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DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: ShmuliT on April 03, 2014, 06:17:22 PM

Title: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ShmuliT on April 03, 2014, 06:17:22 PM
A family member was born in Israel, left when he was 3 months old and just returned now. He is 26 yo, married with a child and lives in the USA. He has only a USA pasport and place of birth is Israel.
When he arrived in TLV, he was detained and told he must apply for an israeli passport before he leaves the country.
What are his options? Will they detain him if he doesnt get a passport? Who can he speak to for advise? 
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: sky121 on April 03, 2014, 06:56:29 PM
IME he should either get one or give up his citenzenship.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ShmuliT on April 03, 2014, 07:02:25 PM
If he gets an israeli pasport then he will have army issues etc. Is giving up citizenship an option? How is it done? What are the disadvantages?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: sky121 on April 03, 2014, 07:15:30 PM
Not sure exactly how it's done.  I think it's a fairly simple process though. I've never done it myself. Besides for the obvious of not having an Israeli passport there are no huge disadvantages I don't believe. And it shouldn't affect if he wants to make Aliyah one day or anything.  If anything most people gain by giving it up. No more paying taxes that Israelis have to pay etc. That being said I wouldn't give up mine.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: shmu on April 03, 2014, 07:58:18 PM
you need to first get a passport in order to give up your citizenship.  also make sure they don't find out your married with kids.  they will make the kids get passport.

if he runs in to impossible issues you can write to yuli edelstien he can help.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: MC on April 03, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
you need to first get a passport in order to give up your citizenship.
+1
and they can deny it... my brother was told to try back in 15 years when he tried to renounce
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: sky121 on April 03, 2014, 08:24:12 PM
+1
and they can deny it... my brother was told to try back in 15 years when he tried to renounce

Seriously? And he grew up and lived in the US? Never heard of that.
Guess I take back my "fairly easy" comment.

Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: Miracle on April 04, 2014, 07:31:21 AM
In addition, if you have an Israeli PP & Teudat Zehut, they'll charge you retroactively for bituach leumi even though you've never used their health coverage... At least that's what it was like 7 years ago. but I would look into it...
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: Yitz on April 04, 2014, 08:33:55 AM
The computer system at Ben Gurion can find everyone. My Father in law left the country in 1958 and he traveled 20 times if not more since he left  Eretz Yisroel and 2 years ago they stopped him and told him get a passport or renounce your citizenship.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 04, 2014, 08:35:07 AM
My Israeli revocation took place a couple of weeks before my son was born. (In the us) Is he technically Israeli? Should I bother getting him a tz and then revoking?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: MC on April 04, 2014, 10:33:52 AM

Seriously? And he grew up and lived in the US? Never heard of that.
Guess I take back my "fairly easy" comment.
Yep, my parent moved to the States when he was about 1.
He flew in and out a lot on Swiss passport (which doesn't say where you're born) but eventually those Israeli computers caught up to him...
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: kivabb on April 04, 2014, 11:12:25 AM
My son was born in E"Y and left when he was 3 months old. My wife was also born in Israel. When I was in Miami (where I'm from) after coming back, I sent my mother with my wife and baby to Israeli Consulate to renounce citizenship. Reason for sending my mother was I figured the less dati looking the better and figured my wife would be up for a fight and might need backup (she was 22 at the time). I was right. They tried heavy pressure and guilt to dissuade them from renouncing but at the end they we stood our ground. They filled the paperwork, paid the fee, given receipt and was told that would receive official confirmation within a year. Of course we never received that. I went to E"Y this past summer with my son 14 and they didn't say anything which is no proof either way. I had the receipt handy just in case but they never asked.

From what I remember hearing 15 years ago, renouncing in places like Miami was smoother then NY. It can be done in E"Y as well. but be prepared to spend the day there and take a beating.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: arieldahan on April 04, 2014, 11:41:20 AM
Because he is 26 years old, he will not have issues with the army. As long as he didn't live in Israel after age 14 for more than a year. While I don't know about revoking citizenship, I can tell you that Israelis who live abroad with dual citizenship have two options. They can get a passport, or a Teudat Maavar that only works in Ben Gurion. I think it is better to get an Israeli passport because I think it is the cheaper option. Also, it helps get you into countries that charge for visas for US citizens. a passport is for 10 years whereas a the Teudat Maavar is for five.


Whatever you do, DO NOT GET A TEUDAT ZEHUT. they will try to give you one. you don't need it.   
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: avremie on April 05, 2014, 09:02:36 PM
But will his kids have problems in 15 years
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: Fan of Dan on April 06, 2014, 12:41:49 AM
I was born in EY and my father wisely made sure right away that I my citizenship was revoked. I have been asked at passport control if I was born in Israel and I just said I made a bittul on the citizenship and they let me right through.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ShmuliT on April 07, 2014, 05:04:54 AM
What is the process of renouncing citizenship in Israel and will it affect visiting rights in the future or have any other negative consequences?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: shmu on April 07, 2014, 06:07:59 PM
you mean what are the benefits of renouncing your citizenship
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 01:38:22 PM
anybody with more to share on this topic?  I am thinking of revoking citizenship for me and my children who live in the US.  any disadvantages that you know of? 
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: trempim on October 31, 2016, 02:17:30 PM
A family member was born in Israel, left when he was 3 months old and just returned now. He is 26 yo, married with a child and lives in the USA. He has only a USA pasport and place of birth is Israel.
When he arrived in TLV, he was detained and told he must apply for an israeli passport before he leaves the country.
What are his options? Will they detain him if he doesnt get a passport? Who can he speak to for advise?

Is he an Israeli? (did he ever have a tz?)
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 02:18:45 PM
it seems pro's are:

1.not dealing with passports which might be a big pro if large family

 2. no VAT tax


cons:

1.??
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: trempim on October 31, 2016, 02:21:08 PM
No money for bituch leumi (pro and con) no health care
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 03:36:39 PM
No money for bituch leumi (pro and con) no health care

what if we live in the US any cons?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on October 31, 2016, 03:38:19 PM
what if we live in the US any cons?
Only cons I am aware of are the fact that Israeli citizens don't need to pay for a visa to the Russian federation, or IINM to Brazil, unlike US citizens who need to get visas which are a hassle and involve a fee (over $100 IINM) for those countries.

Also renouncing an Israeli citizenship is a royal PITA, especially if one has children. It is always better to do when single or family is small.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 04:12:44 PM
Only cons I am aware of are the fact that Israeli citizens don't need to pay for a visa to the Russian federation, or IINM to Brazil, unlike US citizens who need to get visas which are a hassle and involve a fee (over $100 IINM) for those countries.

Also renouncing an Israeli citizenship is a royal PITA, especially if one has children. It is always better to do when single or family is small.

why is that?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 04:13:54 PM
Only cons I am aware of are the fact that Israeli citizens don't need to pay for a visa to the Russian federation, or IINM to Brazil, unlike US citizens who need to get visas which are a hassle and involve a fee (over $100 IINM) for those countries.

Also renouncing an Israeli citizenship is a royal PITA, especially if one has children. It is always better to do when single or family is small.

what if one has property in israel does renouncing citizenship affect  it anyway?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on October 31, 2016, 04:23:31 PM
why is that?
Because before they will allow you to renounce, they want you to update your family status, and all children will have to be registered as Israeli citizens, and then you can request to renounce for yourself and children under 18.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on October 31, 2016, 04:24:49 PM
what if one has property in israel does renouncing citizenship affect  it anyway?
IDK. I think that as long as one doesn't live there it makes no difference if a citizen or not.

Obviously don't forget that the US requires it's citizens to report all assets and income outside of the US.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: David Smith on October 31, 2016, 04:27:17 PM


it seems pro's are:

1.not dealing with passports which might be a big pro if large family

 2. no VAT tax

3. no army service

cons:

1.??

Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: Dave321 on October 31, 2016, 04:29:06 PM
where is it eaisier to renounce? In NY or Israel.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: LoLo on October 31, 2016, 04:29:10 PM
IIRC, it could make a difference when getting a mortgage in Israel.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 04:51:33 PM
Because before they will allow you to renounce, they want you to update your family status, and all children will have to be registered as Israeli citizens, and then you can request to renounce for yourself and children under 18.

they wont let you renounce for parents and only those children that have passports already?

in ny both parents have to go with minor children to the consular to do this?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on October 31, 2016, 04:53:20 PM
also keep in mind they charge like 85-95 dollars to renounce but I am not sure if that is per child/person or family?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: MeirS on October 31, 2016, 06:05:48 PM
Is there a limit to how much time one can spend in Israel if you revoke citizenship?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on October 31, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ConsularServices/Pages/Renouncing_Israeli_citizenship.aspx

IIRC you can only do it outside Israel. Children under 18 can be included in parent application and there is no additional fee (however if they are not yet registered as Israeli citizens, that will be required first).
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidb on November 01, 2016, 04:14:12 AM
Contact israeli shortcut very helpful on these topics. israelishortcut.org
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 01, 2016, 11:23:29 AM
Is there a limit to how much time one can spend in Israel if you revoke citizenship?
You just become like any other non-citizen (except that you can't qualify for aliya benefits if you decide to settle there).
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on November 01, 2016, 12:54:54 PM
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ConsularServices/Pages/Renouncing_Israeli_citizenship.aspx

IIRC you can only do it outside Israel. Children under 18 can be included in parent application and there is no additional fee (however if they are not yet registered as Israeli citizens, that will be required first).

how will they know about other children if other children have no passports and are not in the system
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 01, 2016, 01:23:59 PM
how will they know about other children if other children have no passports and are not in the system
Did they ever travel to Israel?

Are you going to hide the truth?

I don't know what's the right way to go about it, but you do have to realize that you are dealing with a "big brother" type of country.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on November 01, 2016, 03:30:53 PM
Did they ever travel to Israel?

Are you going to hide the truth?

I don't know what's the right way to go about it, but you do have to realize that you are dealing with a "big brother" type of country.

have you done this by the way? do they ask you for all family members or do you just submit the names you want to renounce?

in my experience if minor child does not have israeli passport they let the minor child enter with US passport and did not make an issue about them getting israeli passport
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 01, 2016, 03:47:57 PM
in my experience if minor child does not have israeli passport they let the minor child enter with US passport and did not make an issue about them getting israeli passport
I've heard of various experiences, though most of the negative ones probably date back to the 90s or maybe early 00s.

Bottom line, don't think they are stupid and don't know. If the minor ever entered the country along with Israeli parent, they have that on record.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: trempim on November 01, 2016, 03:53:05 PM
There is another option, change your last name.

All you need is one letter off, as long as your passport does not say born in Jerusalem you should be fine.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 01, 2016, 04:44:41 PM
There is another option, change your last name.

All you need is one letter off, as long as your passport does not say born in Jerusalem you should be fine.
You really think they are stupid? They might not make an issue when entering, but renouncing is different.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: Eliyohu on November 01, 2016, 04:53:23 PM
what if one has property in israel does renouncing citizenship affect  it anyway?
I heard recently israel is attempting to pass a law that taxes foreigners who own property in israel, not sure what the details are and if it passed/or about to or was just an idea.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: davidd75 on November 01, 2016, 05:09:18 PM
I've heard of various experiences, though most of the negative ones probably date back to the 90s or maybe early 00s.

Bottom line, don't think they are stupid and don't know. If the minor ever entered the country along with Israeli parent, they have that on record.

i don't disagree that they know just wanted to point out that it seems then do not enforce this rule of obtaining an israeli passport for minors when entering and existing in Israel at least in my experience.

but back to question of renouncing do they just take the names you put down to renounce or do they search for all possible names in the family etc...

and yes both parents have to appear and cannot be done in Israel
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ludmila on November 01, 2016, 08:40:06 PM
I heard recently israel is attempting to pass a law that taxes foreigners who own property in israel, not sure what the details are and if it passed/or about to or was just an idea.

The tax is for both Israeli and foreign owners of 3 or more apartments, and for those who have apartments without living in them for most of the year, and not renting them, they are trying to control the increase in apartment prices, it will not work.
Also if you renounce Israeli citizenship it is much harder to get again when needed, my family and I are all keeping our Israeli citizenship, if or when it gets bad here like a repeat of 2008-09 and it will, ill have a place in Jerusalem to move to.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 01, 2016, 09:22:44 PM
Also if you renounce Israeli citizenship it is much harder to get again when needed, my family and I are all keeping our Israeli citizenship, if or when it gets bad here like a repeat of 2008-09 and it will, ill have a place in Jerusalem to move to.
What makes you say it is harder to get Israeli citizenship? Why would one need to be a citizen in order to move there (I know people living there for many decades as non citizens)? 08-09 was bad here? If so how does moving to Jerusalem make any difference?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: trempim on November 02, 2016, 02:04:04 AM
You really think they are stupid? They might not make an issue when entering, but renouncing is different.

Worked for my brother in law.

New name + New passport number.

No more problems!
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ADedovets on November 02, 2016, 12:51:53 PM
I think you need to ask such questions at relevant state organizations, not this forum :)
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 02, 2016, 12:55:02 PM
Worked for my brother in law.

New name + New passport number.

No more problems!
Worked for what? Did anyone renounce?
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ludmila on November 02, 2016, 07:06:44 PM
What makes you say it is harder to get Israeli citizenship? Why would one need to be a citizen in order to move there (I know people living there for many decades as non citizens)? 08-09 was bad here? If so how does moving to Jerusalem make any difference?
You could be correct about being able to live there without citizenship so far, but laws are changing , a year ago any non Israeli without a TZ # cant open a bank account, and Bituah Leumi --etc are only available to citizens and in some cases to Yeshiva students. They do not want non citizens to get any benefits without having Israel as their main residence, i.e stay at least 6 out of 12 months in the country and pay taxes. Since I live in the USA , when i renewed my passport at the Chicago consulate they changed my 10 year passport to a 2 year Israeli Taudat Mevar, same happened to many Israelis I know.
In 2008-09 the USA economy , housing market and stock market collapsed , was only partially saved by extreme money printing and banks bail out, the Israeli economy , banks and real estate markets were not affected, it looks like all about to repeat soon, the USA is 23 trillion USD in debt and increasing, it is the most debted nation in history, better to have an option out when needed.
Title: Re: To get an Israeli passport or not?
Post by: ExGingi on November 02, 2016, 07:50:07 PM
You could be correct about being able to live there without citizenship so far, but laws are changing , a year ago any non Israeli without a TZ # cant open a bank account, and Bituah Leumi --etc are only available to citizens and in some cases to Yeshiva students. They do not want non citizens to get any benefits without having Israel as their main residence, i.e stay at least 6 out of 12 months in the country and pay taxes.
One can be a permanent resident, pay taxes, bituach leumi etc without being a citizen.

Quote
Since I live in the USA , when i renewed my passport at the Chicago consulate they changed my 10 year passport to a 2 year Israeli Taudat Mevar, same happened to many Israelis I know.
So why would someone not living there want to have to deal with the hassle and expense? What benefit would one have from it?

Quote
In 2008-09 the USA economy , housing market and stock market collapsed , was only partially saved by extreme money printing and banks bail out, the Israeli economy , banks and real estate markets were not affected, it looks like all about to repeat soon, the USA is 23 trillion USD in debt and increasing, it is the most debted nation in history, better to have an option out when needed.
So what makes you think that nothing can happen there? Were there never financial problems there?

And if, or when the US economy collapses, what do you think would happen elsewhere, and what would be of over 200 million Americans (of which there are several millions of Jews)?

And for many 2008-2009 was a great opportunity to invest, as well as to have loads of debt wiped away (something that I don't believe could occur there).