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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:19:04 PM

Title: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:19:04 PM
For JTZ.

If life begins at conception, there should be no difference between killing a fetus and killing a person who was born already.

You don't support laws against abortion (CMIIW), yet do support (I hope) laws against murder.

I think that is inconsistent.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:21:30 PM
Is killing a human life murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 24, 2017, 04:24:54 PM
Is killing a human life murder?
Sometimes.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:28:06 PM
Sometimes.
+1
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:37:04 PM
How about taking the lives/killing of a whole race of people? Is that murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 24, 2017, 04:42:37 PM
How about taking the lives/killing of a whole race of people? Is that murder?

Usually that's called genocide. Amalek is a special case.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: grodnoking on January 24, 2017, 04:43:15 PM
How about taking the lives/killing of a whole race of people? Is that murder?
Why don't you tell us what your getting at.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:43:30 PM
Usually that's called genocide. Amalek is a special case.
Please answer the question.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:44:42 PM
How about taking the lives/killing of a whole race of people? Is that murder?

Sometimes.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 04:44:47 PM
Life as we know it doesnt necessarily start at conception.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:46:38 PM

Since you don't understand what murder is then there is no need for this conversation.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:47:49 PM
Since you don't understand what murder is then there is no need for this conversation.
man, you are really good at deflection and avoidance. Just an objective observation
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 24, 2017, 04:47:54 PM
Life as we know it doesnt necessarily start at conception.
According to Halacha.

And even after it did, there are cases where we apply the דין רודף if mother is in danger (which IINM might also apply to mental danger - but check with your LOR if that is ever an issue for you).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 24, 2017, 04:50:19 PM
How about taking the lives/killing of a whole race of people? Is that murder?
Could you please define "race of people". Is a "race of people" (as opposed to human race) similar to what we would call a "breed" when referring to animals?

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
To clarify, I was asking about your inconsistency, based on your views and definition of murder.

You deflected it to ask about my definition of murder, which is irrelevant to my question.

You thereby avoided answering the question.

Again.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:54:22 PM
Could you please define "race of people".
How about a group or number of people? Is that better? Like you don't know where I am going with this.  ::)
I am not the one who started this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 04:56:25 PM
To clarify, I was asking about your inconsistency, based on your views and definition of murder.

You deflected it to ask about my definition of murder, which is irrelevant to my question.

You thereby avoided answering the question.

Again.
What a short memory we have.
Start a new thread and we can talk about it all you want. I will guarantee you that most here will not like the questions I ask that paint some of you as murderers.  ;)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 24, 2017, 05:07:07 PM
How about a group or number of people? Is that better? Like you don't know where I am going with this.  ::)
I am not the one who started this thread.  ;)
I was off the grid for a while, so I am still trying to figure out where this thread came from, let alone where it's going. But I will never miss an opportunity to put some good seasoning on popcorn (as long as it ain't stale or burnt)  ;).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 24, 2017, 05:21:18 PM
I was off the grid for a while, so I am still trying to figure out where this thread came from, let alone where it's going. But I will never miss an opportunity to put some good seasoning on popcorn (as long as it ain't stale or burnt)  ;).
This is both stale and burnt
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 05:22:50 PM
What a short memory we have.
I knew you would turn it into a discussion of Amalek.

Regardless, please answer the question first.

How do you explain not wanting to legislate against certain types of murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 05:27:57 PM
I knew you would turn it into a discussion of Amalek.
..and you decide to start this thread anyway?  ::)

You want to know if abortion = murder. I need to know what you consider murder to answer that. I will make this easy for you. Is killing a 1 year old Amalek murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 24, 2017, 05:31:59 PM
..and you decide to start this thread anyway?  ::)

You want to know if abortion = murder. I need to know what you consider murder to answer that. I will make this easy for you. Is killing a 1 year old Amalek murder?

Not if G-d told you to do it.  We can have this discussion when PP claim they are performing abortions because G-d told them to ;)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 05:32:38 PM
..and you decide to start this thread anyway?  ::)

You want to know if abortion = murder. I need to know what you consider murder to answer that. I will make this easy for you. Is killing a 1 year old Amalek murder?

Acc. to Jewish law, no.
Acc. to secular law, yes.

Next
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 05:34:56 PM
Firstly, check your yichus, you're answering questions with questions. Religious reasons, right or wrong, are a different scenario than simply doing something because of your own personal circumstances.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 05:36:39 PM
Not if G-d told you to do it. 
Very interesting but now you opened up another can of worms. If someone says their religion claims G-d told them to do it that makes it ok and not murder. How much deeper you want to dig this hole?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 05:42:54 PM
Very interesting but now you opened up another can of worms. If someone says their religion claims G-d told them to do it that makes it ok and not murder. How much deeper you want to dig this hole?

You can't use religion to justify murder in a court of law.
You can use religion to justify it to yourself but you must be willing to face the consequences.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: gozalim on January 24, 2017, 05:44:20 PM
If someone says their religion claims G-d told them to do it that makes it ok and not murder.
doesn't mean I won't kill him first in self defense
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 05:47:48 PM
..and you decide to start this thread anyway?  ::)

You want to know if abortion = murder. I need to know what you consider murder to answer that. I will make this easy for you. Is killing a 1 year old Amalek murder?
I am asking according to your definition, not mine.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 05:48:57 PM
Very interesting but now you opened up another can of worms. If someone says their religion claims G-d told them to do it that makes it ok and not murder. How much deeper you want to dig this hole?
It depends if they're right. If G-d didn't really allow it, then it's murder.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 05:49:43 PM
Now please answer my question.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 05:50:19 PM
Acc. to Jewish law, no.
Acc. to secular law, yes.

Next
So anyone that kills a Amalek (man, women or child) is a murderer according to the laws of this great country?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 05:52:11 PM
It depends if they're right. If G-d didn't really allow it, then it's murder.

You missed the huge worm that snuck out.
Is your God the same God that 300m other Americans believe in?

Would you set this murder policy for everyone or just for yourself?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 05:55:49 PM
So anyone that kills a Amalek (man, women or child) is a murderer according to the laws of this great country?
Yes, but that has already been established. Regardless, when was the last time you heard of a (sane) american jew, or any jew for that matter, justify a killing with the fact that said victim was an amaleiki? Never. Now for abortion, that can't be said. Apples and oranges. Not a stance on abortion, just a stance on the comparison.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 05:56:04 PM
You missed the huge worm that snuck out.
Is your God the same God that 300m other Americans believe in?

Would you set this murder policy for everyone or just for yourself?
I don't understand.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 05:56:25 PM
So anyone that kills a Amalek (man, women or child) is a murderer according to the laws of this great country?

If by "kill" you mean walking over to them and blowing their brains out for no reason, then yes of course you are a murderer.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 05:58:37 PM
I don't understand.

You're saying its okay to murder someone because your God said so.
What you're forgetting is that Joe Shmoe, his God said to kill schoolchildren.
And Ahmed's God told him to kill anyone that isn't Muslim.

And on and on.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 05:59:22 PM
I am asking according to your definition, not mine.
You can ask all you want. I said beforehand exactly what I was going do and you went ahead anyway. Now you painted yourself in a corner.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 06:02:03 PM
If by "kill" you mean walking over to them and blowing their brains out for no reason, then yes of course you are a murderer.
Need clarification.
Is G-d telling you to do it a reason or would that be a no reason and you are murderer according to laws of this country.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:02:28 PM
You're saying its okay to murder someone because your God said so.
What you're forgetting is that Joe Shmoe, his God said to kill schoolchildren.
And Ahmed's God told him to kill anyone that isn't Muslim.

And on and on.
And by Joe Shmoe and Muslim standards, they have done nothing wrong. The real point that needs to be established here before this can properly be discussed, is whether this is based on personal beliefs or the law of the land.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 06:02:30 PM
You're saying its okay to murder someone because your God said so.
What you're forgetting is that Joe Shmoe, his God said to kill schoolchildren.
And Ahmed's God told him to kill anyone that isn't Muslim.

And on and on.
And the laws of this great country will prosecute all.

Which I am okay with.

And practically speaking, G-d didn't tell us to kill anyone under existing circumstances, so the point is only academic.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 06:03:52 PM
You can ask all you want. I said beforehand exactly what I was going do and you went ahead anyway. Now you painted yourself in a corner.
You didn't say to the exclusion of answering the question.

Which you obviously can't.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:05:05 PM
Need clarification.
Is G-d telling you to do it a reason or would that be a no reason and you are murderer according to laws of this country.
This has been clarified. The laws of the land stand regardless of what an individual decides to believe in and act upon. There is a jewish concept called "dina d'malchusa dina" which means the law of the land is the law. Some argue as to what extent that is applicable, but everyone agrees the concept exists.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 06:05:51 PM
And by Joe Shmoe and Muslim standards, they have done nothing wrong. The real point that needs to be established here before this can properly be discussed, is whether this is based on personal beliefs or the law of the land.
Personal beliefs are meaningless.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:07:22 PM
Personal beliefs are meaningless.
By personal beliefs, I meant religion, and yes as far as the law of the land, they are. I believe we all agree on that.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on January 24, 2017, 06:07:41 PM
Need clarification.
Is G-d telling you to do it a reason or would that be a no reason and you are murderer according to laws of this country.

There is a separation of church and state in the USA, so yes you would be a murderer according to our courts.

Personal beliefs are meaningless.

Meaningless to everyone besides the person himself :)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:09:47 PM
Regardless of all this though, the OP question still stands based on your beliefs. OPs beliefs are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 06:10:03 PM
By personal beliefs, I meant religion, and yes as far as the law of the land, they are. I believe we all agree on that.
Yes
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 24, 2017, 06:14:42 PM
So anyone that kills a Amalek (man, women or child) is a murderer according to the laws of this great country?
Of course
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 06:16:07 PM
Regardless of all this though, the OP question still stands based on your beliefs. OPs beliefs are irrelevant.
As I stated in the other thread my beliefs on that are personal. I am not going to pass judgement on others.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:20:53 PM
As I stated in the other thread my beliefs on that are personal. I am not going to pass judgement on others.
Wonderful! So we sorted this out for OP. OP asked a question that clearly regards your personal beliefs. You are entitled like us all to publicly discuss your personal beliefs or keep them to yourself. Clearly in this case you want to keep them personal (completely understood) so OP should probably stop with this line of questioning as it is meaningless. JTZ correct me if I oversimplified that incorrectly.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 06:24:02 PM
Wonderful! So we sorted this out for OP. OP asked a question that clearly regards your personal beliefs. You are entitled like us all to publicly discuss your personal beliefs or keep them to yourself. Clearly in this case you want to keep them personal (completely understood) so OP should probably stop with this line of questioning as it is meaningless. JTZ correct me if I oversimplified that incorrectly.
Seems pretty simple to me as it was in the other thread.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 24, 2017, 06:24:35 PM
Wonderful! So we sorted this out for OP. OP asked a question that clearly regards your personal beliefs. You are entitled like us all to publicly discuss your personal beliefs or keep them to yourself. Clearly in this case you want to keep them personal (completely understood) so OP should probably stop with this line of questioning as it is meaningless. JTZ correct me if I oversimplified that incorrectly.

I think you misunderstood.  JTZ will correct you shortly.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:24:57 PM
I think you misunderstood.  JTZ will correct you shortly.
I guess not.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 24, 2017, 06:30:48 PM
You understand where this is going, so you really can't answer.
I knew where it was going before the one who asked the question.  ;)

I can answer it but choose not to as it is getting way to personal.
I made it clear in the other thread I was not going to answer it.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 24, 2017, 06:37:47 PM
Ones personal beliefs are just that, personal. Unless those beliefs are yours, you may not agree with them, you may not understand them, they may not make sense to you. Bottom line is, we as jews have a lot of beliefs that may seem extremely eccentric or even worse at times and here is someone who doesn't necessarily share those beliefs, saying he doesn't pass judgement. I will do the same. To each their own.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 24, 2017, 07:24:32 PM
Not if G-d told you to do it.  We can have this discussion when PP claim they are performing abortions because G-d told them to ;)
I think you might be mistaken here.

Only a Jewish king is allowed to initiate a war, and only in the case of Amalek, the only acceptable goal of such war is total annihilation. However, even in that case, it was a prophet that came to the king and told him to initiate the war.

A line can be drawn between war, and murder. And in cases other than Amalek, certain things would be considered war crimes, even by Jewish law.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 24, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
From the other thread:

Start a new thread and we can talk about it all you want. I will guarantee you that most here will not like the questions I ask that paint some of you as murderers.  ;)

So the "we can talk about it" was a lie. Or perhaps you'll try to play word games with us?

Either way, you certainly haven't painted any of us as murderers. I can guarantee you that none of us has ever killed an Amaleki.

In fact, Amalek doesn't exist today in an identifiable way, so you deflected a legitimate question, which you said "we" would discuss, into a completely hypothetical discussion while claiming that some of us are murderers.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 12:09:04 AM
Happy I was mostly unavailable today.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 12:53:15 AM
From the other thread:

So the "we can talk about it" was a lie. Or perhaps you'll try to play word games with us?

Either way, you certainly haven't painted any of us as murderers. I can guarantee you that none of us has ever killed an Amaleki.

In fact, Amalek doesn't exist today in an identifiable way, so you deflected a legitimate question, which you said "we" would discuss, into a completely hypothetical discussion while claiming that some of us are murderers.
So all these pages we haven't been talking about it?  ::)
I said I would be asking questions and that has all I have been doing. I told you in the other thread and it this thread why I am not going to answer that question. You insist on keep pushing it and digging the whole deeper. Since that is want you want how about we make this about a whole religion?

Please explain The meaning of Deuteronomy 25:17-19. IIRC this is two of your commandments so it should be very easy for you.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 12:59:19 AM
Please explain The meaning of Deuteronomy 25:17-19. If IIRC this is two of your commandments so it should very easy for you.

See:
I think you might be mistaken here.

Only a Jewish king is allowed to initiate a war, and only in the case of Amalek, the only acceptable goal of such war is total annihilation. However, even in that case, it was a prophet that came to the king and told him to initiate the war.

A line can be drawn between war, and murder. And in cases other than Amalek, certain things would be considered war crimes, even by Jewish law.

And for further reading: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188345/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-1.htm
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 01:15:18 AM


So all these pages we haven't been talking about it?  ::)
I said I would be asking questions and that has all I have been doing. I told you in the other thread and it this thread why I am not going to answer that question. You insist on keep pushing it and digging the whole deeper. Since that is want you want how about we make this about a whole religion?

Please explain The meaning of Deuteronomy 25:17-19. IIRC this is two of your commandments so it should be very easy for you.

No, we have not been talking about your inconsistency about abortion.

Which is what you said we would talk about.

Again, you are being untruthful.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 01:27:14 AM
Again, you are being untruthful.
I told you I was going to ask questions you did not like and I am.

So here is another one. According to Deuteronomy 25:17-19 was every man, women and child instructed to be killed or murdered as all civilized countries would call it?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 01:43:47 AM
While we are at it here is another question. If Amalekites are around today what needs to be done about it?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 01:45:19 AM
I told you I was going to ask questions you did not like and I am.

You also said you would discuss what I asked.

I'm not addressing your questions until you address the question you said you would.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 01:54:02 AM
I'm not addressing your questions until you address the question you said you would.
You won't accept my answer. I guess we will just have to draw our own conclusions then.

My conclusion is you are OK with killing women and children.  :P
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 02:03:15 AM
You won't accept my answer. I guess we will just have to draw our own conclusions then.

My conclusion is you are OK with killing women and children. 
You didn't answer.
There's nothing to accept or not accept.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 02:33:53 AM
You didn't answer.
There's nothing to accept or not accept.
What part of this that I have posted several times don't you understand?
I can answer it but choose not to as it is getting way to personal.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yitrap on January 25, 2017, 03:01:20 AM
While we are at it here is another question. If Amalekites are around today what needs to be done about it?
Did you read

Deuteronomy 25:19
?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 03:05:51 AM
What part of this that I have posted several times don't you understand?
The part where you lied and said you would.

Quote
Start a new thread and we can talk about it all you want.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 03:11:13 AM
Did you read
?
Yes and it wasn't clear or I didn't understand it fully.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 03:11:37 AM
My conclusion is you are OK with killing women and children.  :P
Were you OK with this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden) or this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki)?

Were those justified? Did they bring about positive outcomes, despite the seeming atrocity if viewed out of context?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yitrap on January 25, 2017, 03:12:03 AM
Yes and it wasn't clear or I didn't understand it fully.
Therefore, it will be, when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to possess, that you shall obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens. You shall not forget!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 03:14:27 AM
Yes and it wasn't clear or I didn't understand it fully.
Go back to the Halachic authority (only one that addresses these kinds of issues IINM) that I posted.
And for further reading: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188345/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-1.htm
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 03:22:53 AM
Were you OK with this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden) or this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki)?

Were those justified? Did they bring about positive outcomes, despite the seeming atrocity if viewed out of context?
Lets take the second one. If the purpose was to exterminate a whole race then it was not justified.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 03:25:41 AM
Therefore, it will be, when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to possess, that you shall obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens. You shall not forget!
I take that to mean if some are still alive today the are to be obliterated. Am I reading it correctly?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 03:38:26 AM
No, we have not been talking about your inconsistency about abortion.
You say they are inconsistent. Don't pretend I have not stated my views abortion.

Now can I get my answer if you believe it is OK to kill women and children?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 03:40:47 AM
You say they are inconsistent. Don't pretend I have not stated my views abortion.

Now can I get my answer if you believe it is OK to kill women and children?
I asked you to explain how you differentiate between wanting murder to be illegal, but not abortion (which you also consider murder).

No.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 03:48:32 AM
(which you also consider murder).
I said abortion was murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 04:11:16 AM
Lets take the second one. If the purpose was to exterminate a whole race then it was not justified.
Why are you speculating about an historical event? What was the purpose?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 05:32:39 AM
Why are you speculating about an historical event? What was the purpose?
To end the war.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 05:37:24 AM
To end the war.
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?

(As a side note, if the enemy is داعش would killing children be justified?)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 05:48:53 AM
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?
If the decision was up to me I am not sure what I would have done. So your answer would be I am not sure.

So you are trying to equate this with exterminate of a race because they were both done for what some would call the greater good. Am I following correctly?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 06:05:11 AM
Go back to the Halachic authority (only one that addresses these kinds of issues IINM) that I posted.
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 25, 2017, 06:51:20 AM
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm

That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 07:07:27 AM
That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 25, 2017, 07:22:01 AM
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?

Yes and I don't know  :)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 07:23:37 AM
Yes and I don't know  :)
Finally a simple answer. TY!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm
And? Have your issues been answered? Are you now satisfied, and we can go back to discuss abortion? :P
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 08:10:24 AM
And? Have your issues been answered? Are you now satisfied, and we can go back to discuss abortion? :P
Yes so now I understand the OP believes it is OK to kill women and children so my personal views are meaningless.  :)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 08:16:55 AM
I said abortion was murder?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 08:20:09 AM
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
Rabbis Freeman and Moss, both of whom are extremely learned and talented, are, with all due respect, not considered Halachic authorities (neither am I). That is why I pointed you to an actual Halachic authority (which I don't think anyone here would claim is non-traditional, or non-mainstream).

The way I understand Maimonides (especially taking into account the section of his compendium where he placed this Halacha) it is a Mitzvah that pertains to a king, and not upon each individual jew.

Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 09:30:56 AM
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 09:32:51 AM
Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
Stop right their. Soldiers can be murderers.

GIYF: William Laws Calley Jr.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yitrap on January 25, 2017, 09:42:30 AM
I take that to mean if some are still alive today the are to be obliterated. Am I reading it correctly?
Only
"when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to posses"

Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 09:43:25 AM
Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon
:)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 09:47:09 AM


Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
because they we just following orders?

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 10:05:10 AM
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 10:09:19 AM
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 10:20:20 AM
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.
Which leap is crazy?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Which leap is crazy?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 25, 2017, 10:24:41 AM
Life and a human being are 2 different things. Life is shared across animals, plants and so on. As per JTZ, yes life starts at conception, but that life may never even become a human being. The assumption you are making to prove his inconsistencies is only an assumption and he clearly isn't agrering with it. Why does this have to continue?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 25, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
It doesn't.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 11:36:38 AM
Stop right there. Soldiers can be murderers.

GIYF: William Laws Calley Jr.
FTFY

Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.

I suggest you read further down through Maimonides, where you will see that there are specific ways of how war is to be waged and conducted.

I will also point out, that despite several opportunities, it was only once (IINM) that a Jewish king waged a war on Amalek, for the purpose of total annihilation, and at that time was commanded by a prophet to do so (Maimonides also discusses at length the qualifications of a true prophet).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 11:42:15 AM
Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.
You can argue all you want but the facts say different. What is a filling?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 12:17:33 PM
FTFY

Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.

I suggest you read further down through Maimonides, where you will see that there are specific ways of how war is to be waged and conducted.

I will also point out, that despite several opportunities, it was only once (IINM) that a Jewish king waged a war on Amalek, for the purpose of total annihilation, and at that time was commanded by a prophet to do so (Maimonides also discusses at length the qualifications of a true prophet).
so you feel that Eichmann should have been exonerated?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 25, 2017, 12:31:51 PM
so you feel that Eichmann should have been exonerated?
There is a very big difference between the way people were treated in the Holocaust and simply killing in war. Had the victims of the Holocaust only been killed, it would have been doing them a favor compared to what they got.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 12:34:40 PM
There is a very big difference between the way people were treated in the Holocaust and simply killing in war. Had the victims of the Holocaust only been killed, it would have been doing them a favor compared to what they got.
So it is a question of where you draw the line. Very subjective
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 25, 2017, 12:37:55 PM
So it is a question of where you draw the line. Very subjective
I don't disagree that most of this discussion varries based on ones personal interpretation of several differen factors such as life, murder, human being etc. I'd have to say that most times an army is instructed to kill by it leader, it is not classified as murder. Obviously this isn't every case, but lets be real, the Holocaust was nowhere near the typical exemplary case
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 12:41:46 PM
I don't disagree that most of this discussion varries based on ones personal interpretation of several differen factors such as life, murder, human being etc. I'd have to say that most times an army is instructed to kill by it leader, it is not classified as murder. Obviously this isn't every case, but lets be real, the Holocaust was nowhere near the typical exemplary case

The difference is not that they did it as an army under orders but that it happened in the regular course of a war. The would not apply to the way ExGingi is applying it.

ETA: I'm done. I don't want to get pulled in here.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: springles on January 25, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm
Im no expert but I can get behind the reasoning and opinions in these 2 articles
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 25, 2017, 12:59:42 PM
so you feel that Eichmann should have been exonerated?
No.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 04:25:05 PM
The difference is not that they did it as an army under orders but that it happened in the regular course of a war. The would not apply to the way ExGingi is applying it.

ETA: I'm done. I don't want to get pulled in here.
Don't leave now. What's the problem?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: David Smith on January 25, 2017, 04:31:38 PM
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm
כופרים
Why would someone believe in a God they feel the need to apologize for?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 04:37:50 PM
Don't leave now. What's the problem?
Sorry
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 04:44:51 PM
כופרים
Why would someone believe in a God they feel the need to apologize for?
Who is apologizing for G-d?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 04:45:37 PM
Sorry
So again you refuse to answer questions?  :P
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 25, 2017, 04:48:25 PM
So again you refuse to answer questions? 
I answered more questions than you in this thread.
Besides many of my questions are answers
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 25, 2017, 04:50:38 PM
I answered more questions than you in this thread.
Besides many of my questions are answers
...but I said all I was going to do is ask questions.  ;)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ElectricCPR on January 26, 2017, 09:31:34 AM
Ask your Local ORTHODOX Rabbi! (Nothing added to the word ORTHODOX.) Please don't take this thread and turn it into antisemitism!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 26, 2017, 09:32:42 AM
...but I said all I was going to do is ask questions.  ;)
same
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Mordyk on January 26, 2017, 09:39:07 AM
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 26, 2017, 09:49:26 AM
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
We already established that A life and a human being are not interpreted as the same in everyone's books. Also keep in mind, taking a life is not always murder.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: David Smith on January 26, 2017, 10:07:55 AM
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
Halacha would disagree.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: cholent on January 26, 2017, 10:34:46 AM
Ask your Local ORTHODOX Rabbi! (Nothing added to the word ORTHODOX.) Please don't take this thread and turn it into antisemitism!
Was that aimed at JTZ? Lol
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Mordyk on January 26, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
We already established that A life and a human being are not interpreted as the same in everyone's books. Also keep in mind, taking a life is not always murder.
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 26, 2017, 07:13:24 PM
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
Ok?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 26, 2017, 07:15:41 PM
Wow this thread took a turn. Great job OP.  :P
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: good sam on January 26, 2017, 07:28:00 PM
ETA: I'm done. I don't want to get pulled in here.

Pet peeve

People who post numerous times in a thread that they're leaving the conversation for good.

1. You're probably not.
2. Nobody cares.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 26, 2017, 08:33:54 PM
Wow this thread took a turn. Great job OP. 
Your idea. 😛
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 26, 2017, 08:35:20 PM
Your idea. 😛
Actually it wasn't. I guess you missed the  ;) in the post you are referring to.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 26, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
Actually it wasn't. I guess you missed the  ;) in the post you are referring to.
Wasn't this over?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 26, 2017, 08:38:34 PM
Wasn't this over?
I thought it was but they dragged me back in.  :)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Cheesecake on January 26, 2017, 08:40:05 PM
Wasn't this over?
We're not discussing it any more. We're just discussing discussing it.

If you want, we can start discussing discussing discussing it.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on January 26, 2017, 08:40:48 PM
I thought it was but they dragged me back in.  :)
Leave!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: HBS on January 27, 2017, 06:04:02 AM
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
So it's the method of "killing" which makes something murder?
If it's "humane", like, I don't know, lethal injection, then it's fine?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: wayfe on January 27, 2017, 08:44:46 AM
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 27, 2017, 09:04:57 AM
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.

Wow!  +1
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 27, 2017, 10:49:57 AM
@JTZ,
I know it is only a stupid like button but I never planned on using it. I did this time and never will again. Not only do I agree with what you said I also understand it completely. I know this is only JS but I should have never responded in the first place to the OP. If I was the OP I would ask to have this thread deleted. For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer. I am impressed you would take the time to write such an eloquent response.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Sport on January 27, 2017, 10:52:26 AM
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
While I do agree to the general sentiment that jewish law need not fit in with "modern" ethics, I disagree with some of your points made in this post. All mitzvos are meant to refine our charachter and make us more like god. Yes, there are some that we may not understand at all or fully how they do make us better people. However, there are many that are intuitive in how they improve us, to the extent that if there was no torah we would still practice then. I believe that if we approach these mitzvos from the perspective that we only practice them becuase god say so and they dont have any reasoning behind them they will have minimul affect on improving us. Yes we would give charity even if it had nothinf to do with being compassionate and we didn't understand the benifit  but luckily charity is an act of compassion and we are required to feel that compassion.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on January 27, 2017, 10:53:06 AM
For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer.

Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 27, 2017, 10:54:36 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MEZagW8AA88cc.jpg)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: JTZ on January 27, 2017, 10:55:27 AM
Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.
Of course. That is how some of us learn.  ;)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: good sam on January 27, 2017, 11:01:25 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MEZagW8AA88cc.jpg)
Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on January 27, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"
It is an emotional argument like the vast majority of arguments on this toic.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: wayfe on January 27, 2017, 01:54:08 PM
Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.

There's a difference between explaining and trying to explain away- AKA apologizing.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: wayfe on January 27, 2017, 02:11:13 PM
While I do agree to the general sentiment that jewish law need not fit in with "modern" ethics, I disagree with some of your points made in this post. All mitzvos are meant to refine our charachter and make us more like god. Yes, there are some that we may not understand at all or fully how they do make us better people. However, there are many that are intuitive in how they improve us, to the extent that if there was no torah we would still practice then. I believe that if we approach these mitzvos from the perspective that we only practice them becuase god say so and they dont have any reasoning behind them they will have minimul affect on improving us. Yes we would give charity even if it had nothinf to do with being compassionate and we didn't understand the benifit  but luckily charity is an act of compassion and we are required to feel that compassion.

The problem with only doing Mitzvos because they make sense, feel right or are 'intuitive' is that you run into roadblocks when society's view shifts as it has over the millenia and you find that current scientific theory, or pop culture is at odds with your beliefs (ex. creation ex nihilo, prohibition against homosexual relationships, or abortions)

As to your point regarding Mizvos making us more like G-d, things get more complicated.

I was taught that you lead with your mind and follow with your heart. Your mind analyzes a situation and come up with the correct course of action and only then does it tell the heart what is the appropriate emotion to feel. We do charitable acts first because we were commanded to, and then we follow with appropriate emotions of brotherly love, pity, compassion...
So the commandment is primary but the intuative feeling is secondary.

Here's more complicated part-
G-d is not a person or a thing- He does not have attributes and we can't define Him. G-d chooses modalities (mercy, kindness, compassion, strength... etc) in which to express Himself to us, and He does request that we immitate them. But He is not bound by them and they do not define Him. It is merely His free choice.
So the mitzvah didn't have to be kindness or compassion. There is no intrinsic value to it. It could have been anything. It doesn't matter that it's intuitive or feels right or good to us.
It is only the right and good thing to do- simply because He wanted it to be so.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 27, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us, which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it... to each their own though.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on January 27, 2017, 02:30:10 PM
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us, which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it... to each their own though.

I don't think you are arguing. What were you taught to do until you understand?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 27, 2017, 02:35:18 PM
I don't think you are arguing. What were you taught to do until you understand?
Naseh vnishma of course... but that doesn't excuse not analyzing reasons where possible. Otherwise, what even is "torah learning"? I could be misunderstanding her and you.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Super Speed on January 27, 2017, 02:35:47 PM
I know it is only a stupid like button but I never planned on using it. I did this time and never will again. Not only do I agree with what you said I also understand it completely. I know this is only JS but I should have never responded in the first place to the OP. If I was the OP I would ask to have this thread deleted. For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer. I am impressed you would take the time to write such an eloquent response.
Wow I'm actually starting to contemplate that you may be normal after all
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Super Speed on January 27, 2017, 02:36:00 PM
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
Beautiful!!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on January 27, 2017, 02:50:46 PM
Naseh vnishma of course... but that doesn't excuse not analyzing reasons where possible. Otherwise, what even is "torah learning"? I could be misunderstanding her and you.

I can't speak for wayfe, bit my point is that all Jews believe that we do mitzvos because Hashem told us to (Na'seh), and all Jews believe we should work on understanding (Nishma).

The only diffences of opinion is how much emphasis to put on each one.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Sport on January 27, 2017, 03:12:22 PM
The problem with only doing Mitzvos because they make sense, feel right or are 'intuitive' is that you run into roadblocks when society's view shifts as it has over the millenia and you find that current scientific theory, or pop culture is at odds with your beliefs (ex. creation ex nihilo, prohibition against homosexual relationships, or abortions)

As to your point regarding Mizvos making us more like G-d, things get more complicated.

I was taught that you lead with your mind and follow with your heart. Your mind analyzes a situation and come up with the correct course of action and only then does it tell the heart what is the appropriate emotion to feel. We do charitable acts first because we were commanded to, and then we follow with appropriate emotions of brotherly love, pity, compassion...
So the commandment is primary but the intuative feeling is secondary.

Here's more complicated part-
G-d is not a person or a thing- He does not have attributes and we can't define Him. G-d chooses modalities (mercy, kindness, compassion, strength... etc) in which to express Himself to us, and He does request that we immitate them. But He is not bound by them and they do not define Him. It is merely His free choice.
So the mitzvah didn't have to be kindness or compassion. There is no intrinsic value to it. It could have been anything. It doesn't matter that it's intuitive or feels right or good to us.
It is only the right and good thing to do- simply because He wanted it to be so.
Uch, its friday and dont have the time to respond appropriately as you said this is complicated, but I'll give it a shot.

I agree completely that doing mitzvahs solely for the benifts they provide us comes with the great risk you mentioned, thats why I would never advocate that. However, the fact that secular ethics don't correspond with jewish ones does not mean that we as humans are incapable of reaching these truths. It may be extremely challenging but they are objective truths. Luckily we do have the Torah that outlines them all for us so we're not left on our own where we would have most likely become misguided.

Now that we do have the Torah, that doesnt mean we should ignore the intuitive nature of the mitzvos and their benefits. Just to underscore the importance of seeing the benifits of the mitzvos:
 In fact the sefe hachinuch writes by one of the mitzvos (i forget which) that he searched and agonized over that mitzvha to try and find a reason for it because he felt that if he didn't come up with a reason his son would be at risk to abandon the entire torah. Even after finding a reason and benifit behind all the other 612 mitzvis he still felt this concern.

As to your points regarding the heart following the head. I agree to an extent, but its not magic. If you have no understanding and appreciation of what you are doing it will have minimal impact on your heart.
There's much more to this discussion but shabbos is approaching and I'm ignorring my wife and kids :)
Good shabbos!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ExGingi on January 28, 2017, 12:17:56 PM
Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"
To quote Rashi in Sanhedrin 72(2):
יצא ראשו - באשה המקשה לילד ומסוכנת וקתני רישא החיה פושטת ידה וחותכתו ומוציאתו לאברים דכל זמן שלא יצא לאויר העולם לאו נפש הוא וניתן להורגו ולהציל את אמו אבל יצא ראשו אין נוגעים בו להורגו דהוה ליה כילוד ואין דוחין נפש מפני נפש
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on January 28, 2017, 12:19:22 PM
Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"

Many Pro Choice advocates campaigned vigorously for partial birth abortions.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Emkay on January 28, 2017, 12:33:30 PM
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us, which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it... to each their own though.
How do you explain Chukim?.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aradisc on January 28, 2017, 07:31:44 PM
Whole lot of argument in this thread based on feelings, and meta-arguments about Amalek. I have mixed feelings on the subject of abortion myself. But why don't we seek to answer the question directly from the halachic perspective: http://dinonline.org/2015/02/06/abortion-in-torah-law/
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: HBS on January 28, 2017, 09:48:14 PM
To quote Rashi in Sanhedrin 72(2):
יצא ראשו - באשה המקשה לילד ומסוכנת וקתני רישא החיה פושטת ידה וחותכתו ומוציאתו לאברים דכל זמן שלא יצא לאויר העולם לאו נפש הוא וניתן להורגו ולהציל את אמו אבל יצא ראשו אין נוגעים בו להורגו דהוה ליה כילוד ואין דוחין נפש מפני נפש
Which is exactly why the perspective in Judaism is different than the perspective of other religions. And why I hate how everyone lumps it together.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: David Smith on January 28, 2017, 09:59:40 PM
Uch, its friday and dont have the time to respond appropriately as you said this is complicated, but I'll give it a shot.

I agree completely that doing mitzvahs solely for the benifts they provide us comes with the great risk you mentioned, thats why I would never advocate that. However, the fact that secular ethics don't correspond with jewish ones does not mean that we as humans are incapable of reaching these truths. It may be extremely challenging but they are objective truths. Luckily we do have the Torah that outlines them all for us so we're not left on our own where we would have most likely become misguided.

Now that we do have the Torah, that doesnt mean we should ignore the intuitive nature of the mitzvos and their benefits. Just to underscore the importance of seeing the benifits of the mitzvos:
 In fact the sefe hachinuch writes by one of the mitzvos (i forget which) that he searched and agonized over that mitzvha to try and find a reason for it because he felt that if he didn't come up with a reason his son would be at risk to abandon the entire torah. Even after finding a reason and benifit behind all the other 612 mitzvis he still felt this concern.

As to your points regarding the heart following the head. I agree to an extent, but its not magic. If you have no understanding and appreciation of what you are doing it will have minimal impact on your heart.
There's much more to this discussion but shabbos is approaching and I'm ignorring my wife and kids :)
Good shabbos!
You definitely are supposed to try to understand them and have them impact your life, but if you decide not to do something because you don't understand it or don't agree with it morally; then the Torah isn't changing you, you're changing the Torah. At the end of the day, the designer knows what makes the product tick better than the user. Rationalizing the Torah is wonderful, but if you conform it to fit your rationalization you're not a believer. Anybody who feels the need to apologize for G-d doesn't believe in him. As nice as the social justice aspects of religion are, if you think that's all G-d should or has the right to dictate you're a כופר.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Sport on January 28, 2017, 10:26:47 PM
You definitely are supposed to try to understand them and have them impact your life, but if you decide not to do something because you don't understand it or don't agree with it morally; then the Torah isn't changing you, you're changing the Torah. At the end of the day, the designer knows what makes the product tick better than the user. Rationalizing the Torah is wonderful, but if you conform it to fit your rationalization you're not a believer. Anybody who feels the need to apologize for G-d doesn't believe in him. As nice as the social justice aspects of religion are, if you think that's all G-d should or has the right to dictate you're a כופר.
Not sure why you quoted me, nothing that I said was addressed specifically with rationalizing the 2 cases being discussed here, I was presenting a general hashkafic outlook.
I would say though, that because we know that hashem is just and his mitzvos and the torah are meant to be a guide for us to become just, like him, that does raise a difficulty when there is a mitzvah that seems unjust. It's a flaw in our understanding but doesn't mean we cant be bothered by and question it, as long as it's the context of trying to gain a better understanding.
Thats not rationalizing It's comprehending and knowing god.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Sport on January 28, 2017, 10:26:47 PM
You definitely are supposed to try to understand them and have them impact your life, but if you decide not to do something because you don't understand it or don't agree with it morally; then the Torah isn't changing you, you're changing the Torah. At the end of the day, the designer knows what makes the product tick better than the user. Rationalizing the Torah is wonderful, but if you conform it to fit your rationalization you're not a believer. Anybody who feels the need to apologize for G-d doesn't believe in him. As nice as the social justice aspects of religion are, if you think that's all G-d should or has the right to dictate you're a כופר.
Not sure why you quoted me, nothing that I said was addressed specifically with rationalizing the 2 cases being discussed here, I was presenting a general hashkafic outlook.
I would say though, that because we know that hashem is just and his mitzvos and the torah are meant to be a guide for us to become just, like him, that does raise a difficulty when there is a mitzvah that seems unjust. It's a flaw in our understanding but doesn't mean we cant be bothered by and question it, as long as it's the context of trying to gain a better understanding.
Thats not rationalizing It's comprehending and knowing god.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: wayfe on January 28, 2017, 11:59:16 PM
Uch, its friday and dont have the time to respond appropriately as you said this is complicated, but I'll give it a shot.

I agree completely that doing mitzvahs solely for the benifts they provide us comes with the great risk you mentioned, thats why I would never advocate that. However, the fact that secular ethics don't correspond with jewish ones does not mean that we as humans are incapable of reaching these truths. It may be extremely challenging but they are objective truths. Luckily we do have the Torah that outlines them all for us so we're not left on our own where we would have most likely become misguided.

Now that we do have the Torah, that doesnt mean we should ignore the intuitive nature of the mitzvos and their benefits. Just to underscore the importance of seeing the benifits of the mitzvos:
 In fact the sefe hachinuch writes by one of the mitzvos (i forget which) that he searched and agonized over that mitzvha to try and find a reason for it because he felt that if he didn't come up with a reason his son would be at risk to abandon the entire torah. Even after finding a reason and benifit behind all the other 612 mitzvis he still felt this concern.

As to your points regarding the heart following the head. I agree to an extent, but its not magic. If you have no understanding and appreciation of what you are doing it will have minimal impact on your heart.
There's much more to this discussion but shabbos is approaching and I'm ignorring my wife and kids :)
Good shabbos!

We're in agreement.

I'm just saying that the rationale is secondary.

First and foremost we do Mitzvos because we were commanded. Whether we understand them or not.

Of course we always try to understand every commandment to the extent of our reasoning abilities. And of course the reason enhances our actions. (טַעַם = reason and taste...).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: wayfe on January 29, 2017, 12:19:45 AM
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us,

Yes, we are all entitled (at least according to American law) to believe what we choose. I'm not sure I understand what you've written but if you're saying that you only do Mitzvos because they make you a better person or because it a humane way of life- then I (respectfully) challenge your belief system.

Quote
which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it...

Your addition of the word 'just' indicates that you did not understand my post.
I specifically added to my post
Quote
ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.

I see it as the balance of striving to attain more knowledge and acceptance of the suprarational divine as cyclical;
As human beings, we are finite creations. As such, it should be impossible for us to understand the divine, the infinite. According to the laws of logic- something finite cannot contain infinity. How can a finite mind understand infinity? As we delve into and explore any topic in Torah intellectually and logically- we stretch the limits of our minds but eventually we hit the glass ceiling. We know there is more yet we can't understand it. At that point, we bypass the limits of our logically constrained minds and understand with our soul. This in turn enriches and broadens the mind so that it has even more capacity to understand- and the cycle starts again.
Not sure if this made any sense, but I tried...
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
Abortion = Murder?
Did we ever get an answer?  :)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on November 09, 2017, 05:41:42 PM
Abortion = Murder?
Did we ever get an answer?  :)
Well, JTZ left us before we could really sort it out. Really ready for Friday aren't you?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
Well, JTZ left us before we could really sort it out. Really ready for Friday aren't you?
You are the one to blame for me asking.  :P
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 05:54:56 PM
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 06:06:02 PM
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?
I guess easier to justify in their own mind? Also they look at the polls.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: henche on November 09, 2017, 06:10:38 PM
Murder is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
I guess easier to justify in their own mind? Also they look at the polls.
Except that by doing so they lose the entire moral justification. Do you mean to say that the polls count more than something they claim to be murder? Shocking.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 06:11:53 PM
Murder is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought.
According to this the Nazis weren't murderers.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 06:18:05 PM
Except that by doing so they lose the entire moral justification. Do you mean to say that the polls count more than something they claim to be murder? Shocking.
By the polls I mean they will have more support if they make an exception for rape. Doesn't mean they believe it to be right but better to save some lives than none.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2017, 06:53:48 PM
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?

You can make an argument that the woman should not have to suffer significant emotional pain through no fault of her own. Like an emotional Rodef? (Obviously not talking from a Jewish POV)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 06:55:49 PM
You can make an argument that the woman should not have to suffer significant emotional pain through no fault of her own. Like an emotional Rodef? (Obviously not talking from a Jewish POV)
To commit murder?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2017, 06:58:48 PM
To commit murder?

Is killing a rodef murder?
Emotional pain can be worse than death.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 07:00:40 PM
Is killing a rodef murder?
Psychological pain can be worse than death.
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 07:01:34 PM
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?
:-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2017, 07:08:04 PM
Well, Trump is causing psychological pain too. Should we kill him?

So liberals are equal to rape victims?
Explains all the incessant screeching.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 07:09:27 PM
So liberals are equal to rape victims?
Explains all the incessant screeching.
Where will you draw the line of which innocent person should be killed? What about a baby which was born from a rape?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: chinagel on November 09, 2017, 07:11:32 PM
Where will you draw the line of which innocent person should be killed? What about a baby which was born from a rape?
or all down syndrome fetuses
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 07:12:15 PM
or all down syndrome fetuses
Or 6 month old babies.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: yuneeq on November 09, 2017, 07:14:10 PM
Where will you draw the line of which innocent person should be killed? What about a baby which was born from a rape?

I draw the line by Torah values.
What would I answer hypothetically for the politicians?
Probably at the point where the baby has brain activity.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 07:15:28 PM
I draw the line by Torah values.
What would I answer hypothetically for the politicians?
Probably at the point where the baby has brain activity.
For someone who believes that from conception is already murder what is the significance of that line?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: henche on November 09, 2017, 07:40:55 PM
According to this the Nazis weren't murderers.

Is that so troubling that the nazis weren't guilty of a particular common law crime ? There are a lot of crimes the nazis didn't do.  In a lot of countries. 
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 09, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
-1 fetus is attached to the mother and is living only through her. Nothing to do with life and it being a human being.

Proof is that there are many totally non-viable fetuses that "live" and swim around in the womb.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 08:36:59 PM
fetus is attached to the mother and is living only through her.
At what point is this not true?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 09, 2017, 08:43:08 PM
At what point is this not true?
When it breaths on it's own independently.

I'm not posting an actual opinion on abortion. Was just responding to his post..
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 08:45:18 PM
When it breaths on it's own independently.
How do we know when that is? Is there any way to really know?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 08:59:00 PM
How do we know when that is? Is there any way to really know?
It can't breathe until it is born
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 09, 2017, 09:00:32 PM
How do we know when that is? Is there any way to really know?
Pretty obvious. Can tell by color of the lips and skin. If a baby is blue it means not breathing well on its own.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 09:03:20 PM
It can't breathe until it is born
That's not what I asked.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 09:04:37 PM
That's not what I asked.
He did not write about abilityand neither did you, so what did you ask?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 09:05:09 PM
Pretty obvious. Can tell by color of the lips and skin. If a baby is blue it means not breathing well on its own.
What if a fetus is aborted at 6 months (just picked a number). How would you know if it could breath on its own?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 09:06:38 PM
He did not write about ability.
He is very capable of answering on his own.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 09:09:34 PM
He is very capable of answering on his own.
What does he need to answer?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 09, 2017, 09:10:53 PM
What does he need to answer?
It would be a lot easier without you jumping in.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 09:18:12 PM
It would be a lot easier without you jumping in.
Me jumping in? I was here first?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: good sam on November 09, 2017, 09:46:11 PM
What about the possibility that it's not murder, but it's something else. Never hear that from any side, only the torah.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: HBS on November 09, 2017, 11:06:29 PM
If it is murder then it makes no difference if the baby is from a rape etc. If it is not then it makes no difference if it isn't. Why do some politicians make that distinction?
It's equivocating.
Politicians do it all the time. The rape exception arose because in the political discourse, right wing Christians felt that they had to give in to that exception, even though they believe that in the case of rape, or even in the case where a mother's life is in danger, the unborn baby's life comes first.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 11:46:48 PM
It's equivocating.
Politicians do it all the time. The rape exception arose because in the political discourse, right wing Christians felt that they had to give in to that exception, even though they believe that in the case of rape, or even in the case where a mother's life is in danger, the unborn baby's life comes first.
Then they twist themselves into pretzels saying stupidities like claiming the woman can shut the system down when needed and the like.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on November 09, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
What about the possibility that it's not murder, but it's something else. Never hear that from any side, only the torah.
If it isn't murder isn't it automatically something else?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: good sam on November 10, 2017, 07:42:26 AM
If it isn't murder isn't it automatically something else?
Yes it's abortion. But you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: churnbabychurn on November 10, 2017, 07:59:52 AM
What if a fetus is aborted at 6 months (just picked a number). How would you know if it could breath on its own?
All I said was in response to a post that said: "just look at the sonogram, it's alive"
That is a false proof. There are fetuses missing vital organs who look just dandy in the womb. This is because life is sustained by the mother.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 11:37:50 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: hvaces42 on May 15, 2019, 11:59:28 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Right so when a woman gets raped and shes in no danger...

And every other scenario where Rabbanim are matir...

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2019, 12:09:18 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Bernie has a SCOTUS ruling on his side you know.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 15, 2019, 12:12:20 PM
Right so when a woman gets raped and shes in no danger...
  This bill bans morning after?

Quote
And every other scenario where Rabbanim are matir...

G-d decides when life begins. Halacha is informed by the word of G-d. It can morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.  Secular law makes no such claim to a divine source.  It can not morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus. 
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 15, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
Bernie has a SCOTUS ruling on his side you know.

That was a pretty crazy SCOTUS.  ;D
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 12:44:22 PM
Arguments libs use to defend baby slaying are mind-numbing:

Rep. John Rogers of Birmingham, AL

"Some kids are unwanted, so you kill them now or you kill them later. You bring them in the world unwanted, unloved, you send them to the electric chair. So, you kill them now or you kill them later"

Clearly, this dem agrees that abortion = murder. And if you listen to other libs, it's clear that many are of the same opinion.

But John holds that since the mother wants to slay her infant, then if she can't, the baby won't get enough love anyhow and will probably get the electric chair.

Scary.

First off, very few people receive the death penalty even in a state that allows it, so the odds are stacked against it. But anyhow, can we shoot a kid that doesn't have a loving parent?

Other genius arguments are along the lines of, "do you know how hard it is to carry a baby?"

In other words, it may well be manslaughter but vacuuming out the baby is OK because it's really hard to hold that baby for nine months.

Wow.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2019, 01:10:29 PM
So he just said that every woman who wants an abortion doesn’t know how to love a child & would raise them so bad that they would end up committing the most violent crimes imaginable.
Now how would liberals react had a republican said the exact same thing ?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 01:20:16 PM
So he just said that every woman who wants an abortion doesn’t know how to love a child & would raise them so bad that they would end up committing the most violent crimes imaginable.
Now how would liberals react had a republican said the exact same thing ?

Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2019, 01:22:03 PM
Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
The fringe left are pro-murder. Period. The-not-so-fringe left are afraid to speak up
He just destroyed every woman who wants an abortion.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 02:15:32 PM
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2019, 02:22:33 PM
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 02:23:23 PM
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 02:28:09 PM
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.
Who's to say that other states wouldn't follow?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 02:29:06 PM
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: ADG on May 15, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).

That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 02:42:39 PM
That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....

An accidental murderer goes to an Ir Miklat. An accidental aborter pays a fine.

Either way, a good primer on the Sugya: https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Abortion-Pro-life-or-pro-choice-564557
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 03:08:04 PM
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder

You are stating as fact something that is very much in dispute.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
You are stating as fact something that is very much in dispute.

This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם

As are you: 1. That it is murder. 2. That it is murder for non-Jews 3. That we have a responsibility to ensure that non-Jews keep Mitzvos when it's not a Halachic government.

I rephase my comment: "Abortion is not necessarily murder, and certainly has more Heterim attached than actual murder does."
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of abortions performed in the 50 states are not due to any medical danger to the mother.

By the way, it's interesting to note that before the giving of the Torah, Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill the Jewish male infants while the mother was on the birth stool. Of-course they risked their lives and refused to do it. Isn't that late stage abortion?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 03:30:14 PM
As are you: 1. That it is murder. 2. That it is murder for non-Jews 3. That we have a responsibility to ensure that non-Jews keep Mitzvos when it's not a Halachic government.

I rephase my comment: "Abortion is not necessarily murder, and certainly has more Heterim attached than actual murder does."
You can forget about the whole non-Jewish argument because regardless there are non-religious Jewish women that will get an abortion as quickly as anyone else.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 03:35:06 PM
You can forget about the whole non-Jewish argument because regardless there are non-religious Jewish women that will get an abortion as quickly as anyone else.

Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: sky121 on May 15, 2019, 03:37:08 PM
Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?

Interesting question. While my first reaction as to an answer is that because abortion affects someone else as well, not just the one doing it.

But it's definitely an interesting question and I'm curious to hear others answers as well.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 03:42:43 PM
https://agudathisrael.org/weighs-in-on-ohio-abortion-bill/

Agudah was against a very similar law in Ohio a. They also are against the NYC bill that essentially allows abortion on demand. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1670965/agudath-israel-of-america-releases-statement-on-new-horrific-murderous-abortion-law.html

So there's clearly lots of nuance here.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?
Very basic difference.

There is nothing wrong with non-kosher food. The issue is just that Jews can't eat it. We won't advocate for outlawing something that is fine for humanity because there are Jews that choose to sin.

Banning idol worship would be amazing, but there is no way to do it, so it's a waste of time. RMBM says that atheism is worse than idol-worship, so if you could convince people to believe, you would be doing a tremendous thing.

Abortion is a horrible thing for all humanity and many want it outlawed so there is a legal path that is worth advocting for.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 04:00:34 PM
https://agudathisrael.org/weighs-in-on-ohio-abortion-bill/

Agudah was against a very similar law in Ohio a. They also are against the NYC bill that essentially allows abortion on demand. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1670965/agudath-israel-of-america-releases-statement-on-new-horrific-murderous-abortion-law.html

So there's clearly lots of nuance here.
So the Agudah advocates for an amendment where "in those extreme circumstances where the law is in conflict with a woman’s sincerely held religious beliefs" that she should be able to exercise here right. Let's say there is a severe medical issue and halacha views the child as a rodef R"L, then that woman should be able to invoke her rights.

That has nothing to do with the general advocation for an anti-abortion bill.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 04:03:46 PM
So the Agudah advocates for an amendment where "in those extreme circumstances where the law is in conflict with a woman’s sincerely held religious beliefs" that she should be able to exercise here right. Let's say there is a severe medical issue and halacha views the child as a rodef R"L, then that woman should be able to invoke her rights.

That has nothing to do with the general advocation for an anti-abortion bill.

How does a secular government decide when a religious exemption is justified and when it's not?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2019, 04:22:20 PM
Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?
1 big difference is if you choose to eat treif or intermarry, it’s your choice & it’s only between you & g-d. Whereas abortion there’s a 3rd party being killed without getting any say. Most would choose NO no doubt.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 04:24:53 PM
How does a secular government decide when a religious exemption is justified and when it's not?

I don't know what metric they would use, but certainly what you wrote below is very exaggerated:

The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.

They are not against strict anti-abortion laws. They just want an amendment for halachic cases in extreme circumstances like if the mother's life is endangered.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 04:32:58 PM
I don't know what metric they would use, but certainly what you wrote below is very exaggerated:

They are not against strict anti-abortion laws. They just want an amendment for halachic cases in extreme circumstances like if the mother's life is endangered.

Let's say someone has a "closely held religious belief" that an abortion is OK if the mother will suffer anxiety, depression, morning sickness etc. Does the government carve out religious exemptions for them? Having religious exemptions to abortion laws will end up either favoring some religions over others, or will end up creating such a big loophole that anyone can join the Church of Satan and be allowed to get an abortion for any reason.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 04:51:30 PM
Let's say someone has a "closely held religious belief" that an abortion is OK if the mother will suffer anxiety, depression, morning sickness etc. Does the government carve out religious exemptions for them? Having religious exemptions to abortion laws will end up either favoring some religions over others, or will end up creating such a big loophole that anyone can join the Church of Satan and be allowed to get an abortion for any reason.
Perhaps the rare case of a woman who is really in danger is so vital that it deserves an amendment regardless of the points you raise. But remember that if something seems off, like if a woman claims a religious exemption due to morning sickness, the state can step in and argue that it isn't a valid use of the amendment.

But don't lose sight of the forest because of the trees. If your overall point is that because such an amendment has naunce, therefore we shouldn't try to outlaw abortion in the first place...well that would be really sad.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 04:57:53 PM
Perhaps the rare case of a woman who is really in danger is so vital that it deserves an amendment regardless of the points you raise. But remember that if something seems off, like if a woman claims a religious exemption due to morning sickness, the state can step in and argue that it isn't a valid use of the amendment.

But don't lose sight of the forest because of the trees. If your overall point is that because such an amendment has naunce, therefore we shouldn't try to outlaw abortion in the first place...well that would be really sad.
What gives the state the right to say that one execption is valid and another is not? Wouldn't that violate the establishment clause of the constitution?

The problem with encouraging the government to pass laws based on religious motivations is that not all religions share the same motivations.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2019, 04:58:14 PM
By the way, it's interesting to note that before the giving of the Torah, Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill the Jewish male infants while the mother was on the birth stool. Of-course they risked their lives and refused to do it. Isn't that late stage abortion?
Ummm no. If they already saw the gender of the baby then it would be post live birth.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:00:25 PM
The problem with encouraging the government to pass laws based on religious motivations is that not all religions share the same motivations.
Well, we are Orthodox Jews, and we strongly believe that we got it right so we will advocate based on the religious motivations as set forth in halacha.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:06:15 PM
Well, we are Orthodox Jews, and we strongly believe that we got it right so we will advocate based on the religious motivations as set forth in halacha.
Well I hope you would never advocate a religious rights suit if in a different case a different religion wins out.

Part of living in a democracy with religious freedom means believing that all religions are treated equally by the government.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:07:18 PM
Ummm no. If they already saw the gender of the baby then it would be post live birth.
And aborting a fetus against the mother's will is wrong anyhow.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Ummm no. If they already saw the gender of the baby then it would be post live birth.
See the Ohr Hachaim (shmos 1:16). He states clearly that this is a case of late-stage abortion, otherwise, the mothers would know what the midwives were doing. He proves further from Midrash that states that Pharaoh gave the midwives signs to know prior to birth if the child will be a boy or girl.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:17:20 PM
Furthermore, if you actually believe that abortion=murder, then you wouldn't care about a religious exception, as it is well understood that we don't allow a religious exemption to allow murder, even if a religion had a sincerely held religious belief for child sacrifice.

As for the argument that abortion is worse than other things since it  affects a 3rd party, why should the government allow a religious exception if it means killing a 3rd party who possibly doesn't share those religious beliefs? We would never allow a religious exception to anything else if it meant harming a 3rd party.

Bottom line, I don't know of a way to craft a logical and consistent argument to simultaneously say that abortion should be so heavily restricted because it is murder, but that there should be religious exceptions in some cases.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:22:11 PM
Well I hope you would never advocate a religious rights suit if in a different case a different religion wins out.

Part of living in a democracy with religious freedom means believing that all religions are treated equally by the government.

If we live in a democracy where all religions are treated equally, no one has a problem believing that, since that is the reality. The question is what our approach should be.

If in a democracy everyone has free rights to live with any willing adult, does that make it OK? A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth.

Actually, because we live in a democracy, therefore we also have a right to advocate for our rights (surprising, isn't it?). And we are convinced that we got it right. So we have no problem pushing for an amendment based on halacha.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: TimT on May 15, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Are there religous exemptions other than physical danger to mother or child ?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:25:08 PM
If we live in a democracy where all religions are treated equally, no one has a problem believing that, since that is the reality. The question is what our approach should be.

If in a democracy everyone has free rights to live with any willing adult, does that make it OK? A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth.

Actually, because we live in a democracy, therefore we also have a right to advocate for our rights (surprising, isn't it?). And we are convinced that we got it right. So we have no problem pushing for an amendment based on halacha.
Advocate for beliefs, sure. Don't advocate for religious exceptions that suit your needs only and not others, othweise it sets a precedent that the government can favor 1 religion over another and that's a dangerous path to go down.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:25:46 PM
Are there religous exemptions other than physical danger to mother or child ?
Birth defects, or mental health issues for starters.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:29:01 PM
Furthermore, if you actually believe that abortion=murder, then you wouldn't care about a religious exception, as it is well understood that we don't allow a religious exemption to allow murder, even if a religion had a sincerely held religious belief for child sacrifice.

Wrong. If someone tries killing you, you are commanded to fight back with everything you have. If a woman's life is in danger, the child is viewed as trying to kill the mother (not in a bad way, in a legal sense). So now it's a question of which one makes it since unfortunately both lives are in jeopardy. In fact, it is only because it is a case of murder that we employ such a serious step.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
Wrong. If someone tries killing you, you are commanded to fight back with everything you have. If a woman's life is in danger, the child is viewed as trying to kill the mother (not in a bad way, in a legal sense). So now it's a question of which one makes it since unfortunately both lives are in jeopardy. In fact, it is only because it is a case of murder that we employ such a serious step.
There have been major poskim who have allowed abortion under circumstances other than the death of the mother. Is that the only exception you are seeking?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Bottom line, I don't know of a way to craft a logical and consistent argument to simultaneously say that abortion should be so heavily restricted because it is murder, but that there should be religious exceptions in some cases.
OK, so you don't. This is a great example of asking a great Torah scholar how to proceed.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 05:40:33 PM
OK, so you don't. This is a great example of asking a great Torah scholar how to proceed.

Or a US legal expert. Since neither of us (presumably) are Alabama legislators, and our support is therefore meaningless, trying to debate on DDF is purely extracurricular. Should an issue come up as a ballot referendum i, that's a different story. The issue with these bills is the right wing position is based on Christian ideals, the left wing position is based on secular values, and the frum position is somewhere between them.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:49:09 PM
Advocate for beliefs, sure. Don't advocate for religious exceptions that suit your needs only and not others, othweise it sets a precedent that the government can favor 1 religion over another and that's a dangerous path to go down.
I don't know why you view the request for a religious amendment to be a bad thing. We are advocating for people in extreme cases under dire circumstances to be able to avail themselves to an exception based on a legitimate halachic ruling. That's what a political organization does. It advocates for its constituency.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 05:56:20 PM
Or a US legal expert. Since neither of us (presumably) are Alabama legislators, and our support is therefore meaningless, trying to debate on DDF is purely extracurricular. Should an issue come up as a ballot referendum i, that's a different story. The issue with these bills is the right wing position is based on Christian ideals, the left wing position is based on secular values, and the frum position is somewhere between them.
Our discussion is purely extracurricular but as far as positions on issues go, legitimate Jews look toward the opinion of those most knowledgable in Torah, not lawyers and legal experts. We go to lawyers to help us navigate the law, not for opinions on life issues. 
Title: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:00:15 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
First it's this because it's "immoral" and then it's milah because it's also "immoral" and then shchita, etc... Remember that these beliefs about abortion come from the catholics, not us. Idk why frum Jews are advocates of government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:01:34 PM
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם
Not our job, not our responsibility. Even if it were, it's not our country or our government.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:09:50 PM
First it's this because it's "immoral" and then it's milah because it's also "immoral" and then shchita, etc... Remember that these beliefs about abortion come from the catholics, not us. Idk why frum Jews are advocates of government telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Because frum Jews consider G-d's word to be final they advocate for that which G-d wants. We are advocates for governments telling people what they should not do with their bodies. We would be delighted if a government said that one may not use their body to violate the command of "thou shall not commit adultery" or "thou shall not kill" or "thou shall not steal".
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:12:31 PM
Because frum Jews consider G-d's word to be final they advocate for that which G-d wants. We are advocates for governments telling people what they should not do with their bodies. We would be delighted if a government said that one may not use their body to violate the command of "thou shall not commit adultery" or "thou shall not kill" or "thou shall not steal".
And what about when the government decides that we shouldn't be allowed to circumcise people before they're 18? Besides for the fact that you're completely making this up that we would want the American government to tell people that they can't commit adultery, the other two are already illegal...
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 06:14:41 PM
The frum position is somewhere between them.

This is where I disagree. True, there are differences between Torah's approach and the right wing approach, however fundamentally they are coming from the same place (putting value on unborn life and according to most poskim regarding [certainly a non-jewish] fetus as a human being.) In other words, the differences are in nuance.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 06:21:15 PM
Not our job, not our responsibility.

Wrong. וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:21:25 PM
This is where I disagree. True, there are differences between Torah's approach and the right wing approach, however fundamentally they are coming from the same place (putting value on unborn life and according to most poskim regarding [certainly a non-jewish] fetus as a human being.) In other words, the differences are in nuance.
The idea that, from conception, a fetus is held on the same status as a live human is not a Torah idea. Besides for the fact that even if it were true that our ideals lined up exactly, why advocate for the government making morality a question of law? It's not the government's job.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
And what about when the government decides that we shouldn't be allowed to circumcise people before they're 18?
Then we would be very sad and try our very best to get it rescinded.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:23:12 PM
Wrong. וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח
Ah, so it's our land with our government with our rulers now?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:24:24 PM
Then we would be very sad and try our very best to get it rescinded.
But why give our government the ability to do that to begin with? It's our job to make sure that the goyim do as few "immoral" things as possible?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 06:28:06 PM
Ah, so it's our land with our government with our rulers now?

You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 06:30:13 PM
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
If we support chiristans trying to establish religion around us, pretty soon, being frum will be illegal.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:30:38 PM
why advocate for the government making morality a question of law? It's not the government's job.
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:30:50 PM
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
Yes, we can advocate to have catholic ideals enshrined in law, that's worked out well for us in the past.
Title: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:33:50 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other. I'm not going to have a debate here about democratic political theory but not all things are equal. Remember that it's the catholics who came up with this, not us. Especially when you bring in something like the death penalty in the case of Georgia, Idk how you don't see this entire thing as clearly a Christian religious agenda which should have no place in government even if it is "morally" better for people to be doing or avoiding something.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:37:01 PM
But why give our government the ability to do that to begin with? It's our job to make sure that the goyim do as few "immoral" things as possible?

So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:42:44 PM
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other.
I am saying that there is an ethical and moral responsibility for the government to enforce the law and that murdering or stealing from your neighbor is ethically and morally wrong.

My Google search says that "moral" means, concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
 Judaism firmly believes that there are absolute right/good and wrong/bad standards.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 15, 2019, 06:43:53 PM
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?

Because those poskim consider mental health to be considered סכנת אבר.

Also, something can be immoral in some circumstances, and a mitzvah in others.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 06:51:58 PM
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion. Rabbi Waldenberg disagrees and rules that when the resulting child’s deformity will cause stress that the parents will not be able to handle, it is permitted to abort. Rabbi waldenberg says “ there is no greater pain than to have a child that will die and there is nothing you can do to fix it.” For most types of deformities, Rabbi Waldenberg permits abortion only until 3 months. If the child has Tay Sachs he allows abortions even up until 7 months.[17]
An issue can also arise when the fetus in question would be born a Mamzer, a child from an illegitimate sexual relationship. Because of the adulterous affair the woman is deserving of the death penalty. Since the fetus is a part of the mother, and not it’s own entity, it too is technically liable for the death penalty and one can therefore, according to Rav Yaakov Emden, abort it. [18]
A question arises if the mother will experience severe mental distress if the baby is born. Rabbi Waldenberg holds that abortion is not murder at all, and that mental distress can be equated with physical pain. Therefore, abortion would be allowed if one’s rabbi determines that the mental stress is the same as the physical would be. [19] Rabbi Unterman takes a similar approach to the issue. Rabbi Unterman does believe that abortion is considered akin to murder, and therefore cannot be allowed in cases of mental anguish. However, if the psychological distress that the mother would feel would cause suicidal tendencies, Rabbi Unterman would permit abortion. [20]

https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Abortion
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 06:57:26 PM
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion.
Thanks for a source for the majority opinion.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 06:58:53 PM
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 07:04:58 PM
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:06:29 PM
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:08:12 PM
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:09:07 PM
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
Ah, so socialist.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:10:51 PM
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:12:19 PM
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:15:44 PM
Ah, so socialist.
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 07:16:19 PM
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:16:23 PM
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
Tell it to the nazis.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:19:02 PM
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)
I'm not exactly sure where we disagree. I'll only add that when the government tries to differentiate between certain cases and when a religious exception should apply, they generally do a bad job and there's no guarantee that it will come out in a way that's favorable for us. Much better to not get into the mess to begin with.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:22:26 PM
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:24:00 PM
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
Tell it to the nazis.
I should tell them that they shouldn't gas the Jewish people?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 15, 2019, 07:25:30 PM
I should tell them that they shouldn't gas the Jewish people?
I'm done
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 15, 2019, 07:27:51 PM
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
You are the one who made a sweeping statement of how the government, in general, has no right to interfere with how you live your life and should leave baby slaying alone. Wrong regarding American government or any government. Wrong regarding sanhedrin. Wrong regarding G-d
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 15, 2019, 07:37:08 PM
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
Ah yes, the Alabama government is the same as the sanhedrin. Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: as2 on May 15, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
Did this thread just suddenly go to the crapper? Wow.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: aygart on May 15, 2019, 09:35:26 PM
Did this thread just suddenly go to the crapper? Wow.
Amazing. Who would have thought that?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: doodle on May 15, 2019, 11:35:57 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Beautiful !!!!!
It’s a victory for good people everywhere !!
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 16, 2019, 03:18:48 AM
Amazing. Who would have thought that?
You're welcome
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 07:17:33 AM
The Alabama law doesn't have a carve out for rape cases. That jives with a Halachic worldview?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 07:43:31 AM
The Alabama law doesn't have a carve out for rape cases. That jives with a Halachic worldview?


  This bill bans morning after?

G-d decides when life begins. Halacha is informed by the word of G-d. It can morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.  Secular law makes no such claim to a divine source.  It can not morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 07:46:28 AM

I've answered this claim 8 times.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 07:49:01 AM


Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 07:49:25 AM
I've answered this claim 8 times.
Link?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 07:51:31 AM


I'm not sure what your position is.  Is it that frum Jews should not be happy with the Alabama law because it restricts abortions that halacha may allow?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 07:55:06 AM
I'm not sure what your position is.  Is it that Frum Jews should not be happy with the Alabama law because it restricts abortions that halacha may allow?
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.

I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 16, 2019, 07:57:01 AM
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.

I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.
Very well said.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 08:10:43 AM
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.
I agree that religious exemptions are not feasible. Never-the-less there are a number of reasons your concerns don't concern me.

1.  According to news reports this bill was designed to be in maximum conflict with Roe in order to maximize chances of reaching SCOTUS and it is highly unlikely that it will ever be implemented as written.
2.  Even if the bill as written prevails in SCOTUS, it is highly unlikely that SCOTUS will endorse the bill's definition of person-hood making abortion illegal on a Constitutional level.  Abortions will still be available on demand in NY and CA and many states in between.  It is difficult to imagine a case where the mothers health exemption is not triggered and travel out of state is not possible.
3. We benefit greatly from living in a moral society and it is in our interest to see society maintain it's morality even if that comes at a cost.  Under secular law a rape exemption is morally indefensible. 

Quote
I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.
We are pretty much in agreement on this.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 08:18:28 AM
I agree that religious exemptions are not feasible. Never-the-less there are a number of reasons your concerns don't concern me.

1.  According to news reports this bill was designed to be in maximum conflict with Roe in order to maximize chances of reaching SCOTUS and it is highly unlikely that it will ever be implemented as written.
2.  Even if the bill as written prevails in SCOTUS, it is highly unlikely that SCOTUS will endorse the bill's definition of person-hood making abortion illegal on a Constitutional level.  Abortions will still be available on demand in NY and CA and many states in between.  It is difficult to imagine a case where the mothers health exemption is not triggered and travel out of state is not possible.
3. We benefit greatly from living in a moral society and it is in our interest to see society maintain it's morality even if that comes at a cost.  Under secular law a rape exemption is morally indefensible. 
 We are pretty much in agreement on this.
A rape exception makes sense if you bele8ve that while a fetus is important, the civil rights of a fetus are lower than the rights of the mother.

So if there's no significant harm to the mother by carrying the fetus, the default is that the fetus has rights, and therefore, no abortion. In the case of rape, I presume that there is a huge psychological cost to the mother and therefore that gets weighed against the lower civil rights of a fetus.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 08:29:02 AM
A rape exception makes sense if you believe that while a fetus is important, the civil rights of a fetus are lower than the rights of the mother.

So if there's no significant harm to the mother by carrying the fetus, the default is that the fetus has rights, and therefore, no abortion. In the case of rape, I presume that there is a huge psychological cost to the mother and therefore that gets weighed against the lower civil rights of a fetus.
So you agree with points 1 and 2?

From a secular point of view, it is difficult for me to see why a fetus should have less rights than the mother. What about at 39 weeks?

And even if you can get around that, we're talking about killing the fetus. So even if the fetus' rights yield to the mother's to what extent? Prisoners lose some of their rights. Does that mean we can kill them if their existence causes a non prisoner huge psychological harm? 
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 08:39:03 AM
I agree that the bil is mostly theatrics but it's also not impossible for most of it to go into effect.

I don't buy into the idea that 1 state can have a radical abortion law because another state has a radically permissive law. I would like all states to have laws that make abortions safe, but rare.

I'm not sure why you think secular law has to beleive a fetus is the same as a person and not the extention of the mother, albeit with some limited personhood status.

We do put prisoners to death when they do things that caused enough harm.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 08:49:28 AM
I agree that the bil is mostly theatrics but it's also not impossible for most of it to go into effect.

I don't buy into the idea that 1 state can have a radical abortion law because another state has a radically permissive law. I would like all states to have laws that make abortions safe, but rare.

I'm not sure why you think secular law has to beleive a fetus is the se as a person and not the extention of the mother, albeit with some limited personhood status.

We do put prisoners to death when they do things that caused enough harm.

I'm not saying I think this is an ideal situation, I'm just saying I don't think the Alabama law is cause to worry and in general is a positive development.

It is genetically unique from the mother and will become a person with out any further intervention. I don't think science justifies a distinction between helpless and dependent on the mother inside the womb and helpless and dependent on the mother outside the womb.

We put prisoners to death as punishment for bad things that they did that they shouldn't have done. A fetus who is the result of a rape did not do anything wrong.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 08:57:17 AM
I'm not saying I think this is an ideal situation, I'm just saying I don't think the Alabama law is cause to worry and in general is a positive development.

It is genetically unique from the mother and will become a person with out any further intervention. I don't think science justifies a distinction between helpless and dependent on the mother inside the womb and helpless and dependent on the mother outside the womb.

We put prisoners to death as punishment for bad things that they did that they shouldn't have done. A fetus who is the result of a rape did not do anything wrong.
I wouldn't support a law in Alabama that I wouldn't want where I live.

I think there is plenty of groundwork laid out in a Halachic framework that a fetus (especially before 40 days) isn't a full fledged
 person, and that genetic material isn't the same as a person, especially at a time when we're labor to occur, there is a 0% chance of viability. That a secular person subscribes to the same flow of logic isn't necessarily wrong.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 09:39:34 AM
I wouldn't support a law in Alabama that I wouldn't want where I live.

I think there is plenty of groundwork laid out in a Halachic framework that a fetus (especially before 40 days) isn't a full fledged
 person, and that genetic material isn't the same as a person, especially at a time when we're labor to occur, there is a 0% chance of viability. That a secular person subscribes to the same flow of logic isn't necessarily wrong.
If it were the AL law or the NY law I'd choose the AL law. That's where we differ.  Of course I'd prefer a law that says exactly what halacha says.

The halachik framework is not a flow of logic but rather Torah sources.  A secular system that does not recognize the Torah as a legal authority with have a hard time using it to determine the law.  I can't imagine the law would have been better received on the left if it had a rape exemption for 40 days. 
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Yonah on May 16, 2019, 09:42:32 AM

A fetus who is the result of a rape did not do anything wrong.

I didn't want to wade into this controversy, but this comment royally ticked me off. The real person who did nothing wrong - the RAPE VICTIM!!!!!

Interestingly enough, when a woman gives birth, she needs to go to shul to bentch gomel - why? Because she's entered a life-threatening situation.

So essentially, a fetus, who isn't viable outside the womb, who isn't guaranteed to be a viable child (and even if s/he was born and we killed them we wouldn't be liable for their death al pi halacha until they were a month old) that was created by someone's ILLEGAL action - has more rights than a woman who is required by law to continue to put her own life in danger for a situation that was caused by a crime?

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 09:43:33 AM
If it were the AL law or the NY law I'd choose the AL law. That's where we differ.  Of course I'd prefer a law that says exactly what halacha says.

The halachik framework is not a flow of logic but rather Torah sources.  A secular system that does not recognize the Torah as a legal authority with have a hard time using it to determine the law.  I can't imagine the law would have been better received on the left if it had a rape exemption for 40 days.
That's where I disagree. I think Halachic sources support a unique status to a fetus that makes it neither correct to call it a person or a limb of the mother. Secular logic figured this out as well, hence the term fetus.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Boruch999 on May 16, 2019, 09:56:45 AM
I didn't want to wade into this controversy, but this comment royally ticked me off. The real person who did nothing wrong - the RAPE VICTIM!!!!!

Interestingly enough, when a woman gives birth, she needs to go to shul to bentch gomel - why? Because she's entered a life-threatening situation.

So essentially, a fetus, who isn't viable outside the womb, who isn't guaranteed to be a viable child (and even if s/he was born and we killed them we wouldn't be liable for their death al pi halacha until they were a month old) that was created by someone's ILLEGAL action - has more rights than a woman who is required by law to continue to put her own life in danger for a situation that was caused by a crime?

Sheesh.  The comment that royally ticked you off is a fact and it was said in context of differentiating a fetus from a criminal sentenced to death.  Nowhere did I say or imply that the rape victim did anything wrong.

There are multiple places where your logic escapes me.  Do you really think US law should consider every child birth as putting the mothers life in danger when considering whether abortion should be permitted?  Do you really think US law should consider the murder of babies less than a month old as less severe than the murder of a baby older than a month?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: doodle on May 16, 2019, 10:30:41 AM
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.

I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.
You are Terribly small minded.
Try to see a world view from a Jewish perspective, instead of just hiding.
Meeting some Good Chabad People May help you !
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 10:39:30 AM
You are Terribly small minded.
Try to see a world view from a Jewish perspective, instead of just hiding.
Meeting some Good Chabad People May help you !
I've literally been arguing for a position that the Alabama law is agaisnt Halacha.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 16, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
I've literally been arguing for a position that the Alabama law is agaisnt Halacha.
You can argue as much as you like, but as far as Halacha goes it's irrelevant. The mainstream, majority opinion in Jewish Law, which includes Rav Moshe Feinstein, is that abortion is murder.
לברר שהריגת עובר אסורה באסור רציחה בין בעכו“ם
בין בישראל... ולכן לדינא... איכא איסור רציחה מלא
תרצח גם על עובר ורק שפטור ההורגו ממיתה.

Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 11:42:24 AM
You can argue as much as you like, but as far as Halacha goes it's irrelevant. The mainstream, majority opinion in Jewish Law, which includes Rav Moshe Feinstein, is that abortion is murder.
לברר שהריגת עובר אסורה באסור רציחה בין בעכו“ם
בין בישראל... ולכן לדינא... איכא איסור רציחה מלא
תרצח גם על עובר ורק שפטור ההורגו ממיתה.
The tzeiz Eliezer disagrees, and that position has been used to be matir in cases of significant hardship. Not allowing people the opportunity to have a discussion with their rabbonim is wrong, especially given that there is debate on the issue, and anyone who is seriously invested in seeking a heter is probably undergoing some sort of hardship we can't imagine.

I don't believe that laws allowing abortion at any time for any reason are morally right, but my religious worldview stops me from supporting a law that will make it harder for people to follow a Psak, even if the law is in a limited geographic area.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 16, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
The tzeiz Eliezer disagrees, and that position has been used to be matir in cases of significant hardship. Not allowing people the opportunity to have a discussion with their rabbonim is wrong, especially given that there is debate on the issue, and anyone who is seriously invested in seeking a heter is probably undergoing some sort of hardship we can't imagine.
My point was that your personal opinion on what the Halacha should be (as indicated above) is immaterial, not that a halachic expert shouldn't be consulted.




Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: doodle on May 16, 2019, 12:07:27 PM
but my religious worldview stops me from supporting a law that will make it harder for people to follow a Psak, even if the law is in a limited geographic area.
You badly need to increase your wordview. A Jew is supposed to be “A light unto the Nations”
Try to meet some Good and Inspirational Yidden !
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Yonah on May 16, 2019, 12:45:57 PM
Sheesh.  The comment that royally ticked you off is a fact and it was said in context of differentiating a fetus from a criminal sentenced to death.  Nowhere did I say or imply that the rape victim did anything wrong.
Sorry that I pulled it out of context.

There are multiple places where your logic escapes me.  Do you really think US law should consider every child birth as putting the mothers life in danger when considering whether abortion should be permitted?

My logic is this - pregnancy has inherent risks and health problems that come along with it. When someone willingly gets pregnant , she is accepting those risks. When her pregnancy comes about as the victim of a crime - this law forces her to accept all of those risks. The law is essentially asking her to put her health at risk for the sake of a pregnancy which was forced on her as the victim of a crime.

She's also responsible for the consequences as well - any lost time from work, or medical bills - We're doubly victimizing a rape victim.

Quote
Do you really think US law should consider the murder of babies less than a month old as less severe than the murder of a baby older than a month?

My point about a 30 day old baby wasn't to suggest that us law take it into consideration. My point was the extreme as to which halacha doesn't consider a baby to be a 'person' for the purposes of murder. But my real point was that by not having a 'Rape' exemption, we burdening the victim of a crime at the expense of a the rights of a bunch of cells which aren't yet a person. (I am not talking about a late term abortion, because I imagine that a Rape Victim would be at her doctor's the minute she thought she was pregnant).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: mmgfarb on May 16, 2019, 12:48:58 PM
You badly need to increase your wordview. A Jew is supposed to be “A light unto the Nations”
Try to meet some Good and Inspirational Yidden !
You're missing the point so badly that saying he needs to increase his worldview is terribly hypocritical at best and mildly idiotic at worst.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 01:24:17 PM
Sorry that I pulled it out of context.

My logic is this - pregnancy has inherent risks and health problems that come along with it. When someone willingly gets pregnant , she is accepting those risks. When her pregnancy comes about as the victim of a crime - this law forces her to accept all of those risks. The law is essentially asking her to put her health at risk for the sake of a pregnancy which was forced on her as the victim of a crime.

She's also responsible for the consequences as well - any lost time from work, or medical bills - We're doubly victimizing a rape victim.

My point about a 30 day old baby wasn't to suggest that us law take it into consideration. My point was the extreme as to which halacha doesn't consider a baby to be a 'person' for the purposes of murder. But my real point was that by not having a 'Rape' exemption, we burdening the victim of a crime at the expense of a the rights of a bunch of cells which aren't yet a person. (I am not talking about a late term abortion, because I imagine that a Rape Victim would be at her doctor's the minute she thought she was pregnant).
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: doodle on May 16, 2019, 02:05:13 PM
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 02:20:30 PM
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.

Well, here is some of mine:

http://thejewishreview.org/articles/?id=175

You can read the last line: Rabbi Tendler: The impending review ofthis landmark decision reawakened both the ?Pro-life? and ?Pro-choice? forces in society. Surely the Roe v. Wade decision that extended the right to privacy to include the right to abort any time before fetal viability (the end of the second trimester) should be overturned. The ?legalizing? of abortion led, de facto, to condoning abortion as morally acceptable. This was not the intent of the Supreme Court's opinion, but it was, nonetheless, the result. The primacy of maternal life as justifiable reason to abort, must be clearly stated and maintained. However, the ?frivolous? abortion for sex selection of to prevent discomfiture during a planned vacation must be declared illegal. Abortion because of rape, incest, fear of a probably genetic disease, or great familial stress must be left to individual conscience in our pluralistic society, without legal intrusion into the patient-physician relationship.

The article also state in no uncertain terms several times that if we fear suicide, there is an obligation to abort.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Mo2 on May 16, 2019, 02:24:02 PM
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.
+1
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 02:32:14 PM
Well, here is some of mine:

http://thejewishreview.org/articles/?id=175

You can read the last line: Rabbi Tendler: The impending review ofthis landmark decision reawakened both the ?Pro-life? and ?Pro-choice? forces in society. Surely the Roe v. Wade decision that extended the right to privacy to include the right to abort any time before fetal viability (the end of the second trimester) should be overturned. The ?legalizing? of abortion led, de facto, to condoning abortion as morally acceptable. This was not the intent of the Supreme Court's opinion, but it was, nonetheless, the result. The primacy of maternal life as justifiable reason to abort, must be clearly stated and maintained. However, the ?frivolous? abortion for sex selection of to prevent discomfiture during a planned vacation must be declared illegal. Abortion because of rape, incest, fear of a probably genetic disease, or great familial stress must be left to individual conscience in our pluralistic society, without legal intrusion into the patient-physician relationship.

The article also state in no uncertain terms several times that if we fear suicide, there is an obligation to abort.

Also, this tidbit: My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin toexpand its role in this area and start less - lating what is proper to teach and what isproper to do in areligious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government's total involvement in the religious life ofthe Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don't know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don't want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion and Rabbi Feinstein's opinion, but I lean inthe direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.

(same source as above).
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: Shkop on May 16, 2019, 03:33:18 PM
Here are 2 nice Q&A's from R' Avigdor Miller ztl.

https://torasavigdor.org/rav-avigdor-miller-on-separation-of-church-and-state/

https://torasavigdor.org/rav-avigdor-miller-on-joining-the-fight-against-antisemitism/

In the first he discusses separation of church and state. He says that we want religion in politics.
In the second he lambastes Jewish organizations fighting antisemitism that advocate for gays and abortion because everyone should have free rights.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 16, 2019, 05:42:34 PM
Also, this tidbit: My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin toexpand its role in this area and start less - lating what is proper to teach and what isproper to do in areligious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government's total involvement in the religious life ofthe Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don't know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don't want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion and Rabbi Feinstein's opinion, but I lean inthe direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.

(same source as above).

How do either of these quotes support this statement;
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 05:47:15 PM
How do either of these quotes support this statement;
I already quoted a summary of the tzeiz Eliezer above. Do you have a source that abortion is prohibited even in the case of rape?
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 05:49:03 PM
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: gozalim on May 16, 2019, 08:59:17 PM
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.
he actually comes out and says he prefers the government not be in the business of enforcing 7 mitzvos bnei noach
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: doodle on May 16, 2019, 10:09:01 PM
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.
So ... after you read Rav Tendlers opinion , you than decided what every Posek probably holds .
You never even PMd me for source material. .
Good bye !
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 16, 2019, 10:16:01 PM
I already quoted a summary of the tzeiz Eliezer above. Do you have a source that abortion is prohibited even in the case of rape?

אגרות משה חושן משפט חלק ב' סוף ס' עא amongst many others
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: gozalim on May 16, 2019, 10:36:30 PM
I already quoted a summary of the tzeiz Eliezer above. Do you have a source that abortion is prohibited even in the case of rape?
even ben shapiro knows that he's an outlier  ::)
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: shaulyaakov on May 16, 2019, 10:38:08 PM
even ben shapiro knows that he's an outlier  ::)
An outlier Psak that's used in extreme cases, such as rape.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 16, 2019, 10:49:52 PM
אגרות משה חושן משפט חלק ב' סוף ס' עא amongst many others.

Also ס' ס'ט and several others there.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: skyguy918 on May 16, 2019, 11:41:33 PM
Outlier or not, I think it would be a stretch to say that there's an 'accepted' set of psakim/halachos governing all abortion situations. As such, even if one feels that the correct hashkafa is for us as Jews to advocate for what we think is correct in the realm of abortions to be implemented as secular law, there may not be a consensus/accepted set of halachos on the subject to turn into law. These are things that are very much decided on a case by case basis in Judaism, and you're never going to be able to install a system of secular law that would emulate having poskei hador decide such matters.
Title: Re: Abortion = Murder?
Post by: zh cohen on May 17, 2019, 12:30:00 AM
Also ס' ס'ט and several others there.

You can also find R' Moshe's view on permissive abortion laws there