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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ShlockDoc on March 16, 2016, 02:07:25 PM

Title: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 16, 2016, 02:07:25 PM
Well, nobody else got this started so here goes.

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2016/03/16/yeshiva-technology-records-raid/81808252/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on March 16, 2016, 02:16:24 PM
maybe make a new thread? i saw pics of them in Monroe as well
Well, nobody else got this started so here goes.

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2016/03/16/yeshiva-technology-records-raid/81808252/

ht? :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 16, 2016, 02:47:31 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160316/01ebf07e3af6d506f47f411ed0a3ec6b.jpg)

FBI plane?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: username on March 16, 2016, 03:05:37 PM
probably.
OBR Leasing
https://medium.com/@MinneapoliSam/fleet-of-government-aircraft-flying-secret-missions-over-u-s-cities-84cbdf57dfbb#.e22p12sdo
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thejerseyguy on March 16, 2016, 03:24:34 PM
that plane is over lakewood near westgate now
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Venilla on March 16, 2016, 03:37:12 PM
Any word of what their עבירה is?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: username on March 16, 2016, 03:38:04 PM
that plane is over lakewood near westgate now
-1
Still over Spring Valley.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thejerseyguy on March 16, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
-1
Still over Spring Valley.
Sorry your right the picture of tracking  starts from Lakewood, was looking wrong way.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 16, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
Any word of what their עבירה is?

The article implies fraudulently-obtained Gov't technology/education grants. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shwarmabob on March 16, 2016, 03:49:45 PM
Don't worry they will get to Lakewood too. Tell me that you are  :o
Sad story
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2016, 03:53:23 PM
When will they learn? Why can't they just work with the system instead of abuse it? Reminds me of cunin, the arrogance is ridiculous
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: A3 on March 16, 2016, 03:58:39 PM
Best of luck.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 16, 2016, 04:46:04 PM
that plane is over lakewood near westgate now
That is a tiny airstrip in Jackson not quite near Westgate-almost at Jackson municipal complex
-1
Still over Spring Valley.
Now heading back over coast but it is a new Flightradar path.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: coralsnake on March 16, 2016, 04:57:13 PM
Any word of what their עבירה is?
E-Rate.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: unavailable on March 16, 2016, 07:13:24 PM
E-Rate.
Anyone be what this Erate thing is?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 16, 2016, 07:16:34 PM
Does no one read anything besides headlines anymore?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Centro on March 16, 2016, 07:30:20 PM
When will they learn? Why can't they just work with the system instead of abuse it? Reminds me of cunin, the arrogance is ridiculous
::)???
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 16, 2016, 07:41:28 PM
When will they learn? Why can't they just work with the system instead of abuse it? Reminds me of cunin, the arrogance is ridiculous

Can we please NOT get into this. This could be awful popcorn.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 16, 2016, 09:19:22 PM
Not shocking at all, this was obviously going to happen.

http://forward.com/news/175087/orthodox-town-of-lakewood-grabs-bigger-computer-su/#todayilearned|thenewyorkgod

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3f0pir/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 16, 2016, 10:03:53 PM
Unfortunately they've had a lot of time since those reports to cover their tracks.  Hopefully not good enough...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2016, 11:09:09 PM
Look, take WIC... now if a newly delivered mother abuses the finances on wic but buys LEGIT food... the feds arent going to bust your ass. But if you claim to have 19 kids and sell the WIC benefits to buy crack... i'd imagine the chances are stronger of getting arrested.

Use the system, I didnt create it, it exists, I pay taxes.. such is life.

Why abuse it ? its like having a <redacted> at home and you go out and pay an ugly <redacted> !!

They could have found a way to work with the system or pass on the grants. They listened to their yetzer harah.. and I am by no means righteous but dont feed me such BS on how they felt they were doing the right thing.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe tore in to Shas for supporting oslo for $ for yeshivot saying such money is so dirty, you cannot even use it to buy toilets for a yeshiva.

JAEEZ, how sad is it, from a generation that held america as medinah shel chesed to a generation that takes a legit program and abuses it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: efflpetzel on March 17, 2016, 01:09:30 AM
Not shocking at all, this was obviously going to happen.

http://forward.com/news/175087/orthodox-town-of-lakewood-grabs-bigger-computer-su/#todayilearned|thenewyorkgod

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3f0pir/
Omg just spent the last 30 min reading the reddit link, oh wow
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: tzifanya54 on March 17, 2016, 01:36:38 AM
No, do not delete it. It had to be said.
U took care of that!  ;D
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Freddie on March 17, 2016, 01:37:58 AM
I removed it out of respect for the person I was quoting since he deleted his post.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 01:40:21 AM
I removed it out of respect for the person I was quoting since he deleted his post.
Thanks.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 01:46:45 AM
Unfortunately they've had a lot of time since those reports to cover their tracks.  Hopefully not good enough...
Those two Jewish boys in your profile picture would be proud of you. Down with the Hasids, those backwards Zhidden.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 08:34:40 AM
Those two Jewish boys in your profile picture would be proud of you. Down with the Hasids, those backwards Zhidden.

I think you misunderstood.  Down with Chassidic criminals.  And in fact, down with MO criminals, down with Conservative, reform, reconstructionist criminals, down with Christian criminals, down with Muslim criminals, atheist criminals etc. etc.   Do you not agree?


Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: grodnoking on March 17, 2016, 09:01:00 AM


I think you misunderstood.  Down with criminals.  Do you not agree?

FTFY
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 09:06:31 AM

FTFY

Agreed.  That's why I don't understand the invective and name calling.  Freddie and David Smith are mad that I hope these criminals get what's coming to them?  I don't get it...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on March 17, 2016, 09:23:08 AM
Agreed.  That's why I don't understand the invective and name calling.  Freddie and David Smith are mad that I hope these criminals get what's coming to them?  I don't get it...
maybe they consider the accused to be their "brothers"   So its vry easy to hope they get away with it
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 10:25:08 AM
Agreed.  That's why I don't understand the invective and name calling.  Freddie and David Smith are mad that I hope these criminals get what's coming to them?  I don't get it...

Just because someone might be a criminal doesn't mean you wanna throw the book at them.
If your cousin did something wrong, do you want them to get the maximum sentence?
Or maybe just enough to learn heir lesson, if that much?

But anyways, who knows if they're guilty or not, or what their intentions were?

Maybe thy found a loophole that makes it legal (yet still immoral).
Maybe they used the money to save their school from shutting down?

Again this doesn't excuse their actions but it's still deplorable to say what you have said about other Jews. You have your damned coexist tag line to get attention for supposedly caring about the world, but if you can't care for your own, your synpathy is not worth a damn. In fact in your case, as you have proven time and agin, it simply means that you're a self-hating Jew so it's easy to like anyone else more.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 10:32:27 AM
Again this doesn't excuse their actions but it's still deplorable to say what you have said about other Jews. You have your damned coexist tag line to get attention for supposedly caring about the world, but if you can't care for your own, your synpathy is not worth a damn. In fact in your case, as you have proven time and agin, it simply means that you're a self-hating Jew so it's easy to like anyone else more.

Link?



Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chulent613 on March 17, 2016, 10:35:21 AM
Just because it seems that something fishy is going on I'm not convinced that it's nearly as bad as it sounds.
It's possible that being there are a lot of new Jewish schools / buildings they can get lots of funding for low voltage wiring that can cost lots more then some established public school in Newark buying a few extra computers.
Correct me if I'm way off.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on March 17, 2016, 10:56:38 AM
Not shocking at all, this was obviously going to happen.

http://forward.com/news/175087/orthodox-town-of-lakewood-grabs-bigger-computer-su/#todayilearned|thenewyorkgod

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3f0pir/

i got stuck in the comments. my fave:

Quote
[–]SaxifrageRussel 921 points 7 months ago*
Here's how it goes:
Secular - not religious, loves Seinfeld, eats latkes, might use some Yiddish.
Reform - goes to Temple, most of the service is in English, almost never keep kosher. Celebrate the High Holy Days and Hannukah.
Conservative- may or may not keep kosher, service is almost all Hebrew, all prayers are in Hebrew, usually celebrate most holidays
Orthodox - kosher, follows more rules, no touching opposite sex non-family. Goes to temple a lot.
Hasidic - <language redacted by mod> crazies.
Edit: Not all Hasids are <language redacted by mod> crazy. But wearing that getup in summer is regular crazy.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: lubaby on March 17, 2016, 11:04:19 AM
i got stuck in the comments. my fave:
And then you get the breakdown of the average crowd we have here   ::)

Quote
[–]hibijee1 535 points 7 months ago*
Haha, well put. But you forgot that regular "hasidics" are crazy-lite, meaning there are degrees of crazy Hasidic.

There's the hippy breslev hassidic, relatively tame. They play a lot of music, and dance. They are generally a very happy bunch.

Then chabad, also a very happy bunch. Some strict ones can be crazy, but most are 'moderates' that are actually really charitable and open to non-Jews, as well as secular Jews (both of which are seen as one and the same by Charedim.)

Edit:
After Chabad, it gets crazy.
Charedim: despised by the majority in Israel. They don't contribute much, and leech off welfare. The most ridiculous part about it is that until very recently they were exempt from compulsory military service.. They actually viewed themselves as doing gods work and as such secular people should be thanking them for doing their "part" in national security (this is their level of delusion). These are the types of people who live in secluded areas like the ones described in the article.

Then you really go off the deep end when you talk about satmar Hasidim (shudders) or the batshit crazy, theocratic neturei karta.

Satmar (white stockings for men, big round furry hats) . Very isolationist, very, very strict religious rules (many have an entirely separate kitchen for Passover that they only use two weeks of the year)
They do not usually leech of welfare, unlike the previously described groups, Satmar often have a lot of old money in their group, mainly from gold and real estate. They are usually very white/ginger, many can trace their lineage back to a few small European villages. Inbreeding was pretty common with them until not so long ago when they were educated about the genetic diseases that ran rampant in their circles.

I won't even describe Neturei Karta because they are just the fringe of the fringe, basically theocrats who are full of hate. They are the only ones who can be legitimately compared to WBC.

There are many levels of hassidic crazy.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 11:10:11 AM
Agreed.  That's why I don't understand the invective and name calling.  Freddie and David Smith are mad that I hope these criminals get what's coming to them?  I don't get it...
How come if I tell Dan the Jewish kids in his profile picture would be proud of him; he'd be happy. If you tell me the Jews in my profile picture would be proud of me, I'd be happy. I tell you the Jewish boys in your profile pic would be proud of you, and you get insulted. I don't get it.....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on March 17, 2016, 11:13:27 AM
And then you get the breakdown of the average crowd we have here   ::)

oh em gee serious alol-ing here  ;D

FTR Satmar leeches plenty. here is a quote from the KJ page in Wikipedia:

Quote
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than five-eighths of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.[4] A 2011 New York Times report noted that, despite the town's very high statistical poverty rates, "It has no slums or homeless people. No one who lives there is shabbily dressed or has to go hungry. Crime is virtually nonexistent."
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 11:18:16 AM
How come if I tell Dan the Jewish kids in his profile picture would be proud of him; he'd be happy. If you tell me the Jews in my profile picture would be proud of me, I'd be happy. I tell you the Jewish boys in your profile pic would be proud of you, and you get insulted. I don't get it.....

Um, that didn't insult me.  What left me more confused than insulted was the comment that you deleted (I've included it below to remind you).   In all sincerity, can you please explain the rage?  Why is it bad to hope that criminals not get away with their crimes irrespective of their religion.

(http://i.imgur.com/tOOF1F2.png?1)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 17, 2016, 11:19:22 AM
 no need to link profanity here.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 11:28:12 AM
Um, that didn't insult me.  What left me more confused than insulted was the comment that you deleted (I've included it below to remind you).   In all sincerity, can you please explain the rage?  Why is it bad to hope that criminals not get away with their crimes irrespective of their religion.
Because everyone else's reaction was "Oy. Some people may go to jail. I hope it turns out they were innocent."
Your reaction was "Oy. Some people may not go to jail. I hope they're found guilty."
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: EJB on March 17, 2016, 11:28:46 AM
No need to call people names or invoke the profanity gods. I think most people here agree:

Several Jewish communities, including communities in upstate NY, leech government resources at the highest rates in the country. If they are doing anything illegal, they should be stopped and prosecuted, regardless of how learned they are and kadosh their intentions are. Are they doing anything illegal? Let the FBI do its job. Do we hope they turn out innocent? If they are innocent, yes. If they aren't innocent, no.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 11:31:43 AM
Because everyone else's reaction was "Oy. Some people may go to jail. I hope it turns out they were innocent."
Your reaction was "Oy. Some people may not go to jail. I hope they're found guilty."

Comeon... I don't see a single post here that implies: "Oy. Some people may go to jail. I hope it turns out they were innocent."  It certainly wasn't "everyone else's reaction," as you say.

Most of us assume they are guilty, it's unfortunately human nature which is why we need to be given the assei of dan lekav zechus. 

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shmoe joe on March 17, 2016, 11:53:46 AM
When will they learn? Why can't they just work with the system instead of abuse it? Reminds me of cunin, the arrogance is ridiculous
what happened to "innocent on till proven guilty"?? What's all this self hating Jew talk over here??
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 12:09:09 PM
...it simply means that you're a self-hating Jew so it's easy to like anyone else more.

What's all this self hating Jew talk over here??

So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Venilla on March 17, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.
We're definitely not perfect, there's no perfection on this world. But to be happy that a brother will be (or say he should be) prosecuted and his family should lose their leader and go broke, getting married without the father being on the wedding, etc.? It doesn't go into my head... What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.

If we were discussing someone who killed, raped, etc. that's a different thing...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mordechain on March 17, 2016, 12:38:26 PM
Not shocking at all, this was obviously going to happen.

http://forward.com/news/175087/orthodox-town-of-lakewood-grabs-bigger-computer-su/#todayilearned|thenewyorkgod

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3f0pir/
If you read the actual article, they aren't alleging fraud at all. Just that the circumstances of Lakewood's yeshivas make running networks, which are an allowed use of the program, very expensive.
The tone of the article is the real problem.
It's clear that they'd rather the yeshiva community simply not exist.
In essence, the crime is simply being frum.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 12:41:47 PM
We're definitely not perfect, there's no perfection on this world. But to be happy that a brother will be (or say he should be) prosecuted and his family should lose their leader and go broke, getting married without the father being on the wedding, etc.? It doesn't go into my head... What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.

If we were discussing someone who killed, raped, etc. that's a different thing...

Nobody is happy about this situation.  And nobody is happy that these people made decisions that will lead to their families being broken up.  I'm being criticized for hoping that they didn't destroy enough evidence to clear them if they are guilty.  Being called a self hating Jew for hoping that people who stole money from taxpayers get punished.  That's absurd.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 12:49:43 PM
What's the proportion of tax paid to education benefits by public school parents, and what's the number by private school parents?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Venilla on March 17, 2016, 12:53:41 PM
Nobody is happy about this situation.  And nobody is happy that these people made decisions that will lead to their families being broken up.  I'm being criticized for hoping that they didn't destroy enough evidence to clear them if they are guilty.  Being called a self hating Jew for hoping that people who stole money from taxpayers get punished.  That's absurd.

What would one say if it would be his son?

ETA: These drug dealers are getting so much sympathy and understanding... It's a shame.
Disclaimer: I'm in no way calling you or agreeing with those who called you a self hating Jew.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shmoe joe on March 17, 2016, 01:04:29 PM
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.
sure you could criticize but wait at least till they're proven guilty!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2016, 01:28:34 PM
If you read the actual article, they aren't alleging fraud at all. Just that the circumstances of Lakewood's yeshivas make running networks, which are an allowed use of the program, very expensive.
The tone of the article is the real problem.
It's clear that they'd rather the yeshiva community simply not exist.
In essence, the crime is simply being frum.

WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 01:30:42 PM
WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?
Getting raided and arrested is a chillul hashem?
How exactly are the children the victims here?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mordechain on March 17, 2016, 01:49:28 PM
WRONG. Besides for fraud, chilul hashem etc.. if guilty, arent the children the victims here ?
Did you read the article?
1. Erate is setup to provide funding for communications and computer infrastructure, including networks,phone systems and internet.
2. The most expensive items are wiring and setting up networks. This typically happens at the school board level, with significant cost savings for the individual schools.
3. Private schools are eligible, but since each one is run independently, the costs are high, because there is no economy of scale.
4. Most yeshiva students don't use the internet in class, but their schools certainly do use communication infrastructure. The forward article showed no evidence that erate  funds were not being used for communications infrastructure in Lakewood's schools.
5. The inference was, however, "Gosh, there are so darn many of them that they are eating up all our money, and those awful troglodytes won't even use Google!"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2016, 01:51:48 PM
Getting raided and arrested is a chillul hashem?
How exactly are the children the victims here?

If they used money intended to teach children computer access, the children were not getting computer access which in itself is hurting them.. but abusing any grant program's, like CC churning, means that in the future they will clamp down, close loopholes, audit more, be more selective etc
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2016, 01:52:38 PM
Did you read the article?
1. Erate is setup to provide funding for communications and computer infrastructure, including networks,phone systems and internet.
2. The most expensive items are wiring and setting up networks. This typically happens at the school board level, with significant cost savings for the individual schools.
3. Private schools are eligible, but since each one is run independently, the costs are high, because there is no economy of scale.
4. Most yeshiva students don't use the internet in class, but their schools certainly do use communication infrastructure. The forward article showed no evidence that erate  funds were not being used for communications infrastructure in Lakewood's schools.
5. The inference was, however, "Gosh, there are so darn many of them that they are eating up all our money, and those awful troglodytes won't even use Google!"

I said "If guilty"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 01:56:27 PM
What's the proportion of tax paid to education benefits by public school parents, and what's the number by private school parents?

It's irrelevant.  Are you really trying to use that as a justification to commit fraud??

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 01:57:35 PM
From Reddit
Quote
biffnix 7 points 7 months ago*
The thing to remember here is that E-rate does NOT subsidize computers. It's not legal to buy computers for classrooms with e-rate subsidies. They are not an authorized purchase for e-rate funds. The title is EXTREMELY misleading. E-rate funds are used to subsidize connectivity to eligible facilities (K12 schools and public libraries). That means, the data circuits qualify, the core router/switches qualify, and the Internet service itself (ISP contract) qualifies. But NOT classroom computers!
Other hardware qualifies, but only if it's on the eligible services list. Here's how it works:
http://www.sl.universalservice.org/reference/eligserv_framework.asp
You can subsidize telecommunications service (the circuits).
You can subsidize the Internet service itself
You can subsidize internal connections (see link for description)
You can subsidize basic maintenance of eligible equipment
That's it. It is up to INDIVIDUAL DISTRICTS to buy their own computers, mobile devices, or other end user equipment (printers, scanners, projectors, document cameras, etc.). E-rate is NOT FOR COMPUTERS! It's to subsidize schools to get Internet access for K12 and public library facilities.
I've been doing e-rate applications for myself and other districts since 1999, and it was NEVER possible to buy classroom computers with e-rate funding. It's illegal.
Just saying.
permalinksavegive gold
[–]THE_CLAW_SUCKS 3 points 7 months ago
Thank you for adding intelligence to an otherwise ridiculous string of comments.
permalinksaveparentgive gold
[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Yes, the title is actually factually incorrect. They did NOT get a "$700k federal grant for classroom computers." E-rate is EXPLICITLY not for that. It is so that schools and libraries can subsidize their costs for Internet connectivity. It's part of my job to apply for e-rate funding for my own office of education, as well as other districts, and the rules are very well defined.
permalinksaveparentgive gold
[–]THE_CLAW_SUCKS 2 points 7 months ago
This is Reddit though, so anything to bash the jews or religion will immediately be accepted as gospel.
permalinksaveparentgive gold
[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Sigh. I wish that weren't so.
permalinksaveparentgive gold
[–]TreeOct0pus 2 points 7 months ago
Wow... I wish this was higher. Adds a lot more to the conversation then discussing the various faults of Chasidim.
So what's going on with the article, then?
permalinksaveparentgive gold
[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Well, in journalism, the "hook" of the article seems to be implied fraud.
However, when reading the article, it's clear that the districts did NOT commit fraud at all. In fact, as part of getting e-rate funding approved, every application goes through what we call "PIA" which is Program Integrity Assurance, which is essentially an audit of your e-rate application (which must be filed every year). PIA verifies that the information on your e-rate filing is correct and accurate. They check things such as eligibility of requested services, verification of free and reduced lunch percentage, student population, school building addresses, that sort of thing. Applicants must respond to PIA requests within 7 business days, or their funding is denied.
Once you pass PIA, then, and only then, will they issue a Funding Commitment Decision Letter, which sets aside the funding for the applicant. They STILL don't get the money, though! The E-rate program is a reimbursement program for actual billed cost, so you must submit your actual bills for eligible services (that is, you must pay up front, and then the feds reimburse your school the following year). So they are never given money up front for spending. They are reimbursed when they submit bills for eligible services.
The minimum reimbursement percentage is 50%, and it goes higher if your school poor, or rural. Some schools get a 90% reimbursement on eligible services, if they are both poor AND rural. They still have the pay the bills up front, and get reimbursed the following fiscal year, though.
The article states that Lakewood, as a rapidly growing community, gets more e-rate dollars than older, larger communities. The implication is that the money is being misappropriated, but the situation actually makes perfect sense when you look at how E-rate works.
In older communities with established Internet infrastructure, the only e-rate eligible costs would be for the recurring circuit costs. No new schools require new wiring or circuits installed, or fiber pulled. That infrastructure is expensive, and is e-rate eligible. It makes sense older established communities have already built out this infrastructure, and so don't need more e-rate federal money to build out to their schools.
New schools, though, need fiber pulled to the campus, or new wiring installed. That's all labor intensive, and since it's eligible for e-rate, it makes perfect sense that these growing communities get more e-rate money. It's literally what the program is SUPPOSED to do - get Internet connections to facilities that don't already have them.
So I get that the journalist wants to make it look like huge waste of federal tax dollars, even though this isn't really true if you know about the e-rate program. That's just what sells papers, I suppose.
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[–]framerotblues 1 point 7 months ago
But where is the money going? Are these schools installing 10 gigabit fiber routers for their four desktop computers? Or are they just applying for the money and saying that they're installing all this equipment?
So they are never given money up front for spending. They are reimbursed when they submit bills for eligible services.
Who audits the connectivity services that were performed, such as copper and fiber pulling and termination? Who audits the equipment that was supposedly purchased?
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[–]biffnix 1 point 7 months ago
No, they literally can't spend e-rate money on things they don't actually buy. It's not possible because e-rate funds are disbursed the following fiscal year to an e-rate eligible provider (providers must apply for, and receive what's called a "SPIN" number) AFTER the services are provided. The school/library who is approved for e-rate funding must actually pay the bill out-of-pocket first, and then they are reimbursed the following fiscal year after they send in verified bills for the services they actually end up using and/or installing.
This is also another dishonest representation of the article. E-rate Funding Commitment Decision Letters set aside the maximum amount eligible for discount. However, they only reimburse for the ACTUAL billed amount. Since you cannot go back later and get reimbursed for more than you said you were willing to buy up front, it is encouraged to apply for any eligible services you MIGHT use the next fiscal year. This is because if you don't use it, no big deal, you still are approved for what you DO use. If you underestimate what you'll pay next year, you can NOT go back and ask for more to make up the difference.
For example, let's say I'm building a new school in my district next year. I apply THIS fall for next year's new school. I apply for a 1Gbps Internet service from a local ISP. I apply for a 32-pair single-mode fiber installation from the nearest pole to my building. I apply for routers, switches, wireless access points, cabling, jacks, and labor to do a turnkey installation. I apply for $120,000 for all of that. If I pass Program Integrity Assurance and get approved for that amount, I get my funding commitment decision letter.
Now come July 1 of next year, I begin construction, and I decide to install it all myself using cheaper labor, and an approved contractor (e-rate is required to have a public bid process) who installs everything. Since I do the physical installation and configuration myself, I save $30,00 on installation cost. While I was APPROVED for $120,000, I can only submit for e-rate reimbursement on what I actually PAID OUT. In this case, $90,000. So e-rate pays the reimbursement for the billed amount of $90,000, and the $30,000 I never use stays in the e-rate fund for next year for anyone else to apply for and use. I don't see a dime of that, even though I was approved up to that amount.
But, if a newspaper looks online at how much my district was awarded, they'll probably print a headline that reads "School Receives $120,000 in Taxpayer Money!!!" even though that's not true.
Since you asked, you can always call the district in question and simply ask what they spent their e-rate money on. Getting fiber infrastructure to their new buildings is not cheap. Have you ever managed a project to build out fiber to a new facility, and equip it? Let's put it this way - single mode fiber installation can range from $10-$100 per foot for installation. How many miles do you need to connect to the nearest ISP, connect all of your school buildings, and connect all of it up? How much does ISP cost per year for a commercial circuit? Do you build capacity for the four computers you have, or for the thousands of nodes you may someday have? If you're wise, you build out capacity for much more than you think you'll ever need. I've never once built out a project that used less bandwidth over time. That number has only ever risen.
The ONE point you make that I will concede is a problem with applying for e-rate reimbursement is that the program is intended so that students (for K12 facilities) and the public (for public libraries) have access to broadband Internet. This might mean the building has access, since the administration needs it to conduct school business, but their policy keeps actual students from accessing the Internet. THIS should be the focus of the article, not the fact that e-rate funds were absolutely used to get Internet service to K12 facilities (which they did, and adhered to the guidelines for the E-rate application process). Why aren't STUDENTS realizing the benefit of the taxpayer-funded Internet access?
If I were writing the article, the stress should be on the strange policy of keeping students from using the Internet when the program has a stated goal of this:
Full access to telecommunications and information resources makes possible the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries. For these institutions to provide the high level of service necessary for their students and patrons to participate fully in American society, the costs can be great. Telecommunications and Internet access, the hardware needed for assembling local networks, and maintenance of systems and machines can stretch budgets that are already under stress.
The universal service Schools and Libraries Program, commonly known as the E-rate Program, helps ensure that schools and libraries can obtain telecommunications and Internet access at affordable rates.
The article states that the district properly applied for Internet access to its facilities, and was legitimately reimbursed for it. This is not in conflict with the e-rate program. In my opinion, the REAL issue is that the program provides benefit for the school employees who are allowed to use the Internet, but NOT the students, who really should be the beneficiaries of this federal program.
It's also not taxpayer-funded, specifically - it is funded through the surcharge on landline customers. The "Universal Service Fund" surcharge funds this program in its entirety, so landline customers are paying for schools and libraries to get discounted telecommunications and data service connectivity.
Hope that helps!
Cheers.
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[–]hdhale 1 point 7 months ago
From the article, they appear to be using the $800k to provide for isolated local area networks for their schools. Not entirely what E-rate was intended to do.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Actually, E-rate funding can absolutely be used for LAN equipment, as long as it is eligible equipment. WiFi access points, switches, cabling, and maintenance qualify for Internal Connections funding if their federal free and reduced lunch count for their school qualifies them. The portion of e-rate funding for internal connections depends on the free and reduced lunch percentage, with highest percentage districts being funded first. However, this methodology changed in the last e-rate cycle, and there is a new 5-year funding formula for internal connections that is no longer entirely dependent on free and reduced student percentage.
It is STILL not allowed to be used for classroom computers, as the title erroneously states, however. The title of this post is factually incorrect. They did NOT use e-rate funds for classroom computers, nor could they. It would be illegal to do so, and it remains so today.
Cheers.
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[–]hdhale 2 points 7 months ago
Not disputing you at all, and indeed I can drop $800k on setting up LANs in schools without breaking much of a sweat. I was under the impression though that the funds were intended to bring the Internet to classrooms, LAN equipment being part of that (at least where it doesn't already exist or is sorely in need of an upgrade), but not the raison d'etre of the program, as it was actually implemented here.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago*
No worries, I'd rather have an informative discussion rather than an entirely emotional one. I believe we are mostly in agreement, in any case.
Here's a quote from the Schools & Libraries Division website regarding the E-rate program:
Full access to telecommunications and information resources makes possible the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries. For these institutions to provide the high level of service necessary for their students and patrons to participate fully in American society, the costs can be great. Telecommunications and Internet access, the hardware needed for assembling local networks, and maintenance of systems and machines can stretch budgets that are already under stress.
The universal service Schools and Libraries Program, commonly known as the E-rate Program, helps ensure that schools and libraries can obtain telecommunications and Internet access at affordable rates.
I think the real issue is not that the schools/districts leveraged e-rate funds to bring Internet service to their facilities. By all accounts, they adhered to e-rate guidelines and implemented them properly. There's a quote from an e-rate representative that stated it directly that there was no fraud in their e-rate application or installation.
I think the problem is that the reason Internet is being subsidized for schools & libraries by the FCC/Schools & Libraries Division is because they want to make available "the rich teaching and learning that take place in schools and libraries" with high speed Internet access for their students and patrons. In this case, that's not actually happening for the students in the seats. It's basically connecting their campuses but not connecting actual students. Unfortunately, this is not the fault of the FCC/E-Rate program. Rather, it is the odd policy instituted by school administration in this community. Only the community can fix that. If the article focused on THAT point, I think it would be a more powerful message.
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[–]hdhale 2 points 7 months ago
Ahh, they went with a WAN set up and created an administrative intranet, that makes sense. Cheeky. Definitely not in the spirit of the program, even if in compliance.
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[–]biffnix 2 points 7 months ago
Yes, I wish THAT had been the focus of the article, instead of implying fraud where none existed. At least they could then apply pressure with some sunlight on what is more clearly a misapplication of the funds for administration instead of the students. That would probably sell just as many papers, and is more accurate.
Sorry for the long quote.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 01:59:59 PM
It's irrelevant.  Are you really trying to use that as a justification to commit fraud??
There were complaints about disproportionate usage and leeching of tax dollars. I was just curious about the numbers.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 02:01:47 PM
If they used money intended to teach children computer access, the children were not getting computer access which in itself is hurting them.. but abusing any grant program's, like CC churning, means that in the future they will clamp down, close loopholes, audit more, be more selective etc
Saying that the children not having total internet access is abuse to them is a matter of opinion. Many would say that on the contrary, giving them total internet access would be akin to abuse.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 02:06:24 PM
Saying that the children not having total internet access is abuse to them is a matter of opinion. Many would say that on the contrary, giving them total internet access would be akin to abuse.

That's a valid opinion, but then those who believe that shouldn't take money for providing Internet service to children.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: gozalim on March 17, 2016, 02:09:31 PM
Did you read the article?
1. Erate is setup to provide funding for communications and computer infrastructure, including networks,phone systems and internet.
2. The most expensive items are wiring and setting up networks. This typically happens at the school board level, with significant cost savings for the individual schools.
3. Private schools are eligible, but since each one is run independently, the costs are high, because there is no economy of scale.
4. Most yeshiva students don't use the internet in class, but their schools certainly do use communication infrastructure. The forward article showed no evidence that erate  funds were not being used for communications infrastructure in Lakewood's schools.
5. The inference was, however, "Gosh, there are so darn many of them that they are eating up all our money, and those awful troglodytes won't even use Google!"

forward clearly has an axe to grind. As usual. In their books the crime is indeed just being Frum.

If all that was done was installing phone lines instead of computers, by the forward 's own description an allowed use,  I doubt anyone will go to jail.

Let's hope there was nothing shadier going on...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
That's a valid opinion, but then those who believe that shouldn't take money for providing Internet service to children.
Who said the money was for providing internet service to the children? Did you read the law?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 02:15:17 PM

Let's hope there was nothing shadier going on...

That's one thing I think we can all agree on. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sky121 on March 17, 2016, 02:37:15 PM
I'm not commenting on this situation specifically.  I don't want anyone to suffer more than they have to. At the same time you hope people learn their listen. Hopefully no one wants their fellow Jew, or father, child etc to suffer.  The problem with these stories sometimes  is that these are the people who often make themselves to be holier than thou and then turn around and do things like this either believing it's OK or just cheating outright.   So it's understandable how someone could react with really wanting them to get what's coming to them. I'm not saying its right. Just that emotionally I could understand that.


And let's be honest, there are plenty of Jewish organizations doing things they shouldn't be. And making themselves the authority on what's good and right for you or your child or community etc and then doing things like this.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 02:44:24 PM
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.

No, there's a proper way to criticize people that are close to you, people that are have constantly been persecuted by other nations and don't need any help.

He already has a reputation for his views and that's why I wrote it about him and not anyone else.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 02:45:40 PM
If you read the actual article, they aren't alleging fraud at all. Just that the circumstances of Lakewood's yeshivas make running networks, which are an allowed use of the program, very expensive.
The tone of the article is the real problem.
It's clear that they'd rather the yeshiva community simply not exist.
In essence, the crime is simply being frum.

What I meant is that the article/news was obviously going to spark an investigation and it did.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
I'm not commenting on this situation specifically.  I don't want anyone to suffer more than they have to. At the same time you hope people learn their listen. Hopefully no one wants their fellow Jew, or father, child etc to suffer.  The problem with these stories sometimes  is that these are the people who often make themselves to be holier than thou and then turn around and do things like this either believing it's OK or just cheating outright.   So it's understandable how someone could react with really wanting them to get what's coming to them. I'm not saying its right. Just that emotionally I could understand that.


And let's be honest, there are plenty of Jewish organizations doing things they shouldn't be. And making themselves the authority on what's good and right for you or your child or community etc and then doing things like this.

Sky's right. And in fact the reflexive "self hating Jew" accusations does our community a disservice.  We all know that the frum world has a fraud problem. Anyone who has been through the system knows it.  So we can admit it and deal with it or we can be in denial and call people names.  Unfortunately I fear that these won't be the last FBI raids nor the last families that lose their fathers to prison in our community.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 02:54:12 PM
No, there's a proper way to criticize people that are close to you, people that are have constantly been persecuted by other nations and don't need any help.

He already has a reputation for his views and that's why I wrote it about him and not anyone else.

Meh. There's nothing wrong with hoping that people who do wrong things don't get away with them. Based on your preconceived notions you are turning that into something it's not. And I understand that we all feel PTSD from all the generations of persecution but for goodness sake, don't take out your issues on tax payers.

Oh and calling someone a self hating Jew because you disagree with them or how they phrase something reflects more poorly on you than your intended target.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 02:55:03 PM
Sky's right. And in fact the reflexive "self hating Jew" accusations does our community a disservice.  We all know that the frum world has a fraud problem. Anyone who has been through the system knows it.  So we can admit it and deal with it or we can be in denial and call people names.  Unfortunately I fear that these won't be the last FBI raids nor the last families that lose their fathers to prison in our community.

It's ironic that you're fine with accusing still-innocent Jews for fraud and hope for maximum punishment but if anyone calls you out for your irrational (unless you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome) hatred of other Jews then it's doing the "community" a disservice.

I truly wonder what "community" you are a part of, because you definitely aren't doing anything helpful for the Jewish community with your hateful rhetoric.

Edit: I am very against any person, Jewish or not, committing fraud.
But I won't accuse them of fraud or hope they get punished based on their nationality.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: James Folsom on March 17, 2016, 03:08:58 PM
It's ironic that you're fine with accusing still-innocent Jews for fraud and hope for maximum punishment but if anyone calls you out for your irrational (unless you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome) hatred of other Jews then it's doing the "community" a disservice.

I truly wonder what "community" you are a part of, because you definitely aren't doing anything helpful for the Jewish community with your hateful rhetoric.

Edit: I am very against any person, Jewish or not, committing fraud.
But I won't accuse them of fraud or hope they get punished based on their nationality.
Schizophrenic "ShlockDoc" Who wants to disguise himself as a Jew is a F***ed Arab, in fact you can see him on his Avatar (the person on the left)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 03:09:21 PM
Meh. There's nothing wrong with hoping that people who do wrong things don't get away with them. Based on your preconceived notions you are turning that into something it's not. And I understand that we all feel PTSD from all the generations of persecution but for goodness sake, don't take out your issues on tax payers.

Oh and calling someone a self hating Jew because you disagree with them or how they phrase something reflects more poorly on you than your intended target.
Can I ask you who did anything wrong? Please clearly delineate the wrongdoings.

I feel your pain for those poor taxpayers, who are paying thousands less per child than public school would cost them.

Calling someone who feels the need to dedicate himself to exposing and prosecuting fraud in the Jewish world, whether or not it exists, a self hating Jew, reflects almost as badly as calling someone PTSD for asking you to be objective.

How's Shmarya Rosenberg's campaign to help fight hunger and poverty going? I don't see many ads in the Forward about that.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 03:10:15 PM
Schizophrenic "ShlockDoc" Who wants to disguise himself as a Jew is a F***ed Arab, in fact you can see him on his Avatar (the person on the left)
Both of those people in his avatar are Jewish.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 17, 2016, 03:35:37 PM
Schizophrenic "ShlockDoc" Who wants to disguise himself as a Jew is a F***ed Arab, in fact you can see him on his Avatar (the person on the left)

Wow, you created an account just to insult me. Talk about disguises. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: grodnoking on March 17, 2016, 03:43:21 PM
Schizophrenic "ShlockDoc" Who wants to disguise himself as a Jew is a F***ed Arab, in fact you can see him on his Avatar (the person on the left)
Are you the governor, or the guy who has 26 counts of illegal activity against him?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on March 17, 2016, 03:52:52 PM
As a frum jew you hold yourself to a high moral standard, its worse if what was done was supposedly to help jewish education while breaking the law. Thats what bothers me at least.

BTW I heard that Mayer Lansky offered Rabbi Korf of Florida a lot of $, Rabbi Korf supposedly replied that he doesnt want his duirty money, if true, I respect it
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dovy2 on March 17, 2016, 04:00:06 PM
I wonder if this was a result of the pro-secular-studies group
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 04:01:35 PM
I wonder if this was a result of the pro-secular-studies group

Were these chassidish schools or just basic yeshivish?  Often there's a whistelblower's reward so we may find out.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on March 17, 2016, 07:56:55 PM
The Frum world needs to learn how to run organizations and raise families without resorting to shady tactics. Until and unless that happens, the fraud will continue.

Instilling proper values in children would be a great start.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Centro on March 17, 2016, 08:00:12 PM


The Frum world needs to learn how to run organizations and raise families without resorting to shady tactics. Until and unless that happens, the fraud will continue.

Instilling proper values in children would be a great start.

What about the non frum? They're ok cause they're not under the radar?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: PlatinumGuy on March 17, 2016, 08:01:12 PM
The Frum world needs to learn how to run organizations and raise families without resorting to shady tactics. Until and unless that happens, the fraud will continue.

Instilling proper values in children would be a great start.

There are plenty of organizations that submit to full external audits.  I wouldn't be so sure that as a proportion of non-profits there is more fraud in the Jewish world
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on March 17, 2016, 08:12:56 PM
The Frum world needs to learn how to run organizations and raise families without resorting to shady tactics. Until and unless that happens, the fraud will continue.

Instilling proper values in children would be a great start.
+1      Maybe in an insular system that discourages working and higher education, the temptation for fraud is simply too grt. As w/o fraud there might be a shortage of $$
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 09:45:45 PM
Just a thought.

A black guy gets arrested after being accused of burglary, online commenters on the article say that the guy is def. guilty and that blacks are always stealing. Many of you SJW's here would be calling those commenters racist.

Meanwhile, a Jew gets accused of fraud, online commenters say the guy should get thrown in jail for many years, and that Jews are always committing fraud. What's the response?

If I step up and says the commenter is racist or hateful, immediately all the SJW's forget how they would react when the accused was black or any other race. No, Jews are different. Because us Jews experienced a holocaust, and if this racism isn't as bad as the holocaust then you gotta do your duty and shut up. Also, Jews have a higher moral compass, so if a Jew may have done something wrong he deserves more punishment and hate than anyone else from any other race.

So someone explain to me, why the double standard?
Why the thinly veiled racism/self hatred?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on March 17, 2016, 09:54:16 PM
So now we're never allowed to criticize a Jew or it makes you self-hating?  Grow up, kids.  We're not perfect.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 10:02:07 PM


Ideally you only criticize people that are guilty.
And ideally it doesn't become your life goal to criticize Jews.
If it's your life goal, then yes, you are self-hating Jew, plain and simple.

And the "grow up, kids. We're not perfect" line.
Condescending remarks to anyone that disagrees with his opinion, followed up with an excuse.
Just perfect.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on March 17, 2016, 10:12:49 PM

i havent spent enough time on the forums to decide whos "life goals" are to criticize jews

IMHO there is alot more hyper sensitivity to any criticism. Im also not sure how the holocaust is relevant
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 17, 2016, 10:39:24 PM
i havent spent enough time on the forums to decide whos "life goals" are to criticize jews

Umm okay

Quote
IMHO there is alot more hyper sensitivity to any criticism. Im also not sure how the holocaust is relevant

IMHO any group getting criticized, fairly or not, is hypersensitive.
And Jews get criticized for being hypersensitive more than anyone else.
No one said the holocaust is relevant, I'm sorry you don't comprehend.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on March 17, 2016, 11:05:37 PM
And the "grow up, kids. We're not perfect" line.
Condescending remarks to anyone that disagrees with his opinion, followed up with an excuse.
Just perfect.

Wait... do you see the irony in your post? 

The first person to allow the conversation to devolve into name-calling was - drumroll - you.  When someone shines a light onto the corrupt, abusive, and/or fraudulent activities in our community, you and so many others attack the messenger for some reason; not just in this case, but even when someone has been found guilty.  Or then, it's "they got railroaded by an anti-Semitic judge/prosecutor/system." 

We need to take responsibility for these actions as a community, and do what we can to stop them.  Not hide, justify, or excuse them.

/end rant
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 17, 2016, 11:18:47 PM
Lot of ranting on the soap boxes.
Would anybody like to point out the wrongdoings here?
(Besides for being frum of course. They're guilty on that count, I'll concede.)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on March 17, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
This could've been a lot worse.
They only went to 3 schools.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: efflpetzel on March 18, 2016, 01:48:30 AM
And then you get the breakdown of the average crowd we have here   ::)
This stuff is hilarious
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: efflpetzel on March 18, 2016, 02:03:56 AM
Just a thought.

A black guy gets arrested after being accused of burglary, online commenters on the article say that the guy is def. guilty and that blacks are always stealing. Many of you SJW's here would be calling those commenters racist.

Meanwhile, a Jew gets accused of fraud, online commenters say the guy should get thrown in jail for many years, and that Jews are always committing fraud. What's the response?

If I step up and says the commenter is racist or hateful, immediately all the SJW's forget how they would react when the accused was black or any other race. No, Jews are different. Because us Jews experienced a holocaust, and if this racism isn't as bad as the holocaust then you gotta do your duty and shut up. Also, Jews have a higher moral compass, so if a Jew may have done something wrong he deserves more punishment and hate than anyone else from any other race.

So someone explain to me, why the double standard?
Why the thinly veiled racism/self hatred?
before you say another word would you please stop your pathetic invoking of the Holocaust,

 you lose all you're legitimacy when you do that.
 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChAiM'l on March 18, 2016, 07:40:33 AM
before you say another word would you please stop your pathetic invoking of the Holocaust,

 you lose all you're legitimacy when you do that.
 

He isn't invoking it. He is referring to the people that tend to for the wrong reasons...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: A3 on March 18, 2016, 08:29:36 AM
Anybody arrested yet? Why not... Why make a huge scene not to take anyone, they could have done it without a scene... Color war breakout?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Baruch on March 18, 2016, 08:38:45 AM
Anybody arrested yet? Why not... Why make a huge scene not to take anyone, they could have done it without a scene... Color war breakout?
shock and awe
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 18, 2016, 09:00:31 AM
I setup a couple of servers for a school that got erate grant. The guys getting the grant are outright scammers. A)The program requires the project to be bid out. It's not. B)The servers that were given to us to install were refurbished out of warranty servers when they should have been top of the line.

The guy would go from school to school and tell them that he can get them new computer equipment, phone system, wiring and it would cost the school nothing. Officially the school needs to pay some but the guy would just give the school a kickback to cover that part. He was making a killing on this.
So call the FBI.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 09:20:57 AM

What about the non frum? They're ok cause they're not under the radar?
obviously its not good, but it doesnt bother ppl as much ( i think) bc they dont strut around like they are super frum and following halacha, when behind closed doors, they are stealing (which happens to be a halacha too, but thats conveniently the one they dont follow)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:21:11 AM
Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that there is an increase in fraud amongst chareidim.\

You cannot compare the level of stress and pressure that exists amongst chareidim to earn a living to the rest of society.

In a normal modern Orthodox community, the vast majority are highly educated and have nice paying, salaried jobs. - This situation naturally leads to much less incentive and opportunity to commit fraud.

Amongst chareidim, and especially chassidim, high paying employment is virtually non existent. Everyone needs to hustle to make a living. There is no other choice. This provides additional incentive and opportunity for fraud.


This is known as the fraud triangle.

Fraud has three components:

1)opportunity
2)pressure
3)rationalization


These are arguably more present amongst chareidim. This is not because chareidim are bad or worse, It is just the way of the world.

כל שאינו מלמד בנו...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 09:22:34 AM
Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that there is an increase in fraud amongst chareidim.\

You cannot compare the level of stress and pressure that exists amongst chareidim to earn a living to the rest of society.

In a normal modern Orthodox community, the vast majority are highly educated and have nice paying, salaried jobs. - This situation naturally leads to much less incentive and opportunity to commit fraud.

Amongst chareidim, and especially chassidim, high paying employment is virtually non existent. Everyone needs to hustle to make a living. There is no other choice. This provides additional incentive and opportunity for fraud.


This is known as the fraud triangle.

Fraud has three components:

1)opportunity
2)pressure
3)rationalization


These are arguably more present amongst chareidim. This is not because chareidim are bad or worse, It is just the way of the world.

כל שאינו מלמד בנו...
and here i thought i was going to disagree with your post :)
as long you arent implying a justification, but rather a statement of fact, and noting that it is a serious issue, then i am in agreement
otherwise, ya, we disagree
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 09:25:45 AM
Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that there is an increase in fraud amongst chareidim.\

You cannot compare the level of stress and pressure that exists amongst chareidim to earn a living to the rest of society.

In a normal modern Orthodox community, the vast majority are highly educated and have nice paying, salaried jobs. - This situation naturally leads to much less incentive and opportunity to commit fraud.

Amongst chareidim, and especially chassidim, high paying employment is virtually non existent. Everyone needs to hustle to make a living. There is no other choice. This provides additional incentive and opportunity for fraud.


This is known as the fraud triangle.

Fraud has three components:

1)opportunity
2)pressure
3)rationalization


These are arguably more present amongst chareidim. This is not because chareidim are bad or worse, It is just the way of the world.

כל שאינו מלמד בנו...
I see that you sometimes have difficulty realizing what conversations will be the results of your posts.........
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:29:23 AM
I see that you sometimes have difficulty realizing what conversations will be the results of your posts.........
I'm not sure what your problem is..  You a Philly guy by any chance?

You just seem to be on my case the last few weeks for no reason..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theblakdavid on March 18, 2016, 09:31:12 AM
I see that you sometimes have difficulty realizing what conversations will be the results of your posts.........

I'm not sure what your problem is..  You a Philly guy by any chance?

You just seem to be on my case the last few weeks for no reason..
Oy vey guys. Let's get along:). And no, I'm not a philly guy:). What's with them?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 09:32:00 AM
I'm not sure what your problem is..  You a Philly guy by any chance?

You just seem to be on my case the last few weeks for no reason..
No I am not a Philly guy, but do you not see where your comment will very obviously head? Did you not see where the post about the course would head?

Last few weeks? I just saw the same thing twice within 2 days.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Baruch on March 18, 2016, 09:35:25 AM
Did you not see where the post about the course would head?
link? (and a bag of popcorn)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:36:17 AM


No I am not a Philly guy, but do you not see where your comment will very obviously head? Did you not see where the post about the course would head?

I am here to defend any place the post will go that I don't like.
I still stand by my post. And I will also vehemently object to calls for college etc. -
My point here is actually in defense of chareidim. - that they are not necessarily bad ppl.


And btw.
I do make some mistakes. - the pic from the other day is a good example. Thanks
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:36:49 AM
link? (and a bag of popcorn)
It's gone
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 18, 2016, 09:39:51 AM
It's gone
What was it ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:44:37 AM
What was it ?
It's gone for a reason.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: rileywiles23 on March 18, 2016, 09:45:20 AM
It's gone for a reason.
You deleted it ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:46:06 AM
No I am not a Philly guy, but do you not see where your comment will very obviously head? Did you not see where the post about the course would head?

Last few weeks? I just saw the same thing twice within 2 days.
Just FYI, I was convinced that you are one till now. - il take your word for it
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Tzafnas Paneach on March 18, 2016, 09:57:14 AM




This is known as the fraud triangle.

Fraud has three components:

1)opportunity
2)pressure
3)rationalization


You happen to learn this in an accounting class by any chance? The fraud triangle brings me back to my college days...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:58:03 AM

You happen to learn this in an accounting class by any chance? The fraud triangle brings me back to my college days...
I audit 60+ hrs a week these day
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 09:58:57 AM
I audit 60+ hrs a week these day
if that is excluding your DDF time, you must never sleep
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 09:59:26 AM
Just FYI, I was convinced that you are one till now. - il take your word for it (http://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji3.png)
The only time I was ever at the Philly Yeshiva was for R Elya's levaya. I have spoken with R Shmuel a few times about various shaylos and I am a talmid of R S M Katz who is a talmid of his. Other than that I have 2 BILs who learned there but no more connection than that. I learned in Passaic.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 09:59:35 AM
if that is excluding your DDF time, you must never sleep
Nah, clients have to pay for the research.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Tzafnas Paneach on March 18, 2016, 10:00:54 AM
I audit 60+ hrs a week these day
Not bad for busy season. I hit 80 hours in the two weeks before filing.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
Not bad for busy season. I hit 80 hours in the two weeks before filing.
Working hard is a good thing, but I'd still call the decision silly. Who's ever heard of a 2k bonus for being top rated and billing 2000 hours. That's slave labor. And I'm not convinced the exit opportunities are so great from a non big 4.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:03:31 AM


The only time I was ever at the Philly Yeshiva was for R Elya's levaya. I have spoken with R Shmuel a few times about various shaylos and I am a talmid of R S M Katz who is a talmid of his. Other than that I have 2 BILs who learned there but no more connection than that. I learned in Passaic.

Ok - vindicated.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 18, 2016, 10:04:29 AM
And I will also vehemently object to calls for college etc. -

Can you please explain your objections to a college education?  I'm not challenging, I'm sincerely asking to understand...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 18, 2016, 10:05:26 AM
link? (and a bag of popcorn)
Gone with the wind. :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:08:57 AM
Can you please explain your objections to a college education?  I'm not challenging, I'm sincerely asking to understand...
Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:09:48 AM

Ok - vindicated.
You probably see me regularly. I thought you knew who I am.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theblakdavid on March 18, 2016, 10:10:00 AM
Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.
+1000. You a philly guy?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:10:57 AM
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.
If those are the reasons then there are easy answers.
A) so go to one like Touro or maybe YU
B) Even if, according to your reasoning above it is melamdo listus? Just go to one of the part day abreviated programs like in Ner Yisroel etc...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 18, 2016, 10:13:55 AM
I'm not sure what your problem is..  You a Philly guy by any chance?

You just seem to be on my case the last few weeks for no reason..
Why Philly? Where did that come in?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 18, 2016, 10:14:35 AM
If those are the reasons then there are easy answers.
A) so go to one like Touro or maybe YU
B) Even if, according to your reasoning above it is melamdo listus? Just go to one of the part day abreviated programs like in Ner Yisroel etc...
Can we NOT get into this?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:15:27 AM
Even if, according to your reasoning above it is melamdo listus?
I just added the gemoroh as an extra source to my argument that being a hustlers can lead to fraud.

I am explicitly not calling for us to close the yeshivos CV and go to college.
I'm simply explaining why the fraud triangle actually does exist amongst us.

To the contrary, given the circumstances it is amazing how Ehrlich the average frum business person is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 18, 2016, 10:19:45 AM
Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.

Both valid points.  Have there been proposals for a system that could allow for classes to be offered part time in the yeshiva itself to solve for both points?   Getting an education could potentially solve so many problems and those two issues seem solvable.  Has there been any internal pressure toward something?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:20:15 AM
Why Philly? Where did that come in?

Can we NOT get into this?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: srap on March 18, 2016, 10:21:01 AM
Can we NOT get into this?
or just open a separate thread for "College or  not"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:23:18 AM
Both valid points.  Have there been proposals for a system that could allow for classes to be offered part time in the yeshiva itself to solve for both points?   Getting an education could potentially solve so many problems and those two issues seem solvable.  Has there been any internal pressure toward something?

I can tell you that in Lakewood there are many initiatives to offer courses to kollel men to enable them to find decent paying jobs.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:23:49 AM

+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 18, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
Both valid points.  Have there been proposals for a system that could allow for classes to be offered part time in the yeshiva itself to solve for both points?   Getting an education could potentially solve so many problems and those two issues seem solvable.  Has there been any internal pressure toward something?
In E'Y this problem is much more prevalent. In America, the Chareidi society is definitely not as well educated as the MO society (which is way above America's average), but I don't know that they're necessarily lower than the average American. There are plenty of certified/white collar employed chareidim.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:25:30 AM
Both valid points.  Have there been proposals for a system that could allow for classes to be offered part time in the yeshiva itself to solve for both points?   Getting an education could potentially solve so many problems and those two issues seem solvable.  Has there been any internal pressure toward something?
Yeah. Hundreds of Bmg students take a quick college accounting course (through agudas yisroel) later on in life - when crunch time comes. This situation was unprecedented years ago..


Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:27:42 AM
If those are the reasons then there are easy answers.
A) so go to one like Touro or maybe YU
B) Even if, according to your reasoning above it is melamdo listus? Just go to one of the part day abreviated programs like in Ner Yisroel etc...
A) really don't want to get into this.. but let's just say I'm not cool with hashkofa at YU..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 10:30:02 AM
A) really don't want to get into this.. but let's just say I'm not cool with hashkofa at YU..
we can tell
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: srap on March 18, 2016, 10:31:56 AM
before you say another word would you please stop your pathetic invoking of the Holocaust,

 you lose all you're legitimacy when you do that.
-1  One must always learn from history, especially his own, otherwise he is a fool.  The students were immediately marched out of the classrooms, many without coats, shivering in the cold weather, herded together in their multitudes.  Shock, trauma, commands, no answers, 'bullying' in the name of the law.  They are victims,  probably scarred for life.  Teachers, too.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on March 18, 2016, 10:33:20 AM
Yeah. Hundreds of Bmg students take a quick college accounting course (through agudas yisroel) later on in life - when crunch time comes. This situation was unprecedented years ago..

Thanks. Sounds like a very promising step.  Is there push-back in the community or is the program accepted and likely to expand?  There's no reason everyone shouldn't be educated as long as it doesn't put them in a secular college environment, right?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: skyguy918 on March 18, 2016, 10:34:03 AM
Yeah. Hundreds of Bmg students take a quick college accounting course (through agudas yisroel) later on in life - when crunch time comes. This situation was unprecedented years ago..
You think it's so different even on a percent basis?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:34:19 AM
A) really don't want to get into this.. but let's just say I'm not cool with hashkofa at YU..
I understand that and that is why I wrote maybe, but my point was that there are options available without sitting on the college campusesw.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:36:48 AM
Thanks. Sounds like a very promising step.  Is there push-back in the community or is the program accepted and likely to expand?  There's no reason everyone shouldn't be educated as long as it doesn't put them in a secular college environment, right?

The program is very accepted and BMG is accommodating to it. It has expanded past that already. There have been courses going numerous other routes as well including but not limited to actuarial and programming.
I can tell you that in Lakewood there are many initiatives to offer courses to kollel men to enable them to find decent paying jobs.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: skyguy918 on March 18, 2016, 10:39:49 AM
The program is very accepted and BMG is accommodating to it. It has expanded past that already. There have been courses going numerous other routes as well including but not limited to actuarial and programming.
I get a lot of calls from friends and acquaintances in Lakewood asking about the actuarial career path. But everyone that I know who actually pursued it came in to NY for school (mostly Touro) - even if they were still living in Lakewood.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on March 18, 2016, 10:41:11 AM
I get a lot of calls from friends and acquaintances in Lakewood asking about the actuarial career path. But everyone that I know who actually pursued it came in to NY for school (mostly Touro) - even if they were still living in Lakewood.
It was offered, but I don't think it had enough demand to be a regular offering.

ETA:
I do not see it listed so maybe there wasn't enough demand for them to do the course. See these links.
http://www.pcsnynj.org/educational-services/
http://www.pcsnynj.org/event/career-night-2-march-21st/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: skyguy918 on March 18, 2016, 10:41:53 AM
As a frum jew you hold yourself to a high moral standard, its worse if what was done was supposedly to help jewish education while breaking the law. Thats what bothers me at least.

BTW I heard that Mayer Lansky offered Rabbi Korf of Florida a lot of $, Rabbi Korf supposedly replied that he doesnt want his duirty money, if true, I respect it
Not to imply that they took money from him per se, but reminds me of this plaque in the Bialystoker shul (LES):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Bugsy%27sPlaque.JPG/640px-Bugsy%27sPlaque.JPG)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:43:34 AM


  There's no reason everyone shouldn't be educated as long as it doesn't put them in a secular college environment, right?
Maybe, but a) it's not like an accounting career automatically means a comfortable parnassah.. It does lend job security, but can't be compared to a real profession like a dr, lawyer, dentist, engineer etc.-  So not everyone is clamoring for it.
b) even this is frowned upon by many families and circles. Just having a job in a big non Jewish firm is also a pretty foreign concept here...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:45:14 AM
It was offered, but I don't think it had enough demand to be a regular offering.
Correct. Nothing really took off besides accounting and some software. Accounting is the only one that pretty much guarantees a real job afterwards
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on March 18, 2016, 10:49:16 AM
The bases of this discussion is that college educted chardim get higher pay job's, therefore they ate less likely to turn to fraud.
May I ask what salary we discussing, 100k dose not get you far in the hamishe world. How many professionals make more then that?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 10:50:18 AM
The bases of this discussion is that college educted chardim get higher pay job's, therefore they ate less likely to turn to fraud.
May I ask what salary we discussing, 100k dose not get you far in the hamishe world. How many professionals make more then that?
Virtually all professionals make more than that after a few years.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 18, 2016, 10:52:56 AM
The bases of this discussion is that college educted chardim get higher pay job's, therefore they ate less likely to turn to fraud.
May I ask what salary we discussing, 100k dose not get you far in the hamishe world. How many professionals make more then that?
In the MO world? Plenty.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 10:53:38 AM
The bases of this discussion is that college educted chardim get higher pay job's, therefore they ate less likely to turn to fraud.
May I ask what salary we discussing, 100k dose not get you far in the hamishe world. How many professionals make more then that?
cant you correct some typos before posting please?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on March 18, 2016, 10:57:37 AM
cant you correct some typos before posting please?

Sorry when posting from a phone it's hard
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on March 18, 2016, 11:03:42 AM
Virtually all professionals make more than that after a few years.
In the MO world? Plenty.

I know CPA's and architects, and it's not easy to make more then 100k in the employee market.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on March 18, 2016, 11:04:13 AM
before you say another word would you please stop your pathetic invoking of the Holocaust,

 you lose all you're legitimacy when you do that.

Wow you really lost your mind.
Read it again. maybe with someone by your side next time.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: dealfinder85 on March 18, 2016, 11:10:02 AM
Sorry when posting from a phone it's hard
#lame
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 18, 2016, 11:16:00 AM
I now CPA's and architects, and it's not easy to make much more in the employee market.
?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on March 18, 2016, 12:40:37 PM
?
I know CPA's and architects, and it's not easy to make more then 100k in the employee market.

FTFY or me

I better stop posting from a phone browser :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Lou Bob on March 25, 2016, 10:32:48 AM
They're back
Ht: Einstein and Herschelsdeals
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on March 25, 2016, 11:06:31 AM
They're back
Ht: Einstein and Herschelsdeals
details?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mendy from lakewood on March 25, 2016, 11:30:38 AM
They're back
Ht: Einstein and Herschelsdeals
can someone spill the beans
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on March 25, 2016, 11:32:15 AM
Well everyone is hungover there anyways...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mendy from lakewood on March 25, 2016, 02:41:28 PM
http://matzav.com/photos-fbi-agents-return-to-rockland-county-today-shushan-purim/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on March 25, 2016, 03:34:02 PM


Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 

I believe its a lot more difficult in the secular work place. Mainly due to leaving the confines of yeshivah. That may explain why its still a foreign concept to some to join secular firms. Imo, yeshivahs need to do more to equip their talmidim with the ability to remain erlich even outside of the 4 walls of the beis medrash.
Thanks. Sounds like a very promising step.  Is there push-back in the community or is the program accepted and likely to expand?  There's no reason everyone shouldn't be educated as long as it doesn't put them in a secular college environment, right?


Maybe, but a) it's not like an accounting career automatically means a comfortable parnassah.. It does lend job security, but can't be compared to a real profession like a dr, lawyer, dentist, engineer etc.-  So not everyone is clamoring for it.
b) even this is frowned upon by many families and circles. Just having a job in a big non Jewish firm is also a pretty foreign concept here...

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 25, 2016, 04:12:23 PM
I believe its a lot more difficult in the secular work place. Mainly due to leaving the confines of yeshivah. That may explain why its still a foreign concept to some to join secular firms. Imo, yeshivahs need to do more to equip their talmidim with the ability to remain erlich even outside of the 4 walls of the beis medrash.
There is no indoctrination in the workplace.
It is important though to maintain social barriers though IMHO. On this note, I believe it is easier to maintain these barriers at work than in school.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on March 25, 2016, 04:16:06 PM
There is no indoctrination in the workplace.
It is important though to maintain social barriers though IMHO. On this note, I believe it is easier to maintain these barriers at work than in school.
Oh there sure is, its just a lot more subtle.
And its not just social barriers I'm reffering to, its maintaining the level of avodah in all aspects of their life that was present when in yeshivah.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on March 25, 2016, 05:12:09 PM
Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.

I disagree with a) unless you are only referring to full time college living on campus. I went to a commuter college and there was very little challenge to remain ehrlich. I went to class, I went home. No fraternizing unless I wanted to. No "goyishe concepts" that caused any revelations. Easy enough to go in there with the attitude of do what I need to do and learn what i need to learn and zeh hu.

I agree with the person who said the workplace is more difficult, especially if you are ambitious, since fraternizing is fundamental to getting ahead.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 25, 2016, 05:21:18 PM
Oh there sure is, its just a lot more subtle.
And its not just social barriers I'm reffering to, its maintaining the level of avodah in all aspects of their life that was present when in yeshivah.
There are benei aliya in yeshiva and benei aliya who work.

On the flip side, There are some yeshiva guys who are not exactly shteiging...

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on March 26, 2016, 10:18:43 PM
http://forward.com/news/336916/second-fbi-probe-of-orthodox-yeshivas-eyeing-school-lunch-fraud/?attribution=articles-article-listing-1-headline
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on March 26, 2016, 10:29:30 PM
http://forward.com/news/336916/second-fbi-probe-of-orthodox-yeshivas-eyeing-school-lunch-fraud/?attribution=articles-article-listing-1-headline

i'm sure that the schools are serving the food. The question is if the schools are charging some of the parents for lunch? (Or, possibly if the families that claim that they qualify for free lunch, perhaps are not qualified?)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: beeweegee on March 26, 2016, 10:44:54 PM
There are benei aliya in yeshiva and benei aliya who work.

On the flip side, There are some yeshiva guys who are not exactly shteiging...
You know what else there are? Bnei aliya in college. Not saying it's easy, but for you to say that it is "virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim"? That's inaccurate.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2016, 10:47:52 PM
You know what else there are? Bnei aliya in college. Not saying it's easy, but for you to say that it is "virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim"? That's inaccurate.
Fwiu the content of many of the lectures is diametrically opposed to hashkafas hatorah. Please cmiiw.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2016, 10:49:14 PM
i'm sure that the schools are serving the food. The question is if the schools are charging some of the parents for lunch? (Or, possibly if the families that claim that they qualify for free lunch, perhaps are not qualified?)
Or are they serving a $1 lunch cream cheese sandwich, and billing for meat, potatoes and vegetables...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on March 26, 2016, 11:01:02 PM
Or are they serving a $1 lunch cream cheese sandwich, and billing for meat, potatoes and vegetables...

good point. probably provide all the needed foods, but maybe higher costs. They have to pay the kitchen staff.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 26, 2016, 11:15:56 PM
Also may affect many heimisheh CPA's if they rubber stamp the audits..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: beeweegee on March 26, 2016, 11:35:33 PM
Fwiu the content of many of the lectures is diametrically opposed to hashkafas hatorah. Please cmiiw.
While that is absolutely correct, the prevalence certainly depends on the field of study. Although even in fields that do involve quite a bit of content that may be keneged daas/hashkafas hatorah, one can still go into it with a proper mindset, a very serious connection to rebbeim and rabbanim, and still remain both a yarei shamayim and a ben aliyah. Again, no one said it's easy, but it is certainly possible, and I know many people who fall in this category (I'm sure you do too).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on March 27, 2016, 01:34:53 AM
Fwiu the content of many of the lectures is diametrically opposed to hashkafas hatorah. Please cmiiw.

So what? Are you the type of person who can't listen to something that he doesn't believe? Most people with a healthy mind can absorb alternative viewpoints and understand that the torah way is different. I'm sure that some people are too weak minded and should not go to college, or ride the subway for that matter, but the other 99% can handle it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: gozalim on March 27, 2016, 04:19:44 AM
Also may affect many heimisheh CPA's if they rubber stamp the audits..
Also means more info to many ppls 'true' hachnasos now that the books have access to the non-books books v'dal
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 27, 2016, 08:56:47 AM
So what? Are you the type of person who can't listen to something that he doesn't believe? Most people with a healthy mind can absorb alternative viewpoints and understand that the torah way is different. I'm sure that some people are too weak minded and should not go to college, or ride the subway for that matter, but the other 99% can handle it.
I am that type.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: EJB on March 27, 2016, 09:11:55 AM
Two main reasons.
a) virtually impossible to remain a ehrlicheh yorei shomayim immersed in  the poisonous permissive college atmosphere. 
b) Bitul Torah. - one is not required to spend 4 quality years studying for an easier earning potential needed after marriage.

Not sure you understand the meaning of "bitul torah." Also, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Many lakewooders forego night seder to get a degree but continue to learn with as much quality during the remaining sedarim. It's a challenge, sure, but l'fum tza'arah agrah
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: EJB on March 27, 2016, 09:12:48 AM
So what? Are you the type of person who can't listen to something that he doesn't believe? Most people with a healthy mind can absorb alternative viewpoints and understand that the torah way is different. I'm sure that some people are too weak minded and should not go to college, or ride the subway for that matter, but the other 99% can handle it.

Or go on the internet, even with the strongest filter
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: beeweegee on March 27, 2016, 10:43:50 AM
I am that type.
Perhaps. Nothing wrong with that. But to say it is "virtually impossible" to remain a yorei shamayim and ben aliyah is, again, inaccurate and a projection of your own (using your own word) "type". Again, I want to be clear - I have nothing against the shitta against college for those who don't require it or don't think that they would remain a good Torah Jew if they attended college. But I also respect those who go for the right reasons with the backing of Daas Torah.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on March 27, 2016, 09:02:32 PM
I am that type.

Good that you know yourself. But most people are not that type.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 27, 2016, 10:42:51 PM
Or go on the internet, even with the strongest filter
The internet is not a "thing" that one "goes on". - It is an integral part of modern existence.

The question is "where" one is going while using the internet.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on March 27, 2016, 10:53:26 PM
The internet is not a "thing" that one "goes on". - It is an integral part of modern existence.

The question is "where" one is going while using the internet.
Let's not go there. It'll be an absurd conversation to have over the internet.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mendy from lakewood on May 12, 2016, 12:06:17 PM
they're back!

http://www.vosizneias.com/238514/2016/05/12/orange-county-ny-fbi-law-enforcement-raid-underway-at-locations-in-kiryas-joel/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Marko Rubio on May 12, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
they're back!

http://www.vosizneias.com/238514/2016/05/12/orange-county-ny-fbi-law-enforcement-raid-underway-at-locations-in-kiryas-joel/
any details?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 12:45:22 PM
any details?

the fact that this may help with preventing future child/physical abuse in schools
(mentions that one of the schools where officers are stationed is the one where the principal's office was videotaped
while he was physically holding a child) may be a better overall outcome than the previous tech-abuse charges.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on May 12, 2016, 12:47:09 PM
the fact that this may help with preventing future child/physical abuse in schools
(mentions that one of the schools where officers are stationed is the one where the principal's office was videotaped
while he was physically holding a child) may be a better overall outcome than the previous tech-abuse charges.

i heard (via whatsapp so extremely credible and reliable source) that they issued a search warrant. wonder what they were looking for
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Marko Rubio on May 12, 2016, 12:51:29 PM
the fact that this may help with preventing future child/physical abuse in schools
(mentions that one of the schools where officers are stationed is the one where the principal's office was videotaped
while he was physically holding a child) may be a better overall outcome than the previous tech-abuse charges.
right, but is this raid related to that video?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 01:26:27 PM
Possible that they can't get them in child abuse so they're going after something else.
In other words, the video brought additional attention
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 01:34:14 PM
Possible that they can't get them in child abuse so they're going after something else.
In other words, the video brought additional attention

their schools were already being watched for getting e-Rate credit without using the tech/internet services as claimed. Perhaps this is a follow-up.
(Or there are certain items in existence on the schools' computers, since they do not use comp/internet at home....)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elit on May 12, 2016, 01:37:51 PM
Possible that they can't get them in child abuse so they're going after something else.
In other words, the video brought additional attention
Maybe they're looking for more evidence of child abuse? That video certainly would indicate as much
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on May 12, 2016, 01:41:02 PM
Law enforcement got ahold of that video 7 months ago
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on May 12, 2016, 01:46:36 PM
Law enforcement got ahold of that video 7 months ago

so they say... UTA never lies...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Marko Rubio on May 12, 2016, 01:49:00 PM
Law enforcement got ahold of that video 7 months ago
source?
and also how did that video got uncovered?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on May 12, 2016, 01:49:26 PM
so they say... UTA never lies...
true    I just realized UTA is the only source for that
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ilherman on May 12, 2016, 01:59:53 PM
I heard that one of the teachers suspected child abuse and implanted it in the office.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 02:03:26 PM
I heard that one of the teachers suspected child abuse and implanted it in the office.
Maybe the fbi are the ones who were watching?
They did have search warrants..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on May 12, 2016, 03:49:57 PM
אונז האבן אלע געכאפט פעטש און חדר.
ס'איז אייביג אזוי געווען און ס'וועט אייביג אזוי זיין.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 03:55:35 PM
אונז האבן אלע געכאפט פעטש און חדר.
ס'איז אייביג אזוי געווען און ס'וועט אייביג אזוי זיין.

what everyone saw was not a potch. that won't fly. sorrrrrrrryyyy....... 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 04:07:40 PM
what everyone saw was not a potch. that won't fly. sorrrrrrrryyyy.......

+1.

The fact that he's still around kids is beyond disturbing.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on May 12, 2016, 04:25:14 PM
He gave the kid "special attention"?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 04:30:28 PM
He gave the kid "special attention"?

are you saying that this boy wanted this special time with the principal?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 04:40:01 PM
are you saying that this boy wanted this special time with the principal?
Have you watched the video? And if you have have you seen anything criminal in the video?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on May 12, 2016, 04:46:24 PM
are you saying that this boy wanted this special time with the principal?
I am asking if the man sexually abused the child?
Have you watched the video? And if you have have you seen anything criminal in the video?
I did not watch it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 04:59:05 PM
I am asking if the man sexually abused the child? I did not watch it.
No he didn't. That's according to those that viewed the video , and the child.

The only evidence that something happened is the video, and there is no evidence in the video. No one came forward or anything like that as far as anyone knows.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 05:16:14 PM
No he didn't. That's according to those that viewed the video , and the child.

The only evidence that something happened is the video, and there is no evidence in the video. No one came forward or anything like that as far as anyone knows.

many red flags in the video. The boy may have been pressured that worse would happen if he spoke up about the facts, therefore no evidence will be provided by him.

However, the longer unedited video show worse evidence, apparently. I did not see that full 15 min segment.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 05:17:25 PM
No he didn't. That's according to those that viewed the video , and the child.

The only evidence that something happened is the video, and there is no evidence in the video. No one came forward or anything like that as far as anyone knows.

Did you see the videos?  Repeatedly kissing a restrained boy on the face isn't abuse?  Shaking him while he's being held in between the guy's legs for 15 minutes while his arms are immobilized?  Even if it's not sexual abuse, it's seemingly abuse.

Criminal or not, the guy should not be around children, and UTA's letter in response is reprehensible.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 05:38:34 PM
Did you see the videos?  Repeatedly kissing a restrained boy on the face isn't abuse?  Shaking him while he's being held in between the guy's legs for 15 minutes while his arms are immobilized?  Even if it's not sexual abuse, it's seemingly abuse.

Criminal or not, the guy should not be around children, and UTA's letter in response is reprehensible.
I found no evidence of kissing, I'm not saying that the situation wasn't weird, however, there is nothing criminal in there.

I'm not defending the principles Behavior, but you're obviously repeating allegations you read in the media.

The only evidence is the video, and the video does NOT show kissing.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 05:53:07 PM
I found no evidence of kissing, I'm not saying that the situation wasn't weird, however, there is nothing criminal in there.

I'm not defending the principles Behavior, but you're obviously repeating allegations you read in the media.

The only evidence is the video, and the video does NOT show kissing.

Are we talking about the same video?  The 15 minute one?  Certainly looked like two faces touching to me.

Do you think he should retain his position?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thejerseyguy on May 12, 2016, 05:55:47 PM
Just curiousity why would the fbi be involved in this abuse (assuming it was abuse). Usually they only get juristiction if there
 is email involved which they can call interstate commerce.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 05:56:03 PM
Are we talking about the same video?  The 15 minute one?  Certainly looked like two faces touching to me.

Do you think he should retain his position?
Appears? That's not evidence.

If he should retain his position? Butt out.

Let his community judge him , they are the ones that know him and they are the ones that know the kid.

The community has lots of enemies, and those enemies are seeking to destroy them.

Let them take care of their own garbage.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 06:04:41 PM
Appears? That's not evidence.

If he should retain his position? Butt out.

Let his community judge him , they are the ones that know him and they are the ones that know the kid.

The community has lots of enemies, and those enemies are seeking to destroy them.

Let them take care of their own garbage.

Wow.  That's a really scary mentality you have.  Anywhere else in the normative world, when someone in a position of authority is being investigated for child abuse they're removed from their position pending a resolution. 

Should even one kid get abused because he maintains access to children it's completely on people like you with the "let them police their own" mentality, which has worked so well in the past /sarcasm.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 06:12:25 PM
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.


Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 06:20:10 PM
Wow.  That's a really scary mentality you have.  Anywhere else in the normative world, when someone in a position of authority is being investigated for child abuse they're removed from their position pending a resolution. 

Should even one kid get abused because he maintains access to children it's completely on people like you with the "let them police their own" mentality, which has worked so well in the past /sarcasm.
I see where you're coming from, you appear not to be familiar with the Chareidi culture.

All your information comes from the media comma the difference between you and myself is that you accept the position of the media while I don't accept it lying down.

As a human being, I made the same mistake as you when I read about it, however , once I watched the video up close I realized that I was duped.

On the other hand, it appears that you are more than happy to believe allegation.

And what investigation are you talking about? Who came forward? As far as I know the investigation was being launched due to the leaked video.



Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 06:20:46 PM
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.
Exactly, people like @Aaron will never comprehend such Behavior, yet will be quick to judge.

And that's exactly why he wasn't removed from his position.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: EJB on May 12, 2016, 06:29:14 PM
Exactly, people like @Aaron will never comprehend such Behavior, yet will be quick to judge.

And that's exactly why he wasn't removed from his position.

"Culture" isn't a good defense in court. They might think it's normal, but if the court believes evidence demonstrates abuse (you think it doesn't, others think it does), the fact that it's a "normal satmar behavior" is a reason to investigate more of their schools.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 06:32:18 PM
"Culture" isn't a good defense in court. They might think it's normal, but if the court believes evidence demonstrates abuse (you think it doesn't, others think it does), the fact that it's a "normal satmar behavior" is a reason to investigate more of their schools.
The video won't prove the principal guilty in court either, due to no evidence.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hershelsdeals on May 12, 2016, 06:33:59 PM
I'm leaving this conversation immediately.

This will just go around in circles, never ending
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sillypainter on May 12, 2016, 06:46:37 PM
For THIS SPECIFIC principal it is a normal behaviour. He is the MOST LOVING person on earth, he talks to a 3 year old with the MOST UTMOST respect and love, whenever he talks you can see the love in his eyes, you need to know him to understand what I am talking about, and NO I am NOT his talmud, I just observed him many times, and I admire this person tremendously, so I don't care what you see on the video....It is NOT the full context, you need to actually hear what he is saying to the child.... That alone, that this loyal principal has 40 years of chinuch under his belt and he has a ZERO complaint record and they keep him on his post eventhough he does NOT adhere fully to the Aroiny fraction speaks for itself.

All those haters, keep on hating, nothing will change your minds!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on May 12, 2016, 07:41:17 PM
Let them take care of their own garbage.
Pipe dream
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 08:21:45 PM
I see where you're coming from, you appear not to be familiar with the Chareidi culture.

All your information comes from the media comma the difference between you and myself is that you accept the position of the media while I don't accept it lying down.

As a human being, I made the same mistake as you when I read about it, however , once I watched the video up close I realized that I was duped.

On the other hand, it appears that you are more than happy to believe allegation.

And what investigation are you talking about? Who came forward? As far as I know the investigation was being launched due to the leaked video.

I actually haven't seen anything in the media about this.  The first I heard of it was when someone posted the UTA letter and the 15 min. video in a local Facebook group.  Yes, the video shows the Principal displaying - IMO - inappropriate behavior.  Obviously the police agree as they're now investigating.  And yes, pending an investigation the subject should be removed from his post.

And about my experience; not that it should be relevant, but I am very familiar with Charedi culture, having gone to Yeshivish yeshivas and most of my friends are learning in Lakewood.  But again, it's irrelevant.

The fact that you think Satmar can or will take care of these types of issues on its own speaks volumes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 12, 2016, 08:22:19 PM
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.

What about non-sexual abuse?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 12, 2016, 08:47:45 PM
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.
IDK, looks criminal to me...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 12, 2016, 09:25:54 PM
"Culture" isn't a good defense in court. They might think it's normal, but if the court believes evidence demonstrates abuse (you think it doesn't, others think it does), the fact that it's a "normal satmar behavior" is a reason to investigate more of their schools.

regardless if they think it's normal, and regardless if an adult wants to show love by constant kissing while restrained in a room alone for 15+ minutes, this is not something that the child wants. Nor is it something that is correct for a non-relative or someone in an authority position.
If their school is not yet aware that this is not helpful or loving to the child and/or positive for the child's future, then this is a good time for them to be aware of this.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ilherman on May 12, 2016, 09:34:11 PM
For THIS SPECIFIC principal it is a normal behaviour. He is the MOST LOVING person on earth, he talks to a 3 year old with the MOST UTMOST respect and love, whenever he talks you can see the love in his eyes, you need to know him to understand what I am talking about, and NO I am NOT his talmud, I just observed him many times, and I admire this person tremendously, so I don't care what you see on the video....It is NOT the full context, you need to actually hear what he is saying to the child.... That alone, that this loyal principal has 40 years of chinuch under his belt and he has a ZERO complaint record and they keep him on his post eventhough he does NOT adhere fully to the Aroiny fraction speaks for itself.

All those haters, keep on hating, nothing will change your minds!
Not saying that this is the case here, but usually the people who are into love are the people who end up having inappropriate behaviors...

In any case, you watched the video? It seems very clear what he is doing with the kid back and forth...  :-X
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 09:58:42 PM
regardless if they think it's normal, and regardless if an adult wants to show love by constant kissing while restrained in a room alone for 15+ minutes, this is not something that the child wants. Nor is it something that is correct for a non-relative or someone in an authority position.
If their school is not yet aware that this is not helpful or loving to the child and/or positive for the child's future, then this is a good time for them to be aware of this.
What about non-sexual abuse?

One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 12, 2016, 10:01:32 PM
One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.
Unless i've gone bonkers, that video in no way can be defined as chinuch, sex-ed perhaps? ::) ::)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 10:04:03 PM
Unless i've gone bonkers, that video in no way can be defined as chinuch, sex-ed perhaps? ::) ::)
I watched the video. No sexual abuse.

The video clearly shows a weird, loving, physical, act of satmar chinuch.

For non chassidim, who are not used to such an emotionally engaged chinuch, this can seem so strange that it must be something criminal or sexual..
For me, I just shook my head.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 12, 2016, 10:07:26 PM

I hear ya,but something tells me the prosecutor won't agree with you...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 12, 2016, 10:14:45 PM
I hear ya,but something tells me the prosecutor won't agree with you...
Yeah, but if all they have is this video, and the kid/parents will not cooperate in anyway, there is no case to investigate.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on May 12, 2016, 10:22:07 PM
Yeah, but if all they have is this video, and the kid/parents will not cooperate in anyway, there is no case to investigate.
Is that true?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on May 13, 2016, 01:44:56 AM
Did you see the videos?  Repeatedly kissing a restrained boy on the face isn't abuse?  Shaking him while he's being held in between the guy's legs for 15 minutes while his arms are immobilized?  Even if it's not sexual abuse, it's seemingly abuse.

Criminal or not, the guy should not be around children, and UTA's letter in response is reprehensible.
I feel like I just vomited after I reading this comment.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on May 13, 2016, 02:03:09 AM
Is this topic related to the FBI? If not please move it to its own thread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elit on May 13, 2016, 07:47:02 AM
One mans chinuch is another mans abuse.

It doesn't matter if you are horrified by the chinuch methods or not. It also doesn't matter if you believe the child was uncomfortable or not. Trust me, I have seen children in much much more uncomfortable situations in the hands of authority in my days.... (non sexual)

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the whole episode.  - If you don't like the chinuch at UTA you can send your kids elsewhere.

Is this like that dress where 2 ppl can look at the same thing and see totally different  things
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 13, 2016, 08:39:47 AM

Is this like that dress where 2 ppl can look at the same thing and see totally different  things
-1
No, this is where someone didn't watch the video and is supporting an authority, regardless.

In the 12 min version of the video, where all 12 minutes he is physically restraining the boy against him with his hands and legs, the grown adult authority is also shaking the boy as part of his discipline.
People see that and they may have a variety of opinions of 'this doesn't look right' and 'this is wrong'.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 13, 2016, 09:53:05 AM
-1
No, this is where someone didn't watch the video and is supporting an authority, regardless.

In the 12 min version of the video, where all 12 minutes he is physically restraining the boy against him with his hands and legs, the grown adult authority is also shaking the boy as part of his discipline.
People see that and they may have a variety of opinions of 'this doesn't look right' and 'this is wrong'.
-1

I watched the whole thing. Holding a child close while disciplining is not child abuse. - Gosh, I wonder what you would say if you saw a video of a good old potch or two; which was basically a daily event when I was in school.

This video is classic satmar mannerisms.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: stbaum on May 13, 2016, 10:03:30 AM
apparently if there was evidence of sexual abuse then sending around the video would be considered distributing child pornography? any evidence of that would go directly to the police and no one would be able to see a thing unless they were directly involved. #justsayin
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on May 13, 2016, 10:25:52 AM
I feel like I just vomited after I reading this comment.

When this is your attitude, I'm not surprised.

I did not watch it.
אונז האבן אלע געכאפט פעטש און חדר.
ס'איז אייביג אזוי געווען און ס'וועט אייביג אזוי זיין.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 13, 2016, 10:28:36 AM
When this is your attitude, I'm not surprised.

yes, plus this seems to be a common KJ attitude:

...Holding a child close while disciplining is not child abuse. - Gosh, I wonder what you would say if you saw a video of a good old potch or two; which was basically a daily event when I was in school.
This video is classic satmar mannerisms.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on May 13, 2016, 01:53:44 PM

Let his community judge him , they are the ones that know him and they are the ones that know the kid.


Criminal behavior is not determined by one's community - it is determined by the Courts. Fartig.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 13, 2016, 02:01:10 PM
Criminal behavior is not determined by one's community - it is determined by the Courts. Fartig.

good point. We can completely justify R' Epstein's activity/policy in regard to beating men who refused to give a get for several years, however those actions weren't legal.

Wondering what yesterday's UTA investigation produced: http://abc7ny.com/news/agents-search-yeshiva-after-video-shows-boy-held-close-by-principal/1335123/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Centro on May 13, 2016, 02:36:14 PM
Criminal behavior is not determined by one's community - it is determined by the Courts. Fartig.
The courts determination doesn't change the fact of the story, so don't believe something has or hasn't happened based on what the courts determination was.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on May 13, 2016, 04:22:10 PM
The courts determination doesn't change the fact of the story, so don't believe something has or hasn't happened based on what the courts determination was.

That's fine, as long as you keep in the other half of your mind that the reality is the Courts do determine right and wrong in this country. If you don't like it leave, but don't imagine that your community can set the standards as long as you're here. Crimes may go unpunished if hidden, but it is still crime. All the tirutzim in the world don't change this one bit. If the facts are wrong then its a different story, but wh3n it comes down to interpreting the facts it doesn't matter what Satmar thinks is normal.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on May 15, 2016, 01:48:20 AM
When it comes to sexual abuse many just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it can't happen in their community.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: SamKey on May 15, 2016, 03:39:32 AM
This video is classic satmar mannerisms.
Any Satmar guys here can verify? I went to a Chasidish cheder and although some rabeim had interesting ways of disciplining THAT never happened.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on May 15, 2016, 09:31:08 AM
although some rabeim had interesting ways of disciplining

Reminds me of the line that formed every week by the rabbis desk, for the kids that didn't know the Rashi, we where slapped in the face 2-10 times. And the time I took out of the garbage a paper the rebbi had thrown out ,I was put on his desk, and got 30 slaps in my face.
When my father called the principal to complain he said we should understand him as he's going through hard times in sholom bayis.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Baruch on May 15, 2016, 09:38:31 AM
Reminds me of the line that formed every week by the rabbis desk, of the kids that didn't know the Rashi, we where slapped in the face 2-10 times. And the time I took out of the garbage a paper the rebbi had thrown out ,I was put on his desk, and got 30 slaps in my face.
When my father called the principal to complain he said we should understand his as he's going through hard time in sholom bayis.
Wow!
Besides for child abuse, Halachically the only time you can slap a child is for his good, for any other reason is an issur De'oraisa.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 15, 2016, 09:55:52 AM
Reminds me of the line that formed every week by the rabbis desk, for the kids that didn't know the Rashi, we where slapped in the face 2-10 times. And the time I took out of the garbage a paper the rebbi had thrown out ,I was put on his desk, and got 30 slaps in my face.
When my father called the principal to complain he said we should understand him as he's going through hard times in sholom bayis.
Hmm, but you didn't go off the D.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: A3 on May 15, 2016, 10:02:49 AM
Wow!
Besides for child abuse, Halachically the only time you can slap a child is for his good, for any other reason is an issur De'oraisa.
And who better to know from issur deoraisas then this rabbi?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 15, 2016, 10:16:43 AM
Hmm, but you didn't go off the D.


maybe he didn't, but this non-Ahavas Yisroel/bullying behavior gives 100's of children many good reasons to dislike Torah, etc...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on May 15, 2016, 10:19:13 AM
Hmm, but you didn't go off the D.


First, how do u know!!!
Second I don't think anyone went otd from this, it was the norm. If someone went otd it was for not getting any purpose and geshmak in Yiddishkayt.

BTW this rabbi told us how bad his rebbi was that he would close a drawer on his fingers ad a punishment.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Centro on May 15, 2016, 11:45:40 AM
maybe he didn't, but this non-Ahavas Yisroel/bullying behavior gives 100's of children many good reasons to dislike Torah, etc...
If someone would get badly punished by his teacher in public school for doing bad on his history test he'd be hating the history of the USA??
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2016, 11:46:57 AM
If someone would get badly punished by his teacher in public school for doing bad on his history test he'd be hating the history of the USA??
He may hate academics
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on May 15, 2016, 01:32:21 PM
If someone would get badly punished by his teacher in public school for doing bad on his history test he'd be hating the history of the USA??
-1      Chinuch is more than simply trasmitting facts      A better comparison would be seeing your role models going to jail
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on May 15, 2016, 02:09:48 PM
Subpoena. Big trouble alert.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 15, 2016, 02:12:09 PM
Subpoena. Big trouble alert.
You think he may be an a sexual abuser?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 15, 2016, 02:15:03 PM
interesting how at the beginning of the survelliance video -- sent on What's App -- , the principal walks into the office holding a white object.

He walks over to the desk, places it onto the desk, and then walks to his chair (at which the object was hidden under some items on the desk), and physically pulls the boy to him for the next 12 minutes.
What's interesting about a white object.?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 15, 2016, 02:16:18 PM
What's interesting about a white object

if you see it on the video and then it's hidden under piles on the desk right away, then it's a point-of-interest in a case with a subpoena.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on May 15, 2016, 02:33:49 PM
You think he may be an a sexual abuser?

I didn't review the video too closely or the entire matter.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on May 15, 2016, 02:42:04 PM
I didn't review the video too closely or the entire matter.

anytime a subpoena requests financial/bank records or invoices and payment reports connected with abuse, then it would appear that something has been going on for a while...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on May 15, 2016, 02:44:41 PM
anytime a subpoena requests financial/bank records or invoices and payment reports connected with abuse, then it would appear that something has been going on for a while...

Or they suspect.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: efflpetzel on May 16, 2016, 01:51:09 AM
Any Satmar guys here can verify? I went to a Chasidish cheder and although some rabeim had interesting ways of disciplining THAT never happened.
Yup that's exactly the chinuch we got in chassidishe chadorim,
I mean cbc is an expert on satmerer chinuch
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on September 27, 2016, 02:38:35 PM
Don't think we need a new thread for today's action so just hopping on to this one.

WTH were these people thinking?

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/six-individuals-charged-participating-large-scale-government-benefits-fraud
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 02:52:39 PM
WTH were these people thinking?
Free money?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Tuna Baygel on September 27, 2016, 02:56:59 PM
Free money?
You don't play these games when having 6 digits in assets

They must have put down a really low income to be receiving such high benefits
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on September 27, 2016, 02:57:37 PM
Don't think we need a new thread for today's action so just hopping on to this one.

WTH were these people thinking?

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/six-individuals-charged-participating-large-scale-government-benefits-fraud

Satmar has a "benefits culture" problem.

(Yes, other sects have this problem too, but doesn't come close to the gravity of the problem that exists in Satmar)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 03:01:18 PM
You don't play these games when having 6 digits in assets

They must have put down a really low income to be receiving such high benefits
6 digits in assets is not a lot.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Tuna Baygel on September 27, 2016, 03:06:01 PM
6 digits in assets is not a lot.
Is a lot to cover up!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
The government benefits system punishes responsible savers. Now income and asset planning is a crime?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 03:09:43 PM
Don't think we need a new thread for today's action so just hopping on to this one.

WTH were these people thinking?

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/six-individuals-charged-participating-large-scale-government-benefits-fraud
Just curious; do you have the slightest clue of any of the details of the case that you're asking "What were they thinking"?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
Is a lot to cover up!
It depends what you, or the bleeding heart Harlem activist state prosecutor; defines as covering up.

One of these days contributing to a 401k is going to be a felony. Minorities often have a lower contribution percentage than whites, so their existence must be racist in nature.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 03:40:15 PM
Just curious; do you have the slightest clue of any of the details of the case that you're asking "What were they thinking"?
Did you read the press release?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on September 27, 2016, 03:54:56 PM
Does the gov have automatic access to people's credit card data etc. or do they need a warrant or the like?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 03:56:50 PM
Did you read the press release?
Yes
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2016, 03:59:41 PM
Does the gov have automatic access to people's credit card data etc. or do they need a warrant or the like?

Definitely need a warrant. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 04:01:41 PM
Yes
Not saying if it is true or not but it is laid out in the press release.

From 2001 to 2016, SHLOMO KUBITSHUK, RACHEL KUBITSHUK, NAFTALI ENGLANDER, and HINDA ENGLANDER conspired and engaged in a scheme to obtain government benefits designed for low-income residents, including Section 8 housing subsidies, Medicaid health insurance, and Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (“SNAP”) food stamps, totaling more than $980,000.  In connection with applications for these benefits, they failed to disclose substantial income and financial assets, including a portfolio of multimillion-dollar residential real estate properties.  The defendants also perpetrated the fraud by providing false income affidavits for each other.

From 2007 to 2016, LEIB TEITELBAUM and DEVORAH TEITELBAUM also conspired and engaged in a scheme to obtain government benefits designed for low-income residents, including Section 8 housing subsidies, Medicaid health insurance, and SNAP food stamps, totaling more than $330,000.  In connection with applications for these benefits, they failed to disclose substantial income and financial assets, including a jewelry business and an apartment they owned.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 04:04:50 PM
Not saying if it is true or not but it is laid out in the press release.

From 2001 to 2016, SHLOMO KUBITSHUK, RACHEL KUBITSHUK, NAFTALI ENGLANDER, and HINDA ENGLANDER conspired and engaged in a scheme to obtain government benefits designed for low-income residents, including Section 8 housing subsidies, Medicaid health insurance, and Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (“SNAP”) food stamps, totaling more than $980,000.  In connection with applications for these benefits, they failed to disclose substantial income and financial assets, including a portfolio of multimillion-dollar residential real estate properties.  The defendants also perpetrated the fraud by providing false income affidavits for each other.

From 2007 to 2016, LEIB TEITELBAUM and DEVORAH TEITELBAUM also conspired and engaged in a scheme to obtain government benefits designed for low-income residents, including Section 8 housing subsidies, Medicaid health insurance, and SNAP food stamps, totaling more than $330,000.  In connection with applications for these benefits, they failed to disclose substantial income and financial assets, including a jewelry business and an apartment they owned.
Not very detailed. People generally don't have an apartment or business legally registered in their name that they just forget to mention.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on September 27, 2016, 04:06:21 PM
Not very detailed. People generally don't have an apartment or business legally registered in their name that they just forget to mention.

That's exactly the point, isn't it?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Not very detailed. People generally don't have an apartment or business legally registered in their name that they just forget to mention.
That's exactly the point, isn't it?
We have a winner.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: David Smith on September 27, 2016, 04:14:53 PM
That's exactly the point, isn't it?
Evidently, the press release leaves much out, as it should. Accepting it at face value would smack of ignorance.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sillypainter on September 27, 2016, 04:15:05 PM
Can we stop making the trial in public here............
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 04:25:55 PM
Evidently, the press release leaves much out, as it should. Accepting it at face value would smack of ignorance.
Not saying if it is true or not...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 04:26:40 PM
Can we stop making the trial in public here............
You trying to be funny. This DDF where we beat everything to death.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 27, 2016, 04:39:51 PM
Evidently, the press release leaves much out, as it should. Accepting it at face value would smack of ignorance.
There's a link at the end with all the details.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on September 27, 2016, 05:06:55 PM
You trying to be funny. This DDF where we beat everything to death.
Capital punishment for all...

Off with their heads
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on September 27, 2016, 05:12:12 PM
Capital punishment for all...

Off with their heads
Then there is always the cattle prod if that don't work.  :P
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: coralsnake on September 27, 2016, 05:12:58 PM
Evidently, the press release leaves much out, as it should. Accepting it at face value would smack of ignorance.
It seems as if you know these guys.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on January 12, 2017, 09:54:59 AM
Bump for today, although it's not the FBI.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: grodnoking on January 12, 2017, 09:57:51 AM
Bump for today, although it's not the FBI.
?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 12, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
Bump for today, although it's not the FBI.

is it Monsey or kj?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 12, 2017, 10:42:51 AM
is it Monsey or kj?
Brooklyn and Manhattan
Brooklyn DA
Gas meter bribery scandal
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 12, 2017, 10:44:10 AM
Brooklyn and Manhattan
Brooklyn DA
Gas meter bribery scandal

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ad120 on January 12, 2017, 03:44:31 PM

So who is on the hook? Just this guy or the landlords as well?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 12, 2017, 03:58:46 PM
So who is on the hook? Just this guy or the landlords as well?

seems that there are 40 people involved in this.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on January 12, 2017, 06:02:08 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170112/cf05dc9e6d784d6006c945ed932a592e.jpg)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on January 12, 2017, 06:11:52 PM


[IMG]

I'm just curious if you think that's not L"H or you don't care? (Or just didn't think about it)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on January 12, 2017, 06:14:25 PM

I'm just curious if you think that's not L"H or you don't care? (Or just didn't think about it)

I'm no expert and I've forgotten the phrase since my Yeshiva days but isn't something that's publicly known by x number of people not considered L"H?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on January 12, 2017, 06:18:14 PM
I'm no expert and I've forgotten the phrase since my Yeshiva days but isn't something that's publicly known by x number of people not considered L"H?
Referring to "b’apei tlasa"?
No, but common misconception.You can check the gemora in Erchin 15b if you'd like.
I'm not usually the DDF "kanoi", it's just that I literally just learnt it again this morning so it's still fresh.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 12, 2017, 08:05:35 PM

I'm just curious if you think that's not L"H or you don't care? (Or just didn't think about it)
Its all over the news here in NY.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: grodnoking on January 12, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Can I have a link to an article explaining what happened?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Ergel on January 12, 2017, 08:12:09 PM
You can just type into Google national grid investigation.

In a nutshell, national grid employee illegally installing gas meters for $2500 a piece
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on January 12, 2017, 08:27:22 PM
well its testament to obama, we have come far in race relations.. every one working together
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on January 12, 2017, 08:55:49 PM
You can just type into Google national grid investigation.

In a nutshell, national grid employee illegally installing gas meters for $2500 a piece
Does doing it the right way cost more than that ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on January 12, 2017, 09:00:33 PM
You can just type into Google national grid investigation.

In a nutshell, national grid employee illegally installing gas meters for $2500 a piece
Instead of?  How did they make money off of this?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: grodnoking on January 12, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
Does doing it the right way cost more than that ?
It was time they where worried about.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on January 12, 2017, 09:05:24 PM
It was time they where worried about.
Sounds kinda like the same nonsense that goes on waiting for c of o.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 12, 2017, 09:31:32 PM
Sounds kinda like the same nonsense that goes on waiting for c of o.
Imagine you couldnt get a gas inspection from the City because of some stupid backlog. You're losing money every day because you cant get tenants into apartments without gas. What would you do? Of course you pay $2500 to get a meter. Its not like there was anything stolen here by the landlords. The shyster national grid guys should have to pay back the money and thats the end of it. Why does this have to result in a criminal prosecution where you waste more city resources. Instead of prosecuting this case and wasting taxpayer money, hire some more inspectors and clear your DOB backlog!!!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on January 12, 2017, 09:42:34 PM
Imagine you couldnt get a gas inspection from the City because of some stupid backlog. You're losing money every day because you cant get tenants into apartments without gas. What would you do? Of course you pay $2500 to get a meter. Its not like there was anything stolen here by the landlords. The shyster national grid guys should have to pay back the money and thats the end of it. Why does this have to result in a criminal prosecution where you waste more city resources. Instead of prosecuting this case and wasting taxpayer money, hire some more inspectors and clear your DOB backlog!!!
Sounds like they were bypassing safety rules & regs. But the waiting is insane. People don't have the money to pay all that extra rent while paying mortgage as well.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CZ60 on January 12, 2017, 09:57:55 PM
Sounds like they were bypassing safety rules & regs. But the waiting is insane. People don't have the money to pay all that extra rent while paying mortgage as well.

If they didn't know the risks of buying/building a building without a rent roll yet, then they should probably find something else to do for a living. Either play by the rules or don't play the game. If you play, but not by the rules and get caught doing so, you better be prepared to pay the price.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on January 12, 2017, 10:01:19 PM
If they didn't know the risks of buying/building a building without a rent roll yet, then they should probably find something else to do for a living. Either play by the rules or don't play the game. If you play, but not by the rules and get caught doing so, you better be prepared to pay the price.
1000%. But it's high time for the city go after these agencies as well.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CZ60 on January 12, 2017, 10:05:13 PM
1000%. But it's high time for the city go after these agencies as well.

High time isn't a strong enough phrase. It's not even borderline criminal what these agencies do. It's a legitimate crime. They use their monopoly on public utility to screw customers without giving a damn. There are absolutely no checks and balances on this. I almost can't blame these guys for what they did...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 12, 2017, 10:16:13 PM
If they didn't know the risks of buying/building a building without a rent roll yet, then they should probably find something else to do for a living. Either play by the rules or don't play the game. If you play, but not by the rules and get caught doing so, you better be prepared to pay the price.

High time isn't a strong enough phrase. It's not even borderline criminal what these agencies do. It's a legitimate crime. They use their monopoly on public utility to screw customers without giving a damn. There are absolutely no checks and balances on this. I almost can't blame these guys for what they did...

Which one is it? Make up your mind. Did they take the risk or is the city screwing them?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chinagel on January 12, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
High time isn't a strong enough phrase. It's not even borderline criminal what these agencies do. It's a legitimate crime. They use their monopoly on public utility to screw customers without giving a damn. There are absolutely no checks and balances on this. I almost can't blame these guys for what they did...
as do most govt agencies
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2017, 10:18:20 PM
Is it better than those who brings building inspectors?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 12, 2017, 10:24:36 PM
Is it better than those who brings building inspectors?
I suppose you mean bribe. If the bribe is just to get the darn thing done instead of waiting and waiting its better than if its to look the other way on something thats not up to snuff.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2017, 10:25:50 PM
I suppose you mean bribe. If the bribe is just to get the darn thing done instead of waiting and waiting its better than if its to look the other way on something thats not up to snuff.
Once the bribe is done it will always end up being both
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 12, 2017, 10:32:22 PM
Is it better than those who brings building inspectors?

inspectors is a serious issue, bec if the building is faulty, then it could be a matter of life or death. Those should always be 100%.

With the national Grid, however, when one tenant leaves, it can be 2-3 weeks without hot water and showers. The meter is just a matter of turning it on or off. Not a safety issue. It's a financial issue of transition from one lease to another. It's just a matter of time and gov't delays.

 (This happened to my Bklyn friends who moved there in September!) National grid made them wait 3 weeks until they processed the new lease agreement into their files. Anyone should be able to pay upfront for gas and utilities and get it the next day.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2017, 10:34:43 PM
inspectors is a serious issue, bec if the building is faulty, then it could be a matter of life or death. Those should always be 100%.

With the national Grid, however, when one tenant leaves, it can be 2-3 weeks without hot water and showers. The meter is just a matter of turning it on or off. Not a safety issue. It's a financial issue of transition from one lease to another. It's just a matter of time and gov't delays.

 (This happened to my Bklyn friends who moved there in September!) National grid made them wait 3 weeks until they processed the new lease agreement into their files. Anyone should be able to pay upfront for gas and utilities and get it the next day.
This was about meter inspections.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 12, 2017, 10:37:31 PM
This was about meter inspections.

this link explains that they were able to unlock gas access to those who were shut down: http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=43840&alias=jews-arrested-in-gas-bribery-case

Quote: "They paid Findlay to illegally unlock meters at locations where National Grid had terminated service. This would allow the residences to receive gas temporarily, at least until National Grid noticed the increase in gas usage and sent a technician to lock the line again."
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CZ60 on January 12, 2017, 10:57:00 PM
Which one is it? Make up your mind. Did they take the risk or is the city screwing them?

Why are those mutually exclusive? The city is screwing them and everyone who is in their line of business. Be that as it may, that doesn't give them the right to skirt the law.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 12, 2017, 11:08:49 PM
You have to stay away from gas in NYC, period. National grid's wait time is a joke compared to con ed. Con edison you can be waiting for months. no joke
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2017, 11:12:52 PM
You have to stay away from gas in NYC, period. National grid's wait time is a joke compared to con ed. Con edison you can be waiting for months. no joke
But their prices are very low compares to any other option
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 12, 2017, 11:15:09 PM
But their prices are very low compares to any other option
convert to electric (assuming tenant pays electric), all standard leases should included gas/electric riders. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2017, 11:17:59 PM
convert to electric (assuming tenant pays electric), all standard leases should included gas/electric riders.
True that
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on January 12, 2017, 11:44:20 PM
This is key:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/nyregion/brooklyn-utility-national-grid-meter-scheme.html

"Inspectors with National Grid and the city’s Buildings Department checked the 33 locations involved in the investigation and concluded that the public’s safety was not at risk."

Basically all they did was try to expedite the criminally negligent city bureaucracy.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: good sam on January 13, 2017, 12:51:10 AM
this link explains that they were able to unlock gas access to those who were shut down: http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=43840&alias=jews-arrested-in-gas-bribery-case

Quote: "They paid Findlay to illegally unlock meters at locations where National Grid had terminated service. This would allow the residences to receive gas temporarily, at least until National Grid noticed the increase in gas usage and sent a technician to lock the line again."
There's an old European fellow in my neighborhood, probably in his 90s. Word has it that he made a living from this sort of thing. For a few thousand dollars he would turn on people's water that had been shut off.

But the best part is his method: he had a truck with a hole in the bottom. He'd park on top of the manhole, open it, and lower himself into it to access the water. When he was done, he'd simply drive away.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: JTZ on January 13, 2017, 01:05:13 AM
well its testament to obama, we have come far in race relations.. every one working together
LOL
Wrong thread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Zalc on January 13, 2017, 06:47:52 AM
Does doing it the right way cost more than that ?
Like everything involving real estate inspections in NYC, it costs weeks or months, and the inspection agency's are criminally understaffed.

If they didn't know the risks of buying/building a building without a rent roll yet, then they should probably find something else to do for a living
It's also by renovation empty units...
So you put in all this money into improving a unit, and now you are on the hook for 2 more months of mortgage payments while the "paint drys" because the city can't get their act together...

You would think that HPD et al. would be making enough money from violations and inspections to be properly staffed, but the city just treats landlords as Piñatas, because it's NYC and they can get away with it.

This is Key:
Exactly. It's (usually) not about bypassing public safety rules, just the people implementing them.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on January 13, 2017, 07:37:34 AM
Imagine you couldnt get a gas inspection from the City because of some stupid backlog. You're losing money every day because you cant get tenants into apartments without gas. What would you do? Of course you pay $2500 to get a meter. Its not like there was anything stolen here by the landlords. The shyster national grid guys should have to pay back the money and thats the end of it. Why does this have to result in a criminal prosecution where you waste more city resources. Instead of prosecuting this case and wasting taxpayer money, hire some more inspectors and clear your DOB backlog!!!
How long is the waiting list typically ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 13, 2017, 09:22:58 AM
How long is the waiting list typically ?
A few months.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 13, 2017, 09:39:30 AM
I'm not in this field, so could be I'm wrong, but I think NatGrid gives you a wait period of a few months, nothing to do with the DOB
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on January 13, 2017, 11:31:00 AM
this link explains that they were able to unlock gas access to those who were shut down: http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=43840&alias=jews-arrested-in-gas-bribery-case

Quote: "They paid Findlay to illegally unlock meters at locations where National Grid had terminated service. This would allow the residences to receive gas temporarily, at least until National Grid noticed the increase in gas usage and sent a technician to lock the line again."

The other articles say they were installing meters, which sounds a lot riskier than just unlocking meters.

This is key:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/nyregion/brooklyn-utility-national-grid-meter-scheme.html

"Inspectors with National Grid and the city’s Buildings Department checked the 33 locations involved in the investigation and concluded that the public’s safety was not at risk."

Basically all they did was try to expedite the criminally negligent city bureaucracy.

Yes they ended up being safe, but would you be happy if you found out that your meter was installed by some random ex-employee looking to make a buck? I know it would worry me, after hearing stories about buildings exploding from dubious installations. That's a breach of their tenants trust. So while I don't think they shouldn't get the book thrown at them, it's not like they did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yammer on January 13, 2017, 12:00:27 PM
The other articles say they were installing meters, which sounds a lot riskier than just unlocking meters.

Yes they ended up being safe, but would you be happy if you found out that your meter was installed by some random ex-employee looking to make a buck? I know it would worry me, after hearing stories about buildings exploding from dubious installations. That's a breach of their tenants trust. So while I don't think they shouldn't get the book thrown at them, it's not like they did nothing wrong.
Do you feel safe when some random employee installs your meter?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on January 13, 2017, 12:09:01 PM
Do you feel safe when some random employee installs your meter?

Yes I do, and I fully consent to it.
It's not the landlords rigt to choose an alternative option which is occasionally unsafe.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 13, 2017, 04:07:22 PM
This has nothing to do with unsafe installations, not was anyone getting gas for free. All is that the long long process was cut. Don't think you will hear of buildings exploding from this
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on January 13, 2017, 04:20:56 PM
This has nothing to do with unsafe installations, not was anyone getting gas for free. All is that the long long process was cut. Don't think you will hear of buildings exploding from this

2 wrongs don't make a right.
A landlord has no right to gamble with his tenants safety.
If I was a tenant I'd be furious.   

Imagine one of your relatives/friends who had a successful surgery, finds out later that the doctor was unlicensed. You'd be pissed no mater the outcome.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 13, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
2 wrongs don't make a right.
A landlord has no right to gamble with his tenants safety.
If I was a tenant I'd be furious.   

Imagine one of your relatives/friends who had a successful surgery, finds out later that the doctor was unlicensed. You'd be pissed no mater the outcome.
Again, I don't think this work was done by unlicenced worker, what I believe (could be I'm wrong) is that you were moved up the "waiting list"

FTR this story below had nothing to do with what happened, just trying to point out how NatGrid operates
I have a family member who had an appointment to get gas in a new building, when they came there was some issue (don't remember exactly, not sure even if it was directly with the gas) but the next time they gave an appointment was 3-4 months later
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chff on January 13, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
Given the fact that all the lower bracket here (the bottom of the chart) were all released on little or no bail at all shows the "severity" or thier "crime"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on January 14, 2017, 06:39:59 PM
Given the fact that all the lower bracket here (the bottom of the chart) were all released on little or no bail at all shows the "severity" or thier "crime"
The one paying the bribe is always a lower level than the one taking it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zh cohen on January 14, 2017, 06:48:02 PM
Again, I don't think this work was done by unlicenced worker, what I believe (could be I'm wrong) is that you were moved up the "waiting list"


From the article I read it seems that the meters were installed without the pipes being inspected.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hocker on January 14, 2017, 07:49:25 PM
From the article I read it seems that the meters were installed without the pipes being inspected.
That's part of the lukshen they have to tell the press so people should believe that the police are the good boys. At least someone is clearly falling for it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Mordyk on January 14, 2017, 07:57:25 PM
Anyone know the smallest thing about construction knows how awful the national grid thing is.  They always come 6 months late.  Hopefully this will bring some attention to this issue
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: moko on January 14, 2017, 08:00:17 PM
2 wrongs don't make a right.
A landlord has no right to gamble with his tenants safety.
If I was a tenant I'd be furious.   

Imagine one of your relatives/friends who had a successful surgery, finds out later that the doctor was unlicensed. You'd be pissed no mater the outcome.
imagine one of your friends/relatives who had a successful organ transplant finds out later that the doctor took a "donation to the hospital" to get moved to the front of the line. I'm sure you'd be pissed no matter what the outcome.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hocker on January 14, 2017, 08:38:18 PM
imagine one of your friends/relatives who had a successful organ transplant finds out later that the doctor took a "donation to the hospital" to get moved to the front of the line. I'm sure you'd be pissed no matter what the outcome.
LOL!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zh cohen on January 14, 2017, 08:42:01 PM
imagine one of your friends/relatives who had a successful organ transplant finds out later that the doctor took a "donation to the hospital" to get moved to the front of the line. I'm sure you'd be pissed no matter what the outcome.

imagine one of your friends/relatives was waiting for an organ transplant finds out later that the reason they are still waiting is because the doctor took a "donation to the hospital" from someone else to be moved ahead of them in line. I'm sure you'd be pissed no matter what the outcome.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: moko on January 14, 2017, 10:32:39 PM
imagine one of your friends/relatives was waiting for an organ transplant finds out later that the reason they are still waiting is because the doctor took a "donation to the hospital" from someone else to be moved ahead of them in line. I'm sure you'd be pissed no matter what the outcome.
correct but that was not similar to the argument he made. The argument your making is would be that youre gas meter installation got pushed off 9 months so someone else who paid could get theirs installed in 3 months this assuming it takes 3 months for national grid or con ed to install a meter which is reasonable if your union has a contract with a company that only allows you to order one bolt or nut at a time because that company slid money under the table to get con ed to accept their " lowest" bid
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 10:39:15 PM
This is key:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/nyregion/brooklyn-utility-national-grid-meter-scheme.html

"Inspectors with National Grid and the city’s Buildings Department checked the 33 locations involved in the investigation and concluded that the public’s safety was not at risk."

Basically all they did was try to expedite the criminally negligent city bureaucracy.
By breaking the law
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 10:42:37 PM
Anyone know the smallest thing about construction knows how awful the national grid thing is.  They always come 6 months late.  Hopefully this will bring some attention to this issue
That's the cost of doing business in NYC.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on January 14, 2017, 10:46:05 PM
That's the cost of doing business in NYC.
Source ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 14, 2017, 10:47:53 PM
By breaking the law
Judge jury and executioner. Have you ever done business to know what the cost of doing business is or should be in NY?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 10:49:40 PM
Judge jury and executioner. Have you ever done business to know what the cost of doing business is or should be in NY?
I'm not saying it should be this way.  I'm just saying it is this way and they knew that before they purchased/built apt in NYC
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on January 14, 2017, 10:53:11 PM
I'm not saying it should be this way.  I'm just saying it is this way and they knew that before they purchased/built apt in NYC
Nobody counts on being delayed because of red tape bureaucratic nonsense. There is a reasonable expectation that the city will cooperate.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 10:54:06 PM
Nobody counts on being delayed because of red tape bureaucratic nonsense. There is a reasonable expectation that the city will cooperate.
But they knew in advance it takes months.  It does for everyone and has been for a long time.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 14, 2017, 11:14:00 PM
I'm not saying it should be this way.  I'm just saying it is this way and they knew that before they purchased/built apt in NYC
You obviously are not aware that there is other times you need a meter installation...

Did "they" also know this before they had the issue ??

Gas leaks, low hanging pipes, old meters etc...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 11:17:49 PM
You obviously are not aware that there is other times you need a meter installation...

Did "they" also know this before they had the issue ??

Gas leaks, low hanging pipes, old meters etc...
I understand.  I wasn't taking specifically about this issue.  Everything in NYC takes time and during construction its expected that issues will arise.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 14, 2017, 11:21:57 PM
I understand.  I wasn't taking specifically about this issue.  Everything in NYC takes time and during construction its expected that issues will arise.
National grid and con ed will be very quick to lock/remove a meter. However, to get it back on takes a super long time.

No one is expecting that. When theres a naive tenant that thinks they smell gas and they call utility company (because thats what they hear theyre supposed to do) next thing they know they are without gas with no hope in turning back on for a long time...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 11:22:44 PM
National grid and con ed will be very quick to lock/remove a meter. However, to get it back on takes a super long time.

No one is expecting that. When theres a naive tenant that thinks they smell gas and they call utility company (because thats what they hear theyre supposed to do) next thing they know they are without gas with no hope in turning back on for a long time...
Correct and this is only known in advance.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 14, 2017, 11:23:52 PM
Correct and this is only known in advance.
What are you saying?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
What are you saying?
That u know in advance it takes them a long time to do anything
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 14, 2017, 11:27:51 PM
That u know in advance it takes them a long time to do anything
Who is "u"??
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 14, 2017, 11:32:57 PM
Who is "u"??
Anyone building/buying apt in NYC
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 15, 2017, 12:10:31 AM
Anyone building/buying apt in NYC

National grid and con ed will be very quick to lock/remove a meter. However, to get it back on takes a super long time.

No one is expecting that. When theres a naive tenant that thinks they smell gas and they call utility company (because thats what they hear theyre supposed to do) next thing they know they are without gas with no hope in turning back on for a long time...
Tenants dont buy apartments...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 15, 2017, 12:33:04 AM
Tenants dont buy apartments...

True, but my friends started their rent/lease in Brooklyn this fall and it took National Grid 3 weeks to do the transfer.
So newlyweds had no hot water or gas dryer for 3 weeks.

He was able to go to nearby men's Mikva for showers, but it was harder for her, to go to friend/neighbor each time, etc...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 15, 2017, 01:11:06 PM
True, but my friends started their rent/lease in Brooklyn this fall and it took National Grid 3 weeks to do the transfer.
So newlyweds had no hot water or gas dryer for 3 weeks.

He was able to go to nearby men's Mikva for showers, but it was harder for her, to go to friend/neighbor each time, etc...
Exactly my point. @ya was trying to justify the wait time by saying property owners/contractors should expect a wait time when building or applying for new meters. A lot of service is for existing service and the only ones really losing is the tenants (like your friend)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on January 15, 2017, 01:52:11 PM
Exactly my point. @ya was trying to justify the wait time by saying property owners/contractors should expect a wait time when building or applying for new meters. A lot of service is for existing service and the only ones really losing is the tenants (like your friend)
+1
The maximum time for a smooth switchover like that should be 24-48 hrs. It can be done from their office.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on January 15, 2017, 02:00:17 PM
+1
The maximum time for a smooth switchover like that should be 24-48 hrs. It can be done from their office.
I discussed this on Friday with a friend who's a plumber. He told me that ever since some 2nd avenue explosion, the city has become a lot stricter with inspections, but they didn't increase their workforce for doing inspections.

If gas was shut off to a location for six months, you cannot have it turned on without doing a pressure inspection. So if it's an immediate switch of the account from one tenant to another, that should be smooth, the problem starts when there's a lengthy period with no service.

So in my friend's words, if they were bribing to get an inspection ahead of time, that would be somewhat OK under the circumstances, but hooking up gas after a period with no service, is a major safety issue, and bribing to get that done could be putting people's lives in danger.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: whacked1 on January 15, 2017, 02:02:09 PM
I discussed this on Friday with a friend who's a plumber. He told me that ever since some 2nd avenue explosion, the city has become a lot stricter with inspections, but they didn't increase their workforce for doing inspections.

If gas was shut off to a location for six months, you cannot have it turned on without doing a pressure inspection. So if it's an immediate switch of the account from one tenant to another, that should be smooth, the problem starts when there's a lengthy period with no service.
Nov 2016 new DOB rules make everything a longer....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on January 15, 2017, 02:38:15 PM
Exactly my point. @ya was trying to justify the wait time by saying property owners/contractors should expect a wait time when building or applying for new meters. A lot of service is for existing service and the only ones really losing is the tenants (like your friend)

That's not what @ya was saying at all.
Some people are excusing breaking the law because National Grid is terrible at their job and it's hurting them financially. YA is saying that investors know about the red tape before investing, so it's no excuse to break the law. Dont make the investment if you need to break the law to make money.

No one here is saying that National Grid should make people wait months to turn on service.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on January 15, 2017, 02:49:41 PM
That's not what @ya was saying at all.
Some people are excusing breaking the law because National Grid is terrible at their job and it's hurting them financially. YA is saying that investors know about the red tape before investing, so it's no excuse to break the law. Dont make the investment if you need to break the law to make money.

No one here is saying that National Grid should make people wait months to turn on service.
While National Grid is part of the problem, it seems like the City is the biggest problem, as they are understaffed and backlogged with the inspections.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ya on January 15, 2017, 03:43:19 PM
That's not what @ya was saying at all.
Some people are excusing breaking the law because National Grid is terrible at their job and it's hurting them financially. YA is saying that investors know about the red tape before investing, so it's no excuse to break the law. Dont make the investment if you need to break the law to make money.

No one here is saying that National Grid should make people wait months to turn on service.
Exactly
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Jkhein on June 26, 2017, 09:51:49 AM
Looks like Lakewood was on the map this morning...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 10:00:19 AM
Must be nuts these days to still make dreidlech.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elit on June 26, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/26/lakewood-welfare-fraud/424127001/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 10:30:42 AM
No need to post article. For those that needed details Google is available.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 10:32:43 AM
Why are they looking at private school tuition records ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 10:35:32 AM
Why are they looking at private school tuition records ?

It's the FBI, they look at whatever the heck they want.
Obviously they're trying to figure out expenses to get a better picture of income.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 10:40:47 AM
It's the FBI, they look at whatever the heck they want.
Obviously they're trying to figure out expenses to get a better picture of income.
It sounds like they got it from the schools. CMIIW
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 26, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
It sounds like they got it from the schools. CMIIW

I would assume so.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: HowYaDoin on June 26, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
It's the FBI, they look at whatever the heck they want.
Obviously they're trying to figure out expenses to get a better picture of income.
or figure out who is paying their tuition for them....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 11:27:34 AM
I would assume so.
Wouldn't the schools have to be involved in the crime for the Feds to go through their records ? Could they go through Walmart's computers if one of these people go shopping there ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 11:32:53 AM
Wouldn't the schools have to be involved in the crime for the Feds to go through their records ? Could they go through Walmart's computers if one of these people go shopping there ?
They can subpoena anywhere subject to court approval IINM
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 11:33:04 AM
It sounds like they got it from the schools. CMIIW

I heard a rumor about a school getting raided, but I don't think that's what happened.
According to the FBI complaint, a business they owned was paying out their tuition, and it's easy to get the bank statements.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on June 26, 2017, 11:36:49 AM
No need to post article. For those that needed details Google is available.
Weren't you the one obsessed with not sweeping drugs/suicides under the rug?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 01:21:31 PM
Weren't you the one obsessed with not sweeping drugs/suicides under the rug?
What does that have to do with anything? Its lashon hara or rechilus to post this article. Its the same to post specific information about drug overdoses and suicides. It was sufficient to post what was posted and if one wanted to search, as I did, the information was readily available. Im sorry you cant distinguish the two. Its not even a nuanced difference.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 01:32:44 PM
Why are they looking at private school tuition records ?

I think that they aren't stupid.... That's why....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 01:34:02 PM
You can argue that this isn't even LH... vd"l
The LH is that they were caught.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 01:36:24 PM
I think that they aren't stupid.... That's why....
They can't just raid a school & walk off with their computers to check if X might have committed a crime. They had to have come upon it while investigating a crime.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 26, 2017, 01:38:25 PM
They can't just raid a school & walk off with their computers to check if X might have committed a crime. They had to have come upon it while investigating a crime.

Or they suspected it and came up with some PC to obtain a warrant.  I'd be shocked if they didn't look into it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 01:41:29 PM
They can't just raid a school & walk off with their computers to check if X might have committed a crime. They had to have come upon it while investigating a crime.
They can subpoena anywhere subject to court approval IINM
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 01:42:25 PM
Or they suspected it and came up with some PC to obtain a warrant.  I'd be shocked if they didn't look into it.
What yuneeq said makes the most sense.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 26, 2017, 01:43:48 PM
What yuneeq said makes the most sense.

Schools don't just get raided.  A warrant would be needed regardless.  Whether the school was raided because of the investigation into the fraud or some other independent matter is pretty much irrelevant. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shwarmabob on June 26, 2017, 01:45:37 PM
it seems that they visit every community. What's next? Brooklyn?
What a Hillul haShem
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 01:47:06 PM
Schools don't just get raided.  A warrant would be needed regardless.  Whether the school was raided because of the investigation into the fraud or some other independent matter is pretty much irrelevant.
Im not so sure they would just get a warrant approved because X happens to send his kids there.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 26, 2017, 01:50:17 PM
Im not so sure they would just get a warrant approved because X happens to send his kids there.

I don't think it's very hard to get a warrant.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shwarmabob on June 26, 2017, 01:50:28 PM
isn't it nice of the feds that they got a female agent escorting the ladies and men for the men? A medinah shel chesed
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
I don't think it's very hard to get a warrant.
Its not. Just a better reason is kinda needed.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 01:58:50 PM
Schools don't just get raided.  A warrant would be needed regardless.  Whether the school was raided because of the investigation into the fraud or some other independent matter is pretty much irrelevant.

That is not what I said.
I said it was very easy for the feds to look at the business bank statements that show payments to the school.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 02:02:49 PM
Already nearly 70k views of each of the public FBI complaints.
Sad.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 26, 2017, 02:08:39 PM
That is not what I said.
I said it was very easy for the feds to look at the business bank statements that show payments to the school.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was responding to TimT.

And probable cause is a very low bar so warrants are pretty easy to obtain.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 02:08:52 PM
Its not. Just a better reason is kinda needed.
It is called a subpoena. Not difficult at all. Once there is probably cause against the defendant they can get what they need for the investigation. Similar to when they subpoena IPs from google.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: gozalim on June 26, 2017, 08:19:59 PM
weren't some schools raided upthread for other violations? are these schools not the same ones?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 08:34:43 PM
This seems to have mainly come from the raid on beepers plus. I can't imagine they didn't see it coming.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 08:39:12 PM
This seems to have mainly come from the raid on beepers plus. I can't imagine they didn't see it coming.

According to the docs, one of the couples were notified in 2014 that they were being investigated for Medicaid fraud, and they subsequently started canceling their enrollment in assistance programs over the next few months. I'm sure they saw this coming (at least to a certain extent), but I'm not sure what took so long.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 08:41:31 PM
One other thing to point out is that their credit card usage was part of the picture too. By the time someone tries to explain MS ing to the feds it is too late.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 09:02:17 PM
One other thing to point out is that their credit card usage was part of the picture too. By the time someone tries to explain MS ing to the feds it is too late.

MS is irrelevant to this story, the credit card usage was fairly normal. Yeah potentially if someone is committing financial crimes they should stay away from MS but that's like saying a child abuser should stay away from playgrounds because it will look bad if they catch him abusing kids elsewhere.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 26, 2017, 09:12:32 PM
One other thing to point out is that their credit card usage was part of the picture too. By the time someone tries to explain MS ing to the feds it is too late.
what is MSing?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 09:15:48 PM
MS is irrelevant to this story, the credit card usage was fairly normal. Yeah potentially if someone is committing financial crimes they should stay away from MS but that's like saying a child abuser should stay away from playgrounds because it will look bad if they catch him abusing kids elsewhere.
it probably was not involved in this case but the feds did look at credit card spending. Someone who plays the games with programs is probably better off avoiding MSing. You are correct that by itself it is unlikely to be an issue.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 09:23:40 PM
Someone who plays the games with programs is probably better off avoiding MSing.
+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 26, 2017, 10:15:50 PM
Why are they looking at private school tuition records ?

People need to really watch out. While I don't condone the crime, he was one of many and just got unlucky. He is basically a Korbon.

I have always thought about the FBI investigating how a large family that sends their kids to private schools can be on welfare.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 26, 2017, 10:37:33 PM
People need to really watch out. While I don't condone the crime, he was one of many and just got unlucky. He is basically a Korbon.

I have always thought about the FBI investigating how a large family that sends their kids to private schools can be on welfare.
Doesn't welfare pay vouchers to the schools ? Or is that something else.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 26, 2017, 10:40:59 PM
Doesn't welfare pay vouchers to the schools ? Or is that something else.
That is something else. The welfare in question here are the most common benefits like Section 8, Foodstamps and medicaid.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zh cohen on June 26, 2017, 10:50:44 PM
People need to really watch out. While I don't condone the crime, he was one of many and just got unlucky. He is basically a Korbon.

Are there really that many that make $500k-$1M and are on programs?

(Don't know anything other than what was in the article/charges)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 10:51:20 PM
Are there really that many that make $500k-$1M and are on programs?

(Don't know anything other than what was in the article/charges)
some people doing MS may look like they did.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 26, 2017, 10:53:43 PM
Are there really that many that make $500k-$1M and are on programs?

(Don't know anything other than what was in the article/charges)
No. But many in the $100-200K range. Though I imagine that the fact that they made $1 million per year is probably what triggered a red flag.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on June 26, 2017, 11:06:14 PM
Someone who plays the games with programs is probably better off avoiding MSing.

....or as Hillary would say:

(http://www.vladtv.com/images/size_fs/video_image-466243.jpg)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 11:44:13 PM
....or as Hillary would say:

(http://www.vladtv.com/images/size_fs/video_image-466243.jpg)
I love that one.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 26, 2017, 11:56:19 PM
isn't it nice of the feds that they got a female agent escorting the ladies and men for the men? A medinah shel chesed
Not sure if you meant this tongue in cheek or not, but I agree. You can't blame the FBI for investigating and acting on alleged fraud. And they don't need to come prepared to make religious accommodations. So when they do I think it is a small siman of the medina shel chesed.
 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 26, 2017, 11:57:30 PM
Not sure if you meant this tongue in cheek or not, but I agree. You can't blame the FBI for investigating and acting on alleged fraud. And they don't need to come prepared to make religious accommodations. So when they do I think it is a small siman of the medina shel chesed.

I don't think he was being sarcastic.
I also noticed it and think it was a thoughtful gesture.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Ephraimh on June 27, 2017, 12:05:08 AM
Man, the comments sections in these articles are painful to read. It's sad and brutal at the same time.

I honestly think that publications/outlets who think that their readership audiences might be the subject of these criticisms.. should take these comments sections and start  editorializing with it, to raise awareness that the year is 2017, in the most advanced country in the world, and the time of living in the shadows are over, our neighbors and the government are aware of everything and it's just a matter of time before things get out of hand.

Its an unavoidable ticking time bomb that is going to explode if people aren't aware of how we're perceived and start changing that perception.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 27, 2017, 12:09:35 AM
Man, the comments sections in these articles are painful to read. It's sad and brutal at the same time.

I honestly think that publications/outlets who think that their readership audiences might be the subject of these criticisms.. should take these comments sections and start  editorializing with it, to raise awareness that the year is 2017, in the most advanced country in the world, and the time of living in the shadows are over, our neighbors and the government are aware of everything and it's just a matter of time before things get out of hand.

Its an unavoidable ticking time bomb that is going to explode if people aren't aware of how we're perceived and start changing that perception.
The people that should be taking mussar from the comments sections usually just mach avek, with 'eh, a bunch of anti-semites' and go on playing games.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 27, 2017, 12:39:21 AM
People need to really watch out. While I don't condone the crime, he was one of many and just got unlucky. He is basically a Korbon.

I have always thought about the FBI investigating how a large family that sends their kids to private schools can be on welfare.
Um -1

someone who was making 1 million a year and doing this is not a korbon...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on June 27, 2017, 12:59:25 AM
No. But many in the $100-200K range. Though I imagine that the fact that they made $1 million per year is probably what triggered a red flag.

From programs, you don't get to these numbers.

Are there school vouchers in Lakewood?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
Um -1

someone who was making 1 million a year and doing this is not a korbon...

My point is not that they are innocent (they're not). My point is that they were picked from a pool of many, many people. They got unlucky.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 09:01:20 AM
From programs, you don't get to these numbers.

Are there school vouchers in Lakewood?

I was referring to how much they earn regularly, and still tap into benefits. i.e. they make $200K per year, but still claim benefits.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: AsherO on June 27, 2017, 09:07:09 AM
I was referring to how much they earn regularly, and still tap into benefits. i.e. they make $200K per year, but still claim benefits.

In Brooklyn, making $200k a year with 10 kids, you're struggling...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 27, 2017, 09:08:50 AM
And they don't need to come prepared to make religious accommodations.
SOP and nothing to do with religion.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 09:08:54 AM
In Brooklyn, making $200k a year with 10 kids, you're struggling...

Crazy but true.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 27, 2017, 09:10:39 AM
My point is not that they are innocent (they're not). My point is that they were picked from a pool of many, many people. They got unlucky.
Please give me some of what you are smoking.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 09:13:37 AM
Please give me some of what you are smoking.

lol, if only...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 27, 2017, 09:17:58 AM
My point is not that they are innocent (they're not). My point is that they were picked from a pool of many, many people. They got unlucky.
-1 million


I'm sure most people making 1 million a year aren't claiming section 8, food stamps and Medicaid
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zh cohen on June 27, 2017, 09:20:36 AM
-1 million


I'm sure most people making 1 million a year aren't claiming section 8, food stamps and Medicaid

He didn't say most and he didn't say $1M. There are a lot of people who play games (although not on that level).

The question is if they were targeted because of how much further than others they went
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 27, 2017, 09:42:04 AM
Just heard the FBI is staging again in town. Wonder if they are just collecting documents...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 27, 2017, 09:55:54 AM
My point is not that they are innocent (they're not). My point is that they were picked from a pool of many, many people. They got unlucky.

It has nothing to do with luck.
The FBI leaves nothing to chance.
Even if the pond has lots of fish they like to aim for the biggest fish.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sillypainter on June 27, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
People calm down. You can see from the indictment that this happened many years ago.  They may have made mistakes, looks llike they went off of programs, but the FBI is still here to catch. It's not like they recently had these programs.
 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 27, 2017, 10:00:23 AM
People calm down. You can see from the indictment that this happened many years ago.  They may have made mistakes, looks llike they went off of programs, but the FBI is still here to catch. It's not like they recently had these programs.

Didn't they get off the programs after the investigation began?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 11:18:56 AM
Didn't they get off the programs after the investigation began?

They did, but it was too late. The FBI already had them in the crosshairs and once they do they never let go. (unless your name is Hillary Clinton)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 11:43:58 AM
They did, but it was too late. The FBI already had them in the crosshairs and once they do they never let go. (unless your name is Hillary Clinton)
that wasn't an investigation it was a matter
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 27, 2017, 12:02:03 PM
that wasn't an investigation it was a matter
nothing burger.
FTFY
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on June 27, 2017, 02:11:16 PM
They did, but it was too late. The FBI already had them in the crosshairs and once they do they never let go. (unless your name is Hillary Clinton)
It's like hitting the brakes when the cop saw you speeding. Rarely helps.

I think that we need more community awareness that govt programs is playing with fire. Don't think any of these guys are malicious just blissfully ignorant of the consequences.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
It's like hitting the brakes when the cop saw you speeding. Rarely helps.

I think that we need more community awareness that govt programs is playing with fire. Don't think any of these guys are malicious just blissfully ignorant of the consequences.

Well yes and no. A cop just has to pull you over and give you a ticket. The FBI spent three years of agency time and taxpayer money building the case against these people AFTER they went off the programs.

Quote
Don't think any of these guys are malicious just blissfully ignorant of the consequences

This +1000.

if I were to judge by internet comments, it would appear that these people are as bad as Hitler.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 27, 2017, 02:48:59 PM
Can some explain what MSing is?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 02:51:34 PM
Can some explain what MSing is?

Manufactured Spending.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 27, 2017, 03:08:46 PM
Well yes and no. A cop just has to pull you over and give you a ticket. The FBI spent three years of agency time and taxpayer money building the case against these people AFTER they went off the programs.

This +1000.

if I were to judge by internet comments, it would appear that these people are as bad as Hitler.


Unfortunately, episodes such as these feed into the old canard that the (evil, money hungry) Jews are constantly trying to cheat and steal from the (innocent, hard working) non-Jews. Some people see this as confirmation of their previously held anti-Semitic beliefs.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 27, 2017, 06:37:44 PM
Quote from NJ.com:

"The second wave is planned for as early as dawn Wednesday when authorities are scheduled to move in on three other couples, according to law enforcement sources. After that, warrants will be served to an unknown number of others by Friday and the investigation is continuing. And growing."
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 27, 2017, 07:02:03 PM
Unfortunately, episodes such as these feed into the old canard that the (evil, money hungry) Jews are constantly trying to cheat and steal from the (innocent, hard working) non-Jews. Some people see this as confirmation of their previously held anti-Semitic beliefs.
and some of us without our head buried in the sand see this for what it is, simple greed.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 27, 2017, 07:06:33 PM
and some of us without our head buried in the sand see this for what it is, simple greed.
Wish that that's how most people view it...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 07:44:54 PM
The chillul hashem is unprecedented and frankly unbelievable.

This will be national new by the time the dust settles.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 27, 2017, 07:45:40 PM
The chillul hashem is unprecedented and frankly unbelievable.

This will be national new by the time the dust settles.

Unprecedented?  This happens fairly regularly.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elya on June 27, 2017, 07:47:02 PM
and some of us without our head buried in the sand see this for what it is, simple greed.
The chillul hashem is unprecedented and frankly unbelievable.

This will be national new by the time the dust settles.
+1000
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 07:47:59 PM
Unprecedented?  This happens fairly regularly.
Nah, if reports are true that this is just the beginning..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 27, 2017, 09:41:37 PM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/27/lakewood-raids-send-some-residents-scrambling/432655001
Looks like at least some people woke up
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 27, 2017, 09:45:44 PM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/27/lakewood-raids-send-some-residents-scrambling/432655001
Looks like at least some people woke up

I guess this was their goal.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elit on June 27, 2017, 09:48:42 PM
The chillul hashem is unprecedented and frankly unbelievable.

This will be national new by the time the dust settles.
unbelievable? really you haven't heard stories of this forever?
this was inevitable...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elit on June 27, 2017, 09:51:57 PM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/27/lakewood-raids-send-some-residents-scrambling/432655001
Looks like at least some people woke up
oy! what a massive painful chillul hashem...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: gozalim on June 27, 2017, 10:08:50 PM
If I understand the articel, they weren't making $1M (unreported). they were making a few $100K and collected benefits valued at $1M (over a few years of medicaid premiums/Sec8 etc.)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 27, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
If I understand the articel, they weren't making $1M (unreported). they were making a few $100K and collected benefits valued at $1M (over a few years of medicaid premiums/Sec8 etc.)

No, some were making over a million unreported, but benefited a few hundred k in assistance. However they collectively benefited over a million in assistance between all those arrested.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 10:36:35 PM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/27/lakewood-raids-send-some-residents-scrambling/432655001
Looks like at least some people woke up
Dh should really just zip it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 27, 2017, 10:38:19 PM
DH?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 27, 2017, 10:40:40 PM
DH?
This pearl of wisdom:

"The pressure of the community overhead – especially the (cost of) private schooling – is unsustainable," he said about the Jewish community. "People are forced to find ways to bend the system."
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 27, 2017, 10:42:12 PM
Dh should really just zip it.

+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 10:47:17 PM
Dh should really just zip it.
+1000000000000+
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 10:56:53 PM
I wonder how many people are losing sleep tonight over this.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 27, 2017, 11:08:39 PM
That's the whole point. Not sure you can blame them for being such achzurim, people become emotionally invested in whatever job they do.
The point is fur them to be afraid and stop before they are caught. That is not mean. It would be much meaner if they dragged people of in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Kabrams1618 on June 27, 2017, 11:30:06 PM
International news
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ben89 on June 27, 2017, 11:41:25 PM
Yes it's a chillul hashem but I'm sure plenty of goyim are doing this too. Anti-semites!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 27, 2017, 11:53:04 PM
More arrested
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Baruch on June 27, 2017, 11:56:39 PM
More arrested
link?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ben89 on June 27, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
More arrested
source?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on June 28, 2017, 12:14:42 AM
source?

planning more raids tomorrow. Link: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/more_arrests_coming_in_lakewood_di_ionno.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 12:15:16 AM
source?
whatsapp. 4 arrests.  Names & addresses posted. I guess story will post tomorrow somewhere if true.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: MisterHock on June 28, 2017, 06:11:55 AM
whatsapp. 4 arrests.  Names & addresses posted. I guess story will post tomorrow somewhere if true.
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/28/lakewood-welfare-fraud-arrests-continue/434666001/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yuneeq on June 28, 2017, 06:43:56 AM
planning more raids tomorrow. Link: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/more_arrests_coming_in_lakewood_di_ionno.html

They expedited the arrests due to those reports
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 07:30:43 AM
whatsapp. 4 arrests.  Names & addresses posted. I guess story will post tomorrow somewhere if true.
6 per link just posted
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 07:44:18 AM
What interests me is what specific laws were broken. As an outsider to this community, I always had the impression that "government shtick" skirted the line of what is/isn't legal but remained legal. Or at least that the perpetrators were confident it was legal. Anyone else or was my impression totally off? I guess that'll come out over time.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 08:00:52 AM
They expedited the arrests due to those reports
So they done for now?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 08:05:56 AM
So they done for now?
According to the nj.com article more still before the end of the week.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 08:14:20 AM
What interests me is what specific laws were broken. As an outsider to this community, I always had the impression that "government shtick" skirted the line of what is/isn't legal but remained legal. Or at least that the perpetrators were confident it was legal. Anyone else or was my impression totally off? I guess that'll come out over time.

Seriously?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 08:17:55 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/06/hot-summer-in-dc-will-you-be-kicked-off-your-health-insurance-plan-the-lakewood-vaads-vigilance-to-protect-lakewood-families.html (http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/06/hot-summer-in-dc-will-you-be-kicked-off-your-health-insurance-plan-the-lakewood-vaads-vigilance-to-protect-lakewood-families.html)

See last section titled "Not on Bread Alone Can Man Live"
I am sure these families all feel helped by such advocacy.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 08:21:30 AM
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/28/lakewood-welfare-fraud-arrests-continue/434666001/
A payroll company....

#worried
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 08:56:34 AM
What interests me is what specific laws were broken. As an outsider to this community, I always had the impression that "government shtick" skirted the line of what is/isn't legal but remained legal. Or at least that the perpetrators were confident it was legal. Anyone else or was my impression totally off? I guess that'll come out over time.

To clarify: claiming that you make below X income in order to take government benefits is unequivocally illegal.Doing it for many year across many programs, is very illegal. If you or someone you know has done this to the scale being reported now, I'd recommend speaking to an attorney before an arrest warrant comes to see if there's a way out.

 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
To clarify: claiming that you make below X income in order to take government benefits is unequivocally illegal.Doing it for many year across many programs, is very illegal. If you or someone you know has done this to the scale being reported now, I'd recommend speaking to an attorney before an arrest warrant comes to see if there's a way out.
I would say -1 but I'll give you benefit of the doubt that you meant "falsely" claiming. What I was referring to is stretching definitions of religious income, claiming your wife and baby mama of 8 is just your girlfriend, or putting things in other people's name's so it's not "your income". I thought legal vehicles were being abused. The surprise to me (and I don't live in Lakewood so maybe I was just naive) here is that even by the letter of the law there has been massive illegal activity apparently.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jye on June 28, 2017, 09:23:31 AM
At least some of these families have special needs children. Is this what they were after?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 09:25:42 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...
 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 09:26:53 AM
I would say -1 but I'll give you benefit of the doubt that you meant "falsely" claiming. What I was referring to is stretching definitions of religious income, claiming your wife and baby mama of 8 is just your girlfriend, or putting things in other people's name's so it's not "your income". I thought legal vehicles were being abused. The surprise to me (and I don't live in Lakewood so maybe I was just naive) here is that even by the letter of the law there has been massive illegal activity apparently.
A bunch of your examples are against actual laws, not just spirit. Putting income to others, and getting married religiously but not civiliy are both illegal. The marriage thing, however, might only be illegal for the officiant, not the couple.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 09:32:16 AM
A bunch of your examples are against actual laws, not just spirit. Putting income to others, and getting married religiously but not civiliy are both illegal. The marriage thing, however, might only be illegal for the officiant, not the couple.
I hear where you are coming from - but I think there is grey area depending on the type of occupation and income we are talking about. Or at least I thought so.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 09:36:03 AM
he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community
This.

Just to get into the newspaper again. Who is he?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 09:43:32 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...

Bad comparison. None of the " crimes" you mention would ever makes the papers if discovered.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Bad comparison. None of the " crimes" you mention would ever makes the papers if discovered.

Who cares what would or wouldn't make the papers? Everyone here is obsessed with the term "illegal". First check to make sure you are not doing anything illegal, then move on to judge others.

Besides, if there was a large scale investigation into those above-mentioned things, and it was discovered that millions traded hands, it most certainly would make the papers.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 09:48:50 AM
Who cares what would or wouldn't make the papers? Everyone here is obsessed with the term "illegal". First check to make sure you are not doing anything illegal, then move on to judge others.

Besides, if there was a large scale investigation into those above-mentioned things, and it was discovered that millions traded hands, it most certainly would make the papers.

The point is Chillul Hashem.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 09:49:46 AM
Bad comparison. None of the " crimes" you mention would ever makes the papers if discovered.
I wasn't aware there were special dispensations in Halacha that would allow stealing, lying, Chillul Hashem, and not following Dina DeMalchusa Dina because it was difficult.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 09:51:51 AM
I wasn't aware there were special dispensations in Halacha that would allow stealing, lying, Chillul Hashem, and not following Dina DeMalchusa Dina because it was difficult.

No one said there is. Just one is guaranteed to make the papers and the other is not. One is guaranteed to make a Chilul Hashem and the other is not.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on June 28, 2017, 09:52:26 AM
At least some of these families have special needs children. Is this what they were after?
Yes. This way they have much larger benefits from medicaid so they can allege these millions stolen. In reality, getting medicaid illegally should be counted as the value of the insurance coverage which is max 20-30k a year, but the feds count the actual medicaid claims paid out.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 09:55:05 AM
Yes. This way they have much larger benefits from medicaid so they can allege these millions stolen. In reality, getting medicaid illegally should be counted as the value of the insurance coverage which is max 20-30k a year, but the feds count the actual medicaid claims paid out.

Not only that, but they combine all the people they arrested and report a collective amount of benefits stolen. It's purely to make headlines and make the crime look deeper and darker than it is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 09:55:54 AM
Yes. This way they have much larger benefits from medicaid so they can allege these millions stolen. In reality, getting medicaid illegally should be counted as the value of the insurance coverage which is max 20-30k a year, but the feds count the actual medicaid claims paid out.
-1 the state paid out the money.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 09:58:57 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...
Selling miles may not necessarily be a taxable event. The IRS has been dealing with this for years and so far earning miles for a cc sign up is nontaxable, so if you are selling nontaxable miles in exchange for cash one can argue it is just an exchange in kind and would not trigger any taxes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dawie on June 28, 2017, 09:59:27 AM
I would say -1 but I'll give you benefit of the doubt that you meant "falsely" claiming. What I was referring to is stretching definitions of religious income, claiming your wife and baby mama of 8 is just your girlfriend, or putting things in other people's name's so it's not "your income". I thought legal vehicles were being abused. The surprise to me (and I don't live in Lakewood so maybe I was just naive) here is that even by the letter of the law there has been massive illegal activity apparently.
iv'e been doing working with lower income people for 20 years and have never seen this once in lakewood (splitting the household claiming two sets of programs)
Maybe i'm naive, or just blind
I see it in Newark, Camden, Jersey City and NYC everyday
and frankly i think the commentators in the APP and the like are trying to perpetuate this blood libel
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sky121 on June 28, 2017, 10:00:13 AM
At least some of these families have special needs children. Is this what they were after?
Seriously? Should they have skipped over that arrest to the next guy who has all healthy 'average' children?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 28, 2017, 10:01:51 AM
-1 the state paid out the money.
Why? Doesn't the insurance company pay the claims and the state pay the premiums?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: elya on June 28, 2017, 10:02:45 AM
App.com is down!!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 28, 2017, 10:03:42 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...
Best post of this thread!!
All the self righteous ones should very care full.  Hard to find someone that does everything by the book.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 10:07:09 AM
If you want to get upset at self righteous people aim it at this guy. http://forward.com/scribe/375728/in-lakewood-sometimes-corruption-and-greed-get-in-the-way-of-the-torah/
I think it behooves us to be עמדו ולקחו מוסר, not to kler if those arrested are evil, or if Lakewood is worse than Newark. All that doesn't really matter at all.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 10:07:26 AM
Selling miles may not necessarily be a taxable event. The IRS has been dealing with this for years and so far earning miles for a cc sign up is nontaxable, so if you are selling nontaxable miles in exchange for cash one can argue it is just an exchange in kind and would not trigger any taxes.
thanks for the good laugh.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 10:15:44 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...

The complaint says the [deleted], who earned approximately $1.8 million in 2013, exploited $178,000 from Medicaid, Section 8 housing and SNAP food benefits.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dawie on June 28, 2017, 10:18:07 AM
The complaint says the [deleted], who earned approximately $1.8 million in 2013, exploited $178,000 from Medicaid, Section 8 housing and SNAP food benefits.
some of the things they count as income are ridiculous (money from cashing out a refi?)
and what they count as benefits is worse (hospital bills that medicaid paid for, that would have been coverage by any insurance)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 10:23:08 AM
some of the things they count as income are ridiculous (money from cashing out a refi?)
and what they count as benefits is worse (hospital bills that medicaid paid for, that would have been coverage by any insurance)

Good point. I doubt they used IRS rules in determining taxable income.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 10:24:42 AM
You guys are to funny. This is very simple. They got caught. If you cant do the time then don't do the crime.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 10:26:08 AM


some of the things they count as income are ridiculous (money from cashing out a refi?)
and what they count as benefits is worse (hospital bills that medicaid paid for, that would have been coverage by any insurance)

Why is cashing out a refi not income? Why is having medicaid paying a bill for you illegitimately not a benefit?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 28, 2017, 10:26:33 AM
Good point. I doubt they used IRS rules in determining taxable income.
+1. Every program has different criteria for what needs to be included in reporting income. The FBI is not as knowledgeable and judicious as people think.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 10:27:33 AM
+1. Every program has different criteria for what needs to be included in reporting income. The FBI is not as knowledgeable and judicious as people think.

Simple example. You sell your house for $700k and FBI says you made $700k+ in 2017.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 10:28:59 AM
iv'e been doing working with lower income people for 20 years and have never seen this once in lakewood (splitting the household claiming two sets of programs)
Maybe i'm naive, or just blind
I see it in Newark, Camden, Jersey City and NYC everyday
and frankly i think the commentators in the APP and the like are trying to perpetuate this blood libel
Not sure what you are saying... are you saying you don't think this is happening? The stats in the App article are evidence that this is happening. The median income in lakewood is 1/3rd that of a neighboring town with similar property values. Which means they are reporting much less income than the neighboring town while living in the same kinds of houses. It is pretty clear that this is happening on a large scale. No other way to explain it. Folks living in houses valued over 500k and are signed up for benefits designed for the destitute. I just thought they were acting legally (not addressing whether or not it is morally reprehensible). I guess we'll find out how they fare in court but seems like no.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 28, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
Property values are not a good way to judge this. In the non-Jewish world neighborhoods consist of similar income families. Not so in frum communiteis. You have bungalows next door to mansions, which raise everyone's property values.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dawie on June 28, 2017, 10:33:23 AM
Not sure what you are saying... are you saying you don't think this is happening? The stats in the App article are evidence that this is happening. The median income in lakewood is 1/3rd that of a neighboring town with similar property values. Which means they are reporting much less income than the neighboring town while living in the same kinds of houses. It is pretty clear that this is happening on a large scale. No other way to explain it. Folks living in houses valued over 500k and are signed up for benefits designed for the destitute. I just thought they were acting legally (not addressing whether or not it is morally reprehensible). I guess we'll find out how they fare in court but seems like no.
Just the 2 sets of programs per family part
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hvaces42 on June 28, 2017, 10:34:43 AM
Not sure what you are saying... are you saying you don't think this is happening? The stats in the App article are evidence that this is happening. The median income in lakewood is 1/3rd that of a neighboring town with similar property values. Which means they are reporting much less income than the neighboring town while living in the same kinds of houses. It is pretty clear that this is happening on a large scale. No other way to explain it. Folks living in houses valued over 500k and are signed up for benefits designed for the destitute. I just thought they were acting legally (not addressing whether or not it is morally reprehensible). I guess we'll find out how they fare in court but seems like no.
Did you ever take into consideration that none of the people living in those houses, or a very small percentage, actually own the houses in their own names and ot could be parents or siblings who own them. So they may actually be destitute and qualify for benefits while living in the same houses as the neighboring town.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 10:36:54 AM
Did you ever take into consideration that none of the people living in those houses, or a very small percentage, actually own the houses in their own names and ot could be parents or siblings who own them. So they may actually be destitute and qualify for benefits while living in the same houses as the neighboring town.
I believe hud in Lakewood forbade that about 15 years ago
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 10:37:26 AM
Why? Doesn't the insurance company pay the claims and the state pay the premiums?
Don't have enough information to answer.. very probable that the state self insures... Using HMO's etc.

You can't buy these plans from for profit insurance companies..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 28, 2017, 10:38:30 AM
I believe hud in Lakewood forbade that about 15 years ago
But existings were grandfathered in.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
Simple example. You sell your house for $700k and FBI says you made $700k+ in 2017.
That's just ridiculous.. I read some of the complaints and the financial stuff on there really seems like garbage...

"A check from LLC was cashed". - was this income? Return of capital? A loan? Etc etc
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 10:43:49 AM
But existings were grandfathered in.
Before most of the subject houses were built?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zh cohen on June 28, 2017, 10:44:06 AM
That's just ridiculous.. I read some of the complaints and the financial stuff on there really seems like garbage...

"A check from LLC was cashed". - was this income? Return of capital? A loan? Etc etc

In the one complaint that I read, it said that when they filed taxes they claimed it as income.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 10:44:16 AM
Did you ever take into consideration that none of the people living in those houses, or a very small percentage, actually own the houses in their own names and ot could be parents or siblings who own them. So they may actually be destitute and qualify for benefits while living in the same houses as the neighboring town.
Oh this house? It's my parents'. Oh that income? It's my husband's. I have no income so give me medicaid and food stamps. This is where the sketchy vs legal stuff comes in. I don't know enough about the law, that was my point.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: flyingace on June 28, 2017, 10:47:28 AM
Before most of the subject houses were built?
Not when you are looking at the town as a whole, which is what the article is doing. And many of the HUD consumers are that old. It's been very hard to get HUD in recent years.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 10:51:36 AM


. It's been very hard to get HUD in recent years.

y'know why?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 28, 2017, 11:02:56 AM
I see there are a lot of very righteous members of DDF.

Life is not binary. Life is not black and white. The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive. DH, whether you like it or not, said it exactly right. Maybe he shouldn't have aired the dirty laundry of the community, but what he said is true.

I'm curious how many people here that פארקויפן זייער מיילס report it as income. I'm curious how many people here ליגענען וועגן זייער פרנסה to get approved for credit cards.

I'm not G-D forbid saying it's justified. It's not. But those who live in a glass house...

DH's statement - besides being a moronic thing to publicize - is pure BS.  Were these families living with 6 children per bedroom sleeping on mattresses on the floor?  Were they sharing a box of pasta for dinner every night?  No, they weren't.  They wanted their cake and to eat it too.  Pure greed and/or entitlement.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
Good point. I doubt they used their own rules in determining reportable income.
FTFY
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 11:05:31 AM
Were these families living with 6 children per bedroom sleeping on mattresses on the floor?  Were they sharing a box of pasta for dinner every night?

The families that got arrested? No.

The vast majority of families claiming benefits while ineligible? Possibly, or possibly they don't want it to come to that.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 11:08:03 AM
The families that got arrested? No.

The vast majority of families claiming benefits while ineligible? Possibly, or possibly they don't want it to come to that.

I doubt the FBI is going to roundup people making a few thousand more than reported.
They're going after the big fish clearly.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ilherman on June 28, 2017, 11:08:07 AM

Why is cashing out a refi not income? Why is having medicaid paying a bill for you illegitimately not a benefit?
BS. They benefited illegally from Medicaid. Lets just say that medicaid had to pay for Insurance $10k per year. THIS is what they benefited illegally. Why the hell should they be charged with what the Hospital costed the Insurance company.  The Insurance policy to itself was fine. Maybe they should be charged with what the mother cooked for supper? Since its because of the medicaid that she was able to be taken care of in the Hospital, and because of the Hospital she was able to return home early, so she has to pay for everything she was able to do for the time she was home because of the Hospitals care??
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:10:12 AM
I believe hud in Lakewood forbade that about 15 years ago
It is Fed regulations which forbade that. Someone involved showed me numbers that its effect in Lakewood was MUCH less than in many other non-frum parts of the country. It was only for direct blood relatives so a brother-in-law could still own.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Aaaron on June 28, 2017, 11:10:52 AM
I doubt the FBI is going to roundup people making a few thousand more than reported.
They're going after the big fish clearly.

Exactly.  They're not going after the one's who were "forced."  They're going after the ones they perceived were egregious violators. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 11:12:00 AM
Exactly.  They're not going after the one's who were "forced."  They're going after the ones they perceived were egregious violators.

Hopefully, but we don't know yet. Meanwhile, hundreds of families are terrified, calling and asking for amnesty...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 11:13:37 AM
BS. They benefited illegally from Medicaid. Lets just say that medicaid had to pay for Insurance $10k per year. THIS is what they benefited illegally. Why the hell should they be charged with what the Hospital costed the Insurance company.  The Insurance policy to itself was fine. Maybe they should be charged with what the mother cooked for supper? Since its because of the medicaid that she was able to be taken care of in the Hospital, and because of the Hospital she was able to return home early, so she has to pay for everything she was able to do for the time she was home because of the Hospitals care??
A) lomdus is not law
b) are you sure that's whats happening?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:13:59 AM
I doubt the FBI is going to roundup people making a few thousand more than reported.
They're going after the big fish clearly.
One of the families which lives not far from me is definitely living a lower income lifestyle. Maybe not 6 kids in a half bedroom and sharing a bag of beans for supper, but not a luxurious lifestyle by any means.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Toasted on June 28, 2017, 11:14:28 AM
DH's statement - besides being a moronic thing to publicize - is pure BS.  Were these families living with 6 children per bedroom sleeping on mattresses on the floor?  Were they sharing a box of pasta for dinner every night?  No, they weren't.  They wanted their cake and to eat it too.  Pure greed and/or entitlement.
I can guarantee every one of these families started taking programs when they were 100% eligible. Once you're hooked to this free money faucet, it's very difficult to stop. Almost like substance addiction, people who were recently poor have a hard time parting with their survival mindset. If we can assign some medical diagnosis to this, maybe the feds would respect their rights. If a man can feel like a girl, a prince can feel like a pauper. 🌈
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: HowYaDoin on June 28, 2017, 11:16:10 AM
If a man can feel like a girl, a prince can feel like a pauper. 🌈

LOVE IT
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 11:17:00 AM
One of the families which lives not far from me is definitely living a lower income lifestyle. Maybe not 6 kids in a half bedroom and sharing a bag of beans for supper, but not a luxurious lifestyle by any means.
Plenty of rich people don't live a luxurious lifestyle, but what does that have to do with income?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:21:13 AM
Plenty of rich people don't live a luxurious lifestyle, but what does that have to do with income?
It doesn't, but I have no way of really knowing what their income is. He definitely seems like he could use the programs.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 11:22:37 AM
2 cents: there's a mindset in town that 'justifies' such behavior. 1) the enormous expense of a Jewish lifestyle vs. A non Jew 2) the taxes being paid for the benefits of those not contributing at all wether it's the benefits of large families that get hundreds of thousands simply bec they choose to learn and not work or the public school system (most student come from families not contributing at all to townships bottom line).....It's very lopsided. Middle class is desperate. Obviously it's illegal.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:30:19 AM
My grandfather had numerous conversations with R' Aharon Kotler ZTL about how the numbers would add up for kollel yungeleit. The way things are being done now have zero relation at all to R' Aharon's vision. R' Aharon had the numbers worked out. Part of his cheshbon included BMG not looking the way it does now.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 11:33:25 AM
Part of his cheshbon included BMG not looking the way it does now.
or Lkwd in general
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 11:34:05 AM
or Lkwd in general
true that.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jye on June 28, 2017, 11:39:11 AM
When there are special needs kids involved the Medicaid dollar amounts are going to automatically be very high. That's probably what made some of these families targets....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
2 cents: there's a mindset in town that 'justifies' such behavior. 1) the enormous expense of a Jewish lifestyle vs. A non Jew 2) the taxes being paid for the benefits of those not contributing at all wether it's the benefits of large families that get hundreds of thousands simply bec they choose to learn and not work or the public school system (most student come from families not contributing at all to townships bottom line).....It's very lopsided. Middle class is desperate. Obviously it's illegal.

It's time for the government to start issuing private school vouchers. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would be a good start.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yr on June 28, 2017, 11:56:47 AM
BS. They benefited illegally from Medicaid. Lets just say that medicaid had to pay for Insurance $10k per year. THIS is what they benefited illegally. Why the hell should they be charged with what the Hospital costed the Insurance company.  The Insurance policy to itself was fine. Maybe they should be charged with what the mother cooked for supper? Since its because of the medicaid that she was able to be taken care of in the Hospital, and because of the Hospital she was able to return home early, so she has to pay for everything she was able to do for the time she was home because of the Hospitals care??

I don't remember all the details but someone I know who was involved in a much smaller case, had to pay a fine plus the premiums for continuing on medicaid. He didn't have to pay actual benefits. Although in the vast majority of cases, premiums exceed benefits, unless there was a hospitalization  (which I guess is common for women in their 20's and 30's).

In that case there was no FBI or anything. I think it was just the programs' agencies themselves. It was in New York.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 12:03:52 PM
It's time for the government to start issuing private school vouchers. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would be a good start.
or for everyone to go to public school
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:08:23 PM
It's time for the government to start issuing private school vouchers. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would be a good start.
It is the governments responsibility to fx this?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Hjay on June 28, 2017, 12:11:02 PM
My grandfather had numerous conversations with R' Aharon Kotler ZTL about how the numbers would add up for kollel yungeleit. The way things are being done now have zero relation at all to R' Aharon's vision. R' Aharon had the numbers worked out. Part of his cheshbon included BMG not looking the way it does now.
Mind elaborating?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 28, 2017, 12:12:25 PM
Mind elaborating?
he's referring to the lavish lifestyle I assume
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 12:12:31 PM
Look, they know the rules when they sign up. If you want to live in a nice house, while learning in Kollel with a large family, and sending everyone to private school, obviously there's going to be a gap between income and expenses. That's not a chiddush. Work on changing laws for benefits, not lying to fit in to the system.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:15:18 PM
Look, they know the rules when they sign up. If you want to live in a nice house, while learning in Kollel with a large family, and sending everyone to private school, obviously there's going to be a gap between income and expenses. That's not a chiddush. Work on changing laws for benefits, not lying to fit in to the system.
And in the meantime?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 12:16:01 PM
And in the meantime?
Find a city with tuition vouchers that aren't income based?
Find a job and make time for learning?

Either are better than going to jail and having someone else raise your kids...this should be a wake-up call.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:18:04 PM
Find a city with tuition vouchers that aren't income based?
Find a job and make time for learning?

Either are better than going to jail and having someone else raise your kids...
When 10s of 1000s of families move there it will become income based pretty fast.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:18:08 PM
Mind elaborating?
he's referring to the lavish lifestyle I assume
The lavish lifestyle is a given and does not require a conversation with R' Aharon. His vision did not include kollel yungeleit living off a bare pittance of a kollel check. He understood that to have a larger payout it would mean fewer yungeliet as well as more torahdike balei batim supporting them (percentage wise). Those are the basics of it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:21:46 PM
The lavish lifestyle is a given and does not require a conversation with R' Aharon. His vision did not include kollel yungeleit living off a bare pittance of a kollel check. He understood that to have a larger payout it would mean fewer yungeliet as well as more torahdike balei batim supporting them (percentage wise). Those are the basics of it.
You can't complain that too many ppl are in kollel. That's definitely not what R' Aaron would do.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 12:24:15 PM
You can't complain that too many ppl are in kollel. That's definitely not what R' Aaron would do.
Really? You are mistaken.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 12:24:40 PM
When 10s of 1000s of families move there it will become income based pretty fast.
There are hundreds of families that have moved to CLE just this year.
Housing prices are up 20-50% since the vouchers started a few years ago. School enrollment is also up by unprecedented numbers.
We'll see what gives first.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:24:49 PM
You can't complain that too many ppl are in kollel. That's definitely not what R' Aaron would do.
I am not, my poin is simply that R' Aharon did NOT feel that there should be people in kollel with no cheshbon of how to make the numbers work. If you can get the numbers to work then great but they need to.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
Find a city with tuition vouchers that aren't income based?
Find a job and make time for learning?

Either are better than going to jail and having someone else raise your kids...this should be a wake-up call.
its the learning people that dont have the issue. They very well fall within the brackets for benefits. A kollel guy that goes to work to make 60k or whatever it is.....you may have to give up on 100k worth of benifits....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 12:27:52 PM
If the only way to make your lifestyle work is to lie and cheat, you're a criminal, not a tzaddik.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:28:00 PM
Really? You are mistaken.
How so?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 12:28:51 PM
I'm not talking about someone who occasionally lies, or is more or less following the law but takes some money off the books periodically. I'm talking about a deliberate plan to take 10s of thousands in benefits over many years. There's also a difference between a Shev V'Al Taaseh of not reporting something vs. A Kum V'Asieh of filling out forms that are knowingly wrong.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 28, 2017, 12:29:35 PM
its the learning people that dont have the issue. They very well fall within the brackets for benefits.
It is the learning people that have these issues. It's just that it's is during the transition out of Kollel when the problem start.
There needs to be a process/direction for people to wean themselves off the programs etc.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 12:30:29 PM
its the learning people that dont have the issue. They very well fall within the brackets for benefits. A kollel guy that goes to work to make 60k or whatever it is.....you may have to give up on 100k worth of benifits....
Well that goes back to the need for an education...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:32:01 PM
Well that goes back to the need for an education...
Lots of educated ppl don't make too much money.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:32:16 PM
Well that goes back to the need for an education...
How many fields can one get a starting job right out of school for 100k?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 12:32:31 PM
Lots of educated ppl don't make too much money.
That depends on what they're educated in.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 12:34:16 PM
http://nj1015.com/lakewood-welfare-fraud-its-too-easy-and-not-just-orthodox-jews-to-blame/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:34:40 PM
That depends on what they're educated in.
So give us some ideas of how to get starting salaries of 100k. As soon as enough people start going that route it will drop significantly.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 12:35:15 PM
How many fields can one get a starting job right out of school for 100k?
That depends on what they're educated in.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=62563.msg1749104#msg1749104
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:36:30 PM
So give us some ideas of how to get starting salaries of 100k. As soon as enough people start going that route it will drop significantly.
Salaries of 100k are not even enough to live a comfortable lifestyle in the frum world with a nice amount of kids.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: meme on June 28, 2017, 12:37:10 PM
Salaries of 100k are not even enough to live a comfortable lifestyle in the frum world with a nice amount of kids.
+1000
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 28, 2017, 12:38:00 PM
Salaries of 100k are not even enough to live a comfortable lifestyle in the frum world with a nice amount of kids.
especially given that lots of people are taking their first jobs while already in debt.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:39:39 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=62563.msg1749104#msg1749104
ummm did you look at the starting salary it says on that sign?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
ummm did you look at the starting salary it says on that sign?
I did :) I also looked at Job search websites. It looks like those salaries are before any training and experience. Once you have some experience it goes up very quickly. They say (http://yeshivaofnewark.org) they have training by this guy, Golan Ben Oni, who's written up here last week, https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/technology/ransomware-attack-nsa-cyberweapons.html

I'm assuming that training qualifies as some experience and with his connections one could land a job with a higher starting salary.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 12:48:40 PM
Salaries of 100k are not even enough to live a comfortable lifestyle in the frum world with a nice amount of kids.

You don't think Hashem can help or do you think this is exactly what Hashem wants?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 28, 2017, 12:50:01 PM
You don't think Hashem can help or do you think this is exactly what Hashem wants?
I'm just saying an education is not a good enough answer.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dawie on June 28, 2017, 12:52:23 PM

Why is cashing out a refi not income? Why is having medicaid paying a bill for you illegitimately not a benefit?
a refi is a loan that you have to payback eventually
Medicaid is just paying the insurance, had you paid for the insurance the bill would be covered by said insurance. In effect the FBI is "double billing"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:53:38 PM
I did :) I also looked at Job search websites. It looks like those salaries are before any training and experience. Once you have some experience it goes up very quickly. They say (http://yeshivaofnewark.org) they have training by this guy, Golan Ben Oni, who's written up here last week, https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/technology/ransomware-attack-nsa-cyberweapons.html

I'm assuming that training qualifies as some experience and with his connections one could land a job with a higher starting salary.
Why would they be advertising a starting salary as what one would get BEFORE their training?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 12:58:07 PM
Why would they be advertising a starting salary as what one would get BEFORE their training?
That's a good question. Probably because they want to be very honest and not set expectations high. This is something one could look-up right away. If someone has just the BS in Cybersecurity, this is the starting salary range.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 12:59:38 PM
That's a good question. Probably because they want to be very honest and not set expectations high. This is something one could look-up right away. If someone has just the BS in Cybersecurity, this is the starting salary range.
Now what happens after a few thousand more people in the NY area take such courses?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 01:01:39 PM
Now what happens after a few thousand more people in the NY area take such courses?
According to the studies I saw, there's a projected 1,000,000 UNFULFILLED jobs in Cybersecurity Nationwide by 2020, and 1.5 million worldwide. If you look at the heatmap, most jobs are in Silicon Valley area followed very closely by NYC metro area, and then Washington DC area.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on June 28, 2017, 01:01:39 PM
Medicaid is just paying the insurance, had you paid for the insurance the bill would be covered by said insurance. In effect the FBI is "double billing"

-1

Claims experience matters to future premiums. The insurance companies don't have to take losses, and everyone's premiums go up. The amount of the claims is the amount of the fraud. Alternatively, comparing to buying insurance is a logical falsehood- they went on Medicaid instead of being uninsured.

The vast majority of people who apply for benefits while earning more than allowable are doing so because they are desperate. They earn too much to be eligible for benefits, and at the same time do not earn enough to survive.

Survive? Sorry, that's absolutely false. What you mean is they don't earn enough to maintain the expensive lifestyle they've chosen.

I have complete sympathy for that, as do you, and I'd assume most frum people. But don't expect outsiders to be as understanding - no one outside the community would equate that lifestyle with basic survival.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 01:03:25 PM
Well that goes back to the need for an education...
Isn't middle America struggling the most ? That won't solve too much
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 01:08:10 PM
Claims experience matters to future premiums. The insurance companies don't have to take losses, and everyone's premiums go up. The amount of the claims is the amount of the fraud. Alternatively, comparing to buying insurance is a logical falsehood- they went on Medicaid instead of being uninsured.

While true that claims experience has an effect on future premiums, there seems to be an indication here that there were special needs children involved. IINM in chronic cases (such as some special needs) it is straight Medicaid, rather than Managed Care Medicaid, which means that rather than Medicaid paying premiums to an insurer for managed care, they actually pay the medical expenses directly as incurred.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 01:11:17 PM
Isn't middle America struggling the most ? That won't solve too much
My neighbors are doctors, dentists, lawyers, restaurant owners, business owners, and entrepreneurs. They seem to be doing just fine...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Crazy tools on June 28, 2017, 01:11:24 PM
http://nj1015.com/religion-not-the-issue-in-lakewood-welfare-raids-so-much-for-thou-shall-not-steal/

http://nj1015.com/zero-excuse-for-any-welfare-cheats-in-lakewood/

All because of DH comment.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 01:22:41 PM
My neighbors are doctors, dentists, lawyers, restaurant owners, business owners, and entrepreneurs. They seem to be doing just fine...
10+ kids ? 1 or 2 breadwinners ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 01:23:53 PM
10+ kids is pretty rare around here.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 01:38:08 PM
10+ kids is pretty rare around here.
Bingo
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jye on June 28, 2017, 01:41:27 PM
http://nj1015.com/religion-not-the-issue-in-lakewood-welfare-raids-so-much-for-thou-shall-not-steal/

http://nj1015.com/zero-excuse-for-any-welfare-cheats-in-lakewood/

All because of DH comment.

Better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jye on June 28, 2017, 01:43:29 PM
Bingo

2 girls in my daughters 8th grade class of 24 in Lakewood are from families of 14 kids and several more are 10+ siblings.....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 01:53:45 PM
http://nj1015.com/religion-not-the-issue-in-lakewood-welfare-raids-so-much-for-thou-shall-not-steal/

http://nj1015.com/zero-excuse-for-any-welfare-cheats-in-lakewood/

All because of DH comment.
He can add this to his long list of major accomplishments.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on June 28, 2017, 02:07:05 PM
The amount of people who's ONLY concern is chillul hashem is astounding. The prevalent views on Gezel akum, Taos akum, Lying, etc are shocking. People seem to think yashrus is only for suckers and 'harrys'.

(I actually heard someone say that even the chillul hashem isnt an issue if they had a 'heter')
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 02:21:16 PM
The amount of people who's ONLY concern is chillul hashem is astounding. The prevalent views on Gezel akum, Taos akum, Lying, etc are shocking. People seem to think yashrus is only for suckers and 'harrys'.

(I actually heard someone say that even the chillul hashem isnt an issue if they had a 'heter')

What about אל תדין את חברך עד שתגיע למקומו?

How much gezel akum and taos akum is there when taking advantage of price mistakes and then asking Amazon to give you free money? How much is there when milking millions of points and miles out of credit card companies? I am guilty as charged, and I therefore don't ask about other people's gezel akum and taos akum.


I'm not entirely certain that chillul hashem is really what bothers most people. Most people are embarrassed by association ("now everyone will think I do this kind of fraud too and it makes me look bad"), not by the fact that hashem's name has been desecrated.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sharkky on June 28, 2017, 02:24:56 PM
How much gezel akum and taos akum is there when taking advantage of price mistakes and then asking Amazon to give you free money? How much is there when milking millions of points and miles out of credit card companies? I am guilty as charged, and I therefore don't ask about other people's gezel akum and taos akum.
I think you are proving my point.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 02:26:53 PM
Akum?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 28, 2017, 02:27:39 PM
What about אל תדין את חברך עד שתגיע למקומו?

How much gezel akum and taos akum is there when taking advantage of price mistakes and then asking Amazon to give you free money? How much is there when milking millions of points and miles out of credit card companies? I am guilty as charged, and I therefore don't ask about other people's gezel akum and taos akum.


I'm not entirely certain that chillul hashem is really what bothers most people. Most people are embarrassed by association ("now everyone will think I do this kind of fraud too and it makes me look bad"), not by the fact that hashem's name has been desecrated.
Min difference between this and the examples you cited is that if someone buys an item on a price mistake, Amazon doesn't have to give the credit. It's their choice. Same with banks. They could 5x24 or whatever to stop people, or just red flag certain Ssn to automatically decline etc.

Here, lying took place to cheat the government into giving the money. Completely different.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
10+ kids is pretty rare around here.
Is it the water?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 02:29:31 PM
Is it the water?
Less section 8/food stamps/medicaid to subsidize it?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: AsherO on June 28, 2017, 02:32:32 PM
Less section 8/food stamps/medicaid to subsidize it?

#antisemitism
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 02:33:58 PM
Salaries of 100k are not even enough to live a comfortable lifestyle in the frum world with a nice amount of kids.

Living comfortably isn't a right. In fact, Pas Bimelach Tochal doesn't include granite counter tops...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 02:35:57 PM
Living comfortably isn't a right. In fact, Pas Bimelach Tochal doesn't include granite counter tops...

How about a Honda Odyssey?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: AsherO on June 28, 2017, 02:39:11 PM
Living comfortably isn't a right. In fact, Pas Bimelach Tochal doesn't include granite counter tops...

Is there anyone alive today who lives by the literal reading of that Mishnah?

How about a Honda Odyssey?

Funny that I thought the exact same thing.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 02:40:40 PM
Is there anyone alive today who lives by the literal reading of that Mishnah?

Yes, or at least take the figurative meaning to heart.  But they don't make it into the newspapers. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: zale on June 28, 2017, 02:43:17 PM
Yes, or at least take the figurative meaning to heart.  But they don't make it into the newspapers.

If you're on a gluten-free diet you're done for. Maybe kale with salt...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 02:44:13 PM
If you're on a gluten-free diet you're done for. Maybe kale with salt...
Let's see anyone affording that! Healthy food is a lot more expensive.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 02:57:27 PM
Living comfortably isn't a right. In fact, Pas Bimelach Tochal doesn't include granite counter tops...
+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: sky121 on June 28, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
Let's see anyone affording that! Healthy food is a lot more expensive.
It is. But somehow it tends to even out with the good number of people (including myself ) who have changed their diets.

All the cheap junk adds up too.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 03:11:09 PM
Starting CPAs in the big accounting firms start at about 60k in the smaller places can be 50k. Takes a pretty long time to make 100k and by then you need 200k once your paying tuition and health insurance... Not everyone can become a lawyer or Dr and even those that do are not guaranteed an income above that. Maybe a grad from a top law school can get that starting. One of the biggest expenses families face nowadays is healthcare and it keeps getting more expensive and covers less.
Based on my current income I can't even see the day my wife can cut her hours or stop working, growing up 2 income families was not necessary.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
Starting CPAs in the big accounting firms start at about 60k in the smaller places can be 50k. Takes a pretty long time to make 100k and by then you need 200k once your paying tuition and health insurance... Not everyone can become a lawyer or Dr and even those that do are not guaranteed an income above that. Maybe a grad from a top law school can get that starting. One of the biggest expenses families face nowadays is healthcare and it keeps getting more expensive and covers less.
Based on my current income I can't even see the day my wife can cut her hours or stop working, growing up 2 income families was not necessary.

What's your point? 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 03:16:15 PM
How many fields can one get a starting job right out of school for 100k?
If someone needs 100k to support themselves right out of school then something is drastically wrong somewhere.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 03:16:41 PM
What's your point?
my point was that someone on this thread just said that if we are educated we will make over 100k and all problems are solved, I was trying to bring out the facts that making 100K is not so easy and most jobs don't pay that even with education.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 03:18:46 PM
If someone needs 100k to support themselves right out of school then something is drastically wrong somewhere.
Right out of school assuming a year or 2 of kollel, 3 years of school you can have 2 kids already and between student loans and general living expenses, you would be surprised. I can send you my budget and let me know where I should cut down.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 03:19:05 PM
my point was that someone on this thread just said that if we are educated we will make over 100k and all problems are solved, I was trying to bring out the facts that making 100K is not so easy and most jobs don't pay that even with education.

I guess I don't understand what this has to do with the arrests.   They stole from the government.  Are people excusing it because they chose an expensive lifestyle? 

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 03:20:34 PM
I guess I don't understand what this has to do with the arrests.   They stole from the government.  Are people excusing it because they chose an expensive lifestyle?
No, but it was brought up in the thread. If you stole you stole but knowing the whole story helps you understand the mentality behind it, i doubt they started out with the mindset to steal.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 03:29:12 PM
No, but it was brought up in the thread. If you stole you stole but knowing the whole story helps you understand the mentality behind it, i doubt they started out with the mindset to steal.

Or maybe the whole story is just greed like normal humans? Jews are people too and people make poor decisions sometimes.  Why does there have to be a "mentality" behind it.  There are a whole lot of people that "struggle" with finances that don't steal. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: cmey on June 28, 2017, 03:33:39 PM
Less section 8/food stamps/medicaid to subsidize it?

Much more to do with brand of orthodoxy and psak regarding BC
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 03:35:32 PM
No, but it was brought up in the thread. If you stole you stole but knowing the whole story helps you understand the mentality behind it, i doubt they started out with the mindset to steal.
Like black kids that have only know poverty their whole life?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 03:36:43 PM
Right out of school assuming a year or 2 of kollel, 3 years of school you can have 2 kids already and between student loans and general living expenses, you would be surprised. I can send you my budget and let me know where I should cut down.
I would be more than happy to make changes to your budget but I know you won't like them.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chinagel on June 28, 2017, 03:37:45 PM
No, but it was brought up in the thread. If you stole you stole but knowing the whole story helps you understand the mentality behind it, i doubt they started out with the mindset to steal.
Or maybe the whole story is just greed like normal humans? Jews are people too and people make poor decisions sometimes.  Why does there have to be a "mentality" behind it.  There are a whole lot of people that "struggle" with finances that don't steal. 
what are you guys arguing about? do you just like letting everyone know the tint of your lenses?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
Like black kids that have only know poverty their whole life?
Don't think we should go down that route.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 03:54:50 PM
Don't think we should go down that route.
If we are going to bring up the mentality behind someone doing something you don't think that was a fair question.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 03:59:06 PM
If we are going to bring up the mentality behind someone doing something you don't think that was a fair question.
nope
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 28, 2017, 03:59:27 PM
Right out of school assuming a year or 2 of kollel, 3 years of school you can have 2 kids already and between student loans and general living expenses, you would be surprised. I can send you my budget and let me know where I should cut down.

Yes, please send it over and we can go Dave Ramsey all over it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:05:26 PM
Like black kids that have only know poverty their whole life?
Wasn't the whole purpose of these programs to get them out of that?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Redbull3 on June 28, 2017, 04:06:36 PM
Like black kids that have only know poverty their whole life?
Aren't you 2 days early for a comment like that
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
Wasn't the whole purpose of these programs to get them out of that?
Shhhh. Let's not tell the truth. It's actually called buying votes, but we make it sound benevolent. Just like the 25 MPH speed limit on Ocean Parkway and other major traffic arteries, it's designed to fund an agenda without "raising taxes", but they make it sound like it's about saving lives.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:14:37 PM
I once spoke with R Meir Stern about how to deal with the issue that even though I was making ends meet at the time, at the then current trajectory I wouldn't once all of my kids born at the time reached school age. He answered me that "Right now you will be needing to pay their tuitions is a few years" Realizing that is not tachkor achar asidos but it is right now that these are expense I would have down the road. To not calculate accordingly is foolish and not emuna ubitachon.

This really obvious but a big portion of how people get trapped.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 28, 2017, 04:16:40 PM
I once spoke with R Meir Stern about how to deal with the issue that even though I was making ends meet at the time, at the then current trajectory I wouldn't once all of my kids born at the time reached school age. He answered me that "Right now you will be needing to pay their tuitions in a few years" Realizing that is not tachkor achar asidos but it is right now that these are expense I would have down the road. To not calculate accordingly is foolish and not emuna ubitachon.

This really obvious but a big portion of how people get trapped.
Thank you. Would be very helpful if all Rosh Yeshivas were more like him.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 04:21:42 PM
I once spoke with R Meir Stern about how to deal with the issue that even though I was making ends meet at the time, at the then current trajectory I wouldn't once all of my kids born at the time reached school age. He answered me that "Right now you will be needing to pay their tuitions is a few years" Realizing that is not tachkor achar asidos but it is right now that these are expense I would have down the road. To not calculate accordingly is foolish and not emuna ubitachon.

This really obvious but a big portion of how people get trapped.
And the practical solution was?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:27:44 PM
And the practical solution was?
That was personal to me and my situation at the time, but I was in full time kollel for ten more years after that conversation.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: bubkiz on June 28, 2017, 04:28:31 PM
Thank you. Would be very helpful if all Rosh Yeshivas were more like him.
CMIIW, but I believe R' Meir Stern is opposed to the whole "programs for a living" concept. I've heard members of his kollel have restrictions on signing up for various programs. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 04:28:38 PM
And the practical solution was?

BC.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
BC.
That was not part of the conversation
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 04:31:31 PM
That was not part of the conversation

Then what was the point of your post?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:32:38 PM
Less section 8/food stamps/medicaid to subsidize it?
Think it will change with the vouchers?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 04:39:17 PM
Think it will change with the vouchers?
Section 8/food stamps/medicaid are blue programs. This is a pink state, so not likely to expand.
Vouchers are a red program. We'll see what happens to that if there is a blue 2018 like 2008.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 04:44:32 PM
Yes, please send it over and we can go Dave Ramsey all over it.
See attached, keep in mind this is after taxes are paid and health insurance takes over 800 a month out of my paycheck and a 4000 deductible so I am still paying every visit. PM me if you have any good ideas, for some expenses I took the prior year's actuals and took the average. My average tax rate the last few years was ~14%
Trust me I Dave Ramsey it every month (I make him look easy) but my wife vetos almost every cut  ;) When you are married there is more than one point of view...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aj26 on June 28, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Section 8/food stamps/medicaid are blue programs. This is a pink state, so not likely to expand.
Vouchers are a red program. We'll see what happens to that if there is a blue 2018 like 2008.
Vouchers will eventually become income based. Even trumps voucher plan is income based.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 04:49:49 PM
Vouchers will eventually become income based.
What does that have to do with the OH program?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dave321 on June 28, 2017, 04:51:40 PM
there should be a limit for anyone learning in kollel. 2 years i say. anyone that wants to learn past that needs to get permission from the rosh yeshivas. its unsustainable to learn for 5-7 years and then start working with 3-4 kids. 35k starting salary wont cut it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 04:59:11 PM
there should be a limit for anyone learning in kollel. 2 years i say. anyone that wants to learn past that needs to get permission from the rosh yeshivas. its unsustainable to learn for 5-7 years and then start working with 3-4 kids. 35k starting salary wont cut it.
Its been successfully done.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aj26 on June 28, 2017, 04:59:31 PM
What does that have to do with the OH program?
I think there is a good chance OH will go that way as well.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yr on June 28, 2017, 05:00:26 PM
there should be a limit for anyone learning in kollel. 2 years i say. anyone that wants to learn past that needs to get permission from the rosh yeshivas. its unsustainable to learn for 5-7 years and then start working with 3-4 kids. 35k starting salary wont cut it.

ROFL
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: syp5 on June 28, 2017, 05:01:26 PM
Vouchers will eventually become income based. Even trumps voucher plan is income based.

Public schools are free regardless of income. I have read the average cost in Ohio per public school student is a minimum 16k+, The private school vouchers are about 1/4 of that amount.

Once you get past the separation of Church and state issue, why should it be income based?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 28, 2017, 05:02:31 PM
Without condoning stealing from people or government in the slightest bit, I think for the most part the programs were intended to bring people up to a quality of life higher than the average Kollel lifestyle.

The primary deviation is private school, which we consider a bare necessity while the teachers unions would like to have it considered a luxury.

Also, with the reality that many parents pay more tuition than their fair share, it really is charity yet the US tax code does not allow deducting it.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: PlatinumGuy on June 28, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
average cost in Ohio per public school student is a minimum 16k+, The private school vouchers are about 1/4 of that amount.

+1

The teachers unions are robbing our entire society blind.

Public schools should be illegal. In many progressive countries, notably Sweden, most kids are educated at for profit schools.

Imagine how Americans would feel if most healthcare was administered in government hospitals - yet Education has a far more significant impact
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yoohoo on June 28, 2017, 05:05:35 PM
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 05:07:25 PM
The teachers unions are robbing our entire society blind.
+1. Far too powerful. Nobody dares start with them.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Mountain Man on June 28, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
It seems, as was mentioned upthread, that these people joined the programs within the income range and then their income grew. A few years ago I was unemployed and when obamacare came out I was looking to price out a healthcare option. Was definitely not interested in buying right away. But because of my income I was instantly put on medicaid. B"H I got a job and didn't need it and my medicaid rolled off but it auto renewed for my wife for a few years. Every auto renewal we called in and faxed in info demonstrating we didn't need it anymore. The third go around they finally cancelled it.

My point is that there are likely a ton of people across the country who are likely on entitlement programs that ought not be especially given how hard it is to walk away from "free money". They might not have been as proactive as I was to get off. I'm curious if they'll need to be looking over their shoulders after this week?

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: mgarfin on June 28, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
It seems, as was mentioned upthread, is that these people joined the programs within the income range and then their income grew. A few years ago I was unemployed and when obamacare came out I was looking to price out a healthcare option. Was definitely not interested in buying right away. But because of my income I was instantly put on medicaid. B"H I got a job and didn't need it and my medicaid rolled off but it auto renewed for my wife for a few years. Every auto renewal we called in and faxed in info demonstrating we didn't need it anymore. The third go around they finally cancelled it.

My point is that there are likely a ton of people across the country who are likely on entitlement programs that ought not be especially given how hard it is to walk away from "free money". They might not have been as proactive as I was to get off. I'm curious if they'll need to be looking over their shoulders after this week?

I am trying to get my wife off medecad for a long time, its not so easy. At a point, she was off but then found herself back on.
Self-employed ppl don't have their income paycheck to paycheck and it can become a big mess.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 05:14:58 PM
That would depend on the definition of "ought not be" & where they live.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Mountain Man on June 28, 2017, 05:19:30 PM
That would depend on the definition of "ought not be" & where they live.
True, I'm not speaking about NJ in specific. These programs don't have a lot of compassion for how broad a range "middle class" is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: TimT on June 28, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
True, I'm not speaking about NJ in specific. These programs don't have a lot of compassion for how broad a range "middle class" is.
There was a link posted earlier upthread of a town going after somebody for not reporting $1k or $5k.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 05:33:29 PM
@Baruch has been pretty silent through all this. Is this still your opinion?

To be honest, that actually makes sense. (90% is an over exaggeration, the regular guy on programs loses about 50-60% of his income, until the insurance cliff comes.)

But all truth be told, I never really cared if there was an economics argument to be made for the proposal.
I still don't want to see tens of thousand of my brethren, being thrown into poverty.
How about going to jail? I hope not 10s of thousands.
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
Which you never answered clearly in the other thread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 28, 2017, 06:19:26 PM
More arrested or is it a rumor?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 06:41:56 PM
Aren't you 2 days early for a comment like that
Meds, what day is it?  ;)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 06:43:47 PM
Wasn't the whole purpose of these programs to get them out of that?
Was talking about the programs but about the mentality of why one does things as someone brought up.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 06:45:04 PM
Was talking about the programs but about the mentality of why one does things as someone brought up.
Everyone's mentality of why they do something will be based on their own life story.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 06:48:02 PM
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
A friend with a large family discussed his situation with me. He felt that his dependence on government programs his hindering his mentality and trapping him in his situation.

We put down on a spreadsheet all his expenses (including those covered currently by programs and grants), and then all sources of income (including programs and grants).

We then started to examine how would various increases to his income affect his lifestyle.

Here were some of the things we learned:

1. He was extremely lucky to buy his house when he bought it, and subsequently get a mortgage modification, or else it would be close to impossible.

2. He is extremely lucky to legally qualify for something called Qualified Tuition Reduction.

3. In order to maintain the same (modest) lifestyle without all the non-taxable benefits (Medicaid, Pell Grants, QTR) he would have to earn about double what he currently earns (counting the QTR as current income, even though it is not considered such by the IRS, and is therefore not taxed).

The exercise was eye opening, and he realized why his neighbor is STRUGGLING on an income of $300k!

After running the numbers, he decided that he is comfortable earning more, to the extent that will drop him off FS rolls, but would still qualify him for a full Pell grant for his children (and for Medicaid, based on his income and family size).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 06:54:29 PM
Everyone's mentality of why they do something will be based on their own life story.
Agree and is meaningless when they do something illegal. That was the only point I was making.

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 06:56:01 PM
Agree and is meaningless when they do something illegal. That was the only point I was making.


These things have meaning in a sentencing phase and in plea negotiations.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 06:57:09 PM
The exercise was eye opening, and he realized why his neighbor is STRUGGLING on an income of $300k!
I need to do this exercise as that is insane.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 06:58:05 PM
I need to do this exercise as that is insane.
Do you have 10 children learning in parochial schools?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 06:58:52 PM
The exercise was eye opening, and he realized why his neighbor is STRUGGLING on an income of $300k!

After running the numbers, he decided that he is comfortable earning more, to the extent that will drop him off FS rolls, but would still qualify him for a full Pell grant for his children (and for Medicaid, based on his income and family size).
Were any lifestyle differences included?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 07:03:58 PM
Were any lifestyle differences included?
Between him and his neighbor or between current situation and after income increase (bez"h) and loss of FS?

I am guessing that his neighbor goes to the country for the summer, while my friend stays in a neighborhood that turns into a virtual ghost town. This summer he's using points to take his family to visit family in another country.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
Do you have 10 children learning in parochial schools?
Parents had 6 but only 4 for me. So 300k/10 equals 30k/kid. That is insane.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: gozalim on June 28, 2017, 07:59:52 PM
A friend with a large family discussed his situation with me. He felt that his dependence on government programs his hindering his mentality and trapping him in his situation.

We put down on a spreadsheet all his expenses (including those covered currently by programs and grants), and then all sources of income (including programs and grants).

We then started to examine how would various increases to his income affect his lifestyle.

Here were some of the things we learned:

1. He was extremely lucky to buy his house when he bought it, and subsequently get a mortgage modification, or else it would be close to impossible.

2. He is extremely lucky to legally qualify for something called Qualified Tuition Reduction.

3. In order to maintain the same (modest) lifestyle without all the non-taxable benefits (Medicaid, Pell Grants, QTR) he would have to earn about double what he currently earns (counting the QTR as current income, even though it is not considered such by the IRS, and is therefore not taxed).

The exercise was eye opening, and he realized why his neighbor is STRUGGLING on an income of $300k!

After running the numbers, he decided that he is comfortable earning more, to the extent that will drop him off FS rolls, but would still qualify him for a full Pell grant for his children (and for Medicaid, based on his income and family size).
someone needs to enable that calculation for more people. make a spreadsheet template or something
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: thaber on June 28, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
Parents had 6 but only 4 for me. So 300k/10 equals 30k/kid. That is insane.
it's not all tuition. Is lakewood tuition still 3k a kid or so? I know in my kids school (OOT) it comes out to about $14,500 per child for elementary school. more for high school.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: syp5 on June 28, 2017, 08:05:56 PM
Parents had 6 but only 4 for me. So 300k/10 equals 30k/kid. That is insane.
A large chunk of the 300k is probably going to taxes
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 08:06:54 PM
Parents had 6 but only 4 for me. So 300k/10 equals 30k/kid. That is insane.
$300K
-$130K Fed+NY+NYC tax
-$100K tuition
-$35K mortgage
-$20K food
-$15K charity
=$0




Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 28, 2017, 08:19:34 PM
it's not all tuition. Is lakewood tuition still 3k a kid or so? I know in my kids school (OOT) it comes out to about $14,500 per child for elementary school. more for high school.
A large chunk of the 300k is probably going to taxes
$300K
-$130K Fed+NY+NYC tax
-$100K tuition
-$35K mortgage
-$20K food
-$15K charity
=$0
I get all the numbers. There is also a mindset involved here.
Here is my mindset. I just retired. The reason I retired is I am set financially. You don't retire first and then figure out were the money is going to come from.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 28, 2017, 08:29:08 PM
$300K
-$130K Fed+NY+NYC tax
-$100K tuition
-$35K mortgage
-$20K food
-$15K charity
=$0
and that doesn't count car/cars, house insurance, car insurance, life insurance, health insurance...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 28, 2017, 08:29:37 PM
Nor camps, or any vacation, nor any clothing...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dan on June 28, 2017, 08:29:56 PM
and that doesn't count car/cars, house insurance, car insurance, life insurance, health insurance...
Nor camps, or any vacation, nor any clothing...
Shver tzu zein a yid.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 28, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
Long story short, doesn't pay to make between 100-275ish with a bunch of kids, might as well not
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 28, 2017, 08:32:19 PM
Income tax itself is realitively new :P
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 08:33:19 PM
it's not all tuition. Is lakewood tuition still 3k a kid or so? I know in my kids school (OOT) it comes out to about $14,500 per child for elementary school. more for high school.
my tuition in Lakewood is 5k plus dinner and building fund so around 6 when we're done. And I'm not even paying the official full tuition which is 6k plus those fees. Definitely cheaper than other communities but still costs money.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: theduke on June 28, 2017, 08:35:01 PM
Long story short, doesn't pay to make between 100-275ish with a bunch of kids, might as well not
yup, I even went down to lrrc a while back to discuss my options/budget they basically told me that your screwed since I'm middle class.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 28, 2017, 09:31:40 PM
I get all the numbers. There is also a mindset involved here.
Here is my mindset. I just retired. The reason I retired is I am set financially. You don't retire first and then figure out were the money is going to come from.
Congratulations!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aj26 on June 28, 2017, 10:09:19 PM
$300K
-$130K Fed+NY+NYC tax
-$100K tuition
-$35K mortgage
-$20K food
-$15K charity
=$0
$130K in taxes on $300K? You need a new accountant. Once you take out deductions, exemptions, etc, probably closer to $70K. Not that $60K left over is a lot, but just saying...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ExGingi on June 28, 2017, 10:22:01 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/yes-your-parents-status-does-influence-your-earning-power
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 28, 2017, 10:22:05 PM
$130K in taxes on $300K? You need a new accountant. Once you take out deductions, exemptions, etc, probably closer to $70K. Not that $60K left over is a lot, but just saying...

No AMT?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Proisrael on June 29, 2017, 02:52:41 AM
I am sorry but people buy these huge houses with huge mortgages and then complain about the high cost of living. I dont care that Lakewood is cheaper then Brooklyn, live in a basement with 10 kids if need be.heck live in 2 basements it is still much cheaper!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 29, 2017, 06:17:44 AM
I am sorry but people buy these huge houses with huge mortgages and then complain about the high cost of living. I dont care that Lakewood is cheaper then Brooklyn, live in a basement with 10 kids if need be.heck live in 2 basements it is still much cheaper!
Really? 2k+ a month for the rest of your life  is cheaper than a mortgage? Maybe ppl should live in their cars.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: moko on June 29, 2017, 06:27:54 AM
Really? 2k+ a month for the rest of your life  is cheaper than a mortgage? Maybe ppl should live in their cars.
you can rent a basement in lkwd these days for $700. That's $1400 for a 6 bedroom (of course you would need to find them nextdoor.) Just sayin. But I will say that many people opt to spend between 500k -700k and live in Lakewood (even in a duplex) vs. spend 350k and moving to Jackson. Or insisting on driving a leased oddy vs buying a used minivan. Etc.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 06:48:04 AM
I am sorry but people buy these huge houses with huge mortgages and then complain about the high cost of living. I dont care that Lakewood is cheaper then Brooklyn, live in a basement with 10 kids if need be.heck live in 2 basements it is still much cheaper!
Few of those arrested were in large fancy houses. A fifteen years old Westgate house is the way you are describing it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 07:14:46 AM
Few of those arrested were in large fancy houses. A fifteen years old Westgate house is the way you are describing it.
He's saying that families can live perfectly fine in rented townhouses at $1600/1800 a month.

There is no chiyuv to get a mortgage asap..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 07:55:16 AM
He's saying that families can live perfectly fine in rented townhouses at $1600/1800 a month.

There is no chiyuv to get a mortgage asap..
someone who bought a west gate house fifteen years ago can have a mortgage ay about that level
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 07:58:18 AM
someone who bought a west gate house fifteen years ago can have a mortgage ay about that level
So what. I'm not talking about anyone who bought a Westgate house 15 years ago.

It's a general comment about the sad state of affairs in this town. Half the people I know are killing themselves for a mortgage. They could be living a much higher quality of life in a rental.. jmho
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
So what. I'm not talking about anyone who bought a Westgate house 15 years ago.

It's a general comment about the sad state of affairs in this town. Half the people I know are killing themselves for a mortgage. They could be living a much higher quality of life in a rental.. jmho
That may be your point but is not his. He wrote about living with ten kids in a basement.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 29, 2017, 08:02:27 AM
So what. I'm not talking about anyone who bought a Westgate house 15 years ago.

It's a general comment about the sad state of affairs in this town. Half the people I know are killing themselves for a mortgage. They could be living a much higher quality of life in a rental.. jmho
And there are people who are renting and are struggling. It's not just those few hundred that are making or breaking it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 08:06:20 AM
And there are people who are renting and are struggling. It's not just those few hundred that are making or breaking it.
It's crucial to pay attention to "those few hundred".
It's also not a chiyuv to spend 10k on royal clothing for all the kids every YT.
I could go on and on but what's the point ..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on June 29, 2017, 09:02:06 AM
It's crucial to pay attention to "those few hundred".
It's also not a chiyuv to spend 10k on royal clothing for all the kids every YT.
I could go on and on but what's the point ..

agreed.
What about all the teachers who teach full time and do not get health insurance? They cannot pay for health insurance, so their only choice is to get Medicaid. This is a huge issue for the Rabbonim to fix.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 09:13:16 AM
agreed.
What about all the teachers who teach full time and do not get health insurance? They cannot pay for health insurance, so their only choice is to get Medicaid. This is a huge issue for the Rabbonim to fix.
It is definitely a responsibility of the tzibur to ensure that rabbeim get a living wage.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 09:22:55 AM
agreed.
What about all the teachers who teach full time and do not get health insurance? They cannot pay for health insurance, so their only choice is to get Medicaid. This is a huge issue for the Rabbonim to fix.

Pay the teachers and raise tuition to a normal price.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on June 29, 2017, 09:27:02 AM
It is definitely a responsibility of the tzibur to ensure that rabbeim get a living wage.

+100
Pay the teachers and raise tuition to a normal price.

+100

agreed;
....and then you'll have the tzibur with even higher bills....   ;)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: cholent on June 29, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
Pay the teachers and raise tuition to a normal price.
And all the people who are barely making it but aren't teachers are going to afford higher tuition how?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: moko on June 29, 2017, 09:29:57 AM
Pay the teachers and raise tuition to a normal price.
I guess 12k per child per year is too low? That's what tuition in many schools is and the rabbeim still don't make a living wage
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 09:31:16 AM
And all the people who are barely making it but aren't teachers are going to afford higher tuition how?

Hashem will certainly help.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: cholent on June 29, 2017, 09:31:28 AM
I guess 12k per child per year is too low? That's what tuition in many schools is and the rabbeim still don't make a living wage
Not in Lakewood
Title: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 09:33:01 AM
I guess 12k per child per year is too low? That's what tuition in many schools is and the rabbeim still don't make a living wage

That can't be answered without knowing what the average parent actually pays and how the school chooses to spend its money.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: smart man on June 29, 2017, 09:34:45 AM
That can't be answered without knowing what the average parent actually pays and how the school chooses to spend its money.
And raising tuition would help that how?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 09:35:01 AM
I guess 12k per child per year is too low? That's what tuition in many schools is and the rabbeim still don't make a living wage
+1 I say there should be a policy, anyone getting a tuition break has to give their tzedakah money to the school and not to the flashy tzedakahs orgs.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: AsherO on June 29, 2017, 09:35:44 AM
That can't be answered without knowing what the average parent actually pays and how the school chooses to spend its money.

Part of the problem is that schools (read: administrators) choose how to spend the money with very little transparency or oversight...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 09:37:15 AM
+1 I say there should be a policy, anyone getting a tuition break has to give their tzedakah money to the school and not to the flashy tzedakahs orgs.

How about: if you get a break you still owe the rest to be paid later (at death if necessary).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 09:37:28 AM
What is the average tuition grades K-8 and 9-12?
Title: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 09:37:34 AM
Part of the problem is that schools (read: administrators) choose how to spend the money with very little transparency or oversight...

Bingo.  The reason why they don't file a 990.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 09:40:43 AM
What is the average tuition grades K-8 and 9-12?
Varies by location and type of school. Outside of lakewood and Brooklyn, its about 12.5k-25k for elementary school. The more rightwing schools are on the lower end of that spectrum. For highschool you can add another 5k or so.
I can send you a link to a google doc with tuitions for over 150 schools.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 09:41:37 AM
How about: if you get a break you still owe the rest to be paid later (at death if necessary).
Dedinitly!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 09:43:53 AM
What is the average tuition grades K-8 and 9-12?

It's all laid out here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jJF9icyyd5jMqY-pm06QbJqqAKXe0b9X-1-DOzbo4yk/edit#gid=806713164
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 29, 2017, 09:57:35 AM
+1 I say there should be a policy, anyone getting a tuition break has to give their tzedakah money to the school and not to the flashy tzedakahs orgs.
not a bad idea at all
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Yehuda25 on June 29, 2017, 09:58:46 AM
Part of the problem is that schools (read: administrators) choose how to spend the money with very little transparency or oversight...
school that I work for that definitely is not true. But perhaps other places
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:06:08 AM
Varies by location and type of school. Outside of lakewood and Brooklyn, its about 12.5k-25k for elementary school. The more rightwing schools are on the lower end of that spectrum. For highschool you can add another 5k or so.
I can send you a link to a google doc with tuitions for over 150 schools.
Would it be fair to say it costs more than public schools?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 10:06:59 AM
Would it be fair to say it costs more than public schools?


That's a tough one.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:08:00 AM
Would it be fair to say it costs more than public schools?
Per parent? Of course.
To run? Not at all.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:10:01 AM
Would it be fair to say it costs more than public schools?

Each district is different.  Some public school systems spend 15k or more per student.  The cost is just spread over a wider paying base. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:10:27 AM

That's a tough one.
For my kids K-8 private was cheaper. That would be expect as teachers make less and the parish subsidies the school. For 9-12 it was about the same but a way better education.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 10:11:07 AM
Would it be fair to say it costs more than public schools?
To run, It shouldn't. the schools that are in the 12k range dont provide nearly as much services, facilities nor extracurriculars as P.S.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
Per parent? Of course.
To run? Not at all.
Then where is the money going?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:13:05 AM
To run, It shouldn't. the schools that are in the 12k range dont provide nearly as much services, facilities nor extracurriculars as P.S.
I agree so:
Then where is the money going?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:15:33 AM
Then were is the money going?
It's not. If a Lakewood school charges 15K per person, they can assume an average of less than half that.
Yes, if the government for some strange reason decided to give the schools the exact amount they spent per public school child to private schools also then there would be a large excess.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 10:16:26 AM
I agree so:
Biggest gap is probably tuition breaks, I dont think anyone is walking away with loaded pockets.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:17:18 AM
Then where is the money going?

Most don't play nicely with each other so don't share services or buying power which balloons cost.  Also, they are generally top heavy with expensive administrators and a lot of "charity" staff. 

Also, since so many people are on financial need scholarship (deserved or not), the full paying tuition is inflated to cover the cost of the people who don't pay.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:19:06 AM
It's not. If a Lakewood school charges 15K per person, they can assume an average of less than half that.
Yes, if the government for some strange reason decided to give the schools the exact amount they spent per public school child to private schools also then there would get a large excess.
Guess I wasn't understanding. Your saying public is more expensive per child? Forget about where the money is coming from.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
...the full paying tuition is inflated to cover the cost of the people who don't pay.
BIG mistake!!!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:20:39 AM
Guess I wasn't understanding. Your saying public is more expensive per child? Forget about where the money is coming from.
Yes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 10:20:48 AM
Bingo.  The reason why they don't file a 990.
They don't?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 10:21:52 AM
They don't?

I only know one Yeshiva that files. The rest (boys and girls schools) claim the church exemption.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 10:22:35 AM
Most don't play nicely with each other so don't share services or buying power which balloons cost.  Also, they are generally top heavy with expensive administrators and a lot of "charity" staff. 

Also, since so many people are on financial need scholarship (deserved or not), the full paying tuition is inflated to cover the cost of the people who don't pay.
I would say that YMMV as far as admin and charity staff.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:23:29 AM
BIG mistake!!!

Ya think?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:27:52 AM
For 2014 NY and NJ ranked 1 and 4 on spending per child. NY came in at just over 20k.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: yelped on June 29, 2017, 10:28:53 AM
Then where is the money going?
I work in a school. A. We're small, so the costs are not spread out. B. Most people get a huge break. C. Most people don't even pay that and just keep on coming up with excuses.

I could tell you that the salaries paid out are not large salaries, and I'm talking about everyone including the Adminastrator.
Title: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Menachem613 on June 29, 2017, 10:29:08 AM
For 2014 NY and NJ ranked 1 and 4 on spending per child. NY came in at just over 20k.

NYC Teachers are well paid and good benefits.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
Ya think?
Per child tuition should be a real figure. The funds for those that can't pay full price need to come from other sources.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:30:08 AM
For 2014 NY and NJ ranked 1 and 4 on spending per child. NY came in at just over 20k.

The district I live in pays $8,847 per pupil.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
The district I live in pays $8,847 per pupil.
...and your tuition is?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
...and your tuition is?

20k/child.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:35:17 AM
20k/child.
Just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:37:16 AM
Just doesn't make sense.

You can't compare my kids' school to the public schools.  It's a jewish prep school.  And is cheaper than the other private prep schools in the area. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:37:21 AM
...and your tuition is?
Prices and flexibility fluctuate depending on area and (not surprisingly) "right wing" vs "left wing" schools.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:38:23 AM
Just doesn't make sense.
You can't expect to understand with just the questions you are asking.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:38:56 AM
You can't expect to understand with just the questions you are asking.

It's supply and demand.  Not hard to understand.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Shua on June 29, 2017, 10:40:39 AM
...the full paying tuition is inflated to cover the cost of the people who don't pay.
BIG mistake!!!
That's why I get so mad at people who can pay full tuition but think it's a metziah to get a break (cash paying/off the books jobs etc). They even boast about it! They are literally stealing from me (as I pay full tuition).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
...the full paying tuition is inflated to cover the cost of the people who don't pay. That's why I get so mad at people who can pay full tuition but think it's a metziah to get a break (cash paying/off the books jobs etc). They even boast about it! They are literally stealing from me (as I pay full tuition).

Exactly, you should be mad.  But you don't do anything about it so the suckers keep paying...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 10:44:10 AM
BIG mistake!!!
Some schools claim that their full tuition is only to cover the cost of your own child. I call b.s.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:46:18 AM
It's supply and demand.  Not hard to understand.
So the reason that an ultra Orthodox school will sometimes take kids below the actual cost for them is because of supply and demand?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on June 29, 2017, 10:50:40 AM
Some schools claim that their full tuition is only to cover the cost of your own child. I call b.s.

depends what that full tuition amount is. If it's $10K, then it's the actual cost of educating the child plus the mortgage and costs for the building/utilities. The families who pay $1k-$2K per child have their scholarships fill in the rest from school fundraisers and some school grants. The schools who don't have enough $10K paying students don't pay their teachers well in most cases, and then in turn there is no health coverage for the teachers, either. Hence the huge problem.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:51:33 AM
So the reason that an ultra Orthodox school will sometimes take kids below the actual cost for them is because of supply and demand?

Modern Orthodox schools do that too, btw.  But the reason the price is so high is supply and demand.  The full price buyers tolerate the inflated pricing.  If they were to walk (the demand decrease), the price would have to go down. 


Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 10:52:26 AM
You can't expect to understand with just the questions you are asking.
So let me ask this. For K-8 which teachers are paid more? How about extra activities (sports, clubs and other things) that are offered? How about special ed programs that are offered? I get the sense that the answer to all these question is "public schools". Right or wrong?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:54:48 AM


Modern Orthodox schools do that too, btw.  But the reason the price is so high is supply and demand.  The full price buyers tolerate the inflated pricing.  If they were to walk (the demand decrease), the price would have to go down.

Not nearly as common. I have a relative that was kicked out of a school in FL when she couldn't pay the amount asked. They treat it as a for profit and not a not for profit. Not sure if that's a problem or not.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: CS1 on June 29, 2017, 10:55:05 AM
So let me ask this. For K-8 which teachers are paid more? How about extra activities (sports, clubs and other things) that are offered? How about special ed programs that are offered? I get the sense that the answer to all these question is "public schools". Right or wrong?

right. The public school teachers are paid much more. Plus, they get health care and retirement benefits, too. A teacher on my flight will earn 80% of her salary for the rest of her life after she retires in 2 years. 35 years of teaching in the San Antonio school district -- the Gifted Class.... Our classrooms are 20+ kids of all ranges of abilities -- and WE need to make the curriculum.....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:56:56 AM
So let me ask this. For K-8 which teachers are paid more? How about extra activities (sports, clubs and other things) that are offered? How about special ed programs that are offered? I get the sense that the answer to all these question is "public schools". Right or wrong?

Not sure exact rates but the teachers salaries are not as good as PS. Regarding those other programs, I've had them all, not sure the question though.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 29, 2017, 10:57:20 AM

Not nearly as common. I have a relative that was kicked out of a school in FL when she couldn't pay the amount asked. They treat it as a for profit and not a not for profit. Not sure if that's a problem or not.

I've literally never heard of that happening so either there's more to the story or that's an outlier.   Although it would be nice if the school my kids attend would act more like a for profit.  But that's a separate discussion...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 10:58:46 AM
I've literally never heard of that happening so either there's more to the story or that's an outlier.   Although it would be nice if the school my kids attend would act more like a for profit.  But that's a separate discussion...
Probably an outlier. There is no more to the story, although it may not be a "classic Jewish school".
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 11:02:51 AM
Not sure exact rates but the teachers salaries are not as good as PS. Regarding those other programs, I've had them all, not sure the question though.
In our area for K-8 public school teachers make way more and the schools offer way more outside activities. If my school charged me more than what it cost a public school per child I would go ballistic.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Dave321 on June 29, 2017, 11:02:55 AM
The schools finances should be posted online and the tuition should be based on last years expenses. each year the price would fluctuate.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 11:06:00 AM
The schools finances should be posted online and the tuition should be based on last years expenses. each year the price would fluctuate.
I don't agree. But it that's the deciding factor in paying full most schools will break it down for you.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 29, 2017, 11:07:31 AM
I don't agree. But it that's the deciding factor in paying full most schools will break it down for you.
No way! At least in LW 90% of schools are private enterprises. They would never open their books.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 11:09:08 AM


If my school charged me more than what it cost a public school per child I would go ballistic.
Do you go ballistic that some/most of your taxes go to benefit other?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 11:09:37 AM
No way! At least in LW 90% of schools are private enterprises. They would never open their books.
Try it. I did.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: hachover on June 29, 2017, 11:20:15 AM
It is definitely a responsibility of the tzibur to ensure that rabbeim get a living wage.

Rabbeim don't get a living wage, but by the same token, their job doesn't utilize their full working potential. Working men can put in far more hours and far more days into earning a living than that. And if that was how schools were organized, the money used to pay other people could augment rabbeim's salaries and get them employee benefits.

Ever heard of a school downsizing?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 29, 2017, 11:24:48 AM
Do you go ballistic that some/most of your taxes go to benefit other?
I am not happy about it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 11:25:32 AM
Rabbeim don't get a living wage, but by the same token, their job doesn't utilize their full working potential. Working men can put in far more hours and far more days into earning a living than that. And if that was how schools were organized, the money used to pay other people could augment rabbeim's salaries and get them employee benefits.

Ever heard of a school downsizing?
If they take an afternoon job they still won't have a living wage.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 29, 2017, 11:29:40 AM
Try it. I did.
You got a private school to open their books so you should pay full tuition? I have a hard believing that would work for a majority of the local schools.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Emkay on June 29, 2017, 11:34:07 AM
You got a private school to open their books so you should pay full tuition? I have a hard believing that would work for a majority of the local schools.
Yes, a smaller school though. Not one if the larger ones. And I don't mean for full scrutinization, I mean a breakdown of where money is going.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chaimmayer on June 29, 2017, 01:23:49 PM
I once heard in a shiur from Rav Herschel Schachter that when he sent his kids to Breuer'S he was told that the tuition actualy costs $1000 more than the cost of educating his child so therefore that amount could come from מעשר כספים. 
I was surprised because I know the school my kids go to where most people do not pay full tuition so they have to do a ton of fundraising the actual tuition is less than the cost of educating one child.

I wonder what's typical?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: chevron on June 29, 2017, 01:40:53 PM
In florida, you get 6k step up if you dont make enough, still, the schools dont lower the premium tuition for those paying full cost even with their getting a 6k minimum per child
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2017, 02:13:38 PM
+1 I say there should be a policy, anyone getting a tuition break has to give their tzedakah money to the school and not to the flashy tzedakahs orgs.
The issue with this is that you can't get a tax deduction on tuition so if you're getting a tuition break and then giving money to the school you wouldn't be able to get a deduction for it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 02:19:54 PM
The issue with this is that you can't get a tax deduction on tuition so if you're getting a tuition break and then giving money to the school you wouldn't be able to get a deduction for it.
So someone else should pay your tuition so you can get a tax receipt?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2017, 02:26:03 PM
So someone else should pay your tuition so you can get a tax receipt?
My point was that they then won't be able to pay the amount of tuition that they currently can.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 29, 2017, 02:30:41 PM
My point was that they then won't be able to pay the amount of tuition that they currently can.
A big chunk of people that are getting tuition breaks are not itemizing so wont be an issue for them.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: avromie7 on June 29, 2017, 02:35:23 PM
A big chunk of people that are getting tuition breaks are not itemizing so wont be an issue for them.
In that case they're not giving much money to tzedaka so it won't help much.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: Sport on June 29, 2017, 02:38:15 PM
In that case they're not giving much money to tzedaka so it won't help much.
They can easily be giving 2 to $3,000 a year Without itemizing. That would make a big difference
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 03:33:50 PM
And Brooklyn
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: jackofall on June 29, 2017, 03:53:36 PM
They can easily be giving 2 to $3,000 a year Without itemizing. That would make a big difference
+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yelped on June 29, 2017, 04:38:56 PM
And Brooklyn
Source?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 05:09:03 PM
Source?
Manhatten da press release
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Eliyohu on June 29, 2017, 05:11:18 PM
Sorry to go back on topic... Any credible source that more arrests are coming tomorrow morning?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: lubaby on June 29, 2017, 05:12:04 PM
Manhatten da press release
This? (http://manhattanda.org/press-release/da-vance-six-individuals-and-one-company-indicted-theft-270000-through-shell-corporati) Totally different situation. Only similarity is Jews doing things they shouldn't be.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 05:23:13 PM
Manhatten da press release
It is not for the same thing. More like a Solomon Dwek style bounced check scheme.

Quote
used their personal credit cards to make thousands of dollars’ worth of purchases from 92K BLVD., a shell company, which maintained an American Express merchant account linked to a Bank of America account, both of which were owned by ISRAEL ________, 62. During the same period, numerous checks in amounts ranging from $5,000 to $15,000 were written from 92K BLVD.’s account to other outside companies, through which thousands of dollars in checks were then distributed back to the individual defendants in amounts ranging from $4,000 to $9,000.
[/size]As part of the defendants’ scheme, the supposed buyers requested refunds shortly after making the purchases, prompting American Express to credit their accounts and attempt to retrieve the matching funds from 92K BLVD.’s merchant account. However, American Express was unable to so, and when Bank of America was contacted about the missing funds, American Express received information that there were insufficient funds in the account, causing American Express to suffer more than $270,000 in losses.[/color]
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on June 29, 2017, 06:15:39 PM
According to Wikipedia it seems that if investigators exercised  the same level of scrutiny to almost any  welfare population the result would be similar:

"Welfare fraud is the act of illegally useing state welfare systems by knowingly withholding or giving information to obtain more funds than would otherwise be allocated.

Obtaining reliable evidence of welfare fraud is notoriously difficult.[1][2] Official figures of the prevalence of welfare fraud based on government investigation tend to be low – a few percent of the total amount of welfare spending. Interviews with welfare recipients where the interviewer has succeeded to gain a high level of trust, on the other hand, have shown that many, if not most, fail to report incomes.[3][4] Likewise, a survey of the general population has found that more than 80% are prepared to cheat on welfare if the risk of audit is only 1/6.[1] In most cases, welfare fraud involves modest sums and is committed by people who struggle with poverty, but once started it often continues after reaching financial stability.[5][6]"

Of course there is no excusing fraudulent behavior and we should be better as a whole than the general population. However, it does give some perspective...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: thaber on June 29, 2017, 06:18:59 PM
+1 I say there should be a policy, anyone getting a tuition break has to give their tzedakah money to the school and not to the flashy tzedakahs orgs.
Doesn't work as maaser if obligated, but then again if you're getting a tuition break you should not have a chiyuv to give maaser
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: nsastamps on June 29, 2017, 07:47:11 PM
Sorry to go back on topic... Any credible source that more arrests are coming tomorrow morning?

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2017/06/still_more_arrests_coming_in_lakewood_fraud_probe.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Moshe123 on June 29, 2017, 10:14:46 PM
According to Wikipedia it seems that if investigators exercised  the same level of scrutiny to almost any  welfare population the result would be similar:

"Welfare fraud is the act of illegally useing state welfare systems by knowingly withholding or giving information to obtain more funds than would otherwise be allocated.

Obtaining reliable evidence of welfare fraud is notoriously difficult.[1][2] Official figures of the prevalence of welfare fraud based on government investigation tend to be low – a few percent of the total amount of welfare spending. Interviews with welfare recipients where the interviewer has succeeded to gain a high level of trust, on the other hand, have shown that many, if not most, fail to report incomes.[3][4] Likewise, a survey of the general population has found that more than 80% are prepared to cheat on welfare if the risk of audit is only 1/6.[1] In most cases, welfare fraud involves modest sums and is committed by people who struggle with poverty, but once started it often continues after reaching financial stability.[5][6]"

Of course there is no excusing fraudulent behavior and we should be better as a whole than the general population. However, it does give some perspective...

You wouldn't find anyone condoning such type of outright theft.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on June 29, 2017, 10:23:50 PM
You wouldn't find anyone condoning such type of outright theft.
What do you think of this ?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1308030/op-ed-national-story-12-arrested-lakewood-ignored-sixty-eight-arrested-pennsylvania.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 29, 2017, 10:26:05 PM
Wow, a community on edge.

Wild rumors are swirling about another 50 arrests scheduled, and people are paniking..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: coralsnake on June 29, 2017, 10:53:20 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/men-busted-swiping-270g-amex-fake-nyc-company-article-1.3289265
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 11:47:24 PM
Wow, a community on edge.

Wild rumors are swirling about another 50 arrests scheduled, and people are paniking..
the prosecutor said 10-12 more is about right.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on June 29, 2017, 11:53:13 PM
the prosecutor said 10-12 more is about right.
Wasn't someone quoted as saying that "this is just the beginning" ?
Who warned the community in 2015 ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on June 29, 2017, 11:55:02 PM
A thought just crossed my mind. Could this be a result of Obamacare? IINM part of that law was tighter sharing of income information and was expected to result in people getting off medicaid (and possibly other welfare programs).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 29, 2017, 11:58:14 PM
Wasn't someone quoted as saying that "this is just the beginning" ?
Who warned the community in 2015 ?
The statement from the prosecutor is going to come back to haunt him. Any good defense attorney will seize upon that to show that it was not his clients alleged crime that made them arrest him but that they needed to show something for the millions of dollars spent illegally profiling a religious community. Imagine a prosecutor saying he targeted the black community.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 12:00:27 AM
A thought just crossed my mind. Could this be a result of Obamacare? IINM part of that law was tighter sharing of income information and was expected to result in people getting off medicaid (and possibly other welfare programs).
Of course it was. It also caused the car crash down the block from me.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yitzgar on June 30, 2017, 12:16:47 AM
Of course it was. It also caused the car crash down the block from me.
No, that was the Russian hackers
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: lubaby on June 30, 2017, 12:20:23 AM
What do you think of this ?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1308030/op-ed-national-story-12-arrested-lakewood-ignored-sixty-eight-arrested-pennsylvania.html
The average number in that list is $3k-$4k, nothing close to the amounts that the Lakewood story is about.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on June 30, 2017, 12:32:37 AM
The average number in that list is $3k-$4k, nothing close to the amounts that the Lakewood story is about.
You don't think it would've been big news if it was smaller amounts ? It's always a juicy story when it's אחינו being arrested.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: nsastamps on June 30, 2017, 12:48:51 AM
I just pray and hope it's done but if ch"v it's not and they decide to come on shabbos...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Redbull3 on June 30, 2017, 12:51:27 AM
Is this the orthodox financial crime master thread?

Cuz https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/new-york/brooklyn/men-busted-swiping-270g-amex-fake-nyc-company-article-1.3289265
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: thaber on June 30, 2017, 12:52:03 AM
Is this the orthodox financial crime master thread?

Cuz https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/new-york/brooklyn/men-busted-swiping-270g-amex-fake-nyc-company-article-1.3289265
Repost
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Redbull3 on June 30, 2017, 12:54:26 AM
Repost
Ugh I missed it my bad :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 08:41:09 AM
The statement from the prosecutor is going to come back to haunt him. Any good defense attorney will seize upon that to show that it was not his clients alleged crime that made them arrest him but that they needed to show something for the millions of dollars spent illegally profiling a religious community. Imagine a prosecutor saying he targeted the black community.
The prosecutor said he targeted the Jewish community?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 08:42:16 AM
Is this the orthodox financial crime master thread?
To short of a thread for that.  :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 30, 2017, 08:46:50 AM
To short of a thread for that.  :)
Yup, it's Friday. Ok.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 30, 2017, 08:50:56 AM
..." is the former rabbi of Oros Yisroel, a school for special-needs students that closed in 2015 because of federal and state tax liens of more than $295,000, according to public records."

How does a school have federal tax liens? Not a nfp?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 08:51:06 AM
Yup, it's Friday. Ok.
Glad someone gets it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on June 30, 2017, 09:06:44 AM
..." is the former rabbi of Oros Yisroel, a school for special-needs students that closed in 2015 because of federal and state tax liens of more than $295,000, according to public records."

How does a school have federal tax liens? Not a nfp?
Payroll taxes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 09:38:24 AM
The prosecutor said he targeted the Jewish community?
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/more_arrests_coming_in_lakewood_di_ionno.html
Quote
"We are sending a message to this community that the party is over," the law enforcement source said.
"The party," the source refers to are allegations that Orthodox Jews bilk the public assistance systems.

http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/26/lakewood-welfare-fraud/424127001/
Quote
"Financial assistance programs are designed to alleviate family hardships for those truly in need," said Ocean County Prosecutor Joseph Coronato in a statement. "My office gave clear guidance and notice to the Lakewood community in 2015 of what is considered financial abuse of these programs.
"Those who choose to ignore those warnings by seeking to illegally profit on the backs of taxpayers will pay the punitive price of their actions."
It is of course not explicit, but the only community they "warned" was the orthodox one. That is also the only one they investigated. The didn't warn or investigate Lakewood's Hispanic, black, or senior community.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 09:44:20 AM
It is of course not explicit, but the only community they "warned" was the orthodox one. That is also the only one they investigated. The didn't warn or investigate Lakewood's Hispanic, black, or senior community.
Police target high crime black communities all the time and there is no outrage. Just the opposite is true. The residents want these communities cleaned up.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: moko on June 30, 2017, 09:47:20 AM
Police target high crime black communities all the time and there is no outrage. Just the opposite is true. The residents want these communities cleaned up.
really?? Is that why there is almost no law enforcement cooperation from these communities? If they want the community cleaned up, stop sending 7yr old Tyron to be a runner or lookout
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 09:51:29 AM
Police target high crime black communities all the time and there is no outrage. Just the opposite is true. The residents want these communities cleaned up.
They will target Albany Park but will they target only the Blacks in Albany Park and not the Hispanics?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Aaaron on June 30, 2017, 10:02:32 AM
That is also the only one they investigated. The didn't warn or investigate Lakewood's Hispanic, black, or senior community.

Source? 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Baruch on June 30, 2017, 10:03:49 AM
Police target high crime black communities all the time and there is no outrage. Just the opposite is true. The residents want these communities cleaned up.
Two wrongs don't make a right. This can be used in a criminal defense. And it has been used successfully before.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 10:13:11 AM
They will target Albany Park but will they target only the Blacks in Albany Park and not the Hispanics?
You make it sound like that if they found a non-Jew scamming the government they would look the other way.

Reminds me of the famous quote: The famous criminal Willie Sutton was once asked why he robbed banks, and his response was simple, eloquent, and humorous: Because that’s where the money is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 10:16:08 AM
really?? Is that why there is almost no law enforcement cooperation from these communities? If they want the community cleaned up, stop sending 7yr old Tyron to be a runner or lookout
Depends on the community. As for your other comment I will chalk it up to pure ignorance and not racism.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
You make it sound like that if they found a non-Jew scamming the government they would look the other way.

Reminds me of the famous quote: The famous criminal Willie Sutton was once asked why he robbed banks, and his response was simple, eloquent, and humorous: Because that’s where the money is.

And if while targeting blacks in Albany Park they would find a hispanic  they also would not look the other way. Do they have snything showing that this fraud is more rampnt in the Orthodox community? I can show you numbers which show the opposite. The issue is that they used an anti-semitic stereotype to decide to spend millions on investigating a specific ethnic profile. That is illegal profiling. Of course there are criminals in the Orthodox community. Probably at about the same rae as every other middle class community, maybe a little more skewed to white collar crime due to various aspects of background and upbringing. The types of crimes are probably also the ones which would be found in middle class communities. That does not mean that they profiled and targeted over other communities.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 10:26:00 AM
And if while targeting blacks in Albany Park they would find a hispanic  they also would not look the other way. Do they have snything showing that this fraud is more rampnt in the Orthodox community? I can show you numbers which show the opposite. The issue is that they used an anti-semitic stereotype to decide to spend millions on investigating a specific ethnic profile. That is illegal profiling. Of course there are criminals in the Orthodox community. Probably at about the same rae as every other middle class community, maybe a little more skewed to white collar crime due to various aspects of background and upbringing. The types of crimes are probably also the ones which would be found in middle class communities. That does not mean that they profiled and targeted over other communities.
As far as numbers I have no idea. When I read here that the whole community is worried that sure doesn't sound like just a few involved.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 10:30:10 AM
As far as numbers I have no idea. When I read here that the whole community is worried that sure doesn't sound like just a few involved.
Some of these cases do seem to have involved nitpicking by the prosecutors from what I am hearing. I don't think it is coincidental that soem of the indictments were released and some not.

Also, my point is not whether it made sense for them to do it, but that it was a stupid move on the prosecutor's part to be so explicit about it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on June 30, 2017, 11:06:21 AM
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/charged-with-welfare-fraud-in-pennsylvania-including-lancaster-county-residents/article_d2ea7a6e-4f8f-11e7-bd5a-07190d0b7b36.html
This does happen elsewhere but for some reason it doesn't make national news. The lakewood story was in the WSJ, saw it thanks to dansdeals signup...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 30, 2017, 11:13:48 AM
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/charged-with-welfare-fraud-in-pennsylvania-including-lancaster-county-residents/article_d2ea7a6e-4f8f-11e7-bd5a-07190d0b7b36.html
This does happen elsewhere but for some reason it doesn't make national news. The lakewood story was in the WSJ, saw it thanks to dansdeals signup...
Why would a few thousand a person make national news? You have to admit that something is more newsworthy when each crime is demarcated in $100,000+ increments. Also, odds are, there's not a ring of crime in that case, whixh there most likely is here. Also, part of the WSJ is local tri-state area news.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hvaces42 on June 30, 2017, 11:14:37 AM
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/charged-with-welfare-fraud-in-pennsylvania-including-lancaster-county-residents/article_d2ea7a6e-4f8f-11e7-bd5a-07190d0b7b36.html
This does happen elsewhere but for some reason it doesn't make national news. The lakewood story was in the WSJ, saw it thanks to dansdeals signup...
Did you consider the scale of the frauds before trying to make your foolish allegation? Next its anti-Semitism,  right?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on June 30, 2017, 11:16:33 AM
Did you consider the scale of the frauds before trying to make your foolish allegation? Next its anti-Semitism,  right?
64 individuals seem like a healthy amount.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Toasted on June 30, 2017, 11:18:56 AM
Two wrongs don't make a right. This can be used in a criminal defense. And it has been used successfully before.
Source?

Some of these cases do seem to have involved nitpicking by the prosecutors from what I am hearing. I don't think it is coincidental that soem of the indictments were released and some not.
What do you suspect are in those indictments? Don't they always have to publicize them?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM


Some of these cases do seem to have involved nitpicking by the prosecutors from what I am hearing. I don't think it is coincidental that soem of the indictments were released and some not.

Also, my point is not whether it made sense for them to do it, but that it was a stupid move on the prosecutor's part to be so explicit about it.

Complaints, not indictments . Very different
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 11:28:15 AM

Complaints, not indictments . Very different
Either way, some were released and some not.
Source?
What do you suspect are in those indictments? Don't they always have to publicize them?
I think that the numbers will show that the scale is not what they are making it out to be.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yelped on June 30, 2017, 11:38:00 AM
Either way, some were released and some not.I think that the numbers will show that the scale is not what they are making it out to be.
That was my feeling, too. It seems to me that the second round of arrests weren't people making 1m+ a year, but rather barely over the limits.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: zh cohen on June 30, 2017, 11:53:26 AM
That was my feeling, too. It seems to me that the second round of arrests weren't people making 1m+ a year, but rather barely over the limits.

Did they stagger the arrests over different days as part of a media strategy?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on June 30, 2017, 12:04:58 PM
Did they stagger the arrests over different days as part of a media strategy?
100% how else does the media know about the pending arrests to be waiting. The walk of shame is all about showboating.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: shaulyaakov on June 30, 2017, 12:08:02 PM
100% how else does the media know about the pending arrests to be waiting. The walk of shame is all about showboating.
Not about showboating, but about demonstrating consequences to masses.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Toasted on June 30, 2017, 12:17:36 PM
That was my feeling, too. It seems to me that the second round of arrests weren't people making 1m+ a year, but rather barely over the limits.
Even round 1 weren't all 1m guys. There's a reason they did the biggest show with one of the guys and put his indictment first. People will read the first one and assume the rest are the same.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on June 30, 2017, 12:20:44 PM
Not about showboating, but about demonstrating consequences to masses.
Call it what you want, but they definitely do it on purpose/for a purpose.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 12:25:44 PM
Not about showboating, but about demonstrating supposed results to politicians.
FTFY

Millions of dollars were spent targeting the Lakewood frum community. They need to show something for it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on June 30, 2017, 12:31:33 PM
FTFY

Millions of dollars were spent targeting the Lakewood frum community. They need to show something for it.

How do you figure "millions"?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 12:33:14 PM
How do you figure "millions"?
The many manhours of a large team over a large number of years.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on June 30, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
Not about showboating, but about demonstrating consequences to masses.
How does that go side by side with "innocent till proven guilty" ?
People have had their careers & lives destroyed through allegations & public parading only to have charges dropped. Remember Steven Hatfill ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 12:38:46 PM
How does that go side by side with "innocent till proven guilty" ?
People have had their careers & lives destroyed through allegations & public parading only to have charges dropped. Remember Steven Hatfill ?
It doesn't.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: elit on June 30, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/charged-with-welfare-fraud-in-pennsylvania-including-lancaster-county-residents/article_d2ea7a6e-4f8f-11e7-bd5a-07190d0b7b36.html
This does happen elsewhere but for some reason it doesn't make national news. The lakewood story was in the WSJ, saw it thanks to dansdeals signup...

You don't think it would've been big news if it was smaller amounts ? It's always a juicy story when it's אחינו being arrested.
we are held to a higher standard. and we should be and we shouldn't have any issue with that. it's a core part of yahdus. we are supposed to embrace it. not complain,  abuse or ruin it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 04:00:47 PM
we are held to a higher standard. and we should be and we shouldn't have any issue with that. it's a core part of yahdus. we are supposed to embrace it. not complain,  abuse or ruin it.
-10000000

We should hold OURSELVES to a higher standard. For the authorities or media to hold us to a higher standard is anti-semitism.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 04:16:22 PM
Millions of dollars were spent targeting the Lakewood frum community. They need to show something for it.
You really need it give it a break.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 04:38:11 PM
You really need it give it a break.
What should I tell. When law enforcement says explicitly that they are targeting the Orthodox community it is something I take offense at.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 05:05:31 PM
What should I tell. When law enforcement says explicitly that they are targeting the Orthodox community it is something I take offense at.
Nothing wrong with taking offense but bringing in anti-Semitism?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 05:12:59 PM
Nothing wrong with taking offense but bringing in anti-Semitism?
Isn't targeting Jews called antisemitism
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aro123 on June 30, 2017, 05:16:54 PM
If a cop would sit on the side of the highway with every car driving by at 80 mph. and he only pulled over jews and then arrested them for reckless driving, would you call it anti semitism or cracking down on speeding?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on June 30, 2017, 05:27:24 PM
This is the issue with having a zip code like 08701 that have a majority of Orthodox Jews. You're going to raise a lot of red flags, whether it's AA, eBay, or the FBI.
You have a median household income of $40K with a median house cost over $300K. You have a very high percentage on the dole, but not many that seem destitute.
Is it a surprise that it's being targeted?

Yes, 44122 (Beachwood) is 90% Jewish and probably a majority of that Orthodox, but income is over double 08701s, houses are cheaper, and very few live on the dole, so I'd be shocked to hear about the feds targeting Jews here, which is what they'd be doing if this was related to anti-semitism.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: chinagel on June 30, 2017, 05:30:32 PM

Yes, 44122 (Beachwood) is 90% Jewish and probably a majority of that Orthodox, but income is over double 08701s, houses are cheaper, and very few live on the dole, so I'd be shocked to hear about the feds targeting Jews here, which is what they'd be doing if this was related to anti-semitism.
if almost no one is getting aid then there isnt anything for them to target, no matter how much anti semitism there is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on June 30, 2017, 05:32:57 PM
if almost no one is getting aid then there isnt anything for them to target, no matter how much anti semitism there is.
I'm sure it's not nobody, but clearly they saw anomalies in large numbers in 08701. That doesn't make it anti-semitism, it just means a lot of people on the dole live in the same zip code and they are going to raise eyebrows based on home values vs income levels, etc.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Mikeoracle on June 30, 2017, 05:37:33 PM
LinkedIn response from DH regarding being misquoted and taken out of context #fakenews
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6286256715197353984
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Moshe123 on June 30, 2017, 05:46:10 PM
Didn't it all start from catching the money laundering at a store?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on June 30, 2017, 05:48:07 PM
The Asbury Park Press is stooping to a new low in Jew baiting, cherry picking statistics to show welfare stats in Lakewood as being worse than Newark.
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/30/lakewood-welfare-half-children-get-assistance-families-panic-after-arrests/438839001

 How many statistics had to be manipulated to come up with the married in Lakewood vs. married in Newark to sensationalize the numbers? 9 or 10 children households are not uncommon in Lakewood. Obviously if you had reported the number of total households in Lakewood receiving aid vs households in Lakewood that are not receiving programs the numbers would tell a very different story. Additionally, minority households in Newark where both parents are married tend to be far better off financially than single parent minority households. To cherry pick numbers to create a story is irresponsible reporting at best, and perhaps Jew- baiting considering some of the anti Semitic and Jew bashing comments that seem to be indicative of the lowest elements of society coming out of the woodwork to attack an entire religion in response to some of these inflammatory articles as many commenters (some since deleted) have done.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on June 30, 2017, 06:05:10 PM
The Asbury Park Press is stooping to a new low in Jew baiting, cherry picking statistics to show welfare stats in Lakewood as being worse than Newark.
http://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2017/06/30/lakewood-welfare-half-children-get-assistance-families-panic-after-arrests/438839001

 How many statistics had to be manipulated to come up with the married in Lakewood vs. married in Newark to sensationalize the numbers? 9 or 10 children households are not uncommon in Lakewood. Obviously if you had reported the number of total households in Lakewood receiving aid vs households in Lakewood that are not receiving programs the numbers would tell a very different story. Additionally, minority households in Newark where both parents are married tend to be far better off financially than single parent minority households. To cherry pick numbers to create a story is irresponsible reporting at best, and perhaps Jew- baiting considering some of the anti Semitic and Jew bashing comments that seem to be indicative of the lowest elements of society coming out of the woodwork to attack an entire religion in response to some of these inflammatory articles as many commenters (some since deleted) have done.

And this IS anti-Semitism. Do not think that they differentiate between kollel and working and big businessmen and Rebbeim; or Beechwood or Lakewood or Brooklyn or Monsey. To them all Jews are suspect. Never would a newspaper create so many stories out of one event if it wasn't about Jews.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 06:08:04 PM
Isn't targeting Jews called antisemitism
Yes but that is not what happened. If they found out during their investigation Catholics were doing the same thing you would see them arrested also.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 06:09:31 PM
Quote from: ChaimMoskowitz link=topic=61462.msg1763428#msg1763428  date=1498860484
Yes but that is not what happened. If they found out during their investigation Catholics were doing the same thing you would see them arrested also.
Except that it is what happened. They were specifically targeting the Jewish community. Had they incidentally found a Catholic along the way they would have arrested them too. So what.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on June 30, 2017, 06:14:50 PM
The app is beyond anti Semitic, it's still front page news on their website and in the papers. Everyone else moved on to the next story. Seems like the connection was ppl that had special needs children, the second round of ppl that were arrested were actually low income ppl living as such, they probably under reported 5k of income but were caught in this web somehow...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 30, 2017, 06:19:04 PM
Except that it is what happened. They were specifically targeting the Jewish community. Had they incidentally found a Catholic along the way they would have arrested them too. So what.
that's how you view it and there was nothing that I or anyone else could say that will change that.
Today CPD is targeting a neighborhood with the highest gun violence. Using your logic they are targeting blacks.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on June 30, 2017, 06:23:45 PM
that's how you view it and there was nothing that I or anyone else could say that will change that.
Today CPD is targeting a neighborhood with the highest gun violence. Using your logic they are targeting blacks.
especially since they said it themselves

I think you have seen enough of me here to know that I am not someone who sees anti Semites behind every stone. When they themselves have said they profiled based on a bigoted stereotype I will take them at their word.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Aaaron on June 30, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
especially since they said it themselves

I think you have seen enough of me here to know that I am not someone who sees anti Semites behind every stone. When they themselves have said they profiled based on a bigoted stereotype I will take them at their word.

Where did they say that?  I still haven't seen it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Redbull3 on June 30, 2017, 08:04:24 PM
Where did they say that?  I still haven't seen it.
+1
Because they used the word "community"?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 01, 2017, 10:26:28 PM
Where did they say that?  I still haven't seen it.

+1
Because they used the word "community"?
There is only one community here which they made a whole warning seminar for. Those are the facts and the source for that is my two eyes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 01, 2017, 10:38:42 PM
He is back.  :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 01, 2017, 10:42:30 PM
He is back.  :)
Who?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Aaaron on July 01, 2017, 10:53:29 PM
There is only one community here which they made a whole warning seminar for. Those are the facts and the source for that is my two eyes.

How does that mean they didn't investigate any other communities?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: zh cohen on July 01, 2017, 10:55:52 PM
Isn't targeting Jews becase they are Jews called antisemitism
FTFY
Not commenting on this case cause I don't know details
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 01, 2017, 11:01:47 PM
How does that mean they didn't investigate any other communities?
read what their source said.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hvaces42 on July 02, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
In Lakewood today. When do the pogroms start?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:10:37 PM
where in lakewood did you see that poster? was it a jewish person who put it up?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 02, 2017, 12:14:46 PM
In Lakewood today. When do the pogroms start?
It's from an extreme right wing group.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 12:15:15 PM
where in lakewood did you see that poster? was it a jewish person who put it up?
Really!?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:18:56 PM
Really!?

yes!!!!
do you know the answer???
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 02, 2017, 12:19:31 PM
It's from an extreme right wing group.
That is a nice way to put it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 12:20:20 PM
yes!!!!
do you know the answer???
Oh, can you explain what on earth leads you to suggest that a Jew would distribute such a poster?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:21:11 PM
Oh, can you explain what on earth leads you to suggest that a Jew would distribute such a poster?

usually the biggest anti semites are jews
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 12:22:49 PM
usually the biggest anti semites are jews
Like the Nazis were Jews?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 02, 2017, 12:23:21 PM
usually the biggest anti semites are jews
I learn something new every day.  ::)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:26:34 PM
Like the Nazis were Jews?

there are jewish anti semites and non jewish anti semites.
nazi were extreme anti semites.
jews are non extreme anti semites.
for example word of mouth or posters, but not taking action....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 12:28:37 PM
there are jewish anti semites and non jewish anti semites.
nazi were extreme anti semites.
jews are non extreme anti semites.
for example word of mouth or posters, but not taking action....
With all due respect, this is baloney
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 02, 2017, 12:30:00 PM
That is a nice way to put it.
This is a nice poster compared to some other ones they've put out.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 02, 2017, 12:31:45 PM
This is a nice poster compared to some other ones they've put out.
I understand that but this is a hate group.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:33:16 PM
With all due respect, this is baloney

baloney??
i asked if it was jews who put up the poster.
you made it sound like a jewish person couldnt be anti semitic  ???
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: iwlw2 on July 02, 2017, 12:33:58 PM
Without getting into the substantive story and back and forth, it really is a nervous and scary time to be in Lakewood, on so many levels!!  :-\
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 02, 2017, 12:34:52 PM
Without getting into the substantive story and back and forth, it really is a nervous and scary time to be in Lakewood, on so many levels!!  :-\
Can you explain why?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:42:15 PM
Can you explain why?

Is it bc of anti semetiism bc of what the few people did ?
Or are more people scared of being busted ?

U think those couples r going to walk away? Or u think they will get some jail time ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 02, 2017, 12:43:37 PM
there are jewish anti semites and non jewish anti semites.
nazi were extreme anti semites.
jews are non extreme anti semites.
for example word of mouth or posters, but not taking action....
You are crazy. The image you are painting of yourself here is that of a crazy person going around saying nonsense and then yelling that they are the cheif rabbi, or moshich, or a gilgul of moshe rabbeinu, eliyahu hanavi or something else of the sort. THis is a bona-fide white supremacist group. This is the beginning of their manifesto.

Quote
Points of the Vanguard

American Fascism – America was built in the image of the Roman Republic. Its capitol, imagery, and goals were set with good intentions on that foundation. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, however, and our nation is surrounded in brimstone. The time of the Republic has passed in America, as the system grows weak. Arrogance and delusions of infinite power have brought the state to the point of buckling. The damage done to this nation and its people will not be fixed if every issue requires a vote, if every point must be debated, discussed, or deliberated upon. Democracy has failed in this once great nation, now the time for a new Caesar to revive the American spirit has dawned.

A Nation For Our People – An America based on the immutable truths of Blood and Soil. A multicultural nation is no nation at all, but a collection of smaller ethnic nations ruled over by an overbearing tyrannical state. Our America is to be a nation exclusively for the White American peoples who out of the barren hills, empty plains, and vast mountains forged the most powerful nation to ever have existed. Vanguard America stands indomitably opposed to the tyranny of globalism and capitalism, a system under which nations are stripped of their heritage and their people are turned into nothing more than units of cheap, expendable labor. Vanguard America, and our nationalist allies across the Western world, see a world of nations ruled by their own people, for their own people.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 02, 2017, 12:45:37 PM
You are crazy. The image you are painting of yourself here is that of a crazy person going around saying nonsense and then yelling that they are the cheif rabbi, or moshich, or a gilgul of moshe rabbeinu, eliyahu hanavi or something else of the sort. THis is a bona-fide white supremacist group. This is the beginning of their manifesto.

That's all I was asking.
Was where it was from

Why the name calling and insults ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: iwlw2 on July 02, 2017, 12:46:56 PM
I would think it's pretty obvious. There is a fair amount of resentment and barely-veiled anti-Jewish feeling amongst our neighbors at the best of times, that is obviously exacerbated with the current headlines. You don't see posters like the one posted above too much, but I'd imagine that the news is bringing people out of the closet all over. In addition, everyone knows someone who rightly or wrongly might be in the crosshairs, from what I understand besides for the more egregious offenders, there were also people caught up in this sweep who are extremely unlikely to have been willfully defrauding anyone, and even if their innocence will be proven in court you can be sure that it will not be trumpeted by any headlines then. Plus, again without getting into the substance of the allegations, there is definitely a feeling that there is a certain amount of animus which is motivating them. Leaving aside the question of guilt or innocence, the fact of the matter is that there is almost no one in America that can say that if the full investigative weight of law-enforcement was brought to bear on them, that would not find anything, even if what they found could be explained or excused. The relevant tax code laws/ income rules/ eligibility requirements etc. are just too confusing and complicated.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 02, 2017, 12:55:22 PM
That's all I was asking.
Was where it was from

Why the name calling and insults ?
You asked a crazy question and then went on to defend it with even crazier statements.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
You asked a crazy question and then went on to defend it with even crazier statements.
+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 01:24:48 PM
Can the APP be legally sued for incitement?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 02, 2017, 01:31:16 PM
Can the APP be legally sued for incitement?
You wanna take away their oxygen ? Hatred to the Lakewood oilam is what they live for.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 01:33:16 PM
Are they responsible for the comments and the current wave of anti-Semitic actions directed to Lakewood Jews? Can it hold up in court that they incited against a specific group?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hvaces42 on July 02, 2017, 01:33:47 PM
Can the APP be legally sued for incitement?
Since when is incitement a tort? If there were a riot or damages from the incitement then maybe you have a case. But publishing the facts as they stand today whats actionable?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 01:34:40 PM
That was my question. If it creates hate speech, is that legally pursuable?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: zh cohen on July 02, 2017, 01:46:41 PM
That was my question. If it creates hate speech, is that legally pursuable?

Here speech is free speech.
Quote
The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hvaces42 on July 02, 2017, 01:55:11 PM
Here speech is free speech.
Correct. Is there any imminent threat of violence? I think not, yet.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
Is defacing a shul lawless action?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 02, 2017, 01:57:56 PM
Is there any imminent threat of violence?
Doesn't need to reach that
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: syp5 on July 02, 2017, 02:00:28 PM
Copied and pasted;

http://www.ojpac.org/latest/a-letter-to-the-advertisers-of-asbury-park-press-and-gannett-investors

Good day investors and board members at Gannett (the parent company of Asbury Park Press), advertisers at APP, and community leaders:


On Friday afternoon June 30, 2017, the Asbury Park Press had a lead story online titled "Lakewood welfare: Half of Lakewood's children on government assistance." In it, APP staffer Payton Guion gave the numerical amount of children in Lakewood from married couples households who are on government assistance (18,200) and compared it to Newark the largest city in New Jersey who is second with the total number of children from married households on assistance (7,800).


Apparently, the goal was to show how bad Lakewood is compared to the next municipality in terms of children on assistance. However, 81% children in Lakewood live in married couples households whereas less than 40% children in Newark live in such households, so of course Lakewood will likely have more children in married couples households on assistance compared to Newark.


Using a category (married couples households) which has a large pool in Lakewood and small pool in Newark is brazen skewing of data. The accurate comparison to Newark would be the numerical and percent figures of how many children live in both places and how many of them benefit from government programs.


After the Orthodox Jewish Public Affairs Council took to Twitter (via @OJPACNJ) and called out APP for the above dishonesty, APP added data of all children who live in Newark and who also data of how many children in Newark who have assistance. While this is a good start, 1) the flawed married couples household comparison stayed in the report. As of this writing, the report still reads, "There are 10,000 more children in households with married couples in Lakewood receiving food, income or state aid than the next closest town." 2) While APP shows the percentage of all children on assistance in Lakewood, APP shows only the numerical figure for Newark. My guess is APP knows that showing the percentage of children on assistance in Newark (53.7%) dilutes the rational for dramatizing Lakewood where 49.6% children are on assistance.


Likely in an effort to hype the government assistance use in Lakewood, the report counts children who are on "some form of government aid" including apparently medical benefits despite the fact that children in a household of five that earns $99,000 a year are eligible for health care. Meaning, the high-level of eligibility for medical assistance in no way reflects the poverty level of Lakewood.


Thirdly, Newark in raw numbers (37,965 vs. 21,612) and as a percent (53.7% vs. 49.6%) has more children on government assistance than in Lakewood. However, the Asbury Park Press does not suggest - as it does for Lakewood - that the assistance use in Newark is based on mass scale fraud.


Fourth, the misleading data are in the first few paragraphs of the APP propaganda item; it is the premise of the whole item, not a side note. Furthermore, there is no editor's note admitting that new data was added.


Finally, APP reporting focuses on Monmouth and Ocean counties in New Jersey but the paper seems much more interested in Lakewood than the drug abuse crisis which claimed the lives of 350 people in those two counties alone last year. A search on APP for the word "opioid" generates only 85 results; "overdose" has 200 results, "Heroin" shows 1,158 results, and "Lakewood" has 3,571 results.


In whichever way one looks at the propaganda item, it is clear that data-skewing (married couples households), journalistic malpractice (not showing percentages of Newark; adding medical care in the assistance use; treating Lakewood different than Newark), editorial dishonesty (omitting an editor's note), and bias (an outsized focus on Lakewood) was deployed against a low-crime and mostly productive community of Orthodox Jews. This type of propaganda fuels anti-Orthodox rhetoric online and likely also fuels hate incidents in the streets. Investors in APP's parent company Gannett and APP advertisers have a responsibility to demand that APP editors stop its bigoted fake news campaign against Orthodox Jews.


Yossi Gesterner,

Co-founder, Orthodox Jewish Public Affairs Council (www.OJPAC.org)


P.S. Lohud/The Journal News in New York is also owned by Gannett. They too resort to data-skewing and journalistic malpractice to malign Orthodox Jews. OJPAC latest video addresses one example. https://youtu.be/8n1UyYS6Hn8, and this addresses another example http://www.ojpac.org/latest/lying-about-dead-infants-to-besmirch-the-orthodox-jewish-community.


Thank you for reading.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hvaces42 on July 02, 2017, 02:09:30 PM
Could be summed up way more succinctly  #FakeNews
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 02:10:08 PM
Spellcheck: "rationale" not rational.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 02:11:08 PM
Could be summed up way more succinctly  #FakeNews
But with a potentially dangerous effect.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 02, 2017, 02:15:34 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/horrific-photos-holocaust-memorial-at-lakewood-shul-defaced-with-anti-semitic-message.html

Its started
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 02:16:16 PM
Is defacing a shul lawless action?
That's why I asked...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on July 02, 2017, 02:53:50 PM
Copied and pasted;

Good day investors and board members at Gannett (the parent company of Asbury Park Press), advertisers at APP, and community leaders:


On Friday afternoon June 30, 2017, the Asbury Park Press had a lead story online titled "Lakewood welfare: Half of Lakewood's children on government assistance." In it, APP staffer Payton Guion gave the numerical amount of children in Lakewood from married couples households who are on government assistance (18,200) and compared it to Newark the largest city in New Jersey who is second with the total number of children from married households on assistance (7,800).


Apparently, the goal was to show how bad Lakewood is compared to the next municipality in terms of children on assistance. However, 81% children in Lakewood live in married couples households whereas less than 40% children in Newark live in such households, so of course Lakewood will likely have more children in married couples households on assistance compared to Newark.


Using a category (married couples households) which has a large pool in Lakewood and small pool in Newark is brazen skewing of data. The accurate comparison to Newark would be the numerical and percent figures of how many children live in both places and how many of them benefit from government programs.


After the Orthodox Jewish Public Affairs Council took to Twitter (via @OJPACNJ) and called out APP for the above dishonesty, APP added data of all children who live in Newark and who also data of how many children in Newark who have assistance. While this is a good start, 1) the flawed married couples household comparison stayed in the report. As of this writing, the report still reads, "There are 10,000 more children in households with married couples in Lakewood receiving food, income or state aid than the next closest town." 2) While APP shows the percentage of all children on assistance in Lakewood, APP shows only the numerical figure for Newark. My guess is APP knows that showing the percentage of children on assistance in Newark (53.7%) dilutes the rational for dramatizing Lakewood where 49.6% children are on assistance.


Likely in an effort to hype the government assistance use in Lakewood, the report counts children who are on "some form of government aid" including apparently medical benefits despite the fact that children in a household of five that earns $99,000 a year are eligible for health care. Meaning, the high-level of eligibility for medical assistance in no way reflects the poverty level of Lakewood.


Thirdly, Newark in raw numbers (37,965 vs. 21,612) and as a percent (53.7% vs. 49.6%) has more children on government assistance than in Lakewood. However, the Asbury Park Press does not suggest - as it does for Lakewood - that the assistance use in Newark is based on mass scale fraud.


Fourth, the misleading data are in the first few paragraphs of the APP propaganda item; it is the premise of the whole item, not a side note. Furthermore, there is no editor's note admitting that new data was added.


Finally, APP reporting focuses on Monmouth and Ocean counties in New Jersey but the paper seems much more interested in Lakewood than the drug abuse crisis which claimed the lives of 350 people in those two counties alone last year. A search on APP for the word "opioid" generates only 85 results; "overdose" has 200 results, "Heroin" shows 1,158 results, and "Lakewood" has 3,571 results.


In whichever way one looks at the propaganda item, it is clear that data-skewing (married couples households), journalistic malpractice (not showing percentages of Newark; adding medical care in the assistance use; treating Lakewood different than Newark), editorial dishonesty (omitting an editor's note), and bias (an outsized focus on Lakewood) was deployed against a low-crime and mostly productive community of Orthodox Jews. This type of propaganda fuels anti-Orthodox rhetoric online and likely also fuels hate incidents in the streets. Investors in APP's parent company Gannett and APP advertisers have a responsibility to demand that APP editors stop its bigoted fake news campaign against Orthodox Jews.


Yossi Gesterner,

Co-founder, Orthodox Jewish Public Affairs Council (www.OJPAC.org)


P.S. Lohud/The Journal News in New York is also owned by Gannett. They too resort to data-skewing and journalistic malpractice to malign Orthodox Jews. OJPAC latest video addresses one example. https://youtu.be/8n1UyYS6Hn8, and this addresses another example http://www.ojpac.org/latest/lying-about-dead-infants-to-besmirch-the-orthodox-jewish-community.


Thank you for reading.

Contact info would be helpful so all of us who are outraged can reach out to Gannett and its advertisers.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Tuna Baygel on July 02, 2017, 03:20:57 PM
No mention by the APP who is heavily involved in reporting Lakewood news about the hate crime!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: joeberg on July 02, 2017, 03:21:45 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/horrific-photos-holocaust-memorial-at-lakewood-shul-defaced-with-anti-semitic-message.html

Its started
Same people as the flyer upthread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Emkay on July 02, 2017, 03:30:56 PM
Oh, can you explain what on earth leads you to suggest that a Jew would distribute such a poster?
Lack of female pictures.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 02, 2017, 03:35:15 PM
Lack of female pictures.
Ah, but the females are not the hated "Rabbiner"!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Baruch on July 02, 2017, 03:43:07 PM
Lack of female pictures.
If you noticed, they also only showed the 3 men that have bushy beards.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: nsastamps on July 02, 2017, 07:46:46 PM
No mention by the APP who is heavily involved in reporting Lakewood news about the hate crime!
They finally reported it after it became national news
http://www.app.com/story/news/crime/2017/07/02/hate-group-spreads-anti-semitic-messages-through-lakewood/446994001/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: rs242 on July 02, 2017, 08:13:41 PM
They finally reported it after it became national news
http://www.app.com/story/news/crime/2017/07/02/hate-group-spreads-anti-semitic-messages-through-lakewood/446994001/
From this article "The Asbury Park Press has chosen not to run photographs of the flyers or banner due to the inflammatory nature of their content"
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Aaaron on July 02, 2017, 08:35:27 PM
They finally reported it after it became national news
http://www.app.com/story/news/crime/2017/07/02/hate-group-spreads-anti-semitic-messages-through-lakewood/446994001/

Please.  They covered it promptly enough.  And I haven't seen it on any real national news.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: chevron on July 02, 2017, 09:13:13 PM
I wonder if there are any Anthropologists here, income used to be a very accepted nature. Some were rich by luck, mazal, or inherited. Then of course you had those that hustled, worked hard etc.. many were content to work hard, earn, save, build. Yes dishonesty and crooks always existed.

Ready capital and modern entertainment gave way to entitlement. The american dream is about the capacity to earn what you are willing and able to work for, not what you want.

Any ways, the details of this case aside, have you ever been confident in telling your friends / kids etc "im sorry but we cannot afford that now" and not be embarrassed ?

We need to be more honest with ourselves and friends / family members, the friend that is quick to drop their cc to pay the bill? maybe its not a millage grab, maybe they want you to see that everything is fine, yet they are loaded with 25k in cc debt paying 16%

I could go on forever, but we need to be honest about what kind of message we want to give off, are we ok with what we have and yet work hard to provide a good life, or do we need to live beyond our means because thats what everyone does.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: farmbochur on July 02, 2017, 09:34:05 PM
I wonder if there are any Anthropologists here, income used to be a very accepted nature. Some were rich by luck, mazal, or inherited. Then of course you had those that hustled, worked hard etc.. many were content to work hard, earn, save, build. Yes dishonesty and crooks always existed.

Ready capital and modern entertainment gave way to entitlement. The american dream is about the capacity to earn what you are willing and able to work for, not what you want.

Any ways, the details of this case aside, have you ever been confident in telling your friends / kids etc "im sorry but we cannot afford that now" and not be embarrassed ?

We need to be more honest with ourselves and friends / family members, the friend that is quick to drop their cc to pay the bill? maybe its not a millage grab, maybe they want you to see that everything is fine, yet they are loaded with 25k in cc debt paying 16%

I could go on forever, but we need to be honest about what kind of message we want to give off, are we ok with what we have and yet work hard to provide a good life, or do we need to live beyond our means because thats what everyone does.
Is that really a problem specific to Jewish culture? Isn't that part of being middle class American?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: nsastamps on July 02, 2017, 09:49:31 PM
Please.  They covered it promptly enough. And I haven't seen it on any real national news.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/02/vandals-post-anti-jewish-banner-at-holocaust-memorial.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Vandals-Post-Anti-Semitic-Banner-on-NJ-Holocaust-Memorial-432144943.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-jewish-banner-holocaust-memorial-new-jersey-lakewood-synagogue/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/us/new-jersey-anti-semitism/index.html
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Anti-Semitic-Messages-Vandalize-New-Jersey-Synagogue-432147203.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Aaaron on July 02, 2017, 09:52:15 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/02/vandals-post-anti-jewish-banner-at-holocaust-memorial.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Vandals-Post-Anti-Semitic-Banner-on-NJ-Holocaust-Memorial-432144943.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-jewish-banner-holocaust-memorial-new-jersey-lakewood-synagogue/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/us/new-jersey-anti-semitism/index.html
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Anti-Semitic-Messages-Vandalize-New-Jersey-Synagogue-432147203.html

Fair enough.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: syp5 on July 03, 2017, 12:35:24 AM
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2017/07/review-hafners-take.html?m=1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 03, 2017, 06:44:48 AM
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2017/07/review-hafners-take.html?m=1
Is that what he wants? An investigation into all the illegal immigrants getting paid cash??? Is he serious?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 03, 2017, 08:53:28 AM
Is that what he wants? An investigation into all the illegal immigrants getting paid cash??? Is he serious?
Why would they need to investigate ALL immigrants being paid cash? They can start with the more egregious ones.

Or according to your logic, they should do it the same way must have investigated every Jew with an LLC.

There has been a long standing sentiment that all of the offices administering these programs have given preferential treatment to the illegal immigrants over the Orthodox Jews. I know someone whose wife spent part of her childhood in Mexico and speaks Spanish like a Mexican native. He has told me that since she started going to these offices speaking Spanish instead of English she has been treated much differently.

Yes, the illegals receive these programs for their children born here.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 03, 2017, 08:59:04 AM
Why would they need to investigate ALL immigrants being paid cash? They can start with the more egregious ones.

Or according to your logic, they should do it the same way must have investigated every Jew with an LLC.

There has been a long standing sentiment that all of the offices administering these programs have given preferential treatment to the illegal immigrants over the Orthodox Jews. I know someone whose wife spent part of her childhood in Mexico and speaks Spanish like a Mexican native. He has told me that since she started going to these offices speaking Spanish instead of English she has been treated much differently.

Yes, the illegals receive these programs for their children born here.
Missed my point. Where do you think that investigation will end???
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 03, 2017, 09:00:02 AM
Missed my point. Where do you think that investigation will end???
I don't understand your question.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 03, 2017, 09:02:39 AM
I don't understand your question.
You 1099 your cleaning help?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 03, 2017, 09:03:25 AM
I don't understand your question.
https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/06/30/doj-increasing-penalty-for-hiring-illegal-immigrants.amp.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 03, 2017, 09:15:06 AM
He couldn't care less about that. Either way, his point is not that they should investigate them anyhow. It does show a contrast.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: smart man on July 03, 2017, 09:32:12 AM
He couldn't care less about that.
I know and that's why it's 🗑
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 03, 2017, 09:34:46 AM
I know and that's why it's 🗑
Why does it mean that?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on July 03, 2017, 08:52:55 PM
https://m.facebook.com/brian.arasz?fref=nf#!/photo.php?fbid=10212692840063401&id=1458180450&set=a.1833186676926.2105804.1458180450&source=48&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10212692840383409%3Atl_objid.10212692840383409%3Athrowback_story_fbid.10212692840383409%3Athid.1458180450%3A306061129499414%3A2%3A0%3A1501570799%3A5093331608694437548&__tn__=E
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dawie on July 04, 2017, 10:47:03 AM
https://m.facebook.com/brian.arasz?fref=nf#!/photo.php?fbid=10212692840063401&id=1458180450&set=a.1833186676926.2105804.1458180450&source=48&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10212692840383409%3Atl_objid.10212692840383409%3Athrowback_story_fbid.10212692840383409%3Athid.1458180450%3A306061129499414%3A2%3A0%3A1501570799%3A5093331608694437548&__tn__=E
+10000 on this response

Elisha Brady
 I'm calling BS on this.

 

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dawie on July 04, 2017, 10:55:44 AM
You heard this one from Bernie Sanders or Bill DeBlasio? Some other far left quack?
whoops i didn;t read carefully before posting
i dont even understand what it says
My point was to call BS on the whole story

i now deleted the points
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 10:57:28 AM
whoops i didn;t read carefully before posting
i dont even understand what it says
My point was to call BS on the whole story

i now deleted the points
Message removed.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 10:58:39 AM
+10000 on this response

Elisha Brady
 I'm calling BS on this.

 


Absolutely. Who would go tell that to the seller even if it was true?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 05, 2017, 10:24:26 PM
 ???
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2017, 10:37:01 PM
How many different ways is this going to be spun?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2017, 10:56:59 PM
How many different ways is this going to be spun?
At least kaful shmona
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ttn on July 06, 2017, 08:44:53 AM
Are the arrests in lakewood over?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: nobiggy on July 06, 2017, 08:56:06 AM
???
From age 21 and up you can include all income accessible to you so....
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 09:04:05 AM
Are the arrests in lakewood over?
Is there anyone left to arrest?  :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Is there anyone left to arrest?  :)
It's not CHicago
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ShlockDoc on July 06, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Are the arrests in lakewood over?

If the crimes have stopped being committed. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 09:06:09 AM
It's not CHicago
Plenty left in Chicago.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 09:06:29 AM
If the crimes have stopped being committed. 
They only arrest for things being done at the time?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 09:23:15 AM
Plenty left in Chicago.
There are plenty of non-orthodox left in Lakewood too. They weren't touched.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ShlockDoc on July 06, 2017, 09:25:11 AM
There are plenty of non-orthodox left in Lakewood too. They weren't touched.

Huh?  Gentiles in Lakewood are arrested every day. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 09:44:41 AM
Huh?  Gentiles in Lakewood are arrested every day. 
By the FBI?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 09:49:09 AM
By the FBI?
Of course not. Once they find out they are gentiles they let them go.  ::)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 06, 2017, 10:40:09 AM
By the FBI?

I would guess it's much harder for the FBI to uncover similar fraud amongst non-Jews as you won't find the same interconnectivity amongst businesses, friends and family.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: MisterHock on July 06, 2017, 11:17:12 AM
Round 3:
http://www.app.com/story/news/local/jackson-lakewood/2017/07/06/lakewood-welfare-fraud-arrests/454626001/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hachover on July 06, 2017, 11:20:42 AM
???

I wonder whether the people who think that's spot on really believe that everyone lies about their income on cc applications and so on, or if they just believe that there is some correlation between making a fuss over this welfare fraud case and being a person who lies on cc applications. Either way, I think it's a ridiculous way of saying 'people who live in glass houses', when most people in fact don't (in this case).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 06, 2017, 11:50:05 AM
I wonder whether the people who think that's spot on really believe that everyone lies about their income on cc applications and so on, or if they just believe that there is some correlation between making a fuss over this welfare fraud case and being a person who lies on cc applications. Either way, I think it's a ridiculous way of saying 'people who live in glass houses', when most people in fact don't (in this case).

Also, is it really necessary to lie on a CC application? I didn't think the banks were so fussy.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dave321 on July 06, 2017, 11:54:30 AM
12 more people just arrested
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 06, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
12 more people just arrested
You referring to this or an additional 12 ?
Round 3:
http://www.app.com/story/news/local/jackson-lakewood/2017/07/06/lakewood-welfare-fraud-arrests/454626001/
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: shaulyaakov on July 06, 2017, 12:19:41 PM
Amounts are getting smaller and defendants were issued summons instead of being arrested. Maybe this is the end.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dave321 on July 06, 2017, 12:23:20 PM
Amounts are getting smaller and defendants were issued summons instead of being arrested. Maybe this is the end.
the summons was negotiated by huge hockers in lakewood that there would be no perp walk. FBI wanted to drag each and every one out
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 06, 2017, 12:31:21 PM
the summons was negotiated by huge hockers in lakewood that there would be no perp walk. FBI wanted to drag each and every one out
What did they offer for negotiation ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: syp5 on July 06, 2017, 12:33:25 PM
the summons was negotiated by huge hockers in lakewood that there would be no perp walk. FBI wanted to drag each and every one out

I think that's incorrect.
Charges under 75k is a 3rd degree charge which generally results in a summons.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yuneeq on July 06, 2017, 12:35:49 PM
the summons was negotiated by huge hockers in lakewood that there would be no perp walk. FBI wanted to drag each and every one out

Makes sense because they decided to single out the Jews.

http://www.recordonline.com/news/20170705/23-charged-in-orange-county-welfare-fraud-sweep

Quote
The investigation was done by the county’s Department of Social Services Special Investigations Unit, sheriff’s investigators and the district attorney’s office. District attorney’s investigators interviewed each person before charges were filed, said District Attorney David Hoovler."

Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 12:39:30 PM
FTFY

Millions of dollars were spent targeting the Lakewood frum community. They need to show something for it.
How do you figure "millions"?
The many manhours of a large team over a large number of years.
You really need it give it a break.
http://www.app.com/story/news/local/jackson-lakewood/2017/07/06/lakewood-welfare-fraud-arrests/454626001/
Quote
Authorities have said the suspects are accused of taking part in sophisticated schemes that make the fraud one of the largest investigations in  recent New Jersey history.

Meanwhile these are pretty poor results from "one of the largest investigations in recent NJ history". There is so much government corruption going on in NJ that everyone knows about and THIS is what they are making their largest investigations on?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 12:42:31 PM
Makes sense because they decided to single out the Jews.

http://www.recordonline.com/news/20170705/23-charged-in-orange-county-welfare-fraud-sweep


In honesty the numbers there are dwrafed by what we are discussing here. This can be simply because of the larger families creating larger benefit eligibility.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Moshe123 on July 06, 2017, 12:49:06 PM
My question is, obviously the amounts are small, but by how much was their income underrepresented?

Also, all of these have stopped already a few years ago.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 12:52:53 PM
Meanwhile these are pretty poor results from "one of the largest investigations in recent NJ history". There is so much government corruption going on in NJ that everyone knows about and THIS is what they are making their largest investigations on?
Going to call you the "Spin Doctor".  :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 12:55:19 PM
This thread got me thinking. Were is Mesh?  :)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 06, 2017, 01:21:55 PM
This thread got me thinking. Were is Mesh?  :)

Jail?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 01:25:31 PM
Jail?
You said it not me.  :P
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 06, 2017, 02:27:45 PM
Hearing that some of the summonses are based on extremely high credit card usage (MS perhaps) and that statements were subpoenaed.
Also hearing that the lakewood askonim believe this is an antisemitic witchhunt in most cases.
 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: iwlw2 on July 06, 2017, 02:38:22 PM
Hearing that some of the summonses are based on extremely high credit card usage (MS perhaps) and that statements were subpoenaed.
Also hearing that the lakewood askonim believe this is an antisemitic witchhunt in most cases.
Very interesting. What constitutes "extremely high CC usage" approx.? Also, which askonim are you referring to?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 02:45:43 PM
Very interesting. What constitutes "extremely high CC usage" approx.? Also, which askonim are you referring to?
A godd example would be someone spending $10,000 each month and paying the bill while only reporting $5000 in income.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ttn on July 06, 2017, 02:52:02 PM
Would they only look into high credit card spending if they had other reasons to look into that person before?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 06, 2017, 02:53:35 PM
Would they only look into high credit card spending if they had other reasons to look into that person before?

I would think it's only used as additional evidence of fraud. 
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Toasted on July 06, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
I doubt they can summon all cc records of all of lkwd and hit ms'ers. It's something they can check if they're already investigating.

Here's the rule of thumb:
(http://www.vladtv.com/images/size_fs/video_image-466243.jpg)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 06, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
A godd example would be someone spending $10,000 each month and paying the bill while only reporting $5000 in income.
another thing they may look at is the reported income on CC application.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 06, 2017, 04:32:41 PM
another thing they may look at is the reported income on CC application.
Highly doubt it. Unless you're messing around with the banks.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 04:32:48 PM
another thing they may look at is the reported income on CC application.
Possibly but unlikely since it is really meanless with no real standards as to what can be included.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 06, 2017, 04:34:29 PM
For immediate publication, please publish, you have my permission to publish - For Verification Rev. Dr. Eric Hafner- 1001 Fischer Blvd Unit 155, Toms River, NJ 08753 eric@erichafner.com (email is best way to reach, if you need phone please email) ) -____________
Dear Editor,

 It is highly suspicious to observe only Orthodox Jews being prosecuted, with mugshots being plastered across to the media, in what Ocean County Prosecutor Joseph Coronato has termed as a crackdown on welfare fraud in Lakewood. Not a single-member of Lakewood's large Mexican immigrant population, who are often paid in cash and lacking lawful immigration status are being accused of such fraud.

 It is improbable that in a town-wide crackdown, the only offenders would be from the Orthodox community. While convicted sex offenders charged with new crimes have been released with no bail in Ocean County, some of the Lakewood residents charged in this prosecution (which appears to be a persecution), have been forced to pay $100,000 bail in order to secure their pre-trial release.

 In 2015, Ocean County Prosecutor Joseph Coronato declined to prosecute the neo-nazi daughter of a NJ State Trooper who tweeted threats to bomb and run over members of Lakewood's Orthodox Jewish community with her car, with photos of her prospective targets, including young Jewish children. In 2010, Amit Bornstein, a Jewish man from Marlboro died in the Monmouth County Jail after being beaten by Sheriff's Officers. Anti-semitism has long been a problem among law enforcement in New Jersey, and these recent events show that it has yet to be addressed.

Rev. Dr. Eric Hafner Recent Candidate for U.S. Congress Toms River, NJ
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 04:51:43 PM
For immediate publication, please publish, you have my permission to publish - For Verification Rev. Dr. Eric Hafner- 1001 Fischer Blvd Unit 155, Toms River, NJ 08753 eric@erichafner.com (email is best way to reach, if you need phone please email) ) -____________
Dear Editor,

 It is highly suspicious to observe only Orthodox Jews being prosecuted, with mugshots being plastered across to the media, in what Ocean County Prosecutor Joseph Coronato has termed as a crackdown on welfare fraud in Lakewood. Not a single-member of Lakewood's large Mexican immigrant population, who are often paid in cash and lacking lawful immigration status are being accused of such fraud.

 It is improbable that in a town-wide crackdown, the only offenders would be from the Orthodox community. While convicted sex offenders charged with new crimes have been released with no bail in Ocean County, some of the Lakewood residents charged in this prosecution (which appears to be a persecution), have been forced to pay $100,000 bail in order to secure their pre-trial release.

 In 2015, Ocean County Prosecutor Joseph Coronato declined to prosecute the neo-nazi daughter of a NJ State Trooper who tweeted threats to bomb and run over members of Lakewood's Orthodox Jewish community with her car, with photos of her prospective targets, including young Jewish children. In 2010, Amit Bornstein, a Jewish man from Marlboro died in the Monmouth County Jail after being beaten by Sheriff's Officers. Anti-semitism has long been a problem among law enforcement in New Jersey, and these recent events show that it has yet to be addressed.

Rev. Dr. Eric Hafner Recent Candidate for U.S. Congress Toms River, NJ
#fakenews
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 06, 2017, 04:54:16 PM
What's fake? Is there no such person?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 04:55:04 PM
This guy is trying to get himself on the map to get into a political position of any sort so he can work on legalizing marijuana. He will say any stupidity he thinks will help him in that direction.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 06, 2017, 04:56:24 PM
Got it. Still think his message counteracts some of the vitriol.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Mountain Man on July 06, 2017, 07:26:31 PM
What I don't get about the APP article is that they mention the money like it's some huge egregious amount. I'm not condoning Medicaid fraud but the tone is much softer if they were to say "XXX Couple had 2 child deliveries and a dozen medical checkups over a 3 year period". I've worked with NJ Medicaid before in a former career. These amounts are likely not what Medicaid paid out. If I recall correctly I dealt with an indigent high acuity patient that billed over $1 million for the month and got $4,000 or so in reimbursement from NJ Medicaid. The amounts listed in this article likely may be much higher than the actual costs.

I don't know anything about these individuals and I don't want to know. I can say that Medicaid (especially after the affordable care act) can be very easy to get on and hard to get off. It is suspicious that it seems there is only one community in one township in the country that is in focus right now. On my way to work I pass dozens of homeless many of whom are constantly in emergency care (judging by the number of ambulances I see). How come FBI agents aren't going after them for needlessly abusing our welfare system? Why don't they also harass people who made poor life decisions requiring them to be wardens of the state? I'm not saying these families are innocent (though we should consider them so until proven guilty, right?) I am saying that they are a tiny drop in an ocean of Medicaid abusers.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: flyingace on July 06, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
What I don't get about the APP article is that they mention the money like it's some huge egregious amount. I'm not condoning Medicaid fraud but the tone is much softer if they were to say "XXX Couple had 2 child deliveries and a dozen medical checkups over a 3 year period". I've worked with NJ Medicaid before in a former career. These amounts are likely not what Medicaid paid out. If I recall correctly I dealt with an indigent high acuity patient that billed over $1 million for the month and got $4,000 or so in reimbursement from NJ Medicaid. The amounts listed in this article likely may be much higher than the actual costs.

I don't know anything about these individuals and I don't want to know. I can say that Medicaid (especially after the affordable care act) can be very easy to get on and hard to get off. It is suspicious that it seems there is only one community in one township in the country that is in focus right now. On my way to work I pass dozens of homeless many of whom are constantly in emergency care (judging by the number of ambulances I see). How come FBI agents aren't going after them for needlessly abusing our welfare system? Why don't they also harass people who made poor life decisions requiring them to be wardens of the state? I'm not saying these families are innocent (though we should consider them so until proven guilty, right?) I am saying that they are a tiny drop in an ocean of Medicaid abusers.
Which is why some people are reading this effort as anti-Semitic. Not that the accused must be innocent, but the motivation here seems quite suspect.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2017, 08:07:57 PM
Which is why some people are reading this effort as anti-Semitic. Not that the accused must be innocent, but the motivation here seems quite suspect.
I think it is a lot more involved. Probably payback for this (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72155.0). You know what they say about those that live in glass houses.  ;)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 06, 2017, 08:52:12 PM
You know what they say about those that live in glass houses.  ;)
.....Dont throw covfefe.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2017, 09:15:00 PM

I don't know anything about these individuals and I don't want to know. I can say that Medicaid (especially after the affordable care act) can be very easy to get on and hard to get off.
+1000

Almost every time I try to help people who are on Medicaid, and are no longer eligible, disenroll from Medicaid and enroll in something else, it is a hassle, often requiring multiple calls, escalation, etc.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: mgarfin on July 06, 2017, 09:21:51 PM
+1000

Almost every time I try to help people who are on Medicaid, and are no longer eligible, disenroll from Medicaid and enroll in something else, it is a hassle, often requiring multiple calls, escalation, etc.

After being off Medicaid for a year I suddenly found myself back on!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Zkpncs48 on July 06, 2017, 10:26:20 PM
I heard that one of todays arrests was for not reporting miles earned as income! I'm not sure if he sold them and didn't report it or the miles themselves is what they got him for
They were investigating him because of the huge amounts of MS, including swiping for others, that were going through his bank accounts.
When everything checked out and they couldn't get him on thr actual money they went after him because of the miles.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: AsherO on July 06, 2017, 10:47:09 PM
What I don't get about the APP article is that they mention the money like it's some huge egregious amount. I'm not condoning Medicaid fraud but the tone is much softer if they were to say "XXX Couple had 2 child deliveries and a dozen medical checkups over a 3 year period". I've worked with NJ Medicaid before in a former career. These amounts are likely not what Medicaid paid out. If I recall correctly I dealt with an indigent high acuity patient that billed over $1 million for the month and got $4,000 or so in reimbursement from NJ Medicaid. The amounts listed in this article likely may be much higher than the actual costs.

Maybe special-needs children (whose families were targeted), incur higher costs because Medicaid pays for their therapy and their aides. Those costs are still high for recipients who have an aide at home 24/7 and multiple therapy sessions a week.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ttn on July 06, 2017, 11:29:42 PM
I heard that one of todays arrests was for not reporting miles earned as income! I'm not sure if he sold them and didn't report it or the miles themselves is what they got him for
They were investigating him because of the huge amounts of MS, including swiping for others, that were going through his bank accounts.
When everything checked out and they couldn't get him on thr actual money they went after him because of the miles.
Where did you hear that and can anyone confirm this?
 And is it that something you would have to report legally?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 07, 2017, 09:44:16 AM
I heard that one of todays arrests was for not reporting miles earned as income! I'm not sure if he sold them and didn't report it or the miles themselves is what they got him for
They were investigating him because of the huge amounts of MS, including swiping for others, that were going through his bank accounts.
When everything checked out and they couldn't get him on thr actual money they went after him because of the miles.
since when is miles a currency?
Do I have to report my voice rewards also?
What abt all my free 10th coffees on my punch card?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 07, 2017, 09:46:43 AM
I heard that one of todays arrests was for not reporting miles earned as income! I'm not sure if he sold them and didn't report it or the miles themselves is what they got him for
They were investigating him because of the huge amounts of MS, including swiping for others, that were going through his bank accounts.
When everything checked out and they couldn't get him on thr actual money they went after him because of the miles.
If true then the defense lawyer should have an easy time and this will lead to the embarrassment of the prosecutors
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on July 07, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Miles aren't taxable, why would they go after that? Unless you are referring to a mileage broker who makes money on the spread...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 07, 2017, 09:53:25 AM
cant believe that people are stealing from the government, and even worse from the rest of lakewood
everyone pays more taxes because everyone is on programs.

maybe now the taxes will go down?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: theduke on July 07, 2017, 09:55:24 AM
cant believe that people are stealing from the government, and even worse from the rest of lakewood
everyone pays more taxes because everyone is on programs.

maybe now the taxes will go down?
most programs are state level and has nothing to do with local real estate taxes.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 07, 2017, 09:57:56 AM
most programs are state level and has nothing to do with local real estate taxes.

they are still stealing. if all over NJ people would be honest then taxes would be lowered.

are you justifying stealing?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 07, 2017, 10:31:16 AM
they are still stealing. if all over NJ people would be honest then taxes would be lowered.

are you justifying stealing?
Taxes would be lowered? HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

They would use it to give more needles to Newark.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 10:37:41 AM
If true then the defense lawyer should have an easy time and this will lead to the embarrassment of the prosecutors
+1, feel free to call on me to testify.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 07, 2017, 10:39:15 AM
+1, feel free to call on me to testify.
I will pass it on.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on July 07, 2017, 11:02:23 AM
+1, feel free to call on me to testify.

thats good PR for you
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
If true then the defense lawyer should have an easy time and this will lead to the embarrassment of the prosecutors
Have you talked to a lawyer about this?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 07, 2017, 11:07:12 AM
Have you talked to a lawyer about this?
No
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 11:17:02 AM
since when is miles a currency?
Do I have to report my voice rewards also?
What abt all my free 10th coffees on my punch card?
If you sold all your free coffees... It's a grey area. It's hard claiming something is a rebate and not income when earnings exceed spending.

(If you would buy something for $500 and get a $25 rebate, that wouldn't be income. If you would then go and sell that for $494, the $19 differential should be counted as income. This is basically what much of MS is. Selling miles is even greyer, iinm.)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Bukboy on July 07, 2017, 11:24:44 AM
Taxes would be lowered? HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

They would use it to give more needles to Newark.
they are still stealing. if all over NJ people would be honest then taxes would be lowered.

are you justifying stealing?
+1 צוריק גייט א פייג
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 07, 2017, 11:25:38 AM
If it's so grey unlikely there would be arrests over it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: moko on July 07, 2017, 11:44:39 AM
cant believe that people are stealing from the government, and even worse from the rest of lakewood
everyone pays more taxes because everyone is on programs.

maybe now the taxes will go down?
Taxes don't go down.
As a side note, I know someone who was unemployed, collecting medicaid, unemployment, and food stamps. He then got a job in another state and reported to all 3 agencies that he he got a job out of state and was no longer eligible for services. the only agency that canceled him was unemployment. Recently he told that he still gets gets letters from medicaid office and his current food stamps balance is over $10000.
Obviously he doesn't touch it but for legal purposes he   maintains every document that he ever sent them. So the govt should be arrested for being completely incompetent and tying up taxpayer dollars endlessly in the "system". it almost makes one say that t least with fraud someone benefited. In this case the money is just going to disappear. I can just imagine the accounting nightmare when some wakes up one and discovers thousands of such cases with millions tied up but never spent.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 11:51:11 AM
If it's so grey unlikely there would be arrests over it.
Depends on the amount. Also selling something that you received free is not a grey area.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yoohoo on July 07, 2017, 11:53:40 AM
Depends on the amount. Also selling something that you received free is not a grey area.
forget selling miles, is milage earned taxable? Who decides the value?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 11:55:36 AM
Depends on the amount. Also selling something that you received free is not a grey area.
If you get 2% cash back you don't owe tax on a purchase rebate.
If you sell the miles you earned on a card instead of earning cash back, how is that not still a purchase rebate?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Shotguns on July 07, 2017, 11:55:43 AM
Miles are not taxable income if they are redeemed for flights. However, if they are sold then it is considered taxable income.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
forget selling miles, is milage earned taxable? Who decides the value?
Mileage earned and you used for personal use is not an issue.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 11:58:31 AM
If you get 2% cash back you don't owe tax on a purchase rebate.
If you sell the miles you earned on a card instead of earning cash back, how is that not still a purchase rebate?
Capital gain?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yelped on July 07, 2017, 11:58:42 AM
Miles are not taxable income if they are redeemed for flights. However, if they are sold then it is considered taxable income.
Why? What if you redeem them for Visa gift cards? Is that taxable? What's the difference if it's flights or VGCs?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 11:59:29 AM


forget selling miles, is milage earned taxable?

Miles earned from credit cards and flights are generally considered to be non taxable (although logically, RT should make things interesting).


Who decides the value?

There is generally a "Fair Retail Value" assigned, that is used for 1099 purposes in sweepstakes and bank bonuses, for example.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:00:16 PM
Capital gain?
You buy something for $100.
A 2% CB card gives you $2 cash back, non-taxable purchase rebate.
A 2mpd card gives you 2 miles as a purchase rebate. You sell to a broker for $3. Why is that $3 not a purchase rebate from your $100 purchase, just like the cash back is? I'd argue it is.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 07, 2017, 12:00:56 PM
Miles are not taxable income if they are redeemed for flights. However, if they are sold then it is considered taxable income.
+.05
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Malachi on July 07, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
The Way I understand it is even if Miles aren't Taxable It still is considered income for the programs. I'm not sure about Medicaid but for sure for Food Stamps
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 12:01:11 PM
If you get 2% cash back you don't owe tax on a purchase rebate.
If you sell the miles you earned on a card instead of earning cash back, how is that not still a purchase rebate?
What if I sold that 2% cash for 2.8%? Yes that is possible and don't ask.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yelped on July 07, 2017, 12:01:26 PM
You buy something for $100.
A 2% CB card gives you $2 cash back, non-taxable purchase rebate.
A 2mpd card gives you 2 miles as a purchase rebate. You sell to a broker for $3. Why is that $3 not a purchase rebate from your $100 purchase, just like the cash back is? I'd argue it is.
I think you mean Isn't.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 12:01:34 PM
Why? What if you redeem them for Visa gift cards? Is that taxable? What's the difference if it's flights or VGCs?
Fly 10 times, get one flight free (which is what miles are to a degree) is another form of rebate.

If the miles earned are from business travel that was expensed, and redeemed for business travel, that generally would be taxable.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 12:02:07 PM
The Way I understand it is even if Miles aren't Taxable It still is considered income for the programs. I'm not sure about Medicaid but for sure for Food Stamps
Never thought of that. Ouch!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:02:26 PM
If the miles earned are from business travel that was expensed, and redeemed for business travel, that generally would be taxable.
-1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: chevron on July 07, 2017, 12:02:33 PM
How many miles are we talking about already ? 200k in MS ? 500k in MS ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:03:03 PM
The Way I understand it is even if Miles aren't Taxable It still is considered income for the programs. I'm not sure about Medicaid but for sure for Food Stamps
So cash back from a credit card is income now for EBT?
Source?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
How many miles are we talking about already ? 200k in MS ? 500k in MS ?
Likely well beyond 200k to 500k miles...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 12:04:29 PM
If the miles earned are from business travel that was expensed, and redeemed for business travel, that generally would be taxable.
There is guidance from the IRS for businesses but AFAIK nothing on personal use.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Shotguns on July 07, 2017, 12:05:19 PM
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/a-02-18.pdf
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Malachi on July 07, 2017, 12:05:32 PM
So cash back from a credit card is income now for EBT?
Source?
from my Lawyer. That is his interpretation of the law. I'm sure you can find others who might disagree..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:06:03 PM
from my Lawyer. That is his interpretation of the law. I'm sure you can find others who might disagree..
Find a new lawyer?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 12:08:26 PM
Quote
Part IV
Items of General Interest
Frequent Flyer Miles Attributable to Business or Official Travel
Announcement 2002-18
Most major airlines offer frequent flyer programs under which passengers
accumulate miles for each flight. Individuals may also earn frequent flyer miles
or other promotional benefits, for example, through rental cars or hotels. These
promotional benefits may generally be exchanged for upgraded seating, free
travel, discounted travel, travel-related services, or other services or benefits.
Questions have been raised concerning the taxability of frequent flyer miles or
other promotional items that are received as the result of business travel and
used for personal purposes. There are numerous technical and administrative
issues relating to these benefits on which no official guidance has been provided,
including issues relating to the timing and valuation of income inclusions and the
basis for identifying personal use benefits attributable to business (or official)
expenditures versus those attributable to personal expenditures. Because of
these unresolved issues, the IRS has not pursued a tax enforcement program
with respect to promotional benefits such as frequent flyer miles.
Consistent with prior practice, the IRS will not assert that any taxpayer has
understated his federal tax liability by reason of the receipt or personal use of
frequent flyer miles or other in-kind promotional benefits attributable to the
taxpayer’s business or official travel. Any future guidance on the taxability of
these benefits will be applied prospectively.
This relief does not apply to travel or other promotional benefits that are
converted to cash, to compensation that is paid in the form of travel or other
promotional benefits, or in other circumstances where these benefits are used for
tax avoidance purposes.
For information regarding this announcement, call (202) 622-4606 (not a toll-free
number). Alternatively, taxpayers may transmit comments electronically via the
following e-mail address: Notice.Comments@irscounsel.treas.gov. Please
include “Announcement 2002-18" in the subject line of any electronic
communications.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:09:31 PM
We're not talking about travel converted to cash, we're talking about credit card purchase rebates.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 12:11:28 PM
You buy something for $100.
A 2% CB card gives you $2 cash back, non-taxable purchase rebate.
A 2mpd card gives you 2 miles as a purchase rebate. You sell to a broker for $3. Why is that $3 not a purchase rebate from your $100 purchase, just like the cash back is? I'd argue it is.
I hear your argument, but I would counter, that once you got the rebate which in this case in not in the form of cash/currency, but rather something else (a commodity?), and now you sell it for more than the bank would credit you for it (IINM Chase allows you to use UR at a value of 1 cent towards your balance) which could be considered true FMV, as T&C don't allow selling, the difference between what the bank would give you for it, and what you sold it for could be a capital gain.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 07, 2017, 12:12:26 PM
There is guidance from the IRS for businesses but AFAIK nothing on personal use.
And that's why it's
unlikely there would be arrests over it.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 12:15:09 PM
We're not talking about travel converted to cash, we're talking about credit card purchase rebates.
But once you SELL those credit card purchase rebates, which are not given in cash, for more than the bank will buy them from you, that might be a taxable activity.

We didn't even touch on the subject of sign-up bonuses.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:16:27 PM
I hear your argument, but I would counter, that once you got the rebate which in this case in not in the form of cash/currency, but rather something else (a commodity?), and now you sell it for more than the bank would credit you for it (IINM Chase allows you to use UR at a value of 1 cent towards your balance) which could be considered true FMV, as T&C don't allow selling, the difference between what the bank would give you for it, and what you sold it for could be a capital gain.
And AMEX/Chase used to sell their points for 2.5 cents each, so it's actually below market value.
Airlines will 1099 you for 2 cents per mile, again, you're selling that commodity at below market value.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:16:46 PM
We didn't even touch on the subject of sign-up bonuses.
It's a purchase rebate on your first $1K-$5K of spending.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 12:17:07 PM
The form of the rebate is meaningless. Once you sell that rebate you have a tax issue.

Also remember most points/miles have no value so the whole amount you receive is going to be an issue.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
And AMEX/Chase used to sell their points for 2.5 cents each, so it's actually below market value.
Airlines will 1099 you for 2 cents per mile, again, you're selling that commodity at below market value.
You are making a valid argument, but there are arguments to counter that. If it ever went to tax court, which I doubt it will, it would be interesting to see how true valuation experts will chime in on this.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 12:27:06 PM
It's a purchase rebate on your first $1K-$5K of spending.
As mentioned, RT makes that interesting.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 07, 2017, 12:27:47 PM
You are making a valid argument, but there are arguments to counter that. If it ever went to tax court, which I doubt it will, it would be interesting to see how true valuation experts will chime in on this.
It has, iinm.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 12:32:26 PM
PSA: Anyone involved in these games please seek competent legal advice.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 12:34:58 PM
PSA: Anyone involved in these games please seek competent legal advice.
+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 12:35:04 PM
It has, iinm.
Link?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 07, 2017, 12:41:47 PM
You buy something for $100.
A 2% CB card gives you $2 cash back, non-taxable purchase rebate.
A 2mpd card gives you 2 miles as a purchase rebate. You sell to a broker for $3. Why is that $3 not a purchase rebate from your $100 purchase, just like the cash back is? I'd argue it is.

In your first example, you now have a $98 basis in the item you bought. No taxable income unless you sell the item for more than $98.

In your second example, you have a $100 basis that needs to be allocated between the item acquired and the miles received. How much to allocate to the miles is subject to debate. Once you have allocated the $100 accordingly, you have no taxable income unless you sell the item or miles ands the amount received exceeds the allocated basis.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yitzf on July 07, 2017, 12:49:08 PM
In your first example, you now have a $98 basis in the item you bought. No taxable income unless you sell the item for more than $98.

In your second example, you have a $100 basis that needs to be allocated between the item acquired and the miles received. How much to allocate to the miles is subject to debate. Once you have allocated the $100 accordingly, you have no taxable income unless the amount received exceeds the allocated basis.

^this
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Mountain Man on July 07, 2017, 01:15:52 PM
Maybe special-needs children (whose families were targeted), incur higher costs because Medicaid pays for their therapy and their aides. Those costs are still high for recipients who have an aide at home 24/7 and multiple therapy sessions a week.
I don't think 70k over 3 years is that high. If you every look at how much a delivery without complications costs before insurance "disallowances" you can be talking in the area of 50k. It's possible that these numbers being thrown around are whole numbers before the traditional 80-95% disallowance on a particular charge. Medical reimbursement is an interesting area where what is billed and what is paid often have no semblance to each other. Not saying these people are innocent, I just think that the numbers being thrown around are pumped up to make their sins look more egregious.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Mountain Man on July 07, 2017, 01:27:59 PM
You buy something for $100.
A 2% CB card gives you $2 cash back, non-taxable purchase rebate.
A 2mpd card gives you 2 miles as a purchase rebate. You sell to a broker for $3. Why is that $3 not a purchase rebate from your $100 purchase, just like the cash back is? I'd argue it is.
Because there is a conversion occurring/ the character of the asset is changing. I still think it's a grey area and shouldn't be taxable but I can see how an IRS case could be brought because you aren't making the transfer in-kind. I doubt a case would likely be brought unless it was a slam dunk for the IRS because they wouldn't want to set precedent which could come back to haunt them. But I'm not a tax accountant.

But then you could also argue that points often can be converted to cash or miles at the card level. I think that's why this is an area that IRS doesn't want to get involved in. To much work and risk for very little reward.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 07, 2017, 01:34:02 PM
PSA: Anyone involved in these games please seek competent legal advice.
+1000000 as I have written above. Even if the end result is an acquittal you do not want to go through the process of needing to argue this in court.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Toasted on July 07, 2017, 01:40:04 PM
+1000000 as I have written above. Even if the end result is an acquittal you do not want to go through the process of needing Dan to argue this for you in court.
ftfy
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 01:41:25 PM
In your second example, you have a $100 basis that needs to be allocated between the item acquired and the miles received. How much to allocate to the miles is subject to debate. Once you have allocated the $100 accordingly, you have no taxable income unless you sell the item or miles ands the amount received exceeds the allocated basis.
Not so fast there Skippy.  :)
What if the IRS takes the position the miles have no value and everything you sell them for is taxable?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 07, 2017, 01:52:50 PM
Not so fast there Skippy.  :)
What if the IRS takes the position the miles have no value and everything you sell them for is taxable?
If these miles are a gift from cc, then the adjusted gift basis if sold at a gain would be the donors adjusted bases on date of gift.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hachover on July 07, 2017, 01:56:11 PM
You are making a valid argument, but there are arguments to counter that. If it ever went to tax court, which I doubt it will, it would be interesting to see how true valuation experts will chime in on this.

There are logical arguments on both sides here, which just proves that it's a complex issue and so it's very unlikely to ever be pursued in court. Those who would argue that it should be taxable would need to take the risk of setting a precedent that could have outside ramifications.

Personally, I agree with Dan that it should be treated as a rebate and reduce the basis in the item you purchased to qualify for the rebate. Which would mean that in the case of money-making MS you could argue that ethically you should be reporting taxable income on the excess after the basis is reduced to zero.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: A3 on July 07, 2017, 01:56:53 PM
The cash rebated may not be income for the IRS, but if your reporting costs you should report it at net of the rebate.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 07, 2017, 01:57:01 PM
If these miles are a gift from cc, then the adjusted gift basis if sold at a gain would be the donors adjusted bases on date of gift.

They are not a gift.

Commissioner v. Duberstein, 363 U.S. 278 (1960).
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
Personally, I agree with Dan that it should be treated as a rebate and reduce the basis in the item you purchased to qualify for the rebate. Which would mean that in the case of money-making MS you could argue that ethically you should be reporting taxable income on the excess after the basis is reduced to zero.
Can't wait for the IRS to start going after people who buy $200 Visa GCs from OM for $190 for not reporting $10 of income :D
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Menachem613 on July 07, 2017, 02:05:36 PM
Can't wait for the IRS to start going after people who buy $200 Visa GCs from OM for $190 for not reporting $10 of income :D

It's a rebate.  No one is arguing that point.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 07, 2017, 02:09:23 PM
Can't wait for the IRS to start going after people who buy $200 Visa GCs from OM for $190 for not reporting $10 of income :D
It's a rebate.  No one is arguing that point.
+1 We are talking about selling the rebate no matter what form you receive it in.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Dan on July 07, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
It's a rebate.  No one is arguing that point.
And what happens when you get a $200 MO for that Visa card? Is that now $10 of reportable income?
Is that different that going to Amazon and buying $200 of items?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Emkay on July 07, 2017, 02:39:07 PM


cant believe that people are stealing from the government, and even worse from the rest of lakewood

It's a misguided sense of entitlement. Very much like you being entitled to compensation for not getting upgraded to a suite.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yitzf on July 07, 2017, 02:42:43 PM
Not so fast there Skippy.  :)
What if the IRS takes the position the miles have no value and everything you sell them for is taxable?
The Way I understand it is even if Miles aren't Taxable It still is considered income for the programs. I'm not sure about Medicaid but for sure for Food Stamps
Never thought of that. Ouch!

The IRS has no standing in this issue
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
If these miles are a gift from cc, then the adjusted gift basis if sold at a gain would be the donors adjusted bases on date of gift.
No way in the world one can argue that the miles/points are a gift! Or else people would be getting them randomly without required spend or anything of the sort.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: hachover on July 07, 2017, 02:57:36 PM
And what happens when you get a $200 MO for that Visa card? Is that now $10 of reportable income?
Is that different that going to Amazon and buying $200 of items?

Reportable income is not a matter of opinion - it's a question of law. Since there is no clear cut answer, no one will report it.

But we can state our opinions on the matter anyway. Mine is that yes, it should be income. Hard to imagine that anyone does this type of stuff (even cumulatively) to a scale that would interest the IRS.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: TimT on July 07, 2017, 03:28:54 PM
Hard to imagine that anyone does this type of stuff (even cumulatively) to a scale that would interest the IRS.
You would be surprised
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cholent on July 07, 2017, 04:13:04 PM
You would be surprised

+1
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 07, 2017, 05:31:13 PM
Reportable income is not a matter of opinion - it's a question of law. Since there is no clear cut answer, no one will report it.

But we can state our opinions on the matter anyway. Mine is that yes, it should be income. Hard to imagine that anyone does this type of stuff (even cumulatively) to a scale that would interest the IRS.
The law is very very broad. Income is income.. the burden of proof that the accumulated wealth in a bank account is magically not taxable would be on... Dan...

Section 61(a) of the Internal Revenue Code defines gross income as income from whatever source derived,  including (but not limited to) ..... basically everything!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Redbull3 on July 07, 2017, 05:38:46 PM
Reportable income is not a matter of opinion - it's a question of law. Since there is no clear cut answer, no one will report it.

But we can state our opinions on the matter anyway. Mine is that yes, it should be income. Hard to imagine that anyone does this type of stuff (even cumulatively) to a scale that would interest the IRS.
Points/Miles brokers, TA's...?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on July 07, 2017, 06:18:11 PM
Reportable income is not a matter of opinion - it's a question of law. Since there is no clear cut answer, no one will report it.

But we can state our opinions on the matter anyway. Mine is that yes, it should be income. Hard to imagine that anyone does this type of stuff (even cumulatively) to a scale that would interest the IRS.

Don't know about Lakewood but in general that is incorrect. I don't have first hand knowledge but have heard very reliable reports of scores if not hundreds of people doing 3-10 million a year MS on a 5% card a few years back? That was doable WITH holding down a full time job... harder now but still being done by going through a few more hoops...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on July 07, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Don't know about Lakewood but in general that is incorrect.How about scores if not hundreds of people doing 3-10 million a year MS on a 5% card a few years back? That was doable WITH holding down a full time job... harder now but still being done by going through a few more hoops...
Inbox flooded.  ;)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: chevron on July 07, 2017, 06:29:03 PM
What about swiping small business saturday swiping 200 cards at $25 each? is that 5k in income ?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Redbull3 on July 07, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
What about swiping small business saturday swiping 200 cards at $25 each? is that 5k in income ?
Rebates
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes and Businesses in Monsey and KJ
Post by: 12HRS on July 09, 2017, 12:49:00 AM
Since no one else responded..

See attached, keep in mind this is after taxes are paid and health insurance takes over 800 a month out of my paycheck and a 4000 deductible so I am still paying every visit. PM me if you have any good ideas, for some expenses I took the prior year's actuals and took the average. My average tax rate the last few years was ~14%
Trust me I Dave Ramsey it every month (I make him look easy) but my wife vetos almost every cut  ;) When you are married there is more than one point of view...

Out of curiosity how many kids do you have? Only numbers that I wonder about is $1000 on shopping + $600 on clothing a month. what does all that include? Can you do the lawn yourself to save $1000 a year(minus the cost of a lawn mower and some other tools the first year).


I can guarantee every one of these families started taking programs when they were 100% eligible. Once you're hooked to this free money faucet, it's very difficult to stop. Almost like substance addiction, people who were recently poor have a hard time parting with their survival mindset. If we can assign some medical diagnosis to this, maybe the feds would respect their rights. If a man can feel like a girl, a prince can feel like a pauper. 🌈

So they would then need medicaid to treat them for medicaid addiction?

This thread got me thinking. Were is Mesh?  :)

you have to page him @meshugener
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Jo 08701 on July 09, 2017, 02:26:22 AM
As far as I understand and from what I heard in shul, is that the miles earned although you can argue it's not taxable, however it's considered income in regards to benefits, especially when they can proof it was done on a large scale and consistently.
Overall the six couples from last week and the 3 from a week before is not such a major case, and it wouldn't make the headlines if not for the first round, where it was a first degree federal crime, and more money involved.
Plus the fact that app.com just blow it up for what ever reason. (I let everyone figure out the reason)
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: Tuna Baygel on July 09, 2017, 08:31:10 AM
Can someone post a list of some APP advertisers

I would love to see if there are any of which I do significant spending and send them an email
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: aygart on July 09, 2017, 09:01:57 AM
Can someone post a list of some APP advertisers

I would love to see if there are any of which I do significant spending and send them an email
The problem is that it is really the only advertising medium in the area.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on July 09, 2017, 01:17:17 PM
Can someone post a list of some APP advertisers

I would love to see if there are any of which I do significant spending and send them an email

Much more effective to have thousands of emails sent to advertisers of Gannett. Gannett can tell APP to cut out the race baiting..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: mrprez27 on July 09, 2017, 11:03:39 PM
Is anyone doing anything to combat the harassment/ help our fellow yidden?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 09, 2017, 11:21:23 PM
Is anyone doing anything to combat the harassment/ help our fellow yidden?
Like what?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: yelped on July 09, 2017, 11:30:46 PM
Like what?
Is anyone doing anything to combat the harassment/ help our fellow yidden?
This perhaps? :)

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=61462.msg1761595#msg1761595
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: David Smith on July 10, 2017, 10:39:11 AM
Maybe not everything that is being done to help them should be discussed on a public forum. 

The lesson to take out of this is not to assume nobody is watching what is going on or nobody cares. Always assume you are under surveillance by people that will likely view your activity as abusive if you are doing anything that can be seen as such.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: cmey on July 10, 2017, 10:56:28 AM
Theres plenty being done behind the scenes to help those being targeted

Spreading things around will actually force the OCPs hand. Please be responsible...
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 10, 2017, 11:19:57 AM
Always assume you are under surveillance by people that will likely view your activity as abusive if you are doing anything that can be seen as such.
Winner winner chicken dinner!!!
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2017, 04:58:51 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/kiddush-hashem-lakewood-bank-manager-inspired-by-residents-honesty.html

This error could of shown up on some reconciliation at some point somewhere....
The smart thing to do is return it asap..
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 12, 2017, 07:30:09 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/kiddush-hashem-lakewood-bank-manager-inspired-by-residents-honesty.html

This error could of shown up on some reconciliation at some point somewhere....
The smart thing to do is return it asap..
Wrong thread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: voldemort on July 12, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/community-conversation-about-benefit-programs-set-for-next-week-in-lakewood.html
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: meshugener on February 01, 2018, 05:01:31 PM
This thread got me thinking. Were is Mesh?  :)
Hey what's up
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 01, 2018, 05:02:42 PM
Hey what's up
Was wondering what user name you were using.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: meshugener on February 01, 2018, 05:04:11 PM
Was wondering what user name you were using.
None.

What does && do in JavaScript?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: avromie7 on February 01, 2018, 05:06:58 PM
Hey what's up
Why this thread?
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 01, 2018, 05:10:29 PM
Why this thread?
Because I asked in this thread.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 01, 2018, 05:11:25 PM
None.
We both know differently.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: gingyguy on February 01, 2018, 05:11:33 PM
Why this thread?
כיון שניתן רשות למשחית שוב אין בוחן בין רע לטוב
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: ExGingi on February 01, 2018, 05:22:01 PM
This thread got me thinking. Were is Mesh?  :)
Spelled in proper regular english.
Title: Re: FBI Raids Orthodox Homes
Post by: JoeyShmoe on February 01, 2018, 05:48:16 PM
None.

What does && do in JavaScript?
In case you actually want an answer, it's a way to add a condition in an if statement.
Code: [Select]
if (this && that) { as opposed to || which means or
Code: [Select]
if (this || that) {