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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 09:43:28 AM

Title: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 09:43:28 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?
How can someone that's not religious lay claim to Israel because it says in the Torah it belongs to the Jews if they anyways don't keep the Torah?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: george on February 26, 2014, 09:49:20 AM
Does this bother you more than the Reform and Conservative movements? They, too, pick and choose what parts of the Torah they wish to follow.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 09:53:06 AM
The truth is I never thought of it but it's still not much of a claim if it's based on something you can pick and choose what you want to keep.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: satturn on February 26, 2014, 09:53:51 AM
because it says in the Torah

is that their reason? I think its a jewish homeland due to jewish residency over the years. (not saying i agree)

This is only a question on secular zionists, on RZ it would not be an issue.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: george on February 26, 2014, 09:54:32 AM
Basically the answer to your question is: because they WANT to.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 09:58:29 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?
How can someone that's not religious lay claim to Israel because it says in the Torah it belongs to the Jews if they anyways don't keep the Torah?
Because it's their land. Always been.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: george on February 26, 2014, 10:01:38 AM
Because it's their land. Always been.
That's another good answer.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 10:23:55 AM
Because it's their land. Always been.
If not for the Torah how do you know? The Palestinians also claim that.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 10:25:22 AM
If not for the Torah how do you know? The Palestinians also claim that.
its a fact
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 10:29:35 AM
If not for the Torah how do you know? The Palestinians also claim that.
They can claim what they want, they have not a shred of evidence to back that up...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 10:30:58 AM
Actually, Herzl SR"Y was fine with a jewish homeland in Uganda.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 10:31:33 AM

This is only a question on secular zionists, on RZ it would not be an issue.
The irony is that the RZ who were seen as tag-alongs in the beginning are basically the only Zionists around these days, secular Zionism is dead.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: george on February 26, 2014, 10:31:39 AM
Actually, Herzl SR"Y was fine with a jewish homeland in Uganda.
Irrelevant.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
The non jews are correct, its the first Rashi in the torah!
Listim atem!

Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 10:34:54 AM
In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
    
בראשית: אמר רבי יצחק לא היה צריך להתחיל [את] התורה אלא (שמות יב ב) מהחודש הזה לכם, שהיא מצוה ראשונה שנצטוו [בה] ישראל, ומה טעם פתח בבראשית, משום (תהלים קיא ו) כח מעשיו הגיד לעמו לתת להם נחלת גוים, שאם יאמרו אומות העולם לישראל לסטים אתם, שכבשתם ארצות שבעה גוים, הם אומרים להם כל הארץ של הקב"ה היא, הוא בראה ונתנה לאשר ישר בעיניו, ברצונו נתנה להם וברצונו נטלה מהם ונתנה לנו:
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 10:42:54 AM
In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
    
בראשית: אמר רבי יצחק לא היה צריך להתחיל [את] התורה אלא (שמות יב ב) מהחודש הזה לכם, שהיא מצוה ראשונה שנצטוו [בה] ישראל, ומה טעם פתח בבראשית, משום (תהלים קיא ו) כח מעשיו הגיד לעמו לתת להם נחלת גוים, שאם יאמרו אומות העולם לישראל לסטים אתם, שכבשתם ארצות שבעה גוים, הם אומרים להם כל הארץ של הקב"ה היא, הוא בראה ונתנה לאשר ישר בעיניו, ברצונו נתנה להם וברצונו נטלה מהם ונתנה לנו:
I know this but it doesn't do you any good if you don't believe in it.


They can claim what they want, they have not a shred of evidence to back that up...
What do you mean? Arabs lived in Israel for years. The reason the British were so strict with allowing Jews in was because they didn't want to aggravate the Arab population.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 10:45:05 AM


What do you mean? Arabs lived in Israel for years. The reason the British were so strict with allowing Jews in was because they didn't want to aggravate the Arab population.
+1
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 10:53:12 AM

In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
 
בראשית: אמר רבי יצחק לא היה צריך להתחיל [את] התורה אלא (שמות יב ב) מהחודש הזה לכם, שהיא מצוה ראשונה שנצטוו [בה] ישראל, ומה טעם פתח בבראשית, משום (תהלים קיא ו) כח מעשיו הגיד לעמו לתת להם נחלת גוים, שאם יאמרו אומות העולם לישראל לסטים אתם, שכבשתם ארצות שבעה גוים, הם אומרים להם כל הארץ של הקב"ה היא, הוא בראה ונתנה לאשר ישר בעיניו, ברצונו נתנה להם וברצונו נטלה מהם ונתנה לנו:

Who are the Canaanites?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: ChAiM'l on February 26, 2014, 11:02:03 AM
Who are were the Canaanites?

FTFY
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:05:21 AM
Who are the Canaanites?
Whats the difference? The point is that it is NOT inherently a Jewish land if one does not believe in creation and the torah. These Jews have no inherent claim to the land because they have occupied it intermittently throughout history.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:23:33 AM
Here are Ben Gurion's pearls of wisdom at the UN in 1947
He spoke of Jews receiving the land after yetzias mitzrayim. Do his Children observe seder night? ?
 
Quote
n 1947, standing before the U.N. Commission on the Partition of Palestine, David Ben-Gurion spoke these words:
"Three hundred years ago a ship called the Mayflower set sail to the New World. This was a great event in the history of England. Yet I wonder if there is one Englishman who knows at what time the ship set sail? Do the English know how many people embarked on the voyage? What quality of bread did they eat? Yet more than three thousand three hundred years ago, before the Mayflower set sail, the Jews left Egypt. Every Jew in the world, even in America or Soviet Russia, knows what kind of bread the Jews ate - Matza. Even today the Jews worldwide eat Matza on the 15th of Nisan. They retell the story of the Exodus and all of the troubles Jews have endured since being exiled, saying: This year, slaves, next year, free! This year here - Next year in Jerusalem, in Zion, in Eretz Yisrael. That is the nature of the Jews."
"300 years ago, there came to the New World a boat, and its name was the Mayflower. The Mayflower’s landing on Plymouth Rock was one of the great historical events in the history of England and in the history of America. But I would like to ask any Englishman sitting here on the commission, what day did the Mayflower leave port? What date was it? I’d like to ask the Americans: do they know what date the Mayflower left port in England? How many people were on the boat? Who were their leaders? What kind of food did they eat on the boat?
"More than 3300 years ago, long before the Mayflower, our people left Egypt, and every Jew in the world, wherever he is, knows what day they left. And he knows what food they ate. And we still eat that food every anniversary. And we know who our leader was. And we sit down and tell the story to our children and grandchildren in order to guarantee that it will never be forgotten. And we say our two slogans: 'Now we may be enslaved, but next year, we’ll be a free people.'
". . . Now we are behind the Soviet Union and their prison. Now, we’re in Germany where Hitler is destroying us. Now we’re scattered throughout the world, but next year, we’ll be in Jerusalem. There’ll come a day that we’ll come home to Zion, to the Land of Israel. That is the nature of the Jewish people."
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 11:33:38 AM
^ what's your point? There are many Satmar Chasidim whose children don't celebrate Pesach.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 11:35:05 AM
Here are Ben Gurion's pearls of wisdom at the UN in 1947
He spoke of Jews receiving the land after yetzias mitzrayim. Do his Children observe seder night? ?
 
Whats the difference? The point is that it is NOT inherently a Jewish land if one does not believe in creation and the torah. These Jews have no inherent claim to the land because they have occupied it intermittently throughout history.

+1

^ what's your point? There are many Satmar Chasidim whose children don't celebrate Pesach.
They don't claim to own the land!  ;D
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:40:51 AM
^ what's your point? There are many Satmar Chasidim whose children don't celebrate Pesach.
The point was illustrating the OP's point which is that without adhering to the Torah and belief creation, zionism is a joke and a myth.
Are you not following the thread? Im not looking to bash people who dont keep pesach, just mocking the zionists who are atheists.  ROLFLMAO
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 11:43:51 AM

The point was illustrating the OP's point which is that without adhering to the Torah and belief creation, zionism is a joke and a myth.
Are you not following the thread? Im not looking to bash people who dont keep pesach, just mocking the zionists who are atheists.  ROLFLMAO

Satmar Uber Allis. 
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:46:47 AM
Satmar Uber Allis.
I am the furthest thing from satmar that you can imagine.
Are you not a religious zionist? If you're a secular zionist please explain your position. Even ben gurion couldn't articulate it without referencing emuna.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 11:48:22 AM

I am the furthest thing from satmar that you can imagine.
Are you not a religious zionist? If you're a secular zionist please explain your position. Even ben gurion couldn't articulate it without referencing emuna.

I'm not a Zionist, it's just that your views are eerily similar to what's found in jihadi media.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:50:35 AM
I'm not a Zionist, it's just that your views are eerily similar to what's found in jihadi media.
They make the same claims referenced in Rashi. The answer obviously is in the Rashi also.
You are not really addressing the issue of secular zionism, so enjoy the rest of your day!
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 11:51:41 AM

They make the same claims referenced in Rashi. The answer obviously is in the Rashi also.
You are not really addressing the issue of secular zionism, so enjoy the rest of your day!

What was the question about secular Zionism?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 11:56:05 AM
Can someone please explain this to me?
How can someone that's not religious lay claim to Israel because it says in the Torah it belongs to the Jews if they anyways don't keep the Torah?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 11:57:09 AM
I'm not a Zionist, it's just that your views are eerily similar to what's found in jihadi media.
Could be. Except for the part where I believe EY belongs to the Jews because it says it in the Torah.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 11:57:23 AM



Dunno. Ask a secular Zionist.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 12:19:42 PM
Can someone please explain this to me?
How can someone that's not religious lay claim to Israel because it says in the Torah it belongs to the Jews if they anyways don't keep the Torah?
Jews were given a piece of land by an occupying power, it was also voted on by a majority (2/3) of the civilized nations in the world (UN). Israel then survived multiple (mostly) uninstigated wars and in so doing managed to procure more land. Based on recent history (Holocaust, pogroms etc) it is not unreasonable to think that if Jews did not have their own land they could easily be persecuted in the harshest of manners. For all of these reasons, many logical (non-religious) people conclude that Israel has a legitimate claim to their country. 
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 12:36:33 PM
They make the same claims referenced in Rashi. The answer obviously is in the Rashi also.
You are not really addressing the issue of secular zionism, so enjoy the rest of your day!
What was the question about secular Zionism?
Dunno. Ask a secular Zionist.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 12:37:32 PM
Jews were given a piece of land by an occupying power, it was also voted on by a majority (2/3) of the civilized nations in the world (UN). Israel then survived multiple (mostly) uninstigated wars and in so doing managed to procure more land. Based on recent history (Holocaust, pogroms etc) it is not unreasonable to think that if Jews did not have their own land they could easily be persecuted in the harshest of manners. For all of these reasons, many logical (non-religious) people conclude that Israel has a legitimate claim to their country.
All good and well but it doesn't address the Arabs' claim that they were there first...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 12:38:35 PM

All good and well but it doesn't address the Arabs' claim that they were there first...

What's their proof?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 12:40:10 PM
^ what's your point? There are many Satmar Chasidim whose children don't celebrate Pesach.
Where does Satmar come into here?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 12:42:24 PM

Where does Satmar come into here?

They are the flip side of Zionism.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 12:43:44 PM
Jews were given a piece of land by an occupying power, it was also voted on by a majority (2/3) of the civilized nations in the world (UN). Israel then survived multiple (mostly) uninstigated wars and in so doing managed to procure more land. Based on recent history (Holocaust, pogroms etc) it is not unreasonable to think that if Jews did not have their own land they could easily be persecuted in the harshest of manners. For all of these reasons, many logical (non-religious) people conclude that Israel has a legitimate claim to their country.
That's not an answer to land they took by themselves.
They were never given Jerusalem, Golan and Juda & Samaria.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 12:44:33 PM
They are the flip side of Zionism.
Gotcha
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 12:46:38 PM
What's their proof?
That they were here before 1947?


What do you mean? Arabs lived in Israel for years. The reason the British were so strict with allowing Jews in was because they didn't want to aggravate the Arab population.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Dan on February 26, 2014, 12:48:11 PM
That's not an answer to land they took by themselves.
They were never given Jerusalem, Golan and Juda & Samaria.
Was America given Texas or California or are they occupied mexican territories?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 12:48:50 PM

That they were here before 1947?

So were Jews.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 12:50:39 PM
Was America given Texas or California or are they occupied mexican territories?
No.
And your point is?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 12:51:33 PM
So were Jews.
And suddenly the place has been overrun by a ton of Jewish refugees who casually declared a Jewish state and marginalized the local Arab population...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Dan on February 26, 2014, 12:52:06 PM
No.
And your point is?
Why is Judea occupied territory but Texas isn't?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Menachem613 on February 26, 2014, 12:52:10 PM

And suddenly the place has been overrun by a ton of Jewish refugees who casually declared a Jewish state and marginalized the local Arab population...

And your point is?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 12:53:21 PM
Why is Judea occupied territory but Texas isn't?
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/orbiter.png)
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
+1
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: meshugener on February 26, 2014, 01:00:08 PM
Why is Judea occupied territory but Texas isn't?
Both are. And I actually don't think it's wrong as long you as you have a valid claim for that.

I was responding to YankelDoodle who said the claim is based on the UN etc. - THAT is not an answer for J'lem and the West Bank. But yes there are other better answers (not that I agree with it).
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 01:02:02 PM
@yankl, even at the UN they claimed a religious heritage.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: damaxer91 on February 26, 2014, 01:34:15 PM
@yankl, even at the UN they claimed a religious heritage.

If you repeat a lie enough times, it begins to gain traction
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 02:41:07 PM
If you repeat a lie enough times, it begins to gain traction
Letter from Ben Gurion to General Charles de Gaulle. (-They used the torah to legitimize their claim to the land. They dont have any other reliable claim. These are well known facts.)
Quote
  And yet the entire world – or at any rate, the Christian world – considered Palestine on both sides of the Jordan to be a single country, which the Jewish people had hoped would someday belong to it again, as was promised by the Bible and the Prophets.  In the Book of Genesis it is written: “And the Lord appeared unto Abraham and said: Unto thy seed will I give this land” (Genesis, 12:7), and in Deuteronomy we read: “Then the Lord God will return thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee…And the Lord they God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shall possess it” (Deuteronomy, 30: 3-5).  The same belief can be found in the Prophets too, in Isaiah 56:8, Jeremiah 29:14, Ezekiel 11:17, Nehemiah 1:9.  This was the intention of the Balfour Declaration, which was affirmed by France, and by the League of Nations when it approved the British Mandate.  And yet, when the General Assembly decided to vote otherwise – we accepted, and we would have kept faith with the decision had the Arabs kept the peace.

It is certainly true that for thousands of years we believed in the vision of our prophets, and there are still many of us who believe in the coming of the Messiah, who will bring the Jews from all over the world, the living and the dead, to the Holy Land.  But this was never a “fervent and conquering ambition” – rather it was a fervent belief in our prophets’ vision of peace: “And national shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).  It is this psychic link to the Book of Books that constitutes the secret of our continued existence after the two destructions of our Temple by the Babylonians and the Romans, and after the hate with which the Christian nations surrounded us for sixteen hundred years.

When a British royal commission came to Jerusalem at the end of 1936 to weigh the future of the Mandate, I said to it: “Our Mandate is the Bible.”  It was from the Bible that we drew the strength to withstand a hostile world and to perpetuate our faith that we would one day return to our land and that peace would reign in the world.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 03:13:39 PM
Heres another quote from netanyahu at the UN in 2013:
Quote
"In our time the Biblical prophecies are being realized. As the prophet Amos said, they shall rebuild ruined cities and inhabit them. They shall plant vineyards and drink their wine. They shall till gardens and eat their fruit. And I will plant them upon their soil never to be uprooted again. Ladies and gentlemen, the people of Israel have come home never to be uprooted again."—Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu
The sheer chutzpah, to quote scripture that he does not believe in, while he is being mechallel shabbos and his son dates a norwegian is just astounding.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Dan on February 26, 2014, 03:33:48 PM
They "believe" in the history of it, there's more than enough archeological proof.

They just believe that times have changed and that the commandments no longer apply.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 03:36:43 PM
They "believe" in the history of it, there's more than enough archeological proof.

They just believe that times have changed and that the commandments no longer apply.
And after the Jews were exiled and Arabs lived there the concept of Israel being a jewish homeland doesn't apply either.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 03:44:29 PM
They "believe" in the history of it, there's more than enough archeological proof.

They just believe that times have changed and that the commandments no longer apply.
+1
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: good sam on February 26, 2014, 03:45:57 PM
The sheer chutzpah, to quote scripture that he does not believe in, while he is being mechallel shabbos and his son dates a norwegian is just astounding.
Why Chutzpa? Is it chutzpa for a Christian to quote the Bible?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 03:49:48 PM
Why Chutzpa? Is it chutzpa for a Christian to quote the Bible?
Not when he believes in it.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 03:53:26 PM
Not when he believes in it.
Since when did belief become a pre-requisite for quoting a source?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: good sam on February 26, 2014, 03:55:25 PM
Not when he believes in it.
Believes in it how? He doesn't keep its commandments.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 03:59:30 PM
Believes in it how? He doesn't keep its commandments.
The new testament is based on it so he is working thru that interpretation.

Since when did belief become a pre-requisite for quoting a source?
You would quote a source that you know isn't true?
Only if you're trying to pull a fast one.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 04:06:24 PM
The new testament is based on it so he is working thru that interpretation.
You would quote a source that you know isn't true?
Only if you're trying to pull a fast one.
One may believe it is true and still choose not to follow it. That's called free will.
Does not negate one's right or ability to quote the source.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 04:07:34 PM
One may believe it is true and still choose not to follow it. That's called free will.
Does not negate one's right or ability to quote the source.

Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 04:11:35 PM
Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...
Duh!
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 04:11:59 PM
Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...
+1
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 04:13:02 PM
Picking and choosing which parts apply and which don't sounds hypocritical to me...
I agree with you. However everyone of us does it (not to excuse it) its human nature- yet I would not call everyone a hypocrite for it. Additionally, its a quote within a speech there is also that fact, hes not giving over a dvar torah.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 04:18:21 PM
I agree with you. However everyone of us does it (not to excuse it) its human nature- yet I would not call everyone a hypocrite for it...
There's a difference between someone who misses out on a Mitzvah occasionally and someone who says B'Shitah "These parts of the Torah are irrelevant today but this part is"...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 04:20:01 PM
They "believe" in the history of it, there's more than enough archeological proof.

They just believe that times have changed and that the commandments no longer apply.
The fact that jews intermittently occupied israel throughout history is not debatable and also does not mean they have a right to the land.

The only way they prove a "right" is by quoting tanach that says that G-D, wrote that he will give it to the Jews.
This is sheer Chutzpa IMHO, they dont just think that commandments "dont apply", they make mockery of the Torah. Many of them are even atheists. 
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 04:22:53 PM
Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land and gave it to the Jewish people. After that point other countries attacked Israel and in the process some of their land was annexed (not unlike the land Germany lost after the Treaty of Versailles and countless other examples).

It doesn't take a genius to see the flaw in the argument everyone is trying to make against secular Zionism, stop trying so hard to prove that it can only be through biblical belief. Yes, biblical belief helps, especially when most of the relevant world was religious 60+ years ago. That does not negate the fact that we live in a world where might makes right.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 04:24:55 PM
Since when did belief become a pre-requisite for quoting a source?
They are not quoting a source. The Zionist claim to the land is based on the Torah that they think is a joke.
As quoted above, the torah is "their mandate to the land". Everything elses the Torah teaches is irrelevant.

Not sure why anyone here would be defending them. I assume that there are some religious zionist here, but at least they have a logical claim.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 04:27:03 PM
Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land
:o Wow!
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 04:29:05 PM
Maybe my point was misunderstood. Great Britain owned the land and gave it to the Jewish people. After that point other countries attacked Israel and in the process some of their land was annexed (not unlike the land Germany lost after the Treaty of Versailles and countless other examples).

It doesn't take a genius to see the flaw in the argument everyone is trying to make against secular Zionism, stop trying so hard to prove that it can only be through biblical belief. Yes, biblical belief helps, especially when most of the relevant world was religious 60+ years ago. That does not negate the fact that we live in a world where might makes right.

CMIIW but they don't use this to claim ownership. They go with the bible approach.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 04:32:33 PM
:o Wow!
You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
CMIIW but they don't use this to claim ownership. They go with the bible approach.
First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 04:41:44 PM
There's a difference between someone who misses out on a Mitzvah occasionally and someone who says B'Shitah "These parts of the Torah are irrelevant today but this part is"...
100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.
First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.
They are not quoting a source. The Zionist claim to the land is based on the Torah that they think is a joke.
As quoted above, the torah is "their mandate to the land". Everything elses the Torah teaches is irrelevant.

Not sure why anyone here would be defending them. I assume that there are some religious zionist here, but at least they have a logical claim.
I am not defending their religious choices. It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.
You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.
+1
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 04:45:13 PM
100%. But IMHO that should not have bearing of their right or ability to quote Torah. We are not a banishing religion who damn people for not being shomer torah and mitzvos.
I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.
It is not up to me to prosecute them nor defend their actions. I am simply stating that they have a right to quote Torah independently from how they choose to practice.
Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 04:48:06 PM
You can pick one word and overreact to it or you can address the substance of the argument. Great Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire and thereby gained the right to do as they saw fit with the land. Please show me where in history or international law there is any indication contrary to that. The fact that the British had their hands full and had no interest in permanently occupying a land of people that did care for them does not change their control of it.
Ok, lets go with your argument. The Jews are basically conquerors that managed to find favor in the eyes of the british. "The mightiest win"? Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.

No one is making theses arguments, they are inherently dangerous.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 04:48:26 PM
I wasn't bashing anyone for how they live their lives, I was bashing their claim as hypocritical.Not if they make fun of [parts of] it and those who believe [those parts] to be true...
I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 05:04:13 PM
I still do not understand why one should negate the other? Do I agree or condone that behavior? Absolutely not
Does that type of disgusting behavior negate their right to quote scripture? I do not believe so.
And again I AGREE that their behaviors are wrong I just think the two are mutually exclusive.
If someone says the Torah is a bunch of fairy tales (R"L), than how can you use it to base your claims for land?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: CountValentine on February 26, 2014, 05:22:24 PM
Is the argument here that the Jews right to Israel is based on the Torah?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
Is the argument here that the Jews right to Israel is based on the Torah?
You always seem to just get it!
 The Jews are always haggling, cant deal with them.  ;)
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: CountValentine on February 26, 2014, 05:29:54 PM
You always seem to just get it!
 The Jews are always haggling, cant deal with them.  ;)
Since we are haggling can I get the Via Dolorosa for the Catholics?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: Achas Veachas on February 26, 2014, 05:36:20 PM
Since we are haggling can I get the Via Dolorosa for the Catholics?
Not if Hamas has their way...
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 05:38:50 PM
Ok, lets go with your argument. The Jews are basically conquerors that managed to find favor in the eyes of the british. "The mightiest win"? Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.

No one is making theses arguments, they are inherently dangerous.
No, targeting innocent civilians is wrong according to all moral and legal arguments. Declaring war over a disagreement is common and is settled on the battlefield. The war generally continues until one of the sides recognizes that they are losing and chooses to make piece before they suffer greater casualties. By that point some land may have been conquered and the victorious country keeps it, "to the victor goes the spoils". The end.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 06:03:12 PM
This no hurting of civilians /geneva convention is a fairly new concept, has almost no historical precedence. Thats all the jews have to stand on?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 06:11:30 PM
This no hurting of civilians /geneva convention is a fairly new concept, has almost no historical precedence. Thats all the jews have to stand on?

That's simply not true... source? Civilian life has been respected (at the very least not specifically targeted) throughout all major wars of recent times).

The point is Israel doesn't need anything else to stand on! They are the current inhabitants of the land and have rebuffed attack after attack. What does America have to stand on? You are trying so hard to find a reason to say that it can only be based on the Torah that you are not even thinking straight. Like I said, the Bible story is great, it only enhances the claim. But it is not necessary for thinking people to recognize Israel.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 06:15:16 PM
First of all, "they" is a large and diverse group. Secondly, if they claim the right to the land based on the Bible, is it so difficult to see the Torah as a history book? I'm not going to get into the discussion about how dare they quote Torah if they don't follow it. Yes, it's ironic and maybe slightly hypocritical. Get over it. Seriously.
1) "They" are not a diverse group. "They" are secular Zionists.
2) If the Torah is C"V merely a history book then it really has no bearing on current events. The claim is based on a promise from G-D to the Jewish people. According to you, that's nothing more than an old treaty. Let the Ottomans/Turkey claim ownership because they once owned it too.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 06:16:57 PM
That's simply not true... source? Civilian life has been respected (at the very least not specifically targeted) throughout all major wars of recent times).

The point is Israel doesn't need anything else to stand on! They are the current inhabitants of the land and have rebuffed attack after attack. What does America have to stand on? You are trying so hard to find a reason to say that it can only be based on the Torah that you are not even thinking straight. Like I said, the Bible story is great, it only enhances the claim. But it is not necessary for thinking people to recognize Israel.
I'm asking you again. How often do you hear the Israelis use that claim?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 06:27:57 PM
1) "They" are not a diverse group. "They" are secular Zionists.
2) If the Torah is C"V merely a history book then it really has no bearing on current events. The claim is based on a promise from G-D to the Jewish people. According to you, that's nothing more than an old treaty. Let the Ottomans/Turkey claim ownership because they once owned it too.
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Liberal_Zionism For a list of some of the many forms of Zionism.
2) For secular Zionists the claim about the biblical significance of Israel is less about what G-d promised the Jews and more about the historical, sociological significance of the land for the Jews.

I'm asking you again. How often do you hear the Israelis use that claim?
My answer was more in response to those who argue that the secular Zionists have no argument for the land and that the only conceivable argument is that G-d promised it to the Jews. I am simply pointing out that they don't have to believe in the Torah to still feel a nationalistic right to the land.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: DBK on February 26, 2014, 06:28:44 PM

If someone says the Torah is a bunch of fairy tales (R"L), than how can you use it to base your claims for land?
C"V obviously that's an awful thing to say and to promote that belief. However that may be a result of ignorance or general lack of awareness.
Even within Halacha we don't deem someone who is non observant as a rasha there are many different factors that go into a person and his religious observance.
I would further posit that perhaps their attachment to the land and quoting Torah to support that is a positive because atleast they have that connection to their people. And since we are not an all or nothing religion why should their other beliefs preclude them from quoting at the very least the small part that they do believe.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: avadah on February 26, 2014, 06:34:30 PM
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Liberal_Zionism For a list of some of the many forms of Zionism.
2) For secular Zionists the claim about the biblical significance of Israel is less about what G-d promised the Jews and more about the historical, sociological significance of the land for the Jews.
My answer was more in response to those who argue that the secular Zionists have no argument for the land and that the only conceivable argument is that G-d promised it to the Jews. I am simply pointing out that they don't have to believe in the Torah to still feel a nationalistic right to the land.
I'm simply pointing out that the secular Zionists (they) tend to base it on the Torah and if it's just based on history it won't get you very far. What if the great-grandchildren of the people who used to live where you live show up at your door one day and say it's their house because generations back they owned it?

BTW, were you able to name all 6 types of Zionism before you saw that on Wikipedia?  ;)
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 26, 2014, 06:38:34 PM
I'm simply pointing out that the secular Zionists (they) tend to base it on the Torah and if it's just based on history it won't get you very far. What if the great-grandchildren of the people who used to live where you live show up at your door one day and say it's their house because generations back they owned it?

BTW, were you able to name all 6 types of Zionism before you saw that on Wikipedia?  ;)
I hear what your saying, and if that is their only claim to the land it would indeed be a weak claim. I believe that inherent in their claim is the argument that I made.

And no, I most definitely could not name them all!
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 26, 2014, 06:46:49 PM
That's simply not true... source? Civilian life has been respected (at the very least not specifically targeted) throughout all major wars of recent times).


Civilians have been slaughtered by the millions in all wars throughout history. Traditionally more soldiers were killed because the civilians were hard to reach with a bow and arrow. Still, civilians were a fair target. The last century saw the more civilian casualties of war than ever before. Millions in the world wars and as casualties of WMD's.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 27, 2014, 06:32:05 AM
Civilians have been slaughtered by the millions in all wars throughout history. Traditionally more soldiers were killed because the civilians were hard to reach with a bow and arrow. Still, civilians were a fair target. The last century saw the more civilian casualties of war than ever before. Millions in the world wars and as casualties of WMD's.
Nope. Every war fought by civilized countries has respected civilian life. Until very recent times war was traditionally fought on the battlefield thus sparing the chance for civilian casualties. Even when fought in city streets, such as parts of WWII everything possible was done to spare innocent lives. The only examples to the contrary were desperation moves by uncivilized societies (Syria, Terrorists, Nazi Germany etc) these are famous because they are the exception to the rule.

This is all completely irrelevant to the heart of the discussion.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: CountValentine on February 27, 2014, 06:36:28 AM
Nope. Every war fought by civilized countries has respected civilian life.
Mỹ Lai?
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 27, 2014, 07:14:24 AM
"Lives deliberately extinguished by politically motivated carnage":

    167,000,000 to 175,000,000
    Including:
        War Dead: 87,500,000
            Military war dead:
                33,500,000
            Civilian war dead:
                54,000,000
        Not-war Dead: 80,000,000
            Communist oppression:
                60,000,000

Just way of mark. More civilians than soldiers were killed in the last century.
Title: Re: Zionist Mindset
Post by: YankyDoodle on February 27, 2014, 07:51:13 AM
Fine, so according to you, the palestinian uprising against the mighty Jewish conquerors is one hundred percent legitimate. If C'V they become "mightier" they have a legitimate right to kick the Jews out.
Your argument was that if someone wins a war and conquers land as a result it is equivalent to terrorist attacks on civilians. You then went in to say that civilians have always been major targets of war (which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion). I simply stated that civilians were not the major target (again not the main point of discussion). Yes civilians get hurt during war, especially wars with rockets and the like. This doesn't prove that it is "ok" to target civilians.

Mỹ Lai?
There are unfortunately sad exceptions. Generally speaking the civilized world has looked at these as horrible lapses of judgement and often the perpetrators were held responsible in some form or another. Again the point is that this is not an accepted norm and cannot be equated to a war of self-defense nor even a war of aggression.