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DansDeals Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:17:41 PM

Title: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:17:41 PM
Meet KFI (Kosher Food Information for the English Speaking Community in Israel)
9 Shevat 5775
January 29, 2015

KFI: Who We Are:
KFI is a not-for-profit organization founded by a group of English-speaking Rabbanim concerned about the lack of uniform standards amongst the kashrus organizations in Yerushalayim. They seek to establish a minimum Mehadrin standard, as well as spread greater awareness of kashrus (and potential kashrus issues).

The Rabbanim of KFI have found widespread deficiencies, even in mehadrin eateries, in areas such as bishul akum, the absence of adequate supervision, checking of bugs, as well as instances where meat, chicken, and other sensitive items were left unsealed. Therefore, the Rabbanim have joined together to create a much needed system of independent verification of kashrus standards.

What We Do:
- We have established a minimum, reliable standard of kashrus supervision for mehadrin eateries, which meets or exceeds American standards. Any establishment verified by KFI will meet at least this standard. Details of the standards established by KFI will be made available to the public.

- We work together with eateries to raise their standards to minimum mehadrin level. – We maintain regular on-site audits to verify that these standards continue to be upheld.

- If the eatery maintains standards above those that KFI requires, KFI verifies that the eatery’s claimed standards are adhered to.

What We Do NOT Do:
- We do NOT set standards for raw materials or endorse the different hashgachos found on them. Rather, KFI publicizes an eatery’s list of hashgachos, and verifies that it complies with its published list.

KFI IS NOT A HASHGACHA!

We do not recommend any eatery. Rather, we seek to provide the public with the information that will allow the consumer to ask his Rav for an accurate and considered ruling.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:18:03 PM
KFI Kashrus System Guidelines
13 Shevat 5775

February 2, 2015

This posting contains the standards set forth by KFI for the restaurants that wish to work with the volunteer kashrus audit organization as detailed by the KFI rabbonim.


Our Kashrus system guidelines:

1.  Storage units for sensitive ingredients (e.g. fridges/freezers which contain fish and/or meat) must be locked and unlocked by Mashgiach only, and only he may have the keys. Arrangements will be made for emergencies.

2.  All frozen meats and fish that are being removed from their original packaging must be labeled, dated, sealed, and signed by Mashgiach.

3.  All incoming materials must be reviewed by the Mashgiach before storing them in the warehouse or using them in the kitchen. All receipts must be saved for review by our auditor.

4.  The eatery must submit separate lists of Hechsherim used for produce, meat, and standard ingredients. The eatery agrees not to purchase any items from any Hashgacha not on the respective lists.

5.  For bishul Yisrael, it is up to the eatery to specify its standard as either Rama or Bais Yosef. If Rama, a Shomer Shabbos must turn on the ovens and all fires, and they may not be turned off. If Bais Yosef, a Jew (even non Shomer Shabbos must put the food in the oven or on the fire, which were turned on as by a Shomer Shabbos. The Mashgiach must be able to verify compliance with these standards.

6.  Bug checking and sifting must be done by the Mashgiach. (For Gush-Katif-style lettuce, he only has to separate the leaves and put them into the soapy water.)

7.  The eatery may choose a standard for tevilas keilim, which will then be verified by KFI.

8.  The Mashgiach is responsible for overseeing the taking of challah, either by himself or another Shomer Shabbos.

9.  All alcoholic beverages must comply with a recognized comprehensive Kosher list and the list must be posted prominently by the bar.

10.  Liver must be kashered in accordance with Halacha. That includes using separate Keilim, and broiling it over an open element with the Mashgiach present throughout. It may not be defrosted in a container without drainage. It may not be re-cooked if kashered more than 72 hours after the shechitah.

11.  The Mashgiach or ne’eman kashrut must be in attendance any time there is cooking, serving, or vegetable washing taking place, and whenever sensitive ingredients are not secured. He should be stationed in the kitchen, except for brief bathroom breaks and when he is called to pour wine. Whenever he is on a longer break, all sensitive ingredients must be secured, and no cooking, serving or vegetable washing may take place.

12.  The Mashgiach and Ne’eman Kashrut must both be Shomer Shabbos, daven regularly, and lead lives typical of Ne’emanim. They must provide proof of their status. They must also have basic Kashrus knowledge.

13.  The eatery staff must be educated about all relevant protocols.

14.  Meat and fish must have separate fryers and grills. (Anything pareve that is fried on meat fryers acquires the status of meat, and anything fried in fish fryers acquires the status of fish.)

15.  A Shomer Shabbos must open and pour all wine. No returns are permitted.

16.  Full entry to KFI representatives and Rabbanim must be granted at any time to any place.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:18:38 PM
KFI Report on Sheyan Restaurant
15 Shevat 5775
February 4, 2015

 

Sheyan
8 Ramban Street
Jerusalem, Israel
02-566-1995

Sheyan has raised its Kashrus standards to conform with American standards.
Hashgacha is under Agudas Yisroel (they take the responsibility for the Kashrus, not us.)
Bishul Yisroel for Ashkenazim: a Shomer Shabbos will put on all the fires daily. For the duration of the day, they are relying on approved pilots that are under the pots and contribute to the cooking. For Sefardim, all cooking will be done by a Yehudi, (may be not Shomer Shabbos).

Hashgachos used in products:
Meats – Shearis Yisroel, Rav Rubin, Rav Landau (Bnei Brak) and Agudas Yisroel
Fish – Rav Revach
Produce – Agudas Yisroel and Eidah Chareidis. In regards to Shmitah they use Yival Nachri, Chol, Shishis, Matza Menutak and Aravah Tzefonis.
Standard Ingredients – Eidah Chareidis, Agudas Yisroel, Rav Rubin, Rav Landau, Chasam Sofer Bnei Brak, Chasam Sofer Petach Tikva, Chaf K, הרב נורבורטר,
הרב פרנקפוטר , Belz.

KFI takes no position regarding the reliability of any Hashgacha or product. Consumers are urged to ask their Rabbanim for guidance.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:19:02 PM
KFI Report on Keyara Restaurant
15 Shevat 5775
February 4, 2015

Keyara

8 Ramban Street
Jerusalem, Israel
02-566-3271

Keyara has raised its Kashrus standards to conform with American standards.
Hashgacha is under Agudas Yisroel (they take the responsibility for the Kashrus, not us.)
Bishul Yisroel for Ashkenazim: a Shomer Shabbos will light all the fires daily. For Sefardim, all cooking will be done by a Yehudi, (may be not Shomer Shabbos).
Kashering liver according to accepted protocol has been implemented.

Hashgachos used in products:
Meats – Shearis Yisroel, Rav Rubin, Rav Landau (Bnei Brak), Agudas Yisroel and (sometimes Rabbanut Mehadrin Yerushalayim on the lamb chops)
Fish – Rav Revach
Produce – Agudas Yisroel and Eidah Chareidis. In regards to Shmitah they use Yival Nachri, Chol, Shishis, Matza Menutak and Aravah Tzefonis.
Standard Ingredients – Eidah Chareidis, Agudas Yisroel, Rav Rubin, Rav Landau, Chasam Sofer Bnei Brak, Chasam Sofer Petach Tikva, הרב נורבורטר, הרב פרנקפוטר, Belz.

KFI takes no position regarding the reliability of any Hashgacha or product. Consumers are urged to ask their Rabbanim for guidance.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 04, 2015, 04:19:33 PM
Has anyone heard of Rav Revach, הרב נורבורטר, הרב פרנקפוטר?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 04, 2015, 04:29:01 PM
Has anyone heard of Rav Revach, הרב נורבורטר, הרב פרנקפוטר?
R Revach is probably the one who started the whole fish worm thing. NIRBATOR is probably the American Meal Mart.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 04, 2015, 04:34:43 PM
I don't understand.  Are they undermining the hasgachas and then saying to rely on them?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 04, 2015, 04:44:44 PM
I don't understand.  Are they undermining the hasgachas and then saying to rely on them?
just give it time. Anything else like this has always ended up going from doing good to doing well.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 04, 2015, 04:46:03 PM
just give it time. Anything else like this has always ended up going from doing good to doing well.
I can't say I understand
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 04, 2015, 04:59:02 PM
sounds like another kosher tax to me
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 04, 2015, 05:22:04 PM
I'ts simple. they are trying to standardize kasrus in Israel for the american oilem that don't know whats what here.
Places like Keyara and Sheyan are frequented by plenty of american beni torah who really have no clue what the're eating except that when their sister in laws father came to Israel 3 years ago he ate there.

How many people know what meats or fish or vegetables Aguda hechsher relays on? What kind of Bishul Yisroel they relay on? Who pours the wine?

When you have a standard set by the Rabanim and Poskim that the american bnei torah in eretz yisroel relay on, you know that you can eat there without a problem.

One of the major people behind KFI is Rabbi Shmuli Weiner from ZNT shull in Ramat Eshkol. He personally ate at Sheyan with Rav Chaim Tzvi Senter after they upgraded their kashrus.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 04, 2015, 05:29:15 PM
I'ts simple. they are trying to standardize kasrus in Israel for the american oilem that don't know whats what here.
Places like Keyara and Sheyan are frequented by plenty of american beni torah who really have no clue what the're eating except that when their sister in laws father came to Israel 3 years ago he ate there.

How many people know what meats or fish or vegetables Aguda hechsher relays on? What kind of Bishul Yisroel they relay on? Who pours the wine?

When you have a standard set by the Rabanim and Poskim that the american bnei torah in eretz yisroel relay on, you know that you can eat there without a problem.

One of the major people behind KFI is Rabbi Shmuli Weiner from ZNT shull in Ramat Eshkol. He personally ate at Sheyan with Rav Chaim Tzvi Senter after they upgraded their kashrus.
So just tell us which hechserim are good, saying that specific stores under the same hechser have different kosher standards is undermining the very basis of hechserim here
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 04, 2015, 06:41:58 PM
saying  specific stores under the same hechser have different kosher standards
Welcome to Israel!
Would you prefer to be told you can't eat somewhere because the Hecsher they have is hit and miss or have someone check out that specific restaurant and tell you that it's okey?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: MosheD on February 04, 2015, 09:05:50 PM
So just tell us which hechserim are good, saying that specific stores under the same hechser have different kosher standards is undermining the very basis of hechserim here
I hear both ways. It is definitely true there is no uniform standard even within a hashgacha. Many places with a lower level hashgacha when researched are mehadrin and unfortunately the reverse is true as well.

But sof sof KFI is basically another hechsher
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SrulyP on February 04, 2015, 09:23:17 PM
I'ts simple. they are trying to standardize kasrus in Israel for the american oilem that don't know whats what here.
Places like Keyara and Sheyan are frequented by plenty of american beni torah who really have no clue what the're eating except that when their sister in laws father came to Israel 3 years ago he ate there.

How many people know what meats or fish or vegetables Aguda hechsher relays on? What kind of Bishul Yisroel they relay on? Who pours the wine?

When you have a standard set by the Rabanim and Poskim that the american bnei torah in eretz yisroel relay on, you know that you can eat there without a problem.

One of the major people behind KFI is Rabbi Shmuli Weiner from ZNT shull in Ramat Eshkol. He personally ate at Sheyan with Rav Chaim Tzvi Senter after they upgraded their kashrus.

This piques my curiosity, as a follower of both of them, I would be tremendously interested in what they have to say about this new "hashgacha." Luckily, I will be seeing him this friday (he is coming to america tomorrow) and look forward to asking him about this and will post his words when I hear them. I also just spoke to Rabbi Wiener today... wish I would have saw this article before...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 02:52:17 AM


Welcome to Israel!
Would you prefer to be told you can't eat somewhere because the Hecsher they have is hit and miss or have someone check out that specific restaurant and tell you that it's okey?





sof sof KFI is basically another hechsher
Precisely.  It irks me that they claim not to be
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2015, 02:56:57 AM
Sheyan hasn't changed their kashrus in years. Sounds more like they upgraded themselves by paying a protection charge to a mafia.

I don't know the details of this story but I get suspicious when someone won't identify himself by his name but only by the title Rabbi. Being a respectable figure is like being a lady - if you have to tell people you're a lady you're probably not.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2015, 02:58:42 AM
But sof sof KFI is basically another hechsher
The issue with Eisav was that he tries to falsely portray himself as a tzaddik.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 02:59:24 AM




I don't know the details of this story
I can tell
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: PlatinumGuy on February 05, 2015, 03:01:58 AM
I can tell
Considering I said it myself all it takes is knowing how to read
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 03:13:40 AM
Sheyan hasn't changed their kashrus in years. Sounds more like they upgraded themselves by paying a protection charge to a mafia.

I don't know the details of this story but I get suspicious when someone won't identify himself by his name but only by the title Rabbi. Being a respectable figure is like being a lady - if you have to tell people you're a lady you're probably not.
Don't go ahead with "matter of fact" reporting on sheyans kashrus and then go on to state you don't know the story

Leave that for FM
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 05, 2015, 07:30:25 AM
sounds like another kosher tax to me
Where does it say that resturants have to pay for this service?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 07:38:37 AM
Where does it say that resturants have to pay for this service?
i was under the impression they dont
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 05, 2015, 07:43:25 AM
i was under the impression they dont
Me too
sounds like another kosher tax to me
What's he referring to?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 07:48:43 AM
What's he referring to?
sounds like a voice from he peanut gallery
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: MosheD on February 05, 2015, 07:48:58 AM
i was under the impression they dont




But sof sof KFI is basically another free hechsher

Ftfm
I guess that's not so bad - it's a governing board for all other hechsheirim
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 05, 2015, 07:54:47 AM
Sheyan hasn't changed their kashrus in years. Sounds more like they upgraded themselves by paying a protection charge to a mafia.

I don't know the details of this story but I get suspicious when someone won't identify himself by his name but only by the title Rabbi. Being a respectable figure is like being a lady - if you have to tell people you're a lady you're probably not.
From what I understand, Sheyan was using triangle k ingredients (many of the asian ingredients in israel are triangle k) and i heard that Keyara might have been using regular rabbanut lamb chops. KFI wouldnt approve of them until they kashered their kitchen.

As far as not identifying themselves, this is what R' Kuber had to say.

Mordechai Kuber
January 29, 2015 - 14:33 | Permalink
You are all correct that it is better if the Rabbanim would publicize their names. But one must understand that the culture here is not exactly American live-and-let-live. It is not impossible for a restaurateur who is losing business because he refuses to raise his standards to express his dissatisfaction in a hostile way. So we must respect the Rabbanim for taking the time and expending the effort to address a problem that is significant, even if they do not feel like dying a martyr’s death.
I know the Rabbanim involved, and they are all serious talmidei chachamim, with modest kashrus experience between them. Although I am not officially a member of KFI, they consult me on all kashrus matters. I believe that they have managed to establish high standards without getting involved in the politics of hashgachos, for which they are to be commended. They will be publishing their standards very soon, and the names of the first two restaurants who have met those standards, and the details of the kashrus there.
I realize that it would be great if they could already be at the finish line. But this is a work in progress, and they have moved forward patiently and with great attention to detail.
In the words of a great man long departed, “You have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.” Slowly and patiently this job will get done, and our community will finally have the opportunity to confidently eat out without guesswork and blissful ignorance. It is long in coming, and just a little more patience and some thoughtful understanding will get us to the finish line.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 05, 2015, 09:17:29 AM
From what I understand, Sheyan was using triangle k ingredients (many of the asian ingredients in israel are triangle k) and i heard that Keyara might have been using regular rabbanut lamb chops. KFI wouldnt approve of them until they kashered their kitchen.

As far as not identifying themselves, this is what R' Kuber had to say.

Mordechai Kuber
January 29, 2015 - 14:33 | Permalink
You are all correct that it is better if the Rabbanim would publicize their names. But one must understand that the culture here is not exactly American live-and-let-live. It is not impossible for a restaurateur who is losing business because he refuses to raise his standards to express his dissatisfaction in a hostile way. So we must respect the Rabbanim for taking the time and expending the effort to address a problem that is significant, even if they do not feel like dying a martyr’s death.
I know the Rabbanim involved, and they are all serious talmidei chachamim, with modest kashrus experience between them. Although I am not officially a member of KFI, they consult me on all kashrus matters. I believe that they have managed to establish high standards without getting involved in the politics of hashgachos, for which they are to be commended. They will be publishing their standards very soon, and the names of the first two restaurants who have met those standards, and the details of the kashrus there.
I realize that it would be great if they could already be at the finish line. But this is a work in progress, and they have moved forward patiently and with great attention to detail.
In the words of a great man long departed, “You have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.” Slowly and patiently this job will get done, and our community will finally have the opportunity to confidently eat out without guesswork and blissful ignorance. It is long in coming, and just a little more patience and some thoughtful understanding will get us to the finish line.
+1
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
What's he referring to?

sounds like a voice from he peanut gallery

My comment represents my general mistrust of the kasharus industry, and the undue financial burden that it puts on the jewish public
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 09:20:42 AM
My comment represents my general mistrust of the kasharus industry, and the undue financial burden that it puts on the jewish public
And who do you think is to blame?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 05, 2015, 09:23:55 AM
My comment represents my general mistrust of the kasharus industry, and the undue financial burden that it puts on the jewish public
right, because a mashgiach sitting in a restauarant doesnt charge for his time
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 05, 2015, 09:24:24 AM
My comment represents my general mistrust of the kasharus industry, and the undue financial burden that it puts on the jewish public
I think that if you would go through real numbers you would find that it doesn't place the burden you think and that what it does isn't as undue as you think
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 05, 2015, 09:24:51 AM
i was under the impression they dont yet
FTFY
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 09:25:53 AM
FTFY
Quite possibly
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Menachem613 on February 05, 2015, 09:26:14 AM

sounds like another kosher tax to me

Possibly. But they are catering to the wants of the people. Can't blame them.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 05, 2015, 09:26:55 AM
Sheyan hasn't changed their kashrus in years. Sounds more like they upgraded themselves by paying a protection charge to a mafia.

I don't know the details of this story but I get suspicious when someone won't identify himself by his name but only by the title Rabbi.
They haven't changed the Hashgacha but they have changed some of the following: The Hachshrim they allow into the store, the way the Mashgiach and staff operate, the way they Kasher liver, the way certain products are marked and stored, the way vegetables are washed and checked, the amount of time there is a Mashgiach in the kitchen, etc'

See the difference?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 09:29:25 AM
They haven't changed the Hashgacha but they have changed some of the following: The Hachshrim they allow into the store, the way the Mashgiach and staff operate, the way they Kasher liver, the way certain products are marked and stored, the way vegetables are washed and checked, the amount of time there is a Mashgiach in the kitchen, etc'

See the difference?
How is that not changing it?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 05, 2015, 09:36:34 AM
How is that not changing it?
hashgacha as in supervising agency
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 09:49:19 AM
And who do you think is to blame?
I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.

as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership


Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 09:51:30 AM
I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.

as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership
No comment on your statement but based on what you wrote I'm confident I can pick you out of a lineup any day
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 09:54:05 AM
based on what you wrote I'm confident I can pick you out of a lineup any day

I dont know that that means. Am i going to be arrested for challenging the supremacy of the rabbinate?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 05, 2015, 09:54:51 AM
hashgacha as in supervising agency
+1 the Kasrus logo
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 09:55:12 AM
I dont know that that means. Am i going to be arrested for challenging the supremacy of the rabbinate?
It means that I can see what kind of individual you are and it's not worth arguing with your genre
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Yitz on February 05, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
It means that I can see what kind of individual you are and it's not worth arguing with your genre
Well said
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 05, 2015, 09:58:04 AM
I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.

as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership
-1000
I know of many Rabanin who are very mikel within the confines of Halacha.
Not every Rav that wont give you a "kula" for everything you want to do is a machmir.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: MosheD on February 05, 2015, 10:08:10 AM


From what I understand, Sheyan was using triangle k ingredients (many of the asian ingredients in israel are triangle k) and i heard that Keyara might have been using regular rabbanut lamb chops. KFI wouldnt approve of them until they kashered their kitchen.

As far as not identifying themselves, this is what R' Kuber had to say.

Mordechai Kuber
January 29, 2015 - 14:33 | Permalink
You are all correct that it is better if the Rabbanim would publicize their names. But one must understand that the culture here is not exactly American live-and-let-live. It is not impossible for a restaurateur who is losing business because he refuses to raise his standards to express his dissatisfaction in a hostile way. So we must respect the Rabbanim for taking the time and expending the effort to address a problem that is significant, even if they do not feel like dying a martyr’s death.
I know the Rabbanim involved, and they are all serious talmidei chachamim, with modest kashrus experience between them.

I don't think it's a secret who they are. I'm sure ppl could easily find out, but still respect the decision.
I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.

as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership
Just wow.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 05, 2015, 10:17:11 AM
Looks like we need some popcorn. What does KFI recommend?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Menachem613 on February 05, 2015, 10:19:38 AM

I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.

as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership

I have an e-mail from someone in a famous US Kashrus agency corroborating *one* of your points. The e-mail was from father to son and forwarded to me by son.  It needs some heavy redacting but I will send via PM when I'm done.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 10:28:02 AM
I have an e-mail from someone in a famous US Kashrus agency corroborating *one* of your points. The e-mail was from father to son and forwarded to me by son.  It needs some heavy redacting but I will send via PM when I'm done.

thanks
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 05, 2015, 11:04:20 AM
My comment represents my general mistrust of the kasharus industry, and the undue financial burden that it puts on the jewish public
Sounds like a trying to sound smart cover up

You stated facts without doing research

Probably because of your "general mistrust of the kasharus industry"
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 11:12:23 AM
Sounds like a trying to sound smart cover up

You stated facts without doing research

Probably because of your "general mistrust of the kasharus industry"

actually I stated my opinion
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 05, 2015, 11:19:36 AM
sounds like another kosher tax to me
How are you expressing your opinion in the above comment?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on February 05, 2015, 11:30:30 AM
How are you expressing your opinion in the above comment?

I was being facetious
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 05, 2015, 11:36:59 AM
I was being facetious
Wow! if only I can use that for every time I say something stupid!

Come on!!!!!!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 05, 2015, 11:44:03 AM
he clearly has an ax to grind with kashrus organizations (keeping kosher?) we should move on
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 05, 2015, 12:11:39 PM
he clearly has an ax to grind with kashrus organizations (keeping kosher?) we should move on
Correct
It means that I can see what kind of individual you are and it's not worth arguing with your genre
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 01:46:31 PM
I'ts simple. they are trying to standardize kasrus in Israel for the american oilem that don't know whats what here.
Places like Keyara and Sheyan are frequented by plenty of american beni torah who really have no clue what the're eating except that when their sister in laws father came to Israel 3 years ago he ate there.

How many people know what meats or fish or vegetables Aguda hechsher relays on? What kind of Bishul Yisroel they relay on? Who pours the wine?

When you have a standard set by the Rabanim and Poskim that the american bnei torah in eretz yisroel relay on, you know that you can eat there without a problem.

One of the major people behind KFI is Rabbi Shmuli Weiner from ZNT shull in Ramat Eshkol. He personally ate at Sheyan with Rav Chaim Tzvi Senter after they upgraded their kashrus.
+1000
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 01:47:07 PM
From what I understand, Sheyan was using triangle k ingredients (many of the asian ingredients in israel are triangle k) and i heard that Keyara might have been using regular rabbanut lamb chops. KFI wouldnt approve of them until they kashered their kitchen.

As far as not identifying themselves, this is what R' Kuber had to say.

Mordechai Kuber
January 29, 2015 - 14:33 | Permalink
You are all correct that it is better if the Rabbanim would publicize their names. But one must understand that the culture here is not exactly American live-and-let-live. It is not impossible for a restaurateur who is losing business because he refuses to raise his standards to express his dissatisfaction in a hostile way. So we must respect the Rabbanim for taking the time and expending the effort to address a problem that is significant, even if they do not feel like dying a martyr’s death.
I know the Rabbanim involved, and they are all serious talmidei chachamim, with modest kashrus experience between them. Although I am not officially a member of KFI, they consult me on all kashrus matters. I believe that they have managed to establish high standards without getting involved in the politics of hashgachos, for which they are to be commended. They will be publishing their standards very soon, and the names of the first two restaurants who have met those standards, and the details of the kashrus there.
I realize that it would be great if they could already be at the finish line. But this is a work in progress, and they have moved forward patiently and with great attention to detail.
In the words of a great man long departed, “You have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.” Slowly and patiently this job will get done, and our community will finally have the opportunity to confidently eat out without guesswork and blissful ignorance. It is long in coming, and just a little more patience and some thoughtful understanding will get us to the finish line.
+1000
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 01:47:28 PM
I know this information first hand!!!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 09, 2015, 01:55:41 PM
Whoever thinks they're are not charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 09, 2015, 02:03:58 PM
FWIW The Star K tried doing a similar thing years ago. It fell through at last moment when they sent someone around and for some reason every Mashgiach was in the hospital that day. There is a serious issue with the lazy work ethic in Israel.
Rav Heineman ended up swallowing the losses
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 02:33:25 PM
Whoever thinks they're are not charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
They have someone sponsoring! no charging!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 02:34:47 PM
FWIW The Star K tried doing a similar thing years ago. It fell through at last moment when they sent someone around and for some reason every Mashgiach was in the hospital that day. There is a serious issue with the lazy work ethic in Israel.
Rav Heineman ended up swallowing the losses
I heard Rabbi Heineman was very troubled by the widespread Bishul Akum problems.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 09, 2015, 02:38:38 PM
Whoever thinks they're are not charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
Speculation or definitive knowledge?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 02:44:22 PM
Speculation or definitive knowledge?
Definitive knowledge that they do not, nor do they plan on charging! its solely to make the american consumer aware of the shortcomings in the israeli kashrus industry, which would therefore hopefully put a pressure on the eateries to offer a better product.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 09, 2015, 03:31:21 PM
Whoever thinks they're are not charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
Whoever thinks they are charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 09, 2015, 04:17:59 PM
Speculation or definitive knowledge?
Both
I heard Rabbi Heineman was very troubled by the widespread Bishul Akum problems.
That was part of the reason they made the Hechsher and fixed it. Stilll don't think they will be successful, but who knows...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 09, 2015, 04:19:11 PM
Definitive knowledge that they do not, nor do they plan on charging! its solely to make the american consumer aware of the shortcomings in the israeli kashrus industry, which would therefore hopefully put a pressure on the eateries to offer a better product.
Whoever thinks they are charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
הרבה רצו לעשות כן ולא עלתה בידם
Therefore:
Whoever thinks they're are not charging for this service is very naive... and wrong
at least in the future
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 09, 2015, 04:20:17 PM


Both



Definitive knowledge that they do not, nor do they plan on charging!

Machlokes
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on February 09, 2015, 04:54:40 PM
I know my answer wont satisfy you but the short answer is "the rabbis"
I think that many rabbis (even without realizing they are doing so) enrich and empower themselves and their colleagues by pushing stricter and stricter standards.  I think that the system is rigged that only 'rabbis' that push a chumradik agenda can come to any real power.  I think that this corruption is not only in kasharus but in gayrus, stznus and many other areas of everyday jewish life.



Which leniency do you, with your great scholarship in the relevant sections of Shulchan Oruch, believe should be allowed by the Rabbis?

Quote
as an example I dont believe there has been any major leniency in kasharus since Chalov stam, and from what I've heard r' Moshe's sons have distanced them selves from that ruling.

I think that there is no true jewish leadership

What, in your opinion, is the acceptable rate per year that True Jewish Leadership should issue major leniencies  in kashrus?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shalomh on February 09, 2015, 05:41:07 PM
Do they plan on sitting down with the management of the food establishments and then giving their approval or disapproval?
 Or is their position based on how they perceive the situation and what the owner claims or says is not important to them ?

Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 09, 2015, 06:02:38 PM
I believe the plan is to inspect the kitchens, and let people know of their findings. People can make their own decisions based upon that. But the point is for there to be an element of awareness.  And hopefully this will cause eateries to up their Kashrus standard. But KFI is not a hashgacha! Nor are they telling eateries what to do!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 09, 2015, 06:16:34 PM
Do they plan on sitting down with the management of the food establishments and then giving their approval or disapproval?
 Or is their position based on how they perceive the situation and what the owner claims or says is not important to them ?
They are very keen on working with the owners in order to raise the level of kasrus to an acceptable standard. This benefits the owners by having more people who are willing to eat there.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: satturn on February 11, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
if this does take off- we would see a more transparent kashrus situation. There is so many different opinions on what is good and what is not recommended that if a outside unbiased inspection came in and looked things over and reported it as is. This would be a great service. If i remains unbiased, and it does not charge. From what i would venture to say, most mehadrin restaurant owners are not using that standard due to their personal standards- but rather as a marketing tactic to gain more customers. With that in mind there should be no reason for them to object to raising their standards if it will be published to the english speaking crowds that they so much want to impress.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Let3 on February 11, 2015, 12:57:27 PM
Well, it seems that many restaurants ( mostly in Mamila area) said that they are not interested and that they don't think that the few hundred ppl who care will affect their business...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 11, 2015, 01:01:20 PM
Well, it seems that many restaurants ( mostly in Mamila area) said that they are not interested and that they don't think that the few hundred ppl who care will affect their business...
not interested in meeting minimal american standards? sad indeed...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 11, 2015, 01:03:49 PM
Well, it seems that many restaurants ( mostly in Mamila area) said that they are not interested and that they don't think that the few hundred ppl who care will affect their business...
I don't necessarily care for KFI but a store that doesn't agree to minimum standards that they officially have to keep anyways according to their hasgochos isn't saying did things about them.
Unless they just don't want to be bothered by every random kashrus startup
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 11, 2015, 03:52:29 PM
Well, it seems that many restaurants ( mostly in Mamila area) said that they are not interested and that they don't think that the few hundred ppl who care will affect their business...
Have you been to Mamilla on a Motzei Shabbos?

As a business owner I would cooperate
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 11, 2015, 03:57:05 PM
Have you been to Mamilla on a Motzei Shabbos?

As a business owner I would cooperate
Unless you really have something to hide. ..
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 11, 2015, 06:14:33 PM
or are following this thread...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 11, 2015, 06:54:33 PM
Unless they just don't want to be bothered by every random kashrus startup
That. Would you?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 11, 2015, 07:10:53 PM
That. Would you?
If it made a difference to my business, I would.
BTW the owner of Kiara and Shyan is the one that reached out to KFI after he saw a big dip in customers following a shiur by one of the KFI rabanim mentioning the kashrus problems there. 
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 11, 2015, 09:12:56 PM
If it made a difference to my business, I would.
BTW the owner of Kiara and Shyan is the one that reached out to KFI after he saw a big dip in customers following a shiur by one of the KFI rabanim mentioning the kashrus problems there.
Of course. Whether that happens to a random place without known issues remains to be seen. As such if I were a business owner who already pays a hechsher to ensure that my kashrus is up to par why would I want someone else poking around in my kitchen who can only cause problems. That is what happened with the first restaurants. They let someone poke around who started making problems by publicizing supposed issues. Now they have an extra headache. An owner who does not let them in does not mean he has something to hide. I would not want to let them in either because it would make running my kitchen difficult. Only with threats of telling everyone that I am giving something and other mafia tactics would force me to.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 12, 2015, 02:35:57 AM


They let someone poke around who started making problems by publicizing supposed issues.
When will it stop being"supposed" issues?  The owner agreed yet your still in denial?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 12, 2015, 03:33:18 AM
So basically when all is said and done an establishment having a hechsher in Israel really doesn't mean anything?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 12, 2015, 03:34:39 AM
So basically when all is said and done an establishment having a hechsher in Israel really doesn't mean anything?
Shortened version: incorrect
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 12, 2015, 07:03:47 AM
Of course. Whether that happens to a random place without known issues remains to be seen. As such if I were a business owner who already pays a hechsher to ensure that my kashrus is up to par why would I want someone else poking around in my kitchen who can only cause problems. That is what happened with the first restaurants. They let someone poke around who started making problems by publicizing supposed issues. Now they have an extra headache. An owner who does not let them in does not mean he has something to hide. I would not want to let them in either because it would make running my kitchen difficult. Only with threats of telling everyone that I am giving something and other mafia tactics would force me to.
Do you keep Kosher?

If yes why don't you take it seriously?

If a restaurant did not let the health inspector in to the kitchen would you also say he has nothing to hide and doesn't wasn't someone in his kitchen "who can only cause problems"

As an orthodox Jew I have never eaten in a Non-Kosher establishment. I pay more for my food from groceries to restaurants for one reason and one reason only, to make sure that that the kashrus that I strongly keep to are up to par.

You cannot understand the frustration finding out that a restaurant that I love and have been many times did not allow a Rov into their kitchens because it can only cause problems

Thats why I support KFI
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 12, 2015, 07:16:36 AM
So basically when all is said and done an establishment having a hechsher in Israel really doesn't mean anything?
Well obviously that's gonna depend on which hashgacha your referring to.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 08:56:18 AM
When will it stop being"supposed" issues?  The owner agreed yet your still in denial?

I never heard of the restaurant or the issues to admit or deny them.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 12, 2015, 09:02:31 AM
I never heard of the restaurant or the issues to admit or deny them.
so WTH are you spewing like you know?
That is what happened with the first restaurants. They let someone poke around who started making problems by publicizing supposed issues. Now they have an extra headache.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 09:06:09 AM
Do you keep Kosher?

If yes why don't you take it seriously?
I will ignore the inuendo and leave it that taking kashrus seriously does not need to mean creating a mafia but instead relying on good hechsherim. If the hechsher is good then the mafia is unneeded and if it is no good then it won't help.
If a restaurant did not let the health inspector in to the kitchen would you also say he has nothing to hide and doesn't wasn't someone in his kitchen "who can only cause problems"
VERY bad analogy. How about this case. Let's take an establishment which passed all health inspections perfectly and hired its own outside health consultant as well which also certifies the wholesomeness of the establishment. They are now approached by a group of health freaks who say let us check out your kitchen and poke in when we want to. We will then give you a list of things to fix and if you don't fix them we will publicize that your food causes cancer. If you don't let us in we will say that you must have something to hide.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
so WTH are you spewing like you know?
I am purely replying to what has been presented in this thread.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 12, 2015, 01:19:35 PM
I will ignore the inuendo and leave it that taking kashrus seriously does not need to mean creating a mafia but instead relying on good hechsherim. If the hechsher is good then the mafia is unneeded and if it is no good then it won't help.VERY bad analogy. How about this case. Let's take an establishment which passed all health inspections perfectly and hired its own outside health consultant as well which also certifies the wholesomeness of the establishment. They are now approached by a group of health freaks who say let us check out your kitchen and poke in when we want to. We will then give you a list of things to fix and if you don't fix them we will publicize that your food causes cancer. If you don't let us in we will say that you must have something to hide.
"Very bad analogy"
You are comparing a group that will spread that a certain restaurants food causes cancer and a group that tells their people to be carful and which restaurants they approve of
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 02:43:50 PM
"Very bad analogy"
You are comparing a group that will spread that a certain restaurants food causes cancer and a group that tells their people to be carful and which restaurants they approve of

WHich do you consider worse.

My point is that there is already a hechsher. THEY ARE INSPECTED. You are asking them to pile more inspections over that and end up with too many cooks spoiling the broth.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 12, 2015, 02:47:20 PM
Hechshers needing more hechshers?
And who is going to watch over KFI?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 12, 2015, 02:51:01 PM
Hechshers needing more hechshers?
And who is going to watch over KFI?
They claim not to be a hasgacha they are alerting you and you decide
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 12, 2015, 03:35:26 PM
Mr. Aygart: FWIU They are taking restaurants with lower hashgachos that are not reliable on their own and reporting on specific locations that the actual Mashgiach is reliable and letting you know what Hashgachos the ingredients are under.
P.S. Before I get flack, yes, there are many issues with "Aguda"
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 03:43:04 PM
Mr. Aygart: FWIU They are taking restaurants with lower hashgachos that are not reliable on their own and reporting on specific locations that the actual Mashgiach is reliable and letting you know what Hashgachos the ingredients are under.
P.S. Before I get flack, yes, there are many issues with "Aguda"
So if the ingredients were good when they were inspected you would eat by them even though they have a sub-par hechsher? That is what this is for?
Do you keep Kosher?

If yes why don't you take it seriously?
Also, that isn't the way this has been presented in this thread.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Let3 on February 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
Fwiu this whole thing came across mainly because us Americans don't seem to really know which hechsherim are great and "sub-par" as you called it.
Any many of us have been eating in certain places under certain hechsherim after "hearing from reliable sources" that it is ok.
When a rav was asked by Talmidim about going to sheyan/Keyara (where most ppl went until recently) , he decided to actually check it out before telling him it was ok... There was no intention at that point to make any "hechsher" out of it.
The problem was that they didnt let him in the kitchen and othe problems he found after speaking to te mashgiach. Again, He wasn't going in as new "hechsher" to find problems- he was going in as a guy trying to check out a place before eating there, asking te regular questions we all should be asking wherever we go!
That's how this whole KFI started- Fwiu (after speaking to the rav himself) .

He decided that even after we "heard" from OUR Rabanim which hechsherim are ok to eat- not always do they keep to their own written standards unfortunately... So the KFI is there to inform us that/if they are...

I hope I made some sense with what I wrote ...
It's getting real frustrating watching ppl that don't know anything about any of this comment on it...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 12, 2015, 04:56:13 PM
So if the ingredients were good when they were inspected you would eat by them even though they have a sub-par Hechsher?
If the Mahgiach was reliable? 100% I would eat at the WA, which has only a Rabanut, because I was told that the Masgiach is reliable and the ingredients are good.
(Normally I wouldn't touch Rabanut with a 10ft pole)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 05:10:34 PM
He decided that even after we "heard" from OUR Rabanim which hechsherim are ok to eat- not always do they keep to their own written standards unfortunately... So the KFI is there to inform us that/if they are...
Isn't a hechsher that doesn't keep to its standards by definition unreliable?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 05:11:26 PM
If the Mahgiach was reliable? 100% I would eat at the WA, which has only a Rabanut, because I was told that the Masgiach is reliable and the ingredients are good.
(Normally I wouldn't touch Rabanut with a 10ft pole)
I think you need to learn more about hechsherim and the food service industry.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on February 12, 2015, 08:45:06 PM
I think you need to learn more about hechsherim and the food service industry.
I think you need to learn more about yidishkeit in general, and halacha specifically.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 09:49:20 PM
I think you need to learn more about yidishkeit in general, and halacha specifically.
Since I am sure you are writing this based upon substance please don't keep the substantive part to yourself.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 12, 2015, 10:22:17 PM
If the Mahgiach was reliable? 100% I would eat at the WA, which has only a Rabanut, because I was told that the Masgiach is reliable and the ingredients are good.
(Normally I wouldn't touch Rabanut with a 10ft pole)
would you buy rabanut mehadrin meat/chicken?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 12, 2015, 11:44:02 PM
would you buy rabanut mehadrin meat/chicken?
I would imagine that would be included in ensuring that the ingredients are good.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on February 19, 2015, 04:00:59 AM
Stores do not pay KFI.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 19, 2015, 04:16:56 AM
Stores do not pay KFI.
+100
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on February 19, 2015, 05:08:33 AM
Stores do not pay KFI.
+1
I'm not sure why any store wouldnt want to  get a free service that brings in more business.
Unless they have something to hide...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 19, 2015, 05:13:42 AM


free service that brings in more business.
You have to convince them of that
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 19, 2015, 05:26:26 AM
Stores do not pay KFI.
thats what everyones been saying all along except for one person who shall remain nameless that called us either naive or wrong
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 19, 2015, 07:32:24 AM
You have to convince them of that
Actually they're starting with places that they have an "in" with. Like places where someone knows the manager.. Etc.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 19, 2015, 08:29:38 AM
I'm happy to see that this thing is really moving along

I went to Sheyan last night, looks like things are back to normal, full house
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Let3 on February 19, 2015, 09:02:51 AM
I'm happy to see that this thing is really moving along

I went to Sheyan last night, looks like things are back to normal, full house
+1
Was there last week- haven't seen it that full in a long time!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 19, 2015, 12:38:10 PM
I'm happy to see that this thing is really moving along

well not really, no updates in a while...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 19, 2015, 02:25:47 PM
They actually just went to check out lechem basar, and were very pleasantly surprised! Just have to research a few of the products that they use....
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 19, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
thats what everyones been saying all along except for one person who shall remain nameless that called us either naive or wrong
The owner of Sheyan Keyara originally had said he was paying for it but it seems like some big guns in America got behind it so the payment was not necessary...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: E-MAN on February 19, 2015, 03:07:37 PM
Is KFI looking into these eateries once to certify or are they also following up to make sure the adherence continues?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Let3 on February 19, 2015, 03:12:45 PM
Is KFI looking into these eateries once to certify or are they also following up to make sure the adherence continues?
They will follow up as well
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 19, 2015, 04:55:03 PM
Is KFI looking into these eateries once to certify or are they also following up to make sure the adherence continues?
They plan on sending someone down 1-3 times a week.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 19, 2015, 06:26:56 PM
They plan on sending someone down 1-3 times a week.
wow, that seems like a lot
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2015, 11:31:43 PM
+1
I'm not sure why any store wouldnt want to  get a free service that brings in more business.
Unless they have something to hide...


wow, that seems like a lot
this
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on February 21, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
wow, that seems like a lot
He's the only paid employee. They might have to hire more depending on how many restaurants they certify.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on February 22, 2015, 07:35:09 AM
Any possibility on starting s/t similar in the US?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 08:34:31 AM
Any possibility on starting s/t similar in the US?
No chance. The hechsherim are much more powerful here. No chance they'd let something like this
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on February 22, 2015, 08:35:25 AM
No chance. The hechsherim are much more powerful here. No chance they'd let something like this
But the consumers should demand it, unless the hechsherim have s/t to hide, and that makes us all suspicious.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 08:37:10 AM
But the consumers should demand it, unless the hechsherim have s/t to hide, and that makes us all suspicious.
Or they don't believe that some other organization has any standards or anything to add.
And the consumers don't believe it's necessary because the hechsherim have done a much better job of engendering trust
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on February 22, 2015, 08:39:18 AM
Or they don't believe that some other organization has any standards or anything to add.
And the consumers don't believe it's necessary because the hechsherim have done a much better job of engendering trust
Dunno, I've heard of ppl who try not to rely on the OU when eating out in the US.
But I can see your point.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 09:31:46 AM
Dunno, I've heard of ppl who try not to rely on the OU when eating out in the US.
Which I assume is just politics.
I can understand if you don't want to eat OU because of certain psakim they have (good luck in America, as almost every heimeshe hechsher relies on them for the core ingredients. And sometimes more than that.)
But from what I've seen personally, their actual hashgacha s excellent
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on February 22, 2015, 09:33:07 AM
Which I assume is just politics.
I can understand if you don't want to eat OU because of certain psakim they have (good luck in America, as almost every heimeshe hechsher relies on them for the core ingredients. And sometimes more than that.)
But from what I've seen personally, their actual hashgacha s excellent

Thx, good to know.
In Israel, can I assume the same? Or do they rely on different psaks?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 09:34:20 AM
Thx, good to know.
In Israel, can I assume the same? Or do they rely on different psaks?
I know nothing about OU Israel
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Dan on February 22, 2015, 09:36:29 AM
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on February 22, 2015, 09:40:08 AM
Thx, good to know.
In Israel, can I assume the same? Or do they rely on different psaks?

From what I understand,  OU Israel is under different management.  That means potentially different psak ( there are sheilos here thay have no relevance in the US and therefore were never asked there) and different standards of oversight.   
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
From what I understand,  OU Israel is under different management.  That means potentially different psak ( there are sheilos here thay have no relevance in the US and therefore were never asked there) and different standards of oversight.


https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/
LOL
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on February 22, 2015, 09:44:34 AM
Quote
The kashrus standards of products, food service establishments and Shechita are the same in Israel as they are in America and the rest of the world. In general, all halachic standards and policy decisions of any OU supervision are established by the OU Poskim and Rabbinic staff in our New York central office. Though the OU employs staff members in Israel to oversee the kashrus supervision, Poskim and Rabbinic Coordinators from the New York office travel to Israel frequently to review the operation on location and confirm that the supervision meets OU standards.

I posted before I saw this.

That notwithstanding, I  know people who are well informed and would not agree with this in it's entirety.

Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 09:48:48 AM
I posted before I saw this.

That notwithstanding, I  know people who are well informed and would not agree with this in it's entirety.
They think the OU is lying? How can you rely on their kashrus at all then?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on February 22, 2015, 09:53:27 AM
They think the OU is lying? How can you rely on their kashrus at all then?

You have enough stars under your name to know that there are many shades of truth.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on February 22, 2015, 09:55:42 AM
You have enough stars under your name to know that there are many shades of truth.
That statement doesn't leave any room for gray. And I don't want my kashrus organizations working in the gray areas anyways
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 22, 2015, 10:03:44 AM
That statement doesn't leave any room for gray. And I don't want my kashrus organizations working in the gray areas anyways

So what hechsherim do you eat?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Dan on February 22, 2015, 10:06:19 AM
They think the OU is lying? How can you rely on their kashrus at all then?
+1.
I've spoken to people in the OU and they say it's the same.
I'll take their word for it.  And it just reinforced my belief that much of the rumors in Israel are politically based.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on February 22, 2015, 11:30:06 AM


+1.
I've spoken to people in the OU and they say it's the same.
I'll take their word for it.  And it just reinforced my belief that much of the rumors in Israel are politically based.

Do you personally know the people you spoke to? I know and have spoken to many of the top individuals in the OU and while they insist it's the same, as soon as I ask for an of the record statement the entire picture changes. 
So it's quite to the contrary, the reason why you are told it's the same is politically based.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on February 22, 2015, 11:33:39 AM

Do you personally know the people you spoke to? I know and have spoken to many of the top individuals in the OU and while they insist it's the same, as soon as I ask for an of the record statement the entire picture changes. 
So it's quite to the contrary, the reason why you are told it's the same is politically based.

There are many shades of truth.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 22, 2015, 11:33:46 AM
+1.
I've spoken to people in the OU and they say it's the same.
I'll take their word for it.  And it just reinforced my belief that much of the rumors in Israel are politically based.
I spoke to someone heavily involved with the OU today. He said that although the policies are the same since OU Israel is run by Americans who have no clue how to deal with Israelis and Arabs there is no saying that those policies are enforced in Israel. In America, when a store has a policy it has a policy in Israel policies mean cr@p
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 22, 2015, 11:34:51 AM

Do you personally know the people you spoke to? I know and have spoken to many of the top individuals in the OU and while they insist it's the same, as soon as I ask for an of the record statement the entire picture changes. 
So it's quite to the contrary, the reason why you are told it's the same is politically based.

+1 on record they cannot say anything negative or it will come to bite them
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 22, 2015, 11:44:22 AM
+1 on record they cannot say anything negative or it will come to bite them
Trusting all these people who won't speak on the record?
I'm not saying they aren't speaking the truth necessarily. Just pointing out why again there is no black and white.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 22, 2015, 04:45:26 PM
Any possibility on starting s/t similar in the US?
I've spoken to a few Rabbanim that are heavily involved in hechsheirim, All are of the staunch opinion that the reliable hashgachos in America are way more efficient, and much better than most hashgachos in israel! (sans badatz, landau etc..) and they are actually reliable! Therefore they don't see a need for such a program there.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 22, 2015, 04:48:24 PM
I spoke to someone heavily involved with the OU today. He said that although the policies are the same since OU Israel is run by Americans who have no clue how to deal with Israelis and Arabs there is no saying that those policies are enforced in Israel. In America, when a store has a policy it has a policy in Israel policies mean cr@p
+1 I've spoken to mashgichim at ou restaurants here in israel, alot of the products they use are extremely questionable!!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moshe123 on February 22, 2015, 05:20:06 PM
Glad this thread is readable and not popcorn inducing.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2015, 05:35:17 PM
There were a bunch of these types of things here and there in America. Every single one of them ended up being for profit and some became mafias. Arvach arva tzarich. Eventually many people learned that they were better off strengthening the existing ones rather than weakening them.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Jkhein on February 22, 2015, 06:27:36 PM
I spoke to someone heavily involved with the OU today. He said that although the policies are the same since OU Israel is run by Americans who have no clue how to deal with Israelis and Arabs there is no saying that those policies are enforced in Israel. In America, when a store has a policy it has a policy in Israel policies mean cr@p
I was told the same by A very high position Rabbi of the OU, he told me to stay far away.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 23, 2015, 09:36:36 AM
Trusting all these people who won't speak on the record?
I'm not saying they aren't speaking the truth necessarily. Just pointing out why again there is no black and white.
An employee of the ou will not speak out against the ou.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 23, 2015, 09:54:00 AM
An employee of the ou will not speak out against the ou.
So they're working for a place that they don't believe holds to its claimed standards?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 23, 2015, 12:33:13 PM
So they're working for a place that they don't believe holds to its claimed standards?
No I spoke to a relative who works in the American OU and he personally is very pro everything ou (it's run properly and they do a good job) when I asked him about Israel he refused to comment
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 23, 2015, 01:24:12 PM
No I spoke to a relative who works in the American OU and he personally is very pro everything ou (it's run properly and they do a good job) when I asked him about Israel he refused to comment
That's exactly what I said. Their site claims the standards are on par. He seems to disagree with the statement his company puts out. However you look at it you get shady business or politics or the idea that kashrus is grey.
There is no answer at the end of what is true or not or what is "better" or not. 
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Tuna Baygel on February 24, 2015, 06:40:13 AM
No I spoke to a relative who works in the American OU and he personally is very pro everything ou (it's run properly and they do a good job) when I asked him about Israel he refused to comment
You have your relative that wont talk and he has his acquaintance that will

Being on the forums for a while you should know that everyone has at least one opinion!



 
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 24, 2015, 07:01:55 AM
id love to hear something concrete, r' krakowski seems like a capable individual
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on February 25, 2015, 03:22:31 PM
id love to hear something concrete, r' krakowski seems like a capable individual
Talk to Rabbi Kuber :-X
Anyhow, as mentioned earlier, the problem is not with the standards it's with the practical execution of the Hashgacha that many are not convinced some American is capable of. I can't wait to see if the KFI finds anything
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sky121 on February 25, 2015, 03:28:04 PM
Talk to Rabbi Kuber :-X
Anyhow, as mentioned earlier, the problem is not with the standards it's with the practical execution of the Hashgacha that many are not convinced some American is capable of. I can't wait to see if the KFI finds anything

You can always find something.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on February 25, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
Talk to Rabbi Kuber :-X

will do
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on February 25, 2015, 06:10:07 PM
will do
Rabbi Kuber works for the OU. I wonder if he'll give you a concrete answer...
But I would definitely like to hear what he says.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: bk73 on May 07, 2015, 08:24:31 AM
Does anyboday know what Rabbi weiner hold about Lechem Basar (R machboud)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 07, 2015, 08:48:14 AM
I'm pretty sure they found it to be good.
I dont know if it was officially approved yet.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on May 07, 2015, 09:00:51 AM
Is there a list of approved places?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 08, 2015, 05:47:30 AM
I'm pretty sure they found it to be good.
I dont know if it was officially approved yet.
Spoke to rabbi Weiner last night. Lechem Basar is good!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 08, 2015, 06:00:50 AM
Spoke to rabbi Weiner last night. Lechem Basar is good!
are there any machpoud places he doesn't hold of?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on May 08, 2015, 06:25:59 AM
are there any machpoud places he doesn't hold of?
That reminds me - Lara is no longer Machpoud.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 08, 2015, 06:36:11 AM
That reminds me - Lara is no longer Machpoud.
what is it now?
kind of hoping your gonna say rubin or badatz  ;D ;D
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Mech on May 08, 2015, 06:40:40 AM

Spoke to rabbi Weiner last night. Lechem Basar is good!
Besides the sirloin steak.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 08, 2015, 06:42:22 AM
are there any machpoud places he doesn't hold of?
Why not ask him yourself?

When he and KFI approve something, its done after very extensive research by rabanim that have been paskening for years. He's not some kollel guy whos been studying Halacha for 2 years and thinks he knows everything.

No one is forcing you to eat there if you dont want to.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 08, 2015, 06:44:44 AM
Besides the sirloin steak.
My seferadi friend says thats also very good.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: tjak on May 08, 2015, 06:44:59 AM
Is there any where I can find a list of all KFI approved places?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 08, 2015, 06:48:57 AM
Why not ask him yourself?

When he and KFI approve something, its done after very extensive research by rabanim that have been paskening for years. He's not some kollel guy whos been studying Halacha for 2 years and thinks he knows everything.

No one is forcing you to eat there if you dont want to.
im quite aware and i hold of him immensely. i have nothing but respect for him and actually go to him with many shailos. my question was mainly that im pretty sure he holds of all machpoud places so im not sure whats the breaking news here
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Mech on May 08, 2015, 07:18:59 AM

My seferadi friend says thats also very good.
May be very good in taste but as of KFI standards not good.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on May 08, 2015, 08:04:21 AM
what is it now?
kind of hoping your gonna say rubin or badatz  ;D ;D
As of now, nothing official afaik.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 08, 2015, 08:21:12 AM
As of now, nothing official afaik.
So no hechser currently?  When did this happen?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 08, 2015, 09:14:35 AM
May be very good in taste but as of KFI standards not good.
Was actually making a joke.

im quite aware and i hold of him immensely. i have nothing but respect for him and actually go to him with many shailos. my question was mainly that im pretty sure he holds of all machpoud places so im not sure whats the breaking news here
No problem. IINM he does not hold automatically of Machpud places.
The chidush with Lechem Basar is that it was vetted by the KFI standards and approved.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yitrap on May 08, 2015, 09:20:51 AM

Was actually making a joke.
No problem. IINM he does not hold automatically of Machpud places.
The chidush with Lechem Basar is that it was vetted by the KFI standards and approved.

Why is that a chiddush? Not attacking, asking. 
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 08, 2015, 09:26:36 AM
Why is that a chiddush? Not attacking, asking.
Read the WIKI or the first posts.
The KFI holds by Kasrus standards that not every Hechsher or restaurant measures up to.   
When the KFI evaluates a place and deems it worthy of the set standards, they certify it as such which gives people the peace of mind to eat there.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on May 08, 2015, 09:40:42 AM
So no hechser currently?  When did this happen?
This week.  Not sure why.  AFAIK the stuff is the same.
I wasn't there personally but this is what i was told.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on May 08, 2015, 11:46:49 AM
May be very good in taste but as of KFI standards not good.
You heard this from R' Weiner yourself? R' Moshe says that Ashkenazim can eat it, why would they argue?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yitrap on May 09, 2015, 02:34:49 PM

Read the WIKI or the first posts.
The KFI holds by Kasrus standards that not every Hechsher or restaurant measures up to.   
When the KFI evaluates a place and deems it worthy of the set standards, they certify it as such which gives people the peace of mind to eat there.
I read the wiki way before asking, my question is why lechem obasar was a chiddush specifically
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on May 09, 2015, 05:18:35 PM
I read the wiki way before asking, my question is why lechem obasar was a chiddush specifically
I'ts not a Chiddush that davka Lechem Basar got approved, it just happens to be they were.
Seeing how the vast majority of places are not KFI approved its news whenever a new place is.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yitrap on May 09, 2015, 05:21:04 PM

I'ts not a Chiddush that davka Lechem Basar got approved, it just happens to be they were.
Seeing how the vast majority of places are not KFI approved its news whenever a new place is.
Aha thanks, glad to hear their food is amazing.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on May 10, 2015, 01:25:47 PM
That reminds me - Lara is no longer Machpoud.
As of...? Last week the sign was up...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on May 10, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
As of...? Last week the sign was up...
I spoke to the chef on shabbos. He confirmed it's true
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 10, 2015, 02:36:54 PM
I spoke to the chef on shabbos. He confirmed it's true
did he say a reason? are the getting an alternative?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on May 10, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
did he say a reason? are the getting an alternative?
He said it was purely financial. They do not plan on getting anything else
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on May 10, 2015, 03:40:35 PM
He said it was purely financial. They do not plan on getting anything else
darn
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on May 10, 2015, 04:29:57 PM
He said it was purely financial. They do not plan on getting anything else
Do we daven in the same shul?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on May 11, 2015, 09:57:07 PM
You heard this from R' Weiner yourself? R' Moshe says that Ashkenazim can eat it, why would they argue?
It seems r moshe is not clear on the subject, which is why I believe the kfi never said anything official about it.
 P. S. It's not a Kashrus question, it's a side question weather a cut of meat which only sefardim eat, if an ashkenazi can eat when made by a sefardi.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on May 11, 2015, 09:57:53 PM
And btw fillet mignon has the same problem.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yare on May 13, 2015, 02:14:06 PM
Spoke to rabbi Weiner last night. Lechem Basar is good!
any official posting with the results expected?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on May 27, 2015, 11:39:20 AM
It seems r moshe is not clear on the subject, which is why I believe the kfi never said anything official about it.
 P. S. It's not a Kashrus question, it's a side question weather a cut of meat which only sefardim eat, if an ashkenazi can eat when made by a sefardi.
its pretty clear in the tshuva
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Mech on May 27, 2015, 12:42:23 PM

You heard this from R' Weiner yourself? R' Moshe says that Ashkenazim can eat it, why would they argue?
Yes I spoke to him myself. He didn't say it's asur, as Reb Moshe does matir it if it is cut a certain way. Rabbi Weiner said he doesn't know exactly how Machpud cuts it. So until they find out he said you should stay away from it.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Got a clue on June 10, 2015, 07:51:22 AM
Kiera and Shayan got removed from KFI list?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 10, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Kiera and Shayan got removed from KFI list?
where do you see that?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Got a clue on June 10, 2015, 08:21:54 AM
where do you see that?

That's what I have been hearing.. I am not signed up to their email list but someone who is told me he got an email from them
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 10, 2015, 08:33:37 AM
That's what I have been hearing.. I am not signed up to their email list but someone who is told me he got an email from them
I am signed up. I got no such email
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on June 10, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
I am signed up. I got no such email
How do you get on there email list?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: njmacman on June 10, 2015, 10:51:32 AM
Yes, how to get on their list?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 10, 2015, 11:09:29 AM
How do you get on there email list?

Yes, how to get on their list?
Email them at kfiisrael@gmail.com.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on June 10, 2015, 11:14:20 AM


Email them at kfiisrael@gmail.com.
Thanx.

Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 10, 2015, 07:22:59 PM
update: kfi did not remove themselves from shiyan and keiara they said if you dont change from the aguda then we will and now they are looking into some other hechsherim
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 03:56:12 AM
update: kfi did not remove themselves from shiyan and keiara they said if you dont change from the aguda then we will and now they are looking into some other hechsherim
Classic hashgocha blackmail. Anyways they won't find anyone better unless they do a severe overhaul of all ingredients which I can't see happening anytime soon
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 04:10:36 AM
update: kfi did not remove themselves from shiyan and keiara they said if you dont change from the aguda then we will and now they are looking into some other hechsherim
What's the matter with Aguda?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 11, 2015, 04:16:58 AM
What's the matter with Aguda?
For starters, when they were told that the mashgiach wasn't allowed in the machsan and felt "intimidated" to walk into the kitchen, Aguda's response was "What's the worst that could be going on?"
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
Classic hashgocha blackmail. Anyways they won't find anyone better unless they do a severe overhaul of all ingredients which I can't see happening anytime soon
What's the blackmail all KFI wants is that it should be up to a good kashrus there is no money involved
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 05:05:12 AM
What's the blackmail all KFI wants is that it should be up to a good kashrus there is no money involved
One question. Why did they approve it while it was under aguda and then decide its not good enough?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 05:16:41 AM
One question. Why did they approve it while it was under aguda and then decide its not good enough?
They went down and checked and said it was good but came down recently and saw that it wasn't what they thought
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 05:19:03 AM
For starters, when they were told that the mashgiach wasn't allowed in the machsan and felt "intimidated" to walk into the kitchen, Aguda's response was "What's the worst that could be going on?"
So they didn't realize that Aguda's standards werent what they expected?
I'd have assumed that they would have been familiar w/ their standards, unless Aguda just downgraded.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 05:51:29 AM
They went down and checked and said it was good but came down recently and saw that it wasn't what they thought
I hope KFI isn't that incompetent
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 11, 2015, 06:09:10 AM
I don't believe KFI officially recommended it, they just state the facts
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 06:14:18 AM
I don't believe KFI officially recommended it, they just state the facts
this whole KFI thing still confuses me, are they trying to make things simpler for Americans who care about kashrus? so what is telling me whats inside without telling me if its good doing? and at the end of the day when they come out with a report about a restaurant they are recommending it (albeit unofficially). lets cut the crap-they are acting like a hechser with a heck of a lot of disclaimers to keep them out of hot water
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 11, 2015, 06:15:39 AM
this whole KFI thing still confuses me, are they trying to make things simpler for Americans who care about kashrus? so what is telling me whats inside without telling me if its good doing? and at the end of the day when they come out with a report about a restaurant they are recommending it (albeit unofficially). lets cut the crap-they are acting like a hechser with a heck of a lot of disclaimers to keep them out of hot water
Officially it's so that you can bring the report to your [American] rov, who can advise you
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 06:19:40 AM
Officially it's so that you can bring the report to your [American] rov, who can advise you
So lets say that this is true that KFI doesn't want them to have aguda anymore, what will KFI do? The report is exactly the same there is nothing to change.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 11, 2015, 06:23:30 AM
So lets say that this is true that KFI doesn't want them to have aguda anymore, what will KFI do? The report is exactly the same there is nothing to change.
Correct. I don't know where this information is coming from, but I assume if it's accurate, it is the Rabbis of KFI who are pressuring, not the KFI per se. As Rabbi Weiner says, the purpose of KFI is to increase the number of places that Bnei Torah can eat at, not diminish
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 06:26:56 AM
lets cut the crap-they are acting like a hechser with a heck of a lot of disclaimers to keep them out of hot water
Hey buddy, would be a shame for something to happen to the pretty apartment you live in...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 06:36:30 AM
Correct. I don't know where this information is coming from, but I assume if it's accurate, it is the Rabbis of KFI who are pressuring, not the KFI per se. As Rabbi Weiner says, the purpose of KFI is to increase the number of places that Bnei Torah can eat at, not diminish
+1
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: chuchem on June 11, 2015, 08:02:49 AM
I must say agudah is around for long enough, so kfi first saying it's standards are good (stop saying they didn't do that) and then within a short while changing it's tone leaves me wondering if they did the homework

While I am sure intentions are good, I am not sure a few choshuwe 'wanna be kashrus experts' can be relied on, as this quick u-turn has showed
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 08:13:40 AM
I must say agudah is around for long enough, so kfi first saying it's standards are good (stop saying they didn't do that) and then within a short while changing it's tone leaves me wondering if they did the homework

While I am sure intentions are good, I am not sure a few choshuwe 'wanna be kashrus experts' can be relied on, as this quick u-turn has showed
do you even know who the rabbonim on kfi even are to speak like that besides they didnt say that the agudah was good they said for those 2 restaurants you can rely on them because they are up to the standards that we hold of but they really didnt hold up to those standards thats  why all this came out
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on June 11, 2015, 08:28:31 AM
There is a problem in Israeli kashrus that many seem not to be aware of.  There are kashrus agencies that officially have certain standards but have terrible track records ensuring those standards at establishments under their hashgocha.   It is therefore possible for an establishment to have a hechsher whose official standards are acceptable to KFIs rabbonim, yet whose actually enforced level of kashrus are not.  It is possible that they committed to a certain level of enforced kashrus standards, and were later found not to be upholding their commitment.

I know nothing of the actual case under discussion, and I do not know anything about KFI other than what I've read in this thread.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 08:30:08 AM
There is a problem in Israeli kashrus that many seem not to be aware of.  There are kashrus agencies that officially have certain standards but have terrible track records ensuring those standards at establishments under their hashgocha.   It is therefore possible for an establishment to have a hechsher whose official standards are acceptable to KFIs rabbonim, yet whose actually enforced level of kashrus are not.  It is possible that they committed to a certain level of enforced kashrus standards, and were later found not to be upholding their commitment.
+1 couldnt say better myself
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: raphy781 on June 11, 2015, 08:30:27 AM
I must say agudah is around for long enough, so kfi first saying it's standards are good (stop saying they didn't do that) and then within a short while changing it's tone leaves me wondering if they did the homework

While I am sure intentions are good, I am not sure a few choshuwe 'wanna be kashrus experts' can be relied on, as this quick u-turn has showed
FWIU Sheyan and Keyara were under the Agudah, many things weren't being done the way they should have been, and the Agudah never removed their hashgacha nor did they implement the changes that were necessary. KFI worked with the restaurants to fix these issues and is helping them maintain certain standards of kashrus. Being that the Agudah isn't up to par (based on what was happening under their watch) they will be switching hechsherim, but finding a new hechsher isn't simple which is why it didn't happen right away.
P.s. I haven't verified this. It's just the way I understand all that I've heard about the issue.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 08:57:53 AM


'wanna be kashrus experts'
I am not either sure whats going on here, but that is just going to far. You are now zero in my book. (Not that it means anything)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Boruch999 on June 11, 2015, 09:03:33 AM
I am not either sure whats going on here, but that is just going to far. You are now zero in my book. (Not that it means anything)
+1
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on June 11, 2015, 09:21:56 AM
I am not either sure whats going on here, but that is just going to far. You are now zero in my book. (Not that it means anything)

Cmon, you don't find it even a little funny that someone called R Kuber a wannabe kashrus expert?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 11, 2015, 09:26:20 AM
Cmon, you don't find it even a little funny that someone called R Kuber a wannabe kashrus expert?
from now on we should ask chuchem all kashrus questions he seems to know better
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on June 11, 2015, 09:57:07 AM
Cmon, you don't find it even a little funny that someone called R Kuber a wannabe kashrus expert?
lol
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on June 11, 2015, 01:35:17 PM
I don't understand all the venting here, if anyone is confused about what they are trying to do, why don't you call them yourself?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on June 11, 2015, 01:42:03 PM
And with regard to sheyan - keyara, there were very serious halachic problems when the rabbanim went to check it out, however they didn't feel it was they're place to make a restaurant change hashgachos, so they sent down they're own mashgichim to be on top of it once the restaurant promised to make the necessary changes, being that the aguda is completely incompetent, however that was only a trial period, as kfi is not a hashgacha so they could not be on top of it forever. My guess is what happened now is that the restaurant wasn't keeping to what was agreed upon, which would therefore constitute kfi to tell them to change hashgachos, as the aguda is not reliable based on what they found.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 02:46:11 PM
There is a problem in Israeli kashrus that many seem not to be aware of.  There are kashrus agencies that officially have certain standards but have terrible track records ensuring those standards at establishments under their hashgocha.

Is this a problem in the US at all, or is it Israel-specific?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on June 11, 2015, 03:00:41 PM
Is this a problem in the US at all, or is it Israel-specific?
It seems the system in place with American hashgachos is more sophisticated as well as more effective, than that of the Israeli system. For example in America, the Mashgiach is the one with the keys, and has a say.. Etc, as opposed to in israel where there is a mifakeach on top of the Mashgiach, and a mifakeach on top him.... Etc. Besides all the politics that go on with Israeli hashgachos.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 03:08:53 PM
It seems the system in place with American hashgachos is more sophisticated as well as more effective, than that of the Israeli system. For example in America, the Mashgiach is the one with the keys, and has a say.. Etc, as opposed to in israel where there is a mifakeach on top of the Mashgiach, and a mifakeach on top him.... Etc. Besides all the politics that go on with Israeli hashgachos.
A place as big of NYC has been able to stay away from politics in kashrus?
(I'm from small town USA, so am unaware of these things)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on June 11, 2015, 03:11:56 PM
A place as big of NYC has been able to stay away from politics in kashrus?
(I'm from small town USA, so am unaware of these things)
I don't know enough to answer that, although I suppose your right. But it seems in israel it's alot more widespread, as has more serious repercussions.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 03:17:18 PM
A place as big of NYC has been able to stay away from politics in kashrus?
not close, but the issues are different
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 03:19:13 PM
not close, but the issues are different
Teach me father
I need to be kovea itim tonight
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 03:20:47 PM
Teach me father
I need to be kovea itim tonight
i charge, and i only teach if people will actually implement
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on June 11, 2015, 06:24:43 PM
i charge, and i only teach if people will actually implement
When I eat out in NYC, I'll take what you say under serious consideration.
But in the end, it's up to my posek and her psak.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on June 11, 2015, 06:29:29 PM
When I eat out in NYC, I'll take what you say under serious consideration.
But in the end, it's up to my posek and her psak.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: shimino1 on June 12, 2015, 09:45:04 AM
When I eat out in NYC, I'll take what you say under serious consideration.
But in the end, it's up to my posek and her psak.
LOL!!!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on June 18, 2015, 09:40:41 AM
.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Mech on June 18, 2015, 09:43:07 AM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/18/13a5186ceadc9b9d7d9abc164713bd20.jpg)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on June 18, 2015, 10:42:46 AM
.
thanx for the update
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on June 18, 2015, 04:43:12 PM
please let us know if and when it becomes ok again
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on August 26, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
Spoke to rabbi Weiner last night. Lechem Basar is good!
KFI report on lechem ubasar
http://www.jerusalemkoshernews.com/wp-content/uploads/kfi-Report-lechem-basar.pdf
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moishebatchy on August 30, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
Still no update on Sheyan and Keyara?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Ergel on August 30, 2015, 10:17:19 PM
KFI report on lechem ubasar
http://www.jerusalemkoshernews.com/wp-content/uploads/kfi-Report-lechem-basar.pdf
I'm confused. What's the point of this report? It's just stating the standards of the hashgacha. You could get that info from the mashgiach?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on August 31, 2015, 01:45:29 AM
Still no report on Sheyan and Keyara.  And KFI was officially closed, due to the fact that they realized if they are not the ones giving the Hashgacha, they have very little impact on any changes.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 02:31:32 AM
Still no report on Sheyan and Keyara.  And KFI was officially closed, due to the fact that they realized if they are not the ones giving the Hashgacha, they have very little impact on any changes.

if thats the case, that would be a shame. when did they decide to shut?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 02:33:05 AM
I'm confused. What's the point of this report? It's just stating the standards of the hashgacha. You could get that info from the mashgiach?
it would mean that the info is up to a certain level to meet the kfi standards
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on August 31, 2015, 06:12:02 AM
if thats the case, that would be a shame. when did they decide to shut?
I believe it was a couple weeks ago, after they checked out a few Rabbanut Mehadrin places.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on August 31, 2015, 06:27:46 AM
I believe it was a couple weeks ago, after they checked out a few Rabbanut Mehadrin places.
Like which place?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on August 31, 2015, 06:29:23 AM
Like which place?
It was a few places, I think Ricotta was one of them. Though I may be mistaken.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 07:41:36 AM
I believe it was a couple weeks ago, after they checked out a few Rabbanut Mehadrin places.
ok, so i spoke to r kuber this past wedneday and he said that they were having meetings on how to proceed. i guess its not as dead as you are saying
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on August 31, 2015, 08:21:54 AM
It was a few places, I think Ricotta was one of them. Though I may be mistaken.
What did they say re:ricotta?  r' zuritski said it was good  (not saying you can rely on it, just saying..)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 08:31:41 AM
What did they say re:ricotta?  r' zuritski said it was good  (not saying you can rely on it, just saying..)
how recent did he say that?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on August 31, 2015, 09:02:19 AM
What did they say re:ricotta?  r' zuritski said it was good  (not saying you can rely on it, just saying..)
Sorry for not knowing but who is R Zuritsky?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on August 31, 2015, 09:16:53 AM
Rabbi Kuber told me a couple months back, that he's heard they have a very good Mashgiach. But he's sure they use products he wouldn't recommend (I. E.Aguda, and C"S Petach Tikvah) And Rabbanut Mehadrin Yerushalayim today is not much of a Hashgacha, so you are dependent solely on the Mashgiach.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
in the beginning, they used to advertise that r' zeritzky said it was good, but they havent done so in a very long time.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on August 31, 2015, 05:22:26 PM
how recent did he say that?
i heard it a few years ago
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on August 31, 2015, 05:38:28 PM
i heard it a few years ago

in the beginning, they used to advertise that r' zeritzky said it was good, but they havent done so in a very long time.

i would reckon it's no longer the case
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: DanH on August 31, 2015, 05:44:31 PM
Rabbi Kuber told me a couple months back, that he's heard they have a very good Mashgiach. But he's sure they use products he wouldn't recommend (I. E.Aguda, and C"S Petach Tikvah) And Rabbanut Mehadrin Yerushalayim today is not much of a Hashgacha, so you are dependent solely on the Mashgiach.
I was told that R' Kuber isn't  against C"S P"T as a whole, rather each product needs its own OK.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on August 31, 2015, 05:52:48 PM
I was told that R' Kuber isn't  against C"S P"T as a whole, rather each product needs its own OK.
He told me the Hashgacha is not reliable.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on September 02, 2015, 12:50:17 PM
FTR The Rabbanim checked out Agas Vitapuach as well, and found quite a few things with questionable Hashgachos. Secondly, one of the Rabbanim felt that KFI was causing a Michshol, being that people were viewing it as an approval, instead of just an informative as to what is going on in these restaurants, and therefore felt they should close.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 02, 2015, 07:03:28 PM
FTR The Rabbanim checked out Agas Vitapuach as well, and found quite a few things with questionable Hashgachos. Secondly, one of the Rabbanim felt that KFI was causing a Michshol, being that people were viewing it as an approval, instead of just an informative as to what is going on in these restaurants, and therefore felt they should close.
By any chance do you know which one?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: damaxer91 on September 02, 2015, 07:08:24 PM
BH, this means that we can start eating everything
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 02, 2015, 07:11:03 PM
BH, this means that we can start eating everything
Why do you say that? Now that we know that there are issues each person respectively should check on his own.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on September 03, 2015, 01:24:19 AM
Has anyone considered setting up a KFI type org in the US to ensure ppl are aware of what they're eating?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on September 03, 2015, 09:28:22 AM
Has anyone considered setting up a KFI type org in the US to ensure ppl are aware of what they're eating?

People here (US) are too complacent, probably bec. they lived their whole life in one place.
When people go to a new place they start asking questions to find out the basics,
which doesn't usually happen in your hometown.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 03, 2015, 10:04:06 AM
Why do you say that? Now that we know that there are issues each person respectively should check on his own.

Search dictionary.com for "sarcasm".
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 05, 2015, 07:02:10 PM
spoke to R' Weiner he said KFI is not closed and they don't plan on closing down they are just changing some things around.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on September 05, 2015, 07:19:55 PM
spoke to R' Weiner he said KFI is not closed and they don't plan on closing down they are just changing some things around.
thats kind of what r kuber told me. do you have any details?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on September 05, 2015, 07:22:30 PM
spoke to R' Weiner he said KFI is not closed and they don't plan on closing down they are just changing some things around.
I think they are trying to keep things quiet,  until they have something concrete set up.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 05, 2015, 08:32:20 PM
thats kind of what r kuber told me. do you have any details?
Not yet
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: hocker on September 06, 2015, 02:43:10 AM
I don't think it was profitable. They're probably looking for a way to make profitable. 
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on September 06, 2015, 02:45:12 AM
I don't think it was profitable. They're probably looking for a way to make profitable.
Source? I don't believe that's their intensions at all!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moishebatchy on September 06, 2015, 03:25:49 AM
I don't think it was profitable. They're probably looking for a way to make profitable.

Oh, shut up.

I guess it's true what they say - no good deed goes unpunished...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 06, 2015, 03:15:16 PM
Oh, shut up.

I guess it's true what they say - no good deed goes unpunished...
+1 why are people always so critical of an organization that wants to do good
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moshe123 on September 06, 2015, 04:25:26 PM
People will always stick up and believe only the best intentions, if the people involved are from their crowd.

I have no clue on this.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on September 07, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
People will always stick up and believe only the best intentions, if the people involved are from their crowd.

I have no clue on this.
And people will always assume the worst of people when they have no clue who they are
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on September 07, 2015, 01:47:03 PM
+1 why are people always so critical of an organization that wants to do good
I've got no horse in the race, but if I were a respected kashrus agency, and am losing biz b/c an unofficial org is saying not to rely on the places I supervise, I could imagine I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on September 07, 2015, 02:52:20 PM
I've got no horse in the race, but if I were a respected kashrus agency, and am losing biz b/c an unofficial org is saying not to rely on the places I supervise, I could imagine I wouldn't be too happy about it.
well, should an independent, not for profit organization kashrus organization say you are not reliable, it might be a wake up call that its only you who thinks you're respected
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2015, 06:10:10 PM
I've got no horse in the race, but if I were a respected kashrus agency, and am losing biz b/c an unofficial org is saying not to rely on the places I supervise, I could imagine I wouldn't be too happy about it.

And therefore what?
Hechsherim are trying to sell their product (the hechsher) to consumers, and we have no right to know what we're getting?

KFI is a consumer advocacy group and should be greatly appreciated by all consumers. Does it really bother you when an unreliable hechsher gets called out? As it stands right now, every single agency has room to improve.

Is that what you expect when you literally pay double for something like eida chicken?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on September 07, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
And therefore what?
Hechsherim are trying to sell their product (the hechsher) to consumers, and we have no right to know what we're getting?

KFI is a consumer advocacy group and should be greatly appreciated by all consumers. Does it really bother you when an unreliable hechsher gets called out? As it stands right now, every single agency has room to improve.

Is that what you expect when you literally pay double for something like eida chicken?

Your analysis is 100% dead on, but the problem I have  is that people dont consume hechesher they consume food, and they want the hechsher to to be the ' consumer advocacy group ' that insures that their food is indeed kosher.

People dont understand why they need a  consumer advocacy group  on top of the  consumer advocacy group, it doesnt make sense.

In Isreal I think there should be dramatic change to how kashurus is handled, but I doubt that my plan would get any traction with anyone in the establishment.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on September 07, 2015, 07:21:40 PM
And therefore what?
Hechsherim are trying to sell their product (the hechsher) to consumers, and we have no right to know what we're getting?

KFI is a consumer advocacy group and should be greatly appreciated by all consumers. Does it really bother you when an unreliable hechsher gets called out? As it stands right now, every single agency has room to improve.

Is that what you expect when you literally pay double for something like eida chicken?
+10000
In Isreal I think there should be dramatic change to how kashurus is handled, but I doubt that my plan would get any traction with anyone in the establishment.
what is your plan? (you never know)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2015, 08:20:13 PM
Your analysis is 100% dead on, but the problem I have  is that people dont consume hechesher they consume food, and they want the hechsher to to be the ' consumer advocacy group ' that insures that their food is indeed kosher.

People dont understand why they need a  consumer advocacy group  on top of the  consumer advocacy group, it doesnt make sense.

In Isreal I think there should be dramatic change to how kashurus is handled, but I doubt that my plan would get any traction with anyone in the establishment.

I'd also like to believe that hechsherim fill the advocacy role, but unfortunately they don't.
How many restaurants have a full time mashgiach to ask questions about standards?
How many hechsherim publish their kashrut standards and answer questions to consumers that don't know the difference between the 15+ charedi hechsherim?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: incendia on September 08, 2015, 09:11:50 PM
what is your plan? (you never know)

I would have hechsher done by a professional government bureaucracy. Similar to how health inspections are done at restaurants in NYC.

I think that is what the rabanut was supposed to be way back, but now IMO the Rabanut and most hechsharim are plagued by incompetence, corruption, and worst of all politics.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on September 08, 2015, 10:32:19 PM
I would have hechsher done by a professional government bureaucracy. Similar to how health inspections are done at restaurants in NYC.

I think that is what the rabanut was supposed to be way back, but now IMO the Rabanut and most hechsharim are plagued by incompetence, corruption, and worst of all politics.

Huh?
Rabbanut is a (un)professional government bureaucracy.
Do we need another incompetent organization to take over?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on September 09, 2015, 03:04:33 AM


How many restaurants have a full time mashgiach to ask questions about standards?
Any restaurant with a "top of the line" hechser here
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Drago on September 09, 2015, 03:58:21 AM
And therefore what?
I was simply responding to this question.
Not taking any stand on the matter.

+1 why are people always so critical of an organization that wants to do good
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yuneeq on September 09, 2015, 09:16:13 AM
Any restaurant with a "top of the line" hechser here

Now let's hear, what do you consider a top of the line hechsher?
For example, I hear Eida has pretty primitive standards when it comes to actual supervision, relying very much on מירתת and other scare tactics. That might work for them, but it's not the same as a full time mashgiach.



Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on October 12, 2015, 12:28:49 PM
any updates with sheyan/keyara?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on October 12, 2015, 01:02:26 PM
any updates with sheyan/keyara?
just spoke to r' shmuel weiner's son he said as of now they are both good, besides for the aguda they have another mashgiach that they trust
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 12, 2015, 01:56:57 PM
just spoke to r' shmuel weiner's son he said as of now they are both good, besides for the aguda they have another mashgiach that they trust
Yes that mashgiach not sure if it still is but definitely was over succos, R Weiner son himself.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on October 12, 2015, 03:23:35 PM
Yes that mashgiach not sure if it still is but definitely was over succos, R Weiner son himself.
his son told me up untill yesterday he was now they found someone and its good
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 12, 2015, 05:24:33 PM
just spoke to r' shmuel weiner's son he said as of now they are both good, besides for the aguda they have another mashgiach that they trust
Yes that mashgiach not sure if it still is but definitely was over succos, R Weiner son himself.
I don't think it was profitable. They're probably looking for a way to make profitable. 
just give it time. Anything else like this has always ended up going from doing good to doing well.
Stores do not pay KFI.
thats what everyones been saying all along except for one person who shall remain nameless that called us either naive or wrong
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 12, 2015, 05:30:03 PM

Point?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on October 12, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
hes trying to say they are now a for profit since they installed their own mashgiach
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 12, 2015, 06:54:46 PM
hes trying to say they are now a for profit since they installed their own mashgiach
Why is it so hard to believe that people would actually do something just for the sake of kashrus?!?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 12, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
hes trying to say they are now a for profit since they installed their own mashgiach
What profit?? R Weiner is paying out of his own pocket for the mashgiach!
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on October 13, 2015, 03:01:35 AM
What profit?? R Weiner is paying out of his own pocket for the mashgiach!
uh huh....
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Zevi16 on October 13, 2015, 03:15:33 AM

BH in the Frum community some people do chesed just for the sake of helping others
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 13, 2015, 03:19:36 AM
uh huh....
Ah so you mean R Weiner is lying??
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 13, 2015, 03:40:34 AM
What profit?? R Weiner is paying out of his own pocket for the mashgiach!
-1 The restaurant has to pay the Mashgiach separately from the Hashgacha either way, So they are paying this Mashgiach through Rabbi Weiner, so that he can stay on top of him, being that he holds his paycheck.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 13, 2015, 03:42:24 AM
And as a side point, Quite a few big gevirim offered Rabbi Weiner to cover any expenses it would take to make Sheyan/Keyara Kosher.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 13, 2015, 04:01:35 AM
-1 The restaurant has to pay the Mashgiach separately from the Hashgacha either way, So they are paying this Mashgiach through Rabbi Weiner, so that he can stay on top of him, being that he holds his paycheck.
Wrong. Besides agudahs mashgiach R Weiner has and pays another mashgiach nothing to do with the restaurant.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 13, 2015, 04:02:19 AM
And as a side point, Quite a few big gevirim offered Rabbi Weiner to cover any expenses it would take to make Sheyan/Keyara Kosher.
Ok that still doesn't make it a profitable org.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 13, 2015, 04:04:09 AM
Wrong. Besides agudahs mashgiach R Weiner has and pays another mashgiach nothing to do with the restaurant.
They got rid of Aguda's Mashgiach some time ago, being that he was unreliable. I think Rabbi Weiner's Mashgiach is the only Mashgiach there now.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 13, 2015, 04:05:22 AM
Ok that still doesn't make it a profitable org.
100% my point was that Rabbi Weiner would not have to pay out of his pocket, not that it would make it profitable. Although I don't think he took anyone up on their offer...
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: sammy n on October 13, 2015, 04:07:06 AM
They got rid of Aguda's Mashgiach some time ago, being that he was unreliable. I think Rabbi Weiner's Mashgiach is the only Mashgiach there now.
-1 they currently have their own mashgiach.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on October 13, 2015, 05:03:42 AM
uh huh....
Meaning?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 13, 2015, 05:50:08 AM
Meaning?

#Sarcasm
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on October 13, 2015, 05:52:05 AM
#Sarcasm
Baseless sarcasm about issues like this are uncalled for. If your gonna be cynical,have something to back it up
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moishebatchy on October 13, 2015, 05:54:38 AM
Baseless sarcasm about issues like this are uncalled for. If your gonna be cynical,have something to back it up

👆 גם אני מצטרף להנ״ל
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on October 13, 2015, 07:10:04 AM
so there are currently 2 mashgichim there? seems odd

and does this apply to both sheyan and keyara? was there ever two separate mashgichim for them?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: SamKey on October 13, 2015, 07:45:30 AM
Baseless sarcasm about issues like this are uncalled for. If your gonna be cynical,have something to back it up
Please tell me in what universe would any sound person pay money out of his pocket to help a restaurant make money that he has no personal vested interest nor has the cash flow.
Ah so you mean R Weiner is lying??
You said his son said it. Maybe his son thinks that's the case but my money is that it's not
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 13, 2015, 08:09:57 AM
Please tell me in what universe would any sound person pay money out of his pocket to help a restaurant make money that he has no personal vested interest nor has the cash flow.You said his son said it. Maybe his son thinks that's the case but my money is that it's not
First of all maybe it's for the sake of Kashrus, not to help the restaurant make money. And secondly I don't believe he is paying money out of his own pocket.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 13, 2015, 10:16:58 AM
First of all maybe it's for the sake of Kashrus, not to help the restaurant make money. And secondly I don't believe he is paying money out of his own pocket.
For the sake of kashrus he can tell people not to eat there. No need to pay a salary.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on October 13, 2015, 10:55:17 AM
For the sake of kashrus he can tell people not to eat there. No need to pay a salary.
The entire point of KFI is to tell people where they can eat, not where they can't. R' Senter started it to increase the number of restaurants where Americans are allowed to eat
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 13, 2015, 11:25:08 AM
The entire point of KFI is to tell people where they can eat, not where they can't. R' Senter started it to increase the number of restaurants where Americans are allowed to eat
Is having more places to eat in a restaurant for the sake of kashrus or for the sake of taavos?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Moshe123 on October 13, 2015, 11:27:54 AM
Is having more places to eat in a restaurant for the sake of kashrus or for the sake of taavos?

EHEM
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 13, 2015, 11:29:50 AM
I am not saying that it is a bad thing, but I wouldn't call that a sacrifice for kashrus.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yitrap on October 13, 2015, 11:36:31 AM

Is having more places to eat in a restaurant for the sake of kashrus or for the sake of taavos?
It's for the sake of Americans who come to EY and see some Hebrew writing that says badat"z and a guy with a beard and end up eating in places they shouldn't...

Can't tell you how many conversations I've had in just over a year that are shocking.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moish on October 13, 2015, 11:38:51 AM
Is having more places to eat in a restaurant for the sake of kashrus or for the sake of taavos?
more is a relative term. how many restaurants would you consider being for the sake of taavos
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 13, 2015, 11:58:03 AM
I would say that anything more than the basic takeout/fast food and the like for when someone can't cook/make shabbos is a luxury.

Simply-a luxury restaurant is exactly that-a luxury.

I understand the point in their existence and do not mean to say that going to one make one a baal taava, but to make it a chov kadosh is ridiculous.

Question: If the aforementioned restaurants were 1000% kashrus compliant but unprofitable and about to close would you consider giving maaser money to the owner "for the sake of kashrus" to help him stay open so that there should be more restaurant options available.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 14, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
Wrong. Besides agudahs mashgiach R Weiner has and pays another mashgiach nothing to do with the restaurant.
For the sake of clarity, Rabbi Weiner's son was the Mashgiach there together with Aguda's Mashgiach temporarily over yom tov. (The restaurant paid his salary, not his father) However now Rabbi Weiner's permanent Mashgiach is the only Mashgiach there, and is being paid by the restaurant through Rabbi Weiner.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 14, 2015, 11:48:55 AM
I would say that anything more than the basic takeout/fast food and the like for when someone can't cook/make shabbos is a luxury.

Simply-a luxury restaurant is exactly that-a luxury.

I understand the point in their existence and do not mean to say that going to one make one a baal taava, but to make it a chov kadosh is ridiculous.

Question: If the aforementioned restaurants were 1000% kashrus compliant but unprofitable and about to close would you consider giving maaser money to the owner "for the sake of kashrus" to help him stay open so that there should be more restaurant options available.
I believe the point is for the many people who eat there (as well as other places...) and do not realize there are major Kashrus problems.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: aygart on October 14, 2015, 12:36:03 PM
For the sake of clarity, Rabbi Weiner's son was the Mashgiach there together with Aguda's Mashgiach temporarily over yom tov. (The restaurant paid his salary, not his father) However now Rabbi Weiner's permanent Mashgiach is the only Mashgiach there, and is being paid by the restaurant through Rabbi Weiner.

So now this has become a full fledged hechsher. Anyone surprised?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on October 14, 2015, 12:39:47 PM
So now this has become a full fledged hechsher. Anyone surprised?
Well not exactly, the Hashgacha stays the same. Just that There's a competent Mashgiach now That's it. And besides, it has only come to this because they tried keeping the status quo, and realized that they are just completely unreliable, but this was not the intention.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yochiek93 on October 15, 2015, 12:12:00 AM
So now this has become a full fledged hechsher. Anyone surprised?
no  its like that mashgiach works for the aguda
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on November 19, 2015, 05:40:56 AM
 :D
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on November 19, 2015, 05:47:56 AM
:D
is that officially KFI or a separate thing?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Chaikel on November 19, 2015, 05:52:43 AM
is that officially KFI or a separate thing?
I assume separate if it's not on their letterhead. But it's a little meinyaan linyan
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on November 19, 2015, 07:08:45 AM
is that officially KFI or a separate thing?
KFI is History! This is Rabbi Weiners doing. (with Rabbi Kubers backing)
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on November 19, 2015, 07:13:33 AM
KFI is History!
does R Weiner know this?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: elya on November 19, 2015, 07:14:40 AM
does R Weiner know this?
Well, he was the one that told me this. So I should hope so.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: yeshivaman on January 06, 2019, 10:25:26 PM
Well, he was the one that told me this. So I should hope so.
is there a current equivalent to KFI?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: moko on January 06, 2019, 11:22:01 PM
R' Weiner presented at the last AKO vaadim conference under the name ZNT Kashrus.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on January 07, 2019, 02:33:40 AM
R' Weiner presented at the last AKO vaadim conference under the name ZNT Kashrus.
Well that's the hechser he currently leads. Has a couple restaurants under his teuda.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: grodnoking on January 07, 2019, 03:11:47 AM
Well that's the hechser he currently leads. Has a couple restaurants under his teuda.
Is his organization a "hechsher", or a "haskomah"?
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: Emkay on January 07, 2019, 03:24:44 AM
Is his organization a "hechsher", or a "haskomah"?
More of a hechser.
Title: Re: KFI - Kashrus Watchdog in Israel
Post by: gross5g on January 07, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Any questions please email zntkosher@Gmail.com