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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: SuperFlyer on June 13, 2010, 07:21:41 PM

Title: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 13, 2010, 07:21:41 PM
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4752/dafimg.jpg)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 13, 2010, 07:26:27 PM
My ultimate question is whether there is a kom lay meedeRabbe meenay, only meessa with momoyn or makkes combined or also with 2 different meessoys.

 
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: simcha112 on June 13, 2010, 07:32:33 PM
There is a G'mara in the first Perek of Yevamos that talks about a person that is Chayav skilah and Sereifa... He would get the harsher Meesah which would in turn patur you from the more lenient of the two. Please dont accept this as a psak (don't kill anyone without speaking to a competent Orthodox Rabbi first!)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 13, 2010, 07:35:36 PM
Let's say in a case where the son bemayzid (+hasro'o) hits his father (chaburo) in a place which shouldn't kill the father, but he still dies from the injury a day later.

Hitting (chabura) his father is chenek, and killing is hereg/sayef.

Standard hereg is a tougher meesa than chennek, except according r' shimon.

Would we say in this case if the meesa of killing his father is worse, that since the part that killed his father, was done beshoygayg, does he go to golus, and it paturs the hitting/chabura part?

Ps: the fact that the father dies later, doesn't place it in a chronological later phase, concerning the punishment.
The sons act was one, and one act only that happened at one and the same moment. 
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 13, 2010, 07:38:17 PM
Thanks simcha, do you have a precise location of what you are saying?

Is he patur of the easier one (kom lay miderabbe...) Or just because he can only be killed ones,  that he gets the more severe one?
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Charles The Govenor on June 13, 2010, 08:04:38 PM
1.You could say that It's a maaseh esah so he goes too galus

2.He had in mind too hit his father and give his father a chuburah and that is what he was intending to do and that injury should not have caused his death so it was a freak think so he is chyav meesah. I hold of the second terutz.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: ChAiM'l on June 13, 2010, 08:08:40 PM
Ok, I claim mizrach wall in the new "DD" Beis Hamedrash....  ;D
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: simcha112 on June 13, 2010, 08:19:47 PM
SF He IS patur on the lighter one because of the Din of Kon Ley... I will have to check later for a precise location.
All D Best
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Avid Reader on June 13, 2010, 08:20:37 PM
Ok, I claim mizrach wall in the new "DD" Beis Hamedrash....  ;D

Super will be the Rosh Yeshiva (together with nunu...)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Charles The Govenor on June 13, 2010, 09:00:52 PM
On the lighter punishment????!!!!?????????
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 13, 2010, 11:39:23 PM
Thanks simcha, do you have a precise location of what you are saying?

Is he patur of the easier one (kom lay miderabbe...) Or just because he can only be killed ones,  that he gets the more severe one?

SF He IS patur on the lighter one because of the Din of Kon Ley... I will have to check later for a precise location.
All D Best

I believe the bottom of bais amud bais maybe continuing to gimmel amud alef in Yevamos
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Charles The Govenor on June 13, 2010, 11:46:09 PM
He is not pature he gets killed by bias din.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 01:07:14 AM
According to whom, and why?

(To the governor)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Chaikel on June 14, 2010, 02:09:56 AM
Bas cohen shezinsa gets serifa, even though eishes ish gets cheneck (i think)

anyway, how would you kill him/her twice?
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: hocker on June 14, 2010, 02:38:58 AM
Let's say in a case where the son bemayzid (+hasro'o) hits his father (chaburo) in a place which shouldn't kill the father, but he still dies from the injury a day later.

Hitting (chabura) his father is chenek, and killing is hereg/sayef.

Standard hereg is a tougher meesa than chennek, except according r' shimon.

Would we say in this case if the meesa of killing his father is worse, that since the part that killed his father, was done beshoygayg, does he go to golus, and it paturs the hitting/chabura part?

Ps: the fact that the father dies later, doesn't place it in a chronological later phase, concerning the punishment.
The sons act was one, and one act only that happened at one and the same moment. 
afaik one doesn`t go a golus if the person doesn`t die instantly.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 05:09:13 AM
Where do you get this info about needing instant death in order to go to golus.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 08:55:34 AM
I believe the bottom of bais amud bais maybe continuing to gimmel amud alef in Yevamos
I made a mistake...the gemara in Yevamos on 32a at about five lines up, says that you get the chumer death penalty.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 08:58:38 AM
Bas cohen shezinsa gets serifa, even though eishes ish gets cheneck (i think)

anyway, how would you kill him/her twice?
correct. But whats does that matter? she was "michalel bais avihuh", he wasn't, so she gets burnt, while he just was "over" on "eishes ish" and gets strangulation.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 09:05:27 AM
More recently in Daf Hayomi the Gemara discusses the question of a son going to golus for killing his father. While the Gemara ends up saying the "Kler" is about the chiyuv golus for being m'chabel ones father b'shogeg, the principles found in the hava amina & discussed in Rishonim & Achronim remain true....
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 09:10:27 AM
remain true... "feer ooss" please.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 09:26:24 AM
I don't have a gemara in front of me but I believe the gemara is 8b in makkos & rashi shtels tzu the mishna in sanhedrin (82a maybe? its early 80's definately amud aleph top of page) that 2 misas is nidon b'chamura. IIRC that is a din of since you could only kill a guy once he gets the one that's more chamur. Kam lei is when you have misa and malkus etc. when they are 2 different classes of oinshim. but for example if someone does a maaseh that carries with it many malkiyos he gets them all. (see later in makkos) so too by misa, were it not for the fact that you can't kill a dead guy he would get both...
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 09:31:44 AM
Just to make myself clear, the fact that there is a din of nidon b'chamura and this is independent of the universal din of kum lei, is a proof that there is no p'tur of kum lei here, just the practical problem...
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 09:35:48 AM
I made a mistake...the gemara in Yevamos on 32a at about five lines up, says that you get the chumer death penalty.
I don't have a gemara in front of me but I believe the gemara is 8b in makkos & rashi shtels tzu the mishna in sanhedrin (82a maybe? its early 80's definately amud aleph top of page) that 2 misas is nidon b'chamura. IIRC that is a din of since you could only kill a guy once he gets the one that's more chamur. Kam lei is when you have misa and malkus etc. when they are 2 different classes of oinshim. but for example if someone does a maaseh that carries with it many malkiyos he gets them all. (see later in makkos) so too by misa, were it not for the fact that you can't kill a dead guy he would get both...
the gemara in Yevamos is also nidon b`chumrah
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 10:03:20 AM
the gemara in Yevamos is also nidon b`chumrah

Yes, if you can only give one misa (which is usually the case), you will give the more severe one.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 10:05:38 AM
Just to make myself clear, the fact that there is a din of nidon b'chamura and this is independent of the universal din of kum lei, is a proof that there is no p'tur of kum lei here, just the practical problem...

right kom lay miderabe minay, you would say only I believe by misa, vs makkos or money, not vs a lower ranked misa.

So, according to you, if we hold that the misa of hereg is more chomur then make oviv (chenek), but he hit bemayzid with hasro'o, but killed beshoygeg, golus won't help??
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 10:14:10 AM
I don't understand your question. he's going to get killed for hitting his father b'meizid, and golus won't help because the possuk b'vli daas is prat l'miskavein (or another drosho acc to other shittos) that you are only chayav golus if you did a maaseh that's a total shogeg. (all these are mefurashe gemoros in eilu hein hagoilin.)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 10:16:54 AM
so you say that both can impossibly combine.

stepping on purpose on someones toe to hurt him, and you DO step on his toe, and it kills the person, there is no golus?
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 10:34:25 AM
That's right. Two of the cases the Gemara brings are a guy who aims to kill a behaima and misfires & hits & kills a person doesn't go to golus & a person who thinks he's shooting at a behaima but its really a person. Even though these cases aren't EXACTLY what your case is, the gemoro also says that oimer muttar doesn't go to golus & only derech yerida goes to golus etc. etc.

& your case of trying to hurt someone & really killing him, one can wonder if it has a din of a sonei (since you see he tried to hurt him) who never gets golus because we say he was maizid unless its the type of maiseh that is clear it was a total accident. (tosfos says like if he fell off a roof onto him, because he put his own life in danger)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 11:42:30 AM
That's right. Two of the cases the Gemara brings are a guy who aims to kill a behaima and misfires & hits & kills a person doesn't go to golus & a person who thinks he's shooting at a behaima but its really a person. Even though these cases aren't EXACTLY what your case is, the gemoro also says that oimer muttar doesn't go to golus & only derech yerida goes to golus etc. etc.

& your case of trying to hurt someone & really killing him, one can wonder if it has a din of a sonei (since you see he tried to hurt him) who never gets golus because we say he was maizid unless its the type of maiseh that is clear it was a total accident. (tosfos says like if he fell off a roof onto him, because he put his own life in danger)

I'm sure you've slapped a guy on the back already.

Well it was bad news, the father didn't tell his son that he just got operated, and he still had stitches which opened up again...........
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: yeshivaman on June 14, 2010, 11:49:32 AM
That's a real imaginative case, a hakka'ah that doesn't have the ability to kill, but the person dies from it.... I think that would be oines but I need to do a bit more research.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 12:21:30 PM
That's a real imaginative case, a hakka'ah that doesn't have the ability to kill, but the person dies from it.... I think that would be oines but I need to do a bit more research.

its a gemoro in sanhedrin, something like "ayn kday lehargoi..."

Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Chaikel on June 14, 2010, 12:29:58 PM
correct. But whats does that matter? she was "michalel bais avihuh", he wasn't, so she gets burnt, while he just was "over" on "eishes ish" and gets strangulation.
She is also an eishes ish. Eishes ish get cheneck
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Charles The Govenor on June 14, 2010, 01:26:25 PM
The only way that he goes too galus is if you want too say it is considered a masseh misah.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 01:29:54 PM
The only way that he goes too galus is if you want too say it is considered a masseh misah.

this masseh misah is killing me...
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Charles The Govenor on June 14, 2010, 01:41:32 PM
Well that is the only way that I could agree with you is in that case,even though I still think that he gets meesah.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 14, 2010, 01:43:13 PM
well what does the jury say?  (dd members)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 03:00:09 PM
She is also an eishes ish. Eishes ish get cheneck
not nec. in this case, its a gizaras hakusuv that she gets sreifah, not chenek.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Chaikel on June 14, 2010, 03:08:49 PM
It's bas kohen shezinsa. She has to be married.
Don't you know the case?
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 03:16:22 PM
It's bas kohen shezinsa. She has to be married.
Don't you know the case?
yes, and the Torah says she gets burnt.
This isn't a case of two punishments, like an eishes ish (chenek) who is also his mother-in-law (burnt).
This is a case that the Torah says that you get a certain punishment, even though one might have thought to give a lesser one; the Torah ramped it up to burning, much like naarah hamurasa that gets stoned, not chenek.
Its a simple chiluk, and therefore it has no bearing on the question in mind- like the case of the married shviger.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Chaikel on June 14, 2010, 03:20:14 PM
MeHaicha Taisi to look at it like that. Maybe the torah just added another oinesh. Who says it "Ramped it up"
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: YOSEF on June 14, 2010, 03:22:12 PM
MeHaicha Taisi to look at it like that. Maybe the torah just added another oinesh. Who says it "Ramped it up"
you want to prove that the case is similar, so you go ahead and prove.  I was just saying, that it COULD be that that is the chiluk.  (going to mincha, so seder is over for now)
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: Deal Guy on June 14, 2010, 08:46:19 PM
Superflyer, you caught me off guard. I was only up to daf vav when you posted this, so im kind of out of this conversation.
 BTW, in the subject tile, I would've spelled it v'mais, to make it easier. (until I clicked in, I had no clue what you were referring to.
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 15, 2010, 05:55:09 AM
In english there is no rule as to what sounds like what; I spell 'indeed' in yiddish as 'takke', and others would spell it 'tukka'...
Title: Re: Makey oviv, vomays
Post by: SuperFlyer on June 15, 2010, 05:56:11 AM
I got the following message:

Regarding your first point: "kim lei" for two death penalties; there definitely is such a concept. See the mishna and g'mara in Sanhedrin 81a. However, you must realize that here it's not a true "kim lei". A true "kim lei" is where it would have theoretically been possible to give BOTH penalties (eg misah and mamon) and the Torah tells us, without any outside s'vara, that we should only do one. "Kdei rish'aso" says the Torah; "mishum risha achas ata m'chayvo etc". Here however; it would not have been possible to do both, even had the Torah not said so. I mean, you can't kill somebody twice! So with s'vara alone, we would have known that he won't get both. Therefore the p'tur for the second misah is not really "kim le". And the fact that, of the two, we give him the more chamur one is also a  s'vara. He did both aveiros, he is chayav both, he has as much an actual chiyuv for the chamur death penalty as he does for the more kal one, so why should he not get the most chamur? But the p'tur from the second death penalty is not really "kim lei". Do you understand what I'm saying? (For a similar idea, see the machlokes between the Pnei Yehoshua and the Avnei Milu'im in Kiddushin regarding the reason that kiddushin won't work on a married woman. Is it because she is already married, so there's no room for an additional kiddushin be chal, or is it because she's an erva, and kiddushin isn't chal on any of the arayos.)

Regarding your second point. There is no such thing as galus paturing for misah. Have a good look at the sugya of "ha'av goleh al yedei haben" in Makkos 8b. There the g'mara entertains the possibility that galus wouldn't work for killings ones father, since there is a double penalty (sayif and chenek) and the more chamur acc to R' Shimon is chenek, and maybe galus doesn't work for a shogeg of chenek. But that's about a shogeg where there is no misah. But in a case of misah there is absolutely no way that galus can patur. It's a pasuk in the torah. "V'lo sikchu kofer etc.".