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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: yoshi on March 09, 2014, 03:58:11 PM

Title: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yoshi on March 09, 2014, 03:58:11 PM
Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yoshi on March 09, 2014, 04:02:05 PM
Assifah today in New York.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: casualchurner on March 09, 2014, 04:36:15 PM
Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.
Maybe we should rephrase the question: "Should yeshiva bochurim in Israel be pulled out of the beis medrash where they learn all day and be forcefully inducted into the army?"
What do you think??
Forgive me for being blunt but I can't see how anyone, with a chareidi torahdig upbringing, can justify what the Israeli government is trying to do.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ual902 on March 09, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
Well if your not really in yeshiva and DDFing all day then yes go to the army, I heard the army is allot of fun plus you'll learn allot about life, my undestanding there are allot of BSers in Israel who avoid the army.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: avremie on March 09, 2014, 05:13:25 PM
If they were to get all chareidim in the army the obvious next step would be the chareidi girls that would definitely be against halacha so let's be one step ahead.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 09, 2014, 05:17:35 PM

Maybe we should rephrase the question: "Should yeshiva bochurim in Israel be pulled out of the beis medrash where they learn all day and be forcefully inducted into the army?"
What do you think??
Forgive me for being blunt but I can't see how anyone, with a chareidi torahdig upbringing, can justify what the Israeli government is trying to do.

Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Super Speed on March 09, 2014, 05:26:05 PM
Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.
So for the sizable minority we shouldn't fight the draft???????
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: rots5 on March 09, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
ask r' shtienman…. i think he already answered
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 09, 2014, 06:02:48 PM
Are all charedi bochurim actually learning in yeshiva? A friend of mine in kolel there tells me there are plenty of ppl who come once a month just to be counted.

Of course the majority are learning, but there is a sizable minority.
There are draft dodgers everywhere, should the army stop giving Pturs to mentally unstable people because half of Tzfon Tel Aviv is on KaBaN?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: lfas25 on March 09, 2014, 06:06:06 PM
Was thinking it would be a good topic of discussion.

Depends do you get any sign up points or miles?
Is there an AF?
Could you get multiple sign up bonuses?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: casualchurner on March 09, 2014, 06:08:34 PM
Well if your not really in yeshiva and DDFing all day then yes go to the army, I heard the army is allot of fun plus you'll learn allot about life, my undestanding there are allot of BSers in Israel who avoid the army.
Yes, granted there are guys who get a dichui (deferment) from the army and they're sitting around and doing nothing all day. But for the guys who are actually sitting and learning (whom I believe are the majority), they should be allowed to continue doing just that!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 09, 2014, 06:25:35 PM
Yes, granted there are guys who get a dichui (deferment) from the army and they're sitting around and doing nothing all day. But for the guys who are actually sitting and learning (whom I believe are the majority), they should be allowed to continue doing just that!

To play devil's advocate and get slightly off topic, should they then be allowed to collect any sort of stipend from the government if they refuse to contribute economically/physically/etc.?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: tzvicoco on March 09, 2014, 07:20:34 PM
While I definitely see the value of learning, I do believe that every young person in Israel should be required to give back... Personally I think that bachurim should serve the country for 5-6 years during their bein hazmanim (in av and Nissan), and that both be in hazmanims should be extended a few weeks so they end up serving for 2-3 months of the year. It doesn't have to be in the army (that would be difficult because of the training), but working in hospitals and other  governmental establishments would be sufficient.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: asd on March 09, 2014, 07:30:26 PM
This is something for the gedolim to decide and if you cant understand that you will never understand what is wrong with drafting them.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 07:34:37 PM
To play devil's advocate and get slightly off topic, should they then be allowed to collect any sort of stipend from the government if they refuse to contribute economically/physically/etc.?
Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 09, 2014, 07:35:33 PM

So for the sizable minority we shouldn't fight the draft???????

The draft is not of everyone. There is a sizable amount of yeshiva exemptions. They're not suggesting that all Haredim go to the army.
They want to limit the number of exemptions.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 09, 2014, 07:39:16 PM

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 07:44:04 PM
FWIW, welfare recipients are required to work in cleaning streets, etc. in NY, unless they are deemed physically unable to work.
-9
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 09, 2014, 07:53:44 PM

Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

After a while, they will run out of other people's money.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 09, 2014, 08:07:09 PM
Are the "stipends" any different than the social programs in the USA? Would you ask foodstamp recipients to "give back" by doing community service, or would that be unfair?

The sole requirement to receive government programs should be poverty. Not some social status, situation or contribution. That would be prejudice.

Two things:

First, our communities often rail against various minorities who abuse governmental programs, but this is partaking in a grand way.  "Do  as I say, not as I do?"

Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 08:14:02 PM
try suggesting that poor minority communities in the US to sweep the streets.

Very extreme. Even for right wingers.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 09, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
But it's not expected of the majority.  Serving in the Israeli military is.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 08:18:43 PM
After a while, they will run out of other people's money.
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2014, 08:26:04 PM
Israels uses VAT tax system. Everyone pays in.
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 08:26:55 PM
Not if the government is funding the purchases in the first place
right. That was a weak one ^-^
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2014, 08:30:22 PM
Second,  there's no social expectation here of serving our country; no draft, no public service requirement, etc., so you can't even compare.

Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 09, 2014, 08:41:03 PM
Very simple - the charedi world prefers living somewhere where they can learn torah, than living in Israel, so the Israeli government decided in 1948 that since they won't live in Israel if they have to serve in the army instead of learning, they will allow them to live in Israel without serving. Thus there is no social expectation whatsoever.

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.

Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2014, 08:48:59 PM
Coupled with the huge increase in the Chareidi population.


Since the increase in population is not decreasing the non-charedi Israelis, it increases the benefit to the state of charedi presence, yet only very marginally increases the burden on the military (they are primarily defending land, not people).

Also, source that they've been exempt since 1948?
It's the type of thing you don't need a source for, but here's a Wikipedia article quoting March 9 (interesting date coincidence) as the day the exemption started. http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/תורתו_אומנותו
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: avremie on March 09, 2014, 10:05:09 PM
While we all agree that bochrim should not be removed from yeshiva I think its very disturbing the disrespect some charedim show to those that do serve. They actually risk their lives protecting them too. Imagine we in American would show the same attitude towards our military.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 10:10:24 PM
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 10:12:57 PM
We never showed our contempt for them before this incitement by the secular and the secular lite started.

We all know how everyone was talking about them until this.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2014, 10:14:04 PM
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.
None of that would be true if there was a critical mass of charedi soldiers.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: tzvicoco on March 09, 2014, 10:20:07 PM
The army is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. Even leaving zionism aside, a frum Jew even if he doesn't learn, shouldn't set foot there.
The world is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. And frum Jews have the opportunity and duty to make things better. Again, I support the right and obligation to learn, but to not give back to the country and the organization that defends everybody within it is a chilul Hashem. There is room for compromise. See my earlier comment about bein hazmanim.
That being said, for a frum Jew that has enough bitachon I think the army is a wonderful thing and indeed preferable.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
None of that would be true if there was a critical mass of charedi soldiers.

We all know what takes precedence in the army even for mizrachists. The commander or halacha?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 10:30:57 PM
The world is full of znus, chilul Shabbos, kfira and all sorts of aveiros. And frum Jews have the opportunity and duty to make things better. Again, I support the right and obligation to learn, but to not give back to the country and the organization that defends everybody within it is a chilul Hashem. There is room for compromise. See my earlier comment about bein hazmanim.
That being said, for a frum Jew that has enough bitachon I think the army is a wonderful thing and indeed preferable.

We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: tzvicoco on March 09, 2014, 10:38:19 PM
We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.
I know many a frum Jew to come out of the army just as frum. But to you I suppose that's just hearsay or a lie or a few exceptions. If there was a way to guarantee a charedi environment in national service, would you still be against it? Do you see a value in giving back?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 09, 2014, 10:48:41 PM
We all know what takes precedence in the army even for mizrachists. The commander or halacha?
in halacha as well the Dr's decision trumps the Rabbi
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 11:02:18 PM
in halacha as well the Dr's decision trumps the Rabbi

Well, no.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 09, 2014, 11:08:30 PM
We do all that we can to be machzir bitshuva as many as we can and it's evidenced by the multitudes of bt's. We don't have to join their swamp. Leaving aside that we aren't and never were zionists even if we weren't openly hostile.

Would you care to elaborate on what swamp are you referring to?
Who is this 'we' in relation to 'bts'?
Bemakom baal tshevua omed, ein tzadik omed.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
The swamp is where they were before they became bt's. Now they're the cream of the crop.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 11:21:42 PM
While we all agree that bochrim should not be removed from yeshiva I think its very disturbing the disrespect some charedim show to those that do serve. They actually risk their lives protecting them too. Imagine we in American would show the same attitude towards our military.
what you talking about? The chareidim are the ones called "blood sucking vermin, who have too many children", no one disrespects the chilonim. The chareidim just want to be left alone. Its called status quo. Lapid and his modox crony hate us.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: tzvicoco on March 09, 2014, 11:24:47 PM
The swamp is where they were before they became bt's. Now they're the cream of the crop.
no one disrespects the chilonim.
Seems like Moshe123 invalidates your point imho
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 11:43:01 PM
Seems like Moshe123 invalidates your point imho
nah, he's just responding to people implying that the chareidim are the race baiters and instigators of this hatred.  An absolute fallacy. 
Chareidim have no interest in bashing the chilonim. Only when they are victims of attempted social engineering by people who can't fa'gin do they respond this way.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 09, 2014, 11:46:31 PM
nah, he's just responding to people implying that the chareidim are the race baiters and instigators of this hatred.  An absolute fallacy. 
Chareidim have no interest in bashing the chilonim. Only when they are victims of attempted social engineering by people who can't fa'gin do they respond this way.

C'mon, you know as well as I that Chareidim are generally elitist xenophobes.  Not all of them go out and disrespect others and preach their feelings/beliefs, but 99% of them feel that way.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 11:54:11 PM
I say it loud.
The chilonim, the kofrim bashem, the kofrim ba'ikar, the mechalelei Shabbos, the bo'alei nidos, the megalei arayos, the ochlei bsar hachazir.
Yuck!!
הלא משנאיך ה' אשנא!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 09, 2014, 11:54:35 PM
C'mon, you know as well as I that Chareidim are generally elitist xenophobes.  Not all of them go out and disrespect others and preach their feelings/beliefs, but 99% of them feel that way.
No.
Obviously we know that we are doing the right thing and are extremely confident and comfortable with our way of life. The feelings towards other Jews who eat cheeseburgers on yom Kippur are feelings of pity. Hate is required by halacha in certain unique situations.
This cannot be compared with the rampant, seething hatred expressed by the Israeli media and public. It is normal to call charedim blood suckers and other derogatory remarks.
The whole social engineering agenda is born out of the hatred to our way of life.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 11:55:18 PM
Of course, I don't run around screaming it at them, but it's the truth. I love every Jew like myself and therefore donate a lot of money for kiruv.
But their current lifestyle and kfira? Yuck!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 09, 2014, 11:58:19 PM
The mizrachi think that by being kofrim apologists, they are mekarev Jews to Judaism.
The opposite is happening. Their youth (and elders) are going the way of the reform plus their visceral hatred of a ehrliche yid, while the most bt's become through the Charedim. The fake stuff doesn't interest a chiloni if he wants to become religious.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ual902 on March 10, 2014, 12:07:18 AM
The mizrachi think that by being kofrim apologists, they are mekarev Jews to Judaism.
The opposite is happening. Their youth (and elders) are going the way of the reform plus their visceral hatred of a ehrliche yid, while the most bt's become through the Charedim. The fake stuff doesn't interest a chiloni if he wants to become religious.

What are you talking about? I'm not mizrachi and not defending Mizrachi but just walk into Footsteps or Hillel in TLV  and see how many Satmars and Charedim  left. WAY more then Mizrachim leaving and when Chatredim or Satmrs leave the fold, they just don't leave quietly, they make sure everyone knows about it with their tatoos etc!!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: sillypainter on March 10, 2014, 12:08:18 AM
What are you talking about? I'm not mizrachi and not defending Mizrachi but just walk into Footsteps or Hillel in TLV  and see how many Satmars and Charedim  left. WAY more then Mizrachim leaving!!

Because they don't need to leave if they want to leave. They left already.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:19:09 AM
The lifestyle of a mizrachist these days is already leaving the fold. Just because part of them are accelerating in abandoning yiddishkeit, doesn't put the rest in a positive light.

When all your "Rabbis" and "Gedolim" can be summed up by Drukman and co., it's not hard to see how much Judaism is left.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 12:22:16 AM
I say it loud.
The chilonim, the kofrim bashem, the kofrim ba'ikar, the mechalelei Shabbos, the bo'alei nidos, the megalei arayos, the ochlei bsar hachazir.
Yuck!!
הלא משנאיך ה' אשנא!

Yep. Noone disrespects the chilonim....  [/sarcasm]
Do you understand that 99% of the chilonim are tinok shenishba?
The fact that they live in and protect EY, most keep Yom kippur, etc. is a tremendous zchus?
I could go on, but this is exactly the sort of attitude that creates sina between the haredim and chilonim.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 12:25:45 AM
No.
Obviously we know that we are doing the right thing and are extremely confident and comfortable with our way of life. The feelings towards other Jews who eat cheeseburgers on yom Kippur are feelings of pity. Hate is required by halacha in certain unique situations.
This cannot be compared with the rampant, seething hatred expressed by the Israeli media and public. It is normal to call charedim blood suckers and other derogatory remarks.
The whole social engineering agenda is born out of the hatred to our way of life.

I applaud the sentiment, but I don't think your feelings conform with the majority of Chareidim [as evidenced in this very thread].  And I never said "hate."  I truly think there is disrespect in both directions.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ual902 on March 10, 2014, 12:26:37 AM
The lifestyle of a mizrachist these days is already leaving the fold. Just because part of them are accelerating in abandoning yiddishkeit, doesn't put the rest in a positive light.

When all your "Rabbis" and "Gedolim" can be summed up by Drukman and co., it's not hard to see how much Judaism is left.

More Chasidim Leave torah Judiaism  and end up hating torah and yidishkiet then Mizrachnkim \ Modern Orthodox this is a KNOWN fact.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:27:57 AM
Just because they are tinokos shenishbu doesn't make their behavior any less disgusting and rebellious against the almighty.
Their share in hell might be a little less, but that's about it.

They don't protect Eretz Yisrael. This is the kfira of כחי ועוצם ידי.
See the gemara of עומדות היו רגלינו.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:30:34 AM
More Chasidim Leave torah Judiaism  and end up hating torah and yidishkiet then Mizrachnkim \ Modern Orthodox this is a KNOWN fact.

First of all, this is first grade baloney.
Second, the mizrachists are already halfway not observant.
There is not a mitzvah that they don't have 10 million kulos.
I won't even start how embarrassed I am to go to their simchos and see the pritzus that goes on.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ual902 on March 10, 2014, 12:31:21 AM
Just because they are tinokos shenishbu doesn't make their behavior any less disgusting and rebellious against the almighty.
Their share in hell might be a little less, but that's about it.

They don't protect Eretz Yisrael. This is the kfira of כחי ועוצם ידי.
See the gemara of עומדות היו רגלינו.

Do us a favor just SHUT UP already, Siyog Lachama Shtika, We us Chabad, Aish HAtorah, Breslov, Ohr Sameach and others will CONTINUE to be Meklarev these tinokos shenishbu as so many many have been chozer be tshiva Baruch hashem even though so many Satmars are LEAVING and hating Torah.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:36:20 AM
Do us a favor just SHUT UP already, Siyog Lachama Shtika, We us Chabad, Aish HAtorah, Breslov, Ohr Sameach and others will CONTINUE to be Meklarev these tinokos shenishbu as so many many have been chozer be tshiva Baruch hashem even though so many Satmars are LEAVING and hating Torah.

I am not Satmar and I love my fellow Jew like myself at the same time as I hate their anti-Torah lifestyle. I donate a lot to kiruv because of that.
And none of these groups that you mentioned are mizrachi.
The mizrachi would rather have richuk organizations to finish off whatever yiddishkeit they still have.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 12:40:37 AM
I am not Satmar and I love my fellow Jew like myself at the same time as I hate their anti-Torah lifestyle. I donate a lot to kiruv because of that.
And none of these groups that you mentioned are mizrachi.
The mizrachi would rather have richuk organizations to finish off whatever yiddishkeit they still have.

Sure you do.

We never showed our contempt for them before this incitement by the secular and the secular lite started.

We all know how everyone was talking about them until this.

I say it loud.
The chilonim, the kofrim bashem, the kofrim ba'ikar, the mechalelei Shabbos, the bo'alei nidos, the megalei arayos, the ochlei bsar hachazir.
Yuck!!
הלא משנאיך ה' אשנא!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:45:06 AM
I don't see a single contradiction.
I never even said a bad word against the mizrachi until the last ordeal. I was too much dan l'kaf zchus their behavior, but their actions in the past few years have proven me wrong. They detached themselves from frum Jewry and are going the way of the reform.
I pray every day that they should do teshuvah.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 12:51:23 AM
I don't see a single contradiction.
I never even said a bad word against the mizrachi until the last ordeal. I was too much dan l'kaf zchus their behavior, but their actions in the past few years have proven me wrong. They detached themselves from frum Jewry and are going the way of the reform.
I pray every day that they should do teshuvah.

I'm not sure how you can love someone you show contempt for...
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ual902 on March 10, 2014, 12:52:07 AM
I am not Satmar and I love my fellow Jew like myself at the same time as I hate their anti-Torah lifestyle. I donate a lot to kiruv because of that.
And none of these groups that you mentioned are mizrachi.
The mizrachi would rather have richuk organizations to finish off whatever yiddishkeit they still have.

No one knows here what your talking about, there are many many Professionals in Teaneck and Engelwood, NJ the Five Towns all whom are Doctors, Dentists  and Lawyers and went to Harvard, Yale and other top name schools and are Kovea Itim La torah, wake up 5am goto a shiur and Daven with a Minyan,  they are in your definition Mizrachniks, at the same time they are  Kiovea Itim LaTorah, they are VERY well versed in G'Mara more then MANY Chasidim and   they support the IDF plus many Kiruv organizations such as Aish, chabad Breslov and more, so WHAT?! Big DEAL!!!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 12:57:24 AM
No one knows here what your talking about, there are many many Professionals in Teaneck and Engelwood, NJ the Five Towns all whom are Doctors, Dentists  and Lawyers and went to Harvard, Yale and other top name schools and are Kovea Itim La torah, wake up 5am goto a shiur and Daven with a Minyan,  they are in your definition Mizrachniks, at the same time they are  Kiovea Itim LaTorah, they are VERY well versed in G'Mara more then MANY Chasidim and   they support the IDF plus many Kiruv organizations such as Aish, chabad Breslov and more, so WHAT?! Big DEAL!!!

In the United States it's a big mish mash. Besides don't even get me started on how these "frum" women dress and how many of them are embarrassed by their Judaism and remove their kipot.
In Israel, the lines are clear. The vast majority of the mizrachists are sonei hadas and joined with all sonei hHashem to implement whatever gezeiros they can on the frum Jewry. They have gone against ALL gedolim.
What is left are a few faux "Rabbis"  that are שנה ופירש and let hear דברי אפיקורסות every other day.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 01:00:16 AM
And, good night.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yoshi on March 10, 2014, 01:20:15 AM
I learnt in a sichah of the rebbe. That the din of a tinok shenishba is אונס and אונס רחמנא פטרי. This being the case, the שמחה which hashem has when a secular yid does a mitzvah is unbelievable. And whatever they don't do isn't their fault....good night.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Chaikel on March 10, 2014, 03:48:41 AM
It's pretty amazing how this issue has revealed people who pretend to be frum Jews, as full blown apikorsim.
Ikvusa Dmishichasa?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 10, 2014, 07:46:53 AM
More Chasidim Leave torah Judiaism  and end up hating torah and yidishkiet then Mizrachnkim \ Modern Orthodox this is a KNOWN fact.
Known fact #1: Most things stated as known facts are untrue and started to advance the speaker's agenda.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 08:15:13 AM

It's pretty amazing how this issue has revealed people who pretend to be frum Jews, as full blown apikorsim.
Ikvusa Dmishichasa?

I don't think Moishe123 is an Apikores. He's just misguided.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 09:10:21 AM
WAY more then Mizrachim leaving and when Chatredim or Satmrs leave the fold, they just don't leave quietly, they make sure everyone knows about it with their tatoos etc!!
More Chasidim Leave torah Judiaism  and end up hating torah and yidishkiet then Mizrachnkim \ Modern Orthodox this is a KNOWN fact.
Not true at all you just think so because they're the ones making the noise
Their share in hell might be a little less, but that's about it.
Tinok shenshba has no hell. Be careful, you are close to kefira in schar v'onesh.
What is left are a few faux "Rabbis"  that are שנה ופירש and let hear דברי אפיקורסות every other day.
When all your "Rabbis" and "Gedolim" can be summed up by Drukman and co., it's not hard to see how much Judaism is left.
It is beyond debate that there are true talmidi chachomim in the mizrachi world. You can ask any charedi rosh yeshiva in Israel. היזהר בגחלתן
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 09:11:07 AM
And Btw Mr Moshe this is all a result of reading too much yated neeman, which is why I will not allow that paper in my home.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: rots5 on March 10, 2014, 09:23:13 AM
It's pretty amazing how this issue has revealed people who pretend to be frum Jews, as full blown apikorsim.
Ikvusa Dmishichasa?
+1 In general. People in america have no idea what they are saying it seems like.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 09:23:35 AM
And Btw Mr Moshe this is all a result of reading too much yated neeman, which is why I will not allow that paper in my home.

Neither have I....
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 09:24:50 AM
It is beyond debate that there are true talmidi chachomim in the mizrachi world. You can ask any charedi rosh yeshiva in Israel. היזהר בגחלתן

Just because they know some Torah, doesn't mean that they have yiras shamayim.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: tzvicoco on March 10, 2014, 09:45:35 AM
Just because they know some Torah, doesn't mean that they have yiras shamayim.
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 09:46:24 AM

Just because they know some Torah, doesn't mean that they have yiras shamayim.

That applies to chareidim too.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 09:47:21 AM
t's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
Name 1
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 09:51:29 AM

And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.

Rupture and Reconstruction covers this issue in depth.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 10:04:08 AM
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.

The modx in my family didn't stay at the center.
3/4 of my family are like that. They are all those that became kalye in America.
They come from chassidish Galician families and from very frum Lithuanian families.
Almost all modox that I'm in contact with daily are like that.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 10:04:50 AM
That applies to chareidim too.

But we're talking about the gedolei yisrael now. Not your random Rabbi.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 10:05:39 AM

The modx in my family didn't stay at the center.
3/4 of my family are like that. They are all those that became kalye in America.
They come from chassidish Galician families and from very frum Lithuanian families.
Almost all modox that I'm in contact with daily are like that.

Your family should check their Yichus.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:06:13 AM
Name 1

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 10:09:01 AM

Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.

Get ready for no true Scotsman.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 10:10:46 AM
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not. 

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:12:58 AM
Tefach Be'Isha Erva.

Point proven.  What happened to shok b'isha erva?  Or was that not strict enough?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 10:13:10 AM
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Tefach Be'Isha Erva.
Do you realize how stupid that is?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Sport on March 10, 2014, 10:14:50 AM
It seems this thread has gone way OT. This argument is so sad😢. Of course not everyone's going to agree on what's considered the ideal way to practice yidishkiet, but to put down entire sects of Jews on a public forum doesn't seem to serve any constructive purpose.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:15:11 AM
Who will you find saying it's deoriasa?

Moshe123 lol.

On a serious note, I don't think he meant actually deoirasia.  I think he meant that people treat it as if it is, and if you don't abide you're a kofer.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 10, 2014, 10:17:49 AM
And just because they don't dress the way you do doesn't mean they don't.
Until the emergence of self-conscious orthodoxy in the 1800's, the distinctions we make about types of Jews were unheard of. But with the reform movement came the fear of movement to the left, so ultra-orthodoxy came to overcompensate for that threat. But those that stayed in the center, the ones that you now call "modern orthodox," were the ones that remained unchanged. So it's not that we have unlimited Kulas, it's just that you have unnecessary chumras that are improperly declared as deoraysa.
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 10, 2014, 10:22:51 AM
Separate seating at simchas.
Women wearing stockings.

Those are the first two that crossed my mind.  Now obviously you can find some Rov that will say it's halacha, but you can find plenty of others that will say it's not.
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 10:23:41 AM

This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

This is gonna be fun.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 10:25:11 AM

Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?

...and Moshe Rabeinu wore a shtreimel.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:26:07 AM
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.

That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 10, 2014, 10:26:29 AM
This is gonna be fun.
Im having a blast already  :D
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 10:27:23 AM
Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 
If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 10:28:36 AM
Issaac Hutner,
Might as well mention his 4 years in France and send us all to learn Psychology in University
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:28:48 AM
Im having a blast already  :D

Me too  :)

You and I disagree on most everything, but at least you usually stay pretty level-headed and articulate. 
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 10:36:54 AM
This is the MO argument justifying their way of life. They invented new hashkafos in the last hundred years, most of them based on the ruach of "enlightenment", like using secular names, being secularly educated, embracing non jewish culture, less respect for limud hatora etc etc. While the chareidi hashkafa has not changed since we were in egypt. We separate ourselves from the nations and put an emphasis on limud hatora. Nothing new at all. Yes, some of the yeshivos are structured a little differently, this is not "reconstruction" like the MO have done.
Was there a YU in Bavel? Did jews look like goyim 500 years ago? 

They call themselves "Modern", a term that by definition means out with the old and in with the new. As if they can improve anything over generations of ehrliche yidden.



Well said.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 10:37:51 AM

If not, it was because they were segregated to ghettos. The black hats we wear today come from the goyim.

Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 10:40:35 AM
Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?
The bigger question is who will finally put an end to it
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 10, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Yidden sat separately at every event for thousands of years. The gemara and poskim are full of examples. Just because there was a terrible influence of enlightenment in europe over the last 200 years that caused yiddishkeit to regress does not mean that it is the right thing.

Check out the book A Divine Madness by R A miller, he describes the terrible state of jewry in europe pre war. This was far from the normal state of yiddishkeit. The MO are nostalgic for those terrible years?
That's BS.  Yeshivish right-wing Judaism is a construct that is just as new.  Plenty of 20th century gedolim went by secular names when not in their yeshiva setting.  I.e. Paul Medlowits, Issaac Hutner, and plenty others.  It's completely disingenuous to pretend that your lifestyle is the same as jews 1,000 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

PS:  R' Shmuel Kamenetsky's wedding had mixed seating.
The early 1900 were a terrible time. Anyone with a frum name was scorned. Lets not go back to those days. Virtually all families had children mechalley shabbos.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yoshi on March 10, 2014, 10:46:09 AM
Should we change the thread name to, are modern orthodox Jews actually Jewish? :p
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Aaaron on March 10, 2014, 10:47:22 AM
The early 1900 were a terrible time. Anyone with a frum name was scorned. Lets not go back to those days. Virtually all families had children mechalley shabbos.

That doesn't change my point.  Current right-wing orthodoxy is a modern construct.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 10:57:30 AM
Someone I know said once:
The premise of chasidus is that you're only allowed to change mesora once :)
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Which makes me wonder, who had the chutzpah to challenge our mesorah and don fedoras?

It really bothers you.
Nobody here mentioned anything about the levush.
Jews always dressed differently than the goyim. It just changed exactly how it was during each period.
The sephardim dress differently than the ashkenazim and nobody has an issue. The teimanim dress a third way.

And then you have the modox that want to dress like the goy.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 10:59:44 AM

Jews always dressed differently than the goyim.
Not true. Suit and black hat is exactly how the goyim dressed 100 years.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 11:00:19 AM
Someone I know said once:
The premise of chasidus is that you're only allowed to change mesora once :)
Very good line

Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: elit on March 10, 2014, 11:08:22 AM
B'h the Torah and am yisroel have a pinchas Like moshe123 to stand up on dansdeals forums  against the pritzas old malchus shamayim and defend the attacks on true Torah study and lifestyle. .. without you klal yisroel would be left adrift.. your sacrifice of your Torah study and take up the fight  to defend the rest is so admirable
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 11:11:40 AM
B'h the Torah and am yisroel have a pinchas Like moshe123 to stand up on dansdeals forums  against the pritzas old malchus shamayim and defend the attacks on true Torah study and lifestyle. .. without you klal yisroel would be left adrift.. your sacrifice of your Torah study and take up the fight  to defend the rest is so admirable

At my office desk....  :)
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 11:13:10 AM
Not true. Suit and black hat is exactly how the goyim dressed 100 years.

Look at the pictures from Europe. There is no way they looked even remotely the same.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 11:16:33 AM

B'h the Torah and am yisroel have a pinchas Like moshe123 to stand up on dansdeals forums  against the pritzas old malchus shamayim and defend the attacks on true Torah study and lifestyle. .. without you klal yisroel would be left adrift.. your sacrifice of your Torah study and take up the fight  to defend the rest is so admirable

+1 :)

Even being moser nefesh to go on the posul internet to do so!!!
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: elit on March 10, 2014, 11:17:31 AM
At my office desk....  :)
😥😥😥


Look at the pictures from Europe. There is no way they looked even remotely the same.
Try looking at pictures from slabodka
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 11:18:41 AM
BH, the forced draft is having the opposite effect.
Number of charedim joining is declining.
http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%A7%D7%98-%D7%94%D7%92%D7%96%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A4%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D.html
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Menachem613 on March 10, 2014, 11:18:59 AM

+1 :)

Even being moser nefesh to go on the posul internet to do so!!!

Lol.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 10, 2014, 11:45:59 AM
While I disagree that the draft is there to destroy Thora, I's side with the chareidim as I oppose a mandatory draft
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 11:53:51 AM
While I disagree that the draft is there to destroy Thora, I's side with the chareidim as I oppose a mandatory draft

Unfortunately Israel is not big enough and not isolated enough to not have a mandatory draft.
Only countries like US and Canada can afford that luxury.

While I agree that those (really) studying in yeshiva should have an exemption, there must be a limit on such exemptions.
You cannot have an entire sector of the population be automatically exempted, without regard to whether they're suited to full time learning or not.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
Unfortunately Israel is not big enough and not isolated enough to not have a mandatory draft.
Only countries like US and Canada can afford that luxury.
Many professionals disagree.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Ergel on March 10, 2014, 11:58:49 AM
Many professionals disagree.
Many professionals disagree that a mandatory draft is not necessary or including chareidim is not necessary?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 12:11:43 PM
Many professionals disagree that a mandatory draft is not necessary
That
Notably Ehud Barak
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 10, 2014, 12:12:12 PM
Why drafting IDF soldiers makes no sense: or, why a volunteer army will always outperform a conscript army:

Whether a conscript army will out-perform a volunteer army depends on how you define success. If you define success from the perspective of the government, then a conscript army will outperform. But if you define success from the perspective of the governed populace, then a volunteer army will outperform. Let me explain:

There are two costs associated with hiring soldiers, the monetary and the psychological. Let's deal with each cost separately:

First, let us ignore psychological costs, and look only at monetary costs.

When soldiers are drafted, the monetary cost remains the same as when they are paid enough to convince them to volunteer, but the cost is hidden. For example, suppose you have someone who is making $50,000 in his private job. In order to convince him to voluntarily enlist, you must pay him at least $50,000 as a soldier. So there is an obvious, explicit monetary cost of $50,000 to convince him to volunteer. If you draft him, you don't have to pay him any money, so it appears like you're saving the expense. But in reality, the same expense is incurred, because the economy is losing a job which produced $50,000 for society. This is an opportunity cost; even if you don't pay him, society is still losing the value of his productivity, which is equal to how much you would have paid him. (Again, we are ignoring psychological costs for now.) So either way, the same cost of $50,000 is incurred whether you draft someone or pay him enough to convince him to voluntarily enlist. But if you draft him, that cost is hidden and unseen.

In fact, under the draft, the cost is even higher, because you draft the wrong people. You might draft someone who makes $100,000 while leaving un-drafted someone who makes only $20,000. If you were paying people to voluntarily enlist, the person who makes $20,000 would volunteer first, which is exactly what we want; we want the less productive members of society to be the first to enlist. We want to draft those people who have the least to lose, who have the lowest opportunity cost of being drafted. But if you draft people under a lottery, you might draft the highest-paid people while leaving the lesser-paid people un-drafted, so you're misallocating scarce and valuable labor. You might draft a doctor into the army as a foot soldier while leaving a homeless bum un-drafted. If you were to pay people to volunteer, you would ensure that only the right people enlist, the people who have the least to lose by joining the army.

But the government is glad to hide the costs, even if this increases the costs, because by hiding the costs, the populace is less likely to oppose the war. If the people knew what the war really cost, they might oppose it. But by drafting soldiers, the government is able to conceal the true costs of war, even as it increases the cost of the war, thus preventing the populace from revolting.

Now, for the psychological costs:

So far, we assumed that the only thing needed to convince someone to enlist voluntarily, is to pay him more than he makes at his job. But obviously, this is not true. Everyone also has psychological values. For example, a gung-ho patriot might be willing to pay for the privilege of fighting, while a pacificist might need to be paid a quadrillion dollars even to agree to be the cook. These psychological costs ARE real. To convince people to join voluntarily, you must pay them enough that the wage you pay them for being a soldier, minus the psychological costs of volunteering (which for a patriot might be negative), is greater than however much they are being paid at their private job (which also includes psychological costs). So suppose the patriot makes $100,000 at his job, and evaluates the cost of serving in the army at negative $30,000. Therefore, to convince him to enlist, you must pay him $70,000. Meanwhile, suppose an average Joe makes $50,000 at his job, and evaluates the cost of serving in the army at $10,000. You must pay him $60,000 to convince him to enlist. And as I said, the private job also includes psychological values. Suppose someone makes only $20,000, but he works at a charity, and attaches a psychological value of $1 million to his charitable work. And suppose the psychological cost to him of fighting in the war is $10,000. Therefore, to convince him to enlist voluntarily, you must pay him $20,000 (for his wages from his job) plus $1 million (the value of his work to him) plus $10,000 (the cost of fighting), which equals $1,030,000.

But of course, when you draft soldiers, the psychological costs are completely ignored. They still exist - the soldiers who are drafted still incur the psychological costs, which are as real as monetary costs - but you never see them. Once again, the government is glad, because this prevents revolt. The soldiers grumble at their incurred psychological costs, but the government doesn't care, and the populace gets taxed less than they otherwise would and they do not feel the psychological costs, so they do not object either.

So conscripted armies are better at fighting wars from the government's perspective. But volunteer armies are better from the perspective of the governed populace (if only they learned economics to understand their true interests!). (However, I am homogenizing the "governed populace" as if it had a unitary interest. I am assuming that the governed populace only wants to fight defensive wars at least-cost. If so, then a volunteer army is best. But if some sector of the populace enjoys offensive wars, and does not care about the cost as long as somebody else pays it, then conscript armies make sense.)

 "Something else to add: most modern conscripted forces still pay nominal salaries to soldiers, so they costs are even greater than your example, as they include opportunity costs for the conscripts labor in the non-military market, and the explicit costs of their salary"

Not quite, or not necessarily. I think you're fallaciously double-counting.

This is true IF the taxpaying populace would not want the war if they knew how much it cost. In that case, the salaries paid to the conscripts would be simply wasted. And if the populace would want the war if only it were cheaper, but does not want it at its full cost, then the populace suffers a loss, but not a whole loss. Suppose the populace values the war at $30,000 per soldier, but every soldier costs $50,000. Then the populace loses $20,000 per soldier, not the entire $50,000. It's no different than if you are forced to buy something for $10 which you would have voluntarily bought only for $6. Your loss is $4, not $10.

But suppose the populace does truly want the war even at its full cost. In that case, the populace would be willing to pay the costs of hiring any soldiers at their market rate. So if the conscripts are paid only a fraction of their market rate, this means that the populace is still getting what it wants, at a fraction of the monetary cost, even. The loss here is to the soldiers, who have their psychological disutility only partially compensated. Suppose the case of the person who would need to be paid $60,000 to induce him to volunteer. And suppose the populace really would be willing to pay him in full, so the populace is not suffering any uncompensated loss. If as a conscript, he is paid only $20,000, then the populace is indifferent, while the conscript suffers a psychic loss of $40,00.

So the point is this: if the conscript is partially paid a fraction of what his market rate, then we must avoid double-counting this loss. The conscript's psychic loss is therefore partially defrayed, and the extra cost to society of paying the conscript is counterbalanced by a reduced psychic loss to the conscript. And while society might not be willing to pay the full cost of the war, it might have been willing to pay some of the cost, because it values the war somewhat, though less than its cost, so the value of the war - though less than the cost of the war - nevertheless partially defrays the cost of the war.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 12:15:30 PM
When soldiers are drafted, the monetary cost remains the same as when they are paid enough to convince them to volunteer, but the cost is hidden. For example, suppose you have someone who is making $50,000 in his private job. In order to convince him to voluntarily enlist, you must pay him at least $50,000 as a soldier. So there is an obvious, explicit monetary cost of $50,000 to convince him to volunteer. If you draft him, you don't have to pay him any money, so it appears like you're saving the expense. But in reality, the same expense is incurred, because the economy is losing a job which produced $50,000 for society. This is an opportunity cost; even if you don't pay him, society is still losing the value of his productivity, which is equal to how much you would have paid him. (Again, we are ignoring psychological costs for now.) So either way, the same cost of $50,000 is incurred whether you draft someone or pay him enough to convince him to voluntarily enlist. But if you draft him, that cost is hidden and unseen.

That math is wrong. You'd be taking $50k out if the guy was being paid $50,000 and not working . Since the $50k remains in the hands of the employer, the only thing missing is the increased expense to hire someone of similar productivity.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 10, 2014, 12:18:23 PM
That math is wrong. You'd be taking $50k out if the guy was being paid $50,000 and not working . Since the $50k remains in the hands of the employer, the only thing missing is the increased expense to hire someone of similar productivity.

I should have added that I did not write this myself  :D
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: good sam on March 10, 2014, 12:36:24 PM
I should have added that I did not write this myself  :D
You didn't have to  :D
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: henche on March 10, 2014, 12:57:19 PM
That math is wrong. You'd be taking $50k out if the guy was being paid $50,000 and not working . Since the $50k remains in the hands of the employer, the only thing missing is the increased expense to hire someone of similar productivity.

I'm guessing the (poorly explained) theory is this:

When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.

So society should want the lowest producers to be in the army. (Hence they want the chareidim...)

Of course, though, this only values production of money. If you value other things also, the calculations change. But economists don't like to value other things because it doesn't lead to easy clear answers.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 10, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
I'm guessing the (poorly explained) theory is this:

When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.

So society should want the lowest producers to be in the army. (Hence they want the chareidim...)

Of course, though, this only values production of money. If you value other things also, the calculations change. But economists don't like to value other things because it doesn't lead to easy clear answers.

+1
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Chaikel on March 10, 2014, 01:39:14 PM
That
Notably Ehud Barak
And the Minister of Defense. I wonder if he has an inkling about what might be necessary to run his army
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Super Speed on March 10, 2014, 01:49:53 PM

While I disagree that the draft is there to destroy Thora, I's side with the chareidim as I oppose a mandatory draft
The whole point of the Army is to bring about a new Judaism, more then it is there for protection. So yes even if a guy isn't learning but he is Chareidi he should be exempt.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 10, 2014, 01:52:24 PM
Someone is forgetting about the "Kur Hituch"....
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 10, 2014, 02:05:45 PM
The whole point of the Army is to bring about a new Judaism, more then it is there for protection. So yes even if a guy isn't learning but he is Chareidi he should be exempt.

There should be no exemptions. Sounds similar to  state subsidies.
Just abolish the draft.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 02:54:34 PM
When the govt pays money to someone, it doesn't (directly) reduce productivity or social utility. It just moves money from one hand to another (or one person's hand to another's). So if govt pays a soldier 50k, it costs zero in social utility.

But when govt forces a person to stop productive activity and instead be a soldier, net social utility is decreased by whatever he would have produced. So if it's a 50k producer, it is lowered by 50k; if a 100k producer, it is lowered by 100k.


You're premise is that a soldier in the army only contributes to social utility if he is paid for it. Yet the production is the same regardless of the payment.

If 101 people live in a country with average salaries of $50,000 and government taxes 100 people $500 each in order to fund a $50k salary for the 1 soldier, net social utility (including the soldier) is $5,000,000. If the government doesn't tax anyone, but instead drafts the 1 soldier without a salary, net social utility is $5,050,000.

If you don't count the soldiers labor towards social utility, then it would 4,950,000 and 5,000,000 respectively.

What you seem to be saying is that anything that generates a salary is considered social utility here, yet in truth anything that should earn a salary is economic production. According to your theory the solution would be to give the guy a salary and then tax it away from him. Then we'd definitely be ahead with the draft.



Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: henche on March 10, 2014, 02:57:26 PM
You're premise is that a soldier in the army only contributes to social utility if he is paid for it. Yet the production is the same regardless of the payment.

If 101 people live in a country with average salaries of $50,000 and government taxes 100 people $500 each in order to fund a $50k salary for the 1 soldier, net social utility (including the soldier) is $5,000,000. If the government doesn't tax anyone, but instead drafts the 1 soldier without a salary, net social utility is $5,050,000.

If you don't count the soldiers labor towards social utility, then it would 4,950,000 and 5,000,000 respectively.

What you seem to be saying is that anything that generates a salary is considered social utility here, yet in truth anything that should earn a salary is economic production. According to your theory the solution would be to give the guy a salary and then tax it away from him. Then we'd definitely be ahead with the draft.

I'm not sure I follow.

Things add social utility when they produce stuff that people like.
Things subtract from social utility when they produce stuff that people don't like.
Moving money from one person to another is net zero. (except that people don't like it, but economists don't care about that part)
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 02:59:18 PM

Moving money from one person to another is net zero. (except that people don't like it, but economists don't care about that part)
It subtracts from the utility of the people who earned, just like if you'd burn the money
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: MoGro17 on March 10, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Clearly, the easiest solution would be to do away with the draft and create a professional army. Drones, robots, etc are the future of war anyway so you don't need cannon fodder anymore. One highly-trained soldier with a joystick and a $1k drone can do more damage than a whole platoon of bloodthirsty marines. This way, only those that want to be in the military will actually be in the military.
Instead, Israel should have mandated community service and compel people to find a job. Any (real) job. This solves the issue of znus in the army.
As for those that want to sit and learn until the day they die, go for it. Provided you actually do it EVERY day. There will be an audit system and a testing system to see if you are keeping up the hard work or not. The Israeli government has shown a willingness to work with Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah in the past so I see no reason why this can't work out.

Just a thought  ;)
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 03:41:33 PM
$1k drone

Shows just how much you know

Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: MoGro17 on March 10, 2014, 03:52:03 PM
Shows just how much you know

The point, good sir, is that even a bottom-rung drone can be devastating with some training.
While most governments overpay for drones, I am well aware that a $1k drone doesn't make that much sense. I'm tired not clueless.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 04:02:13 PM
It seems to me that the current status quo is that people who want an exemption end up getting it pretty easily
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 04:37:59 PM

When soldiers are drafted, the monetary cost remains the same as when they are paid enough to convince them to volunteer, but the cost is hidden. For example, suppose you have someone who is making $50,000 in his private job. In order to convince him to voluntarily enlist, you must pay him at least $50,000 as a soldier. So there is an obvious, explicit monetary cost of $50,000 to convince him to volunteer. If you draft him, you don't have to pay him any money, so it appears like you're saving the expense. But in reality, the same expense is incurred, because the economy is losing a job which produced $50,000 for society. This is an opportunity cost; even if you don't pay him, society is still losing the value of his productivity, which is equal to how much you would have paid him. (Again, we are ignoring psychological costs for now.) So either way, the same cost of $50,000 is incurred whether you draft someone or pay him enough to convince him to voluntarily enlist. But if you draft him, that cost is hidden and unseen.


Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: henche on March 10, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
It subtracts from the utility of the people who earned, just like if you'd burn the money

I see our miscommunication.

Net social utility is determined by adding up everyone's social utility (and then multiplying by a factor designed to recognize the value of decreasing marginal value of money).  The philosophers who call themselves economists like to think that is a good basis for public policy.

So redistribution is net zero.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 10, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.
That is not what is happening in the USA
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Ergel on March 10, 2014, 04:52:05 PM
That is not what is happening in the USA
Did you forget #sarcasm?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: MoGro17 on March 10, 2014, 05:00:19 PM
It seems to me that the current status quo is that people who want an exemption end up getting it pretty easily
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 05:02:06 PM
Ok, so what you're advocating is that only poor people, or people who want to go into underpaid professions should go to the army, while rich people with good educations should not?
Why don't we also institute a payment system where rich parents can pay into the system (hey, more govt revenue!) to have their kids not be drafted!
Only the poor should die for their country.
Yep, that seems really fair to me.

Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: MoGro17 on March 10, 2014, 05:02:46 PM
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
P.S. I know my comment makes it sound like its all about the money. It's not. While money plays a significant role, I'm just as concerned about the bitul torah and the wasted time/energy/productivity.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Ergel on March 10, 2014, 05:03:01 PM
Switzerland has a lifetime higher income tax for draft exempts 
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 05:04:28 PM
That only matters if you are paying income taxes
haha
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: MoGro17 on March 10, 2014, 05:07:04 PM
I was talking about non frum people who don't seem to have such a hard time getting out
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 05:07:51 PM
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps because they don't really need everyone?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 10, 2014, 05:13:46 PM
Excellent point.
There is no question that the current enforcement system leaves much to be desired.
You can't really force someone who doesn't want to serve to serve, he'll make a real lousy soldier and lower the general morale.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 10, 2014, 06:11:15 PM
Did you forget #sarcasm?
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Ergel on March 10, 2014, 06:48:20 PM
NOOOOO!!! Do you have any research or numbers to back up your ASSUMPTION?
From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: ariIs on March 10, 2014, 07:04:25 PM
Correct. That needs to change. I'm all for learning Torah. ALL FOR IT and I will continue to support it. Provided it is done correctly and provided that there is no bitul. Too many guys are just hanging around in yeshiva because there is no where else to be. In America, when it's private pay, enjoy and have a nice day. In Isreal, where the government and the rest of us BUMZ in America are paying for it, there needs to be accountability.
Hence my point about the audit and testing systems. I haven't hashed out the details, but I'm sure there is a way to keep the yeshiva system honest.

+1
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 10, 2014, 07:07:29 PM
From a simple Google search. I'm sure there are more scientific sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012203326.html

Singled out by the Pentagon for intense recruitment drives are urban centers such as Los Angeles and New York. The latter, in which low-income students account for 51% of all high school enrollment and where 71% are black or Latino, contains three of the nation’s top 32 counties for Army enlistment. In Los Angeles, 91% of the students are non-white and 75% are low-income.
And the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools says the 30 JROTC programs in Los Angeles Unified School District (with 4,754 students) are “Located in the most economically depressed communities of the city.”
African-Americans make up 16% of the civilian population of military age but 22% of the Army’s enlisted personnel, the ACLU notes. It charges bluntly: “The U.S. military’s practice of targeting low-income youth and students of color in combination with exaggerated promises of financial rewards for enlistment, undermines the voluntariness of their enlistment…”

You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report (http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2011_Demographics_Report.pdf). 93% have some college experience. None of what you quoted shows anything about income class in the actual military. This report (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/10/who-are-the-recruits-the-demographic-characteristics-of-us-military-enlistment-2003-2005) using scientific methodology, rather that anecdotes intended to advance an opinion shows that the exact opposite is true. Of course, take the source with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 09:39:35 PM
You didn't search well enough. See page 19 of the military's demographics report (http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2011_Demographics_Report.pdf). 93% have some college experience.

That's cuz the army pays for it
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 10, 2014, 11:41:44 PM
That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 10, 2014, 11:44:24 PM
That wouldn't get them the high school diploma. The racial numbers are wrong as well according to page 51. Education is discussed ingreater depth on page 66.
Isn't HS diploma a perquisite?
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 11, 2014, 12:00:41 AM
It seems there are some who do not have one, and this was a major premise of the WP article.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 11, 2014, 12:08:20 AM
This bar chart from he left wing NPP  (http://nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2011/military-recruitment-2010/)also belies that myth.

P.S. They are the source of the WP!
(http://nationalpriorities.org/media/uploads/publications/military_recruitment_2010/figure1.png)
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: good sam on March 12, 2014, 02:41:00 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/world/middleeast/israel-restricts-exemptions-from-military-service.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 12, 2014, 02:43:17 PM
The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 12, 2014, 03:04:22 PM
The law is a joke for the precise reason that they can't enforce it without a civil war.
It will either be repealed or won't be enforced.
The problem for the yeshivos is money. They can very easily stop giving charedim money.

Hence

The problem started since the yeshivos and people became desperate and began relying on the government for financial support.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 12, 2014, 03:26:38 PM
They already cut off almost the entire money.
The protests weren't on that. 90% is gone already.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 12, 2014, 03:28:26 PM
They already cut off almost the entire money.

BS
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Moshe123 on March 12, 2014, 04:49:18 PM
BS

Well, they actually did. I recently sat and compared all the numbers dollar for dollar.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Expert Flyer on March 12, 2014, 05:18:20 PM
They shouldn't, but neither should anyone
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Chaikel on March 12, 2014, 08:25:31 PM
BS
???
They cut 80% of the money months ago
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 12, 2014, 08:31:25 PM
???
They cut 80% of the money months ago
You're forgetting child support for charedi families, arnona discounts, healthcare, and schooling.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Chaikel on March 12, 2014, 08:32:50 PM
You're forgetting child support for charedi families, arnona discounts, healthcare, and schooling.
Child support has been slashed many times over the past 10 years. Health care is free for all residents. And I was referring to schooling
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 12, 2014, 08:35:46 PM
Child support has been slashed many times over the past 10 years. Health care is free for all residents. And I was referring to schooling

The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.

Healthcare is free for all residents and now military service is mandatory for all residents. If you don't give you can't take.

Primary schooling in religious schools is still government funded. They can stop funding private schools.

Say what you will, the charedi system probably cannot survive without the government's money. More people would need to work.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: aygart on March 12, 2014, 08:42:38 PM
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.
Not worse that the child tax credit
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 12, 2014, 08:43:58 PM
Not worse that the child tax credit
Just because America does it doesn't mean Israel has to do it. Certainly not if the father is considered a criminal

I'm not C'V advocating anything, I'm just saying the Israeli gov't has tremendous leverage without locking people up in jail.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: Chaikel on March 13, 2014, 04:48:10 AM
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.
I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. The current credit is between 1500-2000 shekel.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2014, 08:00:50 PM
I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. The current credit is between 1500-2000 shekel.
You're right. My points remains the same though.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yare on March 13, 2014, 08:16:42 PM
The government doesn't owe anybody any child support, and they can slash it from the current $1000/yr to nothing.

Healthcare is free for all residents and now military service is mandatory for all residents. If you don't give you can't take.
child support and healthcare are given to anyone residing in the country, even non israeli citizens who dont serve in anything. its a social service completely independent of the army.

Primary schooling in religious schools is still government funded. They can stop funding private schools.
none of the right wing charedi schools take a penny from the governement.

Say what you will, the charedi system probably cannot survive without the government's money. More people would need to work.
and if the charedim stopped paying sales tax and property tax and car tax etc etc, they could use that money towards living and make up a chunk of the deficit that they would lose from the government cutting funds. they are tax paying members of society and so they get the services of society just like everyone else. that's the way it works in developed countries.

besides, most of them are living primarily on gemachs anyway, a few thousand shekel here or there isn't going to change anyones life in the long run. while the money from the government definitely helps, it's not what's keeping them learning.
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2014, 08:22:57 PM
I don't know to quote you but it's feasible for the government to restrict non emergency healthcare to non-criminals.

Every mainstream charedi school lives on various government funding, especially the girls schools which are almost regular public schools. Very easy for government to withhold funding from all schools that arent co ed.

Most heimish people avoid sales taxes wherever possible. So long as the government controls the banks it won't be any more possible.

It's not feasbile to avoid property taxes (besides arnona for some) since the government controls tabu and nobody in their right mind puts down real money without the security of a land deed.
 
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: yare on March 13, 2014, 08:35:32 PM
I don't know to quote you but it's feasible for the government to restrict non emergency healthcare to non-criminals.
then they would need to make a law that all those with criminal records lose non-emergency healthcare... which would never fly. show me one democratic society that has people with criminal records losing social services?   

obviously the government can do whatever they want, but they can't call themselves a democratic government while openly discriminating against a large minority.

Every mainstream charedi school lives on various government funding, especially the girls schools which are almost regular public schools. Very easy for government to withhold funding from all schools that arent co ed.
the government has no basis to remove funding from the schools, as anyone of that age isn't yet eligible for the army.  anyway the bais yaakovs aren't relevant, because the religious girls still have a ptur from the army.

Most heimish people avoid sales taxes wherever possible. So long as the government controls the banks it won't be any more possible.

It's not feasbile to avoid property taxes (besides arnona for some) since the government controls tabu and nobody in their right mind puts down real money without the security of a land deed.
 
i wasn't saying that they should start avoiding taxes as payback. my point was just that in any first world society, when one pays taxes they in turn are provided with the social services that those taxes go towards paying. to say we're going to cut all your services but you still need to pay taxes is about the equivalent of highway robbery. 
Title: Re: Should chareidim be forced to go to the army?
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 13, 2014, 11:47:15 PM
then they would need to make a law that all those with criminal records lose non-emergency healthcare... which would never fly. show me one democratic society that has people with criminal records losing social services?   

obviously the government can do whatever they want, but they can't call themselves a democratic government while openly discriminating against a large minority.
the government has no basis to remove funding from the schools, as anyone of that age isn't yet eligible for the army.  anyway the bais yaakovs aren't relevant, because the religious girls still have a ptur from the army.
i wasn't saying that they should start avoiding taxes as payback. my point was just that in any first world society, when one pays taxes they in turn are provided with the social services that those taxes go towards paying. to say we're going to cut all your services but you still need to pay taxes is about the equivalent of highway robbery.

1. There's also no democratic society with a significant minority openly ignoring criminal codes.

2. Very easy to claim it's for children superior liberal education (they'd also have quite a good point re: learning the English language). They have every reason to do it to pressure the parents.

3. Providing school only in government run co-ed public schools and changing the healthcare system for a free for all to free for veterans is in line with many other first world countries, yet significant minorities revolting against national obligations is not in line.

Anyhow obviously these are extreme steps, but someone here said it would take a civil war, and I disagree - all it takes is withholding money. The unknown factor is the ability and willingness of private charities to fund the charedi society