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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: rileywiles23 on August 28, 2016, 05:00:35 PM

Title: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: rileywiles23 on August 28, 2016, 05:00:35 PM
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/08/28/angry-49ers-fans-burn-their-colin-kaepernick-jerseys-viral-videos-show
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 05:22:25 PM
Dumb thing to do because will hate him for it but I have no problem with him sitting.
Patriotism is the only religion that if anyone dares question their loyalty they are burnt at the stake.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 07:08:44 PM
Patriotism is the only religion that if anyone dares question their loyalty they are burnt at the stake.
A guess it depends what the flag means to you.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 28, 2016, 07:16:58 PM
(http://truthfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/colin-meme.png)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on August 28, 2016, 07:19:23 PM
Dumb thing to do because will hate him for it but I have no problem with him sitting.
Patriotism is the only religion that if anyone dares question their loyalty they are burnt at the stake.

This is literally what almost all religions have done through the ages.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
This is literally what almost all religions have done through the ages.

Agreed.
But it's not like that anymore besides for Islam.
The flag has the craziest followers.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 07:45:49 PM
A guess it depends what the flag means to you.

The flag stands for everything this country represents both for good and for bad.
And some of the bad just ain't pretty.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 07:47:05 PM
The flag has the craziest followers.
Coming from someone that follows Judaism please give your definition of "craziest".
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 07:50:26 PM
Coming from someone that follows Judaism please give your definition of "craziest".

Crazy meaning you got the extreme left the extreme right and everyone in between as subscribers.
Whenever a whole nation follows the same religion it becomes a breeding ground for the crazies among them.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 07:52:37 PM
Crazy meaning you got the extreme left the extreme right and everyone in between as subscribers.
Whenever a whole nation follows the same religion it becomes a breeding ground for the crazies among them.
I don't agree but why would you call it a religion?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 28, 2016, 08:08:30 PM
The flag stands for everything this country represents both for good and for bad.
And some of the bad just ain't pretty.
And that is exactly what bother people he has no problem taking advantage of the good so show some gratitude
And The bad aint any worse than anywhere else in the world. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:20:55 PM
I don't agree but why would you call it a religion?

Because it looks like a religion and quacks like a religion.
Substitute cross for flag.

At all sports games everyone rises in honor of the US cross which represents the parcel of land they were born on. They then recite their pledge of allegiance to the cross. Those who don't believe in the US cross are still pressured to pledge allegiance to the cross or they live in fear of ostricization.

Interestingly, this practice is common on basically every inhabited parcel of land in the world, where the occupants are loyal to their local cross, because each one believes their cross is the greatest cross.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 28, 2016, 08:25:59 PM
Because it looks like a religion and quacks like a religion.
Substitute cross for flag.

At all sports games everyone rises in honor of the US cross which represents the parcel of land they were born on. They then recite their pledge of allegiance to the cross. Those who don't believe in the US cross are still pressured to pledge allegiance to the cross or they live in fear of ostricization.

Interestingly, this practice is common on basically every inhabited parcel of land in the world, where the occupants are loyal to their local cross, because each one believes their cross is the greatest cross.
your use of the word "believe" here is taking some major liberties.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:28:22 PM
And that is exactly what bother people he has no problem taking advantage of the good so show some gratitude
And The bad aint any worse than anywhere else in the world.

Forced gratitude is a thing?
And yes the bad is worse than other countries in certain cases.
For example, police brutality is a bigger issue in the US than in many other civilized countries.

If I had to name this religion I would call it this. (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism")
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:30:41 PM
your use of the word "believe" here is taking some major liberties.

Maybe they don't believe in the flag, but they are loyal to it. So loyal is the correct word.
But otherwise, as a general rule everyones believes their flag is the greatest flag.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: @Yehuda on August 28, 2016, 08:32:08 PM
Forced gratitude is a thing?
And yes the bad is worse than other countries in certain cases.
For example, police brutality is a bigger issue in the US than in many other civilized countries.

If I had to name this religion I would call it this. (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism")
Systemic police brutality against blacks is made up. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7347/7-statistics-show-systemic-racism-doesnt-exist-aaron-bandler
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 28, 2016, 08:36:38 PM
Forced gratitude is a thing?
And yes the bad is worse than other countries in certain cases.
For example, police brutality is a bigger issue in the US than in many other civilized countries.

If I had to name this religion I would call it this. (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism")
No ones forcing him to show gratitude, but they have the right to be disgusted by an ingrate.
I can't compare to other countries, I can't even get clear facts on police brutality in America. I'm sure it exists and is an issue that may even  warrant him getting involved in. But it's disgraceful to act as if America as a whole is a dispicable country.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Moshe123 on August 28, 2016, 08:36:45 PM
If white people weren't interested in stupid sports, they'd be washing toilets.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:38:07 PM
Systemic police brutality against blacks is made up. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7347/7-statistics-show-systemic-racism-doesnt-exist-aaron-bandler

I know Kaepernick situation is about blacks but my point wasn't.
I was talking about police brutality in general.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:42:45 PM
No ones forcing him to show gratitude, but they have the right to be disgusted by an ingrate.

This guy says it best

Everyone has the right to get disgusted or offended. But why should I care? The only thing that matters to me is that people are so goddamned judgmental.

Quote
I can't compare to other countries, I can't even get clear facts on police brutality in America. I'm sure it exists and is an issue that may even  warrant him getting involved in. But it's disgraceful to act as if America as a whole is a dispicable country.

Well then you might want to educate yourself and return when you have the cold hard facts.
Now who said America is despicable?
If I don't like a sports team I don't watch them.
If I'm not a fan of the flag I don't need to stand up for it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 28, 2016, 08:46:00 PM
This guy says it best

Everyone has the right to get disgusted or offended. But why should I care? The only thing that matters to me is that people are so goddamned judgmental.

Well then you might want to educate yourself and return when you have the cold hard facts.
Now who said America is despicable?
If I don't like a sports team I don't watch them.
If I'm not a fan of the flag I don't need to stand up for it.
I didn't make any concrete statements, you did. I'm humble enough to realize that my source of facts are from a media that always has an agenda one way or another.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:46:28 PM
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/6/8/1433800472888/5d548db2-75d0-40bb-b6dd-171dce9ba52b-620x500.jpeg?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=68cce8f55afc1f78679bacae53ff0ccf)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: @Yehuda on August 28, 2016, 08:48:28 PM
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/6/8/1433800472888/5d548db2-75d0-40bb-b6dd-171dce9ba52b-620x500.jpeg?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=68cce8f55afc1f78679bacae53ff0ccf)
Show me a comparison of how many criminals there are in those 2 countries.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 08:57:35 PM
Show me a comparison of how many criminals there are in those 2 countries.

This debate would turn out to be a never ending goose chase. Despite that, the homicide rate is 5x higher in the US, but the police shooting rate is roughly 65x higher in the US.
So let's concede to my first point that America isn't so great in every aspect.
We have bad criminals and brutal cops compared to others.

Some more facts/stats that may interest you:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 09:11:00 PM
At all sports games everyone rises in honor of the US cross which represents the parcel of land they were born on. They then recite their pledge of allegiance to the cross. Those who don't believe in the US cross are still pressured to pledge allegiance to the cross or they live in fear of ostricization.
What if they rise out of respect for those that gave their lives to defend the freedom the flag represents to them?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 09:12:31 PM
If white people weren't interested in stupid sports, they'd be washing toilets.
Who is they?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 09:17:02 PM
What if they rise out of respect for those that gave their lives to defend the freedom the flag represents to them?

There's nothing wrong with standing up for the flag just as there's nothing wrong in sitting down.
If they find meaning in standing up for a flag, that's nice. That doesn't mean everyone feels the same way.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 09:18:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with standing up for the flag just as there's nothing wrong in sitting down.
If they find meaning in standing up for a flag, that's nice. That doesn't mean everyone feels the same way.
My point is it has nothing in common with religion.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 09:23:07 PM
My point is it has nothing in common with religion.

That's how you feel, I feel otherwise.
Why is the flag the only way to respect the dead?

IMHO a flag means much more than "respecting soldiers that die for the country".
And for arguments sake, it's difficult to say that the soldiers in Iraq/Vietnam/other pointless wars died defending the country.
But the flag is a reminder for them too?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 28, 2016, 09:30:00 PM
Why is the flag the only way to respect the dead?

And for arguments sake, it's difficult to say that the soldiers in Iraq/Vietnam/other pointless wars died defending the country.
But the flag is a reminder for them too?
1- I never said it was the only way
2 - Now you are getting into politics but yes the flag represents their sacrifice.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 10:01:06 PM
1- I never said it was the only way
2 - Now you are getting into politics but yes the flag represents their sacrifice.

1. So those that sit aren't necessarily disrespecting the dead, correct? I can assume that they respect them in other ways. 
2. I don't see how the wars have anything to do with politics. Thousands of veterans died because of the mistakes of their government, I don't see that as a right/left issue. It's very nice to call them heroes but is it blasphemy to believe that they died in vain?

At the very least you can see now that there's another side to things let's not make a big deal over sitting down during an anthem.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 28, 2016, 10:02:32 PM


That's how you feel, I feel otherwise.
Why is the flag the only way to respect the dead?

IMHO a flag means much more than "respecting soldiers that die for the country".

Once something has become an accepted way to respect their sacrifice to use it as a statement is offensive. That is exactly what he is intending it to be. If he would say that he feels that sitting is a better way to show respect people wouldn't care and would dismiss him as a kook.

Let us say that he has a good point about police brutality. It is still not something which the country stands for. If it exists as they claim it would be an issue which everyone would agree needs to be fixed. The symbolism of the flag is what is allowing him to be earning millions a year instead of working on a tobacco field. With his actions he is turning his back on all this country gave him.

Any reasonable person will realize that bigotry exists. Many of us have experienced it. But if a Jew would disrespect the country which has given more freedom than any other in thousands of years due to some bias against him he should be condemned.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 28, 2016, 10:03:58 PM


1. So those that sit aren't necessarily disrespecting the dead, correct? I can assume that they respect them in other ways. 
2. I don't see how the wars have anything to do with politics. Thousands of veterans died because of the mistakes of their government, I don't see that as a right/left issue. It's very nice to call them heroes but is it blasphemy to believe that they died in vain?

At the very least you can see now that there's another side to things let's not make a big deal over sitting down during an anthem.
His whole point is to make a statement disrespecting the country.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: elit on August 28, 2016, 10:13:39 PM
Really? We're having a thread to discuss kapernick?who cares what he thinks?  Wasting a sec on this gives His opinion  more credence than it deserves
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 28, 2016, 10:15:26 PM
Really? We're having a thread to discuss kapernick?who cares what he thinks?  Wasting a sec on this gives His opinion  more credence than it deserves
We are not discussing him. We are discussing the fans who burned jerseys.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2016, 10:33:56 PM
@yuneeq, I wonder if our grandparents, who in America finally stopped being persecuted for being Jews, would agree with you.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: elit on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 PM
We are not discussing him. We are discussing the fans who burned jerseys.
Oh.  Sorry just saw the headline and refused to read the thread
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: zale on August 28, 2016, 10:56:19 PM
Dumb thing to do because will hate him for it but I have no problem with him sitting.
Patriotism is the only religion that if anyone dares question their loyalty they are burnt at the stake.

Patriotism in the American sense of the word is the polar opposite of religion. Patriotism means that you believe in everyone's right to freedom and liberty, and to live their lives as they see fit. Religion entails a set of rules that everyone must follow.

"Pledging allegiance" is pledging that you will fight to protect everyone's freedom, ironically, even those who don't take the pledge.

Nevertheless, "not standing" for the anthem or pledge means that you do NOT believe in these freedoms and that you are NOT ready to fight to protect them.

Your "grievances" with the government or police etc. don't excuse you for not standing up to protect the freedoms of your fellow countrymen as they would do for you. There is simply no other way to interpret this behavior.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 11:03:15 PM
Once something has become an accepted way to respect their sacrifice to use it as a statement is offensive. That is exactly what he is intending it to be. If he would say that he feels that sitting is a better way to show respect people wouldn't care and would dismiss him as a kook.

Let us say that he has a good point about police brutality. It is still not something which the country stands for. If it exists as they claim it would be an issue which everyone would agree needs to be fixed. The symbolism of the flag is what is allowing him to be earning millions a year instead of working on a tobacco field. With his actions he is turning his back on all this country gave him.

Any reasonable person will realize that bigotry exists. Many of us have experienced it. But if a Jew would disrespect the country which has given more freedom than any other in thousands of years due to some bias against him he should be condemned.

So many thungs wrong with what you wrote.
So one by one.

1. The national anthem isn't an anthem to respect the dead. It is used when respecting the dead, but when they DON'T say "let's sing this anthem in honor of our troops/vets", it has nothing to do with them but rather America and everything it represents. Yes that includes the troops, but that also includes all the bad things along with it. Obviously if the anthem is recited in memory he is disrespecting those that sacrificed for him. Though it doesn't help that the NFL and other sports leagues are literally paid millions to respect the troops, if you ask me that's worse than sitting down during a random non-troop supporting anthem.

2. America has had a problem with police brutality and has done nothing to reel it in. The brutality stems from policies in place that promote cops to use bullets first and policies that say the cop is never guilty no matter how wrong he is. Cops rarely ever get convicted and that's policy. You want to say this flag represents America, you can't change the facts, America is comprised of xyz mostly good things but also bad things.

3. You're obviously a firm believer in american exceptionalis as you believe an athlete like him wouldn't get paid millions to play sports in other countries. Yep only in America. FYI soccer players worldwide aren't picking tobbaco, they are some of the highest paid athletes in the world.

4. Criticizing a countries policies isn't akin to disrespect. We live in a democracy where the beauty of it is that citizens desires can actually be passed into law. Protesting a policy is part of the democratic process, and might be more patriotic than anything you've ever done.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 11:09:34 PM
@yuneeq, I wonder if our grandparents, who in America finally stopped being persecuted for being Jews, would agree with you.

They would love the democratic process and would love to be involved.
The first time their voice has been heard and considered.

Kap is a great example of democracy, if people agree with him they'll fight alongside to change the laws, if they disagree they'll fight to keep the laws the way they are.
For me the greatness of America is all about:
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2016, 11:12:07 PM
They would love the democratic process and would love to be involved.
The first time their voice has been heard and considered.

Kap is a great example of democracy, if people agree with him they'll fight alongside to change the laws, if they disagree they'll fight to keep the laws the way they are.
For me the greatness of America is all about:
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Exactly. That's why we don't jail Kapernick. We burn his jersey.

He has the legal right. That doesn't make him right.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 11:19:43 PM
Exactly. That's why we don't jail Kapernick. We burn his jersey.

He has the legal right. That doesn't make him right.

And that's fine with me.
I don't think he's wrong or right he's just making a stand for what he believes in, but he's definitely dumb as an athlete for alienating his fan base.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 28, 2016, 11:24:12 PM
Somwthing to think about. .

If someone lived 20 years after our glorious country was founded but when slavery was still legal.
What would you say if that person BURNED the flag and sat down during the anthem in protest of slavery? Wuod you be okay with it?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 28, 2016, 11:27:00 PM
The philosophy of patriotism is very complex. Some believe it is "religious" in nature, others said that " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

ואין עכשיו העת להאריך..
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on August 28, 2016, 11:32:16 PM
Anyone that's traveled extensively knows what an amazing nation this is.

There are better ways to protest than when we honor those who gave their lives for our freedom.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 01:44:17 AM
1. So those that sit aren't necessarily disrespecting the dead, correct? I can assume that they respect them in other ways. 
2. I don't see how the wars have anything to do with politics. Thousands of veterans died because of the mistakes of their government, I don't see that as a right/left issue. It's very nice to call them heroes but is it blasphemy to believe that they died in vain?

At the very least you can see now that there's another side to things let's not make a big deal over sitting down during an anthem.
I should make a correction first. We are not only talking about those that died serving this country but all those that serve this country.

If we go to war or not has a lot to do with politics. The soldiers don't get a choice in those matters and are just serving their country no matter if you think the decision to go to war was right or wrong. Sitting during the anthem IMHO is disrespecting all of them even if you feel you can respect them in other ways.

During the Vietnam (major politics involved) war the flag was burned, returning soldiers were spat upon and called baby killers. Would you consider any of those behaviors disrespectful?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 02:06:26 AM
Anyone that's traveled extensively knows what an amazing nation this is.

Doesn't mean that there are no issues. As I wrote, in the times of slavery we were also the greatest.

Quote
There are better ways to protest than when we honor those who gave their lives for our freedom.

As I said before, the national anthem isn't a song about honoring troops besides for when it's used in that context.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 02:27:01 AM
I should make a correction first. We are not only talking about those that died serving this country but all those that serve this country.

Of course

Quote
If we go to war or not has a lot to do with politics. The soldiers don't get a choice in those matters and are just serving their country no matter if you think the decision to go to war was right or wrong. Sitting during the anthem IMHO is disrespecting all of them even if you feel you can respect them in other ways.

They fought for their country that made a big mistake. Countries make mistakes. We have to admit that to learn from those mistakes. It's unfortunate that soldiers die and get injured for no reason, you're trying too hard to put meaning to meaningless deaths. The soldiers deserve recognition for being willing to give everything to their country despite the results. Lets not rewrite history and claim every soldier saved America.

And again, the national anthem is the national anthem, not a specific salute to the troops.

Quote
During the Vietnam (major politics involved) war the flag was burned, returning soldiers were spat upon and called baby killers. Would you consider any of those behaviors disrespectful?

Flag burning - I wouldn't do but I'd be okay with in that context. How many people including US soldiers were killed because of a useless war because we wanted to show the world who's boss? When the government doesn't care about its soldiers, its people, why should the people care about the governments symbols?

Spitting on soldiers, calling them names - definite no-no, doesn't even need to be asked.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 09:10:00 AM
They fought for their country that made a big mistake. Countries make mistakes. We have to admit that to learn from those mistakes. It's unfortunate that soldiers die and get injured for no reason, you're trying too hard to put meaning to meaningless deaths. The soldiers deserve recognition for being willing to give everything to their country despite the results. Lets not rewrite history and claim every soldier saved America.
So how do you decide which deaths have meaning and which ones did not? How do you decide which ones saved America and which ones didn't? Is it based on winning a war? Is it based on if you think the war is just or not? They don't get to make those choices.

No matter the outcome of the war or the politics involved in sending them to war they all have the same meaning.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 11:22:09 AM
So how do you decide which deaths have meaning and which ones did not? How do you decide which ones saved America and which ones didn't? Is it based on winning a war? Is it based on if you think the war is just or not? They don't get to make those choices.

No matter the outcome of the war or the politics involved in sending them to war they all have the same meaning.

Nothing to do with winners and losers (although it must be noted that history is (re)written by the victors). It has to do with just or not. Not all wars are created equally.
I'll admit that not every war can be determined in hindsight whether it was just or not.
But some can be determined.

If we're trying to be honest, if you were from Japan, I don't think you would commemorate soldiers that fought along with the Nazis. Just because you're a soldier "doing your job" which entails risking your life for your country, does not mean that you deserve honor for fighting on the side that is clearly in the wrong.

To put it succintly- people die without purpose or meaning all the time. Sometimes those people are soldiers.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 29, 2016, 12:37:49 PM
So many thungs wrong with what you wrote.
So one by one.

1. The national anthem isn't an anthem to respect the dead. It is used when respecting the dead, but when they DON'T say "let's sing this anthem in honor of our troops/vets", it has nothing to do with them but rather America and everything it represents. Yes that includes the troops, but that also includes all the bad things along with it. Obviously if the anthem is recited in memory he is disrespecting those that sacrificed for him. Though it doesn't help that the NFL and other sports leagues are literally paid millions to respect the troops, if you ask me that's worse than sitting down during a random non-troop supporting anthem.

2. America has had a problem with police brutality and has done nothing to reel it in. The brutality stems from policies in place that promote cops to use bullets first and policies that say the cop is never guilty no matter how wrong he is. Cops rarely ever get convicted and that's policy. You want to say this flag represents America, you can't change the facts, America is comprised of xyz mostly good things but also bad things.

3. You're obviously a firm believer in american exceptionalis as you believe an athlete like him wouldn't get paid millions to play sports in other countries. Yep only in America. FYI soccer players worldwide aren't picking tobbaco, they are some of the highest paid athletes in the world.

4. Criticizing a countries policies isn't akin to disrespect. We live in a democracy where the beauty of it is that citizens desires can actually be passed into law. Protesting a policy is part of the democratic process, and might be more patriotic than anything you've ever done.
1. You are right that this is not because of it honoring those killed. It is because it is an insult to the whole country. That may be worse than if it were for soldiers.

2. I disagree wholeheartedly with your entire statement that there is a systemic police brutality problem and even more so with your statement that nothing has been done. America has been at the forefront in preventing police overkill. Does that mean it never happens? of course not. I challenge you to bring policies showing that police should use bullets first. Police rarely get convicted, but that is mostly because they are in a position where it is easy to make a self defense case. What policies do you propose to implement? Even if there is a systemic issue that is not a reason anyhow.

3. Straw man alert. This has zero to do with whether other countries have similar freedoms-and possibly better ones than America. You want to debate that go ahead but it has nothing to do with this conversation or anything I wrote here.

4. THere is a big difference between criticizing a policy and  burning a flag over it. His sitting was meant as a statement similar to burning a flag. It was meant to say that he is protesting over something which delegitimizes the country. When Iran burns an Israeli flag that is the statement they are making. If he feels there is concern here he can protest in other ways like the players who walked onto the field with their hands up (hands up don't shoot). What kinds of policies should one consider to delegitimaze the country? High/low taxes? Obamacare?  He intended to insult the country and was succesful at it. Now those insulted are acting insulted.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 01:03:57 PM
1. You are right that this is not because of it honoring those killed. It is because it is an insult to the whole country. That may be worse than if it were for soldiers.

2. I disagree wholeheartedly with your entire statement that there is a systemic police brutality problem and even more so with your statement that nothing has been done. America has been at the forefront in preventing police overkill. Does that mean it never happens? of course not. I challenge you to bring policies showing that police should use bullets first. Police rarely get convicted, but that is mostly because they are in a position where it is easy to make a self defense case. What policies do you propose to implement? Even if there is a systemic issue that is not a reason anyhow.

3. Straw man alert. This has zero to do with whether other countries have similar freedoms-and possibly better ones than America. You want to debate that go ahead but it has nothing to do with this conversation or anything I wrote here.

4. THere is a big difference between criticizing a policy and  burning a flag over it. His sitting was meant as a statement similar to burning a flag. It was meant to say that he is protesting over something which delegitimizes the country. When Iran burns an Israeli flag that is the statement they are making. If he feels there is concern here he can protest in other ways like the players who walked onto the field with their hands up (hands up don't shoot). What kinds of policies should one consider to delegitimaze the country? High/low taxes? Obamacare?  He intended to insult the country and was succesful at it. Now those insulted are acting insulted.

1. Feel free to get offended at someone's use of free speech to bring up an issue he believes in, it absolutely doesn't bother me. If you need some tissues, I found a good deal.

2. Truly laughable. I posted an article before with clear proof of systemic police killings. Either admit you didn't read it or debate the facts. There are countless stories where the cop goes free simply for saying they didn't know they were breaking the law.

3. Not a straw man at all. You said that America allows him to make millions of dollars tossing a football as opposed to picking tobacco. Which directly implies that the opportunity to make millions as an athlete is exclusive to America, if he doesn't like it he can go back to picking tobacco. No, he has the option to make millions as an athlete anywhere in the world. Yelling "straw man!" doesn't help you here.

4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Holy frickin' cow.
Not worth responding to as we're not on the same page.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 01:10:10 PM
4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 01:16:11 PM
Keep in mind that the police brutality numbers don't include the harassment that don't end in fatality.  Thankfully technology has given us the ability to see what others experience all too often. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 29, 2016, 01:16:46 PM
1. Feel free to get offended at someone's use of free speech to bring up an issue he believes in, it absolutely doesn't bother me. If you need some tissues, I found a good deal.

2. Truly laughable. I posted an article before with clear proof of systemic police killings. Either admit you didn't read it or debate the facts. There are countless stories where the cop goes free simply for saying they didn't know they were breaking the law.

3. Not a straw man at all. You said that America allows him to make millions of dollars tossing a football as opposed to picking tobacco. Which directly implies that the opportunity to make millions as an athlete is exclusive to America, if he doesn't like it he can go back to picking tobacco. No, he has the option to make millions as an athlete anywhere in the world. Yelling "straw man!" doesn't help you here.

4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Holy frickin' cow.
Not worth responding to as we're not on the same page.
1. Trust me I won't lose sleep over it but those who are upset are not wrong

2. There is certainly room for improvement. That is a big step from delegitamizing a country.

3. That America slides it does not in any way imply that it is exclusive in that regard. Should one not appreciate something just because others do the same maybe even better?

4. Similar/= equal. The similarity between them is the intent of the protest. Obviously one takes it much further than the other.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 29, 2016, 01:17:59 PM
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.
from of speech is irrelevant. There is no call for him to be criminally punished. We are simply seeing other excessive their free speech against him.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 01:24:13 PM
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.

Maybe not.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/fernandoalfonso/2016/07/04/illinois-man-charged-with-desecrating-american-flag-after-posting-photos-on-facebook/#3a72aa1e598f

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: MosheD on August 29, 2016, 01:25:25 PM
Hmmm.
I one time sat for the national anthem (my feet were tired) and noone made a big deal...
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 01:32:07 PM
Maybe not.
SCOTUS took the maybe out of it a long time ago.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 01:38:25 PM
1. Trust me I won't lose sleep over it but those who are upset are not wrong

2. There is certainly room for improvement. That is a big step from delegitamizing a country.

3. That America slides it does not in any way imply that it is exclusive in that regard. Should one not appreciate something just because others do the same maybe even better?

4. Similar/= equal. The similarity between them is the intent of the protest. Obviously one takes it much further than the other.

1. IMHO there is no right and wrong on this issue, people feel whatever way they want, that's their right.

2. Who said that admitting their are issues like police brutality delegitimizes the country? The country has many issues, one of them police brutality, and he wants to highlight it so we can improve.

3. Who said he doesn't appreciate what the US did for him? Just because he is happy with his life means he cannot have a voice? He is not allowed to speak for others that he feels are victimized? It's really easy to be happy with status quo when you are on top of the world.

4. The fact that you think they are similar is enough for me to realize that we are not on the same page.
I only enjoy debating when the sides aren't so far apart and filled with exaggerations.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 01:54:25 PM
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.

To me it's like saying that a guy who beats up his wife with a bat is basically the same as a guy that yells at his wife.
Yes, they're both forms of domestic abuse but they're issues of completely different levels of severity.

Burning a flag is done out of anger and is usually accompanied by "Death to [America/Israel/Infidels]" chants.
Not standing up for a flag is a protest of disappointment, saying, "I'm embarrassed by some of this countries policies, why should stand up and respect it?".

To answer your question with snark, liberals and conservatives are all saying the same thing, after all their speech is protected by the 1st amendment.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 29, 2016, 02:01:57 PM
1. IMHO there is no right and wrong on this issue, people feel whatever way they want, that's their right.

2. Who said that admitting their are issues like police brutality delegitimizes the country? The country has many issues, one of them police brutality, and he wants to highlight it so we can improve.

3. Who said he doesn't appreciate what the US did for him? Just because he is happy with his life means he cannot have a voice? He is not allowed to speak for others that he feels are victimized? It's really easy to be happy with status quo when you are on top of the world.

4. The fact that you think they are similar is enough for me to realize that we are not on the same page.
I only enjoy debating when the sides aren't so far apart and filled with exaggerations.
He said that a country with these issues does not deserve for him to stand for it or something along those lines. That is the gist of the protest and how he intended it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:11:17 PM
To me it's like saying that a guy who beats up his wife with a bat is basically the same as a guy that yells at his wife.
This is where you lose me. One is illegal and one isn't. Maybe use the analogy where I guy poisons his wife in her sleep and the other kills her with a baseball bat. They are both murder but the poisoning isn't as severe so it is not the same?

He has a right to sit or burn. No one is arguing that point. The point we are making it is a sign of disrespect. He can make his point without disrespecting the flag or those who serve defending it. When you disrespect the flag that tells me a lot about the individual.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:13:45 PM
He said that a country with these issues does not deserve for him to stand for it or something along those lines. That is the gist of the protest and how he intended it.
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,"

According to this logic we should no person of a minority standing up for the flag. I better not see any Jew standing up.  :)
Good thing 99% of the country is messed up as this kid is in his thinking.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 02:15:57 PM
This is where you lose me. One is illegal and one isn't. Maybe use the analogy where I guy poisons his wife in her sleep and the other kills her with a baseball bat. They are both murder but the poisoning isn't as severe so it is not the same?

He has a right to sit or burn. No one is arguing that point. The point we are making it is a sign of disrespect. He can make his point without disrespecting the flag or those who serve defending it. When you disrespect the flag that tells me a lot about the individual.

How do you suggest he make his point?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 02:19:32 PM
This is where you lose me. One is illegal and one isn't. Maybe use the analogy where I guy poisons his wife in her sleep and the other kills her with a baseball bat. They are both murder but the poisoning isn't as severe so it is not the same?

He has a right to sit or burn. No one is arguing that point. The point we are making it is a sign of disrespect. He can make his point without disrespecting the flag or those who serve defending it. When you disrespect the flag that tells me a lot about the individual.

Well you are wrong.
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/spousal-abuse-laws.html

I disagree about your "disrespect" points but no need to repeat myself.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:20:02 PM
How do you suggest he make his point?
How about donating 10 million to a cause that helps young black kids? That will grab some headlines and he doesn't have to disrespect anyone doing it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 02:22:46 PM
How about donating 10 million to a cause that helps young black kids? That will grab some headlines and he doesn't have to disrespect anyone doing it.

That will stop police brutality??
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:24:57 PM
Well you are wrong.
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/spousal-abuse-laws.html
No I am not wrong. Yelling by itself at someone is not illegal. It better go farther than that.

Verbal abuse (such as threats of physical harm, intimidating language, or degrading language)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:26:39 PM
That will stop police brutality??
Then donate to causes that bring the problem to the forefront. How the hell is sitting during the Anthem going to stop police brutality?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Then donate to causes that bring the problem to the forefront. How the hell is sitting during the Anthem going to stop police brutality?

By the fact that it made the news and you and I are talking about it is proof that he successfully brought the problem to the forefront.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 02:28:46 PM
No I am not wrong. Yelling by itself at someone is not illegal. It better go farther than that.

Verbal abuse (such as threats of physical harm, intimidating language, or degrading language)

It depends on what is being yelled, so yes verbal abuse can be abuse but beating someone with a bat is another level.
You got my point well.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 29, 2016, 02:29:35 PM
Then donate to causes that bring the problem to the forefront. How the hell is sitting during the Anthem going to stop police brutality?

How does a football wearing a pink ribbon stop breast cancer?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 29, 2016, 02:34:30 PM
By the fact that it made the news and you and I are talking about it is proof that he successfully brought the problem to the forefront.
Please, No one needed Kepernick to bring awareness, it's all over the media. If he wanted to make a diffrence he could have found a more effective way to do it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 29, 2016, 02:35:30 PM
How does a football wearing a pink ribbon stop breast cancer?
It brings awareness.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 02:35:38 PM
Please, No one needed Kepernick to bring awareness, it's all over the media. If he wanted to make a diffrence he could have found a more effective way to do it.

Such as?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on August 29, 2016, 02:36:18 PM
No I am not wrong. Yelling by itself at someone is not illegal. It better go farther than that.

Verbal abuse (such as threats of physical harm, intimidating language, or degrading language)

But desecrating the flag will stop police brutality?

Would being accused of raping women stop police brutality?

Kaepernick is worth approximately $126 million. I suggest that if he doesn’t like America, he take his BLM Muslim bride and head to the Middle East.   

It’s scary how BLM and Muslim/Anti Israel events go hand and hand…….  It’s their deep seated resentment for all things American that they can’t stand.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 29, 2016, 02:38:01 PM
Such as?
Let him figure that out.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:41:02 PM
You got my point well.
I got that your not making a very good point.  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:42:18 PM
How does a football wearing a pink ribbon stop breast cancer?
There is a positive and a negative way to make a point. It should be obvious to everyone which is which.

I bet you most don't even know what point he was trying to make.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 29, 2016, 02:45:11 PM
Such as?
the way other players did by wishing onto the field with his hands raised hands up don't shoot
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:51:17 PM
the way other players did by wishing onto the field with his hands raised hands up don't shoot
How about we keep this crap out of sporting events. We tune in for the game not this BS. Go on TV, radio, internet, rallys or a thousand other ways to get your message across.

Did anyone watch the Olympics? The pride these athletes from all walks of life showed for their country was amazing. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on August 29, 2016, 02:56:15 PM
How about we keep this crap out of sporting events. We tune in for the game not this BS. Go on TV, radio, internet, rallys or a thousand other ways to get your message across.

Did anyone watch the Olympics? The pride these athletes from all walks of life showed for their country was amazing.

I agree, and if wasn't a has-been and delegated to holding a clipboard he wouldn't be making this stand. He is only doing it now because he has nothing to lose.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on August 29, 2016, 02:57:50 PM
I agree, and if wasn't a has-been and delegated to holding a clipboard he wouldn't be making this stand. He is only doing it now because he has nothing to lose.
He has more to gain now actually. He can kvetch about being benched for political reasons rather than being washed up.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
I agree, and if wasn't a has-been and delegated to holding a clipboard he wouldn't be making this stand. He is only doing it now because he has nothing to lose.
When then cut him he will say it is because of this. Makes you wonder if he gives a damn about any cause except his own.

ETA: Talk about great minds.  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: jj1000 on August 29, 2016, 03:45:29 PM
By the fact that it made the news and you and I are talking about it is proof that he successfully brought the problem to the forefront.
I agree he accomplished more than he ever dreamed he would of.

How does a football wearing a pink ribbon stop breast cancer?
I heard the NFL denied the Cowboys from wearing stickers for the cops that were killed in Dallas, pretty crazy.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on August 29, 2016, 04:54:59 PM
He has more to gain now actually. He can kvetch about being benched for political reasons rather than being washed up.

He lost his starting job and probably was going to get released, now he can blame his release on something other than his on field performance.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 04:58:07 PM
  I heard the NFL denied the Cowboys from wearing stickers for the cops that were killed in Dallas, pretty crazy.
That would open a can of worms.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Yehuda57 on August 29, 2016, 05:08:04 PM
I thought this was a great response, which addresses much of what has been discussed in this thread.

This http://ijr.com/2016/08/681907-army-ranger-vet-tells-colin-kaepernick-what-he-should-be-doing-instead-of-sitting-out-natl-anthem/
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Proisrael on August 29, 2016, 05:44:32 PM
By the fact that it made the news and you and I are talking about it is proof that he successfully brought the problem to the forefront.

So in the same vein those BLM burning the flags are OK with what they are doing because its bringing the issue to the news? this guy is a failure and wanted to change the topic.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 06:11:09 PM
So in the same vein those BLM burning the flags are OK with what they are doing because its bringing the issue to the news? this guy is a failure and wanted to change the topic.

Yes, what's wrong if they aren't harming anyone other than feelings.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 29, 2016, 06:31:24 PM
By the fact that it made the news and you and I are talking about it is proof that he successfully brought the problem to the forefront.
We are talking about if this guy disrespected all those that have served. His issue is a nonissue. Nobody cares and most don't even know why he did it. All they know is he did it and they are upset over it.
Title: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 29, 2016, 07:06:43 PM
We are talking about if this guy disrespected all those that have served. His issue is a nonissue. Nobody cares and most don't even know why he did it. All they know is he did it and they are upset over it.

What does this have to do with the military? They most certainly now know why he did it. And btw, it's not a non issue.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on August 29, 2016, 08:33:19 PM
So in the same vein those BLM burning the flags are OK with what they are doing because its bringing the issue to the news? this guy is a failure and wanted to change the topic.

Would love to see a guy bring a confederate flag into an event so he could bring his issue (whatever it maybe) to the forefront.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 30, 2016, 01:01:33 AM
What does this have to do with the military?
What planet are you living on. You don't understand the connection between the flag and all those that serve?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: David Smith on August 30, 2016, 01:03:29 AM
What planet are you living on. You don't understand the connection between the flag and all those that serve?
Forget about if me or you do; you think this guy does?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 30, 2016, 01:04:51 AM
Forget about if me or you do; you think this guy does?
Obviously Menachem613 and Kaep don't.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 30, 2016, 07:24:12 AM
What planet are you living on. You don't understand the connection between the flag and all those that serve?
I understand the connection. But I don't agree that the military is in any way the main theme or reason for respecting the flag/anthem.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 30, 2016, 07:30:47 AM
I understand the connection. But I don't agree that the military is in any way the main theme or reason for respecting the flag/anthem.
That is understandable coming from you.  :P
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 30, 2016, 09:18:25 AM
I understand the connection. But I don't agree that the military is in any way the main theme or reason for respecting the flag/anthem.

Of course a flag is all about military.
That's why countries like Japan with no real military got rid of their flags.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 30, 2016, 09:23:36 AM
That's why countries like Japan with no real military got rid of their flags.
Don't they use the US flag?  :P
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on August 30, 2016, 11:03:02 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/george-diaz-en-fuego/os-colin-kaepernick-castro-t-shirt-20160830-story.html
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 30, 2016, 11:34:36 PM
Kaepernick's real name is Zack de la Rocha, also known the frontman for Rage against the Machine.
Now it all makes sense.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: coralsnake on August 30, 2016, 11:35:49 PM
Kaepernick's real name is Zack de la Rocha, also known the frontman for Rage against the Machine.
Now it all makes sense.
ALOL! Wow
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 12:24:25 AM
I watched 5 or 6 different sports programs yesterday and they were all talking about. They hardly even mentioned the so called cause he was trying to bring attention to.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on August 31, 2016, 01:18:27 AM
I haven't heard of this guy before. I haven't followed football in years ('85 Bears really) but I can tell you one thing. If you would give this guy an hour of free airtime to express his views on the issue he was trying to call attention to, he wouldn't be able to say anything articulate. He doesn't even know what it is that he stood up, er I mean, sat down for. If he were intelligent and cared about the issue, he could have used his position of influence to carry his message, but he has no message, other than that he is arrogant and dumb.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 01:50:07 AM
So only those that can articulate to your standards should speak up? If you watched his interview please post what part you didn't understand and I will try and translate it for you.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on August 31, 2016, 01:54:04 AM
Eh, stop trying to pick a fight. You already admitted upthread that you thought his actions were stupid too.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 01:57:25 AM
Eh, stop trying to pick a fight. You already admitted upthread that you thought his actions were stupid too.
I said his actions were disrespectful. Basically saying he is a dumb ass sports jock is not the same. If I wanted to pick a fight I would have said knock of the racist comments.  :P
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on August 31, 2016, 01:59:14 AM
I said his actions were disrespectful. Basically saying he is a dumb ass sports jock is not the same. If I wanted to pick a fight I would have said knock of the racist comments.  :P

I don't think he's dumb because he's an athlete. That's not a reliable stereotype. Many athletes are intelligent, especially QBs. I think he's dumb for other reasons. I could elaborate if you're interested.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 02:05:03 AM
Here is what he said. I don't agree with it but it is clear what he is talking about.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

Just in case anyone didn't understand the last sentence. He is talking about what he believes are innocent blacks getting killed by cops. The cops then are put on paid leave while the situation is being investigated.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JayR on August 31, 2016, 02:12:35 AM
https://theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/

Anyone up to write a new National Anthem?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on August 31, 2016, 02:36:09 AM
Here is the full post-game interview.
Judge for yourself.

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 31, 2016, 08:59:11 AM
I haven't heard of this guy before. I haven't followed football in years ('85 Bears really) but I can tell you one thing. If you would give this guy an hour of free airtime to express his views on the issue he was trying to call attention to, he wouldn't be able to say anything articulate. He doesn't even know what it is that he stood up, er I mean, sat down for. If he were intelligent and cared about the issue, he could have used his position of influence to carry his message, but he has no message, other than that he is arrogant and dumb.

I had no problem understanding his message. Which part did you fail to comprehend?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: David Smith on August 31, 2016, 09:05:02 AM
I haven't heard of this guy before. I haven't followed football in years ('85 Bears really) but I can tell you one thing. If you would give this guy an hour of free airtime to express his views on the issue he was trying to call attention to, he wouldn't be able to say anything articulate. He doesn't even know what it is that he stood up, er I mean, sat down for. If he were intelligent and cared about the issue, he could have used his position of influence to carry his message, but he has no message, other than that he is arrogant and dumb.
He said "Stop torturing and killing us". Kapisch?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: jj1000 on August 31, 2016, 09:10:04 AM
So only those that can articulate to your standards should speak up? If you watched his interview please post what part you didn't understand and I will try and translate it for you.
Troll alert :P

He said basically what you've been saying all thread. No one knows why he did it is what you've been saying, and Freddie pointed out if he had facts to back up his sentiment he should be on every news channel right know displaying how his views are justified. He would get any and every interview he wants right now.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 31, 2016, 09:13:52 AM
You guys are claiming that you didn't understand him or that he didn't have facts. What you really mean is that you disagree with him. Be honest.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on August 31, 2016, 09:18:27 AM
Anyone that's traveled extensively knows what an amazing nation this is.

There are better ways to protest than when we honor those who gave their lives for our freedom.

#VeteransForKaepernick
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 09:30:25 AM
Troll alert :P

He said basically what you've been saying all thread. No one knows why he did it is what you've been saying, and Freddie pointed out if he had facts to back up his sentiment he should be on every news channel right know displaying how his views are justified. He would get any and every interview he wants right now.
You can troll, we don't mind.

Nobody knows why he did it because they don't care why. If you listen to him you know exactly why he says he did it but here is my counter point made by a hot blonde.

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: jj1000 on August 31, 2016, 09:33:24 AM
You can troll, we don't mind.

Nobody knows why he did it because they don't care why. If you listen to him you know exactly why he says he did it but here is my counter point made by a hot blonde.

The noobs may let you get away with flopping but you can't fool me. Play devil's advocate all you want, just don't expect me not to call a flip when I see it.

It takes a special type of troll to always speak to vague they can say whatever they want and act like they never said an opinion.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 09:38:50 AM
The noobs may let you get away with flopping but you can't fool me. Play devil's advocate all you want, just don't expect me not to call a flip when I see it.

It takes a special type of troll to always speak to vague they can say whatever they want and act like they never said an opinion.
If you are going to try and out troll this n00b you better bring it. From the beginning I have said he disrespected the flag. I knew the reason why he did but totally disagree with it. If you have some facts to add please do.  :P
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on August 31, 2016, 09:53:06 AM
(http://truthfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/xColin-Kaepernick-01-10-800x416.jpg.pagespeed.ic.86fmGKeGRB.jpg)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 31, 2016, 10:09:37 AM
From fb:

An Open Letter to Colin Kaepernick,

Dear Colin guess you have been pretty busy these last few days. For the record I don’t think any more or less of you for not standing for the National Anthem. Honestly, I never thought that much about you, or any professional athlete for that matter, to begin with. I’ve read your statement a few times and want you to know I am one of the reasons you are protesting. You see I am a retired police officer that had the misfortune of having to shoot and kill a 19-year-old African American male. And just like you said, I was the recipient of about $3,000 a month while on leave which was a good thing because I had to support a wife and three children under 7-years-old for about 2 months with that money. Things were pretty tight because I couldn’t work part time. Every police officer I’ve ever known has worked part-time to help make ends meet.

You know Colin the more I think about it the more we seem to have in common. I really pushed myself in rehab to get back on the street, kind of like you do to get back on the field. You probably have had a broken bone or two and some muscle strains and deep bruising that needed a lot of work. I just had to bounce back from a gunshot wound to the chest and thigh. Good thing we both get paid when we are too banged up to “play”, huh? We both also know what it’s like to get blindsided. You by a 280- pound defensive end, ouch! Me, by a couple of rounds fired from a gun about 2 feet away, into my chest and thigh. We also both make our living wearing uniforms, right? You have probably ruined a jersey or two on the field of play. I still have my blood stained shirt that my partner and paramedics literally ripped off my back that cold night in January. Fortunately, like you I was given a new one. Speaking of paramedics aren’t you glad the second we get hurt trainers and doctors are standing by waiting to rush onto the field to scoop us up. I’m thankful they get to you in seconds. It only took them about 10 minutes to get to me. By the grace of God, the artery in my thigh didn’t rupture or else 10 minutes would have been about 9 minutes too late. We also have both experienced the hate and disgust others have just because of those uniforms we wear. I sure am glad for your sake that the folks who wear my uniform are on hand to escort you and those folks that wear your uniform into stadiums in places like Seattle!

I guess that’s where the similarities end Colin. You entertain for a living, I and almost 800,000 others across this country serve and protect. Are there some bad apples within my profession? Absolutely and they need to be identified and fired or arrested! But you know what, the vast majority do the right thing, the right way, for the right reason. Did I mention that seconds before I was shot, an elderly African American gentleman walking down the sidewalk, turned to my partner and I as we rode past and said, “Get them.” Get who you ask? The thugs terrorizing an otherwise good and decent neighborhood, home to dozens of good, decent African American families trying to raise those families in communities not protected by gates and security guards. No these folks and families depend on America’s Law Enforcement Officers.

Colin I have buried 7 friends, killed in the line of duty and three others who have committed suicide. I have attended more funerals than I care to remember of neighboring departments who have lost officers in the line of duty, during my career. Law Enforcement Officers with different backgrounds, upbringings, and experiences united by their willingness to answer the call to protect and serve their fellow citizens.

Colin I am sorry for the endorsement deals you may lose and the dip in jersey sales, but please know you will NEVER lose what these men and women and their families have lost. And so whether you stand or sit during the National Anthem or not means very little to me. As for me and the men and women on whose team I was privileged to serve, we will put on our ballistic vests, badge, and gun, kiss our loved one’s goodbye, for some tragically for the last time, and out into a shift of uncertainty we will go. We will continue to protect and continue to serve and we will be standing at attention Colin, not just for the playing of our National Anthem, but far more importantly for the playing of Taps.

V/R
 Chris Amos
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on August 31, 2016, 10:10:07 AM
I'd say the bigger sin was wearing the X hat in 2016. Where did he even find that? Spike Lee had a garage sale?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: grodnoking on August 31, 2016, 10:39:51 AM


here is my counter point made by a hot blonde.



OUCH!!!
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: grodnoking on August 31, 2016, 10:44:33 AM
From fb:

An Open Letter to Colin Kaepernick,

Dear Colin guess you have been pretty busy these last few days. For the record I don’t think any more or less of you for not standing for the National Anthem. Honestly, I never thought that much about you, or any professional athlete for that matter, to begin with. I’ve read your statement a few times and want you to know I am one of the reasons you are protesting. You see I am a retired police officer that had the misfortune of having to shoot and kill a 19-year-old African American male. And just like you said, I was the recipient of about $3,000 a month while on leave which was a good thing because I had to support a wife and three children under 7-years-old for about 2 months with that money. Things were pretty tight because I couldn’t work part time. Every police officer I’ve ever known has worked part-time to help make ends meet.

You know Colin the more I think about it the more we seem to have in common. I really pushed myself in rehab to get back on the street, kind of like you do to get back on the field. You probably have had a broken bone or two and some muscle strains and deep bruising that needed a lot of work. I just had to bounce back from a gunshot wound to the chest and thigh. Good thing we both get paid when we are too banged up to “play”, huh? We both also know what it’s like to get blindsided. You by a 280- pound defensive end, ouch! Me, by a couple of rounds fired from a gun about 2 feet away, into my chest and thigh. We also both make our living wearing uniforms, right? You have probably ruined a jersey or two on the field of play. I still have my blood stained shirt that my partner and paramedics literally ripped off my back that cold night in January. Fortunately, like you I was given a new one. Speaking of paramedics aren’t you glad the second we get hurt trainers and doctors are standing by waiting to rush onto the field to scoop us up. I’m thankful they get to you in seconds. It only took them about 10 minutes to get to me. By the grace of God, the artery in my thigh didn’t rupture or else 10 minutes would have been about 9 minutes too late. We also have both experienced the hate and disgust others have just because of those uniforms we wear. I sure am glad for your sake that the folks who wear my uniform are on hand to escort you and those folks that wear your uniform into stadiums in places like Seattle!

I guess that’s where the similarities end Colin. You entertain for a living, I and almost 800,000 others across this country serve and protect. Are there some bad apples within my profession? Absolutely and they need to be identified and fired or arrested! But you know what, the vast majority do the right thing, the right way, for the right reason. Did I mention that seconds before I was shot, an elderly African American gentleman walking down the sidewalk, turned to my partner and I as we rode past and said, “Get them.” Get who you ask? The thugs terrorizing an otherwise good and decent neighborhood, home to dozens of good, decent African American families trying to raise those families in communities not protected by gates and security guards. No these folks and families depend on America’s Law Enforcement Officers.

Colin I have buried 7 friends, killed in the line of duty and three others who have committed suicide. I have attended more funerals than I care to remember of neighboring departments who have lost officers in the line of duty, during my career. Law Enforcement Officers with different backgrounds, upbringings, and experiences united by their willingness to answer the call to protect and serve their fellow citizens.

Colin I am sorry for the endorsement deals you may lose and the dip in jersey sales, but please know you will NEVER lose what these men and women and their families have lost. And so whether you stand or sit during the National Anthem or not means very little to me. As for me and the men and women on whose team I was privileged to serve, we will put on our ballistic vests, badge, and gun, kiss our loved one’s goodbye, for some tragically for the last time, and out into a shift of uncertainty we will go. We will continue to protect and continue to serve and we will be standing at attention Colin, not just for the playing of our National Anthem, but far more importantly for the playing of Taps.

V/R
 Chris Amos
Do you have a link for that?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 10:46:04 AM
Do you have a link for that?
Don't you belong to any white supremacist websites?  :P
https://www.facebook.com/chris.amos.96/posts/10154458693872505
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on August 31, 2016, 11:41:40 AM
Don't you belong to any white supremacist websites? 
https://www.facebook.com/chris.amos.96/posts/10154458693872505
Whyd you have to out me like that?!
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 31, 2016, 11:43:58 AM
You can troll, we don't mind.

Nobody knows why he did it because they don't care why. If you listen to him you know exactly why he says he did it but here is my counter point made by a hot blonde.



1) If you don't like America, leave? How idiotic. This is a democratic country.
If you don't like it, don't leave, CHANGE IT! That's the beauty of this place.
(Now I'm wondering why her ancestors didn't give black slaves the option of leaving).

2) He can't talk (or whine as she calls it) about racism because he grew up in a white household and didn't experience it?
The opposite, if he grew up in a black home you would say he's just giving excuses.
The fact that he sympathizes with people's problems that he doesn't experience himself is an admirable trait, even if you think he is misguided in his actions. I've never heard someone saying, "You don't have cancer, how dare you speak up about issues cancer patients face?".

3) Some other incoherent ramblings about freedom of speech, the national anthem, and patriotism.

4) He should rip up his paycheck. I didn't see this loony ripping up her paycheck to express her thoughts, but he should because why? The truth is, he did rip up paychecks to make his protest, also known as future endorsements and contracts.


My main point is, yelling at the camera doesn't make her more correct, it detracts from her arguments.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 11:56:42 AM
My main point is, yelling at the camera doesn't make her more correct, it detracts from her arguments.
You could have left the first four items out if this was your point.  ???
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 31, 2016, 12:09:04 PM
You could have left the first four items out if this was your point.  ???


It seems like the people here ate it up hook line and sinker.
I could have bashed her tone alone, but that's a fallacious argument.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 04:34:25 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-execs-kaepernick-is-a-traitor-hated-as-much-as-rae-carruth/ar-AAiklKL?li=BBnb7Kz

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 31, 2016, 05:33:56 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-execs-kaepernick-is-a-traitor-hated-as-much-as-rae-carruth/ar-AAiklKL?li=BBnb7Kz


Kaepernick has been looking worse and worse as the story goes on. But to compare him to a guy who was convicted for helping murder his girlfriend and baby is just absurd.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 05:44:00 PM
Kaepernick has been looking worse and worse as the story goes on. But to compare him to a guy who was convicted for helping murder his girlfriend and baby is just absurd.
The article makes that point.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 31, 2016, 05:52:06 PM
The article makes that point.

1) "[Carruth] was convicted of devising a plan to murder his pregnant girlfriend."
Forgets to mention that the murder actually took place, which is 20x worse than simply devising a plan.

2) "[Kaepernick] certainly doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Carruth."
So stop giving a voice to anonymous loonies and don't print extremely ridiculous comparisons!
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on August 31, 2016, 05:54:40 PM
So stop giving a voice to anonymous loonies and don't print extremely ridiculous comparisons!
Did you read the short article. The main point was you can put a fork in this guy.

"For those of you who are unfamiliar with Carruth’s story, the former star wide receiver remains in jail after he was convicted of devising a plan to murder his pregnant girlfriend.

That seems a bit harsh. Many people feel Kaepernick’s decision to protest the national anthem is disrespectful, but he certainly doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Carruth."
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on August 31, 2016, 06:02:52 PM
Did you read the short article. The main point was you can put a fork in this guy.

"For those of you who are unfamiliar with Carruth’s story, the former star wide receiver remains in jail after he was convicted of devising a plan to murder his pregnant girlfriend.

That seems a bit harsh. Many people feel Kaepernick’s decision to protest the national anthem is disrespectful, but he certainly doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Carruth."


I read the whole thing. Still don't agree in posting crazy comparisons that come from anonymous loonies who don't put anything on the line. It's not newsworthy until the journalist decided it is.

But yeah, Kaepernick is toast- unless he plays like a star again. And if that happens, teams will happily ignore his actions as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line, because that's all the matters at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 01, 2016, 01:57:57 PM

Can't wait for tonight's game as he will get booed profusely in San Diego, when the 49ers visit the Chargers for their final preseason game. Could you imagine that tonight is “Salute to the Military” night at San Diego’s Qualcomm Stadium. Going to be EPIC.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:02:19 PM
Could you imagine that tonight is “Salute to the Military” night at San Diego’s Qualcomm Stadium. Going to be EPIC.

He's getting a lot of support from veterans. Many believe that his protest is exactly the freedom that they fought for...
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 02:09:16 PM
He's getting a lot of support from veterans. Many believe that his protest is exactly the freedom that they fought for...

Really? Where did you learn that? Someone took a poll? Or a few well-placed op-eds gave you that impression?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 01, 2016, 02:10:17 PM
He's getting a lot of support from veterans. Many believe that his protest is exactly the freedom that they fought for...

I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 01, 2016, 02:14:45 PM
I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:18:42 PM
Really? Where did you learn that? Someone took a poll? Or a few well-placed op-eds gave you that impression?

There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:19:13 PM
I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.

Do you come from China?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:20:08 PM
I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 02:26:50 PM
There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:29:40 PM
As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!

It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 01, 2016, 02:30:07 PM
Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

I agree. That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.
You don't go to a library to protest against McDonald's.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 02:32:40 PM
It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side.
And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 02:55:11 PM
And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.

Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 03:04:26 PM
Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2016, 03:39:30 PM
There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah (https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah)



First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...
and this is correct.
That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.

I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrSdumSWcAMuSQ6.jpg)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 06:09:53 PM
Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 06:15:28 PM
First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.
 and this is correct.
I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrSdumSWcAMuSQ6.jpg)

Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 06:19:31 PM
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.
Not trying to make this personal. I don't know you. I'm not judging your character. I'm saying that all your JS posts follow a certain consistent ideology. That's why I feel like it's you who aren't talking about the issue. You're just reiterating your same old position from another platform.

I apologize if I'm not being nice or fair. I'm not trying to offend you.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 01, 2016, 06:44:30 PM
Is this guy for real?
http://my.xfinity.com/articles/news-sports/20160901/FBN--49ers-Kaepernick_s.Socks/
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on September 01, 2016, 06:48:22 PM
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

+1
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on September 01, 2016, 06:53:36 PM
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/439617/colin-kaepernicks-great-service-america
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2016, 07:11:19 PM
Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
Those same vets who are offended also agree that his and everyone else's right is what they fought to defend. What does that have to do with whether or not he is a piece of garbage for doing it? I also agree he has the right to be a piece of garbage.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 01, 2016, 07:29:21 PM
+1

I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Yehuda57 on September 01, 2016, 07:53:11 PM
I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.
Saying "I'm sure you're a great guy in person [as apposed to your online persona, which is not great]" is making it personal. You could have argued your point without bringing that up, twice.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 01, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
The one good thing that came out of all this is that Americans are starting to remember that we have rights.
Many people weren't so sure at first.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: rileywiles23 on September 01, 2016, 10:43:37 PM
Was a bit ironic watching kaep signing autographs during the game, with a whole bunch of officers behind him watching his back.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2016, 11:32:38 PM
The one good thing that came out of all this is that Americans are starting to remember that we have rights.
Many people weren't so sure at first.
all the liberals get a reminder of free speech each time someone does something offensive to promote a liberal cause.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 01, 2016, 11:49:39 PM
all the liberals get a reminder of free speech each time someone does something offensive to promote a liberal cause.

The conservatives sound like liberals in this case. He can do what he wants but he shouldn't because they get offended or because it hurts the feelings of vets or makes the flag sad.  Sounds like a reversal of roles in this case.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 01, 2016, 11:57:58 PM
The conservatives sound like liberals in this case. He can do what he wants but he shouldn't because they get offended or because it hurts the feelings of vets or makes the flag sad.  Sounds like a reversal of roles in this case.
Of course. Standard operating procedure. The one difference is that when the conservatives get offended they still don't try to criminalize it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 12:37:28 AM
The one good thing that came out of all this is that Americans are starting to remember that we have rights.
Many people weren't so sure at first.
No one is saying he doesn't have the right to sit. IMHO everyone knows that. The problem is having the right to do something is not the same as the right thing to do.

There are tons of ways to protest and make a statement without disrespecting those who have nothing to do with your beef.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 12:56:10 AM
No one is saying he doesn't have the right to sit. IMHO everyone knows that. The problem is having the right to do something is not the same as the right thing to do.

There are tons of ways to protest and make a statement without disrespecting those who have nothing to do with your beef.

Who gets to decide the "right way" and "wrong way"?  If his goal was to raise awareness, then this was definitely the right way. Will it ruffle feathers? Sure. Will it offend some? Sure.  But I think reasonable people can agree to disagree with him without calling him a piece of garbage as a commenter a few posts back did. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 12:59:02 AM
Who gets to decide the "right way" and "wrong way"? 
Everyone does as it is their right to do so. If they make an example out him chances are the next guy will think twice about doing what he did.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:00:26 AM
https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/1127907043914879:0

It looks like he's reaching out to the veteran community and starting a productive conversation.  You can disagree with his opinion but you should give credit where credit is due.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:04:23 AM
Everyone does as it is their right to do so. If they make an example out him chances are the next guy will think twice about doing what he did.

Wait until people start complaining about Jews that don't remove our hats/yarmulkes during the national anthem.  Then you'll suddenly see people say that there are things that are more important in life than the symbolism.  Vilifying someone you disagree with so that the next person keeps quiet is not the way that we can exchange ideas freely. It just creates an echo chamber of people that you agree with and disagree in the way that you dictate.  Not quite the free society that we'd hope for.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 01:11:30 AM
Wait until people start complaining about Jews that don't remove our hats/yarmulkes during the national anthem. 
If this was done to protest the Flag I would be the first one to be complaining.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:14:23 AM
The one difference is that when the conservatives get offended they still don't try to criminalize it.

I'm not challenging, I'm just not sure what you are referring to.  What are some recent cases where liberals have tried to criminalize offensive speech?

Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 01:16:40 AM
Who gets to decide the "right way" and "wrong way"?  If his goal was to raise awareness, then this was definitely the right way. Will it ruffle feathers? Sure. Will it offend some? Sure.  But I think reasonable people can agree to disagree with him without calling him a piece of garbage as a commenter a few posts back did. 
While I see that the comment definitely looks that way, I did not mean to call him a piece of garbage. I meant that in general someone can protest in a way that makes that person a piece of garbage. It was poorly written and I can no longer modify it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:17:19 AM
If this one done to protest the Flag I would be the first one to be complaining.

That's not my point. My point is that everyone has priorities. To an Orthodox Jew, covering their head is a higher priority than showing the accepted respect for the national anthem.  And to this quarterback, his protest is more important.  Some may disagree with the Jews and some may disagree with the QB but there is no objective right and wrong in either case.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 01:19:19 AM
I'm not challenging, I'm just not sure what you are referring to.  What are some recent cases where liberals have tried to criminalize offensive speech?


some cases where they tried to get religious organization's tax exempt status revoked over what they felt was offensive. Can't search for them now. You can include trying to force bakers to bake gay wedding cakes as well.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 01:19:47 AM
While I see that the comment definitely looks that way, I did not mean to call him a piece of garbage. I meant that in general someone can protest in a way that makes that person a piece of garbage. It was poorly written and I can no longer modify it.
After seeing him in the pig cop socks calling him a piece of garbage would not be fair to the garbage. Use him as the classic case of how not to do things.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 01:22:13 AM
After seeing him in the pig cop socks calling him a piece of garbage would not be fair to the garbage. Use him as the classic case of how not to do things.
I guess I am not as hard line on this as you are. I think the pig socks aren't as bad as the sitting. They at least have something to do with the issue.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:35:21 AM
I guess I am not as hard line on this as you are. I think the pig socks aren't as bad as the sitting. They at least have something to do with the issue.

It's not a matter of degree of hardline. It's that we all have different opinions and emotions. That's a good thing!  That's the point I've been trying to make. It's ok to soften the hardline and realize that there is no right and wrong in this case.  It's complicated and everyone looks at it differently.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 01:38:23 AM
some cases where they tried to get religious organization's tax exempt status revoked over what they felt was offensive. Can't search for them now. You can include trying to force bakers to bake gay wedding cakes as well.

Revoking tax exempt status is not criminalizing speech.   Your second case is a better example. Although that is just adding homosexuals to the class of citizens that you can't discriminate against.  It's closer to your point but still doesn't support your statement that liberals try to criminalize offensive speech.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 02:22:17 AM
I guess I am not as hard line on this as you are. I think the pig socks aren't as bad as the sitting. They at least have something to do with the issue.
It shows a pattern.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Menachem613 on September 02, 2016, 07:46:56 AM
It shows a pattern.

Nothing wrong with a pattern - if you agree with the statement. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 07:49:42 AM
Nothing wrong with a pattern - if you agree with the statement.
If the statement is hatred based then I agree with it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 09:31:34 AM
This is one messed up individual.

"While a naval officer sang the first notes of "The Star-Spangled Banner" and dozens of military members unfurled an oversized flag on the football field, Colin Kaepernick and Eric Reid dropped to one knee on the San Francisco 49ers' sideline."
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 09:38:20 AM
What's the symbolism of taking a knee instead of sitting. I don't know enough about football.  In little league, it's what the kids do to show respect when a player on the other team gets hurt.  Is it possible that this was a compromise and he was showing respect for the symbolism while still protesting?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 09:41:46 AM
Is it possible that this was a compromise and he was showing respect for the symbolism while still protesting?
Who knows.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 02, 2016, 09:45:52 AM
Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.

There are also vets that killed cops...Remember who killed the 5 cops in Dallas 2 months ago?? That's right an ex army vet
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 02, 2016, 09:46:34 AM
Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.



There are also vets that killed cops...Remember who killed the 5 cops in Dallas 2 months ago?? That's right an ex army vet
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 02, 2016, 09:48:18 AM
The conservatives sound like liberals in this case. He can do what he wants but he shouldn't because they get offended or because it hurts the feelings of vets or makes the flag sad.  Sounds like a reversal of roles in this case.

It's not just veterans...... it's all Americans he is offending.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 02, 2016, 10:00:02 AM
It's not just veterans...... it's all Americans he is offending.

Except those that disagree with you.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 10:03:03 AM
Except those that disagree with you.
Nope even those just they just don't realize it.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 10:03:32 AM
What's the symbolism of taking a knee instead of sitting. I don't know enough about football.  In little league, it's what the kids do to show respect when a player on the other team gets hurt.  Is it possible that this was a compromise and he was showing respect for the symbolism while still protesting?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/49ers/2016/09/01/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-police-socks/89743344/

He said kneeling rather than sitting was a gesture of respect for servicemen during the Chargers’ 28th annual Salute to the Military game.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2016, 10:15:41 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/49ers/2016/09/01/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem-protest-police-socks/89743344/

He said kneeling rather than sitting was a gesture of respect for servicemen during the Chargers’ 28th annual Salute to the Military game.
So he's getting a little smarter about this protest.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 02, 2016, 10:19:35 AM
So he's getting a little smarter about this protest.

Its all a game on his part, hence growing out the afro.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 02, 2016, 11:43:33 AM
Nope even those just they just don't realize it.

That's deep. Nice!
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Baruch on September 02, 2016, 11:46:22 AM
That's deep. Nice!
or shallow to those that disagree  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 11:47:43 AM
What's the symbolism of taking a knee instead of sitting. I don't know enough about football.  In little league, it's what the kids do to show respect when a player on the other team gets hurt.  Is it possible that this was a compromise and he was showing respect for the symbolism while still protesting?
That was my immediate thought. But who knows with this guy.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: username on September 02, 2016, 11:48:10 AM
I understand the connection. But I don't agree that the military is in any way the main theme or reason for respecting the flag/anthem.
Iknow nothing about this guy and his sit down.
However I do need to agree with CBC.
When we pleged allegience, wether in Kindergarden, or at our HS graduation, I just felt (proud) happy and lucky to be in a country that allowed us (and everyone else) the opportunity to practice relegion as we wished, and a country that allowed one to pursue their dream, and do all that they could to suceed.
My happiness was directed towards all my fellow countrymen, of all relegion, and mostly towards the govornment, who set up and enforced this system. Is the military a part of it? yes. But thats not what i was thinking about. (As I am older, my thoughts are the same, but maybe I also think of Baseball when I heat the anthem.)
No disrespect meant toward the military, but thats not what pops into my head when I see the flag.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 02:02:24 PM
How about donating 10 million to a cause that helps young black kids? That will grab some headlines and he doesn't have to disrespect anyone doing it.
Does this change anything
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/colin-kaepernick-says-hell-donate-1-million-to-charities-that-help-communities-in-need/amp/
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 02, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
He should have done that first. Timing is everything.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on September 02, 2016, 02:07:06 PM
He should have done that first. Timing is everything.
+1,000,000
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 02:07:54 PM
He should have done that first. Timing is everything.

+1,000,000
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 02:09:37 PM
Does this change anything
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/colin-kaepernick-says-hell-donate-1-million-to-charities-that-help-communities-in-need/amp/
How would a donation to BLM change anything?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
Does this change anything
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/colin-kaepernick-says-hell-donate-1-million-to-charities-that-help-communities-in-need/amp/
He should have done that first. Timing is everything.
+1,000,000
Next time he should check with DDF first before making a fool out of himself.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 03:00:10 PM
Next time he should check with DDF first before making a fool out of himself.
Advice that would serve many people well.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:01:22 PM
The guy just donated a million bucks, if you still don't like him it's fine, but don't blame it on timing.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
The guy just donated a million bucks, if you still don't like him it's fine, but don't blame it on timing.
The only reason hes donating 1M is because he almost ruined his career buy doing something so utterly stupid. So now he has to spend extra time and money to fix the issue he just caused.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 02, 2016, 03:07:20 PM
The guy just donated a million bucks, if you still don't like him it's fine, but don't blame it on timing.
to what
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 03:10:08 PM
The guy just donated a million bucks, if you still don't like him it's fine, but don't blame it on timing.
to what
What he donates to could make matters worse.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:12:13 PM
to what

How would a donation to BLM change anything?

Hint: BLM is a movement, not an organization
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:13:19 PM
The only reason hes donating 1M is because he almost ruined his career buy doing something so utterly stupid. So now he has to spend extra time and money to fix the issue he just caused.

He knew he would lose endorsements the second he decided to protest
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 03:15:36 PM
Hint: BLM is a movement, not an organization
Hint: http://blacklivesmatter.com/getinvolved/
Contact a local chapter, make a donation, make a purchase, find resources and actions.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:17:59 PM
Hint: http://blacklivesmatter.com/getinvolved/
Contact a local chapter, make a donation, make a purchase, find resources and actions.

"The phrase "Black Lives Matter" can refer to a Twitter hashtag, a slogan, a social movement, or a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice."
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 03:22:04 PM
"The phrase "Black Lives Matter" can refer to a Twitter hashtag, a slogan, a social movement, or a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice."
That is true except this one is an organization. Sometimes it is better just to accept you are in a hole and not dig it any deeper.  :)
This is the Official #BlackLivesMatter Organization founded by Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi, and Alicia Garza.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:24:59 PM
That is true except this one is an organization. Sometimes it is better just to accept you are in a hole and not dig it any deeper.  :)
This is the Official #BlackLivesMatter Organization founded by Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi, and Alicia Garza.

A movement started and afterwards one group of the many BLM groups conveniently called themselves BLM. That doesn't make them BLM. Next we'll hear that that there's an organization called Anonymous.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 03:29:01 PM
A movement started and afterwards one group of the many BLM groups conveniently called themselves BLM. That doesn't make them BLM. Next we'll hear that that there's an organization called Anonymous.
You need to give it a break before you can't see out of the hole.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 02, 2016, 03:33:26 PM
You need to give it a break before you can't see out of the hole.

You are limiting BLM to an org when they're much bigger than that.
If I said: Kaep will donate to 1 million to flag lovers.
That means he will donate to the official Flag Lovers® organization?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 02, 2016, 03:38:47 PM
You are limiting BLM to an org when they're much bigger than that.
No that is not what I am doing and I understand why you are trying to pivot. I am pointing out that you can donate to BLM organizations.
Hint: BLM is a movement, not an organization
This is the Official #BlackLivesMatter Organization founded by Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi, and Alicia Garza.
It is your hole and your shovel so dig it as deep as you want. One thing to remember is it is Friday so no matter what I will have the last word on this.  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 04:08:07 PM
He knew he would lose endorsements the second he decided to protest
Was there a real threat to his endorsement contracts?
  For the record I'm not a fan of using endorsements (money) as a means to censor anyone even a fool like him. Unless the company felt that by alienating fans his endorsement was worth less in which case its no intended to censor but its a financial decision.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: grodnoking on September 02, 2016, 04:50:05 PM
One thing to remember is it is Friday so no matter what I will have the last word on this.  :)


Fridays are all your fault I just realized. You are fully willing to fight an argument because you always get the last say in the matter on friday.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: elit on September 02, 2016, 05:57:04 PM
He knew he would lose endorsements the second he decided to protest
I don't give him that much credit
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sammy82 on September 02, 2016, 06:27:06 PM
Was there a real threat to his endorsement contracts?
  For the record I'm not a fan of using endorsements (money) as a means to censor anyone even a fool like him. Unless the company felt that by alienating fans his endorsement was worth less in which case its no intended to censor but its a financial decision.
Why not? He has a right to do/say whatever he wants but the company and its owner/board doesn't?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sport on September 02, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
Why not? He has a right to do/say whatever he wants but the company and its owner/board doesn't?
They do have the right to do what they please. I still am not a fan. Its bullying someone who has a diffrent opinion as opposed to engaging in discourse.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 03, 2016, 09:57:32 PM
You are limiting BLM to an org when they're much bigger than that.
If I said: Kaep will donate to 1 million to flag lovers.
That means he will donate to the official Flag Lovers® organization?
Exactly. So now why did you bring up that BLM is a movement and not an organization?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 03, 2016, 11:48:41 PM
Exactly. So now why did you bring up that BLM is a movement and not an organization?

Because you clearly can't comprehend the difference.
Is BLM bad or good?
Doesn't it depend where exactly the money is going to?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 03, 2016, 11:56:18 PM
Because you clearly can't comprehend the difference.
Is BLM bad or good?
Doesn't it depend where exactly the money is going to?
And what is it that makes you think that it will go to any half normal group? This is a guy who said he can't respect this country and who wore pig cop socks. Why does his donating money to exactly the same cause he is promoting which is overrun by crazies change anything at all?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 04, 2016, 12:00:23 AM
And what is it that makes you think that it will go to any half normal group? This is a guy who said he can't respect this country and who wore pig cop socks. Why does his donating money to exactly the same cause he is promoting which is overrun by crazies change anything at all?

Just curious did you criticize MJ too?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 04, 2016, 12:18:41 AM
Just curious did you criticize MJ too?
for what?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 04, 2016, 07:34:37 AM
Just curious did you criticize MJ too?
Just curious why would you compare MJ to this hater?

"As a proud American, a father who lost his own dad in a senseless act of violence, and a black man, I have been deeply troubled by the deaths of African-Americans at the hands of law enforcement and angered by the cowardly and hateful targeting and killing of police officers. I grieve with the families who have lost loved ones, as I know their pain all too well.

“I was raised by parents who taught me to love and respect people regardless of their race or background, so I am saddened and frustrated by the divisive rhetoric and racial tensions that seem to be getting worse as of late. I know this country is better than that, and I can no longer stay silent. We need to find solutions that ensure people of color receive fair and equal treatment AND that police officers – who put their lives on the line every day to protect us all – are respected and supported.

“Over the past three decades I have seen up close the dedication of the law enforcement officers who protect me and my family. I have the greatest respect for their sacrifice and service. I also recognize that for many people of color their experiences with law enforcement have been different than mine. I have decided to speak out in the hope that we can come together as Americans, and through peaceful dialogue and education, achieve constructive change.

“To support that effort, I am making contributions of $1 million each to two organizations, the International Association of Chiefs of Police’s newly established Institute for Community-Police Relations and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. The Institute for Community-Police Relations’ policy and oversight work is focused on building trust and promoting best practices in community policing. My donation to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, the nation’s oldest civil rights law organization, will support its ongoing work in support of reforms that will build trust and respect between communities and law enforcement. Although I know these contributions alone are not enough to solve the problem, I hope the resources will help both organizations make a positive difference.

“We are privileged to live in the world’s greatest country – a country that has provided my family and me the greatest of opportunities. The problems we face didn’t happen overnight and they won’t be solved tomorrow, but if we all work together, we can foster greater understanding, positive change and create a more peaceful world for ourselves, our children, our families and our communities.”
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 05, 2016, 08:30:35 AM
Now the flag stands for gay rights. Using this logic no one should ever stand during the anthem again. I am sure we can all find something we disagree with in this country. What a bunch of nut jobs.

http://my.xfinity.com/articles/sports-general/20160905/SOC-Rapinoe-Anthem-Kneel/
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: jj1000 on September 05, 2016, 09:24:13 AM
Now the flag stands for gay rights. Using this logic no one should ever stand during the anthem again. I am sure we can all find something we disagree with in this country. What a bunch of nut jobs.

http://my.xfinity.com/articles/sports-general/20160905/SOC-Rapinoe-Anthem-Kneel/
Can't wait to see Jimmy McMillan take a knee ;)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 05, 2016, 12:25:22 PM
Just curious why would you compare MJ to this hater?

My bad, I thought MJ donated to a BLM type of org.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 05, 2016, 12:28:01 PM
BTW, since you wrote that you do not understand the significance of kneeling in football, with my limited understanding I think it is supposed to be similar to how at the end of a game a QB will "take a knee" to automatically down himself and run out the clock. In this context it would be a sign of surrender.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 05, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
My bad, I thought MJ donated to a BLM type of org.
NP, MJ always seems to stay neutral on these situations.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 05, 2016, 02:05:39 PM
BTW, since you wrote that you do not understand the significance of kneeling in football, with my limited understanding I think it is supposed to be similar to how at the end of a game a QB will "take a knee" to automatically down himself and run out the clock. In this context it would be a sign of surrender.
Your limited understanding is 100% wrong.  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 05, 2016, 03:13:41 PM
Your limited understanding is 100% wrong.  :)
okay so please explain better
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 05, 2016, 05:17:14 PM
BTW, since you wrote that you do not understand the significance of kneeling in football, with my limited understanding I think it is supposed to be similar to how at the end of a game a QB will "take a knee" to automatically down himself and run out the clock. In this context it would be a sign of surrender.

How'd you get to that conclusion?
In football, you kneel when you are WINNING.

It had nothing to do with football.
Kneeling is a symbol of respect, like kneeling in front of royalty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling#As_expression_of_reverence_and_submission
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sammy82 on September 05, 2016, 05:31:57 PM
How'd you get to that conclusion?
In football, you kneel when you are WINNING.

It had nothing to do with football.
Kneeling is a symbol of respect, like kneeling in front of royalty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling#As_expression_of_reverence_and_submission
BS. He has no respect. If he did, he would do what is the norm and  excepted in this country, in the 21st century (namely stand and/or put his hand on his heart). Maybe in other countries or 200 years ago people kneel to show respect. But not here and not in 2016.
Its one thing for u to say u understand him, he has a right to protest, USA has an issue, etc but don't start saying he was showing respect.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ShlockDoc on September 05, 2016, 05:37:05 PM
but don't start saying he was showing respect.

I think it's fair to say it was a compromise.  He's demonstrating but still showing deference.  He started the protest by sitting and switched to this.  I think he took the feedback to heart and switched to kneeling. 
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Sammy82 on September 05, 2016, 05:39:51 PM
I think it's fair to say it was a compromise.  He's demonstrating but still showing deference.  He started the protest by sitting and switched to this.  I think he took the feedback to heart and switched to kneeling.
Possibly
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 05, 2016, 05:41:51 PM
How'd you get to that conclusion?
In football, you kneel when you are WINNING.

It had nothing to do with football.
Kneeling is a symbol of respect, like kneeling in front of royalty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling#As_expression_of_reverence_and_submission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling#As_expression_of_reverence_and_submission)
so how would that be a protest at all? whatever.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 05, 2016, 05:57:03 PM
so how would that be a protest at all? whatever.

Very simple.
Because he's not standing for the flag.

BS. He has no respect. If he did, he would do what is the norm and  excepted in this country, in the 21st century (namely stand and/or put his hand on his heart). Maybe in other countries or 200 years ago people kneel to show respect. But not here and not in 2016.
Its one thing for u to say u understand him, he has a right to protest, USA has an issue, etc but don't start saying he was showing respect.

You're getting lost in the details.
Just because someone is disrespectful, does not mean they won't ever do anything respectful or at least something that is symbolically respectful.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: aygart on September 05, 2016, 06:01:00 PM
Very simple.
Because he's not standing for the flag.

You're getting lost in the details.
Just because someone is disrespectful, does not mean they won't ever do anything respectful or at least something that is symbolically respectful.
fair enough.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 05, 2016, 09:13:20 PM
He realized the backlash he was getting for disrespecting the flag/military. His pig socks that then came out didn't help his cause.

Taking a knee in sports represents respect for the other players/team. Like running out the clock as not to run up the score or when a player gets injured at younger levels.

Why he did it, who knows.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 05, 2016, 11:18:22 PM
The kneeling thing is stupid.
It's one thing to sit. Nu nu. So he's lazy. Do I stand up for every borchu? It's just a lazy thing. But imagine some dude kneeling at borchu. Now you went and made an EFFORT to look like a weirdo.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 01:24:15 PM
Team USA hockey coach says he'll bench any player who sits for national anthem.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/09/07/team-usa-hockey-coach-says-hell-bench-any-player-who-sits-for-national-anthem.html

That's what I am talking about.  :)
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: puppydogs on September 07, 2016, 04:16:45 PM
Team USA hockey coach says he'll bench any player who sits for national anthem.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/09/07/team-usa-hockey-coach-says-hell-bench-any-player-who-sits-for-national-anthem.html

That's what I am talking about.  :)

Tort is the man.  Loved him when he coached the Rangers
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on September 07, 2016, 04:21:27 PM
Team USA hockey coach says he'll bench any player who sits for national anthem.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/09/07/team-usa-hockey-coach-says-hell-bench-any-player-who-sits-for-national-anthem.html

That's what I am talking about.  :)

That's well within Tort's rights as a coach.
Also worth noting that you better not be playing for Team USA if you're gonna sit for the anthem.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 07, 2016, 08:03:31 PM
I guess this is different as you are playing for your country.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 08, 2016, 03:38:32 PM
I guess he won't be going home any more.  :)
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/kaepernicks-parents-fly-us-flag-outside-house/ar-AAiDOU2?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Freddie on September 08, 2016, 03:56:09 PM
I didn't read the article but my guess is that those poor folks were under so much pressure.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: JTZ on September 08, 2016, 05:25:30 PM
I didn't read the article but my guess is that those poor folks were under so much pressure.
Do we need a sarcasm font?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: coralsnake on September 13, 2016, 11:51:02 AM
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: A3 on November 09, 2016, 10:21:17 PM
Epic rant?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: good sam on November 09, 2016, 10:27:05 PM
Epic rant?
Not sure I agree, but yes, epic rant.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: elit on February 20, 2018, 03:42:38 PM
https://youtu.be/M_wLPcH1_WA
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: Dan on April 12, 2018, 09:28:17 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23135580/seattle-seahawks-postpone-visit-colin-kaepernick-say-stop-kneeling-anthem
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on April 12, 2018, 09:31:26 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23135580/seattle-seahawks-postpone-visit-colin-kaepernick-say-stop-kneeling-anthem
I got to give him one thing. He isn't giving in. Now he boxed himself in a corner.
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: mercaz1 on April 13, 2018, 09:10:53 AM
I wonder how much of  his not giving an answer is because of his lawsuit against the NFL?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on April 13, 2018, 09:30:55 AM
I wonder how much of  his not giving an answer is because of his lawsuit against the NFL?
Maybe this strengthens his case of being blacklisted?
Title: Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
Post by: yuneeq on April 13, 2018, 12:30:40 PM
Why are we still talking about Kaepernick.
The second his gf dissed the Ravens owner he was done.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20597810/ray-lewis-said-baltimore-ravens-sign-colin-kaepernick-girlfriend-racist-tweet