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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: shmueli2007 on July 14, 2016, 03:37:27 PM

Title: Silent Killer
Post by: shmueli2007 on July 14, 2016, 03:37:27 PM
http://forward.com/news/345095/brooklyn-man-hangs-self-26th-new-york-orthodox-suicide-in-year/ (http://forward.com/news/345095/brooklyn-man-hangs-self-26th-new-york-orthodox-suicide-in-year/) We have to start this serious discussion in our community. #BDE
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on July 15, 2016, 12:30:59 PM
+1
This really has to be addressed. Life comes before all else. This is insane.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: good sam on July 15, 2016, 12:46:08 PM
Was this a case of abuse?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ilherman on July 15, 2016, 12:50:40 PM
 :o

Non sense.  As suicide only exists in the orthodox circles.

Umm,  "activist" boory deutch.  Aha....

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 15, 2016, 01:03:40 PM
:o

Non sense.  As suicide only exists in the orthodox circles.

Umm,  "activist" boory deutch.  Aha....

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.

Hate?
If just one person decides to keep their life due to their activism then they're doing a good job.

There needs to be more awareness to deal with people having issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 01:04:40 PM
These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.
Any legit stats on suicide rate compared to the general public?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on July 15, 2016, 01:06:30 PM
So sad. BD"H
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on July 15, 2016, 01:14:40 PM
Any legit stats on suicide rate compared to the general public?
12.93 per 100,000 for general.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 01:17:28 PM
12.93 per 100,000 for general.
Now how about the hard stat? If you believe the 26 then it would seem I big divergence.

I misread that. Maybe that is inline.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on July 15, 2016, 01:17:58 PM
These numbers Include overdose as suicide, no?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on July 15, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
What constitutes an "orthodox" suicide? Does the person have to come from an orthodox home or does the person have to be orthodox at the time of death ?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JoeyShmoe on July 15, 2016, 01:21:29 PM
:o

Non sense.  As suicide only exists in the orthodox circles.

Umm,  "activist" boory deutch.  Aha....

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.
You disagree that (depression and) suicide in the Orthodox community exists?!?!? There currently is no comfortable way for someone in our community to seek help for depression, there's the constant fear of friends, family, Shidduchim, schools etc. finding out. Not dealing with depression leads to grave consequences (no pun intended). I have no idea what happened in this specific case, but calling anybody trying to help "insane" and that they're "turning it into hate on our community" is either idiotic or ignorant!!!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JoeyShmoe on July 15, 2016, 01:22:42 PM
What constitutes an "orthodox" suicide? Does the person have to come from an orthodox home or does the person have to be orthodox at the time of death ?
Somebody originally from the Orthodox community, those that commit suicide after leaving the fold is because they weren't being helped while they were in the fold IMHO
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 15, 2016, 01:25:25 PM
:o

Non sense.  As suicide only exists in the orthodox circles.

Umm,  "activist" boory deutch.  Aha....

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.

Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people.
Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on July 15, 2016, 01:59:43 PM
Any legit stats on suicide rate compared to the general public?
I can't speak of Orthodox Jews in particular, but I have come across peer-reviewed research which found that religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior. The subjects in the study were those with clinical levels of depression IIRC.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: 12HRS on July 15, 2016, 02:06:16 PM
Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people.
Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.

Before I disagree about this line. I am not sure what this line has to do with being stigmatized. It would still be a stigma if you went to a non frum therapist.

The concern with a non frum therapist is that they convince the person to forget about g-d to deal with their issues as opposed to working within the framework of religion.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Aaaron on July 15, 2016, 02:08:21 PM
:o

Non sense.  As suicide only exists in the orthodox circles.

Umm,  "activist" boory deutch.  Aha....

These insane people will take every tragedy and turn  it into hate on our community.

Way to shoot the messenger and eschew a necessary discussion. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on July 15, 2016, 02:08:45 PM
Who cares about the source of this article or the "activists" quoted? When it comes to reporting on the Chassidic or "Ultra Orthodox" community, the Forward is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

Not recognizing that the scourge of mental health issues going untreated as an epidemic in the broader orthodox community is dangerous. And it is killing people.
Therapy has to stop being stigmatized. Your cardiologist doesn't need to be frum, and your ENT doesn't need to be male. Your therapist doesn't need to be frum or the same gender. People need to realize that depression and other mental health issues are sicknesses.

I don't know whether there are legit studies comparing suicide rates in our community vs the general population. Frankly, I don't care to know if it the same, more or less. The willful stigmatization of getting treated by licensed and trained mental health professionals in the orthodox community is real. It has to end.
Many Rabbonim will disagree with this statement, unless it is a particular situation that cannot be dealt with by any religious therapists and the best available option is a non-religious therapist.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 02:10:35 PM
The concern with a non frum therapist is that they convince the person to forget about g-d to deal with their issues as opposed to working within the framework of religion.
I know it is Friday but where did you get this from?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 15, 2016, 02:15:38 PM
These numbers Include overdose as suicide, no?
I believe so. I don't believe suicide is a growing problem at all. Mental health is very actively treated in the frum communities these days.

Overdose is definitely out of control though. More and more kids and adults are being exposed to dangerous drugs then ever before.
In Lakewood alone there are dozens of heroin addicts RCL.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: 12HRS on July 15, 2016, 02:32:08 PM
I know it is Friday but where did you get this from?

Talk to enough rabbis who see it happen

Many Rabbonim will disagree with this statement, unless it is a particular situation that cannot be dealt with by any religious therapists and the best available option is a non-religious therapist.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: A3 on July 15, 2016, 02:35:21 PM
Talk to enough rabbis who see it happen
If death is the alternative. I'll take option A.

Any statistics on how many go away from the community anyways. Even after seeing therapist from "within"?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 02:40:01 PM
Talk to enough rabbis who see it happen
Many non-frum therapist work within the framework of G-d.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 15, 2016, 02:41:56 PM
Many non-frum therapist work within the framework of G-d.
It is much harder for a non frum therapist to understand where a frum patient is coming from in order to deal with the issue properly.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 02:48:15 PM
It is much harder for a non frum therapist to understand where a frum patient is coming from in order to deal with the issue properly.
That is fair. My point is many religions recommend therapist and they work within the framework of G-d.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on July 15, 2016, 03:04:12 PM
That is fair. My point is many religions recommend therapist and they work within the framework of G-d.
Sure. Also, it is one of the jobs of a therapist to work within the framework of the client, whatever it may be. That said, you'll probably do a much better job as a therapist if you share that same framework and know exactly where the client is coming from.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 15, 2016, 03:16:20 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2016/07/the-pain-continues-77-young-frum-men-and-women-have-died-since-rosh-hashana-by-rabbi-zvi-gluck-amudim.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Dan on July 15, 2016, 03:24:39 PM
12.93 per 100,000 for general.
Now how about the hard stat? If you believe the 26 then it would seem I big divergence.

I misread that. Maybe that is inline.
There's something like 600K Orthodox Jews in the US, so statistically that would be about 78/year if the rates were the same as the general population.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on July 15, 2016, 03:28:41 PM
There's something like 600K Orthodox Jews in the US, so statistically that would be about 78/year if the rates were the same as the general population.
However Orthodox Jews are typically younger than the general population and suicide affects young people disproportionately, so statistically you would expect it to be higher than that...
How many you think in the New York area orthodox community the article is talking about?

Don't suicide rates go up with age?
https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yitzf on July 15, 2016, 03:47:10 PM
Quote
“The finger pointing is so sad,” Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, said in an email to The Forward. “I don’t claim to know what demons plagued Faigy, but those who do, from places outside Orthodoxy, are making very subjective, biased accusations.”

He suggested that leaving the Hasidic community may have contributed to the depression and other problems that Mayer suffered from.

“Could it, though, have been a feeling of emptiness in her secular ‘new life,’ as successful as it seemed to be?” Shafran wrote. “The finger pointers don’t want to even consider that one.”


http://forward.com/news/317900/the-brave-life-and-shocking-death-of-faigy-mayer/#ixzz4EVXoiLtW

Every death is tragic, but I would argue that we have two main connections, family and community.
Orthodox Judaism is a religious community and someone who is brought up with that sense of community and then leaves it may struggle with that loss of belonging. That's not a fault of the community.

As for family there is no excuse IMO for the family to sever that connection although some of those who leave will sever it themselves out of anger.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on July 15, 2016, 03:48:19 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2016/07/the-pain-continues-77-young-frum-men-and-women-have-died-since-rosh-hashana-by-rabbi-zvi-gluck-amudim.html

77 is baloney
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 15, 2016, 03:49:35 PM
77 is baloney
Why you saying that?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yitzf on July 15, 2016, 04:05:28 PM
77 is baloney
Includes overdoses
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 15, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
Includes overdoses
That's clear in the article. Why is it baloney?

77 self inflicted deaths by tortured souls, some intentional, some not. Tragic.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on July 15, 2016, 04:23:37 PM
Nothing to do with suicide. You can include reckless driving in that list.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 15, 2016, 04:28:43 PM
Nothing to do with suicide. You can include reckless driving in that list.
If you think there's an important commonality between reckless driving and the other two, go ahead and include it.

I don't, so I didn't.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yitzf on July 15, 2016, 04:36:29 PM
That's clear in the article. Why is it baloney?

77 self inflicted deaths by tortured souls, some intentional, some not. Tragic.
That's not what I meant. I was explaining why such a high figure is not necessarily out of hand.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ilherman on July 15, 2016, 04:44:51 PM
Hate?
If just one person decides to keep their life due to their activism then they're doing a good job.

There needs to be more awareness to deal with people having issues.
Yes.  Hate.  Even according to their statistics  of how many suicides we had in our in the past year (which I'm not convinced is true) we still have lower suicide rates than the public. Unfortunately suicide is something that always existed in all communities. Why start talking  about rape and bash our community. We are no different than other communities. We have over enough therapist and we have people going to them. Simply hating. And it's sad that they are using a tragedy for their hate purposes.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ilherman on July 15, 2016, 04:48:27 PM
Way to shoot the messenger and eschew a necessary discussion.
Huh? Can you email to me what the necessary discussion besides bashing rabbanim here is? Can you explain to me where rape and sex come into the picture.  As I said suicide is nothing higher in our community. If something it's probably way lower.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 15, 2016, 04:59:08 PM
That's not what I meant. I was explaining why such a high figure is not necessarily out of hand.
Yes, I should have responded to Moshe123.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Aaaron on July 15, 2016, 05:42:14 PM
Huh? Can you email to me what the necessary discussion besides bashing rabbanim here is? Can you explain to me where rape and sex come into the picture.  As I said suicide is nothing higher in our community. If something it's probably way lower.

No, I will not email you.  This needs to be a public discussion.  And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play?  You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.  There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yitzf on July 15, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
No, I will not email you.  This needs to be a public discussion.  And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play?  You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.  There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.
There are two separate issues. One it's mental health in our community and the other is suicide and overdose by those who left the community. Both are very important.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ilherman on July 15, 2016, 07:10:44 PM
No, I will not email you.  This needs to be a public discussion.  And where did rape or Rabbonim bashing even come into play?  You're the only one that's mentioning it.

Awareness of mental illness and drug use is important in our communities, I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.  There is certainly a stigma around both of them, and that very likely can lead to suicide.
The link that the OP posted.

My gosh. What exactly has to be addressed? Whoever is sick goes to therapy. Why is earth does it have to do with our community?????????????
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 15, 2016, 07:22:15 PM
The link that the OP posted.

My gosh. What exactly has to be addressed? Whoever is sick goes to therapy. Why is earth does it have to do with our community?????????????
Do you live with your head on the sand?
There are two separate issues. One it's mental health in our community and the other is suicide and overdose by those who left the community. Both are very important.
It isn't 2 separate communities
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Aaaron on July 15, 2016, 07:24:27 PM
The link that the OP posted.

My gosh. What exactly has to be addressed? Whoever is sick goes to therapy. Why is earth does it have to do with our community?????????????

I don't see the word rape anywhere in the link the OP posted, so I would suggest not using hyperbolic buzzwords to try to minimize the issue.

And what I highlighted is exactly the issue; they DON'T go to therapy because they feel they're the only ones that have whatever issue, and it will hurt their reputation, they'll have no shidduch prospects, etc.  It needs to be talked about so people who are suffering realize they're not alone, and they can/should seek help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 15, 2016, 07:57:43 PM



And what I highlighted is exactly the issue; they DON'T go to therapy because they feel they're the only ones that have whatever issue, and it will hurt their reputation, they'll have no shidduch prospects, etc.  It needs to be talked about so people who are suffering realize they're not alone, and they can/should seek help.

FWIW, one news report quotes a distant family member saying that the subject of the Forward article was on his way to the doctor for anti-depressants.

He in fact was apparently being treated.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 16, 2016, 10:08:15 PM

FWIW, one news report quotes a distant family member saying that the subject of the Forward article was on his way to the doctor for anti-depressants.

He in fact was apparently being treated.
Exactly. The vast majority of the mentally ill from our community are aggressively treated.

The stigma days are long gone.

It is true though that shiduchim is a concern for the mentally ill, but it's just as much or even more of a concern for the physically ill.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ilherman on July 17, 2016, 01:56:39 AM
Some people here are off their minds. Tip to Aaron, don't be shy to get your issues taken care of.

I unfortunately know more than enough people who use therapy. Why do people love love when they can say "we have problems in our community"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 17, 2016, 08:15:55 AM
I guess anyone contemplating suicide is obviously mentally ill and is obviously already receiving treatment.

Depression is something only experienced by people born with chemical imbalances. 
Everybody obviously has amazing parents and supportive relatives.
No such thing as someone who has no social life.
No such thing as a regular normal kid falling into difficult times deciding they have nothing to live for.

Any other universal truths we need to know?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 08:23:41 AM
I guess anyone contemplating suicide is obviously mentally ill and is obviously already receiving treatment.

Depression is something only experienced by people born with chemical imbalances. 
Everybody obviously has amazing parents and supportive relatives.
No such thing as someone who has no social life.
No such thing as a regular normal kid falling into difficult times deciding they have nothing to live for.

Any other universal truths we need to know?
Your point is...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 17, 2016, 08:36:55 AM
Your point is...

Gee, that this thread should be deleted because anyone that needs help is already getting it.
Awareness is not necessary and we should condemn anyone who is pretending to help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on July 17, 2016, 08:55:05 AM
When they will name the 77, you'll see how stupid that articles was.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 17, 2016, 08:57:31 AM
Some people here are off their minds. Tip to Aaron, don't be shy to get your issues taken care of.

I unfortunately know more than enough people who use therapy. Why do people love love when they can say "we have problems in our community"
I think your assumption that everyone is trying to be critical of our community is where you're wrong.  Perhaps some of us truly care about the individual. It's irrelevant how we compare statistically to other communities if there's even one suicide that could've and should've been prevented than that's one too many.  Unfortunately,  it's a lot more than one therefore we are discussing what the issues are that could be fixed to prevent it.  That doesn't need to be taken as a wholesale indictment on orthodox judaism and it doesn't require a need to attack and decry those who are trying to discuss the problem and or solutions (though I doubt much can really come from a forum such as this)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on July 17, 2016, 09:22:40 AM
I think your assumption that everyone is trying to be critical of our community is where your wrong.  Perhaps some of us truly care about the individual. It's irrelevant how we compare statistically to other communities if there's even one suicide that could've and should've been prevented than that's one too many.  Unfortunately,  it's a lot more than one therefore we are discussing what the issues are that could be fixed to prevent it.  That doesn't need to be taken as a wholesale indictment on orthodox judaism and it doesn't require a need to attack and decry those who are trying to discuss the problem and or solutions (though I doubt much can really come from a forum such as this)
+1 though I partially disagree with your last statement. If the discussion was limited to just this forum you'd be correct but if its openly discussed here and on numerous other forums that would help drive awareness.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 17, 2016, 09:23:09 AM
+1 though I partially disagree with your last statement. If the discussion was limited to just this forum you'd be correct but if its openly discussed here and on numerous other forums that would help drive awareness.
Valid point.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
Gee, that this thread should be deleted because anyone that needs help is already getting it.
Awareness is not necessary and we should condemn anyone who is pretending to help.
My question is, why do you assume that there isn't awareness?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on July 17, 2016, 09:30:02 AM
My question is, why do you assume that there isn't awareness?
People like to cover things up
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on July 17, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
My question is, why do you assume that there isn't awareness?
It's not an assumption. I witness it on a constant basis.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:32:31 AM


It's irrelevant how we compare statistically to other communities if there's even one suicide that could've and should've been prevented than that's one too many. 

It is very relevant. If we have more, than the problem is likely something unique to our community.

If we have less, than in whatever it is that we do that makes the problem less than in other communities, perhaps we should be strengthening ourselves.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 17, 2016, 09:39:35 AM

It is very relevant. If we have more, than the problem is likely something unique to our community.

If we have less, than in whatever it is that we do that makes the problem less than in other communities, perhaps we should be strengthening ourselves.
I did not mean that we shouldn't look at other communities to help us understand what the issue. All I meant was that as long as there is what we can do to prevent it from happening then we should work on it regardless of the prevelancy verse others.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
When they will name the 77, you'll see how stupid that articles was.
They shouldn't, and hopefully never will.

What about that list makes the article stupid?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 09:40:51 AM
Gee, that this thread should be deleted because anyone that needs help is already getting it.
Awareness is not necessary and we should condemn anyone who is pretending to help.
Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.
Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.
Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist.
There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:41:41 AM
I did not mean that we shouldn't look at other communities to help us understand what the issue. All I meant was that as long as there is what we can do to prevent it from happening then we should work on it regardless of the prevelancy verse others.
Of course that is true, but if we want real solutions, we need real data, not whatever attracts the most attention, even if it's misleading.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:43:06 AM
Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.
Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.
Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist.
There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.

I assume you mean psychotherapy?

Good point, though. I think what bothers me is not bringing attention to it, but not focusing on helpful information, just shock material.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 09:43:25 AM

I assume you mean psychotherapy?
Right
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 17, 2016, 09:58:40 AM
Just to clarify, there are many many issues that need addressing. Addiction is a prime example. There is nowhere near enough awareness.
Il give you an example that I know of. - a recovering alcoholic is struggling to stay dry. At a kiddush, his friends actively encourage him to have a drink etc.. they are not aware of the struggles of an alcoholic and have no idea what this even means.
Drug abuse - most frum parents/spouses are not aware of the symptoms until it's way to late....

Both of these examples would never happen in general society where everyone is aware of alcoholism, recovery, addiction and drugs.

On the other hand, physiological therapy is no longer stigmatized in the frum community. In Lakewood there are hundreds of therapists. In the average Lakewood class room at least 3 kids are seeing a therapist.
There is plenty of awareness of both mental illness and family/social situations that require attention.

So making the argument about mental health stigmatization, which was valid 20 years ago, detracts from the real issues.
+1 to all this,  but mental health issues may be much more stigmatized in other communities.  Your exposure is to Lakewood. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on July 17, 2016, 10:00:09 AM
They shouldn't, and hopefully never will.

What about that list makes the article stupid?

Because they don't exist.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 17, 2016, 10:21:12 AM
Because they don't exist.
Baloney,  I'm surprised it's not more. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 11:40:38 AM
Because they don't exist.
It's pretty hard to assert that something does NOT exist.
What are you basing this on?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Aaaron on July 17, 2016, 12:00:16 PM
Exactly. The vast majority of the mentally ill from our community are aggressively treated.

The stigma days are long gone.

It is true though that shiduchim is a concern for the mentally ill, but it's just as much or even more of a concern for the physically ill.

From what I hear, that may be true in your community and mine, but not so much in the Chassidish circles, where a lot of these cases come from.

Some people here are off their minds. Tip to Aaron, don't be shy to get your issues taken care of.

I unfortunately know more than enough people who use therapy. Why do people love love when they can say "we have problems in our community"

Lol, grow up, kid.  You're way too sensitive to people mentioning anything negative about our religion.  It's definitely not helpful.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 12:39:33 PM


Because I want to pretend they don't exist.

FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 12:42:22 PM
From what I hear, that may be true in your community and mine, but not so much in the Chassidish circles, where a lot of these cases come from.

Lol, grow up, kid.  You're way too sensitive to people mentioning anything negative about our religion.  It's definitely not helpful.

And maybe you need to examine your social circle if you know that many people in therapy.
Then I don't know how much discussing it online will accomplish (not that there's anything so bad about discussing it).

Sure, there are plenty of Chassidim online, but they are probably aware of it already.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 17, 2016, 12:55:05 PM


And maybe you need to examine your social circle if you know that many people in therapy.

*This* is the type of comment which perpetuates the stigma.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Aaaron on July 17, 2016, 01:03:26 PM

*This* is the type of comment which perpetuates the stigma.

True.  Edited.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 01:05:40 PM
Because they don't exist.
What if it's "only" 35 overdoses this year, not enough to have to "do something"?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 01:10:10 PM
What if it's "only" 35 overdoses this year, not enough to have to "do something"?
You could ask that question to the activists trumpeting numbers as well.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 17, 2016, 01:12:28 PM
What if it's "only" 35 overdoses this year, not enough to have to "do something"?
So let us all attack with the most powerful adjectives in our arsenal.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 01:12:28 PM
You could ask that question to the activists trumpeting numbers as well.
They obviously have an organization who offer assistance. I don't know much about them, but this is a way of raising funds.
No different than RCCS counting cancer patients in Lakewood for fundraising...
It's distasteful, but necessary to get people to wake up and act ($)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on July 17, 2016, 09:45:29 PM
They obviously have an organization who offer assistance. I don't know much about them, but this is a way of raising funds.
No different than RCCS counting cancer patients in Lakewood for fundraising...
It's distasteful, but necessary to get people to wake up and act ($)
Someone donating would want to know how big of a need there is. Most people don't have unlimited resources and will allocate according to how big the issue is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on July 17, 2016, 09:58:10 PM
Because making up numbers doesn't help the cause.

Give some backup for me to believe this outlandish claim.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 17, 2016, 10:03:58 PM
There already are numerous organizations for treating anxiety and depression. What does this one add?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 10:07:14 PM
Because making up numbers doesn't help the cause.

Give some backup for me to believe this outlandish claim.
You're not being reasonable.

BH you are clearly clueless about what is going on on the streets of the frum communities.
Its all very nice, but you should definitely continue to research this. - Ignorance in these matters can be deadly if it ever C"V affects someone close to you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
There already are numerous organizations for treating anxiety and depression. What does this one add?
It sounds like they deal with serious crises, not mild cases of post partum depression.
Cmiiw but most organization don't want to go anywhere near the filth that they deal with...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 17, 2016, 10:11:54 PM
It sounds like they deal with serious crises, not mild cases of post partum depression.
Cmiiw but most organization don't want to go anywhere near the filth that they deal with...
I bh have no clue. Is that the case?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 10:13:10 PM
I bh have no clue. Is that the case?
Is it the case that most organizations don't deal with "messy" situations? You bet!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 17, 2016, 10:19:50 PM
There are many, many young men and women from frum homes who have serious addiction issues.  It is often a package deal with emotional and mental health issues.  I am not someone involved in this at all,  and know more than one person who died of a drug overdose, and several more that are in and out of rehab.  Once an addict it's always there lurking. 
When they are niftar there is a clear effort to keep it quiet,  out of consideration for the families. (most of these are not reported on anywhere at all,  very few are 'high profile').  I understand that fully,  but the side effect is that people simply don't believe it's there. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2016, 10:22:43 PM
There are many, many young men and women from frum homes who have serious addiction issues.  It is often a package deal with emotional and mental health issues.  I am not someone involved in this at all,  and know more than one person who died of a drug overdose, and several more that are in and out of rehab.  Once an addict it's always there lurking. 
When they are niftar there is a clear effort to keep it quiet,  out of consideration for the families. (most of these are not reported on anywhere at all,  very few are 'high profile').  I understand that fully,  but the side effect is that people simply don't believe it's there.
So true.

So many... The numbers of addicts who are knocking on deaths door are mind boggling. RC"l
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on July 17, 2016, 10:29:58 PM
Anyone who thinks that 77 deaths via suicide or OD in this community since RH is overstated simply isn't in-tune to what's really going on out there.

I think the real number may be higher.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on July 17, 2016, 11:47:35 PM
Anyone who thinks that 77 deaths via suicide or OD in this community since RH is overstated simply isn't in-tune to what's really going on out there.

I think the real number may be higher.
Most probably is
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on July 18, 2016, 12:10:54 AM
Just a quick question. When we say in the community, is it in all of the frum community? Is it more in some parts of the community? Are some more prone to drug's or OD?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on July 18, 2016, 10:01:18 AM
Just a quick question. When we say in the community, is it in all of the frum community?
Yes

Quote
Is it more in some parts of the community?
Depends who you ask but doesnt seem like it to me

Quote
Are some more prone to drug's or OD?
No
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yitzf on July 18, 2016, 10:35:14 PM
A very insightful (and easy to watch) primer on addiction (5 min).



I take no responsibility for the scientific accuracy.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: skyguy918 on July 18, 2016, 11:12:24 PM
I take no responsibility for the scientific accuracy.
Don't worry about that, Kurzgesagt is always on point.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2016, 08:27:36 AM
I'm just trying to figure out if this is a bash Amudim thread or a handwringing what shall we do thread. Suicide, along with its causes, mental illness and addiction, have always been swept under the rug like molestation.

Amudim is actively trying to prevent suicides. Whether the number of deaths from suicide or unintentional overdose is overstated (and i believe it is understated) is immaterial. This is not a fund-raising gimmick. Its to raise awareness.

I have firsthand knowledge of some of their activities. They help people find therapists and subsidize therapy. Direct struggling addicts to people with experience in recovery.

So, yes there is a need for yet another organization. At least one that takes addiction and mental illness seriously.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way shape or form involved in running this organization.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on August 07, 2016, 09:19:04 PM
Anyone have a PDF version of this week's Mishpacha article
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 07, 2016, 10:32:37 PM
Anyone have a PDF version of this week's Mishpacha article
I don't have. But you mean last week right?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on August 07, 2016, 10:37:02 PM
I don't have. But you mean last week right?
This week had a cover story/article about Tzvi Gluck, founder of Amudim. IMO it was very poorly written.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: srf60 on August 07, 2016, 10:43:52 PM
Anyone have a PDF version of this week's Mishpacha article
You can probably email them for it.
I've gotten some articles from Ami in the past.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 01, 2016, 05:49:24 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160901/3e2006e3652210f4fca3f0dd918727e8.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on September 05, 2016, 02:29:08 PM
2nd overdose in the past week today.

One in Rockland County last week and another one today in Brooklyn.

Sad!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 05, 2016, 03:42:33 PM
2nd overdose in the past week today.

One in Rockland County last week and another one today in Brooklyn.

Sad!
But we dont have a drug problem.

**Lifts carpet, gets broom**
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 05, 2016, 04:28:37 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2016/09/lakewood-coalition-to-host-groundbreaking-community-event-on-alcohol-and-drug-abuse.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hocker on September 05, 2016, 04:44:01 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2016/09/lakewood-coalition-to-host-groundbreaking-community-event-on-alcohol-and-drug-abuse.html
Areivim competition?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on September 06, 2016, 10:56:15 AM
http://www.kikar.co.il/209155.html

Didn't want to write the name...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 06, 2016, 11:26:59 AM
This is so sad 😢.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:34:27 AM
But we dont have a drug problem.

**Lifts carpet, gets broom**
We def do, we also have driving problems, internet problems, and gambling problems. But significantly less than the national average. Not even close.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Freddie on September 06, 2016, 11:38:26 AM
We def do, we also have driving problems, internet problems, and gambling problems. But significantly less than the national average. Not even close.

Since there are no reliable statistics, I don't see how one can make such a statement. Anecdotally, however, I guess it depends on what you're exposed to.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 06, 2016, 11:40:43 AM
We def do, we also have driving problems, internet problems, and gambling problems. But significantly less than the national average. Not even close.

It's not a race or a zero sum game.
We should be doing our best to bring the number closer to 0.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:41:30 AM
This is so sad 😢.
Slacktivisim
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:43:00 AM
Since there are no reliable statistics, I don't see how one can make such a statement. Anecdotally, however, I guess it depends on what you're exposed to.
I obviously spent a couple moments before posting that crunching some rough numbers. I was extremely loose with the stats to ensure it wasn't an incorrect statement.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 06, 2016, 11:43:00 AM
Slacktivisim
You know how i spend my days!?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:44:06 AM
It's not a race or a zero sum game.
We should be doing our best to bring the number closer to 0.
I agree 100%. I just can't stand those that say we don't give a damn and make it like people are dropping like flies.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 11:44:32 AM
Since there are no reliable statistics, I don't see how one can make such a statement. Anecdotally, however, I guess it depends on what you're exposed to.
What u don't see doesn't happen?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:45:22 AM
Slacktivisim
And what my friend have you done for the cause?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:45:33 AM
You know how i spend my days!?
Saying its sad does nothing to change the reality. And since you brought it up, maybe you want to share how you spend your days.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 06, 2016, 11:46:49 AM
Saying its sad does nothing to change the reality. And since you brought it up, maybe you want to share how you spend your days.
It helps me express and share my deep sorrow. Sorry for being selfish. Now stop trolling.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:49:27 AM
And what my friend have you done for the cause?
Those that know me, know that i am very involved in preventative education and in helping addicts. I can provide references if necessary.

So, yes, i say this from a position of some authority.

Hnad-wringing and statements that add nothing may as well just be +1's.

And since we are pointing fingers...your turn...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
But significantly less than the national average. Not even close.
I don't believe that is correct.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Freddie on September 06, 2016, 11:50:04 AM
I don't believe that is correct.
I'm with you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:51:31 AM
I don't believe that is correct.

I'm with you.
Can I assume that you both did at least a couple moments research?
Based on your statements the answer is no. Do that and come back to me.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:51:33 AM
It helps me express and share my deep sorrow. Sorry for being selfish. Now stop trolling.
Thats fine, but what are you going to do about it. I'm not trolling. I'm just sick of people saying its so sad and moving on as if it wont happen again and again. Saying its sad is nice and sentimental.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:52:49 AM




And since we are pointing fingers...your turn...
I don't claim to be an activist.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
Can I assume that you both did at least a couple moments research?
Based on your statements the answer is no. Do that and come back to me.
Have you been to a 12 step meeting lately? When there are more yarmulkes in the room than not we are pretty close to the national average, if not above it. And this is not ancedotes of one meeting. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 06, 2016, 11:55:45 AM
Have you been to a 12 step meeting lately? When there are more yarmulkes in the room than not we are pretty close to the national average, if not above it. And this is not ancedotes of one meeting.

That doesn't prove anything, maybe we are better at asking for help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on September 06, 2016, 11:57:06 AM
That doesn't prove anything, maybe we are better at asking for help.
No
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 11:58:01 AM

Have you been to a 12 step meeting lately?
Yes.
If you go to the post office in BP there are mostly yidden. I shall deduce from there that Jews across the states get more mail than non-jews.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 11:58:54 AM
That doesn't prove anything, maybe we are better at asking for help.
Guaranteed we are worse at asking for help than the national average. Help, is the last thing that is sought. Help=Stigma
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 11:59:39 AM
We def do, we also have driving problems, internet problems, and gambling problems. But significantly less than the national average. Not even close.
But we also could have close to 0. For example if we went to the police for sexual abuse we would have close to 0
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:01:08 PM
Guaranteed we are worse at asking for help than the national average. Help, is the last thing that is sought. Help=Stigma
Yet another stereotype. We have no issue asking for help if we feel we need it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
Yet another stereotype. We have no issue asking for help if we feel we need it.
the issue is we never feel we need it or that it could help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:02:33 PM
But we also could have close to 0. For example if we went to the police for sexual abuse we would have close to 0
Once again an incorrect assumption. What's with you guys today?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:03:26 PM
the issue is we never feel we need it or that it could help.

Once again an incorrect assumption. What's with you guys today?
on a roll.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:03:56 PM
Yes.
If you go to the post office in BP there are mostly yidden. I shall deduce from there that Jews across the states get more mail than non-jews.
Wha?!?!!? If the meetings have majority jews then proportionally i would say that in areas that there are less jews there will be fewer at the meetings. How is your deduction logical???? I'm just saying we have lots of addicts and very few who seek help. We are more or less on par with our non-jewish counterparts percentage-wise.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:04:33 PM
Once again an incorrect assumption. What's with you guys today?
How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 06, 2016, 12:05:48 PM
But we also could have close to 0. For example if we went to the police for sexual abuse we would have close to 0
That's quite a ludicrous statement to make; and that's putting it kindly
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 06, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.

It's wrong bec there are predators everywhere, going to the police might prevent some of them but the most important thing is that it stops them quicker.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:07:13 PM
How is this incorrect? If a rebbe knew that if he got caught they would go to the cops, everyone would find out/ruin his name and family name and may end up in jail he wouldn't do it. Now what does he loose? If he is caught its swept under the rug.
I see you do no research before debating.
I'll start you off, its a mental illness and look into past groups and sects that had the same issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:07:56 PM
Wha?!?!!? If the meetings have majority jews then proportionally i would say that in areas that there are less jews there will be fewer at the meetings. How is your deduction logical???? I'm just saying we have lots of addicts and very few who seek help. We are more or less on par with our non-jewish counterparts percentage-wise.
Your using your own deductions to guide your reasoning. Look at the actual stats.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:08:04 PM
That's quite a ludicrous statement to make; and that's putting it kindly
explain?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:10:41 PM
Once again an incorrect assumption. What's with you guys today?
Agree with you on sexual abuse.

Most addicts I know or have met will never ask for help until its very late in the game and there is no choice, as they are facing life altering events (i.e. a spouse threatening to leave, loss of a job or home, etc.) Those that dont ask for help usually end up as death notices here, in prison, or insane asylums. Help is sought more now than in the past but there is a stigma associated with asking for help in the frum community. If i had a dollar for every frum person who has told me that 12 step meetings are not for them, or are held in a church and they wont go into a church, or "I cant go to a social worker because...". 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:11:30 PM
It's wrong bec there are predators everywhere, going to the police might prevent some of them but the most important thing is that it stops them quicker.
Preventing some of them is a start.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 12:12:15 PM
Yet another stereotype. We have no issue asking for help if we feel we need it.
There is a tremendous stigma involved with drug abuse in our communities. The fact is that it goes on everywhere and it is not talked about. For example I know that in one particular shul there are at least 9 different people (that I know of) that have siblings who have seeked out help for addiction. All these 9 are friends and not one of them knows about the other. I guarantee you there are more. None of these people are showing up on "stats".

Just because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not going on. If people began the conversation, we would realize that no family hasnt been affected by this in one way or the other.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 06, 2016, 12:12:24 PM
Thats fine, but what are you going to do about it. I'm not trolling. I'm just sick of people saying its so sad and moving on as if it wont happen again and again. Saying its sad is nice and sentimental.
I agree its not enough to just say its sad and move on. Lets hear what you've done to help the cause.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:12:48 PM
Agree with you on sexual abuse.

Most addicts I know or have met will never ask for help until its very late in the game and there is no choice, as they are facing life altering events (i.e. a spouse threatening to leave, loss of a job or home, etc.) Those that dont ask for help usually end up as death notices here, in prison, or insane asylums. Help is sought more now than in the past but there is a stigma associated with asking for help in the frum community. If i had a dollar for every frum person who has told me that 12 step meetings are not for them, or are held in a church and they wont go into a church, or "I cant go to a social worker because...".
I am not arguing on your personal experience. I am simply saying that it is no worse than than the national average. To the contrary it's significantly better.
It is still horrible nonetheless.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:13:49 PM
I see you do no research before debating.
I'll start you off, its a mental illness and look into past groups and sects that had the same issue.
OK ill take your word at it. So you are saying regardless of the consequences he will do it anyway? What if the consequence was to be killed. Do you think that he still would because of mental illness?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:14:33 PM
OK ill take your word at it. So you are saying regardless of the consequences he will do it anyway? What if the consequence was to be killed. Do you think that he still would because of mental illness?
On a side note I'm all for bringing back the death penalty
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:17:26 PM
I am not arguing on your personal experience. I am simply saying that it is no worse than than the national average. To the contrary it's significantly better.
It is still horrible nonetheless.
What is better? The % of people that need help and dont ask for it? Or just the % of people that need help overall?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:20:41 PM
I am not arguing on your personal experience. I am simply saying that it is no worse than than the national average. To the contrary it's significantly better.
It is still horrible nonetheless.
What is your source for saying its "significatly better" other than a wish that it was so?

Because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not out there.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:20:47 PM
What is better? The % of people that need help and dont ask for it? Or just the % of people that need help overall?
The latter. Im quite sure the former is also though I haven't actually researched that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:21:37 PM
There is a tremendous stigma involved with drug abuse in our communities. The fact is that it goes on everywhere and it is not talked about. For example I know that in one particular shul there are at least 9 different people (that I know of) that have siblings who have seeked out help for addiction. All these 9 are friends and not one of them knows about the other. I guarantee you there are more. None of these people are showing up on "stats".

Just because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not going on. If people began the conversation, we would realize that no family hasnt been affected by this in one way or the other.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:23:53 PM




Because you dont know about it doesnt mean its not out there.
Oh, I know it's out there. I have family members who have been or are addicted. I have family members that died from overdose. I am all to familiar with it.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:26:06 PM
The latter. Im quite sure the former is also though I haven't actually researched that.
How many yungerliet in Lakewood are addicted to internet gambling since they legalized it in NJ?
How many young frum people are smoking Marijuana and cant stop?
How many closet sex addicts are abusing their wives who are too ashamed to ask for help because we dont talk about sex in public.

Come on. Its people that are willfuly blind, that suppress the real numbers and prolong the stigma of those seeking help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:27:57 PM
Oh, I know it's out there. I have family members who have been or are addicted. I have family members that died from overdose. I am all to familiar with it.
Therein lies your misunderstanding. Once an addict always an addict. They can on be "have been" if theyre dead.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:28:00 PM
The latter. Im quite sure the former is also though I haven't actually researched that.
ok now i know your joking or just full of bs
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:28:24 PM
Therein lies your misunderstanding. Once an addict always an addict. They can on be "have been" if theyre dead.
wrong - depends on what
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:28:35 PM
Therein lies your misunderstanding. Once an addict always an addict. They can on be "have been" if theyre dead.
Great attitude.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:29:29 PM
ok now i know your joking or just full of bs
Neither. I invite you to provide something to back up your numbers. I gladly can later when I'm in from of a computer
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
How many yungerliet in Lakewood are addicted to internet gambling since they legalized it in NJ?
How many young frum people are smoking Marijuana and cant stop?
How many closet sex addicts are abusing their wives who are too ashamed to ask for help because we dont talk about sex in public.

Come on. Its people that are willfuly blind, that suppress the real numbers and prolong the stigma of those seeking help.
ah who cares. we have similar to the national average so it makes no difference.  we should be proud that we are like the goyim.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:32:56 PM
wrong - depends on what
please explain. For every addict that you show me thats cured I will show you 5 who have relapsed after being "cured".
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:33:11 PM
ah who cares. we have similar to the national average so it makes no difference.  we should be proud that we are like the goyim.
Now your bringing in the irrational 3rd grade retorts. Kudos to you. I was wondering how long it would last.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:35:12 PM
please explain. For every addict that you show me thats cured I will show you 5 who have relapsed after being "cured".
of course most are not but i was just trying to say it depends on what. e.g cigs, alcohol, heavy drugs.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:35:31 PM
Now your bringing in the irrational 3rd grade retorts. Kudos to you. I was wondering how long it would last.
show me proof or shut up
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:38:46 PM
show me proof or shut up
Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 06, 2016, 12:41:03 PM
show me proof or shut up

You are not making yourself look intelligent, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:42:08 PM
Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.
So show the numbers that's all
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 12:42:20 PM
You are not making yourself look intelligent, unfortunately.
Don't need to
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 12:44:19 PM
So show the numbers that's all
As I said earlier

I invite you to provide something to back up your numbers. I gladly can later when I'm in from of a computer
I only have so much time and energy to expend on arguing with uneducated debaters online. So it will need to wait until tonight when I'm in front of a computer with some spare time to put something together
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 06, 2016, 12:46:40 PM
is it really a difference how bad & far our numbers have spun??

i think we all agree;
its out of control and is growing very fast in all sects
this topic needs to be discussed more and much more openly
people who have influence should get the addicts to go for help
 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:50:28 PM
Your emotions are getting the better of you. Keep it mature. I have no proof. Noone has proof. All I can show you is a basic layout of numbers. Though if you weren't too busy throwing elementary grade insults at other anonymous people online who dare to argue with you then you would have seen the same yourself on Mr Google.
Here is a recent study that shows that you cannot have numbers to back you up because they dont exist. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4487707/

Every argument I made is included in this study. We're pretty damn close to the average, and what difference does it make. Its bad and people are dying all too often as a result of willful blindness and inaction. Whatever your sources are its unimportnat as long as we recognize that there is trojan horse in our midst which, if left unabated, will ruin us and rot us from the inside out.

If you know someone who has a problem please refer them to an organization that can help. If you have any questions feel free to PM. 

 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:51:42 PM
is it really a difference how bad & far our numbers have spun??

i think we all agree;
its out of control and is growing very fast in all sects
this topic needs to be discussed more and much more openly
people who have influence should get the addicts to go for help
Agreed

No one has more influence than someone who is close to the person who needs help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
As I said earlier
I only have so much time and energy to expend on arguing with uneducated debaters online. So it will need to wait until tonight when I'm in front of a computer with some spare time to put something together
Please list your qualifications (other than internet researcher) in regards to this topic as well, especially when calling others uneducated. Have you dealt with addicts?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:07:07 PM
Please list your qualifications (other than internet researcher) in regards to this topic as well, especially when calling others uneducated. Have you dealt with addicts?
I don't have many qualifications. Yes I have worked with addicts in the past but that makes no difference in this case. It's common decency to at least have basic concrete knowledge of a subject before vehemently opposing someones opinions/facts.
Even a 5 min internet search will yield a small amount of knowledge and it's brutally obvious that it hasn't been done.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:08:20 PM
look what pops up in google. pretty sad

http://imgur.com/hWiefLL
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on September 06, 2016, 01:10:43 PM
All this talk of above or below the national average is really ridiculous and completely ignoring the topic at hand.

In other words welcome to DDF.

@Emkay no matter what stats you bring, people will always say we are more insular than the world and therefore no stats will matter.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on September 06, 2016, 01:11:18 PM
look what pops up in google. pretty sad

http://imgur.com/hWiefLL
That's based on your history LOL.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 06, 2016, 01:12:27 PM
BTW
#SuicidePreventionWeek is trending now on Twitter!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 06, 2016, 01:14:04 PM
That's based on your history LOL.
-1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:14:12 PM
That's based on your history LOL.
nope... try it yourself. I did on a work computer in a browser that was never used before.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:14:36 PM
look what pops up in google. pretty sad

http://imgur.com/hWiefLL
Maybe it's targeted, I don't have that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:14:40 PM
I don't have many qualifications. Yes I have worked with addicts in the past but that makes no difference in this case. It's common decency to at least have basic concrete knowledge of a subject before vehemently opposing someones opinions/facts.
Even a 5 min internet search will yield a small amount of knowledge and it's brutally obvious that it hasn't been done.
You know what, you're right. We are less worse off than our non-jewish counterparts. Now what? Does thag make you feel better?

You think this is some smear campaign of frum jews? Do we have a problem? A serious problem? A deadly serious un/under-addressed problem?

You want to be right on the numbers and wrong on the issues? Is that what this is about? Ego?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:16:29 PM
BTW
#SuicidePreventionWeek is trending now on Twitter!
Suicide is only one symptom of rhe problem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
You know what, you're right. We are less worse off than our non-jewish counterparts. Now what? Does thag make you feel better?

You think this is some smear campaign of frum jews? Do we have a problem? A serious problem? A deadly serious un/under-addressed problem?

You want to be right on the numbers and wrong on the issues? Is that what this is about? Ego?
No. Read the convo back and I never said that it's not an issue. It's a large and horrific problem and even 1 is 1 to many.
I was merely mentioning it in regard to those that are making it seem like a predominantly Jewish issue, and that the insular Jewish community has a significantly and relatively high rate of drug overdoses that its being brushed under every rug and into every closet.
But yes, I agree something must be done. So talk tachlis, what shall be done that isn't being done already?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:20:48 PM
All this talk of above or below the national average is really ridiculous and completely ignoring the topic at hand.

In other words welcome to DDF.

@Emkay no matter what stats you bring, people will always say we are more insular than the world and therefore no stats will matter.
the only stats that would matter would be 0
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on September 06, 2016, 01:22:39 PM
nope... try it yourself. I did on a work computer in a browser that was never used before.
Live in a jewish area? Change your IP to a different city and go incognito I'm pretty sure it won't come up.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:24:45 PM
Who said it was predominantly jewish issue??? Well lets start with education.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:27:04 PM
Live in a jewish area? Change your IP to a different city and go incognito I'm pretty sure it won't come up.
i work in the city.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on September 06, 2016, 01:28:03 PM
Who said it was predominantly jewish issue??? Well lets start with education.
Classes in yeshiva about drugs, sex, abuse?

Seems like something that's up to each parent, no? Or at least seems like it should be that way based on how the system is set up now.

i work in the city.
Oh THE city, gotcha :P. Well that explains it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:28:41 PM
Classes in yeshiva about drugs, sex, abuse?

Seems like something that's up to each parent, no? Or at least seems like it should be that way based on how the system is set up now.
 Oh THE city, gotcha :P. Well that explains it.
Manhattan lol
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 06, 2016, 01:28:46 PM
nope... try it yourself. I did on a work computer in a browser that was never used before.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:30:46 PM


Well lets start with education.

Educate them about what? Anyone taking them knows how dangerous they are. By the time they are at the stage of drugs they are quite exposed to the world at large.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:30:49 PM

ok maybe its location based. But deff not based on my history. Still very sad.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:31:18 PM

Educate them about what? Anyone taking them knows how dangerous they are. By the time they are at the stage of drugs they are quite exposed to the world at large.
any reason why you deleted your screenshot?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:33:58 PM
any reason why you deleted your screenshot?
Yea. I thought that maybe the word "the" was necessary and thats what was prompting the results so I deleted it while I double checked. It still didn't give me those results but I didn't see a need to put it back up.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:34:52 PM
Yea. I thought that maybe the word "the" was necessary and thats what was prompting the results so I deleted it while I double checked. It still didn't give me those results but I didn't see a need to put it back up.
were you located? but the results are deff ther and not based on my history.  http://isearchfrom.com/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:35:25 PM
were you located? im guessing its that.
Currently in flatbush but all my traffic is routed through a VPN.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:40:04 PM
incognito and signed out

http://imgur.com/wt07zx8
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:40:08 PM
Classes in yeshiva about drugs, sex, abuse?

If our friend thinks its not as bad as the general population, then what is the general consensus? That we dont have it so bad.

Maybe parents should be educated that its bad enough in our community so that they can realize the signs and symptoms before they find their child passed out or c'v otherwise.

Yes maybe yeshivas (high school) should teach about drugs and alcohol. Its a parents job to teach a kid what is appropriate and what is not in the realm of sexual abuse. I know i've taught my kids what is appropriate touching and what is unacceptable. I would propose kallah teachers and those teaching chasanim to teach their students about sex addiction signs and symptoms and to reinforce the drugs and alcohol lessons which should be taught in yeshivas.

Lift the veil of secrecy a bit.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:46:44 PM

Educate them about what? Anyone taking them knows how dangerous they are. By the time they are at the stage of drugs they are quite exposed to the world at large.
Really?

When you have your first joint, you know how dangerous heroin is? You're not thinking about heroin. Youre thinking about Carlebach or Rav Nachman.

When your husband comes home and sexually abuses you because, hey you're married and its allowed, will you know that its inappropriate and part of his addiction?

When you go with the chevra to Atlantic City "for fun" and you cant stop thinking about that trip and when you will be going back and how you can get money when you have none do you know you're an addict. Will your loved ones know when you "borrow" money "for a week" that its not your next paycheck you're waiting for.

I dont want to make this personal but the bold statment makes me sense extreme naivete. How many teanagers are doing drugs and not exposed at all to the dangers of overdosing and only want a higher high??
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 01:49:48 PM
Really?

When you have your first joint, you know how dangerous heroin is? You're not thinking about heroin. Youre thinking about Carlebach or Rav Nachman.

When your husband comes home and sexually abuses you because, hey you're married and its allowed, will you know that its inappropriate and part of his addiction?

When you go with the chevra to Atlantic City "for fun" and you cant stop thinking about that trip and when you will be going back and how you can get money when you have none do you know you're an addict. Will your loved ones know when you "borrow" money "for a week" that its not your next paycheck you're waiting for.

I dont want to make this personal but I sense extreme naivete.
What percentage would you think of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on September 06, 2016, 01:53:38 PM
What percentage would you think of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?


ZERO
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:55:22 PM
What percentage of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?
What percentage of yeshiva bochrim are doing pot on a regular basis and think its harmless. What percentage of yeshiva bochrim are gambling (legally and illegally) and know its bad for them in the long run?

There is a dearth of education on addiction in our community. On the parental level, the yeshiva/girl school level and on the level of the children themselves.

e.g. Telling a kid that a cardplayer is posul l'eidus will not stop him. Taking him to jail to visit an incarcerated compulsive gambler, may. We need to get a bit more graphic. Make it real. It's not a theoretical shtikel R' Chaim.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on September 06, 2016, 01:56:12 PM
What percentage would you think of people are not aware of the health risks when they start using drugs?
I think a high percentage are not fully aware.
If you ask someone smoking their first joint if heroin is bad they will of course know that it is, yet they have no understanding that they just took the first step towards that deadly addiction.
I remember speaking to someone who told me he does everything except opiates bc "that stuff is too dangerous" one week later he was tested and opiates were found in his system. I asked him I thought u don't do opiates and he answered me "when I'm f+%ked up I'll do anything"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shulem92 on September 06, 2016, 01:57:30 PM
were you located? but the results are deff ther and not based on my history.  http://isearchfrom.com/
Probably based on location not history
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on September 06, 2016, 01:58:31 PM
From what I understand in the last two three years the amount of guys in yeshiva's in Israel smoking weed (I'm talking yeshiva's like the Mir ) has gotten way out of control. Used to be only guys on the fringe were smoking and it was very hush hush.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 01:58:45 PM
I think a high percentage are not fully aware.
If you ask someone smoking their first joint if heroin is bad they will of course know that it is, yet they have no understanding that they just took the first step towards that deadly addiction.
I remember speaking to someone who told me he does everything except opiates bc "that stuff is too dangerous" one week later he was tested and opiates were found in his system. I asked him I thought u don't do opiates and he answered me "when I'm f+%ked up I'll do anything"
Finally some sanity!!!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 01:59:56 PM
Probably based on location not history
missing a word..
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:00:04 PM
From what I understand in the last two three years the amount of guys in yeshiva's in Israel Brooklyn, Monsey, Lakewood, Connecticut [Insert your town here] smoking weed (I'm talking yeshiva's like the Mir ) has gotten way out of control. Used to be only guys on the fringe were smoking and it was very hush hush.
FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on September 06, 2016, 02:01:50 PM
FTFY
True. It's just on a bigger scale in Israel as it's the first time many guys are away from parents and in a yeshiva that has no oversight. Obviously this is happening in America as well
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:03:51 PM
FTFY
No one dies from it. Not a major concern. Deadly drugs and sexually abuse are a bigger concern
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:07:58 PM
No one dies from it. Not a major concern.
Is that how you justify using?

Point proven. You're just plain uneducated.

Afellow I know said that too. He's a pot head. He was out with his friends in July and they gave him some pot. They didnt tell him it was synthetic pot (K2). He ended up in the ICU for 8 days and now has lingering heart issues that he may carry for the rest of his life. Its a gateway drug at best and almost killed this guy.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:11:42 PM
Is that how you justify using?

Point proven. You're just plain uneducated.

Afellow I know said that too. He's a pot head. He was out with his friends in July and they gave him some pot. They didnt tell him it was synthetic pot (K2). He ended up in the ICU for 8 days and now has lingering heart issues that he may carry for the rest of his life. Its a gateway drug at best and almost killed this guy.
Please... someone lied to him nothing to do with taking drugs. Same thing could have happened with Advil (though less likely)

Without any proof i would assume most pot smokers have never taken any other drugs
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on September 06, 2016, 02:14:14 PM
It's the mentality that is dangerous. if weed is more acceptable in our community occasionally then there will be more ppl who smoke weed regularly if there are more ppl who smoke regularly there will naturally be more that turn to other drugs. It's hard to believe it's a coincidence that the marijuana problem in our communities has gotten bigger at the same time as dependencies on more severe drugs
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:17:09 PM
It's the mentality that is dangerous. if weed is more acceptable in our community occasionally then there will be more ppl who smoke weed regularly if there are more ppl who smoke regularly there will naturally be more that turn to other drugs. It's hard to believe it's a coincidence that the marijuana problem in our communities has gotten bigger at the same time as dependencies on more severe drugs
If you are saying its a gateway drug? It has not been proven. I would say over 50% of my friends smoke weed and no one takes any pills.

We should stop drinking grape juice/ more likely to start drinking/ which is then more likely to start drinking scotch / more likely to become an alcoholic
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:17:37 PM
Please... someone lied to him nothing to do with taking drugs. Same thing could have happened with Advil (though less likely)

Without any proof i would assume most pot smokers have never taken any other drugs
Pot, is pot, is pot. No one lied to him. It was pot. Same thing could NOT have happened with advil. What are you talking about?

Seems like you're trying to justify pot use as not so bad. Thats fair because in the crazy world we live in it is legal in certain places. So who am I to say its a gateway for frum people who have never been exposed to drugs and leads them to try other stuff, abuse alcohol, slack off from responsibilities, etc. Just a casual observer i guess. Or I'm assuming stuff like you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
Pot, is pot, is pot. No one lied to him. It was pot. Same thing could NOT have happened with advil. What are you talking about?

Seems like you're trying to justify pot use as not so bad. Thats fair because in the crazy world we live in it is legal in certain places. So who am I to say its a gateway for frum people who have never been exposed to drugs and leads them to try other stuff, abuse alcohol, slack off from responsibilities, etc. Just a casual observer i guess. Or I'm assuming stuff like you.

he took laced pot. He could have taken laced anything
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:20:07 PM
If you are saying its a gateway drug? It has not been proven. I would say over 50% of my friends smoke weed and no one takes any pills.YET

We should stop drinking grape juice/ more likely to start drinking/ which is then more likely to start drinking scotch / more likely to become an alcoholic
FTFY

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 02:20:57 PM
Incognito. DDF effect?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:21:40 PM
Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education. 
You are going the wrong way. Just because a drug addict cant drink grape juice. Doesnt mean if you drink grape juice you will become addicted
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:22:57 PM
You are going the wrong way. Just because a drug addict cant drink grape juice. Doesnt mean if you drink grape juice you will become addicted
Huh?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 06, 2016, 02:24:11 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/5c92e5f56ab005b04f79f262d7f1a8c7.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/5693c5ca218c4a4a443b7bc9581f8de1.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/5b21401de29aa78ff9197426c460dd8a.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/7752b79edcfc4182cdcec119de229a90.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
FTFY

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education. 
FTFY

Yes I'm saying for the frum oilem its a gateway drug as it has become acceptable. And if you have any idea about addiction you would know that recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road. Just more proof of your lack of education. 
We are almost 30. So when do you think we will start?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:32:18 PM
Incognito. DDF effect?
Pretty sad. We are only 0.02% of the population
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:36:22 PM
We are almost 30. So when do you think we will start?
As suspected. Almost 30. Is that somewhere between 16 and 29? Your naiveté and false bravado betrayed your youth, way before you confirmed it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:39:05 PM
You are not making yourself look intelligent, unfortunately.
Don't need to
As suspected. Almost 30. Is that somewhere between 16 and 29? Your naiveté and false bravado betrayed your youth, way before you confirmed it.
So you think if I was smoking pot for 12 years.  I'm going  to start taking pills now?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on September 06, 2016, 02:42:47 PM
He wants you to say that it's ok to smoke pot. No, he shouldn't say it. You are f***d up for doing it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:43:01 PM
Don't need to So you think if I was smoking pot for 12 years.  I'm going  to start taking pills now?
and Pot is 100% not a gateway drug
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yakrot on September 06, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
Don't need to So you think if I was smoking pot for 12 years.  I'm going  to start taking pills now?
In all your years you never met ppl who graduated to more serious drugs? Be in shrooms, the occasional perc, or some ambient?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:44:08 PM
He wants you to say that it's ok to smoke pot. No, he shouldn't say it. You are f***d up for doing it.
weed is not addictive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:45:08 PM
In all your years you never met ppl who graduated to more serious drugs? Be in shrooms, the occasional perc, or some ambient?
Of course i have. But in most cases i dont think the weed had anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 02:45:32 PM
recovering alcoholics do not drink grape juice because it can lead them down that road.
Never heard of that before.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 06, 2016, 02:47:11 PM
IMO, It's more about the age than the drug.

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.
People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.
When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:49:21 PM
IMO, It's more about the age than the drug.

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.
People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.
When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).
I think we first need to accept the fact the we have a major issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 02:51:57 PM
He wants you to say that it's ok to smoke pot. No, he shouldn't say it. You are f***d up for doing it.
Lets ask this question...why do you smoke pot? Besides that it makes you feel good. There are 100 different ways to make yourself feel good, why pot?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 06, 2016, 02:54:01 PM
IMO, It's more about the age than the drug.

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.
People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.
When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

accepted, now what will you do that your son/daughter will hold back from starting to smoke? (referring to reg tobacco as well?)
''people have a right'' are you serious? so let it happen?? why not educate how harmful all the above are?   
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 06, 2016, 02:55:04 PM
Lets ask this question...why do you smoke pot? Besides that it makes you feel good. There are 100 different ways to make yourself feel good, why pot?

what a question, maybe POTUS should ask the U.S. Nation this question maybe all drugs will vanish...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 02:55:18 PM
Lets ask this question...why do you smoke pot? Besides that it makes you feel good. There are 100 different ways to make yourself feel good, why pot?
Want to relax for 2 hours after a long day of work sometimes. I have been smoking more recently due to an injury rather then using the pills my dr prescribed
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 02:57:10 PM
what a question, maybe POTUS should ask the U.S. Nation this question maybe all drugs will vanish...
Heroin use is at a 20-year high in the US.

In suburban and rural areas and among the white middle/upper class population its probably an all-time high.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 02:57:49 PM
Pretty sad. We are only 0.02% of the population
I don't think how often the term is searched for is in any way indicative of how prevalent the problem is.


Look at how in five minutes it moved up from  #3 to #1. I doubt the problem got that much worse in the last five minutes.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 06, 2016, 02:59:49 PM
accepted, now what will you do that your son/daughter will hold back from starting to smoke? (referring to reg tobacco as well?)
''people have a right'' are you serious? so let it happen?? why not educate how harmful all the above are?
Cigarettes have been around for years. How are we doing with educating people about that?

Face facts, that education doesn't trump what people see in the world.

Peer pressure is extremely harmful and no amount of yelling will help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:01:14 PM
I don't think how often the term is searched for is in any way indicative of how prevalent the problem is.


Look at how in five minutes it moved up three spots. I doubt the problem got that much worse in the last five minutes.
F
I don't think how often the term is searched for is in any way indicative of how prevalent the problem is.


Look at how in five minutes it moved up three spots. I doubt the problem got that much worse in the last five minutes.
for me its in the same spot. I think in some/ way its indicative of how prevalent the problem is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 06, 2016, 03:02:08 PM
Lets ask this question...why do you smoke pot? Besides that it makes you feel good. There are 100 different ways to make yourself feel good, why pot?
what a question, maybe POTUS should ask the U.S. Nation this question maybe all drugs will vanish...
And lets say he wants to do all those 100 things, including drugs. Now what?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
Cigarettes have been around for years. How are we doing with educating people about that?

Face facts, that education doesn't trump what people see in the world.

Peer pressure is extremely harmful and no amount of yelling will help.
Cigarettes  are alot different then drugs
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 06, 2016, 03:03:09 PM
Pretty sad. We are only 0.02% of the population
So according to your logic (or ignorance), aliens actually exist...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:03:12 PM
F for me its in the same spot. I think in some/ way its indicative of how prevalent the problem is.
It's indicitave, perhaps, of how often the term is searched for.

How often the term is searched for is causes by many factors.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:04:02 PM
So according to your logic (or ignorance), aliens actually exist...
Lol
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
Cigarettes have been around for years. How are we doing with educating people about that?

By all accounts we are moving in the right direction.

Cigarette smoking levels have been cut by about 50% over the last 25 years and continue to decrease year over year.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/

(http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/images/trends-2016.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 06, 2016, 03:04:39 PM
Cigarettes  are alot different then drugs
Substance is substance.

lol. By saying that, you discount your argument that weed isn't as bad as heroin.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:07:19 PM
Substance is substance.

lol. By saying that you discount your argument that weed isn't as bad as heroin.
You take heroin once you are addicted for life not so with weed. With Cigarette  you are given a chance to stop.  heroin you fall so low so fast.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:09:00 PM
So according to your logic (or ignorance), aliens actually exist...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 03:09:25 PM
You take heroin once you are addicted for life
-1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 06, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
By all accounts we are moving in the right direction.

Cigarette smoking levels have been cut by about 50% over the last 25 years and continue to decrease year over year.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/

(http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/images/trends-2016.jpg)

And if that statistic is true in the Jewish communities, then lets use the same education on drugs.

But, I grew up in religious schools and only got one speech in 7th grade about the harmful effects of smoking.

And we can generalize and say that certain sects of jews are handling this issue better than others.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:16:30 PM
And if that statistic is true in the Jewish communities, then lets use the same education on drugs.

But, I grew up in religious schools and only got one speech in 7th grade about the harmful effects of smoking.

And we can generalize and say that certain sects of jews are handling this issue better than others.
I think we should understand why smoking went down over 50%?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:18:34 PM
It's indicitave, perhaps, of how often the term is searched for.

How often the term is searched for is causes by many factors.
Why do you think its searched for so often?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:20:09 PM
Why do you think its searched for so often?
Because it's been discussed so much, and because we care so much (which is why it's been discussed so much).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:21:26 PM
Because it's been discussed so much, and because we care so much (which is why it's been discussed so much).

lol
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:23:01 PM
This discussion about drugs should be left to those who know what they are talking about like Freddie and I.  :P

Since when does pot lead to heroin?
Would you rather have your kid smoking pot or drinking alcohol? What do you think is easier to kick the habit?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:23:16 PM
lol
We also eat a lot of gefilte fish, but I'll bet it's not searched for as often as drug abuse is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 06, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
BTW a frum girl died today from an OD.........
I think that's why the discussion resumed.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:26:54 PM
This discussion about drugs should be left to those who know what they are talking about like Freddie and I.  :P

Since when does pot lead to heroin?
Would you rather have your kid smoking pot or drinking alcohol? What do you think is easier to kick the habit?
Good question. I think the answer to the 1st questions is most parents would rather ther kids drink. 2nd questions. Pot
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:31:12 PM
Good question. I think the answer to the 1st questions is most parents would rather ther kids drink. 2nd questions. Pot
I would agree with you and IMHO most don't understand drugs and addictions is why they would say that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 03:32:39 PM
This discussion about drugs should be left to those who know what they are talking about like Freddie and I.  :P

Since when does pot lead to heroin?
Would you rather have your kid smoking pot or drinking alcohol? What do you think is easier to kick the habit?
A drinking habit is much harder to kick than a pot smoking habit. Nobody has every died from pot withdrawal.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:36:07 PM
A drinking habit is much harder to kick than a pot smoking habit. Nobody has every died from pot withdrawal.
Also someone wasted on alcohol can't function. Someone high might not even be noticed. Anyone ever notice I was high at any of the DO's?  :P
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on September 06, 2016, 03:40:48 PM


. Anyone ever notice I was high at any of the DO's? 

They were also high.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shulem92 on September 06, 2016, 03:41:08 PM
Pretty sad. We are only 0.02% of the population
It already went up a notch, it goes by searches. If it went up after a couple ddfers searched it, it is quite obviously because of this issue being discussed. Don't see why that's sad. If u get the whole ddf to search for something random it'll also make it to the top of the suggested list...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 03:41:19 PM
Also someone wasted on alcohol can't function. Someone high might not even be noticed. Anyone ever notice I was high at any of the DO's?  :P
As opposed to every time youre on here?  ;D
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Freddie on September 06, 2016, 03:42:33 PM
Also someone wasted on alcohol can't function. Someone high might not even be noticed. Anyone ever notice I was high at any of the DO's?  :P

Puff puff pass. Don't forget the pass.

Or did you pass to CM who passed to CV who passed to HM? That would explain a lot.
Puff puff pass. Don't forget the pass.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:43:47 PM
It already went up a notch, it goes by searches. If it went up after a couple ddfers searched it, it is quite obviously because of this issue being discussed. Don't see why that's sad. If u get the whole ddf to search for something random it'll also make it to the top of the suggested list...
No way if you get everyone on ddf to search for something it will jump to the top of the list. Billions of people use Google
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 03:46:17 PM
A drinking habit is much harder to kick than a pot smoking habit. Nobody has every died from pot withdrawal.
Smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin. Nobody has died from that either. So your point is...?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:48:25 PM
Smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin. Nobody has died from that either. So your point is...?
Smoking habit is harder to kick then heroin?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:49:01 PM
As opposed to every time youre on here?  ;D
How else would I put up with this nonsense?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 03:49:12 PM
Smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin.
Dont believe everything you read.


So your point is...?
That alcohol abuse is worse than pot.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shulem92 on September 06, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
No way if you get everyone on ddf to search for something it will jump to the top of the list. Billions of people use Google
If u get everyone to search something specific. For instance being that ur so concerned about the search phrase "drug abuse in the Jewish community", how about everyone search for "drug abuse in the USA" we can turn this around in the next half hour guys and then @ya won't be so sad...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 06, 2016, 03:52:13 PM
Drugs have a stigma in our community that simply doesn't exist with alcohol. Alcohol in moderation is wholeheartedly accepted almost universally. Drugs, including marijuana, is basically taboo.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:53:08 PM
Drugs have a stigma in our community that simply doesn't exist with alcohol. Alcohol in moderation is wholeheartedly accepted almost universally. Drugs, including marijuana, is basically taboo.
True but that doesnt make it worse because it has a stigma.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:54:39 PM
Drugs are a serious issue. First you need to educate the parents what to look for because the problem is already here. Then you need to educate the kids on all fronts. Home, school, sports or whenever there is a opportunity.

You also need to debunk the myths like kids that smoke pot are 100 times more likely to use heroine. Correlation isn’t cause!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 03:55:20 PM
Drugs have a stigma in our community that simply doesn't exist with alcohol. Alcohol in moderation is wholeheartedly accepted almost universally. Drugs, including marijuana, is basically taboo.
That is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 06, 2016, 03:56:53 PM


IMO, It's more about the age than the drug.

There are substances that are legal to use. That's a fact.
People (the general public) have a right to do whatever they want to themselves, whether it helps or harms them (cigarettes, drugs, cutting, suicide).

As a Jew, one has an obligation to live, to not harm themselves.
When a jew gets a religious depression they turn to rebelling, whether public (change of friends and religious affiliation) or private (substances and religious observance).

If the jewish community come out against drugs full force they will only further the gap (case in point: Internet).

Rather let's accept the facts that substances exist and are accessible to all, but focus only having these questions with 20+ yr olds (which substances doesn't have great harm) rather than with 15 yr olds (where substances have a great harm).

IOW its more about the  why than the what.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 03:57:32 PM
Smoking habit is harder to kick then heroin?
Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 06, 2016, 03:58:23 PM
That is part of the problem.

It is a huge problem. I think if you'd take a survey if parents think medium alcohol or mild marijuana use (for a high schooler) is worse, you'd get very different results from the Jewish community than American society at large.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 03:59:40 PM
Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.
I find that hard to believe. Show me a source please. I stopped smoking though i never touched heroin.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 04:04:33 PM
I think we are off the rails here. Education regarding addiction is what is lacking. We all know that drug and alcohol use by a non-addict in moderatiom is ok. Education of parents and children on recognizing the signs and symptoms and the treatments and help that are available to addicts is sorely needed.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 04:07:37 PM
I find that hard to believe. Show me a source please. I stopped smoking though i never touched heroin.
You stopped smoking cigarettes and you smoke pot. How long have you stopped for. And who said that you touched heroin. Im saying the difficulty of quitting is comparable or harder than quitting heroin. I too have quit smoking, multiple times. Im on year 4 without cigarettes or any other tobbaco or e-cig and i want one every day.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 04:08:04 PM
I think we are off the rails here. Education regarding addiction is what is lacking. We all know that drug and alcohol use by a non-addict in moderatiom is ok. Education of parents and children on recognizing the signs and symptoms and the treatments and help that are available to addicts is sorely needed.
Lets not forget an important issue is why they are turning to alcohol/drugs?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 04:08:42 PM
You stopped smoking cigarettes and you smoke pot. How long have you stopped for. And who said that you touched heroin. Im saying the difficulty of quitting is comparable or harder than quitting heroin. I too have quit smoking, multiple times. Im on year 4 without cigarettes or any other tobbaco or e-cig and i want one every day.
I smoked for 5 years a pack a day. Haven't touched a Cig in 4 years
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 04:09:10 PM
Lets not forget an important issue is why they are turning to alcohol/drugs?
Sexual abuse
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 04:09:33 PM
I smoked for 5 years a pack a day. Haven't touched a Cig in 4 years
That is great. Were you able to quit the first time?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 04:10:26 PM
Sexual abuse
There are many reasons and no need to single that out unless you want a full blown PC thread.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 06, 2016, 04:11:22 PM
That is great. Were you able to quit the first time?
Yes it was during the winter.  We're it's painful to smoke. (freezing outside)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 04:13:04 PM
Lets not forget an important issue is why they are turning to alcohol/drugs?
Because they want to escape whatever their reality is. Because they are uneducated about the danger.
Sexual abuse
Drown pain
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 04:14:06 PM
Once again, you know nothing on this topic so please get lost. Yes, a smoking habit is more difficult to kick than a heroin habit. Ask any peraon who has tried atopping and any therapist you wish. Its damn hard.
I really dont want to go off on a tangent here as theyre both extremely difficult habits to stop. However, heroin has much more acute physical withdrawal symptoms.

The reason people say that cigarette smoking is harder to kick is due to the fact that you are (used to be) able to smoke anywhere. And they sell cigarettes everywhere. If a heroin addict stops using heroin and moves to a nice area where he doesnt associate with anyone using heroin he wont have to think about it every time he steps out on the street. However, someone who quits smoking will still have to smell it every time he walks down the street and see it in every gas station and convenience store he walks into.  Its also harder to mentally justify since most people havent lost their job or their spouse or their kids because they smoked cigarettes.

But just saying that a smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin is just plain incorrect.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 04:18:06 PM
I really dont want to go off on a tangent here as theyre both extremely difficult habits to stop. However, heroin has much more acute physical withdrawal symptoms.

The reason people say that cigarette smoking is harder to kick is due to the fact that you are (used to be) able to smoke anywhere. And they sell cigarettes everywhere. If a heroin addict stops using heroin and moves to a nice area where he doesnt associate with anyone using heroin he wont have to think about it every time he steps out on the street. However, someone who quits smoking will still have to smell it every time he walks down the street and see it in every gas station and convenience store he walks into.  Its also harder to mentally justify since most people havent lost their job or their spouse or their kids because they smoked cigarettes.

But just saying that a smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin is just plain incorrect.
Any mental health professional i have ever spoken with regarding this has compared the two and said cigarettes are harder for every reason you state. The ready availability and legal use trumps any physical symptoms that may occur with heroin withdrawal. There is no antidote to the ready availability of cigarettes. Also, the physical effects of smoking are not as readily apparent to a smoker.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 04:22:35 PM
But just saying that a smoking habit is harder to kick than heroin is just plain incorrect.
Heroin is more addictive but as a habit might be easier to kick. This has been debated forever.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on September 06, 2016, 04:23:00 PM
Any mental health professional i have ever spoken with regarding this has compared the two and said cigarettes are harder for every reason you state. The ready availability and legal use trumps any physical symptoms that may occur with heroin withdrawal. There is no antidote to the ready availability of cigarettes. Also, the physical effects of smoking are not as readily apparent to a smoker.
Heroin is more addictive but as a habit might be easier to kick. This has been debated forever.
Ask someone whos kicked both and see what they say.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 06, 2016, 04:24:09 PM
Ask someone whos quit both and see what they say.
Find a heroine addict that has been using for thirty years and I will.  ;)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Ask someone whos kicked both and see what they say.
Any volunteers?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 06, 2016, 04:28:53 PM
I quit smoking cigarettes and had it really easy since then (9 years now).
Never did heroin but I cannot fathom how the worlds most infamously addictive drug is considered less addictive than cigarettes.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Freddie on September 06, 2016, 05:00:23 PM
Find a heroine addict that has been using for thirty years and I will.  ;)

William Burroughs.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 06, 2016, 05:50:24 PM
Noone is taking into affect the massive damage to a heroin users cognitive and behavioral capacities, which then make it ever more harder to quit than nicotine.

Much harder for a half brain damaged individual to control an addiction than a normal person.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 05:59:27 PM
Bottom line, what will you do the next time you suspect someone you know/love/care about is an addict? Will you be able to recognize the early warning signs? Do you know where or to whom to turn to for proper advice and guidance?

Educate yourself. The next crop of addicts are already acting out in their addiction. Learn the signs now.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 06, 2016, 06:01:57 PM
Noone is taking into affect the massive damage to a heroin users cognitive and behavioral capacities, which then make it ever more harder to quit than nicotine.

Much harder for a half brain damaged individual to control an addiction than a normal person.
Ipcha mistabra. A normal person thinks hes "got it".
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 06, 2016, 07:45:20 PM
Bottom line, what will you do the next time you suspect someone you know/love/care about is an addict? Will you be able to recognize the early warning signs? Do you know where or to whom to turn to for proper advice and guidance?

Educate yourself. The next crop of addicts are already acting out in their addiction. Learn the signs now.
+10
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 12:16:16 AM
Educate yourself. The next crop of addicts are already acting out in their addiction. Learn the signs now.
Always check between the toes.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 06:27:55 AM
Always check between the toes.
...and under the nails.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mendy from lakewood on September 07, 2016, 07:46:58 AM
I quit smoking cigarettes and had it really easy since then (9 years now).
Never did heroin but I cannot fathom how the worlds most infamously addictive drug is considered less addictive than cigarettes.
i quit smoking 2 years ago and also had a relatively easy time since
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 07:47:50 AM
Smoking as a bochur doesn't really count.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 07, 2016, 07:53:48 AM
Smoking as a bochur doesn't really count.
Why not?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 08:01:31 AM
Smoking as a bochur doesn't really count.
+1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2016, 08:46:10 AM
Smoking as a bochur doesn't really count.

I'm sure if I did heroin as a bochur you would count it.
Hence, you'll be agreeing that heroin is far more addictive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 08:52:23 AM
I'm sure if I did heroin as a bochur you would count it.
Hence, you'll be agreeing that heroin is far more addictive.

No one is arguing that Heroin is not more addictive!!!

 Quitting smoking is definitely on par with quitting heroin. The withdrawal may not be the same but the difficulty of stopping is very similar.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 09:03:28 AM
I'm sure if I did heroin as a bochur you would count it.
Hence, you'll be agreeing that heroin is far more addictive.
The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

I don't profess to be knowledgeable about addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2016, 09:06:53 AM
The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

Now you're creating arbitrary lines to define addicted smokers.
Someone that smokes a pack daily for years is addicted.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2016, 09:07:43 AM
No one is arguing that Heroin is not more addictive!!!

 Quitting smoking is definitely on par with quitting heroin. The withdrawal may not be the same but the difficulty of stopping is very similar.

As the old adage goes- "quitting is easy, I've done it thousands of times!"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 07, 2016, 09:09:10 AM
No one is arguing that Heroin is not more addictive!!!

 Quitting smoking is definitely on par with quitting heroin. The withdrawal may not be the same but the difficulty of stopping is very similar.
U were a few pages back
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:12:50 AM
Now you're creating arbitrary lines to define addicted smokers.
Someone that smokes a pack daily for years is addicted.
Agreed. But it seems easier for bochurim to quit. I'd venture a guess that many bochurim who were addicted and "quit" easily, when they wanted, even for a few years, end up taking up smoking or another addiction at some point later in life.

Thats just my anecdotal observation.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:14:34 AM
U were a few pages back
I did not. I was talking about quitting all along. He's talking about getting hooked. Of course heroin is more potent, the high is better than anything a cigarette can ever give you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on September 07, 2016, 09:37:20 AM
Ok, enough with heroin discussion.
 What about all the pill poppers?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on September 07, 2016, 09:38:58 AM


The chemical addiction power from small time usage of heroin is definitely stronger than tobacco. That just speaks about how easy it to get addicted; it doesn't say anything about the ease of quitting once the addiction is there. I think the average bochur smoking has a lower chemical addiction and different league mental addiction than a real addicted smoker. They have no right to judge from their experience what quitting is like for an addicted smoker.

I don't profess to be knowledgeable about addiction.

I'm not sure how you established your (seemingly) arbitrary distinction of who is a real addicted smoker or not.just curious are you a current or former smoker?
No one can judge the ease or difficulty of someone else quiting their addiction. Its not a matter of sharing some general similarities like if their married or not. Genetics, personality and life experiences play a much larger role in addiction and a persons ability to quit.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 07, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
Ok, enough with heroin discussion.
 What about all the pill poppers?

in a certain way this is a bigger issue. Most people taking heroin know its wrong but for whatever reason take it anyway. Pills alot of guys get hooked on it when they take it after surgery or an injury etc.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:41:22 AM
Ok, enough with heroin discussion.
 What about all the pill poppers?
What about them? They're in "pain". So they dont have a problem either.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:42:46 AM
in a certain way this is a bigger issue. Most people taking heroin know its wrong but for whatever reason take it anyway. Pills Weed alot of guys get hooked on it when they take it after surgery or an injury etc.
FTFY according to what you said earlier.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 07, 2016, 09:45:29 AM
Always check between the toes.

...and under the nails.
For what?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on September 07, 2016, 09:50:30 AM
Addiction does not work the same way in all individuals.  Regarding cigarettes see this (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99690624).

Regarding heroin this (https://www.google.co.il/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiQ1NX8sv3OAhWIIMAKHVZaBOgQtwIINTAF&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dao8L-0nSYzg&usg=AFQjCNGozASHVJPu3bGOwQtVwLxSTsY6rw&sig2=qOlmr-1osDWYkYoyuZtNwQ&bvm=bv.131783435,d.ZGg).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 07, 2016, 09:51:12 AM
FTFY according to what you said earlier.
No - i said i took it after an injury. And was never hooked to it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:51:20 AM
For what?
Needle marks. Best places to hide drug use. Track marks on the arms and legs are too obvious. Seen teenagers try to hide their use between toes and under fingernails and toenails, especially polished nails. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 09:52:22 AM
No - i said i took it after an injury. And was never hooked to it.
You defend its use as if you are.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ya on September 07, 2016, 09:56:57 AM
You defend its use as if you are.
ok and your point?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Cheesecake on September 07, 2016, 09:58:15 AM
Needle marks. Best places to hide drug use. Track marks on the arms and legs are too obvious. Seen teenagers try to hide their use between toes and under fingernails and toenails, especially polished nails.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 10:01:33 AM
Ok, enough with heroin discussion.
 What about all the pill poppers?
You mean like LUDES? Paging Freddie!  :)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 10:09:15 AM
You mean like LUDES? Paging Freddie!  :)
Will you be getting all nostalgic about the acid you dropped and where you were on a certain weekend in the Summer of 69.  ;D :P
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 10:18:40 AM
Will you be getting all nostalgic about the acid you dropped and where you were on a certain weekend in the Summer of 69.  ;D :P
With a straight face I can say I never tried acid.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 10:22:55 AM
With a straight face I can say I never tried acid.
With a straight face i can say i never tried any drugs. Tobacco, yes. But never anything else. Had dreams of working for the Feds.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on September 07, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
Guys back to heroin for a minute it's simple to see which is easier to kick go to any methadone clinic and ask
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 10:27:26 AM
Guys back to heroin for a minute it's simple to see which is easier to kick go to any methadone clinic and ask
Please report back what they say.  :)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 10:27:37 AM


Agreed. But it seems easier for bochurim to quit. I'd venture a guess that many bochurim who were addicted and "quit" easily, when they wanted, even for a few years, end up taking up smoking or another addiction at some point later in life.

Thats just my anecdotal observation.

From my limited understanding and reading, it would seem that the psychological addiction is not as strong, because the user never intended to be doing it long term. Someone who cannot imagine life without cigarettes is going to have a harder time stopping than one who doesn't envision himself going through life with cigarettes. The psychological dependency seems to be less when one always planned on quitting before a predefined period. Most boys know that they're going to have to stop before getting married, and never plan or dream otherwise. This doesn't make stopping easy, but I think the dependency developes to a lesser degree. I am by no means an expert.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on September 07, 2016, 10:30:14 AM
Please report back what they say.  :)
The last person I spoke to was a grandmother still going to pick up her dolophine clean for over 30 years
But one thing I could say without dolophine she'd be dead
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 10:31:02 AM
Most boys know that they're going to have to stop before getting married...
Why is this? Now that I think of it I have never seen one of you smoke.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 07, 2016, 10:32:56 AM
whats the amount you consider addicted? (it sounds like you are all on a high)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 10:33:13 AM
Why is this? Now that I think of it I have never seen one of you smoke.
Societal norm, for the most part. A smoker is an automatic turn off for many on a potential marital partners profile.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 10:34:53 AM
whats the amount you consider addicted? (it sounds like you are all on a high)
Addiction is not a number. It is a condition which develops. For each person, it will be different, depending on many factors.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 10:36:04 AM
Please report back what they say.  :)
He wouldnt know where to find one if it was in his back yard.  ;D
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on September 07, 2016, 10:37:06 AM
He wouldnt know where to find one if it was in his back yard.  ;D
Sorry buddy on this your wrong
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2016, 10:43:24 AM

From my limited understanding and reading, it would seem that the psychological addiction is not as strong, because the user never intended to be doing it long term. Someone who cannot imagine life without cigarettes is going to have a harder time stopping than one who doesn't envision himself going through life with cigarettes. The psychological dependency seems to be less when one always planned on quitting before a predefined period. Most boys know that they're going to have to stop before getting married, and never plan or dream otherwise. This doesn't make stopping easy, but I think the dependency developes to a lesser degree. I am by no means an expert.

By that standard, heroin addiction is not real because no one plans on taking it long term.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 10:45:44 AM
Sorry buddy on this your wrong
If its only on this I'm ok.  ;D
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on September 07, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
By that standard, heroin addiction is not real because no one plans on taking it long term.
Do you understand the difference between chemical and psychological?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on September 07, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
If its only on this I'm ok.  ;D
Lol I'm to tired for this
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 07, 2016, 02:21:27 PM
A poem written by a friend of a (Frum) girl that OD'd (on Heroin) this week. Nebach.


Dear heroin,
This time I wont go to the funeral.
This time I wont hear how she was an angel that left us too soon.
This time I wont let myself feel.
If I allow myself to feel it will become too real.
This time I will get angry.
This time I will question.
I will make room for the anger in my heart.
It feels more comfortable in there than the truth.
The truth can't get me anywhere anyways.
What can you possibly tell me that can justify taking someone barely old enough to make decisions on her own?
You decided for her. You sealed her fate without her even having a say.
You whisked her away with the promise of a beautiful romance
You whispered words of comfort while slowly peeling her life away.
Why did you let her take you in her arms and hold you close
When all the while you intended on getting close enough to hurt her.
She turned to you as a heroine in her darkest moment, expecting you to save her like she was taught you would.
You blinded her with promises of momentary bliss
You deceived her with your innocent name
This time I wont go to the funeral.
This time I wont hear how she was an angel that left us too soon.
This time I wont let myself feel, feeling are overrated anyways.
Wasn't that your favorite part?
When you let her fall into a state of surrender,
completely numb and oblivious to her existence?
When you bribed her with a false sense of freedom...
...You always made the freedom look so beautiful.
Your name was spoken in the last 12 hours enough for a lifetime.
Enough to make up for all the names that go unmentioned, all those identities you strip.
Your name tastes like salt on my tongue.
Your name sounds like a curse out of hell.
Its ironic because we learn that you save the day.
I knew your name as someone I can look up to.
I wanted to be just like you.
Growing up you end up learning that sometimes the heroine isn't the savior
You didn't have any mercy, you usually don't. 
Oh the irony
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Mordyk on September 07, 2016, 02:24:53 PM
WOWOWOW!!! so powerful and sad
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on September 07, 2016, 02:50:34 PM
'

posted on?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 02:51:28 PM
I dont know what to think about this. Seems too similar to that OTD video.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 07, 2016, 03:09:19 PM
posted on?
FB
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 07, 2016, 03:10:11 PM
I dont know what to think about this. Seems too similar to that OTD video.
I fail to see the similarities. I saw this this as being strictly about Heroin, not people.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 07, 2016, 03:21:23 PM
I fail to see the similarities. I saw this this as being strictly about Heroin, not people.
I was never good at deciphering poetry so please enlighten me as to the message here.
Isbit an Ode to the fallacies of heroin's promises?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 07, 2016, 03:26:41 PM
I was never good at deciphering poetry so please enlighten me as to the message here.
Isbit an Ode to the fallacies of heroin's promises?
I don't believe she was trying to convey any particular potent message.
Just voicing her unfathomable grief and frustration.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 07, 2016, 03:28:13 PM


Isbit an Ode to the fallacies of heroin's promises?
That's how I took it.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on September 08, 2016, 09:30:04 AM
This is why I'm not into poetry.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 10:14:26 AM
This is why I'm not into poetry.
+1
All this "poem" tells me is that the writer couldn't tell the difference between "heroine" and "heroin". Everyone knows that. I'm still stumped as to its meaning other than channelling sorrow in an art form...with little substance. In my first reading it was just words words words words. And thats why it reminded me of that OTD video where the gentleman was "just saying". In other words...words words words words. No action.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 08, 2016, 10:17:50 AM
+1
All this "poem" tells me is that the writer couldn't tell the difference between "heroine" and "heroin".

I think you need to reread it
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChAiM'l on September 08, 2016, 10:19:47 AM
I think you need to reread it
He's right. In the original, it is spelled "heroine". Seems like she thinks they are spelled and pronounced the same and her poem is based on that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 08, 2016, 10:20:41 AM
Maybe she is just trying to say how addictive and horrific heroin is. Maybe she is just trying to make more aware of this problem. Maybe she has seen this all to often and does not know where to turn.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 10:22:03 AM
I think you need to reread it
Its a form of expression thats open to interpretation.

Thats what i got when I read it.  can reread it all day long. It does not tell ME anything more than I have written.

So please share what you've gotten from it. Or dont.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 10:23:38 AM
Maybe she is just trying to say how addictive and horrific heroin is. Maybe she is just trying to make more aware of this problem. Maybe she has seen this all to often and does not know where to turn.
I think you need to reread it
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 10:25:51 AM
He's right. In the original, it is spelled "heroine". Seems like she thinks they are spelled and pronounced the same and her poem is based on that.
+1

And the naiveté of that misconception is the basis for not appreciating the dangers of the drug.

This is actually very constructive and instructive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on September 08, 2016, 10:40:11 AM
I don't believe she was trying to convey any particular potent message.
Just voicing her unfathomable grief and frustration.
I was never good at deciphering poetry so please enlighten me as to the message here.
Isbit an Ode to the fallacies of heroin's promises?
That's how I took it.


I think you need to reread it
He's right. In the original, it is spelled "heroine". Seems like she thinks they are spelled and pronounced the same and her poem is based on that.
Its a form of expression thats open to interpretation.

Thats what i got when I read it.  can reread it all day long. It does not tell ME anything more than I have written.

So please share what you've gotten from it. Or dont.
+1

And the naiveté of that misconception is the basis for not appreciating the dangers of the drug.

This is actually very constructive and instructive.
This is why I'm not into poetry.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 08, 2016, 10:43:11 AM
He's right. In the original, it is spelled "heroine". Seems like she thinks they are spelled and pronounced the same and her poem is based on that.

She spelled it both ways.
Sorry but you need to read it again if you can't understand how she uses it as a double entendre.

Maybe there's nothing good that comes out of reading the poem but if it made her feel a little better than good for her.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 10:47:27 AM
She spelled it both ways.
Sorry but you need to read it again if you can't understand how she uses it as a double entendre.

Maybe there's nothing good that comes out of reading the poem but if it made her feel a little better than good for her.
Conflation is not Double entendre

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 08, 2016, 10:57:52 AM
Conflation is not Double entendre

She didn't conflate anything. Everything was used correctly.
Point to one part where it was conflated.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on September 08, 2016, 11:22:13 AM
@hvaces42

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

Hope that makes some sense no time to look over what I wrote atm.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on September 08, 2016, 11:25:27 AM
@hvaces42

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

Hope that makes some sense no time to look over what I wrote atm.

Well said and FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on September 08, 2016, 11:27:05 AM
Hope that makes some sense no time to look over what I wrote atm.
Words words words.  :P

Of course it makes sense.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on September 08, 2016, 11:29:58 AM
@hvaces42

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

Hope that makes some sense no time to look over what I wrote atm.
I was never good at deciphering poetry so please enlighten me as to the message here.
Isbit an Ode to the fallacies of heroin's promises?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JayR on September 08, 2016, 12:05:29 PM
Maybe she is just trying to say how addictive and horrific heroin is. Maybe she is just trying to make more aware of this problem. Maybe she has seen this all to often and does not know where to turn.
+1000
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on September 08, 2016, 12:31:27 PM
@hvaces42

If you don't get poetry than just say that, you are sounding really silly to me.

It's a beautiful poem, and yes I love poetry so maybe I'm biased. The beauty is that is is open to interpretation and allows the reader to take it to heart or not depending on how they read it and understand it, it can be much more powerful than a simply stated idea.

Before I give my interpretation I just want to say that I don't understand how you can say words words words when the main call for action that you are suggesting here is education, and how exactly is education done? "Words words words."

Words are one of the most powerful forces in the world, you will never get anywhere without using them, insulting them doesn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway with that said the poem to me is coming from a girl who is living in a similar situation, the author had a tough childhood with no one to look up to. She is an adult now and can do what she wants, many of her friends from similar backgrounds take heroin and claim that it saved them and changed their life from miserable to wonderful. Yet she has held off the easy path and been working hard to avoid it.

Being that she never had a good role model to look up to she and her friends see heroin as a heroine that can take them out of their sad life and make them instantly happy.

After a few friends being killed from heroin she is realizing it's not time to blame the person or say how good a person they were, it's time to realize that heroin is no heroine at all but rather a filthy lying scumbag who just like an abusive husband, promises to give her the world but really all it does it destroy it.

I think for someone who was considering heroin this can be very educational and a good read.

Hope that makes some sense no time to look over what I wrote atm.
I appreciate the very eloquent interpretation. Thank you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on November 23, 2016, 08:30:01 PM
https://youtu.be/JTouQF5gqaM
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: jj1000 on November 29, 2016, 02:07:12 PM
I didn't read yet:

http://hevria.com/yocheved/addiction-doesnt-care-youre-frum/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 02:26:02 PM
I didn't read yet:

http://hevria.com/yocheved/addiction-doesnt-care-youre-frum/
I did.

Very well written and I totally agree.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
I did.

Very well written and I totally agree.
+1000

This topic is very near and dear to me.

Let's start with taking away the stigma of getting help. Whether it be from therapy (which is basically useless for addicts) to, rehab, to 12 step programs.

AA, NA, GA, SA are life saving programs which i am familiar with.  The most common "excuse" is "oh its held in a church". Go to church for heavens sake, just get help in stopping your addiction.

Addiction wreaks havoc on the addict, their family and ultimately on the community at large. We as frum people must accept that its a real issue and allow our addicts the time and space to recover.

There is real recovery out there. Most recovered addicts lead very successful fulfilling lives. There is hope.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on November 29, 2016, 04:20:01 PM
+1000

This topic is very near and dear to me.

Let's start with taking away the stigma of getting help. Whether it be from therapy (which is basically useless for addicts) to, rehab, to 12 step programs.

AA, NA, GA, SA are life saving programs which i am familiar with.  The most common "excuse" is "oh its held in a church". Go to church for heavens sake, just get help in stopping your addiction.

Addiction wreaks havoc on the addict, their family and ultimately on the community at large. We as frum people must accept that its a real issue and allow our addicts the time and space to recover.

There is real recovery out there. Most recovered addicts lead very successful fulfilling lives. There is hope.
How about for those that are uncomfortable going to churches to have it in a neutral setting where they are willing to go
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
How about for those that are uncomfortable going to churches to have it in a neutral setting where they are willing to go
1. Thats where the meetings are held.
2. If the stigma of going to meetings wouldnt be there then The frum community could set aside space for meetings in their public places.
3. An addict is never willing to go until it is usually late in the game and they have a lot on the line. So making them comfortable shouldnt be a high priority.
4. Do every sin in the book and them claim to be too frum to go to a church owned social hall is the height of hypocrisy.
5. The meetings are not held in the church sanctuary. They are usually held in ancillary facilities. If you need a heter to go there go ask your LOR. If he doesnt give it to you i will take your place in gehinom.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on November 29, 2016, 04:32:54 PM
1. Thats where the meetings are held.
2. If the stigma of going to meetings wouldnt be there then The frum community could set aside space for meetings in their public places.
3. An addict is never willing to go until it is usually late in the game and they have a lot on the line. So making them comfortable shouldnt be a high priority.
4. Do every sin in the book and them claim to be too frum to go to a church owned social hall is the height of hypocrisy.
5. The meetings are not held in the church sanctuary. They are usually held in ancillary facilities. If you need a heter to go there go ask your LOR. If he doesnt give it to you i will take your place in gehinom.
None of those really answered the issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:40:13 PM
One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 04:40:22 PM
None of those really answered the issue.
The issue is there are no meetings in frum places. I know of meetings in reform temples, community centers and shuls. They are not teeming with frum people either. So lets get real about the stigma thats placed on people that go to meetings. You can count on one hand the number of frum people at each meeting.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 04:44:28 PM
One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 04:45:28 PM
One important aspect that many people miss regarding these issues is contagion. We keep hearing over and over again how important awareness is, and in many ways it is true. On the other hand though, publicizing these issues has its own pitfalls. It has been shown that the more publicized a suicide is the more copycat cases there are. When there is a high profile celebrity suicide there has been shown to be a noticeable rise in the suicide rate. As such much care must be taken to not work so hard to fix the issue that it only gets made worse. This is a very fine line to toe. It would be a shame for people with the best intentions to help solve this issue to unknowing actually cause it to get worse.
What on earth are you talking about.

Publicizing the horrors of addiction causes copycats??

How in the world?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:45:36 PM
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201208/when-suicides-come-in-clusters
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/upshot/the-science-behind-suicide-contagion.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:46:03 PM
What on earth are you talking about.

Publicizing the horrors of addiction causes copycats??

How in the world?
It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 04:48:54 PM
How about for those that are uncomfortable going to churches to have it in a neutral setting where they are willing to go
Better go to a church than end up in a mental hospital, gutter or beis hachayim CV..

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:50:05 PM
So you say awareness may make the problem worse? I'm not a betting man but i would venture a guess that your position is just another excuse to sweep the issue under the rug. All i hear are excuses for not dealing with the issues instead of solutions to the issues.
I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on November 29, 2016, 04:50:21 PM
Better go to a church than end up in a mental hospital, gutter or beis hachayim CV..
I'm not arguing
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 29, 2016, 04:51:51 PM
I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.

You are talking about suicide, they are talking about addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 04:52:37 PM
It is proven science, but not the horrors of it rather the fact that there are those doing it. In our case more people knowing that there is an issue within the frum community can cause others within that community to follow suit.
Utterly ridiculous.
We don't publicize the beauty of drug addiction. There's absolutely nothing pretty about it.

The publication in the form of a body count or how to get help doesn't in any way shape or form lend increased cases of addiction.

I challenge you to even try to present a realistic scenereo of how this can happen.

 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:53:49 PM
You are talking about suicide, they are talking about addiction.
What is the difference between them?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 04:54:12 PM
Utterly ridiculous.
We don't publicize the beauty of drug addiction. There's absolutely nothing pretty about it.

The publication in the form of a body count or how to get help doesn't in any way shape or form lend increased cases of addiction.

I challenge you to even try to present a realistic scenereo of how this can happen.

 
Did you look at the links I posted above? There are many many more for both suicide and addiction as well as other destructive behaviors. These are real studies done by professionals who work with these things on a professional basis and were published in peer reviewed journals. That is certainly not torah misinai but that it doesn't make sense to the person sitting behind a keyboard or even someone involved who did not review the numbers is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 29, 2016, 05:12:43 PM
What is the difference between them?

Huh? One is an addiction to a substance and one is the taking of one's own life.

For instance, the incident referred to in the Hevria article was not a suicide, AFAIK.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 05:15:19 PM
Huh? One is an addiction to a substance and one is the taking of one's own life.

For instance, the incident referred to in the Hevria article was not a suicide, AFAIK.

Of course but the underlying science applies to and has been show to be true for any destructive action. By seeing that others do it makes it seem more acceptable to those on the brink.

Does the difference make a difference?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 29, 2016, 05:21:47 PM
Of course but the underlying science applies to any destructive action. By seeing that others do it makes it seem more acceptable to those on the brink.

I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 05:29:05 PM
The issue is there are no meetings in frum places.

-1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 05:29:11 PM
I'm at a loss as to why you are comparing suicide, which is more of an instantaneous thing, to addiction which is something that builds up over months and years. That's why guard rails on bridges and such protections reduce suicide rates - those "on the brink" will reconsider or get help given extra time. Addiction is not an "on the brink" issue.

No doubt copycat suicides exist, we saw it blatantly in our community a few years ago. That is a far cry from a young man reading about the horrors of addiction and thinking, hey, let me try that," and then getting hooked over the course of an extended period of time.
It has been shown to be true for addiction as well. It is not someone saying "hey let me do it too" it is that it becomes more acceptable in his mind by seeing that others do it. I will link to articles specifically about addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 05:55:28 PM
Not exactly what I was looking for but it is a start

https://jsmf.org/meetings/2008/july/social%20norms%20Cialdini.pdf
http://www.stes-apes.med.ulg.ac.be/Documents_electroniques/POP/POP-ADO/ELE%20POP-ADO%20A-8198.pdf
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 06:05:51 PM
Not exactly what I was looking for but it is a start

https://jsmf.org/meetings/2008/july/social%20norms%20Cialdini.pdf
http://www.stes-apes.med.ulg.ac.be/Documents_electroniques/POP/POP-ADO/ELE%20POP-ADO%20A-8198.pdf
OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 06:09:03 PM
OK, even if we accept that there may be some how, someone, who thinks that drug abuse is more acceptable due to the publication of its horrors. (For argument's sake ). Are you seriously going to argue that this miniscule theory is not overwhelmingly canceled out by the very logical, and realistic, and proven, and scientific fact - that awareness of the dangers, the risk factors, the treatment and help options available will most certainly save lives???
I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 06:25:07 PM
I am not saying that the issue not be dealt with rather that it be dealt with using EXTREME care and by people who are knowledgable enough about the potential consequences of what they are doing to avoid unintended pitfalls.
The only ones knowlegeable enough in our community are the recoving addicts themselves. Anyone else is unqualified. Rabbonim who dont allow addicts to go to meetings in churches are rotzchim. Therapists that advocate just therapy are being hoodwinked left and righy by addicts who's sole goal is to get over on people to get to the next fix.

Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 06:27:25 PM
-1
Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 06:42:21 PM
Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.
PM if you are truly interested.

A few more (that I know of) now that you widened the area outside NYC and didnt limit it to just shuls.

Im aware of places in 5 out of the 6 cities you mentioned that are either hosted by or geared towards the Jewish community.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 06:55:31 PM
Get over this EXTREME care crap and educate the community on the signs of addiction and the recovery aspects. 5% of people who go to GA stop for more than 5 years. Without meetings there is no hope that they would stop at all.
The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 07:08:12 PM
The two are not mutually exclusive. The community can be educated with it being done with extreme care. To do it carelessly and based on the emotions of recovering addicts as opposed to those who know hard numbers and studies of what the proper approach is to educate without exacerbating the issue makes no sense. Do it, but do it RIGHT. Doing it wrong can be counterproductive. We are not dealing with a case where doing the wrong thing is better than doing nothing.
I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 07:09:11 PM
I showed SCIENTIFIC STUDIES which showed the numbers as it being very real. What are you bringing to the table? Can you show any hard facts other than the claim they exist? On what basis do you call their study a miniscule theory and YOUR boich svara proven scientific fact?

You and your Google.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 07:24:03 PM
Read the lifelines story in last week's Ami Magazine.

No idea if it's true but it definitely could be...

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

A little awareness could have saved the situation.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 07:32:27 PM
I jist cant stand the pussyfooting. In 9th grade it was פתח פתוח. As an adult we call it something else. Extreme care, mameleh, tateleh, shefeleh talk creates a worse atmosphere then just saying it the way it is.
Who is talking about atmosphere? If all of the well meaning campaigns cause more people to become addicts than they help was it worth it?

You and your Google.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Parents being aware of the signs of drug abuse before it's out of hand is no boich sevara. It's simple basic common sense.

Not to mention the accepted opinion of every local professional in the field, the rosh yeshivas and many leading rabbonim in Lakewood is to bring as much awareness to the issue as possible.

You're the one digging up ridiculous studies, that have no connection to our community, the type of publicity, or the issue at hand.
My original source was not google. Google only helps if you know what to search for.

Of course it is important for parents to be aware. Of course there should be awareness. It simply needs to be done properly. There are ways to do it without the pitfalls. It can be publicized to parents and teachers without publicizing it to potential victims. The type of publicity the studies deal with is primarily publicity in the media and to the masses. Why is an article in The VOice different?  When someone sees that "there are hundreds of kids with this issue" it changes from being "we don't do that" to "some do that". It gives social acceptance. How can seeing someone do it give social acceptance to something a person knows that the vast majority are not doing? The psychologists have all sorts of science about it. The fact is that it exists enough that there is a noticeable rise in people killing themselves after a publicized suicide even though they now that most don't do that. After a murder/suicide there is a rise in multi-fatality car accidents. The numbers are there. Why do you insist on ignoring them baselessly? It is very easy for an askan to say how if there would be more publicity it would help based on it helping a specific aspect of a problem. In order to prevent unwanted and unintended side effects they need to be willing to listen to research others have done. This is no different than what you have in the past discussed about the Lakewood School Board. There may have been an issue with the previous askanim that needed to be resolved and it may or may not have been taken care of but there were harmful side effects. What is the point of ignoring science which can tell you how to avoid them? What do you have against making sure to do it right?

One of the methods discussed to prevent abuse is to create a reverse effect.

Again, please try to paint a realistic scenerio where an at risk person would use hard drugs due to this type of publicity. It's unfathomable. 
How do you expect to fathom the mindset of someone on the road to addiction? Can you fathom the mind of someone who killed himself and his whole family? The numbers show that publicity has an effect on them. Why would you ignore it? By doing so you are taking a big risk. Do you have the research to make that decision?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 07:34:48 PM
Read the lifelines story in last week's Ami Magazine.

No idea if it's true but it definitely could be...

Basically a young married kollel wife living in jlem was supposed to be looking out for her cousin in sem... Due to her pure heligeh, sheltered education, she missed all the signs that her cousin was using until it was very very late. - cash/items missing, behavior, etc etc.

A little awareness could have saved the situation.

Of course there are benefits to awareness and it is extremely important, but why do you insist on it being done carelessly? Get it done right and prevent killing one to save the other.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 07:41:43 PM
This is not an exact science. The benefits of awareness are great. The disadvantages of sticking our heads in the sand are even greater.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 08:05:45 PM
This is not an exact science. The benefits of awareness are great. The disadvantages of sticking our heads in the sand are even greater.
1000%
Therefore we should not sick or heads in the sand about the issue itself nor should we respond based on emotion ignoring real issues. We should do it right.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
1000%
Therefore we should not sick or heads in the sand about the issue itself nor should we respond based on emotion ignoring real issues. We should do it right.
Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 08:34:21 PM
@aygart, just fyi, there are plenty of adults at risk. Its not just 15 year olds...
Maybe we shouldn't publicize it though...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 08:39:18 PM
Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.
+1billion. It's obvious.

Though his real issue is that he feels that if good kids learn about drugs they are somewhat tainted. - I appreciate this sentiment. It is actually an integral part of our mahalach in chinuch, it's almost instinct. - protect the kids from seeing or learning about anything negative..

Il post why this is wrong later..
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 08:41:55 PM
@aygart, just fyi, there are plenty of adults at risk. Its not just 15 year olds...
Maybe we shouldn't publicize it though...
I am sure there are. I gave an illustration. There is a whole world out there where this is a bigger issue than in the frum community which has gone through the numbers and the facts to come up with real and effective methods. We would be better off learning from these than sticking our heads in the sand like you are and just saying emotional slogans to feel like we are doing something. Do something right instead of just doing something for the sake of doing it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 08:43:09 PM
Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.
Just the opposite. Your "doing something" is an excuse for not doing the right thing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 08:46:46 PM
Your "real issues" are really excuses not to deal with it head on.
Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 08:48:53 PM
Just the opposite. Your "doing something" is an excuse for not doing the right thing.
When you walk a mile in my shoes you can judge me.

I knew there was a reason i kept the signature. Youre almost there.

Please PM me your number so i can forward every call i get from people that are looking for my "excuse for not doing the right thing".
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 08:52:16 PM
Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.
The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 08:55:57 PM
Your "dealing with it head on" is an excuse not do deal with it properly and effectively with less risk.
Let's hear a constructive suggestion on how to "safely deal with it"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 08:59:46 PM
When you walk a mile in my shoes you can judge me.

I knew there was a reason i kept the signature. Youre almost there.

Please PM me your number so i can forward every call i get from people that are looking for my "excuse for not doing the right thing".
I am not judging you at all. I was trying to make a point that just because I said something should be done with care does not mean nothing should be done. The issue I brought up is real and to ignore it is just as much putting heads in the sand as to do nothing. It seems that you are involved in this issue and I respect you greatly for that. I cannot respect you for attacking me for simply saying that things need to be done with care. If I said it baselessly that would be one thing but these are real studies done by some very respected psychologists based on real numbers. Don't push them off saying that it means doing nothing. Use their advice to help people even more than you are already. That is all I am saying to do. If you have a tool why not use it?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:02:24 PM
The next time you get scammed by a ponzi schemer, gambler, thief, drug addict, sex addict, alcoholic etc. deal with it properly with less risk. Every one of these and then some are a direct product of not dealing with it head on. Only after it happens do we ask how it happened.
Sometimes they are a product of not dealing with it head on and sometimes they are not. Dealing head on doesn't have to mean ignoring real information out there. Take advantage of their work.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:04:28 PM
Let's hear a constructive suggestion on how to "safely deal with it"
I don't make any claim to have all the answers, but what is the point in ignoring the studies done by the outside world? What do you gain with that?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:07:16 PM
I don't make any claim to have all the answers, but what is the point in ignoring the studies done by the outside world? What do you gain with that?
I already answered that even if your studies were applicable, we still have a net benefit from bringing as much awareness as possible.

The danger of ignorance is greater than any potential risk of publicity. No doubt about it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:12:48 PM
I already answered that even if your studies were applicable, we still have a net benefit from bringing as much awareness as possible.

The danger of ignorance is greater than any potential risk of publicity. No doubt about it.
We can do even better by listening to chochmas hagoyim instead of jumping on anyone who says that maybe things can be improved.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on November 29, 2016, 09:14:02 PM
Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies  that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:14:37 PM
Cmiiw but I don't think @aygart is advocating against bringing awareness to the issues. His point was that we should do it in a systematic and evidence based approach. Btw i recall other studies  that came to a similiar conclusion regarding scare tactics having the opposite and negative impact.
Exactly
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
We can do even better by listening to chochmas hagoyim instead of jumping on anyone who says that maybe things can be improved.
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161130/28ad7f7275c29dd802877ee3b3c378e8.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on November 29, 2016, 09:25:01 PM
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161130/28ad7f7275c29dd802877ee3b3c378e8.jpg)
I agree education and awareness are key and desperately needed. There are diffrent ways to approach these goals is all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:26:21 PM
Any professional in this field Jewish or not, agrees that education is key.
This is the standard conventional wisdom. Here's a goyishe example.

This should be in the voice. Every single week!!

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161130/28ad7f7275c29dd802877ee3b3c378e8.jpg)
Absolutely. Tell them how horrible it is, but without saying there are tons of kids with the problem in the frum world.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:27:55 PM
I agree education and awareness are key and desperately needed. There are diffrent ways to approach these goals is all I'm saying.
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:30:47 PM
Absolutely. Tell them how horrible it is, but without saying there are tons of kids with the problem in the frum world.
But you also explain to kids exactly how they can actually be tempted, offered, pressured, enticed. -  By other frum kids and frum adult drug pushers within the community!!!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on November 29, 2016, 09:32:36 PM
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...
Not at all. Can't speak for "y'all" but  I've always been an advocate for spreading awareness.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:37:27 PM
Y'all just uncomfortable with this. You seem to be nitpicking excuses to avoid the topic. No one can articulate what's wrong.. it's more "ess past nisht" to publicly talk about such horrible things.

Not you personally, just a broad sentiment in the community...
When you have that attitude and attack when people say that a certain issue should be considered it prevents you from improving your methods. Robert Cialdini is a renowned expert in how people get influenced and the author of some of the most basic books on this matter. He was hired by the Obama campaign to hone their message to influence people. There are methods discussed in the papers I linked to which work on getting the best of all worlds. Don't attack me for saying they should be considered. There are ways to take them into consideration. AN example is how one should be careful when discussing it to focus on the horrors of addiction without focusing on whether or not it is prevelant. Can that be honed better? Probably. Instead of saying that improving means doing nothing lets get to know the right methods and help those who need it without drumming up more business.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:38:29 PM
But you also explain to kids exactly how they can actually be tempted, offered, pressured, enticed. -  By other frum kids and frum adult drug pushers within the community!!!

Yes, the message needs to be thought through very well before to have the best effect with the least risk, but my point is that within the message and the awareness it can be done in different ways and it is important to take aspect other than just the greatest shock and awe into account.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 09:42:29 PM
Let's hear a constructive suggestion on how to "safely deal with it"
More of this drivel
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-hold-rally-on-internet-at-citi-field.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on November 29, 2016, 09:47:07 PM
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:54:36 PM
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
I hear the concern and addressed it already.

Professionals and rabbonim have considered this angle and still approved of publicizing the prevalence within the community. It is a crucial piece of the picture.

You cant bring awareness and educate about an issue that many are under the impression that it doesn't exist!

Why would anyone care if it is not prevalent?

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:54:51 PM
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
I can't believe that what I wrote is even controversial.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 09:55:08 PM
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
Please explain how it can be done properly, without exposing kids to some of it. I dont advocate teaching sex ed or other things in school.

However, My Bar mitzvah age son's classmates are gambling on football games every week. Its small money...by our standards. But one out of 30 is bound to lose more than he can afford. This is in a mainstream brooklyn yeshivah. How do you not explain the dangers of compulsive gambling to 13 year olds.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 09:55:43 PM
I can't believe that what I wrote is even controversial.
Because youre in your own echo chamber.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 09:57:39 PM
I can't believe that what I wrote is even controversial.
You are advocating hiding the facts and statistics on drug abuse within our community.

Not controversial at all. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:58:19 PM
Because youre in your own echo chamber.
Except that there was nothing written here about the content of what I wrote only people accusing me of denying the issue and saying to do nothing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 09:59:08 PM
You are advocating hiding the facts and statistics on drug abuse within our community.

Not controversial at all. Unbelievable.
Hiding? No. Yelling from the rooftops? Maybe also not.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 10:01:03 PM
Except that there was nothing written here about the content of what I wrote only people accusing me of denying the issue and saying to do nothing.
Any content that advocates stifiling discussion of the issue due to [fill in the blank] is unbelievable.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:03:01 PM
Any content that advocates stifiling discussion of the issue due to [fill in the blank] is unbelievable.
If the message is harmful then it should be stifled. If not it should be continued and honed to make it be the best message possible.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 10:03:25 PM
Hiding? No. Yelling from the rooftops? Maybe also not.
קול דמי אחיך צועקים אלי
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 10:03:28 PM
Hiding? No. Yelling from the rooftops? Maybe also not.
Maybe not, maybe yes..

. Let's err on the side of caution and the side of professionals and yes yell.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 10:05:58 PM
If the message is harmful then it should be stifled. If not it should be continued and honed to make it be the best message possible.
So והיה מחניך קדוש trumps everything. Typical response. Everything falls under that heading. Every sick perverted frumkeit too.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:06:28 PM
Maybe not, maybe yes..

. Let's err on the side of caution and the side of professionals and yes yell.
Caution means not ignoring the professionals who bring out possible pitfalls as well.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 10:07:14 PM
If the message is harmful then it should be stifled. If not it should be continued and honed to make it be the best message possible.
Let's put this to rest. You don't know what you're talking about as far as actual facts on the ground.
Yes, you linked a few studies that are tangentially related. But due to the complexity and insularity of the community, your concerns are so minor, they pale in the face of the clear and present danger of dismissing the problem as almost not applicable to us.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
Caution means not ignoring the professionals who bring out possible pitfalls as well.
They are not ignored.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on November 29, 2016, 10:16:46 PM
I am not advocating not raising awareness and I would say yes scream from the rooftops just check with experts what to scream from the rooftops. Don't just come.out of yeshiva open an organization and start yelling whatever pops into your head as being right from the rooftops. That's all. I'm not sure if aygart is agreeing to me or not but certainly what I am saying is pashut and I assume you guys agree but are just bothered by the implication that maybe it's coming from an avoidance mentality
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Freddie on November 29, 2016, 10:21:53 PM
I think we need two separate threads on this. One for people who personally know people who have died and one for people who don't.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on November 29, 2016, 10:24:24 PM
I think we need two separate threads on this. One for people who personally know people who have died and one for people who don't.
And one for people who are or know and deal with addicts and one for people who have no clue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 10:27:59 PM
If you have seen my other comments on these topics here you would know that I am a hardcore advocate of awareness etc... however aygart is making one valid point and I am not sure you have to throw the kitchen sink at him for it. I remember reading that the "say no to drugs" campaign from the 90s that they spent.millions on was an epic failure.... so we definitely should be raising awareness and removing stigmas increasing funding and resources but certainly care should be taken to make sure it's done properly
It was Nancy Reagans "Just Say No" campaign. Amd for those of us who lived through that the whole thing was laughable even at the time. Just find some of those commercials. They were hilarious. And candy box tops used to say "Just Say No". Cuz that was gonna stop the cocaine superhighway of the 80s.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:31:37 PM
They are not ignored.
had you simply said this at the beginning instead of instinctively attacking me we could have saved this whole conversation.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:34:29 PM
I am not advocating not raising awareness and I would say yes scream from the rooftops just check with experts what to scream from the rooftops. Don't just come.out of yeshiva open an organization and start yelling whatever pops into your head as being right from the rooftops. That's all. I'm not sure if aygart is agreeing to me or not but certainly what I am saying is pashut and I assume you guys agree but are just bothered by the implication that maybe it's coming from an avoidance mentality
I am not disagreeing. Maybe scream maybe don't as long as you do it properly.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on November 29, 2016, 10:36:01 PM
I think we need two separate threads on this. One for people who personally know people who have died and one for people who don't.

And one for people who are or know and deal with addicts and one for people who have no clue.
And another thread for people who.make assumptions about other people's level of knowledge, experience and involvement in said issue
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 10:38:02 PM
had you simply said this at the beginning instead of instinctively attacking me we could have saved this whole conversation.
Alright
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on November 29, 2016, 10:38:09 PM
Disagree.

All are welcome.

The ones you will turn away need the most education on this issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 29, 2016, 10:38:38 PM
I think we need two separate threads on this. One for people who personally know people who have died and one for people who don't.
Oh boy. How much I like this post. ;)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:40:27 PM
And one for people who are or know and deal with addicts and one for people who have no clue.
Unfortunately I have seen people deal with other issues and consider themselves experts while really being harmful and having less of a clue than someone who spent a little time on Google. All I did was say that care must be taken due to something real which I came across. A simple we do or will take it into account or am I will look into it would have ended everything. Instead I was attacked. That is how a pro would react not to be so defensive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on November 29, 2016, 10:53:06 PM
Great so the articles ads events etc are done in a way which makes sure to avoid the pitfalls. How about the discussions about it on DDF? Dis everyone who yells let's bring awareness agonize over it?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 04, 2016, 03:55:40 AM
http://www.totpi.com/34222-2/

http://www.totpi.com/34224-2/

@havces42 there are at least a few Jewish orgs where I am that host regular meetings
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on December 04, 2016, 10:42:03 PM
Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.

I know of one in Brooklyn.
Makes me wonder if this is self-introspection:

And one for people who are or know and deal with addicts and one for people who have no clue.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 04, 2016, 11:20:59 PM
Show me an orthodox jewish institution in NYC or Lakewood or monsey, or Miami, or LA, or Chicago or or or that hosts 12 step meetings.
off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many, many more.

https://www.facebook.com/YY-House-1006847092686846/
http://www.chabadrehab.com/
http://torahtwelvesteps.org/
http://www.realizationcenternyc.com/treatment-services/orthodox-program/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2016, 11:32:16 PM
off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many, many more.

https://www.facebook.com/YY-House-1006847092686846/
http://www.chabadrehab.com/
http://torahtwelvesteps.org/
http://www.realizationcenternyc.com/treatment-services/orthodox-program/
Maybe i should have qualified this request. Looking for shuls or schools that host meetings, not rehabs or treatment centers...or for profit businesses!!!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 04, 2016, 11:34:34 PM
I know of one in Brooklyn.
Makes me wonder if this is self-introspection:
It was...but difficult to convey. I was trying to make a point that there are very few compared to how many there are in churches.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 04, 2016, 11:42:15 PM
Maybe i should have qualified this request. Looking for shuls or schools that host meetings, not rehabs or treatment centers...or for profit businesses!!!
It was...but difficult to convey. I was trying to make a point that there are very few compared to how many there are in churches.
the two first ones are non profits, and don't charge to attend meetings. Churches, as you pointed out, are just convenient venues. So are the above. Not really convenient to use the ezras noshim :)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on December 04, 2016, 11:48:23 PM
It was...but difficult to convey. I was trying to make a point that there are very few compared to how many there are in churches.

There is an element of privacy that is necessary, which explains why a church is more suited for a meeting than a shul.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2016, 12:06:04 AM
There is an element of privacy that is necessary, which explains why a church is more suited for a meeting than a shul.
Of course the element of privacy. You also have the stigma. So shuls are not conducive because Jews cant keep from being yentas. But if you have those that will not go to a church...

You gotta read my question in the context of the discussion.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2016, 12:07:56 AM
the two first ones are non profits, and don't charge to attend meetings. Churches, as you pointed out, are just convenient venues. So are the above. Not really convenient to use the ezras noshim :)
Obviously not the ezras nashim...but the classrooms of a school after hours?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on December 05, 2016, 12:11:37 AM
Of course the element of privacy. You also have the stigma. So shuls are not conducive because Jews cant keep from being yentas. But if you have those that will not go to a church...

You gotta read my question in the context of the discussion.

I read your point as part of the discussion which I why wrote what I did.
Your idea is to show the entire world that we have addicts, so in that context, complaining that no shuls hold meetings -despite the fact that various Jewish community centers and organizations hold meetings- is another way to achieve your goal.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 05, 2016, 12:18:43 AM
I read your point as part of the discussion which I why wrote what I did.
Your idea is to show the entire world that we have addicts, so in that context, complaining that no shuls hold meetings -despite the fact that various Jewish community centers and organizations hold meetings- is another way to achieve your goal.
No thats not the intent. We just need to take away one of the most common excuses for not going to meetings. Not to show the world anything.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on December 05, 2016, 09:20:18 PM
Someone involved in the field told me that he was counseling a public figure in dealing with am addiction, and the person wanted to find a 12 step group where he would not be recognized. He drove some distance to a program in the basement of a church, and when he walked in, another frum person was sitting there...

Also, if the program is happening in the social hall or basement of a church, and is sticking to the program, there is certainly no problem in going (although an addict will use any excuse). But some churches have programs that are explicitly Christian but loosely based on the 12 steps, and that is Assur. In other words, not all "12 step programs" are really doing only the 12 steps.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on December 06, 2016, 12:34:36 AM
All I've seen here is that it's 100% okay to enter a church.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple.
I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2016, 01:35:46 AM
All I've seen here is that it's 100% okay to enter a church.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple.
I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.
I didnt bother reading that. IMHO its pikuach nefesh. If going into an ancillary part of a church (not the sanctuary) is yaharog v'al yaavor then fine, drop dead instead, just dont take others with you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on December 06, 2016, 01:48:00 AM
I didnt bother reading that. IMHO its pikuach nefesh. If going into an ancillary part of a church (not the sanctuary) is yaharog v'al yaavor then fine, drop dead instead, just dont take others with you.

I'm not arguing if it is or isn't pikuach nefesh.
In the article one rov wouldn't walk into a church even in a pikuach nefesh situation.
Either way, most of the time there is a kosher option but if there isn't you should ask a rav.

This thread makes it like it's not even a question.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2016, 01:53:46 AM
I'm not arguing if it is or isn't pikuach nefesh.
In the article one rov wouldn't walk into a church even in a pikuach nefesh situation.
Either way, most of the time there is a kosher option but if there isn't you should ask a rav.

This thread makes it like it's not even a question.
If you need a rov, Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski has said it many times. Yesh al me lismoch.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on December 06, 2016, 11:19:05 AM
All I've seen here is that it's 100% okay to enter a church.

As seen in this article (http://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?halachaid=2367), it is not so simple.
I'm sure there are better, more thorough articles, but the point stands. That it's not so simple to even walk into a church, so instead of paskening for others, AYLOR or find any of the Jewish meetings.
I asked when I needed to attend for school. The response made it sound pashut
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2016, 11:46:32 AM
I asked when I needed to attend for school. The response made it sound pashut
pashut in what way?

I wonder if every frum student that attends Fordham or St. Johns or any other christian school asks whether they can attend classes. Like I've said upthread, if one is looking for excuses, they are readily available.

The point of what I've been saying is that you just cant have it both ways: Not going to meetings in churches because of "frumkeit" and not having meetings in "kosher" locations because of "privacy issues".
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2016, 11:51:26 AM
pashut in what way?

I wonder if every frum student that attends Fordham or St. Johns or any other christian school asks whether they can attend classes. Like I've said upthread, if one is looking for excuses, they are readily available.

The point of what I've been saying is that you just cant have it both ways: Not going to meetings in churches because of "frumkeit" and not having meetings in "kosher" locations because of "privacy issues".
Fordham was a big tumult back in the 60s with some saying it was assur.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2016, 12:15:15 PM
Fordham was a big tumult back in the 60s with some saying it was assur.
Any Christian hospital should be yehareg too by these rules.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 06, 2016, 08:52:23 PM
It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response.
 Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 06, 2016, 08:53:10 PM
It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response.
 Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)
+1 on each part
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 06, 2016, 09:29:56 PM
It's not a big deal. If you or a family member need to go to a meeting, ask a competent rov!

(most community rabbonim are very aware of these issues and shailos, and should be able to offer a quick simple response.
 Beware of a asking someone inexperienced who doesnt know what addiction is etc. They may not be in a position to provide a reliable response.)
+1
Exactly what has been said all along. Any complicated answer is a sign of inexperience.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on December 22, 2016, 07:55:25 AM
http://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/How-did-my-son-product-of-an-Orthodox-family-educated-in-a-yeshiva-become-an-addict,11617
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 08:06:40 AM
http://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/How-did-my-son-product-of-an-Orthodox-family-educated-in-a-yeshiva-become-an-addict,11617
Drug addiction does not discriminate between the races, religions or genders. It affects us all in one way or another.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mmgfarb on December 22, 2016, 10:33:06 AM
Drug addiction does not discriminate between the races, religions or genders. It affects us all in one way or another.

Very true, it's really unfortunate that it's a topic that isn't discussed in many communities.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 22, 2016, 10:37:59 AM
If you need a rov, Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski has said it many times. Yesh al me lismoch.
+1
He knows that it's an issue of life or death. So you go! Regardless of where it is. (Main issur is the actual sanctuary, so that's prob not where they are holding the groups.)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: efflpetzel on December 22, 2016, 10:43:51 AM
@aygart. I'm trying to be dun lekaf zechus on you but I'm having a really hard time, so I'm going to simply ask you.

Do you know of someone that was adversly affected by any publicity surrounding the drugs issue?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 10:50:57 AM
Very true, it's really unfortunate that it's a topic that isn't discussed in many OURcommunities.
FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 10:52:15 AM
FTFY
Both are correct.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mmgfarb on December 22, 2016, 10:54:27 AM
Both are correct.
+1, you'd be surprised.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
you'd be surprised.
Me?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mmgfarb on December 22, 2016, 10:55:54 AM
Me?
hvaces42
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 10:58:00 AM
@aygart. I'm trying to be dun lekaf zechus on you but I'm having a really hard time, so I'm going to simply ask you.

Do you know of someone that was adversly affected by any publicity surrounding the drugs issue?
Here we go again. If you feel it takes being dun lkaf zchus to simply say that real professionals need to be involved in any publicity of the issue to ensure it is not yatza schrara bihefseida then I think we need to work on ways to be dun you lkaf zchus. I am still baffled why this is even controversial.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: efflpetzel on December 22, 2016, 10:58:36 AM
Here we go again. If you feel it takes being dun lkaf zchus to simply say that real professionals need to be involved in any publicity of the issue to ensure it is not yatza schrara bihefseida then I think we need to work on ways to be dun you lkaf zchus. I am still baffled why this is even controversial.
Answer my question.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 11:26:46 AM
Answer my question.
not that I know of.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: efflpetzel on December 22, 2016, 11:48:54 AM
not that I know of.
Case closed.

(I'm biting my tongue & holding back from saying the things I really want to say to you)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
Case closed.

(I'm biting my tongue & holding back from saying the things I really want to say to you)
Many others would answer the same and they are left unchallenged because they are "daas torah" ( which is about the equivalent of magical fairy dust powers if you ask me).

Just say it, its almost friday anyway. We need some PC
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on December 22, 2016, 12:01:22 PM


"daas torah" ( which is about the equivalent of magical fairy dust powers if you ask me).


Good thing noone is asking you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 12:02:16 PM
Case closed.

(I'm biting my tongue & holding back from saying the things I really want to say to you)
And everyone else are the ones with their head in the sand ::)

I am not advocating for nothing to be done or for it not to be publicized, only that it be done with thought and by real professionals and not by
Many others who would answer the same and they are left unchallenged because they claim to be"daas torah". (FTFY)
I make no claim of being anywhere close to fully knowledgeable on the subject and I am fully satisfied with this that CBC says how the publicity and event in Lakewood was well thought out and planned in conjunction with professionals. Why is this even controversial?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: efflpetzel on December 22, 2016, 12:03:08 PM



Just say it, its almost friday anyway. We need some PC
there's nothing funny about this topic & there certainly shouldn't be anything to argue about.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 12:11:04 PM
there's nothing funny about this topic & there certainly shouldn't be anything to argue about.


Tell me, do you feel that it should be publicized without professional guidance?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 12:11:32 PM
there's nothing funny about this topic & there certainly shouldn't be anything to argue about.
Its not controversial or funny. "Professionals" is code...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 12:15:03 PM
Its not controversial or funny. "Professionals" is code...
code for what? I definitely don't mean it as a code for anything. Maybe I should change my wording if people are thinking that I mean something other than what I really do.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 12:16:56 PM
code for what? I definitely don't mean it as a code for anything. Maybe I should change my wording if people are thinking that I mean something other than what I really do.
The way I'm taking it is "without rabbinical input as to who is an acceptable "professional"". Do you mean it otherwise?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 12:20:37 PM
The way I'm taking it is "without rabbinical input as to who is an acceptable "professional"". Do you mean it otherwise?
No I do not mean it that way at all. I mean someone who is trained properly in how to deal with addiction and understands the many factors involved based on real statistics and the knowledge and experience to interpret them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 22, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
Guys, I've argued with aygart (left it lowercase for you) plenty. Frankly, you guys are being ridiculously unfair and assigning positions and opinions to him which he has never laid claim to. Stop "reading into" his comments, and just read them.

He has posted his desire for experts in the field to be the ones coordinating and directing campaigns, and never once intimated that Rabbinic authority be consulted over medical and psychological experts.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 12:51:27 PM
Guys, I've argued with aygart (left it lowercase for you) plenty. Frankly, you guys are being ridiculously unfair and assigning positions and opinions to him which he has never laid claim to. Stop "reading into" his comments, and just read them.

He has posted his desire for experts in the field to be the ones coordinating and directing campaigns, and never once intimated that Rabbinic authority be consulted over medical and psychological experts.
Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 01:01:09 PM
Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority
What in the world are you talking about! Now I understand the whole conversation from before. You are twisting my words terribly. If you take everything people say and twist it like you did with mine you will never be able to accept any suggestions that anyone makes and will accomplish little. Why do you feel a need to create a straw man?

There will always need to be askanim involved to arrange many of the practicalities. It will be a good idea to have some rabbonim to work with them too but they need to be ones smart enough to realize that the professionals are the ones who really know how to deal with it and they would only give some halachic and hashkafic guidance. Why is this so complicated? Why are you insisting on putting words in my mouth?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 22, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
Since youre his lawyer, what does he mean when he says "in conjunction with professionals"? What is being "intimated" then? Its exactly what is being suggested. The rabbinic authority has final say on what is presented over and above any medical or psychological authority

His claim repeatedly has been, "hey anonymous internet people, well-intentioned as we all might be, there can be unintended consequences when dealing with issues as serious as drug addiction. No matter how much we, communal & rabbinic leaders want to help, any campaign or project must be done in conjunction with professionals in the field so as to ensure they are actually helping and not making things worse."
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: efflpetzel on December 22, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
Tell me, do you feel that it should be publicized without professional guidance?
I will not discuss this this topic further with you as you're position is ridiculous, pathetic & indefensible.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 02:23:03 PM
If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 02:25:49 PM
His claim repeatedly has been, "hey anonymous internet people, well-intentioned as we all might be, there can be unintended consequences when dealing with issues as serious as drug addiction. No matter how much we, communal & rabbinic leaders want to help, any campaign or project must be done in conjunction with professionals in the field so as to ensure they are actually helping and not making things worse."
Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 02:28:07 PM
If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?
Professional.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 02:29:10 PM
If the professional must rely on the rabbinic for hashkafa and halacha then it is rabbinic in conjunction with professional. If it the other way around then the professional is dealing with it. Otherwise, the rabbi has final say on content and you temper the message. No one is twisting anyones words.

Answer the question, who has final say on the message and means of conveying such message, rabbi or professional?
Sorry, just joining the party, but is there anyone here who argues with the notion that Rabbonim and mental health professionals BOTH have important insight to add to this topic? Professionals need to consult with Rabbonim in these matters AND Rabbonim need to consult with professionals in these matters.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
Sorry, just joining the party, but is there anyone here who argues with the notion that Rabbonim and mental health professionals BOTH have important insight to add to this topic? Professionals need to consult with Rabbonim in these matters AND Rabbonim need to consult with professionals in these matters.
Obviously. However...

Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 02:44:27 PM
I will not discuss this this topic further with you as you're position is ridiculous, pathetic & indefensible.

Okaaaay. You sound very rational.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 02:44:50 PM
Obviously. However...
What are said non-existent unintended consequences? And whose abilities to help are being clouded by them?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 02:46:08 PM
Obviously. However anyone who goes ahead and says anything at all must be using some code and really means that nothing should be done.

Translated
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 02:49:39 PM
What are said non-existent unintended consequences? And whose abilities to help are being clouded by them?
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 02:50:40 PM
Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.
You don't think that random people online when unguided can do things with unintended consequences?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 02:53:07 PM
You don't think that random people online when unguided can do things with unintended consequences?

I will not discuss this this topic further with you as you're position is ridiculous, pathetic & indefensible.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 22, 2016, 02:56:12 PM
Your irrational, baseless, fabricated fear of non-existent unintended consequences clouds your intent and ability to help.

Your hot headed, angry knee jerk argumentative stance has clouded your ability to even possess a modicum of elementary school level reading comprehension.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue  (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Peace out.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 02:59:35 PM
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
I said no such thing and have repeatedly tried to no avail to correct your twisted misinterpretation of my words. A professional will know on their own to do it carefully and not with wanton abandon yelling from the rooftops. That is a part of what makes them into a professional-that they know what they should do and what they shouldn't do. It is the non-professionals and self-proclaimed "professionals" I am concerned about. Unfortunately, your reaction of twisting my words and creating straw men is only strengthening this concern.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 03:00:16 PM
Treating drug addiction should be done under a professionals supervision. Making the community aware of the problem can be done by anyone.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:00:23 PM
Your hot headed, angry knee jerk argumentative stance has clouded your ability to even possess a modicum of elementary school level reading comprehension.

See? It's not so difficult to throw out a sharp worded comment in the midst of an argument. The thing is, those lines are usually low on substance, no matter how good they make you feel.

Aygart provided sources from experts who are the very least as qualified as the ones you purport he wants to have overridden by rabbinical authority, if not more so. The stupidity of this argument is that you and and he are in strong agreement, but you have such a strong anger to the community's response to this issue  (judging by your comments, it is likely justified, based on prior experience) that you automatically assigned contradictory opinions and viewpoints he never stated.

Peace out.
Thank you for basing your opinion on what I wrote and not some hallucination of what I am trying to say.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 03:01:14 PM
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mmgfarb on December 22, 2016, 03:03:20 PM
Treating drug addiction should be done under a professionals supervision. Making the community aware of the problem can be done by anyone who has a very good understanding of the problem and how to deal with it.
FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 03:04:54 PM
FTFY
That's not actually correct.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 03:05:12 PM
not that I know of.
That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mmgfarb on December 22, 2016, 03:05:58 PM
That's not actually correct.
I guess you're right if you're just talking about awareness, anything more than that shouldn't be done by people without am understanding of the problem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 22, 2016, 03:07:04 PM
Rabbi aygart

I must give you kudos for using "Rabbi" as a pejorative. Nicely done.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 03:08:23 PM
I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences.
...but this works great. Just look at the Catholic Church if anyone needs an example.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 03:08:59 PM
I guess you're right if you're just talking about awareness,
That is the first step.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 03:12:52 PM
Perhaps there may be some merit to that argument, but then it can be argued that education about any kind of danger or negative thing may promote it, so never educate...

It's a fine line. I am in the mental health field, and I actually saw a case where a teenage Orthodox girl who was going through a tough time began cutting after being exposed to (read: educated about) the concept of self-injury on a forum online. Until then, she had never thought of it, and certainly never considered doing it. Education is essential, but we do need to be careful about who we educate, why we are educating them, and in what way we do it.
Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 03:13:51 PM
I must give you kudos for using "Rabbi" as a pejorative. Nicely done.
It was not at all intended that way.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on December 22, 2016, 03:14:02 PM
That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences. Yet he still relies on some google researched farcical research instead of real life experience that contradicts that "study".

So yes, I'm possed off at the community for sweeping it under the rug and continually saying that they are dealing with the issue when in fact they are not. There are individuals of late who have taken it to the community the way it has to be taken. I agree that the most recent events in Lakewood were very productive.

I do not agree though that our community needs to be sheltered from education due to potential unintended consequences. That to me smacks of parochialism and chumrah-based thinking.

So you actually would prefer anonymous anecdotal evidence over peer reviewed science? And you are accusing others of irrationality?
 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 03:17:02 PM
Go back to the beginning of the thread. Read what was written and then take back your asinine remarks.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 22, 2016, 03:17:16 PM
That is the first step.
-1
The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 03:20:51 PM
Drugs are dangerous. Many teens your age are doing drugs. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. These teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know. There will be no consequences to you and you may save a life.

The above is something i never heard growing up in yeshiva and i doubt that those lines are spoken in yeshiva today. What is the downside of saying that? They may be too temimusdik that saying the word drugs will lead them to try drugs. Maybe. Im willing to take that risk.
The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:23:31 PM
That was his response to whether he knows anyone who has been harmed by unintended consequences.
I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 03:25:50 PM
I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.
Don't want to read >500 posts - mind linking to the article you're referring to?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:26:29 PM
Drugs are dangerous. Over the last year xx amount have died from unintended overdoses of drugs. Some teens cannot stop taking drugs because they are addicted. They need more and more until it gets out of hand. If you know or suspect thatbone of yoir friends are on drugs or at risk of doing drugs please let an adult know.

Is this version with my tweaks a better way to teach it? I don't know, but those trained and familiar with real statistics should.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:28:55 PM
Don't want to read >500 posts - mind linking to the article you're referring to?
I would need to find the link. I do remember that it was not about drugs but suicide (which was the original topic of this thread) and involved Cialdinni.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:31:53 PM
The particular medium of education I was referring to (that the girl I mentioned used) was a forum intended to educate and help teens. In this case (and likely others), it backfired, as she was exposed to extensive threads detailing ideas she had never been exposed to, and the knowledge that others in her situation were doing this simultaneously desensitized her it it. What you wrote above sounds fine - I was just saying that not all "education" is appropriate or constructive, and MAY at times be inappropriate and destructive.
This seems to me to be the exact point I was trying to make.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 03:33:43 PM
I am thankfully fortunate enough that there is no one who I know well enough to be privy to that information who suffered from addiction. I did not come across these studies via google rather they were used to bring out an unrelated point by a very highly credentialed mental health professional in a discussion about a totally unrelated topic. As beeweegee pointed out, these things do happen. There is no real good way to know if any individual case was somehow affected by the publicity since its effects according to their findings are subconscious. I never said that our community needs to be sheltered from education and would strongly disagree with anyone who feels that way. That does not mean that ALL publicity is good no matter how it is done.
Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 03:38:29 PM
Yes these things happen, that is why "war stories" are discouraged in certain meetings because you just may teach someone a new way to do xxxxx.
and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JTZ on December 22, 2016, 03:39:29 PM
-1
The step before that is several huge doses of prevention. Starting young. That can/should also be done by professionals. Professionals can teach rabbis how it's done.

Prevention, Education, Positive Role Modeling, Connection, Awareness to the pre-cursors of the addictions, and who is at-risk = all.

(Whether genetically pre-dispositioned, or watching others, or being a victim of a past experience, or online viewing/experimenting.) Schools can address this prevention and education directly to students via professional whole-class confidential question and answer sessions.Students can send up questions anonymously. Very effective. Especially if an 'outsider'/professional is the only one in charge in the room.
If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 22, 2016, 03:57:53 PM
If they are not even aware there is a problem how are you going to get them to do any of this?

they are aware. They must be aware -- those who are not aware must delegate to someone else. By 5777/2017, if they are clueless and blind, then others must step in for the sake of the future.

(I taught 10-yrs old over a decade ago, for several years. We learned to say "no" to anything like this or alcohol, and to reach out to adults if pressured, in pain, or alone. Even at that age, they can internalize it and bring out the facts and skills when they need it in their teen years.) 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 04:01:41 PM
and should all the more so be a reason why any public message should be tweaked by trained professionals (I added trained so you shouldn't think "professionals" is a code for "non-professionals") to ensure that random people don't get taught a new way or get desensitized as beeweegee wrote. Is that something you disagree with?
Yes
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:03:46 PM
Yes
why?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 04:25:22 PM
why?
Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 04:28:01 PM
Our kids are falling like flies and you worry about consequences of the message. Listen to yourself.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:29:44 PM
Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.

You don't think that trained professionals can take that into account without watering down the message in a way that it would not be effective? Who do you think WOULD be best at getting out the message? Only recovered people?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 22, 2016, 04:31:49 PM
http://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/How-did-my-son-product-of-an-Orthodox-family-educated-in-a-yeshiva-become-an-addict,11617
Also, see the comment.. nebach.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:32:45 PM
Our kids are falling like flies and you worry about consequences of the message. Listen to yourself.
What percentage of kids in the Orthodox Jewish education system would you estimate are addicted? (Even .000001% is too high and warrants a response-and no I don't think it is that low)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on December 22, 2016, 04:36:50 PM
Also, see the comment.. nebach.
This one: Thank you for sharing this. You are not alone.

I'm a recovering wife of an active addict. Never touched a drug in my life. Not even weed. I drink once in seven years. I'm still a ball of fun and can outdance all the stoners and alcoholics at any wedding. My biggest vice is some TV in the evenings.

I barely have 24 hours clean. Clean from the last time I meddled in my addicts life.

I've been working an Al-Anon program for 1.5 years now, but lately I've been slipping more and more. Last night was awful. We're a nice Jewish family. Struggling. Married with two kids. I thought I was well-adjusted way before I got married. Didn't need a man to complete me. Happy, in love, loving, not too clingy. So Tell me why my husband is an active addict? No idea. Tell me why his GP of 30 yrs prescribed Oxys to a father of two who had a drug problem twenty years ago? Only Gd knows. Why is my husband snorting in the bathroom? Where's the big-papa teddy bear that didn't know how to lie to save his life and now manipulates every sentence to cover a web of lies? Why are his eyes glossed over? Why is he dying and slipping away between my finger tips? Why do I wake up every night to the sound of pill boxes?

Did I enable him? Hell no. Not as soon as I realized he has an 'addictive personality'. Jews aren't addicts I thought. Not my husband anyway. Everyone drinks on the weekend, I thought.

"I'm too young for this shit and I'm too old for this shit."
That's my motto sometimes.
I'm too young to be a widow at 30, I'm too old to deal with a 35yr old regressing to his 17 yr old adolescent authority-hating self.

Do I fight the good fight to keep this family together, to keep him alive? Of course I do. I am Omnipotent, I can do anything, I am his Higher Power. Clearly a part of me still hasn't internalized that I'm not in control, that I can't cure him. And yet somehow I keep contributing. I keep trying to get him clean. To raise his bottom, to be his spiritual awakening. How do you think I'm doing, personally? Honest to god truth, any addict already knows what i look like, a broken sobbing mess, as I write this, because it reminds me to feel sorry for myself. Other days I'm a strong lionness, challenging my husband to step up to the plate, to be "a man". I'm just as insane as he is.

And I've reached my Zen zones. I know how to meditate, how to call my sponsor. I have seven Al-Anon associated literatures next to my bed. And I still don't understand the addict. I still am freaked the f out that he will overdose and die, leaving us behind. Our kids worship the ground he walks on. They're 5 & 3. They need their dad.

If there are addicts reading this, I know you like nothing less than a spouse's sob story. I hate weakness as well. I'm not usually a mess, I'm strong and I will hold on to this house like four archangels only can until he can get better, and to not let his disease and mine affect us. I asked him to leave today.

What's my point? That this man, last night, as I begged him to give me the pills before he goes for a bath, as petite little me fought him to keep the bathroom door open and trying to grab at his pill bag, I saw the look in his eyes. I mean, I know I look like a crazy person: the crying and yelling and sniffling. I know what I look like. But his look. It's so different now. He is so far gone. I remind him who he is at these moments, I call him by his full name. "You are Akiva Hillel son of Tzvi Aryeh. You are not defined by your addiction". But this time it just didn't reach him. He will do everything to protect his Higher Power - his pills. And I feel like it's a lost battle. But then I go to AA and NA forums and I see these ppl with their badass counting apps: 3 days clean, 5 months, 30 yrs, telling their story, and I tell myself to just do what I gotta do and get out of the way so Gd and my addict can dance their dance. It gives me compassion to hear other addicts, it reminds me he is owed respect and dignity to make his own mistakes. It reminds me I'm not at fault but I'm also not responsible to make him or keep him clean.

There is hope for those living with or who know of active addicts. Look up Al-Anon or Nar-Anon groups. Find ways to save yourself and the rest of the family while Gd handles the addict. He's the only One who can.

"We admitted we were powerless over the addict, that our lives had become unmanageable." - Step 1 of the 12 Steps.
 :'(
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
Becausr that watered down message hasnt been working. Our community has been coddled and babied to death, literally.
I think the prevalence of sweeping issues under the rug and not addressing issues at all is the reason why our "watered down message" hasn't been working. It's because it has been almost non-existent for a long time. The message (or lack thereof) has not been supported by professionals in the field. I think that the fact that there seems to be current interest/openness on the part of the community/Rabbanim to more open discussion in these areas is very encouraging. That doesn't mean that this new openness to communal education doesn't need to be done appropriately.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:40:47 PM
Also, see the comment.. nebach.
+1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 04:43:01 PM
What percentage of kids in the Orthodox Jewish education system would you estimate are addicted? (Even .000001% is too high and warrants a response-and no I don't think it is that low)
According to studies ive seen bandied about here and elsewhere pretty much the same percentage as the non-orthodox non-jewish kids. I think thats hogh
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:47:26 PM
I think the prevalence of sweeping issues under the rug and not addressing issues at all is the reason why our "watered down message" hasn't been working. It's because it has been almost non-existent for a long time. The message (or lack thereof) has not been supported by professionals in the field. I think that the fact that there seems to be current interest/openness on the part of the community/Rabbanim to more open discussion in these areas is very encouraging. That doesn't mean that this new openness to communal education doesn't need to be done appropriately.
You are stating my point much better than I would have. If there is an issue which affects 20% of kids does that mean we should publicize it without regard to trained rpofessionals and stick our heads in the sand about them saying that this may cause the issue to affect 30% because a may wter down the message? Some things need to be watered down appropriately while if it is watered down too much it will be ineffective. The trained professional is the one who will know that balance.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 04:48:12 PM
According to studies ive seen bandied about here and elsewhere pretty much the same percentage as the non-orthodox non-jewish kids. I think thats hogh
So do I. This is around what percent?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 04:49:33 PM
You are stating my point much better than I would have. If there is an issue which affects 20% of kids does that mean we should publicize it without regard to trained rpofessionals and stick our heads in the sand about them saying that this may cause the issue to affect 30% because a may wter down the message? Some things need to be watered down appropriately while if it is watered down too much it will be ineffective. The trained professional is the one who will know that balance.
Agree with both of you on this. However, the vetting process of professionals who are allowed to mold that message is whats broken as well.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 22, 2016, 04:50:01 PM
That letter is eye-opening. If the husband was bringing ham into the bathroom to eat, then don't you think that the rabbis would work harder to put an end to it!?!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on December 22, 2016, 04:59:17 PM
So do I. This is around what percent?
Depends on the demographic and particular grade/age. Recent numbers aren't quite 20%, but certainly far higher than the above-mentioned .001%. If I recall correctly, 12th graders were around 5 or 6% for daily marijuana use, and less for other drugs. As an aside, it's interesting that recent studies have found a decline in high school drug use, but also a decline in the perceived risk of harm.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 22, 2016, 04:59:54 PM
In the frum community I would say that it's a higher percentage than kids with cancer.

That enough?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 05:01:13 PM
Agree with both of you on this. However, the vetting process of professionals who are allowed to mold that message is whats broken as well.
This is all I was saying the entire time. All you needed to do was open your ears instead of fitting me into some pre-conceived notions.

The vetting process may well be broken. I have no knowledge of that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 05:03:09 PM
Depends on the demographic and particular grade/age. Recent numbers aren't quite 20%, but certainly far higher than the above-mentioned .001%. If I recall correctly, 12th graders were around 5 or 6% for daily marijuana use, and less for other drugs. As an aside, it's interesting that recent studies have found a decline in high school drug use, but also a decline in the perceived risk of harm.
The 20% was intentionally high and the .00001% was intentionally low.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 22, 2016, 05:04:46 PM
In the frum community I would say that it's a higher percentage than kids with cancer.

That enough?
Enough for it to be important to do something about hte problem? ABSOLUTELY even if it is much less than that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 22, 2016, 05:07:56 PM
In the frum community I would say that it's a higher percentage than kids with cancer.

That enough?

YES! Especially, if done correctly: early enough, and with education, prevention, connection, and constant updates, then it's preventable.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: dmdmoses46 on December 22, 2016, 06:25:05 PM
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Super Speed on December 22, 2016, 10:52:36 PM
Rabbi aygart has been saying that professionals enlightening our community to the dangers of addiction must do so very carefully so as to avoid unintended consequences. Presumably he means that the benefit of education must be weighed against some stupid kid trying drugs or acting out on some other addiction as a result of said education. That sort of thinking has Brisk chumrah written all over it.
I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.
I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 22, 2016, 11:18:37 PM
I think you being personally involved in so many of these cases is clouding your judgment. And the way you are speaking during these arguments show that all to well.
I am not taking sides here but argue coherently and stop sticking words into Aygarts mouth.
Thank you for your imput.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Talmid Muvhak on December 23, 2016, 02:33:41 AM
Enough for it to be important to do something about hte problem? ABSOLUTELY even if it is much less than that.
כל המקיים נפש אחת מישראל....
If we look at these kids as individuals and see what THEIR needs are and where their place in Klal Yisroel is and help them to go in their way חנוך לנער על פי דרכו and not to fit into a mold they don't fit into then they will be happy and fulfilled and not looking for other highs. If you speak to a lot of these kids you see that what is on their minds is just being who they are.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on December 23, 2016, 02:39:55 AM
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here

that is why prevention and education is so important. Education is not just typical yeshiva learning. It's other hands-on, practical, life-saving education in other fields of assistance, invention, and helping/improving others.
Title: Silent Killer
Post by: Talmid Muvhak on December 23, 2016, 02:45:27 AM
the problem is not the drug addiction per se the problem that these kids are not doing anything in yeshiva and they are not feeling like they are doing anything with their life and thats why they turn to drugs everyone is making like it's a mental illness which we don't want to confront that is missing the boat with the underlying issue here
And the solution is finding a way for them to be productive. All is not lost, people are coming around even outside the forums. I was speaking to one of the menahalim of one of the biggest chedarim in the USA last week about this and he said how he is excited that he will be able to send to new Mesivtas that are "programs" for these boys as opposed to sending to a particular Mesivta run by someone in chinuch who "wants to say a shiur" to them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 23, 2016, 11:45:23 AM
That letter is eye-opening. If the husband was bringing ham into the bathroom to eat, then don't you think that the rabbis would work harder to put an end to it!?!
No I don't.
Do you not know anyone who is mechalel Shabbbos in the bathroom? Were the Rabbi's able to stop him/her?
Why does this have to be about the Rabbi's? No one, in close to 600 posts, has pointed to a Rabbi who said - don't educate, don't tell anyone, drugs isn't an issue. The closest you got was a possible Rabbinic opinion to not go into a church for a meeting if other meetings are available. And no one had a source for that either.
The most you'll find is a Rabbi who is trying to protect the dignity of the family of an addict, because that is what said family wants. With huge respect and kudos to Mrs. maisel, not everyone wants to go public with their spouse's addiction, or even their child's heroin overdose. Are they not entitled to that privacy? Yes, it may result in unintended 'sweeping under the carpet'. But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

And as far as your ten year old students - you probably didn't help them, according to many recent studies, Education needs to be cutting edge, guided by skilled and well read professionals, and yes, supported by Rabbinic Authorities.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-disastrous-legacy-of-nancy-reagans-just-say-no-campaign-fd24570bf109#.fsbbvmoby (https://thinkprogress.org/the-disastrous-legacy-of-nancy-reagans-just-say-no-campaign-fd24570bf109#.fsbbvmoby)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-just-say-no-doesnt-work/)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 23, 2016, 12:31:45 PM
But believe me, there are hundreds of 'Rabbi's' who lose more sleep individually than we all did collectively over this issue.

They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 23, 2016, 12:43:46 PM
They only mainly lose sleep over it because they are not equipped to deal with it. Incidental experience alert: Rabbi tells wife of addict that they only have a shalom bayis problem and should work on that. Rebbetzin refers her to addiction specialist!
With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 23, 2016, 12:47:40 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/9b75af36f2533fdd8302887bee0bab42.png)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 23, 2016, 12:50:20 PM
With all due respect to your experience in the field, that's baloney. I know first hand. As a simple example, at the recent Agudah Convention there was a closed door session with Mental Health professionals and very significant Rabbonim, who consult with them and refer patients to them on a multiple times a day basis. I have first hand knowledge of many, many such incidents.
I agree with you in that aspect. Those rabbonim lose sleep over many klal issues. But your run of the mill shteeble rabbi is not equipped, at all. Again, incidental experience alert: Well educated YU graduate pulpit Rabbi had no clue his congregant was an addict when the behavior affected the Rabbi himself.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 23, 2016, 12:53:52 PM
I agree with you in that aspect. Those rabbonim lose sleep over many klal issues. But your run of the mill shteeble rabbi is not equipped, at all. Again, incidental experience alert: Well educated YU graduate pulpit Rabbi had no clue his congregant was an addict when the behavior affected the Rabbi himself.
So we agree. We have to be careful of using a broad brush here. The end effect of that is all Rabbonim are discredited, all yeshivas are bad etc.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on December 23, 2016, 12:56:44 PM
So we agree. We have to be careful of using a broad brush here. The end effect of that is all Rabbonim are discredited, all yeshivas are bad etc.
Chas V'Shalom. Sorry if that's how it came off. Most Rabbonim, if not all carry very weighty burdens. People struggling with mental health issues in their congregation is but one of those issues. But as far as addiction is concerned, like with therapists I have spoken to, if you are not trained to see the signs and symptoms, its very difficult to identify what you are looking at. After the fact its very obvious.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 25, 2016, 12:15:33 PM
And another one last week... But who's counting.

May the family have a nechamah.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on December 25, 2016, 12:18:12 PM
And another one last week... But who's counting.

May the family have a nechamah.
Oy. ANother one too many.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on December 26, 2016, 08:20:55 PM
People who are doing a lot more than just posting on a forum.
A very worthy cause.

https://www.gofundme.com/the-yy-house
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on December 27, 2016, 03:55:35 PM
People who are doing a lot more than just posting on a forum.
A very worthy cause.

https://www.gofundme.com/the-yy-house
bump.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on May 14, 2017, 05:07:11 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/05/14/opioid-addiction-crisis-spurs-brutal-candor-in-obituaries.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on May 14, 2017, 05:47:08 PM
Powerful article.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 14, 2017, 07:29:21 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/05/14/opioid-addiction-crisis-spurs-brutal-candor-in-obituaries.html
The shame and stigma are not just in the frum community
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on May 14, 2017, 08:40:06 PM
The shame and stigma are not just in the frum community
Just generally worse in religious communities. Not just Jewish ones either...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 25, 2017, 07:45:59 AM
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170523/crown-heights/opioid-overdoses-lubavitch-crown-heights-operation-survival-naloxone
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on May 25, 2017, 08:03:50 AM
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170523/crown-heights/opioid-overdoses-lubavitch-crown-heights-operation-survival-naloxone
Beautiful. There was recently an addiction awareness event in BP/Flatbush where they trained people too and handed out rescue kits. Good work.

 Shea Hechts statement is endemic of the excuses used to avoid reality.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 05, 2017, 03:12:52 PM
Bde. Another silent death.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on June 05, 2017, 03:19:48 PM
Bde. Another silent death.
Lakewood?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 05, 2017, 03:31:49 PM
Lakewood?
Tri state area. (It was called silent for a reason...)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on June 05, 2017, 04:44:28 PM
Tri state area. (It was called silent for a reason...)

approximate age? teens? early 20's? seems a few since Pesach....
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 05, 2017, 04:54:54 PM
approximate age? teens? early 20's? seems a few since Pesach....
Late 20s with kids
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on June 05, 2017, 04:58:05 PM
Late 20s with kids

terrible.  :'( Just happened a few weeks ago, early 30's with 4 children. Accidental.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on June 05, 2017, 06:40:40 PM
Aren't police also suspecting that Aron in BP was also a case?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 05, 2017, 06:55:59 PM
Aren't police also suspecting that Aron in BP was also a case?
Yeah, the theory is he popped pills rolled himself in the blanket, duct taped himself rolled down the stairs into the basement closet.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 05, 2017, 08:12:34 PM
Yeah, the theory is he popped pills rolled himself in the blanket, duct taped himself rolled down the stairs into the basement closet.
+1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mrprez27 on June 11, 2017, 04:58:21 PM
Any more recent stats, how common is Yid Suicides?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 12:12:39 AM
Another one. When will this end?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on June 25, 2017, 12:13:29 AM
Another one. When will this end?
BD"E
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Eliyohu on June 25, 2017, 12:38:57 AM
Another one. When will this end?
I hear there was 2 b"de
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2017, 01:08:45 PM
What is a Silent Killer? overdose or suicide?

and how can a father of children death be kept Silent?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 01:12:32 PM
What is a Silent Killer? overdose or suicide?

and how can a father of children death be kept Silent?
Both
20 y/o girl
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2017, 01:13:39 PM
20 y/o girl


terrible.  :'( Just happened a few weeks ago, early 30's with 4 children. Accidental.

BTW I know of an overdose last week in Monsey too.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: semper fi on June 25, 2017, 01:51:44 PM
From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need.  Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 01:59:23 PM
Doesn't the existence of a stigma create a barrier for some from become addicts?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 02:08:25 PM
Doesn't the existence of a stigma create a barrier for some from become addicts?
IMO no stigma in the world will stop someone from becoming an addict. One is either pre-disposed or not.

If youre saying, for instance, a frum yeshiva bochur wouldnt get involved in drugs because s'past nit. They get hooked on cigarettes clandestinely at first and then its out in the open. Same with any other addiction. At first its בצנעה...then its בפרהסיה.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 02:33:30 PM
IMO no stigma in the world will stop someone from becoming an addict. One is either pre-disposed or not.

If youre saying, for instance, a frum yeshiva bochur wouldnt get involved in drugs because s'past nit. They get hooked on cigarettes clandestinely at first and then its out in the open. Same with any other addiction. At first its בצנעה...then its בפרהסיה.
Is there science to back that up? It is either true or untrue not subject to opinions of the non CD kind. If true let's call back the psychologists since it is something medical not psychological.

You do not think that there are some who resist that next step due to the stigma?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 02:43:12 PM
Is there science to back that up? It is either true or untrue not subject to opinions of the non CD kind. If true let's call back the psychologists since it is something medical not psychological.

You do not think that there are some who resist that next step due to the stigma?
Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma. But no amount of self-control can stop an addict in the throes of their addiction.

One has to work on themselves to hold back from getting caught up. Many are able to. Many are not.

And since when is psychological mutually exclusive from medical. Your refusal to admit that there is a problem without scientific evidence when the boots on the ground are telling you all you need to know is indeed telling. Keep your head in the sand. Keep finding excuses why you wont believe this or that fact on the ground.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma. But no amount of self-control can stop an addict in the throes of their addiction.

One has to work on themselves to hold back from getting caught up. Many are able to. Many are not.
sounds like we are in agreement. If so we should make sure that the stigma stays so that more and more people would have that as an incentive to hold themselves back.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:00:29 PM
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14193443/1/tobacco-industry-snuffing-out-cigarettes-as-vaping-heated-tobacco-take-hold.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 03:10:25 PM
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14193443/1/tobacco-industry-snuffing-out-cigarettes-as-vaping-heated-tobacco-take-hold.html?cm_ven=RSSFeed
So continue to stigmatize people who have an addiction. Smoking is cured. Vaping is good. What other fallacies will you be promoting today?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 03:13:01 PM
If so we should make sure that the stigma stays so that more and more people would have that as an incentive to hold themselves back.
I hope that is tongue in cheek. If you're serious about that please say so clearly. I think that is the ultimate comment that leaves me speechless.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:13:35 PM
So continue to stigmatize people who have an addiction. Smoking is cured. Vaping is good. What other fallacies will you be promoting today?
This does not even deserve an answer. You are making straw man arguments now. Keep arguing with what you imagined that I said and then you can imagine me arguing back.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 03:14:45 PM
This does not even deserve an answer. You are making straw man arguments now. Keep arguing with what you imagined that I said and then you can imagine me arguing back.
Next is the no true Scotsman statement. Predictable.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:21:38 PM
I hope that is tongue in cheek. If you're serious about that please say so clearly. I think that is the ultimate comment that leaves me speechless.
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Next is the no true Scotsman statement. Predictable.
A second ago you accused me of fallacies.

Either way, I consider my reputation of avoiding poor logic to be a badge of honor. You can continue making fun of logical reasoning. That would make you illogical.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on June 25, 2017, 03:23:41 PM
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shauly101 on June 25, 2017, 03:24:44 PM
From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need.  Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.

how about preventing ppl from the very start, not to touch this??????
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:28:32 PM
Does the stigma really help those that don't do it because they are afraid?
I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on June 25, 2017, 03:29:24 PM
I am not sure that afraid is the right word, but would the stigma against doing something hold you back even if you have a taava for it? Sometimes it will prevent it and sometimes the taava is too strong.
But even if it holds you back you still need help
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:29:43 PM
how about preventing ppl from the very start, not to touch this??????
I don't think relying on prevention alone is realistic. That would require 100% success which is unlikely.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:30:14 PM
But even if it holds you back you still need help
True.
The help needed for someone who overcame due to the stigma is much easier than for someone who is addicted.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on June 25, 2017, 03:32:03 PM
True.
The help needed for someone who overcame due to the stigma is much easier than for someone who is addicted.
So maybe breaking the stigma is the way to go
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:33:26 PM
So maybe breaking the stigma is the way to go
Did it should be harder to help him since he will not have overcome? I don't understand your reasoning.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 03:51:09 PM
Kruma fruma logic. Crawl back into your hole in the sand and stay there. There is an issue, stigma or not, which is not being addressed.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 03:59:40 PM
Kruma fruma logic. Crawl back into your hole in the sand and stay there. There is an issue, stigma or not, which is not being addressed.
That is a convincing argument ::) must have come from a lot of deep thought.

Looks like you imagined me saying that it should not be addressed. What would be the best way to address it?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:05:20 PM
That is a convincing argument ::) must have come from a lot of deep thought.

Looks like you imagined me saying that it should not be addressed. What would be the best way to address it?
Read through the thread. Its been laid out quite clearly. Saying that the stigma is helpful is probably the worst possible thing you can say. It shows a callousness that is unbecoming of a Jew.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:14:59 PM
Read through the thread. Its been laid out quite clearly. Saying that the stigma is helpful is probably the worst possible thing you can say. It shows a callousness that is unbecoming of a Jew.
That is an emotional argument not a logical one. If it is helpful to some then it is callous to the those who would be helped by it if it is removed.

If this:
Plenty of people hold themselves back for various reasons including stigma.

Then that means it is helpful for those plenty of people and by removing it you would be taking someone who was doing pretty okay and destroying their life by removing what was the barrier to their becoming addicted. That is pretty callous to throw them under the bus.

Your refusal to see that does not mean that anyone who does feels there is no problem as you keep on doing. That is something purely in your imagination. I have never sadi such a thing or even hinted to it no matter how many times you make straw man arguements like this one.
Your refusal to admit that there is a problem without scientific evidence when the boots on the ground are telling you all you need to know is indeed telling. Keep your head in the sand. Keep finding excuses why you wont believe this or that fact on the ground.
I feel the most callous thing to do is to refuse to see this logical conclusion of what you yourself have said.
It is all a fine balance. If there are those who will be helped by removing the stigma then that is an argument to remove it. The issue is that as you agreed the stigma itself has a very positive side to it in that it prevents some from needing the help in the first place. If you remove the stigma it will help some who need it but also create more need for the help. This is all the logical conclusion of what you said.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:24:33 PM
You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:27:27 PM
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:31:24 PM
You argue as if there is still a debate to be had. When you have issues such as this the lowest commom denominator must be that the benefit of removing the stigma far outweighs any possible benefit you would have from keeping it. Thats not an emotional argument. Thats a rational well thought out and proven argument. You can keep thinking what you wish. The blood of those who refused to seek help because of the stigma is on your hands though.

Tell your story to the children of a mother who refused to go to rehab because she didn't want to ruin her kids chance at good shiduchim. She instead chose to die and have people have rachmunus on her yesomim. You can verify that one story...and continue to allpw the stigma to continue. Their blood is on the hands of those who perpetuate the stigma.
Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:33:35 PM
Yet you continue to make only emotional arguments without presenting ANY rationale or proof. If the blood of those who did not seek help is on my hands for saying there should be a balance, the blood of those who became addicted due to removal of stigma will be on yours. That is very mean of you to not care at all about more people becoming addicted. Imagine how many lives can be ruined by that.
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

You are correct. We should ostracize all who seek help and atigamtize them and their families. They should all be forced to move to an Ir Miklat and be banned from our communities. I agree totally. You have convinced me.

Youre probably the head of the Vaad le'mishmeres tohar hamachne, right?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on June 25, 2017, 04:34:05 PM
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.

And that person who never starts because of the stigma is not worthy of our consideration?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:34:27 PM
Your statement have proven that you have zero understanding of addiction. You think a silly thing like a stigma can stop someone who has started down the path towards addiction. The only one it helps, maybe, is the person who never starts.
That is very true that it will help only the person who never starts. Halevai it should work to prevent anyone from starting. Do you really think that there are no people who overcame their taava to start by their being a stigma? That is why keeping a balance is so important unless the purpose is to keep the rehab centers busy. We are much better off with fewer people starting.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:36:01 PM
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.
All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that? Or do you mean a stigma against seeking help? I think the real stigma is against the addiction itself and that people refusing to seek help is coming from that. The answer to that may be to have people understand that there is a much worse stigma to remaining addicted than there is to getting help. I do not know the answer to that. It is part of the need balance.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on June 25, 2017, 04:37:09 PM
How many lives can be ruined by removing a stigma to seek help when someone is addicted? Are you listening to yourself.

The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances.  In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:38:42 PM
All of those for whom the stigma helped them overcome an urge to start down that path. Do you have numbers for that?
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on June 25, 2017, 04:39:43 PM
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.

Because they can't be quantified they are not worthy of our consideration?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:41:31 PM
The stigma to seek help is an unfortunate byproduct of the stigma of abusing substances.  In an ideal world, the stigma of abusing substances would remain in full force, and it would be clear to everyone that despite that stigma, the cost of avoiding help is worse than what people will think.
So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess? Do you frown when you see a 15 year old smoking? Do you condone the balabus who thinks its cool to smoke his e-cig at the chasunah reception. No. Of course you dont. Because you dont recognize the addictive behavior until it has begun. So your talk of stigma before one begins is nonsene.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:42:06 PM
You cant prove that numerically. And because you cant quantify it youre making it bigger than it really is. The hallmark of an addict is that they rarely if ever anticipate the consequences of their actions.
Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:45:52 PM
So do you stop bochrim at weddings, even if theyre over 21 from drinking to excess?
If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening. If it were a wedding where I had the authority to do so I would remove the liquor.
Do you frown when you see a 15 year old smoking?
Absolutely!
Do you condone the balabus who thinks its cool to smoke his e-cig at the chasunah reception.
No I vilify it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:46:09 PM
Am I? If it can't be quantified then maybe even I am not making it big enough? If your arguement is so rational and proven like you say then you should be able to offer SOME rationale and proof instead of telling me I have blood on my hands. That sounds like the Dem argument obout Obamacare, not a well reasoned proof.
You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:47:29 PM
You cannot quantify the number of people who have not started a behavior because of a stigma. Now I'm unclear what stigma you are talking about. The stigma that getting help causes your family "name" to be sullied is what is being discussed. Stigma as a prevention is basically throwing your kid out when he or she is OTD. So what exactly are you advocating?
Is it the going for help that has a stigma or the fact that they are an addict and need the help?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:49:40 PM
If I could I would. As it happens I am not at that many weddings where it happens even though I know that it does. How should someone stop it if it is happening.
Stigmatize that family, the rav hamachshir, the caterer, the hall. Take away the bottle theyre hiding in the coatroom. Demand that the bar close and not serve anyone who appears intoxicated. There is plenty you can do. You stand by an wring your hands saying "what should I do?"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
Is it the going for help that has a stigma or the fact that they are an addict and need the help?
אין בית אשר אין שם מת. So having an addict is one stigma. Seeking help is another.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:53:55 PM
Stigmatize that family, the rav hamachshir, the caterer, the hall.
That I do.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 25, 2017, 04:56:57 PM
Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

Yes, if cv she succumbs, it will be the "stigma" to blame.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:58:29 PM
אין בית אשר אין שם מת. So having an addict is one stigma. Seeking help is another.
I would think that is only fear that people will know about the addiction problem. This would mean it is the fear of the stigma of having been an addict which is preventing these people from seeking the needed help. The strategy for that may be to remove the stigma of being a recovered addict and not
break the stigma associated with addiction.
We should glorify those who OVERCOME addiction and respect them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 04:59:40 PM
Here is a recent reoccurring and typical scenario: Parents of daughter at HIGH risk of serious drug addiction (i.E.. emotional issues, rebellious, no family or school support, basically living on streets, zero self esteem etc etc etc) will not allow her the help she needs because it involves a "goyisheh program"...

Yes, if cv she succumbs, it will be the "stigma" to blame.

That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not
the stigma associated with addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 05:03:44 PM
That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not
Once again you seem to think emotional issues and addiction and medical causes behind emotional issues are all separate issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 05:04:46 PM
Once again you seem to think emotional issues and addiction and medical causes behind emotional issues are all separate issues.
Please explain. I know of so many people who have family members getting help for various emotional and psychological disorders that I do not see there being a major stigma about that in Lakewood. Of course other communities may not be like this.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 25, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
That to would be the stigma of getting help for emotional issues etc not
Huh? it's the stigma associated with a kid at risk.
It's denial as to the very real mortal danger that their child is in.

Same stigma

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
Most if not all addicts suffer from some form of emotional illness whether its self esteem issues, abuse, neglect, mental illness etc. The addiction is a coping mechanism to numb the pain. There are medical issues as well that can lead to the emotional issues i.e. chemical imbalances in the brain. So what exactly are you stigmatizing?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 25, 2017, 05:15:56 PM
Huh? it's the stigma associated with a kid at risk.
It's denial as to the very real mortal danger that their child is in.

Same stigma
Said very succinctly. Your stigma is the thing preventing realization that there is an issue. Its a self perpetuating monster.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2017, 05:16:11 PM
Huh? it's the stigma associated with a kid at risk.
It's denial as to the very real mortal danger that their child is in.

Same stigma


Denial and stigma are not the same thing. Denial can and does happen even where there is no stigma at all. Stigma can be a cause of denial. That does not mean that denial must be caused by stigma. The denial that a parent has if a child is c"v at risk is often guilt and denial of their own failings whether real or imagined. Even if it is not due to anything the parent did wrong which may often be the case they will still feel that guilt.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on June 26, 2017, 03:01:24 PM
From Whatsapp: In the last week we lost 3 young souls to the war with drugs. A 30 year old girl from Flatbush. 22 year old boy from Monsey and a 22 year old girl from Boro Park. I know that people want to keep it quiet - I, Zvi Gluck, ask that we make noise. Lots of it. Maybe if we make more noise, people will get the help they need.  Sadly, many people are looking for help, but can't afford it. And it isn't as popular to pay for someone's rehab as other worthy causes. Let's work together and change that. Let's break the stigma associated with addiction. Let's get people help. And let's stop talking about overdoses and start taking about how people are getting help.


Israeli sites are pushing this with names and pictures! Does that help the cause?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 03:07:45 PM

Israeli sites are pushing this with names and pictures! Does that help the cause?
Humanizes it. Not an abstract person. If done with consent of the families i dont see an issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 03:10:13 PM

Israeli sites are pushing this with names and pictures! Does that help the cause?
"וידבר ה' אל משה אחרי מות שני בני אהרן וגו'" - מה ת"ל היה רבי אלעזר בן עזריה מושלו משל לחולה שנכנס אצלו רופא אמר לו אל תאכל צונן ואל תשכב בטחב בא אחר ואמר לו אל תאכל צונן ואל תשכב בטחב שלא תמות כדרך שמת פלוני זה זרזו יותר מן הראשון לכך נאמר אחרי מות שני בני אהרן
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elya on June 26, 2017, 03:10:34 PM

Israeli sites are pushing this with names and pictures! Does that help the cause?
Chareidi sites?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on June 26, 2017, 03:12:56 PM
yes

This is a comment on that site


אפתח בתנחומים כנים למשפחות השכול...

קשה לדבר בעת הזו ובכל זאת ממקומי כמטפל שמלווה בני נוער למעלה מעשור אגע בנקודה אחת משמעותית בעיני היכולה להסביר את התופעה הכל כך קשה לצערי.

אני רוצה להתייחס לנושא הבדידות ומשמעותה בחיי היוצאים בשאלה ואם אני אדייק את דברי אז היוצאים מן הקהילה!!!

כאשר נער מתבגר בוחר לצאת מהמרחב הקהילתי ובכך לנתק את עצמו מחיי קהילה (אני שוב מדגיש את התייחסותי ליציאה מן הקהילה ולא ליציאה בשאלה משום שהדיון כאן נוגע במצב הנפשי של היוצאים בשאלה ולא במצב הרוחני שלהם) הוא מוצא את עצמו מאוד מהר במצב של בדידות נפשית תוך אישית עמוקה מה שבסופו של יום לצערנו עשוי להוביל לאובדנות.

אני אסביר:

ישנם מספר מצבים במערך הנפשי המתייחסים למילה הנגזרת מן השורש ב.ד.ד. ומשמעותה בחיי האדם.

ראשית נפריד בן מצב של אדם בודד לעומת בדידות.

אדם בודד: הנו מצב נתון בו אדם נמצא לבד במרחב החיים, הוא פשוט הוא נעדר את האנשים שחיים לצידו, כמו אדם הנוסע לחו"ל ואין לצידו חברים או מכרים כעת, או אדם שבחר להתבודד מחברת אנשים.

בדידות לעומת זאת מתייחסת למצב נפשי בו האדם הנתון במרחב החברתי יחד עם אנשים, חברים שהוא מכיר חש חוסר שייכות לאנשים ולחברה אליה הוא אמור להשתייך.

כאן נכנסת חלוקה בין מצב של:

1. בדידות אישית ותןך אישית לעומת: 2. בדידות בין אישית.

בדידות אישית ותוך אישית: מבטאת מצב נפשי קשה של בדידות בו האדם חש מנותק רגשית מעצמו ואיננו חובר לחלקים הרגשיים שבתוכו, מה שמזמין מצב של דיסוציאציה (ניתוק רגשי) בו האדם הולך ודועך נפשית למצבים פתולוגיים כדיכאון קליני מז'ורי עמוק, מה שבסופו של תהליך עשוי להוביל לאובדנות.

בדידות בין אישית לעומת זאת מספרת לנו על מצב נפשי פחות גרוע מבחינה זו שהאדם הנתון בבדידות מנותק רגשית 'רק' מהמרחב הבין אישי קרי: הקהילה, חברים וכד', אך עדיין הוא מחובר לחלקים הנפשיים רגשיים של עצמו, מה שמבטא את היכולת לחבור למרחב בין אישי בדוגמת קהילה או חברה חדשה בה הוא יחוש שייך.

מצבים נפשיים אלו מלמדים על הטרגדיה הנוראה של 'היוצאים בשאלה' וכפי שדייקתי היוצאים מן הקהילה.

מה שמתבקש במצב זה הנו:

1. התערבות קהילתית של ראשי הקהילה: בה ידונו בחלופה קהילתית 'ליוצאים בשאלה' או מן הקהילה על מנת לאפשר שייכות לחברה כל שהיא בכדי למנוע מצב של חוסר שייכות ובכך לקרב את הבדידות אל חייהם של היוצאים מן הקהילה!

2. מערך קהילתי לשמירה על קשר עם משפחות היוצאים מן הקהילה קרי: הורים אחים ואחיות ושאר בני משפחה קרובים ורחוקים, על מנת לאפשר את חייהם של היוצאים מן הקהילה גם ליום שאחרי, כאשר הם חשים ריקנות תוך אישית עמוקה למצב החדש בו הם נתונים.

ריחוק מחיי קהילה ומשפחה מזמין ריקנות תוך אישית המובילה לבדידות בין אישית ומחריפה לעיתים לבדידות תוך אישית מה שמסביר את תופעת הסמים והאובדנות כאמור.

א. כמענה לריקנות הנפשית: נמצא את נטילת הסמים המשמשת מפלט מן הריקנות הבין אישי והתוך אישית.

ב. כמענה לבדידות הבין אישית: נמצא את החיפוש אחר שייכות וכאן כל 'הדרכים כשרות' למצוא שייכות ובית, מה שבא לידי ביטוי ב

1. הימצאות בכל מקום: (תנאים תת אנושיים, מקומות שפלים וחסרי משמעות).

2. בכל חוג של אנשים (עבריינים, הומלסים, אנשים עם חוסר זהות נפשית או מינית).

3. וחבירה לאנשים הזמינים להם בכל שעה (פעם לחבר מן העבר, פעם סתם מישהו שמצבו זהה לשלי, או סתם עובר אורח) מה שמסכן אותם מאוד.

ג. כמענה לבדידות התוך אישית: נמצא את תהליך האובדנות כמענה לחוסר אונים הנרכש כאמור.

אני מקווה שראשי הקהילות בשיתוף עם הרבנים וגורמים מקצועיים יתנו את דעתם על 'המגפה' של הדור ושמה בדידות!!!

על מנת למנוע מקרים אלו בעתיד...

אסיים שוב בתנחומים למשפחות: ומחה ה' אלוקים דמעה מעל כל פנים, שלא תדעו עוד צער לעולם.
[/pre]
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Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 03:50:34 PM
Chareidi sites?
Link?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 03:54:16 PM
Link?
Until it can be verified that it was disclosed with the approval of the family maybe it should be kept to PM
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Mordyk on June 26, 2017, 04:03:03 PM
Until it can be verified that it was disclosed with the approval of the family maybe it should be kept to PM
too late for that  was going around on all groups.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 04:04:03 PM
too late for that  was going around on all groups.
believe it or not there are people who are not members of groups.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on June 26, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
believe it or not there are people who are not members of groups.

Solely rely on DDF

But I think the point he was trying to make is that it's not L"H.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 04:12:49 PM
Until it can be verified that it was disclosed with the approval of the family maybe it should be kept to PM
Meh, I knew it was kikar or bhoil etc. Saved me the Google time.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 04:16:57 PM
Anyway, I like the suggestion in the article. How about a stadium event to save our children from this??? (Or is it only the handful of kids going to tzhal that matter?)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on June 26, 2017, 05:30:58 PM
Anyway, I like the suggestion in the article. How about a stadium event to save our children from this??? (Or is it only the handful of kids going to tzhal that matter?)


Stam OTD isn't propaganda for the shita.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 26, 2017, 05:38:24 PM
Stam OTD isn't propaganda for the shita.
I hear, but maybe they can be used as pawns by the soinim or mechablim?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 05:40:38 PM
Stam OTD isn't propaganda for the shita.
Stam mishegoim are the shita
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on June 26, 2017, 05:51:24 PM
Denial and stigma are not the same thing. Denial can and does happen even where there is no stigma at all. Stigma can be a cause of denial. That does not mean that denial must be caused by stigma. The denial that a parent has if a child is c"v at risk is often guilt and denial of their own failings whether real or imagined. Even if it is not due to anything the parent did wrong which may often be the case they will still feel that guilt.
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 06:04:56 PM
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.
Maybe that is what is being "pushed' by you but not others who want to remove the stigma.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 06:11:01 PM
So then why bring stigma into this conversation? Whats being pushed is Publicizing that there is a real issue in our community and we need to stop being in denial. As you said, it doesn't necessarily remove the stigma.
When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on June 26, 2017, 06:37:13 PM


When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

thats first point is not a stigma, its either being clueless, or ill-advised.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on June 26, 2017, 06:40:37 PM

thats first point is not a stigma, its either being clueless, or ill-advised.
By labeling something like that "goyish" you stigmatize it.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 26, 2017, 07:14:37 PM
By labeling something like that "goyish" you stigmatize it.
This is something we are definitely in full agreement about
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: BP16 on July 04, 2017, 07:50:05 AM
And it's in the NY Post!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 07:52:37 AM
And it's in the NY Post!
http://nypost.com/2017/07/04/heroin-has-infiltrated-the-hasidic-community/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 04, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
When there is a הקפדה on going to 12 step programs because theyre "goyish" or held in church halls. Or when people look down on participants in such programs instead of recognizing that those people are יחידי סגולה,we have a stigma that is a problem.

I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 09:44:48 AM
I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction.
There isn't, but there are heterim to go into a church's social hall for things much less important than curing addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 09:55:48 AM
I'm not aware of the heter to be oveid Avoda zara to cure addiction.
...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:08:25 AM
It'a worth knowing that the efficacy of 12 step programs is disputed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
Quote
Alcoholics Anonymous is famously difficult to study. By necessity, it keeps no records of who attends meetings; members come and go and are, of course, anonymous. No conclusive data exist on how well it works. In 2006, the Cochrane Collaboration, a health-care research group, reviewed studies going back to the 1960s and found that “no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or [12-step] approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems.”
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 10:11:48 AM
It'a worth knowing that the efficacy of 12 step programs is disputed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
It works 100% of the time for the people that continue to go to it
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:12:56 AM
It works 100% of the time for the people that continue to go to it

That's like saying it works 100% of the time for people it works for.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 10:13:36 AM
Can someone make a wiki of excuses for addicts not to get help?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 10:14:23 AM
That's like saying it works 100% of the time for people it works for.
Nuance is not your strong suit. Huge difference from What i said to what you said.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:16:20 AM
Can someone make a wiki of excuses for addicts not to get help?
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 10:17:01 AM
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.
There is NOTHING which works for EVERYONE.
Doing NOTHING works for NO ONE>
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:22:05 AM
Nuance is not your strong suit. Huge difference from What i said to what you said.
The personal attack did not enhance your argument.  Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse.  AA did not work for them.  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?  How many times must they go back before exploring other options?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
There is NOTHING which works for EVERYONE.
Doing NOTHING works for NO ONE>
You've misunderstood me. I am not advocating for addicts not to get help.  I just said that it's worth knowing that the 12 step program doesn't seem to work for everyone. There are other options.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 10:26:12 AM

SHould I just reply back with my original response to that post of yours? Of course it doesn't work for everyone and of course there are other options.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 04, 2017, 10:36:12 AM
SHould I just reply back with my original response to that post of yours? Of course it doesn't work for everyone and of course there are other options.
I'm sorry for stating the obvious.  I have a relative who dispared of recovery after trying AA multiple times.  He was unaware of other options.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 10:45:31 AM
I'm sorry for stating the obvious.  I have a relative who dispared of recovery after trying AA multiple times.  He was unaware of other options.
This?
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 04, 2017, 11:16:51 AM


  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?

Not arguing that it doesn't work for everyone, but the people it works for generally continue to go to meetings regularly for years and years after they become sober. And it does work for a lot of people, and saves their lives. It also makes their lives more meaningful and fulfilling, due to the spiritual angle, which, among other benefits, helps prevent relapse
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
The personal attack did not enhance your argument.  Many try AA and drop out, often after a lapse.  AA did not work for them.  Is it because they stopped going to meetings?  How many times must they go back before exploring other options?
Relapse = choice made
Anyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart.
Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 11:50:18 AM
Relapse = choice made
Anyone i know who stuck with any 12 step program and went back after a relapse was succesful. Rehab is a good jumpstart.
Also, any relapse that occurs is because the person was not using the tools of the program by avoiding people places or things that can lead to such relapse.
Why is that more of a choice made than the original addiction?

According to your own theory that some people are predisposed to addiction, what percentage of those are also predisposed to being unable to commit to the 12 step program?

Like everything else, it works for those that it works for.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 12:09:31 PM
Nobody wakes up one day and says I want to be an addict today. But once you've found out that you have an issue it's on you to recover. אונס vs מזיד
And I don't understand what predisposition has anything to do with being able to commit.

Your last statement is almost correct...It works for those that work it. Most relapses from my experience come from complacency amd failing to rigorously stick to the program. In one of the fellowships it says that one recovers by bringing about a progressive character change. One does this by following the 12 steps and incorporating them in yoir daily life. Therr is no magic pill in 12 step programs or any other recovery option. Its a long road and it takes work that the weak-willed are often not willing to put in.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2017, 12:17:22 PM
Being weak willed can sometimes be what allowed the addiction to start.

I don't think we are really disagreeing here.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 04, 2017, 12:20:50 PM
Being weak willed can sometimes be what allowed the addiction to start.

I don't think we are really disagreeing here.
You obviously have no clue about willpower and addicts. Weak-willed or strong willed does not cause the addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 05, 2017, 06:57:33 PM
...and here we go. 12 step programs are not avodah zara. Neither do they require belief in another religion. Where the meetings are held, even if there is avodah zara present, wouldnt come to the level of yehoraig. Stop perpetuating this myth. It doesnt serve anyone.

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 05, 2017, 07:07:51 PM
I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 05, 2017, 07:13:23 PM
You're saying that, but I'm not buying it wholesale.  Are there any published teshuvos?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 05, 2017, 07:15:41 PM
You're saying that, but I'm not buying it wholesale.  Are there any published teshuvos?
I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

And there are jewish sponsored AA groups and other Anonymois groups that have no religious message at all. In fact GA 12 steps mention G-d twice and they refer to G-d of ones own understanding.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 05, 2017, 07:16:43 PM
I believe you can call Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twersky and he can cite them to you chapter and verse. Search out his videos on YouTube. They would do you some good. Buy his book Addictive Thinking. Ill try and find some links to his youtube material.

He's not a posek.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 05, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
He's not a posek.
Why not? He has semicha. And i didnt say he is the posek. I said he can quote you psak.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 05, 2017, 07:21:42 PM
Ask Rav Elya Brudny who spoke recently at the Amudim event. Is he enough of a moreh horaah for you?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 05, 2017, 07:27:40 PM
I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

What do you see that is Christian in that list?

If you want to understand the 12 steps from a Jewish perspective, here is a great book.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Our-Understanding-Spirituality-Addiction/dp/1602801533

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 05, 2017, 07:30:49 PM
What do you see that is Christian in that list?

If you want to understand the 12 steps from a Jewish perspective, here is a great book.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Our-Understanding-Spirituality-Addiction/dp/1602801533

In it he quotes Bill W (one of the founders of AA) who rejected the idea that the 12 steps are connected to any religion, but explained that every person can understand amd apply them in the context of their beliefs.
Addictive Thinking: Understanding Self-Deception https://www.amazon.com/dp/1568381387/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_bAxxzbEHACPY8

This too.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 06, 2017, 09:55:16 AM
Want to have a competition over if you can find more 12 steps books and articles with jewish authors or if I can find more with Jesus in the title?

https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Jesus-Spiritual-Emptiness-Addiction/dp/0830734988
https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Steps-Jesus-Christ-control/dp/0979876109
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/the-12-steps-as-adapted-by-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints
http://overcomersoutreach.org/blog/sharing-jesus-with-my-12-step-friends/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 10:01:25 AM
Want to have a competition over if you can find more 12 steps books and articles with jewish authors or if I can find more with Jesus in the title?

https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Jesus-Spiritual-Emptiness-Addiction/dp/0830734988
https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Steps-Jesus-Christ-control/dp/0979876109
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/the-12-steps-as-adapted-by-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints
http://overcomersoutreach.org/blog/sharing-jesus-with-my-12-step-friends/
And your point is?

Your contention was...

I'm skeptical. You are sitting in a church, being given a religious message by Christians. 

ETA: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

You've just been shown that your premise is wrong.

And just a note, your signature is offensive in the context of this thread.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on July 06, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
http://rccbaltimore.com/rcc/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/THE-TWELVE-STEPS-AND-JUDAISM.pdf
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 10:15:21 AM
http://rccbaltimore.com/rcc/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/THE-TWELVE-STEPS-AND-JUDAISM.pdf
I had never seen that before. Thank you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 06, 2017, 10:21:07 AM
And your point is?

Your contention was...
You've just been shown that your premise is wrong.

And just a note, your signature is offensive in the context of this thread.

I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 10:47:54 AM
I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.
By "Christian" do you mean it was founded by Christians? Because, as you pointed out there are no references to Jesus or Christ.

Together with the 12 Steps there are 12 Traditions which clearly set forth that there is no connection between AA and outside enterprises, including any organized religion.
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.
2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
3. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
4. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
5. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.
6 Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
7. An AA group ought never endorse, finance or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
8. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
9. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
10. AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve
11. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of  press, radio and films.
12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Going into a church santuary for Pikuach nefesh does not need a psak. I distinctly recall a reform temple in Manhattan that was renting space in a church meeting hall for High Holiday services and there was a Hatzolah call during Kol Nidre at "St. Paul's Church". Heard it with my own ears.  As Rabbi Dr. Twersky properly pointed out and I have stated up above, the dearth of Jewish facilities that are willing to host "Anonymous" meetings does not inherently mean that AA is Christian.

By church do you mean sanctuary or meeting hall?

Also, if you're familiar, are R' Yisrael Salanter's 13 Middos Jewish concepts? I mean, they were only misappropriated from a yiddish translation of Benjamin Franklin's writings. But heck its held out as Kodesh Kodoshim in the yeshiva world.

What is it that you are really questioning here?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 11:14:34 AM
I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic. 

I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like this
Go to an open meeting and stop basing your closed-minded views on what you read on the internet. Oh, i forgot, theyre all held in the church sanctuary with Jesus staring down at you in graven images and blood spattered artifacts.

Really, youre doing people who need help a real disservice by perpetuating this false belief. Maybe next time in in Boston ill take you to a non-church meeting right downtown.
is the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 11:32:31 AM
I do think that is a fair question and the idea of getting spiritual guidance from a CHristian in a church does seem strange. In that setting one can easily imagine some deviating from the exact script and focusing on Christian spirituality. On the other hand, these are cases where we should be looking very hard for leniencies. I can see Rabbonim preferring other rehab routes, but sometimes these types of programs have the easiest availability and, other than these issues, the lowest barriers to participation. It ends up becoming a complex shaila. I think I have some maare mekomos that I remember and will try to share if I find them.

The best way to deal with these questions will be to deal with them directly. They are legitimate questions even assuming that they do have answers. To ridicule people asking questions like thisis the real disservice and will lead some to believe that maybe there isn't a real answer but only sarcasm and ridicule.

ETA: the later answers are dealing with this much better and more substantive.
Spiritual guidance offered at 12 step meetings are supposed to be devoid of religious affiliation. "The word spiritual can be said to describe those characteristics of the human mind that represent the highest and finest qualities such as kindness, generosity, honesty and humility." GA Combo Book

As far as rehab is concerned, I am not a believer that Rehab is the only solution. It is great to get someone into rehab which is a good jumpstart as it can offer an opportunity to detox/clean break and isolates them from everyday distractions that can lead them back to the addiction. However, in practicality, without continued treatment, whether it be 12 step programs, out-patient or in-patient mental health care, private psychotherapy and the like, the likelihood of recidivism/relapse is extremely high. 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the failure to realize that this is Pikuach Nefesh. Chillul Shabbos D'Oraisa, as in any other Pikuach nefesh situation is warranted. How can you differentiate this from Hatzolah? I dont think there is a single rav who would tell you that going into a church for Pikuach nefesh is not allowed because Christianity is Yehoraig V'al Ya'avor. There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Anyone that says that 12 step programs are the only solution is wrong. 12 step programs are the maintenance program that, coupled with therapy and other work that is required, will keep one abstinent and recovered.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 11:38:41 AM
There is no requirement in any "A" program to believe in Christianity, even if its spoken of and takes place in a church. More so, when that in fact is not the case.

So again, I ask what is the issue?

Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 11:47:02 AM
Once it is a spitual program being given by Christians in a church it will lead people to ask questions. The best way to address those question is to show them "look R Moshe said it is okay" and not to debate the specifics of whether i is or isn't a shailo.
R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 06, 2017, 12:01:38 PM
R' Moshe died in 1986. What was posted above was from 1993. So who, since 1993, would you suggest to be a good enough Posek for you to rule on this. Once again I ask, when the foremost authority on addiction (in and out of the Jewish Community), Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski, who has no skin in the game, and is a musmach says its allowed and required why do you need someone else?

I have heard from non-religious people in 12 step programs that the Rebbe (for those who need that authority) stated emphatically in the 1970's that frum people should go wherever they need to go to get help for their addictions. I do not have a source for that, yet.

Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shwarmabob on July 06, 2017, 12:04:50 PM
http://dinonline.org/2014/08/17/entering-church-basement-for-jews/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 12:05:05 PM
Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.
Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 12:09:55 PM
http://dinonline.org/2014/08/17/entering-church-basement-for-jews/
Everything i said above.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility  you have no alternative.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 12:10:57 PM
Poskim in the U.S. today?  I would think this question should go to Dayan Roth for the chassidim, and to Rav Dovid Feinstein for the litvaks.  In Canada, Rav Shlomo Miller.
Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 06, 2017, 12:12:27 PM
Can you please phrase rhe question that you would like to be asked. I will go into Dayan Roth with your exact question. I had Rav Reuven in my car not too long ago and we discussed going to meetings at length.

Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA?  Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 12:13:15 PM
Definitely along these lines. Rabbi Dr. Twerky may be the foremost authority on addiction but he is not considered a foremost authority on halacha. The question isn't convincing me. I BH do not have this issue and neither do any of my family members. Rabbi Dr. Twerski may have a long list of tshuvos from R Moshe, R Shlomo Zalman, R Elyashiv, R Wosner, the Titz Eliezer, etc which discuss this and are matir. Having that information available will be a much more effective argument since the vast majority would simply defer to their opinion.
At best this was a hidden issue which would never have generated a written psak in the lifetime of those you mention. You know of many such situations.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 12:15:03 PM
Is it permitted for someone who is addicted to alcohol or narcotics to do the 12 step program with AA?  Do you have any interest in publishing your decision so that people will be able to find it without having to ask the Rav, since they may be embarrassed?
BL'N i will speak with his son or my neighbor who is on his bais din and try to get a written psak.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 12:16:39 PM
At best this was a hidden issue which would never have generated a written psak in the lifetime of those you mention. You know of many such situations.
There are many more hidden issues which are discussed in their seforim. I actually would be quite surprised to not find any discussion of this in any tshuvos seforim.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 12:18:34 PM
There are many more hidden issues which are discussed in their seforim. I actually would be quite surprised to not find any discussion of this in any tshuvos seforim.
Rav Moshe was known to not write certain Piskei Halacha. And even soe of those he wrote are not included in the new editions :-)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 12:21:00 PM
Rav Moshe was known to not write certain Piskei Halacha. And even soe of those he wrote are not included in the new editions :-)
I understand and that is partially why I am not referring to any specific machaber just tshuvos in general. One good place to look would be the seforim on medical issues. I will try to check there.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 06, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
I understand and that is partially why I am not referring to any specific machaber just tshuvos in general. One good place to look would be the seforim on medical issues. I will try to check there.
Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 02:28:19 PM
Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..
As a tactical matter you will be much better off with a psak about this case directly.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
Some Marie mekomos to start with - u can look at tosfos avoda Zara 27b shayni.. etc..
There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 02:51:26 PM
There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.
No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 06, 2017, 02:51:48 PM
There is no mention of Christianity, Jesus etc. in 12 step "refuah"

I now think I understand. When a goy writes God you automatically define it as his religion. Even when he qualifies it as "of your understanding". I think the fear is that Jews are not familiar with G-d and will be forced to actually face the fact that the abstracts which are taught in our yeshiva system today do not comport with the realities of life.
Aygart said he wants to research, I posted a starting point of what I believe to be a pertinent sugiya.

In no way was I implying that there is anything wrong with going to 12 step in a church...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
No you are missing the boat. This is not about qualms based on real knowledge of what happens or the importance of it. It is based on ignorance. You will not get anywhere by arguing over the nitty gritty of it since they are not knowledgeable enough to have a real discussion about it. That is why a tosafos won't get you anywhere either. A psak, especially in writing, from the well known poskim will be worth much more because they will defer to the authority. This is purely a tactical issue. Don't get involved in the argument at all.
Going to work on that psak.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 03:07:14 PM
Everything i said above.

When Bobov and Satmar and Belz and, and, and...decide to allow space for 12 step programs in their facilities AND the stigma of going to such programs is removed (big AND) then you have alternatives. Until such time as you can do 90 in 90 without going to a church facility  you have no alternative.
Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer :() went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 06, 2017, 03:18:03 PM
I don't know how to remove my signature only for this thread.

My point is this: 

The 12 step program is a Christian program, and the meetings are typically in a church.  I do concede that the steps themselves reference G-d rather than Jesus or Christ. I do not know whether the concepts are Jewish (e.g. asking G-d to remove your imperfections), but are probably not themselves avoda zara.

In that context, I think I would ask a shaila.  That's why I queried if there are any published teshuvos on the topic.
I've been to AA meetings for course requirements  (yeah yeah u can skip the jokes already been made) in both church Meeting rooms and in regular business meetings.
I consulted with a rebbe that I believe you are machsiv and if I recall it correctly it was a complete non issue to him. also don't think I heard the word God even once sometimes the references "a higher power whatever you perceive that as"
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 03:21:48 PM
Sorry for taking this a bit off topic, my oldest brother (at this point already a victim of this silent killer :() went a good few years ago to those programs and meetings, my family lives smack in the middle of chassidsha town and the entire neighborhood knew exactly what was going on with him (yea he made some noise on the street) (when the yankees lost a game) and my mother did not kick him out of the house, did not hide at all the fact that he was getting the help he needed and was pretty openly proud of him that he was able to keep sober for like 2 years
Great that he got help but i guarantee there was a stigma attached to him
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 03:34:10 PM
Great that he got help but i guarantee there was a stigma attached to him
Stigma of course! but did that stop my parents and the many other parents from satmer bobov belz etc. that my mother was in touch with getting the help those boys needed absolutely not! 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 03:41:57 PM
Stigma of course! but did that stop my parents and the many other parents from satmer bobov belz etc. that my mother was in touch with getting the help those boys needed absolutely not!
Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 03:46:24 PM
Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!
+1000000000000000000000
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 03:51:21 PM
+1000000000000000000000
Good fo them!!! Kol hakavod!!!
Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore :(, as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!! >:( >:(
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 06, 2017, 03:53:53 PM
Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore :(, as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!! >:( >:(
Yes, a terminal disease will do that.

Thats why prevention and awareness is key.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 06, 2017, 03:57:38 PM
Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore :( , as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!! >:( >:(
:'(
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 03:57:53 PM
Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore :(, as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!! >:( >:(
Nebech

Prison, insanity or death.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: David Smith on July 06, 2017, 04:01:09 PM
Unfortunately my brother (and some of his friends) (that i know) are not around anymore :(, as if they were lined up waiting NEXT TO GO!! >:( >:(
BDE. May 'ה give you and your family strength.
 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 04:06:04 PM
Nebech

Prison, insanity or death.
What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 04:08:42 PM
BDE. May 'ה give you and your family strength.
 

Umein and thanks!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2017, 04:21:45 PM
What about prison, NYU treatment (insanity), prison again (for selling prescribed drugs) and then found on yom tov death in some shelter apt. or whatever they call it! and that's after AA meetings, programs and therapy
Too painful to even imagine.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Bukboy on July 06, 2017, 04:29:51 PM
Too painful to even imagine.
Shouldn't of go into details.
I think i smoked too much ;)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 06, 2017, 04:49:19 PM
Shouldn't of go into details.
I think i smoked too much ;)
You created an added level of awareness that makes it real!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 06, 2017, 04:50:18 PM
You created an added level of awareness that makes it real!
+100000000
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Shua on July 07, 2017, 10:14:07 AM
http://5tjt.com/10-days-5-deaths/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2017, 01:43:43 PM
If this was cancer there would be an event yom tefila in Yankee stadium.
The death toll is rising. Anyone have any solutions?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 12, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
If this was cancer there would be an event yom tefila in Yankee stadium.
The death toll is rising. Anyone have any solutions?

I'm sure if there was a definitive (or easy) solution, it would be applied.

In the meantime, we should all be aware of ourselves, and not live our lives (where it comes to relationships and Yiddishkeit) like:

many people that look like they're working, but are actually sleeping and operating on autopilot.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 02:09:36 PM
If this was cancer there would be an event yom tefila in Yankee stadium.
The death toll is rising. Anyone have any solutions?
Teshuva...oh...and making more excuses for addicts not to get help.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2017, 02:09:57 PM
If this was cancer there would be an event yom tefila in Yankee stadium.
The death toll is rising. Anyone have any solutions?
Is this death toll greater than that from cancer?  Or do you mean because it is affecting younger people more?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
Is this death toll greater than that from cancer?  Or do you mean because it is affecting younger people more?
Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research).
Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.
On the other hand...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 02:31:30 PM
Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research).
Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.
On the other hand...
Amudim.org
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on July 12, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
Amudim.org
Amudim is a start, but the funding to help these kids pale in comparison to that of chai lifeline etc.. Try getting funding to help a kid pay for much needed therapy or rehab, its extremely scarce and difficult. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 03:10:15 PM
Amudim is a start, but the funding to help these kids pale in comparison to that of chai lifeline etc.. Try getting funding to help a kid pay for much needed therapy or rehab, its extremely scarce and difficult.
As opppsed to those other organizations that can and do get funding, besides their fundraising.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2017, 03:10:18 PM
Yes it is definitly greater amongst younger ppl in our communities. (Per my unscientific research).
Yet we have a chai lifeline dinner this evening, and a bike run, and support for families, and rccs to help with medical costs etc ect.
On the other hand...
To be fair, Chai lifeline deals with sick people of all ages and their entire families. RCCS also is dealing with a wide range of ages. There is
Amudim.org
which BTW is making an event in the mountains in the near future. Also, as you have written earlier, Amudim weighs very carefully to find the right balance of publicity and awareness vs. avoiding issues which have been shown to arise from over-publicity. An event in Yankee Stadium may not be appropriate in this instance.

Is there more to be done, almost certainly, the question is exactly what since a proper balance is extremely important. I do not have the answer to that. I am happy that there are professional who know more than me who are making those decisions.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 03:31:37 PM

avoiding issues which have been shown to arise from over-publicity

Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2017, 03:43:21 PM


To be fair, Chai lifeline deals with sick people of all ages and their entire families. RCCS also is dealing with a wide range of ages.
lol
Addiction affects all ages. More prevalent amongst the Young, but cancer is more prevalent amongst the old. So it all evens out...

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2017, 03:43:57 PM
Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.
I am talking about in the world in general. The War on Drugs has been discussed many times by psychologists and many have shown that is publicity was its failure. In the other hand awareness is important. It is all a balance. These events seem to be a great start in building awareness but making something in Yankee stadium may not be appropriate here. Do you disagree with this?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 12, 2017, 03:48:57 PM
Here you go again...what issues? Can you please once and for all provide a list of such issues and known victims of such issues? We're all big boys and girls here. Can you please be clear and provide source material and case studies to back you up.

I can't help but jump in. This argument is pointless. You both will go round and round in circles. I will say that @aygart has been nothing but fair. Although you are asking him for source material, and he has provided link to articles showing that his concerns exist and are real, you yourself have never provided any proof or backing to your viewpoints. What you have done is consistently put words in his mouth and made unfounded and serious accusations against him.

Your clearly have an emotional connection to this issue, and that is commendable. G-d bless you and all those who do their utmost to help their fellow man. But there's no need to endlessly beat up on aygart just because his entirely reasonable opinion differs slightly to yours.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 04:06:09 PM
I am talking about in the world in general. The War on Drugs has been discussed many times by psychologists and many have shown that is publicity was its failure. In the other hand awareness is important. It is all a balance. These events seem to be a great start in building awareness but making something in Yankee stadium may not be appropriate here. Do you disagree with this?
The War on Drugs was and remains a farce. I'm not one of those that stood outside the internet asifa and protested for sexual abuse awareness. No one has proposed an awareness event other than Amudim and they cant fill up Yankee Stadium. You say they're doing a good job with the balance, I agree. So why cant we get an Amudim awareness event into Yankee Stadium? Because THAT is too much publicity?


Your clearly have an emotional connection to this issue, and that is commendable. G-d bless you and all those who do their utmost to help their fellow man. But there's no need to endlessly beat up on aygart just because his entirely reasonable opinion differs slightly to yours.
As stated above I do and I believe so long as we say this has to be handled with kid gloves it will never get better. I apologize if he felt beat up. Thanks for your advocacy, I'm sure he can handle himself though.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2017, 04:40:54 PM
No one has proposed an awareness event other than Amudim and they cant fill up Yankee Stadium. You say they're doing a good job with the balance, I agree. So why cant we get an Amudim awareness event into Yankee Stadium? Because THAT is too much publicity?

It might be and Amudim may feel that way as well. I am still not sure we even disagree at all. Even if we do it is not a very significant difference. "Handling with kid's gloves" is semantics and depends on what is meant by it. If it means thatthe issue needs to be confronted head on the it is true. If it means that we need to make events in Yanke Stadium then it may not be.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 04:52:13 PM
It might be and Amudim may feel that way as well. I am still not sure we even disagree at all. Even if we do it is not a very significant difference. "Handling with kid's gloves" is semantics and depends on what is meant by it. If it means thatthe issue needs to be confronted head on the it is true. If it means that we need to make events in Yanke Stadium then it may not be.
We dont disagree on the issue, only the method of addressing it. I say scream חי וקיים and you say shhhhhhh.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 12, 2017, 05:07:22 PM
https://www.unidy.org/malky
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 12, 2017, 05:15:37 PM
We dont disagree on the issue, only the method of addressing it. I say scream חי וקיים and you say shhhhhhh.
Not quite shhhhhh but also not screaming.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 12, 2017, 07:12:42 PM
https://www.unidy.org/malky
henche sharing a charidy campaign! we've truly made strides
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 12, 2017, 07:13:02 PM
Not quite shhhhhh but also not screaming.
round and round we go
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 12, 2017, 07:26:00 PM
henche sharing a charidy campaign! we've truly made strides

Did not.  Has none of the aspects of charidy
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 07:28:42 PM
round and round we go
Still no suggestions.

I heard this great idea for an Olympic sport for liberals...synchronized hand-wringing. Maybe we can beat them to the punch and develop that to combat this scourge.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 12, 2017, 07:34:20 PM
I dont know what to "do" but unlike cancer, this is a preventable disease. 
I mentioned a yom tefila (a prayer gathering, not a demonstration) because of the feeling of total hopelessness I felt about this situation when I was forwarded a picture of another sweet looking young boy, the latest victim...  Raising money for the levaya...

The life of pain that these parent now have live is incomprehensible..

One thing is certain. We are not doing enough.. (and the reason is that many of the best and brightest askonim are afraid to be tarnished by the stigma. They won't touch it.. )


Remember when the Jewish observer put out the kids on the fringe edition? Caused massive awareness and change in the community...
Something similar is definitely in order.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 12, 2017, 07:36:00 PM
Still no suggestions.

I heard this great idea for an Olympic sport for liberals...synchronized hand-wringing. Maybe we can beat them to the punch and develop that to combat this scourge.
I agree with you just  not with the pointless circle you 2 go over and over again
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 12, 2017, 07:36:22 PM
round and round we go
Not quite shhhhhh but also not screaming.
We call this hedging.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 16, 2017, 12:19:44 PM
Going to work on that psak.

Any update on this?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 16, 2017, 12:22:09 PM
Any update on this?
Have not as of yet. I'm willing to personally take anyones gehinnom if they go to a meeting in a church until i can produce a psak. Rav Elya Brudny is said to have a psak in hand. I'm waiting to get that one as well.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 16, 2017, 02:44:22 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170716/09de17f5b89bb6c1204994a6fb01b774.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 16, 2017, 03:41:38 PM
Whoever made the call to kick her out after she had been accepted should be permanently barred from any influence over the education of children.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 16, 2017, 04:34:42 PM
Whoever made the call to kick her out after she had been accepted should be permanently barred from any influence over the education of children.
At the face of it this sounds right, but I would not make such a statement without knowing all of the facts from more than just the family's point of view.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 16, 2017, 05:03:38 PM
At the face of it this sounds right, but I would not make such a statement without knowing all of the facts from more than just the family's point of view.
You are correct. I should have prefaced with “If this is accurate.. “
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 16, 2017, 06:24:14 PM
At the face of it this sounds right, but I would not make such a statement without knowing all of the facts from more than just the family's point of view.
Kids get kicked out of schools all the time. It's not a big deal to the mosdos.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 16, 2017, 06:27:52 PM
Kids get kicked out of schools all the time. It's not a big deal to the mosdos.
Though from what I have seen in the name of various Chassidishe and Litvishe leaders, no school should kick out a child unless they have verified that the child will be accepted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 16, 2017, 07:38:37 PM
Though from what I have seen in the name of various Chassidishe and Litvishe leaders, no school should kick out a child unless they have verified that the child will be accepted elsewhere.
Meh. That's just academics. Even when they do that, they don't necessarily take the care to make sure the kid doesn't feel like a dog...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 17, 2017, 12:20:19 AM
Kids get kicked out of schools all the time. It's not a big deal to the mosdos.
There is a massive difference between kicking a kid out because of his behavior and what appears to had have happens here.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 12:22:28 AM
Rabbi YY Jacobson addresses the 'leadership' and addiction in this clip, portion at 28:00 minutes in, he says we have this year, alone 120 young women and men in the torah observant community.
It goes untl 37:00 minutes. Well worth listening to for 9 minutes.

Link: http://bit.ly/RabbiJacobsonSchoolLeadershipAddictionIssue

people worshipping the system vs. the system is there to promote life, (not as traps to promote death, he says...)

There is a massive difference between kicking a kid out because of his behavior and what appears to had have happens here.
Here, Rabbi Jacobson said it was 3 things (eating in a pizza shop, buying a friend a $20 gift, and 'nivul peh', and that's why she was kicked out. They did not allow even one week to find another school. This affected her terribly.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 17, 2017, 12:30:51 AM
There is a massive difference between kicking a kid out because of his behavior and what appears to had have happens here.
Would the same person kicking out a child (or teenager), whether because of academics or behavior, kick out their own child under the same terms?

I once heard from someone who was a melamed for many years, that anyone who doesn't unconditionally love each and every child he teaches, doesn't belong in chinuch!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 17, 2017, 02:47:31 AM
Rabbi YY Jacobson addresses the 'leadership' and addiction in this clip, portion at 28:00 minutes in, he says we have this year, alone 120 young women and men in the torah observant community.
It goes untl 37:00 minutes. Well worth listening to for 9 minutes.

Link: http://bit.ly/RabbiJacobsonSchoolLeadershipAddictionIssue

people worshipping the system vs. the system is there to promote life, (not as traps to promote death, he says...)
Here, Rabbi Jacobson said it was 3 things (eating in a pizza shop, buying a friend a $20 gift, and 'nivul peh', and that's why she was kicked out. They did not allow even one week to find another school. This affected her terribly.
He tells a very different story than the above letter even though both are meant to be the perspective of the parents. One wonders it it's the same story.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 17, 2017, 08:44:34 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170716/09de17f5b89bb6c1204994a6fb01b774.jpg)

http://matzav.com/video-rav-shteinman-yiras-shomayim-its-gayva-gayva/

Not exactly the same case, but I'm pretty sure the "gaveh, gaveh" applies to these parents too.

Edit: here's a working link to the video
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 17, 2017, 09:25:06 AM
I once heard from someone who was a melamed for many years, that anyone who doesn't unconditionally love each and every child he teaches, doesn't belong in chinuch!

With that standard you might as well shut the schools down, as you won't find enough teachers...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on July 17, 2017, 09:59:33 AM
The story portrayed in the above letter sounds crazy and hard to believe.

To the subject of kicking kids out of schools, my heart goes out to every parent going through hard times with their kids.

But there is a second side to this subject. Do you know a kid in your child's class or on your block that is educating your child with things that are unexcepted to you? Do you have a family that is having a bad influence on your child? How do you cope with it?

Schools have a very tough job to balance bad form very bad.They have a class of 30 kids with clean neshmos and one kid starts teaching them real bad things whats the fine line they can say we cant let 30 kids down to TRY saving this one struggling kid.

It is so hard to call but there is 2 sides to the burden laying on the school.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 17, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
The story portrayed in the above letter sounds crazy and hard to believe.

To the subject of kicking kids out of schools, my heart goes out to every parent going through hard times with their kids.

But there is a second side to this subject. Do you know a kid in your child's class or on your block that is educating your child with things that are unexcepted to you? Do you have a family that is having a bad influence on your child? How do you cope with it?

Schools have a very tough job to balance bad form very bad.They have a class of 30 kids with clean neshmos and one kid starts teaching them real bad things whats the fine line they can say we cant let 30 kids down to TRY saving this one struggling kid.

It is so hard to call but there is 2 sides to the burden laying on the school.
moral equivalency... obviously schools have to be concerned about a bad influence but there are ways to handle it properly and ways to handle it improperly. I've seen (a rare) case of handling it properly and it doesn't look like these cases and when done properly the parents of the kicked out child will almost always understand and respect the schools decision
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
Though from what I have seen in the name of various Chassidishe and Litvishe leaders, no school should kick out a child unless they have verified that the child will be accepted elsewhere.
The chazon is said that throwing out a kid is dinay nefashos... ניבא ולא ידע מה שניבא....

Today every two bit street corner (shteeble basement) pot seller is pushing heroin...
For $5 a kid can get a quick high that can addict forever.... And put him in a matzav of pikuach nefesh...

So watch the kids and don't ever kick them out onto the streets. These days it's just way too dangerous.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 17, 2017, 10:56:50 AM
Today every two bit street corner (shteeble basement) pot seller is pushing heroin...
For $5 a kid can get a quick high that can addict forever....

Maybe part of the solution is to go after those who make these substances so easily accessible.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 17, 2017, 11:01:08 AM
Maybe part of the solution is to go after those who make these substances so easily accessible.
+1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2017, 11:13:15 AM
Maybe part of the solution is to go after those who make these substances so easily accessible.
Yeah. The DEA and local PD are ON IT!

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 17, 2017, 11:28:29 AM
Yeah. The DEA and local PD are ON IT!
And the mesirah police are stopping us from reporting those tbat are responsible.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 17, 2017, 11:42:16 AM
The chazon is said that throwing out a kid is dinay nefashos... ניבא ולא ידע מה שניבא....
Not so sure it's a case of לא ידע.

As a matter of fact, this might not even be נבואה, but rather חכמה to see a few steps ahead.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2017, 11:54:53 AM
Not so sure it's a case of לא ידע.

As a matter of fact, this might not even be נבואה, but rather חכמה to see a few steps ahead.
It was impossible to imagine the magnitude of the danger a few short years ago...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 17, 2017, 11:57:22 AM
It is impossible to imagine the magnitude of the danger today (because they dont (all) admit there is a problem, yet)
FTFY
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2017, 11:59:56 AM
And the mesirah police are stopping us from reporting those tbat are responsible.
I was being kinda sarcastic. We as a community can't really get involved in the broader war on drugs.. (yes, terminating the frum drug pushers should definitely be done, but it won't necessarily save that many lives).

We do need to be made aware of the dangers of drug addiction though...

Eg. I'm sure one of the groisah roshei yeshiva who kicked out a boy a few weeks before the end of the year (for going to CVS!!) would have waited till the end of the year, preserve his dignity, and just maybe maybe saved his life... But he didn't. Assuming he didn't take the "dinay nefashos" thing literally.. wasn't aware..
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: gozalim on July 17, 2017, 01:10:19 PM
And the mesirah police are stopping us from reporting those tbat are responsible.
it should  hinestly be balanced with din rodef...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 17, 2017, 01:23:11 PM
it should  hinestly be balanced with din rodef...
Who's talking honestly here
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 02:05:21 PM
He tells a very different story than the above letter even though both are meant to be the perspective of the parents. One wonders it it's the same story.

it's possible that the second story about "yaffa" was another part of the story. i.e. the first day of school when she tried to attend the next school after she was kicked out of the first one.

I agree 100% about the concern of the influence of other children that could seep in via classmates, however this case was not including foul language, negative attitude, or intentional bullying or rebelling.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 17, 2017, 02:12:49 PM
however this case was not including foul language, negative attitude, or intentional bullying or rebelling.
We don't know all the details.

However, sending a kid home with no-where to go, has been shown to be דיני נפשות time and over again!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 17, 2017, 02:49:19 PM
We don't know all the details.

However, sending a kid home with no-where to go, has been shown to be דיני נפשות time and over again!

And the schools just do it again and again, for pettier and pettier reasons. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 17, 2017, 07:44:37 PM
The chazon is said that throwing out a kid is dinay nefashos... ניבא ולא ידע מה שניבא....

Today every two bit street corner (shteeble basement) pot seller is pushing heroin...
For $5 a kid can get a quick high that can addict forever.... And put him in a matzav of pikuach nefesh...

So watch the kids and don't ever kick them out onto the streets. These days it's just way too dangerous.

$5 to get high off heroin?
You sure they're not selling flour?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on July 17, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
$5 to get high off heroin?
You sure they're not selling flour?
It's not that expensive because the dealers know they will come back for the stronger stuff i.e. fentanyl
And most is mixed not pure
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 17, 2017, 07:48:46 PM
$5 to get high off heroin?
You sure they're not selling flour?
Even dime bags are now $20

Inflation
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 10:48:30 PM
I was being kinda sarcastic. We as a community can't really get involved in the broader war on drugs.....
.....
Eg. I'm sure one of the groisah roshei yeshiva who kicked out a boy a few weeks before the end of the year (for going to CVS!!) would have waited till the end of the year, preserve his dignity, and just maybe maybe saved his life... But he didn't. Assuming he didn't take the "dinay nefashos" thing literally.. wasn't aware..

if there was seriously an incident where a CVS visit was the reason for being kicked out, then there needs to be a policy of a 10-member elected board to make decisions on students expulsions rather than one single person making such a huge life-altering (or in this case, a life-or-death) decision.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 17, 2017, 11:01:39 PM


if there was seriously an incident where a CVS visit was the reason for being kicked out, then there needs to be a policy of a 10-member elected board to make decisions on students expulsions rather than one single person making such a huge life-altering (or in this case, a life-or-death) decision.

Oh there seriously was.. I personally know this first hand.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 11:06:22 PM

Oh there seriously was.. I personally know this first hand.

i've been in chinuch for many years, and I truly hope that this is not the entire picture, as it seems that this was a turning point, and possibly his 'last straw'.

 Even with 10 warnings, and even if he was meeting a girl there, and even if he was buying something, etc..... (all of which it seems is not the case), there would really need to be a clear meeting with parents, very straight forward understanding, and ideally waiting for a few more weeks until the end of school to do something so negative and so earth-shattering to a teenager...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 17, 2017, 11:14:55 PM
i've been in chinuch for many years, and I truly hope that this is not the entire picture, as it seems that this was a turning point, and possibly his 'last straw'.

 Even with 10 warnings, and even if he was meeting a girl there, and even if he was buying something, etc..... (all of which it seems is not the case), there would really need to be a clear meeting with parents, very straight forward understanding, and ideally waiting for a few more weeks until the end of school to do something so negative and so earth-shattering to a teenager...

Are you seriously surprised?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on July 17, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
Are you seriously surprised?
That's the really sad thing
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 17, 2017, 11:20:59 PM
Are you seriously surprised?

yes. I am surprised that someone did not line up another educational alternative before making a life-or-death decision such as this. What rov would allow this risk? Rabbi Dr. Twerski has been speaking for decades, and now also Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Y Horowitz, etc..., and it's becoming more clear that lives are at stake. Perhaps real decision making and full board administrative policies can help to prevent 10+ deaths similar to these from occurring next school year.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 17, 2017, 11:55:53 PM
yes. I am surprised that someone did not line up another educational alternative before making a life-or-death decision such as this. What rov would allow this risk? Rabbi Dr. Twerski has been speaking for decades, and now also Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Y Horowitz, etc..., and it's becoming more clear that lives are at stake. Perhaps real decision making and full board administrative policies can help to prevent 10+ deaths similar to these from occurring next school year.

I'm sad, but not remotely surprised.  Par for the course.  I'm sure they said he was "being mekalkel acheirim."
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 18, 2017, 12:51:27 AM
I'm sad, but not remotely surprised.  Par for the course.  I'm sure they said he was "being mekalkel acheirim."
we know that would NOT be Moshe Rabeinu's response, nor any other real leader, Rebbe,
especially in cases of life-or-death. This is a chinuch lesson for the class, too.

As Rabbi Jacobson says in the clip:
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 07:43:23 AM
https://hareiani.com/2017/07/17/how-the-gedolim-lost-my-faith/amp/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 18, 2017, 09:56:56 AM
https://hareiani.com/2017/07/17/how-the-gedolim-lost-my-faith/amp/
Come on. You're pushing a piece in which Avi shafran is representative of all gedolim? And gedolim only get there because they have power? You know better then to engage in bizui talmedei chachomim.
Yes, silence is an issue. No, that doesn't mean that there are no chashuva people in the world besides for Zvi Gluck.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on July 18, 2017, 09:59:05 AM
https://hareiani.com/2017/07/17/how-the-gedolim-lost-my-faith/amp/

HELLO?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Emkay on July 18, 2017, 11:15:50 AM
https://hareiani.com/2017/07/17/how-the-gedolim-lost-my-faith/amp/
The way he ended off ruined it all. He won't accomplish much with that attitude. The same way your cynicism to the people you don't agree with doesn't do much to endear you to others and help get a valid point across.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: theduke on July 18, 2017, 04:32:23 PM
we know that would NOT be Moshe Rabeinu's response, nor any other real leader, Rebbe,
In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...
My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.
This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on July 18, 2017, 05:02:17 PM
In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...
My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.
This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.
in Moshe Rabbeinus times, we had leaders like Moshe rabbeinu, until that's the case let's not expect our kids to be on par with that Dor.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 18, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
in Moshe Rabbeinus times, we had leaders like Moshe rabbeinu, until that's the case let's not expect our kids to be on par with that Dor.
You are taking that in only one direction while the argument goes both ways
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 18, 2017, 06:49:43 PM


In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...
My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.
This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

sigh....
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on July 18, 2017, 07:25:47 PM
You are taking that in only one direction while the argument goes both ways
Nah, these kids dont get enough credit, after all they're being raised by our generation. Remeber what they used to say about our generation when we were kids?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 10:28:58 PM
Come on. You're pushing a piece in which Avi shafran is representative of all gedolim? And gedolim only get there because they have power? You know better then to engage in bizui talmedei chachomim.
Yes, silence is an issue. No, that doesn't mean that there are no chashuva people in the world besides for Zvi Gluck.
I posted without comment. I can say that 2 individuals who are sitting in prison today because of people like this may actually be innocent. So please dont fault me for posting an article that may be relevant to the discussion in understanding  the feeling of disenfranchisement. Maybe it belonged in the interesting articles thread. I have no further comment on the article. Who said there are no other choshuva people? There are tons.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 10:42:48 PM
The way he ended off ruined it all. He won't accomplish much with that attitude. The same way your cynicism to the people you don't agree with doesn't do much to endear you to others and help get a valid point across.
Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 18, 2017, 11:09:38 PM
I posted without comment. I can say that 2 individuals who are sitting in prison today because of people like this may actually be innocent. So please dont fault me for posting an article that may be relevant to the discussion in understanding  the feeling of disenfranchisement. Maybe it belonged in the interesting articles thread. I have no further comment on the article. Who said there are no other choshuva people? There are tons.

Again, i posted without comment. Just tell me why its not a valid article explaining how someone loses faith in daas torah, albiet possibly for all the wrong reasons.
Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).
Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 18, 2017, 11:13:50 PM


Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).


I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 18, 2017, 11:16:28 PM

I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Conceded. Context dependant.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 11:17:29 PM
Posting without comment is a tactical endorsement, especially in this thread (or the politics one).
Disenfranchised kids is not a chidush. I personally spend many hours a day with several of them. I think we all understand their point of view, and can appreciate them without repeating their feelings that are counter to our hashkafa
So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day. Also, your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under tbe rug. Good job proving a point.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 11:18:25 PM

I disagree. I and many others have posted articles with which we do not agree.
Thank you. I thought i was crazy fot a second.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 18, 2017, 11:41:27 PM
In Moshe Rabbeinus times beis would give malkus with 2 edim and hasraa or makus mardus in other cases. One underlying issue in this generation is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Chas Vshalom to discipline a child in yeshiva these days...
My Rosh Yeshiva used to quote either the Chazon Ish or the Steipler (don't remember which) that we should teach children the concepts of schar vonesh and not be worried about scaring the child off learning about hell.
This doesn't mean to say that we should kick all bad kids out of school but we can't always baby everyone all the time and sometimes you need to put your foot down and accept that people make their own choices.

I've been a classroom teacher for several years, and I agree that consistent discipline is needed and of great importance and assists in raising successful, Torah observant Yidden.
However, the issues here are going to CVS when not during school hours, and the Klein parents saying that their daughter asked a question that was interpreted as nivul peh. These are NOT reasons to kick out vulnerable students in a life-or-death situation towards the end of the school year, regardless of the 'policy' of putting your foot down.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 18, 2017, 11:48:06 PM
So posting something here means i endorse it? Wow. I learn something new every day.
Like I said, context dependent. In the Interesting articles thread, no. In the politics thread, also no. In this thread, by you, who are a valiant and ardent defender of youth such as the one who wrote the article (for which I admire you), yes I took it as an endorsement. And I concede that it was clearly misplaced and I apologize.

your attempt at censorship is EXACTLY what has been argued here over and over as sweeping things under the rug. Good job proving a point.
I have no idea what you're referring to.

It's silly to quibble here, and I'm sorry if I am. We all agree that the silence, and sweeping issues under the rug isn't helpful. (we may differ on degrees) We all agree that helping struggling kids when they are 13 is a lot better than raising money for their rehab or c'v worse. And we are all searching for a solution. I just have a really hard time when it devolves into a denigration of Chashuva Yidden and Talmedei Chachamim, many of whom lose many more nights of sleep and shed many more tears than the average guy on his soapbox in the mikva.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2017, 11:59:06 PM
Apology accepted. Maybe i wasnt clear. Let me clarify. Denigrating Jews, good, better or otherwise, is counterproductive. I dont agree with the tactics. I do find value in the article in understanding the mindset and the level of frustration.

I can empathize as I'm going through hoops to get a written psak permitting attendance at "A" meetings in a church meeting hall or basement where there is no mention of Christian theology. Its dinei nefashos we are dealing with and no one wants to take a stand or has the guts to put it in writing for publoc consumption.

That being said i will never "out" those people. A federal appeals judge once told me, "Don't annoy the mind you're trying to persuade." Another person told me not to poke the bear. Combine those 2 statements and you have the beginning of a philosophy.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 19, 2017, 12:02:40 AM
many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2017, 12:06:57 AM
many years ago i took a one-week drivers ed course in a church classroom (not a worshipping room), definitely 100% okayed by the Rabbis. k''vch, something even more important.

The "AA" meetings are 100%-allowed by any Rabbi that I've spoken too, and definitely Rabbi Twerski has this in writing. It's dangerous to wait -- have him start right away.... Written specifically for this individual should be instant. In today's world, every day counts.
Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 19, 2017, 12:24:12 AM
Read upthread. They want specific rabbanim to cover their bases. According to those who want excuses to continue their addictions youre a sheigetz :-) and will burn.

rabbanim are not equipped for this. Crimes are beyond their control. When there is a deadly fire, we call 911/Fire department with hoses, trucks, ladders, and hydrant openers.
A 10-yr old already died from an opioid overdose. The victims will get younger if this isn't crisis isn't treated by professionals: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/officials-boy-10-among-youngest-victims-opioid-crisis-104352263.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: thaber on July 19, 2017, 12:32:03 AM
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba (http://dinonline.org/2012/06/19/entering-basement-of-church/). But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2017, 08:17:33 AM
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba (http://dinonline.org/2012/06/19/entering-basement-of-church/). But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.
I remember seeing R' Moshe's psak mentioned. I'm gonna pull that out again. I doubt the Rashba would have an issue with what we are discussing. That being said, the only value i did see in that article is the sympathetic feeling i have for the writer that is trying to get something done and cant get anyone to stick out their neck on a non-issue.

Addicts will find every excuse not to get help. They will deny there is a problem. They will say they have it under control. Short of going to rehab, which is extreme IMO and should only be done to jumpstart recovery, detox, and to seperate the addict from their regular environment, what other options are there? Therapy, which helps but only with CASAC trained therapists; self-control, which doesnt work alone; or 12 step meetings, which work in conjunction with self-control and therapy.

To give an addict an excuse is to give them additional kindling to fuel their addiction. We should be looking to find every leniency in the book to help them. A friend of mine once suggested writing a sefer on all the kulos we could rely on as opposed to the seforim that are out there that are always looking for the next level of chumrah. There is something to be said for that.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 19, 2017, 11:59:16 AM
pikuach nefech didn't help the Rashba (http://dinonline.org/2012/06/19/entering-basement-of-church/). But it's crazy that you're having a hard time.

Anyone know where the Rashbo is? Wondering if it is referring to the sanctuary, or anywhere in the building
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on July 19, 2017, 11:32:35 PM
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2017, 11:33:54 PM
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
Sounds absurd, doesnt it? And a psak din in writing will make that more palatable. Hear hear.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 12:26:38 AM
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
Sounds absurd, doesnt it? And a psak din in writing will make that more palatable. Hear hear.
+100
Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 12:28:58 AM
+100
Exactly, even those at risk for picking it up once can rest assured that it's actually a mitzvah to go there and heal. or even bring a friend there. Literally life-or-death.

I can totally see Rabbi Twerski walking someone there, and I'm sure that he has items of that nature in writing, as well. His son Rabbi Ben-Tzion Twerski may be a good person to reinforce how important this treatment and prevention is. We can even have our own AA in shuls/kosher places if we are smart. Prevention is key.
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 01:01:47 AM
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.

once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 01:04:31 AM
once we can treat a physical, chemical imbalance, or a predisposition to addiction with the same approach as a broken arm or sprained ankle that needs medical treatment, casting/wrapping/support/therapy/healing, and treatment plus prevention from future injuries, then all of Klal Yisroel can be more healthy and confident.

Keeping these conditions quiet and repressing them will only make shidduchim worse (if we can reach that age before becoming addicted or a victim), and can also harm and put at risk one's future children, family, and friends...
Exactly. Scariest issue not spoken about in shidduchim today.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 20, 2017, 08:10:12 AM
Never gonna happen because of the stigma. Shidduchim etc.

Did you ever hear of SAFE?  http://www.thesafefoundation.org/
They have meetings.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 08:12:53 AM
Did you ever hear of SAFE?  http://www.thesafefoundation.org/
They have meetings.
Of course. I know Ike D. Been there many times. Thats one location in a city of 8 million.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 20, 2017, 08:33:46 AM
Of course. I know Ike D. Been there many times. Thats one location in a city of 8 million.

So why do you say a kosher spot is "never" gonna happen?
If there's a kosher meeting that's been around for over a decade, there can be more.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 08:45:24 AM
So why do you say a kosher spot is "never" gonna happen?
If there's a kosher meeting that's been around for over a decade, there can be more.
1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.
2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.
3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.

 So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 09:03:31 AM
1. Thats a business that has made its place of business available for meetings, which supplements and brings new business all the time.
2. Its still in an out of the way location. Go there when meetings are held. Its downright frightening. Deserted industrial area.
3. In over a decade there is one you point to and a few others that i am aware of that you have not mentioned. By and large the concept of a "kosher meeting" (i suppose you mean non-church location) cannot happen within our community because of the stigmas spoken about upthread.


So when you can hold a meeting in one of the classrooms in Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park like the meetings that are held in certain non-orthodox establishments elsewhere in the city then i will say it can happen.

Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on July 20, 2017, 01:58:07 PM
Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?
It's not AA meetings but they- https://www.facebook.com/12Twenty5/
are right in Boro park
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 02:03:21 PM
What are "they". Dont tell me an Our Place type place. Because thats not what is being discussed here. We are not talking about OTD drop in centers. We are talking 12 step recovery programs.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 20, 2017, 02:05:37 PM
Exactly. This is where the education and prevention classes are needed, in addition to treatment classes.
We've had local Jewish AA meetings in a local Orthodox shul here, and possibly saved dozens of lives. Parenting classes may help, as well.

Camp XTreme has saved lives, Kosher rehabs in CA have saved lives.

Will it take a child of a "Bobov or Satmar or Belz in Boro Park" gezhe to ch'v get sick and/or pass away until they finally make local, Jewish classes?!?!?

And if so, then does this mean that their child is of greater value than the others who have already become victims?!?!?

And if so, then is this what it means to be a Jewish leader? To not address other members of the same community?

And to not address an epidemic that is certain to increase until preventions and treatments are as mainstream and non-stigmatic as an ace bandage or a cast/crutches for those who are injured?

Unfortunately even that would be swept under the rug.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
Unfortunately even that would be swept under the rug.

If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

On a similar note, if the leaders and rabbis are not seeing current facts the way they are, and it is almost like idolatry/avoda zara, Quote in this video "When you reject reality, you are rejecting the Author of reality."

Rabbis who can see the current state of individual's reality, regardless of how they got there, will encourage AA regardless of what room or building it is in. Emotional Sobriety is key towards accepting what Hashem is doing. Great points in this link by Rabbi Shais Taub: http://bit.ly/RabbiSTaubGodAndSobriety
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 03:07:39 PM
Our learned friend @aygart together with a good portion of society believes its a self-control issue, not a disease. There are judges who refuse to acknowledge that too and sentence addicts to lengthy jail terms for crimes committed as a ditect result of their addiction.
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 20, 2017, 03:12:05 PM
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Is self control a component in the cure for schizophrenia? If yes then is schizophrenia just a lack of self control, or a Bonafide mental illness?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 03:13:14 PM
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?

it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment.
I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 03:17:00 PM
Is self control a component in the cure for schizophrenia? If yes then is schizophrenia just a lack of self control, or a Bonafide mental illness?
What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
it's obviously a combination. You can have self-control, yet the more people who are in this 'mode' locally, the more it will spread. We see it already.

Also, it's a disease that people are much more tempted and susceptible to it. Cigarettes are both self-control and your environment.
I have no taayva to these things, yet for the people who do -- it rules their lives. (And yes, it's a disease that can be quit with self-control; it's extremely hard.)

I never argued that it is not a combination. That is what I meant by calling him out on his (very common when he describes anything I write on this subject) false absolute.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 03:30:53 PM
You are using a false absolute. Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 20, 2017, 03:33:56 PM
If these addictions or chemical imbalance issues are seen as broken arms that need a cast or strep throat that needs antibiotics, then they have the chance to be treated and healed. We can also teach how to prevent more of this just like we know what needs to be done to lower the risks and prevent strep/broken bones (when possible). Parents and balanced stable are key, as well. The leaders can promote it and make it a priority if/when they promote this education publicly.

I'm not sure how you're replying to what your quoted. All I said was that even if it happened (Ch"V) in their own families it's possible these leaders wouldn't change their stance.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 03:34:38 PM
Do you believe its a disease? Yes or no. No one chooses to have a disease. Its that simple. If you can grasp your head around that concept then i was wrong. If you say that for one second it has to do with self control then a cancer patient should control their bad cells too. If you differentiate between the diseases then yoir position is absolue on self control.
You answer first. From what I remember you have never yet given a straight yes or no or otherwise unequivocal answer in this entire thread.

Do you feel that self control is not a factor at all in the vast majority of addictions? If so how can a 12 step plan possibly help at all?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 03:36:35 PM
Disease that no amount of self control can help. It can be arrested but never cured.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
Disease that no amount of self control can help. It can be arrested but never cured.
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 03:50:26 PM
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?
Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 03:53:22 PM
Its not based on self control its based on a support system, attending meetings, changing ones lifestyle, character change, filling the void, admitting powerlessness over the disease, finding a Higher Power, listening to a voice other than ones own, taking an inventory both globally and daily, sharing your inventory of yourself with another person and ypur Higher Power, asking for help from ypir higher power to have your defects of character removed, Making a list of people one harmed, making amends to those people, seeking a better connection to God and helping others who still suffer.

So now that you know what 12 steps are about, do you want to stick to your self control garbage. Educate yourself before you make blanket statements.

And yes, pre-addiction self control MAY help. Most addicts are predisposed and are deeply flawed individuals who usually end up acting out in one way or another. There is no way to prove someone is an addict and because of self control didnt act on the addiction.
Every single one of those 12 steps are strategies to help with self control. They definitely don't change his chemical imbalance.

Either way, I only said anything about self control pre-addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 20, 2017, 03:58:54 PM
are deeply flawed individuals

Not saying it is one, but that sounds like a judgement.

They definitely don't change his chemical imbalance.

What do you know about neuroscience and what does and doesn't change brain chemistry?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 04:03:33 PM
Not saying it is one, but that sounds like a judgement.
Most addictions are borne out of character defects which come from something in the past. I dont personally care why one is an addict or find it important at all to know. I just know that addicts that follow the 12 steps regularly, encompass them in their lives, attend meetings regularly, use the tools of support that the programs provide are always successful in arresting their diseases progression and recovering.

If its a judgment to say that the seeking of a high is to cover up some pain in ones past, whatever high that may be, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, food, rhen im judgmental. It just my experience over the last 7 years being around addicts every day that has given me any of the insights i choose to share.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 20, 2017, 04:06:25 PM
Most addictions are borne out of character defects which come from something in the past.

I don't think trauma, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, or PTSD (to name a few) are character defects.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 04:09:26 PM
I don't think trauma, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, or PTSD (to name a few) are character defects.
You are looking at them as defects in a person. Thats not what i mean. They may be environmental defects that affected a person and 12 steps will help with those in conjunction with therapy and sometimes even meds.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 04:52:53 PM
What do you know about neuroscience and what does and doesn't change brain chemistry?
More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 05:26:05 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH_P_f4pjVAhVMNz4KHVOxBWYQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.niaaa.nih.gov%2Fpublications%2Farh40%2F64-75.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGbpHDOhRVzrk19Ttk5OXaaC3Lag

Twin, adoption, and family studies conclusively demonstrated that genetic factors account for 50 to 60 percent of the variance in risk for developing alcoholism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4545669/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH_P_f4pjVAhVMNz4KHVOxBWYQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.niaaa.nih.gov%2Fpublications%2Farh40%2F64-75.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGbpHDOhRVzrk19Ttk5OXaaC3Lag

Twin, adoption, and family studies conclusively demonstrated that genetic factors account for 50 to 60 percent of the variance in risk for developing alcoholism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4545669/

I don't believe in twin and adoption studies. Way too big of confounding factors.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 05:32:25 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH_P_f4pjVAhVMNz4KHVOxBWYQFghQMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpubs.niaaa.nih.gov%2Fpublications%2Farh40%2F64-75.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEGbpHDOhRVzrk19Ttk5OXaaC3Lag

Twin, adoption, and family studies conclusively demonstrated that genetic factors account for 50 to 60 percent of the variance in risk for developing alcoholism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4545669/

Also,  just because genetic factors exist doesn't make them the most important factor.

Most ppl with those genes don't become addicts
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 05:34:28 PM
Also,  just because genetic factors exist doesn't make them the most important factor.

Most ppl with those genes don't become addicts
I agree but do not have specific knowledge of percentages.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 05:38:09 PM
More than you may realize. EVERYTHING affects brain chemistry. That is what neuroplasticity is mostly about. Family support affects brain chemistry in a way that make self control easier, for example. If this is what is being referred to by chemical imbalance in the brain then everything I had mentioned as promoting self control similarly affects brain chemistry. My mentions of self control were never that we should simply tell an addict that they shoould have some self control contrary no matter what hvaces42's responses to me may lead you to believe. He simply does not grasp what I am saying.

Just this.

Your brain works via chemicals. If you have sad triggers, brain releasesurgery the sad hormones, and you feel sad.

Then some groisseh  genius scientist notices that depressed ppl have that chemical and derives thar the chemical causes sad instead of the order way around.

You're just lucky they didn't study burns and derive that burns are caused by neurons picking up pain signals, so the way to treat them is to numb the nerves
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 05:59:47 PM
What is self control?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:14:51 PM
What is self control?
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:20:26 PM
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)
Just say no, right?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:21:38 PM
Just say no, right?
If self control is the only aspect of it then yes.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:38:11 PM
If self control is the only aspect of it then yes.
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:39:17 PM
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?

Really well.  Most ppl dont use
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:40:38 PM
Nancy Reagan created that slogan for the war on drugs. How'd that work out?
Horribly. Shows that just telling people to have self control without creating an environment conducive to it or make it easier to exercise that self control or other factors is inadequate.

I think it will be very beneficial to you to make an effort to understand what someone is saying before arguing with them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:41:05 PM
Really well.  Most ppl dont use
Most did not use before that slogan either.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
Most did not use before that slogan either.

Ok, so how are you measuring then?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:42:21 PM
Ok, so how are you measuring then?
How did you measure this?
Really well.  Most ppl dont use
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:43:57 PM
How did you measure this?

But I was making the point that you can't measure just by pointing to a lot of ppl who use and say it failed.
Nor can you measure by pointing to a lot of ppl who don't use and say it was a success.

There's a million factors, and I doubt you could measure.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:44:57 PM
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control)
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhibitory_control), is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior) in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_function), self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal) [2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control#cite_note-Executive_functions-2)
Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:45:25 PM
But I was making the point that you can't measure just by pointing to a lot of ppl who use and say it failed.
Nor can you measure by pointing to a lot of ppl who don't use and say it was a success.

There's a million factors, and I doubt you could measure.
If the intent was to have drug use drop and that did not happen then it was not a success.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:48:13 PM
If the intent was to have drug use drop and that did not happen then it was not a success.

How do you know it didn't drop as compared to what it would have been.

Car deaths have gone up since seat belts were mandated.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:48:38 PM
Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.
Are you referring to someone who is already an addict? If yes then I fully understand that a 12 step program works by helping the patient have the inhibitions and self control he obviously did not have until then.
I think it will be very beneficial to you to make an effort to understand what someone is saying before arguing with them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:51:39 PM
How do you know it didn't drop as compared to what it would have been.
If it has no visible and quantifiable benefits such as affecting the trendlines we cannot consider it to be a success.

Car deaths have gone up since seat belts were mandated.
That depends how you measure. Is it as a percentage of riders or total number?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:51:52 PM
How do you propose teaching self-control and my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:53:10 PM
How do you propose teaching self-control and my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
To an addict? It seems that the 12 step program is fairly successful. Possibly in conjunction with other therapies and methods.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:53:27 PM
If it has no visible and quantifiable benefits such as affecting the trendlines we cannot consider it to be a success.
That depends how you measure. Is it as a percentage of riders or total number?

That's all exactly what I'm saying
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:54:20 PM
my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
Does it? Is the rate of "different perversions" as high as those not practicing abstinence outside of Catholic Schools?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:55:01 PM
That's all exactly what I'm saying
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:55:37 PM
To an addict? It seems that the 12 step program is fairly successful.
No to your theoreticall pre-addict
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 20, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
Does it? Is the rate of "different perversions" as high as those not practicing abstinence outside of Catholic Schools?
I'll send you a p.m. if I have to explain this one to you
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 06:58:11 PM
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 06:58:17 PM
No to your theoreticall pre-addict
I am not sure. On the other hand some studies have shown, and I have cited them previously in this thread, that there are some things which are advocated which can be detrimental to self control. Some attribute the failure of "Just say no" to exactly that. BTW, it is not "my theoretical pre addict" but yours.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 07:03:56 PM
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?

The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. Each day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

Just say no, right?
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

"just say no" works to say no to the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 07:04:07 PM
I'll send you a p.m. if I have to explain this one to you
I understand what you are referring to when you say "different perversions". My question is if the RATE of those engaging in these is the same as those not engaging in abstinence outside of Catholic Schools. Success cannot be measured by a standard of all or nothing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 07:06:35 PM
The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

"just say no" works for the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.

At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 20, 2017, 07:21:57 PM
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?

Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 07:25:33 PM
Something as vague as this with so many factors? Sounds apt right.
Why need to judge it anyway?
To know what to do in the future
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 07:41:29 PM
To know what to do in the future
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 20, 2017, 07:52:24 PM
+100

and so that the rabbis and the leaders understand the life-death risks, and that it's an increasing epidemic that goes beyond a self-control issue once it's in deep.
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 20, 2017, 07:54:13 PM
When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.
+1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
Yes it is extremely important that rabbonim understand this. I have used my affiliation with rabbonim here in Lakewood to advance this. I do feel strongly that much of the fault for those who do not understand and even sometimes seem callous when people discuss it with them respectfully lies at the feet of those who have use this topic as a weapon to attack yiddishkeit as a whole. It then becomes much more difficult to listen to a discussion on the topic with an open mind. They would now need to first get past the fear of being attacked. The same goes for many other issues such as various types of child abuse. When each case is used to attack yiddishkeit as a whole it prevents the issue from getting taken care of. THAT is what creates a stigma against those involved in helping the victims.

and THAT is exactly why we mentioned that if the Rabbonim would treat it as a physical condition as a broken arm, and have public treatments, prevention, and education, then this can be resolved better. Can Rabbi BenTzion Twerski help the Lakewood rabbonim see this?

edited to add this Robin Williams link. He had a mental illness that needed help. Mental illness also exists in Lakewood, Skver, Bobov, Satmar, etc... it also needs prevention, education, and treatment: http://popchassid.com/robin-williams-didnt-kill/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 20, 2017, 09:32:18 PM
At first glance I cannot find anything here i disagree with, other than possibly your characterization that after one failure they are doomed forever. I know many who have had a handful of cigarettes and never came close to addiction.

1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 21, 2017, 12:47:51 AM
1) no, they are not doomed forever, but the "Just say no" works for Phase #1 of pre-addiction. It's obviously much harder afterwards...

2) A 'handful of cigarettes' may be fine for some and they can go the next 50 yrs without issues. However, a 'handful of heroin', will possibly cause years of addition, financial issues, and high risk of death from of or tainted product, etc... So these are really the substances that we need to educate and obliterate. In public. These rabbis are hiding this. It's not a religion issue. Frum people have died.

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 21, 2017, 12:50:02 AM
2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? ...
.....

yes, there are people who don't realize the problem with heroin: The 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 21, 2017, 12:50:39 AM
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

Hence, say no to drugs.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 21, 2017, 12:54:04 AM
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.

Are you so sure of that?
Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?
And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 12:55:56 AM
yes, the 5 who died within 10 days where not educated from the start, and they did not realize the problem before they tried their first one.
I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 12:58:33 AM
Are you so sure of that?
Are there kids skipping all the gateway drugs and going straight to H?
And are there kids using gateway drugs that don't discuss or know anything about the higher level drugs and the risks involved? Or maybe they know exactly what it is, and because they're depressed or have some other issue they simply don't care?
Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 12:59:21 AM
Hence, say no to drugs.
Everything is a joke or a punchline to you.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on July 21, 2017, 01:08:05 AM
I disagree. They started with the "non-harmful" pot and graduates to hard drugs. It takes a huge step for someone to cook up a batch of heroin and be willing to stick a needle under their toenails or between their toes or even in their arm. Yes thats where they hide the first signs of needle use. Seen it with my own eyes. Track marks are a late stage indication of heroin use. For the life of me i cant understand a hashgacha organization giving a hashgacha on pot.

Correct. I wrote that line in order to answer yuneeq who wrote, "Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin?"

2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 21, 2017, 01:09:13 AM
Ask anyone, there are no gateway drugs. Pot is just recreational. Pot is the replacement for cool guys who used to smoke cigars to look cooler than the cigarette smokers. Where is the ban on smoking pot. Pictures of women are a problem, not pot use.

I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba.
Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 01:12:25 AM
I don't think pot is a "gateway" drug, as it is just a Siman (that something's wrong) not a Siba.
Something like prescription meds can be real gateway though. Regardless, my point was that anyone that's even just smoking pot tends to better educated about H and other hard drugs than regular folk.
In todays society its not a siman of anything anymore. I agree pills are where the danger really lies.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 21, 2017, 07:33:32 AM
2) Do we really need to educate that? Is there anyone that doesn't realize the problem with heroin? I mean I never heard one class about heroin but I as kid I could tell you that heroin is a big no-no. If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
Heroin is more readily available today the ever before.
It's there and in a moment of weekness, the week can succumb to only one quick taste... It's all it takes 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on July 21, 2017, 08:05:37 AM


If you taught me that heroin was so common then I could see my perspective as a kid changing.
This.  as had been shown scientifically

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 08:09:40 AM
Heroin is more readily available today the ever before.
It's there and in a moment of weekness, the week can succumb to only one quick taste... It's all it takes
Aftet a long slide into other drug use. No kid wakes up one morning and says "Let me tey drugs. Oh heroin is readily available let me stick a needle in me."
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 21, 2017, 10:05:12 AM
Everything is a joke or a punchline to you.

I regret you took it that way. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 10:08:09 AM
I regret you took it that way.
You regret that it could be taken that way. Dont worry about me so much.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on July 21, 2017, 10:25:30 AM
You regret that it could be taken that way. Dont worry about me so much.

No,  I don't really think it could be taken that way
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 10:29:39 AM
No,  I don't really think it could be taken that way
Im sorry, maybe its the emoji that confused me.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 21, 2017, 10:35:55 AM
You are looking at them as defects in a person. Thats not what i mean. They may be environmental defects that affected a person and 12 steps will help with those in conjunction with therapy and sometimes even meds.

No I'm not. You're the one who used the word character flaws. Since when are environmental defects character flaws?

Addictive behaviors compound to and cause character flaws (e.g. flaky, unreliable, isolating, lying etc.), but I don't think it's usually character flaws that lead to addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 11:20:21 AM
No I'm not. You're the one who used the word character flaws. Since when are environmental defects character flaws?

Addictive behaviors compound to and cause character flaws (e.g. flaky, unreliable, isolating, lying etc.), but I don't think it's usually character flaws that lead to addiction.
Lets try this again. Character defects are within every person. We are born perfect and somewhere along the way we develop attributes and defects. When faced with environmental issues, e.g. trauma, the coping mechanism in addicts is to drown the pain of the trauma in the addiction.
Low self esteem is a character defect. The coping mechanism is again to drown the feelings of worthlessness in the addiction. The 12 steps give one a mechanism to build character. To change the way they cope with issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 21, 2017, 11:30:46 AM
Low self esteem is a character defect.

Someone with low-self-esteem is a deeply flawed individual (your original statement that I objected to), let me go on the record saying that I'm personally offended :D
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 11:36:35 AM
Someone with low-self-esteem is a deeply flawed individual (your original statement that I objected to), let me go on the record saying that I'm personally offended :D
Maybe you need a 12 step program to help you with that.  Yes self esteem is a product of being told you're not good enough. It can be worked on and changed. It is a very deep character defect.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 21, 2017, 11:37:22 AM
What about being an argumentative contrarian on online forums. Is that a character flaw?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on July 21, 2017, 11:38:45 AM
What about being an argumentative contrarian on online forums. Is that a character flaw?
No, just a normal DDFer.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 21, 2017, 11:39:14 AM
What about being an argumentative contrarian on online forums. Is that a character flaw?
Absolutely. An i can admit it. Now lets see you admit your flaws.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Yehuda57 on July 21, 2017, 11:39:48 AM
Absolutely. An i can admit it. Now lets see you admit your flaws.
I prefer to look at them as character floors
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 21, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
I prefer to look at them as character floors
Deep
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: AsherO on July 21, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
What about being an argumentative contrarian on online forums. Is that a character flaw?

Deeply flawed individual who needs a 12-step program.  Totally.

/ducks
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on July 21, 2017, 12:23:03 PM
Maybe you need a 12 step program to help you with that.  Yes self esteem is a product of being told you're not good enough. It can be worked on and changed. It is a very deep character defect.
...or more commonly (from a theoretical standpoint, anyway), telling yourself you aren't good enough (for a variety of reasons).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: good sam on August 01, 2017, 09:50:32 AM
 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/61d1c35584a7c546db7d526db4f705a6.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/07/a-tisha-bav-message-from-zvi-gluck.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shwarmabob on August 01, 2017, 02:00:05 PM
My Message For Tisha Ba'v: Judge Ruchie Freier: Reflections From The Bench On Judging Our Children:
http://www.vosizneias.com/276361/2017/08/01/brooklyn-ny-reflections-from-the-bench-on-judging-our-children/ (http://www.vosizneias.com/276361/2017/08/01/brooklyn-ny-reflections-from-the-bench-on-judging-our-children/)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2017, 06:40:17 PM
https://youtu.be/eYyDIGEcxpU
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: elit on August 01, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
https://youtu.be/eYyDIGEcxpU
the saddest part is there are probably hundreds of not thousands of kids that habe similar stories. BH most have not ended where hers did
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 01, 2017, 08:16:47 PM
I think there is a real chance the Klein's can make a difference.
. But only if main stream media can report it, and they are not silenced by the mosdos heads who feel that they are on the hot seat... And are all tzadikim etc
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on August 01, 2017, 10:52:59 PM
https://youtu.be/eYyDIGEcxpU

Listening through it. Can't stop crying.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 02, 2017, 08:55:06 AM
http://forward.com/opinion/378788/its-time-to-admit-that-the-opioid-crisis-is-also-a-jewish-one/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 02, 2017, 08:57:54 AM
I think there is a real chance the Klein's can make a difference.
. But only if main stream media can report it, and they are not silenced by the mosdos heads who feel that they are on the hot seat... And are all tzadikim etc
ועמך כולם צדיקים...לעןלם ירשו ארץ
from all those tzadikim all we get are people in the ground

Its about time someone said something publicly. Kol hakavod to the Klein's.
Just dealt with a yeshiva who told a boy who is graduating from their own elementary school that he is not welcome in their high school because "he will drown here"...with no options offered. Then when he chooses a great place the old yeshiva tries to meddle because "s'past nisht" that their elementary graduate should go "there". Im disgusted.

Chinuch is not a business. Its hatzolas nefashos.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Mordyk on August 02, 2017, 10:16:24 AM
https://youtu.be/eYyDIGEcxpU
amazing how much courage these parents have. taking a tragedy and turning it to something which will hopefully end up saving people from the same fate
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 02, 2017, 11:06:41 AM
https://youtu.be/eYyDIGEcxpU
Couldn't stop listening, despite subpar audio quality, and seeing upfront how long this is.

Very powerful. Strong messages at the end regarding Chinuch. Though I have to disagree with him about this being an issue only at the extremes, negativity and rejection can leave a deep scar even with those that will seem OK. This is a chinuch issue (and not only for mechanchim, but also for parents, and everyone), words do mean something, words could not only kill, but they could maim. Sometimes it will be more obvious, sometimes it will be more serious, but in all cases, words can and do injur.  I heard once from an old time melamed who said, if a person doesn't love (unconditionally - if I may add) each and every child in the classroom as their own, that person shouldn't be in chinuch.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on August 02, 2017, 07:29:51 PM
http://forward.com/opinion/378788/its-time-to-admit-that-the-opioid-crisis-is-also-a-jewish-one/

Follow up to this;
http://forward.com/opinion/378897/i-wrote-about-the-opioid-crisis-in-the-jewish-community-the-response-was-ov/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Moshe123 on August 03, 2017, 10:57:08 AM
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 03, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Define drug related

ETA: "drug poisoning and drug related mental disorders" What does that mean?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ganizzy on August 04, 2017, 01:00:01 AM
Did it start then? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170804/35f17084e38e6c8b14926cced91fc986.jpg)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on August 04, 2017, 02:49:12 AM
Did it start then? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170804/35f17084e38e6c8b14926cced91fc986.jpg)
It's still under the carpet though
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shwarmabob on August 04, 2017, 01:42:53 PM
let me ask a stupid question: how did teens of our community who would drink and smoke in an earlier generation (not that I promote either chas v'shalom) move on to drugs? what changed?
I will duck now
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 04, 2017, 01:44:58 PM
let me ask a stupid question: how did teens of our community who would drink and smoke in an earlier generation (not that I promote either chas v'shalom) move on to drugs? what changed?
I will duck now
Huh? There's a widespread narcotic epidemic. Didn't you know this?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 01:47:44 PM
Follow up to this;
http://forward.com/opinion/378897/i-wrote-about-the-opioid-crisis-in-the-jewish-community-the-response-was-ov/
http://forward.com/opinion/378788/its-time-to-admit-that-the-opioid-crisis-is-also-a-jewish-one/
These pretty much lay it out. Prescription abuse abuse is the gateway. I would argue that weed is a gateway and will not duck.  I disagree with those who say its harmless or should be legalized.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shwarmabob on August 04, 2017, 01:47:57 PM
Huh? There's a widespread narcotic epidemic. Didn't you know this?
I am not debating the facts, questioning or G-d forbid belittling the tragedies. I am asking the "why?" "why now"?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 01:50:48 PM
I am not debating the facts, questioning or G-d forbid belittling the tragedies. I am asking the "why?" "why now"?
אם לא עכשיו אימתי
1. Prescription drugs became more effective in pain management.
2. Pain management became more common.
3. Addiction to pain medication became an issue.
4. Pain medication alone didnt provide the high anymore.
5. Heroin and fentanyl become the drug of choice to get to rhe higher high.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 04, 2017, 02:11:05 PM
אם לא עכשיו אימתי
1. Prescription drugs became more effective in pain management.
2. Pain management became more common.

3. Addiction to pain medication became an issue.
4. Pain medication alone didnt provide the high anymore.
5. Heroin and fentanyl become the drug of choice to get to rhe higher high.

I'm not so sure on the accuracy of 1 & 2.

I've been prescribed pain medication in the past, and took only the minimum necessary. I didn't enjoy the slight "high" feeling that came along with it. I was also prescribed same by a dentist, and though I had the prescription filled, didn't take even one. My son just had minor surgery and was prescribed pain killers, he was scared to take it. Eventually, he took one, but then felt he didn't need any more. I would guess that most people won't sell or give away any leftovers they have (I probably have quite a bit of leftovers at home, which I keep in case of emergency).

Doctors are very careful and hesitant in prescribing these nowadays, much more than 5 or 10 years ago. And there's a lot more oversight. I honestly doubt whether painkiller are the gateway (except when some really needed them for some time, and got addicted - which isn't common enough to make this into an epidemic).

Now weed is a totally different story. I can see how legalization, removal of stigma as something totally bad, etc. etc. could make that a very easy gateway.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
How many pain management centers were around 20 years ago and how many are there today?
Oxy wasnt around 20 years ago.

Yes regulation is finally catching up. Most doctors who used to prescribe pain meds can no longer do so without first having the patient go to pain management. Cross-referencing and watchlists for doctors and pharmacies are maybe 2 years old in NY. Mandatory eScript and doing away with hand written prescriptions is also less than a year old in NY.

I too went to the dentist and got tylenol with codiene,  of which i took exactly 2 and was done with the rest. The guy in shul who has oxy and percocet he refills regularly for his (no longer hurting) hip replacement and doesnt use and has been (quietly) looking for a buyer is the problem we have.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: koplonko on August 04, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
(I probably have quite a bit of leftovers at home, which I keep in case of emergency).
And if some teenager gets a hold of it...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 02:46:39 PM
And if some teenager gets a hold of it...
Or sells it to his friends for some extra cash...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 04, 2017, 03:13:37 PM
The guy in shul who has oxy and percocet he refills regularly for his (no longer hurting) hip replacement and doesnt use and has been (quietly) looking for a buyer is the problem we have.

Are you serious?

If this is real, I would ask a competent LOR what to do. My initial reaction is that this would almost qualify for דין רודף!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 04, 2017, 03:14:55 PM
And if some teenager gets a hold of it...
B.H. not an issue in my household. If there was ever any type of חשש דחשש of anything of the sort, it wouldn't be kept at home for a second.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 04, 2017, 03:15:49 PM
Or sells it to his friends for some extra cash...
My kids just come to Dad's ATM. (Not sure if  :) or  :( is the appropriate emoji for this).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 03:22:17 PM
Are you serious?

If this is real, I would ask a competent LOR what to do. My initial reaction is that this would almost qualify for דין רודף!
Im in the minority on thinking exactly the way you do. Everyone thinks he's kidding. I know he isnt.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on August 04, 2017, 05:21:23 PM
Are you serious?

If this is real, I would ask a competent LOR what to do. My initial reaction is that this would almost qualify for דין רודף!
What's the shaila? Of course he has din of a rodeph. He shouls be reported to the authorities asap.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 04, 2017, 05:35:23 PM
Im in the minority on thinking exactly the way you do. Everyone thinks he's kidding. I know he isnt.
If you know he's not, why not ask a competent LOR what to do, and ACT ON IT!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on August 04, 2017, 05:56:42 PM
If you know he's not, why not ask a competent LOR what to do, and ACT ON IT!
+1 You seem to be familiar enough with who understands these issues.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 04, 2017, 06:47:03 PM
+1 You seem to be familiar enough with who understands these issues.
He is not actively selling. He has a stash and he is shopping it. Its not as simple as it seems unfortunately. It never is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on August 05, 2017, 02:32:35 PM
He is not actively selling. He has a stash and he is shopping it. Its not as simple as it seems unfortunately. It never is.
Buy it and then report.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 05, 2017, 09:46:09 PM
B.H. not an issue in my household. If there was ever any type of חשש דחשש of anything of the sort, it wouldn't be kept at home for a second.
Mho, don't keep it at home. Period.
Treat it like lethal poisen.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on August 05, 2017, 09:57:19 PM
Mho, don't keep it at home. Period.
Treat it like lethal poisen.
Don't keep painkillers at home ?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 05, 2017, 10:16:37 PM
Don't keep painkillers at home ?
Not just sitting there. Use them as prescribed and then dispose.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: coralsnake on August 05, 2017, 10:28:54 PM
And if some teenager gets a hold of it...
Why do you think this is only a teenager issue?

B.H. not an issue in my household. If there was ever any type of חשש דחשש of anything of the sort, it wouldn't be kept at home for a second.
Yup. I'm sure nobody has ever been in your house who may be looking around for these things. And of course nobody in your family.  ::)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 05, 2017, 10:36:42 PM
Why do you think this is only a teenager issue?
Yup. I'm sure nobody has ever been in your house who may be looking around for these things. And of course nobody in your family.  ::)
+1

Many guests have raided medicine cabinets..

Much more common then most people imagine.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 05, 2017, 10:42:24 PM
+1

Many guests have raided medicine cabinets..

Much more common then most people imagine.
And coat pockets and hand bags for cash.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on August 05, 2017, 10:44:10 PM
+1

Many guests have raided medicine cabinets..

Much more common then most people imagine.
+1

We had a guest that raided the cabinets twice. 


Meanwhile I still believe in being able to have painkillers around as well as alcohol and more. 
 The idea is about raising your children well. 
If you know one of your kids has a problem that's a diff story.  Do what you need to do.

Though I do agree it's smart to get rid of pills when you're done with them. 


Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 10, 2017, 09:07:13 AM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1332829/mailbag-alcohol-drinking-yeshiva-camps-control-ignored.html


http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2017/08/lakewood-nj-teen-adult-alcohol-epedemic.html?m=1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 10, 2017, 09:18:44 AM
Many guests have raided medicine cabinets..

Much more common then most people imagine.
Make them off limits to guest then. I guess that would be a problem if only one bathroom.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on August 10, 2017, 09:46:54 AM
Make them off limits to guest then.

After the fact, yes.
Though many times you'd have no idea that they're addicted before they steal your pills.
And if it takes you a year to notice pills missing you might not have any idea who took them.

Quote
I guess that would be a problem if only one bathroom.

Even if you have a personal bathroom it can't be that hard to get a few minutes of separation if they're motivated enough.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 10, 2017, 09:49:47 AM
Even if you have a personal bathroom it can't be that hard to get a few minutes of separation if they're motivated enough.
Depends on the home like a tri-level.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 10, 2017, 10:00:09 AM
Make them off limits to guest then. I guess that would be a problem if only one bathroom.
Oldest trick in the book put a carboard up against the bottom or top shelf with it sticking out of the bottom or top and put marbles behind it. Close door and slide out cardboard. You will know exactly when someone opens the medicine chest.  ;D
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on August 10, 2017, 10:05:57 AM
Oldest trick in the book put a carboard up against the bottom or top shelf with it sticking out of the bottom or top and put marbles behind it. Close door and slide out cardboard. You will know exactly when someone opens the medicine chest.  ;D
What about the legit guest who is looking for a q-tip? Would be pretty embarrassing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 10, 2017, 10:08:15 AM
What about the legit guest who is looking for a q-tip? Would be pretty embarrassing.
Thats an anti-snooping mechanism for parties. Not for houseguests.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: henche on August 10, 2017, 10:16:37 AM
Thats an anti-snooping mechanism for parties. Not for houseguests.

Doesn't help to stop snooping.  Just means you'll know they did.  But if you just don't want them to snoop, put a piece of tape.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 10, 2017, 10:29:23 AM
Doesn't help to stop snooping.  Just means you'll know they did.  But if you just don't want them to snoop, put a piece of tape.
Tape is easily removable. You hear marbles falling all over the floor you will pay attention.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: mgarfin on August 23, 2017, 05:08:40 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/drug-rehab-center-jewish-addicts-opens-brooklyn-article-1.3433826
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on August 23, 2017, 05:21:05 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/drug-rehab-center-jewish-addicts-opens-brooklyn-article-1.3433826
At first I lost a heartbeat when I saw that this thread had a new post after being quiet for almost two weeks. This is the one thread that we all hope will die, rather than talk about deaths.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on August 23, 2017, 05:24:23 PM
At first I lost a heartbeat when I saw that this thread had a new post after being quiet for almost two weeks. This is the one thread that we all hope will die, rather than talk about deaths.
+1000000000
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 23, 2017, 06:58:50 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/drug-rehab-center-jewish-addicts-opens-brooklyn-article-1.3433826
Can we got one in Lakewood?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on August 23, 2017, 07:25:15 PM
Can we got one in Lakewood?

the successful long-term centers do better when they are out of town. More relaxed, less pressure, and fewer "reminders" of their past issues. (i.e. Malky did very well for 2 yrs in CA. After a few weeks in Monsey is when the relapses happened...)

However, YES -- local support centers and counseling are of extreme importance. Even better when publicly acknowledged without stigma. Repeated visits to get fixed -- almost/just like getting a cast in Urgent Care.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: A3 on September 27, 2017, 08:22:42 AM
http://rabbisblog.brsonline.org/jewish-community-drug-addiction-al-cheit-not-listening-not-learning-not-acting/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 08, 2017, 06:31:31 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/02/upshot/fentanyl-drug-overdose-deaths.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on October 24, 2017, 05:09:15 PM
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/30/faces-of-an-epidemic?mbid=social_twitter
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shwarmabob on October 30, 2017, 04:44:52 PM
Are we really telling people who are cooking and shooting heroin on Shabbos not to go into a church basement?
tshuva that allows entering a church under these circumstances (ask your LOR): תשובות והנהגות חלק ב סימן תי
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 08:05:10 PM
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2017/12/lakewood-et-al.html?m=1
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 15, 2018, 11:17:31 PM
Wonderful that this is all out in the open at TU. Better late than never, but there are still lives to save.

I couldn't agree more with every word.

https://youtu.be/9c--EcWA5hk
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: beeweegee on January 28, 2018, 10:29:12 PM
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sky121 on January 29, 2018, 05:28:52 PM
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-germany-vicodin.html?referer=https://t.co/ViOhtTr7OJ
Just an interesting article
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 07:35:01 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2018/01/piercing-the-darkness-of-substance-abuse-and-suicide-amudim-offers-ray-of-hope-with-describe-music-video-warning-age-restricted-video.html

See the comments. Basically decrying how "goyish" this whole thing is.

When will we wake us and understand how very Jewish this really is?

It's yeshivish, balabatish, heimish, chasidish, lubavitch, modern, satmar, etc.
Nothing "goyish" about any of it!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on January 30, 2018, 08:58:27 AM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2018/01/piercing-the-darkness-of-substance-abuse-and-suicide-amudim-offers-ray-of-hope-with-describe-music-video-warning-age-restricted-video.html

See the comments. Basically decrying how "goyish" this whole thing is.

When will we wake us and understand how very Jewish this really is?

It's yeshivish, balabatish, heimish, chasidish, lubavitch, modern, satmar, etc.
Nothing "goyish" about any of it!

The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish.  Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there.  But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish.  Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there.  But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.
I agree that the song style is goyish, but so are many other current songs. Noone would protest any other song of the same style...
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: skyguy918 on January 30, 2018, 11:54:10 AM
The music video and song where made to mimic currently popular style, which is decidedly unheimish.  Personally, I saw past that and appreciate the message Amudim is trying to get out there.  But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.
I think those people are alienated by the subject matter as well.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 11:56:02 AM
I think those people are alienated by the subject matter as well.
Primarily imho
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 12:05:54 PM
I think those people are alienated by the subject matter as well.
They're not alienated at all they're willfully blind. Keeping their head in the sand. How pathetic is it that people can be alienated by reality
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: skyguy918 on January 30, 2018, 12:13:18 PM
They're not alienated at all they're willfully blind. Keeping their head in the sand. How pathetic is it that people can be alienated by reality
It was playing off of his comment:
...But to think that the medium chosen wouldn't alienate some is naive.
Ie that the people saying why did they make a music video like that have more of an issue with the subject matter than the choice of music/video style.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Toasted on January 30, 2018, 12:57:24 PM
The guy is cracked. Who exactly will benefit from this video and what is the purpose of getting graphic? There's a very long road between the bottom of the rug  and this.

Please don't tell me there's a video coming on the other problem he's tackling.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 01:17:54 PM
The guy is cracked. Who exactly will benefit from this video and what is the purpose of getting graphic? There's a very long road between the bottom of the rug  and this.

Please don't tell me there's a video coming on the other problem he's tackling.
Im sure many sickos are waiting with baited breath.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 01:31:37 PM
The guy is cracked. Who exactly will benefit from this video and what is the purpose of getting graphic? There's a very long road between the bottom of the rug  and this.

Please don't tell me there's a video coming on the other problem he's tackling.
Desensitize the problem to the masses.

This is not something that only affects lowlives living in gettos.. or homeless.

There are basements in Ir hatorah vehachasidus full of broken bottles, vials of crack and used syringes.

Question is a) Are you aware of this? B) Is there a benefit of you being aware?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Talmid Muvhak on January 30, 2018, 01:53:53 PM
Desensitize the problem to the masses.

This is not something that only affects lowlives living in gettos.. or homeless.

There are basements in Ir hatorah vehachasidus full of broken bottles, vials of crack and used syringes.

Question is a) Are you aware of this? B) Is there a benefit of you being aware?
The benefits to ALL parents is to realize that it could happen to anyone, to be on guard, look for warning signs, and take necessary precautions/actions.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shmoe joe on January 30, 2018, 02:10:32 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2018/01/piercing-the-darkness-of-substance-abuse-and-suicide-amudim-offers-ray-of-hope-with-describe-music-video-warning-age-restricted-video.html

See the comments. Basically decrying how "goyish" this whole thing is.

When will we wake us and understand how very Jewish this really is?

It's yeshivish, balabatish, heimish, chasidish, lubavitch, modern, satmar, etc.
Nothing "goyish" about any of it!
i wish they never wake up. lucky are those people who think its just goish! no one should ever need to find out how close to home this is!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JoeyShmoe on January 30, 2018, 02:14:19 PM
i wish they never wake up. lucky are those people who think its just goish! no one should ever need to find out how close to home this is!
The best bet to ensure that it doesn't hit people close to home is if they wake up! If they're in denial of its existence, and don't know what to look out for, it'll eventually happen to them.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shmoe joe on January 30, 2018, 02:19:33 PM
The best bet to ensure that it doesn't hit people close to home is if they wake up! If they're in denial of its existence, and don't know what to look out for, it'll eventually happen to them.
i politely disagree, the best way is yo daven. no need to be aware of nothing.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 02:21:39 PM
i politely disagree, the best way is yo daven. no need to be aware of nothing.
+10000000
Also to stick your head in the nearest hole in the ground and to take a large puff of the exhaust pipe of the nearest running vehicle.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shmoe joe on January 30, 2018, 02:25:08 PM
The best bet to ensure that it doesn't hit people close to home is if they wake up! If they're in denial of its existence, and don't know what to look out for, it'll eventually happen to them.
and as if after this video you know what to look out for!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Toasted on January 30, 2018, 02:30:56 PM
Desensitize the problem to the masses.

This is not something that only affects lowlives living in gettos.. or homeless.

There are basements in Ir hatorah vehachasidus full of broken bottles, vials of crack and used syringes.

Question is a) Are you aware of this? B) Is there a benefit of you being aware?
Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we? 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 02:33:56 PM

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?
Ever seen MADD ads? Been to Fallsburg at the end of the summer where a mangled car from a fatal accident is on display on the high school lawn?

Of course shock is a good way to raise awareness.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CS1 on January 30, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

yes. They show results and professional videos of drunken driver head-on collisions during Drivers' Ed courses for teens. Very powerful and effective.

This video is of extreme importance. It is also good for parents of teens to see that anything can happen in a minute. Literally life or death. Unexpected. At any time.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 03:07:00 PM


Amudim deserves a lot of credit for raising awareness of the issue and offering assistance/guidance, but if his target audience is naive people, how does this video prove anything about basements in the ihr hatoireh?

My guess is that it's targeted to kids who are nebech affected and is trying to offer them hope. Strategy is to show to the masses and 'if it saves one kid it was all worth it'. I'm not in a position to disagree, but we don't show mangled corpses to encourage safer driving etc. Should we?

It is absolutely targeted to the masses of naive people like you, who think it's a goyisheh problem,and probably only affects "nebach kids".

It's unfortunately a global problem that affects much more than some kids.

Not sure I understand your aurgument that this video can't help educate the naive masses, that the scourge of addiction can and does affect almost anyone.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 03:08:16 PM
and as if after this video you know what to look out for!
Maybe just a tiny bit.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on January 30, 2018, 03:14:16 PM
i wish they never wake up. lucky are those people who think its just goish! no one should ever need to find out how close to home this is!
It's to late for that, I see it on a daily basis yes even in the frum communities (the amount of narcan used in a single day is staggering).
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 30, 2018, 03:14:35 PM
i politely disagree, the best way is yo daven. no need to be aware of nothing.
Are you serious? But what happens if your tefilos were not miskabel?
What if your son or daughter is cv not perfect, and for some reason gets bullied/thrown out of school? What will help you or them be aware of the dangers of drugs?

What if your job/marriage is stressful, CV you break a leg and get hooked on narcotics?

What if you're choshuver bochur drinks at every sholom zocur, bris, Kiddush, fabregen, late night Seder, week end, beIN hazmanim, chasuna, vort, etc. And you only find out there is a problem when his new kallah can't handle it?

How will you be aware?

Either way, your tefilos are definitely needed and appreciated!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Definitions on January 30, 2018, 03:25:25 PM
It's to late for that, I see it on a daily basis yes even in the frum communities (the amount of narcan used in a single day is staggering).
If you don't mind my asking and if you're allowed to say. (In the Jewish community) What type of people and how old are they, get narcan? Which age group and type of people are the most common?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on January 30, 2018, 03:40:27 PM
If you don't mind my asking and if you're allowed to say. (In the Jewish community) What type of people and how old are they, get narcan? Which age group and type of people are the most common?
Narcan is a medication that reverses the effect of opiates/opioids for a short time.
I've seen all ages and back rounds from young teens to older adults overdose whether it was by mistake or not it is a real issue
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Definitions on January 30, 2018, 04:02:24 PM
Narcan is a medication that reverses the effect of opiates/opioids for a short time.
I've seen all ages and back rounds from young teens to older adults overdose whether it was by mistake or not it is a real issue
In your experience. Would you say that cases of frum yeshivish people are roughly the same amount as other Jewish people?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 04:02:44 PM
it is a real issue
(http://i.imgur.com/7k1ZlRv.jpg)8
[/quote]
 ::) ::) ;D :-X
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JoeyShmoe on January 30, 2018, 04:33:57 PM
and as if after this video you know what to look out for!
How can you know what to look out for if there's nothing to look out for?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on January 30, 2018, 05:39:33 PM
so shmoe joe is arguing with Joe Shmoe.....
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on January 30, 2018, 05:41:24 PM
In your experience. Would you say that cases of frum yeshivish people are roughly the same amount as other Jewish people?
I don't understand your question
And if I'm understanding correctly does it make a difference? A life is a life
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on January 30, 2018, 06:42:55 PM
I don't understand your question
And if I'm understanding correctly does it make a difference? A life is a life
My guess is he was trying to figure out if the issue is as prevalent amongst yeshivish jews as it is amongst non yeshivish jews.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yochiek93 on January 30, 2018, 07:01:15 PM
My guess is he was trying to figure out if the issue is as prevalent amongst yeshivish jews as it is amongst non yeshivish jews.
Yes
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on January 30, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
My guess is he was trying to figure out if the issue is as prevalent amongst yeshivish jews as it is amongst non yeshivish jews.
That's a great metric to figure out if we have a problem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Sport on January 30, 2018, 07:12:30 PM
That's a great metric to figure out if we have a problem.
Just saying what I think he was getting at with his question. I agree its irrelevant.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: JoeyShmoe on January 31, 2018, 11:25:58 AM
so shmoe joe is arguing with Joe Shmoe.....
That's the only reason I responded :), otherwise I try to stay out of touchy subjects
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: shmoe joe on January 31, 2018, 07:10:00 PM
How can you know what to look out for if there's nothing to look out for?
i never said there’s nothing to look out all I said that I wish those people who think that there’s nothing it’s Goiyish and there’s nothing to look out, should always stay thinking like this and not have to experience first hand!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on April 01, 2018, 10:03:39 PM
These guys may get away without jail for procedural reasons, but they need to be ostracized if they were trying to distribute drugs.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nj-supreme-court/1892835.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20FindLawNJSup%20(FindLaw%20Case%20Law%20Updates%20-%20NJ%20Supreme%20Court)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on April 01, 2018, 10:07:42 PM
These guys may get away without jail for procedural reasons, but they need to be ostracized if they were trying to distribute drugs.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nj-supreme-court/1892835.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20FindLawNJSup%20(FindLaw%20Case%20Law%20Updates%20-%20NJ%20Supreme%20Court)
But but but weed is harmless.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on April 01, 2018, 10:08:32 PM
But but but weed is harmless.
It was also cocaine
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Definitions on April 02, 2018, 01:30:33 AM
These guys may get away without jail for procedural reasons, but they need to be ostracized if they were trying to distribute drugs.

If there's no central authority I find it hard to believe that it would make that much of a difference. But I guess every little bit would help. Were there similar cases where it did help?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on May 23, 2018, 10:33:10 PM
http://crownheights.info/crime/614817/5-year-old-lured-in-crown-heights-suspect-arrested/

This individual is alive, but his life seems wasted.

I recall quite a few years ago I was asked to help an organization that was dealing with at risk teenagers. I was given the opportunity to learn with this bochur along with one or two others. He struck me as a very bright and intelligent boy, significantly more capable than the other(s) in the group. One of the other ones just roams the streets of Crown Heights nowadays, seems like his brain is totally wasted. While this one can still strike an intelligent conversation, but unfortunately seems like his life is in ruins.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on May 23, 2018, 10:52:17 PM
http://crownheights.info/crime/614817/5-year-old-lured-in-crown-heights-suspect-arrested/

This individual is alive, but his life seems wasted.

I recall quite a few years ago I was asked to help an organization that was dealing with at risk teenagers. I was given the opportunity to learn with this bochur along with one or two others. He struck me as a very bright and intelligent boy, significantly more capable than the other(s) in the group. One of the other ones just roams the streets of Crown Heights nowadays, seems like his brain is totally wasted. While this one can still strike an intelligent conversation, but unfortunately seems like his life is in ruins.
He's mentally ill. On heavy meds...or, more likely, off them. Sad
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on May 23, 2018, 11:13:59 PM
He's mentally ill. On heavy meds...or, more likely, off them. Sad
Very sad! You know the medical issues for a fact? I thought it was just a case of drug abuse. He's been caught burglarizing quite a few times recently.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on May 23, 2018, 11:15:06 PM
Very sad! You know the medical issues for a fact? I thought it was just a case of drug abuse. He's been caught burglarizing quite a few times recently.
Fact, probably off meds. That, I cant say for sure.

And it sort of runs in the family too.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on May 25, 2018, 12:33:16 AM
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=50609&hl=Event

Fascinating video.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2018, 09:06:02 AM
http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/18/06/21/interactive-map-where-opioids-are-exacting-the-highest-death-toll-in-new-jersey/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on October 10, 2018, 06:23:38 PM
Saw a tweet by Bloomberg (TicToc) and was debating where to post. I figured this would be an appropriate board for the topic.

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on May 16, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-16/insurance-covers-mental-health-but-good-luck-using-it

So true and so sad. The bottom line is that in many cases that I am aware of, there's nothing to even try with insurance. The good doctors and/or programs are out-of-network and/or out-of-state and cost tens of thousands to save lives!
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on May 16, 2019, 11:37:23 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-16/insurance-covers-mental-health-but-good-luck-using-it

So true and so sad. The bottom line is that in many cases that I am aware of, there's nothing to even try with insurance. The good doctors and/or programs are out-of-network and/or out-of-state and cost tens of thousands to save lives!
Most good therapists cant be bothered with insurance.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 08, 2019, 09:00:06 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1754104/roaring-drug-epidemic-in-our-community-3-weeks-32-overdoses-and-endless-tears.html
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 08, 2019, 09:00:46 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1754104/roaring-drug-epidemic-in-our-community-3-weeks-32-overdoses-and-endless-tears.html

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ROARING DRUG EPIDEMIC IN OUR COMMUNITY: 3 Weeks, 32 Overdoses And Endless Tears

July 8, 2019 6:30 pm

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(By: Zvi Gluck)
Let me be the first to admit that I am not a math person, yet, unfortunately, it seems that right now my life has been all about numbers.

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For those of you who have been spared the pain that has devastated klal yisroel since mid-June, let me fill you in on what has been taking place in Jewish communities all over the United States. Over a three week period, drug overdoses killed nine of our own, with six more remaining in comas as I write these words. Another 17 overdoses had more positive outcomes, baruch Hashem, with Narcan successfully reviving those victims, but without proper treatment I can’t honestly tell you that any of those individuals are really out of the woods.
Without fail, every time I share statistics like this, I get flak from people who suggest that I am making a chilul Hashem by publicly acknowledging that there is a severe drug problem in the frum community. It should come as no surprise that those claims come from people who know little about the realities of abuse and addiction. I can tell you one thing – they definitely don’t come from the friends or loved ones of those whose lives were cut tragically short, who know all too well just how horrific and far reaching this plague really is.
Allow me to set the record straight for those who believe that discussing these deaths embarrasses the Jewish community. A June 2019 National Safety Council report estimated that at least 100 people die every day from drug overdoses, with other reports putting that number at 300. While the death rate in the Jewish community is significantly lower than national averages, we can’t exactly pat ourselves on the back and pretend we are doing okay while people continue to die and families are crying endless tears. The Torah mandate of lo saamod al dam reyecha makes it crystal clear that even one death is one too many and each and every one of us is halachically obligated to take action when Jewish lives are being lost.
There is no doubt that as a community we are true gomlei chesed. From Hatzolah to Bikur Cholim to Tomchei Shabbos and more, we have proven time and time again that we stand united and are there for those who need help. Millions of dollars in resources have been poured into these incredible organizations, as well as into our schools, shuls and other vital institutions and yet in certain areas we are still falling short. I cannot understand why we have embraced those who struggle with cancer while so many still turn a blind eye to those who struggle with mental illness, drug addiction, sexual abuse and suicidality. Are those people less a part of our community? Have we written them off completely because these problems make us feel uncomfortable? It pains me to no end to know that we have had to waitlist people who have reached out to us for help because without sufficient communal support we simply don’t have the resources to provide for them.
I’m willing to bet that you’d be surprised if you knew who the people who came to us were. For the most part, people assume that those who are struggling with drug addictions are the kind of individuals that make you want to cross the street when you see them coming down the block, or angry teenagers with chips on their shoulders, but that is far from true. I can’t even begin to count how many clients have come to us, hooked on painkillers that were legally prescribed to them after a medical procedure, or students who abused their prescription ADHD meds to get through a grueling finals schedule. Others are individuals who experienced some kind of trauma who are just looking to numb the pain so that they can get through life; I promise you the list goes on and on.
The fact remains that addiction is a disease, one that doesn’t discriminate between men and women, kids or grown ups, marrieds or singles and the nine people we just lost ranged in age from 16 to 64 – they were mothers and fathers, singles brimming with potential and yes, even grandparents. We need to face the reality that drug addiction is a far reaching plague and that tremendous resources and manpower are needed to get this deadly epidemic under control. It is ironic that people feel very free to tell me what I am doing wrong, yet those same individuals have no interest in stepping up to the plate and becoming part of the solution. And lest you think this is exclusively an Amudim problem, I have heard from all of my colleagues in the field that they too have gotten apathetic responses from the vast majority of the community when it comes to becoming involved. Critics? There are plenty of those out there. People who are interested in actually rolling up their sleeves and getting involved? Sadly, those are few and far between.
Over the past five years, Amudim has helped nearly 6,000 families, a number that represents just a small fraction of those who are trapped in never ending nightmares. Between our United States and Israel offices, we field 200 calls a day and have 30 to 40 new cases coming in under our comprehensive case management every week. With each weekly story that we send out, every PSA video that we release and every awareness event that we produce, we see with our own eyes that the naysayers are wrong because our lines keep ringing off the hook as people who have been suffering in silence realize that help is just a phone call away.
In addition to raising awareness, we have also been working hard on proactive solutions. We have done training sessions with schoolchildren so that they are better informed and can avoid potential pitfalls which could lead to trouble. We have done seminars with semicha students, rabbonim and rebbetzins so that they can be on the lookout for problems and catch them before they spiral out of control.
But no matter how far we have come and how many people we have helped, it isn’t enough as long as we continue to bury overdose victims. We saw 32 potentially fatal overdoses in just three weeks, and with nine people lost there are far too many milestones that will never be marked and simchos that will forever be marred by the gaping holes created by these deaths. It is incredibly painful to see so many lives forever changed and it is clear that we need to do more on a personal and a community level.
There is so much good going on at Amudim, but we cannot do it alone. My door, and Amudim’s doors, are always open for feedback, new ideas and to welcome new members and volunteers to our team. There are various roles that contribute to the Amudim team and each one is meaningful and valuable to the total picture. I welcome your emails at zgluck@amudim.org and while it may take me some time to respond, rest assured I will get back to you. There is always so much that needs to be done, whether it is helping clients who are having trouble paying for their care, helping Amudim financially so we can continue doing what we do, bringing awareness to our communities or even something as simple as sharing our resources on social media.
Let’s work together to save lives and build futures.
Zvi Gluck is the director of Amudim, an organization dedicated to helping abuse victims and those suffering with addiction within the Jewish community and has been heavily involved in crisis intervention and management for the past 19 years. For more information go to www.amudim.org.
(YWN World Headquarters – NYC)

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3 COMMENTS

yehuda26July 8, 2019 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm

I understand from the article that Amudim helps (b’kitzur) 2 types of addicts: those who become hooked on prescription drugs without intending to, when they were trying to deal with a hopefully short-term issue; and those who intentionally use drugs to deal with deep-seated emotional issues without making any attempt to resolve the issues themselves. Obviously this is an over-simplification but it does have some truth to it.
As regards the first group of people: Without an effective campaign to open people’s eyes to the very real dangers posed by the drugs their doctors prescribe them, there will be such limited success in dealing with the results of psychiatry that funds channeled through Amudim to deal with the victims are effectively wasted. And trying to get any MSM outlet to publicize the dangers of using tranquillizers, anti-depressants, sleeping pills, and all the rest, is going to prove almost if not entirely impossible. Consider the sheer numbers of people on mind-altering prescription drugs – some estimates run to 50% of the adult population. How many people know that coming off benzos cold-turkey can be fatal? Your GP won’t tell you that. But why should private funding be necessary to deal with problems caused by psychiatrists/GPs who did not tell the whole story to the people they got addicted? Do they tell young women how hard it is to get off benzos, and that they will not be able to have children until they get off the drugs? How many people even know what tapering is?
As regards the second group of people: It’s not that we’re apathetic to their suffering and the need to help them. But, the frum world is absolutely overflowing with people who are suffering in one way or another, most of them through no fault of their own, and many of them could really, really do with financial help. So expect to find very little sympathy for channeling much-in-demand funding towards people who are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as having caused their own suffering.
Also, I think it is disingenious of you to provide “shock” statistics derived from the second group and then try to gain support by telling us that you help people from the first group. The people in the first group by and large aren’t the ones featured in the headlines.
When it comes to suffering, would you really claim that those addicted to drugs are a) more numerous or b) more deserving than any other segment of klal Yisrael? What about those who have heart attacks from financial stress? I think most of us know of at least a few people who were niftar before the age of 60 where lack of money for essentials played a huge part in their passing. One could even argue that supporting parents financially will have a drip-down effect on their teenage children, those most vulnerable to intentional drug addiction, and make them more sensitive to and give them more time for their children.
In short, dealing with the consequences of various situations and failings in society seems like a waste of funds when the core issues should instead be addressed. Please don’t try to make people feel guilty for not wanting to donate to Amudim when as a community we give so generously to many worthy causes, and possibly quite accurately perceive the problems of drug addiction as less significant than many of the other problems we deal with.

ANON21July 8, 2019 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm

Well since you’re wondering why cancer gets more attention I’ll explain it to you in just a few words. Cancer is not self inflicted. And while apparently you do deal with addiction cases that are also not self inflicted the majority of them is self inflicted. Therefore the sympathy level just isn’t there

swhphJuly 8, 2019 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm

thank you for the article, its about time we realize.

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Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Boruch999 on July 16, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
Another one. BDE Hashem Yerachem.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 16, 2019, 07:35:03 AM
This thread has become morose. Instead of all the hand wringing what action(s) can we take to stop this?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 18, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
This thread has become morose. Instead of all the hand wringing what action(s) can we take to stop this?
Narcan
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2019, 07:11:48 PM
Narcan
I think we should buy a bigger rug to sweep things under.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 18, 2019, 07:14:53 PM
I think we should buy a bigger rug to sweep things under.
I thought that was what all the hats were for.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: ExGingi on July 18, 2019, 07:32:49 PM
I think we should buy a bigger rug to sweep things under.
They don't make one big enough any more.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2019, 07:33:54 PM
I thought that was what all the hats were for.
Thats to hide the horns silly.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: grodnoking on July 18, 2019, 07:53:51 PM
I think we should buy a bigger rug to sweep things under.
I have not been to one of these seminars, but I thought they talk about the issue there.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Definitions on July 18, 2019, 09:09:50 PM
There is nothing to do. All options have been thought of. It's just a matter of more awareness for prevention.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2019, 10:22:18 PM
There is nothing to do. All options have been thought of. It's just a matter of more awareness for prevention.
Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: Definitions on July 18, 2019, 10:24:22 PM
Ha
Why? what ideas do you have in mind?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 18, 2019, 10:25:48 PM
Ha
maybe he is saying "just say no".  ;)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2019, 10:26:51 PM
maybe he is saying "just say no".  ;)
That old gag...and we know your position on the edited post...so  :-X
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: cmey on July 18, 2019, 11:36:55 PM
Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.

What’s the issue with rehabs?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 18, 2019, 11:41:26 PM
What’s the issue with rehabs?
Useless waste of money. They dont work. As soon as theyre done there is no follow up. Read the article. Its a good jumpstart if there is a plan for continuous recovery. But just rehab and then winging it, like most are doing, is a colossal waste of time, money and hope. If there is no accountability by the addict after rehab and no awareness of what to look for in behaviors of the addict by the families its a waste.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 19, 2019, 05:00:24 AM
Useless waste of money. They dont work. As soon as theyre done there is no follow up. Read the article. Its a good jumpstart if there is a plan for continuous recovery. But just rehab and then winging it, like most are doing, is a colossal waste of time, money and hope. If there is no accountability by the addict after rehab and no awareness of what to look for in behaviors of the addict by the families its a waste.
There are frum meetings in Lakewood at least once a week.
Kids and adults are still od'ing every couple of days. Thanks to narcan most are not dying
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 19, 2019, 03:44:03 PM
This thread has become morose. Instead of all the hand wringing what action(s) can we take to stop this?

Great question, perhaps someone has some ideas?

Ha. There is plenty more to do. I will pound the table over and over until someone is ready to listen...12 step programs...for the addict, for the family of the addict...therapists that are CASAC trained. No more rehabs. Open meetings in frum places. Do not allow any non-CASAC trained therapists to work in our community mental health organizations.

It sounds like we have a passionate and knowledgable expert that already knows what to do.
However, this expert still hasn't taken action, and believes

we should buy a bigger rug to sweep things under.

Are you in the rug business by any chance?

Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
None.
No action necessary...open-mindedness necessary.
How ever did you guess? Can i interest you in a Persian rug.

Sad that all we can get is snark.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 19, 2019, 04:06:32 PM
None.
No action necessary...open-mindedness necessary.
How ever did you guess? Can i interest you in a Persian rug.

Sad that all we can get is snark.

My point is simple - if the people most passionate and knowledgable aren't going to take action on this issue, then don't expect anything more than the status quo. If awareness is the big thing, run around and do whatever it takes to make people aware instead of complaining about it in a forum. IMHO being knowledgable and not taking action is sweeping it under the rug.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 19, 2019, 04:13:33 PM
My point is simple - if the people most passionate and knowledgable aren't going to take action on this issue, then don't expect anything more than the status quo. If awareness is the big thing, run around and do whatever it takes to make people aware instead of complaining about it in a forum. IMHO being knowledgable and not taking action is sweeping it under the rug.
Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: yuneeq on July 19, 2019, 05:42:08 PM
Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.

I didn't know that you are involved as your post seems to show otherwise. But thanks for taking action.
Maybe it should be advertised what you and others do, and with awareness others will get involved?

I think that both awareness without action or action without awareness will not solve the issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: grodnoking on July 19, 2019, 07:58:08 PM
Are you questioning the action I take? Do you know me? Do you know what I do or have done? I dont advertise what I do. Neither does anyone else who does. I have never advocated just awareness. I complain from a place of action, not inaction.
I'm ready to help. Tell me what to do. I have no friends or family with such issues thank god.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 23, 2019, 04:35:24 PM
https://anash.org/expert-talks-with-bochurim-about-substance-abuse/
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 04:43:15 PM
https://anash.org/expert-talks-with-bochurim-about-substance-abuse/
I sure hope he addressed real drugs and not pot.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 23, 2019, 04:44:35 PM
I sure hope he addressed real drugs and not pot.
Right because its not a gateway drug. Shhhh I'll stop you now...in OUR circles it is.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 23, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
I'm ready to help. Tell me what to do. I have no friends or family with such issues thank god.

Odds are good you do, but you don't know it. If not drugs, some other addiction.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 04:49:17 PM
Right because its not a gateway drug. Shhhh I'll stop you now...in OUR circles it is.
Where is your circle? Ripley believe it or not?
Are you trying to say the majority of marijuana users go on to harder drugs?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 23, 2019, 04:54:34 PM
Where is your circle? Ripley believe it or not?
Are you trying to say the majority of marijuana users go on to harder drugs?
Im not trying to say anything you would comprehend. You are free to comment on things you know. This is something you know nothing about...i.e. drug use in the religious Jewish community.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 04:58:10 PM
Im not trying to say anything you would comprehend. You are free to comment on things you know. This is something you know nothing about...i.e. drug use in the religious Jewish community.
The community has nothing to do if a drug is a gateway drug or not. If kids are going from pot to heroin in the Jewish community the problem is not pot. Spend your time and resources address the root of the problem not chasing a rabbit down a hole.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 23, 2019, 04:59:43 PM
The community has nothing to do if a drug is a gateway drug or not. If kids are going from pot to heroin in the Jewish community the problem is not pot. Spend your time and resources address the root of the problem not chasing a rabbit down a hole.
👇
This is something you know nothing about...i.e. drug use in the religious Jewish community.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 05:06:57 PM
👇
Waste more time trying to scare kids about pot and the only thing will change in a year from now is that more kids will have tragically die.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 23, 2019, 05:33:36 PM
The point is not to scare kids with incorrect facts about pot (I hope)...but the fact remains that in orthodox communities, kids that are using pot are very often already moving in the direction of harder drugs, simply because it's not just recreational use, it's part of a larger pattern of pain or rebellion.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 06:19:46 PM
The point is not to scare kids with incorrect facts about pot (I hope)...but the fact remains that in orthodox communities, kids that are using pot are very often already moving in the direction of harder drugs, simply because it's not just recreational use, it's part of a larger pattern of pain or rebellion.
Ok then you have to address the pain and rebellion. If didn't use pot they will just go to the harder drugs directly if the pain and rebellion is not addressed. Take using pot as a siren going off.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: sguitarist18 on July 23, 2019, 06:34:41 PM
Sort of true. Not always accurate that they'd jump directly to harder drugs, but definitely true that addressing the pain and rebellion is important.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 23, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
Ok then you have to address the pain and rebellion. If didn't use pot they will just go to the harder drugs directly if the pain and rebellion is not addressed. Take using pot as a siren going off.
Genius. Cant believe we havent thought of that already.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 06:45:38 PM
Genius. Cant believe we havent thought of that already.
My original point was pot is not the issue before you went off on "I know everything" tangent. Now we got pot out of the way you can continue.  :P
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 23, 2019, 06:46:53 PM
My original point was pot is not the issue before you went off on "I know everything" tangent. Now we got pot out of the way you can continue.  :P
Recreational pot is A VERY BIG issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 23, 2019, 06:49:06 PM
Recreational pot is A VERY BIG issue.
Stick to the Jewish community which you claim to know about.  :)
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: zh cohen on July 24, 2019, 12:23:10 AM
Are you trying to say the majority of marijuana users go on to harder drugs?

Are you trying to say that the majority of hard drug users didn't start with marijuana?
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 24, 2019, 12:30:37 AM
Are you trying to say that the majority of hard drug users didn't start with marijuana?
Where did you get that from?
Just so there is no confusion most marijuana users DO NOT go on to harder drugs. 
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 24, 2019, 12:37:41 AM
Where did you get that from?
Just so there is no confusion most marijuana users DO NOT go on to harder drugs.
Stick to the non-Jewish community which you claim to know about.  :)
FTF all of us
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 24, 2019, 12:52:26 AM
FTF all of us
If you can't bring any facts to the discussion just post in the political thread.  :P
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: gingyguy on July 24, 2019, 08:00:29 AM
Where did you get that from?
Just so there is no confusion most marijuana users DO NOT go on to harder drugs.
that is entirely not the question . the question is how many hard drug users started out on marijuana
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 24, 2019, 08:08:47 AM
that is entirely not the question . the question is how many hard drug users started out on marijuana
How many hard drug users started out on breast milk? The questions are meaningless.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: gingyguy on July 24, 2019, 08:15:37 AM
How many hard drug users started out on breast milk? The questions are meaningless.
wow are you a hard person to have a honest conversation with .
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 24, 2019, 08:21:59 AM
wow are you a hard person to have a honest conversation with .
If you want to have an honest discussion then address the point I made. Don't try and confuse the issue.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 24, 2019, 08:26:37 AM
How many hard drug users started out on breast milk? The questions are meaningless.
There are many things which are not prohibited, yet we set boundaries and make guidelines to protect against abuses and excess. The behaviors that an addict exhibits usually comes from ignoring the boundaries and indulging in the excesses.

Pot use is on the rise because 1. It is more readily available due to decriminalization on the state and local levels; and 2. Because it is an easy tool escape reality.

When someone is an addict and the prohibited or formerly prohibited vice is now more readily available. Or, if the social stigma of the vice has been diminished or removed entirely. What do you think will happen? Of course they will indulge in the excess.

Therefore, the solution has always been, in our community, to set boundaries, even for permitted things. So speaking about Pot is absolutely crucial and relevant.

A community without boundaries such as the secular world at large will not understand this.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: CountValentine on July 24, 2019, 08:36:50 AM
There are many things which are not prohibited, yet we set boundaries and make guidelines to protect against abuses and excess. The behaviors that an addict exhibits usually comes from ignoring the boundaries and indulging in the excesses.

Pot use is on the rise because 1. It is more readily available due to decriminalization on the state and local levels; and 2. Because it is an easy tool escape reality.

When someone is an addict and the prohibited or formerly prohibited vice is now more readily available. Or, if the social stigma of the vice has been diminished or removed entirely. What do you think will happen? Of course they will indulge in the excess.

Therefore, the solution has always been, in our community, to set boundaries, even for permitted things. So speaking about Pot is absolutely crucial and relevant.

A community without boundaries such as the secular world at large will not understand this.
If you are coming from a place where you think (community) you are special we will never agree on anything.

It seems you are talking about the dangers of addicts using pots. That is totally different point/discussion.

My point is smoking pot does not lead to becoming a drug addict.
Title: Re: Silent Killer
Post by: hvaces42 on July 24, 2019, 08:42:55 AM
If you are coming from a place where you think (community) you are special we will never agree on anything.

It seems you are talking about the dangers of addicts using pots. That is totally different point/discussion.

My point is smoking pot does not lead to becoming a drug addict.

And you are coming from a place where you have no clue about our special community. So as previously stated...