very progressive.   ::)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/measles-outbreaks-new-york-orange-county-spotlight-risks-even-for-vaccinated/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-ohio-mumps-outbreak-continues-to-grow/
Quote
If vaccinated persons are developing measles, does that mean that the MMR vaccine is ineffective?

"It's always a question that public health raises," said Zahn. "At this point it doesn't seem to be an issue with the vaccine, but its something we're looking at it."
:o?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 02, 2014, 01:37:30 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 02, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
1.000.000 unvaxed & nursed kids in USA . find 1 nut allergy or sids case amongst all of them , maybe allergic to...SICK-NUTS

Wait, nursing is also connected to this? So if a kid needs formula and can't be nursed they should get vaccinated? And now vaccinations cause nut allergies? I have so much to learn.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 02, 2014, 02:56:40 PM
1.000.000 unvaxed & nursed kids in USA . find 1 nut allergy or sids case amongst all of them , maybe allergic to...SICK-NUTS

Thousands of innocent babies die of “sids  after a vax its a “coincidence”

Doctor Meyer Eisenstein has 10s of 1,000 unvaxed kids 0 autism, by “:coincidence”

ask parents who have a older vaxed kids & younger unvaxed how much healthier the unvaxed are
oh that’s just A….er….ahem….coincidence
Mayor Einstein did not have all of those kids with one woman. And he explained how SICK-NUTS are known to cause vaccinations.

All I know for sure is that there is no coincidence that someone with your extensive knowledge of medicine and the English language would believe garbage like this without any data.  That’s just A….er….ahem….coincidence
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 02, 2014, 02:59:22 PM
Mayor Einstein did not have all of those kids with one woman. And he explained how SICK-NUTS are known to cause vaccinations.

All I know for sure is that there is no coincidence that someone with your extensive knowledge of medicine and the English language would believe garbage like this without any data.  That’s just A….er….ahem….coincidence
+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 02, 2014, 03:06:50 PM
Mayor Einstein did not have all of those kids with one woman. And he explained how SICK-NUTS are known to cause vaccinations.

All I know for sure is that there is no coincidence that someone with your extensive knowledge of medicine and the English language would believe garbage like this without any data.  That’s just A….er….ahem….coincidence

Data? Just ask anyone you know.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 02, 2014, 07:33:42 PM
AAP said in honor of April fool - autistic kids have the same amount of vaccines like  the rest that is their "proof" that vax did NOT cause autism

So 9 healthy guys smoking a daily pack  is proof that the 10th smoker who dropped dead @ 50 had zero connection to smoking

A survey was done in NY NJ frum community the difference in speed of child development & amount of ear infections is UN-comparable (212-444-1900-6-4-2)
Try in English please...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 02, 2014, 07:36:19 PM
No vac and no flu again this year. How about the rest of you?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 02, 2014, 07:47:18 PM
No vac and no flu again this year. How about the rest of you?
I know of 6 individuals who didn't get the shot and DID get the flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 02, 2014, 08:34:33 PM
Try in English please...
+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 02, 2014, 09:02:24 PM
Vac and no flu for me.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 02, 2014, 10:59:32 PM
No vac and no flu again this year. How about the rest of you?
Ditto, but I already voted in poll above last year...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 02, 2014, 11:01:04 PM
If there was an autism vaccine, what would it cause?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 02, 2014, 11:07:34 PM
If there was an autism vaccine, what would it cause?
Measles Mumps AND Rubella?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 02, 2014, 11:41:18 PM
I know of 6 individuals who didn't get the shot and DID get the flu.
Did you by any chance also know what their Vitamin D levels were like before they got the flu?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 03, 2014, 12:08:22 AM
Did you by any chance also know what their Vitamin D levels were like before they got the flu?
they were the same as the rest of the population. Average. You tell me!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 12:28:18 AM
Did you by any chance also know what their Vitamin D levels were like before they got the flu?
How did I know you would pop up with the vitamin D?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 03, 2014, 12:30:41 AM
Maybe include nursing in the flu poll...
Perhaps those who did not get the flu shot and were nursed as a baby did not get the flu.
(unless they were literally in the same house/classroom as a sneezing/coughing flu patient)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 12:35:56 AM
My baby nurses, didn't get the flu shot and got the flu...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 03, 2014, 12:38:35 AM
My baby nurses, didn't get the flu shot and got the flu...
I see -- Was referring to age 10 and older...

Was she just sick for a long time (a virus), or was she actually medically diagnosed with influenza?
(And - just wondering - is she in a day-care, group setting? Any peers who got it?)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 12:45:00 AM
She was sick for a week, the doctor said it was probably the flu though I guess we can't know for sure being that she wasn't tested.
She is not in a daycare and we have no clue where she got from...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 03, 2014, 12:46:09 AM
they were the same as the rest of the population. Average. You tell me!
If I had to bet on it I'd say they were low (like the rest of the local population, or at least anyone who isn't actively doing something about it)
How did I know you would pop up with the vitamin D?
And to think I almost forgot...
My baby nurses, didn't get the flu shot and got the flu...
Why not?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 03, 2014, 12:54:16 AM
..Why not?
Because the baby was low risk. She probably just had a typical one-week virus;
Plus the shot wouldn't have helped that anyway.
(IMO, I think if it was really the flu at that age, with throwing up and dehydration, then she'd be hospitalized for a little while...)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 03, 2014, 01:02:45 AM
One day when you have extra time on your hands go through the back and forth on this thread until now... I wasn't serious...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 03, 2014, 01:07:37 AM
One day when you have extra time on your hands go through the back and forth on this thread until now... I wasn't serious...
OK - Good.. I've seen bits and pieces of this thread and
I know that there is TONS of pressure to inject everyone for everything - regardless of age...
Big posters outside Rite-Aid and CVS as if they are giving out cotton candy.

Most injections are smart --- Some are not. Knowledge and Timing are crucial...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 03, 2014, 07:40:48 AM
OK - Good.. I've seen bits and pieces of this thread and
I know that there is TONS of pressure to inject everyone for everything - regardless of age...
Big posters outside Rite-Aid and CVS as if they are giving out cotton candy.

Most injections are smart --- Some are not. Knowledge and Timing are crucial...
Add 1 to the "people who don't believe that there is a grand conspiracy but can still use their brain" category.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 07:47:00 AM
Why not?
Not because we have anything against it, we just never got around to it, we were really busy with personal matters in the beginning of the year.
Don't worry I believe this is the last time my wife will let the kids miss the flu shot...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 03, 2014, 07:48:04 AM
AAP said in honor of April fool - autistic kids have the same amount of vaccines like  the rest that is their "proof" that vax did NOT cause autism

So 9 healthy guys smoking a daily pack  is proof that the 10th smoker who dropped dead @ 50 had zero connection to smoking

A survey was done in NY NJ frum community the difference in speed of child development & amount of ear infections is UN-comparable (212-444-1900-6-4-2)
Actually if autistic kids are vaccinated in equal proportion to non-autistic kids that would be pretty good evidence that vaccines are not linked to autism.

The 10th guy got hit by a train because of his ear infection. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say with your second and third thoughts.

I can't believe I'm still replying to this nonsense... I just can't fathom that people can be so illogical.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2014, 07:54:04 AM
No vac and no flu again this year. How about the rest of you?
I should add that 3 in our family had the shot and three did not. Everyone was flu free this year. So there you have it proof positive it does not matter if you get the shot or not.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 03, 2014, 07:58:31 AM
I should add that 3 in our family had the shot and three did not. Everyone was flu free this year. So there you have it proof positive it does not matter if you get the shot or not.  :)

Actually, it proves that even vaccinating half your family can save the whole family from the flu. That's how strong it is.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 07:59:18 AM
I should add that 3 in our family had the shot and three did not. Everyone was flu free this year. So there you have it proof positive it does not matter if you get the shot or not.  :)
Well with such a large sample size, I guess you must be right :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2014, 08:01:01 AM
Actually, it proves that even vaccinating half your family can save the whole family from the flu. That's how strong it is.
Alternatively it can prove that not getting the flu has a 50% chance of causing you to get the flu shot (wait did they not get the flu before or after they did or didn't get vaccinated? I'm a bit confused now, what caused what? ???),
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2014, 09:46:23 AM
they were the same as the rest of the population. Average. You tell me!
Not sure if you realize it but comments like this hurt your arguments.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 03, 2014, 07:05:36 PM
By a fellow DDFer...

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha
A response:

A RESPONSE TO RABBI SHOLOM SHUCHAT'S MARCH 30, 2014 COL ARTICLE CONCERNING THE REBBE'S VIEWS ON VACCINATIONS

By Yaakov Shapiro

THE ARTICLE
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha

THE RESPONSE
Dear Readers,

While Rabbi Shuchat is correct that Chasidim should be interested in obtaining the Rebbe’s view on any given topic, including medical concerns, in the hope that there is clear guidance on the matter, it is my assertion that in this regard there is more to the discussion than he presents.

Rabbi Shuchat quotes two letters from the Rebbe featured in the Kehos book, Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit volume 2, chapter 11, in support of vaccinations, as well as two letters from volume 1, chapter 4, in which the Rebbe speaks of Torah’s instruction to follow a doctor’s orders.

Let us address the letters from volume 1, chapter 4, first.

The letters in that chapter, as evident to any reader, are extremely general and vague; they do not reveal the natures of the patients’ maladies or of their hesitations in following their doctors’ advice.

Rather, the letters in that chapter revolve around five general themes:

1) G-d Himself demands that a person not procrastinate in seeking out a doctor’s advice nor in following it

2) One should not rely on Torah and mitzvos alone to heal oneself

3) General fears about the future of one’s health should not paralyze a person from implementing their doctor’s instructions

4) One should not put their own self-diagnosis and opinions on how to heal above their doctor’s

5) One should not minimize the importance of the body’s health on account of one’s focus on spirituality

These themes have no bearing on the modern discussion about vaccinations in particular, as shall now be demonstrated.

If there were any letter in that chapter that Shuchat could better have quoted, it is the (undated and un-sourced) letter found on page 43:

“…A person may well have his doubts about the efficacy of a drug prescribed by his physician. Will he refuse to take it until he has been able to attend medical school and learn all that his doctor has learned during his lifetime of study and experience? Will he not rely on the authority of the medical specialist?

If he has doubts about the expertise of one doctor, he can obtain a second opinion, and a third; but when all agree that he needs a particular medicine or a prescribed regimen, would he refuse to take that expert advice even if he still has “strong doubts” about it?”

On the surface, this letter would appear to support Shuchat’s contention, and that expressed by numerous commenters on his article, that the anti-vaccination movement should stop being defiant and accept the collective word of the medical establishment.

But this is not the case at all, and certainly not when it comes to the discussion of vaccinations, for:

a) The nature of the person’s ailment, the exact medicine prescribed, and the psychological-emotional attitude of the person the Rebbe is writing to, are not revealed at all in the letter. We are certainly not able to determine if the medicine in question was at that time under scrutiny for possible dangerous side effects. And if there is anything implied by the letter, it is that this person was offering the Rebbe nothing more than emotional “strong doubts,” which the Rebbe is telling the person to put to rest in the face of his doctor’s expertise.

b) The Rebbe speaks of a case where “all doctor’s agree” on a certain course of action. In the case of vaccinations, there is hardly consensus among doctors; there is only, perhaps, consensus among the pharmaceutical companies who produce and sell them.

c) The Rebbe is clearly speaking of a doctor’s expertise based on extensive schooling and practice to DIAGNOSE and PRESCRIBE. This has no bearing on the discussion of vaccinations, which are administered to HEALTHY children – not because the doctor has “learned” about them over years of experience, but, again, because the pharmaceutical companies “vouch” for their safety, necessity and effectiveness.

Which brings us to our discussion of the Rebbe’s views on vaccinations in particular:

Let us begin this part of our discussion with another letter from Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol.2, page 129, where, in 1960, the Rebbe warns against the over-use of antibiotics, based on new medical research that came to light at that time.

The Rebbe, there, says specifically NOT TO RELY SOLELY ON YOUR DOCTOR – and I quote:

“You are surely aware that in the United States the enthusiasm and ardor to give antibiotics has dampened, and doctors are beginning to have serious reservations about their excessive use...

…It would be particularly beneficial for you to encourage him [the doctor] to check this out specifically with those who have been actively researching this matter, since by and large practicing doctors do not have too much time for research. [This is] particularly so, since the drug companies that manufacture these antibiotics are not at all interested in such research, as can readily be understood, [as it would lower their sales, etc.]."

The Rebbe clearly acknowledges that doctors, while they are well-meaning, are not to be CATEGORICALLY relied upon for questions relating to medical research, as they are generally too consumed by their field to analyze such research properly, and that the drug companies certainly cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information either to the public or to the doctors themselves.

Add to this the fact that in regard to medical doctors, their license precludes them from contradicting what they have been taught in medical school.

[Parenthetically, the fact that the collective medical establishment laughed at the “alternative health” community for decades about their reservations about antibiotic use, should alone give pause to Shuchat. As is now well-known, that same medical establishment now admits the damage caused by its over-use of antibiotics – well past 1960, when the Rebbe penned the above letter]

As far as the handful of letters in that same book, by which Shuchat invokes the Rebbe’s ‘categorical’ support of the use of vaccinations, the Rebbe is speaking about only one type of vaccine, and in the 1950s. Thus, one cannot extrapolate from there that the Rebbe would have supported all the vaccines that are administered today, 60 years later, and in the multiple combinations and at the younger and younger ages that they are now given.

Rabbi Groner, one of the Rebbe’s secretaries, whom I consulted years ago on the matter, claimed that the Rebbe supported the use of vaccines through the 1980s. HOWEVER, being that all the research about the potential dangers of vaccines only came to public awareness AFTER GIMMEL TAMMUZ, we cannot assume the Rebbe himself would have maintained his earlier stance. The Rebbe was very conservative when it came to medicine (see Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol 2, page 22, footnote 4, in the name of one of the Rebbe’s secretaries), and we cannot presume to know that he would have continued to endorse vaccines after evidence of their dangers came to light.

And if you'll argue that the Rebbe would never change his mind on any matter (playing the "ruach hakodesh card"), I can only point you back to the letter above about antibiotics, and ask:

Did the Rebbe warn against antibiotics in the 1950s, before NEW research about their dangers came to light in 1960?

Not that we know of.

As far as disinformation in this very community: when the mumps outbreak occurred in Crown Heights a number of years back, three doctors of the community sent out a signed letter to all the schools blaming the outbreak on unvaccinated children (I received the letter from my son’s pre-school class at one of the two main boys schools here). The letter first stated that the disease was taking root and "gaining velocity" (sic) in the unvaccinated kids, and then spreading even to the vaccinated kids. But it then added that perhaps the mumps epidemic was a new strain which nobody was vaccinated against to begin with!

In other words, they first created panic and discord, blaming the unvaccinated kids, and then they noted that perhaps the vaccines were ineffective.

[By the way, if they were suggesting some kind of new strain had somehow mutated, like a “super-bug” which develops due to over-use of antibiotics, one must wonder where such a mutation would more likely to occur, in an unvaccinated person or a vaccinated one?]

A few weeks later, there was an outrage in the comments on COL when they published a headline that one local doctor had supposedly asked schools to no longer accept new kids that were unvaccinated. Without getting into the entire debate that ensued, which pitted neighbors and friends against each other, there was never a report that just a few weeks later, that very same doctor's office posted a notice on its front desk – which I saw with my own two eyes – that the TRUE cause of the outbreak was that the mumps vaccine wears off after a certain number of years, and that one must get another dose when one reaches teenage-hood.

Guess what! According to reports at the time, the mumps outbreak began amongst the VACCINATED TEENAGE BOYS of Crown Heights, not the unvaccinated kindergarteners.

The bottom line is this: there is in fact a lot of disinformation out there about vaccines, even from the medical establishment, even from the well-meaning doctors within our own community.

But to draw lines in the sand between members of our community, accusing one side of betraying the Rebbe, and supporting such an accusation by surgically extracting pithy quotes from letters that are taken out of context and not properly analyzed, is nothing short of sinful.

The vaccination-safety question is far from settled, even among doctors.

And it should be noted that while the pro-vaccine camp harps on the issue of autism and the pharmaceutical companies’ claims that they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that autism does not result from vaccines, the fact of the matter is that this is not just about autism. There are numerous other harmful side effects caused by vaccines that do not get so much publicity. GO AND LEARN!

A few personal cases in point:

1) A close family friend’s nephew had his child given the chicken pox vaccine. The next day the child developed a tremendous fever, resulting in complications that eventually led to brain death.

2) Another close friend used to poke fun at me for not vaccinating my children. But when it came time to sending my first child to school, he offered to put me in touch with a lawyer to help me cut through any objections the school might raise. Why? Because he and his wife had decided to hold off on vaccines for their son, and then after he was a few years old, when the child received his first dose of multiple vaccines, he developed severe eczema the following day, and at the time of our discussion had been suffering with it for months.

3) My wife’s grandmother recently got her flu vaccine. Shortly afterwards she developed Bells Palsy on her face. When she went to the doctor, the nurse asked her if she had recently received a flu shot. When she replied that she had, the nurse responded: “Well, that explains it.”

Think about it: Every medicine has a long list of potential side effects. But we are supposed to believe that vaccines – ALL OF THEM – are perfectly safe, and not only for adults, but for ALL newborn children?!

All parents, according to halachah, are obligated to guard their children’s health in the best way they know how. Some parents believe that the risks of immunizing are small compared to the risks of the diseases they prevent. Others believe the risks of those diseases are small compared to the risks of injecting known toxins into a healthy child. That we must choose one set of risks over the other is one of the many challenges G-d sends us in this formidable task called “parenthood.”

The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.

[As a footnote, Shuchat’s citation of one extremely vague letter of the Rebbe about an unnamed form of psychic healing, and his application of it equally to ALL forms of non-Western, “alternative healing methods,” reveals a gross ignorance of his subject]
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 03, 2014, 07:22:40 PM
The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.
Would this include parents that reject all medical treatment for their children?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 03, 2014, 08:11:30 PM
@JJ, excellent article. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 03, 2014, 08:44:22 PM
@JJ (really @Yaacov Shapiro)

Well written article but I dislike it just as much as the Shuchat article. Mostly because everyone has such a hard time seeing the other side that they end up throwing garbage into their article mucking the whole thing up. If he would have stuck to the few factual claims he has and ended with his last couple of paragraphs about parents trying to do their best I would have respected his position. When I have time I will retort to the numerous false claims and irrelevant info  in his article.

Would this include parents that reject all medical treatment for their children?
Judaism has a very strong belief in health and life. If something is clearly going to be a cause in someone's death or illness it is not permitted according to Judaism. Your question is a difficult dilemma for medicine vis-a-vis some other religions.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 04, 2014, 01:42:34 AM
If you know the answer why do u ask ?
I don't know the answer.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 04, 2014, 02:09:31 AM
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
When writing a post on a forum like this one, YankyDoodle + many others have taken our time to respond. Each time we post, not only do we try to write in proper English, so that everyone can understand. there also has to be time to comb through what was said, and possibly find links or quotes with factual claims (or doctors' opinions). Being that we have busy lives + a side job to follow and post on ddf, when it comes to a discussion like this one, that no-one here is or should be making rash decisions, we allow as much time as is needed to respond. (This isn't one of those quick-no blinking debates.) In addition, YankyDoodle has in the past responded and didn't use as an excuse to get out of something. Remember, it is Pesach season and Erev Shabbos.
@ThinkTwice  I think I agree with some/most of your points and it seems that you can bring a lot of knowledge into this and other ddf threads. However, some responses so far have been extremely unclear and hard to understand. Besides for your points making sense to you, it would be great if they were written with more clarity as other need to understand as well.
Also, please remember that besides for 2 ppl (who in the above poll got a nasal vaccine, and are the only two in two years) we all get along. We are trying to come out with some clarity, on a very unclear topic. Now one of the two is Dan, I wonder who the second is... ...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 04, 2014, 11:05:46 AM
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
Is there something that you don't understand about why the CDC recommends vaccinations?
Post your questions here, someone will explain it to you, very slowly.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 04, 2014, 11:52:11 AM
Was this posted here yet?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365

Has anyone here who is pro vaccination ever convinced someone who was anti?

In all discussions I've seen -online, in print, in person - no amount of reason, emotion or myth debunking seems to make even the slightest impact. 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 04, 2014, 12:43:56 PM
@ Barryg thank you for your reply.
JJ did a nice job
Why do you shoot from the hip hiding behind the claim that you wiil prove him wrong when "you have time"

 I switched to a Doc who who no longer belives in idol warship of vaccines, then we noticed the blind Quack followers of CDC "have no time" to explain their position, the common sence Doctor can relax & explain in detail maybe b/c he stands on solid ground
I started writing a response that was respectful and reasoned, but I just couldn't. These "common sence (sic) doctors" to which you refer do not have "solid ground" to stand on. Is it possible that they are concerned for patient safety? Absolutely! Are parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids, evil monstors? By and large, no. But anyone who argues that they have a more solid scientific ground to stand on is delusional. That doesn't mean they cannot possibly be correct, but scientific method has not borne that out. They choose to err on the side of caution (in their opinion) against vaccination.

Yet here you are, ranting about sick nuts, and quack followers of idol worship... It's disturbing, ignorant and untrue. So as long as we're clear about who's shooting from the hip.

I have read every one of the 717 posts on this topic in this thread, have you read more than 40? I have responded to (nearly) every argument put forward by anti-vaccination proponents in clear easy to understand English with sources (as Barryg mentioned as well). Whether they agreed with my logic or not is a different story. I have even responded to your attempts at posts with accurate rebuttals (and some humor) and you have yet to respond cognizantly to one.

BTW JJ did not write the article he simply posted it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 04, 2014, 01:19:58 PM
A response:

A RESPONSE TO RABBI SHOLOM SHUCHAT'S MARCH 30, 2014 COL ARTICLE CONCERNING THE REBBE'S VIEWS ON VACCINATIONS

By Yaakov Shapiro

THE ARTICLE
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29712&alias=anti-vaccine-calls-and-halacha

THE RESPONSE
Dear Readers,

While Rabbi Shuchat is correct that Chasidim should be interested in obtaining the Rebbe’s view on any given topic, including medical concerns, in the hope that there is clear guidance on the matter, it is my assertion that in this regard there is more to the discussion than he presents. Agreed

redacted

b) The Rebbe speaks of a case where “all doctor’s agree” on a certain course of action. In the case of vaccinations, there is hardly consensus among doctors; there is only, perhaps, consensus among the pharmaceutical companies who produce and sell them.

Untrue, mentioning the pharmaceutical companies is a cheap shot to make the doctors look like they all take bribes from big pharma. The large majority of doctors are in agreement to an extent that I believe the Rebbe (and most everybody) would agree. Whether you choose to trust them is a different story but the large majority agree to the extent of being able to say "all" IMO.

c) The Rebbe is clearly speaking of a doctor’s expertise based on extensive schooling and practice to DIAGNOSE and PRESCRIBE. This has no bearing on the discussion of vaccinations, which are administered to HEALTHY children – not because the doctor has “learned” about them over years of experience, but, again, because the pharmaceutical companies “vouch” for their safety, necessity and effectiveness.

Half-true point that he again mucked up. Yes, most doctors are not particularly expert in vaccinations (although expert is a relative term, they know a hell of a lot more about them than anybody reading this article). However their trust in them has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies and everything to do with 1) actual peer-reviewed research article (plenty done by people not working for big pharma). 2) the fact that it passes their subjective "eye test" i.e. their actual experiences with vaccines and the associations that they see in conjunction with it. 3) The positive health outcomes that occur as a result of the vaccines

Which brings us to our discussion of the Rebbe’s views on vaccinations in particular:

Let us begin this part of our discussion with another letter from Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol.2, page 129, where, in 1960, the Rebbe warns against the over-use of antibiotics, based on new medical research that came to light at that time.

The Rebbe, there, says specifically NOT TO RELY SOLELY ON YOUR DOCTOR – and I quote:

“You are surely aware that in the United States the enthusiasm and ardor to give antibiotics has dampened, and doctors are beginning to have serious reservations about their excessive use...

…It would be particularly beneficial for you to encourage him [the doctor] to check this out specifically with those who have been actively researching this matter, since by and large practicing doctors do not have too much time for research. [This is] particularly so, since the drug companies that manufacture these antibiotics are not at all interested in such research, as can readily be understood, [as it would lower their sales, etc.]."

The Rebbe clearly acknowledges that doctors, while they are well-meaning, are not to be CATEGORICALLY relied upon for questions relating to medical research, as they are generally too consumed by their field to analyze such research properly, and that the drug companies certainly cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information either to the public or to the doctors themselves.

The Rebbe says to encourage the individual doctor to look into current research...that is awfully clear that 1) the doctor should be the one to make final assessment (implication being that a layman cannot make the best decision) and 2) that current research should be used.

Add to this the fact that in regard to medical doctors, their license precludes them from contradicting what they have been taught in medical school.

BS, again trying to make people believe that there is a giant conspiracy.

[Parenthetically, the fact that the collective medical establishment laughed at the “alternative health” community for decades about their reservations about antibiotic use, should alone give pause to Shuchat. As is now well-known, that same medical establishment now admits the damage caused by its over-use of antibiotics – well past 1960, when the Rebbe penned the above letter]

Where is it documented that the ME (medical establishment) "laughed" at the idea? Besides their is a huge difference between these cases. The argument against antibiotic use is that we can run out of them/bacteria can develop into superbugs. Regardless society would be no worse off with overuse than without them at all. Vaccinations are far different if you are arguing that they cause diseases in otherwise healthy kids, I can assure you doctors are not laughing about that. Instead they researched it extensively, and came to a resounding conclusion that it is overwhelmingly beneficial.

As far as the handful of letters in that same book, by which Shuchat invokes the Rebbe’s ‘categorical’ support of the use of vaccinations, the Rebbe is speaking about only one type of vaccine, and in the 1950s. Thus, one cannot extrapolate from there that the Rebbe would have supported all the vaccines that are administered today, 60 years later, and in the multiple combinations and at the younger and younger ages that they are now given.

True, but one can extrapolate that the Rebbe generally supported the concept of using vaccines to eradicate or minimize the chance of the deadly disease they fight. Again you gotta use your brain to determine what makes the most sense for your family needs and situation.

Rabbi Groner, one of the Rebbe’s secretaries, whom I consulted years ago on the matter, claimed that the Rebbe supported the use of vaccines through the 1980s. HOWEVER, being that all the research about the potential dangers of vaccines only came to public awareness AFTER GIMMEL TAMMUZ, we cannot assume the Rebbe himself would have maintained his earlier stance. The Rebbe was very conservative when it came to medicine (see Healthy in Mind, Body and Spirit, vol 2, page 22, footnote 4, in the name of one of the Rebbe’s secretaries), and we cannot presume to know that he would have continued to endorse vaccines after evidence of their dangers came to light.

Evidence of their dangers? Again, if his claim is that it is possible that the Rebbe would not support vaccines now, I can accept that. I don't agree, but I can accept it. But he makes gross claims without backing any of them up! Believe me, there was always the possibility of risk with the vaccines, even in the 1950's. Do you think the Rebbe didn;t consider that there might possibly be adverse side effects 20 or 30 years down the line? Of course he did! But that was a risk worth taking for the amazing ability to prevent tens of thousands of sure deaths!

And if you'll argue that the Rebbe would never change his mind on any matter (playing the "ruach hakodesh card"), I can only point you back to the letter above about antibiotics, and ask:

Did the Rebbe warn against antibiotics in the 1950s, before NEW research about their dangers came to light in 1960?

Not that we know of.

I don't have a problem with this line of reasoning per se, except that I would bet that a significant percentage of the non vaccinators also don't use ultrasounds because the Rebbe expressed concern about them when they first came out. Well guess what, they are safe, and they save lives... Of course the Rebbe would support them now!

As far as disinformation in this very community: when the mumps outbreak occurred in Crown Heights a number of years back, three doctors of the community sent out a signed letter to all the schools blaming the outbreak on unvaccinated children (I received the letter from my son’s pre-school class at one of the two main boys schools here). The letter first stated that the disease was taking root and "gaining velocity" (sic) in the unvaccinated kids, and then spreading even to the vaccinated kids. But it then added that perhaps the mumps epidemic was a new strain which nobody was vaccinated against to begin with!

Well, what was the result? Was it a new strain? Don't leave us in the dark.

In other words, they first created panic and discord, blaming the unvaccinated kids, and then they noted that perhaps the vaccines were ineffective.

[By the way, if they were suggesting some kind of new strain had somehow mutated, like a “super-bug” which develops due to over-use of antibiotics, one must wonder where such a mutation would more likely to occur, in an unvaccinated person or a vaccinated one?]

False. Super-bugs mutate when they are existing in people and replicating. they cannot replicate in people that are immune to them. this generally just shows a level of ignorance and a clear bias against vaccinations.

A few weeks later, there was an outrage in the comments on COL when they published a headline that one local doctor had supposedly asked schools to no longer accept new kids that were unvaccinated. Without getting into the entire debate that ensued, which pitted neighbors and friends against each other, there was never a report that just a few weeks later, that very same doctor's office posted a notice on its front desk – which I saw with my own two eyes – that the TRUE cause of the outbreak was that the mumps vaccine wears off after a certain number of years, and that one must get another dose when one reaches teenage-hood.

I don't know when the outbreak occurred relative to the knowledge that booster shots are needed. Again no one is arguing that vaccines are perfect, but a booster again is a small price to pay to avoid terrible diseases.

Guess what! According to reports at the time, the mumps outbreak began amongst the VACCINATED TEENAGE BOYS of Crown Heights, not the unvaccinated kindergarteners.

Proof? Do we know that the teenage boys were vaccinated? Someone out there is carrying the disease and (whether you believe in vaccinations or not, you should be able to recognize that unvaccinated individuals are at far greater risk of contracting one of the diseases. In such a way they may pass it on to a vaccinated child who is in close company with him (again vaccines aren't perfect! That's why we need more of the population to create a greater herd immunity.

The bottom line is this: there is in fact a lot of disinformation out there about vaccines, even from the medical establishment, even from the well-meaning doctors within our own community.

But to draw lines in the sand between members of our community, accusing one side of betraying the Rebbe, and supporting such an accusation by surgically extracting pithy quotes from letters that are taken out of context and not properly analyzed, is nothing short of sinful.

The vaccination-safety question is far from settled, even among doctors.

And it should be noted that while the pro-vaccine camp harps on the issue of autism and the pharmaceutical companies’ claims that they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that autism does not result from vaccines, the fact of the matter is that this is not just about autism. There are numerous other harmful side effects caused by vaccines that do not get so much publicity. GO AND LEARN!

That warrant the risk of these diseases becoming an epidemic again? Like what?

A few personal cases in point:

1) A close family friend’s nephew had his child given the chicken pox vaccine. The next day the child developed a tremendous fever, resulting in complications that eventually led to brain death.

2) Another close friend used to poke fun at me for not vaccinating my children. But when it came time to sending my first child to school, he offered to put me in touch with a lawyer to help me cut through any objections the school might raise. Why? Because he and his wife had decided to hold off on vaccines for their son, and then after he was a few years old, when the child received his first dose of multiple vaccines, he developed severe eczema the following day, and at the time of our discussion had been suffering with it for months.

3) My wife’s grandmother recently got her flu vaccine. Shortly afterwards she developed Bells Palsy on her face. When she went to the doctor, the nurse asked her if she had recently received a flu shot. When she replied that she had, the nurse responded: “Well, that explains it.”

Personal cases are great for garnering sympathy but are not an effective way to measure the success or risk of a treatment. I know people that die from all sorts of treatments and surgeries, doesn't make them bad medicine (just imperfect). These cases may not be related to the vaccine. Even if they are related, the risks of not vaccinating could still outweigh the "risks" of vaccinating (although for the family of the hurt individual it may not feel that way). Finally, if you are so sure that there is a clear direct caual relationship between vaccines and terrible injury, design a study and I will personally carry it out, to test the hypothesis (as would any number of other qualified people).

If we are going to start bringing personal cases up, how about watching this video and imagining that this was your baby:
This is one disease (pertussis aka whooping cough) that hundreds of thousands of babies were saved from (each year!!) thanks to just one vaccine!


Think about it: Every medicine has a long list of potential side effects. But we are supposed to believe that vaccines – ALL OF THEM – are perfectly safe, and not only for adults, but for ALL newborn children?!

All parents, according to halachah, are obligated to guard their children’s health in the best way they know how. Some parents believe that the risks of immunizing are small compared to the risks of the diseases they prevent. Others believe the risks of those diseases are small compared to the risks of injecting known toxins into a healthy child. That we must choose one set of risks over the other is one of the many challenges G-d sends us in this formidable task called “parenthood.”

The decisions parents face in order to protect their children are painful and difficult. But we must stop demonizing those parents who make decisions different than our own.

If there is evidence supporting them. And if there is no harm that can result to others. If people are smoking near my child, you can be absolutely sure that I will either move her away or ask the person to stop.

[As a footnote, Shuchat’s citation of one extremely vague letter of the Rebbe about an unnamed form of psychic healing, and his application of it equally to ALL forms of non-Western, “alternative healing methods,” reveals a gross ignorance of his subject]

Yup, R. Shuchat's letter was not very well written and just like this letter came in with too strong of a bias.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 07, 2014, 04:42:19 PM
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 07, 2014, 04:49:01 PM

It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/

Posters are probably sick with the flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 07, 2014, 04:58:33 PM
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)

Especially after you were taken to task for not responding IMMEDIATELY.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 07, 2014, 05:19:47 PM
Especially after you were taken to task for not responding IMMEDIATELY.
I would ThinkTwice before making a statement like that!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 07, 2014, 05:38:07 PM
It's gotten awfully quiet around here...  ::)
Here's an article that's worth reading if you have a moment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/06/anti-vaccine-movement-is-giving-diseases-a-2nd-life/7007955/
+1 great article should be wikied!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: thaber on April 09, 2014, 01:19:57 AM
another good article: http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2014, 04:23:35 AM
Posters are probably sick with the flu.
Not me. No shot and flu free.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: A3 on April 09, 2014, 07:15:24 AM
Not me. No shot and flu free.  :)

+1 for my family. Myself haven't got the flu. But took tamiflu as a precaution after I held a kid that I later found out at the swine flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 09, 2014, 10:40:36 AM
Quote
If you don’t want to read the science, or you just don’t believe it, go downtown to the old cemeteries that are at least a hundred years old. After passing all those tiny tombstones of the children who died from the disease that are almost unknown today you will walk out a shaken and changed person. At the turn of the twentieth century, a child had only a one in three chance of growing up. Do we really want to return to that?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 09, 2014, 04:47:40 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-pros-and-cons-of-vaccinating-children,35731/?ref=auto
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 09, 2014, 06:30:59 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-pros-and-cons-of-vaccinating-children,35731/?ref=auto
Finally something that makes sense.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 06:25:12 AM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-pros-and-cons-of-vaccinating-children,35731/?ref=auto
Love me some onion!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 07:56:32 AM
1. UN chart, compare USA to Japan 4 times as many vaccines in 1st year of life, death rate 4times as high :P

http://www.childinfo.org/files/immunization_summary_en.pdf

2. this isfrom  my pediatrician's web site  :)

http://www.betternaturalhealing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/vaccine-and-infant-mortality-article.pdf

I grew up with every vaccine thinking it wouldn't be a problem. Now that I got married and learning new things (especially from grad school) I would definitely research before puttins something that I have no clue about into my body.
I've become much more aware of processed foods lately. So many  preservatives are linked to autism in children. It scary, actually.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 08:23:07 AM
Did you ever compare Autism rates amongst vaxed kids vs unvaxed
Yes. I've also been involved an autism research  in undergrad. I've learnt that there were no correlations. There once was a scientist who created a false research experiment and convinced everyone that the MMR vaccine was responsible- but others proved him wrong since he had no scientific backing and his experiments were not conducted correctly.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 10, 2014, 08:23:27 AM
Did you ever compare Autism rates amongst vaxed kids vs unvaxed
I believe there have been quite a few studies looking into that...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 08:32:46 AM
I grew up with every vaccine thinking it wouldn't be a problem. Now that I got married and learning new things (especially from grad school) I would definitely research before puttins something that I have no clue about into my body.
I've become much more aware of processed foods lately. So many  preservatives are linked to autism in children. It scary, actually.
what did you learn in grad school about vaccines?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 08:42:44 AM
what did you learn in grad school about vaccines?
Not specifically about vaccines. But about everything in general. Like I mentioned in an earlier post - the stuff that they put in food is ridiculous. One of my professors is a chiropractor. He's very interested in this stuff and holistic things so we talk about it a lot in class. He basically taught us don't just say yes because your pediatrician reccomends it. Do your own research.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 08:57:19 AM
@YD, Let's bring this up again because you totally blew this off last time.  :)
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419
No I did not miss that. I looked through it then and again now.
Quote
2) The last 4 either have no mention of vaccines or are not studies and are simply speculation.
The point of those studies was to show:  A) That there is a statistically significant elevation in immune system abnormalities and emergency room visits with heavily vaccinated children.
B) That the sharp increase in ASD prevalence should not be attributed solely to better diagnostic tools/methods, which is a popular claim of people trying to explain away that increase. Remember, we are talking about a prevalence of 1 in 88 children today as opposed to 1 in 10,000 twenty years ago.

Quote
3) 5 of the articles are referring specifically to thimerosal and Hg which have not been used in childhood vaccines in over a decade now. I cannot view any of these because I do not have access to them. They all seem to be trying to prove correlation and not causation. Regardless, they aren't used now so we'll move on.

Big mistake. Thimerosal is still used in the majority of today's flu shots as well as the Td vaccine so I think these studies are still very relevant.
Either way, something that we were told for years was safe has been shown to neurodevelopmental deficiencies and was hence removed from most vaccines. Are we not justified in questioning everything else that we are told is perfectly safe?
Have you considered that the reason autism rates have only kept going up since the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines is because it's been replaced with an even more potent neurotoxin, Aluminum? 

Quote
4) There are 2 studies on vaccines within the last decade. One claims a correlation with Aluminum in the vaccines (http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic%202011.pdf). The study is decent but not compelling. It makes assumptions such as "we calculated the cumulative amount of Al administered from all vaccines that children receive", they argue that since in a specific disease (macrophagic myofasciitis) the Al from vaccine remains for months to years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that is the case for all vaccines. This is not a reasonable assumption to make without further evidence and calls the entire study into question. They also argue that the strength of the correlation is enough to prove causation. That is just not true, especially in light of their poor study design. Finally for the icing, at the very end it says that the study was sponsored by Neurodyn corporation. Neurodyn's co-founder is Christopher Shaw, the author of the article. From what I can gather, his company is working on alternative options to vaccines... Conflict of interest much?

The last article you quoted (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) I also cannot access. All I can see is the abstract and it is not an experiment rather a study attempting to prove correlation. This is done through regression statistics accounting for a couple of factors (income, ethnicity). These types of studies are notorious for being able to be manipulated, however I will reserve judgement until a link can be provided that allows full access to the article.
You know a lot better than I do how much harder it is to prove causation from an established correlation but it is evident that there is research to be done and tough questions that need to asked by every parent before they blindly agree to the what and how often of the current vaccine schedule.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 08:58:01 AM
Not specifically about vaccines. But about everything in general. Like I mentioned in an earlier post - the stuff that they put in food is ridiculous. One of my professors is a chiropractor. He's very interested in this stuff and holistic things so we talk about it a lot in class. He basically taught us don't just say yes because your pediatrician reccomends it. Do your own research.
Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 09:10:56 AM
Products which strongly recommended by doctors but later shown to be extremely hazardous to human health.
Just remember. History always repeats itself.

(http://i.imgur.com/TkLrblgl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0h4QZQR.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/OcqIp1m.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/JgKc96T.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/rdvDN9z.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/RW8FDyh.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/kCcZVPL.png)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 09:26:50 AM
Do your own research.

It's all good and well to say to do your own research, and it may work for you. But your average person (myself included) does not know how to properly read a real medical study, and figure out the correct conclusions. You often see real evidence matched up with anecdotal, personal incidents and people think the debate is equal. I remember the vaccination debate playing out in a Jewish women's newsletter where doctors and medical experts were placed side by side with self proclaimed "healers" and even newsletter readers - with absolutely no credentials, and people looked at them as two equal sides debating.

Find a doctor you trust (The Lubavitcher Rebbe often instructed people to "ask a doctor who is a friend")  and rely on their guidance and advice. Their medical knowledge and training will far surpass anything you can Google. And if this doctor you trust goes against medical consensus, s/he better have a good reason.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 09:36:25 AM
Doing your own research  allows you to start asking the right questions.
You don't need a medical degree for that.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 10, 2014, 09:39:38 AM
Doing your own research  allows you to start asking the right questions.
First question I ask the doctor is if his/her kids were vaccinated.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 09:41:14 AM

Find a doctor you trust - excellent advice
[/quote]
Simple Google searches can also help inform the public about precautions. Granted some of them can be total garbage. You can still find plenty of info without delving into research because chances are someone has already done so.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 09:41:32 AM
Doing your own research  allows you to start asking the right questions.
You don't need a medical degree for that.
+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 09:41:51 AM
I bet fake hippy doctor hacks are wrong a lot more often than western medicine.

Its like the shmiras haguf says: Yes, its assur to do home births, but anyone who does it it shota and patur min hamitzvos anyway
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 09:43:03 AM
Products which strongly recommended by doctors but later shown to be extremely hazardous to human health.
Just remember. History always repeats itself.


It seems those are all commercials - not necessarily practices approved by the medical community at the time, though they may have been. Yes, medical knowledge changes and evolves based on evidence - as does all science. Bring evidence, and the medical community will change its mind.

To quote noted thinker, philosopher and barefoot sage, Tim Minchin, "Do you know what they call alternative medicine with evidence? Medicine."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 09:45:53 AM
Find a doctor you trust - excellent advice

Simple Google searches can also help inform the public about precautions. Granted some of them can be total garbage. You can still find plenty of info without delving into research because chances are someone has already done so.
Yes. Google is a great tool for medical research. In fact I recommend having major heart surgury by someone who looked it up on google.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 09:49:20 AM
Yes. Google is a great tool for medical research. In fact I recommend having major heart surgury by someone who looked it up on google.
Not the smartest comment. Doing research on something is hardly comprable to heart surgery. Noones saying not to do it on the forum. Were just saying do research. Wouldn't you want to know the pros and con's of having a knee replacement. Half of orthopedic surgeons would be glad to cut your knee off- they make 7000 depending on the insurance payouts.
Everything's a business
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 09:50:10 AM
Slightly off topic, but was wondering whether anyone on this thread that is anti-vax, also believes in homeopathy.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 09:50:22 AM
Doing your own research  allows you to start asking the right questions.
You don't need a medical degree for that.

Are you searching for the right questions to ask, or searching for answers? If a patient ASKS the doctor based on Googling, fine. The problem is far too many are negating advice and endangering the community based on ANSWERS they found on Google.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 09:52:37 AM
Not the smartest comment. Doing research on something is hardly comprable to heart surgery. Noones saying not to do it on the forum. Were just saying do research. Wouldn't you want to know the pros and con's of having a knee replacement. Half of orthopedic surgeons would be glad to cut your knee off- they make 7000 depending on the insurance payouts.
Everything's a business
I'm sorry to disagree with the ingenuity of your comment. Doing medical research on google?
The good news is due to natural selection this notion will be gone soon enough
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 09:54:08 AM
Yes. Google is a great tool for medical research. In fact I recommend having major heart surgury by someone who looked it up on google.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 10, 2014, 09:55:19 AM
Find a doctor you trust - excellent advice

Simple Google searches can also help inform the public about precautions. Granted some of them can be total garbage. You can still find plenty of info without delving into research because chances are someone has already done so.
and you would trust "someone" on the internet's research over your doctor's?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
Did you ever compare Autism rates amongst vaxed kids vs unvaxed
Dude, not even going to try to back up your previous statement? That's been a consistent problem on this forum (aside for a small minority), people throw in their opinions and then walk away without feeling compelled to back it up in any way.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 09:57:13 AM
Products which strongly recommended by doctors but later shown to be extremely hazardous to human health.
Just remember. History always repeats itself.
These are BS and have absolutely no relevance to doctors or the discussion at hand. Therefore I'm not at all surprised to see it trying to be used to prove that vaccines are dangerous, brilliant  ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 09:57:34 AM

Everything's a business

No, only drug companies and doctors are in it for the money. Naturalists, homeopaths and chiropractors are doing it for the good of the people.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 10, 2014, 10:02:37 AM
satisticly homebirths done by a pro like 15,000 by Dr Mayer Eisenstein have the have the highest safety record

Statistically, mother's who home birth at at the lowest risk for complications, if there is the slightest risk for complications no one would agree to home birth them...

Paroh wanted to kill us Rahsbam says vaya'as lohem botim means a building (hospital) by which he could stop the midwives from visiting mothers @ home

Didn't see the Rashbam in question but vaya'as Lahem Batim is talking about Hashem not Paroh...

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
I'm sorry to disagree with the ingenuity of your comment. Doing medical research on google?
The good news is due to natural selection this notion will be gone soon enough
The internet's power of information dissemination as a great equalizer is not limited to overthrowing Muslim dictators.
Are you not aware of the fact that every medical database is available on the internet?
No one is suggesting to base your health decisions off what you find online.
But what you find online can empower you to ask tough questions from your health professional.

And your comment about natural selection is callous and completely uncalled for.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 10:06:29 AM
These are BS and have absolutely no relevance to doctors or the discussion at hand. Therefore I'm not at all surprised to see it trying to be used to prove that vaccines are dangerous, brilliant  ::)
What about them is BS?
All are products which were recommended by doctors and later shown to be hazardous.
Not using it as an argument that vaccines are dangerous. Just using it as reminder that medicine and science are constantly evolving and what is considered safe and effective may turn out to be hazardous.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 10:09:38 AM
satisticly homebirths done by a pro like 15,000 by Dr Mayer Eisenstein have the have the highest safety record

Paroh wanted to kill us Rahsbam says vaya'as lohem botim means a building (hospital) by which he could stop the midwives from visiting mothers @ home

That was the government against us "pen yirbe" , he would bathe  in babies blood (Rashi )

the oir hachaim explains how he 1st planned to kill babies @ birth & convince the mothers that it is a ...coincidence
Dude, if you want to participate in this discussion, please write in a language we can all understand.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:09:48 AM
@YD, Let's bring this up again because you totally blew this off last time.  :)
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg630419#msg630419The point of those studies was to show:  A) That there is a statistically significant elevation in immune system abnormalities and emergency room visits with heavily vaccinated children.
B) That the sharp increase in ASD prevalence should not be attributed solely to better diagnostic tools/methods, which is a popular claim of people trying to explain away that increase. Remember, we are talking about a prevalence of 1 in 88 children today as opposed to 1 in 10,000 twenty years ago.

Big mistake. Thimerosal is still used in the majority of today's flu shots as well as the Td vaccine so I think these studies are still very relevant.
Either way, something that we were told for years was safe has been shown to neurodevelopmental deficiencies and was hence removed from most vaccines. Are we not justified in questioning everything else that we are told is perfectly safe?
Have you considered that the reason autism rates have only kept going up since the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines is because it's been replaced with an even more potent neurotoxin, Aluminum? 
You know a lot better than I do how much harder it is to prove causation from an established correlation but it is evident that there is research to be done and tough questions that need to asked by every parent before they blindly agree to the what and how often of the current vaccine schedule.
Not sure if you're serious but I did not blow you off, in fact I responded to every "study" that you quoted and asked for access to the other studies that you quoted because I could not view them. I'm still waiting for those full studies.

As I said those last studies that you quoted are not studies or have no mention of vaccines. Either quote me something from the study or move on.

Regarding the thimerosal studies, like I mentioned I could not view them and asked you for access to them (because you obviously studied them prior to posting  ::)) You can question anything you like, but you better have some proof before signing death sentences for hundreds of thousands of people. Do you really want everyone to stop using vaccines entirely? Yes, I (as well as many respected researchers) have considered the possible risks of aluminum and have concluded that it is a necessary adjuvant for vaccines that does not appear to increase the risk of morbidity and mortality in the patients.

Research has been done regarding vaccine safety. Hundreds of them on millions of children. No one wants parents to blindly follow the doctors, but would you rather them blindly follow conspiracy theorists (like you apparently do)?

Doing your own research  allows you to start asking the right questions.
You don't need a medical degree for that.
I am a father. I choose to vaccinate my daughter. Do you think that I don't ask the same questions you do? Believe me I do as does every other doctor with children. We came to the conclusion that we would rather trust what we see with the studies than try to bury our head in the sand and blame illnesses on the closest scapegoat.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 10:12:10 AM
No, only drug companies and doctors are in it for the money. Naturalists, homeopaths and chiropractors are doing it for the good of the people.
I'm so confused as to whether this is sarcastic or not.
I learned in school last semester about false advertising for lipitor. There old advertisement said something about a 30% decrease in cholesterol. It also had an asterisk next to it - with a description in the bottom "nnt=120" number needed to treat
Basically that meant 1 out of 120 people would see a decrease in cholesterol levels approximated to 30%
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 10:16:52 AM
Also, no one on this thread (at least not me) is trying to bash anybody for using vaccines. I'm fully vaccinated also. Its just what happens especially with regulations in schools these days its impossible to get in without proper medical immunizations.
Research is essential. Nobody likes being ignorant. Sometimes its easier though honestly. Noones saying that your ignorant for not doing research but it can't help to be on top of the latest, especially if there were once negative reports on it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 10:17:35 AM
I'm so confused as to whether this is sarcastic or not.
I learned in school last semester about false advertising for lipitor. There old advertisement said something about a 30% decrease in cholesterol. It also had an asterisk next to it - with a description in the bottom "nnt=120" number needed to treat
Basically that meant 1 out of 120 people would see a decrease in cholesterol levels approximated to 30%

Yes, it was sarcastic. What does Lipitor playing with numbers IN A COMMERCIAL have anything to do with this?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:18:17 AM
What about them is BS?
All are products which were recommended by doctors and later shown to be hazardous.
Not using it as an argument that vaccines are dangerous. Just using it as reminder that medicine and science are constantly evolving and what is considered safe and effective may turn out to be hazardous.
Everything about how you are using them is BS. the overwhelming majority of doctors recommended 7-UP as a diet supplement? Did they also do hundreds of studies to prove that cigarettes were safe? Every point you made was deceitful (if not by you then by the website that you copied it from) and incorrect. The only accurate point is that medicine and science is always a work in progress. It has always found a way to correct itself when errors were found. Vaccines have been tested for a long time and they have consistently proven to be an effective method that has saved millions of lives with limited risk. If this were ever proven to be otherwise, medicine would evolve like it always does.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:20:06 AM
Yes, it was sarcastic. What does Lipitor playing with numbers IN A COMMERCIAL have anything to do with this?
+1
Why the blind love for the naturalists? They stand to make a heck of a lot more money on this fear of medicine then doctors have in protecting vaccines... In fact doctors would make way more $$ if people became sick with vaccine-preventable diseases!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 10:21:46 AM
One pediatrician I spoke to told me he loses money on one of the vaccines (I forget which ).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 10, 2014, 10:22:38 AM
Everything about how you are using them is BS. the overwhelming majority of doctors recommended 7-UP as a diet supplement? Did they also do hundreds of studies to prove that cigarettes were safe? Every point you made was deceitful (if not by you then by the website that you copied it from) and incorrect. The only accurate point is that medicine and science is always a work in progress. It has always found a way to correct itself when errors were found. Vaccines have been tested for a long time and they have consistently proven to be an effective method that has saved millions of lives with limited risk. If this were ever proven to be otherwise, medicine would evolve like it always does.
So why trust the medical establishment which, by it's own admission, is always evolving, rather than trust the alternative establishment that got it right from the start? ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:23:38 AM
So why trust the medical establishment which, by it's own admission, is always evolving, rather than trust the alternative establishment that got it right from the start? ::)
Lol!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 10:28:43 AM
So why trust the medical establishment which, by it's own admission, is always evolving, rather than trust the alternative establishment that got it right from the start? ::)

Plus, we don't believe in evolution.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 10:34:11 AM
Yes, it was sarcastic. What does Lipitor playing with numbers IN A COMMERCIAL have anything to do with this?

Its just the idea that everything isnt as it seems. False advertisement does happen everyday.
Listen if someone told me that acupuncture could cure cancer, I wouldn't run to it. I'd be skeptical. But in my best interest I would also do some basic research.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 10:34:24 AM
The internet's power of information dissemination as a great equalizer is not limited to overthrowing Muslim dictators.
Are you not aware of the fact that every medical database is available on the internet?
No one is suggesting to base your health decisions off what you find online.
But what you find online can empower you to ask tough questions from your health professional.

And your comment about natural selection is callous and completely uncalled for.

Doing research in medical journals that happen to be online couldn't be any further than doing research on Google. That's like saying because every sefer is online, you can just google psak halacha. Anyone with a qualified opinion will publish it in an established medical journal. Ergo, 99.9% of anything on the internet that isn't in a medical journal is from people who would be barely qualified to apply a band-aid

And the natural selection comment is just fact. Natural selection has taken a huge hit in this decade thanks to modern medicine. But if you refuse it, then you're much more suseptible to natural selection
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 10:36:47 AM
Its just the idea that everything isnt as it seems. False advertisement does happen everyday.
Listen if someone told me that acupuncture could cure cancer, I wouldn't run to it. I'd be skeptical. But in my best interest I would also do some basic research...
By consulting a medical professional. According to most Google research it will, and has cured virtually every cancer case
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Its just the idea that everything isnt as it seems. False advertisement does happen everyday.
Listen if someone told me that acupuncture could cure cancer, I wouldn't run to it. I'd be skeptical. But in my best interest I would also do some basic research.
Oh come on man. What does false advertising have to do with the hundreds of studies done on vaccines? And guess what, even that one ad from lipitor was discovered and they were dealt severely for it. Don't you think that with all the scrutiny on vaccines someone would be able to uncover something if there was this grand conspiracy happening in the name of $$? And your comment about orthopedic surgeons before is stupid, even if they would cut off a healthy person's foot for money (which the majority would never do) there is something called oversight that protects people. Vaccines have oversight also, lots of it.

I don't disagree with you that you should be smart, but like you said look at the food products we put into our body daily. Look at the electronics all around us. These have practically zero oversight, maybe it's time to look at them as a possible source of autism and other ills rather than the already heavily scrutinized vaccines.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:43:35 AM
One of the major problems with alternative medicines is that they rarely have to stand up to defend themselves. And if they ever do have to - and it's discovered that they are phony - they disappear and pop up again in a new form. It's very easy to scrutinize medicine and that's a good thing and it helps it change for the better. Show me alternative therapies that can stand up to that level of scrutiny. It's a damn good system, but they're always happy to try to make it better.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 10:47:06 AM
Oh come on man. What does false advertising have to do with the hundreds of studies done on vaccines? And guess what, even that one ad from lipitor was discovered and they were dealt severely for it. Don't you think that with all the scrutiny on vaccines someone would be able to uncover something if there was this grand conspiracy happening in the name of $$? And your comment about orthopedic surgeons before is stupid, even if they would cut off a healthy person's foot for money (which the majority would never do) there is something called oversight that protects people. Vaccines have oversight also, lots of it.

I don't disagree with you that you should be smart, but like you said look at the food products we put into our body daily. Look at the electronics all around us. These have practically zero oversight, maybe it's time to look at them as a possible source of autism and other ills rather than the already heavily scrutinized vaccines.
I don't even feel that this conversation is about vaccines anymore. The idea is not to blame vaccines. The idea is just tk look into it. Like I said, I have all my vaccines and probably will give it to my children as well.
Its not even about conspiracy theories. About people making money while we suffer
I'm not trying to imply any of that. But I have noticed some weird things happen especially that advertisement (which I was right about).
From that perspective, it makes sense to look into something. Not for neurotic paranoid reasons. Just for common sense and for practical knowledge
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 10:49:20 AM
And there are plenty of surgeons who opt for surgery. I had a cyst cut out of my hand by a surgeon in NYC. He advised me to get it cut out. I went for a follow to a different doctor after the surgery- he said he would never have cut that out.he would have punctured it with a needle and drained the fluid. The body does not need to undergo trauma for a cyst.

So no, I don't feel that my comment was inappropriate. Especially if I was subjected to that kind of treatment before.

Mind you, he made 8,000
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:55:07 AM
I don't even feel that this conversation is about vaccines anymore. The idea is not to blame vaccines. The idea is just tk look into it. Like I said, I have all my vaccines and probably will give it to my children as well.
Its not even about conspiracy theories. About people making money while we suffer
I'm not trying to imply any of that. But I have noticed some weird things happen especially that advertisement (which I was right about).
From that perspective, it makes sense to look into something. Not for neurotic paranoid reasons. Just for common sense and for practical knowledge
I assume you have not read most of this thread. If you had, you would see that I agree with you completely that it's important to use your head and think things through. However I approach it from a completely different perspective. I am going to trust the doctors and researchers until such time that there is decent evidence showing a problem. I have not seen anything remotely resembling that yet.

You said you will give it to your children because the schools make you. You consistently indicated that there is cause for concern about conspiracies (lipitor and the orthopedic comment amongst others) on a thread about vaccines, it sure seems like you are implying that we should not trust what research has determined about vaccines. If I misunderstood your intent I apologize.

the lipitor advertisement is a terrible argument considering that it was placed by a business interested only in profits and that it was discovered promptly and corrected. Vaccines are vouched for and researched by people who stand to make no $ on it and it is constantly being monitored with errors in "advertising" being discovered at all.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 10:56:48 AM

the Talmud says you want to lie do it about far away stuff ,scare the public with faraway 3rd world  or yesteryear baloney



Yes, this is great proof against the quacks. Thanks for bringing it up
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 10:58:59 AM
they make $ when
1. when you vax
2. when come back with ear infection etc.
3.when there is long term damage Asthma Arthritis Autism ADD ADHD Autism Allergies Thats just the A


CDC close to 10% USA kids have Asthma  http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/asthma.htm

In 2007, CDC estimated that 294,000 U.S. children under age 18 (or 1 in 250 children) have been diagnosed with arthritis or other rheumatic conditions. http://www.cdc.gov/features/dspediatricarthritis/index.html is that also due to "better diagnosis :P "

http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsautismdata/ autism 1.000.000 unvaxed kids how many autistic ones dr eisenstein Has 10s of thousands unvaxed patients 0 autism

the Talmud says you want to lie do it about far away stuff ,scare the public with faraway 3rd world  or yesteryear baloney

Today
 in USA

vaccines are sickening & murdering our innocent children
Read this and respond to it coherently or I will continue to post it every time you post from now on.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 11:01:51 AM
I assume you have not read most of this thread. If you had, you would see that I agree with you completely that it's important to use your head and think things through. However I approach it from a completely different perspective. I am going to trust the doctors and researchers until such time that there is decent evidence showing a problem. I have not seen anything remotely resembling that yet.

You said you will give it to your children because the schools make you. You consistently indicated that there is cause for concern about conspiracies (lipitor and the orthopedic comment amongst others) on a thread about vaccines, it sure seems like you are implying that we should not trust what research has determined about vaccines. If I misunderstood your intent I apologize.

the lipitor advertisement is a terrible argument considering that it was placed by a business interested only in profits and that it was discovered promptly and corrected. Vaccines are vouched for and researched by people who stand to make no $ on it and it is constantly being monitored with errors in "advertising" being discovered at all.
That's why I'm trying to be as open as I can. Vaccines are not bad. They save millions of lives. My point is not proving their bad, but that there can be some stuff which has caused genetic mutations resulting in things like autism,ADHD, etc.

Once again, idk a lot about things. I'm just in the beginning stages of my research. FROM WHAT IVE HEARD, it makes sense to do research. Understandably, the lipitor thing wasn't relavent but from my point of view, it furthered the drive for money and POSSIBLE misinterpratations of results.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 11:02:24 AM
Read this and respond to it coherently or I will continue to post it every time you post from now on.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story
lol
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:02:41 AM
And there are plenty of surgeons who opt for surgery. I had a cyst cut out of my hand by a surgeon in NYC. He advised me to get it cut out. I went for a follow to a different doctor after the surgery- he said he would never have cut that out.he would have punctured it with a needle and drained the fluid. The body does not need to undergo trauma for a cyst.

So no, I don't feel that my comment was inappropriate. Especially if I was subjected to that kind of treatment before.

Mind you, he made 8,000
Are there doctors who are more trigger happy? Always! Find a good one that you are comfortable with. Is it possible he was concerned about a greater risk? Possibly. Why didn't you go for a second opinion and make the best decision for you? Regardless this has absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine discussion. Vaccines are not going to benefit almost any doctor financially and it is highly regulated (unlike a single cyst removal procedure).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:02:58 AM
Doing research in medical journals that happen to be online couldn't be any further than doing research on Google. That's like saying because every sefer is online, you can just google psak halacha. Anyone with a qualified opinion will publish it in an established medical journal. Ergo, 99.9% of anything on the internet that isn't in a medical journal is from people who would be barely qualified to apply a band-aid
Your jump in logic is just wrong.
Plenty of well-credentialed doctors have blogs/write articles that don't appear in a medical journal.
You think doctors only write things if they will appear in medical journals? :o
You obviously haven't any research of your own if you have that opinion.

Quote
And the natural selection comment is just fact. Natural selection has taken a huge hit in this decade thanks to modern medicine. But if you refuse it, then you're much more suseptible to natural selection
That is highly debatable. But whether it is true or not, the fact that you consider natural selection wiping out a large portion of the population a good thing is very disturbing.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:04:18 AM
DID even look in to the fact that your kids will NEED 3 times as many as you did

http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-schedule/history-of-vaccine-schedule.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 11:05:57 AM
That is highly debatable.
What is?
But whether it is true or not, the fact that you consider natural selection wiping out a large portion of the population a good thing is very disturbing.
Natural selection isn't a murder weapon. It's a natural effect. I'm no more trying to kill someone than a hospital is
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:06:44 AM
That's why I'm trying to be as open as I can. Vaccines are not bad. They save millions of lives. My point is not proving their bad, but that there can be some stuff which has caused genetic mutations resulting in things like autism,ADHD, etc.

Once again, idk a lot about things. I'm just in the beginning stages of my research. FROM WHAT IVE HEARD, it makes sense to do research. Understandably, the lipitor thing wasn't relavent but from my point of view, it furthered the drive for money and POSSIBLE misinterpratations of results.
Vaccines save millions of lives. They have never been shown to cause any of the awful diseases that have been mentioned. Many of them have been specifically tested and debunked (i.e. autism). Many diseases are rising in incidence. Lets use our energy to find the real culprits and stop intimating that vaccines may still be at fault. Either prove it or move on.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 11:08:02 AM
That's why I'm trying to be as open as I can. Vaccines are not bad. They save millions of lives. My point is not proving their bad, but that there can be some stuff which has caused genetic mutations resulting in things like autism,ADHD, etc.

Once again, idk a lot about things. I'm just in the beginning stages of my research. FROM WHAT IVE HEARD, it makes sense to do research. Understandably, the lipitor thing wasn't relavent but from my point of view, it furthered the drive for money and POSSIBLE misinterpratations of results.

You can see on this very thread that intelligent, well meaning people can take their research and come to dangerous conclusions. There has been overwhelming evidence posted to prove  the safety, effectiveness and necessity of vaccines. - including the lack of causation, or even correlation, to autism and adhd and vaccines. Yet, some are dead against them without a shred of evidence.

Education and knowledge cannot be overvalued, but get your education from the right place.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:09:13 AM
Everything about how you are using them is BS. the overwhelming majority of doctors recommended 7-UP as a diet supplement? Did they also do hundreds of studies to prove that cigarettes were safe? Every point you made was deceitful (if not by you then by the website that you copied it from) and incorrect. The only accurate point is that medicine and science is always a work in progress. It has always found a way to correct itself when errors were found. Vaccines have been tested for a long time and they have consistently proven to be an effective method that has saved millions of lives with limited risk. If this were ever proven to be otherwise, medicine would evolve like it always does.
Fair enough. You can take out 7-Up, formula, and sugar.

But, cigarettes, cocaine, heroin, and DDT, are all things which were recommended by doctors at their time but later shown to very harmful to human health. Not sure what you find deceitful about that.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 11:10:30 AM
Are there doctors who are more trigger happy? Always! Find a good one that you are comfortable with. Is it possible he was concerned about a greater risk? Possibly. Why didn't you go for a second opinion and make the best decision for you? Regardless this has absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine discussion. Vaccines are not going to benefit almost any doctor financially and it is highly regulated (unlike a single cyst removal procedure).
I think if you thought about it for a moment you can see that it is relevant. Its the idea that someone is coming out ahead and not just for the sake of healing-as there are other ways to heal without causing lots of money to be spent.
Not everything is coming out ahead, but since we all have already discussed and agree that the pharmaceutical/medical category is extremely profitable, it makes to check before you do things.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 11:12:23 AM
Fair enough. You can take out 7-Up, formula, and sugar.

But, cigarettes, cocaine, heroin, and DDT, are all things which were recommended by doctors at their time but later shown to very harmful to human health. Not sure what you find deceitful about that.
And they were recommended by alternative medicine far before, and for far longer than they were by western medicine. What's your point?

Cigarettes only became a part of western medicine after it was proven to provide medical bennefits. In fact there are still many medical bennefits associated with smoking, its just that the negative outweighs the positve. Unlike vaccines
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 11:12:31 AM
You can see on this very thread that intelligent, well meaning people can take their research and come to dangerous conclusions. There has been overwhelming evidence posted to prove  the safety, effectiveness and necessity of vaccines. - including the lack of causation, or even correlation, to autism and adhd and vaccines. Yet, some are dead against them without a shred of evidence.

Education and knowledge cannot be overvalued, but get your education from the right place.
I agree. That's why I didn't specify where or how to go about it. Its just my opinion and something I would do. Zeh hu
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:22:40 AM
Not sure if you're serious but I did not blow you off, in fact I responded to every "study" that you quoted and asked for access to the other studies that you quoted because I could not view them. I'm still waiting for those full studies.

As I said those last studies that you quoted are not studies or have no mention of vaccines. Either quote me something from the study or move on.

Regarding the thimerosal studies, like I mentioned I could not view them and asked you for access to them (because you obviously studied them prior to posting  ::)) You can question anything you like, but you better have some proof before signing death sentences for hundreds of thousands of people. Do you really want everyone to stop using vaccines entirely? Yes, I (as well as many respected researchers) have considered the possible risks of aluminum and have concluded that it is a necessary adjuvant for vaccines that does not appear to increase the risk of morbidity and mortality in the patients.

Research has been done regarding vaccine safety. Hundreds of them on millions of children. No one wants parents to blindly follow the doctors, but would you rather them blindly follow conspiracy theorists (like you apparently do)?
I am a father. I choose to vaccinate my daughter. Do you think that I don't ask the same questions you do? Believe me I do as does every other doctor with children. We came to the conclusion that we would rather trust what we see with the studies than try to bury our head in the sand and blame illnesses on the closest scapegoat.
You won't respond to any of the studies because you can't view the entire thing?
Fair enough. I respect your dedication to scientific method. Still a little but of a blowoff :P

I have never said anywhere in this thread that people should stop using vaccines. I do think people should question the frequency, necessity, and effectiveness of all the vaccines on the CDC schedule.
I'd hardly consider that a death sentence of hundreds of thousands.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:28:05 AM
And they were recommended by alternative medicine far before, and for far longer than they were by western medicine. What's your point?
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. Source?

Quote
Cigarettes only became a part of western medicine after it was proven to provide medical bennefits. In fact there are still many medical bennefits associated with smoking, its just that the negative outweighs the positve. Unlike vaccines
Again, source?

My point by posting those graphics was to remind us how something can from being recommended by doctors to being shown to be hazardous to human health. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:29:45 AM
You won't respond to any of the studies because you can't view the entire thing?
Fair enough. I respect your dedication to scientific method. Still a little but of a blowoff :P

I have never said anywhere in this thread that people should stop using vaccines. I do think people should question the frequency, necessity, and effectiveness of all the vaccines on the CDC schedule.
I'd hardly consider that a death sentence of hundreds of thousands.
Too many people have the same mindset as you, some are smart enough to question while still taking the vaccines. Others unfortunately are not and are putting their lives and their acquaintances lives in danger. I hope you are of the former.

I read through as much of every single study that you presented as I had access to. This includes numerous full articles to which I responded. I gave my thoughts on the ones which I did not have access to. I think it is telling that you are basing your beliefs on an abstract or more precisely a website from someone who has no real credentials who simply quoted said study. Who is the real blowoff? You (and others) say that you are interested in the truth and that there are real studies backing up the dangers of vaccines. That we should not simply trust people. Yet, you have not actually read or critically thought about these studies and instead choose to blindly trust someone else. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:31:12 AM
So you found 1 lawsuit against A Dr practicing for 35+ years

redacted for space
I quoted the article not simply to show 1 lawsuit. Respond to it coherently or this will continue to be my reply.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 11:39:36 AM
YankyDoodle go threaten your poodle

Is this the comments that make you speechless thread?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Too many people have the same mindset as you, some are smart enough to question while still taking the vaccines. Others unfortunately are not and are putting their lives and their acquaintances lives in danger. I hope you are of the former.

I read through as much of every single study that you presented as I had access to. This includes numerous full articles to which I responded. I gave my thoughts on the ones which I did not have access to. I think it is telling that you are basing your beliefs on an abstract or more precisely a website from someone who has no real credentials who simply quoted said study. Who is the real blowoff? You (and others) say that you are interested in the truth and that there are real studies backing up the dangers of vaccines. That we should not simply trust people. Yet, you have not actually read or critically thought about these studies and instead choose to blindly trust someone else. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not basing my beliefs off any abstracts. I take what I find and I bring it to a trusted and extremely well-trained medical professional
for analysis and explanation. 

For the record, I used to be heavily pro vaccination, attacking people for not vaccinating and accusing them of murder etc... Very similar to what has been going on at times in this thread.
But I admit that that opinion was out of ignorance and once it came time for me to make my own decision about my children, I started researching the other side's arguments and doing as much research as I can and spoke to a wide variety of doctors....
I think it behooves everybody here to do the same before they start mouthing off.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 10, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
YankyDoodle go threaten your poodle
Don't derail this thread with stupid comments please.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 10, 2014, 11:44:42 AM
I don't even feel that this conversation is about vaccines anymore. The idea is not to blame vaccines. The idea is just tk look into it. Like I said, I have all my vaccines and probably will give it to my children as well.
Its not even about conspiracy theories. About people making money while we suffer
I'm not trying to imply any of that. But I have noticed some weird things happen especially that advertisement (which I was right about).
From that perspective, it makes sense to look into something. Not for neurotic paranoid reasons. Just for common sense and for practical knowledge
Agree with having the right education at the right time.
Our children need to be protected from these diseases.  Vaccines are safe, overall.

However, the timing, the "rush" to fit into the nurses schedules in the Drs. office seems like an overload on an 8 week old child.
Rather that give EIGHT (the DTP as 3): Rotavirus, HIB, PCV, Polio, Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Hepatitis B into an 8 pound human,
I've asked if we can bring in our child every 4 weeks for one or two shots at a time.
Who needs so many so young? Especially if the baby is nursing and lives in "low risk communities"!?? 

Link to 8 diseases innoculations for all USA newborns at Pediatician visit #1  default:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

In summary: Yes, protect, but be smart about it... This is not something that's been medically recommended, but with common sense, there are not EIGHT foreign items being introduced intramuscularly this way.
Less likely to have anaphylactic shock or febrile seizures, high fevers, hospitalizations etc... that occur post-vaccinations.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 11:45:20 AM
Quote
More recently, that contrarian impulse has seen him create the Autism Recovery Clinic in Rolling Meadows. He treats autistic children with Lupron, an injectable drug sometimes used to chemically castrate sex offenders. Top endocrinologists and autism experts have dismissed the treatment as junk science.

Eisenstein is not board-certified in any of the specialties relevant to autism and the use of Lupron, including pediatrics, endocrinology, neurology and psychiatry.

But he is a master in the art of medical entrepreneurship. He has pitched vitamins, books and even a group health plan to his patients. His latest don't-miss-this deal: vitamin D3 and probiotic treatments to prevent swine flu -- "A $71 value, YOURS FOR ONLY $39."
Title: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 11:46:19 AM
Any evidence that the timing of vax is problematic?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:48:00 AM
For lack of anything better to post go ahead make a fool out yourself

I bring the source for what i say

Specify which bogus accusation you want me to respond to
Why do you shoot from the hip
If you can respond to the accusations in the article the same way I responded to all of the notions in Shapiro's article that should be sufficient. No sources necessary, just logical coherent responses. Thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 11:50:39 AM
Agree with having the right education at the right time.
Our children need to be protected from these diseases.  Vaccines are safe, overall.

However, the timing, the "rush" to fit into the nurses schedules in the Drs. office seems like an overload on an 8 week old child.
Rather that give EIGHT (the DTP as 3): Rotavirus, HIB, PCV, Polio, Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Hepatitis B into an 8 pound human,
I've asked if we can bring in our child every 4 weeks for one or two shots at a time.
Who needs so many so young? Especially if the baby is nursing and lives in "low risk communities"!?? 

Link to 8 diseases innoculations for all USA newborns at Pediatician visit #1  default:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

In summary: Yes, protect, but be smart about it... This is not something that's been medically recommended, but with common sense, there are not EIGHT foreign items being introduced intramuscularly this way.
Less likely to have anaphylactic shock or febrile seizures, high fevers, hospitalizations etc... that occur post-vaccinations.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Seriously, I tried.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:53:33 AM
Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not basing my beliefs off any abstracts. I take what I find and I bring it to a trusted and extremely well-trained medical professional
for analysis and explanation. 

For the record, I used to be heavily pro vaccination, attacking people for not vaccinating and accusing them of murder etc... Very similar to what has been going on at times in this thread.
But I admit that that opinion was out of ignorance and once it came time for me to make my own decision about my children, I started researching the other side's arguments and doing as much research as I can and spoke to a wide variety of doctors....
I think it behooves everybody here to do the same before they start mouthing off.
Why do you trust him specifically? Do you also consult an extremely well trained medical professional who does believe that vaccines are positive as well? wouldn't that give you a better knowledge of the situation?

You quoted the abstracts as if that was convincing evidence, as if you had read that study and determined it to be worth repeating. Why did you quote it if you had not read it?

Just out of curiosity what do you do for your children regarding vaccinations?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 11:54:36 AM
seems like an overload on an 8 week old child.

Is there any evidence to back that up? Any evidence that spacing out reduces the side effects you mentioned? Are there benefits to having them on schedule?

These are not sarcastic or rhetorical questions.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:55:53 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself. Seriously, I tried.
Like I mentioned previously, I have absolutely no problem with this and also as I mentioned earlier in the thread I do the same thing myself (to an extent). there is a huge difference between intimating that "risks" of vaccines are possibly being covered up (what you implied) and being a smart patient and avoiding unnecessary risks (what CS1 and myself along with others have said).
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 11:57:05 AM
Is there any evidence to back that up? Any evidence that spacing out reduces the side effects you mentioned? Are there benefits to having them on schedule?

These are not sarcastic or rhetorical questions.
From everything I've seen there is no evidence to back it up, but as it does not have any significant risks (generally speaking) I don't consider it to be a problem to let your parental instincts "protect" your baby from the load.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 12:05:09 PM
From everything I've seen there is no evidence to back it up, but as it does not have any significant risks (generally speaking) I don't consider it to be a problem to let your parental instincts "protect" your baby from the load.

My personal instinct was also to delay and break them up. Tiny baby screaming in pain next to "huge" needles will do that to a parent. My doctor was also happy to go along with that. I think he may have just been relived we were vaccinating!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 12:06:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. Source?
Again, source?

My point by posting those graphics was to remind us how something can from being recommended by doctors to being shown to be hazardous to human health. Nothing more.

Again. Source for what? That smoking tobacco was a homeopathic medicinal drug used by the Native Americans for hundreds of years before it was adopted by Western Medicine? I don't know that it's documented in medical journals, but it's pretty well documented in educational history text books
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 12:08:24 PM
Instincts! Seriously?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:08:53 PM
Fair enough. You can take out 7-Up, formula, and sugar.

But, cigarettes, cocaine, heroin, and DDT, are all things which were recommended by doctors at their time but later shown to very harmful to human health. Not sure what you find deceitful about that.
Where is your source that medicine overwhelmingly recommended these products? Where are the countless studies that were performed proving there safety and efficacy? I didn't live then, so I can't speak for medicine but before I am forced to defend or respond, I would like to see sources that these were actually "pushed" by medicine?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:09:24 PM
Instincts! Seriously?
Yes, if there is no harm done, what's the problem?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:10:51 PM
@Thinktwice @churn
It's amazing how we have the entire vaccine spectrum from the Rush Limbaughs to the Barack Obamas and everything in between!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 12:14:04 PM
Yes, if there is no harm done, what's the problem?
No problem.

You wanna make multiple trips to the doc (risk of picking up strep and viruses) instead of getting it all done at once, fine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 12:16:01 PM
@Thinktwice @churn
It's amazing how we have the entire vaccine spectrum from the Rush Limbaughs to the Barack Obamas and everything in between!
Im not a kook. I just don't think that there is any room for discussion on this topic. Its not even debatable. You are from the rational ones here, and all you got for the other side is instincts.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 12:17:52 PM
Instincts! Seriously?

You clearly missed the question of whether there is evidence to back up the instincts, and the fact that those who brought up instincts have been decidedly pro vaccinations on this thread.

My kid is being vaccinated on the prescribed schedule because instincts - not evidence - were the only thing stopping us.  But that doesn't mean you should knock parental instinct, or always stay on script, no matter the discussion.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:24:10 PM
Im not a kook. I just don't think that there is any room for discussion on this topic. Its not even debatable. You are from the rational ones here, and all you got for the other side is instincts.
You are acting like a kook. The entire argument for vaccines is based on the soundness and breadth of the evidence in its favor and the dangers of not vaccinating. If you remove those two factors (there is no real evidence that I have seen indicating that it would be dangerous to stagger the vaccines slightly) then it is just silly to argue so vehemently against it. Might it put the children at greater risk of picking up a disease at the doctor's office? In the lack of compelling evidence, everyone can weigh the pros and cons and decide these things for themselves.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 12:32:30 PM
Like I mentioned previously, I have absolutely no problem with this and also as I mentioned earlier in the thread I do the same thing myself (to an extent). there is a huge difference between intimating that "risks" of vaccines are possibly being covered up (what you implied) and being a smart patient and avoiding unnecessary risks (what CS1 and myself along with others have said).
I wasnt trying to imply that they are covering things up. I implied and said that these things have happened in the past, so why not be cautious and try to do some research. There's a difference. I'd like to prevent problems. Not create them.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
You are acting like a kook. The entire argument for vaccines is based on the soundness and breadth of the evidence in its favor and the dangers of not vaccinating. If you remove those two factors (there is no real evidence that I have seen indicating that it would be dangerous to stagger the vaccines slightly) then it is just silly to argue so vehemently against it. Might it put the children at greater risk of picking up a disease at the doctor's office? In the lack of compelling evidence, everyone can weigh the pros and cons and decide these things for themselves.
It sounds like your premise is that vaccines are risky, but the good out weighs the bad. Therefore you feel that staggering them mitigates risk.
My argument is, that vaccines carry such minimal risk, it doesn't even warrant the extra doc visit. There is literally nothing to be concerned about.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:38:21 PM
I wasnt trying to imply that they are covering things up. I implied and said that these things have happened in the past, so why not be cautious and try to do some research. There's a difference. I'd like to prevent problems. Not create them.
Fair enough I apologize, it seems I misunderstood you. I just get worked up because unfortunately there are uneducated people who "do their own research" and stop receiving vaccines based on online testimonials. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 12:41:02 PM
It sounds like your premise is that vaccines are risky, but the good out weighs the bad. Therefore you feel that staggering them mitigates risk.
My argument is, that vaccines carry such minimal risk, it doesn't even warrant the extra doc visit. There is literally nothing to be concerned about.
We've been down this road before... Anytime you put foreign stuff in your system it could be "risky". Compound that by putting it in a young baby and people have reason to be nervous. The evidence doesn't support it and therefore people would be crazy to put their babies at risk of vaccine-preventable diseases but to pretend that there is "literally nothing to be concerned about" is untrue for anything especially medication. There is always what to be concerned about.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 12:43:44 PM
We've been down this road before... Anytime you put foreign stuff in your system it could be "risky". Compound that by putting it in a young baby and people have reason to be nervous. The evidence doesn't support it and therefore people would be crazy to put their babies at risk of vaccine-preventable diseases but to pretend that there is "literally nothing to be concerned about" is untrue for anything especially medication. There is always what to be concerned about.
vaccines are just dead viruses. (Basically)
Its not some magic potion cooked up by a mad chemist in the basement of an enormous conglomerate owned by the CIA...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 12:52:28 PM
vaccines are just dead viruses. (Basically)
Its not some magic potion cooked up by a mad chemist in the basement of an enormous conglomerate owned by the CIA...
I thought it was by large corporations out to kill everyone just to make some money
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 12:55:46 PM
I thought it was by large corporations out to kill everyone just to make some money

It is a conspiracy by the drug companies to get us to take just one or two doses of a vaccine to prevent us from getting sick so we don't need to use their medications for long periods of time.

Wait, someone needs to get fired.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Chaikel on April 10, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
It is a conspiracy by the drug companies to get us to take just one or two doses of a vaccine to prevent us from getting sick so we don't need to use their medications for long periods of time.

Wait, someone needs to get fired.
More likely it's Mafia tactics to kill off all those who don't kowtow to the drug companies
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 01:22:09 PM
Fair enough I apologize, it seems I misunderstood you. I just get worked up because unfortunately there are uneducated people who "do their own research" and stop receiving vaccines based on online testimonials. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.
No worries- I totally understand.
I have a relative who is also a chiropractor and she is very into holistic and naturopathic remedies. She (I believe I can accurately say) has done TONS of research into this topic. I'm talking about primary research articles and journals from the AMA and other related sources. She decided for herself not to vaccinate her children when they were young. Again, her decision, and she did not force this upon other people and create a worldwide epidemic.

It's all based on what you feel is good for yourself.

-I think I might be done with this thread for now. PEACE OUT :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 01:43:04 PM

No worries- I totally understand.
I have a relative who is also a chiropractor and she is very into holistic and naturopathic remedies. She (I believe I can accurately say) has done TONS of research into this topic. I'm talking about primary research articles and journals from the AMA and other related sources. She decided for herself not to vaccinate her children when they were young. Again, her decision, and she did not force this upon other people and create a worldwide epidemic.

It's all based on what you feel is good for yourself.

-I think I might be done with this thread for now. PEACE OUT :)

Hmmm. Chiropractor. Makes sense.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 01:43:53 PM
Even though you said you're done here, realize this:

she did not force this upon other people and create a worldwide epidemic.

It's all based on what you feel is good for yourself.

No, this a cheap kop out.  Not vaccinating effects everyone. That is why people get so worked up about it. It is not just a personal choice that affects your own family. It is a highly selfish, dangerous practice.

On the contrary, let her provide the evidence and share it with the masses. If vaccinations are so dangerous, why keep it private? And if she is keeping it to herself so her children can rely on herd immunity because of the rest of us who do vaccinate, why, that is might selfish and disgusting behavior for someone who makes a living healing others.

Measles, mumps, whooping cough and more are all things our communities are suffering from because INDIVIDUALS are deciding to defy reason and evidence.

I know this is harsh, but it is a harsh reality. Peace out indeed.

a chiropractor and she is very into holistic and naturopathic remedies.  .....  She decided for herself not to vaccinate her children .....

You don't say. When the naturopathic remedies get rid of polio (speak to someone over 50-60 to see how widespread and debilitating polio was) please let us know.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 01:51:17 PM
Even though you said you're done here, realize this:

No, this a cheap kop out.  Not vaccinating effects everyone. That is why people get so worked up about it. It is not just a personal choice that affects your own family. It is a highly selfish, dangerous practice.

On the contrary, let her provide the evidence and share it with the masses. If vaccinations are so dangerous, why keep it private? And if she is keeping it to herself so her children can rely on herd immunity because of the rest of us who do vaccinate, why, that is might selfish and disgusting behavior for someone who makes a living healing others.

Measles, mumps, whooping cough and more are all things our communities are suffering from because INDIVIDUALS are deciding to defy reason and evidence.

I know this is harsh, but it is a harsh reality. Peace out indeed.

You don't say. When the naturopathic remedies get rid of polio (speak to someone over 50-60 to see how widespread and debilitating polio was) please let us know.
+100

Really well put!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 04:10:15 PM
Even though you said you're done here, realize this:

No, this a cheap kop out.  Not vaccinating effects everyone. That is why people get so worked up about it. It is not just a personal choice that affects your own family. It is a highly selfish, dangerous practice.

On the contrary, let her provide the evidence and share it with the masses. If vaccinations are so dangerous, why keep it private? And if she is keeping it to herself so her children can rely on herd immunity because of the rest of us who do vaccinate, why, that is might selfish and disgusting behavior for someone who makes a living healing others.

Measles, mumps, whooping cough and more are all things our communities are suffering from because INDIVIDUALS are deciding to defy reason and evidence.

I know this is harsh, but it is a harsh reality. Peace out indeed.

You don't say. When the naturopathic remedies get rid of polio (speak to someone over 50-60 to see how widespread and debilitating polio was) please let us know.

It wasn't meant to be a kop out. I really have no interest participating in a thread where everyone is rude to each other and nobody respects others opinions. If you read my reply accurately and didn't quote that which you wanted to, you would have seen that she decided not to vaccinate her children WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG. keyword: young.
Many family practitioners that I have had experience with have agreed with that philosophy. Each parent has the RIGHT to chose whether or not they will do it. Right or wrong, not your decision, but from what she has told me- research has shown that combinations of vaccines can be dangerous for children so young- I believe her and that is the practice that I will hopefully follow one day.

Its not a kop out. You just didn't read my post.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Oh... And peace out  :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 10, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
It is not just a personal choice that affects your own family. It is a highly selfish, dangerous practice.
I enjoy reading this thread and had a few chuckles along the way but this is a very dangerous road to go down.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 10, 2014, 04:21:43 PM
vaccines are just dead viruses. (Basically)
Its not some magic potion cooked up by a mad chemist in the basement of an enormous conglomerate owned by the CIA...
actually, most educated people have no problem with the dead viruses in the vials.

I'm pro-vaccine.

It's the chemicals, preservatives, and varied ingredients that are in each does that are additives in order to
enable a vial to sit in a box or on a shelf for 10+ years
and remain germ-free as each syringe is entered to extract the necessary quantity for each immunization that are not as safe in certain quantities.

Those ingredients (which vary by drug manufacturer) have caused febrile seizures and neurological reactions in some cases.

The CDC's perspective on febrile seizures & immunizations 2-5% of children:       http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/MMRV/qa_FebrileSeizures.html
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 04:26:45 PM
Like the preservatives in virtually everything else we consume?

(Unless you a grass eating vegan...)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 04:30:40 PM
http://shotofprevention.com/2013/09/12/legal-responsibilities-in-choosing-not-to-vaccinate/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 10, 2014, 04:46:04 PM
Like the preservatives in virtually everything else we consume?

(Unless you a grass eating vegan...)
swallowing or inhaling formaldehyde/thimersol as a 100+ lb adult is much healthier than injecting it into the muscles and bloodstream of an 8lb newborn.
Aluminum adjuvantsand mercury have less of an impact when traveling through the the digestive system than when
affecting the neurological system via intramuscular injections. 

The CDC itself - The Center for Disease Control - (NOT the questionable mercola) link that 'admits' that there are these added ingredients :
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/vaccine-decision/ingredients.html
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: gavhaller on April 10, 2014, 04:50:46 PM
swallowing or inhaling formaldehyde/thimersol as a 100+ lb adult is much healthier than injecting it into the muscles and bloodstream of an 8lb newborn.
Aluminum adjuvantsand mercury have less of an impact when traveling through the the digestive system than when
affecting the neurological system via intramuscular injections. 

The CDC itself - The Center for Disease Control - (NOT the questionable mercola) link that 'admits' that there are these added ingredients :
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/vaccine-decision/ingredients.html

+freakin1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 10, 2014, 04:57:33 PM
It wasn't meant to be a kop out. I really have no interest participating in a thread where everyone is rude to each other and nobody respects others opinions. If you read my reply accurately and didn't quote that which you wanted to, you would have seen that she decided not to vaccinate her children WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG. keyword: young.
Many family practitioners that I have had experience with have agreed with that philosophy. Each parent has the RIGHT to chose whether or not they will do it. Right or wrong, not your decision, but from what she has told me- research has shown that combinations of vaccines can be dangerous for children so young- I believe her and that is the practice that I will hopefully follow one day.

Its not a kop out. You just didn't read my post.
When yehuda wrote 'kop out' I could excuse it as a one-off typo but for you to repeat it? and twice?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
It wasn't meant to be a kop out. I really have no interest participating in a thread where everyone is rude to each other and nobody respects others opinions. If you read my reply accurately and didn't quote that which you wanted to, you would have seen that she decided not to vaccinate her children WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG. keyword: young.
Many family practitioners that I have had experience with have agreed with that philosophy. Each parent has the RIGHT to chose whether or not they will do it. Right or wrong, not your decision, but from what she has told me- research has shown that combinations of vaccines can be dangerous for children so young- I believe her and that is the practice that I will hopefully follow one day.

Its not a kop out. You just didn't read my post.

I did. There are reasons why babies specifically are given the vaccines, and not adults. I can't point you to the studies now, as I'm getting on a plane soon, but would be happy to do so in the near future, if you so desire.
Yes, it is your right to choose, but if you choose something which affects everyone, you better have proof and evidence behind you. I have yet to see that evidence in this thread or anywhere else.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 10, 2014, 05:12:15 PM
+freakin1
:)

Best compliment of the day.

I believe in vaccines. I believe in the facts. I believe in being educated. However, as you mentioned, common sense and thinking smart is of top priority.

when the pediatricians are super pushy and they explain that the chart is geared to the urban areas of high risk, then it's time to take a look and see what the goals are.  We were told that as long as they get what's needed by 2 years, we can select (within reason) when to come in and have them done in a timely, responsible manner. They told me that it's too hard to do that for everyone -- it's much easier to give the "Pediarix" which is 5-in-1.
Sounds like a lot for a youngster.
it's way too hard to have the nurses keep track of so many different things, so they'll do our schedule request 'just' for us...

(We got the message that this is efficient for the office, easier for paperwork, insurance billing and the nurses.
 this is mandated due to high-risk areas, but it's not needed, overall for the typical 2-4 month old who is at home and nursing.) 

Basically, if we, as DDFers can calculate which retailers, which BB rules, which GCs, which VRs, which spending by # of months,
then we can also figure out how to innoculate our children with their 20 shots by 18 months spread out every 4-6 weeks instead of
all 20 shots in only 4 visits.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
I enjoy reading this thread and had a few chuckles along the way but this is a very dangerous road to go down.

I, too, have enjoyed the chuckles, many provided by you, so thanks. I fail to see how this is any more dangerous or personal than the others before this post.

Relying on herd immunity and not vaccinating is selfish. Vaccines prevent illnesses, ergo not vaccinating is dangerous.

My intention was not to offend.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 10, 2014, 05:25:11 PM

US  vax schedule is crowded Japan's is much more spaced out & infant mortality rate in US 3.5 times as high

Caused by what?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 10, 2014, 05:31:06 PM
That is  there is "proof" that vaccines are safe & effective. do you have any ?

As I said, I'm traveling and can point to all of that in the near future. For starters, go up on this very thread and there are plenty of links.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 10, 2014, 05:46:12 PM
I, too, have enjoyed the chuckles, many provided by you, so thanks. I fail to see how this is any more dangerous or personal than the others before this post.

Relying on herd immunity and not vaccinating is selfish. Vaccines prevent illnesses, ergo not vaccinating is dangerous.

My intention was not to offend.
Which vaccines are we talking about? As an example I do not get the Flu shot. Am I being selfish and dangerous to others? How about for religious reasons parents that do not have their children vaccinated? Should they go against their religion? This is way I think it is a dangerous road to go down.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 10, 2014, 06:02:57 PM
Can you please explain to me this UN report  how come USA has 3.5 times as many babies die in their 1st year as Japan when they give 1/4 of the vaccines in 1st year
Maybe it has to do with more babies being born to crack heads and heroin addicts in the US. Maybe it has to do with the child being breast feed or not. Maybe it has to do with the air we breathe. To be honest I have no idea.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 06:03:18 PM
:)

Best compliment of the day.

I believe in vaccines. I believe in the facts. I believe in being educated. However, as you mentioned, common sense and thinking smart is of top priority.

when the pediatricians are super pushy and they explain that the chart is geared to the urban areas of high risk, then it's time to take a look and see what the goals are.  We were told that as long as they get what's needed by 2 years, we can select (within reason) when to come in and have them done in a timely, responsible manner.
(We got the message that this is efficient for the office, easier for paperwork, insurance billing and the nurses.
 this is mandated due to high-risk areas, but it's not needed, overall for the typical 2-4 month old who is at home and nursing.) 

Where I live, moms go back to work at six weeks. A few local babies were murdered by whooping cough at daycares that were intimidated against Mandating vaccination.
Its very risky to rely on some kinda intuition that has no benefit, and avoids no risk.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 10, 2014, 06:06:33 PM
Where I live, moms go back to work at six weeks. A few local babies were murdered by whooping cough at daycares that were intimidated against Mandating vaccination.
Its very risky to rely on some kinda intuition that has no benefit, and avoids no risk.
agree -- Which is why I wrote:
1) why those original children & adults who spread it should have been vaccinated
and # 2) : 

this is mandated due to high-risk areas, but it's not needed, overall for the typical 2-4 month old who is at home and nursing.) 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: YankyDoodle on April 10, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
This has been an interesting thread. Thank you to those that have kept it civil and engaged in a logical discussion. I am going to sign off for now, as I feel that my contributions are not having their desired effect. It seems that logic may not play a decisive role in an emotionally charged arena. I especially find it difficult to continue the discussion as some individuals do not respond to the flow of the discussion. I think I have tried to be open-minded and consider all possibilities and I have responded (mostly respectfully) with facts or logical arguments whenever I disagreed with a stated position. I hope a certain level of respect for logic and actual scientific data is continued to be upheld. Good luck and stay safe and healthy.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 10, 2014, 06:28:25 PM
This has been an interesting thread. Thank you to those that have kept it civil and engaged in a logical discussion. I am going to sign off for now, as I feel that my contributions are not having their desired effect. It seems that logic may not play a decisive role in an emotionally charged arena. I especially find it difficult to continue the discussion as some individuals do not respond to the flow of the discussion. I think I have tried to be open-minded and consider all possibilities and I have responded (mostly respectfully) with facts or logical arguments whenever I disagreed with a stated position. I hope a certain level of respect for logic and actual scientific data is continued to be upheld. Good luck and stay safe and healthy.
+1 TY!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Barryg on April 13, 2014, 12:35:39 AM
:)

Best compliment of the day.

I believe in vaccines. I believe in the facts. I believe in being educated. However, as you mentioned, common sense and thinking smart is of top priority.

when the pediatricians are super pushy and they explain that the chart is geared to the urban areas of high risk, then it's time to take a look and see what the goals are.  We were told that as long as they get what's needed by 2 years, we can select (within reason) when to come in and have them done in a timely, responsible manner. They told me that it's too hard to do that for everyone -- it's much easier to give the "Pediarix" which is 5-in-1.
Sounds like a lot for a youngster.
it's way too hard to have the nurses keep track of so many different things, so they'll do our schedule request 'just' for us...

(We got the message that this is efficient for the office, easier for paperwork, insurance billing and the nurses.
 this is mandated due to high-risk areas, but it's not needed, overall for the typical 2-4 month old who is at home and nursing.) 

Basically, if we, as DDFers can calculate which retailers, which BB rules, which GCs, which VRs, which spending by # of months,
then we can also figure out how to innoculate our children with their 20 shots by 18 months spread out every 4-6 weeks instead of
all 20 shots in only 4 visits.

Who ever said that there are 20 mandatory shots needed in first 18 months? Why not spread it over 10 years? (Being 100% serious with this Q)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 13, 2014, 02:00:50 AM
Who ever said that there are 20 mandatory shots needed in first 18 months? Why not spread it over 10 years? (Being 100% serious with this Q)
It's in the link that I posted:  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf
(20 is the 'diseases'. Some are 3-in-1, such as the DTP. Impacts that child.

Spreading for the first 12-15 months may work if done right. Cannot be spread out over the course of 10 years because:
1) More doses are needed at age 2, and another 6 doses needed in Kindergarten.
2) susceptible to several diseases before age 10. Protection is needed.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 13, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
i agree that we start to early maybe starting @ age 120 years will do even less harm
But then you would start blaming all the 120 year olds' deaths on the vaccines they just started taking :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: az on April 24, 2014, 05:45:05 PM
"Immunity in the Jewish Community

Contents
Jeff Levin from Lakewood, New Jersey wrote:

Dear Rabbi,
Are we required to immunize our children? Since the scientific knowledge is not 100%
accurate and there is ample proof that vaccines in fact damage children permanently and sometimes they can cause death ... are we allowed to vaccinate children?

Dear Jeff Levin,

Our Sages teach that in medical matters we should rely on the experts in each generation. Today, there are differences of opinion among doctors concerning which immunizations are helpful, safe or advisable to receive. Therefore, as with any medical issue, you are required to find a doctor with sufficient expertise in the subject such that his opinion may be relied upon.

There's no blanket answer concerning all vaccines, but certainly many childhood diseases have been practically eliminated or reduced since their introduction. Smallpox, for example, once a great killer of children, is today extremely rare. On the other hand, some vaccinations are of highly questionable value. Find a doctor whom you trust to help select the proper immunizations for your child."

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask174.htm (http://ohr.edu/ask/ask174.htm)

i doubt that any of our doctors qualify [regarding this topic]
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 24, 2014, 06:03:22 PM
They qualify to do everything else> What do you think they do in school for 7+ years??
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 24, 2014, 06:06:40 PM

"Immunity in the Jewish Community

Contents
Jeff Levin from Lakewood, New Jersey wrote:

Dear Rabbi,
Are we required to immunize our children? Since the scientific knowledge is not 100%
accurate and there is ample proof that vaccines in fact damage children permanently and sometimes they can cause death ... are we allowed to vaccinate children?

Dear Jeff Levin,

Our Sages teach that in medical matters we should rely on the experts in each generation. Today, there are differences of opinion among doctors concerning which immunizations are helpful, safe or advisable to receive. Therefore, as with any medical issue, you are required to find a doctor with sufficient expertise in the subject such that his opinion may be relied upon.

There's no blanket answer concerning all vaccines, but certainly many childhood diseases have been practically eliminated or reduced since their introduction. Smallpox, for example, once a great killer of children, is today extremely rare. On the other hand, some vaccinations are of highly questionable value. Find a doctor whom you trust to help select the proper immunizations for your child."

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask174.htm (http://ohr.edu/ask/ask174.htm)

i doubt that any of our doctors qualify

Where do you go when you are sick?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 24, 2014, 06:42:48 PM
Where do you go when you are sick?


The mikva
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 27, 2014, 05:39:40 PM
I know a few Doctors in NY who have opened their eyes  & no longer recommend any vaccines

http://www.drpalevsky.com/ MD (long wait for appointment)

http://www.raphaelkellmanmd.com/#!about1/c7sq MD (not cheap)

http://www.raphaelkellmanmd.com/#!about1/c7sq PA  (most insurance)

Are number 2 and 3 the same person?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 27, 2014, 06:27:03 PM
in school they get brainwashed,programmed & they party
The plot thickens...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: bubbles on April 27, 2014, 06:59:20 PM
I know a few Doctors in NY who have opened their eyes  & no longer recommend any vaccines

http://www.drpalevsky.com/ MD (long wait for appointment)


Does that means he has a lot of sick patients?  :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 27, 2014, 07:04:09 PM
Of course it makes sense to skip those vaccines.  :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/04/24/cdc-reports-13-measles-outbreaks-in-the-u-s-most-cases-since-1996/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 27, 2014, 08:33:46 PM
Of course it makes sense to skip those vaccines.  :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/04/24/cdc-reports-13-measles-outbreaks-in-the-u-s-most-cases-since-1996/
Send them to:
yes he sees may kids who have been sickened by vaccines . Autism Asthma Arthritis ADD ADHD  that's just the A
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 27, 2014, 09:20:56 PM
Of course it makes sense to skip those vaccines.  :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/04/24/cdc-reports-13-measles-outbreaks-in-the-u-s-most-cases-since-1996/
11 out of 58 infected were fully vaccinated. That ratio is a lot lower than the 97% effective rate claimed by the CDC.
This is an example where you need to use your head. If you are traveling to a 3rd world country like the Philippines, especially when there is an outbreak, the case for vaccines gets a lot stronger.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 27, 2014, 11:34:12 PM
http://www.childinfo.org/files/immunization_summary_en.pdf (http://www.childinfo.org/files/immunization_summary_en.pdf)
Is it the schedule that "makes problems" or the vaccine? You are looking at the wrong numbers. A much higher percentage in Japan are vaccinated than in Canada notwithstanding the schedule. That is, of course, besides the miniscule sample size of 4 countries. Arvach arva tzarich.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 07:58:28 AM
11 out of 58 infected were fully vaccinated. That ratio is a lot lower than the 97% effective rate claimed by the CDC.
This is an example where you need to use your head. If you are traveling to a 3rd world country like the Philippines, especially when there is an outbreak, the case for vaccines gets a lot stronger.
http://www.vosizneias.com/162677/2014/04/27/2317-vaccines-prevent-more-than-700000-child-deaths-in-the-u-s/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 28, 2014, 09:40:51 AM
Even though you said you're done here, realize this:

No, this a cheap kop out.  Not vaccinating effects everyone. That is why people get so worked up about it. It is not just a personal choice that affects your own family. It is a highly selfish, dangerous practice.

On the contrary, let her provide the evidence and share it with the masses. If vaccinations are so dangerous, why keep it private? And if she is keeping it to herself so her children can rely on herd immunity because of the rest of us who do vaccinate, why, that is might selfish and disgusting behavior for someone who makes a living healing others.

Measles, mumps, whooping cough and more are all things our communities are suffering from because INDIVIDUALS are deciding to defy reason and evidence.

I know this is harsh, but it is a harsh reality. Peace out indeed.

You don't say. When the naturopathic remedies get rid of polio (speak to someone over 50-60 to see how widespread and debilitating polio was) please let us know.
If you are wondering why people who choose not to vaccinate keep it to themselves, you just answered your own question. It's because of people like you who don't realize that vaccination is a personal choice that should be made by weighing the risks and benefits of each side, and lambast people and shame people who don't follow your opinion. I hate to break it to you but artificially induced herd immunity is a complete scam. It doesn't work. Just look at any recent outbreak of a disease vaccination is supposed to prevent and you'll see how vaccinated and unvaccinated people are affected almost indiscriminately.

The risks of the diseases that vaccines claim to prevent is highly overstated these days while the risks of the actual vaccines is vastly understated. When you are surrounded by good
Medical care, fresh food and produce, good sanitation, and a healthy start to life, the necessity of vaccinating goes way down. That's why it is a personal choice and that's why you should respect the choice of the parents that choose not to vaccinate.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on April 28, 2014, 09:47:28 AM
It's fascinating how after all these years it still hasn't been proven beyond any reason of a doubt one way or the other. Even dr's & scientists are still all over the place on it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 10:25:23 AM
It's fascinating how after all these years it still hasn't been proven beyond any reason of a doubt one way or the other. Even dr's & scientists are still all over the place on it.
lie
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on April 28, 2014, 10:36:55 AM
lie
I happen to be with you on this one. I don't understand why some dr's are still so adamantly against it.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Menachem613 on April 28, 2014, 10:45:17 AM

If you are wondering why people who choose not to vaccinate keep it to themselves, you just answered your own question. It's because of people like you who don't realize that vaccination is a personal choice that should be made by weighing the risks and benefits of each side, and lambast people and shame people who don't follow your opinion. I hate to break it to you but artificially induced herd immunity is a complete scam. It doesn't work. Just look at any recent outbreak of a disease vaccination is supposed to prevent and you'll see how vaccinated and unvaccinated people are affected almost indiscriminately.

The risks of the diseases that vaccines claim to prevent is highly overstated these days while the risks of the actual vaccines is vastly understated. When you are surrounded by good
Medical care, fresh food and produce, good sanitation, and a healthy start to life, the necessity of vaccinating goes way down. That's why it is a personal choice and that's why you should respect the choice of the parents that choose not to vaccinate.

It's a personal choice until it affects others.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 10:55:39 AM
If you are wondering why people who choose not to vaccinate keep it to themselves, you just answered your own question. It's because of people like you who don't realize that vaccination is a personal choice that should be made by weighing the risks and benefits of each side, and lambast people and shame people who don't follow your opinion. I hate to break it to you but artificially induced herd immunity is a complete scam. It doesn't work. Just look at any recent outbreak of a disease vaccination is supposed to prevent and you'll see how vaccinated and unvaccinated people are affected almost indiscriminately.

The risks of the diseases that vaccines claim to prevent is highly overstated these days while the risks of the actual vaccines is vastly understated. When you are surrounded by good
Medical care,
fresh food and produce, good sanitation, and a healthy start to life, the necessity of vaccinating goes way down. That's why it is a personal choice and that's why you should respect the choice of the parents that choose not to vaccinate.
I thought doctors are evil nutcases who are brainwashed in school???

If gd forbid someone got cancer, would you send him to the voodoo naturalist and take vitamin D? I sure hope not! and I think you are implying that you too would seek the best modern medicine has to offer. Why then do you think vaccines are some kind of poison? You gotta be consistent.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 28, 2014, 11:14:24 AM
I thought doctors are evil nutcases who are brainwashed in school???

If gd forbid someone got cancer, would you send him to the voodoo naturalist and take vitamin D? I sure hope not! and I think you are implying that you too would seek the best modern medicine has to offer. Why then do you think vaccines are some kind of poison? You gotta be consistent.
Not sure where you got that idea from.
Benefiting from modern medicine doesn't mean blindly taking everything that modern medicine produces. I believe in an integrative approach that combines the best of both fields.

(Just btw, I know personally of someone with cancer who failed to respond to every conventional medical cancer treatment. She went to a naturopathic doctor who shrunk the tumor down to 1/8 of its original size in 3 months  and it went into remission. Like I said, take the best of both approaches.)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 11:39:14 AM
How many natural cancer survivors do you want to meet ?
Do you know any it did not work for?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 11:44:29 AM
Do you know any it did not work for?
Here's one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Health_issues) that comes to mind.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 28, 2014, 01:22:25 PM
We really need a new poll now that winter is over for who got the vaccine and who got the flu.

Me: no vaccine, no flu.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 01:31:23 PM
So you found 1 - & another one ( Achas v'acchas :) )

Who said every natural cure works every time ?


Thanks for making my point clear, you can't base anything on anecdotal evidence...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 01:37:45 PM
Open you eyes take of you sun glasses 8) American cancer society says cancer @ all time high
If you live longer do you have a higher risk of getting cancer?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 01:40:08 PM
so is is that a valid reason to commit suicide ?
Do you have reading comprehension issues?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 01:43:38 PM
so is is that a valid reason to commit suicide ?
I was thinking more along the lines of those who choose not to get vaccinated. They have a higher risk of dying early so this will lower their risk of getting cancer. Now they can have their cake and eat it too.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 01:46:35 PM
So you found 1 - & another one ( Achas v'acchas :) )

Who said every natural cure works every time ?

Open you eyes take of you sun glasses 8) American cancer society says cancer @ all time high

 http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer
So vaccines cause cancer? (1+1=Whatever you want!)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 01:49:26 PM
So vaccines cause cancer?
Check with your doctor. The memo just came out.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 01:59:32 PM
Check with your doctor. The memo just came out.  :)
That was only for the doctors who saw the light... 8)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 04:08:34 PM

Open you eyes take of you sun glasses 8) American cancer society says cancer @ all time high

 http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer
One what are you basing that it's connected to vaccines? sounds more lake a bube mayse
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
One what are you basing that, sounds more lake a bube mayse
So you believe if nobody was ever vaccinated we would all live longer.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 28, 2014, 05:26:04 PM
Less SIDS...
You seem to have a problem giving a straight answer. A yes or no will just work just fine.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: doodle on April 28, 2014, 06:26:55 PM
THINK TWICE  only has opinions on vaccinations .  ( if you dont vaccinate your pretty hung up about it  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 07:50:36 PM
You seem to have a problem accepting proof of the truth

Did you offer any?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 28, 2014, 07:57:43 PM
Only for those who want to see it 8)
I guess I don't want it badly enough...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 28, 2014, 08:57:05 PM
http://www.betternaturalhealing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/vaccine-and-infant-mortality-article.pdf

usa gov data showing infant death rate drastically  higher when babies get more vaccines
you didn't read the article. It is not a government article and again is based on vaccination schedules not coverage. Can you give any coherent explanation as to why the schedule makes a difference? They brush it of saying that all are above 90% coverage anyhow and therefore should not make a difference. Isn't coverage the only thing which makes a difference?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
Now the ones seeking a scapegoat for autism are trying to legitimize themselves missionary style!
This magazine was just distributed in my neighborhood.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
What chutzpah !?

How dare you pour salt on the wounds of the victims. Instead of being grateful Hashem it didn't happen to you & the efforts of numerous selfless people  who spent time &  money to educate the public

here's the paradox: you mention thanking hashem but still seek to invent some mental conspiracy blaming doctors for illnesses.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 10:52:42 PM
>:(Chutzpah has no limits!!!  :o

So you call Rav Malkiel Kotler, Rav Elye Ber Vachtfogel & Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky - no less then mental conspiritors ::)

This mag was printed with their encouragement
You lie, and lie. They never lent their support to your cause. The publishers are close to being rodfim imho.

Maybe rabbi kotlers wife, she is an reportedly an avid naturalist...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: ABisselSechel on April 28, 2014, 10:58:14 PM
Just received the mag myself. Loaded with information.

Autism was not the first or last issue addressed, so I'm unsure what your complaint is about.

Their point is clear though, read the mag and do your own research. Then draw your own conclusions. If you don't want to, your loss. If you are afraid of the possibility of having been mislead and prefer to stick with your old beliefs, feel free to do so. No body is forcing you not to vaccinate. Last I heard it was the other way around. ;)

Someone was kind enough to show you information that your healthcare practitioner, federal government, global media, and society at large have been trying to hide from you, and me. I say, thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 11:04:17 PM
Just received the mag myself. Loaded with information.

Autism was not the first or last issue addressed, so I'm unsure what your complaint is about.

Their point is clear though, read the mag and do your own research. Then draw your own conclusions. If you don't want to, your loss. If you are afraid of the possibility of having been mislead and prefer to stick with your old beliefs, feel free to do so. No body is forcing you not to vaccinate. Last I heard it was the other way around. ;)

Someone was kind enough to show you information that your healthcare practitioner, federal government, global media, and society at large have been trying to hide from you, and me. I say, thank you.
You admit to having a bissel sechel, why not just ask a licensed and trained doctor that you trust for all you other healthcare needs instead of some mothers of children who are nebach farbissen about their tzoros?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 28, 2014, 11:26:14 PM
And they used to do frontal lobotomies also.  Science is a lot less about "knowledge" than it is about "scientists' current best theory."
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 11:35:22 PM
And they used to do frontal lobotomies also.  Science is a lot less about "knowledge" than it is about "scientists' current best theory."
So whats wrong with that, is "thinking twice"better?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: PlatinumGuy on April 28, 2014, 11:38:18 PM
My trusted MD stopped vaxing his kids & his patients

Ask your "trusted MD" why he gives HPV to frum boys & girls or why he never shows you the patient information sheet that comes with every shot ( it may even be  a legal requirement)

Because the Dr correctly assumes that 99.99% of his customers don't care to see.

The RAMBAM was a naturalist,

Anyone who has actually studied the Rambam knows without a shadow of doubt that he would use the most advance medicine available. I believe he paskens to that effect in regards to medicne from Issuei hanaa etc.

Halacha (in mefurash gemara) is actually very clear that you must abide by professional medical authority (in RE to Yom Kippur, etc(.
modern medi-sin tries to outsmart Hashem
How's Modern medicine even different than traditional medicine? How on earth is it attempting to 'outsmart' hashed?

Neetan Rishus Larofeh Lerpah means when God wants to heal someone, a DR is enabled to heal him. Otherwise it wouldn't work at all

How many years did it take for Docs to understand that that circumcision before 7 days is unsafe  due to liver not producing enough vitamin k to heal the wound

Where does it say the din of milah on the 8th day is because of health reasons?

How many tonsils were removed by surgeons believing in evolution thinking they have no function
And what happened to those that had there's removed?

The more you believe in Hashem the more you  avoid messing with nature

Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman
So now all you are left with is name calling
You havent raised a single objective point. All you've done is accused others.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: ABisselSechel on April 28, 2014, 11:45:14 PM
You admit to having a bissel sechel, why not just ask a licensed and trained doctor that you trust for all you other healthcare needs instead of some mothers of children who are nebach farbissen about their tzoros?

Why not ask your doctor? I've never had an intelligent conversation with my doctor on the subject. More like screaming matches. Which he initiated (the screaming that is, not the conversation)

Why not use your own sechel and think for yourself instead of downloading that power to your doctor.

Licenses are good for driving. A human being is capable of thinking without a license.

Your references to suffering children's mothers are just cruel and inappropriate.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 28, 2014, 11:51:31 PM
Its the truth and it hurts, I know. There is no intention to put them down. It is beneficial for people to understand the motive behind the mothers waging this dangerous battle that negatively affects the health and wellbeing of not only their own children.
The motive is clearly to seek a scapegoat to blame for certain issues. Its sad and pathetic.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 28, 2014, 11:56:45 PM
http://www.childinfo.org/files/immunization_summary_en.pdf


Is it the schedule that "makes problems" or the vaccine? You are looking at the wrong numbers. A much higher percentage in Japan are vaccinated than in Canada notwithstanding the schedule. That is, of course, besides the miniscule sample size of 4 countries. Arvach arva tzarich.


you didn't read the article. It is not a government article and again is based on vaccination schedules not coverage. Can you give any coherent explanation as to why the schedule makes a difference? They brush it of saying that all are above 90% coverage anyhow and therefore should not make a difference. Isn't coverage the only thing which makes a difference?


http://www.childinfo.org/files/immunization_summary_en.pdf

here the the UN report, coverage included
:-\????????? You think going over it a second time will make me think twice? How about think once, but THINK.::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 10:38:05 AM
I'll add a few potatoes to this chulent

I am a Physician.

I have vaccinated all my children and believe in the role of vaccination to protect our children,

For those who don't believe in the benefits of vaccines-nothing I can say will make them change their minds.

(Un)Fortunately, the problem the medical community faces in convincing the population at large of the real benefits in vaccination
 is the lack of respect towards illness and the rapidity in which irreversible harm can occur.

Vaccines have worked too well -people don't see what these illnesses can do.

The idea if someone gets sick they can always get medical care with medication BEFORE tremendous harm occurs is untrue.

In NYC- there is a small outbreak of measles- no deaths have been reported till now.
In the 1980's we had a large outbreak of measles-children died-plain and simple.

In NJ- 2013-2014-an outbreak of meningitis with a strain we don't vaccinate against since it's usually limited to other parts of the world-now has claimed one college aged student
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/CDC_Drexel_student_died_from_meningitis_strain_seen_in_Princeton_outbreak.html
 As an aside-Princeton University has paid to vaccinate their student population against this strain after obtaining clearance from the CDC to get this vaccine from outside the US

Influenza killed a healthy teenager who was in the same dorm room as one of my patients a few yrs ago.
Another child with the flu went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning (child of a Rav)

If you have ever met or know someone who has suffered from a vaccine preventable illness-you might think otherwise about the role of vaccines. 

FYI- you can see the VIS (vaccine information sheets) in a multitude of languages-  www.immunize.org/vis/
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CS1 on April 29, 2014, 10:44:30 AM
I'll add a few potatoes to this chulent

I am a Physician.
I have vaccinated all my children and believe in the role of vaccination to protect our children,
.....
In NJ- 2013-2014-an outbreak of meningitis with a strain we don't vaccinate against since it's usually limited to other parts of the world-now has claimed one college aged student
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/CDC_Drexel_student_died_from_meningitis_strain_seen_in_Princeton_outbreak.html
 As an aside-Princeton University has paid to vaccinate their student population against this strain after obtaining clearance from the CDC to get this vaccine from outside the US
I am pro-vaccines as well, with common sense.
However the Menactra menengitis shot is relatively new (most adults that we know have never received it)
and the Princeton outbreak affected a group of students who all had already had their menengitis shot.

As mentioned in the article, they contracted a Type B which is not covered by any USA immunizations.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 10:46:37 AM
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13550281003685839 (http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13550281003685839)
So now we went in a full circle. You mentioned the UN report. I questioned your inference from it and even showed that the opposite may be inferred since you were basing on the wrong data set and when looking at the correct data set the numbers are different. So you posted another linkof someone else doing the same thing ::) . When I questioned that you just posted the first link :o . When I point that out you now post a link to (the abstract only) some article discussing that there were some higher levels of virus found in known autistic brains post-mortem ??? . Does this mean that you are conceding that the link to infant mortality is tenuous and just trying to make a different point 8) ? If so, what is the other point? I see no discussion of vaccines in this article unless it is in the complete article to which I do not have access.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 10:47:09 AM
I'll add a few potatoes to this chulent...
Now we are going to start bringing in real facts into this discussion?  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 11:04:09 AM
Now we are going to start bringing in real facts into this discussion?  :)
Nah, don't worry, he is clearly just another brainwashed physician...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 29, 2014, 11:04:42 AM
I'll add a few potatoes to this chulent

I am a Physician.

I have vaccinated all my children and believe in the role of vaccination to protect our children,

For those who don't believe in the benefits of vaccines-nothing I can say will make them change their minds.

(Un)Fortunately, the problem the medical community faces in convincing the population at large of the real benefits in vaccination
 is the lack of respect towards illness and the rapidity in which irreversible harm can occur.

Vaccines have worked too well -people don't see what these illnesses can do.

The idea if someone gets sick they can always get medical care with medication BEFORE tremendous harm occurs is untrue.

In NYC- there is a small outbreak of measles- no deaths have been reported till now.
In the 1980's we had a large outbreak of measles-children died-plain and simple.

In NJ- 2013-2014-an outbreak of meningitis with a strain we don't vaccinate against since it's usually limited to other parts of the world-now has claimed one college aged student
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/CDC_Drexel_student_died_from_meningitis_strain_seen_in_Princeton_outbreak.html
 As an aside-Princeton University has paid to vaccinate their student population against this strain after obtaining clearance from the CDC to get this vaccine from outside the US

Influenza killed a healthy teenager who was in the same dorm room as one of my patients a few yrs ago.
Another child with the flu went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning (child of a Rav)
As a physician responsible for what he is injecting his patients with, have you ever done any of your own research into potential risks presented by vaccines?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 11:22:27 AM
[/color]
You are killing me with this color stuff.  >:(
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jaywhy on April 29, 2014, 11:23:49 AM
You are killing me with this color stuff.  >:(
+1
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 11:46:10 AM
How come the infant death rates in us are 3 times as high as Japan Singopore Iceland Sweden were they give under 1/2 the vaccines

Do you need an MD licence just to do some simple math  http://www.betternaturalhealing.com/?cat=198
We already debunked that one.
So now we went in a full circle. You mentioned the UN report. I questioned your inference from it and even showed that the opposite may be inferred since you were basing on the wrong data set and when looking at the correct data set the numbers are different. So you posted another linkof someone else doing the same thing ::) . When I questioned that you just posted the first link :o . When I point that out you now post a link to (the abstract only) some article discussing that there were some higher levels of virus found in known autistic brains post-mortem ??? . Does this mean that you are conceding that the link to infant mortality is tenuous and just trying to make a different point 8) ? If so, what is the other point? I see no discussion of vaccines in this article unless it is in the complete article to which I do not have access.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 01:06:09 PM
UN report clearly shows USA infant deaths 7 in 1,000 Jam packed vax schedule  & over 90% compliance

Japan Singapore  Iceland Sweden etc close 1/4  recommended vaccines infant deaths 2 in 1,000

Unless someone cant count or read  its obvious
Maybe I am missing something, but ALL of those have coverage rates quite a bit higher than the US with Japan at 99% compared to US 92%. Just being over 90% doesn't mean equivalency. You are again looking at the schedule as the primary factor while the ONLY thing that really matters is coverage ::) . This seems to show that in order to get the US mortality rates down we need better compliance and that those who resist vaccines should start taking them. :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: doodle on April 29, 2014, 01:14:39 PM
think twice and her kids are a public danger of infecting ALL our vaccinated and protected children  . YOUR kids should be home schooled and only allowed in public parks in early morning hours . for our sake and yours . after all YOU  wouldnt want your  kids catching our modern day illnesses , and WE dont want smallpox or mumps  :P
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 29, 2014, 01:41:19 PM

If you believe in protection of vaxi-quack why are you afraid unvaxed kids will endanger yours

You did not get 1/2 the vaccines kids get today are  a hazard to your own kids ?

Are so well informed ( or brainwashed) that you "know" that Autism ADD ADHD Asthma Cancer Juvenile diabetes is contagious
One thing you guys pretend does not exist is herd immunity.
Vaccinations do not provide 100% protection from serious diseases. If an "Unvaxed" diseased   child is part of the herd, the risk of infecting the properly protected children increases.
This is how some local babies have been killed with whooping cough recently. "Unvaxed" carriers cough out their germs and diseases to siblings of newborns (who can carry a weak strain of the disease even when properly vaccinated,) the newborn who is not yet immune gets infected and we have a levaya.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: doodle on April 29, 2014, 01:47:42 PM
blah blah blah . keep giving your kids herbs vitamins and potions .  dont complain if they have that scrawny health fooded look while regular vaccinated, meat eating kids , are happy healthy and wise .    BUT MAINLY WHY ARE YOU OBSESSIVELY GOING ON AND ON ABOUT THIS . YOU MUST BE GETTING A CUT FROM THE QUACKS
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 01:55:25 PM
blah blah blah . keep giving your kids herbs vitamins and potions .  dont complain if they have that scrawny health fooded look while regular vaccinated, meat eating kids , are happy healthy and wise .    BUT MAINLY WHY ARE YOU OBSESSIVELY GOING ON AND ON ABOUT THIS . YOU MUST BE GETTING A CUT FROM THE QUACKS
Nah the quacks aren't in it for money, everyone knows Doctors are the only ones making money while quacks live in utter poverty...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: skyguy918 on April 29, 2014, 02:38:41 PM
Avraham Avinu ate ( orgainc ) whole wheat,   RAW goat whole milk, butter, (grass fed ) beef , real food not junk foo nor health food, the way hasem designed nature @ age 100 he was running

NO cholesterol drugs, NO vitamins, No chemical sunscreen lotions, No vaxi-quack potions

So Autism is considered wise Asthma & Cancer is the new healthy ?
Lol, you are a seemingly endless source of entertainment. For that I salute you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 29, 2014, 02:44:22 PM
I heard of a herd of cattle , Nazis ym's treated humans that way can't you find a more respectful way of talking about your on kids

So far most of my staments are backed up with a source , can you prove anything you are saying ?

Sources you don't seem to have read... (For example, did you know that there are 9 (or 7) volumes in Igros Moshe and not one of them has a Siman 90 on page 450?)

As an aside, one way you know you are really winning an argument, is when you feel the urge to mention the Nazis...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 03:07:12 PM
I heard of a herd of cattle , Nazis ym's treated humans that way can't you find a more respectful way of talking about your own kids

So far most of my statements are backed up with a source , can you prove anything you are saying ?
Like this one? Meanwhile they have been arvach arva tzarich
99% compliance in japan = < 25% in usa because the max vaccines they can get is is 1/4 of us reccomended

So once again us kids @ 92% compliance get 4 x as many vaccines as japan Singapore  Iceland Sweden even @100%

& 3 to 4 times as many infant deaths
The numbers are for the specific vaccines. I understand that your English isn't great, as can be seen from your posts. I had a hard time figuring out what you meant to say. Before you say that something is simple math check that your numbers are the correct ones. To infer anything from these mortality rates is, at best, shaky.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 29, 2014, 03:30:49 PM
Before you you throw  unfounded accusations do your homework

Have it on my desktop so it's page 403 tav  gimel not tav nun

Nazis ?  why can't i call a spade a spade

If you have it open, maybe read the whole thing not just the 3 words that you'd like to take out of context. Rav Moshe writes clearly that he is referring only to things that have no medical benefit.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 03:50:28 PM
1. Where is your proof that vaccines have a medical benefit


I don't think anyone (rational) debates that... ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 29, 2014, 03:51:35 PM
How are people wasting their time replying to ThinkTwice?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
How are people wasting their time replying to ThinkTwice?
It is like the 1-10k game. Sometimes we do stupid things.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 04:07:49 PM
1. Where is your proof that vaccines have a medical benefit
Very simple question. Do you believe we would all be better off if no one gets vaccinated?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
[/color]


I'll spare everyone the color coded responses.

The debate you suggest should include an epidemiologist knowledgeable in the field---far more experienced in this topic than I would be. I'm comfortable with my opinion and so are my patients. 

I'm sure nothing I can say would change your opinion and that's OK as long as you realize the risks of not vaccinating your children.
Curious-do you read the Product Inserts for medications?  If you do, then how do you decide whether to take it or are more concerned about the side effects?

Herd Immunity is a term in the medical literature -please don't compare it to NAZIS-but you should understand what the term means and why people are concerned about it.

Your reference to autism has been debunked by the medical community at the cost of millions of tax dollars on studies in this country and in Europe.  Wonder why we have Measles epidemics?

During residency I had the unfortunate event of a needle stick from a patient--Thank G-d , I'm thankful for the Hep B vaccine-- and had the chance to meet the MD who helped create it.

Years ago, one of my colleagues got needle stuck from an AIDS patient-went on AZT for an entire month (every 4 hrs - day and night)
A vaccine would have come in handy for him----or for that person who contracts an infectious disease from taiinted blood products-remember  Arthur Ashe?  If you don't know who that is-look up his name.

I also remember seeing a patient die of meningococcal meningitis prior to vaccine development--I remember treating him prior to that illness
Why aren't you afraid of that?

I have 2 friends who walk with with a limp-one who contracted Polio as a child prior to the vaccine--now dependent on a wheelchair   and the 2nd who says he received a Measles vaccine in childhood.--Both of these grandparents believe in the role of vaccine protection.
It's not a perfect world -product benefits vs side effects---but the vast majority have benefited from the benefits of vaccination
I don't have data for you-but perhaps the CDC or CHOP would-

What I don't understand about your posts is your ANGER on this topic---why?  No one is asking to vaccinate your children that's YOUR responsibilty to decide.
Quoting Rav Moshe Feinstein, Z"TL to make your point? My Rav received smicha from R' Moshe and has vaccinated his children--
Why don't you ask R' Reuven or R' Dovid- for further clarity-They both would speak to you.
 
Honestly, the real reason I'm responding to you-is not for you-since you are entrenched in your ideas-but it's for all the others out there who don't know much about the subject and will be swayed by you with out asking their LMD (LOCAL MD)

The Doctor who they trust who has been with them through the years is the one they should reach out to ask for an opinion
about a medical topic....of course they should supplement the information from "reliable sources"
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 04:34:32 PM

Honestly, the real reason I'm responding to you-is not for you-since you are entrenched in your ideas-but it's for all the others out there who don't know much about the subject and will be swayed by you with out asking their LMD (LOCAL MD)


Don't worry, it doesn't look like anyone is taking this illiterate seriously...

How are people wasting their time replying to ThinkTwice?
It is like the 1-10k game. Sometimes we do stupid things.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
YES
Thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 05:38:42 PM
Don't worry, it doesn't look like anyone is taking this illiterate seriously...
[/quote/]

I'll never be surprised by the ability of one man's voice to convince the masses-----unless we all speak up and
are counted.

It's an important topic for sure but it really should be discussed with one's MD to start.
The common ad line seen in today's media would apply here as well....If you see something , SAY SOMETHING!!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 29, 2014, 05:50:44 PM
His pathetic arguments (avrohom avinu etc etc etc) dont warrant a serious response.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 05:52:39 PM
His pathetic arguments (avrohom avinu etc etc etc) dont warrant a serious response.

I couldn't tell you, it all got lost between his spelling and grammar...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 05:59:18 PM
So when you lose , you resort to name calling etc. ?
Now who was name calling?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 06:03:20 PM
YOU calling me illiterate  :P
Should I go back and dig up all the names you have been throwing around?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 06:28:14 PM
Are you a PA ? we can get an MD MPH to debate you & show the facts !

Here is the holy saint who supposedly debunked the Autism myth, next time a little bit more homework whttp://www.google.com/#as_qdr=all&q=poul+thorsen+most+wanted

You remember seeing a patient die of meningococcal meningitis , & how about SIDS

Did your patient have hep b ? How many babies do you know that contracted hep from a drug addict or prostitute ?

Are going to push HPV/Gardasil on 9 year old "boys" for cervical cancer :D


So your  friends suffers from polio so do some of mine , how does that change the facts ?

http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

 Rav Shlomo fuerst  received smicha from reb Moshe & based on the fact disagrees
with you


I switched Doctors when he could not answer my questions & became offended  & angry that i don't have blind trust in his religion


If decide not to trust something-what gives the right to impose your thinking
on others? You're telling us you're right and we are wrong. OK.

So live your life and LEAVE US ALONE

Like I said-call up R' Reuven or R' Dovid  and obtain clarity-they ought to know, you think?

In NYS- on forms for sleepaway camps-there is a paragraph asking parents to sign a statement acknowledging the existence of meningococcal meningitis and that there is a vaccine that might prevent it.

Do you know why?
Because a child died while @ camp from that illness and the mother never knew there was a vaccine against it
And that parent wanted to alert all parents of something she didn't know. The form doesn't coerce a parent to vaccinate their child.  But to say no, could have life altering effects.

BTW-  A parent who suffers a loss from SIDS doesn't usually receive the clarity for cause and effect .
If you are familiar with that topic you should also  be aware of the program for children to sleep on their back and that has been proven to decrease the incidence of SIDS as well as the push to avoid babies from sleeping in their parents beds.
All this info is readily available plus a new study from Harvard in 2013 evaluating brain stem abnormalities as a possible cause.

 http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/baby/baby-health/sudden-infant-death-syndrome-possible-cause-discovered-in-new-study-20131204-2yptc.html
No matter all the theories----it's still a tragedy

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 29, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
1. Where is your proof that vaccines have a medical benefit

2. Reb Moshe says "kol samei Horefuah" all medications including  but not limited to IV feeding, may have  side effects MD is not aware of

3. He says medication should preferably taken orally NOT injected due to issur "choveil"

1st you shoot from the hip , saying no such tshuvah. next  you misread it & accuse me of taking it out of context! what next ?

If you can't take heat get out of the kitchen :)

Sorry everyone for feeding the troll, but I get annoyed when people distort Torah...

1) How many people got (and died from) these diseases before the vaccines were around, and how many get them now?

2) In your earlier comment you quoted Rav Moshe as saying
Quote
you must always assume that a medical procedure has side effects the Md is not aware of
Now you've changed to "may have side effects MD is not aware of"

Do you see the difference between those 2 statements?

3) What Rav Moshe writes is that one may not take any medication (even orally where the halacha of חובל does not apply) unless it is לרפואה!

I never said that no such תשובה existed, and until I learn the entire Igros Moshe by heart I won't. I just pointed out that anyone who is involved in learning would know that your reference was inadequate.

I think I've made it very clear who misread the תשובה.

Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 06:38:24 PM



I am a Board certified physician with over 20 yrs in practice.
 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 06:49:10 PM
You don't want to deal with name calling then give a coherent response as to how you see a connection between vaccines and mortality rates, unless you want to keep going in circles.
Like this one? Meanwhile they have been arvach arva tzarich. The numbers are for the specific vaccines. Before you say that something is simple math check that your numbers are the correct ones. To infer anything from these mortality rates is, at best, shaky.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 29, 2014, 06:54:11 PM


I am a Board certified physician with over 20 yrs in practice.
 
Thank you for contributing, please don't waste your time with think twice, he speaks and argues like a forum troll.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 07:25:25 PM
I guess if you want to scare people off of vaccines you can Photoshop pictures of babies injecting poison, if you want to scare people INTO vaccinating all you have to do is post REAL pictures of children with meningitis, measles, rubella etc. etc.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 07:52:56 PM
I am a Board certified physician with over 20 yrs in practice.
...and we are to be believe you over someone who can pull up stats over the internet.  ;)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 07:54:00 PM
Thank you for contributing, please don't waste your time with think twice, he speaks and argues like a forum troll.
Trolls have te eat also.  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 29, 2014, 08:24:24 PM
Trolls have te eat also.  :)
As long as they don't come near my milt's or venture out of JS I can live with it maybe.

But if someone believes the polio vaccine should have never been invented and distributed I don't think they deserve to share our air.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 29, 2014, 08:29:16 PM
As long as they don't come near my milt's or venture out of JS I can live with it maybe.
Now I have a taste for some chili.  >:(
 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 08:42:43 PM
As long as they don't come near my milt's or venture out of JS I can live with it maybe.

But if someone believes the polio vaccine should have never been invented and distributed I don't think they deserve to share our air.

I'm sorry for him if he just kept it to himself
but when he says it on a public forum, we have to call him out on that.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 29, 2014, 09:35:01 PM
http://www.drpalevsky.com/about.asp this NYC MD understands that polio vaccine is based on hype

http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/

http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

http://drtenpenny.com/

75 years ago some nation believed they had the right to decide who can share the air & who should be gassed to death

Shame on you  ::)

Great! Now that Godwin's Law has been evoked we can consider the discussion closed...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 09:35:38 PM
http://www.drpalevsky.com/about.asp this NYC MD understands that polio vaccine is based on hype

http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/

http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

http://drtenpenny.com/

75 years ago some nation believed they had the right to decide who can share the air & who should be gassed to death

Shame on you  ::)

speaking of name calling:-\
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 29, 2014, 09:51:14 PM
Great! Now that Godwin's Law has been evoked we can consider the discussion closed...

I was trying to remember the name of that law earlier when he played "find the connection" between herd and Nazi...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 29, 2014, 09:52:02 PM
Did you bother to look at the Harvard study link?

You are looking for simple answers to difficult questions-there aren't any.

Good luck in finding your answers but don't bother us with your problems
on YOUR fishing expedition.

LO TETAIN MICHSHOL-you have a responsibility to prevent that-If you're not a trained professional,
then leave your quest to others who share your view but who are trained to understand the science

Yes- this is largest cover up since Area 51 (I'll let you decide)
 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: henche on April 29, 2014, 09:57:30 PM
Stop hocking with these money hungry doctors. Ask a lawyer.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on April 29, 2014, 10:05:44 PM
Did you bother to follow the congressional hearing in NOV 2012  ?
Was that the same one as the search for alien life hearing ?
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 29, 2014, 10:30:55 PM

http://www.drpalevsky.com/about.asp this NYC MD understands that polio vaccine is based on hype

pediatrician

http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/
A nephrologist (kidney Dr)

http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/
A neurosurgeon

http://drtenpenny.com/
An Osteopath

I'm noticing a common denominator. None of these Doctors are any more qualified regarding vaccines than your local pediatrician...
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: aygart on April 29, 2014, 10:38:13 PM
How many hours did you spend in med school studying vaccines ?

Come on cough up the truth :P
how much reading of scientific papers and studying of statistics have you done? They do not read like a book. Just reading the abstract will often leave you with a wrong impression of the content and result. This will be compounded if you do not fully understand all of the terms and the basic structure of the paper. You mentioned some statistics which may or may not show a meaningful correlation. The writers if the paper used ANOVA. Is that the right formula to use? I am not a doctor, but was able to poke a hole in their methodology which you have had difficulty answering. A doctor may not have spent much time actually studying vaccines, but would be best equipped to understand the available research as well as how to get reliable information on something which is not his expertise.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: DH Data Recovery on April 29, 2014, 11:48:33 PM
Ooh I wan't in on this fun..

So, the idea here is that Cancer and the likes which are "newer" diseases because we now have facts and research - are caused by vaccines and that's why ppl didn't die from them 75 years ago, and the reason ppl only lived tilll 60 was because some other reason having nothing to do with widespread disease... Sure,
The name Think.Twice sounds like you want ppl to think for themselves but the truth is you have a very clear agenda here.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: TimT on April 29, 2014, 11:50:38 PM
Ooh I wan't in on this fun..

So, the idea here is that Cancer and the likes which are "newer" diseases because we now have facts and research - are caused by vaccines and that's why ppl didn't die from them 75 years ago, and the reason ppl only lived tilll 60 was because some other reason having nothing to do with widespread disease... Sure,
The name Think.Twice sounds like you want ppl to think for themselves but the truth is you have a very clear agenda here.
Sounds like you got it all in a nutshell
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: jj1000 on April 30, 2014, 01:11:47 AM
http://www.drpalevsky.com/about.asp this NY. MD understands that polio vaccine is based on hype

http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/

http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

http://drtenpenny.com/

75 years ago some nation believed they had the right to decide who can share the air & who should be gassed to death

Shame on you  ::)

If you are suggesting that you would never have wanted the polio vaccine to have been made you are as bad or worse than the Nazi's. Polio has killed more people than the Nazis and the vaccine stopped that.

My grandfather worked on the polio vaccine that was paralyzing or killing over 500,000 people anually in the 40's and 50's. Since the vaccine has been globally distributed those aren't numbers we can even comprehend for polio. If you would have wanted to stop my grandfather's amazing work in retrospect you would be better off not breathing my air than stopping one of the greatest inventions in the history of mankind.

Please stop spewing garbage. It's disturbing anyone can be so blind to say the polio vaccine shouldn't have been made .
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 30, 2014, 01:15:55 AM
If you are suggesting that you would never have wanted the polio vaccine to have been made you are as bad or worse than the Nazi's. Polio has killed more people than the Nazis and the vaccine stopped that.

My grandfather worked on the polio vaccine that was paralyzing or killing over 500,000 people anually in the 40's and 50's. Since the vaccine has been globally distributed those aren't numbers we can even comprehend for polio. If you would have wanted to stop my grandfather's amazing work in retrospect you would be better off not breathing my air than stopping one of the greatest inventions in the history of mankind.

Please stop spewing garbage. It's disturbing anyone can be so blind to say the polio vaccine shouldn't have been made .
We should follow this members advice.  ;)
Thank you for contributing, please don't waste your time with think twice, he speaks and argues like a forum troll.
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Freddie on April 30, 2014, 02:49:55 AM
I'm new to this thread but has anybody brought up that vaccines cause autism?











Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Saver2000 on April 30, 2014, 02:51:01 AM
I'm new to this thread but has anybody brought up that vaccines cause autism?
:o
You must be joking. 
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: Freddie on April 30, 2014, 03:09:39 AM
:o
You must be joking.

You mean it doesn't cause autism? Yippee!
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: CountValentine on April 30, 2014, 04:31:50 AM
I'm new to this thread but has anybody brought up that vaccines cause autism?
I am the one who throws fuel on the fire and I am damn good at it. Don't try and take my job.  >:(
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: zh cohen on April 30, 2014, 08:51:03 AM
You mean it doesn't cause autism? Yippee!

It's organic food that causes autism... http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg704510#msg704510 (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24137.msg704510#msg704510)
Title: Re: Vaccine Discussion Master Thread
Post by: BBPAPA on April 30, 2014, 08:57:24 AM