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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 10:48:08 PM

Title: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 10:48:08 PM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/16/pa4e6yja.jpg)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 10:50:20 PM
They also have a robo call that u shouldn't go to the parade bec is from lubavitch and u don't want ur kids to grow up like lubavitcher kids
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2014, 10:54:15 PM
They also have a robo call that u shouldn't go to the parade bec is from lubavitch and u don't want ur kids to grow up like lubavitcher kids
They actually said "your kids shouldn't grow up like Lubavitcher kids" ?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: srap on May 15, 2014, 10:59:03 PM
Along a similar vein, here's a famous drawing by Escher
Ooooh.   Any surprise that he has always been my favorite?!! 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
They actually said "your kids shouldn't grow up like Lubavitcher kids" ?

I don't know how to attach audio
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 11:24:18 PM
https://db.tt/1hF2Z4QB
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 15, 2014, 11:24:46 PM
Does that work?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2014, 11:28:21 PM
Won't download.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: MarkS on May 15, 2014, 11:31:49 PM
Works for me. Crazy
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: SamKey on May 16, 2014, 04:05:48 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/16/pa4e6yja.jpg)
I heard from a shaliach that he wouldn't step for in 770 on succos...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 08:17:19 AM
Ooooh.   Any k that he has always been my favorite?!!
In that case I would reiterate:

If you enjoy these kinds of things then I would recommend Douglas Hofstadter's book 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid'. This book had my head spinning for the few weeks it took me to read it (I couldn't read more than one or 2 chapters at a time).

Or for a less heavy version see the sequel 'I Am A Strange loop'.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ilherman on May 16, 2014, 08:50:23 AM
Does that work?
not for me.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 09:02:43 AM
2,000 years later and we still can't fix the sin that caused the destruction of the 2nd bayis.  Sad.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: dovy2 on May 16, 2014, 09:08:47 AM
Just love the "dus macht lubavitch!!!!!".
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: elit on May 16, 2014, 09:39:51 AM
Can we get an English version of that flyer
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: MarkS on May 16, 2014, 09:47:48 AM
Can we get an English version of that flyer
Very liberal translation:

An organization (Lubavitch) is making on Lag Baomer a Lag Ba’omer parade –
And they are making propaganda to get heimeshe kids to come – but it is an event that is Ain ruach chachomim noche heimenu.
We request that you don’t let our kids attend.
Hashem should help that the zechus of Rashbi should protect us, so we can be mechanech our children to hashem and his torah.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 16, 2014, 10:45:42 AM
Keep in mind that this is for the Boro Park parade,  not the crown Heights one.  The CH one is obvious they wouldn't go,  but boro Park I'm sure will "cater to their clientele"
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 11:31:30 AM
.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 16, 2014, 01:16:44 PM
This is nothing to do with hate.
There are very strong hashkafik disagreements between many sects and chabad. (-really?!  ;) ) For whatever reason, Chabad always had an interest in selling/trying to influence others to their derech and hashkafa. -Arguably this is what the parade idea was all about.- Satmar and others are entitled to raise their kids al pi their derech without the kids having undue influence from other mehalchim. When I was growing up, we were also warned very strongly not to go near the chabad parades which were designed to entertain and entice kids....

Not trying to start a chabad bashing fest, I just don't think that satmar is so out of line here at all.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 01:18:51 PM
This is nothing to do with hate.
There are very strong hashkafik disagreements between many sects and chabad. (-really?!  ;) ) For whatever reason, Chabad always had an interest in selling/trying to influence others to their derech and hashkafa. -Arguably this is what the parade idea was all about.- Satmar and others are entitled to raise their kids al pi their derech without the kids having undue influence from other mehalchim. When I was growing up, we were also warned very strongly not to go near the chabad parades which were designed to entertain and entice kids....

Not trying to start a chabad bashing fest, I just don't think that satmar is so out of line here at all.
While you may have a point on the letter, the phone call was way out of line...

Besides, the Lashon Ein Ruach Chachomim Nocha, doesn't imply "they have different Hashkafos from us" it implies "Those guys are wrong! You don't want your kids looking like them..."
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: elit on May 16, 2014, 02:09:09 PM
While you may have a point on the letter, the phone call was way out of line...

Besides, the Lashon Ein Ruach Chachomim Nocha, doesn't imply "they have different Hashkafos from us" it implies "Those guys are wrong! You don't want your kids looking like them..."
usually when there's a strong difference in opinion one will think the other ones very wrong... this has been true throughout history. The be is mikdash was destroyed bc of " baseless" hatred
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 02:11:11 PM
usually when there's a strong difference in opinion one will think the other ones very wrong... this has been true throughout history. The be is mikdash was destroyed bc of " baseless" hatred
Yet Talmidey Rabbi Akiva died because לא נהגו כבוד זה בזה Which most Meforshim explain that they didn't respect each others' differences in opinions...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: hocker on May 16, 2014, 02:21:38 PM
This is nothing to do with hate.
There are very strong hashkafik disagreements between many sects and chabad. (-really?!  ;) ) For whatever reason, Chabad always had an interest in selling/trying to influence others to their derech and hashkafa. -Arguably this is what the parade idea was all about.- Satmar and others are entitled to raise their kids al pi their derech without the kids having undue influence from other mehalchim. When I was growing up, we were also warned very strongly not to go near the chabad parades which were designed to entertain and entice kids....

Not trying to start a chabad bashing fest, I just don't think that satmar is so out of line here at all.
Well said!

Satmar unfortunately had their bad experience with chabad when one of their teachers was caught influencing his students to join chabad. They respect chabad very much, but they have a right to shelter their young children from leaving their Mesorah.

I don't want to start a fight here but attempts to influence children from another sect to join your ranks is nothing better than a missionary.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: elit on May 16, 2014, 02:27:16 PM
Yet Talmidey Rabbi Akiva died because לא נהגו כבוד זה בזה Which most Meforshim explain that they didn't respect each others' differences in opinions...
there are many differences... and I wasn't trying to imply this case was appropriate. Was just saying that if the opinion is truly לשם שמים It's not necessarily a bad thing to feel others are really wrong
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: zh cohen on May 16, 2014, 03:25:59 PM
Well said!

Satmar unfortunately had their bad experience with chabad when one of their teachers was caught influencing his students to join chabad. They respect chabad very much, but they have a right to shelter their young children from leaving their Mesorah.

I don't want to start a fight here but attempts to influence children from another sect to join your ranks is nothing better than a missionary.

I heard that in order for kids to be allowed into the parade, they have to snip off their long Peyos, and speak in Ivrit...

/sarc
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: sky121 on May 16, 2014, 03:31:42 PM
This is nothing to do with hate.
There are very strong hashkafik disagreements between many sects and chabad. (-really?!  ;) ) For whatever reason, Chabad always had an interest in selling/trying to influence others to their derech and hashkafa. -Arguably this is what the parade idea was all about.- Satmar and others are entitled to raise their kids al pi their derech without the kids having undue influence from other mehalchim. When I was growing up, we were also warned very strongly not to go near the chabad parades which were designed to entertain and entice kids....

Not trying to start a chabad bashing fest, I just don't think that satmar is so out of line here at all.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 03:45:22 PM
Is that right?

First I'm hearing of it.
I mean there have been some people that learned Tanya with others, but otherwise that's a bunch of hooey.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: sky121 on May 16, 2014, 03:48:42 PM
First I'm hearing of it.
I mean there have been some people that learned Tanya with others, but otherwise that's a bunch of hooey.

I'm not chabad so I can't give a real knowledgable thought but from any interaction or experiences I ever had I never felt that way.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 03:54:01 PM
Quite frankly, one of the stupider lies about Chabad I've ever heard.  Trying to get other kids to become Chabad?
If they're not frum we would love to make them frum, but other than that I've never seen in many years in many cities across the world.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: george on May 16, 2014, 03:56:44 PM
I think churnbabychurn is confusing chabad's very strong emphasis on outreach to non-observant Jews, vs. trying to influence other frum sects to join chabad mesorah.

ETA: I see Dan just said the same thing  right before I posted.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Crazy tools on May 16, 2014, 04:25:56 PM
First I'm hearing of it.
I mean there have been some people that learned Tanya with others, but otherwise that's a bunch of hooey.
+1
I'm not Chabad, but from being around them for quite some time in the summer and on a shabbos, USUALLY the extent of it was trying to get us to learn tanya with them.
With every conversation though, some fascinating (unbelievable) stories of the rebbe would always come up. As well as how chabad does great work.....
 I wouldn't really consider that trying to "lure" us in.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
Some folks are willing to accept any L"H they hear about Chabad as truth, the juicier the better.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 04:29:33 PM
+1
I'm not Chabad, but from being around them for quite some time in the summer and on a shabbos, USUALLY the extent of it was trying to get us to learn tanya with them.
With every conversation though, some fascinating (unbelievable) stories of the rebbe would always come up. As well as how chabad does great work.....
 I wouldn't really consider that trying to lure us in.

Because nobody's trying to "lure" in anyone already frum.
Learning Tanya or a sicha isn't trying to lure someone in either.  They happen to be enjoyable to learn with a different flavor, at least it was for me coming from a litvak elementary school to a chabad high school.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: MC on May 16, 2014, 04:31:51 PM
I too, am not Chabad but many of my relatives and friends are... I have yet to see such a thing happen. My experience has only been positive non-missionary type of relationships.

As an aside, I work for a Kiruv organization and so many of our students come through Chabad first... The work they do is incredible and there are never hard feelings with Chabad about "stealing" students the way there are with other organizations. It's very much a let's work together to make people frum attitude.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Crazy tools on May 16, 2014, 04:37:23 PM
Because nobody's trying to "lure" in anyone already frum.
Learning Tanya or a sicha isn't trying to lure someone in either.  They happen to be enjoyable to learn with a different flavor, at least it was for me coming from a litvak elementary school to a chabad high school.
Just to clarify. That's what I meant. I don't feel that learning tanya is because they're trying to be "missionary"
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: menachem_m on May 16, 2014, 04:39:05 PM
+1
I'm not Chabad, but from being around them for quite some time in the summer and on a shabbos, USUALLY the extent of it was trying to get us to learn tanya with them.
With every conversation though, some fascinating (unbelievable) stories of the rebbe would always come up. As well as how chabad does great work.....
 I wouldn't really consider that trying to lure us in.
Trying to get someone to learn Chassidus ≠ trying to make someone Chabad.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: elit on May 16, 2014, 05:11:12 PM
I think this conversion is moving into the locked Chabad thread....
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ganizzy on May 16, 2014, 05:12:11 PM
Yes chabad tries to get people to learn chassidus.
But not to convert

When there were satmar or yerushalmi or others that became chabad,  the Rebbe told them to keep their levush.

I just find it interesting that they're told to stay away from parades and other things.  But when they're traveling and need chabad.... All of the sudden hakol beseder
When they have a relative out in the boondocks,  chabad is once again in the good books
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 05:15:29 PM
Yes chabad tries to get people to learn chassidus.
But not to convert

When there were satmar or yerushalmi or others that became chabad,  the Rebbe told them to keep their levush.

I just find it interesting that they're told to stay away from parades and other things.  But when they're traveling and need chabad.... All of the sudden hakol beseder
When they have a relative out in the boondocks,  chabad is once again in the good books


+1M
And not even talking about those who come to eat a meal at a Chabad house and sit there bashing Chabad as they eat (seen with my own eyes)...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 16, 2014, 05:52:55 PM
Chabad believe that the rest of klal Yisroel are missing out on what they call the "penimius hatorah". If they really think that everyone else is seriously lacking in Torah and yiddishkeit, the next logical conclusion is, that a chabadsker that is a real ohev Yisroel should attempt to be mekarev kerovim.
This theory is backed up by years of circumstantial evidence.
They clearly have a mission of " uforatzto " etc to spread their version of chassidus... They talk about it all the time. Even here on Ddf! Those people who offer to learn "chassidus" with you are just doing uforatzto.

If this what chabad teaches and you believe in it, why deny it... Embrace it!
I personally respect the sentiment. But I also respect satmars right to say no thanks.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 05:54:04 PM
Lol. And people call Chabad chasidim brainwashed.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 16, 2014, 05:56:37 PM
Lol. And people call Chabad chasidim brainwashed.
OK... Not doing this all over again. Peace out and good Shabbos!
:)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 05:59:51 PM
Good idea. Have a good shabbos.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ganizzy on May 16, 2014, 06:04:36 PM
Chabad believe that the rest of klal Yisroel are missing out on what they call the "penimius hatorah". If they really think that everyone else is seriously lacking in Torah and yiddishkeit, the next logical conclusion is, that a chabadsker that is a real ohev Yisroel should attempt to be mekarev kerovim.
This theory is backed up by years of circumstantial evidence.
They clearly have a mission of " uforatzto " etc to spread their version of chassidus... They talk about it all the time. Even here on Ddf! Those people who offer to learn "chassidus" with you are just doing uforatzto.

If this what chabad teaches and you believe in it, why deny it... Embrace it!
I personally respect the sentiment. But I also respect satmars right to say no thanks.

We are all saying that chabad encourages people to learn chassidus.  No one is denying it.

But that has nothing to do with converting people.  Bec u can learn chassidus and still be a misnagid,  satmar.....
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: sky121 on May 16, 2014, 06:05:50 PM


I just find it interesting that they're told to stay away from parades and other things.  But when they're traveling and need chabad.... All of the sudden hakol beseder
When they have a relative out in the boondocks,  chabad is once again in the good books

When I was little in school I use to feel like that when teachers would put down non religious people in certain ways but then it was a whole big event when they came touring the building and were donating money. 


IMO, There is nothing necessarily wrong with keeping separate in some instances if that's how you feel. The problem is the looking down on others unless it's convenient for you. 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: avremie on May 16, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
We are just trying to help the people that think נשתכחה תורת הבש"ט to let them know we found it :-)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: Saver2000 on May 16, 2014, 06:15:13 PM
I just find it interesting that they're told to stay away from parades and other things.  But when they're traveling and need chabad.... All of the sudden hakol beseder
When they have a relative out in the boondocks,  chabad is once again in the good books
Im not answering for satmar,  but in this instance,  what you're saying   doesn't make much sense.

The Kol Koreh was meant for the kids FWIU.  They don't want thier kids getting influences from chabad.  (and maybe thry suspect luring,  as others here have posted. )

That problem doesn't really exist with a normal  stable adult who already found his path over the last 20+ years of his life (hopefully).  (obviously we all have nisyonos,  but this isn't exactly a nisayaon)

I don't have a good comparison,  but I'll try. 

Would you want your  kids playing with the goyim on the block? Leaning all the curse words,  etc?

When they get older,  they  go to work,  and many times thier surrounded by goyim.  We hope by that age their hashkafas are already well built and very strong.  And because there's no alternative,  they go wrong with goyim.

I'm not comparing chabad to goyim. I'm comparing a different scenario for you to realize that  adult life and childlife aaren't the same -  influentialey.   
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 16, 2014, 06:22:01 PM
What churnbabychurd said is correct. Though the letter should be saying that exactly. And not what it says....

And to Dan, which other sect had a Mandel Vechter story? You make it sound as a simple flat lie...

Satmar learned a lesson once, and that was enough. Again I agree the letter was written by a hypocrite, but the point is as churnbabychurn said.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: dovy2 on May 16, 2014, 06:26:31 PM
Quote "eer vilt as aiyer kinder zul zein azoi vi zei?"

Hell ya...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Centro on May 16, 2014, 06:32:51 PM
What churnbabychurd said is correct. Though the letter should be saying that exactly. And not what it says....

And to Dan, which other sect had a Mandel Vechter story? You make it sound as a simple flat lie...

Satmar learned a lesson once, and that was enough. Again I agree the letter was written by a hypocrite, but the point is as churnbabychurn said.
And had this been organized by any other chassidus that dresses differently then them and has other hashkufois then them they would have banned it as well, in this scenario it's lubavitch.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 16, 2014, 06:52:31 PM
What churnbabychurd said is correct. Though the letter should be saying that exactly. And not what it says....

And to Dan, which other sect had a Mandel Vechter story? You make it sound as a simple flat lie...

Satmar learned a lesson once, and that was enough. Again I agree the letter was written by a hypocrite, but the point is as churnbabychurn said.
I'm not a historian.
All I know today is that the Chabad that I spent 8 years in yeshivas and centers around the world couldn't care less about making someone frum "become chabad" and doesn't feel that any other jew, frum or not, is worth any less than if they were chabad.
Nor is there a feeling that anyone frum is lacking something.

Though yes, we do believe the BS"T was told by mashiach that we'll be zoche to mashiach when the BS"Ts wellsprings are spread and that it's not a crime to offer to learn chassidus with someone.  But we're not to take some random kid off the street and start learning tanya with them, that's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 16, 2014, 07:07:58 PM
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=30276&alias=attempts-to-ban-great-parade
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: sky121 on May 16, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Oh brother. :-\
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: lubaby on May 16, 2014, 07:19:13 PM
Apparently Lag B'Omer is a hard (discriminatory?) time for Yidden everywhere, not just Chabad.
Don't mean to C"V compare the reasonings here, it's just interesting seeing what different communities bring to the table as "issues".
Intense preparations are underway for this year’s Minyan Shelanu Lag Ba’omer barbecue and raffle event. The event this year will once again be held in the parking lot of the Blue Claws stadium, lakewood, NJ on the 18th of May.

.....
.....
.....

Tznius at the event will also be a priority, says Minyan Shelanu.

“In an effort to keep this year’s Lag Ba’omer Barbecue/Raffle event a fun and spiritual event for all, Minyan Shelanu kindly requests that teenage girls not attend the event unless accompanied by a parent.”
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: sky121 on May 16, 2014, 07:24:32 PM
Is there ever going to be a solution? 
Sigh.

Enough of this.

Have a wonderful Shabbos Ya''ll and enjoy Lag Baomer...  One of my favorite days of the year. ^-^
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 16, 2014, 07:31:37 PM
I'm completely neutral here.

But Chabad isn't trying to influence other sects by making their minhag with big pomp for other kids of different chassidusen in BP where there are a negligible amount of Chabad Chasidim?

FTR: If my kids will be bored I might take them. I have done so a few times in the past.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: menachem_m on May 16, 2014, 07:38:25 PM
Again, Trying to get someone to learn Chassidus ≠ trying to make someone Chabad.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 16, 2014, 07:40:26 PM
Parade ≠ Chassidus
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Saver2000 on May 16, 2014, 07:42:13 PM
Again, Trying to get someone to learn Chassidus ≠ trying to make someone Chabad.
Obviously some non-chabadniks don't get that impression.
(and obviously all chabadninks will agree with that no matter what)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 16, 2014, 07:52:22 PM
Again, Trying to get someone to learn Chassidus ≠ trying to make someone Chabad.

Also depends on which type of Chassidus learning.
Is it Noam Elimelech, Ohev Yisrael and Maor VeShamesh? Or is it Tanya.
Obviously, mainly one version of it.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Centro on May 16, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
You guys have it quite wrong;

It's not about Lubavitch, it's not about Tanya and it's not about chassidus,
It's just that Satmar gives much a stricter Chinuch then everyone else, therefore they'll try to keep there kids from gatherings or so which would give there child a different point of view of which they see at home, for example, marching on the streets with caps, etc.

A child gets different feelings and starts wanting different things,
That's basically why Satmar banned this parade,
It has nothing to do with the fact that Lubavitch is the one who's organizing it,

Look, they didn't ban the simches bies ha'shievah on 13th even though it's Lubavitch.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: jj1000 on May 16, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
Im not answering for satmar,  but in this instance,  what you're saying   doesn't make much sense.

The Kol Koreh was meant for the kids FWIU.  They don't want thier kids getting influences from chabad.  (and maybe thry suspect luring,  as others here have posted. )

That problem doesn't really exist with a normal  stable adult who already found his path over the last 20+ years of his life (hopefully).  (obviously we all have nisyonos,  but this isn't exactly a nisayaon)

I don't have a good comparison,  but I'll try. 

Would you want your  kids playing with the goyim on the block? Leaning all the curse words,  etc?

When they get older,  they  go to work,  and many times thier surrounded by goyim.  We hope by that age their hashkafas are already well built and very strong.  And because there's no alternative,  they go wrong with goyim.

I'm not comparing chabad to goyim. I'm comparing a different scenario for you to realize that  adult life and childlife aaren't the same -  influentialey.   

I think you just summed up the problem Dan has very well and how he compared it to the reason the temple was destroyed and why we mourn during sfira.

The problem is that some sects of Judaism look at others as if they are goyim and they can't associate or have their children play with each other. At the Parade they say psakim from tanach get treats and maybe sing some jewish songs. If you can't allow yidishe children to get together to do say psakim and tehhilim and posibbly even say we want moshiach now *gasp* then ya it is a major problem.

All hashkafas aside if someone is frum you can't look at them as goyim and that you'd be afraid to let your kid attend one of "their" events is sad IMHO and definitely not achdus.

I don't think this is the view of most satmar anyway, and this whole letter and call is probably a hoax.

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ganizzy on May 16, 2014, 08:11:02 PM
Vechter wasn't trying to make anyone chabad, he was teaching tanya.
He found it,  loved it and choose to share.
I guess it was a big enough crime to almost be killed for.

And what's interesting is,  is that he prob wouldn't have become chabad if he ant forced to leave satmar. He would have been chabad friendly,  learned tanya and gone to the Rebbe once every few years.

The point of the parade isn't too spread chabad minhogim,  it's too unite all Jews by having a parade showcasing Jewish pride.
Each organization makes a float depicting a Jewish theme. There's speeches. ...

The fact is that this is the Boro Park parade.  There will be barely any lubavitchers there, so they can't say do u want to end up like them.
And the shluchim in Boro Park  dress in Boro Park standards
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: jj1000 on May 16, 2014, 08:22:19 PM
$20 says the Shluchim in BP made the letter and phone call to make it controversial so they will get a bigger turn out. :))
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: SamKey on May 17, 2014, 06:58:33 PM
FWIW I have gotten the feeling from numerous encounters with chabadniks (far from all), especially Israeli ones, that they were trying to "chap"me
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: oiseli48 on May 17, 2014, 09:47:22 PM
If Satmar wants to keep their kids under their watch Lag B'Omer, maybe it's time someone tells them to make their own parade, instead of just forbidding someone else's.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: theberk on May 17, 2014, 11:25:03 PM
$20 says the Shluchim in BP made the letter and phone call to make it controversial so they will get a bigger turn out. :))
They didn't make it but they don't mind it.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 02:56:59 AM
I think you just summed up the problem Dan has very well and how he compared it to the reason the temple was destroyed and why we mourn during sfira.

The problem is that some sects of Judaism look at others as if they are goyim and they can't associate or have their children play with each other. At the Parade they say psakim from tanach get treats and maybe sing some jewish songs. If you can't allow yidishe children to get together to do say psakim and tehhilim and posibbly even say we want moshiach now *gasp* then ya it is a major problem.

All hashkafas aside if someone is frum you can't look at them as goyim and that you'd be afraid to let your kid attend one of "their" events is sad IMHO and definitely not achdus.

I don't think this is the view of most satmar anyway, and this whole letter and call is probably a hoax.

I wasn't planning on posting on this thread, as I personally wouldn't have any issue with my kids attending the parade, but I respect the view of those who do. But this post was very upsetting. "some sects of Judaism look at others as if they are goyim" - assuming you are referring to Satmar, the topic of this discussion - if Satmar really does consider chabadniks as if they are goyim, why did they put an unbelievable effort into raising money for the Rubashkin cause, like no other orthodox community did? Why would they set up the call center to donate money for a Chabadnik in a village none other than Kiryas Yoel?
I'm not trying to condone the letter, just pointing out that it is a difference in chinuch and nothing else. And I would expect you to use the very same ahavas yisroel and respect this way of child-rearing, just like you would probably expect the MO to respect the restrictions all of us ultra-orthodox implement into our chinuch which they don't.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: plainbachur on May 18, 2014, 03:12:22 AM

I wasn't planning on posting on this thread, as I personally wouldn't have any issue with my kids attending the parade, but I respect the view of those who do. But this post was very upsetting. "some sects of Judaism look at others as if they are goyim" - assuming you are referring to Satmar, the topic of this discussion - if Satmar really does consider chabadniks as if they are goyim, why did they put in an unbelievable amount of effort to raise money for the Rubashkin cause, like no other orthodox community did? Why would they set up the call center to donate money for a Chabadnik in a village none other than Kiryas Yoel?
I'm not trying to condone the letter, just pointing out that it is a difference in chinuch and nothing else. And I would expect you to use the very same ahavas yisroel and respect this way of child-rearing, just like you would probably expect the MO to respect the restrictions all of us ultra-orthodox implement into our chinuch which they don't.
rubashkin is a non chabad matter don't bring into this thread
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: sillypainter on May 18, 2014, 03:20:46 AM
rubashkin is a non chabad matter don't bring into this thread

If you don't have anything intelligent to say, then don't.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 03:32:02 AM
rubashkin is a non chabad matter don't bring into this thread
Wasn't referring to the Rubashkin matter per se. Just pointing out that he considers himself Chabad, and as such, according to JJ, Satmar would've considered him a goy and wouldn't have loved him like a fellow Jew. I don't believe this to be true.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ganizzy on May 18, 2014, 03:34:29 AM
I think the issue isn't so much about people not wanting their kids to go,  I can understand that.
It's that the tone of the letter and the call make it seem more anti chabad then anti lowering standards.

When u couple the wording with the history u get the automatic defensive reaction.

And rubashkin isn't the only example of satmars ahavas yisrael to chabad.  There is more,  but there is also a pretty strong history and a general feeling.

 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 03:42:08 AM
I think the issue isn't so much about people not wanting their kids to go,  I can understand that.
It's that the tone of the letter and the call make it seem more anti chabad then anti lowering standards.

When u couple the wording with the history u get the automatic defensive reaction.

And rubashkin isn't the only example of satmars ahavas yisrael to chabad.  There is more,  but there is also a pretty strong history and a general feeling.
I wouldn't have worded it that way either. But I wouldn't have worded the problem as considering them to be goyim. It's just Satmar's strong, outspoken style at work here.
"but there is also a pretty strong history and a general feeling" - yeah, same here... hence the harshness of it all.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: joeb1 on May 18, 2014, 08:49:50 AM
They are allowed to tell their kids not to to go to the parade but there are many ways to do something and negative flyers and phone calls like that ain't the way to go
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: TimT on May 18, 2014, 09:10:42 AM
I take my kids there every year. It's always beautiful. They're not trying to chap anyone in. The program is always full of non-Lubavitcher speakers.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Vosizderneias on May 18, 2014, 10:43:31 AM
Theres a sect in nigeria called "western education is a sin" AKA boko haram, they gather inspiration for what they do via being anti-everything etc. 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 18, 2014, 11:11:47 AM
Theres a sect in nigeria called "western education is a sin" AKA boko haram, they gather inspiration for what they do via being anti-everything etc. 
The way to fight disrespect is not by showing disrespect...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Vosizderneias on May 18, 2014, 12:09:31 PM

The way to fight disrespect is not by showing disrespect...
no disrespect intended, and fore sure not a fight. But theres a pretty clear correlation between ideologies of getting inspired by being against other people.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 12:44:07 PM
Theres a sect in nigeria called "western education is a sin" AKA boko haram, they gather inspiration for what they do via being anti-everything etc.
...and so they kidnap innocent little girls to force them to become like them.
Now please try to help me understand how you compare them to Satmar, a community whose chessed and bikur cholim organizations help every Jew in need from all types and stripes - Chassidish, Litvish, modern, Yemenite, Persian (special Satmar organization for the last two) etc.
Satmar has a shittah which is different from most orthodox, so we like to keep to ourselves. That does not mean we hate those who don't follow our ways. Absolutely not. It's about the shittah and nothing else, no intention to be davka anti anyone for the sake of being anti. Granted, the language leaves room for improvement. But it's the bark that is worse than the bite (or kiss...)
I don't think Lubavitch does much to mingle with other Yidden either (and yes, they do it in a much quiter way which I find commendable). Their attendance at multi-community events which are not organized by them and them alone is, I think, even less than that of Satmar. Is it because you consider all other Yidden to be Goyim? Is it because you are anti everyone?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 18, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
...and so they kidnap innocent little girls to force them to become like them.
Now please try to help me understand how you compare them to Satmar, a community whose chessed and bikur cholim organizations help every Jew in need from all types and stripes - Chassidish, Litvish, modern, Yemenite, Persian (special Satmar organization for the last two) etc.
Satmar has a shittah which is different from most orthodox, so we like to keep to ourselves. That does not mean we hate those who don't follow our ways. Absolutely not. It's about the shittah and nothing else, no intention to be davka anti anyone for the sake of being anti. Granted, the language leaves room for improvement. But it's the bark that is worse than the bite (or kiss...)
I don't think Lubavitch does much to mingle with other Yidden either (and yes, they do it in a much quiter way which I find commendable). Their attendance at multi-community events which are not organized by them and them alone is, I think, even less than that of Satmar. Is it because you consider all other Yidden to be Goyim? Is it because you are anti everyone?

I agree with your reading of the post-machlokes Satmar.
It used to not be this way. The 1980's aren't forgotten so fast.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 01:10:07 PM
It used to not be this way. The 1980's aren't forgotten so fast.
Once again - Yeah, same here... and there are still tape recordings for proof. (You're Belz, right?)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 18, 2014, 01:21:37 PM
Correct
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 01:39:23 PM
Correct
So were talking about machlokes which were caused by very personal attacks and then disproportionate retaliation. Both were wrong IMO, but neither of them more wrong than the other. This has nothing to do with being anti anyone just because their view is different than ours. The Satmar Rebbe zt"l kept close ties with many gedolim that held different opinions but had as much kavod hatorah and kavod zekeinim to respect his view for the great talmid chacham and Torah leader that he was.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 18, 2014, 01:52:39 PM
And the root to it all was one side trying to impose its worldview on the rest of Torah Jewry. Let's not lose the forest for the trees.
And this was the point I wanted to make in the first place.
Chabad might have tried certain things, but in its history it never used coercion by intimidation.
Yes, Satmar has changed a lot in recent years. Mostly IMHO  due to circumstances of internal strife and loss of power over events in Torah Jewry in America due to loss in public opinion rather than any change in shita.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 18, 2014, 02:41:39 PM
And the root to it all was one side trying to impose its worldview on the rest of Torah Jewry. Let's not lose the forest for the trees.
And this was the point I wanted to make in the first place.
Chabad might have tried certain things, but in its history it never used coercion by intimidation.
Yes, Satmar has changed a lot in recent years. Mostly IMHO  due to circumstances of internal strife and loss of power over events in Torah Jewry in America due to loss in public opinion rather than any change in shita.
Alright, this is not going the way I intended it to. I was very careful to stay away from blaming one side only, and to take the blame for what we are responsible. Doesn't seem like you are planning to do so. Let's just say that there are 2 sides to what you are mentioning above but I am keeping mine to myself.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: TimT on May 18, 2014, 06:13:02 PM
It was beautiful as usual. Nobody was trying to influence anyone. I've taken my kids for several years & they still don't even know that it's done by Lubavitch. R' Ginzberg does an amazing job every year. & yes, there were plenty of satmarers there.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: A European on May 18, 2014, 06:17:05 PM
Well said!

Satmar unfortunately had their bad experience with chabad when one of their teachers was caught influencing his students to join chabad. They respect chabad very much, but they have a right to shelter their young children from leaving their Mesorah.

That's a lie!
The magid shiur (harav Vechter) did not  convinced no one to join chabad!

They caught him learning chassidus chabad, so they kicked him out of satmer and told his x-talmidim that he is a kofer.....,

but you can't lie just like this to kids/bochurim so they went to Crown Hights to check the place where their beloved teacher "became a kofer" (because they know that it is impossible that such a yrei shomaim when off the way!)

And guess what they found there.......a real kolel! (yes! they were told in satmer that Chabad don't learn and are frei women don't go to the mikve......)

And the rest is history....


P.S. I think that today satmer is not so close minded any more about lubavich but I know 100% that that was the case back then...

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 18, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
That's a lie!
The magid shiur (harav Vechter) did not  convinced no one to join chabad!

They caught him learning chassidus chabad, so they kicked him out of satmer and told his x-talmidim that he is a kofer.....,

but you can't lie just like this to kids/bochurim so they went to Crown Hights to check the place where their beloved teacher "became a kofer" (because they know that it is impossible that such a yrei shomaim when off the way!)

And guess what they found there.......a real kolel! (yes! they were told in satmer that Chabad don't learn and are frei women don't go to the mikve......)

And the rest is history....


P.S. I think that today satmer is not so close minded any more about lubavich but I know 100% that that was the case back then...
And I know 100% that that was NOT the case.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: A European on May 18, 2014, 06:47:55 PM
And I know 100% that that was NOT the case.
I have some very close friends from this community (x-satmer now lubavich) so I know the story pretty well.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: meshugener on May 18, 2014, 10:32:56 PM
This is nothing to do with hate.
There are very strong hashkafik disagreements between many sects and chabad. (-really?!  ;) ) For whatever reason, Chabad always had an interest in selling/trying to influence others to their derech and hashkafa. -Arguably this is what the parade idea was all about.- Satmar and others are entitled to raise their kids al pi their derech without the kids having undue influence from other mehalchim. When I was growing up, we were also warned very strongly not to go near the chabad parades which were designed to entertain and entice kids....

Not trying to start a chabad bashing fest, I just don't think that satmar is so out of line here at all.
f*** you
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 18, 2014, 10:37:23 PM
f*** you
Let's not turn this into a CBC bashing fest :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 18, 2014, 10:59:17 PM
I love CBC as much as I love any other yid, especially a DDFer, but this poster has repeatedly proven himself to be nothing more than a DDFer; a baby churner and a Chabad hater.

Whenever the Chabad topic comes up He's the first to jump and post something negative. This is just annoying.

I grew up with the assumption that the satmars are saving the world from the the Chabad epidemic, I didn't realize we have serious competition in Lakewood.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 18, 2014, 11:02:43 PM
That's a lie!
The magid shiur (harav Vechter) did not  convinced no one to join chabad!

They caught him learning chassidus chabad, so they kicked him out of satmer and told his x-talmidim that he is a kofer.....,

but you can't lie just like this to kids/bochurim so they went to Crown Hights to check the place where their beloved teacher "became a kofer" (because they know that it is impossible that such a yrei shomaim when off the way!)

And guess what they found there.......a real kolel! (yes! they were told in satmer that Chabad don't learn and are frei women don't go to the mikve......)

And the rest is history....


P.S. I think that today satmer is not so close minded any more about lubavich but I know 100% that that was the case back then...
I'm not going to add more than that what YOU just said is a lie.
Good night chabad, litvaks and satmar. see you tomorrow
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Freddie on May 18, 2014, 11:47:31 PM
I don't think Lubavitch does much to mingle with other Yidden either (and yes, they do it in a much quiter way which I find commendable). Their attendance at multi-community events which are not organized by them and them alone is, I think, even less than that of Satmar.

This is what Lubavitch and Satmar have most in common with each other and why they continue to be the two biggest "brand names" in Yiddishkeit.

As they say, don't dilute your brand.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dr Moose on May 19, 2014, 12:17:08 AM
This is what Lubavitch and Satmar have most in common with each other and why they continue to be the two biggest "brand names" in Yiddishkeit.

As they say, don't dilute your brand.
I suppose if I'm litvish then I'm an "off brand"?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 20, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
I love CBC as much as I love any other yid, especially a DDFer, but this poster has repeatedly proven himself to be nothing more than a DDFer; a baby churner and a Chabad hater.

Whenever the Chabad topic comes up He's the first to jump and post something negative. This is just annoying.

I grew up with the assumption that the satmars are saving the world from the the Chabad epidemic, I didn't realize we have serious competition in Lakewood.
OK... Not doing this all over again. Peace out and good Shabbos!
:)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Freddie on May 20, 2014, 06:13:14 PM
I suppose if I'm litvish then I'm an "off brand"?

Yes, like Kirkland.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: zale on May 21, 2014, 12:07:44 PM
Well said!

Satmar unfortunately had their bad experience with chabad when one of their teachers was caught influencing his students to join chabad. They respect chabad very much, but they have a right to shelter their young children from leaving their Mesorah.

I don't want to start a fight here but attempts to influence children from another sect to join your ranks is nothing better than a missionary.

Nobody was influencing Satmar students to join Chabad. They were teaching them Chabad Chassidus, something which does not impede with their Mesorah.

As for Satmar, they slit the throat of this teacher and left him naked on the side of a highway to die. Another teacher was beaten and had his beard cut off. (For the record, one of the guys involved in the beard-cutting is now serving a 70 year sentence for molesting young girls.)

But Chabad are the bad guys here, right?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 21, 2014, 12:24:24 PM
http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=68531
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: MarkS on May 21, 2014, 12:29:36 PM
Granted this was at the CH parade and not BP, but I did find the waking up in the grave part a drop strange.

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 21, 2014, 12:33:18 PM
Granted this was at the CH parade and not BP, but I did find the waking up in the grave part a drop strange.

Not getting into the rest of the paraphernalia involved there, do you not believe in T'chiyas Hameisim?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: zale on May 21, 2014, 12:37:27 PM
Granted this was at the CH parade and not BP, but I did find the waking up in the grave part a drop strange.

Strange? Yes. Inappropriate?  Yes.

But, these guys were not part of the official parade and went with along with the procession without permission. They yellow flag fellows are a rogue group of individuals that like to call themselves Chabad. Not my problem.

On a side note, do you believe in Techiyas Hameisim? Or is it some looney old fantasy tale?

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: MarkS on May 21, 2014, 12:37:37 PM
Not getting into the rest of the paraphernalia involved there, do you not believe in T'chiyas Hameisim?
Of course I do. I still think it's weird to put bochurim in fake graves to demonstrate it.

I believe in Moshiach too. Don't you think it would be weird if someone dressed up in a long white beard  pretending to be Moshiach with another guy next to him dressed up like Moshe Rabeinu?

But, these guys were not part of the official parade and went with along with the procession without permission. They yellow flag fellows are a rogue group of individuals that like to call themselves Chabad. Not my problem.
Not your problem, but it goes on at the parade. I don't know if this went on at the BP parade also, but if so does that make it more understandable why Satmar wanted to stay away?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 21, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
Of course I do. I still think it's weird to put bochurim in fake graves to demonstrate it.


The fact that it was Bochurim might be a bit over the top but I think almost every year there is at least one Techiyas Hameisim display that has dummies/dolls coming out of graves.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: menachem_m on May 21, 2014, 12:50:04 PM
But, these guys were not part of the official parade and went with along with the procession without permission. They yellow flag fellows are a rogue group of individuals that like to call themselves Chabad. Not my problem.
Well put. No group is immune from their fair share of 'kochavim'.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 21, 2014, 12:52:30 PM
Well put. No group is immune from their fair share of 'kochavim'.
Some groups have more than their 'fair' share... :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 21, 2014, 05:02:32 PM
Nobody was influencing Satmar students to join Chabad. They were teaching them Chabad Chassidus, something which does not impede with their Mesorah.

As for Satmar, they slit the throat of this teacher and left him naked on the side of a highway to die. Another teacher was beaten and had his beard cut off. (For the record, one of the guys involved in the beard-cutting is now serving a 70 year sentence for molesting young girls.)

But Chabad are the bad guys here, right?
You're a shameless hypocrite.

When it comes to Satmar you say:



As for Satmar, they slit the throat of this teacher and left him naked on the side of a highway to die. Another teacher was beaten and had his beard cut off. (For the record, one of the guys involved in the beard-cutting is now serving a 70 year sentence for molesting young girls.)

But Chabad are the bad guys here, right?


But when it comes to Chabad, you have more of a tolerable behavior:




But, these guys were not part of the official parade and went with along with the procession without permission. They yellow flag fellows are a rogue group of individuals that like to call themselves Chabad. Not my problem.




Ye ye...

(http://skitguys.com/images/products/hypocrite.jpg)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 21, 2014, 05:17:52 PM
You're a shameless hypocrite.

When it comes to Satmar you say:


But when it comes to Chabad, you have more of a tolerable behavior:

 


Ye ye...

(http://skitguys.com/images/products/hypocrite.jpg)
The difference being that the Satmar leadership refused to apologize back then while the Chabad leadership has been denouncing these wackos non-stop...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 21, 2014, 05:18:21 PM
The difference being that the Satmar leadership refused to apologize back then while the Chabad leadership has been denouncing these wackos non-stop...
You have a point.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: yoshi on May 21, 2014, 06:56:30 PM
You have a point.
I respect your ability to admit when you are wrong.
10 points!
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: ilherman on May 21, 2014, 10:26:53 PM
Nobody was influencing Satmar students to join Chabad. They were teaching them Chabad Chassidus, something which does not impede with their Mesorah.

As for Satmar, they slit the throat of this teacher and left him naked on the side of a highway to die. Another teacher was beaten and had his beard cut off. (For the record, one of the guys involved in the beard-cutting is now serving a 70 year sentence for molesting young girls.)

But Chabad are the bad guys here, right?
::) ::)  They were looking for evidence back then, where were you?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: MenachemS on May 22, 2014, 08:57:11 AM
Chabad is not a secret society with secret meetings and secret plans..

Everything that we do should be based of the Rebbes teaching (Sichos, Igros and Maamarim) which are widely available in a number of languages. That is Chabad.

We have Lag Baomer parades NOT to convert anyone, that is ridiculous. It's to promote Torah, Mitzvos and Achdus among Jewish children, whoever they may be.

As for learning Chassidus we believe that it is important to a. increase in Yiras Shomayim, b. prepare for Moshiach (Amosai Ko'osi Mar..). This is something we believe that is worthy for all Yidden, not just Chabadniks, but we certainly are not trying to make everyone "Chabadniks". I don't know of anyone on such a mission and it is definitely not what the Rebbe stood for.

The reason why we learn Tanya, is because we believe that is a greater revelation (in depth and breadth) of Penimiyus Hatorah to the average person than the Chassidus that came before it. And that is why there was more Hisnagdus to the Alter Rebbe. The Noam Elimelech himself proclaimed about the Tanya "a G-d so big into such a little book!".

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ckmk47 on May 22, 2014, 09:51:55 AM
I don't know if this went on at the BP parade also, but if so does that make it more understandable why Satmar wanted to stay away?
The BP parade stays away from meshichism.  Completely.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: zale on May 22, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
::) ::)  They were looking for evidence back then, where were you?

Oh, you mean he may not be guilty?

OK then, he's serving 70 years for ALLEGEDLY molesting a young girl.

Word is that during his trial he called the Chossid whom he beat and cut his beard and asked for mechila. The Chossid offered Mechila without asking questions.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: zale on May 22, 2014, 01:48:02 PM
You're a shameless hypocrite.

when it comes to Chabad, you have more of a tolerable behavior..

You mean to say that cutting a mans throat and leaving him naked on the freeway is the same as waiving yellow flags?

For the record, Chabad reached out to the Satmar leadership "Hisachdus Horabbonim" at the time and asked them to condemn and punish those who were involved. The response was that they were "afraid" of this group and could not control them or tell them what to do. 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 22, 2014, 01:48:16 PM
I'm out of this.
PM me in case there's something fun going on here.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: A European on May 22, 2014, 03:18:40 PM
I'm out of this.
PM me in case there's something fun going on here.
Are you satmer?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: etech0 on May 22, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Are you satmer?
thinking up a shidduch?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 22, 2014, 04:12:25 PM
Are you satmer?
Yes
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 22, 2014, 06:26:25 PM
thinking up a shidduch?
He is married (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=profile;u=10815).
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Freddie on May 22, 2014, 08:25:01 PM
Are you satmer?

Yes

Can you explain this? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=7687.msg181285#msg181285

Seems like a discrepancy.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: jj1000 on May 22, 2014, 08:25:45 PM
Can you explain this? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=7687.msg181285#msg181285

Seems like a discrepancy.
He's a liar. Old news.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 22, 2014, 08:51:06 PM
He's a liar. Old news.
(http://www.auburntron.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/you_mad.jpg)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: jj1000 on May 22, 2014, 08:58:32 PM
(http://www.auburntron.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/you_mad.jpg)
I call em how I see em.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: DovtheBear on May 22, 2014, 09:09:58 PM
(http://www.auburntron.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/you_mad.jpg)
Meh. The first one was better.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Joe4007 on May 22, 2014, 09:51:35 PM
Can you explain this? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=7687.msg181285#msg181285

Seems like a discrepancy.
Nah. If you know him, that would only serve as a confirmation :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 22, 2014, 10:18:25 PM
Nah. If you know him, that would only serve as a confirmation :P
Finding such a good friend like you on DDF today is like finding a jellybean in my cholent.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 22, 2014, 10:47:12 PM
Finding such a good friend like you on DDF today is like finding a jellybean in my chulent.
FTFY.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Centro on May 22, 2014, 10:53:43 PM
FTFY.
;D.  (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=41543.msg815336.msg#815336)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: MeirS on May 23, 2014, 04:03:35 AM
Oh, you mean he may not be guilty?

OK then, he's serving 70 years for ALLEGEDLY molesting a young girl.

Word is that during his trial he called the Chossid whom he beat and cut his beard and asked for mechila. The Chossid offered Mechila without asking questions.
Apparently he said that it's not his kovod that he was poge'a in and advised him to go to the Ohel to ask mechila.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 23, 2014, 10:28:43 AM
FTFY.
  ;)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: henche on May 23, 2014, 10:36:13 AM
Nobody was influencing Satmar students to join Chabad. They were teaching them Chabad Chassidus, something which does not impede with their Mesorah.

As for Satmar, they slit the throat of this teacher and left him naked on the side of a highway to die. Another teacher was beaten and had his beard cut off. (For the record, one of the guys involved in the beard-cutting is now serving a 70 year sentence for molesting young girls.)

But Chabad are the bad guys here, right?

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

You pulling our leg?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 23, 2014, 11:55:58 AM
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

You pulling our leg?
Unfortunately no...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade
Post by: zale on May 23, 2014, 01:04:49 PM
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

You pulling our leg?

That is what they did. Not surprised that you are shocked by this.

They also threw rocks at Mitzvah Tanks... But I don't want to tell all the stories in one thread :-X



Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: lubaby on May 23, 2014, 01:20:35 PM
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

You pulling our leg?
Unfortunately no...
These are stories that Chabad kids grow up hearing.
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/21/nyregion/hasidic-rabbi-s-beard-is-cut-in-an-abduction-in-brooklyn.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/22/nyregion/attack-on-rabbi-brings-anguish-to-borough-park.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/27/nyregion/man-cleared-of-cutting-hasidic-rabbi-s-beard.html


I think this conversion is moving into the locked Chabad thread....
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: henche on May 23, 2014, 04:39:41 PM
These are stories that Chabad kids grow up hearing.
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/21/nyregion/hasidic-rabbi-s-beard-is-cut-in-an-abduction-in-brooklyn.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/22/nyregion/attack-on-rabbi-brings-anguish-to-borough-park.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/27/nyregion/man-cleared-of-cutting-hasidic-rabbi-s-beard.html
That is what they did. Not surprised that you are shocked by this.

They also threw rocks at Mitzvah Tanks... But I don't want to tell all the stories in one thread :-X





None of those are about killing somebody.  As horrible as they are.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: bochur123 on May 23, 2014, 06:04:12 PM
One article mentioned Lacerations on he's neck...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: henche on May 23, 2014, 06:12:45 PM
One article mentioned Lacerations on he's neck...

The accusation was that they slit his neck and left him for dead.

Look,  I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing what happened.   Just some lawyerly tips: when the facts are on your side, it pays to stick to them.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 25, 2014, 12:38:37 AM
The accusation was that they slit his neck and left him for dead.

Look,  I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing what happened.   Just some lawyerly tips: when the facts are on your side, it pays to stick to them.
None of my fellow Satmar chassidim who remembered this parshah had any recollection of attacks other than what was mentioned in these articles. (And I, too, am in no way trying to minimize these attacks.) One of them, the daughter of a then prominent staff member in Satmar yeshiva, added that she remembers being harassed by Lubavitchers threatening over the phone to burn down their home.
I make it a point to try to look at things from an unbiased perspective, so I thought that the guilty party might have hidden the truth from other Satmar members. Now I'm starting to suspect that the more horrific version is actually a fabrication, although I am still open to accept the truth if it could be proven.
They also filled me in on some very important missing details about Vechter's actions, which explained - not justified! - the parents' measures to prevent further deceit and aggravation. I don't like to "bashmutz" Jews on a public forum, but let's just say that it seems it wasn't as pashut as some here are trying to portray.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 25, 2014, 01:02:40 AM
And the root to it all was one side trying to impose its worldview on the rest of Torah Jewry. Let's not lose the forest for the trees.
And this was the point I wanted to make in the first place.
Chabad might have tried certain things, but in its history it never used coercion by intimidation.
Yes, Satmar has changed a lot in recent years. Mostly IMHO  due to circumstances of internal strife and loss of power over events in Torah Jewry in America due to loss in public opinion rather than any change in shita.
I've already replied that I wasn't interested in getting involved in an "it's your fault that we did what we did" type of argument, although I technically could retort in such a manner. But I was a bit disturbed by your last statement, which implies that the original Satmar shitah was to fight against anyone who doesn't accept our beliefs. I was planning to look into this, and then on Shabbos I happened to read a piece in a Yiddish weekly which I found very interesting. It's from an interview with Rabbi Yecheskel Roth shlita, Karlsburger Rav.
ש: דער רב איז א קנאי וואס איז גרייט צו ליידן אויפן דעת תורה, אבער דער רב... גייט באזוכן אלע רבנים און רבי'ס און לעבט מיט יעדן בשלום... איז נישט קנאות א סתירה מיט שלום?
ת: אין דעם נושא האב איך איין מורה דרך, דער רבי זי"ע. ער איז דאך געווען דער עמוד האש פון קנאות און ער איז געגאנגען באזוכן די רבי'ס פון גור, וויזניץ, הגאון רבי אהרן קאטלער וועמען ער האט אזוי מספיד געווען. אפילו עסקנים פון אגודה האט דער רבי שיין אויפגענומען, און די עסקנים פון חינוך עצמאי, דער רבי האט זיי אפי' געגעבן געלט צו שטיצן. דער רבי האט אויסגעלערנט אז מען דארף זיין מיט יעדן איד א ידיד און נאר לוחם זיין פאר'ן אמת קעגן דעם שקר, אבער נישט מענטשן איינער קעגן דעם צווייטן.
The same article mentions that when the Satmar Rebbe appointed Rav Roth as Satmar Dayan in Boro Park, he referred to him as "mein Reb Cheskele". This Lashon chibah, which was out of character for the Rebbe, should give Rav Roth the credence to state the Rebbe's shittah as it truly was, more than any hothead would try to convince you.

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 25, 2014, 01:15:35 AM
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and came to Belz to apologize.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 25, 2014, 01:26:14 AM
2 comments.

The facts of history don't change. The actions were there regardless of what he said. Most of it after he passed away.

And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and come to Belz to apologize.
OK, so if it was after the Satmar Rebbe passed away, then why would you refer to it as the shittah? What some - even many - Satmars did isn't necessarily the Satmar shittah, which refers to the teachings of the Divrei Yoel zt"l.
Rav Roth was kicked out for a different reason entirely, which has nothing to do with his shalom'dige policy and everything to do with a certain issur he paskened. This does nothing to prove that Satmar disapproves of Shalom. I sort of expected you to bring this up here, after getting to know your style of a debate.
I know that Rav Roth went to Belz, as did Rav Aharon of Satmar, but I haven't heard about the apologizing. I know some Roth grandchildren, who still send their kids to Satmar mosdos. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 01:30:27 AM
All I know today is that the Chabad that I spent 8 years in yeshivas and centers around the world couldn't care less about making someone frum "become chabad" and doesn't feel that any other jew, frum or not, is worth any less than if they were chabad.
Nor is there a feeling that anyone frum is lacking something.

Quote
The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Freddie on May 25, 2014, 01:31:31 AM
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 25, 2014, 01:40:55 AM
Nobody accuses the Satmar Rov zatza"l of being the one who led or even fomented or even would have approved of the attacks.

These individuals acted on their own.

What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ganizzy on May 25, 2014, 01:44:29 AM
R' Korf was asked by these bochrim to teach them tanya, he didnt go out and trick them into learning. He was actually set up to get "caught" in the instance mentioned in the paper

as for slitting the throat - from what i understand - and i heard the story from the wife and daughters,
is that his beard was violently cut off leaving lacerations to his neck - but life threatening ones. similiar to the throat being cut. and he was left on the street.

his family went out searching for him, otherwise.....

his former students who respected and admired him went to find the truth of what happened, and ended up learning tanya - apparently a capitol crime

in any case, why is this discussion needed? the relationship between chabad and satmar are different now. its not the best, but something like this would not happen again.

and punk farkert, there are many cases of Satmar helping Chabad and vice versa.

i mentioned "there is  history" to understand the context of why we were getting defensive about the parade ban instead of just attributing it to regular Satmar behavior against "outside influences" , but doesn't mean we need to dredge up all the history and rehash it.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2014, 01:46:59 AM
    The rabbi, Pinchas Korf, 49, a member of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, was assaulted a year ago today when he went to a building in Brooklyn in the Williamsburg section, a Satmar stronghold, to give religious instruction to the teen-age son of a Satmar family, according to the prosecution.
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Freddie on May 25, 2014, 02:25:02 AM
My comments about the Satmar Rebbe were only in response to Moshe's term "shittah".
I share your feelings regarding the refusal to condemn the attacks. Although I must add that after hearing from an older Satmar chasid exactly why the parents felt so betrayed, hurt and helpless to stop it in any other way, I sort of got an understanding of why the leadership refused to come out against them.

Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Satmar Lady on May 25, 2014, 02:43:29 AM
Excuse me? You sort of got an understanding of what? Why leadership couldn't condemn brutal violence? No, I'm sorry. That doesn't fly. And what is this "helpless to stop it in any other way" garbage?

I'm really disappointed. I always convinced myself that the average Satmar man or woman was just as horrified by these thugs.  :(
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: zh cohen on May 25, 2014, 02:56:14 AM
First of all, you can be sure I'm just as horrified and so was everyone I spoke to. The only thing I'm not as upset as you seem to be, is why the leadership refused to condemn the actions - and again, I didn't say I'm not upset, just not as upset - and this, only after hearing the other side of the story.
I was careful to write "why the parents felt ... helpless to stop it in any other way." Not saying that there wasn't any other way. But it does happen that people get frustrated after getting nowhere from just talking, and they mistakenly think the only other way is to get really aggressive.

How many of these people that you spoke to were part of the hundreds of people who surrounded the lubavitchers on talucha, and screamed "shect him with a brochah" referring to a person that they (mistakenly) identified as a journalist that wrote things they didn't like in the Algemeiner?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 05:31:27 AM
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Moshe123 on May 25, 2014, 06:50:59 AM
An interesting discussion with different perspectives here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=163


The first page was a lot to read...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: henche on May 25, 2014, 08:45:05 AM
AKA learning some Tanya or other chassidus.

Nobody is trying to make anyone "become lubavitch" but there's no sin in learning some da"ch.

Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2014, 09:30:21 AM
Yes.  And add to that the lunacy of hiring a lubavicher chossid to teach your kids chassidus and then being surprised that he isn't teaching the satmar derech. 
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: TimT on May 25, 2014, 09:33:07 AM
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.
I never understood why people are so scared of learning tanya.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 25, 2014, 09:38:53 AM
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
FWIU that is only because they were pretty much thrown out of Satmar...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2014, 09:40:55 AM
Put your thinking in a side, but that's actually what happened. They became chabad, and they still are.
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 09:47:11 AM
I'm not arguing that such a thing didn't happen, but that's not the point of learning tanya.  The point is hafatzas chassidus habesh"t, not to steal away children from their parents ideology.

Either way this stuff happened well before my time and I don't have anything worthwhile to add.  But next time  R' Aaron Dovid Gancz comes to visit his son here I'll have to ask him for his perspective of the story.  Wickedly smart man, so thanks for not shechting him for "converting" ;)
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night, I knew that my Magid Shier's intention wan not to make us Chabad.

Was just pointing out what Satmar's concern is.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 09:50:50 AM
In the interest of intellectual honesty I will comment. (sorry).
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding about basic tenants of the disagreement. I am not taking any sides, just explaining the way I understand things.

The principle opposition to chassidus and chabbad is not about some superficial name "Chabbadsker" or style of dress.
The issue is and always was, the teachings of chabbad and their form of chassidus teachings. What is chassidus for chabbad is not necessarily chassidus for satmar. Misnagdim aside, even most chassidusim do not teach chassidus in its most extreme form like chabbad. They either never held of it, or they believe that in this generation the extreme form of chassidus as taught and emphisised by chabbadskers can potentially lead some astray. (Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

An average non chabbad chossid today, does not know of, or subscribe to most of the things that missnagdim originally were opposed to. For them indeed "nistachach toras habesht".
Imposing teachings of chassidus that are not inline with the mesora of satmar or others is and was the issue.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2014, 10:00:27 AM
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night, I knew that my Magid Shier's intention wan not to make us Chabad.
Well there ya go...

Frankly it's like saying chabad is trying to convert non-jews to judaism because of the mivtza sheva mitzvos bnei noach.  I'm sure it might happen to a couple folks, but to say that that's the intention is just untrue.

In the interest of intellectual honesty I will comment. (sorry).
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding about basic tenants of the disagreement. I am not taking any sides, just explaining the way I understand things.

The principle opposition to chassidus and chabbad is not about some superficial name "Chabbadsker" or style of dress.
The issue is and always was, the teachings of chabbad and their form of chassidus teachings. What is chassidus for chabbad is not necessarily chassidus for satmar. Misnagdim aside, even most chassidusim do not teach chassidus in its most extreme form like chabbad. They either never held of it, or they believe that in this generation the extreme form of chassidus as taught and emphisised by chabbadskers can potentially lead some astray. (Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

An average non chabbad chossid today, does not know of, or subscribe to most of the things that missnagdim originally were opposed to. For them indeed "nistachach toras habesht".
Imposing teachings of chassidus that are not inline with the mesora of satmar or others is and was the issue.
Extreme? Spoken like someone who hasn't opened a Tanya is his life. 

Elokists? You make me laugh.  Please show me a non-tzfati like that.  Doesn't exist.  I brought my own bottled water when I went to Tzfas :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 10:05:54 AM
"Extreme" was not meant in a negative connotation.
Re elokist, agree! I wasnt implying anything on normal chabbadsker at all.  Just pointing out that the opposition to chassidus eons ago had to do with this issue.

Its obviously helpless to have a normal convo related to opposition to chabbad...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 25, 2014, 10:12:51 AM
(Evedently there is actually a very small minority of chabbadskers who did become elokists/meshichists etc. So the opposition is not unfounded...) 

The Elokists/Meshichists are never the ones known for being big Maskilim in Chassiduss...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 10:18:07 AM
The Elokists/Meshichists are never the ones known for being big Maskilim in Chassiduss...
Fine.

The point was that the opposition by satmar was to the study of chabads version chassidus. Not to making them chabad.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: henche on May 25, 2014, 10:31:57 AM
I don't think learning tanya will "make you chabad" any more than learning mussar will make you a litvak.

You underestimate me.  You give me 20 minutes with an ohr yisroel and I will make you so litvish you'll stand in manhattan and tell people to NOT put on teffilin.

ETA: I'll have you walking 15 miles to shuls on simchas torah and then sitting in the corner learning during hakafos.

Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 10:44:53 AM
You underestimate me.  You give me 20 minutes with an ohr yisroel and I will make you so litvish you'll stand in manhattan and tell people to NOT put on teffilin.
5 min with an ohr yisroel and you won't be in manhattan period.  :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Centro on May 25, 2014, 10:59:13 AM
5 min with an ohr yisroel and you won't be in manhattan period.  :P
Like!
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: doodle on May 25, 2014, 01:23:32 PM
5 min with an ohr yisroel and you won't be in manhattan period.  :P
  BUT ON THE INTERNET ? :P :P :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:25:11 PM


And remind me if Rav Roth wasn't kicked out of his Rabbanus and came to Belz to apologize.
+1
He was kicked out of Satmar for a reason. And that's because his opinions didn't reflect what the Satmar leadership wanted him to believe in.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:36:53 PM
Correct. I had a shier Tanye as a Bochur every night,
As did I (See, all Satmars are learning Tanya).

And there's a reason why ilherman and meshugener are not (yet) chabad, while the talmidim of Rav Vecchter became Chabad.

That's what led to that horrible and brutal event (which I'm in no way justifying).

That's all behind it.

Rav Vechter did something not nice;
Satmar bachurim and parents of Rav Vechter's talimidim did something gruesome.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 02:38:21 PM
As did I (See, all Satmars are learning Tanya).

And there's a reason why ilherman and meshugener are not (yet) chabad, while the talmidim of Rav Vecchter became Chabad.

That's what led to that horrible and brutal event (which I'm in no way justifying).

That's all behind it.

Rav Vechter did something not nice;
Satmar bachurim and parents of Rav Vechter's talimidim did something gruesome.
Did we learn in the same Yeshivah?  ;)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:39:41 PM
Did we learn in the same Yeshivah?  ;)
No, I learned it privately with my mashgiach.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 02:40:41 PM
No, I learned it privately with my mashgiach.
Yeah, so did I. It was in Monsey.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:41:21 PM
Yeah, so did I.
Oh vey, who are you?

ETA: no, not Monsey.  ;D
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
Tanya can be learnt many ways.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:43:57 PM
Tanya can be learnt many ways.
Exactly my point.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Dan on May 25, 2014, 02:44:57 PM
Listen, I've had really boring Tanya teachers and I've had ones that absolutely blew my mind away.

Again, I'm not familiar with the story at all, but its not possible that that was part of the difference?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: meshugener on May 25, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
Listen, I've had really boring Tanya teachers and I've had ones that absolutely blew my mind away.

Again, I'm not familiar with the story at all, but its not possible that that was part of the difference?
If he had success to turn over bachurim to Chabad, chances are his intentions were not %100 pure.
I'm not that familiar with the story as well, my grandmother still carried my mother at that time (j/k), but don't try to convince yourself he was just an innocent amazing rosh yeshivah.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 03:26:28 PM
Listen, I've had really boring Tanya teachers and I've had ones that absolutely blew my mind away.

Again, I'm not familiar with the story at all, but its not possible that that was part of the difference?
Besides for the quality of the delivery, there most probably are differences in the application and understanding of the text and the message between the various mesoras.
I have browsed the sefer tanya myself, it's anything but a simple straight forward sefer...
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 25, 2014, 03:36:34 PM
Besides for the quality of the delivery, there most probably are differences in the application and understanding of the text and the message between the various mesoras.
I have browsed the sefer tanya myself, it's anything but a simple straight forward sefer...
Sir, for best results, don't browse the Tanya your self.  :)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2014, 03:37:48 PM
Sir, for best results, don't browse the Tanya your self.  :)
Not looking for results!  :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Ches on May 25, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
Everybody here is quoting a phrase "nishtakech torsas habal Shem", satmer ruv never said that, he said "nishtakech 'derech' habal shem" and there is a huge difference in definition between those 2.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Drago on May 26, 2014, 09:53:49 AM
What was upsetting was that leadership didn't condemn it and even admitted that they were afraid and had no control over the thugs.
I always find it ironic that specifically the communities where the gedolim have the most sway, are also the communities in which the leadership is 'afraid' to talk about certain issues if it means confronting loud idiots.

If they can't mobilize their flock to protest and stand up against their members who are commiting chillul Hashem, then they either lack the authority ppl claim they have, or don't care enough about the topic matter at hand.

This is not intended to be a comment about the 80s Satmer/Chabad issues, as the only info I know about them is what I've read on Wikipedia and in some other summaries.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: kollel yingerman on May 28, 2014, 09:43:43 AM
Did we learn in the same Yeshivah?  ;)

just found out, I learned with a messhuginer in my kollel on s. 9 st.
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 28, 2014, 09:45:41 AM
just found out, I learned with a messhuginer in my kollel on s. 9 st.
And?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: kollel yingerman on May 28, 2014, 09:48:23 AM
if i would've known ..................
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 28, 2014, 10:00:53 AM
if i would've known ..................
So you know meshugener?

What exactly do you wanna say?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: kollel yingerman on May 28, 2014, 10:07:11 AM
So you know meshugener?

What exactly do you wanna say?
yes

that 1+1=
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: lubaby on May 28, 2014, 10:08:25 AM
1+1=
COOKIES!!
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Joe4007 on May 28, 2014, 10:15:14 AM
that 1+1=
Chala Dekel :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 28, 2014, 10:15:28 AM
yes

that 1+1=
You were talking about  messhuginer and we have meshugener on here, was making sure that you talk about the same person  ;)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: kollel yingerman on May 28, 2014, 10:20:46 AM
You were talking about  messhuginer and we have meshugener on here, was making sure that you talk about the same person  ;)
i was trying to edit my post after i clicked post didn't work i guess because i'm new here  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: ilherman on May 28, 2014, 10:35:56 AM
i was trying to edit my post after i clicked post didn't work i guess because i'm new here  ;) ;)
BTW, are you still there?
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: Achas Veachas on May 28, 2014, 10:39:20 AM
yes

that 1+1=
That's my line! >:( :P
Title: Re: Chabad Lag B'Omer Parade Ban
Post by: kollel yingerman on May 28, 2014, 12:54:33 PM
BTW, are you still there?
still registered  :D