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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 02:18:39 PM

Title: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 02:18:39 PM
Should we save this for Friday?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib9ceHobPRAhXBoZQKHaI7AM0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fjewish%2Fnews%2F.premium-1.760572&usg=AFQjCNG-Lhc0r92CE2rT-PMa5_kbizHLUA
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 02:34:02 PM
Should we save this for Friday?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib9ceHobPRAhXBoZQKHaI7AM0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fjewish%2Fnews%2F.premium-1.760572&usg=AFQjCNG-Lhc0r92CE2rT-PMa5_kbizHLUA
Stupid article.  What's the point of even discussing it?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 02:37:36 PM
Stupid article.  What's the point of even discussing it?
For starters there are parts that I think are true.
I do think that T"M is definitely good for the marriage.
But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: coralsnake on January 08, 2017, 02:43:28 PM
Should we save this for Friday?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib9ceHobPRAhXBoZQKHaI7AM0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fjewish%2Fnews%2F.premium-1.760572&usg=AFQjCNG-Lhc0r92CE2rT-PMa5_kbizHLUA
Maybe we should discuss a 17 year old marrying a 14 year old...???
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 02:46:14 PM
Maybe we should discuss a 17 year old marrying a 14 year old...???
That's part of the PC as well...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 02:47:23 PM
Maybe we should discuss a 17 year old marrying a 14 year old...???
LOL!!!
Give a holler if this article is discussed. I am sure I can add a different perspective.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 02:48:46 PM
LOL!!!
Give a holler if this article is discussed.
What are we doing now?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 02:51:13 PM
What are we doing now?
You never told me about the bolded part.

When the woman has stopped menstruating, and counted seven “clean” days that must be scrupulously checked, she immerses in the mikveh, and that night sex is obligatory.

ETA: To answer your question I am searching for flights to TLV.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: hvaces42 on January 08, 2017, 02:52:40 PM
I want to call a yizkor right now...kinder arois!!!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2017, 02:54:22 PM
You never told me about the bolded part.

When the woman has stopped menstruating, and counted seven “clean” days that must be scrupulously checked, she immerses in the mikveh, and that night sex is obligatory.

ETA: To answer your question I am searching for flights to TLV.

its not obligatory.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 08, 2017, 02:55:29 PM
its not obligatory.
+1
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 02:56:21 PM
its not obligatory.
+1
That explains it then.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Moshe123 on January 08, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
For starters there are parts that I think are true.
I do think that T"M is definitely good for the marriage.
But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.

Halacha is Halacha. What can you do?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
its not obligatory.
Might not be "obligatory" but I'm sure greater than 99% do.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
Halacha is Halacha. What can you do?
Nothing at all. Just a discussion.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 08, 2017, 03:02:35 PM
You never told me about the bolded part.

When the woman has stopped menstruating, and counted seven “clean” days that must be scrupulously checked, she immerses in the mikveh, and that night sex is obligatory.

ETA: To answer your question I am searching for flights to TLV.
Like
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2017, 03:06:41 PM
Might not be "obligatory" but I'm sure greater than 99% do.

if people are saying it "wrecks everything" they need to ask a shaila.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:08:05 PM
if people are saying it "wrecks everything" they need to ask a shaila.
They also need to see a shrink  :-*
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2017, 03:08:12 PM
I want to call a yizkor right now...kinder arois!!!
ALOL
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 03:08:44 PM
I think part of the problem is the overemphasis of the "good for your marriage" idea. We don't keep TM because of the benefits, just like we don't eat only kosher because it's "cleaner"
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2017, 03:09:53 PM
Should we save this for Friday?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib9ceHobPRAhXBoZQKHaI7AM0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fjewish%2Fnews%2F.premium-1.760572&usg=AFQjCNG-Lhc0r92CE2rT-PMa5_kbizHLUA
Before delving into discussions or PC about this, remember that this is Israeli press, where 90%+ is FAKE NEWS/FAKE REPORTING etc.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:12:01 PM
They also need to see a shrink  :-*
Not sure why you would say that.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:12:33 PM
I think part of the problem is the overemphasis of the "good for your marriage" idea. We don't keep TM because of the benefits, just like we don't eat only kosher because it's "cleaner"
True. But I do think most frum Jews do believe that TM is helpful overall to the health of their marriage just like they believe that Shabbos is good for their sanity.
At least I do.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:12:49 PM
Not sure why you would say that.
Try out TM and get back to me.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2017, 03:13:56 PM
Try out TM and get back to me.

lol. i think JTZ's wife might ban him from here before JTZ does it to himself
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:16:43 PM
lol. i think JTZ's wife might ban him from here before JTZ does it to himself
This isn't PC material it is just plain funny. The misconceptions some of you have.  :)
Title: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2017, 03:17:44 PM
This isn't PC material it is just plain funny. The misconceptions some of you have.  :)

one day ill come to a DO and you can enlighten me.
Title: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 08, 2017, 03:18:12 PM
This isn't PC material it is just plain funny. The misconceptions some of you have.  :)

You're a woman? :o
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:18:41 PM
This isn't PC material it is just plain funny. The misconceptions some of you have.  :)
Enlighten us.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:30:50 PM
Enlighten us.
http://messageinabottle-cs.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-jelly-bean-jar-theory-of-marriage.html

or

Warning: sexual joke but not really
https://youtu.be/u7od8pR0RvI?t=7m22s
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
http://messageinabottle-cs.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-jelly-bean-jar-theory-of-marriage.html
Meh.

12-14 days of no touching means that there is always a healthy desire when it's over. That's why I do think that TM is healthy for marriage. Doesn't mean it's not a challenge or hard at times though.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:34:15 PM
12-14 days of no touching means that there is always a healthy desire when it's over.
You will get over it, just wait.  :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:35:03 PM
You will get over it, just wait.  :)
Yes or no, have you ever gone 12-14 days without so much as a touch?
Care to try?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:36:00 PM
Yes or no, have you ever gone 12-14 days without so much as a touch?
Care to try?
Tons of times.
You probably mean when we are both home?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:42:04 PM
Tons of times.
You probably mean when we are both home?
Indeed.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 03:44:52 PM
I think part of the problem is the overemphasis of the "good for your marriage" idea. We don't keep TM because of the benefits, just like we don't eat only kosher because it's "cleaner"
I second this. definitely has its fair share of frustrations (think botched honeymoon) but overall, despite it being a halachic no-other-option, it definitely does something to reignite. how many of us haven't gone weeks during pregnancy without...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:45:15 PM
Indeed.
A lot of times with no real physical contact (hugging/kissing/ect). Actually not touching like when handing something to her/me I can't really say.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
תניא היה ר"מ אומר

מפני מה אמרה תורה נדה לשבעה

מפני שרגיל בה וקץ בה

אמרה תורה

תהא טמאה שבעה ימים כדי שתהא חביבה על בעלה כשעת כניסתה לחופה
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:45:50 PM
(think botched honeymoon)
Ouch!!!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:46:48 PM
I second this. definitely has its fair share of frustrations (think botched honeymoon) but overall, despite it being a halachic no-other-option, it definitely does something to reignite. how many of us haven't gone weeks during pregnancy without...
Don't even get me started on botched vacations  :-*
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:47:17 PM
A lot of times with no real physical contact (hugging/kissing/ect). Actually not touching like when handing something to her/me I can't really say.
When you try 12-14 days with zero touching period, while in the same city, let us know :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 03:47:47 PM
Ouch!!!
indeed. if you would only know the ramifications other than in the bedroom...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 03:48:32 PM
Don't even get me started on botched vacations  :-*
we should start a "war stories" thread
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: coralsnake on January 08, 2017, 03:48:43 PM
Ouch!!!
What about botched wedding night?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:48:46 PM
תניא היה ר"מ אומר

מפני מה אמרה תורה נדה לשבעה

מפני שרגיל בה וקץ בה

אמרה תורה

תהא טמאה שבעה ימים כדי שתהא חביבה על בעלה כשעת כניסתה לחופה
I think part of the problem is the overemphasis of the "good for your marriage" idea. We don't keep TM because of the benefits, just like we don't eat only kosher because it's "cleaner"
True. But I do think most frum Jews do believe that TM is helpful overall to the health of their marriage just like they believe that Shabbos is good for their sanity.
At least I do.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:48:50 PM
On average how many days per month is it allowed? You can't time it for honeymoon/vacation/special occasions?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:49:21 PM
we should start a "war stories" thread
Need to lock it from the single folk :D
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 03:50:12 PM
On average how many days per month is it allowed? You can't time it for honeymoon/vacation/special occasions?
on average 14 sometimes little less sometimes way more but its complicated. flying sometimes causes staining.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:50:35 PM
When you try 12-14 days with zero touching period, while in the same city, let us know :)
100% serious here. It would not be a big deal.
Is the biggest hurdle that you touch by accident?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 03:50:58 PM
Need to lock it from the single folk :D
pinging plainbachur to change his screename
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:51:52 PM
we should start a "war stories" thread
You're welcome to share here if you want.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Ergel on January 08, 2017, 03:53:35 PM
Can you imagine how much less entertaining this would be without JTZ here?
Also, JTZ -do you realize that for some here you are there main interaction with the non Jewish world? That's a serious weight to bear
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 03:54:30 PM


That's why I bolded "over"
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:55:21 PM
Can you imagine how much less entertaining this would be without JTZ here?
Also, JTZ -do you realize that for some here you are there main interaction with the non Jewish world? That's a serious weight to bear
I look at it as the DDF whipping boy. You can take all your frustrations out on me.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:56:33 PM
100% serious here. It would not be a big deal.
Is the biggest hurdle that you touch by accident?
The biggest hurdle for me is
But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.

It's not that it's a big deal, but after 12-14 days of no physical contact, it's still something that's quite special even many years into a marriage.

it definitely does something to reignite. how many of us haven't gone weeks during pregnancy without...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 03:57:50 PM
Can you imagine how much less entertaining this would be without JTZ here?
Also, JTZ -do you realize that for some here you are there main interaction with the non Jewish world? That's a serious weight to bear
I don't know the main interaction in general, but quite possibly their main interaction in discussing these matters.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 03:58:43 PM
Can you imagine how much less entertaining this would be without JTZ here?
Also, JTZ -do you realize that for some here you are there main interaction with the non Jewish world? That's a serious weight to bear
So true.

I don't know the main interaction in general, but quite possibly their main interaction in discussing these matters.
I'd believe main interaction in general for the majority of DDFers.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 03:59:29 PM
It's not that it's a big deal, but after 12-14 days it's still something that's quite special even many years into a marriage.
Hopefully that will never end. If it doesn't you are one lucky/special couple.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Emkay on January 08, 2017, 03:59:47 PM


You can't time it for honeymoon/vacation/special occasions?
Technically you can if needed.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 04:00:01 PM


I'd believe main interaction in general for the majority of DDFers.
-1
Amex

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:00:15 PM
Technically you can if needed.
Need more popcorn.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Joe4007 on January 08, 2017, 04:00:19 PM
When you try 12-14 days with zero touching period, while in the same city, let us know :)
Not being allowed to do it adds a lot to it psychologically. If one knows he can decide at any moment to change his mind I'd assume you don't get the same desire.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:00:25 PM
-1
Amex
LOL
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
You're welcome to share here if you want.
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:01:24 PM
Not being allowed to do it adds a lot to it psychologically. If one knows he can decide at any moment to change his mind I'd assume you don't get the same desire.
Excellent point.
Some days I can be so busy that I don't eat/drink until now and don't notice. But on a fast day I wake up thirstier and hungrier than any other day.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 08, 2017, 04:01:55 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
no couch or roll away ?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 04:02:20 PM
Excellent point.
Some days I can be so busy that I don't eat/drink until now and don't notice. But on a fast day I wake up thirstier and hungrier than any other day.
omg I'm starved. zman anyone?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:02:53 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
Never thought of those issues.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:02:55 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
Wow. Never heard of issues due do flying.
Next time don't look or wear white...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 04:02:57 PM
no couch or roll away ?
nope. high season, fully booked, pre-ddf
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 04:03:23 PM
Wow. Never heard of issues due do flying.
Next time don't look or wear white...
ill pass it on
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:03:36 PM
Never thought of those issues.
Yes, Park Hyatt operator, I want an upgrade due to wedding night and we want a rollaway bed please...  ;D
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 04:03:46 PM
Wow. Never heard of issues due do flying.
Next time don't look or wear white...

Halacha is Halacha. What can you do?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:03:55 PM
Next time don't look or wear white...
Loophole?  :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:04:22 PM
Loophole?  :)
No, just halacha :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:05:28 PM
Yes, Park Hyatt operator, I want an upgrade due to wedding night and we want a rollaway bed please...  ;D
You don't realize it but he is probably thinking you lucky dog, threesome.  :P
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Emkay on January 08, 2017, 04:05:38 PM

In not sure you're allowed to be here.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:06:15 PM
You don't realize it but he is probably thinking you lucky dog, threesome.  :P
That's exactly what I was thinking actually :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:07:18 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking actually :)
Don't think I will ever tell you that you need to get out more.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:11:06 PM
Little OT but you should all be grateful for Shabbos. It would do everyone a world of good to take a break from the every day grind.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Ergel on January 08, 2017, 04:11:53 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
Yikes.
She was wearing white? Or Rav was metamei based on staining was a reiyah?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: DP7 on January 08, 2017, 04:14:25 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/bbde3dd32c91035e70fdef0e8f645106.jpg)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Ergel on January 08, 2017, 04:15:54 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/bbde3dd32c91035e70fdef0e8f645106.jpg)

Indeed. But don't tell people here where it's from. It'll pasul it
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 04:16:26 PM
Indeed. But don't tell people here where it's from. It'll pasul it
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:17:56 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/bbde3dd32c91035e70fdef0e8f645106.jpg)
I wish everyone would post like that.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
A lot of times with no real physical contact (hugging/kissing/ect). Actually not touching like when handing something to her/me I can't really say.
How about not even handing things? Like putting the keys down for her to take them.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:21:08 PM
How about not even handing things? Like putting the keys down for her to take them.
We had separate keys for everything but I know what you mean.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: whacked1 on January 08, 2017, 04:24:05 PM
Technically you can if needed.
Timing it doesnt always work.... I have a couple of friends got timing off wedding night... thats a whole other level. Sleeping in a rebbis house etc.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: SamKey on January 08, 2017, 04:27:43 PM
tlv 12 day honeymoon. she stained first day probably due to flying (or so the rabbi said)  needed tagalong for doing anything remotely vacationy, couldn't find hotel room with two beds, ended up renting a dorm with six... need I say more?
Should've found a more lenient Rabbi  :-X
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 04:30:05 PM
Should've found a more lenient Rabbi  :-X
Maybe she was wearing white?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
We had separate keys for everything but I know what you mean.
How does that help when she can never find her keys, and always asks for yours  ;)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: SamKey on January 08, 2017, 04:31:28 PM
Maybe she was wearing white?
Then they deserve it?  :-X I don't even consider that a possibility
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:31:50 PM
How does that help when she can never find her keys, and always asks for yours  ;)
Don't even go there or this will turn into PC!  >:(
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2017, 04:33:14 PM
Don't even go there or this will turn into PC!  >:(
After all, it is deeply rooted in PC. But I'll allow you to start a separate thread on those kinds of issues - מכובד!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:38:01 PM
מכובד
I remember that one.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 08, 2017, 04:39:05 PM
Should've found a more lenient Rabbi  :-X
Was thinking same thing.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: DP7 on January 08, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
Ultimately I think the misconception is the idea that the Torah is a set of restrictions rather than the ultimate guidebook to a life of happiness from the creator of the universe (and the human psyche). To think following emotional whims will make you happier than following Halacha is childish. That's not to say it's not difficult and people can fail but it's the attitude that's the issue. On a practical level I don't really believe the person in the article saying he is happier holding his wife every night. It's scientifically proven that it's the contrast to pain that causes pleasure ( e.g. going from a state of Niddah to Tahara). See how long it takes for whatever benefit he senses now to fizzle.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: SamKey on January 08, 2017, 04:42:52 PM
But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.
Post wedding night and childbirth are for sure the hardest. Also the average couple between pregnancies and birth control don't have it too often. (Unless you have a stringent Rabbi)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 08, 2017, 04:45:07 PM
The most sensible part of the article is the last sentence. Everything else is nonsense.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:46:11 PM
On a practical level I don't really believe the person in the article saying he is happier holding his wife every night. It's scientifically proven that it's the contrast to pain that causes pleasure ( e.g. going from a state of Niddah to Tahara). See how long it takes for whatever benefit he senses now to fizzle.
Different things work for different people.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 04:48:37 PM
Rav was metamei based on staining was a reiyah?
that. in yerushalayim they are more makpid cmiiw
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 04:49:13 PM
Post wedding night and childbirth are for sure the hardest.
Someone want to clue me in on the childbirth part?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 04:51:27 PM
Someone want to clue me in on the childbirth part?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazria
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 04:53:20 PM
Then they deserve it?  :-X I don't even consider that a possibility
There is a chasam sofer that some understand that way.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 08, 2017, 04:59:30 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazria
In not sure you're allowed to be here.

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 05:11:02 PM
Thanks for the help here and via PM about childbirth. I can see that being difficult.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 08, 2017, 05:33:22 PM
Id say childbirth was probably the hardest...especially if she has a really long and painful labor. JTZ- I believe the psychological aspect of all of it is what makes it harder than the physical but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: joe1234 on January 08, 2017, 06:11:55 PM
For starters there are parts that I think are true.
I do think that T"M is definitely good for the marriage.
But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.
-1 it might be easier in the short run but in the long run not, as the woman will think that you don't really care for her... nothing makes her feel like you care for her like sincere words that have nothing to do with love...and only then during the Mutar period will she appreciate the touching once she knows you already sincerely love and care for her. There's a reason why a woman is assur after labor and there's a reason why non-Jews/frum usually have such a a terribile marriage and such a high devorce rate.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 08, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
-1 it might be easier in the short run but in the long run not, as the woman will think that you don't really care for her... nothing makes her feel like you care for her like sincere words that have nothing to do with love...and only then during the Mutar period will she appreciate the touching once she knows you already sincerely love and care for her. There's a reason why a woman is assur after labor.

+1 wow never heard it from that perspective
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: SamKey on January 08, 2017, 06:16:29 PM
-1 it might be easier in the short run but in the long run not, as the woman will think that you don't really care for her... nothing makes her feel like you care for her like sincere words that have nothing to do with love...and only then during the Mutar period will she appreciate the touching once she knows you already sincerely love and care for her. There's a reason why a woman is assur after labor.
+1 A huge benefit is putting in to perspective that marriage is so much more than the physical. It really forces you into it.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sky121 on January 08, 2017, 06:20:00 PM
Not to get into the details of what's better or not or what's easier or not etc but at the end of the day if you're not happy,  adhering to these laws and others as well tend to just be hard and as seen as only a burden. I think many people are unhappy to begin with.     That's not to say you can't be a happy individual and have a hard time with certain aspects or even a big issue with them. But I do think many people are really just unhappy about other things to begin with.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
it might be easier in the short run but in the long run not
That's fine and true, but it doesn't make the short run easy.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 08, 2017, 06:21:04 PM
That's fine and true, but it doesn't make the short run easy.
But at the end of the day none of this is really about the short run
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 06:21:40 PM
But at the end of the day none of this is really about the short run

Hence

I do think that T"M is definitely good for the marriage.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: joe1234 on January 08, 2017, 06:24:41 PM
That's fine and true, but it doesn't make the short run easy.
Agreed. But a happy healthy marriage is not always supposed to be easy, it's through the uneasy times that build a marriage.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: SamKey on January 08, 2017, 06:24:56 PM
that. in yerushalayim they are more makpid cmiiw
Depends who you ask. The biggest meikil lives there (his sefer even got banned)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 06:38:18 PM
On the other hand it is assur to hit her then too :-X
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 08, 2017, 06:39:20 PM
On the other hand it is assur to hit her then too :-X
That's what makes the short run so difficult
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: luckyluck on January 08, 2017, 06:47:21 PM
On the other hand it is assur to hit her then too :-X
Some say you can use a stick  :P
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Moshke on January 08, 2017, 06:52:10 PM
Don't even get me started on botched vacations  :-*

Wow Look what could be under some nice TR'S
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mgarfin on January 08, 2017, 07:14:40 PM
  Also the average couple between pregnancies and birth control don't have it too often. (Unless you have a stringent Rabbi)

No 12 days?

Some say you can use a stick  :P

Rav Ovadia
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: AsherO on January 08, 2017, 07:20:12 PM
On the other hand it is assur to hit her then too :-X

It's only assur derech chiba...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
It's only assur derech chiba...

Don't abusers say "I only hit you because I love you so much"?

(I think the PC is slowing down...)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 08, 2017, 07:23:35 PM
Didn't read the entire article yet or any of this thread but they lost me once "David" accuses anyone who doesnt agree with him and has a positive view of t"m as faking.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 07:24:48 PM
Didn't read the entire article yet or any of this thread but they lost me once "David" accuses anyone who doesnt agree with him and has a positive view of t"m as faking.
That's just typical liberalism.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 08, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
That's just typical liberalism.
I know and as I've lamented before things like that just destroy any chance at productive discourse.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Moshe123 on January 08, 2017, 07:27:01 PM
Also the average couple between pregnancies and pregnant right after nursing don't have it too often.

FTFCH
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 07:51:07 PM
(I think the PC is slowing down...)
I could change that but this subject just doesn't feel right.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 08, 2017, 07:57:42 PM
No 12 days?


you missed the point
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 07:58:13 PM



But I do agree that disagreements had during the ~12 days that would be far smoother with just the ability to touch each other.

-1

It forces you to work on the relationship without using touch as a crutch.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 07:59:38 PM
I could change that but this subject just doesn't feel right.
+1. I appreciate your consideration. Thanks.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 08:00:04 PM
if people are saying it "wrecks everything" they need to ask a shaila.

They also need to see a shrink  :-*
+1

Or at least get serious marital therapy.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 08:00:33 PM
I think part of the problem is the overemphasis of the "good for your marriage" idea. We don't keep TM because of the benefits, just like we don't eat only kosher because it's "cleaner"
But the benefits are true.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 08:01:33 PM
I could change that but this subject just doesn't feel right.
+1
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 08:04:10 PM

-1

It forces you to work on the relationship without using touch as a crutch.
Seems like everyone has the same soundbite.
Yes, it's arguably better longterm for the relationship. It doesn't mean that it doesn't make things more difficult in the short term.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: chevron on January 08, 2017, 08:11:37 PM
Halacha is both rigid and flexible. There are plenty of things that were repealed or scaled down because they were too difficult.

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/RYE_pilegesh.pdf

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 08:14:38 PM
Halacha is both rigid and flexible. There are plenty of things that were repealed or scaled down because they were too difficult.

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/RYE_pilegesh.pdf
way too long can you be more specific in what you are taking out of this ruling?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: elit on January 08, 2017, 08:19:56 PM
Didn't read the entire article yet or any of this thread but they lost me once "David" accuses anyone who doesnt agree with him and has a positive view of t"m as faking.
Don't waste your time that article wasn't worth a millisecond of anyone here's time
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 08:22:43 PM
So, anyone else have experience with this 🙈
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-using-the-ocean-as-a-mikveh

Or do you cancel the trip if mikvah night interferes with a planned trip?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 08:29:39 PM
So, anyone else have experience with this 🙈
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-using-the-ocean-as-a-mikveh

Or do you cancel the trip if mikvah night interferes with a planned trip?
if you can't watch your wife go would you let her swim in a river alone?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 08:30:40 PM
if you can't watch your wife go would you let her swim in a river alone?
It's obviously an AYLOR situation for what exactly to do. Just curious what people have done when it comes up.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 08, 2017, 08:33:14 PM
if you can't watch your wife go would you let her swim in a river alone?
You can watch if no one else around.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 08:33:20 PM
So, anyone else have experience with this 🙈
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-using-the-ocean-as-a-mikveh

Definitely an AYLOR moment. I know that one of the concerns is that a it may be rushed, (because of fear of being seen or cold) and therefore she may not be careful to toivel completely.

Also, with all due respect to Rebbetzin Shusterman, taking a swim before sounds like asking for a chatzitza.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sammy82 on January 08, 2017, 08:34:30 PM
It's obviously an AYLOR situation. Just curious what people have done when it comes up.
Been there done that.
Was is a camp for the summer many years ago and the closest mik was well over an hour away. Rabbi said to use the lake.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 08:37:10 PM
if you can't watch your wife go would you let her swim in a river alone?
She needs to be with someone. According to many of the is no choice it can be her husband.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sky121 on January 08, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
I think a lot of people would benefit from knowing what's permitted AL pi halacha and what's just being more machmir etc.   You'd have less people completely throwing it all away and for those struggling to the degree of those in the article it could help their yiddeshkeit a lot IMO.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 08:39:48 PM
I think a lot of people would benefit from knowing what's permitted AL pi halacha and what's just being more machmir etc.   You'd have less people completely throwing it all away and for those struggling to the degree of those in the article it could help their yiddeshkeit a lot IMO.

This x100
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 08, 2017, 08:42:49 PM
Seems like everyone has the same soundbite.
Yes, it's arguably better longterm for the relationship. It doesn't mean that it doesn't make things more difficult in the short term.
That soundbite also over generalizes touching as being only sexual. Touching can be an effective way to show compassion, empathy etc. We lose out on that opportunity during Nedah.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: efflpetzel on January 08, 2017, 08:46:53 PM
I think a lot of people would benefit from knowing what's permitted AL pi halacha and what's just being more machmir etc.   You'd have less people completely throwing it all away and for those struggling to the degree of those in the article it could help their yiddeshkeit a lot IMO.
Why do I always find that I agree with every comment of yours ,


I totally agree with your observation & your previous comment in this thread
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: efflpetzel on January 08, 2017, 08:48:04 PM
Btw can anyone explain the logic in not being able to hand over a baby to the wife when she's a niddah
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: jj1000 on January 08, 2017, 08:53:18 PM
Btw can anyone explain the logic in not being able to hand over a baby to the wife when she's a niddah
Question. Does halacha = logical?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 08:53:28 PM
I think a lot of people would benefit from knowing what's permitted AL pi halacha and what's just being more machmir etc.   You'd have less people completely throwing it all away and for those struggling to the degree of those in the article it could help their yiddeshkeit a lot IMO.

The Chabad minhag is to learn chapters 15-17 in reshis chochma before getting married. Someone suggested to me that the reason we learn 15 (which is about food) is to give context for 16-17 which is about married life.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 08:59:21 PM
Been there done that.
Was is a camp for the summer many years ago and the closest mik was well over an hour away. Rabbi said to use the lake.
Definitely needs direct guidance from a lor for this.
Not all lakes are the same. Most are never kosher, some may be etc etc.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:00:02 PM
Btw can anyone explain the logic in not being able to hand over a baby to the wife when she's a niddah
Many learn that passing objects is an extension of the issur negiah. Very logical.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:02:01 PM
Question. Does halacha = logical?
Depends on how you define logic.

Halacha is logical if your mind accepts the parameters. After that it's almost mathematics.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: theduke on January 08, 2017, 09:05:22 PM
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/bbde3dd32c91035e70fdef0e8f645106.jpg)
don't know who wrote this but before my wedding, my rebba who is very chassidish told me the same thing in essence - in yiddish of course- and he added that the one of the reasons why we make such a big celebration for our wedding is to celebrate the Gevura of a Yid where he listens to hashem when no one is watching.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sky121 on January 08, 2017, 09:05:45 PM
Depends on how you define logic.

Halacha is logical if your mind accepts the parameters. After that it's almost mathematics.
You think Halacha is always logical?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: David Smith on January 08, 2017, 09:06:16 PM
Halacha is both rigid and flexible. There are plenty of things that were repealed or scaled down because they were too difficult.

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/RYE_pilegesh.pdf

I could change that but this subject just doesn't feel right.
Somebody took your spot.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 08, 2017, 09:08:03 PM
Somebody took your spot.
>:(
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:08:12 PM
You think Halacha is always logical?
I mean that we always analyse​ the sevara in each halacha in order to apply it to new scenarios. So this is a very logical exercise..

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:08:40 PM
don't know who wrote this but before my wedding, my rebba who is very chassidish told me the same thing in essence - in yiddish of course- and he added that the one of the reasons why we make such a big celebration for our wedding is to celebrate the Gevura of a Yid where he listens to hashem when no one is watching.
It's based on a Gemara.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:19:10 PM
You want PC? Let's talk about chumra d'R Zeira and the galya mesechta..
Here you go.. enjoy

Quote
"עיקר מימרא דרבי זירא לא הוי מתקנת חכמים אלא בנות ישראל החמירו על עצמן חומרא זו מעצמן ולפיכך ראוי לומר בפשיטות על עניין חומרא דרבי זירא לבנקל נפטרין ממנה, היינו בכל עניין ובכל מקום שיש איזה צד להקל..." (רבי דוד מנובהרדוק, שו"ת "גליא מסכת" י', סי' ד')
"דין זה 
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: theduke on January 08, 2017, 09:19:41 PM
It's based on a Gemara.
So your saying mein rebba ken lernen ;D
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:25:21 PM
So your saying mein rebba ken lernen ;D
היתר זה אמרו בגמרא ( סנהדרין לז., מתורגם לעברית):

אמר לו אותו מין לרב כהנא: אתם אומרים נדה מותרת להתייחד עִם בעלה[46], אפשר אש בנעורת [- בנסורת] ואינה מהבהבת (- דולקת, אוחזת[47], בוערת[48])? - אמר לו [רב כהנא]: התורה העידה עלינו 'סוּגָה בַּשּׁוֹשַׁנִּים' (שיר השירים ז, ג), שאפילו כסוגה [- מגודרת]בשושנים[49] - לא יפרצו בהן פרצות[50]. ריש לקישאמר [שהדבר נלמד] מכאן - 'כְּפֶלַח הָרִמּוֹן רַקָּתֵךְ'(שיר השירים ו, ז) אפילו ריקנים שבך [- שבעם ישראל] מלאים מצוות כרמון. רבי זירא אמר[שהדבר נלמד] מכאן - 'וַיָּרַח אֶת רֵיחַ בְּגָדָיו'(בראשית כז, כז), אל תיקרי בגדיו אלא בוגדיו".

ודבר זה, שִבחם של ישראל הוא, שאע"פ שתאווהגדולה יש בדבר, ולב בני הזוג גס אחד בשני[51]ואינם בושים זה מזו וזו מזה[52], ואין זר מבלעדיהם יודע בדבר, מ"מ נזהרים הם באזהרת התורה, ואינם נוגעים איש באשתו ואפילו באצבע קטנה[53]. ועל דבר אמרו במדרש[54]:

"סוּגָה (- מגודרת) בַּשּׁוֹשָׁנִּים" - אין המקרא אומר אלא דרשני, [וכי] יש אדם [ש]גודר שדהו בשושנים, [- הרי] דרך בני אדם [ש]גודריםכרמיהם או שדותיהם בקוצים ובדרדרים, בסירים ובחוחים (- מיני קוצים), שמא ראית אדם מימך שהוא גודר שדה בשושנים? אלא אלו הן דברי תורה שהם רכים כשושנים.כיצד? בנוהג שבעולם, אדם נושא אִשה בן שלושים שנה, בן ארבעים שנה[55], היה מתאווהלראות עצמו בתוך חופתו, אין לו יום גדול וחביב הימנו שהוא שמח עִם אשתו, הוציא יציאותיו [- הוצאות החתונה] והציע חופתו. בא להיזקק  לאשתו, והיא אומרת לו: 'כשושנה אדומה ראיתי' [- ראיתי דם אדום כשושנה]. מייד פירש הימנה, זה הופך פניו לכאן וזו הופכת פניה לכאן.מי גרם לו שלא יקרב אליה? איזה כותל ברזל יש ביניהם, ואיזה עמוד ברזל ביניהם? מי הפרישו הימנה? אי זה נחש נשכו, איזה עקרב עקצו שלא יקרב לה? אלא אלו הם דברי תורה שרכים כשושנה, שנאמר בה (ויקרא יח, יט): וְאֶל אִשָּׁה בְּנִדַּת טֻמְאָתָהּ לֹא תִקְרַב".
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: gozalim on January 08, 2017, 09:32:38 PM
I second this. definitely has its fair share of frustrations (think botched honeymoon)
IINM the rebbe advised against the traditional honeymoon, among other things, still adjusting to new set of rules, traveling, especially to places with no LOR/community (IIUC Jerusalem wouldn't have this issue).
 IMHO combine that with odds of besulim, you're better off saving the island vacation for a couple months later
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: hvaces42 on January 08, 2017, 09:39:57 PM
Yes, Park Hyatt operator, I want an upgrade due to wedding night and we want a rollaway bed please...  ;D
Almost that exact scenario. Anniversary asked for upgrade weeks in advance. When we show up ask for 2 beds. The looks we got... >:(
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 09:40:57 PM
Many learn that passing objects is an extension of the issur negiah. Very logical.
Shemo yiga
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 08, 2017, 09:42:07 PM
IINM the rebbe advised against the traditional honeymoon, among other things, still adjusting to new set of rules, traveling, especially to places with no LOR/community (IIUC Jerusalem wouldn't have this issue).
Definitely not advisable to have a "honeymoon" right away.

One interesting anecdote about Jerusalem. DW once had to use mikvah there and had trauma of her lifetime. Very different than what she was accustomed to. Though American style is available, one just has to know where to ask.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 09:44:11 PM
Definitely not advisable to have a "honeymoon" right away.

One interesting anecdote about Jerusalem. DW once had to use mikvah there and had trauma of her lifetime. Very different than what she was accustomed to. Though American style is available, one just has to know where to ask.
care to share about the trauma
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:47:34 PM
care to share about the trauma
In general, even in the US, chassidishe mikva lady's perform a full and intrusive examination for chatziza as opposed to the casual glance done by others...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 09:49:05 PM
In general, even in the US, chassidishe mikva lady's perform a full and intrusive examination for chatziza as opposed to the casual glance done by others...
i hope you are not serious
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:52:45 PM
i hope you are not serious
Dead serious. We were actually taught not to use satmar mikva for this reason.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 09:53:35 PM
Dead serious. We were actually taught not to use satmar mikva for this reason.
I did not go to Israel after I was married so I never knew of this...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 09:55:27 PM
I did not go to Israel after I was married so I never knew of this...
I'm talking satmar in Lakewood!!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mendy from lakewood on January 08, 2017, 09:57:09 PM
I'm talking satmar in Lakewood!!
wow! Didn't even know they have ladies Mikva...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 10:02:19 PM
wow! Didn't even know they have ladies Mikva...
I don't think they do.. I meant satmar in america etc. Like if you're traveling don't go to a new square/ satmar etc.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 08, 2017, 10:10:18 PM
I don't think they do.. I meant satmar in america etc. Like if you're traveling don't go to a new square/ satmar etc.
They do.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
They do.
I thought so but got unsure...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 08, 2017, 10:55:44 PM
You want PC? Let's talk about chumra d'R Zeira and the galya mesechta..
Here you go.. enjoy
I guess I overestimated some guys here...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 10:57:19 PM
Seems like everyone has the same soundbite.
Yes, it's arguably better longterm for the relationship. It doesn't mean that it doesn't make things more difficult in the short term.
If you want to talk short term, you don't need to go past the actual separation, which is difficult.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
IINM the rebbe advised against the traditional honeymoon, among other things, still adjusting to new set of rules, traveling, especially to places with no LOR/community (IIUC Jerusalem wouldn't have this issue).
 IMHO combine that with odds of besulim, you're better off saving the island vacation for a couple months later
of course it wasn't a honeymoon in the traditional sense as in right after wedding!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 11:02:20 PM
That soundbite also over generalizes touching as being only sexual. Touching can be an effective way to show compassion, empathy etc. We lose out on that opportunity during Nedah.
I disagree. I think needing to be able to work things out without the compassion etc. element of touch is also important.

To quote a nurse at the maternity ward, speaking about frum men interacting with their wives in labor:

"You are able to do with your eyes what most people need to use their hands for."
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 08, 2017, 11:05:20 PM
Funny how this thread, which originally seemed very PC-ish took a turn for inspirational in a sense
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 08, 2017, 11:11:07 PM


I disagree. I think needing to be able to work things out without the compassion etc. element of touch is also important.

To quote a nurse at the maternity ward, speaking about frum men interacting with their wives in labor:

"You are able to do with your eyes what most people need to use their hands for."

Why's that so important?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
I think it runs deeper.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 08, 2017, 11:20:08 PM

Why's that so important?

The argument is that touching (even in a non-sexual way) can make it easier to paper over issues that in the long term can cause damage to the relationship.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: thaber on January 08, 2017, 11:21:24 PM

Why's that so important?
as per the Raymond article JTZ linked to - non verbal communication is linked to a deeper understanding of each other and a better relationship. kol shekein when you're not only replacing words, but even touch.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: thaber on January 08, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
re lakes/oceans - definitely a very situation specific qurstion, and make sure you know how big the lake is and if it's man made before asking your competent LOR
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 08, 2017, 11:24:35 PM
The argument is that touching (even in a non-sexual way) can make it easier to paper over issues that in the long term can cause damage to the relationship.
I dont fully agree. It's all part of good communication.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
re lakes/oceans - definitely a very situation specific qurstion, and make sure you know how big the lake is and if it's man made before asking your competent LOR
What does that have to do with re/oceans?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: thaber on January 08, 2017, 11:30:40 PM
What does that have to do with re/oceans?
you're being pedantic :)
Re Oceans -  the cons are discussed on the page in SA, IIRC. So you just need someone who actually knows that. Lakes are trickier
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 11:36:18 PM
Can you imagine how much less entertaining this would be without JTZ here?
Also, JTZ -do you realize that for some here you are there main interaction with the non Jewish world? That's a serious weight to bear

Same goes for valuable input from our small handful of members of the fairer sex...

Not to get into the details of what's better or not or what's easier or not etc but at the end of the day if you're not happy,  adhering to these laws and others as well tend to just be hard and as seen as only a burden. I think many people are unhappy to begin with.     That's not to say you can't be a happy individual and have a hard time with certain aspects or even a big issue with them. But I do think many people are really just unhappy about other things to begin with.
I think a lot of people would benefit from knowing what's permitted AL pi halacha and what's just being more machmir etc.   You'd have less people completely throwing it all away and for those struggling to the degree of those in the article it could help their yiddeshkeit a lot IMO.

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 08, 2017, 11:41:07 PM
Same goes for valuable input from our small handful of members of the fairer sex...
? where do you see any indication?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 08, 2017, 11:47:16 PM
Been there done that.
Was is a camp for the summer many years ago and the closest mik was well over an hour away. Rabbi said to use the lake.
Eh, there were always the super-chasidish bochurim dipping in frozen lakes on shabbatons. Not quite what I was referring to ;)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 08, 2017, 11:58:40 PM
I dont fully agree. It's all part of good communication.
Yes, but maximizing the ability to communicate without touch doesn't take away from the power of touch when it is available, so it's win-win.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: yzj on January 09, 2017, 12:00:16 AM
Logically touching all the time should lead to a closer marriage but then again logically cohabiting prior to marriage should help the relationship as well but there is clearly an inverse relationship in that regard. The real question is not what it does to the marriage in year one or two but what it does 10 or 20 years down the road. Anecdotally it seems that by those who don't keeps the laws that eventually there ends up being less touching and intimacy- I always seem to be reading about the wife who thinks her husband is getting romantic and then realizes he was just searching for the TV remote. Any factual studies out there? Other than the obvious fact that those who keep the laws tend to stay married longer etc which could also be attributed to cultural factors....just as the fact that the Hollywood types who always seem to be touching almost never seem to have stable or happy marriages probably has a lot to due with cultural influences and expectations that are prevelant among that population...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 12:03:07 AM
Eh, there were always the super-chasidish bochurim dipping in frozen lakes on shabbatons. Not quite what I was referring to ;)

Every morning when I was in yeshiva in Moscow (the yeshiva was on campgrounds outside of the city, and they were building the mikvah).

And not an inch of ice either. There was one bochur who was in charge of bringing the ax, and cutting through ice that was thick enough to stand on.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2017, 12:04:12 AM
Every morning when I was in yeshiva in Moscow (the yeshiva was on campgrounds outside of the city, and they were building the mikvah).

And not an inch of ice either. There was one bochur who was in charge of bringing the ax, and cutting through ice that was thick enough to stand on.
Lol, I'd call that Chosid Shoteh, but it's still impressive.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 12:06:36 AM
Lol, I'd call that Chosid Shoteh, but it's still impressive.

I'd probably agree with you today, but the things we do in our youth...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 09, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
Not to get into the details of what's better or not or what's easier or not etc but at the end of the day if you're not happy,  adhering to these laws and others as well tend to just be hard and as seen as only a burden. I think many people are unhappy to begin with.     That's not to say you can't be a happy individual and have a hard time with certain aspects or even a big issue with them. But I do think many people are really just unhappy about other things to begin with.
There's no way such sentiments as expressed in that article could have been written by someone who was otherwise happy with their Yiddishkeit.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 09, 2017, 04:22:13 AM
In general, even in the US, chassidishe mikva lady's perform a full and intrusive examination for chatziza as opposed to the casual glance done by others...
DW's trauma was not about that.

Imagine being used to going only into an upscale hotel bathroom, and having to go to a youth hostel bathroom instead.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 09:40:10 AM
DW's trauma was not about that.

Imagine being used to going only into an upscale hotel bathroom, and having to go to a youth hostel bathroom instead.
+100
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 09:41:30 AM
of course it wasn't a honeymoon in the traditional sense as in right after wedding!
Either i'm missing info or i have a diff LOR
I'm am baffled at a lot of aspects of your story
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 09:45:04 AM
What does that have to do with re/oceans?
My LOR said you can go in a loose robe and also wear flip flops to cover the chatzitza fro the sand issue and when dipping make sure nothing is touching
(shoes and clothes)
The hardest part in alot of places is going out deep enough and still being safe... (unless you can get a LOR to allow the next day...)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2017, 09:48:50 AM
My LOR said you can go in a loose robe and also wear flip flops to cover the chatzitza fro the sand issue and when dipping make sure nothing is touching
(shoes and clothes)
The hardest part in alot of places is going out deep enough and still being safe... (unless you can get a LOR to allow the next day...)
How can you wear a robe and have it not touch you?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 09:50:34 AM
How can you wear a robe and have it not touch you?
loose and thin,
not ideal but the LOR said it would work  and wouldn't be a chatzitza
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Moshe123 on January 09, 2017, 09:51:46 AM
How can you wear a robe and have it not touch you?

water gets through
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 09, 2017, 09:55:28 AM
water gets through
Water getting through doesn't necessarily mean it's OK...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 09, 2017, 10:04:09 AM
Maybe South African LOR's have different standards ;)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 10:06:03 AM
Maybe South African LOR's have different standards ;)
actually was a Lakewood one and confirmed by others
but who's counting
also in the "good old days" (maybe @yehuda57 would remember what that might mean) in SA there wasn;t necessarily a (kosher)  mikva  in all the summer spots and many people used the sea IIHC
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: MC on January 09, 2017, 10:12:06 AM
So much to say . . . sheesh.

I once saw a great TED talk speaking about the secret to a long term relationship. The speaker had a Jewish name, but was clearly not religious. However, what she described (balancing between familiarity and mystery) sounded a whole lot like Nidda to me.

I'll try to find it and link.

ETA: here it is (https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_the_secret_to_desire_in_a_long_term_relationship)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 09, 2017, 10:14:33 AM
So much to say . . . sheesh.
Let it rip.  :)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 09, 2017, 10:15:58 AM
Let it rip.  :)

she has to be careful. her husband might read it
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sam123 on January 09, 2017, 10:16:21 AM
So much to say . . . sheesh.

I once saw a great TED talk speaking about the secret to a long term relationship. The speaker had a Jewish name, but was clearly not religious. However, what she described (balancing between familiarity and mystery) sounded a whole lot like Nidda to me.

I'll try to find it and link.

This one?
https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_the_secret_to_desire_in_a_long_term_relationship/transcript?language=en
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: MC on January 09, 2017, 10:17:34 AM
This one?
https://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_the_secret_to_desire_in_a_long_term_relationship/transcript?language=en
Yup, just added to my post above.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Moshe123 on January 09, 2017, 10:27:03 AM
Water getting through doesn't necessarily mean it's OK...

You want to explain your argument in halacha?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dan on January 09, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
loose and thin,
not ideal but the LOR said it would work  and wouldn't be a chatzitza
Interesting, wasn't told that was a viable option when I asked.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 09, 2017, 10:34:54 AM
You want to explain your argument in halacha?

Interesting, wasn't told that was a viable option when I asked.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 11:14:01 AM
Interesting, wasn't told that was a viable option when I asked.
were you told it wasn;t? or you weren;t told it was an option
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: dealfinder85 on January 09, 2017, 11:17:09 AM
Interesting, wasn't told that was a viable option when I asked.
the gemora talks about cases like that, especially when they needed to tovel their clothes too
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 11:18:22 AM

i'll attempt
#1 it's loose so it doesn;t neccessarily have to touch anywhere
#2 even if it does since it's tofiach al menas l'hatfiach (or even a step better than that), Hashaka will transfer the water to every part it needs to
obviously this isn;t something to rely upon l'chatchila, but then the question isn;t about L'chatchila

@dan would you use a Mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor beshas hadechak?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 11:23:06 AM
how would this work in TM
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/relationships/a42034/marrying-yourself-wedding-trend/
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 09, 2017, 12:19:56 PM
i'll attempt
#1 it's loose so it doesn;t neccessarily have to touch anywhere
#2 even if it does since it's tofiach al menas l'hatfiach (or even a step better than that), Hashaka will transfer the water to every part it needs to
obviously this isn;t something to rely upon l'chatchila, but then the question isn;t about L'chatchila

@dan would you use a Mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor beshas hadechak?
I think that is what needs to be defined.

There are many things that might be acceptable, but we wouldn't do lechatchila. Is "honeymooning" or for that matter any other trip that we were willing to spend a lot (money or points) for considered enough of a sha'as hadechak?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
I think that is what needs to be defined.

There are many things that might be acceptable, but we wouldn't do lechatchila. Is "honeymooning" or for that matter any other trip that we were willing to spend a lot (money or points) for considered enough of a sha'as hadechak?
if i pulled out the calendar made a reasonable guess (assuming vest kavu'a with a +/-1 variable )  6 months in advance booked an once in a lifetime DDF special
then all the was a change or miscalculation and instead of the week before, yom tevila came out the day we arrived...
(all babysitting arranged etc etc) yes i'd call that shas hadechak

would you use a mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Yehuda57 on January 09, 2017, 12:36:58 PM
if i pulled out the calendar made a reasonable guess (assuming vest kavu'a with a +/-1 variable )  6 months in advance booked an once in a lifetime DDF special
then all the was a change or miscalculation and instead of the week before, yom tevila came out the day we arrived...
(all babysitting arranged etc etc) yes i'd call that shas hadechak

would you use a mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor?

Try making those calculations while rushing to book a glitch fare ;-)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: mgarfin on January 09, 2017, 12:37:02 PM
DW's trauma was not about that.

Imagine being used to going only into an upscale hotel bathroom, and having to go to a youth hostel bathroom instead.

That's your fault for not doing research! There are options.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: good sam on January 09, 2017, 01:21:07 PM
how would this work in TM
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/relationships/a42034/marrying-yourself-wedding-trend/
Some people could use the harchakos IYKWIM.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 09, 2017, 02:05:13 PM
That's your fault for not doing research! There are options.
I actually did the research.

I asked someone where I can find American Style

would you use a mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor?

I was given a few options, with a recommendation for Beit Shemesh. However when time came DW decided to go to the closest one on the list we were given. Bor al gabei Bor it was. But far from American style.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 02:16:10 PM

@dan would you use a Mikva that wasn;t bor al gabei bor beshas hadechak?

I don't know if anyone wouldn't. Crown heights didn't even have a bor al gabei bor until at least the 70s (maybe even later).
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 02:19:54 PM
I don't know if anyone wouldn't. Crown heights didn't even have a bor al gabei bor until at least the 70s (maybe even later).
:o
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 02:24:58 PM
:o

Let me correct myself;

I don't know of any Rov who would say not to.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 02:32:42 PM
Let me correct myself;

I don't know of any Rov who would say not to.
I didn;t know one way or the other
Just wanted to know what they considered B'dieved or Sha'as Hadchak
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: AsherO on January 09, 2017, 02:40:56 PM
how would this work in TM
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/relationships/a42034/marrying-yourself-wedding-trend/

Narcissists!
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 02:51:05 PM
I didn;t know one way or the other
Just wanted to know what they considered B'dieved or Sha'as Hadchak

From personal experience, driving an hour and 15 minutes qualified.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 02:52:27 PM
From personal experience, driving an hour and 15 minutes qualified.
Interesting, as that would be the halocho by alot of thing such as washing for bread
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 03:00:58 PM
Interesting, as that would be the halocho by alot of thing such as washing for bread

I don't think that was the minimum. That time was what I asked the Rov, not what the Rov told me.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ADG on January 09, 2017, 03:06:41 PM
Stupid article.  What's the point of even discussing it?
+1000

Classic liberal nonsense. From the same news outlet that has an obscure reality on all kinds of topics including this one.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: eli232 on January 09, 2017, 03:14:33 PM
Quote
In general, even in the US, chassidishe mikva lady's perform a full and intrusive examination for chatziza as opposed to the casual glance done by others...
for the record thats not true, even in satmar they only look at the nails and maybe the back(as its a place u cant see yourself)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 09, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
for the record thats not true, even in satmar they only look at the nails and maybe the back(as its a place u cant see yourself)
-1
And even when they do that they can be very rough
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 09, 2017, 04:01:03 PM
for the record thats not true, even in satmar they only look at the nails and maybe the back(as its a place u cant see yourself)
+1
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: MC on January 09, 2017, 04:05:58 PM
Let it rip.  :)

Firstly, the article is complete nonsense. You cannot take an abnormal situation (a fourteen year old bride . . . I mean, seriously?) and try to infer a principle from there.

Secondly, the whole piece about it being obligatory when both husband and wife don't want to that night. Totally false.

Thirdly, the laws of family purity are not meant to be convenient or easy. They force couples to connect in ways other that physical touch, and most couples who are committed to keeping the laws, discover the beauty in them.

Sure, they are difficult. They can create challenges. Children can also create challenges in marriage, but no one gives them up just because of that.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 09, 2017, 05:38:14 PM
Firstly, the article is complete nonsense. You cannot take an abnormal situation (a fourteen year old bride . . . I mean, seriously?) and try to infer a principle from there.

Secondly, the whole piece about it being obligatory when both husband and wife don't want to that night. Totally false.

Thirdly, the laws of family purity are not meant to be convenient or easy. They force couples to connect in ways other that physical touch, and most couples who are committed to keeping the laws, discover the beauty in them.

Sure, they are difficult. They can create challenges. Children can also create challenges in marriage, but no one gives them up just because of that.
+1
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Ergel on January 09, 2017, 05:41:32 PM
Same goes for valuable input from our small handful of members of the fairer sex...
That
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Boruch999 on January 09, 2017, 06:02:57 PM
how would this work in TM
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/relationships/a42034/marrying-yourself-wedding-trend/

Only women?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 06:11:29 PM

Children can also create challenges in marriage, but no one gives them up just because of that.

No-one? I think we live in a society, in which something "being hard" is becoming a valid reason not to do it.

(Less so in the frum world, but we are being influenced by the outside)

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly with your three points.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Cheesecake on January 09, 2017, 07:10:03 PM
No-one? I think we live in a society, in which something "being hard" is becoming a valid reason not to do it.

(Less so in the frum world, but we are being influenced by the outside)

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly with your three points.
OK, so no one normal.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 09, 2017, 07:31:05 PM
From personal experience, driving an hour and 15 minutes qualified.
I am sure my DW would consider anything, which could be reached by any means of transportation while open (or can be opened specially for her) enough of a sha'as hadechak to make me do anything to get there. If I would dare to suggest asking a Rov about traveling an hour and 15 minutes to reach a bor al gabei Bor mikvah, she would think I am going OTD.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 09, 2017, 07:32:51 PM

If you can drive 3 hours to pick up a stack of red cards,  you can drive an hour and a half to a mikvah
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: 12HRS on January 09, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
If you can drive 3 hours to pick up a stack of red cards,  you can drive an hour and a half to a mikvah

who said his wife would be willing.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: as2 on January 09, 2017, 07:54:53 PM
who said his wife would be willing.
Taake a good Shaila.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: elit on January 09, 2017, 08:01:16 PM
Firstly, the article is complete nonsense. You cannot take an abnormal situation (a fourteen year old bride . . . I mean, seriously?) and try to infer a principle from there.

Secondly, the whole piece about it being obligatory when both husband and wife don't want to that night. Totally false.

Thirdly, the laws of family purity are not meant to be convenient or easy. They force couples to connect in ways other that physical touch, and most couples who are committed to keeping the laws, discover the beauty in them.

Sure, they are difficult. They can create challenges. Children can also create challenges in marriage, but no one gives them up just because of that.
Well said but...
Don't waste your time that article wasn't worth a millisecond of anyone here's time
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 09, 2017, 08:31:56 PM
I am sure my DW would consider anything, which could be reached by any means of transportation while open (or can be opened specially for her) enough of a sha'as hadechak to make me do anything to get there. If I would dare to suggest asking a Rov about traveling an hour and 15 minutes to reach a bor al gabei Bor mikvah, she would think I am going OTD.

I should point out that the bit hashoka (which is min hatzad) is bor al gabei bor.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: YitzyS on January 09, 2017, 08:57:39 PM
The floor in Park Hyatt New York is not as comfortable as one might think.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: chaimmayer on January 09, 2017, 09:59:20 PM
 I know many Lubavitchers who traveled more than an hour 15 minutes to the closest bor al Gabei bor mikve but maybe they had other reasons they didn't want to use the local mikve and that was just their excuse.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sky121 on January 09, 2017, 10:44:02 PM
Firstly, the article is complete nonsense. You cannot take an abnormal situation (a fourteen year old bride . . . I mean, seriously?) and try to infer a principle from there.

Secondly, the whole piece about it being obligatory when both husband and wife don't want to that night. Totally false.

Thirdly, the laws of family purity are not meant to be convenient or easy. They force couples to connect in ways other that physical touch, and most couples who are committed to keeping the laws, discover the beauty in them.

Sure, they are difficult. They can create challenges. Children can also create challenges in marriage, but no one gives them up just because of that.


I think there is something for everyone to take away from the article.
One, it does help bring about the opportunity to discuss what the "average" religious person feels about the laws and how they can sometimes be inconvenient or not ideal etc etc.

And two what we can do to help those who are in situations where these laws are causing major problems in their yiddeshkeit and in their lives.



From my own personal discussions with friends, and many others I find that there are many people who really love all the laws, many who are just fine with the laws and see the good and bad and then those who it really causes major problems in their lives for whatever reason.


I'd say the majority of people I know fall into that middle group but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't fall into the first or last.




And while it could be the average joe isn't struggling with these laws I'd say like many other areas as well there are enough who are for it to warrant a discussion.

Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: a mirrer on January 10, 2017, 04:52:50 AM
Firstly, the article is complete nonsense. You cannot take an abnormal situation (a fourteen year old bride . . . I mean, seriously?) and try to infer a principle from there.

Secondly, the whole piece about it being obligatory when both husband and wife don't want to that night. Totally false.
al pi kabala its very not pashut not to do it that night ill find the sefer later where it brings stories of mazikim attaching themselves to women who didn't do it that night
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2017, 06:59:09 AM

I think there is something for everyone to take away from the article.
One, it does help bring about the opportunity to discuss what the "average" religious person feels about the laws and how they can sometimes be inconvenient or not ideal etc etc.

And two what we can do to help those who are in situations where these laws are causing major problems in their yiddeshkeit and in their lives.



From my own personal discussions with friends, and many others I find that there are many people who really love all the laws, many who are just fine with the laws and see the good and bad and then those who it really causes major problems in their lives for whatever reason.


I'd say the majority of people I know fall into that middle group but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't fall into the first or last.




And while it could be the average joe isn't struggling with these laws I'd say like many other areas as well there are enough who are for it to warrant a discussion.
So the discussion is about whether or not we should be " oy, Iz azoi shver Tzu zein a yid" or not?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 10, 2017, 08:05:25 AM

I think there is something for everyone to take away from the article.
One, it does help bring about the opportunity to discuss what the "average" religious person feels about the laws and how they can sometimes be inconvenient or not ideal etc etc.

And two what we can do to help those who are in situations where these laws are causing major problems in their yiddeshkeit and in their lives.



From my own personal discussions with friends, and many others I find that there are many people who really love all the laws, many who are just fine with the laws and see the good and bad and then those who it really causes major problems in their lives for whatever reason.


I'd say the majority of people I know fall into that middle group but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't fall into the first or last.




And while it could be the average joe isn't struggling with these laws I'd say like many other areas as well there are enough who are for it to warrant a discussion.


How many of those in each of the 3 categories are also in the same categories about many other various aspects of life?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Sport on January 10, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
So the discussion is about whether or not we should be " oy, Iz azoi shver Tzu zein a yid" or not?
Acknowledging something is difficult does not equal "its tough being jewish".
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: MC on January 10, 2017, 09:41:20 AM
al pi kabala its very not pashut not to do it that night ill find the sefer later where it brings stories of mazikim attaching themselves to women who didn't do it that night
Al pi kabala and Halacha are not one and the same. I'm not saying it's ideal; I'm just saying it's not an absolute.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
al pi kabala its very not pashut not to do it that night ill find the sefer later where it brings stories of mazikim attaching themselves to women who didn't do it that night
Poskim discuss ways to eliminate this issue also. Ask your lor.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Luvtotravel on January 10, 2017, 10:02:57 AM
Poskim discuss ways to eliminate this issue also. Ask your lor.
knife?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2017, 10:19:22 AM
knife?
Yeah. + Beged shel baal
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: efflpetzel on January 10, 2017, 01:32:11 PM
knife?
JTZ not curious?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: JTZ on January 10, 2017, 02:11:51 PM
JTZ not curious?
Afraid to ask.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 10, 2017, 02:14:01 PM
Afraid to ask.
Lol
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: sharkky on January 10, 2017, 02:55:09 PM
You want PC? Let's talk about chumra d'R Zeira and the galya mesechta..
Here you go.. enjoy
  :o

Doesn't an accepted minhag become a binding Halacha? Is he advocating loopholes?
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: aygart on January 10, 2017, 03:11:56 PM
Afraid to ask.
Its kabbalistic stuff so you won't get any real answer anyhow.
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 10, 2017, 03:27:20 PM
You want PC? Let's talk about chumra d'R Zeira and the galya mesechta..
Here you go.. enjoy
  :o

Doesn't an accepted minhag become a binding Halacha? Is he advocating loopholes?

and in case you needed to see it in context
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=670&st=&pgnum=183
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ckmk47 on January 11, 2017, 04:19:09 PM
al pi kabala its very not pashut not to do it that night ill find the sefer later where it brings stories of mazikim attaching themselves to women who didn't do it that night
I know a couple who asked their LOR about delaying going to the mikva for a few days for birth control reasons.  They were told it doesn't require a sha'ala if both agree.
(I realize technically there is a difference between going and abstaining vs not going until they are ready.)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 11, 2017, 04:28:38 PM
I know a couple who asked their LOR about delaying going to the mikva for a few days for birth control reasons.  They were told it doesn't require a sha'ala if both agree.
(I realize technically there is a difference between going and abstaining vs not going until they are ready.)
technically??? as DJT would say YUuuuuuuuuGe
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: gozalim on January 11, 2017, 05:01:52 PM
I know a couple who asked their LOR about delaying going to the mikva for a few days for birth control reasons.  They were told it doesn't require a sha'ala if both agree.
(I realize technically there is a difference between going and abstaining vs not going until they are ready.)
YLORMV IINM
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: zh cohen on January 11, 2017, 05:48:46 PM
I know a couple who asked their LOR about delaying going to the mikva for a few days for birth control reasons.  They were told it doesn't require a sha'ala if both agree.
(I realize technically there is a difference between going and abstaining vs not going until they are ready.)

The question is if טבילה בזמנו מצוה or not. (Regardless of what happens after)
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: Dawie on January 11, 2017, 06:09:48 PM
The question is if טבילה בזמנו מצוה or not. (Regardless of what happens after)
depends on what you consider טבילה בזמנו מצוה
according to the Gem. Niddah 28 if it was a "real" mitzva there would be a chiyuv that would have them go regardless of what happens after ie. like on YK etc.
We pasken it's not...
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: elit on January 11, 2017, 11:06:47 PM

I think there is something for everyone to take away from the article.
One, it does help bring about the opportunity to discuss what the "average" religious person feels about the laws and how they can sometimes be inconvenient or not ideal etc etc.

And two what we can do to help those who are in situations where these laws are causing major problems in their yiddeshkeit and in their lives.



From my own personal discussions with friends, and many others I find that there are many people who really love all the laws, many who are just fine with the laws and see the good and bad and then those who it really causes major problems in their lives for whatever reason.


I'd say the majority of people I know fall into that middle group but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't fall into the first or last.




And while it could be the average joe isn't struggling with these laws I'd say like many other areas as well there are enough who are for it to warrant a discussion.
Wasn't commenting on the worthiness of this conversation I was However commenting on the worthiness of the article
Title: Re: Taharas Hamishpacha Article Discussion For The Married Folk...
Post by: ExGingi on January 12, 2017, 01:22:40 AM
Wasn't commenting on the worthiness of this conversation I was However commenting on the worthiness of the article
That article, like almost anything put out, it useless, baseless, and false.

We have DJT exposing the media for what they are in the US, and
נתניהו זכה ונעשית מלאכתו על ידי אחרים. ומלאך רע בעל כרחו יענה אמן,
if you're following the latest media (yediot, mozes, et al) coming out of Israel.