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DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: chff on March 24, 2015, 07:23:26 AM

Title: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: chff on March 24, 2015, 07:23:26 AM
Quote
Breaking news! An Airbus A320 with 142 passengers and six crewmembers onboard reportedly crashed in Digne region, southern France. The jet, which belonged to Germanwings Airlines, was flying from Barcelona to Dsseldorf.

Now this one is close to home, wondering if my meeting with LH is still on....
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 24, 2015, 10:46:42 AM
Why is it they never know exactly where the plane went down. They can pinpoint my car within a foot (OK maybe not a foot but you get the point) of where I am at. I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 11:03:49 AM
Why is it they never know exactly where the plane went down. They can pinpoint my car within a foot (OK maybe not a foot but you get the point) of where I am at. I just don't get it.
YOU can pinpoint your car to within a yard but unless your GPS is reporting its position, no one else can.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: A European on March 24, 2015, 11:03:53 AM
I am near DUS now any point on going there?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 24, 2015, 11:07:26 AM
YOU can pinpoint your car to within a yard but unless your GPS is reporting its position, no one else can.
Is it that hard for planes to report 24/7? You can track cars with $30 devices.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 11:13:04 AM
Is it that hard for planes to report 24/7? You can track cars with $30 devices.
I know it was discussed after MH370 disappeared, there's probably loads of red tape involved and major upgrades needed so it will take some time probably.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JoeCha on March 24, 2015, 11:26:49 AM
I am near DUS now any point on going there?
The only thing you'll not see there is the plane.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Hudi on March 24, 2015, 12:46:13 PM
What's with the A320s going down??
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 01:19:41 PM
Why is it they never know exactly where the plane went down. They can pinpoint my car within a foot (OK maybe not a foot but you get the point) of where I am at. I just don't get it.
Why do you say they didn't find it? I'm pretty sure they sent helicopters to the crash site pretty much right after it was lost.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 24, 2015, 02:51:46 PM
It's probably extremely expensive to setup the standard (getting everyone to agree, decide who will host the data), and getting the airlines to agree to have it. They might also consider it a liability, the data can probably be used against them.

I wonder how http://www.flightradar24.com/ gets their data?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 02:54:12 PM

I wonder how http://www.flightradar24.com/ gets their data?
From radar data.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JayR on March 24, 2015, 02:57:12 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32030270

Black box found, no distress signals sent
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 24, 2015, 03:16:35 PM
From radar data.

So what is missing then? Radar transponders that can't be turned off?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32030270

Black box found, no distress signals sent

I thought I read in the news previously that a distress signal was received approx. 30 minutes before they lost radar contact. That was misinformation?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JayR on March 24, 2015, 03:25:41 PM
I thought I read in the news previously that a distress signal was received approx. 30 minutes before they lost radar contact. That was misinformation?

Quote from: The Link I Posted
The plane did not send out a distress signal, officials said. Earlier reports of a distress call, quoting the French interior ministry, referred to a message from controllers on the ground.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 03:29:21 PM
So what is missing then? Radar transponders that can't be turned off?
MH370 disappeared in an area not covered by radar.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: DovDov on March 24, 2015, 03:55:12 PM
Is it my imagination or have there been lately an unusually higher rate of mid-flight commercial plane crashes r"l?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JoeCha on March 24, 2015, 04:06:56 PM
Is it my imagination or have there been lately an unusually higher rate of mid-flight commercial plane crashes r"l?
+1

Maybe the old guys should chime in. Is this more than it used to be?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: username on March 24, 2015, 04:19:41 PM
+1

Maybe the old guys should chime in. Is this more than it used to be?
See here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 24, 2015, 04:23:22 PM
HALTERN, Germany What should have been a happy homecoming for teens returning from a trip abroad turned into a nightmare Tuesday as a community in northern Germany learned 16 of its high schoolers were aboard a flight which crashed into the French Alps.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/german-plane-crash/students-crash-n329356
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 24, 2015, 04:57:07 PM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193124#.VRHPj-GGOn8
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: chff on March 24, 2015, 05:11:45 PM
From radar data.

So what is missing then? Radar transponders that can't be turned off?

I thought I read in the news previously that a distress signal was received approx. 30 minutes before they lost radar contact. That was misinformation?
They get their info from ADS-B not from radar
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 10:51:55 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/4U9525_flight_path_v1.svg/429px-4U9525_flight_path_v1.svg.png)

I don't get it, looks like they could have easily made it to MRS (or even NCE).
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: MeirS on March 25, 2015, 10:54:11 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/4U9525_flight_path_v1.svg/429px-4U9525_flight_path_v1.svg.png)

I don't get it, looks like they could have easily made it to MRS (or even NCE).
That's because you're assuming they had complete control of the plane.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: TimT on March 25, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 08:22:38 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html

Crazy.  One pilot was locked out of the cockpit and the other unresponsive.  I wonder if we'll ever find out wth happened in there!
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 08:25:16 PM
HALTERN, Germany What should have been a happy homecoming for teens returning from a trip abroad turned into a nightmare Tuesday as a community in northern Germany learned 16 of its high schoolers were aboard a flight which crashed into the French Alps.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/german-plane-crash/students-crash-n329356

Heartbreaking...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 08:30:52 PM
+1

Maybe the old guys should chime in. Is this more than it used to be?

Based on the wikipedia list of air incidents, it looks like it's quite a bit less than it used to be.  Probably because of safety standards and lessons learned from each crash. 

The perception of more incidents is probably due to social media and information overload...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2015, 08:35:04 PM
Crazy.  One pilot was locked out of the cockpit and the other unresponsive.  I wonder if we'll ever find out wth happened in there!
What's crazy is that every iPhone has a find me feature and every subway station has video surveillance, and yet on 8-9 figure flying machines we have neither.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 08:37:27 PM
What's crazy is that every iPhone has a find me feature and every subway station has video surveillance, and yet on 8-9 figure flying machines we have neither.

Blame unions

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/malaysia-370-cockpit-camera/
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 09:04:09 PM
Based on the wikipedia list of air incidents, it looks like it's quite a bit less than it used to be.  Probably because of safety standards and lessons learned from each crash. 

The perception of more incidents is probably due to social media and information overload...
It's actually a lot safer than that, while the number of incidents has gone down considerably, the number of flights has gone up exponentially, so percentage-wise the number of incidents has plummeted.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 09:07:11 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/03/25/world/europe/26PLANE5-hp/26PLANE5-hp-master315.jpg)

Now that is one beat up CVR... :o
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 09:26:08 PM
It's actually a lot safer than that, while the number of incidents has gone down considerably, the number of flights has gone up exponentially, so percentage-wise the number of incidents has plummeted.

Right. And if you look at the incidents, the rate of survival is much higher now. It's actually amazing how safe air travel is now...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Hershelsdeals on March 25, 2015, 09:45:45 PM
Oh great, the Pilot was Malaysian! Anning Wong being named as pilot of doomed #Germanwings plane #4U9525 https://t.co/8ViYUOiU5S
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 10:05:04 PM
Oh great, the Pilot was Malaysian! Anning Wong being named as pilot of doomed #Germanwings plane #4U9525 https://t.co/8ViYUOiU5S
Something is very weird, according to here (https://vatstats.net/pilots/1107082) he's a pilot for Air Baltic...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 10:25:33 PM
Also where did you get that he's Malaysian? Looks Chinese to me...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 10:25:54 PM
Here's a video about the A320 cockpit door unlocking procedure. 



Can lead to the conclusion that this was a malicious act...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: sillypainter on March 25, 2015, 10:44:50 PM
Here's a video about the A320 cockpit door unlocking procedure. 



Can lead to the conclusion that this was a malicious act...

Wow. Interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 10:47:42 PM
Here's a video about the A320 cockpit door unlocking procedure. 



Can lead to the conclusion that this was a malicious act...

Based on this video, the only way this can NOT be a malicious act is if the pilot in the cockpit was incapacitated and nobody in the crew remembered the emergency code.  They'll know that based on the buzzer sounds in the cockpit.   
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 10:54:25 PM
While pilot suicide seems the most likely now it still sounds kinda strange. If I were a suicidal pilot wanting to take a plane down I would probably just put it into a roll and have it hit the ground in 30 seconds (sort of like EgyptAir Flight 990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990)) before anyone knew what hit them. Why did he put the plane into a controlled 8 minute descent giving the pilot and crew plenty of time to try and stop him?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 11:03:03 PM
While pilot suicide seems the most likely now it still sounds kinda strange. If I were a suicidal pilot wanting to take a plane down I would probably just put it into a roll and have it hit the ground in 30 seconds (sort of like EgyptAir Flight 990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990)) before anyone knew what hit them. Why did he put the plane into a controlled 8 minute descent giving the pilot and crew plenty of time to try and stop him?

I believe the Airbus system wouldn't allow that.  Such an attempt would get overridden...

Source:  The Interwebz
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 11:07:47 PM
I believe the Airbus system wouldn't allow that.  Such an attempt would get overridden...

Source:  The Interwebz
I believe you are correct, you just completed the last piece of the puzzle for me (EgytAir 990 was a Boeing 767)
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 25, 2015, 11:10:02 PM
I believe you are correct, you just completed the last piece of the puzzle for me (EgytAir 990 was a Boeing 767)

And Air France was the opposite problem.  The pilot was pulling back on the joystick during a stall without realizing what he was doing until it was too late.  They've probably mitigated that scenario as well since then.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 25, 2015, 11:20:57 PM
And Air France was the opposite problem.  The pilot was pulling back on the joystick during a stall without realizing what he was doing until it was too late.  They've probably mitigated that scenario as well since then.
Air France was an Airbus but that fight has a problem with a faulty sensor so the plane switched to manual.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 26, 2015, 07:48:19 AM
Not looking good:


Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: DP7 on March 26, 2015, 08:29:48 AM

Not looking good:



What would be good at this point?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JayR on March 26, 2015, 08:31:07 AM
What would be good at this point?
Rather have a mechanical issue than a suicidal pilot
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Emkay on March 26, 2015, 08:40:38 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/germanwings-flight-9525-crashed-with-only-1-pilot-in-cockpit/
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 26, 2015, 08:45:55 AM
Rather have a mechanical issue than a suicidal pilot

+1
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 26, 2015, 08:46:52 AM
Germanwings Co-Pilot Deliberately Crashed Airbus Jet, French Prosecutor Says

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/germanwings-crash.html?referrer=
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 26, 2015, 01:14:47 PM
Why is it that in the year 2015, there is no live video of the cockpit being transmitted (and recorded) to an air traffic controller base? Wouldn't this end all speculation about what happened, and give a clear picture?

Also, why are there no bathrooms in the cockpit? Wouldn't it be better if pilots did not need to exit the cockpit for any reason during the flight?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 26, 2015, 01:17:50 PM
Why is it that in the year 2015, there is no live video of the cockpit being transmitted (and recorded) to an air traffic controller base? Wouldn't this end all speculation about what happened, and give a clear picture?

Also, why are there no bathrooms in the cockpit? Wouldn't it be better if pilots did not need to exit the cockpit for any reason during the flight?
Money.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: solls108 on March 26, 2015, 01:19:28 PM
There should be live video cameras as well as a control that should allow the plane to be controlled remotely such as a a UAV.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 01:20:16 PM
Why is it that in the year 2015, there is no live video of the cockpit being transmitted (and recorded) to an air traffic controller base? Wouldn't this end all speculation about what happened, and give a clear picture?

Also, why are there no bathrooms in the cockpit? Wouldn't it be better if pilots did not need to exit the cockpit for any reason during the flight?
Why is it that in the year 2015, there is no live video of every operating room being transmitted (and recorded) to a medical malpractice investigator base? Wouldn't this end all speculation about what happened, and give a clear picture?

Or insert ANY profession where there is a possibility of human mess-ups (namely any profession involving humans).

Do you have any idea how much data that would take to record, transmit, and store from every cockpit in the air?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 01:20:58 PM
There should be live video cameras as well as a control that should allow the plane to be controlled remotely such as a a UAV.
Let the plane be controlled from the ground, now what could POSSIBLY go wrong? ???
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Lou Bob on March 26, 2015, 01:23:35 PM
Money.
time for them to get into the MS game   :D
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 26, 2015, 01:23:41 PM
Do you have any idea how much data that would take to record, transmit, and store from every cockpit in the air?
No, how much. More than storing a picture of every mail piece or package that goes through USPS?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 26, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
time for them to get into the MS game   :D
Don't pay the pilots, just let them MS for an hour at each city they land at.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 01:25:51 PM
No, how much. More than storing a picture of every mail piece or package that goes through USPS?
Video is way more then still images and that's just recording and storing, live streaming the  data from anywhere in world would be a fortune and would demand a whole new infrastructure.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 26, 2015, 01:26:04 PM
There should be live video cameras as well as a control that should allow the plane to be controlled remotely such as a a UAV.

hahaha, clearly you need to watch a little more 24 and Homeland.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Emkay on March 26, 2015, 01:27:43 PM
as well as a control that should allow the plane to be controlled remotely such as a a UAV.
terrible idea
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Emkay on March 26, 2015, 01:28:09 PM
n storing a picture of every mail piece or package that goes through USPS
they do?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 26, 2015, 01:28:39 PM
Video is way more then still images and that's just recording and storing, live streaming the  data from anywhere in world would be a fortune and would demand a whole new infrastructure.
So each pilot gets an Ipad?  :P
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 26, 2015, 01:34:00 PM
Why is it that in the year 2015, there is no live video of every operating room being transmitted (and recorded) to a medical malpractice investigator base? Wouldn't this end all speculation about what happened, and give a clear picture?

Or insert ANY profession where there is a possibility of human mess-ups (namely any profession involving humans).

Do you have any idea how much data that would take to record, transmit, and store from every cockpit in the air?

Meh. Poor comparison.

How often do you hear of surgeons deliberately killing patients? How often is malpractice deliberate? A video would only be of benefit to an ambulance-chasing lawyer. Sounds like it would cause more damage than good.

If we had live video feeds of aircraft cockpits, we would know exactly what happened in the last three air disasters.

Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 01:37:48 PM
Meh. Poor comparison.

How often do you hear of surgeons deliberately killing patients? How often is malpractice deliberate? A video would only be of benefit to an ambulance-chasing lawyer. Sounds like it would cause more damage than good.

If we had live video feeds of aircraft cockpits, we would know exactly what happened in the last three air disasters.


How often is a plane crash the result of deliberate action by the pilot?

Planes have a hard enough time maintaining communication over some parts of the Atlantic in bad weather. Live streaming video would take making entirely new infrastructure...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 26, 2015, 01:43:51 PM
And what if we had video footage confirming without a doubt that the co-pilot intentionally took down the plane, how would that help us?

We'd be informed, but who said this guy wouldn't have passed their psych screening?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 26, 2015, 01:44:38 PM
How often is a plane crash the result of deliberate action by the pilot?

Planes have a hard enough time maintaining communication over some parts of the Atlantic in bad weather. Live streaming video would take making entirely new infrastructure...

I don't know enough about live streaming infastructure to argue with you. However, there is certainly no reason why they can't at least RECORD video the same way they record audio. Instead of saying "he was breathing, so he must have been conscious", you would actually be able to see what happened.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 26, 2015, 01:45:55 PM
And what if we had video footage confirming without a doubt that the co-pilot intentionally took down the plane, how would that help us?

We'd be informed, but who said this guy wouldn't have passed their psych screening?
Everyone could sue claiming they should have had better test.  :)
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 26, 2015, 01:46:53 PM
Everyone could sue claiming they should have had better test.  :)

Victim's families will always sue and win FWIU. If this is just about giving them grounds for claims I think we can find cheaper methods.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 01:48:41 PM
And what if we had video footage confirming without a doubt that the co-pilot intentionally took down the plane, how would that help us?

We'd be informed, but who said this guy wouldn't have passed their psych screening?
+1
That would be a big expense and it won't even help with saving any lives. If you want them to invest have them invest in better screening...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 26, 2015, 01:56:40 PM
And what if we had video footage confirming without a doubt that the co-pilot intentionally took down the plane, how would that help us?

We'd be informed, but who said this guy wouldn't have passed their psych screening?

אינה דומה שמיעה לראיה

Let's face it, do we really know with absolute certainty that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane, or are we going with this theory because it makes the most sense based on the audio recording?

A video can not only reveal WHAT happened, but it can also reveal HOW and sometimes WHY.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 26, 2015, 02:17:27 PM
אינה דומה שמיעה לראיה

Let's face it, do we really know with absolute certainty that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane, or are we going with this theory because it makes the most sense based on the audio recording?

A video can not only reveal WHAT happened, but it can also reveal HOW and sometimes WHY.
It's all cost vs. benefit. How many lives would be saved by installing cameras? How much more information can be learned from video vs. voice recording? Can we spend this money in ways that will save more lives?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: JayR on March 27, 2015, 06:14:39 AM
So each pilot gets an Ipad?  :P
Let's not even think how much slower the airplane WIFI would be if there were 2 ipads live recording ;D
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 27, 2015, 11:45:19 AM
I wonder how http://www.flightradar24.com/ gets their data?

Funny I mentioned them and now (yesterday, actually) flightradar24 has given evidence to the authorities showing the plane went into auto-descent to 100 feet via autopilot.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: zale on March 27, 2015, 12:03:05 PM
Funny I mentioned them and now (yesterday, actually) flightradar24 has given evidence to the authorities showing the plane went into auto-descent to 100 feet via autopilot.

The authorities might be reading DDF  :P

Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ual902 on March 27, 2015, 12:32:40 PM
http://www.flightradar24.com/how-it-works
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 12:37:08 PM
Funny I mentioned them and now (yesterday, actually) flightradar24 has given evidence to the authorities showing the plane went into auto-descent to 100 feet via autopilot.
I was actually wondering, how could FlightRadar now the autopilot was set to 100 ft? The ADS-B broadcasts the autopilot settings?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 27, 2015, 12:39:31 PM
I was actually wondering, how could FlightRadar now the autopilot was set to 100 ft? The ADS-B broadcasts the autopilot settings?

No, but if they recorded a consistent pattern (dropping x feet every x minutes) then it would seem to be auto-pilot. The question is what the guy was doing/thinking at the time...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
No, but if they recorded a consistent pattern (dropping x feet every x minutes) then it would seem to be auto-pilot. The question is what the guy was doing/thinking at the time...
But to know it was set to 100 ft? the plane crashed in terrain that was 2,000-6,000 ft...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ual902 on March 27, 2015, 12:45:50 PM
I was actually wondering, how could FlightRadar now the autopilot was set to 100 ft? The ADS-B broadcasts the autopilot settings?

The "black box" orange box knows exactly what settings the A/P was set and changed too.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 12:46:11 PM
The "black box" orange box knows exactly what settings the A/P was set and changed too.
But they didn't find that one yet...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Dan on March 27, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/index.html

What is a Dr's responsibility if they have a patient they think is too depressed to fly a plane?
Is he allowed to tell the employer? Does he have a duty to do so if he feels he'll put others at harm? Can he be sued for not doing so?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: lunatic on March 27, 2015, 01:25:46 PM
Wow,  how terrible must that doctor feel now. Responsible for all the deaths
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: AsherO on March 27, 2015, 01:59:32 PM
But they didn't find that one yet...

FWIU they found the box but the memory card was missing (which sounds ridiculous BTW), please CMIIW.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 02:05:14 PM
FWIU they found the box but the memory card was missing (which sounds ridiculous BTW), please CMIIW.
Not so ridiculous if you consider it was smashed into a mountain at 700 MPH.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 27, 2015, 02:16:49 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/index.html

What is a Dr's responsibility if they have a patient they think is too depressed to fly a plane?
Is he allowed to tell the employer? Does he have a duty to do so if he feels he'll put others at harm? Can he be sued for not doing so?

There are too many jurisdictions involved to have a comprehensive answer.     
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
Not so ridiculous if you consider it was smashed into a mountain at 700 MPH.
Isn't the whole point that it should withstand any crash ?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Toasted on March 27, 2015, 03:03:03 PM
Is the company legally liable for a deliberate act by one of its employees?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Dan on March 27, 2015, 03:08:52 PM
Is the company legally liable for a deliberate act by one of its employees?
If it was negligent in vetting the employee, sure.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 03:17:58 PM
Isn't the whole point that it should withstand any crash ?
That would be asking for a bit much...

From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder#Specifications) article:
Quote
Currently, EUROCAE specifies that a recorder must be able to withstand an acceleration of 3400 g (33 km/s) for 6.5 milliseconds. This is roughly equivalent to an impact velocity of 270 knots (310 mph) and a deceleration or crushing distance of 450 cm
I guess we should be thankful the voice recorded survived, albeit barely... (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=50710.msg1101381#msg1101381)
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: eliteflyer on March 27, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
If it was negligent in vetting the employee, sure.
I'm not a transport attorney, but I'm pretty sure the Montreal Convention and applicable regulatory framework provide for liability and compensation in the event of death or injury (in a fixed amount) even if negligence by the carrier is not shown. That's not to say that families couldnt alsp pursue a separate claim of negligence against the airline or its parent based on negligence.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Dan on March 27, 2015, 04:19:17 PM
I'm not a transport attorney, but I'm pretty sure the Montreal Convention and applicable regulatory framework provide for liability and compensation in the event of death or injury (in a fixed amount) even if negligence by the carrier is not shown.
Indeed. But this may wind up going far beyond that.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ual902 on March 27, 2015, 04:22:32 PM
Indeed. But this may wind up going far beyond that.

Looks like its headed to the Doctors:

Revealed: TWO doctors ruled Germanwings co-pilot was unfit for work on day of the disaster - but he kept it secret from airline
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: alpicone on March 27, 2015, 04:39:26 PM

That would be asking for a bit much...

From the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder#Specifications) article:I guess we should be thankful the voice recorded survived, albeit barely...
 (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=50710.msg1101381#msg1101381)

The only reason they "know" so much about the cause of the crash is because of the data recorder. You would think there would be streaming the data via satellite by now.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: aradisc on March 27, 2015, 04:49:03 PM
I guess we should be thankful the voice recorded survived, albeit barely...
 (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=50710.msg1101381#msg1101381)

I wouldn't say barely. The recording is kept in the cylinder part, and it looks to be in remarkably great shape. Especially considering the circumstances.

Diagram of black box design: https://cafeberitaonline.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/black-box1.jpg
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: aradisc on March 27, 2015, 04:52:52 PM
You would think there would be streaming the data via satellite by now.

All of the suggestions of streaming data or video wouldn't prevent any crashes. The only circumstances I can think of where it would help anything is MH370, but only to find the plane, not save anyone.

This one was not a huge mystery, the NY Times learned of the pilot lockout within 48hrs.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 27, 2015, 05:00:43 PM
I wouldn't say barely. The recording is kept in the cylinder part, and it looks to be in remarkably great shape. Especially considering the circumstances.
True and as I said it is remarkable that it survived a crash 2 times as strong as it it was designed for, though I gotta say that is the most beat up Recorder I've ever seen...
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: yitzy93 on March 28, 2015, 07:45:28 PM
New reports that the co-pilot was dumped by his girlfriend the day before he crashed the jet.
Cold blooded murderer!  :( http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/28/germanwings-co-pilot-dumped-by-girlfriend-day-before-crash-being-treated-for/
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: chff on March 28, 2015, 09:12:55 PM
But to know it was set to 100 ft? the plane crashed in terrain that was 2,000-6,000 ft...
From the raw ADS-B data, it show that he set the altitude for 97ft, but their was a mountain at 2000/6000 ft so it crashed there....
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 28, 2015, 09:15:32 PM
From the raw ADS-B data, it show that he set the altitude for 97ft, but their was a mountain at 2000/6000 ft so it crashed there....
That was my question, since when does the ADS-B broadcast A/P settings?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: chff on March 28, 2015, 09:21:11 PM
That was my question, since when does the ADS-B broadcast A/P settings?
Flightradar24 posted that reviewing the data after the crash they found out this info and passed it on to the BEA and made it public 2 days later
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 28, 2015, 10:33:05 PM
Flightradar24 posted that reviewing the data after the crash they found out this info and passed it on to the BEA and made it public 2 days later
Where did they get this data from? AFAIK it isn't broadcasted by the ADS-B.

ETA: guess I was wrong...

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: eliteflyer on March 28, 2015, 10:55:00 PM
If it was negligent in vetting the employee, sure.
Families could also pursue a theory of negligence for not having a 2 crew-member policy, particularly if they should have been on notice following similar suspected incidents in the past involving other carriers.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: eliteflyer on March 28, 2015, 11:06:52 PM
There are too many jurisdictions involved to have a comprehensive answer.     
how many jurisdictions? German doctor treating German patient.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: YankyDoodle on March 28, 2015, 11:39:32 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/index.html

What is a Dr's responsibility if they have a patient they think is too depressed to fly a plane?
Is he allowed to tell the employer? Does he have a duty to do so if he feels he'll put others at harm? Can he be sued for not doing so?
Obviously it depends on the law where the dr practices, but in America the precedent is set that the psychiatrist has a duty to protect someone whom he/she believes a patient has both ability and intent to harm (see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California). Complicated stuff no doubt about it, I'm sure this will spark change in how privacy is handled for medical patients with people's lives in their hands.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: eliteflyer on March 28, 2015, 11:48:50 PM
Complicated stuff no doubt about it, I'm sure this will spark change in discussion about how privacy is handled for medical patients with people's lives in their hands.
FTFY. Don't expect medical privacy laws to change so quickly.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ual902 on March 29, 2015, 04:28:47 PM
Wonder if any of the passengers took a video on their smart phone while all this was happening and they find the smart phone in the wreckage? I hope the recovery teams are checking smart phones and cameras.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: TimT on March 29, 2015, 04:33:36 PM
Wonder if any of the passengers took a video on their smart phone while all this was happening and they find the smart phone in the wreckage? I hope the recovery teams are checking smart phones and cameras.
They're probably checking everyone's social media accounts. Maybe someone posted while it was happening.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: yitzy93 on March 29, 2015, 06:55:58 PM
They're probably checking everyone's social media accounts. Maybe someone posted while it was happening.

Highly doubt there's WiFi or any other connectivity on such a flight...
And if yes it would have long been viral, through friends etc.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Jkhein on March 31, 2015, 02:27:17 PM
Wonder if any of the passengers took a video on their smart phone while all this was happening and they find the smart phone in the wreckage? I hope the recovery teams are checking smart phones and cameras.
Yup
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Marco Polo on March 31, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
Seems likeLH designated 300 million to deal with this.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 31, 2015, 02:48:24 PM
Yup
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/
Nuts!
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2015, 02:51:21 PM
How is it that my cell phone cracks when I drop it, but a cell phone survived a 500mph crash?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on March 31, 2015, 02:53:50 PM
How is it that my cell phone cracks when I drop it, but a cell phone survived a 500mph crash?
Most have been a Nokia :))

But seriously, who said the phone survived? Maybe the video had to be recovered from a smashed SD card?
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: avrumy22 on March 31, 2015, 03:03:52 PM
How is it that my cell phone cracks when I drop it, but a cell phone survived a 500mph crash?

if the  black box is indestructible, why dont they make the whole plane from that stuff?  :P
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: chucksterace on March 31, 2015, 03:10:23 PM

How is it that my cell phone cracks when I drop it, but a cell phone survived a 500mph crash?

Otterbox.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Something Fishy on March 31, 2015, 03:25:17 PM
You'd be surprised how resilient some memory cards are. I've put some through the wash and they're working fine to this day.
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: ual902 on March 31, 2015, 04:39:39 PM
Wonder if any of the passengers took a video on their smart phone while all this was happening and they find the smart phone in the wreckage? I hope the recovery teams are checking smart phones and cameras.

Video captures terror aboard doomed Germanwings flight:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/world/video-shows-terror-aboard-doomed-germanwings-flight-article-1.2168509
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Chapshnell on March 31, 2015, 05:19:58 PM
now LH finds a 2009 email showing he admits to being depressed  :o
Title: Re: Germanwings flight 4U-9525 crashes in France
Post by: Achas Veachas on April 03, 2015, 07:18:52 AM
So now they found the second black box, the Flight Data Recorder:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/03/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/