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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Deal Guy on November 27, 2016, 03:26:19 AM

Title: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 27, 2016, 03:26:19 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/26/for-some-in-middle-class-trump-plan-would-mean-tax-increase.html

http://tpc-election-calculator.urban.org/

In a effort to simplify the tax code, Trump/Republicans want to drop all the $4,050 exemptions that you get for every member in your household and instead replace that with raising the standard deduction from $12,700 to $30,000, without having any personal exemptions . For a family of 4 (2 kids), that is fine since they will get $30,000 tax free instead of $28,900 (4x $4050 + 12,700). But for a family with let's say 5 kids it is a disaster. Instead of being able to earn $41,050 tax free ($4,050 x 7 + $12,700), you will now only get a standard deduction of $30,000. They are in effect treating a family with 5 or 6 kids, the same as a family with 1 or 2 kids.

Is there any effective way to contact the Republican congressman and senators and tell them that its ok to want to simplify the tax code and to want to remove all the personal exemptions, but they can't to that on the backs of large families. It makes no sense to make one standard deduction of $30,000 for both small and large families, and no longer have exemptions for each family member.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mordyk on November 27, 2016, 09:57:55 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/26/for-some-in-middle-class-trump-plan-would-mean-tax-increase.html

http://tpc-election-calculator.urban.org/

In a effort to simplify the tax code, Trump/Republicans want to drop all the $4,050 exemptions that you get for every member in your household and instead replace that with raising the standard deduction from $12,700 to $30,000, without having any personal exemptions . For a family of 4 (2 kids), that is fine since they will get $30,000 tax free instead of $28,900 (4x $4050 + 12,700). But for a family with let's say 5 kids it is a disaster. Instead of being able to earn $41,050 tax free ($4,050 x 7 + $12,700), you will now only get a standard deduction of $30,000. They are in effect treating a family with 5 or 6 kids, the same as a family with 1 or 2 kids.

Is there any effective way to contact the Republican congressman and senators and tell them that its ok to want to simplify the tax code and to want to remove all the personal exemptions, but they can't to that on the backs of large families. It makes no sense to make one standard deduction of $30,000 for both small and large families, and no longer have exemptions for each family member.
The issue is what might work for you might not work for others. I believe most of America doesnt have 7 kids. And thats part of the simplifying.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 27, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
That is taking the attitude of who asked you to have so many. I'm looking if there is a way to have our voices  heard. I know full well that must of America doesn't  have 7 kids, but logic says that a larger family deserves some help since they have more expenses then a family with no kids.

This whole idea of simplifying the tax code may have made sense 20 years ago, but today the IRS encourages everyone to efile, and the computer software doesn't need help figuring out standard deductions and exemptions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mordyk on November 27, 2016, 11:08:30 AM
That is taking the attitude of who asked you to have so many. I'm looking if there is a way to have our voices  heard. I know full well that must of America doesn't  have 7 kids, but logic says that a larger family deserves some help since they have more expenses then a family with no kids.

This whole idea of simplifying the tax code may have made sense 20 years ago, but today the IRS encourages everyone to efile, and the computer software doesn't need help figuring out standard deductions and exemptions.
That is not what i meant.  All i said if you are trying to fight something,  the people you will discuss it with will not be able to relate
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: JTZ on November 27, 2016, 01:38:18 PM
You need to write to your elected officials. The problem is a family of 7 is in such a minority you probably won't get far but it can't hurt.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 02:06:12 PM
I've been shouting this from the rooftops in the poisen thread.
Trump is horrific for our community. Not to mention benefit cuts that are sure to come.

Didn't stop the yated from endorsing him, and the vast majority of the community voting for him like sheep.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: coralsnake on November 27, 2016, 02:11:28 PM
I've been shouting this from the rooftops in the poisen thread.
Trump is horrific for our community. Not to mention benefit cuts that are sure to come.

Didn't stop the yated from endorsing him, and the vast majority of the community voting for him like sheep.

All Jews are rich. What's the big deal? Cheap too?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: jj1000 on November 27, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I've been shouting this from the rooftops in the poisen thread.
Trump is horrific for our community. Not to mention benefit cuts that are sure to come.

Didn't stop the yated from endorsing him, and the vast majority of the community voting for him like sheep.

Maybe because many believe in conservative and capitalistic ideals even if it means paying more?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 02:13:48 PM
I think DJT can relate to having quite a few kids.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Moshe123 on November 27, 2016, 02:14:06 PM
I've been shouting this from the rooftops in the poisen thread.
Trump is horrific for our community. Not to mention benefit cuts that are sure to come.

Didn't stop the yated from endorsing him, and the vast majority of the community voting for him like sheep.


Money isn't the first thing on everyone's mind.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 02:24:33 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/26/for-some-in-middle-class-trump-plan-would-mean-tax-increase.html

Out of that article comes the quote:
"Kelly Rodriguez, 47, who lives in Tampa, Florida, voted for Trump and is a single mother who claims two of her four children as dependents.
(Her ex-husband claims the other two.)"


Our current tax code discriminates against married people! This says ex-husband, but it could just as well be two people who are just not legally married, and they can split the children and both claim head-of-household status to maximize the tax benefit.

No matter what way you slice it, the income tax is the strongest tool the government has, it is totally discriminatory, and is used for a lot of social (and other manipulation). We would probably be better of with a consumption based tax, maybe along the lines of fairtax.org, or something else. But it should require a constitutional amendment to repeal the income tax.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: JTZ on November 27, 2016, 02:25:19 PM
I think DJT can relate to having quite a few kids.
...but can he relate to a 4k exemption?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 02:31:23 PM
...but can he relate to a 4k exemption?
As I said, the IRC is a major social engineering tool.

It seems like DJT is pro large families (as long as they stick to American values).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Iz on November 27, 2016, 03:06:39 PM
It seems like DJT is pro large families (as long as they stick to American values).
Does he have more than 1.5 per wife?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: JTZ on November 27, 2016, 03:07:43 PM
Does he have more than 1.5 per wife?
1 2/3 per.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Freddie on November 27, 2016, 03:09:28 PM
Does he have more than 1.5 per wife?

Three wives (keinainahora?) and how many kids? Donald Jr., Eric, and (lehavdil) Ivanka from Ivana. Tiffany from Marla Maples. Baron from Melania. Wow, I cannot believe I just did that from memory. It may not be right.

So 5/3=1.67 children per wife.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: joe1234 on November 27, 2016, 03:22:55 PM
Sounds like in the near future all Jews will be legally divorced living in the same home....
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: David Smith on November 27, 2016, 03:25:59 PM
I've been shouting this from the rooftops in the poisen thread.
Trump is horrific for our community. Not to mention benefit cuts that are sure to come.

Didn't stop the yated from endorsing him, and the vast majority of the community voting for him like sheep.
This is a fascinating phenomena to me in our community.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CZ60 on November 27, 2016, 03:26:49 PM
Less of a deduction but also the tax rate would be lower... so instead of having a marginal tax rate of 30% with more deductions, your marginal rate would be 20-25% with less deductions. It may be a wash in the end of the day but its not a disaster if you have 7 kids. There's more to taxes than seeing how much you can deduct  :P
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: David Smith on November 27, 2016, 03:27:30 PM
Money isn't the first thing on everyone's mind.
+1
White power FTW.


Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Ephcc90 on November 27, 2016, 03:55:04 PM
I would argue that it would be better for everyone, regardless of family size. For how many years do you think you will be able to claim all 7 dependents? The higher standard deduction can always be claimed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Sounds like in the near future all Jews will be legally divorced living in the same home....
I've suggested that before (I'll leave it to others to dig up). Though I might have been mistaken about New Hampshire, Guam seems to be the way to go.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 27, 2016, 04:31:16 PM
I would argue that it would be better for everyone, regardless of family size. For how many years do you think you will be able to claim all 7 dependents? The higher standard deduction can always be claimed.
In many homes people have college students (up to the age of 24),  until the parents are around 60.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 04:34:54 PM
Someone pointed out to me last year, that there is no tax benefit in claiming dependents beyond a certain number. (Some people even give away some children to their parents to parents to claim as dependents so at least someone can benefit). I personally stopped claiming 3 of my children (though no-one else is claiming them  ;)).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: David Smith on November 27, 2016, 04:36:36 PM
Start a thread in goods for sale.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: JTZ on November 27, 2016, 04:37:04 PM
Someone pointed out to me last year, that there is no tax benefit in claiming dependents beyond a certain number.
Not enough income?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 05:10:55 PM
I am surprised that AMT was not brought up here which removes the deduction for lots of the large families anyhow.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: grodnoking on November 27, 2016, 07:04:45 PM
Start a thread in goods for sale.
Pretty sure (there is a thread about) someone was giving away their children with a house for awhile
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:25:36 PM
Someone pointed out to me last year, that there is no tax benefit in claiming dependents beyond a certain number. (Some people even give away some children to their parents to parents to claim as dependents so at least someone can benefit). I personally stopped claiming 3 of my children (though no-one else is claiming them  ;)).
There's a limit to the number of exemptions?
 News to me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 07:34:22 PM
There's a limit to the number of exemptions?
 News to me.
Maybe he means AMT?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:35:17 PM
Maybe he means AMT?
Maybe he's pha$ed out..
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 07:37:00 PM
Maybe he's pha$ed out..
Not familiar enough to understand
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:37:59 PM
Not familiar enough to understand
There is a phase out for personal exemptions. Around 300k plus agi for mfj iirc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 07:38:39 PM
There is a phase out for personal exemptions. Around 300k plus agi for mfj iirc
This is besides AMT?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:38:57 PM
This is besides AMT?
Yes
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:40:36 PM
Quote
For married taxpayers filing jointly, personal exemptions begin to be phased out at $311,300 and are fully phased out by $433,800.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: JTZ on November 27, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
There is a phase out for personal exemptions. Around 300k plus agi for mfj iirc
$311,300 to $433,800
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 07:42:38 PM
Yes
Then AMT comes earlier. I don't make  that but have gotten hit with AMT
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 27, 2016, 07:50:08 PM
Then AMT comes earlier. I don't make  that but have gotten hit with AMT
+1
Also in lean years, there's a limit to how much child tax credit and/or EIC that one can get.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: danrocks613 on November 27, 2016, 07:50:18 PM
This is besides AMT?
Anyone in the amt is by definition taking itemized deductions rather than the standard deduction and so this entire discussion doesn't start.
The discussion brought up by op is regarding one who is taking the standard deduction and would be better off with the lower standard plus exemptions rather than trumps higher standard and no exemptions
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:52:44 PM
Then AMT comes earlier. I don't make  that but have gotten hit with AMT
Precisely because of your many exemptions and deductions..

Amt is designed to eliminate too many exemptions and deductions ... for people who would otherwise be paying taxes

Its not pretty
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 07:52:44 PM
Then AMT comes earlier. I don't make  that but have gotten hit with AMT
Precisely because of your many exemptions and deductions..

Amt is designed to eliminate too many exemptions and deductions ... for people who would otherwise be paying taxes

Its not pretty
Title: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: danrocks613 on November 27, 2016, 08:11:53 PM
Another pretty negative impact of trumps plan is that for MFJ (married Filing jointly) with income between 255k & 487,650 LOng term capital gain rate will increase from 15% to 20%.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
Precisely because of your many exemptions and deductions..

Amt is designed to eliminate too many exemptions and deductions ... for people who would otherwise be paying taxes

Its not pretty
In that case this will not affect large families as much anyhow.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Another pretty negative impact of trumps plan is that for MFJ with income between 255k & 487,650 LOng term capital gain rate will increase from 15% to 20%.
MFJ?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: danrocks613 on November 27, 2016, 08:16:08 PM
Married filing jointly
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 09:39:07 PM
In that case this will not affect large families as much anyhow.
Valid point, but (without actually running the numbers,) my guess is that it will have a negative effect of those earning less than or around 100k
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 09:54:54 PM
Valid point, but (without actually running the numbers,) my guess is that it will have a negative effect of those earning less than or around 100k

That is likely, but it is also lkely that there will be changes in the other direction as well. Certainly by the time it is done, as he said during the campaign this is a first offer of negotiation. Also, the elimination of AMT, estate tax, and of the marriage penalty would be a windfall to the community.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Jellybelly on November 27, 2016, 11:21:53 PM
Not sure this belongs here but....
 it's probably impossible for anyone to know  for sure, but if my boss owes me a decent  amount of money, would it be better for me, tax wise, to take it in 2016 or to wait till 2017 and hope trump lowers the taxes? Also same question regarding tzedaka, think it would be better for me to give extra and claim it in 2016 or wait till 2017?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 27, 2016, 11:33:24 PM
Not sure this belongs here but....
 it's probably impossible for anyone to know  for sure, but if my boss owes me a decent  amount of money, would it be better for me, tax wise, to take it in 2016 or to wait till 2017 and hope trump lowers the taxes? Also same question regarding tzedaka, think it would be better for me to give extra and claim it in 2016 or wait till 2017?
It is definitely a strong possibility that tax rates will change in 17. (It may or may not be to your benefit. Depending on your situation..).

Better question is, do you trust the boss? Lot more considerations than tax imho.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Jellybelly on November 27, 2016, 11:47:26 PM
Could be for some people, but I'm not too worried about that
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Freddie on November 27, 2016, 11:50:43 PM
Could be for some people, but I'm not too worried about that
Your shver?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 27, 2016, 11:51:29 PM
Better question is, do you trust the boss? Lot more considerations than tax imho.
We could be dealing with a difference of whether the check says 12/31 or 1/1
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Jellybelly on November 27, 2016, 11:53:47 PM
Right, basically I get bonus money in addition to my salary and I can take it whenever I want
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Jellybelly on November 27, 2016, 11:55:53 PM
I'm guessing that it's impossible to know what's gonna happen with trump. He says he's lowering taxes but he's been pretty unpredictable so far...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Freddie on November 27, 2016, 11:58:48 PM
I'm guessing that it's impossible to know what's gonna happen with trump. He says he's lowering taxes but he's been pretty unpredictable so far...

No, no, he's building a wall and banning Muslims and deporting Mitt Romney. You'll see.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Jellybelly on November 28, 2016, 12:03:25 AM
I guess I'm selfish but I care more about my money than mitt, Mexicans and muslims
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Iz on November 28, 2016, 12:14:48 AM
No, no, he's building a wall and banning Muslims and deporting Mitt Romney. You'll see.
So that's why he wants him as SecState, so he can send him overseas!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CZ60 on November 28, 2016, 01:43:26 PM
Not sure this belongs here but....
 it's probably impossible for anyone to know  for sure, but if my boss owes me a decent  amount of money, would it be better for me, tax wise, to take it in 2016 or to wait till 2017 and hope trump lowers the taxes? Also same question regarding tzedaka, think it would be better for me to give extra and claim it in 2016 or wait till 2017?
So many factors at play, you should ask an accountant/financial adviser. But based on what he *said* he's going to do, you can take the deductions whenever (slight edge towards this year) and the income next year. But there is a lot more to this than the synopsis you gave. Speak to an accountant.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 02:05:05 PM
That is likely, but it is also lkely that there will be changes in the other direction as well. Certainly by the time it is done, as he said during the campaign this is a first offer of negotiation. Also, the elimination of AMT, estate tax, and of the marriage penalty would be a windfall to the community.
While the headline might read elimination of marriage penalty https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/trump-tax-reform.pdf has mention of single, married, and head-of-household thresholds. The sum of single+HOH is still higher than married (even more so if dependents are split and you end up with 2 Heads of Household.)

I am not making any judgment call based on the current headlines. A lot has not been thought through, and even more would be very difficult (or close to impossible) to pass. After all, the IRC is the greatest source of power (and social engineering), and government types aren't the types to relinquish any without a fight.

I am advocating a wait and see approach, proceeding with things that seem safe (even if they might not be as beneficial under a new tax regime), while holding off on moves that seem likely to be more beneficial down the road.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 02:17:29 PM
CW is to always lean towards deferring taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 03:38:49 PM
CW is to always lean towards deferring taxes.
For years I would say that deferring taxes is akin to פישן אין די הויזן, at first you are relieved and warm, but at the end you stay wet and smelly.

So many decisions get distorted because of the fear of current taxation, when sooner or later, the bill will have to get paid.

However, when there's real sense that the overall tax burden might be changing in the near future, I think it might be prudent to defer for a short while, until we get some clarity on the changes coming, since the likelihood is that the tax burden will be lower.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 03:51:40 PM
For years I would say that deferring taxes is akin to פישן אין די הויזן, at first you are relieved and warm, but at the end you stay wet and smelly.

So many decisions get distorted because of the fear of current taxation, when sooner or later, the bill will have to get paid.
The power of deferral is real. You are getting a free loan from the Govt. (not really because it is from your money....) In a retirement fund it can make a very big difference.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 03:59:23 PM
The power of deferral is real. You are getting a free loan from the Govt. (not really because it is from your money....) In a retirement fund it can make a very big difference.
So is it your opinion that a traditional IRA makes more sense than a Roth IRA because of the "free loan" assuming all else is equal? (I think this past election cycle just proved to everyone the fallacy of making such assumptions, but let's leave that aside for the moment)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CZ60 on November 28, 2016, 04:39:00 PM
So is it your opinion that a traditional IRA makes more sense than a Roth IRA because of the "free loan" assuming all else is equal? (I think this past election cycle just proved to everyone the fallacy of making such assumptions, but let's leave that aside for the moment)

I dont think he is necessarily saying that... They each have their own perks that, like all other financial decisions, must take into account the entire financial situation of a person. Hes not saying tax deferred is better than tax free, hes saying defer taxes that you may owe the following year. IRA's - separate ballgame.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 05:15:35 PM
So is it your opinion that a traditional IRA makes more sense than a Roth IRA because of the "free loan" assuming all else is equal? (I think this past election cycle just proved to everyone the fallacy of making such assumptions, but let's leave that aside for the moment)
Once you include the investment of the amount deducted on your current year's taxes? A better point of comparison is a traditional vs Roth 401k because in a traditional IRA the money would get spent and not saved.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/401-k-or-roth-ira-calculator.aspx
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 06:16:29 PM

Once you include the investment of the amount deducted on your current year's taxes? A better point of comparison is a traditional vs Roth 401k because in a traditional IRA the money would get spent and not saved.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/401-k-or-roth-ira-calculator.aspx
Change the inputs in that calculator to have the same tax rate at pre and post retirement (if you're successful you might actually end up with a higher rate at retirement).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 06:40:15 PM
Change the inputs in that calculator to have the same tax rate at pre and post retirement (if you're successful you might actually end up with a higher rate at retirement).
Not with proper planning.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 07:07:06 PM
Not with proper planning.
If one has a very substantial 401k, just RMDs and Social Security can put one in a high bracket, also there's a chance of becoming single.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
If one has a very substantial 401k, just RMDs and Social Security can put one in a high bracket, also there's a chance of becoming single.
That is of course part of the planning
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on November 28, 2016, 07:16:19 PM
No, no, he's building a wall and banning Muslims and deporting Mitt Romney. You'll see.

Your shver?
You'd have more likes if I wasn't always on tapa. Too bad.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Super Speed on November 28, 2016, 07:26:43 PM
No, no, he's building a wall and banning Muslims and deporting Mitt Romney. You'll see.
How much crow will you eat if he keeps most of his promises most of the way?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2016, 07:48:00 PM
That is of course part of the planning
On the one hand you seem to say a traditional 401k is better. Max that out, and you will end up with a substantial balance at 70.5, resulting in higher RMDs. If 401k contributions were maxed, Social Security contributions are likely to have been maxed too, resulting in a high SS benefit.

So are you advocating for maximizing traditional 401k, or for planning to minimize RMDs? (Not to mention that successful business people might be in a top tax bracket even without RMDs.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 28, 2016, 08:11:31 PM
All of those are part of planning and you change your plans as things become clearer in any direction. One important point is that a traditional can be converted to an Roth and not the other way around. Will it always be best to defer? No, but the power of deferral is real enough that after paying taxes at the full income rate it can still make up for almost all of the taxes paid on something totally tax free even if someone is in a higher bracket. In his case neither one has the tax advantage that a Roth has.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mmgfarb on November 28, 2016, 10:37:06 PM
I'd be interested to see the average difference between what people on DDF report as their income on CC apps and what they actually file taxes for.  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on April 25, 2017, 11:03:45 AM
I am curious to see if the new tax plan that will be floated out tomorrow will be bad for big families or not?
The one thing that keeps on annoying me is that they want to make taxes so simple that you should be able to do it on the back of a postcard. That silly line makes no sense, because the IRS does not want anyone doing taxes by pen and paper anymore. So why the need to get rid of all the exemptions if the computer calculates everything anyways?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 11:14:09 AM
I am curious to see if the new tax plan that will be floated out tomorrow will be bad for big families or not?
The one thing that keeps on annoying me is that they want to make taxes so simple that you should be able to do it on the back of a postcard. That silly line makes no sense, because the IRS does not want anyone doing taxes by pen and paper anymore. So why the need to get rid of all the exemptions if the computer calculates everything anyways?
To eliminate the need to calculate what goes on each of those lines.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 05:19:18 PM
To eliminate the need to calculate what goes on each of those lines.
But that could be devastating to the economy, as it would put so many people, currently working full time on all of those lines, out of work.  :P
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 05:21:47 PM
But that could be devastating to the economy, as it would put so many people, currently working full time on all of those lines, out of work.  :P
They can all work on transitioning people's tax plans.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 05:28:26 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tax-cut-elizabeth-warren-should-love-1493152062
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on April 26, 2017, 02:11:24 AM
To eliminate the need to calculate what goes on each of those lines.
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on April 26, 2017, 07:19:03 AM
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.

The more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on April 26, 2017, 07:24:26 AM
Why should a family of 7 pay much less taxes than a family of 4? (There are arguments both ways ) You're treating this like a negative byproduct of simplification. I say it's by design. This isn't hard to implement in the most simple tax  system. 
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on April 26, 2017, 07:59:17 AM
The computer does a fine job right now.
You still need to enter all family members' name's, birthdays, and socials, as well as income. After that, the software does a fine job calculating all deductions and exemptions. There is no point to get rid of exemptions for each family member, and to treat small and large families alike with the exact standard deduction, just to simply say that it works on a postcard, when we don't even use postcards anymore.
That is if your complexity is limited to family size.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on April 26, 2017, 01:20:07 PM
The more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes.
That is if your complexity is limited to family size.
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids. I can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on April 26, 2017, 01:38:28 PM
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids. I can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.
You totally missed my point. The complexity of the tax code has nothing at all to do with family size, exemptions, and standard deductions. Those can easily be included on a postcard sized return. The complexity is when you start dealing with business and partnerships as well as various investment vehicle and the like. There are plenty of people who need a box to mail a tax return.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on April 26, 2017, 01:51:35 PM
I agree that the more complex the code is, the more opportunity there is for loopholes. If they want to fix loopholes, then go ahead.
But, it is much harder and costly to support 1 child then to support 5 children. Therefore the larger family should be given a little more opportunity not to have to pay tax.
I can't justify raising the standard deduction for all married couples to 24,000, and then any penny you make above that to be taxed at 12%, since there would no longer be exemptions of $4,050 for each member of the family.

Currently a married couple with 1 child can make $24,750 tax free, while a married couple with 5 kids can make  $40,950 tax free.

So to simplify things and use the 10% bracket, that is a savings of around $1500 of tax on the $15000 of taxable income.

I think anyone will agree  that it costs more than $1500 a year to raise 5 children vs only 1 child no mstter what religion or race they may be from. So a parent with 5 children deserves to have more exemptions then a couple with 1 or 2 kids.i can't understand how it would be fair to eliminate exemptions.

I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes. That may not be a goal of the new tax code, whenever that happens.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on April 26, 2017, 08:25:44 PM
I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes. That may not be a goal of the new tax code, whenever that happens.
Well, having more children is beneficial for society and for the economy, so there's the reasoning behind it. Besides just being fair.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on April 27, 2017, 12:37:32 PM
I understand larger families have more expenses, but not everyone agrees that should mean they should pay less in taxes.
If Tax is intended to account for means, than a larger family is relatively poorer than a single/couple with the same income
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on April 27, 2017, 12:42:24 PM
Well, having more children is beneficial for society and for the economy, so there's the reasoning behind it. Besides just being fair.
Absolutely. They should charge social security based on how many kids you have. The more workers you leave over to pay for your retirement the less you should pay.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ckmk47 on April 27, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
Absolutely. They should charge social security based on how many kids you have. The more workers you leave over to pay for your retirement the less you should pay.
+1  ;D
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on April 27, 2017, 08:29:57 PM
If Tax is intended to account for means, than a larger family is relatively poorer than a single/couple with the same income

I don't think this is completely true.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on April 27, 2017, 09:10:27 PM
I don't think this is completely true.
they are not necessarily exponentially poorer proportionate to the number of children (unless paying yeshivah tuition :P ) but they are somewhat poorer accounting just for food and clothing
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 04:39:56 PM
I was reading today that they plan to get rid of the $4050 exemption per person in the family, as i predicted.
But being that there will be alot of back and forth in congress regarding the tax bill, NOW IS THE TIME TO REACH OUT TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 27, 2017, 04:48:10 PM
No exemption at all?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 04:52:26 PM
No exemption at all?
According to CNN, it's gone.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/27/news/economy/tax-reform-framework/index.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 27, 2017, 04:59:53 PM
According to CNN, it's gone.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/27/news/economy/tax-reform-framework/index.html
They are doubling the standard deduction. So basically getting rid of child exemptions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 05:02:00 PM
I was reading today that they plan to get rid of the $4050 exemption per person in the family, as i predicted.
But being that there will be alot of back and forth in congress regarding the tax bill, NOW IS THE TIME TO REACH OUT TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR.

In concert with doubling the standard deduction, it evens out for average families. Obviously this plan is devastating to people with itemized deductions- losing the exemption, losing state tax deduction, plus whatever else may happen with the undefined changes to the bracket ranges. Who does it help? The very highest income earners (drop in tax rate), and the AMT earners (were not getting these deductions anyway, so the lower rates help), and the people of average incomes living in states with low taxes who probably don't itemize (i.e. Red States).

That's the beauty of it - the design is almost surgical in carving out crony groups and supporters for benefits. FTR, I detest the strategy. How taxation would be most fairly distributed is debatable, but political alignment and cronyism is definitely not one of the fair metrics.

they are not necessarily exponentially poorer proportionate to the number of children (unless paying yeshivah tuition :P ) but they are somewhat poorer accounting just for food and clothing

I think the calculated cost per year is estimated between $12,000 and $14,000 per child per year (for an average American family) based on dividing the "cost to raise a child" by 17 years. Which is significant for the average American family.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on September 27, 2017, 05:15:16 PM
In concert with doubling the standard deduction, it evens out for average families. Obviously this plan is devastating to people with itemized deductions- losing the exemption, losing state tax deduction, plus whatever else may happen with the undefined changes to the bracket ranges. Who does it help? The very highest income earners (drop in tax rate), and the AMT earners (were not getting these deductions anyway, so the lower rates help), and the people of average incomes living in states with low taxes who probably don't itemize (i.e. Red States).

That's the beauty of it - the design is almost surgical in carving out crony groups and supporters for benefits. FTR, I detest the strategy. How taxation would be most fairly distributed is debatable, but political alignment and cronyism is definitely not one of the fair metrics.

I think the calculated cost per year is estimated between $12,000 and $14,000 per child per year (for an average American family) based on dividing the "cost to raise a child" by 17 years. Which is significant for the average American family.
AMT can often be a result of larger families.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 05:31:34 PM
AMT can often be a result of larger families.

Yeah, but larger families are not that common. I don't believe they are a targeted group. It will be difficult to analyze whether they will be helped or hurt by this until the bracket ranges are spelled out. Most likely outcome is hurt.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on September 27, 2017, 05:39:37 PM
Yeah, but larger families are not that common. I don't believe they are a targeted group. It will be difficult to analyze whether they will be helped or hurt by this until the bracket ranges are spelled out. Most likely outcome is hurt.
I don't think anyone believes that they are being specifically targetted. It will also impact lower income families more because of that.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 05:56:19 PM
I don't think anyone believes that they are being specifically targetted. It will also impact lower income families more because of that.

You don't think this is intentionally designed to increase the tax burden on the urban populations of states like NY, NJ, and CA?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 06:03:50 PM
In concert with doubling the standard deduction, it evens out for average families.
I think that is far from accurate.
Currently, the standard deduction for a married couple is $12,600 plus $4050 for each person in the house. So with just one child, your deduction plus exemptions is $24,750. That would be similar to the $24000 they want to enact. But for families more than 1 child it would be devastating. For example, with 5 kids you currently can make $40,950 tax free ($4050 x 7 + $12,600) vs the $24,000 they want to enact.
That means you need to pay 12% tax on that $21,000 difference. That is $2520 of tax!
For more examples, see the first post on this topic.
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=68913.msg1604566#msg1604566
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 27, 2017, 06:04:18 PM
You don't think this is intentionally designed to increase the tax burden on the urban populations of states like NY, NJ, and CA?
I know the spin will be to target minorities. They might be right.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 06:28:26 PM
I think that is far from accurate.

I was imprecise... the general analysis is tbat together with the tax brackets and rates it will be calibrated to make this a wash for the median family. At the individual level, of course it wont be hard to show that there is a difference between families with 1, 2, or 3 kids.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 06:37:45 PM
At the individual level, of course it wont be hard to show that there is a difference between families with 1, 2, or 3 kids.
That is why i think it is important that people speak up and explain to congressmen why this needs to be addressed.
It's unfair to treat a family with 1 child the same as a family with 5 children. Bigger families have more expenses.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 06:39:48 PM
That is why i think it is important that people speak up and explain to congressmen why this needs to be addressed.
It's unfair to treat a family with 1 child the same as a family with 5 children. Bigger families have more expenses.

What if there is an enhancement to the child tax credit too that hasnt been shown publicly yet? Lets say it evened things out for families with 1-3 children in the household. Now it just becomes unfair for families with 4+. How much traction will you get?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 06:42:55 PM
Another thing to point out, is that they are talking of raising the child tax credit somewhat, which is a good thing.
The thing is, that it doesn't offset taking away exemptions.

The reason for that is because, you don't get a penny of Child tax credit once your child turns 17, while exemtions work as long as the person is living in your house and you can claim them which can be much higher than 17.
So while they might want to show that the additional child tax credit offsets the loss of exemptions, that is totally not true for your 18 year old or 23 year old student that you need to feed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 06:48:14 PM
Another thing to point out, is that they are talking of raising the child tax credit somewhat, which is a good thing.
The thing is, that it doesn't offset taking away exemptions.

The reason for that is because, you don't get a penny of Child tax credit once your child turns 17, while exemtions work as long as the person is living in your house and you can claim them which can be much higher than 17.
So while they might want to show that the additional child tax credit offsets the loss of exemptions, that is totally not true for your 18 year old or 23 year old student that you need to feed.

What youre saying is true, but again, it doesnt really resonate at the broadest levels. But I think if you add in the sandwich generation, qnd the loss of an exemption for older family memebers permanently residing in your home its a stronger argument.

Which can be put to rest by introducing an elder care tax credit
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 27, 2017, 06:53:55 PM
I probably am sharing too much by saying this, but just to strengthen my point- by having no further benecit to including adult aged children on your tax form, it will encourage desirable behaviors. Once mom and dad get nothing by naming junior as a dependent the youngster will start to file their own forms. Thats not in order to generate revenue but desirable for purely social reasons.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 07:34:08 PM
I probably am sharing too much by saying this, but just to strengthen my point- by having no further benecit to including adult aged children on your tax form, it will encourage desirable behaviors. Once mom and dad get nothing by naming junior as a dependent the youngster will start to file their own forms. Thats not in order to generate revenue but desirable for purely social reasons.
If they work, yes.
But how many are in college or yeshiva, and not working?
The parents still support the 18-23 year old, and get no help.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 07:53:35 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2017/09/27/release-of-gops-long-awaited-tax-plan-reveals-exactly-why-tax-reform-is-so-hard/#380ba7604597

What Makes It Hard?  You may have noticed, however, that in the second example, I did not further reduce the taxpayer's income by the $4,050 personal exemption. This is because as part of the new framework, the GOP intends to do away with the deduction currently allowed to each taxpayer, his or her spouse, and each dependent child. Interestingly, by eliminating the personal exemptions, there will be a "tipping point" where large families would have been better of under current law, with a standard deduction of $12,700 (for married couples) and personal exemptions of $4,050 for each family member over the proposed standard deduction of $24,000 with NO personal exemptions.

To illustrate, assume a married couple with four children earning $40,000. Under current law, taxable income would be reduced by a $12,700 standard deduction and six personal exemptions for a total of $24,300, resulting in taxable income of $4,000, and a tax bill of $400.

Under the new framework, however, this same family would reduce income by only the new $24,000 standard deduction; no personal exemptions would be permitted. As a result, taxable income would be $16,000, and with the new bottom rate of 12%, this family would pay tax of $1,920, or $1,500 greater than under current law.

it appears, however, that the new framework is trying to ameliorate the impact of this tipping point by accommodating for the loss of personal exemptions by creating an enhanced child tax credit and even a $500 credit for non-child dependents, like an elderly parent. How much these credits help, however, won't be clear until more detail is provide as to just how they'll work. It is also very important to note that these changes to the tax credits don't appear to increase the amount of any credit that is refundable; as a result, if a low-income taxpayer has no tax liability, this won't increase the amount of their refund. Thus, the lowest-income of taxpayers will not be harmed by the changes, but won't benefit either.

SO PERHAPS WITH A $500 CREDIT FOR NON-CHILD DEPENDENTS, IT MAKES IT A BIT EASIER TO SWALLOW FOR LARGE FAMILIES?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 27, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
As for CHARITY, it may take a huge hit.
With the raise in the standard deduction, only people that have lots of mortgage interest over $24,000 will benefit from adding charity to their itemized deduction, or for people that give a lot of charity above $24,000. But for the small guy, that might have benefited from giving 5k or 10k to charity, that will no longer be a benefit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 01:11:13 AM
I was reading today that they plan to get rid of the $4050 exemption per person in the family, as i predicted.
But being that there will be alot of back and forth in congress regarding the tax bill, NOW IS THE TIME TO REACH OUT TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR.
But that might be (at least partially) offset by a larger child tax credit.

Quote
Increase child tax credit: The framework calls for a "substantially higher" child tax credit, which today is worth $1,000 per child under 17. It will be up to lawmakers to determine how much higher to make it. In addition, it would raise the income thresholds for eligibility for the credit, meaning more people would qualify for it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 28, 2017, 01:22:12 AM
But that might be (at least partially) offset by a larger child tax credit.

But exemptions work for anyone in your house that you are claiming no matter the age, since you are supporting them.
Making the child tax bigger is nice, but it's useless for anyone in your family over the age of 17.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on September 28, 2017, 11:55:36 AM
But that might be (at least partially) offset by a larger child tax credit.

If that credit is remains refundable, would be nice...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 12:07:23 PM
But exemptions work for anyone in your house that you are claiming no matter the age, since you are supporting them.
Making the child tax bigger is nice, but it's useless for anyone in your family over the age of 17.
At the lower end (and possibly up to middle) of the income scale, I would guess that (refundable) credits are more meaningful than personal exemptions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on September 28, 2017, 12:30:03 PM
As for CHARITY, it may take a huge hit.
With the raise in the standard deduction, only people that have lots of mortgage interest over $24,000 will benefit from adding charity to their itemized deduction, or for people that give a lot of charity above $24,000. But for the small guy, that might have benefited from giving 5k or 10k to charity, that will no longer be a benefit.
Loss of the state/local tax deduction makes it even worse for charity.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 12:37:49 PM
Loss of the state/local tax deduction makes it even worse for charity.

How many Yidden are motivated by the tax benefit to give Tzedoko rather than the Mitzvah?

OTOH, maybe cutting out some of the "Charity" that goes to "Progressive" causes might actually be a good thing.

You've got to see the silver lining in everything.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 28, 2017, 12:44:19 PM
How many Yidden are motivated by the tax benefit to give Tzedoko rather than the Mitzvah?

OTOH, maybe cutting out some of the "Charity" that goes to "Progressive" causes might actually be a good thing.

You've got to see the silver lining in everything.

I was going to say something similar, but any big donors are still going to get the charitable deduction. The guy who gives $5k-$10k a year might not itemize anymore, but nothing changes for the 100k donors
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 28, 2017, 12:46:32 PM
OTOH, maybe cutting out some of the "Charity" that goes to "Progressive" causes might actually be a good thing.

You've got to see the silver lining in everything.
No silver lining in less charity.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 12:48:27 PM
I was going to say something similar, but any big donors are still going to get the charitable deduction. The guy who gives $5k-$10k a year might not itemize anymore, but nothing changes for the 100k donors
But I am sure that the Frum big donor will continue giving צדקה regardless, and will not reduce their giving.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 12:51:58 PM
No silver lining in less charity.
If the Charity was true charity, I would agree with you, but very often it is a disguise for political agenda activism, and in many others is just another way just creates fat salaries for people that run the charities (universities, Red Cross, etc. etc.).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 28, 2017, 12:56:21 PM
If the Charity was true charity, I would agree with you, but very often it is a disguise for political agenda activism, and in many others is just another way just creates fat salaries for people that run the charities (universities, Red Cross, etc. etc.).
It is hard to weed out the good from the bad. I guess the way I look at it the more given to charity will increase the chance more is going for good. I try not to look at the opposite.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on September 28, 2017, 01:12:54 PM
But I am sure that the Frum big donor will continue giving צדקה regardless, and will not reduce their giving.
I am sure that many calculate the deduction when calculating how much to give.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on September 28, 2017, 01:43:45 PM
If the Charity was true charity, I would agree with you, but very often it is a disguise for political agenda activism, and in many others is just another way just creates fat salaries for people that run the charities (universities, Red Cross, etc. etc.).

Cant give this enpugh likes. There is almost no oversight on charity operations. Too many have operating expenses that are many multiple of distributed funds. For a lot of foundatioms it seems like their sole purpose is to support family members with lavish salaries at taxpayer expense. None of this is going to be fixed by this type of tax reform, but if it were it could fix a big part of the revenue problem
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on September 28, 2017, 01:52:39 PM
@ExGingi I'm surprised at you. I think here the Rebbe's approach would much more strongly agree with @ChaimMoskowitz ...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
@ExGingi I'm surprised at you. I think here the Rebbe's approach would much more strongly agree with @ChaimMoskowitz ...
Never underestimate the value of איפכא מסתברא  ;)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on September 28, 2017, 02:36:41 PM
I think here the Rebbe's approach would much more strongly agree with @ChaimMoskowitz ...
I get that a lot.  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on September 28, 2017, 02:40:09 PM
I am sure that many calculate the deduction when calculating how much to give.
Probably true. But wouldn't we be in a much better world if everything would be considered just on its merits, rather than ulterior benefits? The tax code, which is bloated and convoluted, is a hindrance on American Exceptionalism, and so many other values which are the basis of the establishment of the US form of government.

Don't get me wrong. I directly benefit from this convoluted situation. People consult with me, and taxes are very often a major part of the equation. But the fact that so many accountants, lawyers, and other professionals benefit from it, not to mention the huge Washington bureaucracy that lives off it (even if we talk only about the IRS), doesn't make it right. There would be paid if we moved to a flat tax, or a consumption-based tax TO REPLACE the entire current IRC, but that paid would be soon forgotten by the growth and opportunities created.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on September 28, 2017, 02:42:26 PM
Probably true. But wouldn't we be in a much better world if everything would be considered just on its merits, rather than ulterior benefits? The tax code, which is bloated and convoluted, is a hindrance on American Exceptionalism, and so many other values which are the basis of the establishment of the US form of government.

Don't get me wrong. I directly benefit from this convoluted situation. People consult with me, and taxes are very often a major part of the equation. But the fact that so many accountants, lawyers, and other professionals benefit from it, not to mention the huge Washington bureaucracy that lives off it (even if we talk only about the IRS), doesn't make it right. There would be paid if we moved to a flat tax, or a consumption-based tax TO REPLACE the entire current IRC, but that paid would be soon forgotten by the growth and opportunities created.
It is not calculating a benefit. It means that more odds available when 40 percent comes off of taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on September 29, 2017, 12:52:19 AM
Loss of the state/local tax deduction makes it even worse for charity.
Correct. That loss, and property tax loss, will have the little guy opting for the higher standard deuction instead, and charity loses out.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 02, 2017, 11:10:40 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/26/for-some-in-middle-class-trump-plan-would-mean-tax-increase.html

http://tpc-election-calculator.urban.org/

In a effort to simplify the tax code, Trump/Republicans want to drop all the $4,050 exemptions that you get for every member in your household and instead replace that with raising the standard deduction from $12,700 to $30,000, without having any personal exemptions . For a family of 4 (2 kids), that is fine since they will get $30,000 tax free instead of $28,900 (4x $4050 + 12,700). But for a family with let's say 5 kids it is a disaster. Instead of being able to earn $41,050 tax free ($4,050 x 7 + $12,700), you will now only get a standard deduction of $30,000. They are in effect treating a family with 5 or 6 kids, the same as a family with 1 or 2 kids.

Is there any effective way to contact the Republican congressman and senators and tell them that its ok to want to simplify the tax code and to want to remove all the personal exemptions, but they can't to that on the backs of large families. It makes no sense to make one standard deduction of $30,000 for both small and large families, and no longer have exemptions for each family member.

Who wants to help me figure out if the expanded child tax credit offsets the exemption loss, or not?

Also, is the additional child tax credit, refundable?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 03, 2017, 01:19:56 AM
Who wants to help me figure out if the expanded child tax credit offsets the exemption loss, or not?

Also, is the additional child tax credit, refundable?

The additional child tax credit is not refundable.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 03, 2017, 01:23:59 AM
Its not too late to reach out to your congressman. The more complaints they get, may cause a change.

According to various reports that I have read, large families will lose out badly.

Also, the $5,000 pre tax employer dependant care fsa will disappear as well.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 03, 2017, 02:50:34 PM
I did a quick recalc of my 2016 return. Let's just say I'm not in favor of this bill. The loss of the state/city income tax deductions,  exemptions, and dependant care FSA are nowhere near fully offset by the changes to the marginal rates and the child tax credit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ar on November 05, 2017, 01:30:36 AM
I'm working here for over an hour calculating all different scenarios based on families with 2-7 kids, and income between 80-150K

My analysis is that most homeowners will lose out under Trumps plan since it caps interest deduction & state/property taxes. The rest of the concerns regarding larger families not getting the personal deduction is not accurate since Trump is raising the CTC (child tax credit) to $1600 per child and raising the income threshold for CTC to 230K for married filers.

Bottom line, anyone owninng a house in NY/NJ and paying state, local & property taxes over 10K will need to pay between 1-3K more in federal taxes because of Trump.

Crazy - I hope this doesn't pass
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 05, 2017, 01:43:27 AM
The rest of the concerns regarding larger families not getting the personal deduction is not accurate since Trump is raising the CTC (child tax credit) to $1600 per child and raising the income threshold for CTC to 230K for married filers.
Might be true for children up to the age of 17.
But how many people have dependants into their 20's at home and in college, that you can't claim $1600 of child tax credit for, yet you are losing $4,050 exemption for each one of them, plus the loss of your own and your spouses exemption?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 06, 2017, 08:57:22 PM
They just added back the deduction for up to $5,000 of employer-provided dependent-care assistance.

https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_chairman_amendment.pdf (https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_chairman_amendment.pdf)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 07, 2017, 10:38:37 AM
The plan repeals QTR which allowed educational institutions to pay for their employees dependents tution tax free, something Yeshivas took advantage of. All of those wages will now be subject to 15% payroll tax plus the employees tax rate. Will the Yeshiva employees be able absorb that hit by themselves? Can the Yeshiva's budgets afford to compensate the employees for the additional tax they will have to pay without raising tution? Overall this is not looking good for the average frum family.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 07, 2017, 12:18:11 PM
Overall this is not looking good for the average frum family.
FTFY
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 07, 2017, 02:00:52 PM
I fully expect the SALT and other deduction removals to be changed, even if not entirely preserved.

That said, it is with no subtlety that this tax plan favors first corporations, then high income earners, then middle class. Like most things Trump does, the first offer is "screw you" with the hopes of getting the other side to negotiate their way to something only slightly less detrimental for themselves. So far this strategy hasn't worked very well in the political arena - the other side doesn't engage the way people who are negotiating for their own interests would.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 07, 2017, 02:32:07 PM
FTFY
No fix necessary, I meant average frum family.
Frum families tend to have more children than the average family putting them at a larger disadvantage with this proposal. And secondly the bulk of frum families in America live in states with a high state income tax and real estate tax which will adversely affect them more than a family for example in Wyoming.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 07, 2017, 02:48:05 PM
No fix necessary, I meant average frum family.
Frum families tend to have more children than the average family putting them at a larger disadvantage with this proposal. And secondly the bulk of frum families in America live in states with a high state income tax and real estate tax which will adversely affect them more than a family for example in Wyoming.
Yes. Indeed. The average frum family does seem to be worse off with this plan. Penalizing large families is bad public and economic policy. Just look at Europe's and Japan's shrinking population problems. The Japanese haven't figured out what to do yet, and the Europeans imported Muslims to make up from shrinking populations, with very significant unintended consequences.

I actually have very mixed feelings about this. While the plan does away with all kinds of special interests and subsidies, it is just a tweak rather than an overhaul - which is what this country needs. QTR (along with many other provisions) are highly discriminatory based on a person's employer. What we need is a LEVEL playing field, where people can make decisions based on the actual merits, rather than having to figure out tax consequences of the decision.

I have clients who take advantage of QTR to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year. This is also beneficial to the employers, as they save on their FICA and workers comp! I would hate to see my clients lose that benefit (though I believe a workaround will be found), but I really think that the fact that the treatments of a person's income should be different based on where he or she works, or the ability to purchase health insurance be tied to the workplace, is something that it is high time America puts in its dark past.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 07, 2017, 04:53:12 PM
They just added back the deduction for up to $5,000 of employer-provided dependent-care assistance.

https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_chairman_amendment.pdf (https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_chairman_amendment.pdf)
Nice.
An amendment is as good as the actual law?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 07, 2017, 04:55:49 PM
Nice.
An amendment is as good as the actual law?

Neither one is actual law, but yes an amendment would be the same as the original bill.

But this QTR thing is a huge blow. Can also knock many Rebbeim and teachers off of Medicaid.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 07, 2017, 05:21:28 PM
How would this tax plan look different if people were able to vote on it instead of elected officials? Would that be a better structure?

I'm asking this only partly hypothetically- we almost have the technology today to get rid of elected officials entirely and replace them by giving voters the ability to weigh in on every issue directly.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on November 07, 2017, 05:26:06 PM
How would this tax plan look different if people were able to vote on it instead of elected officials? Would that be a better structure?

I'm asking this only partly hypothetically- we almost have the technology today to get rid of elected officials entirely and replace them by giving voters the ability to weigh in on every issue directly.

The Founders chose a Representative Democracy over a Direct Democracy quite deliberately. 

ETA:  Here's an easy read:

http://www.economist.com/node/18586520
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 08, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Were there any amendments added today?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yzj on November 08, 2017, 10:56:29 PM
Neither one is actual law, but yes an amendment would be the same as the original bill.

But this QTR thing is a huge blow. Can also knock many Rebbeim and teachers off of Medicaid.

I don’t think people realize the enormous impact to the entire Frum community here. If QTR is eliminated it will affect almost everyone with kids. Schools will have to raise tuition dramatically to retain rabbeim who will now have to pay for private health insurance and taxes on their tuition benefits. This will effectively lower their take home pay by tens of thousands of dollars. QTR is what allows the rabbeim and morahs to work for the relatively low salaries they receive right now. There is no way that the best and the brightest will stay without compensation for their lost income. And every one of us will be footing that bill. We have to reach out to our elected officials to tell them that this issue is of paramount importance to our community and get them to intervene before it is too late...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 08, 2017, 11:17:00 PM
I don’t think people realize the enormous impact to the entire Frum community here. If QTR is eliminated it will affect almost everyone with kids. Schools will have to raise tuition dramatically to retain rabbeim who will now have to pay for private health insurance and taxes on their tuition benefits. This will effectively lower their take home pay by tens of thousands of dollars. QTR is what allows the rabbeim and morahs to work for the relatively low salaries they receive right now. There is no way that the best and the brightest will stay without compensation for their lost income. And every one of us will be footing that bill. We have to reach out to our elected officials to tell them that this issue is of paramount importance to our community and get them to intervene before it is too late...

Agreed, this is huge. The problem is that it doesn't look like they are allowing any amendments on the House floor so not sure if much can be done at this point. The Senate is expected to release their version tomorrow so we'll have to see what they have in mind, but the Senate is being even more fiscally constrained so I'm not too optimistic. I guess there could be a chance once they go to conference.

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.

We definitely need to raise awareness.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 09, 2017, 08:35:01 AM

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.
That is seemingly the target.

A direct hit to the left wing which dominates academia.

The frum community is collateral damage.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 08:49:30 AM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/b2f2e50cad1ba8d764ba989552450cf0.png)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 09, 2017, 09:23:56 AM
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 09, 2017, 11:09:54 AM
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).

It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 09, 2017, 12:26:28 PM
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
You are absolutely correct. The only way to raise the revenues is by broadening the tax base. The problem is that this bill isn't true reform, it's just tweaking and changing things, still allowing special interests to have an influence. Interestingly, from what I've seen (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2017/11/02/estate-tax-repeal-with-stepped-up-basis-in-house-tax-bill/#435a38335e7d), the proposed bill gets rid of the Estate Tax, but doesn't get rid of the stepped-up basis, or impose a capital gains tax at death, which most estate tax repeal suggestions have as a reasonable offset (I really wonder which SIG managed to get the bill to include a repeal of the Estate Tax while keeping the step-up in basis).

The tax code is too long, and really needs to be entirely scrapped and rewritten in a simple way. There's no way out of imposing a VAT, and (I think) I'd much rather have it done when the Rs are in power, so that some limits and checks and balances are put in place along with it, rather than the Ds puting it in place.

Very importantly, true reform should eliminate (to the greatest extent possible) the huge tradeoffs that come with increased income (at least up to around $250,000 of income is reached). Having to worry about the next $1,000 in earnings costing more than just the tax on those $1,000, such as the loss of other benefits which were available without those $1,000, isn't something that does good for the individual or for the economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-11-09/how-to-break-out-of-our-long-national-tax-nightmare
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 02:54:40 PM
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 09, 2017, 04:47:55 PM
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?

No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.

But one thing I just learned about today - that is potentially huge - is that under the plan all NQ comp has to be paid out within the next 10 years so that it can be taxed. Can anyone confirm that? If it's true, I'll have to completely take back what I said about not being able to grab enough revenue from just the small number of income earners at the very top.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 06:00:41 PM
No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.
Not following your logic. If it doesn't need to be revenue neutral, the provisions intended to lower taxes on businesses don't need to be offset by raising taxes on any particular segment of individuals.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 06:05:19 PM
They have an arbitrary limit of how much revenue it can cost.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 06:52:39 PM
They have an arbitrary limit of how much revenue it can cost.
Link?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 09, 2017, 07:29:37 PM
Not following your logic. If it doesn't need to be revenue neutral, the provisions intended to lower taxes on businesses don't need to be offset by raising taxes on any particular segment of individuals.

Revenue non-neutral comes in degrees. A free giveaway to businesses is impossible. A full offset from individuals is not happening. Make the assumption that a significant percentage is offset and my statement should make sense.

Essentially what @aygart  said.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 08:09:29 PM
Revenue non-neutral comes in degrees. A free giveaway to businesses is impossible. A full offset from individuals is not happening. Make the assumption that a significant percentage is offset and my statement should make sense.

Essentially what @aygart  said.
What they've proposed may turn out to be just as 'impossible'. You're trying to say that since they wanted lower business taxes, therefore they needed to make the specific increases they've proposed. I don't see that as a true statement at all.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 09, 2017, 08:14:46 PM
What they've proposed may turn out to be just as 'impossible'. You're trying to say that since they wanted lower business taxes, therefore they needed to make the specific increases they've proposed. I don't see that as a true statement at all.

What do you see as true
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 08:20:49 PM
What do you see as true
That cutting business taxes doesn't necessitate the specific changes for individuals that they proposed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on November 09, 2017, 10:02:19 PM
That cutting business taxes doesn't necessitate the specific changes for individuals that they proposed.

That's not what you said. And I never implied that either. The two facts at hand are business tax down, individual up. You seemed to be arguing that money from individual could be meaningfully raised from the top or bottom of the pyramid. Now I have no idea what's up, but if your last statement is the point you were trying to make I'm not standing in your way
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 09, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
That's not what you said. And I never implied that either. The two facts at hand are business tax down, individual up. You seemed to be arguing that money from individual could be meaningfully raised from the top or bottom of the pyramid. Now I have no idea what's up, but if your last statement is the point you were trying to make I'm not standing in your way
I never said anything remotely close to this (bolded). You pointed out that they had to get the money from the upper middle class because no other segment could fill the gap. I pointed out that once revenue neutral is out the door, it doesn't have to come from anyone.

Also (totally separate point), CPA mentioned the fact that some of the highest earners will get some of the biggest cuts. Not sure where that fits into your tidy cuts - you may not be able to raise more revenue from them, but that's not a reason to lower revenue from them.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 10, 2017, 06:33:44 AM
I believe the Senate cannot raise the debt by more than 1.5T over the next 10 years so the cuts in business tax rates as well as estate tax have to be offset to some degree hence the repeal of SALT.
I quickly looked through the Senant proposal and I did not see anything regarding QTR. Which means there is hope, that assuming both bills pass, QTR can survive reconciliation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 11, 2017, 07:44:32 PM
Agreed, this is huge. The problem is that it doesn't look like they are allowing any amendments on the House floor so not sure if much can be done at this point. The Senate is expected to release their version tomorrow so we'll have to see what they have in mind, but the Senate is being even more fiscally constrained so I'm not too optimistic. I guess there could be a chance once they go to conference.

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.

We definitely need to raise awareness.
How do universities use QTR?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 11, 2017, 07:47:20 PM
How do universities use QTR?
They don't charge 50k tuition to PhD students involved in research etc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 11, 2017, 08:03:35 PM
They don't charge 50k tuition to PhD students involved in research etc
Now i get it.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/7/16612288/gop-tax-bill-graduate-students
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 11, 2017, 08:59:57 PM
http://hamodia.com/2017/11/07/local-accountants-gauge-effects-tax-bill-orthodox-community/

Another Lakewood-based accountant, Menachem Abraham, said that, besides the official changes called for by the legislation, the proposal could also stand to affect low-income families.

“One thing that could be a hit is that taking away deductions for each child will raise their regular income. That could make it hard for people who presently qualify for public assistance programs,” he told Hamodia.



Does anyone have a clue what he means? How does taking away deductions for each child (exemptions), raise regular income? Exemptions and deductions are taken AFTER AGI. So how would it affect people's programs?

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 11, 2017, 11:10:18 PM
They don't charge 50k tuition to PhD students involved in research etc
So how does this work in yeshivas in practice? Do they somehow report the tuition waivers for anyone receiving a break?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 12, 2017, 12:10:37 AM
http://hamodia.com/2017/11/07/local-accountants-gauge-effects-tax-bill-orthodox-community/



Does anyone have a clue what he means? How does taking away deductions for each child (exemptions), raise regular income? Exemptions and deductions are taken AFTER AGI. So how would it affect people's programs?

I'm not that familiar with how the programs work but I believe most of them look at AGI and not taxable income in which case you are correct that it would not affect being eligible for programs (there are some above the line items that are on the chopping block like student loan interest and the educater deduction, but these are small items)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 12, 2017, 06:58:58 AM
So how does this work in yeshivas in practice? Do they somehow report the tuition waivers for anyone receiving a break?
IINM QTR doesn't get reported anywhere (definitely not on the individual level - maybe a non-profit would report it as a lump sum expenditures on their books - IDK)  It's just something that exists on the books/bylaws and subject to legal scrutiny in case there was an investigation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 12, 2017, 08:49:28 AM
So how does this work in yeshivas in practice? Do they somehow report the tuition waivers for anyone receiving a break?
No, it's not a deduction, they are totally excluded from gross income.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 12, 2017, 09:05:25 AM
So how does this work in yeshivas in practice? Do they somehow report the tuition waivers for anyone receiving a break?
Also. Many yeshivas (or at least some divisions thereof) are structured as religious corporations (congregations) and don't have to file there own tax returns. QTR doesn't get reported on the individual side at all.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 12, 2017, 11:36:32 AM
I guess where I'm going with this is how would its repeal affect yeshivas in practice? Are they suddenly going to be required to include the tuition waiver as income on the rebbeim's paychecks (or some sort of reporting for anyone receiving a waiver/reduction I guess)? What's to stop them from making different tiers of tuition or some other creative method to avoid the problem?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 12, 2017, 03:14:48 PM
I guess where I'm going with this is how would its repeal affect yeshivas in practice? Are they suddenly going to be required to include the tuition waiver as income on the rebbeim's paychecks (or some sort of reporting for anyone receiving a waiver/reduction I guess)? What's to stop them from making different tiers of tuition or some other creative method to avoid the problem?

The Yeshiva would need to report the value of the waiver as compensation on the W-2. The Yeshiva would need to pay its portion on social security and medicare tax.
QTR also applies when for example they pay the tuition for a Rebbi's (in a boys elementary school) girls and high school tuition at other schools.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on November 12, 2017, 03:46:14 PM
I guess where I'm going with this is how would its repeal affect yeshivas in practice? Are they suddenly going to be required to include the tuition waiver as income on the rebbeim's paychecks (or some sort of reporting for anyone receiving a waiver/reduction I guess)? What's to stop them from making different tiers of tuition or some other creative method to avoid the problem?
So in summary

1. Yes
2. That’s probably tax fraud but we’ll wait and see. They could possibly turn more tuition $ into fees and waive the fees, idk.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 12, 2017, 06:32:11 PM
I guess where I'm going with this is how would its repeal affect yeshivas in practice? Are they suddenly going to be required to include the tuition waiver as income on the rebbeim's paychecks (or some sort of reporting for anyone receiving a waiver/reduction I guess)? What's to stop them from making different tiers of tuition or some other creative method to avoid the problem?
My experience in dealing with the administrators of some of the larger Yeshivas in the tri-state area is they do their best to go by the book and do not play that type of shtick. They have outside accountants advising them on how to play by the rules and have their books in order.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 12, 2017, 06:38:09 PM
My experience in dealing with the administrators of some of the larger Yeshivas in the tri-state area is they do their best to go by the book and do not play that type of shtick. They have outside accountants advising them on how to play by the rules and have their books in order.
I never said going outside the rules. What I'm asking is whether a repeal of QTR is guaranteed to be a huge problem, or it would be a potential huge problem (depending on the details)?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mb1 on November 12, 2017, 08:58:14 PM
While I am against repealing QTR, it seems like an incredibly unfair rule.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 12, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
While I am against repealing QTR, it seems like an incredibly unfair rule.
As is a lot of the tax code.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 12, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
While I am against repealing QTR, it seems like an incredibly unfair rule.
Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 13, 2017, 02:01:48 AM
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/12/orrin-hatch-to-introduce-senate-tax-reform-bill-amendments-changing-401k-ira-classifications.html

We can only wish for the last 2 paragraphs!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 13, 2017, 08:02:23 AM
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/12/orrin-hatch-to-introduce-senate-tax-reform-bill-amendments-changing-401k-ira-classifications.html

We can only wish for the last 2 paragraphs!

Amendment #4 would allow 25% of religious school tution to be deductible as a charitable deduction.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 13, 2017, 05:48:04 PM
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 13, 2017, 07:06:31 PM
https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/tax_cuts_and_jobs_act_section_by_section_hr1.pdf

For those that want to read the old rules vs. the proposed House rules.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mordechain on November 13, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
Anyone know what happens to the foreign tax credit?
Also, the additional child tax credit until now was refundable. Is that changing?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 03:09:25 PM

Also, the additional child tax credit until now was refundable. Is that changing?

The $1000 stays the same. The additional $600 is not refundable.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
Now they want to repeal Obamacare mandate.

But, while it will save the government money, wont it cost prices to skyrocket for people that have insurance, since many healthy people will no longer buy?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 14, 2017, 03:49:25 PM
i
The $1000 stays the same. The additional $600 is not refundable.
The 1,000 refundable portion would be indexed for inflation and rise till it reaches 1,600
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 14, 2017, 03:59:47 PM
Now they want to repeal Obamacare mandate.

But, while it will save the government money, wont it cost prices to skyrocket for people that have insurance, since many healthy people will no longer buy?
No because it will then allow the rest of Obamacare to be dealt with properly. The biggest roadblock was the CBO estimate of how many people will be uninsured due to any change. around 80-85% of it was due to mandate repeal. Once that is out of the way the numbers are much more workable. This is what I was saying in the Obamacare thread at the time.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 14, 2017, 05:09:06 PM
why do they assume that lower taxes for huge corporation will make wages higher... it just makes the rich richer!


Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 14, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
why do they assume that lower taxes for huge corporation will make wages higher... it just makes the rich richer!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics

This is the theory. Whether it's any good at predicting the effects they're going for is another story.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 14, 2017, 05:28:47 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics

This is the theory. Whether it's any good at predicting the effects they're going for is another story.

even the wiki does not speak directly to increased wages. It says it will increase companies ability to invest and consume which will make up the taxes lost.

Pence is directly saying it leads to wages and to me there is no evidence to support that nonsense.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 14, 2017, 05:30:23 PM
He is so full of shit. saying it will better the small guy. It just makes the wealthy corporations have more money and power. which leads to aless adverse workforce.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 05:49:19 PM
I have read that if companies have more money, they will just use it to buy back their own stocks from shareholders. It won't help the economy.

Also, what is the point of stimulating an economy, that already is at a low of 4% unemployment?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 14, 2017, 05:49:25 PM
why do they assume that lower taxes for huge corporation will make wages higher... it just makes the rich richer!



http://www.nber.org/papers/w15263.pdf
Controlling for observable worker characteristics, a one percent lower state tax rate is associated with a 0.36 percent higher union wage premium, suggesting that workers in a fully unionized firm capture roughly 54 percent of the benefits of low tax rates.

http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp16003.pdf
Our results indicate that workers bear about 40% of the total tax burden.

https://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/75xx/doc7503/2006-09.pdf
Given those values, domestic labor bears slightly more than 70 percent of the burden of the corporate income tax. The domestic owners of capital bear slightly more than 30 percent of the burden. Domestic landowners receive a small benefit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 14, 2017, 05:50:07 PM
to me there is no evidence to support that nonsense.
Did you even look?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 06:18:42 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2017/11/10/the-house-tax-bill-middle-class-cut-or-big-bait-and-switch/#3be2126c1d13
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 11:32:40 PM
Democratic Senators freaking out at the thought of the individual mandate repeal as part of the tax overhaul.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?437283-2/senate-finance-committee-considers-gop-tax-reform-bill
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on November 14, 2017, 11:34:25 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/sen-paul-plans-amendment-to-gut-obamacare-in-tax-bill-testing-gop-unity/2017/11/14/f95066c6-c94e-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html?utm_term=.fe2b3fe19d7b     looks like they may  up the child tax credit to $2k per child
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 14, 2017, 11:43:44 PM
If they are going to come up with $300 billion, by repealing the individual mandate, how do we put some pressure to make sure that they include a tax break for paying private school tuition?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 09:54:47 AM
Now they want to repeal Obamacare mandate.

But, while it will save the government money, wont it cost prices to skyrocket for people that have insurance, since many healthy people will no longer buy?
No because it will then allow the rest of Obamacare to be dealt with properly. The biggest roadblock was the CBO estimate of how many people will be uninsured due to any change. around 80-85% of it was due to mandate repeal. Once that is out of the way the numbers are much more workable. This is what I was saying in the Obamacare thread at the time.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/11/15/how-the-cbo-drove-obamacares-individual-mandate-repeal-into-tax-reform/#6e49c7f63e48
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 15, 2017, 10:35:51 AM
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15263.pdf
Controlling for observable worker characteristics, a one percent lower state tax rate is associated with a 0.36 percent higher union wage premium, suggesting that workers in a fully unionized firm capture roughly 54 percent of the benefits of low tax rates.

http://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp16003.pdf
Our results indicate that workers bear about 40% of the total tax burden.

https://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/75xx/doc7503/2006-09.pdf
Given those values, domestic labor bears slightly more than 70 percent of the burden of the corporate income tax. The domestic owners of capital bear slightly more than 30 percent of the burden. Domestic landowners receive a small benefit.

Talking points... just studies with an agenda. All trying to make up a false narrative that lowering corporate taxes will bust wages, while the two have no direct causation or correlation .

If they wanted the individual to have more money they should lower the individual taxes and we would have more money in our pockets! They are full of shit, I mean stuff.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 15, 2017, 10:38:40 AM
Talking points... just studies with an agenda. All trying to make up a false narrative that lowering corporate taxes will bust wages, while the two have no direct causation or correlation .

If they wanted the individual to have more money they should lower the individual taxes and we would have more money in our pockets! They are full of shit, I mean stuff.
If everything were just so simple and/or black and white...

A good suggested read is: http://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/life-on-the-edge
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 10:42:50 AM
Talking points... just studies with an agenda. All trying to make up a false narrative that lowering corporate taxes will bust wages, while the two have no direct causation or correlation .

If they wanted the individual to have more money they should lower the individual taxes and we would have more money in our pockets!
On what basis are you saying this other than that you disagree? Do you have any source? The top one was written in part by the a Vice President at the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City and the last is from the CBO.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 10:44:02 AM
If everything were just so simple and/or black and white...

A good suggested read is: http://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/life-on-the-edge

It is very simple. Anything which disagrees with what I want to true is full of @#*^%$&^#%$
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 15, 2017, 10:44:40 AM
On what basis are you saying this other than that you disagree? Do you have any source? The top one was written in part by the a Vice President at the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City and the last is from the CBO.
הוא מתיב לה והוא מפרק לה:

Talking points... just (studies with) an agenda.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 15, 2017, 11:00:56 AM
It is very simple. Anything which disagrees with what I want to true is full of @#*^%$&^#%$

I do not need to bring evidence to support a claim that the lowering corporate taxes wont increase wages. You need to present reasonable evidence to support this causation and you have not. Those studies to not prove this. If you can present a logical argument then there will be a requirement to submit evidence to debunk that logic. but that is not the case.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:05:04 AM
I do not need to bring evidence to support a claim that the lowering corporate taxes wont increase wages. You need to present reasonable evidence to support this causation and you have not. Those studies to not prove this. If you can present a logical argument then there will be a requirement to submit evidence to debunk that logic. but that is not the case.
Why do these studies not prove it? You have not even mentioned any logic at all other than that we should accept your swear words.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 15, 2017, 11:12:45 AM
Why do these studies not prove it? You have not even mentioned any logic at all other than that we should accept your swear words.

You presented one study from over a decade ago from a budget office under a political agenda. You are far from proving your point.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:17:42 AM
You presented one study from over a decade ago from a budget office under a political agenda. You are far from proving your point.
Until you can come up with something other than that you do not like their findings and some swear words I am still miles closer than you. All three studies there present numbers as a basis to their findings. Do you have any basis to dispute them? Time is irrelevant and you have not shown any reason to believe that the CBO or the Fed was under a political agenda.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
If everything were just so simple and/or black and white...

A good suggested read is: http://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/life-on-the-edge
What point were you trying to make with this? I didn't get through the whole thing, but I skimmed, and it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.

Until you can come up with something other than that you do not like their findings and some swear words I am still miles closer than you. All three studies there present numbers as a basis to their findings. Do you have any basis to dispute them? Time is irrelevant and you have not shown any reason to believe that the CBO or the Fed was under a political agenda.
I'm always curious with you when you do this type of thing. Are you somehow truly only informed of one side of the discussion, or do you have a clearer picture than you let on, and you do things like this just to 'win' the argument with someone who may not be as versed as they should in their own side of the argument?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:38:21 AM
What point were you trying to make with this? I didn't get through the whole thing, but I skimmed, and it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.
I'm always curious with you when you do this type of thing. Are you somehow truly only informed of one side of the discussion, or do you have a clearer picture than you let on, and you do things like this just to 'win' the argument with someone who may not be as versed as they should in their own side of the argument?
Of course there are two sides to this. That is exactly my point. I was responding to these statements of his.

why do they assume that lower taxes for huge corporation will make wages higher... it just makes the rich richer!
Pence is directly saying it leads to wages and to me there is no evidence to support that nonsense.
He is so full of @^%$@%. saying it will better the small guy. It just makes the wealthy corporations have more money and power. which leads to aless adverse workforce.
I responded that there is evidence that it is true. I understand that much has to do with how to interpret the evidence. Most likely is that it helps somewhat but not to the extent the Rs are making it but better than the Ds say. To just brush it aside with no basis at all is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 15, 2017, 11:43:18 AM
Until you can come up with something other than that you do not like their findings and some swear words I am still miles closer than you. All three studies there present numbers as a basis to their findings. Do you have any basis to dispute them? Time is irrelevant and you have not shown any reason to believe that the CBO or the Fed was under a political agenda.

Again, you are trying to prove a point that their is a connection and causation between two things. I do not need to disprove something illogical. Even if the studies were true and conducted without some sort of agenda or mandate it still does not prove that wages will be increase in the feature. By wages I do not mean the executives who are already making hundreds times over the average employee.


Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:47:03 AM
Again, you are trying to prove a point that their is a connection and causation between two things. I do not need to disprove something illogical. Even if the studies were true and conducted without some sort of agenda or mandate it still does not prove that wages will be increase in the feature. By wages I do not mean the executives who are already making hundreds times over the average employee.
I am not proving anything, but just because you decide to ignore their numbers doesn't mean that someone who chooses not to is full of @%$#.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 11:47:50 AM
Of course there are two sides to this. That is exactly my point. I was responding to these statements of his.
I responded that there is evidence that it is true. I understand that much has to do with how to interpret the evidence. Most likely is that it helps somewhat but not to the extent the Rs are making it but better than the Ds say. To just brush it aside with no basis at all is ridiculous.
You say that, but a simple reading of your comments don't imply that. Wouldn't you better serve the 'truth' by stating your whole opinion on the matter in the first place? It's a very misleading tactic that basically promotes a lot of unnecessary back and forth. If it weren't almost entirely in JS threads I'd think it was post padding.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:51:56 AM
You say that, but a simple reading of your comments don't imply that. Wouldn't you better serve the 'truth' by stating your whole opinion on the matter in the first place? It's a very misleading tactic that basically promotes a lot of unnecessary back and forth. If it weren't almost entirely in JS threads I'd think it was post padding.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I don't have an evidence based opinion on supply side economics and anything I would say on the matter would be an appeal to authority. My point was that he wasn't even doing that.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 12:03:47 PM
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I don't have an evidence based opinion on supply side economics and anything I would say on the matter would be an appeal to authority. My point was that he wasn't even doing that.
You could've just written that. I didn't misunderstand you. I had to guess at your opinion based on what you wrote/didn't write.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 12:09:44 PM
You could've just written that. I didn't misunderstand you. I had to guess at your opinion based on what you wrote/didn't write.
I guess that is because I wasn't stating an opinion.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 15, 2017, 03:19:01 PM
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf

What happened to Orrin Hatch's supposed tax break for paying tuition to private religious schools as reported in the end of the link below?

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/12/orrin-hatch-to-introduce-senate-tax-reform-bill-amendments-changing-401k-ira-classifications.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf

What happened to Orrin Hatch's supposed tax break for paying tuition to private religious schools as reported in the end of the link below?

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/12/orrin-hatch-to-introduce-senate-tax-reform-bill-amendments-changing-401k-ira-classifications.html
Who cares? It would allow us to set up 529's for our children in utero!   /s
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 15, 2017, 03:46:27 PM
Who cares? It would allow us to set up 529's for our children in utero!   /s
That is something totally different.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 03:49:52 PM
That is something totally different.
It was a joke. Specifically one mocking that provision.

FYI, /s means sarcasm.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 04:08:55 PM
Tax revolt in Chicago?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-preckwinkle-20171114-story.html#nws=true
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 15, 2017, 06:44:15 PM

What happened to Orrin Hatch's supposed tax break for paying tuition to private religious schools as reported in the end of the link below?


Amendment# 4
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/MasterTaxAmendments.pdf
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 15, 2017, 07:02:50 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/14/why-arent-the-other-hands-up-a-top-trump-advisers-startling-response-to-ceos-not-doing-what-hed-expect/
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on November 15, 2017, 07:12:06 PM
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/360548-expanding-the-child-tax-credit-is-pro-growth
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on November 15, 2017, 07:17:52 PM
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/360548-expanding-the-child-tax-credit-is-pro-growth
Silly article. GDP per capita is at least as important as gdp
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 15, 2017, 07:38:09 PM
Republicans when in power will try to slash tax rates while Democrats will try to increase rates on the rich (de Blasio in NYC). You can debate till your blue in the face - this isn't about facts it's about politics. If you want your wages to increase don't count on the Democrats or Republicans to solve your problems - go get a better education, a better job, a second job.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 15, 2017, 07:55:41 PM
Amendment# 4
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/MasterTaxAmendments.pdf
When did that come out?

Why don't I see any mention of that in the link below regarding THE CHAIRMAN’S MODIFICATION TO THE CHAIRMAN’S MARK OF THE “TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT ? That is not amendments? What do I have wrong?
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf


Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 15, 2017, 08:19:05 PM
When did that come out?

Why don't I see any mention of that in the link below regarding THE CHAIRMAN’S MODIFICATION TO THE CHAIRMAN’S MARK OF THE “TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT ? That is not amendments? What do I have wrong?
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf
I got that Sunday night.

There are the changes to the original bill and amendments that have to be voted on and included - semantics.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 15, 2017, 10:01:12 PM
When did that come out?

Why don't I see any mention of that in the link below regarding THE CHAIRMAN’S MODIFICATION TO THE CHAIRMAN’S MARK OF THE “TAX CUTS AND JOBS ACT ? That is not amendments? What do I have wrong?
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf

Quote from: http://nationalpriorities.tumblr.com/post/14266925954/budget-term-of-the-day-chairmans-mark
A chairman’s mark is the first draft of legislation introduced by the chairman of a committee or subcommittee that is then debated and amended by committee colleagues. This ability to decide the starting point for all further work on a piece of legislation is an important part of the chair’s power.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 15, 2017, 11:06:12 PM
But would you think that if the chairman's modification to the chairman's mark that just came out yesterday, made no mention of private school tuition that was already mentioned on Monday, that it implies that they have forgotten about it, or is it really still there as an amendment?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 15, 2017, 11:16:26 PM
But would you think that if the chairman's modification to the chairman's mark that just came out yesterday, made no mention of private school tuition that was already mentioned on Monday, that it implies that they have forgotten about it, or is it really still there as an amendment?
That can depend whether or not you understand congressional procedures.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 16, 2017, 10:28:22 AM
Republicans when in power will try to slash tax rates while Democrats will try to increase rates on the rich (de Blasio in NYC). You can debate till your blue in the face - this isn't about facts it's about politics. If you want your wages to increase don't count on the Democrats or Republicans to solve your problems - go get a better education, a better job, a second job.

I agree with you and could not have said it better myself. It is just insulting to be lied to and taken as a fool.So I happy about this guy...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/republican-sen-ron-johnson-opposes-gop-senate-tax-package-1510777290
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 16, 2017, 10:42:42 AM
I agree with you and could not have said it better myself. It is just insulting to be lied to and taken as a fool.So I happy about this guy...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/republican-sen-ron-johnson-opposes-gop-senate-tax-package-1510777290
The only fool is the one who comes up with opinions without being willing to review the facts. That includes most (all?) politicians.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 16, 2017, 11:25:07 AM
The only fool is the one who comes up with opinions without being willing to review the facts. That includes most (all?) politicians.

You are participating in trollish behavior  ;D
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 16, 2017, 01:55:53 PM
The bill just past in the House
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 16, 2017, 02:04:27 PM
The bill just past in the House

To be expected. The senate is were the battle will be.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 17, 2017, 07:41:52 AM
The deduction for Yeshiva tution did not make it out of  Committee, the reduction of tax on Craft Beer did. Apparently the Craft beer lobby was more effective than the Yeshiva lobby  ??? If nothing else we may have cheaper beer - I'll drink to that.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on November 17, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/11/16/fact-checking-democratic-claims-about-repealing-obamacares-individual-mandate/#44cf022652fc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 17, 2017, 03:03:01 PM
I saw a bunch of versions of this story, but this one gives the full context.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/17/this-remarkable-angry-exchange-between-senators-unmasks-the-gops-tax-cut-lies/

What was the rationale for rejecting Wydens amendment? It would've gone a long way to helping the messaging if the bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on November 18, 2017, 12:32:09 PM
I saw a bunch of versions of this story, but this one gives the full context.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/17/this-remarkable-angry-exchange-between-senators-unmasks-the-gops-tax-cut-lies/

What was the rationale for rejecting Wydens amendment? It would've gone a long way to helping the messaging if the bill.

Quote
* WHY REPUBLICANS ARE RUSHING THE TAX BILL THROUGH: The House passed its version of tax “reform” yesterday, and the New York Times comments on the breakneck speed of the process:


An article that puts reform in quote marks is admitting to being complete spin.  Find another source for the facts.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 18, 2017, 06:07:00 PM

An article that puts reform in quote marks is admitting to being complete spin.  Find another source for the facts.
I'm sorry, but that's a really dumb response. This amendment was proposed, and then rejected. Unless you have a source that disputes those facts, I'm legitimately looking for an explanation. Maybe there is one, but so far I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on November 18, 2017, 07:04:54 PM
I'm sorry, but that's a really dumb response. This amendment was proposed, and then rejected. Unless you have a source that disputes those facts, I'm legitimately looking for an explanation. Maybe there is one, but so far I haven't seen it.
I agree. Just that you know. :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 19, 2017, 12:49:12 AM
The deduction for Yeshiva tution did not make it out of  Committee, the reduction of tax on Craft Beer did. Apparently the Craft beer lobby was more effective than the Yeshiva lobby  ??? If nothing else we may have cheaper beer - I'll drink to that.
Where did you see that the tuition deduction didn't make it out of committee?

Is it 100% dead now, or can it still be put in the senate plan, so its worth to contact senators?

Lets say it is not in the plan that the senate passes, can it still be put in, when the House and Senate plans go to conference? Or, in order for it to be addressed in conference, it needs to have been included in either the House or Senate plans?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 19, 2017, 10:02:48 AM
Where did you see that the tuition deduction didn't make it out of committee?

Is it 100% dead now, or can it still be put in the senate plan, so its worth to contact senators?

Lets say it is not in the plan that the senate passes, can it still be put in, when the House and Senate plans go to conference? Or, in order for it to be addressed in conference, it needs to have been included in either the House or Senate plans?
It can still technically be added in however it is highly unlikely. The real chance for the tuition deduction to have been added to the bill was in committee, but it appears it was either not lobbied sufficiently amongst the committee members or there was strong opposition to it.   
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
It can still technically be added in however it is highly unlikely. The real chance for the tuition deduction to have been added to the bill was in committee, but it appears it was either not lobbied sufficiently amongst the committee members or there was strong opposition to it.
I doubt the current political climate is conducive to introducing a tuition deduction.

It will be seen as a subsidy for the rich that send to private schools. The fact that a frum Yid will send to a private school regardless of their financial situation, doesn't show up on anyone's radar screen, and even if it would, is (unfortunately) not enough of a political reason to support it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 19, 2017, 12:22:33 PM
I doubt the current political climate is conducive to introducing a tuition deduction.

It will be seen as a subsidy for the rich that send to private schools. The fact that a frum Yid will send to a private school regardless of their financial situation, doesn't show up on anyone's radar screen, and even if it would, is (unfortunately) not enough of a political reason to support it.
The proposed deduction was specifically for religious schools (30% of the curriculum had to be religious based) not privite school. The whole bill is seen as benefiting the rich this would not have made that much of a difference in public opinion.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2017, 04:22:26 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-28/the-rich-don-t-need-a-college-subsidy

Didn't notice this anywhere before. I'm not a big proponent of 529 plans, but if they can be used to pay for tuition at any level, that's actually help for (certain) frum families. And while the writer's logic seems to be correct in that it helps the "rich", we know that a large frum family making $150,000 is far from rich, yet will send all children to "private" schools.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 28, 2017, 04:27:46 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-28/the-rich-don-t-need-a-college-subsidy

Didn't notice this anywhere before. I'm not a big proponent of 529 plans, but if they can be used to pay for tuition at any level, that's actually help for (certain) frum families. And while the writer's logic seems to be correct in that it helps the "rich", we know that a large frum family making $150,000 is far from rich, yet will send all children to "private" schools.

Unless you start saving for tuition before the child starts school and the fund has gains, how would a 529 help frum families?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 28, 2017, 04:50:20 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-28/the-rich-don-t-need-a-college-subsidy

Didn't notice this anywhere before. I'm not a big proponent of 529 plans, but if they can be used to pay for tuition at any level, that's actually help for (certain) frum families. And while the writer's logic seems to be correct in that it helps the "rich", we know that a large frum family making $150,000 is far from rich, yet will send all children to "private" schools.
I'm assuming you know this already, but there is currently a way to accomplish most of what a 529 does and spend it on yeshiva tuition - Coverdell ESA. The limits are ridiculously low though ($2k per kid per year) and there's no NYS income tax deduction like on the 529. I've set them up for my kids, but lately I've been thinking it's more trouble than it's worth.
Unless you start saving for tuition before the child starts school and the fund has gains, how would a 529 help frum families?
You're very much answering your own question. Also, in addition to the advantage of tax-free gains, your 529 contributions (up to $10k per year) are deductible from your NY state income taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2017, 05:56:16 PM
Unless you start saving for tuition before the child starts school and the fund has gains, how would a 529 help frum families?
IIRC 529s can be rolled over from one child to the next. So, if you start with first child, and maximize the contributions every year, by the time the child is a teenager, it might work, and if not, just roll over to the next kid.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2017, 05:58:13 PM
I'm assuming you know this already, but there is currently a way to accomplish most of what a 529 does and spend it on yeshiva tuition - Coverdell ESA. The limits are ridiculously low though ($2k per kid per year) and there's no NYS income tax deduction like on the 529. I've set them up for my kids, but lately I've been thinking it's more trouble than it's worth.You're very much answering your own question. Also, in addition to the advantage of tax-free gains, your 529 contributions (up to $10k per year) are deductible from your NY state income taxes.
I did Coverdells for two (IINM) of my kids. Pulled it out at a certain point. Limits are low and no NYS deduction, so no huge benefit.

IIRC, there was absolutely nowhere on the tax return to report the distribution/use of funds when I pulled out.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 28, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
IIRC 529s can be rolled over from one child to the next. So, if you start with first child, and maximize the contributions every year, by the time the child is a teenager, it might work, and if not, just roll over to the next kid.
The frum families we are talking about can barely afford current expenses let alone prepaying tuition years in advance.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2017, 06:49:07 PM
The frum families we are talking about can barely afford current expenses let alone prepaying tuition years in advance.
But if tuition is $2,000-$3,000 up to age 14 or 15, and then it's anywhere between $5,000 and $15,000 per year, a family might put away a some money early on, to make it easier later, especially if there's a tax deduction. A family living in NY on $150,000 (and more) can use a tax deduction, and could still be struggling, getting serious reprieve from this.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on November 28, 2017, 07:02:26 PM
But if tuition is $2,000-$3,000 up to age 14 or 15, and then it's anywhere between $5,000 and $15,000 per year, a family might put away a some money early on, to make it easier later, especially if there's a tax deduction. A family living in NY on $150,000 (and more) can use a tax deduction, and could still be struggling, getting serious reprieve from this.
I hear. A family making 150k and contributes 10K will save about $650 in NY state tax.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 28, 2017, 07:18:32 PM
I hear. A family making 150k and contributes 10K will save about $650 in NY state tax.
And growth is tax free.

529s also work in Estate planning situations allowing lumping together 5 years of annual exclusions (at least that's what the rule was when I looked at it). But that's definitely a benefit for the rich.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on November 28, 2017, 07:47:48 PM
But if tuition is $2,000-$3,000 up to age 14 or 15, and then it's anywhere between $5,000 and $15,000 per year, a family might put away a some money early on, to make it easier later, especially if there's a tax deduction. A family living in NY on $150,000 (and more) can use a tax deduction, and could still be struggling, getting serious reprieve from this.
Yes. IMO it’s more about saving for tuition. Tax benefits are a plus. But even if the accounts weren’t tax advantaged, it still makes sense to set aside money explicitly for tuition every year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Qwertyuiop on November 28, 2017, 08:22:06 PM
That's funny :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 29, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
As far as I know there is not a limit as to how long funds must stay in the 529 plan before they are withdrawn.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 29, 2017, 01:45:29 PM
As far as I know there is not a limit as to how long funds must stay in the 529 plan before they are withdrawn.
IIRC, the last time I checked they can stay as short as you want, but must be used by the time the beneficiary is 30 years old, or rolled over to a qualifying family member.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on November 29, 2017, 02:01:51 PM
So you can contribute 10k in 2018 and get the tax benefit (if the state ur living in has one) and the next day pay your tuition from the 529 account. This could benefit everyone not just those who have extra funds to put away to grow tax free.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 29, 2017, 02:44:17 PM
So you can contribute 10k in 2018 and get the tax benefit (if the state ur living in has one) and the next day pay your tuition from the 529 account. This could benefit everyone not just those who have extra funds to put away to grow tax free.
Not sure that the specific plan wouldn't have fees that would make that an unattractive option.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mercaz1 on November 29, 2017, 03:56:31 PM
one problem with 529 plans is that they count towards student loans so you might get reduced amount of federal loans if you have a large amount in a 529 plan
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on November 29, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
one problem with 529 plans is that they count towards student loans so you might get reduced amount of federal loans if you have a large amount in a 529 plan
Indeed, though it seems like there are some (limited) workarounds.

But if 529 plans will be able to be used for K-12, financial aid is a non-issue.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 29, 2017, 10:51:04 PM
What is this thing I'm hearing about Rubio and Lee pushing to raise the corporate tax to 22% and to use that money to give larger child tax credit benefits to families with kids?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on November 30, 2017, 09:46:27 AM
What is this thing I'm hearing about Rubio and Lee pushing to raise the corporate tax to 22% and to use that money to give larger child tax credit benefits to families with kids?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-rubio-schumer-amendment-1511998489
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 30, 2017, 10:08:50 AM
Can the R's push this through without even one D?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 30, 2017, 01:51:07 PM
What is this thing I'm hearing about Rubio and Lee pushing to raise the corporate tax to 22% and to use that money to give larger child tax credit benefits to families with kids?
Is Rubio serious about this or will the Republicans vote down his amendment? Will Democrats vote with him on the amendment?

Does anyone know if they voted yet on his amendment?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on November 30, 2017, 02:37:36 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-rubio-schumer-amendment-1511998489
I'm shocked - SHOCKED I tell you - that the WSJ's editorial board is disdainful of any attempts to blunt the massive gains for businesses (especially large corporations) in the proposed reforms. /s

Can the R's push this through without even one D?
They plan to pass this tax reform via reconciliation, which means they only need 50 votes (with Pence being the tie-breaker in that scenario). That means at least 3 republican senators would have to oppose. WaPo lists 10 that have voiced concerns, but I'm skeptical that there will be 3 that actually oppose it when they finally vote on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/tax-bill-senate-whip-count/?utm_term=.04d370839956
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on November 30, 2017, 02:57:13 PM
I'm shocked - SHOCKED I tell you - that the WSJ's editorial board is disdainful of any attempts to blunt the massive gains for businesses (especially large corporations) in the proposed reforms. /s
They plan to pass this tax reform via reconciliation, which means they only need 50 votes (with Pence being the tie-breaker in that scenario). That means at least 3 republican senators would have to oppose. WaPo lists 10 that have voiced concerns, but I'm skeptical that there will be 3 that actually oppose it when they finally vote on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/tax-bill-senate-whip-count/?utm_term=.04d370839956

o boy
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on November 30, 2017, 07:57:14 PM
When are they voting on amendments?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on December 01, 2017, 12:56:47 PM
is anyone else praying they fail and dont get anything passed?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 01, 2017, 02:05:16 PM
is anyone else praying they fail and dont get anything passed?

Something will pass... that much I'm sure of. What will be in it is still too uncertain. Insane
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 01, 2017, 02:18:51 PM
is anyone else praying they fail and dont get anything passed?
Pelosi?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 01, 2017, 02:28:26 PM
Is there a chance that they pass the Rubio-Lee amendment regarding the child tax credit?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 02, 2017, 07:51:35 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2017/12/02/after-a-high-drama-vote-heres-what-the-senate-tax-bill-means-for-schools-parents-and-students/?utm_term=.b568292d51b3
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 02, 2017, 07:52:00 PM
Is there a chance that they pass the Rubio-Lee amendment regarding the child tax credit?
No
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 02, 2017, 07:53:27 PM
If/when it gets done this month when will it take affect?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on December 02, 2017, 08:15:53 PM
but they did add that 529 accounts can be used for school tuition.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 02, 2017, 08:18:41 PM
but they did add that 529 accounts can be used for school tuition.
Can I fund them with a CC?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 08:29:10 PM
Can I fund them with a CC?
Can you fund mine? :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Something Fishy on December 02, 2017, 08:35:10 PM
And good calculator online that lets you compare your taxes going forward to the old plan?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 02, 2017, 08:37:04 PM
And good calculator online that lets you compare your taxes going forward to the old plan?
Not that I found. Since I no longer itemize it is pretty easy for me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 08:41:06 PM
The deduction for religious school tuition was in the final version of the Senate bill and manually crossed out.  >:(
 
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families - or is it?
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 09:25:47 PM
The Senate version with the 2k per child tax credit may end up being good for large families
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families - or is it?
Post by: ExGingi on December 02, 2017, 09:33:22 PM
The Senate version with the 2k per child tax credit may end up being good for large families
Fully refundable?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 02, 2017, 09:35:15 PM
Any easy guidelines or calculators as to whether I should take extra income in 2017 or leave it for January?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 02, 2017, 09:36:12 PM
You don't think they will backdate this to 1/1/17?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 02, 2017, 09:37:14 PM
You don't think they will backdate this to 1/1/17?

No, it's all for 2018
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 02, 2017, 09:38:05 PM
Can I prepay property tax or state income tax?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 02, 2017, 09:39:17 PM
Can I prepay property tax or state income tax?
Usually. Just make an estimated tax payment.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 02, 2017, 09:39:56 PM
Can I prepay property tax or state income tax?

If your state/city lets you then it should be deductible this year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 09:41:29 PM
Can I prepay property tax or state income tax?
If you take the deduction on Schedule A and there is an overpayment of State income tax it will taxable the following year
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families - or is it?
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 09:44:29 PM
Fully refundable?
No, but  it helps those who do pay tax
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 02, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
If you take the deduction on Schedule A and there is an overpayment of State income tax it will taxable the following year

But how about if there is no SALT deduction the following year, so there might not even be a place to include it...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 09:48:03 PM
But how about if there is no SALT deduction the following year, so there might not even be a place to include it...
You would receive a 1099-G from the state and it is included in income on line 10 of the 1040
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 10:06:34 PM
If you take the deduction on Schedule A and there is an overpayment of State income tax it will taxable the following year
How is there a overpayment of state tax, that will be traceable the next year?
Isn't it true that someone might me able to prepay state tax and get a deduction this year, since they pay it this year in 2017?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 10:18:40 PM
How is there a overpayment of state tax, that will be traceable the next year?
Isn't it true that someone might me able to prepay state tax and get a deduction this year, since they pay it this year in 2017?
The state that received the overpayment will issue you a 1099-G stating the overpayment and the IRS gets a copy as well.

Yes, you can prepay and get a deduction for 2017 however you will be taxed on the overpayment in 2018 (if you itemized in 2017)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 10:25:15 PM
The state that received the overpayment will issue you a 1099-G stating the overpayment and the IRS gets a copy as well.

Yes, you can prepay and get a deduction for 2017 however you will be taxed on the overpayment in 2018 (if you itemized in 2017)
Why will they tax you for an overpayment?
You are paying them, not them paying you.
(Don't take a refund, just defer it to the next year.  No? )
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 02, 2017, 10:28:07 PM
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 02, 2017, 10:31:51 PM
Why will they tax you for an overpayment?
You are paying them, not them paying you.
(Don't take a refund, just defer it to the next year.  No? )
Because you got a deduction on a tax payment to the state which you received back. Otherwise you can pay 50k to the State receive back 40k as a refund and deduct the full 50k on your Schedule A. Overpayment is whether you receive it or roll it forward - same difference

https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/is-my-state-tax-refund-taxable-and-why-90/
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 02, 2017, 10:41:34 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQBM1jUVQAAccT8.jpg)
Source WSJ
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 10:42:41 PM
Because you got a deduction on a tax payment to the state which you received back. Otherwise you can pay 50k to the State receive back 40k as a refund and deduct the full 50k on your Schedule A. Overpayment is whether you receive it or roll it forward - same difference

https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/is-my-state-tax-refund-taxable-and-why-90/
You are correct
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 10:53:30 PM
You don't think they will backdate this to 1/1/17?
No way they will do that.
As it is the senate had to push off the corporate reduction till 2019, because it raises the deficit too much. So they wont start this bill before 2018.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 10:57:17 PM
Is the Senate bill bad for lets say someone with a 18, 20 and 22 year old at home, who they still are feeding and clothing?
They dont get to take a penny of the $2,000 child tax credit, yet they lost the $4,050 exemption for each of them. Is there something in the bill that addresses these older children dependents?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 02, 2017, 11:04:09 PM
Because you got a deduction on a tax payment to the state which you received back. Otherwise you can pay 50k to the State receive back 40k as a refund and deduct the full 50k on your Schedule A. Overpayment is whether you receive it or roll it forward - same difference

https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/is-my-state-tax-refund-taxable-and-why-90/
No way to make a 2018 estimated payment instead of 2017?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 02, 2017, 11:04:40 PM
Is the bill good for anyone besides corps?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 02, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Is the bill good for anyone besides corps?
CPAs and lawyers. It keeps them employed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on December 02, 2017, 11:13:25 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQBM1jUVQAAccT8.jpg)
Source WSJ
Don't get this at all. My taxes will skyrocket.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 02, 2017, 11:28:38 PM
Is the Senate bill bad for lets say someone with a 18, 20 and 22 year old at home, who they still are feeding and clothing?
They dont get to take a penny of the $2,000 child tax credit, yet they lost the $4,050 exemption for each of them. Is there something in the bill that addresses these older children dependents?

At least you get $500, even though it doesn't make up for the $4000 exemption loss.

"Meanwhile, filers with dependents who are not qualified children may be able to claim a new $500 nonrefundable credit per dependent. Under the House bill, there would be a new $300 per person credit for parents and dependents over 17."
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 02, 2017, 11:45:29 PM
Don't get this at all. My taxes will skyrocket.
Due to which provision? The higher CTC and possible elimination of AMT are windfalls for many in the frum community.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 12:05:01 AM
But CTC doesn't offset the loss of personal exemption, does it?

I'm concerned about SALT deduction (including property tax) and student loan interest.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
But CTC doesn't offset the loss of personal exemption, does it?

I'm concerned about SALT deduction (including property tax) and student loan interest.
That would depend on how many children and tax bracket.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 03, 2017, 12:27:44 AM
That would depend on how many children and tax bracket.
A family making $80k with 2 kids. 12k in property taxes, and another 12k in mortgage interest. Where do they end up? It seems to me more or less the same?

ETA: Is the property tax deduction also removed under the new tax bill? Or only the local/state income tax deduction?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 03, 2017, 12:42:38 AM
A family making $80k with 2 kids. 12k in property taxes, and another 12k in mortgage interest. Where do they end up? It seems to me more or less the same?

ETA: Is the property tax deduction also removed under the new tax bill? Or only the local/state income tax deduction?
Property tax is allowed up to 10k.

But, I dont understand why they made the number 10k for both single and married filers?

For a single filer, who can deduct 10k, it will be very easy to itemize by including some mortgage interest and charity, since his standard deduction is only $12,000.  But for a married couple, 10k of property tax is not enough of an allowance to make it worth to itemize , since the standard deduction is 24k, and without state and local taxes it may be hard to reach over 24k.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Don't get this at all. My taxes will skyrocket.
What's your point? Say thanks to Trump.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: bubkiz on December 03, 2017, 09:51:53 AM
While I am against repealing QTR, it seems like an incredibly unfair rule.

Any changes to QTR? Will the 529 change be a big benefit to our community?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 09:52:33 AM
Any changes to QTR? Will the 529 change be a big benefit to our community?
I think it will though many here disagree. At the very least it makes it easier to save for yeshiva in s tax advantaged way
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: bubkiz on December 03, 2017, 10:03:36 AM
I think it will though many here disagree. At the very least it makes it easier to save for yeshiva in s tax advantaged way
I do not know the restrictions and exclusions, but it seems NYS has a $10,000 state tax deduction for 529 plans. Assuming the waiting period for withdrawals is minimal, this is effect would enable a significant amount of tuition to be state-tax deductible.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 03, 2017, 10:19:37 AM


I do not know the restrictions and exclusions, but it seems NYS has a $10,000 state tax deduction for 529 plans. Assuming the waiting period for withdrawals is minimal, this is effect would enable a significant amount of tuition to be state-tax deductible.
There's no guarantee that it will remain as is. The state deduction was intended for higher education - if they wanted to they could find a way to keep it limited to yet education.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 03, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
I do not know the restrictions and exclusions, but it seems NYS has a $10,000 state tax deduction for 529 plans. Assuming the waiting period for withdrawals is minimal, this is effect would enable a significant amount of tuition to be state-tax deductible.
From the NYS 529 Plan website

How soon can I begin making withdrawals?

You may make withdrawals at any time, taking into consideration the following guidelines:
•Contributions you make by check, recurring contributions, or electronic bank transfer will be available for withdrawal after seven business days.
•If you request a withdrawal by check at the same time you change your mailing address, the withdrawal will be held for nine business days.
•If you add or change bank information, you need to allow 15 days for withdrawals by electronic transfer

https://www.nysaves.org/home/faqs-managing-your-account.html#how-soon

As the rules are today you can contribute today, withdraw tomorrow to pay qualified tuition (as of now only for collage) and receive a NYS tax deduction.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 11:16:19 AM
I do not know the restrictions and exclusions, but it seems NYS has a $10,000 state tax deduction for 529 plans. Assuming the waiting period for withdrawals is minimal, this is effect would enable a significant amount of tuition to be state-tax deductible.
Unfortunately nj has no such deduction :(. But it’s very possible ny changes it’s deduction if more ppl use it
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 03, 2017, 11:23:30 AM
I'm also curious what happens to the money already in a 529 - does it all automatically become eligible for K-12 tuition. I'd consider attempting to come up with the full $10k (apparently its per couple, not per kid), which I wasn't otherwise going to do for this year, if there's a reasonable expectation that it would later become usable for K-12.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 12:32:33 PM
I'm also curious what happens to the money already in a 529 - does it all automatically become eligible for K-12 tuition. I'd consider attempting to come up with the full $10k (apparently its per couple, not per kid), which I wasn't otherwise going to do for this year, if there's a reasonable expectation that it would later become usable for K-12.
Don’t do it speculatively. Wait until the bill is signed to law.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 03, 2017, 12:39:01 PM
Don’t do it speculatively. Wait until the bill is signed to law.
I think no matter what it's speculative for 2017. Even if it gets signed into law (which they're hoping to do before EOY), that's not the whole picture - there could be a reactionary change on the state side of things.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Something Fishy on December 03, 2017, 12:40:38 PM
And good calculator online that lets you compare your taxes going forward to the old plan?

Not sure how accurate this one is, but it was the first one to give me some real numbers:

http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 03, 2017, 12:55:52 PM
Not sure how accurate this one is, but it was the first one to give me some real numbers:

http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
I've already done a pretty thorough calc on the house bill that showed I'd be paying more tax, and they say I'd pay less tax. As far as I can tell, there don't appear to be any major items they excluded, so I'm not sure where the difference arises.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
Not sure how accurate this one is, but it was the first one to give me some real numbers:

http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Not accurate at all for me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 01:38:41 PM
Not sure how accurate this one is, but it was the first one to give me some real numbers:

http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Where's the option to check for how much pass-through income you have?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 01:46:09 PM
Where's the option to check for how much pass-through income you have?

Most of us don’t have pass through income
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 03, 2017, 02:03:06 PM
Most of us don’t have pass through income
It is actually very common from corner groceries to Amazon resellers
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2017, 02:16:58 PM
It is actually very common from corner groceries to Amazon resellers
Yes, virtually every small business is pass through
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 04:49:17 PM
Yes, virtually every small business is pass through
Why can’t you get in on lower corporate rate?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 04:51:39 PM
Yes, virtually every small business is pass through
Doesn't everyone on this forum have a small business or two?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 04:52:23 PM
Doesn't everyone on this forum have a small business or two?
I don’t. I work for corporate America. And my company isn’t sharing w me any of its extra profits.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 03, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
I don’t. I work for corporate America. And my company isn’t sharing w me any of its extra profits.
Stop your kvetching. Your company pays half your SS/Medicare/Payroll tax and probably also gives you health insurance, 401k, and other benefits.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 05:04:43 PM
I don’t.
You have no business CC's?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 05:06:07 PM
Stop your kvetching. Your company pays half your SS/Medicare/Payroll tax and probably also gives you health insurance, 401k, and other benefits.
I’m kidding not kvetching. But i also am a slave to my company yet do not share its profits significantly. But yes - half of 2 of the above taxes, 6% 401k match, minuscule pension, sike sort of hc, and other less valuable benefits
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 03, 2017, 05:08:12 PM
But i also am a slave to my company...
That's a choice you made.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 05:14:58 PM
Of course
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 03, 2017, 05:30:16 PM
Why can’t you get in on lower corporate rate?
Don't forget that the Corp rate is a double tax. The Corp will pay 20% and then when you get your share of the profits as dividends you'll pay another 20% on your personal return.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 03, 2017, 05:46:06 PM
I'm also curious what happens to the money already in a 529 - does it all automatically become eligible for K-12 tuition. I'd consider attempting to come up with the full $10k (apparently its per couple, not per kid), which I wasn't otherwise going to do for this year, if there's a reasonable expectation that it would later become usable for K-12.
From https://www.cruz.senate.gov/files/documents/Bills/1852.pdf (https://www.cruz.senate.gov/files/documents/Bills/1852.pdf) it seems that the limit is in the distribution not the contribution. The limit is distributions of 10k per beneficiary per year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 03, 2017, 06:08:35 PM
Don't forget that the Corp rate is a double tax. The Corp will pay 20% and then when you get your share of the profits as dividends you'll pay another 20% on your personal return.
I’m talking about marginal impacts.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aradisc on December 03, 2017, 06:30:33 PM
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 03, 2017, 07:53:56 PM
From https://www.cruz.senate.gov/files/documents/Bills/1852.pdf (https://www.cruz.senate.gov/files/documents/Bills/1852.pdf) it seems that the limit is in the distribution not the contribution. The limit is distributions of 10k per beneficiary per year.
10k is also the max annual deduction from NYS taxable income. That's what I'm referring to.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on December 03, 2017, 10:12:26 PM
You have no business CC's?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 03, 2017, 11:43:39 PM
Yes, virtually every small business is pass through
Actually maybe not..
sole proprietor and disregarded LLC's don't get a break. Right?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 04, 2017, 03:41:24 AM
disregarded LLC's - define please
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 04:28:13 AM
disregarded LLC's - define please
Single member LLCs.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 04, 2017, 08:10:12 AM
Single member LLCs.

Thanks. So if the Operating Agreement lists 2 or more members, it's eligible for pass through caps?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families - or is it?
Post by: CPA on December 04, 2017, 09:07:54 AM
In both bill's sole proprietorship are treated as "pass though" entities to take advantage of the tax breaks.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 09:11:19 AM
If passed what tax year will it be for?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 09:12:22 AM
If passed what tax year will it be for?
Starting 2018
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 04, 2017, 09:14:49 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Ygold on December 04, 2017, 09:42:25 AM
So for us not accountants out there, does it make a difference if your llc is set up as single member or as a partnership?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 10:52:35 AM
Don't forget that the Corp rate is a double tax. The Corp will pay 20% and then when you get your share of the profits as dividends you'll pay another 20% on your personal return.

For accuracy's sake, let me just clarify that the top personal rate on dividends is 20% + 3.8% NII tax, for a total of 23.8+20 corp=43.8%
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 04, 2017, 11:11:31 AM
Can anyone help me understand the pass through deduction, and how it works?
To keep things simple, let me try to present an example.

Suppose someone has a LLC or partnership that earns $100k in sales. After $25k in expenses, his final net income is $75k. That is his entire household income. So his household income is normally  $75k on his tax return, thus putting all his income in the 10-15% brackets.
He pays no employees and all his money from the business account goes into his business account, and then he takes money from there to live on whenever needed.

Does such a person get any deduction from the 23% pass through rate? He doesn't officially pay any wages to anyone. But that's how he lives.
Its the pass through limited to the lesser of either 23% off your pass through income OR half your wages expense (whatever that means)?

So does he get any break at all?

Thanks
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 12:23:43 PM
Can anyone help me understand the pass through deduction, and how it works?
To keep things simple, let me try to present an example.

Suppose someone has a LLC or partnership that earns $100k in sales. After $25k in expenses, his final net income is $75k. That is his entire household income. So his household income is normally  $75k on his tax return, thus putting all his income in the 10-15% brackets.
He pays no employees and all his money from the business account goes into his business account, and then he takes money from there to live on whenever needed.

Does such a person get any deduction from the 23% pass through rate? He doesn't officially pay any wages to anyone. But that's how he lives. it seems like no.
Its the pass through limited to the lesser of either 23% off your pass through income OR half your wages expense (whatever that means)? Correct. If wages are 100k then you'll only get the 23% deduction on 217k of pass through income (50k benefit).

So does he get any break at all?

Thanks
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:26:20 PM
If passed what tax year will it be for?
IINM the only tax bill passed during my adult life that was retroactive to January of the year passed was in the Clinton era. I don't know much of the details as I am not sure if I even filed a return at the time, but I remember the buzz going around about how dare they pass a retroactive tax bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 12:32:49 PM
IINM the only tax bill passed during my adult live that was retroactive to January of the year passed was in the Clinton era. I don't know much of the details as I am not sure if I even filed a return at the time, but I remember the buzz going around about how dare they pass a retroactive tax bill.
Were none of the Obamacare taxes retroactive to 1/1?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 04, 2017, 12:35:06 PM


I'm confused.  I thought pass through meant that the entity is not taxed at all and that all tax liability is passed through to the shareholders at what ever rate they get taxed on their household income.  If so, the cap should only kick in if the rate they are taxed is higher than what ever the cap is.  In the case the OP posted, the household tax bracket is 10-15% so the cap is irrelevant.  What am I missing?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 12:35:18 PM
Were none of the Obamacare taxes retroactive to 1/1?
Can't recall. Obamacare had so many other fallouts to deal with, that this detail currently escapes me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 04, 2017, 12:38:24 PM
Can anyone help me understand the pass through deduction, and how it works?
To keep things simple, let me try to present an example.

Suppose someone has a LLC or partnership that earns $100k in sales. After $25k in expenses, his final net income is $75k. That is his entire household income. So his household income is normally  $75k on his tax return, thus putting all his income in the 10-15% brackets.
He pays no employees and all his money from the business account goes into his business account, and then he takes money from there to live on whenever needed.

Does such a person get any deduction from the 23% pass through rate? He doesn't officially pay any wages to anyone. But that's how he lives.
Its the pass through limited to the lesser of either 23% off your pass through income OR half your wages expense (whatever that means)?

So does he get any break at all?

Thanks
He doesn't pay any se tax? ;)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 01:09:00 PM
I'm confused.  I thought pass through meant that the entity is not taxed at all and that all tax liability is passed through to the shareholders at what ever rate they get taxed on their household income.  If so, the cap should only kick in if the rate they are taxed is higher than what ever the cap is.  In the case the OP posted, the household tax bracket is 10-15% so the cap is irrelevant.  What am I missing?
The is a difference between the house and Senate bills. In the house bill you are correct that the lower pass through rate won't help if the taxpayers personal rate is lower, but the Senate Bill is a deduction and would help anyone.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 01:10:12 PM
He doesn't pay any se tax? ;)
How would that help? The bill says specifically W-2 wages.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 04, 2017, 01:12:28 PM
He doesn't pay any se tax? ;)
Of course you do.
If you are active, you pay SE tax on everything.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 01:28:09 PM
Can't figure this out
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf (https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf) page 23 says that "the deduction is limited to 50 percent of the W-2 wages of the
taxpayer." Shouldn't if say the W-2 wages of the partnership?
The text of the bill says "50 percent of the W-2 wages with respect to the qualified trade or business".
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 04, 2017, 01:32:21 PM
Can't figure this out
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf (https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf) page 23 says that "the deduction is limited to 50 percent of the W-2 wages of the
taxpayer." Shouldn't if say the W-2 wages of the partnership?
The text of the bill says "50 percent of the W-2 wages with respect to the qualified trade or business".
Very simple, It's limited to 50% of the w2 wages earned by the tax payer related to this respective business.

W-2 would include all distributions from a sp ? And the salary amount from a 1065?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 04, 2017, 01:36:06 PM
is Guaranteed payments considered w-2 wages in order for a partnership to receive the deduction?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 04, 2017, 01:45:13 PM
The is a difference between the house and Senate bills. In the house bill you are correct that the lower pass through rate won't help if the taxpayers personal rate is lower, but the Senate Bill is a deduction and would help anyone.
The house bill has a lower rate of 9% in the first 75k of income from an active business owner if AGI is under 150k. So in the above example there would be a tax benefit from the House bill ($2,250)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 04, 2017, 01:55:38 PM
is Guaranteed payments considered w-2 wages in order for a partnership to receive the deduction?
?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 02:12:55 PM
?

IANAL but it would seem like no.
Text of bill says
Quote
“(A) IN GENERAL.—The term W-2 wages’ means, with respect to any person for any taxable year of such person, the amounts described in paragraphs (1) and ( 8 ) of section 6051(a) paid by such person with respect to employment of employees by such person during the calendar year ending during such taxable year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 02:30:43 PM
While we're on the topic, another thing to consider is will the Senate deduction be an itemized deduction? If so this will limit the benefit to small business owners as they will need to get over the standard deduction hurdle.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 04, 2017, 03:08:42 PM
is Guaranteed payments considered w-2 wages in order for a partnership to receive the deduction?
No they are definitely not w2 wages
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 03:20:18 PM
Can't figure this out
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf (https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.9.17%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf) page 23 says that "the deduction is limited to 50 percent of the W-2 wages of the
taxpayer." Shouldn't if say the W-2 wages of the partnership?
The text of the bill says "50 percent of the W-2 wages with respect to the qualified trade or business".
Very simple, It's limited to 50% of the w2 wages earned by the tax payer related to this respective business.

From the analysis going on it seems like people are reading the final bill as it's 50% of total wages paid by the partnership to any employee.

ETA: or perhaps 50% of the partners allocable share of total wages paid by the partnership.

ETA: They actually fixed it here (https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/11.14.17%20Chairman's%20Modified%20Mark.pdf) page 5, "limited to 50 percent of the taxpayer’s allocable or pro rata share of W-2 wages of the partnership or S corporation or 50 percent of the W-2 wages of the sole proprietorship."
So there we have it, you would include all wages paid by the partnership.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on December 04, 2017, 03:36:31 PM
does this need to go back to the house now to be approved?

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 03:37:56 PM
does this need to go back to the house now to be approved?

The House and Senate work together to come up with a single bill and both houses will have to pass that bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 04, 2017, 03:46:31 PM
The House and Senate work together to come up with a single bill and both houses will have to pass that bill.

So that means there's still some wild infinitesimal chance the final bill could actually have something in common with what was promised, right? Maybe it will actually simplify the code, or maybe it will actually be a boon for the middle class and not the wealthy.
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 03:55:21 PM
...Maybe it will actually simplify the code...
And I have a bridge to sell...

It's time for a constitutional amendment that will result in a shorter and simpler code.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 04, 2017, 03:56:30 PM
So that means there's still some wild infinitesimal chance the final bill could actually have something in common with what was promised, right? Maybe it will actually simplify the code, or maybe it will actually be a boon for the middle class and not the wealthy.
 ;D ;D ;D
LOL
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 04, 2017, 03:58:49 PM
And I have a bridge to sell...

It's time for a constitutional amendment that will result in a shorter and simpler code.
What does the constitution have to do with it? You mean they need a bill reforming the tax code (which they're doing) in a way that wipes the slate clean (which they're not, and would never find enough common ground to do).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 04, 2017, 04:46:40 PM
I have my personal issues with both tax bills, which include the fact that either one will cost me more money and also that they will worsen socio-economic inequalities which are already a huge problem in America. But an even bigger worry to me is that the Senate bill passed with the repeal for the individual mandate. The danger to the health insurance industry from this is systemic.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 05:26:35 PM
What does the constitution have to do with it? You mean they need a bill reforming the tax code (which they're doing) in a way that wipes the slate clean (which they're not, and would never find enough common ground to do).
I would love to see a constitutional amendment that would (1) require members of congress to pass a test proving familiarity with the content of any bill they vote on, and (2) limit the length of the bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
I would love to see a constitutional amendment that would (1) require members of congress to pass a test proving familiarity with the content of any bill they vote on, and (2) limit the length of the bill.
The issue is that each party only want that when they are out of power.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 05:30:10 PM
The issue is that each party only want that when they are out of power.
-1
None of them ever want that.

The tax code is the biggest source of power in Washington.

Politicians love the swamp.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 05:32:37 PM
-1
None of them ever want that.

The tax code is the biggest source of power in Washington.

Politicians love the swamp.
Of course. That is the Barone rule. All process arguments are disingenuous including this one.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 04, 2017, 07:05:55 PM
I have my personal issues with both tax bills, which include the fact that either one will cost me more money and also that they will worsen socio-economic inequalities which are already a huge problem in America. But an even bigger worry to me is that the Senate bill passed with the repeal for the individual mandate. The danger to the health insurance industry from this is systemic.
Curious what your set of facts are that will cause your taxes to go up under the bill?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 04, 2017, 07:18:37 PM
Curious what your set of facts are that will cause your taxes to go up under the bill?
If someone was making $1,000,000, and lost 50k in local and state taxes in NY or NJ, wouldn't their taxes go up?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 04, 2017, 07:28:38 PM
I would love to see a constitutional amendment that would (1) require members of congress to pass a test proving familiarity with the content of any bill they vote on, and (2) limit the length of the bill.
You wish. I learned a new word today. Kakistocracy. Accurately describes this current administration and Congress.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 04, 2017, 07:30:29 PM
Curious what your set of facts are that will cause your taxes to go up under the bill?

Having read the parts of the bill that are relevant to indivual filers (in collaboration with colleagues) and reworked my 2016 filing based on the changes. I dont want to give out personal financial details on a public forum (or PM...) so I'm not going to say what credits or brackets I was/will wasn't/won't be qualifying for. Capping the property tax deduction at $10k is not high enough for where I live for one thing
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 07:31:02 PM
You wish. I learned a new word today. Kakistocracy. Accurately describes this current administration and Congress.
I just learned a new word from you. Though I don't think it's limited in describing the CURRENT administration. But rather all administrations are a mirror image of יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 07:33:03 PM
Capping the property tax deduction at $10k is not high enough for where I live for one thing
There's a thread for that (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675.0).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 07:34:42 PM
But an even bigger worry to me is that the Senate bill passed with the repeal for the individual mandate. The danger to the health insurance industry from this is systemic.
The only way to possibly repeal Obamacare is to first get rid of the individual mandate and then take care of the rest. Otherwise any bill will be hampered by CBO scoring of how many people will be "forced" off insurance once they don't have a penalty for not having it even though it is free for them.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 04, 2017, 07:35:14 PM
There's a thread for that (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675.0).
@Dan Add a new pro to Cleveland. :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 04, 2017, 07:35:58 PM
There's a thread for that (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675.0).

Lol! But myincome would suffer much more than the RE tax savings OOT
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 04, 2017, 08:23:13 PM
If someone was making $1,000,000, and lost 50k in local and state taxes in NY or NJ, wouldn't their taxes go up?
The offset would 500k taxed at a lower rate
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 04, 2017, 08:33:45 PM
If someone was making $1,000,000, and lost 50k in local and state taxes in NY or NJ, wouldn't their taxes go up?
Chances are with that income you were subject to AMT which basically adds back a lot of your itemized deductions anyways
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 04, 2017, 08:47:11 PM
Chances are with that income you were subject to AMT which basically adds back a lot of your itemized deductions anyways

At $1M the AMT shouldn't be dominant unless you are claiming a ridiculous amount of deductions. It's more common to impact 200k-600k earners especially in key SALT states. Once you earn much more than that the 35% marginal rate beats out the 28% AMT rate
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 08:51:19 PM
At $1M the AMT shouldn't be dominant unless you are claiming a ridiculous amount of deductions. It's more common to impact 200k-600k earners especially in key SALT states. Once you earn much more than that the 35% marginal rate beats out the 28% AMT rate
Such as a large family
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 04, 2017, 08:59:33 PM
@Dan Add a new pro to Cleveland. :)
And for Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 04, 2017, 10:16:04 PM
The only way to possibly repeal Obamacare is to first get rid of the individual mandate and then take care of the rest. Otherwise any bill will be hampered by CBO scoring of how many people will be "forced" off insurance once they don't have a penalty for not having it even though it is free for them.
^this
Hit the nail on the head
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 04, 2017, 10:42:04 PM
^this
Hit the nail on the head
Been saying this for months. Source Avik Roy.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 05, 2017, 12:19:23 AM
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/senate-gop-accidentally-killed-all-corporate-tax-deductions.html

So apparently the Senate version as written (which was supposed to be a backup in case they can't agree on anything in conference - Ryan supposedly has the votes if necessary) is unusable. By putting back in corporate AMT, but failing to lower it from 20% (the same as the new basic corporate rate), they eliminated the effect of any corporate deductions. I think they'll come up with something in conference anyway, but this was a pretty embarrassing mistake.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 05, 2017, 11:37:32 AM
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/senate-gop-accidentally-killed-all-corporate-tax-deductions.html

So apparently the Senate version as written (which was supposed to be a backup in case they can't agree on anything in conference - Ryan supposedly has the votes if necessary) is unusable. By putting back in corporate AMT, but failing to lower it from 20% (the same as the new basic corporate rate), they eliminated the effect of any corporate deductions. I think they'll come up with something in conference anyway, but this was a pretty embarrassing mistake.
The whole tax plan is one big fat mistake for everyone, besides the super rich.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 05, 2017, 12:03:28 PM
The whole tax plan is one big fat mistake for everyone, besides the super rich.
As long as you stick to calling it a "plan" rather than "reform" I will refrain from going ballistic.

Here's a simple fix that might bring in a lot of revenue:

Disallow offsetting cash income with non-cash expenses.

Eliminate step-up in basis at death, and deem any change of ownership a taxable event.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 05, 2017, 12:33:03 PM




Here's a simple fix that might bring in a lot of revenue:

Disallow offsetting cash income with non-cash expenses.

Huh? I thought they pretty tight with this type of stuff

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 05, 2017, 01:15:07 PM
As long as you stick to calling it a "plan" rather than "reform" I will refrain from going ballistic.

call it deform
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 07, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
529 savings accounts for unborn children was removed from the bill.
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/12.4.17%20SxS%20Appendix%20-%20FINAL.pdf (https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/12.4.17%20SxS%20Appendix%20-%20FINAL.pdf) Page 2
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 07, 2017, 05:18:47 PM
Senate GOP tax writers would make the credit available for any children under 18, up from today's under-17 age limit. But it reverts to under 17 again in 2025, a year before the increase is set to expire under the bill.

Why did they do that? If all tax credits are due to expire in 2026, and the assumption is that congress will end up extending everything at that point, why would they lower the age to under 17 in 2025, which may get swept under the rug.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 07, 2017, 06:29:59 PM
Probably to make it work for the 1.5 trillion limit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 07, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
Why is it that for so many parts of the tax bill (for example the standard deduction, or tax rates) , there is a difference if you file single or married,
But when it comes to the property tax cap of $10,000 it is the same for both Single and Married filers. Why not give a higher amount for couples? (After all, for a single guy with a property, it is most probable that he will itemize, since his Standard deduction is just 12k, but for a married person whose standard deduction is 24k, its harder to itemize.)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 07, 2017, 07:35:21 PM
Why is it that for so many parts of the tax bill (for example the standard deduction, or tax rates) , there is a difference if you file single or married,
But when it comes to the property tax cap of $10,000 it is the same for both Single and Married filers. Why not give a higher amount for couples? (After all, for a single guy with a property, it is most probable that he will itemize, since his Standard deduction is just 12k, but for a married person whose standard deduction is 24k, its harder to itemize.)
AKA the marriage penalty, it's been part of the tax code for a long time in many different ways.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ADG on December 08, 2017, 09:58:05 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hated-tax-that-just-wont-die-1512734400
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 08, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hated-tax-that-just-wont-die-1512734400

It's a horrible provision but of course it will never go away. It doesn't hit rich people at all. It doesn't hit poor people at all. Just the ones in the middle who have no voice at all in this country (despite what the Dream Hoarders dude thinks) - people who work hard in good jobs and don't have enough time to advocate for themselves or enough money to hire advocates/lobbyists. The lowest hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 08, 2017, 11:51:12 AM
Also, don't believe the estimates you read in the papers. According to them you wouldn't owe a dime in AMT until you break $300K annual income. But I've seen many people get swept in after barely crossing $200k. Especially in the tri-state area, frum people tend to have a fair amount of exemptions and deductions that don't count under AMT and fall into the net while they're still earning just enough to balance the budget.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 11, 2017, 05:53:06 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/beijing-develops-plan-to-counter-trump-tax-overhaul-1513012363
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Eliyohu on December 11, 2017, 06:29:48 PM
Is there any accurate information about eitc, I couldn't find much information online some people are telling me it's going away and some people are telling me that it's getting doubled...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 11, 2017, 07:07:15 PM
Is there any accurate information about eitc, I couldn't find much information online some people are telling me it's going away and some people are telling me that it's getting doubled...
The eitc is not going anywhere.
The child tax credit may double-(but  $4,050 exemption per person is disappearing)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 11, 2017, 07:35:03 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/12/house-tax-bill-hits-mechanchim-hard-bmg-rallies-askanim-nationwide-in-defense-of-mechanchim-and-teachers-throughout-u-s.html

Now Agudah and Bmg wake up about qtr?
They should've been reading this thread a long time ago :) :)
Had they woken up earlier they would've had the House go along the senate not to get rid of qtr, before the house bill passed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yzj on December 11, 2017, 07:38:00 PM
BMG was working on QTR before the bill initially passed the House...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 11, 2017, 07:52:12 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/12/house-tax-bill-hits-mechanchim-hard-bmg-rallies-askanim-nationwide-in-defense-of-mechanchim-and-teachers-throughout-u-s.html

Now Agudah and Bmg wake up about qtr?
They should've been reading this thread a long time ago :) :)
Had they woken up earlier they would've had the House go along the senate not to get rid of qtr, before the house bill passed.
I can confirm that they were all over this before it was posted here. They were working behind the scenes as the article states and are now asking the public to reach out to their elected officials thru the Agudah advocacy website.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 11, 2017, 08:26:16 PM
 Why weren't they working on getting private school education to count as charity?
Why are they only concerned about 529 plans for the rich?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 11, 2017, 08:49:49 PM
Why weren't they working on getting private school education to count as charity?
I assume you mean that it should be deductible - nothing to do with charity. And I agree, it would do so much more for the community as a whole. However, I would point out 2 things here. First of all, no one is going to be ruined by the bill not including the tuition deduction - after all, it's not in the current tax code. But there are people that will be completely ruined by the removal of the QTR exemption. And second of all, it's a much bigger ask to add a deduction that doesn't exist today than it is to not change a current exemption.
Why are they only concerned about 529 plans for the rich?
Who said BMG/Agudah were pushing for the change to 529's? It's not mentioned in the article.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 11, 2017, 09:20:11 PM
Getting private school tuition to be deductible would be huge for everyone.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yzj on December 11, 2017, 09:52:18 PM
Getting private school tuition to be deductible would be huge for everyone.

It was too big of a lift and got crossed out of the final bill at the last moment. QTR affects all tuition paying parents as well. If teachers kids receiving free tuition in the school were to be taxed and counted as income for assistance programs, salaries would have to rise to make it worthwhile for skilled teachers to continue teaching. Tuition would have to rise fairly dramatically to pay for the increase in salary costs.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 11, 2017, 10:45:12 PM
Why weren't they working on getting private school education to count as charity?

Who said they weren't
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 12, 2017, 02:18:58 AM
Who said they weren't
I'm not saying they weren't, but only now are they asking to reach out to Senators and Congressmen.

If only they would've put it out in the news for hundreds to call Congressmen and Senators to let Private tuition count as a charity deduction, it wouldn't have gotten crossed out at the last night.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 12, 2017, 02:45:04 AM
People have moved on the the next bit of news these days. I doubt that hundreds of people are busy calling their local congressmen and senators regarding the tax bill lately.

I'm sure if we had a few hundred people making the rounds calling up various senators to put tuition-charity back in, it would make an impression even now to get it in.  In fact with the senate being 52-48 (or soon to possibly be 51-49) if Moore looses in Alabama, and with Senator Corker against the tax bill, all it takes is one or 2 senators to be sympathetic, and to insist on it being added back before voting on the tax bill once it comes back from committee, and it will pass.
For example, Susan Collins from Maine got plenty of concessions on the day they voted, because she threatened that if you don't give me X, Y, Z you don't have my vote.

So all it takes, is one Senator to insist on something and he will get it, as long as they are truly afraid to lose his vote.

For the record, even though they are not from my state, I recently picked up the phone and contacted the offices of Senator Rubio and Lee, to thank them for trying to get more child tax credit, as well as to suggest to them to insist that they get their way in the final bill, and to threaten the Senate that they will vote no, if they don't get their way, just like Senators, Collins, Johnson, and others got major concessions on the last day, since they did a good job and were convincing that they were going to vote no.
The problem with Rubio/Lee was that nobody feared that they would vote no on the tax bill, if they didn't get their way with the child tax credit, so they didn't get it.

So if Agudah can target a few senators who are sympathetic to tuition/charity deduction, and then tell us which senators to call, im sure if their secretaries in their various offices gets hundreds of calls a day for the next 2 weeks until they vote again it will make an impact.

Now is the time to push, or forever lose.....
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 12, 2017, 08:54:23 AM
Getting private school tuition to be deductible would be huge for everyone.
Which is why SCOTUS nominations are really what matters in a presidential election.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 12, 2017, 09:37:31 AM
Which is why SCOTUS nominations are really what matters in a presidential election.
What does one have to do with the other?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 12, 2017, 09:39:59 AM
What does one have to do with the other?
Let me spoonfeed it:

Any such provision is likely to be challenged and end up in front of the SCOTUS.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 12, 2017, 09:42:13 AM
Let me spoonfeed it:

Any such provision is likely to be challenged and end up in front of the SCOTUS.
On what basis? It would be religion neutral.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 12, 2017, 10:46:24 AM
On what basis? It would be religion neutral.
+1
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 12, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
On the other hand, the  big argument for deductibility is that it should be similar to the way others pay for education through property taxes. Once SALT is not deductible that argument disappears.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 12, 2017, 12:00:42 PM
On what basis? It would be religion neutral.
IDK. I'm not a constitutional law expert. But I find it very hard to believe that if it were a left leaning court, the libs wouldn't find something to bring up and have it struck down by the SCOTUS at some point.

How about it favoring Religious schools over other private schools?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 12, 2017, 12:02:11 PM



How about it favoring Religious schools over other private schools?
It shouldn't
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 12, 2017, 12:07:15 PM
It shouldn't
Does the provision say that ANY Private school tuition is to be considered a charitable contribution?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 12, 2017, 12:13:19 PM
Does the provision say that ANY Private school tuition is to be considered a charitable contribution?
+1. I think I got a little thrown off because the comment you quoted from Dan said 'private school tuition'. In reality, the portion of the senate bill that was written and then crossed out says "DEDUCTION FOR TUITION PAYMENTS FOR QUALIFIED RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION". Also, it was 25% of tuition, not the full amount.

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rXqXuQfYbRas/v0
(page 70)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 12, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
At this point, how likely is it that the 24k standard deduction will be on the final bill?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on December 12, 2017, 10:35:53 PM
On what basis? It would be religion neutral.
they'd probably try the same fallacy they tried (sometimes successfully) against vouchers (and ESAs) that if a federal deduction ends up in religious coffers that somehow "breaches the wall of separation of church and state".
No matter that the money never entered government hands in the first place...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 12, 2017, 10:45:02 PM
they'd probably try the same fallacy they tried (sometimes successfully) against vouchers (and ESAs) that if a federal deduction ends up in religious coffers that somehow "breaches the wall of separation of church and state".
No matter that the money never entered government hands in the first place...
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 12, 2017, 11:16:42 PM
At this point, how likely is it that the 24k standard deduction will be on the final bill?


Very much so.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 12, 2017, 11:25:36 PM
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution
You and I know that, but liberal activist judges might find a way to argue differently.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 12, 2017, 11:38:29 PM
Very much so.
thanks, I'm looking into setting up and funding a DAF based on that assumption.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 12, 2017, 11:44:46 PM
thanks, I'm looking into setting up and funding a DAF based on that assumption.
Can you elaborate, why you would look to set up a Donor Advised Fund based on the 24,000? What will you gain whether its 12,000 or 24,000?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 12, 2017, 11:49:25 PM
Can you elaborate, why you would look to set up a Donor Advised Fund based on the 24,000? What will you gain whether its 12,000 or 24,000?

I assume he means that due to the 24k floor and reduced deductions he wont itemize in 2018 so he wants to "pre pay" his 2018 charitable contributions in 2017.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 12, 2017, 11:56:13 PM
Can you elaborate, why you would look to set up a Donor Advised Fund based on the 24,000? What will you gain whether its 12,000 or 24,000?
simple, my itemized deductions not including charity= 12-14k, so next year I would have to give 12k+ in charity in order to start capturing any tax benefit on my charity.
This year I'm still itemizing so if I load an additional year or so worth of charity to a DAF I would get the benefit right back in a few months at tax time (25% back).

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 12, 2017, 11:57:16 PM
I assume he means that due to the 24k floor and reduced deductions he wont itemize in 2018 so he wants to "pre pay" his 2018 charitable contributions in 2017.
exactly. It's almost a use it or lose it situation, and I'm thinking of loading more than a years worth...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 12:02:20 AM
For anyone else who is interested, especially Lakewood residents, I found a good option with https://thedonorsfund.org , a few people recommended them to me.
They also have an option to setup an account to get"certificates" either printed booklets or blank amounts, so you can easily use them for small amounts like meshulachim etc...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 12:04:52 AM
For anyone else who is interested, especially Lakewood residents, I found a good option with https://thedonorsfund.org , a few people recommended them to me.
They also have an option to setup an account to get"certificates" either printed booklets or blank amounts, so you can easily use them for small amounts like meshulachim etc...
They work with anyone, but I think around Lakewood everyone is familiar with their certificates and now how to redeem them, so it's no hassle
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 12:33:40 AM
simple, my itemized deductions not including charity= 12-14k, so next year I would have to give 12k+ in charity in order to start capturing any tax benefit on my charity.
This year I'm still itemizing so if I load an additional year or so worth of charity to a DAF I would get the benefit right back in a few months at tax time (25% back).

Am I missing something?
Sounds right.
So suppose someone gives 10k, you will save 2500 if you are in the 25% bracket.

How does it work? Lets say you give them 10k. Which charities can you then give the 10k to?
What fee do they charge for you giving them 10k to distribute? (If anything they should pay you, since they can invest your money until you tell them where to send it.)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 12:34:31 AM
For anyone else who is interested, especially Lakewood residents, I found a good option with https://thedonorsfund.org , a few people recommended them to me.
They also have an option to setup an account to get"certificates" either printed booklets or blank amounts, so you can easily use them for small amounts like meshulachim etc...

So the printed booklets have a 3% or 4% fee for the donor, but do they they give the full amount to the meshulach when he redeems it, or do they take a cut there also?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 13, 2017, 01:05:09 AM
So the printed booklets have a 3% or 4% fee for the donor, but do they they give the full amount to the meshulach when he redeems it, or do they take a cut there also?
Haven't looked at what other funds charge, but they seem to be charging 50bps per month on first $500k in assets (and lower on additional assets), and then 3%-4% if you use the certificates. Sounds quite lucrative.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gozalim on December 13, 2017, 01:28:06 AM
Haven't looked at what other funds charge, but they seem to be charging 50bps per month on first $500k in assets (and lower on additional assets), and then 3%-4% if you use the certificates. Sounds quite lucrative.
won't some banks let you create your own DAF for a reasonable minimum deposit without all those cuts?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 01:29:43 AM
won't some banks let you create your own DAF for a reasonable minimum deposit without all those cuts?

Fidelity and Vanguard have them but charge 60bps, and no check writing to meshulachim.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 06:59:28 AM
They are the only ones I found that have the certificate program. I'm looking into the premium account with 3% fee. The way it works is that they charge that fee at the time of redemption and you can decide if you pay the full 3 or split it 1-2 or 2-1 with the charity/meshulach.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 07:12:26 AM
 
Sounds right.
So suppose someone gives 10k, you will save 2500 if you are in the 25% bracket.

How does it work? Lets say you give them 10k. Which charities can you then give the 10k to?
What fee do they charge for you giving them 10k to distribute? (If anything they should pay you, since they can invest your money until you tell them where to send it.)
for the DAF account you let them know where to send funds to any IRS approved charity.
I think the certificate accounts are just another "method of advising" them how to distribute your funds.
Since the original donation is considered irrevocable and you don't really own the funds anymore, it is referred to as "advising".
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 02:13:25 PM
There is another great strategy if you want to fund a DAF. You are allowed to donate stocks, and the donation is valued at the current market rate. This actually results in a double benefit because you dont pay any cap gains that you may have had.
For example, say you bought $5k AAPL a year ago and it is now worth $10k, when you fund the DAF with these shares you save on the $5k cap gains, on top of the $10k charity deduction you are getting. A variation of this strategy would be, even if you wanted to retain your AAPL position, you can essentially donate the shares, purchase new shares at the same time to replace them and now your position has a new higher cost basis, for your eventual sale thereby saving you on future cap gains.
I am thinking of doing this with any stock position that I currently have high percentage gains, in order to reset the cost basis and maximize the charity deduction at the same time.
I contacted The Donors Fund and they confirmed they can accept stocks as long as they arent penny stocks or unlisted stocks, but prefer it to be valued at least $10k but may be negotiable.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 06:02:41 PM
Sorry I forgot to point out one important point, the below would only work with long term cap gains and not for short term cap gains (stocks must have been purchased prior to 2017).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 06:08:09 PM
Sorry I forgot to point out one important point, the below would only work with long term cap gains and not for short term cap gains (stocks must have been purchased prior to 2017).
More specifically held for 366 days or more, so if they were purchased at the end of December 2016 you still might have to wait.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 13, 2017, 07:21:05 PM
You can donate appreciated stock directly to a charitable organization  - you don't need a DAF for that.

It looks like QTR will NOT be repealed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Mikeoracle on December 13, 2017, 08:05:10 PM
You can donate appreciated stock directly to a charitable organization  - you don't need a DAF for that.
true but that's only if you want to make a donation that big to one charity now.
The idea is that this would give flexibility for any size donations and pre load for next year now to capture the charity deduction benefit this year for those that will lose it in the coming years
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 08:39:21 PM
It looks like QTR will NOT be repealed.
And I guess if agudah would've been proactive with the tuition/charity and had hundreds calling for the past few weeks, we possibly could've gotten it into the bill as well.

But a guess its time for me to stop crying about lost causes
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 13, 2017, 08:44:59 PM
And I guess if agudah would've been proactive with the tuition/charity and had hundreds calling for the past few weeks, we possibly could've gotten it into the bill as well.

But a guess its time for me to stop crying about lost causes
They're not comparable - period.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 08:51:27 PM
I know.....

Once this tax bill passes, can Congress decide to pass a bill next year or the year after to allow tuition to count as charity? Or, in order for that to ever pass, it would've needed to have been passed with this tax bill?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 08:55:34 PM
Technically my question applies to anything. Can Congress decide to pass any tax law next year after this overhall?

If yes, then why was this pressure to fit it into 1.5 billion? They could've just left some good parts out, and then passed it next year as separate legislation. No?

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 08:56:25 PM
Technically my question applies to anything. Can Congress decide to pass any tax law next year after this overhall?

If yes, then why was this pressure to fit it into 1.5 billion? They could've just left some good parts out, and then passed it next year as separate legislation. No?

They would need 60 votes in the senate
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 13, 2017, 08:56:43 PM
Seems like they changed the shared position of the house and senate bills on SALT. It's now all deductible, but only to a max of 10k for state, local and property combined.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 13, 2017, 08:57:15 PM
They would need 60 votes in the senate
Why? It would work with any budget reconciliation, same as this year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 08:58:16 PM
Why? It would work with any budget reconciliation, same as this year.
Technically my question applies to anything. Can Congress decide to pass any tax law next year after this overhall?

If yes, then why was this pressure to fit it into 1.5 billion? They could've just left some good parts out, and then passed it next year as separate legislation. No?


Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 13, 2017, 09:01:00 PM
Seems like they changed the shared position of the house and senate bills on SALT. It's now all deductible, but only to a max of 10k for state, local and property combined.

According to the Wall Street Journal it's still in play and it might be that you can choose one or the other but can't combine both.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 09:01:13 PM

Funny.
I didn't mean what you interpreted in red.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 09:02:02 PM
Any bill that passes Congress needs 60? Why?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on December 13, 2017, 09:49:40 PM
Any bill that passes Congress needs 60? Why?
To overcome a filibuster.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 13, 2017, 10:21:14 PM
According to the Wall Street Journal it's still in play and it might be that you can choose one or the other but can't combine both.
Didn't see that, but it personally makes no difference to me. Either way it's a significant step up for me compared to the previous versions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 13, 2017, 10:44:53 PM
How is it a step up? Both versions in the house and senate passed with 10k deduction.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 13, 2017, 10:51:09 PM
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

That's how the establishment clause has been interpreted for quite some time. And recognized by the supreme court.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gingyguy on December 13, 2017, 11:13:32 PM
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2017/12/update-from-bmg-capitol-hill-reports-serious-threat-to-mechanchim-and-mosdos-removed-from-gop-tax-deal-qualified-tuition-benefit-protected.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 13, 2017, 11:26:19 PM
That's how the establishment clause has been interpreted for quite some time. And recognized by the supreme court.
Absolutely not. See Grumet v board of ed of KJ
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: alexk. on December 13, 2017, 11:26:40 PM
Not sure if this was brought up, as  I have been casually following this thread... I met with my accountant today and if you normally pay estimated state taxes for 2017 after the year is over, you should pay it before 12/31 this year. Even though it is for tax year 2017, the deduction goes on when it is received. Paying now can save you some money
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 14, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
How is it a step up? Both versions in the house and senate passed with 10k deduction.
Because I don't pay 10k in property tax, but I do pay more than that in state and local income tax. The House and Senate versions didn't allow for any state and local income tax deduction. It's being reported that the final bill does.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 12:23:21 AM
Because I don't pay 10k in property tax, but I do pay more than that in state and local income tax. The House and Senate versions didn't allow for any state and local income tax deduction. It's being reported that the final bill does.
true
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 12:27:14 AM
Not sure if this was brought up, as  I have been casually following this thread... I met with my accountant today and if you normally pay estimated state taxes for 2017 after the year is over, you should pay it before 12/31 this year. Even though it is for tax year 2017, the deduction goes on when it is received. Paying now can save you some money
I think it was brought up.
But didn't someone say that whatever you deduct and helps you on your 2017 tax return, will need to end on on your 2018 tax return as income on line 10?
10 ----Taxable refunds, credits, or offsets of state and local income taxes .

So do you gain?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 14, 2017, 12:33:33 AM
Abi they can't raise the corporate tax to 22% to remove the limit on SALT and property taxes. As if the cut from 35% is not enough for the corporations. Only the little guys who have to carefully count every dollar in the grocery store have to deal with such caps on their deductions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 12:36:52 AM
Abi they can't raise the corporate tax to 22% to remove the limit on SALT and property taxes. As if the cut from 35% is not enough for the corporations. Only the little guys who have to carefully count every dollar in the grocery store have to deal with such caps on their deductions.

The debate around the SALT deduction is not a budget limitation, it's about the low tax states not having to subsidize the high tax ones.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 12:36:57 AM
Technically my question applies to anything. Can Congress decide to pass any tax law next year after this overhall?

If yes, then why was this pressure to fit it into 1.5 billion? They could've just left some good parts out, and then passed it next year as separate legislation. No?
They may yet do more
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 12:39:07 AM
I think it was brought up.
But didn't someone say that whatever you deduct and helps you on your 2017 tax return, will need to end on on your 2018 tax return as income on line 10?
10 ----Taxable refunds, credits, or offsets of state and local income taxes .

So do you gain?
That is only if you will get it refunded.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 14, 2017, 12:39:35 AM
The debate around the SALT deduction is not a budget limitation, it's about the low tax states not having to subsidize the high tax ones.
Do you think that these high tax states will lower their rates? No. So who gets stuck? The poor little guy.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 12:44:39 AM
Do you think that these high tax states will lower their rates? No. So who gets stuck? The poor little guy.

Not sure I understand what your saying. If the federal govt needs $100 and each state should give $2, but the federal govt says that since NY spends $ (for NY residents benefit) like drunken sailors they only need to pay 1.25, then when Texas has to pay 2.25 they are subsidizing NY's roads etc.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 12:47:38 AM
Not sure I understand what your saying. If the federal govt needs $100 and each state should give $2, but the federal govt says that since NY spends $ (for NY residents benefit) like drunken sailors they only need to pay 1.25, then when Texas has to pay 2.25 they are subsidizing NY's roads etc.
What percent of tax received is paid by high tax states?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 12:53:55 AM
What percent of tax received is paid by high tax states?

How is that relevant. Sure NY and CA have richer people than Alabama.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 12:59:31 AM
That is only if you will get it refunded.
Can you elaborate what that means?
You only need to report the next year if you got a refund from the state?
Meaning if you paid the state 50k because you owed them 50k, and therefore got no refund, there is no need to put anything the next your on line 10 of the 1040?
You only put something on line 10, if you owed the state 49k, but paid them 50k, so you get $1000 refund. That $1000 ends up on line 10 but nothing more?

This idea of prepaying property tax or state tax in 2017 still makes sense? Because if you overpay alot, wont that cause you to get a state refund, which in turn will need to end up on line 10 of your 2018 tax return? Or what am i missing?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 14, 2017, 08:23:35 AM
Can you elaborate what that means?
You only need to report the next year if you got a refund from the state?
Meaning if you paid the state 50k because you owed them 50k, and therefore got no refund, there is no need to put anything the next your on line 10 of the 1040?
You only put something on line 10, if you owed the state 49k, but paid them 50k, so you get $1000 refund. That $1000 ends up on line 10 but nothing more?
Correct, under the tax benefit rule, an expense which was deducted in one year, and was reimbursed in a subsequent years is taxed in year it was reversed.
https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tax+benefit+rule
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 14, 2017, 08:45:09 AM
It might be worthwhile to pay even if you'll get the money refunded. Say for example, you're in 15% bracket for 2017, but under new law you'll be in 12% bracket. State taxes which you pay now save you 15%, but when you pick up the refund as income next year, it'll be taxed at 12%. This depends on your exact tax situation, but for many people there could be a scenario where it would save them money.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 09:11:09 AM
How is that relevant. Sure NY and CA have richer people than Alabama.
How is THAT relevant? The fact is that it is the high tax states subsidizing the low tax ones not the other way around. So the SALT deduction makes them subsidized less? They are still subsidized not subsidizing.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 09:25:09 AM
How is THAT relevant? The fact is that it is the high tax states subsidizing the low tax ones not the other way around. So the SALT deduction makes them subsidized less? They are still subsidized not subsidizing.
I think you're confusing state income tax vs total state tax burden. I don't think Texas gets back much less per federal tax dollar sent than NY, but Texas spends less per capita and also taxes in other ways which aren't captured in the current deduction. Of course low-income States will get back more from the Federal govt but I don't see that as correlated with their state income tax rate.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 09:39:16 AM
I think you're confusing state income tax vs total state tax burden. I don't think Texas gets back much less per federal tax dollar sent than NY, but Texas spends less per capita and also taxes in other ways which aren't captured in the current deduction. Of course low-income States will get back more from the Federal govt but I don't see that as correlated with their state income tax rate.

Bottom line the low tax states are subsidized by the high tax states not the other way around. Are there some that are the opposite? sure, but no tax plan doesn't have those who fall through the cracks. Why are you differentiating between methods of taxation?

These are the most recent numbers I found quickly but there may be better out there.
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fedspend_per_taxesbystate-20071009.pdf
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 14, 2017, 09:50:01 AM
Bottom line the low tax states are subsidized by the high tax states not the other way around. Are there some that are the opposite? sure, but no tax plan doesn't have those who fall through the cracks. Why are you differentiating between methods of taxation?

These are the most recent numbers I found quickly but there may be better out there.
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fedspend_per_taxesbystate-20071009.pdf
Wow, that's actually pretty remarkable - how well correlated lower state tax burden seems to be to high federal spending per federal tax dollar (and vice versa). I'm curious to see other factors layered on (population, state spending patterns, etc.)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 09:53:09 AM
Wow, that's actually pretty remarkable - how well correlated lower state tax burden seems to be to high federal spending per federal tax dollar (and vice versa). I'm curious to see other factors layered on (population, state spending patterns, etc.)
There are reasons for the correlation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 14, 2017, 09:57:16 AM
There are reasons for the correlation.
Like I said, I'd be interested to see the rest of the data - it's pretty clear that one doesn't cause the other. Doesn't make the contrast any less stark.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 09:58:25 AM
Bottom line the low tax states are subsidized by the high tax states not the other way around. Are there some that are the opposite? sure, but no tax plan doesn't have those who fall through the cracks. Why are you differentiating between methods of taxation?

These are the most recent numbers I found quickly but there may be better out there.
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fedspend_per_taxesbystate-20071009.pdf
I don't believe that's true, it's not a state thing it's an individual thing. We all know that our system of tax and entitlements transfers wealth from the rich to the poor, that is not our discussion here. If a state happens to have more poor people then they will get more federal dollars but that's not because their state is taxing their residents less. AL gets back more than NJ because it has more poor people, nothing to do with their state tax rate.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 10:01:37 AM
I don't believe that's true, it's not a state thing it's an individual thing. We all know that our system of tax and entitlements transfers wealth from the rich to the poor, that is not our discussion here. If a state happens to have more poor people then they will get more federal dollars but that's not because their state is taxing their residents less. AL gets back more than NJ because it has more poor people, nothing to do with their state tax rate.

You are picking and choosing what data to include. The fact is that NY is subsidizing Alabama and not the other way around. NY's tax rates are also progressive you know?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 14, 2017, 10:02:08 AM
I don't believe that's true, it's not a state thing it's an individual thing. We all know that our system of tax and entitlements transfers wealth from the rich to the poor, that is not our discussion here. If a state happens to have more poor people then they will get more federal dollars but that's not because their state is taxing their residents less. AL gets back more than NJ because it has more poor people, nothing to do with their state tax rate.
You're taking a very specific view of how the federal budget should be divide up the portion of its funding received from individual income taxes and then stating that the SALT deduction must be removed because of that view. Not everyone agrees with that view.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 10:06:58 AM
You're taking a very specific view of how the federal budget should be divide up the portion of its funding received from individual income taxes and then stating that the SALT deduction must be removed because of that view. Not everyone agrees with that view.
Exactly. Specifically, it is conservatives who don't agree with that view. If you believe that the rich should not be subsidizing the poor then don't use that as an argument. That is what you are doing to justify a supposedly conservative plan. (Of course the Dems are doing the same in the opposite direction)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 10:08:01 AM
You are picking and choosing what data to include. The fact is that NY is subsidizing Alabama and not the other way around. NY's tax rates are also progressive you know?
Like I said, it has nothing to do with NY State. Rich people in AL subsidize poor people in NY too. It's the rich people subsidizing poor people.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mercaz1 on December 14, 2017, 10:09:20 AM
im not an accountant but I would assume that if the NYers can't deduct their local taxes than the local government will have to figure out a way to alleviate the burden on the citizens of that state
if that means lowering income tax but raising sales tax which is how I think they will end up going.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 10:11:51 AM
Like I said, it has nothing to do with NY State. Rich people in AL subsidize poor people in NY too. It's the rich people subsidizing poor people.
They are also the ones who take the itemized deduction for SALT and definitely at higher amounts. The poor do not pay SALT either. They rent and are below state income tax thresholds as well.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 10:12:07 AM
You're taking a very specific view of how the federal budget should be divide up the portion of its funding received from individual income taxes and then stating that the SALT deduction must be removed because of that view. Not everyone agrees with that view.
The way I see it, a rich person in Texas is subsidizing another rich guy in New York who takes the deduction.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 10:14:25 AM
They are also the ones who take the itemized deduction for SALT and definitely at higher amounts. The poor do not pay SALT either. They rent and are below state income tax thresholds as well.
You're furthering my point, the rich guy in New York is paying less federal taxes and the rich people in Texas have to make that up even though they got absolutely no benefit from New York income taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 14, 2017, 02:20:20 PM
I think it was brought up.
But didn't someone say that whatever you deduct and helps you on your 2017 tax return, will need to end on on your 2018 tax return as income on line 10?
10 ----Taxable refunds, credits, or offsets of state and local income taxes .

So do you gain?
If you will be in a lower tax bracket in 2018 you can overpay in 2017 get the deduction in 2017 ask for a refund  and pay the tax on it in 2018 at a lower rate. Depending on the drop of your bracket that could be a quick return on your money.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 14, 2017, 02:48:50 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.812d7650e8ff
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 14, 2017, 02:58:55 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.812d7650e8ff
Wow Rubio has thrown down the gauntlet. Do they call his bluff?
Honestly it would benefit many lower income earners and would be great PR for the Republicans. CNN and MSNBC will have a harder time ripping the tax plan.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 03:39:04 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.812d7650e8ff

Not claiming the whole credit :) but I did email him the other day to thank him for pushing for this and urging him to keep on fighting.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:16:19 PM
Bottom line the low tax states are subsidized by the high tax states not the other way around. Are there some that are the opposite? sure, but no tax plan doesn't have those who fall through the cracks. Why are you differentiating between methods of taxation?

These are the most recent numbers I found quickly but there may be better out there.
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fedspend_per_taxesbystate-20071009.pdf
These numbers are worthless. Texas gets more money for border security and other states "get" more money because Lockheed Martin is located there. Point being that most of the money that the government spends in any state is not used specifically for that state making the whole idea of "donor states" moot.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:20:11 PM
The issue with the SALT deduction is that when California increases their taxes they know that a big chunk of it is being subsidized by the Federal government and the same thing the other way, when senators and congressmen from california vote to increase federal taxes, they know that they won't pay a lot of it because they take major SALT deductions.
Ben Shapiro explains it very well here http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html (http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 04:22:06 PM
These numbers are worthless. Texas gets more money for border security and other states "get" more money because Lockheed Martin is located there. Point being that most of the money that the government spends in any state is not used specifically for that state making the whole idea of "donor states" moot.
Agreed. I was using his metric
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 14, 2017, 04:22:51 PM
The issue with the SALT deduction is that when California increases their taxes they know that a big chunk of it is being subsidized by the Federal government and the same thing the other way, when senators and congressmen from california vote to increase federal taxes, they know that they won't pay a lot of it because they take major SALT deductions.
Ben Shapiro explains it very well here http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html (http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html)
This is more like it
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 04:30:57 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.812d7650e8ff
Senator Lee needs to be called as well to team up with Rubio and also threaten to vote no. If they are united, they will have to give them what they want, since they need the 2 votes.

The last thing Rubio wants is to vote no, and then they use Pence to break the tie in the Senate. Then Rubio will be ridiculed by the Republicans forever for voting no, and he will never get big corporate donations.
But if he has Lee with him, they will only have 49 votes, so they will give in to him, and will make adjustments to get him on board.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:35:20 PM
Senator Lee needs to be called as well to team up with Rubio and also threaten to vote no. If they are united, they will have to give them what they want, since they need the 2 votes.

The last thing Rubio wants is to vote no, and then they use Pence to break the tie in the Senate. Then Rubio will be ridiculed by the Republicans forever for voting no, and he will never get big corporate donations.
But if he has Lee with him, they will only have 49 votes, so they will give in to him, and will make adjustments to get him on board.
Great idea, lets push everyone to fight for something else so we end up where we did with healthcare. Why can't anyone take a step back and say "this is the right thing to do and it's the best thing for our country" even if it doesn't work perfectly to your current needs, instead of looking at it like a socialist "how much more can I get out of the government"
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 04:40:07 PM
The issue with the SALT deduction is that when California increases their taxes they know that a big chunk of it is being subsidized by the Federal government and the same thing the other way, when senators and congressmen from california vote to increase federal taxes, they know that they won't pay a lot of it because they take major SALT deductions.
Ben Shapiro explains it very well here http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html (http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/california-forum/article189600289.html)
How does a salt deduction help an increase in federal taxes? If the federal rates increase so the salt deduction is worth slightly more but they're paying more taxes on the rest of their income.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: syp5 on December 14, 2017, 04:40:23 PM
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Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 04:43:32 PM
Great idea, lets push everyone to fight for something else so we end up where we did with healthcare. Why can't anyone take a step back and say "this is the right thing to do and it's the best thing for our country" even if it doesn't work perfectly to your current needs, instead of looking at it like a socialist "how much more can I get out of the government"
Because the concessions Senator Collins gets from them is fine, and what Senator Johnson gets for threatening is fine, but Rubio is not allowed to stand up for families and kids?? Only other Senators are allowed to threaten and be taken seriously?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:44:57 PM
How does a salt deduction help an increase in federal taxes? If the federal rates increase so the salt deduction is worth slightly more but they're paying more taxes on the rest of their income.
Correct. It's partially subsidized, which makes politicians more likely to raise taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 04:48:36 PM
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Im pro helping middle income families even more so.

Who wants to argue that it doesn't cost a lot more then $2000 to raise a child each year?  So if he wants to expand it for parents making 60k or 90k, im all for it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:51:11 PM
Because the concessions Senator Collins gets from them is fine, and what Senator Johnson gets for threatening is fine, but Rubio is not allowed to stand up for families and kids?? Only other Senators are allowed to threaten and be taken seriously?
The reason we end up with a convoluted law is because of senators who threaten to screw the country because of something petty. If all senators would agree to vote for the tax plan because it's overall good for us then we can have civilized discussions about how to tweak it to make it better. If everyone was like Collins and Johnson then we'll end up the same way we did with healthcare - Royally Screwed because no one is willing to give in. The answer is not to threaten to ruin an overall good bill because of a few small details.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
Who wants to argue that it doesn't cost a lot more then $2000 to raise a child each year?
That's completely irrelevant to this conversation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 04:53:08 PM
The reason we end up with a convoluted law is because of senators who threaten to screw the country because of something petty. If all senators would agree to vote for the tax plan because it's overall good for us then we can have civilized discussions about how to tweak it to make it better. If everyone was like Collins and Johnson then we'll end up the same way we did with healthcare - Royally Screwed because no one is willing to give in. The answer is not to threaten to ruin an overall good bill because of a few small details.
Its not fair that Collins or Johnson should be able to run around and show their constituents what they managed to get added in, but not Rubio.
If the only way they got to add things in, was by threatening, then unfortunately Rubio needs to use that Avenue as well.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 04:56:29 PM
The reason we end up with a convoluted law is because of senators who threaten to screw the country because of something petty. If all senators would agree to vote for the tax plan because it's overall good for us then we can have civilized discussions about how to tweak it to make it better. If everyone was like Collins and Johnson then we'll end up the same way we did with healthcare - Royally Screwed because no one is willing to give in. The answer is not to threaten to ruin an overall good bill because of a few small details.
What makes you think they think it is a good bill? The only reason they support a bad bill is because they get something.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 14, 2017, 04:56:54 PM
Correct. It's partially subsidized, which makes politicians more likely to raise taxes.
If someone has taxable income of 100k, a salt deduction of 15K, and federal rates rise by 2%, then he'll owe an extra 2k less 15k*2%= 300 for a total of 1.7k additional tax. So you're saying that Dianne Feinstein will say that we're increasing your taxes by $2,000 but that's okay because your salt deduction is worth an additional 300.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:57:16 PM
Its not fair that Collins or Johnson should be able to run around and show their constituents what they managed to get added in, but not Rubio.
You're right so instead no one should. We should just kill the whole tax cut bill in the name of fair bragging rights. TBH if i were in either of their states I would NOT be happy with what their doing. I am all for everyone having civilized discussions but to throw in the towel just because YOUR tax cutout was taken away or any other relatively minor detail is very childish.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 04:58:44 PM
If someone has taxable income of 100k, a salt deduction of 15K, and federal rates rise by 2%, then he'll owe an extra 2k less 15k*2%= 300 for a total of 1.7k additional tax. So you're saying that Dianne Feinstein will say that we're increasing your taxes by $2,000 but that's okay because your salt deduction is worth an additional 300.
It makes it easier to push the tax increase.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 05:00:18 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.812d7650e8ff

I called senator Lee as well today to encourage him to expand child tax credit. In the article above it says that Lee is undecided whether to support the bill.
When I called I was told the same thing that he is unsure.

If anyone wants to call..

https://www.lee.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/salt-lake-city-office
https://www.lee.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/washington-d-c-office
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 05:04:01 PM
What makes you think they think it is a good bill? The only reason they support a bad bill is because they get something.
I believe that cutting taxes, removing deductions, and simplifying the tax code is a good thing. If you disagree, I'd like to hear why.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
I believe that cutting taxes, removing deductions, and simplifying the tax code is a good thing. If you disagree, I'd like to hear why.
My point was they are more likely to vote for a bad bill if they get something than to kill a good bill because they didn't.

With what you said I agree with if it helps the low/middle income the most. Trying to sell this as a middle working class tax cut is a joke.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 05:13:39 PM
My point was they are more likely to vote for a bad bill if they get something than to kill a good bill because they didn't.

With what you said I agree with if it helps the low/middle income the most. Trying to sell this as a middle working class tax cut is a joke.
So are you agreeing with me that this is an overall good bill?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 05:17:54 PM
So are you agreeing with me that this is an overall good bill?
No because the low/middle income will benefit the least from this bill. My taxes will go up and I would be ok with that if I thought it would go to the low/middle income class.

Do you believe those making 1mm+ a year need a tax break as much as someone making 50K?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 05:30:14 PM
No because the low/middle income will benefit the least from this bill. My taxes will go up and I would be ok with that if I thought it would go to the low/middle income class.

Do you believe those making 1mm+ a year need a tax break as much as someone making 50K?
I believe that everyone should be able to keep as much of their hard earned money as possible even if they're rich. We shouldn't punish people who are successful by taking away as much of their money as possible.

The people making 50k don't pay much in taxes and many of them will see their tax burden reduced by very large percentages. This is besides for the fact that most middle class people own part of the major corporations thru their retirement accounts so when we cut corporate taxes,  the middle class gains. The fact that the wealthy gain too should not be an issue for anyone.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 05:47:04 PM
I believe that everyone should be able to keep as much of their hard earned money as possible even if they're rich. We shouldn't punish people who are successful by taking away as much of their money as possible.

The people making 50k don't pay much in taxes and many of them will see their tax burden reduced by very large percentages. This is besides for the fact that most middle class people own part of the major corporations thru their retirement accounts so when we cut corporate taxes,  the middle class gains. The fact that the wealthy gain too should not be an issue for anyone.
Percentages don't matter. You cant pay your bills or buy food with percentages. It is real dollars that matter. There is a big difference in not being able to pay your kids tuition and not being able to buy your new boat.

I wish everyone could keep every dollar they earn but we all know in a democracy that doesn't work. The bills need to be paid.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 05:54:45 PM
Percentages don't matter. You cant pay your bills or buy food with percentages. It is real dollars that matter. There is a big difference in not being able to pay your kids tuition and not being able to buy your new boat.

I wish everyone could keep every dollar they earn but we all know in a democracy that doesn't work. The bills need to be paid.
Of course percentages matter. How much of a tax cut can you give someone who pays $1000 in taxes?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 06:05:44 PM
Of course percentages matter. How much of a tax cut can you give someone who pays $1000 in taxes?
That depends on many factors. If it is a middle class person you can give him the whole thousand back.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
That depends on many factors. If it is a middle class person you can give him the whole thousand back.
Are you saying all taxes should be paid for by the rich?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 06:07:49 PM
What does the government consider middle class?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 14, 2017, 06:11:31 PM
Are you saying all taxes should be paid for by the rich?
This is a discussion that will never have an answer. I would like to see a higher floor where taxes kick in. Everyone gets that benefit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 14, 2017, 09:07:58 PM
This is a discussion that will never have an answer. I would like to see a higher floor where taxes kick in. Everyone gets that benefit.
I think those that have a problem with the Rubio/Lee viewpoint is that between the EIC and refundable child tax credit those at the bottom are already receiving a handout in the thousands of dollars while paying no taxes (I have seen close to 10k if you hit the right spot). Why should those families receive even a larger handout? If anything raise the child tax credit to 3k per child (leaving the refundable portion at 1,100) to help out those who actually have a tax burden instead of giving a larger handout to those that don't contribute any taxes to society. Last I checked we don't live in a socialist country.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 14, 2017, 09:49:33 PM
I think those that have a problem with the Rubio/Lee viewpoint is that between the EIC and refundable child tax credit those at the bottom are already receiving a handout in the thousands of dollars while paying no taxes (I have seen close to 10k if you hit the right spot). Why should those families receive even a larger handout? If anything raise the child tax credit to 3k per child (leaving the refundable portion at 1,100) to help out those who actually have a tax burden instead of giving a larger handout to those that don't contribute any taxes to society. Last I checked we don't live in a socialist country.
Im all for a higher child tax credit of $3k, especially for those earning above 50k when you are maxed out of the Earned Income Credit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 14, 2017, 11:38:23 PM
Im all for a higher child tax credit of $3k, especially for those earning above 50k when you are maxed out of the Earned Income Credit.
I'm all for taking everything I can possibly get out of the government (i.e. those who actually pay taxes)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 15, 2017, 12:24:09 AM
I think those that have a problem with the Rubio/Lee viewpoint is that between the EIC and refundable child tax credit those at the bottom are already receiving a handout in the thousands of dollars while paying no taxes (I have seen close to 10k if you hit the right spot). Why should those families receive even a larger handout? If anything raise the child tax credit to 3k per child (leaving the refundable portion at 1,100) to help out those who actually have a tax burden instead of giving a larger handout to those that don't contribute any taxes to society. Last I checked we don't live in a socialist country.
Ya, Get rid of the refundable credits period. It's evil socialism
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 15, 2017, 08:43:17 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 09:34:22 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-15/this-tax-bill-is-a-trillion-dollar-blunder
There is so much BS propaganda in that article.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 15, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
But plenty of it is true.
As has been noted in this thread earlier, when Bush did tax cuts 15 years ago, it didn't stimulate the economy or cause hirings. Corporations will just have more money to buy back their own stock.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 15, 2017, 09:59:54 AM
But plenty of it is true.
As has been noted in this thread earlier, when Bush did tax cuts 15 years ago, it didn't stimulate the economy or cause hirings. Corporations will just have more money to buy back their own stock.
If a Corp has extra cash flow, why would they not look to grow/open new divisions/hire?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:04:30 AM
There is so much BS propaganda in that article.
As with the WH claims. That is the way it works. We have to try and figure it out for ourselves.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 10:05:47 AM
Corporations will just have more money to buy back their own stock.
The fact remains that every dollar left in the economy and not taken by the government, stimulates the economy. Yes even stock buyback programs, the people who make money from the buyback programs invest that money somewhere else.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:07:01 AM
If a Corp has extra cash flow, why would they not look to grow/open new divisions/hire?
Because they are greedy. Most of them have the cash now. How will this increase wages?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 10:08:17 AM
As with the WH claims. That is the way it works. We have to try and figure it out for ourselves.
The difference is, the white house is truthful about the core and lies about the fluff and the media is sometimes truthful about the fluff and lies about the core of the bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 10:09:01 AM
Because they are greedy. Most of them have the cash now. How will this increase wages?
The greedy people are those who expect a free handout from the government
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:09:30 AM
Yes even stock buyback programs, the people who make money from the buyback programs invest that money somewhere else.
Is this the trickle down effect?  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:11:44 AM
The difference is, the white house is truthful about the core and lies about the fluff and the media is sometimes truthful about the fluff and lies about the core of the bill.
The core issue is this is a tax cut for the middle class. 100% lie. The middle class is getting the crumbs that fall to the floor.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:12:36 AM
The greedy people are those who expect a free handout from the government
So you honestly believe corporations are not greedy?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 10:13:32 AM
Is this the trickle down effect?  :)
Call it what you want. Historically the government will get ~19% of GDP in taxes no matter what you do to the tax code, so the best way to increase the size of the governments slice of the pie is to increase the size of the pie.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 15, 2017, 10:20:30 AM
The Rubio thing might backfire on us now. They might pay for increasing the refundable portion by making the credit available to less people, i.e. lowering the phase out. It currently starts to phase out at 110k for MFJ and the Senate Bill upped that to 500k.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 10:23:24 AM
Call it what you want. Historically the government will get ~19% of GDP in taxes no matter what you do to the tax code, so the best way to increase the size of the governments slice of the pie is to increase the size of the pie.
What would you call it. Of that 19% figure you use what % do corporations pay?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 10:30:32 AM
What would you call it. Of that 19% figure you use what % do corporations pay?
It makes no difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser%27s_law)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 15, 2017, 10:31:16 AM
So you honestly believe corporations are not greedy?
There is a difference between those who want to hold on to what they have worked hard for and those that don't contribute and just want to take more.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 15, 2017, 11:01:01 AM
The fact remains that every dollar left in the economy and not taken by the government, stimulates the economy. Yes even stock buyback programs, the people who make money from the buyback programs invest that money somewhere else.
Can you explain this? How is money that is collected as tax revenue and then spent (we're running a deficit) less 'in the economy' than corporate profits?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 11:05:53 AM
Can you explain this? How is money that is collected as tax revenue and then spent (we're running a deficit) less 'in the economy' than corporate profits?
I'd rather let people decide where to spend their money than leave it up to the government. People spend their money smarter than the government can, when the government spends money there is so much bloat and waste and lots of it disappears.

ETA: When we tax more, there is less motive for profit and less investment and more importantly, less smart investment because many times doing it the smartest way will result in higher taxes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 15, 2017, 11:11:20 AM
I'd rather let people decide where to spend their money than leave it up to the government. People spend their money smarter than the government can, when the government spends money there is so much bloat and waste and lots of it disappears.
So then it does matter what corporations do with the additional profits. For example, if they sit on the excess cash - which, as Bloomberg pointed out, they're already doing in record amounts - that doesn't stimulate the economy.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 11:18:30 AM
So then it does matter what corporations do with the additional profits. For example, if they sit on the excess cash - which, as Bloomberg pointed out, they're already doing in record amounts - that doesn't stimulate the economy.
They are not keeping cash, that money is invested and it helps fuel the economy. It's called cash / cash equivalent because it can be liquidated in a short amount of time.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 15, 2017, 11:53:22 AM
They are not keeping cash, that money is invested and it helps fuel the economy. It's called cash / cash equivalent because it can be liquidated in a short amount of time.
They are keeping the money outside the US, it doesn't help our economy.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 11:56:43 AM
They are keeping the money outside the US, it doesn't help our economy.
That proves my point, if we lower taxes in the US, they will bring more of their profits into the US.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2017, 11:58:06 AM
But plenty of it is true.
As has been noted in this thread earlier, when Bush did tax cuts 15 years ago, it didn't stimulate the economy or cause hirings. Corporations will just have more money to buy back their own stock.
There is no real way to know that. Bush took over as the dotcom bubble was about to burst. There is no way of knowing what the effects would have been without the tax cut
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2017, 12:00:13 PM
Because they are greedy. Most of them have the cash now. How will this increase wages?
Why wouldn't greed lead them to try and grow the business?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2017, 12:02:06 PM
They are keeping the money outside the US, it doesn't help our economy.
His do you propose to get them to bring it into the US
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 15, 2017, 12:14:37 PM
There is a difference between those who want to hold on to what they have worked hard for and those that don't contribute and just want to take more.
Ok now can you answer the simple question?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on December 15, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2017-12-15/rubio-threat-on-child-tax-credit-puts-bump-in-gop-tax-path

looks like they upped the refundable part to $1400
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 12:17:23 PM
Ok now can you answer the simple question?
Either I'm not understanding you or you quoted the wrong post
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 15, 2017, 12:46:57 PM
Ok now can you answer the simple question?
Someone wanting to keep money that he EARNED is not greedy. Someone who wants more from others while not working is called greedy.
Remember the story of the three pigs - imagine the pig from the brick house out of the kindness of his heart let's the other 2 pigs stay in a room in his house and the 2 pigs demand that they each share the house equally. Who is the greedy one?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 15, 2017, 12:54:46 PM
There is so much BS propaganda in that article.
Indeed. Bloomberg is a brilliant guy, but he definitely has an agenda he's pushing.

The main reason corporations are sitting on cash, is uncertainty (or hopes for a better regulatory and tax environment around the corner).

You want to see corporations investing, hiring and growing the economy? Rip up the entire current IRC, and replace it with a VAT along with any transfer of ownership, be it by sale, gift or inheritance, become a taxable event (and add some cross-border provisions just to discourage off-shore schemes).

And as far as the missing parts of education and infrastructure, I couldn't agree more that those are essential pieces in order to grow the economy, but obviously the old recipes don't work, so we need to try something else in order to fix those problems.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Moshe123 on December 15, 2017, 12:58:44 PM
Mortgage interest deduction is 750k in new bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 15, 2017, 01:00:03 PM
Mortgage interest deduction is 750k in new bill.
This is only on NEW loans.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 15, 2017, 01:15:54 PM
I'm assuming the tax rates will be indexed to inflation like they are now. Any word on whether or not the deductions will also be? How about AMT exemption? IINM the reason why many middle class are hit with it is because it was not indexed for inflation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 15, 2017, 02:25:41 PM
Indeed. Bloomberg is a brilliant guy, but he definitely has an agenda he's pushing.

The main reason corporations are sitting on cash, is uncertainty (or hopes for a better regulatory and tax environment around the corner).

You want to see corporations investing, hiring and growing the economy? Rip up the entire current IRC, and replace it with a VAT along with any transfer of ownership, be it by sale, gift or inheritance, become a taxable event (and add some cross-border provisions just to discourage off-shore schemes).

And as far as the missing parts of education and infrastructure, I couldn't agree more that those are essential pieces in order to grow the economy, but obviously the old recipes don't work, so we need to try something else in order to fix those problems.
VAT is a dangerous tax because people don't realize what they are paying.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: hachover on December 16, 2017, 02:42:56 PM
If a Corp has extra cash flow, why would they not look to grow/open new divisions/hire?

Thats not how businesses think. If there is market opportunity and a good ROI, they will go after it. If there isnt the opportunity or a good return, no matter how much cash flow the business has, they wont do any investing. Public companies have easy access to capital, so cash flow isnt much of a factor in deciding to grow
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 16, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
Seems like the title of this thread is unequivocally true. The OP's original concern is what's likely to be the biggest issue for most here.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 16, 2017, 06:03:21 PM
Seems like the title of this thread is unequivocally true. The OP's original concern is what's likely to be the biggest issue for most here.

Instead of an exemption for each child they are giving another 1k child tax credit with $400 of that add'l 1k refundable.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 16, 2017, 06:23:45 PM
What is the refundable part?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 16, 2017, 06:39:33 PM
What is the refundable part?

Looks like $1400
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 16, 2017, 06:49:07 PM
Looks like $1400
Sorry I meant what do they mean by refundable. Kids are older so haven't had the credit for many years.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 16, 2017, 06:51:16 PM
Sorry I meant what do they mean by refundable. Kids are older so haven't had the credit for many years.

Non refundable means that it reduces tax owed, but it stops at 0. Refundable means that even if you don't owe taxes you'll get a check for the remainder.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 16, 2017, 06:54:27 PM
Refundable means that even if you don't owe taxes you'll get a check for the remainder.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: elit on December 16, 2017, 07:03:17 PM
so who can give a bottom line summary for the non accountants here of changes relevant to us
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 16, 2017, 07:03:47 PM
They schooled us. Can't prepay SALT income tax.

Quote
For purposes of subparagraph (B), an amount paid in a taxable year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, shall be treated as paid on the last day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 16, 2017, 07:48:21 PM
They schooled us. Can't prepay SALT income tax.
NYers should fund their 529s. That one they can't pre-empt.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Sammy82 on December 16, 2017, 08:24:40 PM
so who can give a bottom line summary for the non accountants here of changes relevant to us
+1
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 16, 2017, 08:28:52 PM
NYers should fund their 529s. That one they can't pre-empt.
They have no reason to pre empt it, it'll only cost the state, not the feds.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 16, 2017, 09:40:17 PM
They schooled us. Can't prepay SALT income tax.
The taxes you file in 2018 are for 2017
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 16, 2017, 09:53:49 PM
I think he was saying that they put a provision in to prevent people from maximizing their SALT deduction in 2017. Bill does not allow deduction of state taxes which will only be due in 2018, on 2017 taxes by paying early.
According to the language he quoted that is not true. As long as it is for the 2017 tax year it will be deductible.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 16, 2017, 09:59:44 PM
According to the language he quoted that is not true. As long as it is for the 2017 tax year it will be deductible.
That is correct (apparently the conference was following this thread  ??? )
It appears you would be able to pay your real estate tax due in the beginning of 2018 in December 2017 (as long as the tax has already been assessed - meaning you couldn't pre pay the following years property tax)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 16, 2017, 10:06:20 PM
According to the language he quoted that is not true. As long as it is for the 2017 tax year it will be deductible.
It doesn't say tax year, it says taxable year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 03:16:09 AM
The child tax credit as it stands now will not include 17 year olds as was originally passed in the Senate!
What did Rubio gain? Doesn't seem much, and he caused them to kill it for 17 year olds.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 17, 2017, 03:38:36 AM
The child tax credit as it stands now will not include 17 year olds as was originally passed in the Senate!
What did Rubio gain? Doesn't seem much, and he caused them to kill it for 17 year olds.
Do you have a 17 yo?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 17, 2017, 07:11:23 AM
Instead of an exemption for each child they are giving another 1k child tax credit with $400 of that add'l 1k refundable.
4050 - 1000 = 3050. That's a significant hit for a family of 7.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 07:56:32 AM
4050 - 1000 = 3050. That's a significant hit for a family of 7.
4050 is a reduction of taxable income. 1000 is a dollar for dollar credit. Someone in 25 percent tax bracket would lose 12.50, considering those 2. However, a married filing jointly under the current law starts losing child tax credit at 110000 agi. For someone with more than 3 children to be in the 25% bracket they would need to have agi exceeding 110000, in which case they lose the first 1000 credit. This bill raises agi for child tax credit to 400000. For those in the 15% bracket, exemption saved them 607.50 which is less than the 1000 credit.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 17, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
4050 is a reduction of taxable income. 1000 is a dollar for dollar credit. Someone in 25 percent tax bracket would lose 12.50, considering those 2. However, a married filing jointly under the current law starts losing child tax credit at 110000 agi. For someone with more than 3 children to be in the 25% bracket they would need to have agi exceeding 110000, in which case they lose the first 1000 credit. This bill raises agi for child tax credit to 400000. For those in the 15% bracket, exemption saved them 607.50 which is less than the 1000 credit.

Thank you for the explanation.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 09:05:57 AM
4050 is a reduction of taxable income. 1000 is a dollar for dollar credit. Someone in 25 percent tax bracket would lose 12.50, considering those 2. However, a married filing jointly under the current law starts losing child tax credit at 110000 agi. For someone with more than 3 children to be in the 25% bracket they would need to have agi exceeding 110000, in which case they lose the first 1000 credit. This bill raises agi for child tax credit to 400000. For those in the 15% bracket, exemption saved them 607.50 which is less than the 1000 credit.
Gain of having increased credit vs. Exemption is even greater considering this bill lowers tax rates across the board.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 17, 2017, 09:15:58 AM
Gain of having increased credit vs. Exemption is even greater considering this bill lowers tax rates across the board.
Yes. However if you take a family of 6 their taxable income is increased by 24k (loss of 4k exemption) possibly in a higher tax bracket before the credits kick in.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 09:24:59 AM
Yes. However if you take a family of 6 their taxable income is increased by 24k (loss of 4k exemption) possibly in a higher tax bracket before the credits kick in.
True, although anyone up to and including the 24% bracket gains. Many of those would have been phased out of child tax credit long before. Some would have lost dependency exemption too from AMT/PEP. Of course, many with children above 17 will lose with the credit being only 500
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 01:15:23 PM
Do you have a 17 yo?
Will have iy'h  by the later years of the 10 year bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 17, 2017, 04:32:18 PM
Yes. However if you take a family of 6 their taxable income is increased by 24k (loss of 4k exemption) possibly in a higher tax bracket before the credits kick in.
Because of the higher phase out, this would only be an issue if you have 19+ kids
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 17, 2017, 05:03:03 PM
The Rubio move does not make ANY sense. Why should a family of 4 that earns $30k and already gets a fat return get another $400 child tax credit? Why not give the $400 to a family of 4 that earns $60k that pays taxes and can't make ends meat?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 17, 2017, 05:07:10 PM
The Rubio move does not make ANY sense. Why should a family of 4 that earns $30k and already gets a fat return get another $400 child tax credit? Why not give the $400 to a family of 4 that earns $60k that pays taxes and can't make ends meat?
Why give it to either? If you can't afford kids don't have them.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 17, 2017, 05:11:47 PM
They’re trying to get ppl to move out of blue states by removing the SALT deduction. Shrewd move by republicans.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 05:12:56 PM
Why give it to either? If you can't afford kids don't have them.
Because we don't wind to wind up like most of the western world with shrinking populations, which wreaks havoc on senior benefits and GDP?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 05:14:59 PM
They’re trying to get ppl to move out of blue states by removing the SALT deduction. Shrewd move by republicans.
Seven U.S. states currently don't have an income tax: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming.

4 red.
1 purple.
2 blue.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 05:22:31 PM
The Rubio move does not make ANY sense. Why should a family of 4 that earns $30k and already gets a fat return get another $400 child tax credit? Why not give the $400 to a family of 4 that earns $60k that pays taxes and can't make ends meat?
If those making 60k have any tax liability, they get not only the extra 400, but also 600 per child to offset their tax liability
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 17, 2017, 06:23:10 PM
If those making 60k have any tax liability, they get not only the extra 400, but also 600 per child to offset their tax liability
If you to pay, you'll get a $2,000 child credit but why not make it $2,400 and those that already get a return should stay the same $1,000?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 06:34:10 PM
If you to pay, you'll get a $2,000 child credit but why not make it $2,400 and those that already get a return should stay the same $1,000?

I don't disagree with your suggestion. I think Rubio wanted the tax credit to offset payroll tax liability which even poor people pay. The final bill doesn't use the credit directly against the payroll taxes, though
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 17, 2017, 06:34:25 PM
They’re trying to get ppl to move out of blue states by removing the SALT deduction. Shrewd move by republicans.
This way the states they move into will turn blue.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 17, 2017, 06:42:33 PM
Because we don't wind to wind up like most of the western world with shrinking populations, which wreaks havoc on senior benefits and GDP?
Using this logic wouldn't families have to get bigger ever generation to support the preceding generation?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Using this logic wouldn't families have to get bigger ever generation to support the preceding generation?
No, they'd have to stay the same. Most western countries don't have that.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 17, 2017, 06:58:10 PM
No, they'd have to stay the same. Most western countries don't have that.
I guess I am not following. If they only had kids they could afford wouldn't it basically stay the same then? Wait, I forgot the R's tax plan that shifts wealth to the top %.  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 17, 2017, 07:04:22 PM
They’re trying to get ppl to move out of blue states by removing the SALT deduction. Shrewd move by republicans.
They just want to stop the federal government from subsidizing tax and spend liberals.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 07:07:13 PM
I guess I am not following. If they only had kids they could afford wouldn't it basically stay the same then? Wait, I forgot the R's tax plan that shifts wealth to the top %.  :)
If a few shekels will push someone from 2 (below replacement) to 3 (above replacement) kids, then it's good for the country.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 07:49:13 PM
Using this logic wouldn't families have to get bigger ever generation to support the preceding generation?
Sure, social security was always a pyramid scheme. But even without that, Europe is importing people from the middle East by the millions to deal with their abysmal birth rate and Japan is expected to have major issues in the future due to the expected ratio of retired vs working people. As life expectancy increases you need more younger people in the workforce to support the ever growing retired population.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 17, 2017, 08:15:49 PM
If a few shekels will push someone from 2 (below replacement) to 3 (above replacement) kids, then it's good for the country.
Maybe they will all buy 3d android tablets
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Moshe123 on December 17, 2017, 08:19:46 PM
http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 08:31:18 PM
Anyone want to translate the pass-through deduction into English?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 17, 2017, 08:36:30 PM
Anyone want to translate the pass-through deduction into English?
If you make 100k in your pass thru business, you get a 20% deduction so you only pay taxes on 80k
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 17, 2017, 08:39:39 PM
If you make 100k in your pass thru business, you get a 20% deduction so you only pay taxes on 80k
+1

This is a major break for all small businesses. Not just "big corps".
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 17, 2017, 08:42:13 PM
If you make 100k in your pass thru business, you get a 20% deduction so you only pay taxes on 80k
That is a very basic understanding. As they say the devil is in the details.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
That is a very basic understanding. As they say the devil is in the details.
Please elaborate. I tried reading it all and got a headache.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 17, 2017, 08:47:34 PM
This is a major break for all small businesses. Not just "big corps".
So what % of small business will this help?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: elit on December 17, 2017, 08:57:00 PM
http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
according to this I would save money with the new bill
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: elit on December 17, 2017, 08:58:18 PM
If you make 100k in your pass thru business, you get a 20% deduction so you only pay taxes on 80k
can you explain it without using the word pass thru so we can learn what pass thru means
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 17, 2017, 09:02:41 PM
can you explain it without using the word pass thru so we can learn what pass thru means
Pass through means the tax is on the shareholders portion of the income. It includes LLC, S Corp. As opposed to C Corp which is first taxed at corporate level and shareholder pays tax on dividends
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: elit on December 17, 2017, 09:10:16 PM
Pass through means the tax is on the shareholders portion of the income. It includes LLC, S Corp. As opposed to C Corp which is first taxed at corporate level and shareholder pays tax on dividends
so does this apply if I earn income on a 1099 without having any sort of Corp
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 17, 2017, 09:13:59 PM
http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Still no pass-through calc
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Yammer on December 17, 2017, 10:10:59 PM
They’re trying to get ppl to move out of blue states by removing the SALT deduction. Shrewd move by republicans.
It will simply turn the red States blue
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 17, 2017, 10:21:42 PM
Please elaborate. I tried reading it all and got a headache.
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments or income from a sole proprietorship (plain old Schedule C).
If your married filing jointly and earn over $415,000 (or Single over $207,500) you cannot take the 20% deduction.
If you make somewhere in between, than depending on what kind of business you have is how you determine what percentage of the 20% deduction you are allowed to take.

If someone has a different understanding please feel free to jump in.   
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 17, 2017, 10:38:29 PM
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments or income from a sole proprietorship (plain old Schedule C).
If your married filing jointly and earn over $415,000 (or Single over $207,500) you cannot take the 20% deduction.
If you make somewhere in between, than depending on what kind of business you have is how you determine what percentage of the 20% deduction you are allowed to take.

If someone has a different understanding please feel free to jump in.
Link to the actual text?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 10:51:35 PM
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments or income from a sole proprietorship (plain old Schedule C).
Other than a Guaranteed payment, all other income that ends up on line 1 of a partnership k-1 will get a 20% deduction, regardless if you are active or passive?
Is this true, even if the partnership or s-corp does not pay wages (does not have employees)?  Originally in the senate bill, wasn't there some language about you needing to pay wages?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 10:58:54 PM
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments or income from a sole proprietorship (plain old Schedule C).
If your married filing jointly and earn over $415,000 (or Single over $207,500) you cannot take the 20% deduction.
If you make somewhere in between, than depending on what kind of business you have is how you determine what percentage of the 20% deduction you are allowed to take.

If someone has a different understanding please feel free to jump in.

First line is good. However if you make over 315k you are only excluded if you're a "personal service businesses" i.e., accountants, doctors, lawyers, etc.
Other businesses not excluded, but the deduction is limited to the higher of 1) your share of the W-2 wages paid by the business, 2) 25% of your share of the W-2 wages paid by the business, PLUS 2.5% of the unadjusted basis (the original purchase price) of property used in the production of income.

See here (https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2017/12/16/the-tax-bill-is-finalized-whos-happy-and-whos-not) for a good explanation
Quote
sole proprietors, S corporation shareholders, and partners in a partnership will be entitled to a deduction equal to 20% of their allocable share of business income.

As was the case in the Senate bill, however, the deduction comes with numerous caveats:

Generally, the deduction cannot exceed 50% of your share of the W-2 wages paid by the business.
Alternatively, the limitation can be computed as 25% of your share of the W-2 wages paid by the business, PLUS 2.5% of the unadjusted basis (the original purchase price) of property used in the production of income.
The W-2 limitations do not apply if you earn less than $157,500 (if single; $315,000 if married filing jointly).
Certain "personal service businesses" -- i.e., accountants, doctors, lawyers, etc... -- are not eligible for the deduction, unless their taxable income is less than $157,500 (if single; $315,000) if married.

In its simplest form, it works like this:

A is a 30% owner of a manufacturing S corporation. His share of income in 2018 is $700,000, and his share of the W-2 wages of the S corporation are $200,000. A is entitled to a deduction equal to the LESSER OF:

20% of $700,000, or $140,000, or
50% of his share of the W-2 wages of the S corporation, or $100,000.
Thus, A can take a deduction of $100,000 on his return.

Another example

assume A holds a large commercial building that he purchased seven years in an LLC he co-owns with two individuals. His share of the purchase price of the building was $5 million, and his share of the annual rental income is $1 million. The LLC pays no W-2 wages; rather, it pays a fee to a management company. Under the previous Senate bill, no deduction would be available to A against the $1 million of income because of the wage limitation.

The final bill, however, adds a new wrinkle: the ability to take the 20% deduction up to 25% of W-2 wages PLUS 2.5% of the original cost of business property.

Using the same facts as above, under the final bill, A is entitled to a deduction equal to the LESSER of:

20% of qualified income, or $200,000 ($1 million * 20%)
25% of W-2 wages ($0) plus 2.5% of A's share of the unadjusted basis of the building (2.5% * $5,000,000) = $125,000
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 17, 2017, 11:02:02 PM
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments or income from a sole proprietorship (plain old Schedule C).
When you say "plain old" are you excluding statutory employee schedule C?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 17, 2017, 11:08:17 PM
@Yitz - you are correct. A "specified business" takes a percentage between 315 & 415 and excluded above that while other business are subject to adjustments above 315.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 11:14:19 PM
How the total cuts have shifted throughout the process.
Negatives are tax cuts and positive are tax increases (all amounts in billions).

As you can see, in the final bill, Individuals are by far the greatest beneficiaries. (Corporate you need to net with International because the tax increases affect mostly corps)

HouseSenateFinal
Corporate/Business Tax Changes($846)($697)($653)
S Corp/Partnership/Sole Proprietorship Changes($448)($460)($414)
International Tax Changes$277$104$324
Estate Tax Changes($172)($94)($83)
Remaining Individual Tax Changes($224)($348)($629)
Total($1,413)($1,495)($1,456)

Source (https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2017/12/16/the-tax-bill-is-finalized-whos-happy-and-whos-not)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 11:14:43 PM
But under 315k, you will get an automatic 20% deduction, even if you pay zero wages?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 11:15:51 PM
But under 315k, you will get an automatic 20% deduction, even if you pay zero wages?

Correct
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 11:21:44 PM
Link to the actual text?

http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171218/CRPT-115HRPT-466.pdf (http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171218/CRPT-115HRPT-466.pdf)

Conference agreement for pass throughs starts on page 560 of the pdf.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 11:23:01 PM
Correct
not sure why a partnership or s-corp without w-2 wages gets (deserves) a 20% deduction, while schedule c does not?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 11:24:17 PM
not sure why a partnership or s-corp without w-2 wages gets (deserves) a 20% deduction, while schedule c does not?

Who said schedule c doesn't get?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 17, 2017, 11:30:46 PM
Who said schedule c doesn't get?
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=68913.msg1851492#msg1851492
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 17, 2017, 11:32:13 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=68913.msg1851492#msg1851492

It's missing a comma. Should read
If your married filing jointly and earn under $315,000 (or Single under $157,000) - you can deduct 20% of your net pass through income. Pass through income would include non wage income from an S Corp, income from a Partnership that is not Guaranteed payments, or income from a sole proprietorship
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: good sam on December 18, 2017, 12:22:46 AM
http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
according to this I would save money with the new bill
Same here.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 12:22:54 AM
Non refundable means that it reduces tax owed, but it stops at 0. Refundable means that even if you don't owe taxes you'll get a check for the remainder.
It's not really fully refundable. It's limited to 15% of income over 3k.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 12:32:16 AM
It will simply turn the red States blue
Repost
This way the states they move into will turn blue.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mordechain on December 18, 2017, 12:45:34 AM
Have there been any changes to the foreign tax credits? I.e for us citizens filing from Israel or Canada etc..?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 12:54:04 AM
It's not really fully refundable. It's limited to 15% of income over 3k.
I think you're referring to the old additional child tax credit. New credit should be 1400, fully refundable, IINM
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ilherman on December 18, 2017, 01:00:18 AM
Any experts on here? I'm in the process of buying a house which is an estate I believe. The seller called me today that if I want it I most close before 12/31 since the new tax bill will affect them very badly and they will have to pay a lot of tax if they close after 12/31. Does this make any sense? Even if it is an estate, my understanding is that the estate tax is only getting easier. Wanna know if the guy is BSing me or there could be something to it?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 18, 2017, 01:07:06 AM
Any experts on here? I'm in the process of buying a house which is an estate I believe. The seller called me today that if I want it I most close before 12/31 since the new tax bill will affect them very badly and they will have to pay a lot of tax if they close after 12/31. Does this make any sense? Even if it is an estate, my understanding is that the estate tax is only getting easier. Wanna know if the guy is BSing me or there could be something to it?
Is the seller actually an estate, or is it a trust or some other family member?

Depending on who owned the house at the date of death, there might be capital gains taxes involved.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 01:21:53 AM
I think you're referring to the old additional child tax credit. New credit should be 1400, fully refundable, IINM
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.
It's fully refundable, but if you make 15k, you would get 1,800, even if you have 12 kids. 15,000-3,000x.15

CM(with a link)IIW

If you were right, this would be the biggest welfare program since....



Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ilherman on December 18, 2017, 01:31:56 AM
Is the seller actually an estate, or is it a trust or some other family member?

Depending on who owned the house at the date of death, there might be capital gains taxes involved.
I just checked. The house is under the kids names for the longest time. Way before the father died. What gives now?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 18, 2017, 09:21:24 AM
I just checked. The house is under the kids names for the longest time. Way before the father died. What gives now?
So, as I suspected, this has absolutely nothing to do with estate taxes and everything to do with a huge capital gain (presuming the property was gifted with a very low cost basis, so almost entire sale price is capital gains).

I now defer to the CPAs around here to show the tax difference between getting a capital gain of 1,000,000 (for illustration purposes) in 2017 for a NYC resident vs getting that gain in 2018 based on the new tax law.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 09:23:37 AM
I just checked. The house is under the kids names for the longest time. Way before the father died. What gives now?
So it is now a question of the kids tax situation including them possibly considering it to be a second home and or offsetting with capital losses.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on December 18, 2017, 12:17:32 PM
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-taxpayers-rush-claim-deductions-120000458.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on December 18, 2017, 12:18:51 PM
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.
It's fully refundable, but if you make 15k, you would get 1,800, even if you have 12 kids. 15,000-3,000x.15

CM(with a link)IIW

If you were right, this would be the biggest welfare program since....
so maybe it's time to fix your "fake news" title of this thread
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 18, 2017, 12:34:01 PM
so maybe it's time to fix your "fake news" title of this thread
+1 It seems like most large families will pay less taxes or get a bigger refund.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 18, 2017, 03:21:30 PM
+1 It seems like most large families will pay less taxes or get a bigger refund.
Yeah, I'd save a few k in taxes cuz of the increase credits
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 03:39:26 PM
so maybe it's time to fix your "fake news" title of this thread
But it's only 15% of income
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 03:59:41 PM
But it's only 15% of income
Source please
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 18, 2017, 04:07:32 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-18/finance-gurus-devise-funky-workarounds-to-loss-of-salt-deduction

(Not a response to the prior comment)

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 18, 2017, 04:19:25 PM
Is low/middle class based on income, net worth or both?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 04:23:36 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-18/finance-gurus-devise-funky-workarounds-to-loss-of-salt-deduction

(Not a response to the prior comment)



If they make state tax a charitable deduction in NJ that may be a windfall to S corps who can expense charity on state returns.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 18, 2017, 06:37:38 PM
If they make state tax a charitable deduction in NJ that may be a windfall to S corps who can expense charity on state returns.
Huh? One of us did not read the article very well, though to be honest it might be me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 06:40:25 PM
Huh? One of us did not read the article very well, though to be honest it might be me.

Charitable Gifts

One tactic: Allow residents to make charitable gifts to the state instead of paying income tax.

That would involve legislators encouraging residents to donate to, say, New Jersey (insert quip here), instead of paying income taxes. The self-interested philanthropists who took up the state on the offer would receive a state income-tax credit for the full amount of their gift, which would qualify for a federal deduction.

Wealthy taxpayers already use a similar ploy in 18 states that offer at least partial tax credits in return for donations to nonprofits that grant tuition vouchers to private and religious schools. It especially appeals to affluent filers who pay the alternative minimum tax, which doesn’t allow them to claim deductions for state and local levies.
Similar Strategy

In a memo released in 2011, the Internal Revenue Service gave its blessing for taxpayers to claim federal deductions on those gifts. The combination of a 100 percent state-tax credit and a federal deduction actually makes the gifts profitable for some donors, said Carl Davis, research director for the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.

“It’s really just a mechanism in state law that lets people launder state income-tax payments and convert them into charitable contributions,” Davis said.

Alas, it would involve a loophole that’s easy to close, he said.

“Under the current rules, it’s workable,’’ he said. “But I don’t see Congress or the IRS letting a state get away with it very long.”

The charitable-gift gambit isn’t the only potential loophole. States could quit relying on income tax, paid by individuals, and switch to payroll taxes, levied on employers, according to a Dec. 7 report, “The Games People Play,” by a group of tax experts that includes Kamin and Shanske.

If employers pay the payroll tax and reduce employees’ salaries by the same amount, workers wouldn’t have to deduct anything and would wind up being paid the same amount. That would allow states to collect the same revenue while preserving individuals’ deductions on federal returns.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 18, 2017, 06:46:24 PM
That is correct (apparently the conference was following this thread  ??? )
It appears you would be able to pay your real estate tax due in the beginning of 2018 in December 2017 (as long as the tax has already been assessed - meaning you couldn't pre pay the following years property tax)

Can we revisit this? Can you prepay property tax? The language of bill seems to only restrict prepaying income tax, no?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 18, 2017, 07:05:18 PM

I read that. But it didn't sound like the suggestion was to 'make state tax a charitable deduction' on any level. There's apparently an existing way to make a 'charitable' donation to the state that is qualifies for the federal tax deduction. What they'd be adding is that those donations to the state would qualify you for state income tax credit of the same amount. Thus you get to deduct an amount equivalent to your state income taxes from your federal taxes, and your 'donation' causes you to have a net zero tax liability. That's the way I understood it at least, and that would have nothing to do with any other types of charitable donations.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 07:09:18 PM
I read that. But it didn't sound like the suggestion was to 'make state tax a charitable deduction' on any level. There's apparently an existing way to make a 'charitable' donation to the state that is qualifies for the federal tax deduction. What they'd be adding is that those donations to the state would qualify you for state income tax credit of the same amount. Thus you get to deduct an amount equivalent to your state income taxes from your federal taxes, and your 'donation' causes you to have a net zero tax liability. That's the way I understood it at least, and that would have nothing to do with any other types of charitable donations.
So if it is a charitable donation to the state it should be able to expense from a corp.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 18, 2017, 07:34:13 PM
Can we revisit this? Can you prepay property tax? The language of bill seems to only restrict prepaying income tax, no?
I take back what I said which I took from an accounting blog. The language is vague and seems to say you only can't prepay state or local income tax.
"The conference agreement also provides that, in the case of an amount paid in a taxable
year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a
taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, the payment shall be treated as paid on the last
day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed for purposes of applying the provision
limiting the dollar amount of the deduction. Thus, under the provision, an individual may not
claim an itemized deduction in 2017 on a pre-payment of income tax for a future taxable year in
order to avoid the dollar limitation applicable for taxable years beginning after 2017."
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 18, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
I take back what I said which I took from an accounting blog. The language is vague and seems to say you only can't prepay state or local income tax.
"The conference agreement also provides that, in the case of an amount paid in a taxable
year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a
taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, the payment shall be treated as paid on the last
day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed for purposes of applying the provision
limiting the dollar amount of the deduction. Thus, under the provision, an individual may not
claim an itemized deduction in 2017 on a pre-payment of income tax for a future taxable year in
order to avoid the dollar limitation applicable for taxable years beginning after 2017."
So if I prepay property tax will that likely be deductible in 2017?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 18, 2017, 07:43:29 PM
So if it is a charitable donation to the state it should be able to expense from a corp.
I don't know the details here, but if they can currently deduct/expense SALT, what would they gain with this workaround over today's tax law. And if they can't, then why would the state extend the tax credit to corps - they can just make it available to individuals. The whole point is to replace the SALT deduction, so the credit can be targeted for any situation where there was previously a SALT deduction, and now there isn't under the new bill.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 18, 2017, 07:51:36 PM
I don't know the details here, but if they can currently deduct/expense SALT, what would they gain with this workaround over today's tax law. And if they can't, then why would the state extend the tax credit to corps - they can just make it available to individuals. The whole point is to replace the SALT deduction, so the credit can be targeted for any situation where there was previously a SALT deduction, and now there isn't under the new bill.
Expensing can be better than a deduction. It comes off of AGI.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 09:09:59 PM
Source please
Refundable always meant 15% of income over 3k.
All the news reports were that they made 1400 refundable.
If the percentage changed from 15% to 100% that would be a much bigger story, (1000 to 1400 is a 40% change. 15% to 100% is a 666% percent change, 666 is 16.65 times 40, so the story would be the percent change, not the 1400 change).

I can't bring a negative source, because that is impossible.
You will have to bring a positive source that the largest welfare program in decades was just created.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 09:19:42 PM
Refundable always meant 15% of income over 3k.
All the news reports were that they made 1400 refundable.
If the percentage changed from 15% to 100% that would be a much bigger story, (1000 to 1400 is a 40% change. 15% to 100% is a 666% percent change, 666 is 16.65 times 40, so the story would be the percent change, not the 1400 change).

I can't bring a negative source, because that is impossible.
You will have to bring a positive source that the largest welfare program in decades was just created.
according to this peice, 15% is only mentioned under old bill. Wouldn't be a larger handout than EITC, anyway.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/15/us/politics/final-republican-tax-bill-cuts.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 18, 2017, 09:46:01 PM
according to this peice, 15% is only mentioned under old bill. Wouldn't be a larger handout than EITC, anyway.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/15/us/politics/final-republican-tax-bill-cuts.html
So what is "up to" $1400?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 09:46:25 PM
according to this peice, 15% is only mentioned under old bill. Wouldn't be a larger handout than EITC, anyway.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/15/us/politics/final-republican-tax-bill-cuts.html
It does slightly seem from that chart as you say.


A family of 4 children earning 20k, in the old bill would get 2,550, and in the new bill would get 5,600? I find that hard to believe.

If this is true this would be the greatest news for large familes ever. A family of 8 children earning 20k would get 11,200 instead of 2,550.

I hope you're right. But it sounds pretty crazy to think that there would be no stress on this fact AT ALL in the media.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 09:47:43 PM
So what is "up to" $1400?
Great point!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 18, 2017, 09:48:20 PM
according to this peice, 15% is only mentioned under old bill. Wouldn't be a larger handout than EITC, anyway.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/15/us/politics/final-republican-tax-bill-cuts.html
"The credit is allowable against both the regular tax and the alternative minimum tax
(“AMT”). To the extent the child credit exceeds the taxpayer’s tax liability, the taxpayer is
eligible for a refundable credit (the “additional child tax credit”) equal to 15 percent of earned
income in excess of $3,000 (the “earned income” formula)."

This part of the law was not changed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 18, 2017, 09:49:33 PM
"The credit is allowable against both the regular tax and the alternative minimum tax
(“AMT”). To the extent the child credit exceeds the taxpayer’s tax liability, the taxpayer is
eligible for a refundable credit (the “additional child tax credit”) equal to 15 percent of earned
income in excess of $3,000 (the “earned income” formula)."

This part of the law was not changed.
Right, that's why it's not news..
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 09:51:27 PM
Thanks. 2 CPAs are backin me up!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 09:56:34 PM
"The credit is allowable against both the regular tax and the alternative minimum tax
(“AMT”). To the extent the child credit exceeds the taxpayer’s tax liability, the taxpayer is
eligible for a refundable credit (the “additional child tax credit”) equal to 15 percent of earned
income in excess of $3,000 (the “earned income” formula)."

This part of the law was not changed.
Only mention of earned income formula is in house version. Conference agreement says nothing about it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
http://taxplancalculator.com/calc
Running some numbers through this calculator seems to indicate refundable CTC is 15% above 2500. Not sure where he gets that from.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 18, 2017, 10:55:43 PM
Only mention of earned income formula is in house version. Conference agreement says nothing about it.
What i quoted was from the current law. The conference agreement does not mention, which means it has not changed. If there was a change it would have said so.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 18, 2017, 10:59:23 PM
The text of the final bill page 55 here (http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171218/CRPT-115HRPT-466.pdf) says they are lowering the base from 3k to 2.5k, but in the summary (page 566) it only says the the Senate bill lowered it but doesn't mention that it was agreed to in conference...
Quote from:
‘‘(6) EARNED INCOME THRESHOLD FOR REFUNDABLE CREDIT.—Subsection (d)(1)(B)(i) shall be applied by substituting ‘$2,500’ for ‘$3,000’.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 18, 2017, 11:14:06 PM
https://taxnews.ey.com/news/2017-2130-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-conference-agreement-released (https://taxnews.ey.com/news/2017-2130-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-conference-agreement-released) (bottom)
https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/us/pdf/2017/12/tnf-conference-agreement-dec18-2017.pdf (https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/us/pdf/2017/12/tnf-conference-agreement-dec18-2017.pdf) (page 20)

both indicate that the income threshold was lowered to 2.5k
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 18, 2017, 11:26:25 PM
Yup, I see it now. You guys are right.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 19, 2017, 10:50:54 AM
https://taxnews.ey.com/news/2017-2130-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-conference-agreement-released (https://taxnews.ey.com/news/2017-2130-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-conference-agreement-released) (bottom)
https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/us/pdf/2017/12/tnf-conference-agreement-dec18-2017.pdf (https://home.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/us/pdf/2017/12/tnf-conference-agreement-dec18-2017.pdf) (page 20)

both indicate that the income threshold was lowered to 2.5k

According to the link from EY above (all the way at the bottom), the child tax credit is for 17 year olds as well.
Is that true, or they made a mistake?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 19, 2017, 12:18:43 PM
According to the link from EY above (all the way at the bottom), the child tax credit is for 17 year olds as well.
Is that true, or they made a mistake?
Ey..  probably a mistake
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 19, 2017, 02:34:38 PM
Passed by the house....
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 19, 2017, 03:31:47 PM
Passed by the house....
Hope the low/middle class have enough money for some Vaseline because they are going to need it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 19, 2017, 03:37:38 PM
Hope the low/middle class have enough money for some Vaseline because they are going to need it.
The middle class can use their tax savings for it. The lower class does not have tax to reduce so they will be unaffected.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 19, 2017, 07:33:40 PM
529 for secondary and elementary school is out.
House will vote again on the bill w/o that provision.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 19, 2017, 07:34:40 PM
529 for secondary and elementary school is out.
House will vote again on the bill w/o that provision.
It's about time the two threads discussing the tax bill are merged.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 19, 2017, 07:35:32 PM
529 for secondary and elementary school is out.
House will vote again on the bill w/o that provision.
Fwiu it's only out for homeschool
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 19, 2017, 10:09:28 PM
Is SALT for business income on a schedule-C going to remain deductible?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 19, 2017, 10:13:19 PM
Is SALT for business income on a schedule-C going to remain deductible?
IDK. But there's a lot of things that are deductible for businesses and not for individuals.

Watch to see how many properties in the Hamptons will get owned by entities, and rented to the people that use them as vacation homes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 19, 2017, 10:39:09 PM
"A taxpayer earning $3 million in New York City may see a significant tax increase: $44,000 under the Bill, due in part to the loss of significant deductions. A similar taxpayer in Florida would see a tax savings of about $91,000 under the Bill (primarily due to the lower top rate, elongated 35% tax bracket and regaining itemized deductions that are no longer phased-out), according to our preliminary analysis."
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 19, 2017, 10:41:04 PM
Fwiu it's only out for homeschool
Is money you put into 529s tax-deductible or is only the growth deductible?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 19, 2017, 10:44:54 PM
Is money you put into 529s tax-deductible or is only the growth deductible?
Only the growth, however some states have state tax deductions.
In Ohio the limit is 2k per beneficiary.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 19, 2017, 11:04:15 PM
Is money you put into 529s tax-deductible or is only the growth deductible?
Only the growth, however some states have state tax deductions.
In Ohio the limit is 2k per beneficiary.
No complaints from you until we all get vouchers ;D
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Dan on December 19, 2017, 11:09:08 PM
No complaints from you until we all get vouchers ;D
No vouchers where I live. It's complicated. Just don't tell that to the hundreds of NY/NJ families flocking here annually since they started.
Though it seems like OH 529s go up to $4K per person next year.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 19, 2017, 11:11:51 PM
No vouchers where I live. It's complicated. Just don't tell that to the hundreds of NY/NJ families flocking here annually since they started.
Though it seems like OH 529s go up to $4K per person next year.
Don't forget that you can still contribute in 2017 to get the state tax break and then use it in 2018 once it takes effect.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 19, 2017, 11:47:59 PM
Don't forget that you can still contribute in 2017 to get the state tax break and then use it in 2018 once it takes effect.
My understanding is that each state would have to make the change to their 529 plan for you to be able to use the funds for k - 12. Someone can correct me if I'm wromg
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 12:38:11 AM
https://www.c-span.org/video/?438760-2/us-senate-debates-votes-tax-reform-bill&live
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 12:42:59 AM
My understanding is that each state would have to make the change to their 529 plan for you to be able to use the funds for k - 12. Someone can correct me if I'm wromg
I highly doubt it. If that were the case, what would that change to the federal tax code have accomplished at all?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 20, 2017, 12:52:05 AM
I highly doubt it. If that were the case, what would that change to the federal tax code have accomplished at all?
To exempt the earnings from federal tax
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 20, 2017, 12:56:43 AM
 :D :o
Fwiu it's only out for homeschool

Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct. Sen. Wyden's comments seem to say that because this provision is more than just a budget issue, it cannot be passed through reconciliation. That would apply to private schools as well.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 01:08:34 AM
To exempt the earnings from federal tax
Good point. I should probably go to bed. ;)

Though I still think that if it's in the bill that passes, the states can't say K-12 isn't a qualified withdrawal.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Baruch on December 20, 2017, 01:17:32 AM
Ted Cruz says in his speech that it's only been removed for homeschooling
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 20, 2017, 07:34:01 AM
Is SALT for business income on a schedule-C going to remain deductible?
Without knowing, I would assume so
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 10:18:45 AM
What is an example of salt on a schedule c?
Isn't salt, income tax which is something that is only calculated on your personal state tax return?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 10:23:36 AM
What is an example of salt on a schedule c?
Isn't salt, income tax which is something that is only calculated on your personal state tax return?
property tax
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 11:14:33 AM
My understanding is that each state would have to make the change to their 529 plan for you to be able to use the funds for k - 12. Someone can correct me if I'm wromg
You're wrong. 529 plans grow tax free with after tax dollars. If you use the states plan (not every state has one), then they're exempt from state tax too.
I'm in CA, there is no CA plan, so I would find the 529 funds quirk the best returns and enjoy the federal tax benefits
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
You're wrong. 529 plans grow tax free with after tax dollars. If you use the states plan (not every state has one), then they're exempt from state tax too.
I'm in CA, there is no CA plan, so I would find the 529 funds quirk the best returns and enjoy the federal tax benefits
I don't get what you wrote
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 11:41:05 AM
You're wrong. 529 plans grow tax free with after tax dollars. If you use the states plan (not every state has one), then they're exempt from state tax too.
I'm in CA, there is no CA plan, so I would find the 529 funds quirk the best returns and enjoy the federal tax benefits
CA actually has one of the best rated plans overall:
https://www.scholarshare.com/open/index.shtml

Depending on the exact details of how you want to invest, you might want to dig through the details at one of the many sites that reviews all the different plans, like this one: http://www.savingforcollege.com/5_cap_ratings/
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
CA actually has one of the best rated plans overall:
https://www.scholarshare.com/open/index.shtml

Depending on the exact details of how you want to invest, you might want to dig through the details at one of the many sites that reviews all the different plans, like this one: http://www.savingforcollege.com/5_cap_ratings/
I misspoke, meant to say that CA doesn't offer a deduction for contributions. Many states do
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 20, 2017, 11:47:37 AM
I misspoke, meant to say that CA doesn't offer a deduction for contributions. Many states do
Do states offer a deduction or a credit? Specifically asking about NY.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 11:50:07 AM
Do states offer a deduction or a credit? Specifically asking about NY.
In addition to federal tax benefits, many states offer full or partial state tax deductions for contributions to a 529 plan. ... Seven states currently have a state incometax, but do not offer a deduction for contributions: California, Delaware, Hawaii, Kentucky, Maine, New Jersey, and North Carolina.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 12:05:18 PM
Do states offer a deduction or a credit? Specifically asking about NY.
NY's is a deduction.

ETA: Here's the full list, I posted it earlier on another thread:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BW5ULc57WuMJ:www.finaid.org/savings/state529deductions.phtml+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Only 3 have credits - UT, VT, and IN.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 20, 2017, 12:31:15 PM
You're wrong. 529 plans grow tax free with after tax dollars. If you use the states plan (not every state has one), then they're exempt from state tax too.
I'm in CA, there is no CA plan, so I would find the 529 funds quirk the best returns and enjoy the federal tax benefits
Each state manages their own 529 plan. So if a state does not adopt the K-12 rule than a withdrawl from the plan may be a qualified withdrawl as per the IRS but an unqualified withdrawal per the state for state income tax purposes.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 20, 2017, 12:34:39 PM
Fwiu it's only out for homeschool

That is correct. 529 can still be used for regular K-12.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 12:41:12 PM
Each state manages their own 529 plan. So if a state does not adopt the K-12 rule than a withdrawl from the plan may be a qualified withdrawl as per the IRS but an unqualified withdrawal per the state for state income tax purposes.
The deduction/credit is on the contribution, not the withdrawal. But even if that wasn't the case, what constitutes a qualified withdrawal is federally defined. There aren't separate rules for that for each state. CMIIW.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 20, 2017, 01:04:43 PM
The deduction/credit is on the contribution, not the withdrawal. But even if that wasn't the case, what constitutes a qualified withdrawal is federally defined. There aren't separate rules for that for each state. CMIIW.
Not according to the State I just spoke to. Each state manages their own withdrawal rules. For example NYS treats a 529 rollover from a NYS 529 plan to another States 529 plan as a taxable withdrawal on any earnings and will recapture all NYS deductions associated with the rollover (the contributions).
https://www.nysaves.org/home/why-ny-529-direct-plan/tax-benefits.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 01:45:23 PM
Not according to the State I just spoke to. Each state manages their own withdrawal rules. For example NYS treats a 529 rollover from a NYS 529 plan to another States 529 plan as a taxable withdrawal on any earnings and will recapture all NYS deductions associated with the rollover (the contributions).
https://www.nysaves.org/home/why-ny-529-direct-plan/tax-benefits.html
Let me give you an example. 5 years ago I started a 529 plan in Alaska, which has BH done very well. I pay no Alaska taxes, and if I withdraw to pay for school in CA then the gains will not be federally taxed. Regardless, they will be CA taxed.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 02:05:10 PM
Not according to the State I just spoke to. Each state manages their own withdrawal rules. For example NYS treats a 529 rollover from a NYS 529 plan to another States 529 plan as a taxable withdrawal on any earnings and will recapture all NYS deductions associated with the rollover (the contributions).
https://www.nysaves.org/home/why-ny-529-direct-plan/tax-benefits.html
Not that I don't believe you, but that link doesn't back up what you're saying. I'm a little surprised that NY (or any state for that matter) wouldn't have put out some sort of information pertaining to this if what you're saying is true.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 02:06:59 PM
Let me give you an example. 5 years ago I started a 529 plan in Alaska, which has BH done very well. I pay no Alaska taxes, and if I withdraw to pay for school in CA then the gains will not be federally taxed. Regardless, they will be CA taxed.
Is that true? That would imply that you have to be in the plan of the state you're filing state income taxes with to get the state tax-free benefit of 529's.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aro123 on December 20, 2017, 02:11:28 PM
and this is what is coming next

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/opinion/republican-tax-bill-senate-house.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
Is that true? That would imply that you have to be in the plan of the state you're filing state income taxes with to get the state tax-free benefit of 529's.
To the best of my knowledge
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Moshe123 on December 20, 2017, 02:37:42 PM
JUST IN: AT&T announces it will "pay a special $1,000 bonus to more than 200,000 AT&T U.S. employees" due to tax reform passage and will also increase US capital spending by $1 billion. https://t.co/jn8limUSe7
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 20, 2017, 02:39:49 PM
and this is what is coming next

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/opinion/republican-tax-bill-senate-house.html
Going by the tax foundations numbers, this bill increases the deficit by ~5%. This tax plan is not the issue nor does it do much to make the issue worse. We do not have a revenue isssue, we have a spending issue and it needs to be fixed regardless of this tax plan.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 20, 2017, 03:03:04 PM
JUST IN: AT&T announces it will "pay a special $1,000 bonus to more than 200,000 AT&T U.S. employees" due to tax reform passage and will also increase US capital spending by $1 billion. https://t.co/jn8limUSe7
How can that be, the media has been saying for months that the big evil corporations were going to keep the extra cash or use it for executive pay?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 03:04:57 PM
To the best of my knowledge
Did some googling - doesn't appear to be true, with the possible exception of Alabama.

Quote from: https://forum.savingforcollege.com/t/state-tax-on-qualified-withdraws/11752
I'm currently enrolled in the NY state plan but am a Minnesota resident. Will I have to pay Minnesota state income tax on qualified withdrawals?

No; there is no state tax on qualified 529 withdrawals.
Quote from: http://mpwealthadvisors.com/college_planning.pdf
Tax earnings on withdrawals from out-of-state plans. One state — Alabama — requires investors to include earnings on withdrawals from out-of-state 529 plans as part of their state taxable income even if withdrawals are used for qualified higher educational expenses (QHEEs).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 03:06:10 PM
How can that be, the media has been saying for months that the big evil corporations were going to keep the extra cash or use it for executive pay?
One company makes for a press release and no more. The proof, one way or the other, will be in the wage data over the next year or so.

ETA: I'm confident that the end result will be better than the D's are claiming and worse than the R's are claiming ;).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Sammy82 on December 20, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
My question is why isn't the market reacting positively? The past few weeks it was climbing like crazy and they were saying it's because of tax reform but yesterday and today when it actually is happening, the the markets are more or less flat. Doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 20, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
My question is why isn't the market reacting positively? The past few weeks it was climbing like crazy and they were saying it's because of tax reform but yesterday and today when it actually is happening, the the markets are more or less flat. Doesn't make sense to me.
Over the last few days, everyone knew it would happen.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 03:14:35 PM
JUST IN: AT&T announces it will "pay a special $1,000 bonus to more than 200,000 AT&T U.S. employees" due to tax reform passage and will also increase US capital spending by $1 billion. https://t.co/jn8limUSe7
They only did it because yesterday in the senate, one senator called them out in particuar. He said they only pay 8% tax, yet they cut 80,000 jobs. He was trying to prove that just because that corps pay cheap tax doesnt mean they will hire more employees. In fact they only pay 8% yet the cut thousands of jobs.
So good PR by at&t today.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: 000 on December 20, 2017, 03:16:42 PM
Another company says what they will do with the tax money they savehttps://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-applauds-tax-bill-with-300-million-workforce-related-and-charitable-investment-plan-2017-12-20 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-applauds-tax-bill-with-300-million-workforce-related-and-charitable-investment-plan-2017-12-20)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 20, 2017, 03:17:52 PM
My question is why isn't the market reacting positively? The past few weeks it was climbing like crazy and they were saying it's because of tax reform but yesterday and today when it actually is happening, the the markets are more or less flat. Doesn't make sense to me.
The sugar high only lasts so long.  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
They only did it because yesterday in the senate, one senator called them out in particuar. He said they only pay 8% tax, yet they cut 80,000 jobs. He was trying to prove that just because that corps pay cheap tax doesnt mean they will hire more employees. In fact they only pay 8% yet the cut thousands of jobs.
So good PR by at&t today.
http://fastnet.news/index.php/97-fnn/379-at-t-70-000
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 20, 2017, 03:19:59 PM
Another company says what they will do with the tax money they savehttps://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-applauds-tax-bill-with-300-million-workforce-related-and-charitable-investment-plan-2017-12-20 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing-applauds-tax-bill-with-300-million-workforce-related-and-charitable-investment-plan-2017-12-20)
Boeing (BA) announced late Monday a $18 billion repurchase program and a 20% dividend hike to $1.71, joining other big companies like Bank of America (BAC), Home Depot (HD) and Mastercard (MA) returning more capital to shareholders.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 03:22:23 PM
Boeing (BA) announced late Monday a $18 billion repurchase program and a 20% dividend hike to $1.71, joining other big companies like Bank of America (BAC), Home Depot (HD) and Mastercard (MA) returning more capital to shareholders.
That is GREAT news. I will give my charity through my choice of organizations and leave Boeing and their agendas out of it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 03:23:24 PM
My question is why isn't the market reacting positively? The past few weeks it was climbing like crazy and they were saying it's because of tax reform but yesterday and today when it actually is happening, the the markets are more or less flat. Doesn't make sense to me.
Buy the rumor sell the news.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 03:24:59 PM
ETA: I'm confident that the end result will be better than the D's are claiming and worse than the R's are claiming ;).
Bold.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 20, 2017, 03:25:55 PM
Buy the rumor sell the news.
Rumor=major tax cut for middle class
News=major tax cut for rich and corporations
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Sammy82 on December 20, 2017, 03:30:05 PM
http://fastnet.news/index.php/97-fnn/379-at-t-70-000
When's that article from? I cant seem to fins a date but the NYT article it quotes is from Feb 2016. Remember who was president then? I would think it may just be outdated.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 03:30:39 PM
Rumor=major tax cut for all
News=major tax cut for all

FTFY
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on December 20, 2017, 03:38:14 PM
Rumor=major tax cut for middle class
News=major tax cut for rich and corporations
You seem to have an issue with corporations. Why don't you take one out to a dark alley and beat the living h... out of it!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 20, 2017, 03:42:49 PM
You seem to have an issue with corporations. Why don't you take one out to a dark alley and beat the living h... out of it!
I like corporations. I have made a massive amount of money off them in my lifetime. That doesn't change the facts.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 20, 2017, 03:46:48 PM
They only did it because yesterday in the senate, one senator called them out in particuar. He said they only pay 8% tax, yet they cut 80,000 jobs. He was trying to prove that just because that corps pay cheap tax doesnt mean they will hire more employees. In fact they only pay 8% yet the cut thousands of jobs.
So good PR by at&t today.
It was actually Senator Schumer yesterday who said At&t cut 80,000 jobs even though they have had a 8% rate the last 10 years.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?438760-13/senate-debate-republican-tax-reform-bill&start=655

By TEXT, type in the word 80,000, and it will take you to his speech arguing against trickle down economics.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 04:13:35 PM
Bold.
But do you disagree?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 04:18:08 PM
Did some googling - doesn't appear to be true, with the possible exception of Alabama.
Awesome. Thanks. So what's the advantage of in state plans in states that don't allow deduction?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on December 20, 2017, 04:46:54 PM
Awesome. Thanks. So what's the advantage of in state plans in states that don't allow deduction?
There's lots of sites that go through the pros and cons of each plan. There may be some states where choosing your in-state plan makes basically no sense in comparison to some of the other options.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: thaber on December 20, 2017, 04:52:19 PM
There's lots of sites that go through the pros and cons of each plan. There may be some states where choosing your in-state plan makes basically no sense in comparison to some of the other options.
That's what I recall when I looked into it, like in 2012.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: aygart on December 20, 2017, 04:53:01 PM
But do you disagree?
I agree that this is most likely
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 23, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
Does the title of this thread stand correct in this scenario? (25% bracket)

A family of 7 children would get an exemption of $37,350 (9 people x $4150 exemption in 2018) under the current law.
With the new tax law he will now save an additional $7000 due to the additional $1000 child tax credit per child (assuming his kids are all under 17). That new $7000 is worth a $28,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $9,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.

More so, if 3 of his kids are over 17, he would get a new $4000 exemption for the first 4 kids, plus $500 for each of the 3 older kids. That new $5,500 is worth a $22,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $15,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 23, 2017, 08:58:50 PM


Does the title of this thread stand correct in this scenario? (25% bracket)

A family of 7 children would get an exemption of $37,350 (9 people x $4150 exemption in 2018) under the current law.
With the new tax law he will now save an additional $7000 due to the additional $1000 child tax credit per child (assuming his kids are all under 17). That new $7000 is worth a $28,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $9,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.

More so, if 3 of his kids are over 17, he would get a new $4000 exemption for the first 4 kids, plus $500 for each of the 3 older kids. That new $5,500 is worth a $22,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $15,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.
someone making enough money to be in that bracket, would have been phased out of the child tax credit so they are now getting a $14,000 credit that they would not have gotten.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: precise on December 23, 2017, 09:18:03 PM
Does the title of this thread stand correct in this scenario? (25% bracket)

A family of 7 children would get an exemption of $37,350 (9 people x $4150 exemption in 2018) under the current law.
With the new tax law he will now save an additional $7000 due to the additional $1000 child tax credit per child (assuming his kids are all under 17). That new $7000 is worth a $28,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $9,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.

More so, if 3 of his kids are over 17, he would get a new $4000 exemption for the first 4 kids, plus $500 for each of the 3 older kids. That new $5,500 is worth a $22,000 "deduction" for someone in the 25% bracket.
That is still $15,350 short of what he would've received in Personal Exemptions.
And don't forget the actual rates were slashed as well..
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 23, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
someone making enough money to be in that bracket, would have been phased out of the child tax credit so they are now getting a $14,000 credit that they would not have gotten.


The 25% bracket starts at $77,000. Someone who makes $100,000 was eligible for child tax credit.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Sport on December 23, 2017, 09:25:32 PM
The 25% bracket starts at $77,000. Someone who makes $100,000 was eligible for child tax credit.
25% of whats above 77k
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 23, 2017, 09:27:22 PM
The 25% bracket starts at $77,000. Someone who makes $100,000 was eligible for child tax credit.
In the new tax plan, there is no 25% bracket, there is a 24% bracket that starts at 165k for married.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 23, 2017, 09:27:46 PM
25% of whats above 77k
Taxable income
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 23, 2017, 09:29:04 PM
In the new tax plan, there is no 25% bracket, there is a 24% bracket that starts at 165k for married.
In the old plan
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=68913.msg1855949#msg1855949
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 23, 2017, 09:39:02 PM
In the old plan
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=68913.msg1855949#msg1855949
You're right. I just ran the numbers in the calculator, someone making 100k with 7 kids taking the standard deduction, is saving $4756. If he itemizes, he'll still save but not as much, it all depends on the details.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 23, 2017, 11:26:55 PM
The 25% bracket starts at $77,000. Someone who makes $100,000 was eligible for child tax credit.
The phaseout for child tax credit began at 110 AGI. Someone with personal exemptions plus minimum of standard deduction totaling close to 50k, all of which was running through 25% bracket, would have AGI well above 110.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 23, 2017, 11:30:58 PM
someone making enough money to be in that bracket, would have been phased out of the child tax credit so they are now getting a $14,000 credit that they would not have gotten.
Not completely true, because you need to compare personal exemption times marginal tax rate under the old way, to the extra 1000 credit per child under the new way. For most people it's a gain, but not a full 1000 gain
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2017, 06:25:30 PM
What about medical insurance premiums for 2018? Can you prepay 12 months of 2018 health insurance premiums, so that when you itemize in 2017, you will have 2 years (2017-2018) health insurance premiums on your 2017 itemized deductions?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2017, 07:46:24 PM
What about medical insurance premiums for 2018? Can you prepay 12 months of 2018 health insurance premiums, so that when you itemize in 2017, you will have 2 years (2017-2018) health insurance premiums on your 2017 itemized deductions?
Anyone?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 26, 2017, 08:04:55 PM
What about medical insurance premiums for 2018? Can you prepay 12 months of 2018 health insurance premiums, so that when you itemize in 2017, you will have 2 years (2017-2018) health insurance premiums on your 2017 itemized deductions?
It's an old strategy called bunching, where if your medical expenses don't reach the threshold, you do on and off years and so you only have 1 threshold for 2 years of medical expenses. Can also be used for standard vs itemizing.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 26, 2017, 08:16:35 PM
It's an old strategy called bunching, where if your medical expenses don't reach the threshold, you do on and off years and so you only have 1 threshold for 2 years of medical expenses. Can also be used for standard vs itemizing.
So you are saying that you know that it's definitely been utilized by others. That's good to know. Don't know why I never thought of it before?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 26, 2017, 08:35:45 PM
So you are saying that you know that it's definitely been utilized by others. That's good to know. Don't know why I never thought of it before?
More helpful this year than the past few years now that threshold is back down to 7.5% of AGI
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 26, 2017, 08:38:18 PM
More helpful this year than the past few years now that threshold is back down to 7.5% of AGI
You mean next year, I believe.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: mr12 on December 26, 2017, 08:44:52 PM
You mean next year, I believe.
Nope. Bill changes it for 2017 and 2018 tax year.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/16/gop-tax-bill-expands-medical-expense-deduction-for-two-years.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yitzf on December 26, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
So you are saying that you know that it's definitely been utilized by others. That's good to know. Don't know why I never thought of it before?
I'm not saying that, but it's definitely out there. Google it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on December 27, 2017, 05:49:19 PM
For Partnerships less then 315k,
will the passive partner also be eligible for the 20% pass through? Any source?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 05:22:18 AM
For Partnerships less then 315k,
will the passive partner also be eligible for the 20% pass through? Any source?
It has to be on "qualified business income".

If this is very strictly defined, it may preclude certain investment income.. otherwise, passive pass through income of qbi has the deduction.

Also, apparently guaranteed payments to partners are not included in the w2 limitation. (I think)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 05:31:17 AM
SEC. 199A. QUALIFIED BUSINESS INCOME.

“(a) In General.—In the case of a taxpayer other than a corporation, there shall be allowed as a deduction for any taxable year an amount equal to the lesser of—

“(1) the combined qualified business income amount of the taxpayer, or

“(2) an amount equal to 17.4 percent of the excess (if any) of—

“(A) the taxable income of the taxpayer for the taxable year, over

“(B) any net capital gain (as defined in section 1(h)) of the taxpayer for the taxable year.

“(b) Combined Qualified Business Income Amount.—For purposes of this section—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘combined qualified business income amount’ means, with respect to any taxable year, an amount equal to—

“(A) the sum of the amounts determined under paragraph (2) for each qualified trade or business carried on by the taxpayer, plus

“(B) 17.4 percent of the aggregate amount of the qualified REIT dividends and qualified cooperative dividends of the taxpayer for the taxable year.

“(2) DETERMINATION OF DEDUCTIBLE AMOUNT FOR EACH TRADE OR BUSINESS.—The amount determined under this paragraph with respect to any qualified trade or business is the lesser of—

“(A) 17.4 percent of the taxpayer's qualified business income with respect to the qualified trade or business, or

“(B) 50 percent of the W-2 wages with respect to the qualified trade or business.

“(3) MODIFICATIONS TO THE WAGE LIMIT BASED ON TAXABLE INCOME.—

“(A) EXCEPTION FROM WAGE LIMIT.—In the case of any taxpayer whose taxable income for the taxable year does not exceed the threshold amount, paragraph (2) shall be applied without regard to subparagraph (B).

“(B) PHASE-IN OF LIMIT FOR CERTAIN TAXPAYERS.—

“(i) IN GENERAL.—If—

“(I) the taxable income of a taxpayer for any taxable year exceeds the threshold amount, but does not exceed the sum of the threshold amount plus $50,000 ($100,000 in the case of a joint return), and

“(II) the amount determined under paragraph (2)(B) (determined without regard to this subparagraph) with respect to any qualified trade or business carried on by the taxpayer is less than the amount determined under paragraph (2)(A) with respect such trade or business,

then paragraph (2) shall be applied with respect to such trade or business without regard to subparagraph (B) thereof and by reducing the amount determined under subparagraph (A) thereof by the amount determined under clause (ii).

“(ii) AMOUNT OF REDUCTION.—The amount determined under this subparagraph is the amount which bears the same ratio to the excess amount as—

“(I) the amount by which the taxpayer's taxable income for the taxable year exceeds the threshold amount, bears to

“(II) $50,000 ($100,000 in the case of a joint return).

“(iii) EXCESS AMOUNT.—For purposes of clause (ii), the excess amount is the excess of—

“(I) the amount determined under paragraph (2)(A) (determined without regard to this paragraph), over

“(II) the amount determined under paragraph (2)(B) (determined without regard to this paragraph).

“(4) WAGES, ETC.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘W-2 wages’ means, with respect to any person for any taxable year of such person, the amounts described in paragraphs (3) and (8) of section 6051(a) paid by such person with respect to employment of employees by such person during the calendar year ending during such taxable year.

“(B) LIMITATION TO WAGES ATTRIBUTABLE TO QUALIFIED BUSINESS INCOME.—Such term shall not include any amount which is not properly allocable to qualified business income for purposes of subsection (c)(1).

“(C) RETURN REQUIREMENT.—Such term shall not include any amount which is not properly included in a return filed with the Social Security Administration on or before the 60th day after the due date (including extensions) for such return.

“(5) ACQUISITIONS, DISPOSITIONS, AND SHORT TAXABLE YEARS.—The Secretary shall provide for the application of this subsection in cases of a short taxable year or where the taxpayer acquires, or disposes of, the major portion of a trade or business or the major portion of a separate unit of a trade or business during the taxable year.

“(c) Qualified Business Income.—For purposes of this section—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘qualified business income’ means, for any taxable year, the net amount of qualified items of income, gain, deduction, and loss with respect to any qualified trade or business of the taxpayer.

“(2) CARRYOVER OF LOSSES.—If the net amount of qualified income, gain, deduction, and loss with respect to qualified trade or businesses of the taxpayer amount for any taxable year is less than zero, such amount shall be treated as a loss from a qualified trade or business in the succeeding taxable year.

“(3) QUALIFIED ITEMS OF INCOME, GAIN, DEDUCTION, AND LOSS.—For purposes of this subsection—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘qualified items of income, gain, deduction, and loss’ means items of income, gain, deduction, and loss to the extent such items are—

“(i) effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the United States (within the meaning of section 864(c), determined by substituting ‘qualified trade or business (within the meaning of section 199A)’ for ‘nonresident alien individual or a foreign corporation’ or for ‘a foreign corporation’ each place it appears), and

“(ii) included or allowed in determining taxable income for the taxable year.

“(B) EXCEPTIONS.—The following investment items shall not be taken into account as a qualified item of income, gain, deduction, or loss:

“(i) Any item of short-term capital gain, short-term capital loss, long-term capital gain, or long-term capital loss.

“(ii) Any dividend, income equivalent to a dividend, or payment in lieu of dividends described in section 954(c)(1)(G).

“(iii) Any interest income other than interest income which is properly allocable to a trade or business.

“(iv) Any item of gain or loss described in subparagraph (C) or (D) of section 954(c)(1) (applied by substituting ‘qualified trade or business’ for ‘controlled foreign corporation’).

“(v) Any item of income, gain, deduction, or loss taken into account under section 954(c)(1)(F) (determined without regard to clause (ii) thereof and other than items attributable to notional principal contracts entered into in transactions qualifying under section 1221(a)(7)).

“(vi) Any amount received from an annuity which is not received in connection with the trade or business.

“(vii) Any item of deduction or loss properly allocable to an amount described in any of the preceding clauses.

“(4) TREATMENT OF REASONABLE COMPENSATION AND GUARANTEED PAYMENTS.—Qualified business income shall not include—

“(A) reasonable compensation paid to the taxpayer by any qualified trade or business of the taxpayer for services rendered with respect to the trade or business,

“(B) any guaranteed payment described in section 707(c) paid to a partner for services rendered with respect to the trade or business, and

“(C) to the extent provided in regulations, any payment described in section 707(a) to a partner for services rendered with respect to the trade or business.

“(d) Qualified Trade Or Business.—For purposes of this section—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘qualified trade or business’ means any trade or business other than a specified service trade or business.

“(2) SPECIFIED SERVICE TRADE OR BUSINESS.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘specified service trade or business’ means—

“(i) any trade or business involving the performance of services described in section 1202(e)(3)(A), including investing and investment management, trading, or dealing in securities (as defined in section 475(c)(2)), partnership interests, or commodities (as defined in section 475(e)(2)).

“(3) EXCEPTION FOR SPECIFIED SERVICE BUSINESSES BASED ON TAXPAYER'S INCOME.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—If, for any taxable year, the taxable income of any taxpayer is less than the sum of the threshold amount plus $50,000 ($100,000 in the case of a joint return), then—

“(i) the exception under paragraph (1) shall not apply to specified service trades or businesses of the taxpayer for the taxable year, but

“(ii) only the applicable percentage of qualified items of income, gain, deduction, or loss, and the W-2 wages, of the taxpayer allocable to such specified service trades or businesses shall be taken into account in computing the qualified business income and W-2 wages of the taxpayer for the taxable year for purposes of applying this section.

“(B) APPLICABLE PERCENTAGE.—For purposes of subparagraph (A), the term ‘applicable percentage’ means, with respect to any taxable year, 100 percent reduced (not below zero) by the percentage equal to the ratio of—

“(i) the taxable income of the taxpayer for the taxable year in excess of the threshold amount, bears to

“(ii) $50,000 ($100,000 in the case of a joint return).

“(e) Other Definitions.—For purposes of this section—

“(1) TAXABLE INCOME.—Taxable income shall be computed without regard to the deduction allowable under this section.

“(2) THRESHOLD AMOUNT.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘threshold amount’ means $250,000 (200 percent of such amount in the case of a joint return).

“(B) INFLATION ADJUSTMENT.—In the case of any taxable year beginning after 2018, the dollar amount in paragraph (1) shall be increased by an amount equal to—

“(i) such dollar amount, multiplied by

“(ii) the cost-of-living adjustment determined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar year in which the taxable year begins.

If any amount as increased under the preceding sentence is not a multiple of $1,000, such amount shall be rounded to the nearest multiple of $1,000.

“(3) QUALIFIED REIT DIVIDEND.—The term ‘qualified REIT dividend’ means any dividend from a real estate investment trust received during the taxable year which—

“(A) is not a capital gain dividend, as defined in section 857(b)(3), and

“(B) is not qualified dividend income, as defined in section 1(h)(11).

“(4) QUALIFIED COOPERATIVE DIVIDEND.—The term ‘qualified cooperative dividend’ means any patronage dividend (as defined in section 1388(a)), any per-unit retain allocation (as defined in section 1388(f)), and any qualified written notice of allocation (as defined in section 1388(c)), or any similar amount received from an organization described in subparagraph (B)(ii), which—

“(A) is includible in gross income, and

“(B) is received from—

“(i) an organization or corporation described in section 501(c)(12) or 1381(a), or

“(ii) an organization which is governed under this title by the rules applicable to cooperatives under this title before the enactment of subchapter T.

“(f) Special Rules.—

“(1) APPLICATION TO PARTNERSHIPS AND S CORPORATIONS.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—In the case of a partnership or S corporation—

“(i) this section shall be applied at the partner or shareholder level,

“(ii) each partner or shareholder shall take into account such person's allocable share of each qualified item of income, gain, deduction, and loss, and

“(iii) each partner or shareholder shall be treated for purposes of subsection (b) as having W-2 wages for the taxable year in an amount equal to such person's allocable share of the W-2 wages of the partnership or S corporation for the taxable year (as determined under regulations prescribed by the Secretary).

For purposes of clause (iii), a partner's or shareholder's allocable share of W-2 wages shall be determined in the same manner as the partner's or shareholder's allocable share of wage expenses. For purposes of this subparagraph, in the case of an S corporation, an allocable share shall be the shareholder's pro rata share of an item.

“(B) APPLICATION TO TRUSTS AND ESTATES.—This section shall not apply to any trust or estate.

“(C) TREATMENT OF TRADES OR BUSINESS IN PUERTO RICO.—

“(i) IN GENERAL.—In the case of any taxpayer with qualified business income from sources within the commonwealth of Puerto Rico, if all such income is taxable under section 1 for such taxable year, then for purposes of determining the qualified business income of such taxpayer for such taxable year, the term ‘United States’ shall include the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

“(ii) SPECIAL RULE FOR APPLYING WAGE LIMITATION.—In the case of any taxpayer described in clause (i), the determination of W-2 wages of such taxpayer with respect to any qualified trade or business conducted in Puerto Rico shall be made without regard to any exclusion under section 3401(a)(8) for remuneration paid for services in Puerto Rico.

“(2) COORDINATION WITH MINIMUM TAX.—For purposes of determining alternative minimum taxable income under section 55, qualified business income shall be determined without regard to any adjustments under sections 56 through 59.

“(3) DEDUCTION LIMITED TO INCOME TAXES.—The deduction under subsection (a) shall only be allowed for purposes of this chapter.

“(4) REGULATIONS.—The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary to carry out the purposes of this section, including regulations—

“(A) for requiring or restricting the allocation of items and wages under this section and such reporting requirements as the Secretary determines appropriate, and

“(B) for the application of this section in the case of tiered entities.

“(g) Termination.—This section shall not apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2025.”.

(b) Accuracy-Related Penalty On Determination Of Applicable Percentage.—Section 6662(d)(1) is amended by inserting at the end the following new subparagraph:

“(C) SPECIAL RULE FOR TAXPAYERS CLAIMING SECTION 199A DEDUCTION.—In the case of any taxpayer who claims the deduction allowed under section 199A for the taxable year, subparagraph (A) shall be applied by substituting ‘5 percent’ for ‘10 percent’.”.

(c) Conforming Amendments.—

(1) Section 170(b)(2)(D) is amended by striking “, and” at the end of clause (iv), by redesignating clause (v) as clause (vi), and by inserting after clause (iv) the following new clause:

“(v) section 199A, and”.

(2) Section 172(d) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:

“(8) QUALIFIED BUSINESS INCOME DEDUCTION.—The deduction under section 199A shall not be allowed.”.

(3) Section 246(b)(1) is amended by inserting “199A,” before “243(a)(1)”.

(4) Section 613(a) is amended by inserting “and without the deduction under section 199A” after “and without the deduction under section 199”.

(5) Section 613A(d)(1) is amended by redesignating subparagraphs (C), (D), and (E) as subparagraphs (D), (E), and (F), respectively, and by inserting after subparagraph (B), the following new subparagraph:

“(C) any deduction allowable under section 199A,”.

(6) The table of sections for part VI of subchapter B of chapter 1 is amended by inserting at the end the following new item:


“Sec. 199A. Qualified business income.”.

(d) Effective Date.—The amendments made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017.

Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: Boruch999 on December 28, 2017, 06:07:16 AM
A hedge fund who's income is entirely short-term capital gains is not eligible for the reduction, is that correct?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 09:27:44 AM
A hedge fund who's income is entirely short-term capital gains is not eligible for the reduction, is that correct?
Correct.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: CPA on December 28, 2017, 09:37:52 AM
that long piece which nobody can understand is from the original Senate bill not what passed.
Keep in mind the income limits are on the the individual not the Partnership. The deduction is taken on the personal return. You can have one partner in a partnership eligible for the 20% deduction while another is not.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: gingyguy on December 28, 2017, 11:28:21 AM
seems like prepaying municipal taxes may not work unless you were officially assessedand given ur tax bill
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/business/prepaying-your-property-taxes-irs-cautions-it-might-not-pay-off.html
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 28, 2017, 12:29:07 PM
seems like prepaying municipal taxes may not work unless you were officially assessedand given ur tax bill
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/business/prepaying-your-property-taxes-irs-cautions-it-might-not-pay-off.html
Even if it is assessed it can trigger an audit...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: yelped on December 28, 2017, 12:40:31 PM
Even if it is assessed it can trigger an audit...
In a year when everyone will be doing the same thing?  :o
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: shapsam on December 28, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
In a year when everyone will be doing the same thing?  :o
The IRS said they'll audit to make sure that it was assessed already. Obviously they can't audit everyone that does it but not worth the risk in my opinion (even if your taxes are kosher it's not worth the headache).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 01:37:35 PM
How to pre pay NJ 2018 tax? Website doesn't have year 2018 in the drop-down.. is mailing a check good?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: EJB on December 28, 2017, 01:39:50 PM
How to pre pay NJ 2018 tax? Website doesn't have year 2018 in the drop-down.. is mailing a check good?

State income tax? That won't work...
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 28, 2017, 01:39:51 PM
How to pre pay NJ 2018 tax? Website doesn't have year 2018 in the drop-down.. is mailing a check good?
You can't prepay income tax.
If the property tax is not assessed, you can't prepay it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 01:51:59 PM
State income tax? That won't work...
Why?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on December 28, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
Why?
They specifically put it into the law to stop it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on December 28, 2017, 02:11:03 PM
They specifically put it into the law to stop it.
Alrighty
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on January 03, 2018, 07:29:33 PM
JUST IN: AT&T announces it will "pay a special $1,000 bonus to more than 200,000 AT&T U.S. employees" due to tax reform passage and will also increase US capital spending by $1 billion. https://t.co/jn8limUSe7
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/att-sued-over-layoffs-after-promising-more-investment-because-of-tax-cut/?amp=1
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: thaber on January 04, 2018, 11:54:43 PM
https://advocacy.ou.org/listen-conference-call-529-account-changes/
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: aygart on January 10, 2018, 01:00:42 PM
Lots of company for @ChaimMoskowitz The big risk in this for the Ds is how opinions will change when they see it is not true.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/what-if-republicans-cut-middle-class-taxes-and-nobody-knew/article/2645429
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: Deal Guy on January 13, 2018, 08:46:35 PM
Special for Dan.
http://www.dispatch.com/news/20180113/ohio-taxpayers-can-get-break-for-double-contribution-to-529-college-savings-plan
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on January 16, 2018, 08:12:29 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/cuomo-says-new-york-to-alter-tax-law-to-thwart-federal-changes
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: aygart on January 16, 2018, 08:17:32 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/cuomo-says-new-york-to-alter-tax-law-to-thwart-federal-changes
And this is what will keep businesses in New York?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 16, 2018, 08:22:47 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/cuomo-says-new-york-to-alter-tax-law-to-thwart-federal-changes
Guess what cuomo, wages will go down by the exact amount of the net cost to businesses.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: cholent on January 16, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Guess what cuomo, wages will go down by the exact amount of the net cost to businesses.
Of course they will, that's the point. But real take home wages will stay the same
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: aygart on January 16, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
Of course they will, that's the point. But real take home wages will stay the same
Which will hurt the earned income credits of many
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: cholent on January 16, 2018, 08:38:33 PM
Which will hurt the earned income credits of many
And help many others by bringing down their income so they fall into a lower bracket without actually making less money. And others may now qualify for the eitc if they didn't previously
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 10:53:40 AM
Time for Trump and the Trumpsters to put up or shut up. Call for a $15 minimum wage (like Amazon) if you really care about the low/middle class!!!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 10:56:09 AM
Time for Trump and the Trumpsters to put up or shut up. Call for a $15 minimum wage (like Amazon) if you really care about the low/middle class!!!
https://www.dailywire.com/news/33543/policy-unintended-consequences-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/33543/policy-unintended-consequences-ben-shapiro)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 10:58:19 AM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/33543/policy-unintended-consequences-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/33543/policy-unintended-consequences-ben-shapiro)
OK if you are not going to put up better to just shut up!  :P
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 11:04:10 AM
OK if you are not going to put up better to just shut up!  :P
Raising the minimum wage has been proven to hurt the people we are trying to help by leading to layoffs, lack of new jobs, etc. A minimum wage only helps those who actually get a job, but who cares if it actually does any good, as long as it makes us feel good.

This is all besides for the higher prices and worse service that we all get.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:09:25 AM
Raising the minimum wage has been proven to hurt the people we are trying to help by leading to layoffs, lack of new jobs, etc. A minimum wage only helps those who actually get a job, but who cares if it actually does any good, as long as it makes us feel good.
#fakenews!!!
Amazon raised the minimum wage because they can't get enough employees. Don't be fooled they did this out of kindness.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 11:30:53 AM
#fakenews!!!
Amazon raised the minimum wage because they can't get enough employees. Don't be fooled they did this out of kindness.
In certain locales $15 is already the legal minimum wage. So it allows them to have a uniform policy while attracting workers. However, they did take away bonuses in exchange.

Attention Bernie Sanders and his ilk. #There'sNoFreeLunch.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 11:31:39 AM
Amazon raised the minimum wage because they can't get enough employees. Don't be fooled they did this out of kindness.
Exactly, and so will everyone else who can't get enough employees. There is no reason for the government to force them.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:33:40 AM
In certain locales $15 is already the legal minimum wage. So it allows them to have a uniform policy while attracting workers. However, they did take away bonuses in exchange.
Without getting into all the details in the short run it was a wash for Amazon. They also gave raises to those making $15 already. They are talking about some type of stock purchasing plan.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:36:01 AM
Exactly, and so will everyone else who can't get enough employees. There is no reason for the government to force them.
$7.25 is a disgrace for a minimum wage. I don't expect you to support anything that helps minorities or those at the low end of the scale. After all you support sweat shops.  >:(
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 11:41:17 AM
$7.25 is a disgrace for a minimum wage. I don't expect you to support anything that helps minorities or those at the low end of the scale. After all you support sweat shops.  >:(
I agree, we should completely abolish the minimum wage instead of telling people they are not allowed to work unless they find an employer who is willing to pay more. Minimum wage actually allows racism by taking away the incentive for a racist to hire someone he is racist against, because regardless he must pay the same wage.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:44:04 AM
I agree, we should completely abolish the minimum wage instead of telling people they are not allowed to work unless they find an employer who is willing to pay more. Minimum wage actually allows racism by taking away the incentive for a racist to hire someone he is racist against, because regardless he must pay the same wage.
History has shown the racism of businesses. You are promoting these same views. Speaks volumes of where you stand on racism.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 11:51:01 AM
History has shown the racism of businesses. You are promoting these same views. Speaks volumes of where you stand on racism.
Let me explain it to you with an example so maybe you'll try to understand instead of calling me names. Let's say there is a racist business owner, and he needs an employee. The white guy is only willing to work for $11 an hour while a black guy is willing to work for $10. He now has a choice of being racist and hiring the white guy or saving money and being able to compete better with his non-racist competitor. If the government then goes and creates a minimum wage of $11 you just took away the financial consequence of being racist, and now the black guy won't have the job at all.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:56:30 AM
Let me explain it to you with an example so maybe you'll try to understand instead of calling me names. Let's say there is a racist business owner, and he needs an employee. The white guy is only willing to work for $11 an hour while a black guy is willing to work for $10. He now has a choice of being racist and hiring the white guy or saving money and being able to compete better with his non-racist competitor. If the government then goes and creates a minimum wage of $11 you just took away the financial consequence of being racist, and now the black guy won't have the job at all.
I am not calling you anything. I am stating your views accurately. You tried to justify sweatshops and now you are trying to justify no minimum wage. Any fair person can see right through this insane logic.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 12:41:47 PM
I am not calling you anything. I am stating your views accurately. You tried to justify sweatshops and now you are trying to justify no minimum wage. Any fair person can see right through this insane logic.
Again, you refuse to look at facts, and instead would rather do what makes you feel good regardless of whether or not it is good.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:03:13 PM
Again, you refuse to look at facts, and instead would rather do what makes you feel good regardless of whether or not it is good.
You want to twist the facts to suit you. Raising the minimum wage helps the low income and minorities. That is the facts. If you don't believe them then ask them. You want to believe the business owners that say this is not true. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid!!!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:06:32 PM
You want to twist the facts to suit you. Raising the minimum wage helps the low income and minorities. That is the facts. If you don't believe them then ask them. You want to believe the business owners that say this is not true. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid!!!
Again you won't look out of your narrow view, of course some people are helped by a higher minimum wage, but you are ignoring all those that are hurt by it, and ironically the ones who need the most help are the ones who are hurt the most.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:12:45 PM
Again you won't look out of your narrow view, of course some people are helped by a higher minimum wage, but you are ignoring all those that are hurt by it, and ironically the ones who need the most help are the ones who are hurt the most.
You made the same argument for sweatshops. Thank G-d there are not many nutcases like that left making the same argument.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
I agree, we should completely abolish the minimum wage instead of telling people they are not allowed to work unless they find an employer who is willing to pay more. Minimum wage actually allows racism by taking away the incentive for a racist to hire someone he is racist against, because regardless he must pay the same wage.
Because what good are anti discrimination laws
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2018, 01:22:28 PM
Again you won't look out of your narrow view, of course some people are helped by a higher minimum wage, but you are ignoring all those that are hurt by it, and ironically the ones who need the most help are the ones who are hurt the most.
CEOs are hurt by it?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:23:44 PM
Because what good are anti discrimination laws
...but don't anti-discrimination laws hurt those they are trying to protect?  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2018, 01:24:17 PM
...but don't anti-discrimination laws hurt those they are trying to protect?  :)
They’re also supposed to protect CEO’s ?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:25:41 PM
CEOs are hurt by it?
The people who are laid off / can't find a job are hurt by it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
The people who are laid off / can't find a job are hurt by it.
Until they find a new job with the higher overall wages and minimal impact on unemployment.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:28:12 PM
Until they find a new job with the higher overall wages and minimal impact on unemployment.
History has shown that it has a real effect on job growth.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2018, 01:28:44 PM
History has shown that it has a real effect on job growth.
So if it improves job growth it’s a win win
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:30:04 PM
The people who are laid off / can't find a job are hurt by it.
Maybe you didn't hear. Minority unemployment is at a historic low.
The problem with your logic is Amazon raised their MW to 15 and still needs employees.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:33:20 PM
Maybe you didn't hear. Minority unemployment is at a historic low.
The problem with your logic is Amazon raised their MW to 15 and still needs employees.
So why do we need a mandated minimum wage? The market seems to be doing a good job making sure everyone can get a good paying job.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:36:16 PM
So why do we need a mandated minimum wage?
The same reason you need unions. History has shown us that businesses are scumbags. They care about the bottom line and not the welfare of their employees.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
The same reason you need unions. History has shown us that businesses are scumbags. They care about the bottom line and not the welfare of their employees.
So why won't their employees go work for someone who pays better like amazon?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:41:10 PM
So why won't their employees go work for someone who pays better like amazon?
Amazon can only hire so many people. Why are you asking such idiotic questions?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 01:43:07 PM
Maybe you didn't hear. Minority unemployment is at a historic low.
The problem with your logic is Amazon raised their MW to 15 and still needs employees.

At $15 minimum wage, there are plenty of people that will lose eligibility for programs such as Medicaid, Foodstamps, Welfare, etc. However, at least in states like NY, that money will still be spent by making people who are not citizens or permanent residents of the US eligible for government-funded health coverage which mirrors Medicaid (for example, people with a student visa can get NY Essential Plan at $0 premiums and $0 co-pays if they qualify based on income (which supposedly they would, as they aren't allowed to work in the US).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 01:44:21 PM
Amazon can only hire so many people. Why are you asking such idiotic questions?

And they can easily afford the $15/hour, while small business struggle with the elevated minimum wage (and all associated employment and regulatory costs such as employer FICA, Workers Comp, etc.).
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
Amazon can only hire so many people. Why are you asking such idiotic questions?
Please stop calling me names just because i disagree with you. Why is it that I never accused you of trying to hurt the people who get hurt when the minimum wage is increased, but when you disagree with me, the only reason why I disagree is because I am evil and racist?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:46:01 PM
At $15 minimum wage, there are plenty of people that will lose eligibility for programs such as Medicaid, Foodstamps, Welfare, etc. However, at least in states like NY, that money will still be spent by making people who are not citizens or permanent residents of the US eligible for government-funded health coverage which mirrors Medicaid (for example, people with a student visa can get NY Essential Plan at $0 premiums and $0 co-pays if they qualify based on income (which supposedly they would, as they aren't allowed to work in the US).
There is no argument that some will be in a catch 22 situation. You fix those situations, not use it as an excuse for not raising the MW.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
Please stop calling me names just because i disagree with you. Why is it that I never accused you of trying to hurt the people who get hurt when the minimum wage is increased, but when you disagree with me, the only reason why I disagree is because I am evil and racist?
I did not call you any names. I call the question idiotic. I did not call you an idiot.
When you ask a question that you already know the answer to what would you call the question?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:50:32 PM
I did not call you any names. I call the question idiotic. I did not call you an idiot.
Same thing.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 01:51:45 PM
There is no argument that some will be in a catch 22 situation. You fix those situations, not use it as an excuse for not raising the MW.
You just showed the fault in your logic. You start with a preconceived idea that there must be a minimum wage, therefore anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot who doesn't care about the poor.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 01:51:59 PM
There is no argument that some will be in a catch 22 situation. You fix those situations, not use it as an excuse for not raising the MW.
SOME????

I know of plenty that will have issues with NYC minimum wage at $15 (even at $13.50 for "small employers" - defined as under 10 employees) there's an issue.

And can you see how making employers with 10 or more employees required to pay $15 while under 10 is at $13.50 could hurt employment?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:05:25 PM
You just showed the fault in your logic. You start with a preconceived idea that there must be a minimum wage, therefore anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot who doesn't care about the poor.
That's like saying I started with a preconceived notion that sun will rise tomorrow. Last time I checked no one was making the argument to get rid on the MW.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:06:45 PM
Same thing.
Attacking a statement or question is not the same as attacking the person. A smart person can ask an idiotic question. I have even done it.  :P
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:09:06 PM
And can you see how making employers with 10 or more employees required to pay $15 while under 10 is at $13.50 could hurt employment?
Someone always gets hurt but you have to look at the big picture. Trump puts on tariffs and some get hurt. The big picture, is the country better off.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 02:11:54 PM
Someone always gets hurt but you have to look at the big picture. Trump puts on tariffs and some get hurt. The big picture, is the country better off.

Wow. I managed to elicit good words about Trump from CM! Talking about unintended consequences!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:15:11 PM
Wow. I managed to elicit good words about Trump from CM! Talking about unintended consequences!
This will come as shock to you because of all the #fakenews here. On several occasions I have complimented Trump. On tariffs we are basically on the same page.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 04, 2018, 02:17:16 PM
That's like saying I started with a preconceived notion that sun will rise tomorrow. Last time I checked no one was making the argument to get rid on the MW.
For the reasons I stated earlier, I would get rid of the minimum wage, and I certainly wouldn't raise it.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 02:17:29 PM
This will come as shock to you because of all the #fakenews here. On several occasions I have complimented Trump. On tariffs we are basically on the same page.

I'm not going to comment about tariffs at this point, but what amazed me was that I was able to elicit from you a favorable comment about Trump.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:18:37 PM
For the reasons I stated earlier, I would get rid of the minimum wage, and I certainly wouldn't raise it.
I understand you would get rid of it. I am glad that view is hardly if ever heard.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:20:44 PM
I'm not going to comment about tariffs at this point, but what amazed me was that I was able to elicit from you a favorable comment about Trump.
If that is the way you look at it I am OK with it. The problem is the statement was neutral. For the record I am in favor of tariffs to level out the trade imbalance.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 02:41:48 PM
If that is the way you look at it I am OK with it. The problem is the statement was neutral. For the record I am in favor of tariffs to level out the trade imbalance.
I saw that. Was just trying to rub it in.  ;)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 02:46:22 PM
I saw that.
Then I need to give you more credit then most here.  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: Yammer on October 04, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
Time for Trump and the Trumpsters to put up or shut up. Call for a $15 minimum wage (like Amazon) if you really care about the low/middle class!!!
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/3/17934194/amazon-minimum-wage-raise-stock-options-bonus-warehouse
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 06:05:08 PM
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/3/17934194/amazon-minimum-wage-raise-stock-options-bonus-warehouse

Here's a takeaway that some need to read and reread:

Quote
Is it required to hit any incentive targets in order to get the $15 minimum wage?
No, we are phasing out the incentive pay component and the $15 will be a simple minimum with no targets required.

Can anyone think of a major historical experiment in socio-economics that took away incentives that might have failed?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 06:16:46 PM
Here's a takeaway that some need to read and reread:
You need to look at the whole package and not just one-liners.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 04, 2018, 06:38:20 PM
You need to look at the whole package and not just one-liners.

The whole package as in the USSR 70 year experiment in removing performance incentives?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 06:44:02 PM
The whole package as in the USSR 70 year experiment in removing performance incentives?
ROFLMAO!

I guess you are still just trying to rub it in?  :)
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 04, 2018, 11:16:32 PM
Hopefully they are right and this will be a trend.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amazons-dollar15-an-hour-calls-mount-to-make-it-the-industry-standard/ar-BBNVhmt?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 05, 2018, 09:07:10 AM
Hopefully they are right and this will be a trend.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amazons-dollar15-an-hour-calls-mount-to-make-it-the-industry-standard/ar-BBNVhmt?ocid=spartanntp
That would be great
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 11:01:49 AM
That would be great

Though it might be devastating for small businesses.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 05, 2018, 11:07:44 AM
Though it might be devastating for small businesses.
...but what is best for the country?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 05, 2018, 11:18:40 AM
...but what is best for the country?
That's not the only thing that's important, individual liberty is more important, that's why I'm all for companies making their own minimum wage, and against the government forcing it on everyone.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 05, 2018, 11:24:27 AM
That's not the only thing that's important, individual liberty is more important, that's why I'm all for companies making their own minimum wage, and against the government forcing it on everyone.
Induvials is what makes up our great country. When I ask what's best for the country I am asking what is best for everyone.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: avromie7 on October 05, 2018, 11:32:32 AM
Induvials is what makes up our great country. When I ask what's best for the country I am asking what is best for everyone.
I agree! and for that reason I don't like the government taking away our freedom to make our own decisions "for the greater good"
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 05, 2018, 11:42:58 AM
I agree! and for that reason I don't like the government taking away our freedom to make our own decisions "for the greater good"
If businesses were honest and did what was fair we would not need them to step in. Unfortunately history has shown us this is not the case.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 11:52:20 AM
That's not the only thing that's important, individual liberty is more important
While I strongly advocate for individual liberty, I won't always say it's more important, there's a balance needed between the טובת הכלל and טובת הפרט.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
If businesses politicians were honest and did what was fair we would not need them private citizens to step in. Unfortunately history has shown us this is not the case.
FTFY.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 05, 2018, 11:56:21 AM
FTFY.
Which is why you can elect new representatives
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 11:59:50 AM
Which is why you can elect new representatives
To have fresh blood acting similarly.

The two (morally) lowest occupations IMHO are journalists/reporters and politicians. They both stop at nothing to advance their personal interests.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: aygart on October 05, 2018, 12:05:32 PM
...but what is best for the country?
to have a strong small business environment.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 05, 2018, 12:27:55 PM
FTFY.
No need to fix something that is factually correct!!!
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on October 05, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
To have fresh blood acting similarly.

The two (morally) lowest occupations IMHO are journalists/reporters and politicians. They both stop at nothing to advance their personal interests.
And somehow that's not true of business people, of CEO's, etc?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 01:19:31 PM
No need to fix something that is factually correct!!!
A half-truth is factually correct. I just gave the other half.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 05, 2018, 01:20:29 PM
And somehow that's not true of business people, of CEO's, etc?

Which part are you inquiring about? You responded to a post that had two statements.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: skyguy918 on October 05, 2018, 01:22:21 PM
Which part are you inquiring about? You responded to a post that had two statements.
Advancing personal interests.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: EJB on October 05, 2018, 04:30:10 PM
To have fresh blood acting similarly.

The two (morally) lowest occupations IMHO are journalists/reporters and politicians. They both stop at nothing to advance their personal interests.
President isn’t one of them?
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 09, 2018, 11:21:42 PM
Advancing personal interests.
Some (most) business people have moral lines they will not cross in their endeavor to advance their personal interests. It's hard to say that about reporters/journalists or politicians.
Title: Re: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families
Post by: ExGingi on October 09, 2018, 11:22:58 PM
President isn’t one of them?
If you're talking about the current POTUS - I have given up on trying to figure him out. All I care about is the outcomes.