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Title: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 15, 2016, 07:42:19 PM
?? :o
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: grodnoking on June 15, 2016, 07:43:20 PM
?? :o
They always put Bills' picture instead.
Besides for when they copy and past from AP and her picture gets in accidentally.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: justaregularguy on June 15, 2016, 07:44:20 PM
They always put Bills' picture instead.

3 years in people will completely forget it was Hillary
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: ShlockDoc on June 15, 2016, 10:19:04 PM
I once spoke to someone who worked there and asked him that exact question. His response: "Why do people need to see pictures of the president?"
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: yakrot on June 15, 2016, 10:34:26 PM
 I think there's a bigger issue, it can rub political higher ups the wrong way if they hear about a Jewish publication editing out the president from all pictures
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: grodnoking on June 15, 2016, 11:20:19 PM
I think there's a bigger issue, it can rub political higher ups the wrong way if they hear about a Jewish publication editing out the president from all pictures
Been there, done that.
The bigger issue is that it rubs the higher ups that someone is ultra religious.
(The issue is the higher ups not the ultra religious)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: etech0 on June 16, 2016, 12:00:03 AM
probably a repost, but...
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Yammer on June 16, 2016, 12:00:47 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/0d3fd89468f30a7cf4091c79927678a6.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Brian93 on June 16, 2016, 12:09:36 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/0d3fd89468f30a7cf4091c79927678a6.jpg)
שיער באישה ערוה??!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 12:10:08 AM


(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/795c70ca00174ec31146c8a45d6a6671.jpg)
FTFY. Can't have anyone seeing her hair, of course.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: coralsnake on June 16, 2016, 12:11:05 AM
FTFY. Can't have anyone seeing her hair, of course.

Way too much arm.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Achas Veachas on June 16, 2016, 12:19:23 AM
שיער באישה ערוה??!
FTFY. Can't have anyone seeing her hair, of course.

You mean the hair is real? :P
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on June 16, 2016, 12:22:28 AM
Wait a minute, Hillary is a woman ??  POIDH!! :P
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 12:35:12 AM
Wait a minute, Hillary is a woman ??  POIDH!!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/5040bd6c2a85536178d74c563324a703.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Yammer on June 16, 2016, 12:35:58 AM
FTFY. Can't have anyone seeing her hair, of course.
It's a wig...
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Achas Veachas on June 16, 2016, 12:38:36 AM
Wait a minute, Hillary is a woman ??  POIDH!! :P
You got her confused with a different (http://www.truthandaction.org/is-michelle-obama-a-transgender/) first lady :P
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 01:04:03 AM
The bigger issue is that it rubs the higher ups that someone is ultra religious.
Ultra religious or nut cases?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 01:06:31 AM
Ultra religious or nut cases?
How do you define a nut case? All religion is illogical/nuts. Then again, so is our existence.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 01:08:50 AM
How do you define a nut case?
When they are happy about the mass murder in Orlando.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 01:53:34 AM
Ultra religious or nut cases?
The latter.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 04:15:39 AM
The latter.
While I personally get some of the filthiest papers delivered daily to my door, do you not see the other side? Is every newspaper that has a blanket policy of no females run by nut jobs?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 06:27:46 AM
We are talking about the POTUS not some 18 year old girl in a bikini. Blanket policies most of the time are a front for something else.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 06:51:48 AM
We are talking about the POTUS not some 18 year old girl in a bikini. Blanket policies most of the time are a front for something else.
Blanket policies are way simpler to deal and cause less issues with their readership. Im not sure what you are trying to insinuate by the second sentence though.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 07:02:20 AM
I am not trying to insinuate anything. While it might be simpler to deal with the women issue it is highly discriminatory. Most religions have been accused of treating women as the lesser of the two and this only strengthens that argument.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 07:16:42 AM
I am not trying to insinuate anything. While it might be simpler to deal with the women issue it is highly discriminatory. Most religions have been accused of treating women as the lesser of the two and this only strengthens that argument.
We have gone through this a myriad of times here that Judaism does not believe that women are the lesser of the two and if you didn't get it the first 17 times frankly you probably wont get it now.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 07:32:05 AM
Remind me where the halacha is that you can't see a fully clothed woman?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 07:35:25 AM
We have gone through this a myriad of times here that Judaism does not believe that women are the lesser of the two and if you didn't get it the first 17 times frankly you probably wont get it now.
I fully understand what you are saying. Not agreeing and not getting it are two different things. Actions speak louder than words. Not looking to rehash this.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: smug on June 16, 2016, 07:38:40 AM
Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer siman chaf-alef 
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 07:49:12 AM
More specific please.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 07:49:48 AM
Remind me where the halacha is that you can't see a fully clothed woman?
Blanket policies.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 07:51:17 AM
Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer siman chaf-alef
It doesn't really say that.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Centro on June 16, 2016, 07:52:53 AM
Ultra religious or nut cases?

The latter.
So there's 2 people,

1. Who'd put his soul in danger by going to Times Square (or any other populated area) where there's lots of half clothed women to put on tfilin for non observant people.

2. Who wouldn't look at a photo of even clothed women (not discussing if its prohibited by halucha) just for God's sake.

So whom would you call nut case???
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: smug on June 16, 2016, 07:54:49 AM
especially siman gimmel- unless your thinking of marrying her  :o
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 08:08:55 AM
especially siman gimmel- unless your thinking of marrying her  :o
דרך זנות
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 08:12:33 AM
So there's 2 people,

1. Who'd put his soul in danger by going to Times Square (or any other populated area) where there's lots of half clothed women to put on tfilin for non observant people.

2. Who wouldn't look at a photo of even clothed women (not discussing if its prohibited by halucha) just for God's sake.

So whom would you call nut case???

Sounds like #1 is having mesiras nefesh to help fulfill one of the Rambam's 13 principles of Judaism, while #2 is being extreme well beyond the limits of halacha and is aiding a chillul hashem.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: smug on June 16, 2016, 08:16:23 AM
read it again. even when muttar i.e to marry  it cant be derech znus
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 08:30:43 AM
read it again. even when muttar i.e to marry  it cant be derech znus
::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 08:33:34 AM
Sounds like #1 is having mesiras nefesh to help fulfill one of the Rambam's 13 principles of Judaism.
I actually eat pork on Tuesdays and Fridays but its fine because I make people frum like that.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 08:34:28 AM
The bottom line is this, if you're doing something (photoshopping out clothed women, delaying planes, etc) that bring massive bad publicity, you need to take a step back and see if what you're doing is really worth fighting for.

Is there halachic basis for what you're doing? Is there something that can be done to avoid making international headlines making chareidim look bad such as buying a 2nd seat if that's your strongly held conviction?

It's easy to say that something isn't a chillul hashem if it's halacha. But how can you claim that when you're doing something that's beyond halacha?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 08:35:10 AM
I actually eat pork on Tuesdays and Fridays but its fine because I make people frum like that.
Right, walking in Times Square is the same as eating pork, great comparison!
I'm assuming you never leave your house in the summer, correct?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 08:38:28 AM
Right, walking in Times Square is the same as eating pork, great comparison!
I'm assuming you never leave your house in the summer, correct?
These things dont apply to me as I said
I personally get some of the filthiest papers delivered daily to my door.

I was just trying to figure out if someone holds its assur to look at a woman in a bikini then it doesn't help regardless of what your purpose is.
(I actually regretted posting that 30 seconds later but it was to late  :) )
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 08:42:27 AM
Having pictures of a woman in a bikini would be assur for the same reason as a fully clothed woman?

How so?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 08:54:30 AM
Having pictures of a woman in a bikini would be assur for the same reason as a fully clothed woman?

How so?
There's a component of א"כ נתת דבריך לשיעורין & לא פלוג.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 08:57:10 AM
The latter.
Those in glass houses...
 
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:08:34 AM
Having pictures of a woman in a bikini would be assur for the same reason as a fully clothed woman?

How so?
I dont recall saying that. Please refresh my memory.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:17:56 AM
I dont recall saying that. Please refresh my memory.
I'm asking how that's possible.
If a picture of a fully clothed woman is going to lead to an aveira, then you probably should be staying inside your home at all times. And forget about having shabbos guests.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:18:46 AM
Those in glass houses...
So you also stay inside your home all summer long?
Cool beans!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
I'm asking how that's possible.
If a picture of a fully clothed woman is going to lead to an aveira, then you probably should be staying inside your home at all times.
Ohh. I agree with that. I dont think it will but I still understand why a newspaper would have a policy of no females. Makes things simpler and less messy.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:22:16 AM
Actually it makes it far messier.
Just look at the C"H caused by photoshopping Hillary out of the war room.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
So you also stay inside your home all summer long?
Cool beans!
You see no difference between necessity and non-necessity?

News = non-necessity
Walking outdoors = necessity.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:26:00 AM
Actually it makes it far messier.
Just look at the C"H caused by photoshopping Hillary out of the war room.
I don't think they give a damn about the world view. They care about their bottom line (which every business does) and what works for their readers.
What should be the geder about which females they post?
What should they consider dressed modestly enough?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:27:06 AM
It's called "Venishmarta Mikol Davar Ra" read it about it, it's in the bible. It's also expounded upon in the Talmud in Avoda Zara.
If they want to be machmir on this, kudos to them. Just like we want to be respected for our opinions and practices whether we are chabad, litvish, modox or whatever, we should respect theirs!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:27:19 AM
You see no difference between necessity and non-necessity?

News = non-necessity
Walking outdoors = necessity.


I was responding to the question of tefilin mivtzoim.

But on the topic of news, if you can't deliver it without causing a massive chillul Hashem then just don't deliver it at all. After all, it's not a necessity.

The justification of something in halacha not being a CH doesn't apply when it's not halacha.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 16, 2016, 09:27:34 AM


You see no difference between necessity and non-necessity?

News = non-necessity
Walking outdoors = necessity.
Putting Tefillin on other Yidden = necessity
FTFY
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: LoLo on June 16, 2016, 09:28:26 AM
Actually it makes it far messier.
Just look at the C"H caused by photoshopping Hillary out of the war room.
That Photoshop was a mess.

Still doesn't change the fact that a blanket policy is much easier to deal with.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:28:48 AM
I don't think they give a damn about the world view. They care about their bottom line (which every business does) and what works for their readers.
What should be the geder about which females they post?
What should they consider dressed modestly enough?
It shouldn't be difficult to draw a line.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:30:23 AM
It shouldn't be difficult to draw a line.
Ummmmm, have you never dealt with 3 other Jews and came to a similar conclusion?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:30:39 AM
FTFY
Guaranteed clothed woman = debatable.

Chance of bikini = not allowed.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
It's called "Venishmarta Mikol Davar Ra" read it about it, it's in the bible. It's also expounded upon in the Talmud in Avoda Zara.
If they want to be machmir on this, kudos to them. Just like we want to be respected for our opinions and practices whether we are chabad, litvish, modox or whatever, we should respect theirs!
So you're saying a full clothed woman is evil?
I could care less what everyone holds when it doesn't cause issues, but when you start causing international controversy for photoshopping and plane delays then I start caring and want to know how the CH is justified.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:32:32 AM
That Photoshop was a mess.

Still doesn't change the fact that a blanket policy is much easier to deal with.
Except as OP notes, a blanket statement no longer works in 2016.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:32:56 AM
You see no difference between necessity and non-necessity?

News = non-necessity
Walking outdoors = necessity.
You forgot one.
Internet = non-necessity
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: LoLo on June 16, 2016, 09:34:54 AM
Except as OP notes, a blanket statement no longer works in 2016.
Blanket statement with no Photoshop? Why?
It works for most Yiddish newspapers with no issues as long as they don't mess around.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:34:59 AM
You forgot one.
Internet = non-necessity
Kinda agree. Guess that's why every decent Jew has a decent filter?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:35:06 AM
Who decides what's a chilul hashem? I'm pretty sure according to the Rambam, the biggest chilul hashem is actually committing a sin.  it's not our self conscious perception of the non-jews perception of of our customs and practices. I don't even believe that the average non-Jewish believer has as hard as a time respecting these papers non women policy as our self conscious modern orthodox have and hence perceive to be a chilul hashem.
Though perhaps in certain instancees it may be a "Chasah Eivah" but that's not a Chilul Hashem as far as I know.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 09:35:59 AM
It's called "Venishmarta Mikol Davar Ra" read it about it, it's in the bible. It's also expounded upon in the Talmud in Avoda Zara.
If they want to be machmir on this, kudos to them. Just like we want to be respected for our opinions and practices whether we are chabad, litvish, modox or whatever, we should respect theirs!
Names of women should also be removed. Maybe we should write a letter to the editor how writing about women causes men to think about women the same as pictures do. That would solve all their problems, just only write about men.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:36:08 AM
Is it important to anyone here how the rest of the world perceives Judaism? Yes I am being serious.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:37:09 AM
Kinda agree. Guess that's why every decent Jew has a decent filter?
No filter will stop everything so the only safe way would be to ban the internet.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 09:37:21 AM
Is it important to anyone here how the rest of the world perceives Judaism? Yes I am being serious.
Yes and no.

No filter will stop everything so the only safe way would be to ban the internet.
Been there done that.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 09:38:53 AM
Is it important to anyone here how the rest of the world perceives Judaism? Yes I am being serious.
I think that by now you have seen often enough that world perception is meaningful but not at the top of the priority list.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:40:00 AM
No filter will stop everything so the only safe way would be to ban the internet.
Have you tried livigent tailored by either TAG, geder or meshimur?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 09:40:11 AM
She doesn't cover her hair. How can they publish a picture of a woman without her hair covered?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:40:38 AM
Is it important to anyone here how the rest of the world perceives Judaism? Yes I am being serious.
To me it is but it's a lost cause.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:40:54 AM
Yes and no.
 Been there done that.
I will address the yes part then. Taking out women like the POTUS makes it look like a fringe religion at best. Not saying that is what it is but the way the rest of the world will perceive it.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 09:41:08 AM
Have you tried livigent tailored by either TAG, geder or meshimur?
Maybe that is what he meant by "ban the internet"?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Menachem613 on June 16, 2016, 09:41:23 AM
Why wasn't this done years ago? Why the recent changes?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:43:19 AM
Have you tried livigent tailored by either TAG, geder or meshimur?
No but it works 100% of the time?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:43:28 AM
Maybe that is what he meant by "ban the internet"?
I can tell you haven't tried it.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 09:44:20 AM
I can tell you haven't tried it.
or that I wasn't serious, or both.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:44:47 AM
No but it works 100% of the time?
If done right they can.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:45:00 AM
To me it is but it's a lost cause.
There are still fair minded individuals out there.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:45:03 AM
No but it works 100% of the time?
I'd say 99.985%, and I'm being conservative.

ETA: better answer

If done right they can.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 09:45:14 AM


Why wasn't this done years ago?

It was.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:46:51 AM
So you're saying a full clothed woman is evil?
I could care less what everyone holds when it doesn't cause issues, but when you start causing international controversy for photoshopping and plane delays then I start caring and want to know how the CH is justified.
Names of women should also be removed. Maybe we should write a letter to the editor how writing about women causes men to think about women the same as pictures do. That would solve all their problems, just only write about men.

Perhaps you have a point, but the Gemoro disagrees with you. "Ra" is referring to sin. The gemoro says one should not even gaze at an ugly women because of "Venishmartem Mikol Davar Ra" It's at the end of the first perek or the begining of the second perek of Avoda Zara - look it up.
Holding up a plane - even though the story is highly exaggerated- is a totally different topic and conversation. You can't compare having a no women picture policy in your communities newspapers to holding up a plane.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:49:10 AM
Who decides what's a chilul hashem? I'm pretty sure according to the Rambam, the biggest chilul hashem is actually committing a sin.  it's not our self conscious perception of the non-jews perception of of our customs and practices. I don't even believe that the average non-Jewish believer has as hard as a time respecting these papers non women policy as our self conscious modern orthodox have and hence perceive to be a chilul hashem.
Though perhaps in certain instancees it may be a "Chasah Eivah" but that's not a Chilul Hashem as far as I know.
Who decides?
Halacha decides, that's who.
If you're doing something (PSing Hillary, fully clothed) out of a picture, that's when you've completely jumped the shark.
Obviously a sin is a C"H. But there's no basis for sin here. It's just being too lazy to draw a line.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:50:12 AM
Perhaps you have a point, but the Gemoro disagrees with you. "Ra" is referring to sin. The gemoro says one should not even gaze at an ugly women because of "Venishmartem Mikol Davar Ra" It's at the end of the first perek or the begining of the second perek of Avoda Zara - look it up.
Holding up a plane - even though the story is highly exaggerated- is a totally different topic and conversation. You can't compare having a no women picture policy in your communities newspapers to holding up a plane.
Who's gazing at a fully dressed woman? And why?
And in my mind the PS incident is just as bad as the planes. And how will a Hillary presidency be covered without more PS incidents?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:50:47 AM
I will address the yes part then. Taking out women like the POTUS makes it look like a fringe religion at best. Not saying that is what it is but the way the rest of the world will perceive it.

So you don't like being looked upon as a fringe religion? Even if that perception maybe wrong? Are you embarrassed about your Judaism? Should we switch around our customs and practices because of our self consciousness of the way the gentiles will perceive us?
Please answer Yes or no.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ephraimh on June 16, 2016, 09:50:49 AM
or that I wasn't serious, or both.
Ok
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:51:47 AM
Who decides?
Halacha decides, that's who.
If you're doing something (PSing Hillary, fully clothed) out of a picture, that's when you've completely jumped the shark.
Obviously a sin is a C"H. But there's no basis for sin here. It's just being too lazy to draw a line.

Halacho decides, exactly! where is this halacho your referring to?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 09:52:02 AM
So you don't like being looked upon as a fringe religion? Even if that perception maybe wrong? Are you embarrassed about your Judaism? Should we switch around our customs and practices because of our self consciousness of the way the gentiles will perceive us?
Please answer Yes or no.
If it's causing a massive C"H without halachic basis? Of course.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:57:39 AM
Who's gazing at a fully dressed woman? And why?
And in my mind the PS incident is just as bad as the planes. And how will a Hillary presidency be covered without more PS incidents?

Read the gemoro, I can see how looking at pictures of women can be interpreted to fall into that category of Venishmartam.
In regards to PS, of course it was wrong, as the newspaper themselves said when they apologized. I don't believe they initially thought some self hating Jew will make the story go viral, and probably no one from their insular community will notice. Will they do it again? I'm sure not. Either way, this PS'ing is a different topic than a no picture policy. If a situation like that comes up again, they'll probably just skip the picture.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 09:58:47 AM
So you don't like being looked upon as a fringe religion? Even if that perception maybe wrong? Are you embarrassed about your Judaism? Should we switch around our customs and practices because of our self consciousness of the way the gentiles will perceive us?
Please answer Yes or no.
Unlike others I do answer questions without the double talk.
No I don't.
Correct
N/A
No

Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: elit on June 16, 2016, 09:58:52 AM



What should be the geder about which females they post?
What should they consider dressed modestly enough?

How's halacha as a geder?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 09:59:15 AM
If it's causing a massive C"H without halachic basis? Of course.

Who decided it's without halachic basis? perhaps they have a more stringent view of Halacho? Perhaps we don't know all the relevant sources to decide for them what's halacho?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 10:00:50 AM

How's halacha as a geder?
Again, what halacho is everyone referring to? Perhaps they are indeed following their posek's interpretation of halacho?!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ygold on June 16, 2016, 10:01:22 AM
Unlike others I do answer questions without the double talk.
No I don't.
Correct
N/A
No

Bingo!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on June 16, 2016, 10:01:41 AM
Dan, you have a huge misconception of what a CH is. You think as long as the world looks at it in a bad way it's a CH, well that is not the case. If it's the right thing then it doesn't make a difference how big of an uproar it causes.
 (I'm not taking sides on the Hillary issues, I just keep seeing stupidity written about CH)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 10:03:47 AM
Bingo!
Just don't complain when the rest of the world looks at it as a bunch of nut cases.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 10:04:01 AM
Dan, you have a huge misconception of what a CH is. You think as long as the world looks at it in a bad way it's a CH, well that is not the case. If it's the right thing then it doesn't make a difference how big of an uproar it causes.
 (I'm not taking sides on the Hillary issues, I just keep seeing stupidity written about CH)
Please show me the halachic source of how PSing out fully clothed women and delaying planes because you were too cheap to buy a 2nd seat is the right thing.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 10:04:57 AM
Unlike others I do answer questions without the double talk.
No I don't.
Correct
N/A
No


Something like
world perception is meaningful but not at the top of the priority list.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Something Fishy on June 16, 2016, 10:05:54 AM
Photoshopping Hillary out of that picture was an undeniably brainless thing to do. If you have a problem showing women, don't publish the picture at all, simple as that.

At the end of the day though, "the Prophet exists to sell itself, you silly girl". Whether it's right or wrong, printing pictures of Hillary will unquestionably tick off a large amount of readers; ergo it won't be published.


Names of women should also be removed.

They already do that in the Yiddish newspapers. She exists only as "פרוי קלינטאן" :-X.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on June 16, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
Please show me the source of how PSing out fully clothed women and delaying planes because you were too cheap to buy a 2nd seat is the right thing.
I said I'm not getting involved in specific cases just addressing your point that you keep saying that if it's gonna cause an uproar that = a CH and that's not the case.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 10:07:11 AM
Please show me the halachic source of how PSing out fully clothed women and delaying planes because you were too cheap to buy a 2nd seat is the right thing.
There are definitely better ways than Photoshop. Just leave out the picture. Note that the paper involved there was NOT a aminstream one.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 10:10:15 AM

How's halacha as a geder?
So its that simple.
Ok, so can you please tell me in a couple sentences the definite halacha as to what is ok and what is not. Please be very specific.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Menachem613 on June 16, 2016, 10:23:18 AM
If you are ok with PS woman out you should have no issue with woman choosing to wear a burqa. Hopefully it catches on as well.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mgarfin on June 16, 2016, 10:24:57 AM
Dan, you have a huge misconception of what a CH is. You think as long as the world looks at it in a bad way it's a CH, well that is not the case. If it's the right thing then it doesn't make a difference how big of an uproar it causes.
 (I'm not taking sides on the Hillary issues, I just keep seeing stupidity written about CH)

+100
It a very common mistake.

In regarding the mesiras nefesh  to go to times square, I read a  Teshuvah from R' Sherlo  permitting shaking a womans hands שלא בדרך חיבה. His bases is, nigah is a machlokes if it is דאורייתא or Derabononand, embarrassing a person is defiantly a דאורייתא . 
לשיטתו נל"ל you can eat chicken in milk served by a person that will get embarrassed if you dont eat it.


Also see this for lots of mamrei chazal http://www.aspaklaria.info/090_TSADI/%D7%A6%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%AA.htm

דתניא לא יהלך אדם אחורי אשה בדרך ואפילו היא אשתו, נזדמנה על הגשר יסלקנה לצדדין, וכל העובר אחורי אשה בנהר אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. תנו רבנן המרצה מעות לאשה מידו לידה או מידה לידו בשביל שיסתכל בה, אפילו דומה למשה רבינו שקיבל תורה מהר סיני לא ינקה מדינה של גיהנם, ועליו הכתוב אומר יד ליד לא ינקה רע, לא ינקה מדינה של גיהנם. אמר רב נחמן מנוח עם הארץ היה, שנאמר ויקם וילך מנוח אחרי אשתו... אמר רב אשי ולמאי דאמר רב נחמן מנוח עם הארץ היה אפילו בי רב נמי לא קרא, דכתיב ותקם רבקה ונערותיה ותרכבנה על הגמלים ותלכנה אחרי האיש, ולא לפני האיש, אמר רבי יוחנן אחרי ארי ולא אחרי אשה, אחרי אשה ולא אחרי עבודת כוכבים... (עירובין יח ב)

ועוצם עיניו מראות ברע, א"ר חייא בר אבא זה שאין מסתכל בנשים בשעה שעומדות על הכביסה, היכי דמי אי דאיכא דרכא אחרינא רשע הוא, אי דליכא דרכא אחריתא אנוס הוא, לעולם דליכא דרכא אחריתא, ואפילו הכי מיבעי ליה למינס נפשיה. בעא מיניה ר' יוחנן מרבי בנאה חלוק של תלמיד חכם כיצד, כל שאין בשרו נראה מתחתיו. (שם נז ב)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mgarfin on June 16, 2016, 10:27:35 AM

They already do that in the Yiddish newspapers. She exists only as "פרוי קלינטאן" :-X.

Hebrew Hamodia too.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 10:28:29 AM
So its that simple.
Ok, so can you please tell me in a couple sentences the definite halacha as to what is ok and what is not. Please be very specific.
Until you have clear guidelines of the definite halacha what should your rule be as to what you willl publish?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 10:31:38 AM
+100
It a very common mistake.

In regarding the mesiras nefesh  to go to times square, I read a  Teshuvah from R' Sherlo  permitting shaking a womans hands שלא בדרך חיבה. His bases is, nigah is a machlokes if it is דאורייתא or Derabononand, embarrassing a person is defiantly a דאורייתא . 
לשיטתו נל"ל you can eat chicken in milk served by a person that will get embarrassed if you dont eat it.


Also see this for lots of mamrei chazal http://www.aspaklaria.info/090_TSADI/%D7%A6%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%AA.htm

דתניא לא יהלך אדם אחורי אשה בדרך ואפילו היא אשתו, נזדמנה על הגשר יסלקנה לצדדין, וכל העובר אחורי אשה בנהר אין לו חלק לעולם הבא. תנו רבנן המרצה מעות לאשה מידו לידה או מידה לידו בשביל שיסתכל בה, אפילו דומה למשה רבינו שקיבל תורה מהר סיני לא ינקה מדינה של גיהנם, ועליו הכתוב אומר יד ליד לא ינקה רע, לא ינקה מדינה של גיהנם. אמר רב נחמן מנוח עם הארץ היה, שנאמר ויקם וילך מנוח אחרי אשתו... אמר רב אשי ולמאי דאמר רב נחמן מנוח עם הארץ היה אפילו בי רב נמי לא קרא, דכתיב ותקם רבקה ונערותיה ותרכבנה על הגמלים ותלכנה אחרי האיש, ולא לפני האיש, אמר רבי יוחנן אחרי ארי ולא אחרי אשה, אחרי אשה ולא אחרי עבודת כוכבים... (עירובין יח ב)

ועוצם עיניו מראות ברע, א"ר חייא בר אבא זה שאין מסתכל בנשים בשעה שעומדות על הכביסה, היכי דמי אי דאיכא דרכא אחרינא רשע הוא, אי דליכא דרכא אחריתא אנוס הוא, לעולם דליכא דרכא אחריתא, ואפילו הכי מיבעי ליה למינס נפשיה. בעא מיניה ר' יוחנן מרבי בנאה חלוק של תלמיד חכם כיצד, כל שאין בשרו נראה מתחתיו. (שם נז ב)
Is embarrassing a goy dioraysa?

Time to take this thread OT ;)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 10:36:29 AM
I said I'm not getting involved in specific cases just addressing your point that you keep saying that if it's gonna cause an uproar that = a CH and that's not the case.
And my point is that if there's halachic basis, fine. No argument.
But without basis then PS and plane delays does fall into CH.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Emkay on June 16, 2016, 10:40:20 AM
Until you have clear guidelines of the definite halacha what should your rule be as to what you willl publish?
With that clientele? No ladies. Just like they do.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: grodnoking on June 16, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
I'm sure that whoever runs the some of these newspapers jave a ruv that he asks questions to.


And we need a popcorn emoji.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: stbaum on June 16, 2016, 10:41:55 AM
Photoshopping Hillary out of that picture was an undeniably brainless thing to do. If you have a problem showing women, don't publish the picture at all, simple as that.

At the end of the day though, "the Prophet exists to sell itself, you silly girl". Whether it's right or wrong, printing pictures of Hillary will unquestionably tick off a large amount of readers; ergo it won't be published.


They already do that in the Yiddish newspapers. She exists only as "פרוי קלינטאן" :-X.

i have no stance on the issue. i just love that you quoted HP  ;D
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mgarfin on June 16, 2016, 10:44:26 AM
Is embarrassing a goy dioraysa?

Time to take this thread OT ;)

He learned from יהודה ותמר
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 10:53:05 AM
With that clientele? No ladies. Just like they do.
There you have it
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 10:56:08 AM
He learned from יהודה ותמר

Sounds very weak to me. I'm no expert but I don't think we rule of what's a halacha dioraysa in regards to embarrassing  goyim based on that story. And unless he has some source other than that, which says that the we have a biblical prohibition from embarrassing goyim he definitely has a flawed argument.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 10:56:51 AM
Dan, with all due respect you lack knowledge in halacha. Tznius is a halachic topic not a CH topic. Yes there are halachos regarding looking at (even!!) pictures of woman. The fact that you are not aware of them does not change them. The fact that certain people photoshopped instead of cutting it out does not change the halacha. Certain things are assur.
As a lubavitcher it's easy for you to pull out "mivtzoim" as a blanket rule that everything is muttar, those that actually do mivtzoim can attest as to how bad it is. They only fo it because they say the lubavitcher rebbe said he  took responsibility.
Regarding pictures there is a back and forth between rav gavriel tzinner and the Lubavitcher rebbe.
The rebbe allowed:
1) black and white
2) photo
3) of the Rebbitzin ,
3) whom nobody really knew
Still it is מדת חסידות להחמיר however in this case we could print it,
4) because it can add to והחי יתן אל לבו
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 10:59:45 AM
Dan, with all due respect you lack knowledge in halacha. Tznius is a halachic topic not a CH topic. Yes there are halachos regarding looking at (even!!) pictures of woman. The fact that you are not aware of them does not change them. The fact that certain people photoshopped instead of cutting it out does not change the halacha. Certain things are assur.
As a lubavitcher it's easy for you to pull out "mivtzoim" as a blanket rule that everything is muttar, those that actually do mivtzoim can attest as to how bad it is. They only fo it because they say the lubavitcher rebbe said he  took responsibility.
Regarding pictures there is a back and forth between rav gavriel tzinner and the Lubavitcher rebbe.
The rebbe allowed:
1) black and white
2) photo
3) of the Rebbitzin ,
3) whom nobody really knew
Still it is מדת חסידות להחמיר however in this case we could print it,
4) because it can add to והחי יתן אל לבו
And that's why the beis din of CH came out with a psak that COL is assur due to pics of women?

Oh wait they didn't do that? Maybe what's halacha and what's minhag are different.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 11:04:14 AM
And that's why the beis din of CH came out with a psak that COL is assur due to pics of women?

Oh wait they didn't do that? Maybe what's halacha and what's minhag are different.
1. There is a letter signed by chabad Rabbonim in EY that it is assur
2. I quoted halacha. Same halacha as cholov akum and beard. But in chabad you pick and choose?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on June 16, 2016, 11:05:57 AM
1. There is a letter signed by chabad Rabbonim in EY that it is assur
2. I quoted halacha. Same halacha as cholov akum and beard. But in chabad you pick and choose?
1. And why didn't the beis din ch write one?
2. Not everything is so simple. I didn't see a quote from halacha though fwiw.

Why do the vast majority of lubavitchers visit COL are you accusing them all of choosing to not be chabad and breaking halacha?

ETA:
those that actually do mivtzoim can attest as to how bad it is.
I'm not sure why you worded it as those that actually do mivtzoim it sounds like you are talking down to someone, as if they never did mivtzoim... I personally never found it so "bad".
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 11:13:44 AM
Dan, you have a huge misconception of what a CH is. You think as long as the world looks at it in a bad way it's a CH, well that is not the case. If it's the right thing then it doesn't make a difference how big of an uproar it causes.
 (I'm not taking sides on the Hillary issues, I just keep seeing stupidity written about CH)

I said I'm not getting involved in specific cases just addressing your point that you keep saying that if it's gonna cause an uproar that = a CH and that's not the case.

-.5

Taken from OU.org:

The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didn’t pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). That’s not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, “That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?


As was mentioned by Zale in the ethical thread:

For some reason the more yeshivish people I've discussed CH with always leave that part out, and try to assert that CH is either solely for Jews, or only regarding violating halacha.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on June 16, 2016, 11:17:44 AM
I'm sure that whoever runs the some of these newspapers have a ruv that he asks questions to.
Most (if not all) heimishe magazines/papers have
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 11:20:07 AM
-.5
Do you realize what a perversion of that quote from OU this is? Just curious.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
1. And why didn't the beis din ch write one?
2. Not everything is so simple. I didn't see a quote from halacha though fwiw.

Why do the vast majority of lubavitchers visit COL are you accusing them all of choosing to not be chabad and breaking halacha?

ETA:  I'm not sure why you worded it as those that actually do mivtzoim it sounds like you are talking down to someone, as if they never did mivtzoim... I personally never found it so "bad".
1.See photo of beis din of ch point #5
2. The discussion with rav tzinner was regarding even haezer siman 21
3. The latter (many people drink cholov akum and shave)
4. Reality. ..
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: gozalim on June 16, 2016, 11:27:22 AM
If you wouldn't go into Manhatten for of parnassa, you are welcome to avoid going there for mivtzoim.
For business all of a sudden ליכא דרכא אחרינא? We consider our brothers' spiritual welfare as important as your own personal financial welfare
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 11:30:35 AM
If you wouldn't go into Manhatten for of parnassa, you are welcome to avoid going there for mivtzoim.
For business all of a sudden ליכא דרכא אחרינא? We consider our brothers' spiritual welfare as important as your own personal financial welfare
There's a bit of a difference between going straight to you office and standing in middle of Times Square, from a practical tznius level.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 11:43:50 AM
Do you realize what a perversion of that quote from OU this is? Just curious.

Not at all. Enlighten me, please.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 11:52:09 AM
Not at all. Enlighten me, please.
The cited gemarah is saying that for one to conduct himself below the religious level he is currently holding on, even if not required by halacha, would be a CH. You are twisting that to mean that for one to conduct themselves on too stringent a level, that the world considers not normal, would be a CH.

If you would've been around in R' Yochanan's times, you would've been writing on the Internet about the CH this fanatic is causing by being so unaware of his surroundings and cut off from the normal world that he can't walk ten feet without slipping into his alternate reality and without his ridiculous prayer shawl and black boxes. You would consider him to be the ultimate disgrace to Judaism. That's why you're not in charge of deciding for G-d what a CH is.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 11:55:28 AM
The cited gemarah is saying that for one to conduct himself below the religious level he is currently holding on, even if not required by halacha, would be a CH. You are twisting that to mean that for one to conduct themselves on too stringent a level, that the world considers not normal, would be a CH.

If you would've been around in R' Yochanan's times, you would've been writing on the Internet about the CH this fanatic is causing by being so unaware of his surroundings and cut off from the normal world that he can't walk ten feet without slipping into his alternate reality and without his ridiculous prayer shawl and black boxes. You would consider him to be the ultimate disgrace to Judaism. That's why you're not in charge of deciding for G-d what a CH is.

Huh? It has nothing to do with level of religious observance. The example provided is not paying your non-Jewish workers on time, which is deemed to be a CH because it's perceived to be beneath a Jew to do.

Same thing with removing all women from all public life in certain circles. Not sure how it's different.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 12:01:28 PM


Huh? It has nothing to do with level of religious observance. The example provided is not paying your non-Jewish workers on time, which is deemed to be a CH because it's perceived to be beneath a Jew to do.

Same thing with removing all women from all public life in certain circles. Not sure how it's different.

I guess paying workers on time has nothing to do with Judaism, and G-d couldn't really care less, as long as there is no CH. There must be no commandment about paying workers on time. Thanks for the correction. Give me a minute to edit my outdated copy of the bible.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 12:15:00 PM

I guess paying workers on time has nothing to do with Judaism, and G-d couldn't really care less, as long as there is no CH. There must be no commandment about paying workers on time. Thanks for the correction. Give me a minute to edit my outdated copy of the bible.

Correct. The times for paying Jewish vs. Non-Jewish workers is different according to the S'dei Chemed (as opposed to the Rambam). Not sure why you're pretending it's so cut and dry.

There's a reason the case used is withholding a NON-JEWISH employee's wages. Even if not assur, it's still a CH.  If publishing pictures of females is not assur, it can still certainly be a CH.

My point was only to respond to Super Speed who intimated that CH is very narrow and doesn't apply here.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 12:17:39 PM
If publishing pictures of females is not assur, it can still certainly be a CH.
Better you say the logical outcome of your cited gemara than I do.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 12:21:03 PM
The cited gemarah is saying that for one to conduct himself below the religious level he is currently holding on, even if not required by halacha, would be a CH. You are twisting that to mean that for one to conduct themselves on too stringent a level, that the world considers not normal, would be a CH.

If you would've been around in R' Yochanan's times, you would've been writing on the Internet about the CH this fanatic is causing by being so unaware of his surroundings and cut off from the normal world that he can't walk ten feet without slipping into his alternate reality and without his ridiculous prayer shawl and black boxes. You would consider him to be the ultimate disgrace to Judaism. That's why you're not in charge of deciding for G-d what a CH is.
+1000
Just because it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean hashem is uncomfortable
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Yammer on June 16, 2016, 12:25:09 PM
To summarize....😉

1) Papers that do not put pictures of women...had there not have been the Clinton Photoshop incident, (CH) there seems to be nobody here having a problem ( free country, right?). They haven't been putting pictures of women  for over 50 years, therefore if there was one now doesn't mean that it's a terrible thing. They simply must learn how to adapt to new digital age where these things reach the mainstream press.

2) Chabad- if their Rebbe told them to do and took full responsibility ( which he did) it's not a question whether it's allowed or not. All the issues boil down to, do you question his integrity? ( you know what I mean...don't troll me for it...😱)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 12:30:38 PM
Better you say the logical outcome of your cited gemara than I do.

I don't recall if the Gemara specifies whether the butcher was Jewish or not, so I can't say until I go back over the sugya, but I still maintain that this can be a CH.

+1000
Just because it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean hashem is uncomfortable

My comfort means nothing.  I'm not inherently uncomfortable with what they do.  I only have a problem since it's a CH, IMO.

And to touch on that point by DS, leading whatever life you choose is your business; level of stringency does not make anything a CH, until it reflects badly on Jews.  And of course I don't get to make a determination of what is or is not a CH, but it's not all pre-determined either.  As the OU said:
Quote
The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, “That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?”
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 12:44:51 PM

Quote
The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, “That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?”
Question: if torah /halacha mandates or even approves something, should we care that people say "“That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?”
You can start saying that about shaking woman's hands, taking a mincha break, not joining your co-workers for lunch. vedal .
Halacha is halacha.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 12:48:25 PM
My comfort means nothing.  I'm not inherently uncomfortable with what they do.  I only have a problem since it's a CH, IMO.
A chilul hashem is based on what hashem considers a chilul. Hence :
+1000
Just because it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean hashem is uncomfortable
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 12:52:47 PM
Question: if torah /halacha mandates or even approves something, should we care that people say "“That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?”
You can start saying that about shaking woman's hands, taking a mincha break, not joining your co-workers for lunch. vedal .
Halacha is halacha.

Yes, you should care, but obviously a clear assei/lo sasaei will override it.

However, when something is being implemented as a geder or out of a personal decision to be more stringent then it's given more weight.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Brian93 on June 16, 2016, 12:54:32 PM
Question: if torah /halacha mandates or even approves something, should we care that people say "“That’s how Jews act?” or “That’s how religious people act?”
You can start saying that about shaking woman's hands, taking a mincha break, not joining your co-workers for lunch. vedal .
Halacha is halacha.
Even in הלכה there is the idea of דרכי שלום though
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
A chilul hashem is based on what hashem considers a chilul. Hence :

Right, and anything that makes people say "look at those Jews" Hashem considers a chillul.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Centro on June 16, 2016, 12:58:45 PM
Right, and anything that makes people say "look at those Jews" Hashem considers a chillul.
Wrong wrong and wrong!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 01:01:51 PM
Wrong wrong and wrong!

Welcome to the conversation.  Now go read through the past few pages, learn the sugya, than report back.  Thanks!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: tafastamerubaLOtafasta on June 16, 2016, 01:04:10 PM
Right, and anything that makes people say "look at those Jews" Hashem considers a chillul.
absoulutely incorrect. Halacha dictates that only doing an aveira can be a Chillul Hashem. So if you eat something without making a bracha more likely you are oiver on CH then by not posting a pic of the democratic nominee.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 01:04:26 PM
I don't recall if the Gemara specifies whether the butcher was Jewish or not, so I can't say until I go back over the sugya, but I still maintain that this can be a CH.

I'll do you a favor; look at that gemara. You'll get much better material. There are much better examples there for your cause than not paying the butcher right away.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 01:05:44 PM
Right, and anything that makes people say "look at those Jews" Hashem considers a chillul.
Like those Jews that take off every other week for holidays? Or those Jews that can't shake my wife's hand? Or those Jews that refuse to eat my food?
Wrong wrong and wrong!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Centro on June 16, 2016, 01:07:34 PM
Right, and anything that makes people say "look at those Jews" Hashem considers a chillul.
There's many things that we Jews do that causes goyim to the say "look at those Jews"
One day you might (don't take me literally) cut out portions of the shilchen urich to prevent the "look at those Jews" issue..
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 01:09:51 PM
There's many things that we Jews do that causes goyim to the say "look at those Jews"
One day you might (don't take me literally) cut out portions of the shilchen urich to prevent the "look at those Jews" issue..
That's how reform started
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 01:14:58 PM
absoulutely incorrect. Halacha dictates that only doing an aveira can be a Chillul Hashem.

That is 100% incorrect according to every shita I've ever seen.  You have a source to back that up?

I'll do you a favor; look at that gemara. You'll get much better material. There are much better examples there for your cause than not paying the butcher right away.


Will do.  It's been a while since I hashed this out with AJ before he was banned.

Like those Jews that take off every other week for holidays? Or those Jews that can't shake my wife's hand? Or those Jews that refuse to eat my food?

Did you read my prior response?  We're not discussing a clear lav hear (presumbaly).

@koplonko
@David Smith
@Centro

Was photoshopping HRC out of the war room picture a chillul hashem?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: sharkky on June 16, 2016, 01:16:37 PM
Even according to the shittah that gezel akum is muttar its still considered a chillul hashem. It doesnt matter if it wouldv been muttar w/o chilul hashem


Or this is said by taus akum? Either way, the point is the same
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 01:19:44 PM
Was photoshopping HRC out of the war room picture a chillul hashem?
Yes. They should have not printed it, or cut out/replace it with a different one
It's only a chilul hashem because there were other solutions. You don't like a picture you don't need to print it. But don't go around photoshopping. That doesn't mean they wrong about the idea of not having woman pictures
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 01:30:29 PM



@koplonko
@David Smith
@Centro

Was photoshopping HRC out of the war room picture a chillul hashem?

I wouldn't have done it. Taking her out of a picture is worse than publishing no picture. It looked like they were pretending she didn't exist and wasn't involved.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 01:35:05 PM
[quote name="Aaaron" post=1494573 timestamp=1466097298]
Will do.  It's been a while since I hashed this out with AJ before he was banned.
[/quote]
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/8ada1c1a6a10eae3de08f817ef18d94f.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on June 16, 2016, 01:37:46 PM

I wouldn't have done it. Taking her out of a picture is worse than publishing no picture. It looked like they were pretending she didn't exist and wasn't involved.

That's not answering the question...

(Thanks for the daf, the first copy was fine.)

So now that I'm refreshed, can we all agree that something does not need to be assur for it to be a chillul HaShem?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: chaimmayer on June 16, 2016, 01:53:00 PM
Iirc there was a bezel issue also because the White House released the pic for any one to use but they made a תנאי that it couldn't be doctored.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 16, 2016, 01:58:24 PM
Iirc there was a bezel issue also because the White House released the pic for any one to use but they made a תנאי that it couldn't be doctored.
Correct
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 16, 2016, 02:16:19 PM
She doesn't cover her hair. How can they publish a picture of a woman without her hair covered?
Sear akum not ervah iirc
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 02:50:57 PM

I wouldn't have done it. Taking her out of a picture is worse than publishing no picture. It looked like they were pretending she didn't exist and wasn't involved.
Do you understand that it looks that way in both cases?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 02:55:46 PM
Do you understand that it looks that way in both cases?
That writing an article about her speech without putting in a picture of her speaking is denying her involvement in the speech?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 03:01:32 PM
That writing an article about her speech without putting in a picture of her speaking is denying her involvement in the speech?
I am talking about how non-Jews would view PS her out or not ever posting a picture of her if she becomes POTUS. The view will be religious quacks. You can decide if this would be a CH as I am lost based on the 100% opposite comments in this thread.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 16, 2016, 03:11:49 PM
I am talking about how non-Jews would view PS her out or not ever posting a picture of her if she becomes POTUS. The view will be religious quacks. You can decide if this would be a CH as I am lost based on the 100% opposite comments in this thread.
Yeah, yeah, I know. Not putting in pictures of her would be the ultimate rejection that the progress of electing a female president would represent.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 03:18:22 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know. Not putting in pictures of her would be the ultimate rejection that the progress of electing a female president would represent.
I guess you truly don't understand.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MosheD on June 16, 2016, 03:21:15 PM
Not reading through this whole thread but I believe some papers (FJJ for one) have made an exception for Hillary.
I think that's smart
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Sport on June 16, 2016, 03:23:23 PM
I am talking about how non-Jews would view PS her out or not ever posting a picture of her if she becomes POTUS. The view will be religious quacks. You can decide if this would be a CH as I am lost based on the 100% opposite comments in this thread.
The diffrence is one would clearly be intentional and represent a policy while the other can be for any number of reasons and will not draw attention.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Centro on June 16, 2016, 03:25:05 PM
Sear akum not ervah iirc
It's not considered טפח באשה but it's still the same as אף באצבע קטנה של אישה.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 16, 2016, 03:28:28 PM
It's not considered טפח באשה but it's still the same as אף באצבע קטנה של אישה.
See MB 12

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/5c759cb538bc210127fabb5b547c793f.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 03:29:38 PM
I am talking about how non-Jews would view PS her out or not ever posting a picture of her if she becomes POTUS. The view will be religious quacks. You can decide if this would be a CH as I am lost based on the 100% opposite comments in this thread.
How many non-Jews would know or realize that her picture was never published by any specific newspaper? Can you list newspapers which haven't published it and were not mentioned as such on DDF? With an edited picture all it takes is one person to post it online and it is all over the place.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 03:30:27 PM
See MB 12

So he leaves it as tzarich iyun
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Centro on June 16, 2016, 03:52:55 PM
See MB 12

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160616/5c759cb538bc210127fabb5b547c793f.jpg)
Correct, I meant to say that it's at least as אצבה קטנה.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 16, 2016, 04:46:07 PM
Correct, I meant to say that it's at least as אצבה קטנה.
That is referring to looking for pleasure
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: pixi on June 16, 2016, 05:12:50 PM
Sounds like #1 is having mesiras nefesh to help fulfill one of the Rambam's 13 principles of Judaism, while #2 is being extreme well beyond the limits of halacha and is aiding a chillul hashem.

I don't call a מצוה הבאה בעבירה mesiras nefesh!
To look on a half naked woman is a simple aveirah it doesn't matter why you are doing it!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 05:19:42 PM
How many non-Jews would know or realize that her picture was never published by any specific newspaper? Can you list newspapers which haven't published it and were not mentioned as such on DDF? With an edited picture all it takes is one person to post it online and it is all over the place.
This is correct. I expect if she becomes president it will be known to a lot more.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 05:19:50 PM
I don't call a מצוה הבאה בעבירה mesiras nefesh!
To look on half naked woman is a simple aveirah it doesn't matter why you are doing it!
So you also stay inside your home all summer? Who is looking at these women?

OT, but Aharon HaKohen had true mesiras when he didn't stop the yidden from the cheit ha'egel. Call it מצוה הבאה בעבירה if you want, but it had a higher purpose.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 05:23:36 PM
This is correct. I expect if she becomes president it will be known to a lot more.
Maybe, but much less so. There is no smokingt gun. Which article NEEDS to have a picture?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 05:27:44 PM
Maybe, but much less so. There is no smokingt gun. Which article NEEDS to have a picture?
So your point is when then PS the picture it is going to bring more attention to it? My point is if it becomes public on a wide scale that they won't publish her picture because she is a women the perception is going to be a bunch of nut cases. Don't shoot the messenger.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: pixi on June 16, 2016, 05:31:57 PM
So you also stay inside your home all summer?
We have no other choice, we have to try our best not to look.

  Who is looking at these women?
The people putting tefilin on for those people

OT, but Aharon HaKohen had true mesiras when he didn't stop the yidden from the cheit ha'egel. Call it מצוה הבאה בעבירה if you want, but it had a higher purpose.
This is a subject we cannot talk about we have no idea what happened there, this is something we cannot understand.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dan on June 16, 2016, 05:41:23 PM
The people putting tefilin on for those people
A truly vile thing to say. Shame on you.

This is a subject we cannot talk about we have no idea what happened there, this is something we cannot understand.
There are plenty of beautiful explanations given by various meforshim. The mesiras nefesh explanation is very compelling.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on June 16, 2016, 06:05:07 PM
So your point is when then PS the picture it is going to bring more attention to it? My point is if it becomes public on a wide scale that they won't publish her picture because she is a women the perception is going to be a bunch of nut cases. Don't shoot the messenger.
Exactly! It is much less likely for it to become public on any scale at all. Even the PSed pic took years to become public IIRC. Who is shooting?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: pixi on June 16, 2016, 06:05:19 PM
Who is looking at these women?
The people putting tefilin on for those people
A truly vile thing to say. Shame on you.
I didn't say putting on tefilin for other Jews is a bad thing its actually a great thing and I admire people doing it, but on the other-side you gotta be careful how you are doing it.


So there's 2 people,

1. Who'd put his soul in danger by going to Times Square (or any other populated area) where there's lots of half clothed women to put on tfilin for non observant people.

2. Who wouldn't look at a photo of even clothed women (not discussing if its prohibited by halucha) just for God's sake.

So whom would you call nut case???
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 06:16:33 PM
Maybe they should just PS her with the proper clothing?  :)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mgarfin on June 16, 2016, 06:28:42 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/emails-clinton-upset-about-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture/article/2579430

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/01/01/new-emails-reveal-hillary-clinton-anger-after-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture-by-yiddish-newspaper/
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 06:31:20 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/emails-clinton-upset-about-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture/article/2579430

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/01/01/new-emails-reveal-hillary-clinton-anger-after-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture-by-yiddish-newspaper/
I am sure she will be fine if she visits Israel and there are no pictures of the visit.  :)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: sky121 on June 16, 2016, 06:31:53 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/emails-clinton-upset-about-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture/article/2579430

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/01/01/new-emails-reveal-hillary-clinton-anger-after-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture-by-yiddish-newspaper/



Do you blame her?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 16, 2016, 06:34:53 PM
Do you blame her?
Of course I blame her. Why is she upset that she is being treated like a second class citizen? Doesn't she know she is a woman?  :)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: tov hashem on June 16, 2016, 09:54:23 PM
Except the Halacha part, Looking at trump causes me more הרהורים then looking on mrs Clinton.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Brian93 on June 16, 2016, 10:15:40 PM
Except the Halacha part, Looking at trump causes me more הרהורים then looking on mrs Clinton.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: beeweegee on June 16, 2016, 11:07:50 PM
So your point is when then PS the picture it is going to bring more attention to it? My point is if it becomes public on a wide scale that they won't publish her picture because she is a women the perception is going to be a bunch of nut cases. Don't shoot the messenger.
I wholeheartedly agree that PSing a picture is wrong (and against the law/terms, for that matter). However, if a publication believes that for religious purposes (whether I agree that it dictated by the Jewish religion or not is entirely not my point), it would be appropriate to leave out all pictures of women from their newspaper which may potentially cause some people to perceive the editors of the newspaper (or even the entire Jewish religion) as "a bunch of nut cases", then so be it. They need to do what they feel is "right", and as long as it is not harming others, why let others' perception of you cause you to go against what you believe is the right thing to do?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 12:18:53 AM
I wholeheartedly agree that PSing a picture is wrong (and against the law/terms, for that matter). However, if a publication believes that for religious purposes (whether I agree that it dictated by the Jewish religion or not is entirely not my point), it would be appropriate to leave out all pictures of women from their newspaper which may potentially cause some people to perceive the editors of the newspaper (or even the entire Jewish religion) as "a bunch of nut cases", then so be it. They need to do what they feel is "right", and as long as it is not harming others, why let others' perception of you cause you to go against what you believe is the right thing to do?
This is why I asked early on if it matters what others think of ones religion.   
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on June 17, 2016, 01:35:17 AM
This is why I asked early on if it matters what others think of ones religion.
No it doesn't as long as we're doing the right thing.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on June 17, 2016, 01:35:44 AM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/emails-clinton-upset-about-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture/article/2579430

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/01/01/new-emails-reveal-hillary-clinton-anger-after-being-photoshopped-out-of-white-house-picture-by-yiddish-newspaper/
Interesting how those emails we have access to
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
No it doesn't as long as we're doing the right thing.
Unless I am not understanding this thread no one every agrees on what the right thing is.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 17, 2016, 03:20:25 AM
Unless I am not understanding this thread no one every agrees on what the right thing is.
Haven't we established this year's ago?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on June 17, 2016, 03:22:13 AM
Of course I blame her. Why is she upset that she is being treated like a second class citizen? Doesn't she know she is a woman?  :)
Considering that she takes & has been taking big money from people & nations that treat women like slaves, and without any protest, a minor PS shouldn't really bother her. :)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 03:22:32 AM
Haven't we established this year's ago?
Not trying to be funny but if you can't keep your own house in order how do except others to?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 03:23:35 AM
Considering that she takes & has been taking big money from people & nations that treat women like slaves, and without any protest, a minor PS shouldn't really bother her. :)
She believes in do as I say not as I do.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on June 17, 2016, 03:25:40 AM
Not trying to be funny but if you can't keep your own house in order how do except others to?
There are catholic and protestant Christians. Should I respect neither, being as they don't agree what God and Jesus want from them?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on June 17, 2016, 03:32:06 AM
She believes in do as Sid says not as I do.
FTFY
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 03:32:37 AM
There are catholic and protestant Christians. Should I respect neither, being as they don't agree what God and Jesus want from them?
Why do you want to insult Catholics like that?  :P
They are basically different religions.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Freddie on June 17, 2016, 04:06:45 AM
Haven't we established this year's ago?
Years? Your join date is exactly one year ago. Reading up on archives, were you? Or do we have a little k'ben shivim shana with a chaf hadimyon going on?  ;)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 06:11:37 AM
Many read for a long time before joining.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on June 17, 2016, 09:44:38 AM
And some people get a new username every year or so!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 17, 2016, 09:45:19 AM
And some people get a new username every year or so!
Should be banned
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 09:56:39 AM
Should be banned
+4
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 17, 2016, 10:04:11 AM


So there's 2 people,

1. Who'd put his soul in danger by going to Times Square (or any other populated area) where there's lots of half clothed women to put on tfilin for non observant people.

2. Who wouldn't look at a photo of even clothed women (not discussing if its prohibited by halucha) just for God's sake.

So whom would you call nut case???

What if it's both the same person. Many people I know do both.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: beeweegee on June 17, 2016, 10:05:56 AM
This is why I asked early on if it matters what others think of ones religion.
Simply put, it depends (which is why you are seeing such conflicting reports here) and obviously it brings up the whole CH conversation. If you are doing something proper as dictated by your religion (again, according to your definition of proper - others may disagree), then what others think should generally not play a role in deciding your actions. If it is not proper, or it IS proper but could be done in a more tasteful or less in-your-face way while still remaining proper, than actions should definitely be taken to avoid the public's negative perceptions.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Ydad on June 17, 2016, 10:06:53 AM
+4
Who is first to go?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 17, 2016, 10:13:33 AM
Dan, with all due respect you lack knowledge in halacha. Tznius is a halachic topic not a CH topic. Yes there are halachos regarding looking at (even!!) pictures of woman. The fact that you are not aware of them does not change them. The fact that certain people photoshopped instead of cutting it out does not change the halacha. Certain things are assur.
As a lubavitcher it's easy for you to pull out "mivtzoim" as a blanket rule that everything is muttar, those that actually do mivtzoim can attest as to how bad it is. They only fo it because they say the lubavitcher rebbe said he  took responsibility.
Regarding pictures there is a back and forth between rav gavriel tzinner and the Lubavitcher rebbe.
The rebbe allowed:
1) black and white
2) photo
3) of the Rebbitzin ,
3) whom nobody really knew
Still it is מדת חסידות להחמיר however in this case we could print it,
4) because it can add to והחי יתן אל לבו
+100
Sounds like a fair argument. I don't think any Lubavitcher's would want to argue with the Rebbe. I have seen this conversation although I don't recall exactly where. I'll try upload later.


And that's why the beis din of CH came out with a psak that COL is assur due to pics of women?

Oh wait they didn't do that? Maybe what's halacha and what's minhag are different.

Don't get me started on COLlive. They're a bunch of individuals who have no regard for respect of Rabonim, Jewish law and lack many other basic Jewish values.

I would say that the reason why the Rabonim of CH didn't put out a letter against it is because they wouldn't listen anyway but apparently they did sign a letter as koplonko showed us (surprisingly both Rabonim on the same letter).

Bottom line: If a rav gives a psak, wether it's based on halacha, minhag or hashkafa, should have an equal bearing and we can encourage Chareidi news outlets to follow even if some people will think we're crazy.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 17, 2016, 10:20:56 AM


Why do the vast majority of lubavitchers visit COL are you accusing them all of choosing to not be chabad and breaking halacha?

Give me a break. The short and blunt answer to that question is Yes.

Do you think if you write a letter to the Rebbe or any ultra Orthodox Rabbi asking if you may go to Fox news or CNN just to read up and be informed on the news they would say it's fine? They'd tell you it's not allowed for a number of reasons. Think about it.

Unfortunately the internet causes us to think backwards and our instincts may be drawn to read websites that spew hate, disregard for our Rabonim, and postings that aren't in the spirit of the Torah because we go for editing things.

The fact that many Lubavitcher's visit COLlive (I personally try to stay far away and generally only go there if someone sends me a link to a discussing article) doesn't make it Mutar and wouldn't make it right.

/End rant.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on June 17, 2016, 10:37:28 AM
Simply put, it depends (which is why you are seeing such conflicting reports here) and obviously it brings up the whole CH conversation.
Not going to get involved in that one especial on a Friday.  :)
Google is pretty on what constitutes a CH but they are probably over simplifying it. 
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 17, 2016, 10:48:34 AM


I don't think any Lubavitcher's would want to argue with the Rebbe. I have seen this conversation although I don't recall exactly where. I'll try upload later.

I'll let someone else type out the handwriting when they have time.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mgarfin on June 17, 2016, 11:34:29 AM
Can someone explain who's writing to who?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on June 17, 2016, 11:46:11 AM
Can someone explain who's writing to who?
The typed letter was previously in this thread ascribed to Rabbi Gavriel Zinner written to the Lubavitcher Rebbe in response to a pamphlet that was published shortly after the Rebbetzin's passing with a B&W picture of the Rebbetzin. The handwriting is the Rebbe's response.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: chaimmayer on June 17, 2016, 02:38:52 PM
What about that psak against col
Does anyone abide by it?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: koplonko on June 17, 2016, 07:29:30 PM
What about that psak against col
Does anyone abide by it?
Chabadinfo.com
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on July 12, 2016, 11:09:11 AM
Relevant:

(https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/s960x960/13641037_10101052116651645_9001179883498097644_o.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on July 12, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
I don't see her.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
Like Clint Eastwood's empty chair.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dr Moose on July 12, 2016, 01:44:41 PM
I don't see her.
That's because she's larger than life.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: skyguy918 on July 12, 2016, 02:12:14 PM
Lol that I found out about this through the above picture.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jj1000 on July 28, 2016, 12:00:55 PM
First 90 seconds:

Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: davidmal on July 28, 2016, 12:02:07 PM
VOTE None of the above!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on July 29, 2016, 02:34:19 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/seattle-times-issues-apology-for-front-page-bill-clinton-photograph/
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Chuck2 on August 04, 2016, 08:51:30 PM
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13886481_1731817863733661_2760715494190210715_n.jpg?oh=1b433b0c84315ee49981ee2a1d3254e1&oe=58251461)
It says that we have to vote for trump BECAUSE if hillary wins and the people with "those" phones (aka smartphones) wanna watch the president speak.....she's a woman OMG rachmuna litslon. Hillary the sex symbol is gonna turn everyone on.... ;D
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: good sam on August 05, 2016, 12:24:12 AM
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13886481_1731817863733661_2760715494190210715_n.jpg?oh=1b433b0c84315ee49981ee2a1d3254e1&oe=58251461)
It says that we have to vote for trump BECAUSE if hillary wins and the people with "those" phones (aka smartphones) wanna watch the president speak.....she's a woman OMG rachmuna litslon. Hillary the sex symbol is gonna turn everyone on.... ;D
Notwithstanding that man's opinion, the need for entitlements will prevail. Their community will be voting D down the line.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: yitrap on August 11, 2016, 09:34:03 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160812/518fef6c4392ad00e5bbc3f859f73367.jpg)
Well she finally made it to the Yated
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on August 11, 2016, 09:38:26 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160812/518fef6c4392ad00e5bbc3f859f73367.jpg)
Well she finally made it to the Yated
Those fingers are quite short. I think that's really Trump. The hair length looks right too...
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 10:13:18 PM
I don't get it, even אצבע קטנה is אסור!!!!  ;D

"כל המסתכל באצבע קטנה של אשה, כאילו מסתכל במקום התורף"
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Super Speed on August 11, 2016, 10:18:12 PM
I don't get it, even אצבע קטנה is אסור!!!!  ;D

"כל המסתכל באצבע קטנה של אשה, כאילו מסתכל במקום התורף"
Key word is Isha...
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 10:23:18 PM
Key word is Isha...
What is she a שד, or a כלבה?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on August 11, 2016, 10:40:10 PM
What is she a שד, or a כלבה?
Even I don't think she is THAT bad.....
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 10:45:15 PM
Even I don't think she is THAT bad.....
You see! That's how bad I think Trump is!  :P ;D
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on August 11, 2016, 10:49:28 PM
You see! That's how bad I think Trump is!  ;D
I know. Who is that a statement on?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 10:50:31 PM
I know. Who is that a statement on?
Trump! :P
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: jungarmtl on August 25, 2016, 11:56:18 AM
http://www.bhol.co.il/107773/%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%A0%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F.html
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Sport on September 22, 2016, 06:35:59 PM
NPR just had a report featuring this question! Except they were talking about the Yated.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: george on September 22, 2016, 06:55:05 PM
NPR just had a report featuring this question! Except they were talking about the Yated.
And what did they say?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Sport on September 22, 2016, 07:15:29 PM
And what did they say?
Was actauly a fairly unbiased report. Yated said they will not post picture. Some other paper said they'll consider making an exception.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: efflpetzel on September 25, 2016, 03:20:59 PM
Anyone notice the way mishpacha magazine handled it in this weeks article, i thought it was smart
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Freddie on September 25, 2016, 03:40:30 PM
Anyone notice the way mishpacha magazine handled it in this weeks article, i thought it was smart

How did they handle it? Post a picture of her robot body double? ::)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: efflpetzel on September 25, 2016, 04:16:07 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/38041225843a485c3be5671febc7e63f.jpg)

I apologize if the picture appears rumpled, someone just dunked the magazine in the toilet
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: David Smith on September 25, 2016, 04:21:49 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/38041225843a485c3be5671febc7e63f.jpg)

I apologize if the picture appears rumpled, someone just dunked the magazine in the toilet
Yeah, I see the stuff from the toilet smeared on it. Unless that's supposed to be our candidates?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on September 25, 2016, 04:22:01 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/38041225843a485c3be5671febc7e63f.jpg)

I apologize if the picture appears rumpled, someone just dunked the magazine in the toilet
Is the picture of her before or after the dunk ? :)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: efflpetzel on September 25, 2016, 04:22:54 PM
Hahaha
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: TimT on September 25, 2016, 04:26:30 PM
Many of the papers already put animated pictures. That should solve everything, no ?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: good sam on September 25, 2016, 06:02:01 PM
I think we can put this thread to bed for now.
#RunningUnopposed
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: sky121 on September 26, 2016, 06:31:10 AM
Many of the papers already put animated pictures. That should solve everything, no ?
I'm guessing it depends how well the animations done.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: good sam on September 26, 2016, 10:30:31 AM
I'm guessing it depends how well the animations done.
The worse the better?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: cholent on September 26, 2016, 12:07:11 PM
The worse the better?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Brian93 on October 10, 2016, 08:55:15 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/6ee5ef51e47f9e5120727c49153a879a.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: MeirS on October 11, 2016, 01:18:56 AM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161011/6ee5ef51e47f9e5120727c49153a879a.jpg)
It's a good thing she was sitting in one spot and didn't move around as much as Trump.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: lechatchileh ariber on October 11, 2016, 02:24:18 AM
It's a good thing she was sitting in one spot and didn't move around as much as Trump.
#parkinsons
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: LoLo on November 03, 2016, 12:19:07 PM
So we know what the mishpacha will do..
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: good sam on November 03, 2016, 12:26:59 PM
So we know what the mishpacha will do..
Warning: Pritzus alert

Post it in a link please!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 04, 2016, 06:45:26 AM
Warning: Pritzus alert

Post it in a link please!
Yeah. Disgusting.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Yammer on November 06, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
http://www.vosizneias.com/253284/2016/11/06/jerusalem-israels-hamodia-blasts-mishpacha-for-cover-shot-depicting-hillary-clinton/

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/f54d0414d1584eed3acb274bde6f3034.jpg)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: efflpetzel on November 06, 2016, 07:30:11 PM
http://www.vosizneias.com/253284/2016/11/06/jerusalem-israels-hamodia-blasts-mishpacha-for-cover-shot-depicting-hillary-clinton/

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/f54d0414d1584eed3acb274bde6f3034.jpg)
What a bunch of idiots the hamodia is
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Aaaron on November 06, 2016, 07:42:33 PM
What a bunch of idiots the hamodia is

+1

We all know what they're thinking, but to put it in writing??  :o
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Avrumi#1 on November 06, 2016, 10:47:56 PM
What a bunch of idiots the hamodia is

This one will be fun.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/482751/heating-up-hamodia-attacks-mishpacha-decision-to-publish-photo-of-hillary-contributing-editor-of-mishpacha-sruli-besser-fires-back.html
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: JTZ on November 06, 2016, 10:58:07 PM
This one will be fun.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/482751/heating-up-hamodia-attacks-mishpacha-decision-to-publish-photo-of-hillary-contributing-editor-of-mishpacha-sruli-besser-fires-back.html
Should have saved it for Friday.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: lubaby on November 06, 2016, 11:00:23 PM
Should have saved it for Friday.
By Friday it might not matter anymore (other then for arguments sake)..
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on November 06, 2016, 11:18:33 PM
Should have saved it for Friday.
This week is one long Friday!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 06, 2016, 11:52:09 PM
This week is one long Friday!
It's been Friday for a year!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 07, 2016, 04:32:36 PM
Just curious, which poskim did mishpacha consult?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: good sam on November 07, 2016, 06:06:07 PM
Just curious, which poskim did mishpacha consult?
I hope not a female posek.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 07, 2016, 11:19:40 PM
I hope not a female posek.
It's not even a joke!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Avrumi#1 on November 08, 2016, 08:21:46 AM
It's not even a joke!

Nah, they used the same poskim that the Jewish Observer, olov hasholom, used. And the Jewish Observer was pretty Chareidi.

Now that we've established who the Mishpacha's poskim were and the precedent that they have, who are Hamodia's poskim that supported their attack? Once we're at it, who is Hamodia's owner? What is his record of being a true chareidi?

We want action!  :P
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: 12HRS on November 09, 2016, 12:50:05 AM
Well this whole thread is about to be irrelevant
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Mordyk on November 09, 2016, 01:15:31 AM
Well this whole thread is about to be irrelevant
and mishpacha will regret their decision!
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mmgfarb on November 09, 2016, 01:38:09 AM
and mishpacha will regret their decision!
Why's that?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Mordyk on November 09, 2016, 01:41:27 AM
Why's that?
hillary on cover controversy
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mmgfarb on November 09, 2016, 01:42:09 AM
hillary on cover controversy
I don't think it'll have any further ramifications.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: shulem92 on November 09, 2016, 01:46:58 AM
Concession speech won't be featured?
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: mmgfarb on November 09, 2016, 01:48:24 AM
Concession speech won't be featured?
At this point they probably don't have to out a picture.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: Dr Moose on November 09, 2016, 02:18:19 AM
Phew. Dodged a bullet there.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2016, 03:09:36 AM
Hamodia rigged the election
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: justaregularguy on November 09, 2016, 03:22:11 AM
Hamodia rigged the election
very interesting point... :o
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: ckmk47 on November 09, 2016, 03:53:16 AM
Concession speech won't be featured?
She didn't make one.  So far, no problem.
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2016, 09:49:17 AM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/9a365059a2f986f10ad58c6de158dda7.png)
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: cholent on November 09, 2016, 10:07:53 AM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/9a365059a2f986f10ad58c6de158dda7.png)

What was the pic? Taken down on twitter
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2016, 10:11:00 AM
dunno
Title: Re: what will Hamodia do if Hillary becomes President?
Post by: shulem92 on November 09, 2016, 10:23:20 AM
What was the pic? Taken down on twitter
possibly this? (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=5531.msg1589810.msg#1589810)