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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Chaikel on January 01, 2014, 08:45:19 PM

Title: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Chaikel on January 01, 2014, 08:45:19 PM
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

Please don't PM for details. They won't be answered
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ushdadude on January 01, 2014, 08:48:20 PM
So you mean i should ignore the sign in shul advertising a company that will apply for an AMEX plat on behalf of the shul and do all spending?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 01, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
Its very simple, when you swipe for a business you are lending money to a business, not an individual. There is a darn good reason why that business needs your credit card for cash flow...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on January 01, 2014, 08:50:54 PM
So you mean i should ignore the sign in shul advertising a company that will apply for an AMEX plat on behalf of the shul and do all spending?
You should ignore it for other reasons! :D

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 08:52:49 PM
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

Please don't PM for details. They won't be answered
very upsetting to hear:(
But so true!
I have a friend who got scammed by a friend of his into funding a summer camp with his card, after summer keeps telling him another day, another day.....
Don't think he ever saw the money yet,and he claims it was a "good" friend.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: raphy781 on January 01, 2014, 08:55:18 PM
Terrible when it happens with siblings/other family members.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: daganster on January 01, 2014, 08:56:47 PM
Once people are scammed they are usually ashamed, so they keep it to themselves and don't tell others. This may explain why there aren't so many stories surfacing. Bottom line the more it's discussed the more we can prevent future scams.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: menachem_m on January 01, 2014, 08:59:24 PM
If you do it on a business cc, can't that "business" just declare bankruptcy? It will still go on your personal credit report, but will you as an individual have to file as well?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: daganster on January 01, 2014, 09:05:33 PM
If you do it on a business cc, can't that "business" just declare bankruptcy? It will still go on your personal credit report, but will you as an individual have to file as well?
Regardless I don't think anyone wants to hire a bankruptcy lawyer.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 01, 2014, 09:07:46 PM
If you do it on a business cc, can't that "business" just declare bankruptcy? It will still go on your personal credit report, but will you as an individual have to file as well?
The business is most probably not a legal entity.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 01, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
Once people are scammed they are usually ashamed, so they keep it to themselves and don't tell others. This may explain why there aren't so many stories surfacing. Bottom line the more it's discussed the more we can prevent future scams.
Much like people who were molested as a child, nebach.
But, lately there's been a movement/website to expose predators and victims have come out with their stories, and I have no doubt it's helping minimize these stories.

I firmly believe there should be such a site put up for the wide community, the public should be warned to stay away from those individuals and these people should be put to shame for their actions.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 09:47:22 PM
Much like people who were molested as a child, nebach.
But, lately there's been a movement/website to expose predators and victims have come out with their stories, and I have no doubt it's helping minimize these stories.

I firmly believe there should be such a site put up for the wide community, the public should be warned to stay away from those individuals and these people should be put to shame for their actions.
I think @mesh spoke up about this in past threads.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: menachem_m on January 01, 2014, 09:49:59 PM
Not everyone does it on purpose...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 01, 2014, 09:51:32 PM
I think @mesh spoke up about this in past threads.
Link?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 09:55:56 PM
Link?
don't have but if I remember correctly it was in the stopover thread.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 01, 2014, 09:59:58 PM
So you mean i should ignore the sign in shul advertising a company that will apply for an AMEX plat on behalf of the shul and do all spending?
Was wondering, are there really suckers willing to leave their financial future in the hands of a total stranger for $5000?!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 10:13:58 PM
Link?
here I found it:
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=33259.0
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on January 01, 2014, 10:15:34 PM

here I found it:
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=33259.0
:D
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 01, 2014, 10:27:57 PM
here I found it:
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=33259.0
Nice humor, now let's get to business on this thread.
Thanks for the milsa dibdichusa.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 10:43:48 PM
Nice humor, now let's get to business on this thread.
Thanks for the milsa dibdichusa.
the business on this thread was about credit card lending fraud not about molestation, so, back to business...
IMO people should not give out their cards freely, however with proper research trust and small trial then it's ok.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 01, 2014, 10:49:14 PM
the business on this thread was about credit card lending fraud not about molestation, so, back to business...
IMO people should not give out their cards freely, however with proper research trust and small trial then it's ok.
Basically, if you would invest in their business then its ok to lend. If you dont trust the business aspect, you would need to know how the owner is going to pay you if it doesn't work.

A small trial is dangerous. He might be reeling you in...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: smee123 on January 01, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
Was wondering, are there really suckers willing to leave their financial future in the hands of a total stranger for $5000?!
unfortunately yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ushdadude on January 01, 2014, 11:01:26 PM
unfortunately yes

but only to meet a threshold ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Vosizderneias on January 01, 2014, 11:25:51 PM
Theres some dude that gets a bunch of crown heights guys to email ppl to buy iphones right when they come out. I tried convincing my buddy outta of it, but he laid out $50,000 in cc.
He surprisingly got paid back
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 01, 2014, 11:28:34 PM
Theres some dude that gets a bunch of crown heights guys to email ppl to buy iphones right when they come out. I tried convincing my buddy outta of it, but he laid out $50,000 in cc.
He surprisingly got paid back
hmmm, sounds familiar...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Avid Reader on January 01, 2014, 11:32:53 PM
Very good advice. This is important.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 02, 2014, 12:02:20 AM
the business on this thread was about credit card lending fraud not about molestation, so, back to business..
Exactly. I only brought up molestation to make a point about shaisters, not to joke around.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Vosizderneias on January 02, 2014, 12:24:25 AM

hmmm, sounds familiar...
?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on January 02, 2014, 12:31:12 AM
?
was offered recently and needed crazy spending done, but didn't do it.
I think it might involve a ddf member.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: jj1000 on January 02, 2014, 01:34:36 AM
@Chaikel this should go on DD FB as well.

I wish we had a list of scammers compiled, similar to lists of molesters.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rots5 on January 02, 2014, 03:32:50 AM
so sad to hear these stores. I recently told a friend who is new at the cc game that he should never swipe for people he doesnt know, in the end 100k UR is worthless if ur 100k in debt.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CountValentine on January 02, 2014, 03:40:33 AM
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

Please don't PM for details. They won't be answered
+Not A Number Big Enough For Speaking Out.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on January 02, 2014, 04:31:15 AM
I firmly believe there should be such a site put up for the wide community, the public should be warned to stay away from those individuals and these people should be put to shame for their actions.

+100

But it'll be really difficult to moderate w/o smearing people's names.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Chaikel on January 02, 2014, 06:54:19 AM
Theres some dude that gets a bunch of crown heights guys to email ppl to buy iphones right when they come out. I tried convincing my buddy outta of it, but he laid out $50,000 in cc.
He surprisingly got paid back
There are many honest people doing it. Not everyone is getting scammed. The point is be very careful. Realize that letting someone swipe on your card is no different than pulling out that money from your bank and lending it to him, or borrowing it from your parents/friends to give to him. Would you give $100k cash to a random person you meet for a promised return of $1000-2000?

But even if dealing with a 100% reputable, honest, trustworthy person, be clear on the risks and how will you get paid back. What happens if the merchandise gets lost/damaged/stolen. Will he pay you? How? "Don't worry about it" and "He has tons of money in the bank" aren't valid answers. Lehman Brothers had more money in their bank than the combined amounts of every person I've ever known. Things happen. Don't risk your financial future for a few 100k of points
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Reb Jo on January 02, 2014, 07:38:13 AM
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

Please don't PM for details. They won't be answered
+1000 and thanks for posting, I am sure it will help some people reconsider for the future!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on January 02, 2014, 08:44:35 AM
My very close relative is in huge debt from a scam, luckily he has a close friend who paid his 6 digit Amex bill just he shouldn't pay the 20%+ interest, but not everyone has this

Yes! It was a close friend... be careful don't lend money without a Mashkon (Halacha)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: how on January 02, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
I have done this for friends often but never big amounts and I always ask for cash on the spot
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on January 02, 2014, 09:20:32 AM
My very close relative is in huge debt from a scam, luckily he has a close friend who paid his 6 digit Amex bill just he shouldn't pay the 20%+ interest, but not everyone has this

Yes! It was a close friend... be careful don't lend money without a Mashkon (Halacha)
Can you share details (nothing personal obviously).
It helps when ppl see how they can easily slide into this.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dave321 on January 02, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
So you mean i should ignore the sign in shul advertising a company that will apply for an AMEX plat on behalf of the shul and do all spending?

Whats up with that?!

Someone showed me an ad in a lkwd paper saying that they can make your shul between 50-100k. Do they think that every guy in the shul:
a. has no cc
b. would just give over their social #?

Do people realize all the massive issue this makes?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 02, 2014, 09:48:04 AM
Thanks! The OP is pointing out how a common pitfall can be encountered by DDFers or anyone motivated to meet a spending threshold or getting extra points.

The same caution should be heeded when signing arvus on a chov. (guarantor on loan, ponyatno?) or stam lending someone cash or credit. The general principle is do not take on a risk that you can not afford, for example if you cosign a loan for $500, first think if you will be stuck with the debt if you can handle it.

There are mekoros for avoiding cosigning in general, as mention that not just the money but also the relationship can be ruined.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 02, 2014, 10:23:00 AM
I'm so confused by all of this. Is this a common thing in the Jewish community (or in general I guess), that people put large sums of money on their credit card for someone else, or for a business? How do the scammers (or maybe more importantly the 'legitimate' ones) convince people to do this? What's the pitch?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Salty on January 02, 2014, 10:35:39 AM
I'm so confused by all of this. Is this a common thing in the Jewish community (or in general I guess), that people put large sums of money on their credit card for someone else, or for a business? How do the scammers (or maybe more importantly the 'legitimate' ones) convince people to do this? What's the pitch?

Yes, common enough; we're nice people.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 02, 2014, 10:38:05 AM
Yes, common enough; we're nice people.
That and you get to keep the points.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 02, 2014, 10:58:39 AM
Is there a Ribis angle? I understand that the benefit is not coming directly from the borrower but still...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 02, 2014, 11:00:25 AM
That and you get to keep the points.
Aren't there potential ribbis issues with that too?

ETA: That was weird, don't know why it didn't warn me that someone posted while I was typing.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2014, 11:02:48 AM
Lo asrah Torah ela ribbis hbaah miloveh lamalveh
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 02, 2014, 11:11:17 AM
Aren't there potential ribbis issues with that too?

ETA: That was weird, don't know why it didn't warn me that someone posted while I was typing.
Great minds think alike.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: bochur123 on January 02, 2014, 11:18:12 AM
Theres some dude that gets a bunch of crown heights guys to email ppl to buy iphones right when they come out. I tried convincing my buddy outta of it, but he laid out $50,000 in cc.
He surprisingly got paid back
Small difference between that guy and others, others usually want you to lay out because they need more cash flow. This guy is not doing it for cash flow. There is a limit of 10 iphones per cc and he needs lots of them for his business. He pays back as soon as he receives them not after he sells them... So while there is obviously still a risk but its a bit different.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Nitantnel on January 02, 2014, 11:20:46 AM
@OP, how about making a poll like this one:

What was your experience when lending out your credit card?
-I never lent out my credit card.
-I lent out my credit card and did not have any issues.
-I lent out my credit card and unfortunately had serious issues.
-I am still waiting for payment on cards that I lent out to family or friends.
 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 02, 2014, 11:25:10 AM
Lo asrah Torah ela ribbis hbaah miloveh lamalveh
It may be ha'aromas ribbis. As always, ask your LOR.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rots5 on January 02, 2014, 12:00:25 PM
no ribis if its a gemach type loan... i asked a LOR who is very chashuv. i went thru the halachos with him about this. as well as extracting money from the ganav with or with out him knowing.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Nitantnel on January 02, 2014, 12:11:03 PM
On the note of Ribbis,

I had a friend who got scammed out of 20K. 

His father, who is a Ruv, did not let him charge his scammer the interest -- he still hopes that he will one day pay him back.

So he used his own savings to pay it up. :(
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 02, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
On the note of Ribbis,

I had a friend who got scammed out of 20K. 

His father, who is a Ruv, did not let him charge his scammer the interest -- he still hopes that he will one day pay him back.

So he used his own savings to pay it up. :(
Charging the interest would be clear Ribbis IINM
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2014, 12:19:57 PM
Charging the interest would be clear Ribbis IINM
Avak ribbis, but yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 02, 2014, 12:23:23 PM
no ribis if its a gemach type loan... i asked a LOR who is very chashuv. i went thru the halachos with him about this. as well as extracting money from the ganav with or with out him knowing.
I think there's a clear difference between someone who's doing it for another in need and someone who's doing it for the point/miles/cb profit of it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: real-brisker on January 02, 2014, 12:31:48 PM
I think there as important point missing here.

What is the guy spending the money on?

Meaning - is it something that if the deal goes sour there is nothing left,

Or is it, that there will be left with merchandise let's say, and it will be a hassle to sell and get rid of, but not necessarily a loss.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Nitantnel on January 02, 2014, 12:37:26 PM
I think there as important point missing here.

What is the guy spending the money on?

Meaning - is it something that if the deal goes sour there is nothing left,

Or is it, that there will be left with merchandise let's say, and it will be a hassle to sell and get rid of, but not necessarily a loss.



The OP mentions, and I think he makes a good point, that even such transactions can go wrong. It's worth it to be cautions when your lending money that you never had.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: kracked dude on January 02, 2014, 02:45:08 PM
Now I'm getting really angry reading this week's Lakewood publications
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rots5 on January 02, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I think there's a clear difference between someone who's doing it for another in need and someone who's doing it for the point/miles/cb profit of it.
so i asked the rav this. this is still called a loan! there is no interest or money made directly from the investment. this is not ribis... points. if there is direct intrest then its part of his investment and ppl can screw you for your money and wont have to pay... technically.

one receiving points is a whole different world....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 02, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
so i asked the rav this. this is still called a loan! there is no interest or money made directly from the investment. this is not ribis... points. if there is direct intrest then its part of his investment and ppl can screw you for your money and wont have to pay... technically.

one receiving points is a whole different world....

Sorry, I did not get your point, pun intended. But can you relate?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on January 02, 2014, 05:28:57 PM
Sorry, I did not get your point, pun intended. But can you relate?
He could re-explain, but it still won't come out in English  ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rots5 on January 02, 2014, 05:30:03 PM
Sorry, I did not get your point, pun intended. But can you relate?
basically when ur swiping your cc that is unrelated to the loan you are giving this so called friend. the loan your giving to your friend is more like a gemach loan where you dont plan on collecting any interest. if there is anything added that you are collecting bec of the loan you gave then the ganav wouldnt have to pay you back, bec its part of the investment.

points on the other hand is not a direct additive due to the loan you gave him.  from what i understood from the rav. since the points come along as swiping your card, its not really considered part of the loan. 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 02, 2014, 07:23:49 PM
basically when ur swiping your cc that is unrelated to the loan you are giving this so called friend. the loan your giving to your friend is more like a gemach loan where you dont plan on collecting any interest. if there is anything added that you are collecting bec of the loan you gave then the ganav wouldnt have to pay you back, bec its part of the investment.

points on the other hand is not a direct additive due to the loan you gave him.  from what i understood from the rav. since the points come along as swiping your card, its not really considered part of the loan.
Don't know if all poskim agree to the actual psak, but if you're paskening that the points aren't a problem, I like Ergel's answer (Lo asrah Torah ela ribbis hbaah miloveh lamalveh) much better - unless you're trying to say the same thing in a more lengthy and confusing way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 12:18:01 AM
+100

But it'll be really difficult to moderate w/o smearing people's names.

You want to smear their names if they're ruining other people's lives..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 12:24:23 AM
Charging the interest would be clear Ribbis IINM
Not if a heter iska is signed.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SamKey on January 03, 2014, 01:25:25 AM
+Not A Number Big Enough For Speaking Out.
knowing you it would be near impossible to get a phone number out of you, heck I saw you trying to block my view so I shouldn't get your license plate number ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on January 03, 2014, 06:04:06 AM
You want to smear their names if they're ruining other people's lives..
Of course.
I intended to write w/o smearing non-guilty ppl.
For example, if I had a beef w/ s/o, I'd make up a story so his name would go on the list. The stories would have to be vetted. Otherwise, you'd have slander legal issues.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: MosheP on January 03, 2014, 06:59:55 AM
Wouldn't you be able to dispute say a $10,000 charge made to your "friends" vendor/supplier if he didnt come up with the money?

Threat if this alone should make him paying you a priority... relationships are everything. If I had a payment disputed I would never deal with that customer again.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: how on January 03, 2014, 07:04:51 AM
Wouldn't you be able to dispute say a $10,000 charge made to your "friends" vendor/supplier if he didnt come up with the money?

Threat if this alone should make him paying you a priority... relationships are everything. If I had a payment disputed I would never deal with that customer again.
See the ethics thread
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 08:26:27 AM
Not if a heter iska is signed.
Something tells me neither you're not going to find too many of the 'borrowers' interested in that arrangement. Better off staying away entirely as a borrower than getting into heter iska. Remember, the people getting scammed are having the principle repayment withheld from them. You think they're going to be able to extract interest from the borrower?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 03, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
I'm assuming we're talking about a case that he just doesn't have the money. Not that he intentionally scammed you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 08:45:13 AM
Not if a heter iska is signed.
-1 you're charging him in a heter iska has nothing to do if he made or didn't make money or you were charged interest or not. The way a heter iska is structured is that you are setting up a chatzi milveh chatzi pikadon which would mean you split profits and losses equally. However you don't want exposure to losses so you agree that he must swear (or some other formulation which he's unlikely to fulfill) how much was gained loss. If he is unable to do that then you come up with an expected amount to be gained, agree to split the profits (say expected gain is 20%, and you take 10%).
Will make no difference if you were charged interest. Even if you sign a heter iska you can't charge the interest
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: MosheP on January 03, 2014, 08:45:26 AM
-1

As soon as your "friend" decided not to repay you, it's a stolen credit card. The vendor will refund you and your "friend" will figure out how to repay them, or risk ruining the relationship and/or get sued.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 08:46:34 AM
-1

As soon as your "friend" decided not to repay you, it's a stolen credit card. The vendor will refund you and your "friend" will figure out how to repay them, or risk ruining the relationship and/or get sued.
-1 you agreed to the charge. He didn't steal your card
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 09:16:18 AM
-1 you're charging him in a heter iska has nothing to do if he made or didn't make money or you were charged interest or not. The way a heter iska is structured is that you are setting up a chatzi milveh chatzi pikadon which would mean you split profits and losses equally. However you don't want exposure to losses so you agree that he must swear (or some other formulation which he's unlikely to fulfill) how much was gained loss. If he is unable to do that then you come up with an expected amount to be gained, agree to split the profits (say expected gain is 20%, and you take 10%).
Will make no difference if you were charged interest. Even if you sign a heter iska you can't charge the interest
If you were to set up a heter iska in this situation, it would be logical to structure it such that the agreement to replicate an interest bearing loan via the iska and its attendant details follows the same rules as the credit card does. Again, it seems to me that a complex heter iska setup is well beyond the scope of complexity in any of these swipe borrowing schemes, so it's not really relevant. But if for some reason you wanted to, you could definitely set up a heter iska to cover yourself from the potential charges, fees, etc. that you might incur on the cc.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2014, 09:21:27 AM
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 09:22:10 AM
If you were to set up a heter iska in this situation, it would be logical to structure it such that the agreement to replicate an interest bearing loan via the iska and its attendant details follows the same rules as the credit card does. Again, it seems to me that a complex heter iska setup is well beyond the scope of complexity in any of these swipe borrowing schemes, so it's not really relevant. But if for some reason you wanted to, you could definitely set up a heter iska to cover yourself from the potential charges, fees, etc. that you might incur on the cc.
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 09:24:26 AM
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
And what if they had called you to verify the charge and you agreed.
What if they ask you if you authorized him to make the charge? What happens if you lie and say no and then they deal with him directly and he proves you agreed to the charge? Losing 100k is bad. Facing criminal charges is worse
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
of course I would only do it if he doesn't have any email to prove that I authorized him to use the card.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 09:36:41 AM
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money
First of all, I never wrote anything about covering yourself from losing the principle. Heter iska was introduced to the conversation as a way to pass on any interest charges on the cc to the final borrower, which would certainly be asur without a heter iska. In fact, I pointed out that if you can't get the guy to pay you the principle, you're not likely going to get him to pay interest charges.

Second of all, while you can't set up a guarantee of your original loan, you can make it very difficult for the 'borrower' to halachically (very important caveat) not have to pay you the principle. This would only be necessary in the first place because of the investment structure that the heter iska creates. Without it the borrower would be 100% liable to you for the principle only in beis din (assuming you can prove that the charge was for him).
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 09:39:09 AM
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your interest charges only if you are charged them
FTFM
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 09:42:43 AM
FTFM
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 10:07:01 AM
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these swiping agreements work (as I stated with bewilderment earlier in this thread), but why wouldn't he agree? You only get charged interest if you carry a balance from month to month. Are they saying at the time of the agreement that they won't pay back for months? Then it's clear that they're just disguising a longer term interest free loan as a 'borrowing a credit car'. It makes no sense.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 10:08:00 AM
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 10:16:43 AM
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
And he can avoid paying anything other than the principle to you via the heter iska if he pays on time as well. Think of it as setting up the return on investment in the heter iska as a dividend. If you don't have any ownership stake on the date of the dividend you don't receive the dividend. If he pays off the principle 'early' the 'debt' is paid and the 'investment partnership' is dissolved.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 10:45:59 AM
I hear. I'd ask a rav. Sounds off to me
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 11:13:50 AM
This thread is going way OT.
Just to answer what someone said about charging interest being clear ribbis.
I know of such a story where a very respected LOR arranged a heter iska where the gains of the lender on top of the original loan were "כל הוצאות הבאנק", IIRC that even included the CC annual fees and late payment fees (I can try and find out) and, of course, the bank's interest.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
And they split them or he paid completely? Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 11:18:33 AM
And they split them or he paid completely?
Not sure what you mean by this.
Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
I think the LOR took it from a sefer where there are several types of heterei iska, he chose the one that was fit for this case, I don't think he wrote his own nusach, remind me after Shabbos and I can try to find out.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dbel23 on January 03, 2014, 02:03:17 PM
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 02:13:32 PM
@txtmx4 if you do find that source for the heterei iska, please share!
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this (http://www.jlaw.com/Forms/) page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2014, 02:15:46 PM
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 03, 2014, 02:17:18 PM
Since when do vendors accept CC at that level anyway?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 03, 2014, 02:21:21 PM
Most cards verify that the charge is legit at that spending level.
Not all of them charge 100k in one shot. Its like $5-10k in one transaction, which doesnt raise any flags IME.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: whYME on January 03, 2014, 02:34:56 PM
Not necessarily are the charges legit even if the AH agreed to them.
For example, there was a story (with a DDFer) where he allowed the scammer to by goods with the card but the scammer used it to get cash instead.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dans fan on January 03, 2014, 03:01:37 PM
a wise man once advised me, "only lend money that you can afford to give as tzedakah". although for scammers or biz that goes sour the tzedakah angel wont help
i heard that the satmar rav (rabainu yoel i think not very familiar with the dynasty) used to say when a minhag is against halacha what do you do " a minhag is stronger than halacha" , look around the halacha is if you borrow money you must pay back and the minhag is not to
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dans fan on January 03, 2014, 03:11:02 PM
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yungerman on January 03, 2014, 04:32:42 PM
maybe a little off topic, two points on above discussion
as far as being repayed by scammers or risky/wild transactions, some (only some) cases fall into the klal of heniach maosav al keren hatzvi, most cases dont but being that you are the motzi it can be difficult to get your money back in bais din (its another reason not to lend s/o money you cant evan win in b'd)
borrowing from a credit card many would say he never actually borrowed from you but directly from the bank (this does have ribis ramifications ) and therefore he owes them money and not you , the fact that you are left with the bill, bad credit, interest, ect would be grama or garmi. just another reason why you may never see your money back

Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 04, 2014, 08:44:43 PM
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
And the more important ramification is that since the borrower has a chov to the lender and not the bank, there's no grama or garmi, it's a direct chov that should be collectible in beis din (assuming you can prove that the chov exists).
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 04, 2014, 11:38:25 PM
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yungerman on January 05, 2014, 12:38:25 AM
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 05, 2014, 01:03:57 AM
You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yungerman on January 05, 2014, 01:49:04 AM
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 05, 2014, 01:52:29 AM
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rots5 on January 05, 2014, 02:21:14 AM
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.


if im following a correctly, youngerman is stating that if someone lent another guy his cc and didnt pay it back then the lender has to pay the intrest (late payment fees) and not the borrower....

this is 100% true!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 05, 2014, 07:13:25 AM
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dbel23 on January 05, 2014, 12:23:46 PM
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this (http://www.jlaw.com/Forms/) page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

i see... thanks anyway
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 05, 2014, 12:52:40 PM
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 05, 2014, 01:03:14 PM
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.
the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhakak on January 05, 2014, 01:44:15 PM
I would disagree, for the simple reason that if the owner of the card contested the charge and told the cc company they let someone else use their card, their funds would not be returned. Ergo, the owner of the card is taking a risk, which makes him a party to the transaction.

the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dans fan on January 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
you are mixing up hilchos ribis (yoreh daiah) with choshen mispat, many say that the one who used the credidit card cannot pay the ribis that is a isur veheter so lechumra you may not pay ribis but choshen  mishpat is different. for ex. mr A uses mr B credit card without permission then the credit card holder didnt borrow from bank and re lend it, so its not because its your account that its a automatic borrow and relend. but more because you mean to borrow and re lend, and that can be debated when you mean to borrow for ex. in our case many would never do a cash advance and then lend the cash to these scammers so you may not mean to borrow and relend, there are other reasons olso , the main point is in choshen mishpat if its not 100% clear he can alwys say kim li its very hard to be motzi money from someone not looking to pay back
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yzj on January 07, 2014, 12:17:03 AM
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2014, 12:28:00 AM
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 01:04:12 AM
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 01:06:47 AM
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
so its not anti semitism when they go after a whole Jewish community
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 01:22:27 AM
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 01:26:06 AM
Can someone post  copy of the ad for the non-lakewood Jews
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Joe4007 on January 07, 2014, 01:42:32 AM
Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.
I'm not familiar with this particular scenario, but having the word SHUL in the ad brings me to believe that they ask for a lot of names to apply for.

Regarding the 100K, I assume they take a commission.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 07, 2014, 08:01:06 AM
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

First time I was in Geula a kid came over to me with story, wallet stolen, needs money for bus... I asked him if he has change of a hundred, he started to pull it out. I grabbed his hsirt and said "if I ever see you do such a thing again...".

I had got the idea from a Country Yossi article I once read. The crook hears money coming and loses his cool. Works in many parts of dealing...

The lesson for US is that the Yetzer Hara entices us with exciting stuff and we lose our equilibrium and clear thinking. השוחד עיני חכמים יעור ויסלף דברים של צדיקים
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Malachi on January 07, 2014, 08:09:50 AM
so its not anti semitism when they go after a whole Jewish community
you know that people who signed up through these ads were f/red or are you just assuming?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 07, 2014, 08:23:57 AM
F/Red or not. It doesn't matter.
This guy is doing something not kosher. people should stay away.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 11:38:23 AM
you know that people who signed up through these ads were f/red or are you just assuming?
I was just referring to the guy that "said talk about s big target on Lakewood"
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 07, 2014, 11:50:40 AM
Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.
Its 100K$$$!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on January 07, 2014, 12:16:14 PM
Guys (some of you), you don't know everything. Those who know know and it's not the right forum to discuss this in detail.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 12:17:05 PM
Its 100K$$$!

Makes no sense. How does it work?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Malachi on January 07, 2014, 03:33:06 PM
F/Red or not. It doesn't matter.
This guy is doing something not kosher. people should stay away.
you think it's not kosher to do a fully refundable ticket?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 07, 2014, 04:02:36 PM
you think it's not kosher to do a fully refundable ticket?
Are you that guy?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 04:05:54 PM
Someone please explain the scheme to me!!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on January 07, 2014, 04:29:03 PM
Someone please explain the scheme to me!!!!

Don't get so excited.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 04:29:56 PM
Don't get so excited.

I take back two of my three exclamation points.

Can you, pretty please with sugar on top, explain to me how the scheme works?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 07, 2014, 04:36:02 PM
Can someone post  copy of the ad for the non-lakewood Jews
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 07, 2014, 04:37:30 PM
What goes on in 08701 stays in 08701.  :o :o :-X :-X

Not everything has to be posted on DDF.  :o :o
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on January 07, 2014, 04:39:22 PM
What goes on in 08701 stays in 08701.  :o :o :-X :-X

Not everything has to be posted on DDF.  :o :o

It's also in BP. Maybe not same guy.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 04:45:03 PM
What goes on in 08701 stays in 08701.  :o :o :-X :-X

Not everything has to be posted on DDF.  :o :o

Please, PM me? I am soooo curious.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 07, 2014, 04:45:28 PM
It's also in BP. Maybe not same guy.
Seen it in Montreal too...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ephcc90 on January 07, 2014, 04:53:11 PM
Also far rockaway
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: sruly101 on January 07, 2014, 04:57:49 PM
What the heck? can some1 say whats going on here?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 07, 2014, 04:59:13 PM
What the heck? can some1 say whats going on here?
+100
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: efflpetzel on January 07, 2014, 05:02:16 PM
+10000 please.... :'(
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 07, 2014, 05:06:12 PM
What is so complicated? This is one of the premises of a site called dansdeals.com You can make a lot of points and money by signing up to credit cards. Wow! That was complicated!

Maybe the chidush is that azoi vi dos is shayich tzu machen far de shvuger, oichet ken tuun far noch a mentsh! (?)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 07, 2014, 05:09:59 PM
What is so complicated? This is one of the premises of a site called dansdeals.com You can make a lot of points and money by signing up to credit cards. Wow! That was complicated!

Maybe the chidush is that azoi vi dos is shayich tzu machen far de shvuger, oichet ken tuun far noch a mentsh! (?)
How about that guy earning referrals on each app? You didn't think about that, huh?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 07, 2014, 05:32:26 PM
Seen it in Montreal too...
Found it...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 07, 2014, 05:36:30 PM
Where can i find the offer for gold? $500 in 3 months?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 07, 2014, 05:37:33 PM
And while we're at it, 1000 in 3 months for spg?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SamKey on January 07, 2014, 05:39:10 PM
Found it...
This is different then the one we're referring to
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 07, 2014, 05:40:27 PM
60k for the plat?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: A3 on January 07, 2014, 05:46:53 PM
Those are Canadian offers ....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 06:44:51 PM
There is a name on the offer someone should take him to a dark alley....
How many people's finance's do they have to ruin
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 07, 2014, 07:46:06 PM
There is a name on the offer someone should take him to a dark alley....
How many people's finance's do they have to ruin?
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 07, 2014, 07:48:57 PM
Please, PM me? I am soooo curious.
Something tells me it's a little more then curiousity ;) ...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Malachi on January 07, 2014, 08:40:47 PM
Are you that guy?
no, I'm just not getting the anger in this thread. There are bad people and good people doing this like everything in life.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Nitantnel on January 07, 2014, 08:47:28 PM
no, I'm just not getting the anger in this thread. There are bad people and good people doing this like everything in life.

I am sure the people doing this are good people, but this business crosses the line IMO.

#justsayin
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 07, 2014, 09:48:14 PM
i think there is another point missing here: some people build up a broad network of "clients" and they deal very honestly but once they get big enough and built enough trust they canat once mess over a ton of people and run off. i believe this is a common online sale scam
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Malachi on January 07, 2014, 10:59:54 PM
i think there is another point missing here: some people build up a broad network of "clients" and they deal very honestly but once they get big enough and built enough trust they canat once mess over a ton of people and run off. i believe this is a common online sale scam
very valid point.  But don't you think that it's a bit over the top to write  let's take this guy to a dark alley?! Maybe the guy is honest. You gotta be careful before writing stuff like that IMO.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 07, 2014, 11:55:25 PM
Will someone please explain already how this scheme works? :o
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 08, 2014, 12:02:12 AM
Found it...
intereting... It says "up to $3,000" for a couple..
3 cards each - so, it's for 6 approved cards, incl. SPG, referrals, etc
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yzj on January 08, 2014, 01:59:07 AM
Wrong ad. They are offering as much as $5000 per couple. $100,000 for a shul or mosad in as little as 1 month. Trail of FR's is not an assumption- it is a fact. Lets just say there's a lot more MR points that can be finagled than people realize. 08701 is a big target but these guys are milking it for all they can while the going is good. Lot of negative potential here.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 08, 2014, 02:00:50 AM
Wrong ad. They are offering as much as $5000 per couple. $100,000 for a shul or mosad in as little as 1 month. Trail of FR's is not an assumption- it is a fact. Lets just say there's a lot more MR points that can be finagled than people realize. 08701 is a big target but these guys are milking it for all they can while the going is good. Lot of negative potential here.

Damn it! I cannot wrap my head around how this scheme works!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 08, 2014, 02:24:00 AM
Damn it! I cannot wrap my head around how this scheme works!
Give it up, man! No one with an IQ of 50+ is gonna post it on DDF. Seriously...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 08, 2014, 02:33:52 AM
Give it up, man! No one with an IQ of 50+ is gonna post it on DDF. Seriously...

Where is that one shotah when you need one??? >:(
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 08, 2014, 02:36:32 AM
Where is that one shotah when you need one??? >:(
ALOL
When you find him, please communicate via PM. No need to mess this up for others...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 08, 2014, 02:37:56 AM
ALOL
When you find him, please communicate via PM. No need to mess this up for others...

So you're the one putting up the signs!!! Then you PM me!!! Please, I can't sleep.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2014, 03:22:30 AM
So you're the one putting up the signs!!! Then you PM me!!! Please, I can't sleep.
OK I'll put you out of your misery.
 
There is a special synagogue sign up bonus available on the "platinum amex for non profits." It give 2.5 million MR points after 25k spend! (If you pay for a kiddush it counts as double! :-X)
The trick is that its really a targeted offer for chabbad houses. There is a guy in Lakewood who has multiple chabbad houses under his name to they are renaming all the Lakewood shuls "770" and making off with the loot!
This has not hit the blogs yet. So let's keep this "in house"!.

I hope you now have very sweet dream!

 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 08, 2014, 07:17:37 AM
OK I'll put you out of your misery.
 
There is a special synagogue sign up bonus available on the "platinum amex for non profits." It give 2.5 million MR points after 25k spend! (If you pay for a kiddush it counts as double! :-X)
The trick is that its really a targeted offer for chabbad houses. There is a guy in Lakewood who has multiple chabbad houses under his name to they are renaming all the Lakewood shuls "770" and making off with the loot!
This has not hit the blogs yet. So let's keep this "in house"!.

I hope you now have very sweet dream!

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: meshugener on January 08, 2014, 08:37:04 AM
ALOL!
Good job CBC.....

Either way, this Freddie is my favorite DDFer.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yzj on January 08, 2014, 09:51:44 AM
Probably too late to jump on the bandwagon. There's some chatter from sources outside the points/ MS community about Amex looking at taking some course of action, but its just completely unconfirmed chatter right now. They are slow so even if true this will take a while to play out, especially if it involves legal dept. but best guess is that this avenue is winding down in the short term.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Malachi on January 08, 2014, 10:07:51 AM
Probably too late to jump on the bandwagon. There's some chatter about Amex looking at taking some course of action, but its just completely unconfirmed chatter right now. They are slow so even if true this will take a while to play out, especially if it involves legal dept. but best guess is that this avenue is winding down in the short term.
source?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 08, 2014, 10:20:00 AM
Probably too late to jump on the bandwagon. There's some chatter about Amex looking at taking some course of action, but its just completely unconfirmed chatter right now. They are slow so even if true this will take a while to play out, especially if it involves legal dept. but best guess is that this avenue is winding down in the short term.
if done "right" it could still be hard to track...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 08, 2014, 11:19:33 AM
very valid point.  But don't you think that it's a bit over the top to write  let's take this guy to a dark alley?! Maybe the guy is honest. You gotta be careful before writing stuff like that IMO.
it was not intended in actuality
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2014, 11:20:23 AM
if done "right" it could still be hard to track...
-1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 08, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
-1
all about moderation...

(patience, and no greed.. is that even possible in NJ?)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on January 08, 2014, 03:29:49 PM
if done "right" it could still be hard to track...
I guess you mean proxies etc. Amex is not stupid. It's easy enough for them to feed these guys a few "customers" and simply follow the trail. sounds like they are playing with fire if yzj is correct. BTW, the ad is on the cover page of the weekend Hamodia that came out today. $5000 for individuals, $50,000 to $100,000 per shul.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2014, 03:32:24 PM
I guess you mean proxies etc. Amex is not stupid. It's easy enough for them to feed these guys a few "customers" and simply follow the trail. sounds like they are playing with fire if yzj is correct. BTW, the ad is on the cover page of the weekend Hamodia that came out today. $5000 for individuals, $50,000 to $100,000 per shul.
Forget amex, it might be the mail and wire fraud guys that will be doing tracking...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on January 08, 2014, 03:50:16 PM
Amex will have to crack down with all this publicity.
Greedy idiots.
Only thing missing is a front-page ad in the NYT
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 08, 2014, 03:56:28 PM
... BTW, the ad is on the cover page of the weekend Hamodia that came out today. $5000 for individuals, $50,000 to $100,000 per shul.
very NOT smart...!...

that's not what i meant when i wrote patience, moderation, and not being greedy...  ..yuk no cover page ever..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 08, 2014, 04:26:20 PM
very NOT smart...!...
 no cover page ever..

Is that like saying "no main site ever"?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 08, 2014, 04:59:15 PM
Is that like saying "no main site ever"?
site ad can disappear in seconds... (still risky) a paper's cover page is in print forever...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2014, 05:05:12 PM
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
There is a fascinating sefer called "Ha'check Be'halacha", two volumes. He thoroughly analyzes modern banking transactions as they apply to Choshen mishpat, Y"D, O"C and E'H. With many sources from contemporary poskim. Very interesting read !

(Now back to our regular scheduled programming)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CountValentine on January 08, 2014, 07:59:00 PM
BTW, the ad is on the cover page of the weekend Hamodia that came out today. $5000 for individuals, $50,000 to $100,000 per shul.
Link?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Matisyahu on January 08, 2014, 11:04:47 PM
So you mean i should ignore the sign in shul advertising a company that will apply for an AMEX plat on behalf of the shul and do all spending?
One has nothing to do with the other.
In the opening thread  he is asking that a person who is willing to lend someone money on their credit card as a loan should be aware of the possibility that the borrower can default on that loan and may have a hard time paying him back. Here the risk of borrowing money is on the lender.

Your question is based on a company's advertisement to make you money., here the risk of opening the cards, spending the money, paying the money, is all on the company offering this service. What's the question it's a win win service just ask them for any references before signing up
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avremie on January 08, 2014, 11:54:23 PM
One has nothing to do with the other.
In the opening thread  he is asking that a person who is willing to lend someone money on their credit card as a loan should be aware of the possibility that the borrower can default on that loan and may have a hard time paying him back. Here the risk of borrowing money is on the lender.

Your question is based on a company's advertisement to make you money., here the risk of opening the cards, spending the money, paying the money, is all on the company offering this service. What's the question it's a win win service just ask them for any references before signing up
with all due respect sir this is your first post so i will take what you say with many grains of salt
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 09, 2014, 01:52:34 AM
with all due respect sir this is your first post so i will take what you say with many grains of salt
+1000
Intriguing...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on January 09, 2014, 02:02:47 AM
+1000
Intriguing...

You know how they catch pyromaniacs? At every fire, there's always a crowd. In that crowd, there's a guy that looks a little too "aroused." He starts asking everyone, "How do they think it started?"
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 09, 2014, 02:13:02 AM
You know how they catch pyromaniacs? At every fire, there's always a crowd. In that crowd, there's a guy that looks a little too "aroused." He starts asking everyone, "How do they think it started?"
LOL
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmuelb on January 09, 2014, 05:38:55 PM
Wow! Lot's of deep stuff here!!  :P

Your question is based on a company's advertisement to make you money., here the risk of opening the cards, spending the money, paying the money, is all on the company offering this service. What's the question it's a win win service just ask them for any references before signing up

What do you mean? If it gets messed up, your credit is messed up and you have to pay.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CountValentine on January 09, 2014, 05:40:49 PM
Link? My PM works.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: oisher on January 09, 2014, 06:33:00 PM
Seriously, 'swiping' a credit card presents a halachic question of Ribis.
Rabbinic advice necessary.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: SamKey on January 10, 2014, 01:15:20 PM
Seriously, 'swiping' a credit card presents a halachic question of Ribis.
Rabbinic advice necessary.
it's Halachically prohibited to swipe a CC? :-\
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: voldemort on January 12, 2014, 10:49:59 AM
Seriously, 'swiping' a credit card presents a halachic question of Ribis.
Rabbinic advice necessary.
i have asked my lor in the past,there is no problem with swiping,however in the unfortunate event that he can't pay back,it is ribis for him to reimburse the intrest charges 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: elikay on January 12, 2014, 11:51:33 AM
it's Halachically prohibited to swipe a CC? :-\
::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JustaHocker on January 12, 2014, 11:12:02 PM
If it's the centurion, you may need to toivel it in Lake Carasaljo.
Sounds like the same genius who wrote in to one of the Jewish papers this past week....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: HP58 on January 13, 2014, 01:45:54 AM
If it's the centurion, you may need to toivel it in Lake Carasaljo.
Sounds like the same genius who wrote in to one of the Jewish papers this past week....
Wrote what?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: BigDanFan on January 13, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
i have asked my lor in the past,there is no problem with swiping,however in the unfortunate event that he can't pay back,it is ribis for him to reimburse the intrest charges
why would it be ribis for the yid to pay the monthly cc bill (which of course includes the 19%+ interest rate) of the other yid?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 09:44:52 AM
why would it be ribis for the yid to pay the monthly cc bill (which of course includes the 19%+ interest rate) of the other yid?
If the guy who used the money is considered to be borrowing directly from the cc company, then everything is fine, the cc holder (the middle man) is not involved in the transaction and there is no ribbis. But if you view it (as most poskim do) as a loan from the cc company to the card holder, and a second loan from the cc holder to the final borrower, then the cc holder cannot ask the final borrower to reimburse him for any cc related charges above and beyond the actual loan amount, because that would be ribbis on the loan between the cc holder and the borrower.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: voldemort on January 13, 2014, 11:28:32 AM
If the guy who used the money is considered to be borrowing directly from the cc company, then everything is fine, the cc holder (the middle man) is not involved in the transaction and there is no ribbis. But if you view it (as most poskim do) as a loan from the cc company to the card holder, and a second loan from the cc holder to the final borrower, then the cc holder cannot ask the final borrower to reimburse him for any cc related charges above and beyond the actual loan amount, because that would be ribbis on the loan between the cc holder and the borrower.
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: BigDanFan on January 13, 2014, 11:57:56 AM
If the guy who used the money is considered to be borrowing directly from the cc company, then everything is fine, the cc holder (the middle man) is not involved in the transaction and there is no ribbis. But if you view it (as most poskim do) as a loan from the cc company to the card holder, and a second loan from the cc holder to the final borrower, then the cc holder cannot ask the final borrower to reimburse him for any cc related charges above and beyond the actual loan amount, because that would be ribbis on the loan between the cc holder and the borrower.
-1
however, the loan is really from the cc to the borrower,
bec that borower would normally get his own cc, but cannot due to credit score, etc... so no ribis..
(However if cc owner is benefitting from points, payment bonuses, etc.. then it's obv. a perk to the cc owner, so he's not just doing it as a straight favor..)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 13, 2014, 12:00:28 PM
-1
however, the loan is really from the cc to the borrower,
bec that borower would normally get his own cc, but cannot due to credit score, etc... so no ribis..
(However if cc owner is benefitting from points, payment bonuses, etc.. then it's obv. a perk to the cc owner, so he's not just doing it as a straight favor..)
where did you get this from?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2014, 12:03:09 PM
-1
however, the loan is really from the cc to the borrower,
bec that borower would normally get his own cc, but cannot due to credit score, etc... so no ribis..
(However if cc owner is benefitting from points, payment bonuses, etc.. then it's obv. a perk to the cc owner, so he's not just doing it as a straight favor..)
Meaning, the CC doesn't want to lend money to the borrower so he is borrowing from you instead...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 13, 2014, 12:07:14 PM
Meaning, the CC doesn't want to lend money to the borrower so he is borrowing from you instead...
+1 exactly

he doesn't have the access to get it from the bank. but you do..
either way, the money does not belong to me/you
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 12:08:17 PM
-1
however, the loan is really from the cc to the borrower,
bec that borower would normally get his own cc, but cannot due to credit score, etc... so no ribis..
(However if cc owner is benefitting from points, payment bonuses, etc.. then it's obv. a perk to the cc owner, so he's not just doing it as a straight favor..)
You're -1'ing facts. You can view it however you'd like, the poskim for the most part hold that the loan is not directly between the final borrower and the cc company. A good proof of that is that the cc holder is the one that is legally responsible for the debt.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 12:09:16 PM
+1 exactly

he doesn't have the access to get it from the bank. but you do..
either way, the money does not belong to me/you
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2014, 12:16:41 PM
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.
Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: voldemort on January 13, 2014, 12:22:55 PM
Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.
true,however even if the cc company would indeed lend to the final borrower but he still uses your cc for some odd reason its still considered as if u lent him after cc lent you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 13, 2014, 12:23:35 PM
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.

Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.

in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2014, 12:26:56 PM
in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
I'm not sure where you got that from, when your card gets swiped you take out a loan from your CC and agree to pay all the fees and interests associated with that loan, the fact that that money ended up by someone else has nothing to do with the transaction between you and the CC company, it's a separate loan between you and the borrower.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 12:31:06 PM
in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on January 13, 2014, 12:34:13 PM
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.
k - challenge accepted.. (i've got some fam/friends in the business..  8) )
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 01:41:12 PM
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.
I mentioned the sefer "ha'check behalacha" up thread. (IIRC) he also reaches the logical conclusion that the mechanism of a CC swipe is vastly different from a normal loan from A to B via usage of a debit card.
He also brings many sources.

As a ddf'r this should not be complicated to understand!
 The CC company pays merchants and also bills users. Two totally separate arrangements.
I'm assuming that most ppl don't really take the time to properly analyze CC transactions before reaching the simplistic but technically incorrect understanding that A is lending B money.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 02:00:17 PM
I mentioned the sefer "ha'check behalacha" up thread. (IIRC) he also reaches the logical conclusion that the mechanism of a CC swipe is vastly different from a normal loan from A to B via usage of a debit card.
He also brings many sources.

As a ddf'r this should not be complicated to understand!
 The CC company pays merchants and also bills users. Two totally separate arrangements.
I'm assuming that most ppl don't really take the time to properly analyze CC transactions before reaching the simplistic but technically incorrect understanding that A is lending B money.
You have yet to explain how your explanation about the dual transaction nature of a credit card swipe has any bearing on this dicussion. The fact that the cc pays merchants and bills users has nothing to do with whether or not they're billing the cc holder or the 'user' - in this case the final borrower. The fact is they don't bill the final borrower, they bill the cc holder. Ergo the cc holder holds owes debt to the cc company, not the final borrower. Post a quote from the sefer, I don't know where to find it.

Here's a quote from Rabbi Reisman (link (http://books.google.com/books?id=Awn9ldRs3mAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA311#v=onepage&q&f=false)):
Quote
     It is a fairly common practice for someone who is short of cash to borrow a credit card from a friend or relative, and make a purchase with it. When this happens, the person using the card must pay the card owner only the amount of money he actually used for his purchase. He may not pay the finance charges, which accumulate as a result of his purchase. This prohibition applies even if he pay the bank directly.28

28   This is an application of Y.D. 168:17; Mishnas Ribbis 17:7. The reason that his is prohibited is that the bank (or credit card company) which issued the card is lending money to the cardholder. He, in turn, is lending the money to his friend, so that he can make a purchase. This must be viewed as two distinct loans. The first loan was issued by the bank to the cardholder, and he is responsible to make payments to the bank. Interest which is charged on that loan is charged to him. The person who used the card borrowed money from a fellow Jew, and is prohibited from paying more than the exact amount which was borrowed.
     This prohibition applies even when the person using the card pays the bank directly, because payments which are made to the account of the cardholder are considered payments made directly to him.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 02:22:04 PM
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 03:08:22 PM
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.
Ahh... I see, so they charge interest on these credit cards for some other reason, not because it's a loan.

Who wrote this sefer whose shita you are relaying? Are you planning on posting a quote, or at least telling us where we can find it? Rabbi Reisman is known as a leading authority on the topic of ribbis, especially as it applies to modern commerce. Your view of the transaction is a novel approach, but it has to have basis. A debit card or a check would be exactly as you describe, but I can't fathom how you can ignore the 'credit' portion of a credit card.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 13, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.
Goodness. Quote someone already or stop with this shtus
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 03:25:49 PM
Ok here is a link to the Sefer (http://www.zolsefer.co.il/%D7%94%D7%A6-%D7%99%D7%A7-%D7%91%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94-%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99-%D7%A2%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%99-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%A7.html), it is found in many shuls in Lakewood that have decent libraries. It is a fairly new sefer.
There is no pdf to link to, It will be difficult to post half the sefer where he analyzes the CC but next time I am in a B"M and have time I will bln browse for some "sources" to this "shtus".



[BTW, Whats it called when A gives money to C on B's behalf? A loan...? ]
Again, I am not saying that ribis would never apply, just that its not a regular loan.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 03:47:11 PM
Ok here is a link to the Sefer (http://www.zolsefer.co.il/%D7%94%D7%A6-%D7%99%D7%A7-%D7%91%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%94-%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%98%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99-%D7%A2%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%99-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%A7.html), it is found in many shuls in Lakewood that have decent libraries. It is a fairly new sefer.
There is no pdf to link to, It will be difficult to post half the sefer where he analyzes the CC but next time I am in a B"M and have time I will bln browse for some "sources" to this "shtus".



[BTW, Whats it called when A gives money to C on B's behalf? A loan...? ]
Again, I am not saying that ribis would never apply, just that its not a regular loan.
What you are describing is essentially payment processing, and that is a feature of credit cards that is shared by debit cards and checks. Credit cards have the added feature of creating a loan. That loan is between the cc holder and the cc company. Perforce, there is a second loan between the cc holder and the final borrower.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 03:52:13 PM
What you are describing is essentially payment processing, and that is a feature of credit cards that is shared by debit cards and checks. Credit cards have the added feature of creating a loan. That loan is between the cc holder and the cc company. Perforce, there is a second loan between the cc holder and the final borrower.
With a DC the merchant only gets paid after confirmation that there is cash available in the owners account. The bank is not laying out any money at all. It is a direct payment from the owner to the merchant and therefore is a loan if someone els is using his DC.

With a CC the bank pays the merchant and separately bills the holder. The merchant relies on the CC bank to pay him (With Visa/MC its immediate and with AMEX a couple of days iirc). The holder is not part of the transaction in any way and is billed on a separate pre agreed upon schedule.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 04:08:48 PM
With a DC the merchant only gets paid after confirmation that there is cash available in the owners account. The bank is not laying out any money at all. It is a direct payment from the owner to the merchant and therefore is a loan if someone els is using his DC.

With a CC the bank pays the merchant and separately bills the holder. The merchant relies on the CC bank to pay him (With Visa/MC its immediate and with AMEX a couple of days iirc). The holder is not part of the transaction in any way and is billed on a separate pre agreed upon schedule.
I don't know why you keep bringing up the merchant. We don't care about the merchant. Are you disputing the fact that in every cc transaction (including when a person uses their own cc) the cc holder is borrowing money?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 04:13:21 PM
I don't know why you keep bringing up the merchant. We don't care about the merchant. Are you disputing the fact that in every cc transaction (including when a person uses their own cc) the cc holder is borrowing money?
correct. This is not a halachic loan. He may be obligated to pay the CC back under other halchos but not malveh loveh.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
correct. This is not a halachic loan. He may be obligated to pay the CC back under other halchos but not malveh loveh.
In what way is this not a halachic loan? If that's the case, you also would be able to get a cc from a Jewish cc company and pay interest on it. After all, it's not a loan.

Out of curiosity, does the author pasken this way on his own, or does he quote others who pasken this way?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 04:32:27 PM
In what way is this not a halachic loan? If that's the case, you also would be able to get a cc from a Jewish cc company and pay interest on it. After all, it's not a loan.

Out of curiosity, does the author pasken this way on his own, or does he quote others who pasken this way?
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.

The last time I read the sefer was months ago, it is full of footnotes and sources.
All I am pointing out is that the CC is more complicated halachically than a regular loan. This has implications in many many halochos. I dont claim to know the bottom line, especially when it comes to ribis.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 13, 2014, 04:40:53 PM
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.
whats the difference if A gives money to C without it going through B? or if B took the money from A and then gave to C?
In both cases B is borrowing money from A to give money to C.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 04:44:20 PM
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.

The last time I read the sefer was months ago, it is full of footnotes and sources.
All I am pointing out is that the CC is more complicated halachically than a regular loan. This has implications in many many halochos. I dont claim to know the bottom line, especially when it comes to ribis.
Your (I realize you're just quoting the sefer, you're his proxy on this thread, sorry ;D) presumption that A is giving money to C on behalf of B, as opposed to A lending to B and B lending to C, seems disconnected with reality.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 04:45:26 PM
whats the difference if A gives money to C without it going through B? or if B took the money from A and then gave to C?
In both cases B is borrowing money from A to give money to C.
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 04:46:43 PM
Your (I realize you're just quoting the sefer, you're his proxy on this thread, sorry ;D) presumption that A is giving money to C on behalf of B, as opposed to A lending to B and B lending to C, seems disconnected with reality.
Not at all. You do agree that this is technically what is happening, after all A will pay C regardless to whether or not B pays A?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on January 13, 2014, 04:57:20 PM
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?
In this case A doesn't know C, doesn't know the money is going to C and would actually be Moicheh if he found out the money was going to C.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 05:04:19 PM
Quote
הילך מנה והתקדשי לפלוני מקודשת מדין עבד כנעני. עבד כנעני לאו אף ע"ג דלא קא חסר ולא מידי קא קני נפשיה האי גברא נמי אע"ג דלא קא חסר ולא מידי קא קני לה להאי איתתא
Here too B(cc holder) is not paying anything.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 05:08:56 PM
Here too A(cc holder) is not paying anything.
A was the cc company, I have no idea what you're trying to say.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on January 13, 2014, 05:11:05 PM
for clarification
A - cc company
B - cc holder
C - merchant
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on January 13, 2014, 05:21:14 PM
Here too B(cc holder) is not paying anything.
How is he not paying anything? If the bill isn't paid, do they not charge interest on his account and eventually send collection agencies to him? Of course he's paying!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 13, 2014, 05:30:04 PM
How is he not paying anything? If the bill isn't paid, do they not charge interest on his account and eventually send collection agencies to him? Of course he's paying!
What did D (friend) do to cause B to be obligated to pay money? (Even principal)
He swiped a card. The card is an agreement btwn B an A that says that A will give C money.
 When A does give C money, this causes a hischayvus between B and A, this hischayvus would not be a chov rather a hischayvus midin eved.

The $48k question is:
When D causes the hischayvus of B to A, under what din does D now owe B money?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: voldemort on January 13, 2014, 07:42:26 PM
if anyone does want to pass on his cc's intrest fees without ribis,a heter iska can be drawn up fairly easily  which will remove the problem,it can even work on more than one loan involving the same two people.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zh cohen on January 14, 2014, 11:06:08 AM
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

Please don't PM for details. They won't be answered


I think this thread has gotten a bit off topic.  Isn't there a Halacha thread?

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.0


Or if you ask CV,  http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12784.0

 Maybe someone should open a Ribis thread.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on January 14, 2014, 11:09:02 AM

I think this thread has gotten a bit off topic.  Isn't there a Halacha thread? Maybe someone should open a Ribis thread.

Yes, it should be chopped off into a different thread.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on January 14, 2014, 11:13:11 AM
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?
In terms of ribbis ktzuzah you are probably correct (probably has to do with shlichus la'kum l'chumra questions). But, I think it's pashut you have a problem midrabanan
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: wonderlust on March 04, 2014, 11:24:10 AM
cant the card holder deny the charges? can claim they never ordered it and the merchant will have to deal with the fallout with his suppliers?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SamKey on March 04, 2014, 11:36:18 AM
cant the card holder deny the charges? can claim they never ordered it and the merchant will have to deal with the fallout with his suppliers?
You are responsible for AU
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: wonderlust on March 04, 2014, 12:53:22 PM
but u can say u never made the order (which is true if it wasnt an authorized user
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ushdadude on March 04, 2014, 12:58:15 PM
but u can say u never made the order (which is true if it wasnt an authorized user

Try it
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: wonderlust on March 04, 2014, 01:20:03 PM
hope 2 never be in that situation
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on March 14, 2014, 06:16:03 AM
Found it...

(http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36812.0;attach=9092;image)

I just saw a similar ad in this week's Ami.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Chuck2 on March 25, 2014, 02:49:51 PM
(http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36812.0;attach=9091)Found it...
This looks like the Canadian AMEX cards (35K with refferal bonuses) look at the Smart Chip...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2014, 03:26:09 PM
This looks like the Canadian AMEX cards (35K with refferal bonuses) look at the Smart Chip...
Seen in Montreal...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CS1 on March 25, 2014, 05:01:03 PM
Seen in Montreal...
How is it possible for both Gold and Platinum Amex? (Unless one is personal and one Biz?)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Baruch on March 25, 2014, 11:00:56 PM
At least with Amex stopping churning these idiots putting up the ads and signs will go out of business.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Joe4007 on March 25, 2014, 11:14:08 PM
At least with Amex stopping churning these idiots putting up the ads and signs will go out of business.
They'll just do it with a different bank.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on March 25, 2014, 11:20:32 PM
At least with Amex stopping churning these idiots putting up the ads and signs will go out of business.

No, the contrary. They will be even more motivated to find people with fresh SSNs.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2014, 01:02:35 PM
Soon all banks are going to stop.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Saver2000 on March 27, 2014, 01:12:10 PM
Soon all banks are going to stop.
::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Chuck2 on May 23, 2014, 06:04:14 PM
How is it possible for both Gold and Platinum Amex? (Unless one is personal and one Biz?)
No Not business, the gold and platinum are two different cards
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 27, 2014, 09:45:14 AM
Just saw there's an ad in the last Zman (Sivan) offering $5,000 to open a few credit cards, I'll upload the pic later.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on May 27, 2014, 09:46:17 AM
Just saw there's an ad in the last Zman (Sivan) offering $5,000 to open a few credit cards, I'll upload the pic later.
its been there for months, they have to be making money
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on May 27, 2014, 09:47:27 AM
Just saw there's an ad in the last Zman (Sivan) offering $5,000 to open a few credit cards, I'll upload the pic later.
yup, saw it. Is it only Amex cards or do they open chase cards ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 27, 2014, 10:00:21 AM
yup, saw it. Is it only Amex cards or do they open chase cards ?
Looks like it's only Amex (they have a disclaimer that you can only do it if you haven't had an MR card in the past 12 months... :-\)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on May 27, 2014, 10:04:40 AM
Looks like it's only Amex (they have a disclaimer that you can only do it if you haven't had an MR card in the past 12 months... :-\)
Hasn't that rule changed to forever ? ( I guess they don't either want to deal with chase recon)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on May 27, 2014, 10:06:11 AM
its been there for months, they have to be making money

They are. I just heard of one such person using them. There are gullible people, but I can't really blame the predators because these people aren't smart enough to do it themselves. It's a win-win.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Joe4007 on May 27, 2014, 10:12:30 AM
Hasn't that rule changed to forever ?
Not for business cards.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 27, 2014, 10:16:28 AM
It's a win-win.
Maybe for them, but for us it's a killer
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ysteichman on May 27, 2014, 10:27:23 AM
What exactly is their shtick? I know someone who did it and they asked me if I knew. I thought maybe they were doing regular MS on a crazy scale, but on the CC statements, it shows that they booked plane tickets in the cardholder's name, which the cardholder obviously will not be using. Also, they say not to ever use the cards again after they are done because it will "mess up their computers".
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 27, 2014, 10:51:43 AM
What exactly is their shtick? I know someone who did it and they asked me if I knew. I thought maybe they were doing regular MS on a crazy scale, but on the CC statements, it shows that they booked plane tickets in the cardholder's name, which the cardholder obviously will not be using. Also, they say not to ever use the cards again after they are done because it will "mess up their computers".
WTH :o
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on May 27, 2014, 11:01:57 AM
its been there for months, they have to be making money
Insane money, but really crooked stuff without any disclosure to those they fleece.
Anyone want to make a scan for the ad and upload it here?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on May 27, 2014, 11:07:05 AM
It really makes me mad>:(
We gotta figure out a way to stop this!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on May 27, 2014, 11:07:52 AM
Insane money, but really crooked stuff without any disclosure to those they fleece.
Anyone want to make a scan for the ad and upload it here?

We all know what they do. amexreftic
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 27, 2014, 11:08:44 AM
Isn't opening up a cc in someone else's name identity theft?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Myccrabbi on May 27, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
Isn't opening up a cc in someone else's name identity theft?
absolutely!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on May 27, 2014, 11:13:56 AM
It really makes me mad>:(
We gotta figure out a way to stop this!
Why ? How many of those people would even know how to do it on their own ? & they could close these cards & open new ones in 12 months. Are they doing anything that's messing up people's accounts for life ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on May 27, 2014, 11:17:10 AM
Why ? How many of those people would even know how to do it on their own ? & they could close these cards & open new ones in 12 months. Are they doing anything that's messing up people's accounts for life ?
I heard from one of the guys that he did a big batch one day and every single person got FRd due to the big/suspicious transactions he slammed them all with to get it done ASAP.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on May 27, 2014, 11:34:00 AM
I heard from one of the guys that he did a big batch one day and every single person got FRd due to the big/suspicious transactions he slammed them all with to get it done ASAP.
An Amex FR isn't the end of the world. If the CL is lowered it would probably effect the broker more than the individual.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 27, 2014, 11:40:06 AM
Insane money, but really crooked stuff without any disclosure to those they fleece.
Anyone want to make a scan for the ad and upload it here?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 27, 2014, 11:42:35 AM
Insane money, but really crooked stuff without any disclosure to those they fleece.
Anyone want to make a scan for the ad and upload it here?
That is indeed evil.
But didn't think you had such strong views about refundables...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mocha on May 27, 2014, 11:46:38 AM
What are they opening already in 1 month? A few Amex business and consumer doesn't easily total 5k.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 27, 2014, 11:48:17 AM
150k targeted offers, plus they used to have the referral/affiliate link also...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mocha on May 27, 2014, 11:49:40 AM
150k targeted offers, plus they used to have the referral/affiliate link also...
who the heck has multiple 150k targeted offers?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ad120 on May 28, 2014, 03:03:39 AM
who the heck has multiple 150k targeted offers?
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zh cohen on May 28, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
In the mishpacha there was an advertisement this week that mentioned business cards. They were also offering a $150 for every person you refer.

At the bottom it said that they were looking for people to join their "sales team" with the potential to earn "a few thousand dollars a month"
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on May 28, 2014, 09:59:38 AM
scary - especially tempting if some data entry people in schools or other chessed organizations know people's SS#s and birthdates then some people can open all types of accts for others without their knowledge. i.e. if they have 400 12th graders on file from 3 years ago then by now they are all over 18.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: satturn on May 28, 2014, 10:19:13 AM
scary - especially tempting if some data entry people in schools or other chessed organizations know people's SS#s and birthdates then some people can open all types of accts for others without their knowledge. i.e. if they have 400 12th graders on file from 3 years ago then by now they are all over 18.
if i remember correctly - a few years back it happened in a certain yeshiva, and there was strong reason to say that the person behind it was a (unknown) ddf member. It was on the forums way back when.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: BigDanFan on May 28, 2014, 10:35:24 AM
if i remember correctly - a few years back it happened in a certain yeshiva, and there was strong reason to say that the person behind it was a (unknown) ddf member. It was on the forums way back when.
yes i know of that place, it was smaller in size but now there are tempting flyers and advertisements so the potential now for 500-600 people per school is very big
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on September 24, 2014, 09:26:49 AM
if i remember correctly - a few years back it happened in a certain yeshiva, and there was strong reason to say that the person behind it was a (unknown) ddf member. It was on the forums way back when.
I wouldn't say unknown  :'( unfortunately there are a couple people on the forums involved in this and similar scams, and are slowly killing it for the rest of us.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: zionest on January 13, 2015, 02:51:47 PM
bump  amex closed my amex business platinum this morning after my wife swiped my card in her business last night. any way of having them reopen or have them report it as i closed it? any advise or Can you please direct me to A post that discusses this.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Palm5 on January 13, 2015, 03:28:47 PM
bump  amex closed my amex business platinum this morning after my wife swiped my card in her business last night. any way of having them reopen or have them report it as i closed it? any advise or Can you please direct me to A post that discusses this.

Why would you let her do that 😳
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Nitantnel on January 13, 2015, 04:00:55 PM
Let's be nice to the wives here, they are not chrunable.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: miles on February 08, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
Is it a crime to lend money from a cc ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on February 08, 2015, 10:57:54 AM
Is it a crime to lend money from a cc ?
No
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: miles on February 08, 2015, 11:51:54 AM
No
to lend for a business is the same answer ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on February 08, 2015, 11:54:09 AM
to lend for a business is the same answer ?
Dunno. Can't answer that
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 08, 2015, 11:58:41 AM
to lend for a business is the same answer ?
Don't think it is, as long as you realize that ultimately you are the one responsible for paying the CC company. You are basically lending your own money that you happened to borrow from a CC company...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CS1 on February 08, 2015, 12:14:51 PM
Don't think it is, as long as you realize that ultimately you are the one responsible for paying the CC company. You are basically lending your own money that you happened to borrow from a CC company...
+1
Also, they file everything with your ss# anyway, so it's really actually you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: udip3146 on February 08, 2015, 11:30:31 PM
I wouldn't say unknown  :'( unfortunately there are a couple people on the forums involved in this and similar scams, and are slowly killing it for the rest of us.
Abuse kills all.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: elimmm on September 09, 2015, 05:45:10 PM
anyone heard of guys swiping "friends" cards so that they buy the max number of the new iphone per household/ cc and then re-sell em? i heard this is hot now in crown hts and some other places.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: MosheD on September 09, 2015, 05:55:41 PM
anyone heard of guys swiping "friends" cards so that they buy the max number of the new iphone per household/ cc and then re-sell em? i heard this is hot now in crown hts and some other places.
Discussed on forums previously. Dunno where. Paging TimT
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on September 09, 2015, 06:43:55 PM
Discussed on forums previously. Dunno where. Paging TimT
This is from last year.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=44967.0
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Abet rich on September 09, 2015, 09:30:51 PM
anyone heard of guys swiping "friends" cards so that they buy the max number of the new iphone per household/ cc and then re-sell em? i heard this is hot now in crown hts and some other places.
Theyeshivaworld.com had an article advertising for it
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on September 09, 2015, 09:47:21 PM
Theyeshivaworld.com had an article advertising for it
Link (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/340029/you-can-profit-off-of-the-iphone-craziness.html) to article if anybody is interested.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 06, 2016, 01:25:47 PM
Boom! My friend just got screwed up...tens of thousands down the drain
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 06, 2016, 01:26:19 PM
Details?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Z56 on December 06, 2016, 01:30:37 PM
Boom! My friend just got screwed up...tens of thousands down the drain

Boom!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on December 06, 2016, 01:43:20 PM
Details?
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ez1985 on December 06, 2016, 02:13:47 PM
do tell
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 02:30:11 PM
Boom! My friend just got screwed up...tens of thousands down the drain
Wow wow!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on December 06, 2016, 02:38:47 PM
Boom! My friend just got screwed up...tens of thousands down the drain

Weeps
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 06, 2016, 03:54:13 PM
Don't have full details, but basically that person cashed out money by letting other people use "his card" and they paid him cash, he himself didn't swipe the card, basically whoever gave him cash and used "his" card is now facing disputes on their purchases, I know of a person (not personal) that got thousands locked in his PayPal account because he used "this persons" card on his account and since the charge was disputed as unauthorized, PayPal locked all his funds...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 04:04:34 PM
Don't have full details, but basically that person cashed out money by letting other people use "his card" and they paid him cash, he himself didn't swipe the card, basically whoever gave him cash and used "his" card is now facing disputes on their purchases, I know of a person (not personal) that got thousands locked in his PayPal account because he used "this persons" card on his account and since the charge was disputed as unauthorized, PayPal locked all his funds...
Wow! Know a school that had thousands (over $50,000) locked in with such a story!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 06, 2016, 04:21:01 PM
Don't have full details, but basically that person cashed out money by letting other people use "his card" and they paid him cash, he himself didn't swipe the card, basically whoever gave him cash and used "his" card is now facing disputes on their purchases, I know of a person (not personal) that got thousands locked in his PayPal account because he used "this persons" card on his account and since the charge was disputed as unauthorized, PayPal locked all his funds...
I don't understand. He let person A swipe his card, and that guy gave him cash for the purchase. Who disputed the charge ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 06, 2016, 04:27:14 PM
I don't understand. He let person A swipe his card, and that guy gave him cash for the purchase. Who disputed the charge ?
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 06, 2016, 04:28:08 PM
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account is got frozen...
Wow, that's really messed up.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 06, 2016, 04:30:38 PM
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...
Ah. That's crazy.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 06, 2016, 04:43:00 PM
I think the lesson here is don't be a colossal idiot. Nothing to do with MS or anything, some people just do really stumping things without thinking about the consequences.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 06, 2016, 04:45:56 PM
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...
You should have spelled this out in your initial post, no one understood this situation from your initial post.

So basically Reuven wanted to get some points, so he asked Shimon to swipe for him.

Was Shimon a con man? Or did something happen to shimon that he couldn't payback?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 04:49:10 PM
You should have spelled this out in your initial post, no one understood this situation from your initial post.

So basically Reuven wanted to get some points, so he asked Shimon to swipe for him.

Was Shimon a con man? Or did something happen to shimon that he couldn't payback?
I dont know his story but the story that i know of was very similar. They owed tuition and the school was not willing take another child (a younger child). So they borrowed a credit card from someone and promised to pay the person back.
One month later they did a dispute since he did not pay back and locked up his PP account with over $50,000. The school had just ordered new stuff for school and had a big CC bill himself...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 06, 2016, 05:10:58 PM
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...
Wanna hear something crazy?

Parts of this story sounded strangely familiar for some reason. Turns out I'm Levi......
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 05:18:48 PM
Wanna hear something crazy?

Parts of this story sounded strangely familiar for some reason. Turns out I'm Levi......

Wow
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: A3 on December 06, 2016, 05:19:05 PM
And who is the 'friend'?
Why would Levi risk paying cash for the cc swipe? How much did he earn? It is worth the audit risk?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 06, 2016, 05:20:24 PM
And who is the 'friend'?
Why would Levi risk paying cash for the cc swipe? How much did he earn? It is worth the audit risk?
I'm Levi and I didn't pay anyone cash.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 06, 2016, 05:23:25 PM
I'm Levi and I didn't pay anyone cash.
You gave merchandise ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 06, 2016, 05:24:28 PM
You gave merchandise ?
Was paid for a service.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 06, 2016, 06:31:23 PM
Was paid for a service.
Then the guy who paid you is levy, you're yehuda.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 06, 2016, 06:32:08 PM
Then the guy who paid you is levy, you're yehuda.
No. If I was Yehuda I would have said that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 06, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
I know a guy who just disputed over 40k as unauthorised, wonder if he's related to this story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 06, 2016, 07:03:04 PM
I know a guy who just disputed over 40k as unauthorised, wonder if he's related to this story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shulem92 on December 06, 2016, 07:19:00 PM
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...

Wanna hear something crazy?

Parts of this story sounded strangely familiar for some reason. Turns out I'm Levi......

Then the guy who paid you is levy, you're yehuda.

I know a guy who just disputed over 40k as unauthorised, wonder if he's related to this story.
You guys should have a DO
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 07:20:42 PM
You guys should have a DO
either that or Lo Lo went LuLu
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 06, 2016, 07:31:55 PM
either that or Lo Lo went LuLu
It's not me, if that's what you mean.

And it's unlikely to be related to this story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 06, 2016, 07:38:45 PM
It's not me, if that's what you mean.

And it's unlikely to be related to this story.
Ye but you did quote his post...

Anyway I was just kidding
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 06, 2016, 09:28:23 PM
Ye but you did quote his post...

Anyway I was just kidding
I quoted him on a different point, whatever.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:14:12 AM
Any update to this insanity?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:26:32 AM
Any update to this insanity?
possibly. Who do you think is liable to pay Levi in this case?

Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...





Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:38:47 AM
possibly. Who do you think is liable to pay Levi in this case?
I am totally confused. Is Levi out money (how) or is his PP account just locked?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:39:33 AM
I am totally confused. Is Levi out money (how) or is his PP account just locked?
PP locked. Money that was disputed has been clawed back.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:43:18 AM
PP locked. Money that was disputed has been clawed back.
I would be looking at Shimon then. He is responsible for everyone he deals with and I am responsible for everyone I deal with. SOP!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:44:36 AM
I would be looking at Shimon then. He is responsible for everyone he deals with and I am responsible for everyone I deal with. SOP!
Well in Jewish law Reuven is prob liable to pay Levi now and had no right to initiate that dispute.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:47:30 AM
Well in Jewish law Reuven is prob liable to pay Levi now and had no right to initiate that dispute.
If you ever deal with me we are using common sense not Jewish law.  ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:48:15 AM
If you ever deal with me we are using common sense not Jewish law.  ;)
If you ever deal with me you better run if you screw me and don't stop to ask about law.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:49:22 AM
If you ever deal with me we are using common sense not Jewish law.  ;)
And I can argue common sense either way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:49:52 AM
If you ever deal with me you better run if you screw me and don't stop to ask about law.
Part of common sense.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:50:24 AM
Part of common sense.
Lol.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:50:45 AM
And I can argue common sense either way.
Note to self: No deals with Emkay.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 03:52:36 AM
The death threats are flying early.
Tomorrow is Friday. I did not take it as a death threat but something along the lines of a cattle prod.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 05:25:08 AM
If you ever deal with me we are using common sense not Jewish law.  ;)
Non related hypothetical question. If you owe me $1000, you go to the bank and get 10 crisp $100 bills and pay me. They next day the mint disqualifies all $100 bills. Who owes me that money? If anyone.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 05:52:43 AM
Non related hypothetical question. If you owe me $1000, you go to the bank and get 10 crisp $100 bills and pay me. They next day the mint disqualifies all $100 bills. Who owes me that money? If anyone.
Not me unless they were disqualified before I gave them to you. Again we would use SOP and common sense. I would do whatever I can to try and fix the situation. I would probably accept some of the loss (because I am a nice guy) if we couldn't get it fixed.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 05:54:37 AM
Not me unless they were disqualified before I gave them to you. Again we would use SOP and common sense. I would do whatever I can to try and fix the situation. I would probably accept some of the loss (because I am a nice guy) if we couldn't get it fixed.
So now please explain to me why this case is different. In simple terms please, im not to bright.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:01:26 AM
So now please explain to me why this case is different. In simple terms please, in not to bright.
I guess I am the one who isn't that bright since I see nothing in common.

The first case is this as I se it. A gave B a check. B gave C the check. C gave B money for the check thinking the check came from B. B screwed A. A stopped payment on the check. C got screwed. The honest people (A&C) got screwed and the scammer (B) got the money.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:07:06 AM
I guess I am the one who isn't that bright since I see nothing in common.

The first case is this as I se it. A gave B a check. B gave C the check. C gave B money for the check thinking the check came from B. B screwed A. A stopped payment on the check. C got screwed. The honest people (A&C) got screwed and the scammer (B) got the money.
While this wasn't the case I'll try to explain this one.
What right does A have to screw C just because B screwed him?
B rightfully got the check from A and C rightfully got it from B.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:11:56 AM
While this wasn't the case I'll try to explain this one.
What right does A have to screw C just because B screwed him?
B rightfully got the check from A and C rightfully got it from B.
Remember what I said from the beginning. Pretend I am A. I am dealing with B and C, D, E or whoever else is involved does not matter. Now if B was screwed (this isn't the case) I would help to try and fix the situation.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 06:16:43 AM
Remember what I said from the beginning. Pretend I am A. I am dealing with B and C, D, E or whoever else is involved does not matter. Now if B was screwed (this isn't the case) I would help to try and fix the situation.
If you spend money on your card expecting to get a paycheck to pay it off, and then you get fired, you can't decide not to pay the card just because the payment source you were counting on screwed you up.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:19:48 AM
If you spend money on your card expecting to get a paycheck to pay it off, and then you get fired, you can't decide not to pay the card just because the payment source you were counting on screwed you up.
Except I didn't spend the money. I can't believe what I am hearing. This is deals 101. I guarantee my end and you guarantee your end. What is so hard to understand?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 06:21:57 AM
Except I didn't spend the money. I can't believe what I am hearing. This is deals 101. I guarantee my end and you guarantee your end. What is so hard to understand?
You gave B permission to spend the money. The payment made to C was 100% authorized.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:22:23 AM
Remember what I said from the beginning. Pretend I am A. I am dealing with B and C, D, E or whoever else is involved does not matter. Now if B was screwed (this isn't the case) I would help to try and fix the situation.
As A, you are dealing with B and thats it. You can't take away money from others.
Let's say it was actual cash and not a check/cc that B borrowed and gave to C to pay for a product/service. Can you walk over to C and demand that he give that rightfully earned cash back to you? Or strictly because you have the ability to dispute/shop check all of a sudden its ok?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:28:05 AM
I really don't know how to respond. I can't believe what I am hearing. Is this truly how Jewish law works?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 06:34:53 AM
I really don't know how to respond. I can't believe what I am hearing. Is this truly how Jewish law works?
In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:39:20 AM
I really don't know how to respond. I can't believe what I am hearing. Is this truly how Jewish law works?
A yes or no answer will suffice.


Let's say it was actual cash and not a check/cc that B borrowed and gave to C to pay for a product/service. Can you walk over to C and demand that he give that rightfully earned cash back to you?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:47:10 AM
In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?
You are trying to come up with a situation that justifies what you are saying. Lets stick with the facts. I will make this simple.
A makes B and AU on his CC with the guarantee B will pay all charges. A will benefit form the points earned.
B makes other deals with C.
B never pays A.
A disputes all charges.
A has nothing to do with C. What A does and how it affects C is no concern of A's.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:48:32 AM
A yes or no answer will suffice.
You are trying to come up with a situation that justifies what you are saying. Lets stick with the facts. I will make this simple.
A makes B and AU on his CC with the guarantee B will pay all charges. A will benefit form the points earned.
B makes other deals with C.
B never pays A.
A disputes all charges.
A has nothing to do with C. What A does and how it affects C is no concern of A's.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:53:40 AM
You are trying to come up with a situation that justifies what you are saying. Lets stick with the facts. I will make this simple.
A makes B and AU on his CC with the guarantee B will pay all charges. A will benefit form the points earned.
B makes other deals with C.
B never pays A.
A disputes all charges.
A has nothing to do with C. What A does and how it affects C is no concern of A's.
Its beyond me why you won't answer the question. But let's go on your case, for which reason is he disputing? The charges were 100% legitimate. He gave full permission to B to use his card. Call up amex with that claim and tell me how far you get.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 06:56:37 AM
You are trying to come up with a situation that justifies what you are saying. Lets stick with the facts. I will make this simple.
A makes B and AU on his CC with the guarantee B will pay all charges. A will benefit form the points earned.
B makes other deals with C.
B never pays A.
A disputes all charges.
A has nothing to do with C. What A does and how it affects C is no concern of A's.
Notice that you called B an Authorized user. This is exactly what A authorized B to do. On way grounds exactly is A disputing the charges as unauthorized?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:57:54 AM
Its behind me why you won't answer the question. But let's go on your case, for which reason is he disputing? The charges were 100% legitimate. He gave full permission to B to use his card. Call up amex with that claim and tell me how far you get.
Again you are missing the point. Anything I do with Amex is none of your business. You agreed to pay me for those charges. You did not so my only recourse was to get the charges voided. The same if you paid me for the charges and I never paid Amex. That again is none of your business.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 07:00:15 AM
Again you are missing the point. Anything I do with Amex is none of your business. You agreed to pay me for those charges. You did not so my only recourse was to get the charges voided. The same if you paid me for the charges and I never paid Amex. That again is none of your business.

In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:04:04 AM
I respect both of you but there is no way I would ever do a deal with either one of you (again). How about we wait until Freddie comes online. He seems to understand my way of thinking. I must be missing something.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:06:15 AM
Again you are missing the point. Anything I do with Amex is none of your business. You agreed to pay me for those charges. You did not so my only recourse was to get the charges voided. The same if you paid me for the charges and I never paid Amex. That again is none of your business.
Lol. Are you that hard of hearing that you can't even hear what you're saying yourself?     Like that old analogy of ripping a hole in your cruise ship cabin causing it to sink which is ok since it has nothing to do with the next cabin. But forget about that now. I'm asking you for a huge  favor, can you give me a simple yes or no answer?


Let's say it was actual cash and not a check/cc that B borrowed and gave to C to pay for a product/service. Can you walk over to C and demand that he give that rightfully earned cash back to you?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:09:52 AM
I respect both of you but there is no way I would ever do a deal with either one of you (again). How about we wait until Freddie comes online. He seems to understand my way of thinking. I must be missing something.
For the record (And @searchguy can vouch for that) I did take the loss and sent the money back to A. But I didn't do it because I had to, I did it because I felt bad for him and didn't want to cause him to lose.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:12:40 AM
I'm asking you for a huge  favor, can you give me a simple yes or no answer?
We are on this road because I answered a hypothetical question in good faith and you tried and turn that around as a gothca question.

You lay out the facts of this situation and I will answer all questions related to it. How's that for an offer?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:16:53 AM


We are on this road because I answered a hypothetical question in good faith and you tried and turn that around as a gothca question.
Isn't that how debates work?


Again you are missing the point. Anything I do with Amex is none of your business. You agreed to pay me for those charges. You did not so my only recourse was to get the charges voided. The same if you paid me for the charges and I never paid Amex. That again is none of your business.

B didnt pay you so go get it back from him and only him. Its none of my business if you lie to amex to recoup different money to cover that loss unless that lie takes it away from me- an unrelated 3rd party.  Either way I agree, this isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:20:12 AM
Isn't that how debates work?
So this is about who can win a debate?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:21:51 AM
So this is about who can win a debate?
No. But many times it takes walking people in a direction they don't want to take to realize their reasoning is flawed, one sided, and incorrect.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:24:47 AM
No. But many times it takes walking people in a direction they don't want to take to realize their reasoning is flawed, one sided, and incorrect.
If my reasoning is flawed then so is thousands of others that I have done deals with over the past 40 years. Anyone who feels my reasoning is flawed please post so I can put you on the list of never to do deals with.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:31:06 AM
If my reasoning is flawed then so is thousands of others that I have done deals with over the past 40 years. Anyone who feels my reasoning is flawed please post so I can put you on the list of never to do deals with.
What makes you say their reasoning is flawed? Has this come up before?
I'm merely looking for a reasoning that works across the board. You failed to explain to me why it works different when paid with cash than with the safety net of the CC dispute.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:50:57 AM
What makes you say their reasoning is flawed? Has this come up before?
Numerous times deals have not gone as planned. SOP and common sense has prevailed in all of them. A & B guarantee their ends. The side deals they make are their responsibilities. How much simpler does it get?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:53:50 AM
Numerous times deals have not gone as planned. SOP and common sense has prevailed in all of them. A & B guarantee their ends. The side deals they make are their responsibilities. How much simpler does it get?
As i said, im not so intelligent. Just trying to understand.
Now that B has not fulfilled his guarantee, what makes you allowed to collect from a 3rd party? Whether that is amex or someone else.  Filing a dispute is not collecting from B.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 08:05:35 AM
As i said, im not so intelligent. Just trying to understand.
Now that B has not fulfilled his guarantee, what makes you allowed to collect from a 3rd party? Whether that is amex or someone else.  Filing a dispute is not collecting from B.
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:08:38 AM
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.
There's where you go wrong. It doesn't get you anything back from B who is the only person you can collect from.
I understand it's quite a drastic case but it's like saying B didnt pay me back so I'll walk into 7-11 and take a bag of chips instead.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:11:30 AM



Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

My exact particulars didnt make a difference as we were arguing in the case the way you saw it.
Either way my exact case was that A gave B a credit card to swipe so A can get the rewards. B then went ahead and paid me (C) for an unrelated service that was supplied previously. A couple months later A still didn't get reimbursed so he disputed all charges.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 08:11:56 AM
There's where you go wrong. It doesn't get you anything back from B who is the only person you can collect from.
I understand it's quite a drastic case but it's like saying B didnt pay me back so I'll walk into 7-11 and take a bag of chips instead.
B charged 10k and didn't pay me. I am out 10k. I dispute the charges, get my 10k back and at least I am even.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:12:58 AM
B charged 10k and didn't pay me. I am out 10k. I dispute the charges, get my 10k back and at least I am even.
You didnt get YOUR 10K back. You got mine.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 08:13:21 AM
B made the charges. Disputing them gets me my money back from the charges B didn't pay me for. I understand there is a 3rd party involved but that is B's responsibility not mine. My deal with B did not cover any side deals he made. Not sure how much simpler I can make it.

Made I am not understanding your situation but I suspect for privacy reasons you are not laying out all the facts.

ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
Can you answer this question?
In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:14:17 AM




ETA: Maybe you are looking at it from a Jewish law point of view and that is not the same as a non-Jewish way of looking at it?
Could be honesty is naturally ingrained in me and its affecting my judgement .
Either way I spoke to 2 lawyers, one not Jewish and they both agreed with me.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: incendia on December 08, 2016, 08:14:35 AM
I think there is something we all agree on... B is a scumbag.

When you make someone an AU on your account the CC company specifically tells you that you are responsible for any and all charges on the AU's card.
As long as C used SOP and common sense when dealing with B he shouldn't lose out.

A dealt with B and A has to go after B for the cash. A is now dragging C into his dispute with A and thats not right.

Merchants are only responsible for the transaction happening infront of them.

C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.

A made a loan to B and has to collect from B
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:18:02 AM



C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.
Although he do has to know and might be responsible for not doing due diligence. In this case A DID authorize the charges.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 08:48:47 AM
I think there is something we all agree on... B is a scumbag.

When you make someone an AU on your account the CC company specifically tells you that you are responsible for any and all charges on the AU's card.
As long as C used SOP and common sense when dealing with B he shouldn't lose out.

A dealt with B and A has to go after B for the cash. A is now dragging C into his dispute with A and thats not right.

Merchants are only responsible for the transaction happening infront of them.

C cant know that the CC really belongs to A and that A isnt really authorizing these charges.

A made a loan to B and has to collect from B

Is that the case here?
Because if B is an AU, C can show that he provided a service to B and win the dispute.

But if B is not an AU - even though B was "authorized" by A -  C is taking unnecessary risk by providing a service to someone who is using a credit card in A's name.

Maybe A is morally wrong for disputing the charges, but C should know the risks he is taking when swiping a card that isn't in B's name.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on December 08, 2016, 08:50:56 AM
Sounds like JTZ is saying that A can chargeback b/c he is justified in hurting B who commited the fraud.
However, Emkay is saying that A is actually hurting C who doesn't deserve to be hurt by A. B isn't being hurt by this chargeback (at least not until Emkay gets to him). Ideally, A should 'get back' at B via a different method that wouldn't hurt C.

Am I following this correctly?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:55:45 AM



However, Emkay is saying that A is actually hurting C who doesn't deserve to be hurt by A. B isn't being hurt by this chargeback (at least not until Emkay gets to him). Ideally, A should 'get back' at B via a different method that wouldn't hurt C.

Am I following this correctly?
Yes. He legally, morally, and ethically has no right to dispute.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 08:56:51 AM
Is that the case here?
Because if B is an AU, C can show that he provided a service to B and win the dispute.

But if B is not an AU - even though B was "authorized" by A -  C is taking unnecessary risk by providing a service to someone who is using a credit card in A's name.

Maybe A is morally wrong for disputing the charges, but C should know the risks he is taking when swiping a card that isn't in B's name.
Its not about what can or can't be done. Its about what is allowed to be done.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Drago on December 08, 2016, 08:59:57 AM
Yes. He legally, morally, and ethically has no right to dispute.

I'm curious.
In a case where B steals a CC from A and uses it at a store, does the CC issuer do a chargeback at the store? I'd imagine not.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:01:07 AM
I'm curious.
In a case where B steals a CC from A and uses it at a store, does the CC issuer do a chargeback at the store? I'd imagine not.
Depends on their mood but many times yes, Google has many data points.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 09:19:29 AM
I'm curious.
In a case where B steals a CC from A and uses it at a store, does the CC issuer do a chargeback at the store? I'd imagine not.

I'd imagine yes.
The store should verify that the name matches the card.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:22:10 AM
I'd imagine yes.
The store should verify that the name matches the card.
Correct. What about an online purchase?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 09:23:47 AM
I'd imagine yes.
The store should verify that the name matches the card.
IME it really depends what kind of transaction.
Depends on their mood but many times yes, Google has many data points.
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 09:24:25 AM
Correct. What about an online purchase?
Most big online retailers have fraud insurance which covers for these kind of things.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:25:09 AM
Most big online retailers have fraud insurance which covers for these kind of things.
And those that don't?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 09:25:50 AM
Correct. What about an online purchase?

The shipping address should match the billing address.

(Unrelated: Someone used my Kohls account and credit card to order bedsheets to my house.
I have no idea what the scam is, or how some thief in Ohio (Thanks Dan!) is gonna get the sheets.
But I can understand why the charge went through.)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 09:26:20 AM
Sounds like JTZ is saying that A can chargeback b/c he is justified in hurting B who commited the fraud.
However, Emkay is saying that A is actually hurting C who doesn't deserve to be hurt by A. B isn't being hurt by this chargeback (at least not until Emkay gets to him). Ideally, A should 'get back' at B via a different method that wouldn't hurt C.

Am I following this correctly?
For me yes. I would add that B>C is a side deal that I have nothing to do with. If what I do inadvertently hurts C you can't hold me responsible for that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:26:46 AM


The shipping address should match the billing address.


only zip needs to match usually.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 09:27:52 AM
And those that don't?

There's risk detection programs and fraud insurance.
You can get the risk detection program to tell you if you should ship the order.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:27:59 AM
For me yes. I would add that B>C is a side deal that I have nothing to do with. If what I do inadvertently hurts C you can't hold me responsible for that.
Leaving all other parties out of it, what will be the reason you will tell Amex that you are disputing for?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 09:39:30 AM
Leaving all other parties out of it, what will the reason you will tell Amex that you are disputing for?
I have no idea.
Let me clarify something. If A is disputing knowing it is not going to work and will only hurt C then it is wrong for him to do it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 09:41:16 AM
Can you answer this question?
Yes I can but won't until you ask in a non-condescending way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 09:45:50 AM
I have no idea.
Let me clarify something. If A is disputing knowing it is not going to work and will only hurt C then it is wrong for him to do it.
Of course it will work for him. He will get money to compensate for his loss.
So in summary
"A" has no legal basis to dispute.
It is against the CC terms and he will need to lie to process a dispute.
"B" does not have any money taken away from him.
"C" loses money that was rightfully earned and was authorised by AH when charged.

And yet "A" is still in the right?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 09:46:43 AM
Leaving all other parties out of it, what will the reason you will tell Amex that you are disputing for?
+1
If A authorized B to use the card, A is responsible for anything that B does with it.

I know of a case where A threatened B that if he doesn't pay he will dispute the charges.

B told A that if he disputes the charges he will show American Express the emails authorizing him to use the card.

B was obviously petrified of his relationship with C.



Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 08, 2016, 10:48:44 AM
If there is no 'c' involved,
Does a still not have a right to dispute?
Remember, using a card to charge for cash is against the T&C..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 10:58:29 AM
If there is no 'c' involved,
Does a still not have a right to dispute?
Remember, using a card to charge for cash is against the T&C..
You mean by charging it at Mr.B's business?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 08, 2016, 10:59:30 AM
You mean by charging it at Mr.B's business?
yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:02:30 AM
If there is no 'c' involved,
Does a still not have a right to dispute?
Remember, using a card to charge for cash is against the T&C..
Noone swiped for cash. If there is no "C" and the person losing from the dispute is "B" and its within the terms then its a sep case
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 08, 2016, 11:11:01 AM
Noone swiped for cash. If there is no "C" and the person losing from the dispute is "B" and its within the terms then its a sep case
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 08, 2016, 11:11:21 AM
According to Halacha when B uses A's credit card it goes from the bank's account to A's account, then from A to B, basically A borrowed money from B and not from the bank, if B gives his credit card to C, that means that B borrowed the money from A and handed over to C, at this point the money is in C's authority, A is getting screwed by B so B now owes A money, but here is the point C got his money rightfully from B because the money was in B's authority and had the Halachic right to give it to C, at this point A cannot go to C and tell him this money B gave you he borrowed from me and he didn't pay me so you have to give me my money, C didn't receive this money with any term that would connect him to anything, the money was 100% B's at the time C got it, C had a full Kinyan of the money because it was in his account already.
A cannot come to C and ask for money... That's my thought about this issue, I didn't learn it, but this is how I understand this situation

I think in either case a din torah is way to handle it
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 08, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?
Yes, as expalined above, in jewish terms it's called Kinyan, so whoever holds the money he owns it and no one is allowed to take it away from him
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 11:15:11 AM
I initially agreed with JTZ here but I've been convinced by some very well formulated arguments here. The argument is between A and B, A has no right to dispute the charge to C
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
According to Halacha when B uses A's credit card it goes from the bank's account to A's account, then from A to B, basically A borrowed money from B and not from the bank, if B gives his credit card to C, that means that B borrowed the money from A and handed over to C, at this point the money is in C's authority, A is getting screwed by B so B now owes A money, but here is the point C got his money rightfully from B because the money was in B's authority and had the Halachic right to give it to C, at this point A cannot go to C and tell him this money B gave you he borrowed from me and he didn't pay me so you have to give me my money, C didn't receive this money with any term that would connect him to anything, the money was 100% B's at the time C got it, C had a full Kinyan of the money because it was in his account already.
A cannot come to C and ask for money... That's my thought about this issue, I didn't learn it, but this is how I understand this situation

I think in either case a din torah is way to handle it
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:18:04 AM
this discussion/concept is called swiping for cash..
But anyway

If a gave B permission to swipe (to himself) and B decided, I have a bill by C let me pay him from A card instead of losing the fees..
Now A losses out the opportunity to dispute?

"A" gave "B" permission use his card for whatever the heck he wanted. To buy sushi, pay for a massage, gamble in Vegas.... This isn't swiping for cash.

A doesnt lose the privilege of disputing, if the sushi was spoiled, dispute it. If the massage didn't  end like he wanted, dispute it. If the casino was rigged, dispute it. But he sure as hell loses the right to dispute just because "B" can't pay the bill.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:18:13 AM
I initially agreed with JTZ here but I've been convinced by some very well formulated arguments here. The argument is between A and B, A has no right to dispute the charge to C
This is why I asked for the facts to the case. Did A know C was part of the deal?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:20:20 AM
But he sure as hell loses the right to dispute just because he can't pay the bill.
That is why he is disputing or because B didn't pay for the charges he made and promise to pay for.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:21:02 AM
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
I'm open to you FULLY explaining it from a legal or ethically logical perspective instead of just saying that I'm not understanding.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:21:42 AM
That is why he is disputing or because B didn't pay for the charges he made and promise to pay for.
What I meant. You think he can dispute that?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:22:20 AM
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

Jewish law is much more complex, there are hundreds of books debating what and how Kinyan works

(No offense @searchguy)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:23:47 AM
This is why I asked for the facts to the case. Did A know C was part of the deal?
Specifically "C"? No idea. But he knew " B" was paying bills and purchasing items from 3rd parties.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:25:14 AM
I'm open to you FULLY explaining it from a legal or ethically logical perspective instead of just saying that I'm not understanding.
I explained it many times. The deal is between A&B. B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:25:28 AM
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

(No offense @searchguy)
I'm not taking sides but would you like a source so you can mind what you say before you end up eating your socks?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:26:33 AM
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

Jewish law is much more complex, there are hundreds of books debating what and how Kinyan works

(No offense @searchguy)

I'm not taking sides but would you like a source so you can mind what you say before you end up eating your socks?
@searchguy is the one that needs to bring a source
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:27:30 AM
Specifically "C"? No idea. But he knew " B" was paying bills and purchasing items from 3rd parties.
So this is an A/B deal then
B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:27:57 AM
I explained it many times. The deal is between A&B. B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.
Are you not listening? He can only recoup the loss from "B", do you argue on that? Can he recoup it from Walmart electronics aisle when noone is looking? If you don't answer the targeted questions I ask I can't figure out where I believe you're confusing or fooling yourself.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:28:22 AM
It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******
Don't shoot the Goy.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:31:23 AM
Are you not listening? He can only recoup the loss from "B", do you argue on that? Can he recoup it from Walmart electronics aisle when noone is looking? If you don't answer the targeted questions I ask I can't figure out where I believe you're confusing or fooling yourself.
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:32:06 AM
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
Give me one minute.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:34:03 AM
Give me one minute.
Do you still have my card info?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:34:03 AM
Don't shoot the Goy.
@searchguy is Jewish, i swear
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:34:57 AM
@searchguy is Jewish, i swear
...but you quoted me.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:35:27 AM
Do you still have my card info?  :)
Lol. I just called Amex, as I suspected they said no,Absolutely not. Cannot dispute a charge that you authorized.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:36:26 AM
Lol. I just called Amex, as I suspected they said no,Absolutely not. Cannot dispute a charge that you authorized.
DROPR! Lol
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:36:47 AM
Lol. I just called Amex, as I suspected they said no,Absolutely not. Cannot dispute a charge that you authorized.
You have no business calling Amex. This is the part you are failing to understand.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:37:53 AM
You have no business calling Amex. This is the part you are failing to understand.
So tell me which angle your coming from If not legal or ethical.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:40:42 AM
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)

It's not Jewish law, it's utter b*******

Jewish law is much more complex, there are hundreds of books debating what and how Kinyan works

(No offense @searchguy)

Don't shoot the Goy.

...but you quoted me.
It was a response
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:42:06 AM
So tell me which angle your coming from If not legal or ethical.
You trying to be funny? What part of this deal is legal or ethical?

Don't have full details, but basically that person cashed out money by letting other people use "his card" and they paid him cash, he himself didn't swipe the card, basically whoever gave him cash and used "his" card is now facing disputes on their purchases, I know of a person (not personal) that got thousands locked in his PayPal account because he used "this persons" card on his account and since the charge was disputed as unauthorized, PayPal locked all his funds...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 08, 2016, 11:46:17 AM
Thank you for the Jewish law perspective. Now I understand why some can't understand what I am saying.  :)
It's not just halacha it's common sense.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:47:59 AM
It's not just halacha it's common sense.
Any religious laws and common sense are not compatible.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 08, 2016, 11:48:44 AM
@searchguy is Jewish, i swear
לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת שֵׁם ה' אֱלֹהֶיךָ לַשָּׁוְא, כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה ה' אֵת אֲשֶׁר יִשָּׂא אֶת שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 08, 2016, 11:49:13 AM
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
Why would you be allowed to dispute it? You allowed me to use your card and now you want to take the money from the person I used it by? Come to me to take the money not the person I spent it by.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hershelsdeals on December 08, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת שֵׁם ה' אֱלֹהֶיךָ לַשָּׁוְא, כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה ה' אֵת אֲשֶׁר יִשָּׂא אֶת שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא.
This deserves its own thread
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:51:33 AM


You trying to be funny? What part of this deal is legal or ethical?

Don't have full details, but basically that person cashed out money by letting other people use "his card" and they paid him cash, he himself didn't swipe the card, basically whoever gave him cash and used "his" card is now facing disputes on their purchases, I know of a person (not personal) that got thousands locked in his PayPal account because he used "this persons" card on his account and since the charge was disputed as unauthorized, PayPal locked all his funds...

Did you not follow the discussion? ? That wasn't the case. Either way he still wouldn't be allowed to in this case. We aren't discussing the legal aspects to that point rather if that dispute was allowed. Even in a case where everything is illegal doesnt make the last illegal act magically okay.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 11:52:08 AM
I explained it many times. The deal is between A&B. B is trying to scam A so A has the right to do whatever needs to be done to recoup the loss.

That's the part I can't agree with. He has the right to do plenty to B to recoup his loss, but no one ever has a right to do "whatever needs to be done" as a blanket exemption just because he was scammed.

And as others have said, what was the reason he gave the cc company for disputing the charge? Since the service was provided and the card was authorized at the time he must have lied to successfully dispute. Why does he have a right to lie to the cc on a dispute to get back funds from a third party just because B scammed him?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:52:54 AM
Why would you be allowed to dispute it? You allowed me to use your card and now you want to take the money from the person I used it by? Come to me to take the money not the person I spent it by.
Lets just say Amex allows the dispute. Am I within my rights to dispute it since you tried to scam me?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 11:55:01 AM
And as others have said, what was the reason he gave the cc company for disputing the charge? Since the service was provided and the card was authorized at the time he must have lied to successfully dispute. Why does he have a right to lie to the cc on a dispute to get back funds from a third party just because B scammed him?
You are all missing the point. The deal is between A & B. B has no right to say a dispute is not right. B is the scammer.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 08, 2016, 11:57:04 AM
Lets just say Amex allows the dispute. Am I within my rights to dispute it since you tried to scam me?
No
Do whatever you need to do to get your money back directly from B. By disputing it you're taking money from C who received it rightfully.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 11:57:54 AM
You are all missing the point. The deal is between A & B. B has no right to say a dispute is not right. B is the scammer.

B is not the one saying the dispute is not right. C is the one saying that. He is a third party who is left holding the bag despite having processed an authorized transaction and providing the service.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:58:00 AM
You are all missing the point. The deal is between A & B. B has no right to say a dispute is not right. B is the scammer.
Noone said "B" has a right.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 11:58:46 AM
Lets just say Amex allows the dispute. Am I within my rights to dispute it since you tried to scam me?
If they allowed it they would cover it instead of taking it from "C".
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 08, 2016, 11:58:50 AM
You are all missing the point. The deal is between A & B. B has no right to say a dispute is not right. B is the scammer.
You seem to be the only one missing the point
Title: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 08, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
I'm not going to take sides here, I just want to point out that the halachos governing this kind of thing (CCs and such) aren't so simple and not everybody agrees about who's money or is and who is liable if things go wrong. There's a reason we have a בת דין  to go to with these things, which knows the intricacies of the laws and can decide on the correct course of action.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:04:33 PM
Noone said "B" has a right.
Thank you!
The deal between B/C is a side deal I have no knowledge of or responsibility for. C as no standing in the deal between A/B. SOP and common sense.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 12:06:15 PM
Thank you!
The deal between B/C is a side deal I have no knowledge of or responsibility for. C as no standing in the deal between A/B. SOP and common sense.

Since C is not part of the deal and has no standing, A has no right to dispute the charge made to C
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:06:31 PM
I'm not going to take sides here, I just want to point out that the halachos governing this kind of thing (CCs and such) aren't so simple and not everybody agrees about who's money or is and who is liable if things go wrong. There's a reason we have a בת דין  to go to with these things, which knows the intricacies of the laws and can decide on the correct course of action.
According to Jewish law I have no input what so ever. Just don't think that is the way it works outside of Jewish law.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:07:05 PM
Since C is not part of the deal and has no standing, A has no right to dispute the charge made to C
I have no knowledge C was involved.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 08, 2016, 12:08:55 PM
According to Jewish law I have no input what so ever. Just don't think that is the way it works outside of Jewish law.
I'm not purporting that it works the same way, my point was directed at those who were claiming to know how a Jewish court would rule.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:11:47 PM
You seem to be the only one missing the point
Coming from you now I know I am right.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:15:03 PM
I have no knowledge C was involved.
Who do you think charged the card? A snowy owl? Dont purposely pretend to be stupid.
According to Jewish law I have no input what so ever. Just don't think that is the way it works outside of Jewish law.
I already spoke to 2 lawyers and Amex. Tell me where your backing is.

Thank you!
The deal between B/C is a side deal I have no knowledge of or responsibility for. C as no standing in the deal between A/B. SOP and common sense.
Correct "C" is not standing in the way. As you said a million times, the deal is between A/B and only A/B. And disputing it is not between A/B. I'm not sure if you're trolling or honestly have a hard time grasping this concept but I'll try to type up a longer detailed explanation later.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:18:14 PM
I'm not going to take sides here, I just want to point out that the halachos governing this kind of thing (CCs and such) aren't so simple and not everybody agrees about who's money or is and who is liable if things go wrong. There's a reason we have a בת דין  to go to with these things, which knows the intricacies of the laws and can decide on the correct course of action.
Do your rounds. Find me someone that argues.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
Tell me where your backing is.
Thousands of deals I have done over the years. Or ask members here if I haven't been more than fair with them.

Maybe we are talking about two different deals. That is why I asked you to post the facts. I might have the facts wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 08, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Do your rounds. Find me someone that argues.
Argues about what? I wasn't saying anything about this case in particular.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:22:40 PM


Thousands of deals I have done over the years. Or ask members here if I haven't been more than fair with them.

Maybe we are talking about two different deals. That is why I asked you to post the facts. I might have the facts wrong.

That doesnt prove anything is right.
I didnt say you are unfair. I don't think you ever had a case like this with a member. I said my details but even the case your were arguing was wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:25:42 PM
I didnt say you are unfair.
You sure think my position here is unfair.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:27:34 PM
You sure think my position here is unfair.
Yes. But I have no knowledge of you actually doing thievery like that.
I think your fine and upstanding and that your arguments are based on ignorance or a mental block and not corruption.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:31:27 PM
But I have no knowledge of you actually doing thievery like that.
I get scammed by B and try to be made whole and that is thievery. WOW!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:32:03 PM
I get scammed by B and try to be made whole and that is thievery. WOW!
Yup. If you take money from C.
Also see edit.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:39:19 PM
Yup. If you take money from C.
Also see edit.
I seen your edit.  :)
You keep trying to make this about C. This is a deal between A/B. C, D, E or anyone else is between B and them. This is how it works in all the deals I have been involved in. I understand you don't agree but don't try and tell it didn't work this way in all the deals I have done.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:43:23 PM
I seen your edit.  :)
You keep trying to make this about C. This is a deal between A/B. C, D, E or anyone else is between B and them. This is how it works in all the deals I have been involved in. I understand you don't agree but don't try and tell it didn't work this way in all the deals I have done.
We are going in circles. If this is about A and B then why can A take money from a 3rd party? Take it only from B. But I said that a dozen times and you didn't understand so I don't expect that to change now.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on December 08, 2016, 12:44:40 PM
And I always thought ABC was easy as 123.
Go figure
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 12:46:23 PM
We are going in circles. If this is about A and B then why can A take money from a 3rd party? Take it only from B. But I said that a dozen times and you didn't understand so I don't expect that to change now.
If this is between A/B then you can't bring in a third person? Hello is anybody home?  :)

Do you think it is possible you are biased in this case?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 12:51:35 PM


If this is between A/B then you can't bring in a third person? Hello is anybody home?
You can bring in a 3rd unrelated person to cover your cost ? Can you shoplift from Target to make up for the loss?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 01:05:06 PM
I let you use my card to make a 10k purchase with a promise to pay it back. After you make the purchase you refuse to pay me. Can I dispute the charge to recoup my 10k?
If I swindle you and then go deposit the money in a bank account, you can't go hold up the bank to recoup your loss. You would be what would be described as a bank robber. The judge wouldn't be impressed by your unrelated loss due to the swindler.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 01:09:12 PM
If this is between A/B then you can't bring in a third person? Hello is anybody home?  :)

Do you think it is possible you are biased in this case?

You are having an intense mental block here. I am not biased to either side, and initially was on your side.

The case was between A and B. B screwed A. B is the scumbag. A now has to recoup his losses. So A screwed C. That's fair to you?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 08, 2016, 01:13:39 PM
If this is between A/B then you can't bring in a third person? Hello is anybody home?  :)

Do you think it is possible you are biased in this case?
Do realize that Emkay is claiming to be C in this scenario? Which why is why he's asking if A can go to a third party to recoup his loss. Since as far as A is concerned C and Target owe him the money equally, and by A (falsely) disputing the charge (and recouping the money from B) C (or in the scenario Target) took a loss. Does that make sense to you?

If I give you my CC with express permission to spend $10k at Target as long as you pay me back the $10k in a week, and you go ahead and spend the money and don't pay me back, can I dispute the charge and have Target incur a $10k loss???
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:21:06 PM
The case was between A and B. B screwed A. B is the scumbag. A now has to recoup his losses. So A screwed C. That's fair to you?
B screwed C not me. There is no C to me. What deals B made on the side is his responsibility not mine. Common sense. What if C then made a deal with D, D>E and so on. This is insane.

Please if you think I am going to be responsible for your side deals DON"T EVER DEAL WITH ME!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: A3 on December 08, 2016, 01:24:08 PM
Any transaction that B made with the card should be voidable. As there was never any good faith on Bs part.

Take it to bais din and supply the results please
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
B screwed C not me. There is no C to me. What deals B made on the side is his responsibility not mine. Common sense. What if C then made a deal with D, D>E and so on. This is insane.

Please if you think I am going to be responsible for your side deals DON"T EVER DEAL WITH ME!!!

There is no C to you. fine. Where are you recouping your losses from?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:28:24 PM
There is no C to you. fine. Where are you recouping your losses from?
From the CC dispute for the charges B made and did not pay me for.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 01:30:15 PM
From the CC dispute for the charges B made and did not pay me for.

So you are making CC pay you for what B screwed you?

You authorized B to use your card. the charge was valid. On what basis are you disputing?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 01:31:37 PM
From the CC dispute for the charges B made and did not pay me for.

In your utopian legal system, if someone doesn't pay his credit card bill the credit card company can claw back the charges from the merchants the charges were incurred by?


This whole thing is very strange to me. You are the last member on the forum I'd expect this from.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 01:32:46 PM
From the CC dispute for the charges B made and did not pay me for.

You authorized B to make the charges.
If you tell amex you authorized B  there will be no dispute against C.

After seeing so many people explain it to you very clearly, I see don't have a mental block, it's more of a mental barrier!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 08, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
From the CC dispute for the charges B made and did not pay me for.
Since when can you dispute an authorized CC charge with the reason being "the guy I authorized to use my CC didn't pay me back"?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:36:22 PM
So you are making CC pay you for what B screwed you?

You authorized B to use your card. the charge was valid. On what basis are you disputing?
1 - I would not dispute the charge
2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.
3 - Unless someone lays out the facts of this case ethical and legal went out the window at step one.
4 - B is the scammer. Focus on B and stop making A out to be the scammer.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:37:18 PM
Since when can you dispute an authorized CC charge with the reason being "the guy I authorized to use my CC didn't pay me back"?
I never said it would work.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:39:48 PM
You authorized B to make the charges.
If you tell amex you authorized B  there will be no dispute against C.

After seeing so many people explain it to you very clearly, I see don't have a mental block, it's more of a mental barrier!
Who in their right mind would ever tell Amex that?

That is like telling Amex. I am going to add an AU for this scam I have going on. Will that be OK?
How about I am going to add 99 fake AU's to scam you on your own offers?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 01:40:04 PM
B screwed C not me. There is no C to me. What deals B made on the side is his responsibility not mine. Common sense. What if C then made a deal with D, D>E and so on. This is insane.

Please if you think I am going to be responsible for your side deals DON"T EVER DEAL WITH ME!!!
You haven't answered under what reason you are filing your dispute.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 01:40:15 PM


2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.
If you agree he has no legal or moral right, then what right does he have?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 08, 2016, 01:40:50 PM
This
I never said it would work.
controdicts this
1 - I would not dispute the charge
2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.
3 - Unless someone lays out the facts of this case ethical and legal went out the window at step one.
4 - B is the scammer. Focus on B and stop making A out to be the scammer.
If it wouldn't work then it means he doesn't have the right to do it.

Nobody's disagreeing with you that B is the scammer and thief in this situation, neither is anybody disagreeing with you that A isn't the scammer here. The disagreement is, that the fact that A was scammed by B doesn't mean he can go ahead and "pay it forward" by disputing (wrongfully, as you agreed) the charge and leaving C hanging. A should use other means of recouping his money without screwing over C...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 01:42:14 PM
1 - I would not dispute the charge
2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.
3 - Unless someone lays out the facts of this case ethical and legal went out the window at step one.
4 - B is the scammer. Focus on B and stop making A out to be the scammer.

1) Very good. So you agree with everyone.
2) I'm not sure how you are defining "right" if not legal or ethically.
3) The facts have been laid out clearly. I was initially on your side, but switched once it was clarified.
4) Good. So we all agree. B is the scammer. We know that. The focus on C only happened because he is on the thread. He is involved whether you or A likes it or not.

It's really not that difficult.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:44:28 PM
If you agree he has no legal or moral right, then what right does he have?
The same right members here have to add 99 AU's. What A does with the CC company is his business. What members do here with AU's is their business.
Look at it this way. The deal works and everyone gets paid except A does not pay the CC company. Does B or C have anything to say about it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:45:38 PM
4) Good. So we all agree. B is the scammer. We know that. The focus on C only happened because he is on the thread. He is involved whether you or A likes it or not.

It's really not that difficult.
...and there lies the problem. Objectivity just went out the window.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 01:46:27 PM


Look at it this way. The deal works and everyone gets paid except A does not pay the CC company. Does B or C have anything to say about it?
Aha. That's the difference. Everybody is not getting paid. The money you are getting back you are taking straight from C's pocket.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:47:40 PM
1) Very good. So you agree with everyone.
Wrong. I wouldn't do it because that is my choice. I don't have a problem if the person in A's position disputed it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:49:21 PM
Aha. That's the difference. Everybody is not getting paid. The money you are getting back you are taking straight from C's pocket.
You missed the point again. What I do with Amex is none of anyone's business. It is not part of the deal. It is unfortunate there will be collateral damage to someone unknown to me.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 01:51:31 PM


How about we wait until Freddie comes online. He seems to understand my way of thinking. I must be missing something.
Is he purposely avoiding this thread?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 01:53:46 PM
Is he purposely avoiding this thread?

No he is purposely avoiding stupidity
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:54:05 PM
How about this. I am going to assume I am not understanding the deal fully. If someone wants to lay it out I will be more than happy to comment on it further. Until that happens I am waiting for my translator.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:54:25 PM
No he is purposely avoiding stupidity
That's a real nice comment.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 01:54:42 PM
No he is purposely avoiding stupidity
That never stopped him yet.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 01:57:30 PM
...and there lies the problem. Objectivity just went out the window.

Wow, so I am biased to some dude I never met more than you - another guy I've never met?

Wrong. I wouldn't do it because that is my choice. I don't have a problem if the person in A's position disputed it.
The same right members here have to add 99 AU's. What A does with the CC company is his business. What members do here with AU's is their business.
Look at it this way. The deal works and everyone gets paid except A does not pay the CC company. Does B or C have anything to say about it?

So, forget C.
A has the right to dispute with the CC - In other words, A disputing the charges, and keeping the money that was paid for a legitimate charge?

Can we agree that that is theft from the CC company, if not C?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 01:59:11 PM
Wow, so I am biased to some dude I never met more than you - another guy I've never met?
Are you forgetting something about the two of us?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 08, 2016, 02:01:05 PM
Let's make this personal.

Your wife uses your credit card to buy clothing from the local Mom and Pop shop- final sale.
You don't like what she bought, you file a dispute with your credit card?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
Are you forgetting something about the two of us?  :)

Pretty sure I'm not?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 08, 2016, 02:08:56 PM
If this is between A/B then you can't bring in a third person? Hello is anybody home?  :)

Do you think it is possible you are biased in this case?
How can you blame it on biased when everyone seems to think like him besides for you?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 02:10:03 PM
How can you blame it on biased when everyone seems to think like him besides for you?
ROFLMAO!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 02:14:00 PM
Are you forgetting something about the two of us?  :)
Seriously, what am I forgetting?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 02:18:23 PM
Seriously, what am I forgetting?
If we were both standing on the corner and you wanted to know were the nearest Shul was which one of us would you ask?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 02:20:08 PM
If we were both standing on the corner and you wanted to know were the nearest Shul was which one of us would you ask?  :)
A or C? Either one.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 02:21:16 PM
A or C? Either one.
That makes me B?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 02:22:15 PM
That makes me B?
You're not part of this story AFAIK, so nobody can be biased against your side.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 08, 2016, 02:47:10 PM
so there is a major difference if A gave B his card to use on general transactions or if A gave be his card to B to swipe x amount and B decided to use it to pay his bills

if A gives B his card with the agreement that the 'merchandise' (payment in this situation) will arrive in 45 days and it doesn't,
doesnt A have a right to dispute? even if he authorized the charge?
i'm not sure why it's A's business that B used the card by C..
unless B borrowed the money to use at C then its a different story

very possible A only gave his card cuz he knew that if B doesnt pay he'll dispute, not taking into consideration that C is involved

and this is not saying that 'since A is in need to pay his bill someone (C) has to pay for it,
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 02:49:40 PM
If we were both standing on the corner and you wanted to know were the nearest Shul was which one of us would you ask?  :)

Whoa. So the reason *everyone* else on this thread disagrees with you is because you aren't Jewish? Wow.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 02:51:25 PM
Heres a basic rundown of the case for those getting googly eyed,

Reuven, Shimon and Levi (hereinafter refered to as A,B, ad C) are all humans. A knows B while neither A nor B know C.
A wants points but has no spend. B has spend but wants no points. A tells B he can go trigger happy and spend whatever he wants and pay him back cash.
C has a business and provides services in exchange for money. B uses those services and pays for said services with the card from A that he was fully authorized to use by A himself.  A was fully aware of said purchase and had no issue with it. A couple months later A still had not received reimbursement from B. Desperate to recoup his losses he disputed all charges B made.

Following are some points taken out of this case. @JTZ Please let me know which numbers are false. Thanks

1) A authorized B to use his card for charges
2) Every charge B made was 100% authorized by A
3) C received the money from A with consent from A and B
4) According to the banks, You cannot dispute a charge that you authorized.
5) A disputed a charge that he authorized
6) Disputing all charges will not recoup any money from B
7) In order for A to successfully dispute he must lie and/or commit fraud
8 ) If all above transactions had been with cash A would not be able to knock on the door of C to ask for that cash back
9) The only way he can recoup the money is via dispute which must be done non truthfully
10) A dispute will 100% take the money away from C
11) A may not hold unrelated 3rd parties accountable for his loss due to B not paying back
12) B is the only one in the world that owes A money
13) Neither the bank nor C should be held accountable for these charges that were authorized
14) Even if 2 dozen individuals unethically and illegally fleece you of money that does not make it right to act unethically or illegally yourself.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JoeyShmoe on December 08, 2016, 03:22:04 PM
Is it possible for C to go and dispute the dispute? If C can prove to the CC company that the merchandise was sold or service was rendered, then the CC company should either side with the merchant (I was actually under the impression that the CC company reaches out to the merchant when there's a dispute, am I wrong?) or give a reason why they won't, in which case somebody will be proven a liar, no? I'm not well versed with the intricacies of CCs, so if this thought is out of line please ignore it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 03:56:42 PM
Is it possible for C to go and dispute the dispute? If C can prove to the CC company that the merchandise was sold or service was rendered, then the CC company should either side with the merchant (I was actually under the impression that the CC company reaches out to the merchant when there's a dispute, am I wrong?) or give a reason why they won't, in which case somebody will be proven a liar, no? I'm not well versed with the intricacies of CCs, so if this thought is out of line please ignore it.
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 04:07:45 PM
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.

A has no right to dispute the charge for two reasons.
1) He is essentially taking the money from C, not from B.

2) He is lying to the cc company, being that he did authorize the charge.

Don't see any reason why someone would think otherwise.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dawie on December 08, 2016, 04:16:34 PM
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.

A has no right to dispute the charge for two reasons.
1) He is essentially taking the money from C, not from B.

2) He is lying to the cc company, being that he did authorize the charge.

Don't see any reason why someone would think otherwise.
Dayan Roth in lakewood said often in his Choshen Mishpot shiurim that any charge back is stealing (he was talking about purchases)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 04:17:49 PM
Dayan Roth in lakewood said often in his Choshen Mishpot shiurim that any charge back is stealing (he was talking about purchases)
I don't understand. How can every single chargeback be stealing ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Cheesecake on December 08, 2016, 04:17:50 PM
Emkay is clearly right here.

A cc is telling the cc company that the transaction was not authorized, or not fulfilled properly.

Neither is true here.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dawie on December 08, 2016, 04:23:19 PM
I don't understand. How can every single chargeback be stealing ?
because you are causing money to be removed from someones account that doesn;t want it to be removed?
If you have a gripe about a product go to beis din and mediate it
In the case of the last 10 pages, A would probably be allowed to do something like that to B possibly because we's just getting back what is rightfully his (Avid inish Dina l'nafshei)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 04:26:28 PM


because you are causing money to be removed from someones account that doesn;t want it to be removed?
If you have a gripe about a product go to beis din and mediate it
In the case of the last 10 pages, A would probably be allowed to do something like that to B possibly because we's just getting back what is rightfully his (Avid inish Dina l'nafshei)
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dawie on December 08, 2016, 04:27:58 PM
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?
yes
i said possibly
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
Did you hear this from him himself ?!
And who told you that a person has a right to be toifes bzman hazeh, especially without a beis din, bec. Of aved inish Dina l'nafshei ?


Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Cheesecake on December 08, 2016, 04:29:31 PM
JTZ: Two points. Please tell me if you disagree with either.

1) The nature of a CC dispute is that the cardholder (A) is telling the CC company that the transaction in which the merchant (C) charged money to the credit card for a product or service was not legitimate.

2) In this case, the charge was legitimate.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 04:37:34 PM
You guys all have wonderful points but your missing the point. I'm not sure which point your missing and I don't think anyone does but JTZ
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 04:48:16 PM
Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dawie on December 08, 2016, 04:50:41 PM
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?
interesting Svara
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 04:55:21 PM
Who gave you the right to steal the extra $15 charge back fee?

Can i smash your window to get back my money?
When you pay a merchant for an item, there is an inherent agreement that your paying the seller X amount of money, to get said product.
It's the sellers responsibility to provide the item whole, and intact.
If that item comes damaged, then your not liable to pay, and if the seller doesn't want to accept a refund, then he's not living up to his side of the deal.
As long as the buyer isn't lying, then he can dispute the charge.
I have gotten this psak from more then one Rav, so I guess if Dayan Roth said no then YMMV
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 05:01:18 PM
When you pay a merchant for an item, there is an inherent agreement that your paying the seller X amount of money, to get said product.
It's the sellers responsibility to provide the item whole, and intact.
If that item comes damaged, then your not liable to pay, and if the seller doesn't want to accept a refund, then he's not living up to his side of the deal.
As long as the buyer isn't lying, then he can dispute the charge.
I have gotten this psak from more then one Rav, so I guess if Dayan Roth said no then YMMV
halivai people would think the way you are.

I am talking about where he felt that he deserved a refund and decided that if you don't want to work with me i will dispute. Such a case belongs by a rav or B"D
In such a case you would be stealing the extra $15 even if at the end of the day he would have to give back some
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 05:03:08 PM
When a merchant agrees to accept cc, I'd assume that part of the deal is his acceptance that a customer has a right to disputes, and the cc company acts as a mediator between them and the customer ?

The problem is that line is waaaay too broad
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 05:12:51 PM
The problem is that line is waaaay too broad
I'm not a merchant so I don't know. There aren't T&C in regards to the agreement between merchant and the cc company ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 05:19:55 PM
I'm not a merchant so I don't know. There aren't T&C in regards to the agreement between merchant and the cc company ?
Yes but the customer can claim whatever they want and it's on the merchant to prove otherwise
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 05:22:07 PM
Yes but the customer can claim whatever they want and it's on the merchant to prove otherwise
But if the customer is actually correct, then the merchant inherently agrees to whatever chargeback will cost him ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cozmohoot on December 08, 2016, 05:23:48 PM
What is SOP that was referred to earlier?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 05:27:35 PM
But if the customer is actually correct, then the merchant inherently agrees to whatever chargeback will cost him ?
Correct but part of the terms are that the customer attempted to contact the merchant and 90% of the time people lie...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 05:44:09 PM
Whoa. So the reason *everyone* else on this thread disagrees with you is because you aren't Jewish? Wow.
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
If it makes a difference, I asked my rav today, and he gave me the same answer that Emkay got.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on December 08, 2016, 05:44:16 PM
Correct but part of the terms are that the customer attempted to contact the merchant and 90% of the time people lie...
I'm from the other 10%
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 05:47:21 PM
You all agree that B screwed A, correct?
How about we just let A settle it this way?
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....
:)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
Didn't you agree that

2 - A has a right to dispute the charge. Is it ethical or legal, no.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 05:55:00 PM
The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....

In that case, the after story becomes very interesting. Fill us in, please!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 05:59:39 PM
Didn't you agree that
...and what does that have to do with the point I made? If I say something is illegal and or unethical and your rav disagrees with me are you going to believe me?. Let me answer that for you. Not a chance in h***!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:00:11 PM
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:
If it simply was a case of halacha there is zero chance everyone would agree. Every 3 people would have twice as many opinions. Its evidently something else.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 06:00:28 PM
halivai people would think the way you are.
I'm from the other 10%
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 06:02:15 PM
...and what does that have to do with the point I made? If I say something is illegal and or unethical and your rav disagrees with me are you going to believe me?. Let me answer that for you. Not a chance in h***!!!
You are saying we all disagree with you and have a different mindset because we are Jewish. Maybe it's just the fact that it's illegal and unethical (and you are personally screwing over an innocent individual).
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:04:05 PM
You are saying we all disagree with you and have a different mindset because we are Jewish. Maybe it's just the fact that it's illegal or unethical.
How about you answer a question for a change? Is this deal being discussed 100% legal and ethical?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 06:18:48 PM
Again you missed the point.  :)
You all follow different (insert your own word) than me. I would expect you all come to the same conclusion because:

Except I wasn't referring to Jewish law.

You, of all people, have seen how argumentative we get when it comes to anything close to Jewish law or traditions. That there is such strong consensus in this case shows its an objective conclusion.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:22:32 PM
How about you answer a question for a change? Is this deal being discussed 100% legal and ethical?
Can someone check on DS for me to see if he is OK. I would hate to think he is afraid to answer the question.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:27:28 PM
You, of all people, have seen how argumentative we get when it comes to anything close to Jewish law or traditions. That there is such strong consensus in this case shows its an objective conclusion.
If I said Jesus is the son of G-d you would all agree I was wrong. Would this be based of your objectivity or Judaism. So my point is a strong consensus does not automatically mean it is objective.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
How about you answer a question for a change? Is this deal being discussed 100% legal and ethical?
Objection. See fact #14




14) Even if 2 dozen individuals unethically and illegally fleece you of money that does not make it any more right to act unethically or illegally yourself.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 08, 2016, 06:31:38 PM
If I said Jesus is the son of G-d you would all agree I was wrong. Would this be based of your objectivity or Judaism. So my point is a strong consensus does not automatically mean it is objective.

And if I was speaking about cream sandwiches, and you told me the Browns will win the Super Bowl, we could still agree that cholent is better with meat.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:33:34 PM
Objection. See fact #14
Objection duly noted. Can you please check on DS for me and make sure he is OK? I would like an answer to my question.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:34:36 PM
And if I was speaking about cream sandwiches, and you told me the Browns will win the Super Bowl, we could still agree that cholent is better with meat.
...but what about lasagna?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 06:35:34 PM
...but what about lasagna?
Whats the issue never had lasagna with meat?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:37:04 PM
Whats the issue never had lasagna with meat?
Some believe it should be made with meat.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Sport on December 08, 2016, 06:41:40 PM
What if A gave B a check with the understanding that B would give A cash and thay B can use the checl to make purchases.  B then used that check to pay C. Subsequently B doesnt give the cash to A. Can A put a stop on the check ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 06:48:29 PM
What if A gave B a check with the understanding that B would give A cash and thay B can use the checl to make purchases.  B then used that check to pay C. Subsequently B doesnt give the cash to A. Can A put a stop on the check ?
Why in the world?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Sport on December 08, 2016, 06:54:04 PM
Why in the world?
The agreement between A and B was that B can use As check. Its still As money going into Cs account. Does A have to sit idly by while getting taken advantage of?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:56:14 PM
What if A gave B a check with the understanding that B would give A cash and thay B can use the checl to make purchases.  B then used that check to pay C. Subsequently B doesnt give the cash to A. Can A put a stop on the check ?
Of course. For the 100th time the deal is between A/B. SOP and common sense for the 100th time.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 06:57:07 PM
The agreement between A and B was that B can use As check. Its still As money going into Cs account. Does A have to sit idly by while getting taken advantage of?
Only if he is a complete fool.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Sport on December 08, 2016, 06:57:54 PM
Of course. For the 100th time the deal is between A/B. SOP and common sense for the 100th time.  :)
Right you would obviously feel this way. I'm wondering if this case would be diffrent than the cc for the others here.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Sport on December 08, 2016, 07:02:55 PM
Only if he is a complete fool.
I havent thought about it thoroughly enough to have a fully formulated opinion but I'm inclined to agree with you in this case.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:13:19 PM
Of course. For the 100th time the deal is between A/B. SOP and common sense for the 100th time.  :)
Do you  mind going back to that list of 14 statements I posted and telling me which ones are false according to you? I assure you it won't take too long.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:24:02 PM
Do you  mind going back to that list of 14 statements I posted and telling me which ones are false according to you? I assure you it won't take too long.
Am I correct in assuming A does not know what dealings is going on between B/C or even that C is involved?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 08, 2016, 07:25:37 PM
Am I correct in assuming A does not know what dealings is going on between B/C or even that C is involved?
He knows precisely what charges B made including that B was going to and did charge by C. Read that post.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:30:04 PM
He knows precisely what charges B made including that B was going to and did charge by C. Read that post.
Now this is different than the original story. That is why I wanted the facts. This now sounds like a three way deal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 07:30:44 PM
The agreement between A and B was that B can use As check. Its still As money going into Cs account. Does A have to sit idly by while getting taken advantage of?
dont give the check to him in the first place
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:33:54 PM
dont give the check to him in the first place
He already did. The question is can he stop payment. Please say no.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on December 08, 2016, 07:34:37 PM
He already did. The question is can he stop payment. Please say no.  :)
No
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:40:08 PM
No
If this is a serious answer then I understand the problem.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Can someone check on DS for me to see if he is OK. I would hate to think he is afraid to answer the question.
He is uninvolved in this particular story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on December 08, 2016, 07:55:50 PM
Wow did I miss something here. No way I can figure this story out at this point. It looks more like it belongs in Yevamos than on DDF.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 07:57:17 PM
He is uninvolved in this particular story.
That hasn't stop you up to this point, why now?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 08:03:03 PM
That hasn't stop you up to this point, why now?
Because I didn't know the answer, as you were asking for details of a case I don't know.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 08, 2016, 08:05:55 PM
Because I didn't know the answer, as you were asking for details of a case I don't know.
Here are the details: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg1616400#msg1616400
Is this deal 100% legal and ethical?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: David Smith on December 08, 2016, 08:06:44 PM
Here are the details: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg1616400#msg1616400
Is this deal 100% legal and ethical?
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on December 08, 2016, 08:08:00 PM
Here are the details: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg1616400#msg1616400
Is this deal 100% legal and ethical?
Stupid or poorly thought out, yes. Legal and ethical, also yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on December 08, 2016, 10:23:43 PM
I respect both of you but there is no way I would ever do a deal with either one of you (again). How about we wait until Freddie comes online. He seems to understand my way of thinking. I must be missing something.

I'm just catching up on this. Hold on.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on December 08, 2016, 11:03:32 PM
I'm just catching up on this. Hold on.

Now we just need jsk....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on December 08, 2016, 11:24:43 PM
And I always thought ABC was easy as 123.
Go figure
Are you familiar with the famous Crown Heights song Oholei Torah Chai?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 08, 2016, 11:38:23 PM
Congrats! This thread just doubled its posts in 24 hours!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on December 08, 2016, 11:44:14 PM
Okay, I am aware of the basics of what went on here the past few days. So what am I supposed to say? Who I think is right? I have no idea. I don't know Choshen Mishpat. I'd ask a rav.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 08, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, though I do agree with Emkay for the most part.
A might be able to make the case that he only authorized B to make the charges with the assumption that he would pay him back. Or at the very least have every intention of paying back.
Being that B charged the card with (seemingly) no intention to pay back it can be considered an unauthorized use of the card and therefore make him able to recoup his losses from C.
Just a thought...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 08, 2016, 11:53:13 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, though I do agree with Emkay for the most part.
A might be able to make the case that he only authorized B to make the charges with the assumption that he would pay him back. Or at the very least have every intention of paying back.
Being that B charged the card with (seemingly) no intention to pay back it can be considered an unauthorized use of the card and therefore make him able to recoup his losses from C.
Just a thought...
Take it like C is holding cash, how can he take this cash out of him?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 08, 2016, 11:56:32 PM
Take it like C is holding cash, how can he take this cash out of him?
If said cash was stolen from A would be an example of a case in which he would be within his rights to take this cash out of him
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 09, 2016, 12:01:41 AM
If said cash was stolen from A would be an example of a case in which he would be within his rights to take this cash out of him
If I steal cash from you and go and pay off my credit card bill, you have the right tof go to chase and say hey the money Searchguy just gave you is really mine? No! You call police on the thief and Chase keeps the money
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on December 09, 2016, 12:02:37 AM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, though I do agree with Emkay for the most part.
A might be able to make the case that he only authorized B to make the charges with the assumption that he would pay him back. Or at the very least have every intention of paying back.
Being that B charged the card with (seemingly) no intention to pay back it can be considered an unauthorized use of the card and therefore make him able to recoup his losses from C.
Just a thought...
If A gave his wallet full of cash to B to hold for a week.
B returned the wallet empty. (And meanwhile used the $1,000 bill that was in the wallet to pay C, a sum that B rightfully owed C).
A spots the $1,000 bill that was in the wallet in C's possession.
Can A rightfully grab it from C?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on December 09, 2016, 12:02:45 AM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, though I do agree with Emkay for the most part.
A might be able to make the case that he only authorized B to make the charges with the assumption that he would pay him back. Or at the very least have every intention of paying back.
Being that B charged the card with (seemingly) no intention to pay back it can be considered an unauthorized use of the card and therefore make him able to recoup his losses from C.
Just a thought...
In this case every single billing dispute could be filed as authorized.

"I only authorized the merchant to charge my card in exchange for a red scarf not a blue one."
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on December 09, 2016, 12:03:45 AM
This thread reminds me of the old joke. What's the difference between a shlemiel and a shlimazil?

A shlemiel is the guy who spills the soup at the fancy party. A shlimazil is the one that the soup gets spilled on. ...and a nudnik is the one who asks what kind of soup it was.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 09, 2016, 12:09:02 AM
If I steal cash from you and go and pay off my credit card bill, you have the right tof go to chase and say hey the money Searchguy just gave you is really mine? No! You call police on the thief and Chase keeps the money
of course I can! It's my money.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 09, 2016, 12:10:46 AM
If A gave his wallet full of cash to B to hold for a week.
B returned the wallet empty. (And meanwhile used the $1,000 bill that was in the wallet to pay C, a sum that B rightfully owed C).
A spots the $1,000 bill that was in the wallet in C's possession.
Can A rightfully grab it from C?
Yes why not? It's his money...
B cannot transfer ownership of my money whether he owes money to someone or not
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Zkpncs48 on December 09, 2016, 12:12:59 AM
In this case every single billing dispute could be filed as authorized.

"I only authorized the merchant to charge my card in exchange for a red scarf not a blue one."
If you actually thought you were buying a red scarf, that should be a legitimate claim. No?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 09, 2016, 12:13:41 AM
of course I can! It's my money.
good morning to reality
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on December 09, 2016, 12:15:16 AM
Let me play devil's (don't take this personally @jtz) advocate for a second:

If A gave B fake currency and then B paid C with said fake currency. When C tries to deposit it in the bank, it is discovered to be fake. C loses, as he credited B's account for the payment. B never paid A back, but A doesn't care, as the currency he gave B was fake.

So while B thought that he screwed A, essentially he screwed C. Now C has a legitimate claim against B, or against A? I would say he only has a claim against B.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: SearchGuy on December 09, 2016, 12:16:53 AM
Let me play devil's (don't take this personally @jtz) advocate for a second:

If A gave B fake currency and then B paid C with said fake currency. When C tries to deposit it in the bank, it is discovered to be fake. C loses, as he credited B's account for the payment. B never paid A back, but A doesn't care, as the currency he gave B was fake.

So while B thought that he screwed A, essentially he screwed C. Now C has a legitimate claim against B, or against A? I would say he only has a claim against B.
A totally different situation... OMG this deserves a new thread
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 01:30:32 AM
Now this is different than the original story. That is why I wanted the facts. This now sounds like a three way deal.
No its not. I reiterated this many times. I said he does not know C yet authorized and was aware of every swipe. Don't make yourself sound sillier by claiming the story now changed.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on December 09, 2016, 01:33:19 AM
No its not. I reiterated this many times. I said he does not know C yet authorized and was aware of every swipe. Don't make yourself sound sillier by claiming the story now changed.

The question is what vengeance hath thou wrought upon A for disputing the charges?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 01:37:25 AM
The question is what vengeance hath thou wrought upon A for disputing the charges?
Absolutely none. While I vehemently disagree with what he did and technically could have fought it and won, I understand why he did it and felt slightly bad for his situation. I gave him back the money and will attempt to extricate the money from B.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: username on December 09, 2016, 01:38:34 AM
Welcome to friday. Now this thread will really take off..especially appropriate for this week, were we read about the birth of Ruvain, Shimon, and Levi.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Freddie on December 09, 2016, 01:40:20 AM
Absolutely none. While I vehemently disagree with what he did and technically could have fought it and won, I understand why he did it and felt slightly bad for his situation. I gave him back the money and will attempt to extricate the money from B.

So what does this mean?

The after story doesn't matter as much. Nobody screws with me and gets away with it....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 01:42:53 AM
So what does this mean?
B is screwing with me currently.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: username on December 09, 2016, 01:43:41 AM
Mr. B needs to watch out, as Emkay will get even with him.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 01:45:35 AM
No its not. I reiterated this many times. I said he does not know C yet authorized and was aware of every swipe. Don't make yourself sound sillier by claiming the story now changed.
I asked many times for you to spell out the facts. Final you spell out the facts and it was different than the original story as I seen it. I said from the beginning this is an A/B deal and C doesn't matter. Now it is an A/B/C deal (three way) and C does matter. I have been called stupid, silly and a few other names. Have a nice day!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 01:46:17 AM
So what does this mean?
Talk is tough.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Cheesecake on December 09, 2016, 01:48:03 AM
I asked many times for you to spell out the facts. Final you spell out the facts and it was different than the original story as I seen it. I said from the beginning this is an A/B deal and C doesn't matter. Now it is an A/B/C deal (three way) and C does matter. I have been called stupid, silly and a few other names. Have a nice day!!!
Why does it matter if A knows C? He knows there is a C, so who cares who he is?

You didn't answer my straightforward question upthread. I repeat:

JTZ: Two points. Please tell me if you disagree with either.

1) The nature of a CC dispute is that the cardholder (A) is telling the CC company that the transaction in which the merchant (C) charged money to the credit card for a product or service was not legitimate.

2) In this case, the charge was legitimate.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 01:48:59 AM


I asked many times for you to spell out the facts. Final you spell out the facts and it was different than the original story as I seen it. I said from the beginning this is an A/B deal and C doesn't matter. Now it is an A/B/C deal (three way) and C does matter. I have been called stupid, silly and a few other names. Have a nice day!!!

Lol. Please explain how I changed the story. As I said numerous times before I fully laid it out I was arguing in the case that was currently on the table. I said a million times he authorized the charges, what did I change now, and what did everyone else understand prior that you didn't?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 01:51:04 AM
Talk is tough.  :)
I said much earlier in the thread that I was asking in what was right or wrong but not taking action on him.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 01:57:59 AM

Lol. Please explain how I changed the story. As I said numerous times before I fully laid it out I was arguing in the case that was currently on the table. I said a million times he authorized the charges, what did I change now, and what did everyone else understand prior that you didn't?
Here is my original quote from how I understood the story. Not once did you lay out the facts until way later. If you would have laid them out when I asked this all would have been avoided.

I would be looking at Shimon then. He is responsible for everyone he deals with and I am responsible for everyone I deal with. SOP!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:00:56 AM
Why does it matter if A knows C? He knows there is a C, so who cares who he is?

You didn't answer my straightforward question upthread. I repeat:

JTZ: Two points. Please tell me if you disagree with either.

1) The nature of a CC dispute is that the cardholder (A) is telling the CC company that the transaction in which the merchant (C) charged money to the credit card for a product or service was not legitimate.

2) In this case, the charge was legitimate.
1 - agree
2 - I need to know the exact nature of the charges.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:01:09 AM
Here is my original quote from how I understood the story. Not once did you lay out the facts until way later. If you would have laid them out when I asked this all would have been avoided.

I would be looking at Shimon then. He is responsible for everyone he deals with and I am responsible for everyone I deal with. SOP!
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. As long as you see the light I don't care if the admission is via a Trump method.
While the facts have not changed at all, and neither has who is responsible, you even once I laid out more clearly what happened you still argued tooth and nail.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Cheesecake on December 09, 2016, 02:03:19 AM
1 - agree
2 - I need to know the exact nature of the charges.
I am assuming it was for a service properly rendered. Why would you need more detail than that?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:04:08 AM
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. As long as you see the light I don't care if the admission is via a Trump method.
While the facts have not changed at all, and neither has who is responsible, you even once I laid out more clearly what happened you still argued tooth and nail.
If you don't understand when I make a deal with you I don't give a rats *ss what side deals you make. Any actions I take that affect your side deals I don't give a rats *ss. If don't understand this basic principal you should stop doing deals.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:05:51 AM
I am assuming it was for a service properly rendered. Why would you need more detail than that?
Because I am not assuming anything. What if there was no real service involved. What if was just a purchase to make it look that way?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:12:11 AM
I am assuming it was for a service properly rendered.
Don't assume. Is this the way it happened?
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse,
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:13:30 AM
If you don't understand when I make a deal with you I don't give a rats *ss what side deals you make. Any actions I take that affect your side deals I don't give a rats *ss. If don't understand this basic principal you should stop doing deals.
I'm starting to think this gender neutral thing is real, you've been skirting the issues at hand like a female.
Every single pointed, targeted question of mine has been sidestepped by you like they were roadmines.( they very well may have caused your basis to be blown up)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:15:51 AM
Don't assume. Is this the way it happened?
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse,
For someone who keeps on insisting that its A/B and C has nothing to do with anything, you don't get to determine if B/C was legit. There must be a blanket conclusion for that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:18:39 AM
For someone who keeps on insisting that its A/B and C has nothing to do with anything, you don't get to determine if B/C was legit. There must be a blanket conclusion for that.
This is now an A/B/C deal as you laid out the facts. Please tell us if this was a real purchase or one to make it look that way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:20:42 AM
I'm starting to think this gender neutral thing is real, you've been skirting the issues at hand like a female.
You personal attacks are picking up. Real nice.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 09, 2016, 02:20:53 AM
I asked many times for you to spell out the facts. Final you spell out the facts and it was different than the original story as I seen it. I said from the beginning this is an A/B deal and C doesn't matter. Now it is an A/B/C deal (three way) and C does matter. I have been called stupid, silly and a few other names. Have a nice day!!!

I think everyone here (besides you) realized that C was getting screwed by A at least 2-3 (50 post) pages ago.
Also you kept calling out DS for not answering your questions but I saw quite a few inconvenient posts aimed at you that you ignored until you were confronted a few times.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shulem92 on December 09, 2016, 02:21:09 AM
Don't assume. Is this the way it happened?
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse,
While I don't agree with @JTZ's argument, I do see why he thought the way he did
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse, Levi wasn't aware that it is really Reuven's card and that he may face any sort of risk he went and used the card at PayPal, end of the story, Shimon didn't pay Reuven, Reuven disputed the PayPal charge, Levi's PayPal account got frozen...

Because I am not assuming anything. What if there was no real service involved. What if was just a purchase to make it look that way?


While the facts have not changed at all, and neither has who is responsible, you even once I laid out more clearly what happened you still argued tooth and nail.

And @Emkay may have not changed the facts, but they definitely did change since OP. OP clearly said that Levi gave Shimon back cash
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:21:32 AM
This is now an A/B/C deal as you laid out the facts. Please tell us if this was a real purchase or one to make it look that way.
As I said since the very beginning and haven't changed once.
1) this was a 100% legit and legal transaction.
2) A doesnt know C personally yet approved to swipe.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:22:59 AM
I think everyone here (besides you) realized that C was getting screwed by A at least 2-3 (50 post) pages ago.
Were did I say this? I said it was an A/B deal and c was no concern of A's.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:23:13 AM
While I don't agree with @JTZ's argument, I do see why he thought the way he did

And @Emkay may have not changed the facts, but they definitely did change since OP. OP clearly said that Levi gave Shimon back cash
@ SG post was corrected shortly after and was clarified before me asking the question that set this off.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on December 09, 2016, 02:23:17 AM
While I don't agree with @JTZ's argument, I do see why he thought the way he did

And @Emkay may have not changed the facts, but they definitely did change since OP. OP clearly said that Levi gave Shimon back cash

The facts changed about 300 posts ago and were reiterated ad nauseum.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:23:53 AM
As I said since the very beginning and haven't changed once.
1) this was a 100% legit and legal transaction.
2) A doesnt know C personally yet approved to swipe.
Did you give cash back for the purchase?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:23:57 AM
You personal attacks are picking up. Real nice.
If I put an emoji in that text is it then OK?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shulem92 on December 09, 2016, 02:24:35 AM
@ SG post was corrected shortly after and was clarified before me asking the question that set this off.

The facts changed about 300 posts ago and were reiterated ad nauseum.
I know. I know. But OP's post still says that Levi was giving Shimon money. #JustSaying
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:24:53 AM
Did you give cash back for the purchase?
No. It was simply a  legitimate service delivered and then paid. End of story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:29:50 AM
No. It was simply a  legitimate service delivered and then paid. End of story.
If it was legitimate then you should have no problem saying what it was.
So the original story that says you gave cash to B is wrong?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:34:32 AM
If it was legitimate then you should have no problem saying what it was.
So the original story that says you gave cash to B is wrong?
It is wrong. And that was said dozens of times including very shortly after his original post. But please don't try to make that be a difference as you scream till you were blue that C makes no difference at all. So it doesn't matter legit or now.
I run a prostitution ring and he was a client.   Just because it was legit doesn't mean it isn't private.
Either way in case it really makes a difference I'll PM you the exact charge.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 02:36:49 AM
There is a major difference if it was a 3 way deal, or a 2&2
The difference is,
I know someone, who's doing the same thing (I hope he doesn't get messed over) B needs money and he asked A if he could charge his card and pay back in 45 days (b4 the closing day) as far as A is concerned B is swiping it in his Own business, in order to pay the bills that needs to be paid,
A Authorized the charge as long as he gets the 'Goods'  that he was promised which in this case is money when his bill is due
Now if B decides to go use as credit card in a third party  location that charge was not necessarily authorized as a third person charged but authorized as B charge
 And since it was authorized as a  B charge,  as far as A  is concerned he is disputing a charge from B

And even if A knows that the charge came up from a different merchant, and approved that charge, it was likely with the understanding that it's part of B's businesses..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:38:54 AM



A Authorized the charge as long as he gets the 'Goods'  that he was promised which in this case is money when his bill is due
If only life worked this way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:41:29 AM
There is a major difference if it was a 3 way deal, or a 2&2
The difference is,
I know someone, who's doing the same thing (I hope he doesn't get messed over) B needs money and he asked A if he could charge his card and pay back in 45 days (b4 the closing day) as far as A is concerned B is swiping it in his Own business, in order to pay the bills that needs to be paid,
A Authorized the charge as long as he gets the 'Goods'  that he was promised which in this case is money when his bill is due
Now if bY decides to go use as credit card in a third party  location that charge was not necessarily authorized as a third person charged but authorized as B charge
 And since it was authorized as a  B charge,  as far as A  is concerned he is disputing a charge from B
Thank you! If someone didn't understand I considered this an A/B deal then they must be from another planet. Not until all the facts were laid out clearly did I say this was an A/B/C deal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 02:42:34 AM
If only life worked this way.
it most definitely does, if you pay for goods or services, and you don't receive it, you most definitely can dispute, as you didn't get what you paid for (might be an argument though)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:43:02 AM
Thank you! If someone didn't understand I considered this an A/B then they must be from another planet. Not until all the facts were laid out clearly did I say this was an A/B/C deal.
Now can you please clearly explain to me why you assumed this to be an A/B case and why that now changed, and why it makes a difference?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:44:23 AM
it most definitely does, if you pay for goods or services, and you don't receive it, you most definitely can dispute, as you didn't get what you paid for (might be an argument though)
Simple question. If you call up Amex and tell them your reason for disputing, will they agree?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:46:59 AM
Either way in case it really makes a difference I'll PM you the exact charge.
The charge was legit. How did PP get involved? He paid for the service via PP? How much was the charge?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:47:48 AM
The charge was legit. How did PP get involved? He paid for the service via PP? How much was the charge?
Yes. Paid via PayPal. 3K
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 02:48:37 AM
Simple question. If you call up Amex and tell them your reason for disputing, will they agree?
in this case (swiping for cash) no they will terminate their relationship with you
 But in most situations yes I think
 If you tell them that you bought something and it never arrived and the merchant doesn't want to help you out then yes you will most probably win a dispute
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:49:13 AM
Simple question. If you call up Amex and tell them your reason for disputing, will they agree?
Of course not. See how simple that was. Now my turn.
If A called up Amex and explained this whole deal to them as the reason why he wanted to add an AU would they let him?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:50:30 AM
Of course not. See how simple that was. Now my turn.
If A called up Amex and explained this whole deal to them as the reason why he wanted to add an AU would they let him?
Yes. 100%. Without a doubt.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 02:50:39 AM
If A called up Amex and explained this whole deal to them as the reason why he wanted to add an AU would they let him?
as I said, no they will shut A  down :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shulem92 on December 09, 2016, 02:50:42 AM


tens of thousands



3K

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:51:40 AM


There is more at stake when you get suspended besides the dispute amount.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shulem92 on December 09, 2016, 02:52:01 AM
There is more at stake when you get suspended besides the dispute amount.
Gotcha
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
There is more at stake when you get suspended besides the dispute amount.
A is out tens of thousands. What am I missing?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 02:53:41 AM
Yes. 100%. Without a doubt.
I know someone who lost amex, cuz he told them the 'truth' of the charge,
Hoping that if he's honest they will let him off with a warning, didn't work as planned
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 02:54:09 AM
A is out tens of thousands. What am I missing?
Based on the last 1000 posts, a whole lot
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 02:56:38 AM
Based on the last 1000 posts, a whole lot
Now can you explain how A is out tens of thousands when the disputed charge is 3k?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 03:00:33 AM
Now can you explain how A is out tens of thousands when the disputed charge is 3k?
While im not privy to A's financials nor did I ever mention them or a number, A disputed many charges and not just mine. Also on my end PP suspends the entire PP balance when a dispute like this happens.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 03:04:04 AM
So B made tens of thousands in charges not just to you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mplace on December 09, 2016, 03:05:40 AM
Can we make B's name public?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 03:06:10 AM
So B made tens of thousands in charges not just to you.
That is my understanding. To A, it was the more the merrier.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Emkay on December 09, 2016, 08:07:43 AM
Now that we all agree in some form or another, regardless of how we got to that understanding we can now all put this behind us and go focus on truly controversial topics, after all it is Friday.
I would like to publicly apologize to @JTZ or anyone else that feels I got too personal or insulting. It truly was not meant to be and was all intended in good nature.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 09:36:59 AM
No need for apologizes. Hopefully we all understand each others point of view better instead of looking at it as one of us is right and the other is wrong. In case I forget an early GS to all of you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on December 09, 2016, 09:38:10 AM
No need for apologizes. Hopefully we all understand each others point of view better instead of looking at it as one of us is right and the other is wrong. In case I forget an early GS to all of you.
You see, that's why we keep you around
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 09, 2016, 09:54:15 AM
If you don't understand when I make a deal with you I don't give a rats *ss what side deals you make. Any actions I take that affect your side deals I don't give a rats *ss. If don't understand this basic principal you should stop doing deals.
How do you even rationalize that? I'd be scared to a deal with you because if the item we exchange would get stolen you'd come take back what you gave me.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Moshe123 on December 09, 2016, 09:59:56 AM
This thread will die down when Dan moves it to just schmooze.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JTZ on December 09, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
How do you even rationalize that? I'd be scared to a deal with you because if the item we exchange would get stolen you'd come take back what you gave me.
You want to cause trouble? Please take it JS as this discussion now has a fork in it.  :P
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Super Speed on December 09, 2016, 10:11:53 AM
You want to cause trouble? Please take it JS as this discussion now has a fork in it. 
I only saw the fork in it after I posted.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ExGingi on December 09, 2016, 11:22:34 AM
Don't assume. Is this the way it happened?
Reuven gave Shimon his CC to use, Shimon went to Levi and told him let me swipe my card by you and pay me cash for the purcahse,
Moral of the story: don't ever assume you understand the facts of the case based on poorly structured sentences.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on December 22, 2016, 02:36:34 AM
Wow this thread got way off topic.

I was curious what the consensus on selling trade-lines was. I assume a big no-no but still curious.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/selling-tradelines-piggybacking-$600hr-20-40kyr-side-gig/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/selling-tradelines-piggybacking-$600hr-20-40kyr-side-gig/)

Doesn't seem to be much in this forum on it:
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=50632.msg1096571#msg1096571
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=96.msg1442491#msg1442491
Title: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: CreativeGuy on February 08, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
Are there any existing threads that cover this subject? I attempted to find a thread, but to no avail. TIA!
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 08, 2018, 08:04:48 AM
Are there any existing threads that cover this subject? I attempted to find a thread, but to no avail. TIA!
Not so sure what the question is, although we did have one that turned to this get deleted :)
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: coralsnake on February 08, 2018, 08:05:17 AM
Are there any existing threads that cover this subject? I attempted to find a thread, but to no avail. TIA!
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.0
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: Aerial Dag on February 08, 2018, 08:23:38 AM
These threads typically get deleted. Not sure what rule they violate. but donít forget that forums are still accessible by everyone on the internet so probably best to keep these conversations to those restricted chats Imho
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: CreativeGuy on February 09, 2018, 09:56:05 AM
Not so sure what the question is, although we did have one that turned to this get deleted :)

I'm not understanding what you're saying. Who or what is "one"? Any what is "this"? I'm honestly trying to decipher what you said. Thanks.
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: etech0 on February 09, 2018, 09:56:36 AM
I'm not understanding what you're saying. Who or what is "one"? Any what is "this"? I'm honestly trying to decipher what you said. Thanks.
one thread
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: CreativeGuy on February 09, 2018, 09:57:22 AM
These threads typically get deleted. Not sure what rule they violate. but donít forget that forums are still accessible by everyone on the internet so probably best to keep these conversations to those restricted chats Imho

Really? That's interesting.
Title: Re: How to Make the Most out of Buying Groups?
Post by: CreativeGuy on February 09, 2018, 09:58:58 AM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.0

Thank you!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yesitsme on February 11, 2018, 03:37:37 PM
Fwd: BEWARE; if you're selling miles or points, stay away from a guy named Shlomo or Alex Kay. His company name changes but he's been using the same phone number (below). He just scammed us out of a ton of money. Here's his contact information: ShlomoSmiles@gmail.com, shlomosmiles@icloud.com, Sashakoro@gmail.com home/ office 718-380-2574,
Mobile +1-646-675-2627 This isn't a repost. Happened to us personally.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on February 11, 2018, 03:42:38 PM

there are enough people out there that are well known as honest buyers there is pretty much no need to use a guy based on a ad
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cmey on February 11, 2018, 04:05:25 PM
there are enough people out there that are well known as honest buyers there is pretty much no need to use a guy based on a ad
Most casual readers of DDF donít know any better and will call up random brokers and go with the highest quoted price...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 11, 2018, 04:13:07 PM
Most casual readers of DDF donít know any better and will call up random brokers and go with the highest quoted price...
+100
The risk is real, I think this should be a PSA stickied under this one.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: thaber on February 12, 2018, 01:34:05 AM
+100
The risk is real, I think this should be a PSA stickied under this one.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36832.0
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on February 12, 2018, 02:25:35 AM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36832.0
I wouldn't call this a dedicated thread for that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 12, 2018, 07:35:41 AM
I wouldn't call this a dedicated thread for that.
It's not just not a "dedicated" thread for it, it does the include it at all
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mgarfin on February 12, 2018, 08:30:44 AM


This broker has paid me thousands of dollars without issue so when my BIL asked about him I said he's good. He then scammed him out of 10k+
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 12, 2018, 08:33:09 AM
This broker has paid me thousands of dollars without issue so when my BIL asked about him I said he's good. He then scammed him out of 10k+
There is a limit how much precaution one can take, I believe for this it ends at getting references, can someone reliable go dirty  yes, can we prevent this, no.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on February 12, 2018, 09:05:34 AM
Is there no recourse? We just let this guy steal money from people? Can't take him to beis din? Or speak to a Rav about reporting him to the authorities (if it's mutar)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on February 12, 2018, 09:32:58 AM
It's not just not a "dedicated" thread for it, it does the include it at all
True but it's a deserves it's own thread. Allowing other people to charge you card is one thing. Mileage brokers is another.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chinagel on February 12, 2018, 09:51:07 AM
This broker has paid me thousands of dollars without issue so when my BIL asked about him I said he's good. He then scammed him out of 10k+
how exactly?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on February 12, 2018, 09:58:37 AM
i actually used the guy no problem a few times with no problem at all.  i guess never again
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on February 12, 2018, 11:07:47 AM
i actually used the guy no problem a few times with no problem at all.  i guess never again

$ upfront
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on February 12, 2018, 11:32:47 AM
i actually used the guy no problem a few times with no problem at all.  i guess never again
That's part of the business scam model.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on February 12, 2018, 11:34:07 AM
That's part of the business scam model.
lol
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mgarfin on February 12, 2018, 12:30:05 PM
Is there no recourse? We just let this guy steal money from people? Can't take him to beis din? Or speak to a Rav about reporting him to the authorities (if it's mutar)

He used the miles for himself and purchased a ticket in his name for a flight flown on Shabbos! rav beis din, na

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on February 12, 2018, 02:45:43 PM
He used the miles for himself and purchased a ticket in his name for a flight flown on Shabbos! rav beis din, na

Did he fly or just use it to turn into credit?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mgarfin on February 12, 2018, 02:49:21 PM
Did he fly or just use it to turn into credit?

He also booked a hotel in that city but I did not see him do it!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Ergel on February 13, 2018, 03:44:18 AM
He used the miles for himself and purchased a ticket in his name for a flight flown on Shabbos! rav beis din, na


Again, I would ask a Rav if it's mutar to report him to the authorities. He is being מכלה ממון ישראל.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 13, 2018, 07:55:28 AM
Again, I would ask a Rav if it's mutar to report him to the authorities. He is being מכלה ממון ישראל.
You likely have to get a hetter from b"d, asking a Rav won't do.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: jose34 on February 13, 2018, 08:57:46 AM
Most casual readers of DDF donít know any better and will call up random brokers and go with the highest quoted price...

Is their a another thread for this - dangers of selling points?
Can we get some stories and some reasons why selling points can get a person messed over?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 13, 2018, 09:09:11 AM
Is their a another thread for this - dangers of selling points?
Can we get some stories and some reasons why selling points can get a person messed over?
No. Most of it is the obvious.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on February 13, 2018, 09:49:24 AM


Again, I would ask a Rav if it's mutar to report him to the authorities. He is being מכלה ממון ישראל.

Your getting into a mess...if they start taking a look into buying/selling miles it won't be worth it .

Is their a another thread for this - dangers of selling points?
Can we get some stories and some reasons why selling points can get a person messed over?

+
 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ADG on February 13, 2018, 12:03:52 PM
who we talking about? Mitzva lefarshem?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on February 13, 2018, 12:11:54 PM
who we talking about? Mitzva lefarshem?
Fwd: BEWARE; if you're selling miles or points, stay away from a guy named Shlomo or Alex Kay. His company name changes but he's been using the same phone number (below). He just scammed us out of a ton of money. Here's his contact information: ShlomoSmiles@gmail.com, shlomosmiles@icloud.com, Sashakoro@gmail.com home/ office 718-380-2574,
Mobile +1-646-675-2627 This isn't a repost. Happened to us personally.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on February 13, 2018, 12:19:01 PM
Is their a another thread for this - dangers of selling points?
There have been
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on February 13, 2018, 12:20:24 PM
Again, I would ask a Rav if it's mutar to report him to the authorities. He is being מכלה ממון ישראל.
That could be a bad idea
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on February 13, 2018, 01:04:49 PM
There have been
Can you find it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: etech0 on February 13, 2018, 01:09:11 PM
Can you find it?
Are they still around?
Title: Offer help with Minimum spend
Post by: topciu on March 09, 2018, 01:36:37 AM
I can offer some help with anyone that needs some minimum spend or even simple churning.
Buy an item from me for $400 paypal + ebay account required  and I'll pay you back the full amount via chase pay.

PM me if you are interested.
Title: Re: Offer help with Minimum spend
Post by: AJK on March 09, 2018, 01:39:45 AM
I can offer some help with anyone that needs some minimum spend or even simple churning.
Buy an item from me for $400 paypal + ebay account required  and I'll pay you back the full amount via chase pay.

PM me if you are interested.

Uh huh.


(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oEduHW0Y5OLTp8n1S/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Offer help with Minimum spend
Post by: gingyguy on March 09, 2018, 08:17:01 AM
Uh huh.


(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oEduHW0Y5OLTp8n1S/giphy.gif)
but it sounds so easy- why shouldnt it work?  ;D
Title: Re: Offer help with Minimum spend
Post by: Boruch999 on March 09, 2018, 08:24:38 AM
@topciu  Why wouldn't you spend on your own cards?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on March 09, 2018, 08:29:26 AM
I love how this was moved to this board :D
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: jj1000 on March 09, 2018, 08:37:20 AM
I love how this was moved to this board :D
(https://i.imgur.com/qeWrKxw.jpg)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Geshmak25 on March 09, 2018, 08:40:01 AM
I love how this was moved to this board :D
Lol I was about to post a link to this thread
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: topciu on March 09, 2018, 09:18:51 AM
I love how this was moved to this board :D
Kind of funny that was moved to this board ........
Its very simple though.
I should have highlighted the part "Buy FROM me & NOT BUY FOR ME " not trying to run a Nigerian scheme here.
And also the Answer is NO I cant buy from myself on ebay my account will get banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Boruch999 on March 09, 2018, 09:22:35 AM
Kind of funny that was moved to this board ........
Its very simple though.
I should have highlighted the part "Buy FROM me & NOT BUY FOR ME " not trying to run a Nigerian scheme here.
And also the Answer is NO I cant buy from myself on ebay my account will get banned.

Fair enough, that's a new twist.  Principle of the thread may still apply.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Geshmak25 on March 09, 2018, 09:47:22 AM
Kind of funny that was moved to this board ........
Its very simple though.
I should have highlighted the part "Buy FROM me & NOT BUY FOR ME " not trying to run a Nigerian scheme here.
And also the Answer is NO I cant buy from myself on ebay my account will get banned.
To prove the legitimacy of your post I think you should explain the motivation on your end.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: topciu on March 09, 2018, 10:23:07 AM
I don't have to prove anything. To those interested I already send my explanation by PM

Can one of the moderators please delete my original post that was moved to this thread
The system doesn't allow me to do it after you move it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on March 09, 2018, 10:36:56 AM
I don't have to prove anything. To those interested I already send my explanation by PM

Can one of the moderators please delete my original post that was moved to this thread
The system doesn't allow me to do it after you move it.
you kind of do have to prove yourself if you want people to trust you...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on March 09, 2018, 10:46:37 AM
To prove the legitimacy of your post I think you should explain the motivation on your end.
Don't know if this is what it is, but I can see it being something along the lines of:

Ebay sometimes offers subsidies to sellers on Hot Daily Deal type items, so he can move lots of inventory, get eBay rankings and feedback, and buy back his inventory to rinse and repeat (making profit off the subsidy, and again on future sales).

Or he's just / additionally trying to take advantage of the 20% off coupon (again, to buy back his merchandise at a discount).
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on March 21, 2018, 11:14:53 PM
If i give my card to a biz of a friend to swipe and something c"v goes wrong.


Would I be able to dispute?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 21, 2018, 11:16:41 PM
If i give my card to a biz of a friend to swipe and something c"v goes wrong.


Would I be able to dispute?
Do you want to lie ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on March 21, 2018, 11:21:39 PM
Do you want to lie ?
what part isnt truthful?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 21, 2018, 11:24:46 PM
what part isnt truthful?
how are you going to dispute the charge ? What will your claim be ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on March 21, 2018, 11:27:34 PM
how are you going to dispute the charge ? What will your claim be ?
charge is unauthorized if not paid back? idk ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on March 21, 2018, 11:31:22 PM
charge is unauthorized if not paid back?
Sounds like you authorized it
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 21, 2018, 11:42:26 PM
Sounds like you authorized it
Limaphrieah he never authorized it if libisof he can't pay:)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ckmk47 on March 22, 2018, 12:20:59 AM
Yehuda25,
Did you read the title of this thread?!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on March 22, 2018, 12:24:47 AM
Yehuda25,
Did you read the title of this thread?!
I did, I know.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 22, 2018, 09:45:55 AM
charge is unauthorized if not paid back? idk ::)
that's a lie. You authorized the charge
Heck, you might as well swipe away for your own transactions, and then dispute the charges because you can't afford to pay it all back.
Title: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mrprez27 on May 02, 2018, 11:01:15 PM
I don't believe this topic was touched upon in the 'swipe for others'.

There are a lot of 'buying groups' where people in the community will pay you back (and sometimes include a small commission) to buy stuff from stores such as BestBuy and in most cases price match.

My understanding is because they are trying to skirt ' limit per a household' and then sell these items overseas or when the sale ends?

This seems to be a great way to do massive churning (I have some coworkers moving a couple 100k and also some itemss have a commission).

Besides for the risk that the person may go under and not pay.

Is this kosher? Anyone familiar?

Thank You
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: sharkman on May 02, 2018, 11:09:42 PM
On a basic level there isn't much that could be not "kosher". Assuming you are keeping in the limits that the company set.
The company is selling you the product, and should you not get paid from the person you are buying for, you will be responsible for the paying the bill.
Your basically a reseller with drop shipping...
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: 12HRS on May 02, 2018, 11:10:20 PM
(I have some coworkers moving a couple 100k and also some itemss have a commission).

Is this kosher?

100k in what time period?

Ask your Rav?
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 12:13:46 AM
100k in what time period?
I know people who do that or sometimes multiples of that, monthly.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 12:25:00 AM
100k in what time period?

Ask your Rav?
The deals seem to be unlimited - its as much as people have a credit limit and are willing to cycle- for example, there was a sale for a mac at $985 so I know someone who had a 50k credit limit and ordered 50 and cycled it....you can only get 1 per a customer online though there are 4 colors he just did guest checkout and in 1 hr ordered 50k worth to his house...they hand it to the guy and he gives them a check.

Some deals like iPad at a 499 price match are so worth it for them they are offering upwards of $15 commission per an item.

At end of the day only rule being skirted it seems is a limit in this case though one can say they are ordering on behalf of '1 per a family member' etc.

Best buy gets the money and the cc gets the money....i am trying to find whats wrong here

Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 03, 2018, 12:26:12 AM
The deals seem to be unlimited - its as much as people have a credit limit and are willing to cycle- for example, there was a sale for a mac at $985 so I know someone who had a 50k credit limit and ordered 50 and cycled it....you can only get 1 per a customer online though there are 4 colors he just did guest checkout and in 1 hr ordered 50k worth to his house...they hand it to the guy and he gives them a check.

Some deals like iPad at a 499 price match are so worth it for them they are offering upwards of $15 commission per an item.

At end of the day only rule being skirted it seems is a limit in this case though one can say they are ordering on behalf of '1 per a family member' etc.

Best buy gets the money and the cc gets the money....i am trying to find whats wrong here
You are over simplifying getting orders through.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: cholent on May 03, 2018, 12:31:26 AM
I know people who do that or sometimes multiples of that, monthly.

Really? Very impressive
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 12:34:01 AM
You are over simplifying getting orders through.
I know its difficult or they wouldn't offer it - I'm not trying to say something is fishy because "why don't they just order it themselves" -

let's take an example of an item without a commission to make things simple, they are resellers... it's much easier to get a bunch of people to buy for them vs spending hours getting creative with guest purchases etc.

I'm just trying to figure out is there any other not kosher or illegal dynamic that could get someone in trouble.

It seems the only issue is "household limit"....and not sure if its even a ethical issue to ignore that?

You could say technically once you buy it it's yours to deal with so even if you have in mind to buy as many as you want once you get it you can then 'decide' to resell even though BestBuy does not want that.

Further, most of these groups supply best buy tax id's that are given to the buying group people from best buy after they show bestbuy they are resellers so it seems they if they cared they would shut it down.....they should be able to tie 1,000's of ipad orders to a tax id they gave out.

^^^^^ I do not know Halacha this is just my ramble....am I trying to justify something unethical?

Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 12:34:57 AM
Really? Very impressive

think about it - lets say a buying group will take as many macs as u can buy so you have a 100k limit even and u just order as many as possible.

I am sure its doable....question is - is this ethical and any even small factor here illegal?
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: SamCan on May 03, 2018, 02:12:22 AM
If someone moves 100k per year a more, wont it trigger an audit from the irs, being that he is receiveing more than 100k a year from a certain corporation?
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: yitrap on May 03, 2018, 02:17:02 AM
If someone moves 100k per year a more, wont it trigger an audit from the irs, being that he is receiveing more than 100k a year from a certain corporation?
Open a business account. You are a business after all
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 02:46:13 AM
Really? Very impressive
You're not special
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: cholent on May 03, 2018, 03:06:49 AM
You're not special
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 03:07:26 AM

Ok, fine, I take it back.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: 12HRS on May 03, 2018, 08:00:05 AM
Really? Very impressive

and he is responding to me so I'm not special either  >:(
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: ben89 on May 03, 2018, 09:05:34 AM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 03, 2018, 09:24:25 AM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
Pretty sure I did 50+...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 03, 2018, 09:25:00 AM
If someone moves 100k per year a more, wont it trigger an audit from the irs, being that he is receiveing more than 100k a year from a certain corporation?
If that's the barometer to get audited, then half of DDF would have been audited already...
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2018, 09:26:14 AM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
I considered myself lucky when I was able to get 5 through. These days I'm lucky if I could get one to go through...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 03, 2018, 09:26:19 AM
Pretty sure I did 50+...
From Best Buy?
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: chinagel on May 03, 2018, 09:34:46 AM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
werent macbooks on ebay? theyre much easier
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 09:35:06 AM
I don't believe this topic was touched upon in the 'swipe for others'.

There are a lot of 'buying groups' where people in the community will pay you back (and sometimes include a small commission) to buy stuff from stores such as BestBuy and in most cases price match.

My understanding is because they are trying to skirt ' limit per a household' and then sell these items overseas or when the sale ends?

This seems to be a great way to do massive churning (I have some coworkers moving a couple 100k and also some itemss have a commission).

Besides for the risk that the person may go under and not pay.

Is this kosher? Anyone familiar?

Thank You
PSA: Be very careful doing this. Most of these are shoestring operations and have no backup capital if something goes wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 03, 2018, 09:41:40 AM
I know its difficult or they wouldn't offer it - I'm not trying to say something is fishy because "why don't they just order it themselves" -

let's take an example of an item without a commission to make things simple, they are resellers... it's much easier to get a bunch of people to buy for them vs spending hours getting creative with guest purchases etc.

I'm just trying to figure out is there any other not kosher or illegal dynamic that could get someone in trouble.

It seems the only issue is "household limit"....and not sure if its even a ethical issue to ignore that?

You could say technically once you buy it it's yours to deal with so even if you have in mind to buy as many as you want once you get it you can then 'decide' to resell even though BestBuy does not want that.

Further, most of these groups supply best buy tax id's that are given to the buying group people from best buy after they show bestbuy they are resellers so it seems they if they cared they would shut it down.....they should be able to tie 1,000's of ipad orders to a tax id they gave out.

^^^^^ I do not know Halacha this is just my ramble....am I trying to justify something unethical?
I think you're only issue is getting your accounts banned at retailers. And you're writing an over simplIfication. You didn't once mention all the canceled orders and redirected packages. 50 macs in an hour (that actually got delivered) is incredibly impressive.

Imho it's very easy for the companies to link accounts. I believe they don't because it serves them well. It seems to me you should ask your LOR more than a forum. Or ping @yehuda .
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2018, 09:43:22 AM
PSA: Be very careful doing this. Most of these are shoestring operations and have no backup capital if something goes wrong.
If you get the packages to your house, and that buying group goes bankrupt, worst case you could just return the items. It's a pain, but it's not a terrible loss..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 03, 2018, 09:44:11 AM
If you get the packages to your house, and that buying group goes bankrupt, worst case you could just return the items. It's a pain, but it's not a terrible loss..
Unless you give it to them in exchange for a check which then bounces
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 03, 2018, 09:47:34 AM
Unless you give it to them in exchange for a check which then bounces
Any dps on that? I had one $15k check that bounced but they were proactive and cut a new check same day so my account wasn't overdrawn.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 09:47:50 AM
Unless you give it to them in exchange for a check which then bounces
Bingo!!!
I am not saying anyone is dishonest. Many just don't have the funds to make things right if something goes bad. You will find out a persons real character when something goes wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 09:49:51 AM
Any dps on that? I had one $15k check that bounced but they were proactive and cut a new check same day so my account wasn't overdrawn.
...and why did the check bounce?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: farmbochur on May 03, 2018, 09:51:09 AM
Isn't it patent/trademark infringement to sell Apple products without authorization from the company?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 03, 2018, 09:51:52 AM
...and why did the check bounce?
Who knows but they reached out to me with a new check before I even knew it did.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2018, 09:52:08 AM
Unless you give it to them in exchange for a check which then bounces
Oops. Good point.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 03, 2018, 09:52:32 AM
Isn't it patent/trademark infringement to sell Apple products without authorization from the company?
No.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2018, 09:52:43 AM
Isn't it patent/trademark infringement to sell Apple products without authorization from the company?
What?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 09:55:15 AM
Who knows but they reached out to me with a new check before I even knew it did.
Bounced check is a red flag. Extending the time to make a payment is another.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 10:00:08 AM
PSA: Be very careful doing this. Most of these are shoestring operations and have no backup capital if something goes wrong.
You'd be surprised how much capital is invested in these guy.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 10:00:43 AM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
-1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 03, 2018, 10:03:50 AM
Bounced check is a red flag. Extending the time to make a payment is another.
Or it was January and the amount of volume was really high and they were proactive and covered the $15 OD fee.

In a transaction like this you'll always have counterparty risk. Many things can go wrong. But I think there is strength in numbers. Larger established groups have a reputation. It's not worth screwing someone in the short run when working honestly can be much more profitable in the long run.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 10:04:28 AM
You'd be surprised how much capital is invested in these guy.
Just like I would surprised how much capital is invested in mile/points brokers?  ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 10:05:46 AM
Just like I would surprised how much capital is invested in mile/points brokers?  ;)
Lol, I'm not saying they all have large capital investors but some definitely do, they're dealing with millions in liquid funds.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 03, 2018, 10:06:17 AM
Isn't it patent/trademark infringement to sell Apple products without authorization from the company?

https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-doctrine
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: farmbochur on May 03, 2018, 10:09:30 AM
https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-doctrine
Thx.

So what's the significance to being an "authorized reseller"?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 10:09:50 AM
Or it was January and the amount of volume was really high and they were proactive and covered the $15 OD fee.

In a transaction like this you'll always have counterparty risk. Many things can go wrong. But I think there is strength in numbers. Larger established groups have a reputation. It's not worth screwing someone in the short run when working honestly can be much more profitable in the long run.
You missed the point. If they can't cover Januarys high volume then there is a big problem. They are not looking to screw anyone. The question is can they cover unexpected situations. If they front someone 1mm of product and that person goes belly up now what happens?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 03, 2018, 10:10:59 AM
-1
POIDH
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
Lol, I'm not saying they all have large capital investors but some definitely do, they're dealing with millions in liquid funds.
So now you have to figure out who has the liquid funds. A bounced check does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 03, 2018, 10:24:17 AM
You missed the point. If they can't cover Januarys high volume then there is a big problem. They are not looking to screw anyone. The question is can they cover unexpected situations. If they front someone 1mm of product and that person goes belly up now what happens?
I had no issues before or afterward and they were proactive with the check. If they went belly up I doubt you'd take a total haircut unless they really were botching things up. But I think you'd have other clues to that well in advance. You can never totally mitigate risk. You do what you are comfortable with.

While the risks might not be clearly defined, there are clearly risks so you work to protect yourself. Most people working a regular job (for example) with clearly defined risks don't protect themselves from a much bigger risk of getting let go or not being paid timely.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 10:27:21 AM
I had no issues before or afterward and they were proactive with the check. If they went belly up I doubt you'd take a total haircut unless they really were botching things up. But I think you'd have other clues to that well in advance. You can never totally mitigate risk. You do what you are comfortable with.

While the risks might not be clearly defined, there are clearly risks so you work to protect yourself. Most people working a regular job (for example) with clearly defined risks don't protect themselves from a much bigger risk of getting let go or not being paid timely.
You seem to understand the risks. Hopefully these few post will help others understand the risks.
Title: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 10:29:06 AM
POIDH
I personally know people who did multiples of that, it was ebay, not bestbuy.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on May 03, 2018, 10:49:46 AM
whats the average return they give you?  trying to calculate how many times you must do this until the risk goes down. for example if you get 5% eventually (after 15 times about ) even if you lose the whole deal you still break even in your pocket
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 10:51:13 AM
At the end of the day my question is is it illegal or unethical or bring any unwanted attention by a govt body?

Here are the issues people seem to be bringing up.

A. One it's difficult and not as easy as I keep saying...ok so let's assume its difficult to be playing this game - my questions still stand

B. The people could give a bounced check...this isn't swiping for others, people are bringing orders in increments of 5k or 10k and waiting for the check to clear so WORST case scenario for many they are out 5k. And if the guys don't have money but are honest he can give you the product back to return.

C. Audit...ok so IRS sees your 'moving' 100k's though you have receipts - is this legal? is it structuring? are these 'passthoughts' taxed?

D. Amex reveiw...ok worst comes to worst your card is closed.


I have two key questions:

1. What are these guys doing that they have such a backing? - when someone sells them an iPad for $499 that's on sale from $649 and they give a $10 commission - who do they sell these too...? I heard they sell it overseas and also wait for them to stop the sale and sell FBA and eBay? One this is for sure some of these deals they cant buy enough and will take as many orders as people will bring.


2. Is this is ANYWAY illegal or unethical or even slightly unkosher? Will this even cause any issues with a regulatory body?


Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 10:59:53 AM
Keep in mind this is different from let's say swiping 100k for a company and they will 'pay you later'.

Most people doing this are buying many products and handing them to a guy and getting the check in hand - they are doing this in 5k-10k increments and waiting for clear.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 03, 2018, 11:17:36 AM
I personally know people who did multiples of that, it was ebay, not bestbuy.
the guy was talking about Best Buy
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: TimT on May 03, 2018, 11:17:54 AM
or bring any unwanted attention by a govt body?
Which govt body are you most concerned about ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2018, 11:45:15 AM
Which govt body are you most concerned about ?
Any one with three letters? There is a lot of them.  ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on May 03, 2018, 12:07:53 PM
seems like everyone here is pretty educated in buying groups
any tips on how to get unblocked from best buy/staples?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 03, 2018, 12:19:40 PM
seems like everyone here is pretty educated in buying groups
any tips on how to get unblocked from best buy/staples?
Seems like anyone who shares that, gets blocked from DDF.  :P
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on May 03, 2018, 12:27:01 PM
Seems like anyone who shares that, gets blocked from DDF.  :P

 :-X
i actually had an issue with a cc ( amex put misspelled name on card so didn't match order and i didn't realize ) and they needed to verify info and since then i have had a hard time with them
looks like everyone here has some work around so just looking for tips.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2018, 12:52:19 PM
seems like everyone here is pretty educated in buying groups
any tips on how to get unblocked from best buy/staples?
+1 if there ever was one.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: Abebee on May 03, 2018, 03:53:27 PM
There is no way in the world that that guy got 50 MacBook orders through. POIDH
There are actually plenty of ways in this world.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: S209 on May 03, 2018, 04:33:04 PM
There are actually plenty of ways in this world.
Please share. I've been completely shut down from Best Buy and eBay for ages, guest checkout to the roof but nothing doing. And I'm pretty sure buying groups are the leading form of MS these days.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: tzifanya54 on May 03, 2018, 04:37:05 PM
I had no issues before or afterward and they were proactive with the check. If they went belly up I doubt you'd take a total haircut unless they really were botching things up. But I think you'd have other clues to that well in advance. You can never totally mitigate risk. You do what you are comfortable with.

While the risks might not be clearly defined, there are clearly risks so you work to protect yourself. Most people working a regular job (for example) with clearly defined risks don't protect themselves from a much bigger risk of getting let go or not being paid timely.
Completely disagree. Risk is real, like CM said they can get screwed on their end, and they do not have unlimited funds. For that reason I try to limit the amount I give them at any one time. In the event their end user dissent pay, its very possible to take a complete haircut.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 03, 2018, 07:31:03 PM
Guys can anyone please answer my q's. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

though instead of asking how not to get banned from bestbuy does ANYONE on here

A. Know if this is illegal in anyway

B. Where they are selling the products bought from the buying group
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 03, 2018, 08:20:24 PM
Guys can anyone please answer my q's. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

though instead of asking how not to get banned from bestbuy does ANYONE on here

A. Know if this is illegal in anyway

B. Where they are selling the products bought from the buying group
A. No
B. Mostly overseas but who cares.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on May 03, 2018, 08:30:23 PM


Guys can anyone please answer my q's. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

though instead of asking how not to get banned from bestbuy does ANYONE on here

A. Know if this is illegal in anyway

B. Where they are selling the products bought from the buying group

B. The smaller groups sell to the bigger groups who often sell to even bigger/established groups..., who sell to exporters who sell it overseas.. some do a little retail and some export it themselves
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 12:29:26 AM
A. No
B. Mostly overseas but who cares.

A. Are you sure

B. who cares? because why just smile and make our $10 commission when there is possibly a whole other business front.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 12:30:01 AM

B. The smaller groups sell to the bigger groups who often sell to even bigger/established groups..., who sell to exporters who sell it overseas.. some do a little retail and some export it themselves

Interesting...what are they loaded onto containers and sent to China?

Why cant they just buy direct and same wholesale pricing?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on May 04, 2018, 07:11:32 AM
A. Are you sure

B. who cares? because why just smile and make our $10 commission when there is possibly a whole other business front.
If you are unsure about the legality of purchasing 5 MacBooks, I don't think exporting tens of thousands of items for resale is the business for you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 04, 2018, 07:51:00 AM
If you are unsure about the legality of purchasing 5 MacBooks, I don't think exporting tens of thousands of items for resale is the business for you.
+1 why don't you explore the industry before deciding to own it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 08:15:35 AM
+1 why don't you explore the industry before deciding to own it.
Isn't that exactly what he's trying to do here?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 04, 2018, 08:16:26 AM
Isn't that exactly what he's trying to do here?
This isn't a buying group.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 04, 2018, 08:23:08 AM
A. Are you sure


You are asking an anonymous person on the internet if its illegal in any way and then you ask if they are sure?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 08:34:04 AM
A. Are you sure
What part do feel is illegal?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 10:45:12 AM
You are asking an anonymous person on the internet if its illegal in any way and then you ask if they are sure?
Sorry I meant to say "how did you come to that conclusion - please provide sources"
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 10:45:32 AM
Isn't that exactly what he's trying to do here?
Yes - trying to just research and get info
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 10:47:32 AM
If you are unsure about the legality of purchasing 5 MacBooks, I don't think exporting tens of thousands of items for resale is the business for you.
That's why I'm on this group -- the people seem to be using reseller tax licenses - so besides breaking store policies I presume everything is done Kosher....if so its something to explore..maybe there is a more legitimate way to get bulk cheap brand electronics to 'export' to these magical overseas buyers.

If no one has any information that's fine but I'm just here to try to gain some insight.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 10:53:21 AM
What does part feel is illegal?

It just feels Fishy....I'm trying to figure that out for myself...on one hand it seems ok to me (everyone gets paid, you then the CC and obviously the store)  and on the other hand,  something seems off.

I know G-d fearing people that won't give out their wifi password because they read in the terms and conditions it's not allowed.

In relation to breaking best buy policy that's something that I feel has to be internalized if I think it's Ethical and also ask a Rav.

Though I can't even really verify if it is really against best buy policy.....honestly, I'm just trying to gather as much information so I can make a personal decision if this is ok
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 10:56:53 AM
It just feels Fishy....I'm trying to figure that out for myself...on one hand it seems ok to me (everyone gets paid, you then the CC and obviously the store)  and on the other hand,  something seems off.

I know G-d fearing people that won't give out their wifi password because they read in the terms and conditions it's not allowed.

In relation to breaking best buy policy that's something that I feel has to be internalized if I think it's Ethical and also ask a Rav.

Though I can't even really verify if it is really against best buy policy.....honestly, I'm just trying to gather as much information so I can make a personal decision if this is ok
There is nothing illegal about reselling.
Are some not reporting their taxable profits, yes. Is that illegal, yes.
If members felt breaking companies policies was wrong and didn't do it then this forum would be dead!  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 04, 2018, 11:09:57 AM
It just feels Fishy....I'm trying to figure that out for myself...on one hand it seems ok to me (everyone gets paid, you then the CC and obviously the store)  and on the other hand,  something seems off.

I know G-d fearing people that won't give out their wifi password because they read in the terms and conditions it's not allowed.

In relation to breaking best buy policy that's something that I feel has to be internalized if I think it's Ethical and also ask a Rav.

Though I can't even really verify if it is really against best buy policy.....honestly, I'm just trying to gather as much information so I can make a personal decision if this is ok
Piece of info for you...

When you apply for a tax exempt certificate from Bestbuy one of the options there is "reseller".
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: sruly on May 04, 2018, 12:57:12 PM
Seems like people are forgetting very quickly the Google Nexus fiasco.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 04, 2018, 01:52:35 PM
maybe there is a more legitimate way to get bulk cheap brand electronics to 'export' to these magical overseas buyers.
Lol, you don't know the first thing about how this business works and already you think you might be able to come up with a better way to run it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 04, 2018, 01:52:52 PM
Seems like people are forgetting very quickly the Google Nexus fiasco.
That was a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 04, 2018, 01:54:10 PM
Seems like people are forgetting very quickly the Google Nexus fiasco.

...because ebay and best buy control my email/contacts/calendar/life/soul?

...no.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2018, 01:58:22 PM
Lol, you don't know the first thing about how this business works and already you think you might be able to come up with a better way to run it?
That is sometimes the best way to come up with it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 04, 2018, 01:59:01 PM
That is sometimes the best way to come up with it.
Nu Nu.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 02:05:19 PM
That is sometimes the best way to come up with it.
You mean like trailers that get misplaced in Chicago all the time?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2018, 02:06:02 PM
You mean like trailers that get misplaced in Chicago all the time?  :)
I don't get the reference.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
I don't get the reference.
No reference just facts. He is trying to come up with a better way. Getting the items for .10 on the 1.00 is a better way but not legal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on May 04, 2018, 02:08:50 PM
Not sure how anyone who claims to be involved even has time to post in this thread today...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 02:13:01 PM
Not sure how anyone who claims to be involved even has time to post in this thread today...
Some hot deal we are missing?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 04, 2018, 02:13:20 PM
Not sure how anyone who claims to be involved even has time to post in this thread today...

lol

3 monitors baby
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on May 04, 2018, 02:14:33 PM
Some hot deal we are missing?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=92441.0
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 02:16:56 PM
Ebay is terrible every thing is giving me a different error.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 02:17:20 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=92441.0
Excludes gold so not worth my time.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 02:44:00 PM
Ebay is terrible every thing is giving me a different error.
That's regular. I actually made out quite well today bh.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 02:46:27 PM
That's regular. I actually made out quite well today bh.
I hate when the deal has a coupon, it makes more opportunities for error.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 02:53:18 PM
B. who cares? because why just smile and make our $10 commission when there is possibly a whole other business front.
Dude. Really? These people gave you a way to earn bucketloads of points, and commissions to boot, for what can be a relatively great return on your time (everyone's time is worth different amounts [financially], and you need to decide that for yourself). They spoonfeed you everything, including the actual deals to buy. So therefore, it's the opportune time to make all the money they made through building their respective businesses, because "why smile and make our $10 commission"?

If you have that attitude, then you can question anything profitable you've ever undertaken, and apply it. Like, "Why earn points from a bank by swiping credit cards when I can just invent PayPal and charge people instead?"  Or, "Why buy electronics from a wholesaler when I can just manufacture it myself?"
Now, this is not necessarily a terrible attitude in life, if you choose one specific industry, as people do it, and sometimes become very rich and successful in the process. But it's not a legitimate question to ask yourself before deciding if you should join a spending group, or any other profitable venture. The profit, no matter how fat, that someone else earns through leveraging your time and effort shouldn't be in the equation of whether it's worth your time. The only thing that matters, in a market transaction, is what YOU will earn, and whether it's worth it for YOU.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 02:54:15 PM
I hate when the deal has a coupon, it makes more opportunities for error.
And makes for more deals. Quantity over quality is the name of the spending group game :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 02:55:01 PM
And makes for more deals. Quantity over quality is the name of the spending group game :)
Huh
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Dude. Really? These people gave you a way to earn bucketloads of points, and commissions to boot, for what can be a relatively great return on your time (everyone's time is worth different amounts [financially], and you need to decide that for yourself). They spoonfeed you everything, including the actual deals to buy. So therefore, it's the opportune time to make all the money they made through building their respective businesses, because "why smile and make our $10 commission"?

If you have that attitude, then you can question anything profitable you've ever undertaken, and apply it. Like, "Why earn points from a bank by swiping credit cards when I can just invent PayPal and charge people instead?"  Or, "Why buy electronics from a wholesaler when I can just manufacture it myself?"
Now, this is not necessarily a terrible attitude in life, if you choose one specific industry, as people do it, and sometimes become very rich and successful in the process. But it's not a legitimate question to ask yourself before deciding if you should join a spending group, or any other profitable venture. The profit, no matter how fat, that someone else earns through leveraging your time and effort shouldn't be in the equation of whether it's worth your time. The only thing that matters, in a market transaction, is what YOU will earn, and whether it's worth it for YOU.
Don't mean to be harsh. Sorry if that's how I came across. Just a bit of life advice. Use it if you will, discard it if you dare.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 02:56:55 PM
Huh
Coupons make any regular priced item an awesome deal and buy-worthy. I'll take many deals that aren't as smooth over a couple that are easier, because ramping up the spending is what's important.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 02:58:09 PM
Don't mean to be harsh. Sorry if that's how I came across. Just a bit of life advice. Use it if you will, discard it if you dare.
He is just looking for a better way. Maybe his better way will be to move up the food chain. How many here use to just sell their points/miles until they found out how much they were leaving on the table. Now they are brokers.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 03:15:07 PM
He is just looking for a better way. Maybe his better way will be to move up the food chain. How many here use to just sell their points/miles until they found out how much they were leaving on the table. Now they are brokers.
And then brokers became travel agents, agents became hotel operators, hotel operators became hospitality moguls?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 03:17:30 PM
And then brokers became travel agents,
That part is true.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 03:17:52 PM
He is just looking for a better way. Maybe his better way will be to move up the food chain. How many here use to just sell their points/miles until they found out how much they were leaving on the table. Now they are brokers.
Those people started off selling points, then transitioned to the next step. Here, one of OPs original 2 questions before deciding whether he should even join was whether it's not worth it to do as others are getting a bigger slice of the pie. And I don't think that's a smart way to approach business and life. Get in first, then make it better. Don't let others' successes get in the way of your own.

Feel free to differ.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 03:18:04 PM
That part is true.
Lol I know
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 03:46:53 PM
Lol, you don't know the first thing about how this business works and already you think you might be able to come up with a better way to run it?
Are you serious??? Maybe if someone was willing to share some info lol!....I dont mean to be rude but comments such as this stifle idea and the ability for free conversation.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 04, 2018, 03:48:35 PM
Are you serious??? Maybe if someone was willing to share some info....
I'm dead serious, you think the people in this business just woke up one day with all the contacts and know how needed to do what they do? If someone's really interested in starting a business like this, go work for one the big guys for a couple years and learn the ropes.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 03:49:28 PM


..... go work for one the big guys for a couple years and learn the ropes.

Agreed.
But don't them them that's why you want the job :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 03:49:49 PM
I'm dead serious, you think the people in this business just woke up one day with all the contacts and know how needed to do what they do? If someone's really interested in starting a business like this, go work for one the big guys for a couple years and learn the ropes.
Exactly my point
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 03:57:34 PM
Dude. Really? These people gave you a way to earn bucketloads of points, and commissions to boot, for what can be a relatively great return on your time (everyone's time is worth different amounts [financially], and you need to decide that for yourself). They spoonfeed you everything, including the actual deals to buy. So, therefore, it's the opportune time to make all the money they made through building their respective businesses, because "why smile and make our $10 commission"?

If you have that attitude, then you can question anything profitable you've ever undertaken, and apply it. Like, "Why earn points from a bank by swiping credit cards when I can just invent PayPal and charge people instead?"  Or, "Why buy electronics from a wholesaler when I can just manufacture it myself?"
Now, this is not necessarily a terrible attitude in life, if you choose one specific industry, as people do it, and sometimes become very rich and successful in the process. But it's not a legitimate question to ask yourself before deciding if you should join a spending group, or any other profitable venture. The profit, no matter how fat, that someone else earns through leveraging your time and effort shouldn't be in the equation of whether it's worth your time. The only thing that matters, in a market transaction, is what YOU will earn, and whether it's worth it for YOU.

"I am not at all jealous of the 'big man in the tower' who MUST be making more because I only get $10.....   "    that is not what I am thinking.

The people who make change are people who like to learn and see if they can do it better....its good to ask questions.

And my original question was trying to hone in on two points...

1. Is there is any risk of doing this (I am fine with just being a part of the group and trying to spend to reach some point goals I have set?

But also 2. I am a very curious individual (and it has helped me immensely in life) so when something is so secret I like to try to get a better understanding. 

I don't have any 'attitude' or at least hope I don't ;)

Everyone else is just minding their business willing to buy the deals and i'm asking the key questions....a) is this legit and b) how is it done.........not so I can copy it but because of its kind of rare nowadays for people to be running massive business operations shrouded in secrecy.

'exporting to countries' what does that even mean? Why are people so private about it?



Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 04:01:45 PM
I'm dead serious, you think the people in this business just woke up one day with all the contacts and know-how needed to do what they do? If someone's really interested in starting a business like this, go work for one the big guys for a couple years and learn the ropes.

Are you joking!!! I agree with you!!! I am just trying to get an INKLING of what the business is.....if I want to sell mortgages I'll go intern at EU if I want to go into Amazons  ill work for one  of the guys in Brooklyn who runs a big Amazon operation...yes

Though at least its public how the business runs.

I am not expecting and honestly, none of you are giving a Rolodex of contacts through at LEAST shed some light on how it works? Who are these people selling to.....also none of these guys are bringing on more partners.


I know its easy for people who are not go-getters to just sit back and reply to everything "do it your self" "no one will spoon feed you".

No offense but these are usually the people who don't even have the info to give.


Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 04:04:16 PM
Those people started off selling points, then transitioned to the next step. Here, one of OPs original 2 questions before deciding whether he should even join was whether it's not worth it to do as others are getting a bigger slice of the pie. And I don't think that's a smart way to approach business and life. Get in first, then make it better. Don't let others' successes get in the way of your own.

Feel free to differ.

My original primary Q was if this is Kosher.

Your point about not joining just on the basis of someone else is making more I may have implied - that was an accident.  Your point is very true.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 04:06:03 PM
Don't mean to be harsh. Sorry if that's how I came across. Just a bit of life advice. Use it if you will, discard it if you dare.

No Worries :) I like candid speech!

 I agree with some of your points but I feel they were written on an incorrect assumption of what I was trying to articulate.

I replied somewhere on this thread.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 04, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
No Worries :) I like candid speech!

 I agree with some of your points but I feel they were written on an incorrect assumption of what I was trying to articulate.

I replied somewhere on this thread.
Lol
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 04, 2018, 04:35:26 PM
I am not expecting and honestly, none of you are giving a Rolodex of contacts through at LEAST shed some light on how it works? Who are these people selling to.....also none of these guys are bringing on more partners.

Been answered for you already, only thing you can still ask for is a rolodex now.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2018, 04:47:25 PM
Quick question: can I safely order more than one of each item from guest Checkout in separate orders? If so, what should I not do to get banned?

I don't mean it in an obnoxious way, I am genuinely interested in knowing. PMs would be appreciated if not for the public.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 04:56:13 PM
Quick question: can I safely order more than one of each item from guest Checkout in separate orders? If so, what should I not do to get banned?

I don't mean it in an obnoxious way, I am genuinely interested in knowing. PMs would be appreciated if not for the public.
Are you asking about eBay? You might get it through, but prepare to be banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 04, 2018, 05:01:28 PM
Quick question: can I safely order more than one of each item from guest Checkout in separate orders? If so, what should I not do to get banned?

I don't mean it in an obnoxious way, I am genuinely interested in knowing. PMs would be appreciated if not for the public.
You'll probably be banned regardless but the amount of money I've made so far today makes it worth it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2018, 05:02:08 PM
Are you asking about eBay? You might get it through, but prepare to be banned.
Ah. Anyway to reduce likelihood? Send it to different addresses? Different IP address, CC?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 05:02:40 PM
Ah. Anyway to reduce likelihood? Send it to different addresses? Different IP address, CC?
IDK. IMO it's not worth it to play around with them.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:04:20 PM
IDK. IMO it's not worth it to play around with them.
Or get banned, and kill it with guest checkout
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2018, 05:09:12 PM
Or get banned, and kill it with guest checkout
With eBay, guest Checkout still works if you are banned?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:09:43 PM
With eBay, guest Checkout still works if you are banned?
You bet.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2018, 05:10:19 PM
You bet.
Wow. Didn't know that. Same everything? Or you switch up everything each time?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:11:11 PM
Wow. Didn't know that. Same everything? Or you switch up everything each time?
Add a + to the email. That's it.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 05:14:04 PM
Add a + to the email. That's it.
How do you pay? Regular PP account?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:14:19 PM
How do you pay? Regular PP account?
Or CC
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2018, 05:21:06 PM
Wow. Thanks! I won't have time for this time, but for next time...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 05:23:10 PM
Wow. Thanks!
+2 (That's all I'm willing to risk this time  ;) )
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 04, 2018, 05:35:30 PM
3 monitors baby

Triple billing is wrong   ;)

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 04, 2018, 05:46:23 PM
+2 (That's all I'm willing to risk this time  ;) )
Oy, if it's about risk that's a waste. I couldn't do as many as I would have liked because it's erev Shabbos, but risk isn't the issue here
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:47:29 PM
Oy, if it's about risk that's a waste. I couldn't do as many as I would have liked because it's erev Shabbos, but risk isn't the issue here
I only got one order
The amount of names of errors ebay came up with is amazing
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 04, 2018, 05:48:30 PM
Excludes gold so not worth my time.
There's a group for that too.

They buy gold coins from eBay.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 05:49:58 PM
If the eBay order got through, then it's ok? No cancellations afterwards?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 05:50:43 PM
If the eBay order got through, then it's ok? No cancellations afterwards?
Usually not. And often they ship even if they "cancel"
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 06:02:15 PM
Been answered for you already, the only thing you can still ask for is a Rolodex now.

I will take a Rolex ;) - I dont just need the contacts but someone to introduce me as well ;)


Someone made a reference about people who broker points and flights (a pretty transparent business model) and then they go on to ship these things abroad. - that is an explanation?

I think before we jump to me asking to be spoonfed maybe "what does abroad mean".

So when someone sells a mac or iPad it gets loaded onto a container ship to be sold to a Chinese mogul?

Would giving a little clarity be asking for the secret sauce?

example - Poeple who buy points book J fares for people at a discount from revenue price and keep the diff....simple clean and understandable.How are connections made, many times through traditional ads and web marketing - I can know all this even though I am not involved in the business...

Buying Groups - all seem to decide on the same type of deals?, and then have Chinese moguls abroad buying truckloads to put in local stores there???? What is the model? Where are they finding people.



Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 06:03:13 PM
There's a group for that too.

They buy gold coins from eBay.
There is a buyers group?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 04, 2018, 06:03:32 PM
Shabbat Shalom Guys!! I know this isnt in the Good Shabbas Group (please dont delete Mods ;) ;) )
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 06:14:06 PM
There is a buyers group?
You buy gold coins from Ebay for them, AKA MS 20k in a run
For more information PM @Dr moose :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 06:15:42 PM
You buy gold coins from Ebay for them, AKA MS 20k in a run
For more information PM @Dr moose :)
Whats the profit? Why canít they do it themselves?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 06:16:22 PM
Whats the profit? Why canít they do it themselves?
most of your points earned.
Ebay has limits.
(also they take a cut ::))
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2018, 06:18:12 PM
most of your points earned.
Ebay has limits.
(also they take a cut ::))
Only an idiot would take that deal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 04, 2018, 06:20:14 PM
Only an idiot would take that deal.
I personally don't do it.
But they usually take around 1% many MS methods have such a cost.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 04, 2018, 06:45:58 PM
Usually not. And often they ship even if they "cancel"
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 06, 2018, 12:12:30 AM
I will take a Rolex ;) - I dont just need the contacts but someone to introduce me as well ;)


Someone made a reference about people who broker points and flights (a pretty transparent business model) and then they go on to ship these things abroad. - that is an explanation?

I think before we jump to me asking to be spoonfed maybe "what does abroad mean".

So when someone sells a mac or iPad it gets loaded onto a container ship to be sold to a Chinese mogul?

Would giving a little clarity be asking for the secret sauce?

example - Poeple who buy points book J fares for people at a discount from revenue price and keep the diff....simple clean and understandable.How are connections made, many times through traditional ads and web marketing - I can know all this even though I am not involved in the business...

Buying Groups - all seem to decide on the same type of deals?, and then have Chinese moguls abroad buying truckloads to put in local stores there???? What is the model? Where are they finding people.

Why you making this so complicated?
These companies are wholesalers. Online is often better price then buying direct, or gives access to products in large quantities not available elsewhere. If itís a popular product thatís not available in parts of the world, then someone has to supply it, sometimes at nice markup. And they can sell to distributors, retailers, Amazon, government agencies,  etc.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 06, 2018, 01:28:43 AM
Why you making this so complicated?
These companies are wholesalers. Online is often better price then buying direct, or gives access to products in large quantities not available elsewhere. If itís a popular product thatís not available in parts of the world, then someone has to supply it, sometimes at nice markup. And they can sell to distributors, retailers, Amazon, government agencies,  etc.
It's not complicated. He asked and was answered multiple times. At this point it's just post padding.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 02:13:09 AM
It's not complicated. He asked and was answered multiple times. At this point, it's just post padding.
Not true no one gave a clear explanation or anything close to it....people here obviously don't know and that's ok.

Are you implying I am trying to get my post count up?

Its ok its obvious my original question brought up more interesting convos to you folks such as how not to get banned from BB or eBay and buying gold on eBay - so continue away on that convo....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 02:15:00 AM
Why you making this so complicated?
These companies are wholesalers. Online is often better price then buying direct, or gives access to products in large quantities not available elsewhere. If itís a popular product thatís not available in parts of the world, then someone has to supply it, sometimes at nice markup. And they can sell to distributors, retailers, Amazon, government agencies,  etc.

So online is cheaper than buying from Apple directly?

Further, online gives more access? What are you saying?

Are you speaking about broad economic principles?  If something is popular and a country wants it, someone has to supply it.......? What does that mean (in context of this convo- I am a MBA major, not the underlying principles)?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 06, 2018, 02:16:07 AM
I'm pretty sure this is the most frustrating conversation I've ever witnessed on DDF. 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 02:17:27 AM
I'm pretty sure this is the most frustrating conversation I've ever witnessed on DDF.
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 06, 2018, 02:18:01 AM
+1
I'm fairly certain that you're a large part of the problem.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 02:25:47 AM
I'm fairly certain that you're a large part of the problem.
Wow - so please say how? I as the OP (original poster) asked two simple questions looking to discuss the ethics and also the background of how the business is run.

1. Never really touched upon

2. People say, wholesalers, no one is really explaining on what actually is going on.

To build on 1 and 2 no legitime wholesaler or government buyer is legally purchasing a product without a clear understanding of its origin.

It seems people are making stuff up when they dont know.

I don't think people here really know so its fine - people should just stop telling OP's off that they want 'all the answers' in situations where they did their research and its obvious the person saying that has no clue what the answer is himself.

Listen, if you guys want to talk about other stuff so be it...but don't say I'm not 'chapping' or catching on and def. do not say that people here have given satisfactory answers.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 02:28:05 AM
Wow - so please say how? I as the OP (original poster) asked two simple questions looking to discuss the ethics and also the background of how the business is run.

1. Never really touched upon

2. People say, wholesalers, no one is really explaining on what actually is going on.

To build on 1 and 2 no legitime wholesaler or government buyer is legally purchasing a product without a clear understanding of its origin.

It seems people are making stuff up when they dont know.

I don't think people here really know so its fine - people should just stop telling OP's off that they want 'all the answers' in situations where they did their research and its obvious the person saying that has no clue what the answer is himself.

Listen, if you guys want to talk about other stuff so be it...but don't say I'm not 'chapping' or catching on and def. do not say that people here have given satisfactory answers.

Sorry if I came off a little harsh with above - didnt mean it to be so
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 06, 2018, 02:39:00 AM


Wow - so please say how? I as the OP (original poster) asked two simple questions looking to discuss the ethics and also the background of how the business is run.

1. Never really touched upon

2. People say, wholesalers, no one is really explaining on what actually is going on.

To build on 1 and 2 no legitime wholesaler or government buyer is legally purchasing a product without a clear understanding of its origin.

It seems people are making stuff up when they dont know.

I don't think people here really know so its fine - people should just stop telling OP's off that they want 'all the answers' in situations where they did their research and its obvious the person saying that has no clue what the answer is himself.

Listen, if you guys want to talk about other stuff so be it...but don't say I'm not 'chapping' or catching on and def. do not say that people here have given satisfactory answers.

Your first question was answered almost immediately.
Your second question initially seemed somewhat irrelevant. It then turned into the bizarre situation of your simultaneously being unsure you want to be involved in this business on even the lowest level, buying for groups, while also expecting that people would outline their entire business model for you so you can become their competition. I really have no idea why you expect that info to be shared. You keep perseverating on the same points but you've got what you're going to get. Any further info falls under the category of "those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know." And if I was running a buying group the last thing I would do is post any answers to your questions when you have clearly stated that your interest in getting that info is to enter the business yourself.
Title: Re: Buying Groups-Swiping
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 06, 2018, 07:50:40 AM
Is this kosher? Anyone familiar?
Both your original questions have been answered.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on May 06, 2018, 08:21:53 AM
Ok guys, I'll do it. I'll answer the questions clearly so that this can end.

1) No. It's illegal. You will almost certainly go to jail for violating a store's terms and conditions. Some people think a month in jail is worth a week in the Maldives or at least one shower on a airplane. It's basic risk-reward / cost-benefit analysis.

2) I'm gonna get in huge trouble for this, but I've already been removed from one buying group for inactivity, so I'm not risking that much. The buying groups use the power of large groups to obtain products at a lower cost which they then sell to other buyers at a higher cost. It's a very secretive concept called, "but low, sell high."

Please note, in certain industries which are kosher in some states and decidedly unkosher in most, it is very much not advised to "sell high". But to each their own.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 06, 2018, 08:35:20 AM
1) No. It's illegal. You will almost certainly go to jail for violating a store's terms and conditions.
Do you know if it would be a state or federal prison?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: CodeAdam10 on May 06, 2018, 09:31:37 AM
Do you know if it would be a state or federal prison?

Itís the M&P Prison.

They take away all your cards and everyday they force you to watch others collecting miles&points and redeeming them for awesome getaways. Then on your last day, right before they let you out ... they reset all your m&p balances to -1 and give back just one of your cards, with a revolving credit limit of $100. This is called the probation period.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 06, 2018, 09:32:38 AM
Itís the M&P Prison.

They take away all your cards and everyday they force you to watch others collecting miles&points and redeeming them for awesome getaways. Then on your last day, right before they let you out ... they reset all your m&p balances to -1 and give back just one of your cards, with a revolving credit limit of $100. This is called the probation period.
And you only earn cash back.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:41:29 AM
Ok guys, I'll do it. I'll answer the questions clearly so that this can end.

1) No. It's illegal. You will almost certainly go to jail for violating a store's terms and conditions. Some people think a month in jail is worth a week in the Maldives or at least one shower on a airplane. It's basic risk-reward / cost-benefit analysis.

2) I'm gonna get in huge trouble for this, but I've already been removed from one buying group for inactivity, so I'm not risking that much. The buying groups use the power of large groups to obtain products at a lower cost which they then sell to other buyers at a higher cost. It's a very secretive concept called, "but low, sell high."

Please note, in certain industries which are kosher in some states and decidedly unkosher in most, it is very much not advised to "sell high". But to each their own.
who knew these forums could be such a safe space ;) - glad you spent the time to write this piece of satire
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:41:56 AM
Thank You all for your replies
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:42:36 AM

Your first question was answered almost immediately.
Your second question initially seemed somewhat irrelevant. It then turned into the bizarre situation of your simultaneously being unsure you want to be involved in this business on even the lowest level, buying for groups, while also expecting that people would outline their entire business model for you so you can become their competition. I really have no idea why you expect that info to be shared. You keep perseverating on the same points but you've got what you're going to get. Any further info falls under the category of "those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know." And if I was running a buying group the last thing I would do is post any answers to your questions when you have clearly stated that your interest in getting that info is to enter the business yourself.
Thank You for the candid response
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:43:25 AM
Itís the M&P Prison.

They take away all your cards and everyday they force you to watch others collecting miles&points and redeeming them for awesome getaways. Then on your last day, right before they let you out ... they reset all your m&p balances to -1 and give back just one of your cards, with a revolving credit limit of $100. This is called the probation period.
I heard they reset it to -2
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:44:30 AM
Do you know if it would be a state or federal prison?
def. federal - unless the bestbuy ordering takes place only within statelines
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 06, 2018, 09:45:56 AM
who knew these forums could be such a safe space ;) - glad you spent the time to write this piece of satire



Thank You all for your replies



Thank You for the candid response



I heard they reset it to -2


def. federal - unless the bestbuy ordering takes place only within statelines


I was trying not to judge about the padding, but wow.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 06, 2018, 09:47:24 AM
I was trying not to judge about the padding, but wow.
This is about to get moved to JS now so don't worry.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 06, 2018, 10:02:24 AM
And you only earn cash back.

once you get enough points everything becomes about CB anyways...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 06, 2018, 10:15:18 AM










I was trying not to judge about the padding, but wow.
Says the only person here who thinks that post count matters
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 06, 2018, 10:25:45 AM

Based on what?
Your post count. What else?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 06, 2018, 11:59:55 AM
Your post count. What else?
Quoting a deleted post...noice
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 06, 2018, 12:09:36 PM
Quoting a deleted post...noice
Huh? ::)
How would I do that? Once it is deleted how would I quote it? Should I delete my post which you quoted and then complain that you quoted a deleted post?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 01:26:42 PM
First what JS?

second who here cares about post count?

best
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: sam2015 on May 06, 2018, 02:36:00 PM
First what JS?

second who here cares about post count?

best

Gevalt. You can't make this stuff up ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 06, 2018, 02:47:58 PM
This is about to get moved to JS now so don't worry.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 06, 2018, 02:54:33 PM
First what JS?

second who here cares about post count?

best
1) The last ten pages of this thread
2) people who turn a stickered PSA thread into a JS thread.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 06, 2018, 02:55:22 PM
He only lost 35 posts like that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: username on May 06, 2018, 03:28:59 PM
2) people who turn a stickered PSA thread into a JS thread.
Is this kosher? Anyone familiar?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 06, 2018, 04:23:46 PM
How would I do that?
You can recreate quotes.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 06, 2018, 04:47:50 PM
You can recreate quotes.
Of course, but especially in this case, snd considering that my post was about a minute after the one I quoted it is still a ridiculous statement.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Lou Bob on May 06, 2018, 04:49:04 PM
You can recreate quotes.
that's cheating
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakov116 on May 06, 2018, 05:53:03 PM
You can make up quotes.
Like this?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 06, 2018, 06:02:25 PM
More like this.  :P
MJ is GOAT!!!
Full Disclosure: EJB never said that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on May 06, 2018, 06:04:03 PM
More like this.  :PFull Disclosure: EJB never said that.
Lies . I did 20 years ago.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 06, 2018, 06:05:27 PM
Lies . I did 20 years ago.
LOL
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:50:31 PM
Gevalt. You can't make this stuff up ::)
there's a Human behind the screen you dont have to be obnoxious.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mrprez27 on May 06, 2018, 09:51:47 PM
Is this kosher? Anyone familiar?
Why make fun? Seriously?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 06, 2018, 09:52:42 PM
Please stop.
The greater DDF and your inner self.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 07, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
Huh? ::)
How would I do that? Once it is deleted how would I quote it? Should I delete my post which you quoted and then complain that you quoted a deleted post?
To clarify I was appreciating it... Not criticising.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:18:19 PM
I think my issue with buying groups is, do I want to be someone else's B**CH for a few thousand miles and maybe a few dollars ? i'll do it for family and friends but meh, these buying groups are making HUGE profits off the peshutey am and i'm nobody B**CH
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 03:19:26 PM
I think my issue with buying groups is, do I want to be someone else's B**CH for a few thousand miles and maybe a few dollars ? i'll do it for family and friends but meh, these buying groups are making HUGE profits off the peshutey am and i'm nobody B**CH
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:19:55 PM
How does a higher post count help you? Is there a way to monetize your DDF post count that I missed ?  ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 08, 2018, 03:21:20 PM
I think my issue with buying groups is, do I want to be someone else's B**CH for a few thousand miles and maybe a few dollars ? i'll do it for family and friends but meh, these buying groups are making HUGE profits off the peshutey am and i'm nobody B**CH
There are people making full time salaries by buying for groups
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:22:09 PM
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

NOPE, i'm serious. my neighbor and good friend works for one such company, i'll buy ipads for him as a favor, if I get a few thousand points and a few hundred dollars great. But i'm not buying junk for every swiping purpose for a few bucks
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 03:23:23 PM
NOPE, i'm serious. my neighbor and good friend works for one such company, i'll buy ipads for him as a favor, if I get a few thousand points and a few hundred dollars great. But i'm not buying junk for every swiping purpose for a few bucks
I hear you, I also hear the people making full salaries with this, as always, it's your choice.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:25:30 PM
There are people making full time salaries by buying for groups

I bet, bu you know how much the guys at the top make ?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 08, 2018, 03:26:20 PM
I bet, bu you know how much the guys at the top make ?
I know how much I make in my full time job and I assume the owner is making way more. What's it point?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:26:28 PM
I hear you, I also hear the people making full salaries with this, as always, it's your choice.

Sure, thats fine. but you are essentially someone's low paid employee
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 08, 2018, 03:26:47 PM
I bet, bu you know how much the guys at the top make ?
Let's tax the 1%!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 08, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
Sure, thats fine. but you are essentially someone's low paid employee
Push your pride aside, there is nothing wrong with the concept.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 03:29:19 PM
Sure, thats fine. but you are essentially someone's low paid employee
No, I'm a contractor getting paid based on the time and effort that I put in. If a deal is lucrative and worth my time, I do it, if not, I don't. It's money they I otherwise wouldn't have, I don't understand why it would bother you that the guy you sell to makes more, I'm doing it for my own profit, not to benefit some reseller.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 03:31:35 PM
Fine... BUT you're still someone else's B****H.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: beeweegee on May 08, 2018, 03:33:49 PM
Fine... BUT you're still someone else's B****H.
...as are many employees in basically every industry in the world.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 03:34:44 PM
Fine... BUT you're still someone else's B****H.
Yay!!!!! Thanks captain obvious. This is a free market, I sell to someone else who sells to someone else, and everyone makes money along the way, some more than others. I get that you have a massive chip on your shoulder but your idea of business and money is just really warped.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 08, 2018, 03:51:12 PM
I know how much I make in my full time job and I assume the owner is making way more. What's it point?

This.

Anyone who is not Bezos makes less than the other guy.

You work in a company, your boss makes more than you. You own your own company? Your clients make more than you.  In both case, by your definition, you are someone's b**ch.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Abebee on May 08, 2018, 04:58:39 PM
Fine... BUT you're still someone else's B****H.
Quick math, you are someones B***H and swipe $5000 on a card that gives you 1.5 on the dollar (freedom unlimited)
it take you 10 minutes to buy it, 2 minutes to sign for it and 20 minute to get it to him.
You spend 32 minutes and make 7,500 points valued at 1.4 that's $105 for a half hour worth of work.
My guess is most people on DDF (most) don't make $210 a hour.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 08, 2018, 05:08:25 PM
Ok. So would somebody please let me on how not to get orders cancelled from BB. Everything is getting cancelled recently.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Abebee on May 08, 2018, 05:11:59 PM
Ok. So would somebody please let me on how not to get orders cancelled from BB. Everything is getting cancelled recently.
New account, use new email and phone number. Use paypal and you can use a blocked credit card linked to your paypal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on May 08, 2018, 05:30:08 PM
New account, use new email and phone number. Use paypal and you can use a blocked credit card linked to your paypal.
Didn't help..... That helped for a while for a couple of orders a day, did the same, just without an account, used guest checkout. Last couple of months, anything sent to my address doesn't work. Tried recently to a new address with a new cc, name, telephone, guest checkout, different IP address, incognito. Helped for a week, every order took a day to move to the preparing stage, so was only able to make one order a day. Now that also gets cancelled after a day...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 06:14:29 PM
Quick math, you are someones B***H and swipe $5000 on a card that gives you 1.5 on the dollar (freedom unlimited)
it take you 10 minutes to buy it, 2 minutes to sign for it and 20 minute to get it to him.
You spend 32 minutes and make 7,500 points valued at 1.4 that's $105 for a half hour worth of work.
My guess is most people on DDF (most) don't make $210 a hour.

Quote
This.

Anyone who is not Bezos makes less than the other guy.

You work in a company, your boss makes more than you. You own your own company? Your clients make more than you.  In both case, by your definition, you are someone's b**ch.

Great math, flawed logic.

Few deals are 5k swipe in 10 min, nevermind the time wasted on cancelled orders etc.

This does not change the fact that it diminishes your capacity to become an adam gadol.. you will remain an adam katan.

I rather look at it as a nice easy way to get free points were relevant and i'll do as a favor to friend and family.

You could easily make $210 or $500 an hour if you actualize your potential in life.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 06:25:33 PM
This does not change the fact that it diminishes your capacity to become an adam gadol.. you will remain an adam katan.

You could easily make $210 or $500 an hour if you actualize your potential in life.
No offense to you personally (I don't even know you) but that's a load of BS.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 08, 2018, 06:25:48 PM
Fine... BUT you're still someone else's B****H.

Risk/reward + full time job. The guy paying millions for merchandise is taking a big risk if and when anything goes wrong. And heís also spending full time on it, whether itís finding and calling contacts to sell the merchandise, dealing with warehousing, employees, etc.

Why are you dripping with jealousy?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 08, 2018, 06:58:28 PM
Great math, flawed logic.

Few deals are 5k swipe in 10 min, nevermind the time wasted on cancelled orders etc.

This does not change the fact that it diminishes your capacity to become an adam gadol.. you will remain an adam katan.

I rather look at it as a nice easy way to get free points were relevant and i'll do as a favor to friend and family.

You could easily make $210 or $500 an hour if you actualize your potential in life.

Oh, I see now. You're willing to remain an adam katan, just as long as the reward is worth it.

I have a full-time job which keeps me pretty preoccupied (and I think most would agree I haven't squandered my time getting where I am), but I'm able to do this on the side where and make thousands per month for a couple hours per week.

Maybe that's chump change to you, maybe that few hours is keeping me from becoming an adam gadol, and/or maybe I'm just better at it than you.

Not sure I'd agree with any of those.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on May 08, 2018, 07:00:02 PM
Oh, I see now. You're willing to remain an adam katan, just as long as the reward is worth it.

I have a full-time job which keeps me pretty preoccupied (and I think most would agree I haven't squandered my time getting where I am), but I'm able to do this on the side where and make thousands per month for a couple hours per week.

Maybe that's chump change to you, maybe that few hours is keeping me from becoming an adam gadol, and/or maybe I'm just better at it than you.

Not sure I'd agree with any of those.

Also why limit yourself to 500$ an hour. Your firm definitely doesnít
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 08, 2018, 08:48:31 PM
I must say you guys are giving me a good laugh.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 09:01:31 PM
I am not jealous of any one.  Each according to their wishes.

I own my own business, I could churn all day, I could also waste time on DDF (and do) If you are happy churning as a full time job, go for it..  But you are wasting your life.. unless you have no potential.

I am an adam katan and daily people tell me that I am wasting my potential. I have no issue with people hunting down deals.. but you are, at the end of the day, a slave to someone else.

Its not even a job, its just a mindless gopher.

I certainly agree if there's a good churn, do it. But to slave at it, meh.

p.s. there is a DDF'er who is enormously successful, yet he churns like a schlepper, it's hilarious
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 08, 2018, 09:09:11 PM
Ironically I feel less like a slave when I choose to buy stuff from the buying groups. I choose what deals I want to work on or if I want to at all. Can't do that when you are an employee.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 08, 2018, 09:23:17 PM
Ironically I feel less like a slave when I choose to buy stuff from the buying groups. I choose what deals I want to work on or if I want to at all. Can't do that when you are an employee.

no, but if its a full time income yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Z56 on May 08, 2018, 10:04:29 PM
Oh, I see now. You're willing to remain an adam katan, just as long as the reward is worth it.

I have a full-time job which keeps me pretty preoccupied (and I think most would agree I haven't squandered my time getting where I am), but I'm able to do this on the side where and make thousands per month for a couple hours per week.

Maybe that's chump change to you, maybe that few hours is keeping me from becoming an adam gadol, and/or maybe I'm just better at it than you.

Not sure I'd agree with any of those.

Well said👌🏻
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: farmbochur on May 08, 2018, 11:18:23 PM
Your גדלות is a function of your earnings rate?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 08, 2018, 11:23:19 PM
no, but if its a full time income yes
Trust me, almost nobody is doing this as a full-time income. You may have had a good point if that were true but your premise is just wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: skyguy918 on May 08, 2018, 11:29:14 PM
I own my own business,...
... but you are, at the end of the day, a slave to someone else.
Did you always own your own business, or have you been an employee at some point. And when you were an employee, would you say you had a good boss/employer?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Z56 on May 08, 2018, 11:44:35 PM
Did you always own your own business, or have you been an employee at some point. And when you were an employee, would you say you had a good boss/employer?

Nice come back 🤙
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 12:42:11 AM
Did you always own your own business, or have you been an employee at some point. And when you were an employee, would you say you had a good boss/employer?

not since I was 17, I had OK bosses / employers. Maybe I just don't like working for others is why the churning annoys me.

Also I kNow people that do this, instead of pursuing much greater things, not simply in making money but in making the world a better place.

And certainly there are plenty who learn half day and churn half a day in Lakewood.

On the boost mobile iPhone 6 I was offered like 10$ above cost and then another group offered 40$? Or so, so the first guy upped his offer but I realized he was going to make 50$ each and I doing the work a lousy 10$
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 12:50:59 AM
Your גדלות is a function of your earnings rate?

No, it has nothing to do with money, though if someone can make money and put it to good use, certainly that's a good thing.

Everyone tells me to write and speak,  but I don't want to do it, so I'm killing my potential in life. That's my problem.

But any ways, I'm just personally annoyed, I know a great Talmud chacham that does this for some of his income and while we can argue that this is a positive thing to help people make ends meet, I feel it's like giving a healthy person a wheel chair and he has so much greater potential.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 09, 2018, 12:52:53 AM
On the boost mobile iPhone 6 I was offered like 10$ above cost and then another group offered 40$? Or so, so the first guy upped his offer but I realized he was going to make 50$ each and I doing the work a lousy 10$
What about all the work that went into him building his business up to the point where he could make $50 a phone?
Are you really that jealous of a guy that worked hard to build his business that you won't take the opportunity to make easy money? I really just don't understand your point here, if you really want to make the big money, why not open a buying group yourself? You're only harming yourself by "begrudging" that guy his $50 because it's more than the $10 he's offering you...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 01:48:27 AM
What about all the work that went into him building his business up to the point where he could make $50 a phone?
Are you really that jealous of a guy that worked hard to build his business that you won't take the opportunity to make easy money? I really just don't understand your point here, if you really want to make the big money, why not open a buying group yourself? You're only harming yourself by "begrudging" that guy his $50 because it's more than the $10 he's offering you...

this is why I hate internet discussions. You have assumed so much in your response, things farthest from the truth that is crazy.

The guy that offered me the small amount?  Worked for me for years, I taught him everything he knows.

I respect that line of business, I started my business 15 years ago. Personally this isn't for me and I moved away from that sector long ago anyways.

 I'll do it mostly as a favor, points are great and no one ever said a few bucks suck. But if you have a open order for a few thousand units and stand to make 40-50$ a pop and ask me to be your schlepper and make 10$ a unit so In the big picture you can make 40-50k for doing nothing... A big eff you very much is in order.

in the beginning I welcomed the churning opportunities, I still do. It's great for all of us and is 10000 times better than vanilla ;)

I dunno I just don't like doing someone else's work for a few dollars or free. Maybe it's just my personality. If it was something that came off as a favor I probably wouldn't mind but it just ends up feeling so much like "go buy 10 of this and 5 of that " and I'm just not in the mood to buy anything and I get annoying reminders it's like screw you!

Again it's probably just my independent personality, I would gladly help someone else earn a income if there was nothing in it for me.

Long before there was buying groups there was people buying the first ipads for others to wholesale :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 01:51:25 AM
And the amount the first iPad was wholesaled at was staggering!! It was well over 100$ of the retail cost iirc
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 09, 2018, 01:54:32 AM
Also I kNow people that do this, instead of pursuing much greater things, not simply in making money but in making the world a better place.

I'm sure most people have a few hours a day to burn, and can pay all the bills with absolutely no issue. Let's shed all sympathy for them and bring out the pitchforks and fix this great injustice. I think AG ES will take the case pro-bono.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 01:57:25 AM
Good for them. 'and if there are others that start this young etc or do it full time and don't pursue bigger things in life? 

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 09, 2018, 02:00:52 AM
Good for them. 'and if there are others that start this young etc or do it full time and don't pursue bigger things in life?
Honestly I've been tempted for years to drop my regular job and do this full time. I won't and can't because it's unreliable. But if I had, that would mean I have more time to spend with my family, more flexibility for them. Why would that be a bad thing? If someone is learning half a day and doing this half a day, I think that's great. Doing this is enabling them to stay in learning, without the opportunity to make money on the side they would have much less time to learn. I must be completely missing your point
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 02:12:07 AM
Honestly I've been tempted for years to drop my regular job and do this full time. I won't and can't because it's unreliable. But if I had, that would mean I have more time to spend with my family, more flexibility for them. Why would that be a bad thing? If someone is learning half a day and doing this half a day, I think that's great. Doing this is enabling them to stay in learning, without the opportunity to make money on the side they would have much less time to learn. I must be completely missing your point

To each their own, maybe I should churn all day, give up my apartment and car, live in hotels and travel the globe.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 09, 2018, 02:15:45 AM
To each their own, maybe I should churn all day, give up my apartment and car, live in hotels and travel the globe.
Or maybe you should churn all day, pay down your mortgage, give more tzedakah, and not have to work on erev yt and chol hamoed
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 02:23:59 AM
Or maybe you should churn all day, pay down your mortgage, give more tzedakah, and not have to work on erev yt and chol hamoed

There Is no possibility of me being able to respond to that without being bashed right and left, but come by my apartment and I'll give you the answer in person.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 09, 2018, 02:25:19 AM
this is why I hate internet discussions. You have assumed so much in your response, things farthest from the truth that is crazy.

The guy that offered me the small amount?  Worked for me for years, I taught him everything he knows.

I respect that line of business, I started my business 15 years ago. Personally this isn't for me and I moved away from that sector long ago anyways.

 I'll do it mostly as a favor, points are great and no one ever said a few bucks suck. But if you have a open order for a few thousand units and stand to make 40-50$ a pop and ask me to be your schlepper and make 10$ a unit so In the big picture you can make 40-50k for doing nothing... A big eff you very much is in order.

in the beginning I welcomed the churning opportunities, I still do. It's great for all of us and is 10000 times better than vanilla ;)

I dunno I just don't like doing someone else's work for a few dollars or free. Maybe it's just my personality. If it was something that came off as a favor I probably wouldn't mind but it just ends up feeling so much like "go buy 10 of this and 5 of that " and I'm just not in the mood to buy anything and I get annoying reminders it's like screw you!

Again it's probably just my independent personality, I would gladly help someone else earn a income if there was nothing in it for me.

Long before there was buying groups there was people buying the first ipads for others to wholesale :)
So you're upset that the guy was giving you a bad markup? Find a better buying group.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 09, 2018, 02:35:51 AM
There Is no possibility of me being able to respond to that without being bashed right and left, but come by my apartment and I'll give you the answer in person.
Feel free to PM since I'm unlikely to be in your neighborhood soon
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 04:59:29 AM
I take back what I said. I can't delete my posts but I stand corrected
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 09, 2018, 05:11:27 AM
I take back what I said. I can't delete my posts but I stand corrected
What changed your mind?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 09, 2018, 08:30:20 AM
 @chevron can you say what type of business you are in?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 09, 2018, 08:37:43 AM
@chevron

I've been buying for the groups for a few years now. I don't do it for the money, I really couldn't care about the commissions that they offer.

I only do it for the spend. Give me a macbook that I can buy for $1,000 and I'll be glad to buy 100 of them for you. It's a win-win for me. You get the products that you need to sell, and I get the points that I want.

I'm assuming most are in the same position. They got into it because they wanted the points. Yes, a little commission helps too.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 09, 2018, 08:38:24 AM
I take back what I said. I can't delete my posts but I stand corrected

now thats a sign of an adam gadol
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 09, 2018, 08:42:33 AM
now thats a sign of an adam gadol
I couldn't agree more. Kol hakavod @chevron
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 08:50:02 AM
What changed your mind?

I heard a different side of the story.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yitrap on May 09, 2018, 08:58:48 AM
I heard a different side of the story.
Can you share?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on May 09, 2018, 12:54:45 PM
now thats a sign of an adam gadol
+1. Impressed.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 01:21:29 PM
Can you share?

I realised that for some, it is a source of much needed secondary income. Rather than a game or such.

I do realize that, done right it represents a few hundred extra dollars a week, which can be crucial or at least helpful.

Sometimes I parlay my personal experience with things into the big picture, not because I think the world evolves around me, I just forget that each person is different.

For me, churning is often a distraction from my day job and inherently a waste of time.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 09, 2018, 01:22:53 PM
For me, churning is often a distraction from my day job and inherently a waste of time.
ROI
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on May 09, 2018, 01:25:09 PM
ROI
The calculus isnít so simple. Even if you spend exclusively nonworking hours on ďchurningĒ activities , it can impact your work quality, job security, advancement, etc. This can be extremely difficult to quantify.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: AJK on May 09, 2018, 01:25:57 PM
I realised that for some, it is a source of much needed secondary income. Rather than a game or such.

I do realize that, done right it represents a few hundred extra dollars a week, which can be crucial or at least helpful.

Sometimes I parlay my personal experience with things into the big picture, not because I think the world evolves around me, I just forget that each person is different.

For me, churning is often a distraction from my day job and inherently a waste of time.

Not to be difficult, but your main argument--i.e. that these people are wasting their time with buying groups because they could be, in your opinion, "doing something more productive or more effective or more [insert whatever]"--has not been addressed.

Why do you no longer think that?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 09, 2018, 01:27:09 PM
The calculus isnít so simple. Even if you spend exclusively nonworking hours on ďchurningĒ activities , it can impact your work quality, job security, advancement, etc. This can be extremely difficult to quantify.
If you don't know how to qualify them stop what you are doing and figure that out first.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 09, 2018, 01:41:02 PM
Because I am my own boss and prone to procasination and losing sight of the big picture. Churning can make me 100$ when I should be making the company 1000$ etc.

My mother terms this, quiting your day job to collect soda cans.

How about deals that were cancelled on you. Was that not a huge waste of time?

Also, as I said, in the past I was in this line of work, so helping make someone money and myself making a few bucks, is contrary to my mindset of years of making my company money etc. I should be selling the stuff for top dollar says my head. It's not because I'm greedy, it's what I did for 15 years.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 09, 2018, 02:03:28 PM
The calculus isnít so simple. Even if you spend exclusively nonworking hours on ďchurningĒ activities , it can impact your work quality, job security, advancement, etc. This can be extremely difficult to quantify.
Well said.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mountain Man on May 09, 2018, 02:07:22 PM
Because I am my own boss and prone to procasination and losing sight of the big picture. Churning can make me 100$ when I should be making the company 1000$ etc.

My mother terms this, quiting your day job to collect soda cans.

How about deals that were cancelled on you. Was that not a huge waste of time?

Also, as I said, in the past I was in this line of work, so helping make someone money and myself making a few bucks, is contrary to my mindset of years of making my company money etc. I should be selling the stuff for top dollar says my head. It's not because I'm greedy, it's what I did for 15 years.
So that's really the crux of your argument. I surely don't have 15 years experience. I was very happy getting ~13% on some Amazon purchases. If I could get that with real volume consistently then call me a gopher, I'd do it all day long until I'm financially independent.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 09, 2018, 08:04:34 PM

How about deals that were cancelled on you. Was that not a huge waste of time?


You never worked towards something in your business that didn't pan out? Its a learning experience and you move on.

I factor those into my time cheshbon. Some deals are more profitable because of less cancelations while others have more cancellations and I will avoid them. Over time you learn what generally works and what does not. I still get cancelations however they are not as frequent and therefore I tend to waste less time on them.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 10, 2018, 02:10:52 PM
I wish people would share techniques that help with Best Buy. I've tried, but it seriously seems tougher than plain ol' churning.. which is crazy
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chaimmayer on May 10, 2018, 06:18:37 PM
What do people do with their payments?
deposit the check in their own bank account?
use the check to pay their cc (a bad idea from what I understand)?
Deposit cash in their bank account?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 10, 2018, 06:19:21 PM
What do people do with their payments?
deposit the check in their own bank account?
use the check to pay their cc (a bad idea from what I understand)?
Deposit cash in their bank account?
Business acct. Deposit checks there then use that acct to pay off cc
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: sharkman on May 10, 2018, 07:28:18 PM
What do people do with their payments?
deposit the check in their own bank account?
use the check to pay their cc (a bad idea from what I understand)?
Deposit cash in their bank account?

use the check to pay their cc (a bad idea from what I understand)? Y is that a bad idea?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on May 10, 2018, 08:28:44 PM
use the check to pay their cc (a bad idea from what I understand)? Y is that a bad idea?
There are reports of people getting they're accounts shut down for doing this
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yzj on May 10, 2018, 09:05:09 PM
Mods, how about splitting this into  a thread titled Buying Groups and a wiki?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 10, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Mods, how about splitting this into  a thread titled Buying Groups and a wiki?
Many such threads have been started, and they were always merged here, just that as much as you discuss it you should remember the PSA.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: regular on May 11, 2018, 12:37:27 PM
There are reports of people getting they're accounts shut down for doing this
Source? I believe the last time someone reported this it ended up being he was shut down for a diffrent reason. Cmiiw
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 11, 2018, 12:39:20 PM
Definitely such reports.
I even know someone who had them admit that was the reason even tho the letter had the regular balances excuse.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: coralsnake on May 11, 2018, 01:07:29 PM
Source? I believe the last time someone reported this it ended up being he was shut down for a diffrent reason. Cmiiw
Wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 13, 2018, 04:25:16 PM
Source? I believe the last time someone reported this it ended up being he was shut down for a diffrent reason. Cmiiw
Happened to 2 of my friends last year
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: joe on May 13, 2018, 11:15:55 PM
Can anyone recommend a good buying group to join? TIA
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on May 14, 2018, 02:45:17 AM
Can anyone recommend a good buying group to join? TIA
USA
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 14, 2018, 07:06:16 AM
Happened to 2 of my friends last year
Which is worse to pay with a 3rd party check, Chase or Amex?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ib3 on May 14, 2018, 12:14:57 PM
USA
Any contact info? High do I sign up
Tia
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ckmk47 on May 14, 2018, 12:28:11 PM
Which is worse to pay with a 3rd party check, Chase or Amex?
I don't have a direct answer, but if you also bank at Chase, don't piss where you eat.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 14, 2018, 02:32:47 PM
To clarify, some here are saying it is an issue to deposit a check at Chase and then pay my Amex bill within a day or two from my Chase account?

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on May 14, 2018, 02:51:25 PM
To clarify, some here are saying it is an issue to deposit a check at Chase and then pay my Amex bill within a day or two from my Chase account?
No, what people are reporting as a problem is having the check made out directly to the credit card, not depositing it into their bank.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 14, 2018, 03:01:58 PM
No, what people are reporting as a problem is having the check made out directly to the credit card, not depositing it into their bank.
Ahhh, but what is the issue in depositing into my bank. I spend $100, I deposit $100..? Does bank care that funds are going in and out quickly?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 14, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
Ahhh, but what is the issue in depositing into my bank. I spend $100, I deposit $100..? Does bank care that funds are going in and out quickly?
some people have issues because it has to make sense with the income they report
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 15, 2018, 10:44:04 AM
What is the issue with Chase?  'if I have a check made out to me and  instead of depositing it in my bank I just use it to pay cc in branch, is that an issue?  Or is it a issue if check made out to cash / check I dunno.

What if I have cash, can I pay cc with it or need to deposit it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 16, 2018, 07:34:28 AM
What is the issue with Chase?  'if I have a check made out to me and  instead of depositing it in my bank I just use it to pay cc in branch, is that an issue? 
Will they allow this?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 16, 2018, 09:12:56 AM
Will they allow this?
yes sure
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 17, 2018, 12:42:10 AM
So what was getting accounts closed??
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ad120 on May 17, 2018, 01:01:42 AM
Any contact info? High do I sign up
Tia
I definitely do not recommend them. They will make you go back and price match items if the price is lowered the next week.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: lubaby on May 17, 2018, 08:28:54 AM
I definitely do not recommend them. They will make you go back and price match items if the price is lowered the next week.
Is that clear in the initial agreement / T&C they operate under?

Otherwise thatís not okay, you should be at liberty to choose to do that yourself (and make extra monies thereby), not be forced to do it otherwise you donít get fully reimbursed for your cost.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 17, 2018, 08:50:34 AM
I definitely do not recommend them. They will make you go back and price match items if the price is lowered the next week.
Been with them for about a year, never had that. In fact, they have told me about a price change and I have gotten to keep the refund.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 17, 2018, 09:12:27 AM
Been with them for about a year, never had that. In fact, they have told me about a price change and I have gotten to keep the refund.

They have done that. Have not in a while.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 17, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
They have done that. Have not in a while.
Wow, how did they clawback the funds
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 17, 2018, 09:30:05 AM
I definitely do not recommend them. They will make you go back and price match items if the price is lowered the next week.
thats absolutely baloney. i have been with them for a long time and that never happened. if it drops then you get to keep the difference. if anyone wants a link to sign up with them feel free to pm me
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 17, 2018, 10:12:29 AM
thats absolutely baloney. i have been with them for a long time and that never happened. if it drops then you get to keep the difference. if anyone wants a link to sign up with them feel free to pm me

Except they did
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 17, 2018, 12:27:14 PM
Except they did
Anyone from USA here to respond?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chinagel on May 17, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
Except they did
+1, though they might not have done it recently.
I have found their communication to be poor when i have had an issue.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 17, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
+1, though they might not have done it recently.
I have found their communication to be poor when i have had an issue.
I find them to be incredibly responsive. I dont think they pay great commissions but that is my choice. I can always find a group. Pickups are mostly on time and checks always come within 48 hours.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 17, 2018, 01:49:00 PM
I have found their communication to be poor when i have had an issue.
i think they have an overload of incoming stuff but not enough workers causing this
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 17, 2018, 01:58:28 PM
+1, though they might not have done it recently.
I have found their communication to be poor when i have had an issue.
I've found the opposite. Their service is terrific, one of their strongest points.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: joe on May 17, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
I definitely do not recommend them. They will make you go back and price match items if the price is lowered the next week.

Do you have anyone better?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on May 17, 2018, 04:17:29 PM
I've found the opposite. Their service is terrific, one of their strongest points.

You would get terrific service from every group
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on May 17, 2018, 04:27:12 PM
You would get terrific service from every group
Shhh.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: cholent on May 17, 2018, 04:46:36 PM
You would get terrific service from every group
It's because I'm so naturally charming
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: regular on May 17, 2018, 05:15:57 PM
I never got great service from them and was not at all impressed. I'm happy i stopped ordering for them. Never had a issue with other groups
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 17, 2018, 05:38:40 PM
I never got great service from them and was not at all impressed. I'm happy i stopped ordering for them. Never had a issue with other groups
Who's better?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: regular on May 17, 2018, 05:42:08 PM
Who's better?
Probably anyone
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chinagel on May 17, 2018, 06:05:12 PM
Who's better?
onyx/mark mann
mysbuyinggroup.com
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on May 17, 2018, 06:10:14 PM
So what was getting accounts closed??

anyone?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on May 17, 2018, 06:12:46 PM
onyx/mark mann
mysbuyinggroup.com
good commissions? or none really?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhaller14 on May 17, 2018, 06:39:57 PM
thats absolutely baloney. i have been with them for a long time and that never happened. if it drops then you get to keep the difference. if anyone wants a link to sign up with them feel free to pm me
-1000 had a few times that they told me to price match after I ordered and wouldn't let me keep but onyx let me keep every time
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 17, 2018, 06:53:38 PM
USA Buying Group is by far the biggest and has the most capital. Never have they asked you to hold a check like Onyx or other groups.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 17, 2018, 07:07:44 PM
Anyone from USA here to respond?
At least plenty of haters here.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhaller14 on May 17, 2018, 07:11:06 PM
USA Buying Group is by far the biggest and has the most capital. Never have they asked you to hold a check like Onyx or other groups.
What's that got to do with customer service? I would rather wait 2 days to cash a check then get terrible cs...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on May 17, 2018, 07:11:12 PM
You would get terrific service from every group
+1 . im involved in 3 different buying groups. spent well over 100k in the last year nothing but the best experience ( besides for the sometimes shabby commision)but i will say also that im not involved with USA
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 17, 2018, 07:14:32 PM
What's that got to do with customer service? I would rather wait 2 days to cash a check then get terrible cs...
Personal preference I guess.

I would rather have my money right away, less risk that way.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 17, 2018, 07:16:49 PM
I would rather have my money right away, less risk that way.
+1
Show me the money!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on May 17, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
Personal preference I guess.

I would rather have my money right away, less risk that way.
i've always gotten a check same day
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 17, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
Which is worse to pay with a 3rd party check, Chase or Amex?
Happened to them at Amex, but I've heard Chase can be even worse.. 1 of them eventually got through his FR
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 17, 2018, 07:40:51 PM
I've found the opposite. Their service is terrific, one of their strongest points.
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on May 17, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
I've had great experiences with USA as well as 2 other groups
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on May 17, 2018, 07:51:31 PM
USA Buying Group is by far the biggest and has the most capital. Never have they asked you to hold a check like Onyx or other groups.
Never had  a request by onyx/MYS to hold up on cashing a check. I always get paid right away by the pickup driver and they have a really simple and organized new website and makes keeping track or order history and payments a breeze. Driver actually scans in the items in my home and in my account it shows right away which pickup had which check tied to it. Those of you who do this for buying groups know how helpful that is.

Money does come right away and I have swiped plenty for them. Not sure what these other folks are talking about...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ad120 on May 17, 2018, 07:53:36 PM
Bgsales100@gmail.com
5 Towns Area
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yankel1234554321 on May 17, 2018, 09:21:51 PM
I'm a very good friend of the owner of Mys Buying group and I created a new account on the chance Ddf doesn't like this post I'm sorry for the long post as well just wanted to be clear. I would just like to jump in and just say few points I'm not here to promote there group just settle some points that have come up about the group and others as I think any negative comments about MYS is of a buyer that hasn't bought for it recently.

They provide checks at all of there drop off locations and they as well provide pickups from every persons house with a check on the spot no check is post dated. They as well have a great customer service and if any issues occur they are resolved quick.

They b"h have a very big group and growing daily they have created a amazing portal to help the buyers as well as speed up the Delaware process. For example someone had his package delivered to them today and was able to request a check within minutes I don't think any other group out there has that I could be wrong. You can check it out at www.mysbuyinggroup.com

Ill respond to one last comment about how other groups make you price adjust if a item drops which is true and I'm happy to say that MYS has never made anyone do that they honor prices they post. They are all for buyers making money there are many instances were a deal goes bad and they lose which they are fine with as long as it keep their buyers satisfied and that is the main thing.

With that have a great day every one and hope I was able to shed some light on current topic and if there was ever a buyer who feels like they were wronged by them reach out tell them about it as all companies would like to know were they are not great in not just Mys any group.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 17, 2018, 09:27:50 PM
Thanks for the info but it would be more creditable if you used your real username.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on May 17, 2018, 09:45:13 PM
Thanks for the info but it would be more creditable if you used your real username.
at least give us a hint who you really are
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on May 17, 2018, 10:30:35 PM
I think i may have figured out who it is.... :)
ETA: I was wrong, not who I thought.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 17, 2018, 10:47:55 PM
Happened to them at Amex, but I've heard Chase can be even worse.. 1 of them eventually got through his FR
Thanks.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Fredb on May 17, 2018, 11:16:36 PM
Totally not true, i have been buying with MYS buying group for a while now, and they will always match the price that they listed on the blast, and you can always check the deals on their portal, they will respond to you all hours of the day and night, via text, whats app, email and messenger on their portal, it has been a great way of making extra point and money. 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 17, 2018, 11:22:13 PM
Totally not true, i have been buying with MYS buying group for a while now, and they will always match the price that they listed on the blast, and you can always check the deals on their portal, they will respond to you all hours of the day and night, via text, whats app, email and messenger on their portal, it has been a great way of making extra point and money.
...and you just made a username just for this post? You guys are doing more harm than good.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 17, 2018, 11:23:50 PM
...and you just made a username just for this post? You guys are doing more harm than good.
+1 and I have a feeling this thread will get deleted
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yuneeq on May 17, 2018, 11:25:56 PM
...and you just made a username just for this post? You guys are doing more harm than good.

I am John Doe and I approve this message
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yankel1234554321 on May 18, 2018, 01:25:06 AM
...and you just made a username just for this post? You guys are doing more harm than good.

I am not sure who that guy is but its not me that would just be silly don't you think.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 18, 2018, 08:20:07 AM
I am not sure who that guy is but its not me that would just be silly don't you think.
what you did in your first post was silly. Be a man and donít be scared
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on May 18, 2018, 09:15:14 AM
what you did in your first post was silly. Be a man and donít be scared
This
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: regular on May 18, 2018, 10:01:28 AM
USA Buying Group is by far the biggest and has the most capital. Never have they asked you to hold a check like Onyx or other groups.
A. Around holiday times USA had a program where they'll spend for you on your cc and only pay you right before your due date.

B. IME USA had the longest wait times from when items we're delivered till you got the check. (My experience was holiday season I stopped ordering for them after that)

C. Having to hold on to a check is no big deal since no groups didn't let you use before your due date. Waiting to get a check is much more annoying
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on May 18, 2018, 10:45:58 AM
what a troll

Totally not true, i have been buying with MYS buying group for a while now, and they will always match the price that they listed on the blast, and you can always check the deals on their portal, they will respond to you all hours of the day and night, via text, whats app, email and messenger on their portal, it has been a great way of making extra point and money.

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=92741.msg1933491#msg1933491
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on May 18, 2018, 11:04:47 AM
A. Around holiday times USA had a program where they'll spend for you on your cc and only pay you right before your due date.

B. IME USA had the longest wait times from when items we're delivered till you got the check. (My experience was holiday season I stopped ordering for them after that)

C. Having to hold on to a check is no big deal since no groups didn't let you use before your due date. Waiting to get a check is much more annoying
That is different. You're not buying for them in that situation. You're going in knowing that they will pay you only once your credit card is due.

I only ship to myself and drop it off at their warehouse. As such, I cannot comment on the time to get paid on items shipped out of state.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Miami on May 18, 2018, 01:46:38 PM
i have been buying for buying groups for the last year and find MYS/ONYX to be the best. They give a check on the spot for the full amount. they do pickups as well as dropoffs all over the tri-state area.

if anyone would like more info you can feel free to pm me
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 18, 2018, 01:47:57 PM
All these new users who suddenly need to defend certain buying groups. Wow, they are coming out of the woodwork!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 18, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
All these new users who suddenly need to defend certain buying groups. Wow, they are coming out of the woodwork!
Sure makes you wonder.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Lou Bob on May 18, 2018, 04:46:54 PM
I bought for both USA and MYS.
Have not had any issues with either.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: rollingstone on May 18, 2018, 05:02:25 PM
i have been buying for buying groups for the last year and find MYS/ONYX to be the best. They give a check on the spot for the full amount. they do pickups as well as dropoffs all over the tri-state area.

if anyone would like more info you can feel free to pm me
Are you employed by them, or just buy from them?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Coinguy on May 22, 2018, 07:18:51 PM
A little perspective from the other end of the buying groups. Iíve had MYS/ONYX and USA (among some of the other ones)buy Coins for me. From what I saw theyíre typically very devoted to the people who buy for them. On some of the Coins with large swipes theyíve done it for me for a very small profit margin simply to give the buyers a good swipe. It seems to be a very competitive space with significant risks involved. Props to them for keeping at it.

Although if anyone wants to do large swipes.... Iíve got a coin group ;)

A little shameless promotion there.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 22, 2018, 07:21:04 PM
Although if anyone wants to do large swipes.... Iíve got a coin group ;)

A little shameless promotion there.
and those swipes are for free or we lose out on them?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on May 22, 2018, 07:25:29 PM
I wouldnít trust a monsey group
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 22, 2018, 07:37:34 PM
I wouldnít trust a monsey group
why not?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 22, 2018, 07:39:22 PM
why not?
Because that cant even spell money right.  :P
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ben89 on May 22, 2018, 07:41:36 PM
Because that cant even spell money right.  :P
Iím missing something
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 22, 2018, 07:44:00 PM
Iím missing something
Bad joke.  :-[
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Lou Bob on May 22, 2018, 08:04:35 PM
Bad joke.  :-[
good joke
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on May 22, 2018, 08:27:09 PM
Because that cant even spell money right.  :P
Jokes about spelling should be spelled right. ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Lou Bob on May 22, 2018, 08:41:31 PM
Jokes about spelling should be spelled right. ::)
no. Still good joke
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on May 22, 2018, 08:44:42 PM
Because that cant even spell money right. 
When I was growing up one of the signs going into Monsey had the s erased.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 22, 2018, 08:52:09 PM
Jokes about spelling should be spelled right. ::)
Blame autocorrect and fat fingers.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hamavin on May 31, 2018, 11:27:52 PM
Anyone in lakewood has a buying group for buying gold coins from ebay? pls pm
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on June 06, 2018, 05:40:21 PM
Another HUGE day! Everyone busy ordering?
Title: Buying Groups
Post by: avadah on June 16, 2018, 06:08:38 PM
Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: dovil on June 16, 2018, 07:44:53 PM
what was featured about them exactly i do have much experiance with usa buying group
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 16, 2018, 09:58:18 PM


Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?

Top of the line.
I have plenty of experience with them see  this thread (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.990) for information on the idea of it, and some good reviews of them as well.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Iz on June 16, 2018, 10:03:00 PM
Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?
Can you post the article/link?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 16, 2018, 10:08:34 PM
Can you post the article/link?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/ef2e7b29119b5880ebf3ba1fe7550fa7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/517cab18fd9f0a7e7c710e375ec2bdc5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/7e6ffa948c4b432abdbb727d9b505599.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180617/c5ff850176dbd1f2292a0e534656b82b.jpg)

Join at mysbuyinggroup.com (http://mysbuyinggroup.com).
Make sure to put in referred by "davidrotts" ::)
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Yaalili on June 16, 2018, 10:12:52 PM
Top of the line.
I have plenty of experience with them see  this thread (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.990) for information on the idea of it, and some good reviews of them as well.

Would recommend them too.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Iz on June 16, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: chinagel on June 16, 2018, 11:19:29 PM
Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?
def. recommend
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Yikes2179 on June 16, 2018, 11:30:48 PM
def. recommend
+1
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: TheSlightEdge on June 16, 2018, 11:48:58 PM
Is using tax-free codes legal for the group?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 16, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
Is using tax-free codes legal for the group?
Yes, if you sell to them you are a reseller
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: TheSlightEdge on June 16, 2018, 11:56:30 PM
Yes, if you sell to them you are a reseller

Got it, makes sense. Thanks.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 12:02:43 AM
Yes, if you sell to them you are a reseller
Are you an employee of the company?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 12:09:36 AM
Are you an employee of the company?
No I am not, but I deal with them plenty now.
(I also deal with their competitors, and have good reviews for some of them as well.)
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 12:11:02 AM
No I am not, but I deal with them plenty now.
Then whos tax exempt number are you using?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 12:16:35 AM
Then whos tax exempt number are you using?
(I didn't understand the question at first, I thought you assumed I worked for them since I'm backing them... )
You are using the company's tax exempt code, I assume you technically work for them if you are ordering for them.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 12:19:37 AM
You are using the company's tax exempt code, I assume you technically work for them if you are ordering for them.
No you are not working for them. Are you a licensed reseller with a resale certificate?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: mmgfarb on June 17, 2018, 02:01:36 AM
No you are not working for them. Are you a licensed reseller with a resale certificate?
You don't actually need that to get a BB tax exempt code, just the name of your business and the reason for being tax exempt.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 05:26:52 AM
You don't actually need that to get a BB tax exempt code, just the name of your business and the reason for being tax exempt.
Understand but the question was using another businesses tax exempt number. So you have a tax exempt number for your business? Does each person need their own reselling business and tax exempt number?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Markmann20 on June 17, 2018, 09:21:01 AM
Understand but the question was using another businesses tax exempt number. So you have a tax exempt number for your business? Does each person need their own reselling business and tax exempt number?

The reason buyers on the buying group are able to and allowed to use the tax codes is cause the item is suppose to come to that buying group and then be used for resell which the taxes will be paid for. The buying group business is 100% legal nothing shady
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: mmgfarb on June 17, 2018, 09:27:38 AM
Understand but the question was using another businesses tax exempt number. So you have a tax exempt number for your business? Does each person need their own reselling business and tax exempt number?
I think that, since the merchandise is going directly to the business, you don't need a personal tax ID number. If you were acting as a business that was then reselling it to them you might need one but that's not what's really going on.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: tzifanya54 on June 17, 2018, 09:34:49 AM
I think that, since the merchandise is going directly to the business, you don't need a personal tax ID number. If you were acting as a business that was then reselling it to them you might need one but that's not what's really going on.
Not so simple especially since many will be part of several groups and will sell to the highest bidder so to speak. I personally use my own tax ID when doing these things.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
The reason buyers on the buying group are able to and allowed to use the tax codes is cause the item is suppose to come to that buying group and then be used for resell which the taxes will be paid for. The buying group business is 100% legal nothing shady
I would be careful making a statement like this. Are you aware BB requires each induvial to have their own tax exempt certificate/card? At the very least you are violating their policy and both sides might be committing fraud without even realizing it.

PSA: Don't ask your LOR but a qualified CPA. Otherwise one day you might hear Bubba asking you to pick up the soap.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 10:58:22 AM
The buying group business is 100% legal nothing shady
Wow!
 I'm actually shocked they "featured" themselves in a newspaper.
Oh well...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 11:01:34 AM
I would be careful making a statement like this. Are you aware BB requires each induvial to have their own tax exempt certificate/card? At the very least you are violating their policy and both sides might be committing fraud without even realizing it.

PSA: Don't ask your LOR but a qualified CPA. Otherwise one day you might hear Bubba asking you to pick up the soap.  :)
If this is not fraud on a grand scale I don't know what is.. And I'm not referring to only the sales tax issue.
The whole entire concept. But some people don't see the forest...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:05:33 AM
If this is not fraud on a grand scale I don't know what is.. And I'm not referring to only the sales tax issue.
The whole entire concept. But some people don't see the forest...
Not sure I am following. Were does fraud come in with buying and reselling?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhaller14 on June 17, 2018, 11:07:32 AM
I would be careful making a statement like this. Are you aware BB requires each induvial to have their own tax exempt certificate/card? At the very least you are violating their policy and both sides might be committing fraud without even realizing it.
What would the issue be?! You are legitimately buying for them with their tax ID?! Not for yourself for them and they give you commission which means they pay you... and  usually when someone pays you its because  technically you work for them......
How is it different then using a schools tax exempt code to buy something for the school?!? Your not keeping the stuff, your giving it to the ones whose code it is
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhaller14 on June 17, 2018, 11:08:34 AM
Not sure I am following. Were does fraud come in with buying and reselling?
Haters gonna hate...... :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 11:11:29 AM
Not sure I am following. Were does fraud come in with buying and reselling?
They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer,but you gotta be really naive if you think no laws are being broken or bent
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
What would the issue be?! You are legitimately buying for them with their tax ID?!
You are not an employee of the company. If you are then that is another whole can of worms.

Any CPA's want to chime in?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:18:46 AM
They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer,but you gotta be really naive if you think no laws are being broken or bent
Ouch!!! BB employees/management are well aware of what is going on. They look the other way to get great numbers.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yhaller14 on June 17, 2018, 11:20:12 AM


You are not an employee of the company.

Volunteering..... doing it to help out are fellow Jews
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 11:22:26 AM
Ouch!!! BB employees/management are well aware of what is going on. They look the other way to get great numbers.
There is someone at bb who defined the max per customer for a reason. The fact that a sales team rewarded on volume, looks the other way does not make it any better..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:23:53 AM

Volunteering..... doing it to help out are fellow Jews
I applaud your intentions. The problem is you could be messing up big time without realizing it. This is just a PSA to CYA.
Maybe a buying group owner will chime in and say it is not violating anything but don't hold your breath.  ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on June 17, 2018, 11:24:40 AM
There is someone at bb who defined the max per customer for a reason. The fact that a sales team rewarded on volume, looks the other way does not make it any better..

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bestbuy/comments/8r5d7b/these_dot_coms_are_getting_crazy/

All you need is a couple of employees acknowledging they see the massive orders and continue to ship them out and it would be impossible to prosecute. Who is the damaged party here?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:24:58 AM
There is someone at bb who defined the max per customer for a reason. The fact that a sales team rewarded on volume, looks the other way does not make it any better..
Plausible deniability.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:26:32 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bestbuy/comments/8r5d7b/these_dot_coms_are_getting_crazy/

All you need is a couple of employees acknowledging they see the massive orders and continue to ship them out and it would be impossible to prosecute. Who is the damaged party here?
BB
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 11:31:23 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bestbuy/comments/8r5d7b/these_dot_coms_are_getting_crazy/

All you need is a couple of employees acknowledging they see the massive orders and continue to ship them out and it would be impossible to prosecute. Who is the damaged party here?
Inal, and you are merely presenting a possible defense of a crime.

The damaged party is obviously bb and it's shareholders.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: hide4 on June 17, 2018, 12:36:15 PM
They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer,but you gotta be really naive if you think no laws are being broken or bent
Can't all the above be said about buying and selling miles? And for some reason it's still not illegal.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avadah on June 17, 2018, 05:10:33 PM
How can i  learn the basics about what these buying groups are all about? MYS doesn't give you any info without signing up.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Iz on June 17, 2018, 05:19:05 PM
How can i  learn the basics about what these buying groups are all about? MYS doesn't give you any info without signing up.
What do you want to know? It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: myi on June 17, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
How can i  learn the basics about what these buying groups are all about? MYS doesn't give you any info without signing up.
Here You go.. watch this video.

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: New Yorker on June 17, 2018, 08:52:38 PM
What's the average margin people make on these groups after counting all credit card points, commission, cashback, etc. Is 10% realistic? too little?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 08:54:23 PM
Too much
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 10:17:53 PM
What's the avg time to get banned from bb?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 10:22:33 PM
What's the avg time to get banned from bb?
1 order if you play it wrong, a lot longer if you play it right
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on June 17, 2018, 10:33:56 PM
1 order if you play it wrong, a lot longer if you play it right
I'm having a hard time with them recently. Used to get through 3-5 orders a day. Now I'm lucky if I can have one good day in a few months....So far, all the advice I got didn't help.... :(
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 10:41:07 PM
I'm having a hard time with them recently. Used to get through 3-5 orders a day. Now I'm lucky if I can have one good day in a few months....So far, all the advice I got didn't help.... :(
The only thing they ban IME is CCs
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 10:48:18 PM
1 order if you play it wrong, a lot longer if you play it right
Due they ban you for reselling?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 10:49:41 PM
Due they ban you for reselling?
Well thats what they are banning for, either that or going over limits. Regardless they do over TE cards for resellers.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 10:52:34 PM
Well thats what they are banning for, either that or going over limits. Regardless they do over TE cards for resellers.
So you get banned for reselling and are using another companies resale certificate?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 10:53:27 PM
So you get banned for reselling and are using another companies resale certificate?
Uh, no. You get banned for reselling regardless of what you use, I use my own yet still have cards banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on June 17, 2018, 10:59:51 PM
The only thing they ban IME is CCs
Got new CCs. New "name", "address", "telephone", +1 Gmail, with brand new account or without an account, incognito, still no go.... There must be something else. Not IP address, since I tried it from the other side of the US....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:00:13 PM
Uh, no. You get banned for reselling regardless of what you use, I use my own yet still have cards banned.
I am glad you have your own certificate. I hate to see you when I visit Bubba.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 17, 2018, 11:01:16 PM
There must be something else. Not IP address, since I tried it from the other side of the US....
What VPN are you using? Many VPN IP's are banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 11:02:45 PM
Got new CCs. New "name", "address", "telephone", +1 Gmail, with brand new account or without an account, incognito, still no go.... There must be something else. Not IP address, since I tried it from the other side of the US....
You have to build new accounts with small/easy items, the PS4s now seem to be just that.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on June 17, 2018, 11:10:32 PM
What VPN are you using? Many VPN IP's are banned.
I was actually there for business ;)...

You have to build new accounts with small/easy items, the PS4s now seem to be just that.
Thanks! That's probably what it is. Can't think of anything else. Should I try more than one at a time, or not worth it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 11:12:17 PM
I was actually there for business ;)...
Thanks! That's probably what it is. Can't think of anything else. Should I try more than one at a time, or not worth it?
Always start slow, always! Besides the limit is one, I have 1 account I just revived with that (didn't work for others) I order 4 single PS4s, now I feel it's a solid account.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on June 17, 2018, 11:13:45 PM
Thanks again!! Hopefully, it will actually work this time!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 11:15:01 PM
Thanks again!! Hopefully, it will actually work this time!
Make sure to credit me when you bring in boatloads to the group ::)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on June 17, 2018, 11:22:15 PM
Make sure to credit me when you bring in boatloads to the group ::)
I'll make sure DW knows. :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 11:25:33 PM
I'll make sure DW knows. :)
Hmm who's that?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2018, 11:32:29 PM
Always start slow, always! Besides the limit is one, I have 1 account I just revived with that (didn't work for others) I order 4 single PS4s, now I feel it's a solid account.
Revived? It was shut down?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 17, 2018, 11:32:52 PM
Revived? It was shut down?
All orders were canceled
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on June 17, 2018, 11:44:23 PM


Understand but the question was using another businesses tax exempt number. So you have a tax exempt number for your business? Does each person need their own reselling business and tax exempt number?

Best buy actually requires each employee to have they're own number..

They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer,but you gotta be really naive if you think no laws are being broken or bent

From what I've been told is most best buy sales are generally to drain inventory. They're happy to drain it to resellers, except they don't want to be in blatant violation of they're apple authorized retailer agreement.
The only "illeaglity" is being in violation of best buys T&C which the most they can do is attempt to ban you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: avadah on June 18, 2018, 02:02:26 AM
What do you want to know? It's pretty simple.
Firstly the risks and downsides.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: tzifanya54 on June 18, 2018, 02:09:23 AM

Best buy actually requires each employee to have they're own number..

From what I've been told is most best buy sales are generally to drain inventory. They're happy to drain it to resellers, except they don't want to be in blatant violation of they're apple authorized retailer agreement.
The only "illeaglity" is being in violation of best buys T&C which the most they can do is attempt to ban you.
+1
I understand that to the case from several managers. BB does not have a problem with re-sellers per see. It's really best buy trying to CYA. They are worried if they are caught blatantly giving limitless items to re-sellers, Apple and other large manufacturers will give them hell. 
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on June 18, 2018, 08:53:40 AM
does waiting a couple of months help once you cant get any orders thru?
what about with gc would that make a difference?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on June 20, 2018, 10:47:53 AM
They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer,but you gotta be really naive if you think no laws are being broken or bent

Are you basing this upon fact or is this your feelings alone? Kindly point to which laws are being broken or bent for that matter. Don't forget a company's terms and conditions setting purchase limits is not in fact it's own standing laws nor able to be prosecuted upon solely in any sort of criminal matter as far as I'm aware.

Did you hear this from a CPA or someone otherwise knowledgeable in this matter?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: aygart on June 20, 2018, 11:01:08 AM
Are you basing this upon fact or is this your feelings alone? Kindly point to which laws are being broken or bent for that matter. Don't forget a company's terms and conditions setting purchase limits is not in fact it's own standing laws nor able to be prosecuted upon solely in any sort of criminal matter as far as I'm aware.

Did you hear this from a CPA or someone otherwise knowledgeable in this matter?
Ummm, he IS a CPA. lol
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on June 20, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
Ummm, he IS a CPA. lol
OK then, kindly point to which actual laws are being broken here? Because in my discussion of this with my CPA I was told that so long as I'm not actually profiting $600 worth I won't need a 1099 and don't need to worry. The swiping itself can be proven pretty easily as to whom's behalf I'm doing this. It's being resold wholesale (so not required to collect sales tax) and not for any personal use whatsoever.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 20, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
OK then, kindly point to which actual laws are being broken here? Because in my discussion of this with my CPA I was told that so long as I'm not actually profiting $600 worth I won't need a 1099 and don't need to worry. The swiping itself can be proven pretty easily as to whom's behalf I'm doing this. It's being resold wholesale (so not required to collect sales tax) and not for any personal use whatsoever.
My comment was directed at the buyer group managers/owners.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on June 20, 2018, 11:43:20 PM
My comment was directed at the buyer group managers/owners.
Much of your comment seemed to be directed towards members of the group doing the purchasing. Again correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 21, 2018, 06:38:09 AM
Much of your comment seemed to be directed towards members of the group doing the purchasing. Again correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong. Apologize that it came out that way, it was from the owners perspective.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on June 21, 2018, 11:51:44 PM
You're wrong. Apologize that it came out that way, it was from the owners perspective.


They are defrauding bb on their sales potential, market growth strategy etc etc. Their deals are not intended to be abused and manipulated by a Rico organiy out to rip off corporations,by mobilizing an army of con artists to deplete their limited discounted merchandise etc etc. Bla bla
I took issue with this statement. Perhaps I'm tired after a long day of work but not sure why the buyers are con artists or anything of the sort. As mentioned, you stated I'm wrong however your original statement in simple context doesn't seem to indicate that I am.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 22, 2018, 03:25:36 PM
I took issue with this statement. Perhaps I'm tired after a long day of work but not sure why the buyers are con artists or anything of the sort. As mentioned, you stated I'm wrong however your original statement in simple context doesn't seem to indicate that I am.
Many things we do in these games are questionable at best.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: myi on July 16, 2018, 06:46:43 PM
Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?
Prime Day Promotion!

Exclusively for MYS Buying Group.

We are raffling off $1,800 Cash!

Spend $2,500 on prime day sales, and earn 1 entry into this raffle.

Spend another $2,500? Earn another entry!

Yep, that's right. Every $2,500 spent earns you an entry into this raffle!

Winner will be drawn next at the end of the month.

Stay tuned for constantly updated deals and incentives!

 Happy prime day!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 16, 2018, 06:49:49 PM
Today was a fun day!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on July 16, 2018, 06:58:58 PM
Today was a fun day!
My cart was getting empty and i was having various issues...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on July 16, 2018, 07:23:48 PM
My cart was getting empty and i was having various issues...
+1 kept finding my cart empty
Today was a fun day!
but eventually it worked out...does amazon get annoyed at these high quantity orders or not? i mean they give you option to add up to 30 for some items....
really not interested in being banned from amazon
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on July 17, 2018, 03:48:12 PM
+1 kept finding my cart empty but eventually it worked out...does amazon get annoyed at these high quantity orders or not? i mean they give you option to add up to 30 for some items....
really not interested in being banned from amazon
I stayed away from Amazon deals, not worth a ban
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on July 17, 2018, 03:56:59 PM
I stayed away from Amazon deals, not worth a ban
with the amex offer 20% off this was quite awesome. but i also didnt over do it for that reason. hopefully i wont be banned for the small quantities i did
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: puddles on July 17, 2018, 04:56:20 PM
with the amex offer 20% off this was quite awesome. but i also didnt over do it for that reason. hopefully i wont be banned for the small quantities i did
That is good for 2 orders no?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on July 17, 2018, 06:48:49 PM
I stayed away from Amazon deals, not worth a ban
IME, Amazon doesn't ban you for purchasing the maximum quantity allowed. They only ban you if you try to circumvent the quantity limits by making new accounts.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on July 17, 2018, 07:13:15 PM
IME, Amazon doesn't ban you for purchasing the maximum quantity allowed. They only ban you if you try to circumvent the quantity limits by making new accounts.

policy is  prime members can not take advantage of special prime pricing for resale
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on July 17, 2018, 07:31:22 PM
Makes sense, but source? And have you ever seen them ban for that?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on July 17, 2018, 07:40:56 PM
Makes sense, but source? And have you ever seen them ban for that?
part of the T&C

Other Limitations
    We reserve the right to accept or refuse membership in our discretion.
    We may send you email and other communications related to Prime and your Prime membership (regardless of any settings or preferences related to your Amazon account).
    You may not transfer or assign your Prime membership or any Prime benefits, including promotion codes for Prime memberships or benefits, except as allowed in these terms.
    Prime members are not permitted to purchase products for the purpose of resale, rental, or to ship to their customers or potential customers using Prime benefits.
    Some Prime benefits may require certain purchase thresholds, have quantity or shipping address limitations, or require members to meet specified criteria in order to access them.
    From time to time, Amazon may choose in its sole discretion to add or remove Prime membership benefits.

alot of people talk about it on seller central im not a seller but there's a lot of useful info there
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on July 17, 2018, 07:47:27 PM
part of the T&C

Other Limitations
    We reserve the right to accept or refuse membership in our discretion.
    We may send you email and other communications related to Prime and your Prime membership (regardless of any settings or preferences related to your Amazon account).
    You may not transfer or assign your Prime membership or any Prime benefits, including promotion codes for Prime memberships or benefits, except as allowed in these terms.
    Prime members are not permitted to purchase products for the purpose of resale, rental, or to ship to their customers or potential customers using Prime benefits.
    Some Prime benefits may require certain purchase thresholds, have quantity or shipping address limitations, or require members to meet specified criteria in order to access them.
    From time to time, Amazon may choose in its sole discretion to add or remove Prime membership benefits.

alot of people talk about it on seller central im not a seller but there's a lot of useful info there
Thatís doesnít limit restriction to prime pricing.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LNS on July 17, 2018, 10:11:41 PM
Thatís doesnít limit restriction to prime pricing.

i would think "prime benefits" would include pricing
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on July 18, 2018, 11:09:10 PM
New terms on portal shopping for BB? "Only eligible on up to 10 orders per week." Found on MileagePlus portal.

Can anyone confirm this is the case? I wouldn't know since all my orders are cancelled anyways. ;)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 18, 2018, 11:27:40 PM
Anyone looking to swipe about about 30k? If you get bonus points for cruises it's a crazy good deal. #afaf
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mileagejunkie on July 19, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
OK then, kindly point to which actual laws are being broken here? Because in my discussion of this with my CPA I was told that so long as I'm not actually profiting $600 worth I won't need a 1099 and don't need to worry. The swiping itself can be proven pretty easily as to whom's behalf I'm doing this. It's being resold wholesale (so not required to collect sales tax) and not for any personal use whatsoever.
Start off with this question: If A paid taxes, can he legally request a sales tax refund?
Let me explain why I think it's not that simple - I'm a reseller (not the buying group kind). A resale certificate has the same effect as filing a sales tax refund, meaning that A has to either present a certificate or pay taxes (and get a refund) before selling to B. If he gave a certificate he can then get a copy of B's certificate (and sell tax free) or refuse it (and collect and pay sales taxes), in which case B can request a refund. In all these cases A and B will need to file sales taxes as they are required. I'm sure you can see the problem with A presenting B's resale certificate while he's using his card and then getting a check (A is a reseller no matter how you look at it and resellers are required to file sales taxes for sales in their state whether or not they collected them). I think the only reason that people don't get in trouble is because it's a gray-ish area (doesn't mean it's legal but the state doesn't lose money when done this way) and also there isn't usually a link between federal taxes and states sales taxes. However, I can only imagine that some people will get in trouble if there were some major audit (these can go up or down in hierarchy, I've had a business being audited asking for my certificate).
The only way I can see a buying group being 100% legal would be to "drop ship" to a state like Delaware and you'd only be legally required to file your regular taxes (you might have to file quarterly taxes!).
I'm not a CPA and I can be wrong, but I wouldn't take "so and so is a CPA and he said it's fine" as a guideline, I've had many instances of conflicting information. I'd ask that person to quote the law.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on July 19, 2018, 11:24:00 AM
New terms on portal shopping for BB? "Only eligible on up to 10 orders per week." Found on MileagePlus portal.

Can anyone confirm this is the case? I wouldn't know since all my orders are cancelled anyways. ;)
just got welcomed to this club. although i did take fully advantage as long as it worked :D
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on July 19, 2018, 12:19:00 PM
just got welcomed to this club. although i did take fully advantage as long as it worked :D
And I actually made an order (very small) yesterday that's didn't get cancelled yet... Didn't ship yet either, though....
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: shmoe joe on August 14, 2018, 10:36:39 PM
Some who work in credit repair offered me money to add additional cards to my cc for those people he is working to repair their credits. I"ll be the one opening it and the cards will arrive to my house, nobody will be using these cards. anything to be scared of?
p.s. not totally related but didn't know where to ask.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: JACKBLUE on August 14, 2018, 10:40:20 PM
Some who work in credit repair offered me money to add additional cards to my cc for those people he is working to repair their credits. I"ll be the one opening it and the cards will arrive to my house, nobody will be using these cards. anything to be scared of?
p.s. not totally related but didn't know where to ask.
I do this all the time for friends and family who try to build their credit.
So far no issues BH. Never thought this should be an issue.
Anyone here can confirm?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: oldguy on August 14, 2018, 10:57:38 PM
I do this all the time for friends and family who try to build their credit.
So far no issues BH. Never thought this should be an issue.
Anyone here can confirm?
I had with Capital One and Amex asking me to send in a copy of an ID and SS Card to verify that I know the people. There are companies that pay a few hundred $ to do that to other peoples credit.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 14, 2018, 10:57:54 PM
Banks don't like it if you do it for random people. In moderation I suppose you should be ok
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on August 14, 2018, 11:13:28 PM
See Chase A/A thread.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 15, 2018, 11:25:30 AM
Some who work in credit repair offered me money to add additional cards to my cc for those people he is working to repair their credits. I"ll be the one opening it and the cards will arrive to my house, nobody will be using these cards. anything to be scared of?
p.s. not totally related but didn't know where to ask.
Besides getting your account closed and/or getting access to your account there is nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: htg123 on August 15, 2018, 02:52:27 PM
They're called tradelines. Google it. Some banks are more prone to shutting you down than others.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Crunchy on August 19, 2018, 07:23:19 PM
Anyone have info/experience with MYS Buying Group that was featured in the ami this week?
Its not worth even trying it. i signed up an made a few orders and on one order they say they didn't receive it even though tracking shows that it was handed over to someone, so i guess this is where they make their money and you would be lucky to break even after doing ur best with points.  (and btw the first time i did orders for them on EBAY i immediately got suspended for life, so think before signing up.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Definitions on August 19, 2018, 07:29:31 PM
and btw the first time i did orders for them on EBAY i immediately got suspended for life, so think before signing up.
Where did you ship it to?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Mount Scopus on August 19, 2018, 07:35:49 PM
i signed up an made a few orders and on one order they say they didn't receive it even though tracking shows that it was handed over to someone, so i guess this is where they make their money and you would be lucky to break even after doing ur best with points.

I know first hand what it's like to have packages "delivered" to them but they "did't receive it". I'm not suggesting they're lying, just simply, they're not in control of what is gong on and lose buyers merchandise. Hey, it's not their money so what should they care!?

Also, I had a $5k box from Best-Buy stolen from my front porch. It was a headache getting a reimbursement from Best-BUy. I'm done buying for these guys. Let them find other means of getting their merchandise.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: ludmila on August 19, 2018, 09:49:30 PM
I know first hand what it's like to have packages "delivered" to them but they "did't receive it". I'm not suggesting they're lying, just simply, they're not in control of what is gong on and lose buyers merchandise. Hey, it's not their money so what should they care!?

Also, I had a $5k box from Best-Buy stolen from my front porch. It was a headache getting a reimbursement from Best-BUy. I'm done buying for these guys. Let them find other means of getting their merchandise.
Well said, not worth the risk.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on August 19, 2018, 10:19:53 PM
there are hundreds of people who have never had any issues... with spending many times $5k
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Crunchy on August 19, 2018, 10:48:11 PM
Where did you ship it to?
Delaware
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 19, 2018, 10:48:24 PM
I know first hand what it's like to have packages "delivered" to them but they "did't receive it". I'm not suggesting they're lying, just simply, they're not in control of what is gong on and lose buyers merchandise. Hey, it's not their money so what should they care!?

Also, I had a $5k box from Best-Buy stolen from my front porch. It was a headache getting a reimbursement from Best-BUy. I'm done buying for these guys. Let them find other means of getting their merchandise.
Lol. The second half of your post literally shows how they aren't at fault for what you blame them on the first half.
Title: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 19, 2018, 10:50:35 PM
Lol. The second half of your post literally shows how they aren't at fault for what you blame them on the first half.
I donít follow.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Definitions on August 19, 2018, 10:52:41 PM
Delaware
I'm going to assume that's the reason you were banned. I only bought for them once so far so I don't know the ropes. But if eBay doesn't like what they are doing and they know they're located there. I'd assume anybody that ships there will get banned instantly.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 19, 2018, 10:52:43 PM
I donít follow.
He's blaming them for merchandise they say they never received, yet he himself saw it makes sense that they aren't at fault when he lost a 5k package.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on August 19, 2018, 10:53:07 PM
I donít follow.
you deleted that too fast ;D
thats the disadvantage of buying things online and having them delivered without requiring  signature
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 19, 2018, 10:54:52 PM
He's blaming them for merchandise they say they never received, yet he himself saw it makes sense that they aren't at fault when he lost a 5k package.
You donít see a difference in whoís responsible for dealing with shipper/merchant based on where the item was lost?
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: gingyguy on August 19, 2018, 10:55:16 PM
I'm going to assume that's the reason you were banned. I only bought for them once so far so I don't know the ropes. But if eBay doesn't like what they are doing and they know they're located there. I'd assume anybody that ships there will get banned instantly.
-1 you get banned for buying to many of their deals even if you ship to  NJ/NY
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 19, 2018, 10:58:13 PM
You donít see a difference in whoís responsible for dealing with shipper/merchant based on where the item was lost?
I do.
My opinion is simple, it makes plenty sense that items have never been delivered occasionally, and it's the retailer who is at fault. Just like you can have that happen when shipping to home
Obviously if it's an extreme amount the group doing something wrong. I've sent thousands of dollars of merchandise to MYS, and never had an item lost, I just don't think it's a common occurrence.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: Definitions on August 19, 2018, 10:58:50 PM
-1 you get banned for buying to many of their deals even if you ship to  NJ/NY
When you say NY/NJ do you mean to your own house? And that's not a stira to what I said. Thats another way for eBay to see that you're buying for them.

Unless you meant that eBay doesn't care if you ship to Delaware. Just that you shouldn't buy more than the limit?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 19, 2018, 11:02:56 PM
I do.
My opinion is simple, it makes plenty sense that items have never been delivered occasionally, and it's the retailer who is at fault. Just like you can have that happen when shipping to home
Obviously if it's an extreme amount the group doing something wrong. I've sent thousands of dollars of merchandise to MYS, and never had an item lost, I just don't think it's a common occurrence.
But if there is an issue and shipper claims to have delivered the item, who should be responsible for remediating?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on August 19, 2018, 11:04:40 PM
When you say NY/NJ do you mean to your own house? And that's not a stira to what I said. Thats another way for eBay to see that you're buying for them.

Unless you meant that eBay doesn't care if you ship to Delaware. Just that you shouldn't buy more than the limit?
You can get banned for a buying a single daily deal to your house, eBay just bans everyone, it's only a matter of time, doesn't matter how much you buy or where you ship to.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 19, 2018, 11:05:46 PM
But if there is an issue and shipper claims to have delivered the item, who should be responsible for remediating?
If the group genuinly never got it, are they responsible?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on August 19, 2018, 11:06:12 PM
I recently had with MYS  an issue. I bought 3 of same item and they claimed they only got two. Was supposed to be delivered in the same box. They made me fight amazon for the $100. Even though the full order was in the thousands.  Was very disappointed. They called me to discuss which was nice but they basically told me to go screw myself(in nice terms). Probably wont do business with them again
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 19, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
There usually is early warning signs when things might go wrong. Don't have your head buried in the sand.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ludmila on August 19, 2018, 11:24:38 PM
There usually is early warning signs when things might go wrong. Don't have your head buried in the sand.
100%, I learned this the hard way in my business, no need for details, but it was early warning signs I should have taken seriously.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 20, 2018, 01:01:11 AM
If the group genuinly never got it, are they responsible?
I wouldnít want to deal with a group that doesnít take responsibility for remediating issues with the carrier or merchant once the items are in their property. And if ups says they got the item but they disagree, I wouldnít want to be the one to take it up with UPS. Iíd want much more than a few percent to take on that risk as well as the risk that I never get paid back.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: grodnoking on August 20, 2018, 02:38:34 AM
I've helped create many "UPS Methods" in this business. The only person I've ever bought for by shipping directly to a warehouse whether or not in DE was someone I trust and know personally. I know first hand how many packages can get stolen or lost, (and it's more than you think). If I buy for someone I don't know, such as MYS, I ship it to me and drop it off by them.
Title: Re: Buying Groups
Post by: gingyguy on August 20, 2018, 08:01:41 AM
When you say NY/NJ do you mean to your own house? And that's not a stira to what I said. Thats another way for eBay to see that you're buying for them.

Unless you meant that eBay doesn't care if you ship to Delaware. Just that you shouldn't buy more than the limit?
yes
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mount Scopus on August 20, 2018, 09:14:19 AM
Lol. The second half of your post literally shows how they aren't at fault for what you blame them on the first half.

1.   Lol! I was clear that the first story was when items were shipped to them, whereas, the second story the items were shipped to me. Additionally, please show me where I blamed the buying groups for the box $5k box that was shipped to me? All I said was that I am done buying for them. The headaches and sleepless nights worrying about my merchandise is not worth it.

2.   Based on the MYS buying group open chat, I am not the only one who has had merchandise delivered to their Delaware warehouse and for them ďnot to have received itĒ. In essence, all of us were told ďWe donít care. If it was not scanned in, it was not deliveredĒ.

3.   I have on good record that MYS lost control of what was going on during the Prime Day sales and had to ship pallets from DE to their Crown Heights warehouse to be sorted and scannedÖ Their lack of taking responsibility, or customer service, is disgraceful. Are you seriously telling me that their system is 100% fool proof and while UPSís system can make an error by marking an item delivered, but itís impossible for their wonderful high tech system to make an error?

4.   After being told "Go pound sand. We never received your items" a friend of mine borderline harassed Mark Mann into searching his warehouse for his items, and guess what? His items were found! Fool proof system, huh?

He's blaming them for merchandise they say they never received, yet he himself saw it makes sense that they aren't at fault when he lost a 5k package.

5.   Do you work for these buying groups? Or do they just pay you to come on here and defend them?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mount Scopus on August 20, 2018, 09:15:38 AM
there are hundreds of people who have never had any issues... with spending many times $5k

Iíve spent over $150k since the beginning of 2018 across all buying groups. This is not the first issue I had with MYS. Iíve been baited and switched a few times when it comes to commissions, and when I was getting nowhere, let it slide. This $5k box as well as the lost package shipped to them was the last straw. I did not blame them at all for the $5k box, but blamed myself for believing that they care when the issue is with them.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 09:23:23 AM
"Go pound sand. We never received your items"
This is a major red flag!!!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mount Scopus on August 20, 2018, 09:28:59 AM
This is a major red flag!!!

I'm not saying no one should buy for the groups, just be very aware of what you're getting yourself into. Bottom line, when you have issues (which you probably will), you're on your own.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 20, 2018, 09:37:05 AM


1.Lol! I was clear that the first story was when items were shipped to them, whereas, the second story the items were shipped to me. Additionally, please show me where I blamed the buying groups for the box $5k box that was shipped to me? All I said was that I am done buying for them. The headaches and sleepless nights worrying about my merchandise is not worth it.
I made a very simple statement, which I don't understand why you can't comprehend.
Just like a 5k package was lost at your house and it wasn't your fault. (Between the store, and delivery service.) The same can happen there, a package can get lost and it isn't their fault.
The rest of the situation I didn't reply to, I'm not saying anyone is 100% innocent, all I know is my experience, and in my experience of thousands of dollars I had no problems.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mount Scopus on August 20, 2018, 09:44:55 AM
I made a very simple statement, which I don't understand why you can't comprehend.
Just like a 5k package was lost at your house and it wasn't your fault. (Between the store, and delivery service.) The same can happen there, a package can get lost and it isn't their fault.
The rest of the situation I didn't reply to, I'm not saying anyone is 100% innocent, all I know is my experience, and in my experience of thousands of dollars I had no problems.

If an item was lost in their warehouse, yes, I think they should take responsibility.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 09:50:19 AM
I made a very simple statement, which I don't understand why you can't comprehend.
Just like a 5k package was lost at your house and it wasn't your fault. (Between the store, and delivery service.) The same can happen there, a package can get lost and it isn't their fault.
The rest of the situation I didn't reply to, I'm not saying anyone is 100% innocent, all I know is my experience, and in my experience of thousands of dollars I had no problems.
The package wasn't lost. It was stolen after delivered. If the package is delivered to their warehouse they better make sure it is not stolen/misplaced. You having thousand of dollars with no problems is 100% useless. It is how they handle problems that is important.
Title: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 20, 2018, 09:56:10 AM
The package wasn't lost. It was stolen after delivered. If the package is delivered to their warehouse they better make sure it is not stolen/misplaced. You having thousand of dollars with no problems is 100% useless. It is how they handle problems that is important.
Also, if they expect you to spend hours on the phone to resolve issues that occurred within their premises, that significantly reduces the value proposition.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 09:56:59 AM
Also, if they expect you to spend hours on the phone to resolve issues that occurred within their premises, that significantly reduces the value proposition.
They should have something in place to help resolve the situation.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 20, 2018, 09:58:09 AM
They should have something in place to help resolve the situation.
You think their fancy enough to have a customer service department...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 10:00:11 AM
You think their fancy enough to have a customer service department...
No but a simple paragraph on want to do is asking to much?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 20, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
No but a simple paragraph on want to do is asking to much?
Caveat emptor
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Caveat emptor
This is a major red flag!!!
:)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on August 20, 2018, 10:10:38 AM
:)
Agreed. Thatís why I stopped with the groups unless they offer major commissions
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mordyk on August 20, 2018, 10:39:06 AM
Agreed. Thatís why I stopped with the groups unless they offer major commissions
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dr Moose on August 20, 2018, 01:13:04 PM
You think their fancy enough to have a customer service department...
None of the groups have any customer service. If anything happens, it's on you.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 20, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
If an item was lost in their warehouse, yes, I think they should take responsibility.
The package wasn't lost. It was stolen after delivered. If the package is delivered to their warehouse they better make sure it is not stolen/misplaced. You having thousand of dollars with no problems is 100% useless. It is how they handle problems that is important.
I'm talking about where they say it was never delivered, doubtful that items are stolen from there.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on August 20, 2018, 02:48:49 PM
It's very risky i'll tell you that. How can you file a claim if you can't be 100% sure it was not received?

I would never ship to a company's warehouse. I would never buy deals on ebay or amazon with the risk of beings banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on August 20, 2018, 03:25:30 PM
I would never ship to a company's warehouse. I would never buy deals on ebay or amazon with the risk of beings banned.
How much is not being banned from ebay worth to you? besides, you can usually still order with guest checkout.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: chevron on August 20, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
How much is not being banned from ebay worth to you? besides, you can usually still order with guest checkout.

Registered on eBay nearly 20 years ago..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on August 20, 2018, 04:15:49 PM
Registered on eBay nearly 20 years ago..
So?

Unless you're talking about a seller account.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 20, 2018, 04:23:32 PM
How much is not being banned from ebay worth to you?
Minimum 50k/yr.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on August 20, 2018, 04:37:08 PM
Minimum 50k/yr.
Doable
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: davidrotts63 on August 20, 2018, 06:51:13 PM
You can continue to sell after being banned.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: stooges44 on August 20, 2018, 07:13:33 PM
How much is not being banned from ebay worth to you? besides, you can usually still order with guest checkout.

But you lose ebay bucks which was very, very nice before I got banned  :-\

Registered on eBay nearly 20 years ago..

I was also and when I called to complain I got reinstated but then months later I randomly got locked down (with no notification I just get an error anytime I try to checkout while logged in) again and so far my pleas have fallen on deaf ears.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: gingyguy on August 20, 2018, 08:21:19 PM
But you lose ebay bucks which was very, very nice before I got banned  :-\

I was also and when I called to complain I got reinstated but then months later I randomly got locked down (with no notification I just get an error anytime I try to checkout while logged in) again and so far my pleas have fallen on deaf ears.
How did you get reinstated ? When i tried multiple times i got a straight no.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on August 21, 2018, 12:55:26 AM
But you lose ebay bucks which was very, very nice before I got banned  :-\

I was also and when I called to complain I got reinstated but then months later I randomly got locked down (with no notification I just get an error anytime I try to checkout while logged in) again and so far my pleas have fallen on deaf ears.
If you're only doing ebay orders from your account while logged in there is absolutely no point, save your account and don't order. If you're doing it right you'll be making way more than the ebay bucks were paying you anyway.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on August 21, 2018, 08:39:53 AM
You can continue to sell after being banned.
I was for a few months then got banned for that as well..
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dovidb on August 22, 2018, 12:02:46 AM
Minimum 50k/yr.
If you are talking about spend you can do 10 x that after you have been banned
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dovidb on August 22, 2018, 12:26:34 AM
Also, if they expect you to spend hours on the phone to resolve issues that occurred within their premises, that significantly reduces the value proposition.
what do you expect them to do they have no way to make a claim they were not the purchaser. you can place a claim and most of the time get your money back yes it may take hrs on the phone but usually you will be able to get your money back thats just one of the risks of playing this game some times you will have to spend time fixing issues
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 22, 2018, 12:28:44 AM
If you are talking about spend...
:)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: dovidb on August 22, 2018, 12:32:41 AM
:)
still doable but dificult
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Mootkim on August 30, 2018, 02:50:38 PM
None of the groups have any customer service. If anything happens, it's on you.

-1

USA buying has great customer service (unlike MYS where it is so difficult to communicate or get something resolved). I rarely have ever had a problem with them and if I did, such as them losing a product one time in an entire year, they sent me the money for it immediately. If I ever have questions or issues they are there to resolve it immediately. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehuda25 on August 30, 2018, 04:44:16 PM
-1

USA buying has great customer service (unlike MYS where it is so difficult to communicate or get something resolved). I rarely have ever had a problem with them and if I did, such as them losing a product one time in an entire year, they sent me the money for it immediately. If I ever have questions or issues they are there to resolve it immediately. Just my opinion.
+1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: grodnoking on August 30, 2018, 05:24:46 PM
If you are talking about spend you can do 10 x that after you have been banned
What if your also banned from pp
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: grodnoking on August 30, 2018, 05:25:45 PM
-1

USA buying has great customer service (unlike MYS where it is so difficult to communicate or get something resolved). I rarely have ever had a problem with them and if I did, such as them losing a product one time in an entire year, they sent me the money for it immediately. If I ever have questions or issues they are there to resolve it immediately. Just my opinion.
+jazzer
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: askmoses on September 02, 2018, 04:26:14 PM
-1

USA buying has great customer service (unlike MYS where it is so difficult to communicate or get something resolved). I rarely have ever had a problem with them and if I did, such as them losing a product one time in an entire year, they sent me the money for it immediately. If I ever have questions or issues they are there to resolve it immediately. Just my opinion.
My experience was the opposite.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on September 02, 2018, 11:16:43 PM
Anyone else get PM's from a account with no posts, regarding above mentioned topics?  When I tried to give at least a corteous response it says inbox full?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakrot on September 02, 2018, 11:23:10 PM
Anyone else get PM's from a account with no posts, regarding above mentioned topics?  When I tried to give at least a corteous response it says inbox full?
Can you post the content of what does account wants?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Eliyohu on September 02, 2018, 11:25:53 PM
Can you post the content of what does account wants?
The person wants to know how to start a buying group and how to join/how it works ...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ckmk47 on September 03, 2018, 01:39:28 AM
Anyone else get PM's from a account with no posts, regarding above mentioned topics?  When I tried to give at least a corteous response it says inbox full?
In another thread it was mentioned that an account with no posts cannot receive pm's.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: grodnoking on September 03, 2018, 03:58:09 AM
The person wants to know how to start a buying group and how to join/how it works ...
You cannot find it... It must find you!
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hjay on September 05, 2018, 05:03:33 PM
& now the buying groups suddenly became coin buyersÖ Everybody seems to be offering the same exact commission.

I was reading how pfs coins work & quite frankly the buying groups seem a lot more secure. If shipping to your house you get a check on the spot as opposed to pfs where youíre getting it a week or so after you sent it in. Besides for the issue of losing stuff when shipping directly to them buying groups definitely seem like the way to go.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: grodnoking on September 05, 2018, 05:11:24 PM
& now the buying groups suddenly became coin buyersÖ Everybody seems to be offering the same exact commission.

I was reading how pfs coins work & quite frankly the buying groups seem a lot more secure. If shipping to your house you get a check on the spot as opposed to pfs where youíre getting it a week or so after you sent it in. Besides for the issue of losing stuff when shipping directly to them buying groups definitely seem like the way to go.
From what I heard the buying groups are in cahoots with PFS or other such buyers. That would explain the matching comms.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 05:22:00 PM
From what I heard the buying groups are in cahoots with PFS or other such buyers. That would explain the matching comms.
How about PFS is paying the buying groups a commission?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Abet rich on September 05, 2018, 05:25:34 PM
It seems like everyone is in bed together over here.... first all the buying groups sending out the exact same emails and then now Dan pushing and promoting these guys as if itís the hottest dea/price mistake thatís hit the market in the last 5 years?!?!? Itís like one big conspiracy going around and around
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yammer on September 05, 2018, 05:27:09 PM
It seems like everyone is in bed together over here.... first all the buying groups sending out the exact same emails and then now Dan pushing and promoting these guys as if itís the hottest dea/price mistake thatís hit the market in the last 5 years?!?!? Itís like one big conspiracy going around and around
Is Alex Jones promoting it too?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 05:27:18 PM
It seems like everyone is in bed together over here.... first all the buying groups sending out the exact same emails and then now Dan pushing and promoting these guys as if itís the hottest dea/price mistake thatís hit the market in the last 5 years?!?!? Itís like one big conspiracy going around and around
Let me sum it up for you, MONEY!!!  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 05:28:27 PM
Is Alex Jones promoting it too?
He is picking a fight with Rubio.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on September 05, 2018, 05:43:12 PM
Who is that nutcase?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 05:44:25 PM
Who is that nutcase?
The one on the left or right?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yakrot on September 05, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
It seems like everyone is in bed together over here.... first all the buying groups sending out the exact same emails and then now Dan pushing and promoting these guys as if itís the hottest dea/price mistake thatís hit the market in the last 5 years?!?!? Itís like one big conspiracy going around and around
I think his point is that even if the buying groups are in cahoots who cares as long as the commissions are the same better to drop it off locally and get a check on the spot than to have to wait a week to deposit and the extra worry of shipping it
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on September 05, 2018, 05:48:25 PM
This Alex Jones guy. He seems like a Trump clone. Spewing the same nonsense, lacking common decency and manners. Probably same IQ level of a Kindergarten kid.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 05:50:54 PM
This Alex Jones guy. He seems like a Trump clone. Spewing the same nonsense, lacking common decency and manners. Probably same IQ level of a Kindergarten kid.
Be careful with that type of talk. The Trumpsters will come after you.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on September 05, 2018, 07:05:09 PM
That's restricted to the Politics thread. I don't step foot into that quagmire.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 07:06:47 PM
That's restricted to the Politics thread. I don't step foot into that quagmire.
They are everywhere. Speak no ill will of one of their supporters.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on September 05, 2018, 07:49:48 PM
Lucky posted about it too now. What a joke, everyone's in bed together and if something goes wrong someone is gonna get screwed big time.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: LoLo on September 05, 2018, 08:06:56 PM
I like the part where he gave a h/t to another blog, as if it's not a paid ad.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 08:11:48 PM
Lucky posted about it too now. What a joke, everyone's in bed together and if something goes wrong someone is gonna get screwed big time.
Link?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on September 05, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Link?
https://onemileatatime.com/pfs-buyers-club/
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: yelped on September 05, 2018, 08:27:30 PM
Looks like he wants to nail all 15,000 coins this time to guarantee the price won't fall.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on September 05, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Looks like he wants to nail all 15,000 coins this time to guarantee the price won't fall.
Other people are buying also so it's unlikely that he'll get all of them.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Yehudaa on September 05, 2018, 08:35:43 PM
https://onemileatatime.com/pfs-buyers-club/
Comment #7 on Lucky's article :) :

"Dan from Dansdeals is recommending them after using them a couple of times in the past.

https://www.dansdeals.com/advertisement/purchase-coin-1392-45-mint-get-1443-back/

(This was posted here as a Ďdealí, thereís no way this isnít a paid ad IMO)."

Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 08:37:01 PM
Comment #7 on Lucky's article :) :

"Dan from Dansdeals is recommending them after using them a couple of times in the past.

https://www.dansdeals.com/advertisement/purchase-coin-1392-45-mint-get-1443-back/

(This was posted here as a Ďdealí, thereís no way this isnít a paid ad IMO)."
I would not want to be @Dan if something went wrong.  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: justaregularguy on September 05, 2018, 08:39:24 PM
I would not want to be @Dan if something went wrong.  :)
nah heís like trump around here: if something goes wrong heís impervious to harm 8) his fans still stick to him
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: mmgfarb on September 05, 2018, 08:40:35 PM
IMO this crazy advertising rush was a bad idea for PFS but what do I know.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on September 05, 2018, 08:45:00 PM
I think this is the first time im not going to succeed getting one
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 08:45:14 PM
nah heís like trump around here: if something goes wrong heís impervious to harm 8) his fans still stick to him
...not when money is involved. You remember the TYP fiasco that an unnamed member got him into?  :)
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 08:46:04 PM
I think this is the first time im not going to succeed getting one
I will be swimming.  :P
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on September 05, 2018, 08:46:48 PM
I will be swimming.  :P

With penguins?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 05, 2018, 08:48:20 PM
With penguins?
>:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Hjay on September 06, 2018, 05:07:16 AM
Iím not sure why but all this publicity is making me weary about the whole buying group industry.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: sruly on September 06, 2018, 07:10:53 AM
Lucky posted about it too now. What a joke, everyone's in bed together and if something goes wrong someone is gonna get screwed big time.
pretty sure he posted deals for pfs in the past.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on September 06, 2018, 08:12:39 AM
pretty sure he posted deals for pfs in the past.

Never went to DOC and luckt before iinm
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: ib3 on September 06, 2018, 12:07:42 PM
Dead
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on September 06, 2018, 08:30:36 PM
I would not want to be @Dan if something went wrong.  :)
I was extremely uneasy when I first heard of this idea. I said PFS would have to put up big bucks to back things up if they went south. They did and things always went impressively smoothly for such a large scale deal. Which was good as we gave a DD backup guarantee for those deals.

We did that a couple times and at this point I'm comfortable enough not requiring it, with the disclaimer that it's not our responsibility. There's no such thing as no risk, but their honesty over 4 years of working together has been commendable.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: S209 on September 06, 2018, 09:49:33 PM
I was extremely uneasy when I first heard of this idea. I said PFS would have to put up big bucks to back things up if they went south. They did and things always went impressively smoothly for such a large scale deal. Which was good as we gave a DD backup guarantee for those deals.

We did that a couple times and at this point I'm comfortable enough not requiring it, with the disclaimer that it's not our responsibility. There's no such thing as no risk, but their honesty over 4 years of working together has been commendable.
Itís still VERY risky. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Still, I guess you could say that about all buying groups, though I prefer handing over packages and receiving a check on the spot.. check actually needs to bounce then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_scam?wprov=sfti1
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: helpyouamdme on September 06, 2018, 10:06:14 PM
I was extremely uneasy when I first heard of this idea. I said PFS would have to put up big bucks to back things up if they went south. They did and things always went impressively smoothly for such a large scale deal. Which was good as we gave a DD backup guarantee for those deals.

We did that a couple times and at this point I'm comfortable enough not requiring it, with the disclaimer that it's not our responsibility. There's no such thing as no risk, but their honesty over 4 years of working together has been commendable.
just tell us how many $ you are making here, lol.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on September 06, 2018, 10:08:03 PM
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: EJB on September 06, 2018, 10:15:39 PM

This isnít prime day or Black Friday...
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on September 06, 2018, 10:18:26 PM
This isnít prime day or Black Friday...
Lol, mixing up DD with SD again?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: 12HRS on September 06, 2018, 10:30:56 PM
I was extremely uneasy when I first heard of this idea. I said PFS would have to put up big bucks to back things up if they went south. They did and things always went impressively smoothly for such a large scale deal. Which was good as we gave a DD backup guarantee for those deals.

We did that a couple times and at this point I'm comfortable enough not requiring it, with the disclaimer that it's not our responsibility. There's no such thing as no risk, but their honesty over 4 years of working together has been commendable.

They put money in escrow for it?
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
Post by: Dan on September 06, 2018, 10:34:30 PM
Yes, for the first couple times.
Not for the last few times.
Title: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for