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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: lfas25 on November 04, 2013, 08:51:58 PM

Title: another get story..
Post by: lfas25 on November 04, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
Pretty sad..
http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/orthodox-jewish-womans-plea-for-a-divorce/
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: good sam on November 04, 2013, 09:24:27 PM
Sad, as they all are.  Married to a rotten guy and all she's left with is a sheitel and a goofy last name.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Name Changed on November 04, 2013, 09:49:18 PM
Pretty sad..
http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/orthodox-jewish-womans-plea-for-a-divorce/
Crazy.

There always is another side to the story, not that I am leaning in any way that this bastard of a guy is right.

What supprises me most is

Quote
tís been an uphill battle trying to appeal to his family ó this almost untouchable, powerful rabbinic family. Many rabbis have called on his grandfather, Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, who heads the Yeshiva of Staten Island, to influence his grandson to give a get, but he staunchly supports Avrohom. Prominent rabbis have even called for the dismissal of his father, Yosaif Asher Weiss, as editor for the major Jewish publisher ArtScroll. Ironically, [Avrohomís] great-grandfather Moshe Feinstein was a major champion of agunot, and convinced many husbands to give their wives a get in his day. Now Avrohom is one of those insubordinate husbands.

ETA:

From - http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/all-she-wrote/case-dueling-dynasties-hits-home

Quote
Also this: Heís not interested in going to a bet din, or rabbinic court, to resolve these matters, and has ignored a siruv (a contempt-of-court ruling issued by a rabbinic court) after failing to heed repeated summonses by Beis Din of Mechon LíHoyroa, a reputable rabbinic court in Monsey, N.Y.  He continues to ignore the siruv even after several of the most prominent rabbis in the country urged him in writing to go to a rabbinic court.

He should be in חרם how is it that Rabbi Reuven Feinstein is siding with him?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 04, 2013, 09:57:10 PM
Crazy.

There always is another side to the story, not that I am leaning in any way that this bastard of a guy is right.

What supprises me most is

ETA:

From - http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/all-she-wrote/case-dueling-dynasties-hits-home

He should be in חרם how is it that Rabbi Reuven Feinstein is siding with him?
Lets just say that not everyone sees the story the way she is saying it..... There are rabbonim on both sides.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Name Changed on November 04, 2013, 10:02:50 PM
Lets just say that not everyone sees the story the way she is saying it..... There are rabbonim on both sides.
That could be true.

I just can't see any justification for a guy leaving a lady as an aguna.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 04, 2013, 10:06:52 PM
That could be true.

I just can't see any justification for a guy leaving a lady as an aguna.
That may be his only bargaining chip
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: myb821 on November 04, 2013, 10:13:07 PM
That may be his only bargaining chip
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Name Changed on November 04, 2013, 10:15:49 PM
That may be his only bargaining chip
I would be scared to be your wife.

NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
+10000
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 04, 2013, 10:16:18 PM
Lets just say that not everyone sees the story the way she is saying it..... There are rabbonim on both sides.
I'd love to hear the "other" side, sure I have heard nasty things about both; but enough to justify withholding a get, nothing.
EDIT: I see others beat me to it...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: myb821 on November 04, 2013, 10:17:54 PM
I dont think I have ever used caps on an entire post in my entire time on DDF but that deserves it. I dont know how else to explain it any clearer.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 04, 2013, 10:18:16 PM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP!

Why not?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 04, 2013, 11:03:26 PM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
Only civil courts and messira are allowed to be bargaining chiPS?
As usual in these cases there is likely more than meets the eye. Considering that there are prominent rabbonim on both sides I would say that it is inappropriate for all of you to be speaking so strongly based upon a post article of all things. How more one sided can you get?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: myb821 on November 04, 2013, 11:04:15 PM
Only civil courts and messira are allowed to be bargaining chiPS?
As usual in these cases there is likely more than meets the eye. Considering that there are prominent rabbonim on both sides I would say that it is inappropriate for all of you to be speaking so strongly based upon a post article of all things. How more one sided can you get?
im not speaking abt the article at all
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 04, 2013, 11:07:04 PM
im not speaking abt the article at all


1. Only civil courts and messira are allowed to be bargaining chiPS?

2. As usual in these cases there is likely more than meets the eye. Considering that there are prominent rabbonim on both sides I would say that it is inappropriate for all of you to be speaking so strongly.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SamKey on November 04, 2013, 11:08:03 PM
I heard about one case where all he wanted was 2 sessions of therapy together and her family obnoxciously refused
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Name Changed on November 04, 2013, 11:41:22 PM
Only civil courts and messira are allowed to be bargaining chiPS?
As usual in these cases there is likely more than meets the eye. Considering that there are prominent rabbonim on both sides I would say that it is inappropriate for all of you to be speaking so strongly based upon a post article of all things. How more one sided can you get?
From what it seems the Rabanim are related to the family.

I am not going on any side, I just don't believe that anything justifies leaving an lady as an aguna.
I can not comprehend, but have seen a few cases, and its clear that the suffering what the lady goes thru is beyond means.

What is clearly visible is that when there is a fight, people act irrational.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Chaikel on November 05, 2013, 04:14:34 AM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
+∞

What's even more shocking is that people uninvolved can't comprehend this.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 05, 2013, 04:30:05 AM
Even a man, who thinks he is happily married, and for some reason, his wife wants a divorce, she needs to get it.

Obviously, asking for therapy or a little time to pass is acceptable.

Just refusing, is a no no.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Drago on November 05, 2013, 04:34:26 AM
I'm in agreement, but w/o know their history and parenting skills, I've gotta say that if I could only see my children twice a week or so, I'd be mighty depressed. Especially if I hadn't done a/t to 'deserve' this.

But again, a get isn't the proper place to fix this issue.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 05, 2013, 04:38:59 AM
I'm in agreement, but w/o know their history and parenting skills, I've gotta say that if I could only see my children twice a week or so, I'd be mighty depressed. Especially if I hadn't done a/t to 'deserve' this.

But again, a get isn't the proper place to fix this issue.

Oh, its always ugly, and people are suffering, however you can't keep someone as a hostage.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Drago on November 05, 2013, 04:39:25 AM
Oh, its always ugly, and people are suffering, however you can't keep someone as a hostage.
agreed
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: mclovin on November 05, 2013, 06:58:19 AM
Why did hashem make it that only the guy can give a get if he has to divorce her the second she asks anyways?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 05, 2013, 07:01:58 AM
Why did hashem make it that only the guy can give a get if he has to divorce her the second she asks anyways?

no one is talking seconds, minutes, hours or even days, and maybe weeks.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 05, 2013, 07:36:30 AM
Only civil courts and messira are allowed to be bargaining chiPS?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 05, 2013, 07:45:45 AM
Is the reason a get was not yet given because:

1. He is mean
2. To extort money
3. It is the only way to prevent her from extorting money
4. To gain full custody
5. To have a level of custody
6. To have visitation rights
7. It is the only way he will ever see his child again
8. To go to a bais din sympathetic to him
9. Not to go to one sympathetic to her
10. He will gladly give it but she is refusing to come to an unbiased bais din
11. To prevent her from going to court
12. To get onerous restraining orders lifted
13. So that he will not be arbitrarily jailed
Etc.

It is not always so simple.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on November 05, 2013, 07:48:20 AM
From what it seems the Rabanim are related to the family.
On both sides.

Either way, they likely know more about the case AND related halacha than anyone here.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 05, 2013, 07:51:59 AM
http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/orthodox-jewish-womans-plea-for-a-divorce/
All I can say, this guys is lucky he is not married to my daughter.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: smee123 on November 05, 2013, 08:12:16 AM
All I can say, this guys is lucky he is not married to my daughter.
Wold you use a cattle prod?  :P
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 05, 2013, 08:16:06 AM
All I can say, this guys is lucky he is not married to my daughter.
there are two sides to the story BTW...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SamKey on November 05, 2013, 08:23:11 AM
All I can say, this guys is lucky he is not married to my daughter.
Your daughter don't need no get
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 05, 2013, 09:21:49 AM
Your daughter don't need no get
The get is just a symptom.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 05, 2013, 09:23:36 AM
Wold you use a cattle prod?  :P
I am not the one he would have to worry about.  ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 05, 2013, 09:31:24 AM
I am not the one he would have to worry about.  ;)
lol
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: good sam on November 05, 2013, 11:50:24 AM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
That can't be a hard and fast rule.  If a she uses visitation as a bargaining chip why can't he use the get?

Remember this guy?

I'm not a regular contributor to the forum. I do read the deals though  ;).

I had personal involvement with ME. I do not think he did it for money. The complaint explicitly states that the $50,000 was for the thugs. It was $10,000 for the kangaroo "Beth Din". That's $3,333 per "dayan". ME made more than that per week. There was time, travel and risk involved in this one. $3,000 is not unreasonable.

However, in my personal case ME threatened me. I was probably a couple of days away of being beaten. The quick synopses of my case is that my ex refused to allow me to see or contact my kids, refused to attend a kosher beth din. It took the kosher beth din four months to grant me permission to go to court. (All the while we were separated, with my little kids being estranged from me.)

Things dragged and dragged. I did not have the $150,000 for a proper court battle. I went pro se, got proper visitation in court and offered to give a get. She refused and wanted to battle the court order -- in Beth Din. So, it dragged and dragged. Yes,she got one of these phony "beth dins" to reverse the court order.

At that point ME called me. I clearly explained that a get will be forthcoming as soon as A) we agree to follow the court order (where I was up against her lawyer...) and B) she follows through with visitation for 10 weeks. He agreed.

Four weeks later, while visitation was still NOT being kept, he called me up and threatened me. "You will give a get, and this will end now! One way or another, this is going to end".

I was advised to call Rabbi Belsky. Had ME tried some roasted eggs, Rabbi Belskey would have clearly ruled that the forced get is not kosher. It took another six months and Rabbi Belsky ruled to go back to the court order.

In conclusion: I feel ME did not do it for money. But all these posts about the "poor 'agunos'" are fare from accurate. Yes there are cases where the men are @#$^&. But, there are an equal amount of cases where the woman is the one behaving like an @#$%^&. ME indiscriminately sided with the woman. Having a goon like this out of business is good.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: chuchem on November 05, 2013, 01:42:05 PM
I must agree, in a normal case a get should not be a bargaining Chip, but there are cases were its 100% k, like in a case were the wife has a rich family behind her and managed to get full time custody to kids through laywers that he cant afford, so then you fight with all you got.

Friend of mine, married with 1 kid, lived in usa. After divorce the father had him deported and banned from the u.s. He cant see his kids unless she brings them to him for a visit. She refuses... whats he supposed to do?


G-d has his reasons, that a wife cant give a get. Even Beth din doesnt have the Power, so i guess sometimes not giving is a valid option...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 05, 2013, 03:43:38 PM
@chuchem
In the case at hand that does not seem to be the case.
I have not yet heard the husband's side, and would love to.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 05, 2013, 04:29:44 PM
@chuchem
In the case at hand that does not seem to be the case.
I have not yet heard the husband's side, and would love to.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/09/serious-halachic-deterioration-in-weiss.html
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Side incomer on November 05, 2013, 04:50:40 PM
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/09/serious-halachic-deterioration-in-weiss.html

Now that I see that basically the one on his side is Gestetner from Monsey:

http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/06/r-avrahom-meir-weiss-bitul-seruv.html

All I can say that just this fact that he had to run to Gestetner makes it look like the husband is 100% wrong.

I know his Gestetner very well. He was a Shteimal macher till about 8 years ago. Once his business went down the drain, he declared himself a Rav"d and undertook a mission to help out husbands be Maegen their wives. He has a hotline, and is a real extremist. All Rabbanim in his eyes are corrupt, and 99% of the gittin today are posul in his mind. (Nochem Rosenberg style, but on a different project).
All legit Rabbanim and B"D that I know are against his positions. Besides the fact that he has no smichah. No Yorah, No Yudim, no nothing...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 05, 2013, 06:43:29 PM
I don't know why you think that is a lot of money for a lawyer. I was involved recently in something and we paid the lawyer 10 times that amount plus. He spent an hour more or less and then a couple hours more.

Hashem should help all here with much success and hatzlacha in all they do l'tova. It is wise not to judge other people, especially those involved in such horrible machlokes. And keep davening for klal yisroel that they should have shalom bayis, at home, the communities etc.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yosher on November 05, 2013, 07:31:49 PM
I am amazed how people here believe and give credibility to sources like The Jewish Week, Failed Messiah, or The NY Post. 
I donít know why I need to explain that these gossip sites thrive on bashing all of us. Itís so shocking to see how many people take their words as facts.





Crazy.

There always is another side to the story, not that I am leaning in any way that this bastard of a guy is right.

What supprises me most is

ETA:

From - http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/all-she-wrote/case-dueling-dynasties-hits-home

He should be in חרם how is it that Rabbi Reuven Feinstein is siding with him?



Pretty sad..
http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/orthodox-jewish-womans-plea-for-a-divorce/

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Name Changed on November 05, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
I am amazed how people here believe and give credibility to sources like The Jewish Week, Failed Messiah, or The NY Post. 
I donít know why I need to explain that these gossip sites thrive on bashing all of us. Itís so shocking to see how many people take their words as facts.
How can you justify a man leaving his wife an aguna for over 3 years. What rationally is his objective?

Even if she is wrongdoing him, what is he to gain in the long run? Why would a young person want to keep his life on a standstill and just fight?

Do you really believe he is doing no wrong?? After 120 their will be not Din on his actions?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 05, 2013, 08:44:08 PM
I heard about one case where all he wanted was 2 sessions of therapy together and her family obnoxciously refused
So what?
She doesn't want therapy, she wants to get a get.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SamKey on November 05, 2013, 09:17:33 PM
So what?
She doesn't want therapy, she wants to get a get.
They shouldn't try to make it work  :o And besides in that case she didn't even want the get her family did
#dontask
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 06, 2013, 02:26:47 AM
How can you justify a man leaving his wife an aguna for over 3 years. What rationally is his objective?

Even if she is wrongdoing him, what is he to gain in the long run? Why would a young person want to keep his life on a standstill and just fight?

Do you really believe he is doing no wrong?? After 120 their will be not Din on his actions?

You do not know and I do not know and nobody here knows. Even if you know the story, do you know both sides? You can ask questions like that - you have no idea! Do you know anyone who got divorced? Do you know both sides there? Do you ask - hey why could they not work it out? What rationalization is there to do this to the spouse and the kids?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 06, 2013, 03:48:47 AM
You do not know and I do not know and nobody here knows. Even if you know the story, do you know both sides? You can ask questions like that - you have no idea! Do you know anyone who got divorced? Do you know both sides there? Do you ask - hey why could they not work it out? What rationalization is there to do this to the spouse and the kids?

If a women wants a divorce, 3 long years, whether she is right or wrong, as sad as it may sound, the husband has to give it to her, and not keep her incarcerated.

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: moish on November 06, 2013, 06:51:37 AM
How can you justify a man leaving his wife an aguna for over 3 years. What rationally is his objective?

Even if she is wrongdoing him, what is he to gain in the long run? Why would a young person want to keep his life on a standstill and just fight?

Do you really believe he is doing no wrong?? After 120 their will be not Din on his actions?
i can understand where hes's coming from even if i dont necessarily agree with his tactic

he wants to see his son more that what the court decided, so hes using anything to his advantage to that end. additionally he wants a prominent say in his sons chinuch which isnt so far fetched 
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: rots5 on November 06, 2013, 06:53:23 AM
i can understand where hes's coming from even if i dont necessarily agree with his tactic

he wants to see his son more that what the court decided, so hes using anything to his advantage to that end. additionally he wants a prominent say in his sons chinuch which isnt so far fetched 
i know of a similar story where the girl wants the kid not to spend overnight with the father until the kid is 5, he wants the norm which is 1.5... so hes holding out until the mediator says ok just go to court... hes holding out bec why should he give up like that? (plus it didnt get to court yet)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Chaikel on November 06, 2013, 08:43:21 AM
They shouldn't try to make it work  :o And besides in that case she didn't even want the get her family did
#dontask
She shouldn't be forced to try to make it work if she doesn't want to.

Sounds like yeshivish hock and not real facts
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 06, 2013, 08:57:27 AM
If a women wants a divorce, 3 long years, whether she is right or wrong, as sad as it may sound, the husband has to give it to her, and not keep her incarcerated.
Oh, because you say so, that's it, whether she is right or wrong, he has to give it to her!

Look, I did not read the Post article but I do not know how you decide what is right and wrong in other people's fights. Even if you read some article printed somewhere, does that make you sure you know both sides?

I have no idea what justification or rationalization he has but it is not up to me or my imagination. That is irrelevant. Do you disagree?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 06, 2013, 09:07:35 AM
@SamKey:
I have no idea about the inside story here, but that sounds to me like a case I know in which the husband is withholding a get for over 4 years.
When asked why he does it, he says: I want to go back to her, let's just go to a counselor and work it out, I love her.
Reasonable , no?
But she keeps on saying, NO! I DON'T WANT YOU.
How could you expect her to go to therapy? I mean she doesn't won't him. Period.
He may love her like hashem loves me, but its irrelevant.
If she wants a get, there's no excuse in the world not to give it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: hocker on November 06, 2013, 09:36:08 AM
He may love her like hashem loves me, but its irrelevant.
Then why wouldn't he divorce her?!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SamKey on November 06, 2013, 09:43:27 AM
@SamKey:
I have no idea about the inside story here, but that sounds to me like a case I know in which the husband is withholding a get for over 4 years.
When asked why he does it, he says: I want to go back to her, let's just go to a counselor and work it out, I love her.
Reasonable , no?
But she keeps on saying, NO! I DON'T WANT YOU.
How could you expect her to go to therapy? I mean she doesn't won't him. Period.
He may love her like hashem loves me, but its irrelevant.
If she wants a get, there's no excuse in the world not to give it.
I definitely agree with you I was referring to a different case where the guy did end up giving the get within the year. I just don't believe it's for us to judge especially if it won't change our lives in any way[quoted author=hocker link=topic=32956.msg620357#msg620357 date=1383748568]
Then why wouldn't he divorce her?!
[/quote]ROFL!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 06, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
@hocker lol
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 06, 2013, 10:45:13 AM
Oh, because you say so, that's it, whether she is right or wrong, he has to give it to her!

Look, I did not read the Post article but I do not know how you decide what is right and wrong in other people's fights. Even if you read some article printed somewhere, does that make you sure you know both sides?

I have no idea what justification or rationalization he has but it is not up to me or my imagination. That is irrelevant. Do you disagree?

If she is right, we agree.

If she is wrong, but begging for 3 years to divorce, they grew apart, they have no bonding anymore except for being called married, then yes, he should not keep her hostage.

The only reason I see maybe as justified, is if she is somehow managing to destroy him completely, and where its clearly unjustified* (say, she is crazy, filthy rich, tons of lawyers, and he is just a regular guy getting e.g. barred entry to the country where the kids reside, etc) .

*I know you/people will start nudging about what means unjustified. e.g. nice husband and nice wife don't get along, and as soon as the divorce starts, somehow, he supposedly turns into a pedophile, etc etc, and battling the ugly way without boundaries.

Yes, every war is ugly, but there is a war for justice, and there is a war for the sake of waging a war, not focused on winning, but on burying the other one, preferably alive.


Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: dwkl on November 06, 2013, 03:52:15 PM
its silly to discuss this issue  on a blog as its either "motzee shem ra" or at best "loshon hara"
 being we wont help to change anything by blogging about it.
 besides their are always 3 sides to every divorce case like this

 his side,her side and the actual true story   
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 06, 2013, 05:24:10 PM
Ok, let's stop talking about it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: chaimmayer on November 07, 2013, 10:54:47 AM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
I don't particularly care for this website but see here

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/supports-of-weiss-family-respond-to.html#comment-form

Disappointed in HNNovember 7, 2013 at 1:56 PM
DT -- ?...I read R' Dovid Feinstein's letter, it doesn't answer question -- a very simple question, is it halachically legitimate to use a get as leverage in a divorce proceeding. I.e., "I will not give you this get unless and until I get what I want."


Daas TorahNovember 7, 2013 at 2:08 PM
I haven't found any teshuva which says that it is not legitimate. Furthermore often the husband is simply trying to gain that which is his according to the halacha - do you consider that illegitimate also?

Again the issue is whether it is halachically or morally wrong to use the get as leverage for what you think you deserve. The answer seems to be no. BTW this applies also to a wife refusing to accept a get which Rav Eliashiv doesn't seem to think is immoral
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 07, 2013, 02:04:51 PM
People say that he signed to accept whatever this rabbi G. decides.

A little voice tells me that there is a decent chance that this G. is completely on his side, and thus useless on negotiations.

Remember it was signed several month ago...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 07, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
If I recall correctly, an impossible to achieve condition, or a condition that results in the get being valid and invalid over and again in a loop, also becomes a get.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Fan of Dan on November 07, 2013, 02:16:36 PM
Reading the past few pages I have yet to see any legitimate reason for him to be refusing a get. He is clearly just trying to torture her and become a tamus nafshy im pelishtim in the process. What's a shame is that although he is crazy, to have his grandfather stand behind it all, makes it even more upsetting.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: how on November 07, 2013, 02:16:42 PM
I know its JS but can we keep ddf out of all this and concentrate on deals......
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 07, 2013, 02:24:15 PM
I know its JS but can we keep ddf out of all this and concentrate on deals......
Read what you like and ignore what you don't.
Leave us alone.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 07, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
Reading the past few pages I have yet to see any legitimate reason for him to be refusing a get. He is clearly just trying to torture her and become a tamus nafshy im pelishtim in the process. What's a shame is that although he is crazy, to have his grandfather stand behind it all, makes it even more upsetting.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/07/weiss-family-statement-supporting.html
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 07, 2013, 02:32:52 PM
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/07/weiss-family-statement-supporting.html

People say that he signed to accept whatever this rabbi G. decides.

A little voice tells me that there is a decent chance that this G. is completely on his side, and thus useless on negotiations.

Remember it was signed several month ago...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on November 07, 2013, 03:25:18 PM
Quote from FanofDan above: "Reading the past few pages I have yet to see any legitimate reason for him to be refusing a get. He is clearly just trying to torture her and become a tamus nafshy im pelishtim in the process. What's a shame is that although he is crazy, to have his grandfather stand behind it all, makes it even more upsetting."
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/07/weiss-family-statement-supporting.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/07/weiss-family-statement-supporting.html

Even with all that -- it should all be worked out via the reg system of legal and bais din.
That can all be worked out AFTER the get. It's the same get before or after -- all he's doing is using it as a power tool.  That's not why he has the power and she doesn't.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Yeki89 on November 07, 2013, 08:08:50 PM
http://www.change.org/petitions/artscroll-publishers-fire-yosef-asher-and-yisroel-weiss?share_id=pCcWvstuuK&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Fan of Dan on November 07, 2013, 08:59:54 PM
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/07/weiss-family-statement-supporting.html
I said legitimate reason.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 07, 2013, 10:22:47 PM
@yeki

Those people are sick in the head.
This guy is saying to take a nasty fight between two people and turn it into a campaign against artscroll because they employ some of the relatives.

And the sad thing is that so far 1800 morons agree with him.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Super Speed on November 07, 2013, 10:45:24 PM

I know its JS but can we keep ddf out of all this and concentrate on deals......
Thats why this is called JS and DDF is not just about deals...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Fan of Dan on November 07, 2013, 11:54:13 PM
@yeki

Those people are sick in the head.
This guy is saying to take a nasty fight between two people and turn it into a campaign against artscroll because they employ some of the relatives.

And the sad thing is that so far 1800 morons agree with him.
As many gedolei hadar including reb shmuel kamenestky among others said that both the father and son is in niduy it isn't appropriate that they work for a publication that has jewish values. They have gone against what klal yisroel holds sacred and they don't belong there. Even without the fight I am surprised that he still works there.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: mow on November 08, 2013, 12:05:59 AM
Reading the past few pages I have yet to see any legitimate reason for him to be refusing a get. He is clearly just trying to torture her and become a tamus nafshy im pelishtim in the process. What's a shame is that although he is crazy, to have his grandfather stand behind it all, makes it even more upsetting.
sounds like a kotler quote
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Truth Hurts on November 08, 2013, 12:27:53 AM
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-divorce-r-avraham-meir.html

Noticed that the letter posted today by his uncle was not linked to this moshav laitzim yet, so I figured I would do it.

We are not going to solve this argument here, and we are not going to convince each other as to which side is right.

Let's leave it where it is, and quit while we're behind.

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 08, 2013, 01:50:20 AM
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-divorce-r-avraham-meir.html

Noticed that the letter posted today by his uncle was not linked to this moshav laitzim yet, so I figured I would do it.

We are not going to solve this argument here, and we are not going to convince each other as to which side is right.

Let's leave it where it is, and quit while we're behind.

Well, you just became part of the moshav laitzim.

While that might be true, and I'm definitely not a promoter of airing ones laundry on international level (which has become an ugly trend in the frum world), I can say the following:

I've been quite involved in many (wannabe) divorce cases, and unfortunately his behavior is a perfect copy of some other control freaks, who would give up anything just to keep the I'm-in-charge-feeling.

I did read the full support of rabbi G. letter, but since we are talking many month later, it is possible that this G. is one hard negotiator, and she felt like it's her last resort.

Especially in the USA, without money if the other partner is resisting.... add to that rebbishe, or family of rabonim are related to the other side, well, good luck....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 08, 2013, 03:47:12 AM
I agree that many times it becomes a bechina of tamus nafshi, I have heard that from friends of mine who got divorced. There comes a point when someone is involved in a fight and wants to WIN against the other side, even if it is not good for himself in the long run.

I still think that we should not discuss these issues here. What do we gain from lashon hara etc. which here also involves lashon hara against Rabanim? This is not a "blog" where all is muttar, freedom of speech, zchus hatzibur ladaat, chillul Hashem r"l, like some other "Yeshivish" blogs. Adaraba, DDF has become a forum and platform of Kiddush Hashem and Ohr la'amim, a source of Nachas for the RBSh"O! Let's stay clean.  8)

Do you differ and feel there is a tachlis to have such discussions?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: HP58 on November 08, 2013, 04:01:31 AM
I still think that we should not discuss these issues here. What do we gain from lashon hara etc. which here also involves lashon hara against Rabanim? This is not a "blog" where all is muttar, freedom of speech, zchus hatzibur ladaat, chillul Hashem r"l, like some other "Yeshivish" blogs. Adaraba, DDF has become a forum and platform of Kiddush Hashem and Ohr la'amim, a source of Nachas for the RBSh"O! Let's stay clean.  8)
+1 Well said.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 08, 2013, 04:32:17 AM
+1 Well said.

I agree.

But if it's here. I try to stick, if possible to the truth, or at least people should know how it looks in real life.

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Jkhein on November 08, 2013, 05:03:34 AM
I agree.

But if it's here. I try to stick, if possible to the truth, or at least people should know how it looks in real life.
you have no idea what the truth is, neither do I.
Let's end the speculations and guesses here.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Yitz on November 08, 2013, 07:30:24 AM
I still think that we should not discuss these issues here. What do we gain from lashon hara etc. which here also involves lashon hara against Rabanim? This is not a "blog" where all is muttar, freedom of speech, zchus hatzibur ladaat, chillul Hashem r"l, like some other "Yeshivish" blogs. Adaraba, DDF has become a forum and platform of Kiddush Hashem and Ohr la'amim, a source of Nachas for the RBSh"O! Let's stay clean.  8)

Do you differ and feel there is a tachlis to have such discussions?
+1
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 08, 2013, 08:18:11 AM
@shmuelb
+1

But to you Mr. TruthHurts: to call DDF a moshav leitzim is unacceptable and will not be tolerated!! okaaaaay??
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Fan of Dan on November 08, 2013, 09:30:46 AM
@shmuelb
+1

But to you Mr. TruthHurts: to call DDF a moshav leitzim is unacceptable and will not be tolerated!! okaaaaay??
+1 if it's a moshav leitzim then he wouldn't be allowed to be part of DDF according to halacha.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 08, 2013, 09:42:32 AM
you have no idea what the truth is, neither do I.
Let's end the speculations and guesses here.

So when people accuse, I just clarify why it's not necessarily what one would think.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 08, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
Mods, any way we can separate the last 10 pages or whenever this conversation started into a dirty divorce/withholding get thread?

The conversation here has had nothing to do with the fbi sting.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Yitz on November 08, 2013, 10:29:35 AM
Great idea
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 08, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
Now this thread is embarrassing. I know I should just not read it etc but a thread dedicated to this past nisht imho
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
Now this thread is embarrassing. I know I should just not read it etc but a thread dedicated to this past nisht imho

This conversation didn't go quiet until it was separated :)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on November 09, 2013, 07:43:12 PM
NO!!! A GET IS NEVER A BARGAINING CHIP! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
If someone's wife unjustifiably wants to get full custody of a man's children, and cut the husband away from his children.
If that man doesn't use his Get as a bargaining chip, he is an idiot. 

I have no clue the facts in this case, but there definitely is a place for using a Get as a bargaining chip. If someone is playing dirty with you, (making up stories to the Judge), sometimes you have to act dirty back.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: plainbachur on November 09, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
what does this have to do with kotler?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on November 09, 2013, 11:37:28 PM
(http://i44.tinypic.com/345lxxk.jpg)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ilherman on November 10, 2013, 12:46:02 AM
If someone's wife unjustifiably wants to get full custody of a man's children, and cut the husband away from his children.
If that man doesn't use his Get as a bargaining chip, he is an idiot. 

I have no clue the facts in this case, but there definitely is a place for using a Get as a bargaining chip. If someone is playing dirty with you, (making up stories to the Judge), sometimes you have to act dirty back.
+1. As I learned on my own....... I totally agree that to hold back a get for $, or just because you still like her etc.... is unacceptable, but when she want's full custody, and whenever you're coming to pick up your child for visitation, the child is having fever...... end she makes sure that you end up with no visitation, yes, that explains what someone up thread asked... why hashem made that just the husband can give a get. 

Also, I have no clue what the facts are here, BUT whenever you discuss this kind of stuff you ALWAYS have to remember, there is HIS story, HER story, and the TRUE story.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: metziah on November 10, 2013, 11:34:16 AM

what does this have to do with kotler?
The girl is a kotler relative.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: zale on November 10, 2013, 01:56:58 PM
That could be true.

I just can't see any justification for a guy leaving a lady as an aguna.

For the long term you are correct. For the short term, I think all parties would agree that you may want the wife to think things over.

Imagine this scenario: a woman is married to a Kohen. They have a good marriage and several wonderful children. Something happens that puts a strain on the marriage, and she wakes up one morning and decides she wants a Get.

If he gives it to her, he can NEVER remarry her. Don't you think that he should say something like "honey, can we talk this through?" Or "Honey, i'm willing to change whatever it is that you don't like about me, let's go to therapy before making such a harsh decision?"
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 10, 2013, 02:44:30 PM
For the long term you are correct. For the short term, I think all parties would agree that you may want the wife to think things over.

Imagine this scenario: a woman is married to a Kohen. They have a good marriage and several wonderful children. Something happens that puts a strain on the marriage, and she wakes up one morning and decides she wants a Get.

If he gives it to her, he can NEVER remarry her. Don't you think that he should say something like "honey, can we talk this through?" Or "Honey, i'm willing to change whatever it is that you don't like about me, let's go to therapy before making such a harsh decision?"

No one has a problem with a few month. It's past that, where the problem begins.....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 10, 2013, 02:45:26 PM
http://www.vosizneias.com/146088/2013/11/10/staten-island-ny-father-in-law-speaks-out-after-agunahs-public-plea-for-get/
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on November 12, 2013, 12:17:18 AM
http://www.vosizneias.com/146088/2013/11/10/staten-island-ny-father-in-law-speaks-out-after-agunahs-public-plea-for-get/

that article/statement from the father-in-law would have some value to it
if it were within the first year of divorce request -- however, it's been 3 YEARS --
and the father-in-law is worried about the public!!??!  Three years to work it out privately!
Time for a shift, it seems... clock is ticking for normalacy to resume....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on November 12, 2013, 01:47:48 AM
A over dramatized perfect victim story from your good friend the media where the guy was perfect right up until she marries him, and then the second they get married he starts to gruel and snarl.

Is the story true, it could be. Is it too perfect? definitely .
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: mow on November 12, 2013, 02:32:44 AM
The father has resigned from artscroll
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 12, 2013, 02:58:11 AM
WOW and I thought American divorces were messy.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 12, 2013, 02:05:04 PM
The father has resigned from artscroll
Resigned or forced out?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 12, 2013, 02:08:36 PM
Resigned or forced out?
its possible that they support him but can't afford the bad PR
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Side incomer on November 12, 2013, 04:09:43 PM
its possible that they support him but can't afford the bad PR
Most likely. They are probably still paying him, just want their name out of the picture.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 13, 2013, 11:07:51 PM
Most likely. They are probably still paying him, just want their name out of the picture.
Artscroll released a statement saying the Weisses (uncle included) will not be drawing salaries until the issue is resolved.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 13, 2013, 11:09:44 PM
Someone at Artscroll told me they lost over half a million dollars in sales and sponsors over this... And they are not even at fault here... :-\
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: chaimmayer on November 14, 2013, 08:14:36 AM
Someone at Artscroll told me they lost over half a million dollars in sales and sponsors over this... And they are not even at fault here... :-\
you really think?
What happened someone called up and said our shul needs 300 new siddurim but because of this we are going to buy sacks koren? ???
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 14, 2013, 08:30:01 AM
Someone at Artscroll told me they lost over half a million dollars in sales and sponsors over this... And they are not even at fault here... :-\
you really think?
What happened someone called up and said our shul needs 300 new siddurim but because of this we are going to buy sacks koren? ???
That I do think.  Hopefully now the sponsors will come back.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 14, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
you really think?
What happened someone called up and said our shul needs 300 new siddurim but because of this we are going to buy sacks koren? ???
Artscroll doesn't only publish siddurim... there were several "boycott Artscroll" FB pages, I read through some of the posts, there were definitely people saying they won't buy any Artscroll products in the near future...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MnM1130 on November 14, 2013, 11:27:43 AM
pathetic. world is bored and messed up. let them fight their own battles stop getting random pple involved and ruining other pples lives.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 14, 2013, 11:33:02 AM
Unfortunately she vowed to destroy the Yeshiva of Staten Island next, R' Moshe Feinstein's hard work... what a shame!  :'(
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: cozmohoot on November 14, 2013, 12:57:57 PM
Can we close out this thread to avoid any l"h?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Emkay on November 14, 2013, 01:59:05 PM
Can we close out this thread to avoid any l"h?
im afraid its to late for that
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: cozmohoot on November 14, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
im afraid its to late for that
So any further lh
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: dwkl on November 14, 2013, 02:09:48 PM
in general the statistics speak for themselves

their are currently a numerous amount of either recently or about to be divorced young couples (shona rishona,or 1st-2nd year of marrige) in lkwd.
 of course it has nothing to do with lkwd. lkwd just happens to have the largest amount of newly married frum  couples.
     im sure the numbers are the same in proportion in other frum  communities as well 

   am told that a good portion of those cases are caused by you guessed it "THE INTERNET, FACEBOOK, ETC" 
this is  the cause of many couples having their lives  destroyed .
     
      the internet is a great tool which we all have become dependent on whether for business,shopping, communication etc
but its the most dangerous tool as well
      human relationships  are complicated enough on its own but to have a tool which lets you air  your laundry  and disagreements with others in such an easy "seemingly harmless" "anonymous format is the beginning of the end and the cause of many a failed marriage 
 
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 14, 2013, 02:10:00 PM
There is No Lashon Hara on Risha'im!  ::) But if really don't want to follow this thread just click "unnotify" on the top or bottom of the page...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 14, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
in general the statistics speak for themselves

their are currently a numerous amount of either recently or about to be divorced young couples (shona rishona,or 1st-2nd year of marrige) in lkwd.
 of course it has nothing to do with lkwd. lkwd just happens to have the largest amount of newly married frum  couples.
     im sure the numbers are the same in proportion in other frum  communities as well 

   am told that a good portion of those cases are caused by you guessed it "THE INTERNET, FACEBOOK, ETC" 
this is  the cause of many couples having their lives  destroyed .
     
      the internet is a great tool which we all have become dependent on whether for business,shopping, communication etc
but its the most dangerous tool as well
      human relationships  are complicated enough on its own but to have a tool which lets you air  your laundry  and disagreements with others in such an easy "seemingly harmless" "anonymous format is the beginning of the end and the cause of many a failed marriage 
 
Agreed! But I believe one of the greatest causes for break-ups/divorces is the current day mentality that we need constant change instead of dealing with the decisions we made just a short while earlier... i.e.- Don't like something about your phone/laptop/car just dump it or sell it and get a new one...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: dwkl on November 14, 2013, 02:30:31 PM
Agreed! But I believe one of the greatest causes for break-ups/divorces is the current day mentality that we need constant change instead of dealing with the decisions we made just a short while earlier... i.e.- Don't like something about your phone/laptop/car just dump it or sell it and get a new one...
in short we call it    disposable generation
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: zale on November 14, 2013, 04:01:16 PM
in general the statistics speak for themselves

their are currently a numerous amount of either recently or about to be divorced young couples (shona rishona,or 1st-2nd year of marrige) in lkwd.
 of course it has nothing to do with lkwd. lkwd just happens to have the largest amount of newly married frum  couples.
     im sure the numbers are the same in proportion in other frum  communities as well 

   am told that a good portion of those cases are caused by you guessed it "THE INTERNET, FACEBOOK, ETC" 
this is  the cause of many couples having their lives  destroyed .
     
      the internet is a great tool which we all have become dependent on whether for business,shopping, communication etc
but its the most dangerous tool as well
      human relationships  are complicated enough on its own but to have a tool which lets you air  your laundry  and disagreements with others in such an easy "seemingly harmless" "anonymous format is the beginning of the end and the cause of many a failed marriage 
 

You can't blame Facebook, but you can blame the couples who MISUSE Facebook.

I still can't believe that couples post pictures of their honeymoon outings for all their friends to see. An outing is supposed to be a personal event, not to be shared with friends. If you are going to share it with your friends, why not just bring them along?



Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ilherman on November 14, 2013, 04:20:42 PM
in general the statistics speak for themselves

their are currently a numerous amount of either recently or about to be divorced young couples (shona rishona,or 1st-2nd year of marrige) in lkwd.
 of course it has nothing to do with lkwd. lkwd just happens to have the largest amount of newly married frum  couples.
     im sure the numbers are the same in proportion in other frum  communities as well 

   am told that a good portion of those cases are caused by you guessed it "THE INTERNET, FACEBOOK, ETC" 
this is  the cause of many couples having their lives  destroyed .
     
      the internet is a great tool which we all have become dependent on whether for business,shopping, communication etc
but its the most dangerous tool as well
      human relationships  are complicated enough on its own but to have a tool which lets you air  your laundry  and disagreements with others in such an easy "seemingly harmless" "anonymous format is the beginning of the end and the cause of many a failed marriage 
 
Reminds me of what Dan said at the BP seminar, "we gathered here to discuss the Internet" (to find out the good side of the internet)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Aaaron on November 14, 2013, 09:18:57 PM
IMO, there are much worse problems for marriages than FB or the internet, but the Frum velt tries to ignore/suppress them.  I.e. the shidduch system.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ephcc90 on November 14, 2013, 09:40:01 PM

I still can't believe that couples post pictures of their honeymoon outings for all their friends to see.
They post it for the same reason that others buy a bright red Ferrari. Who among us doesn't feel the urge to show off the deals we score and the trips we take?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: whYME on November 14, 2013, 11:12:30 PM
Now here's a guy who needs the cattle prod treatment in a serious way (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/help-rifka-get-her-get/)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 12:18:40 AM
IMO, there are much worse problems for marriages than FB or the internet, but the Frum velt tries to ignore/suppress them.  I.e. the shidduch system.
I think the shidduch system works as well for participants that look for a spouse with maturity.  Those who think the superficial facts are the important ones, or that pieces of paper can live happily ever after, may get in trouble.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Aaaron on November 15, 2013, 10:01:05 AM
I think the shidduch system works as well for participants that look for a spouse with maturity.  Those who think the superficial facts are the important ones, or that pieces of paper can live happily ever after, may get in trouble.

Agreed.  Although the same thing can be said with FB and the internet.  When they're used maturely, it's not a problem.  However, no matter how mature you are, you can only know a person so well after dating for 3 weeks, then talking 2 twice a week for two months before marriage, then often hopping straight into parenthood.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MnM1130 on November 15, 2013, 10:09:21 AM
Agreed.  Although the same thing can be said with FB and the internet.  When they're used maturely, it's not a problem.  However, no matter how mature you are, you can only know a person so well after dating for 3 weeks, then talking 2 twice a week for two months before marriage, then often hopping straight into parenthood.
even when you know a person for many years- pple still have marriage problems. i dont believe it has what to do with the system- its a matter each person to themselves.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: AsherO on November 15, 2013, 10:19:36 AM
Now here's a guy who needs the cattle prod treatment in a serious way (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/help-rifka-get-her-get/)

Who said he didn't pour an equal amount of "sweat and tears" into the business?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 10:42:55 AM
Agreed.  Although the same thing can be said with FB and the internet.  When they're used maturely, it's not a problem.  However, no matter how mature you are, you can only know a person so well after dating for 3 weeks, then talking 2 twice a week for two months before marriage, then often hopping straight into parenthood.
Gotta agree here.
Most people research buying a laptop or cell phones more than than date their spouse.

Does the system work? For the most part.
But there are hundreds of people every year who have kids right away, realize they're not compatible only after tying the knot and getting pregnant, and are now in a terrible situation.  It's too easy for someone to hide their anger management issues or even a bipolar disorder while shidduch dating for a couple weeks.

More rabonim are becoming more lenient w/r/t a heter for shana rishonah because of this if the couple asks for one.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on November 15, 2013, 10:45:14 AM
More rabonim are becoming more lenient w/r/t a heter for shana rishonah because of this if the couple asks for one.
Most people going into marriage can't even fathom that they will have any issues so I don't think it will ever be common for a couple to (even subconsciously) hold off on having kids until they've 'test driven' the spouse and are confident they won't be returning her.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 10:47:04 AM
Most people going into marriage can't even fathom that they will have any issues
Before I got married I had several classmates and friends go through divorces during their first year.  Do people really not know the statistics these days when going into marriage?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 10:47:26 AM
Gotta agree here.
Most people research buying a laptop or cell phones more than than date their spouse.

Does the system work? For the most part.
But there are hundreds of people every year who have kids right away, realize they're not compatible only after tying the knot and getting pregnant, and are now in a terrible situation.  It's too easy for someone to hide their anger management issues or even a bipolar disorder while shidduch dating for a couple weeks.

More rabonim are becoming more lenient w/r/t a heter for shana rishonah because of this if the couple asks for one.
That's where 'information' comes in.  You try, but cannot always accomplish, to find out REAL personality issues before they meet.  Dishonesty, laziness, meanstreak.  These are things that should warrant further review before proceeding.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 10:48:26 AM
That's where 'information' comes in.  You try, but cannot always accomplish, to find out REAL personality issues before they meet.  Dishonesty, laziness, meanstreak.  These are things that should warrant further review before proceeding.
Those are all things you'll never know unless you do realllllllly good research as those are easy to hide during the actual short dating process.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 10:48:49 AM
Most people going into marriage can't even fathom that they will have any issues so I don't think it will ever be common for a couple to (even subconsciously) hold off on having kids until they've 'test driven' the spouse and are confident they won't be returning her.
Anyone who 'test drives' their marriage is not giving their emotions free reign to fall in love and compromise to MAKE a marriage. 
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 10:48:52 AM
Before I got married I had several classmates and friends go through divorces during their first year.  Do people really not know the statistics these days when going into marriage?
+1
But why is a test drive marriage the solution? Maybe a longer dating process?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 10:51:01 AM
Maybe a longer dating process?
This seems reasonable. Why the rush?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 10:52:11 AM
Those are all things you'll never know unless you do realllllllly good research as those are easy to hide during the actual short dating process.
Agreed.  That's why even those who've done good research still sometimes get a really bad apple.

But sometimes they were not really suited to each other.  And those marriages could have been avoided by being clearer with each other during the , even short, dating process.  Even those can sometimes be made to work out well for each party if they're willing to give it their all.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 10:54:26 AM
+1
But why is a test drive marriage the solution? Maybe a longer dating process?
First of all I disagree with the test drive term.
Pregnancy adds a huge amount of stress into a marriage.  The girl is throwing up, feels fat, is lethargic, etc, etc.  Instead of spending time learning to know each other it's spent being nauseous.

Perhaps if those same couples that had issues during their first year when the wife was pregnant would not have issues learning to become a couple without that added stress.

Learning to become a couple is a challenge for most people, it's stressful.  Adding the stress of pregnancy and the stress of a baby on top of that all in the first year is what breaks many marriages that could otherwise survive.

Second of all if someone can hide those qualities for 3 weeks can they not hide them for 6?
It's not so much a test drive as making sure there aren't demons hiding that will cause decades of pain to yourselves and offspring.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on November 15, 2013, 10:59:59 AM
Before I got married I had several classmates and friends go through divorces during their first year.  Do people really not know the statistics these days when going into marriage?
They can know it from today till tomorrow but no one thinks that may be them.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:01:11 AM
They can know it from today till tomorrow but no one thinks that may be them.
Then there is something broken.
People should be better educated going into both dating and marriage.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:01:43 AM
First of all I disagree with the test drive term.
Pregnancy adds a huge amount of stress into a marriage.  The girl is throwing up, feels fat, is lethargic, etc, etc.  Instead of spending time learning to know each other it's spent being nauseous.

Perhaps if those same couples that had issues during their first year when the wife was pregnant would not have issues learning to become a couple without that added stress.

Learning to become a couple is a challenge for most people, it's stressful.  Adding the stress of pregnancy and the stress of a baby on top of that all in the first year is what breaks many marriages that could otherwise survive.

Second of all if someone can hide those qualities for 3 weeks can they not hide them for 6?
It's not so much a test drive as making sure there aren't demons hiding that will cause decades of pain to yourselves and offspring.
Agreed with all this. Pregnancy definitely adds stress to a new situation. The last paragraph still bothers me a little-the time should be viewed as a relationship building opportunity. Not a vetting process-that should be figured out before, no matter how long it takes
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:02:29 AM
And I don't mean to say there won't or shouldn't be divorce
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 11:03:10 AM

 Maybe a longer dating process?
Maybe.  But advocate a stronger, deeper dating process.
 
The first date should not be all 'fluff' without substance.  Get into the basic issues right away.  The dates are not to see if you can have a good time together, they're to see if you can marry each other.

Look for someone you can communicate with. And someone who's goals match yours.
Communication starts on the first date.  Talk about Obamacare, the Yankees, or the benefits of Amazon Prime, for all I care.  But give honest opinions without felling like you have to  hold back  your opinion because you're being judged.
Proceed over the dates to express what kind of life you want to lead, where you're headed in life.  For example, is having a porsche important and why.   Is having a daily shiur important or helping with the family should take precedence.  Are the kids her job or their job?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:04:27 AM
Agreed with all this. Pregnancy definitely adds stress to a new situation. The last paragraph still bothers me a little-the time should be viewed as a relationship building opportunity. Not a vetting process-that should be figured out before, no matter how long it takes
Ideally you're correct.
And yet, see OP.
Some thing just won't come out unless we're talking about year long dating periods which will lead to bigger problems.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:05:42 AM
Is it pregnancy that brings stress into the marriage? Or being pregnant at such a young age? I know I am always the oddball but I did not see the stress you are talking about with our first child. If anything it brought us closer together.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:06:21 AM
Maybe.  But advocate a stronger, deeper dating process.
 
The first date should not be all 'fluff' without substance.  Get into the basic issues right away.  The dates are not to see if you can have a good time together, they're to see if you can marry each other.

Look for someone you can communicate with. And someone who's goals match yours.
Communication starts on the first date.  Talk about Obamacare, the Yankees, or the benefits of Amazon Prime, for all I care.  But give honest opinions without felling like you have to  hold back  your opinion because you're being judged.
Proceed over the dates to express what kind of life you want to lead, where you're headed in life.  For example, is having a porsche important and why.   Is having a daily shiur important or helping with the family should take precedence.  Are the kids her job or their job?
It starts off as fluff because for many guys and girls, shmoozing with the opposite gender isn't something they've done before.
It takes times for that to develop after 20+ years of it being frowned upon.

Also the first date if fluff because you don't want to open up your personal life to someone who will dump you after a single date.  That hurts.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Is it pregnancy that brings stress into the marriage? Or being pregnant at such a young age? I know I am always the oddball but I did not see the stress you are talking about with our first child. If anything it brought us closer together.
And how long did you know your wife before tying the knot?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 11:08:09 AM
And how long did you know your wife before tying the knot?
How long were you married before you had your first?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:08:56 AM
And how long did you know your wife before tying the knot?
IIRC just short of seven years.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:09:34 AM
How long were you married before you had your first?
Two years almost to the day.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:15:15 AM
IIRC just short of seven years.
Exactly.
It's the combination of being with someone who you've only spent a couple weeks with plus being pregnant that is stressful.  When you know and love the person it's not stressful.

But we don't don't marry for love.  We marry for compatibility and then the love develops naturally.
Personally I think it's a nice thing to wait for it to develop before having kids but many Rabbis would consider that sacrilege.  Then again that's what causes stories like the OP.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:17:45 AM
Personally I think it's a nice thing to wait for it to develop before having kids but many Rabbis would consider that sacrilege.
That is what I was wondering. Do they feel the same if you dated for a year?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:19:27 AM
Exactly.
It's the combination of being with someone who you've only spent a couple weeks with plus being pregnant that is stressful.  When you know and love the person it's not stressful.
-1
I still think it's stressful if you have four kids running around and you're wife is stuck in bed/head over the toilet and a hormonal wreck
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:19:44 AM
That is what I was wondering. Do they feel the same if you dated for a year?
Dating for a year in my circles would be considered even more sacrilege.

We date to marry, not to have a good time.  The good times wait for marriage.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:20:06 AM
That is what I was wondering. Do they feel the same if you dated for a year?
They don't have congregants who date for a year
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
Dating for a year in my circles would be considered even more sacrilege.

We date to marry, not to have a good time.  The good times wait for marriage.
+1 you can't go to Hawaii if you're not married
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:21:54 AM
-1
I still think it's stressful if you have four kids running around and you're wife is stuck in bed/head over the toilet and a hormonal wreck
That's kids being stressful.
What about the first pregnancy?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:23:05 AM
We date to marry, not to have a good time. The good times wait for marriage.
I might be the oddball in my circles but I have had many more good times since I have been married.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:24:43 AM
That's kids being stressful.
What about the first pregnancy?
I hear
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 11:28:18 AM
It starts off as fluff because for many guys and girls, shmoozing with the opposite gender isn't something they've done before.
It takes times for that to develop after 20+ years of it being frowned upon.

Also the first date if fluff because you don't want to open up your personal life to someone who will dump you after a single date.  That hurts.
I think opinions on ordinary external things CAN happen on the first date.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:32:01 AM
Maybe.  But advocate a stronger, deeper dating process.
 
The first date should not be all 'fluff' without substance.  Get into the basic issues right away.  The dates are not to see if you can have a good time together, they're to see if you can marry each other.

Look for someone you can communicate with. And someone who's goals match yours.
Communication starts on the first date.  Talk about Obamacare, the Yankees, or the benefits of Amazon Prime, for all I care.  But give honest opinions without felling like you have to  hold back  your opinion because you're being judged.
Proceed over the dates to express what kind of life you want to lead, where you're headed in life.  For example, is having a porsche important and why.   Is having a daily shiur important or helping with the family should take precedence.  Are the kids her job or their job?
Am I crazy to think that being able to have fun together is an important part of marriage? The dating process is very stressful. I'm not sure why that has to be discussed on a first date. And yes you will see how you communicate just by talking fluff.
I guess I'm coming from a different perspective and a community where the dating process is two-three months and not weeks
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 15, 2013, 11:34:05 AM
Am I crazy to think that being able to have fun together is an important part of marriage? The dating process is very stressful. I'm not sure why that has to be discussed on a first date. And yes you will see how you communicate just by talking fluff.
Agreed.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:36:33 AM
Am I crazy to think that being able to have fun together is an important part of marriage?
IMHO a marriage will not flourish without it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 15, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
IMHO a marriage will not flourish without it.
There are communities where it does. It's a different style of marriage then one we are used to
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 15, 2013, 11:44:13 AM
It's a different style of marriage then one we are used to
I am not so sure about that. When I seen Dan talk at the seminar about the trips with his wife and first child his face just lit up. I could be wrong but it sure seems he had fun on those trips.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 15, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
Sorry.  I agree.  Fun is definitely part of life and part of marriage.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: myb821 on November 15, 2013, 11:49:22 AM
I am not so sure about that. When I seen Dan talk at the seminar about the trips with his wife and first child his face just lit up. I could be wrong but it sure seems he had fun on those trips.
he wasnt referring to dan's communities
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Aaaron on November 15, 2013, 01:58:32 PM
Wow.  Didn't realize what I started here  :)

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 16, 2013, 08:38:01 PM
So is there fewer marriage breakups in places where the couple live together a few years before getting married?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on November 16, 2013, 08:53:49 PM
So is there fewer marriage breakups in places where the couple live together a few years before getting married?
Rhetorical question, I'm assuming.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 16, 2013, 08:56:11 PM
Rhetorical question, I'm assuming.
Correct.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Dan on November 16, 2013, 10:14:41 PM
So is there fewer marriage breakups in places where the couple live together a few years before getting married?
Not entirely fair.
You can put together any boy and girl that have been through the same orthodox system and they'll probably have a decent marriage because their life goals are aligned.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on November 16, 2013, 11:20:28 PM
So is there fewer marriage breakups in places where the couple live together a few years before getting married?
If you live together and don't get married and you split up is that not a break up?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 16, 2013, 11:43:48 PM
I was referring to after marriage breakups aka divorce
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 17, 2013, 01:37:19 AM
I read that statistically, a couple that lives together before marriage is more likely to get a divorce.
counterintuitive, but there waas an article explaining the findings.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 17, 2013, 12:30:45 PM
R' Akiva Tatz explains that when a couple live together before marriage, the woman puts herself at a disadvantage. The man naturally would find it very difficult to get/stay married to a woman that has already given him everything. Basically, since the only thing that marriage adds to the relationship is responsibilities that the man never had/wanted.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on November 17, 2013, 09:14:37 PM
I was referring to after marriage breakups aka divorce
Whats the difference aside that one never had morals of commitments and the other one does, emotionally it's the same thing.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on November 17, 2013, 09:17:39 PM
Whats the difference aside that one never had morals of commitments and the other one does, emotionally it's the same thing.
That's kinda the  point.  Without the real commitment of marriage, there's holding back.  So it's less likely to survive.  If they marry after living together their expectations of change are unrealistic, so they  are more likely to divorce than those that never lived together.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 18, 2013, 09:23:24 AM
Let's look at the non Jewish world, where people date for years, and not only date, but "test drive" for years sometimes, before getting married, which lasts only a year or so.
This it's a more and more common trend.
It proves that before one is officially bound together (= harder to break up) people often do their best to be nice, considerate, etc, but once it's confirmed, they stop, with the expected results.

Bottom line: dating 3x ?  Not enough. Dating intensively a few weeks vs a year?  No real difference.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 18, 2013, 09:37:22 AM
There is no way you can compare the two. There are hundreds of different variables involved. You also have to look at the reason one stays married among different groups. If you want to be fair you have to look within the same group for results. If you look at the divorce rate among Roman Catholics not so long ago I would guess it would have been the same as the Orthodox Jews.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 18, 2013, 01:11:36 PM
Rav Avigdor Miller Zatzal said that the rate is rising among frum ppl because of the hashpaa of the velt, as has been mentioned here before. People think that everything should go their way, other ppl should change, if its not comfortable then just end it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 19, 2013, 10:45:06 AM
There is no way you can compare the two. There are hundreds of different variables involved. You also have to look at the reason one stays married among different groups. If you want to be fair you have to look within the same group for results. If you look at the divorce rate among Roman Catholics not so long ago I would guess it would have been the same as the Orthodox Jews.

Except that Roman Catholics aren't supposed to get divorced, whereas Jews who have a real* issue are pushed to get divorced.

*real = real(!)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 21, 2013, 10:56:44 PM
Very well written... http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 22, 2013, 01:16:21 AM
Very well written... http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html
I haven't read that post yet but that guy (and you?) seems to be heavily biased...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 22, 2013, 01:42:32 AM
He responds to any issues anyone mat have with what he wrote in a clear manner.
He seems very one sided here, though I can see him making a complete 180 if new details warranted it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Menachem613 on November 22, 2013, 08:26:24 AM

I haven't read that post yet but that guy (and you?) seems to be heavily biased...

Who's not biased??
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 22, 2013, 09:26:42 AM
Who's not biased??
Me.  :)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 22, 2013, 10:03:08 AM
I haven't read that post yet but that guy (and you?) seems to be heavily biased...
The post is a guest post, not written by the regular Blogger... 

Biased? or do I see one side make themselves publicly sound like fools via a hired PR firm in a Newspaper/web/FB Anti-Orthodox-Judaism campaign, while the other side sticks to straight halacha?

I wouldn't call that biased, but rather choosing one side over the other... I won't gain anything either way, but I do happen to know both families for several years, and it would be nice to know that they came to a peaceful agreement.

A certain Rosh Yeshiva (who I know has nothing to with this, he didn't even know most of the details) told me: "I don't know who is right or wrong here, but from past experience I know that the Feinsteins where never a name in a Fight, and the Kotlers are notorious for being involved in fights. This is terrible for Klal Yisroel!"
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 23, 2013, 02:14:02 PM
and it would be nice to know that they came to a peaceful agreement.

A certain Rosh Yeshiva (who I know has nothing to with this, he didn't even know most of the details) told me: "I don't know who is right or wrong here, but from past experience I know that the %#% where never a name in a Fight, and the &$@$ are notorious for being involved in fights. This is terrible for Klal Yisroel!"

FTFY. Point? Trying tp bring peace? Toeles?  :-\ :-[
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 23, 2013, 07:46:40 PM
The post is a guest post, not written by the regular Blogger... 

Biased? or do I see one side make themselves publicly sound like fools via a hired PR firm in a Newspaper/web/FB Anti-Orthodox-Judaism campaign, while the other side sticks to straight halacha?

I wouldn't call that biased, but rather choosing one side over the other... I won't gain anything either way, but I do happen to know both families for several years, and it would be nice to know that they came to a peaceful agreement.

A certain Rosh Yeshiva (who I know has nothing to with this, he didn't even know most of the details) told me: "I don't know who is right or wrong here, but from past experience I know that the Feinsteins where never a name in a Fight, and the Kotlers are notorious for being involved in fights. This is terrible for Klal Yisroel!"
From what I have heard it isn't the Feinsteins ::) ::) I'll give you a hint... starts with a W
But on a side note: Don't post things you might regret in the future... (think עש"י).
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 23, 2013, 07:49:20 PM
FTFY. Point? Trying tp bring peace? Toeles?  :-\ :-[
+1
The best with these type of things is to stay far away from the machlokes.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 23, 2013, 07:50:49 PM
Who's not biased??
Mesh
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 23, 2013, 07:52:48 PM
You welcome
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 23, 2013, 08:07:38 PM
You welcome
:)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on November 24, 2013, 09:46:15 AM
I haven't read that post yet but that guy (and you?) seems to be heavily biased...
That blogger wrote Yad Moshe an index to Igros Moshe, which was written by the boy's great grandfather.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 24, 2013, 09:53:46 AM
That blogger wrote Yad Moshe an index to Igros Moshe, which was written by the boy's great grandfather.
The article/post wasn't written by the blogger...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yuneeq on November 24, 2013, 10:04:27 AM
I don't care if he's biased or not, all that matters to me- is who can respond to the taynos of the other side? He can respond to the girls side's taynos, but no one has been able to respond to the boys side's taynos.

The blogger allows anyone to comment, and he defends his position in the open. He has sources and reasoning. Anyone that can prove him wrong could and should do so. Though after reading hundreds of comments, I noticed that no one has been able to do so.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 24, 2013, 10:20:21 AM
I don't care if he's biased or not, all that matters to me- is who can respond to the taynos of the other side? He can respond to the girls side's taynos, but no one has been able to respond to the boys side's taynos.

The blogger allows anyone to comment, and he defends his position in the open. He has sources and reasoning. Anyone that can prove him wrong could and should do so. Though after reading hundreds of comments, I noticed that no one has been able to do so.

I already did.

Lets assume for a second that this rabbi Green***  is completely sold to the boys side, hence he trusts him that all he will decide will be in his favor...?

The guy gave this rabbi this agreement a couple of month ago, what happened?

Do you really think the girl WANTS him not to give a get in order to splash it in the news?

I'm not saying what happened, I'm just trying to think, what might be the case.

PS: giving someone the full authority to decide on ones behalf must enjoy quite some trust....

No one in his right mind would just trust "a" rabbi. 
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on November 24, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
it's time to not 'care' who has which grandfather/yichus
and just look at the actual individual people involved.

Fact: They've been separated for years
Fact: She asked for get
Fact: He refused to give the get

Regardless of what else she is 'demanding', he can still give the get,
and they can work out the other family issues in court/BeisDin...

Who cares who is a Feinstein and a Kotler -- it's time for the current individuals to do what the torah says
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: moish on November 24, 2013, 11:32:12 AM
it's time to not 'care' who has which grandfather/yichus
and just look at the actual individual people involved.

Fact: They've been separated for years
Fact: She asked for get
Fact: He refused to give the get

Regardless of what else she is 'demanding', he can still give the get,
and they can work out the other family issues in court/BeisDin...

Who cares who is a Feinstein and a Kotler -- it's time for the current individuals to do what the torah says

why dont you enlighten us as to what the torah says?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: twentie4hrs on November 24, 2013, 11:59:09 AM
Ha
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 24, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
it's time to not 'care' who has which grandfather/yichus
and just look at the actual individual people involved.

Fact: They've been separated for years
Fact: She asked for get
Fact: He refused to give the get

Regardless of what else she is 'demanding', he can still give the get,
and they can work out the other family issues in court/BeisDin...

Who cares who is a Feinstein and a Kotler -- it's time for the current individuals to do what the torah says
Fact: She bashmutzed him in public without a halachic basis (Source (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html))
Fact: The Torah doesn't require a man to give a Get in his situation
Fact: He never refused her a Get, given that he isn't halachicly obligated and he offered to use an abirtrator
Fact: There was a agreed apon Bais Din hearing date last Monday, but her side backed out hours before...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 24, 2013, 12:17:37 PM
Fact: She bashmutzed him in public without a halachic basis (Source (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html))
Fact: The Torah doesn't require a man to give a Get in his situation
Fact: He never refused her a Get, given that he isn't halachicly obligated and he offered to use an abirtrator
Fact: There was a agreed apon Bais Din hearing date last Monday, but her side backed out hours before...

Fact 2  and 3 are not correct, see above.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 24, 2013, 12:52:32 PM
Fact four is incorrect as well. I recently spoke to someone heavily involved with the girl's side... Let's not get dragged into this.
@yuneeq In SI they have given out booklets refuting many times over the W's story. Did you know that they also approached the media, but they would not buy their story?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 24, 2013, 01:44:34 PM
Now I see figures...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4452995,00.html
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 24, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
Fact 2  and 3 are not correct, see above.
Fact 2: A man is not obligated to give a get to his wife if: 1) She doesn't request one via Bais Din (She didn't go to Bais Din for that, only for him going to Arkaos {see BD summons}) 2) She is a Moredes 3) She ran off with his child

Fact 3: He isn't refusing a Get! He is very much willing to give the Get as long as certain conditions are met. Conditions that he is Halachicly entitled to.
Fact four is incorrect as well. I recently spoke to someone heavily involved with the girl's side... Let's not get dragged into this.
@yuneeq In SI they have given out booklets refuting many times over the W's story. Did you know that they also approached the media, but they would not buy their story?
Fact 4: Is one hundred percent correct! I have spoken to several people heavily involved on his side... obviously admitting to such a thing would make her sound very foolish... And R' Reuven Feinstein forbade them from going to the media, so that's extremely inaccurate. Besides, the Media won't understand the whole concept to begin with... But I strongly suggest you read this article carefully (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html).
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 24, 2013, 04:58:54 PM
I can't stop laughing reading the past few pages.
"I heard from a reliable person involved" "I heard from someone very close with his side" I heard from one of her closest relatives" " I read in an article" "this is correct!" "this is incorrect!"

Like we have the slightest idea on what's actually going on.

And based on that, we seriously argue who's right.

ABI M'laibet
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on November 24, 2013, 05:07:58 PM
Fact 2: A man is not obligated to give a get to his wife if: 1) She doesn't request one via Bais Din (She didn't go to Bais Din for that, only for him going to Arkaos...

ye - and a man is not halachically responsible to give his seat to a pregnant lady either...

C'mon....  When the lady doesn't want me and is no longer living in my home for 24+ months,
I'm obviously no longer married to her -- so of course she should have the get.

Any other "deals and negotiations" can then be even, fair and square.
What's with this this unbalanced advantage/"power tool" over her?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on November 24, 2013, 05:52:44 PM
Regardless of what else she is 'demanding', he can still give the get,
and they can work out the other family issues in court/BeisDin...

Wow, its a beautiful and simple world!   :-[ :P ??? :o ??? :( :o Halevai the system worked so well, brother, we are in galus.

Hatzlacha on SPG Plat!
Quote
8 more stays til SPG Platinum status 2014
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 24, 2013, 07:53:07 PM
Moredes, diminishes the ksuba value. If they have no intention to live again together, he should divorce her.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 24, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
The shaila is: Who is the rodef and who is the nirdaf?
The answer is that it's a machlokes haposkim.
Since is noone's business anyway, it's best to shut up.

#imho
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 24, 2013, 09:22:36 PM
The shaila is: Who is the rodef and who is the nirdaf?
The answer is that it's a machlokes haposkim.
Since is noone's business anyway, it's best to shut up.

#imho
like!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on November 24, 2013, 09:27:42 PM
I can't stop laughing reading the past few pages.
"I heard from a reliable person involved" "I heard from someone very close with his side" I heard from one of her closest relatives" " I read in an article" "this is correct!" "this is incorrect!"

Like we have the slightest idea on what's actually going on.

And based on that, we seriously argue who's right.

ABI M'laibet
Meshugener for President!

The most ridiculous unintelligent thing in the world is to argue about a divorce. No one knows who is right, everyone just hocks from their .....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: meshugener on November 24, 2013, 09:39:30 PM
Yala!
You have posters?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 24, 2013, 10:22:17 PM
Yala!
You have posters?
Pick a VP first. (In a new thread)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Harris on November 25, 2013, 04:00:59 AM
Moredes, diminishes the ksuba value. If they have no intention to live again together, he should divorce her.

This is what I am not understanding. This lady comes across to me as the biggest piece of $#@%. WHY is everyone saying give a divorce and ONLY then work things out. This lady seems to be uninterested in working things out and hence wants the divorce without working things out.

Is he withholding her divorce or is it HER that is withholding her own divorce?! If she would be a decent human being and have the slightest conscience, she would share custody with her ex. This is also for her own children's sake. Apparently she couldn't even give a damn about her own child. She does this hit piece in the NY Tabloid, which will now follow her child around for the rest of life?!

This lady claims she married the guy even though she wasn't interested! what a jerk! She messed this guys life up for nothing, ran off with his kid and now goes to the tabloids, tries ruining this guys family and more.  Share custody and work things out, dork.

Stop withholding your own divorce and let this poor guy move on with his life!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: moish on November 25, 2013, 04:59:41 AM
ye - and a man is not halachically responsible to give his seat to a pregnant lady either...

C'mon....  When the lady doesn't want me and is no longer living in my home for 24+ months,
I'm obviously no longer married to her -- so of course she should have the get.

Any other "deals and negotiations" can then be even, fair and square.
What's with this this unbalanced advantage/"power tool" over her?
im still waiting for you to tell us what the torah says
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 25, 2013, 07:46:39 AM
The most ridiculous unintelligent thing in the world is to argue about a divorce.
I would rank it #2. We all know what #1 is.  :P
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on November 25, 2013, 08:11:26 AM
I would rank it #2. We all know what #1 is.  :P
Miles vs. CB
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on November 25, 2013, 08:12:50 AM
Miles vs. CB
That would be #3.
The "R" word.  :)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 25, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
.Share custody and work things out, dork.
The courts have already ruled on everything from custody to child support... It just someone who doesn't want to listen...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 25, 2013, 09:18:34 AM
The courts have already ruled on everything from custody to child support... It just someone who doesn't want to listen...
what does the court ruling have to do with halachah?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on November 25, 2013, 10:35:29 AM
what does the court ruling have to do with halachah?
Who said it does?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 25, 2013, 11:49:40 AM
Who said it does?
Who in this case is not listening to court?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 25, 2013, 01:21:11 PM
For those who believed Dodelson when they claimed that they never agreed to Rabbi Greenwald being a Binding Arbitrator...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 25, 2013, 01:42:54 PM
Maybe according to her, he isn't fit to be a father?

I've already said that maybe this green is so one sided that she won't agree to his terms, and he would follow blindly?

Some people here seem really biased....

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Aaaron on November 25, 2013, 02:15:09 PM
For those who believed Dodelson when they claimed that they never agreed to Rabbi Greenwald being a Binding Arbitrator...

Where does that indicate she agreed to an arbitrator.  Her side claims they agreed to a mediator, from what I've heard.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.  Anyone that thinks neither side is at fault even a little is clearly biased.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on November 25, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
Where does that indicate she agreed to an arbitrator.  Her side claims they agreed to a mediator, from what I've heard.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.  Anyone that thinks neither side is at fault even a little is clearly biased.
Its from HER lawyer...

I didn't say he isn't partially at fault...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Aaaron on November 25, 2013, 03:05:57 PM
Its from HER lawyer...

I didn't say he isn't partially at fault...

Still says nothing about a binding arbitrator.  It mentions ADR, of which there are numerous types, most of which are non-binding.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on November 25, 2013, 03:17:53 PM
That would be #3.
The "R" word.  :)
Because there's only one side  ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: yomo on November 26, 2013, 12:46:47 PM
This is what I am not understanding. This lady comes across to me as the biggest piece of $#@%. WHY is everyone saying give a divorce and ONLY then work things out. This lady seems to be uninterested in working things out and hence wants the divorce without working things out.

Is he withholding her divorce or is it HER that is withholding her own divorce?! If she would be a decent human being and have the slightest conscience, she would share custody with her ex. This is also for her own children's sake. Apparently she couldn't even give a damn about her own child. She does this hit piece in the NY Tabloid, which will now follow her child around for the rest of life?!

This lady claims she married the guy even though she wasn't interested! what a jerk! She messed this guys life up for nothing, ran off with his kid and now goes to the tabloids, tries ruining this guys family and more.  Share custody and work things out, dork.

Stop withholding your own divorce and let this poor guy move on with his life!
Well said
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on November 26, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
Wow, people are more stupid here than I imagined.

Keep on repeating the nonsense, and eventually that will believe it....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on December 02, 2013, 12:55:51 PM
Letter from R' Shmuel Kaminetsky calls for the "Smear Campaign" to cease and desist.

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/12/weiss-dodelson-rav-shmuel-kaminetsky.html
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 03, 2013, 03:34:07 AM
Letter from R' Shmuel Kaminetsky calls for the "Smear Campaign" to cease and desist.

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/12/weiss-dodelson-rav-shmuel-kaminetsky.html

Typical.....

PS: as usual the issue itself isn't dealt with.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on December 03, 2013, 10:51:31 PM
Letter from R' Shmuel Kaminetsky calls for the "Smear Campaign" to cease and desist.

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/12/weiss-dodelson-rav-shmuel-kaminetsky.html

This "campaign" may be aimed at the Wiess family, however it is also primarily aimed at getting attention to the "get by force issue" in general, in order to sway public opinion leading up to the trial.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on December 03, 2013, 11:08:49 PM
This "campaign" may be aimed at the Wiess family, however it is also primarily aimed at getting attention to the "get by force issue" in general, in order to sway public opinion leading up to the trial.

Clearly an effort to "keep the procedures within the rabbinics" and out of public eye...
It's been 4 years, and that hasn't gone well --

The couple has are already been civilly divorced for 2 years.
Whether or not it's halachically permitted to hold on, it's not mentchlich to "chain" a woman -- why can't the get be given unconditionally. 
there are no further negotiations needed for that marital status that it provides.
Divorce = get = move on with the necessary conditions to live daily/weekly.

For the rabbis to tell the public to be quiet after it's been 4 years just goes to show that they have no handle on it,
it's not a halachic prohibition to request public support -- perhaps they just want to avoid outside pressure.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on December 03, 2013, 11:36:38 PM
Clearly an effort to "keep the procedures within the rabbinics" and out of public eye...
It's been 4 years, and that hasn't gone well --

The couple has are already been civilly divorced for 2 years.
Whether or not it's halachically permitted to hold on, it's not mentchlich to "chain" a woman -- why can't the get be given unconditionally. 
there are no further negotiations needed for that marital status that it provides.
Divorce = get = move on with the necessary conditions to live daily/weekly.

For the rabbis to tell the public to be quiet after it's been 4 years just goes to show that they have no handle on it,
it's not a halachic prohibition to request public support -- perhaps they just want to avoid outside pressure.
Do believe the Torah was given on Har Sinai? and as the first mishna in Avos describes its lineage... now most of us try to keep to it!

That being said... Are you a male? Are you married? Do you have children? Do you believe a father has the moral right to see his children as they grow up?

If your answers were "YES" to all of the above, it would be easier to understand his position... Gital is being suspected (She made pretty clear publicly in her news articles, and her refusal to sign an agreement also attests to this) of planning to do the same move that many divorced women do: Try her darnedest to disconnect their child from his father. All he really wants is a binding agreement that she wont try to minimize his portion of visitaion.

Note: Halachicly the father receives full custody of his child at the age of six, while the mother only gets visitation.

Nobody disagrees that the marriage is long over, and the Get should be given. But as halachah dictates, all arguments should be settled before the get is given.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on December 04, 2013, 12:12:34 AM
@ybeeds

You seem to be enjoy spewing one-sided information. I happen to have access to a lot of information. I try to refrain from posting it as not to pour gasoline on the fire..

BTW what happened with Rabbi Sholom Kamentezky?...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on December 04, 2013, 09:12:30 AM
@ybeeds
BTW what happened with Rabbi Sholom Kamentezky?...

R' Shmuel Kaminetzky is telling people not to be involved in the "public smear campaign against the Weiss family"....

Do believe the Torah was given on Har Sinai? and as the first mishna in Avos describes its lineage... now most of us try to keep to it!
...
Note: Halachicly the father receives full custody of his child at the age of six, while the mother only gets visitation.

Nobody disagrees that the marriage is long over, and the Get should be given. But as halachah dictates, all arguments should be settled before the get is given.

In response -
In גמרא גיטין it states that a get should not be given with a תנאי.

Therefore people who know,
״אל תעמד על דם רעך״,
want to assist someone who is remaining "chained" against her will.
I see what you are saying about gender -- the courts see past the "mother", "father" and can look into indiv personality, and perhaps the grandparents support....
Biased? maybe;
but the get cannot be used as a power tool -- Halacha, גמרא גיטין says it needs to be unconditionally given.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on December 04, 2013, 11:20:39 AM
R' Shmuel Kaminetzky is telling people not to be involved in the "public smear campaign against the Weiss family"....
He personally asked R Sholom to get involved, he did. But the Weiss family gave him the runaround, so he bowed out.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2013, 01:40:24 PM
In response -
In גמרא גיטין it states that a get should not be given with a תנאי.
...
Halacha, גמרא גיטין says it needs to be unconditionally given.
Wow, leaving everything else aside, that is just about the worst misreading of a gemara I have ever seen. The get would not be valid if it were given with a tnai, but that has nothing to do with this situation, or with any potential agunah situation. When the husband refuses to give a get until xyz conditions are met, if those conditions are met and then he gives the get, that's not a condition in the get. Rather, if the husband is refusing to give the get for XYZ reasons, and beis din determines that he is halachically required to give a get, then he is a me'agen. Whether or not this particular me'agen has the halachic status of a me'agen is obviously the subject of much debate, one that I will stay out of.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 04, 2013, 01:42:14 PM
Yeah, why not just give the get al t'nai that he sees the kid every week or whatever for the next 20 years.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on December 04, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
Yeah, why not just give the get al t'nai that he sees the kid every week or whatever for the next 20 years.
EXACTLY!
If he does that, then he's giving the get "al t'nai"!

sooo... halacha says get can only be given without a t'nai...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 04, 2013, 02:45:57 PM
EXACTLY!
If he does that, then he's giving the get "al t'nai"!

sooo... halacha says get can only be given without a t'nai...

link please
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on December 04, 2013, 03:09:35 PM
link please
Link to the Halacha?

I don't think the Shulchan Aruch's website is up and running yet.. ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on December 04, 2013, 03:11:34 PM
EXACTLY!
If he does that, then he's giving the get "al t'nai"!

sooo... halacha says get can only be given without a t'nai...
I think you are misunderstanding how a "Get al Tnai" works...

A "Get al Tnai" means there is a binding condition within the Get. In other words, if someone gives a Get on condition that the woman will never set foot in her father's house, then if she transgresses this condition, the Get will become batul/nullified from the time it originally given, then her children from her 2nd marriage will be considered mamzerim (since she was still married to her first husband when she had these children with a different man).

In this case he is asking to settle all arguments prior to giving the Get (as the Shulchan Aruch says one should do), and is asking for a separate binding agreement in regards to custody/visitation (not binding to the Get), in case she tries playing with his rights - a common practice done by many divorced woman; obviously once they receive their Get - he will have something to hold her to in Bais Din or Court.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2013, 03:18:33 PM
I think you are misunderstanding how a "Get al Tnai" works...

A "Get al Tnai" means there is a binding condition within the Get. In other words, if someone gives a Get on condition that the woman will never set foot in her father's house, then if she transgresses this condition, the Get will become batul/nullified from the time it originally given, then her children from her 2nd marriage will be considered mamzerim (since she was still married to her first husband when she had these children with a different man).

In this case he is asking to settle all arguments prior to giving the Get (as the Shulchan Aruch says one should do), and is asking for a separate binding agreement in regards to custody/visitation (not binding to the Get), in case she tries playing with his rights - a common practice done by many divorced woman; obviously once they receive their Get - he will have something to hold her to in Bais Din or Court.
I already mentioned all of this, not sure what bigdanfan doesn't understand about it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 04, 2013, 03:20:04 PM
Link to the Halacha?

I don't think the Shulchan Aruch's website is up and running yet.. ;)

Hebrewbooks.org is up and running. there are easy links to the gemara, and you can find any chelek in shulchan aruch there
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2013, 03:47:33 PM
Hebrewbooks.org is up and running. there are easy links to the gemara, and you can find any chelek in shulchan aruch there
Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew (http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%9E%D7%92)). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: PlatinumGuy on December 04, 2013, 03:52:14 PM
Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew (http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%9E%D7%92)). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.
I think it's a mishanah and everyone agrees on it. But that's only if it's not מעכשו.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on December 04, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
Clearly an effort to "keep the procedures within the rabbinics" and out of public eye...
It's been 4 years, and that hasn't gone well --

The couple has are already been civilly divorced for 2 years.
For the rabbis to tell the public to be quiet after it's been 4 years just goes to show that they have no handle on it,
it's not a halachic prohibition to request public support -- perhaps they just want to avoid outside pressure.

I don't think you understood my point at all. The worms are all out of the can and this is the next Rubashkin. If you start a sentence "The rabbis" you are indicating that you have no scope as to how vast the spectrum of "Rabbis" is.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on December 04, 2013, 04:51:26 PM
I don't think you understood my point at all. The worms are all out of the can and this is the next Rubashkin. If you start a sentence "The rabbis" you are indicating that you have no scope as to how vast the spectrum of "Rabbis" is.

fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,
and from experience seeing the molestors, the thieves, that get away with stuff...
often some rabbis are looking at other unrelated factors in their decision making
(such as what will publicly reflect on them, and what public response by outsiders may happen down the road -
leaving Kollel/getting a job/the Truth coming out)
more than what is best for the specific, actual people involved - Father, Mother, Child.

Regarding the get, you are right, על תנאי, in Halacha is apparently the connection to the terms of the get itself, not the  תנאי of the action of giving of it...

(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 04, 2013, 08:12:09 PM
fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,
and from experience seeing the molestors, the thieves, that get away with stuff...
often some rabbis are looking at other unrelated factors in their decision making
(such as what will publicly reflect on them, and what public response by outsiders may happen down the road -
leaving Kollel/getting a job/the Truth coming out)
more than what is best for the specific, actual people involved - Father, Mother, Child.

Regarding the get, you are right, על תנאי, in Halacha is apparently the connection to the terms of the get itself, not the  תנאי of the action of giving of it...

(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...
Enough of blaming the "rabbis" for all of the world problems.
Disgusting.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hirshthg on December 05, 2013, 12:34:03 AM
fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,
That's enough. You address the Rabbis like it's one for all and all for one.
Rabbis like any other group of people are made up of humans, and some of them are more human than other. When I address the motives of a particular rabbi or group of people you respond with a comment about "the rebbis". WT*?

I am insulted. I agree with you that that there are people who stand behind "stuff" to shield them from the things they do, and that it doesn't help. How does that allow you to paint with a broad brush and incriminate every Jew?

Please refrain from your anti Semitic rhetoric, thank you,
a rabbi
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 12:46:53 AM
Please refrain from your anti Semitic rhetoric, thank you,
I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 05, 2013, 02:00:39 AM
I'm not sure why I need to write it over again.
I say this with sadness, however, I will have to mention this again.
Unfortunately, it's very often true....

Start reading from line 2 (text is easy).

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/2uma2ygu.jpg)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Menachem613 on December 05, 2013, 09:06:13 AM

I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?

+1
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: shmuelb on December 05, 2013, 09:13:15 AM
I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?

He does not mean antisemite in the classic usage.

The point is that this stan-fan is spouting hatred for Rabbis, tarring them (if not all then a significant portion) as being selfish, cunning and uncaring. This is beyond ridiculous. Rabbis are very selfless, dedicated and caring people, their whole lives are given to help others. They are not in it for the money. Their lives are working on their character to become better people. They are wonderful people. They do not deserve to be slandered as has been done by "anti-semites" throughout the ages.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 05, 2013, 09:16:17 AM


(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...

Those rabbis--who said the get is not supposed to be a power tool--they said the mother IS supposed to use the kids as a power tool?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 05, 2013, 09:19:22 AM
Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew (http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%96%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%9E%D7%92)). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.

Except as PG pointed out that if say mei'achshav then she is divorced right away and she can even remarry l'chatchila if the tnai is b'yadah.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CountValentine on December 05, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
He does not mean antisemite in the classic usage.

The point is that this stan-fan is spouting hatred for Rabbis, tarring them (if not all then a significant portion) as being selfish, cunning and uncaring. This is beyond ridiculous. Rabbis are very selfless, dedicated and caring people, their whole lives are given to help others. They are not in it for the money. Their lives are working on their character to become better people. They are wonderful people. They do not deserve to be slandered as has been done by "anti-semites" throughout the ages.
I understand his and your point. Unfortunately no matter how respected/trusted a group is there will always be a few bad apples. You need to speak up for the ones who canít speak for themselves when this trust has been violated. Now back to regular schedule program that make American divorces look like childís play.  ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 10:01:44 AM
I think it's a mishanah and everyone agrees on it. But that's only if it's not מעכשו.
I said שולחן ערוך because that's what I was quoting, not because it's a מחלוקת.
Except as PG pointed out that if say mei'achshav then she is divorced right away and she can even remarry l'chatchila if the tnai is b'yadah.
I'm not 100% sure about this part, so don't quote me on it, but I believe the answer to your question lies in the last line of סעיף ב:
ויĒא דאפילו בתנאי דמעכשיו יכול לבטלו ויש להחמיר
Because a בתנאי such as visitation rights is never really completed (she has to continually allow him visitation on whatever schedule indefinitely), if you say the husband can be מבטל a גט דמעכשיו until the תנאי is fulfilled then the wife would never be allowed to remarry with that גט because the husband still has the power to be מבטל it.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on December 05, 2013, 10:03:47 AM
I said שולחן ערוך because that's what I was quoting, not because it's a מחלוקת.I'm not 100% sure about this part, so don't quote me on it, but I believe the answer to your question lies in the last line of סעיף ב:
ויĒא דאפילו בתנאי דמעכשיו יכול לבטלו ויש להחמיר
Because a בתנאי such as visitation rights is never really completed (she has to continually allow him visitation on whatever schedule indefinitely), if you say the husband can be מבטל a גט דמעכשיו until the תנאי is fulfilled then the wife would never be allowed to remarry with that גט because the husband still has the power to be מבטל it.

Ah, so we need to read the nosei keilim. But I'm busy today. Toodeloo.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 10:09:56 AM
Guys please, "kol sheino yodeai betiv gittin vekidushin al yehi lo esek imohem"
I highly doubt anyone here has studied Even Haezer aliba dehilchasa. To regurgitate a few gemaras that we remember from 10th grade gittin is nice but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on December 05, 2013, 10:14:38 AM
Guys please, "kol sheino yodeai betiv gittin vekidushin al yehi lo esek imohem"
I highly doubt anyone here has studied Even Haezer aliba dehilchasa. To regurgitate a few gemaras that we remember from 10th grade gittin is nice but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
+1000000000000 not just on the last part, but the whole thread!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 10:23:37 AM
Guys please, "kol sheino yodeai betiv gittin vekidushin al yehi lo esek imohem"
I highly doubt anyone here has studied Even Haezer aliba dehilchasa. To regurgitate a few gemaras that we remember from 10th grade gittin is nice but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Ahh... so commenting in a thread on DDF is considered esek imohem, I should have realized that [/sarcasm]

PG and henche are asking a good question, every husband who's withholding a get for custody reasons should give a גט בתנאי מעכשיו, because then the wife will be able to remarry but if she refuses the husband the agreed upon custody/visitation it will invalidate her second marriage. I'm suggesting a reason why that approach is not valid, which would explain why it's not commonly used to resolve these situations.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2013, 10:37:32 AM
Ahh... so commenting in a thread on DDF is considered esek imohem, I should have realized that [/sarcasm]

PG and henche are asking a good question, every husband who's withholding a get for custody reasons should give a גט בתנאי מעכשיו, because then the wife will be able to remarry but if she refuses the husband the agreed upon custody/visitation it will invalidate her second marriage. I'm suggesting a reason why that approach is not valid, which would explain why it's not commonly used to resolve these situations.
Its all good. :) Just pointing out that the whole discussion is based on a very elementary understanding of even the basics of these extremely complex concepts...kinda silly IMHO.
No disrespect.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2013, 10:41:48 AM
Its all good. :) Just pointing out that the whole discussion is based on a very elementary understanding of even the basics of these extremely complex concepts...kinda silly IMHO.
No disrespect.
None taken (not that I deserve any in the first place). Gittin was actually 9th grade for me  ;D
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ygold on December 11, 2013, 04:17:31 AM
This is what I am not understanding. This lady comes across to me as the biggest piece of $#@%. WHY is everyone saying give a divorce and ONLY then work things out. This lady seems to be uninterested in working things out and hence wants the divorce without working things out.

Is he withholding her divorce or is it HER that is withholding her own divorce?! If she would be a decent human being and have the slightest conscience, she would share custody with her ex. This is also for her own children's sake. Apparently she couldn't even give a damn about her own child. She does this hit piece in the NY Tabloid, which will now follow her child around for the rest of life?!

This lady claims she married the guy even though she wasn't interested! what a jerk! She messed this guys life up for nothing, ran off with his kid and now goes to the tabloids, tries ruining this guys family and more.  Share custody and work things out, dork.

Stop withholding your own divorce and let this poor guy move on with his life!

Good points.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 11, 2013, 04:42:13 AM
Good points.

Good points only if assuming he is a nice father to the kid.

Being of chosheve family means nothing in this context.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Jkhein on December 11, 2013, 05:18:06 AM
Good points only if assuming he is a nice father to the kid.

Being of chosheve family means nothing in this context.
he is probably constantly torturing his son, no?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 11, 2013, 05:31:19 AM
he is probably constantly torturing his son, no?

I'm not saying he is or he isn't.

Just don't want it to make it as if it's obvious  that one is at fault unconditionally.

I've been involved in way too many stories where both man and woman were illtreating their kids....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Jkhein on December 11, 2013, 05:35:41 AM
I'm not saying he is or he isn't.

Just don't want it to make it as if it's obvious  that one is at fault unconditionally.

I've been involved in way too many stories where both man and woman were illtreating their kids....
but it would seem he is not, as from what I understand she has no problem with sharing custody....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 11, 2013, 11:05:15 AM
but it would seem he is not, as from what I understand she has no problem with sharing custody....

Do according to you, what does she want.

Nothing, or just for fun isn't an acceptable answer.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Jkhein on December 11, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
Do according to you, what does she want.

Nothing, or just for fun isn't an acceptable answer.
being involved in helping out people in divorce situations, I got to learn that it can come to a point where one just becomes "shlecht, or they just want to completely cut off ties and having a child in middle does not cut off completely etc
In this case i have no idea what the real story is, I am not taking sides here.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 11, 2013, 06:14:41 PM
being involved in helping out people in divorce situations, I got to learn that it can come to a point where one just becomes "shlecht, or they just want to completely cut off ties and having a child in middle does not cut off completely etc
In this case i have no idea what the real story is, I am not taking sides here.

Right!

An excellent and honest mediator is needed.

B"H I managed to solve several hard cases.

Takes lots and lots of energy
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on December 11, 2013, 06:20:06 PM
In this case i have no idea what the real story is, I am not taking sides here.
That hasn't stopped the first 270 comments from taking sides.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: SuperFlyer on December 11, 2013, 08:38:04 PM
That hasn't stopped the first 270 comments from taking sides.

Wrong, I wrote a couple of posts, without taking sides.

Just leveling out to show it's not clear.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: aygart on December 11, 2013, 09:36:43 PM
Wrong, I wrote a couple of posts, without taking sides.

Just leveling out to show it's not clear.
you wrote 270 comments on this? Wow.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 05, 2014, 04:02:07 PM
MAZEL TOV!
Get has been given!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 05, 2014, 04:10:36 PM
MAZEL TOV!
Get has been given!
So who won?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on February 05, 2014, 04:15:20 PM
So who won?
Nobody wins - And in this case, everyone has lost - both
!בגשמיות וברוניות
Huge losses, however one person finally did the right thing today and gave the get.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: efflpetzel on February 05, 2014, 04:18:38 PM
mazel tov, this is great news,

almost feel like a shidduch ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 05, 2014, 04:19:34 PM
This is crazy. MT for a get!

Are they making a lechaim?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hidden on February 05, 2014, 04:21:27 PM
Its not crazy to say MT by a get. Its the minhag. They could use good mazel now more than any other time.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 05, 2014, 04:28:50 PM
Its not crazy to say MT by a get. Its the minhag.
+1
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: rots5 on February 05, 2014, 06:00:55 PM
MAZEL TOV!
Get has been given!
ummmm what get is this?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Menachem613 on February 05, 2014, 06:06:36 PM

ummmm what get is this?

The Feinstein one.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: rots5 on February 05, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
The Feinstein one.
nice!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2014, 07:39:16 PM
So now everyone's gonna go to the NYP to get a get. 
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 05, 2014, 07:51:07 PM
MAZEL TOV!
Get has been given!
Kosher Get?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2014, 08:49:40 PM
Kosher Get?
Epstien's out of busines  ;)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 06, 2014, 12:00:05 AM
Kosher Get?
There is a very strong חרם קדמונים on being motzi laaz on a get.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 06, 2014, 12:35:25 AM
There is a very strong חרם קדמונים on being motzi laaz on a get.
Big difference between Motzei Laz on a Get & Questioning its validity!!! I never claimed the Get isn't good but rather asked if it is!!!

Just found this (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/02/it-is-official-gital-dodelson-received.html?showComment=1391635462400#c4424451701730038127) discussion...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Hidden on February 06, 2014, 01:35:02 AM
Big difference between Motzei Laz on a Get & Questioning its validity!!! I never claimed the Get isn't good but rather asked if it is!!!

Just found this (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/02/it-is-official-gital-dodelson-received.html?showComment=1391635462400#c4424451701730038127) discussion...
questioning its validity is considered motzi laaz and is included in cherem d'rabbeinu taam.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 06, 2014, 02:18:46 AM
questioning its validity is considered motzi laaz and is included in cherem d'rabbeinu taam.
Source? IIRC the Definition of Motzei Laaz, is to claim that the Get isn't good.

Questioning is not claiming anything...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: springles on February 06, 2014, 02:32:26 PM
The site setgitalfree.com is down.  I wonder if that was part of the agreement or the owner decided on their own to take it down.

edit: looks like the fb page is coming down tonight as part of the agreement
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 06, 2014, 03:02:11 PM
The site setgitalfree.com is down.  I wonder if that was part of the agreement or the owner decided on their own to take it down.

edit: looks like the fb page is coming down tonight as part of the agreement
It was part of the agreement!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on February 06, 2014, 04:31:09 PM
It was part of the agreement!
so now back to an earlier question:
If the 'get' was given with those attached conditions, then does that fall under giving a get with a תנאי ?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ckmk47 on February 06, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
so now back to an earlier question:
If the 'get' was given with those attached conditions, then does that fall under giving a get with a תנאי ?
No.  That's ordinary negotiations.  A tenai is when it's something you don't have control over. 'This get is good if the Broncos win the superbowl.' 'if the dog has puppies'   Something not in the behavior of the 2 parties divorcing.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CS1 on February 06, 2014, 06:00:03 PM
No.  That's ordinary negotiations.  A tenai is when it's something you don't have control over. 'This get is good if the Broncos win the superbowl.' 'if the dog has puppies'   Something not in the behavior of the 2 parties divorcing.
Then, I have a question:
Even then, obviously they will do the best they can and keep to the terms,
however, if they'd both remarry and then decide that they want a webpage up again,
or something else that they had agreed to keep to. That wouldn't make it as if they hadn't
gotten divorced, correct? It would just mean that after 10 years they broke one of the terms - is that a tenai?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 06, 2014, 07:19:07 PM
Then, I have a question:
Even then, obviously they will do the best they can and keep to the terms,
however, if they'd both remarry and then decide that they want a webpage up again,
or something else that they had agreed to keep to. That wouldn't make it as if they hadn't
gotten divorced, correct? It would just mean that after 10 years they broke one of the terms - is that a tenai?
In this case, there will be monetary fine and a loss of Custody/visitation rights if the concession agreement is broken. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the Get.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: hocker on February 06, 2014, 08:07:48 PM
questioning its validity is considered motzi laaz and is included in cherem d'rabbeinu taam.
Big difference between questioning the validity and inquiring about the validity...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on February 09, 2014, 01:55:24 AM
It was part of the agreement!
wondering what else is 'part of the agreement'?  they are both not allowed to talk about the terms?

curious to know if there is a link anywhere of the terms/agreement? Rumor was that there was a 6 figure payout for the get?  :o
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 09, 2014, 03:36:32 AM
Rumor was that there was a 6 figure payout for the get?
not for the Get, but yes there was a six figure payout to the Weiss' lawyer, unattached to the final giving of the Get agreement... the Dodelsons knew they had to pay the lawyers bill before the lawyer was even hired, shortly after Gital left with their son... They didn't argue much about it, but rather they just used it for PR purposes to rile people up, claiming it to be extortion....
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Gets on February 09, 2014, 05:27:41 AM

Then, I have a question:
Even then, obviously they will do the best they can and keep to the terms,
however, if they'd both remarry and then decide that they want a webpage up again,
or something else that they had agreed to keep to. That wouldn't make it as if they hadn't
gotten divorced, correct? It would just mean that after 10 years they broke one of the terms - is that a tenai?

iirc it's a tanai to give the get, not a tanai in the get itself
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: henche on February 09, 2014, 08:57:44 AM
not for the Get, but yes there was a six figure payout to the Weiss' lawyer, unattached to the final giving of the Get agreement... the Dodelsons knew they had to pay the lawyers bill before the lawyer was even hired, shortly after Gital left with their son... They didn't argue much about it, but rather they just used it for PR purposes to rile people up, claiming it to be extortion....

Well, they didn't have to use such a cheap lawyer. I would have charged way more than that.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 09, 2014, 09:59:45 AM
Well, they didn't have to use such a cheap lawyer. I would have charged way more than that.
The amount paid by the Dodelsons for the lawyers was negotiated at some point prior to the Get. They didn't pay for the entire bill...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on February 09, 2014, 10:06:29 AM
Ftr is was just barely into the low 6 figures.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 10:16:30 AM
not for the Get, but yes there was a six figure payout to the Weiss' lawyer, unattached to the final giving of the Get agreement... the Dodelsons knew they had to pay the lawyers bill before the lawyer was even hired, shortly after Gital left with their son... They didn't argue much about it, but rather they just used it for PR purposes to rile people up, claiming it to be extortion....
ALOL!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 10:17:08 AM
Deleted, no toeles...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on February 09, 2014, 10:19:54 AM
Deleted, no toeles...
This thread?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 11:37:54 AM
This thread?
I had made a post in response to MarkS and ybeeds. But then I realized that there is no longer a toeeles in the Loshon Horah here. So I deleted it. IMO at this point this thread should go.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 09, 2014, 11:41:36 AM
I had made a post in response to MarkS and ybeeds. But then I realized that there is no longer a toeeles in the Loshon Horah here. So I deleted it. IMO at this point this thread should go.
you can remove your post on the top right side of the post...
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CS1 on February 09, 2014, 11:49:57 AM
I had made a post in response to MarkS and ybeeds. But then I realized that there is no longer a toeeles in the Loshon Horah here. So I deleted it. IMO at this point this thread should go.
-1
Actually I think that this thread is quite valuable in demonstrating to singles and engaged couples
how we can prevent all these issue from arising, even within the mainstream Jewish families.

If all Rabbonim would make this the default document 6 weeks prior to each Kosher marriage,
then not only would we save this publicity, the years of legal back-and-forth, and the pain to the child/ren,
but also the 6 figures of money paid that could have been avoided:
http://www.theprenup.org/index.html

(even low six figures -- that's a lot of money/points/airfare/trips/AF/etc...)

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on February 09, 2014, 12:00:08 PM
I signed one, but there are many rabbonim who have halachik issues with this. So that's unrealistic
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: ybeeds on February 09, 2014, 12:01:58 PM
-1
Actually I think that this thread is quite valuable in demonstrating to singles and engaged couples
how we can prevent all these issue from arising, even within the mainstream Jewish families.

If all Rabbonim would make this the default document 6 weeks prior to each Kosher marriage,
then not only would we save this publicity, the years of legal back-and-forth, and the pain to the child/ren,
but also the 6 figures of money paid that could have been avoided:
http://www.theprenup.org/index.html

(even low six figures -- that's a lot of money/points/airfare/trips/AF/etc...)
prenups are against halachah!
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Ergel on February 09, 2014, 12:05:09 PM
prenups are against halachah!


I signed one, but there are many rabbonim who have halachik issues with this. So that's unrealistic
Why the need to respond to it the way you did. There are rabbonim who support it. There are rabbonim against.
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 12:10:31 PM
you can remove your post on the top right side of the post...
not in tapatalk >:(
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 09, 2014, 12:12:13 PM
Why the need to respond to it the way you did. There are rabbonim who support it. There are rabbonim against.
For what its worth, the "prenup" is ridiculous.  (disregarding the  halachic implications and issues with messing around with gittin and kiddushin)

You actually signed that if your wife decides to leave you, for what ever reason, you are automatically obligated to pay her $150 a day.  Why would you do this?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 09, 2014, 12:12:34 PM
not in tapatalk >:(
tap, edit, remove?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Super Speed on February 09, 2014, 12:13:16 PM
prenups are against halachah!
Wow that's a real blank statement which isn't true. I personally didn't sign one but there are plenty of rabbonim who hold of it.

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
@ybeeds trust me I've got a lot to say, if you insist I can try to find a heter :)
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: elikay on February 09, 2014, 12:14:48 PM
tap, edit, remove?
not in my version
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: Super Speed on February 09, 2014, 12:16:50 PM
not in my version
BB?

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: BigDanFan on February 09, 2014, 12:55:59 PM
Why the need to respond to it the way you did. There are rabbonim who support it. There are rabbonim against.
+1
Many Rabbonim approve of this. Many are Orthodox. Many are Chabad. This is halachically acceptable prior to a kosher wedding.
Wow that's a real blank statement which isn't true. I personally didn't sign one but there are plenty of rabbonim who hold of it.
+1
totally..
For what its worth, the "prenup" is ridiculous.  (disregarding the  halachic implications and issues with messing around with gittin and kiddushin)

You actually signed that if your wife decides to leave you, for what ever reason, you are automatically obligated to pay her $150 a day.  Why would you do this?
-1
not at all..
It just says that when a couple becomes separated, living is diff residences, or legally/civilly divorced, and the spouse still refuses to give a get after the divorce, at that time, the $150/day is imposed to avoid making the 'get' a power tool.

Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: MarkS on February 09, 2014, 01:02:24 PM
Quote from: BigDanFan link=topic=33919.msg1#msg1
It just says that when a couple becomes separated, living is diff residences, or legally/civilly divorced, and the spouse still refuses to give a get after the divorce, at that time, the $150/day is imposed to avoid making the 'get' a power tool.
Hmm.. what about when it becomes a he says she says?
He says im willing to give a get ASAP if you agree to ABC and she says im willing to accept the get ASAP only if ABC dont apply and we agree to DEF? Who pays who the money?
Title: Re: another get story..
Post by: CS1 on February 09, 2014, 01:10:10 PM
Hmm.. what about when it becomes a he says she says?
He says im willing to give a get ASAP if you agree to ABC and she says im willing to accept the get ASAP only if ABC dont apply and we agree to DEF? Who pays who the money?
the same he says/she says applies in the legal world, as well. That's why the Beth Din of America documents
include the 3rd parties that the couple will go to if there is a problem.

I don't like that this gives the BDA the powers of 'binding arbitration', but it looks like any 3rd party can be appointed in their place in the doc.
http://www.theprenup.org/pdf/Prenup_Standard.pdf

PS - This whole thing is horrible to look at/read, however, considering what we all witnessed for the past year
in the NY Post, this looks like it will prevent that from happening.
Or, perhaps even more common, it can prevent the husband from thinking to declare to the wife,
"I don't care..., I'll never give you a get."
That can be so terrifying for any lady to hear, she may feel imprisoned/stuck for life. Maybe this doc will give them an even, balanced approach.