Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 12:41:05 PM
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 12:42:01 PM
My friend asked me if he can spend ( and pay the bill ) on a cash back card, then refund the transaction and keep the CB/points/miles? (I heard this works on AA cards because the miles leave the bank to the AAdvantage account the moment you pay.T/F? )I would advise against doing anything like this.
Additionally, while maybe a little different, i believe two brothers got jail time for doing something like this.
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 12:42:45 PM
I would advise against doing anything like this.So you saying it works but they catch on...
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 12:43:22 PM
So you saying it works but they catch on...I am not saying it will for sure work, i am saying it is not worth the risk.
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 12:44:37 PM
Additionally, while maybe a little different, i believe two brothers got jail time for doing something like this.
I read that story... it makes me kind of scared to do the nosdstram method
Post by: MosheD on July 22, 2015, 12:45:19 PM
Regular MS methods would work, he can decide if it's worth it.
Iirc there was/is a DDFr named HelpMe who is very pro cb, you can try finding him for more info
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 12:45:47 PM
JMHO.
Post by: MosheD on July 22, 2015, 12:45:59 PM
I read that story... it makes me kind of scared to do the nosdstram methodLink?
Post by: Dan on July 22, 2015, 12:48:00 PM
(I heard this works on AA cards because the miles leave the bank to the AAdvantage account the moment you pay.T/F? )Good way to get banned from AAdvantage
Post by: AsherO on July 22, 2015, 12:54:07 PM
Link?
https://www.fbi.gov/seattle/press-releases/2012/brothers-who-defrauded-nordstrom-with-online-reward-scheme-plead-guilty-to-wire-fraud
Google "Chiu Brothers" for more info.
Post by: clear thinker on July 22, 2015, 12:54:43 PM
I read that story... it makes me kind of scared to do the nosdstram methodCare to share more?
Post by: AsherO on July 22, 2015, 01:04:56 PM
Care to share more?
See my post right above yours.
Post by: shoobi on July 22, 2015, 02:01:01 PM
Post by: coralsnake on July 22, 2015, 02:04:32 PM
My friend asked me if he can spend ( and pay the bill ) on a cash back card, then refund the transaction and keep the CB/points/miles? (I heard this works on AA cards because the miles leave the bank to the AAdvantage account the moment you pay.T/F? )If you want to steal money from a bank, there are more discreet ways.
Post by: shoobi on July 22, 2015, 02:07:50 PM
I can get unlimited cash advances on any debit card. It doesn't matter the balance; usually you can get around 10K, maybe more if the time is right. All you do is go into the bank wearing a ski mask and hand a note to the teller saying "I want all the cash". 99 times out of 100, she'll just fill up a bag for you, no card swipe needed!
You do have to make sure to get out fast, though. Once word spreads, the cops try to shut you down.
Post by: Redbull3 on July 22, 2015, 02:14:34 PM
Simple yet brilliant.
Post by: Redbull3 on July 22, 2015, 02:15:59 PM
https://www.fbi.gov/seattle/press-releases/2012/brothers-who-defrauded-nordstrom-with-online-reward-scheme-plead-guilty-to-wire-fraud
Google "Chiu Brothers" for more info.
This is considered "wire fraud"? I don't quite understand how what they did was illegal (I'm not saying unethical... illegal).
Post by: SPLP on July 22, 2015, 02:54:11 PM
This is considered "wire fraud"? I don't quite understand how what they did was illegal (I'm not saying unethical... illegal).
Sure it was illegal ( do not even need to Google )-- they knowingly knew and had intent to defraud - how can theY order 23miliilon and not know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate
"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange,".......
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 02:59:28 PM
I read that story... it makes me kind of scared to do the nosdstram methodaside from the fact that its stealing and prohibited by jewish law?
o sorry, this isnt ethics nor halacha thread
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:05:05 PM
aside from the fact that its stealing and prohibited by jewish law?
o sorry, this isnt ethics nor halacha thread
buying and returning is in their policy. buying on order to return is forsure grey and maybe more . on what bases do you call it stealing?
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 03:06:33 PM
buying and returning is in their policy. buying on order to return is forsure grey and maybe more . on what bases do you call it stealing?if you are buying with the intention to return, solely to get the cash back, are you not able to figure that out? who is paying you that cash back?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 22, 2015, 03:11:24 PM
Google "Chiu Brothers" for more info.Please leave my friends out of this.
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:13:31 PM
if you are buying with the intention to return, solely to get the cash back, are you not able to figure that out? who is paying you that cash back?
When you MS at target or any form of MS someone is always paying the cash back! The Question is it is lawful under their terms and Jewish Law
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 03:15:53 PM
When you MS at target or any form of MS someone is always paying the cash back! The Question is it is lawful under their terms and Jewish LawYou get CB for a purchase. If you purchase with the intent to return and keep the CB, that is not what is intended.
They are not giving away money.
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:18:45 PM
You get CB for a purchase. If you purchase with the intent to return and keep the CB, that is not what is intended.
They are not giving away money.
What is MS if not giving away money. not to mention that it is also not intented
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 03:19:56 PM
When you MS at target or any form of MS someone is always paying the cash back! The Question is it is lawful under their terms and Jewish Lawin most methods at least that i know of, someone is gaining and therefore paying the cash back.
with target, they created that system that allows for abuse. they imposed limits. forget MS, what about if you really used that as some sort of bill paying system? they allow that.
but what you are discussing in another level
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 03:20:00 PM
What is MS if not giving away money. not to mention that it is also not intentedWhen you MS, you are buying something and cashing out in a different manner. It is much different than buying and returning.
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 03:21:10 PM
What is MS if not giving away money. not to mention that it is also not intentedlets take the gift card method that many use.
they buy a gift card from staples. staples pays the credit card fee and then chase pays you the UR points. but staples is getting the fee (at least thats how i assume it works) so its worth it to them
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:30:38 PM
When you MS, you are buying something and cashing out in a different manner. It is much different than buying and returning.
How so? buying with intent to cash it elsewhere is just as against chases intention even though it is not explicitly in the T&Cs
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 03:31:58 PM
How so? buying with intent to cash it elsewhere is just as against chases intention even though it is not explicitly in the T&CsWhat do they care what you do with your purchase? As far as they are concerned, you bought something (a GC) and the transaction is done. Anything you chose to do with it is your own thing.
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:37:58 PM
What do they care what you do with your purchase? As far as they are concerned, you bought something (a GC) and the transaction is done. Anything you chose to do with it is your own thing.I guess you are right. but that doesn't mean buying with intent to return is explicitly against policy. I will give you an example . when you buy a few sizes you are buying (at least one of them) with intent to return. Is that also theft?
Post by: Redbull3 on July 22, 2015, 03:41:23 PM
Post by: Redbull3 on July 22, 2015, 03:42:31 PM
Please leave my friends out of this.
Seriously what's your take on this?
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 03:43:10 PM
I guess you are right. but that doesn't mean buying with intent to return is explicitly against policy. I will give you an example . when you buy a few sizes you are buying (at least one of them) with intent to return. Is that also theft?ok allow me to rephrase, in case you couldnt understand the difference
buying with complete intent to return 100% of your order is 1. probably assur, 2. theft if you do it in a way to earn cash back, 3. just wrong
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:44:21 PM
No one is answering my question. Buying with intent to return is wire fraud? Why? Is it purely the dollar amount? This is PGGM on a larger scale. Are we all in trouble?I am answering your Question . That doesnt mean they cant or wont press charges of fraud if we are talking about large scale things.
Great point about PGGM . Marco care to take that one on?
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 03:47:26 PM
ok allow me to rephrase, in case you couldnt understand the difference
buying with complete intent to return 100% of your order is 1. probably assur, 2. theft if you do it in a way to earn cash back, 3. just wrong
So if one includes one thing one is " good"?
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 03:49:20 PM
So if one includes one thing one is " good"?why are you trying to instigate here?
allow me to spell it out. buying even one item so steal cash back is stealing and assur.
you then asked, foolishly, what about ordering different sizes. to that, i needed to spell out that you intend to buy something and arent doing it to steal from the company. but even in that case, returning it intentionally in a way that still earns cash back is stealing
Post by: ADG on July 22, 2015, 04:01:50 PM
why are you trying to instigate here?
allow me to spell it out. buying even one item so steal cash back is stealing and assur.
you then asked, foolishly, what about ordering different sizes. to that, i needed to spell out that you intend to buy something and arent doing it to steal from the company. but even in that case, returning it intentionally in a way that still earns cash back is stealing
My point is that buying with intent to return is not against companies policies. therefor not Assur. wrong or right is for ethical thread remember:)
Post by: Marco Polo on July 22, 2015, 04:03:13 PM
My point is that buying with intent to return is not against companies policies. therefor not Assur. wrong or right is for ethical thread remember:)If you are doing it to earn CB, it is an issue. Case and point in the article ^^.
Post by: dealfinder85 on July 22, 2015, 04:04:53 PM
My point is that buying with intent to return is not against companies policies. therefor not Assur. wrong or right is for ethical thread remember:)-1
Post by: sam i am on July 23, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Please leave my friends out of this.With friends like these... ;)
Post by: shwarmabob on July 23, 2015, 12:30:42 PM
What do they care what you do with your purchase? As far as they are concerned, you bought something (a GC) and the transaction is done. Anything you chose to do with it is your own thing.Chase makes money on it. Staples makes money on it. The bank issuing the GC makes money on it and MS costs you money too. You may find that you get enough value for the money spent and therefore go through the trouble.
Post by: David Smith on July 23, 2015, 01:22:45 PM
How so? buying with intent to cash it elsewhere is just as against chases intention even though it is not explicitly in the T&CsMaintaining a credit card and making purchases with the sole intention of generating points is explicitly prohibited in the T&C's. However, it's not stealing. What's the difference to them if you buy a gc as a gift or to cash out? (Although it can be argued that chase is losing 2% on their 5% categories, which they are willing to sacrifice for the purpose of enticing you to have the card and make other purchases on it, which they are making 2% on. Using it solely for staples can therefore be argued to be the equivalent of making purchases and returning them.)
Post by: rileywiles23 on July 23, 2015, 05:39:33 PM
Post by: Jm1248 on July 23, 2015, 10:20:46 PM
Why is this whole idea any diff. then Pggm ?+1
Or than loading money onto serve/redcard and withdrawing to bank account?
Post by: Tzadik Nistar on July 24, 2015, 12:24:15 AM
Why is this whole idea any diff. then Pggm ?Pggm is also a grey area that's why there are still people that prefer gift cards
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 24, 2015, 12:29:53 AM
Seriously what's your take on this?If you are serious about the MS game then I hope you have a competent lawyer to answer these questions.
Post by: Super Speed on July 24, 2015, 01:56:04 AM
Why is this whole idea any diff. then Pggm ?Why you assuming that it is?
Post by: Jm1248 on July 24, 2015, 01:57:52 AM
Why you assuming that it is?Because many people are vehemently opposed to this and no one seems to take issue with pggm
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 24, 2015, 01:59:54 AM
Because many people are vehemently opposed to this and no one seems to take issue with pggmDo you know anyone that has went to jail for doing pggm?
Post by: Jm1248 on July 24, 2015, 02:05:51 AM
Do you know anyone that has went to jail for doing pggm?I'm talking about from an ethical standpoint
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 24, 2015, 02:07:29 AM
I'm talking about from an ethical standpointThen try here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12784.0
Post by: Redbull3 on July 24, 2015, 10:38:15 AM
If you are serious about the MS game then I hope you have a competent lawyer to answer these questions.
Lol well what would your lawyer say? Is PGGM legal or illegal? If legal, why is it different than this case.
Post by: shoobi on July 24, 2015, 10:40:24 AM
Post by: lunatic on July 24, 2015, 10:44:50 AM